# London Anarchist Bookfair 2022



## ska invita (May 12, 2022)

Friends, comrades and co-conspirators, we are pleased to share some good news in these dark times:





 Following last year’s successful collaboration, the Antiuniversity and Anarchist Bookfair in London will once again join forces this year for a week-long festival of radical learning, mutual education and printed resistance.





 These events will take place in September, Antiuni festival will be in locations all over the world and, as always, programmed by you. The Bookfair will take place on during this week Sept in London, showcasing the most exciting rad publishing of 2022 with all your favourite radical booksellers, campaigns, stalls, alongside talks and workshops.





 We urgently need funds to make this event happen, we're looking for at least £2250, so that we can secure the venue, provide accessibility support and sort out all of that good stuff which makes the yearly bookfair so special.




DONATE HERE: https://www.firefund.net/bookfair2022


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## kenny g (May 13, 2022)

For some bizarre reason that link takes one via Facebook.  Here is a direct link: Anarchist Bookfair in London 2022


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## Lurdan (May 13, 2022)

So if you make a donation do you get a stall?


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## Dom Traynor (May 13, 2022)

Can the ACG have a stall?


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## A380 (May 13, 2022)

Hang on, I’m just setting up a repeating popcorn order for the stall debate.


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## The39thStep (May 13, 2022)

What's happened to the official organiser from last year, has he been de-selected or something?


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## Magnus McGinty (May 13, 2022)

He’s busy looking good in hi-vis.


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## Pickman's model (May 13, 2022)

so when is this event?


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## ska invita (May 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> so when is this event?


"September" no actual date given i dont think


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## Pickman's model (May 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> "September" no actual date given i dont think


yeh i saw september


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## hitmouse (May 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> Hang on, I’m just setting up a repeating popcorn order for the stall debate.


Can the ACG get a stall to sell popcorn and other refreshments for this thread?


Pickman's model said:


> yeh i saw september


That thing states "The Bookfair will take place on during this week Sept in London", which is a bit , but clicking around a bit I got to the official website, which says: Home


> Antiuni fest will run 10-16 Sept in locations all over the world and will be, as always, programmed by you. The Bookfair will take place on Sat 24 Sept in London, showcasing the most exciting rad publishing of 2022.
> 
> Registration to host an Antiuni event or run a Bookfair stall will open in the summer. Check out www.anarchistbookfair.london and www.antiuniversity.org for more information nearer the date.
> 
> ...



eta, I notice it says "registration to run a Bookfair stall will open in the summer", but there's also a listing of groups, which is the sort of thing that you might do if you'd already made some decisions about who was going to get a stall?


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## Pickman's model (May 13, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Can the ACG get a stall to sell popcorn and other refreshments for this thread?
> 
> That thing states "The Bookfair will take place on during this week Sept in London", which is a bit , but clicking around a bit I got to the official website, which says: Home
> 
> ...


i'll have to send my apologies as i'm on holiday then


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## hitmouse (May 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What's happened to the official organiser from last year, has he been de-selected or something?


I can't help suspecting that the organiser from last year may have made a special guest appearance on another thread recently.


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## Wilf (May 21, 2022)

Newcastle today, goodish numbers.


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## ska invita (Jun 22, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> so when is this event?


Saturday 17th September - Bishopsgate Institute  <great venue


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## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Saturday 17th September - Bishopsgate Institute  <great venue


Almost certainly out of the country then, you'll have to struggle on without me


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## ska invita (Jun 22, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Almost certainly out of the country then, you'll have to struggle on without me


 I'm going to Eastbourne for the weekend... The struggle is real


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## klang (Jun 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Saturday 17th September


First day of Oktoberfest I'm afraid


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 22, 2022)

Screw you guys, I'm going to go - and buy all* of the anarchist books. 

*some zines.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 22, 2022)

_"Any politic which would seek to spell Bishopsgate correctly is anathematic to Anarchism etc etc"_


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## Wilf (Jun 22, 2022)

Hope they sort this rail strike before September, very disruptive.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 22, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 328461
> 
> _"Any politic which would seek to spell Bishopsgate correctly is anathematic to Anarchism etc etc"_


Grammar fashjackets.


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## hitmouse (Jun 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Saturday 17th September - Bishopsgate Institute  <great venue


With my pedantic hat on, is that you saying that the Bishopsgate Institute is actually less than a great venue?


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## Wilf (Jun 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> With my pedantic hat on, is that you saying that the Bishopsgate Institute is actually less than a great venue?


_Fewer_.


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## ska invita (Jun 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> With my pedantic hat on, is that you saying that the Bishopsgate Institute is actually less than a great venue?


its a good effort hitmouse, good posting energy....thread is not even off page one yet....a long way to go to match the last thread...got to keep urbans rep up


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 22, 2022)

So who aren’t getting stalls then? If it’s anarchist groups and it’s transphobia etc I doubt I’ll bother.


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## chilango (Jun 22, 2022)

Same day as Swim Serpentine.

Hmmm.


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 328461
> 
> _"Any politic which would seek to spell Bishopsgate correctly is anathematic to Anarchism etc etc"_



It's quite an unusual and pretty poster, approve of the birdlife, even with the pelican wearing a flat cap. Could they have made the location any harder to read though? Date would be better bigger as well.


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

chilango said:


> Same day as Swim Serpentine.
> 
> Hmmm.



Just come straight from that wearing your wetsuit.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's quite an unusual and pretty poster, approve of the birdlife, even with the pelican wearing a flat cap. Could they have made the location any harder to read though? Date would be better bigger as well.



It’s broken pretty much every graphic design convention for getting information across.


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## chilango (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> Just come straight from that wearing your wetsuit.


Yeah, was trying to come up with something where that would be the punchline.


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

You're lucky they've gone with conventional spelling Magnus McGinty! 

_"Perhaps learning how to write letters is most openly and nakedly the point where iteration itself is at stake. Perhaps it points to the essential and primary movement from joyful exuberance to iterative drudgery. "The repetitive nature of patterns,"  with which children start to learn how to draw letters, "emphasizes the rhythmic movement which we aim for when writing," This tames the children's muscles, helping to "maintain the consistency of size."_









						Home :: Books :: Culture :: Breaking the Alphabet
					

This small booklet is a reflection on the tyranny of writing as a rigid practice from the act of writing to what we re allowed to write and what it would mean for our way of writing to be as liberating as what we re trying to say Pictographs! Breaking out of ruts! The text is reminiscent of some...




					littleblackcart.com


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's quite an unusual and pretty poster, approve of the birdlife, even with the pelican wearing a flat cap. Could they have made the location any harder to read though? Date would be better bigger as well.


Yes I think the illustration bit is great and that should be encouraged. TBF the only place I've seen the image is online where there are links for further info and dates etc...


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yes I think the illustration bit is great and that should be encouraged. TBF the only place I've seen the image is online where there are links for further info and dates etc...



I'm very much looking forward to all the anarchist and birdlife puns etc.


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## hitmouse (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> I'm very much looking forward to all the anarchist and birdlife puns etc.


Wot, no Jackdaw/Stormy Petrel?


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## ska invita (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's quite an unusual and pretty poster, approve of the birdlife, even with the pelican wearing a flat cap.


Pelican and gannet (?) adding nicely the 'anarchist birds' subgroup of Ravens, Crows, Jackdaws, Petrels and of course Sea Gulls


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## Rob Ray (Jun 22, 2022)

Don't forget Donald Rooum's Egghead (a stork)


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## charlie mowbray (Jun 23, 2022)

Hmmm, I always thought it was a secretary bird.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Hmmm, I always thought it was a secretary bird.


Secretary bird has a much shorter beak, is very different


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Hmmm, I always thought it was a secretary bird.


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## Lurdan (Jun 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Secretary bird has a much shorter beak, is very different


TBF Roumm's Wildcat also didn't look much like a real wildcat. Perhaps he was subverting bourgeois realism. 
Shame that kind of thing seems to be well out of fashion these days.


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## kenny g (Jun 23, 2022)

Will any actual anarchists be allowed to attend or will they have to sign a declaration of submission to the committee?


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## Red Sky (Jun 23, 2022)

kenny g said:


> Will any actual anarchists be allowed to attend or will they have to sign a declaration of submission to the committee?


My invitation probably in the balance this year.


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## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

Lisa’s stall request has been vetoed and she is not happy.

“disinclined” lol


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## Rob Ray (Jul 4, 2022)

Lisa's like the class identity version of that guy who can't believe someone doesn't want to date him.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

I've just watched a clip of her on GB News. My life was not improved by it.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

I do think if people/groups are refused a stall it'd be generally useful and polite to explain why. If it's just a stall selling a book that can be bought elsewhere and there's limited stall space, for example, I think that might be fair enough.

Now the only possible reasons she can think of are that the anarchist bookfair people don't like working class people or genuine collectives, neither of which strike me as the likely reasons that the project has had a stall request rejected.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

It’s all a bit “it’s my ball and you’re not playing.”
Embarrassing really.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s all a bit “it’s my ball and you’re not playing.”
> Embarrassing really.



What the bookfair? TBH I can imagine some fair reasons that she might have been turned down for a stall.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

Very weird to have chosen the smiley face thing as your book cover when the book is about the pandemic/lockdown and the smiley face is something that's become common among the Covid conspiracy lot. Be (very slightly) interested to read the book.


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## hitmouse (Jul 4, 2022)

On one hand I think it'd be better to provide a proper answer to enquiries and avoid any ambiguity, but also as someone who's not feeling particularly motivated at my own job today, I can fully sympathise with the temptation to just reply to all emails with "disinclined".


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> On one hand I think it'd be better to provide a proper answer to enquiries and avoid any ambiguity, but also as someone who's not feeling particularly motivated at my own job today, I can fully sympathise with the temptation to just reply to all emails with "disinclined".


i've been signing myself off with 'no kind regards' all today


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## JimW (Jul 4, 2022)

Perhaps that odd bloke from last time could come back and we could have ten pages of coy back and forth.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

Maybe he’s now been disinclined for having the wrong kind of hi-vis.


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## JimW (Jul 4, 2022)

Of course if they'd been piss inclined you could call it a slippery slope.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Lisa’s stall request has been vetoed and she is not happy.
> 
> “disinclined” lol


perhaps we should have continuity bookfair in conway hall and the new bookfair in red lion square.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> I do think if people/groups are refused a stall it'd be generally useful and polite to explain why. If it's just a stall selling a book that can be bought elsewhere and there's limited stall space, for example, I think that might be fair enough.
> 
> Now the only possible reasons she can think of are that the anarchist bookfair people don't like working class people or genuine collectives, neither of which strike me as the likely reasons that the project has had a stall request rejected.


there's generally been a deadline in the past before which people could get stalls - perhaps there is one this year, i don't know. but under the auld regime the collective would do their best to accommodate. now there's been a changing of the guard things are different. last time round the acg were barred. this time it's lisa. there seems to have been some decision made about the sort of people the organisers want and the sort of people they don't. and that's not healthy for the movement. back in the day i think there were stalls in the main hall at conway hall and also in the large room at the 'back' (backing onto theobalds road) plus meetings up the windy staircase. might have been windy meetings up the staircase. maybe the organisers can expand and resolve any space issues that way. i think they ought to come clean if there's some other reason behind the refusal or disinclination to give lisa a stall.


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## Athos (Jul 4, 2022)

Surely the decision is based on her involvement with WPUK?


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## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

JimW said:


> Perhaps that odd bloke from last time could come back and we could have ten pages of coy back and forth.



Perhaps there's been an SWP-style fatwah on engaging online in the Helmand Province of internet forums, urban75.


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## Sue (Jul 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i've been signing myself off with 'no kind regards' all today


That'll learn 'em.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

Sue said:


> That'll learn 'em.


if only three words could show them the error of their ways


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## Sue (Jul 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if only three words could show them the error of their ways


An American friend (who's been here for a long time), says you can tell a British person is really pissed off when they move from signing emails off with 'best regards' (for example) to just 'regards'.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

Sue said:


> An American friend (who's been here for a long time), says you can tell a British person is really pissed off when they move from signing emails off with 'best regards' (for example) to just 'regards'.


Yes, regards is what you send to someone you've no regard for


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## Rob Ray (Jul 4, 2022)

As personal lexicon: All the best is fine, best regards is "I'm irritated with you but I suppose I should be cordial" and regards as above. If it's just the text followed by your own name then it can be either absolutely fine (I don't need to all the best or best regards you, you're a mate) or absolutely not (you don't _get_ a regards you bastard), depending on context.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

i normally put 'best wishes' but today i thought i'd strike out in a new direction


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## Sue (Jul 4, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> As personal lexicon: All the best is fine, best regards is "I'm irritated with you but I suppose I should be cordial" and regards as above. If it's just the text followed by your own name then it can be either absolutely fine (I don't need to all the best or best regards you, you're a mate) or absolutely not (you don't _get_ a regards you bastard), depending on context.


As I work in a very international environment, my colleagues don't even have the grace to notice/understand my pissed off 'regards' thing. 😡


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## Rob Ray (Jul 4, 2022)

Have you tried Cordially? I hesitate to use such language but Americans in particular can be a little slow on the uptake, sometimes a little brutality is called for.


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## hitmouse (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Perhaps there's been an SWP-style fatwah on engaging online in the Helmand Province of internet forums, urban75.


That's an impressively mixed metaphor, unless I missed something and the SWP actually did occupy Afghanistan for a while?

I may have mentioned elsewhere how I used to have a really toxic passive-agg coworker who always signed off with "Kind Regards", which did my head in at the time but I have now adopted for whenever I'm cunting someone off via email. [resists temptation to go into inappropriate levels of detail about difficult email conversations I'm having at the moment and the challenge of finding appropriate sign-offs.]


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## chilango (Jul 4, 2022)

Not a huge fan of the direction Lisa has taken in recent times, but so what? That book appears to be a valid collective project that seems eminently suitable to have a stall at an anarchist book fair.

If an anarchist can't sell their book at an anarchist book fair then it does raise the question of what's the fucking point of holding in the first place?


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> What the bookfair? TBH I can imagine some fair reasons that she might have been turned down for a stall.


I've lost sight of who is organising/misorganising this event and have no idea of their politics so I'd  I'd be interested in  what you might think the 'fair reasons' are.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I've lost sight of who is organising/misorganising this event and have no idea of their politics so I'd  I'd be interested in  what you might think the 'fair reasons' are.


they are bookfair reasons


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> That's an impressively mixed metaphor, unless I missed something and the SWP actually did occupy Afghanistan for a while?


no, but they did a papersale at kabul airport


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> That's an impressively mixed metaphor, unless I missed something and the SWP actually did occupy Afghanistan for a while?
> 
> I may have mentioned elsewhere how I used to have a really toxic passive-agg coworker who always signed off with "Kind Regards", which did my head in at the time but I have now adopted for whenever I'm cunting someone off via email. [resists temptation to go into inappropriate levels of detail about difficult email conversations I'm having at the moment and the challenge of finding appropriate sign-offs.]


There was a smart , if smarmy senior policy officer, on the Council who would always sign off his emails /whats apps with 'Thanks Steve' which I found so irritating I started to use it myself.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> There was a smart , if smarmy senior policy officer, on the Council who would always sign off his emails /whats apps with 'Thanks Steve' which I found so irritating I started to use it myself.


oh yes, i've seen that - might join you in using


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> they are bookfair reasons


Have these been handed down from bookfair to bookfair or do they change from bookfair to bookfair?  It's at times like this one almost feel some nostalgia for the days of The Black Hand  and his bookstalls. Thanks Steve.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Have these been handed down from bookfair to bookfair or do they change from bookfair to bookfair?  It's at times like this one almost feel some nostalgia for the days of The Black Hand  and his bookstalls. Thanks Steve.


These are new rules known only to the mysterious organisers


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Have these been handed down from bookfair to bookfair or do they change from bookfair to bookfair?  It's at times like this one almost feel some nostalgia for the days of The Black Hand  and his bookstalls. Thanks Steve.



There was to be a boycott following the Helen Steele debacle so the organisers threw the towel in and now some new folk took it on armed with a guest list.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I've lost sight of who is organising/misorganising this event and have no idea of their politics so I'd  I'd be interested in  what you might think the 'fair reasons' are.



I said earlier; they might be fully booked already. Or have very limited space (no idea how big the venue is) and they'd rather reserve that for groups and campaigns rather than stalls selling single books that could be bought elsewhere. Or maybe the book is really dodgy politically.

No idea, but those would be pretty fair reasons to me. But whatever the reason, the easy answer is they should just give it to Lisa, then nobody has to speculate, people can answer it if it's inaccurate, apologise if it's something they did they now think is shit/regret, etc etc.

IMO it's just decent, normal and politically sound behaviour to explain to people why you turn down a stall like this.


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There was to be a boycott following the Helen Steele debacle so the organisers threw the towel in and now some new folk took it on armed with a guest list.


Wasnt Ska Invita going to go down last year to have a word with them ?


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> I said earlier; they might be fully booked already. Or have very limited space (no idea how big the venue is) and they'd rather reserve that for groups and campaigns rather than stalls selling single books that could be bought elsewhere. Or maybe the book is really dodgy politically.
> 
> No idea, but those would be pretty fair reasons to me. But whatever the reason, the easy answer is they should just give it to Lisa, then nobody has to speculate, people can answer it if it's inaccurate, apologise if it's something they did they know think is shit, I dunno, but etc. etc.
> 
> IMO it's just decent, normal and politically sound behaviour to explain to people why you turn down a stall like this.


Agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence .  Their customer service team doesn't seem up to it tbh and there doesn't seem to be a complaints procedure.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

TBH having a look at the Kickstarter they set up, and seeing this collective seems to comprise of 7 people, 3 of which are doctors (I assume academic ones) I'm a bit meh about the whole thing being much of an anarchist project at all tbh. But who knows, it's another mystery in the Bookfair world...


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## hitmouse (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> TBH having a look at the Kickstarter they set up, and seeing this collective seems to comprise of 7 people, 3 of which are doctors (I assume academic ones) I'm a bit meh about the whole thing being much of an anarchist project at all tbh. But who knows, it's another mystery in the Bookfair world...


I think the bookfair collective should have to publish their qualifications now so we can find out what proportion of them are doctors and choose our side according.


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## A380 (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Perhaps there's been an SWP-style fatwah on engaging online in the Helmand Province of internet forums, urban75.


TBF it’s closer to Henley on Thames than Helmand Province these days…


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## A380 (Jul 4, 2022)

chilango said:


> …it does raise the question of what's the fucking point of holding in the first place?



To provide vicarious entertainment for the denizens of Urban obvs…


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## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> TBH having a look at the Kickstarter they set up, and seeing this collective seems to comprise of 7 people, 3 of which are doctors (I assume academic ones) I'm a bit meh about the whole thing being much of an anarchist project at all tbh. But who knows, it's another mystery in the Bookfair world...




Don't see holding an academic qualification and being an anarchist as mutually exclusive things. Having got this book no doubt as to the sincerity / genuine nature of those involved. A bit off, these comments, tbh.


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## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> That's an impressively mixed metaphor, unless I missed something and the SWP actually did occupy Afghanistan for a while?



Yes indeed. I was more aiming for a description of this place being a graveyard for patiently explaining Trots (RIP cliffite, Rebel Warrior & co.) and hi-vis jacketed coy bootsale organisers. Clearly my shot wasn't accurate enough


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Don't see holding an academic qualification and being an anarchist as mutually exclusive things. Having got this book no doubt as to the sincerity / genuine nature of those involved. A bit off, these comments, tbh.



No, of course they're definitely not at all mutually exclusive. It's more the project tone, of which that is a part, maybe not a very important one for sure. But nowhere does it mention anarchism etc., and I've not seen any collective anarchist projects ever have a few members that call themselves Dr ... as some public thing. I'm not making a huge deal of it, but it does look like a thing that might seem slightly odd to give a stall to if space was limited for example.

The book might be great, like I said I have no idea, which is why I think all this could have been prevented by the Boofair giving reason why they turn people/stalls down.


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## muscovyduck (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> I said earlier; they might be fully booked already. Or have very limited space (no idea how big the venue is) and they'd rather reserve that for groups and campaigns rather than stalls selling single books that could be bought elsewhere. Or maybe the book is really dodgy politically.
> 
> No idea, but those would be pretty fair reasons to me. But whatever the reason, the easy answer is they should just give it to Lisa, then nobody has to speculate, people can answer it if it's inaccurate, apologise if it's something they did they now think is shit/regret, etc etc.
> 
> IMO it's just decent, normal and politically sound behaviour to explain to people why you turn down a stall like this.


Interestingly ime this has been the way events coordination/organisation has been going in the past few years, shifting to this sort of dysfunctional "we don't want you here and we aren't going to explain why" attitude. Like everything else the practice has been de-skilled and standards have dropped. 

Imo it doesn't matter if there's a legitimate reason in this case or not because it's just normalising behaviour that can be used illegitimately


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## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

Ah not to spin it out anyway, all could have been avoided with a two line e-mail ("We choose not to platform indivduals associated with GB News and Russia Today", for example.)

It's also a shitty demonstration of power differentials- as stated by muscovyduck  "_we don't want you here and have too little respect for you to bother explaining why_".

LDC AFAICS the title "Dr" is useful for the bank manager but no-one else. The book concerned is a genuine grass roots project / set up and entirely admirable as a project. If the "Drs" involved had been looking for academic bonus points from it, it wouldn't have been self-published and would have had reviews from half a dozen well know professors on the back cover.


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

Yeah, all fair enough, like I said I think there _might_ be fair enough reasons, but we're left guessing as they can't be arsed/too scared or avoidant/are incompetent/enjoy the drama of not explaining.

E2A: She has/had slots on GB News and RT?!


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## JimW (Jul 4, 2022)

There was the Professor in uncontroversial documentary work The Secret Agent and that's set in the 1880s.


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## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, all fair enough, like I said I think there _might_ be fair enough reasons, but we're left guessing as they can't be arsed/too scared or avoidant/are incompetent/enjoy the drama of not explaining.
> 
> E2A: She has/had slots on GB News and RT?!













						Until the middle class let their talentless offspring fail, the arts in Britain are doomed to tedious and monotonous mediocrity
					

The cultural industries in the UK continue to be dominated by the inadequate scions of the privileged, who do all they can to keep the doors closed to genuinely talented working-class creatives. It has to stop.




					www.rt.com


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## LDC (Jul 4, 2022)

<Sad/vomit/angry/politically dodgy/shameless self publicist face emoticon>


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## TopCat (Jul 4, 2022)

Athos said:


> Surely the decision is based on her involvement with WPUK?


Who


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

Kind of odd for an anarchist to write for a state mouthpiece. But everyone has to put food on the table I suppose.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Until the middle class let their talentless offspring fail, the arts in Britain are doomed to tedious and monotonous mediocrity
> 
> 
> The cultural industries in the UK continue to be dominated by the inadequate scions of the privileged, who do all they can to keep the doors closed to genuinely talented working-class creatives. It has to stop.
> ...




Heh. The RT link wouldn’t open for me. Presumably it’s off bounds now.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

I don't agree with Lisa's decision to appear on these platforms either but diagreement is allowed. I believe her view is that working class voices should take any opportunity they can to speak from that point of view on media. 

Still think on balance she is a great and provocative voice to have in any debate and I don't think anyone can really doubt her credentials.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

Athos said:


> Surely the decision is based on her involvement with WPUK?


You do know there is more than 1 lisa mckenzie? We're talking about the academic not the former civil servant


----------



## A380 (Jul 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You do know there is more than 1 lisa mckenzie? ....


There's only one Lisa Mckenzie.
One Lisa Mckenzie .

There's only one Lisa Mckenzie.
One Lisa Mckeeeeeenzie !


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Don't see holding an academic qualification and being an anarchist as mutually exclusive things. Having got this book no doubt as to the sincerity / genuine nature of those involved. A bit off, these comments, tbh.


I'd say it's less of a contradiction with being an anarchist and more of a potential contradiction with playing the prolier than thou card, which is one that she is quite fond of.


Pickman's model said:


> You do know there is more than 1 lisa mckenzie? We're talking about the academic not the former civil servant


Huh, I was unaware of the other until today, but on looking it up I now learn that the WPUK-liking ex-civil servant is a Lisa M_*a*_ckenzie, while the bookfair-disinclined RT-writing academic is a plain old Lisa Mckenzie. So A380's statement above is indeed quite right.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> I don't agree with Lisa's decision to appear on these platforms either but diagreement is allowed. I believe her view is that working class voices should take any opportunity they can to speak from that point of view on media.
> 
> Still think on balance she is a great and provocative voice to have in any debate and I don't think anyone can really doubt her credentials.


I’ve got a range of opinions on her tbh , none of which would amount to no platforming her


----------



## A380 (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'd say it's less of a contradiction with being an anarchist and more of a potential contradiction with playing the prolier than thou card, which is one that she is quite fond of.
> 
> Huh, I was unaware of the other until today, but on looking it up I now learn that the WPUK-liking ex-civil servant is a Lisa M_*a*_ckenzie, while the bookfair-disinclined RT-writing academic is a plain old Lisa Mckenzie. So A380's statement above is indeed quite right.


I'm right on the button with my insightful, mature  and reflective political commentary. 

As ever.


----------



## Lurdan (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> while the bookfair-disinclined RT-writing academic is a plain old Lisa Mckenzie.


Well no, she's plain old Dr Lisa Mckenzie.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'd say it's less of a contradiction with being an anarchist and more of a potential contradiction with playing the prolier than thou card, which is one that she is quite fond of.



Well, not really- academics comes in all shapes and sizes and all class backgrounds, much like any other sector of society. Unless you're holding to an ageing stereotype of academics only featuring leather elbow patches, a whiff of pipe tobacco and referring to themselves as "one" in conversation.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

I wonder who else , aside from the ACG, has been told there’s no room at the Inn?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

Are the ACG disinclined AGAIN? It’s like all the people I’d actually be bothered to listen to aren’t on the guest list.


----------



## Christian Burt (Jul 4, 2022)

As one of the many working class people who crowdfunded the book, I’m bias.
But it really is an excellent read and the artwork is simply amazing.
Found it very inspirational as a documentation of an extremely strange time.


----------



## MikeyBigDinners (Jul 4, 2022)

This thread is a wreck. Will definitely not be venturing to the cooperative 'crashing in the same car together' bookfair. Tankies are getting tips.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

Ooh. We’ve gone out in dispatches.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

MikeyBigDinners said:


> This thread is a wreck. Will definitely not be venturing to the cooperative 'crashing in the same car together' bookfair. Tankies are getting tips.


If you're lucky there'll be a stall selling tankie tops


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are the ACG disinclined AGAIN? It’s like all the people I’d actually be bothered to listen to aren’t on the guest list.


We should have a bookfair in Hackney where all the banned people can go, bet it'd be quite a draw


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 4, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Interestingly ime this has been the way events coordination/organisation has been going in the past few years, shifting to this sort of dysfunctional "we don't want you here and we aren't going to explain why" attitude.



Not specifically about the Bookfair lot, but having been on the receiving end of people whose response to not getting their way is to go ballistic and try to spin _anything_ you say into a time/headspace consuming bunfight (or worse, public shaming) I'd guess a lot of this phenomenon is down to a strategy of self preservation. A vague response is a deniable response, gives dickheads less to latch on to.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

The Anarchist _Salon des Refusés_

btw if you think this thread is a wreck, it’s a model of civility compared to years gone by (sound system in Weatherspoon’s imbroglio, or punters asking ‘are you revol68’ looking for a scrap)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> The Anarchist _Salon des Refusés_
> 
> btw if you think this thread is a wreck, it’s a model of civility compared to years gone by (sound system in Weatherspoon’s imbroglio, or punters asking ‘are you revol68’ looking for a scrap)


Ah yes who could forget the battle of Holloway Road


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 4, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Well, not really- academics comes in all shapes and sizes and all class backgrounds, much like any other sector of society. Unless you're holding to an ageing stereotype of academics only featuring leather elbow patches, a whiff of pipe tobacco and referring to themselves as "one" in conversation.


It's a bit live by the sword, die by the sword, innit? Like, yeah, there are probably several academics in the UK who aren't actual aristocrats. But then there are probably some working-class people involved in London anarchism as well, some of them might even be bookfair organisers.


----------



## Athos (Jul 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You do know there is more than 1 lisa mckenzie? We're talking about the academic not the former civil servant


No, I didn't know that!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2022)

And if one Lisa McKenzie, 
should accidentally fall,
There'll be nine Lisa McKenzies,
Not getting a Bookfair stall.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 5, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Until the middle class let their talentless offspring fail, the arts in Britain are doomed to tedious and monotonous mediocrity
> 
> 
> The cultural industries in the UK continue to be dominated by the inadequate scions of the privileged, who do all they can to keep the doors closed to genuinely talented working-class creatives. It has to stop.
> ...



Good on her.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 5, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> I believe her view is that working class voices should take any opportunity they can to speak


Its a good idea, actually puts our message out there to discontented people who otherwise wouldn't be reached and ensures we're not just talking to ourselves, or trying to reach liberals etc many of whom aren't interested anyway.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 5, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> A vague response is a deniable response


A genius move. You savvy folks are clearly one step ahead all the way.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 5, 2022)

I'm not sure what you're expecting to achieve by griping at me like I'm responsible for the phenomenon rather than describing possible reasons for it, but alright.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 5, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> As personal lexicon: All the best is fine, best regards is "I'm irritated with you but I suppose I should be cordial" and regards as above. If it's just the text followed by your own name then it can be either absolutely fine (I don't need to all the best or best regards you, you're a mate) or absolutely not (you don't _get_ a regards you bastard), depending on context.



I have someone at my work who insists on signing off e-mails "Go Well"


----------



## Sue (Jul 5, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> I have someone at my work who insists on signing off e-mails "Go Well"
> 
> View attachment 330605


Ooh!

 'Go well, Grasshopper' could be my new sign off .

Or maybe:

'Go well, Padawan' since you know, tech company.  🤷‍♀️


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 5, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> I have someone at my work who insists on signing off e-mails "Go Well"


Could one-up them, start signing everything off with this?


----------



## rich! (Jul 5, 2022)

chilango said:


> Not a huge fan of the direction Lisa has taken in recent times, but so what? That book appears to be a valid collective project that seems eminently suitable to have a stall at an anarchist book fair.
> 
> If an anarchist can't sell their book at an anarchist book fair then it does raise the question of what's the fucking point of holding in the first place?



I'd rather not see any fascists pretending to be anarchists selling their books at an anarchist bookfair.

I don't think anyone can claim that out-TERFs are anything but fascists, right?

So, is Lisa a fascist? Is that the direction you're not a fan of?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 6, 2022)

rich! said:


> I'd rather not see any fascists pretending to be anarchists selling their books at an anarchist bookfair.
> 
> I don't think anyone can claim that out-TERFs are anything but fascists, right?
> 
> So, is Lisa a fascist? Is that the direction you're not a fan of?


I think you disagree strongly and firmly with terfs (and indeed a whole lot of other people) without thinking that it's useful to describe them as fascists. Not particularly a fan of Lisa Mckenzie, and even less so of the Lisa Mackenzie who I've just learned about, but also don't think I've seen anything that makes me think either of them could be usefully characterised as fascists?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2022)

The whole Terf = Fascists thing was basically to justify violence against women. Grim.


----------



## LDC (Jul 6, 2022)

rich! said:


> I'd rather not see any fascists pretending to be anarchists selling their books at an anarchist bookfair.



So Lisa is a fascist?! Pretty serious statement given most people would think fascists need to be physically attacked, so if you're saying that then that's what's you're encouraging rich!

So go on then, explain that for us all.


----------



## chilango (Jul 6, 2022)

rich! said:


> I'd rather not see any fascists pretending to be anarchists selling their books at an anarchist bookfair.
> 
> I don't think anyone can claim that out-TERFs are anything but fascists, right?
> 
> So, is Lisa a fascist? Is that the direction you're not a fan of?



That's a uselessly broad definition of "fascist" imo


----------



## A380 (Jul 6, 2022)

chilango said:


> That's a uselessly broad definition of "fascist" imo


Fascist = Everyone in the world who doesn’t agree completely and unequivocally with every line of your tiny groupcicle. So basically rich! and his mate Trevor. And even Trevor is beginning to look a bit suspect …


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

rich! said:


> I'd rather not see any fascists pretending to be anarchists selling their books at an anarchist bookfair.
> 
> I don't think anyone can claim that out-TERFs are anything but fascists, right?
> 
> So, is Lisa a fascist? Is that the direction you're not a fan of?


I think you're confusing our lisa mckenzie with someone of a similar name with very different politics


----------



## chilango (Jul 6, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you're confusing our lisa mckenzie with someone of a similar name with very different politics


Maybe the Bookfair made the same mistake?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

Lisa mackenzie








						"The process is the punishment": the policing of feminist thought in the workplace - Woman's Place UK
					

Lisa Mackenzie's reflections on being investigated by her former employer, the RCN, and the policing of feminist thought by trade unions...




					womansplaceuk.org
				




Lisa mckenzie


Clearly two different people


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

chilango said:


> Maybe the Bookfair made the same mistake?


I think so


----------



## A380 (Jul 6, 2022)

“Worst book fair Evah”.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Friends, comrades and co-conspirators, we are pleased to share some good news in these dark times:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There hasn't been a london anarchist bookfair since 2017. The utter wank that has replaced it just doesn't count.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> There hasn't been a london anarchist bookfair since 2017


You're quite the cranky gus atm, hey. Working through some stuff?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Working through some stuff?


Aren't we all?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 6, 2022)

True, I usually aim it at Facebook Tories.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> You're quite the cranky gus atm, hey.


cranky gus ? 😂


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> cranky gus


Is that one of the new hip 'anarchist' slang words?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 6, 2022)

Or indeed grumpy, whichever you fancy really. You're doing well here on underlining the actual query.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> There hasn't been a london anarchist bookfair since 2017. The utter wank that has replaced it just doesn't count.


as the most anarchist poster ever on here you obviously believe more than anyone in the principle and potential of collaboratively and constructively working through your differences with others in a sprit of solidarity and mutual aid - i look forward to your reports on how you've improved the situation.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 6, 2022)

In fairness you can also lay claim to being the most anarchist poster ever through comprehensively denouncing everyone around you. It's a more individualist one, but it has precedent - David Nicoll for example.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> There hasn't been a london anarchist bookfair since 2017. The utter wank that has replaced it just doesn't count.


It's good people are prepared to put on events like this, I just wish there wasn't an agenda imposed which sees people vetted on criteria we don't know and which aren't explained to those affected


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2022)

Borked URL.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2022)

I've just got back from distributing flyers about resisting the price rises in a local working class neighbourhood. Its been a much better use of my time than spending it on this thread or indeed on these forums in general.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2022)

A380 said:


> Fascist = Everyone in the world who doesn’t agree completely and unequivocally with every line of your tiny groupcicle. So basically rich! and his mate Trevor. And even Trevor is beginning to look a bit suspect …


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I've just got back from distributing flyers about resisting the price rises in a local working class neighbourhood. Its been a much better use of my time than spending it on this thread or indeed on these forums in general.


It's on a par with posting here I think you'll find


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 6, 2022)

My advice to the collective was to say yes to Lisa. Because then she'd have had to do it


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> My advice to the collective was to say yes to Lisa. Because then she'd have had to do it



Can I have a stall?
- no.
Oh but give it because they’ll have to.

