# Murder and rape on Moorlands Estate/ Somerleyton Road, Brixton



## editor (Mar 1, 2012)

There was a load of police and an ambulance in attendance by Brixton Village this afternoon, and I heard that a particularly unpleasant incident had happened. 

I'm not going to post up the details until it gets confirmed, so does anyone have any idea of  what actually happened?


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## editor (Mar 1, 2012)

Sadly, it turned out that a young girl was raped in the stairwell of Southwyck House (Moorlands Road end).


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 1, 2012)

Hope it wasn't one of those gang related ones, whereby young female gang members come up with nasty shit

That's by the by, not nice thing to have happened at all


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## boohoo (Mar 1, 2012)

I saw the ambulance and wandered what had happened. I remember back in the late 1980s two girls getting raped in Stockwell Park Estate - would be interesting to know whether this crime has decreased or increased in the area over the last 30 years (though it is never possible to know how much stuff goes unreported.)


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## RaverDrew (Mar 1, 2012)

ffs


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 1, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I saw the ambulance and wandered what had happened. I remember back in the late 1980s two girls getting raped in Stockwell Park Estate - would be interesting to know whether this crime has decreased or increased in the area over the last 30 years (though it is never possible to know how much stuff goes unreported.)


 
Same happened with two girls in another estate up Brixton Hill.  I actually met a girl who said "the girls deserved it"


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## slcr (Mar 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Same happened with two girls in another estate up Brixton Hill. I actually met a girl who said "the girls deserved it"


 
Which estate was that, Minnie?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 1, 2012)

slcr said:


> Which estate was that, Minnie?


 
Will PM


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## gabi (Mar 2, 2012)

that's fucking disgusting and very very sad


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## shygirl (Mar 2, 2012)

Poor girl, what a terrible thing to go through. In this case, we don't yet know who the perpetrator(s) is/are, but gang related rape/sexual exploitation is very wide spread.  Many girls don't identify what happens to them as rape, therefore don't report it. The Haven, which supports victims of rape, says it has seen a huge increase in girls and young women coming through its doors.   And Minnie is right in saying that some girls have no sympathy for others who they feel are 'asking for it'. But that's because they, too, have been hardened by the need to keep themselves safe in gang affected areas where young men often behave in a predatory and aggressive way towards girls. And because that is what is reflected in society at large, in the judiciary, the media, etc.  There's been an significant increase in services for girls and young women who are at risk of/have experienced rape and/or sexual exploitation, but we still need lots more.  Healthy relationships work is being carried out in secondary and primary schools, to help kids understand and identify abusive behaviour and sexual bullying.  A lot ofyoung people seem to believe that if a girl is 'putting herself out there' and consenting, then whatever happens is her fault.  In spite of seeming to understand the factors that lead to this level of vulnerability and risky behaviour.   I've done quite a bit of work with young men on attitudes to girls/women and sex, it can make for scary stuff, but I have also been really uplifted by some really sound views put forward by individual young men on the right of girls and women not to be to be abused by others.


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## nagapie (Mar 2, 2012)

Related and depressing fact, Lambeth has the highest domestic violence figures in the country.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 2, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Healthy relationships work is being carried out in secondary and primary schools, to help kids understand and identify abusive behaviour and sexual bullying.


 
I'm very glad to hear it - without wanting to be alarmist, the latter years of Primary School (or even earlier in an age-appropriate way) are certainly not too soon to learn how to deal with sexually charged bullying.

And hopefully may lead to this:


> but I have also been really uplifted by some really sound views put forward by individual young men on the right of girls and women not to be to be abused by others.


 
Thoughts with this poor girl .


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 2, 2012)

nagapie said:


> Related and depressing fact, Lambeth has the highest domestic violence figures in the country.


 


Never knew that


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 2, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Thoughts with this poor girl .


yes - hope she's got some good people round to help her through


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 2, 2012)

17 year old boy stabbed, dead,* very close by to this incident today  I've been away and am feeling sick to my stomach coming back to such brutality on my estate.



eta

*according to someone in the estate shop who saw the aftermath.


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## editor (Mar 2, 2012)

Still taped off now. It could just be me, but the vibe on the streets feels as dark and as oppressive as this horrible fog that's descended over Brixton.


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## editor (Mar 2, 2012)

I heard that a young kid got stabbed in the heart, but didn't hear if it was fatal or not. Either way, it's clearly being treated as a serious incident.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 2, 2012)

The police are telling people who are going through the cordon to reach their homes that once they're home to stay home, and taking names and addresses of everyone who is going in or out of the estate.


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## editor (Mar 3, 2012)

It's been confirmed that a 17 year old boy died after being stabbed in Adelaide Close, Brixton, yesterday around 5.50pm.

Two serious incidents in 24 hours is deeply sad news and really worrying for residents.


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## Funki mamma (Mar 3, 2012)

There was something definitely dark in the air yesterday.  My 14 year old son and his mate got attacked by a mob of up to 15 youths yesterday at about 3.45pm on Streatham High Rd.  I'm still in shock, if it wasn't for the intervention of a guy and his son who stepped in pulled the youths off.  Then rang me and took my son and his friend to the Police Station it would have been a lot worse.  My son never really goes out anymore, I fear for this generation of kids.  We have to do something, it can't go on...


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## boohoo (Mar 3, 2012)

Looks like something happened in West Norwood too yesterday. 

Not good.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Mar 3, 2012)

:/
I saw ambulances rushing into moorlands as I was going to work and sommerleyton road was all cordonned off when I walked back.

It doesn't make things any better but about 10-12 years ago there was a period when walking in the area between Brixton and Loughborough junction you pretty much constantly had a yellow police incident sign in your sign at all times, I remember an awful lot of them were for sexual aggressions.


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## editor (Mar 3, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> It doesn't make things any better but about 10-12 years ago there was a period when walking in the area between Brixton and Loughborough junction you pretty much constantly had a yellow police incident sign in your sign at all times, I remember an awful lot of them were for sexual aggressions.


That stretch of Coldharbour Lane used to be really notorious. There were reports of women being dragged into the front gardens and being raped and I remember seeing no shortage of yellow police signs about.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 3, 2012)

There was another 17-year-old lad stabbed in West Norwood last night as well

eta:  Just noticed, boohoo's already mentioned it


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## Sweetpea (Mar 3, 2012)

Here is the BBC report which suggests that there have been 7 incidents: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17247711


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## editor (Mar 3, 2012)

Update here:


> Officers were called at 5.50pm on Friday to reports of a youth found with stab wounds in Adelaide Close on the Moorlands Estate.
> 
> He was en route to hospital when he died in the ambulance 50 minutes later.
> While police have not named the victim he has been identified locally as Kwame Asare.
> ...


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## bi0boy (Mar 3, 2012)

Possibly linked to stabbings a week earlier:



> At 02:50 GMT on 25 February in St Saviour's Road, SW2, a man received multiple stab wounds.
> At 16:30 GMT on 25 February in Tierney Road, SW2, a man was stabbed.
> At 16:30 GMT on 25 February in Streatham Hill, SW2, a man was hit and stabbed.
> At 16:35 GMT on 25 February in Streatham Place, SW2 a man was stabbed.
> ...


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## Chilavert (Mar 3, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Possibly linked to stabbings a week earlier:


 How depressing.


