# PhD peeps- motivation and the like



## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

This post will probably be a wee bit all over the place (as are my thoughts and feelings on the whole thing) and i'm not even sure what I'm looking for.  Mutual support I guess... Maybe some advice

So I'm nearing the end of my second year and while the last 6 months have been filled with personal problems and too much time off because of them etc my supervisor reckons I'm in a really good position for this point in time.  I'd a meeting with him a few weeks back and a decent discussion about a few things.

He reckons I'm sorted regarding my background and introduction- says I really know my stuff and have done tons of reading.  Suppose I just need to get that written.  The focus of my work (three main threads) won't change between now and finishing so I suppose I should just get on with it and when I'm closer to submitting it can be edited depending on how much emphasis is placed on which strand(s) over others.

One experiemental chapter is more or less done, at least the most of it, ie I've synth'ed the compounds, tested them, got the results and there's just a few loose ends need tied up.  So I suppose that just needs written.

I'm more or less done with my synthesis, there's a few more things need made, but that's it (for now at least) and those compounds just need run through several bio-assays and the results analysed and the stats done to give me another chapter.

My third (and final, hopefully) experimental chapter is just getting underway- I've made the compounds, optimized the assays and just need to do the work and analyse the results etc.  Those results will lead onto some further work which will round off the chapter and my thesis (hopefully).

So it all sounds pretty positive right?  Apart from I just don't know wtf I'm supposed to do next!  I've tried working on one thing at a time but the nature of the work means I can't really spend 3 or 4 solid weeks on one thing without having hours of 'free' time each day, but yet I can't seem to juggle working on more than one strand of my work at the same time- I just seem to spend more time doing less work.

On top of that, a lot of the stuff that needs tied up/ finished off requires input from other labs or academics, sending off samples for analysis etc and that all takes bucket loads of time and means working to other people's timetables.

I started out with the grand idea of publishing 3 papers along the way but at the minute I've decided 'fuck that' and am concentrating on just getting my thesis done, the publications can come later.  

Like I've just sat and planned the next 3 weeks work (to a loose timetable), but I know I'll arrive in uni tomorrow and some piece of equipment will be broken, we'll have run out of something or other and it'll be on back order from the supplier or the person I need to see is on holiday/ whatever.  I seem to spend more time planning and re-planning rather than _doing. 
_Anyhoo, don't really know what I expect back from this thread- think I just needed to rant! Everyone else in the lab is in the same boat really so no one talks about stuff like this and none or my mates outside of uni get it at all, so I suppose this is just me getting stuff off my chest.

Thanks for letting me rant


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## Lo Siento. (Aug 19, 2012)

If your supervisor says you're where you should be, and you're organising your time and working consistently, there's not much more you can do than that really. Sounds like everything it going to plan, and I know plenty of PhD students would love to be in that situation.

Personally, I just finished my first year (more or less). I've written an intro and one chapter, both of which I rewriting for my upgrade interview. Really feel like my work-rate has dropped off lately, so I've got to get back on it...


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## butcher (Aug 19, 2012)

First, it does sound that you have done the bulk of the work, and are in a good position but you are right it is the loose ends which are the fuckers to tie up, and they can result in a lot of rushing and panic in year 3 unless you do manage to prioritise and sort out a plan soon.

Can you go and see your Supervisor and show them you timetable or draw up a possible timetable, after carefully explaining the problems? It is what they are paid for, in part anyway......

One thing I would do is get the external tests etc done asap, other people may not be as desperate to get the results as you and these things always take an age (and you are assuming there will be no problems with their results).

On the positive side, you are obviously a good way through your work, but even so you have the guts and brains to recognise you are going through a rough patch and have Obv decided to address it too.  That is really positive.

Papers can wait and will be easy once you have a coherent and complete set of results, and completed chapters can always be converted to papers.

Good luck, and keep plugging, but the main thing is keep talking to people, everyone goes through tough patches......


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

Everything hasn't really gone to plan though, stuff has just kinda fallen into place over the last 2 years and I'm now sitting with bits and pieces of various strands of research with a year to finish it ALL off.  I just feel like I've a million and one tiny things to do, all of which will turn out to take 10 times longer than they should (recent example- courier misplaced sample sent off for analysis, was the last few mg's of compound I had since I used most of it trying to do the analysis myself to save money, so had to resynth the compound for what'll be two figures in my thesis )

I haven't exactly been working consistently the last load of months due to aforementioned personal problems, but now they're sorted I'm ready to get back into the full swing of things.  It's like I just don't know where to start and I'm anxious that I'll just hit problems at every turn.  It's alright for my super to say I'm in a decent position but it's been a fair while since he's been in the lab and it isn't him that has to do the work!

Och, think I'm just having a freak out.  One of those - "13 months to finish lab work, write up and submit " kinda jobs.  I suppose I just need to get on with things, when there's equipment out of action instead of moaning and going for coffee/ sitting on facebook, do something else or start writing etc.  I've also my BIG list of everything that needs done to finish so I'll just steadily chip away at that and see where I am in 6 months.  

I like the freedom and it being up to me when to do what etc, but right now I'm just feeling like I need more structure


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

butcher said:


> First, it does sound that you have done the bulk of the work, and are in a good position but you are right it is the loose ends which are the fuckers to tie up, and they can result in a lot of rushing and panic in year 3 unless you do manage to prioritise and sort out a plan soon.
> 
> Can you go and see your Supervisor and show them you timetable or draw up a possible timetable, after carefully explaining the problems? It is what they are paid for, in part anyway......
> 
> ...


 
Good advice re: the external tests and stuff that needs done with other academics- its almost term time again so I suppose get that outta the way ASAP.  

The thing with timetables is they all seem all well and good and ages I was submitting a monthly one to my supervisor, the problem being almost the day after they were written they needed rewritten due to equipment failure, cell lines getting infected, lack of reagents/ expertise etc.  I think its that more than anything that has me feeling all over the place- I like timetables. 

Plan for now- get my intro written during 'free' time, ie while experiments are running etc and in the evenings/ weekends, same for my first experimental chapter.  I think having that on paper and 'finished' will be a huge boost.  Then just keep plugging away at the other stuff...


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

not enough hours in the day/ days in the week/ weeks in the month.  Hmmmm, I think I want some modafinil again .  Anyhoo, I'm off to do my washing, ironing, cleaning etc for the week so at least I've not that to worry about


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## butcher (Aug 19, 2012)

Don't forget to have the odd break too, a weekend away doing some walking or something healthy can make a huge difference, clearing the mind and allowing some perspective on problems.


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Kuso said:


> Everything hasn't really gone to plan though, stuff has just kinda fallen into place over the last 2 years and I'm now sitting with bits and pieces of various strands of research with a year to finish it ALL off. I just feel like I've a million and one tiny things to do, all of which will turn out to take 10 times longer than they should (recent example- courier misplaced sample sent off for analysis, was the last few mg's of compound I had since I used most of it trying to do the analysis myself to save money, so had to resynth the compound for what'll be two figures in my thesis )
> 
> I haven't exactly been working consistently the last load of months due to aforementioned personal problems, but now they're sorted I'm ready to get back into the full swing of things. It's like I just don't know where to start and I'm anxious that I'll just hit problems at every turn. It's alright for my super to say I'm in a decent position but it's been a fair while since he's been in the lab and it isn't him that has to do the work!
> 
> ...


 
There's always some kind of hiccup in second year. For what it's worth, you do sound in a good position, and from experience starting the write-up process at the same point as you are really helped me formulate plans for the later chapters.

Remember you're telling a story - the introduction sets the scene and the lit review helps flesh out the boundaries of the problem you're investigating. The reader (examiners) will be looking for answers to 'why this piece of research?' & 'what makes it new over the existing body of work?'. Answer those questions and your thesis will do well. Also do your referencing as you go along and if you've used third-party images from websites, papers etc make sure these are clearly indicated as such to avoid allegations of plagiarism. Also do these as you go along.

You do have plenty of time though, so try not to worry too much, but make sure you DO start writing.

Also, avoid using a single word file for the entire thesis. Either write it in separate chapters (one per file) or use Latex. And make at least two back-ups.

Good luck!


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Also, avoid using a single word file for the entire thesis. Either write it in separate chapters (one per file) or use Latex. And make at least two back-ups.
> 
> Good luck!



went to a training day on LaTex... not a hope I'll be using that!  Think I'd need another three years just to learn how to work it lol


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

Thanks btw people, think I was just having a freakout after having had time off for boomtown and just getting ready to go back to the lab tomorrow


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Kuso said:


> went to a training day on LaTex... not a hope I'll be using that! Think I'd need another three years just to learn how to work it lol


If you get an interface like MikTex it's pretty much like word, but doesn't crash.


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

I need some phd motivation  I have all my data and not the slightest bit of motivation to write the fucking thing


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> I need some phd motivation  I have all my data and not the slightest bit of motivation to write the fucking thing


Start writing it or I will nag you until you do, missus


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Start writing it or I will nag you until you do, missus


nag all you like, it's not got my supervisors anywhere


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> nag all you like, it's not got my supervisors anywhere


But you can't be Dr Aqua until you do, and it's soooooo cool being a Dr.

You know you want to.


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

my dad, brother, SIL and step dad are all Dr's, it's not that exciting


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> my dad, brother, SIL and step dad are all Dr's, it's not that exciting


It is you know 

Basically if you want any kind of career in academia, you have to write it up.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> my dad, brother, SIL and step dad are all Dr's, it's not that exciting


Oh, god, it's not exciting. I can't think of anything _less _exciting. Or more horrendous, awful, protracted, drawn out, pointless and painful.

e2a:


aqua said:


> I need some phd motivation  I have all my data and not the slightest bit of motivation to write the fucking thing


Yeah. I'm now nearing the end of writing the bugger for the third effing time.

That's where _my _enthusiasm went


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It is you know
> 
> Basically if you want any kind of career in academia, you have to write it up.


LOL I don't though  I'm doing this because I wanted a personal challenge, not because of my career  in fact, the chances are it'll never be useful to me ever


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> OYeah. I'm now nearing the end of writing the bugger for the third effing time.
> 
> That's where _my _enthusiasm went


 I am in danger of joining you in this


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> LOL I don't though  I'm doing this because I wanted a personal challenge, not because of my career  in fact, the chances are it'll never be useful to me ever


So now the challenge is writing it up.

I appreciate you have other things on your mind at the moment, but writing up for a few hours a week could be a refuge from that.

Saved my sanity when my then partner had an affair, left me for her and I lost a whole bunch of mutual friends.


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

bloody hell eq!

I know I just need to write it but it's got now so that I don't know where to start  I've been trying to start approaching the literature review as if it's 3/4 big essays just to break it down a bit, it kinda works, then I get bored again


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## mrs quoad (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> bloody hell eq!
> 
> I know I just need to write it but it's got now so that I don't know where to start  I've been trying to start approaching the literature review as if it's 3/4 big essays just to break it down a bit, it kinda works, then I get bored again


Yeah, tbh the massiveness of it all was a huge hurdle for me. I've only felt like I had a very reasonable chance of completion over the last month or so. And that was because I've slowly ground through putting together lots of fragments. Completing several FPSers & RPGs & buying 2 computers and an iPad "to make working more interesting" along the way.

Trial by gruelling flammable misery, ay!


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> bloody hell eq!
> 
> I know I just need to write it but it's got now so that I don't know where to start  I've been trying to start approaching the literature review as if it's 3/4 big essays just to break it down a bit, it kinda works, then I get bored again


Can you write 2-3 pages as an introduction, like a setting-the-scene piece? I found it more helpful to start there than with the lit review. You need to set the scene for the audience, lead them into the reading.

I found urban about a year later, it honestly saved my life and made me normal. I got a lot of help and support through everything including writing up.

Mrs q got my copy of Philips and Pug - How to get a PhD, so check a copy out of library if you don't have one already. It's really good.

As for him, well he married her. That was tough, but I survived. Rather her than me


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

I bought a kindle to help with reading 

it's just all too much atm  I can't even begin to work out where to start


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Both of you  - progress can be in lots of small steps added together or fewer bigger bits. It's all still progress.


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## aqua (Aug 19, 2012)

I have that book, and rowena murrays one too, neither write it for me though


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> I bought a kindle to help with reading
> 
> it's just all too much atm  I can't even begin to work out where to start


See above - start with laying out the scene for a reader.

Why this area?
What's been done up until now?
What gaps does this leave?


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

aqua said:


> I have that book, and rowena murrays one too, neither write it for me though


Until Microsoft bring out 'Microsoft PhD' nothing will!


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## mrs quoad (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Both of you  - progress can be in lots of small steps added together or fewer bigger bits. It's all still progress.


Yes! And im nearly done. 

Still, I can spend the best part of a morning performing "motivation rituals" before I get cracking. Gotta have the coffee. Need sparkling water. Just check Ubran. Then - if I was single - id work til 3am. Which used to be fine. But nowadays, I *have* to watch tv for 2hrs (Artichoke's rule, no work allowed), and artichoke (v reasonably) gets tetchy if I have more than one or two late nighters a week.


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

any hints on writing IN the lab?  it's a pretty noisy n distracting place with all the equipment, not to mention the other people.  Like I could trek over to the library, but all my papers etc are in a big filing cabinet beside my bench.  I suppose I could aim to write a small section of the intro each day and leave for the library with the papers n what not I'll need for this.  Come 4pm is when everyone tends to slack off and sit around chatting about last night's TV so I suppose hit the library then for a few hours.  Or just headphones in and be a rude fucker - "CAN'T YOU SEE I'M TRYING TO _WORK!???" _


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## mrs quoad (Aug 19, 2012)

Big, visible headphones.


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

DO NOT DISTURB across the back of my lab coat


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Don't write up in the lab - don't you have an office?


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Don't write up in the lab - don't you have an office?


 
no, we have our 'wet work' bench in the lab then there's a row of writing up space at the back where my filing cabinet, notes etc sit

there is a post-doc office, that's currently used by the third years just finishing up round about now (since we don't actually have any post docs in our lab, don't get me started on that), that I may be able to make some use of come next month or so once *I'm *a third year, but that depends on whether funding arrives for post docs etc.

there's fairly decent facilities in the main library and biomedical library for peaceful writing, as well as the PG centre but none are close by to the lab and its a pain in the ass going back n forward with books/ papers/ notes/ lappy etc


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Kuso said:


> no, we have our 'wet work' bench in the lab then there's a row of writing up space at the back where my filing cabinet etc sits


I did most of my writing up at home - the uni unix network was way too slow to run the simulations most of the time anyway so I worked off my laptop. It was better once I was moved to the writing up space in a different building, officemate was hardly around, but I preferred working at home.

My supervisor thought I was being lazy until he saw my third chapter - at 90 pages it was longer than many maths theses are from cover to cover.


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## Kuso (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I did most of my writing up at home - the uni unix network was way too slow to run the simulations most of the time anyway so I worked off my laptop. It was better once I was moved to the writing up space in a different building, officemate was hardly around, but I preferred working at home.
> 
> My supervisor thought I was being lazy until he saw my third chapter - at 90 pages it was longer than many maths theses are from cover to cover.



see, I'd prefer to get all my practical work done, then just transplant everything into my office in the flat and write it up in one go (rented a 2 bed thinking I'd make use of one room as a proper office) but it's just not feasible.  it's getting to the point now that when I've spent morning setting up an experiment and its running for the afternoon I need to make the most of that time and get some writing done (instead of pissing about) but its hard to do in the lab and by the time I headed to the library/ PG centre and settled I'd get an hours work done and it'd be time to come back.  I think headphones playing some instrumental hip hop or summit and just telling people 'here, I'm actually writing for a change, not looking at trainers, can I have some peace?' is all I can do.  it's not like what I need to write at this point needs to be the final polished article- that can come later, at home or at the library or whatever


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## aqua (Aug 20, 2012)

I just need someone to read for me


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## mrs quoad (Aug 23, 2012)

Good "you're nearly done!" supervision yesterday -> fucking around all day today.


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## extra dry (Aug 23, 2012)

Thinking of heading back to uni to do an Education PhD any thoughts of a good uni/country to do it in?..

to people who are writers have you thought of finding a https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/376492_10151027837856897_1062641066_n.jpg empty room in the building and write there or is that impossible? or this from Asia if the link works


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## Zorra (Aug 24, 2012)

Just put in my application to start my PhD next year, so expect to see me on here whinging


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## mrs quoad (Aug 24, 2012)

Man. I was up til 03:30 working on a job application (deadline today, and I've got a supervision at midday), Artichoke woke me at 5 o'effing clock to tell me she'd dreamt we owned a ferret, and now she's going on a bonkers cleaning mission, triple scrubbing everything around me whilst I work. Because a friend is doing an all-over body epilation in her office in preparation for a Muslim wedding, and she can't quite get down to work yet this morning.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## tar1984 (Aug 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Man. I was up til 03:30 working on a job application (deadline today, and I've got a supervision at midday), Artichoke woke me at 5 o'effing clock to tell me she'd dreamt we owned a ferret, and now she's going on a bonkers cleaning mission, triple scrubbing everything around me whilst I work. Because a friend is doing an all-over body epilation in her office in preparation for a Muslim wedding, and she can't quite get down to work yet this morning.
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


 
You know what would solve your problems?

You should get a ferret.


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## Lo Siento. (Aug 24, 2012)

Just about finished said introductory chapter, although I'm not sure what word length I should be aiming for. It'll probably end up about 18,000 at this rate... I'm shit at academic politics apparently, as all the historiographical analysis praises dead people and mainly attacks the main living author in the field, who happens to be the Head of History at Cambridge


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## mrs quoad (Aug 24, 2012)

Jesus bloody wept, the best part of 9 days working on a job application (deadline today) and the applications page timed out, giving me the message 'unfortunately, submissions for this post have closed..'

Bastard, shitty time-out message! I thought I was grade-A fucked for a minute, and literally shaking with 'AAAAAAA'.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 24, 2012)

tar1984 said:


> You know what would solve your problems?
> 
> You should get a ferret.


Artichoke clarified this morning, btw.

"We found a ferret, and it liked you, and you fed it."

Thanks for that, dude. You must wake me up at 5am more often!


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## Kuso (Aug 24, 2012)

Seem to have worked my ass off all week and have no more results to show for it...   though at least I do have what looks like healthy cells again for testing next week.  Really must put on this other reaction before I go home... it takes 48 hours so makes so much sense to do it now and pick it up on Monday, but I just. can't. be. arsed.


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## stuff_it (Aug 24, 2012)

Kuso said:


> see, I'd prefer to get all my practical work done, then just transplant everything into my office in the flat and write it up in one go (rented a 2 bed thinking I'd make use of one room as a proper office) but it's just not feasible. it's getting to the point now that when I've spent morning setting up an experiment and its running for the afternoon I need to make the most of that time and get some writing done (instead of pissing about) but its hard to do in the lab and by the time I headed to the library/ PG centre and settled I'd get an hours work done and it'd be time to come back. I think headphones playing some instrumental hip hop or summit and just telling people 'here, I'm actually writing for a change, not looking at trainers, can I have some peace?' is all I can do. it's not like what I need to write at this point needs to be the final polished article- that can come later, at home or at the library or whatever


You'd have thought the high energy physics department would have solved this by now - go tell them off.


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## Lo Siento. (Aug 24, 2012)

Just finished first draft of that intro, 17,000 words, but still want to work a couple more theorists into it...

I think it's a good, logical argument but maybe I need to make it dovetail toward the conclusion a bit. Anyway, finished, work Target for the week hit (22.5 hours), so just for once I get a proper thesis guilt free weekend


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## Macabre (Aug 25, 2012)

I take it you're doing synthetic chemistry from your wording.  Snap, I'm writing up my synth chem PhD too.  You really need to allocate an hour each morning to just write, any later and you'll just put it off.  You'll know your time table for when us best to do it but from the sounds of your lab you should go to the library first thing before you go there.


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## Kuso (Aug 26, 2012)

Macabre said:


> I take it you're doing synthetic chemistry from your wording. Snap, I'm writing up my synth chem PhD too. You really need to allocate an hour each morning to just write, any later and you'll just put it off. You'll know your time table for when us best to do it but from the sounds of your lab you should go to the library first thing before you go there.



sorta- "design, synthesis and biological evaluation of inhibitors of enzymes of pharmaceutical importance"... so a bit of molecular modelling, some small molecule synthesis, peptide synthesis, conjugating some small molecules to peptides then the bio assays on the compounds I've made- (relatively) straightforward fluorometric assays and tissue culture work.

See tbh, I actually hadn't even considered writing in the morning.  Suppose it's cuz I'm not really a 'morning person', plus the things I do when I arrive in the lab are clear out the hood(s) I was using the day before for whoever needs them that day and clear up in tissue culture- binning stuff that's been Virkoned overnight etc, so that really needs done first thing so its all clear/ ready for the next user or next thing I have to do.  I'm giving serious consideration to starting earlier, like 7.30 maybe.  would give me time to write for an hour or so, then do all the housekeeping stuff I have to do


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## tbtommyb (Aug 28, 2012)

Kuso said:


> any hints on writing IN the lab? it's a pretty noisy n distracting place with all the equipment, not to mention the other people. Like I could trek over to the library, but all my papers etc are in a big filing cabinet beside my bench. I suppose I could aim to write a small section of the intro each day and leave for the library with the papers n what not I'll need for this. Come 4pm is when everyone tends to slack off and sit around chatting about last night's TV so I suppose hit the library then for a few hours. Or just headphones in and be a rude fucker - "CAN'T YOU SEE I'M TRYING TO _WORK!???" _


 
This might be a bit irrelevant now, but there's a great program called Scrivener. It basically helps you file all your notes and documents etc together in one thing and then you can write in chunks and compile them all together into one big document. I barely know how to use all its features but when you're writing something big it's far easier than having loads of folders and Word documents and constantly chopping between shit. If you can write maybe 1000 words on each sub topic, almost off the top of your head, you can go back after and flesh it out and reference etc. Really helps to have a framework already laid out.


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## stereoisomer (Sep 1, 2012)

Hi people who are doing Organic Synthesis PhDs
I'm about to go into 4th year of my Masters and I'm about 95% certain I want to do a PhD after this. Any tips you can give me? What unis do you go to, who do you work for? Are they a good supervisor? Many thanks.


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## nino_savatte (Sep 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Don't write up in the lab - don't you have an office?


 
Office? Wow, I'd love an office.

My uni has a PG workroom, which is fine but an office would be better!


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## mrs quoad (Sep 1, 2012)

stereoisomer said:


> Hi people who are doing Organic Synthesis PhDs
> I'm about to go into 4th year of my Masters and I'm about 95% certain I want to do a PhD after this. Any tips you can give me? What unis do you go to, who do you work for? Are they a good supervisor? Many thanks.


Is that a 4-year Masters following an entirely separate 3-year undergraduate degree?

Or a straight conversion (i.e. school -> Bachelors-which-is-converted-to-Masters-in-the-fourth-year-of-study -> PhD)?

Because a total of 10 years of postgrad study (4yrs masters plus >3yrs PhD) would *properly* do my chuffing box in


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## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2012)

stereoisomer said:


> Hi people who are doing Organic Synthesis PhDs
> I'm about to go into 4th year of my Masters and I'm about 95% certain I want to do a PhD after this. Any tips you can give me? What unis do you go to, who do you work for? Are they a good supervisor? Many thanks.


Why do you want to do a PhD? Do you want academic career?


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## nino_savatte (Sep 2, 2012)

So I get the feeling that I'm the only humanities & social sciences PhD student on here. Is that right?


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## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> So I get the feeling that I'm the only humanities & social sciences PhD student on here. Is that right?


+1

Though I'd reject the 'humanities' bit. That's Artichoke's domain.

e2a: also, as of about 5 mins ago, I actually reckon I've pretty much finished. Or am inordinately close. Footnotes and bobbleography aside.

e2a2: isn't Toggle history?


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## nino_savatte (Sep 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> +1
> 
> Though I'd reject the 'humanities' bit. That's Artichoke's domain.
> 
> ...


Ah, ok.

I wasn't aware Toggle was doing a PhD.

Will any of us have jobs in academia to go to once we've finished? It's not looking good.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> So I get the feeling that I'm the only humanities & social sciences PhD student on here. Is that right?


I'm a history phd.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Will any of us have jobs in academia to go to once we've finished? It's not looking good.


Isn't it?

I hadn't really looked around, tbh 

e2a: though criminology doesn't seem to be suffering too much of a shortfall. If I'd got my arse into gear, there've been a fair few relevant posts up for grabs over the last 3ish months. And I'm looking at a functional research fellowship which I'd be pretty gutted not to get and / or a postdoc (likewise, tbh) in the next couple of months.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Isn't it?
> 
> I hadn't really looked around, tbh


Cuts, cuts, cuts.  My uni isn't offering teaching work to PhD s/s this year. It's quite depressing really.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Cuts, cuts, cuts. My uni isn't offering teaching work to PhD s/s this year. It's quite depressing really.


Yeah, tbh my Institute's graduate only, so the teaching side of things hasn't been that deficient. I've got in a bit of Masters teaching (think I'm the only PhD to've done that), but it's never been a part of Institutional life so... erm. Yeah. Isn't a sudden cut, so to speak.

It's the move-on posts I'm interested in.

And the British Academy's got - what? - 50 funded postdoc places coming out in the immediate.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Ah, ok.
> 
> I wasn't aware Toggle was doing a PhD.
> 
> Will any of us have jobs in academia to go to once we've finished? It's not looking good.


The head of our gradschool seems confident it'll pick up in a couple of years. But his comment on my thesis (on industrial militancy in the 70s) was that he didn't really understand why any worker would have such a conflictual attitude toward their boss like that, so maybe his labour market expectations are rather naive


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

I think Essex and Sussex've both opened (or are both opening) new criminology centres atm, too.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Yeah, tbh my Institute's graduate only, so the teaching side of things hasn't been that deficient. I've got in a bit of Masters teaching (think I'm the only PhD to've done that), but it's never been a part of Institutional life so... erm. Yeah. Isn't a sudden cut, so to speak.
> 
> It's the move-on posts I'm interested in.
> 
> And the British Academy's got - what? - 50 funded postdoc places coming out in the immediate.


 
Perhaps it varies from uni to uni. I'm at a post-1992 uni, so we're being hit particularly hard.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

Lo Siento. said:


> The head of our gradschool seems confident it'll pick up in a couple of years. But his comment on my thesis (on industrial militancy in the 70s) was that he didn't really understand why any worker would have such a conflictual attitude toward their boss like that, so maybe his labour market expectations are rather naive


Oh, come to criminology.

*Everyone* understands that workers hate their bosses  Begin with police and prisons, and move on from that


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Perhaps it varies from uni to uni. I'm at a post-1992 uni, so we're being hit particularly hard.


Ahhh, tbf I'm currently at a pre-1400 uni which does tend to foster a bit of a bubble mentality.

Though - again - Essex and Sussex are both expanding (IMU).

tbf, I think criminology tends to do alright in a recession. Crime is one of those industries that kinda thrives.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 6, 2012)

Lo Siento. said:


> The head of our gradschool seems confident it'll pick up in a couple of years. But his comment on my thesis (on industrial militancy in the 70s) was that he didn't really understand why any worker would have such a conflictual attitude toward their boss like that, so maybe his labour market expectations are rather naive


 
It sounds like the head of your grad school hasn't managed to wrap his head around the social history of this country.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> tbf, I think criminology tends to do alright in a recession. Crime is one of those industries that kinda thrives.


 
That goes without saying.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> That goes without saying.


It's probably helped that the rozzers've upped their recruitment criteria, too. When I was at Huddersfield (which - IIRC - was 120th in the overall league tables the year I graduated ) something like 15 of the 18 crim students were intending to go pretty much straight into the police.

Bit of a contrast from social work (which I failed) where... erm... 7 of the 64 were dealers 

Criminology's gaining a bit more of a 'vocational' angle, afaict. Prospective rozzers, and the rest who just want to be Cracker


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

*sigh*

I'm just about to print out 300 pages of thesis. Again.

This time, I'm going to proof it *and* go through and highlight every single quotation in fluorescent marker, to ensure my bibliography's complete.

*sigh*


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Oh, come to criminology.
> 
> *Everyone* understands that workers hate their bosses  Begin with police and prisons, and move on from that


 
Historians spend their lives hoping no-one calls them a structuralist, so they don't like that sort of thing!


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 6, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> It sounds like the head of your grad school hasn't managed to wrap his head around the social history of this country.


Or indeed any country. Class conflict not his subject area


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Sep 6, 2012)

Lo Siento. said:


> The head of our gradschool seems confident it'll pick up in a couple of years. But his comment on my thesis (on industrial militancy in the 70s) was that he didn't really understand why any worker would have such a conflictual attitude toward their boss like that, so maybe his labour market expectations are rather naive


 
He hasn't realised that it takes two to tango. Look at the example of Michael Edwardes management style at British Leyland - you probably already did.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm a lit Phd.

I also rate Scrivener.

Also, this: http://thesiswhisperer.com/2011/03/24/how-to-write-1000-words-a-day-and-not-go-bat-shit-crazy/


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 6, 2012)

Further to that ^ I remember some author or another writing a column in the Guardian, and she was talking about how important it is to just get the words down, even if they are really, really, really shitty words. Because you can't edit something that doesn't exist.

Pretty good advice.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Further to that ^ I remember some author or another writing a column in the Guardian, and she was talking about how important it is to just get the words down, even if they are really, really, really shitty words. Because you can't edit something that doesn't exist.
> 
> Pretty good advice.


It's thanks to that sort of advice that I've ended up re-writing my effing thesis three effing times


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 6, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> He hasn't realised that it takes two to tango. Look at the example of Michael Edwardes management style at British Leyland - you probably already did.


I'm actually sort of trying to take a different tack. Histories of British trade unionism are generally written by liberal sympathisers which generally end up writing fairly top-down histories which emphasise the shortcomings of management and the reasonableness of the unions as institutions. My interest is more in exploring the rising levels of shop-floor organisation and industrial assertiveness as an expression of workers' own agency and particular workplace cultures.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> It's thanks to that sort of advice that I've ended up re-writing my effing thesis three effing times


yeah, writing is a good idea, but not just for the sake of it like.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 7, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Ahhh, tbf I'm currently at a pre-1400 uni which does tend to foster a bit of a bubble mentality.
> 
> Though - again - Essex and Sussex are both expanding (IMU).
> 
> tbf, I think criminology tends to do alright in a recession. Crime is one of those industries that kinda thrives.


Pre-1400? Not Oxford by any chance?


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm a cultural studies PhD (the EDL would accuse me of being a 'cultural Marxist' ).

My first journal article is due for publication in the new year.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 7, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Pre-1400? Not Oxford by any chance?


Nah.

The ones that ran away from Oxford


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 7, 2012)

RIGHT.

I've got 301 of 304 bibliographic references tracked down, listed, and sorted.

I'm not sure whether to wipe the remaining three from the main body of the text, or to leave them in there to see if anyone finds 'em


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 7, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> RIGHT.
> 
> I've got 301 of 304 bibliographic references tracked down, listed, and sorted.
> 
> I'm not sure whether to wipe the remaining three from the main body of the text, or to leave them in there to see if anyone finds 'em


Leave them as a test for the examiners


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Leave them as a test for the examiners


There's also the subset that have a margin of error of +/- some % on the date of publication I've written in the text 

I need to clear those up!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 7, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> There's also the subset that have a margin of error of +/- some % on the date of publication I've written in the text
> 
> I need to clear those up!


You can do it! 

How many back-ups do you have of the file? Can't be too careful!


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You can do it!
> 
> How many back-ups do you have of the file? Can't be too careful!


If it crashed now, I'd just find someone local, and give them a hard copy to transcribe


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 10, 2012)

*final* pre-submission supervision this afternoon.

Half of my supervisors've just emailed with some comments 'on your magnificent text.'

Thank fuck for that! He hadn't seen a fair bit of it previously (or'd only seen very drafty versions), so the word 'magnificent' will do as a promising start!


----------



## aqua (Sep 10, 2012)

I've lost my mojo again


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 10, 2012)

aqua said:


> I've lost my mojo again


Oh, dude  Truly sorry to hear it.

There've been more times than I'd care to mention when I just haven't thought that finishing my effing thesis would ever happen / be remotely feasible. It's so damned easy to get lost in the things.


----------



## aqua (Sep 10, 2012)

Dad's taken a really bad slide in his illness and I'm wiped out. I do know now more than I need to about pregabalin and lorazepam though  not that that is in any way useful to my writing up


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 10, 2012)

Truly sorry to hear it, aqua... IMO the 'personal' face of doing a PhD makes it that much harder to separate out from other personal problems / life difficulties. Like, if I was having a shit time at home, if I had a 9-5 job I could go in there, be told what to do, and come away at the end of the day.

Whereas with a PhD... it's all so eminently *negotiable*. Should I be doing *this* personal thing, or the other one I'm *meant* to be studying for? The one with no concrete goals beyond a vague and distant 'completion' date one, two, three years' from now...

Bleh.


----------



## aqua (Sep 10, 2012)

Bleh sums it all up nicely tbh


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 10, 2012)

aqua said:


> Dad's taken a really bad slide in his illness and I'm wiped out. I do know now more than I need to about pregabalin and lorazepam though  not that that is in any way useful to my writing up


Pregabalin is a really good drug. It might take a couple of weeks to ramp up to the dose that's best for your Dad, but you should see an improvement in him, which will hopefully comfort you a little.

Even reading on paper or writing a paragraph each day will help you make some progress on your PhD. Your mojo will come back, promise.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 11, 2012)

Well, today started quite enthusiastically, doing *yet another* proofing of my 290 page thesis.

Only at about 1 o'clock, I got a bit bored of listening to Bach and put on a bit of passably enthusiastic trance / hard house. And've spent a respectable proportion of the time since then dancing around my office, naked.

(Who gets dressed when they're working at home, anyway?)

e2a: appropriately enough, I'm proofing the section on mental disorder at the moment


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 11, 2012)

I've just been through my thesis, and (on my supervisor's suggestion) removed all 18 'tremendous'es


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 11, 2012)

Oop! Just had through my 3rd failed job application.

And counting 

Got a bit more optimism about two postdoc-type posts coming up, mind


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 11, 2012)

And have just emailed someone to ask if they / their department'll support a postdoc.

I'm now mostly left with typing in corrections, afaict. And adding in 2 paras to the start, and one sentence in the middle.

I've got:

1) my own
2) Artichoke's
3) my dad's
4) Supervisor 1's
5) Supervisor 2's

corrections to work through. That's 5x290 pages of corrections, from 5 different people. And most of them are working off a draft that's two weeks old  And I'll bet half of them have picked up on the same mistakes


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 12, 2012)

Apparently having a category of interagency work described as 'satisfied ignorance' is not appropriate, unless I want to build a *formal* taxonomy.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 12, 2012)

How to fuck up anonymisation.

1. have an IRL person called, say, 'Ermintrude.'

2. have a core author / reference called, say, 'Ermintrude.'

3. Decide - in a moment of unreflective genius - to use 'Ermintrude' as someone's pseudonym, given it's such a common name.

Think I've just autocorrected a tonne of Ermintrudes I shouldn't've done


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 12, 2012)

4 paragraphs to write (2 opening, 2 reflective).

1,000 spare words with which to do it.

Then just going through 3 sets of corrections, removing a few page breaks, putting in footnote page numbers, adding preliminary pages... and then done  Hopefully.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 12, 2012)

WHY THE FUCK does anyone do a PhD, though? Seriously? Good grief.

This fucker's going on restricted access, too, so *all* of this - atm - is for two markers and 3 letters.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 13, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> 4 2 paragraphs to write (2 opening, 2 reflective).
> 
> 1,000 600 spare words with which to do it.
> 
> Then just going through 3 sets of corrections, removing a few page breaks, putting in footnote page numbers, adding preliminary pages... and then done  Hopefully.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 14, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> 4 paragraphs to write (2 opening, 2 reflective).
> 
> 1,000 spare words with which to do it.
> 
> Then just going through 3 sets of corrections, removing a few page breaks, putting in footnote page numbers, adding preliminary pages... and then done  Hopefully.


 
Currently going through my entire thesis, sorting out Home Office references. I've got about 200 of the buggers, and have no consistent 2004a, 2004b, 2005a, 2005g etc reference system


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 14, 2012)

Printing out *one final time* on shit paper, just to look for dodgy bits


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

You're doing great, when's submission?


----------



## articul8 (Sep 16, 2012)

Sounds like you're much more organised than I was - worked through the night before deadline and was still writing conclusion and sorting out bibliography - got passed no corrections


----------



## aqua (Sep 16, 2012)

I hate you quoady


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You're doing great, when's submission?


Tomorrow, I think. Or, at least, I've printed everything off *and bought £30 of coloured printer cartridges for my 7 tables and charts* and'm waiting on feedback from my final supervisor. The other one's said 'submit it,' and tbh I'm not sure how fussed I am by incoming comments now.

ALSO.

I was told at this year's British Criminological Society's conference that someone'd just published a book on the agency I'm looking at. Like, I was previously the only person looking at this. The bastards'd done 3x the no of interviews AND printed a book.

I Kindled it two hrs ago (after speaking to him earlier this week about the possibility of a postdoc), having previously avoided it bc I was too far gone for substantial rewrites.

Turns out, IMO, he's stopped short with a shallow analysis of macro issues  Supports a couple of things I say, but *completely* misses out on the messy dynamics of frontline work, and (IMO) some of the really interesting tensions in the org.

He's taken nothing from my original contribution, and given me something cracking to critique


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 16, 2012)

aqua said:


> I hate you quoady


Sorry, aqua... Until pretty much 6 weeks ago, I wasn't sure I'd get here, either.

Good luck, ay!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

aqua said:


> I hate you quoady


You will get there too aqua - even if right now isn't the best time to do your writing, it doesn't mean you'll never get there.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Sounds like you're much more organised than I was - worked through the night before deadline and was still writing conclusion and sorting out bibliography - got passed no corrections


No way!!!!!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 16, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Tomorrow, I think. Or, at least, I've printed everything off *and bought £30 of coloured printer cartridges for my 7 tables and charts* and'm waiting on feedback from my final supervisor. The other one's said 'submit it,' and tbh I'm not sure how fussed I am by incoming comments now.
> 
> ALSO.
> 
> ...


 
I don't blame you for not wanting to read it.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> No way!!!!!


 
yes, but I don't recommend AT ALL the way I did it.  Basically wrote 80,000 in the last month after 4 years reseach.  How not to do it


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 16, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't blame you for not wanting to read it.


That WAS part of it.

The other part was that, no matter how interesting-but-relevant it was, by the time I heard of it I'd already written pretty much everything substantive.

Even if it only added a few chips here and there - as, tbf, it does - that might've necessitated substantial re-writing when what I *really* needed to do was get the fucker done. That I'm done with, erm, 2ish weeks to spare over 4yrs kinda indicates how much of a problem additional re-writes might've been 

Now I know where he / they've gone, it does provide a useful intro for my first article, mind  "Here's what they said AND HERE'S HOW LIMITED IT IS."

I'll be applying to him for a postdoc, though, so probably none too sharp an idea to push that line too strongly


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Sounds like you're much more organised than I was - worked through the night before deadline and was still writing conclusion and sorting out bibliography - got passed no corrections


I, basically, wrote my findings section out in 3 main field reports.

I then re-wrote them, upon realising that there was no sane way of presenting them that didn't involve thematic chapters. Alongside a theoretical framework that I thought was pretty solid.

I then had my first supervision for a year (one supervisor retired during my 3rd year; the other one disappeared from a research project on which I was the research assistant, massively increasing my workload on it, and then went AWOL, and then took some time off sick.)

At which my supervisors kinda said 'erm, this is a bit shit.'

So I ended up writing it a third time.

You can call that 'more organised' if you want, I'm not convinced it was


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm printed. I'm happy with what I've got. I just want to get rid of the effing thing.

But one of my supervisors was at a conference over the back end of last week, and is now ill. And is, perhaps understandably, saying 'please don't submit until I've read it! But I can't read it at the moment.'

Thing is, I've addressed all her major concerns. Nothing too great has changed. If there isn't anything too catastrophic with it, then tbh I don't give a fuck.

AaaAAA.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 17, 2012)

I think part of the reasons I'm frustrated is that - IME - this supervisor works herself into the ground, and basically becomes ill through stress and lack of self-care, as a result of which (IME) she becomes both unpredictable and unreliable wrt the work I've submitted. It's part of the reason I had no supervisions for a year and fucked one of my thesis write-ups, and ended up taking on a very large amount of work (probably 80-90% of the total workload) for a project on which I was 'research assistant,' and originally expecting to basically help with some interviews, light analysis and writing. And which no publications came out of, perhaps unsurprisingly.

