# Plaid say "don't tax big business!"



## Udo Erasmus (Sep 24, 2006)

In the days of Old Labour, Denis Healy was even heard once to say that Labour would "tax the rich until the pips squeak" - something they didn't actually do.

Socialists have always stood for taxing the rich not the poor yet now Plaid once again reaffirm that they want to cut taxes for big business:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...d-stimulate-boom-in-poor-areas-name_page.html

This is further evidence that Plaid far from being an alternative to new Labour offer the same solutions with a nationalist twist - a low wage economy with generous handouts to multinationals.

Adam Price MP justifies this with reference to the Irish Celtic Tiger economy  which most of Plaid elected representatives hold out as their model.  But Ireland is a low wage economy of gross equality and poverty.  Plaid accept all the arguments of the free market, globalisation and the results of this.

What is the difference between Plaid and Labour?


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## snadge (Sep 24, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> This is further evidence that Plaid far from being an alternative to new Labour offer the same solutions with a nationalist twist - a low wage economy with generous handouts to multinationals.



Erm, I don't think so.


Eire has been a champion to address wage cutting by adhering to previously agreed wage structures.


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## meurig (Sep 24, 2006)

Ardderchog. Mae alla i cefnogi Plaid yn wir nawr.


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## Brockway (Sep 24, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> In the days of Old Labour, Denis Healy was even heard once to say that Labour would "tax the rich until the pips squeak" - something they didn't actually do.
> 
> Socialists have always stood for taxing the rich not the poor yet now Plaid once again reaffirm that they want to cut taxes for big business:
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...d-stimulate-boom-in-poor-areas-name_page.html
> ...



....so if you don't think we should support Labour or Plaid who do you suggest we lend our political support to?


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## osterberg (Sep 25, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> ....so if you don't think we should support Labour or Plaid who do you suggest we lend our political support to?



Hmm..I wonder?  
http://www.respectcoalition.org/


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## Ben Bore (Sep 25, 2006)

I haven't read the proposals in detail yet, but personally I'd rather see businesses (of whatever size) paying less business tax as opposed to giving them a huge grant and see them piss off after around 5 years.

Whether or not your a fan of big business (i'm not), they play a huge part in the economy, everyone can't start their own business ar work for the public sector.


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## lewislewis (Sep 25, 2006)

Udo, currently in terms of the social condition of Wales' poorest areas (which the article mentions- the tax cut would be for companies in Wales' poorest areas), most people would rather a well-paid job than to be unemployed. 

This might not fit into your politics but it's true really. The interests of big business are obviously not to help others, they are to make money, but if we can get a job from it then it'll help people who want to work but don't really have the opportunity to do so.

I guess you see the Lebanon as a more important issue?


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 25, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I haven't read the proposals in detail yet, but personally I'd rather see businesses (of whatever size) paying less business tax as opposed to giving them a huge grant and see them piss off after around 5 years.
> 
> Whether or not your a fan of big business (i'm not), they play a huge part in the economy, everyone can't start their own business ar work for the public sector.



Lewislewis your comment is somewhat Blairite - "we have to engage with the market".  Isn't it odd that Old Labour were prepared to sometimes take on Big business but Plaid courts it.  And why was the main focus of the coverage of Plaid conference on cutting taxes for the wealthy not on policies that help the poor and needy? Why are Plaid not calling for the taking of the commanding heights of the economy into public ownership, Scrapping anti-trade union laws, building more council houses, free education, decent pensions etc. etc.
I'm sure they support some of these things, but odd that Ieuan Wyn Jones sounded more like a New Labour minister in 1997 than Old Labour.  Essentially Plaid unlike the rest of the left have made their peace with the neo-liberal consensus

The trouble with Plaid's courting of big business is that under their scheme they let big business set the terms.  For example, is it better to have a job where you are unionised, paid decent wages etc than to have a McJob.

1) Why do Plaid hold out the Irish Celtic Tiger essentially a boom built on neo-liberal attacks on workers as their model?
2) On all the footage from the Plaid conference you see very little socialism, even Old Labour reformist socialism, instead you hear essentially the same Blairite rhetoric.  So how would Plaid differ in any substantial way from New Labour (who in opposition talked far more radically than Plaid do today?
3) The point is big business does piss off, to wherever they can find workers paid the lowest wages with the least rights.  We need to challenge the idea that big business can do what it wants and start fighting for working people.  If McDonalds wants to leave Wales then they can leave!
4) I'm a member of Respect and also a revolutionary socialist.  But whatever party your coming from it is clear that the key thing is not electoral politics but socialists organising at the grassroots of society, because the only way to build an alternative to neo-liberalism is for workers to organise (perferably but not exclusively) as workers - "we are many, they are few".  This is also important for another reason, because reformist politics is anti-democratic, whereas we need politics which empowers everybody, as Marx said "the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself".  This seems abstract, but 30 years ago there were organised networks of shop stewards and rank and file movements of politicised trade unionists.  The anti-war movement involved thousands in politics, I think the key (but a long and hard process) is to take this politicisation into the workplace, but either way we shouldn't kid ourselves that an independent Wales with Plaid in power would be any different from the UK today with New Labour in power.
What is disappointing is when you hear people like Ieuan Whinge Jones speak and realise that he is probably to the right of Kinnock in the 80s.


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## lewislewis (Sep 25, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Lewislewis your comment is somewhat Blairite - "we have to engage with the market".  Isn't it odd that Old Labour were prepared to sometimes take on Big business but Plaid courts it.  And why was the main focus of the coverage of Plaid conference on cutting taxes for the wealthy not on policies that help the poor and needy? Why are Plaid not calling for the taking of the commanding heights of the economy into public ownership, Scrapping anti-trade union laws, building more council houses, free education, decent pensions etc. etc.
> I'm sure they support some of these things, but odd that Ieuan Wyn Jones sounded more like a New Labour minister in 1997 than Old Labour.  Essentially Plaid unlike the rest of the left have made their peace with the neo-liberal consensus
> 
> The trouble with Plaid's courting of big business is that under their scheme they let big business set the terms.  For example, is it better to have a job where you are unionised, paid decent wages etc than to have a McJob.
> ...



I have a job for a corporation but i'm unionised. Unashamedly, I get paid ridiculously well for the amount of work I do.
You won't see me advocating tax cuts for the rich, but neither am I calling for McDonalds to be nationalised (though other things could and should be). I don't see what the problem is, my friends who work there need the money.

Plaid Cymru calls for a higher minimum wage, free education, no privatisation in health care etc etc

Your other points
1) Wales is not Ireland and I can't see its unique conditions being recreated here (and they were extremely unique). The fact it happened shows that capitalist countries can be independent and still function, which is the current stage Wales is at. I would argue Wales is essentially a socialist country at heart, but at the same time most people aren't revolutionaries or particularly radical. We are realistic.

2) I don't care about Labour talking radically. They have had their chances in power. Wait and see what the Plaid people do in power, and if they disappoint and aren't socialist enough, they are the kind of people you can go up to in person and hold them to account about it. Plaid's membership doesn't set the conditions of the media coverage. Plaid's leadership might want the party to seem softer as a better chance of getting elected. Again, this is reality and I hope we will form the next Welsh government.

3) Udo, if all those companies did leave (and not all are as evil as McDonalds), unemployment would increase massively. Things would get harder for us. Why would we want to force investors away ? We'd have less income?

4) "I'm a member of Respect and also a revolutionary socialist." You will never really influence the outlook of the Welsh people then. This is condescending of me and I am sorry, but you are still very useful for certain campaigns and I do appreciate your value on the ground. I think Respect members are usually good in the community, but you won't ever change laws etc. So it's good that you are doing your thing. I used to follow you Udo but gave that up long ago. Most people don't want to organise exclusively as workers : ( 

For my part I think Wales with Plaid in power would have a totally different outlook than Wales/UK with New Labour. Based on the people that are influential in Plaid, I can say that maybe we could create a Wales where the Middle England (and it is mainly England) mentality doesn't exist in big enough size to have any impact on life. Most people in Wales see themselves as working class, and the political priorities of the Welsh nation would reflect that. They are supposed to reflect it now, in the sense that everything is to the left in Wales.
I also think that we could create a consciousness where money and status isn't the only thing valuable in life, in Wales our culture is still geared towards things like communities, inclusiveness, internationalism, patriotism, in some cases workers organisations, and in some cases independent religion. 
Another point, in the smaller European countries the political and media establishments are alot easier to deal with, and from a revolutionary socialist point of view you wouldn't be oppressed as much.