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## ajdown (Mar 3, 2012)

Chilavert said:


> How depressing.


 
Depressing doesn't even begin to describe it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 3, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Possibly linked to stabbings a week earlier:


 
I wonder if Nos. 2, 3 and 4 are all the same incident? 

All in the same area

hm, says five separate incidents, but all around the same time, but then the last one (Moorlands) says it's SW3, so not sure how correct all this info is.

Nasty stuff anyway


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## ymu (Mar 3, 2012)

Funki mamma said:


> There was something definitely dark in the air yesterday. My 14 year old son and his mate got attacked by a mob of up to 15 youths yesterday at about 3.45pm on Streatham High Rd. I'm still in shock, if it wasn't for the intervention of a guy and his son who stepped in pulled the youths off. Then rang me and took my son and his friend to the Police Station it would have been a lot worse. My son never really goes out anymore, I fear for this generation of kids. We have to do something, it can't go on...


How very brave of the people who helped him, and thank fuck they were there. Hope your boy is dealing with it OK.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 3, 2012)

Murder squad now doing door-to-door on the Moorlands.


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## shygirl (Mar 3, 2012)

Funki mamma said:


> There was something definitely dark in the air yesterday. My 14 year old son and his mate got attacked by a mob of up to 15 youths yesterday at about 3.45pm on Streatham High Rd. I'm still in shock, if it wasn't for the intervention of a guy and his son who stepped in pulled the youths off. Then rang me and took my son and his friend to the Police Station it would have been a lot worse. My son never really goes out anymore, I fear for this generation of kids. We have to do something, it can't go on...


I'm so sorry to hear your son had that awful experience, it must have been absolutely terrifying for him and his friend. Thank goodness for the man and his son, there's not many who'd have the courage to do what they did. I do believe that there's a new gang emerging in the Streatham area, and that they might be responsible for a few attacks recently. I'm loathe to write this stuff, as it can increase fear and anxiety, however, as a parent, you will want to know what's going on out there. My son just missed the gang stuff, but he did get robbed lots. In hindsight, I wish I had upped sticks and gone back home where he could have lived without the fear of these mean streets. It can be so difficult for youngsters growing up in this environment. And even most of the kids involved in gangs are depressed and see no future for themselves (not that that excuses the harm they cause others). I hope your son gets support within his school to deal with what has happened. I work with young people locally, if you want to pick my brain about anything, PM me.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 4, 2012)

How utterly shocking and sickening.
All of it.

I am so full of hope and resolve for my home area. I love Brixton and the wider area, but sometimes I wonder if I am being selfish bringing up my family here.


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## hendo (Mar 4, 2012)

The young man who died in Friday's stabbing has been named:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17252823


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## Gramsci (Mar 4, 2012)

hendo said:


> The young man who died in Friday's stabbing has been named:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17252823


 
I notice the rape didnt make it to the BBC news on Brixton area.


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## Gramsci (Mar 4, 2012)

OpalFruit said:


> How utterly shocking and sickening.
> All of it.
> 
> I am so full of hope and resolve for my home area. I love Brixton and the wider area, but sometimes I wonder if I am being selfish bringing up my family here.


 
Definitely not being selfish. If people with families leave then the scumbags  and gangsters would have won.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 4, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I notice the rape didnt make it to the BBC news on Brixton area.


 
Sometimes I wonder if that isn't a good thing. Do these scumbags feel important to make the news? In their addled horrible heads does their 'hood (I'm sick of all this gangsta-aping slang) being on the news in crime reports confirm it's reputation for being beyond the law and in their control? Does it glamourise it? News coverage of this stuff certainly puts people from outside off living here. Decent family and / or community minded folk who look to somewhere slightly more affordable that has good transport, parks, facilities.


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## Gramsci (Mar 4, 2012)

OpalFruit said:


> Sometimes I wonder if that isn't a good thing. Do these scumbags feel important to make the news? In their addled horrible heads does their 'hood (I'm sick of all this gangsta-aping slang) being on the news in crime reports confirm it's reputation for being beyond the law and in their control? Does it glamourise it? News coverage of this stuff certainly puts people from outside off living here. Decent family and / or community minded folk who look to somewhere slightly more affordable that has good transport, parks, facilities.


 
We dont know yet know the circumstances of the rape. It could have been done by someone not connected with Brixton for all anyone knows.

I commented because rape is a serious crime but this was not reported on the mainstream news. Must happen in other areas but also not be reported in news so I wonder how prevalent it is.


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## lang rabbie (Mar 4, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I notice the rape didnt make it to the BBC news on Brixton area.


 
I wouldn't want to draw any media-bashing conclusion from that.  We can't know whether the young woman who was the victim of this incident was able/willing to say sufficient about it for the police to define it as a rape or sexual assault.  

BTW Although Lambeth's 'Know the Difference' aimed at young men has been getting the media coverage recently, I thought there was an ongoing South London project to support young women who were victims of rape/sexual assault but reluctant to press charges because of potential come-back/peer pressure. Does anyone have details/link they can post as a public service announcement?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> We dont know yet know the circumstances of the rape. It could have been done by someone not connected with Brixton for all anyone knows.
> 
> I commented because rape is a serious crime but this was not reported on the mainstream news. Must happen in other areas but also not be reported in news so I wonder how prevalent it is.


i don't think there's any onus on the media to report everything of which they're aware.


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## London_Calling (Mar 4, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I notice the rape didnt make it to the BBC news on Brixton area.


At this stage it can only be an allegation that is being investigated.


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## Gramsci (Mar 4, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> I wouldn't want to draw any media-bashing conclusion from that. We can't know whether the young woman who was the victim of this incident was able/willing to say sufficient about it for the police to define it as a rape or sexual assault.
> 
> BTW Although Lambeth's 'Know the Difference' aimed at young men has been getting the media coverage recently, I thought there was an ongoing South London project to support young women who were victims of rape/sexual assault but reluctant to press charges because of potential come-back/peer pressure. Does anyone have details/link they can post as a public service announcement?


 
On this page of your link there is support group called "Haven". Sounds a bit like what u mean. 

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/KnowTheDifference/SupportInformationAdvice.htm


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## lang rabbie (Mar 4, 2012)

Thx.  The Camberwell Haven does great work to support all victims of rape/sexual assault.
But I had also thought (mistakenly?) that there was an initative aimed at vulnerable young women in particular???


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## Gramsci (Mar 4, 2012)

I googled but didnt find anything. BTW a lot of these services are facing cuts as they are not statutory services.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jan/31/cuts-women-services-domestic-violence


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## Gramsci (Mar 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think there's any onus on the media to report everything of which they're aware.


 
im not having a go at BBC here. What I meant was that it makes me wonder if there is a high prevalence that means it would fill up to much space in news.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 5, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> We dont know yet know the circumstances of the rape. It could have been done by someone not connected with Brixton for all anyone knows.
> 
> I commented because rape is a serious crime but this was not reported on the mainstream news. Must happen in other areas but also not be reported in news so I wonder how prevalent it is.


 
Yes, sorry, I was carelessly replying to your post as if the word 'rape' was not there and it was about the whole recent slew of violence, rape and stabbings. Actually given the rape statistics it would seem that the majority of rape cases do not appear on the news.