How to unpick that?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 6, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Can I have a stall?
> - no.
> Oh but give it because they’ll have to.
> 
> How to unpick that?


Anyway you like as long you abide by the relevant health and safety protocol.


----------



## chilango (Jul 6, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Anyway you like as long you abide by the relevant health and safety protocol.


In hi-viz of course.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 6, 2022)

chilango said:


> In hi-viz of course.


How else? Compulsory on all sites. Even this one.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 6, 2022)

Spaces still available! Get on it combabes!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2022)

Anarchists not welcome. lol


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 6, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Anarchists not welcome. lol


No books either.


----------



## A380 (Jul 6, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Spaces still available! Get on it combabes!



"That's what I like about anarchists. So well organised."


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 6, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> No books either.


But is it fair? 🤔


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> cranky gus ? 😂


Wanky pus


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> My advice to the collective was to say yes to Lisa. Because then she'd have had to do it


There are always people who book but don't turn up


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 6, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> There are always people who book but don't turn up



Then she'd have had no story at all.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2022)

I've seen her there loads with talks etc. That she is now perhaps persona non grata says all I need to know about the new organisers. I've no idea who they are but have a general idea of what kind of politics they have.


----------



## LDC (Jul 7, 2022)

Well, we still don't know why, and tbf there _could_ be a fair explanation as I have said on here already. (I doubt there is personally, but am trying to suspend judgement until hear more.)

rich! still hasn't come back with any justification for calling her a fascist, so the Bookfair aren't the only ones acting like unaccountable toddlers.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> Well, we still don't know why, and tbf there _could_ be a fair explanation as I have said on here already. (I doubt there is personally, but am trying to suspend judgement until hear more.)


Although those "fair explanations" are running out.

There's clearly still space.for her stall.


----------



## JimW (Jul 7, 2022)

Political grounds seem more clear cut in this case though.


----------



## LDC (Jul 7, 2022)

Yeah it definitely seems that way. There seems to be this huge disconnect between the organisers and any accountability or responsibility to a wider movement to explain these choices. It's a pretty individualist and clearly politically destructive attitude.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

It's a "Bookfair of our mates and people we agree with".

Which is perfectly valid, I'm sure it's a lot of effort to organise, and effort that I'm not willing to make.

...but don't try and kid anyone that it stands in the tradition of the old Anarchist Bookfair.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 7, 2022)

There's a valid argument to be had about how broad the tent ought to be. Whether or not people with gender critical views should be there and all that. 

But talking about Lisa McKenzie is muddying the waters.  She's a pain in the neck whose USP is the IdProle bollocks of being the only working class person on the Left.

She writes for Spiked and appears on GB News. She's picked her side, so there it is.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> There's a valid argument to be had about how broad the tent ought to be. Whether or not people with gender critical views should be there and all that.
> 
> But talking about Lisa McKenzie is muddying the waters.  She's a pain in the neck whose USP is the IdProle bollocks of being the only working class person on the Left.
> 
> She writes for Spiked and appears on GB News. She's picked her side, so there it is.



Which bit of that (fair) criticism rules her out of having a stall at the Bookfair though?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> Which bit of that (fair) criticism rules her out of having a stall at the Bookfair though?


I think that "She's picked her side, so there it is" is fair enough grounds really - I reckon it'd be perfectly legitimate for a bookfair to decide on a rule of, say, "no Spiked contributors" or "no GB News/RT commentators" or whatever, on the grounds that you can't be part of an anti-working class project (however we choose to define that) and part of the bookfair at the same time. But again, at the risk of sounding like a stopped clock, if the bookfair had decided to start refusing stalls on those grounds, you'd think that it should be possible enough for them to just explain their reasoning?


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think that "She's picked her side, so there it is" is fair enough grounds really - I reckon it'd be perfectly legitimate for a bookfair to decide on a rule of, say, "no Spiked contributors" or "no GB News/RT commentators" or whatever, on the grounds that you can't be part of an anti-working class project (however we choose to define that) and part of the bookfair at the same time. But again, at the risk of sounding like a stopped clock, if the bookfair had decided to start refusing stalls on those grounds, you'd think that it should be possible enough for them to just explain their reasoning?



I mean, on the one hand, yeah. But, really? No one who has ever appeared on GB News or written for Spiked can be considered part of the UK Anarchist movement?

I think Lisa would rightly challenge your "anti-working class project" claim with the very fucking book she's trying to flog. Which is an explicitly pro-working class project.

It just opens up a Pandora's box of endless whataboutery, and toxic squabbling.

For me, if someone is clearly an anarchist, and has relevant books to sell then they should be able to have a stall (if there's space). Plenty of non-anarchist projects get stalls.

It's not about "is this person a bit of a dick?" or do we agree with their politics and/or interpretation of anarchism? Otherwise there'd be nobody there. It's full of dicks and people with iffy politics. Always has been.

It's a broad church. That's the fun of it (the Bookfair, not the anarchist movement). 

Look, most of the criticism of Lisa is valid. I don't like her trajectory. I think she's getting a lot of stuff wrong. But, I repeat, so what?


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

...and I'm not especially chuffed at finding myself defending her either!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> There's a valid argument to be had about how broad the tent ought to be. Whether or not people with gender critical views should be there and all that.
> 
> But talking about Lisa McKenzie is muddying the waters.  She's a pain in the neck whose USP is the IdProle bollocks of being the only working class person on the Left.
> 
> She writes for Spiked and appears on GB News. She's picked her side, so there it is.


if like paul out of class war she had moved to the right and joined ukip i could understand this 'she's picked her side' bit. but as i understand it she's continuing to push her politics using those as vehicles rather than adopting their politics. for me she's not put herself beyond the pale.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

I can’t fathom how you travel from class war to ukip in one seamless manoeuvre.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I can’t fathom how you travel from class war to ukip in one seamless manoeuvre.


it was several years after he actually left cw that he joined ukip: but no, nor do i


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it was several years after he actually left cw that he joined ukip: but no, nor do i



They’re not even remotely similar. Maybe his interests changed. 🤔


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

Tbh it's not that shocking a trajectory.

CW always had a populist streak. It also had a fondness for crude caricaturing regarding class. That was, in part, its appeal.

UKIP and the current wave of socially conservative populism also do this. Ditching the the position elements of class but keeping the cultural identity bits in a bid to pit "the people" against "the elite" (again often culturally defined).

It's a well trodden path of late. The likes of Paul Emberry (sp.?) and, yes, Lisa M are heading down it. How far along they are is important though.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 7, 2022)

I think you could follow Paul's thinking and interests fairly easily if you followed his blog. He has deleted some posts on there now though. His previous and current positions both include a hostility to identity politics and liberals, for one. And in particular I think he was especially concerned about how these two failed to tackle Islamic extremism adequately. 

I think if you add a pro-working class take on Brexit to the mix (with further disdain for the liberal left) and, I assume, the annoyances of trying to work in academia for a while, then I don't think it's that hard to understand.

I might be wrong, and I've only met the guy a couple of times in the noughties personally. As with Paul Embery there is a more cynical take which is that the money and clicks led them both in a particular direction, but Paul (ex-CW) was quite a talented guy imo and could have turned his hand to a bunch of different things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> Tbh it's not that shocking a trajectory.
> 
> CW always had a populist streak. It also had a fondness for crude caricaturing regarding class. That was, in part, its appeal.
> 
> ...


i see you have no trouble with crude caricatures of people of whom you know nothing


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i see you have no trouble with crude caricatures of people of whom you know nothing


No, none at all.

If I knew them I wouldn't need the crude caricatures!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> Tbh it's not that shocking a trajectory.
> 
> CW always had a populist streak. It also had a fondness for crude caricaturing regarding class. That was, in part, its appeal.
> 
> ...


It's strange perhaps how few people out of cw have followed this well trodden path.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think you could follow Paul's thinking and interests fairly easily if you followed his blog. He has deleted some posts on there now though. His previous and current positions both include a hostility to identity politics and liberals, for one. And in particular I think he was especially concerned about how these two failed to tackle Islamic extremism adequately.
> 
> I think if you add a pro-working class take on Brexit to the mix (with further disdain for the liberal left) and, I assume, the annoyances of trying to work in academia for a while, then I don't think it's that hard to understand.
> 
> I might be wrong, and I've only met the guy a couple of times in the noughties personally. As with Paul Embery there is a more cynical take which is that the money and clicks led them both in a particular direction, but Paul (ex-CW) was quite a talented guy imo and could have turned his hand to a bunch of different things.



That makes a lot of sense put like that (I have read bits of his blog a few years back).
But then there’s chalk and cheese stuff. Internationalism vs National isolationism. Horizontal mutual aid vs maintaining hierarchy. Etc.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's strange perhaps how few people out of cw have followed this well trodden path.


That you know of.

I suspect plenty of it's periphery and (ex)audience have.

It wasn't the only current or direction within CW of course, but it was definitely there ime.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

Not to mention UKIP being a total fash magnet.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

I wonder if CW in its heyday would be invited to today's version of the Bookfair?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 7, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That makes a lot of sense put like that (I have read bits of his blog a few years back).
> But then there’s chalk and cheese stuff. Internationalism vs National isolationism. Horizontal mutual aid vs maintaining hierarchy. Etc.


Yes that is a bit more tricky. I mean CW was always a very _British _form of anarchism I guess? I think there was a conscious effort in the early issues of the paper _not _to include accounts of strikes in Bolivia or whatever. And the cultural references - toffs, Dennis The Menace type stuff...

Again, it's total speculation but my guess is that once you've established that, say, opposition to Islamic extremisim is a priority, that might then lead you to reject "no borders" as a position. 

I think chilango is right in that there are probably a few people from the ultra contrarian left who have ended up in the Spiked orbit, maybe just as readers though.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i see you have no trouble with crude caricatures of people of whom you know nothing


Innit. Patronising rubbish.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> That you know of.
> 
> I suspect plenty of it's periphery and (ex)audience have.
> 
> It wasn't the only current or direction within CW of course, but it was definitely there ime.


Fucking wanker!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

This is now maturing into a proper book fair thread.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Fucking wanker!


How so?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 7, 2022)

Loads of ex-CW people are sound, I don't think that needs to be said? 

This isn't about that.


----------



## nogojones (Jul 7, 2022)

Christian Burt said:


> As one of the many working class people who crowdfunded the book, I’m bias.
> But it really is an excellent read and the artwork is simply amazing.
> Found it very inspirational as a documentation of an extremely strange time.


Welcome to the rest of the boards.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> How so?


Everything you wrote is I’ll informed bollocks.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Everything you wrote is I’ll informed bollocks.


Really? Which bit(s)?

I liked Class War. I was a reader for almost a decade. I sold the paper from time to time. Marched in its bloc. Handed out its leaflets, even attended a couple of meetings.

Its ability to blend razor sharp, politics, humour and - yes - a populist appeal was it's fucking strength. It was what set it apart from the rest of the left. It gave it a unique reach.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> Really? Which bit(s)?
> 
> I liked Class War. I was a reader for almost a decade. I sold the paper from time to time. Marched in its bloc. Handed out its leaflets, even attended a couple of meetings.
> 
> Its ability to blend razor sharp, politics, humour and - yes - a populist appeal was it's fucking strength. It was what set it apart from the rest of the left. It gave it a unique reach.



I imagine it was the suggestion that others from CW trod the same path to UKIP that rankled.


----------



## chilango (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> That you know of.
> 
> I suspect plenty of it's periphery and (ex)audience have.





Magnus McGinty said:


> I imagine it was the suggestion that others from CW trod the same path to UKIP that rankled.



Probably worth re-reading what I actually said then.

Worth remembering just how popular UKIP actually got in w/c areas off the back of it's populist anti-elites message.

Given that Class War appealed, at its height, to the same audience (the angry w/c) with some shared elements - the lack of political correctness, the populist streak, the appeal to shared cultural identities...etc. it's hardly inconceivable that some, maybe plenty, of people who had been drawn to CW in their youth ended up drawn to UKIP in their middle age. 

That's not a criticism of CW, it's an acknowledgement of UKIP's appeal and the power of such strategies. 

I


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

chilango said:


> Probably worth re-reading what I actually said then.
> 
> Worth remembering just how popular UKIP actually got in w/c areas off the back of it's populist anti-elites message.
> 
> ...



Fair enough but we were discussing a member of CW, not an interested bystander.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if like paul out of class war she had moved to the right and joined ukip i could understand this 'she's picked her side' bit. but as i understand it she's continuing to push her politics using those as vehicles rather than adopting their politics. for me she's not put herself beyond the pale.


The crucial distinction between someone using channels like this to push their politics or perspective or sond


Pickman's model said:


> if like paul out of class war she had moved to the right and joined ukip i could understand this 'she's picked her side' bit. but as i understand it she's continuing to push her politics using those as vehicles rather than adopting their politics. for me she's not put herself beyond the pale.


I think the distinction between someone using channels like these to push an anarchist /left perspective and just someone shilling is whether or not they got paid by the Right


----------



## LDC (Jul 7, 2022)

I think it's not unrelated to the topic that it's noticeable that a number of older punks (who CW as a wider social thing rather than the group itself overlapped with for sure) and slightly younger free party types (men mostly) have gone down the Covid conspiracy path, something that shares some similarities with the UKIP/EDL scene. The mix of justifiable anger and mistrust at an ill-defined elite/mainstream can very easily tip into something that's quite unpleasant, especially when people lose the social and political anchors that they probably had when younger.

And I'd say that's more a failure of the rest of the 'left' rather then CW or the free party scene specifically.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> I think the distinction between someone using channels like these to push an anarchist /left perspective and just someone shilling is whether or not they got paid by the Right



So basically the entirety of the mainstream media.
Given that is off bounds, and also book fair stalls are hard to come by it’s starting to look like the usual purist cul de sac informing nobody.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 7, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So basically the entirety of the mainstream media.
> Given that is off bounds, and also book fair stalls are hard to come by it’s starting to look like the usual purist cul de sac informing nobody.





Magnus McGinty said:


> So basically the entirety of the mainstream media.
> Given that is off bounds, and also book fair stalls are hard to come by it’s starting to look like the usual purist cul de sac informing nobody.


Not off bounds. Did Mick Lynch get paid for being on the telly?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Not off bounds. Did Mick Lynch get paid for being on the telly?


Mick Lynch has the financial support of a successful trade union (ironically, anarchism often criticises this style of top down organising).
Perhaps if the Anarchist movement wanted to ensure that Lisa McKenzie wasn't being paid by the right, they could have have paid for her not to be just like Mick Lynch?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

I'm also wondering whether Mick Lynch would even get a stall but I digress.


----------



## LDC (Jul 7, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm also wondering whether Mick Lynch would even get a stall but I digress.



I mean I doubt he would want one. But tbh it would be entirely reasonable for the Anarchist Bookfair to turn down the RMT having a stall, them not being at all anarchist.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> I mean I doubt he would want one. But tbh it would be entirely reasonable for the Anarchist Bookfair to turn down the RMT having a stall, them not being at all anarchist.


Apparently he was worthy of bringing into the debate about anarchists and the media. And maybe Anarchism can learn from that.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> I mean I doubt he would want one. But tbh it would be entirely reasonable for the Anarchist Bookfair to turn down the RMT having a stall, them not being at all anarchist.


As in the role of the bookfair isn't to advance the cause of the working class , its there to advance  the cause of the anarchists sort of entirely reasonable?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 7, 2022)

Does anyone else have any organisations that have never actually applied for bookfair stalls that we want to speculate about whether they'd qualify or not? Personally I'd be dead against English Heritage getting a stall.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 7, 2022)

Womens Institute need to be brought into the fold

"Each individual WI is a separate organisation, run by and for its own members with a constitution agreed at national level but the possibility of local bye-laws." ✊


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Does anyone else have any organisations that have never actually applied for bookfair stalls that we want to speculate about whether they'd qualify or not? Personally I'd be dead against English Heritage getting a stall.


I threw that in as a joke after it was given as some kind of comparison to McKenzie's TV appearances.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2022)

But let's not avoid the point:

Anarchism  <<< >>> The RMT


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 7, 2022)

Has anyone on here who is in an organisation successfully applied or know someone who has?


----------



## Thora (Jul 7, 2022)

rich! said:


> I'd rather not see any fascists pretending to be anarchists selling their books at an anarchist bookfair.
> 
> I don't think anyone can claim that out-TERFs are anything but fascists, right?
> 
> So, is Lisa a fascist? Is that the direction you're not a fan of?


Everyone I disagree with is a FASCIST!!!


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> As in the role of the bookfair isn't to advance the cause of the working class , its there to advance  the cause of the anarchists sort of entirely reasonable?



Not sure this is a very fruitful or relevant line of discussion to go down, but since it's a question to me...

There's a whole tradition/perspective in anarchist and anti-State/ultra left communism that's highly critical of unions, so depending on the remit of an anarchist event, then yes I think it could be entirely fair (justifiable and logical) to exclude unions. (The idea that my union (GMB) is doing _anything _to advance to cause of liberatory politics I find quite funny having had some engagement with them recently btw.)

And that's without even looking too much into your vague 'advance the cause of the working class'. I mean any number of small Leninist groups, and also the Labour Party, would say that's their politics too, but I don't think it would be a shock for them not to get a stall at any anarchist bookfair either.

Don't think this is too useful though thb. Do think a stall or talk rejection should be explained. Also think the dynamic between what a person does, and how much that reflects and should impact any wider collective project they're involved in can be tricky as well.



The39thStep said:


> Has anyone on here who is in an organisation successfully applied or know someone who has?



I'll let you know next week!

Maybe we could club together and buy the bookfair 2 ink stamps to help with all this? One that says 'NOT ANARCHIST' and one that says 'NOT OUR KIND OF ANARCHIST'. It would make all the rejections much clearer.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Tbh if it was me organising it I'd bringing in everyone I could think of from JSO to the RMT via Acorn and the hunt sabs. 

Liven it up a bit.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Tbh if it was me organising it I'd bringing in everyone I could think of from JSO to the RMT via Acorn and the hunt sabs.
> 
> Liven it up a bit.


Is JSO something to do with Jewish Socialists? Did a quick google and first result was:


			JSO specialists in the organisation of every kind of party. Providing a hire facility and entertainment agency, supplying all kinds of acts, corporate events, weddings, lighting, bands, musicians, discos in fact every kind of act or prop imaginable!
		

I definitely agree they should be brought into the organising group, would definitely liven things up a bit then.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is JSO something to do with Jewish Socialists? Did a quick google and first result was:
> 
> 
> JSO specialists in the organisation of every kind of party. Providing a hire facility and entertainment agency, supplying all kinds of acts, corporate events, weddings, lighting, bands, musicians, discos in fact every kind of act or prop imaginable!
> ...


just stop oil


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Tbh if it was me organising it I'd bringing in everyone I could think of from JSO to the RMT via Acorn and the hunt sabs.
> 
> Liven it up a bit.



I think it did used to be a bit more like that (RMT excepted), maybe no coincidence it did used to be a bit more lively then maybe? Reflection on the closing down/withdrawing of lots of politics into smaller, more specialised and less connected scenes a bit more?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 8, 2022)

ska invita said:


> just stop oil


O I C


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm also wondering whether Mick Lynch would even get a stall but I digress.


An anarchist comrade of mine who is a member of the RMT told me that the RMT was founded during the syndicalist wave of the early part of the 20th century, so though not necessarily anarchist there does appear to be a possible link with anarchism. He was also telling me how the RMT is more based around the rank and file/ordinary workers compared to some other unions, wether this is really the case though who knows.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 8, 2022)

If only some entrepreneurial.fellow, maybe based in the North somewhere could start up a string of local working class bookfairs, with bookstalls, union stalls and Labour history stalls and talks.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> If only some entrepreneurial.fellow, maybe based in the North somewhere could start up a string of local working class bookfairs, with bookstalls, union stalls and Labour history stalls and talks.



Oh but the now defunct North East Anarchists are disliked by The North East Anarchist Group.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> An anarchist comrade of mine who is a member of the RMT told me that the RMT was founded during the syndicalist wave of the early part of the 20th century, so though not strictly anarchist there does appear to be a possible link with anarchism. He was also telling me how the RMT is more based around the rank and file/ordinary workers compared to some other unions, wether this is really the case though who knows.


Best of luck in him applying for a bookstall then. Wrong sort of anarchist


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

Some of this stuff is why I'd struggle to call myself an anarchist without a fuck tonne of qualification, and why I generally have nothing to do with much of that weird scene.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Best of luck in him applying for a bookstall then. Wrong sort of anarchist


I think you're misunderstanding my post, possibly deliberately, not that I for one second actually expect the likes of Mick Lynch to be at what passes for the london anarchist bookfair any time soon.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> Some of this stuff is why I'd struggle to call myself an anarchist without a fuck tonne of qualification, and why I generally have nothing to do with much of that weird scene.


If you don't understand the anarchist movement then maybe you shouldn't be commenting so eagerly on a thread about the london 'anarchist' bookfair. Unfortuately certain people are only posting on this thread to knock anarchism.


----------



## Athos (Jul 8, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> If you don't understand the anarchist movement then maybe you shouldn't be commenting so eagerly on a thread about the london 'anarchist' bookfair. Unfortuately certain people are only posting on this thread to knock anarchism.


People aren't knocking anarchism or anarchists; they're knocking the group behind this event. The two aren't synonymous.


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## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> If you don't understand the anarchist movement then maybe you shouldn't be commenting so eagerly on a thread about the london 'anarchist' bookfair. Unfortuately certain people are only posting on this thread to knock anarchism.



Terribly sorry, if you'd like to send me some recommendations to help me understand the anarchist movement I'd be very grateful. And lol at 'knock anarchism', criticising other branches of anarchism is the specialist subject of plenty of anarchists, from the early years of the movement onwards. And rightly so, political back and forth is important, even though it might seem just like slagging things off I think it can be useful to help figure things out.

Anyway, haven't you spent a bit of time criticising the anarchists behind this event anyway, the same as lots of us?


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

Thread is totally 'Exhibit A' in our own demise and irrelevance.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 8, 2022)

I think that people should have to fill in an application form before they can post on this thread: 
"I am applying to post on the London Anarchist Bookfair thread because I wish to (tick all that apply):

have a go at anarchists in general
have a go at the bookfair organisers
have a go at anarchists who have been denied a stall at the bookfair
have a go at the bookfair organisers and at the people who've been denied stalls, but for different reasons
other, please expand..."


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think that people should have to fill in an application form before they can post on this thread:
> "I am applying to post on the London Anarchist Bookfair thread because I wish to (tick all that apply):
> 
> have a go at anarchists in general
> ...



watch people squabble over stuff I know nothing about


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> watch people squabble over stuff I know nothing about


you don't need to apply to post on something you only want to read


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think that people should have to fill in an application form before they can post on this thread:
> "I am applying to post on the London Anarchist Bookfair thread because I wish to (tick all that apply):
> 
> have a go at anarchists in general
> ...



have a go


----------



## chilango (Jul 8, 2022)

To be fair to "The Anarchist Movement" I reckon you'd get similar shenanigans organising an equivalent event for any political current.


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think that people should have to fill in an application form before they can post on this thread:
> "I am applying to post on the London Anarchist Bookfair thread because I wish to (tick all that apply):
> 
> have a go at anarchists in general
> ...



Have a go at the easy-going people who are happy with a broad church and accept all applications based on comradely good faith and solidarity. The forgiving bastards.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

chilango said:


> To be fair to "The Anarchist Movement" I reckon you'd get similar shenanigans organising an equivalent event for any political current.


I've always thought of it as a "scene"   rather than a "movement" tbh


----------



## Sue (Jul 8, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> watch people squabble over stuff I know nothing about



buy some books 
(Madness, I know...  )


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I've always thought of it as a "scene"   rather than a "movement" tbh


a milieu to give it its' formal designation


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> a milieu to give it its' formal designation


Beat me to it! Or a swamp, depending on who you ask.


----------



## chilango (Jul 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Beat me to it! Or a swamp, depending on who you ask.


...and you beat me to this


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> Have a go at the easy-going people who are happy with a broad church and accept all applications based on comradely good faith and solidarity. The forgiving bastards.


Ah is "forgiving" what's going on here. Good to know. I thought it was "going round and round in circles being annoyed."


----------



## chilango (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> "going round and round in circles being annoyed."


Ah! So that's what this symbolises!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Clever how they’ve made the A for annoyed also look like the tent which only allows some inside.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)




----------



## A380 (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Tbh if it was me organising it I'd bringing in everyone I could think of from JSO to the RMT via Acorn and the hunt sabs.
> 
> Liven it up a bit.




So why are you excluding the Woodcraft Folk huh? Don’t you want to span the world with friendship?


----------



## A380 (Jul 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> Terribly sorry, if you'd like to send me some recommendations to help me understand the anarchist movement I'd be very grateful. And lol at 'knock anarchism', criticising other branches of anarchism is the specialist subject of plenty of anarchists, from the early years of the movement onwards. And rightly so, political back and forth is important, even though it might seem just like slagging things off I think it can be useful to help figure things out.
> 
> Anyway, haven't you spent a bit of time criticising the anarchists behind this event anyway, the same as lots of us?



If only there were a one stop shop type event you could attend to peruse and purchase a number of different anarchist groups’ books. In London.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 8, 2022)

Sue said:


> buy some books
> (Madness, I know...  )



Yes, perhaps I should go to the bookfair.

Actually it's quite soothing to follow a dispute upon which you are unable to form an opinion. The most enjoyable parts of the Joe Rogan podcasts I've watched are when he talks about MMA because I know even less about MMA than I do about contemporary British anarchist groups.

And to be clear I'm not being dismissive of anarchism as a political movement historically, I'm quite sympathetic to some of the basic tenets of anarchism, it's just that I know nothing about modern groups.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> So why are you excluding the Woodcraft Folk huh? Don’t you want to span the world with friendship?


Paint the whole world with a rainbow


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Yes, perhaps I should go to the bookfair.
> 
> Actually it's quite soothing to follow a dispute upon which you are unable to form an opinion. The most enjoyable parts of the Joe Rogan podcasts I've watched are when he talks about MMA because I know even less about MMA than I do about contemporary British anarchist groups.
> 
> And to be clear I'm not being dismissive of anarchism as a political movement historically, I'm quite sympathetic to some of the basic tenets of anarchism, it's just that I know nothing about modern groups.


I wouldn't bother starting to learn about them now though tbh.


----------



## A380 (Jul 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Paint the whole world with a rainbow


That was ITV, The WCF was / is a very BBC type of co-operative movement.


----------



## nogojones (Jul 8, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> If you don't understand the anarchist movement then maybe you shouldn't be commenting so eagerly on a thread about the london 'anarchist' bookfair. Unfortuately certain people are only posting on this thread to knock anarchism.


Who are the knockers? Name Names!


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

The discussion around anarchy/anarchism and its relevance nowadays; the groups that call themselves anarchist, those that don't but have anarchist principles and sometimes politics as part of their practice, and the relationship between the movement/scene/milieu/swamp/etc. and other groups broadly on similar pages; and then the dynamic/relationship between those and social change and wider society is interesting though! (Sure I misused semi-colons there, but whatever... fuck your rules!)


----------



## nogojones (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I've always thought of it as a "scene"   rather than a "movement" tbh


A large part of the former and a little bit of the latter


----------



## nogojones (Jul 8, 2022)

Sue said:


> buy some books
> (Madness, I know...  )


Get to fuck Sue. We're not here for that!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

If it is a movement, it is smaller than it was before 2017.


----------



## JimW (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If it is a movement, it is smaller than it was before 2017.


Had more fibre then, so to be expected.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

> it is smaller than it was before 2017.


Which was smaller than it had been pre-2012. When irritable types were making the same comment about it being a scene rather than a movement. Tbh the constant downtalking of anarchists by anarchists is one of the most pointlessly self-defeating things about the movement/scene/political agglomeration/bag of cats. As though there aren't plenty of people willing to do it for us.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Which was smaller than it had been pre-2012. When irritable types were making the same comment about it being a scene rather than a movement. Tbh the constant downtalking of anarchists by anarchists is one of the most pointlessly self-defeating things about the movement/scene/political agglomeration/bag of cats. As though there aren't plenty of people willing to do it for us.


Absolutely we need a bit more optimism and bada bing . Why  doesn't someone make a list of achievements that the  anarchism scene has achieved so we can big them up up.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely we need a bit more optimism and bada bing . Why  doesn't someone make a list of achievements that the  anarchism scene has achieved so we can big them up up.


AFN , Anti GM crops, squatting Deripaskas mansion, Smash Elbit (or whatever they're calling it), a load of stuff on the HS2. 


We're down but not out.


----------



## A380 (Jul 8, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Who are the knockers? Name Names!


Tommy?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Workfare was a good one back in the 2010s, Palestine Action's been doing some cracking work in a non-hierarchical way recently and I'll say our more legally-minded wing has had at least some good influence on the new green movement/XR folks. Anarchs are also the main driver against HS2 and have been very effective in shrinking its scope (much to the chagrin of the unions/trad left types who've been all in favour of the jobs it generates). Radical Routes as well has been been quietly plugging away and while the mutual aid surge during lockdown was way too much for us to effectively politicise it was in and of itself a powerful phenomenon.

I'll also say that between the likes of Sparrow's Nest, Libcom, the Kate Sharpley Library, the Anarchist Library etc we're probably better served in terms of access to the movement's archives and classic literature than we've ever been, and have by far a larger publishing presence between PM, AK, Active, Freedom etc even before getting to the extensive academic work that's going on. Hell there's at least 15 of 16 books I can think of which are out of coming out in the second half of this year alone _specifically_ _about_ anarchism (eg these, Nick Heath's book, Freedom's upcoming stuff from Brian Morris, Camillo Berneri etc), let alone which are analysing topics through an anarchist lens.

One other issue with our general trend to negativity is that a lot of anarchist influence is often too diffuse and underreported as  "ours" to properly lay credit for - or we refuse to do so/define it as non-anarchist when we could be doing so.


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely we need a bit more optimism and bada bing . Why  doesn't someone make a list of achievements that the  anarchism scene has achieved so we can big them up up.



It's been a significant influence in pretty much every revolution, social movement and struggle for over 100 years in a bunch of places across the world. It was a significant force in union organising as has been mentioned (including obviously the IWW) and through that it can definitely take some 'credit' for the wins that has had. When not labelled as 'anarchism' per se it has had an even wider influence in the way plenty of action and campaign groups operate as has been mentioned above. Fucking loads basically.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's been a significant influence in pretty much every revolution, social movement and struggle for over 100 years in a bunch of places across the world. It was a significant force in union organising as has been mentioned (including obviously the IWW) and through that it can definitely take some 'credit' for the wins that has had. When not labelled as 'anarchism' per se it has had an even wider influence in the way plenty of action and campaign groups operate as has been mentioned above. Fucking loads basically.


Should have stated that I meant in the UK  and preferably a bit more recent than 100 years ago .The IWW were syndicalists and fair number of them  joined the  CP. 
Probably wouldn't be allowed to have a stall these days .


----------



## nogojones (Jul 8, 2022)

The syndicalist end of the spectrum has been a driving force in unionising marginalised workers in the UK over the last 10 years.


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Should have stated that I meant in the UK  and preferably a bit more recent than 100 years ago .The IWW were syndicalists and fair number of them  joined the  CP.
> Probably wouldn't be allowed to have a stall these days .








						The UK anarchist movement - Looking back and forward
					






					libcom.org


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Oh, we’re back to unions again. Which anarchists criticise.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Although tbf Lenin said it’s all we’d be good at or some such.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

_Some _anarchists criticise. Others are members of attempted syndicalist unions, and/or militant members of big ones. The only relatively unified view is a distrust of union tops.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 8, 2022)

Sue said:


> buy some books
> (Madness, I know...  )


Standards are slipping, I can't believe no-one from the ACG has popped up to flog Cafiero's Compendium or anything. Does anyone want to have a go with that new book about doctors and that?


Carl Steele said:


> Yes, perhaps I should go to the bookfair.
> 
> Actually it's quite soothing to follow a dispute upon which you are unable to form an opinion. The most enjoyable parts of the Joe Rogan podcasts I've watched are when he talks about MMA because I know even less about MMA than I do about contemporary British anarchist groups.


Here you go, fill your boots:





						Monson wins with a KO for anarchism
					

This article came out of a talk given in Belfast by anarchist MMA fighter Jeff Monson in March 2009. The article first appeared in issue 1 of The Leveller.




					libcom.org
				



Pretty sure that Monson is very much not an anarchist nowadays, another sign of the downwards turn or whatever you want to call it.


The39thStep said:


> Absolutely we need a bit more optimism and bada bing . Why  doesn't someone make a list of achievements that the  anarchism scene has achieved so we can big them up up.


Interesting question - just thinking of recent British stuff and trying not to duplicate anything from above, I'd say Bristol 21/3/21 was probably not one we can directly claim credit for, but the legal support infrastructure that's meant people aren't facing repression alone is very much an @ thing. That fire round Bristol way in about 2013 and the cops' continuing failure to get anyone for it is entertaining at least. Infrastructure stuff is easy to overlook, but keeping the 1 in 12 going since the 80s, the Sumac, ACE in Edinburgh, Cowley and so on are achievements worth noting.
Lots of housing stuff - again, on a spectrum here, sometimes stuff has happened through Solfed, mostly it's been groups that aren't explicitly anarcho but have some in.
Workplace-wise, I suppose UVW, CAIWU, IWGB are all considerably less anarcho than the IWW, but I would imagine that anarchists are still probably over-represented in at least some of them? Does anyone know if there are any anarchists involved in the electricians/construction r'n'f, or is that an example of people organising along the lines that anarchists would recommend without any actual anarchist involvement, possibly like Amazonians United in the US?
Personally, this week I got asked to check the list of members that payroll send through as paying through DOCAS versus the list of union members we have as being the same so we could spot any leavers, and I thought it was gonna be a nightmare at first cos payroll's list had the names as a single column and the union list had first name and last name separately, but then I realised I could use the concatenate function to get the union list of names in a single column as well and that made eliminating duplicates loads easier.

Anyway, the above list may not be the most impressive thing ever, but then again it's not like the last decade or two has been an uninterrupted parade of glorious triumphs for the UK working class/pro-working class politics or whatever you want to call it either?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> _Some _anarchists criticise. Others are members of attempted syndicalist unions, and/or militant members of big ones. The only relatively unified view is a distrust of union tops.



I’m in the RMT and definitely at the libertarian end of communism. I’m happy for a person to represent me who wipes out the interviewers like Lynch did. He isn’t giving us orders. We voted for it.


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## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

nogojones said:


> The syndicalist end of the spectrum has been a driving force in unionising marginalised workers in the UK over the last 10 years.


The CP and  the IS/SWP tradition of shop stewards committees and rank and file have as much claim to that 'end of the spectrum' as the anarchists. Probably more so as I cant recall members of either the CP or IS being anti trade union


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 8, 2022)

Oh, and resistance to Home Office/UKVI/Border Force/whatever they're called raids is another one that (like all the best activity) involves far more people than just anarchists, but is a tactic that anarchists have taken part in, argued for, helped to spread and organise, etc.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m in the RMT and definitely at the libertarian end of communism. I’m happy for a person to represent me who wipes out the interviewers like Lynch did. He isn’t giving us orders. We voted for it.


