# Protesters seize Birkenhead county court, and arrest judge.



## xes (Mar 7, 2011)

This is going on at the moment, so now news links as of yet that I know of.

Around 1000 people have turned up at Berkenhead county court, have arrested a judge and seized the building. This is the leafelet they're handing out...







People laying down infront of police vans, one protester has reportedly been run over, and has spinal injuries.

apparently this radio link is covering it, but I have no sound at work so can't verify that.
http://tnsradio.com/?p=1


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

freemen of the land? Some balls tbf.


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Freemen of the Land bollocks


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## Santino (Mar 7, 2011)

Are these the same kind of people who think they can avoid paying tax by describing themselves freemen on the land?


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## Santino (Mar 7, 2011)

Great minds...


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Freemen of the Land bollocks


 
I'm laughing at the judge arrest though.


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## killer b (Mar 7, 2011)

the british constitution group appear, at first glance, to be mentals.


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## fractionMan (Mar 7, 2011)

only two clicks to david ike, but good on em anyway


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## xes (Mar 7, 2011)

Hadn't even noticed the FotL bit. Oh well, power to them anyway.


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## Yossarian (Mar 7, 2011)

xes said:


> Around 1000 people have turned up at Berkenhead county court, have arrested a judge and seized the building. This is the leafelet they're handing out.


 
If a thousand people have genuinely turned up at Birkenhead county court, arrested a judge, and seized the building, then I'll cheerfully chop all my limbs off and donate them to the cause.

Otherwise, I'm going to keep those limbs attached to my body and call you a deluded bullshitter...


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## killer b (Mar 7, 2011)

where did you source this info xes?


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## xes (Mar 7, 2011)

Yossarian said:


> If a thousand people have genuinely turned up at Birkenhead county court, arrested a judge, and seized the building, then I'll cheerfully chop all my limbs off and donate them to the cause.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm going to keep those limbs attached to my body and call you a deluded bullshitter...


 Quoted, so there's no getting out of this limb chopping......Apparently Al Jazeera are covering it too, but again, no sound at work so I can't check that till I get in.


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

this would be all over the news if true


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## xes (Mar 7, 2011)

killer b said:


> where did you source this info xes?


 
A thread on another forum.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 7, 2011)

Don't know what to make of this lot. The few I've met seem to be permanently pleased with themselves and tbf they've pulled a few pretty handy stunts and exposed some of the daftness of our legal system in the process. Trouble is they mostly only seem to bother when it's in their personal interests somehow, not always tax dodging mind you but generally fairly petty stuff. People have clearly put in a lot of homework on this stuff and it would be nice to see some of it used for the greater good somehow...

e2a: And 'lawful rebellion' sounds like a bit of an oxymoron. Certainly doesn't sound like any fun.


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## killer b (Mar 7, 2011)

_which_ other forum?


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## mancboy (Mar 7, 2011)

Tunisia, Egypt, Libya... The Wirral

I can see a progression here. The cries of 'freedom' are getting ever closer


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> Don't know what to make of this lot. The few I've met seem to be permanently pleased with themselves and tbf they've pulled a few pretty handy stunts and exposed some of the daftness of our legal system in the process. Trouble is they mostly only seem to bother when it's in their personal interests somehow, not always tax dodging mind you but generally fairly petty stuff. *People have clearly put in a lot of homework on this stuff* and it would be nice to see some of it used for the greater good somehow...



What stuff?  A load of made up old bollocks?


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## xes (Mar 7, 2011)

Here's a local news paper piece on it
http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8893981.Hundreds_gather_in_Birkenhead_in_mass_protest/?ref=mr

and it seems to be over
http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8...side_Birkenhead_county_court_comes_to_an_end/


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## agricola (Mar 7, 2011)

Apparently 300 people were involved:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...-and-attempt-to-arrest-judge-100252-28293866/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12668444


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## xes (Mar 7, 2011)

killer b said:


> _which_ other forum?


 
a well known conspiracy debunking website.


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

xes said:


> Here's a local news paper piece on it
> http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8893981.Hundreds_gather_in_Birkenhead_in_mass_protest/?ref=mr
> 
> and it seems to be over
> http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8...side_Birkenhead_county_court_comes_to_an_end/



what a load of old bollocks, man didn't want to pay his council tax so gets a load of deluded fools to stand in a road


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## agricola (Mar 7, 2011)

Also, what mentalism is the reference to section 61?  Are there barons involved in this protest?



> 61. Since moreover for [the love of] God, for the improvement of our kingdom, and for the better allayment of the conflict that has arisen between us and our barons, we have granted all these [liberties] aforesaid, wishing them to enjoy those [liberties] by full and firm establishment forever, we have made and granted them the following security: namely, that the barons shall elect twenty-five barons of the kingdom, whomsoever they please, who to the best of their ability should observe, hold, and cause to be observed the peace and liberties that we have granted to them and have confirmed by this our present charter; so that, specifically, if we or our justiciar or our bailiffs or any of our ministers are in any respect delinquent toward any one or trangress any article of the peace or the security, and if the delinquency is shown to four barons of the aforesaid twenty-five barons, those four barons shall come to us, or to our justiciar if we are out of the kingdom, to explain to us the wrong, asking that without delay we cause this wrong to be redressed. And if within a period of forty days, counted from the time that notification is made to us, or to our justiciar if we are out of the kingdom, we do not redress the wrong, or, if we are out of the kingdom, our justiciar does not redress it, the four barons aforesaid shall refer that case to the rest of the twenty-five barons, and those twenty-five barons, together with the community of the entire country, shall distress and injure us in all ways possible — namely, by capturing our castles, lands, and possessions and in all ways that they can — until they secure redress according to their own decision, saving our person and [the person] of our queen and [the persons] of our children. And when redress has been made, they shall be obedient to us as they were before. And any one in the land who wishes shall swear that, for carrying out the aforesaid matters, he will obey the commands of the twenty-five barons aforesaid and that he, with his men, will injure us to the best of his ability; and we publicly and freely give licence of [thus] swearing to every one who wishes to do so, and to no one will we ever prohibit [such] swearing. Moreover, all those of the land who of themselves and by their own free will are unwilling to take the oath for the twenty-five barons, with them to distress and injure us, we will by our mandate cause to swear [such an oath] as aforesaid. And if any one of the twenty-five barons dies or departs from the land, or in any other way is prevented from carrying out these aforesaid matters, the rest of the twenty-five barons aforesaid shall by their own decision choose another in his place, who is to be sworn in the same way as the others. Moreover, in all the matters entrusted to those twenty-five barons for execution, if perchance the same twenty-five are present and disagree among themselves in some respect, or if certain of those summoned are unwilling or unable to be present, that which the majority of those present may provide or command shall be held as settled and established, just as if all twenty-five had agreed to it. And the aforesaid twenty-five shall swear that they will faithfully observe all that has been set forth above. And neither of ourself nor through others will we procure from any one anything whereby any of these concessions and liberties may be revoked or diminished; and should anything of the sort be procured, it shall be null and void, and we will never make use of it either of ourself or through others.



http://www.constitution.org/sech/sech_044.htm


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## Yossarian (Mar 7, 2011)

xes said:


> Here's a local news paper piece on it
> http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8893981.Hundreds_gather_in_Birkenhead_in_mass_protest/?ref=mr
> 
> and it seems to be over
> http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8...side_Birkenhead_county_court_comes_to_an_end/



Looks like I get to walk away with my limbs intact to call you a bullshitter another day.

Seriously, what do these 'Freeman on the Land' people hope to accomplish?


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## MrSki (Mar 7, 2011)

Looks like they have gone home.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12668444


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Yossarian said:


> Looks like I get to walk away with my limbs intact to call you a bullshitter another day.
> 
> Seriously, what do these 'Freeman on the Land' people hope to accomplish?


 
The right to be parasites and not pay council tax, by the looks of it.


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## agricola (Mar 7, 2011)

Some background on the main chap involved:

http://www.nocounciltax.com/courts/wirral-judge-tells-council-prove-case-council-tax-hearing/


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> Some background on the main chap involved:
> 
> http://www.nocounciltax.com/courts/wirral-judge-tells-council-prove-case-council-tax-hearing/


 

what a load of old shite


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## XR75 (Mar 7, 2011)

So is council tax.


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## agricola (Mar 7, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> what a load of old shite


 
Off with their heads!


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

xes said:


> Hadn't even noticed the FotL bit. Oh well, power to them anyway.


 
exhoting briitons and constables to help them. The language is 100% FotLer, I'd thought you of all people would have spotted it right off


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

XR75 said:


> So is council tax.


 
so is your mum


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

Yossarian said:


> Looks like I get to walk away with my limbs intact to call you a bullshitter another day.
> 
> Seriously, what do these 'Freeman on the Land' people hope to accomplish?


 
basically they are right libbers who have decided quite mentally that the original magna carta and the commonlaw stuff is some pure good independant power to hark back at. Leaving aside that this is obviously mental they actually show quite an amusingly conservative view although they think they are radicals.


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## smokedout (Mar 7, 2011)

i saw this thread title and thought fuck i hope its not those daft freeman twats


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 7, 2011)

XR75 said:


> So is council tax.


 
I hate schools and having my rubbish collected.


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## emanymton (Mar 7, 2011)

So basically this was the British equivalent of Americas right wing militias.


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## Maurice Picarda (Mar 7, 2011)

And that is why every city should have a regiment of Hussars on permanent standby, sabres at the ready.


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## junglevip (Mar 7, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> I hate schools and having my rubbish collected.