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## lewislewis (Sep 25, 2006)

Also Udo, Ireland isn't really a nightmare or bad place to live is it? When I visit there i'm quite impressed, I could easily hold down a good job there and university tuition is free. Also if I get a degree from Uni, Ireland has all kinds of good paying jobs for educated workers, and average income there is higher than the UK or Wales.
That said, I don't intend to become an immigrant to Ireland. I just think by governing themselves they've moved the country in the direction their population wants to go, rather than in a direction decided by London.


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 25, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Also Udo, Ireland isn't really a nightmare or bad place to live is it? When I visit there i'm quite impressed, I could easily hold down a good job there and university tuition is free. Also if I get a degree from Uni, Ireland has all kinds of good paying jobs for educated workers, and average income there is higher than the UK or Wales.
> That said, I don't intend to become an immigrant to Ireland. I just think by governing themselves they've moved the country in the direction their population wants to go, rather than in a direction decided by London.


Ireland became independent in slightly different circumstances than Wales would.  The 1916 Easter Rising struck a blow against the British Empire and sped its demise - if Wales became independent it would be much the same as England.
I personally think that rule from Cardiff or rule from London would - while there might be minor improvements (or not) - be in substance much the same.
I agree that Ireland is a nice country, though many feel that it has become less so since the boom.
You are correct that tuition fees were abolished in Ireland - not because the government were nice, but because unlike here where the NUS is in the pocket of the Labour Party, students successfully campaigned against them.
But ultimately across the Western world living standards are being squeezed in a neoliberal offensive that began in the late 70s - social democratic governments face a choice, decisively standing up against neoliberalism or capitulating, and I see little concrete sign that Plaid offer any alternative to Labour except some rhetoric that Welsh businesses might be better than English busineses


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## lewislewis (Sep 25, 2006)

We'll never agree then, we'll have to wait and see.


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 25, 2006)

If you think that they do offer an alternative, then do tell why?
My own opinion of Plaid is that they have some good people in them, just as Labour has a few good people in them, but I don't see any concrete difference except that _in opposition _Plaid position themselves (slightly) to the left of New Labour.
Would you agree with me that the policy statements coming out of the Plaid conference (as reported in the media) were a little uninspiring? I certainly was expecting something more robust.


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## lewislewis (Sep 25, 2006)

I think the focus was not on policy but was on the new image of the party. This doesn't surprise me because usually media coverage of Plaid is all about the image rather than actual detail.

I'm sure there were some inspiring debates at the party, but the general consensus is that we aren't going to change direction in terms of principles, policies or ideology. Plaid is just changing the way in which it communicates that message. 

I think Plaid is an alternative to any other party in Wales because they are the only party that still represents proper Welsh socialist values, and because i'm a nationalist I believe our country would be alot better off without the shackles of Westminster. With a self-governing, independent Wales we could have a new kind of politics which is maybe a bit different to the normal UK consensus, something a bit more innovative and ideological, less about management and utility and more about ideas, values, principles and history. We could make huge progress as a country, strengthen our inclusiveness of ethnic minorities, have Wales as a progressive European state. 
It isn't revolutionary, but it's something I believe in and will work towards. I want Wales as a role model. I think in current UK politics people's human needs are neglected, it's all about cash. That's part of the cultural legacy of Thatcher. I want an atmosphere in which we can heal the legacy of Thatcherism. There is no possible way we can do that without governing ourselves.


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## rhys gethin (Sep 25, 2006)

Udo - the point is that we are all stuck with living under capitalism until we can get rid of the bugger.   The question is whether - and how - we can shift it.   Plaid Cymru has more chance of being politically effective than Respect, just now anyway, and Cymru is a very different place from England.   Neither is going to shift the system much, but Plaid Cymru has not yet produced the huge disgust New Labour has - and, fair play, even Welsh Labour isn't quite so stomach-heavingly vomitous.   So why not let us get on and make our own mistakes, while you get on and make yours?


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## Brockway (Sep 25, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> 4) Marx said "the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself".  This seems abstract, but 30 years ago there were organised networks of shop stewards and rank and file movements of politicised trade unionists.  The anti-war movement involved thousands in politics, I think the key (but a long and hard process) is to take this politicisation into the workplace, but either way we shouldn't kid ourselves that an independent Wales with Plaid in power would be any different from the UK today with New Labour in power.
> What is disappointing is when you hear people like Ieuan Whinge Jones speak and realise that he is probably to the right of Kinnock in the 80s.



Marx wrote that when the working-class had to endure deplorable and dangerous working conditions. Today we live in one of the richest countries on earth. Sure there are economic inequalities in our society but being poor in Britain in 2006 ain't as scary as it used to be. And you have to come to terms with the reality that the working-class LIKE capitalism. You do a dull but not dangerous job and you go to Majorca for 2 weeks; you buy some computer games; you get a flat-screen tv; you get Sky. This may come as a shock to you but people are quite happy with that. Working-class people don't want to sit around reading Karl Marx that's for sure.

The anti-war movement (if you're on about Iraq) has largely bypassed the working-class, it is a topic that has mostly engaged the chattering classes, middle-class liberals and of course the media. The media is the real opposition to New Labour and as they can't really attack them over the economy which is in good shape then Iraq has become the stick to beat them with. Honestly most people you want to "emancipate" couldn't give a fuck about Iraq.


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## lewislewis (Sep 26, 2006)

I agree with the first part of what Brockway said.

On the second part, I think alot of working class peeps were against the war but didn't participate in the actual movement, and didn't necessarily change their vote over it. It seems to have blown over a bit now, but it has definitely changed things. The UK won't be going to war with ease again, that's for sure.


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## osterberg (Sep 26, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Marx wrote that when the working-class had to endure deplorable and dangerous working conditions. Today we live in one of the richest countries on earth. Sure there are economic inequalities in our society but being poor in Britain in 2006 ain't as scary as it used to be. And you have to come to terms with the reality that the working-class LIKE capitalism. You do a dull but not dangerous job and you go to Majorca for 2 weeks; you buy some computer games; you get a flat-screen tv; you get Sky. This may come as a shock to you but people are quite happy with that. Working-class people don't want to sit around reading Karl Marx that's for sure.
> 
> The anti-war movement (if you're on about Iraq) has largely bypassed the working-class, it is a topic that has mostly engaged the chattering classes, middle-class liberals and of course the media. The media is the real opposition to New Labour and as they can't really attack them over the economy which is in good shape then Iraq has become the stick to beat them with. Honestly most people you want to "emancipate" couldn't give a fuck about Iraq.



 I do see where you're coming from . Things seem to have improved , We've got all this stuff we can go out and buy. 

That's all true but it doesn't necessarily mean the working class like capitalism.They,most of them, just don't see an alternative.

 There's debt,unaffordable housing,low pay,hospital waiting lists , not being able to get an NHS dentist , your kids joining the army and being sent off to be an instrument of U.S foreign policy,the council not sorting out the damp in the bathroom , the council closing the local school , the company you work relocating abroad and making the staff redundant.And so it goes on.

 The question is what the working class can do about it . And that doesn't mean sitting about all day reading Marx and doesn't mean Plaid or Respect AM's doing it for them (although any Respect AMs being elected isn't going to happen any time soon) .

 Working class people have to  fight back for themselves and that means in  in their communities , participating in their communities , in campaigns , in elections and most of all in their workplace and trade unions ( if they've got one ) as that's where they have actual economic power if they realised it.

 And working class socialists have to be part of the sort of activities and not just there to say 'vote for me I'll sort it all out'.

 People who say that won't sort it all out. But they will provide tax cuts for businesses so those businesses can supply all those lovely low paid jobs.

 By the way my job _is_ dull but its potentially very dangerous . Dangerous jobs have not disappeared just cause the pits have closed.
 And no,I can't afford a holiday in Majorca or a wide screen TV nor would I desire them .
 I do buy computers games ( but usually second hand ).
 I definitely don't get Sky but I do get freeview .

 By the way I don't think Respect have a prayer at the assembly elections as Plaid and the Lib Dems tend to suck up the left of Labour vote . Of course that might change depending on Plaid's performance if they form the next assembly government.

