# Pubs we've lost 2014-2015: The Grosvenor, Stockwell and the Canterbury Arms, Brixton



## editor (Dec 1, 2013)

This weekend I visited two venues, neither of which are likely to be around this time next year, and I find that rather sad.

On Friday night, I visited the Canterbury Arms, whose fine Victorian interior is destined to be smashed into a zillion pieces as developers look to profit from its central location and stick up a bland 9 storey block in its place.

On Saturday, I enjoyed a fine fundraising evening at the Grosvenor, another pub on deathwatch.

Although no firm plans have been announced, their purchase by Golfrate and the ongoing construction of a large block of lifestyle apartments directly opposite The Grosvenor makes it almost certain that it can't continue as a venue for lively music nights. 

Even if it does live on as some sort of gastro-pub/wine bar, the bar that I've grown to love has gone forever, and that'll be a real loss to the community given the wide range of events that go on there. 

Sad, isn't it?


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## magneze (Dec 1, 2013)

The Grosvenor? Really?  That's a real shame. It's a great pub.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2013)

editor said:


> This weekend I visited two venues, neither of which are likely to be around this time next year, and I find that rather sad.
> 
> On Friday night, I visited the Canterbury Arms, whose fine Victorian interior is destined to be smashed into a zillion pieces as developers look to profit from its central location and stick up a bland 9 storey block in its place.
> 
> ...


up near where i live, the mitre on downham road had a gorgeous victorian interior, somewhat shabby but nonetheless amazing. then some years ago it was turned into flats and the interior - and pub - lost. even if the canterbury survives, it'd be well worth getting some pictures of the interior - don't leave it, as i did with the mitre, until it's too late.


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## clandestino (Dec 1, 2013)

Very very sad. 

A personal loss for me as I do my club night at the Canterbury Arms and we have our New Year's Eve party at The Grosvenor. I'll miss them both dearly....but it's not over yet! 

Photos of our night on Friday are here, if you fancy taking a look:
http://www.howdoesitfeel.co.uk/nov292013a.html


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## Belushi (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't know the Canterbury Arms but the Grosvenor is a great place.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm writing a longer piece about this for Brixton Buzz, but it's worth noting that it's not Golfrate to blame for the forthcoming changes at the Grosvenor but the gentrification of the area.

There's a big upmarket housing development being built right opposite the venue (and another proposed at the back), and the current landlord is convinced that there is no way his new, well heeled neighbours are going to put up with the noise, so he's getting out before the complaints and hassle start. 

(See: Thinking of moving to vibrant Brixton but want a quiet life? Here. Read this. Thanks.)


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## SarfLondoner (Dec 1, 2013)

Its very sad whats happening to the pubs and clubs in Brixton. The council were happy to issue late licenses(at a huge expense) to these bars which i believe have been used to attract the yuppies and as a selling point to newcomers. Now the gentrifaction is in full swing and money talks, lambeth no longer need the bars/clubs and will drive them out of buisness for more unaffordable housing. It Stinks.


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## leanderman (Dec 1, 2013)

It's another example of why high house prices are bad for just about everyone.

Buildings are now more valuable in residential, rather than commercial, use.

Was surprised recently to see flats going up at 190 The Strand, a former office block.

It's happening all over London, with even foreign states selling off their embassies and moving out.

This art prank sums it up well: 

http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...en-and-dragsets-latest-art-prank-8844641.html


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## SarfLondoner (Dec 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's another example of why high house prices are bad for just about everyone.
> 
> Buildings are now more valuable in residential, rather than commercial, use.
> 
> ...


seeing schools turned into flats is worrying too.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 2, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm writing a longer piece about this for Brixton Buzz, but it's worth noting that it's not Golfrate to blame for the forthcoming changes at the Grosvenor but the gentrification of the area.
> 
> There's a big upmarket housing development being built right opposite the venue (and another proposed at the back), and the current landlord is convinced that there is no way his new, well heeled neighbours are going to put up with the noise, so he's getting out before the complaints and hassle start.


I've had similar conversations with J about this. Didn't realise he was going to pack it in though - will someone else be able to take the lease on?


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## han (Dec 2, 2013)

Depends if it stays a pub... and it wouldn't be the same without J. 

So many people are going to be affected by the closing of the Grosvenor -  the centre of the punk scene in S London and certainly of the folk scene in SW London. 

Gutting. I can understand J's reasons for wanting to move on though - staying is too risky. End on a high, eh? We'll have to give it an amazing send off..... plans are afoot on that front.


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## Mr Retro (Dec 2, 2013)

editor said:


> This weekend I visited two venues, neither of which are likely to be around this time next year ....
> 
> On Friday night, I visited the Canterbury Arms, whose fine Victorian interior is destined to be smashed into a zillion pieces as developers look to profit from its central location and stick up a bland 9 storey block in its place.
> 
> ...



Yes. Sad and a little depressing that another bit of colour will fade out of a great part of London.


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## clandestino (Dec 2, 2013)

han said:


> Depends if it stays a pub... and it wouldn't be the same without J.
> 
> So many people are going to be affected by the closing of the Grosvenor -  the centre of the punk scene in S London and certainly of the folk scene in SW London.
> 
> Gutting. I can understand J's reasons for wanting to move on though - staying is too risky. End on a high, eh? We'll have to give it an amazing send off..... plans are afoot on that front.



Such a fantastic pub, with the kind of spirit that you can't manufacture. I'm very proud to have hosted some nights there.


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## clandestino (Dec 3, 2013)

An excellent piece about a community space in Wapping closing after new arrivals complain about the noise. Wasn't sure where to put it as it's relevant to several threads in the Brixton forum, but here's as good a place as any...

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/wapping-project-house-prices-culture


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## editor (Dec 3, 2013)

Thirty people are likely to lose their jobs because of those cowardly new arrival scum.


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## leanderman (Dec 4, 2013)

clandestino said:


> An excellent piece about a community space in Wapping closing after new arrivals complain about the noise. Wasn't sure where to put it as it's relevant to several threads in the Brixton forum, but here's as good a place as any...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/wapping-project-house-prices-culture



That's shocking. I lived in Wapping for a year, 1999-2000, then nearby, and loved that place.


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## Winot (Dec 4, 2013)

Wanted to go there for ages but never made it. Now it's too late - what a shame. 

I'm sceptical that a few complainants could force the place to close however.


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## boohoo (Dec 4, 2013)

It is very sad to lose the Canterbury arms. Although it'll be sad to lose the Grosvenor as it is, I do hope that it remains a pub. The increase in residents in that area will be huge so spaces like pubs are most welcome.


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## Dan U (Dec 4, 2013)

clandestino said:


> An excellent piece about a community space in Wapping closing after new arrivals complain about the noise. Wasn't sure where to put it as it's relevant to several threads in the Brixton forum, but here's as good a place as any...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/wapping-project-house-prices-culture



I've moved from South London to a village, next to an old church. This is the equivalent of me trying to get the bellringers on a Tuesday night noise abated because they make it hard to get my kid to sleep. or complaining about the parking when a wedding or funeral is on. twats.

sometimes i wish they would learn a new tune, mind.

never been to the Grovesner, which seems a shame in retrospect, always enjoyed nights at the Canterbury.


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## DJWrongspeed (Dec 4, 2013)

I was reading the blurb about the new flats opposite. No mention of the Grovesnor in the publicity surprisingly! Mind you with a 1bed flat costing £313+  and a £110 mth service charge the new residents will certainly be well off.  I wonder if any of them will actually live there to be annoyed with the pub.


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## Plumdaff (Dec 4, 2013)

Losing the Grosvenor would be a huge blow for South London and terrible for Stockwell. One of my all time favourites. Makes me angry that such an important part of the local culture makes way for fucking flats but hey, that's London these days.


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## se5 (Dec 4, 2013)

Is it worth trying to get them listed as Assets of Community Value?

As I understand it whilst this ultimately wont stop them being redeveloped it puts another hurdle  in the way of property developers and gives local people a period of time to come forward with a better plan than closure - theres info on the Camra website http://www.camra.org.uk/listyourlocal


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## editor (Dec 4, 2013)

I've added a new piece on Brixton Buzz about the Grosvenor after talking to the landlord.


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## cuppa tee (Dec 4, 2013)

Depressing times, another thing about the Grosvenor is that it stil has a number of local regulars who use it for a chat and a pint or three and if it changes to cater for a younger, more affluent and trendier clientele they will probably not fit in anymore, I think this type of homogenisation is detrimental to a diverse community. An example I can make is about 18  months back and a family fun day is taking place on mostyn gardens before it was levelled and turned into a development, the day begins with a football tournament for kids and bouncy castles and food stalls are in attendance, later a sound system cranks up, from the distance you can hear bass lines and some toasting, as I pass by a red faced twentysomething  incomer is moving fast towards the party dragging her embarrassed bf along, and then I see them coming back with her cussing " some people are so fuking selfish" when they are a safe distance away out comes a mobile and within minutes there are blue lights sirens and a rapid end to the family fun day, it is 7.30 in the evening, I am struck by the fact that the event was due to end at 8 anyway but her personal mission against "selfish people" ended a party being enjoyed by perhaps 200.


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## clandestino (Dec 4, 2013)

That is so depressing.


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## clandestino (Dec 4, 2013)

Like that piece on Brixton recently, where a new Rushcroft Road resident was asked why they moved to the street and the reply was: "It's near the tube." I was shocked by that. Nothing at all about the area, all that's important is the tube.


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## SarfLondoner (Dec 4, 2013)

clandestino said:


> Like that piece on Brixton recently, where a new Rushcroft Road resident was asked why they moved to the street and the reply was: "It's near the tube." I was shocked by that. Nothing at all about the area, all that's important is the tube.


Translated it means they couldnt afford clapham or dulwich.


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## boohoo (Dec 5, 2013)

I think that would be my partner's answer about where he lives. He always wants to be near a tube (although we don't live anywhere near one at the mo!)


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## leanderman (Dec 5, 2013)

clandestino said:


> Like that piece on Brixton recently, where a new Rushcroft Road resident was asked why they moved to the street and the reply was: "It's near the tube." I was shocked by that. Nothing at all about the area, all that's important is the tube.



How dare someone want to live next to a Tube!


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## cuppa tee (Dec 5, 2013)

leanderman said:


> How dare someone want to live next to a Tube!


I think the quote in Clandestino's post illustrates a bad attitude if that is the main reason for settling in an area because it shows a desire to get in and out of an area as quick and easy as possible
rather than appreciation of the area for what it is.


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## leanderman (Dec 5, 2013)

'Every snipe praises his own bog,' as Khrushchev liked to say.


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## Tankus (Dec 5, 2013)

That would be me.........tubes are great


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## cuppa tee (Dec 5, 2013)

leanderman said:


> 'Every snipe praises his own bog,' as Khrushchev liked to say.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 5, 2013)

se5 said:


> Is it worth trying to get them listed as Assets of Community Value?
> 
> As I understand it whilst this ultimately wont stop them being redeveloped it puts another hurdle  in the way of property developers and gives local people a period of time to come forward with a better plan than closure - theres info on the Camra website http://www.camra.org.uk/listyourlocal


 
There's been talk of it wrt The Canterbury at least on other threads. I think the thing is that it requires a huge amount of commitment to raising money and then ultimately running the pub, and as far as I can tell (although I'd be pleased to be shown to be wrong) that doesn't appear to be there. Maybe the Grosvenor might be different?

I guess you could use it just to try and delay the sale. I'm not sure it's a great idea though - if it's regularly used purely as a stalling tactic I think they'd just repeal the law.


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## DJWrongspeed (Dec 5, 2013)

The Ivy House , Peckham Rye was a pretty unique set of circumstances unfortunately. What the Grovesnor needs is a new landlord who is in sympathy with the place and can make it work albeit with the owners approval.


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## Gramsci (Dec 5, 2013)

clandestino said:


> An excellent piece about a community space in Wapping closing after new arrivals complain about the noise. Wasn't sure where to put it as it's relevant to several threads in the Brixton forum, but here's as good a place as any...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/wapping-project-house-prices-culture


 
You need to read some of the comments. Its not as straightforward issue as the journalist says.


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## clandestino (Dec 5, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> You need to read some of the comments. Its not as straightforward issue as the journalist says.



I have, since posting that. It does seem more nuanced than I first thought.


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## leanderman (Dec 5, 2013)

What we need is pubs where you can go for a drink without quiz nights, jazz, gigs, comedy etc. Hard to find now in Brixton. 

I guess people don't like to talk these days


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## Gramsci (Dec 5, 2013)

clandestino said:


> I have, since posting that. It does seem more nuanced than I first thought.



I was surprised when I started reading some of the comments. 

Seemed to me that the owner wanted to move on and also that some of these buildings in London are now worth big bucks. Which they didn’t years ago. So its must be tempting to sell to a developer. Blaming it on new people complaining about noise was not main issue. 

Like Conway Taverns are doing with the Canterbury Arms. No one is forcing the owners to sell it to a property developer.


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## leanderman (Dec 5, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I was surprised when I started reading some of the comments.
> 
> Seemed to me that the owner wanted to move on and also that some of these buildings in London are now worth big bucks. Which they didn’t years ago. So its must be tempting to sell to a developer. Blaming it on new people complaining about noise was not main issue.
> 
> Like Conway Taverns are doing with the Canterbury Arms. No one is forcing the owners to sell it to a property developer.