 
Yeah me too!  Down with schools and rubbish


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

emanymton said:


> So basically this was the British equivalent of Americas right wing militias.


 
those nuts hold the constitution as the ultimate arbiter of right and truth. The UK FoTL sorts are actually asking to bring back something the american right libbers would find horrific- a state of common law endorsed by the crown


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> And that is why every city should have a regiment of Hussars on permanent standby, sabres at the ready.


 
Crude. Far cruder than managed consent, domination of the propaganda war and total dominance of the economic situation. For the statist, large scale violence means you have lost. You can get away with one of your dogs offing a paper seller who got caught up in a protest, and mostly you can shield the officers from anything but paper-tiger maulings from such vested interest twonks as the IPPCC. Show the steel properly, and you've lost.


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## junglevip (Mar 7, 2011)

Well at least they are up for a fight!  I haven't attended a picket line (or any protest) since the miners strike in my lunch break when I was at school.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 7, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Freemen of the Land bollocks


 
TBf this is good stuff, Linebaugh has written a book on Magna Carta after all;
http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520260009

The Levellers and protests in Lincoln Green are something I have a great deal of time for. 

That the right are using them for their purposes doesn't mean the ideas can't be used by & for the working class, infact they should be asap. This legalistic protest has a fine tradition very ably described by EP THompson in the Making of the English working class, Customs in Common and other places.


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## killer b (Mar 7, 2011)

yeah, but they're bellends.


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## Maurice Picarda (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Crude. Far cruder than managed consent, domination of the propaganda war and total dominance of the economic situation. For the statist, large scale violence means you have lost. You can get away with one of your dogs offing a paper seller who got caught up in a protest, and mostly you can shield the officers from anything but paper-tiger maulings from such vested interest twonks as the IPPCC. Show the steel properly, and you've lost.


 
I suppose you're right. The ringleaders should have been poisoned ages ago though.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Well at least they are up for a fight!  I haven't attended a picket line (or any protest) since the miners strike in my lunch break when I was at school.


 
they'd make excellent cannon fodder- useful idiots to keep plod busy. Just hit them all with an undue tax bill and watch them surge forward on a tide of enraged spittle


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> TBf this is good stuff, Linebaugh has written a book on Magna Carta after all;
> http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520260009
> 
> The Levellers and protests in Lincoln Green are something I have a great deal of time for.
> ...


 
The right aren't using them, the position is inherently individualist in the mould of right libertarianism (except the crown gets to be final arbiter LOL)

Certainly not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as any of the english socialist movements.


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## junglevip (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> they'd make excellent cannon fodder- useful idiots to keep plod busy. Just hit them all with an undue tax bill and watch them surge forward on a tide of enraged spittle



While you hastily type away in your ivory tower.  I have to admit though your posts are quite poetic.  Esp. 'Show the steel properly, and you've lost'.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> I suppose you're right. The ringleaders should have been poisoned ages ago though.


 
 you really are a whig of the 1700's. Managed consent in a modern polity means having or turning a decent enough of any non orthodox political movement that they can be subverted, discredited or just sabotaged. It's cheaper in the long run. Keeping a large number of people relatively docile just isn't possible through assassinations and martyr making crackdowns. Just manage the dissidence and continue to restrict it whenever possible- terrorist threats provide excellent cover for this because when the threat has gone away the rules stay in place.


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## agricola (Mar 7, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> That the right are using them for their purposes doesn't mean the ideas can't be used by & for the working class, infact they should be asap. This legalistic protest has a fine tradition very ably described by EP THompson in the Making of the English working class, Customs in Common and other places.


 
Their legal argument is nonsense though - section 61 of Magna Carta has not been in the law for 800 years, and even then referred to the rights of the council of barons and not (except as it related to them following the direction of the barons) the common man.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

junglevip said:


> While you hastily type away in your ivory tower.  I have to admit though your posts are quite poetic.  Esp. 'Show the steel properly, and you've lost'.


 
don't mistake a pithy turn of phrase for an ivory-tower dwelling intellectual. I'm neither clever nor unacquainted with ground level circumstances. I am poesy inclined though


Whats going to happen when these scamps are in the same court (hopefully in front of the same judge they sought to arrest for maximum lols)?


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## Jon-of-arc (Mar 7, 2011)

MrSki said:


> Looks like they have gone home.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12668444


 
Another job well done?  They're like the EDL of the vaguely lefty protest movement "why have you taken away our bacn sandwhiches?  Why have you taken away our rights?"


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## Jon-of-arc (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> basically they are right libbers who have decided quite mentally that the original magna carta and the commonlaw stuff is some pure good independant power to hark back at. Leaving aside that this is obviously mental they actually show quite an amusingly conservative view although they think they are radicals.


 
They do tend to hide amongst wiberals etc a bit, though, if you ask me.


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## killer b (Mar 7, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Well at least they are up for a fight!


 
So're the phelps family, and those nutter islamics who picket dead soldiers. I won't be cheering them on either.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

they aren't even vaugely lefty ffs, they are petite bourgois dissidents of the standard right libber mould given a natinalist/patriot gloss of appeal to 'when law served the common man' 

as if it ever fucking did. And even if it ever did you can't use it to get yourself off of a drink driving charge because you deny the authority of the court. Dictators deny the authority of courts and swing regardless.


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## agricola (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> they aren't even vaugely lefty ffs, they are petite bourgois dissidents of the standard right libber mould given a natinalist/patriot gloss of appeal to 'when law served the common man'
> 
> as if it ever fucking did. And even if it ever did you can't use it to get yourself off of a drink driving charge because you deny the authority of the court. Dictators deny the authority of courts and swing regardless.


 
Indeed.  Roger Hayes (the person whose court case sparked this off) is an ex-UKIP prospective parliamentary candidate, at least according to the internets.


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## Maurice Picarda (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> you really are a whig of the 1700's. .



Bang to rights. Executing monarchs, championing commerce, professions and the enlightenment, annoying religious and rural interests - bliss it would have been in that dawn to be alive.


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Another job well done?  They're like the EDL of the vaguely lefty protest movement "why have you taken away our bacn sandwhiches?  Why have you taken away our rights?"


 
lefty?  in what way?


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## Jon-of-arc (Mar 7, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> lefty?  in what way?


 
pro-civil liberties, pro direct action, anti authoritarian.

They're still a bunch of pumps, but the similarities are there...


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> pro-civil liberties, pro direct action, anti authoritarian.
> 
> They're still a bunch of pumps, but the similarities are there...



pro-civil liberties?  in what way?  Anti-authoratarian?  Eh?  They want the authority of the Queen!


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## junglevip (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> don't mistake a pithy turn of phrase for an ivory-tower dwelling intellectual. I'm neither clever nor unacquainted with ground level circumstances. I am poesy inclined though
> 
> 
> Whats going to happen when these scamps are in the same court (hopefully in front of the same judge they sought to arrest for maximum lols)?


 
Lovin it


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## junglevip (Mar 7, 2011)

killer b said:


> So're the phelps family, and those nutter islamics who picket dead soldiers. I won't be cheering them on either.


 
Good point!


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## Jon-of-arc (Mar 7, 2011)

there's too many schools of thought from them to give specific answers, I did find this fairly interesting article mind...

http://libertarianalliance.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/john-kersey-on-freemen-of-the-land/

indicates that just a smattering of them want the authority of the queen.

as for civil libs I'll quote from the piece  



> Specifically, they have had enough of what they perceive as the abuse of authority; common complaints concern council tax contributions, the faceless and legally aggressive behaviour of large corporations, the perceived use of civil penalties such as parking fines to raise revenue for councils and private operators, and other issues ranging from civil debt recovery to television licensing.



I'm not saying its not confused and fuckheaded, but whats so different between, say, not wanting to pay a tv liscence  and not wanting to pay for accomodation (squatting)?  The obvious answer to this is that squats are empty, but often they not empty and criminal acts need to be committed to gain entry.

Anyway, I sound like a fotl-loon now and I'm not.  Just saying there are a few paralels.


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## pk (Mar 7, 2011)

I lol'd.


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## Blagsta (Mar 7, 2011)

an article from the Libertarian Alliance, lol


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> there's too many schools of thought from them to give specific answers, I did find this fairly interesting article mind...
> 
> http://libertarianalliance.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/john-kersey-on-freemen-of-the-land/
> 
> ...


 

Right libbers do have many schools of thought 'almost like a real social theory'

It isn't like squatting at all really because the theory of behind one (property is theft, land held common, etc) is a million miles from FotL stuff. They love property rights, but think that evil government and corps have nicked it all and if we could just go back to when people were free it'd all be fine.

Ignores the fact that 'free' was defined first as 'how many can you gather to defend it' and then later 'how far are you from the kings warband'


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## Jon-of-arc (Mar 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> It isn't like squatting at all really because the theory of behind one (property is theft, land held common, etc) is a million miles from FotL stuff. They love property rights, *but think that evil government and corps have nicked it all and if we could just go back to when people were free it'd all be fine.*


 
sounds a bit like anarcho primitivism


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

'anarcho-capitalists' are bedfellows of the FotL sorts. These lot aren't hearking back to the rule of hunter-gatherer primitive communism as expressed by engels etc. They seek a rule of law that was supposedly fairer because it was observed in the olden days. They aren't rebelling against rue of law, rather the current iteration of rule of law. The tradition they seek to revive was a primitive synthesis between romano latin law, anglo saxonish jury traditions and trial by ordeal.

They are actually insane because they have understood rule of law but completely misunderstood that rule of law is the articulation of power on people. Hence if I hold the bigger stick, I haven't commited murder. Crudely.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 7, 2011)

Vaguely lefty? Wtf.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

And when you are old in your beds you can say that they never overcharged you on council tax, never impounded your motor because you failed to pay a frankly iniquitous sum to those apparatchiks of state

*rides up and down the line eyeballing everyone*

They may take our tax contributions but they will never take oor freeeedoooom!