  As for the anti-war demos you'll find plenty of working class people on them.
After all most people have to work for a living and therefore are working class.
Military Families against the War were at last Saturday's demo in Manchester and they are definitely working class.As are the trade unionists on the march.There were many TU banners.

 There is a good report on the demo here

  I agree with lewis lewis when he says that the UK won't find it so easy to go to war again as a result of the  demonstrations . At least possibly not on the same scale as the Iraq war.

 By the way the above is all my own ramblings off the top of my head. It doesn't represent a Respect line or anything.
Please feel free to shoot it down in flames.


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## osterberg (Sep 26, 2006)

Just than this list of Trade Union banners on the Manchester demo.


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## Brockway (Sep 26, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Just than this list of Trade Union banners on the Manchester demo.



Yeah but Trade Union activists are politicos, they're not the council estates spontaneously rising up are they. And it's a day out.


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## Brockway (Sep 26, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> That's all true but it doesn't necessarily mean the working class like capitalism.They,most of them, just don't see an alternative.
> 
> _No honestly they do like it. There's a basic human instinct for novelty for a start - if you give a child a grey toy and a toy that is brightly coloured and makes funny noises - it will play with the latter. Marxism is the grey toy, Capitalism is the sparkly one. Most working class people aren't against the capitalist sytem at all - they would love the opportunity themselves to be rich. They don't want an alternative they want a ticket in the lottery._
> 
> ...


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## lewislewis (Sep 26, 2006)

I do differ to Brockway slightly but most of his points are right. I actually think the anti-war movement was superb and although it didn't revolutionise the working classes it had an impact on them, politicised some of them (not permanently) and had a significant impact on UK politics.

But yeah, I think we can solve some issues without fighting. You're right, we do have economic power, we should organise into unions always and should strike when we are exploited. I'm the first to support strikes and participate in them also.


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## niclas (Sep 27, 2006)

I thought the plan was to cut tax for businesses in the depressed Valleys and W Wales (i.e. the Objective One areas)? 

 This thread manages to ignore the positives that came out of the conference...

- the launch of "Muslims for Plaid" grassroots movement - the party has three Muslim county councillors.
 - the party is affiliated to Defend Council Housing and at the forefront of that battle in various councils.
 - its members are leading the campaigns against landfill in Hafod quarry, the hospital closures in Withybush and Llandudno and solidly against the LNG pipeline across the south.
 - a majority of its members are women (quite a surprise for me in macho Welsh politics) and many of them are going to be AMs come next May?
- it gave the Burberry workers a great reception as well as Mark Serwotka of the PCS.
- it is unequivocably anti-war and anti-imperialist.
- the launch of practical (i.e. achievable within a four-year term) policies to tackle issues such as affordable housing, student debt and elderly health care. From door knocking we've done locally, these are key issues.

 Plaid's programme for the coming Assembly elections is radical reformist - like the WSA was and the CNWP and Respect are now. The difference is that Plaid will get people elected and some of them will be revolutionary socialists (and, no, I don't just mean Leanne).


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Yeah but Trade Union activists are politicos, they're not the council estates spontaneously rising up are they. And it's a day out.


 Well I never said anything about council estates spontaneously rising up.
 Maybe the TU activists are 'politicos' (not that there is anything wrong with that) but they're also working class.If they are shop stewards or union reps it is because they were elected to those positions by workers.
 People didn't go to the demo for a day out,they went to demonstrate their anger at Blair and his warmongering ways.
 A four and a half bus trip to Manchester is not fun.
If I wanted a good day out last Saturday there a lot of other things I could have done.


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## Brockway (Sep 27, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Well I never said anything about council estates spontaneously rising up.
> Maybe the TU activists are 'politicos' (not that there is anything wrong with that) but they're also working class.If they are shop stewards or union reps it is because they were elected to those positions by workers.
> People didn't go to the demo for a day out,they went to demonstrate their anger at Blair and his warmongering ways.
> A four and a half bus trip to Manchester is not fun.
> If I wanted a good day out last Saturday there a lot of other things I could have done.



But TU activists are a minority and it is their duty to go on such rallies - they are not representative of the working class as a whole (whether they are elected in a work situation or not). Politicos don't count. Where were the council estate working class on that rally?


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

deleted


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> osterberg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> But TU activists are a minority and it is their duty to go on such rallies - they are not representative of the working class as a whole (whether they are elected in a work situation or not). Politicos don't count. Where were the council estate working class on that rally?


 Oh you little hairsplitter,you. 
Tell you what,next demo I go on I'll go round asking if anyone lives on a council estate.
Or maybe I'll be able to tell by their whippets and flat caps?


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> I thought the plan was to cut tax for businesses in the depressed Valleys and W Wales (i.e. the Objective One areas)?
> 
> This thread manages to ignore the positives that came out of the conference...
> 
> ...


 Nice party political broadcast.
Lets see if you carry out all those radical poicies if you get elected at the next assembly elections.


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## Brockway (Sep 27, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Brockway said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

"LOL"you say?
 I am hurt 
I do apologise that our several milion Respect members have not covered every single working class estate in the entire universe and have been unable to visit your humble abode.

 Why do you see huge queues on telly of people trying to get NHS dentists?
Must be a figure of my fevered imagination.

 I went to uni when there were no fees and there were plenty of working class students.Mind you I went to the Uni of Glam. 

 Very cynical,aren't you?

I'm not talking to you anymore,you're making me depressed.


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## lewislewis (Sep 27, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Nice party political broadcast.
> Lets see if you carry out all those radical poicies if you get elected at the next assembly elections.



But he was actually at the conference, you and I were not.


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## osterberg (Sep 27, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> But he was actually at the conference, you and I were not.


 Your point is?


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## zog (Sep 27, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> But he was actually at the conference, you and I were not.



Now I was at this years confrence, though not as a Plaid member, would that make my opinions more valid?


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## llantwit (Sep 27, 2006)

zog said:
			
		

> Now I was at this years confrence, though not as a Plaid member, would that make my opinions more valid?


But aren't you inglish?
Watch out. Brockway'll be torching yer shed.


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## zog (Sep 27, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But aren't you inglish?
> Watch out. Brockway'll be torching yer shed.




Sssshhhhh. They've allready started spraying green paint over the English signs in Splott. Must be the invading hordes from Pontcanna.


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## niclas (Sep 27, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Nice party political broadcast.


 



			
				osterberg said:
			
		

> Lets see if you carry out all those radical poicies if you get elected at the next assembly elections.



Agreed. The point is to change the world, not just to pass resolutions to change it.


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 27, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Agreed. The point is to change the world, not just to pass resolutions to change it.



Niclas gives a spirited defence of Plaid - but if this is what Plaid really stand for, it is odd that these are not the policies that they have chosen to highlight to the media?  And these weren't policies that were highlighted by Ieuan Wyn Jones, the leader.

Plaid are hardly unequivocally anti-imperialist.  Only a handful of your elected representatives deign to actively support the anti-war movement and Plaid's position on the occupation of Iraq is frankly crap.  Plaid oppose an immediate withdrawal of troops and want a phased withdrawal with the UN taking over.  Let me assure you Niclas that UN troops would have about as much credibility in Iraq as NATO troops in Afghanistan.

Which members of Plaid likely to be elected are revolutionary socialists?  Personally, I find the idea that members of Plaid are revolutionary laughable.


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## Brockway (Sep 27, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But aren't you inglish?
> Watch out. Brockway'll be torching yer shed.



I've been checking your ancestry llantwit and I've discovered some Anglo-Saxon imperialist blood so you'd better watch your step sunshine. Zog's already on my repatriation list for being a bit cheeky.


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## niclas (Sep 27, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Niclas gives a spirited defence of Plaid - but if this is what Plaid really stand for, it is odd that these are not the policies that they have chosen to highlight to the media?  And these weren't policies that were highlighted by Ieuan Wyn Jones, the leader.



Policy is what is passed democratically at conference. The speech was about highlighting the need to win back trust and such generalities.




			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Plaid are hardly unequivocally anti-imperialist.  Only a handful of your elected representatives deign to actively support the anti-war movement and Plaid's position on the occupation of Iraq is frankly crap.  Plaid oppose an immediate withdrawal of troops and want a phased withdrawal with the UN taking over.  Let me assure you Niclas that UN troops would have about as much credibility in Iraq as NATO troops in Afghanistan.