I feel as if there's a bit of a self-damaging loop going on there (work self into ground, become even more pressured because too sick to work and / or struggle to engage with the work I do see), but what *really* frustrates me is that she knows full well that it's going on. But is still taking on new, hard-arse responsibilities. And is, clearly, racked with guilt about the work she can't do.

I hate it. There's no way of questioning it without receiving - IME - a kinda plaintive / guilt-laden / unproductive response. "Please leave me alone, I will get round to it" even when I've said (as I have done several times in the past) "please don't worry about it, just let me get on with it."

Like, it's exactly that that led me to doing fuck all on the big project for the best part of 4 months, whilst I had nothing better to do ("please leave me alone, I'm doing it.") Followed by a couple of hideous bursts of nightmare round-the-clock work because she hadn't done anything at all, and we ran into (and over) hideous deadlines that I felt personally responsible for meeting. And by *that* time I damned well needed to be getting on with my own work, whilst all the time she'd been saying "I'll do it" I was effectively unemployed - just waiting for research access.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 17, 2012)

Well, after a couple of months going awol I finally contacted my supervisor today. My PhD experience to date has consisted of a fairly promising start, a bit of a breakdown, a 9 month leave of absence, a change of topic, a fairly promising second start, another bit of a breakdown but more low-key this time, and a tentative revelation.

It feels good to have the "I'm sorry that I'm really fucking shit, my head is a fucking mess at the best of times, let's just do this whole thing slowly, yes?" talk.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 18, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> It feels good to have the "I'm sorry that I'm really fucking shit, my head is a fucking mess at the best of times, let's just do this whole thing slowly, yes?" talk.


I wish my supervisor would've gotten around to having that chat with me, at some point 

Just waiting to hear back with an 'ok, submit' now. A foot-high stack of theses and signed forms parked on our dining table. Pfffffft.

Slightly worried that I haven't heard back from her yet today, as usually when she's working she'll email between 3 and 5am. The lack of an early email might indicate bugger all's happening on that front again.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 18, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't blame you for not wanting to read it.


btw, how can the x axis continue beyond 'they already wrote your thesis'?

How can something be more relevant to your thesis, than your thesis?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I wish my supervisor would've gotten around to having that chat with me, at some point
> 
> Just waiting to hear back with an 'ok, submit' now. A foot-high stack of theses and signed forms parked on our dining table. Pfffffft.
> 
> Slightly worried that I haven't heard back from her yet today, as usually when she's working she'll email between 3 and 5am. The lack of an early email might indicate bugger all's happening on that front again.


Are you up against submission deadlines e.g, to ensure you graduate next summer for example? If not then I guess you can wait a little while, but ultimately it's your thesis and you decide when it gets submitted.

Also, if she has a habit of working like this is sounds as if she's going to be off for some time - are you prepared to wait for her to get better and then read it etc.

I would give her until the start of next week and then submit it. Chances are she won't have anything substantive to add anyway.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 18, 2012)

I sent my supervisor this earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome.

They really need to give courses in how to deal with it.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I sent my supervisor this earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome.
> 
> They really need to give courses in how to deal with it.


Now that's interesting. I was saying to one of my colleagues recently that I didn't feel very successful (despite my PhD in mathematics). 

Thanks Vintage Paw


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 18, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Are you up against submission deadlines e.g, to ensure you graduate next summer for example?


 
More being able to say on job applications that I've submitted. And being able to *actually* get on with writing articles, etc, without a foot of paper sitting next to me, glaring!

HOWEVER, she replied this morning, I got it soft bound at 2pm, and submitted just before 4 



> Also, if she has a habit of working like this is sounds as if she's going to be off for some time - are you prepared to wait for her to get better and then read it etc.


Turned out to be dodgy fish this time 

It is a *very* repeating pattern, though.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 18, 2012)

No problem. It's ridiculously common, ime.

I only heard it had a name, and was a real 'thing' a couple of weeks ago, but for years I've been describing myself as a 'fraud,' wondering how long it'll be before everyone at uni works out that I've only managed to get this far through complete luck, and that really I have no fucking clue what I'm doing. It really doesn't matter how many good marks I've gotten, it must just be because I can write well, and not because of my ideas. And all the praise my tutors/supervisor have given me? It's just their way of trying to buoy me up, it's not genuine.

Thing is, despite knowing it's a 'thing' and knowing so many other people feel the same, I still believe I'm the exception, and that it really _is_ just luck for me. Stupid.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> More being able to say on job applications that I've submitted. And being able to *actually* get on with writing articles, etc, without a foot of paper sitting next to me, glaring!
> 
> HOWEVER, she replied this morning, I got it soft bound at 2pm, and submitted just before 4
> 
> ...


HURRAH!!!!!!!

Congratulations on submitting


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 20, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't blame you for not wanting to read it.


I've just twigged that the book that someone has published focuses *only* on coercive teams, basing their theoretical framework entirely on that coercion.

Something like half the teams in the uk aren't coercive  Nor is most of any team's work


----------



## stereoisomer (Sep 20, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Why do you want to do a PhD? Do you want academic career?


 
Because I love science, and maybe.


----------



## aqua (Sep 20, 2012)

I had a really good off the record (because I'm on a LOA atm) meeting with my supervisor today and feel back on track. She thinks I have everything I need, and have probably read everything I need to too. So we have a nice plan of action now


----------



## stereoisomer (Sep 20, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Is that a 4-year Masters following an entirely separate 3-year undergraduate degree?
> 
> Or a straight conversion (i.e. school -> Bachelors-which-is-converted-to-Masters-in-the-fourth-year-of-study -> PhD)?
> 
> Because a total of 10 years of postgrad study (4yrs masters plus >3yrs PhD) would *properly* do my chuffing box in


 
Ummm I go to Uni for 4 years and come out with a Masters. So I guess the second one. I didn't go straight from school though, I'm 29. Stuff happened, life got in the way


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 26, 2012)

Hey, there's nothing wrong with insanely long amounts of time at university. I'm making a lifetime of it, and it's working out okay so far


----------



## Meltingpot (Sep 27, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'm a lit Phd.
> 
> I also rate Scrivener.
> 
> Also, this: http://thesiswhisperer.com/2011/03/24/how-to-write-1000-words-a-day-and-not-go-bat-shit-crazy/


 
This is a really good essay, maybe it should be stickied here?


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 27, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Hey, there's nothing wrong with insanely long amounts of time at university. I'm making a lifetime of it, and it's working out okay so far


Chap in my institute's just entering (I think) either year 8 or year 9 of his (full-time) PhD. The institutional admin was warning me on day 1 'you don't want to end up like him! Hurry hurry work work work!' Which, tbf, was a bit unfair. But... wow. 4 years was insufferable enough. I can't even begin doing double that.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 27, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Chap in my institute's just entering (I think) either year 8 or year 9 of his (full-time) PhD. The institutional admin was warning me on day 1 'you don't want to end up like him! Hurry hurry work work work!' Which, tbf, was a bit unfair. But... wow. 4 years was insufferable enough. I can't even begin doing double that.


 
I know a guy who took 10 years (full time). They don't let you do that any more here. You get your 3 years as a full time research student, and 1 year as a continuation student (less fees, no office space etc, I think) if you go over that. Then, officially, all bets are off. I'm not actually sure what really happens at the end of that 4 years though. Policy says you're out on your ear. Not sure if they really stick to it in practice. I expect your supervisor would fight for you.

I've switched to part time. My absolute latest hand-in date is 2019.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 27, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I know a guy who took 10 years (full time). They don't let you do that any more here. You get your 3 years as a full time research student, and 1 year as a continuation student (less fees, no office space etc, I think) if you go over that. Then, officially, all bets are off. I'm not actually sure what really happens at the end of that 4 years though. Policy says you're out on your ear. Not sure if they really stick to it in practice. I expect your supervisor would fight for you.
> 
> I've switched to part time. My absolute latest hand-in date is 2019.


It fucks your dept's research council ranking and funding chances.

Don't quote me on this, but I think a couple of five-yearers (these days) are enough to comprehensively fuck most institutes' chances of attracting RC funding, if they stood any chance of getting any in the first place.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 27, 2012)

In fact, I can quote one of the emails I received from an increasingly-antsy University:



> The Degree Committees of all recipients of this email will be approached to confirm your removal from the register on the 3rd September unless by the end of the 30th September you have either:
> 
> (i) submitted your dissertation or
> (ii) applied for an 'Extension to your End of Registration Date', and had it approved by the Board of Graduate Studies (note that, if you have been ill or otherwise incapacitated in Michaelmas or Lent, you may also gain an extension by having an intermission in your course of study approved by the Board).
> ...


 
My RC sent me a series of increasingly-politely-concerned emails, too.


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh yes, I think you're right. A recent Phd-er managed to get AHRC funding, and the pressure to ensure she finished on time was epic, so as to not fuck the uni over any more. We are rated as shit-to-utterly shit as it is.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 27, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Oh yes, I think you're right. A recent Phd-er managed to get AHRC funding, and the pressure to ensure she finished on time was epic, so as to not fuck the uni over any more. We are rated as shit-to-utterly shit as it is.


D'you know, I have a feeling it's based on ALL PhDs. But don't quote me on that.


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 27, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> D'you know, I have a feeling it's based on ALL PhDs. But don't quote me on that.


 
Yep, you're probably right. I think the pressure was greater on her because she was the one who managed to get the money. Kind of a "if even you can't finish on time, how can we expect them to give us money again?" thing.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> More being able to say on job applications that I've submitted. And being able to *actually* get on with writing articles, etc, without a foot of paper sitting next to me, glaring!
> 
> HOWEVER, she replied this morning, I got it soft bound at 2pm, and submitted just before 4
> 
> ...


 
Congrats, soon-to-be-Dr-Quoad 

Next up, viva.  Arguing about corrections.  Easy.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> btw, how can the x axis continue beyond 'they already wrote your thesis'?
> 
> How can something be more relevant to your thesis, than your thesis?


 
Somebody who's done your research properly.

I've had that feeling many a time.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> Somebody who's done your research properly.
> 
> I've had that feeling many a time.


AHHHH! I've got a feeling that I've done *someone else's research* properly.

Which is quite a nice feeling, tbh.

Just need to get this effing article done!


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> AHHHH! I've got a feeling that I've done *someone else's research* properly.
> 
> Which is quite a nice feeling, tbh.
> 
> Just need to get this effing article done!


 
I've never had that feeling.  Is it one of knowing superiority or relief?


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## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> I've never had that feeling. Is it one of knowing superiority or relief?


"Thank fuck," "get in!," and "do I _really _want to collaborate with you?"


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> "Thank fuck," "get in!," and "do I _really _want to collaborate with you?"


 
I would warn about pride before a fall, but I've read some truly shocking academic papers so know just what you mean.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> I would warn about pride before a fall, but I've read some truly shocking academic papers so know just what you mean.


I very much get the sense that a book was written because that was felt to be a necessary outcome of the project.

It is, in theory, about the organisation that I'm interested in.

*However* in order to fit it into their theoretical framework of choice, they don't even touch on the elements of the organisation that're voluntary; and that's... a massive amount... of its work. Like, the *majority* of work is voluntary. But their theoretical framework relies on coercion. So that's all they cover.

They've also brought in stuff about two entirely unrelated coercive initiatives, in order to support / add to their theoretical framework.

It is interesting insofar as it goes - but it misses out on the contradictions within the organisation, which (IMO) are the most interesting and relevant bit. And it doesn't just miss out on them; it doesn't even mention them, despite the fact that they're well over half of what the organisation does...


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

This is a really shit analogy, but it's a bit like (IMO) writing a book about the yin / yang symbol, and then spending the entire book writing about the black bits, and how crucifixes are also commonly drawn / represented in black ink, which just goes to show.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm no expert, but would you trust any research which claimed to investigate every dimension of a system all at once?

I appreciate it's quite hard to disassociate elements of a social system in quite the same way as you can disassociate (read: control) elements of a physical system, which is more my bailiwick, but I'd look on anything considering itself as the fundamental view of a system with some degree of suspicion. But I will admit I have read a lot of papers that do just that, so I know where you're coming from. We had great fun on my last research programme where we had engineers and school of management employees (managers?) discussing the capture and persistence of design rationale. Technical and behavioral, but quite hard to test - or even consider - both at once. So I think we ended up testing neither, but good times were had arguing about second moments of area and hegemony of information all in the same sentence.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

I'd agree that there is certainly a lot to be gained from a selective study that concentrates on one area of something. Unless someone is setting out to write "the ultimate history and/or understanding and/or explanation of X" (which I'd argue can't be done, because nothing ever ends -- this is me talking from the arts, humanities and social sciences side of things, of course) every study is a building block upon which to build more studies.


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

been plenty of people in here over the last few years who have taken their three years of funding, dicked about in the lab (or not been in) and the day the funding finishes walked out the door with no intention of ever submitting.

Recently they've brought in progress monitoring for 2nd and 3rd years- about 9 months into your year.  The 2nd year one was just a really short presentation and a quick chat, but for the 3rd year one they're looking a 'substantial piece of writing', such as two chapters and a summary of what lab work has been done/ has still to be done and when you plan on submitting.

To go into a fourth of lab work means going before a panel and explaining why you need that extra year- some people have had legitimate reasons for needing it, projects just REALLY not working out etc, and the uni has sometimes found those cases money from somewhere.  

I can't see me being submitted within a year, but can see me being done in the lab and registering as 'thesis only' for my fourth year then taking maybe 3 months to write the thing.  I take it since you're still registered as a student, even if it's thesis only, you wouldn't be entitled to dole/ HB or anything?  Gonna have to try and get a few months rent set aside for when my stipend finishes....


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> I'm no expert, but would you trust any research which claimed to investigate every dimension of a system all at once?


Right.

This is one agency.

They contend 'this agency embodies x trend in criminal justice.'

In order to do that, they focus only on its coercive elements.

Well over half the agency's work is non-coercive.

Many of the people who come into contact with it will *never* experience any coercion.

If they'd acknowledged or reflected on those elements - which're, tbh, pretty unavoidable - then I'd think you had a very good point. But... they just haven't. They've brought in other, unrelated, coercive initiatives which *do* fit their theoretical framework. And they've just completely ignored the elements that *don't* fit their theoretical framework.

In other words, they seem to've started with a theoretical framework, and then worked backwards to make stuff fit; rather than beginning with what is actually happening, and working forward to seeing how well it fits their theoretical framework.

IMO, as a result, it is quite a confused (and very theoretical ) book. Someone reading it would be given the idea that 'this is what this coercive agency does.' When, tbh, that doesn't even begin to approach it.




Oh Nearly forgot! Something like two-thirds of the teams in the country don't even have any coercive powers. None whatsoever. They don't acknowledge that, either.

So for the teams that *do* have access to coercion, it's under half their work. For teams that *don't* have coercion, it's 0% of their work. And yet... that just isn't acknowledged or referenced anywhere, in any way.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'd agree that there is certainly a lot to be gained from a selective study that concentrates on one area of something. Unless someone is setting out to write "the ultimate history and/or understanding and/or explanation of X" (which I'd argue can't be done, because nothing ever ends -- this is me talking from the arts, humanities and social sciences side of things, of course) every study is a building block upon which to build more studies.


 
I agree entirely. Which is the backdrop for one of my biggest frustrations in academia, and one of the main drivers in my leaving - the academic with a dogmatic perspective and inability to see anything outside their immediate focus.

(rereading that, there's a possibility that could be misconstrued as being a comment on mrs quoad's post, which it isn't - I'd just like to make that clear. His was about inappropriate case study/experimentation, which I agree with and is also an issue)


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

We have 'progression' at the end of the first year (or thereabouts) whereby you have to submit 10-12k words (approx.), annotated bibliographies, endless amounts of paperwork detailing your progress, proof of X amount of research credits completed, and submit to a mock viva (in-house panel of 3). If you progress, you carry on. If you do really shit, I don't think they chuck you out, but you get super extra intense 'guidance' to get you on track.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

Kuso said:


> I take it since you're still registered as a student, even if it's thesis only, you wouldn't be entitled to dole/ HB or anything? Gonna have to try and get a few months rent set aside for when my stipend finishes....


 
Nope. Certainly not round here, at least. Lose any council tax advantages / reductions, too...

e2a: and our first / second year reviews are pieces of 7-10,000 words.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

This is what happens when money gets tight.

It's quite interesting- when I did my PhD (only mid-2000s) the funding was atrocious in comparison to now but the pressures to complete were much less.

When we went to full economic costing in our department everything suddenly became a lot more 'managed'.  I'm not making a case for whether it's good or bad for research per se, but it's certainly less enjoyable.


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

Although, I'm currently sitting across the lab from someone who's just entered his 5th year, still has some lab work to do and hasn't written anything other than an into... don't know how he's managed to wangle that.  Has cost him a fortune in fees- near £4000 for his 4th year and I don't know what he's paid this year.  Plus he's here every day so I've NO idea where money for living expenses is coming from.  No idea where he's getting money from for his actual uni work either since he was only funded for 3 years so has budget left...


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Kuso said:


> Although, I'm currently sitting across the lab from someone who's just entered his 5th year, still has some lab work to do and hasn't written anything other than an into... don't know how he's managed to wangle that. Has cost him a fortune in fees- near £4000 for his 4th year and I don't know what he's paid this year. Plus he's here every day so I've NO idea where money for living expenses is coming from. No idea where he's getting money from for his actual uni work either since he was only funded for 3 years so has budget left...


 
Industry bursary?

We do an EngDoc programme which is essentially doing a PhD case study from inside-out with industry contribution, but it takes a lot longer as you've not always got direct control of your line of enquiry.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> I agree entirely. Which is the backdrop for one of my biggest frustrations in academia, and one of the main drivers in my leaving - the academic with a dogmatic perspective and inability to see anything outside their immediate focus.
> 
> (rereading that, there's a possibility that could be misconstrued as being a comment on mrs quoad's post, which it isn't - I'd just like to make that clear. His was about inappropriate case study/experimentation, which I agree with and is also an issue)


 
Yep. I'm finding it quite a challenge at the moment actually. My uni places a lot of focus on interdisciplinary studies, to the extent that my undergrad degree and my MRes were both technically interdisciplinary (American Studies, and American Literature and Culture respectively). We're encouraged at every turn to not only look to transAtlanticism but also to reach beyond the boundaries of just one discipline. Of course, in practice you end up with staff and students focusing on the subject they enjoy, and that more or less goes out the window. But in theory, that encouragement is still there. However, as they historically do, literary profs have a distinct distrust of anything sociological. More specifically, my work brings in some of Bourdieu's concepts, and his is very uncomfortable work for a literary critic (because he demands self-reflexivity and by the very nature of his methods shines a light on the literary critic's own interests as a 'player of the game'). Academia is intensely self-referential, self-fulfilling, and narcissistic, and while there's an element of "well that's just how it works" it also makes it difficult to shine a light up to that very mechanism for fear of hurting a lot of egos and interests (particularly in a discipline like literary criticism, because of its claim to being _almost_ as creative as literature itself, and therefore beyond more worldly concerns ).


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

In terms of fees, I'm very lucky in that my university is paying all of mine. I don't get a stipend though.


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Nope. Certainly not round here, at least. Lose any council tax advantages / reductions, too...
> 
> e2a: and our first / second year reviews are pieces of 7-10,000 words.


 

In first year we had 'differentiation'.  When I started my phd I was registered just a 'post-graduate research student' and only after completing a differentiation report and going before a panel who judged whether the work would be of a phd standard etc did I become registered as a 'phd student'.  That report was only 50 pages, about 25-30 of introduction and the remaining being methods, results & discussion to date and then a forward plan.

We seem to think in terms of 'pages' rather than 'words' in here.  Probably since there'll be so many graphs, pictures, diagrams, scans of blots, chemical structures etc


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Right.
> 
> This is one agency.
> 
> ...


 
I ask for your indulgence, as having read that I'm still not sure they've done much wrong.  If I follow correctly, they're testing something to do with coercion (I have no idea what that means or represents, if that's important?) and have looked at a system which has elements of coercion.  They haven't mentioned things outside their area of enquiry.  Would these things impact what they're testing?


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Kuso said:


> In first year we had 'differentiation'. When I started my phd I was registered just a 'post-graduate research student' and only after completing a differentiation report and going before a panel who judged whether the work would be of a phd standard etc did I become registered as a 'phd student'. That report was only 50 pages, about 25-30 of introduction and the remaining being methods, results & discussion to date and then a forward plan.
> 
> We seem to think in terms of 'pages' rather than 'words' in here. Probably since there'll be so many graphs, pictures, diagrams, scans of blots, chemical structures etc


 
We had a transfer report which was much the same, but 'examined' by your internal examiner.  I use the quotes as it wasn't exactly rigorous.

My understanding was that it was done only a nicety, as strictly speaking you require a masters by research (MPhil) to undertake a PhD and the transfer report was almost an MPhil by proxy.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yep. I'm finding it quite a challenge at the moment actually. My uni places a lot of focus on interdisciplinary studies, to the extent that my undergrad degree and my MRes were both technically interdisciplinary (American Studies, and American Literature and Culture respectively). We're encouraged at every turn to not only look to transAtlanticism but also to reach beyond the boundaries of just one discipline. Of course, in practice you end up with staff and students focusing on the subject they enjoy, and that more or less goes out the window. But in theory, that encouragement is still there. However, as they historically do, literary profs have a distinct distrust of anything sociological. More specifically, my work brings in some of Bourdieu's concepts, and his is very uncomfortable work for a literary critic (because he demands self-reflexivity and by the very nature of his methods shines a light on the literary critic's own interests as a 'player of the game'). Academia is intensely self-referential, self-fulfilling, and narcissistic, and while there's an element of "well that's just how it works" it also makes it difficult to shine a light up to that very mechanism for fear of hurting a lot of egos and interests (particularly in a discipline like literary criticism, because of its claim to being _almost_ as creative as literature itself, and therefore beyond more worldly concerns ).


 


My experiences of working in multi-disciplinary endeavours is that it's just more people to confuse and piss off in more variant ways.

I reached the conclusion long ago that myopia is a bringer of progression - introspection and self-doubt are rarely characteristics of professors or executives.  On the other hand, ego and narcissism invariably are.


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> In terms of fees, I'm very lucky in that my university is paying all of mine. I don't get a stipend though.


 
DEL - Department of Employment and Learning (is this just a NI thing?) pay my fees and I get a monthly stipend from them, and they also provide the uni with a budget for my project work- although £700 odd doesn't go very far doing lab based stuff.  I spent last years one in one go on the day it arrived solely on enzymes and a cell line.  The university provide each research cluster with some money, but how much depends on publications etc.  Less publications = less money, but less money means less funding for work which might get published so vicious cycle really.  Apart from that the three PIs in my cluster are never done writing grant applications but very few ever seem successful.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

America generally gauges in terms of pages, not words, too. All the way down to undergrad and below I believe. It makes it quite confusing.

I'm still of the opinion that a lot of American undergrad work (not familiar with higher levels) requires a lower quality than ours. They have to submit more work on an on-going basis, but it's papers of 1 or 2 sides (double spaced), or multiple choice quizzes, etc. From my experience of someone who is in their final year of an undergrad degree there, who regularly gets As, their work is very, very basic. They also have very broad degrees. He's doing a cyber security degree, and half if not more of his classes each semester are things like speech, film, english, history, religion, philosophy, etc. An element of broad education is a good thing, I think, for teaching critical thinking skills and ways to apply them. But it means that their chosen specialist subject barely gets any depth at all. It's all like a series of intro classes that touches on a few basic concepts and that's it. I'm rather suspicious of the whole thing. But perhaps that's my anglo-centricism coming out.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> America generally gauges in terms of pages, not words, too. All the way down to undergrad and below I believe. It makes it quite confusing.
> 
> I'm still of the opinion that a lot of American undergrad work (not familiar with higher levels) requires a lower quality than ours. They have to submit more work on an on-going basis, but it's papers of 1 or 2 sides (double spaced), or multiple choice quizzes, etc. From my experience of someone who is in their final year of an undergrad degree there, who regularly gets As, their work is very, very basic. They also have very broad degrees. He's doing a cyber security degree, and half if not more of his classes each semester are things like speech, film, english, history, religion, philosophy, etc. An element of broad education is a good thing, I think, for teaching critical thinking skills and ways to apply them. But it means that their chosen specialist subject barely gets any depth at all. It's all like a series of intro classes that touches on a few basic concepts and that's it. I'm rather suspicious of the whole thing. But perhaps that's my anglo-centricism coming out.


 
I think we go too narrow, and too narrow too quickly, but appreciate there's probably a sweet spot out there that we miss one way and the US the other.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> I ask for your indulgence, as having read that I'm still not sure they've done much wrong. If I follow correctly, they're testing something to do with coercion (I have no idea what that means or represents, if that's important?) and have looked at a system which has elements of coercion. They haven't mentioned things outside their area of enquiry. Would these things impact what they're testing?


Yes 

Coercion = legal punishments for not co-operating / not attending.

It's a case study that claims to be looking at every element of the organisation, but which is only looking at the punishing elements. When, like, well over half the work is entirely supportive / non-punishing. It doesn't so much as reference the non-punitive elements, which is - IMO - quite incredible given how much of the agency's work is non-punishable. If they'd said 'but we're not looking at that,' then ok. But they don't. They state they're looking at the org and its position in wider society, and then... don't do that. And paint a black-and-white picture which is, IMO, a very considerable mis-representation of what's actually happening.

It situates the agency within a theoretical framework that's all about the rise of punishment / coercion, and how everything is becoming punishable. When, like, it completely misses the fact that most of the work it's doing involves not even the slightest risk of punishment. It's purely supportive. And *that* IMO indicates a trend in completely the opposite direction - towards bringing purely unpunishable supportive work into criminal justice.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> I think we go too narrow, and too narrow too quickly, but appreciate there's probably a sweet spot out there that we miss one way and the US the other.


 
There are electives in the first year of undergrad degrees at my uni, whereby you take 2 modules per semester outside your subject area, and have to fulfil a quota of, say, 1 from a technology subject (if you're not tech based), something from a maths thing, a cultural-type thing, and so on. They aren't treated with the same importance as your main subject, though, and are more or less throwaway things. I did something on databases, web design, and then picked 2 that dealt with American Studies (which somehow they let me do, even though it was my main subject) - a history module and a media module. They are trying to make it even broader now, in that they are breaking down the internal walls between departments, meaning students can choose modules from a range of subject areas throughout their 3 years, as long as they are tangentially related in some way. But then, my uni pioneered the idea of the interdisciplinary degree, and there are only about 3 or 4 degree programmes on offer that are single subject (American Studies being one of them, and only because it is interdisciplinary by design, focusing on history, politics, culture, film and lit). So you have to take 2 subjects, like Philosophy and History, or English and International Relations, or whatever. It also means there can be some really weird and wonderful degrees out there, like Law and Biology, Geology and Media Studies, etc


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Yes
> 
> Coercion = legal punishments for not co-operating / not attending.
> 
> ...


 
Ah, ta for explanation.

Is your fundamental criticism with the research itself, or how the research is positioned? I've no bother with people limiting scope, but it is incredibly annoying when that limited scope isn't acknowledged, especially when in certain contexts that limitation could invalidate findings. On a personal level, it's annoying as it muddies the water for anyone who follows up with a different scope.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> There are electives in the first year of undergrad degrees at my uni, whereby you take 2 modules per semester outside your subject area, and have to fulfil a quota of, say, 1 from a technology subject (if you're not tech based), something from a maths thing, a cultural-type thing, and so on. They aren't treated with the same importance as your main subject, though, and are more or less throwaway things. I did something on databases, web design, and then picked 2 that dealt with American Studies (which somehow they let me do, even though it was my main subject) - a history module and a media module. They are trying to make it even broader now, in that they are breaking down the internal walls between departments, meaning students can choose modules from a range of subject areas throughout their 3 years, as long as they are tangentially related in some way. But then, my uni pioneered the idea of the interdisciplinary degree, and there are only about 3 or 4 degree programmes on offer that are single subject (American Studies being one of them, and only because it is interdisciplinary by design, focusing on history, politics, culture, film and lit). So you have to take 2 subjects, like Philosophy and History, or English and International Relations, or whatever. It also means there can be some really weird and wonderful degrees out there, like Law and Biology, Geology and Media Studies, etc


 
Geology and Media Studies 

My missus did theology and drama.  I keep telling her it's simply two elements of make-believe.

Is this the minor/major subject thing, btw?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> Geology and Media Studies
> 
> My missus did theology and drama. I keep telling her it's simply two elements of make-believe.
> 
> Is this the minor/major subject thing, btw?


 
Nope, they get equal weighting. We don't do major/minors here. It's either one of the (rare) single subject degrees, or a joint double honours degree.

http://www.keele.ac.uk/studyatkeele/undergraduatestudy/degreestructures/whatisadualhonoursdegree/

It lists some of the unusual combinations people sometimes study 

Looking at the Single honours link, they've expanded that list quite a bit since I started in 2005, when there were only about 3 or 4.

OH! AND they've started offering major-minor degrees. Again, something you couldn't do when I started. I'm out of the loop.


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> We had a transfer report which was much the same, but 'examined' by your internal examiner. I use the quotes as it wasn't exactly rigorous.
> 
> My understanding was that it was done only a nicety, as strictly speaking you require a masters by research (MPhil) to undertake a PhD and the transfer report was almost an MPhil by proxy.


 
yeah, mine wasn't exactly too rigorous either.  I had been bricking it, but it was all rather informal - supervisor there and then the panel was two people from the same research cluster/ group so the idea being they'd have *some* knowledge of the kind of thing you're working on.  Mine didn't , so it was 30 mins of just explaining the whole thing to them.  I suppose because I applied for a PhD project that had been advertised, there was already the understanding that there was sufficient work there for a PhD.

I have heard stories though of people doing other, non science PhDs who have basically been told at their's that the idea/ concept isn't sufficiently novel or they've found that there isn't enough resource material  to get a PhD out of it so have been told just to write up what they have for MPhil.

One of the people from my lab who submitted round about November last year, so just a few months after his three years funding had finished was only awarded an MPhil, and only after MAJOR corrections.  There was a fair amount of criticism placed on his supervisor (mine ), but there were major flaws in his experiment design and he was drawing conclusions from data that weren't really there etc.  He was told this OVER and OVER but just wouldn't listen.  For example, one enzyme assay he ran- two different concentrations of inhibitor, but no blank, no control, no replicates...

I can remember going in for a meeting with my supervisor just after this guy and my super has his head in his hands and was proper stressed, said the guy hadn't corrected anything that was pointed out at the last meeting, said it was all OK and that he was happy with it and had come in with more results drawn from poorly designed experiments etc.  He was told over and over that the work wasn't up to scratch but my super said it was like banging your head against a wall, the guy just wouldn't listen.  When he had his final draft printed he was told that based on that, regardless of how his actual viva went, he wasn't going to be awarded his PhD but he went ahead and submitted it anyway... 

Its not like he was just using this as something to do for 3 years and a bit of cash and was happy with getting a Masters, he was really upset and shocked after his viva that he hadn't got his PhD, and other people were asking why the supervisor hadn't stepped in earlier but he'd been telling him for about 2 years the work wasn't up to scratch but he just wouldn't listen!


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Kuso said:


> yeah, mine wasn't exactly too rigorous either. I had been bricking it, but it was all rather informal - supervisor there and then the panel was two people from the same research cluster/ group so the idea being they'd have *some* knowledge of the kind of thing you're working on. Mine didn't , so it was 30 mins of just explaining the whole thing to them. I suppose because I applied for a PhD project that had been advertised, there was already the understanding that there was sufficient work there for a PhD.
> 
> I have heard stories though of people doing other, non science PhDs who have basically been told at their's that the idea/ concept isn't sufficiently novel or they've found that there isn't enough resource material to get a PhD out of it so have been told just to write up what they have for MPhil.
> 
> ...


 
Sad to say, some people just have to learn the hard way.  You can do whatever the hell you like for your PhD, ultimately it's yours and not the supervisor's, but it's hard to see why you'd not listen to them.

Was there some trust/respect issue between supervisor and candidate, or just a hopelessly out of touch candidate?


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> There are electives in the first year of undergrad degrees at my uni, whereby you take 2 modules per semester outside your subject area, and have to fulfil a quota of, say, 1 from a technology subject (if you're not tech based), something from a maths thing, a cultural-type thing, and so on. They aren't treated with the same importance as your main subject, though, and are more or less throwaway things. I did something on databases, web design, and then picked 2 that dealt with American Studies (which somehow they let me do, even though it was my main subject) - a history module and a media module. They are trying to make it even broader now, in that they are breaking down the internal walls between departments, meaning students can choose modules from a range of subject areas throughout their 3 years, as long as they are tangentially related in some way. But then, my uni pioneered the idea of the interdisciplinary degree, and there are only about 3 or 4 degree programmes on offer that are single subject (American Studies being one of them, and only because it is interdisciplinary by design, focusing on history, politics, culture, film and lit). So you have to take 2 subjects, like Philosophy and History, or English and International Relations, or whatever. It also means there can be some really weird and wonderful degrees out there, like Law and Biology, Geology and Media Studies, etc


 
I'd no choice in any of the modules I took, since the degree's accredited by a professional society.  I did get to chose which research cluster I did my final year/ Masters project in though


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> Sad to say, some people just have to learn the hard way. You can do whatever the hell you like for your PhD, ultimately it's yours and not the supervisor's, but it's hard to see why you'd not listen to them.
> 
> Was there some trust/respect issue between supervisor and candidate, or just a hopelessly out of touch candidate?


 
He was never done singing the praises of our supervisor, I think he just lived completely in a world of his own creation.  He was really quite strange and for someone who was obviously intelligent enough to have got to PhD level, held some seriously weird and, to be frank, stupid views and opinions (the world being flat for a start  ).  He was notorious around the school, people from other labs used to ask how we put up having him in ours but you just learnt to tune out his ramblings


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

Kuso said:


> He was never done singing the praises of our supervisor, I think he just lived completely in a world of his own creation. He was really quite strange and for someone who was obviously intelligent enough to have got to PhD level, held some seriously weird and, to be frank, stupid views and opinions (*the world being flat for a start*  ). He was notorious around the school, people from other labs used to ask how we put up having him in ours but you just learnt to tune out his ramblings


 


Methinks he was never cut out for a career in science.


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Methinks he was never cut out for a career in science.


 
These things can go either way - he'd either crash and burn or make professor in five years.


----------



## Kuso (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Methinks he was never cut out for a career in science.


 
Indeed...

I can still remember the day it came up in conversation.  We all thought he was taking the piss, no... So we tried to explain it to him but he just wouldn't listen to anything about it, just kept saying "no, its flat.  It's all just a con"

He had great convictions in several conspiracy theories too, including that 'Big Pharma' already had the cure for cancer and it was some magic water type thing.  Really off view to have when working on cancer research! 

See, I got to know the guy gradually over a couple of years so every new, weird thing didn't seem that odd.  "Oh, its just ****. You know what he's like!"  But now I'm typing this I'm convinced the guy was a fair few electrons short of an atom


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2012)

We had an older South African working with us who gradually became convinced the student union president and Elton John were spying on him, and that the trials and tribulations he was experiencing were the result of a concerted plot against him.

He was eventually barred from campus for harassing his supervisors, who by then were at wits' end.

Tragic, and made worse by the fact he was an insightful guy who started out as interesting and sociable but slowly lost the plot.  I wonder if doing a PhD put him under certain strains that exacerbated his difficulties.  I think he still suffers now, and it must be getting on for 5 or 6 years on.


----------



## toggle (Sep 28, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Ah, ok.
> 
> I wasn't aware Toggle was doing a PhD.
> 
> Will any of us have jobs in academia to go to once we've finished? It's not looking good.


 
nor was I.

just starting an mres in history, looking into liberal unionism in cornwall, possibly with some other regious to compare to. i've left it very open ended so i've got loads of options for increacing/decreacing content as i need to, which my tutor seems to like the idea of. currently writing up my undergrad dissertation into a journal article, which he seems to like the idea of even more.

phd in a couple of years.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Sep 28, 2012)

Yeah, jobs are thin on the ground these days. In the arts and humanities, of course, it's getting even worse. A 100% cut in funding from the government. Cheers Dave/Nick/Cunts.


----------



## toggle (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yeah, jobs are thin on the ground these days. In the arts and humanities, of course, it's getting even worse. A 100% cut in funding from the government. Cheers Dave/Nick/Cunts.


which makes it odd that the history dept i'm studying with have just taken on 7 new teaching staff, to replace 2 leaving, one on maternity leave and one taking a sbatical from teaching to take on a year of faculty management


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 28, 2012)

mattie said:


> Ah, ta for explanation.
> 
> Is your fundamental criticism with the research itself, or how the research is positioned? I've no bother with people limiting scope, but it is incredibly annoying when that limited scope isn't acknowledged, especially when in certain contexts that limitation could invalidate findings. On a personal level, it's annoying as it muddies the water for anyone who follows up with a different scope.


The framework they've applied is - IMO - mismatched. They've taken a theoretical framework and applied it to the bits that it can be applied to, drawing in irrelevant things that match the framework, whilst ignoring the unavoidably relevant bits that don't fit the framework.

So - IMO - they've tried to jam things into the framework they wanted to use, rather than looking at the data and thinking 'you know what, there's something interesting going on here - but it doesn't fit within that framework.'


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 29, 2012)

toggle said:


> nor was I.
> 
> just starting an mres in history, looking into liberal unionism in cornwall, possibly with some other regious to compare to. i've left it very open ended so i've got loads of options for increacing/decreacing content as i need to, which my tutor seems to like the idea of. currently writing up my undergrad dissertation into a journal article, which he seems to like the idea of even more.
> 
> phd in a couple of years.


Lol! I should get the info from the source really. 

Good luck with your MRes.


----------



## Kuso (Oct 1, 2012)

ah, fucking bloody tissue culture hood had just died...

All I tried to do was turn on the light since once it's dark outside it's pretty dark inside the hood, whether the light's on in the lab or not.  The thing hasn't worked properly since I started, but on the odd occasion it'll turn on for ya.  Hit the light switch and got some error message reading 'unrecoverable cpu error' or something and incessant beeping.  Had to turn it off at the main power.  Need to do that work tonight so I'll have to carry all my gear over to another lab in the building and hope they don't mind me using their's at this time of night with no notification.

Who is it says in The Wire that 'just for once they'd like to work for a real police department, see how they do it?' ?  That's how I feel about this uni...  I'll get in touch with the technician who's responsible for the lab in the morning but tbh I don't know why the uni bothers employing him.  I'd equipment go missing from another part of the lab he's supposed to responsible for (it belongs to my group and the lab it was in) and his response was a shrug and to tell me I should have anything valuable locked away at night, but if I knew what day it went missing he'd check the CCTV...


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 6, 2012)

I'm trying to summon up the enthusiasm required to fill in a series of bloody awful text boxes on an application for a post that I don't want, for a position that won't start until September 2013, for a pay packet I don't find appealing.

However, having emailed the dept in question before finding out the start date, I've kinda got to finish it


----------



## Kuso (Oct 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I'm trying to summon up the enthusiasm required to fill in a series of bloody awful text boxes on an application for a post that I don't want, for a position that won't start until September 2013, for a pay packet I don't find appealing.
> 
> However, having emailed the dept in question before finding out the start date, I've kinda got to finish it


 
I love how this has turned into the "phd moans n groans thread", but its surely needed!

*half hearted* "go on quoady- you can do it etc. it IS saturday night, can't it wait til even tomorrow? on a more serious note- at least it might be good interview practice/ experience of the application process (or something)


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 6, 2012)

Kuso said:


> *half hearted* "go on quoady- you can do it etc. it IS saturday night, can't it wait til even tomorrow? on a more serious note- at least it might be good interview practice/ experience of the application process (or something)


I'm off to f***ing France tomorrow!

At 10 bloody am, at the latest. More like leaving the house at 9. Getting home at 9 o'clock on Monday evening, giving the cat just enough time to get desperate and shit all over the house before my return 

e2a: and it's unlikely to be good interview experience, because this is a draft submission; it's a filtering process, the 'applications process proper' gets underway in Feb


----------



## Kuso (Oct 6, 2012)

ah, well in that case...  can't really help with your motivation, though perhaps I can do a wee cheeleader style dance in the shower here "go quoady, go quoady, it's your birthday, gonna party like it's..." ooops, oh wait 

get it done, and enjoy France!


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## mrs quoad (Oct 6, 2012)

Kuso said:


> get it done, and enjoy France!


I'll have to  All 8-9 hours of traveling, and 5-10 hours there


----------



## Kuso (Oct 6, 2012)

swap???


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## mrs quoad (Oct 6, 2012)

Kuso said:


> swap???


I'd love to.

But Artichoke would kill me.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 6, 2012)

13,200 characters down.

6,000 to go.

And I'm off to the gym.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 7, 2012)

Ugh.

