# Brixton Rec - demolition proposed by council



## indigolove (Oct 1, 2012)

Wondered whether many people had heard that the Council are considering pulling down the Brixton Rec.  I spoke to members of the staff there and they knew nothing about it until the story appeared in the Brixton Bugle on Friday 28th September. "Residents had until Monday September 24 to comment on the plans on a shared online document and in workshops, though the council has been criticised for failing to publicise meetings adequately." *Nobody I have spoken to was aware of the plans or the deadline! Here is a link for further information  *www.brixtonblog.com/brixton-recreation-centre-could-be-demolished-under-council-plans/7041


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## pogofish (Oct 1, 2012)

Yes, its currently being discussed on *two threads* in the *Brixton Forum!*


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## claphamboy (Oct 1, 2012)

indigolove, welcome, you have just been busted on your first post my our resident Pogo-Police enforcement officer, this is commonly known as having being 'pogoed'.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 1, 2012)

thanks for posting it up though indigolove - a few of us commented on the original consultation document and are following progress - but the more awareness the better afaic!


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## Badgers (Oct 1, 2012)

I kinda think this deserves it's own thread. I know that there are a couple of threads discussing Brixton in general where this has come up, but the Rec is a pretty big deal to a lot of people.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 1, 2012)

Badgers said:


> I kinda think this deserves it's own thread. I know that there are a couple of threads discussing Brixton in general where this has come up, but the Rec is a pretty big deal to a lot of people.


 
I agree... maybe if we ask a mod - this thread here could be moved to the Brixton Forum and the posts from the other threads (in particular Gramsci's) could be commuted across?


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## gaijingirl (Oct 1, 2012)

is there some sort of "dial-a-mod" button or do we need to message them individually?


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## Badgers (Oct 1, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> is there some sort of "dial-a-mod" button or do we need to message them individually?


 
Someone will be along soon to move it. Probably needs a more detailed title too.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 1, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Someone will be along soon to move it. Probably needs a more detailed title too.


 
brilliant.


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## indigolove (Oct 1, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> thanks for posting it up though indigolove - a few of us commented on the original consultation document and are following progress - but the more awareness the better afaic!


Thank you this is the most helpful reply - i should like to hear how matters develop and get actively involved when the time is right


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## editor (Oct 1, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> I agree... maybe if we ask a mod - this thread here could be moved to the Brixton Forum and the posts from the other threads (in particular Gramsci's) could be commuted across?


I don't think we can move individual posts from thread to thread but I can move then to a new forum and then perhaps merge with this thread. If someone could post up the URLs of the other posts I'll have a bash later.


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## Badgers (Oct 1, 2012)

Cheers Ed.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 1, 2012)

I think the main ones of interest are in this thread:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/council-consults-on-vision-for-future-of-brixton.293043/


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2012)

The council would like to demolish the Rec so they can build new retail units and private accommodation on the site in order to make some cash. The ideas were outlined in the draft Supplementary Planning Document which was open for comment until last week. There will be a formal consultation of residents later in the Autumn/winter.

The Rec isn't perfect, but it's there and it works. Building a new one would takes years and cost £millions. The council claim the building is not fit for purpose. They also claim (based on dodgy 'informal consultation' - i.e. probably just the comments of a few people) that the entry ramp is dark and unwelcoming and that this in itself is a reason for getting rid and rebuilding.

More details of the wider plans are here on the "Future Brixton" page
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/Environment/Regeneration/FutureLambeth/FutureBrixton.htm

If you want to retain the Rec as it is, look out for the consultation later in the Autumn/winter and make sure you respond to it.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 1, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The Rec isn't perfect, but it's there and it works. Building a new one would takes years and cost £millions. The council claim the building is not fit for purpose. They also claim (based on dodgy 'informal consultation' - i.e. probably just the comments of a few people) that the entry ramp is dark and unwelcoming and that this in itself is a reason for getting rid and rebuilding.


 
This seems to be the comment of one person....   I went up Friday and all the lights are working on the ramp.  They could just whitewash it if they need it brighter - or do some more mural work.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> This seems to be the comment of one person....  I went up Friday and all the lights are working on the ramp. They could just whitewash it if they need it brighter - or do some more mural work.


Exactly - as someone said on the other thread, it would be better to spend a few £thousands on improving the entrance, rather than using that as a justification to knock the whole place down and start again. But LBL seem to want to become property developers and sell off most of central Brixton....


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

From Twitter today: 



> *Lambeth Council* ‏@*lambeth_council*
> #*Lambeth* wants better leisure facilities in *#**Brixton* and will work with community on how to do this. Improving not closing leisure services!


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

Love the vagueness of "Improving not closing leisure services!"


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## lefteri (Oct 2, 2012)

can someone tell me what is likely to be the most expedient, effective & legal thing to do in opposition to this proposal please?


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 2, 2012)

lefteri said:


> can someone tell me what is likely to be the most expedient, effective & legal thing to do in opposition to this proposal please?


There will be a formal public consultation on the Supplementary Planning Document later this autumn/winter - put your objections in during that process, and help support a campaign to keep the Rec open - tell your family, friends, neighbours etc to object as well.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2012)

Badgers said:


> From Twitter today:


 
see I'd love to believe this, but I used to swim at Streatham pool, which when it was shut was also supposed to be replaced with an improved version.  Instead there is no pool at all.  I think it was mixed up in that whole Tesco/Streatham/Ice Rink disaster.  So I don't have a great deal of faith. 

FWIW, I think they would reopen it elsewhere, it really would be political suicide to simply close the whole centre down - but I bet prices will be higher and services more limited and one way or another we'd get screwed.


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## lefteri (Oct 2, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> FWIW, I think they would reopen it elsewhere, it really would be political suicide to simply close the whole centre down - but I bet prices will be higher and services more limited and one way or another we'd get screwed.


 
and a huge perfectly functional building with tonnes of embodied energy would be ripped down mainly to hardcore rubble - would westminster do this to tate britain in pimlico?


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

indigolove said:


> Wondered whether many people had heard that the Council are considering pulling down the Brixton Rec. I spoke to members of the staff there and they knew nothing about it until the story appeared in the Brixton Bugle on Friday 28th September. "Residents had until Monday September 24 to comment on the plans on a shared online document and in workshops, though the council has been criticised for failing to publicise meetings adequately." *Nobody I have spoken to was aware of the plans or the deadline! Here is a link for further information *www.brixtonblog.com/brixton-recreation-centre-could-be-demolished-under-council-plans/7041


 
It was up on Urban first before Brixon Blog.

I , as people noted, posted up on the meeting I attended about SPD where it was discussed. I think I might cut and paste my post on the SPD thread to here.


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2012)

I recently went to the new improved Clapham pool/leisure centre and found that I didn't feel that the facilities had been improved that much except being a bit newer and more shiny. However as a parent, I had some big complaint about the ONE family change unit:

http://littlelambeth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/taking-baby-for-swim-part-2-clapham.html

Brixton isn't perfect but it has decent family change facilities, baby change toilets and you can put fold up buggies in a locker!

Also Brixton rec has a really cool soft play areas for small kids. It has a couple storey structure with slides and ropes and ball pools. All for £2.70. Open all week - amazing! They wouldn't replace something like that.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2012)

Exactly..... I also use Brixton over Clapham - only went there once with the family and was not impressed really. The new family changing at the Rec is actually very good - the best out in the area and we've pretty much tried them all.

And the soft play is actually even cheaper if you buy a card which lasts forever for your child (I bought ours 2 years ago now - but I think it was £3) and the soft play is just over £2 with it. It only went up from £1.60 this year. If you go to Bromley leisure centre soft plays it's over £5 and any of the gambado type places are that price also. It's also a great place to meet other mums and because of the way it's built it's less stressful than some of the enormous soft play places.  Quite a lot of parents hold little informal b'day parties for their kids there with a picnic in the cafe area or small table just outside.  It makes it affordable.  Also it's rented out at weekends for larger parties.

Added to that the creche is good - I've been using that for the last 2 years now also, just got my 2nd child in there too. It used to be free - they charge now but it's still a good facility. When the playworkers get to know your child there they are very very welcoming. I just took my eldest back after a 4 month break after the birth of our 2nd child and they were really pleased to see her again.

As well as soft play there's a zone for older kids aged 5 up (although I've not used that yet).

Will all that stay - or will it be a "changing village" a la Clapham? With a much smaller pool, very narrow lanes etc etc. Or worse - like East Dulwich with just one pool - no separate kids/teaching pool?

Pre-kids I made some great friends from all walks of life at the squash social, enjoyed the gym/classes. It is somewhere that has been good to me throughout the various phases of my life in Brixton.

It isn't perfect but it serves its purpose well and I really can't imagine that being recreated elsewhere.


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2012)

http://www.utopialondon.com/brixton-rec

Bit about the design


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2012)

interesting site that... don't want to derail but I liked this from the Lambeth Towers link:

*Drawing: Artist's impression of flat interior © George Finch*







There's actually lots I like about the Rec in terms of its layout - in particular compared to the newer pools/centres that are opening up.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

I went to the Future Brixton meeting on the SPDs on the 18th September.

There still is time to put comments on the Council "Draft Brixton SPD- work in progress". This document has been added to by the Council giving it more detail.

There is only until next Monday to add comments to the Google Doc.

That however is not the end of the consultation. The timetable is:

Draft SPD to be agreed by Cabinet in December
Formal Statutory consultation starts January 2013
Responses to statutory consultation considered February
Cabinet approves and adopts SPD in spring 2013

The main issues that came up at meeting:

The Rec--- The Cllr and officers present were discussing knocking down the Rec and replacing it somewhere else. This was also in the Draft SPD (see above). So the Council is seriously thinking about this. There are two issues. Whether the replacement of Rec should be stated in the finished SPD or not. And should the Rec should be kept and maintained/ refurbished.

I am very wary of agreeing to knocking down of Rec. The Council view is that it is very expensive to maintain and is not a feasible building to retain in the long term . The idea is that the land could be sold to developer and part of the agreement is that the developer builds new Rec. Bit like the Streatham Ice Rink scheme.

The Rec is large. I do not believe a replacement would be as big and have the same range of facilities. The Rec is not that old.

A point was raised at meeting that the SPD should be specific. So if the Council want to replace Rec this should be clear. If SPD is vague or gives different options it could be weakened. The SPD is a legal planning document. Developers, not for profit groups and Council will all refer to it to justify what they do in the area. If its vague, the argument went, developers will use it to wriggle out of any commitments.
​​The section from the other thread on the SPDs​​


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> This seems to be the comment of one person....  I went up Friday and all the lights are working on the ramp. They could just whitewash it if they need it brighter - or do some more mural work.


 
I went past last weekend and looked at the lighting. Half the lights on the entrance stairs were not working. So no wonder it looked dark and uninviting. Simple maintenance can overcome some problems that people consulted complained about.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

I have looked up the old Masterplan. This was agreed by Cabinet but does not have planning weight. That is what SPDs are for. . So this is change from Masterplan. Page 108 section called "Brixton Section Road" 5.1.10 says under heading "Brixton Rec":

"The Rec will be refurbished and opened up as a major community resource, incorporating retail, leisure facilities and social infrastructure. The potential to open up the frontage of the Rec is being reviewed, including the implementation of ground level access and new signage along Brixton Station Road. The Masterplan recognises further potential to review the blind eastern frontage of the building. The potential to better and more appropriately enclose the service yards, currently contained by palisaded gates and open gates and open security fencing to the northern end of the street, will also be reviewed."

You will see that the last time the Rec was under threat was when the Tory/LD ran the Council. Then the Labour Group vigorously opposed the possible demolition of "much loved Rec" as I remember a Labour Cllr saying at the time.
Dug up old minutes of meeting where Labour Council is praising itself for saving Rec after it had come back to power. See here:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgAi.aspx?ID=3867
from minutes 30th January 2008

"Council believes that the borough’s leisure centres are valued by the local community and are vital resource to help local people improve their health and wellbeing.

We welcome this Council’s investment in its leisure centres and in the borough’s sport development.

The Council welcomes the appointment of Greenwich Leisure Service as Lambeth’s borough leisure provider as a social enterprise company committed to employing local people.

We further welcome Greenwich’s approach to working in partnership with the Council. Greenwich is actively involved in Lambeth’s recently formed Sports Physical Activity Network Board, and it works with key local partners such as Fulham Football Club.

This Council welcomes the establishment of user forums at leisure centres across the borough to pick up on complaints. 

Council notes that, contrary to the scare mongering around prices, Lambeth prices are in keeping with leisure centres across London.

Council further criticises the inaccurate statistics used by the opposition as a mismatch of membership and visitor numbers, and in some instances a comparison between months when a leisure centre was open and when shut for major repairs.

This Council welcomes the £3.6 million investment in Brixton Rec and Council congratulates all those involved in its improvements. It now offers one of the best children’s facilities in the country. It has a new and greatly improved gym for adults, an improved sports hall, and better changing facilities. The reception area has been redesigned and now offers a welcome entrance to the Rec.
​​These plans contrast vividly with the previous Lib Dem/Tory administration’s vision for leisure within the borough. Council notes with dismay that the previous administration was planning to:
- bulldoze Brixton Rec and replace it with a centre half the size on a disused railway siding outside the town centre"

Actually one officer at a recent meeting did mention Somerleyton road again as site for new replacement Rec. That was the site that the Tory/LD were looking.
Officers are saying at the stalls they had in market people were complaining about aspects of Rec. But I did not see the stalls the Council set up. I do not know what kind of questions were asked. Officers are good at asking leading questions when it suits them.
But officers/ Labour Cllrs are liable to say that they have consulted people and this is what they have found. That the Rec is unfriendly building not fit for purpose.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

full doc here from page 27 ( as last link did not seem to work)

• Brixton Recreation Centre: The current facility is much loved,
enormously popular and serves the entire Borough and beyond. However,
many residents think it is inaccessible because current access arrangements
require the use of an exterior flight of stairs or a long ramp which is dark
and not particularly welcoming. The building is large although much of the
interior space is not efficiently used.
The building is in need of significant levels of ongoing investment and
running costs are forecast to continue to rise significantly. If a decision is
taken to work towards securing a new replacement facility, the temporary
ice rink site may be an appropriate location. If this was the case, the
release of the existing site would present an opportunity to attract new retail-
led investment to this prominent town centre location. The ground floor
provides flexibility for a range of retail uses, with the most appropriate mix
likely to involve a limited amount of new food retail floorspace together with
comparison floorspace to complement the existing pattern of high street and
independent trading in the town. The site presents a major opportunity for
high density mixed residential development on upper floors which takes
account of the exceptional public transport accessibility of the site. Should
a suitable user come forward, the site would also be appropriate for other
town centre/community/education uses. If the site is redeveloped,
advantage should be taken of the existing basement accommodation as this
provides potential for the incorporation of basement parking.​


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## quimcunx (Oct 2, 2012)

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesco had its beady little eye on that space and in return would build a shit new rec somewhere away from the centre.  Then renege on the deal anyway.


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2012)

New food retail floorspace? Do we need any more eating opportunities in the area?  Will this be when we get all bar one, strada, Pizza Express, Burger king and all the other chains?


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## Ol Nick (Oct 2, 2012)

The Rec's not perfect, but I'm assuming the people who don't like it have seen other leisure centres. They are rarely place of charm and/or efficiency.


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## nagapie (Oct 2, 2012)

I can't believe they  have the gall to propose this with Streatham still unbuilt.


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## Greebo (Oct 2, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I can't believe they have the gall to propose this with Streatham still unbuilt.


Quite.  Lambeth Council seems to have a habit of starting expensive improvement/rebuilding/regeneration projects and then running out of steam.


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## potential (Oct 2, 2012)

its an eysore,  its very very  expensive to run.     was  badly designed in the  1st place.

theres  a  need  for  it,   but  a what cost.     why  on earth  would you build a swimming pool  on the  3rd  floor


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## Greebo (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> its an eysore, its very very expensive to run. was badly designed in the 1st place.
> 
> theres a need for it, but a what cost. why on earth would you build a swimming pool on the 3rd floor


Not enough reason to even think about starting work on it when it was only recently refurbished and the nearest alternative public swimming pool (Streatham) won't be available for at least another year.


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> its an eysore, its very very expensive to run. was badly designed in the 1st place.
> 
> theres a need for it, but a what cost. why on earth would you build a swimming pool on the 3rd floor


 
Do you use it much?

Can you recommend an alternative local to the area?


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## potential (Oct 2, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Do you use it much?
> 
> Can you recommend an alternative local to the area?


i used to go,    but   was  a victim of a mugging on the  walkway  from the  car park,  so   dont go any more,   there  is  no alternative in the  area,exept  for  fitness 1st... or they  could  stick  a roof  on  brockwell  pk  lido


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## Greebo (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> i used to go, but was a victim of a mugging on the walkway from the car park, so dont go any more, there is no alternative in the area,exept for fitness 1st... or they could stick a roof on brockwell pk lido


FYI the lido is listed, so bunging a roof of it is highly unlikely to ever happen.


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## potential (Oct 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> FYI the lido is listed, so bunging a roof of it is highly unlikely to ever happen.


thats a shame,   putting a roof on  the lido would  be  a good  thing.


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## Greebo (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> thats a shame, putting a roof on the lido would be a good thing.


And he wonders why he was mugged


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> i used to go, but was a victim of a mugging on the walkway from the car park, so dont go any more, there is no alternative in the area,exept for fitness 1st... or they could stick a roof on brockwell pk lido


 
Well the walkways could do with a bit of sorting however this is not a reason for the whole site to be demolished. Have you seen what they did to the Clapham Swimming pool?? It's shininess distracts you from the fact it is a little useless.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> thats a shame, putting a roof on the lido would be a good thing.


 
this is a joke right?


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## potential (Oct 2, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Well the walkways could do with a bit of sorting however this is not a reason for the whole site to be demolished. Have you seen what they did to the Clapham Swimming pool?? It's shininess distracts you from the fact it is a little useless.


 and  ugly  the  clapham manor  street  site  was    great,     thats  gone  thou


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> and ugly the clapham manor street site was great, thats gone thou


 
So go gently about wanting the Rec to be gone. We could find ourselves lumbered with something smaller, that offers less services and ends up being considered worse than the rec.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> its an eysore, its very very expensive to run. was badly designed in the 1st place.
> 
> theres a need for it, but a what cost. why on earth would you build a swimming pool on the 3rd floor


 
The new "suits" who are going to live in Brixton Square wont like it. Oh no. They will want new shiny one with high membership costs to keep out the riff raff.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2012)

potential said:


> thats a shame, putting a roof on the lido would be a good thing.


 
That is a joke?


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 3, 2012)

potential said:


> thats a shame, putting a roof on the lido would be a good thing.


Hmmmm, poster doesn't come on to Urban75 for two and a half years, then suddenly returns yesterday to make loads of posts trolling the fuck out of the Brixton forum.....


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## gaijingirl (Oct 3, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I went past last weekend and looked at the lighting. Half the lights on the entrance stairs were not working. So no wonder it looked dark and uninviting. Simple maintenance can overcome some problems that people consulted complained about.


 
So I was there again today and looked again.... I think you were looking at the stairs and I at the ramp.  On the ramp there are overhead lights that have clearly been out of action for a long time, but there are very bright, wall mounted lights which work well.  There is also a CCTV camera at the bottom of the ramp.  At the top landing by the entrance and down to the steps they are relying on the overhead lights, some of which are broken as you mention - but of course it is also open to the light from the sky to a certain extent.  It's not the bright white glare of Clapham pools or similar but I think it's adequate and could very easily be spruced up.

It's a bollocks excuse anyway to tear down an entire building!


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## Onket (Oct 4, 2012)

Greebo said:


> And he wonders why he was mugged


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## Manter (Oct 4, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Exactly - as someone said on the other thread, it would be better to spend a few £thousands on improving the entrance, rather than using that as a justification to knock the whole place down and start again. But LBL seem to want to become property developers and sell off most of central Brixton....