It's (short-term) economics


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## Gramsci (Dec 6, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's (short-term) economics



Yes it is. There is a property bubble in London that is getting bigger. If you have a premises that a property developer might be interested in nows the time to sell.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 6, 2013)

leanderman said:


> What we need is pubs where you can go for a drink without quiz nights, jazz, gigs, comedy etc. Hard to find now in Brixton.
> 
> I guess people don't like to talk these days



The Grosvenor and The Canterbury both have areas you can do that in (although the Canterbury does show the football), as well as the music areas.


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## clandestino (Dec 6, 2013)

leanderman said:


> What we need is pubs where you can go for a drink without quiz nights, jazz, gigs, comedy etc. Hard to find now in Brixton.
> 
> I guess people don't like to talk these days



Trinity Arms?
Marquis Of Lorne?
Elm Park Tavern? (apart from on the quiz night, obviously...)
The pubs on New Park Road?


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## han (Dec 6, 2013)

The pubs on New Park Rd are all still proper locals, a dying breed, though give it 10 years and they may be gastropubs :-( 

I wish we had somewhere like the Ivy House in Brixton, owned and run by the community. It's exactly what we need. Anyone got a spare few million quid?


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## Winot (Dec 6, 2013)

clandestino said:


> Trinity Arms?
> Marquis Of Lorne?
> Elm Park Tavern? (apart from on the quiz night, obviously...)
> The pubs on New Park Road?



Trinity and EPT both had quiz nights on last night. Effra Social had a soul funk gig; Effra Tavern its usual jazz. Apparently Electric Social had something on too. 

We ended up in the White Horse, which was standing room only (and barely that) with a DJ spinning the hard disks. Beer was average. Ended up in Mango Landing which was empty, had good music as ever, and where we could talk. 

God I sound old and grumpy. 

Next time we'll try the NPR pubs.


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## Winot (Dec 6, 2013)

han said:


> The pubs on New Park Rd are all still proper locals, a dying breed, though give it 10 years and they may be gastropubs :-(
> 
> I wish we had somewhere like the Ivy House in Brixton, owned and run by the community. It's exactly what we need. Anyone got a spare few million quid?



EPT is probably the closest but then goes and spoils it on a Thu with a quiz.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 6, 2013)

han said:


> The pubs on New Park Rd are all still proper locals, a dying breed, though give it 10 years and they may be gastropubs :-(
> 
> I wish we had somewhere like the Ivy House in Brixton, owned and run by the community. It's exactly what we need. Anyone got a spare few million quid?



The Ivy House share offer actually had a relatively low ceiling for individual purchases to stop anyone like that taking over.


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## secateurz (Dec 6, 2013)

editor said:


> Thirty people are likely to lose their jobs because of those cowardly new arrival scum.



pretty scummy comment yourself there. I am moving out of the area, but reading these boards for 5 years and having to endure this holier than thou, I was here first, I hate gentrification nonsense is something I wont miss.  Gentrification is unstoppable. Change is inevitable.  Deal with it you desperate to be offended hippy that is actually making money off your websites, beers, blogs and the rest.  The hippy doth protest too much.


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## Field Work (Dec 6, 2013)

I've had some of the best nights of my life in the Grosvenor. No joke. Legendary place.


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## han (Dec 6, 2013)

Field Work said:
			
		

> I've had some of the best nights of my life in the Grosvenor. No joke. Legendary place.



Me too. 
Amazing. 
My favourite time was after a really good (folk) session, when this Norwegian Klezmer band turned up at about 1am and we all played tunes together until the wee hours. People were literally dancing on the tables


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## isvicthere? (Dec 6, 2013)

clandestino said:


> Such a fantastic pub, with the kind of spirit that you can't manufacture. I'm very proud to have hosted some nights there.



Ditto.


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## isvicthere? (Dec 6, 2013)

leanderman said:


> What we need is pubs where you can go for a drink without quiz nights, jazz, gigs, comedy etc. Hard to find now in Brixton.
> 
> I guess people don't like to talk these days



Hard to find anywhere now.


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## editor (Dec 6, 2013)

secateurz said:


> Deal with it you desperate to be offended hippy that is actually making money off your websites, beers, blogs and the rest.  The hippy doth protest too much.


The nasty poster doth talk ignorant shite.

FYI: every single  penny of profit raised by the beer goes to the local soup kitchen, and profits from all future batches will continue to go the soup kitchen and other local deserving causes.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 6, 2013)

han said:


> Me too.
> Amazing.
> My favourite time was after a really good (folk) session, when this Norwegian Klezmer band turned up at about 1am and we all played tunes together until the wee hours. People were literally dancing on the tables


we managed to get them to come back the next night around 3am with promises of blue cheese  then sent them to the QH aroun 6ish
I really hope they come back


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## editor (Dec 6, 2013)

The Albert is usually OK for a chat and a drink in the week, There's barely ever any pub  quizzes/bands/art performances or anything else going on from Sunday to Monday, although the music can be noticeably louder later in the evening. 

I imagine the Trinity is the nearest thing to a quiet pub in Brixton, although some of the long term bar-leaning types can get rowdy there.


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## han (Dec 6, 2013)

wemakeyousoundb said:
			
		

> we managed to get them to come back the next night around 3am with promises of blue cheese  then sent them to the QH aroun 6ish
> I really hope they come back



Oh yes, ha, I heard about that! Party animals!


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## Mr Retro (Dec 15, 2013)

We were in The Canterbury yesterday and planning permission for the flats isn't granted or refused so they are still in limbo not knowing what's going to happen.

Also one of the regulars was saying The Beehive in Stockwell is going to be turned into flats. Not sure if that's certain but he was saying its a done deal.


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## boohoo (Dec 15, 2013)

Mr Retro said:


> Also one of the regulars was saying The Beehive in Stockwell is going to be turned into flats. Not sure if that's certain but he was saying its a done deal.


Shit  - sad news. That is a proper little locals pub.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 21, 2013)

Mr Retro said:


> We were in The Canterbury yesterday and planning permission for the flats isn't granted or refused so they are still in limbo not knowing what's going to happen.
> 
> Also one of the regulars was saying The Beehive in Stockwell is going to be turned into flats. Not sure if that's certain but he was saying its a done deal.


Oh no


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## tbtommyb (Dec 22, 2013)

SarfLondoner said:


> Translated it means they couldnt afford clapham or dulwich.


Kennington (or 'Oval' ) is for people like that.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

We're down to the last couple of months before the Grosvenor goes.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

Feature here:

Anti-gentrification movies beamed onto the luxury development that is going to kill the Stockwell Grosvenor







Here's what's coming:






And the website blurb:


> KEEPING IT LOCAL
> 
> Effervescent Brixton offers a thriving social lifestyle. There are a multitude of shops just a 10 minute* walk from the development, ranging from well-known British retail chains to local artisan stores. The stalls of Brixton Market are popular too – full of mouth-watering foods from every corner of the world. There are vintage clothing stores, intriguing bars and clubs, festivals, pop up galleries, street art and more.
> 
> ...


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## cuppa tee (Mar 21, 2014)

> *KEEPING IT LOCAL*



these fuckers have no shame


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## Winot (Mar 21, 2014)

The Brixton Buzz article said:
			
		

> this development of 30 “exclusive apartments” is the very thing that is forcing the Grosvenor out of business


 
What is the connection between the apartments opposite the Grosvenor and the landlord's decision to close the pub?


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

Winot said:


> What is the connection between the apartments opposite the Grosvenor and the landlord's decision to close the pub?


That's explained in the article. There is no way he can continue putting on noisy punk bands and let people use the outside smoking area directly opposite because of the noise complaints he'll get. 

So he's decided to quit before he has to deal with it.


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## Winot (Mar 21, 2014)

editor said:


> That's explained in the article. There is no way he can continue putting on noisy punk bands and let people use the outside smoking area directly opposite because of the noise complaints he'll get.
> 
> So he's decided to quit before he has to deal with it.


 
I understand that, and I am not being an apologist for Golfrate or for complaining NIMBYs, but it is hyperbole to state that the development is "forcing the Grosvenor" out of business when (as far as I understand it) there have been no complaints at all yet.

Your article gives the impression Golfrate has taken positive action which has forced the Grosvenor to close and that is a misrepresentation.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

Winot said:


> I understand that, and I am not being an apologist for Golfrate or for complaining NIMBYs, but it is hyperbole to state that the development is "forcing the Grosvenor" out of business when (as far as I understand it) there have been no complaints at all yet.
> 
> Your article gives the impression Golfrate has taken positive action which has forced the Grosvenor to close and that is a misrepresentation.


Golfrate is converting the flats above the pub into luxury flats. There are luxury flays being erected just metres from the pub's front door. Those two acts mean there is no way the venue can continue as it is, so it will indeed be forced to stop functioning as a live venue. 

If you knew the kind of nights that the pub is famous for, and the kind of clientèle that the pub attracts, you'd understand while the landlord felt he had no other option but to quit rather than see it turned into a hushed parody of itself.


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## DJWrongspeed (Mar 21, 2014)

Are Golfrate going to keep it as a pub,  for a while at least, does anyone know?


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## Winot (Mar 21, 2014)

editor said:


> Golfrate is converting the flats above the pub into luxury flats. There are luxury flays being erected just metres from the pub's front door. Those two acts mean there is no way the venue can continue as it is, so it will indeed be forced to stop functioning as a live venue.
> 
> If you knew the kind of nights that the pub is famous for, and the kind of clientèle that the pub attracts, you'd understand while the landlord felt he had no other option but to quit rather than see it turned into a hushed parody of itself.


 
You may well be correct.  I am not claiming that it would not play out that way.

My problem is with the words you use. Whether you mean to or not, you are misrepresenting the position. What's more, it's unnecessary because it is a strong story without the misrepresentation.

Anyway, I have said my piece, and you can take note or ignore it as you wish.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Are Golfrate going to keep it as a pub,  for a while at least, does anyone know?


No one's actually sure. Whatever happens, it will never be the Grosvenor that we've known and loved for years


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

Winot said:


> My problem is with the words you use. Whether you mean to or not, you are misrepresenting the position..


What do you know about 'the position'? When was the last time you went to the pub, spoke to the landlord or any of the promoters?

The presence of that luxury development means the pub can no longer operate like it has in the past. If you think you know more than the landlord on that score, feel free to go and tell him that he's got it all wrong and he's making a mistake by throwing away all his years of hard work there.


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 21, 2014)

Does anyone know when the grovsners going? I go there often but want to make sure I rally old friend to give it a good send off.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Does anyone know when the grovsners going? I go there often but want to make sure I rally old friend to give it a good send off.


I think there's about two months left. There'll be a big gig or two to mark the end. It's really sad.


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 21, 2014)

It is. It's one of the few remaining places I feel comfortable round here.


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## leanderman (Mar 21, 2014)

I'd imagine that, down the years, the Grosvenor had a variety of identities before its popular 'live' one. Maybe it will manage to forge a new one.


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## cuppa tee (Mar 21, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I'd imagine that, down the years, the Grosvenor had a variety of identities before its popular 'live' one. Maybe it will manage to forge a new one.


I'm sure those words will be a comfort to my many friends who drink there and to myself when it has become a gastropub full of people I have nothing in common with and who are already well catered for in Brixton and surrounds.


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## leanderman (Mar 21, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> I'm sure those words will be a comfort to my many friends who drink there and to myself when it has become a gastropub full of people I have nothing in common with and who are already well catered for in Brixton and surrounds.



No doubt - but there it is. Nothing stays the same for long in London


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I'd imagine that, down the years, the Grosvenor had a variety of identities before its popular 'live' one. Maybe it will manage to forge a new one.


It's remained an affordable pub offering entertainment for the local community for over a hundred years. I doubt very much it will continue as one.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)




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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 21, 2014)

Brilliant, sharing.

With credit, natch.


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## Belushi (Mar 21, 2014)

Such a shame, great venue, friendly staff.


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## leanderman (Mar 21, 2014)

editor said:


> It's remained an affordable pub offering entertainment for the local community for over a hundred years. I doubt very much it will continue as one.



Invoking the phrase 'local community' adds nothing to a discussion on a pub.


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## cuppa tee (Mar 21, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Invoking the phrase 'local community' adds nothing to a discussion on a pub.



have you ever visited the Grosvenor ?


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## leanderman (Mar 21, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> have you ever visited the Grosvenor ?



Three times. Nice place


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## SarfLondoner (Mar 21, 2014)

editor said:


> Feature here:
> 
> Anti-gentrification movies beamed onto the luxury development that is going to kill the Stockwell Grosvenor
> 
> ...





editor said:


> Feature here:
> 
> Anti-gentrification movies beamed onto the luxury development that is going to kill the Stockwell Grosvenor
> 
> ...


No mention of Brockwell park or lido or the rec. But they mention Battersea park,Wandsworth common and Tooting lido and Clapham for a good night out.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Invoking the phrase 'local community' adds nothing to a discussion on a pub.


Really? You don't think some pubs operate as a true community resource more than others? You know, like accommodating a wide range of different people, putting on neighbourhood based events, letting local groups use the facilities, running fund raising events etc etc...


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## leanderman (Mar 21, 2014)

editor said:


> Really? You don't think some pubs operate as a true community resource more than others? You know, like accommodating a wide range of different people, putting on neighbourhood based events, letting local groups use the facilities, running fund raising events etc etc...



Very impressed by the way Effra Social always finds room for our residents' meetings

The Elm Park Tavern, on the other hand, could not give a toss.

But do most pubs really accommodate a wide range of people? Muslims, women, children, old people etc? Or a narrower demographic?

