# St David's Day - COUNTER DEMO



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

As we know over the last few years the nationalists have stepped up their attempts to impose conformity and their bigotted ideology on our locale, they will be using St David's Day to impose the idea that Wales is a  nation cosily united - rich and poor - against English oppression and waving their flags. They will be attempting to construct a 'welsh identity' that never existed and various other ideas that mystify social reality, class division and block the forming of genuine grassroots culture based on solidarity and diy principles.

It's time to organise a class war counter parade stating clearly -

No nations! No borders!
Internationalism and solidarity!
The working class has no country!
Somebody welsh on the minimum wage has more in common with an english or polish worker than a welsh millionaire!
We will create our own culture from below that is fluid and dynamic not have some fake culture based on nationalism, patriotism and other authoritarian and servile crap forced upon us.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2008)

Sorry but I'll be getting happily drunk at the Offline St David's special in Brixton. 

I don't think you're going to get very far with your campaign, to be honest. After years of being made to feel second class citizens in a third rate country, most Welsh people I know rather like Wales' new-found confidence.


----------



## osterberg (Feb 12, 2008)

I'm sure this will lead to an intelligent , even tempered debate .


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

editor said:


> I don't think you're going to get very far with your campaign, to be honest. After years of being made to feel second class citizens in a third rate country, most Welsh people I know rather like Wales' new-found confidence.



Editor highlights very well how nationalism is an opiate, something that dopes us into a herd mentality and coheres us around a group identity in a somewhat fascistic way rather than liberating people and empowering them to take control of their lives and form genuine communities of solidarity from below.

Child poverty is massive in Wales - think how many families fall apart because of this pressure, how many life opportunities denied. Actually as workers, we are all second rate citizens and no amount of nationalist crap giving us some mystical bullshit is going to compensate for this. Isn't this the function of nationalism - to dope people from changing the world and seeing things as they are?

Karl Marx's description of the nexus of racism and nationalism as an anti-working class ideology is apt. Nationalism gives people a "psychological wage". Unfortunately unlike real wages this psychological wage only exists between your ears. 

Nationalism comforts people, it makes them feel more secure, it makes welsh poor people to think that they are part of a common group that includes everybody from the millionaire in the penthouse in Cardiff Bay to the estate on Ely rather than looking squarely at the facts that there is a basic antagonism in our society between those of us who work and create the wealth of society and the elite who skim the cream off our wealth and leave us the crumbs from the table. In this sense, the creation of an illusion of a common group actually is an obstacle to creating a genuine common group and society where everyone can be equal and participate.

To paraphrase Marx: To call on people to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of nationalism is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears [the poverty of everyday life that most working people experience] of which nationalism is the halo. 

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of nationalism disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. . .

Nationalism? No thanks!
Class War? Yes please!


----------



## Belushi (Feb 12, 2008)

Heh, how may are going to turn up for this?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 12, 2008)

When is it?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 12, 2008)

Are the English allowed to come?


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 12, 2008)

Fair play. But to be honest if you want to organise against borders there are more pressing cases and more important things than shouting at a bunch of over excitable romantics. 

Like the regular pickets of the home office building on Newport road (there was one today).

You really like using anarchist slogans though don't you Udo? Typical Leninist tactic...

No Borders, No Nations, indeed...


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

Additional slogan:
STOP THE GENTRIFICATION OF PONTCANNA BY THE MEDIA SET!


----------



## llantwit (Feb 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Additional slogan:
> STOP THE GENTRIFICATION OF PONTCANNA BY THE MEDIA SET!


Be realistic: Demand the Impossible!!


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Be realistic: Demand the Impossible!!



DEPORT PLAID AND ALL NATIONALISTS TO ENGLAND!


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Editor highlights very well how nationalism is an opiate, something that dopes us into a herd mentality and coheres us around a group identity in a somewhat fascistic way rather than liberating people and empowering them to take control of their lives and form genuine communities of solidarity from below.


Oh, I dunno. I rather like singing along to the rugby. Something tells me an awful lot of Welsh people feel the same too, but maybe they're all on opiates.

Will you be taking photos at this demo?


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 12, 2008)

Kill the rich and eat their babies!


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 12, 2008)

I quite like the rugby, but there have been times when I would have coped better with the performances I have endured had I got some opiates inside me...


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> I quite like the rugby, but there have been times when I would have coped better with the performances I have endured had I got some opiates inside me...



sport is one of the biggest capitalist rackets on the planet and at school was based on national socialist ideas of the body and fitness.
When Mao wanted to get fit he didn't run around with a ball he swam the yangtze river and went on a long march


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> You really like using anarchist slogans though don't you Udo? Typical Leninist tactic...
> 
> No Borders, No Nations, indeed...



Wasn't aware that no borders was a specifically anarchist slogan, a more general anti-capitalist one I think. While I remain faithful to the event of October 1917, I don't define myself as a Leninist, more of a libertarian marxist.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> sport is one of the biggest capitalist rackets on the planet and at school was based on national socialist ideas of the body and fitness.


I rather enjoyed it myself. And we only got paid in half time oranges.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Will you be taking photos



No, guns and molotovs!


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> sport is one of the biggest capitalist rackets on the planet and at school was based on national socialist ideas of the body and fitness.



Ah, now we're getting to the bottom of this, he was rubbish at sports at school, a true social outcast.

Tis nice to be told that I'm a biggot for feeling Welsh.

Tell you what, the slogan of 'One World, One Nation (or what ever you;ll be calling it' really freaks me out.  Does diversity not agree with you then?


----------



## 1927 (Feb 12, 2008)

Tell me Udo, is there anything in your life that you do not view through political glasses? I cannot envisage a life so obsessed that everything in it becomes politicised, and that is the impression you give me by your posts. I am sure I could find one somehwere which was not political but I doubt it would be easy.

Mind you atleast you have some replies to this thread of yours which is somewhat unusual.


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 12, 2008)

Well that's fucking great innit. In Udo's socialist utopia we can't have rugby. And your a nazi if you disagree. That's fucking wonderful, no wonder people are flocking to your cause. 

Will crap wanky arty poetry bollocks be compulsory? 

Libertarian my arse! your no such thing!


----------



## 1927 (Feb 12, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> Well that's fucking great innit. In Udo's socialist utopia we can't have rugby. And your a nazi if you disagree. That's fucking wonderful, no wonder people are flocking to your cause.
> 
> Will crap wanky arty poetry bollocks be compulsory?
> 
> Libertarian my arse! your no such thing!



You said it so much more eloquently than I could have managed!


----------



## 1927 (Feb 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> As we know over the last few years the nationalists have stepped up their attempts to impose conformity and their bigotted ideology on our locale, they will be using St David's Day to impose the idea that Wales is a  nation cosily united - rich and poor - against English oppression and waving their flags. They will be attempting to construct a 'welsh identity' that never existed and various other ideas that mystify social reality, class division and block the forming of genuine grassroots culture based on solidarity and diy principles.
> 
> It's time to organise a class war counter parade stating clearly -
> 
> ...



Thing is Udo I dont see anybody imposing any Welshness on me. I drink in the pub where the organising committee have their meetings in the bar, but not once have they tried to impose anything on me, they haven't even told me about the parade! If you want to see what the people of Wales want in terms of welshness just be in a ny pub a week on saturday, or two weeks after that. The pubs would have given you a fair idea the last two saturdays too. The people of Wales actually enjoy getting together waving their daffodils, leeks and wearing their red shirts with their faces painted with dragons. I hardly think this is invented welshness that never existed and as for mystifying social reality, you sir seem to be the only person mystified! This is our culture and their is nothing fake about it, by stating that it being forced upon us you rather insult the intelligence of the populus in deciding for itself what it wants to believe in, which is plainly not the politics which you believe in and would wish to impose upon the rest of us!


----------



## Sweaty Betty (Feb 12, 2008)

I loves a good leek pie on a sunday watching Dr Who......


----------



## niclas (Feb 13, 2008)

Much as I detest the St David's Day parade's vacuous flag-waving, I'm tempted to organise a counter-demo to the counter-demo... 
 Slogans: "No to Brit left social imperialism, for a Welsh workers' alternative" and "26-19 - who beat the English?"


----------



## Sweaty Betty (Feb 13, 2008)

I hate flag waving full stop, but having a cultural identity is completely different...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Did this anti union event pick up any recruits?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo, i've heard you described in much cruder terms than 'libertarian Marxist', but there you go.

This is a pointless argument. Wales exists as a nation because millions of people believe it exists. It isn't a topic up for political debate it is a fact of life and as far as i'm aware we like it that way. What's so bad about the history, dragons, myths etc? Keep the dream alive.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Is he a freegan marxer?

Marxers should be aware of what marx said about ideas becomong material forces when they grasp the masses.


----------



## osterberg (Feb 13, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> ...In Udo's socialist utopia we can't have rugby.



 Sign me up!


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2008)

Leave our rugby alone!


(least while we're winning and beating England)


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 13, 2008)

well the reference to sport was a joke.

But we have to ask where this flag waving is leading:


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 13, 2008)

Ben Bore said:


> Tis nice to be told that I'm a bigot for feeling Welsh.



Why can't you think for yourself and create your own identity? Why disolve your individuality into the collective? If you want to be a sheep for the rest of your life then go ahead . . .




			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> This is a pointless argument. Wales exists as a nation because millions of people believe it exists. It isn't a topic up for political debate it is a fact of life and as far as i'm aware we like it that way. What's so bad about the history, dragons, myths etc? Keep the dream alive.



Imagine no countries, Lewislewis, I wonder if you can?
Nothing to kill or die for - a brotherhood (and sisterhood) of man (and woman)


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Why can't you think for yourself and create your own identity? Why disolve your individuality into the collective?






			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> While I remain faithful to the event of October 1917



Yes thats right, individuality. Ahem.




			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> don't define myself as a Leninist, more of a libertarian marxist.



So how far into the 1920s do you think you would have made it, as a 'libertarian marxist', after the 'event of October 1917'.??

I can just see you being put up against a wall, while telling the firing squad that its all an historical necessity and that you quite understand.

And you've started conflating Nazism with 'other-things-you-don't-agree-with' again


Poor show.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 13, 2008)

skyscraper101 said:


> Are the English allowed to come?



Definitely, being told how we should feel about ourselves, by English people, would make a refreshing change.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 13, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> Yes thats right, individuality. Ahem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look I make no apology with drawing a link between nationalism and national socialism. You see nationalism divides people, it is akin to communalism, it is akin to sectarianism, it is akin to this whole mindset of superiority. 

As to my support for revolution, Russia in 1917 was more democratic than Britain in 2007, though within a year the dream had withered, I remain a supporter of the ideas of democratically controlled workplaces and radical redistribution of weath and power that was spearheaded by working people in the upsurge of October and workers self-management.

On the question of individuality, I follow the philosophy of marx - "the free development of ALL is the condition for the free development of the individual". I believe in community - the question is what kind of community do we need?
One that divides people on racial, ethnic and national lines or one that affirms our commonality and is based on genuine solidarity and struggle for a better world?


----------



## osterberg (Feb 13, 2008)

Drawing a link between fluffy Welsh nationalism and the Nazis is a good way of offending people and really winding them up but then you were always so diplomatic,Udo.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 13, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> Definitely, being told how we should feel about ourselves, by English people, would make a refreshing change.



This is the point, I see regular English people as my brothers and sisters and define people by their deed rather than their country, nation or any other crap.

In capitalist societies where human life is shaped by the drive for profits aren't we all told how to think and feel about ourselves by the media, by the church, by the school, by society, by the machine?