 Seriously, is someone on the council getting backhanders?  Building private flats and retail units seems to be their knee jerk reaction to damn near EVERYTHING


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## Greebo (Oct 4, 2012)

Manter said:


> Seriously, is someone on the council getting backhanders? Building private flats and retail units seems to be their knee jerk reaction to damn near EVERYTHING


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## eroom (Oct 5, 2012)

I was talking to my Dad about the Rec recently. He was a London borough architect in the 70s and 80s and did a lot of leisure facilities. He claims he once got a job, shortly after the Rec was completed, by answering the question 'what are your design principles' with the response 'never build a swimming pool upstairs'.

Less facetiously he actually reckons the Rec is a pretty good building, but very badly used - and could be hugely improved for next to nothing.


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## nagapie (Oct 13, 2012)

Just received this email:

Dear Brixton Rec Users,

*Lambeth Council is considering another Brixton Town Centre regeneration plan that includes demolishing the Rec.* 
I attach the relevant sections, some commentary from Veronica Ball, and names of Councillors and their email addresses.
The crucial councillor is Lib Peck, Executive member for regeneration (and was for leisure at the time of the 6 month closure of the Rec, so well versed in it and the opposiation that closure generated). The crucial first Council meeting is that of the Executive Committee on 6 November. 
The old BRUG committee of 4 is meeting Monday 9am at the Rec cafe to discuss a plan of campaign. The first thing we must do is extend the committee and publicise the plan, askiing everyone to raise objections with Peck. Anyone else is more than welcome to attend.
Emma Calder has set up a Facebook site on which everyone will be able to view and comment on the plans and campaign. We will circulate further info about this ,
*Meantime please FORWARD THIS EMAIL AND INFORMATION TO EVERY USER YOU HAVE CONTACT WITH.*

BRUG has had to use an old contact list. Apologies if you no longer use the Rec or are not interested. Please let me know so that I can clean up the lists. Also apologies if you receive it twice for similar reasons 
Robyn Dasey
BRUG Secretary.


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## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2012)

nagapie said:


> Just received this email:
> 
> Dear Brixton Rec Users,
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for this info.

What is the name of the Facebook site? I searched but could not find anything.

Can you put up some of the "relevant sections" and commentary?

Could u email them back with a link to this thread. So they could put up info here?


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## nagapie (Oct 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks for this info.
> 
> What is the name of the Facebook site? I searched but could not find anything.
> 
> ...


 
I'll email them the link. I'm not on Facearse so can't do anything connected to that.


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## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I'll email them the link. I'm not on Facearse so can't do anything connected to that.


 
I am but I am also on Diaspora as well.

Not on FB. How do you get by without it?


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## nagapie (Oct 14, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Not on FB. How do you get by without it?


 
Never been on so don't know what I'm missing. Am also allergic to old school 'friends' trying to chat to me. Every time I think I'll join, someone gives me a reason not to. And I already waste enough time here.


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## Greebo (Oct 14, 2012)

nagapie said:


> Never been on so don't know what I'm missing. Am also allergic to old school 'friends' trying to chat to me. Every time I think I'll join, someone gives me a reason not to. And I already waste enough time here.


I know what you mean, if you haven't seen somebody since school, there's probably a good reason for it.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 21, 2012)

BRUG have put up posters in the Rec with regards to this issue.

The Facebook group is here:

https://www.facebook.com/brixtonrecusersgroup


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## gaijingirl (Oct 21, 2012)

The posters and FB (for those who don't indulge) say the following:


WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO HAVE OUR SAY IN THE FUTURE OF BRIXTON REC?

Email and visit your Councillors to make your views known. 

Crucial dates to contact them by are:

6th November all Labour councillors Labour Group meeting;
30 November for the Cabinet meeting. Councillor Lib Peck is the Cabinet member for regeneration and the critical person to contact. 

BRUG will also be contacting Councillor Peck.

Act now. Do not wait for the formal consultation scheduled for January 7 - February 18.

Cabinet Member Councillors

Leader of the Council Steve Reed
020 7926 1167 sreed@lambeth.gov.uk

Deputy Leader of the Council -Jackie Meldrum
020 7926 1167 jmeldrum@lambeth.gov.uk

Regeneration and Strategic Housing - Lib Peck
07946 218 638 lpeck@lambeth.gov.uk

Children and Families - Rachel Heywood
020 7733 7300 rheywood@lambeth.gov.uk

Culture, Leisure and the Olympics Sally Prentice
020 7587 0160 SPrentice@lambeth.gov.uk

Finance and Resources - Paul McGlone
020 8674 3250 pmcglone@lambeth.gov.uk

Health and Wellbeing - Jim Dickson
020 3149 6657 jdickson@lambeth.gov.uk
Neighbourhood Services Pete Robbins
07946 218 389 probbins@lambeth.gov.uk

Public Protection - Jack Hopkins
020 7091 9010 jhopkins@lambeth.gov.uk

Labour Councillors by Ward

Brixton Hill
Alexander Holland, Florence Nosegbe, Steve Reed
Clapham Town
Nigel Haselden, Helen O'Malley, Christopher Wellbelove
Coldharbour Ward (includes Brixton Town Centre)
Donatus Anyanwu , Rachel Heywood, ,Matt Parr
Ferndale Ward
Paul McGlone, Sally Prentice, Neil Sabharwal
Gipsy Hill
Matthew Bennett, Jennifer Brathwaite, Niranjan Francis.
Herne Hill Ward
Carol Boucher, Jim Dickson, Leanne Targett-Parker
Knight’s Hill
Jackie Meldrum, Jane Pickard, Mike Smith.
Larkhall
Dr Neeraj Patil, Pete Robbins, Christiana Valcarcel.
Oval
Jane Edbrooke, Jack Hopkins
Princes Ward
Lorna Campbell, Mark Harrison, Stephen Morgan.
Stockwell
Alex Bigham , Peter Bowyer, Imogen Walker.
Streatham South
Mark Bennett, John Kazantzis, David Malley.
Thornton
Edward Davie, Diana Morris, Lib Peck.
Thurlow Park
Ann Kingsbury
Tulse Hill
Adedamola Aminu, Marcia Cameron, Ruth Ling
Vassal Ward
Kingsley Abrams, Adrian Garden

emails for all are initialname@lambeth.gov.uk except Mike Smith , msmith10@lambeth.gov.uk

Brixton Rec User Group (BRUG)
recusergroup@btinternet.com
www.facebook.com/brixtonrecusergroup
*http://www.facebook.com/brixtonrecusergroup*
www.facebook.com


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## Gramsci (Oct 22, 2012)

Thanks for putting this up. Was just about to. Saw it in Rec today.


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## Gramsci (Oct 22, 2012)

The BRUG notice board in Rec also had this quote. Which I posted up previously in #84 of "Council consults on vision for future of Brixton" thread. 
​full doc here from page 27 ( as last link did not seem to work)​​​


> • Brixton Recreation Centre: The current facility is much loved,​enormously popular and serves the entire Borough and beyond. However,​many residents think it is inaccessible because current access arrangements​require the use of an exterior flight of stairs or a long ramp which is dark​and not particularly welcoming. The building is large although much of the​interior space is not efficiently used.​The building is in need of significant levels of ongoing investment and​running costs are forecast to continue to rise significantly. If a decision is​taken to work towards securing a new replacement facility, the temporary​ice rink site may be an appropriate location. If this was the case, the​release of the existing site would present an opportunity to attract new retail-​led investment to this prominent town centre location. The ground floor​provides flexibility for a range of retail uses, with the most appropriate mix​likely to involve a limited amount of new food retail floorspace together with​comparison floorspace to complement the existing pattern of high street and​independent trading in the town. The site presents a major opportunity for​high density mixed residential development on upper floors which takes​account of the exceptional public transport accessibility of the site. Should​a suitable user come forward, the site would also be appropriate for other​town centre/community/education uses. If the site is redeveloped,​advantage should be taken of the existing basement accommodation as this​provides potential for the incorporation of basement parking.​


​​


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## Gramsci (Oct 22, 2012)

Ive posted up on the BRUG FB page a link to Urban. 

Its good that BRUG have taken this up.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 28, 2012)

BRUG are having a meeting at the Rec at 6pm on Monday 29 October to discuss the closure threat - it's in the Rec Social Room on Level 6.


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## leanderman (Oct 28, 2012)

It's true about the ramp.

You go up there and feel like you are meeting Deep Throat in All the President's Men


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## quimcunx (Oct 28, 2012)

So from Tesco are going to keep an icerink at Streatham as promised to oh no, actually they're not.
From the Popes Road car park needs a few repairs to not fit for purpose.
From car park for market users to temporary ice rink from Tesco
From Brixton Rec being upgraded and serving the community but with a badly lit ramp to let's knock it down
From well there's not really enough room for Tesco to put a big one so close to the market, the icerink area is not that big to ooh lets make the rec retail space. 

Of course building a whole new Rec would be expensive for a council being forced to make cuts, and investment would have to be found. Perhaps a corporate entity could be found who would be willing.


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## MAD-T-REX (Oct 29, 2012)

The Rec is badly designed inside (I hate how much space is wasted by the chasm in the middle of it), but I can't see any refurb leading to more space for its users. Retail will get the lower floors and everything else will be squeezed upwards.

I think I'll just go to Flaxman more often and never think about it again.


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## nagapie (Oct 29, 2012)

I have just written to all my councillors and my MP and Liz Peck. If they start taking community resources like the Rec, I may as well go live in the suburbs.


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## leanderman (Oct 29, 2012)

Damarr said:


> The Rec is badly designed inside (I hate how much space is wasted by the chasm in the middle of it), but I can't see any refurb leading to more space for its users. Retail will get the lower floors and everything else will be squeezed upwards.
> 
> I think I'll just go to Flaxman more often and never think about it again.


 
Despite the poor design, there is quite enough space.

It just seems crazy to knock down a new-ish building.


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## Gramsci (Oct 29, 2012)

*Brixton Recreation Centre User Group (BRUG) meeting on 29/ 10 /2012*


This was well attended meeting with a cross section of the local community.

The BRUG has been reformed to deal with the latest threat to the Rec. The possible idea from officers/ Council that the rec may be demolished and replaced with a new one nearby. The land to be sold to a developer with a planning gain agreement to build a new Rec. Basically going over what has been discussed on Urban75 and Brixton Blog.

Four of the original members of BRUG had organised the meeting. The introduction was about the SPD consultation.

The chair of meeting asked people for there comments on how the Rec could be improved and what they felt about the Rec.

Following are some of the individual comments from the floor:

It is a large space that is underutilized. With the government cuts there are groups that are losing there space and could use it. It could be used as valuable resource for local community groups.

The maintenance issues are due to poor contractors.

There could be greater usage for other sports like martial arts.

The energy usage of Rec was not a key issue as it is now not to bad in energy efficiency.

There could be better use of the space in Rec. For example using the front ground floor area by windows as cafe.(at moment the creche) This could be used by non users of Rec.

The Rec unlike other centres is not a cramped space. This makes more hospitable. So the fact that it is large is good factor.

A nursery could use some of Rec for non rec users as well as rec users. There are nurseries looking for space.

The BRUG had suggested to Council a design competition to remodel the Rec.

Leaflets could be made to give out to other users. As its important to reach as many people as possible.

The 20c society had come to look at building. They are interested but this is in early stage.

One person said he had lived in Brixton for 40 years. That the rec means a lot to Black people in Brixton.

The Brixton Rec is a model for how people get along from different races. It crossed "all lines".

Nelson Mandela came to visit Rec. So the Rec has an important place in Brixton for the Afro Caribbean community.

The Rec is also used by a lot of families and children.

Get hold of Officer advice to Cllrs on state of Rec. This would be difficult and time consuming to use FOI.


Summary of Action to be taken


Media: Facebook page setup / Brixton Blog have done article / Urban75 have thread on this

There was discussion about leaflets and yahoo group. BRUG asked people to give there emails so stuff could be sent to them.

The most important thing people could do now is to email there local Cllrs about Rec. Include personal reasons for using the Rec as well. To show the variety of ways it is used. Also say what the rec means to you.

Also the BRUG asked for volunteers to join BRUG committee.

*The next important date is November 6th. There is a Labour Group meeting. This is closed to public but the issue of SPDs and Rec will come up. *

*So its important to email Cllrs before then.*

Details of how to do this in Gaijinging post #63

It was asked if one could put in email yo Cllrs that one attended this BRUG meeting and that the feeling of the meeting was the the Brixton Rec should be kept. That it should be written into the SPDs that the Rec be kept. (As the original Brixton Masterplan states). Meeting agreed this was ok.

Also it was asked that people email, use there social networks and talk to Rec users to tell them about this.

This issue need to be nipped in the bud now rather than trying to later.


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## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2012)

I have just emailed my ward Cllrs.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 30, 2012)

will email today.  I hope that the suggestion to put a cafe where the creche is also recognised how important the creche is - rather than suggesting getting rid!


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> *Brixton Recreation Centre User Group (BRUG) meeting on 29/ 10 /2012*


Thanks for going and doing a report Gramsci - I couldn't make it at the last minute. Will email councillors today. 

Is there someone in BRUG who's coordinating all this? Do they have an email/phone no. I could contact them with please? (PM if you want.....cheers.)

E2A: actually, just seen the contacts in gaijingirls email above!


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## gaijingirl (Oct 30, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Is there someone in BRUG who's coordinating all this? Do they have an email/phone no. I could contact them with please? (PM if you want.....cheers.)


 
actually... me too, I'd be happy to do some handing out of leaflets - I could give them out at soft play and outside the Rec when I go to the creche and swimming.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Oct 30, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> will email today.  I hope that the suggestion to put a cafe where the creche is also recognised how important the creche is - rather than suggesting getting rid!


It would be better to put a cafe by the Pope's Road bit, you know where the windows are as there's lots of passing people, would make better use of space and provide another, possibly more accessible, entrance.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Oct 30, 2012)

It should be said that the children's training pool can so be used for physiotherapy (I know I have used it for this in past) and the nearest heated pool is in Peckham (I think). It could do with being warmer actually but the point stands


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 30, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> The posters and FB (for those who don't indulge) say the following:
> 
> WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO HAVE OUR SAY IN THE FUTURE OF BRIXTON REC?
> 
> ...


Excellent post. It would be great if Urbanites who are so inclined would email their councillors as gaijingirl suggests. You could also email or Tweet your local MP - it only takes a few seconds:


Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) - hoeyk@parliament.uk
Chuka Ummuna (Streatham) - chuka.ummuna.mp@parliament.uk - https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna
Tessa Jowell (Dulwich & West Norwood) - jowellt@parliament.uk - http://twitter.com/jowellt 

If you're not sure who your MP is, click here and enter your postcode: http://findyourmp.parliament.uk


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## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> actually... me too, I'd be happy to do some handing out of leaflets - I could give them out at soft play and outside the Rec when I go to the creche and swimming.


 
If you email them and ask to go on there email list. Also say what what ways you could help.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 30, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> It would be better to put a cafe by the Pope's Road bit, you know where the windows are as there's lots of passing people, would make better use of space and provide another, possibly more accessible, entrance.


 
yes, that seems sensible.  I'm all for rearranging to make it work better - just don't want to lose the creche completely.  It would be nice for the creche to have windows but we also used to like to use the cafe there which never seems to be open any more - or rarely - it would be good to have one that's used more.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 31, 2012)

When I went to the Rec yesterday I noticed that one of the reasons the sloping ramp/walkway is so dark (which is stated as one of the main negative factors in the current Rec set up) is because the windows between the walkway and the indoor football pitch have been blacked out. All you need to do is remove the internal window coverings to allow some more light into the walkway. You could also paint the tiles white and improve the lighting - a fairly easy and relatively cheap thing to sort out.


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## boohoo (Oct 31, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> When I went to the Rec yesterday I noticed that one of the reasons the sloping ramp/walkway is so dark (which is stated as one of the main negative factors in the current Rec set up) is because the windows between the walkway and the indoor football pitch have been blacked out. All you need to do is remove the internal window coverings to allow some more light into the walkway. You could also paint the tiles white and improve the lighting - a fairly easy and relatively cheap thing to sort out.


 
Everytime I push the buggy up that way I think what a simple solution to the dark ramp problem.

As others have mentioned I don't think they use the Rec space to it's best advantage - it could make lots of money.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 31, 2012)

I emailed Jeremy Clyne yesterday and had a very interesting and informative reply this morning.  I also C+P Gramsci's notes from the BRUG meeting to send back to him as he had queried whether BRUG were still meeting.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 1, 2012)

I noticed that Lambeth's own customer survey of Brixton residents (on the wall at the Rec) shows that most users are very happy with the services provided. Apols for the lopsided pic....basically it shows only a tiny minority of people not satisfied. Will try to get a better pic.


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## leanderman (Nov 1, 2012)

Exactly. It just needs a few tweaks here and there, and paint, to lift the whole place.

If the original architect could be found - and then shot - that would have a salutary effect too.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 1, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. It just needs a few tweaks here and there, and paint, to lift the whole place.
> 
> If the original architect could be found - and then shot - that would have a salutary effect too.


This is the original architect George Finch talking about why he designed it in the way he did: https://vimeo.com/16415678(2 and half mins long)


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 1, 2012)

By the way there is a Twitter feed if you're into that sort of thing: @SaveBrixtonRec

https://twitter.com/SaveBrixtonRec


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## Elgar (Nov 1, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> This is the original architect George Finch talking about why he designed it in the way he did: https://vimeo. com/16415678(2 and half mins long)


He admits that he hasn't even been there since it was built.


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## leanderman (Nov 2, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> This is the original architect George Finch talking about why he designed it in the way he did: https://vimeo.com/16415678(2 and half mins long)




now seen video. an unconvincing defence!


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## Gramsci (Nov 2, 2012)

Found this. Excerpt from minutes of Council meeting 9th July 2008



> Council welcomes the Labour administration1s commitment to improve
> leisure facilities in Lambeth. Council welcomes this commitment as it
> promotes a healthy, active community as well as providing opportunities for
> positive activity. Council notes the chronic under funding of leisure facilities
> ...


 
The previous administration was the Tory/LD one. The Council is Labour run when this meeting was called.


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## quimcunx (Nov 2, 2012)

Any idea how current visitor numbers compare?


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## leanderman (Nov 3, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Found this. Excerpt from minutes of Council meeting 9th July 2008
> 
> 
> 
> The previous administration was the Tory/LD one. The Council is Labour run when this meeting was called.


 
hilarious! and even more absurd that councils 'welcome' and 'note' things.


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## nagapie (Nov 3, 2012)

My response from Ruth Ling. Doesn't exactly make me feel like saving the rec is her priority, full of a lot of council evasion speak while being quite aggressive. As usual I found the link to the consultation difficult to use, just seemed to go to Lambeth's shit website:

Dear 

Thank you for writing to me about this.

First of all, I should say that no decisions have been made about the Brixton Rec and any changes that are made will be done so only after consultation with the community and the full involvement of local people.

The speculation in the local press arose from the discussions the Council has been having with local people about a new planning document for the area, which will set out clearly what residents and the council want to achieve together in Brixton.

I am also aware of a posting on a local website which includes such comments as “Lambeth Labour is again embroiled in controversy over plans to demolish Brixton's iconic Recreation Centre,” “Labour has now resurrected the idea as part of its wider Future Brixton redevelopment proposals”, “Despite pumping millions of pounds of public money … on further dubious improvements, Labour is now desperate that a new Recreation Centre will emerge as the prize from whatever megalomaniac high-rise project the developers in partnership with Lambeth decide on for the area” and Labour's leadership cabal sees new leisure centres around the borough as the single most important legacy they can offer the electorate in 2014 and there's clearly a huge political imperative for them to get cracking”. These remarks are so without any foundation that they are libellous.