Anyway, the activities you suggest can continue, if the Grosvenor continues.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 21, 2014)

So - and correct me if I'm wrong here - the pub was sold to a property management company with no interest in pubs but with a serious interest in luxury flats. Said company is now redeveloping their properties in the area on that basis. The conclusion would seem to be that the pub will vanish as a pub, as the landlord seems to have thought hence quitting.


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## Brixton Hatter (Mar 22, 2014)

Personally, I'm disappointed the landlord of the Grosvenor is giving up without a fight. I've discussed it with him several times. I told him he'd have lots of local support if he wanted to resist any future complaints etc, but he said to me "don't save the pub!" 

I guess it's fair enough if he doesn't want to carry on - it's his decision after all. And he may have other plans. 

I might be wrong on this, but I think he's got several years left on the lease, so presumably someone else could keep the pub going. Personally I would give it a real go and fight any potential bullshit from new residents opposite. But perhaps J is taking a sensible decision to not fight a fight which he will almost inevitably lose, probably with lots of legal, financial and emotional stress involved too.

Been to some great gigs there over the years, won and lost many quizzes, played endless games of pool and got legless on endless ciders. Great pub. All there is to do now is enjoy it while it's still there….


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

I can't see any application for the upstairs of the pub to be turned into self contained flats. Is it already?

I don't know a huge amount about punk but throwing the towel in at such an early stage, even before the lease expires, is not an action I would have associated with a venue with "punk in it's soul". Is it possible that a financial arrangement has been reached between the pub leaseholder and the freeholder?


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## Brixton Hatter (Mar 22, 2014)

I'm pretty sure all the surrounding property - the half dozen three-storey houses on Sidney Road, and the half dozen three-storey (empty) houses round the corner on Aytoun Road - is owned by Golfrate (or whatever developer it is). The pub is now the only thing in their way. I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to knock down the lot and put another massive apartment block on the site.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I don't know a huge amount about punk but throwing the towel in at such an early stage, even before the lease expires, is not an action I would have associated with a venue with "punk in it's soul".


Go to the Grosvenor often, do you?


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## astrogarage (Mar 22, 2014)

I'd definitely second the notion that the Grosvenor is a community pub, but it's something you'd probably only really understand if you spent a fair amount of time there. It's certainly not devoted to maximising profit above all else, and has possibly the most varied clientele I've ever come across. I wonder where these people will go when the place is turned into some bland gastropub patronised entirely by people under 30 who work in marketing.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I can't see any application for the upstairs of the pub to be turned into self contained flats. Is it already?
> 
> I don't know a huge amount about punk but throwing the towel in at such an early stage, even before the lease expires, is not an action I would have associated with a venue with "punk in it's soul". Is it possible that a financial arrangement has been reached between the pub leaseholder and the freeholder?





editor said:


> Go to the Grosvenor often, do you?


Now now. There's no need to cock your leg all over the thread with non sequiturs. I am more than happy to bow to your knowledge of punk culture. If you insist that throwing the towel in even before the new places have been finished and years before the pub lease expires, with little more than a shrug and a rallying cry of "_don't save the pub!_" is a punk inspired response to the encroachment of capitalist driven gentrification, I will reluctantly take your word for it.

To an ill-informed bystander like myself it just looks remarkably like the usual scenario in which a freeholder wanting possession has offered cash in return for the leaseholder giving up the lease and quietly walking away.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Now now. There's no need to cock your leg all over the thread with non sequiturs. I am more than happy to bow to your knowledge of punk culture. If you insist that throwing the towel in even before the new places have been finished and years before the pub lease expires, with little more than a shrug and a rallying cry of "_don't save the pub!_" is a punk inspired response to the encroachment of capitalist driven gentrification, I will reluctantly take your word for it.


Why the fuck are you banging on and on about punk? It's a pub, but a musical genre.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

editor said:


> Why the fuck are you banging on and on about punk? It's a pub, but a musical genre.


Erm, sorry, what?


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## cuppa tee (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Erm, sorry, what?



the pub hosts a number of punk nights but it's not exclusively a punk pub, as astrogarage has said the clientele is very diverse, even on the night of a punk gig you will find more senior gentlemen enjoying a quiet pint or three.
It has been host to diverse events from left wing film clubs to the Reay School parents disco.


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## astrogarage (Mar 22, 2014)

yeah, i play jazz in the bar there every monday, more or less. and there's a folk session once a month, plus experimental/weird stuff, a ping pong night and all sorts. not just punk. it's (as far as I can work out) a pretty unique place. I'll be very sad to see it go.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> To an ill-informed bystander like myself it just looks remarkably like the usual scenario in which a freeholder wanting possession has offered cash in return for the leaseholder giving up the lease and quietly walking away.


If you're such a self confessed 'ill informed bystander' why do you bother to post up such ill informed and negative comments, then?   

The way you've charged in to dismiss the integrity of the landlord from a position of sheer ignorance really is rather shameful, IMO. So do you go to the pub often? Have you ever been? If you did, you might gain an understanding of what the pub is about and find out the full story why it's closing.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

astrogarage said:


> yeah, i play jazz in the bar there every monday, more or less. and there's a folk session once a month, plus experimental/weird stuff, a ping pong night and all sorts. not just punk. it's (as far as I can work out) a pretty unique place. I'll be very sad to see it go.


Agreed. The free Christmas brass concerts they did there were wonderful too.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> the pub hosts a number of punk nights but it's not exclusively a punk pub, as astrogarage has said the clientele is very diverse, even on the night of a punk gig you will find more senior gentlemen enjoying a quiet pint or three.
> It has been host to diverse events from left wing film clubs to the Reay School parents disco.


Left Wing Film clubs (or any wing film clubs, frankly) aren't really my thing and I'd sadly(?) not qualify for a parent's disco. But the Brixton Ping Pong Society nights have been fun - might see some of you there next week? I've never been to a gig in there but mates have played there several times over the past years and an I only hear good things - unfortunately I've always been doing something else when they are on. I don't disagree that it's a unique pub or that it will be missed by many - rest assured, Cuppa, I've said nothing to suggest otherwise. There is nothing I like about seeing it go - especially with Golfrate being involved.

Ed mentioned that the landlord has decided to pack it in early because he can't put on noisy punk nights anymore. I said that didn't sound very in the spirit of punk. Which it isn't. Which isn't really important or worth anyone getting worked up about. But this is Urbz. So it means that I said the venue deserves to have a bomb dropped on it.

I don't doubt that it could continue in many of it's various current guises - even many of the musical ones - even if there eventually had to be some compromise on the later noisier ones. The Effra manages it very well and is rammed most nights of the week. That's why I don't think we've got the whole story. Who just closes down and walks away from a valuable lease to a popular pub years early because they are worried that they _might_ get some complaints about some of their noisier events somewhere down the line?

It would seem churlish, short sighted and unreasonable to me for anyone to suggest that the landlord lacked integrity if he sold the last few years of his lease back to the freeholder. But given that there are apparently years left on it, and no one appears to have heard anything about anyone having been asked whether they'd like to take it over, and that it's fairly normal practice, I rather suspect that it is possible that this could be what has happened. As happened at Mango Landing.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

editor said:


> If you're such a self confessed 'ill informed bystander' why do you bother to post up such ill informed and negative comments, then?



I'll save this wonderful comment for later use .

Although on second thoughts, you would have to admit to being ill-informed about whatever you happened to ranting about. Damn.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Ed mentioned that the landlord has decided to pack it in early because he can't put on noisy punk nights anymore. I said that didn't sound very in the spirit of punk. Which it isn't.


Not sure what you know about 'the spirit of punk' or why it seems central to every post you make about the Grosvenor, but let me try and explain again.

The landlord has no wish to see the pub turn into a neutered, travesty of itself (which is most certainly what will happen once the apartments open up), so has elected to leave it on a high. And I respect him for that.

I don't expect you to understand that seeing as you've never been to any gigs there, but I imagine that those who have fully understand his reasons.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> It would seem churlish, short sighted and unreasonable to me for anyone to suggest that the landlord lacked integrity if he sold the last few years of his lease back to the freeholder. But given that there are apparently years left on it, and no one appears to have heard anything about anyone having been asked whether they'd like to take it over, and that it's fairly normal practice, I rather suspect that it is possible that this could be what has happened. As happened at Mango Landing.


The landlord was offered the opportunity to run the pub under Golfrate.

And, as I have explained, he declined because he did not want to see his pub turned into something that would be a watered-down parody of what it's been for the last 20 years. You can get as sneery as you like, but I respect that attitude more than anything you've come up with here.

Oh, and..


Rushy said:


> Although on second thoughts, you would have to admit to being ill-informed about whatever you happened to ranting about. Damn.


Grow up, ffs.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

editor said:


> Not sure what you know about 'the spirit of punk' or why it seems central to every post you make about the Grosvenor, but let me try and explain again.
> 
> The landlord has no wish to see the pub turn into a neutered, travesty of itself (which is most certainly what will happen once the apartments open up), so has elected to leave it on a high. And I respect him for that.



What about all the other users who would never cause a disturbance problem? Like the film nights. Jazz nights. Ping Pong nights. Folk nights. Elderly gentlemen just having a drink. I'm sorry. What you are saying sounds like nonsense.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> What about all the other users who would never cause a disturbance problem? Like the film nights. Jazz nights. Ping Pong nights. Folk nights. Elderly gentlemen just having a drink. I'm sorry. What you are saying sounds like nonsense.


Midweek ping pong nights and indie film showings won't keep the pub in business, silly, and the folk nights -which you've never attended - can be quite loud too.

And if it's busy, there'll be people in the smoking area outside and that's one of the areas where the complaints will come from.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

editor said:


> The landlord was offered the opportunity to run the pub under Golfrate.
> 
> And, as I have explained, he declined because he did not want to see his pub turned into something that would be a watered-down parody of what it's been for the last 20 years. You can get as sneery as you like, but I respect that attitude more than anything you've come up with here.
> 
> ...



Golfrate bought the freehold subject to his lease. He _is_ running it under Golfrate and has been since they bought it. The change in freeholder does not change the lease he owns. The only way Golfrate can get the lease back is if he breaks the terms of the lease e.g. does not pay, or he voluntarily sells it to them, or he simply walks away form it. You are seriously saying that he chose to walk away from it, handing Golfrate a valuable asset for nothing? Really?


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Golfrate bought the freehold subject to his lease. He _is_ running it under Golfrate and has been since they bought it. The change in freeholder does not change the lease he owns. The only way Golfrate can get the lease back is if he breaks the terms of the lease e.g. does not pay, or he voluntarily sells it to them, or he simply walks away form it. You are seriously saying that he chose to walk away from it, handing Golfrate a valuable asset for nothing? Really?


Why don't you go up and ask him instead of posting up your self confessed 'ill-informed' opinions?

You know what really fucks me off here? That's the fact that you're prepared to disrupt this thread about the end of a well loved pub and cast aspersions on the integrity of the owner as an excuse to have another pop at me. 

It's _pathetic_ and I've no interest in playing along.


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## Rushy (Mar 22, 2014)

editor said:


> Why don't you go up and ask him instead of posting up your self confessed 'ill-informed' opinions?
> 
> You know what really fucks me off here? That's the fact that you're prepared to disrupt this thread about the end of a well loved pub and cast aspersions on the integrity of the owner as an excuse to have another pop at me.
> 
> It's _pathetic_ and I've no interest in playing along.



I'm not casting aspersions about his integrity as I don't think it would show a lack of integrity if he had sold the remainder back to Golfrate. You're the one who is judging. As far as I'm concerned, it's  his lease. It is up to him what he decides to do with it. I just don't think your story makes sense. And now that you have said you're not playing and taken your toys home, I rather suspect you are struggling to come up with a good reason why he would have given away a valuable asset to Golfrate for nothing.

Of course Brixton Hatter may have been wrong and the lease is simply expiring? Is that possible BH?


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## leanderman (Mar 22, 2014)

I don't buy the editor's narrative here. 

But it would be sad if the pub shut.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I don't buy the editor's narrative here.


Oh, so why is the landlord leaving, then? Be sure to post up the details.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Golfrate bought the freehold subject to his lease. He _is_ running it under Golfrate and has been since they bought it. The change in freeholder does not change the lease he owns. The only way Golfrate can get the lease back is if he breaks the terms of the lease e.g. does not pay, or he voluntarily sells it to them, or he simply walks away form it. You are seriously saying that he chose to walk away from it, handing Golfrate a valuable asset for nothing? Really?


Why don't you go ask him instead of just posting up your your "ill informed" guesses, slurs and opinions about how you don't think he's "punk rock"?


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## Brixton Hatter (Mar 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Of course Brixton Hatter may have been wrong and the lease is simply expiring? Is that possible BH?


You'll need to ask the landlord about the specifics of the lease.

The impression I got when I spoke to him was that he had some time left on the lease. But this was a while ago.


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## leanderman (Mar 22, 2014)

editor said:


> Oh, so why is the landlord leaving, then? Be sure to post up the details.



I'd ask him if I had the chance. 

But I am not buying the noise- neighbours-gentrification argument.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

leanderman said:


> But I am not buying the noise- neighbours-gentrification argument.


Really? So exactly what are you basing your opinion on? Do you go to the pub often? Why do you think he's leaving a successful pub that he loves right when the apartments are opening up opposite?


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## Brixton Hatter (Mar 22, 2014)

Of course, people like Rushy stand to make lots of cash out of developments like this, so it's hardly surprising he's trying to wind up editor about it.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2014)

Press release for the Reel News gig earlier this week: 


> Those of you who know and love the Grosvenor will also know that we are about to lose the pub as we know it to property developers in July, who are building luxury flats opposite AND above it.
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/ai1ec_ev...ing-against-gentrification/?instance_id=69416


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## leanderman (Mar 23, 2014)

editor said:


> Really? So exactly what are you basing your opinion on? Do you go to the pub often? Why do you think he's leaving a successful pub that he loves right when the apartments are opening up opposite?