Join the St David's Day Parade:


----------



## bendeus (Feb 13, 2008)

I actually know one of the organisers, and a more pleasant, laid-back, non-rabid, non-Pontcanna dwelling chap I'm hard pushed to remember meeting. I think he wants the day to be a celebration of a dwindling but hardy culture, certainly not a nationalist call to arms.

I would add that I can barely recall a more pompous, po-faced original post than the one above. 

Would you suggest we spent the day in darkened cellars having earnest meetings about da politiksz, instead?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo, what about people defining themselves by their skin colour such as the Black Panthers? Or the Palestinian movements you admire, who unless i'm much mistaken are nationalist in nature? Or the resistance to British colonialism in Ireland who, unless i'm mistaken, were quite sure that they were of Irish nationality?
Do you think they were/are sheep as well?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> This is the point, I see regular English people as my brothers and sisters and define people by their deed rather than their country, nation or any other crap.



But they like morris dancing...

Which reminds me, I saw a newspaper advert the other day that advertised Morris Dancing as 'part of British culture'. Eugh.


----------



## Brockway (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Look I make no apology with drawing a link between nationalism and national socialism. You see nationalism divides people, it is akin to communalism, it is akin to sectarianism, it is akin to this whole mindset of superiority.



Rubbish. It doesn't have to be about superiority at all. It can be about equality. What about the Indian nationalists who wanted to boot out the British Raj - did they consider themselves superior or did they just want to kick the colonizer out? What about the Polish nationalists who campaigned against being part of a Soviet empire - were they national socialists or did they just feel their country had a right to exist?

You're English aren't you Udo? Listen thanks for coming here and telling us that we have no right to exist as a country. Twonk.


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 13, 2008)

Brockway said:


> You're English aren't you Udo?



I'd say he's a British nationalist


----------



## Brockway (Feb 13, 2008)

British is English - always has been.

I'd rather live in an independent, left-wing, multicultural Wales than be permanently disenfranchised under the English Tory jackboot in the colonial construct that is 'Britain'.

Udo may perceive himself to be some kind of revolutionary but from where I'm standing he's just another Tarquin from England telling us how to run our affairs. He's not the first and I'm sure he won't be the last. Been going on for centuries.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 13, 2008)

Brockway said:


> he's just another Tarquin from England


 
What, he puts class consciousness before nationalism?? Bastard must be English!


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> This is the point, I see regular English people as my brothers and sisters and define people by their deed rather than their country, nation or any other crap.



I understand the point Udo and broadly speaking its a view most of us share - and if Plaid et al were some kind of headcase organisation it would be fair enough.

But as a pretty moderate nationalism in a country which has almost seen its language disappear and has found itself historically on the margins of British life, (not on the Union Jack, an Principality of English Princes, a Tory Minister for Wales ludicrously mouthing 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau', as just a few examples of the snubs and as many welsh people see it, insults) seeking to redress some of this is no bad thing, particularly as it is driving the revival of our language. 

It doesn't mean that its just national socialism in waiting - and conflating the two is insulting and foolishly provocative.


----------



## niclas (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> This is the point, I see regular English people as my brothers and sisters and define people by their deed rather than their country, nation or any other crap.
> 
> In capitalist societies where human life is shaped by the drive for profits aren't we all told how to think and feel about ourselves by the media, by the church, by the school, by society, by the machine?



Bad day at the barricades, Udo? 

This is terrible - you regard English people (not workers) as your brothers and sisters... what Branson and all those billionaires? You define people by their deed rather than their relationship to the forces of production.

The Nazi symbolism in a previous post was probably as low as any Kinnockite or Welsh Mirror headline has gone (and that's saying something). It crossed a line. Like all the crap Brit lefties who come to Wales to organise solidarity with the Sandinistas, Chavez, Palestinians, Basques and Irish, they draw the line at any demonstration of national identity in lil ol' Wales. National identity is something that scares the pants off the Brit left, which is why they feel they have to smear it so desperately.

You're no marxist - you're a member of the Anti-Taffy League. Kinnock, Abse, Touhig would be proud of you.


----------



## 1927 (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> well the reference to sport was a joke.
> 
> But we have to ask where this flag waving is leading:



Fuck me, that looks just like Pontcanna last weekend! Udo I take it all back, you do indeed have your finger on the pulse.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 13, 2008)

niclas said:


> you regard English people (not workers) as your brothers and sisters... what Branson and all those billionaires?


 
Yep, Branson and all those other billionaires was evidently what was meant by 'regular people'. 

I guess there's probably a few English people out there who aren't billionaires - but that serves the fuckers right for not cashing in on the fortunes Welsh coal had to offer in the early 20th century!


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo, if you are English - as some of the others have suggested (I don't care either way as it goes) but I would seriously examine your decision to attend this 'counter-demo' (I'm _genuinely asking _here). Don't you think it will smack of telling the natives what to do? Just a little?


----------



## chilango (Feb 13, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Udo, what about people defining themselves by their skin colour such as the Black Panthers? Or the Palestinian movements you admire, who unless i'm much mistaken are nationalist in nature? Or the resistance to British colonialism in Ireland who, unless i'm mistaken, were quite sure that they were of Irish nationality?
> Do you think they were/are sheep as well?




or indeed the Zapatista imagery beloved on the blog he pushes...

Ejercito Zapatista de *Liberacion Nacional*.


Ahem.


----------



## chilango (Feb 13, 2008)

...and, Udo, are you also against the Notting Hill Carnival?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> As to my support for revolution, Russia in 1917 was more democratic than Britain in 2007, though within a year the dream had withered, I remain a supporter of the ideas of democratically controlled workplaces and radical redistribution of weath and power that was spearheaded by working people in the upsurge of October and workers self-management.



As much as I have respect for the events of 1917 and excitement at what they represented, isn't the fact that it lasted less than a year the whole point? The things you listed there are noble goals but if they did, in some kind of miracle, happen, then why would we cease to be Welsh? 

Welshness is a nationality bred amongst the grassroots, not enforced on us from above. You need to read 'When Was Wales' by Gwyn Alf Williams.

Wales was the first working class nation in the world and that is still reflected in mindsets and attitudes here today. So yes though there will inevitably be bosses and millionaires, the Welsh nation puts workers first. And we get rugby and football too. 

I now feel cheated that I thought it was cool when the Respect party was using the slogan 'Another Wales is Possible', that one of their leading cadres now feels Wales shouldn't exist.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 14, 2008)

some excellent posts above. ffs udo, carry on down this road and it WILL affect your credibility and negate your future press releases and campaigns here in Cardiff. 

wrong target and kind of shows you up as a wadical wevowutionary trying to take over da Wales. "your" day will not come, however hard you push it and the use of CAPS LOCK.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo, you should also take a look at the growth of 'Russianism' in the early soviet union - despite the initial granting of freedoms to outlying republics. It rapidly became Russia is best - because it was the seat of the revolution - and languages and practices of Ukrainians and other minorities were looked down on by many Bolsheviks - despite a formal commitment to equality.

If I remember rightly Tony Cliff writes about this in his biog of Lenin - and mentions an encounter between two Ukranian bolsheviks - one addresses the other in their native tongue, the second replies

"Speak to me in a proper language" (i.e. Russian)

Many welsh people would see this as a pretty telling encounter - with parallels to this thread.


----------



## osterberg (Feb 14, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> ....I now feel cheated that I thought it was cool when the Respect party was using the slogan 'Another Wales is Possible', that one of their leading cadres now feels Wales shouldn't exist.


 As a not very leading cadre in Respect I have no problem with Welsh people enjoying St. David's Day . Udo isn't our boss you know  .
 This counter-demo only exists inside his head . He's trying to wind you all up .


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

osterberg said:


> As a not very leading cadre in Respect I have no problem with Welsh people enjoying St. David's Day . Udo isn't our boss you know  .
> This counter-demo only exists inside his head . He's trying to wind you all up .



Can't you have him shot?


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 14, 2008)

Hope I don't get a row for push my blog, but George Galloway made his (and probably Respect's) views about minority languages and cultures clear recently in his column in the Daily Record:
George Galloway shows his Respect


----------



## osterberg (Feb 14, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> Can't you have him shot?



 That would be cruel.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

osterberg said:


> That would be cruel.



you and your 'valid reasons'. 

cheers


----------



## osterberg (Feb 14, 2008)

Ben Bore said:


> Hope I don't get a row for push my blog, but George Galloway made his (and probably Respect's) views about minority languages and cultures clear recently in his column in the Daily Record:
> George Galloway shows his Respect


 Good thing Galloway's not in Respect anymore,is it?
Though I think class is more likely to define your place in society than your birth place I'd defend the right of Welsh people to speak and campaign for their own language and to celebrate St.David's day.
 I've no opposition to more devolution or independence if that's what people want . Why should I want to prevent the break-up of the British state?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 14, 2008)

Brockway said:


> You're English aren't you Udo? Listen thanks for coming here and telling us that we have no right to exist as a country. Twonk.



In the final line we get right into the really nasty side of nationalism. Let's break it down to brass tacks:

What Brockway is saying, in effect, is rather than politics being about rational debate which everyone can engage in - if you're a Black, Asian or English citizen of Wales, even if you've lived here for thirty years - shut up! You are de facto excluded from the debate. You have no right to a voice. There you see the racism that is inherrent in his ideology.

You see how stupid nationalism is when you hear arguments for a Welsh parliament that say things like "it's an insult to Wales that Scotland has a parliament and Wales doesn't". No! The only argument from this side of the house for a Welsh parliament is based on the interests of Welsh workers not some appeal to cod patriotism. If having a parliament with tax raising powers can advance the material situation of Welsh workers, then socialists should support it, this is the sole criterion not an appeal to some mystical racial consciousness


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 14, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Udo, what about people defining themselves by their skin colour such as the Black Panthers? Or the Palestinian movements you admire, who unless i'm much mistaken are nationalist in nature? Or the resistance to British colonialism in Ireland who, unless i'm mistaken, were quite sure that they were of Irish nationality?
> Do you think they were/are sheep as well?



"Cultural nationalism, or pork chop nationalism, as I sometimes call it, is basically a problem of having the wrong political perspective. It seems to be a reaction instead of responding to political oppression. The cultural nationalists are concerned with returning to the old African culture and thereby regaining their identity and freedom. In other words, they feel that the African culture will automatically bring political freedom. Many times cultural nationalists fall into line as reactionary nationalists." - Huey Newton

I find it rather insulting when nats in Wales try to draw some comparison between countries like Ireland and India that suffered occupation and Wales - especially as I'm the child of immigrants from those countries and members of my own family took part iin those national liberation movements. My grand-uncle was press secretary for the Indian PM, out of interest.

As to the Black Panthers, they were an organisation founded among opressed black people in the US, but I think you will discover that many of the leaders were extremely hostile to what they dubbed "porkchop nationalism".

Huey Newton famously declined the slogan, "Black Power" preferring the more politically explicit, "All Power to the People!"

Fred Hampton once famously clarified, "Political power does not flow from the sleeve of a dashiki; political power flows from the barrel of a gun." 

Read Seize the Time by Bobby Seale, he describes the journey from black nationalism to an organisation that would stand up for all oppressed people including gay people. If the Black Panthers were just a "Black thing," then why did they have all that international news in their newspaper, offer to fight for the Viet Cong, call for Third World solidarity, try to form an electoral alliance with radical whites, articles, support their Latino and Puerto Rican, and identify with revolutions in Algeria, Cuba and China?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 14, 2008)

By the way, there was a somewhat dumb comment here that I was a British nationalist, this really reflects the stupidity of nationalists! 

They think that if you're not a Welsh nationalist, you must be a British nationalist. They can't get it into their thick skulls that you might see reality in very different terms to that of nations (incidentally the nation state is not natural it's a very recent appearance in history).