Well, that *was* a lovely workout.

I've printed out the draft. I think it's a complete pig, but ay 

I'll be taking my laptop on the train tomorrow, and submitting it some time before I hit France.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 7, 2012)

Now, what do I need...

Laptop
Mobile phone
Laptop charger
Passport
Tickets
1 pair pants
2 socks (?)
Shirt (?)
4th favourite fountain pen
Pad
Artichoke's "I'll kill you if you leave them behind" printouts
Artichoke's chocolate
Keys
Wallet
Printed-out draft of application.

Gotta leave the cat 2 days' food, too.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 7, 2012)

Submitted just south of Stevenage


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## Kuso (Oct 7, 2012)

congrats man! fingers crossed I'm in the same position this time next year (submitting, not just south of Stevenage!)


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 7, 2012)

Kuso said:


> congrats man! fingers crossed I'm in the same position this time next year (submitting, not just south of Stevenage!)


Oh, the phd went in on the 18th! This was a postdoc application  far less work involved 

Good luck, ay!


----------



## Kuso (Oct 7, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Oh, the phd went in on the 18th! This was a postdoc application  far less work involved
> 
> Good luck, ay!


 
 of course, Sunday morning fuzzy head.  Enjoy France good sir


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 11, 2012)

Applying for another job I'm not overly keen on 

This one follows up the application form with a 'presentation day.' I'm not sure if everyone who's shortlisted rocks up and presents at each other (sounds like it!) or if we'd be one after the other.



e2a: Sorted. Not sure whether or not I want to be invited to the selection day, mind


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 14, 2012)

Well.

Looks like the postdoc I applied for hasn't gone through.

I emailed my proposed mentor the day before I submitted (before heading off to France), and submitted to my proposed host institution.

Looking at the online documentation, looks like they've taken no action on it, and the deadline for them to do so was the 11th.

My proposed postdoc mentor hasn't replied to my pre-submission email, either.

Well, I guess that's a more-or-less impolite and more-or-less intentional 'fuck off,' then


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 8, 2012)

upgrade presentation finished today, so I'm having the bloody weekend off


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 6, 2012)

Just had my viva.

'Minor' corrections of a kind that require one helluva lot more reading, writing, and editing.

Pffffft.

e2a: my examiners were saying 'but the take home message is to go home and celebrate!!! And not do any more work today!!!' And I was mostly thinking, 'oh, *fuck*, another month or three of working with the same f***ing project I've been working on for 4.5ish years. Gah.

It is *properly* relentless.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 6, 2012)

Bad luck quoady.


----------



## mattie (Dec 6, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Just had my viva.
> 
> 'Minor' corrections of a kind that require one helluva lot more reading, writing, and editing.
> 
> ...


 
Mate, that is a win - there's now a firm end in sight.

Nice one!


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 6, 2012)

mattie said:


> Mate, that is a win - there's now a firm end in sight.
> 
> Nice one!


A firm end *after* I've read approximately 20 substantial books on organisational culture, synthesised them, explained how different traditional CJ agencies are to my third sector agencies, and then embedded that in a coherent strand throughout my entire thesis, yes*  And that's one of the five changes 

*e2a: and worked out which of the 79,980 words I've currently got are expendable / replaceable to fit that within my 80k word limit, too


----------



## fractionMan (Dec 7, 2012)

And to think I nearly put myself through this


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## mattie (Dec 7, 2012)

A bullet well dodged.


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 7, 2012)

My major problem is funding. I need to go out of London to do some important interviews and visit some archives but I never have the money to do it. 

PG students are treated pretty appallingly in the UK.


----------



## toggle (Dec 7, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> My major problem is funding. I need to go out of London to do some important interviews and visit some archives but I never have the money to do it.
> 
> PG students are treated pretty appallingly in the UK.


 
i'm looking into whether i can get access funds for archive visits.


----------



## Mapped (Dec 7, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> My major problem is funding. I need to go out of London to do some important interviews and visit some archives but I never have the money to do it.
> 
> PG students are treated pretty appallingly in the UK.


 
Who are you funded by? My old intern milked ESRC for everything he could. They paid for him to visit archives in the US, a 6 month stint in London with all rent and travel paid, he didn't seem that he was being mistreated. Maybe he had some better connected supervisors or something


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 8, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Just had my viva.
> 
> 'Minor' corrections of a kind that require one helluva lot more reading, writing, and editing.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on passing your viva.

Yes, there's corrections but you can do it. Then you will be Dr Mrs Quoad.


----------



## Mapped (Dec 8, 2012)

^^^^ that is a win. There's a guy in my team who has been through 3 vivas and is still slogging away


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

N1 Buoy said:


> ^^^^ that is a win. There's a guy in my team who has been through 3 vivas and is still slogging away


 
ouch


----------



## Mapped (Dec 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> ouch


 
He's OK. He's earning decent money and has a full time job in his research area, which I think may be distracting him from actually finishing the fucking thing


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 8, 2012)

N1 Buoy said:


> Who are you funded by? My old intern milked ESRC for everything he could. They paid for him to visit archives in the US, a 6 month stint in London with all rent and travel paid, he didn't seem that he was being mistreated. Maybe he had some better connected supervisors or something


I'm not funded at all. I get a fee waiver and that's it. I applied to AHRC on 3 separate occasions but no luck. They've changed the way funds are allocated too. Instead of applying directly to the funding body, you have to apply to a panel of universities, who then interview you. This happened to me a year ago. I was interviewed in a tiny stuffy room and there were 6 of them. All of them assumed that I'd just started my research and asked me really stupid questions like "what do you think a supervisor is for"?

Some universities (like the Russell Group) are much better at attracting funds. Generally speaking, the post 1992 unis are not. I'm at a post-1992 uni. If only I'd stayed at the University of London.


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## nino_savatte (Dec 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> i'm looking into whether i can get access funds for archive visits.


Some universities offer research students money for archive visits. Good luck!


----------



## Mapped (Dec 8, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm not funded at all. I get a fee waiver and that's it. I applied to AHRC on 3 separate occasions but no luck. They've changed the way funds are allocated too. Instead of applying directly to the funding body, you have to apply to a panel of universities, who then interview you. This happened to me a year ago. I was interviewed in a tiny stuffy room and there were 6 of them. All of them assumed that I'd just started my research and asked me really stupid questions like "what do you think a supervisor is for"?
> 
> Some universities (like the Russell Group) are much better at attracting funds. Generally speaking, the post 1992 unis are not. I'm at a post-1992 uni. If only I'd stayed at the University of London.


 
The social sciences have gone down this route recently with Uni's coming together to form Doctoral Training Centres. It must suck a bit to be on an unfunded phd the funded guys get loads of extra bits and bobs for travelling, conferences, training, as well as the grant


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 8, 2012)

N1 Buoy said:


> The social sciences have gone down this route recently with Uni's coming together to form Doctoral Training Centres. It must suck a bit to be on an unfunded phd the funded guys get loads of extra bits and bobs for travelling, conferences, training, as well as the grant


Yep. I'm told that in the US, the home of hypercapitalism, there is much more financial support available for postgrads. Here, the attitude seems to be "haven't you had enough education"?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm unfunded, I do find it concentrates the mind on your work a bit more (I'm determined to finish in 3 years, so I'm organising myself on that basis). It's knackering and you have to be organised but I actually think it's better for me.

(plus, my project is about work and workplace militancy, and the fact that I've worked full-time outside academia for the last decade and I'm still working, does keep everything less abstract)


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 8, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Yep. I'm told that in the US, the home of hypercapitalism, there is much more financial support available for postgrads. Here, the attitude seems to be "haven't you had enough education"?


they work them to the bone as well though - PhDs over there seem to just be full-time dirt cheap tutors, and part-part-part-time researchers...


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 8, 2012)

Lo Siento. said:


> they work them to the bone as well though - PhDs over there seem to just be full-time dirt cheap tutors, and part-part-part-time researchers...


Well that wouldn't surprise me. Of course, on the continent, it's different again.


----------



## Mapped (Dec 8, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Yep. I'm told that in the US, the home of hypercapitalism, there is much more financial support available for postgrads. Here, the attitude seems to be "haven't you had enough education"?


 
Tell me about it. I've just started paying back £7.5k for my MSc


----------



## Kuso (Dec 8, 2012)

congrats quoady!

I've come to a bit of a realization with mine- a PhD is still _education _and its about teaching you to be an effective researcher, its not about the final 'score' but the process.

I thought I was doing terribly because I'd very little positive data but I've TONS of negative data and good reasons and other experiments that show why the bigger ones didn't work as expected.  But the experiements were carried out on sound rationale, carried out properly, with proper controls and properly optimised and there's no way you could pick holes in the conclusions I've drawn from the results.

I've also decided that I've had enough of technician's bullshit- he might have been there for so many years and I'm only there 2 and a bit but he isn't doing his fucking job re: getting equipment fixed etc and so I told him this.  It didn't improve so I went to the PI's and it got sorted QUICKLY- two days after months of me chasing him... 

also been offered a post grad place carrying on my work basically if the grants come through (fingers crossed), they're for big money so I've been told all problems I've had accessing equipment etc will be a thing of the past as we'll be able to buy our own


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 9, 2012)

N1 Buoy said:


> The social sciences have gone down this route recently with Uni's coming together to form Doctoral Training Centres. It must suck a bit to be on an unfunded phd the funded guys get loads of extra bits and bobs for travelling, conferences, training, as well as the grant


Within my institute, "unfunded phd" means "I've decided / am able to pay the c.£60k in required fees & available maintenance myself." The institute's generic support - as distinct from award-specific support - is the same across the board. I think. 

Though tbf, that's (iirc) £150 per person per year! (My esrc srudentship came with about £960 p/a for research, training and development.)


----------



## Mapped (Dec 9, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Within my institute, "unfunded phd" means "I've decided / am able to pay the c.£60k in required fees & available maintenance myself."


 
Well there is that little thing as well  Fair play for stumping up that cash.

My observation was that funding councils, the ESRC anyway, have all sorts of additional bits of help and funding for their already-grant funded students.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 9, 2012)

In my experience, the DTCs make the money available to the unis, the the departments make it available on a less than equal basis.


----------



## Kuso (Dec 9, 2012)

though saying all that we'll see how well a big meeting goes with my supervisor this friday- had planned on a weekend in the lab whilst on call for work but didn't fancy it on sat in case I couldn't get home ("dey toook our fleg!" protests ) and not long up after it seemed the were playing a cruel joke on me last night- would get in the door and back into bed and the phone would ring again .  Training course 9-5 Mon- Thursday so in the lab all night all week trying to make sense of a few things and run a few more assays


----------



## mrs quoad (Jan 9, 2013)

Have sent my supervisor drafts for the two long / literature intensive pieces of work.

The remaining 3 are, erm, more independent of the literature.

And also pretty solidly drafted, tbf.

e2a: shit on a bicycle! Make that 3. I'd entirely forgotten how much work I'd put into these before we fucked off for Christmas.


----------



## mrs quoad (Jan 10, 2013)

4.... One to go... (And that just needs references. Something something something, erm, informed consent!)


----------



## mrs quoad (Jan 10, 2013)

Think I may've finished *writing* my PhD 

It's an extra 14,750 words  But my supervisor's told me not to worry about that, as these are required *additions* to the thesis as submitted.


----------



## mrs quoad (Jan 11, 2013)

I have done literally fuck all of anything today  In fact, I'm in bed with a cat sleeping on top of me at this very moment.


----------



## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> I have done literally fuck all of anything today  In fact, I'm in bed with a cat sleeping on top of me at this very moment.


 

so glad i'm not the only one who feels the need to have duvet days.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> so glad i'm not the only one who feels the need to have duvet days.


I still have duvet days (just not during the week). I think you just need to recharge sometimes.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jan 12, 2013)

I wish I could have duvet days, but my day job gets me out of bed at 7.30am every morning


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> I wish I could have duvet days, but my day job gets me out of bed at 7.30am every morning


I'm am my desk then


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jan 17, 2013)

I got upgraded today  (and got told lots of flattering things by department bigwigs, so feeling pretty great right now!)


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

if you have a really bad day (crying at boss), and then spend over an hour sorting out your spss data file, don't then find you have NO IDEA where it has saved despite you saving it twice to dropbox  fucking cunting wank


----------



## mrs quoad (Feb 1, 2013)

aqua said:


> if you have a really bad day (crying at boss), and then spend over an hour sorting out your spss data file, don't then find you have NO IDEA where it has saved despite you saving it twice to dropbox  fucking cunting wank


Oop! Has it turned up?

I'm getting feedback on my amendments atm... Rolling in as I type... Both supervisors happy with one (of five) sections...

But one of my supervisors is making some Very Odd suggestions about the second  She's suggesting I take out the only bit of literature that - afaict - is directly relevant to my topic, and replace it with two other bits (that would need some Very Considerable Reading) that... erm... don't... bear any relevance to what I was asked to amend  AFAICT. Erm?

I've asked for some clarification!


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## Idris2002 (Feb 1, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Just had my viva.
> 
> 'Minor' corrections of a kind that require one helluva lot more reading, writing, and editing.
> 
> ...


 
Good for you man. And your viva experience sounds a lot, lot better than mine.


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## aqua (Feb 1, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Oop! Has it turned up?


yep found it, spent 2 hours recoding and computing variables to then do a copy &paste fuck up that couldn't be undone  so had to redo it all. A least I learnt how to do mass recodes but still


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## Cheesypoof (Feb 1, 2013)

you lot and your PHDs, why bother?


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## aqua (Feb 1, 2013)

Cheesypoof said:


> you lot and your PHDs, why bother?


For me it's a personal challenge


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## Cheesypoof (Feb 1, 2013)

aqua said:


> For me it's a personal challenge


 
fair enough, I aint knocking it!! just find it mind boggling that anyone could put themselves through the pain!

mind you, I hate studying, even if I like the subject


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## aqua (Feb 1, 2013)

Cheesypoof said:


> fair enough, I aint knocking it!! just find it mind boggling that anyone could put themselves through the pain!
> 
> mind you, I hate studying, even if I like the subject


I found out at 30 that I was dyslexic, so I wanted something to challenge me after my view of my own ability changed 

Would I recommend it to someone else? Fuck no I wouldn't and if I wasn't so stubborn I would have quit by now!


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## Cheesypoof (Feb 1, 2013)

aqua said:


> I found out at 30 that I was dyslexic, so I wanted something to challenge me after my view of my own ability changed


 
that is amazing! keep going!


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## mrs quoad (Feb 2, 2013)

Cheesypoof said:


> you lot and your PHDs, why bother?


From the moment I sobered up, I was pretty heavily involved with ways of addressing drug problems. Firstly, through Narcotics Anonymous; secondly, as an addictions counsellor.

In both those settings, it was pretty bloody clear to me that some people had a very difficult time. Some NA groups were unsafe for women. The treatment unit I worked in had _no _women graduates for over four years. The same applied to people with serious mental illnesses, in both NA and my treatment unit. The unit was also managed by people who created unaccountable fiefdoms, and who relied on 'common sense.' Which meant making everything up, never changing anything, and bullying the fuck anyone who disagreed.

The agency then lost a major contract, because my employers had pissed off local commissioners so comprehensively. And I found that it was possible to be _paid _to do a PhD.

I undertook a PhD because I thought it was the best way of trying to gain a very, very deep understanding of something that seemed to me to be profoundly harmful, and wrong. And because I believed that doing a PhD might help change policy and practice, and lead to a few vulnerable people being fucked over a little bit less.

tbf, I was probably over-optimistic on the 'changing things' front. But I'm pretty sure I've got world-leading knowledge about the things that originally caused me great concern. Insofar as that's any use to anyone


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## Kuso (Feb 4, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> tbf, I was probably over-optimistic on the 'changing things' front. But I'm pretty sure I've got world-leading knowledge about the things that originally caused me great concern. Insofar as that's any use to anyone


 
Ha, too true! I set out thinking I'd cure cancer


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## aqua (Feb 6, 2013)

One data set primed and ready  one copy taken

one methodology section about to be started

bored


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2013)

aqua said:


> One data set primed and ready  one copy taken
> 
> one methodology section about to be started
> 
> bored


Yay! Fabulous


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## mrs quoad (Feb 8, 2013)

One paragraph left to write on the corrections to my corrections...

tbf, I could probably do with cutting down one section a bit. A fair bit 

But the main reason I'd avoided it - and it'd subsequently become an amendment instead of the main body of my text - was that I couldn't conceive of a way of putting it in that didn't require a fuckton of work. So I've now done that work. And am not sure how easy / possible it is to make it shorter 

Next steps: run it past my examiners, see if the final final version is acceptable to them... (And do the 12ish required spelling corrections. And rejig the index and all the bloody footnotes!)


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## mrs quoad (Feb 8, 2013)

RIGHT. I've forwarded my amendments to one of my examiners for approval (or otherwise). After that, it's all effectively approved, and mostly just needs page numbers / footnotes tidying. I *hope* that's less than a half-day job.


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## aqua (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm so happy I don't use footnotes  they always seem to have a life of their own to me


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## barney_pig (Feb 11, 2013)

My professor has agreed to be my supervisor for my phd. Now all I need to do is get my proposal laid out and submitted and see if I can get funding...


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## mk12 (Feb 11, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> My professor has agreed to be my supervisor for my phd. Now all I need to do is get my proposal laid out and submitted and see if I can get funding...


 
Congratulations! Funding is a bugger though. What is the area you're focusing on? I might be able to help...

[I don't mean I could fund you, I mean I might know some good places to look fo funding!]


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## gamma globulins (Feb 11, 2013)

aqua said:


> ...if I wasn't so stubborn I would have quit by now!


 
I reckon this is probably the secret to getting a PhD. If you're stubborn enough you will ride it out.



Kuso said:


> Ha, too true! I set out thinking I'd cure cancer


 
Yeah, didn't we all. It's funny, this novice's view that you can outperform a world full of specialists and do what they've all failed to achieve, often with much more funding/manpower than is available to you. Nice to dream though.

Good luck Barney and I hope it's all accepted Mrs Quoad!


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## barney_pig (Feb 11, 2013)

mk12 said:


> Congratulations! Funding is a bugger though. What is the area you're focusing on? I might be able to help...
> 
> [I don't mean I could fund you, I mean I might know some good places to look fo funding!]


My title is "Saul, David and Solomon as narrative structures for the careers of kings in post conquest historical writing"
Which, if you are an historian of 12th century Anglo Norman society, is well exciting! My university has just announced a new programme providing fees funding for local students, and this is what I am going for, the current foo far over Richard III has opened the possibility of new interest in Henry I and maybe money coming from that angle. There is a study going on into 12th century history writing with fully funded mphils but these are in Dublin.


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## mk12 (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh cool. Have you looked at the Grants Register?


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## mrs quoad (Feb 16, 2013)

Corrections approved by half of my markers.

Woo.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 18, 2013)

Right.

I've inserted all my corrections, amended bibliographies and contents pages, and've secured a soft-binding spot for tomorrow morning.

I ran out of printer paper after printing out the full thesis and title page - only the preliminaries (all 14 pages of them ) to go.

There's still the 'approval of corrections' and hard binding stage after this. But, tbh, it's getting there.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 19, 2013)

No-one seems to know what to do with a corrected thesis 

My supervisor doesn't know. The letter that were sent along with my examiners' reports states that I need to take a soft-bound copy along with a list of corrections to the Board of Graduate Studies. The 'notes on making corrections to dissertations' that was sent along with my examiners' reports states that I need to take a soft-bound copy along with a list of corrections to the Board of Graduate Studies.

I've just taken a soft-bound copy along with a list of corrections along to the Board of Graduate Studies, and they've said "what? Noooo. We won't accept that! The next thing we should see from you is a hard-bound copy, after your corrections have been approved by your examiners."

Properly, the fuck?


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## mrs quoad (Feb 19, 2013)

Jesus suffering fuck. No, a soft-bound copy with a list of corrections _should indeed _be taken to the office that I took a soft-bound copy to, with a list of corrections.

I swear Cambridge's administrative system hasn't been updated in the last 800 years!


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## toggle (Feb 19, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> My professor has agreed to be my supervisor for my phd. Now all I need to do is get my proposal laid out and submitted and see if I can get funding...


 
fantastic. it's the funding battle that worries me the most. The bloke that I want as my supervisor sort of agreed to be when i visited him in hospital before chrimble. i've got 3 or 4 potential ideas that I'll throw at him at some point. he's being a sort of informal mentor on my masters, stopping me making any glaring mistakes. i'd be doing my masters with him, but the cornwall campus offers undergrad, phd, but no masters anymore. so i got stuck at plymouth for 2 years. i like my current supervisor, but he's not the expert in cornish history.


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2013)

Anyway, throwing this in here cause it fits better than in the essay thread.

I need to write a project proposal, for the project I've already started writing. i've got samples, only we got the talks on this at a faculty level, so the examples are from architecture research. I'm doing history.and i really can't quite work out what they are doing and how to fit what i'm planning to do into that kind of format, if that exact format is even appropriate for what ni'm doing. and my tutor is away for another week.

I'm going to be heading mainly into archives and newspapers. with some published diaries thrown in.I have a main question I want an answer to. I can already say what the answer isn't. i can throw out a half dozen possible answers as to what it is, with varying degrees of speculation.

i think i need to focus on saying what is accessible. and why i might reasonably expect those sources to give me an answer to that question.

then write a schedule of archive visits and other research that looks vaugely reasonable.

can anyone tell me if i'm on the right track here to start, and i can then get something together that i can go through with tutor in the few days between him gettiung back and the due date.


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## Lo Siento. (Feb 26, 2013)

toggle said:


> Anyway, throwing this in here cause it fits better than in the essay thread.
> 
> I need to write a project proposal, for the project I've already started writing. i've got samples, only we got the talks on this at a faculty level, so the examples are from architecture research. I'm doing history.and i really can't quite work out what they are doing and how to fit what i'm planning to do into that kind of format, if that exact format is even appropriate for what ni'm doing. and my tutor is away for another week.
> 
> ...


Which funding board is it? Or is it an internal competition?


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Which funding board is it? Or is it an internal competition?


 
it's internal. i'm paying for my own Mres atm. i just put it here, cause it seemed to fit better than in the essay thread.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 26, 2013)

What length?

Looked at any examples?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 26, 2013)

toggle said:


> it's internal. i'm paying for my own Mres atm. i just put it here, cause it seemed to fit better than in the essay thread.


how many words? Mine was 500 words - and it was basically a couple of paragraphs explaining what the project was and why it was important, a couple of paragraphs outlined available sources and how I was going to use them, and a final section talking about the appropriacy of the institutions and my supervisor


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> What length?
> 
> Looked at any examples?


 
the example is about 2k words, not including schedule of work or biblio, that is on 'the transition from space to place in superpostmodernity'. I don't know enough about what eh's doing to actually know which bits are discussing any actual research. I think it's a practice as research thing, but I'm not even certain of that. I do know it bears approximately fuck all relation to what i'm doing.



Lo Siento. said:


> couple of paragraphs explaining what the project was and why it was important, a couple of paragraphs outlined available sources and how I was going to use them,


 
so something like:

Here is the gap.

this is why it would be interesting to fill it.

I've chosen to look at this mainly through examination of one particualr MP, cause his SIL put all his papers into LSE archives and that's what i can get my mits on. i think that the decisions of a small number of individuals were key and he was the most influential of these individuals

I can also look at the regional picture through local and national newspapers.

plus several smaller document collections.

plus comparison to the existing secondary sources in 2 other areas chosen because one is the closest urban area and the other was also an area dominated by individual political choices, giving a similar result.


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2013)

at least i've got a start point that i can understand now.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm looking through my 2k proposal ATM. 

It basically involved an intro, brief lit review, "original contribution" / adding to existing knowledge, methodology (including data sources, access, analysis, limitations), overview of why I'm the fucking daddy (well, relevant research skills, origins of the project, previous academic / professional experience). 

And a Gantt chart with a plan of work. 

v2 started with a quotation, followed by a one-sentence research question / intro, then a rationale, expansion of subsidiary / additional research Qs, methodology, access requirements, sampling, ethics, limitations, manageability, and that Gantt chart. 

I've got a couple of others, but they're variations on those themes!


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2013)

thanks quoad.

I'll need to discuss 'sampling' at some point. I think I can be saying I'm scanning what i've got time to look at and using what is interesting and relavent.

and definately a note on limitations, cause I'm limited in what i can look at, cause that's the docs that still exist.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 26, 2013)

So you're intending to comprehensively / fully sample all relevant and available data, as identified by exhaustive searches of relevant academic databases, and by reference mining relevant resources. (And by whatever other means!)


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm limited by what collections have survived and what local families are cooperative.and I already have well over 95% of the answers to that. I'm not holding my breath for any supprises.

but i know for example that if i worked at it full time, that i could go through all the local newspapers in about 3 weeks and read all the articles that cover this issue.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 27, 2013)

toggle said:


> I'm limited by what collections have survived and what local families are cooperative.and I already have well over 95% of the answers to that. I'm not holding my breath for any supprises.
> 
> but i know for example that if i worked at it full time, that i could go through all the local newspapers in about 3 weeks and read all the articles that cover this issue.


Yes. That isn't necessarily a limitation of your research methodology, though. It's a limitation of the available evidence. That can be spun as a strength, if you're so inclined (and cautious about how you phrase it).

It might be worth addressing that in a separate section - sort of the inverse of what I was trying to do with 'manageability' (only that was justifying my claim that my proposal was viable _within _3yrs and 100k words, not that it could probably get _up to _3yrs and 100,000 words).

If you've already accessed all available evidence, what are you adding? What are you adding that justifies a full three years of PhD? Is your research question big enough? (tbh, research questions usually turn out to be far bigger than they initially look).

What are your data sources, and how expandable are they? Like, fcknell, if you got, say, 30-50 hours of interview transcripts from cooperative local families (not sure how much you want to focus on oral history / that kinda line) then you'd already be looking at a very viable evidence base for a PhD - within qualitative criminology, at least. (I've been told that mine is *very* labour intensive / even OTT because I secured approx. 80 interviews and conducted about 6 months of participant observation. 30-50 seems to be pretty mainstream within my dept.)

If your current research question isn't 'big enough' for a PhD, how can you fill that out? What other contemporary things, or strands of evidence, can you look at? When I started my PhD, there'd been two - arguably three - papers published on the initiative I was interested in. One of those had lost Home Office sponsorship because it was methodologically bankrupt. A second was published because it was methodologically bankrupt, but showed what the HO wanted to find. The third was only relevant to a very small fraction of the agency I'm interested in - like, about 6,000 out of 100,000 contacts / referrals per year. I've still got an, off the top of my head, 30-40 page bibliography capping off my thesis.

e2a: and if you think / believe you already know it all, and have accessed it all, then is it really appropriate for a PhD? What will change and develop over the course of the next 3yrs? What is it that you want to be doing? If you're in a position to begin writing up *already* then IMO that... needs looking at. Because there's a very real risk that someone might ask why you want to do a PhD (which is all about the learning process of 'proving' yourself as a researcher by designing, conducting and completing a 3ish year research project) if you've already done all the work, already know what you need to know, and already know what you're going to conclude. IYSWIM.


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## toggle (Feb 27, 2013)

hugs quoad.

I'm going to go write what i need to write rather than a long reply, but thankyou, thanklyou, thankyou


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## toggle (Mar 16, 2013)

Right,


mrs quoad said:


> . IYSWIM.


 
Apparently I did. Got the pass on the Mres proposal, with only 2 points the marker wanted to query.the major one being i hadn't spelled out the full chapter structure. mainly cause i didn't want to do so that early, but i'll bullshit something next time and then ignore it later.

i'm now writing up for the proper one.

thankyou


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## nino_savatte (Mar 16, 2013)

I have my annual review and upgrade next Monday. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Kuso (Mar 16, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> I have my annual review and upgrade next Monday. Fingers crossed.


 
just finished my third year progress review thing, was a total waste of time tbh


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## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2013)

Kuso said:


> just finished my third year progress review thing, was a total waste of time tbh


How come?

My supervisor was very disconnected from what I was doing. He told me at some point in my 3rd year that I wouldn't be done for FIVE years, that I wasn't making enough progress. It was only when I gave him the drafts of my first three chapters that he started understand I wasn't a lazy slacker, and that he understood that I looked at four separate models in Chapter 3, not one as he had thought. 

He once had me waste a whole month trying to get a mathematical technique to work, when he'd recommended the wrong technique to me.


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## Kuso (Mar 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> How come?
> 
> My supervisor was very disconnected from what I was doing. He told me at some point in my 3rd year that I wouldn't be done for FIVE years, that I wasn't making enough progress. It was only when I gave him the drafts of my first three chapters that he started understand I wasn't a lazy slacker, and that he understood that I looked at four separate models in Chapter 3, not one as he had thought.
> 
> He once had me waste a whole month trying to get a mathematical technique to work, when he'd recommended the wrong technique to me.


 
In that I'd spent absolutely AGES writing the report for, doing a ton of reading, proper planning n that, only to go into a meeting with people who obviously hadn't read beyond the abstract and the only questions were "so, how you getting on?", "planning to finish in September?" "right, that's ok, bye"

time that woulda been MUCH better spent in the lab


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2013)

Kuso said:


> In that I'd spent absolutely AGES writing the report for, doing a ton of reading, proper planning n that, only to go into a meeting with people who obviously hadn't read beyond the abstract and the only questions were "so, how you getting on?", "planning to finish in September?" "right, that's ok, bye"
> 
> time that woulda been MUCH better spent in the lab


That is extremely annoying. They could at least have made an effort to read your report.

Hopefully there's no more hoop jumping for you.


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## Kuso (Mar 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> That is extremely annoying. They could at least have made an effort to read your report.
> 
> Hopefully there's no more hoop jumping for you.


 
I can kinda see it from their point- the supervisors in the research group didn't want these introduced either but it came from the uni.  They said they'd barely any time as it was without taking two days out to sit on panels n read reports n that.  And that was just just third year ones, there's second year ones too now, not to mention the usual first year differentiations,  still over now, no more of that til my viva


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## mrs quoad (Mar 19, 2013)

Fucking passed. Get in. 

The battle is over AND the war is bloody well won.


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## moonsi til (Mar 19, 2013)

dr quoad..


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## toggle (Mar 19, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Fucking passed. Get in.
> 
> The battle is over AND the war is bloody well won.


 
congratz


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## sorearm (Mar 24, 2013)

well played Dr quoad


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## mrs quoad (Mar 24, 2013)

Quoted £144 for 7 printouts (c.380 pages, 10 of them colour.)

Thought I could do it cheaper myself. So far, half-reams of Tesco finest 100gsm (c.1.5 per printout @ £3.75 per half ream) and less than half a cartridge (£18) per printout from my lovely desktop. So about £13 set against £20, though admittedly I haven't factored in the colour yet (£20 tri-tone cart arriving this week. I'll see how far it goes, but tbh some bound copies can be b&w throughout).


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## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Quoted £144 for 7 printouts (c.380 pages, 10 of them colour.)
> 
> Thought I could do it cheaper myself. So far, half-reams of Tesco finest 100gsm (c.1.5 per printout @ £3.75 per half ream) and less than half a cartridge (£18) per printout from my lovely desktop. So about £13 set against £20, though admittedly I haven't factored in the colour yet (£20 tri-tone cart arriving this week. I'll see how far it goes, but tbh some bound copies can be b&w throughout).


I printed mine out myself and a mate oversaw the binding (my uni didn't have a binder since the last one retired so had to be done at another university) and collected it. It is awesome getting the bound copy 

Congratulations Dr mrs quoad, I could not be prouder of you


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## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2013)

I am about to start proof reading for someone at work, who has just finished his write-up.


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## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, the annual review went ok but I didn't have all the documents ready for the transfer. That is now taking place sometime next month. I really hate bureaucracy.


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## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2013)

Kuso said:


> just finished my third year progress review thing, was a total waste of time tbh


They can be mind-numbingly dull exercises in bureaucracy. I don't know how other universities work, but mine loves its red tape and flaming hoops.


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## Lo Siento. (Mar 26, 2013)

Update: I've just started writing up my "sort-of chapter 3" mini-thesis (the final product is going to be organised thematically, but the initial research has to be organised by different archival material, so I'm having to produce a series of mini-theses in sections to reintegrate at the end). About 2,000 words in, but it's a boring bit (the changing structure of the car industry!), so a bit of a slog...


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## toggle (Apr 28, 2013)

is it going to be fundamentally bad etiquette to submit the same abstract for 2 different conferences a few weeks apart? One is for a conference at the uni I'm at, the other is for the uni i want to do my phd at. my research fits well into both and apart from a day off work if I'm working then, there's no real costs to doing both and feedback is always useful I think. unlikely that more than 2 (if any) people would be at both.

and how much is too much? I'm putting together my undergrad thesis as an article for a very minor journal. working on a paper for a conference in 6 weeks for the public history program of uni i want to do my phd at, running social media and some workshops for a local history group, plus these 2 planned conferences. does there come a point where i'm trying to 'engage' too much? I've got the time atm, I'm part time Mres, and I can only find 12-15 hours paid work a week so I was using my spare time while I've got it. but where do i move from keen to looking like i'm a serious obsessive? and is that a bad thing?


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## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2013)

toggle said:


> is it going to be fundamentally bad etiquette to submit the same abstract for 2 different conferences a few weeks apart? One is for a conference at the uni I'm at, the other is for the uni i want to do my phd at. my research fits well into both and apart from a day off work if I'm working then, there's no real costs to doing both and feedback is always useful I think. unlikely that more than 2 (if any) people would be at both.


I wouldn't have thought so. I mean, you don't want to make too much work for yourself. I've used the same abstract for a forthcoming conference that I used last year.


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## Lo Siento. (Apr 29, 2013)

3rd chapter discussion seems to have just completely changed my project  Basically, it confirmed that a 100,000 document isn't enough to write a history of post-war labour militancy to anywhere near the degree of detail that I wanted to do it, which all the actual content I was interested in was going to disappear - so now it's been reduced to a history of British car workers, which I hope makes the cut. I'm gonna do the research into every else, and then include them in the book...

On the bright side, it's now a realistic project that can be finished within the 3 years, and give me plenty of time to create the oral history archive that I'm interested in. Oh, and I'm now working on a couple of interesting papers for the Summer


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## nino_savatte (Apr 30, 2013)

I had my MPhil to PhD transfer meeting this afternoon and I passed. Now to write up.


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## Kuso (Apr 30, 2013)

toggle said:


> is it going to be fundamentally bad etiquette to submit the same abstract for 2 different conferences a few weeks apart? One is for a conference at the uni I'm at, the other is for the uni i want to do my phd at. my research fits well into both and apart from a day off work if I'm working then, there's no real costs to doing both and feedback is always useful I think. unlikely that more than 2 (if any) people would be at both.


 
not at all, seen two people (including my second supervisor) use the same abstract AND poster for three different conferences in the space of about as many weeks very recently.  different conferences, different audiences, why does your work need to be different?


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## Kuso (Apr 30, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> I had my MPhil to PhD transfer meeting this afternoon and I passed. Now to write up.


 
that time of year I suppose, few people in the lab going through this atm.  congrats!

i cannot wait until tomorrow is over, after that I have no more teaching/ demonstrating/ supervising projects/ conferences/ research cluster gash and can just get on with my own stuff.

waste of time this presentation tomorrow- supposed to be in the name of collaboration, but I'm going to be presenting to people who have already not let me use equipment or whatever in their lab , hate the politics of this place sometime.

i couldn't give a fuck about it, but doing a shoddy version will reflect badly on my supervisor and he's been great with me, so...


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## toggle (Apr 30, 2013)

Kuso said:


> not at all, seen two people (including my second supervisor) use the same abstract AND poster for three different conferences in the space of about as many weeks very recently. different conferences, different audiences, why does your work need to be different?


there will be a point to a rewrite of some of the paper, diff audience, diff focus.

but thanks.


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## Kuso (Apr 30, 2013)

toggle said:


> there will be a point to a rewrite of some of the paper, diff audience, diff focus.
> 
> but thanks.


 
yeah, I can imagine needing to maybe put a slightly different slant on things or to highlight certain aspects for different conferences/ audiences.  But I don't think you've anything to worry about using the same body of work or even massive chunks of the same text etc.  enjoy your couple of conferences anyway!


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## toggle (Apr 30, 2013)

Kuso said:


> yeah, I can imagine needing to maybe put a slightly different slant on things or to highlight certain aspects for different conferences/ audiences. But I don't think you've anything to worry about using the same body of work or even massive chunks of the same text etc. enjoy your couple of conferences anyway!


 
i will.

I do have backup from a supervisor, but i see him once every 2 months or so, cause he's on sabbatical atm and i live 60 miles from uni. and a lot of the faculty professional development stuff we did was assuming we wouldn't be hitting this side of things much until phd so could be told about it all then. we got to sit through painfully boring lectures that taught me how to fill in approval forms that I'd learnt how to do in my first year from a woman who seemed determined to get the least interested students up the front of the room and do yoga on the front desk while wearing a short skirt.

so i either wait ages and dither, or i'm asking here.


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## toggle (May 11, 2013)

fuck.

got to do the skills analysis thing for my critical journal.i can write reflective bollocks and do well in it, but this is beyond me

suggestion was the vitae template.i'm getting massively stuck on what goes in which box and what is evidence of what. i know there are bits i can leave out, cause they don't fit my field, but gah. this sucks.


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## Lo Siento. (Jul 16, 2013)

rewriting my 3rd chapter, and I just got permission come through from the University to do my oral history interviews (with people who worked in the car industry 1945-79), plan is to do as many as possible then leave the tapes and transcripts at the Bishopsgate Institute. Incidentally if anyone is, or knows potential interviewees let me know, I'd love to speak to you/them


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## Jeff Robinson (Sep 19, 2013)

Speaking as PhD student, if there's one person I hate, it's former SWPer Richard Seymour. He appears to have his fith book coming out this winter:

http://www.leninology.com/2013/09/against-austerity.html

During the course of his PhD he's written five books _on the side _as well as publish an array of journal articles and op-ed pieces in national titles. Most PhD students get 1 or perhaps 2 journal articles published during the course of their studies at best. Where the hell does he find the time to write five fucking books as well as blog, speak at international conferences, do interviews and the like  (I mean, I know he's been at his PhD quite a bit now - 6 or 7 years perhaps? - but even so it's a pretty prodigious output isn't it).


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## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2013)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Speaking as PhD student, if there's one person I hate, it's former SWPer Richard Seymour. He appears to have his fith book coming out this winter:
> 
> http://www.leninology.com/2013/09/against-austerity.html
> 
> During the course of his PhD he's written five books _on the side _as well as publish an array of journal articles and op-ed pieces in national titles. Most PhD students get 1 or perhaps 2 journal articles published during the course of their studies at best. Where the hell does he find the time to write five fucking books as well as blog, speak at international conferences, do interviews and the like  (I mean, I know he's been at his PhD quite a bit now - 6 or 7 years perhaps? - but even so it's a pretty prodigious output isn't it).



He's only doing the non-PhD stuff, that's how. He might be registered as a PhD student but you know yourself that a PhD is 40-60 hours a week minimum. 

I got two papers published, fwiw.


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## aqua (Sep 19, 2013)

I got a paper published then stopped on my phd 

I totted up all my words this week, out of a max of 80,000 I have 16,400. I clearly waffle WAY too much  I'm only a third of the way through my lit review, actually not even that


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## Jeff Robinson (May 13, 2014)

Passed my viva with no corrections today. Feel both exhausted and very happy.


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## aqua (May 13, 2014)

No corrections is a bit impressive! Well done you!!


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Passed my viva with no corrections today. Feel both exhausted and very happy.


WOOHOO!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!


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## Jeff Robinson (May 13, 2014)

aqua said:


> No corrections is a bit impressive! Well done you!!



Thanks, there are definitely quite a few typos and footnote mistakes, but it seems that increasingly these aren't seen as important from the viva perspective, you're just expected to make appropriate corrections before you electronically upload the thing...


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## Roadkill (May 14, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Passed my viva with no corrections today. Feel both exhausted and very happy.



Congratulations!


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## nino_savatte (May 14, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Passed my viva with no corrections today. Feel both exhausted and very happy.


Wow! Well done.

I had my annual review last week and I've got another 18 months ahead of me.


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## Kuso (May 15, 2014)

I was supposed to submit last september... 

got to this september... doing this year with no funding so working days here n there when I can and trying to fit uni round it.  without a doubt this is the most difficult thing I've ever done.  cannot wait to finish it.  fair play to anyone that already has, I doff my cap to ye


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## PursuedByBears (May 18, 2014)

I'm coming to realise that in order to progress in my chosen career (HE administration) I need to (finally) commit to doing my PhD.