The Council has worked with and spoken to hundreds of people through workshops, street stalls and individual conversations. People have told us they want better support for markets, for it to be easier to get around, more start-up business space, more affordable housing, more child-friendly spaces and, critically in the case of the Rec, improved leisure facilities that are more accessible and environmentally sustainable. Our job is to make sure that we use our planning powers to ensure this happens. The Council’s Supplementary Planning Document will be produced as a draft later this year and will then go to full public consultation.

We have put up a statement on the Council website www.lambeth.gov.uk/futurebrixton to clarify the situation. We’ve also posted this statement on local neighbourhood forums’ notice boards and have asked Brixton Rec staff to display it on notice boards there.

I do understand completely how integral the Rec is to the centre of Brixton and how many fantastic sporting activities it offers. We have no intention of leaving Brixton without a leisure centre – we are however keen to improve the facilities we have.

You can get involved in the consultation around Brixton generally by emailing Lambeth on futurebrixton@lambeth.gov.uk. 

Best wishes,

Ruth


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## gaijingirl (Nov 3, 2012)

that _*is*_ quite aggressive... 

very different response to what Jeremy Clyne said to me.... I don't think I'll post his reply up, but I have told him about Gramsci's post here so I guess if he does look on here he can comment for himself.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 3, 2012)

So this is the council's statement:

There has been speculation in the local press that Brixton Recreation Centre could be replaced by a new leisure centre in the future.
The story came about because Lambeth Council is currently consulting with local people on a new document that sets out what Brixton could look like over the next 10 to 15 years, what sort of changes local people and the council would like to see in the area, and what opportunities there might be to improve the town.
One of the things the document (called a supplementary planning document or SPD) considers is whether it may be possible to improve Brixton Recreation Centre or even replace it with a brand new 21st century leisure centre providing state of the art sports facilities in the heart of Brixton.
It is very early days but the council is keen to gather as many views from local people about this, so to learn more visit www.lambeth.gov.uk/futurebrixton

so this statement tells us basically nothing whatsoever that we didn't already know...


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## Gramsci (Nov 3, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Any idea how current visitor numbers compare?


 
Sorry I do not.


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## Gramsci (Nov 3, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> So this is the council's statement:
> 
> There has been speculation in the local press that Brixton Recreation Centre could be replaced by a new leisure centre in the future.
> The story came about because Lambeth Council is currently consulting with local people on a new document that sets out what Brixton could look like over the next 10 to 15 years, what sort of changes local people and the council would like to see in the area, and what opportunities there might be to improve the town.
> ...


 
Nor does it say the original Brixton Masterplan (agreed by Cabinet and also consulted on ) specifically says the Rec will be kept. 

The SPD , as Cllr Lib Peck, said at a recent meeting is to give the Brixton Masterplan "teeth". The Masterplan is what the Council aspires to for Brixton. The SPD for Brixton is a planning document that developers and the Council will have to work within. 

So the SPD is not a document for "considering" ideas. 

Nor is it "early days". There was a lot of consultation on the Brixton Masterplan. Its not "early days". The formal draft for the SPD will be consulted on from beginning of next year. Only a few months away. This formal consultation will need a finished document that the Council want. It can still be altered after formal consultation period. But it will state the Councils aspirations for the area.


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## Gramsci (Nov 3, 2012)

nagapie said:


> My response from Ruth Ling. Doesn't exactly make me feel like saving the rec is her priority, full of a lot of council evasion speak while being quite aggressive. As usual I found the link to the consultation difficult to use, just seemed to go to Lambeth's shit website:
> 
> Dear
> 
> ...


 
In fact the Cabinet agreed the Brixton Masterplan which guarantees that the (Labour) Council would protect the Rec. So a decision was made by the Labour Council. It would be more accurate to say that the Labour Council is revisiting its decision to support , what it called, the much loved Rec.

I assume she is referring to Brixton Blog. This is not speculation.

I have looked at BB and this thread. Maybe I missed something but where does she get here quotes from? (edited to say found the referance see post below)

I got more measured reply from my local Labour Cllr. But saying the same. That the press had made to much of this, that no decisions had been made, link to Future Brixton and that he did not want Brixton to lose leisure facilities ( not the same as supporting Rec). But no reply that he would oppose the wording of SPD.

So looks like this will be the Labour groups position at the moment.


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## Gramsci (Nov 3, 2012)

nagapie said:


> My response from Ruth Ling. Doesn't exactly make me feel like saving the rec is her priority, full of a lot of council evasion speak while being quite aggressive. As usual I found the link to the consultation difficult to use, just seemed to go to Lambeth's shit website:
> 
> I am also aware of a posting on a local website which includes such comments as “Lambeth Labour is again embroiled in controversy over plans to demolish Brixton's iconic Recreation Centre,” “Labour has now resurrected the idea as part of its wider Future Brixton redevelopment proposals”, “Despite pumping millions of pounds of public money … on further dubious improvements, Labour is now desperate that a new Recreation Centre will emerge as the prize from whatever megalomaniac high-rise project the developers in partnership with Lambeth decide on for the area” and Labour's leadership cabal sees new leisure centres around the borough as the single most important legacy they can offer the electorate in 2014 and there's clearly a huge political imperative for them to get cracking”. These remarks are so without any foundation that they are libellous.
> 
> ...


 
Found it. Its on the LD website. Her quotes are from the LD website. Why did she not just say so? Does she think people cannot use the internet ? Should have known.  More interested in hating each other than listening to what people say here and on Brixton Blog.

Though sadly the LD article is not exactly supporting Rec either.


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## nagapie (Nov 3, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Found it. Its on the LD website. Her quotes are from the LD website. Why did she not just say so? Does she think people cannot use the internet ? Should have known.  More interested in hating each other than listening to what people say here and on Brixton Blog.
> 
> Though sadly the LD article is not exactly supporting Rec either.


 
I replied to her about how I'd so far found all the consultations I'd tried to be a part of inaccessible and lacking in transparency, which I have. I told her I hoped this would not be the case again and also asked for an explanation as to why Streatham still did not have it's leisure facilities.


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## quimcunx (Nov 3, 2012)

On one of the ice rink thread someone posted a map showing the footprint of the ice rink, and possibly the rec too but I can't find it. @Crispy maybe?


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## Gramsci (Nov 3, 2012)

The "libellous" LD article makes interesting reading. Whoever wrote it should post here.

This for example:



> Officials have been forced to clarify that the Council is still consulting over proposals that could be some way off but there has been no denial that the rumours are based in fact. Indeed anyone with the patience to wade through the turgid Supplementary Planning Document for Brixton will easily spot the foundations of them.




Spot on 
It is wading through the small print that counts. Easy to miss.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I replied to her about how I'd so far found all the consultations I'd tried to be a part of inaccessible and lacking in transparency, which I have. I told her I hoped this would not be the case again and also asked for an explanation as to why Streatham still did not have it's leisure facilities.


 
ahh.. Jeremy Clyne did reply about this and the pool is currently being built it seems but there are lots of unsatisfactory issues over it. For example apparently there have been no stakeholder meetings for the "non ice" users of the Recreation Centre, which means that Tesco and the Council have just designed it as they wish. It appears there was a meeting finally held a few weeks back where lots of users expressed concerns over the changing facilities and other areas but apparently it is now too late to change anything. Allegedly promisese were also made to make sure that there was reprovision of the pre-exisiting facitilies (such as the sauna and steam rooms) but (whilst some other additional facilities such as a sports hall have been provided) they have been left out.

This is EXACTLY what I am concerned for with Brixton Rec. that.. they will tear it down, rebuild somewhere else (eventually) with a fraction of the services currently being provided, or the services they feel are needed rather than those users actually wish to have. I simply cannot believe that we will get "as good" or "better". It is bound to be smaller, more cramped, more expensive... the kind of "changing village" that we see in Clapham, E. Dulwich etc etc. Will ALL the money raised by selling the land the Rec is currently built on be ploughed back into the new Recreation Centre? Will there be guarantees that the cost of entry will remain the same for a reasonable period after the opening of a new centre (not just for a few months and then suddenly a huge increase?).

I think the dark ramp thing.. it's an excuse to sell that land for more flats, shops etc. So much money was spent on the refurb - if they are still worried about the ramp etc, why not think creatively? Open up a competition to create a "tunnel of light" amongst lighting companies/artists etc... make it somewhere that people will come from just to see. Get some large paint companies to sponsor/work with students at local art colleges to "brighten up" the Rec etc. Maybe those ideas are just fanciful - I'm not a businesswoman but I really do think it must be possible to find other ways of making the Rec more profitable. Work with the community, not just with property developers and more chain stores.


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## nagapie (Nov 4, 2012)

gg, I may lift some of that excellent paragraph when I next write to the counsellors.


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## Ms Ordinary (Nov 4, 2012)

Emailing councillors - is it better to email them individually or just cc in everyone?
(i.e. your own ward councillors plus the cabinet member ones)

Someone I spoke to (about a different matter) reckoned a big cc list had a kind of snowball effect but I couldn't quite work out what she was getting at.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2012)

I emailed all three of mine at once and got a response from one which suggested that the 3 of them had discussed it together and indeed are bringing it up at a meeting soon.  My response copied in the other 2 councillors.


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## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Emailing councillors - is it better to email them individually or just cc in everyone?
> (i.e. your own ward councillors plus the cabinet member ones)
> 
> Someone I spoke to (about a different matter) reckoned a big cc list had a kind of snowball effect but I couldn't quite work out what she was getting at.


 
On an issue like this I email all three. Unless you have cllrs from different political parties. I have emailed all three Coldharbour ward cllrs starting "Dear Ward Cllrs" to start with. Giving them a chance to respond first.


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## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2012)

The email I sent






Dear Ward Cllrs,
 I attend the Brixton Rec User Group meeting on Monday 29th October. This was well attended meeting with a representative cross section of Brixton. It was agreed that the feeling of those attending the meeting was that the Brixton Rec should be kept. That this should be written into the SPDs for the Brixton area. 

 It was also agreed that people should email there local Cllrs about this.

Recently in the consultation on the Supplementary Planning Documents (SPDs) ,for the Brixton Masterplan area, officers suggested as an idea that the Rec could be demolished, the land sold to developer and a new Rec built nearby with a Section 106 agreement. This is in the recent draft consultation SPD

I have used the Rec for swimming for a long time. It is a large friendly pool. With space for all. Parents with infants, children and lane swimmers. All in one space without feeling crowded. It is a nice place to swim. It is a place where all ages and races mix. So is representative of the what is best in Brixton.

I would also like to point out that the last time the Rec was under threat was in a Tory/ LD Council. The Labour Group at the time did a lot to oppose the plans of the Tory/ LD administration to demolish it. 

See here minutes from 2008 where it is clearly stated what the Labour group did in opposition to the Tory/LD plans. 



background information:

 I have looked up the old Masterplan. In that the Rec is to be kept. This was agreed by Cabinet but does not have planning weight. That is what SPDs are for. So this is change from Masterplan. Page 108 section called "Brixton Section Road" 5.1.10 of the Brixton Masterplan says under heading "Brixton Rec":

"The Rec will be refurbished and opened up as a major community resource, incorporating retail, leisure facilities and social infrastructure. The potential to open up the frontage of the Rec is being reviewed, including the implementation of ground level access and new signage along Brixton Station Road. The Masterplan recognises further potential to review the blind eastern frontage of the building. The potential to better and more appropriately enclose the service yards, currently contained by palisaded gates and open gates and open security fencing to the northern end of the street, will also be reviewed."

FYI this is what it says in the draft SPD doc that was used for recent consultation

 from page 27 
​• Brixton Recreation Centre: The current facility is much loved,​enormously popular and serves the entire Borough and beyond. However,​many residents think it is inaccessible because current access arrangements​require the use of an exterior flight of stairs or a long ramp which is dark​and not particularly welcoming. The building is large although much of the​interior space is not efficiently used.​The building is in need of significant levels of ongoing investment and​running costs are forecast to continue to rise significantly. If a decision is​taken to work towards securing a new replacement facility, the temporary​ice rink site may be an appropriate location. If this was the case, the​release of the existing site would present an opportunity to attract new retail-​led investment to this prominent town centre location. The ground floor​provides flexibility for a range of retail uses, with the most appropriate mix​likely to involve a limited amount of new food retail floorspace together with​comparison floorspace to complement the existing pattern of high street and​independent trading in the town. The site presents a major opportunity for​high density mixed residential development on upper floors which takes​account of the exceptional public transport accessibility of the site. Should​a suitable user come forward, the site would also be appropriate for other​town centre/community/education uses. If the site is redeveloped,​advantage should be taken of the existing basement accommodation as this​provides potential for the incorporation of basement parking.​​​article from Brixton Blog here.​


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 5, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Emailing councillors - is it better to email them individually or just cc in everyone?
> (i.e. your own ward councillors plus the cabinet member ones)
> 
> Someone I spoke to (about a different matter) reckoned a big cc list had a kind of snowball effect but I couldn't quite work out what she was getting at.


I emailed all three councillors and got a reply from one saying that the boss (Lib Peck) would reply more fully in due course. She basically echoed the same arguments that are in the planning doc - i.e. that centre is well used and loved but is too expensive to run:



> Thanks very much for getting in touch and sharing your views about Brixton Recreation Centre. I’ve visited the Rec twice in the last few months and I very much appreciate how popular the sports centre is with all sections of the community.
> 
> I’d like to reassure you that the Council has not made any decisions about the future of Brixton Recreation Centre. We are, however, thinking about the whole regeneration of Brixton Town Centre, and therefore it makes sense to think about leisure facilities. The Rec is a much loved facility but it is very expensive to run, and in an era of rising energy prices, this is an issue that we need to think about. Accessibility is also an issue. We therefore think it is sensible to discuss with local residents about whether the Council should invest in building a brand new leisure centre in Brixton to replace the Rec.
> 
> ...


 
Although they say no decision has yet been made, it sounds very much like they have a strong preference for replacement of the Rec.


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## leanderman (Nov 5, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I emailed all three councillors and got a reply from one saying that the boss (Lib Peck) would reply more fully in due course. She basically echoed the same arguments that are in the planning doc - i.e. that centre is well used and loved but is too expensive to run:
> 
> 
> 
> Although they say no decision has yet been made, it sounds very much like they have a strong preference for replacement of the Rec.


 
You may be right. It's madness. You grow to love that place.


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## boohoo (Nov 5, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I emailed all three councillors and got a reply from one saying that the boss (Lib Peck) would reply more fully in due course. She basically echoed the same arguments that are in the planning doc - i.e. that centre is well used and loved but is too expensive to run:
> 
> Although they say no decision has yet been made, it sounds very much like they have a strong preference for replacement of the Rec.


 
Did you see the Lip Peck tweet the other week about how please they were that the new pools/leisure centre were done under Labour in Lambeth. 

That email response sounds like a civil service cut and paste job... which I'm beginning to think it is. I'd like to know what the accessibility issue is. So far, it's fine for parents with buggies.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 5, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I'd like to know what the accessibility issue is. So far, it's fine for parents with buggies.


I know BRUG members and others are trying to find this out. I know at least one FOI request has been put in too, maybe more.


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## Gramsci (Nov 5, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Did you see the Lip Peck tweet the other week about how please they were that the new pools/leisure centre were done under Labour in Lambeth.
> 
> That email response sounds like a civil service cut and paste job... which I'm beginning to think it is. I'd like to know what the accessibility issue is. So far, it's fine for parents with buggies.


 
It this according to officers

FYI this is what it says in the draft SPD doc that was used for recent consultation

from page 27




> • Brixton Recreation Centre: The current facility is much loved,
> enormously popular and serves the entire Borough and beyond. However,
> many residents think it is inaccessible because current access arrangements
> require the use of an exterior flight of stairs or a long ramp which is dark
> and not particularly welcoming.


 
It was already dealt with in the original Brixton Masterplan by altering the front of building.

My reply also looks like the Labour Cllrs are all singing of the same hymn-sheet on the issue of the Rec. Some of the wording is similar. I wonder if Labour Cllrs got briefed on it? Make sense politically.


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## Gramsci (Nov 5, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I emailed all three councillors and got a reply from one saying that the boss (Lib Peck) would reply more fully in due course. She basically echoed the same arguments that are in the planning doc - i.e. that centre is well used and loved but is too expensive to run:
> 
> Although they say no decision has yet been made, it sounds very much like they have a strong preference for replacement of the Rec.


 
Yes I agree. But its frustrating that they will not come clean and say that there preference is to replace it. Then we can have a real debate.

What I think could happen is that the next months will be spent by Council discussing and "consulting" but saying no "decision" has been made.

Then the SPD will be worded in a vague fashion. That officers will "explore" options.

Two years later they assume people all will be so tired of it all that they will accept a replacement. The Rec will also not get any major maintenance and so later on officers will say its has to be replaced as its unfeasible to upgrade.

Call me cynical but thats the long term strategy. Above all officers and Cllrs will be careful never say definitively that the Council wants the Rec to move off that piece of real estate.


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## quimcunx (Nov 6, 2012)

Is it possible to get a Freedom of Information thing about costs of running, income, user numbers etc?  Or is that out there anyway, somewhere? 

How much would it cost to build something that would provide the same amount of activity/capacity?  I suppose the idea would be to fund it from selling that land and moving it somewhere less central and cheaper and, in the end, smaller with fewer functions.  Or some PPI thing like Streatham Hub... 

Is it possible to get FOI on emails between ward councillors which mention 'Brixton Rec' or whatever?


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I emailed all three councillors and got a reply from one saying that the boss (Lib Peck) would reply more fully in due course. She basically echoed the same arguments that are in the planning doc - i.e. that centre is well used and loved but is too expensive to run:


 
In Brixton Blog Cllrs Lib Peck is reported as saying:



> Cllr Lib Peck, cabinet member for regeneration, denied that there would be a financial reason to move sites, saying: “I wouldn’t say it’s economically unviable.”


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

I found on Lambeth website the following comment on the new lighting.( Here is website of the company that made the new lighting on outside of Rec.)



> Architects Amenity Space have been commissioned to produce a new sign and light sculpture that will be installed at the leisure centre’s main entrance to create a warm welcome for the centre’s users.


 
So somehow this got forgotten when the draft consultation SPD was written. Or is this lighting now regarded as a failure?



 this is what it says in the draft SPD doc that was used for recent consultation

from page 27 
​


> • Brixton Recreation Centre: The current facility is much loved,​enormously popular and serves the entire Borough and beyond. However,​many residents think it is inaccessible because current access arrangements​require the use of an exterior flight of stairs or a long ramp which is dark​and not particularly welcoming.​


​​


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

Just re read my last 2 post. My cynicism levels are rising.


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## Winot (Nov 6, 2012)

I wonder if it's worth making a concerted push to get the lighting issues sorted for the ramp & entrance. If successful, it makes it harder to use that as an argument for destruction of the whole Rec.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

Winot said:


> I wonder if it's worth making a concerted push to get the lighting issues sorted for the ramp & entrance. If successful, it makes it harder to use that as an argument for destruction of the whole Rec.


 
Already being done.

IMO its a red herring. Something officers can go on about. Even though Ive just shown that the Council commissioned lighting scheme contradicts what officers are saying.


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## Ms T (Nov 6, 2012)

It sounds like there isn't an access problem - there's a ramp which needs better lighting.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 6, 2012)

I am usually of the less-cynical persuasion but over my years in Brixton I have become more and more suspicious..

I wonder if Lambeth already have people lined up to build on that site... Tesco *or similar?*

I know there's already a big Tesco in Brixton but at this stage NOTHING would surprise me.


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## Greebo (Nov 6, 2012)

Ms T said:


> It sounds like there isn't an access problem - there's a ramp which needs better lighting.


Or signposting; there's one sign telling you it's to the side of the steps, but nothing I've seen at the mouth of the ramp itself.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Is it possible to get a Freedom of Information thing about costs of running, income, user numbers etc? Or is that out there anyway, somewhere?