Now ride, ride to  red ruin and the worlds end- the socialists are coming


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Bang to rights. Executing monarchs, championing commerce, professions and the enlightenment, annoying religious and rural interests - bliss it would have been in that dawn to be alive.


 
You understand of course that whiggish fabian sorts will be under house arrest till they die or get offed by an internal security apparatus I set up and then forgot about ctr


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## ExtraRefined (Mar 7, 2011)

SMASH THE STATE!

Except council tax, which is great.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 7, 2011)

everytime you post I think about soviet tank engineering


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 7, 2011)

We have definitely done them before but basically

(a) they are intrinsically ultra-conservative fundamentalist legal fetishists, without even the justification that the US Constitution nuts have i.e. that their fundamentalist arguments could actually have some legal force and they have a proper fundamental text to _work_ from;
(b) their goals are basically always to avoid having to pay some personal tax or fine and they display no concern for anyone else or any other social issue;
(z) they are mentals.

It is funny to imagine the expression on the faces of coppers as they are confronted with people chanting bollocks about the Magna Carta, I'll give you that. Also funny to imagine the moment when said coppers shrug and extend their batons.


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## treelover (Mar 8, 2011)

300+ people on a Monday afternoon is a substantial figure, no real media coverage though...


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 8, 2011)

They are motivated and well organised with a have a go attitude. We got a call from them a few days ago about this action as we are organising a non payment campaign but decided to swerve them as they are rightwing Brits and we were collectively washing our hair.


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

I often wonder what the anti-tax libertarian groups are _really_ about. And who is behind them. They always remind me of astro-turf US groups, the kind backed by the Koch brothers. Campaigning for things that will only really benefit their masters.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

don't credit the ground crew with much other than a handful of minarchist nonsense peddlers. Don't dignify it.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> They are motivated and well organised with a have a go attitude. We got a call from them a few days ago about this action as we are organising a non payment campaign but decided to swerve them as they are rightwing Brits and we were collectively washing our hair.


 
You've been given the heave-ho by some nationalist scotsman and his galic brethren. Thats right, even fucking weirdos want nothing to do with yu.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 8, 2011)

mancboy said:


> Tunisia, Egypt, Libya... The Wirral
> 
> I can see a progression here. The cries of 'freedom' are getting ever closer


 
This actually made me laugh out loud.


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> You've been given the heave-ho by some nationalist scotsman and his galic brethren. Thats right, even fucking weirdos want nothing to do with yu.


 No other way around.


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## ExtraRefined (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> I often wonder what the anti-tax libertarian groups are _really_ about. And who is behind them. They always remind me of astro-turf US groups, the kind backed by the Koch brothers. Campaigning for things that will only really benefit their masters.


 
It's always a bloody conspiracy isn't it? Can't you just accept that lots of people don't like the government spending half their money? And that some of them are also sufficiently unhinged to think that this shit will work.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

oh noes the bubbermint are taeking mie munneee.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> It's always a bloody conspiracy isn't it? Can't you just accept that lots of people don't like the government spending half their money? And that some of them are also sufficiently unhinged to think that this shit will work.


 
Some people are parasites and don't want to pay for services they use. This is news?


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## ExtraRefined (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Some people are parasites and don't want to pay for services they use. This is news?


 
What, people like the unemployed?


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

great riposte voltaire


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Indeed.  Roger Hayes (the person whose court case sparked this off) is an ex-UKIP prospective parliamentary candidate, at least according to the internets.


 
These people are generally those who have had some minor fuck over by the forces of law and order. Confronted for the first time in their white, middle aged male existence with the reality of a vested-interest judiciary they go off the rails.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/the-british-constitution-group-in-birkenhead/

Full of BNP, including one knob who is a community councillor in Coedpoeth North, near Wrexham, and who once got me arrested, the massive boss-eyed turd.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> What, people like the unemployed?


 
Jesus, you're a dickhead.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Jesus, you're a dickhead.


 
I forgive you for this slight, my son.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Case rests m'lud.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

Hello Everyone, I am called Dave, I am a Freeman on the land and I helped to organise what happened yesterday and indeed I was in the courtroom.

In a search for news stories this forum came up and looking at this thread I see a lot of opinions based on very little knowledge or evidence, I am happy to answer any questions you may have.

I respect you and your opinions, I ask for the same consideration.

Dave.


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

lol


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Are you BNP?


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Hello Starbuck, and welcome. I'm afraid you're not going to find many in agreement with your cause. Everyone thinks that the FotL movment is some kind of right wing nazi thing. Although I've still not worked out how wanting the goverment to step back from controling our lives is right wing. Maybe you can explain how it isn't, better than this drunken old (young  ) fool/ "deluded bullshitter"  can.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

do you think it is a bit stupid to object to a modern iteration of law by falling back on an older one that if anything was more cutthroat and repressive for the little man?


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Hello Starbuck, and welcome. I'm afraid you're not going to find many in agreement with your cause. Everyone thinks that the FotL movment is some kind of right wing nazi thing. Although I've still not worked out how wanting the goverment to step back from controling our lives is right wing. Maybe you can explain how it isn't, better than this drunken old (young  ) fool/ "deluded bullshitter"  can.


 
xes, ffs, right wing doesn't imply pro-statism. That is the point here. Your minarchists and FotL and randists etc are anti state right wingers. And as such should all be force expatriated to mogadishu to embrace fully the freedom that comes from no-state.


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## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Hello Everyone, I am called Dave, I am a Freeman on the land and I helped to organise what happened yesterday and indeed I was in the courtroom.
> 
> In a search for news stories this forum came up and looking at this thread I see a lot of opinions based on very little knowledge or evidence, I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
> 
> ...


 
What do you think of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Dave?


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> do you think it is a bit stupid to object to a modern iteration of law by falling back on an older one that if anything was more cutthroat and repressive for the little man?


 
can't be any worse than what we have now. A near dictatorship goverment, fleecing you at every turn, oh, I'm sorry, taxing you at every turn..bringing in thousands of "laws" to keep us safe from tewwowists. And basically intruding in every single aspect of our lives, for our own good, of course. Becasue they love us, so very, very much. Fuck them, and fuck those who support them.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

assize, debtors gaol, and the gibbet. They never had it so good.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

This is what happens when you have no politics.


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> can't be any worse than what we have now. A near dictatorship goverment, fleecing you at every turn, oh, I'm sorry, taxing you at every turn..bringing in thousands of "laws" to keep us safe from tewwowists. And basically intruding in every single aspect of our lives, for our own good, of course. Becasue they love us, so very, very much. Fuck them, and fuck those who support them.


 
Libertarians support your masters. You should be against them.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

this is what happens when you have no politics


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> this is what happens when you have no politics


 





Nothing to lose but your chains.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

I have no chains, I gave them away to those who need them more than I do. (those who NEED a goverment, because they need to be told what to do)


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I have no chains, I gave them away to those who need them more than I do. (those who NEED a goverment, because they need to be told what to do)


 
You fucking idiot


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I have no chains, I gave them away to those who need them more than I do. (those who NEED a goverment, because they need to be told what to do)



You don't give your chains away.

You throw them off by organizing alongside the oppressed of the world.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

You currently need a government too, unless you plan on levitating above the pavements.


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## Crispy (Mar 8, 2011)

I need a government to maintain the rule of law, heal me when I'm ill, educate my children, build and maintain my transport system, provide heat, light, water and power, take away my garbage and all the other things that are collectively good for society.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

freedom to slavery. Free to take what is theirs and call it good. The freedom you seek is a liberal; fetish because you'd cut any bonds save the economic ones. And they always produce another version of serf-master


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## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm glad that none of my taxes are going to pay for xes' NHS treatment.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I am a Freeman on the land


 
No, you're not.

HTH, HAND.


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## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Hello Everyone, I am called Dave, I am a Freeman on the land and I helped to organise what happened yesterday and indeed I was in the courtroom.
> 
> In a search for news stories this forum came up and looking at this thread I see a lot of opinions based on very little knowledge or evidence, I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
> 
> ...


 
Who do you think destroyed the World Trade Centre, Dave?


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## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Liverpool AF said:
			
		

> My comrade told me that “most of the Liverpool BNP contingent” were there, along with “plenty of suits, plenty of hippy types with tie dye and dreadlocks, some urban commandos with camouflaged faces, and some eccentric David Icke types, one holding a banner saying ‘judges are lizards!’” In terms of fascists, I can recognise Liverpool BNP’s current branch fundholder Karen Otty from the videos on the Wirral Globe website.



Fucking hippies.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

the enclosures were simply the will of free men deciding that they had the right to make more coin from livestock than crops. It was an economic massacre but the people who did it were free from such burdens as thinking about what happens to the majority.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> can't be any worse than what we have now.


 
Fuck me, things may be far from ideal and I don't support the current goverment, but you're off your box is think things couldn't be a whole lot worse.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I need a government to maintain the rule of law, heal me when I'm ill, educate my children, build and maintain my transport system, provide heat, light, water and power, take away my garbage and all the other things that are collectively good for society.


 
why do you need a goverment for any of that? WE can look after ourselves. To need a goverment, is to be child like. To need to be governed. I don't need to be told to get up and go to work, as it is for the betterment of US. I do not need to be told to not steal or hurt people, becasue it's common sense. WE do not need a goverment to heal each other, we have people who want to help and heal. They can still do that without a goverment in charge. We can still do all the things we do now, all the things we have now, with no goverment, or at the very least, a skeletal goverment who don't stuck their oar in where it most certainly isn't needed. Do you not know how to clean up after yourself? Do you need telling that littering is bad? Yes, we did need a goverment, to sort shit out, and to bring some structure to us. But that time has passed, we have everything in place now, to keep going without them. And that is all I want. I'm not a FotL, but I do agree with alot of what they say. I guess that makes me a nazi  

I dunno, some people get their morals from a book, some people need to be told them by "those in charge" others just have a sense of common decency.