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## Pickman's model (May 18, 2014)

i've come to realise that to make myself truly unemployable i should commit to doing a phd. i'll be seeing a prospective supervisor in a couple of weeks


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## equationgirl (May 19, 2014)

PursuedByBears said:


> I'm coming to realise that in order to progress in my chosen career (HE administration) I need to (finally) commit to doing my PhD.


When I worked in HE admin, I found it was really noticeable the change in attitudes to staff with PhDs and to those without. It really shouldn't make a difference, but unfortunately there's always one academic who treats admin with barely-disguised contempt. Reminding that person that your qualifications are equal to theirs makes a PhD worthwhile in my experience. Best of luck.


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## equationgirl (May 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i've come to realise that to make myself truly unemployable i should commit to doing a phd. i'll be seeing a prospective supervisor in a couple of weeks


Will you go full time or part time, if you decide to do it?

You can still get a job with a PhD you know - to really make yourself unemployable your subject would have to be exceptionally specialist.


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## steeplejack (May 19, 2014)

I finished my Phd 15 years ago now, I still shudder sometimes at the memory of the difficult times- being hopelessly unable to do anything for 3 months, having to finish the bugger in an unfunded 4th year whilst doing a full time job.

It feels wonderful when you do finish though, and well worth the struggle it takes to get there, which you all will.

Writing up is painful, unpleasant and difficult. If I had my time over again I would have made more of an effort to define exactly what i was going to do and how. PhDs seems *so* professional now; the endless mission statements; the seminar papers; the regular reports; the part time teaching.

By comparison, my process seems antedeluvian; I was the last of the generations that could simply gather dust ina library for 3 years, become an expert in one aspect of thirty years of history, and write up. The academic equivalent of going off to explore the Congo in a Tiger Moth, with only a college scarf, a cricket jumper and a teddy bear for company, alongside 300 tins of bully beef.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 21, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Wow! Well done.
> 
> I had my annual review last week and I've got another 18 months ahead of me.



Cheers man, hang in there, it's all worth it when you get to the end.


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## aqua (Oct 7, 2014)

I'm still here, another break last xmas for personal reasons that lasted until Easter this year but have been on the case since. Trying to write up a methodology section when you made no notes makes for a total and utter lack of motivation. I NEED to get this done this week and my lit review restructured or I'm going to run out of time.

Come on aqua, fucking crack on will you


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## iamwithnail (Oct 7, 2014)

Things I've done to procastinate over the course of my PhD: 
Learn to program
Start a company. 
Have a child. 

:'(


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## aqua (Oct 7, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> Things I've done to procastinate over the course of my PhD:
> Learn to program
> Start a company.
> Have a child.
> ...


 life events since I started: Dads house flooded (2007), Dad diagnosed with rare dementia (aged 62), had child, expecting another, plus various other major life events. When I started I worked and had nothing else going on. I don't think my life could be more different now if I tried. Dad is in very late stages of his illness (but thankfully very well cared for so at least that's more settled) and I've had 2 x 1yr leave of absences in total. Fucking hell 

As for actual conscious procrastination things: learning to be a cake decorator, doing the kitchen/backyard/bathroom/loft/redecorated every room in the house, took up gardening, had children (it was ultimately my choice )

Studying parttime is bollocks


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## equationgirl (Oct 7, 2014)

PursuedByBears said:


> I'm coming to realise that in order to progress in my chosen career (HE administration) I need to (finally) commit to doing my PhD.


Unfortunately, it does make a massive difference when dealing with academics. They do take you more seriously once you have one. And even entry level positions expect you to have one which is a bit shitty, but that said it does help.

I worked in HE admin for a while (4 years in total, two jobs) on the research & commercialisation side of things. PM me if you have any questions.


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## smmudge (Oct 13, 2014)

The PhD admissions tutor is the same guy who supervised my masters diss and I really really need a ref from! (Don't have a whole bunch of options and he knows me well) I hope he can still do it, though he'll basically be writing a ref to himself?!?


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2014)

I've got my first journal article out! http://tcbh.oxfordjournals.org/cont...53.abstract?keytype=ref&ijkey=DIMsju2u0H1YYjW


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## purves grundy (Oct 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I've got my first journal article out! http://tcbh.oxfordjournals.org/cont...53.abstract?keytype=ref&ijkey=DIMsju2u0H1YYjW


Major congrats! looks really interesting read too.

Just finished a paper wth my co-supervisor, which was a welcome break from the PhD itself, but finding it hard to get back in the groove now.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I've got my first journal article out! http://tcbh.oxfordjournals.org/cont...53.abstract?keytype=ref&ijkey=DIMsju2u0H1YYjW



You must work next door to me (at least for the next three weeks when I'm moving.) Small world etc.


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2014)

purves grundy said:


> Major congrats! looks really interesting read too.
> 
> Just finished a paper wth my co-supervisor, which was a welcome break from the PhD itself, but finding it hard to get back in the groove now.


Thanks! Helped dispel a fair bit of my imposter syndrome...

Yeah, completing things is a massive productivity killer, isn't it?


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You must work next door to me (at least for the next three weeks when I'm moving.) Small world etc.


really? at UCL or at the Modern Record Centre (where the research mostly comes from...)?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> really? at UCL or at the Modern Record Centre (where the research mostly comes from...)?



UCL. I'm in STS at 22.


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## aqua (Oct 18, 2014)

Being 6 months pregnant and unable to sit at a desk is a bit of a motivation killer too


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> UCL. I'm in STS at 22.


Two doors down... If you see me, you should say hello! (I'm about 5'8", beard, longish hair. That probably doesn't narrow it down much in a history department mind...)


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## aqua (Oct 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> That probably doesn't narrow it down much in a history department mind...)


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## Jeff Robinson (May 8, 2015)

On an otherwise depressing day, this is a just wonderful story 



> Stewart’s dissertation, titled Indigenous Architecture through Indigenous Knowledge, eschews almost all punctuation. There are no periods, no commas, no semi-colons in the 52,438-word piece. Stewart concedes the odd question mark, and resorts to common English spelling, but he ignores most other conventions, including the dreaded upper case. His paper has no standard paragraphs. Its formatting seems all over the map.



http://www.vancouversun.com/life/st...tecture+dissertation+with/11037362/story.html


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## equationgirl (May 16, 2015)

Spent a bit of time talking to one of the PhD people today and helping them structure part of their write up.


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## iamwithnail (May 25, 2015)

8:30 on a bank holiday, writing the 'pivot' for my PhD fieldwork, and doing a peer review.  Living the dream.  Someone's, anyway. Probably not mine.


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## Lo Siento. (Jun 18, 2015)

Ten years after I came up with the idea for it, nine years after I started writing on the subject and three years, two hundred and sixty four days, and eight hours after I began the Ph.D. programme, I have *finally* submitted my doctoral thesis.


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## iamwithnail (Jun 18, 2015)

Nice, congratulations! 

On my previous post, I pulled myself together, told my supervisor that's what I was doing, set it up, and am running fieldwork now so have advanced about 90% since that last post, and he thinks it's all good.  Still not staying in academia.


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## Lo Siento. (Jun 18, 2015)

I'm going to have a crack at job hunting, but not really too bothered to be honest. The subject was billiant to study and you teach yourself so many skills putting a project like that together, so I wouldn't mind going back to my old job (TEFLing) and just using all that to work on any stuff I want to do.


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## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2015)

Nice one Lo Siento.  well done


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## aqua (Jan 2, 2017)

Well I can't remember the last time I posted on here (and can't be arsed to check). But my hand in day is tomorrow and I need to just get all this out somewhere. Since I started I've had 2 children, my Dad diagnosed with alzheimers, lost a baby, had endless family related weirdness, worked full time and acquired a serious gin habit. But in spite of, or because of, all of that, I'm going to hand in.

I know it's not over. And it's far from great (I see a discussion chapter rewrite coming my way at least). But it's done.

What the FUCK do I do with myself now? Its been 10 years of my life (I had 3 full years leave of absence in there). Even when I've been avoiding doing anything (which has been a LOT of the time ) it's always been taking up head space.

Shit.


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## TikkiB (Jan 2, 2017)

Well done though.  Just doing an MA over 2 years nearly broke me and I wasn't having to deal with a fraction of the stuff you have.  Proper respect to you.


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## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2017)

aqua initial elation after submission can progress to a 'shit I have no purpose' slump. Most normal. It's amazing what you can find to fill your time though...


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## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2017)

And your discussion chapter is fine aqua


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## mango5 (Jan 2, 2017)

If anyone in London is up for some #shutupandwrite study buddy sessions I'd be pleased to set some up.


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## aqua (Jan 2, 2017)

mango5 said:


> If anyone in London is up for some #shutupandwrite study buddy sessions I'd be pleased to set some up.


Sorry I failed to do this. Sept to now has been so crap with personal stuff, dad stuff, family stuff not to mention work shit. I've basically turned into a total recluse


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## aqua (Jan 2, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> And your discussion chapter is fine aqua


Not enough implications stuff and a crap conclusion. Which is kind of fair enough tbh


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## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2017)

aqua said:


> Not enough implications stuff and a crap conclusion. Which is kind of fair enough tbh


Can you relate more of the conclusions to what support services could be offered, for example?


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## Hollis (Jan 2, 2017)

aqua said:


> What the FUCK do I do with myself now?



Another one surely?



The 10 Most educated people on the planet.


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## aqua (Jan 2, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Can you relate more of the conclusions to what support services could be offered, for example?


have tried,  its too late now though - bees is giving it one last read then I'm off to bed 
i


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## equationgirl (Jan 3, 2017)

Hurrah,  it's submission day today !! 





aqua said:


> have tried,  its too late now though - bees is giving it one last read then I'm off to bed
> i


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## mango5 (Jan 15, 2017)

Just finished the first draft of my second findings chapter (of three). Rewarding myself by making a pannetone bread and butter pudding.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2017)

Hollis said:


> Another one surely?
> 
> 
> 
> The 10 Most educated people on the planet.



Now these are my kind of people. Sadly I'm lagging quite some way behind with only 2 undergraduate degrees, 1 MRes, and an abandoned never-finished PhD. If it was possible to keep doing endless degrees I would. I love the process of learning at that level - not too difficult, once you've done one you're well suited to excel at another, and the opportunities for learning some seriously interesting stuff is huge.


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## mango5 (Mar 5, 2017)

Researchfish. Utter pile of shit.


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## mrs quoad (Mar 5, 2017)

IMO, it does kinda beg some questions if someone sticks at a specific level. And keeps on and on and on repeating the same kinda qualifications. 

I get the enjoyment of taught masters, in particular. But you've got to be very rich to keep on churning those out and, likewise, by the time you hit your third PhD, why are no funders willing to back your ideas? Sounds a bit like a cash cow for unis to milk naive, rich, and / or slightly questionable students.


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## gawkrodger (Mar 5, 2017)

completely - especially when, like your man above, they aren't a million miles apart - public admin., public health, financial engineerng, financial analysis etc - I'd be much more impressed if it was a mix of engineering, social sciences, hard sciences etc


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## Hollis (Mar 11, 2017)

mrs quoad said:


> View attachment 101586
> 
> IMO, it does kinda beg some questions if someone sticks at a specific level. And keeps on and on and on repeating the same kinda qualifications.
> 
> I get the enjoyment of taught masters, in particular. But you've got to be very rich to keep on churning those out and, likewise, by the time you hit your third PhD, why are no funders willing to back your ideas? Sounds a bit like a cash cow for unis to milk naive, rich, and / or slightly questionable students.



lol.  I'm on my third taught masters.  At one level, it you're happy so what?  At another level, compared to various other "hobbies" or social activities a part-time taught masters isn't necessarily _that_ expensive, for example it's probably cheaper than caining it at a squat party every weekend.

Also to your point I would question what you mean by "slightly questionable students"?

Having said all that, I swear I will not do another..


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## AllEternalsHeck (May 14, 2017)

I'm going to end up with two masters degrees.  Completed a standalone MSc, now have been accepted to a 1+3 PhD, where the first year is an MPH.

The fact I'm being paid a livable stipend to do the 1+3 means I am very happy to do another masters.  Can finally quit my part-time job yay.  May actually get a chance to enjoy the student life as I'd envisaged it this time (sitting around drinking coffee and reading research papers).  My first masters was just uni/placements/volunteering/paid work for a year with no downtime, so I'm very much looking forward to doing the MPH with no other responsibilities.


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## mango5 (May 15, 2017)

Nice one. I thought most funders wouldn't support a 3+1 for folk who already have a Master's degree. It's really handy for those  not in the system to hear about this stuff. There's loads I wish I'd known about beforehand.
Enjoy student life. At the end of my first PhD year my supervisor remarked 'you can't just spend your whole time reading interesting things'


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## AllEternalsHeck (May 15, 2017)

It's because the research methods training in my MSc didn't meet the standards required by the funding body (the MRC).  So they have actually made the MPH a requirement for going onto the PhD.  Can't say I blame them as the methods training was definitely a bit woolly.  I'd expected it to be a step up from undergrad but if anything it was more basic (went to a different uni, less rigorous overall was my impression).  

But yes, I was quite surprised since I'd assumed I'd be going straight into a 3 year PhD.  The whole application process is full of twists and turns, it's a real challenge just applying tbh.

Reading interesting things is definitely the most appealing part!  I'm quite nervous because my project requires some intensive ethnographic fieldwork, which is certainly more out of my comfort zone than reading and writing.  Very exciting challenges and adventures to come though!


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## AllEternalsHeck (May 15, 2017)

mango5 said:


> It's really handy for those  not in the system to hear about this stuff. There's loads I wish I'd known about beforehand.



One thing I found was that the support in applying for a PhD was pretty much non-existent from my university.  No guidance in navigating what is a very complex and challenging process.  I ended up getting a lot of support from a lecturer at my previous uni, about the different funding councils, helping me to refine a proposal etc.  Without her help I wouldn't have known where to start.


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## equationgirl (May 17, 2017)

AllEternalsHeck said:


> One thing I found was that the support in applying for a PhD was pretty much non-existent from my university.  No guidance in navigating what is a very complex and challenging process.  I ended up getting a lot of support from a lecturer at my previous uni, about the different funding councils, helping me to refine a proposal etc.  Without her help I wouldn't have known where to start.


Get a copy of 'how to get a PhD' by Phillips and pugh. It's really helpful.


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## AllEternalsHeck (May 17, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Get a copy of 'how to get a PhD' by Phillips and pugh. It's really helpful.



Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out.  It's funny that although I know what a PhD is about, I can't quite envisage what the day-to-day is going to look like.  E.g. was surprised to discover I'm expected to actually work from the research unit office a couple of days per week.


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## equationgirl (May 18, 2017)

AllEternalsHeck said:


> Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out.  It's funny that although I know what a PhD is about, I can't quite envisage what the day-to-day is going to look like.  E.g. was surprised to discover I'm expected to actually work from the research unit office a couple of days per week.


You will also be expected to have regular meetings with your supervisor, perhaps once a week depending on your subject. 

Sometimes unis try and hotdesk students but your fees entitle you (for the most part) to a desk and chair in an office with other students, a computer, library access and lab time, equipment and consumables. Check with your funder what they expect you to have if you are not sure. 

Best of luck.


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## AllEternalsHeck (May 18, 2017)

Having my own desk in an office will be pretty cool.  I did see the office when I went for my interview, it's a pretty big department, with a dedicated section of the office for the PhD students.


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## chilango (Nov 16, 2017)

Well, who'd have ever thought it? I'm actually thinking about doing a PhD!!!

I haven't even finished my Masters yet, but suddenly it seems to have "clicked". I get it. I'm excited about stuff. I know (roughly) what I want research. It falls within the research interests of the Uni I'm studying with. there's staff who (hopefully) could supervise.

I've a decent idea about what I need to do to going forward. It's early days. Much will depend upon how I find my Masters dissertation. 

My job is pretty fucked and will likely end in the next few months regardless. I'm struggling to find a new one. So nothing to lose on that side of things.

But, yeah, any tips? any thoughts? Not looking at starting till Autumn 2019.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 16, 2017)

chilango said:


> Well, who'd have ever thought it? I'm actually thinking about doing a PhD!!!
> 
> I haven't even finished my Masters yet, but suddenly it seems to have "clicked". I get it. I'm excited about stuff. I know (roughly) what I want research. It falls within the research interests of the Uni I'm studying with. there's staff who (hopefully) could supervise.
> 
> ...


Be prepared for a much harder slog. A Masters is easy compared to a PhD.

You may also find yourself doubting everything. It's also easy to let one's perfectionism take over. The idea is not to get the thesis perfect, but to get it done.

C'est tout.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

chilango said:


> Well, who'd have ever thought it? I'm actually thinking about doing a PhD!!!
> 
> I haven't even finished my Masters yet, but suddenly it seems to have "clicked". I get it. I'm excited about stuff. I know (roughly) what I want research. It falls within the research interests of the Uni I'm studying with. there's staff who (hopefully) could supervise.
> 
> ...


start reading now
keep your notes and research database electronic as much as possible
learn how to use some referencing software e.g. endnote, mendeley
look for a decent supervisor, who you will have to work with for a few years. check the research interests of the staff where you are - and also staff perhaps elsewhere
think about funding. birkbeck offers 10% off fees if you're a member of a union


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## chilango (Nov 16, 2017)

nino_savatte said:


> Be prepared for a much harder slog. A Masters is easy compared to a PhD.


The Masters is proving "light relief" from my increasingly shitty job (and job prospects) so *thumbs*.


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## iamwithnail (Nov 16, 2017)

In contrast, I'm in the last 5 weeks of my PhD.  I'm in the throes of 'fuck it, write some stuff, hand it in' now.  Final, non-negotiable deadline is 22nd December.  So finished by the 18th-19th so I can get it printed, realistically.  It's a pile of shite, I wish I'd never done it.


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## chilango (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> start reading now
> keep your notes and research database electronic as much as possible
> learn how to use some referencing software e.g. endnote, mendeley
> look for a decent supervisor, who you will have to work with for a few years. check the research interests of the staff where you are - and also staff perhaps elsewhere
> think about funding. birkbeck offers 10% off fees if you're a member of a union



Yeah, "on it" on all of those (except the referencing software as I've been working in Google Docs thus far).


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## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

chilango said:


> Yeah, "on it" on all of those (except the referencing software as I've been working in Google Docs thus far).


while you're about it you should be downloading articles you currently have access to, which may be useful in your preparation: and create a database of those (not access, but a list in excel so you can record what you have and where it is). think about how you're going to organise your files


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## chilango (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> while you're about it you should be downloading articles you currently have access to, which may be useful in your preparation: and create a database of those (not access, but a list in excel so you can record what you have and where it is). think about how you're going to organise your files



Good idea. ta.


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## Sunset Tree (Nov 16, 2017)

Tips: just focus on the application process for now.  Try to come up with a really strong research proposal.  My handy hint for this is to use google scholar to find papers relevant to your topic published within the past year.  Get a feel for what the cutting edge research in your field is exploring, what questions they are asking.  Then look at the 'limitations' section to see how further research could add the the field.  Even if you have a good topic in mind it's useful to see perhaps which methods you could use to explore new angles.

I told someone this method recently and they were loving it, so hopefully it helps you.


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## chilango (Nov 16, 2017)

...and I can test all this out with my dissertation too!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> Tips: just focus on the application process for now.  Try to come up with a really strong research proposal.  My handy hint for this is to use google scholar to find papers relevant to your topic published within the past year.  Get a feel for what the cutting edge research in your field is exploring, what questions they are asking.  Then look at the 'limitations' section to see how further research could add the the field.  Even if you have a good topic in mind it's useful to see perhaps which methods you could use to explore new angles.
> 
> I told someone this method recently and they were loving it, so hopefully it helps you.


there is no one working in the field i'm interested in. for which i'm grateful.


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## Sunset Tree (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> there is no one working in the field i'm interested in. for which i'm grateful.



Perfect for an original contribution to knowledge then!  

I found a whole load of research looking into the exact question I am asking.  The most recent was published literally this month.  And the limitations section sets it out perfectly: 'we've used cross-sectional quantitative, future research could use longitudinal qualitative', that sort of thing.  Made it so easy to design a proposal and say how my research addresses gaps in the literature.


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## aqua (Nov 16, 2017)

iamwithnail said:


> In contrast, I'm in the last 5 weeks of my PhD.  I'm in the throes of 'fuck it, write some stuff, hand it in' now.  Final, non-negotiable deadline is 22nd December.  So finished by the 18th-19th so I can get it printed, realistically.  It's a pile of shite, I wish I'd never done it.


liked because this was me exactly this time last year - got a 12months review and resubmit and am seriously considering just quitting  wish I'd never started too


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## iamwithnail (Nov 16, 2017)

Tbh, I think at this point I'm hoping they say 'here's an MPhil, now piss off', but I'd expect major corrections.  My fieldwork is incredibly weak


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## aqua (Nov 16, 2017)

iamwithnail said:


> Tbh, I think at this point I'm hoping they say 'here's an MPhil, now piss off', but I'd expect major corrections.  My fieldwork is incredibly weak


I'd take an mphil right this very second if they offered it. I asked my supervisor last week if I could ask for it and she told me to fuck off and get writing 

I have what seem like minor amends but really they're fucking massive  just thinking about it makes me cry


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## iamwithnail (Nov 16, 2017)

Solidarity like.


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## mango5 (Nov 16, 2017)

Hey aqua let me know if you fancy a chat some time.


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## equationgirl (Nov 16, 2017)

Sw


aqua said:


> I'd take an mphil right this very second if they offered it. I asked my supervisor last week if I could ask for it and she told me to fuck off and get writing
> 
> I have what seem like minor amends but really they're fucking massive  just thinking about it makes me cry


Sweetheart 

You can do this, you're nearly there (you too iamwithnail). You will regret it if you don't finish. 

Don't think about the whole thing. Do one chapter or even one section of one chapter to start with. The hardest bit is getting started.


----------



## aqua (Nov 16, 2017)

thanks all, tbh I don't want to talk about it atm - I've made another appt with my supervisor and I'll just go from there.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 16, 2017)

chilango said:


> Yeah, "on it" on all of those (except the referencing software as I've been working in Google Docs thus far).


PM's right make sure you get familiar with referencing software. Personally I'd also recommend that over the course of the PhD you become familiar with LaTeX, it'll be about a billion times easier to write your thesis using LaTeX rather than Word.

Also I disagree with the suggestion of Google Scholar, use Scopus and/or Web of Knowledge.

One thing to do is to get some info on how PhD supervision is done at the university you want to attend. For instance, can you have a single PhD supervisor or is it required to have at least two people on the supervision team (second is much preferred IMO). 

More generally I'd say a few issues that I've seen come up with most PhD students are
- overambition: lots of students put forward proposals/research questions that have a huge scope, basically they want to change the world. Three years may seem a long time but it will go past really fast once it's starts. Ambition is good but you need to be realistic.
- bad periods: be prepared to periods where you're un-motivated, or even feel like giving it up. It happens to pretty much everyone, and changes are you'll get through it.


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## chilango (Nov 17, 2017)

My lofty aspirations have been noted by some of my fellow students after I was spotted in a seminar about doing a PhD 

I've also booked in to speak to someone about it.

Cripes.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 17, 2017)

I've just about finished my minor/major (sic) revisions and I'm on the cusp of resubmitting my thesis.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 17, 2017)

Btw, JSTOR sucks. Google Scholar is pretty good though. UEL doesn't have institutional access to Cambridge University Press, so I had to go 'round the houses to obtain texts.


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## iamwithnail (Nov 17, 2017)

*dances in celebration for you*

Five weeks today.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2017)

nino_savatte said:


> Btw, JSTOR sucks. Google Scholar is pretty good though. UEL doesn't have institutional access to Cambridge University Press, so I had to go 'round the houses to obtain texts.


scholar's good if you know its limitations, e.g. the same search won't necessarily return the same results six months down the line, you can't save search results - databases can allow you to save marked records, scholar's maximum display is 1,000 results: even when it says it has 10,000 only the top 1000 can be viewed. scholar's good for a quick and dirty search to see if there is something but for a rigorous search jstor, pubmed, scopus, web of science win hands down every time.


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## Sunset Tree (Nov 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> scholar's good if you know its limitations, e.g. the same search won't necessarily return the same results six months down the line, you can't save search results - databases can allow you to save marked records, scholar's maximum display is 1,000 results: even when it says it has 10,000 only the top 1000 can be viewed. scholar's good for a quick and dirty search to see if there is something but for a rigorous search jstor, pubmed, scopus, world of science win hands down every time.



As someone who always uses scholar this is interesting and useful advice.  I had a look on world of science and found a couple of additional relevant papers straight away.


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## equationgirl (Nov 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> scholar's good if you know its limitations, e.g. the same search won't necessarily return the same results six months down the line, you can't save search results - databases can allow you to save marked records, scholar's maximum display is 1,000 results: even when it says it has 10,000 only the top 1000 can be viewed. scholar's good for a quick and dirty search to see if there is something but for a rigorous search jstor, pubmed, scopus, world of science win hands down every time.


I used pubmed extensively during mine, really good database for medical and biological information. 

I use science direct at work, and various patent databases (free and subscription). Lots of engineers think they can do patent searching because they use Google patent. Like scholar, it's adequate for quick and dirty searches, but has limited coverage (mainly us data) and there are better resources to use.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> scholar's good for a quick and dirty search to see if there is something but for a rigorous search jstor, pubmed, scopus, web of science win hands down every time.


Yep


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## iamwithnail (Nov 18, 2017)

I hate how finicky refworks is, but its the software we've got from the uni.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> scholar's good if you know its limitations, e.g. the same search won't necessarily return the same results six months down the line, you can't save search results - databases can allow you to save marked records, scholar's maximum display is 1,000 results: even when it says it has 10,000 only the top 1000 can be viewed. scholar's good for a quick and dirty search to see if there is something but for a rigorous search jstor, pubmed, scopus, web of science win hands down every time.


I found EBSCO quite useful, but I rarely found what I wanted on JSTOR.


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## Sunset Tree (Nov 20, 2017)

This is unrelated but I'm doing epidemiology and statistics this term and it's so different to what I'm used to.  I can feel how useful the knowledge is as I start to grasp it but it's quite hard.

Genuinely afraid I'll go into my exams and forget everything about odds ratios or whatever.


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## mango5 (Nov 20, 2017)

aqua said:


> thanks all, tbh I don't want to talk about it atm - I've made another appt with my supervisor and I'll just go from there.


Did you not recognise my thinly veiled attempt to get an opportunity to moan about my thing to you?


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 8, 2017)

Statistics exam done today.  Good sense of relief getting a tough exam out the way, I think I passed.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 8, 2017)

Next exam is epidemiology.

Also have to submit three pieces of coursework, a research proposal, and an ethics application by mid-January.  Will be busy over Christmas.


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## mango5 (Dec 9, 2017)

I had a 'contractual obligation' 15 minute phone call with supervisor last week. These happen about twice a year. I keep telling myself that neglect is liberating and implies trust. I am aiming to submit next summer, approx month 42. Next year is going to be a slog.


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## iamwithnail (Dec 9, 2017)

I feel similar.  It's not necessarily that empowering or inspiring though. 

Since I'm sitting writing up today and tomorrow, my external monitors have decided to not play ball, and i'm sitting doing it all on my laptop screen.  Great. 12 days left.


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## mango5 (Dec 9, 2017)

The neglect is shit but it's my normal now and not a battle I choose. I if didn't try to see a positive side I'd probably go postal. I want to save that energy for when I want to submit.

12 days, yikes. Stay strong.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 16, 2017)

I was speaking to another student whose funding ran out nearly a year ago, she only had a couple of weeks to submit.  She said she hated her PhD and it's the worst thing she's ever done.  Great motivational speech for the new guy!


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## iamwithnail (Dec 16, 2017)

3 days.  Goes to printers on Tuesday.  Handed in next Friday. Today, Sunday and Monday.  That's it.

Eta: I feel the other students' position.  I wish I'd never done mine.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2017)

I'm really looking forward to doing mine


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 16, 2017)

I'm enjoying mine thus far.  I can see the potential for stress down the line but I'm really happy with the research opportunity I have.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 16, 2017)

iamwithnail I liked that for the nearly handed in part, not the wishing you never did it.  It's great that you're nearly there.


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## equationgirl (Dec 16, 2017)

I was glad when it was finished. It was a chapter of my life I wanted to move on from. I never wished I hadn't done it but it was good to be done with it.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 16, 2017)

I can just imagine the relief.  Great achievement for all who have made it.


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## mango5 (Dec 18, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> I was speaking to another student whose funding ran out nearly a year ago, she only had a couple of weeks to submit.  She said she hated her PhD and it's the worst thing she's ever done.  Great motivational speech for the new guy!


This is commonplace. The PhD experience is a shitshow in very many places, in very many ways. There's a lot of needless human suffering.  I'm grateful and lucky to be doing mine, and I mostly enjoy it hugely.  But the motivational speeches are self serving bullshit. Take the warnings seriously.


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## iamwithnail (Dec 19, 2017)

Sent it to the printers, fuckit. It's not ok but i'm throwing it over the wall now.  (And a hundred quid on printing.  )


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## aqua (Dec 19, 2017)

well done iamwithnail  as someone once said to me, it will NEVER be finished.


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## equationgirl (Dec 20, 2017)

iamwithnail said:


> Sent it to the printers, fuckit. It's not ok but i'm throwing it over the wall now.  (And a hundred quid on printing.  )


The printing costs always annoyed me, it's the one thing the universities should assist with given that pretty much everyone is beyond broke at this point. The university stipulates how many copies should be submitted, they should help pay for them.


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## equationgirl (Dec 20, 2017)

iamwithnail said:


> Sent it to the printers, fuckit. It's not ok but i'm throwing it over the wall now.  (And a hundred quid on printing.  )


But that's brilliant news!! Well done you


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## equationgirl (Dec 20, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> I was speaking to another student whose funding ran out nearly a year ago, she only had a couple of weeks to submit.  She said she hated her PhD and it's the worst thing she's ever done.  Great motivational speech for the new guy!


From personal experience, the first year is great, it's all fun and new and exciting. It's common to hit a slump somewhere around the middle of the second year, which last anything from a few months to a year. Once you're through that, the end feels nearer and running out of money is a great motivator to finish. 

Some people do sail through,, most don't. It's a hard slog that eats your social life and you need to be aware of how hard it can be so that you are prepared for it if it happens to you.


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## iamwithnail (Dec 20, 2017)

Second year slump is definitely a thing.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 20, 2017)

There's a few areas where I've already seen the potential for frustrations.  Lack of organisation and communication within the department.  One person emails saying one thing, someone else emails saying another, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do or why they aren't communicating.

Just working out who was going to supervise my masters thesis was a hassle.  My PhD supervisor said somebody needs supervision experience so they can do it.  That person emailed me saying they think they'll be too busy.  Eventually it was decided she'd co-supervise with someone else but not be the lead supervisor.  Then a week later I'm getting emails naming her as lead supervisor again.

I also got an email from my supervisor asking why I haven't signed up for a class as so-and-so advised me to, as the class is rapidly filling up.  They hadn't told me to!  I was still waiting to hear confirmation if I was allowed to take this class.

Not quite as organised as I'd expected.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 20, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> From personal experience, the first year is great, it's all fun and new and exciting. It's common to hit a slump somewhere around the middle of the second year, which last anything from a few months to a year. Once you're through that, the end feels nearer and running out of money is a great motivator to finish.
> 
> Some people do sail through,, most don't. It's a hard slog that eats your social life and you need to be aware of how hard it can be so that you are prepared for it if it happens to you.





iamwithnail said:


> Second year slump is definitely a thing.



Second year is my data collection year, I'll be doing fieldwork, interviews and stuff like that.  I think that'll be the toughest year.  Hopefully I can throw myself into what I'm doing and it'll be good.


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## iamwithnail (Dec 23, 2017)

I had my first lie-in for about three months today.


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## mango5 (Dec 23, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> <snip>
> Not quite as organised as I'd expected.



This is the kind of thing you can never win, if you want to complete your PhD and retain good health and working relationships. Better to find friendly folk who are skilled  navigators in academia and local institutional bureaucracy, and take their advice.


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## mango5 (Dec 23, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> Second year is my data collection year, I'll be doing fieldwork, interviews and stuff like that.  I think that'll be the toughest year.  Hopefully I can throw myself into what I'm doing and it'll be good.


Second year was my best year. Data collection good but transcription is an arse.


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## iamwithnail (Dec 23, 2017)

Also, analysis is hard. Who knew?


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 23, 2017)

mango5 said:


> This is the kind of thing you can never win, if you want to complete your PhD and retain good health and working relationships. Better to find friendly folk who are skilled  navigators in academia and local institutional bureaucracy, and take their advice.



It was awkward because I didn't want to send my supervisor an email saying '[colleague] told me she's too busy for this, why are you still saying she'll supervise'?  It all seems to have panned out that she will supervise now and nobody is mentioning her reservations about it any more.  

Just chatting to other students and having a laugh about these things helps.  At the time it's totally stressful though.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 23, 2017)

mango5 said:


> Second year was my best year. Data collection good but transcription is an arse.



I fondly remember taking an entire week to transcribe 8 interviews for my first masters.  I had the bright idea of recording them on my phone, so the quality was awful.  The office was next to a train track and every time a train went past it drowned out the recording.  

I can't even imagine how long it is going to take to transcribe the amount of data required for a PhD.  I guess that's why you have a full year to analyse and write up!  I won't be recording on my phone though, that's for sure.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 23, 2017)

iamwithnail said:


> Also, analysis is hard. Who knew?



The whole thing is going to be hard, isn't it?  I spoke to another student in his final year, he said sometimes it feels like it's all coming together, sometimes it just makes no sense at all.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 23, 2017)

What type of subjects and research projects did you lot work on, if it's ok to ask?  Mine kind of falls between public health and sociology/anthropology.


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## iamwithnail (Dec 23, 2017)

From my own, perhaps unhelpful, perspective, I didn't find it hard, just a slog (so, more an endurance thing than that intellectually hard.)  I was doing a sociology/politics project looking at large scale public discourses around a topic.


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## equationgirl (Dec 24, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> What type of subjects and research projects did you lot work on, if it's ok to ask?  Mine kind of falls between public health and sociology/anthropology.


Mine was in applied mathematics, modelling what happens in normal and diabetic wounds, so that diabetic wound healing mechanisms could be better understood and more effective treatments developed. 

I get to use it at work sometimes, one of the engineers likes to think he's amazing at doing mathematical modelling yet when I review what he's done it's really flimsy. 

He hates getting my review comments back


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 24, 2017)

Sounds really interesting.  There are people in my department doing modelling stuff for public health, agent-based modelling.  I wouldn't have a clue, but find it all very impressive.


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## equationgirl (Dec 24, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> Sounds really interesting.  There are people in my department doing modelling stuff for public health, agent-based modelling.  I wouldn't have a clue, but find it all very impressive.


It's not real maths, just equations, and the answers were all real, whole, positive numbers (basically what primary school children first get taught), and the applied maths people were generally looked down on by the pure maths people for using actual numbers. So it sounds good but in maths terms it really isn't that fancy.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 25, 2017)

I'm a social science guy, anything maths is like black magic to me.  Your project sounds interesting and very useful, I hope it helped improve the lives of many diabetic people.

Hope everyone on the thread is having a good christmas, and those still studying are enjoying a bit of time off.  I am enjoying it but also nagging guilt that there's work I need to do by January.


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## equationgirl (Dec 25, 2017)

Sunset Tree said:


> I'm a social science guy, anything maths is like black magic to me.  Your project sounds interesting and very useful, I hope it helped improve the lives of many diabetic people.
> 
> Hope everyone on the thread is having a good christmas, and those still studying are enjoying a bit of time off.  I am enjoying it but also nagging guilt that there's work I need to do by January.


Not as many as hoped, the medics don't like non-medical people trying to do medical things. However, the results of my work were reviewed by two US companies in relation to their  products, which was nice.


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## mango5 (Jan 3, 2018)

I thought this was a good tale of PhD. life. YMMV of course but there are common themes here which I recognise from spending time with PhD students in 5 different (Russell Group) universities.  On being too much… (or how I got the PhD finished despite. it. all)


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## equationgirl (Jan 3, 2018)

mango5 said:


> I thought this was a good tale of PhD. life. YMMV of course but there are common themes here which I recognise from spending time with PhD students in 5 different (Russell Group) universities.  On being too much… (or how I got the PhD finished despite. it. all)


Not the first tale of having funding yanked I have heard (and completely unethical of the university not to offer her at least a fees-only scholarship to my mind, however, the university she mentioned has a less than stellar reputation in certain areas and that's fairly well known locally) but fair play to her for keeping going no matter what and getting her PhD completed. 

Thanks for the link mango 5.


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## Sunset Tree (Jan 3, 2018)

mango5 said:


> I thought this was a good tale of PhD. life. YMMV of course but there are common themes here which I recognise from spending time with PhD students in 5 different (Russell Group) universities.  On being too much… (or how I got the PhD finished despite. it. all)



That was a good read.  I'm a fan of Dr Jennifer Jones' writing, I follow her on twitter.  I did an MSc at her uni a couple of years ago, coincidentally.  

What gets me is the sheer length of the journey.  I started further education later than most, but I was still a bright-eyed enthusiastic 24-years old when I did my access course.  I will complete my PhD when I'm 36.  Everything is different after all that time.

Getting funding withdrawn is my biggest fear, I think.  I worry about it fairly frequently even though I'm funded by a research council so it's pretty secure.



equationgirl said:


> however, the university she mentioned has a less than stellar reputation in certain areas and that's fairly well known locally)



I went to UWS for a taught masters and would never study there again.  I was quite happy to go there, reputation isn't everything and they market themselves positively as a modern, vocational-focused institution: links with industry, employability etc.  However, my course in many ways was an absolute nightmare.  Very badly organised, some very unprofessional and demotivated lecturing staff.  

My MSc supervisor told me she'd get me funding to do a PhD.  She was really casual about it, like, 'we'll sit down in August, sort out some funding, and get you started in September'.  Then in August it turned out there was no funding available.  She told me it's because in management there is still a teaching-college attitude from before it converted to a uni.  Was a huge disappointment at the time.


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## mango5 (Jan 3, 2018)

I started my PhD age 41, about 15 years after doing my masters while working full time. I had ESRC funding and my supervisors have managed to string me out beyond the funding period and slightly stitched me up so I am self funding in this final year. They never offered any paid work. And have suggested that any work I do now may be subject to ESRC restrictions  It's a good thing I love what I do.

One thing I've learned about academia is it is rife with false promises/hopes and carrots being dangled in front of people who are expected to arrange their lives on the hope of research funding or employment.


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## Sunset Tree (Jan 3, 2018)

I always wonder about the paid work aspect.  In the US it seems like paid teaching is integral to a PhD.  Even here, when I was doing my undergrad, most of the seminars were taught by PhD students.  Nobody has mentioned teaching to me yet.

That sucks mango5.  You no longer receive ESRC funding but are still subject to ESRC restriction?  Is that the restriction on how many hours you can work elsewhere (6-hours per week for me)?


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## mango5 (Jan 3, 2018)

As far as I am concerned I am not subject to any restrictions aside from the need to pay my bills and submit asap (7 months I guess). I don't think my supervisors have a clue on the details  (although one is responsible for lots of institutional ESRC grants) they just want to be cautious in the face of their big funder.


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## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2018)

mango5 said:


> I started my PhD age 41, about 15 years after doing my masters while working full time. I had ESRC funding and my supervisors have managed to string me out beyond the funding period and slightly stitched me up so I am self funding in this final year. They never offered any paid work. And have suggested that any work I do now may be subject to ESRC restrictions  It's a good thing I love what I do.
> 
> One thing I've learned about academia is it is rife with false promises/hopes and carrots being dangled in front of people who are expected to arrange their lives on the hope of research funding or employment.


When I finished my PhD I was 32, and took the view that I had two choices - try for a postdoc and tenure track positions over the next 5-10 years, hoping that I managed to land a permanent role at the end of that time, or look for work in industry. 

I made the latter choice as it was increasingly obvious I didn't have the temperament for academia in my subject area plus my supervisor wouldn't support me for any positions at nearby universities including my own. 

He then didn't support me for other postdoc positions at other universities, and I basically felt it was pointless to try to continue in academia if he wasn't going to help. He'd already blown my chances of a medical engineering traineeship by including details of my medical condition  in the reference, meaning the interview panel made a big deal of it and made it clear I wasn't going to be successful. Which was nice. 

In my opinion and experience, whilst much is done to get PhD students in, with the huge amounts of carrot dangling (usually there us no actual carrot), many do not get the appropriate support during their time at uni. There has also not been the attendant growth in postdocs and lectureships.


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## Sunset Tree (Jan 4, 2018)

That is sobering information but I guess it is good for me to manage expectations.  Mind you, a PhD student in my department just finished their PhD and went straight into a research associate post in the department.  Gives me hope that opportunities are there.  In research at least.  I've heard lecturing positions are very difficult to get.