We all know how well you treated one of Plaid's most prominent anti-war activists in Cardiff STW... don't lecture me about the war and who organised against it. 




			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Which members of Plaid likely to be elected are revolutionary socialists?  Personally, I find the idea that members of Plaid are revolutionary laughable.


That hurts... coming from a Respectoid.


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## lewislewis (Sep 28, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Which members of Plaid likely to be elected are revolutionary socialists?  Personally, I find the idea that members of Plaid are revolutionary laughable.



George Galloway?


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## lewislewis (Sep 28, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Your point is?



My point is you don't know what exact policies were decided, you'll only know what was in the media (until Nicdafis shared some points with us). 

I still think Plaid is the most progressive political force in Wales.


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## Ben Bore (Sep 28, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> (until Nicdafis shared some points with us).



I don't think niclas is NicDafis (unless there's two of them)


----------



## osterberg (Sep 28, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> My point is you don't know what exact policies were decided, you'll only know what was in the media (until Nicdafis shared some points with us).
> 
> I still think Plaid is the most progressive political force in Wales.



 I was _not _disputing what Niclas said about the conference.

A fine set of policies(the ones I read in Niclas' post that is )

I'll be interested to see if they'll be implemented if Plaid become the next assembly government.


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## Karac (Sep 28, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I was _not _disputing what Niclas said about the conference.
> 
> A fine set of policies(the ones I read in Niclas' post that is )
> 
> I'll be interested to see if they'll be implemented if Plaid become the next assembly government.


I personally dont think Plaid is anywhere near becoming the next Assembly govt-tho i do think there will be a few gains.
Labours going to lose a few seats guaranteed-the Tories have probably peaked and the Lib-dems could go either way.
A Labour/Lib Dem coalition has to be the most likely scenario


----------



## Karac (Sep 29, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> .  But Ireland is a low wage economy of gross equality and poverty.  Plaid accept all the arguments of the free market, globalisation and the results of this.


Ireland has a better living standard than the ffycing UK!!!!

Its not a low wage economy compared to Wales.
In fact Ireland has bloomed during its independence-why?
They make the most of EU subsidies,tax reliefs for companies -why doesnt Wales do the same?


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## snadge (Sep 29, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Ireland has a better living standard than the ffycing UK!!!!
> 
> Its not a low wage economy compared to Wales.
> In fact Ireland has bloomed during its independence-why?
> They make the most of EU subsidies,tax reliefs for companies -why doesnt Wales do the same?



I already pointed that out to him in post 2#, when he ignored it and spouted once more I gave up...

Eire has made previously agreed wage structures a priority, whenever new labour is taken on, unions are involved...


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## lewislewis (Sep 29, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I don't think niclas is NicDafis (unless there's two of them)



Oops, i've confused two different posters on two different forums,
who have similar names and are both respected by myself.


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 29, 2006)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I was _not _disputing what Niclas said about the conference.
> 
> A fine set of policies(the ones I read in Niclas' post that is )
> 
> I'll be interested to see if they'll be implemented if Plaid become the next assembly government.



If Plaid was part of a governing coalition, i'll wager some of those policies will come into play (if London allows it).


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 29, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Ireland has a better living standard than the ffycing UK!!!!
> 
> Its not a low wage economy compared to Wales.
> In fact Ireland has bloomed during its independence-why?
> They make the most of EU subsidies,tax reliefs for companies -why doesnt Wales do the same?



It's ridiculous.

We could save the Burberry factory workers jobs in one easy swoop to make the company stay. 

I've just been looking at some graphs about economy and such. It seems the European, typically social democratic countries have the smallest gaps between rich and poor than anywhere else in the West.


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## neprimerimye (Oct 1, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> I thought the plan was to cut tax for businesses in the depressed Valleys and W Wales (i.e. the Objective One areas)?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Plaid's programme for the coming Assembly elections is radical reformist - like the WSA was and the CNWP and Respect are now. The difference is that Plaid will get people elected and some of them will be revolutionary socialists (and, no, I don't just mean Leanne).



Niclas the points you make are good one's but they leave me baffled as to the nature of Plaid Cymru. You tell us that it's program is 'radical reformist' but I can find no radical reforms in that program. You list a set of positions which Plaid has adopted but for the most part such positions as 'anti-imperialism' are abstract lacking in practical content. The only serious, if minor, reform i can discover in said program is for an increase in the minimum wage.

Furthermore you tell us that Plaid, in power, will seek to encourage the creation of jobs by granting businesses tax cuts in named areas. This may be a good policy for those areas, although I'm not fully convinced it is, and is certainly a good policy for the businesses in question but in no sense can such a policy be portaryed as a reform of any kind. n fact the granting of tax breaks to businesses is a pro-capitalist policy contrary to the interests of working people who must bear the burden of decreased state revenues.

To take your post at face vlaue then you would seem to be suggesting that revolutionary socialist members of Plaid Cymru would, if in power, subsidise big business. But surely revolutionary socialists fight for the destruction of the bourgeois state and big business and are not concerned with administering the state to the benefit of big business?


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## neprimerimye (Oct 1, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Marx wrote that when the working-class had to endure deplorable and dangerous working conditions.



Marx wrote nothing of the kind. His position was that the exploitation of the working clas would lead to the progressive immiseration of that class. In 2006 only a fool would understand that conception to refer to the absolute immiseration of the exploited. Rather it should be taken as a reference to the ever higher rate of exploitation of the working class.


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## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Marx wrote nothing of the kind. His position was that the exploitation of the working clas would lead to the progressive immiseration of that class. In 2006 only a fool would understand that conception to refer to the absolute immiseration of the exploited. Rather it should be taken as a reference to the ever higher rate of exploitation of the working class.



And of course to psychological alienation.  BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.


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## neprimerimye (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> And of course to psychological alienation.  BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.



Plaid Cymru can more easily drop nationalism than the language issue.

Indeed given that Plaid is in favour of remaining within the imperialist cartel that is the EU it could be argued that they have already dropped the demand for an independent national state.

One cannot but wonder whether the so called revolutionary socialists within Plaid are in favour of remaining within the EU.


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## rhys gethin (Oct 2, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> And of course to psychological alienation.  BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.



I had wondered what you'd been doing to offend so many people.   I see that the problem is writing bullshit.   Give it up!

You mean the Newlabour-type 'power' to administer the same old squalor?   There are very good class objections to adopting that plan, but to go for Anglo-chauvinist grovelling as well, no, I don't think so.


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## lewislewis (Oct 3, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> n fact the granting of tax breaks to businesses is a pro-capitalist policy contrary to the interests of working people who must bear the burden of decreased state revenues.



In all cases where the business tax cut has been used strategically, state revenues have ended up being increased. Adam Price thoroughly researched and checked it to make sure.

The key taxation principle behind parties like Plaid, the SNP et al is actually to increase taxation in general (e.g Plaid's policy of 50% or maybe 75% top rate income tax) if it guarantees an improved performance by the state.
Cutting corporation tax is a (very clever) strategic economic policy to create jobs in impoverished parts of Wales. The economic growth in those areas can then be taxed normally and if Norway & Ireland's corporation tax cuts are anything to go by, state revenue will end up being more than before within 5 years or so.


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## Ben Bore (Oct 3, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> And of course to psychological alienation.  BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.




Shit, those sneaky bastards trying to blind us with a proposal to reform company tax (in the hope of encouraging businesses big and small to set up in Wales *and stay*), and thinking we'd not notice that their other policies include forcing everyone at gunpoint to speak Welsh.  

Sneaky, very sneaky


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 3, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> In all cases where the business tax cut has been used strategically, state revenues have ended up being increased. Adam Price thoroughly researched and checked it to make sure.
> 
> The key taxation principle behind parties like Plaid, the SNP et al is actually to increase taxation in general (e.g Plaid's policy of 50% or maybe 75% top rate income tax) if it guarantees an improved performance by the state.
> Cutting corporation tax is a (very clever) strategic economic policy to create jobs in impoverished parts of Wales. The economic growth in those areas can then be taxed normally and if Norway & Ireland's corporation tax cuts are anything to go by, state revenue will end up being more than before within 5 years or so.



