# Barclays have been very naughty indeed.



## likesfish (Jun 27, 2012)

£250 million quid fine 
 1/4 billion quid 
 About 5%profit 

bob diamonds not taking his bonus this year which is nice


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 27, 2012)

Lying about their Libor rate. It makes you wonder whether this (mal)practice is more widespread amongst other banks as well...capitalism in 'cooking the books' shocker!


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## claphamboy (Jun 27, 2012)

The fine was actually £290m.

And, yes, it looks like other banks were involved and will also be fined, Barclays was just the first up against the wall.

BBC report.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 27, 2012)

The 'free market' in operation.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2012)

No dividend for customers then?


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 27, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> The fine was actually £290m.
> 
> And, yes, it looks like other banks were involved and will also be fined, Barclays was just the first up against the wall.
> 
> BBC report.


'Up against the wall'. That seems a bit excessive. The big fine should have been enough. How many of their executives will be shot? Can the public go and watch?


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## Frankie Jack (Jun 27, 2012)

Jail 'em all


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 27, 2012)

Banks in 'cunts' shocker.


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## articul8 (Jun 27, 2012)

Why no criminal prosecutions?!


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## joustmaster (Jun 27, 2012)

i blame the lib dems


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## coltrane (Jun 27, 2012)

Bob Diamond on 11th Jan 2011:

‘There was a period of remorse and apology for banks. I think that period needs to be over.’

Thieving Tosser.


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## articul8 (Jun 27, 2012)

Bob Diamond should be ritually disembowled on prime time TV as a deterrent


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Bob Diamond should be ritually disembowled on prime time TV as a deterrent


 
Bloody liberal!
First the bastinado, then a session standing in a cellar in a pool of piss, handcuffed to a radiator, while given electric shocks, and then impalement on a traffic cone filled with concrete and lubed with chilli oil.

You'd get a good 24 hours of high-ratings telly out of that!


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## love detective (Jun 27, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The 'free market' in operation.


 
that's the thing, for all the talk about how free markets aid in 'price discovery', the benchmark rate which is used for pricing hundreds of trillions of contracts is set everyday not by actually looking at the actual rates of transactions done in the market, but on daily surveys where the main banks state what their 'hypothetical' rate would be to borrow/lend in the interbank market - ironically this process is actually called 'LIBOR fixing'


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## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> 'Up against the wall'. That seems a bit excessive. The big fine should have been enough. How many of their executives will be shot? Can the public go and watch?


a) how many executives have they got; b) it could be the opening ceremony of the olympic games. and the closing ceremony. then for the paralympics we could move on to rbs & natwest. imagine the television figures


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## UrbaneFox (Jun 27, 2012)

Well at least they've taken down the sign on the way out that asked "Did the cashier make you feel special today?"

Bastardos.


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## southside (Jun 27, 2012)

Bob Diamond.

Even his name makes you think "Cunt"


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## rover07 (Jun 27, 2012)

He's waived his bonus and said sorry.

So let's forget about the whole thing and move on.


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## gosub (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> The fine was actually £290m.
> 
> And, yes, it looks like other banks were involved and will also be fined, Barclays was just the first up against the wall.
> 
> BBC report.


Newsnight reckoned Barclays came clean early so getting light treatment, other banks in more shit.


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## rover07 (Jun 28, 2012)

The Bankers are really struggling at the moment. 

If we all chipped in some money, maybe we can help them out.

 £140 Billion should do it. Maybe cut down on housing benefit or something.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 28, 2012)

I think we should all skip lunch everyday and give them the money we saved.


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## rover07 (Jun 28, 2012)

And do children really need a hot meal at school?


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## free spirit (Jun 28, 2012)

rover07 said:


> And do children really need a hot meal at school?


or even a school at all.

a sandwich in the park once a month with some well meaning big society teacher should suffice surely.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 28, 2012)

freespirit said:


> or even a school at all.
> 
> a sandwich in the park once a month with some well meaning big society teacher should suffice surely.


Don't be silly, how are venture capitalists going to make any money if there are no schools to make a profit from?


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

coltrane said:


> Bob Diamond on 11th Jan 2011:
> 
> ‘There was a period of remorse and apology for banks. I think that period needs to be over.’
> 
> Thieving Tosser.


 
TBF to Diamond, not a comfortable position to be in, but he only became Chief Executive in 2011,  whereas this scam was running between 2005 & 2009.

Despite that, I would still watch him being ritually disembowled on TV.


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## contadino (Jun 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Why no criminal prosecutions?!


 
http://www.andywightman.com/?p=1304



> This evening I submitted the following report to the Tower Hamlets Division of the Metropolitan Police.
> _“I am contacting you as the police authority responsible for the area in which Barclays PLC, 1 Churchill Place, London has its HQ. From press reports today and, in particular on the basis of the Final Notice issued by the Financial Services Authority today, 27 June 2012 (FSA Reference No. 122702), I have reason to believe that a crime of fraud has been committed by Barclays Bank PLC and hereby report this alleged crime to the Metropolitan Police.”_
> Section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 would seem to cover matters nicely.
> I look forward to their response.


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

BBC is reporting this morning that a criminal investigation has not be ruled out.


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## likesfish (Jun 28, 2012)

Banks 
 Incompetant amd criminal.  

Break out the icepicks comrades


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## Voley (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> BBC is reporting this morning that a criminal investigation has not be ruled out.


I'm struggling to think of a reason why that wasn't the first approach to dealing with this. Other than the obvious 'one rule for them'. It's serious fraud, surely.


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## contadino (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> BBC is reporting this morning that a criminal investigation has not be ruled out.


 
I saw that the US DoJ claim to be considering criminal investigations. I couldn't see anything about anyone in the UK getting uppity...?

Oh, and fucking Lord Myners piping up...wasn't he responsible for the FSA when all this was going on..?


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## weltweit (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> TBF to Diamond, not a comfortable position to be in, but he only became Chief Executive in 2011, whereas this scam was running between 2005 & 2009.


At which time he was responsible for ... wait for it ... the department that set the LIBOR rate!!


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

contadino said:


> I saw that the US DoJ claim to be considering criminal investigations. I couldn't see anything about anyone in the UK getting uppity...?


 
I only saw a report saying criminal investigations had not been ruled out, it didn't mention in which country, so you could be right that it only applies to the US.

In fact Barclays may get away with a criminal investigations in the UK & EU, as they were whistle-blowers for the scam.



> Barclays received reduced penalties for early co-operation and said it had been granted conditional leniency from the antitrust division of the DoJ with respect to Euribor. It has also sought whistleblower status from the European Commission’s competition commission which is looking at whether there was a cartel to affect the rates and was not part of Wednesday’s settlement.​​http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2a4479f8-c030-11e1-9867-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1z4VNfAUA


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

weltweit said:


> At which time he was responsible for ... wait for it ... the department that set the LIBOR rate!!


 
Oh right, I didn't know that.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 28, 2012)

On Radio 4's Today programme this morning, an interviewee talked about how the behaviour re. LIBOR might be explicable (the inference was even excusable) in the context of the bank's existence being threatened, but it was the fact that it pre-dated the financial crisis that made it so bad. I'm sure these sorts of head of a pin (or pin head) distinctions will be poured over to detect any potential wriggle room for those responsible (particularly those responsible for oversight and management).

A political point worth re-making is that those of us who are 'all in this together', are where we are, in part at least, because a very few people/organisations were only in it for themselves. As such they need to bear the responsibility for their actions and inactions.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## love detective (Jun 28, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I'm sure these sorts of head of a pin (or pin head) distinctions will be poured over to detect any potential wriggle room for those responsible (particularly those responsible for oversight and management).