Sorry about that shit experience equationgirl, your supervisor sounds terrible.


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## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> That is sobering information but I guess it is good for me to manage expectations.  Mind you, a PhD student in my department just finished their PhD and went straight into a research associate post in the department.  Gives me hope that opportunities are there.  In research at least.  I've heard lecturing positions are very difficult to get.
> 
> Sorry about that shit experience equationgirl, your supervisor sounds terrible.


Ach, I didn't fit the traditional PhD student mould - he was only a few years older than me - so I don't think he knew what to do with me, to be honest. 

He was better than my first supervisor, who to this day I have no idea why he agreed to take me on because he was a notorious misogynist and xenophobic person. Anyway, he made my life hell for three years and refused to let me submit for a PhD only an MPhil. I wanted to make a complaint but was persuaded not to 'rock the boat' by the student advisor,  who I later found out didn't want any problems because he was in line to be head of department. 

Which was why I went back and did it for a second time, because I knew I could do it. And like Jennifer Jones says, the title of Dr is forever, indelible and it's non-gender which suits my feminist principles. 

You get a PhD for not giving up. Ever. 

I'm sure you'll be great, you have your eyes open and this thread to help support you.


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## aqua (Jan 4, 2018)

*looks in thread, cherry picks some motivational bits, gets back to corrections*

Fuck me this journey is shit


----------



## mango5 (Jan 4, 2018)

Yeah there's been a fair amount of "and the like" in recent posts. Correct away babe! My writing buddy is in a similar position. Was told to write a whole new chapter and reformat the whole thing according to a different discipline


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## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Yeah there's been a fair amount of "and the like" in recent posts. Correct away babe! My writing buddy is in a similar position. Was told to write a whole new chapter and reformat the whole thing according to a different discipline


A friend of mine had to do the same because he got a computer scientist as his external rather than a mechanical engineer. Caused him no end of grief but he did it and got the PhD. 

Externals have far too much opportunity to insert their own personal preferences into the process.


----------



## aqua (Jan 4, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> A friend of mine had to do the same because he got a computer scientist as his external rather than a mechanical engineer. Caused him no end of grief but he did it and got the PhD.
> 
> Externals have far too much opportunity to insert their own personal preferences into the process.


I simply could not agree with this more. I have to put something in that I don't think is relevant and I recently saw a new book from my external with pretty much word for word what she put on my summary report. Fucking pet subjects


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## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2018)

I think some external examiners lose sight of where their research ends and the candidate's begins. If the thesis meets the required standard, then the PhD should be awarded. The candidate's work is not there to reproduce the views of the external, especially if they are irrelevant.


----------



## Zorra (Jan 15, 2018)

aqua said:


> *looks in thread, cherry picks some motivational bits, gets back to corrections*
> 
> Fuck me this journey is shit



This. I'm submitting on Friday and I'm torn between being delighted and thinking that my whole thesis is a pile of shit. Ah well. Crack on!


----------



## iamwithnail (Jan 16, 2018)

You can think both!  I certainly did.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 16, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> That is sobering information but I guess it is good for me to manage expectations.  Mind you, a PhD student in my department just finished their PhD and went straight into a research associate post in the department.  Gives me hope that opportunities are there.  In research at least.  I've heard lecturing positions are very difficult to get.


Going to depend on the field, university etc but in general both in the UK and Australia you're typically looking at 100-200 applications for lecturer position in physical sciences.


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## mango5 (Jan 17, 2018)

Apparently the impression of PhD life I've been giving at home is working ludicrously hard to analyse/write a load of stuff, then chuck it all out and start again. Rinse and repeat. Somehow I don't mind this too much 
Job prospects-wise I've also learned to loathe what I call 'carrot dangling' and this blog calls 'cruel optimism'


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 17, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> That is sobering information but I guess it is good for me to manage expectations.  Mind you, a PhD student in my department just finished their PhD and went straight into a research associate post in the department.  Gives me hope that opportunities are there.  In research at least.  I've heard lecturing positions are very difficult to get.



Where I work (on the admin side) it's a narrower field than redsquirrel mentions so we wouldn't get hundreds of applications for a lecturer, but I have to say there's no way someone would go directly into a lecturer post here from a PhD. The thing is they're not really separate career paths - it's like anywhere, you go in at the entry level role and work your way up, and fixed term researcher roles are the entry level positions. Once you have that on your CV you can look at lecturer roles. It might be different elsewhere but I think that probably holds in most places tbh.


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## Sunset Tree (Jan 17, 2018)

That makes sense. My department has over 100 researchers but only a few are involved in any kind of lecturing. Was actually surprised just how many full time researchers are employed by the uni working away on projects in an office. Not how I pictured above academia somehow but I do like research.


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## mango5 (Jan 18, 2018)

Full time and permanent lecturer roles can be hard to get, as others have said dependent on field. One of my PhD buddies got one in criminology straight after graduation. 

Fractional and temporary junior contracts (associate/assistant lecturer) are more common. I know plenty of folk teaching on these with full responsibility for modules well before completing a PhD. And others who have been on these contracts for a decade or more.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Full time and permanent lecturer roles can be hard to get, as others have said dependent on field. One of my PhD buddies got one in criminology straight after graduation.
> 
> Fractional and temporary junior contracts (associate/assistant lecturer) are more common. I know plenty of folk teaching on these with full responsibility for modules well before completing a PhD. And others who have been on these contracts for a decade or more.


to be fair i was working in libraries for about 10 years before i got one full-time job (and i've still a fractional job on top of that). since 2007 i've had at least 2 and up to 4 jobs at any one time, so this sort of nonsense is spread across higher education.


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## iamwithnail (Jan 18, 2018)

My mate has a PhD in IR from Glasgow, and a postdoc from a top University in the US that he's just about to complete, and he's struggling to get a permanent lectureship.


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## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2018)

iamwithnail said:


> My mate has a PhD in IR from Glasgow, and a postdoc from a top University in the US that he's just about to complete, and he's struggling to get a permanent lectureship.


It's shit, isn't it? Sorry he's having such difficulty in securing a post. 

This situation is exactly why I went back into industry.


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## Hollis (Feb 12, 2018)

Read this on Twitter from an American historian.. seems relevant..

The Sublimated Grief of the Left Behind – Erin Bartram


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## equationgirl (Feb 13, 2018)

Hollis said:


> Read this on Twitter from an American historian.. seems relevant..
> 
> The Sublimated Grief of the Left Behind – Erin Bartram


Certainly there was stuff in the article that I related to, thanks for posting it. 

There was an article recently about the government funding more PhD places yet no mention of funding postdocs or lectureships. Then people wonder why PhDs don't always end up in academia.


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## kenny g (Feb 13, 2018)

Had a quick scan of the beginning of the article. I noticed the grieving process being mentioned but do people go through PTSD symptoms as well?


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## aqua (Feb 13, 2018)

my mental, and physical, health is shot to fuck atm


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## equationgirl (Feb 13, 2018)

kenny g said:


> Had a quick scan of the beginning of the article. I noticed the grieving process being mentioned but do people go through PTSD symptoms as well?


I find it difficult to be in situations that are similar to being with my supervisor. Not flashbacks as such.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 14, 2018)

Some prick has plagiarised my essay. Was looking forward to getting results tomorrow but one is being withheld due to similarities with another student.

They can't give any details on who it is but I know who my money is on. So-called friend who said he'd finished his own assignment but could he see mine to make sure he hadn't missed anything. Sais he was just dotting 'i's and crossing 't's and wanted to check he hadn't done anything majorly wrong. I thought he'd give it a quick skim not copy it.

I submitted my assignment two months before this happened and have evidence of him asking to see it and me sending it (WhatsApp chat).

I've been told informally not to worry as although it's wrong to show someone your work, it is not the same as committing plagiarism. Especially with evidence that he asked to see it months after I formally submitted. So I might get a warning for that but I have evidence that my work is original.

It was really awkward because he just approached me in class acting all cheerful and normal asking if I want a coffee. Got me doubting if it was even him, but there's no one else it could be. They can't tell me who it is and I don't want to mention it in the 1% chance I'm wrong. What if it's just a freak similarity to some other random student? I left quickly after class to avoid him.

Horrible situation which I know I am ultimately responsible for by not protecting my work.


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## mango5 (Feb 14, 2018)

That sounds rotten. What a headache . It's not wrong to show your work to other people. Glad you have evidence the work is yours. Defend yourself, don't blame yourself, and don't implicate anyone else unless asked.
You might want to have a word with the mate once things are resolved for you. Or just cut them off.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 14, 2018)

mango5 said:


> That sounds rotten. What a headache . It's not wrong to show your work to other people. Glad you have evidence the work is yours. Defend yourself, don't blame yourself, and don't implicate anyone else unless asked.
> You might want to have a word with the mate once things are resolved for you. Or just cut them off.



I am so worried that I've done something horribly wrong by sending someone my work. I have vague memories of being told if you enable someone to cheat you are equally responsible.

The faculty member I spoke to put me a bit more ease about that (as have you now).

Five weeks left of classes with this guy. Looking back now the red flags were there, he was struggling with the course. I needed to help him a fair bit with exam revision.

Example: three days before an exam I asked if he wanted to study. He said he'd done no studying at all, was deep in a stress meltdown, couldn't face looking at the work, had accepted he is going to fail. I convinced him to come to the library and face down the fear. We worked through the material together and he ended up quite confident.  It was around that time he asked to see my assignment. I should've realised that if he was melting down over the exam, there's a chance he's not done the assignment too.  Red flags that he was a bit unstable, had latched onto me a bit for support, rather than dealing with things himself.

I was advised to explain all of this contextual information if I'm called to an investigation.  The whole thing has caused me so much stress and made me so uncomfortable in class that I am starting to feel really angry, I don't care what happens to him.


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## mango5 (Feb 14, 2018)

There are weird stresses in the academic world. Many ludicrous examples of 'person vs bureaucracy'. Pick your battles. Keep your head high. Marathon not sprint .. etc etc


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## mango5 (Feb 14, 2018)

Let off steam here  keep it cool in the arena


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 14, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Let off steam here  keep it cool in the arena



Good advice.  I'm confident enough in my position that I think I'll be fairly calm.  Fuming on the inside though.  I don't get angry easily but it's the betrayal, the feeling of being used, the selfishness and laziness, the absolute stupidity in committing plagiarism this blatant.  I'm sure in over the years many a student has causally shared their work with a friend, it's no big deal unless the friend literally rips off the work.


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## mango5 (Feb 14, 2018)

Wait til your supervisor does it!


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 14, 2018)

They wouldn't dare! (would they?).


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## mango5 (Feb 14, 2018)

Easy to find such stories online. This is not really the thread for that unless it happens to someone here.


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## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2018)

It's not wrong to show someone your work, Sunset Tree, however I'd be wary of emailing electronic copies to others you did nothing wrong.


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## mango5 (Feb 15, 2018)

It's also very commonplace. I overheard a student in the library today bemoaning similar help given to a mate, "I didn't think he would use it word for word!".


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 16, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> It's not wrong to show someone your work, Sunset Tree, however I'd be wary of emailing electronic copies to others you did nothing wrong.



It's the electronic copy part where I really feel I messed up. 

For context, we were sitting in the computer lab when he asked if he could have a look.  I said sure OK.  He then asked if I could just drop it into our whatsapp chat so he could view it on his own screen.  

It's pretty common for us to share files back and forth like that for convenience.  So I didn't think much of it.  Somewhere at the back of my mind I felt a bit uncomfortable but he made it seem like this casual request.  



mango5 said:


> It's also very commonplace. I overheard a student in the library today bemoaning similar help given to a mate, "I didn't think he would use it word for word!".



This is one thing that has comforted me.  I'm sure the university senate have seen loads of cases like this.  I searched online and found a few similar cases on the student room forums, so it doesn't seem uncommon.  I need to keep remembering that it the plagiarism that is the real offence.  I have evidence that I didn't plagiarism so fundamentally it has to be OK for me.  I kind of hope the other guy gets punished really harshly, just for all the anxiety he's caused.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 16, 2018)

Also I got my other grades back today for last semester and they are decent - As and Bs with an A average.  I even got an A for the statistics class I was worried about because this course is more 'sciencey' than anything I've done before.  It's not directly related but I hope it provides an overall picture that I'm a competent student and helps my case.


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## equationgirl (Feb 16, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> It's the electronic copy part where I really feel I messed up.
> 
> For context, we were sitting in the computer lab when he asked if he could have a look.  I said sure OK.  He then asked if I could just drop it into our whatsapp chat so he could view it on his own screen.
> 
> ...


Make a pdf copy of any electronic file and share that instead. Harder to copy from, although not impossible, but if they won't put effort in to an essay I doubt they'll spend time trying to crack a pdf. The important thing is to learn from this, and be more wary next time.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 16, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Make a pdf copy of any electronic file and share that instead. Harder to copy from, although not impossible, but if they won't put effort in to an essay I doubt they'll spend time trying to crack a pdf. The important thing is to learn from this, and be more wary next time.



I won't be sharing any files with anyone from this point onwards!  Not worth it at all.  If someone is struggling with an essay they have other options.  They can speak to the lecturer, approach their advisor, ask for an extension, whatever.  It's not my job to put in the groundwork and let someone leech off it.  

Even the idea of helping someone get a slightly better grade than they would've otherwise is annoying me now.  I can say that my grades are a reflection of my work.  The guy probably still might've passed, but for some reason it was so important for him to check mine in case he'd missed a few marks.  Therefore, even if he hadn't plagiarised it, he's still using my effort to give his grade a leg up.  His grade wouldn't have been reflective of his true understanding of the material.

I tend to learn best from bad experiences, nobody is ever getting so much as a glance at my work ever again.


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## mango5 (Feb 17, 2018)

That's a shame. Sharing your best work with others can be one of the most interesting things about academia. If you are determined to stay in a bubble I assume you won't be presenting your work-in-progress at departmental seminars, conferences and the like? That's partly how good ideas are developed into great ones.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

mango5 said:


> That's a shame. Sharing your best work with others can be one of the most interesting things about academia. If you are determined to stay in a bubble I assume you won't be presenting your work-in-progress at departmental seminars, conferences and the like? That's partly how good ideas are developed into great ones.



No I don't mean not sharing my research at conferences.  I mean not letting other students see my graded coursework, giving the potential to copy it.  

Presenting at conferences is an obligation I have to fulfill, I wouldn't be able to dodge that if I wanted to.

Because I have the 1+3 funding I'm currently doing a taught masters before officially starting my PhD.  It's in this taught course that I've shared a piece of coursework and been plagiarised.  In my PhD I won't have classes or coursework, just my independent research, which I'll be happy to discuss and share the findings.  For the rest of this masters nobody is getting to see my coursework!

I've just spoken to the student who I suspected.  Turns out I was correct.  He is claiming he only asked to see it for structure/layout and didn't even read it.  He said he can't see any clear similarities.  Thinks it might just be because they are structured very similarly.  Apparently we also use all the same references too, which raises an eyebrow.  He understands that I've already told faculty that I sent him a copy of my work.  He thought that was totally fair as I need to protect myself.  He's a bit worried that it looks bad for him but is resolute that our answers are quite different.  I'm not sure what to make of that but feel the pressure is off me somewhat.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

I realise I wrote 'ever again' in my previous post but I was emotional about this so that was hyperbole.  There is a large cohort of PhD students in my department and people regularly share work for feedback, seek advice on methodological issues, etc.  I think that is healthy and something I'm keen to be a part of.


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## mango5 (Feb 18, 2018)

Fair enough, just be prepared for your ideas to sometimes be recycled or repurposed by other people just as you may well incorporate lines of thinking from others into your own work.  The protection around assessed work is strong while the protections around use of ideas (structures, methods etc) from ungraded work is quite weak, often little more than convention.

I'm presenting at a conference in a few months and they want the written papers a month ahead. They've not said anything but I think they intend to publish the material online, which does make me nervous just a few months short of my intention to submit.  I've avoided having my papers published in conference materials in the past, but the flip side of that is less visibility in the field. I don't think anyone cares if it's just your abstract that is listed - full papers attract both attention and risk.


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## purenarcotic (Feb 18, 2018)

Similar thing happened to a mate of mine - she sent her essay to a pal who had been given an extension due to home stuff going on. I had also been asked but had sent over some ideas and articles instead of the whole shebang. My mate got massively plagiarised, like huge chunks copied and pasted almost word for word. 

She had to go for a meeting but nothing happened, she said she wasn’t told off or anything because it wasn’t her fault for basically trying to be helpful. The pal did not too bad too - she was allowed to resubmit but could only get the minimum pass mark. Didn’t get kicked off the course or anything. 

Thing I found most sad was it ruined their friendship- they had been getting quite close really but haven’t spoken since this all happened (years ago).


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## aqua (Feb 18, 2018)

6 weeks to go here. In fact 5 weeks 5 days I think, but fucking hell, whatever it is isn't enough


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## aqua (Feb 18, 2018)

I'm really hoping the full strike goes ahead so I can use the extra days


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Fair enough, just be prepared for your ideas to sometimes be recycled or repurposed by other people just as you may well incorporate lines of thinking from others into your own work.  The protection around assessed work is strong while the protections around use of ideas (structures, methods etc) from ungraded work is quite weak, often little more than convention.
> 
> I'm presenting at a conference in a few months and they want the written papers a month ahead. They've not said anything but I think they intend to publish the material online, which does make me nervous just a few months short of my intention to submit.  I've avoided having my papers published in conference materials in the past, but the flip side of that is less visibility in the field. I don't think anyone cares if it's just your abstract that is listed - full papers attract both attention and risk.



Sounds like a total minefield.  Seems like this is where good supervision is essential, as they can ideally help navigate all these academic pitfalls.  



purenarcotic said:


> Similar thing happened to a mate of mine - she sent her essay to a pal who had been given an extension due to home stuff going on. I had also been asked but had sent over some ideas and articles instead of the whole shebang. My mate got massively plagiarised, like huge chunks copied and pasted almost word for word.
> 
> She had to go for a meeting but nothing happened, she said she wasn’t told off or anything because it wasn’t her fault for basically trying to be helpful. The pal did not too bad too - she was allowed to resubmit but could only get the minimum pass mark. Didn’t get kicked off the course or anything.
> 
> Thing I found most sad was it ruined their friendship- they had been getting quite close really but haven’t spoken since this all happened (years ago).



Re: friendship, yeah I was planning to distance myself as much as possible after this.  We'd become friends but this made me see him in a new light.

It is reassuring that nothing happened to your mate.  I think that will be the case for me too.  

Some other slightly dodgy points from our chat.  Although he first claimed not to have even read mine, he's now looked over both papers and said that the final two questions were quite similar.  Along with using all the same references it seems unlikely he literally didn't read mine.  He also said that the plagiarism check (urkund) picked up similarities when he first uploaded it, so he changed the wording of some stuff then resubmitted.  Very dodgy.

He's saying we should get our story straight so neither of us get in bother.  Well, I don't have anything to worry about so why should I need to have a story.  He's also asking if I can say I only sent him a copy the day before submission.  This is so he can prove he'd done most of it before he saw mine.  In fact, I sent him it a full month before the submission date, and he asked a second time the day before it was due.  So it would be a half truth at best.  I'm thinking from my POV just be totally honest about it as there's no benefit to me in withholding information to protect him.


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## equationgirl (Feb 20, 2018)

Sunset Tree just be honest about what you did. Lies will catch up with you, he is the one that plagiarised, not you.


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## Sunset Tree (Feb 20, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Sunset Tree just be honest about what you did. Lies will catch up with you, he is the one that plagiarised, not you.



Exactly yes!  I did him one favour by sending my work and look where that got me.  Now he wants more favours to protect him from punishment.  

He's now said he's found a document where he planned out the answers.  Dates back to November apparently.  He's going to present this as evidence he'd started working on it before he saw my version.

He's gone from saying he didn't read mine, to saying there are some similarities in structure, to saying the last two questions are 'quite similar'.  I don't see how his answer plan will explain how he's written it up with all these similarities.

He offered to send me his version so I can see for myself how the similarities aren't that bad.  I said I don't want anything to do with that.  It isn't my concern.


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## Hollis (Mar 1, 2018)

Referencing software - does anyone use it?  I've been playing around with Mendeley for my dissertation... seems okay, but not sure it is worth it..


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## aqua (Mar 1, 2018)

I use endnote, it's a fucking pain in the arse at best


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## Looby (Mar 1, 2018)

aqua said:


> I use endnote, it's a fucking pain in the arse at best


I’ve just been introduced to endnote and I feel like it could change my life. The library bloke said I was being a little optimistic. [emoji6]


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## redsquirrel (Mar 1, 2018)

Hollis said:


> Referencing software - does anyone use it?  I've been playing around with Mendeley for my dissertation... seems okay, but not sure it is worth it..





aqua said:


> I use endnote, it's a fucking pain in the arse at best


First, what do you mean by reference software? Something that organises your journal articles or something that handles the referencing for you within a document?

Personally I use software for both - Papers for organising my articles, and bibtex for sorting our references in a manuscript. You can do the former by hand (though I think it's better to use something Mendeley, Papers, EndNote if you have to), but I cannot stress enough how you should get some software to do the second. I don't know how anyone can write papers, let alone a thesis, without some sort of reference software.

Recommendations depend on what you use to write, Word, LaTeX or something else?

If you're still only beginning to write I'd strongly recommend becoming familiar (if you aren't already) with LaTeX. There is a bit of a learning curve but once you've got the hang go it LaTeX is about a billion times better than Word. It handles figures, tables, references, equations all miles better than Word, it doesn't have a problem with large files, and there are templates for many journals already out there. Referencing in LaTeX is so easy, you just select the papers you want to reference in Mendeley then export a bibtex file and link it to your .tex file. All the rest will be handled for you.

EDIT: aqua are you a mac user? For Mac people I suggest looking at Papers instead of EndNote or Mendeley. Unlike Mendeley it isn't free but it's not very expensive and even if you can't get your institution to pay for it there's a 30 day free trial. Personally I think its much better than Mendeley, and blows EndNote completely out of the water (though I have to admit I've not used Mendeley for some time so I could be a bit out of date)


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## planetgeli (Mar 1, 2018)

Free Harvard Reference Generator | Neil's Toolbox


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## Hollis (Mar 1, 2018)

I use Word - and just use the referencing function in that for documents.  I'm more into something to organise the journal articles.. though with Mendeley you can highlight/note take articles online, which is also a good feature.


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## aqua (Mar 1, 2018)

I am a Mac user but only recently and my work pc isn't, so I started with endnote and I'll use it until submitted now. In the future I'd look for others...

Looby it is good, better than my ug days of doing everything by hand, but you have to double check everything, it has a habit of fucking things up...


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## redsquirrel (Mar 1, 2018)

aqua said:


> I am a Mac user but only recently and my work pc isn't, so I started with endnote and I'll use it until submitted now. In the future I'd look for others...
> 
> Looby it is good, better than my ug days of doing everything by hand, but you have to double check everything, it has a habit of fucking things up...


Papers will export an EndNote library for you, which you can then import into EndNote, which is a bit roundabout task but Papers integrates with lots of databases so IME it does a lot better job of getting references correct than EndNote by itself.

Though in your case you're probably so close to the end that it's not worth it.


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## aqua (Mar 1, 2018)

4 weeks. Yep close to the end (again )


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## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2018)

I used latex with a miktex front end so it worked like word but writes latex. Used bibtex for references, worked great.MMy these had a huge amount of equations so it latex was the way ahead, basically. 

I found word couldn't handle large files very easily but it may be better now.


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 8, 2018)

One supervisor saying to do one thing in a group email, another replying saying don't do that it's a waste of time.  Awkward.  Going with the most senior supervisor (happily, the one who said do nothing, hence less work to do!).


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## equationgirl (Mar 8, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> One supervisor saying to do one thing in a group email, another replying saying don't do that it's a waste of time.  Awkward.  Going with the most senior supervisor (happily, the one who said do nothing, hence less work to do!).


Supervisors don't always get it right - mine thought I was being a massive slacker until I handed him the first draft of one of my thesis chapters then he agreed I had actually been working. 

The good ones are great. The bad ones are terrible or just never there. Most are in the middle.


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## aqua (Mar 8, 2018)

Mine just don't give a shit. Well 1 doesn't. The other tries but she's got a new job so leaves in the summer anyway.

I've also come to the conclusion that I'm not going to pass this time either. I know what it should look like, and mine simply doesn't. And I have neither the time or the motivation to do anything about it.


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## mango5 (Mar 8, 2018)

aqua said:


> Mine just don't give a shit. Well 1 doesn't. The other tries but she's got a new job so leaves in the summer anyway.
> 
> I've also come to the conclusion that I'm not going to pass this time either. I know what it should look like, and mine simply doesn't. And I have neither the time or the motivation to do anything about it.


Here for you.


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## aqua (Mar 8, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Here for you.


Thanks  I'm pretty OK with it tbh. I did some proper thinking the other week about this, and the strike happening and everything else, I just don't think I want to stay in HE anyway. No idea what I do want to do mind. Anyway, the phd isn't important to me really, and what I'm currently sacrificing isn't worth it longer term than this. So I'm going to do what I can, give it what I can without making myself any more poorly, and come the next viva it just is what is it  

I've checked with the people that matter and they won't think any worse of me. And since I came to this conclusion I'm WAY happier in myself too  I mean, I've enjoyed the challenge, but admitting defeat isn't so bad really, we can't all do everything right


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 15, 2018)

So on this plagiarism thing... just got an email from the senate inviting me to an investigation meeting.  They've attached copies of both our work with the similarities highlighted and HOLY SHIT this guy has ripped off my work in the most obvious and blatant way.  Half the text is highlighted.  Whole sentences written out the same way.  Ever answer making the same points and interpretations.  

It is actually ridiculous and I can't believe he's been trying to downplay it as coincidence.  I feel sick reading it.  It's obvious that he's just copied directly from my answers, occasionally making a half-hearted attempt at restructuring a sentence, but with key phrases kept exactly the same.  I am fuming.  

Meeting is in 10 days, I'm actually looking forward to the chance to explain this.


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## aqua (Mar 18, 2018)

10 days. I'm still pretty sure it's going to fail (again, if you count R&R as a fail like it is) but I'm just past caring. I'm tired and I want my life back. I have re-written pretty much the whole fucking thing which is a bit mad when I think about it. If this ain't good enough, I'm done and I'm just not cut out for it. I have 2 young kids and I want to spend my time with them and not sat doing this fucking shit any longer 

10 days until I get as drunk as I've been in years too  and I'm more excited about that than actually resubmitting


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 26, 2018)

The plagiarism nightmare is over! I've been given a minor penalty for sharing my work. They have accepted mine is the original and I didn't commit plagiarism. My work will be graded then deducted one secondary band e.g. if I got a B1 it will be made a B2. No record of this incident will show on my academic transcript.

I believe the other student is going to get a 0. Basically means even if he did well in the exam he'll end up with an F or something due to this coursework.

I had loads of evidence but he was still claiming that any similarities were coincidental. I could tell the senate found this laughable and I kind of bonded with them chatting about the ridiculous nature of the similarities.

I feel vindicated and can move forward now.


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## mango5 (Mar 26, 2018)

Glad the system worked for you.


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 26, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Glad the system worked for you.



Thanks, it's such a relief.  Was really awkward because his meeting was right before mine.  I saw him outside and he was being all friendly.  Saw him after his meeting and his face was thunder.

Most annoying thing was he'd copied parts where I'd answered a question in a unique or creative manner.  He'd copy the whole approach.  Even if I was putting in material that wasn't prompted by the question.  It is not a good feeling to see ideas you were proud of on someone else's paper.  

He messaged me afterwards saying they want to kick him off the course, asking if I can send him all the evidence I submitted, so he can work out how best to construct a defence.  I don't think getting kicked off the course is even a potential outcome, I was told he'll probably just fail this assignment.  I don't think I should send him anything.


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 26, 2018)

Also, he was claiming similarities were just due to occasionally having to use the same language as the assignment paper.  But there were parts where I'd clearly summarised the paper into my own words, and my paraphrasing had been replicated on his paper.  His defence was so weak and nonsensical I assume he was hoping plausible deniability was his best chance.  I think he'd have been better to come clean and thrown himself at their mercy.


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## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Thanks, it's such a relief.  Was really awkward because his meeting was right before mine.  I saw him outside and he was being all friendly.  Saw him after his meeting and his face was thunder.
> 
> Most annoying thing was he'd copied parts where I'd answered a question in a unique or creative manner.  He'd copy the whole approach.  Even if I was putting in material that wasn't prompted by the question.  It is not a good feeling to see ideas you were proud of on someone else's paper.
> 
> He messaged me afterwards saying they want to kick him off the course, asking if I can send him all the evidence I submitted, so he can work out how best to construct a defence.  I don't think getting kicked off the course is even a potential outcome, I was told he'll probably just fail this assignment.  I don't think I should send him anything.


Depends on what the uni has set out as consequences of doing plagiarism. 

Don't send him anything. He doesn't need it.


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 29, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Depends on what the uni has set out as consequences of doing plagiarism.
> 
> Don't send him anything. He doesn't need it.



Won't be sending him anything.  First he asked for my essay then copies it.  Then he asks me to cover for him and puts me at risk.  Finally he's asking me to help with his appeal.  Some people just keep asking and taking until you put down some firm boundaries. 

The WhatsApp chat won't even help him.  It's all evidence of him asking to see my work etc.


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 29, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Depends on what the uni has set out as consequences of doing plagiarism



I'm pretty sure for a first offence it would be a zero for the assignment.  I looked at the code of conduct.  It says they only escalate it for the most severe punishments for repeated offences.  Either he's done this before or he's trying to guilt me into helping him.


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## killer b (Mar 29, 2018)

My missus has been working on her PhD for the past 4 years and finally submitted in January, convinced it had serious flaws and she would likely have significant corrections to deal with after her viva.

Anyway, she had her viva yesterday and passed with minor typographical corrections.


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## mango5 (Mar 29, 2018)

Great news  Yay for Mrs B!


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## killer b (Mar 29, 2018)

That's _Dr_ B to you.


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2018)

Well done Dr Mrs killer b


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> I'm pretty sure for a first offence it would be a zero for the assignment.  I looked at the code of conduct.  It says they only escalate it for the most severe punishments for repeated offences.  Either he's done this before or he's trying to guilt me into helping him.


Steer clear of him. If he is trying to guilt you and you help him, he'll throw you under the bus to save himself.


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## Sunset Tree (Mar 29, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Steer clear of him. If he is trying to guilt you and you help him, he'll throw you under the bus to save himself.



Totally agree.  I've blocked him and will move on with my studies and my life.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 29, 2018)

killer b said:


> My missus has been working on her PhD for the past 4 years and finally submitted in January, convinced it had serious flaws and she would likely have significant corrections to deal with after her viva.
> 
> Anyway, she had her viva yesterday and passed with minor typographical corrections.


Excellent news. Congrats to her


----------



## mango5 (Apr 4, 2018)

Something  for the lurkers on this thread (free MOOC 'discovering your PhD potential)  Writing a Research Proposal - Online Course


----------



## Hollis (Apr 16, 2018)

First 40 seconds of this: me trying to recruit research participants for my dissertation.


----------



## Zorra (Apr 18, 2018)

aqua said:


> 4 weeks. Yep close to the end (again )


How did it go?

My viva is in ten days


----------



## aqua (May 25, 2018)

Zorra said:


> How did it go?
> 
> My viva is in ten days


Sorry didn't see this! How was your viva?

I've just had confirmation that I've passed with minor corrections. No re-viva needed. I feel faint and excited and exhausted and odd all at once.


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## Sunset Tree (May 25, 2018)

aqua that's awesome, congratulations


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2018)

That's _Dr_ aqua. Congratulations!


----------



## moonsi til (May 25, 2018)

Yay fab news. Well done Dr Aqua.


----------



## equationgirl (May 26, 2018)

Well done aqua


----------



## Zorra (May 26, 2018)

Wahoo Dr aqua! Congrats, that's brilliant! Minor corrections here too so 2 more weeks to turn it around and hopefully forget about it forever


----------



## aqua (May 27, 2018)

Yay congrats! x


----------



## equationgirl (May 27, 2018)

Brilliant Zorra well done to you too


----------



## mango5 (May 31, 2018)

Nice work Dr Zorra


----------



## sorearm (Jun 10, 2018)

aqua said:


> Sorry didn't see this! How was your viva?
> 
> I've just had confirmation that I've passed with minor corrections. No re-viva needed. I feel faint and excited and exhausted and odd all at once.



congratulations DOCTOR!


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 16, 2018)

I've got some bad feedback on my MA dissertation and was wondering whether it would affect my chances of being accepted for a PhD?


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## aqua (Jun 16, 2018)

How would people know about it? Is feedback shared between colleagues? Assuming you're staying at the same institution.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 16, 2018)

aqua said:


> How would people know about it? Is feedback shared between colleagues? Assuming you're staying at the same institution.



You'd have to show a results transcript as part of the PhD application surely, so if the MA grade reflects the feedback it won't help.



frogwoman said:


> I've got some bad feedback on my MA dissertation and was wondering whether it would affect my chances of being accepted for a PhD?



I think there are numerous factors they'll account for in PhD applicants.  Not just grades but volunteering, research experience, a particular personal suitability for the project (e.g. lived experience or passion for the topic), a really good personal statement, if you seem really driven or have overcome adversity.  Grades are important because it's so competitive but if you're a strong candidate in other ways it might not be a killer.  

Are you self-funding or wanting to apply for research council funding?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 16, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> You'd have to show a results transcript as part of the PhD application surely, so if the MA grade reflects the feedback it won't help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a funded PhD in Sweden so if I got it I'd get a salary.


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## frogwoman (Jun 16, 2018)

aqua said:


> How would people know about it? Is feedback shared between colleagues? Assuming you're staying at the same institution.



in terms of the grade (haven't received that yet!)


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 16, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> It's a funded PhD in Sweden so if I got it I'd get a salary.



That would be sweet, I've heard PhD students get a much better deal over there.

Your grade might be better than you expect.

I'd always say don't put all your eggs in one basket with PhD applications, anyway.  You can be a perfect candidate and miss out.  Advice I got was apply to at least half a dozen.  I had five rejections and one acceptance.  Are you applying to any other PhD's?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 16, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> That would be sweet, I've heard PhD students get a much better deal over there.
> 
> Your grade might be better than you expect.
> 
> I'd always say don't put all your eggs in one basket with PhD applications, anyway.  You can be a perfect candidate and miss out.  Advice I got was apply to at least half a dozen.  I had five rejections and one acceptance.  Are you applying to any other PhD's?



I'm looking at others too.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> I've got some bad feedback on my MA dissertation and was wondering whether it would affect my chances of being accepted for a PhD?


tbh it depends on your overall ma performance. a few days ago i was discussing my potential phd with a potential supervisor, and he said the college i'm looking at only accepts people for phds who got a distinction in a masters. i don't know how widely this applies, and whether some subjects require this more than others (i'm looking at history). 

however, depending on what the feedback you got is, you might be able to turn this into a positive if you're able to demonstrate that you appreciate why aspects of your work may have fallen short and how you would avoid this in a longer research project.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> a few days ago i was discussing my potential phd with a potential supervisor, and he said the college i'm looking at only accepts people for phds who got a distinction in a masters. i don't know how widely this applies, and whether some subjects require this more than others (i'm looking at history)



I was given this same advice when I was applying (public health).  

However, I am sure it is university and course dependent, and there is probably wriggle room if you're an excellent candidate in other ways.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> I was given this same advice when I was applying (public health).
> 
> However, I am sure it is university and course dependent, and there is probably wriggle room if you're an excellent candidate in other ways.


i've known frogwoman for about fourteen years and i'm confident she is an excellent candidate.


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## aqua (Jun 16, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> in terms of the grade (haven't received that yet!)


Well yes your grade will influence your chances but feedback itself shouldn't as such. That's more what I was getting at. Feedback is designed to be useful to improve in the future after all.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 16, 2018)

Sometimes you get a decent grade with really harsh comments, because some graders only think it is worth commenting on the negatives.  Kind of weird getting feedback before the grade, I could see that being really anxiety inducing.  Might not be too bad.


----------



## Hollis (Jun 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it depends on your overall ma performance. a few days ago i was discussing my potential phd with a potential supervisor, and he said the college i'm looking at only accepts people for phds who got a distinction in a masters. i don't know how widely this applies, and whether some subjects require this more than others (i'm looking at history).



I would imagine in some cases it might depend on who is funding it or if you're self-funding?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2018)

Hollis said:


> I would imagine in some cases it might depend on who is funding it or if you're self-funding?


in some cases, perhaps. but there is a limit to the number of people - self-funding or no - who can reasonably be supervised by the available academic staff.


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## Hollis (Jun 17, 2018)

yeah - guess it depends on the subject and supervisor.. and also the need to attract funding in some cases.  There seem to be a few places around where for history you need a 2:1 at undergrad and a masters.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2018)

Hollis said:


> yeah - guess it depends on the subject and supervisor.. and also the need to attract funding in some cases.  There seem to be a few places around where for history you need a 2:1 at undergrad and a masters.


in the brief chat i had with potential supervisor he said that we should be able to put together a decent proposal over the next few months, and when i met him before - some years ago - he made a point about how many of his phd students had recieved funding, so i don't think i'll need to go looking yet for a third job.


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## Beats & Pieces (Jun 17, 2018)

If you did not achieve a 'Distinction' in your MA why should /would you want to do a PhD?


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## mango5 (Jun 17, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> If you did not achieve a 'Distinction' in your MA why should /would you want to do a PhD?


Speaking personally, because 15 years after my Masters (completed with modest grades part-time alongside full-time work) I have the skills and motivation and inspiration and branez to do a PhD.  
A top university and a research council agreed.


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## equationgirl (Jun 17, 2018)

frogwoman a masters dissertation is not expected to be, and will not be equivalent in standard to, a PhD thesis, but it will indicate aptitude for doing a PhD. 

I think it's a great step for you to take


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## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> If you did not achieve a 'Distinction' in your MA why should /would you want to do a PhD?


it might be that things happened during your masters that prevented you achieving the marks you should have, as happened to me once when my hitherto stable housing suddenly became anything but.


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## equationgirl (Jun 17, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> If you did not achieve a 'Distinction' in your MA why should /would you want to do a PhD?


Because you can be capable of doing it, and want to succeed so strongly nothing else matters. So you do it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> If you did not achieve a 'Distinction' in your MA why should /would you want to do a PhD?


anyway if that's to me i did get a distinction which was a great surprise to me. not only that but the one article i've since had published received an award.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> anyway if that's to me i did get a distinction which was a great surprise to me. not only that but the one article i've since had published received an award.


Congratulations, that's a fab achievement


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> anyway if that's to me i did get a distinction which was a great surprise to me. not only that but the one article i've since had published received an award.



Congratulations on your achievement. Do you have a link to the article you refer to?


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

A distinction isn't everything. I've done two masters, from which I've learned I'm capable of getting a distinction (first one) and capable of not getting a distinction (second one). I'm just finishing up the second one and even if I smash the dissertation a distinction is impossible based on current grades.

If I were being judged on the current masters maybe I wouldn't be considered a top PhD applicant, but I've had a lot going on this year and it's easy to fuck up the odd assignment and damage your grade average. Doesn't mean you don't have the qualities for a PhD.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

I did my defence, they said that it was 'probably not very good but simply good'  other people got told theirs was excellent. I don't get the actual grade, will have to wait till October for that. Having looked at the mark scheme 'good' isn't that bad though (60-64). Most of my grades have been around there. The highest has been 68 or so, the lowest 59 I think.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Just looked again, I had two 55 grades and one 60 with the rest being in the high 60s.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Just looked at my grades for this year too (at the Russian university). Some of them in the 70s with the lowest just 'good'. So yeah hopefully OK although i don't know how much store PhD applications will set by those marks. From the marks by the UCL marker I don't think my dissertation is that shit, G-d knows though


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Will i need the grade of the dissertation if I'm applying for a PhD? Apparently we are only graduating in 2019 even tho we've done all of the work


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> I did my defence, they said that it was 'probably not very good but simply good'  other people got told theirs was excellent. I don't get the actual grade, will have to wait till October for that. Having looked at the mark scheme 'good' isn't that bad though (60-64). Most of my grades have been around there. The highest has been 68 or so, the lowest 59 I think.