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## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> why do you need a goverment for any of that? WE can look after ourselves. To need a goverment, is to be child like. To need to be governed. I don't need to be told to get up and go to work, as it is for the betterment of US. I do not need to be told to not steal or hurt people, becasue it's common sense. WE do not need a goverment to heal each other, we have people who want to help and heal. They can still do that without a goverment in charge. We can still do all the things we do now, all the things we have now, with no goverment, or at the very least, a skeletal goverment who don't stuck their oar in where it most certainly isn't needed. Do you not know how to clean up after yourself? Do you need telling that littering is bad? Yes, we did need a goverment, to sort shit out, and to bring some structure to us. But that time has passed, we have everything in place now, to keep going without them. And that is all I want. I'm not a FotL, but I do agree with alot of what they say. I guess that makes me a nazi
> 
> I dunno, some people get their morals from a book, some people need to be told them by "those in charge" others just have a sense of common decency.


 
How long before you start wishing people dead again, xes?


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> How long before you start wishing people dead again, xes?


 
there's only 1 on here that i'd laugh my arse off if he snuffed it. But as I don't really believe in death, it doesn't really matter. And what has that got to do with wanting to be free from goverment control?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> why do you need a goverment for any of that? WE can look after ourselves. To need a goverment, is to be child like. To need to be governed. I don't need to be told to get up and go to work, as it is for the betterment of US. I do not need to be told to not steal or hurt people, becasue it's common sense. WE do not need a goverment to heal each other, we have people who want to help and heal. They can still do that without a goverment in charge. We can still do all the things we do now, all the things we have now, with no goverment, or at the very least, a skeletal goverment who don't stuck their oar in where it most certainly isn't needed. Do you not know how to clean up after yourself? Do you need telling that littering is bad? Yes, we did need a goverment, to sort shit out, and to bring some structure to us. But that time has passed, we have everything in place now, to keep going without them. And that is all I want. I'm not a FotL, but I do agree with alot of what they say. I guess that makes me a nazi
> 
> I dunno, some people get their morals from a book, some people need to be told them by "those in charge" others just have a sense of common decency.


 
The point of government in my eyes is to provide things that the market wouldn't, like an NHS. There are plenty of people who might want to have a crack at healing folk, but I'd rather stick with doctors thanks.


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## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@ProperTidy  I am not, and I don't know anyone who is in this movement... and a a black guy myself, I think I would be able to spot them eh? 

@xes:  I'm not here to get agreement with our cause, I'm here because as you say everyone thinks that FMOTL is a right wing Nazi organisation... I am here to peacefully answer your questions and inform you... your agreement is optional 

@DotCommunist:  The common law is not some obscure ancient law that has no bearing on today's world, it is Law... The legal system is actually a layer that sits above common law (but does not supercede it) and was originally put in place for our benefit but it relies on your consent (I can explain this part in detail if anyone would like me to) a statute is defined as "_a legislated rule of society given the force of Law by the consent of the governed_" that is why if a Policeman stops you and says "I'm charging you with such and such, do you understand" he is not asking if you comprehend the words that he is saying, he is asking you if you Stand Under what he is saying... if you consult a legal dictionary you will find the word "understand" redefined to mean "stand under, agree to be bound by, accept the jurisdiction of" so but saying "Yes I understand" you are legally saying "Yes, I agree to be bound by these charges" and so it becomes law under the legal maxim "Consensus Facet Legem" Consent makes the Law...
And while this is totally harmless in the original beneficial system, these days the legal system has been taken over by the bankers to extract money from us and keep us under their control.  This is not some conspriracy theory, this is fact.  Statues are created as "Statutory Instruments" which means the government are given a monetary value and sold to the bankers as collateral for loans.  As an example the Road Traffic Act might have been given a value of say 10 Billion pounds a year, the government use this as security for a loan from the Bank of England and the shareholders get the revenue from the fines generated from that statute... after the Courts and the Police get their cut.

All of this can be proved with a little research and study.

Sorry to go on, I shall try to be a little more brief in future 

Dave.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

and the appeal to common sense comes forth. Once upon a time people sacrificed children to the gods, in a respectful and pious manner. This was common sense, how else do we honour ancestors and the sun god?


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## killer b (Mar 8, 2011)

this is fast becoming my favourite thread of the new year btw. 

xes: you're a fucking mental too.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> The point of government in my eyes is to provide things that the market wouldn't, like an NHS. There are plenty of people who might want to have a crack at healing folk, but I'd rather stick with doctors thanks.


 
We could still have doctors, science, and all those new fandangle things that we rely on. We have everything in place to just drop them, like a hot turd. It's high time we did just that, and stood on our own 2 feet.


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## ExtraRefined (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I need a government to maintain the rule of law



EFA


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## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> What do you think of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Dave?


 


Santino said:


> Who do you think destroyed the World Trade Centre, Dave?



.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @ProperTidy  I am not, and I don't know anyone who is in this movement... and a a black guy myself, I think I would be able to spot them eh?


 
It was full of Liverpool BNP you dozy get. Otty and Whitby, amongst others, were there. Both are in fucking pictures taken at the court.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> xes: you're a fucking mental too.


 
This is your (and a few others) opinion, that's is fine.  If you wantto know, I think you lot are all a bit mental too. You need a goverment, how fucking mad is that?


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## Combustible (Mar 8, 2011)

If these loons actually cared about government oppression why does is it always seem to be council tax they refuse to pay?


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## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@Santino

I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh, and for the record. I wouldn't mind paying taxes, if I could opt out of giving money to the army.


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## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
Nice.


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## killer b (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
Well.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @ProperTidy  I am not, and I don't know anyone who is in this movement... and a a black guy myself, I think I would be able to spot them eh?
> 
> @xes:  I'm not here to get agreement with our cause, I'm here because as you say everyone thinks that FMOTL is a right wing Nazi organisation... I am here to peacefully answer your questions and inform you... your agreement is optional
> 
> ...


 

consent makes the law, by god you people haven't a clue. A bigger rifle makes the law. Law serves vested interests. 



> As an example the Road Traffic Act might have been given a value of say 10 Billion pounds a year, the government use this as security for a loan from the Bank of England and the shareholders get the revenue from the fines generated from that statute... after the Courts and the Police get their cut.




As an example you hit upon an act that especially annoys Jeremy Clarkeson and reckless drivers. Being a simple peon who resorts to public transport I can only find your choice of battleground a bit...hmm...whats the word....self centered.


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## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
No.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Mike Whitby, BNP organiser for Liverpool and community councillor in the Coedpoeth North ward near Wrexham, at yesterday's 'Freeman' protest.

I believe he is still banned (bail conditions) from Liverpool city centre after being arrested for calling policemen 'communist peadophiles'.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> We could still have doctors, science, and all those new fandangle things that we rely on. We have everything in place to just drop them, like a hot turd. It's high time we did just that, and stood on our own 2 feet.


 
How do we organise the massive resources to put them together without government? Give me a plan to get rid of the current cunts without going back to the stone age and you can sign me up.


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## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@Santino:  I believe 9/11 was ordered by the neocons within the US government and probably implemented by their mossad assets, from what I've been able to piece together...

I was at 9/11, in fact I turned down a job for Lehman Brothers on the 40th floor tower one just a month before... there were many very fishy things that happened on the day that didn't really dawn on me until weeks after... I was also a volunteer firefighter for the town I lived in and while I missed the first truck into the city (they helped FDNY with rescue operations) I was at a staging point in Secaucus and heard some very strange stories from the injured fire fighters)


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino:  I believe 9/11 was ordered by the neocons within the US government and probably implemented by their mossad assets, from what I've been able to piece together...
> 
> I was at 9/11, in fact I turned down a job for Lehman Brothers on the 40th floor tower one just a month before... there were many very fishy things that happened on the day that didn't really dawn on me until weeks after... I was also a volunteer firefighter for the town I lived in and while I missed the first truck into the city (they helped FDNY with rescue operations) I was at a staging point in Secaucus and heard some very strange stories from the injured fire fighters)


 
Well well well.


----------



## killer b (Mar 8, 2011)




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## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@frogwoman: Really??  Have you read it?


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
Fucks sake.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 

useful idiots. Wooly, 'I've just noticed that the world seems to be run by rich people' fucking idiots. Cow-eyed scum who'd champion your 'freedom' all the way to the camps and then bleat when you realised that you've freed a monster. Capitalism must be fettered or you will be.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> How do we organise the massive resources to put them together without government? Give me a plan to get rid of the current cunts without going back to the stone age and you can sign me up.


 
I don't profess to have all of the answers, just some ideas of how i'd rather live. It wouldn't be  a case of just getting shot of what we have now, it'd be a long process. but it's a process we're going to have to go through if we ever want to progress.


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## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@DotCommunist: It was merely an example, one I thought might be easy to grasp


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## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @frogwoman: Really??  Have you read it?


 
I have, actually. I don't mean to brag btw but don't get onto these topics with me unless you want to be very seriously embarrassed.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I don't profess to have all of the answers, just some ideas of how i'd rather live. It wouldn't be  a case of just getting shot of what we have now, it'd be a long process. but it's a process we're going to have to go through if we ever want to progress.


 
Oh. I thought you'd merely 'thrown off your chains' and were now happily free of the interference of, you know, the state, rule of law, society, taxes, capitalism...


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I don't profess to have all of the answers, just some ideas of how i'd rather live. It wouldn't be  a case of just getting shot of what we have now, it'd be a long process. but it's a process we're going to have to go through if we ever want to progress.