 
There's zero wriggle room on this really - take a look at some of the internal emails that have been published about it



> We have another big fixing tom[orrow] and with the market move I was hoping we could set [certain] Libors as high as possible


 


> As the U.S. Dollar senior submitter said in October 2008 to his supervisor at the time, “following on from my conversation with you I will reluctantly, gradually and artificially get my libors in line with the rest of the contributors as requested. I disagree with this approach as you are well aware. I will be contributing rates which are nowhere near the clearing rates for unsecured cash and therefore will not be posting honest prices.”


 


> Trader C: “The big day [has] arrived… My NYK are screaming at me about an unchanged 3m libor. As always, any help wd be greatly appreciated. What do you think you’ll go for 3m?”
> 
> Submitter: “I am going 90 altho 91 is what I should be posting”.
> 
> ...


 


> Submitter: “Hi All, Just as an FYI, I will be in noon’ish on Monday […]”.
> 
> Trader B: “Noonish? Whos going to put my low fixings in? hehehe”


 


> on 26 October 2006, an external trader made a request for a lower three month US dollar LIBOR submission. The external trader stated in an email to Trader G at Barclays “If it comes in unchanged I’m a dead man”. Trader G responded that he would “have a chat”. Barclays’ submission on that day for three month US dollar LIBOR was half a basis point lower than the day before, rather than being unchanged. The external trader thanked Trader G for Barclays’ LIBOR submission later that day: “Dude. I owe you big time! Come over one day after work and I’m opening a bottle of Bollinger”


 


> In addition, certain Barclays Euro swaps traders, led at the time by a senior trader, coordinated with and aided and abetted traders at other banks in each other’s attempts to manipulate Euribor, even scheming to impact Euribor on key standardized dates when many derivatives contracts are settled or reset.
> 
> The traders’ requests were frequently accepted by Barclays’ submitters, who emailed responses such as “always happy to help,” “for you, anything,” or “Done…for you big boy,” resulting in false submissions by Barclays to the BBA and EBF.


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## tommers (Jun 28, 2012)

BBC said:
			
		

> Former City minister Lord Myners told the BBC's Newsnight that any Barclays staff responsible for manipulating the Libor rate should face the prospect of going to prison.
> He said the behaviour of Barclays staff was the worst he had seen.
> "This is the most corrosive failure of moral behaviour I have seen in a major UK financial institution in my career," he said.


 
 

"Moral behaviour"!  "Major financial institution"!


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## likesfish (Jun 28, 2012)

Ffs what sort of fucking idiots send dodgy messages by it networks.
   They should be jailed for stupidity.

I mean even pc savage could uncover this vast subtle conspracy ( before going to beat up a random black person to blame it on)


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 28, 2012)

love detective said:


> There's zero wriggle room on this really - take a look at some of the internal emails that have been published about it


 
I hope you're right LD. I also hope there is some real panic running round banking offices at the moment, while those responsible wonder who is going to be next; you know the sort of panic that people feel when their jobs, their pensions, their health and social care, their education and the roof over their heads is threatened.

Of course it wont happen because the situations are not really analogous, but sometimes I do just want to see the greedy fuckers put through the mill in the same way that they have unthinkingly/uncaringly done to many many others.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Dan U (Jun 28, 2012)

well said Louis MacNeice

I bet the Coalition are  at all of this as well. everytime they think things calm down and they can get away without regulating their friends properly, the banks go and have yet another fuck up/fraud exposed


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## Kanda (Jun 28, 2012)

First of many banks I would think..


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## silverfish (Jun 28, 2012)

i'm finding the use of the word "naughty" by the media to describe the banks activities a wee bit insulting

You wouldn't say naughty rapist, naughty murderer or naughty fraudster or thief, it just seems to deflate the "crime" to a lesser degree, almost a tut tut, shrug shoulders, boys will be boys type response. BBC world are actually delivering this with a smile


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## happie chappie (Jun 28, 2012)

You can leave a comment or ask a question about Barclay's laughable "Citizenship Report" here:

http://reports.barclays.com/cr11/servicepages/feedback.html

Be quick before the shitstorm of abuse they receive gets too much and it gets taken down.


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## magneze (Jun 28, 2012)

They got away with the sub-prime loans, which was criminal. Will they get away with this? I imagine so.


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## Santino (Jun 28, 2012)

Kanda said:


> First of many banks I would think..


I've seen the number '20' being suggested.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 28, 2012)

Barclays shares are down 7.7% 

...which'll just mean they'll pay out less on their structured products and dividends.


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## magneze (Jun 28, 2012)

Nationalize the retail bank, leave the investment bank to die in a ditch. Kick it if necessary.


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## ExtraRefined (Jun 28, 2012)

I suspect the real fear for Barclays isn't criminal prosecutions, but a massive international class action lawsuit by everyone with variable rate mortgages.


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## treelover (Jun 28, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> On Radio 4's Today programme this morning, an interviewee talked about how the behaviour re. LIBOR might be explicable (the inference was even excusable) in the context of the bank's existence being threatened, but it was the fact that it pre-dated the financial crisis that made it so bad. I'm sure these sorts of head of a pin (or pin head) distinctions will be poured over to detect any potential wriggle room for those responsible (particularly those responsible for oversight and management).
> 
> A political point worth re-making is that those of us who are 'all in this together', are where we are, in part at least, because a very few people/organisations were only in it for themselves. As such they need to bear the responsibility for their actions and inactions.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
No wriggle room for benefit fraud or even genuine mistakes, 'no ifs no buts' remember...


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

Dan U said:


> well said Louis MacNeice
> 
> I bet the Coalition are  at all of this as well. everytime they think things calm down and they can get away without regulating their friends properly, the banks go and have yet another fuck up/fraud exposed


 
I am sure they are, although this scam mainly happened under the last government, despite Labour's attempts to blame this one, Labour is trying to score political points over this, which is likely to back-fire on them.


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

Shares are now down by 18%!  

Other named banks are also suffering large share price drops.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Shares are now down by 18%!
> 
> Other named banks are also suffering large share price drops.


name names


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> name names


 
RBS in particular and if I caught it right HSBC too.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2012)




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## fuck seals (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> TBF to Diamond, not a comfortable position to be in, but he only became Chief Executive in 2011, whereas this scam was running between 2005 & 2009.
> 
> Despite that, I would still watch him being ritually disembowled on TV.


 
during that time he was running BarCap, and would have had direct resposibility for the derivative instruments & traders that we asking for LIBOR manipulation.  he knew or should have known.

i had a meeting with him once.  very oily.


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## Santino (Jun 28, 2012)

fuck seals said:


> during that time he was running BarCap, and would have had direct resposibility for the derivative instruments & traders that we asking for LIBOR manipulation. he knew or should have known.
> 
> i had a meeting with him once. very oily.


Is it true that his heart is actually a diamond?


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## love detective (Jun 28, 2012)

ExtraRefined said:


> I suspect the real fear for Barclays isn't criminal prosecutions, but a massive international class action lawsuit by everyone with variable rate mortgages.


 
you're right the class action stuff is potentially far far more damaging & costly than what's happened already

but it wouldn't just be variable rate mortgage holders, LIBOR is used to set the reference rates on hundreds of trillions worth of financial products, so the potential claimants are far wider than just anyone with mortgages that reference LIBOR


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## fuck seals (Jun 28, 2012)

Santino said:


> Is it true that his heart is actually a diamond?


 
he reminded me of an overfilled sausage.  

in his defence he's charming & intelligent.  wrong 'uns often are ime ...


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## Raminta (Jun 28, 2012)

I struggling to understan from where the banks will pay fins.  I smell a rat some conspiracy going on.


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## Captain Hurrah (Jun 28, 2012)

Don't to be a twat.


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## coltrane (Jun 28, 2012)

fuck seals said:


> during that time he was running BarCap, and would have had direct resposibility for the derivative instruments & traders that we asking for LIBOR manipulation. he knew or should have known.