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## editor (Mar 5, 2012)

Here's more details about the murder victim:


> *Innocent Brixton stab victim named as Kwame Ofosu-Asare*
> The 17-year-old sustained multiple stab wounds in the attack on Moorlands Estate, dying en-route to hospital in an ambulance.
> 
> 
> ...


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 5, 2012)

I'd say this is a good article to get some information on the murder in Brixton, it provides context as well as quotes from the victim's father.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/crime/innocent-teenager-stabbed-to-death-by-gang-7537111.html


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## OpalFruit (Mar 5, 2012)

Funki Mama - I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very frightening for him.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 5, 2012)

I've always felt my son was more at risk when he was out and about than my daughters ever were. Now he's an adult I'm less worried. This is an awful time to be a teenage boy.


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## ajdown (Mar 5, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I'd say this is a good article to get some information on the murder in Brixton, it provides context as well as quotes from the victim's father.
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/crime/innocent-teenager-stabbed-to-death-by-gang-7537111.html


 
So sad, seemed like a good kid and a wasted life becoming another depressing statistic.


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## gabi (Mar 5, 2012)

editor said:


> Here's more details about the murder victim:


 
Why does it say he was 'attacked by two young black men'. Surely 'two young men' would have sufficed. The guy's black himself. What relevance does the race of his attackers have?

Metro. Jesus christ.


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## gabi (Mar 5, 2012)

I assume, ShootSniffFuckuUpTheRingholeStabBludgeon or whatever the fuck your name is, this is the 'newspaper' you work for?


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## editor (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why does it say he was 'attacked by two young black men'. Surely 'two young men' would have sufficed. The guy's black himself. What relevance does the race of his attackers have?


It may help jog possible eye witness memories, no?


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## gabi (Mar 5, 2012)

Er.... no. It's unhelpful for a very fragile community. Imo.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Er.... no. It's unhelpful for a very fragile community. Imo.


 
Not sure I agree.  This is a murder, not a little fight that's ended in someone being hospitalised


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## editor (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Er.... no. It's unhelpful for a very fragile community. Imo.


It's most likely the_ only_ info they have on them right now, and I'm pretty sure the community would rather have some info than none at all.

Speaking as a resident, I'd certainly rather know as much as possible.


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## gabi (Mar 5, 2012)

Well, yeh, im also a local resident. I also witnessed the frankly horrendous sight of brixton being beaten up in the summer, being sent home from work in order to look after my house and having the weeeeeird experience of walking past young black guys with both parties not looking at each other/averting our eyes. Such bulllshit as the Metro fuelled that and it aint helpful....

What were the perps wearing? Why isnt that reported? Why just their colour?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> What were the perps wearing? Why isnt that reported? Why just their colour?


 
Maybe it was too dark?


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## crawl (Mar 5, 2012)

The stabbing on Coldharbour Lane happened in the Food & Wine shop around the corner from Loughborough Junction, I remember passing it by. A month or so before that I witnessed a big fight in the Chinese restaurant there as well... broken glass, supposedly someone with a knife, etc. Always ends up being teens. I wish I knew what the motivation was. I never thought it was just random like it was with that 17 year old boy


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## gabi (Mar 5, 2012)

hmm ok...

'two young men with white teeth' perhaps? 

maybe that'd satisfy the metro reading drones?

the metro is the poison that feeds this city, its terrible to see otherwise normal people reading it. its. the. *DAILY. FUCKING. MAIL* do most people not realise that? it's the same journos - repackaged for idiot commuters who can't be arsed thinking.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> hmm ok...
> 
> 'two young men with white teeth' perhaps?
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, it's shit, but people read it just for something to read on the tube.  They don't all believe the shite they spout


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## gabi (Mar 5, 2012)

Doesnt that make u a little bit sad?


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## crawl (Mar 5, 2012)

Maybe a stupid question, but who decided what company would be writing for the Metro? Seems like it should be a pretty big responsibility to choose what millions of people are offered for reading every day on their travels, and yet it is filled with rubbish


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Er.... no. It's unhelpful for a very fragile community. Imo.


Oi! It's where I live and it is NOT a fragile community. Also that's the fullest description so far of those who did this. Are you saying the police should change it to 'two people'?


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> I assume, ShootSniffFuckuUpTheRingholeStabBludgeon or whatever the fuck your name is, this is the 'newspaper' you work for?


 
I find it strange that rather than focus on the topic at hand (which unfortunately is about a young innocent life taken away tragically) you decide to take the direction elsewhere. If the name of my blog causes you so much grief, I apologise. But your use of foul language is unnecessary. And regarding the newspaper I work for, I simply posted a link from the Evening Standard, not the Metro which was posted beforehand. Could you please focus on the topic of a tragic incident rather than getting into slanging wars?


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 5, 2012)

The description of the individuals who carried out this murder is not an issue which one should be pondering over. The media were well within their right to attempt to raise awareness. Too often incidents like these occur and there is a lack of coverage in the media so I find it fickle to complain in this instance. The murderers were suspected to be two black youths - which bears relevance, simple.

Rather than discuss solutions on how we address the future of our youths in society, we discuss whether the Metro should include the fact that the suspects are black. I find this more worrying than the fact knife crime has increased by 9% this year.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Doesnt that make u a little bit sad?


 
I might be reading the tv pages for all you know or doing the crossword


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 5, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> your use of foul language is unnecessary


To be honest if you're going to post here, you need to get past that one. This is a UK forum; ergo, it's much swearier than an American board, for instance, although I did raise an eyebrow at your posting name.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest if you're going to post here, you need to get past that one. This is a UK forum; ergo, it's much swearier than an American board, for instance, although I did raise an eyebrow at your posting name.


 
While I can accept your 'raised eyebrow' regarding my blog name, if you saw what the blog was about/trying to achieve you will see that we attempt to do a positive job. 

As a moderator you are in a better position to speak on swearing. I simply thought THIS THREAD PARTICULARLY was sensitive (rape and murder) that as intelligent adults we could engage in discourse without resorting to silly conversations.

If the family of either victim were viewing this forum, how would they feel?


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> If the family of either victim were viewing this forum, how would they feel?


Well, as both a moderator and a long term resident of the area (as in over 30 years) and who in that time has had neighbours who have been murdered or lost a family member to violent crime I thought your name was offensively crass in the extreme (I still do), so much so that when I saw it I expected a offensively crass and trolling post and would have instantly banned you if that was the general cut of your jib. Thankfully that was not the case. I am still not remotely interested in reading your blog that you are clearly so desperate to publicise .


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## editor (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> As a moderator you are in a better position to speak on swearing. I simply thought THIS THREAD PARTICULARLY was sensitive (rape and murder) that as intelligent adults we could engage in discourse without resorting to silly conversations.


It's a sensitive topic, yet you're posting under a distractingly sensationalistic name. I don't think it helps. In fact, it makes you sound like the online equivalent of an ambulance chaser, hungry for salacious facts to feed your blog while caring little for the people who actually live right in the middle of the affected community (and that's two of the admins here).


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## gabi (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I find it strange that rather than focus on the topic at hand (which unfortunately is about a young innocent life taken away tragically) you decide to take the direction elsewhere. If the name of my blog causes you so much grief, I apologise. But your use of foul language is unnecessary. And regarding the newspaper I work for, I simply posted a link from the Evening Standard, not the Metro which was posted beforehand. Could you please focus on the topic of a tragic incident rather than getting into slanging wars?