What you don't have is politics. If you had that you might be able to see the problem better and be able to come up with some answers. That's how we progress.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

The term "common law" actually refers to what is known as "case law", i.e. actual rulings in courts. It's what most employment law is based on, for example.

HTH.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Oh. I thought you'd merely 'thrown off your chains' and were now happily free of the interference of, you know, the state, rule of law, society, taxes, capitalism...


 
I live how I like, as best I can. Fuck the state, and fuck the law. They're not here to help.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> useful idiots. Wooly, 'I've just noticed that the world seems to be run by rich people' fucking idiots. Cow-eyed scum who'd champion your 'freedom' all the way to the camps and then bleat when you realised that you've freed a monster. Capitalism must be fettered or you will be.


 
To save the village, we had to destroy it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I live how I like, as best I can. Fuck the state, and fuck the law. They're not here to help.


 
Meanwhile, you are still constrained by the state and the law, because you have no politics to organize against them.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> What you don't have is politics. If you had that you might be able to see the problem better and be able to come up with some answers. That's how we progress.


 
And just how is our politics progressing at the moment? Or is it just a stagnant pond of scum, thinking of new ways to rip us off, and keep us under control?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> We could still have doctors, science, and all those new fandangle things that we rely on. We have everything in place to just drop them, like a hot turd. It's high time we did just that, and stood on our own 2 feet.


 
How you gonna pay for them?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
Right, so you are a bunch of racists.

Glad we got that sorted.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @DotCommunist: It was merely an example, one I thought might be easy to grasp


 
I know. It is very indicative of your thinking though. _Who will save the poor downtrodden motorist_. You've annoyed me now, so go and read some fucking history, politics and then think about evaluation of sources, historical accuracy and the nature of legitimate dissidence.

You people always focus on what the EVIL state is doing to you personally. Never a moments reflection on what standard of living we have and who we have fucked for centuries to achieve your venal whining tax-moans.


----------



## killer b (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> How you gonna pay for them?


 
maybe we could elect representatives to collect in money from the community, which would be distributed amongst those who provided essential services?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Combustible said:


> If these loons actually cared about government oppression why does is it always seem to be council tax they refuse to pay?


 
Cos they're racist parasites.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@Frogwoman: I have read it too, I merely offer my opinion in response to a question asked of me, I'm not challenging you or threatening to seriously embarrass you, you're opinion is different to mine and I respect that


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> How you gonna pay for them?


 
Why do you need a goverment for money? I'd rather live in a world without money, to be honest. We work for ourselves and everything is free. We produce enough to live on, and people have what they need, instead of what they want. Yes, in our world we've been dragged up in, there is much greed, and our current understanding of how to live would have to change radically. But it's not impossible.


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Right, so you are a bunch of racists.
> 
> Glad we got that sorted.


 
well donefor lumping 1 persons opinions with a whole bunch of people. *high fives*


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> And just how is our politics progressing at the moment? Or is it just a stagnant pond of scum, thinking of new ways to rip us off, and keep us under control?



That is the government, that is capital, that is the enemy. By not having any politics and convincing yourself that it doesn't matter means you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution. That is exactly how _they_ want you. To think that you are alright and fuck everything else. That is control.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Right, so you are a bunch of racists.
> 
> Glad we got that sorted.



Hmmmm, not quite sure where I say that or where I say I speak for everyone


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> maybe we could elect representatives to collect in money from the community, which would be distributed amongst those who provided essential services?


 
That's a genius idea! Why has no one thought of it before?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Hmmmm, not quite sure where I say that or where I say I speak for everyone


 
You declared yourself a racist in the post I quoted.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Frogwoman: I have read it too, I merely offer my opinion in response to a question asked of me, I'm not challenging you or threatening to seriously embarrass you, you're opinion is different to mine and I respect that


 
It's nothing to do with whether your opinion is different to yours actually. But since you are carrying on down this route I'd like to ask you what makes you think the protocols of zion are real. What plan is being carried out and why do you think it's happening?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Frogwoman: I have read it too, I merely offer my opinion in response to a question asked of me, I'm not challenging you or threatening to seriously embarrass you, you're opinion is different to mine and I respect that


 
Why do you hang around with BNP?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> well donefor lumping 1 persons opinions with a whole bunch of people. *high fives*


 
It's quite a common belief in this FotL stuff. Yes, I have looked into it.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm glad you're not threatening to seriously embarrass me because without wishing to sound arrogant, you won't succeed.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Why do you need a goverment for money? I'd rather live in a world without money, to be honest. We work for ourselves and everything is free. We produce enough to live oon, and people have whato they need, instead of what they want. Yes, in our world we've been dragged up in, there is much greed, and our current understanding of how to live would have to change radically. But it's not impossible.


 
So what are you doing to organise for communism?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

What plan is being carried out Starbuck? Why do you think it is happening?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> What plan is being carried out Starbuck? Why do you think it is happening?


 
j00s


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> That is the government, that is capital, that is the enemy. By not having any politics and convincing yourself that it doesn't matter means you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution. That is exactly how _they_ want you. To think that you are alright and fuck everything else. That is control.


 
qft. The genius of the con job is that by abrogating yourself of any interest in the machinery of a polity you are actually freeing yourself!. Come and sit fido, go fetch fido. Wear the fucking collar fido.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

Combustible said:


> If these loons actually cared about government oppression why does is it always seem to be council tax they refuse to pay?



I'm not sure this question was directed at me but I will accept the mantle of 'loon' upon proof of claim that I am mentally deficient in some fashion 

Why do you pay Council Tax?

Some might say its because it pays for local services... but what if you were told by the council, in writing, that Council Tax is not collected for services? I have that in black and white.

The real reason that most people pay council tax, despite there being no law requiring you to pay it, is because of the consequences they might face if they didn't... purely threats and coersion.

How many people would continue to pay Council Tax if the knew they weren't required by law to do so and they were not afraid of the possible consequences?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> qft. The genius of the con job is that by abrogating yourself of any interest in the machinery of a polity you are actually freeing yourself!. Come and sit fido, go fetch fido. Wear the fucking collar fido.


 
you'll not get a dog to do those things unless there's the occasional 'good boy fido' or 'well done fido'. you should watch barbara woodhouse again


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> j00s


 
What is it in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that so matches the current day?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I'm not sure this question was directed at me but I will accept the mantle of 'loon' upon proof of claim that I am mentally deficient in some fashion
> 
> Why do you pay Council Tax?
> 
> ...


 



Parasite.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> j00s


 
Doesn't take long, does it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I'm not sure this question was directed at me but I will accept the mantle of 'loon' upon proof of claim that I am mentally deficient in some fashion



Okay



Starbuck said:


> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?



Loon


----------



## killer b (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Parasite.


 
innit. you are vermin mr starbuck.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> What is it in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that so matches the current day?


 
You know, like Mossad and that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> this would be all over the news if true


 
not necessarily. the media aren't some free and fair group of people - there's much they don't cover. they're also not everywhere all at once.


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Do I win a prize?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> You know, like Mossad and that.


 
could you point me to a reference to mossad in the protocols? i'd have thought that being written by the russians well before foundation of the state of israel there'd be nothing about mossad there...


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

@Frogwoman:  Rather off topic don't you think?  My personal view of the world is not shared by anyone else but me, and has no bearing on the freeman movement


----------



## killer b (Mar 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> not necessarily. the media aren't some free and fair group of people - there's much they don't cover. they're also not everywhere all at once.


 
in this case, it wasn't true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I'm not sure this question was directed at me but I will accept the mantle of 'loon' upon proof of claim that I am mentally deficient in some fashion
> 
> Why do you pay Council Tax?
> 
> ...


 
i take it you're unfamiliar with the local government finance act 1992.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Frogwoman:  Rather off topic don't you think?  My personal view of the world is not shared by anyone else but me, and has no bearing on the freeman movement


 
You're a racist parasite, by your own admission.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

aand we are back to council tax. why is your freedom only freedom of you from the burden of taxation? This is individualism raised to the point where you genuinley think you are being rebels because you don't like paying taxes. The morality of a worm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> in this case, it wasn't true.


 
yes and the media frequently makes things up too - thank you for reminding me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> aand we are back to council tax. why is your freedom only freedom of you from the burden of taxation? This is individualism raised to the point where you genuinley think you are being rebels because you don't like paying taxes. The morality of a worm.


 
i thought worms were exempt from taxation.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Frogwoman:  Rather off topic don't you think?  My personal view of the world is not shared by anyone else but me, and has no bearing on the freeman movement


 
It isn't off topic. And it's shared by more people than you think. You're the one who made the statement. What makes you think that what is described in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is happening today? You're the one who said it, you ought to at least be able to say why.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @DotCommunist:  The common law is not some obscure ancient law that has no bearing on today's world, it is Law... The legal system is actually a layer that sits above common law (but does not supercede it) and was originally put in place for our benefit but it relies on your consent



The law is made by those in power to protect their power. It is only challenged and changed by fighting for it with an equal or greater amount of power. In the past, this has involved such oppositions as the barons vs the crown, and corporations vs. the welfare state.



> (I can explain this part in detail if anyone would like me to) a statute is defined as "_a legislated rule of society given the force of Law by the consent of the governed_" that is why if a Policeman stops you and says "I'm charging you with such and such, do you understand" he is not asking if you comprehend the words that he is saying, he is asking you if you Stand Under what he is saying... if you consult a legal dictionary you will find the word "understand" redefined to mean "stand under, agree to be bound by, accept the jurisdiction of" so but saying "Yes I understand" you are legally saying "Yes, I agree to be bound by these charges" and so it becomes law under the legal maxim "Consensus Facet Legem" Consent makes the Law...