The problem is that your model simply doesn't work as it is based on the constant expansion of the economy. Now IF the economy is expaning and IF you can attract large quantities of new capital then you may increase state revenues that is true.

But in the real world the economy does not constantly expand and is subject to periods of recession and even slump. In addition to which if the trick works as well as you suggest then other countries will follow suit and offer similar tax breaks at which point the tax breaks Wales might offer would have no competitive advantage.

Moreover even alowing that the trick might work there is absolutely no guarantee that increased state revenues would be used to the advantage of the working people. The best then that might be expected if the tax cuts worked is a series of low paying isecure low tech jobs that could be easily shifted to another country.

What is for certain is that there is nothing socialist, leave alone revolutionary, about such pro-imperialist measures.


----------



## lewislewis (Oct 4, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The problem is that your model simply doesn't work as it is based on the constant expansion of the economy. Now IF the economy is expaning and IF you can attract large quantities of new capital then you may increase state revenues that is true.
> 
> But in the real world the economy does not constantly expand and is subject to periods of recession and even slump. In addition to which if the trick works as well as you suggest then other countries will follow suit and offer similar tax breaks at which point the tax breaks Wales might offer would have no competitive advantage.
> 
> ...



I'm not outlining a one-size economic solution to Wales' problems.

I just pointed 1 single policy of lowering corporation tax to get businesses to set up and stay.
The policy has not yet failed to work. I am confident that the correct research and feasability study would be applied by Wales' financial community (i.e the capitalist bloodsuckers).

A Plaid government would be certain to use the resulting state revenues for the advantage of working class people, because the vast majority of people in Wales are working class people.
We are not talking about low-paid insecure jobs, we're talking about an alternative to unemployment and to heroin being the biggest industry in the valleys.


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 5, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I just pointed 1 single policy of lowering corporation tax to get businesses to set up and stay.
> The policy has not yet failed to work. I am confident that the correct research and feasability study would be applied by Wales' financial community (i.e the capitalist bloodsuckers).
> 
> A Plaid government would be certain to use the resulting state revenues for the advantage of working class people, because the vast majority of people in Wales are working class people.
> We are not talking about low-paid insecure jobs, we're talking about an alternative to unemployment and to heroin being the biggest industry in the valleys.



Capitalism is a competitive system in which each and every country and enterprise exists in a state of constant hostility with all other countries and enterprises. One exprerssion of this competition is the constant seeking after advantages. The provision of tax breaks would be such an advantage for those companies benefitting from them.

It follows that those countries providing such benefits to the rapacious companies that will receive them will in turn have an advantage in the market. However as more and more countries follow suit the advantage which those adopting this policy once had will dissappear as their competitors adopt the self same policy thereby negating the advantage for all concerned.

Moreover such a policy to be of advantage to a country operating it cannot be operated in isolation to toher policies. Thus tax breaks for multinationals worked very well for that country in part because of increased investment in that countrys educational system in earlier years and the davabntages of being a relatively low wage economy in which the entire workforce speaks English. Advantages which Plaid cannot replicate with its educational and language policies.

It is naive in the extreme to believe that tax breaks which have helped boost the economies of some few countries can be equally beneficial if adopted by their competitors. It is however even more naive to claim that Plaid Cymru if it were ever to hold state power would distribute extra state income equitably simply because a majority of the population of Wales are working class. I note that where Plaid Cymru has been in power in local councils it has had no compunction to operate the same pro-boss financial regimen as the Labour Party.


----------



## llantwit (Oct 5, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> A Plaid government would be certain to use the resulting state revenues for the advantage of working class people, because the vast majority of people in Wales are working class people.


What kind of argument is that? The working class are the majority in every country, surely.


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## lewislewis (Oct 5, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> What kind of argument is that? The working class are the majority in every country, surely.



Exactly, so I don't see how spending tax revenue will not benefit the working classes.


----------



## lewislewis (Oct 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Capitalism is a competitive system in which each and every country and enterprise exists in a state of constant hostility with all other countries and enterprises. One exprerssion of this competition is the constant seeking after advantages. The provision of tax breaks would be such an advantage for those companies benefitting from them.
> 
> It follows that those countries providing such benefits to the rapacious companies that will receive them will in turn have an advantage in the market. However as more and more countries follow suit the advantage which those adopting this policy once had will dissappear as their competitors adopt the self same policy thereby negating the advantage for all concerned.
> 
> ...



Possibly but you seem to suggest that Wales' entire economy would be based around giving tax breaks to multi-nationals.
It is only one single policy that Plaid would only want to apply to two specific areas of Wales, to regenerate those areas in question. Economies in Europe aren't generally using this targeted policy. 

Hang on, do you not think Wales has an English speaking, relatively low wage work force? It's lower wage then Ireland, England or Scotland : (

The state revenues, if Wales was run by a social democratic government (Plaid or similar), would benefit the people of Wales in general in building infrastructure, providing education and healthcare (for free- you shouldn't have to pay if you're already paying taxes). As far as local council goes, it is impossible to compare local groups of Plaid councillors (who are generally ordinary people, teachers, retired workers, workers) running councils to an active national government orchestrated by Plaid Cymru. It isn't what you're looking for because it does not accord to Marxist academia. However, I think it would create a country which would be better to live in than the current set up we have.

Possibly not equally beneficial (i'm not expecting Wales to turn into a European social democratic model overnight), but I think for the 2 poorest areas of Wales concerned, the policy would be beneficial. Lets have jobs being created rather than factories closing. Is that really such a bad thing?


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## llantwit (Oct 5, 2006)

I think that Nep's main point is that the tax-cuts for business policy would end us up in the same place we're in now a bit further down the line, except that because of what few factories/businesses we have closing  and relocating to follow the cheap labour they'd be closing to follow the bigger tax-cuts.
He's not an academic, btw.


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## neprimerimye (Oct 5, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Possibly but you seem to suggest that Wales' entire economy would be based around giving tax breaks to multi-nationals.
> It is only one single policy that Plaid would only want to apply to two specific areas of Wales, to regenerate those areas in question. Economies in Europe aren't generally using this targeted policy.
> 
> Hang on, do you not think Wales has an English speaking, relatively low wage work force? It's lower wage then Ireland, England or Scotland : (
> ...



There is nothing in my post to suggest that I believe that any economic policy instituted by a Plaid Cymru govt would be based on the one policy you have discussed. It makes no odds however whether that policy were applied to the whole of Wales or specific regions in regard to its economic effectiveness as a pump primer which is its intended purpose.

That it can be of limited impact with regard to individual regions i do not dispute. But as you point out it is a policy already in place in various conutries and as such the point remains that as such it cannot confer an economic advantage if alrady in use throughout wide swathes of Europe. At best it can confer some advantage for specific regions and as such it must also confer some disadvatage for other regions. Snakes and ladders in other words.

Now it is certainly true that Wales has a low wage economy and is English speaking to boot. But the policy of tax breaks for super rich companies is, if I understand you correctly, advocated for regions in which Welsh is at least in part the more wodely spoken and is advocated by a party which is most asidous in its eforts to encourage the speaking of Welsh in part through development of the Welsh medium sector in education. Which I note is a very different policy to that of other Euopean countries which have sought to encourage the populace to learn second langauges which might give an advantage in commerce. Which cannot be true of Welsh.

With regard to your defense of the reationary policies followed by Plaids local councillors it is no defense at all. The members of Plaid are policial activists just as are those of their number who function as professional politicians by virtue of being elected representatives in Westminster or Cardiff Bay and are to be judged accordingly. Indeed if the local councillors are so weak, by virtue yo tell us of being 'ordinary people', to kowtow to reactionary policies when in office why do the members of Plaid select them? Why not select the revolutionary socialists in Plaid we were told of earlier inthis thread?


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## neprimerimye (Oct 5, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> He's not an academic, btw.



Ain't even got a degree mate.


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## Ben Bore (Oct 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Now it is certainly true that Wales has a low wage economy and is English speaking to boot. But the policy of tax breaks for super rich companies is, if I understand you correctly, advocated for regions in which Welsh is at least in part the more wodely spoken and is advocated by a party which is most asidous in its eforts to encourage the speaking of Welsh in part through development of the Welsh medium sector in education. Which I note is a very different policy to that of other Euopean countries which have sought to encourage the populace to learn second langauges which might give an advantage in commerce. Which cannot be true of Welsh.