I define a nation as a group held together by a hatred of its neighbours and a mistaken notion of its past.

Of course, we need to distinguish between two main nationalisms: There's the nationalism of the imperialist countries like Britain and America, and the nationalism of colonised countries like (in the past) Vietnam, Ireland, India and Iraq today. Welsh nationalism doesn't fit into either category.

But even if we support national liberation struggles in places like Palestine or Ireland, does this mean that we should be uncritical of their nationalism?

Well, actually consider: James Connolly, on the eve of the Easter Rising in 1916 famously warned his men that if they were victorious to *keep hold of their rifles *because the nationalists were fighting for different things to us - we want political AND economic liberty - he said.

Isn't it the case, that most national liberation movements are led by middle class leaders who screw their own people post-liberation and just want to be a new ruling class?

You see it with the PLO, Yasser Arafat and the leadership didn't emerge from the refugee camps but were predominantly wealthy businessmen who had their own niche in the gulf states. Hence their politics of attempting to court money from the Arab regimes rather than mobilising the Arab masses to smash their own ruling classes - hence, the current impasse of the palestinian movement.

Actually what is needed in these countries are socialist movements that will oppose the ideology of nationalism to make sure that when they get liberation the situation of the poor and workers does change.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 14, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I now feel cheated that I thought it was cool when the Respect party was using the slogan 'Another Wales is Possible', that one of their leading cadres now feels Wales shouldn't exist.



Lewislewis you don't get it, we want a world without borders!

To turn to Niclas' pompous drivel that I am a Brit-left nationalist or some sort of imperialist. Your self-righteousness would carry more credibility if the Plaid-Left weren't united in supporting the UK (let me repeat - the UK!!!!!) Military Academy in Wales - some anti-imperialism, you hypocrite!

 Adam Price, Leanne Wood, Ieuan Wyn Jones and all your elected representatives who support the Academy are cruel men and women without shame. I think it's high time that we had a world where never again was £14 billion spent to incinerate a child!

And while we're at it, let's just mention that quarter of that sum would be enough to eliminate child poverty everywhere in Britain. Eliminating child poverty or murdering children? Plaid Cymru have made their choice!

Adam Price calls Welsh nationalism a national liberation struggle, but Plaid advocate a militarised Wales with nuclear power stations that will be in hoc to foreign multinationals. Where exactly is the liberation?

But turning to more serious matters: Are Plaid Nazis? No, of course not, many have good records of opposing racism and standing up for asylum seekers. To call nationalists Nazis would actually be detrimental to the struggle of building unity against the genuine Nazis in Wales - the BNP (who are standing 50 candidates in Wales). Nevertheless, to say that the logic of nationalism and flag waving has an affinity to National Socialism and the ultimate outcome of nationalism is racist and divisive is perfectly valid.

Finally, somebody made a valid point that traditional cultures can be a resistance to globalisation. For example, by continuing to speak Welsh, people could be making a stand against the drive to stamp out traditional and local cultures. Many black activists find a culture of resistance in looking at Black and African history. Many Muslim activists find their own religious traditions can help form a culture of resistance. This can be valuable, but there is a danger: In order, to effectively combat globalisation and capitalism, you need to unite people along class lines. For example, if someone is resisting the British state in terms of their race or religious culture it effectively could exclude those of a different race and culture


----------



## chilango (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> But even if we support national liberation struggles in places like Palestine or Ireland, does this mean that we should be uncritical of their nationalism?



Critical or organise a "counter demo" ?



> Well, actually consider: James Connolly, on the eve of the Easter Rising in 1916 famously warned his men that if they were victorious to *keep hold of their rifles *because the nationalists were fighting for different things to us - we want political AND economic liberty - he said.



I'd love to see you do a counter demo against Irish Republicans...



> You see it with the PLO, Yasser Arafat and the leadership didn't emerge from the refugee camps but were predominantly wealthy businessmen who had their own niche in the gulf states. Hence their politics of attempting to court money from the Arab regimes rather than mobilising the Arab masses to smash their own ruling classes - hence, the current impasse of the palestinian movement.



So by being "critical" of these groups means plastering their imagery all over a blog?





> Actually what is needed in these countries are socialist movements that will oppose the ideology of nationalism to make sure that when they get liberation the situation of the poor and workers does change.



So how are you going to acheive this by empty sloganeering and provocative internet postings that wind up the very people you should be convincing?









...I know this thread is a wind up and started the debate but you arguments aren't coming out of it with much credibilty despite their theoretical "correctness".


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 14, 2008)

chilango said:


> ...and, Udo, are you also against the Notting Hill Carnival?



The Notting Hill Carnival was actually set up by a Black communist woman called Claudia Jones and has always been a festival of multiracial unity, it also represented the defiance of besieged immigrant communities. Some of the nationalists here remind me more of Orange Men.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The Notting Hill Carnival was actually set up by a Black communist woman called Claudia Jones and has always been a festival of multiracial unity, it also represented the defiance of besieged immigrant communities. Some of the nationalists here remind me more of Orange Men.



That would be the nationalist Claudia Jones then?


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Well, actually consider: James Connolly, on the eve of the Easter Rising in 1916 famously warned his men that if they were victorious to *keep hold of their rifles *because the nationalists were fighting for different things to us - we want political AND economic liberty - he said.



Do you think he would have appreciated you telling him that the Easter Rising was just a few steps away from national socialism? Presumably the 'counter-demo' would have had to have done this from behind the British guns.

As chilango said 'critical' as opposed to 'counter-demo' - fair enough go to the St Davids march and politely dish out some 'class not nation' type leaflets, might get a reasonable response - but a counter-demo - will leave most people there with the impression that they should shut up about being welsh, and take their silly dead language with them. 

I really hope osterberg is right, and this is just a crap wind-up.


----------



## chilango (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The Notting Hill Carnival was actually set up by a Black communist woman called Claudia Jones and has always been a festival of multiracial unity, it also represented the defiance of besieged immigrant communities. Some of the nationalists here remind me more of Orange Men.



The Notting Hill carnival, as with all such events, is a celebration of different cultures and their uniqueness/diversity. One could easily imagine a similar celebration of Welsh cultures.

Why point out that Claudia Jones was a "Black Communist woman"? Surely she is just a communist? what does her gender and skin colour have to do with owt?

Which nationalists on here are like "Orangemen" bit of slur that, no?

More interested though in how you plan to translate your rejection of nationalism into action within the context with which Respect works in Wales.

well?


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The Notting Hill Carnival was actually set up by a Black communist woman called Claudia Jones and has always been a festival of multiracial unity,



its an expression of black/caribbean pride that white people are welcome to attend. I imagine at the St Davids Day march, there will be a fair amount of pride - and I hardly think English people will be turned away by the organisers. 

Well Orangeman is an improement on Nazi I suppose.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 14, 2008)

Gavin, you are not grasping that there is no affinity between Ireland in 1916 and Wales in 2007.

Consider, what exactly are the biggest nationalist force in Wales, Plaid fighting for?

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would pursue anti-neoliberal policies when Adam Price MP has made clear that their economic strategy is based on Ireland (whose boom saw a massive increase inequality and child poverty) and courting foreign multinationals to come to Wales?

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be anti-imperialist when they have welcomed the UK Military Academy coming to South Wales (not a single one of Plaids 200 Cllrs, 3 MPs or 15 AMs has opposed this)?

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be pro-working class when they are just as good at cutting local services and closing schools as the other parties?

As Osterberg said independence is an issue for Welsh people to decide democratically, but for socialists the sole criterion is not an appeal to ideas of nation, patriotism etc but whether independence will advance the interests of workers in Wales? 

In fact, in certain situations it might do, but consider the consequences of going down the nationalist road - the obcuring of the reality that class is the fundamental divide in society, the whipping up of racism, the seeing of English people (rich and poor) as the opressor rather than identifying Capital as the problem, the illusion that some national solution is possible, the dividing of workers struggles along national lines rather than fighting for workers across Britain to unite against their no. 1 enemy.

I'm in favour of devolution - the devolution of power from bosses to workers!


----------



## chilango (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Gavin, you are not grasping that there is no affinity between Ireland in 1916 and Wales in 2007.
> 
> Consider, what exactly are the biggest nationalist force in Wales, Plaid fighting for?
> 
> ...



You're conflating "nationalism" with support for Plaid Cymru. Lazy, Udo.

...and also misses the range of positions within "nationalism".

Do you think the St Davids Day parade is a Plaid rally?

...still waiting for some positive ideas on how to critically engage with these forces


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Gavin, you are not grasping that there is no affinity between Ireland in 1916 and Wales in 2007.



So why bring it into the discussion then Udo? I agree that nationalism can distract from class understanding - but there are degrees of it, and there is nuance to it - and you don't seem remotely interested in this.

If there is no affinity between 1916 and now, then there is no affinity between welsh patriotism and national socialism. You still haven't withdrawn this disgraceful conflation by the way

There's no point quoting osterberg, he's explicitly said he has no intention of attending this counter-demo - I imagine he thinks that socialists should have better things to do.

This counter-demo is a silly provocation, when you could be trying to influence the strong left-wing current in welsh nationalism, you're just going to turn up an shout abuse at the natives and their backward ideas.


----------



## llantwit (Feb 14, 2008)

If I can't be chuffed as beans about beating England at rugby, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Gavin, you are not grasping that there is no affinity between Ireland in 1916 and Wales in 2007.
> 
> Consider, what exactly are the biggest nationalist force in Wales, Plaid fighting for?
> 
> ...



Plaid doesn't have a monopoly on Welsh national feeling...the St.Davids Rally isn't organised by Plaid. Only about 200,000 of the millions of people in Wales currently vote for Plaid. 

Again you promote St.Athan as being a Plaid decision, and say that we chose to support it instead of eradicating child poverty. It's stupid and wrong to say that, there was no choice offered. This isn't even government money it's a privatisation...

Yes I seriously do think 'the nationalists' in power would be pro-working class, haven't the nationalists in power in Gwynedd built more affordable housing for the people than anywhere else? Didn't the nationalists eventually getting into power result in saving several hospitals across Wales, that would have closed otherwise? It was the nationalists that got a fair pay deal for nurses, back-dated against Gordon Brown's advice, when outside of Wales (and Scotland) nurses were threatening strike action? They knew that in Wales socialist interests still prevailed. I might also add, isn't it the nationalists that are pioneering the most significant building of council houses and affordable houses across Wales for some time?
All of this has been achieved as only a junior partner in a virtually powerless Assembly.
Imagine how much more would be achieved as the main partner in a real Parliament.

Finally, I do not think you have the right to say what socialists think. You are suggesting that socialists should argue against the majority of workers in Wales because they define themselves as Welsh. That is a lunatic mentality and only worth pursuing if you want to destroy socialism in Wales- in the same way your lot damaged the anti-war movement by using extremist slogans such as victory to the insurgents or victory to Hezbollah. While well-intentioned, such slogans are idiotic. You have nothing to offer that any people in Wales will seriously listen to.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 14, 2008)

Sweaty Betty said:


> I loves a good leek pie on a sunday watching Dr Who......


Surely you mean Cardiff-set Torchwood?


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 14, 2008)

It was me who called a Brit nat, not nicolas - seems to have wound you up a treat.

What my thick skull is trying to tell you is that celebrating a ancient culture and language that's survived so long against all odds has nothing to do with hating the English.

I know you don't believe in Britain/England any more than you believe Wales exists, but your reaction to the St Davids day celebration is a typically English/British one.

You assume that anything foreign to you is automatically an anti-English act, bit like walking into the pub and they all 'start' speaking Welsh all of a sudden


----------



## chilango (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo...any chance of some replies?

or is your work here done?