 
You actually do seem a decent sort - apols for lettin rip yesterday. As MrsM said tho, if you're gonna stick around, you're gonna need to get used to gettin a bit of 'foul language'


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, as both a moderator and a long term resident of the area (as in over 30 years) and who in that time has had neighbours who have been murdered or lost a family member to violent crime I thought your name was offensively crass in the extreme (I still do), so much so that when I saw it I expected a offensively crass and trolling post and would have instantly banned you if that was the general cut of your jib. Thankfully that was not the case. I am still not remotely interested in reading your blog that you are clearly so desperate to publicise .


 
While I will apologise for the name offending you, I stand by my claim that I am positively trying to help cure the gun, knife and drug crime in our society. Clearly you cannot see past the name which I accept. 'Desperate to publicise?' That is a somewhat speculative claim as I have not tried to do such, I simply explained the reason behind my username.


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## Ms T (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> The description of the individuals who carried out this murder is not an issue which one should be pondering over. The media were well within their right to attempt to raise awareness. Too often incidents like these occur and there is a lack of coverage in the media so I find it fickle to complain in this instance. The murderers were suspected to be two black youths - which bears relevance, simple.
> 
> Rather than discuss solutions on how we address the future of our youths in society, we discuss whether the Metro should include the fact that the suspects are black. I find this more worrying than the fact knife crime has increased by 9% this year.


 
I work for a respected media organisation and it is generally our policy not to identify the suspects by colour/race. It's not like it's really that helpful, given the proportion of black people in this area of London. If we had more information, ages, heights, clothing etc, that would help.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a sensitive topic, yet you're posting under a distractingly sensationalistic name. I don't think it helps. In fact, it makes you sound like the online equivalent of an ambulance chaser, hungry for salacious facts to feed your blog while caring little for the people who actually live right in the middle of the affected community (and that's two of the admins here).


 
Hungry for salacious facts? This is another speculative claim. As you refuse to check the blog I will inform you that I posted about this topic yesterday morning before knowing about this forum. One of my readers directed me to this forum afterwards. Yesterday at 17:55 I posted a link from the Evening Standard to raise more awareness. I was then subject of a few messages regarding my name. I don't see at what point I was chasing facts. I am a Lambeth resident myself, so I am in the middle of the community and I am trying to help improve the declining situation.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 6, 2012)

So far you've mentioned your blog five times in seventeen posts...I have a blog and this is I think the first time I've mentioned it in over 44,500 posts.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> So far you've mentioned your blog five times in seventeen posts...I have a blog and this is I think the first time I've mentioned it in over 44,500 posts.


 
I mentioned it so much as I was defending the use of my name. 

The first thread I posted (and deleted) I mentioned it because I was asking for help and I wanted to provide context at what it was about.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

I really do not want to get into a slanging match in a thread that is such a sensitive topic. If (for the use of my name) the administrators would prefer I do not post on this forum pls say so. I will delete my profile and not participate as I do not feel it is right to be causing issues in the forum. I have done nothing to offend: I posted an article, I defended the use of my name. I do not want you to read the bl*g as clearly the name is more important than the content to many. But it is this level of ignorance that often creates issues as people assume that they know what it is about, or refuse to attempt to find out.


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## snowy_again (Mar 6, 2012)

That's not really it though is it. You came here without reading the T&C's and blundered about for a while over a sensitive topic which affects people on this board. 

You then tried to delete your posts and obfuscate the issue, and wonder why people react in a vaguely robust manner. You're now making assumptions on people's interests and knowledge whilst you scuttle back out the door. 

You've got a thin skin for a journo.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> That's not really it though is it. You came here without reading the T&C's and blundered about for a while over a sensitive topic which affects people on this board.
> 
> You then tried to delete your posts and obfuscate the issue, and wonder why people react in a vaguely robust manner. You're now making assumptions on people's interests and knowledge whilst you scuttle back out the door.
> 
> You've got a thin skin for a journo.


 
That's not really it is it? I came on here attempting to acquire some interviewees on safety in Lambeth. The name of my bl*g caused some stir and overall my request did not go down well. I then deleted my posts in an attempt to diffuse the situation.

I then posted an article from the Evening Standard which included quotes from the father of the victim.

I was then met with comments regarding my name. I responded and explained it was my bl*g name.

Making assumptions on peoples interests and knowledge?! - Pls explain?!

I'm not running out of any backdoor but if the majority of people posting on this topic have an issue with the name of my blog and or my posts thus far I find it more useful to delete myself as this is a topic regarding two very unfortunate incidents in the area - not a topic on my username.


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## quimcunx (Mar 6, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, as both a moderator and a long term resident


 

I read that as  ''as both a murderer and a... ''


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

Four arrested today

Apparently it was the victim's first time in Brixton as well


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes it was his first time in Brixton. His Dad said he was going to a music studio, and that his son 'detested gangs.' It is crazy that there were a spate of other incidents at the Streatham Hill/Christchurch Road/Brixton Hill end of Lambeth days prior, however the one fatality occurs right in the heart of Brixton to an innocent life.


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## rover07 (Mar 6, 2012)

Shootstabsniff 

Are you taking the piss?


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

rover07 said:


> Shootstabsniff
> 
> Are you taking the piss?


 
No I'm not. But I'm interested to know in what context you mean? If it's about my name we have been through this. Scroll up if that's what you are getting at.


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## gabi (Mar 6, 2012)

Dude. Get a username change, think that might help your chances of engaging people in intelligent debate


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## rover07 (Mar 6, 2012)

I don't see where you have explained your name.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> If the family of either victim were viewing this forum, how would they feel?


 
I'd be interested to hear what they thought of your name.  I'm guessing they'd think it was a tad insensitive


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> bl*g


 
Huh? It's the username, not the word 'blog'!! 

I think your blog needs more links to the major news outlets you quote.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

rover07 said:


> I don't see where you have explained your name.


 


gabi said:


> Dude. Get a username change, think that might help your chances of engaging people in intelligent debate


 
I thought the same thing. But then would I be accused of 'running out the back door' or 'having thin skin for a journo' by some? - I think I would. People will always have their own interpretations.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I thought the same thing. But then would I be accused of 'running out the back door' or 'having thin skin for a journo' by some? - I think I would. People will always have their own interpretations.


 
It would seem most interpretations of your username on here are that it's crass and insensitive. 

Maybe to you, it's "to the point", but I think that may just be you


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I thought the same thing. But then would I be accused of 'running out the back door' or 'having thin skin for a journo' by some? - I think I would. People will always have their own interpretations.


 
I think that would be much less important than being able to engage with people, without them being distracted or offended  by your username.


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## yardbird (Mar 6, 2012)

Nobody has used the word silly.
Your username is just plain silly - and juvenile, therefore many won't take you seriously.
Bad initial move.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 6, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Huh? It's the username, not the word 'blog'!!
> 
> I think your blog needs more links to the major news outlets you quote.


 
I was accused of 'promoting' as I used that word in 5 out of 18 posts. Hence not using it.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Mar 6, 2012)

time to drop the off-topic argument?

is there a link to the arrests news mentionned earlier?
e2a: ok found a link arrests not linked specifically to Friday's murder


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

I think you should start again, with a new name and no mention of your blog


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I was accused of 'promoting' as I used that word in 5 out of 18 posts. Hence not using it.