 
Whilst Diamond Bob was running BarCap his bonuses would have reflected BarCap's performance. BarCap staff got people in other parts of Barclays Bank to manipulate the LIBOR rate to BarCap's advantage (ie. rigging the market, or loading the dice). So i reckon that the fucking weasel should start by repaying any bonuses he has earned since 2005 when this particular scam started. Then some sort of criminal prosecution should be brought against him. Of course, pigs will fly before either of these events will happen. I would settle for removing each of his shiny white teeth with faulty pliers before setting his expensively tailored pants on fire.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 28, 2012)

Raminta said:


> I struggling to understan from where the banks will pay fins. I smell a rat some conspiracy going on.


 
They will pay from their extremely large, invisible, digital, money accounts.


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## gosub (Jun 28, 2012)

yeah,but if paying it makes the bank wobbly, will the government help out?


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## Zabo (Jun 28, 2012)

And while we're at it...Violent Bankers

“That created the risk of recklessness and there was a culture of economic violence – meaning that the leadership changed to an overtly aggressive and macho management style. Failures in that leadership were a factor in what became the collapse of RBS.”

“There were for example rituals of humiliation when managers, watched by Goodwin had to give karaoke performances. Morning management meetings, known as ‘morning prayers’ or ‘morning beatings’, were also used to humiliate senior managers.”

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...n-to-fred-goodwin-s-culture-of-fear-1-2370574


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## Santino (Jun 28, 2012)

In that programme about the history of London neighbourhoods yesterday there was a bit about bankers having to get up at 4.30 in the morning, working all day and then coming home late at night to slump in front of the telly. Cheered me right up.


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## gosub (Jun 28, 2012)

Zabo said:


> And while we're at it...Violent Bankers
> 
> “That created the risk of recklessness and there was a culture of economic violence – meaning that the leadership changed to an overtly aggressive and macho management style. Failures in that leadership were a factor in what became the collapse of RBS.”
> 
> ...


 Ms Penny cannot single handedly change the meaning of violence overnight


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## ayatollah (Jun 28, 2012)

Zabo said:


> And while we're at it...Violent Bankers
> 
> “That created the risk of recklessness and there was a culture of economic violence – meaning that the leadership changed to an overtly aggressive and macho management style. Failures in that leadership were a factor in what became the collapse of RBS.”
> 
> ...


 
I can  verify this from my own experience  , working on a joint public authority/RBS project   with senior staff  at the then RBS headquarters in Edinburgh in the early 90's, the "culture shift" the bank suddenly underwent as ever an increasing   "ruthless banking ethos" replaced the old boys club atmosphere. All the senior RBS staff over 50 had to re-apply for their jobs, and very few survived the cull. So the amiable old buffers (who actually knew something about traditional retail banking) went out, and a new breed of young ruthless, humourless, "high fliers" came in. The ones I met were ghastly creatures. No doubt it was some of them who later thrived under "Fred the Shred" Goodwin .. and set RBS on the road to ruin. This "culture of humiliation and bullying" for senior management  seems to be a feature of tyrannical organisations.  Spookily, Stalin allegedly also had a prediliction for making the Central Committee members dance together at his late night "get togethers" of the inner circle ... dancing to a spooky record he liked .. with all the instruments imitated by howling dogs ! (read that somewhere...so good...it must be true...)


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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

Just got in from from the garden & topping-up the tan, some positive news there  , and flicked on Sky News, and blow me not only is something like 20 other big banks suspected to be involved in this scam, share prices crashing all over the fucking place, but yet another big scam is about to be exposed. 

Large-scale miss-selling of products to small/medium sized businesses that could result in even more massive pay-outs, not as big as the payment protection scam, but still massive.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

love detective said:


> you're right the class action stuff is potentially far far more damaging & costly than what's happened already
> 
> but it wouldn't just be variable rate mortgage holders, LIBOR is used to set the reference rates on hundreds of trillions worth of financial products, so the potential claimants are far wider than just anyone with mortgages that reference LIBOR


 
So, in your opinion, is it likely or possible that such suits might trigger some sort of financial crisis on top of the bowl of clusterfucks that are already festering?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

fuck seals said:


> during that time he was running BarCap, and would have had direct resposibility for the derivative instruments & traders that we asking for LIBOR manipulation. he knew or should have known.
> 
> i had a meeting with him once. very oily.


 
Seal oil?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

Raminta said:


> I struggling to understan from where the banks will pay fins. I smell a rat some conspiracy going on.


 Fuck off, Borat.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Just got in from from the garden & topping-up the tan...


 
AKA scaring the fuck out of your teenage neighbour.



> ...some positive news there  , and flicked on Sky News, and blow me not only is something like 20 other big banks suspected to be involved in this scam, share prices crashing all over the fucking place, but yet another big scam is about to be exposed.
> 
> Large-scale miss-selling of products to small/medium sized businesses that could result in even more massive pay-outs, not as big as the payment protection scam, but still massive.


 
And you can just guess how this'll be dealt with, too: Long drawn-out procedures aimed at deterring claims and minimising exposure.


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## love detective (Jun 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, in your opinion, is it likely or possible that such suits might trigger some sort of financial crisis on top of the bowl of clusterfucks that are already festering?


 
well the knock on impact of proven manipulation of LIBOR rates (the settlements so far are just for attempted manipulation) would be massive in terms of other 'parties' who would be impacted by that manipulation who could then in theory launch class actions for compensation

however, the lion's share of those other 'parties' would be other banks who were no doubt also massaging their LIBOR submission numbers, so i'd imagine any other banks, even if they were impacted on the downside by other bank's doing this, would probably not want to bring any more attention to it, as it's more than likely they also benefited on the upside elsewhere with their own bank doing it, so would be more likely to sit on their hands

However, there will be a lot of hedge funds, insurance funds, pension funds, soverign wealth funds who would be impacted and also are not part of this whole LIBOR setting thing (i.e. they can present clean hands on it), so i'd imagine any big class actions would come from these kind of institutions and could potentially be far more damaging financially & reputationally than what's came out so far

Problem is though this is just finance capital fighting against finance capital - so can't see it getting to the stage where it could start to structurally threaten/weaken finance capital as a whole any more than it already has been weakened

As for ordinary punters, they won't get a look in as usual (other than picking up the costs of the fallout)


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

love detective said:


> well the knock on impact of proven manipulation of LIBOR rates (the settlements so far are just for attempted manipulation) would be massive in terms of other 'parties' who would be impacted by that manipulation who could then in theory launch class actions for compensation
> 
> however, the lion's share of those other 'parties' would be other banks who were no doubt also massaging their LIBOR submission numbers, so i'd imagine any other banks, even if they were impacted on the downside by other bank's doing this, would probably not want to bring any more attention to it, as it's more than likely they also benefited on the upside elsewhere with their own bank doing it, so would be more likely to sit on their hands
> 
> However, there will be a lot of hedge funds, insurance funds, pension funds, soverign wealth funds who would be impacted and also are not part of this whole LIBOR setting thing (i.e. they can present clean hands on it), so i'd imagine any big class actions would come from these kind of institutions and could potentially be far more damaging financially & reputationally than what's came out so far


 
This is what concerned me, not least because in terms of representing the interests of their clients, such businesses would find it hard to avoid seeking recourse, even if the "management of a particular company didn't want to.



> Problem is though this is just finance capital fighting against finance capital - so can't see it getting to the stage where it could start to structurally threaten/weaken finance capital as a whole any more than it already has been weakened


 
Mmmm, good point.



> As for ordinary punters, they won't get a look in as usual (other than picking up the costs of the fallout)


 
Another variation on socialisation of losses.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 28, 2012)




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## claphamboy (Jun 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> AKA scaring the fuck out of your teenage neighbour.


 


The fence has been fixed.


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## Santino (Jun 28, 2012)

It's almost as if capitalism contains inherent contradictions which will inevitably tear it apart.


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## colacubes (Jun 28, 2012)

I know we all hate the Sun *spits*, but they've excelled themselves with tomorrow's headline which is:

_Sign on you crazy Diamond_


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 28, 2012)

Santino said:


> It's almost as if capitalism contains inherent contradictions which will inevitably tear it apart.