Sounds like you've done well.  Even the fact you studied in Russia will reflect really well on your motivation and drive to do really interesting things with your academic career.  Really interesting thing to talk about on an application or an interview.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 18, 2018)

Sounds like you are in a good position. FWIW I think the dissertation can be used as 'evidence that this person is suitable for PhD study', but it aint gonna be the deciding factor, no way. Much more important I would say is whether your proposed PhD fits in with the department's and individual supervisors' interests, whether you have thought about your project already and how it might fit with or speak to the work of others, and whether you are suited to PhD study, i.e you can work alone with minimal supervision, you are enthusiastic about your topic, and you can be flexible and handle criticism. I can't imagine a PhD candidate with an interesting project getting rejected because they didn't ace their masters dissertation.

Well done and good luck anyway!


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Sounds like you've done well.  Even the fact you studied in Russia will reflect really well on your motivation and drive to do really interesting things with your academic career.  Really interesting thing to talk about on an application or an interview.



i hope so, problem is i was depressed for a lot of it which would have affected my studies


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Sounds like you are in a good position. FWIW I think the dissertation can be used as 'evidence that this person is suitable for PhD study', but it aint gonna be the deciding factor, no way. Much more important I would say is whether your proposed PhD fits in with the department's and individual supervisors' interests, whether you have thought about your project already and how it might fit with or speak to the work of others, and whether you are suited to PhD study, i.e you can work alone with minimal supervision, you are enthusiastic about your topic, and you can be flexible and handle criticism. I can't imagine a PhD candidate with an interesting project getting rejected because they didn't ace their masters dissertation.
> 
> Well done and good luck anyway!



I addressed most of the criticisms in the talk (on my dissertation). yeah my proposed topic (and what they're advertising for) is on the far right which is a topic i know pretty well, and i have an idea for an interesting proposal about that.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> i hope so, problem is i was depressed for a lot of it which would have affected my studies



Your grades sound solid from there though.  Experiences like that go a long way in demonstrating your passion for your studies, that's a really important part of the application and will make you stand out.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Sounds like you are in a good position. FWIW I think the dissertation can be used as 'evidence that this person is suitable for PhD study', but it aint gonna be the deciding factor, no way. Much more important I would say is whether your proposed PhD fits in with the department's and individual supervisors' interests, whether you have thought about your project already and how it might fit with or speak to the work of others, and whether you are suited to PhD study, i.e you can work alone with minimal supervision, you are enthusiastic about your topic, and you can be flexible and handle criticism. I can't imagine a PhD candidate with an interesting project getting rejected because they didn't ace their masters dissertation.
> 
> Well done and good luck anyway!



Don't some PhDs demand particular grades in the masters though?


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## equationgirl (Jun 18, 2018)

Outside academia, I'm not sure a distinction means anything other that you got higher marks for the work. The qualification awarded is still a Masters


frogwoman said:


> i hope so, problem is i was depressed for a lot of it which would have affected my studies


I don't see evidence of that in your grades to be honest. I think you did fantastically well to keep studying in those circumstances.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Don't some PhDs demand particular grades in the masters though?



Not in my experience but I have tended to be in Social Science Depts


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## equationgirl (Jun 18, 2018)

It's been a long time since I applied for mine, as far as I remember I just had to supply proof of my qualifications.


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## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Your grades sound solid from there though.  Experiences like that go a long way in demonstrating your passion for your studies, that's a really important part of the application and will make you stand out.



yeah, the thing is  for a large part of it i kinda kept to myself and didnt do much socially, i was also messed around a lot (i was meant to have some work experience which they kind of screwed up, although it is still recorded on my transcript that i've done it).


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## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Not in my experience but I have tended to be in Social Science Depts



that's what i'm looking for because i have a research proposal about some fash shit


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## The Pale King (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> that's what i'm looking for because i have a research proposal about some fash shit



Sounds great and extremely timely!


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## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Outside academia, I'm not sure a distinction means anything other that you got higher marks for the work. The qualification awarded is still a Masters
> 
> I don't see evidence of that in your grades to be honest. I think you did fantastically well to keep studying in those circumstances.



Compared to other people though (at least the people having their dissertations marked today), I dont think I've done that well in the dissertation (although I got good/excellent grades in other subjects).


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## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> It's been a long time since I applied for mine, as far as I remember I just had to supply proof of my qualifications.


so far with mine the rigorous checking was 'we need an ma distinction to accept phd students' 'i have one in victorian studies' 'excellent'

i'd misplaced three of my degree certificates and was resigning myself to having to pay for replacements when by chance i looked in a drawer and found not only the degree certificates but my music theory certificates too. my partner thinks i left them with her when things got a bit uncomfy where i was living before.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Compared to other people though (at least the people having their dissertations marked today), I dont think I've done that well in the dissertation (although I got good/excellent grades in other subjects).


I think you're overthinking this a bit. Try to put it to one side and keep applying for PhD places. The right uni won't turn you down. 

I also know people who hit accepted to a PhD place having a third in the undergraduate.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

i also had to resit one grade last year, the second time i did ok, the first time was awful. i haven't failed anything though thank g-d.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Don't some PhDs demand particular grades in the masters though?



Mine didn't.  I was sort of told off-the-record by one of my referees that I might need a distinction, but it wasn't an official requirement.  What they're looking for is the most suitable candidate, e.g. someone who is really passionate and well suited to the specific research project, who can bring original ideas, who has a good grasp of the literature, and has a really interesting proposal, maybe someone who has done interesting things (e.g. studying in Russia).  

In my PhD interview I spoke a lot about my volunteering experience and my personal biography, challenges I'd overcome.  They are interested in everything about you.  I'm probably under qualified compared to many of the PhD students in my cohort but was just the right person for this specific project.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I think you're overthinking this a bit. Try to put it to one side and keep applying for PhD places. The right uni won't turn you down.
> 
> I also know people who hit accepted to a PhD place having a third in the undergraduate.



i hope so. i already emailed the guy at the uni i am applying to and he said my research sounded interesting and the sort of thing they're looking for.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Mine didn't.  I was sort of told off-the-record by one of my referees that I might need a distinction, but it wasn't an official requirement.  What they're looking for is the most suitable candidate, e.g. someone who is really passionate and well suited to the specific research project, who can bring original ideas, who has a good grasp of the literature, and has a really interesting proposal, maybe someone who has done interesting things (e.g. studying in Russia).
> 
> In my PhD interview I spoke a lot about my volunteering experience and my personal biography, challenges I'd overcome.  They are interested in everything about you.  I'm probably under qualified compared to many of the PhD students in my cohort but was just the right person for this specific project.



yeah i mean the other problem is my social skills aren't great and i get really anxious/procrastinate easily which affects my grade, i guess it's nothing new for a phd though (my dad took like three extra years to finish his phd which he did last year, lol).


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, the thing is  for a large part of it i kinda kept to myself and didnt do much socially, i was also messed around a lot (i was meant to have some work experience which they kind of screwed up, although it is still recorded on my transcript that i've done it).



Don't worry about it, just think about how you can talk up the positives.  I had a placement in my first masters which was a total disaster (basically had nothing to do with my course content and no opportunities to practice the skills I was supposed to).  I didn't tell them that in the interview, I talked it up as a really positive experience and sort of embellished it.  I made it look good on paper, basically.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> yeah i mean the other problem is my social skills aren't great and i get really anxious/procrastinate easily which affects my grade, i guess it's nothing new for a phd though (my dad took like three extra years to finish his phd which he did last year, lol).



All PhD students have terrible social skills and procrastination, you'll fit right in.


----------



## chilango (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Don't some PhDs demand particular grades in the masters though?



The one I'm looking at (in Education) does. I forget the wording but iirc they usually want a merit or above as an entry requirement. But that's just one Dept at one Uni.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> i hope so. i already emailed the guy at the uni i am applying to and he said my research sounded interesting and the sort of thing they're looking for.


I think that's more important, really. 

Also might be worth asking about his own research interests and how he sees those developing over the next few years. I regret not asking my own supervisor that because while he was enthusiastic about my research idea initially, a year in he decided to pull out of that area and wanted me to change research direction too. 

I politely declined, not least because they weren't going to give me another year's funding, and I had had a breakthrough in the modelling a few weeks prior. Changing direction would have scrapped all that, plus I didn't fancy starting again. 

My supervisor lost interest in my work after that.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> All PhD students have terrible social skills and procrastination, you'll fit right in.



i doubt you could 'beat' my dad though  he almost gave up like four or five times lol and didnt do anything on it for like a year


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 18, 2018)

Procrastination is part of doing a PhD, don't worry.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I think that's more important, really.



Finding a potential supervisor to mentor you through the application process and assist in creating a strong proposal is key.  This is perhaps the most important thing.  They'll get a feel for working with you and how well you handle feedback etc when they're helping guide your proposal, and this helps inform if they'll consider you a good candidate.  They can write a strong supporting reference too and that helps tons.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

i guess the main thing is my grades have been solid (ie good but 'not very good' pretty much consistently. i didnt have above 70 for anything last year, there were a couple things where i got 55, and this year i dont know exactly how they translate to the english system but they've been better overall (apart from the dissertation). i doubt i'll get a merit lol but i haven't failed and i guess i could frame that as like managing to get pretty good grades despite all my mental health/whatever challenges?


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> i guess the main thing is my grades have been solid (ie good but 'not very good' pretty much consistently. i didnt have above 70 for anything last year, there were a couple things where i got 55, and this year i dont know exactly how they translate to the english system but they've been better overall (apart from the dissertation). i doubt i'll get a merit lol but i haven't failed and i guess i could frame that as like managing to get pretty good grades despite all my mental health/whatever challenges?



Definitely.  I don't even think a PhD is about being able to produce 'excellent' work all the time, it's about producing 'good' work constantly over a long-term period, whatever else life throws at you.  Then your supervisors help you whip it into excellent work with feedback and rewrites.

Demonstrating you can keep going and get things done in the face of adversity is huge.  I really talked up how I'd started uni as a mature student and worked part-time jobs, volunteering, placements etc. throughout my studies - trying to demonstrate to the selection panel that I am reliable and driven, and won't drop out when it gets hard.  I think that stuff really matters.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 18, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Definitely.  I don't even think a PhD is about being able to produce 'excellent' work all the time, it's about producing 'good' work constantly over a long-term period, whatever else life throws at you.  Then your supervisors help you whip it into excellent work with feedback and rewrites.
> 
> Demonstrating you can keep going and get things done in the face of adversity is huge.  I really talked up how I'd started uni as a mature student and worked part-time jobs, volunteering, placements etc. throughout my studies - trying to demonstrate to the selection panel that I am reliable and driven, and won't drop out when it gets hard.  I think that stuff really matters.



Couldn't agree more.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Definitely.  I don't even think a PhD is about being able to produce 'excellent' work all the time, it's about producing 'good' work constantly over a long-term period, whatever else life throws at you.  Then your supervisors help you whip it into excellent work with feedback and rewrites.
> 
> Demonstrating you can keep going and get things done in the face of adversity is huge.  I really talked up how I'd started uni as a mature student and worked part-time jobs, volunteering, placements etc. throughout my studies - trying to demonstrate to the selection panel that I am reliable and driven, and won't drop out when it gets hard.  I think that stuff really matters.



I just done a master's as a mature student. in another country as well where everyone is massively younger than me so i guess tht counts for something.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2018)

yeah i think part of the reason i didn't do so well this time is because i didn't show much of my work to my supervisors (although i showed some).


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> I just done a master's as a mature student. in another country as well where everyone is massively younger than me so i guess tht counts for something.



It counts for a lot.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 18, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Don't some PhDs demand particular grades in the masters though?


Yes, but there's generally a degree of flexibility about these things. I wouldn't worry too much about things at this stage.



equationgirl said:


> I think you're overthinking this a bit. Try to put it to one side and keep applying for PhD places. The right uni won't turn you down.
> 
> I also know people who hit accepted to a PhD place having a third in the undergraduate.


This. I know someone who's now a lecturer after getting a third.

frogwoman  one thing to think about is how PhD supervision is conducted at the universities you're interested in. Many universities will now no longer have PhD's with only a single supervisor, instead you'll have a supervision team.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2018)

Also, if you are able to beforehand, it's worth checking what current students think of your proposed supervisor in terms of standard of supervision, availability, that sort of thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Also, if you are able to beforehand, it's worth checking what current students think of your proposed supervisor in terms of standard of supervision, availability, that sort of thing.


i saw my potential supervisor talking to a current phd student and was very happy to see the way they got on.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 20, 2018)

anecdote question - My niece is just finishing her phd and was telling me that her science place ( decent uni, up north) no longer accepts self funded phds as they are a pain the fucking arse & consider  their studies to be a business transaction - i think they are overseas candidates mostly - anyone else heard of this?


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 20, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> anecdote question - My niece is just finishing her phd and was telling me that her science place ( decent uni, up north) no longer accepts self funded phds as they are a pain the fucking arse & consider  their studies to be a business transaction - i think they are overseas candidates mostly - anyone else heard of this?



Haven't heard specifically that the students are considered a hassle.  However, I have heard that you should only do a PhD if you are awarded funding.  I.e. it's the offer of funding which really constitutes an 'acceptance' and willingness to recruit you.  Otherwise, they will still take your money but it's not the same and you might not get the same support.


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## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

Surely that varies enormously between subjects and the relative amount of funded places available?


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## mango5 (Jun 20, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> anecdote question - My niece is just finishing her phd and was telling me that her science place ( decent uni, up north) no longer accepts self funded phds as they are a pain the fucking arse & consider  their studies to be a business transaction - i think they are overseas candidates mostly - anyone else heard of this?


Likely to depend on institution and department. I know self-funded folk (not international students, social sciences and humanities) whose unis are very happy to take their money and give them less support than those on funded schemes and there is less pressure on time so supervisors can and will string them along for years.


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## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

If (and it's a big if at this stage) I do a PhD it's almost certainly going to be self-funded. I think there's only one funded place per year in my Dept.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> anecdote question - My niece is just finishing her phd and was telling me that her science place ( decent uni, up north) no longer accepts self funded phds as they are a pain the fucking arse & consider  their studies to be a business transaction - i think they are overseas candidates mostly - anyone else heard of this?





chilango said:


> Surely that varies enormously between subjects and the relative amount of funded places available?


This. My university would bite the hand off any self-funded PhDs


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## Brainaddict (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> If (and it's a big if at this stage) I do a PhD it's almost certainly going to be self-funded. I think there's only one funded place per year in my Dept.


Would that be doing it part time? I've considered doing self-funded part time but the idea of doing a job and PhD at the same time does my head in and seems to undermine a lot of the advantages I perceive in doing a PhD - like having more time to think about the stuff I want to think about, and reducing the overall amount of stuff I'm having to work on at once (because the topic would be stuff I'm working on anyway).


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## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Would that be doing it part time? I've considered doing self-funded part time but the idea of doing a job and PhD at the same time does my head in and seems to undermine a lot of the advantages I perceive in doing a PhD - like having more time to think about the stuff I want to think about, and reducing the overall amount of stuff I'm having to work on at once (because the topic would be stuff I'm working on anyway).



Yeah. Very part-time I fear.

I'd much rather be funded, obviously.

Failing that be able to drop down to 0.8fte at work and spend a day a week on studying.

But neither of these have good odds of happening.

So....I reckon worst case scenario is just to get started and hope something comes up as I'm going.

Still over a year (and a Master's dissertation away though, so who knows what might hapoen in the meantime...).


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## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I've considered doing self-funded part time but the idea of doing a job and PhD at the same time does my head in and seems to undermine a lot of the advantages I perceive in doing a PhD


I know people who have successfully done this but doing a PhD isn't easy and this will make it harder. 

You also need to consider timelines remember that you're contribution has to be novel so if you are going to take a long time to complete then you do have an added risk of someone publishing stuff from underneath you. In some disciplines this probably might not be much of an issue, in others it could be an important factor.


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## Brainaddict (Jun 20, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> I know people who have successfully done this but doing a PhD isn't easy and this will make it harder.
> 
> You also need to consider timelines remember that you're contribution has to be novel so if you are going to take a long time to complete then you do have an added risk of someone publishing stuff from underneath you. In some disciplines this probably might not be much of an issue, in others it could be an important factor.


Yeah, because I'm interested in some particular qualitative stuff there's not really much chance of duplication (more a problem of trying to shoehorn it into the existing literature if anything). But the part-time plus job thing does seem to me to have major quality of life implications. I value my free time.


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## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, because I'm interested in some particular qualitative stuff there's not really much chance of duplication (more a problem of trying to shoehorn it into the existing literature if anything). But the part-time plus job thing does seem to me to have major quality of life implications. I value my free time.


You won't get much free time doing a PhD, to be brutally honest. 

I worked 20 hours part time plus roughly 40 hours a week for four years. I did have one day off a week where I did neither. 

I needed the money, plus it was good to do something a bit different (I worked in the uni library).


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 21, 2018)

I have to say, from having worked with quite a lot of PhD students over the last few years, that the PT and working ones represent a very high proportion of the non-finishers and dropouts. I think it's often changing circumstances that does it - even if everything goes to plan it's five years (and everyone starts thinking that's going to be them), it doesn't take a lot and it's 7 or 8 years down the line, and who knows what they'll be doing in that sort of time? I'd think very carefully indeed before heading down that route and if you're considering it then you do need to think in a very long term way. 

(Sorry sounds a bit lecture-y but just my observations).


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2018)

I'm sure all these cautions are true...

...but if the funding just isn't there what choice do people have?


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## aqua (Jun 21, 2018)

Totally agree with you Monkeygrinder's Organ - I was funded by my work thankfully, but it took me just over 10 years, in that time I had 2 children, lost one mid-pregnancy, my Dad was diagnosed with (and is now at end stages) the visual variant of alzheimers, my job changed so I no longer work in the area I research. I've just finished. To say it a) took longer and b) was a real struggle, is an understatement.


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## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2018)

chilango said:


> I'm sure all these cautions are true...
> 
> ...but if the funding just isn't there what choice do people have?


I self-funded for the last year, whilst I was writing up. It was hard but because I knew that it was a strong possibility at the start, I had time to put money aside. I also knew that the likelihood of non-completion was reasonably high unless I was determined to finish (it was my second attempt). 

It's worth asking potential supervisors about their personal non-completion rate (how many of their students don't finish). 

chilango have you looked at any unis that want Hall wardens or residential advisers? Often no pay but board and lodging included, so at least you would be housed and fed.


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I self-funded for the last year, whilst I was writing up. It was hard but because I knew that it was a strong possibility at the start, I had time to put money aside. I also knew that the likelihood of non-completion was reasonably high unless I was determined to finish (it was my second attempt).
> 
> It's worth asking potential supervisors about their personal non-completion rate (how many of their students don't finish).
> 
> chilango have you looked at any unis that want Hall wardens or residential advisers? Often no pay but board and lodging included, so at least you would be housed and fed.



Thanks.

The cost of self-funding isn't a massive issue tbh if I carry on working. But as a family we can't afford for me to stop working completely (or relocate). As I said above a 0.8 or even 0.6fte job would be ideal, but its hard enough find a job as it is without trying to get specific hour reductions.

But otoh I'm happily doing my MA whilst working full-time and have done a PGDip via distance learning in past so am fairly well practised at balancing studying with everything else.

I'll be in no rush to finish my PhD.  So hopefully can keep the workload sustainable.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2018)

chilango said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The cost of self-funding isn't a massive issue tbh if I carry on working. But as a family we can't afford for me to stop working completely (or relocate). As I said above a 0.8 or even 0.6fte job would be ideal, but its hard enough find a job as it is without trying to get specific hour reductions.
> 
> ...


the thing is with a phd it's rather more than just research and writing. phd students often submit articles to journals, they attend conferences and present papers, they form a research community within their university. they often teach undergraduate students and mark work. i suppose you can do a phd without much interaction with academics and other researchers, but you'd be the poorer for it, you'd be paying in the region of £12k for someone to supervise you writing a book in essence. 

what scares me is that unless something grand happens in the next 15 months i'll be starting with a full time job. while i've identified and downloaded around 300 articles and 150 books on my topic, of which i have around 30 on my shelves, and located much of the material i either don't possess or have access to where i work, i'm concerned about the amount of time i'll need simply to read and write.

we'll see.


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the thing is with a phd it's rather more than just research and writing. phd students often submit articles to journals, they attend conferences and present papers, they form a research community within their university. they often teach undergraduate students and mark work. i suppose you can do a phd without much interaction with academics and other researchers, but you'd be the poorer for it, you'd be paying in the region of £12k for someone to supervise you writing a book in essence.
> 
> what scares me is that unless something grand happens in the next 15 months i'll be starting with a full time job. while i've identified and downloaded around 300 articles and 150 books on my topic, of which i have around 30 on my shelves, and located much of the material i either don't possess or have access to where i work, i'm concerned about the amount of time i'll need simply to read and write.
> 
> we'll see.



My PhD would be related to my work (though not a direct part of it) so I don't think the wider role of research would be a problem to fit with my work role. 

Ideally I'd be looking to find work "as an academic" (teaching at the Uni or whatever) but those roles are I suspect scarce, so it might take a while.

But, as I said, I'm in no hurry.

Regardless, the worst that'll happen is it goes wrong and I quit.

I won't be any worse off if that happens. I'd still not have a PhD and would've just added a bit more to the stupid amounts of money I've spent on education during my life.

We'll see.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2018)

chilango said:


> My PhD would be related to my work (though not a direct part of it) so I don't think the wider role of research would be a problem to fit with my work role.
> 
> Ideally I'd be looking to find work "as an academic" (teaching at the Uni or whatever) but those roles are I suspect scarce, so it might take a while.
> 
> ...


apparently about 80% of people with doctorates don't end up with an academic job. it would be nice to get one! but it wouldn't be the end of the world if i didn't.


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## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2018)

I don't have an academic job (either ex job or soon to be new job). I worked in an research and development department and I would estimate at the peak around half the staff had a PhD. 

Basically it's a qualification that says you know how to do research - set up a hypothesis, test it and draw conclusions from the results.


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I don't have an academic job (either ex job or soon to be new job). I worked in an research and development department and I would estimate at the peak around half the staff had a PhD.
> 
> Basically it's a qualification that says you know how to do research - set up a hypothesis, test it and draw conclusions from the results.



...which will be really fucking handy in my job as it happens!


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## Brainaddict (Jun 21, 2018)

Another problematic factor for me is I don't have the research methods training, so would need to do 4 years. It has also been suggested that I do an MRes part time first of all, then see how it goes. I could start my topic research during the MRes. But even the time-intense nature of doing a masters part time fills me with dread. I'm beginning to think I need funding or its no go. Or I win the lottery.


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2018)

My final taught MA module was basically research methods and the assignment is to write my dissertation research proposal. Which is helpful. Have a meeting with my tutor coming up to see whether my ideas are viable or not.


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## The Pale King (Jun 21, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Another problematic factor for me is I don't have the research methods training, so would need to do 4 years. It has also been suggested that I do an MRes part time first of all, then see how it goes. I could start my topic research during the MRes. But even the time-intense nature of doing a masters part time fills me with dread. I'm beginning to think I need funding or its no go. Or I win the lottery.



You could look at it another way - actually having more time to think/read research. Hardly ideal I know especially as you can feel a bit less connected or on another track than cohort, but does mean you can turn over and try out ideas over more time. Mres year important to plan the fucker as well because it won't end up being at the end what you thought it would be at the start! Best of luck with funding anyway.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 21, 2018)

aqua said:


> Totally agree with you Monkeygrinder's Organ - I was funded by my work thankfully, but it took me just over 10 years, in that time I had 2 children, lost one mid-pregnancy, my Dad was diagnosed with (and is now at end stages) the visual variant of alzheimers, my job changed so I no longer work in the area I research. I've just finished. To say it a) took longer and b) was a real struggle, is an understatement.



Congratulations on finishing despite all that.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 21, 2018)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> ...(Sorry sounds a bit lecture-y but just my observations).


Yeah 


chilango said:


> I'm sure all these cautions are true...
> 
> ...but if the funding just isn't there what choice do people have?


Oh I know, it's shot. And I don't want to put people off, doing a PhD can be immensely rewarding and of you do go forward I really hope you succeed. But I don't want to underplay how tough it can be.


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2018)

There's also the alternative, Plan B if you like, if an EdD. Cheaper, more "taught" and designed for working students.

I was initially skeptical, based on the hope that a  PhD offered a route out of my line of work rather than entrenching my position.

I'm changing jobs soon though so by the time I'm applying this may have changed.


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## mango5 (Jun 21, 2018)

chilango said:


> I'm sure all these cautions are true...
> 
> ...but if the funding just isn't there what choice do people have?


I know several people who are research council funded part-timers  Two who started out with that and others who went part-time part way through.

Eta I wish I had known this was possible before I started mine


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## mango5 (Jun 21, 2018)

Brainaddict I did a PGcert in research methods with the OU when I was trying to do my research independently while working (it hadn't occurred to me to do it as a PhD at that point). Anyway I think that probably helped me get a funded PhD place a few years later. And I did get more interesting employment off the back of the research skills I developed while I was studying.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 21, 2018)

good luck all- i was considering on a handful of years ago but life and shit got in the way.


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## Beats & Pieces (Jun 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the thing is with a phd it's rather more than just research and writing. phd students often submit articles to journals, they attend conferences and present papers, they form a research community within their university. they often teach undergraduate students and mark work. i suppose you can do a phd without much interaction with academics and other researchers, but you'd be the poorer for it, you'd be paying in the region of £12k for someone to supervise you writing a book in essence.
> 
> what scares me is that unless something grand happens in the next 15 months i'll be starting with a full time job. while i've identified and downloaded around 300 articles and 150 books on my topic, of which i have around 30 on my shelves, and located much of the material i either don't possess or have access to where i work, i'm concerned about the amount of time i'll need simply to read and write.
> 
> we'll see.



What would your PhD be concerned with? Given your apparently award winning prior work - ?


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What would your PhD be concerned with? Given your apparently award winning prior work - ?


Did you mean for that to come across as a bit rude?


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## Beats & Pieces (Jun 22, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Did you mean for that to come across as a bit rude?



No, not in any way.


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No, not in any way.


I think it was the 'apparently' that did it.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 23, 2018)

Nearly finished up my methods section for this dissertation.

Haven't approached this whole thing in my usual organised way.  Normally it would be lots of note taking first, then organise the notes into a structure, then start writing.  This time I've just been smashing words down in a more haphazard way with the intent of tidying it up with a rewrite.

A second masters was honestly a mistake as it's hard to motivate myself and I'm just plodding.  Was totally optional too, I just wanted the extra year of funding for my studentship plus the chance to do a pilot project and more research training before jumping into a PhD.  I've felt weary of it from the start though, as soon as lectures started it felt like a slog.  Six weeks left.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 24, 2018)

Trying to resist diving into procrastination mode and cleaning out my big cupboard (full of junk).  

It will just be more satisfying and less brain power involved than writing


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## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Trying to resist diving into procrastination mode and cleaning out my big cupboard (full of junk).
> 
> It will just be more satisfying and less brain power involved than writing


My flat was never as clean as when I was writing up. Procrastination ftw.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 24, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> My flat was never as clean as when I was writing up. Procrastination ftw.



Totally, I always have to have a good clean and tidy before I start otherwise I'll use it is a distraction.

I've just finished my methods section so may treat myself to a good clear-out now.

When I say 'finished', I have about 5000 words for a section which only needs maybe 2500, so will require disciplined editing later.  But still, done.  Data analysis can start tomorrow, rest of day off for me!


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## Beats & Pieces (Jun 24, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I think it was the 'apparently' that did it.



Or your reading of the word.


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## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Or your reading of the word.


Perhaps, tone can be hard to discern from written text.


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## Beats & Pieces (Jun 25, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Perhaps, tone can be hard to discern from written text.



*Absolutely*. I am very interested in the area that PM has chosen to examine, as I'm sure (despite our disagreements here) it is likely to be of interest and guided by a genuine commitment informed by his politics.


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## frogwoman (Jun 26, 2018)

Any tips for writing a research proposal?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Any tips for writing a research proposal?


get some help from a potential supervisor - the man i'm talking to has said he'll help me with it.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 26, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Any tips for writing a research proposal?



Here's advice I was given for a social science proposal.  May be different for other fields:

Keep it short.  Usually it's 1500 words but for one application I had to submit a 2-page proposal.  So being concise is important.

Methods section is most important: what exactly will you be doing, research procedures, are you using creative or inventive methods (always a plus).

Which gaps in the literature are you addressing.

I think my structure was 'research topic' > 'research questions' > 'methods' > 'ethics'.  Whenever I got feedback from my (numerous) failed applications they concentrated most on critiquing the methods section.  Like, I thought I could be quite general and work out the details when I start the PhD, but they wanted really concrete and precise procedures even at the application stage.

If you can put together a decent draft and send it to a potential supervisor, they'll help edit it.

I was also advised about creating several slightly different versions of the proposal for different funding sources.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 26, 2018)

frogwoman which subject area are you applying to.  For some reason I'm thinking history but may have muddled that up.  I'm not sure about methodology stuff in other fields but in social science that's what they seemed to care about.


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## frogwoman (Jun 26, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Here's advice I was given for a social science proposal.  May be different for other fields:
> 
> Keep it short.  Usually it's 1500 words but for one application I had to submit a 2-page proposal.  So being concise is important.
> 
> ...



The one Im looking at is sociology but basically sociology/politics.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 26, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> The one Im looking at is sociology but basically sociology/politics.



Sweet, that advice should apply fairly well then (mine is more or less sociology but in a public health context).


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 26, 2018)

I know you mentioned studying abroad so I don't know about funding.  I was applying to all the ESRC pathways.  So for the ESRC sociology pathway I emphasised what my study would contribute to sociological theory.  But for the ESRC Health pathway I emphasised how the findings could improve healthcare interventions.  Etc etc.  The actual content of my project didn't change much, just slight difference in emphasis.


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## The Pale King (Jun 26, 2018)

I would think about (non exhaustive list)

How to concisely frame your topic/research interests
Main bodies of literature/other researchers whose work you will engage with/whose work yours will speak to
Methods (including practical details if going to archives or doing fieldwork etc
Ethical considerations
To what bodies of knowledge/questions will your work contribute?

These would be the sorts of things I would think about as I began writing the proposal


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## equationgirl (Jun 26, 2018)

It's definitely helpful to identify any gaps in the literature and say how your research will help address them.


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## mango5 (Jun 26, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Something  for the lurkers on this thread (free MOOC 'discovering your PhD potential)  Writing a Research Proposal - Online Course


frogwoman I've heard good things about this free online course


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## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2018)

so i went to see yer man and he said tidy up your proposal and you'll get a place - let's talk at the start of next term. and with a spot of luck i'll get at least an element of funding too.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> It's definitely helpful to identify any gaps in the literature and say how your research will help address them.


i have my little gap  no one else has addressed my area since 1976


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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> It's definitely helpful to identify any gaps in the literature and say how your research will help address them.



I was going to write the same thing. The most important things for the proposal imo are: (1) that it demonstrates good knowledge of the literature in the area you will be researching; (2) it is clear and well written; (3) it has an appropriate and feasible methodology and; (4) that it will contribute something original to the area.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 26, 2018)

I used to always worry about identifying a literature gap, it sounds really difficult, as if you'd need to read everything really carefully and work out what they've missed.

Then I realised: 1) new things are always happening, so your gap can relate to a new development in society, and 2) if you read current papers in your field they will _literally tell you_ in their limitations section what the gaps are and suggest future research ideas.

Very good idea to look at what is being published around your topic in the past year and what future research they suggest.


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## equationgirl (Jun 26, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> so i went to see yer man and he said tidy up your proposal and you'll get a place - let's talk at the start of next term. and with a spot of luck i'll get at least an element of funding too.


Brilliant news, well done


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## mango5 (Jun 26, 2018)

Yes that is good news. Wishing you every success Pickman's model


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## iamwithnail (Jun 27, 2018)

frogwoman I can send you my proposal that got ESRC funded if it's helpful. Agree with the comments above though. 

Mock viva tomorrow, eeeek!


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## frogwoman (Jun 27, 2018)

iamwithnail said:


> frogwoman I can send you my proposal that got ESRC funded if it's helpful. Agree with the comments above though.
> 
> Mock viva tomorrow, eeeek!



Yeah please, that would be useful. I'm still trying to decide on an exact topic


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## chilango (Jun 27, 2018)

Met with my tutor. Annoyingly all my dissertation ideas are viable and valid so no help in narrowing it down!


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## mango5 (Jun 27, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah please, that would be useful. I'm still trying to decide on an exact topic


Pick the one you can write the best proposal for. Keep the others in the back of your mind for the inevitable time when you are expected to have a revelation and change your plans, whether that be topic, theoretical stance or methods  The proposal demonstrates potential. It is not a binding contract.


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## Spod (Jun 28, 2018)

The main thing IMO is identifying a topic of broad interest. Unless you are doing a grounded theory you wont know the exact gap in knowledge that needs filling or the pertinent research questions until you have done the literature review.


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## iamwithnail (Jun 28, 2018)

Had my mock viva today, went better than I expected, and the holes/questions were where I thought they'd do.  I wasn't particularly prepared, so I'm feeling a bit better about the real thing in couple of weeks.


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## frogwoman (Jul 5, 2018)

I've just realised that in my proposal I forgot to cite references for when I was talking about something. I've just submitted it. Should I contact them?


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## Jeff Robinson (Jul 6, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> I've just realised that in my proposal I forgot to cite references for when I was talking about something. I've just submitted it. Should I contact them?



You forgot one or two references or lots? If the latter I would contact and ask if you can re-submit.


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## frogwoman (Jul 6, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> You forgot one or two references or lots? If the latter I would contact and ask if you can re-submit.



Only one or two, and the system appeared to let me re-submit anyway.


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 8, 2018)

A month until my dissertation is due, the heat isn't helping productivity.


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## frogwoman (Jul 8, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> A month until my dissertation is due, the heat isn't helping productivity.


What's it on?


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 8, 2018)

frogwoman said:


> What's it on?



It's about the role of social networks in addiction and recovery, sociology meets public health.


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## The Pale King (Jul 9, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> A month until my dissertation is due, the heat isn't helping productivity.



I can imagine. Well done, Good luck and stick at it - the end is in sight!


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 9, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> I can imagine. Well done, Good luck and stick at it - the end is in sight!



Thanks!  I'm definitely getting there, just slowly.


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 18, 2018)

So close to being finished my first draft.  Just have the discussion/conclusion section left to write.  If I can do that by Friday it leaves a solid two weeks to redraft into something more polished.  I'll be a lot calmer at that stage.


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## mango5 (Jul 18, 2018)

Power to you.


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## iamwithnail (Jul 18, 2018)

VIVA TOMORROW AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH


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## iamwithnail (Jul 18, 2018)

And I'm currently stood in Gatwick waiting on a flight to Scotland that's two hours delayed. Helpful.


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## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2018)

Good luck! (Viva and flight)


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## aqua (Jul 18, 2018)

Good luck! Xx


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 19, 2018)

Good luck iamwithnail


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## redsquirrel (Jul 19, 2018)

iamwithnail said:


> And I'm currently stood in Gatwick waiting on a flight to Scotland that's two hours delayed. Helpful.


Good luck and try to enjoy it. It might be the only time you get to spend 2+ hrs talking about your research to someone really interested in it.


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## iamwithnail (Jul 19, 2018)

It was good. Passed the viva, have some changes/improvements to make and to resubmit. Quite happy with that.


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 19, 2018)

iamwithnail said:


> It was good. Passed the viva, have some changes/improvements to make and to resubmit. Quite happy with that.



Congrats!


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## The Pale King (Jul 19, 2018)

iamwithnail said:


> It was good. Passed the viva, have some changes/improvements to make and to resubmit. Quite happy with that.



Well done! Enjoy the celebrations


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## purves grundy (Jul 19, 2018)

Me as a ghost, Tuesday this week... Six years comes to a close.


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## equationgirl (Jul 25, 2018)

Well done iamwithnail congratulations!!


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## Hollis (Jul 28, 2018)

.


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 29, 2018)

Sent a dissertation draft to my supervisor for feedback.  She has replied really positively and saying we can possibly get more than one publication out of it (good going for a masters thesis).  Just have to make a few suggested changes and get it printed now.  

It gave me a much needed boost, I'd been worrying it wasn't good enough.


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 29, 2018)

If I get a paper published I will die.  That has been a dream of mine.


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## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> If I get a paper published I will die.  That has been a dream of mine.


That's brilliant for a masters thesis. Well done you


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jul 29, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> That's brilliant for a masters thesis. Well done you



Thanks!  My dept are all about publications and pushed me to produce something that could potentially be published.


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## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Thanks!  My dept are all about publications and pushed me to produce something that could potentially be published.


Just bear in mind how pushy they are when you're doing your PhD. You don't want to be pushed down a certain research avenue just because it suits their purposes. Your first goal should always be your PhD. 

That said, if you have approx one publication per chapter, it should make your thesis easier to defend at viva, as the work has already been peer reviewed.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jul 29, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Just bear in mind how pushy they are when you're doing your PhD. You don't want to be pushed down a certain research avenue just because it suits their purposes. Your first goal should always be your PhD.
> 
> That said, if you have approx one publication per chapter, it should make your thesis easier to defend at viva, as the work has already been peer reviewed.



That would be awesome.  

Yeah they can be a bit pushy.  I'm never sure how much it is my PhD and how much I am like an employee whose been recruited to study a certain issue.  I have a large advisory group who all have input into the direction of my research.  Not just my supervisors but representatives from interested organisations etc.  Tbf the guidance so far has been good and produced a better dissertation than I would have independently.


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## Sunset Tree (Jul 30, 2018)

Phew just finished a second draft based on supervisor feedback.  Hoping next feedback will say it's good enough to submit now!


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## mango5 (Aug 1, 2018)

Get research journals through your local library, where they still exist  May be of use to folk not (yet) with academic privilege Access To Research | Academic articles for free at participating local libraries


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 2, 2018)

I have my final feedback on my draft.  If I can motivate myself to sit up tonight and make the corrections, this bad boy could be getting printed tomorrow.

It's not that late, a few hours, I can do this...


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 3, 2018)

1am and I've just reached the results section.  I've never been one of those students who stays up all night on the coffee before deadlines, but I quite fancy it tonight.  It's not due until Monday but would be amazing to finish and have a long weekend off.


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 3, 2018)

Just submitted!


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## The Pale King (Aug 3, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Just submitted!



Get in! Enjoy yourself


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## iamwithnail (Aug 3, 2018)

Have a very well deserved drink/chocolate bar/sleep/all of the above.


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 3, 2018)

I rarely drink but am having a couple of craft beers

I had this idea that I'd have a month off after submission, but my supervisors have other ideas - preliminary fieldwork, ethics applications, presentations... need to see if I can get time off before my PhD formally begins.


----------



## moonsi til (Aug 4, 2018)

Well done. I have enjoyed reading your enthusiasm. I would suggest go out for a walk with no rush to get back.


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 4, 2018)

moonsi til said:


> Well done. I have enjoyed reading your enthusiasm. I would suggest go out for a walk with no rush to get back.



I walk my dog everyday but when I'm under deadline stress it can feel like an imposition - I'll be rushing through it to get back to my work.  It has been nice just having all this free time, lingering at nice spots in the park, taking longer routes.  Loving the lack of pressure.


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 22, 2018)

First proper conference presentation tomorrow


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## mango5 (Aug 22, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> First proper conference presentation tomorrow


Good luck! Generally they are kind to newbies unless you get a self-important prick in the room.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Aug 22, 2018)

mango5 said:


> Good luck! Generally they are kind to newbies unless you get a self-important prick in the room.



Thanks!  Actually shitting it a bit but I tend to be OK when I get up there.


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 24, 2018)

My presentation went OK.  Wasn't spectacular, wasn't terrible.  I've delivered almost the same presentation in a smaller setting really smoothly, but in front of 100 people I think my delivery suffered a little through nerves.  Got through it anyway but was feeling a bit down about it, because there are just so many brilliant people in academia, giving all these sparkling presentations, and mine was just sort of OK (from my perspective). 

Then today I got a really nice email from an academic saying she liked my presentation, thought my topic was very exciting/important, and asking for more detail about my methodologies because she thought they could be used to address some of her own research questions.  So that was a bit of a pick-me-up.

Academia is hard, sometimes it feels like just too much, other times you get a little boost and feel on top of it.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 24, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> My presentation went OK.  Wasn't spectacular, wasn't terrible.  I've delivered almost the same presentation in a smaller setting really smoothly, but in front of 100 people I think my delivery suffered a little through nerves.  Got through it anyway but was feeling a bit down about it, because there are just so many brilliant people in academia, giving all these sparkling presentations, and mine was just sort of OK (from my perspective).
> 
> Then today I got a really nice email from an academic saying she liked my presentation, thought my topic was very exciting/important, and asking for more detail about my methodologies because she thought they could be used to address some of her own research questions.  So that was a bit of a pick-me-up.
> 
> Academia is hard, sometimes it feels like just too much, other times you get a little boost and feel on top of it.