Already being done....watch this space 



quimcunx said:


> Is it possible to get FOI on emails between ward councillors which mention 'Brixton Rec' or whatever?


In theory yes. This would need a separate FOI request. However, Cllrs are not stupid and it may be the case (as it often is) that things like this get discussed offline rather than put down in official emails or documents. Worth doing though....and probably worth concentrating on emails between people like
Sally Prentice, Cabinet Member for Culture, Leisure and the Olympics​Lib Peck, Cabinet Member for Regeneration​and their staff/officers. (Casting the net too wide can fall foul of the £700 rule.)


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> In Brixton Blog Cllrs Lib Peck is reported as saying:





> _Cllr Lib Peck, cabinet member for regeneration, denied that there would be a financial reason to move sites, saying: “I wouldn’t say it’s economically unviable.”_


interesting. So it's not unviable in its current state. They just want the new retail and private housing units.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Did you see the Lip Peck tweet the other week about how please they were that the new pools/leisure centre were done under Labour in Lambeth.


Yes, Cllrs seem very fond of making this point, and the same one has been made to me in emails from Labour Cllrs. I think the subtext is "look, we've proved we can build new leisure centres, so trust us on this one"


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## gaijingirl (Nov 6, 2012)

yes but, Clapham is a bit shit and Streatham is already mired in contoversy with its users.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> yes but, Clapham is a bit shit and Streatham is already mired in contoversy with its users.


Interesting.....I haven't been to either. Do you know any more?


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## Crispy (Nov 6, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> On one of the ice rink thread someone posted a map showing the footprint of the ice rink, and possibly the rec too but I can't find it. @Crispy maybe?


The rec is about twice the footprint of the old car park (now ice rink)


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The rec is about twice the footprint of the old car park (now ice rink)


Yeah that's one of the things I'm worried about. Along with International House (which the council also owns and, i think, wants to decant staff out of into the proposed new council accommodation) there's a prime bit of real estate land there right in the middle of Brixton, perfect for exploitation via retail and private housing. The Rec gets left with a much smaller space...


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## gaijingirl (Nov 6, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Interesting.....I haven't been to either. Do you know any more?


 
well I posted about Streatham a page or so back.

Clapham, I went and it's just one of these much more cramped, changing village style pools which are so in fashion right now. Going as a family is rubbish compared to the Rec and even swimming by myself I found it very cramped, very narrow lanes etc especially in comparison to the older style pools such as Brixton Rec and, obviously, Crystal Palace.  (and they're not massive anyway!)

Read Boohoo's report here which chimes with my experience tbh..

http://littlelambeth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/taking-baby-for-swim-part-2-clapham.html


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yeah that's one of the things I'm worried about. Along with International House (which the council also owns and, i think, wants to decant staff out of into the proposed new council accommodation) there's a prime bit of real estate land there right in the middle of Brixton, perfect for exploitation via retail and private housing. The Rec gets left with a much smaller space...


 
The Council in its wisdom as already decided to give International House to the developer that does the "SW2 Enterprise Centre" ( the Town Hall and surrounds) as part payment.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 6, 2012)

Clapham isn't a terrible pool but I really do like, for example, having a proper naked shower after a swim. I like roomy lockers. I like lanes that are wide enough to overtake. The new pools tend to be smaller, cramped communcal changing, more sanitized and just more stressful - which negates the whole point of swimming for me. But then that's why I like lido swimming. It's really hard to get a pool that satisfies both swimmers and families, but Brixton Rec is not bad really. Crystal Palace is better, but then it should be.


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## quimcunx (Nov 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The Council in its wisdom as already decided to give International House to the developer that does the "SW2 Enterprise Centre" ( the Town Hall and surrounds) as part payment.


 
Part payment for what?

Cheers, Crispy.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Part payment for what?


For new council offices on the site of the current town hall. The idea is to build loads of new offices on plots directly next to the town hall and modernise the town hall itself. They want to consolidate staff from several buildings into a bigger main council building to save money and release other sites (sounds familiar?!) They claim this will save £4.5m per year, but the overall cost will be £30m.

Let's do some number crunching:



> Cost of new town hall: £30m
> 'Austerity' cuts in Lambeth: approx £30-40m
> Value of 170 short-life properties Lambeth wants to sell: £32m


 

http://www.brixtonblog.com/30m-lambeth-town-hall-plans-for-brixton-blasted-as-vanity-project/5885
http://www.brixtonblog.com/lambeth-council-seeks-development-partner-for-new-town-hall-campus-2/6390


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## Tricky Skills (Nov 6, 2012)

There is a plaque on the wall at Brixton Rec. It declares that Cllr Lib Peck re-opened the Rec in 2007.

I always walk past this and think... yeah?


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## quimcunx (Nov 6, 2012)

@Brixton Hatter.  As soon as I asked I thought that would probably be it.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

Tricky Skills said:


> There is a plaque on the wall at Brixton Rec. It declares that Cllr Lib Peck re-opened the Rec in 2007.
> 
> I always walk past this and think... yeah?


And IIRC £3.5m was spend on the refurb.


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## Manter (Nov 6, 2012)

Ms T said:


> It sounds like there isn't an access problem - there's a ramp which needs better lighting.


Can we do some sort of guerrilla LED installation? The alleyway by my house is dark, so I put lights up, I didn't't demolish the house


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## boohoo (Nov 6, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> I wonder if Lambeth already have people lined up to build on that site... Tesco *or similar?*
> 
> I know there's already a big Tesco in Brixton but at this stage NOTHING would surprise me.


 
A more central big Tesco could be built in Brixton freeing up the Acre Lane site for housing?


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Part payment for what?
> 
> Cheers, Crispy.


 
From SW2 Enterprise 


> Surplus Assets
> Following development of the civic accommodation and relocation of Lambeth staff two buildings will become surplus to requirements.
> 1. International House
> When the new civic accommodation is available the freehold interest with vacant possession in International House will be available to the Developer for use/change of use or development.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

Manter said:


> The alleyway by my house is dark, so I put lights up, I didn't't demolish the house


 
You clearly do not work for Lambeth Council


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## quimcunx (Nov 6, 2012)

boohoo said:


> A more central big Tesco could be built in Brixton freeing up the Acre Lane site for housing?


 
Wasn't there something years back about Tesco wanting to expand their current site but it would involve compulsory purchases of private land/houses next to it? 

If we have a Tesco on the Rec site in 5 years time I want to see heads on spikes.


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## Greebo (Nov 6, 2012)

Manter said:


> Can we do some sort of guerrilla LED installation? The alleyway by my house is dark, so I put lights up, I didn't't demolish the house


IMHO it's not that badly lit, it just seems that way because the floor and walls are very dark red bricks.  One job lot of white gloss paint, maybe two men, no more than 3 days to paint the lot (just don't overpaint those decorative plaques done by locals), no problem.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2012)

Greebo said:


> IMHO it's not that badly lit, it just seems that way because the floor and walls are very dark red bricks. One job lot of white gloss paint, maybe two men, no more than 3 days to paint the lot (just don't overpaint those decorative plaques done by locals), no problem.


 
I went by there this evening and it looks to me like the bulbs have been replaced by brighter ones. 

I also looked at the Council commissioned lighting scheme on the front of building. Does not do much imo to help light up that area. It helps but not much.


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## OpalFruit (Nov 6, 2012)

boohoo said:


> A more central big Tesco could be built in Brixton freeing up the Acre Lane site for housing?


 
Highly unlikely IMO - no space for the great big car parks that big supermarkets like.

A Primark or the like might be a contender, I suppose.


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## quimcunx (Nov 6, 2012)

The icerink could be carpark (there's novel), a Tesco carpark.


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## Gramsci (Nov 7, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Any idea how current visitor numbers compare?


 

The latest user figures for Brixton Rec September 2012 are:
Total 60,380 visits, of which
26,811 were gym, exercise classes, dryside activities
22,000 swimming and wetside
1700 GP referrals
5000 programmed childrens activites,


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## quimcunx (Nov 7, 2012)

Cheers. That's a big increase on the previously council-lauded figures then.

GP referrals!?


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## Gramsci (Nov 7, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Cheers. That's a big increase on the previously council-lauded figures then.
> 
> GP referrals!?


 
A lady I was talking in Rec said she got some kind of discount for a while. She was referred by GP to lose weight. Do not know details.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 7, 2012)

OpalFruit said:


> Highly unlikely IMO - no space for the great big car parks that big supermarkets like.
> 
> A Primark or the like might be a contender, I suppose.


 
They could put the carpark on top - but I think they will go for housing on top - shops underneath as they've stated - much more lucrative!  It's just a question of what shops underneath I suppose.  I don't doubt it will be a big chainstore.


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## boohoo (Nov 7, 2012)

Is there a way we can bet on this? Make some money in the process...


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## OpalFruit (Nov 8, 2012)

Primark?


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## cerv2005 (Nov 8, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> well I posted about Streatham a page or so back.
> 
> Clapham, I went and it's just one of these much more cramped, changing village style pools which are so in fashion right now. Going as a family is rubbish compared to the Rec and even swimming by myself I found it very cramped, very narrow lanes etc especially in comparison to the older style pools such as Brixton Rec and, obviously, Crystal Palace. (and they're not massive anyway!)
> 
> ...


 
Spot on about group changing but I think the pool itself isn't too bad and no worse than the Rec. Obviously not as long as the previous one but new ones never are; 33.3m doesn't make sense for competing (shame for the rest of us tho!). I'm sure it's wider but have no proof obvs. I remember the old pool could handle 3 lanes and that was about it. This one can handle 3 lanes and still leave a decent chunk of the pool for those who just want to muck about. In my experience more people there are actually swimming as well as opposed to those at the Rec who just pop down after the gym for a bit of a dip and then end up chatting at the end of a lane for 10 minutes (grrrr!). My main complaint would be that it's reaaaally shallow.

As you'll know I could have just got lucky with my visits, other times of day it could be rubbish. Only time I feel quite happy swimming at the rec is on... actually I shalln't say as it'll ruin it then eh? ;-)


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## gaijingirl (Nov 8, 2012)

no the rec pool isn't perfect either. we swimmers are a fussy lot. im happiest at the lido with only me in it.. and the ducks.. but that's a bit much to ask!  but it's about more than just the pool, which has a lot of plus points to it too.


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## Gramsci (Nov 8, 2012)

cerv2005 said:


> In my experience more people there are actually swimming as well as opposed to those at the Rec who just pop down after the gym for a bit of a dip and then end up chatting at the end of a lane for 10 minutes (grrrr!). My main complaint would be that it's reaaaally shallow.
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## leanderman (Nov 8, 2012)

And you can swim in your pants in the Rec.

At least, the huge guy in lane 3 was at 4pm today.

On exiting the pool he just pulled on his trackie bottoms and left. No towel or anything!


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## Elgar (Nov 8, 2012)

leanderman said:


> And you can swim in your pants in the Rec.
> 
> At least, the huge guy in lane 3 was at 4pm today.
> 
> On exiting the pool he just pulled on his trackie bottoms and left. No towel or anything!


He probably spent a few minutes outside being resourceful with the hair dryers.


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## boohoo (Nov 8, 2012)

cerv2005 said:


> Spot on about group changing but I think the pool itself isn't too bad and no worse than the Rec. Obviously not as long as the previous one but new ones never are; 33.3m doesn't make sense for competing (shame for the rest of us tho!). I'm sure it's wider but have no proof obvs. I remember the old pool could handle 3 lanes and that was about it. This one can handle 3 lanes and still leave a decent chunk of the pool for those who just want to muck about. In my experience more people there are actually swimming as well as opposed to those at the Rec who just pop down after the gym for a bit of a dip and then end up chatting at the end of a lane for 10 minutes (grrrr!). My main complaint would be that it's reaaaally shallow.
> 
> As you'll know I could have just got lucky with my visits, other times of day it could be rubbish. Only time I feel quite happy swimming at the rec is on... actually I shalln't say as it'll ruin it then eh? ;-)


 
There is a difference with the learner pool at Clapham and the one at the Rec. The one at Clapham goes straight in and the one at the Rec has steps leading into it which works much better if you have a baby or children with you. I think it is a bigger learner pool. Also the main pool at the Rec has the bit that the kids can splash around in and the lanes on the other side for more serious swimmers - I've not seen that design elsewhere.


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## Badgers (Nov 9, 2012)

@SaveBrixtonRec is a new twitter account


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## OpalFruit (Nov 9, 2012)

I'd want to see the whole business plan before supporting or protesting any one position.
There have been years of comment about the expense of maintaining a pool 3 stories up, the expense of running and maintaining the Rec because of it's layout and design, and whether the space (not just the pool) is well used and matching demand. The gym was in the old cafeteria, for example, and there were loads of issues with that. (I ued to be a frequent Rec user, now go to the Lido as it fits my travel better).
Brixton needs more affordable housing, more social housing, more employment and therefore  more businesses, more people able to give business to the businesses.
I wouldn't want to see the opportunities, facilities or community benefit of the Rec reduced or compromised, not one bit, but neither do I want to see the lines of faililng shops along the High Rd get worse or turn into more betting shops and payday loan outfits, or all the available new housing being in the hands of Barratt. 

Maybe a newly developed Rec could support the overall needs of Brixton. But I'd be defending the Rec if it was to be swept away or diminished or made less accessible to the community as part of an overall scheme. I just don't know, yet.

But defendiing and emphasising it's imortance is a good thing.


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## boohoo (Nov 9, 2012)

@opalfruit Idealist.  I'd love the idea that a re-worked Rec or even demolished could all be re-worked into something  with more social and affordable house, offering similar facilities and better employment... but I just don't see it happening otherwise people would be happy with the changes that have been happening elsewhere.

Has the high road got lots of failing shops? Isn't that a bigger issue than Brixton?

A good manager of the Rec would see the opportunity in the building and promote it. Make it the best leisure facility in London! Lots of space to put on lots of types of events!


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## nagapie (Nov 9, 2012)

There is no way that any land from the rec would go to social housing. Lambeth is getting rid of as much of that as possible. Why would they suddenly turn the tide and give up the fortune they could make on that land? Never going to happen. 

Business space will probably go to huge corporations. Do you really think they'll give that space to small businesses? And if they did they would charge an unaffordable rent. You just have to look at their record on such things everywhere else to know that nothing good will come of it.


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## OpalFruit (Nov 9, 2012)

I agree business / retail space would be likely to go to huge corporations,  but they are sources of employment.

It may be idealist to think that in a Cooperative Council the council would listen to a coherent community plan which could give the council a capital receipt (for that is what they surely want, and need) as well as providing quality community facilities  and affordable housing, but IF they are resolved to tear down the Rec it  might just work as well as an 'anti' campaign.


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## cerv2005 (Nov 10, 2012)

In response to Gramsci (quote thing not working for me!)

Yeah I'm not saying it's underused. The opposite in fact. I'm ranting at those who get into lanes and start chatting at the end after their workout who get in the way of those who are properly swimming. I see less of this at Clapham. As someone else has mentioned the Rec has that lovely splash about area which is ideal for those who aren't doing lengths, I wish the post-workout lot would hang there. I personally find Clapham a bit better for doing lengths (probably because it's not as busy!) but the Rec has more character.


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## nagapie (Nov 10, 2012)

Another meeting to discuss this issue at the Rec on Tuesday at 6.


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## Gramsci (Nov 11, 2012)

nagapie said:


> Another meeting to discuss this issue at the Rec on Tuesday at 6.


 
* The next all user/supporter meeting is on*
*TUESDAY 20 NOVEMBER* 6PM in the Rec social room on level 5.


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## Gramsci (Nov 11, 2012)

cerv2005 said:


> In response to Gramsci (quote thing not working for me!)
> As someone else has mentioned the Rec has that lovely splash about area which is ideal for those who aren't doing lengths,  I wish the post-workout lot would hang there. I personally find Clapham a bit better for doing lengths (probably because it's not as busy!) but the Rec has more character.


 
I know what you mean. Posing at end on lane. 

Though I sometimes chat to people there at end of lane as well.


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2012)

Thought this was interesting. From BRUG Facebook Page​​

Regarding the Brixton Recreation Centre’s Design Quality.
by Rec User. Member of a local architectural practise, specialising primarily in the conservation, restoration and alteration of historic buildings.

The Rec was the result of an extended design development period that modern architects would only now dream of and like the Routmaster bus was made to satisfy many criteria, that go far beyond the reach and aspirations of most modern public sports and leisure design, with exception being the Olympic buildings.

The scale of the Rec is impressive and the range of sporting provision is exceptional, from lawn bowls to climbing. The sports hall is of a size that even today is rare, because of its generous height can accommodate many competitive indoor sports at a high level. The pool hall is exceptional and its architectural quality is unmatched anywhere else in London. The space, natural light, timber lining and arrangement of family friendly pools are a delight and a credit to the vision of the local political leaders and architects.

One of the most unique qualities of the Rec is the relationship and visibility of all the activities available; this makes it truly accessible and friendly. It satisfies the inclusive agenda that was high up on the Architects Brief. The desire to have as much natural light within the building right down to the basement has produced a welcoming environment and has avoided completely the claustrophobic nature of most new sports and leisure provision in the city. These have an arrangement of tightly packed boxes, so as make the buildings as small as possible and as cheap as possible to build. Such ambitious aspirations for the Rec made the building expensive to design and build. This investment is today enjoyed and taken for granted by all the Rec users, however it is thrown in to sharp contrast, when the cheap build and mean spaces of the new Clapham pool and Peckham Pulse are experienced.

Considering the building is almost forty years old, it is in very good condition, the massive stainless steel stair rails almost look new and the brick cladding and copper roofs have weathered beautifully. The investment in top quality expensive finishes have lasted well and continue to perform as designed. This demonstrates again the vision and commitment of the original team, to create a lasting legacy for Brixton. The dividends of generous design and materials, are flexibility of use and reduced repair and maintenance costs.

The Rec is not only an unrepeatable asset in brick and concrete but, in the unique spaces and combination of provision, it has enabled life, leisure and sport accessibility to a historically deprived and troubled community. The Rec has become a beacon of enlighten provision and symbolic of investment and regeneration of deprived city areas.
During the life of the building it has been able to be improved and modified to meet changing needs. The original Restaurant /club area has become a very successful fitness provision and the recent refurbishment of the changing areas has improved family access and privacy issues for minority users not envisaged in the original brief. The generous space provision in the original design has made many of the changes possible that would have been impossible if the original design had not been of grand ambition and vision.

The High Quality Design and grand scale of the Rec, has allowed accessibility to a range of sport and leisure on a scale and richness unusual for an area such as Brixton. It’s Unique and exceptional design qualities should not be devalued by concerns over ageing plant and services, all buildings need services replacing as they wear out. Buildings should not be treated like consumer durables and sent to land fill if the on switch breaks. The embodied energy in the Rec is high, and I do not believe that replacement studies will have fully appreciated the vast scale of the building that fits on a modest size plot. The Rec has a pool on the second floor and the sport hall on the 6th floor, not out of Architectural whim but to fit all the facilities in.
The Rec is an asset that has a value way beyond its replacement cost, due not only to the social and political capital it owns but, also the investment in good, generous, brave and visionary Architecture.

This Architecture not only inspires and uplifts but, is accommodating change and new visions.


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2012)

From BRUG facebook page with report update on there as well.


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## Crispy (Nov 13, 2012)

I'd love to get my hands on a set of architectural floor plans for the rec. Wouldn't mind having a go at designing an improved entrance either


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## gaijingirl (Nov 13, 2012)

that post is great Gramsci...


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## Manter (Nov 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> *The next all user/supporter meeting is on*
> *TUESDAY 20 NOVEMBER* 6PM in the Rec social room on level 5.


Can you do me a favour?  Can you say in the session that there are people who would love to come as they like and value the Rec, but can't be back home at 6?  No way I can get back from St Paul's in time to join a meeting at 6.....