 
Not to mention a lot of greedy fuckers.


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## twentythreedom (Jun 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bloody liberal!
> First the bastinado, then a session standing in a cellar in a pool of piss, handcuffed to a radiator, while given electric shocks, and then impalement on a traffic cone filled with concrete and lubed with chilli oil.
> 
> You'd get a good 24 hours of high-ratings telly out of that!


A well thought-through regime of pain, good work VP


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## elbows (Jun 29, 2012)

@*paulmasonnews*
Newsnight in brief: Higgs Boson will be discovered before MPs get answers from Bob Diamond


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## free spirit (Jun 29, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Don't be silly, how are venture capitalists going to make any money if there are no schools to make a profit from?


they'll make more money when all the kids end up on their work programmes being subbed out as free labour to whoever they can get kick backs from while the government pays them through the nose for a service that's shitter than the dole managed themselves 10-15 years ago with job centre plus.

and then from the prisons...

it's just win win win really.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 29, 2012)

Santino said:


> It's almost as if capitalism contains inherent contradictions which will inevitably tear it apart


 
Surely not?


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## two sheds (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm surprised Cameron's demanding some action against Barclays - did they not contribute to tory party funds?


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## Limejuice (Jun 29, 2012)

Very prescient article about Bo-Di from September 2010 http://ind.pn/c27dUR

"What should concern us is less the size of Diamond's bonus than his gargantuan ambition and his miniscule judgement."


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## hipipol (Jun 29, 2012)

Booby claims there were 2 kinds of market rigging, the "Bad" which was arranged between the traders simply to ine their own pockets and the "good" where senior managers engaged in a conspiracy to give false figures to save the bank wedge - he explained this to Huw Van Steenis of Morgan Stanley apperently (another bank being investigated for the same offence)
Subtle stuff eh?
It means he was guilty of the second kind as in some twisted way he feels that kind of corrupt, fruadulent conspiracy is somehow moral less vile.
He seems keen to delve into matters moral and mystical
Next he will ask "How many bankers can Lie on the Head of Pin?"
I opt for burning at the stake personally


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 29, 2012)

weltweit said:


> At which time he was responsible for ... wait for it ... the department that set the LIBOR rate!!


 
Much as I hate to praise anything from a Murdoch rag, this morning's _Sun _headline was a classic: 'Sign On You Crazy Diamond'!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 30, 2012)

froggy: 

even diamonds name makes him sound like a cunt. you should hear my mum going on about this


----------



## Dr Jon (Jun 30, 2012)

Posters of a certain age may remember this shower of money juggling twats being boycotted for their support of apartheid in South Africa.

Vermin.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2012)

Dr Jon said:


> Posters of a certain age may remember this shower of money juggling twats being boycotted for their support of apartheid in South Africa.
> 
> Vermin.


 
BZW. They used to store hard copy at a data archive I worked at. Amazing how many people took dumps in their files, even people who weren't particularly political.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 30, 2012)

Dr Jon said:


> Posters of a certain age may remember this shower of money juggling twats being boycotted for their support of apartheid in South Africa.
> 
> Vermin.


Oh yes, except for a few extremely venal so and sos who played the student incentive system and basically paid their grant into one bank, worte a cheque for the entire amount and paid it into the next etc etc.

One of them was silly/brave enough to turn up with his notes in a Barclays ringbinder. He only did it once. He wasn't threatened or ostracised, but having to justify it every time another lot of students spotted it became boring by lunchtime, I think.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 30, 2012)

Bob Diamond In "Cluster Bomb Up The Arse Shocker"

Off with his head.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 30, 2012)

> Meanwhile, legal action being brought across the Atlantic suggests the scandal is spreading. A lawsuit filed by the US stockbroking firm Charles Schwab alleges that Barclays was one of 16 banks whose manipulation of interbank lending rates "artificially depressed the value of tens of billions of dollars" in funds held by investors. It alleges the defendants, which include Lloyds, HSBC and RBS, "knowingly colluded" to keep the rates low and "engaged in a media strategy" to deflect attention from their actions. The banks are contesting the allegations.


 
Oh dear. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/30/vince-cable-shareholders-bank-cheats


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 30, 2012)

on a more cheery note ( comparatively ) high st bank wise

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/30/coop-poised-breakthough-anger-banks?intcmp=239


----------



## gosub (Jul 1, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/30/vince-cable-shareholders-bank-cheats


According to Sundays times :Sandy Chen, analyst at Cenkos securities estimates Barclays could face demands of £70billion in damages and RBS £80billion


----------



## Dr Jon (Jul 1, 2012)

Cable: The City is a massive cesspit


----------



## teqniq (Jul 1, 2012)

Sacrificial goat sorta thing

Barclays chairman Marcus Agius poised for departure


----------



## magneze (Jul 1, 2012)

Chairman does nothing. They won't get away with just him.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 1, 2012)

Here's hoping


----------



## ayatollah (Jul 1, 2012)

I'm not normally a fan of the "if only capitalism could be more cuddly" , Will Hutton.. but he has a good article in The Guardian today , having a right go at the "banksters. I particularly liked his opening paragraph:-


"Investment banking is an organised scam masquerading as a business. It is defined by endemic conflicts of interest, systemic amoral behaviour and extreme avarice. Many of its senior figures should be serving prison sentences or disgraced – and would have been if British regulators had been weaned off the doctrine of " light touch" regulation earlier and if the Serious Fraud Office's budget had not been emasculated by Mr Osborne. It is a tax on wealth generation and an enemy of honest endeavour – the beast that is devouring British capitalism."

Yes indeedy. Never mind his reformist  belief that Capitalism  could be "honest endeavour" without the nasty banksters -  His wail for fundamental reform does raise the interesting issue that Finance Capital now has reached such a scale of bought political influence worldwide to parallel its cancer-like feeding on the rest of capitalism, that no national government appears to be able or willing to set new laws and regulations in place to control its chaotic rampage. Oh, apart from Ed Miliband - he's cracked it , with his demand for a new  set of "rules of conduct" that banksters must sign up to... that'll put the crazed beast back in its cage then !


----------



## magneze (Jul 2, 2012)

Ah yes, more rules. Because the banks followed the last set just fine.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 2, 2012)

It's this sort of thing that gives the lie to the whole "unrestricted market capitalism" schtick that has become the political norm in the UK. In the absence of strict state regulation what happens in a free market is that the greediest and least honest distort the market to their own ends. Economic and political theories that don't take this onto account are basically a stinking festering heap of banker poo.


----------



## gosub (Jul 2, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Sacrificial goat sorta thing
> 
> Barclays chairman Marcus Agius poised for departure


is he resigning as Chair of BBA as well?

oh he did an hour ago  http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...z2CYps6dlusPBgMWg&sig2=f1lm-3tQ3f9agjiQ8e-K3A


----------



## teqniq (Jul 2, 2012)

gosub said:


> is he resigning as Chair of BBA as well?


I have no idea but he ought to. Apparently according to the comment below from the latest Graun piece he is



> This man, who was (and possibly still is) Chairman of the British Bankers’ Association and *Senior Independent Director of the BBC* should resign from all his high-powered jobs, after all, trust is trust?



(my bold)

And therein lies part of the problem. Lots of these people (by this i mean people in a position of power and influence) seem to be on the boards of various large organisations. in fact it seems to be a veritable merry-go-round if you know all the right people and your face fits.

It's the Establishment but it could do with a visit from Rentokill.