----------



## Brockway (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> In the final line we get right into the really nasty side of nationalism. Let's break it down to brass tacks:
> 
> What Brockway is saying, in effect, is rather than politics being about rational debate which everyone can engage in - if you're a Black, Asian or English citizen of Wales, even if you've lived here for thirty years - shut up! You are de facto excluded from the debate. You have no right to a voice. There you see the racism that is inherrent in his ideology.



Eh? What I'm saying dumbo is that representatives (you) of the colonising nation (England) telling us (Welsh people of all creeds and colour) how to run our affairs is a bit f*cking cheeky. And stop making me out to be a racist you f*cking hippy.

Still, nice to see you fighting your corner. Keep up the good but misguided work.


----------



## nwnm (Feb 14, 2008)

Ben Bore said:


> Hope I don't get a row for push my blog, but George Galloway made his (and probably Respect's) views about minority languages and cultures clear recently in his column in the Daily Record:
> George Galloway shows his Respect



C'mon now Galloway, being the democrat he is, is no longer a part of the RESPECT project. As for RESPECT in wales, they remain the only political party to produce bilingual placards at protests outside the WAG building (along with socialist worker btw) (I think you were holding one when the queen came to visit) Not bad for such a small group....


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 14, 2008)

llantwit said:


> If I can't be chuffed as beans about beating England at rugby, I don't want to be part of your revolution.



rydych chi'n deviationist bourgeois-bach


----------



## Karac (Feb 14, 2008)

Obviously a wind-up and Udos got his reaction.
Personally i think the St Davids day parades a great idea and if it develops into anything like the St Patricks day parades then alls well and good-but its pretty meaningless apart from having a bit of fun and a few bevvies-but theres nowt wrong with that


----------



## Col_Buendia (Feb 14, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> When Mao wanted to get fit he didn't run around with a ball he swam the yangtze river and went on a long march



Any chance you might emulate him sometime soon?


----------



## niclas (Feb 15, 2008)

Nah, I only called him a Brit Leftie.

I'd like to think this has all been a wind-up but unfortunately I think Udo does actually believe that waving a Welsh dragon leads to swastikas, death camps and nazi mass rallies.

And talking of pandering to backward ideologies, it seems one of Respect's (the SWP version not the Galloway one) councillors has upped and joined the Tories in Tower Hamlets. And he was a *member* of the SWP before he jumped... eek! Is there no quality control these days?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 15, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> your lot damaged the anti-war movement by using extremist slogans such as victory to the insurgents or victory to Hezbollah. While well-intentioned, such slogans are idiotic. You have nothing to offer that any people in Wales will seriously listen to.



Lewislewis, sometimes it's correct to challenge ideas even though it might prove unpopular - often people respect you more in the longterm. RESPECT is proud to stand in this prophetic tradition. For example, on 7/7 the nationalists refused to link the London bombings with British foreign policy unlike RESPECT who clearly and unequivocally spoke truth to power. When I was a member of the SWP on 9.11 we had a front page of our newspaper that called it the "Bitter Fruit of Imperialism" such a slogan was quite unpopular with many sections of the public (I remember someone buying the newspaper just to tear it up), however I think we were absolutely right to argue this and by the time of the London bombings such views had become mainstream. We also argue against racism towards asylum seekers even though it's not popular with the electorate. And I think we are right to argue for the right to resistance to imperialism too. You see this is the fundamental difference between us - you favour a politics that panders to prejudice, I favour a critical discourse that challenges peoples ideas and "common sense".

In fact, we always argued that the slogans of the broad anti-war movement should be "bring the troops home" and for an immediate withdrawal of troops. Indeed, I myself, argued against the proposal that Victory to the Resistance should become a slogan of the anti-war movement, not because I disagreed with it, but because I felt in the current context it wasn't effective to mobilise a troops out movement. Nevertheless, RESPECT has been quite right to challenge patriotism, oppose references to "our troops" in the anti-war movement and to strongly challenge the racist argument that Iraqis don't have the same right to resist occupation as say the French or Italians in the 1940s, even if this means fighting against the British army. We were also right to defend the courageous resistance of a small group of irregulars (Hezbollah) against the 4th largest military in the World (the IDF). But we never argued it should be a condition to join the marches and meetings organised that people shared this view. Indeed, during the marches in Wales quite different perspectives were put forward  with Leanne Wood AM stating, "As a mother I must condemn Hezbollah" while a RESPECT speaker stated "Hezbollah are not a terrorist organisation. Hezbollah are a national liberation organisation. They are the only force that stand between Beirut and Tel Aviv. And I want them win because Israel is an apartheid state founded on subjugation". What's interesting about liberals is that they believe that they have a right to peddle their badly thought out views but want to supress alternative views. We defended the pluralism of views within the anti-war movement and our right to present our socialist analysis.

(On a tangent: Would Lewislewis not agree that it is somewhat hypocritical and hillarious for Leanne Wood to condemn "as a mother" Hezbollah, but has nothing to say - "as a mother" about a huge UK Military Academy being built in the constituency she represents? You know the Military Academy that will chanel profits to Raytheon who manufactured the cluster bombs that now cover Lebanon and will blow the limbs and legs of children for years to come.

This reminds me of a talk I attended by the muslim philosopher Tariq Ramadan. He was asked an interesting question by a concerned young person who stated support for the Palestinian and Iraqi people but their understandable concern at the violence associated with the resistance of these people. 
Tariq made a pointed comment that it was our silence that was responsible for the violence. He said, maybe if we had resisted the war more in the colonising countries (where we don't have to resort to violence)then the colonised wouldn't have to resist so much. He stated that rather focusing on the opressed who actions we can have little influence on we should focus on the oppressor who we could influence. 

That's why Leanne Wood is so morally reprehensive because she criticises the resistance of the oppressed while colluding with the military-industrial complex at home. If - as a mother - she condemned Hezbollah AND St Athan's we could respect her position. Though I don't think we should ever equate the violence of the oppressed and oppressor as equal)

Who were the forces who damaged the anti-war movement?

I think it was the LibDems who were put forward by the mainstream media as the "voice of the anti-war movement" and then derailed it by their support for the war once it began, their support for the wider war on terror and their fudging of the question of ending the occupation. Unfortunately, the radical anti-war movement didn't manage to get it's voices into the mainstream because of the wall of resistance from the establishment (For example, Greg Dyke fought to make sure that Stop the War Coalition representatives weren't interviewed by the BBC and banned BBC employees from attending the Feb15th demo). 

I would say it was the British political class who have tolerated a situation in which the only heads to roll over Iraq were Greg Dyke, Andrew Gilligan and George Galloway MP. As someone recently stated, it was if during Watergate, Deep throat had resigned rather than Nixon! The British political class are actually more spineless than the Americans in the Vietnam era.

I would say it was the hypocritical politicians who queued up to speak on Stop the War platforms in the run-up to the war and then forgot their opposition once it began. The Labour politicians who spoke stirring anti-war words at Stop the War Coalition meetings and then in parliament failed to vote for an Iraq inquiry.

I would say it was the politicians who have supported the Military Academy and consistently fudged the question of an unconditional withdrawal of the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

I would say it was trade union bureaucrats like Andy Gilchrist who called off strike action in the run-up to the Iraq War so as not to embarras the Labour government. The TUC was supposed to call a special conference to discuss the Iraq War days before the invasion - this mysteriously disappeared.

There were also the liberals who joined all the marches in the run-up to the war and then abandoned the anti-war movement as soon as the bombs started dropping. Many of them - because of patriotism and nationalism - believing it was "wrong" to oppose the war when "our" boys were dying. That's why it is so important to challenge the idea that oppressed people don't have the right to resist.

I believe that the Stop the War Coalition has made many mistakes and perhaps could have done many things better, adopted different tactics,  maybe encouraged more mass direct action, but I don't accept that this is the main factor in why the biggest protest movement in history didn't stop the war, I think it is more to do with the lack of "social weight" of the movement,  nor do I believe that the "extremism" of the anti-war movement has been a key issue.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 15, 2008)

nwnm said:


> C'mon now Galloway, being the democrat he is, is no longer a part of the RESPECT project. As for RESPECT in wales, they remain the only political party to produce bilingual placards at protests outside the WAG building (along with socialist worker btw) (I think you were holding one when the queen came to visit) Not bad for such a small group....



Ironically, NWNM actually highlights an important thing: Plaid and the wider nationalist movement  ultimately cannot defend the Welsh language or traditional cultures in Wales because they are wedded to the very forces and processes that are actually driving through the destruction

Only an anti-capitalist party and broad socialist movement can adequately defend this. 

Who is attacking the welsh language and rural culture in Wales at present? Is it not, Plaid in Gwynedd ripping the heart out of local communities with largest school closure programme in Wales?

At bottom, it is the process of globalisation and neoliberalism that are eradicating local cultures and languages. 

This has always been the case.

Consider English, now fast becoming the language of international business and therefore the international language. How did the English language evolve? In the Middle Ages, the idea of a single national language was unheard of. The commoners spoke various local dialects of anglo-saxon, the Lords spoke french dialects, the church used latin. It was the development of the national state, the modern legal system that began to eradicate local dialects and uniformise language into a single national language and the development of national broadcasting, transport networks etc that gradually began to eradicate local dialects. In short, the process of capitalist expansion and globalisation.

It's the same in Wales. Despite the nationalist myth that the main force that suppressed the Welsh language was English colonialism, the reality was that it was the industrial revolution that began to make English a more attractive language, the development of commerce and business and the massive immigration into South Wales that meant that by the early twentieth century, quarter of the people living in coal fields were English (and some of them were fine militants, despite his shortcomings, AJ Cook comes to mind).

Under a society run on - driven by - profit, local culture is always going to be destroyed to create a uniform world.

Only our anti-capitalist politics can defend local culture and language, as is seen in the case of Plaid who when in power - because they are a neoliberal party  - who ultimately support the very forces that are destroying local cultures and language as witnessed in their accelerated destruction of local culture in Gwynedd by ripping out the hearts of rural communities: Local rural schools.

The paradox of nationalism - it's cross class politics actually are inadequate to confront the very forces that are destroying our diverse local cultures, languages and communities.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 15, 2008)

why have you got it in for Leanne Wood so much Udo? 

you and your lot been up to Faslane365 this year?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 15, 2008)

ddraig said:


> why have you got it in for Leanne Wood so much Udo?
> 
> you and your lot been up to Faslane365 this year?



Ddraig,
I haven't "got it in" for Leanne Wood or anyone. Why shouldn't I criticise Leanne or any other Welsh politician on the stances they take? Or do you think that your favourite politicians stances shouldn't be discussed? 
I have no personal dislike for her, (indeed having met her a few times she seems a perfectly pleasant individual and has done some good things, she is certainly very far from being in the ranks of the totally reactionary politicians in Wales, indeed I would say she is one of the better ones)  I have criticised several Plaid elected representatives on this thread and other parties including the LibDems.
But someone who claims to be a socialist and has colluded with the building of a huge military academy in South Wales needs to be challenged on their personal morality. Indeed, it is precisely because she claims to be "of the left" that I am entitled to be critical when she takes positions that are reactionary. It is precisely because she claims to be a socialist that I would hold her up to higher standards than I would other politicians
It is perfectly legitimate to debate and discuss the positions taken by our elected representatives.
And do you not agree that it is TOTALLY hypocritical to condemn Hezbollah "as a mother" and remain silent on a Military Academy in your own constituency that will bring profits to companies like Raytheon who have littered the country Hezbollah hail from with cluster bombs that will blow apart children for generations to come?
I hope that LW will get some ethical backbone soon and follow the example of Jill Evans - but I won't hold my breath!
As to Faslane, members of our party have been up there, but I don't think it would be the most effective use of my own time to go up there and I don't have the cash to afford such a trip at present. Not that I'm criticising the protest - any protest against something bad deserves support!
But what's the use of jetting up to Faslane if you refuse to oppose the War on Terror in your backyard and support nuclear power stations?
We - in Respect - say, "Keep Wales out of the War on Terror" and "Keep the War on Terror out of Wales".