Big fan of Dempsey and Gordon though? And I've heard a few things about Lynch with didn't surprise me (I won't talk about it on here - anarchist I may be but I like to think I'm disciplined enough not to hand out easy scores for the enemy) but very much do fit the structural anarchist critique. Good figureheads are valuable things, don't get me wrong, but the critique is always there.


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## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Big fan of Dempsey and Gordon though? And I've heard a few things about Lynch with didn't surprise me (I won't talk about it on here - anarchist I may be but I like to think I'm disciplined enough not to hand out easy scores for the enemy) but very much do fit the structural anarchist critique. Good figureheads are valuable things, don't get me wrong, but the critique is always there.


what is the structural critique that anarchists who aren't anti trade union have ?


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The CP and  the IS/SWP tradition of shop stewards committees and rank and file have as much claim to that 'end of the spectrum' as the anarchists. Probably more so as I cant recall members of either the CP or IS being anti trade union


I'd say the opposite with the CP - they had closet members and/or the ear of leaders in most of the major unions through to probably the late 2000s/early 2010s when the SP made headway with the new generation. They had a lot of good (and a fair number of not very good) shop stewards but they weren't in any way into flat union structures. They're still very influential within the RMT, TSSA and various others.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> what is the structural critique that anarchists who aren't anti trade union have ?


The anarcho-syndicalist one.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Big fan of Dempsey and Gordon though? And I've heard a few things about Lynch with didn't surprise me (I won't talk about it on here - anarchist I may be but I like to think I'm disciplined enough not to hand out easy scores for the enemy) but very much do fit the structural anarchist critique. Good figureheads are valuable things, don't get me wrong, but the critique is always there.



I’m mates with some Tankies not unrelated to those you mention. Great pub conversations. I don’t see them as actual fascists. Anti-fascists becoming the fascist is a bit of a smear, if that’s what you mean.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Actually those I drink with aren’t Stalinist’s.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

I didn't describe them as such. I do think they're headbanging tankies using the RMT to push a pretty reactionary social agenda though. I certainly wouldn't want to be a trade unionist trying to defend values they'd dismiss as "woke bullshit" or whatnot who rubs up against them wielding positions of serious authority. Let alone their mate Hedley.


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## nogojones (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The CP and  the IS/SWP tradition of shop stewards committees and rank and file have as much claim to that 'end of the spectrum' as the anarchists. Probably more so as I cant recall members of either the CP or IS being anti trade union


Over the last 10 years or so was my proviso.

The SWP/SP and whichever members of the CP that haven't retired tend to be more firmly established in unionised industries and tend to rise to decent enough branch activists. It's the previously un-unionised workforces that the traditional unions tend to ignore that the syndicalist end of the spectrum have seemed to put their energies into: Cleaners; gig workers; warehousing; call centres; care; hospitality... Maybe it's reflective of the ages of the activists and the industries that they tend to end up in, or maybe its in part that the SWP/SP and whoever have become a little stale and are more comfortable and experienced in their own groove?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I didn't describe them as such. I do think they're headbanging tankies using the RMT to push a pretty reactionary social agenda though.



Mick Lynch?
I don’t know his politics tbh. I voted Hedley because he’s ex Red Action.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

No I don't think Lynch is tankie (if anything I heard he doesn't get along with the pro-CPB wing), he strikes me as self-consciously old-fashioned socialist. Worse things to be than that of course.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Hedley would have been a mess just on his own merits afaics, let alone with his domestic abuse skeletons in the background - couldn't stop himself from trying to bully people on Facebook after a few beers for a start, which I couldn't see translating well to say, a wind-up interview with Piers Morgan.


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## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Over the last 10 years or so was my proviso.
> 
> The SWP/SP and whichever members of the CP that haven't retired tend to be more firmly established in unionised industries and tend to rise to decent enough branch activists. It's the previously unionised workforces that the traditional unions tend to ignore that the syndicalist end of the spectrum have seemed to put their energies into: Cleaners; gig workers; warehousing; call centres; care; hospitality... Maybe it's reflective of the ages of the activists and the industries that they tend to end up in, or maybe its in part that the SWP/SP and whoever have become a little stale and are more comfortable and experienced in their own groove?


Yes of course , and i fully support the attempts to recruit , unionise and go for industrial action in those areas .My point was that this end of the  spectrum can't be exclusively  be  claimed as part of some anarchist hinterland.


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## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> No I don't think Lynch is tankie (if anything I heard he doesn't get along with the pro-CPB wing), he strikes me as self-consciously old-fashioned socialist. Worse things to be than that of course.


He is Connolly/Larkin supporting syndicalist type


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Over the last 10 years or so was my proviso.
> 
> The SWP/SP and whichever members of the CP that haven't retired tend to be more firmly established in unionised industries and tend to rise to decent enough branch activists. It's the previously unionised workforces that the traditional unions tend to ignore that the syndicalist end of the spectrum have seemed to put their energies into: Cleaners; gig workers; warehousing; call centres; care; hospitality... Maybe it's reflective of the ages of the activists and the industries that they tend to end up in, or maybe its in part that the SWP/SP and whoever have become a little stale and are more comfortable and experienced in their own groove?


The mainstream unions have had no idea how to deal with the rise of the gig economy - I don't actually think it's their fault as such, their expertise in such things couldn't survive the 1980s-00s which mostly left an older membership in relatively stable employment who were able to weather the onslaught. They were always going struggle to adapt. I used to talk to tech workers about this stuff who'd find themselves put in with print worker branches because there was nowhere for them to go. Not surprising that the spontaneous creation of new unions took place in the absence of existing presence, some of which included anarchist organisers (who temperamentally tend to _love_ anything new and grassroots) but the influence is often overstated, particularly over time.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Hedley would have been a mess just on his own merits afaics, let alone with his domestic abuse skeletons in the background - couldn't stop himself from trying to bully people on Facebook after a few beers for a start, which I couldn't see translating well to say, a wind-up interview with Piers Morgan.



Yeah I know he’s tainted by his history. 
But he was the only contender I was aware of and that is because he also has a very different history of action.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Anti fascism is the hard of edge of protecting working class interests. 
Book fairs not so much.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

And dare I say, book fairs seem to operate as the boss of thought not dissimilar to those they accuse.


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## Carl Steele (Jul 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Here you go, fill your boots:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only here could you mention anarchism and MMA in a post and be given an article about an anarchist MMA fighter An interesting guy though. Thanks for that hitmouse.

For some reason the article made me think of Dave Douglass who I met a few times during the Miners Strike. Douglass was a really good public speaker because he spoke in very concrete terms, managed to do without the jarring, incomprehensible jargon. Not sure if he called himself an anarchist but he was an IWW member and also a very nice guy.


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## nogojones (Jul 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Yes of course , and i fully support the attempts to recruit , unionise and go for industrial action in those areas .My point was that this end of the  spectrum can't be exclusively  be  claimed as part of some anarchist hinterland.


I did say a driving force, not the driving force


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Yeah Dave consider(s?) himself an anarchist though is plenty scathing about large parts of what it is atm (who isn't, I guess). He's fallen out with a lot of folks over the trans stuff and his views in favour of resurrecting the coal industry.


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## Sue (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The mainstream unions have had no idea how to deal with the rise of the gig economy - I don't actually think it's their fault as such, their expertise in such things couldn't survive the 1980s-00s which mostly left an older membership in relatively stable employment who were able to weather the onslaught. They were always going struggle to adapt. I used to talk to tech workers about this stuff who'd find themselves put in with print worker branches because there was nowhere for them to go. Not surprising that the spontaneous creation of new unions took place in the absence of existing presence, some of which included anarchist organisers (who temperamentally tend to _love_ anything new and grassroots) but the influence is often overstated, particularly over time.


I was a tech worker in a print union (there was actually a national branch for us, rather than a geographic one). They were pretty good and embraced the more mobile workforce pretty well. As well as organising v good training to make sure members kept up with tech skills. 

(We were unrecognised too which again was reasonably common in that branch if pretty unheard of elsewhere in the union.)


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## Carl Steele (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Yeah Dave consider(s?) himself an anarchist though is plenty scathing about large parts of what it is atm (who isn't, I guess). He's fallen out with a lot of folks over the trans stuff and his views in favour of resurrecting the coal industry.



What are his views on the trans stuff?


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Good to hear if headway's being made - I was hearing Unite had been pretty dreadful, while from seeing it first-hand the NUJ's been caught between some quite good reps and a membership based in the older outlets who got proper sneery about Internet Journalists.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> What are his views on the trans stuff?


Best not to get into it, not hard to find though.


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## cloudyday (Jul 8, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I did say a driving force, not the driving force



trots don’t do nuance


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Anti fascism is the hard of edge of protecting working class interests.
> Book fairs not so much.


Know much about it?


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think you could follow Paul's thinking and interests fairly easily if you followed his blog. He has deleted some posts on there now though. His previous and current positions both include a hostility to identity politics and liberals, for one. And in particular I think he was especially concerned about how these two failed to tackle Islamic extremism adequately.
> 
> I think if you add a pro-working class take on Brexit to the mix (with further disdain for the liberal left) and, I assume, the annoyances of trying to work in academia for a while, then I don't think it's that hard to understand.
> 
> I might be wrong, and I've only met the guy a couple of times in the noughties personally. As with Paul Embery there is a more cynical take which is that the money and clicks led them both in a particular direction, but Paul (ex-CW) was quite a talented guy imo and could have turned his hand to a bunch of different things.


My dialogue with him was narrow in focus, and I found him to be sincere in his beliefs, and very knowledgeable in particular areas.




hitmouse said:


> O I C


U R M T?

🤔


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Yes, perhaps I should go to the bookfair.
> 
> Actually it's quite soothing to follow a dispute upon which you are unable to form an opinion. The most enjoyable parts of the Joe Rogan podcasts I've watched are when he talks about MMA because I know even less about MMA than I do about contemporary British anarchist groups.
> 
> And to be clear I'm not being dismissive of anarchism as a political movement historically, I'm quite sympathetic to some of the basic tenets of anarchism, it's just that I know nothing about modern groups.


I'm not sure the way to work through the trauma of years-long Sparting is to pitch up at Bookfair: The Next Generation 🤣


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2022)

BABY STEPS, CARL! BABY STEPS!


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Personally I'm gonna treat the London bookfair like I do all the others, and the London bookfair before it - I've got my criticisms, but I'm not the one doing it and it's ultimately up to them how they run their thing. They don't have to justify themselves to me. So if it's bad, it's bad. If it's not then great. Either way, it's better than tumbleweed.


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> So why are you excluding the Woodcraft Folk huh? Don’t you want to span the world with friendship?


More of a Kibbo Kift man.


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Workfare was a good one back in the 2010s, Palestine Action's been doing some cracking work in a non-hierarchical way recently and I'll say our more legally-minded wing has had at least some good influence on the new green movement/XR folks. Anarchs are also the main driver against HS2 and have been very effective in shrinking its scope (much to the chagrin of the unions/trad left types who've been all in favour of the jobs it generates). Radical Routes as well has been been quietly plugging away and while the mutual aid surge during lockdown was way too much for us to effectively politicise it was in and of itself a powerful phenomenon.
> 
> I'll also say that between the likes of Sparrow's Nest, Libcom, the Kate Sharpley Library, the Anarchist Library etc we're probably better served in terms of access to the movement's archives and classic literature than we've ever been, and have by far a larger publishing presence between PM, AK, Active, Freedom etc even before getting to the extensive academic work that's going on. Hell there's at least 15 of 16 books I can think of which are out of coming out in the second half of this year alone _specifically_ _about_ anarchism (eg these, Nick Heath's book, Freedom's upcoming stuff from Brian Morris, Camillo Berneri etc), let alone which are analysing topics through an anarchist lens.
> 
> One other issue with our general trend to negativity is that a lot of anarchist influence is often too diffuse and underreported as  "ours" to properly lay credit for - or we refuse to do so/define it as non-anarchist when we could be doing so.


What we don't have anymore is populist media.  No Class War, SchNews, Indymedia, Undercurrents  etc


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## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What we don't have anymore is populist media.  No Class War, SchNews, Indymedia, Undercurrents  etc


Contraflow...


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## Rob Ray (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What we don't have anymore is populist media.  No Class War, SchNews, Indymedia, Undercurrents  etc


That whole thing is frustrating af and I've been banging on about it for ages where I can - the big trouble is that everyone mistakes having 500 people in a Facebook group who are active positive engagers with your campaign, or a couple thousand Twitter followers, for a genuine process of outreach. Which it ain't, it's echo chamberism. And it's screwing attempts to build sustainable indie outlets (Freedom included) that people can go to and find out about things which they wouldn't come across otherwise. It's also going to be an absolute bastard for future historians who'll simply not have access to the background info when it all gets deleted years later. All those photos, updates, videos etc from local Stop HS2 campaigns? Gone. 

But we were talking about the positives .


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Contraflow...


What is/was that?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What is/was that?


56@ news sheet?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What is/was that?


See eg 








						Contra Flow : Spirit of Revolt. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

Contra Flow,magazine, published in London by the European Counter Network (London). The European Counter Network was a project centred around sharing...



					archive.org


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## Carl Steele (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Best not to get into it, not hard to find though.



See what you mean! Not just Douglass though is it? And these bookfairs, my goodness me, dear oh dear. The Lutte Ouvrière fete was such a joy by comparison.



DaveCinzano said:


> BABY STEPS, CARL! BABY STEPS!



Baby steps, in which direction would you suggest?


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Baby steps, in which direction would you suggest?


The nearest Spoons is the traditional close-to-but-not-in-Bookfair staging post 😉


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Know much about it?



About Red Action being more successful than the book fair in terms of protecting working class interests?
Probably as much as you.


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## kenny g (Jul 8, 2022)

I will probably go this year but it is disappointing the wonderful mix of previous years will probably be missing. I can remember seeing Dave Douglas haranguing his audience for not supporting coal and having a chat with another stall holder who agreed with my joke proposition that David Cameron's big society made him more of an @ than most of the attendees.


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> About Red Action being more successful than the book fair in terms of protecting working class interests?
> Probably as much as you.


Got anything from the last thirty years?


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## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I'd say the opposite with the CP - they had closet members and/or the ear of leaders in most of the major unions through to probably the late 2000s/early 2010s when the SP made headway with the new generation. They had a lot of good (and a fair number of not very good) shop stewards but they weren't in any way into flat union structures. They're still very influential within the RMT, TSSA and various others.


Stewards committees were full of them 1970s and 1980s  as were Trade Councils. The split in the CP/fall of the USSR and the wall and Thatchesr successful gutting of the unions put paid to them.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Got anything from the last thirty years?



Didn’t AFA follow?


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Didn’t AFA follow?


No , they always led from the front.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> No , they always led from the front.



Red Action, like them or loathe them, have written politics that we can refer to. 
What about AFN?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Hahaha


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Red Action, like them or loathe them, have written politics that we can refer to.
> What about AFN?


 
Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Where is your politics?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

It might seem trite. But given how the book fair doesn’t seem to know what it stands for, all we have is you pinning your colours to the mast.


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## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Where is your politics?


Don't have any, just a balaclava and a well thumbed pack of Tarot cards.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Don't have any, just a balaclava and a well thumbed pack of Tarot cards.



You could just answer the question.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You could just answer the question.


I'll do you a spread.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> I'll do you a spread.



So it’s a bit like the book fair. None of us really know what’s going on apart from those in the know.
Good luck.


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## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Got anything from the last thirty years?


FLAF


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## RD2003 (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> AFN , Anti GM crops, squatting Deripaskas mansion, Smash Elbit (or whatever they're calling it), a load of stuff on the HS2.
> 
> 
> We're down but not out.


Hippy stuff.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What we don't have anymore is populist media.  No Class War, SchNews, Indymedia, Undercurrents  etc


None of this was populist in any real sense. Probably 99% of the population had never heard of any of it.


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## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh but the now defunct North East Anarchists are disliked by The North East Anarchist Group.


I get quite confused by this - and I used to be in one of them.


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## cloudyday (Jul 8, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> I'll do you a spread.


something about pain, bondage, and the inescapable return of millenarian prophets.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 9, 2022)

Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised. An 'anarchist' movement/scene which can't possibly 'catch on' due to its own contradictions and self-reinforcing limitations, and which is, when you look at reality, deeply unappealing to the average low-paid, pressurised worker, and thus can never grow and never will, cannot possibly affect this.

Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.


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## TopCat (Jul 9, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Hedley would have been a mess just on his own merits afaics, let alone with his domestic abuse skeletons in the background - couldn't stop himself from trying to bully people on Facebook after a few beers for a start, which I couldn't see translating well to say, a wind-up interview with Piers Morgan.


He offered me out on facebook after a mild criticism. Must have been pissed as he blocked me in the morning.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.



I can imagine all these things, yes.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised. An 'anarchist' movement/scene which can't possibly 'catch on' due to its own contradictions and self-reinforcing limitations, and which is, when you look at reality, deeply unappealing to the average low-paid, pressurised worker, and thus can never grow and never will, cannot possibly affect this.
> 
> Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.


Can't imagine any of those workers leaving one of your posts with a sense of inspiration or hope.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I can imagine all these things, yes.


The hope that springs eternal ...........


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> The nearest Spoons is the traditional close-to-but-not-in-Bookfair staging post 😉


We've often joked here about the battle of Holloway Road. But I wonder if there'll be a battle of Liverpool Street station between visitors to the bookfair and some of the less progressive football fans who pass through the station and the Hamilton Hall going to and coming from matches.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> None of this was populist in any real sense. Probably 99% of the population had never heard of any of it.





RD2003 said:


> Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised.


Yes, there are people of this political tradition involved in unionising in some workplaces. Yes, it is also the case that vast sections of the economy remain non-unionised. Not quite sure this is a killer point, unless you're arguing against someone who's claimed that anarchists/syndicalists have organised the entire British workforce?


Pickman's model said:


> We've often joked here about the battle of Holloway Road. But I wonder if there'll be a battle of Liverpool Street station between visitors to the bookfair and some of the less progressive football fans who pass through the station and the Hamilton Hall going to and coming from matches.


I can't see why there'd need to be football fans involved, I would think that bookfair visitors would be capable of staging a perfectly good battle on their own?


----------



## LDC (Jul 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Is there any concrete evidence of anarchist/syndicalist reponsibility for the unionisation of marginalised workers? I don't doubt the involvement of people who are in this political tradition in some workplaces, by committed individuals and/or small groups. But that leaves the problem of the vast swathes that remain non-unionised. An 'anarchist' movement/scene which can't possibly 'catch on' due to its own contradictions and self-reinforcing limitations, and which is, when you look at reality, deeply unappealing to the average low-paid, pressurised worker, and thus can never grow and never will, cannot possibly affect this.
> 
> Can anybody imagine an English, let alone east European, Moroccan, Iraqi or whatever, call-centre worker or Amazon driver going away from an anarchist bookfair with a sense of inspiration or hope? Not that they'd be there in the first place.



Aside from the sweeping, inaccurate, and suspect generalisation in the last bit (which is also clearly nonsense) I think you're mistaking a fragment of the anarchist movement (the more modern, smaller, and more obvious sub-cultural scene) with the wider politics that bubbles away mostly outside that. Anarchists have also been present as part of revolutions, social movement, and struggles (including union ones) and as such have often been the ones pushing for more radical and militant action when others are more reticent. So I'd argue that pretty much _any_ gains made by these struggles over the decades (and still are ongoing) can in large part be put down to the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I can't see why there'd need to be football fans involved, I would think that bookfair visitors would be capable of staging a perfectly good battle on their own?


Anyone who was in the coronet before the battle of Holloway Road will recall the sound system which closed down the pub. And the smashing of same by other anarchists. You're right, it's perfectly possible there could be some internal confrontation as there was in 2017. But here there is also a greater chance of a scrap with other groups in the area than usual. So not either or but and


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The CP and  the IS/SWP tradition of shop stewards committees and rank and file have as much claim to that 'end of the spectrum' as the anarchists. Probably more so as I cant recall members of either the CP or IS being anti trade union





The39thStep said:


> Yes of course , and i fully support the attempts to recruit , unionise and go for industrial action in those areas .My point was that this end of the  spectrum can't be exclusively  be  claimed as part of some anarchist hinterland.


Going back to this as a perhaps more interesting avenue of discussion, I'd tend to agree with what Rob Ray and nogojones said above - looking specifically at the past decade or so, there has been some very valuable stuff from the construction r'n'f, which I'd guess probably has more people who've at least passed through the SP or SWP than it has anarchists? But beyond that, there's the IWGB/UVW/CAIWU stuff, which is definitely very far from trot, let alone CP, traditions, since as I understand it the normal UK trot line has always been that setting up new unions is self-indulgent subcultural stuff and you should be working in the mainstream unions where all the workers are (even if they're not).

I dunno, it's just interesting to me that I think for a while there was the debate between trots who argued for working in the existing unions, and then wob/SolFed types who argued that there was fertile grounds for organising outside them... and then what actually happened with the IWGB and UVW sort of vindicated the IWW and SolFed, but then again it sort of very much didn't, because the majority of organising that happened didn't take place through those groups either.


----------



## LDC (Jul 9, 2022)

Something from the whole anarchists and unions debate.









						Outside and Against the Unions
					

Wildcat Outside and Against the Unions A communist response to Dave Douglass’ text “Refracted Perspective”




					theanarchistlibrary.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2022)

LDC said:


> Something from the whole anarchists and unions debate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From 30 years ago


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Going back to this as a perhaps more interesting avenue of discussion, I'd tend to agree with what Rob Ray and nogojones said above - looking specifically at the past decade or so, there has been some very valuable stuff from the construction r'n'f, which I'd guess probably has more people who've at least passed through the SP or SWP than it has anarchists? But beyond that, there's the IWGB/UVW/CAIWU stuff, which is definitely very far from trot, let alone CP, traditions, since as I understand it the normal UK trot line has always been that setting up new unions is self-indulgent subcultural stuff and you should be working in the mainstream unions where all the workers are (even if they're not).
> 
> I dunno, it's just interesting to me that I think for a while there was the debate between trots who argued for working in the existing unions, and then wob/SolFed types who argued that there was fertile grounds for organising outside them... and then what actually happened with the IWGB and UVW sort of vindicated the IWW and SolFed, but then again it sort of very much didn't, because the majority of organising that happened didn't take place through those groups either.


It's definitely worthy of a longer discussion and yes you are correct about the initial response from both SWP and SP to the 'new unions'. I know a couple of people involved in the construction stuff and although never members of Trot groups themselves they are heavily influenced by 'rank and file-ism' ( one has a father who was in the IS/SWP Buiding Workers group and the other has intermittently been on the periphery of the SP )  BTW I glanced at the Angry Worker's site recently to find them discussing Jonathan Neale's book , Memoirs of a Callous Picket. Neale was an SWP member when he wrote it . 

UNITE's recent call to rebuild a shop stewards movement is an exciting proposition for anyone interested in militant rank and file activity, and with the potential to draw in and potentially create a whole new layer of w/class activists.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 9, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Good to hear if headway's being made - I was hearing Unite had been pretty dreadful, while from seeing it first-hand the NUJ's been caught between some quite good reps and a membership based in the older outlets who got proper sneery about Internet Journalists.


I organise journalists including freelancers and we have just signed up our first couple of professional YouTubers.


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## cloudyday (Jul 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> UNITE's recent call to rebuild a shop stewards movement is an exciting proposition for anyone interested in militant rank and file activity, and with the potential to draw in and potentially create a whole new layer of w/class activists.



The hope that springs eternal ...........


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2022)

cloudyday said:


> The hope that springs eternal ...........


Blockhead


----------



## nogojones (Jul 9, 2022)

TopCat said:


> He offered me out on facebook after a mild criticism. Must have been pissed as he blocked me in the morning.


Date night spoiled


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Hippy stuff.


Ooh you're hard.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 9, 2022)

TopCat said:


> He offered me out on facebook after a mild criticism. Must have been pissed as he blocked me in the morning.


Similar, friended and blocked in the same fortnight iirc.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 10, 2022)

LDC said:


> Aside from the sweeping, inaccurate, and suspect generalisation in the last bit (which is also clearly nonsense) I think you're mistaking a fragment of the anarchist movement (the more modern, smaller, and more obvious sub-cultural scene) with the wider politics that bubbles away mostly outside that. Anarchists have also been present as part of revolutions, social movement, and struggles (including union ones) and as such have often been the ones pushing for more radical and militant action when others are more reticent. So I'd argue that pretty much _any_ gains made by these struggles over the decades (and still are ongoing) can in large part be put down to the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.


Generalisations perhaps, but nothing suspect. I was trying to imagine what any hard-pressed worker in the zero-hours contract etc segment of the economy would make of the madness that, at least from what you read on here, goes on at anarchist bookfairs (this being a thread about an anarchist bookfair, and similar to all the other threads on the subject over the years). In particular, I can't imagine workers from elsewhere being too impressed, especially if they come from places where political insanity and pointless factionalism etc has real, life-destroying consequences.

Are you really trying to argue that strikes, social struggles and even revolutions which have been victorious or partially successful have been so due to the contribution of anarchists, when they are so few in number, and all but invisible/ not even present in most that you could mention. It would, for example be stretching it a bit to say that the successful strikes of 1970s Britain, or the initially successful (at least in terms of achieving power and raising the living standards of the poorest) Cuban or Sandinista revolutions, say, was due to 'the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.'

I do think that anarchist theory and practice has something to offer, but have met literally nobody outside the organised far-left who knows what that theory or practice is, or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 11, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I get quite confused by this - and I used to be in one of them.



I can think of one individual who was in both! Lol


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 11, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Generalisations perhaps, but nothing suspect. I was trying to imagine what any hard-pressed worker in the zero-hours contract etc segment of the economy would make of the madness that, at least from what you read on here, goes on at anarchist bookfairs (this being a thread about an anarchist bookfair, and similar to all the other threads on the subject over the years). In particular, I can't imagine workers from elsewhere being too impressed, especially if they come from places where political insanity and pointless factionalism etc has real, life-destroying consequences.
> 
> Are you really trying to argue that strikes, social struggles and even revolutions which have been victorious or partially successful have been so due to the contribution of anarchists, when they are so few in number, and all but invisible/ not even present in most that you could mention. It would, for example be stretching it a bit to say that the successful strikes of 1970s Britain, or the initially successful (at least in terms of achieving power and raising the living standards of the poorest) Cuban or Sandinista revolutions, say, was due to 'the intransigence of anarchists in their militancy.'
> 
> I do think that anarchist theory and practice has something to offer, but have met literally nobody outside the organised far-left who knows what that theory or practice is, or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did.


Cuba had a large anarchist movement, Castro closed it down with his "successful" revolution. "or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did." You need to get out a bit more. RE doing work around "hard-pressed workers in the zero -hours segment" I and other anarchists have long helped and given solidarity over a long period of time, turning out for IWW, UVW, CAIWU and IWGB actions. Apart from the pointless insanity as demonstrated on this thread, there are serious class struggle anarchists out there attempting to face towards the class and out of the ghetto.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 11, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Cuba had a large anarchist movement, Castro closed it down with his "successful" revolution. "or have even met an anarchist or would recognise one as such if they did." You need to get out a bit more. RE doing work around "hard-pressed workers in the zero -hours segment" I and other anarchists have long helped and given solidarity over a long period of time, turning out for IWW, UVW, CAIWU and IWGB actions. Apart from the pointless insanity as demonstrated on this thread, there are serious class struggle anarchists out there attempting to face towards the class and out of the ghetto.


I don't doubt you have been helping out and giving solidarity. I acknowledged that anarchists do this. But it doesn't alter the fact that nobody outside the radical left would recognise a class-struggle anarchist if they fell over them. And the obvious flaws in the thinking and practice absolutely guarantees that it will remain completely invisible to the overwhelming majority.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 11, 2022)

and may I enquire what are these "obvious flaws"? Are you a Leninist , by the way?


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 11, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> and may I enquire what are these "obvious flaws"? Are you a Leninist , by the way?


30-odd years ago, I might have called myself a Leninist, although I was probably a shit one, and never entirely convinced by it.

Without trying to go into it too much, as I know only the very basics (always having considered it permanently marginal, I never bothered learning more), I'd say the flaws are obvious in that a mass movement has never arisen out of anarchist practice aside from in a handful of places. Where it has had some success, it ended up getting fucked over from left and right.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 11, 2022)

So you admit you know very little about it, and can't be bothered to actually familiarise yourself with it. You also know very little about history of the movement, and where it became a mass movement or was influential, in far more areas than you seem to believe. Of course it got fucked over when it became successful, that's what happens under capitalism, and will remain so until capitalism ends.  You seem to be talking out of your arse. my friend.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 11, 2022)

Anyway, good luck to this bookfair.  Hope they have a good day.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 11, 2022)

I’m serious. Good luck to them.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 11, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> So you admit you know very little about it, and can't be bothered to actually familiarise yourself with it. You also know very little about history of the movement, and where it became a mass movement or was influential, in far more areas than you seem to believe. Of course it got fucked over when it became successful, that's what happens under capitalism, and will remain so until capitalism ends.  You seem to be talking out of your arse. my friend.


I don't see the point of a drawn-out debate on it, as I feel certain that in 50 years time, assuming society is still intact, people will still be having a debate about whether anarchism will ever achieve a breakthrough, and I'm not going to convince anybody here of anything anyway, nor seek to.

But if the only kind of mass movement you envisage gets fucked over by capitalism every time, then capitalism will surely never end. Or at least not at the hands of anrachism-influenced revolution.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 11, 2022)

Maybe start a thread about how to fight the state without fighting the state.  (Or whatever it is you are asking).  Leave this thread to the bookfair.


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Maybe start a thread about how to fight the state without fighting the state.  (Or whatever it is you are asking).  Leave this thread to the bookfair.


If the bookfair are going to run this thread themselves do we need to register?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 11, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> But if the only kind of mass movement you envisage gets fucked over by capitalism every time, then capitalism will surely never end. Or at least not at the hands of anrachism-influenced revolution.


I mean, at the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, capitalism has not ended. That means that any possible discussion of anti-capitalist strategies is going to be limited to discussing strategies that have not yet been proven to be successful on a large enough scale.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, at the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, capitalism has not ended. That means that any possible discussion of anti-capitalist strategies is going to be limited to discussing strategies that have not yet been proven to be successful on a large enough scale.


and there could be no better place for a dog to chase it's tail than here


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> and there could be no better place for a dog to chase it's tail than heherea


A running dog perhaps


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 11, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, at the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, capitalism has not ended. That means that any possible discussion of anti-capitalist strategies is going to be limited to discussing strategies that have not yet been proven to be successful on a large enough scale.



But capitalism did end in large parts of the world.  The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam etc. It may not have ended in the way we anticipated or wished it had ended but nevertheless capitalism was overthrown. And it didn't always result in better societies than the ones which preceded it, though that is debatable. And the overthrow of capitalism was not final, it made a comeback.

"Theory my friend is grey but green is the eternal tree of life."  As I recall.


----------



## belboid (Jul 11, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> But capitalism did end in large parts of the world.  The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam etc. It may not have ended in the way we anticipated or wished it had ended but nevertheless capitalism was overthrown. And it didn't always result in better societies than the ones which preceded it, though that is debatable. And the overthrow of capitalism was not final, it made a comeback.
> 
> "Theory my friend is grey but green is the eternal tree of life."  As I recall.


Ooh, is it panto season already?


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 11, 2022)

belboid said:


> Ooh, is it panto season already?


Serious answers only please. Are you going to  talk about state capitalism?


----------



## belboid (Jul 11, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Serious answers only please. Are you going to  talk about state capitalism?


I’m perfectly serious. You may have noticed this is the _Anarchist_ Bookfair thread. I’m pretty sure there are no anarchists-stalinists left here.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 11, 2022)

belboid said:


> I’m perfectly serious. You may have noticed this is the _Anarchist_ Bookfair thread. I’m pretty sure there are no anarchists-stalinists left here.


I replied to a direct quote. Why do you object to what I said and not what was in the quote?


----------



## belboid (Jul 11, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I replied to a direct quote. Why do you object to what I said and not what was in the quote?


Because it’s right and you’re wrong


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 11, 2022)

belboid said:


> Because it’s right and you’re wrong


This is the answer of a four year-old. What am I wrong about?


----------



## belboid (Jul 11, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> This is the answer of a four year-old. What am I wrong about?


Are you really this thick? I quoted the paragraph you wrote because it is nonsense, one begging for the response ‘ohh no it didn’t’.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 11, 2022)

belboid said:


> Are you really this thick? I quoted the paragraph you wrote because it is nonsense, one begging for the response ‘ohh no it didn’t’.


Was capitalism overthrown in Russia and China and Vietnam and Cuba?


----------



## belboid (Jul 11, 2022)

Start a different thread if you must


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 11, 2022)

belboid said:


> Start a different thread if you must


I replied to a quote on this thread, maybe your complaint is misplaced.


----------



## chilango (Jul 11, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Was capitalism overthrown in Russia and China and Vietnam and Cuba?


No.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jul 11, 2022)

Ok. So I'm thinking of going to the anarchist bookfair this year. Is it any good?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 11, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok. So I'm thinking of going to the anarchist bookfair this year. Is it any good?


Depends what you're after. Talks are usually good, impromptu fighting sometimes improves it depending on the quality of beef.
There's usually pubs close by.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> impromptu fighting sometimes improves it depending on the quality of beef.



I think I see how this happens.



chilango said:


> No.



Well, the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken.


----------



## chilango (Jul 12, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok. So I'm thinking of going to the anarchist bookfair this year. Is it any good?


I've enjoyed it when I've been.


----------



## chilango (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Well, the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken.


They're probably the wrong people whose opinions to seek on the matter.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Well, the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken.



Hi Carl, I'm getting in touch because something came across my desk Carl, it is perhaps the best investment opportunity I've seen in the last six months. It's a bridge Carl, a bridge in London ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Well, the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken.


There have  been so many times governments get things wrong I wouldn't rely on their pronouncements, which may in any case be made for dramatic effect


----------



## kenny g (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I think I see how this happens.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken.


Always best to ask the pigs whether you are free...


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Hi Carl, I'm getting in touch because something came across my desk Carl, it is perhaps the best investment opportunity I've seen in the last six months. It's a bridge Carl, a bridge in London ...



Thank you, and on the other hand there is nothing so blinding as ideology ...



chilango said:


> They're probably the wrong people whose opinions to seek on the matter.



I think it's probably a good idea to take some notice of what the people leading revolutions say. Castro in 1959 was quite clear that the objective of the revolution was _not_ to overthrow capitalism but when his hoped for rapprochement with the USA didn't work out he changed course.



Pickman's model said:


> There have been so many times governments get things wrong I wouldn't rely on their pronouncements, which may in any case be made for dramatic effect



This is of course true but I do think capitalist governments know what capitalism is, and what it is not. Though to offer an olive branch I do think state capitalism is a reasonable description of modern China, by which I mean China of the last 20 years or so, and the West continues to talk about Communist China.



kenny g said:


> Always best to ask the pigs whether you are free...



Overthrowing capitalism does not guarantee freedom.


----------



## kenny g (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Thank you, and on the other hand there is nothing so blinding as ideology ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And your point is?


----------



## chilango (Jul 12, 2022)

I'm deliberately keeping my answers short Carl Steele because I think a serious discussion of the topic deserves its own thread. But then, to be quite honest, I'm not sure I'm interested enough to take part in such a thread. Sorry!


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

kenny g said:


> And your point is?