----------



## gosub (Jul 2, 2012)

tbf His mistake was appointing and trusting the people below him, he did the right thing in stepping down though. Was discussed on radio 5 last night, where came across at 64 was planning on retiring soon and concentrating on his beloved garden. The jist though was wrong man had gone, but as Chair of body responsible for LIBOR as well as a bank that admitted falsifying it, HIS position was untenable, but he knew that and did the decent thing.
Diamond though is another story attitude seems to be he'll take everybody with him: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18665080 and sadly that we know about this is coz Barclays did a deal so no criminal charges can be placed at their door (unlike the other banks). But the biggest commidity a bank has is trust and they won't get that back while he's there.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 2, 2012)

UK Serious Fraud Office considering whether to bring criminal prosecutions over bank rate-fixing scandal.

I hope the shit hits the fan but fear the weasels will weasel out again...


----------



## teqniq (Jul 2, 2012)

Next month it says on the Graun ticker. So what is it? Give them time to scarper and/or transfer their assets elsewhere?

They didn't hang around arresting rioters, and it seems pretty obvious that a massive fraud has been perpetrated so why the delay?


----------



## elbows (Jul 2, 2012)

elbows said:


> @*paulmasonnews*
> Newsnight in brief: Higgs Boson will be discovered before MPs get answers from Bob Diamond


 
Maybe they'l get some partial answers then 

http://www.chron.com/news/article/APNewsBreak-Proof-of-God-particle-found-3678506.php




> Scientists working at the world's biggest atom smasher plan to announce Wednesday that they have gathered enough evidence to show that the long-sought "God particle" answering fundamental questions about the universe almost certainly does exist.
> But after decades of work and billions of dollars spent, researchers at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, say they aren't quite ready to say they've "discovered" the particle.
> Instead, experts familiar with the research at CERN's vast complex on the Swiss-French border say that the massive data they have obtained will essentially show the footprint of the key particle known as the Higgs boson — all but proving it exists — but doesn't allow them to say it has actually been glimpsed.
> It appears to be a fine distinction. Senior CERN scientists say that the two independent teams of physicists who plan to present their work at CERN's vast complex on the Swiss-French border on July 4 are about as close as you can get to a discovery without actually calling it one.


----------



## love detective (Jul 2, 2012)

Badgers said:


> UK Serious Fraud Office considering whether to bring criminal prosecutions over bank rate-fixing scandal.
> 
> I hope the shit hits the fan but fear the weasels will weasel out again...


 
I wouldn't be surprised if there was actually no criminal case to answer

Bizarre as it may seem and even though it impacts hundreds of trillions of pounds worth of financial products, all that LIBOR setting stuff is done as market custom & practice rather than in accordance with some statutory or regulatory regime - so while it was clearly 'criminal' it may not be technically a crime. Even market abuse (or insider trading) powers wouldn't apply to this as the LIBOR setting process isn't a regulated activity

The other thing that hasn't received much attention is what happens to the money from the fines that Barclays has to pay - they end up going into a pot which in turn goes towards reducing the annual levy that financial institutions have to pay the FSA. So none of it actually gets to public hands, it just gets dished out to other financial institutions, including Barclays


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 2, 2012)

love detective said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there was actually no criminal case to answer
> 
> Bizarre as it may seem and even though it impacts hundreds of trillions of pounds worth of financial products, all that LIBOR setting stuff is done as market custom & practice rather than in accordance with some statutory or regulatory regime - so while it was clearly 'criminal' it may not be technically a crime. Even market abuse (or insider trading) powers wouldn't apply to this as the LIBOR setting process isn't a regulated activity
> 
> *The other thing that hasn't received much attention is what happens to the money from the fines that Barclays has to pay - they end up going into a pot which in turn goes towards reducing the annual levy that financial institutions have to pay the FSA. So none of it actually gets to public hands, it just gets dished out to other financial institutions, including Barclays*


 
This might be about to change, presumably because it is so obviously and damagingly ludicrous that it has become unsustainable.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## gosub (Jul 2, 2012)

love detective said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there was actually no criminal case to answer
> 
> Bizarre as it may seem and even though it impacts hundreds of trillions of pounds worth of financial products, all that LIBOR setting stuff is done as market custom & practice rather than in accordance with some statutory or regulatory regime *- so while it was clearly 'criminal' it may not be technically a crime. Even market abuse (or insider trading) powers wouldn't apply to this as the LIBOR setting process isn't a regulated activity*
> 
> The other thing that hasn't received much attention is what happens to the money from the fines that Barclays has to pay - they end up going into a pot which in turn goes towards reducing the annual levy that financial institutions have to pay the FSA. So none of it actually gets to public hands, it just gets dished out to other financial institutions, including Barclays


 

If thats the case, the UK is fucked, its largest industry sector will atrophy. Only a mug would bet at knowingly rigged tables


----------



## elbows (Jul 2, 2012)

Indeed, when credibility is at stake there is a habit of suddenly finding legal means by which to restore credibility, even if it doesn't result in quite as many people getting banged up as we might like.


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 2, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> love detective said:
> 
> 
> > The other thing that hasn't received much attention is what happens to the money from the fines that Barclays has to pay - they end up going into a pot which in turn goes towards reducing the annual levy that financial institutions have to pay the FSA. So none of it actually gets to public hands, it just gets dished out to other financial institutions, including Barclays
> ...


 
It has now changed, the £290m fine and all future ones will go to the government 'for the public's benefit', rather than to the FSA.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jul 3, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Bob Diamond In "Cluster Bomb Up The Arse Shocker"
> 
> Off with his head.


 
And it's off. Diamond has resigned. Now, prison.


----------



## hipipol (Jul 3, 2012)

I suspect his "Bank of England told me to do it" will get him off the hook
Insuspect it was the fact that his "chats" with a v important BoE git going public is what did it for him
Its not done to reveal wahst been done via a "quiet word"
Its like sjowing how a trick is done, out of the magic circle you go
As the BoE is getting control of the Banks back from the FSA to drop them in it means they will have gone mental behind the scenes - I feel the touch of the mailed fist under the velvet glove here


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> And it's off. Diamond has resigned. Now, prison.


 
Hopefully he'll jump into a flooded river, never to be seen again.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2012)

Yet, Marcus Agius has unresigned as Barclays chairman LOL


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jul 3, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Yet, Marcus Agius has unresigned as Barclays chairman LOL


 
Maybe this is the plan. Diamond resigns today, but unresigns tomorrow. These evil geniuses. They're all like Blowfeld. Kill one and ten more spring up.


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 3, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> And it's off. Diamond has resigned. Now, prison.


 
Yay! 



Mr.Bishie said:


> Yet, Marcus Agius has unresigned as Barclays chairman LOL


 
Boo! 

WTF, is he playing at? How very odd.

ETA: Are you sure about this? All I can find is that Agius will lead the search for Diamond's replacement, which makes sense as although Agius resigned he was staying on until a replacement was found for him, whereas Diamond resigned with immediate effect.


----------



## Gingerman (Jul 3, 2012)

Diomond off to spend more time with his millions....I mean family


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Yay!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
BBCBreaking ​: ​Marcus Agius, who resigned as Barclays chairman on Monday, returns to role + will lead search for new CEO. Details soon​


----------



## love detective (Jul 3, 2012)

it's just crap reporting by the BBC


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 3, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> BBCBreaking ​
> : ​
> Marcus Agius, who resigned as Barclays chairman on Monday, returns to role + will lead search for new CEO. Details soon​


 
Cheers, I suspect whoever tweeted this at the BBC didn't understand that whilst Agius had resigned, he hadn't actually left his role, I just can't see him withdrawing his resignation myself, it just wouldn't play right IMO.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2012)

Fuck knows


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 3, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fuck knows


 
That's probably what they are saying in the BBC newsroom at moment.


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 3, 2012)

Barclays' Bob Diamond resigns - LIVE TEXT coverage from the BBC.



> *John Prescott Former Labour politician *
> *tweets:* I thought 'the buck stopped' with Marcus Agius? Now he's unresigned and Bob Diamond's gone. Did Agius pass the buck to Bob?