----------



## Brockway (Feb 15, 2008)

Udo check out my Jordan thread.


----------



## chilango (Feb 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> blah blah blah.



Instead of picking on the "soft target" of Plaid, how about answering the questions above...




Your thread on permaculture was constructive, mind.


----------



## chilango (Feb 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> "Keep Wales out of the War on Terror" and "Keep the War on Terror out of Wales".




Why "Wales" here Udo?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Only an anti-capitalist party and broad socialist movement can adequately defend this.
> 
> Who is attacking the welsh language and rural culture in Wales at present? Is it not, Plaid in Gwynedd ripping the heart out of local communities with largest school closure programme in Wales?
> 
> Only our anti-capitalist politics can defend local culture and language, as is seen in the case of Plaid who when in power - because they are a neoliberal party  - who ultimately support the very forces that are destroying local cultures and language as witnessed in their accelerated destruction of local culture in Gwynedd by ripping out the hearts of rural communities: Local rural schools.



Not true.
I have already proved in other threads that you know very little about the Gwynedd situation. It is only because of Plaid that local rural communities and schools exist in that part of Wales. There is a difference between running a council with budgets and obligations to the law and the government, and your fantasy politics which take place in your head. As regrettable as any school closure is, inequality of education is wrong and must be addressed. It is hilarious that you line up against some of the poorest communities in Wales by wanting to keep nearly empty schools open for the more priveleged to enjoy.

Your first point might seem valid, but why should I waste my life waiting for a broad socialist movement to arrive when a more appropriate Welsh vehicle such as Plaid Cymru already exists? If a broad socialist movement emerged that could defend the Welsh language it would probably be wrecked by factionalism, splits and the typical symptoms of the Brit left. You forget that most socialists in Wales are already participating in mainstream political parties, not the radical projects that you envision which though well-intentioned are going nowhere.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 15, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> . There is a difference between running a council with budgets and obligations to the law and the government, and your fantasy politics which take place in your head.



Spoken like a true New Labourite. New Plaid - New Wales. 

I hate to break it to you, Lewislewis but socialist-led councils have actually - in the real world in Britian and elsewhere - defied both the law and the government by refusing to carry out cuts in local services and attacks on working people and even forcing budgets to be extended. But to pull off this feat we would need a very different organisation to Plaid or Labour based on a very different model of organising through building social movements in civil society rather than the style of managerial capitalism that the capitalist parties in Wales favour.

The 4 parties in Wales have all embraced the neoliberal consensus that it's better that two-thirds of the wealth of our society stays with ten percent of the population rather than using that incredible wealth to fund public services for the other 90& But there's no reason to see the current set-up as an iron law that can never be changed.


----------



## chilango (Feb 15, 2008)

chilango said:


> Instead of picking on the "soft target" of Plaid, how about answering the questions above....



well...?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 15, 2008)

chilango said:


> well...?



(I'm waiting for Niclas and Lewislewis to protest Plaid being called the soft target?)

Which questions are you referring to?


----------



## chilango (Feb 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> (I'm waiting for Niclas and Lewislewis to protest Plaid being called the soft target?)


----------



## chilango (Feb 15, 2008)

These questions...




chilango said:


> Critical or organise a "counter demo" ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





chilango said:


> The Notting Hill carnival, as with all such events, is a celebration of different cultures and their uniqueness/diversity. One could easily imagine a similar celebration of Welsh cultures.
> 
> Why point out that Claudia Jones was a "Black Communist woman"? Surely she is just a communist? what does her gender and skin colour have to do with owt?
> 
> ...





chilango said:


> You're conflating "nationalism" with support for Plaid Cymru. Lazy, Udo.
> 
> ...and also misses the range of positions within "nationalism".
> 
> ...





chilango said:


> Why "Wales" here Udo?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Feb 16, 2008)

I think he's out swimming the Yangtze, you might be a while waiting for an answer there Chilango...


----------



## llantwit (Feb 16, 2008)

Col_Buendia said:


> I think he's out swimming the Yangtze, you might be a while waiting for an answer there Chilango...



I just cycled past a hippie doing widths in the Taff, though. Could it be him?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Feb 16, 2008)

Actually, couldn't have been him. You'd never get him near that much water, now that I come to think of it!


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 16, 2008)

Col_Buendia said:


> Actually, couldn't have been him. You'd never get him near that much water, now that I come to think of it!



He's more of a fish swimming in the sea of the people. Have you & Llantwit ever considered going into stand-up? you're such funny guys.

I'm still waiting for some ACTUAL arguments from the nationalists here. So far, all you've got is a lot of foaming at the mouth that someone would even dare to suggest that all social phenomena should be subjected to critical and intellectual scrutiny. I think it's quite a dangerous and fanatical mindset when you have closed systems of discourse.

And then we get the nasty side of nationalism from Brockway that you can't comment on Welsh nationalism if you don't have the necessary _racial _credentials and the absurd notion that I am an opressor. He has yet to actually give some in-depth explanation of his claim that Wales is under occupation by England or how he can justify his claim that I, a low paid young guy, am someway an opressor. But this is the dead-end of nationalism - the enemy is not international capital and it's administrators but rather ALL english (powerful and powerless, rich and poor). 

In answer to an earlier post by Lewislewis I wouldn't consider myself to be a "leading cadre" or spokesperson for anyone.


----------



## Karac (Feb 16, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> He's more of a fish swimming in the sea of the people. Have you & Llantwit ever considered going into stand-up? you're such funny guys.
> 
> I'm still waiting for some ACTUAL arguments from the nationalists here. So far, all you've got is a lot of foaming at the mouth that someone would even dare to suggest that all social phenomena should be subjected to critical and intellectual scrutiny. I think it's quite a dangerous and fanatical mindset when you have closed systems of discourse.
> 
> ...


Udo - you posted a very provacative OP and then raced back to a bog standard class v nation defence that few people on urban would disagree with
id have more respect (haha) for your views if you also spent a large part of your time denouncing British Nationalism-but you dont.
I always knew Respect were dodgy when Salma Yacoub appeared on Newsnight appealing to "British values"


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 16, 2008)

come off it Udo - you are the one who has blanketted everyone who has the audacity to disagree with you as a nationalist, and then compared us all to orangemen or even fascists. 

You did this in your second post in response to a pretty innocuous reply from the editor. And you have a track record of comparing people you disagree with as fascists.

You also posted a picture of a huge Nazi rally as some sort of comment on how any assertion of welsh national or cultural identity will end up. And then you have the cheek to paint angry responses to these provocations as some indication of racism.

Burying everyone in slabs of Marxism 101 isn't actually winning the argument, you realise that right?

If 'nationalists' cannot save languages - how come it is they, and not marxists who have done such a good job saving welsh in the last 40 years? 

As I have said to you already, most of us here would agree that some sort of class analysis is important, but that there is nuance around nationality, especially in small marginalised countries. 

So is there are counter-demo or not? Or is this in your head?

Are you going to feel the slightest bit uncomfortable as you tell the politically-backward natives not to bother with their silly language and funny ways?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 16, 2008)

bendeus said:


> I would add that I can barely recall a more pompous, po-faced original post than the one above.


That's hardly fair. He's nearly done 3000 posts. Give the guy some credit.


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Spoken like a true New Labourite. New Plaid - New Wales.
> 
> I hate to break it to you, Lewislewis but socialist-led councils have actually - in the real world in Britian and elsewhere - defied both the law and the government by refusing to carry out cuts in local services and attacks on working people and even forcing budgets to be extended. But to pull off this feat we would need a very different organisation to Plaid or Labour based on a very different model of organising through building social movements in civil society rather than the style of managerial capitalism that the capitalist parties in Wales favour.
> 
> The 4 parties in Wales have all embraced the neoliberal consensus that it's better that two-thirds of the wealth of our society stays with ten percent of the population rather than using that incredible wealth to fund public services for the other 90& But there's no reason to see the current set-up as an iron law that can never be changed.



Yeah they might have- in urban cities like Liverpool and London, not in rural Gwynedd you numpty. Why would Gwynedd councillors want to seek confrontation with the government? There is no appetite for such a confrontation, it would be immature, irresponsible and unecessary. See, this is why your lot have never won an election.

I do agree that Plaid is a soft target for any ideological criticism, because they're a mainstream party participating in the capitalist system. It's easier when you aren't part of the system because you can criticise in the knowledge that you'll never have any responsibility. I'm happy to admit i'm a reformist not a revolutionary, though if the circumstances and socio-economic conditions changed who knows. I'm more concerned about election results than internet debates, but I do enjoy a good online rant.


----------



## Brockway (Feb 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> And then we get the nasty side of nationalism from Brockway that you can't comment on Welsh nationalism if you don't have the necessary _racial _credentials and the absurd notion that I am an opressor. He has yet to actually give some in-depth explanation of his claim that Wales is under occupation by England or how he can justify his claim that I, a low paid young guy, am someway an opressor. But this is the dead-end of nationalism - the enemy is not international capital and it's administrators but rather ALL english (powerful and powerless, rich and poor).



Oh please. Stop putting words into my mouth you colonising gimp. And could you please stop romanticizing 'the worker' it's so patronising. God I hate middle-class tw*ts who pretend to be down there with the people.

Did you go and disrupt the Jordan event? No. Why not? Because you're hopeless that's why. History beckoned and you bottled it. What do you think Ian Bone would have done if that golden media opportunity were offered up to him?

You must be gutted that the Kosovans have just declared independence. They must, of course, all be a bunch of Nazis, fascists and racists.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2008)

I wish I could speak Welsh.

Does that make me a fascist?


----------



## niclas (Feb 17, 2008)

Two councils who refused to implement cuts come to mind - Labour-led Clay Cross (Derbyshire) in 1973 and Militant-led Liverpool in 1984.
 In both cases the councillors who refused to make the cuts were personally surcharged and, in some cases, were made bankrupt as a result. 
 I don't know the outcome of the Clay Cross rebellion but in Liverpool the situation was promising... it was during the miners' strike and Thatcher was fighting on a number of fronts. There was mass support for the council's policies (which included building 5,000 council houses) but Labour's leadership let down the councillors (not surprisingly - Kinnock detested Militant).
 The surcharging resulted in the smashing of the Militant/Labour hold on the council and to this day Liverpool has a Lib Dem council. It was a massive defeat.
 I don't know what the alternatives were in either case, but in both Liverpool and Clay Cross there was a mood to fight among the wider working-class.
 This is patently not the case today, after 25 years of Thatcherite-Blairism. We can pretend that we're on the verge of 1917 (again) or we can try to build a new movement for socialism that, like Chavez, takes on the progressive nature of national liberation and isn't dependent on bureaucratic centralism and empty sloganeering.
 Now where did I put my jackboots, I've got a rally to attend...