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 13, 2012)

http://savebrixtonrec.wordpress.com


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## quimcunx (Nov 13, 2012)

That is a great post and what shines out from it like a beacon, for me, is that the Rec was a huge financial investment, with huge ambition, unprecedented. Any plan which involved replacing it wholesale wouldn't have a hope in hell of having equivalent investment and withoutthat it's just not possible for the community to be better served by a new one. The money and ambition just wouldn't be there.


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> that post is great Gramsci...


 
I would like to make it clear I did not write it. Its from BRUG facebook page ( link on post) which Ive cut and pasted. As people might not have seen it. Yes it is a very good piece by an architect who uses the Rec.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 13, 2012)

... it's a very interesting piece he's written. It was interesting to me because he pretty much embodies how I feel about the Rec just from a lay person's point of view. So, it's nice to have that vindicated by someone with a professional opinion.


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2012)

Manter said:


> Can you do me a favour? Can you say in the session that there are people who would love to come as they like and value the Rec, but can't be back home at 6? No way I can get back from St Paul's in time to join a meeting at 6.....


 
I totally in sympathy with your post. Ive already said the times are not good for me. I am going next meeting but cannot do this all the time. Weekdays in general are bad for me. I am better at weekend meetings. For some of us , like u say, its not easy to do meetings in evenings. It can make one feel cut out of loop a bit. As I cannot do endless meetings. Why cant organisations like Council and GLL use internet more?

Also said that is why the internet can be very useful.

If I was you I would put a comment on the BRUG Facebook page saying the above.

BRUG know about this thread. My view is that all info from the various social networks should be used to enable maximum involvement.

Though it is difficult to do without things getting chaotic.


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## Manter (Nov 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I totally in sympathy with your post. Ive already said the times are not good for me. Weekdays in general are bad for me. I am better at weekend meetings. For some of us , like u say, its not easy to do meetings.
> 
> Also said that is why the internet can be very useful.
> 
> ...


thx for the advice, will do.

And have written a letter too.  Which the Northerner proof-read and removed some of the more caustic comments 

Appreciate you keeping us all up to date on this


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'd love to get my hands on a set of architectural floor plans for the rec. Wouldn't mind having a go at designing an improved entrance either


 
There are a set of plans. I think BRUG want to put them online somehow. Might ask about them at the meeting.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 13, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'd love to get my hands on a set of architectural floor plans for the rec. Wouldn't mind having a go at designing an improved entrance either


Mate, you would have a field day with the plans! IMO there's so much potential in the current building, including many potential new ways of using the current space. If you have any bright ideas, do let us know (pm if necessary...) because ammunition may be required in future on this issue...


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## jeremyclyne (Nov 14, 2012)

Just caught up with this thread.
My Vassall ward colleague Cllr Steve Bradley has put down this motion for next week's Lambeth Full Council meeting:

 _Brixton Recreation Centre_

_Council recognises the importance of the Brixton Recreation Centre in_
_transforming the lives of all local residents. Council is concerned that having_
_only recently invested over £3m in the Brixton Recreation Centre the_
_Administration is proposing demolition of the leisure centre._
_Council calls upon the Labour Cabinet to ensure that all users of the Brixton_
_Recreation Centre are properly consulted about their needs and requirements_
_before any irrevocable decision is made and that a commitment is made_
_immediately and publicly that any replacement leisure facility - if this is what is_
_decided - will be a like for like replacement or better in terms of size and_
_facilities_

The Labour Cabinet member Sally Prentice has made various amendments including removing the commitment to any replacement, if that should be the decision, being like for like or better in terms of size and facilities.


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## quimcunx (Nov 15, 2012)

the ''commitment to any replacement, if that should be the decision, being like for like or better in terms of size and facilities'' need to be etched on a large stone tablet, and if it's not adhered to dropped on the head of whoever is responsible. 

If you can't give us something better,  and you can't -  as it would be prohibitively expensive, the council would not be able to get the funding itself and any 'collaboration' or trade-off with the private sector would result in something smaller, cheaper, with fewer facilities in order to maximise their profits - then we'll keep the rec we've got thank you very much.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 15, 2012)

jeremyclyne said:


> Just caught up with this thread.
> My Vassall ward colleague Cllr Steve Bradley has put down this motion for next week's Lambeth Full Council meeting:
> 
> _Brixton Recreation Centre_
> ...


Are these the same Lib Dems who wanted to demolish the Rec when they were in control of Lambeth Council with the Tories around 5 years ago?

They are? What a surprise!

Check out this two-faced shit on their website: http://lambethlibdems.org.uk/en/article/2012/620768/comment-labour-takes-wrecking-ball-to-rec



> We will not make a knee-jerk reaction and engage in quick political point-scoring as Labour did - for they now risk being seen as hypocritical....


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## Gramsci (Nov 15, 2012)

jeremyclyne said:


> Just caught up with this thread.
> My Vassall ward colleague Cllr Steve Bradley has put down this motion for next week's Lambeth Full Council meeting:
> 
> _Brixton Recreation Centre_
> ...


 
Is that the meeting on the 21st? As I am having trouble finding full details of this motion and amendments on lambeth website.

if it is it looks like its under Item 8 Notices of Motion. Cannot access the PDF from the computer I am on. Will do later.


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## Gramsci (Nov 15, 2012)

Found it here


It is full Council Meeting on the 21st November


Motion 4: Councillor Steve Bradley (LD)
Brixton Recreation Centre
Council recognises the importance of the Brixton Recreation Centre in
transforming the lives of all local residents. Council is concerned that having
only recently invested over £3m in the Brixton Recreation Centre the
Administration is proposing demolition of the leisure centre.
Council calls upon the Labour Cabinet to ensure that all users of the Brixton
Recreation Centre are properly consulted about their needs and requirements
before any irrevocable decision is made and that a commitment is made
immediately and publicly that any replacement leisure facility - if this is what is
decided - will be a like for like replacement or better in terms of size and
facilities.

Amendment 1: Councillor Sally Prentice (Labour)

Council recognises the importance of the Brixton Recreation Centre in
transforming the lives of all local residents. *Council notes that no decisions*
*have been made about the Brixton Recreation Centre and that there will*
*not be any **changes without the full involvement of the community.*
Council is concerned that having only recently *This Administration* invested
over £3m in the Brixton Recreation Centre the Administration is proposing
demolition of the leisure centre.

Council calls upon the Labour Cabinet to ensure that all Users of the Brixton
Recreation Centre, *and the local community will be* are properly consulted
about their needs and requirements before any irrevocable decision is made
and that a commitment is made immediately and publicly that any
replacement leisure facility - if this is what is decided - will be a like for like
replacement or better in terms of size and facilities. *Council has no intention*
*of leaving Brixton without a leisure centre.*

*This Labour Administration is committed to investing in affordable*
*sports and leisure for the whole community. Council notes that the new*
*Clapham Leisure Centre opened earlier this year, and a brand new*
*leisure and health centre is being built in West Norwood and as well as a*
*new ice rink and leisure centre in Streatham. Together this is a fantastic*
*legacy for our community.*


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## Gramsci (Nov 15, 2012)

I must say the amendment by Cllr Sally Prentice is annoying.

Whatever one thinks of LDs and the Rec Cllr Bradley at least said there should be like for like and Prentice amendment removes that.

Nor does Cllr Prentice as a Labour Party member explain why they vociferously criticised the LD/ Tory administration when they were going to get rid of Rec. Her amendment is hardly a guarantee of the Rec future or even a Rec of same size.

BTW Steve if ur looking at this thread thanks for putting this motion up.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 16, 2012)

Yep, it's a terrible amendment and shows up the Labour group for their real intentions.


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## editor (Nov 19, 2012)

Does anyone know abut a meeting tomorrow at the rec?


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## gaijingirl (Nov 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Does anyone know abut a meeting tomorrow at the rec?


 
yes details are further up in this thread

(quoted below)


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## gaijingirl (Nov 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> *The next all user/supporter meeting is on*
> *TUESDAY 20 NOVEMBER* 6PM in the Rec social room on level 5.


 
voila..


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## editor (Nov 19, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> yes details are further up in this thread
> 
> (quoted below)


Cheers. I got a second hand message that this was also about the Barrier Block too, so I'm naturally veh interested.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Cheers. I got a second hand message that this was also about the Barrier Block too, so I'm naturally veh interested.


 
what? really?  that seems a bit odd ....


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## boohoo (Nov 19, 2012)

Could be to do with the protection of the building  (20th Century Society) as both were built at similar times in similar styles.


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## leanderman (Nov 20, 2012)

For all its flaws, the Rec is wonderfully large, it occurred to me on Saturday.


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## lang rabbie (Nov 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'd love to get my hands on a set of architectural floor plans for the rec. Wouldn't mind having a go at designing an improved entrance either


 
The rumour I heard was that these were one of the sets of drawings that went missing (assumed dumped in skip by office junior) when the council vacated their former offices at Courtenay House in New Park Road about ten years ago.


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> The rumour I heard was that these were one of the sets of drawings that went missing (assumed dumped in skip by office junior) when the council vacated their former offices at Courtenay House in New Park Road about ten years ago.


You've got to be fucking kidding me >_<


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## Greebo (Nov 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> You've got to be fucking kidding me >_<


This is Lambeth, therefore I don't find it improbable.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2012)

Well attended meeting last night at the Rec. A few new interesting titbits of information, which will be useful ammunition should the Council press ahead with this bonkers plan. A few of the traders who run shops on the ground floor of the building were there and were particularly upset at the threat to the Rec, and one said rents were rising.

BRUG are meeting Lib Peck, Labour Cabinet lead on Regeneration (and leader-elect of the entire Council, should Steve Reed win the Croydon North by-election) to discuss everything in more detail. The next key date is 17 December when the full Lambeth Cabinet will meet to discuss and possibly approve the planning document which will go to consultation in the new year. We hope the document which goes to that meeting does not suggest knocking down the Rec...we'll find out around the 10th December when the papers get published.

In the meantime I think there are two things people can do at the moment if they are so inclined:

1 - If you haven't already done so, write to the council (Lib Peck, copied to your local councillors - contact details here, more info here)

2 - Tell your friends, family, colleagues, neighbours there is a threat that the Rec will be knocked down and sold to a property developer. Getting the word out in the community on this is essential.

If anyone wants some leaflets to give out to friends/family/colleagues etc, there are some in the 'All Eyes on Egipt' shop at 25 Brixton Station Road (under the Rec.)


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2012)

editor said:


> Cheers. I got a second hand message that this was also about the Barrier Block too, so I'm naturally veh interested.


No mention of the Barrier Block. Although some of our discussion was around how Lambeth seems to want to sell/redevelop most of its property assets.


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## quimcunx (Nov 21, 2012)

So Sally Prentice amended that document from 'like for like' to 'not leaving us without a leisure centre'?  

Which could be a half size swimming pool, a gym and one room for classes  a mile away from the town centre?  Not very reassuring.


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## editor (Nov 21, 2012)

Update:



> Dear Future Brixton mailing list
> 
> *Brixton Rec – the future*
> There has been speculation in the local press that the Brixton Recreation Centre could be replaced by a new leisure centre in the future. However, no decisions have been made and there will not be any changes without fully involving local residents and Brixton Recreation Centre users.
> ...


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## editor (Nov 21, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> No mention of the Barrier Block. Although some of our discussion was around how Lambeth seems to want to sell/redevelop most of its property assets.


This is _exactly_ the sort of language we've heard about out block from the council: "...because of this, the SPD considers whether it may be possible to improve [the Barrier Block] or even replace it with a brand new [housing] in the heart of Brixton. Of course we would want you to help shape these options..."


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2012)

editor said:


> This is _exactly_ the sort of language we've heard about out block from the council: "...because of this, the SPD considers whether it may be possible to improve [the Barrier Block] or even replace it with a brand new [housing] in the heart of Brixton. Of course we would want you to help shape these options..."


"And of course, no decisions have been made yet, we going to consult the community, cooperative council, blah blah blah..."

The Council's intentions are writ large all the way through the draft SPD document: SELL EVERYTHING. BUILD NEW SHINY STUFF.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> So Sally Prentice amended that document from 'like for like' to 'not leaving us without a leisure centre'?
> 
> Which could be a half size swimming pool, a gym and one room for classes a mile away from the town centre? Not very reassuring.


We're going to get lots of stuff from the Council along the lines of "we want _improved_ leisure facilities..." but you literally _cannot_ improve on the Rec by building it elsewhere. It's impossible.


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## quimcunx (Nov 21, 2012)

Yep, I was saying that upthread.  The equivalent of the investment put into building such a large and ambitious building as the Rec will not be found again, not in a climate of private public partnership type affairs.  The private sector's aim is to optimise profit not serve the community.  Even if the council have the will to provide something as good they will be fucked over.


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## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2012)

One important point that came up at the meeting last night ( pointed out by the always knowledgeable Brixton Society who attended) of BRUG was that Lambeth "Core Strategy" protects the Rec. The "Core Strategy"is above the SPD for Brixton in planning terms. It has also been formally agreed. So if the draft SPD continues with saying that an option for demolishing present Rec then it will contradict the Core Strategy document. As the Core Strategy is above the SPD in importance the SPD should , in planning terms, be consistent with it.

The relevant policy is PN3- Brixton on page 74.





> Policy PN3 – Brixton
> 
> Brixton’s role as a distinctive major multicultural and diverse town centre will be safeguarded and promoted through careful and sensitive regeneration, recognising its local heritage and historic built environment with a specific focus on different character areas, and supporting the ‘One Planet Living’
> framework to inspire sustainable development together with major opportunities for new development.
> ...


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## quimcunx (Nov 21, 2012)

And what would have to happen for that to be changed?


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## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> And what would have to happen for that to be changed?


 
Good question. I do not know. Will try to find out.


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## Gramsci (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> This is _exactly_ the sort of language we've heard about out block from the council: "...because of this, the SPD considers whether it may be possible to improve [the Barrier Block] or even replace it with a brand new [housing] in the heart of Brixton. Of course we would want you to help shape these options..."


 
Yes it is exactly the same. Its a bit depressing after all the good words in the Brixton Masterplan and the "Cooperative Council" that this language is being used.

This is the Labour party doing this. I thought Ed Miliband was supposed to want the Labour party to connect to grass roots in communities. Ive now been to a couple of BRUG meetings. The people there are a cross section of the kind of people that a Labour party should be interested in. Instead people find themselves in opposition to the Labour machine in Lambeth. The bigger picture is what is the Labour party in Lambeth playing at ? Ed said New Labour was finished. 

Just read this on Eds new advisor





> the Labourleader asked him to conduct a root-and-branch review of the party, with an eye to revitalising it across the country. Graf's report was never published, and he remains influential but near invisible to those outside Labour's inner circle.
> To understand Graf's role, it is important to understand the problem he is trying to fix. Labour is fighting to represent a country of some 60 million people, but it has just 200,000 members. The party looks too much like a narrow group of people only interested in office, and it risks losing its connection with the vast majority of working and non-working people. Without members, the analysis goes, the party is hollow, and it cannot win.


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## fortyplus (Nov 22, 2012)

Sally Prentice sold us down the river to Tesco over the ice-rink, she and Steve Reed are a noxious combination.  With luck we'll get rid of Reed to Croydon, but we'll be stuck with Prentice. She's my councillor and Labour get in here whatever happens. She's the worst of nu-labour, believing that all local people want is more caring corporations to take their money. Anyway, she's got her cheese shop in the market.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Anyway, she's got her cheese shop in the market.


Really? Does she own Cannon & Cannon?


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> And what would have to happen for that to be changed?


Yes, good question. The guy from the Brixton Society made some very good points, including the fact that the draft SPD is a mess in planning terms because it's full of 'ifs', 'buts' and 'maybes' - you can't have a planning document which isn't absolutely clear on major decisions (like the Rec.) It also contradicts the Lambeth Core Strategy, which makes a mockery of the formal planning machinery if the SPD stays as it is.

Zoe from the Brixton Blog made a very good point that she had interviewed Lib Peck in the summer (June or July - _before_ the public Future Brixton consultations) where she had mentioned the possibility of the Rec being replaced, which demonstrates that the idea was definitely around in Labour circles before the Council starting talking to (some) residents. If you consult residents and ask "do you want improved leisure facilities?" it's very unlikely that anyone would say 'no', so the council have pre-prepared consultation responses backing up their view that 'things need to be improved'. It's so obvious what is happening here. We must stop them.


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## Brixton Blog (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Zoe from the Brixton Blog made a very good point that she had interviewed Lib Peck in the summer (June or July - _before_ the public Future Brixton consultations) where she had mentioned the possibility of the Rec being replaced, which demonstrates that the idea was definitely around in Labour circles before the Council starting talking to (some) residents. If you consult residents and ask "do you want improved leisure facilities?" it's very unlikely that anyone would say 'no', so the council have pre-prepared consultation responses backing up their view that 'things need to be improved'. It's so obvious what is happening here. We must stop them.


 
Just to expand on Brixton Hatter's point - I interviewed Lib on July 3 about 'Future Brixton' generally. I believe this was after the first workshop had happened but was certainly before most of the consultation. Bill and others said at the meeting on Wednesday that the Rec wasn't mentioned at workshops until the final workshop. I asked Cllr Peck if council officers had come up with specific models yet for Future Brixton and she said (from my transcription):
"In the workshops, we start off with the principles to kick start the discussion. The discussions that I've been involved with so far really highlight the importance of trying to improve linkages around the town centre...a recognition that the Rec as it is, isn't - and this is very much based on very early ideas - the Rec could definitely have things doing to it. If you're a family you're confronted by big stairs to get people into it."

And later asked on how the council would be able to fund any Future Brixton changes:
"A principle we’ve gone in with with the masterplan is that we would use some of the assets of our town centre to advance the aspirations articulated by the masterplan.For example, if there was a decision to buy the market area or an idea to completely rebuild the rec, we would have to find the resources within the assets that we’ve got to be able to fund something like that. We’d have to sell something else – we’d have to make sure that the plans stacked up financially without any external funding."

We'll be putting a news piece up to update on the situation after the BRUG meeting - I had to leave early unfortunately, so if you see any gaping holes in the report, do say, though I think I was there for the key part!


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> Just to expand on Brixton Hatter's point - I interviewed Lib on July 3 about 'Future Brixton' generally....


Thanks for that - really helpful


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## gaijingirl (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> If you're a family you're confronted by big stairs to get people into it."


 
(not aimed at you in particular - just a general comment)

but that's simply not true - there's the much maligned ramp.  The Rec is one of the more accessible leisure centres if you have a family.. try getting from the bus stop to Crystal Palace sports centre with a pram!  Try taking kids to Clapham for a swim.  The most annoying thing about Brixton Rec from a family point of view is there not being a loo on the same level as soft play.


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## brixtonscot (Nov 22, 2012)

Does anybody know the views of GLL/Better management who run the Rec ?
And/or the Rec staff , particularly if they have any trade union representation or support which maybe could be utilised ?


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## Greebo (Nov 22, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> <snip>there's the much maligned ramp. The Rec is one of the more accessible leisure centres if you have a family.. <snip>


Tbf if you haven't been there before, the Rec's ramp entrance is pretty easy to miss.  Yes, there are signs in its general direction, but there isn't one at the actual opening.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 22, 2012)

brixtonscot said:


> Does anybody know the views of GLL/Better management who run the Rec ?
> And/or the Rec staff , particularly if they have any trade union representation or support which maybe could be utilised ?


 

I've spoken to some Rec staff about it who had some interesting things to say, but I don't want to post anything online about that.  It's a good point you raise though..


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## gaijingirl (Nov 22, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Tbf if you haven't been there before, the Rec's ramp entrance is pretty easy to miss. Yes, there are signs in its general direction, but there isn't one at the actual opening.