 
I am not sure you are worth engaging with further tbh. Good luck, if you are indeed trying to do Good Things but I don't see you getting very far.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> time to drop the off-topic argument?
> 
> is there a link to the arrests news mentionned earlier?


 
Not right after it was mentioned on BBC News as I looked, but may have been updated by now

Oh, just found this

*Four Arrested*

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17273364*


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## OpalFruit (Mar 6, 2012)

If they have the right people and can make convictions stick, thank god for that.
All credit to the police for getting them off our streets.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 6, 2012)

BBC said:
			
		

> They have not been arrested in connection with the murder of Kwame Ofosu-Asare, police said.


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## editor (Mar 6, 2012)

Update:


> Police said in a statement: "The individuals, targeted in swoops at eight addresses, are believed to be associated with gangs which could have knowledge about a number of stabbing incidents in Lambeth, including the murder of 17-year-old Kwame Ofosu-Asare on Friday in Brixton. This is an ongoing operation and further policing activity is taking place to tackle gang crime and protect the public. "
> 
> Four male youths are being questioned for conspiracy to commit grievous bodily harm unrelated to the death of Kwame, in Brixton, the force said.
> 
> ...


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## quimcunx (Mar 6, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I thought the same thing. But then would I be accused of 'running out the back door' or 'having thin skin for a journo' by some? - I think I would. People will always have their own interpretations.


 
On first sight your name is a bit WTF when it is from someone unknown and first appearing in connection with a stabbing.  It was to me, even though when I looked at your blog I  could see a rationale.  If you stay on the boards, and I  hope you do, you're going to keep getting that reaction.  I say change it.  I don't think anyone is going to lambast you.


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## jeremyclyne (Mar 7, 2012)

Focus of the Community and Police Consultative Group meeting tonight (Tuesday) was on these events.  We stood in silence in memory of Kwame before hearing from the borough commander distressing accounts of his death on the Moorlands Estate and the attack on a 17-year-old on a bus in Norwood  -  stabbed 37 times and left blinded in one eye. 
Police reported an alarming refusal by victims "to engage" with officers investigating the spate of stabbings.
A father described how he had been driving down Leigham Court Road, Streatham and had stopped to rescue two youths who were being set upon by large groups -  incidents that echo  similar attacks in Streatham High Road reported earlier in this thread.


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## editor (Mar 7, 2012)

jeremyclyne said:


> We stood in silence in memory of Kwame before hearing from the borough commander distressing accounts of his death on the Moorlands Estate and the attack on a 17-year-old on a bus in Norwood - stabbed 37 times and left blinded in one eye.


God, that's terrible. Really, really awful.

Thanks for posting the update.


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## Funki mamma (Mar 7, 2012)

jeremyclyne said:


> Focus of the Community and Police Consultative Group meeting tonight (Tuesday) was on these events. We stood in silence in memory of Kwame before hearing from the borough commander distressing accounts of his death on the Moorlands Estate and the attack on a 17-year-old on a bus in Norwood - stabbed 37 times and left blinded in one eye.
> Police reported an alarming refusal by victims "to engage" with officers investigating the spate of stabbings.
> A father described how he had been driving down Leigham Court Road, Streatham and had stopped to rescue two youths who were being set upon by large groups - incidents that echo similar attacks in Streatham High Road reported earlier in this thread.


 
Just noticed this by Jeremyclyne...this was the incident concerning my son...I really want to thank this man who saved my son and his friend.  There's not many who would do this.  Sadly....


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 7, 2012)

rover07 said:


> I don't see where you have explained your name.


To understand we have to go to his blog  To encapsulate what editor thought when he took a look....to call it misspelled mediocrity would be kind.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 7, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Huh? It's the username, not the word 'blog'!!
> 
> I think your blog needs more links to the major news outlets you quote.


It's because he doesn't want it searchable by me as clearly that's his main agenda, driving traffic to his scribblings.


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## editor (Mar 7, 2012)

22 year old arrested.


> Kwame Ofosu-Asare stabbing: Man arrested
> 
> A man has been arrested on suspicion of murdering a 17-year-old boy who was stabbed in south London.
> 
> ...





> Earlier, Det Ch Insp John McFarlane said Kwame was "an innocent young man" who was chased by two knifemen.
> 
> He said: "At this stage I believe that this was a random selection of victim and that Kwame could have been attacked by individuals who saw people they did not know on what they perceived to be their territory.
> 
> "I also have to consider the possibility that the attack on Kwame was carried out in revenge for the stabbing of another youth in West Norwood or another stabbing last week."


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 7, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> It's because he doesn't want it searchable by me as clearly that's his main agenda, driving traffic to his scribblings.


 
Oh please, grow up! You harp on about the same thing again and again. It's been clear that the people in here do not like 'my scribblings.' And it's mediocre blah blah.. But why insist on going on and on?


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## yardbird (Mar 7, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> Oh please, grow up! You harp on about the same thing again and again. It's been clear that the people in here do not like 'my scribblings.' And it's mediocre blah blah.. But why insist on going on and on?


You're on _very_ thin ice here.


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## gabi (Mar 7, 2012)

Ctrl-Alt-Del time methinks


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 7, 2012)

yardbird said:


> You're on _very_ thin ice here.


 
Haha, i'm shaking in my ice skates.


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## RaverDrew (Mar 7, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To understand we have to go to his blog  To encapsulate what editor thought when he took a look....to call it misspelled mediocrity would be kind.


 
The thread was starting to go back on topic, why stir things up again ?

Seems like a very cheap dig.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 7, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> The thread was starting to go back on topic, why stir things up again ?
> 
> Seems like a very cheap dig.


 
Thank you, this is exactly my point. I'm open to criticism etc but this was not needed. Childish some might say.


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## shygirl (Mar 7, 2012)

shootstabsniff, you seem to consider yourself as the only person who cares about this issue.  You have made several comments to the effect that posters aren't interested in the actual issue, or that we're not aware of the extent of youth violence.   If you trawled the pages of urban, you would find hundreds of pages of discussion on the causes of serious youth violence, the impact on this community, measures needed to address the problem, and so on and so fourth.  Many of us on here have been affected by youth murders, as neighbours, friends and professionals working with yp.  We DO NOT need you to tell us how bad it is.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 7, 2012)

shygirl said:


> shootstabsniff, you seem to consider yourself as the only person who cares about this issue. You have made several comments to the effect that posters aren't interested in the actual issue, or that we're not aware of the extent of youth violence. If you trawled the pages of urban, you would find hundreds of pages of discussion on the causes of serious youth violence, the impact on this community, measures needed to address the problem, and so on and so fourth. Many of us on here have been affected by youth murders, as neighbours, friends and professionals working with yp. We DO NOT need you to tell us how bad it is.


I can clearly see that people care about this issue. I do not feel I am the only person that cares.


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## shygirl (Mar 7, 2012)

BTW, the name you have chosen to use brings to mind a local restaurateur on Atlantic Rd, a right prick of a man, who called his place something to do with guns.  I'm sure other posters will remember the name.  There was such an uproar that it got changed pretty quickly.  There's very little tolerance for people who seek to capitalise on bad news.  Not saying you fall into this category, but the name might imply that.


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## shakespearegirl (Mar 7, 2012)

It was called Bang Bang, arse of a man!


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## Gramsci (Mar 7, 2012)

gabi said:


> Er.... no. It's unhelpful for a very fragile community. Imo.