----------



## nwnm (Feb 17, 2008)

niclas said:


> Two councils who refused to implement cuts come to mind - Labour-led Clay Cross (Derbyshire) in 1973 and Militant-led Liverpool in 1984.
> In both cases the councillors who refused to make the cuts were personally surcharged and, in some cases, were made bankrupt as a result.
> I don't know the outcome of the Clay Cross rebellion but in Liverpool the situation was promising... it was during the miners' strike and Thatcher was fighting on a number of fronts. There was mass support for the council's policies (which included building 5,000 council houses) but Labour's leadership let down the councillors (not surprisingly - Kinnock detested Militant).
> The surcharging resulted in the smashing of the Militant/Labour hold on the council and to this day Liverpool has a Lib Dem council. It was a massive defeat.
> ...



or we could take a leaf out of the book of the old Poplar council tradition. Nice article here - 
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9426

Would also recommend michael lavalette's pamphlet on the subject, and Noreen Branson's book


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 17, 2008)

niclas said:


> We can pretend that we're on the verge of 1917 (again) or we can try to build a new movement for socialism that, like Chavez, takes on the progressive nature of national liberation and isn't dependent on bureaucratic centralism and empty sloganeering.



So who is the Welsh Chavez, Ieuan Whinge Jones or Rhodri Morgan?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> So who is the Welsh Chavez, Ieuan Whinge Jones or Rhodri Morgan?



Mate we're in Wales not Venezuela and have to work with what we've got.


----------



## niclas (Feb 17, 2008)

nwnm said:


> or we could take a leaf out of the book of the old Poplar council tradition. Nice article here -
> http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9426
> 
> Would also recommend michael lavalette's pamphlet on the subject, and Noreen Branson's book



Is Lavalette's pamphlet on-line?


----------



## cybertect (Feb 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Consider English, now fast becoming the language of international business and therefore the international language. How did the English language evolve? In the Middle Ages, the idea of a single national language was unheard of. The commoners spoke various local dialects of anglo-saxon, the Lords spoke french dialects, the church used latin. It was the development of the national state, the modern legal system that began to eradicate local dialects and uniformise language into a single national language and the development of national broadcasting, transport networks etc that gradually began to eradicate local dialects. In short, the process of capitalist expansion and globalisation.



Bollocks.

The Soviet Union actively pursued a policy of russification of the non-Russian republics throughout the majority of its history.

Socialist republicans in France were amongst those most keen to eradicate the Breton language after the 1789 revolution, associating Breton with anti-republican support for legitimist catholic politics.

The Church(es) abandoning Latin in favour of local languages had more to do with Protestant theology than any any economic imperative and predates the development of national states in Europe by several hundred years. John Wycliffe's translations (heretical to the Catholic Church) date from the 1380s. The real impetus to make the Bible accessible in local languages, notably English, followed Martin Luther's translation of the Bible into German in 1534. While much of Germany is Protestant, it wasn't unified into a single State until 1870.

Of course greater communications and transport networks have tended to standardise language, as they have also weights, measures and time. This is not a feature of capitalism _per se_, but of broader modernity.


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 18, 2008)

Who would've thought Respect(non-Galloway) Cardiff's leading Political Cadre would have caused such a stir, to have his idiocy replicated on a fairly well-read Welsh political blog:

http://miserableoldfart.blogspot.com/2008/02/and-they-wonder-why-i-hate-socialism.html

The post also gets a mention on Bethan Jenkins' blog.


----------



## nwnm (Feb 18, 2008)

niclas, there is an extract here - 
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=8606

and is available from bookmarks here - 
http://www.bookmarks.uk.com/cgi/store/bookmark.cgi 

Do a title search on "George Lansbury And The Rebel Councillors Of Poplar" They also have the Branson book "Poplarism" - but I would guess you have seen that


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 18, 2008)

So sorry if I'm being dense here, but is there actually going to be a counter-demo?

If it is a wind-up, are the other things udo has advertised (the permaculture course, and the 'hands of iraqi oil' demo) also a wind-up?

Or is it just stuff about the welsh that he does this for?


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 18, 2008)

nwnm said:


> niclas, there is an extract here -
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=8606
> 
> and is available from bookmarks here -
> ...



So what do you think about this 'counter-demo' and thread then nwnm? Is it something you would support?


----------



## chilango (Feb 18, 2008)

chilango said:


> Udo...any chance of some replies?
> 
> or is your work here done?



*coughs politely*


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 18, 2008)

chilango said:


> *coughs politely*


L Trotsky said, "Hitler was petit bourgeois, but not every petit-bourgeois is Hitler. There is, however, an article of Hitler lodged in every petit-bourgeois". 

Sorry will return to points sometime this week and other questions - but to be honest, I'm now a little bored with this thread! I should clarify one thing, I never said nationalists are nazis, as I stated to say so could undermine unity against the genuine Nazis in Wales - the BNP, I merely asked a question where does flagwaving and disolving your identity into a racial consciousness lead . . . we all know the answer! Brockway refers to me as a "colonizer", I expect next he will be complaing of Wales being "swamped" by English immigrants, and "our identity" and "welsh values" being under threat.

Not sure why he refers to me as being middle class. I grew up below the poverty line in a council house and now earn a low wage, I'm as proletarian as the next guy (or gal)

To Lewislewis, I'm not sure why you continue to claim that I am a "leading cadre"? I'm not a leader of anything, just a regular guy on the street . . .


----------



## osterberg (Feb 18, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> So sorry if I'm being dense here, but is there actually going to be a counter-demo?
> 
> If it is a wind-up, are the other things udo has advertised (the permaculture course, and the 'hands of iraqi oil' demo) also a wind-up?
> 
> Or is it just stuff about the welsh that he does this for?




  If there is a  counter-demo it will be Udo on his own.
The gardening stuff and the Stop the War stuff is genuine enough though.


----------



## chilango (Feb 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Sorry will return to points sometime this week and other questions - but to be honest, I'm now a little bored with this thread!



Perhaps Udo, because you have failed to engage with the question of national/cultural identity(ies) with potential progressive allies, preferring instead to fall back on abstract Marxish platitudes and lazy smears to avoid having to deal with realities that don't fit with your dogma.  

Right?

But then you did learn your politics in the SWP, no?  

So, any last thoughts on how to engage with cultural/linguistic/national constructs of identity from a progressive point of view...


----------



## chilango (Feb 18, 2008)

osterberg said:


> If there is a  counter-demo it will be Udo on his own.
> The gardening stuff and the Stop the War stuff is genuine enough though.



The gardening stuff seems pretty cool tbh. Good work Udo.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 18, 2008)

osterberg said:


> If there is a  counter-demo it will be Udo on his own.
> The gardening stuff and the Stop the War stuff is genuine enough though.



thanks for the confirmation, osterberg - so it is just about baiting welsh people, even if he doesn't want to admit it to himself.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 18, 2008)

I think a generous and broad socialist movement in Wales would present an alternative history of Wales highlighting the rapacious struggle between rich and poor and highlighting that some of the most hardy fighters for our class have come from Wales. In contrast with the nationalist attempts to present Wales as a cosy entity united against the English, we would present a "history from below" that highlighted sharp conflict and the continued aspirations of poor and working people for a better society, we might talk of the Merthyr and Newport Risings, the Children of Rebecca, Little Moscows, and talk about popular education movements like the Plebs League and Central Labour College and people like Noah Ablett and the authors of "The Miners Next Step". Such a movement would highlight Welsh culture not in a provincial, nationalist sense but as a contribution to the international heritage of humanity. 

Gardening is important. Plaid have embraced nuclear power and militarisation and would turn Wales into the playground of multinationals and the military, a cultural wasteland that would be dominated by the forces of globalisation. We need to fight to turn Wales into a garden of eden as part of an international struggle


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 18, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> thanks for the confirmation, osterberg - so it is just about baiting welsh people, even if he doesn't want to admit it to himself.



Why do you assume that all Welsh people support nationalist parades?


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Why do you assume that all Welsh people support nationalist parades?



Stop squirming Udo - you've been shown for what you are - a latter day Victorian Englishman being terribly reasonable with the natives, and not understanding why they get angrier and angrier. Absolutely text-book.

If this has just been one long troll, then bully for you, I hope you had a lot of fun. But you should bear in mind how much damage you have done for any future announcements you make for worthwhile events.


----------



## Brockway (Feb 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Sorry will return to points sometime this week and other questions - but to be honest, I'm now a little bored with this thread! I should clarify one thing, I never said nationalists are nazis, as I stated to say so could undermine unity against the genuine Nazis in Wales - the BNP, I merely asked a question where does flagwaving and disolving your identity into a racial consciousness lead . . . we all know the answer! Brockway refers to me as a "colonizer", I expect next he will be complaing of Wales being "swamped" by English immigrants, and "our identity" and "welsh values" being under threat.



You're doing it again. Making stuff up and attributing it to me. 

I said this: "I'd rather live in an independent, left-wing, multicultural Wales than be permanently disenfranchised under the English Tory jackboot in the colonial construct that is 'Britain'."

You on the other hand want to wipe Wales from the map and presumably live in an English-speaking hippy empire where we all grow our own vegetables. You're just another coloniser.


----------



## nwnm (Feb 18, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> So what do you think about this 'counter-demo' and thread then nwnm? Is it something you would support?



no - I'm hoping for a triple crown victory over Ireland, but think the French will probs get the 6 nations championship..... thats rained on my parade


----------



## niclas (Feb 19, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> I should clarify one thing, I never said nationalists are nazis



That picture of the mass nazi rallies was just a figment of our collective imaginations, right... 

Even your ex-SWP comrades are a little embarrassed by this thread - no wonder you're a "little bored".


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 19, 2008)

niclas said:


> That picture of the mass nazi rallies was just a figment of our collective imaginations, right...
> 
> Even your ex-SWP comrades are a little embarrassed by this thread - no wonder you're a "little bored".



Niclas you are so blinded by ideology you can't assimilate a simple rhetorical point. I asked where does flagwaving, nationalist hysteria and patriotism lead?

People may be interested to hear that Ieuan Wyn Jones won't be in Cardiff on the parade, by the way. As you would expect from the leader of the nationalists *he will be spending St David's Day on WALL STREET*with the fat cats, capitalist exploiters etc. (Out of interest, Niclas, you are aware that Plaid MPs abstained in the parliamentary vote to introduced the minimum wage?)

No socialist would be seen dead on Wall Street, but given that Plaid is a party whose economic strategy is based on courting foreign multinationals, Plaid's attempts to build links with the US capitalist elite are not unexpected.

People may remember that Niclas was shamed by socialists when Forward Wales adopted the slogan "Putting Wales First". As the radical left commented such a slogan  "Put Wales first" could only be interpreted as we need to put Wales (rich and poor) ahead of other countries because we are Welsh. 

Having been shamed, Niclas (now in Plaid) has duly amended the slogan to "Putting Welsh workers First" - but now he ties himself in even more knots and revealed himself as a complete national chauvinist. Afterall isn't this much the same as Gordon Brown's and many a trade union bureaucrats rhetoric of putting British workers first and defending British interests first?

What the hell does "Putting Welsh Workers First" mean? Substitute the word "White" for "Welsh" and you see the problem. It's about pitting the interests of one set of workers against another. So we pit Welsh workers against English workers, and the logic of this slogan would mean that Welsh workers have more rights than workers in the third world.

You see that while some nationalists can play a role in anti-capitalist struggles ultimately the logic of nationalism is reactionary.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 19, 2008)

So Niclas what do you think about your leader sending press releases about his celebration of St David's Day on *Wall Street*?

What do you think his purpose is there?

What does this tell you about Plaid?


----------



## agricola (Feb 19, 2008)

What a bizarre thread.  Is Udo Welsh?


----------



## chilango (Feb 19, 2008)

agricola said:


> What a bizarre thread.  Is Udo Welsh?




Doesn't matter.

He has no nation except the international proletariat.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 19, 2008)

> Mr Jones . . . will co-host a St David’s Day reception in New York with Sir Howard Stringer, Sony Corporation’s Wales-born chief executive.



Could you imagine a Scottish Socialist MSP involved in such antics?
Socialists in Wales know that Wall Street is the street that keeps you and I off Easy Street!