 
Big stick beats reason every time. The Law is not an abstract entity that, if properly formed, will ensure true freedom, equality and justice, it is the framework with which the powerful maintain their power. It can and does operate completely at odds with its own supposed rules and founding documents with the full knowledge and consent of those who run it.

If you want to change the law, you need power. Power comes from the end of a gun or from the masses. Not weaseling around in ancient texts.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i take it you're unfamiliar with the local government finance act 1992.


 
He's clearly unfamiliar with any law.


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Do you think the Holocaust happened as described in most mainstream history books, Dave?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> could you point me to a reference to mossad in the protocols? i'd have thought that being written by the russians well before foundation of the state of israel there'd be nothing about mossad there...


 
the protocols as written by the cheka were nicked from existing sources as well. Machiavelli being one of the ripped off.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Its not off topic. If you are asking for support you ought to at least be able to say why.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i take it you're unfamiliar with the local government finance act 1992.



Hmmmm, I believe that's a statute... I refer you to the definition of a statute:

 "a legislated rule of society given the force of Law by the consent of the governed"


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought worms were exempt from taxation.


 
Under the Baits and Rods Liscence of 1816 they are exempted but shiny maggots are not


----------



## Crispy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Hmmmm, I believe that's a statute... I refer you to the definition of a statute:
> 
> "a legislated rule of society given the force of Law by the consent of the governed"


 
Doesn't matter what the definition is. If the powerful say it is something else, then it is.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Its not off topic. If you are asking for support you ought to at least be able to say why.


 
Once again, I'm not asking for support


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

What are you doing to fight the cuts starbuck?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Hmmmm, I believe that's a statute... I refer you to the definition of a statute:
> 
> "a legislated rule of society given the force of Law by the consent of the governed"


 
source pls.

e2a: 'a legislated rule of society' sounds like a law to me. the ways 'laws' are made in this country has been the same for fucking centuries, that the people - represented by mps in the commons - and the lords spiritual and temporal debate, amend and pass legislation which is signed into law by the crown. which part of the usual process of passing a law in this country do you say they forgot?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Once again, I'm not asking for support


 
Why are you afraid of saying what you think is accurate about the protocols?


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> If you want to change the law, you need power. Power comes from the end of a gun or from the masses. Not weaseling around in ancient texts.



I agree, and its the masses that need to be awakened


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Awakened to what? That the plan outlined in the protocols is true?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I agree, and its the masses that need to be awakened


 
And they won't get want they want without direct political action. You can't use the law as a weapon, your enemy holds the trigger and makes the ammo.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)




----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Why are you afraid of saying what you think is accurate about the protocols?


 
Because it is off topic and I refuse to get involved in a battle of opinions


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

awake sleepy masses, to your blood, your honour and your right to freedom (as defined by me and my mates)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Because it is off topic and I refuse to get involved in a battle of opinions


 
if it's accurate then it's accurate and therefore a statement of fact, not an opinion.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Because it is off topic and I refuse to get involved in a battle of opinions


 
Hang on - you're telling everyone here that "the masses need to wake up". It would help a bit if you told us what we need to wake up *to*


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Hang on - you're telling everyone here that "the masses need to wake up". It would help a bit if you told us what we need to wake up *to*


 
a nice fried breakfast  that's what i like to wake up to.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Innit


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> Do you think the Holocaust happened as described in most mainstream history books, Dave?



.


----------



## Starbuck (Mar 8, 2011)

Well, when I came on to your forum I stated my intentions and promised to treat everyone with respect and that I expected nothing less in return...  

It seems that I have caused far too much controversy, enough to drive some of you to derision and name calling, and for that I apologise and hope you can forgive me.

I will leave you to your own view of the world I was merely hoping that you might reconsider your view of us particularly as we are not just doing what we do for our own benefit but for yours and everyone else's 

you only have the rights you know how to claim, and it seems that we are justified in fighting harder to preserve those rights that most seem to have forgotten already.

Once again my apologies for my intrusion.

Dave.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Huh? Where did i insult or attack you?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Hmmmm, I believe that's a statute... I refer you to the definition of a statute:
> 
> "a legislated rule of society given the force of Law by the consent of the governed"


 
Can you supply references for these "legal definitions" you're using?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> pro-civil liberties?  in what way?



In a David Davis kind of way.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

You make a statement like the one you did, you should expect to be able to back it up. Why are you embarrassed about doing so?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Well, when I came on to your forum I stated my intentions and promised to treat everyone with respect and that I expected nothing less in return...
> 
> It seems that I have caused far too much controversy, enough to drive some of you to derision and name calling, and for that I apologise and hope you can forgive me.
> 
> ...


 
Don't apologize, just explain how you think the NHS, schools, the military and the like should be paid for.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Because it is off topic and I refuse to get involved in a battle of opinions


 
Is it an "opinion" that the Protocols was an anti-semitic forgery?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Well, when I came on to your forum I stated my intentions and promised to treat everyone with respect and that I expected nothing less in return...
> 
> It seems that I have caused far too much controversy, enough to drive some of you to derision and name calling, and for that I apologise and hope you can forgive me.
> 
> ...


 
Say hello to Liverpool BNP on your next demo


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Well, when I came on to your forum I stated my intentions and promised to treat everyone with respect and that I expected nothing less in return...
> 
> It seems that I have caused far too much controversy, enough to drive some of you to derision and name calling, and for that I apologise and hope you can forgive me.
> 
> ...



You've admitted to being a racist who doesn't want to pay for public services and who doesn't know anything about law.  What was it we were supposed to reconsider?


----------



## rekil (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino:  I believe 9/11 was ordered by the neocons within the US government and probably implemented by their mossad assets, from what I've been able to piece together...
> 
> I was at 9/11, in fact I turned down a job for Lehman Brothers on the 40th floor tower one just a month before... there were many very fishy things that happened on the day that didn't really dawn on me until weeks after... I was also a volunteer firefighter for the town I lived in and while I missed the first truck into the city (they helped FDNY with rescue operations) I was at a staging point in Secaucus and heard some very strange stories from the injured fire fighters)


 This is a pack of lies isn't it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Why don't you stay and answer some of the questions we have put to you instead of running away?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Well, when I came on to your forum I stated my intentions and promised to treat everyone with respect and that I expected nothing less in return...
> 
> It seems that I have caused far too much controversy, enough to drive some of you to derision and name calling, and for that I apologise and hope you can forgive me.
> 
> ...


 

oh just fuck off. Freedoms forgotten? we never had them you fool. Off you trot then.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> Well, when I came on to your forum I stated my intentions and promised to treat everyone with respect and that I expected nothing less in return...
> 
> It seems that I have caused far too much controversy, enough to drive some of you to derision and name calling, and for that I apologise and hope you can forgive me.
> 
> ...


 
Does "everyone else's" include the group of people mentioned in the Protocols as carrying out a global conspiracy?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> Why don't you stay and answer some of the questions we have put to you instead of running away?


 
'cos he's not capable of backing up his opinions


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

or becasue there's no point trying on here, deep in the realms of the hard core mainstream "thinkers". Any thought outside of the mainstream belief system, is firstly ridiculed, and then vehimently opposed via name calling, and accusations.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> or becasue there's no point trying on here, deep in the realms of the hard core mainstream "thinkers". Any thought outside of the mainstream belief system, is firstly ridiculed, and then vehimently opposed via name calling, and accusations.


 
I didn't. Frogwoman didn't. He only responded to those who were rude, not those who politely challenged him. I wonder why.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> or becasue there's no point trying on here, deep in the realms of the hard core mainstream "thinkers". Any thought outside of the mainstream belief system, is firstly ridiculed, and then vehimently opposed via name calling, and accusations.


 
if you can back up your opinions, go ahead


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> or becasue there's no point trying on here, deep in the realms of the hard core mainstream "thinkers". Any thought outside of the mainstream belief system, is firstly ridiculed, and then vehimently opposed via name calling, and accusations.


 
What do YOU think of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, xes?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

monothought clique- you don't even respond when people take the effort to explain their thinking xes.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> What do YOU think of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, xes?



Not as good as Return of the Jedi.


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> What do YOU think of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, xes?


 
No idea, not read them/it.


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I didn't. Frogwoman didn't. He only responded to those who were rude, not those who politely challenged him. I wonder why.


 
I dunno, ask him? I guess being called a racist and stuff, grated a bit. Can't for the life of me think why.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

how do you know that people were just reacting to his statement about believing what's in it, as part of a monothought clique then, if you don't know what it contains? It might be a good idea to read it


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

If you haven't read the protocols of the elders of zion (or at least know what it is) how do you know whether those accusations are justified or not and why someone might be called a racist for saying they believed it?


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Not as good as Return of the Jedi.


 
What is?


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> If you haven't read the protocols of the elders of zion (or at least know what it is) how do you know whether those accusations are justified or not and why someone might be called a racist for saying they believed it?


 
Maybe he had reasons other than "zomg, ze joos are taking over the world!!" And now we won't know. (not through any fault of yours btw, you were, as ever, very polite)


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
.


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Still don't see how that makes him a racist. He believes in a conspiracy. As far as I'm aware, Jewish people aren't a race. They are humans who are Jewish. There is only 1 race. I don't know if he thinks all Jewish people are in on some kind of conspiracy, I would have thought not. I certainly don't. Sure, the banking families which run the world may be Jewish, or many of them. But that's more a statement of who owns somwe banks. Rather than "oh no the Jews are coming" bollocks which gets lumped in when ever someone mentions banking families.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Do you understand why it gets "lumped in"?


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Do you understand why it gets "lumped in"?