 
If Prescott thinks Agius has 'unresigned', I think we can assume that's incorrect.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 3, 2012)

hipipol said:


> I suspect his "Bank of England told me to do it" will get him off the hook
> Insuspect it was the fact that his "chats" with a v important BoE git going public is what did it for him
> Its not done to reveal wahst been done via a "quiet word"
> Its like sjowing how a trick is done, out of the magic circle you go
> As the BoE is getting control of the Banks back from the FSA to drop them in it means they will have gone mental behind the scenes - I feel the touch of the mailed fist under the velvet glove here


 
The 'Bank of England' defence doesn't really wash with regard to the years prior to 2008 when LIBOR was already being manipulated.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 3, 2012)

BBC News Channel now reporting that Agius is taking on an intermediate full-time position to run the bank, IIRC he was only part-time before, so that seems to confirm he isn't withdrawing his resignation, just hanging around whilst replacements for Diamond & himself are found.

Also:



> Marcus Agius, Barclays’ chairman who announced his resignation on Monday, will stay on temporarily to take over the running of the beleaguered bank.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 3, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> It has now changed, the £290m fine and all future ones will go to the government 'for the public's benefit', rather than to the FSA.


 
AKA "we'll use it to put a sticking plaster over some of Gideon's clusterfucks".


----------



## jusali (Jul 3, 2012)

gosub said:


> If thats the case, the UK is fucked, its largest industry sector will atrophy. Only a mug would bet at knowingly rigged tables


 
Yes, this is the biggy! Once we lose our place in finance the UK is totally fucked. It'll be downhill and the only way out is seriously hard work, something we haven't had to do for a long long time.
Fucking suits!


----------



## teqniq (Jul 3, 2012)

Now it's looking like 'So I had to go so I'm dragging a few more with me':



> *4.32pm:*Barclays has dragged the Bank of England, and the last Labour government, deeper into the Libor scandal.
> Its submission to the Treasury Select Committee includes an email apparently written by Bob Diamond on 29 October 2008 (when the crisis was raging), following a telephone call with Paul Tucker of the Bank of England. In the message, Diamond writes that Tucker told him that "a number of senior officials in Whitehall" had expressed concern over the Libor numbers that Barclays had been reported (the rate at which other banks would lend to it).
> 
> 
> ...


​​​ 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/03/bob-diamond-quits-barclays#block-56


----------



## hipipol (Jul 3, 2012)

Its worth recalling that in 2008 Barclays had a major re-financing problem - it had been doing a Northern Rock - borrowing at the short end while lending long. As the short end liquidity vanished, they all shat their pants, they had to find somewhere to borrow the cash as by the middle of the next year they needed to replace loans/bonds/CP equal to around 30% of their outstanding debt. Normally, this just rolls over, but with everyone bricking it, they could not be sure whether they could. Somewhere I have a list of the top 20 refinance need exposed Euro firms, cant find it currently, ripped from FT.Alphaville ( a good read by the way ) but it showd Barcs at No 5 - the top seven other than Barcs went tits up.
Barcs didn't cos they seem to have tapped up a major Omani geezer with wedge beyond all imagining - now there has been no explanation of how much he forked out, as he may not have actually given them much, it might have been enough for their counterparties to have known he stood behind them, but he pocketed around US$2.1billion in fees. In FEES note, not interest in a loan, so that doesn't have to be declared as an interest rate paid so does not have to be reported as a return to the LIBOR dudes.
Tricksy bit of work at best, outright crap and lies in truth


----------



## contadino (Jul 3, 2012)

hipipol said:


> Its worth recalling that in 2008 Barclays had a major re-financing problem - it had been doing a Northern Rock - borrowing at the short end while lending long. As the short end liquidity vanished, they all shat their pants, they had to find somewhere to borrow the cash as by the middle of the next year they needed to replace loans/bonds/CP equal to around 30% of their outstanding debt. Normally, this just rolls over, but with everyone bricking it, they could not be sure whether they could. Somewhere I have a list of the top 20 refinance need exposed Euro firms, cant find it currently, ripped from FT.Alphaville ( a good read by the way ) but it showd Barcs at No 5 - the top seven other than Barcs went tits up.
> Barcs didn't cos they seem to have tapped up a major Omani geezer with wedge beyond all imagining - now there has been no explanation of how much he forked out, as he may not have actually given them much, it might have been enough for their counterparties to have known he stood behind them, but he pocketed around US$2.1billion in fees. In FEES note, not interest in a loan, so that doesn't have to be declared as an interest rate paid so does not have to be reported as a return to the LIBOR dudes.
> Tricksy bit of work at best, outright crap and lies in truth


 
It sounds like you're trying to build a defense for something indefensible.


----------



## youngian (Jul 3, 2012)

Another gem from Max Keiser "interviewing" Bob Diamond-

http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-309-max-keiser


----------



## ska invita (Jul 3, 2012)

interesting numbers and analysis from paul mason 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18688417


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2012)

Is it time to polish my trident?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 3, 2012)

Trident? I fancy a bit of this:


----------



## hipipol (Jul 3, 2012)

contadino said:


> It sounds like you're trying to build a defense for something indefensible.


I draw your attention to the last sentence

"Tricksy bit of work at best, outright crap and lies in truth"

I am merely trying to draw attention to what was happening and also trying to show where they are likely to place their defence
As you are being obtuse let me explain again
I do not agree with this as an excuse

As you need to bristle your indignant correctness I suggesat you wave your bristles at a deserving target


----------



## hipipol (Jul 3, 2012)

contadino said:


> It sounds like you're trying to build a defense for something indefensible.


 
Oh yeah, I forgot


Learn to read and comprehend


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

http://order-order.com/2012/07/03/the-shriti-hiti-the-fan/   quite looking forward to tomorrow , and there i was a couple of weeks pissed off the telly companies blew their  budgets on sport .  Drama aplenty on telly at the mo


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

Any takers for a UK chapter 11 yet?


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

hipipol said:


> I draw your attention to the last sentence
> 
> "Tricksy bit of work at best, outright crap and lies in truth"
> 
> ...


Didn't think it was a loan, thought they bought shares and pissed off existing share holders by not offering like  to them . We are diluting your holding lump it type stylee


----------



## elbows (Jul 3, 2012)

youngian said:


> Another gem from Max Keiser "interviewing" Bob Diamond-
> 
> http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-309-max-keiser


 
Argh my ears, kermit on free market acid hasn't got any calmer in recent years.

There was a time, long before the financial shit hit the fan, that I might occasionally learn something when listening to Keiser, although always had to be careful to syphon out the utter shite. Sadly those days are mostly gone, I could use some ranters with different stripes, not someone who can simply come up with a thousand ways of shouting crooks.


----------



## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

urgh. i just read the comments section on guido.


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

killer b said:


> urgh. i just read the comments section on guido.


Optrex might work .


----------



## hipipol (Jul 3, 2012)

gosub said:


> Didn't think it was a loan, thought they bought shares and pissed off existing share holders by not offering like to them . We are diluting your holding lump it type stylee


 
Oh yes, a special share category - obviously Sharia compliant as as a Muslim ruler/investor COULD NOT POSSIBLY give a loan!!! - which also was able to be sold out after flexible date but with a floating, linear buy out rate (Sukuk Bond anyone?) - ie interest/usuary
It was a fucking loan however disguised


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

hipipol said:


> Oh yes, a special share category - obviously Sharia compliant as as a Muslim ruler/investor COULD NOT POSSIBLY give a loan!!! - which also was able to be sold out after flexible date but with a floating, linear buy out rate (Sukuk Bond anyone?) - ie interest/usuary
> It was a fucking loan however disguised


My brother will be pleased if the Omanis didn't buy into the titanic


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Argh my ears, kermit on free market acid hasn't got any calmer in recent years.
> 
> There was a time, long before the financial shit hit the fan, that I might occasionally learn something when listening to Keiser, although always had to be careful to syphon out the utter shite. Sadly those days are mostly gone, I could use some ranters with different stripes, not someone who can simply come up with a thousand ways of shouting crooks.