Not that I think that langugae has anything to do with it, but the Basque Country and Catalunia are the two most prosperous 'regions' in Spain, and they encourage the populace to learn a second langugae much more asidously (whatever that means) than here in Wales.


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## neprimerimye (Oct 5, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> Not that I think that langugae has anything to do with it, but the Basque Country and Catalunia are the two most prosperous 'regions' in Spain, and they encourage the populace to learn a second langugae much more asidously (whatever that means) than here in Wales.



Quite right langauge had nothing to do with the economic development of Catalunya and Euskadi. Imperialism did however.

Both developing as a result of the imperialist policies of Britain and not as a result of the economic policies of the Spanish government. Having achieved a level of economic develoment surpassing that of much of Spain they have maintained that lead but not as a result of the policies of the central state. In spite of them perhaps.

The role of a second language speaks, as it were, to the internationalised nature of the economy. Specifically in relation to the role that capital from non-British EU states has played in the development of the Celtic Tiger where the possession of a second language by sections of the workforce has had a major role in the investment of such capital. Ireland after all was one of the examples given as to how tax breaks for TNCs could benefit the people of Wales i note.


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## lewislewis (Oct 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Quite right langauge had nothing to do with the economic development of Catalunya and Euskadi. Imperialism did however.
> 
> Both developing as a result of the imperialist policies of Britain and not as a result of the economic policies of the Spanish government. Having achieved a level of economic develoment surpassing that of much of Spain they have maintained that lead but not as a result of the policies of the central state. In spite of them perhaps.
> 
> The role of a second language speaks, as it were, to the internationalised nature of the economy. Specifically in relation to the role that capital from non-British EU states has played in the development of the Celtic Tiger where the possession of a second language by sections of the workforce has had a major role in the investment of such capital. Ireland after all was one of the examples given as to how tax breaks for TNCs could benefit the people of Wales i note.



Regarding languages, perhaps Ben means the Basque and Catalan languages, rather than languages that would be economically useful. Proves that countries can have language development for reasons that aren't economic. Which will be the same with Wales.


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## lewislewis (Oct 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> There is nothing in my post to suggest that I believe that any economic policy instituted by a Plaid Cymru govt would be based on the one policy you have discussed. It makes no odds however whether that policy were applied to the whole of Wales or specific regions in regard to its economic effectiveness as a pump primer which is its intended purpose.
> 
> That it can be of limited impact with regard to individual regions i do not dispute. But as you point out it is a policy already in place in various conutries and as such the point remains that as such it cannot confer an economic advantage if alrady in use throughout wide swathes of Europe. At best it can confer some advantage for specific regions and as such it must also confer some disadvatage for other regions. Snakes and ladders in other words.
> 
> ...



The policy wouldn't disadvantage other parts of Wales, most of Wales is economically developing, it's just the parts lagging behind we want to kickstart. At the same time, there must also be policies in place to help those who lose out from competition. In areas of social justice, pensions, minimum wage and housing Plaid would make a great impact (better than any other govt Wales has ever had).
It is a policy that has been used (not that widely), I could only find a handful of examples in Europe although tax breaks might be carried out elsewhere for other reasons. It certainly isn't in use throughout wide swathes of Europe, and if packaged with other incentives will boost those 2 areas of Wales.

Language does not come into it. Your take on the policy seems now to hint that, we're doing it to provide jobs in Welsh-speaking areas. This isn't true. Apologies if i've gotten you wrong. Welsh language has no relevance whatsoever to this single economic policy.

Finally, I think Plaid councillors do the best possible job out of all the parties in Wales that have had councillors elected. Their local govt policies are the most agreeable to me, although it's limited how much ideology we can actually implement at that level. That is my defence of them.


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 6, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Regarding languages, perhaps Ben means the Basque and Catalan languages, rather than languages that would be economically useful. Proves that countries can have language development for reasons that aren't economic. Which will be the same with Wales.



Like it or not all linguistic changes in this epoch cannot be other than connected with economic policies. But that has nothing to do with the effectiveness or otherwise of the tax breaks which Plaid Cymru proposes to gift the multinationals with.


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 6, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The policy wouldn't disadvantage other parts of Wales, most of Wales is economically developing, it's just the parts lagging behind we want to kickstart. At the same time, there must also be policies in place to help those who lose out from competition. In areas of social justice, pensions, minimum wage and housing Plaid would make a great impact (better than any other govt Wales has ever had).
> It is a policy that has been used (not that widely), I could only find a handful of examples in Europe although tax breaks might be carried out elsewhere for other reasons. It certainly isn't in use throughout wide swathes of Europe, and if packaged with other incentives will boost those 2 areas of Wales.
> 
> Language does not come into it. Your take on the policy seems now to hint that, we're doing it to provide jobs in Welsh-speaking areas. This isn't true. Apologies if i've gotten you wrong. Welsh language has no relevance whatsoever to this single economic policy.
> ...



There is no suggestion on my part that by granting tax breaks to multimillionaires in return for some pitifully small investments in say Carmarthenshire that Cardiff would be thereby disadvantaged. the point is that such tax breaks will not guarantee investments given that Wales is not and cannot be unique in granting them to the super rich. In whch case it is not just Cardiff that Carmarthen would be competing with but  towns and cities in Poland, Bulgaria and Roumania, etc. All other factors being equal who do you think will win in such a copetition to the bottom?

Now you say that it is a policy that has not been widely used in other parts of Europe. That is true but you do not say why. Ibn fact it is a policy that is not used and cannot be used by any government within the EU, whether Uk or an independent Wales is irrelevant, because the policy itself is deemed to breach all kinds of agreements as to competition within the EU. in short it is illegal and unless Plaid were to take Wales out of the EU it will remain illegal even under a Plaid administration. Although I further note that Plaid is actually in favour of the EU which makes any promise to grant tax cuts to MNC's a hollow lie.

Quite we agree that in itself langauge is not relevant to the efficacy of this single policy. Although it is worth noting that where this policy was succesfully used in the Irish free State, prior to accesion to the EU and current regulations rendering the policy defunct, the ability of the irish boss class to provide a workforce that had linguistic abilities rare in Wales was a factor in the policies temporary success.

Your defence of Plaid local councilors, that they are no more crap than any others, is pitiful. Certainly councillors have very few real powers these days but perhaps they might use their access to the media to actually point this fact of political life out to the populace? Or are they more comfortable accepting the largesse oof the state and bickering about how to implement cuts?


----------



## lewislewis (Oct 7, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> There is no suggestion on my part that by granting tax breaks to multimillionaires in return for some pitifully small investments in say Carmarthenshire that Cardiff would be thereby disadvantaged. the point is that such tax breaks will not guarantee investments given that Wales is not and cannot be unique in granting them to the super rich. In whch case it is not just Cardiff that Carmarthen would be competing with but  towns and cities in Poland, Bulgaria and Roumania, etc. All other factors being equal who do you think will win in such a copetition to the bottom?
> 
> Now you say that it is a policy that has not been widely used in other parts of Europe. That is true but you do not say why. Ibn fact it is a policy that is not used and cannot be used by any government within the EU, whether Uk or an independent Wales is irrelevant, because the policy itself is deemed to breach all kinds of agreements as to competition within the EU. in short it is illegal and unless Plaid were to take Wales out of the EU it will remain illegal even under a Plaid administration. Although I further note that Plaid is actually in favour of the EU which makes any promise to grant tax cuts to MNC's a hollow lie.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure on the technicalities of it but I don't think any areas would be seriously disadvantaged. IF there was any disadvantage, it would perhaps even things out and close the regional disparity. But I don't think more prosperous parts of Wales that are already economically growing would lose out at all.
Competition with those countries depends on what services Wales offers, we still have an English-speaking, well educated workforce so for innovative things we'll do well. 

Countries in the EU have already used this policy. Any country can lower corporation tax whenever it wants.

Plaid councillors overall do a great job thank you very much, we're always working with hands tied behind backs and on pitiful revenues.


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 7, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I'm not sure on the technicalities of it but I don't think any areas would be seriously disadvantaged. IF there was any disadvantage, it would perhaps even things out and close the regional disparity. But I don't think more prosperous parts of Wales that are already economically growing would lose out at all.
> Competition with those countries depends on what services Wales offers, we still have an English-speaking, well educated workforce so for innovative things we'll do well.
> 
> Countries in the EU have already used this policy. Any country can lower corporation tax whenever it wants.
> ...