 
To an extent, yes. As the conspiracies do get tied in with it. I dunno, I just think it's lazy, to lump anyone as a racist, or any ist, without actually knowing their beliefs on something. (and again, this isn't something I'm accusing you of) but as he was jumped on by the usual suspects, we'll never get to find out. And anyway, TBTB aren't all Jewish, they're mostly Lucifarians


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Still don't see how that makes him a racist. He believes in a conspiracy. As far as I'm aware, Jewish people aren't a race. They are humans who are Jewish. There is only 1 race. I don't know if he thinks all Jewish people are in on some kind of conspiracy, I would have thought not. I certainly don't. Sure, the banking families which run the world may be Jewish, or many of them. But that's more a statement of who owns somwe banks. Rather than "oh no the Jews are coming" bollocks which gets lumped in when ever someone mentions banking families.



The problem with anti-semitism is that it is structural. You don't even have to mention jews to follow the exact same logic of the anti-semite.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> What is?



The Chronicles of Narnia.


----------



## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> The Chronicles of Narnia.


 
0/10


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

> And anyway, TBTB aren't all Jewish, they're mostly Lucifarians


 
So what? 

Isn't thinking that the Protocols are real and that you can see that the "plan" of the protocols is being carried out a pretty big clue to someone's real beliefs, especially when they refuse to answer any further questions on it?


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> So what?
> 
> Isn't thinking that the Protocols are real and that you can see that the "plan" of the protocols is being carried out a pretty big clue to someone's real beliefs, especially when they refuse to answer any further questions on it?


 
Can't answer that, as I can't say what he would or wouldn't have said, or why he believed the these Protocols are real/being played out. But no, I can't gleam someones entire belief system on a 1 liner.

I have work to do, be back later....


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

He refused to answer the question.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2011)

Santino said:


> 0/10



You think that my insinuation that it's a work of fiction is trolling?

How odd.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I dunno, ask him? I guess being called a racist and stuff, grated a bit. Can't for the life of me think why.


 
He stated a racist opinion. Why do you think I called him a racist?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Maybe he had reasons other than "zomg, ze joos are taking over the world!!" And now we won't know. (not through any fault of yours btw, you were, as ever, very polite)


 
By your own admission, you don't know what the protocols are. Yet you continue to have an opinion about it.


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> He refused to answer the question.


 
Ok, lets try another angle. And I'm coming from a position of total ignorance to these protocols of zion. (please bare that in mind) Now, my question would be, are there any parallels in todays world, and what is said in the Protocols of zion?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Still don't see how that makes him a racist. He believes in a conspiracy. As far as I'm aware, Jewish people aren't a race. They are humans who are Jewish. There is only 1 race. I don't know if he thinks all Jewish people are in on some kind of conspiracy, I would have thought not. I certainly don't. Sure, the banking families which run the world may be Jewish, or many of them. But that's more a statement of who owns somwe banks. Rather than "oh no the Jews are coming" bollocks which gets lumped in when ever someone mentions banking families.



Yet you continue to have an opinion on something you admit to knowing nothing about.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Ok, lets try another angle. And I'm coming from a position of total ignorance to these protocols of zion. (please bare that in mind) Now, my question would be, are there any parallels in todays world, and what is said in the Protocols of zion?


 
Possibly. 

Do you know why this banking family stuff is "lumped-in" with anti-semitism in a way that, say, marxist or anarchist critiques are not?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> To an extent, yes. As the conspiracies do get tied in with it. I dunno, I just think it's lazy, to lump anyone as a racist, or any ist, without actually knowing their beliefs on something. (and again, this isn't something I'm accusing you of) but as he was jumped on by the usual suspects, we'll never get to find out. And anyway, TBTB aren't all Jewish, they're mostly Lucifarians



If someone states they think the protocols describe what is happening in the world, they are racist.


----------



## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Yet you continue to have an opinion on something you admit to knowing nothing about.


 
Can I only have an opinion on things I've done a PHD in?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 8, 2011)

its one of the 20th centuries best pieces of horrific agit prop. It rings many bells if you haven't actually thought about the nature of geopolitics beforehand.


----------



## agricola (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Ok, lets try another angle. And I'm coming from a position of total ignorance to these protocols of zion. (please bare that in mind) Now, my question would be, are there any parallels in todays world, and what is said in the Protocols of zion?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Ok, lets try another angle. And I'm coming from a position of total ignorance to these protocols of zion. (please bare that in mind) Now, my question would be, are there any parallels in todays world, and what is said in the Protocols of zion?


 


> The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fraudulent antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan to achieve global domination
> 
> Pipes notes that the Protocols emphasizes recurring themes of conspiratorial antisemitism: "Jews always scheme", "Jews are everywhere", "Jews are behind every institution", "Jews obey a central authority, the shadowy 'Elders'", and "Jews are close to success.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Can't answer that, as I can't say what he would or wouldn't have said, or why he believed the these Protocols are real/being played out. But no, I can't gleam someones entire belief system on a 1 liner.


 
If you didn't revel so much in your own ignorance, you may be able to sus things out a bit better.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Possibly.


 RACIST!!11!!!  


> Do you know why this banking family stuff is "lumped-in" with anti-semitism in a way that, say, marxist or anarchist critiques are not?


 Not really, no. But I guess I should stop trying to have an opinion on it, Blagsta has told me I'm not allowed to talk about things that I don't know the entire history of.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Ok, lets try another angle. And I'm coming from a position of total ignorance to these protocols of zion. (please bare that in mind) Now, my question would be, are there any parallels in todays world, and what is said in the Protocols of zion?


 
Do you know how to use Google?


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino:  I believe 9/11 was ordered by the neocons within the US government and probably implemented by their mossad assets, from what I've been able to piece together...
> 
> I was at 9/11, in fact I turned down a job for Lehman Brothers on the 40th floor tower one just a month before... there were many very fishy things that happened on the day that didn't really dawn on me until weeks after... I was also a volunteer firefighter for the town I lived in and while I missed the first truck into the city (they helped FDNY with rescue operations) I was at a staging point in Secaucus and heard some very strange stories from the injured fire fighters)


 


Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?



.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Can I only have an opinion on things I've done a PHD in?


 
Oh, a straw man. Fuck off.


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## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

Erm, have a guess?


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

agricola said:


>


 
lovely, well thought out and reasoned response. I really learnt alot from this post


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## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> its one of the 20th centuries best pieces of horrific agit prop. It rings many bells if you haven't actually thought about the nature of geopolitics beforehand.


 
Yup.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> RACIST!!11!!!
> Not really, no. But I guess I should stop trying to have an opinion on it, Blagsta has told me I'm not allowed to talk about things that I don't know the entire history of.


 
Fuck off xes, stop misrepresenting things to cover up your own inadequacies.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Fuck off xes, stop misrepresenting things to cover up your own inadequacies.


 
I've already stated a few times that I don't know much/anything about the PoZ. That means I'm never allowed to mention it ever again. (according to Lord Blagsta) And no, you fuck off and stop pretending you know everything.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I've already stated a few times that I don't know much/anything about the PoZ. That means I'm never allowed to mention it ever again. (according to Lord Blagsta) And no, you fuck off and stop pretending you know everything.


 
A quick fucking Google is all that is needed.


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Not even that.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Do you know how to use Google?


 
Well?


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I've already stated a few times that I don't know much/anything about the PoZ. That means I'm never allowed to mention it ever again. (according to Lord Blagsta) And no, you fuck off and stop pretending you know everything.


 
Scroll up to post #263. That gives you a very brief summary.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> Not even that. I posted a quick summary of it on this thread.


 
Being ignorant is one thing, deliberately staying ignorant is dumb.


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Being ignorant is one thing, deliberately staying ignorant is dumb.


 
xes is just having some fun.


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

Or he is working, and hasn't time to go into a long reply at the moment. 

I've read your post Dillinger, thank you. 

(but this is a little bit fun)


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> xes is just having some fun.


 
Yeah, racism's a right laugh.


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## Dillinger4 (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Or he is working, and hasn't time to go into a long reply at the moment.
> 
> I've read your post Dillinger, thank you.
> 
> (but this is a little bit fun)



I know how you roll xes


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Or he is working, and hasn't time to go into a long reply at the moment.
> 
> I've read your post Dillinger, thank you.



Thing is xes, this has been gone through with you before, yet you continue to claim ignorance.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> Hello Starbuck, and welcome. I'm afraid you're not going to find many in agreement with your cause. Everyone thinks that the FotL movment is some kind of right wing nazi thing. Although I've still not worked out how wanting the goverment to step back from controling our lives is right wing. Maybe you can explain how it isn't, better than this drunken old (young  ) fool/ "deluded bullshitter"  can.


 
I don't think it's anything to do with being a "right wing Nazi thing" (is there such a thing as a left-wing nazi outside of PBman's brain?). It's more to do with the same sort of muddled constitutionalism (if you can grace the ragbag of precedents, laws and customary usages we labour under as a "constitution") that's got people riled up for at least the last 3 centuries.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> can't be any worse than what we have now. A near dictatorship goverment, fleecing you at every turn, oh, I'm sorry, taxing you at every turn..bringing in thousands of "laws" to keep us safe from tewwowists. And basically intruding in every single aspect of our lives, for our own good, of course. Becasue they love us, so very, very much. Fuck them, and fuck those who support them.


 
How many protests against new laws you disliked did you attend/have you attended? How often have you lobbied your elected representatives and/or the media about issues that you disagree with? What have you actually *done* to prevent this stuff (besides posting on urban)?

'Cos if you haven't gotten off your arse, you can't really complain. You're the victim of your own complacency.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I need a government to maintain the rule of law, heal me when I'm ill, educate my children, build and maintain my transport system, provide heat, light, water and power, take away my garbage and all the other things that are collectively good for society.