----------



## chilango (Feb 19, 2008)

Udo,

nobody is leaping up in IWJs defence.

How many posters on this thread are Plaid loyalists anyway?

National feeling doesn't just equal Plaid. So Plaid bashing isn't really engaging with issues on the thread.


----------



## agricola (Feb 19, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Could you imagine a Scottish Socialist MSP involved in such antics?
> Socialists in Wales know that Wall Street is the street that keeps you and I off Easy Street!



Not really like for like though, is it?


----------



## Myrddin (Feb 21, 2008)

Heard about this controversial thread and thought I'd put up my two penn'orth.

 I seem to remember that part of the reason the Owain Glyndwr and St. David's flags became so popular for example is because when the Millennium stadium first opened people started taking in St. David's and Owain Glyndwr flags to footie matches.

The stewards - probably jumped up little PC fascists like this guy - attempted to ban the flags because they thought they were rascist. This prompted people to start taking the flags in "protest" anyway. Now the flags are everywhere. 

I think there's a perverse streak in the Welsh psyche which doesn't like being told what to do. Something which this guy obviously doesnt understand. As a Nationalist myself I'm quite grateful to Udo really - he's doing our cause a big favour!


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> So Niclas what do you think about your leader sending press releases about his celebration of St David's Day on *Wall Street*?


Personally, I couldn't give a fuck, but I'm sure looking forward to celebrating St Davids Day, like most of the Welsh population.

Did you grow up in Wales, Udo? Do you know what the day actually means to Welsh people or are your personal politics somehow _more important?_


----------



## Belushi (Feb 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Personally, I couldn't give a fuck, but I'm sure looking forward to celebrating St Davids Day, like most of the Welsh population.



I always loved it as a kid,  all the boys competing to have the biggest leak, the girls in their traditional outfits, and a half day off school.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 21, 2008)

Editor are you seriously denying that their is not a large swathe of the Welsh working class, particularly in South Wales, who have a huge antipathy towards nationalism to the point of feeling "colonized"? even in Cardiff you hear people complaining at how a foreign culture to the one they grew up with is being imposed on them by the nationalist middle class in their attempts to impose the 'national project' on everyone.

Once again Editor assumes that all Welsh people support his ideology.


----------



## Brockway (Feb 21, 2008)

Thing is though Udo most people who celebrate St David's day don't vote Plaid and probably don't think of themselves as nationalists. It's a tradition. Back in ye olden days when I was in school we had an eisteddfod in the morning and then had the afternoon off. And that's a council estate school in Cardiff. I've got a school photo of my niece togged out in traditional Welsh costume from last year's St David's day and she goes to school in Ely.

So are you gonna hold this counter-demo or not?


----------



## Belushi (Feb 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Once again Editor assumes that all Welsh people support his ideology.



No he didnt, he stated most Welsh people enjoyed celebrating St David's Way, which ime is undeniable true.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 21, 2008)

Brockway said:


> So are you gonna hold this counter-demo or not?



No the counter-demo was just a wind-up post.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> No the counter-demo was just a wind-up post.



Didnt fancy standing out there on your own like a nutter eh


----------



## niclas (Feb 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> No the counter-demo was just a wind-up post.



That's a relief. There was me thinking you were a prize arsehole.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Once again Editor assumes that all Welsh people support his ideology.


Learn to read sunshine. My words were, "like most of the Welsh population." And, yes, most do enjoy St David's Day. 

And what do you know about Cardiff? Do you live there? Born there? Have you ever been to a St David's Day celebration?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 21, 2008)

niclas said:


> That's a relief. There was me thinking you were a prize arsehole.



Any replies to the earlier points addressed to you?


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2008)

And the pwnage is complete. Proof that the Welsh view St David's Day as an important date:


> Nearly nine out of 10 people in Wales believe St David's Day should be a public holiday, even if a day's holiday was lost elsewhere, a poll has found.
> 
> Of the 1,001 people questioned, 87% said they want 1 March to become a public holiday, with 11% against.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4760362.stm


----------



## zog (Feb 21, 2008)

editor said:


> And the pwnage is complete. Proof that the Welsh view St David's Day as an important date:




Oh come on now, I'd take a public holiday for any excuse, st david, george andrew or st saddam

I just don't give a fuck as long as I don't have to go to work. Calling it national sentiment is putting bells on it.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 21, 2008)

Where's Niclas to defend his leader's St David's Day celebration on Wall Street - the street that keeps you and I off easy street?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 21, 2008)

Welsh national feeling is a non-political, every day thing, completely just, natural and constructive, and is what most people on this thread have. What is the point in opposing it? 

Welsh nationalism is a political movement which a few people on this thread including me believe in, but most don't. 

St. David's Day is to celebrate Welsh national feeling, not Welsh nationalism, though of course nationalism is a (small) part of the identity.


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Where's Niclas to defend his leader's St David's Day celebration on Wall Street - the street that keeps you and I off easy street?



It doesn't need defending. IWJ is a centrist, reformist leader. What's he meant to do, put out a press release saying 'Wall Street is the street that keeps you and I off easy street'? Ffs.


----------



## Myrddin (Feb 22, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Editor are you seriously denying that their is not a large swathe of the Welsh working class, particularly in South Wales, who have a huge antipathy towards nationalism to the point of feeling "colonized"? even in Cardiff you hear people complaining at how a foreign culture to the one they grew up with is being imposed on them by the nationalist middle class in their attempts to impose the 'national project' on everyone.
> 
> Once again Editor assumes that all Welsh people support his ideology.



Presumably that's why Welsh medium eduction is continually oversubscribed, and why Cardiff City fans, even as far afield as Bridgend, can now be seen with the St. David's cross tattooed on their arms. 

You really don't get out much do you?


----------



## Myrddin (Feb 22, 2008)

In fact - are you English? There's something in your patronising tone that sounds awfully familiar...

Come on, let's have a little honesty, it's nothing to be ashamed of...


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2008)

zog said:


> Oh come on now, I'd take a public holiday for any excuse, st david, george andrew or st saddam
> 
> I just don't give a fuck as long as I don't have to go to work. Calling it national sentiment is putting bells on it.


They wouldn't be _gaining_ a day's holiday, silly.


----------



## zog (Feb 22, 2008)

they must be silly then


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 22, 2008)

From a Plaid blog



> Socialism in Action?
> 
> Whilst I am being condemned by Plaid supporters for daring to oppose socialism and supporting capitalism, I hear odd rumours about the proposed whereabouts of the leader of Plaid Sosialaidd Cymru on March 1st.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2008)

zog said:


> they must be silly then


Yeah! How dare they want to celebrate thousands of years of their culture!


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Yeah! How dare they want to celebrate thousands of years of their culture!



To be fair, the idea of swapping a day off in May or August for one in March doesn't sound that great...


----------



## Karac (Feb 22, 2008)

Udos just thrashing out because Respects gone down the bog-


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 23, 2008)

Was on the train today and it was very very obvious that an absolute tonne of working class people in South Wales are FAR more obsessed with Welshness than I am!


----------



## chainsaw cat (Feb 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Editor highlights very well how nationalism is an opiate, something that dopes us into a herd mentality and coheres ..... blah....
> 
> 
> blah....
> ...




You are 17, you have middle class parents who pay you no attention or are divorced, you live in Surrey and you have never seen any sort of war at all.


----------



## cymrukid (Feb 24, 2008)

I started a long winded response to Udo's tripe, then I realised I couldn't be fucken to finish it because the fact is that Welsh identity is important, and until more smaller nations 'find their feet,' so to speak, there's no chance of proper internationalism. Get out more too, you pudding.


----------



## penderyn2000 (Feb 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus commits a cardinal sin for a socialist: failing to differentiate between an oppressed and an oppressor nation.  While it is true that Wales is now an integrated part of the British state  and is not oppressed as a nation by England today (though a disturbingly high proportion of Welsh leftists seem to think there's a direct parallel with Israel and Palestine), it certainly was oppressed as a nation historically, aspects of anti-Welsh prejudice and marginalisation still exist and the right of the Welsh people to self-determination, if we so choose, is unquestionable. 

International socialism will never be achieved by trampling on the national aspirations of smaller nations or by demeaning their sense of national identity. One of Lenin's first acts after the 1917 revolution was to support the secession of Ukraine – a measure later reversed by Stalin, using a similar justification to Udo Erasmus here.

This doesn't mean that socialists should advocate independence for Wales – far from it. Most Welsh workers recognise that their interests will not be promoted by secession.  And the idea promoted by the Fourth International (Pabloism) that petit-bourgeois independence movements would lead the way to socialism proved disastrously wrong.  

The most striking thing about this year's St Davids Day events, however, is that they intend to celebrate the supposed glorious work done by Welsh soldiers in the UK army invading two  sovereign nations.  What socialists should be doing, rather than making ultra-left calls to abandon national sentiments altogether, is to call on the people of Wales to boycott the event involving the Royal Welsh regiment on the grounds that it actually celebrates national oppression.

Anyone agreeing with this is warmly invited to visit http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 24, 2008)

There is no direct oppression today between England and Wales at all. There are often inequalities and anomalies between the way England and Wales are broadly treated by the central government, but no national oppression.
However, it could be argued that the oppression of Wales in the past had long-term effects that are still felt today on the Welsh psyche.


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 25, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> The most striking thing about this year's St Davids Day events, however, is that they intend to celebrate the supposed glorious work done by Welsh soldiers in the UK army invading two  sovereign nations.  What socialists should be doing, rather than making ultra-left calls to abandon national sentiments altogether, is to call on the people of Wales to boycott *the event involving the Royal Welsh regiment* on the grounds that it actually celebrates national oppression.



Is that right there's going to representatives of the British Army there?  Fuck that.  I saw the council was going to be involved this year, whereas it was all organised by volunteers in the past, but no way will I be attending anything involving the army - Udo was right all along 



penderyn2000 said:


> Anyone agreeing with this is warmly invited to visit http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com



Just a small point about the blog, no one calls Caernarfon 'Caernarvon' any more


----------



## penderyn2000 (Feb 25, 2008)

Blog is corrected thanks.
This military parade is shrouded in mystery.  The first I knew of it were two temporary hoardings parked at the end of Queen St on match day.  The legend was 'they've done their bit', omitting the vital words 'to fuck up Iraq' - not that the rank and file soldiers wanted to go there in the first place, so let's keep the blame firmly in the right place.  I'm sure the venue was Cardiff Castle.  But there are no references to it in the council free paper, in the media or anywhere else on the web as far as I can see.  If you go to the Cardiff castle website the relevant page bears the following message: "It is regretted but the article requested is no longer available either having expired or having been been restricted"
Paranoia about terrorism, or just don't want an anti-war demo?
Surely it's not too late for STW to organise at least a stall?


----------



## llantwit (Feb 25, 2008)

The army were driving round town in a tank today. Presumably because they were about to set up another bloody recruitment stall by St John's church. If someone's passing by maybe they could ask one of the squaddies if there's anything planed for St David's Day?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 25, 2008)

i think after the one they had down st mary st the other week that was televised and lauded for having 'thousands' of people with the odd one doing a vox pop about 'our boys' they are keen to jump on any bandwagon.

in reality there were a few hundred and not thousand people, with the most, i wager, being families/ex-service people and general old biddies who happened to be on the st at the time.

what bollocks! all over the news as well 

THAT is where YOU SHOULD TARGET YOUR RESOURCES udo


----------



## ddraig (Feb 25, 2008)

nothing bout the forces on here http://www.marketmailer.co.uk//rwcode/content.asp?SID=8&Section=1857&SiteID=99


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 25, 2008)

It's normal for some kind of military event on St David's day, (often a royal visit to welsh troops)  so it wouldn't be out of place. May well be a different event to the parade though.