Exactly.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

chilango said:


> I'm deliberately keeping my answers short @Carl Steele because I think a serious discussion of the topic deserves its own thread. But then, to be quite honest, I'm not sure I'm interested enough to take part in such a thread. Sorry!



That's fair enough.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> there is nothing so blinding as ideology ..


Indeed. Sometimes people are so immersed in it that they might read the basic tenets of communism, look at a State which has none of those features, and still call it communism using the excuse that the autocratic leaders of that State said so, with enthusiastic support from people who have everything to gain from associating alternative ideas with brutality.

(NB// on the grounds of being slightly more helpful than _just _making sarcastic comments, I'd recommend The Bolsheviks and Workers' Control for further reading on this topic. It outlines fairly well the disconnect between the rhetoric of the Bolsheviks and their actions in diverting the Russian revolution towards their own ends very early on in the process. Such disconnects are a feature of pretty much every Leninist ousting of prior governments, utilising the language but crucially, not the practice of the ideologies they hung their hats on).


----------



## A380 (Jul 12, 2022)

belboid said:


> Are you really this thick? I quoted the paragraph you wrote because it is nonsense, one begging for the response ‘ohh no it didn’t’.



The thread has moved on. It’s behind you.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Indeed. Sometimes people are so immersed in it that they might read the basic tenets of communism, look at a State which has none of those features, and still call it communism using the excuse that the autocratic leaders of that State said so, with enthusiastic support from people who have everything to gain from associating alternative ideas with brutality.



I don't know who you think you are talking to. I don't think the Soviet Union, for example, was a communist state. I don't even like the designation workers state. But I don't think it was capitalist either. Bureaucratic Collectivism as a descriptor seems better though don't take that to mean I buy the whole theory.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

I think I'm talking to someone who up thread made a patently ridiculous appeal to authority that "the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> This is of course true but I do think capitalist governments know what capitalism is, and what it is not. Though to offer an olive branch I do think state capitalism is a reasonable description of modern China, by which I mean China of the last 20 years or so, and the West continues to talk about Communist China.


i wouldnt advise approaching any current cabinet members and asking what they think capitalism is, you'd be spittle-flecked and none the wiser as they sought to baffle you with bollocks


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I don't know who you think you are talking to. I don't think the Soviet Union, for example, was a communist state. I don't even like the designation workers state. But I don't think it was capitalist either. Bureaucratic Collectivism as a descriptor seems better though don't take that to mean I buy the whole theory.


Degenerated workers state ftw


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> think I'm talking to someone who up thread made a patently ridiculous appeal to authority that "the leaders of the revolutions thought they had overthrown capitalism. And the governments of the so-called Western world agreed. Perhaps they were mistaken."



Chill out Rob, it was a throwaway line, not scientific to be sure, but not worth all the froth. 



Pickman's model said:


> Degenerated workers state ftw



Never really liked this, not even when I was a card carrier, deformed workers state is worse, North Korea and Tito's Yugoslavia were not quite the same.



Pickman's model said:


> i wouldnt advise approaching any current cabinet members and asking what they think capitalism is, you'd be spittle-flecked and none the wiser as they sought to baffle you with bollocks



Rest assured, the chances of me approaching any current cabinet members are remote.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 12, 2022)

For Carl Steele this is what the end of capitalism looks like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Never really liked this, not even when I was a card carrier, deformed workers state is worse, North Korea and Tito's Yugoslavia were not quite the same.


i wasn't being wholly serious


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Chill out Rob, it was a throwaway line, not scientific to be sure, but not worth all the froth.


I'm entirely chill ta, and not the one indignantly squeaking about whether I know who I'm talking to.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

This is a debate that can never go anywhere. Simplifying somewhat, only the Stalinists called what existed in the Communist Party-ruled states socialism. The orthodox Trots had their degenerated workers' state theory, and there were the various state capitalism and bureaucratic collectivism theories. The rest of the world's population thought it was communism, or at least socialism, if only because that's what the rulers of those states claimed, with the wholehearted agreement of those who ran the rest of the world. They are the overwhelming majority who will never be convinced that it wasn't, not least because enough minds can't be reached by those who argue otherwise. We now have a world where confusion on the matter reigns as never before, to the extent that scores of millions believe those on the Right who claim that everything they don't like about contemporary society is creeping communism or socialism or at least an attempt to foist it on everybody. This is despite the fact that much of what their 'Woke' enemies stand for would have got you locked up in the countries where Communist parties actually ruled.

There is literally nothing anybody can do about this.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 12, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> There is literally nothing anybody can do about this



That's your reply to damn near everything.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

NoXion said:


> That's your reply to damn near everything.


Perhaps, but maybe because its largely true.


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## NoXion (Jul 12, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Perhaps, but maybe because its largely true.



That's why feudalism never ended, and we've been stuck with the divine right of kings ever since.

Oh wait, you're wrong, never mind.


----------



## belboid (Jul 12, 2022)

Ohh fuck, haven’t we missed LLETSA’s one track miserabilism


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

NoXion said:


> That's why feudalism never ended, and we've been stuck with the divine right of kings ever since.
> 
> Oh wait, you're wrong, never mind.


Did I say that nothing changes, or imply the obvious: that there are plenty of insoluble problems on the horizon?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 12, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

belboid said:


> Ohh fuck, haven’t we missed LLETSA’s one track miserabilism


back in the days when the rcp still existed i had a conversation with one of their adherents members, who was very similar in outlook to our resident miserabilist - not paying the poll tax - won't work, it's an individual gesture - boycotting mcdonald's, won't work it's an individual gesture etc etc etc ad nauseam.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 12, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Did I say that nothing changes, or imply the obvious: that there are plenty of insoluble problems on the horizon?



If we all gave up like you, then all problems would become "insoluble".


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> This is a debate that can never go anywhere. Simplifying somewhat, only the Stalinists called what existed in the Communist Party-ruled states socialism. The orthodox Trots had their degenerated workers' state theory, and there were the various state capitalism and bureaucratic collectivism theories. The rest of the world's population thought it was communism, or at least socialism, if only because that's what the rulers of those states claimed, with the wholehearted agreement of those who ran the rest of the world. They are the overwhelming majority who will never be convinced that it wasn't, not least because enough minds can't be reached by those who argue otherwise. We now have a world where confusion on the matter reigns as never before, to the extent that scores of millions believe those on the Right who claim that everything they don't like about contemporary society is creeping communism or socialism or at least an attempt to foist it on everybody. This is despite the fact that much of what their 'Woke' enemies stand for would have got you locked up in the countries where Communist parties actually ruled.
> 
> There is literally nothing anybody can do about this.


the best thing about this post is the correct use of reigns, so often people nowadays use rein for a monarch's tenure and reign for the straps you use to control a horse.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 12, 2022)

I think LDC  has had a word with The Customer Support Collective at The Bookfair


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

NoXion said:


> If we all gave up like you, then all problems would become "insoluble".


I'm not suggesting anybody should give up anything.

Perhaps you, or somebody, could make a start by having a go at explaining how the world can be convinced that what existed in certain places was not communism or socialism, and how most of what currently gets labelled as such by the Right (who are winning the argument) simply could not have existed or survived where Communist parties ruled? And the mechanisms that could be employed for spreading the truth?


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the best thing about this post is the correct use of reigns, so often people nowadays use rein for a monarch's tenure and reign for the straps you use to control a horse.


I blame trendy teaching methods, wilful dumbing down, and the abolition of grammar schools.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I think LDC  has had a word with The Customer Support Collective at The Bookfair
> 
> View attachment 331866


it's really weird that capitalist enterprises might have sent a similar email to lisa in the first place but that some anarchist groups, who aim to promote a better way of doing things than capitalism, have to be pushed and prodded to put a spot of flesh on the word 'disinclined'. as far as i know this is the first time that someone's part-time job has been held against them - no one, for example, ever took me to task when for a time i worked for a bank, or for working for local government or for working in a pub or whatnot. when there's no suggestion that lisa's adopted or shares in any way the values of her employers it seems to me really shit. but there you go, after last year's acg barring i suppose i would have been overly optimistic to expect they wouldn't top that little clusterfuck.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> back in the days when the rcp still existed i had a conversation with one of their adherents members, who was very similar in outlook to our resident miserabilist - not paying the poll tax - won't work, it's an individual gesture - boycotting mcdonald's, won't work it's an individual gesture etc etc etc ad nauseam.


Whereas back at the time I thought pretty much the opposite, not that it matters now.

But those are examples of what can feasibly be changed. I was referring to something which quite obviously can't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Wheras back at the time I thought pretty much the opposite, not that it matters now.
> 
> But those are examples of what can feasibly be changed. I was referring to something which quite obviously can't.


there are actually very few things that can't be changed.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> there are actually very few things that can't be changed.


Well as I say to Noxion above, a start could be made right here by explaining how the tiny numbers who have a coherent critique of 'actually existing socialism' can reach the hundreds of millions, or more likely billions, who have never been exposed to it, and believe instead that it was communism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Well as I say to Noxion above, a start could be made right here by explaining how the tiny numbers who have a coherent critique of 'actually existing socialism' can reach the hundreds of millions, or more likely billions, who have never been exposed to it, and believe instead that it was communism.


there is a notion abroad in the country that jeremy corbyn is some sort of hard-left stalin in waiting, a marxist who would have brought the country to its knees if he had been elected, who would have made of this country some bolshevik dystopian nightmare. i have had this sort of thing said to me by people who really ought to know better. and all corbyn was proposing was some gentle social democracy. frankly i'd rather work towards countering the notion that corbyn's a Communist, instead of looking back at the soviet union etc and arguing over that. there are very few things that cannot be changed, but it's as well to change the things which are more relevant to people's everyday lives before going back to arguments which mean fuck all to at least half the country - the average age in the uk being now 41, and pretty much no one of that age and under will recall the eastern bloc with any great clarity whereas a far larger number will recall with varying degrees of loathing the labour party under jeremy corbyn.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> there is a notion abroad in the country that jeremy corbyn is some sort of hard-left stalin in waiting, a marxist who would have brought the country to its knees if he had been elected, who would have made of this country some bolshevik dystopian nightmare. i have had this sort of thing said to me by people who really ought to know better. and all corbyn was proposing was some gentle social democracy. frankly i'd rather work towards countering the notion that corbyn's a Communist, instead of looking back at the soviet union etc and arguing over that. there are very few things that cannot be changed, but it's as well to change the things which are more relevant to people's everyday lives before going back to arguments which mean fuck all to at least half the country - the average age in the uk being now 41, and pretty much no one of that age and under will recall the eastern bloc with any great clarity whereas a far larger number will recall with varying degrees of loathing the labour party under jeremy corbyn.


Fair enough, but it is rarely long before the argument gets back to the idea, disseminated by the Right, that the outcome of Corbyn would be the sytem that existed in the Soviet bloc. Despite, as I said, simultaneous accusations that Corbyn is 'woke.' The Right's argument is, as many of them know, incoherent, but it is effective. The fact that most of the population can't even remember the Soviet Union might actually make it more powerful.

There are tens of millions going about their business right now, distantly believing the laughable idea that the USSR imposed 'woke' or 'politically correct' notions on society.


----------



## chilango (Jul 12, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> For Carl Steele this is what the end of capitalism looks like.


I've got some Cuban money with Che Guevara on it somewhere.

...and Mao on some Chinese notes.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> For @Carl Steele this is what the end of capitalism looks like.



I rather enjoyed 1980s Radio Albania I must admit.



Rob Ray said:


> I'm entirely chill ta, and not the one indignantly squeaking about whether I know who I'm talking to.



So this what you're like when you're relaxed. Ever considered the Spartacist League?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> So this what you're like when you're relaxed. Ever considered the Spartacist League?


Tbh I'm wondering what clean-livin' bit of the internet you usually frequent that you think I'm being notably aggy.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Tbh I'm wondering what clean-livin' bit of the internet you usually frequent that you think I'm being notably aggy.



I have never been to an anarchist book fair but I'm led to believe they sometimes end in fist fights. Is this true and if so why do you think it happens?


----------



## Lurdan (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> no one, for example, ever took me to task when for a time i worked for a bank, or for working for local government or for working in a pub or whatnot.



What? 


View attachment Iron Door.mp4


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I have never been to an anarchist book fair but I'm led to believe they sometimes end in fist fights. Is this true and if so why do you think it happens?


Usually it's because a feud has been building up for the last year between people who don't usually see each other in person. Why do you ask?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Usually it's because a feud has been building up for the last year between people who don't usually see each other in person. Why do you ask?


That and the prize money.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Usually it's because a feud has been building up for the last year between people who don't usually see each other in person. Why do you ask?


I'm just trying to get a feel for the culture. On the Trot left physical violence is officially frowned upon (not to say it never happens but when it does it's a big deal).


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

There isn't a unified culture of anarchism, as there isn't a party line. Some groups are okay with being a bit fighty, some aren't.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I'm just trying to get a feel for the culture. On the Trot left physical violence is officially frowned upon (not to say it never happens but when it does it's a big deal).


to be sadly fair few of the scraps can really be honestly described as fist fights. much more often they're what other people might refer to as handbags at six paces. although there was some violence at the battle of holloway road it was really nothing more than you'd see on a quiet saturday night in north finchley. so don't get your hopes up about these fist fights, they're really not all that much to see.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I'm just trying to get a feel for the culture. On the Trot left physical violence is officially frowned upon (not to say it never happens but when it does it's a big deal).



It’s not always between anarchists, there’s sometimes undesirable interlopers. That list appears to grow by the year though.


----------



## A380 (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I have never been to an anarchist book fair but I'm led to believe they sometimes end in fist fights. Is this true and if so why do you think it happens?


It's like a picnic compared to that time the Amersham and District Green Party and the Three Rivers Liberal Democrats' conferences were double booked at the Watersmeet centre in 2015. Herts police had to call in seven Met TSGs on mutual aid to get a grip of that one...


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## A380 (Jul 12, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s not always between anarchists, there’s sometimes undesirable interlopers. That list appears to grow by the year though.


Did they not get a stall?


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## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

belboid said:


> Ohh fuck, haven’t we missed LLETSA’s one track miserabilism


Are we in uncharted waters yet a fucking ‘gen?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I have never been to an anarchist book fair but I'm led to believe they sometimes end in fist fights. Is this true and if so why do you think it happens?


More often really rubbish scuffles with shouting and rushing about.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> More often really rubbish scuffles with shouting and rushing about.


but we like to call them fist fights so it sounds more exciting


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## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

Are Active Distribution having a stall?


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## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

I hear the LARC will be hosting a talk by Lisa Mackenzie regarding the new book she is involved in on the same afternoon.


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## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

okay, that's clear, sometimes people get upset with each other but nobody really gets hurt. The only act of violence I saw in my time on the left was when a woman member of Workers Power smashed a beer glass over the head of a Spart. She was a medical doctor and very lucky to be protected by the refusal of the left to use the courts - she could have lost her job.


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## charlie mowbray (Jul 12, 2022)

Jeezus, you never came across the Socialist Labour League/Workers Revolutionary Party and their regular use of violence against dissidents. And that was their fucking leader Gerry Healy who administered it himself on occasions


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Jeezus, you never came across the Socialist Labour League/Workers Revolutionary Party and their regular use of violence against dissidents. And that was their fucking leader Gerry Healy who administered it himself on occasions


Take a look at the thread:
Are you a marxist but not a member of a marxist organisation?​I am well aware of Healy's thuggery and worse but I didn't witness any of it. Hence I said "The only act of violence I _saw" _


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## The39thStep (Jul 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I hear the LARC will be hosting a talk by Lisa Mackenzie regarding the new book she is involved in on the same afternoon.


who are they?


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## Rob Ray (Jul 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> who are they?


A what, rather than a who. London Action Resource Centre (LARC)


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> who are they?


A space owned by the collective an individual who puts it forward for anarchist purposes.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 12, 2022)

I don't know how it's funded but you can't knock it really. It was often a place of free digs during the bookfair that folk I know took advantage of.


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## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Jeezus, you never came across the Socialist Labour League/Workers Revolutionary Party and their regular use of violence against dissidents. And that was their fucking leader Gerry Healy who administered it himself on occasions



If you had any personal integrity Charlie you would have admitted you were wrong in your implication here. The evidence is clear. But you, like your buddy Pickman's model, are agenda driven. Truth doesn't interest you. Honest exchange of ideas is foreign to you. Anarchism is a posture, an affectation, something to make you feel good about yourself.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> If you had any personal integrity Charlie you would have admitted you were wrong in your implication here. The evidence is clear. But you, like your buddy Pickman's model, are agenda driven. Truth doesn't interest you. Honest exchange of ideas is foreign to you. Anarchism is a posture, an affectation, something to make you feel good about yourself.



And you’re asking why there’s beef?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 12, 2022)

To me an anarchist communist society is the rightful destination of the working class. 
Anyone calling themselves a communist disagreeing with that doesn’t understand communism.


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## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And you’re asking why there’s beef?


I'm just saying it as I see it. I'm not punching anybody.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> If you had any personal integrity Charlie you would have admitted you were wrong in your implication here. The evidence is clear. But you, like your buddy Pickman's model, are agenda driven. Truth doesn't interest you. Honest exchange of ideas is foreign to you. Anarchism is a posture, an affectation, something to make you feel good about yourself.


Everyone has an agenda


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 331862


Never mind Winnie-the-Pooh, surely a Marxist critique of Eeyore would be more helpful here?


The39thStep said:


> I think LDC  has had a word with The Customer Support Collective at The Bookfair
> 
> View attachment 331866


Well, that's a good deal more helpful than they've been previously. And a fairly reasonably-written email. Line breaks are a bit fucked but that might not be their fault. I see they did go for the old "Kind regards" at the end there though.


Rob Ray said:


> A what, rather than a who. London Action Resource Centre (LARC)


Glad to know they're still going, I wasn't totally sure if they were.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Everyone has an agenda


Not so, as in an agenda separate from the truth. We all get things wrong but my record on the Healyites and the Sparts could not be clearer, so why are you and Mowbray trying to muddy the waters?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

..


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele - Man Of Truth

It was a time… for heroes. Could one man traverse the swamp of anarchism, evading its teeth-snapping agendas?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> ..


It was better not said.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I have never been to an anarchist book fair but I'm led to believe they sometimes end in fist fights. Is this true and if so why do you think it happens?


Because fighting is exciting.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I hear the LARC will be hosting a talk by Lisa Mackenzie regarding the new book she is involved in on the same afternoon.


They shit their pants when plod showed up to arrest a few hippies. Lisa will fit right in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> I'm just trying to get a feel for the culture. On the Trot left physical violence is officially frowned upon (not to say it never happens but when it does it's a big deal).


Which is doubtless why so many trot groups just shout at fascists instead of doing the business. Why so many trot groups opposed the violence at eg the poll tax riot and many similar events in the last 30 years.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 12, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Never mind Winnie-the-Pooh, surely a Marxist critique of Eeyore would be more helpful here?
> 
> Well, that's a good deal more helpful than they've been previously. And a fairly reasonably-written email. Line breaks are a bit fucked but that might not be their fault. I see they did go for the old "Kind regards" at the end there though.
> 
> Glad to know they're still going, I wasn't totally sure if they were.


Comrade. Eeyore is in Winnie the Pooh


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Which is doubtless why so many trot groups just shout at fascists instead of doing the business. Why so many trot groups opposed the violence at eg the poll tax riot.


Picky old chap, I'm not a Trotskyist, haven't been for more than 3 decades.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> ..


I think we can all join the dots and see what's going on here.


The39thStep said:


> Comrade. Eeyore is in Winnie the Pooh


Yes, I was relying on the misunderstanding that the Marxist critique was of the eponymous bear himself rather than of the broader fictional work which shares his name? Fairly shaky joke now I come to type it out but it was funny in my head?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Picky old chap, I'm not a Trotskyist, haven't been for more than 3 decades.


I never said you were, carly. You brought up trot groups and their attitude to violence, I responded to the point you made. Thought you'd have recognised that, being as I never said you in my post.


----------



## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I never said you were, carly. You brought up trot groups and their attitude to violence, I responded to the point you made. Thought you'd have recognised that, being as I never said you in my post.


You are getting a bit flaky Picky. You made your points about the trots as a direct response to my post. Try to concentrate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> You made your points about the trots as a direct response to my post.


Yes, I just said that. As you're reduced to repeating what I've just said, you should go to Bedfordshire


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## Carl Steele (Jul 12, 2022)

Would you agree Picky, that I've spent some time here calling out the abuse of the Sparts and the  violence of the WRP/SLL (and also their sexual abuse)?


----------



## A380 (Jul 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Everyone has an agenda



Some of the meetings I’ve wasted years of my life in could have done with one…


----------



## TopCat (Jul 12, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> They shit their pants when plod showed up to arrest a few hippies. Lisa will fit right in.


Ooh. That's a bit warm.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 331862



Essential background reading for an anarchist perspective


----------



## JimW (Jul 12, 2022)

Well, having carped at them, I think that's a fair enough statement from the Bookfair lot and a reasonable reason for denying a stall - I don't think her cosying up with Spiked is comparable to Pickman's model taking a Saturday job at one of the many nefarious bad capitalist employers, different dynamic with Lisa finding an outlet for her writing IMO.
I also think Carl Steele made some fairly reasonable points about the Stalinists ending capitalism but only after a fashion, so we could go round that one again if everyone's not lost the will to live.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> Some of the meetings I’ve wasted years of my life in could have done with one…


The difficulty with that sort of meeting is everyone thinks they have the right agenda


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Would you agree Picky, that I've spent some time here calling out the abuse of the Sparts and the  violence of the WRP/SLL (and also their sexual abuse)?


Yes, carly


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I think LDC  has had a word with The Customer Support Collective at The Bookfair
> 
> View attachment 331866



Well, exactly. Not sure I could argue for that, but kinda what I meant when I said there might be a fair reason. Nothing like her suggestions that she and the book were banned for being too working class, or that the Bookfair were terrified of working class people, or that they don't like genuine collectives or other similar rubbish.

Sure she's great, and she definitely has some interesting stuff to say, but she is also a reactionary cliche with some of this stuff.


----------



## chilango (Jul 13, 2022)

LDC said:


> Well, exactly. Not sure I could argue for that, but kinda what I meant when I said there might be a fair reason. Nothing like her suggestions that she and the book were banned for being too working class, or that the Bookfair were terrified of working class people, or that they don't like genuine collectives or other similar rubbish.
> 
> Sure she's great, and she definitely has some interesting stuff to say, but she is also a reactionary cliche with some of this stuff.


At least they've clarified their reasons. People can now agree or disagree rather than try and guess what's going on.


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2022)

Shades of middle-management fudge with notes of _of course the crazy lady isn't banned, so long as someone more respectable can co-sign her application  _


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2022)

chilango said:


> At least they've clarified their reasons. People can now agree or disagree rather than try and guess what's going on.



I would like to think that this thread played its role in their comms strategy being reviewed.No small achievement in the eyes of many.


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I would like to think that this thread played its role in their comms strategy being reviewed.No small achievement in the eyes of many.



Small steps towards a glorious future comrade, small steps.


----------



## JimW (Jul 13, 2022)

Perhaps our next move would be to submit a series of spurious applications under ever more fiendishly designed edge cases just to piss everybody off.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2022)

The early bird


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2022)

> SBATW(Ukraine) is an autonomous activist collective that takes inspiration from the original Skateboarders against the War (Iraq) and their musical skate-athon about the imprisonment and subsequent release of Terry Waite ‘Has anyone here seen Terry’
> 
> Using freestyle skateboarding we have been engaging with marginalised youth communities to explore themes of NWBTCW and Imperialism by Proxy. The current production is based on an imaginary meeting between the fictitious characters Violet Elisabeth , Ginger, and Cockers with  Roman G. Kovalenko III, branch secretary of the Ukrainian Diaspora community (West Texas) & freestyle skateboard champion of Fort Worth.
> 
> The group has also organised a rolling skating blockade of the Spar Shop in Cheadlehighstreet ( Tuesdays and Fridays nights)  for selling Smirnoff whilst at the same protesting about the licensing laws for teenagers which are better in Europe.



A collaborative application btw with other posters from The Urban Left faction


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Bedroom gamers against tobacco duty


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Criticism is one thing but can we not actively try to waste the time and energy of a small collective trying to organise an event please?


----------



## A380 (Jul 13, 2022)

chilango said:


> At least they've clarified their reasons. People can now agree or disagree rather than try and guess what's going on.


And where’s the fun in that?


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Criticism is one thing but can we not actively try to waste the time and energy of a small collective trying to organise an event please?



Yeah agreed, not great doing that. Not to mention it reflecting badly on this place.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Criticism is one thing but can we not actively try to waste the time and energy of a small collective trying to organise an event please?


90% of the aggravation would be avoided if it "an" anarchist bookfair rather than "the" anarchist bookfair.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

They don't term themselves "the" anything, and you're not required to call it "the" anything. In fact as I understand it they specifically changed their name from The London Anarchist Bookfair to Anarchist Bookfair in London to avoid suggesting they're "the". Regardless, I'm not commenting on whether people are correct or incorrect to feel aggrieved, I'm saying don't do petty shit like the above which wastes people's time and energy when they're trying to put an event on.


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## danny la rouge (Jul 13, 2022)

Agreed.


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## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> They don't term themselves "the" anything, and you're not required to call it "the" anything. In fact as I understand it they specifically changed their name from The London Anarchist Bookfair to Anarchist Bookfair in London to avoid suggesting they're "the". Regardless, I'm not commenting on whether people are correct or incorrect to feel aggrieved, I'm saying don't do petty shit like the above which wastes people's time and energy when they're trying to put an event on.


You might want to check that.


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## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Ooh. That's a bit warm.


It probably was.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> You might want to check that.


Okay looks like a small "the" was added to their flyers for whatever reason, but also note the actual name of the website, Facebook page etc. Is your assumption that they're claiming to be "the" exclusive and singular Bookfair backed by any public claim they've made or is it just the fact they exist at all? Have they sent round heavies to stop anyone else from doing a London event? And if not, what justification do you have for making it more difficult for them to do theirs?


----------



## A380 (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> 90% of the aggravation would be avoided if it "an" anarchist bookfair rather than "the" anarchist bookfair.


A anarchist bookfair. Stick it to the man.


----------



## JimW (Jul 13, 2022)

One of the Hertfordshire Anarchist-Bookfairs; the sister married a Viscount.


----------



## Sue (Jul 13, 2022)

JimW said:


> One of the Hertfordshire Anarchist-Bookfairs; the sister married a Viscount.


Mint or orange..?


----------



## chilango (Jul 13, 2022)

Let's make The39thStep fly back to the UK to do the stall. I'd definitely go to the Bookfair to watch him skateboard whilst handing out self-published satirical fiction based on Workers Power.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Criticism is one thing but can we not actively try to waste the time and energy of a small collective trying to organise an event please?


Agreed. It's shit behaviour.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2022)

Huh, I see Manchester has a flyer sorted already:

Also, Peterborough has a somewhat less flashy flyer:


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

I get the thing with the date, not sure that matches will counter what Joe Bloggs thinks anarchists are though.


----------



## JimW (Jul 13, 2022)

Nice to see Grace Jones endorsing the Peterborough one. Didn't realised she got out to the Fens much.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Four left this year including Bradford The 2022 Anarchist Bookfairs list


----------



## chilango (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I get the thing with the date, not sure that matches will counter what Joe Bloggs thinks anarchists are though.


Are Joe Bloggs still going up there? Top one , nice one etc.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

chilango said:


> Are Joe Bloggs still going up there? Top one , nice one etc.



A mate of mine thought that said, “stomp all night get sore feet” 

Did the guy setting all the fires in Bristol ever get caught? Worst advert for Anarchism ever.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Okay looks like a small "the" was added to their flyers for whatever reason, but also note the actual name of the website, Facebook page etc. Is your assumption that they're claiming to be "the" exclusive and singular Bookfair backed by any public claim they've made or is it just the fact they exist at all? Have they sent round heavies to stop anyone else from doing a London event? And if not, what justification do you have for making it more difficult for them to do theirs?


I


Rob Ray said:


> Okay looks like a small "the" was added to their flyers for whatever reason, but also note the actual name of the website, Facebook page etc. Is your assumption that they're claiming to be "the" exclusive and singular Bookfair backed by any public claim they've made or is it just the fact they exist at all? Have they sent round heavies to stop anyone else from doing a London event? And if not, what justification do you have for making it more difficult for them to do theirs?


Fucking hell but you're a knob.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Have they sent round heavies to stop anyone else from doing a London event? And if not, what justification do you have for making it more difficult for them to do theirs?



I’m assuming that the new book fair crowd aren’t entirely unconnected from the ones ‘boycotting’ the previous organisers which encouraged them to cease organising it.
Not sure about others but I haven’t forgotten this fact.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

And as they themselves made it difficult for the previous organisers you’ll get a massive shoulder shrug from me if elements decide to take the piss with them.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m assuming that the new book fair crowd aren’t entirely unconnected from the ones ‘boycotting’ the previous organisers which encouraged them to cease organising it.
> Not sure about others but I haven’t forgotten this fact.


That's a big assumption... Or do you know?
Assumption then fact in your post


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Fucking hell but you're a knob.


Probably, but given you're currently the one casting aspersions on people you don't know, that you can't back up, to justify shit behaviour I'm fairly relaxed about hearing it from you.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Did the guy setting all the fires in Bristol ever get caught? Worst advert for Anarchism ever.


A few assumptions there 🤷


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> That's a big assumption... Or do you know?



It isn’t difficult to ascertain, is it? The ones boycotting are doing so with political differences with the organisers but seemingly have no political differences with the new organisers. 
Maybe there’s some kind of magic happening or, more likely, the culture wars warriors are steering anarchism away from its intended destination.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m assuming that the new book fair crowd aren’t entirely unconnected from the ones ‘boycotting’ the previous organisers which encouraged them to cease organising it.
> Not sure about others but I haven’t forgotten this fact.


I think there's a saying about assumptions, some sort of family thing ... 

(I'm not going to go into details for the sake of satisfying this rubbernecking lark, but no, the organisers of the Bookfair very much are not the same people.)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> A few assumptions there 🤷



Or news reports. That could be wrong.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I think there's a saying about assumptions, some sort of family thing ...



Explain how I’m wrong.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Explain how I’m wrong.


I have no interest in delving into the anarchist who's who for the sake of your craving for internet gossip.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It isn’t difficult to ascertain, is it? The ones boycotting are doing so with political differences with the organisers but seemingly have no political differences with the new organisers.
> Maybe there’s some kind of magic happening or, more likely, the culture wars warriors are steering anarchism away from its intended destination.


My assumption was people stepped up to fill the void.
A bunch of groups signed that open letter but can't see who from that letter are organising now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I have no interest in delving into the anarchist who's who for the sake of your craving for internet gossip.



 

Because I’m correct.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Or news reports. That could be wrong.


The news media don't know who did them, and nor do plod 🥸


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> My assumption was people stepped up to fill the void.
> A bunch of groups signed that open letter but can't see who from that letter are organising now.



It doesn’t have to be those exact individuals or groups rather than a trend moving it towards a particular direction.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because I’m correct.


You aren't, and a grinning face isn't going to persuade me to do anything.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> The news media don't know who did them, and nor do plod 🥸



Which answers my question.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> You aren't, and a grinning face isn't going to persuade me to do anything.



I’m not trying to persuade you to do anything. But clearly people are more comfortable with the new organisers than the old and that comes with political baggage.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Some people are, some aren't, that simply comes with the territory of a different group doing the thing. Your conclusions on what people's relationships stem from are incorrect.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Some people are, some aren't, that simply comes with the territory of a different group doing the thing. Your conclusions on where people's relationships stem from are incorrect.



Anyone announced a boycott yet? All I see is people being ‘disinclined’ book stalls. It was a coup.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2022)




----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Anyone announced a boycott yet? All I see is people being ‘disinclined’ book stalls. It was a coup.


Have you considered that a new group of people who had seen the crap faced by the old Bookfair might have taken a lesson from it, for good or ill? 

And no, it wasn't a coup. this would imply some sort of forcible takeover, whereas the original bookfair collective actually said they didn't want to do it as of the 2017 argument, leading to a gap in which no-one stepped up other than to do the fairly minimal Anarchist Festival in 2019. The current lot had intended to do one in 2020, were stymied by Covid, and held their first physical bookfair in 2021.


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Anyone announced a boycott yet? All I see is people being ‘disinclined’ book stalls. It was a coup.



Steady on you drama queen. It's _one _person told, for reasons now explained (their connection to State and far right broadcasters) that they are able to come to the bookfair, as is their project, but they themselves can't have a stall. I admit it's a bit ramshackle but meh, this stuff often is, and banning her personally would be a whole can of rabid worms to open.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Have you considered that a new group of people who had seen the crap faced by the old Bookfair might have taken a lesson from it, for good or ill?
> 
> And no, it wasn't a coup. this would imply some sort of forcible takeover, whereas the original bookfair collective actually said they didn't want to do it as of the 2017 argument, leading to a gap in which no-one stepped up other than to do the fairly minimal Anarchist Festival in 2019. The current lot had intended to do one in 2020, were stymied by Covid, and held their first physical bookfair in 2021.



It’s almost a coup of anarchism of the identitarian culture war mob over what it’s supposed to be which is the direction of class struggle. I can’t see it any other way, sorry.


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s almost a coup of anarchism of the identitarian culture war mob over what it’s supposed to be which is the direction of class struggle. I can’t see it any other way, sorry.



When did you last go to a Bookfair, and what anarchist groups and/or projects are you involved with? I really don't think it's quite as you (and the internet) makes out tbh.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Ugh, please. The obsession with idpol from people who blame it for every ill of the movement is as bad as the liberals whose bad takes fuel it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

LDC said:


> Steady on you drama queen. It's _one _person told, for reasons now explained (their connection to State and far right broadcasters) that they are able to come to the bookfair, as is their project, but they themselves can't have a stall. I admit it's a bit ramshackle but meh, this stuff often is, and banning her personally would be a whole can of rabid worms to open.



I’ve listened to Lisa many times at the book fair and enjoyed what she has to say. So I don’t think it makes me a ‘Drama Queen’ that these new folk who nobody will name are calling the shots on her attendance. 
Who are they btw?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

LDC said:


> When did you last go to a Bookfair, and what anarchist groups and/or projects are you involved with? I really don't think it's quite as you (and the internet) makes out tbh.



I last went in 2017.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m assuming that the new book fair crowd aren’t entirely unconnected from the ones ‘boycotting’ the previous organisers which encouraged them to cease organising it.
> Not sure about others but I haven’t forgotten this fact.


I’m assuming - but I haven’t forgotten this fact.

Facts and assumptions are not the same thing.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Who are they btw?


Alright calm down Man Who Was Thursday, you aren't getting names on a public forum ffs ...


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ve listened to Lisa many times at the book fair and enjoyed what she has to say. So I don’t think it makes me a ‘Drama Queen’ that these new folk who nobody will name are calling the shots on her attendance.
> Who are they btw?



I have no idea who they are. Lisa can still go to the Bookfair. I've not seen anyone else's group or project 'dis-invited' to this Bookfair (although there's still time...) and her thing has now been explained, and imo it has some pretty fair reasoning, even if it isn't something I'd do.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I’m assuming - but I haven’t forgotten this fact.
> 
> Facts and assumptions are not the same thing.



Almost as if nobody saw what happened and drew conclusions from it.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Almost as if nobody saw what happened and drew conclusions from it.