He gets interesting guests and can ask them the right questions HIS opinion though meh,


----------



## hipipol (Jul 3, 2012)

gosub said:


> My brother will be pleased if the Omanis didn't buy into the titanic


Do you mean the one that sank or the new  replica/copythat some idiot has claimed he is building?


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2012)

> > <b>gosub said: </b><br />My brother will be pleased if the Omanis didn't buy into the titanic
> 
> 
> <br />Do you mean the one that sank or the new  replica/copythat some idiot has claimed he is building?


Omanis can chill on transport related matters But judge ruling issueer liable on dodgy sub prime when Barclays bought lehmans. ...+libor damages....


----------



## yield (Jul 4, 2012)

ska invita said:


> interesting numbers and analysis from paul mason
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18688417





> But the crisis threatens to escalate in three directions. First to the 20 other global banks who stand accused of manipulating Libor.
> 
> The scale of class-action lawsuits being readied in the United States is, say some, big enough to sink certain of these banks. We will soon hear the results of the other - regulatory and criminal - investigations into the City of London.


There was some talk of Libor being fixed near the beginning of the Global financial system implosion begins thread.
bloomberg April 17, 2008


> Money-market rates may rise after the British Bankers' Association threatened to ban members that deliberately understate their borrowing costs.
> 
> Participants have complained that banks may be submitting inaccurate information amid the global credit squeeze, Angela Knight, chief executive officer of the London-based association, said yesterday. The BBA will exclude banks that give misleading quotes and plans to speed up a review of the daily ``fixing'' process by which borrowing costs are determined, it said.


If it's "big enough to sink certain of these banks." Which ones?

Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world 
newscientist 24 October 2011


> When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a "super-entity" of 147 even more tightly knit companies - all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity - that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. "In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network," says Glattfelder. Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group.





gosub said:


> My brother will be pleased if the Omanis didn't buy into the titanic


Or RMS Lancastria


----------



## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

picture paints a thousand words



A fair bit of evidence emerging as well that a load of big banks all substantially reduced their LIBOR submissions on 30 October 2008, the day after the call between Tucker & Diamond




			
				FT said:
			
		

> On October 29 2008 Mr Diamond as chief executive of Barclays Capital had a telephone conversation with Paul Tucker, deputy governor of the Bank of England, regarding the high level of Barclays’ Libor submissions.
> 
> On that day, Barclays had submitted a rate of 4 per cent for three-month Libor, well above its fellow panel members who help set the benchmark borrowing level.
> 
> ...


 
Was also reported today that Diamond received £119.8m since joining the board of Barclays in 2005


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 4, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> On Radio 4's Today programme this morning, an interviewee talked about how the behaviour re. LIBOR might be explicable (the inference was even excusable) in the context of the bank's existence being threatened, but it was the fact that it pre-dated the financial crisis that made it so bad. I'm sure these sorts of head of a pin (or pin head) distinctions will be poured over to detect any potential wriggle room for those responsible (particularly those responsible for oversight and management).
> 
> A political point worth re-making is that those of us who are 'all in this together', are where we are, in part at least, because a very few people/organisations were only in it for themselves. As such they need to bear the responsibility for their actions and inactions.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
Wriggle room seems to have opened up; combined with 'the finacial services musn't be allowed to fail' argument and the limiting of any investigation to a party political parliamentary enquiry, the possibilities for serious reform seem pretty thin. Look forward to business as usual.

Louis MacNeice (feeling a little LLETSAish)


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

serious reform was never really on the table anyway, it never is

but in terms of transparency of things - the more wriggle room that opens up at the individual level (i.e. barclays as a company) the more wriggle room is closed down at the wider/systematic level - and the less opportunity to use the usual 'bad apple' approach


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2012)

love detective said:


> picture paints a thousand words
> 
> View attachment 20803
> 
> ...


your picture seems to me to suggest something was going on since about the start of 2008


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

yeah - what that graph shows is the difference between Barclays submitted LIBOR rate and the average LIBOR submitted from all banks

so from start of 2008 until the day after the Tucker phone call, Barclays's LIBOR rate was higher than the rest of the market which shows that Barclays was beginning to have more problems in terms of borrowing in the interbank market than other banks, i.e. the signs of stress that got the Bank of England worrying

Then the day after the BOE phonecall, the Barclays submitted rate then became substantially lower than the rest of the market - a drop of 60 basis points in one day (i.e. 4.0 the day before the tucker call and 3.4 the day after) is a huge drop in terms of those numbers

(note the graph itself doesn't show a drop of 60 basis points as the average LIBOR submitted by all banks also dropped quite substantially the day after the Tucker phone call (suggesting systematic, rather than individual, manipulation), and the graph only shows barclays rate relative to the average rate. So that graph shows a drop relative to average of around 35 basis points and the average rate overall dropped around 25 basis points - and these two components parts taken together equate to the 60 basis point drop for barclays)


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 4, 2012)

love detective said:


> *serious reform was never really on the table anyway*, it never is
> 
> but in terms of transparency of things - the more wriggle room that opens up at the individual level (i.e. barclays as a company) the more wriggle room is closed down at the wider/systematic level - and the less opportunity to use the usual 'bad apple' approach


 
I like to have my optimistic moments. I don't possess the personal mental fortitude to fully embrace the miserablist reality.

I take your second point re. systematic excuses...well sort of..although the systematic corruption evidenced by the role of the BoE for example, may well just get spun back into 'there is no alternative'; it may be bad behaviour but we can't afford to do anything about it.

Also, on a different note, I really would like to see a judicial enquiry (as opposed to the parliamentary one being proposed) into the financial services sector, as it would reveal some of the 'networking' between powerful political and financial interests as well as reinforcing the distance between them and us.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 4, 2012)

love detective said:


> serious reform was never really on the table anyway, it never is
> 
> but in terms of transparency of things - the more wriggle room that opens up at the individual level (i.e. barclays as a company) the more wriggle room is closed down at the wider/systematic level - and the less opportunity to use the usual 'bad apple' approach


 
Yep - while I don't believe radical social change is on the cards for the foreseeable future, every example of this sort of behaviour at the very least increases cynicism in and alienation towards key elements of the capitalist system.

And the more obviously toothless and subservient any inquiry the more cyncism that sows towards politicans.

Both of these are good things and increase vaccum into which plausible alternatives can move if they get their act together (not that they will, but that's their/our fault).


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I like to have my optimistic moments. I don't possess the personal mental fortitude to fully embrace the miserablist reality.
> 
> I take your second point re. systematic excuses...well sort of..although the systematic corruption evidenced by the role of the BoE for example, may well just get spun back into 'there is no alternative'; it may be bad behaviour but we can't afford to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


yeah i agree, but there's something satisfying in itself of the rug being pulled away from under the usual 'bad apple' approach to the covering up of scandals

A Leveson for finance would take years, get bogged down in minute detail to hide the wood from the trees, and only tell us what we already knew. It would then spark off even more surface level reforms which would only involve shuffling around the various existing regulators & regulations and the next scandal/crisis would arise in an area that no one (in terms of regulators) expected


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yep - while I don't believe radical social change is on the cards for the foreseeable future, every example of this sort of behaviour at the very least increases cynicism in and alienation towards key elements of the capitalist system.
> 
> And the more obviously toothless and subservient any inquiry the more cyncism that sows towards politicans.
> 
> Both of these are good things and increase vaccum into which plausible alternatives can move if they get their act together (not that they will, but that's their/our fault).


i don't know why you equate 'serious reform' and 'radical social change' - that is, radical social change as something inherently good, when it seems to me that radical social change IS 'on the cards', just not good radical social change.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2012)

love detective said:


> yeah i agree, but there's something satisfying in itself of the rug being pulled away from under the usual 'bad apple' approach to the covering up of scandals
> 
> A Leveson for finance would take years, get bogged down in minute detail to hide the wood from the trees, and only tell us what we already knew. It would then spark off even more surface level reforms which would only involve shuffling around the various existing regulators & regulations and the next scandal/crisis would arise in an area that no one (in terms of regulators) expected


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 4, 2012)

love detective said:


> yeah i agree, but there's something satisfying in itself of the rug being pulled away from under the usual 'bad apple' approach to the covering up of scandals
> 
> *A Leveson for finance would take years*, get bogged down in minute detail to hide the wood from the trees, and only tell us what we already knew. It would then spark off even more surface level reforms which would only involve shuffling around the various existing regulators & regulations and the next scandal/crisis would arise in an area that no one (in terms of regulators) expected


 
Thanks LD - you're helping me clarify my thoughts on this. What I want isn't the enquiry then, but rather the content of the relationships which such an enquiry could expose (the e-mails, meetings, texts and all the rest); this content then becomes available as ammunition in a bigger contest over systematic failures (explanations for and solutions to).