 
So what you need doesn't necessarily have to be a government _per se_, but could be alternative social structures that fulfilled the same or a similar role, possibly more democratically?


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## xes (Mar 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> How many protests against new laws you disliked did you attend/have you attended? How often have you lobbied your elected representatives and/or the media about issues that you disagree with? What have you actually *done* to prevent this stuff (besides posting on urban)?
> 
> 'Cos if you haven't gotten off your arse, you can't really complain. You're the victim of your own complacency.


 I've been on about 20 protests in my life. And I'll be on the March 26th demo.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @Santino
> 
> I don't know if the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are genuine or not but read them then look around you... it looks to me like the plan is in effect, don't you think so?


 
I've read them, and there isn't any "plan" to them, just a load of implications about how a "plan" exists, and how it's being carried out. It's also proveably a plagiarism of a previously-existing work of fiction, if that helps. 

Me, I wish that the children of Zion actually did rule the world. it'd make my life more interesting, lording it over the _Goyim_.


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> I've been on about 20 protests in my life. And I'll be on the March 26th demo.


 
Glad to hear it.  I bet none of the FotL people will be there.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

xes said:


> And just how is our politics progressing at the moment? Or is it just a stagnant pond of scum, thinking of new ways to rip us off, and keep us under control?


 
You're labouring under the illusion that "politics" is the same as "party politics" or "parliamentary politics". It isn't. Politics is about people being able to (if ever they can get off their arses and get organised) effect change in their personal and communal circumstances.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Right, so you are a bunch of racists.
> 
> Glad we got that sorted.


 
<pedant>
Anti-Semites.
</pedant>


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## Blagsta (Mar 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> <pedant>
> Anti-Semites.
> </pedant>


 
Same thing.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> j00s


 
Fucken Lizardo-Yiddish scum!


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## kyser_soze (Mar 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> So what you need doesn't necessarily have to be a government _per se_, but could be alternative social structures that fulfilled the same or a similar role, possibly more democratically?


 
See this anarchist wheedling? They get in under yer chin & wheedle their nonsense about self-government that isn't selfish (now there's a soundbite!).



> Me, I wish that the children of Zion actually did rule the world. it'd make my life more interesting, lording it over the Goyim.



You'd still have a 'mare getting on a bus, you know? That wouldn't change. I'd see to it by using my 'semitic' nose (someone once said I have a 'jew nose, or like an arab' ) to infiltrate the CoZ.


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## kyser_soze (Mar 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're labouring under the illusion that "politics" is the same as "party politics" or "parliamentary politics". It isn't. Politics is about people being able to (if ever they can get off their arses and get organised) effect change in their personal and communal circumstances.


 
It's the same as attempting to explain to fela that politics exists as soon as you have an action & two humans to complete it.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> I'm not sure this question was directed at me but I will accept the mantle of 'loon' upon proof of claim that I am mentally deficient in some fashion
> 
> Why do you pay Council Tax?
> 
> Some might say its because it pays for local services... but what if you were told by the council, in writing, that Council Tax is not collected for services? I have that in black and white.



And technically, it's true. it isn't "collected for services". It's collected and remitted to central government, who then remit it (well, some of it, the portion that they don't keep for themselves) *back* to the local authorities, allocated along strict budgetary guidelines. If the money were indeed collected and spent locally, with little or no central government interference, people would probably see more immediate benefits (as we used to with the old rates system).



> The real reason that most people pay council tax, despite there being no law requiring you to pay it, is because of the consequences they might face if they didn't... purely threats and coersion.



Please quantify "most".



> How many people would continue to pay Council Tax if the knew they weren't required by law to do so and they were not afraid of the possible consequences?


 
I'd say, probably either a significant minority or a small majority, so somewhere between 45-60% of those who were billed, mainly because they realise that, outwith the local authority structures that facilitate many services, a lot of shit wouldn't get done.


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## BlackArab (Mar 8, 2011)

Bloody hell. What happened to the English Farrakhan? has he gone for good? Was just starting to get interesting.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> See this anarchist wheedling? They get in under yer chin & wheedle their nonsense about self-government that isn't selfish (now there's a soundbite!).





It's not just about self-government, though, although that has to be where things start from. 




> You'd still have a 'mare getting on a bus, you know? That wouldn't change. I'd see to it by using my 'semitic' nose (someone once said I have a 'jew nose, or like an arab' ) to infiltrate the CoZ.



Yeah, but I have problems getting on a bus because of physical disability, and anyway, the Rothschilds provide me with a car for when I'm perpetrating evil world-governing acts.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Doesn't matter what the definition is. If the powerful say it is something else, then it is.


 
Those who control the discourse control what the definition can be said/claimed to mean.


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## Crispy (Mar 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> So what you need doesn't necessarily have to be a government _per se_, but could be alternative social structures that fulfilled the same or a similar role, possibly more democratically?


 
That would be fine. What the FotL people seem to lack is any sort of thesis for what the replacements might be.



ViolentPanda said:


> Those who control the discourse control what the definition can be said/claimed to mean.


 
Yep!


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## Santino (Mar 8, 2011)

We could get rid of money too, and replace it with a series of vouchers guaranteed by the democratic social structure that can be used in exchange for goods and services.


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## London_Calling (Mar 8, 2011)

Like shareholdings in nationalised banks?


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## classicdish (Mar 8, 2011)

--edit--


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> That would be fine. What the FotL people seem to lack is any sort of thesis for what the replacements might be.



I suspect that there's an element of "magical thinking" going on, that the dissolution of such structures will magically bring about new and non-contributory structures. Such faith in altruism would be fine, if any of these people actually gave any impression at all that they themselves were altruists, rather than selfish egotists.


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## kenny g (Mar 9, 2011)

why use any form of exchange? Haven't you heard of real socialism i.e www.worldsocialism.org ?


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 9, 2011)

Ooh squeegees. I found some squeegee cards on a table in a Wetherspoons last weekend, I was well chuffed. Can't remember what they said now though. Which is kind of the problem.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> The right aren't using them, the position is inherently individualist in the mould of right libertarianism (except the crown gets to be final arbiter LOL)
> 
> Certainly not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as any of the english socialist movements.


 
Their could be a libertarian/left position built using such free born Englishmen rhetoric though, civil war reminiscences etc. English socialist movements have used these arguments before, the proto socialism of the Diggers, the Putney debates etc and defence of the commons have been socialist concerns (Cobbett, Milton/Thompson etc). Even the CPGB published a libertarian pamphlet and marched in the 1930s on the back of a libertarian critical socialist tradition. A 'Socialism' without authentic participatory democracy is dictatorship, and that is the lesson of the 20th century.


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## Giles (Mar 15, 2011)

Starbuck said:


> @ProperTidy  I am not, and I don't know anyone who is in this movement... and a a black guy myself, I think I would be able to spot them eh?
> 
> @xes:  I'm not here to get agreement with our cause, I'm here because as you say everyone thinks that FMOTL is a right wing Nazi organisation... I am here to peacefully answer your questions and inform you... your agreement is optional
> 
> ...


 
I always thought that when someone says to me "do you understand?" what they actually meant was "do you get the meaning of what I have just said to you?".

And I genuinely didn't know about governments making laws that are "sold as collateral for loans"! Wow! If the Road Traffic Act is worth 10 billion, how much is, say, the Dangerous Dogs Act"?

What about laws that generally attract punishment of imprisonment, as opposed to fines? I suppose they aren't worth anything at all, then, are they?

Is there an exchange or anywhere where I could see how much the government are selling off these rights to collect fines?

Giles..


Giles..


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## binka (Mar 16, 2011)

Giles said:


> I always thought that when someone says to me "do you understand?" what they actually meant was "do you get the meaning of what I have just said to you?".


 
thats what i used to think but i was coming home from work tonight on my motorbike was just getting up to 70 on the main road when some old fella decided to step out onto the zebra crossing. i screeched to a halt absolutley fuming so i kicked him to death at the side of the road. police show up and try to arrest me on suspicion of murder but when the copper says 'do you understand?' i remembered this topic and said 'no'. well what else could he do? he sent me on my way.


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## Santino (Mar 17, 2011)

binka said:


> thats what i used to think but i was coming home from work tonight on my motorbike was just getting up to 70 on the main road when some old fella decided to step out onto the zebra crossing. i screeched to a halt absolutley fuming so i kicked him to death at the side of the road. police show up and try to arrest me on suspicion of murder but when the copper says 'do you understand?' i remembered this topic and said 'no'. well what else could he do? he sent me on my way.


 
I remember this, because I was that dead man.


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## Bernie Gunther (May 4, 2011)

They don't like it up 'em apparently ... (I'm assuming I'm not the only one getting 'YouTube has blocked people in the UK from this content at government request' ?)


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## TopCat (May 4, 2011)

Giles said:


> I always thought that when someone says to me "do you understand?" what they actually meant was "do you get the meaning of what I have just said to you?".
> 
> And I genuinely didn't know about governments making laws that are "sold as collateral for loans"! Wow! If the Road Traffic Act is worth 10 billion, how much is, say, the Dangerous Dogs Act"?
> 
> ...


 
Tell me this is a wind up please...


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## Blagsta (May 4, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> They don't like it up 'em apparently ... (I'm assuming I'm not the only one getting 'YouTube has blocked people in the UK from this content at government request' ?)




I think it's illegal to film inside court rooms.


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## MellySingsDoom (May 4, 2011)

Giles said:


> And I genuinely didn't know about governments making laws that are "sold as collateral for loans"! Wow!



I know - in fact, any assumption like that sounds suspiciously like a "global conspiracy" to rule by "money supply" etc - someone's been reading the Protocols again


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