I don't buy your argument. Sorry.


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## leanderman (Mar 23, 2014)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Of course, people like Rushy stand to make lots of cash out of developments like this, so it's hardly surprising he's trying to wind up editor about it.



I don't think it's a wind-up. Exactly the same questions Rushy raised crossed my mind.


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## editor (Mar 23, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I don't buy your argument. Sorry.


Yes, so you've said already. Can you answer my questions as to why you don't "buy" it, please?

When was the last time you were there? Have you ever spoken to the landlord? Why do you think he's leaving?

At least have the courage to say what you're basing your flippant dismissal of my comments on.


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## leanderman (Mar 23, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, so you've said already. Can you answer my questions as to why you don't "buy" it, please?
> 
> When was the last time you were there? Have you ever spoken to the landlord? Why do you think he's leaving?
> 
> At least have the courage to say what you're basing your flippant dismissal of my comments on.



The questions I have about your narrative were clearly expressed by Rushy. 

I see no need to repeat them.


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## editor (Mar 23, 2014)

leanderman said:


> The questions I have about your narrative were clearly expressed by Rushy.
> 
> I see no need to repeat them.


He knows just about nothing about the pub.

He doesn't know the landlord either; he's never spoken to him, he's never spoken to anyone else about him and he knows nothing of his situation.

So why exactly are you faithfully parroting his self proclaimed "ill-informed" views?


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## leanderman (Mar 23, 2014)

editor said:


> He knows just about nothing about the pub.
> 
> He doesn't know the landlord either; he's never spoken to him, he's never spoken to anyone else about him and he knows nothing of his situation.
> 
> So why exactly are you faithfully parroting his self proclaimed "ill-informed" views?



Because I don't believe the noise-gentrification-neighbours explanation. 

The landlord might have any number of reasons for wanting to move on.

He might want to cash in his remaining lease

He might want to do something else with his life.

He may have made enough money. He may not be making enough money. 

He might be telling you what you want to hear. You might be hearing what you want to hear.


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## editor (Mar 23, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Because I don't believe the noise-gentrification-neighbours explanation.
> 
> The landlord might have any number of reasons for wanting to move on.
> 
> ...


Ah, so you think he's lying and you're basing that unpleasant accusation on, err, nothing but your own prejudices. That says a lot about you.


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## leanderman (Mar 23, 2014)

editor said:


> Ah, so you think he's lying and you're basing that unpleasant accusation on, err, nothing but your own prejudices. That says a lot about you.



Thanks.


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## editor (Mar 23, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Thanks.


Look at what you've just posted. You don't even know the landlord, you've never spoken to him, you know next to nothing about the pub, you've hardly ever been there, yet here you are accusing him on a public forum of being a liar. Shameful stuff, IMO.


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## cuppa tee (Mar 24, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I can't see any application for the upstairs of the pub to be turned into self contained flats. Is it already?


I may be wrong but I think the upstairs of the pub is mostly occupied by people who work there, given the developers previous on this type of situation ( the two-0-eight bar in lewisham ) maybe the landlord doesn't want to risk finding himself and his staff locked out of their own homes without notice, especially as it is the developers proud boast that they will rinse the most value out of properties they manage, I can't see live in staff being as profitable as a den of high rent paying young professionals....as well the flats going up across the road there are also substantial renovations and works on three houses directly next to the pub both on aytoun road and sydney road so a total of 6 houses.....these have been passed as part of the ongoing regeneration of the area. I don't know if the landlord is taking a cash sum for leaving before his lease is up but if the alternative is to see the pub he has built up during his tenure become something else under who knows what constraints by the owners then can we blame him. the general drift of your posts and those of leanderman has been to cast doubt on the idea that this pub will be falling victim to gentrification but that is clearly bollocks because even your theoretical argument of some kind of pay off would be dependent on the owners wanting the landlord out in the first place as you yourself pointed out in two of your previous posts


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## Rushy (Mar 24, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> I may be wrong but I think the upstairs of the pub is occupied by people who work there, given the developers previous on this type of situation ( the two-0-eight bar in lewisham ) maybe the landlord doesn't want to risk finding himself and his staff locked out of their own homes without notice, especially as it is the developers proud boast that they will rinse the most value out of properties they manage, I can't see live in staff being as profitable as a den of high rent paying young professionals....as well the flats going up across the road there are also substantial renovations and works on three house each directly next to the pub both on aytoun road and sydney road these have been passed as part of the ongoing regeneration of the area. I don't know if the landlord is taking a cash sum for leaving before his lease is up but if the alternative is to see the pub he has built up during his tenure become something else under who knows what constraints by the owners then can we blame him. the general drift of your posts and those of leanderman has been to cast doubt on the idea that this pub will be falling victim to gentrification but that is clearly bollocks because even your theoretical argument of some kind of pay off would be dependent on the owners wanting the landlord out as you pointed out in two of your previous posts



I don't think you've really paid much attention to my posts if you think I doubt that regeneration is playing a significant role in the changes at the Grosvenor; or that I don't think that the loss of a late music venue will be a shame. I don't believe leanderman doubts it either. But as Winot said to Ed:


> My problem is with the words you use. Whether you mean to or not, you are misrepresenting the position. What's more, it's unnecessary because it is a strong story without the misrepresentation.



Misrepresentation attracts doubt, confusion, loss of credibility and ultimately loss of interest.

No one has a bone to pick with the landlord; nor has anyone accused him of lying. It's the credibility of Ed's report which is in question. As for your question as to who can blame the landlord for doing a deal? I agree with you. Only one person has implied that any voluntary financial arrangement with the freeholder in return for handing the pub back early would point to a lack of integrity on the part of the pub landlord. And that was Ed.


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## editor (Mar 24, 2014)

Rushy said:


> It's the credibility of Ed's report which is in question.


Seeing as you know next to fuck all about the pub, have barely ever visited, don't attend gigs there and have never spoken to the landlord, it's the credibility of your own admitted "ill informed" opinions that are in question here.

Oh, and don't try and twist my words around. Thanks.


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## boohoo (Mar 25, 2014)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Personally, I'm disappointed the landlord of the Grosvenor is giving up without a fight. I've discussed it with him several times. I told him he'd have lots of local support if he wanted to resist any future complaints etc, but he said to me "don't save the pub!"
> 
> I guess it's fair enough if he doesn't want to carry on - it's his decision after all. And he may have other plans.
> 
> ...



I am also surprise he hasn't put up a fight. If neighbours haven't complained before, will that happen now? Do social housing tenants not complain? 

I'm sure the pub will remain - I use to go in there back in the early 1990s before they did music nights. Was a local pub back then. Maybe it will turn into a pub like the crown and anchor and the people of urban75 will be happy.


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## Rushy (Mar 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> I am also surprise he hasn't put up a fight. If neighbours haven't complained before, will that happen now? Do social housing tenants not complain?
> 
> I'm sure the pub will remain - I use to go in there back in the early 1990s before they did music nights. Was a local pub back then. Maybe it will turn into a pub like the crown and anchor and the people of urban75 will be happy.


As far as I recall the social housing flats directly opposite were boarded up for quite a long while before they were knocked down and the site redeveloped. Can't remember how long they were like that but the planning permission was granted in 2006 so potentially around then? That could help explain how the pub managed to be noisier than most in the middle of a residential area without attracting many complaints.


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## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> I am also surprise he hasn't put up a fight. If neighbours haven't complained before, will that happen now? Do social housing tenants not complain?


What kind of fight can he put up? It's a pub that makes the majority of its income from late, lively music nights. There is a large, exclusive development opening opposite and the upstairs of the pub is also being turned into private flats. And then there is another proposed private development next to the music room.

How do you think he might be able to continue putting on the kind of nights that the place is well known for under those circumstances, and where do you think the smokers might go?

Oh, and as regards your point about 'social housing tenants not complaining,' I would suggest that there certainly is a probability that the new tenants enjoying their luxury apartments will be _more likely_ to complain. For supporting evidence of that theory, look no further than what's happening on Coldharbour Lane.


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## boohoo (Mar 25, 2014)

editor I just wondered why he didn't stay around and see what happens. There would be a lot of support from local people like Brixton Hatter mentioned. 

When does the upstairs part of the pub get turned into private flats?


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## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> editor I just wondered why he didn't stay around and see what happens.


I can work out why, because I'd do the same thing in those circumstances

In fact, I gave up doing club nights in another venue for almost exactly the same reasons.


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## cuppa tee (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I don't think you've really paid much attention to my posts if you think I doubt that regeneration is playing a significant role in the changes at the Grosvenor or that I don't think that the loss of a late music venue will be a shame. I don't believe leanderman doubts it either. But as Winot said to Ed:
> 
> 
> Misrepresentation attracts doubt, confusion, loss of credibility and ultimately loss of interest.
> ...



Apologies if I misunderstood you but it was probably all those posts insinuating the landlord is selling out on the punk ethos that made me miss the other bits you refer to .
Regarding not being accused of lying this 





> He might be telling you what you want to hear


 comes quite close, as do your comments casting doubt on the developers plans to turn the upstairs of the pub into flats
which given their mission statement and history [ the former Bradys is one example ] is well within the bounds of probability as well as being a situation typical of gentrification.


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## Rushy (Mar 25, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> Apologies if I misread your posts but it was probably all those posts insinuating the landlord is selling out on the punk ethos that made me miss the other bits you refer to .
> Regarding not being accused of lying this  comes quite close, as do your comments casting doubt on the developers plans to turn the upstairs of the pub into flats
> which given their mission statement and history [ the former Bradys is one example ] is well within the bounds of probability as well as being a situation typical of gentrification.



Well - it's _not_ very punk to throw the towel on a popular venue just because you are concerned that you might disturb a rich posh person trying to have a nap at some point in the future. It's fair observation even if not a particularly important or meaningful one, especially given that it is not really a specifically punk venue as you were quick to point out. "Selling out" are your words, not mine. I wouldn't use them because the term implies a lack of integrity - which I have made clear is an accusation I would not support.



> I can't see any application for the upstairs of the pub to be turned into self contained flats. Is it already?


 is hardly an accusation of lying. I raised the question about reported plans to _convert the upstairs of the pub into private luxury flats_ because there is no planning application - suggesting that there is already residential upstairs, which you have since confirmed. 

So my point is, the upstairs is not being converted to residential because it _already is_ residential. The existing flats are going to be refurbished. The question then arises whether the flats were demised with the pub lease or not? If they were not, then the flats are already self contained private flats - so no big change. If they were demised with the lease, then the refurb can only be happening as  a consequence of the lease coming to an end, early or otherwise. Neither scenario really equates to being forced out by the conversion of the upper floors into luxury flats.

Again, there is no suggestion that the landlord is lying to anyone. It's all about the presentation of the facts in the report. Misrepresentation attracts doubt and questions. Most of the questions could be answered pretty simply I'd have thought, thus putting the matter to bed. Instead, the questions seem to be getting deflected with playground taunts, aggression and accusations of being against the landlord, the pub and, ultimately, against _real _Brixton. Which only makes me more convinced that the facts have indeed been misrepresented.


----------



## leanderman (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> Look at what you've just posted. You don't even know the landlord, you've never spoken to him, you know next to nothing about the pub, you've hardly ever been there, yet here you are accusing him on a public forum of being a liar. Shameful stuff, IMO.



You asked me: _'Why do you think he's leaving? At least have the courage to say what you're basing your flippant dismissal of my comments on.'_

So I gave you a few possible explanations as to why.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> You asked me: _'Why do you think he's leaving? At least have the courage to say what you're basing your flippant dismissal of my comments on.'_
> 
> So I gave you a few possible explanations as to why.


No, you haven't. You just pointed at Rushy's 'ill-informed' wild guesses that seem to be based on nothing more than his own personal attitude to property and profit.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Again, there is no suggestion that the landlord is lying to anyone. It's all about the presentation of the facts in the report.


What "report"? I've just posted up exactly what he told me and you've thrown around completely groundless accusations in response.  Your behaviour in this thread disgusts me, to be honest.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Well - it's _not_ very punk to throw the towel on a popular venue just because you are concerned that you might disturb a rich posh person trying to have a nap at some point in the future.


Because that's _exactly_ what he's been saying, isn't it?


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## Rushy (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> What "report"? I've just posted up exactly what he told me and you've thrown around completely groundless accusations in response.  Your behaviour in this thread disgusts me, to be honest.


Posted. Reported. Ranted. Fantasised. Misinterpreted. Whatever you fancy. He's your bestie, you go to parties there, I'm silly, Leanderman's unpleasant, you once gave up doing a club night because of the hassle of noise complaints so you know just what it's like to walk away from a lease worth six figures. Super arguments which I just can't pick a hole in. You win!


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Posted. Reported. Ranted. Fantasised. Misinterpreted. Whatever you fancy. He's your bestie, you go to parties there, I'm silly, Leanderman's unpleasant, you once gave up doing a club night because of the hassle of noise complaints so you know just what it's like to walk away from a lease worth six figures. Super arguments which I just can't pick a hole in. You win!


Better than an argument from someone who barely knows the venue, doesn't go to club nights there, doesn't know the landlord *and has never spoken a word to him* - yet still feels at liberty to call him a liar on a public forum.

Like I said, your behaviour disgusts me.