 
In what way? I live near where it happened. Ive read the ES and the Metro report. Dont see the problem.


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## ShootStabSniff (Mar 7, 2012)

New local news report:

Suggests suspects may have travelled in mini cab:

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...TV_of_minicab_driven_to_Brixton_murder_scene/


Two knifemen suspected of killing schoolboy Kwame Ofosu-Asare on a Brixton housing estate may have driven a minicab to the scene, police have revealed.
CCTV images of the Vauxhall Zafira car being picked up in Camberwell before the murder have been made public.
Police believe the two suspects drove the car from Camberwell to the Myatts Field Estate in Stockwell.
After the stabbing, they are believed to have returned to the minicab and driven back towards Camberwell.

They then made a second stop in Vassall Road, before moving on to the Moorlands Estate in Brixton where 17-year-old Kwame was stabbed to death.
Police are urging the driver of the minicab to come forward.
The information comes after a 22-year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of Kwame’s murder.
The A-level student from Catford was knifed multiple times as he walked with a friend through Adelaide Close on the Moorlands Estate last Friday (March 2).
He died as ambulance crews rushed him to hospital. Police believe he may have been the innocent victim of a ‘revenge attack’ following the stabbing of a 17-year-old boy in West Norwood on the same day.
Detective Chief Inspector John McFarlane, who is leading the murder investigation, said: “At this stage I believe this was a random selection of victim and that Kwame could have been attacked by individuals who saw people they did not know on what they perceived to be their territory.”


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## Brix69 (Mar 7, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> It was called Bang Bang, arse of a man!


That is one weird sort of a name for a restaurant.


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## amy clark (Mar 19, 2012)

> There was something definitely dark in the air yesterday. My 14 year old son and his mate got attacked by a mob of up to 15 youths yesterday at about 3.45pm on Streatham High Rd. I'm still in shock, if it wasn't for the intervention of a guy and his son who stepped in pulled the youths off. Then rang me and took my son and his friend to the Police Station it would have been a lot worse. My son never really goes out anymore, I fear for this generation of kids. We have to do something, it can't go on...


 
What have our youths come to be? This is so wrong and hopefully, the authorities can find a way to change this. I'd send them to some facility like a boot camp to help them change their ways. I won't send my kids out at night as well if this happens in my neighborhood. So scary


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## Orang Utan (Mar 19, 2012)

Boot camps are not the answer in any way. They would make things worse and would cost a lot of money.


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## laptop (Mar 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Boot camps are not the answer in any way. They would make things worse and would cost a lot of money.


 
You're using logic.

Are you some kind of Communist?


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## amy clark (Mar 19, 2012)

> Boot camps are not the answer in any way. They would make things worse and would cost a lot of money.


 
Only a suggestion. Not necessarily the right thing to do. In the end its up to the authorities or the parents.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 19, 2012)

it's up to everyone. not just 'the authorities' or parents.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 19, 2012)

OU is right


amy clark said:


> Only a suggestion. Not necessarily the right thing to do. In the end its up to the authorities or the parents.


Stupidly simplistic suggestion. Apart from anything else the way rents on this estate have risen over the last ten years, parents are too busy working (often two or three jobs) just to keep their heads above water, most of the troublesome kids don't have deadbeat parents, quite the opposite in fact.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 19, 2012)

I think we have to take a long hard look at ourselves as a society. We are now judging ourselves by how much we have, not who we are.


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## fortyplus (Mar 19, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think we have to take a long hard look at ourselves as a society. We are now judging ourselves by how much we have, not who we are.


This, yes.   But not only this.

Young, mainly male gang violence isn't exclusively British - it happens at the margins of most societies, in Brazilian favelas and South African shanty towns. Adolescent males are awash with testosterone and most societies have cultural ways of dealing with it. When those cultural controls break down, from poverty and social upheaval, the vacuum is filled.   It used to be the Scouts, the Boys' Brigade and other youth groups here; cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia have decimated those.  Urban employment prospects are particularly bleak for young men; it adds up to what we could call a crisis of masculinity, and we are all responsible.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 19, 2012)

i think it's naive to expect 'the authorities' to sort it all out. they haven't done very well so far.
definitely agree that there need to be projects that give youths something to do, a constructive alternative to what's going on now.


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## Griffter (Mar 19, 2012)

amy clark said:


> Only a suggestion. Not necessarily the right thing to do. In the end its up to the authorities or the parents.


 It's not "up to" anyone to sort it. We could just all leave it and deal with the consequences. The idea that it is any one group's responsibility to sort a social problem is pretty much where everything falls to bits. It's up to you (and me) to do the thing that we think is responsible and it needs different elements of society being brave/bothered/thought through enough to do demonstrate that they all give a toss. I'm not a great fan of the idea of authorities deciding how our social problems will be sorted.


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## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> This, yes.   But not only this.
> 
> Young, mainly male gang violence isn't exclusively British - it happens at the margins of most societies, in Brazilian favelas and South African shanty towns. Adolescent males are awash with testosterone and most societies have cultural ways of dealing with it. When those cultural controls break down, from poverty and social upheaval, the vacuum is filled.   It used to be the Scouts, the Boys' Brigade and other youth groups here; cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia have decimated those.  Urban employment prospects are particularly bleak for young men; it adds up to what we could call a crisis of masculinity, and we are all responsible.


While I broadly agree with your main argument, I'm at loss as to why I'm responsible.


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## soupdragon (Mar 19, 2012)

> While I broadly agree with your main argument, I'm at loss as to why I'm responsible.


 
Hello - here goes:

Because (IMHO) - the organisations Fortyplus is outlining were part of broader collectivist social formations that used to be more dominant in our culture. His characterisation of 'cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia' isn't sufficient I think to explain their demise – it's all part of the generations long story of the pluralisation of society in a whole range of ways (permissive society / marketisation are both two squabbling sides of this same movement) that has rendered individualism as the bed rock of our social reality – which your response 'why are you responsible' - reflects. Your response is absolutely correct from within that pluralist world view and completely contrary to the collectivist world view that enabled those kind of organisations to exist in the first place. If you want them (or new less creepy ones) to exist (as you seem to suggest by agreeing), you have to change your world view in relation to your position as an individual and accept responsibility for it...


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## Winot (Mar 19, 2012)

Griffter said:


> I'm not a great fan of the idea of authorities deciding how our social problems will be sorted.


 
Except that social problems are exacerbated by factors which are absolutely the business of Government.  Half of black young men are unemployed for example.


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## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Hello - here goes:
> 
> Because (IMHO) - the organisations Fortyplus is outlining were part of broader collectivist social formations that used to be more dominant in our culture. His characterisation of 'cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia' isn't sufficient I think to explain their demise – it's all part of the generations long story of the pluralisation of society in a whole range of ways (permissive society / marketisation are both two squabbling sides of this same movement) that has rendered individualism as the bed rock of our social reality – which your response 'why are you responsible' - reflects. Your response is absolutely correct from within that pluralist world view and completely contrary to the collectivist world view that enabled those kind of organisations to exist in the first place. If you want them (or new less creepy ones) to exist (as you seem to suggest by agreeing), you have to change your world view in relation to your position as an individual and accept responsibility for it...