 Conclusions based on assumptions.  Which were wrong.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Almost as if nobody saw what happened and drew conclusions from it.



What you've actually done is decided on a narrative and are now trying to shape your assumptions to fit it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Conclusions based on assumptions.  Which were wrong.



I didn’t assume that the new book fair organisers took hold after the old ones threw the towel in.
I didn’t assume that they threw the towel in because groups put in letters of boycott. 

Am I wrong?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

This is all public record. Even on here. Don’t call me a liar smokedout thanks.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t assume that the new book fair organisers took hold after the old ones threw the towel in.
> I didn’t assume that they threw the towel in because groups put in letters of boycott.
> 
> Am I wrong?


Yes. You assumed that the organisers of the current bookfair "took hold" as opposed to just "said they were putting on a bookfair" when no-one else was doing it. You assumed their motivations, their friendship and organising circles, and their methodology. Then you assumed it was alright to demand that comrades' identities be put onto a public forum without permission to satisfy your own curiosity.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Yes. You assumed that the organisers of the current bookfair "took hold" as opposed to just "said they were putting on a bookfair" when no-one else was doing it. You assumed their motivations, their friendship and organising circles, and their methodology. Then you assumed it was alright to demand that comrades' identities be put onto a public forum without permission to satisfy your own curiosity.



Would be interesting to see whether comrades who started the new book fair had also put in letters of boycott to the old one but apparently we can’t be too transparent about these things so I apologise for my conspiracy theories.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

And when you aren't making assumptions, it's snide insinuations. All without evidence of any kind. And the reason you're demanding to be told what's happening, as though anyone needs to justify themselves to Judge Magnus, is because you're not active in any of it.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t assume that the new book fair organisers took hold after the old ones threw the towel in.
> I didn’t assume that they threw the towel in because groups put in letters of boycott.
> 
> Am I wrong?



No but so what.  The only conclusions you can draw from that are that the old organisers threw the towel in because groups put in letters of boycott and three years later some new people decided to organise it.  Anything else is speculation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> And when you aren't making assumptions, it's snide insinuations. All without evidence of any kind.



Isn’t it funny that I don’t have the evidence since whilst you simultaneously refuse to provide anything to the contrary?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

smokedout said:


> No but so what.  The only conclusions you can draw from that are that the old organisers threw the towel in because groups put in letters of boycott and three years later some new people decided to organise it.  Anything else is speculation.



Of course it’s speculation. You could disprove it of course but won’t.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Probably, but given you're currently the one casting aspersions on people you don't know, that you can't back up, to justify shit behaviour I'm fairly relaxed about hearing it from you.


What aspersions have I cast? On who?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Isn’t it funny that I don’t have the evidence since whilst you simultaneously refuse to provide anything to the contrary?


Why would I, particularly give your behaviour on this thread so far?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Anarchism is so vanishingly tiny that it would be almost impossible that anyone who was involved in putting in the letters of boycott aren’t  in any way connected to the new book fair Collective and they all get on.
It’s inconceivable.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Why would I, particularly give your behaviour on this thread so far?



You don’t need to. Your refusal answers all.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it’s speculation. You could disprove it of course but won’t.



Tell you what, how about you post your full real name and list of past political affiliations before you demand people do that to other people to disprove your (incorrect) speculation.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What aspersions have I cast? On who?


Remember that bit where you suggested the bookfair collective was aggravating because they were giving themselves airs?


Red Sky said:


> 90% of the aggravation would be avoided if it "an" anarchist bookfair rather than "the" anarchist bookfair.


And then didn't explain how you'd come to that conclusion?


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Anarchism is so vanishingly tiny that it would be almost impossible that anyone who was involved in putting in the letters of boycott aren’t  in any way unconnected to the new book fair Collective and they all get on.
> It’s inconceivable.



By that metric there were people in the original collective who are connected to some of the people who put in the boycott letter.  The plot thickens.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s inconceivable.


Goodness, inconceivable you say? Well I'll just have to bow to your well demonstrated knowledge I guess. Jfc.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Tell you what, how about you post your full real name and list of past political affiliations before you demand people do that to other people to disprove your (incorrect) speculation.



You’re saying that literally nobody from the new collective had a position on the old one?
I don’t need names.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Quite right, you don't. And if you want to find out more about who comprises the London movement generally I suggest you spend less time acting like you're entitled to information about it just because you post on Urban, and more actually offering something constructive.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Remember that bit where you suggested the bookfair collective was aggravating because they were giving themselves airs?
> 
> And then didn't explain how you'd come to that conclusion?


That is a very peculiar way of reading that statement. 

"The aggravation" just refers to the situation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Quite right, you don't. And if you want to find out more about who comprises the London movement generally I suggest you spend less time acting like you're entitled to information about it just because you post on Urban, and more actually offering something constructive.



Been there done that. It’s, err, cliquey. And mostly not working class.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

You are also being quite disingenuous here.  The new bookfair (which I went to last year btw) is very much the product of one side of the dispute that ended the first. Don't think there's any great secret.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Been there done that. It’s, err, cliquey. And mostly not working class.


Fair enough, but in that case you'll have to accept you're an outsider looking in, not someone deserving of answers.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> You are also being quite disingenuous here.  The new bookfair (which I went to last year btw) is very much the product of one side of the dispute that ended the first. Don't think there's any great secret.


No it isn't. The people involved in it aren't prepared to put up with transphobia, which I suppose would put them on "one side of the dispute," but that doesn't make them the product of it. Particularly several years later when that dispute is, within London at least, far less "live" than it used to be.



Red Sky said:


> That is a very peculiar way of reading that statement.


You're literally saying the reason people are annoyed is because of their attitude, which you define as them looking on it as "the" anarchist bookfair.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> You are also being quite disingenuous here.  The new bookfair (which I went to last year btw) is very much the product of one side of the dispute that ended the first. Don't think there's any great secret.



Thanks for that. They were claiming I was mad or something for thinking it.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’re saying that literally nobody from the new collective had a position on the old one?
> I don’t need names.



That's big of you.  Exactly who the fuck do you think you are.  Do you seriously expect someone to contact everyone in the new collective to ask for their thoughts on the old one to satisfy some anonymous wierdo on the internet.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Fair enough, but in that case you'll have to accept you're an outsider looking in, not a someone deserving of answers.



I’ll just turn up and see for myself like I’ve always done. 👍


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

smokedout said:


> That's big of you.  Exactly who the fuck do you think you are.  Do you seriously expect someone to contact everyone in the new collective to ask for their thoughts on the old one to satisfy some anonymous wierdo on the internet.



I believe RedSky has answered the question.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> No it isn't. The people involved in it aren't prepared to put up with transphobia, which I suppose would "put them on one side of the dispute," but h





Rob Ray said:


> No it isn't. The people involved in it aren't prepared to put up with transphobia, which I suppose would put them on "one side of the dispute," but that doesn't make them the product of it. Particularly several years later when that dispute is, within London at least, far less "live" than it used to be.
> 
> 
> You're literally saying the reason people are annoyed is because of their attitude, which you define as them looking on it as "the" anarchist bookfair.



I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and explain again. 

I think a lot of the hurt and anger stems from the fact that what once represented the whole movement now only represents part of it. 

Of course anyone is free to organise a bookfair on whatever lines they like, invite or disincline whoever they like.  Good luck to 'em .


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2022)

My theory is that Magnus is actually a deep cover agent on behalf of the new collective trying to help publicise the bookfair by making sure this thread gets bumped as much as possible, even when we don't actually have anything to argue about.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and explain again.
> 
> I think a lot of the hurt and anger stems from the fact that what once represented the whole movement now only represents part of it.
> 
> Of course anyone is free to organise a bookfair on whatever lines they like, invite or disincline whoever they like.  Good luck to 'em .



Right, okay. So about other people's views on what they represent rather than their views on what they represent. That I can agree with, though I do think a lot of people are being unreasonable in expecting the 2022 bookfair group to represent anything much except itself. Even the pre-2018 bookfair didn't present itself as The anarchist bookfair, it just became so because of its history and scale.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> My theory is that Magnus is actually a deep cover agent on behalf of the new collective trying to help publicise the bookfair by making sure this thread gets bumped as much as possible, even when we don't actually have anything to argue about.


Pretty deep cover given I've been posting here since about 1998.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2022)

When was the first London Anarchist Bookfair (Mk 1) ?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 13, 2022)

1981, the whole list is still up at the original OB website (history tab): Anarchist Bookfair


----------



## muscovyduck (Jul 14, 2022)

I'm gonna organise my own anarchist bookfair and no one is invited


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

I'm organising my own anarchist bookfair right now.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm organising my own anarchist bookfair right now.


Have you split yet? Wandered simultaneously both into and out of Spoons whilst punching yourself clumsily in the side of the head? Banned (NOT BANNED) yourself?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

If not WORST BOOKFAIR EVER  (see you next year)


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Unfortunately I had to shut it down, the neighbours got annoyed at me loudly denouncing myself in the stairwell after I'd kicked myself out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> Well, having carped at them, I think that's a fair enough statement from the Bookfair lot and a reasonable reason for denying a stall - I don't think her cosying up with Spiked is comparable to Pickman's model taking a Saturday job at one of the many nefarious bad capitalist employers, different dynamic with Lisa finding an outlet for her writing IMO.
> I also think Carl Steele made some fairly reasonable points about the Stalinists ending capitalism but only after a fashion, so we could go round that one again if everyone's not lost the will to live.


I think you must have difficulty with comparisons, what you mean is you don't think they're equivalent - of equal value - which is rather different. How much worse is working for a small new rw telly station with very few viewers than working for a big bank with many many years collaborating with apartheid south Africa? I don't know. But I do know they can be compared.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you must have difficulty with comparisons, what you mean is you don't think they're equivalent - of equal value - which is rather different. How much worse is working for a small new rw telly station with very few viewers than working for a big bank with many many years collaborating with apartheid south Africa? I don't know. But I do know they can be compared.


We've all got to work for a living but Lisa is already a well paid academic.  No need for her to take the Right's blood money.


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you must have difficulty with comparisons, what you mean is you don't think they're equivalent - of equal value - which is rather different. How much worse is working for a small new rw telly station with very few viewers than working for a big bank with many many years collaborating with apartheid south Africa? I don't know. But I do know they can be compared.


It's a sad thing when your dedication to pedantry renders you unable to comprehend a simple English sentence. The word has long had a sense, indeed I'd hazard its primary sense is, that of comparable and equivalent.
Was going to add a line about where the difference lies, but see Red Sky has made my point.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 14, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> We've all got to work for a living but Lisa is already a well paid academic.  No need for her to take the Right's blood money.


I'd say it's not even about being in need of the money, but the level of control and ideological content of the work - I can't speak for anyone else, but if Mckenzie wanted to make a bit of money on the side and got a job processing expense claims for GBNews or working as a receptionist at RT I'd have no problem with it. I dunno what Pickman's did at that bank, but I imagine he probably wasn't the person in charge of deciding whether to invest in South Africa or not, it was probably a fairly routine job following instructions, not one where he was expressing his ideas as part of the bank's work?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Genuinely I think lefties showing up on right-wing outlets can be done very well and make a positive difference, if pitching a solid perspective. I do think being a _regular _pundit is a different sort of beast, as it ties both your income to their pockets and their brand to your reputation. Big difference between confronting a dickhead about whether concrete grows on trees and cosy chats where you smile and nod along to the words of dickheads while you wait your turn to speak.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Surprised that Ash Sarkar doesn’t cop much flak for it then.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Surprised that Ash Sarkar doesn’t cop much flak for it then.


Her appearances generally involve her telling her _for balance_ co-guests that they're fucking idiots though so 🤷


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Surprised that Ash Sarkar doesn’t cop much flak for it then.


Does she do a column or just turn up for a studio back and forth?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Does she have a running gig at a right-wing outlet? She does the circuit a bit but not as a regular hire afaik. Her main thing's still Novara.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

I used to see her on the BBC a fair bit. Admittedly not so much of late.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> Does she do a column or just turn up for a studio back and forth?



Is there a difference?


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is there a difference?


I think so.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> I think so.



Two left wing pundits who represent their positions on non left wing outlets and getting paid for it.
Where’s the difference?


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Two left wing pundits who represent their positions on non left wing outlets and getting paid for it.
> Where’s the difference?


Column makes you an associate of the outlet in a different way, can add to their credibility etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> We've all got to work for a living but Lisa is already a well paid academic.  No need for her to take the Right's blood money.


That's one pov of course, but for me I think it's refreshing someone's going out and putting anarchist arguments out there. I've seen her and other comrades going into tr demos and arguing with the people there who otherwise don't have their views so challenged and for me it's a worthwhile exercise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'd say it's not even about being in need of the money, but the level of control and ideological content of the work - I can't speak for anyone else, but if Mckenzie wanted to make a bit of money on the side and got a job processing expense claims for GBNews or working as a receptionist at RT I'd have no problem with it. I dunno what Pickman's did at that bank, but I imagine he probably wasn't the person in charge of deciding whether to invest in South Africa or not, it was probably a fairly routine job following instructions, not one where he was expressing his ideas as part of the bank's work?


To be honest I did my best to throw a spanner in their works


----------



## smokedout (Jul 14, 2022)

If a right wing organisation liked Spiked have given you a column on their website then why?  It's not like a panel show where you need a range of views to be credible. What agenda do Spiked want you to pursue for them?  That's the difference surely.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> We've all got to work for a living but Lisa is already a well paid academic.  No need for her to take the Right's blood money.


I'm not sure she is a *well-paid* academic.

Most aren't. Even if they have perm or f/t roles, which most don't.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

smokedout said:


> If a right wing organisation liked Spiked have given you a column on their website then why?  It's not like a panel show where you need a range of views to be credible. What agenda do Spiked want you to pursue for them?  That's the difference surely.



I didn’t know she had a spiked column and haven’t read it. However, if she remains true to her politics then where’s the criticism? As Pickman’s says surely it’s beneficial to put Anarchist arguments to a wider audience? Presumably Spiked reaches more folk than the book fair does?


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

...and ftr I don't think writing for Spiked, or appearing on GBNews/RT etc. is the "right thing to do". I think it's a mistake, personally and politically. that only leads to bad places. It shouldn't - on its own - lead to becoming a _persona non grata_ in the broad anarchist movement though.

That said, judging by the ongoing beef between Lisa and the AFed on Twitter, it looks very much like it is - of course -  the "Trans issue" (sic) lying behind all of this.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

I guess both she and Spiked are trying to use the other to further their respective, and opposed, agendas.  Where the net gain lies is up for debate, but, then, criticism of her becomes about tactics rather than her beliefs/good faith.  In those circumstances, you'd have thought the bookfair is a broad enough church not to exclude her.  Unless the Spiked thing isn't the real reason.


----------



## belboid (Jul 14, 2022)

McKenzies agenda isn’t ‘opposed’ to that of Spiked, there’s a massive overlap.  Which is why she’s there.


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> ...and ftr I don't think writing for Spiked, or appearing on GBNews/RT etc. is the "right thing to do". I think it's a mistake, personally and politically. that only leads to bad places. It shouldn't - on its own - lead to becoming a _persona non grata_ in the broad anarchist movement though.
> 
> That said, judging by the ongoing beef between Lisa and the AFed on Twitter, it looks very much like it is - of course -  the "Trans issue" (sic) lying behind all of this.


Yep, first para sums it up for me. Don't doubt second para but not seen that due to no Twitter.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> Yep, first para sums it up for me. Don't doubt second para but not seen that due to no Twitter.


You're not missing anything. It's grimly predictable.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t know she had a spiked column and haven’t read it. However, if she remains true to her politics then where’s the criticism? As Pickman’s says surely it’s beneficial to put Anarchist arguments to a wider audience? Presumably Spiked reaches more folk than the book fair does?



Who reads Spiked other than a bunch of right wing grifters and culture war obsessives, it's not like The Sun.  And are you putting anarchist arguments to a wider audience, or have you been brought in to expose a wider audience to Spiked's ideas?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> it looks very much like it is - of course - the "Trans issue" (sic) lying behind all of this.


Again, assumptions aren't terribly useful here. Lisa's annoyed plenty of people entirely independently of any views she might have on trans rights, and the 2017 fight is not the defining element of decisions made by a collective formed in 2020.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Again, assumptions aren't terribly useful here. Lisa's annoyed plenty of people entirely independently of any views she might have on trans rights, and the 2017 fight is not the defining element of decisions made by a collective formed in 2020.


Fair enough.

I'm just a saddened spectator.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Surprised that Ash Sarkar doesn’t cop much flak for it then.



Grace Blakeley copped quite a bit of flack for signing up as a regular panellist for GB News recently FWIW. 

As others have said, I think the terms of employment and the ideological composition of the outlet is relevant. 

The BBC is not RT or Spiked, or even GB news. (Although over representation on the BBC of Spiked/ex-RCP types is a thing. )

And appearing occasionally on Newsnight or wherever is not the same as being a regular contributor.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Who reads Spiked other than a bunch of right wing grifters and culture war obsessives, it's not like The Sun.  And are you putting anarchist arguments to a wider audience, or have you been brought in to expose a wider audience to Spiked's ideas?



I’ve never read Spiked or know much about them so can’t really disagree. Although I thought they were more contrarian, and didn’t they used to be on the left or did I imagine that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ve never read Spiked or know much about them so can’t really disagree. Although I thought they were more contrarian, and didn’t they used to be on the left or did I imagine that?


Big thread here: RCP/Spiked/IoI


----------



## Wilf (Jul 14, 2022)

Regardless of Lisa, I think 'keep well away from spiked and gb news' is a good rule of thumb (though I accept making single appearances as 'the opposition' is something there are differing views on).  I mean, regardless of the politics of appearing on those outlets, just imagine the weirdos and shitbags you'd have to deal with?


----------



## xenon (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ve never read Spiked or know much about them so can’t really disagree. Although I thought they were more contrarian, and didn’t they used to be on the left or did I imagine that?



Heh. I asked about Spiked in one of my first posts on U75. I used to quite like the contrarianism when reading at work back then.

They're linked to the Living Marxism lot. Strange fish.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

belboid said:


> McKenzies agenda isn’t ‘opposed’ to that of Spiked, there’s a massive overlap.  Which is why she’s there.


In what respect?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> In what respect?


She goes after a similar line to one of Spiked's favoured attacks in which the modern left is defined as essentially a dilettante bourgeois phenomenon, while playing a useful role for the outlet (itself full of bourgeois ex-lefties) as an up to date "in the thick of it working class voice telling it how it is, which happens to also be how we see it.".


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> She goes after a similar line to one of Spiked's favoured attacks in which the modern left is defined as essentially a dilettante bourgeois phenomenon, while playing a useful role for the outlet (itself full of bourgeois ex-lefties) as an up to date "in the thick of it working class voice telling it how it is, which happens to also be how we see it.".


Agreement on that point - something with which many anarchists would agree insofar as it applies to much of what's call the left in the UK today - seems pretty small beer; it's a stretch to cite it as aligned agendas.  Even more so as a reason to deny her a stall.  I suspect it's not the real reason.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> That said, judging by the ongoing beef between Lisa and the AFed on Twitter, it looks very much like it is - of course -  the "Trans issue" (sic) lying behind all of this.



AFed Twitter account is pretty strange, it's more like a personal account than one run on behalf of an organisation (or 'collective').


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Unless I’m mistaken she’s written three articles for Spiked spanning 16 months. That’s hardly a column as suggested above.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> Agreement on that point - something with which many anarchists would agree insofar as it applies to much of what's call the left in the UK today - seems pretty small beer; it's a stretch to cite it as aligned agendas.  Even more so as a reason to deny her a stall.


You may agree with her (I think it's a needlessly reductive attitude to a much more complex problem that we allow to be freely weaponised by the right at our peril), but Spiked using her as left cover for its anti-left agenda is still an alignment.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> You may agree with her (I think it's a needlessly reductive attitude to a much more complex problem that we allow to be freely weaponised by the right at our peril), but Spiked using her as left cover for its anti-left agenda is still an alignment.


I don't necessarily agree with her position.  But nor do I agree the idea that being tactically naive in allowing herself to be used that way (if that is what's happened) amounts to an alignment of agendas. Surely that'd turn on intention?  But, anyway, I remain sceptical that it's the real reason she was denied a stall.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

She doesn't strike me as particularly naive, but who knows.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> She goes after a similar line to one of Spiked's favoured attacks in which the modern left is defined as essentially a dilettante bourgeois phenomenon, while playing a useful role for the outlet (itself full of bourgeois ex-lefties) as an up to date "in the thick of it working class voice telling it how it is, which happens to also be how we see it.".



Yep exemplified here: The Great Welfare Myth: The chattering classes are peddling a poisonous myth - that the poor cannot survive without the soul- deadening embrace of welfarism

Brendan O'Neill, claiming to be a leading left wing thinker, arguing that only middle class liberals cared about benefit cuts, and the real working class wanted their money to be cut.  They are fucking poison.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Yep exemplified here: The Great Welfare Myth: The chattering classes are peddling a poisonous myth - that the poor cannot survive without the soul- deadening embrace of welfarism
> 
> Brendan O'Neill, claiming to be a leading left wing thinker, arguing that only middle class liberals cared about benefit cuts, and the real working class wanted their money to be cut.  They are fucking poison.


In support of the idea that she should be denied a stall because she recently wrote for Spiked, you're citing an article written a decade ago, in a different publication, by someone else?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2022)

I think if Lisa’s work is being judged and herself for the company she keeps then the bookfair organisers should be open as to who they are so we the people can examine their record and the company they keep?


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> ...and ftr I don't think writing for Spiked, or appearing on GBNews/RT etc. is the "right thing to do". I think it's a mistake, personally and politically. that only leads to bad places. It shouldn't - on its own - lead to becoming a _persona non grata_ in the broad anarchist movement though.
> 
> That said, judging by the ongoing beef between Lisa and the AFed on Twitter, it looks very much like it is - of course -  the "Trans issue" (sic) lying behind all of this.


Had a nosey, the beef seems to have ended on ok terms, as of Tuesday.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> In support of the idea that she should be denied a stall because she recently wrote for Spiked, you're citing an article written a decade ago, in a different publication, by someone else?



He was the editor of Spiked until Sep 2021.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He was the editor of Spiked until Sep 2021.


Yeah, and he's a prick.  But nobody is defending him or Spiked.  The point* is whether or not her using them to get her points across amounts to her sharing and furthering their agenda. (Or so the organisers of the bookfair would have us believe; I'm sceptical that that's really why she's banned from having a stall.)


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> The point* is whether or not her using them to get her points across amounts to her sharing and furthering their agenda.


Of course you end up as left cover if you appear on their shitty portal. 
You're quite likely right it's not the real reason but then a stall for one book seems a bit odd anyway, I'd have said no for that reason since it seems it will be available from more general booksellers there anyway.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> Of course you end up as left cover if you appear on their shitty portal.
> You're quite likely right it's not the real reason but then a stall for one book seems a bit odd anyway, I'd have said no for that reason since it seems it will be available from more general booksellers there anyway.


On balance it probably is a shit tactic; in her shoes I'd be asking what they're getting from keep having me back.  The point is more that most anarchist traditions wouldn't 'no platform' those who are broadly ideologically aligned over a disagreement about tactics.  But, I think we both suspect that that isn't really what's going on here. (And I don't disagree that there may well be other legitimate grounds on which she could've been denied.)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> Of course you end up as left cover if you appear on their shitty portal.
> You're quite likely right it's not the real reason but then a stall for one book seems a bit odd anyway, I'd have said no for that reason since it seems it will be available from more general booksellers there anyway.



Stalls for badges and posters and other merch seem odd also but that’s part of the book fair.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Plus there’s a precedent; Beating the Fascists had a book fair stall when that came out.

Actually, they may have been disinclined under the new regime.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I think if Lisa’s work is being judged and herself for the company she keeps then the bookfair organisers should be open as to who they are so we the people can examine their record and the company they keep?


And maybe posters here should be upfront about it if they're part of/affiliated with/linked to the collective.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

All stallholders to complete a declaration of interests?

(I wrote that as a joke, but upon reflection...)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> And maybe posters here should be upfront about it if they're part of/affiliated with/linked to the collective.


Lol. Maybe not.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 332270



They’re organising a book event, not an attack on a Tory Party conference.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> And maybe posters here should be upfront about it if they're part of/affiliated with/linked to the collective.


In stead of wink wink I hear this was probably the reason.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re organising a book event, not an attack on a Tory Party conference.


So is your position is that anyone who is involved in any revolutionary group or organisation, except for all out insurrectionary stuff, should declare their affiliations in full on a public forum?

Or is it just specifically the Anarchist Bookfair in London people who must out themselves here, as they have annoyed you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Had a nosey, the beef seems to have ended on ok terms, as of Tuesday.


must say that's rather a disappointment, i had that down as one of my bookfair beef pool fights


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> So is your position is that anyone who is involved in any revolutionary group or organisaiton, except for all out insurrectionary stuff, should declare their affiliations in full on a public forum?
> 
> Or is it just specifically the Anarchist Bookfair in London people who must out themselves here, as they have annoyed you?



It seems that McKenzie is at a disadvantage here given she operates entirely behind her real name and in doing so can be judged by folk who are unwilling to put themselves under the same microscope. So we’ll never get to know their skeletons. Seems pretty bad faith.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re organising a book event, not an attack on a Tory Party conference.


if only the same meticulous planning went into both


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It seems that McKenzie is at a disadvantage here given she operates entirely behind her real name and in doing so can be judged by folk who are unwilling to put themselves under the same microscope. So we’ll never get to know their skeletons. Seems pretty bad faith.


Perhaps she posts "here" and all over twitter using an exciting array of pseudonyms as a cunning disguise? We will never know. There are obviously advantages and disadvantages to being a public left-wing commentator.

I fail to see why people on Urban 75 should out themselves for the edification of you and Athos though.


----------



## JimW (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Perhaps she posts "here" and all over twitter using an exciting array of pseudonyms as a cunning disguise?


Anyone ever seen her and Magnus in the same room?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

JimW said:


> Anyone ever seen her and Magnus in the same room?


yes


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It seems that McKenzie is at a disadvantage here given she operates entirely behind her real name and in doing so can be judged by folk who are unwilling to put themselves under the same microscope. So we’ll never get to know their skeletons. Seems pretty bad faith.


Lisa decided to be a public figure and indeed trades off it, and that's up to her. If working a normal job however using real names is a decision which can come with a range of consequences. Having your name next to anarchist activism leaves you at the mercy of the first boss, right-wing journo, aggy dickhead or pos ex who thinks to Google you. Some people don't want to do that, which is also up to them - organising an event shouldn't require you to become public property.

The right to anonymity online also, of course, goes way beyond anarchist activism per se, being one of the cornerstones of the modern internet. How many people here are using their real names eh?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 14, 2022)

For the record, I would like to state that I have no affiliation with either the old London bookfair collective or the new London bookfair collective, but I did do 9/11. And Shergar. And that Biden 2020 (A) graffiti, that was me as well.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Lisa decided to be a public figure and indeed trades off it, and that's up to her. If working a normal job however using real names is a decision which can come with a range of consequences. Having your name next to anarchist activism leaves you at the mercy of the first boss, right-wing journo, aggy dickhead or pos ex who thinks to Google you. Some people don't want to do that, which is also up to them - organising an event shouldn't require you to become public property.
> 
> The right to anonymity online also, of course, goes way beyond anarchist activism per se, being one of the cornerstones of the modern internet. How many people here are using their real names eh?



So understanding that and laying out the risks involved, one might expect comrades to be supportive of those putting their necks on the line in this way. Rather than ‘disinclining’ them.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2022)

..


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So understanding that and laying out the risks involved, one might expect comrades to be supportive of those putting their necks on the line in this way. Rather than ‘disinclining’ them.


Not really, no. If anything the anarchist scene tends to be suspicious of self-promotion rather than putting it on podiums. Which has its own issues in terms of movement PR but that's a whole other argument over strategy which, as previously established, doesn't involve you.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So understanding that and laying out the risks involved, one might expect comrades to be supportive of those putting their necks on the line in this way. Rather than ‘disinclining’ them.


Both Lisa and the much maligned Ash Sarkar have had death threats and all sorts I believe, for which they both absolutely deserve our support and solidarity. AFAIK Lisa had a smear piece in one of the dailies a few years back for having the temerity to be a working class women enjoying herself on holiday.

None of this gives either of them carte blanche to do anyting whatsoever without criticism though. Indeed,_ "I am this thing so am beyond criticism" _is one of the things people don't like about shouty student identity politics, no?


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Perhaps she posts "here" and all over twitter using an exciting array of pseudonyms as a cunning disguise? We will never know. There are obviously advantages and disadvantages to being a public left-wing commentator.
> 
> I fail to see why people on Urban 75 should out themselves for the edification of you and Athos though.


I'm not suggesting anyone use their real name (of course), but their U75 name.  It just seems a bit odd for people to appear to be disinterested parties defending the collective, if, in reality, they're part of it.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2022)

Some transparency is needed.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> I'm not suggesting anyone use their real name (of course), but their U75 name.  It just seems a bit odd for people to appear to be disinterested parties defending the collective, if, in reality, they're part of it.


I'm not sure it matters to be quite honest.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Athos said:


> I'm not suggesting anyone use their real name (of course), but their U75 name.  It just seems a bit odd for people to appear to be disinterested parties defending the collective, if, in reality, they're part of it.


It would be fairly easy to identify some posters actual identities (or perhaps other pseudonyms that are less private) from their posting history on here. This is the reason why a few people have changed thier usernames over the years. 

Also where does this end? People with connections to Lisa or Martin or the old collective should self-declare too by your logic. 

Most people on this thread (me included) are bystanders with the popcorn and deckchairs out, who are living vicariously through a drama they are not involved in.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Both Lisa and the much maligned Ash Sarkar have had death threats and all sorts I believe, for which they both absolutely deserve our support and solidarity. AFAIK Lisa had a smear piece in one of the dailies a few years back for having the temerity to be a working class women enjoying herself on holiday.
> 
> None of this gives either of them carte blanche to do anyting whatsoever without criticism though. Indeed,_ "I am this thing so am beyond criticism" _is one of the things people don't like about shouty student identity politics, no?



But I haven’t said she shouldn’t be subjected to criticism. That’s part and parcel of politics. It just seems a bit sad, to me, that she’s not invited to Anarchism’s premiere event in the UK given she’s very much part of it coupled with what has actually happened to said event.


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It would be fairly easy to identify some posters actual identities (or perhaps other pseudonyms that are less private) from their posting history on here. This is the reason why a few people have changed thier usernames over the years.
> 
> Also where does this end? People with connections to Lisa or Martin or the old collective should self-declare too by your logic.
> 
> Most people on this thread (me included) are bystanders with the popcorn and deckchairs out, who are living vicariously through a drama they are not involved in.


Yeah, fair enough, I guess you're probably right about that.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But I haven’t said she shouldn’t be subjected to criticism. That’s part and parcel of politics. It just seems a bit sad, to me, that she’s not invited to Anarchism’s premiere event in the UK given she’s very much part of it coupled with what has actually happened to said event.


Well perhaps. I'm nostalgic for the days when you'd get Green Anarchist, Red Action, Michel Prigent and Communist Headache jeek by jowl in the lobby of Conway Hall (and the ICC just outside), so it's hard for me to be objective. 

It's up to the organisers who they let in, ultimately. If they exclude enough people that opens up the possibility for some other kind of event maybe. 

I noticed that Lisa had a stall at the open air Art Fair in Kings Cross recently and seemed to be in fine spirits. On balance I'd say personally she is a force for good.

I'm more interested to see whether groups who are (in my view) less controversial than her get a look-in this time...


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Some transparency is needed.


People often say this when frustrated by a lack of info in a conversation, and understandably so, but transparency to who? The internet at large? A jury of Urbanites? The problem is, as anybody who's been on the receiving of a pile-on can tell you, that if there's hostile people looking to have a go there's nothing you can say that doesn't get torn into bits and flourished as a gotcha. More openness generally doesn't calm the situation or improve your standing, it just gives aggy people more ways to take a pop – eg. on this very thread, where people simply said "nah don't believe it" when the rejection letter was passed on and came up with their own ideas instead.

It's a sad reality of the web that transparency about controversy, often as not, is simply a synonym for sticking a sign on your back saying "kick me."


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well perhaps. I'm nostalgic for the days when you'd get Green Anarchist, Red Action, Michel Prigent and Communist Headache jeek by jowl in the lobby of Conway Hall (and the ICC just outside), so it's hard for me to be objective.
> 
> It's up to the organisers who they let in, ultimately. If they exclude enough people that opens up the possibility for some other kind of event maybe.
> 
> ...


Looking at her twitter stuff apparently she isn’t banned from the book fair (although isn’t planning on going now) she just isn’t allowed a stall. To sell a book with working class voices in.
That seems a pretty mental punishment to me. What the heck is anarchism for?


----------



## Athos (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> People often say this when frustrated by a lack of info in a conversation, and understandably so, but transparency to who? The internet at large? A jury of Urbanites? The problem is, as anybody who's been on the receiving of a pile-on can tell you, that if there's hostile people looking to have a go there's nothing you can say that doesn't get torn into bits and flourished as a gotcha. More openness generally doesn't calm the situation or improve your standing, it just gives aggy people more ways to take a pop – eg. on this very thread, where people simply said "nah don't believe it" when the rejection letter was passed on and came up with their own ideas instead.
> 
> It's a sad reality of the web that transparency about controversy, often as not, is simply a synonym for sticking a sign on your back saying "kick me."


Hmmm.  Yes and no.   There's undoubtedly some entrenched views now, such that some would use anything they say as a stick to beat them with, because they don't trust them. But the collective is partly responsible for that lack of trust by not being a bit more open from the outset.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That seems a pretty mental punishment to me. What the heck is anarchism for?


I don't get invited to things all the time, I'm not sure I'd class it as a punishment. And her book's not banned, either. In fact the sum total of what she's been told she can't do is sit behind a table.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Lisa decided to be a public figure and indeed trades off it, and that's up to her. If working a normal job however using real names is a decision which can come with a range of consequences. Having your name next to anarchist activism leaves you at the mercy of the first boss, right-wing journo, aggy dickhead or pos ex who thinks to Google you. Some people don't want to do that, which is also up to them - organising an event shouldn't require you to become public property.
> 
> The right to anonymity online also, of course, goes way beyond anarchist activism per se, being one of the cornerstones of the modern internet. How many people here are using their real names eh?


This should go without saying (not criticising you obvs). I mean, for fuck's sake.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I don't get invited to things all the time, I'm not sure I'd class it as a punishment. And her book's not banned, either. In fact the sum total of what she's been told she can't do is sit behind a table.


So no platformed, basically.
Which kind of is a big deal.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So no platformed, basically.
> Which kind of is a big deal.


Still being able to sell your book and hang out in the space with a singular restriction of not getting a table is not "no platform."


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Still being able to sell your book and hang out in the space with a singular restriction of not getting a table of your own is not "no platform."


So if she’s welcome and can sell the book not getting a table is spite, then?
You’re not covering yourselves in glory here.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Still being able to sell your book and hang out in the space with a singular restriction of not getting a table is not "no platform."


Absolutely, it's not "no platform".

...but it is, from my viewer's perspective, a bit daft.

So, the collective can have a stall and flog the book. And Lisa can come, stand near the stall, but not behind it?