----------



## leanderman (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> No, you haven't. You just pointed at Rushy's 'ill-informed' wild guesses that seem to be based on nothing more than his own personal attitude to property and profit.



Not true. In post 123 I gave a series of possible reasons why he, or any landlord, might leave.


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## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Not true. In post 123 I gave a series of possible reasons why he, or any landlord, might leave.


You started with, "Because I don't believe the noise-gentrification-neighbours explanation."

So what were your grounds for suggesting that the landlord had lied to me?


----------



## leanderman (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> Because that's _exactly_ what he's been saying, isn't it?



What has he exactly been saying?

I can only find this: _'The long-serving landlord realised that there was no way that the Grosvenor could continue as a live music venue, and so handed in his notice.'
_
Any more detail?


----------



## cuppa tee (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> "Selling out" are your words, not mine. I wouldn't use them because the term implies a lack of integrity - which I have made clear is an accusation I would not support.



Fair enough, but the following quote from your first post in this part of the discussion reads like exactly that.....



Rushy said:


> I don't know a huge amount about punk but throwing the towel in at such an early stage, even before the lease expires, is not an action I would have associated with a venue with "punk in it's soul". Is it possible that a financial arrangement has been reached between the pub leaseholder and the freeholder?


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## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> What has he exactly been saying?
> 
> I can only find this: _'The long-serving landlord realised that there was no way that the Grosvenor could continue as a live music venue, and so handed in his notice.'
> _
> Any more detail?


I've described in detail the reasons why he wanted to move on, but it seems pointless repeating them again because you've already said what you 'believe' to be true, despite having no actual real knowledge of the place or any contact with the landlord. 

But there's no need for you to keep on implying that the landlord is lying or that I'm making it up - try reading what han wrote back in December. She plays there regularly and has done so for years.


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## leanderman (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> I've described in detail the reasons why he wanted to move on, but it seems pointless repeating them again because you've already said what you 'believe' to be true, despite having no actual real knowledge of the place or any contact with the landlord.
> 
> But there's no need for you to keep on implying that the landlord is lying or that I'm making it up - try reading what han wrote back in December. She plays there regularly and has done so for years.



I think you forgot to insert some personal abuse and emotive language (shameful!, disgust!!) in this last post.


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## Rushy (Mar 25, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> Fair enough, but the following quote from your first post in this part of the discussion reads like exactly that.....


I've made clear in several posts that I don't think a financial arrangement would put his integrity in doubt. I guess you could continue to pretend that I had not clarified that several times Cuppa.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I think you forgot to insert some personal abuse and emotive language (shameful!, disgust!!) in this last post.


I think you forgot to answer the point.


----------



## Rushy (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> I've described in detail the reasons why he wanted to move on, but it seems pointless repeating them again because you've already said what you 'believe' to be true, despite having no actual real knowledge of the place or any contact with the landlord.
> 
> But there's no need for you to keep on implying that the landlord is lying or that I'm making it up - try reading what han wrote back in December. She plays there regularly and has done so for years.


So - just for clarity for a silly billy like me (because you have not actually said it yet):

You confirm that the landlord has categorically told you that he has not sold on, nor received financial compensation in return for giving up the remaining years of his lease?


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## editor (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> You confirm that the landlord has categorically told you that he has not sold on, nor received compensation in return for giving up the remaining years of his lease?


Have I ever made such a claim? No, so you can shove your latest attempts at deceitful twisting and misrepresentation. 

I explained the reasons why he has decided to leave the pub, and you then accused him of not having any 'punk rock integrity' and of being a liar. 

So on that basis, I'l be fucked if I'll play along with any more of your ill-informed and unpleasant attempts to slur the owner of a pub you know fuck all about.


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## leanderman (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> I think you forgot to answer the point.



See post 123.


----------



## cuppa tee (Mar 25, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I've made clear in several posts that I don't think a financial arrangement would put his integrity in doubt. I guess you could continue to pretend that I had not clarified that several times Cuppa.


but as you admitted earlier your mission here has been to make the version of events as laid out by the editor look like a misrepresentation and since that particular angle failed you have been back tracking on it, the fact you have agreed the pub as we know it will be closing because of gentrification and with the landlords integrity intact makes me think you might be flogging a dead horse on this occasion.


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## Rushy (Mar 25, 2014)

editor said:


> Have I ever made such a claim? No, so you can shove your latest attempts at deceitful twisting and misrepresentation.
> 
> I explained the reasons why he has decided to leave the pub, and you then accused him of not having any 'punk rock integrity' and of being a liar.



I think that answers it really. You've aggressively and repeatedly dismissed questions about the wording of your report - sorry, _post _-  which have been raised by at least 4 different people. And now it turns out that after all that ranting, bluster and name calling, you don't actually have enough information to really be sure whether they are right or wrong. You were just having a pop because you couldn't stand anyone doubting your simplistic black & white, good vs. evil account of the facts. Well done. I'm sure your buddy will be really pleased with the way you have seized every opportunity to use him as a shield try to deflect criticism of your own predictable repetitive rhetoric, by pretending that people are criticising him. Total genius.


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## Rushy (Mar 26, 2014)

That's a full stop for me on this one.


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## editor (Mar 26, 2014)

Rushy said:


> That's a full stop for me on this one.


Good. Next time you open your trap, I hope it's on a topic you _actually know something about_ rather than another stream of your 'ill informed,' grudge-laden bullshit.

Your attempt to belittle the integrity of someone you've never even met speaks volumes of the paucity of your arguments, and your constant ad hominems have added nothing to the debate.

Therefore, I'd be grateful if you'd make that 'full stop' even bigger and don't respond or refer to any more of my posts in the future, and I'd happily do the same to yours. I believe that would be of benefit to the forum as a whole.


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## Rushy (Mar 26, 2014)

editor said:


> Good. Next time you open your trap, I hope it's on a topic you _actually know something about_ rather than another stream of your 'ill informed,' grudge-laden bullshit.
> 
> Your attempt to belittle the integrity of someone you've never even met speaks volumes of the paucity of your arguments, and your constant ad hominems have added nothing to the debate.
> 
> Therefore, I'd be grateful if you'd make that 'full stop' even bigger and don't respond or refer to any more of my posts in the future, and I'd happily do the same to yours. I believe that would be of benefit to the forum as a whole.



Speak up! I can barely hear you from behind that mountain of sandbags you have so carefully hand crafted out of your buddy's intergrity.


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## Rushy (Mar 26, 2014)

I have had a warning about inappropriate content now so I will "shut my trap" before my account is limited, as has been threatened.


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## isvicthere? (Mar 26, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Speak up! I can barely hear you from behind that mountain of sandbags you have so carefully hand crafted out of your buddy's intergrity.



Two posts after your "full stop" and you're back? Shortest flounce ever!


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## Rushy (Mar 26, 2014)

isvicthere? said:


> Two posts after your "full stop" and you're back? Shortest flounce ever!


Yes well, I felt different after my second coffee.


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## leanderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Rushy said:


> So - just for clarity for a silly billy like me (because you have not actually said it yet):
> 
> You confirm that the landlord has categorically told you that he has not sold on, nor received financial compensation in return for giving up the remaining years of his lease?



Can a tenant assign a pub lease to anyone else? 

Or does it have to return to the freeholder if he/she gives it up?


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## Rushy (Mar 26, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Can a tenant assign a pub lease to anyone else?
> 
> Or does it have to return to the freeholder if he/she gives it up?



Normally they are free to sell it. E.g. Mango Landing was being sold to Kaff (until, I have been told, the huge bill for dilapidations chargeable to Mango was revealed by the freeholder). 

There may be exclusions to that. Sometimes the freeholder can object to a transfer to a particular individual or company if they can show that they are inappropriate (history of trouble, bankruptcy,etc..). 

Once the lease runs out there is usually an automatic right to renewal. That right can be opposed by the freeholder on the grounds that a building is to be redeveloped. In such a case statutory compensation would be payable to the tenant of between 1 ad 2 times the rateable value of the property, depending on how long they have been there.


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## leanderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Normally they are free to sell it. E.g. Mango Landing was being sold to Kaff (until, I have been told, the huge bill for dilapidations chargeable to Mango was revealed by the freeholder).
> 
> There may be exclusions to that. Sometimes the freeholder can object to a transfer to a particular individual or company if they can show that they are inappropriate (history of trouble, bankruptcy,etc..).
> 
> Once the lease runs out there is usually an automatic right to renewal. That right can be opposed by the freeholder on the grounds that a building is to be redeveloped. In such a case statutory compensation would be payable to the tenant of between 1 ad 2 times the rateable value of the property, depending on how long they have been there.



So does this mean the pub tenant could, in theory, pass the lease to someone who wanted to try to keep the pub going, in some form or other? And save it from being converted to flats?


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## Rushy (Mar 26, 2014)

leanderman said:


> So does this mean the pub tenant could, in theory, pass the lease to someone who wanted to try to keep the pub going, in some form or other?



Usually. But I'd imagine that would be pretty tricky to do if the tenancy only had a small number years to go and notice had already been served that renewal would be opposed on the grounds of redevelopment. 



> And save it from being converted to flats?



Well, it already is flats upstairs by all accounts - I don't think anyone is suggesting that the whole building is being converted although that may be applied for. Who knows? 
If notice is served that the freeholder wants the building back at the end of the tenancy, they can't stop the freeholder redeveloping the building by selling it on to a new tenant. The new tenant would still have to leave at the end of the tenancy (and would receive compensation) whenever that may be.


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## cuppa tee (May 7, 2014)

some new images here of what is to replace the Canterbury Arms..............

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...2142.article?blocktitle=London&contentID=7920

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/planners-toast-units-brixton-scheme/5068211.article



> _Unit partner Ross Hutchinson said Lambeth council’s approval for the development would kick-start the regeneration of the neighbourhood.
> “The site represents an important gateway into the wider East Brixton Regeneration Arc area,” he said.
> “By being the first scheme to secure approval in this strategic regeneration location, we hope our scheme will set the tone and quality of design for others to follow.” _

















> Proposals also include using a floor tile from the pub to line the residential entrance lobby, providing a link back to the site’s past,


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## boohoo (May 7, 2014)

so slightly interesting design at the bottom with bland run of the mill new housing on the top - Lambeth must be so proud.


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## Onket (May 7, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I have had a warning about inappropriate content now so I will "shut my trap" before my account is limited, as has been threatened.


This appears to be more common than I thought! incredible.


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## cuppa tee (May 7, 2014)

Onket said:


> This appears to be more common than I thought! incredible.



please do not derail discussion of the architectural merits of this landmark building by perpetuating this little squabble , thank you


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## Onket (May 7, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> please do not derail discussion of the architectural merits of this landmark building by perpetuating this little squabble , thank you


I'll reply to whichever posts I like, thanks. And if people want to reply to my posts, like you have, that's fine.


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## Rushy (May 7, 2014)

boohoo said:


> so slightly interesting design at the bottom with bland run of the mill new housing on the top - Lambeth must be so proud.


Gotta disagree with you Boohoo. Putting aside what is being lost, I quite like the design.

Just not sure about those arches.


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## cuppa tee (May 7, 2014)

Onket said:


> I'll reply to whichever posts I like, thanks. And if people want to reply to my posts, like you have, that's fine.


quoting a post from March 26th  ...  anyhow what do you think of the building ?


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## boohoo (May 7, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Gotta disagree with you Boohoo. Putting aside what is being lost, I quite like the design.
> 
> Just not sure about those arches.



It is slightly better than some of the others. But there is not a huge jump in its design to make a noticeable different to the block being built in Stockwell. It is hardly legacy making architecture.


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## cuppa tee (May 7, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Just not sure about those arches.



those are the biggest visible feature, an attempt to echo the curve of the pub front windows providing a link back to the sites past like the tiles in the lobby possibly..... just wondering if that is a glass walled penthouse they have stuck on the top


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## Rushy (May 7, 2014)

boohoo said:


> It is slightly better than some of the others. But there is not a huge jump in its design to make a noticeable different to the block being built in Stockwell. It is hardly legacy making architecture.


I think of the city more as a patchwork of not necessarily-legacy architecture. Loads of fantatsic urban setting have simple buildings. A lot of fantastic Victorian streets have almost featureless facades but because of the materials they age well. Using the London stock on that building is important as it ages so well.I like Albermarle too.



cuppa tee said:


> those are the biggest visible feature, an attempt to echo the curve of the pub front windows providing a link back to the sites past like the tiles in the lobby possibly..... just wondering if that is a glass walled penthouse they have stuck on the top


The scale of the arches is human - which is good. Might work well if the appropriate materials are used. Just not quite sure but reckon it could grow on me. I like the referencing, as you say.


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## Onket (May 7, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> quoting a post from March 26th  ...  anyhow what do you think of the building ?


This is the first time I've seen the post, so it's irrelevant when it's from.

Not a massive fan of the new building, thanks for asking.


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## clandestino (May 7, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I think of the city more as a patchwork of not necessarily-legacy architecture. Loads of fantatsic urban setting have simple buildings. A lot of fantastic Victorian streets have almost featureless facades but because of the materials they age well. Using the London stock on that building is important as it ages so well.I like Albermarle too.



Am I right in thinking that you work in this sector Rushy? If so, how long would you say it would take to build a building of this sort? The piece says it's expected to be completed in April 2016, so working backwards where does that place closure of the pub and demolition?


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## leanderman (May 7, 2014)

Is this the first we knew of this scheme?


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## clandestino (May 7, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Is the first we knew of this scheme?



We knew about the building, but the details such as the arches are new. 