 
By chance ive reading a critique of this position by Ranciere in his book "The Emancipated Spectator". Have not got time today to go into it all. He critiques the idea that permissive society/ marketisation are sides of the same coin and which destroyed collectivist socialising institutions. 

As he points out its an argument put forward by some on Left and Right. The permissive society came out of 60s leftist youth revolt who inadvertently championed freedom which was incorporated by Capital. Capitalism was quite happy to see collectivist institutions decline to be replaced by individualism. The individualised consumer society extended the power of Capital.

So the argument goes. However ,as Ranciere points out, these were exactly the same kinds of argument used by those who opposed the French revolution ( Burke). The old Feudal ties of obligation were swept away leading to terror and violence.

Ranciere sees this critique as leading to acceptance of things as they are. Also a misreading of the history of the past 40 years since 68. 

Ive got to go. Will think more on this. And try to find link to his work.


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## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2012)

Winot said:


> Except that social problems are exacerbated by factors which are absolutely the business of Government. Half of black young men are unemployed for example.


 
Excellent point.


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> <snip>When those cultural controls break down, from poverty and social upheaval, the vacuum is filled. It used to be the Scouts, the Boys' Brigade and other youth groups here; cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia have decimated those.<snip>


You want to know what did for a lot of those youth groups? The increased price of housing (if you can't pay the mortgage with on full time earner, the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is more or less halved), plus the increased insistance on trained adults to run and supervise those units.

Last month, a guide company which had been struggling to stay open for the last decade was disbanded. There just aren't enough warranted guiders, let alone other adults with enough free time to do the evenings, the fundraising, the activity planning, activity days & weekends, and keep up with any required training (at least partly for insurance purposes).


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## soupdragon (Mar 19, 2012)

> Ranciere sees this critique as leading to acceptance of things as they are.


 
Not all status quos are the same – 

Burke's arguments were against the collectivist revolution - he was terrified of the Will of the People no? Having then developed forms of democratic collectivism through the C20, the market / permissive revolution are in effect counter-revolutionary - returning (partly) to a pre-collectivist status quo of the market, with its excesses exploited by neo-feudalism, old corruption, and sticky=plastered over with Big Society do-gooding that Burke would have quite liked - Cameron, the wet-eyed aristocrat, is surely his heir?



> I'm not a great fan of the idea of authorities deciding how our social problems will be sorted.


 
Isn't the idea that we the People are the Authority? Isn't the problem that we've given up on being that?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Hello - here goes:
> 
> Because (IMHO) - the organisations Fortyplus is outlining were part of broader collectivist social formations that used to be more dominant in our culture. His characterisation of 'cuts, changing fashions and paedo-paranoia' isn't sufficient I think to explain their demise – it's all part of the generations long story of the pluralisation of society in a whole range of ways (permissive society / marketisation are both two squabbling sides of this same movement) that has rendered individualism as the bed rock of our social reality – which your response 'why are you responsible' - reflects. Your response is absolutely correct from within that pluralist world view and completely contrary to the collectivist world view that enabled those kind of organisations to exist in the first place. If you want them (or new less creepy ones) to exist (as you seem to suggest by agreeing), you have to change your world view in relation to your position as an individual and accept responsibility for it...


 
Errmmm...I haven't made any cuts to public services, in fact I'm involved in fights against them.

I'm still confused as to how exactly I am responsible for things I am actively opposed to!


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## soupdragon (Mar 19, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Errmmm...I haven't made any cuts to public services, in fact I'm involved in fights against them.
> 
> I'm still confused as to how exactly I am responsible for things I am actively opposed to!


 


ha ha - fair play: but, if you're already fighting it, aren't you doing so out of an acceptance of fortysomething's collective 'we' of responsibility?


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## Laughing Toad (Mar 19, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You want to know what did for a lot of those youth groups? The increased price of housing (if you can't pay the mortgage with on full time earner, the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is more or less halved), plus the increased insistance on trained adults to run and supervise those units.
> 
> Last month, a guide company which had been struggling to stay open for the last decade was disbanded. There just aren't enough warranted guiders, let alone other adults with enough free time to do the evenings, the fundraising, the activity planning, activity days & weekends, and keep up with any required training (at least partly for insurance purposes).


 
You can't blame poverty on the cost of housing alone. I know my arguments aren't popular around these parts, but getting a better education and having fewer children is something people should be told more often.


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## fortyplus (Mar 19, 2012)

We are all responsible because each of us is a citizen in the society  in which these problems have developed. "Responsible" isn't the same as "to be blamed for": easy as it is, I don't think it's ever helpful to fall back simply to "I blame the parents/the council/the police/the tories/the bankers/the unions/the permissive society". I  don't have the answers, but I do think it has a lot to do with masculinity. 

I'm  very uneasy with this, though, as it challenges most of the egalitarian, liberal/feminist ideas I espouse.  But the biological link between testosterone and aggression is pretty clear. 

Obviously, there's not a single solution. Bootcamp/informal education/youth group - the Boys' Brigade, re-imagined for the 21st century - to channel the testosterone-fuelled tendency to aggression - isn't such a terrible idea, but won't help without jobs and opportunities.


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## fortyplus (Mar 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Isn't the idea that we the People are the Authority? Isn't the problem that we've given up on being that?


Exactly


----------



## Greebo (Mar 19, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> You can't blame poverty on the cost of housing alone. I know my arguments aren't popular around these parts, but getting a better education and having fewer children is something people should be told more often.


You skimmed my post didn't you?  Please reread it, when you have the time and energy.  

I didn't blame poverty on the cost of housing.  I was blaming the lack of available adults to run youth groups at least partly on the fact that more and more households need to have every adult in fulltime work!


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## Laughing Toad (Mar 19, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You skimmed my post didn't you? Please reread it, when you have the time and energy.


This is what you said.


Greebo said:


> You want to know what did for a lot of those youth groups? *The increased price of housing* (if you can't pay the mortgage with on full time earner, the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is more or less halved), ...


 
If you _can_ pay the mortgage with one full time earner then the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is _not_ more or less halved.

I am making the very obvious point that the reason some housholds require more than one earner is a little more complicated than the _"increased cost of housing_".


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> This is what you said.
> 
> 
> If you _can_ pay the mortgage with one full time earner then the number of adults with free time & energy in the evenings is _not_ more or less halved.
> ...


Are you genuinely this thick? Don't you realise that a lot of youthgroup leaders used to be retired or only working part time? If they no longer have the time, the youth groups close. If they close, there's less positive peer pressure. Would you like me to spell out where this ends up, or can you join the rest of the dots?


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## soupdragon (Mar 19, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> I am making the very obvious point that the reason some housholds require more than one earner is a little more complicated than the _"increased cost of housing_".


 
If you're going to (quite reasonably) argue for more complexity in people's arguments, arguing yourself that it comes down to people needing to 'get a better education and have less children' is really shooting yourself in the foot.

If you're take the role of Mr-Tory-Says-It-How-It-Is can't you try to be a bit more interesting than that.


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## Laughing Toad (Mar 19, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Are you genuinely this thick? Don't you realise that a lot of youthgroup leaders used to be retired or only working part time? If they no longer have the time, the youth groups close. If they close, there's less positive peer pressure. Would you like me to spell out where this ends up, or can you join the rest of the dots?


In post 139 you claimed that the reason why people now have less free time is the "_increased cost of housing_". I'm pointing out other reasons.