I get that it might be an attempt at a conciliatory compromise (and if so, fair play) but looked at from a distance it just makes me shrug my shoulders and shake my head.

...again, the Bookfair collective are putting the work in, and I'm not, so their views - of course - carry more weight than mine. But it's not exactly tempting me to lug my wetsuit across London for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Looking at her twitter stuff apparently she isn’t banned from the book fair (although isn’t planning on going now) she just isn’t allowed a stall. To sell a book with working class voices in.
> That seems a pretty mental punishment to me. What the heck is anarchism for?


Mind games for the middle classes, according to John Lydon


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So if she’s welcome and can sell the book not getting a table is spite, then?
> You’re not covering yourselves in glory here.


a) I don't care in the least what you think about my glory
b) I'm not a bookfair organiser so it wouldn't be my glory in any case
c) will you _please_ stop throwing out random interpretations of what people say as though it has any meaning at all? It's very wearing. In fact your entire attitude of continuous attempted hyping of drama levels for something you have no stake in is _very_ wearing. Though I suppose it does provide an example of what I was saying above.


----------



## LDC (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> Absolutely, it's not "no platform".
> 
> ...but it is, from my viewer's perspective, a bit daft.
> 
> So, the collective can have a stall and flog the book. And Lisa can come, stand near the stall, but not behind it?



Yeah, some quite odd practicalities that don't make much sense really. I do think she's wrong to engage with Spiked and GBNews for all the reasons already mentioned, but I would not have that as a 'banning' offence personally, more one of ridicule and derision, especially the idea that it's about 'getting your message across' to others. I do completely speculate that the reason given she's had this happen might not be the whole truth though, as has also been mentioned.

I do long for the days of messy and eclectic bookfairs though, I do find the whole exclusion/banned thing mostly a very depressing direction, both for the bookfairs and wider politics.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I don't get invited to things all the time, I'm not sure I'd class it as a punishment. And her book's not banned, either. In fact the sum total of what she's been told she can't do is sit behind a table.


Who told her?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Message from the group account, it was posted upthread.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> a) I don't care in the least what you think about my glory
> b) I'm not a bookfair organiser so it wouldn't be my glory in any case
> c) will you _please_ stop throwing out random interpretations of what people say as though it has any meaning at all? It's very wearing. In fact your entire attitude of continuous attempted hyping of drama levels for something you have no stake in is _very_ wearing. Though I suppose it does provide an example of what I was saying above.


I'm sorry that engaging on a discussion forum tires you so. Maybe have a lie down?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm sorry that engaging on a discussion forum tires you so. Maybe have  lie down?


I'll pass on the obvious rejoinder, but will indeed be enjoying the rest of my evening away from the thread. Ciao.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I'll pass on the obvious rejoinder, but will indeed be enjoying the rest of my evening away from the thread. Ciao.


Have a good one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Have a good one.


That shows a good spirit


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Message from the group account, it was posted upthread.


You are beyond obtuse now. I can do that too. Turn up, sell books!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Some transparency is needed.


Open the books


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Open the books



Don't break the spine though, or you'll have to buy it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> Don't break the spine though, or you'll have to buy it.


And there was me thinking no ones going to get the subtle double meaning in that post


----------



## krink (Jul 14, 2022)

I don't think I am an anarchist anymore if you can still be one and work for the Russian State _and_ a two right wing media companies _by choice_.
For the first time ever I agree with the young whippersnappers of the new bookfair.

ETA - that's if she still calls herself one. She did last time I 'spoke' to her about working for RT


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

krink said:


> I don't think I am an anarchist anymore if you can still be one and work for the Russian State _and_ a two right wing media companies _by choice_.
> For the first time ever I agree with the young whippersnappers of the new bookfair.
> 
> ETA - that's if she still calls herself one. She did last time I 'spoke' to her about working for RT



I’m sure we can get her to say some Hail Marys and we’ll all be pure again.


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2022)

Not sure if purity is necessary, but I guess we would all draw a line somewhere. Not giving stalls to people who write for Spiked seems a reasonable enough place to draw one to me.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

killer b said:


> Not sure if purity is necessary, but I guess we would all draw a line somewhere. Not giving stalls to people who write for Spiked seems a reasonable enough place to draw one to me.



I don’t agree with writing for Spiked, or RT for that matter. But what she HAS written doesn’t seem off beam to me. And those that object are the usual suspects who mostly dismiss class within the debate as ‘reductionist’ etc (I’m not including Smokedout in that).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well perhaps. I'm nostalgic for the days when you'd get Green Anarchist, Red Action, Michel Prigent and Communist Headache jeek by jowl in the lobby of Conway Hall (and the ICC just outside), so it's hard for me to be objective.


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2022)

Only very online politics nerds even know Spiked exists, which is why it's only them objecting to it. So what though - it doesn't make it any less the propaganda arm of a deeply sinister far-right political project. And Mckenzie isn't thick, she knows who they are.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

killer b said:


> Only very online politics nerds even know Spiked exists, which is why it's only them objecting to it. So what though - it doesn't make it any less the propaganda arm of a deeply sinister far-right political project. And Mckenzie isn't thick, she knows who they are.



I imagine she’s just trying to sell her writings to whoever is offering money. And most of us are in this predicament tbh. The difference with McKenzie is that all her dealings are on public record.


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I imagine she’s just trying to sell her writings to whoever is offering money. And most of us are in this predicament tbh. The difference with McKenzie is that all her dealings are on public record.


You're welcome to give the person writing for the far right propaganda website the benefit of the doubt if you like. Others choose not to, and I can understand them taking that position. Not sure if I would, but as I said - everyone has to draw a line somewhere, and on balance I think I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt to the people telling the person who writes for the far right website to do one than the person who writes for the far right website.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> Don't break the spine though, or you'll have to buy it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

killer b said:


> You're welcome to give the person writing for the far right propaganda website the benefit of the doubt if you like. Others choose not to, and I can understand them taking that position. Not sure if I would, but as I said - everyone has to draw a line somewhere, and on balance I think I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt to the people telling the person who writes for the far right website to do one than the person who writes for the far right website.


Are Spiked 'far right' then? Can you point to as to why. And then can you relate back why you think the articles of hers on there help promote the far right?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

It's fucking nuts anyway tbh. If I spoke to workmates about some of the things McKenzie has to say I imagine they'd be interested. All this other stuff just exists in the bubble and so by accident or design Anarchism remains relevant to pretty much nobody.


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2022)

absolutely they are - the political movement of the living marxism network over the last few decades is well documented elsewhere - the thread Danny linked to above is a good place to start, and an interesting read if lengthy. I've not really got the inclination to precis it for you though. As for what a left wing writer writing for a website which among other things tries to function as a pipeline between disaffected left wingers and the populist far right does to help promote their cause? Does it really need spelling out?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

killer b said:


> absolutely they are - the political movement of the living marxism network over the last few decades is well documented elsewhere - the thread Danny linked to above is a good place to start, and an interesting read if lengthy. I've not really got the inclination to precis it for you though. As for what a left wing writer writing for a website which among other things tries to function as a pipeline between disaffected left wingers and the populist far right does to help promote their cause? Does it really need spelling out?



I’ll read the 37 page thread to better educate myself.
I’m just a bit surprised that the anti fascists posting on this thread haven’t claimed similar which would have been the canary.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

Proven antifascists have never noted the scabrous pro-capital, far right-adjacent politics of the LM grifters, you say?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 332320
> 
> Proven antifascists have never noted the scabrous pro-capital, far right-adjacent politics of the LM grifters, you say?


Given all manner of people are called fascists nowadays for all manner of reasons I'd rather put my trust in those with a historical understanding of it.


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2022)

Monbiot pulls together a lot of threads about Spiked in this piece, if the 37 page thread is too daunting.


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## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

There's a distinction between 'far-right' and 'fascist' though.

I'm not sure I'd describe Spiked as either. But they are undoubtedly well dodgy and writing for them is a very iffy thing to do.

Iffy enough to be 'banned from the Bookfair'? I'd say 'no', but completely understand the logic of those saying 'yes'.


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2022)

If only someone who was involved in the RCP milieu in the early 1990s was here and able to explain how even then the organising cadres were actively contemptuous of anti-fascism and anti-fascists 🤣 Or how they actively and with forethought aligned themselves to far-right Slavic conservative nationalist movements under cover of 'anti-imperialism', to the point of denying war crimes.


----------



## chilango (Jul 14, 2022)

...and there's that whole eco-system of Spiked, Unherd, Quillette etc. It deserves serious thought.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 14, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> If only someone who was involved in the RCP milieu in the early 1990s was here and able to explain how even then the organising cadres were actively contemptuous of anti-fascism and anti-fascists 🤣 Or how they actively and with forethought aligned themselves to far-right Slavic conservative nationalist movements under cover of 'anti-imperialism', to the point of denying war crimes.


I assume you refer to some dear departed? Maybe I should read the 37 page thread.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 14, 2022)

RIP to that mystery poster who was around the RCP in the early 1990s.


----------



## belboid (Jul 15, 2022)

Poor old David Martin I

I think that was his cadre name


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 15, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Yep exemplified here: The Great Welfare Myth: The chattering classes are peddling a poisonous myth - that the poor cannot survive without the soul- deadening embrace of welfarism
> 
> Brendan O'Neill, claiming to be a leading left wing thinker, arguing that only middle class liberals cared about benefit cuts, and the real working class wanted their money to be cut.  They are fucking poison.





smokedout said:


> Yep exemplified here: The Great Welfare Myth: The chattering classes are peddling a poisonous myth - that the poor cannot survive without the soul- deadening embrace of welfarism
> 
> Brendan O'Neill, claiming to be a leading left wing thinker, arguing that only middle class liberals cared about benefit cuts, and the real working class wanted their money to be cut.  They are fucking poison.



Kathleen stock wrote something in a similar vein attacking reasonable adjustments at university.


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## Rob Ray (Jul 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> You are beyond obtuse now. I can do that too. Turn up, sell books!


What were you expecting me to say? It's not like I was in the room when the thing was sent ...


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 15, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t agree with writing for Spiked, or RT for that matter. But what she HAS written doesn’t seem off beam to me. And those that object are the usual suspects who mostly dismiss class within the debate as ‘reductionist’ etc (I’m not including Smokedout in that).


As "reductive" was a word I used it seems clear who you're aiming at. And that if so, you misunderstood (or misleadingly interpreted, again) what I was saying, which had nothing whatsoever to do with "dismissing class in the debate" and was actually a criticism that class and the left is complex, deserving of better than inaccurate, right-wing friendly sneering about how the left is all middle class now.

On which note I think I'm going to stop engaging with this relentlessly bad faith approach you've been taking, which I remember also happened during the trans arguments a while back. So don't expect further responses.


----------



## LDC (Jul 15, 2022)

This stuff is always complicated to navigate. We all do things that are compromised and flawed with our lives and work - behaviour too sometimes. What for one of us is a fair choice under difficult circumstances (or something we justify politically somehow) is to another a step too far and a political disaster. But we usually muddle along and get by, sometimes arguing about these choices, and sometimes just shrugging and accepting in the grand scheme of things they're not that important.

One of the things I don't like about this tendency to ban/un-invite is the importance it gives to individual choices and decisions as if somehow the movement is made up of people that have decided to do the 'right thing', and then the political project often seems to become just the push to get people to also do the 'right thing'. And if you do the 'wrong thing' then you're not really part of the same political project. It's been discussed _ad nauseam _why this has happened, but like I said it's a shit and unhelpful tendency (even when the decision itself might seem fair judged in isolation) so even while I think Lisa is wrong on Spiked and GBNews I think it's not a very helpful direction to do this, even on the pragmatic level of how much fucking time we spend discussing this kind of distraction.


----------



## JimW (Jul 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Open the books


Open a book; three more pointless spats before the fair, three to one on.


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## killer b (Jul 15, 2022)

LDC said:


> even on the pragmatic level of how much fucking time we spend discussing this kind of distraction.


I look back with fondness on the political harmony of anarchist bookfair threads of the past


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2022)

Last year the acg were prevented from having a stall for political reasons. This year lisa because of one of her employers. There's two great precedents for the future. And some people have gone further and said they can see why people proposing only selling one thing off their stalls might not be allowed to have one. I can't recall any other bookfair in London or further afield acting like this. I don't know if Helen Steele has put in for a stall to sell the book she co-wrote about spy cops but if she has I wouldn't bet on her getting one.


----------



## chilango (Jul 15, 2022)

killer b said:


> I look back with fondness on the political harmony of anarchist bookfair threads of the past


It's like the pre-match build up on Grandstand before the FA cup final.


----------



## A380 (Jul 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> Open a book; three more pointless spats before the fair, three to one on.


No takers.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 15, 2022)

killer b said:


> I look back with fondness on the political harmony of anarchist bookfair threads of the past


Wistfully reminiscing about the days when spats would be memorialised through anonymous tumblelogs and LiveJournal posts


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Wistfully reminiscing about the days when spats would be memorialised through anonymous tumblelogs and LiveJournal posts


in previous years you never had obvious spats between would-be stallholders and the organisers


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> in previous years you never had obvious spats between would-be stallholders and the organisers


We were very blinkered to the endless spat possibilities then


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## hitmouse (Jul 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> in previous years you never had obvious spats between would-be stallholders and the organisers


SPGB and ICC were really missing a trick all that time.


----------



## rekil (Jul 15, 2022)

Perhaps working class academic Dr. McKenzie would appreciate this long and somewhat dry 2020 paper on RT here, examining its structure, interviewing former employees and explaining why they give columns and airtime to lefties alongside the usual gaggle of holocaust deniers, conspiraloons and maniacs. 









						“Anything that Causes Chaos”: The Organizational Behavior of Russia Today (RT)
					

Abstract. RT (formerly, Russia Today) is one of the most important organizations in the global political economy of disinformation. It is the most richly funded




					academic.oup.com


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## krink (Jul 24, 2022)

Me getting a job writing for the Sun is different to me getting a job working as a printer there. A cleaner at the cop shop is very different from writing their press releases. It's not that hard to grasp. Anyway, I'm not running a bookfair and I'm very unlikely to go to one so what the fuck does my opinion count for? Nowt.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 24, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> We were very blinkered to the endless spat possibilities then


Trickledown spatonomics


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

Anyone watched that GB TV recently?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 24, 2022)

No, but I've been belatedly getting into Inside Number 9, if that helps?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> No, but I've been belatedly getting into Inside Number 9, if that helps?


Any good? It was never on my radar and only relatively recently heard of it and that it's by the folk behind League of Gentlemen.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 24, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Any good? It was never on my radar and only relatively recently heard of it and that it's by the folk behind League of Gentlemen.


Yeah, I'd say probably better than League, it's very different though, one of those anthology things so every episode's a completely different setting, but they do a good job at drawing you in given they only have half an hour for each story.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

krink said:


> Me getting a job writing for the Sun is different to me getting a job working as a printer there. A cleaner at the cop shop is very different from writing their press releases. It's not that hard to grasp.



So in the spirit of equality, a sentiment that most anarchists would agree with, we should be informed of the employment details of the organisers and all stall holders to ensure there aren’t any other conflicts of interest in our midst. Would be a shame to be part of building a culture where being open and honest leads to censure which encourages deceit.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 25, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, I'd say probably better than League, it's very different though, one of those anthology things so every episode's a completely different setting, but they do a good job at drawing you in given they only have half an hour for each story.


Bloody not on Netflix anymore. Had a look last night.  Ended being underwhelmed by Derry Girls instead.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Bloody not on Netflix anymore. Had a look last night.  Ended being underwhelmed by Derry Girls instead.


There are seven series of it on Iplayer if that works for you? I'd also recommend it.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So in the spirit of equality, a sentiment that most anarchists would agree with, we should be informed of the employment details of the organisers and all stall holders to ensure there aren’t any other conflicts of interest in our midst. Would be a shame to be part of building a culture where being open and honest leads to censure which encourages deceit.


That would be funny if the organisers agreed. Speculate briefly as to the amount of high viz wearers compared to pencil heads.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

TopCat said:


> That would be funny if the organisers agreed. Speculate briefly as to the amount of high viz wearers compared to pencil heads.


i've certainly met some high viz readers at the book fair over the years


----------



## smokedout (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So in the spirit of equality, a sentiment that most anarchists would agree with, we should be informed of the employment details of the organisers and all stall holders to ensure there aren’t any other conflicts of interest in our midst. Would be a shame to be part of building a culture where being open and honest leads to censure which encourages deceit.



Seriously do you not think that there are some jobs which should raise a concern?  Should the bookfair give a stall to a group run by a cop, bailiff, or arms industry executive?  Now whether someone who writes for the right wing press falls into one of those categories is fair to debate but the idea that there are no jobs which should rule people out of formal participation in anarchist groups or events seems pretty reckless to me.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Seriously do you not think that there are some jobs which should raise a concern?  Should the bookfair give a stall to a group run by a cop, bailiff, or arms industry executive?  Now whether someone who writes for the right wing press falls into one of those categories is fair to debate but the idea that there are no jobs which should rule people out of formal participation in anarchist groups or events seems pretty reckless to me.


Not sure how you're disagreeing with me there.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus' newfound hunger for data collection seems to know no bounds.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 25, 2022)

Where did this idea come from that if you're an anarchist you should just put up with any old bullshit, because you're supposed to be welcoming of some kind of free-for-all in every area of your life? Why even bother to get people to book a stall in the first place, let anyone turn up and do what they like cos "you're supposed to be an anarchist. Gotcha." Why even have a front door? Why bother flushing the toilet. 

You could argue that someone's got it together to run the bookfair, if they hadn't it wouldn't be happening at all this year, and it's up to them who they allow a stall or not.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 25, 2022)




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## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Magnus' newfound hunger for data collection seems to know no bounds.


Are anarchist groups Data Protection compliant these days or do they have a more laissez-faire attitude?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 25, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Magnus' newfound hunger for data collection seems to know no bounds.


I am minded of the a time when Butchersapron lost his shit, after Kea posted an address-related detail about something or other, and he thought she was doing some dark magic voodoo shemozzle rather than a WHOIS directory search on publicly-available information 🤣


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## Fozzie Bear (Jul 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Are anarchist groups Data Protection compliant these days or do they have a more laissez-faire attitude?


Looks like the AF has a safer spaces policy but not a data protection one.

Whereas the ACG would appear to have a data protection policy but not a safer spaces one.

I shall leave it to people to draw their own conclusions from this.


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## LDC (Jul 25, 2022)

Need to mash them in to a single safer data spacer policy, maybe SolFed will do that.


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 25, 2022)

Those with The Files don't talk about The Files 👍


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## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Those with The Files don't talk about The Files 👍


but they do have a data protection policy whereas the groups without files don't


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Those with The Files don't talk about The Files 👍



We just continually add to them…


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> but they do have a data protection policy whereas the groups without files don't


Has gone a bit Lord of the Files. If 2017 was the conch getting smashed.


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## hitmouse (Jul 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> but they do have a data protection policy whereas the groups without files don't


Trying to submit a Subject Access Request to those with The Files rarely gets positive results either.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 25, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Looks like the AF has a safer spaces policy but not a data protection one.
> 
> Whereas the ACG would appear to have a data protection policy but not a safer spaces one.
> 
> I shall leave it to people to draw their own conclusions from this.


It seems that my browser's safer spaces policy does not like the AF:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 25, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Trying to submit a Subject Access Request to those with The Files rarely gets positive results either.


I told you, the SAR is only supposed to be for your own info


----------



## krink (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So in the spirit of equality, a sentiment that most anarchists would agree with, we should be informed of the employment details of the organisers and all stall holders to ensure there aren’t any other conflicts of interest in our midst. Would be a shame to be part of building a culture where being open and honest leads to censure which encourages deceit.


If they're choosing to work for fascists like Putin then yes. Otherwise there's no line and coppers and screws and mi5 agents can all have a table too.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 26, 2022)

krink said:


> If they're choosing to work for fascists like Putin then yes. Otherwise there's no line and coppers and screws and mi5 agents can all have a table too.


I don't personally agree with Ms McKenzie writing articles for RT. But neither am I willing to pony up to put food on her table and her articles don't appear to be supporting Putin.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't personally agree with Ms McKenzie writing articles for RT. But neither am I willing to pony up to put food on her table and her articles don't appear to be supporting Putin.


RT is a pretty blatant Kremlin propaganda outfit.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> RT is a pretty blatant Kremlin propaganda outfit.


And most 'free' press have their own burdens to carry.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And most 'free' press have their own burdens to carry.


Are there many people who write for the Times applying for stalls?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Are there many people who write for the Times applying for stalls?


Are there many anarchists applying for stalls?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are there many anarchists applying for stalls?


Presumably.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Presumably.


So we presume most. But expel the known. LOL.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So we presume most. But expel the known. LOL.





Magnus McGinty said:


> So we presume most. But expel the known. LOL.


Lisa should do her own bookfair.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Lisa should do her own bookfair.


I've heard her speak at many. I've seen you heckle at one. If that now makes you the lord of it all.


----------



## tim (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Lisa should do her own bookfair.


In a Cereal Cafe.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I've heard her speak at many. I've seen you heckle at one. If that now makes you the lord of it all.


I've spoken at a couple iirc. 

What did you see me heckle?


----------



## tim (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Are there many people who write for the Times applying for stalls?


I'm sure Simon Jenkins from the Guardian will have one.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2022)




----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 3, 2022)

Who's.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Who's.



Might be a theological debate.


----------



## andysays (Aug 3, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Who's.


You're banned (for pedantry...)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Might be a theological debate.


How many angels can dance on an apostrophe?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

Danny is _theologically_ opposed to gerunds


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 3, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Danny is _theologically_ opposed to gerunds


That was my thinking.


----------



## Sue (Aug 3, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Danny is _theologically_ opposed to gerunds


Gerunds are surely an ecumenical matter..?


----------



## JimW (Aug 3, 2022)

Gerunds for divorce.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2022)

JimW said:


> Gerunds for divorce.


Coffee gerunds


----------



## Wilf (Aug 3, 2022)

Played for Liverpool I believe, Steve Gerund, quite liked Phil Collins (well, _liking _I suppose).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

"I'm not so into gerunds, but I am what you might call gerundive"


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2022)

This whole thing is just going gerund and gerund in circles now.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> This whole thing is just going gerund and gerund in circles now.


A circling is as a circling does 🤷


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 3, 2022)

Strange things are afoot at the circle A.


----------



## JimW (Aug 3, 2022)

Don't let the bastards gerund you down.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 3, 2022)

A gazunder, seen recently:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

Do you know how to get gerunds to Chester Zoo without going under any low bridges?


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Do you know how to get gerunds to Chester Zoo without going under any low bridges?



First exit at the gerundabout.


----------



## JimW (Aug 3, 2022)

Gerundrisse.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

Just watch out for cyclists without syntax


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

JimW said:


> Gerundrisse.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 3, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Who's.


No, I think you're getting mixed up, the thread about whether Who's a space refugee, and if that counts as an anarchist issue, is over here. Unless you were meaning to say that your favourite live album is the Who's Live at Leeds, in which case you want this one, although I think voting's closed now. Either way, this thread is about the anarchist bookfair.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 3, 2022)

London ACG applied for a stall some time ago, and since, radio silence like last year. Not even a "disinclined".


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 3, 2022)

Nobs


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 4, 2022)

It's gerundhog day


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 4, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> London ACG applied for a stall some time ago, and since, radio silence like last year. Not even a "disinclined".


I'd read the whole Lisa McKenzie saga upthread, and had been thinking up till now "well, good on them, you might not agree with their decision but at least they're bothering to set out clear reasons for their refusals this time around, so they seem to have learned some lessons from last year." Clearly I was being a bit too optimistic there. Maybe if McKenzie sends in an email asking if the ACG can have a stall, she might get an explanation?

Also, for fans of bookfairs, separate from the Manchester Anarchist Bookfair that'll be happening in November, there's going to be a bookfair of small press publishers happening in Manchester in September. Applications are open until August 19th if the ACG, AWW, LMK or anyone else fancies trying their luck:


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 4, 2022)

So the anarchist bookfair in its current carnation allows sales of magazines defending Tara Flick Wolf but doesn’t allow the ACG - and let’s not pretend the shitty treatment the ACG have been dealing with (for a while now) isn’t linked to the fall out around the time of the Hyde park incident.


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 4, 2022)

Elderly anarchists have to stand outside and inside you can read about how some violent prick is the victim of something or other. Safer spaces woohoo


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 7, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> So the anarchist bookfair in its current carnation allows sales of magazines defending Tara Flick Wolf but doesn’t allow the ACG - and let’s not pretend the shitty treatment the ACG have been dealing with (for a while now) isn’t linked to the fall out around the time of the Hyde park incident.


What Hyde park incident?


----------



## A380 (Aug 7, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Elderly anarchists have to stand outside…



Couldn’t they bring those little folding chairs? Go Outdoors are doing cheap ones for £4.99 at the moment.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> What Hyde park incident?


It's a reference to an altercation that happened in September 2017, that was not entirely unconnected to the later kerfuffle at that year's bookfair:








						De-TERFing Speaker’s Corner
					

[CW for violence; descriptions of trans misogyny; racism] Over two and a half years have passed since a confrontation at Hyde Park Corner between trans protestors and a group of transphobes. The in…




					freedomnews.org.uk
				




I don't know what conversations may have happened about it within the AF in 2017, but since the ACG was founded in 2018 and, afaik, have never made any comment on the case, it'd be a bit weird to base a decision about giving them a stall on their perceived attitudes to that incident?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2022)

Burning the banner still rankles me.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> It's a reference to an altercation that happened in September 2017, that was not entirely unconnected to the later kerfuffle at that year's bookfair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"The whole thing barely would have raised eyebrows at a Wetherspoons any Friday night. "

Is this true ? tbh I have never seen too much trouble in Weatherspoons on a Friday night. 4 o'clock on a Thursday /Friday afternoon after an all day session yes and weirdly once after a wedding but rarely on a Friday night. Neither the AF or ACG were involved btw.


----------



## LDC (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> "The whole thing barely would have raised eyebrows at a Wetherspoons any Friday night. "
> 
> Is this true ? tbh I have never seen too much trouble in Weatherspoons on a Friday night. 4 o'clock on a Thursday /Friday afternoon after an all day session yes and weirdly once after a wedding but rarely on a Friday night. Neither the AF or ACG were involved btw.



Read a bit sneery to me that line in the article about Weatherspoons tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> So the anarchist bookfair in its current carnation allows sales of magazines defending Tara Flick Wolf but doesn’t allow the ACG - and let’s not pretend the shitty treatment the ACG have been dealing with (for a while now) isn’t linked to the fall out around the time of the Hyde park incident.


So much of the malaise afflicting the anarchist movement can be traced back to the hyde park incident


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> Read a bit sneery to me that line tbh.


Your joking surely? I've consistently defended Weatherspoons on here over the  years .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Your joking surely? I've consistently defended Weatherspoons on here over the  years .


For shame


----------



## LDC (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Your joking surely? I've consistently defended Weatherspoons on here over the  years .



Not yr post, the line in the article. Like a slight dig at Weatherspoons being rough and there always being trouble there. (Have edited my post to try and make clearer.)


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> Not yr post, the line in the article. Like a slight dig at Weatherspoons being rough and there always being trouble there. (Have edited my post to try and make clearer.)


Yes I agree .Sort of line that would have been written by someone who would never dream of stepping into Weatherspoons at any time of the day .


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 7, 2022)

The anarchist movement really is in a dire state if they're letting people who don't drink in Wetherspoons write for Freedom nowdays.  Whatever happened to our time-honoured institutions?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> London ACG applied for a stall some time ago, and since, radio silence like last year. Not even a "disinclined".


I think the ACG as a whole, not just the London lodge , have a lot to learn from groups like Skaters Against the War . You only get out what you put into the anarchist scene imo


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> It's a reference to an altercation that happened in September 2017, that was not entirely unconnected to the later kerfuffle at that year's bookfair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't aware of these, and I'm not aware of the people involved.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I wasn't aware of these, and I'm not aware of the people involved.


Ignorance is no defence at the People's Tribunal 🤷


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 7, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Ignorance is no defence at the People's Tribunal 🤷


Fuck vanguards.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I wasn't aware of these, and I'm not aware of the people involved.


Yeah, I struggle to see the connection between Hyde Park and the ACG myself, but then maybe things look different from London?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, I struggle to see the connection between Hyde Park and the ACG myself, but then maybe things look different from London?


(Some) people in London can often be very parochial and provincial.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Fuck vans.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 7, 2022)

This conversation seems to have run away from me, as is often the case.

Since I appear to be getting into hot water, I should say, in fairness to my comrades in the ACG, that I have had to discontinue my membership for personal reasons, and I do not speak for them in the matter of  sex with vehicles, dogging, any other fetishes, or indeed the relevance of events in or around Hyde Park, from the open air Stones gig to the present day.

To my knowledge, I was once in Hyde Park in the early 80s.  I don't think I have been there since.


----------



## A380 (Aug 7, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 336419


That's really offensive.

It's obviously not a van but an early series Range Rover. Besides the quote was 'fuck vanguards' so the picture should have been of 

But this kind of puerile schoolboy humour has no place on a serious thread like this one. Next you will be writing of the man who got burnt trying to have sex with a Princess. For shame DaveCinzano  , for shame.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2022)

A380 said:


> That's really offensive.
> 
> It's obviously not a van but an early series Range Rover. Besides the quote was 'fuck vanguards' so the picture should have been of View attachment 336421
> 
> But this kind of puerile schoolboy humour has no place on a serious thread like this one. Next you will be writing of the man who got burnt trying to have sex with a Princess. Foe shame DaveCinzano  , for shame.


I work with the raw materials I have - if you would permit me - _to hand_, so mea culpa


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I wasn't aware of these, and I'm not aware of the people involved.


You were in Weatherspoons at the time sort of defence ?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> You were in Weatherspoons at the time sort of defence ?


I was elsewhere in the world sort of defence.  I've been in London around 4 or 5 times in my lifetime.  I have never attended a London bookfair, anarchist or otherwise. 

I did visit Marx's grave on one visit, though.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Tbh I can’t work out this thing in Hyde Park


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I was elsewhere in the world sort of defence.  I've been in London around 4 or 5 times in my lifetime.  I have never attended a London bookfair, anarchist or otherwise.
> 
> I did visit Marx's grave on one visit, though.


Marx is buried next to my grandparents, reactionary Irish Catholics, who would turn in their graves (where else?) if they knew their proximity to Karl.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Marx is buried next to my grandparents, reactionary Irish Catholics, who would turn in their graves (where else?) if they knew their proximity to Karl.


He died in 1883. When did your grandparents pass away ? How old are you ? Is there a history of cryonics in your family ?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> He died in 1883. When did your grandparents pass away ? How old are you ? Is there a history of cryonics in your family ?


That's a lot of questions. However, last time I checked it was quite normal for people of all ages (at time of death) to be buried in the same cemetery and not necessarily in chronological order.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 7, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> That's a lot of questions. However, last time I checked it was quite normal for people of all ages (at time of death) to be buried in the same cemetery and not necessarily in chronological order.


Asking a lot of questions is the anarchist bookfair thread way, your answers will be recorded and entered into an mysterious matrix that may affect your credit score and/or ability to get a table at the bookfair.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Asking a lot of questions is the anarchist bookfair thread way, your answers will be recorded and entered into an mysterious matrix that may affect your credit score and/or ability to get a table at the bookfair.


I fully expect to be offered a table, as I haven't asked for one. That's where ACG get it wrong, they try too hard.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> That's a lot of questions. However, last time I checked it was quite normal for people of all ages (at time of death) to be buried in the same cemetery and not necessarily in chronological order.


Ah . Thanks , that explains some of it . Ok ignore the first two and come straight to the point about the third issue


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 7, 2022)

Anyone with a spare £18,000 (most expensive in the UK) can be buried in Highgate if a plot is available.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Is there a history of cryonics in your family?


Hang on. I'll just thaw one of them out and ask them?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Anyone with a spare £18,000 (most expensive in the UK) can be buried in Highgate if a plot is available.


I'll bag a couple  first thing tomorrow.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 7, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> (Some) people in London can often be very parochial and provincial.



Yeah, some will even make eye contact on the Tube.  They’re usually just visiting, though.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 7, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Anyone with a spare £18,000 (most expensive in the UK) can be buried in Highgate if a plot is available.



What’s that?  18k per month or per week?


----------



## A380 (Aug 8, 2022)

Now I'm not an anarchist but I think it would be fantastic if there was an Urban 75 stall at the bookfair?

Could we get one? there are enough anarchists of different stripes  on here that  it wouldn't be miss-representation. We could sell hardcopies of classic threads.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Could we get one? there are enough anarchists of different stripes on here that it wouldn't be miss-representation. We could sell hardcopies of classic threads.



or do jacket spuds


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Now I'm not an anarchist but I think it would be fantastic if there was an Urban 75 stall at the bookfair?
> 
> Could we get one? there are enough anarchists of different stripes  on here that  it wouldn't be miss-representation. We could sell hardcopies of classic threads.



I think laminated sheets of threads in ring binders would be a great idea.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Now I'm not an anarchist but I think it would be fantastic if there was an Urban 75 stall at the bookfair?
> 
> Could we get one? there are enough anarchists of different stripes  on here that  it wouldn't be miss-representation. We could sell hardcopies of classic threads.


Live action re-enactments of classic threads


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Live action re-enactments of classic threads


 Classic LeftEnders episodes like Steve Hedley vs the Clapton Ultras.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Live action re-enactments of classic threads


LARPtastic idea! Who would you come as?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2022)

brogdale said:


> LARPtastic idea! Who would you come as?


There's a pm group discussing this


----------



## brogdale (Aug 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> There's a pm group discussing this


Oh lawd; I really am having a Jonesy day!


----------



## kenny g (Aug 20, 2022)

I well remember meeting The Black Hand who was previously of this forum distributing edited down print outs of Ian bones then blog  at the book fair. They actually made quite a good read. Nice bloke as well. We could have the collected witticisms of Pickman's model as the main money raiser.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 20, 2022)

A380 said:


> Now I'm not an anarchist


That seems to be the primary requirement to be able to have a stall.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 5, 2022)

They have a group list on their website now. Is this the list of general book fair supporting groups or a list of stalls? or something else?









						Groups
					

Anarchist Bookfair in London page




					anarchistbookfair.london


----------



## A380 (Sep 5, 2022)

TopCat said:


> They have a group list on their website now. Is this the list of general book fair supporting groups or a list of stalls? or something else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 No link to Urban ☹️


----------



## kenny g (Sep 5, 2022)

A380 said:


> No link to Urban ☹️


Since U75 has generally been, at best, critical friends, and, at worst, piss takers, I am hardly surprised.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 6, 2022)




----------



## rich! (Sep 6, 2022)

LDC said:


> Well, we still don't know why, and tbf there _could_ be a fair explanation as I have said on here already. (I doubt there is personally, but am trying to suspend judgement until hear more.)
> 
> rich! still hasn't come back with any justification for calling her a fascist, so the Bookfair aren't the only ones acting like unaccountable toddlers.


ah sorry, seems like I was confused by someone with a similar name and didn't update.
As you were.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 6, 2022)

I called in at the Bradford Bookfair on Saturday.  Wasn't there long and didn't get a chance to chat as the poetry reading was just starting.  Did seem pretty quiet though.  On the plus side, I picked up a copy of the Angry Workers, Class Power on Zero Hours.