Head in sand. Convergence.


----------



## kate44 (Oct 7, 2006)

i would like to big up adam price the plaid MP for caerfyrddin-(east) who started a campaign to impeach MR. ANTHONY BLAIR some time ago


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## neprimerimye (Oct 7, 2006)

kate44 said:
			
		

> i would like to big up adam price the plaid MP for caerfyrddin-(east) who started a campaign to impeach MR. ANTHONY BLAIR some time ago



Such a tactic being an effective method of demobilising the anti-war movement as it places the emphasis on parliamentary action. In other words it is a tactic that is opposed to the oly method of combating imperialist war namely workers struggle.


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 12, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Such a tactic being an effective method of demobilising the anti-war movement as it places the emphasis on parliamentary action. In other words it is a tactic that is opposed to the oly method of combating imperialist war namely workers struggle.



I have to disagree with you.  Surely, you don't oppose Military Families against the War trying to get support in the courts for a public inquiry into the case for going to war?  I think that if Blair was impeached it would surely be a victory for the anti-war movement, but if we are brutally honest the campaign has been failure, there is no chance of Blair being impeached.  The supporters of the campaign could have used it as a good publicity stunt to publicise Blair's war crimes - in a similar manner to the Russell-Sartre International War Crimes Tribunal, but it looks like Adam Price MP was more locked into the game of trying to get support from other politicians rather than building mass public meeetings across the UK.

Niclas is a joker when he claims that Plaid are anti-imperialist.  They seriously wobbled over opposing the occupation of Iraq.  In the 2003 Assembly elections they took the safe option of "don't mention the war", because their had recently been a surge of support in the early weeks of the occupation.  This is quite typical of reformist parties who are prepared to sell out an occupied people if it will gain them votes.

I remember an article in 2003/4 in Heddwch (magazine of CND Cymru) where the deputy leader of Plaid, Jill Evans MEP wrote: "we can't just walk away".  A slightly stupid statement as the imperialist occupiers of that country have no intention of walking away until they set-up a pro-western client state that will let them fleece the natural resources of Iraq or are driven out by the resistance.

But more fundamentally, Plaid's position of the occupation of Iraq is fundamentally misguided and blatantly not anti-imperialist.  They don't call for all foreign troops to _leave_ Iraq, they actually call for foreign troops to be _sent to_ Iraq!

Plaid want to pull out US/UK troops and replace them with Muslim troops.  They seem to forget that the Americans have already used Muslim Iraqi troops to massacre and crush uprisings in Fallujah, Mosul and elsewhere.

Leaving aside, the question of whether any Muslim country would want to send troops to Iraq.  Where would these Muslim troops come from?  Iran, Syria, Lebanon or Palestine?  Of course not, these countries are not client-states of the US.  The US would insist that they came from the regimes that they prop-up.  I'm sure that Muslim Turkey would love to send troops into Iraqi Kurdistan! 

Plaid also now talk of neutral UN troops.  It is clear that things have moved beyond the stage where changing the colour of the helmets would help things and I can guarantee that the UN will have as much success in Iraq as NATO in Afghanistan.  

Imagine a situation where the US was being forced to withdraw, how would they continue to dominate Iraq?  They would go for the UN figleaf.  American troops are  getting seriously bogged down in Iraq, they might well soon hope to be bailed out by UN troops.  The idea that UN troops in Iraq would be independent of the foreign-policy objectives of the United States is naive.

Plaid's support of a UN occupation also fails to look at the evidence of other countries where the UN have stepped in, such as Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti

In Kosovo, Imperialist Viceroy, Paddy Ashdown is a dictator who can sack democratically elected governments and there have been demonstrations against the UN.  In Kosovo, under the UN dictatorship, UN forces and their paid surrogates have been running a mini-Guantanamo.  In the Congo, UN troops are involved in sex-trafficking.  In a country like Iraq where nationalist sentiment is far higher, a UN occupation would prolong the agony of the Iraqi people.


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## niclas (Oct 13, 2006)

Adam Price leads a v high-profile campaign to impeach Blair and yet Plaid is accused of playing down its anti-war stance. Yeah, sure. 

This posturing about "we're considerably more anti-imperialist than you" would be funny if we weren't dealing with such a serious subject. I remember Respect trying to score points in the last election about how immediate the withdrawal should be. Unless you were calling for UK troops out in an instant "beam me up Scotty" sense, you were a sell out.

I await the next instalment of "Plaid to blame for Congolese rapists" with interest.


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## snadge (Oct 13, 2006)

jesus wept, this thread has become so derailed it's like the teletubbies against big business.

My observations still haven't been addressed.

Giving tax concessions to business should come with proviso's, ie follow the Eire model.


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 13, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> This posturing about "we're considerably more anti-imperialist than you" would be funny if we weren't dealing with such a serious subject. I remember Respect trying to score points in the last election about how immediate the withdrawal should be. Unless you were calling for UK troops out in an instant "beam me up Scotty" sense, you were a sell out.
> 
> I await the next instalment of "Plaid to blame for Congolese rapists" with interest.



Niclas avoids answering a serious point.  Respect and the anti-imperialist wing of the anti-war movement stand for the removal of all foreign troops from Iraq, and an end to foreign intervention in Iraq - because the people who have brutalised Iraq cannot be part of the solution.  The withdrawal of British troops is not particularly science-fictional as Niclas claims - the Spanish government withdrew their troops in 6 weeks.  Compare this with the Italian government who support Plaid's option of a "phased withdrawal".  They are withdrawing their troops over a 12 month period from Iraq (to be sent to Afghanistan) and arranging for American/British troops to take-over their posts.

 Plaid (including "left wingers") have consistently argued that the UN should take over from Iraq, they have also argued for the replacement of coalition troops with Muslim troops/UN troops - I have already explained why this proposal is bullshit and would in effect prolong the agony of the Iraqi people, because UN involvement in Iraq would just be another face for Western interference and dominance of that country.

You can't be anti-imperialist and support the thieves kitchen that is the UN.
Plaid's UN option panders to the racist view that Iraqis are not capable of self-determination.

I have heard Adam Price MP speak on the war several times, what is notable is that he always only talks about the lies in the run-up to the war and has little to say about what to do now - this is a cop-out.

Plaid also wobbled over whether to oppose military intervention in Afghanistan too, though commendably they did, somewhat later than the Welsh Socialist Alliance, eventually come out against the war.  But were they absolutely opposed to military intervention - take a look at this interview with the leader of Plaid in the House of Commons on the eve of the Afghan War.  No analysis of the war within the context of the opening up of a huge swathe of resource-rich territory with the collapse of the USSR between the caspian sea and balkans, no mention of the Project for the New American Century, no mention of imperialism, instead the suggestion that maybe possible military intervention should be linked to a peace plan!!!???

Is this the voice of one of Plaid's anti-imperialists?



			
				Elfyn Llwyd said:
			
		

> I think if there is firm evidence about who perpetrated these crimes and groups can be pinpointed without any risk of killing innocent people, then I can fully understand the need to attack.
> 
> Any retaliation action would be carried out by the US and NATO.
> 
> ...


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## lewislewis (Oct 13, 2006)

That was the eve of the Afghan war...key point.

Um Udo where is Plaid consistently calling for UN or 'Muslim' troops to go in?

If somebody needs to preside over security in Iraq, it will have to be the Iraqis. However there will obviously be a humanitarian role for the UN to play.

I don't know what you're trying to achieve. Plaid Cymru opposed the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq and supported both anti-war movements. Plaid also opposed the first Gulf War.
What are you talking about when you suggest 'Muslim troops' or Plaid demanding an immediate UN invasion of Iraq?


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## lewislewis (Oct 13, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Plaid's UN option panders to the racist view that Iraqis are not capable of self-determination.



You are hilarious. Plaid Cymru is the party of Welsh self-determination...


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## nwnm (Oct 13, 2006)

not since it accepted the 'Wales in Europe' strategy. Wot get a Welsh parliament only to secede power to the European one?


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## Karac (Oct 13, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> not since it accepted the 'Wales in Europe' strategy. Wot get a Welsh parliament only to secede power to the European one?