 
... but if you're a cllr giving a interview on the viability of the Rec, you really ought to know that sort of information!

...and it is an easy problem to solve.


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## boohoo (Nov 22, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> (not aimed at you in particular - just a general comment)
> 
> but that's simply not true - there's the much maligned ramp. The Rec is one of the more accessible leisure centres if you have a family.. try getting from the bus stop to Crystal Palace sports centre with a pram! Try taking kids to Clapham for a swim. The most annoying thing about Brixton Rec from a family point of view is there not being a loo on the same level as soft play.


 
Crystal palace sports centre with a pram is a nightmare to get too!  I can see the building - just how do I get to it without meeting some steps!


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## gaijingirl (Nov 22, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Crystal palace sports centre with a pram is a nightmare to get too!  I can see the building - just how do I get to it without meeting some steps!


 
we had a complete meltdown with that this summer, and I know it quite well - it would be impossible in a wheelchair.


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## Brixton Blog (Nov 22, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> (not aimed at you in particular - just a general comment)
> 
> but that's simply not true - there's the much maligned ramp. The Rec is one of the more accessible leisure centres if you have a family.. try getting from the bus stop to Crystal Palace sports centre with a pram! Try taking kids to Clapham for a swim. The most annoying thing about Brixton Rec from a family point of view is there not being a loo on the same level as soft play.


 
as a child, the ramp was pretty much the most fun thing in the Rec to run up and down...


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## gaijingirl (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> as a child, the ramp was pretty much the most fun thing in the Rec to run up and down...


 
exactly this - my toddler LOVES racing me and the pram up and down there.. looking in at the other kids playing football etc.


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

Got this tweet from Lambeth Council:


> *Lambeth Council @lambeth_council*
> @brixtonbuzz No plan to demolish Brixton Rec. We want better leisure facilities in Brixton and will work with community on how to do this


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## Manter (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> Got this tweet from Lambeth Council:


Take a screenshot!


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## Frumious B. (Nov 22, 2012)

Hooray! Is this a positive start to Lib Peck's term? Or just more smoke and mirrors from the Sally Prentice camp?


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## quimcunx (Nov 22, 2012)

It doesn't mean anything.


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## Gramsci (Nov 22, 2012)

brixtonscot said:


> Does anybody know the views of GLL/Better management who run the Rec ?
> And/or the Rec staff , particularly if they have any trade union representation or support which maybe could be utilised ?


 
I wrote notes during meeting. Need to write them up.

The Rec staff look at BRUG noticeboard to see what is happening. I do not know if they have TU. At moment relationships between BRUG and GLL mage is cordial. GLL are stuck in the middle of this. So perhaps not good idea to try to make them take sides. Its between residents and Council.

From what I remember of meeting, without my notes,  it was reported that the BRUG committee met GLL . GLL do not see any major maintenance issues that they cannot deal with in the future.

The issue of the lighting is being looked into by GLL. They are looking into redoing lighting outside.

The pool does not have serious leaks. The worst leaks were from the waste pipes/ internal plumbing. Not pool. These have been rectified when changing areas were refurbished. Sport London put up money for this.

Which leaves the issue of the Council saying that one of the problems with the Rec is the high maintenance costs in the future. This now appears to be an assertion.

GLL are staying agnostic on this issue. The Council have not said anything to them about it. All they are saying is that the Rec is well used and the money they bring is used for maintenance budget.


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## Gramsci (Nov 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Hooray! Is this a positive start to Lib Peck's term? Or just more smoke and mirrors from the Sally Prentice camp?


 
Its what they keep saying "no plans". All that means is that they are thinking about it. Or refuse to say. Its smoke and mirrors.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

brixtonscot said:


> Does anybody know the views of GLL/Better management who run the Rec ?
> And/or the Rec staff , particularly if they have any trade union representation or support which maybe could be utilised ?





Gramsci said:


> GLL are staying agnostic on this issue. The Council have not said anything to them about it. All they are saying is that the Rec is well used and the money they bring is used for maintenance budget.


Yes, that's my recollection too - that GLL were staying neutral on the issue. Although they (GLL) had said that they had a budget for maintenance and didn't see any problems with maintenance in the future.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> Got this tweet from Lambeth Council:


Interesting. Especially since the BRUG committee met with Lib Peck last night. But I won't believe anything until I see retention of the Rec formally written into the SPD which gets published for consultation in the new year.


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## fortyplus (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Really? Does she own Cannon & Cannon?


No... she was the one who said , during the ice-rink "consultation", - and I paraphrase -   that  the market really needed a cheese-shop and not all these frightful ethnic shops that people needed parking for, especially as tesco has a ghetto section selling big bags of rice even cheaper...   She was rightly abused for it.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> No... she was the one who said , during the ice-rink "consultation", - and I paraphrase - that the market really needed a cheese-shop and not all these frightful ethnic shops that people needed parking for, especially as tesco has a ghetto section selling big bags of rice even cheaper... She was rightly abused for it.


Ah, I see! Cheers 

Fucking terrible comment from Sally Prentice. She's like the white Lee Japser!


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## colacubes (Nov 22, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> No... she was the one who said , during the ice-rink "consultation", - and I paraphrase - that the market really needed a cheese-shop and not all these frightful ethnic shops that people needed parking for, especially as tesco has a ghetto section selling big bags of rice even cheaper... She was rightly abused for it.


 
Quite so.  I was at the meeting where she said it and my jaw almost hit the floor.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> She's like the white Lee Japser!


 
Possibly the worst insult ever devised!  It's right up there with "your mother was a hampster and your father smells of elderberries".


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## Frumious B. (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> if there was a decision to buy the market area or an idea to completely rebuild the rec, we would have to find the resources within the assets that we’ve got to be able to fund something like that.


 
This sort of thinking is so disgustingly undemocratic and destructive that anyone who supports it should have a lifetime ban from public service. Who the hell do these people think they are? Where do they get this manic appetite for flattening the best loved buildings in our community and turning Brixton into another Milton Keynes? Are they just frustrated urban planners? Failed architects? Power-crazed lunatics? Or crooks looking for backhanders from developers?  Why can't they get their priorities right by building and repairing social housing? (And what have they done with the cash they got from forcing squatters out of the best housing stock in the borough and selling it to the private sector for flats we can't afford to live in?)

How did we end up entrusting our surroundings to these criminals, these vandals? A while back I read a big fat document about Future Brixton or something - I found it when reading up about the redevelopment of Windrush Square. It was quite hilarious - dripping with hatred of the railway lines which present such 'obstacles' to their plans to erase all the shops in the arches. We really ought to have a new annual party - Brixton Railway Day - when we toast the Victorian engineers who built us such solid defences against Loony Lambeth.


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## Manter (Nov 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> This sort of thinking is so disgustingly undemocratic and destructive that anyone who supports it should have a lifetime ban from public service. Who the hell do these people think they are? Where do they get this manic appetite for flattening the best loved buildings in our community and turning Brixton into another Milton Keynes? Are they just frustrated urban planners? Failed architects? Power-crazed lunatics? Or crooks looking for backhanders from developers? Why can't they get their priorities right by building and repairing social housing? (And what have they done with the cash they got from forcing squatters out of the best housing stock in the borough and selling it to the private sector for flats we can't afford to live in?)
> 
> How did we end up entrusting our surroundings to these criminals, these vandals? A while back I read a big fat document about Future Brixton or something - I found it when reading up about the redevelopment of Windrush Square. It was quite hilarious - dripping with hatred of the railway lines which present such 'obstacles' to their plans to erase all the shops in the arches. We really ought to have a new annual party - Brixton Railway Day - when we toast the Victorian engineers who built us such solid defences against Loony Lambeth.


I completely agree.  How are arches a bad thing?  how are buildings (and people!) with personality a bad thing?


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> This sort of thinking is so disgustingly undemocratic and destructive that anyone who supports it should have a lifetime ban from public service. Who the hell do these people think they are? Where do they get this manic appetite for flattening the best loved buildings in our community and turning Brixton into another Milton Keynes? Are they just frustrated urban planners? Failed architects? Power-crazed lunatics? Or crooks looking for backhanders from developers? Why can't they get their priorities right by building and repairing social housing? (And what have they done with the cash they got from forcing squatters out of the best housing stock in the borough and selling it to the private sector for flats we can't afford to live in?)
> 
> How did we end up entrusting our surroundings to these criminals, these vandals? A while back I read a big fat document about Future Brixton or something - I found it when reading up about the redevelopment of Windrush Square. It was quite hilarious - dripping with hatred of the railway lines which present such 'obstacles' to their plans to erase all the shops in the arches. We really ought to have a new annual party - Brixton Railway Day - when we toast the Victorian engineers who built us such solid defences against Loony Lambeth.


Your post is so full of win


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## brixtonscot (Nov 22, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The Rec staff look at BRUG noticeboard to see what is happening. I do not know if they have TU. At moment relationships between BRUG and GLL mage is cordial. GLL are stuck in the middle of this. So perhaps not good idea to try to make them take sides. Its between residents and Council.


 
Thanks for reply Gramsci.

It might of interest to know details of contract between LBL & GLL for running Rec , and how any proposals may effect that. Presumably GLL management do have some interest in any possible outcome.

Also Rec staff also have interest in the future prospects for their jobs. Understandably they might not want to speak out individually - but if they have any TU representation that could speak on their behalf.


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## Gramsci (Nov 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> How did we end up entrusting our surroundings to these criminals, these vandals? A while back I read a big fat document about Future Brixton or something - I found it when reading up about the redevelopment of Windrush Square. It was quite hilarious - dripping with hatred of the railway lines which present such 'obstacles' to their plans to erase all the shops in the arches. We really ought to have a new annual party - Brixton Railway Day - when we toast the Victorian engineers who built us such solid defences against Loony Lambeth.


 
I do not entirely agree with this. If the document you are talking about is the Brixton Masterplan. Then its not a bad document. A lot of time was spent consulting people about it.

Opening up some of the arches is not necessarily a bad idea. That does not mean I want Council housing and the Rec got rid of.

The problem is keeping the (Labour) Council to its word. As stated in the Brixton Masterplan and the Lambeth Core Strategy. Both the Brixton Masterplan and the Core Strategy see the importance of the Rec as part of Brixton.

Also the importance of enabling and supporting people in local communities to further the aims of the Masteplan. Which , from what I have seen, the reformed BRUG want to do. They are willing to engage with the Council to improve the Rec short term. And be involved in the future in it improvement following the Masterplan for Brixton. The Council should be criticised for showing signs of not keeping to what they said they were going to do.

Also keeping the Council to its word about the Co-operative Council.


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## happyshopper (Nov 22, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> No... she was the one who said , during the ice-rink "consultation", - and I paraphrase - that the market really needed a cheese-shop and not all these frightful ethnic shops that people needed parking for, especially as tesco has a ghetto section selling big bags of rice even cheaper... She was rightly abused for it.


 
Did Sally Prentice actually say "frightful ethnic shops" or are these words you've put into her mouth as part of your paraphrase?


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## Gramsci (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> Just to expand on Brixton Hatter's point - I interviewed Lib on July 3 about 'Future Brixton' generally. I believe this was after the first workshop had happened but was certainly before most of the consultation. Bill and others said at the meeting on Wednesday that the Rec wasn't mentioned at workshops until the final workshop.


 
It was in the draft consultation SPD written under name of consultants. Which , if I remember correctly , was on the google doc before meeting. The google doc had been brief summary then this was later filled out for comments.

So the Rec was discussed at that last meeting. I was there. There are no notes of that meeting apart from the ones I took. There is slide of the presentation of the meeting which is online.

Some of us had asked for more info and records online of what was said and what was presented to people. Well this was a start. Without it I do not think this issue of the Rec would have been more widely known.

It was discussed at that last meeting at length. As those present realised that the Council were considering this as serious option. My feeling after the meeting was that this was more serious than I had thought. It was more than the Council responding to peoples comments about the dark entrance etc.

To be honest the whole thing is starting to piss me off. Its clear to me , whatever the Council say, that this is option that the Council would like to pursue long term. The minutiae of when and who said what is a bit beside the point.

Though I have been criticised for "speculation" like the unnamed "media speculation" that Future Brixton and Labour Cllrs go on about.

*There is one simple way to go from arguing who said what , when and what they meant. The Council could clear this up by issuing statement that the wording of the draft SPD for formal consultation will follow the Brixton Masterplan and Lambeth Core Strategy in keeping the Rec. That they have not says to me that the substance of "speculation" by media (Brixton Blog) and me is correct.*

Also it was Brixton Blog article on Rec that first alerted the Rec users about this. I was told this myself. So it to credit of Brixton Blog for reporting it. Despite the abuse they have got from Future Brixton/ Council referring to it as "speculation". I have re read BB coverage of this subject and its accurate and not "speculation".

The Council have well paid desk jockeys who do there communications / PR for them. The people have to rely on mainly unpaid work of volunteers in BB , BRUG and Urban75. It so annoys me that this is how it has to work.


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## fortyplus (Nov 22, 2012)

happyshopper said:


> Did Sally Prentice actually say "frightful ethnic shops" or are these words you've put into her mouth as part of your paraphrase?


of course she didn't. It's the cheese-shop that the occasion is remembered for; had she actually used those words, it would have been plebgate in spades.  I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## Gramsci (Nov 23, 2012)

A few notes of the meeting:


Notes on BRUG meeting Wednesday 21st November 2012

Report from BRUG committee

So far the Cllrs have not discussed the SPD.

Monday 10th December Cllr Lib Peck has agreed to attend BRUG open meeting to answer questions.

Monday 17th December. Cabinet meeting of Council. Papers for the meeting should be available online a week before. The draft SPD for formal consultation should be presented to this meeting.

....................................................................................................................................................................

BRUG have met Greenwich Leisure. They have said that they are responsible for all maintenance. This is built into there business plan. There are no foreseeable maintenance problems that they cannot deal with. The Council are not responsible for the maintenance.

There is a lot of disinformation floating around. There are not swimming pool leaks due to the pool being up on first floor. There were leaks due to plumbing which have been dealt with when the changing rooms were refurbished. Sport England put up the money to refurbish the changing rooms. Also the Council put in £3 and a half million to refurbish Rec.

The Rec was always meant to be a family oriented centre with lots of activities. The pool is unique.

In the meeting of BRUG committee with Greenwich Leisure GLL refuted the idea that the Brixton Rec was underused.

GLL said they had electrical contractor looking at the lighting at front of building to see how it can be improved.

If a new Rec was built going on what has happened in Clapham it would provide basic facilities but not the range that the Brixton Rec could provide.

The staff of Rec have not been informed of the issue of the SPD

Greenwich leisure are staying neutral on this subject.

....................................................................................................................................................................

A member of Brixton Society attended to explain more about the planning process.

Lambeth has a Core Strategy. This was formally adopted in 2011. It sets down the big strategic objectives for the borough.

The Supplementary Planning Document comes below the CS. It set out detail for smaller areas in the borough like Brixton.

The recent consultation on SPD for Brixton was done by the Council in conjunction with consultants they hired. This was series of meetings. This led to a working draft document to comment on about the SPD. This was for consultation and not approved by Council.

The next thing is for planning officers to write a SPD for Brixton. This will be recommended to Cabinet by officers. If approved by Cabinet it will go out for formal consultation early next year.

In the Lambeth Core Strategy Policy PN3 point E the Rec is mentioned and is kept.

There is also possibility of a Brixton Neighbourhood plan. This would take some time to do as it has to be done more on a voluntary basis with some Council practical support. A Neighbourhood plan must also be consistent with Borough plan.

At moment the draft consultation working draft is a mess in planning terms. It is full of ifs and buts. Instead it needs to be clear on what is wanted. The SPD , when finished, will be the planning document that will be referred to when planning developments. So it needs to be clear.

....................................................................................................................................................................

There was then more general discussion. Here are some comments.


The 20C Society are looking at Rec but this is ongoing so will take time.

The Rec is structurally sound. There is the green issue of the embedded energy in it that will be released if demolished.

The BRUG committee will be meeting Cllr Lib so asked for questions to ask her.

Someone said that there was a purpose built shooting range in the Rec that he had looked at and wanted to see if he could get used again. At moment its unused. Some parts are used for storage purposes.

Some people were not sure whether using a shooting range in Brixton was good idea.

The person interested in reopening it said he was going to meet community leaders to discuss this.

Someone asked why the Council thought a new Rec on the Ice Rink/ market car park site would be more used than this one?

Listing a building does not mean that altering it is not possible. It just makes changes more difficult. So it would still be possible to improve a building.

It is mistake to see Lambeth as having one mind. There are different views from officers and Cllrs. Some would like to see Brixton "tidied up". Some people , on the other hand, like the fact that Brixton is not like a tidy shopping mall.

There were several shopkeepers there. Some shopkeepers had been helping to give out leaflets about the Rec. Some attended the meeting. There are shops at ground level of Rec. At moment there is no shop keepers association unlike the market traders.

The shopkeepers were concerned about lack of parking due to loss of the car park. That the Council had indicated that the old car park site might be site for new Rec. So where would car parking for market go?

....................................................................................................................................................................

*At end of meeting it was said that people should keep emailing Cllrs. A lot of emails had been sent. This had been important in letting the Cllrs know the amount of feeling on the issue. It was also said that people could email Cllr Lib Peck and copy email to local ward Cllrs.*

Cllr Lib Peck is now acting leader of Labour group as Steve Reed may be a parliamentary candidate soon.


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## quimcunx (Nov 23, 2012)

Me and @fogbat might be interested in the shooting range.   

Is listing a possibility then?  A unique swimming pool might be an angle. 

So you say Clapham got a scaled down facility on what they had before?  Quelle surprise. 

Um, surely the old car park site should be used as the new car park site.


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## leanderman (Nov 23, 2012)

So, is there actually a definite plan to demolish the Rec? Or not?


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## Frumious B. (Nov 23, 2012)

There's the rub. There is a proposal. But there is no democratically agreed commitment to approve the proposal and execute any resulting plan. Yet. The worrying thing is that there is an intention by certain parties to push for it.


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## Gramsci (Nov 23, 2012)

leanderman said:


> So, is there actually a definite plan to demolish the Rec? Or not?


 
The Council will not say either way. As I have already posted both the Brixton Masterplan and Lambeth Core Strategy retain Rec

In the SPD consultation the Council decided to discuss replacing it. 




> There has been speculation in the local press that Brixton Recreation Centre could be replaced by a new leisure centre in the future.
> The story came about because Lambeth Council is currently consulting with local people on a new document that sets out what Brixton could look like over the next 10 to 15 years, what sort of changes local people and the council would like to see in the area, and what opportunities there might be to improve the town.
> One of the things the document (called a supplementary planning document or SPD) considers is whether it may be possible to improve Brixton Recreation Centre or even replace it with a brand new 21st century leisure centre providing state of the art sports facilities in the heart of Brixton.
> 
> It is very early days but the council is keen to gather as many views from local people about this,


 
Council statement

So there is no definite plan. But as the statement by Lambeth says it is something they are "considering" and they are "keen" to gather views on this.

So the Cllrs have been getting "views" of local people by email. 

The whole tone of the statement is to get one to think a bright shiny 21st C centre would be better than present Rec.


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## Gramsci (Nov 23, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Sally Prentice sold us down the river to Tesco over the ice-rink, she and Steve Reed are a noxious combination. With luck we'll get rid of Reed to Croydon, but we'll be stuck with Prentice. She's my councillor and Labour get in here whatever happens. She's the worst of nu-labour, believing that all local people want is more caring corporations to take their money. Anyway, she's got her cheese shop in the market.


 
She used to be a LD. 

According to her:



> A Co-operative Council seeks to do things with its community rather than do things to the community.  At its heart, the Co-operative Council is about working with residents, community groups, social enterprises and local businesses,


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## Frumious B. (Nov 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> better than the present Rec.


Which they would have us believe is not fit for purpose because the architect designed it as a shopping centre and then hastily substituted a pool and a gym for the shop units.