Anyone here work in housing/building? Be great to get an answer to my question in post 177


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## Rushy (May 7, 2014)

clandestino said:


> Am I right in thinking that you work in this sector Rushy? If so, how long would you say it would take to build a building of this sort? The piece says it's expected to be completed in April 2016, so working backwards where does that place closure of the pub and demolition?


Out of my league, I'm afraid!
At a guess 12-18 months?


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## clandestino (May 7, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Out of my league, I'm afraid!
> At a guess 12-18 months?



Righto, thanks. So that's building work starting sometime between Nov 2014 and April 2015, with closure and demolition to be completed before then.


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## boohoo (May 7, 2014)

Rushy  - I'm not expecting everything to be a legacy but it's interesting the wealth of details on Victorian architecture certainly from the mid 19th century. The earlier Victorian buildings lack details and are closer to Georgian architecture. Even looking at different housing estates built in the 1960s and 1970s, there seems to be quite a variety of designs.


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## leanderman (May 7, 2014)

clandestino said:


> We knew about the building, but the details such as the arches are new.
> 
> Anyone here work in housing/building? Be great to get an answer to my question in post 177



Oh yes. Getting my pubs confused!


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## Rushy (May 7, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Rushy  - I'm not expecting everything to be a legacy but it's interesting the wealth of details on Victorian architecture certainly from the mid 19th century. The earlier Victorian buildings lack details and are closer to Georgian architecture. Even looking at different housing estates built in the 1960s and 1970s, there seems to be quite a variety of designs.


I love Victorian architecture. But it is of its time. I'm not against faithfully building in another period style per se - but what has been designed for there is of our time. I'd agree we are not culturally very adventurous with design at the moment. A lot of attempts to be more more adventurous end up being a bit try hard - I want to love FAT Architects for example, but mostly I think WOW before thinking I'd be tired of it in a couple of days. A lot of Georgian is lacking in detail but grand and impressive on account of the proportions and symmetry.

I'm not in any way saying that the proposal is perfect but I feel pretty comfortable with it. I like the proportions and symmetry. And there are suggestions of brick detail around all the openings. Have you any examples in mind of the sort of building you would like to see in there?


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## boohoo (May 7, 2014)

Rushy I don't want copies of buildings of the past however it seems to be the standard approach with all types of design (not particularly about architecture here) over the last 20 years. What happens to all the inspired young designers? 

i love the curves of the Clapham library building...but we won't be getting anything like that.


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## Rushy (May 7, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Rushy I don't want copies of buildings of the past however it seems to be the standard approach with all types of design (not particularly about architecture here) over the last 20 years. What happens to all the inspired young designers?
> 
> i love the curves of the Clapham library building...but we won't be getting anything like that.


I thought you might mention that one. I feel about that building a bit like FAT architects work which I mentioned before - grabs your attention for a moment and then - meh. It's a gimmick (matter of opinion, I'm sure ). And in a few years it will look pretty sorry for itself I reckon. Too much paint and hard to maintain. But yes - it would be nice to see a new style developing. 

I'd happily have seen something more adventurous like the Ironbark on K Road in Aukland. it is a mix of retail, hotel and apartments and the central courtyard is wonderful.







I'm not disagreeing with you - more just interested in your opinion and what you like.


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## leanderman (May 7, 2014)

If only it were easy to decide what was good architecture - for now and for ever!


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## technical (May 7, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I love Victorian architecture. But it is of its time. I'm not against faithfully building in another period style per se - but what has been designed for there is of our time. I'd agree we are not culturally very adventurous with design at the moment. A lot of attempts to be more more adventurous end up being a bit try hard - I want to love FAT Architects for example, but mostly I think WOW before thinking I'd be tired of it in a couple of days. A lot of Georgian is lacking in detail but grand and impressive on account of the proportions and symmetry.
> 
> I'm not in any way saying that the proposal is perfect but I feel pretty comfortable with it. I like the proportions and symmetry. And there are suggestions of brick detail around all the openings. Have you any examples in mind of the sort of building you would like to see in there?



I'd quite like a pub


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## Rushy (May 7, 2014)

technical said:


> I'd quite like a pub


Which is why I started by saying:


> putting aside what is being lost...


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## Crispy (May 7, 2014)

I think the new design is pretty good above the arches. Well proportioned, good solid materials. The bottom part, not so much.


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## 299 old timer (May 7, 2014)

Onket said:


> This appears to be more common than I thought! incredible.



To step out from the corner one has to wait for the paint to dry.


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## Onket (May 7, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> To step out from the corner one has to wait for the paint to dry.



Only if you're painting the floor.


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## 299 old timer (May 7, 2014)

Onket said:


> Only if you're painting the floor.



Exactly! The poster known as "editor" should take note.


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## Brixton Hatter (May 7, 2014)

> Proposals also include using a floor tile from the pub to line the residential entrance lobby, providing a link back to the site’s past,


Do you know what, I really hated this development and everything it represents, but the news that a single floor tile from the pub will be used to line the residential entrance lobby has convinced me that the developers really do have the best interests of our local communities at heart.  Great stuff. I hope the build goes really well and they make lots and lots of cash.


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## editor (May 8, 2014)

Still looks like a Milton Keynes office block to me, albeit with a moderately interesting arch feature.


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## technical (May 8, 2014)

For me, its not really about the architecture (although I very much doubt the finished building will look like its computer-generated representation). Its about badly thought through planning policy combined with the London property frenzy meaning that at present almost no use is viable in the face of residential prices. Difficult to think of any pubs or small shops that are safe right now.


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## leanderman (May 8, 2014)

technical said:


> For me, its not really about the architecture (although I very much doubt the finished building will look like its computer-generated representation). Its about badly thought through planning policy combined with the London property frenzy meaning that at present almost no use is viable in the face of residential prices. Difficult to think of any pubs or small shops that are safe right now.



Yes. Spot on. As I've said before, even buildings in the Strand are being converted to residential. Embassies are selling up and moving out etc.


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## Chilavert (May 8, 2014)

Yep there must be half a dozen former office blocks around where I work in Westminster that have been sold off to be turned into flats; there government doesn't need the space given the amount of civil servants that have been gievn the boot.


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## SpamMisery (May 12, 2014)

Just realised the Canterbury Arms was the first pub I ever went to in Brixton. In my defence it was over ten years ago and since they don't serve craft beers or have bar stools made out of bicycle parts I've not been back since. Funny how you store memories away like that, because if you'd asked me twenty minutes ago I'd have sworn blind I'd never been in


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## thebigposhfella (May 13, 2014)

Better not get rid of the Hero of Switzerland. The cheapest non-wetherspoons pub i know of. Good luck to them.


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## technical (May 20, 2014)

Wasn't sure which thread to put this in - apologies if someone has already posted this link, but excellent article in yesterday's Guardian about the redevelopment of the Woodberry Down estate in Hackney. 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...tion-how-woodberry-down-became-woodberry-park


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## editor (May 20, 2014)

thebigposhfella said:


> Better not get rid of the Hero of Switzerland. The cheapest non-wetherspoons pub i know of. Good luck to them.


I wish them the best too, but I do fear for the place's future.


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## Black Halo (May 27, 2014)

I just got an email about a seminar on pub protection this Saturday in the Melton Mowbray this might be of interest to people who have posted on this topic, I apologise if this could have gone else where.

Disclaimer: I got the email as a CAMRA member, it is a CAMRA event but am not an active member and have nothing to do with the event.


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## editor (May 27, 2014)

I posted this on the other thread, but planning permission to demolish the Canterbury has now been granted.


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## Rushy (May 27, 2014)

The link is still relevant / important for anyone serious about wanting to protect remaining valued pubs.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 6, 2014)

Just for discussion;
Britain's traditional pubs are closing. Maybe that's because they're terrible.
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-closing-maybe-thats-because-theyre-terrible


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2014)

Jeez, someone got paid to write that shit


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## editor (Jun 6, 2014)

That article was embarrassingly poor.


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## technical (Jun 6, 2014)

Its a piss take got to be - written by an Australian


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## peterkro (Jun 6, 2014)

Jesus wept,I'd say this bloke has never been in an Oz working class pub in his life.
Ice cold beer on a hot day at the beach.
Cunt.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jun 10, 2014)

As if Ozzy bars are so great?


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## editor (Jun 10, 2014)

The loss of the Canterbury and the Grosvenor is really going to leave a hole in Brixton's scene because there's really no places like either of them where people can use the back rooms for their own thing.


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## editor (Jul 1, 2014)

Golfrate have applied for planning permission to convert the top two floors of The Grosvenor into private flats. 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/07/...e-grosvenor-pub-stockwell-into-private-flats/

(*thanks to cuppa tee)


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## cuppa tee (Jul 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Golfrate have applied for planning permission to convert the top two floors of The Grosvenor into private flats.
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/07/...e-grosvenor-pub-stockwell-into-private-flats/
> 
> (*thanks to cuppa tee)



Same architect as the Brady's conversion................

[ thanks should really go to a dog walker in Slade Gardens who gave me the news btw ]


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## SpamMisery (Jul 1, 2014)

I dragged my other half into the Canterbury Arms on Sunday night because I hadn't been in for years and on hearing it was closing I thought it would be nice to see how it had changed. Bloke behind the bar got stroppy because my other half didn't want a drink. Not a single other person in there. Can't say I'll be going back


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## MAD-T-REX (Jul 2, 2014)

It's odd how some establishments would rather have nothing if they can't get as much out of you as possible.

I rocked up to the the ill-fated Jazz On The Hill on a Sunday with five mates; there was a band playing but no-one was drinking inside. This was explained by the £8 entry fee to an empty bar on a nice afternoon. We went next door to the Commercial instead, which I imagine is what every single person who considered going into Jazz ended up doing.


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## editor (Jul 2, 2014)

The Canterbury's less than perfectly honed customer relations skills are pretty well known.


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## leanderman (Jul 2, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> Same architect as the Brady's conversion................
> 
> [ thanks should really go to a dog walker in Slade Gardens who gave me the news btw ]



Seems the pub is being retained - in some form


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## editor (Jul 2, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Seems the pub is being retained - in some form


I'm pretty confident that it won't be a pub. At least not anything I'd describe as a pub.


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## cuppa tee (Jul 3, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Seems the pub is being retained - in some form


It looks that way according to the plans, but the extension to the ground floor might be necessary to squeeze more flats on top
one things for sure it won't be the same pub, and that is a loss to the area and beyond, I am trying to be optimistic but it's hard to imagine any future
premises will not be tainted by the whiff of pulled pork...........


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## leanderman (Jul 3, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> It looks that way according to the plans, but the extension to the ground floor might be necessary to squeeze more flats on top
> one things for sure it won't be the same pub, and that is a loss to the area and beyond, I am trying to be optimistic but it's hard to imagine any future
> premises will not be tainted by the whiff of pulled pork...........



Champagne & Fromage Deux


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## DietCokeGirl (Jul 6, 2014)

Heard rumour the Grosvenor closes end of this month, can anyone confirm?


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## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2014)

I thought it was some time in August


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## colacubes (Jul 6, 2014)

I was told 1st weekend in August.


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## editor (Jul 6, 2014)

colacubes said:


> I was told 1st weekend in August.


Yep. It's really upsetting.


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## cuppa tee (Aug 18, 2014)

thinking about what's next for the grosvenor I checked the Lambeth website for progress on golfrates application, a decision is still pending but the public comments reveal a lot of opposition including objections from the Brixton society, camra and a local councillor  amongst others

http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...iveTab=neighbourComments&keyVal=N6L4HVBO67000th

will be  interesting to see the outcome, specially as a refusal will properly piss on the developers bonfire


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## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2014)

I thought the problem with The Grosvenor was the block opposite being built?


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## Crispy (Aug 18, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought the problem with The Grosvenor was the block opposite being built?


The much bigger problem is that golfrate want to turn the upstairs of the pub into flats.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2014)

I'm sure the landlord John said he was selling cos he knew the new residents would moan about the noise. And are Golfrate actually buying? I got the impression it was still on offer


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## colacubes (Aug 18, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm sure the landlord John said he was selling cos he knew the new residents would moan about the noise. And are Golfrate actually buying? I got the impression it was still on offer



Golfrate already own it.  They bought it last year.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2014)

Ah I see. Sorry. I'm always smashed when I'm in there and am probs not the best listener.

Shit. When I went there.


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## colacubes (Aug 18, 2014)

Depressing innit.  I used to toddle up there for a drink about once a week and it's really sad


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## editor (Aug 18, 2014)

Crispy said:


> The much bigger problem is that golfrate want to turn the upstairs of the pub into flats.


The new luxury flats opposite would have killed off the music just as surely.


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## editor (Aug 19, 2014)

_[Pics by Tallulah/Ian James]_


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## editor (Aug 19, 2014)

I've posted up a piece here. Feel free to add your own objections!
Objections rack up to proposed part-conversion of Grosvenor pub into flats


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## editor (Aug 20, 2014)

This comment was added to the B Buzz article: 



> And don’t forget the Canterbury Arms – mysteriously impossible to save from demolition and now suddenly right in the middle of the Council’s “Future Brixton” development.
> 
> Golfrate have already sent a surveyor in to measure the Grosvenor ground floor for “retail”.
> 
> If they get planning permission for the flats it’ll be a Tesco Metro in no time.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Planning permission REFUSED for the Grosvenor redevelopment!
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/08/...g-permission-for-grosvenor-pub-redevelopment/


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## clandestino (Aug 27, 2014)

Great news! Maybe Golfrate can get on with reopening the pub now!