At least they dont wear wigs and pledge allegiance to some outdated Saxon feudocracy.


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 14, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> At least they dont wear wigs and pledge allegiance to some outdated Saxon feudocracy.



No. But the EU are in the game of trying to force countries that are part of them to implement neo-liberal measures.  To join the Euro, you have to sign up to neo-liberal measures, the European Constitution similarly contained clauses which bound signatories to restructuring their economies on neo-liberal measures.  Anyway, for us socialist's capitalism is outdated too!

Where did Plaid stand on the Euro & the European Constitution?  It fully supports them.  

Across Europe, alliances of the trade union movement, socialists, communists, left wing members of social democrat parties etc. forced the defeat of the European Constitution.  In Wales, Plaid would be fighting against the left to support it!


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 14, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> That was the eve of the Afghan war...key point.
> 
> Um Udo where is Plaid consistently calling for UN or 'Muslim' troops to go in?
> 
> If somebody needs to preside over security in Iraq, it will have to be the Iraqis. However there will obviously be a humanitarian role for the UN to play.



Lewislewis, you must be aware that Plaid policy is for Coalition troops to be replaced with "peace-keepers", that is to say, the UN is not just to play a "humanitarian role" but also a "military role".  Plaid call for the troops to be pulled out and replaced with different troops!  This couldn't but be interpreted as evidence that they don't believe that Iraqis are capable of handling their own affairs.  In a sense, the head of the British army has come out to the left of Plaid because he argues that foreign troops exacerbate the security problem in Iraq rather than solve it, whereas Plaid argue that foreign troops (albeit from "neutral" countries are needed to oversee security)

 I have heard numerous Plaid members outline either the "muslim troop" option or the "neutral UN troops" if you just look up the archives of Western Mail/South Wales Echo you can find Jill Evans MEP, Leanne Wood AM, Bethan Jenkins, Adam Price MP (all considered to be on the left of the party) arguing this - it's no secret.  I also at an election hustings heard Plaid candidate, Neil McEvoy carefully distance himself from speakers from RESPECT and the Socialist Party who were arguing for an immediate and unconditional withdrawal of ALL foreign troops from Iraq & argued for a phased withdrawal with troops from Muslim countries sent in.

To be fair, Plaid's oposition to the war has been more principled and consistent than the LibDems, and socialists can work with Plaid members, but they can hardly be considered to be anti-imperialist.


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## nwnm (Oct 14, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> At least they dont wear wigs and pledge allegiance to some outdated Saxon feudocracy.


Thats why all bar one of Plaid's AM's were present inside the new Assembly building when Queenie came to open it then..... I don't know if any of them wear toupes though


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 14, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Thats why all bar one of Plaid's AM's were present inside the new Assembly building when Queenie came to open it then..... I don't know if any of them wear toupes though



Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid?  The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly.  There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.


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## rhys gethin (Oct 14, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid?  The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly.  There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.



And hardly any MPs either?   There are, obviously, all sorts of questions to be asked about 'compromising with the system' or being 'purist' in opposition - but it does seem to me that they are rather silly ones at the moment.   The questions is, what can WE do NOW?   Stop being self-righteous might be a start, in my view.


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## niclas (Oct 14, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid?  The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly.  There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.



The good Lord has been a semi-detached member of Plaid (and possibly the human race) for some years now... no, he's not one of the socialists in Plaid.

Which organisation are you referring to Udo, SWP or Respect?


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## lewislewis (Oct 15, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> No. But the EU are in the game of trying to force countries that are part of them to implement neo-liberal measures.  To join the Euro, you have to sign up to neo-liberal measures, the European Constitution similarly contained clauses which bound signatories to restructuring their economies on neo-liberal measures.  Anyway, for us socialist's capitalism is outdated too!
> 
> Where did Plaid stand on the Euro & the European Constitution?  It fully supports them.
> 
> Across Europe, alliances of the trade union movement, socialists, communists, left wing members of social democrat parties etc. forced the defeat of the European Constitution.  In Wales, Plaid would be fighting against the left to support it!



Euro workers legislation has been better than anything we've gotten from the UK though.

Plaid didn't 'fully support' the EU Constitution at all, their position was to have a referendum. And the single currency hasn't really come up in relation to Wales yet.


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## lewislewis (Oct 15, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid?  The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly.  There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.



Don't pretend you're all clean though, Galloway's lifestyle is questionable considering the politics he supports. I don't mind though, because he doesn't call himself a revolutionary socialist.


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## lewislewis (Oct 15, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Lewislewis, you must be aware that Plaid policy is for Coalition troops to be replaced with "peace-keepers", that is to say, the UN is not just to play a "humanitarian role" but also a "military role".  Plaid call for the troops to be pulled out and replaced with different troops!  This couldn't but be interpreted as evidence that they don't believe that Iraqis are capable of handling their own affairs.  In a sense, the head of the British army has come out to the left of Plaid because he argues that foreign troops exacerbate the security problem in Iraq rather than solve it, whereas Plaid argue that foreign troops (albeit from "neutral" countries are needed to oversee security)
> 
> I have heard numerous Plaid members outline either the "muslim troop" option or the "neutral UN troops" if you just look up the archives of Western Mail/South Wales Echo you can find Jill Evans MEP, Leanne Wood AM, Bethan Jenkins, Adam Price MP (all considered to be on the left of the party) arguing this - it's no secret.  I also at an election hustings heard Plaid candidate, Neil McEvoy carefully distance himself from speakers from RESPECT and the Socialist Party who were arguing for an immediate and unconditional withdrawal of ALL foreign troops from Iraq & argued for a phased withdrawal with troops from Muslim countries sent in.
> 
> To be fair, Plaid's oposition to the war has been more principled and consistent than the LibDems, and socialists can work with Plaid members, but they can hardly be considered to be anti-imperialist.



To deal with your final point, that is acknowledged, the reason you are so opposed to Plaid is because you worry we could soak up left support that you wish would instead go to your organisations, the SWp & Respect.

It is possible that UN troops would be needed but the actual Plaid policy is withdraw from Iraq.
Plaid members can argue for UN peacekeepers in that country if necessary, I don't think the UN peacekeeping record is as bad as not sending them in. It is likely that more powerful countries than us will decide this anyway, and I don't think a force under the banner of the UN (thus subject to international scrutiny) would be as irresponsible as forces of the Iraqi puppet government in things like guarding refugee camps, safeguarding humanitarian supplies etc. But we'll see how things the develop. The key issue should be to withdraw our troops, then if necessary I would argue that the war-making countries should pay reparations to Iraq.


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## neprimerimye (Oct 17, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with you.  Surely, you don't oppose Military Families against the War trying to get support in the courts for a public inquiry into the case for going to war?  I think that if Blair was impeached it would surely be a victory for the anti-war movement, but if we are brutally honest the campaign has been failure, there is no chance of Blair being impeached.  The supporters of the campaign could have used it as a good publicity stunt to publicise Blair's war crimes - in a similar manner to the Russell-Sartre International War Crimes Tribunal, but it looks like Adam Price MP was more locked into the game of trying to get support from other politicians rather than building mass public meeetings across the UK.
> 
> Niclas is a joker when he claims that Plaid are anti-imperialist.  They seriously wobbled over opposing the occupation of Iraq.  In the 2003 Assembly elections they took the safe option of "don't mention the war", because their had recently been a surge of support in the early weeks of the occupation.  This is quite typical of reformist parties who are prepared to sell out an occupied people if it will gain them votes.
> 
> ...



No I do not oppose the Military Families Campaign. But like the International War Crimes thingy it is irrelevant to mobilsing working people to oppose imperialist wars. As for the rest of your post I agree with it in broad outline but attacking a bourgeois party like Plaid is easy.


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## neprimerimye (Oct 17, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> The good Lord has been a semi-detached member of Plaid (and possibly the human race) for some years now... no, he's not one of the socialists in Plaid.



Would you please name the so-called socialists in Plaid? Do they hold right wing imperialist views similar to yours by any chance?


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## lewislewis (Oct 17, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Would you please name the so-called socialists in Plaid? Do they hold right wing imperialist views similar to yours by any chance?



I feel Wales' future can only be safeguarded by a full scale invasion of the Congo, the Police Constable of Llandrindod Wells leading the counter-revolutionary vanguard (Howard Marksist-Lennonist).


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