----------



## LDC (Sep 6, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I called in at the Bradford Bookfair on Saturday.  Wasn't there long and didn't get a chance to chat as the poetry reading was just starting.  Did seem pretty quiet though.  On the plus side, I picked up a copy of the Angry Workers, Class Power on Zero Hours.



I bloody sold you that most likely! Wish I'd known! Bookfair was a bit shit tbh.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 6, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Angry Workers, Class Power on Zero Hours.


It’s a good read. Recommended.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 6, 2022)

LDC said:


> I bloody sold you that most likely! Wish I'd known! Bookfair was a bit shit tbh.


You were sat on the table when the poetry was on and I was behind you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2022)

kenny g said:


> We could have the collected witticisms of Pickman's model as the main money raiser.


and it'd be a bestseller. only they're all available free of charge on the internet.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 6, 2022)

TopCat said:


> They have a group list on their website now. Is this the list of general book fair supporting groups or a list of stalls? or something else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds from that like AFed have now also fallen out of favour and been cast out into the outer darkness? Except for the East Anglia AF, who I think are unrelated? Also, I appreciate how ravi.sta seems to be a fan of the three Rs, repetition repetition repetition.


Rob Ray said:


> View attachment 341266


Fair play to them, that is a pretty solid lineup of topics. Slightly confused by how it seems that most of the groups running workshops aren't listed under the "groups" page, but hey ho, not my bookfair.


danny la rouge said:


> It’s a good read. Recommended.


At the risk of sullying this bookfair thread with discussion of books, I am looking forward to getting around to reading the new one at some point soon.


----------



## LDC (Sep 6, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Fair play to them, that is a pretty solid lineup of topics. Slightly confused by how it seems that most of the groups running workshops aren't listed under the "groups" page, but hey ho, not my bookfair.



Think they're just a bit flakey and disorganized tbh and the website bit shit too.


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2022)

Death of monarch = train strikes called off = more people able to go to Bookfair.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2022)

cesare said:


> Death of monarch = train strikes called off = more people able to go to Bookfair.


I hope the organisers will provide a space for quiet reflection in these difficult times.


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I hope the organisers will provide a space for quiet reflection in these difficult times.


Wetherspoons 😎👍


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2022)

cesare said:


> Wetherspoons 😎👍


BUT NO FUCKING 🫡 👑 ⚰️


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> BUT NO FUCKING 🫡 👑 ⚰️
> 
> View attachment 342406


Extra points for the archaism, but I'd have preferred _French Letter_.  Missed opportunity.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> BUT NO FUCKING 🫡 👑 ⚰️


Shameful phallocentrist cis-heteronormativity, comrade.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 12, 2022)

A380 said:


> We could sell hardcopies of classic threads.


no you're all right mate


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Shameful phallocentrist cis-heteronormativity, comrade.


I think 'sheath' covers plenty of options 👍


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 12, 2022)

No meeting on the Monarchy?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> No meeting on the Monarchy?


_Out of respect_ 👍


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> No meeting on the Monarchy?


Probably more huddles about the non-federal unions creating the space for the Bookfair and insisting that the strike goes ahead and if not to boycott the Bookfair as a result, etc and etc. Or maybe that’s the swappies.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> I think 'sheath' covers plenty of options 👍


Still not having a stall.


----------



## A380 (Sep 12, 2022)

Does that mean someone else can have the stall the Queen booked?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2022)

A380 said:


> Does that mean someone else can have the stall the Queen booked?


I guess Charles has to do it, same as all the other duties.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 12, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> BUT NO FUCKING 🫡 👑 ⚰️
> 
> View attachment 342406


This seems like as good a place as any to share the picture I took in a bookshop that actually had a helpful sign for anyone shagging in the toilets:



Wilf said:


> Still not having a stall.


Now I want someone to make that as a sticker, along the lines of that pink "still not hearting police" one that the Germans love. You know the one, right?


----------



## JHE (Sep 13, 2022)

The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...


----------



## A380 (Sep 13, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596


You can just smell the neck-bearded manchilld posting from his mum's spare room...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596


I don't think I've ever met one of these self-proclaimed anarchist leaders


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2022)

Full Stop Affinity ride again? 


AGENDA       TERF WAR        UNITY


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

Something or other apparently needs to be done by force. I have no idea what or to whom.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 13, 2022)

"motivate our troops" WTF


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Something or other apparently needs to be done by force. I have no idea what or to whom.


Remedial leaflet writing should beckon


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "motivate our troops" WTF


Seems like the placard's author/s aren't averse to a bit of hierarchy


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596


..."gate keeping our collective ability to organise..."


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596


Where was this jpeg lodged? Was it nailed to the door of the Bishopsgate Institute?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Where was this jpeg lodged? Was it nailed to the door of the Bishopsgate Institute?


Stuck with chewing gum to the door of larc?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think I've ever met one of these self-proclaimed anarchist leaders


i dont know how you could miss that great big row of them continuously standing in a line blocking the next generation


unless perhaps YOU are in that line???


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i dont know how you could miss that great big row of them continuously standing in a line blocking the next generation
> 
> 
> unless perhaps YOU are in that line???


I'm not blocking anyone, me


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not blocking anyone, me


Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2022)

I don't know about you, but I for one am looking forward to when this lot takes over and we see an immediate increase in support from THE BLACK AND ASIAN COMMUNITIES, WOMAN, TRANS AND LGBT+ COMMUNITIES, AS WELL AS WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES.


----------



## A380 (Sep 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Seems like the placard's author/s aren't averse to a bit of hierarchy


Presumably they are absolutely fine with a hierarchy as long as they are at the top of it?


----------



## A380 (Sep 13, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Come senators, congressmen
> Please heed the call
> Don't stand in the doorway
> Don't block up the hall
> ...


I hope you didn't accompany that on an electric guitar? Judas!


----------



## A380 (Sep 13, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I don't know about you, but I for one am looking forward to when this lot takes over and we see an immediate increase in support from THE BLACK AND ASIAN COMMUNITIES, WOMAN, TRANS AND LGBT+ COMMUNITIES, AS WELL AS WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES.


I guess that means that black, Asian,  Trans and LGBQ people are both all men and can't be working class?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> I hope you didn't accompany that on an electric guitar? Judas!


🙄 get with it, fogey folky!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 13, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596


Peak John Dines 🤣


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think I've ever met one of these self-proclaimed anarchist leaders


wasn’t that social work lecturer that used to post on here one of them ?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2022)

I'm planning on brining a piece of paper to the Bookfair, with 'I am not a gate keeper' on, to gain admittance.  Then, if I'm really brave, I'll turn it over to make it an arrestable royal funeral offence,


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I'm planning on brining a piece of paper to the Bookfair, with 'I am not a gate keeper' on, to gain admittance.  Then, if I'm really brave, I'll turn it over to make it an arrestable royal funeral offence,


More FORCE required Wilf


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> More FORCE required Wilf


Ooh, no, I'll leave that to the *NEXT GENERATION OF UNRULY YOUTH*!


----------



## TopCat (Sep 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> wasn’t that social work lecturer that used to post on here one of them ?


Who was that? I would have homed in if I knew. Why does not one tell me stuff!


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> that social work lecturer that used to post on here


Or you could narrow it down…


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

I know, it was that amateur dj!


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596


By the way, JHE , where did you find this particular revolutionary communique?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 13, 2022)

Wasn’t Montevideo anyway


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

Wilf said:


> By the way, JHE , where did you find this particular revolutionary communique?


I did ask that also, but I added satire and an historical allusion to the reformation, so my question was perhaps lost in the smartarsery.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2022)

Wilf said:


> By the way, JHE , where did you find this particular revolutionary communique?


I was intrigued by that, doing a reverse image search I mostly found terfs making fun of it, but eventually tracked it down to this fb page that appeared to be sharing it unironically?


----------



## LDC (Sep 13, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I was intrigued by that, doing a reverse image search I mostly found terfs making fun of it, but eventually tracked it down to this fb page that appeared to be sharing it unironically?



The page is also sharing Enough is Enough rally details. I think they're slightly confused in their politics the loons.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2022)

LDC said:


> The page is also sharing Enough is Enough rally details. I think they're slightly confused in their politics the loons.


Including one with a video of Eddie Dempsey. And then having a go at the Don't Pay campaign because of Russel Brand? 
Not the sharpest knives in the drawer


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

On the other hand, they’re against capitalist action, and I am too.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2022)

Ah the new generation, seasons turn etc etc ...






						Crack Fix Propaganda: A work of fan fiction
					

Fan fiction about a day in the life misanthropic animal rights nutter "anarchist" punk, Crack Fix Propaganda.




					libcom.org
				




(though if they are who I suspect, they're really getting on a bit to be making that claim).


----------



## JHE (Sep 13, 2022)

Wilf said:


> By the way, JHE , where did you find this particular revolutionary communique?


Leftist Trainspotters, a group on Facebook


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2022)

For what it's worth, shared this image with a gen-z anarchist friend (yes, I definitely have friends, hundreds of PMs of support, etc), who comments "How are they hoping to call out “outdated politics” with that font? I feel like I’m back in the 2010s."


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 13, 2022)

My kids say things like that. “Oh, you can tell that was made in the 2010s”. Dude, that decade only ended less than two years ago.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2022)

If they're meaning mid-2010s they're probably right, tbf. People who came of age just after the student riot generation so think they're the new wave, and reckon movement "gatekeepers" are from the 80s (ie. their parents' generation or a bit older).


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2022)

Anyway, people who set up “generations” against each other are silly cunts.


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 14, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596



would the person that wrote this pish not just have been better meeting the three others who cared in the pub, or online?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> would the person that wrote this pish not just have been better meeting the three others who cared in the pub, or online?


“Other three”.


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 14, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> “Other three”.



^^ 80s authoritarian policing use of language


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> ^^ 80s authoritarian policing use of language


Look, I’ve lived in other decades too!  I didn’t even _like_ the 80s!


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 14, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Look, I’ve lived in other decades too!  I didn’t even _like_ the 80s!



The dusty pamphleteer doth protest too much, methinks


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> The dusty pamphleteer doth protest too much, methinks


I can do pdfs ffs.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 14, 2022)

Hmm, if they're planning on disrupting the meeting at LARC with Martin Wright and Lisa McKenzie they might be in for a rough ride. Martin may be getting older but he's still tough.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2022)

People have attacked the LARC before. They did not do well. One got a  crease in his head that makes me smile to this day. 
Anyway, where are people thinking for a few beers? A split site do does not make it obvious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2022)

TopCat said:


> People have attacked the LARC before. They did not do well. One got a  crease in his head that makes me smile to this day.
> Anyway, where are people thinking for a few beers? A split site do does not make it obvious.


Take outs ftw


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Hmm, if they're planning on disrupting the meeting at LARC with Martin Wright and Lisa McKenzie they might be in for a rough ride. Martin may be getting older but he's still tough.


He will relish the opportunity to dub someone eg sir fabian


----------



## nogojones (Sep 14, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I was intrigued by that, doing a reverse image search I mostly found terfs making fun of it, but eventually tracked it down to this fb page that appeared to be sharing it unironically?


Interesting page. Three of my FB friends "like" it. None of those three I'd consider in any way political.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> If they're meaning mid-2010s they're probably right, tbf. People who came of age just after the student riot generation so think they're the new wave, and reckon movement "gatekeepers" are from the 80s (ie. their parents' generation or a bit older).


Yeah, and the peak of Impact as a font must've been early 2010s, it's a bit more trollface rage comics than it is wojak? Anyway, my guess would've been a bit younger, but then again the mention of friends lists suggests they prefer to waste time on facebook rather than insta or tiktok, which is pretty boomer of them?


danny la rouge said:


> Anyway, people who set up “generations” against each other are silly cunts.


I once again reminded of that bit from Floodgates of Anarchy:


> Driven to admit that there is, perhaps, some tension in society, when perhaps overwhelming pressure brings industry to a standstill or barricades to the streets years after the liberals had dismissed the notion as “dated romanticism”, the journalist invents the theory that this constitutes a clash of generations. Youth, after all, is not a permanent condition, and a clash of generations is not so fundamentally dangerous to the art of government as would be a clash between rulers and ruled.


But then again, I suppose Christie and Meltzer would say that, the fucking boomers.  (Not that that term's really accurate in Meltzer's case.)


steeplejack said:


> The dusty pamphleteer doth protest too much, methinks


Oh, is The Dusty Pamphleteer where everyone's meeting for drinks after the bookfair?


charlie mowbray said:


> Hmm, if they're planning on disrupting the meeting at LARC with Martin Wright and Lisa McKenzie they might be in for a rough ride. Martin may be getting older but he's still tough.


You're giving them a bit more credit than I would if you reckon they're actually going to do anything in real life. I could be wrong, but my prediction would be for them to do fuckall on the day, then put out a statement complaining how everyone else's failure to disrupt the meeting for them proves once again that they're the only real anarchists and everyone else is counterrevolutionary gatekeepers.


nogojones said:


> Interesting page. Three of my FB friends "like" it. None of those three I'd consider in any way political.


*WE SEE YOU WITH ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO LIKE THAT PAGE ON YOUR FRIENDS LIST.*


Anyway, going back to that original image, I think them signing it off with "working class unity" has been under-rated so far, that detail is a fantastic comic touch.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 14, 2022)

It would appear to be a page by Very Online people. 

Given that a reasonably prominent London trans anarchist who was active in the 1980s* is slagging them in the comments for anonymously shit-stirring about unnamed people immediately before the bookfair, I think most of us can rest easy.

*I once clambered up onto the plinth of Nelson's column to give them a magazine, in fact.


----------



## kenny g (Sep 14, 2022)

Are there any details anywhere about the Martin talk at LARC?


----------



## kenny g (Sep 14, 2022)

ETA found it. 6pm at LARC.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 17, 2022)

Good to see at least one young chap wearing a balaclava.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 17, 2022)

Shout out also to Bishopsgate for pulling out some stone cold classics from their voluminous archives.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 17, 2022)

Outside the Bookfair update:

ACG
ICC
Queer Feminist Artists


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 17, 2022)

Oh is it today?  And they didn’t postpone out of respect?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 17, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Outside the Bookfair update:
> 
> ACG
> ICC
> Queer Feminist Artists


And me, at the moment (having a brew, not banned).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Good to see at least one young chap wearing a balaclava.


Shielding 👍


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Outside the Bookfair update:
> 
> ACG
> ICC
> Queer Feminist Artists


SPGB RIP? Also, what did QFA do to end up on the naughty step?


danny la rouge said:


> Oh is it today?  And they didn’t postpone out of respect?


If I was a bitter, mean-spirited person who liked to make snide digs, I might point out that, at the time of the kerfuffle that led to the demise of the previous anarchist bookfair, there was that open letter that had, as its first demand, "To change the date of the LABF in future years so it does not clash with the United Friends & Family Campaign Annual Demonstration and to actively promote attendance at the annual UFFC March." And, five years later, here we are, with the shiny new improved anarchist bookfair taking place on the same day as a major protest against a police killing. Not really having a go at the organisers for that, just reflecting on the fact that organising major events is actually quite hard and maybe it might possibly be counterproductive to denounce organisers for crimes such as not being able to find a perfect date when nothing else important is happening in London?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 17, 2022)

A friend of mine attended the bookfair today, said you could smell the liberalism and that there was alot of lifestylist types there. He actually doesn't much mind the lifestylism thing, though he sees its limitations, but its not really my thing. I'm glad I didn't bother going tbh. He also told me that he heard about a hateful flyer or something circulating about Martin Lux and Lisa McKenzie - saying that they are anarchists from the 1980's who've 'had their way for too long' or something and 'need to be stopped, with violence if necessary.'

Crazy stuff if that is the case but no doubt Martin and Lisa won't care one bit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 17, 2022)

JHE said:


> The little splatter of blood at the bottom does look like a threat to the dreadful old outdated fake anarchist gate-keepers blah blah...
> 
> View attachment 342596





AmateurAgitator said:


> A friend of mine attended the bookfair today, said you could smell the liberalism and that it was all very lifestylist types there. I'm glad I didn't bother going tbh. He also told me that he heard about a hateful flyer or something circulating about Martin Lux and Lisa McKenzie - saying that they are anarchists from the 1980's who've 'had their way for too long' or something and 'need to be stopped, with violence if necessary.'
> 
> Crazy stuff but no doubt Martin and Lisa won't care one bit.


Would it be a hard copy of the above?

I hadn’t realised Martin or Lisa did “have their way”, to be honest. They’re certainly not leaders of anything, self-proclaimed or otherwise.

🤷‍♂️


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 17, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Would it be a hard copy of the above?
> 
> I hadn’t realised Martin or Lisa did “have their way”, to be honest. They’re certainly not leaders of anything, self-proclaimed or otherwise.
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


Yeah that must be it. I heard it was supposed to be aimed at Martin and Lisa, thats the theory.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2022)

The idea that some 'old guard' from the '80s/'90s or whenever is somehow gatekeeping the 'movement' and preventing widespread involvement by THE BLACK AND ASIAN COMMUNITIES, WOMAN, TRANS AND LGBT+ COMMUNITIES, AS WELL AS WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES is honestly quite deluded and paranoid.

It's one of the most incoherent and nonsense leaflets I've seen.

I'm sure all that type of anger and rage used to be directed in some sort of focused way, it does seem now people go off in all sorts of directions, as much towards their own as anywhere else. It's all a bit Four Lions 'blow up the mosque'. I know it's not unproblematic to say this, but imo some of this lot are actually deeply messed up, and because of that have maybe lost a bit of a sense of politics outside their incoherent rage and own traumas. I'm willing to bet in 10-20 years mostly they'll look back at that leaflet and cringe at themselves.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> A friend of mine attended the bookfair today, said you could smell the liberalism and that there was alot of lifestylist types there. He actually doesn't much mind the lifestylism thing, though he sees its limitations, but its not my thing at all. I'm glad I didn't bother going tbh. He also told me that he heard about a hateful flyer or something circulating about Martin Lux and Lisa McKenzie - saying that they are anarchists from the 1980's who've 'had their way for too long' or something and 'need to be stopped, with violence if necessary.'
> 
> Crazy stuff if that is the case but no doubt Martin and Lisa won't care one bit.


"need to be stopped, with violence if necessary"

FFS; twats


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 18, 2022)

That was my last London Anarchist Bookfair. I won't be going again.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> That was my last London Anarchist Bookfair. I won't be going again.


I say that every year too


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 18, 2022)

With me it's for real.


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

How come charlie mowbray? I haven't been since the 2017 debacle, but was intending to go this year but was ill so couldn't. After seeing that leaflet I was in part pleased I couldn't go!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

I didn’t get many books but did see some great people.

The tour of the archives with Stef Dickers was excellent and included the minute book of the First International and a Suffragettes tea set along with some very funny stories.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2022)

Not a terrible event, but quite sceney.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

There were more stalls than usual of an “insurrectionary” nature, as well as what I guess you would all herbalists and arty types.

No AK Press or Haringey Solidarity Group.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Not a terrible event, but quite sceney.


Yeah that’s about the size of it really.


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

Very strange that all those Bookfairs for decades run by the gatekeeping anarchist cliche keeping all those people away were so much bigger and had wider attendance than this one? And this one didn't seem to meet those demands made by the letter hitmouse posted above either. Fuck all chance of them having any reflections on these things though...


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yeah that’s about the size of it really.


Must be getting old and grumpy but the Euro punk antics outside Bishopsgate were pretty embarrassing.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Must be getting old and grumpy but the Euro punk antics outside Bishopsgate were pretty embarrassing.


Ah I missed that, but hard to disagree.

LDC it's hard to gauge attendance by punters because it was split over three sites. But I left at 1:00ish and it did seem quieter than previous ones. And obviously there was no huge influx of BAME people that I noticed or the other marginalised people who have apparently been gatekeeped out of the event previously.

I can't remember all of the many demands but Active weren't displaying their banner about religion.

Also I was genuinely excited to see Selma James on the list of speakers but an afternoon in the pub was more tempting.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> the Euro punk antics outside Bishopsgate


Pray tell


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Pray tell


Nothing that exciting, just cosplay drinking and being "outrageous"


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Must be getting old and grumpy but the Euro punk antics outside Bishopsgate were pretty embarrassing.


you've always been grumpy tbh


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> you've always been grumpy tbh


Fuck off, ray of fucking sunshine me.


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> SPGB RIP? Also, what did QFA do to end up on the naughty step?
> 
> If I was a bitter, mean-spirited person who liked to make snide digs, I might point out that, at the time of the kerfuffle that led to the demise of the previous anarchist bookfair, there was that open letter that had, as its first demand, "To change the date of the LABF in future years so it does not clash with the United Friends & Family Campaign Annual Demonstration and to actively promote attendance at the annual UFFC March." And, five years later, here we are, with the shiny new improved anarchist bookfair taking place on the same day as a major protest against a police killing. Not really having a go at the organisers for that, just reflecting on the fact that organising major events is actually quite hard and maybe it might possibly be counterproductive to denounce organisers for crimes such as not being able to find a perfect date when nothing else important is happening in London?


The comparison doesn’t make sense from the pov of organising an annual event though, the UFFC march being annually held on the same Saturday in October for years, vs protests in response to a killing which happened a couple of weeks beforehand.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> SPGB RIP? Also, what did QFA do to end up on the naughty step?
> 
> If I was a bitter, mean-spirited person who liked to make snide digs, I might point out that, at the time of the kerfuffle that led to the demise of the previous anarchist bookfair, there was that open letter that had, as its first demand, "To change the date of the LABF in future years so it does not clash with the United Friends & Family Campaign Annual Demonstration and to actively promote attendance at the annual UFFC March." And, five years later, here we are, with the shiny new improved anarchist bookfair taking place on the same day as a major protest against a police killing. Not really having a go at the organisers for that, just reflecting on the fact that organising major events is actually quite hard and maybe it might possibly be counterproductive to denounce organisers for crimes such as not being able to find a perfect date when nothing else important is happening in London?


The CWO did have a stall but weren't allowed to have a 'No War But The Class War' talk because the organisers are pro-war. Sorry, I mean have a more nuanced position on NATO.


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

nastyned said:


> The CWO did have a stall but weren't allowed to have a 'No War But The Class War' talk because the organisers are pro-war. Sorry, I mean have a more nuanced position on NATO.



That sounds like bullshit to me tbh. I'd be very surprised if that was true, any proof?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 18, 2022)

nastyned said:


> The CWO did have a stall but weren't allowed to have a 'No War But The Class War' talk because the organisers are pro-war. Sorry, I mean have a more nuanced position on NATO.


Wouldn't surprise me if that were true, but its good to back up what you're saying with evidence.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

I can only report what I heard from someone that spoke to the CWO. But I don't know why it sounds like bullshit. The two bookfair organisers I know have both written pro-war articles in the publications they're associated with (Freedom and Organise!). And the CWO didn't hold a talk this year at the bookfair.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2022)

nastyned said:


> The CWO did have a stall but weren't allowed to have a 'No War But The Class War' talk because the organisers are pro-war. Sorry, I mean have a more nuanced position on NATO.


What is a ‘ more nuanced position on NATO’ ?


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What is a ‘ more nuanced position on NATO’ ?


pro-


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

nastyned said:


> I can only report what I heard from someone that spoke to the CWO. But I don't know why it sounds like bullshit. The two bookfair organisers I know have both written pro-war articles in the publications they're associated with (Freedom and Organise!). And the CWO didn't hold a talk this year at the bookfair.



'Pro-war' - I think you might be mis-characterizing their positions somewhat. The CWO have never had a talk at the Bookfair afaik, so them not having one this year doesn't mean anything. It sounds like bullshit as the NWBTCW position is commonplace in the anarchist scene and groups, it seems highly unlikely that would be the reason a group was refused a talk to me.

It is quite odd there wasn't a talk/discussion on Ukraine, a sign of a more inward facing Bookfair?


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What is a ‘ more nuanced position on NATO’ ?



They clearly just mean a position they don't agree with.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2022)

would like to have seen an anarchist’s for NATO workshop


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> would like to have seen an anarchist’s for NATO workshop


I knew Anarchists for NATO wasn't just something in my own head...


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 18, 2022)

No, it is true, LDC, not bullshit. A member of the CWO showed me the email they had received from the LABF on his phone.


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> No, it is true, LDC, not bullshit. A member of the CWO showed me the email they had received from the LABF on his phone.



Wow, that's very odd, I am really surprised.

FFS as well, that's a totally fucked up reason to turn that talk down, the NWBTCW position is I'd guess a majority one in the anarchist groups. Also do think calling any positions that aren't that as 'pro-NATO' is incorrect, unhelpful and equally as juvenile as calling all the NWBTCW people as Putin apologists.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 18, 2022)

Went to the Lisa and Martin talk. Enjoyed it - if that’s the right way of putting it. Speakers and ensuing discussion recognising how (even more) grim things are going to get, but also ideas about how to push the anger into an anarchist direction. Was to tired to make a contribution (I’m always tired atm, v frustrating)

it was mentioned that it was being recorded. Looking forward to re-listening


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> They clearly just mean a position they don't agree with.


It comes from this article: Fuck leftist westplaining


----------



## A380 (Sep 18, 2022)

As a wanky reformist I must say that the shenanigans about organising a book fair  once a year don’t fill me with that much confidence about how an anarchist society would keep the electricity, water and telephone networks on…


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

Yeah, have seen and read that. I wouldn't call that article pro-war or pro-NATO though. TBH I think both the labels pro & anti-war are stupid and unhelpful when discussing this topic among ourselves.

Bonkers for the talk to be refused I think, but par for the course it seems nowadays to turn things down.

I do see how it can be challenging to walk the line between representing the broad church of anarchism but without putting lots of your own time into organising space for things that you very much disagree with. But I'd thought anyone taking on the Bookfair or an equivalent event would have thought about that and come to a way of dealing with it.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

A380 said:


> As a wanky reformist I must say that the shenanigans about organising a book fair  once a year don’t fill me with that much confidence about how an anarchist society would keep the electricity, water and telephone networks on…


Maybe some of them at least think NATO would step in and help.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, have seen and read that. I wouldn't call that article pro-war or pro-NATO though. TBH I think both the labels pro & anti-war are stupid and unhelpful when discussing this topic among ourselves.
> 
> Bonkers for the talk to be refused I think, but par for the course it seems nowadays to turn things down.
> 
> I do see how it can be challenging to walk the line between representing the broad church of anarchism but without putting lots of your own time into organising space for things that you very much disagree with. But I'd thought anyone taking on the Bookfair or an equivalent event would have thought about that and come to a way of dealing with it.


A serious response was written to that article and another even worse one Freedom posted. But I can't be arsed today.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, have seen and read that. I wouldn't call that article pro-war or pro-NATO though. TBH I think both the labels pro & anti-war are stupid and unhelpful when discussing this topic among ourselves.
> 
> Bonkers for the talk to be refused I think, but par for the course it seems nowadays to turn things down.
> 
> I do see how it can be challenging to walk the line between representing the broad church of anarchism but without putting lots of your own time into organising space for things that you very much disagree with. But I'd thought anyone taking on the Bookfair or an equivalent event would have thought about that and come to a way of dealing with it.


It's a bit of a rambling article tbf however whilst she might not be a fan of NATO ,  she is for NATO and its expansion isn't she?


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It's a bit of a rambling article tbf however whilst she might not be a fan of NATO ,  she is for NATO and its expansion isn't she?


Just when you thught the world couldn't get any more absurd, we seem to now have the spectacle of anarcho-communists cheering on the very same people who'd kill them when the day comes.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 18, 2022)

WTF are you on about?


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It's a bit of a rambling article tbf however whilst she might not be a fan of NATO ,  she is for NATO and its expansion isn't she?



Not sure, although I can see if coming from certain positions you might simplify it to that. Anyway surely we've done this discussion to death now? And this isn't the thread for it anyway.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> WTF are you on about?


I thought people were talking about anarchists who support NATO.


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## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

THERE AREN'T ANY. There are some anarchists/socialists/communist (many more of the later two than the former) who think this is a horrendously fucked up situation where there are no clearly easy or good decisions to be made (unless you're a long way away from Ukraine) and some of the compromises made are better than some of the alternatives. And given what's been happening in Russian occupied areas I think their case is much improved rather than weakened tbh.

But knock yourself out if it's better for you to engage in lazy simplifications to boost a feeling of ideological purity and correctness. Throw some stuff in about Ukrainian nazis if that helps as well.

What's weird is all this would have been discussed at the Bookfair in years past. Now none of this debate seems to be allowed. And some of that is replicated in part on here with all the name calling and simplifications tbh.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> THERE AREN'T ANY. There are some anarchists/socialists/communist (many more of the later two than the former) who think this is a horrendously fucked up situation where there are no clearly easy or good decisions to be made (unless you're a long way away from Ukraine) and some of the compromises made are better than some of the alternatives.



Oh you and your nuance.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Not sure, although I can see if coming from certain positions you might simplify it to that. Anyway surely we've done this discussion to death now? And this isn't the thread for it anyway.


Where is the thread to discuss the LABF  decision to ban CWO because they don't support NATO?


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Where is the thread to discuss the LABF  decision to ban CWO because they don't support NATO?



Except they weren't banned. And they weren't not banned for that made-up reason anyway. You're often one of the worst for misrepresenting people's positions and the facts on this.

People are mixing all sorts of different shit up in their heads. Not agreeing with a strict NWBTCW line does not equal 'support for NATO' ffs.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There were more stalls than usual of an “insurrectionary” nature, as well as what I guess you would all herbalists and arty types.
> 
> No AK Press or Haringey Solidarity Group. View attachment 343285


Mildly interested by the difference in emphasis between the stalls and the talks, which seemed a bit more class-focused to me (even if they didn't include a debate on who does and doesn't support NATO).


The39thStep said:


> would like to have seen an anarchist’s for NATO workshop


FFS, I can tell you missed my workshop on "anarcho-pedants for correct punctation".  


Shechemite said:


> Went to the Lisa and Martin talk. Enjoyed it - if that’s the right way of putting it. Speakers and ensuing discussion recognising how (even more) grim things are going to get, but also ideas about how to push the anger into an anarchist direction. Was to tired to make a contribution (I’m always tired atm, v frustrating)
> 
> it was mentioned that it was being recorded. Looking forward to re-listening


Did anyone turn up waving unreadable JPGs around, or were THE NEXT GENERATION OF UNRULY YOUTH not feeling very forceful that day?


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> THERE AREN'T ANY. There are some anarchists/socialists/communist (many more of the later two than the former) who think this is a horrendously fucked up situation where there are no clearly easy or good decisions to be made (unless you're a long way away from Ukraine) and some of the compromises made are better than some of the alternatives. And given what's been happening in Russian occupied areas I think their case is much improved rather than weakened tbh.


Sounds like a roundabout way of supporting NATO to me.

Has there been any recognition of the role of NATOs slow motion preparation of this war over the last 30 years?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Sounds like a roundabout way of supporting NATO to me.
> 
> Has there been any recognition of the role of NATOs slow motion preparation of this war over the last 30 years?


If nato had been preparing for this war over the last 30 months let alone 30 years I'd have expected them to have materiel pre-positioned, wouldn't you?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> The comparison doesn’t make sense from the pov of organising an annual event though, the UFFC march being annually held on the same Saturday in October for years, vs protests in response to a killing which happened a couple of weeks beforehand.


Yes and no, I suppose - I'm aware there are flaws in the comparison, which is why I hedged it with disclaimers, but from a punter's POV I'm not sure how much difference it makes, if I was in London that day (which I wasn't, so people can feel free to ignore my opinion on those grounds if they'd like) I'm not sure whether I'd want to prioritise the bookfair over the Chris Kaba thing. Or possibly one might be able to arrange one's day to include both, but then the same could be said for the UFFC thing.
More generally - I totally agree that the timing of the Chris Kaba demo was out of the 2022 organisers' control and so it'd be snide and bad faith to have a dig at them for clashing with it, so I suppose the question is whether the old organisers would have been able to arrange their event so it didn't clash with the UFFC march or any other event of similar importance, or if the many different factors that go into organising a bookfair would've made that impossible as well, which'd make having a go at them over that similarly snide. I tend towards thinking that, but others could disagree.
Although possibly I was in the wrong to dig up old beef on this matter anyway, since bookfairs and bookfair threads are meant to be a place where we concentrate on what unites us and look forward to the future in a positive spirit, maybe?


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## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2022)

Is there any way we can get a mod to force RD2003 to go and stand outside this thread with the ICC?


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If nato had been preparing for this war over the last 30 months let alone 30 years I'd have expected them to have materiel pre-positioned, wouldn't you?


Not necessarily. But it isn't as if there has been no direct intervention in Ukraine by key NATO members since at least 2014. 

If pushing NATO eastwards while knowing full well the likely reaction from Russia isn't preparing for at least the possibility of war, then I don't know what is.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is there any way we can get a mod to force RD2003 to go and stand outside this thread with the ICC?


Yes, report the offending post and make the suggestion.


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is there any way we can get a mod to force RD2003 to go and stand outside this thread with the ICC?


Tell me what the ICC is and I'll consider it.


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, report the offending post and make the suggestion.


Yeah,might as well join the other grasses on here.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Not necessarily. But it isn't as if there has been no direct intervention in Ukraine by key NATO members since at least 2014.
> 
> If pushing NATO eastwards while knowing full well the likely reaction from Russia isn't preparing for at least the possibility of war, then I don't know what is.


You haven't read my posts on this subject or you're just a patronising cunt. Or maybe - and this is the view I lean towards - you're both


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Yeah,might as well join the other grasses on here.


I haven't 'grassed' anyone on this thread


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You haven't read my posts on this thread or you're just a patronising cunt. Or maybe - and this is the view I lean towards - you're both


I do admit to not reading your posts on this thread. Other than those addressing me.


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I haven't 'grassed' anyone on this thread


Never said you had.


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## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

When someone is in favour of an increase in benefits do you say that means they completely support the State? Or if you are pleased the cops arrest a murderer then you think that makes you a full-on supporter of the police? Or are there sometimes some complexities and compromises between being pro and anti something on occasion? Facile examples I know, but it seems you just have 2 opposed settings dependent on a detached position that doesn't take into account complexity or reality at all. Same as others who then also look for information to justify their position: Ukrainian fascists, NATO started it, Russia's history made them do it, etc.

RD2003 I suspect you think you're somehow free and unbound to any ideological position, but to me you seem the most ideologically rigid and unreflective poster on this issue.


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## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> When someone is in favour of an increase in benefits do you say that means they completely support the State? Or if you are pleased the cops arrest a murderer then you think that makes you a full-on supporter of the police? Or are there sometimes some complexities and compromises between being pro and anti something on occasion? Facile examples I know, but it seems you just have 2 opposed settings dependent on a detached position that doesn't take into account complexity or reality at all. Same as others who then also look for information to justify their position: Ukrainian fascists, NATO started it, Russia's history made them do it, etc.
> 
> RD2003 I suspect you think you're somehow free and unbound to any ideological position, but to me you seem the most ideologically rigid and unreflective poster on this issue.


I do take reality into account, and the reality is that this war, disastrous for all concerned, above all the helpless civilians, could so easily have been avoided.

What really is rigid and unreflective is to act as if this war was a given, and to see an answer (or part of the answer) as lying with those whose policies did so much to set it in motion in the first place (yes, Russia bears ultimate responsibility by invading, but they knew how Russia, especially with the current regime, was bound to react eventually. Not that they will have cared. NATO expansion means jobs for the boys (and girls), and the arms manufacturers are quids in yet again.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If nato had been preparing for this war over the last 30 months let alone 30 years I'd have expected them to have materiel pre-positioned, wouldn't you?