P'sM - I think you're right re. radical social change being on the cards and that not being a good thing; which should make us think about what it is in our current situation that needs conserving (it's a tricky language for those on the left to get to grips with).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 4, 2012)

What time is Diamond on then?


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## gosub (Jul 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>


Is that mr diamond , mr goodwin et al in the foreground?


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## gosub (Jul 4, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> What time is Diamond on then?


2pm . Unless he has a prior appointment under blackfriers bridge


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## Santino (Jul 4, 2012)

gosub said:


> Is that mr diamond , mr goodwin et al in the foreground?


No, they're at home, sacking the sailors the instant the boat has gone down.


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## ayatollah (Jul 4, 2012)

Presumeably that's the end of LIBOR as a globally accepted benchmark for interest rates then.....

Are we going to discover next that there has been a long term fiddling of Greenwich Mean Time over the years and this is really 2020 ?


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## bignose1 (Jul 4, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Presumeably that's the end of LIBOR as a globally accepted benchmark for interest rates then.....
> 
> Are we going to discover next that there has been a long term fiddling of Greenwich Mean Time over the years and this is really 2020 ?


Back to the 'futures'....

......coat!


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## xes (Jul 4, 2012)

Whats the betting that this is going to be fucking agonisingly frustrating to watch. Just seeing the wriggling on the news from politicians and bankers has made me want to eat the fucking walls. I wont watch live, but its going to impossible to avoid. Thank higgs for weed


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Thanks LD - you're helping me clarify my thoughts on this. What I want isn't the enquiry then, but rather the content of the relationships which such an enquiry could expose (the e-mails, meetings, texts and all the rest); this content then becomes available as ammunition in a bigger contest over systematic failures (explanations for and solutions to).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
Seconded. Really helpful stuff from LD.


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

he's on now, and within a matter of minutes is giving it the 'bad apple' approach - 'just a few reprehensible actions from reprehensible individuals'

and then minutes later he's claiming it's an industry wide problem!

not much of a contradiction there - he's tieing himself in knots to do anything which gets Barclays as a company of the hook, i.e. either was a problem with just a few individuals within Barclays or it was an industry wide problem that barclays just had to go along with

what a tit


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## gabi (Jul 4, 2012)

This hearing needs a bit of Jay methinks... this chairman's useless


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## Lock&Light (Jul 4, 2012)

gabi said:


> This hearing needs a bit of Jay methinks... this chairman's useless


 
Are there any decent interrogators among the committee members?


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

diamond just claimed that after the tucker call barclays were still reporting higher LIBOR rates than the rest of the market - which is a direct contradiction of the FT graph above - yet the chairman just let it go and didn't follow it up, that should have been the killer moment and he didn't even see it


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## gabi (Jul 4, 2012)

there's something wrong with this



> *1440:* *Robin Brant Political Correspondent, BBC News *
> All very friendly between Bob Diamond and Tory MP Jessie Norman, who have brief exchange, with wry smiles, about the time they both worked for Barclays subsidiary BZW.


 
surely a conflict of interests


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## Nylock (Jul 4, 2012)

gosub said:


> Is that mr diamond , mr goodwin et al in the foreground?


Yep, they've chipped-off on the lifeboats leaving the rest of us to go down with the ship/swim for our lives....


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## gosub (Jul 4, 2012)

gabi said:


> there's something wrong with this
> 
> 
> 
> surely a conflict of interests


he announced it before he asked questions


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## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2012)

gosub said:
			
		

> he announced it before he asked questions


He shouldn't be asking questions. Declaring an interest is usually followed by withdrawal from proceedings.


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2012)

Diamond is pretty crap, but he's still a far better politician than anyone on that committee - shades of tony blair in his style/approach to 'answering' questions


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 4, 2012)

heh


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## ska invita (Jul 4, 2012)

yield said:


> Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world
> newscientist 24 October 2011
> 
> When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a "super-entity" of 147 even more tightly knit companies - all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity - that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. "In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network," says Glattfelder. Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group.


thanks a lot for that link...really interesting. Never mind the imagined worlds of Illuminati etc, great to see the networks of power somewhat out in the open.

its got me thinking, in late capitalism as ever larger monopolies, oligopolies (a monopoly split between a small group of players i think) and global conglomerates etc. emerge the theory of choice through the market really falls apart. It may be true in a smaller scale, but once capital comes to its logical conclusion over time, with buy outs and buy ins, you get a picture like the one in that link.

If you compare to the one party state capitalism of 20th century Communism, the systematic differences become a lot smaller, even more so when you throw in technocrat governments, not to mention elected 'managerial' governments. Its hard to imagine if the market can get any more consolidated than it already is...

reminded of this just now










and then of course the major shareholders of one 'parent' company may often be the same as of others and so on.

Not sure what the ultimate implications of this kind of consolidation are...

anyhow, derail aside more clear analysis of whats going on from paul mason again today. Includes http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18714083



> If these were looters, or armed robbers, the police would simply put them all in separate rooms and quiz them until they found evidence of who actually committed the offence.
> In Britain, Tucker is allowed to avoid public questioning, ditto del Missier, and the trader in New York who complained about what he was being asked to do cannot be named.
> And Diamond is quizzed by a committee of MPs who cannot seem to ask the question direct; and under the circumstances when they do, Diamond is not forced to answer.
> We actually do have a financial police force: not just the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) but the FSA acting in its capacity as regulator. The stunning thing is that the FSA cannot seem to answer any of the questions. Its own report doesn't get to the bottom of where the instructions came from:
> ...



i bet they all get away with it in the end...


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## gosub (Jul 5, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18718560 might make more sense if Libor wasn't flat lining and banks being spoon fed money through QE. If they hadn't decapited then can see reason for downgrade (BofE boots them out of top tier). As it is still came think they will be pirana-ed by damages litigation .


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## hipipol (Jul 5, 2012)

Such a pity the Whermacht aint about to march into Canary Wharf
When the Nazi's had taken over Paris, the first day the Getapo office was open reps from Barclays and Chase Bank (Forerunner of JP Moragn Cahse) turned up with a list of all their Jewish employees - even the Gestapo were  bystunned this keen and organised atittude
I sjust one or two of em had their bollocks crushed outside the Wharfs huge Waitrose and were then shot, the rest might open up a bit
As for Bobby boy, slick and reptilian
Maybe Ickes right


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## love detective (Jul 5, 2012)

fuck knows why the two of you can't speak in a language that makes sense


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## elbows (Jul 6, 2012)




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## two sheds (Jul 6, 2012)

elbows said:


>


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## DexterTCN (Jul 23, 2012)

Tony Blair has become involved.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...096/Tony-Blair-hanging-bankers-wont-help.html



> Mr Blair cautions against letting that anger lead to regulations that could reverse Lady Thatcher’s work to reduce government involvement in free markets.


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## teqniq (Jul 23, 2012)

Blair can fuck the fuck off.


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## teqniq (Jul 24, 2012)

http://www.arrestblair.org/


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