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## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> ha ha - fair play: but, if you're already fighting it, aren't you doing so out of an acceptance of fortysomething's collective 'we' of responsibility?


Apparently I'm responsible for the crisis in masculinity. Maybe its my pink shirt.


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## soupdragon (Mar 19, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Maybe its my pink shirt.


 
OMG I think you've just proved my point about the permissive society.


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## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> You can't blame poverty on the cost of housing alone. I know my arguments aren't popular around these parts, but getting a better education and having fewer children is something people should be told more often.


 
no your arguments arent popular.

How about people getting proper pay and conditions for the work they do?

I know what how about enforced sterilization of those who clearly did not apply themselves at school and live in poverty? This kind of thing used to go on in parts of Western world.


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## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> In post 139 you claimed that the reason why people now have less free time is the "_increased cost of housing_". I'm pointing out other reasons.


 
if u havent noticed the cuts have led to people having  pay cuts,  hours cut and threat of losing job as well.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> In post 139 you claimed that the reason why people now have less free time is the "_increased cost of housing_". I'm pointing out other reasons.


perhaps you should amend your tagline, to read 'thick as fuck'. you clearly haven't understood post 139


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## stuff_it (Mar 19, 2012)

ShootStabSniff said:


> I can clearly see that people care about this issue. I do not feel I am the only person that cares.


Look, I'm not being funny but if you really do plan on sticking round here and learning some stuff (and I don't mean from just a few posters - this is a huge community with a lot to give in different ways) then try and remember that people who do stick around tend to do so for a very long time - a username is not just for christmas, etc, etc.

You can tell I thought mine out really well, for example. 

It takes a lot to offend me, but much much less to offend other people, and it's not nice to have to back down but have a good think about a new username, something cool sounding but vague, and since so many of us have been around for 5-10 years or more (and several old skol posters have had more than one username over the years) have a thought for your future self as well when you think of one. 

If you're serious about engaging with people then start the thread yourself about your change of name, and why. I know you probably want to 'stick to your guns' out of some sort of principal but one important lesson in life is to chose which battles it benefits you to fight to the death and which are less important than the potential gains of gracefully withdrawing from the fray.

/twopennyworth


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## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Not all status quos are the same –
> 
> Burke's arguments were against the collectivist revolution - he was terrified of the Will of the People no? Having then developed forms of democratic collectivism through the C20, the market / permissive revolution are in effect counter-revolutionary - returning (partly) to a pre-collectivist status quo of the market, with its excesses exploited by neo-feudalism, old corruption, and sticky=plastered over with Big Society do-gooding that Burke would have quite liked - Cameron, the wet-eyed aristocrat, is surely his heir?
> 
> Isn't the idea that we the People are the Authority? Isn't the problem that we've given up on being that?


 
You have not dealt with my main objection to your post that root cause is the permissive society/ rampant consumerism. You said in your original post on permissive society/marketisation,

" it's all part of the generations long story of the pluralisation of society in a whole range of ways (permissive society / marketisation are both two squabbling sides of this same movement) that has rendered individualism as the bed rock of our social reality.... Your response is absolutely correct from within that pluralist world view and completely contrary to the collectivist world view that enabled those kind of organisations to exist in the first place."

So I dont understand your post. Either marketisation/ permissive society are leading to individualist society or some form of neo feudalism. Which is it?


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## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Apparently I'm responsible for the crisis in masculinity. Maybe its my pink shirt.


 
On a serious note I get irritated when the masculinity issue crops up. It crops up in relation to working class and poor people a lot.

The masculinity of the Bankers is not criticised in same way. They wont be sent to Scout clubs etc to get them to learn to treat others as more than a means to an end. (Muppets as Goldman Sachs workers called there clients. )

The one book I have that does is Affluenza.


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## soupdragon (Mar 20, 2012)

Well I suppose it seems to me those old left / right arguments about 1968 etc are right. The collectivist forms of government had problems for the new left - the Industrial Military Complex, Modernist planning etc - and for the new right - strong unions etc.
So inadvertently the two sides coincided - and though the opposition between a 'conservative cultural / liberal economic right' and a 'liberal cultural / collectivist economic left' went on through the 80s, the reconfiguration of the left to a 'liberal cultural / liberal economic' form under New Labour - because they could beat the tories on the cultural ground if not the economic - has been the story every since.
The old sense of community, society, the state as ideal etc etc all got lost. Now we're all (wanna be) expressive individuals and the free market provides all the sub-niches we need. And in our innate need for some kind of cohesive social form, we jump on kind of fluid network-y forms and festivals, but never something as solidaristic as society and state.
By the way I think the masculinity thing is important - the metaphor of War was always important to these formations - war against poverty, scarcity etc if not actual war - although it was the actual wars of C20 that made right as well as left feel they owed it to the people to give them welfare etc. The bankers would've been officer class. Now they're set free to be fantasy Masters of the Universe and go White Collar Boxing.
And one of the reasons households needs to be dual income is because feminism doubled the workforce! Wages forced down, no one at home to help out, and all of us pursuing our individual dreams of self-fulfillment.
I'm not saying all forms of collectivity have to be based on that stuff (war, traditional households, nationalism etc) just that's what we had and what fell apart. The job is to try to find new metaphors etc...no?
Individualism / neo-feudalism: both. Corporate feudalism fills the power vacuums opened by the democratic deficit that comes from marketisation / individualism
Edmund Burke: I'm still confused.


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## fortyplus (Mar 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The masculinity of the Bankers is not criticised in same way.


Not in the same way, because the symptoms are different, but it is criticised - most trenchantly and effectively, in Iceland. But this adds to the feminisation, generally a good thing imo, of the workplace, which further closes off the perceived and actual employment opportunities for young men.


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## co-op (Mar 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> On a serious note I get irritated when the masculinity issue crops up. It crops up in relation to working class and poor people a lot.
> 
> The masculinity of the Bankers is not criticised in same way. They wont be sent to Scout clubs etc to get them to learn to treat others as more than a means to an end. (Muppets as Goldman Sachs workers called there clients. )
> 
> The one book I have that does is Affluenza.


 
Yep, also masculinity issues are pointed at black men not white men, muslims not christians etc etc. Out groups.

There is an argument that this has some basis in our social reality. It's a complicated argument and I haven't really got time to get into it properly but I think the explanation would be to do with the idea that in a patriarchal society men (or rather masculinity) is defined as intrinsically "powerful" therefore meaning that men who don't have much power (especially economic power) are forced to defend their masculinity in other ways, e.g by being more macho, claiming public territory as theirs (to replace the private space they do not own) etc. Homophobia is a good example imo. The economically marginalised man becomes a "man who is not quite a man" - he doesn't deliver the goods, bring home the bacon etc. One version of the the "man who is not really a man" is The Gay Man - and shouty homophobia is a good way to defend yourself from this "slur".

If you're a top banker, you're already a Master of the Universe, you don't need to get into that stuff in the same way.


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## paolo (Mar 30, 2012)

18 year old arrested today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17567992


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## London_Calling (Apr 1, 2012)

> Nathaniel Okusanya, from Lambeth, London, will appear in custody at Croydon Magistrates' Court, accused of killing Kwame Ofosu-Asare.
> 
> Kwame was found with fatal stab wounds in Adelaide Close on the Moorlands Estate in Brixton, south London, on the evening of Friday March 2.
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/10174150


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