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Here's the text of the refusal:


> Refuse Permission
> 
> The following conditions for permission or reasons for refusal apply:
> 
> ...


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## Winot (Aug 27, 2014)

Interesting - so the potential noise from the pub actually *helped* in getting planning permission refused?


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Well done to all those who registered objections too.


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## Mr Retro (Aug 27, 2014)

That's fucking brilliant! Will it reopen now as it was?


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> That's fucking brilliant! Will it reopen now as it was?


No doubt super-loaded Golfrate will have their legal team working on ways to get around this.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

I've just fired off an _Apollo mission_ of a longshot about the pub.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> That's fucking brilliant! Will it reopen now as it was?


Nope -the leaseholder sold the remaining years on the lease back to Golfrate. They won't want to run a pub so it will now sit empty until some kind of planning goes through. The licence will also have reverted to Golfrate so they will be able to amend it to a regular pub use with regular hours making it easier to argue that regular pub use will not be a nuisance to neighbours. 

Crispy - would the big room be any use as a temporary site for Makerspace or would that be too noisy?


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Rushy said:


> They won't want to run a pub so it will now sit empty until some kind of planning goes through. ?


I'm not sure why you're so confident given that they already own at least one working pub in the area.  Surely there's a possibility that may change if a financially agreeable proposal comes their way (given the rather emphatic nature of Lambeth's refusal)?


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm not sure why you're so confident given that they already own at least one working pub in the area.  Surely there's a possibility that may change if a financially agreeable proposal comes their way (given the rather emphatic nature of Lambeth's refusal)?


I doubt they see the recent refusal as anything more than a short term obstacle so probably won't be looking to get a new pub tenant in until they have planning and have refurbed the building. A short term tenant will probably be more hassle that it is worth to them.

I'm not sure which one is operating but I guess it is not them operating it? I guess it still has a long term leaseholder in it and is not part of a development scheme?


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## boohoo (Aug 27, 2014)

The developers will win unfortunately if they go for the old line about providing more new homes.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

boohoo said:


> The developers will win unfortunately if they go for the old line about providing more new homes.


They almost always win in the end, but I am slightly heartened by the contents of Lambeth's planning refusal.


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## boohoo (Aug 27, 2014)

editor said:


> They almost always win in the end, but I am slightly heartened by the contents of Lambeth's planning refusal.



Point number 1 is easy to get around - advertise it at the top end of the going rate, make it look totally bad value for money - no-one will want it.

 The  developers will have a row of suited booted men when it comes to the appeal who will have an answer for everything.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Point number 1 is easy to get around - advertise it at the top end of the going rate, make it look totally bad value for money - no-one will want it.
> 
> The  developers will have a row of suited booted men when it comes to the appeal who will have an answer for everything.


I think the argument for 1 is more likely to be that pubs don't generally have the owners or staff living on top any more. The landlord didn't live there I don't think and someone mentioned that the rooms were let out anyway.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I think the argument for 1 is more likely to be that pubs don't generally have the owners or staff living on top any more. The landlord didn't live there I don't think and someone mentioned that the rooms were let out anyway.


He did live there, as did some of his staff.


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## Crispy (Aug 27, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Crispy - would the big room be any use as a temporary site for Makerspace or would that be too noisy?


Certainly not any more so than live music. We're negotiating for a permanent space at the moment though, so hopefully won't have to bother. Also, I very much doubt golfrate would be up for it.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

editor said:


> He did live there, as did some of his staff.


I thought cuppa mentioned it - must me misremembering. Even so - I think that might be an argument to allow existing accommodation to become self contained.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Certainly not any more so than live music. We're negotiating for a permanent space at the moment though, so hopefully won't have to bother. Also, I very much doubt golfrate would be up for it.


They haven't exactly got a reputation as being the most community minded of developers.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Certainly not any more so than live music. We're negotiating for a permanent space at the moment though, so hopefully won't have to bother. Also, I very much doubt golfrate would be up for it.


Good luck. I look forward to hearing more!


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2014)

Wasn't the pub inevitably going to shut down anyway when the luxury flats opposite are built and the residents starting moaning? Or is that another pub?


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## brixtonblade (Aug 27, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Wasn't the pub inevitably going to shut down anyway when the luxury flats opposite are built and the residents starting moaning? Or is that another pub?



Seems to be happening in a few places according to this article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28838947


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## clandestino (Aug 27, 2014)

I phoned up Golfrate today because I'm still looking for a venue for the NYE party we've held at the Grosvenor for the last three years - any suggestions very welcome! - and the guy there told me that they would be putting in a new application to Lambeth. I asked when he thought the pub would reopen, and he said they weren't planning to reopen as a pub - that the building would be "put to retail". I think that's the phrase he used. I assume he means sold to another developer. 

So if you have any suggestions for venues for our NYE party, please say!


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

brixtonblade said:


> Seems to be happening in a few places according to this article:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28838947


The "Agent of Change" principle sounds broadly sensible - though quite difficult to prove in practice, for instance, e.g. if a sound system were beefed up / respositioned / turned up.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2014)

clandestino said:


> I phoned up Golfrate today because I'm still looking for a venue for the NYE party we've held at the Grosvenor for the last three years - any suggestions very welcome! - and the guy there told me that they would be putting in a new application to Lambeth. I asked when he thought the pub would reopen, and he said they weren't planning to reopen as a pub - that the building would be "put to retail". I think that's the phrase he used. I assume he means sold to another developer.
> 
> So if you have any suggestions for venues for our NYE party, please say!


What about that Brixton East place?


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## clandestino (Aug 27, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The "Agent of Change" principle sounds broadly sensible - though quite difficult to prove in practice, for instance, e.g. if a sound system were beefed up / respositioned / turned up.



Yes I think it sounds sensible too. It'll be interesting to see how it works out in Melbourne.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

clandestino said:


> I phoned up Golfrate today because I'm still looking for a venue for the NYE party we've held at the Grosvenor for the last three years - any suggestions very welcome! - and the guy there told me that they would be putting in a new application to Lambeth. I asked when he thought the pub would reopen, and he said they weren't planning to reopen as a pub - that the building would be "put to retail". I think that's the phrase he used. I assume he means sold to another developer.
> 
> So if you have any suggestions for venues for our NYE party, please say!


This was posted on B Buzz by a reader on the 19th Aug:


> Golfrate have already sent a surveyor in to measure the Grosvenor ground floor for “retail”.
> 
> If they get planning permission for the flats it’ll be a Tesco Metro in no time.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Rushy said:


> What about that Brixton East place?


It's not a club venue.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

Way over a 1,000 people have looked at the Grosvenor story on B Buzz in the last four hours. 

With that level of interest you'd really think there'd be a way to save the pub - except this is Golfrate we're dealing with and they're only interested in lining their own pockets.

Elderly publican forced to squat in his own home
Property developers' ‘ruthless’ rent rise forces pub landlord to take early retirement
Lewisham's only gay pub Two8Six closed down by Mendoza and Golfrate property companies
Greater powers are desperately needed to stop a "ruthless" developer letting several of Merton’s sites go to ruin, it was argued in Parliament this week.

And:


> Asif Aziz, the property magnate who owns the Trocadero, is being sued for $20m over claims that he defrauded a Lebanese businessman once alleged to be involved with the trade in African "blood diamonds".
> 
> Aziz is accused of illegally ramping the price of Golfrate Africa and Ovlas Trading, two Angolan food manufacturing businesses he sold in 2005, just before he bought the Trocadero, a vast building on London's Piccadilly Circus that houses shops, restaurants, a cinema and Funland, an indoor fairground.
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/.../Trocadero-owner-sued-for-20m-over-fraud.html


The Wikipedia page of Gofrate owner Asif Aziz seems to paint a very different picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asif_Aziz


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## SpamMisery (Aug 27, 2014)

So what would the upstairs be used for if the pub was retained? I assume it would have to be commercially advantageous for the owners to consider it?

[EDIT] or was it always going to remain a pub downstairs?


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## mikerobe (Aug 27, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm not sure why you're so confident given that they already own at least one working pub in the area.  Surely there's a possibility that may change if a financially agreeable proposal comes their way (given the rather emphatic nature of Lambeth's refusal)?



just wondered whether this might be of any use to interested parties?...The Ivy House in Nunhead was the first pub to be listed as a community asset, and a listing as such means that the community gets first shout at making an offer to own the asset.

http://www.ivyhousenunhead.com

a possibility for The Grosvenor? I guess it could be too late.


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## mikerobe (Aug 27, 2014)

sorry, this page explains the principal of the community 'right to buy' better, also describes the similarity between the Ivy House's recent predicament and that which the Grosvenor is currently in...
http://www.ivyhousenunhead.com/about.php


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## editor (Aug 27, 2014)

mikerobe said:


> just wondered whether this might be of any use to interested parties?...The Ivy House in Nunhead was the first pub to be listed as a community asset, and a listing as such means that the community gets first shout at making an offer to own the asset.
> 
> http://www.ivyhousenunhead.com
> 
> a possibility for The Grosvenor? I guess it could be too late.


With the landlord already gone, it's far too late, I fear.


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## Mr Retro (Aug 28, 2014)

Does anybody know if The Beehive in Stockwell is still open? I can't find anything about it online


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## boohoo (Aug 28, 2014)

Last time I went by there it was open - which was probably a couple of months ago.  Mr Retro


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## SarfLondoner (Aug 28, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The "Agent of Change" principle sounds broadly sensible - though quite difficult to prove in practice, for instance, e.g. if a sound system were beefed up / respositioned / turned up.



A lot of clubs i play at have been made to attach "noise restricters" to there sound systems, This stops the volume rising above the permitted levels.Even a slight gain of bass or mid range will automatically decrease the overall volume.  Lambeth have insisted that the venue must adhere to these measures or risk a license review.


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## clandestino (Aug 28, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> A lot of clubs i play at have been made to attach "noise restricters" to there sound systems, This stops the volume rising above the permitted levels.Even a slight gain of bass or mid range will automatically decrease the overall volume.  Lambeth have insisted that the venue must adhere to these measures or risk a license review.



The Canterbury Arms has a noise limiter thing. If the noise goes over a certain level, the electricity for the room just shuts down. You have to keep your eye on a set of lights on the back wall - if they stay in the red, that's it. I've tripped the doomsday shut down a couple of times in there, and it takes a few minutes to get the electricity turned back on. On one very lively night, the crowd just carried on singing the song anyway.


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## Rushy (Aug 28, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> A lot of clubs i play at have been made to attach "noise restricters" to there sound systems, This stops the volume rising above the permitted levels.Even a slight gain of bass or mid range will automatically decrease the overall volume.  Lambeth have insisted that the venue must adhere to these measures or risk a license review.


Are these local venues? Lambeth's noise control and licensing are pretty inconsistent about how they apply the rules. They certainly give people who have dealt with them the impression that they are pretty corrupt. Mass' licence required a limiter on each sound system but despite years of complaints after they upgraded the sound system they were never fitted. Yet smaller places and individuals get hammered on a single breach. Fridge Bar doesn't have a limiter either and until recently would blare music out the open doors until 5am mid week. At the end of the day, a limiter's sound levels are usually set by tests at the closest residential property so it seems a fairly pragmatic way of allowing places to stay open.


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## SarfLondoner (Aug 28, 2014)

clandestino said:


> The Canterbury Arms has a noise limiter thing. If the noise goes over a certain level, the electricity for the room just shuts down. You have to keep your eye on a set of lights on the back wall - if they stay in the red, that's it. I've tripped the doomsday shut down a couple of times in there, and it takes a few minutes to get the electricity turned back on. On one very lively night, the crowd just carried on singing the song anyway.



Ive seen the traffic lights system its a joke, The one i described above is no better as you have to drop the mid and bass to get the volume to an audible level,not great when you are playing roots music. Then you spend half of your set explaining to unhappy punters why you cant raise the volume.


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## SarfLondoner (Aug 28, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Are these local venues? Lambeth's noise control and licensing are pretty inconsistent about how they apply the rules. They certainly give people who have dealt with them the impression that they are pretty corrupt. Mass' licence required a limiter on each sound system but despite years of complaints after they upgraded the sound system they were never fitted. Yet smaller places and individuals get hammered on a single breach. Fridge Bar doesn't have a limiter either and until recently would blare music out the open doors until 5am mid week. At the end of the day, a limiter's sound levels are usually set by tests at the closest residential property so it seems a fairly pragmatic way of allowing places to stay open.


They are local and small in and around Brixton but since they opened (Apprx 2 years) the premises either side and above have been turned into flats in what was originally shops and a cafe.As soon as people moved in the complaints(many exagorated) started so the council insisted on sound controls and have been stern in enforcing this.The council originally issued a late entertainments license without a quibble nor any stipulation regarding noise,They have since added new requirements on noise levels and closing times.
If need be i will pm you the venue names.


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## Rushy (Aug 28, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> They are local and small in and around Brixton but since they opened (Apprx 2 years) the premises either side and above have been turned into flats in what was originally shops and a cafe.As soon as people moved in the complaints(many exagorated) started so the council insisted on sound controls and have been stern in enforcing this.The council originally issued a late entertainments license without a quibble nor any stipulation regarding noise,They have since added new requirements on noise levels and closing times.
> If need be i will pm you the venue names.


I'd have thought the Agent of Change Principle would apply in cases like this (if we had it here). This is likely to become more common place as the rules governing conversions of shops and offices into flats have been relaxed. the onus would be on the "Agent of Change" to install sound insulation, etc..