Sounds like it went very well! Getting an email like that is great after your first presentation. Well done


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 24, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Sounds like it went very well! Getting an email like that is great after your first presentation. Well done



Thanks!  The conference was quite taxing in many ways, so much to process.  I was feeling a bit flat about everything, that was a nice email to get.


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## Sunset Tree (Aug 29, 2018)

At the risk of turning this thread into my blog: good meeting with supervisors today.  They didn't say anything about my presentation being terrible so I guess it went OK.  And they were enthusiastic about some of my initial fieldwork observations.

Currently transitioning from masters to PhD student - admin stuff basically.  But it does mean a more impressive email address with my name in it, and a new computer with improved permissions and the ability to VPN in from home.  And a new student card.  It will be good to be officially a PhD student.


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## Sunset Tree (Sep 13, 2018)

Bit of an awkward issue where an academic in the dept seems to think I am encroaching on their research area.  Despite the fact my research is exactly what was stated in the PhD advertisement and my successful proposal.

Our respective research was supposed to be with separate groups of stakeholders in the same org.  The two approaches were supposed to complement each other and answer some broader research questions.  They are saying these broader research questions are their remit alone, nothing to do with me.  

I recently submitted a presentation, and when they saw the title they sent quite an abrupt message asking who OK'd this, cancelling their promise to listen to a practice run-through, and sent their apologies for the presentation itself (claiming to be too busy).  I explained that my supervisors helped me prepare that presentation and that's what they told me to include.

I've since checked with my lead supervisor, who is also very senior in the dept, and he supports my research plans and said not to worry about it, that they're just being 'territorial'.  It's really weird, departmental politics and egos.  Is this just a common thing or should I be more concerned?


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## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> Bit of an awkward issue where an academic in the dept seems to think I am encroaching on their research area.  Despite the fact my research is exactly what was stated in the PhD advertisement and my successful proposal.
> 
> Our respective research was supposed to be with separate groups of stakeholders in the same org.  The two approaches were supposed to complement each other and answer some broader research questions.  They are saying these broader research questions are their remit alone, nothing to do with me.
> 
> ...


I have heard of it before. Trust your supervisor, if they keep sending you emails just tell them to take it up with your supervisor. Point out you will happily arrange a meeting between the three of you to discuss the issues. I suspect you will not hear anything from them.


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## Sunset Tree (Sep 13, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I have heard of it before. Trust your supervisor, if they keep sending you emails just tell them to take it up with your supervisor. Point out you will happily arrange a meeting between the three of you to discuss the issues. I suspect you will not hear anything from them.



This is a good idea.  Doesn't even have to be a confrontational thing, just a meeting to clarify research boundaries.

The worst thing is defended their position by saying 'this is what was agreed at the start'.  Just totally untrue.  The advert included these topics, as did my proposal.  My studentship award letter literally has my project title which explicitly states these research questions.  My profile on the university website also.  

They actually copied my supervisor into the email, I think they genuinely believed I've done something wrong.


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## Sunset Tree (Sep 14, 2018)

In better news I got my masters results yesterday, passed with merit


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## equationgirl (Sep 14, 2018)

Sunset Tree said:


> This is a good idea.  Doesn't even have to be a confrontational thing, just a meeting to clarify research boundaries.
> 
> The worst thing is defended their position by saying 'this is what was agreed at the start'.  Just totally untrue.  The advert included these topics, as did my proposal.  My studentship award letter literally has my project title which explicitly states these research questions.  My profile on the university website also.
> 
> They actually copied my supervisor into the email, I think they genuinely believed I've done something wrong.


If you were wrong your supervisor would have told you by now.


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## Sunset Tree (Sep 14, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> If you were wrong your supervisor would have told you by now.



Absolutely.  I'm not worried about having done anything wrong.  I am worried about ongoing conflict or awkwardness.  The person in question isn't my supervisor, but to muddy things a little, they did supervise my masters thesis.  I am supposed to have an ongoing relationship with them trying to publish a paper from my thesis.  I hope they are cool going forward.


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## 8115 (Oct 10, 2018)

Hi PhD peeps, I have a question. I have a good (vague) idea for a PhD, I did quite well in some studying I did last year so I think I should be able to do it but because I've been away from study for a long time and it's not in the field I did my first degree in, I think I might need to do a masters. How can you fund a masters? Someone told me that you can get student loans for the fees. Is this true? I'm thinking I could do it part time while working if I could cover the fees this way. Thanks.


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## equationgirl (Oct 11, 2018)

8115 said:


> Hi PhD peeps, I have a question. I have a good (vague) idea for a PhD, I did quite well in some studying I did last year so I think I should be able to do it but because I've been away from study for a long time and it's not in the field I did my first degree in, I think I might need to do a masters. How can you fund a masters? Someone told me that you can get student loans for the fees. Is this true? I'm thinking I could do it part time while working if I could cover the fees this way. Thanks.


Universities have scholarships and funded  places so check what's on offer for the courses you are interested in, then apply. Some are fees only , which might work for you if you remain employed.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2018)

just emailed a couple of people to see if they'll do me a reference for a phd application. now on to writing the proposal.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2018)

8115 said:


> Hi PhD peeps, I have a question. I have a good (vague) idea for a PhD, I did quite well in some studying I did last year so I think I should be able to do it but because I've been away from study for a long time and it's not in the field I did my first degree in, I think I might need to do a masters. How can you fund a masters? Someone told me that you can get student loans for the fees. Is this true? I'm thinking I could do it part time while working if I could cover the fees this way. Thanks.


have you had a look at birkbeck (if you're in london)?

masters are dear. but certainly in my area (humanities / history) i'm told you need one to do a phd, but you might find you need to get a distinction to pursue a research degree.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> just emailed a couple of people to see if they'll do me a reference for a phd application. now on to writing the proposal.


and one of them's got back to me to say yes - one to go


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## iamwithnail (Oct 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> have you had a look at birkbeck (if you're in london)?
> 
> masters are dear. but certainly in my area (humanities / history) i'm told you need one to do a phd, but you might find you need to get a distinction to pursue a research degree.



I'd second this quite strongly - although I already had a Masters (politics), when I wanted to shift focus and do a literary crit degree (on political rhetoric), the Unis I was applying to wouldn't take me without a masters in the field, and I definitely couldn't afford it, so I ended up doing something else field-wise for my PhD.  (which turned out to be a mistake, but that's another story)


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## eoin_k (Dec 4, 2018)

Passed with amendments to be submitted in six months. The finish line is in sight.


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## The Pale King (Dec 5, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> Passed with amendments to be submitted in six months. The finish line is in sight.



Well done!


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## iamwithnail (Dec 5, 2018)

Congrats! I'm just about to take a few weeks working part time so I can make my changes and do my final submission.  The end is in sight!


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## kropotkin (Dec 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> just emailed a couple of people to see if they'll do me a reference for a phd application. now on to writing the proposal.


Crazy Trev and Not-Islamophobic Paul?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2018)

kropotkin said:


> Crazy Trev and Not-Islamophobic Paul?


certainly not the latter, and sadly not the former either: although when i've seen him in recent years it's been disappointing how trev does not live up to his crazy rep


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## kropotkin (Dec 5, 2018)

Good I suppose?!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2018)

kropotkin said:


> Good I suppose?!


Yes


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## redsquirrel (Dec 5, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> Passed with amendments to be submitted in six months. The finish line is in sight.


Congrats!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2018)

So I've an interview on Monday


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## kropotkin (Dec 5, 2018)

What's the topic to be? Where will you get funding from?


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## equationgirl (Dec 7, 2018)

Hurrah to eoin_k and iamwithnail and best of luck to Pickman's model


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 19, 2018)

Been to busy to post as the first three months of my PhD have been brutal.  Fast-tracking a lot of usual first-year processes so I can start data-collection earlier.  E.g. usually students submit ethics applications at the end of first-year, but mine has to be submitted this week.  

I had an awesome opportunity to do some paid data analysis on a project with my supervisor.  Real-world research experience and will get my name on a publication so I jumped at the chance, but it's put me under pressure with all my own deadlines.  

Took a tactical power-nap and I'm hunkering down for an all-night writing session.


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## Sunset Tree (Dec 19, 2018)

Still up and finished my chapter. Unfortunately it's about twice the length it should be and in dire need of a second round of editing, at least it's done for now.

One more job to complete today then I'll be off for xmas hols


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## chilango (Dec 19, 2018)

Hopefully have a meeting lined up for an "initial enquiry".

How did the interview go Pickman's model ?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

chilango said:


> Hopefully have a meeting lined up for an "initial enquiry".
> 
> How did the interview go Pickman's model ?


very well ta


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## redsquirrel (Dec 19, 2018)

chilango said:


> Hopefully have a meeting lined up for an "initial enquiry".


Good luck. If you can I'd recommend checking out a few different universities/supervisors. 



Pickman's model said:


> very well ta


Excellent, fingers crossed for you.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Good luck. If you can I'd recommend checking out a few different universities/supervisors.
> 
> Excellent, fingers crossed for you.


cheers - they offered me a place on the day


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## redsquirrel (Dec 19, 2018)

Fantastic. Best of luck.


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## equationgirl (Dec 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> cheers - they offered me a place on the day


Hurrah, fabulous news! Very exciting


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## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2019)

.


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## mango5 (Jan 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> .


Know that feeling.


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## chilango (Jan 21, 2019)

Still ploughing through my MA. Grades are a bit borderline. They vary wildly depey upon how interested I was in that particular module so I know I gave to pull a pretty damn good dissertation out if my arse in order to meet the PhD entry requirements. I also need to persuade my supervisor to agree to take me on for the PhD and to recommend me for admission....and then I have to figure out how the hell I'm gonna pay for it all!

Ah well. Keep on plodding on.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2019)

my supervisor very positive about my funding application


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## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2019)

I took the day off work because I thought my supervisor would want significant revision of my funding application but beyond inserting two Romans one published and a distinction he didn't want to change a thing


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## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2019)

So my department picked my funding application to be one of the ones they're submitting to the assessors. A spot of work before it's sent off but sounds promising


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So my department picked my funding application to be one of the ones they're submitting to the assessors. A spot of work before it's sent off but sounds promising


Well done, fingers crossed.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So my department picked my funding application to be one of the ones they're submitting to the assessors. A spot of work before it's sent off but sounds promising


Sounds positive PM. Good luck


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## chilango (Feb 3, 2019)

Someone has (provisionally, I guess) agreed to be my supervisor and seems quite interested/excited in my ideas. 

Gotta finish the Masters now then....


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## chilango (Mar 26, 2019)

Starting the application process...


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## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Starting the application process...


are you applying for entry this autumn?

afaik the various funding deadlines have gone (certainly the deadlines for both the funding streams available to me have)


----------



## chilango (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> are you applying for entry this autumn?
> 
> afaik the various funding deadlines have gone (certainly the deadlines for both the funding streams available to me have)



Yep. Sept/Oct start.

Missed the ESRC funding deadline, that was back in October I think. But wouldn't have got that anyway. So not too fussed. I'm applying for funding for the fees though and that deadline isn't for a while so fingers crossed there.

Just got to write up my research proposal.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yep. Sept/Oct start.
> 
> Missed the ESRC funding deadline, that was back in October I think. But wouldn't have got that anyway. So not too fussed. I'm applying for funding for the fees though and that deadline isn't for a while so fingers crossed there.
> 
> Just got to write up my research proposal.


Good luck and welcome aboard


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## chilango (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Good luck and welcome aboard



I've not got my ticket to board yet!


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## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> I've not got my ticket to board yet!


you'll get a ticket to ride, no fear


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## redsquirrel (Mar 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Starting the application process...


Good luck.


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## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2019)

Good luck chilango wishing you all the best


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## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

Thanks. Started my research proposal this morning.

Well. I created the document. And set the type styles. And c&ped the section headings.

That counts, right?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Thanks. Started my research proposal this morning.
> 
> Well. I created the document. And set the type styles. And c&ped the section headings.
> 
> That counts, right?


it's all good


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## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

Simultaneously trying to distill a conceptual framework out of my lit review in my master's dissertation and start on the methodology section.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Simultaneously trying to distill a conceptual framework out of my lit review in my master's dissertation and start on the methodology section.


the theoretical underpinning of my project will be supplied by simmel, weber and foucault etc


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## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Simultaneously trying to distill a conceptual framework out of my lit review in my master's dissertation and start on the methodology section.


oh: my supervisor said 'write a draft proposal then send it to me and i'll make suggestions', maybe your guy might do the same?


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the theoretical underpinning of my project will be supplied by simmel, weber and foucault etc



Yeah. I've done a flow chart! Just need to address a bit of text to go with it.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> oh: my supervisor said 'write a draft proposal then send it to me and i'll make suggestions', maybe your guy might do the same?



Yeah. She's supposed to have a had a chat with the the admissions people about whether I need to do a full one or not as we e discussed my ideas a lot already and it follows on from my master's dissertation


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## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I've done a flow chart! Just need to address a bit of text to go with it.


my own phd is largely based on newspaper articles from which i derive a lot of further information which will then be developed by archival research - so perhaps you could say a) where your similar information will come from; b) how you will process it; c) what you'll do with the results from that and whether that will lead you on to further research questions or analysis


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Thanks. Started my research proposal this morning.
> 
> Well. I created the document. And set the type styles. And c&ped the section headings.
> 
> That counts, right?


Oh yes. Keep chipping away at it.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> my own phd is largely based on newspaper articles from which i derive a lot of further information which will then be developed by archival research - so perhaps you could say a) where your similar information will come from; b) how you will process it; c) what you'll do with the results from that and whether that will lead you on to further research questions or analysis



Thanks. Yeah. My methodology is a touch unusual for the subject area. A visual variant of discourse analysis but applied in education/schools. With a heady cocktail of Bourdieu, Debord etc. mixed in.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the theoretical underpinning of my project will be supplied by simmel, weber and foucault etc


Did you have a further work section in your masters, or somewhere where you looked at the limitations of your masters research? You could use those as your starting point for the new research.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Did you have a further work section in your masters, or somewhere where you looked at the limitations of your masters research? You could use those as your starting point for the new research.



I will have them...

...but haven't written them yet!

Because I haven't done the data collection and analysis yet either 

The planned timescale means I'll be submitting the dissertation just before the PhD starts. Which has both upsides (momentum,flow etc.) and downsides (will be working a bit simultaneously like now, and no margin of error).

Another plus is that my dissertation supervisor would be my PhD supervisor and is already treating my work as PhD prep in many ways.

Anyway. I'm heading to the gym shortly. Will plunge back into the books later/in the morning.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Thanks. Yeah. My methodology is a touch unusual for the subject area. A visual variant of discourse analysis but applied in education/schools. With a heady cocktail of Bourdieu, Debord etc. mixed in.


I've no idea what you said but it sounds very impressive.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I've no idea what you said but it sounds very impressive.



Pulling apart the "messages" schools send out looking for ways in which they perpetuate inequality basically.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Did you have a further work section in your masters, or somewhere where you looked at the limitations of your masters research? You could use those as your starting point for the new research.


no, i said that i would use the newspaper resources i based my ma dissertation on as the basis for new research much of which will be genealogical as i will be looking at networks.


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## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Pulling apart the "messages" schools send out looking for ways in which they perpetuate inequality basically.


Still sounds good. My area was engineering /mathematics so not this stuff at all.


----------



## chilango (Apr 3, 2019)

Research proposal written and sent to supervisor for checking


----------



## Yu_Gi_Oh (Apr 9, 2019)

Hello, I'm sorry to barge in here with a question not exactly related to doing a phd, but I have a question about organizing a panel presentation at a symposium and I think you might be the people to help me, if you would. 

My boss wants me and two other people (under my leadership) to write a proposal to deliver a panel presentation at a symposium which will be held in late June. The subject of the presentation would be the evolution and development of the educational programme I run here. My boss is Chinese, so negotiating meaning with him is quite difficult, which is why I'm not asking him to clarify things. 

I've looked up information online about doing a panel, but I still feel confused. Is it actually a research paper, or is it just us talking, perhaps with a Powerpoint? If it is a research paper, exactly how does that translate to the spoken word? Further, how long would a 15 minute presentation be in terms of length of paper? 

I'm just about to submit my dissertation draft for my MA, with my final submission in May, so I'm not totally baffled by academia or anything, but I am feeling out of my depth and pretty anxious about this, so any information would be so gratefully and humbly received!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Hello, I'm sorry to barge in here with a question not exactly related to doing a phd, but I have a question about organizing a panel presentation at a symposium and I think you might be the people to help me, if you would.
> 
> My boss wants me and two other people (under my leadership) to write a proposal to deliver a panel presentation at a symposium which will be held in late June. The subject of the presentation would be the evolution and development of the educational programme I run here. My boss is Chinese, so negotiating meaning with him is quite difficult, which is why I'm not asking him to clarify things.
> 
> ...


15 mins ~1500 words
You can have a powerpoint
You don't have to have one
It can be a summary of research, it needn't be new to you, it will be new to the audience

Speak very slowly and print out your paper at 16-20 point so it's easy to read, but also maintain eye contact with audience members as best you can. Plant a friend you can look at.


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## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

Well, I've submitted a formal application 

...but I'm now shitting it til I get an official response.


----------



## Yu_Gi_Oh (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> 15 mins ~1500 words
> You can have a powerpoint
> You don't have to have one
> It can be a summary of research, it needn't be new to you, it will be new to the audience
> ...



Oh my goodness, I forgot to reply to this. Thank you so much. We are slowly figuring it out.


----------



## chilango (Apr 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Well, I've submitted a formal application
> 
> ...but I'm now shitting it til I get an official response.



Bee offered a place. Which I've accepted!


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Bee offered a place. Which I've accepted!


Hurrah! What fabulous news! Well done you


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Bee offered a place. Which I've accepted!


Congrats! When do you start? 

It will be challenging at times but you should find it enjoyable too.


----------



## chilango (Apr 26, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Congrats! When do you start?
> 
> It will be challenging at times but you should find it enjoyable too.



September.

P/T so I need to find some sort of p/t job as well


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> September.
> 
> P/T so I need to find some sort of p/t job as well


Check the uni library, they might be looking for people.


----------



## Sunset Tree (May 25, 2019)

Managed to clear my to-do list for the first time since starting.  I've asked for some time off before starting anything new.  Literally have burned myself out to the point even simple tasks seem too much effort.  I should have nearly a full month to recharge before doing anything else.  Out-of-office is going on and I'm temp deactivating my twitter (too much work-related shit on there) and forgetting I am even a student for the next month.


----------



## Yu_Gi_Oh (May 26, 2019)

Not a phD, but I just got my dissertation grade, and I've passed my MA with a distinction! 

I guess now I can think about what to do next...


----------



## equationgirl (May 27, 2019)

Brilliant news Yu_Gi_Oh congratulations


----------



## Mation (Jun 5, 2019)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! No PhD in the offing, but I'm trying to finish my final assignment for module 3 of a 2-year course. Making good progress but could really do with a break. Only I can't take more than a few minutes as it's due tomorrow and I haven't done enough. ADHDastic


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 6, 2019)

Had to delay my time off because of one final meeting but as of today emails are off.

Doing a PhD is probably a little harder than I expected.  I think the main difference from taught courses is you can never fully clear your tasks.  In undergrad/masters I could smash my coursework as early as possible in the semester then take it easy.  I've tried to transfer that attitude to a PhD but it's like completing one task leads to another few and it never stops.


----------



## chilango (Jun 6, 2019)

Sunset Tree said:


> it's like completing one task leads to another few and it never stops.



I'm finding that with my Master's dissertation. In a good way. I'm enjoying that aspect tbh.

In other news I've been awarded a bursary to cover the cost of the fees for my PhD


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm finding that with my Master's dissertation. In a good way. I'm enjoying that aspect tbh.
> 
> In other news I've been awarded a bursary to cover the the cost of the fees for my PhD



I kind of enjoyed it at first because I like being busy, but eventually started to mentally burn out.  

Congrats on the bursary!


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 6, 2019)

Congratulations on the bursary chilango nice one

Sunset Tree you have to pace yourself. You also need to try to draw some boundaries around your research topic otherwise it will be never-ending and you won't finish. You also need to map out some tasks and make a rough plan of your next few years. 

This is long distance endurance running, not a sprint.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 7, 2019)

Mation said:


> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! No PhD in the offing, but I'm trying to finish my final assignment for module 3 of a 2-year course. Making good progress but could really do with a break. Only I can't take more than a few minutes as it's due tomorrow and I haven't done enough. ADHDastic


Probably a bit late now but I hope everything went well



Sunset Tree said:


> Doing a PhD is probably a little harder than I expected.  I think the main difference from taught courses is you can never fully clear your tasks.


Time/project management is definitely something that is key to a PhD that you don't have to anything like the same degree at UG/Masters level. Keep on but make sure you do give yourself enough of a break that you re-charge. Sometimes a week or two away from the project will help you get your ideas in better order.



chilango said:


> I'm finding that with my Master's dissertation. In a good way. I'm enjoying that aspect tbh.
> 
> In other news I've been awarded a bursary to cover the cost of the fees for my PhD


Great news on both counts


----------



## Sunset Tree (Jun 7, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Time/project management is definitely something that is key to a PhD that you don't have to anything like the same degree at UG/Masters level. Keep on but make sure you do give yourself enough of a break that you re-charge. Sometimes a week or two away from the project will help you get your ideas in better order



My supervisors said this too.  I've never wanted to ask for time off in case they think I can't cope, but were very supportive when I finally asked.  A break is so important.  The size of the project can be overwhelming and it's sometimes hard to focus on the moment and not think dozens of tasks into the future.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Sunset Tree you have to pace yourself. You also need to try to draw some boundaries around your research topic otherwise it will be never-ending and you won't finish. You also need to map out some tasks and make a rough plan of your next few years.
> 
> This is long distance endurance running, not a sprint.



Definitely agree.  I have a really lucky research topic, in that it is in partnership with an organisation who want the research done.  So I've been able to get a huge head start compared with other students in my cohort, who have to spend their first year working out the details of their project.  It has made my first year particularly brutal because I've done a lot of work that would usually be reserved for second year.

I am hoping this will pay dividends and I'll have an easier second and third year than most. 

It also means I have the potential to collect much more data that is really necessary for a PhD.  It is tempting to do so because this can still be useful in other ways, like publications.  That's where I'll risk doing too much if I'm not careful and continuing into a brutal second and third year too.


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## equationgirl (Jun 7, 2019)

Sunset Tree said:


> Definitely agree.  I have a really lucky research topic, in that it is in partnership with an organisation who want the research done.  So I've been able to get a huge head start compared with other students in my cohort, who have to spend their first year working out the details of their project.  It has made my first year particularly brutal because I've done a lot of work that would usually be reserved for second year.
> 
> I am hoping this will pay dividends and I'll have an easier second and third year than most.
> 
> It also means I have the potential to collect much more data that is really necessary for a PhD.  It is tempting to do so because this can still be useful in other ways, like publications.  That's where I'll risk doing too much if I'm not careful and continuing into a brutal second and third year too.


OK, what I'm about to say will sound blunt, and I'm sorry for that, but you need to hear this. 

Get it out of your head right now that you will have easier second and third years. You are exceptionally unlikely to, if anything, it will be harder. Just because you have a project sponsored by an external organisation does not mean you can sit back and think it will be easy. Sure, they've set out what the want done, but to be awarded a PhD you have to demonstrate via your thesis and viva that you - and you alone - are capable of independent research without needing to be told what to do. You need to make a plan about how you will do this. Are you doing your lit review work thus tear? You should do the bulk of it in your first year so you understand the current state of art well, then continue looking for publications as your research progresses. You cannot leave this part undone. 

With regards to publication, ideally you will publish one or two papers before you submit your thesis. This can help your thesis as the work in the papers will have peer reviewed, and makes it harder for your external examiner to dismiss it. You need to build time into your plan for at least one publication. You might also go into four years. No shame in it, happens a lot but have a plan in case it happens. Panicking will not help you. 

If you haven't already, get a copy of Philips and Pugh 'how to get a PhD'. Read it. Read it again. Listen to what they say and follow it. There's a similar book for social science research. 

I don't want you to fail if you really, really want to get a PhD. But your mindset of coast and cram will let you down unless you correct it now.


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## chilango (Jun 7, 2019)

That Phillips and Pugh book is good. I second the recommendation.

Woods' "Successful writing for Qualitative Researchers" is of broader use than it sounds too.

How does one begin, the very beginning, of the writing for journals process?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> OK, what I'm about to say will sound blunt, and I'm sorry for that, but you need to hear this.
> 
> Get it out of your head right now that you will have easier second and third years. You are exceptionally unlikely to, if anything, it will be harder. Just because you have a project sponsored by an external organisation does not mean you can sit back and think it will be easy. Sure, they've set out what the want done, but to be awarded a PhD you have to demonstrate via your thesis and viva that you - and you alone - are capable of independent research without needing to be told what to do. You need to make a plan about how you will do this. Are you doing your lit review work thus tear? You should do the bulk of it in your first year so you understand the current state of art well, then continue looking for publications as your research progresses. You cannot leave this part undone.
> 
> ...


i've been collecting secondary material for a long time now, there's no other way if you don't want to be sandbagged with an unsuspected source (history: other subjects are available). and then i've spent time not just reading it but making a 'want' list from the bibliographies and noting the locations of archives. i've also spent ages collecting primary sources, at ~2,000 newspaper articles - and there's at least another 2,000 to collect, then index the lot and make sense of them. Sunset Tree, this isn't a super-master's, it's a step or two up.


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## equationgirl (Jun 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> That Phillips and Pugh book is good. I second the recommendation.
> 
> Woods' "Successful writing for Qualitative Researchers" is of broader use than it sounds too.
> 
> How does one begin, the very beginning, of the writing for journals process?


A journal paper tells a story, a short story if you like. A thesis can be a collection of short stories or a longer novel. 

For a journal, look at the journal guidelines for the journal you want to submit to. It's helpful to do this first because the last thing you want to have to do is reformat or reorganise a manuscript when you're done. Also, some guidelines specify the outline of the paper and may reject it if this isn't followed. 

I tend to start with the introduction and mini lit review sections. So you want to set the scene first, introduce the ready to the topic, lay out a few basics, talk about what other people are doing and how your paper fits into that overall picture. 

I try to just start writing things down. You can craft and hone the perfect paragraphs later. Just get writing. 

I then might make a few bullet points in the other sections as I remember things to write. This is so I don't forget to mention certain things I want to talk about. 

I tend to work through from start to finish, introduction to conclusions, but you might find it easier to start with the conclusions, or whatever. You will find the style that suits you the more you write. 

And make note if the journal sets a limit on the number of words or the number of pages. They tend to stick to them.


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## The Pale King (Jun 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> That Phillips and Pugh book is good. I second the recommendation.
> 
> Woods' "Successful writing for Qualitative Researchers" is of broader use than it sounds too.
> 
> How does one begin, the very beginning, of the writing for journals process?



A good way to get started can be to do book reviews - a lot of journals keep the book review parts for early career or grad student people (and it is very hard to get senior people to commit to book reviews. Usually you are just looking at 1000 words, and if you review in your area of study/expertise, you can help build your profile and writing style through doing reviews or review articles, where you discuss several books over maybe 2000 words. Keep an eye on new texts coming out and  get in touch with some book review editors in relevant journals with a pitch to review.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> OK, what I'm about to say will sound blunt, and I'm sorry for that, but you need to hear this.
> 
> Get it out of your head right now that you will have easier second and third years. You are exceptionally unlikely to, if anything, it will be harder. Just because you have a project sponsored by an external organisation does not mean you can sit back and think it will be easy. Sure, they've set out what the want done, but to be awarded a PhD you have to demonstrate via your thesis and viva that you - and you alone - are capable of independent research without needing to be told what to do. You need to make a plan about how you will do this. Are you doing your lit review work thus tear? You should do the bulk of it in your first year so you understand the current state of art well, then continue looking for publications as your research progresses. You cannot leave this part undone.
> 
> ...



I have a good understanding of the structure and expectations of a PhD.  I also have a team of supervisors and an advisory committee who are supportive of me deviating from that structure somewhat since I have the opportunity to start data collection earlier in the PhD.  There is a robust system of progress reviews etc.  Everyone is agreed that I have done more than is expected in my first year but its been done in a planned way.

I've written a lit review, methods chapter, ethics application, research protocols, started fieldwork, drafted one paper as lead author, and co-authored another which should be published soon.  

The external organisation haven't set out what needs to be done.  I have responsibility for the research design, theoretical approach etc.  What the external partner offers is access to a pool of participants.  Basically, this provided opportunity start fieldwork straight away.  This is all mapped out though and I have clear cut-off dates to cease recruitment etc.

I do agree that it is unlikely my second/third year will be in any way easy.  It's just that I have a solid head start on a lot of important work, which made my first year pretty tough, but I now won't have to do this work in second year (e.g. ethics applications, protocols, data management plans).  

I do appreciate your advice but I am not just going off-piste or misunderstanding the nature of a PhD.  One reason I've been able to do so much is because the PhD is quite a smooth continuation from my masters, so I was well-versed in the theory, had piloted the methods etc, and was able to get a running start.


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 7, 2019)

I would say that the amount of work I've had in my first year has been almost too much.  I was partially jealous of students getting to use their first year to read lots of literature and do some writing, but partially relieved to be getting such a head start.  One of my supervisors encourages me to slow down a bit and others are quite happy that I'm getting ahead of schedule.  They are all very supportive of me taking a break of a few weeks, which I had to request recently as I don't think I could've kept going at that pace.


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## equationgirl (Jun 8, 2019)

Sunset Tree said:


> I would say that the amount of work I've had in my first year has been almost too much.  I was partially jealous of students getting to use their first year to read lots of literature and do some writing, but partially relieved to be getting such a head start.  One of my supervisors encourages me to slow down a bit and others are quite happy that I'm getting ahead of schedule.  They are all very supportive of me taking a break of a few weeks, which I had to request recently as I don't think I could've kept going at that pace.


I don't know how many supervisors you have but I really think you should talk to the one that asked you to slow down a bit. Why did they say that?AAre they worried you'll burn yourself out?


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## Sunset Tree (Jun 8, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I don't know how many supervisors you have but I really think you should talk to the one that asked you to slow down a bit. Why did they say that?AAre they worried you'll burn yourself out?



I don't think they have pressing concerns about me burning out.  It was because I was talking about wanting to do as much data collection as possible as my biggest fear is always not having enough data.  They just reminded me that I have another two years to collect data and I don't need to feel like I need to interview every potential participant straight away.  I did take that advice on board and relax my interview schedule a bit.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Jun 10, 2019)

Hello, PhD people.

Do you mind if I ask another possibly foolish question about delivering a talk at a symposium? 

So, if I wanted to say:

_Mignolo (2002, 14) discusses the double-bind_ ...

When I actually speak, do I actually say "Mignolo, two thousand and two, page fourteen, discusses the double-bind...", or do I just skip over the citation and say "Mignolo discusses the double-bind..." ?


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## The Pale King (Jun 10, 2019)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Hello, PhD people.
> 
> Do you mind if I ask another possibly foolish question about delivering a talk at a symposium?
> 
> ...



I would just skip over the citation and say Mignolo discusses the double bind in (name of book). No need for page numbers or that. Is it Walter Mignolo? Cool if so!


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## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2019)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Hello, PhD people.
> 
> Do you mind if I ask another possibly foolish question about delivering a talk at a symposium?
> 
> ...


no need to even bother with the name of the book, just say that "where mignolo addresses the issue of the double bind s/he says..." as you propose at the end of your post. anyone who wants to know more can ask a question at the end or accost you over coffee


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Jun 10, 2019)

Thank you, thank you, you clever people!  

The Pale King it is Walter Mignolo.   "The Locus of Enunciation" (p. 14).


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## The Pale King (Jun 10, 2019)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Thank you, thank you, you clever people!
> 
> The Pale King it is Walter Mignolo.   "The Locus of Enunciation" (p. 14).



Nice! Good luck with it!


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Jun 10, 2019)

The Pale King said:


> Nice! Good luck with it!



Thank you!


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## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2019)

enrolled today


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## Hollis (Jul 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> enrolled today



Dare we ask the topick of this PhD?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2019)

Hollis said:


> Dare we ask the topick of this PhD?


Victorian London


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## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Victorian London


The slums of St Giles? Or the rookeries?


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## nino_savatte (Jul 22, 2019)

The single piece of advice I would give anyone who's doing a PhD is this: don't get it perfect, get it done. 

That is all.


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## Spod (Jul 26, 2019)

3 years into a part-time PhD and our firm has been bought out. Not had the conversation with the new employers yet. Fuck it- I will pay for the rest myself if I have to.


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## equationgirl (Jul 26, 2019)

Spod said:


> 3 years into a part-time PhD and our firm has been bought out. Not had the conversation with the new employers yet. Fuck it- I will pay for the rest myself if I have to.


Wait and see what happens, unless there's a deadline for payments coming up.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 9, 2019)

Of the two people I've told about wanting to do a PhD:
My boyfriend told his family without asking me, who I do not get on with as they tried to get my to quit my industry job so I could work in retail and told him I needed to get a part time job while I did an MA so we can save up for a house
My mate from a previous min wage job made a quip about me being in education forever and avoiding work


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## mango5 (Aug 9, 2019)




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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2019)

muscovyduck said:


> Of the two people I've told about wanting to do a PhD:
> My boyfriend told his family without asking me, who I do not get on with as they tried to get my to quit my industry job so I could work in retail and told him I needed to get a part time job while I did an MA so we can save up for a house
> My mate from a previous min wage job made a quip about me being in education forever and avoiding work



My thoughts: 

1. Your boyfriend needs a kick in the bollocks 
2. Given the soul sapping reality of it why shouldn't you avoid work forever? But, a PhD, as you know/will find out is not merely avoiding the slow death sentence of regulated work, it's also a lonely, demanding, life changing, sapping and rigorous process that only those who have done one will ever fully know. So smile graciously at glib idiots.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> 1. Your boyfriend needs a kick in the bollocks
> 2. Given the soul sapping reality of it why shouldn't you avoid work forever? But, a PhD, as you know/will find out is not merely avoiding the slow death sentence of regulated work, it's also a lonely, demanding, life changing, sapping and rigorous process that only those who have done one will ever fully know. So smile graciously at glib idiots.



I feel VALIDATED thank you


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## mango5 (Aug 9, 2019)

And so you should! I think it's an utterly self-indulgent thing to do in many ways, but it's not for the workshy.


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2019)

mango5 said:


> I think it's an utterly self-indulgent thing.



Explain.


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## mango5 (Aug 9, 2019)

It is for me.
An obsession that I stick with through thick and thin with no likely improved job prospects or personal harmony, that other people are kinda sorta interested in but not as much as me, in a toxic institution (Academia) stuffed with self-importance and shit flowing downwards. I could stop any time I want, but I don't. No-one is that bothered apart from me. It affects my physical and mental health negatively (terrible posture and rapidly failing eyesight... I'm putting off a cataract operation until next year) and is effectively a 'career break' which doesn't play well in middle age. I am indulging my own curiosity, substantially subsidised by the British taxpayer. I submit next spring.
Your mileage may vary.


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2019)

mango5 said:


> It is for me.
> An obsession that I stick with through thick and thin with no likely improved job prospects or personal harmony, that other people are kinda sorta interested in but not as much as me, in a toxic institution (Academia) stuffed with self-importance and shit flowing downwards. I could stop any time I want, but I don't. No-one is that bothered apart from me. It affects my physical and mental health negatively (terrible posture and rapidly failing eyesight... I'm putting off a cataract operation until next year) and is effectively a 'career break' which doesn't play well in middle age. I am indulging my own curiosity, substantially subsidised by the British taxpayer. I submit next spring.
> Your mileage may vary.



I get all of that, and agree with most of it - especially your comment about the utterly foul culture within academia- but I wouldn’t call that self-indulgent. It’s admirable, disciplined and just because your area isn’t ‘hot’ now doesn’t mean it won’t be at some point


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## mango5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Oh my area is hot, no-one else will touch it! In academic lingo I get to call it 'paradigmatic insecurity' lol. 
I feel it's an utterly self-indulgent project tho. Maybe the wrong words but I haven't found better ones yet.


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Oh my area is hot, no-one else will touch it! In academic lingo I get to call it 'paradigmatic insecurity' lol.
> I feel it's an utterly self-indulgent project tho. Maybe the wrong words but I haven't found better ones yet.



It doesn’t sound self indulgent to me in the slightest. You need to think about the value of your work and ideas. These are not a self indulgence.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It doesn’t sound self indulgent to me in the slightest. You need to think about the value of your work and ideas. These are not a self indulgence.


I think it depends whether you view self indulgence as inherently negative or a loaded phrase - I'm quite comfortable being selfish and therefore I would read 'self indulgent' when talking about yourself as meaning you put yourself first rather than as a self criticism but then no one has ever described me as being self indulgent so I get the privilege of it not being emotionally charged


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## mango5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Yes agree muscovyduck I am not a selfish person and for me doing the PhD is a luxury I get to indulge myself with.
In other news this week I've had a book chapter accepted for a multidisciplinary Routledge Handbook for my broad topic. Annoyingly the deadline is 8 weeks before my thesis submission date


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2019)

Good luck on the book chapter mango5 congratulations  

muscovyduck I hope you go on to do a PhD, I think you would enjoy it. It is a hard thing to do, and a lot of work but worth it. If you choose to do it that's nobody's business but yours.


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## The Pale King (Aug 10, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Yes agree muscovyduck I am not a selfish person and for me doing the PhD is a luxury I get to indulge myself with.
> In other news this week I've had a book chapter accepted for a multidisciplinary Routledge Handbook for my broad topic. Annoyingly the deadline is 8 weeks before my thesis submission date



Well done that's great!


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## The Pale King (Aug 10, 2019)

muscovyduck said:


> Of the two people I've told about wanting to do a PhD:
> My boyfriend told his family without asking me, who I do not get on with as they tried to get my to quit my industry job so I could work in retail and told him I needed to get a part time job while I did an MA so we can save up for a house
> My mate from a previous min wage job made a quip about me being in education forever and avoiding work



Do it mate. Folk are sometimes threatened by people who work on things they are passionate about, often with good reason - as smokey says, a gracious smile goes a long way - study Richard Gere in more or less any role for tips.

Crack on, you will be brilliant!


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## muscovyduck (Aug 11, 2019)

Thanks everyone, I'm definitely doing one, but it'll be in a year or so to give me the chance to weed out some of the less supportive people from my life because it's a big issue for me right now. All your comments have been so comforting


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## chilango (Sep 1, 2019)

Finally submitted my MA dissertation.

It's been "finished" since June, but I couldn't let go of it!

So,  awaiting results and the official PhD start now.

Just need some p/t work


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## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> Finally submitted my MA dissertation.
> 
> It's been "finished" since June, but I couldn't let go of it!
> 
> ...


See if your uni library are looking for shelf stackers.


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## chilango (Sep 1, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> See if your uni library are looking for shelf stackers.



They're not at the moment. But that would be ideal.


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## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> They're not at the moment. But that would be ideal.


Keep an eye out, you never know.


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## chilango (Sep 17, 2019)

I'm about to pitch an idea for an article to a Journal  They've put out a call for submissions for a special issue in my area of research.

Never done this before. Not even started the PhD yet (awaiting Masters results)

Any tips?


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Sep 17, 2019)

Good luck, Chilango!

I really thought about applying for a PhD for this semester, but I've just applied for a Postgraduate Certificate in Teaching in Higher Education instead. It doesn't excite me as such, but I'll be looking for a new job next year and this seems like a more immediate benefit to my CV.  

It's just a postgradute cert, so if it's not too strenuous, I might apply for a PhD to start in the Spring semester. I found the perfect program and supervisor already. I just need to convince them that I'm perfect too.


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2019)

Does anyone mind if I have a not so humble brag in here for a minute?



Spoiler



I got 95% for my MA Dissertation. I'm pretty speechless and can't really believe it.


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## mango5 (Oct 2, 2019)

Wow. No need for humility. Time to consider publication!


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Wow. No need for humility. Time to consider publication!



That's what the markers' comments said. And to consider presenting it.

I've not quite got my head around it yet.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

chilango said:


> That's what the markers' comments said. And to consider presenting it.
> 
> I've not quite got my head around it yet.


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## mango5 (Oct 3, 2019)

chilango said:


> That's what the markers' comments said. And to consider presenting it.
> 
> I've not quite got my head around it yet.


I love it when I get to write something like that on MA dissertation feedback


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## redsquirrel (Oct 3, 2019)

chilango said:


> Does anyone mind if I have a not so humble brag in here for a minute?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fantastic.