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## Gramsci (Nov 23, 2012)

editor said:


> This is _exactly_ the sort of language we've heard about out block from the council: "...because of this, the SPD considers whether it may be possible to improve [the Barrier Block] or even replace it with a brand new [housing] in the heart of Brixton. Of course we would want you to help shape these options..."


 
Unlike the Rec the Barrier Block is not mentioned in the Core Strategy document.


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## quimcunx (Nov 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> the ''commitment to any replacement, if that should be the decision, being* like for like or better in terms of size and facilities'' need to be etched on a* *large stone tablet, and if it's not adhered to dropped on the head of whoever is responsible. *
> 
> If you can't give us something better, and you can't - as it would be prohibitively expensive, the council would not be able to get the funding itself and any 'collaboration' or trade-off with the private sector would result in something smaller, cheaper, with fewer facilities in order to maximise their profits - then we'll keep the rec we've got thank you very much.


 
Sally Prentice did you say the name was of the person who scored out 'like for like'?


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## happyshopper (Nov 23, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> ... the architect designed it as a shopping centre and then hastily substituted a pool and a gym for the shop units.


 
This is simply untrue. It was designed in the 1970s as part of what was expected to be a wider redevelopment of Brixton town centre, hence the high level walkways that lead nowhere, but it was always meant to be a state of the art recreation centre. It doesn't have the slightest resemblance to a 1970s shopping centre.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 23, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Which they would have us believe is not fit for purpose because the architect designed it as a shopping centre and then hastily substituted a pool and a gym for the shop units.


That's an urban myth. Not true at all. We discussed it at the meeting on Tuesday. 

As Gramsci said, there's a lot of disinformation around. We're gonna get lots of bollocks like this coming up: "it's too old" (it isn't), "there's leaks in the pool" (they're aren't), "such and such a machine is broken" (it can be fixed) and so on.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 23, 2012)

Somebody needs to be putting all this stuff on the BRUG Facebook page. I nominate you.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 23, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Somebody needs to be putting all this stuff on the BRUG Facebook page. I nominate you.


Heh  ....I don't really put public stuff on facebook using my personal account.

However, there are several really good resources to complement the BRUG facebook page (which is www.facebook.com/brixtonrecusersgroup)

 - www.savebrixtonrec.wordpress.com is the campaign site.

 - www.brixtonrec-usergroup.co.uk is the BRUG's own website

 - www.twitter.com/savebrixtonrec


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 23, 2012)

@crispy Just noticed there's a few of the architect's drawings here if you're interested: http://www.brixtonrec-usergroup.co.uk/#/history/4570758478


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## Crispy (Nov 23, 2012)

Yeah I saw those and while they're interesting, I'd kill for large-scale (1 to 100 or 200) floor plans.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Yeah I saw those and while they're interesting, I'd kill for large-scale (1 to 100 or 200) floor plans.


might be worth contacting the BRUG committee - they might know.


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## Gramsci (Nov 24, 2012)

​*C20 backs local campaign to save Brixton Rec*​ 
*19/11/12 by catherine croft*​ 
Laura Chan reports on the threat to the Brixton Recreation Centre: ‘The Brixton Recreation Centre, owned by Lambeth Council, is under threat of demolition to allow redevelopment of its site. A campaign to save ‘The Rec’ (as it’s lovingly known to locals) is in full swing, as users meet regularly to discuss what can be done to save the iconic leisure centre.​At a recent meeting held at the Rec, I was heartened to hear many impassioned users of the centre say how much they value it, praising, its swimming pool, climbing wall, gym and other sporting facilities, and also valuing it as a place to meet and as a local focus Attendees were encouraged to contact their councillors and ask them to support retention. C20 Society is backing the campaign.​Designed by George Finch (working for Lambeth Architect’s Department) in the late seventies, I was struck by how “Herman Hertzberger-ish” the building feels. If the interior planters which line the main atrium on all floors were used (they stand sadly empty now), the sense of accessibility and warmth of this much loved building will only increase. It’s generally well maintained and in good condition, with a major investment in the lighting scheme shown above recently completed. With its exposed walkways at all levels, activities such as judo and bowls can be seen from the upper levels. An unusual swimming experience is created by the undulating timber ceiling and large windows that allow swimmers to see trains go by.​Architecturally interesting in its waffle slab ceiling construction, steel truss roof and a feeling of openness throughout, the Rec does more than serve its function as a leisure centre. Rec user Julian Cripps, member of a local practice, says of the building: “The Rec was the result of an extended design development period that modern architects would only now dream of… The Rec is not only an unrepeatable asset in brick and concrete but, in the unique spaces and combination of provision. It has become a beacon of enlightened provision and symbolic of investment and regeneration of deprived city areas.”​Nelson Mandela visited the centre in 1996 where he and other dignitaries met to discuss schemes launched to regenerate the area after the 1985 riots. At the time Mr Mandela said: “I want to tell you that Britain, especially London and the community of Brixton, were the heartland of the anti-apartheid struggle.”​Speaking at the recent meeting, Steadman Scott confirmed: “This building means more to black people than anything else” – a strong statement that speaks of The Rec’s importance historically, socially and architecturally. Like the nearby Brixton Market buildings, recently listed for their significance to the local community, it is one of those places that really feels as if it belongs to the people who use it. It should certainly not be knocked down.’​Laura Chan​You can find out more about the campaign here and read the Save Brixton Rec blog here.​


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## Gramsci (Nov 25, 2012)

Got this today:

Dear Rec Supporter,
*NEXT USER MEETING AT THE REC MONDAY 10 DECEMBER 6.30PM. CLLRS LIB PECK AND SALLY PRENTICE (Cabinet members for regeneration and culture & leisure)will be attending to hear your views on the future of the Rec.*

(Cllr Lib Peck is now leader of Labour Group as Cllr Steve Reed is going to fight by election in Croydon)

Full information later this week.



Please help distribute leaflets outlining the threat to the Rec and what users can do. They are available from The Eyes of Egipt shop, Station Rd behind the Rec stairs 10-6, Mon-Sat or email your request to me to leave them on Rec reception for you.


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## Manter (Nov 25, 2012)

I was talking to a guy last night who lives (now) in Canada water and says he still comes back because fo the variety of facilities, value for money etc....  it is well known outside Brixton too


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## gaijingirl (Nov 27, 2012)

this basically sums up situation so far... what we've discussed so far here for anyone not wishing to read all 9 pages:

http://www.brixtonblog.com/lambethlabourrefusetobedrawn/8481


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## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)




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## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

I like the talking pigeons.


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## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Manter said:


> I was talking to a guy last night who lives (now) in Canada water and says he still comes back because fo the variety of facilities, value for money etc.... it is well known outside Brixton too


 
btw I did say that the times of meetings were not that good for a lot of people. This one is 6.30 which is a bit better. 

They might try to ask people what times are best.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I like the talking pigeons.


They won't be so chipper when the shooting club starts.


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## Manter (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> btw I did say that the times of meetings were not that good for a lot of people. This one is 6.30 which is a bit better.
> 
> They might try to ask people what times are best.


I have moved a meeting, so will be at this one....


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## gaijingirl (Nov 28, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> btw I did say that the times of meetings were not that good for a lot of people. This one is 6.30 which is a bit better.
> 
> They might try to ask people what times are best.


 
well for me it would be later - after 7:30pm realistically (and even that's at a push).  I imagine similar for @nagapie too.  

Can we hand out leaflets _inside _the Rec without there being some hoohaa.  Eg.. if I take my kids to soft play can I hand them out to the parents inside?  I can't think of any reason why not myself.


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## Winot (Nov 28, 2012)

I doubt the GLL staff will stop you.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 28, 2012)

@gaijingirl - just go for it. I doubt they will even notice.


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## leanderman (Nov 28, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> well for me it would be later - after 7:30pm realistically (and even that's at a push).  I imagine similar for @nagapie too.
> 
> Can we hand out leaflets _inside _the Rec without there being some hoohaa.  Eg.. if I take my kids to soft play can I hand them out to the parents inside?  I can't think of any reason why not myself.




it's unstaffed now, the play zone


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## gaijingirl (Nov 28, 2012)

leanderman said:


> it's unstaffed now, the play zone


 
sorry.. I didn't make myself clear... I was more worried about getting staff in the Rec in trouble rather than the staff in the Rec getting upset with me iyswim

(and btw.. although the soft play is "unmanned" there is a member of staff who I don't want to identify obviously, who comes in and out to check on things - specifically to see if anyone has left a pram in there - I particularly wouldn't want to get her in trouble for having "allowed" it to happen.)


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## gaijingirl (Nov 28, 2012)

anyway... I picked some leaflets up today and there is a list of people who have picked up and where they're going to deliver to.  So far they're really just being delivered to the market and shops, so I would urge people to come and pick up a few for their streets/neighbours - try to widen the net, so to speak.


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## Gramsci (Nov 29, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> sorry.. I didn't make myself clear... I was more worried about getting staff in the Rec in trouble rather than the staff in the Rec getting upset with me iyswim
> 
> (and btw.. although the soft play is "unmanned" there is a member of staff who I don't want to identify obviously, who comes in and out to check on things - specifically to see if anyone has left a pram in there - I particularly wouldn't want to get her in trouble for having "allowed" it to happen.)


 
It appears that it might be an issue. Someone said that last time the Rec was under threat they had to give out leaflets off Rec property. ie not on the entrance stairs. Im not clear whether this was the Council or GLL. At moment GLL are letting BRUG have noticeboard and hire rooms.


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## Gramsci (Nov 29, 2012)

the meeting on the 10th December is on level 5 of Rec


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## Gramsci (Nov 29, 2012)

Manter said:


> I have moved a meeting, so will be at this one....


 
I should be there. Be good to say hello.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> It appears that it might be an issue. Someone said that last time the Rec was under threat they had to give out leaflets off Rec property. ie not on the entrance stairs. Im not clear whether this was the Council or GLL. At moment GLL are letting BRUG have noticeboard and hire rooms.


 
yes, this is what I was worried about.  ok.. thanks.


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## Gramsci (Nov 30, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> yes, this is what I was worried about. ok.. thanks.


 
I reckon if ur chatting to people u know and give them leaflet thats ok. Its standing in there and handing them out to everyone who passed by that may cause staff and GLL/ Better a problem.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I reckon if ur chatting to people u know and give them leaflet thats ok. Its standing in there and handing them out to everyone who passed by that may cause staff and GLL/ Better a problem.


 
yeah.. I thought that might be the case.  No worries.


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## Smangus (Nov 30, 2012)

I coach at the fencing club there on the bowling green, on weds night there were a few people having a meeting and giving out leaflets inside, there didn't seem to be a problem with it. Plenty of users/parents picked them up.


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## Kutuzov (Nov 30, 2012)

Might be worth handing out some leaflets at the Winter Fair taking place tomorrow next to St Matthews Church.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 2, 2012)

There's also the FoBP winter fair next Sunday in the park... anyone going up to that?


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## Biddlybee (Dec 3, 2012)

I've hardly used the rec, but this meeting is open to the public yeh?


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## Gramsci (Dec 3, 2012)

Biddlybee said:


> I've hardly used the rec, but this meeting is open to the public yeh?


 
yes its for allcomers.


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## fortyplus (Dec 3, 2012)

Number One Brixton, perhaps  to rise from the ashes of the Rec?  

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6463


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## Manter (Dec 3, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Number One Brixton, perhaps  to rise from the ashes of the Rec?
> 
> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6463


Dear god please no


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 3, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Number One Brixton, perhaps to rise from the ashes of the Rec?
> 
> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6463


That's essentially what some Lambeth councillors want. Let's see how good their replacement leisure centre at the Elephant is....


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## Gramsci (Dec 9, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Number One Brixton, perhaps to rise from the ashes of the Rec?
> 
> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6463


 
Thanks for posting this info up. More on this here




> Lend Lease want to keep social rented tenants separate from private owners. This would mean building a separate ‘second core’, which would be required to provide:
> _“separate access including lifts and circulation areas to social rented accommodation within the development.”_​_*Planning Application ref 12/AP/2239* Officer’s Report_​The cost of this social apartheid makes the scheme financially unviable. Unsurprisingly Lend Lease’s solution is not to build any social rented or affordable housing!


 
As Manter says dear god please no. 

As BH says it does sound how it could possibly pan out on that site. I was looking at the Rec site and the Council offices behind Rec ( International House) are built as part of Rec site. The offices will be given to the developer of the Town Hall Site as part payment. It would make sense for Council to offer the whole site (Rec and International House) to one developer. And then do same deal on new Rec as at Elephant.

The Council have already said they would look favourably on change of use of offices to residential.

Lend Lease say:



> "Local people wanted to see a confident and modern Elephant, and we will work with local partners to create a shared vision for the community, drawing on the diverse range of cultural and creative attractions which the Elephant has to offer."


 
This is exactly the language Lambeth use. I wonder if developers and Councils go to classes to learn this bollox.


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## Gramsci (Dec 9, 2012)

Bump as public meeting is tomorrow



Gramsci said:


> the meeting on the 10th December is on level 5 of Rec


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

Hope to see some of you there at the meeting tonight - 6.30pm


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

STOP PRESS: A loud, angry and at times chaotic meeting tonight, attended by around 100 people, appears to have forced the council to shelve plans for demolition of the Rec. After hearing various comments from the floor, Cllr Lib Peck gave us a verbal assurance that the Rec would not be knocked down. GOOD. Now we need to see it in writing.....

I'll write a fuller report later...

Also wanted to say that Gramsci has played an important role in tonight's events....


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## nagapie (Dec 10, 2012)

Delighted to hear that. I really wanted to attend but it's bedtime for my little one and his dad had to be at work.


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## Manter (Dec 10, 2012)

It was very chaotic at times. And found myself in the very odd position of feeling sorry for Lib Peck....

Gramsci's intervention was calm, rational and compelling, and precipitated the verbal assurance. Which was being videoed by the guy stood next to me....


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## gaijingirl (Dec 10, 2012)

oh this is so so so fantastic and such good news.... Well done Gramsci... and everyone who went.


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## Brixton Blog (Dec 10, 2012)

Hiya, here's our write up of the meeting, much as Brixton Hatter described it. http://www.brixtonblog.com/locals-win-victory-for-the-brixton-rec/8808 (think I got the key bits down but those in attendance let me know if anything you felt crucial is missing)


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## Manter (Dec 10, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> Hiya, here's our write up of the meeting, much as Brixton Hatter described it. http://www.brixtonblog.com/locals-win-victory-for-the-brixton-rec/8808 (think I got the key bits down but those in attendance let me know if anything you felt crucial is missing)


That's a good summary IMO


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> Hiya, here's our write up of the meeting, much as Brixton Hatter described it. http://www.brixtonblog.com/locals-win-victory-for-the-brixton-rec/8808 (think I got the key bits down but those in attendance let me know if anything you felt crucial is missing)


Thanks 

...and well done for getting the wording of her commitment right! Your shorthand is obviously better than mine


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 11, 2012)

Manter said:


> It was very chaotic at times. And found myself in the very odd position of feeling sorry for Lib Peck....
> 
> Gramsci's intervention was calm, rational and compelling, and precipitated the verbal assurance. Which was being videoed by the guy stood next to me....


After about 15 or 20 minutes of the meeting Lib Peck, Sally Prentice and the officers in the front row looked visibly shocked and shaken at the anger in the room. They apologised for failing to consult Rec users earlier on. An early question to Lib Peck asked whether she could rule out knocking down the Rec. She danced around the question for a bit and talked about the various consultations, investment, developer interest etc etc - 'context setting' if you like. People didn't have much patience for this approach and there was a lot of shouting and anger. It was a difficult meeting, but the feeling of residents was clear. Gramsci made the point that the core strategy and Future Brixton Masterplan both included retention of the Rec, so would the council honour this and write it into the SPD?  It was in response to this that Lib Peck said the strength of feeling in the room means there is too much [feeling] to really ever get the space to think about closing the Rec. I am now going to say categorically we will keep the Rec.”

A well timed intervention if I ever saw one.

I now want to see this commitment in writing in the SPD which goes for formal consultation in the new year.

Lib Peck earlier in the meeting said the timetable has slipped a bit and that the SPD consultation will probably be out in February. I guess Council Officers - who were sitting silently in the front row staring into their iPads, ears burning - will now be getting onto a hasty rewrite of the draft SPD.

I think this is also an important development in the wider planning/development process in Brixton. Lib Peck said - as we suspected - that there is significant developer interest in Brixton. Residents have clearly made their views known on this issue. The draft SPD will detail further 'development opportunities' and it will crucial the community has its say on those issues too. We need to stay engaged in this...

I did wonder whether - with LP in charge of the Council instead of Steve Reed - whether this might mark the start of a more 'honest' execution of the 'cooperative council' principle of listening to residents. We can only hope....


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## Frumious B. (Dec 11, 2012)

Sorry I missed the meeting - turning up was required, as strength in numbers was clearly the winning factor. And it would have been a bonus to see some urbz in the flesh. But I was too frazzled.   Well done everyone for all your efforts, seems they really have paid off.

I think this calls for champagne - so it's all round to Manter's.


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## Manter (Dec 11, 2012)

I hesitate to like that.... I haven't unpacked the glasses


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## Winot (Dec 11, 2012)

Great news, and well done to everyone who went (especially Gramsci it seems).



Brixton Hatter said:


> After about 15 or 20 minutes of the meeting Lib Peck, Sally Prentice and the officers in the front row looked visibly shocked and shaken at the anger in the room.


 
Interesting that it took a face-to-face meeting for them to clock this - did you get the imnpression that they had paid any attention at all to the online protests?


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## Manter (Dec 11, 2012)

Winot said:


> Great news, and well done to everyone who went (especially Gramsci it seems).
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that it took a face-to-face meeting for them to clock this - did you get the imnpression that they had paid any attention at all to the online protests?


One of the councillors stopped to talk to me and the lady I was with- called Rachel, in lilac coat? She does the portfolio that includes families and children and she said that she and some of her colleagues have been raising issues for the last few months and didn't feel it had become clear until they were in the room- she felt it was great that they had heard the emotion live in the room. So it sounds like it was easy to distance themselves when it was just reports and emails etc.

One thing they were asking for but didn't really get is ideas of how the rec can be improved. How they go about engaging with the user group and wider Brixton residents will be, I think, critical to our establishing whether they are acting in good faith.


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## fortyplus (Dec 11, 2012)

Something tells me that this isn't going to be all over quite yet. Just a hunch. But those developer johnnies, chequebook in hand and lawyers in tow, can be even more persuasive than a roomful of angry citizens, and politicians' public promises are not known for being usually kept.


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## Manter (Dec 11, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Something tells me that this isn't going to be all over quite yet. Just a hunch. But those developer johnnies, chequebook in hand and lawyers in tow, can be even more persuasive than a roomful of angry citizens, and politicians' public promises are not known for being usually kept.


I suspect this will be quietly shelved now, but not sure the required upgrading and improvement will happen either- and them we will go round it all again in a few years


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## Frumious B. (Dec 11, 2012)

The BRUG needs to remain on the alert and find ways of increasing utilisation of the facilities. In the end, it's a numbers game; the more users the Rec has, the harder it will be to kill it.


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## Manter (Dec 11, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> The BRUG needs to remain on the alert and find ways of increasing utilisation of the facilities. In the end, it's a numbers game; the more users the Rec has, the harder it will be to kill it.


Someone mentioned last night that they should advertise the 'voids'- there are spaces that are very heavily used some nights and empty the others: and clubs looking for spaces....
They could also do with advertising the facilities- I know a couple of fellow capitalist parasites who had no idea there was a gym in the Rec that is cheaper and better than the one in Fitness First


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## nagapie (Dec 11, 2012)

Brilliant, well done to all involved.