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## SarfLondoner (Aug 28, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I'd have thought the Agent of Change Principle would apply in cases like this (if we had it here). This is likely to become more common place as the rules governing conversions of shops and offices into flats have been relaxed. the onus would be on the "Agent of Change" to install sound insulation, etc..


I was going to add to my post that, the landlord of the flats has installed no sound proofing of any description but the venue has adhered to the councils wishes and as a result they have suffered financial losses because its no longer viable as a music venue.


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## Rushy (Aug 28, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> I was going to add to my post that, the landlord of the flats has installed no sound proofing of any description but the venue has adhered to the councils wishes and as a result they have suffered financial losses because its no longer viable as a music venue.


Building regs would require them to put something in but i don't think it would need to meet any more than normal resi standards. (Whether they put it in or not is a different matter).


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## clandestino (Aug 28, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Ive seen the traffic lights system its a joke, The one i described above is no better as you have to drop the mid and bass to get the volume to an audible level,not great when you are playing roots music. Then you spend half of your set explaining to unhappy punters why you cant raise the volume.



It's not that bad. It's more like the lights you get on a stereo. Loads of greens and then red at the right hand side. You can see the volume go up, and just have to make sure you don't stay in the red too long. It's not like it's super quiet in the greens, so I guess it's all fair enough. And, as I say, the few times I have tripped the shut down, we've had a brilliant singalong reaction from the crowd - I've almost been tempted to trip it more often!


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## editor (Aug 28, 2014)

clandestino said:


> It's not that bad. It's more like the lights you get on a stereo. Loads of greens and then red at the right hand side. You can see the volume go up, and just have to make sure you don't stay in the red too long. It's not like it's super quiet in the greens, so I guess it's all fair enough. And, as I say, the few times I have tripped the shut down, we've had a brilliant singalong reaction from the crowd - I've almost been tempted to trip it more often!


The one in the Alma in Crystal Palace was awful - it was set barely above conversation level and would trip out if it so much as heard a slightly loud drumbeat.


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## SarfLondoner (Aug 28, 2014)

clandestino said:


> It's not that bad. It's more like the lights you get on a stereo. Loads of greens and then red at the right hand side. You can see the volume go up, and just have to make sure you don't stay in the red too long. It's not like it's super quiet in the greens, so I guess it's all fair enough. And, as I say, the few times I have tripped the shut down, we've had a brilliant singalong reaction from the crowd - I've almost been tempted to trip it more often!


I played at a place that had one on the wall facing me. It was a slightly smaller version of a real set of traffic lights with a smiley on the green light and an angry face on the red.


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## SarfLondoner (Aug 28, 2014)




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## clandestino (Aug 28, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> View attachment 60189



Haha! That would be rubbish. 

This is more like the top strip of these lights...


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## clandestino (Aug 28, 2014)

So you see it flickering up and down as the song plays.


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## SarfLondoner (Sep 18, 2014)

editor If there are more appropriate threads for this to be posted feel free.
https://www.change.org/p/sajid-javi...pK4mtaQxZAH1qEvYaHsz5SRhtN2A2R0VrxZJ2jqW6aRAZ


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## editor (Mar 17, 2015)

PLEASE lodge your objections now and try to save something of this wonderful pub:
Developers have another go at turning Stockwell’s Grosvenor pub into luxury flats, with just two days left for objections


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## editor (Mar 20, 2015)

So fucking sad.

Heartbreaking images of Stockwell Grosvenor pub: stripped out and trashed by developers


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## CH1 (Mar 21, 2015)

I was told that there was a front page article quoting the Brixton Society chair on the SLP on the issue, though I haven't seen it.


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## CH1 (Mar 22, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I was told that there was a front page article quoting the Brixton Society chair on the SLP on the issue, though I haven't seen it.


Got the quote (very strange subsidiary headline from the SLP editor though..)


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## lefteri (Mar 22, 2015)

SarfLondoner said:


> Ive seen the traffic lights system its a joke, The one i described above is no better as you have to drop the mid and bass to get the volume to an audible level,not great when you are playing roots music. Then you spend half of your set explaining to unhappy punters why you cant raise the volume.



They work in conjunction with a decibel meter installed outside the venue, the place I played that had one, every time the door was left open a few minutes the fucking thing tripped - they're a real nightmare to work with


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## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

Fucking brilliant news: 
Grosvenor pub in Stockwell listed as Asset of Community Value as CAMRA calls for pub to reopen


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## clandestino (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Fucking brilliant news:
> Grosvenor pub in Stockwell listed as Asset of Community Value as CAMRA calls for pub to reopen



YESSSSS! Great news!


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## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

clandestino said:


> YESSSSS! Great news!


Shame that those fucking evil cunts at golfrate eagerly trashed the entire interior within minutes of getting their grasping paws on the place.


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## Twattor (Oct 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Fucking brilliant news:
> Grosvenor pub in Stockwell listed as Asset of Community Value as CAMRA calls for pub to reopen



Golfrate have appealed the ACV listing.  Apparently they want to turn the pub into [IRONY] a co-op. [/IRONY]

CAMRA are preparing their rebuttal for the review hearing; information to be submitted today.  Not sure when the hearing is though.


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## cuppa tee (Oct 15, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Apparently they want to turn the pub into [IRONY] a co-op. [/IRONY]



one of these ?


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## Ol Nick (Oct 16, 2015)

How come the Marquis of Lorne is still going? That's what astonishes me.


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## Twattor (Dec 1, 2015)

CAMRA tell me that the developer's appeal against the ACV listing of the Grosvenor was rejected.  Pub is now listed as an asset of community value.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Twattor said:


> CAMRA tell me that the developer's appeal against the ACV listing of the Grosvenor was rejected.  Pub is now listed as an asset of community value.


Have you got a link for that? Be good to have some cheer to spread around for a change.


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## Twattor (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Have you got a link for that? Be good to have some cheer to spread around for a change.



It came through as a pdf attachment to an email.

Edited to delete attachment.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Twattor said:


> It came through as a pdf attachment to an email.


Bloody hell, there's a lot of legal nitpicking in there!


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## Twattor (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Bloody hell, there's a lot of legal nitpicking in there!


 
Yeah, but it's an appeal.  I'm going to take it down now as not sure how confidential it is so probably shouldn't have shared...


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 1, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> How come the Marquis of Lorne is still going? That's what astonishes me.


Because it's a viable, money-making business and the landlord doesn't need to sell the (listed) building.


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## gdubz (Dec 2, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> How come the Marquis of Lorne is still going? That's what astonishes me.


Taytos


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## gdubz (Dec 2, 2015)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Because it's a viable, money-making business and the landlord doesn't need to sell the (listed) building.


He's already sold all his other ones (woodcock a etc round here) but does at least still run one that he lives in, in west Ken. Still the Taytos mind.


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## editor (Dec 3, 2015)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Because it's a viable, money-making business and the landlord doesn't need to sell the (listed) building.


Loads of viable, money making pubs have been flogged off to developers. Thaaaaat's capitalism for you!


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## editor (Nov 16, 2016)

New planning application gone in


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## Cooper42 (Nov 17, 2016)

I want to know what needs to happen to ensure The Grovesnor is reopened and protected as a pub. 

Am concerned that Pending Section 106 Obligation will mean that the plans are likely to be approved this time.

Plus the people already living in the new flats on the other side of Sidney Road will probably lodge noise complaints anyway


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## editor (Apr 4, 2017)

Just been sent this. Anyone know anything?



> Hi there, I noticed yesterday there are workmen in the Grosvenor pub
> in Sydney Road Stockwell and the under offer sign has come down. Any
> word on what's going to happen to it? The bar is totally gutted.


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## snowy_again (Apr 4, 2017)

No, but that reminds me that the shop that was Mango Landin' also has an 'under offer' sign on it.


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## clandestino (May 16, 2017)

Received a letter today about another planning application for The Grosvenor. A rear side extension, part 1, part 2 storeys, for five "serviced units" - is that flats?


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## clandestino (May 16, 2017)

It was a physical letter - application reference 17/01861/FUL


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## clandestino (May 16, 2017)

Comments to be made by June 1.


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## Twattor (May 16, 2017)

clandestino said:


> Received a letter today about another planning application for The Grosvenor. A rear side extension, part 1, part 2 storeys, for five "serviced units" - is that flats?



No.  Technically it is the class that hotels and boarding houses fall into.  Residential accommodation is C3.  I'd be interested to know what their plan is in the longer term - Airbnb? I don't know how easy it is to change use from C1 to C3 retrospectively; this might be a foot in the door tactic.  The planning application shows them as "market residential" units.

I'd also be interested in their draft heads of terms for the proposed lease, which isn't available with the application.  This purports to show how the occupation wouldn't adversely affect a viable business below. Maybe occupants of serviced units don't accrue the same rights, or maybe if occupiers are short term lets they won't have time to see through a complaint.

link to application here: 17/01861/FUL     |              Erection of a part 1, part 2 storey rear /side extension to existing public house at ground floor level (Use Class A4) and to existing ancillary accommodation at first floor level to provide 5 serviced units (Use Class C1) at first and second floor levels, together with alterations to the fenestrations and the provision of refuse, recycling and cycle storages.                  |                                                                      The Grosvenor Arms 17 Sidney Road London SW9 0TP


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## editor (May 30, 2017)

Article here: 
Councillors and locals object to latest plan to turn the popular Stockwell Grosvenor pub into flats

*Lodge your objections to the proposals here.*

It would be great to get this pub back.


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## editor (Aug 8, 2017)

So it seems that JHD Bars (who they?) want to taker over the Grosvenor if I've understood this document. Can anyone clarify?

https://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onl...9/pdf/17_01861_FUL-HEADS_OF_TERMS-1900280.pdf

This seems to be the guy behind the venture
Online Services - Company Summary
Hamna Wakaf Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth and Another: FTTGRC 19 Jul 2016 - swarb.co.uk


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## CH1 (Aug 8, 2017)

editor said:


> So it seems that JHD Bars (who they?) want to taker over the Grosvenor if I've understood this document. Can anyone clarify?
> 
> https://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onl...9/pdf/17_01861_FUL-HEADS_OF_TERMS-1900280.pdf
> 
> ...


Just to alarm you - the person behind JHD Bars seems to be James Hopkinson, whose company address is given as 20-22 Wenlock Road London N1 7GU

Don't know anything at all about Mr Hopkinson, but his registered address is flagged up by Companies House itself as being connected with "bogus multi million pound companies forced into liquidation. High Court orders six more bogus multi-million pound companies into liquidation - GOV.UK

One really should be more careful with one's company formations people!


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## CH1 (Aug 8, 2017)

editor JHD Bars Ltd has called up share capital of £2.00


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## editor (Sep 5, 2017)

If I've read this right, there's been another planning refusal for the Grosvenor owners. Can anyone clarify?


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## lefteri (Sep 5, 2017)

editor said:


> If I've read this right, there's been another planning refusal for the Grosvenor owners. Can anyone clarify?
> 
> View attachment 115127


Dunno but the refurb seems to be going strong when I've passed a couple of times in the last few weeks


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## CH1 (Oct 10, 2017)

editor lefteri 
Haven't had time to look up the planning appeal result, but from this CAMRA email it seems the developer has now got everything they wanted:

From: Geoff Strawbridge
Sent: 10 October, 2017 15:43

Subject: END OF THE ROAD FOR THE GROSVENOR
Rex,
Sadly predictable, three years since the pub was so thoroughly gutted that nobody was likely to pay the asking price. Equally predictable is that once they’ve got the flats occupied, as in the case of the Beehive in Crossford Street, they’ll find no takers for the ‘pub’ and eventually get Condition 3 overturned. For that matter the ground floor could foreseeably be converted to car parking for the residents above. A classic Trojan Horse con in the making and a slap in the teeth for the Planning Applications Committee which had belatedly stood firm in support of their updated pub protection policy when they realised at last what was going on all over the borough.
I think we did all we could along the way. Had the local music lovers remained passionate and vocal, there might just have been a chance. As it is, the prohibition on live music in the pub runs very much against the trend of policy towards adoption of the ‘Agent of Change’ principle. It might help if someone could tell the Planning Inspectorate about that.
Cheers!
Geoff.
Geoff Strawbridge

CAMRA Greater London Regional Director

Pubs Officer, CAMRA SW London Branch


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## editor (Oct 10, 2017)

CH1 said:


> editor lefteri
> Haven't had time to look up the planning appeal result, but from this CAMRA email it seems the developer has now got everything they wanted:
> 
> From: Geoff Strawbridge
> ...


Is it OK to publish this letter? Or can you give me his email so I can ask?

I'm fucking gutted that these scumbags destroyed a beautiful pub.


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## CH1 (Oct 10, 2017)

editor said:


> Is it OK to publish this letter? Or can you give me his email so I can ask?
> 
> I'm fucking gutted that these scumbags destroyed a beautiful pub.


I removed the circulation list as some were email addresses.
I was hoping this would be OK, but I will pm you.


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## lefteri (Oct 10, 2017)

CH1 said:


> editor lefteri
> Haven't had time to look up the planning appeal result, but from this CAMRA email it seems the developer has now got everything they wanted:
> 
> From: Geoff Strawbridge
> ...


Fuck that's a thoroughly depressing read


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## editor (Oct 11, 2017)

Gentrification 1 Community 0 

Developers win again as the Grosvenor pub in Stockwell is lost forever

So fucked off about this.


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## editor (Feb 11, 2019)

It's coming back!!!!

Brixton’s Grosvenor Arms public house to reopen in early March 2019


Chat about this on the new thread -  The Grosvenor to reopen in March 2019!


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