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 25, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> It's normal for some kind of military event on St David's day, (often a royal visit to welsh troops)  so it wouldn't be out of place. May well be a different event to the parade though.



Come to think of it , 2 years ago (and possibly last year), in addition to the St Davids Day parade from Mochyn Du to the Museum, there was also a seperate one involving the mayor and the army marching, so if the mayor's involved in this years merged one, then so might the squaddies - that's won't go down too well.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

ddraig said:


> THAT is where YOU SHOULD TARGET YOUR RESOURCES udo



Well, I try to do my bit, I mean I contacted the Echo following a story from a family whose son was going out to Iraq, to put the parents in contact with Military Families against the War and spoken to many soldiers about these kind of issues.
This thread was a wind-up or provocation, while political nationalism is a dead end and to be challenged, I don't primarily target my resources into activism against it.
I have to say that Penderyn (the trotskyite one) commits the cardinal sin of a socialist of forgetting that the working class has no country, (re-read the 1848 manifesto, comrade!) as the great English democrat and true internationalist (he took part in two revolutions) Tom Paine said: "My country is the world. My religion is the love of all mankind"
He also ignores that I clearly identified the two key nationalisms he mentions. The point is that the Welsh variety doesn't fit in either camp.
Penderyn (while making mostly uncontroversial points) also seems confused, on one hand he argues that we should argue against nationalism but on the other hand says that we mustn't trample on small nations legitimate aspirations. I'm sure he manages to square the circle somewhere but it seems opportunism to me. 
Finally we should not make the mistake of the Argentinian 4th Internationalist, Pasodas, who argued that UFOs were proof of the existence of socialism on other planets. His reasoning was that only a socialist planet would be capable of developing the technology to make this possible.


----------



## Brockway (Feb 25, 2008)

You should be concentrating your resources on the St David's 2 retail complex. Have you read the guff on the hoardings surrounding it? There is a chronoligical list of significant events in Cardiff's history culminating in, of course, the opening of St David's 2. Not the opening of a hospital or some educational establishment but a bunch of new shops. As if progress is measured by how much retail space we have access to. And the "2"'s back to back forming a heart is enough to make anyone puke. I'm disappointed that none of you self-appointed revolutionaries, anarchists and other assorted malcontents have vandalised it, stuck posters over it, or subverted it in some way. After all it's a huge symbol of capitalism and capitalist expansion on your doorstep.

So come on let's be 'aving ya! Go and f*ck it up.


----------



## llantwit (Feb 25, 2008)

Brockway said:


> you self-appointed revolutionaries


Should we be appointed by someone else?


----------



## Brockway (Feb 25, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Should we be appointed by someone else?




Don't split hairs Llantwit go and be subversive and f*ck up their lovely hoardings.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

Well, if you would like to organise such subversion PM me. You are correct that the urban regeneration of Russell Goodpay and Rodney Berman is pretty reactionary. On a related subject, I was talking to a DJ comrade of mine who was commenting how the cost and expense of promoting a night has increased since the LibDems took over the council with their war on flypostering, he also made a pointed comment that the boards that the council provided are dominated by the big bands that could afford to advertise on TV rather than local acts. Another axe to grind was the trouble that the Toucan club had getting a license for St Mary's Street and the failure of the council to facilitate culture and music in the city.


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 25, 2008)

The military are having their own St. David's Day presence in Cardiff, and are not part of the cultural celebration which is organsied by volunteers.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

Anyway, Brockway, why do you want to stop nice proletarians enjoying their window shopping?


----------



## Brockway (Feb 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Well, if you would like to organise such subversion PM me.



Excuse me, I'm a fine upstanding member of society. Subversion and fighting the forces of Capitalism is *your *job. A can of spray paint and a bicycle is all you need. Get on it Udo.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

*This is one RED who ain't staying under the bed*



Brockway said:


> Excuse me, I'm a fine upstanding member of society. Subversion and fighting the forces of Capitalism is *your *job. A can of spray paint and a bicycle is all you need. Get on it Udo.



I was quite gratified once when I used to graffitti the boards opposite the millenium stadium near where the Riverside Market is now held, when walking through a completely different part of town, I heard some young proletarians saying how cool the slogans were!


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

*This is one RED who ain't staying under the bed*



Brockway said:


> Excuse me, I'm a fine upstanding member of society.



As we say in our organisation: It's never too late to love, or rebel!


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Should we be appointed by someone else?



No! But we should act as if we were accountable to our class - and history . . .


----------



## chilango (Feb 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> As we say in our organisation: It's never too late to love, or rebel!



What organisation?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

. .  . . .


----------



## chilango (Feb 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Sorry off on a tangent, this reminded me that the SWP once had an organisation for infants called "Rebel"


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

chilango said:


>



Were you a member?


----------



## chilango (Feb 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Were you a member?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 25, 2008)

chilango said:


>


----------



## penderyn2000 (Feb 26, 2008)

Many thanks to Udo Erasmus for recommending me some reading matter, even if this was something I first perused before he was born.  What left a particular impression on me was the need for the working class to pursue an independent political course and not get drawn into cross-class alliances as Udo has been doing for the past three years.
However, the Communist Manifesto is an explanation of communism and only in a very limited way a guide to action.  All socialists want to see a united world in which the nation state is history.  The question is how we get there.  In the Middle East at present socialists support the right of Iraqis to self-determination and to expel the imperialists from their country.  Ideally Iraqis would also be fighting for a socialist federation of the Middle East, but we do not abandon them if they don't.  
In Wales, as I said, there is no comparable national oppression, but there is historical oppression and still elements of anti-Welsh racism (I've seen this from both sides, having lived 31 years in England and 21 in Wales).  
I apologise if my previous post was ambiguous.  There are situations where socialists should indeed support the political independence of small nations, but in the case of Wales, it is the need simply to be recognised as a nation that is the 'aspiration' to which I was referring.


----------



## osterberg (Feb 27, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> Many thanks to Udo Erasmus for recommending me some reading matter, even if this was something I first perused before he was born....


 That's a bit patronising , isn't it ? Age does not have a monopoly on wisdom.


----------



## penderyn2000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Very true.  Mutual respect between old and young is vital to a healthy socialist movement.  But when a person has no respect for anybody, no matter their experience and commitment, what respect do they deserve in return?  Just ask the past three chairs of Cardiff Stop the War Coalition.  
Nevertheless, next time Udo Erasmus instructs me what to read, I will attempt to reply as if talking to a serious and mature activist.   Now remind me - how did this thread start?


----------



## osterberg (Feb 27, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> Very true.  Mutual respect between old and young is vital to a healthy socialist movement.  But when a person has no respect for anybody, no matter their experience and commitment, what respect do they deserve in return?  Just ask the past three chairs of Cardiff Stop the War Coalition.
> Nevertheless, next time Udo Erasmus instructs me what to read, I will attempt to reply as if talking to a serious and mature activist.   Now remind me - how did this thread start?



 You really don't like him,do you?
He has his good points


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Feb 27, 2008)

He certainly doesn't advertise them.


----------



## Ben Bore (Feb 29, 2008)

Is anyone's still interested (or remember what this thread was about), I've had an e-mail from the organisers confirming there won't be members of the Armed forces there (at least not in uniform and marching)


----------



## ddraig (Feb 29, 2008)

hmmm, it's not on the press releases and stuff but i reckon they're defo up to something! 

a few days this week there have been 2 sentry boxes outside the castle with a 'guard' standing outside each (complete with hat and bayonnet ffs!)

i have also seen a 'come and see the changing of the guard at Cardiff Castle' thingy but can't find it now.

they had a tank at the entrance yesterday as well.

does anyone know when these 'guards' arrived? who/what is behind it? and more importantly wtf is it supposed to be about? 
cos we certainly don't need them and i strongly object to both them being there and the militarisation of 'our' city and Wales's castle


----------



## waterloowelshy (Feb 29, 2008)

Ben Bore said:


> Is anyone's still interested (or remember what this thread was about), I've had an e-mail from the organisers confirming there won't be members of the Armed forces there (at least not in uniform and marching)



you mean this thread has a point? i just thought it was made up by some angst ridden objectors wanting to conquer the world - but turned into a farce as one objector thought their objections were stronger than the other objectors?! 

As far as i am aware - Wales remains the same today - the protests to stop us being Welsh appear to have failed.


----------



## zog (Feb 29, 2008)

concerned about the militarisation of a castle?

Too right I liked them best when they were only used for bouncing


----------



## ddraig (Feb 29, 2008)

*here we go!*

sly fuckers
anyone got any Troops out banners knocking about? or fancy making some at short notice like 'army hands off St David's Day' 'no militirisation of our castle!'
etcetc



			
				icwales said:
			
		

> *Regiment in celebration mode for St David’s Day*
> A SPECTACULAR parade and ceremonial changing of the guard will mark St David’s Day in style tomorrow.
> 
> While the changing of the guard normally takes place at Buckingham Palace, soldiers from the Royal Welsh will be bringing it to Cardiff especially for the big day.
> ...


ffs!
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...ation-mode-for-st-david-s-day-91466-20541214/


----------



## Belushi (Feb 29, 2008)

Heh, its gonna be a welsh version of those old Soviet Parades, tanks, missiles, giant portraits of Rhodri all over the place....


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 29, 2008)

ddraig said:


> sly fuckers
> anyone got any Troops out banners knocking about? or fancy making some at short notice like 'army hands off St David's Day' 'no militirisation of our castle!'
> etcetc



Unfortunately, won't be around this weekend, but a good idea would be to download anti-war leaflets from Military Families against the War website: www.mfaw.org.uk as many servicemen are actually receptive to anti-war argument. Building an anti-war network within the military will play a key role in bringing the war to an end.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Unfortunately, won't be around this weekend, but a good idea would be to download anti-war leaflets from Military Families against the War website: www.mfaw.org.uk as many servicemen are actually receptive to anti-war argument. Building an anti-war network within the military will play a key role in bringing the war to an end.



so you're chickening out???


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Unfortunately, won't be around this weekend,


what about the counter demo?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 29, 2008)

The counter-demo post was just a wind-up!


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The counter-demo post was just a wind-up!



say it ain't so?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 29, 2008)

FFS the army holding an event will totally ruin the original non-political, non-military parade. 
When i tell my mates about the parade now they'll think i'm even more of a sad act and that i'm talking about men in uniform being led down the street by a goat.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Feb 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The counter-demo post was just a wind-up!



Bit like his party


----------



## llantwit (Mar 1, 2008)

Right Everyone! On The Streets!! Let's Boot The Nashy Bounders Off Our Streets!!! Enough Is Enough - The International Proletariat Knows No National Boundaries!!!!


----------



## Karac (Mar 1, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Right Everyone! On The Streets!! Let's Boot The Nashy Bounders Off Our Streets!!! Enough Is Enough - The International Proletariat Knows No National Boundaries!!!!


I bet Udo went with a sandwich board around his body expressing those exact sentiments


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 2, 2008)

Did anyone go to Cardiff Saturday for a day out? Get any pics?


----------



## 1927 (Mar 2, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Did anyone go to Cardiff Saturday for a day out? Get any pics?



I tried, but there were so many people on the streets making there way to/from the Udo thing that i couldn't get further than Canton!


----------



## Swan (Mar 2, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Did anyone go to Cardiff Saturday for a day out? Get any pics?



Yes, but no photos sorry.


----------



## Ben Bore (Mar 3, 2008)

I went, bit gutted that the army billy goat was there (he tried to bite me)

Didn't take a camra myself but a few on flickr, here's a set.


----------