----------



## izz (Oct 5, 2019)

chilango said:


> Does anyone mind if I have a not so humble brag in here for a minute?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have only an inkling how much work, insight, work, ideas, typing, research and work went into that, there is no way you should be in the slightest bit humble. Well bloody done, consider yourself thumped repeatedly on the back by way of congratulations


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## Hollis (Oct 5, 2019)

Blimey 95% is incredible!  Well done.


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## equationgirl (Oct 7, 2019)

Fantastic news chilango a brilliant achievement. Go you!


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## chilango (Oct 11, 2019)

I've started. I think...


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

so i'm working my way through the newspapers from the 1870s, been reading about the paris commune and bloody week


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

found this: wondered if any of the marxists here could confirm whether this was one karl marx, or if it's just scuttlebutt 


irishman 10 june 1871


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## equationgirl (Oct 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> found this: wondered if any of the marxists here could confirm whether this was one karl marx, or if it's just scuttlebutt
> 
> View attachment 186701
> irishman 10 june 1871


Not Karl marx according to this source:

The Paris Commune


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Not Karl marx according to this source:
> 
> The Paris Commune


i thought that might be the case, i checked a couple of marx resources and no arrests on the continent in 1871 leaped out at me. cheers!


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## izz (Oct 17, 2019)

Where do you work, if you're studying or writing ? I'm trying to finish a thesis at home but it's nearly impossible, with interruptions and noise and so on - how do you all manage ?


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## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

izz said:


> Where do you work, if you're studying or writing ? I'm trying to finish a thesis at home but it's nearly impossible, with interruptions and noise and so on - how do you all manage ?



At home. In the Uni library. In the PhD office. I've even used voice recognition to dictate into my docs via my phone as I've been walking along.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2019)

izz said:


> Where do you work, if you're studying or writing ? I'm trying to finish a thesis at home but it's nearly impossible, with interruptions and noise and so on - how do you all manage ?


Might be worth checking if your university has a writing up space, I know of an increasing number of universities that are making such spaces available to students.


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## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Might be worth checking if your university has a writing up space, I know of an increasing number of universities that are making such spaces available to students.



Ours does.

Designated desks (limited supply) for students with nowhere else and plenty of hotdesks for PhD students.


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## mango5 (Oct 18, 2019)

Various universitiy libraries, various public libraries, various public spaces like the National theatre. My criteria are decent toilets, good desk/table sizes, somewhere to eat a packed lunch and access to free drinking water. I don't work in cafés but I don't generally mind background noise.

ETA one of the biggest issues I have with hot desks is my uni doesn't provide lockers to keep even basic items like a mug or books. If I'm lugging my stuff around with me every day I like to have variety and choice about the length and direction of travel from home (eg closer in winter so I can have a hot lunch).


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## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

izz said:


> Where do you work, if you're studying or writing ? I'm trying to finish a thesis at home but it's nearly impossible, with interruptions and noise and so on - how do you all manage ?


archives (local authority archives very good, would recommend camden or hackney)
specialist libraries (i find most uni libraries too distracting to work in)
work (where i've come in in the evening and typed away: access to all the books and only the occasional colleague passing through)


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2019)

If I'm working with books I own: at home.
If working with library books: at the library (saves me carting them back and forth)
If I'm working in the computer: could be either or the PhD office hotdesks (more to be part of the "research community" than any practical advantage).
The PhD offices in my department are fine and have never been busy whenever I've been. There's a decent cafe/bar. Common rooms, kitchen etc. It's - architecturally - a nice space too.

The main library is newly done up. Closer to home and bustling. There's usually space, computers, desks etc. Onsite cafe etc etc.

There's also space in the Graduate school. I haven't been there yet. Havent needed to.

I'm lucky it seems.


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## mango5 (Oct 18, 2019)

To be fair, it's not my department's fault that I have a five hour round trip (which makes a locker important) and so prefer to work nearer to home. Also many years of juggling various freelance/part-time work make me used to working in different places through the week.
Top tip: if you are likely to be in various locations regularly and/or have several universities in your home town, be sure to get a SCONUL card for other institutions. I think I have 5 University library cards with various forms of access


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## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

mango5 said:


> To be fair, it's not my department's fault that I have a five hour round trip (which makes a locker important) and so prefer to work nearer to home. Also many years of juggling various freelance/part-time work make me used to working in different places through the week.
> Top tip: if you are likely to be in various locations regularly and/or have several universities in your home town, be sure to get a SCONUL card for other institutions. I think I have 5 University library cards with various forms of access


To be clear, there are no longer sconul cards. You apply by online to your library (look on website for something like using other libraries) and as a research student you'll get an email saying you've sconul band a access. You'll need to take a printout of the email, or show email on phone or tablet, to library staff at library you wish to join. Always check entry requirements, some places eg lse require you to do something before you visit.


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## mango5 (Oct 18, 2019)

Yes I do not have a SCONUL account, was not aware of any such thing. But every university library I have approached with support of my home university has given me access and borrowing rights, so worth checking out. 
My mate who is a Cambridge student can't get SCONUL access as I think her college does not reciprocate. 
I have alumna access for LSE so never tried another way


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## estahelp (Oct 22, 2019)

Just get on with it! Completed the phd with minor amendments, now looking for work desperately.


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## Spod (Nov 12, 2019)

I only ever go in to the uni for supervisory team meetings and loan the odd research design text book (once every 1-2 months). All the journal articles and many of the key texts are online, I dont need a lab so dont need to go anywere near the uni. I am doing it part-time with a full-time job so everythings done flat on my back on the laptop. And fingers crossed its coming on well. I do think being older and having done a masters gives you a massive leg up. No way I could have done this at 21 just after my bachelors degree as I had neither the work-ethic nor the academic skills.


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## iamwithnail (Nov 18, 2019)

I did mine remotely, so tended to just work at home or in the British library, which is a lovely place to spend your time doing research.


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## chilango (Nov 18, 2019)

I'm living mine so far.  Detouring into Heraclitus and Protagoras right now from Negri and Zizek ...and someone's letting me!!!


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## Mapped (Nov 18, 2019)

iamwithnail said:


> I did mine remotely, so tended to just work at home or in the British library, which is a lovely place to spend your time doing research.



My favourite place, although currently sitting at home on the sofa with my laptop doing some non-formal study.


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## izz (Nov 18, 2019)

Submitted my master's yesterday. Have been feeling slightly mad with the overwork (full time job as well). Big thanks to High Voltage who's been there throughout.


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## High Voltage (Nov 18, 2019)

And if I ever needed a reason NOT to do any form of further / higher education ever - it's been watching Mrs Voltz (aka izz) doing her Masters

You all must be mad - MAD I TELL YOU


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## High Voltage (Nov 18, 2019)

Or should that be Mistresses


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## chilango (Nov 18, 2019)

Got my official MA result the other day


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## izz (Nov 22, 2019)

Nearly a week since I submitted my thesis - and already I have my sanity back ! Last night was the first I didn't wake up thinking of what to include or how to word things


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## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

The life of a PhD student    (afternoon library trip)


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## The Pale King (Nov 22, 2019)

Looks like bliss! Enjoy...


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## izz (Nov 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> The life of a PhD student    (afternoon library trip)
> 
> View attachment 190727


bit short on the coffee - unless this is an early picture of course


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## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

izz said:


> bit short on the coffee - unless this is an early picture of course



Put it this this way, the guy at the Library cafe knows me by name and my coffee order. There are almost 20,000 students here.


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## izz (Nov 24, 2019)

Bored now.


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## iamwithnail (Jan 11, 2020)

I'm in the last three weeks of making my changes.  It gets resubmitted on Feb 8th.  I sort of wish I'd never agreed to do this (whole thing), but specifically going on the PhD.  Retrospectively, I'd be happy to have plea-bargained out with an MPhil.  I keep going back to sunk cost time but there's still no guarantees here about getting the doctorate.  Fuck it.  Three more weeks.


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## mango5 (Jan 12, 2020)

Wishing you strength iamwithnail, well done for sticking with it. From what I've seen, resubmissions that are actually delivered are dealt with kindly.


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## iamwithnail (Jan 12, 2020)

Here's hoping! I've added about 5k to it since I started the rewrite, since it was pretty light on first submission.


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## equationgirl (Jan 14, 2020)

Nearly there iamwithnail keep going it will soon be over. I echo what mango5 says about resubmissions as the non completion rate can be quite high. Everyone wants you to pass.


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## chilango (Jan 14, 2020)

I've officially gone full-time as my plan to pick up some half-decent p/t work alongside it has failed miserably. Do have a few bits n bobs but nowhere near 20hpw. Fingers crossed theres some research assistant stuff heading my way soon too.


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## iamwithnail (Feb 1, 2020)

Resubmit on Thursday evening.  Five fucking days. 
Currently sat on the sofa with my laptop and enough paper to deforest Brazil.


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## equationgirl (Feb 1, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Resubmit on Thursday evening.  Five fucking days.
> Currently sat on the sofa with my laptop and enough paper to deforest Brazil.


You an do it, this is the last thing you will have to do. I'm rooting for you


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## izz (Feb 5, 2020)

My Masters supervisor says I 'might want to consider undertaking studies for a doctorate'

I could WEE I'm so thrilled, I never thought I could be good at this stuff   

I doubt I'll be able to (money, I'd have to stop working so would need some other money source) but it's still a huge compliment


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## izz (Feb 5, 2020)

Sorry people - every so often my computer's on a go-slow and I end up mulitple posting


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## iamwithnail (Feb 5, 2020)

Two fucking days. (Today and tomorrow)

All hands to the pump here, got my other half checking references (RefWorks is shite, or maybe I can't use it, but either way, I was missing an embarrassing number of references in my bibliography) and been proofreading and adding sections.  Currently sitting finding every change that I've made (still in track changes) and referencing it in the cover letter.


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Two fucking days. (Today and tomorrow)
> 
> All hands to the pump here, got my other half checking references (RefWorks is shite, or maybe I can't use it, but either way, I was missing an embarrassing number of references in my bibliography) and been proofreading and adding sections.  Currently sitting finding every change that I've made (still in track changes) and referencing it in the cover letter.


Keep going, the finish line is in sight.


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## izz (Feb 5, 2020)

A chap at work marks PhD submissions and he says nobody ever passes first time, there's always some rework. Don't know how true that is but hope it brings you comfort iamwithnail


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## iamwithnail (Feb 5, 2020)

Oh, this is the resubmission.  Last ditch finish-it-and-throw-shit-at-the-wall


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2020)

izz said:


> A chap at work marks PhD submissions and he says nobody ever passes first time, there's always some rework. Don't know how true that is but hope it brings you comfort iamwithnail


He speaks the truth. There's always spelling mistakes and reference issues. And now that it's really easy to reprint there's more likely to be lots of stuff to fix. Before, when everything was typed, lots of examiners would accept changes using Tippex, especially if graphs were involved.


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## iamwithnail (Feb 6, 2020)

Was just saying to one of the folks I was on my masters with, that this has been quite an embarrassing process.  

The original as submitted was full of half finished sentences, literally hundreds of typos, and I was missing something like 50-60% of my references - we found about 120 things in the text that weren't in the biblio.    I've no idea how i did that, I think I must have exported the wrong group from Refworks when I did it.  I've added about 25% more material to it (it was quite short to begin with), and restructured two entire chapters completely.  I get that there are always changes, but at this point I think I was fortunate to get offered a resubmission. 

Steadily working through my to-do list. Hoping to be done by dinner time and then i'll go through for a final proof-read and sense check.


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2020)

iamwithnail if your supervisor read it they should have picked up on that type of stuff first time round. Sounds like a draft was submitted by mistake.

Mine was done in Latex which uses the BibTex reference system. References are a lot of work whatever you use.


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## iamwithnail (Feb 6, 2020)

Think that's mostly on me, I didn't give in drafts after the first half of it, as I had quite a fractious relationship with the other bits of the supervisory team, and although I got on with my main supervisor, the deal was they'd all review my stuff, and we had constant arguments (with the other two, it was a tripartite deal as I was the first student at the new research centre) about methods and approach, and I just cut them out in the latter half.  Eta: what's done is done, it's my work at the end of the day.


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Think that's mostly on me, I didn't give in drafts after the first half of it, as I had quite a fractious relationship with the other bits of the supervisory team, and although I got on with my main supervisor, the deal was they'd all review my stuff, and we had constant arguments (with the other two, it was a tripartite deal as I was the first student at the new research centre) about methods and approach, and I just cut them out in the latter half.  Eta: what's done is done, it's my work at the end of the day.


So long as it's all sorted now, it will be ok. Supervisory relationshis can be tense. Mine told me I wasn't working enough, that I'd never be done in four years. When I handed him one of my chapters, which was the longest and  contained the most work, he said 'you have done rather a lot after all'. It was like he had no faith in me.


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## iamwithnail (Feb 7, 2020)

It is done. Sent.


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## equationgirl (Feb 7, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> It is done. Sent.


Hurrah! Well done you.


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## chilango (Mar 3, 2020)

So, the other day I went to a meeting about what I thought was going to be some research assistant work...turned out to be a chance to deliver paid research projects to a client 

However, I've now got to figure how to charge them! (it's not too bad as I know their budget) anybody done this before?

My supervisor will help me with the project itself which is good. And it will be published and promoted by the client. Again, good, but a little daunting.


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## equationgirl (Mar 3, 2020)

chilango said:


> So, the other day I went to a meeting about what I thought was going to be some research assistant work...turned out to be a chance to deliver paid research projects to a client
> 
> However, I've now got to figure how to charge them! (it's not too bad as I know their budget) anybody done this before?
> 
> My supervisor will help me with the project itself which is good. And it will be published and promoted by the client. Again, good, but a little daunting.


Speak to the commercialisation team at your uni. They can help with rates and will have things like insurance in place.

Go you!


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## The Pale King (Mar 3, 2020)

chilango said:


> So, the other day I went to a meeting about what I thought was going to be some research assistant work...turned out to be a chance to deliver paid research projects to a client
> 
> However, I've now got to figure how to charge them! (it's not too bad as I know their budget) anybody done this before?
> 
> My supervisor will help me with the project itself which is good. And it will be published and promoted by the client. Again, good, but a little daunting.



Well done!


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## izz (Mar 8, 2020)

Hello PhD-urbs. I've been thinking about what my Masters supervisor said about doing a PhD but know nothing about the particulars - how do people get funding ? How much funding can you get - enough to live on ? Do you tend to do other jobs alongside ? Can you do it all (or most of the literature research) at home ? And how do people's careers look after the PhD - do people tend to work in academia or back in industry ? 

I have done some google-research but the answer looks like 'it depends'...


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## eoin_k (Mar 8, 2020)

Funding depends on the field: humanities are mainly funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council; social sciences by the ESRC; STEM subjects and medical sciences are different again. A lot of the UK research council funding is allocated through doctoral training consortia e.g.White Rose DTP. A handful of universities are given £x million over a given period to administer between themselves. A good first step would be to see if your old department is a member of one of these, or has access to other sources of funding. (Alternatively do the same for a department where your supervisor/someone else you know now works, or a department that you would like to study in.) The deadline for funding may have just passed, but putting 6-12 months work in to preparing an application makes sense, so now isn't a bad time to start thinking for September 2021.
Research Council funding in the UK is c. £16,000 p.a. for three years tax free. This means that if you do some part-time work your earnings below the tax threshold won't be effected by this either.
Most people take more like four years to complete. Take longer without getting an extension or going part time and you jeopardise your future potential employment in the university sector, especially if you have had funding, because student's completing on schedule is a metric used by the research councils to evaluate universities for future funding.
Picking up relevant work experience is helpful, i.e. university teaching, but otherwise the less work you have to do the more time you can dedicate to the PhD.
How much you will be able to work from home will vary depending on the subject and the standard of the library's you gain access to through different universities, but you will be able to take books out and access some journals online, so there should be some scope for this.
PhDs don't tend to have much if any positive impact on people's earning potential on average. Outside academia demand from employers is generally limited outside certain very specific sectors. Anyone considering an academic career at the moment should have a good look at the state of the job market and employment relations in higher education. The strike on at the moment isn't surprising.


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## izz (Mar 8, 2020)

eoin_k said:


> Funding depends on the field: humanities are mainly funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council; social sciences by the ESRC; STEM subjects and medical sciences are different again. A lot of the UK research council funding is allocated through doctoral training consortia e.g.White Rose DTP. A handful of universities are given £x million over a given period to administer between themselves. A good first step would be to see if your old department is a member of one of these, or has access to other sources of funding. (Alternatively do the same for a department where your supervisor/someone else you know now works, or a department that you would like to study in.) The deadline for funding may have just passed, but putting 6-12 months work in to preparing an application makes sense, so now isn't a bad time to start thinking for September 2021.
> Research Council funding in the UK is c. £16,000 p.a. for three years tax free. This means that if you do some part-time work your earnings below the tax threshold won't be effected by this either.
> Most people take more like four years to complete. Take longer without getting an extension or going part time and you jeopardise your future potential employment in the university sector, especially if you have had funding, because student's completing on schedule is a metric used by the research councils to evaluate universities for future funding.
> Picking up relevant work experience is helpful, i.e. university teaching, but otherwise the less work you have to do the more time you can dedicate to the PhD.
> ...


Thank you eoin_k, that's _massively _ helpful


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## Hollis (Mar 8, 2020)

Out of interest how did everyone pick their PhD topic?  Was it something of overriding interest to you?  Something you'd worked on before, something that funding was available for, or something a supervisor recommended?

Did you have more than one thing you were thinking about - how did you make a final choice?


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## chilango (Mar 8, 2020)

izz said:


> how do people get funding ?
> How much funding can you get - enough to live on ?
> Do you tend to do other jobs alongside ?
> Can you do it all (or most of the literature research) at home ?
> And how do people's careers look after the PhD - do people tend to work in academia or back in industry ?



I got a bursary from my University to cover the fees. That's all.

I have to do other jobs on the side. Mostly at the University. It wouldn't be enough to live in, but it supplements my wife's wages.

I could do most of it at home. I mostly go onto Campus for a change of scene and to feel more a part of things. There are some sessions I have to in for though.

Career wise. I was at a bit of a dead end prior to the PhD, so anything afterwards would be a bonus tbh. I'm not over optimistic. But I don't care. I'm relishing the PhD. That'll do.


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## chilango (Mar 8, 2020)

Hollis said:


> Out of interest how did everyone pick their PhD topic?  Was it something of overriding interest to you?  Something you'd worked on before, something that funding was available for, or something a supervisor recommended?
> 
> Did you have more than one thing you were thinking about - how did you make a final choice?



Doing my Masters Dissertation and continuing on that topic.

Self-funding, so I am not beholden to anyone topic wise.


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## mango5 (Mar 22, 2020)

If anyone is looking for a bit of company while doing academic work this week, there's a decent group working on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays using Slack. https://virtualwritingretreat.co.uk


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## Sunset Tree (Apr 2, 2020)

Hollis said:


> Out of interest how did everyone pick their PhD topic?  Was it something of overriding interest to you?  Something you'd worked on before, something that funding was available for, or something a supervisor recommended?
> 
> Did you have more than one thing you were thinking about - how did you make a final choice?



Honed in on an area of interest during masters study.  Identified a willing potential supervisor and wrote a few proposals for research council funding.  Then I was lucky that a project was being advertised that matched quite closely with my topic, so I wrote a proposal for that.


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## Sunset Tree (Apr 2, 2020)

Anyone else had their fieldwork interrupted by covid?  I'm doing an ethnography and can't even visit the site now.  Looking at zoom interviews for my last few participants but will miss out on a fair amount of participant observation.


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## Cold Harbour (Apr 2, 2020)

Sunset Tree said:


> Anyone else had their fieldwork interrupted by covid?  I'm doing an ethnography and can't even visit the site now.  Looking at zoom interviews for my last few participants but will miss out on a fair amount of participant observation.


Have your funding body been in touch? (If you have one!). I have had lots of contact from AHRC about delaying or extending research periods, as also have fieldwork which definitely won’t happen for ages now.


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## chilango (Apr 2, 2020)

Sunset Tree said:


> Anyone else had their fieldwork interrupted by covid?  I'm doing an ethnography and can't even visit the site now.  Looking at zoom interviews for my last few participants but will miss out on a fair amount of participant observation.



No. I'm lucky.

My research is designed around not wanting to have to have any contact with anyone anyway! So I can plough on quite happily.

I did have two paid and publishable projects being set up which involved interviews, observations etc. which I guess are now on hold.


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## Sunset Tree (Apr 2, 2020)

Cold Harbour said:


> Have your funding body been in touch? (If you have one!). I have had lots of contact from AHRC about delaying or extending research periods, as also have fieldwork which definitely won’t happen for ages now.



I don't think my funder has been in direct contact.  Plenty of messages from my university indicating that they are willing to be as supportive as needed to make sure people can still complete their research.  I think I can avoid an extension as I have a decent amount of data already.



chilango said:


> No. I'm lucky.
> 
> My research is designed around not wanting to have to have any contact with anyone anyway! So I can plough on quite happily.
> 
> I did have two paid and publishable projects being set up which involved interviews, observations etc. which I guess are now on hold.



I'm reasonably lucky in that I've been collecting data for nearly a year and had planned to stop soon anyway.  I'm losing a final month of participant observation which isn't fatal to the project.  It's more annoying because it restricts the depth of my findings etc.  I was just starting to get to that point in ethnography of 'insider' status and learning some really interesting things.


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## iamwithnail (Apr 2, 2020)

I changed mine because I could get funding for it. I was originally going to do something about political discourse in dystopian fiction (which I was passionate about and researching in my own time) but changed to discourse of surveillance because I could get funding for it. I do not recommend doing that. Do the thing you'll give a shit about three years into it rather than desperately trying to get it over and done with.

ETA: in reply to Hollis


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## mango5 (Apr 2, 2020)

Someone I studied with a few years ago had all her fieldwork shut down because of Ebola. She had to fight for a three month extension while the university had dithered for six months. She ended up doing a theory of methodology for her thesis. External funders were asleep at the wheel. She was gutted.


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## Sunset Tree (Apr 7, 2020)

mango5 said:


> Someone I studied with a few years ago had all her fieldwork shut down because of Ebola. She had to fight for a three month extension while the university had dithered for six months. She ended up doing a theory of methodology for her thesis. External funders were asleep at the wheel. She was gutted.



I've heard funders being shit about stuff like this.  I'm thinking since this is affecting everyone there's more chance of a fair response.  Already heard some student requests for a blanket funding extension but I'm not sure that will happen.  A lot of people will probably do systematic reviews etc instead of fieldwork to finish on time.


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2020)

When I was doing my PhD I requested an extension due to ill health. I was denied as the head of department said they had already given an extension to another student. I think they only budgeted for one student in any year needing an extension. I was lucky to have six months of funding saved up and my parents paid my mortgage for six months. I managed, but it was no thanks to the university. 

I'm not aware of any funder having any time of plan to help students who are unable to work on their PhD. Universities have hardship funds but a lot of those seem to be for undergraduates. I really hope it's changed.


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## Sunset Tree (Apr 7, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> When I was doing my PhD I requested an extension due to ill health. I was denied as the head of department said they had already given an extension to another student. I think they only budgeted for one student in any year needing an extension. I was lucky to have six months of funding saved up and my parents paid my mortgage for six months. I managed, but it was no thanks to the university.
> 
> I'm not aware of any funder having any time of plan to help students who are unable to work on their PhD. Universities have hardship funds but a lot of those seem to be for undergraduates. I really hope it's changed.



You can get the hardship fund as a postgrad at my uni.  International (non-EU) students are excluded from this I believe.

I've heard of people being granted paid sick leave but without any extension.  So basically if you're off for six months you'll still be paid, but if you then need an extra six months to complete your studies, you'll have no income for that part.  I recently saw an AHRC funded student challenge this and win an extension but that may have been a one-off.


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## chilango (Apr 7, 2020)

I've no idea regarding funding but our Uni seems quite relaxed about granting extensions.

Hopefully I won't need one, but I should keep an eye on my COR just in case.


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## equationgirl (Apr 8, 2020)

That said, the Scottish government has announced a £5m fund for students suffering financial hardship through coronavirus.


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## Cold Harbour (Apr 10, 2020)

I saw this from UKRI, if Unis haven’t let people know Government announces support for PhD students as a result of coronavirus disruption - UK Research and Innovation


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## Sunset Tree (Apr 10, 2020)

Cold Harbour said:


> I saw this from UKRI, if Unis haven’t let people know Government announces support for PhD students as a result of coronavirus disruption - UK Research and Innovation



Thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen it.  

I notice this isn't a blanket extension and only applies to students due to finish by 31st March '21.  Students like me who are due to finish in Sept '21 are bang in the middle of our 2nd year, an unfortunate time to have data collection suspended.  Would be nice to get an extension for anybody at any stage of a PhD, not just those in their final year.  It does say they'll review it in a few months though.


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## Cold Harbour (Apr 10, 2020)

Sunset Tree said:


> Thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen it.
> 
> I notice this isn't a blanket extension and only applies to students due to finish by 31st March '21.  Students like me who are due to finish in Sept '21 are bang in the middle of our 2nd year, an unfortunate time to have data collection suspended.  Would be nice to get an extension for anybody at any stage of a PhD, not just those in their final year.  It does say they'll review it in a few months though.


Yes, it does seem a bit unhelpful to restrict it to 3rd years, who in theory will be writing up and have all their data collected (not that my 3rd year went anywhere near that smoothly).


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## equationgirl (Apr 10, 2020)

Cold Harbour said:


> Yes, it does seem a bit unhelpful to restrict it to 3rd years, who in theory will be writing up and have all their data collected (not that my 3rd year went anywhere near that smoothly).


Plus some people have a writing up period (6-12 months) what about them?


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## 8115 (Apr 16, 2020)

Should have a place on a masters beginning in the autumn. I'd quite like to do a phD afterwards if it all goes well. I couldn't see a masters thread. If nothing else, it will be good because I love studying and it should give me a much needed kick up the bum.


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## equationgirl (Apr 16, 2020)

8115 said:


> Should have a place on a masters beginning in the autumn. I'd quite like to do a phD afterwards if it all goes well. I couldn't see a masters thread. If nothing else, it will be good because I love studying and it should give me a much needed kick up the bum.


Congratulations! What's the masters in?


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## 8115 (Apr 16, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Congratulations! What's the masters in?


Mental Health.


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## izz (Apr 18, 2020)

8115 said:


> Should have a place on a masters beginning in the autumn. I'd quite like to do a phD afterwards if it all goes well. I couldn't see a masters thread. If nothing else, it will be good because I love studying and it should give me a much needed kick up the bum.


Thrilling ! Well done and keep us updated


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## 8115 (Apr 20, 2020)

Got my formal offer this morning. Agh. I mean, they told me I would get one at my phone interview so it's not a surprise. I'm just nervous because you can only do one masters (I'm getting a masters loan for the fees so I only really have one shot). But I think it's the right thing to do.


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## izz (May 5, 2020)

Well,I passed my master's thesis, it wasn't a good mark but it was a pass and I know what I did wrong, so the upside is I can add letters after my name but I'm still feeling like I let myself down.


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## equationgirl (May 5, 2020)

izz said:


> Well,I passed my master's thesis, it wasn't a good mark but it was a pass and I know what I did wrong, so the upside is I can add letters after my name but I'm still feeling like I let myself down.


You didn't, you passed and have your masters. Letting yourself down would have been failing everything.

Celebrate your hard work and achievements. You did it!


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## izz (May 9, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> You didn't, you passed and have your masters. Letting yourself down would have been failing everything.
> 
> Celebrate your hard work and achievements. You did it!


Its extremely kind of you to say so, but I'll still mighty pissed off with myself    

Just the kinda gal I am


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## iamwithnail (May 14, 2020)

Passed.  Finally.  Supervisor sent me an 'informal heads up' this morning, and then the departmental admin sent round a congratulations email about half an hour ago, so it's official. Tadaaaaa.

(Started in Sept 2012, with two sabbaticals of 6 months each, a 7 month wait for viva and and 18 month resubmission period. HUGE chunk of my life.)


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## Winot (May 14, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Passed.  Finally.  Supervisor sent me an 'informal heads up' this morning, and then the departmental admin sent round a congratulations email about half an hour ago, so it's official. Tadaaaaa.
> 
> (Started in Sept 2012, with two sabbaticals of 6 months each, a 7 month wait for viva and and 18 month resubmission period. HUGE chunk of my life.)



Congratulations!


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## Roadkill (May 14, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Passed.  Finally.  Supervisor sent me an 'informal heads up' this morning, and then the departmental admin sent round a congratulations email about half an hour ago, so it's official. Tadaaaaa.
> 
> (Started in Sept 2012, with two sabbaticals of 6 months each, a 7 month wait for viva and and 18 month resubmission period. HUGE chunk of my life.)



Yay!   Congratulations!


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## redsquirrel (May 14, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Passed.  Finally.  Supervisor sent me an 'informal heads up' this morning, and then the departmental admin sent round a congratulations email about half an hour ago, so it's official. Tadaaaaa.
> 
> (Started in Sept 2012, with two sabbaticals of 6 months each, a 7 month wait for viva and and 18 month resubmission period. HUGE chunk of my life.)


Congrats


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## equationgirl (May 14, 2020)

Massive Congratulations Dr iamwithnail , really well done


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## frogwoman (Jun 1, 2020)

I was meant to be applying for a PhD but it really wasnt happening this week due to stress  and I've missed the deadline tonight, will it be ok if i send the application tomorrow or in the next few days? I'd rather spend more time on it and do a good job than rush it


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## equationgirl (Jun 1, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> I was meant to be applying for a PhD but it really wasnt happening this week due to stress  and I've missed the deadline tonight, will it be ok if i send the application tomorrow or in the next few days? I'd rather spend more time on it and do a good job than rush it


I would send it in as quickly as possible, I wouldn't wait a few days. Put a covering note that says you were unable to get it on time due to ill health, but submitted as soon as you were able to. Don't give more detail.

To be honest I doubt they're strictly keeping the deadline given everything but taking an extra fee days basically gives two fingers to the deadline, and there will be deadlines in a PhD programme.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 1, 2020)

What EG said


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## frogwoman (Jun 1, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> I would send it in as quickly as possible, I wouldn't wait a few days. Put a covering note that says you were unable to get it on time due to ill health, but submitted as soon as you were able to. Don't give more detail.
> 
> To be honest I doubt they're strictly keeping the deadline given everything but taking an extra fee days basically gives two fingers to the deadline, and there will be deadlines in a PhD programme.



Thanks, I knew this was the answer, I emailed them last night. I got halfway through last night and will do the rest when I finished work.


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## chilango (Jun 19, 2020)

Heh. I've just cited Breaking Bad in a bit about Althusser.


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## chilango (Jul 6, 2020)

Just a paragraph or so shy of 50k written now, over 400 references in my database (not all used as things stand) hopefully going for CoR early in the Autumn.   

How's everyone else doing?


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## Larry O'Hara (Jul 7, 2020)

Just noticed this thread by chance. My PhD was entirely self-funded and got no help from my supervisor at all. However, on the plus side, my actual supervisor was a wonderful little book (just checked still in print at £9.95 called ‘How to get a PhD’ by Estelle Phillips and David Pugh. I particularly liked the chapter on ways of not getting a PhD. It answered all my questions about form, viva etc. Can not recommend it highly enough.


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## chilango (Jul 7, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Just noticed this thread by chance. My PhD was entirely self-funded and got no help from my supervisor at all. However, on the plus side, my actual supervisor was a wonderful little book (just checked still in print at £9.95 called ‘How to get a PhD’ by Estelle Phillips and David Pugh. I particularly liked the chapter on ways of not getting a PhD. It answered all my questions about form, viva etc. Can not recommend it highly enough.



Yeah, a useful book. Picked mine up for a couple of quid in a charity shop.


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Just noticed this thread by chance. My PhD was entirely self-funded and got no help from my supervisor at all. However, on the plus side, my actual supervisor was a wonderful little book (just checked still in print at £9.95 called ‘How to get a PhD’ by Estelle Phillips and David Pugh. I particularly liked the chapter on ways of not getting a PhD. It answered all my questions about form, viva etc. Can not recommend it highly enough.


An excellent book I've recommended on this thread, it really did get me through mine.


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## mango5 (Jul 7, 2020)

I can recommend this group to anyone looking for some structure and peer support. I've been using it several times a week in recent months. It used to be free and now it's £3 a day but well worth it. 


			https://virtualwritingretreat.co.uk/


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## iamwithnail (Jul 7, 2020)

Anxiously loitering around here, still waiting on my certificate from the uni.


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## iamwithnail (Jul 14, 2020)

Christ almighty, still waiting.  Had an email from uni asking for loads of documentation, and was this maybe in after the deadline because they didn't have it (which they did), took an intervention from my supervisor to get them back on track with a sort of 'examiners have approved it and waived a second viva, here are the documents, please just do the administration' email.  So, still waiting but inching closer. I just want the goddamn bit of paper.


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## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2020)

iamwithnail said:


> Christ almighty, still waiting.  Had an email from uni asking for loads of documentation, and was this maybe in after the deadline because they didn't have it (which they did), took an intervention from my supervisor to get them back on track with a sort of 'examiners have approved it and waived a second viva, here are the documents, please just do the administration' email.  So, still waiting but inching closer. I just want the goddamn bit of paper.


Could they be waiting for ratification of the examiners' opinion from a committee, or are they just being bureaucrats?


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## iamwithnail (Jul 14, 2020)

Just being bureaucrats tbh.  Ts crossed and appropriate letters dotted.  Part of it is they screwed up the procedure when I resubmitted, and told me it was fine to send it electronically when it should have been reprinted, and I got an email 4 days after I'd handed in, basically saying "where is it?", and again they were about to make me go through a whole process of doing that (at a significant cost, as well). My supervisor was acting Head of Department at the time and said "don't be so ridiculous", so they recanted, and it looks like it's an echo of that particular problem.  Uni admin, eh?

tl;dr - they advised me the wrong process for handing in at the time, and are struggling to reconcile the two things.


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## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2020)

Yeah that's the bit that annoyed me about submitting, the cost of printing - just at the point when you have no money at all.


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## chilango (Mar 2, 2021)

Bumping 'cos I've just done my CoR.

Was surprisingly gruelling, in a good way.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Bumping 'cos I've just done my CoR.
> 
> Was surprisingly gruelling, in a good way.


It's a bit like your viva, stressful but enjoyable. (Or at least a viva should be)


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## chilango (Apr 21, 2021)

How's everyone getting along?

I'm doing my data analysis (deconstructing images) at the moment and enjoying it immensely.

Just need to promote my work a bit via conferences/papers etc. I've made a couple of pitches for writing articles but they don't seem to be getting anywhere....


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## Hollis (May 3, 2021)

Quite amusing


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## mango5 (Feb 8, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah that's the bit that annoyed me about submitting, the cost of printing - just at the point when you have no money at all.


Covid exceptions still in place so no printing required at the moment. I submitted by email this morning. It's been about a million years since I started.  Certainly lots more work to be done but at least I'm not chained to my desk for the next couple of months.


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## equationgirl (Feb 8, 2022)

mango5 said:


> Covid exceptions still in place so no printing required at the moment. I submitted by email this morning. It's been about a million years since I started.  Certainly lots more work to be done but at least I'm not chained to my desk for the next couple of months.


Yay! Well done you!


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## iamwithnail (Feb 9, 2022)

Oh awesome mango5 ! Congrats!


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## chilango (Jul 15, 2022)

I've finished writing it! Yay! Very last words were a Marx quote of course.

Obviously got a shit tonne of revisions, editing and filling in gaps to do before I submit in the Autumn, but phew.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2022)

chilango said:


> I've finished writing it! Yay! Very last words were a Marx quote of course.
> 
> Obviously got a shit tonne of revisions, editing and filling in gaps to do before I submit in the Autumn, but phew.


Congratulations, now you can go out and play on Monday


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah that's the bit that annoyed me about submitting, the cost of printing - just at the point when you have no money at all.


The trick is to work in a university where you can get your printing for free


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## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The trick is to work in a university where you can get your printing for free


The printing bit was easy enough because I did work in said uni at the time.

Unfortunately the bindery had closed some years previously so it was bound off site and that was eye wateringly expensive at the time.

ETA . I meant binding in my earlier post too, damn covid brain


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## Skim (Jul 15, 2022)

Oh, I didn’t know this thread existed! 

I’ve just finished my 4th year (part-time) and about to start writing up my empirical chapters. Feeling fairly confident about what I’m doing and very pleased with the data I collected during fieldwork. This is such a relief, because the first two years were really difficult: trying to work out the object of my enquiry, where I positioned myself in the literature and making hard methodological decisions. 

Feel very lucky to have had two excellent supervisors in a close-knit department and with really good peer support. I’ll miss it all when I eventually finish; on the other hand, I don’t want to be in the writing-up stage for so long that I start going insane.

Don’t know if I want to stay working in the HE sector: feeling very pessimistic about permanent job prospects. Currently weighing up whether to apply for a postdoc or just to focus efforts on a non-academic role that can better use my skills.


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## chilango (Jul 15, 2022)

I'm still planning on getting my AFHEA just in case the HE job market eases up, but it doesn't look great, so I've got a job outside academia lined up for now.


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## chilango (Jul 15, 2022)

I'm still planning on getting my AFHEA just in case the HE job market eases up, but it doesn't look great, so I've got a job outside academia lined up for now.


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## Skim (Jul 15, 2022)

chilango said:


> I'm still planning on getting my AFHEA just in case the HE job market eases up, but it doesn't look great, so I've got a job outside academia lined up for now.


I was meant to do mine in autumn term, then my uni suspended the scheme, just at the point I’d got my PG Cert 😬 Hopefully it will run again in 22/23 so I can get it done, whatever happens after the PhD.


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## redsquirrel (Jul 15, 2022)

I've finished writing it! Yay! Very last words were a Marx quote of course.


chilango said:


> Obviously got a shit tonne of revisions, editing and filling in gaps to do before I submit in the Autumn, but phew.


Congrats chil.

And you too Skim


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## Skim (Jul 15, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> I've finished writing it! Yay! Very last words were a Marx quote of course.
> 
> Congrats chil.
> 
> And you too Skim


Thanks, but congratulations will only be in order when I’ve finished the bloody thing!


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Jul 16, 2022)

I'm starting a PhD in the coming academic year.  I'm sure it'll be fine.


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## chilango (Jul 16, 2022)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> I'm starting a PhD in the coming academic year.  I'm sure it'll be fine.


I'm sure you will too!

What's it on?


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Jul 16, 2022)

chilango said:


> I'm sure you will too!
> 
> What's it on?



Education and Social Justice.  I'm actually a bit excited.


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## chilango (Jul 16, 2022)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Education and Social Justice.  I'm actually a bit excited.


Oooh. Mine too (sorta). Depending on your focus, I've got a tonne of .pdfs you might find helpful.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Jul 16, 2022)

chilango said:


> Oooh. Mine too (sorta). Depending on your focus, I've got a tonne of .pdfs you might find helpful.



I want to focus on Composition Studies! What's your focus?


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## chilango (Jul 16, 2022)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> I want to focus on Composition Studies! What's your focus?


Deconstructing school marketing images looking for signifiers of social class/cultural capital/classed pedagogy


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## mango5 (Jul 16, 2022)

Skim said:


> Thanks, but congratulations will only be in order when I’ve finished the bloody thing!


Yep. I keep telling people that it's not real until the paperwork is completed, could be a year post-submission for me.


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## muscovyduck (Oct 9, 2022)

Ok it's happening. I'm going to apply to do a PhD.

How many applications did yous make before you were successful?


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## Skim (Oct 9, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok it's happening. I'm going to apply to do a PhD.
> 
> How many applications did yous make before you were successful?


I don’t know if I’d call them formal applications as such, but it was third time lucky for me trying to find a supervisor. One said he would be happy to supervise me but couldn’t (complicated answer about the ways the uni faculty was organised); another said he couldn’t take on more PhD candidates at present. As it happened, both of them eventually left the UK to take overseas posts, so they wouldn’t have worked out anyway. Then I contacted another potential supervisor with my thesis idea and she replied within the week with “I’ll supervise you” and the uni application was just a formality. No interview, just met for a coffee and decided to go for it.


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## Brainaddict (Oct 9, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok it's happening. I'm going to apply to do a PhD.
> 
> How many applications did yous make before you were successful?


Are you going for funding? That's the trickier bit than finding a supervisor in my experience. First time I got two possible supervisors but no funding. Had to wait till the following year to get a supervisor plus funding. It's not easy to work out who has money for scholarships so you need to ask around.


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## chilango (Nov 3, 2022)

I submitted the other day. Almost 3 years on the dot.

Now I wait


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## Sunset Tree (Nov 9, 2022)

Passed with minor corrections recently. Secured an academic post which starts soon. I have been working in a third sector research post and almost considered staying there for the greater job security. Perhaps foolishly I am just drawn to academia, I'd regret it if I didn't give it a go.


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