Gramsci, don't let them ever run you out of Brixton or I'll have to adopt you.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 11, 2012)

yeah.. definite thanks to @Gramsci who seems to be really tireless with this sort of thing... it's easy to moan online but that level of dedication is hard to keep up - so thanks loads.

However, I agree that this is unlikely to be the end of this and if it doesn't happen now - I suspect next year, the year after... they will be dying to cash in and it's true we should remain vigilant - and also, as has been mentioned, there should be more investigation of how to exploit the facitilities there more and more.  Although, I'm not sure how one would go about doing this ... presumably that's GLL's job?


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## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> After about 15 or 20 minutes of the meeting Lib Peck, Sally Prentice and the officers in the front row looked visibly shocked and shaken at the anger in the room. They apologised for failing to consult Rec users earlier on. An early question to Lib Peck asked whether she could rule out knocking down the Rec. She danced around the question for a bit and talked about the various consultations, investment, developer interest etc etc - 'context setting' if you like. People didn't have much patience for this approach and there was a lot of shouting and anger. It was a difficult meeting, but the feeling of residents was clear. Gramsci made the point that the core strategy and Future Brixton Masterplan both included retention of the Rec, so would the council honour this and write it into the SPD? It was in response to this that Lib Peck said the strength of feeling in the room means there is too much [feeling] to really ever get the space to think about closing the Rec. I am now going to say categorically we will keep the Rec.”
> 
> 
> I did wonder whether - with LP in charge of the Council instead of Steve Reed - whether this might mark the start of a more 'honest' execution of the 'cooperative council' principle of listening to residents. We can only hope....


 
Thanks BH. Brixton Blog also picked up on what Cllr Lib Peck said as well. I was still unsure about what she said. I was trying to get a definitive answer. Had to ask twice. Not easy when you are up there asking the questions in a somewhat raucous meeting ( in a good way) to follow if your question has been answered.

The person who started it was the woman at the back who asked for for the Cllr Peck to say if the Rec was to be kept before we started talking about what we wanted to improve the Rec. She was spot on in her question. As talk about improvements would mean nothing without this question being answered.

She was not given a definitive answer despite her efforts. And the many interjections asking for a straight answer to the question. So I felt I better have a go as well.

Also good that there were so many people there. Some had to stand as there was no room. A good turnout.

I also felt that Cllr Peck, as leader of Council, might listen more than Reed would have had. Its not a weakness to listen then change ones mind imo. Didn't happen when the Tesco planning application for the Ice Rink on the car park site went through. Clearly all the Labour Cllrs had to take the same line on it.

Also credit should go to the BRUG committee who I know have spent a lot of there spare time organising the meetings, meeting Better/ GLL and the Cllrs. Otherwise this would have disappeared into the documents that few people read or know about. Also , unfortunately , emails are all very well but looks like it takes an angry face to face meeting to make an impression. Rational comments can only work after a lot of angry people making themselves heard.


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## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> yeah.. definite thanks to @Gramsci who seems to be really tireless with this sort of thing... it's easy to moan online but that level of dedication is hard to keep up - so thanks loads.
> 
> However, I agree that this is unlikely to be the end of this and if it doesn't happen now - I suspect next year, the year after... they will be dying to cash in and it's true we should remain vigilant - and also, as has been mentioned, there should be more investigation of how to exploit the facitilities there more and more. Although, I'm not sure how one would go about doing this ... presumably that's GLL's job?


 
The main element of my question was that the SPD needs to be written to protect the Rec. Otherwise another administration in the future might decide to knock it down and replace it somewhere else. 

At the meeting it was said by Cllr Peck that the Council would work with GLL on improvements. Also I got the impression they would consult BRUG.


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## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2012)

Manter said:


> They could also do with advertising the facilities- I know a couple of fellow capitalist parasites who had no idea there was a gym in the Rec that is cheaper and better than the one in Fitness First


 
Advertise in CityAM?

Good to meet u there Manter.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 11, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The main element of my question was that the SPD needs to be written to protect the Rec. Otherwise another administration in the future might decide to knock it down and replace it somewhere else.
> 
> At the meeting it was said by Cllr Peck that the Council would work with GLL on improvements. Also I got the impression they would consult BRUG.


 
great.. and great it's all being documented too. I really hope that Cllr Peck will stick by her words and that the Rec will be safe for many years to come.


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## Manter (Dec 11, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Advertise in CityAM?
> 
> Good to meet u there Manter.


Ha, maybe not....

Good to meet you too, sorry I was being nagged and couldn't join you for a drink


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## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2012)

Winot said:


> Great news, and well done to everyone who went (especially Gramsci it seems).
> 
> Interesting that it took a face-to-face meeting for them to clock this - did you get the imnpression that they had paid any attention at all to the online protests?


 
I think Brixton Hatter is right that the Cllrs looked shaken. I hope online/ email makes a difference. But looks like it needs angry people shouting. Which there was a lot of at the meeting.

I was afraid at one point the whole meeting might just collapse.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 11, 2012)

I think it's all necessary and does make a difference... a lot of lurkers read these boards.. emails to cllrs lay foundations, word of mouth, people talking to each other (whether online or on the street) etc etc... it's thanks to all this kind of thing that there is an angry crowd there to be answered.  Of course it's easy to turn your computer off - not so easy to silence a large group of angry people in person.


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## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> Hiya, here's our write up of the meeting, much as Brixton Hatter described it. http://www.brixtonblog.com/locals-win-victory-for-the-brixton-rec/8808 (think I got the key bits down but those in attendance let me know if anything you felt crucial is missing)


 
Thanks for getting this done so quickly. Glad u got those quotes as well. Be good if u can keep following this issue.


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## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2012)

​I got this Lambeth Council press release sent onto me:
​​​​*Subject:* *New council leader pledges to improve Brixton Rec*​​*New council leader pledges to improve Brixton Rec*​​Brixton Recreation Centre will remain on its current site and the council will seek funding to improve the existing facilities, the new leader elect of the council has confirmed this week.​​Cllr Lib Peck, Leader of Lambeth Council said this week that after listening to views from the community the council would seek to improve the existing building rather than look to build a new one.​​At a meeting of Brixton Recreation Centre Users’ Group on Monday night, Cllr Peck said that she would be instructing council officers to work up proposals to attract external funding to improve the current Brixton Recreation Centre so that access for disabled people could be improved and the building could be more energy efficient.​​Cllr Peck said: “There’s been a lot of speculation about the future of Brixton Rec and leisure facilities in the area. We have been clear from the start that our intention is to improve the quality and range of leisure facilities in the area and see whether there was an appetite from local people to see us explore the idea of a new leisure centre for Brixton at a different location. We would never seek to impose anything on the community that it didn’t want.​​“From the feedback we’ve received at meetings and via written correspondence it’s pretty clear that there is an enormous amount of affection for Brixton Recreation Centre and little desire to move facilities into a new building elsewhere.​​“The Rec is a treasured, landmark building and it’s part of the what makes Brixton so special and unique. What we want to do now is to work together with the community, both those who use the centre and those who currently don’t, and our partners GLL, to refurbish Brixton Rec to create a real legacy for the future and create a building the whole community can come together and enjoy.​​Cllr Peck added that the council would need to look carefully over the coming months to identify what funding was available to make the improvements required given the council’s challenging financial position. She said the council would work with the community to plan improvements and seek outside funding​​She added: “We are ambitious for Brixton – Brixton Recreation Centre needs improving, particularly so that it is more accessible for all our residents including disabled people and more people can benefit from the huge range of sporting activities which are run the from Rec. We also want to make sure we hear from people who don’t currently use the Rec about what improvements would encourage them to do start doing so.”​​Councillors and officers will be meeting Brixton Recreation Centre users group and the wider community of Brixton in the coming weeks to start discussions about how the Rec can be improved.​​​


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## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2012)

The Lambeth Council press release does not say anything about the Brixton SPD so that will need to be followed to make sure the wording protects the Rec longterm.

Also the Rec is part of the Brixton Masterplan area. So imo it would also be necessary to look at the market car park/ ice rink site, International house, the Council estate nearby and Brixton Station Road as one whole. And involve BRUG and others in this. This is longterm planning.

The Brixton Masterplan and the recent Cooperative Council both see the local community as having an important role to play in future development of Brixton. This did not happen on the Town Hall site where officers developed a scheme with no involvement of local people. Except in a trivial way at the end.

So structures to do this need to be developed. Ive already said this at the SPD informal consultation. That something should be in SPD for Brixton about this.

So I think the Council officers should be instructed by Cllrs to do "open book" planning. That is informing people of what there ideas for a site are and who they are talking to. A lot of people at the meeting on Monday asked what the Councils "hidden agenda" was. Thats hardly surprising when wording about demolishing Rec suddenly appears in docs. The Council saying this was in response to people saying the entrance to Rec was dark did not wash. Neither did the Council saying they were being "green" and pro disability.


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## indigolove (Dec 14, 2012)

Manter said:


> One of the councillors stopped to talk to me and the lady I was with- called Rachel, in lilac coat? She does the portfolio that includes families and children and she said that she and some of her colleagues have been raising issues for the last few months and didn't feel it had become clear until they were in the room- she felt it was great that they had heard the emotion live in the room. So it sounds like it was easy to distance themselves when it was just reports and emails etc.
> 
> One thing they were asking for but didn't really get is ideas of how the rec can be improved. How they go about engaging with the user group and wider Brixton residents will be, I think, critical to our establishing whether they are acting in good faith.


Rachel Heywood is the councillor - she sat with Steadman the guy who teaches young kids to play football. Heywood is the only councillor who has the first clue or care about Brixton


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## indigolove (Dec 14, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks BH. Brixton Blog also picked up on what Cllr Lib Peck said as well. I was still unsure about what she said. I was trying to get a definitive answer. Had to ask twice. Not easy when you are up there asking the questions in a somewhat raucous meeting ( in a good way) to follow if your question has been answered.
> 
> The person who started it was the woman at the back who asked for for the Cllr Peck to say if the Rec was to be kept before we started talking about what we wanted to improve the Rec. She was spot on in her question. As talk about improvements would mean nothing without this question being answered.
> 
> ...


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## indigolove (Dec 14, 2012)

Yes there were a lot of meetings, leaflet handing out and conversations which thankfully paid off. The secretary of BRUG is the shining star


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## Gramsci (Dec 16, 2012)

My notes on the meeting. They are not exhaustive. 

*Brixton Recreation Centre public meeting to discuss the future of the Rec. 

Called by BRUG

Date: 10th September 2012

The Chair opened the meeting with a few words of her own. She said the Rec may be in danger. Users of the Rec had not been consulted. Lambeth is now a Cooperative Council and citizens are at the heart of Lambeth. They should have input in the process. Brixton Rec is more than just a Rec it is a Community Hub. 

Another BRUG member assisting the chair said a few words. He said the Rec is a unique place. All ages and races make friendships there. It has a huge range of activities and social activities. 

The users of the Rec were not consulted about future of Rec.

Contributions from the floor and responses from Cllrs. 

That the Rec has cultural significance and if it was in Mayfair the Council would not think of pulling it down.

Someone from Herne Hill asked what is being proposed? 

Someone said he was representing the unspoken voice of the community. He said the facilities at Rec for football/ basketball  helped to stop youth going into crime.

Cllr Lib Peck spoke ( Council leader) 

She said there was a context. There had been a lot of consultation on the Brixton Town Centre. That the recent consultation was made up of workshops, and online consultation. ( heckling people saying “get to the point” and “what is the hidden agenda”). She said that this had all been started by rumours. That there was pride in Brixton. ( more heckling- “get to the point”). She said that the Council wanted the best leisure facilities for Brixton. But there were issues of access for disabled. ( more heckling- “get to the point” and the Council want to “sell off (Rec) to make money”). Cllr Peck continued that there is no hidden agenda and the Council wanted to improve facilities. That there were issues of disability access and energy sustainability of Rec. That the rumours had started with the consultation of the Brixton SPD. She urged people to sign up to Future Brixton. The draft SPD was due to be published this week but this had been pushed back. So formal consultation may not start until February. She said she was now leader of Council but had been the Cabinet member of Regeneration and housing. This post was now taken over by Cllr Pete Robbins. But as he had only been in the post a few days she was talking at the meeting. 

More heckling. The Rec was iconic and a lifeline for people.

Chair intervened saying people had the right to speak. That people speak in turn. Chair said that this was about improving Rec. What is important to keep in the Rec. 

Cllr Lib Peck said she was sorry there was anxiety about selling the Rec.

From the floor at the back a woman asked that Cllr Peck categorically say whether the Rec site is to be sold. Many interjections from floor saying “answer the question”. Chair said that questions would be answered in turn. 3 questions from each side of room in turn then answers. People from floor interjected saying- no more questions until the lady at the backs question is answered. Someone from floor asked is the Rec underused? It is in prime position for retail. What is going on?

Cllr Lib Peck said there is developers interest in site in Brixton. That consultation had said that people did not want any more big chain stores. That they wanted to retain the character of Brixton. The Rec is not underused. There was a large investment in it 5 years ago. Greenwich Leisure/ Better had a a good impact on running the centre. But there are concerns about disability access and energy efficiency. 

Someone asked if the Rec building needed to be demolished. Cllr answered no that was not necessary. Cllr Peck said that a serious level of investment was needed and that the meeting should start to make a “shopping list” of improvements. Along with GLL/Better. 

It was said that no officer had put up a notice about the recent consultation in the Rec. Cllr Peck said that it had been a mistake not to do this and have a separate meeting on the Rec. Cllr Peck repeated there was no “hidden agenda”. This issue of hidden agenda was repeatedly raised by the floor. That the Council wished to work with people to work up options. That residents should make decisions. 

From floor issue of the Brixton SPD was raised. That unless the draft wording was changed to make it in line with the Brixton Masterplan and the Lambeth Core Strategy the Rec would be under threat in the future. Both the Brixton Masterplan and the Lambeth Core Strategy specifically protect Rec. How can the finished Brixton SPD contradict the Core Strategy? Questioner asked for assurance that the wording of the formal consultation document for the Brixton SPD would protect Rec. This was asked twice. 

(Was it at around this point that Cllr Peck said that the feeling of the community was so strong that she said the Rec would be kept? I think so but she did not give assurance on the SPD?)

Cllr said that developers are interested in Brixton. But Council would only want to work with developers who put money into the community as well. 

From floor. Man said that the consultation had been an insult.This was not being done in Brixtons name. 

The Cabinet member for leisure centres spoke. Cllr Sally Prentice. The Council had to think about the energy crisis and energy costs of the Rec. Also the Council had to deal with the fact that it would not being getting any more money from central Government. 

In Clapham the old leisure centre from the 1930s had been closed and completely rebuilt. The old centre was no longer fit for purpose. 

That issues about disabled access and underuse of areas in Rec needed to be looked at.

Interjection from floor- you are paid to sort these things out. Just put some new lights in.

Cllr Prentice said that the Council was not a soft touch with developers. 

Next in the meeting the Chair said to discuss the way forward. Summary of discussion below.

Boy comes to front to speak. Said he had used the Rec since he was 3. Now here for 5 years. So the Rec was important to him.

There needs to be a policy to get Brixton a world class athlete.

The Roller Girls said they are world class team as they are European Champions. Number 11 in world ranking. That the Rec is the only place in London where they can practice using the roller skates. As other Recs do not like roller skates on there floors. If the present Rec went they did not know what they would do.

Longer opening hours were suggested.

Refurbishment Yes replacement No

If there is refurbishment do it around people not close Rec for ages.

Go back to original architects vision for the Rec.

Rec is used by church groups as well.

In the ramp open up the windows which are now covered up on one side.

Another child spoke. They had used the Rec since they were 2 years old when they started swimming. They were now level 8.

Chair said that older people use the Rec.As an older person she said it was important for peoples well being and health. Doctors sometimes suggest using Rec to patients. 

The new Cabinet member for Regeneration and housing is Cllr Pete Robbins. He was present and he had been listening to everything that had been said. He had only been in post for 3 days.

Brixton Energy could look at putting in solar panels and green energy.

It was pointed out that “Better Games” for the over 55s had been televised in Brixton Rec. It would be good to have “Better Games” for younger people. 

Cllr said that everyone present should go on the BRUG email list for further consultation.

The meeting ended. The Chair thanked everyone for coming and the lively debate. Also the reassurance from the Council that the Rec would not be demolished.
*


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## snowy_again (Dec 17, 2012)

I've just dug out the Action for Access* report on the disability accessibility perception of the Rec:

http://www.actionforaccess.org/2095/gyms-leisure-centres-and-pools/brixton-recreation-centre.html

Only three main concerns

- one about staff training / sensitivity towards working with disabled people 
- one about accessible materials and publicity; and the last
- a lack of colour contrasted steps  

* details on Exercise your Right surveys here: http://www.actionforaccess.org/2647/gyms/exercise-your-right.html


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## eroom (Dec 17, 2012)

Just wanted to add my thanks to all the people who have lobbied, both electronically and in the flesh, to get Lambeth to make the statement above.

As others have noted, fingers crossed it might just signal a slightly more receptive leadership in place.


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## Brixton Hatter (Feb 18, 2013)

George Finch, the architect who designed the Rec, died last week from a heart attack 

RIP George.

I'm glad he was still alive to hear the good news about the Rec.


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## gaijingirl (Feb 18, 2013)

like the last bit..


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## leanderman (Feb 18, 2013)

Let's face it though, it is not a great building.

But it is big, it is lovable and it would be crazy to tear it down.


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## lang rabbie (Feb 18, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> like the last bit..


Ditto


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## Tolpuddle (Feb 19, 2013)

However it appears Lib Peck has caused significant problems with her promise of saving it, as the cost of whatever needs doing is greater than the cost of taking it down & building a new one.


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## leanderman (Feb 19, 2013)

Is that true? Also, would a replacement be like for like?


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## Crispy (Feb 19, 2013)

Tolpuddle said:


> However it appears Lib Peck has caused significant problems with her promise of saving it, as the cost of whatever needs doing is greater than the cost of taking it down & building a new one.


I'd like to see some sort of details for that. What "needs doing" and by whom has it been costed?
(not asking you per se)


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## gaijingirl (Feb 19, 2013)

and by building a new one - does that mean a new one with like-for-like facilities?  I doubt it. Reduced facilities maybe...


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah, a paddling pool, a treadmill and a drinks machine


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## gaijingirl (Feb 19, 2013)

in Thornton Heath...


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## fortyplus (Feb 19, 2013)

Tolpuddle said:


> However it appears Lib Peck has caused significant problems with her promise of saving it, as the cost of whatever needs doing is greater than the cost of taking it down & building a new one.


I don't think this is quite true.
I think the cost of what needs doing is greater than the cost of taking it down, selling off the site to a private developer and then building a new one next door on the somewhat smaller skating-rink site.


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## leanderman (Feb 19, 2013)

Why not just sell the developer the ice rink site?


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## Gramsci (Feb 19, 2013)

Tolpuddle said:


> However it appears Lib Peck has caused significant problems with her promise of saving it, as the cost of whatever needs doing is greater than the cost of taking it down & building a new one.


 
Can u explain further? Seems u know something I do not.


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## Brixton Hatter (Feb 19, 2013)

Tolpuddle said:


> However it appears Lib Peck has caused significant problems with her promise of saving it, as the cost of whatever needs doing is greater than the cost of taking it down & building a new one.


I'm not sure how you can assert this, given the cost of 'doing whatever needs doing' isn't even known yet. The process of looking at what improvements need to be made has only just begun.



leanderman said:


> Let's face it though, it is not a great building.


I like it. I guess it's subjective though. But I really do like it, it has pretty much everything we need. I don't think we could get a better leaisure centre. Have a read of this:

http://savebrixtonrec.wordpress.com...sign-quality-and-architecture-at-brixton-rec/


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 23, 2013)

Rec User meeting tomorrow at 6.30pm in the level 5 social room - pop along for an update on progress with improvements


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