The reviews could be better 🫤


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is there any way we can get a mod to force RD2003 to go and stand outside this thread with the ICC?


What have you got against the Buns? 😥


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## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> What have you got against the Buns? 😥


Think that one went over my head, is this about 

or something else entirely?


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## charlie mowbray (Sep 18, 2022)

International Communist Current=currant buns (oh, how we laughed).


----------



## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I do take reality into account, and the reality is that this war, disastrous for all concerned, above all the helpless civilians, could so easily have been avoided.



'Easily' is doing a lot of work there (as they say) isn't it?


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Did anyone turn up waving unreadable JPGs around, or were THE NEXT GENERATION OF UNRULY YOUTH not feeling very forceful that day?



When I walked in there was someone with brightly coloured hair. ‘Here we go’ I thought, but when they turned around it was LM


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Bonkers for the talk to be refused I think, but par for the course it seems nowadays to turn things down.



Which of the workshops on the programme would you have sacrificed so the CWO could have had a talk?

A lot of people seem to assume that there is infinite time/space/resources at events like these, whereas the reality is those things are often very limited and so not everybody who wants space can always be included.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> 'Easily' is doing a lot of work there (as they say) isn't it?


So is into account


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## LDC (Sep 18, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Which of the workshops on the programme would you have sacrificed so the ICO could have had a talk?
> 
> A lot of people seem to assume that there is infinite time/space/resources at events like these, whereas the reality is those things are often very limited and so not everybody who wants space can always be included.



Yeah I have said before I think it's OK and needed to sometimes refuse talks and stalls due to a lack of space and having to prioritise. From what people said though they weren't refused on space grounds, but content grounds? If it turns out they applied too late and missed the boat then fine. I still think not having a meeting on Ukraine is kind of ridiculous, and tbh I can see at least 3 meetings I think would be of a lower priority if it came to me having any input. The poetry one could fuck off for a start.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah I have said before I think it's OK and needed to sometimes refuse talks and stalls due to a lack of space and having to prioritise. From what people said though they weren't refused on space grounds, but content grounds? I still think not having a meeting on Ukraine is kind of ridiculous, and tbh I can see at least 3 meetings I think would be of a lower priority if it came to me having any input.


There are for me two things here, a question of space and a question of time, and if other people nipped in before anything about Ukraine was submitted then tbh it'd be tardiness that prevented anything on the subject being raised. Should the organisers wait for everyone to apply for a meeting and then prioritise? For me first come first served seems a reasonable way to do it and I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised, nor would I hold it against the organisers, if that's the route they chose


----------



## smokedout (Sep 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah I have said before I think it's OK and needed to sometimes refuse talks and stalls due to a lack of space and having to prioritise. From what people said though they weren't refused on space grounds, but content grounds? If it turns out they applied too late and missed the boat then fine. I still think not having a meeting on Ukraine is kind of ridiculous, and tbh I can see at least 3 meetings I think would be of a lower priority if it came to me having any input. The poetry one could fuck off for a start.



The poetry happened in the passage outside Freedom where it was absolutely packed with people drinking, it wasn't part of the main workshop schedule.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2022)

I don't disagree with you about Ukraine necessarily by the way LDC but it occurs to me that it should ideally be hosted by Ukranian anarchists not the UK branch of the ICC (who I think is who we're actually talking about because I'm pretty sure it was them outside) and I suspect most Ukranian anarchists are quite busy.


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## Wilf (Sep 18, 2022)

smokedout said:


> The poetry happened in the passage outside Freedom where it was absolutely packed with people drinking, it wasn't part of the main workshop schedule.


If the organisers wanted some feedback, I'd suggest they need a single venue with enough capacity to run up to 4 parallel meeting streams, or at least a smaller venue with the possibility of somewhere close to add on if more capacity was needed.  That would have been pretty much self funding as groups pay for a room I imagine.  I know that meetings have been in other sites than the main bookfair before but I really felt it, having mobility problems, trying to get up to Whitechapel Gallery.  I say all that having organised things like the Projectile festival in the past, so very much aware of the practicalities and competing demands.

But this isn't just about practicalities and organisational issues.  If the organisers want to do something as significant as refusing longstanding groups from having a stall or meeting, it's partly about common decency - just drop them a line explaining the situation.  I don't pretend that would be the end of the matter, of course, there'd be plenty of fallout.  But just refusing to reply is even more destructive and just adds another layer on top of a movement that is falling apart.  And what a time to fall apart.   

(sorry smokedout that wasn't aimed at you, I'm assuming you were not an organiser, just latching onto your post)


----------



## smokedout (Sep 18, 2022)

Wilf said:


> If the organisers want to do something as significant as refusing longstanding groups from having a stall or meeting, it's partly about common decency - just drop them a line explaining the situation.  I don't pretend that would be the end of the matter, of course, there'd be plenty of fallout.  But just refusing to reply is even more destructive and just adds another layer on top of a movement that is falling apart.  And what a time to fall apart.


Do we know that's what happened, I thought someone had seen an email responding to the ICC?   There seems to be a lot of speculation going on and a real eagerness to throw out accusations of censorship without any real foundation.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I don't disagree with you about Ukraine necessarily by the way LDC but it occurs to me that it should ideally be hosted by Ukranian anarchists not the UK branch of the ICC (who I think is who we're actually talking about because I'm pretty sure it was them outside) and I suspect most Ukranian anarchists are quite busy.


Not a huge deal but we are talking about the CWO,who had a stall inside. Them and the ICC have virtually identical politics, but the ICC have a history of being a bit mental and calling people and orgs parasites. I think they have got better recently.

There is a more important point about space being finite, which is true, but there is more space available at Bishopsgate afaik because I have donated blood there in a large hall upstairs iirc. Also it was a multi-site event so it would have been theoretically possible to find somewhere else in the area. Of course there may not have been budget or people/capacity to do that.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Not a huge deal but we are talking about the CWO,who had a stall inside. Them and the ICC have virtually identical politics, but the ICC have a history of being a bit mental and calling people and orgs parasites. I think they have got better recently.
> 
> There is a more important point about space being finite, which is true, but there is more space available at Bishopsgate afaik because I have donated blood there in a large hall upstairs iirc. Also it was a multi-site event so it would have been theoretically possible to find somewhere else in the area. Of course there may not have been budget or people/capacity to do that.



If the CWO had a stall inside then why were they outside handing out leaflets and showing people emails that they'd been banned?  I'm pretty sure it was ICC, I wish I'd taken a leaflet now so I could check.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

smokedout said:


> If the CWO had a stall inside then why were they outside handing out leaflets and showing people emails that they'd been banned?  I'm pretty sure it was ICC, I wish I'd taken a leaflet now so I could check.


I’m only going on what people have said on this thread about CWO members saying that a meeting had been turned down. And seeing the CWO stand inside.

The ICC were outside but I didn’t talk to them. They have been excluded from having a stall at the bookfair for many years including during the former organisers’ time.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

smokedout said:


> If the CWO had a stall inside then why were they outside handing out leaflets and showing people emails that they'd been banned?  I'm pretty sure it was ICC, I wish I'd taken a leaflet now so I could check.


The CWO had a stall inside. The ICC were outside. The I-Spy Book of Left Communists was available on the day for anyone getting confused.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

smokedout also I agree with you that a meeting on the war would be more useful if it included Ukrainian anarchists fwiw.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2022)

nastyned said:


> The CWO had a stall inside. The ICC were outside. The I-Spy Book of Left Communists was available on the day for anyone getting confused.


I am slightly filled with self-loathing that I know all this stuff, so it is probably healthier to be confused about it all.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am slightly filled with self-loathing that I know all this stuff, so it is probably healthier to be confused about it all.


Think of the points you get if you spot someone from the PCInt though!


----------



## LDC (Sep 19, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I don't disagree with you about Ukraine necessarily by the way LDC but it occurs to me that it should ideally be hosted by Ukranian anarchists not the UK branch of the ICC (who I think is who we're actually talking about because I'm pretty sure it was them outside) and I suspect most Ukranian anarchists are quite busy.



Even though I like the members I've met and they generally have pretty sound politics, I'd be pretty wary of booking a no-war talk by the CWO (who are ICT rather than the ICC aren't they?) as well tbh, although I'd like to think that sorting out a discussion on Ukraine, anarchists, and the war could have been possible, a panel debate with Zoom guests? Various POVs presented and then discussed? Either way given the impact and importance of the war something definitely should have been on the program imo, although I do know sorting that stuff out when it's not been offered is harder than it might seem. But I think if you take on things like the Bookfair then you do have some responsibility to try and get these things on the program rather than just leave it totally open to what gets offered - especially if you then filter things out that do get offered.

I suspect if the CWO meeting had happened it might have turned into a discussion on Ukraine anyway.

Honestly though all this (and reports I've heard from the event) just makes me relieved I don't bother going anymore, and why I feel a huge gulf between me and that often pretty fucked up and depressing scene nowadays.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2022)

looking forward to next years bookfair


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2022)

If DEAD QUEEN has taught us anything, it's that any successful event needs big queue energy


----------



## A380 (Sep 19, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> looking forward to next years bookfair


I've booked a stall...


----------



## nastyned (Sep 19, 2022)

LDC said:


> Even though I like the members I've met and they generally have pretty sound politics, I'd be pretty wary of booking a no-war talk by the CWO (who are ICT rather than the ICC aren't they?) as well tbh, although I'd like to think that sorting out a discussion on Ukraine, anarchists, and the war could have been possible, a panel debate with Zoom guests? Various POVs presented and then discussed? Either way given the impact and importance of the war something definitely should have been on the program imo, although I do know sorting that stuff out when it's not been offered is harder than it might seem. But I think if you take on things like the Bookfair then you do have some responsibility to try and get these things on the program rather than just leave it totally open to what gets offered - especially if you then filter things out that do get offered.
> 
> I suspect if the CWO meeting had happened it might have turned into a discussion on Ukraine anyway.
> 
> Honestly though all this (and reports I've heard from the event) just makes me relieved I don't bother going anymore, and why I feel a huge gulf between me and that often pretty fucked up and depressing scene nowadays.


Hmmm...so you've gone from not believing the CWO weren't allowed to have a 'No War But The Class War' talk to thinking actually that's probably a good idea. I will be forwarding this evidence of your centrist vacillation to the CWO AND the ICC who I am sure will respond appropriately.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 19, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Just when you thught the world couldn't get any more absurd, we seem to now have the spectacle of anarcho-communists cheering on the very same people who'd kill them when the day comes.


I guess for them they are more concerned about the people who are trying to kill them today.


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## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2022)

nastyned said:


> Hmmm...so you've gone from not believing the CWO weren't allowed to have a 'No War But The Class War' talk to thinking actually that's probably a good idea. I will be forwarding this evidence of your centrist vacillation to the CWO AND the ICC who I am sure will respond appropriately.


Don't start misrepresenting LDCs position, please


----------



## nastyned (Sep 19, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Don't start misrepresenting LDCs position, please


I'm half way through the 10,000 word essay already.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 19, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Do we know that's what happened, I thought someone had seen an email responding to the ICC?   There seems to be a lot of speculation going on and a real eagerness to throw out accusations of censorship without any real foundation.


It wasn't the ICC, it was the CWO, pay attention!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 19, 2022)

I spoke to a mate yesterday who informed me that AK Press were going to attend but had some logistical problems at their end so didn’t make it.

I think we’re all agreed here that a meeting on Ukraine would have been worthwhile.  The fact that an ultra-left sect did not get a meeting could have been for a whole bunch of reasons, including capacity.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 19, 2022)

Except it wasn't.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 19, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I spoke to a mate yesterday who informed me that AK Press were going to attend but had some logistical problems at their end so didn’t make it.


Aye, that’s a common theme at AK Press these days. I wish them well.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 19, 2022)

I hear there is to be a new editor at Freedom - was told name (of editor and their partner) but have forgotten - sounded quite positive - anyone know more?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I hear there is to be a new editor at Freedom - was told name (of editor and their partner) but have forgotten - sounded quite positive - anyone know more?


Lisa and Martin.  

😐


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 19, 2022)

The issue of Freedom that came out for the Bookfair is pretty good. Pieces by an RMT rep, something on lessons learned from the Common House meeting space, Ian Bone's memories of 80s Hackney, Advisory Service for Squatters...


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I hear there is to be a new editor at Freedom - was told name (of editor and their partner) but have forgotten - sounded quite positive - anyone know more?


Do you mean partner as in relationship ?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 19, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The issue of Freedom that came out for the Bookfair is pretty good. Pieces by an RMT rep, something on lessons learned from the Common House meeting space, Ian Bone's memories of 80s Hackney, Advisory Service for Squatters...


I’ve not read Freedom in years, the odd article aside. Long before its retreat from hard copy.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 19, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve not read Freedom in years, the odd article aside. Long before its retreat from hard copy.


Well I wasn't around in the glory days of the 1880s, Danny...


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 19, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well I wasn't around in the glory days of the 1880s, Danny...


This was all fields back then.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 19, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Do you mean partner as in relationship ?


yes, the new female editor's male partner was involved with Anonymous in its earliest incarnation IIRC, served time for it, and is an entertaining writer, so i have been told.

ETA Ive google deduced it




			https://twitter.com/GayFrogs15
		











						Barrett Brown - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> yes, the new female editor's male partner was involved with Anonymous in its earliest incarnation IIRC, served time for it, and is an entertaining writer, so i have been told


Oh, Barrett Brown, sounds like? Oh, and Sylvia Mann:


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 19, 2022)

OK. I don’t know them.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

Don't know anything about Mann, but BB previously appeared on these boards (as a subject of conversation, not a poster afaik) in a discussion about a certain banner being held at a Kill the Bill protest. Sounds like the liberals haven't managed to get him deported yet?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Don't know anything about Mann, but BB previously appeared on these boards (as a subject of conversation, not a poster afaik) in a discussion about a certain banner being held at a Kill the Bill protest. Sounds like the liberals haven't managed to get him deported yet?


That story Pickman's model about Hugh Cornwall’s laundry bag is a belter


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That story Pickman's model about Hugh Cornwall’s laundry bag is a belter


Yes, I had enjoyed being reminded of that - classic unpredictable derail, 10/10.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 19, 2022)

Yes Sylvia is gradually taking over from Zosia (though the latter is going to be around for a wee while yet - we've actually managed the rare trick of not just throwing some poor sod in at the deep end for once so she'll have a couple old editors to ask why people are complaining about us _this_ time). The editorial group's actually a group atm which is nice.

Bookfair went pretty well as far as Freedom goes, partly because AK and PM weren't able to make it I expect (we ended up carrying a bunch of AK stock on our stall so they weren't completely absent). The zine fair and after-drinks in Angel Alley were particularly successful by all accounts, I wasn't there in the day as I was on stalls/at Bishopsgate but got there after closing and had never seen the place so packed.


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 19, 2022)

Ok so did anyone buy any anarchist books?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 19, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok so did anyone buy any anarchist books?



Lock the thread! 

Great to see @Fozzie Bear @cesare @the button x


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 19, 2022)

I'm selling rather than buying usually, but I did make an exception for the always beautiful (and occasionally baffling) ...


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yes and no, I suppose - I'm aware there are flaws in the comparison, which is why I hedged it with disclaimers, but from a punter's POV I'm not sure how much difference it makes, if I was in London that day (which I wasn't, so people can feel free to ignore my opinion on those grounds if they'd like) I'm not sure whether I'd want to prioritise the bookfair over the Chris Kaba thing. Or possibly one might be able to arrange one's day to include both, but then the same could be said for the UFFC thing.
> More generally - I totally agree that the timing of the Chris Kaba demo was out of the 2022 organisers' control and so it'd be snide and bad faith to have a dig at them for clashing with it, so I suppose the question is whether the old organisers would have been able to arrange their event so it didn't clash with the UFFC march or any other event of similar importance, or if the many different factors that go into organising a bookfair would've made that impossible as well, which'd make having a go at them over that similarly snide. I tend towards thinking that, but others could disagree.
> Although possibly I was in the wrong to dig up old beef on this matter anyway, since bookfairs and bookfair threads are meant to be a place where we concentrate on what unites us and look forward to the future in a positive spirit, maybe?


I know a few people who did both. Logistically pretty easy, demo was 12-2pm at new scotland yard , 15 mins cycle from there to bishopsgate or about half an hour by public transport.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The issue of Freedom that came out for the Bookfair is pretty good. Pieces by an RMT rep, something on lessons learned from the Common House meeting space, Ian Bone's memories of 80s Hackney, Advisory Service for Squatters...


Is that a new issue, not the summer-autumn one?


Rob Ray said:


> I'm selling rather than buying usually, but I did make an exception for the always beautiful (and occasionally baffling) ...
> 
> View attachment 343540


Who would've thought that TCA would end up being one of the most enduring and stable institutions?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

Anyway, to my mind there's only one person who's qualified to host a discussion on Ukraine at the London anarchist bookfair, and that's former Scotland and Leeds United frontman Arthur Graham.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is that a new issue, not the summer-autumn one?


Yes it‘s ”vol 82:2 2022-23” apparently.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 19, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok so did anyone buy any anarchist books?


Yes, at least one and possibly two! Bought Brian Morris' A Defence of Anarchist Communism and Make Rojava Green Again.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> Lock the thread!
> 
> Great to see @Fozzie Bear @cesare @the button x


Great to see you too and Fozzie Bear  X X


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is that a new issue, not the summer-autumn one?


New - thanks for reminding me I'd not put it up on the shop page:









						Freedom Winter 2022-23
					

In this issue The new wave of strikes 100 years of the International Workers Association Biting back against “dog-eat-dog” capitalism Analysing the economic storm On the need to rebuild…




					freedompress.org.uk


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm selling rather than buying usually, but I did make an exception for the always beautiful (and occasionally baffling) ...
> 
> View attachment 343540



I'd never heard of these two. I like the cut of their jib from reading this.









						Rylands BlogThe Papers of Peter Good: An Accrual to the Dave Cunliffe Archive
					

Bruce Wilkinson writes: Dave Cunliffe spent much of the early 1970s in Blackburn’s alternative bookshop Amamus. Increasingly a magnet for much of the town’s underground activity it was here that he…




					rylandscollections.com


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 19, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> I'd never heard of these two. I like the cut of their jib from reading this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Peter's a lovely guy, you won't find a truer advocate of bookfairs and the art of pamphleteering.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Ok so did anyone buy any anarchist books?


No.


----------



## This Zosia Brom (Sep 19, 2022)

Hi Everyone!

Earlier this year, I reached my 40s, AKA, as I believe, the legal age of getting a U75 account, so here I am.

I decided to spare you the bother of endless speculation and will reply to some of the questions I see here.

1. CWO meeting was rejected due to us wanting to get Ukrainian (and also Georgian, Kazakh, Finnish, Polish,  Baltic countries and Russian anarchists, as well as some groups representing indigenous communities of the Russian Federation) for a wider discussion about Russian colonialism. This, however, fell through for two reasons. Firstly, there wasn’t sufficient time to organise it. As someone points out above in this thread, the Ukrainians are really busy, and so are many other anarchist groups in this part of the world right now. We managed to book extra venues only about 3 weeks before the bookfair, there were about a million other things to do by then. Plus given how big this subject is, we realised no way we could fit it in 90 mins or two hours. It was then decided that this talk will be an extra to be held online after the bookfair. This is planned for sometime in October/November and will likely be a series of talks.
2. CWO was not banned, they had a stall inside, also they were informed why their workshop got rejected (us wanting to give space to Ukrainians etc). They seemed relatively fine with it, based on their reply.
3. ICC emailed us on 30th August, which was a bit over two weeks before the bookfair and about a month after we closed stall bookings. They asked if they could have a stall or a meeting space. We informed them that we are absolutely packed, they never got back to us after this. I’m not sure we would give them either of the things they wanted, I guess this may be something our collective would have to discuss next year, if ICC manages to get in touch with us in time.
4. Sarah Jane Baker did not have a stall because she did not request one.
5. The ACG did receive a reply to their stall request, I guess Charlie Mowbray here ("the Enforcer" 🤣🤣🤣) can show it to you. The bookfair collective is willing to sort out the issues we have with the ACG, but we are also not too inclined to bring our conflcts online, tbh.
6. Yes, I also think it would be better to have this bookfair in one venue. However, we got what we could on, basically, no budget. While initially, Bishopsgate Institute offered us the whole building, they later withdrew this offer as they needed the space for some other event. So we went on a mission to find more venues as close as possible, and that is what we got. I think convincing some of the better East London non-anarchist spaces to run an anarchist event was pretty cool, but I guess this may be just me.
7. If anyone on this forum thinks we could do better, then the best way of going about it would be to email us with your suggestions or offer of help, rather than be clever online. You are also welcome to organise your own bookfair if you want. We will probably promote it if you do.
8. Having an event across several venues is ofc an accessibility issue by itself. We released an accessibility statement stating that and asking anyone who thinks they will struggle to move between the venues we are using to get in touch. We also announced it on social media several times, and we worked with everyone who did get in touch to make their day as easy as we could.
9. No, the bookfair has nothing to do with this stupid “message to London anarchists” that made rounds on social media and various chat groups. JFC.
10. Yes, after 5 years, I have resigned as Freedom editor, and Sylvia Mann will be taking over from me. I would encourage you to not immediately jump to a discussion on some woman's partner, in the year of lord 2022 it does sound a bit outdated. Also, I am staying in the editorial collective and intend to spend more time writing rather than editing the texts of others. You will probably hate this, tbh.

As a general note. I will now promptly lose the password to this account, and I guess next time I will be looking at U75 would be about a month before the next bookfair. In a weird twisted masochistic way, this forum is pretty fascinating, but also should not be taken in large doses. Pre and post bookfair sessions are sufficient for me. But you do you and enjoy yourself!


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

Where did This Zosia Brom  post go. I read that!


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 19, 2022)

cesare said:


> Where did This Zosia Brom  post go. I read that!



Me too. And if it was true and accurate then it was a fine post. I wouldn't see any reason to delete it.


----------



## This Zosia Brom (Sep 19, 2022)

I'm sorry, I am new to this forum so I do not know how it was visible and it is not now.  I can see this post, but it also says it is awaiting moderation.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

This Zosia Brom said:


> I'm sorry, I am new to this forum so I do not know how it was visible and it is not now.  I can see this post, but it also says it is awaiting moderation.


I forgot about that, yeah it'll be in limbo for a bit then reappear I guess.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 19, 2022)

cesare said:


> No.


Strangely enough, I bought one, purely with the intention of disliking it on the train home - David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs.  From what I've seen it's patronising shite and doesn't acknowledge the managerial/control function of all the 'quality' jobs and the rest.  Needless to say, I fell asleep on the train and have a book I will now never read.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 19, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Strangely enough, I bought one, purely with the intention of disliking it on the train home - David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs.  From what I've seen it's patronising shite and doesn't acknowledge the managerial/control function of all the 'quality' jobs and the rest.  Needless to say, I fell asleep on the train and have a book I will now never read.


It was a viral blog post that got over stretched for a book deal. Cant begrudge him it.


----------



## kenny g (Sep 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Peter's a lovely guy, you won't find a truer advocate of bookfairs and the art of pamphleteering.


Didn't know the background but a better egg I have never met.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Strangely enough, I bought one, purely with the intention of disliking it on the train home - David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs.  From what I've seen it's patronising shite and doesn't acknowledge the managerial/control function of all the 'quality' jobs and the rest.  Needless to say, I fell asleep on the
> 
> train and have a book I will now never read.


I didn't realise you were going, would have been good to meet you irl.

I might have bought a copy of charlie mowbray new book , but he explained they hadn't yet been delivered.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2022)

I'm slightly perturbed no one's reported on the PDF situation 🧐


----------



## Wilf (Sep 19, 2022)

cesare said:


> I didn't realise you were going, would have been good to meet you irl.
> 
> I might have bought a copy of charlie mowbray new book , but he explained they hadn't yet been delivered.


And yous!  In fact I was proper billy no mates and only met one person I knew.  He was a former zealous SWP full timer and I commented rather drily that his politics seems to have 'shifted' a bit.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 19, 2022)

Wilf said:


> And yous!  In fact I was proper billy no mates and only met one person I knew.  He was a former zealous SWP full timer and I commented rather drily that his politics seems to have 'shifted' a bit.


What did they say to that? The SWP full timers I've met have all seemed like right nutters.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

Wilf said:


> And yous!  In fact I was proper billy no mates and only met one person I knew.  He was a former zealous SWP full timer and I commented rather drily that his politics seems to have 'shifted' a bit.


It's the first time I've been since that transphobe travesty in 2017, that was horrible.

But there's now no tradition for where everyone meets now post-covid because (some people have said) spoons  attitude during covid  so avoid. Fair (swidt) enough.

So if any people go in future might be good to establish meeting place.

I really do like the Bishopsgate Institute, much better than Queen Mary. I particularly liked their encouragement and information about their FREE and no membership etc  required beautiful library and archive service.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 19, 2022)

This Zosia Brom said:


> I'm sorry, I am new to this forum so I do not know how it was visible and it is not now.  I can see this post, but it also says it is awaiting moderation.


The Zosia Brom ? Oh man you leave the frogs standing.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

We've been to a Radical Bookfair at the Bishopsgate Institute in the past and that was ace!


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Me too. And if it was true and accurate then it was a fine post. I wouldn't see any reason to delete it.


This is a great way to get people intrigued about what the post says, will I be able to buy a PDF of the mystery post at the next bookfair?


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> This is a great way to get people intrigued about what the post says, will I be able to buy a PDF of the mystery post at the next bookfair?


It'll pass moderation then everyone can see it. 

I'm not sure that everyone would describe it as a fine post tbh, but _shrug_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> This is a great way to get people intrigued about what the post says, will I be able to buy a PDF of the mystery post at the next bookfair?



Funny quip about old people
Obligatory comment about helicopter posting by Bookfair organisers
Acid remark presumably misinterpreting somebody mentioning they had met a person and another person for something else
Barely enough to fit on a funny purple ink single-sider 🤷


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2022)

I came early to the bishopsgate event. had a look around. A bit dusty, not much rooted in action and nothing addressing the issues we face today, It was a shame the workshops and meetings were elsewhere, the energy was dissipated. Noting that there was no meetings or discussion about Ukraine I couldn't be arsed to walk over. I had no desire to get pissed and so went home. It all seemed completely irrelevant.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 19, 2022)

Talks included Don't Pay, the new strike wave, Netpol on fighting the government's crackdown on civil rights, workplace organising talks, migrant solidarity and Earth First on climate direct action - not sure I'd call any of that particularly irrelevant. Also as someone who spent a fair bit of time and effort lugging books around on the day we did try to keep them dust free, many apologies if they weren't up to your exacting standards.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2022)

Is anyone else hoping that the appearance of a member called This Zosia Brom will summon a poster called That Zosia Brom, somewhat after the fashion Thing 1 and Thing 2 from the Cat in the Hat, or is that just me?


----------



## nastyned (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is anyone else hoping that the appearance of a member called This Zosia Brom will summon a poster called That Zosia Brom, somewhat after the fashion Thing 1 and Thing 2 from the Cat in the Hat, or is that just me?


Someone also asked if it was The Zosia Brom so it sounds like there's at least three.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is anyone else hoping that the appearance of a member called This Zosia Brom will summon a poster called That Zosia Brom, somewhat after the fashion Thing 1 and Thing 2 from the Cat in the Hat, or is that just me?


This Zosia Brom will have to fight That Zosia Brom, in a battle to the end, and as one lies defeated upon the ground, the other will lean in to salute their valour, and as they embrace lightning will strike them both and meld them together into The Zosia Brom.

Because there can only be one ⚔️


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Talks included Don't Pay, the new strike wave, Netpol on fighting the government's crackdown on civil rights, workplace organising talks, migrant solidarity and Earth First on climate direct action - not sure I'd call any of that particularly irrelevant. Also as someone who spent a fair bit of time and effort lugging books around on the day we did try to keep them dust free, many apologies if they weren't up to your exacting standards.


Thanks for the apology but you missed the mark by a long way. Try harder.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 19, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Try harder.


You first.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2022)

Who could have predicted such a charged and flirtatious twist to the thread


----------



## petee (Sep 20, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> you leave the frogs standing.



eh?


----------



## nastyned (Sep 20, 2022)

Has the death match of Zosia Broms happened yet?


----------



## A380 (Sep 20, 2022)

nastyned said:


> Has the death match of Zosia Broms happened yet?



Two Broms enter.
One Broms leaves.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

I keep hoping this will start to make sense.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 20, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I came early to the bishopsgate event. had a look around. A bit dusty, not much rooted in action and nothing addressing the issues we face today, It was a shame the workshops and meetings were elsewhere, the energy was dissipated. Noting that there was no meetings or discussion about Ukraine I couldn't be arsed to walk over. I had no desire to get pissed and so went home. It all seemed completely irrelevant.


I've been critical of how we got from the old bookfair to now and I'd tend to agree about the diminishing links to real world struggles.  Having said that I think there was some attempt to relate to things like the cost of living horrors and I'd generally say that the new organisers took this on and it became their thing.  It's also hard graft and you do put yourself in the firing line if you organise something like the bookfair, so there's a bit of slack to be cut.  I'm probably all over the place then.  The much more important point is that the increasing irrelevance to working class lives and struggle is one of the movement, not so much this bookfair.  There's stuff going on like the Angry Workers and the rest and I was at the 'Martin and Lisa' meeting, but nobody could see contemporary anarchism in this country/countries as being relevant to where we are at.  A point that could also be made about the wider left.


----------



## inva (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I keep hoping this will start to make sense.


Excitement about new poster --> turns weird --> new poster never posts again 👍


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 20, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I've been critical of how we got from the old bookfair to now and I'd tend to agree about the diminishing links to real world struggles.  Having said that I think there was some attempt to relate to things like the cost of living horrors and I'd generally say that the new organisers took this on and it became their thing.  It's also hard graft and you do put yourself in the firing line if you organise something like the bookfair, so there's a bit of slack to be cut.  I'm probably all over the place then.  The much more important point is that the increasing irrelevance to working class lives and struggle is one of the movement, not so much this bookfair.  There's stuff going on like the Angry Workers and the rest and I was at the 'Martin and Lisa' meeting, but nobody could see contemporary anarchism in this country/countries as being relevant to where we are at.  A point that could also be made about the wider left.


What was the Martin and Lisa thing like?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

Wilf said:


> A point that could also be made about the wider left.


Aye. I’ll talk about Glasgow, but I’m sure it’s the same everywhere. One of the things you notice is that every time there’s something on - demo in George Square, picket of the Home Office in Brand Street, A to B march, and so on - it’s the same faces, the same dwindling organisations. The same banners. It’s all seasoned hacks. No muggles.  No outside interest. 

For a while I thought the YCL in Glasgow was huge by comparison. Then I realised we were probably seeing pretty much the whole of its UK membership each time they turn up. (Well, I realised it with the help of another poster on this thread). 

These events are just speaking to the same people.  We turn up. We note how few organisation A has put on the street this time. We wander over to activist B and have a chat.  The general public are oblivious. The working class is unaffected.

There is not a working class culture any more of mass May Day picnics, discussing politics in the park.  But we’re still using the methods of yesteryear.  Even online.  In fact, I don’t think taking our presence online has broadened our reach at all. It has  improved our ability to communicate with each other, but actually we’ve thrown ourselves into a virtual oubliette, and the outside world has no idea we’re in it or that it even exists.



There are breakthrough moments. The anti immigration raids solidarity.  Kenmure Street. The new wave of strikes, for which general solidarity seems pretty good.  In a small way, the Bookfair I helped organise was actually pretty good at bringing in new faces.  But it was hardly a mass movement. 

The things that have most impact are the quieter things we tend to get involved in. Individual solidarity work to assist a particular neighbour.  Anti library closure campaigning.  Networking in one’s community.  Community mutual aid WhatsApp groups.  Dealing with anti social behaviour.  But these don’t tend to see the light of day.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Aye. I’ll talk about Glasgow, but I’m sure it’s the same everywhere. One of the things you notice is that every time there’s something on - demo in George Square, picket of the Home Office in Brand Street, A to B march, and so on - it’s the same faces, the same dwindling organisations. The same banners. It’s all seasoned hacks. No muggles.  No outside interest.
> 
> For a while I thought the YCL in Glasgow was huge by comparison. Then I realised we were probably seeing pretty much the whole of its UK membership each time they turn up. (Well, I realised it with the help of another poster on this thread).
> 
> ...


I'm not all that active in stuff at the moment, but even from tootling along to various things in person and online, that's my experience/impression too.  I particularly agree with the point about not doing things in the old ways.  If the connection between people's everyday lives and the left is broken, turning up in the centre of town with red (or black) flags isn't always that useful. Equally, when you are working in a particular left/anarchist group and the question gets asked, 'we need to do something' and the answer comes back 'lets have a public meeting on the miners strike'... _why_? 'Our' history is important and something like the poll tax is a good example of how we can get rid of attacks on the working class (obvious links to cost of living today).  But assuming these are all levers to pull and pathways to bring people in... nope.  

In these circumstances the seeming failure of Enough is Enough to actually organise, take some risks, break the mould ... perhaps predictable, but really depressing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

Wilf said:


> If the connection between people's everyday lives and the left is broken, turning up in the centre of town with red (or black) flags isn't always that useful


Exactly.

I’m not interesting in “recruiting” people. I’m interested in working class communities regaining the self confidence necessary for self management.  At the moment, the message isn’t being heard by many.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I’m not interesting in “recruiting” people. I’m interested in working class communities regaining the self confidence necessary for self management.  At the moment, the message isn’t being heard by many.


One of the reasons that Don't Pay has been an interesting breakthrough.


----------



## belboid (Sep 20, 2022)

Did none of you go on BLM or Kill the Bill demos or meetings? They were nothing like being the same old faces and were full of young people.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I’m not interesting in “recruiting” people. I’m interested in working class communities regaining the self confidence necessary for self management.  At the moment, the message isn’t being heard by many.


Yeah, sloppy wording when I said 'bring people in'. I do think it's about community organising, though all too many groups still have a 'this is us, come over and join us' model.  That applies to the anti-austerity groups I've been involved in as well - 'open to all', but not active 'in'/part of working class communities.

Edit: and plenty of groups have quite exclusionary practices or at least very good ways of keeping people out. Not least by being boring as shit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

belboid said:


> Did none of you go on BLM or Kill the Bill demos or meetings? They were nothing like being the same old faces and were full of young people.


I agree the former were big, while in vogue, but Kill the Bill things here were tiny. Probably partly due to a perception that the legislation didn’t directly affect Scotland. (It didn’t, but the indirect effect was hard to communicate).

Also, I’d ague BLM as a phenomenon was very student-centred, didn’t really engage working class communities, and hasn’t broadened out to wider resistance.  Although its message was hugely important.  

But yes, I could have included that in my short list of breakthrough moments.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I agree the former were big, while in vogue, but Kill the Bill things here were tiny. Probably partly due to a perception that the legislation didn’t directly affect Scotland. (It didn’t, but the indirect effect was hard to communicate).


I think the absence of continuous or self sustaining working class organisation was also a factor. However you theorise the relationship between race and class, there have to be organisational links.  It wasn't so much that BLM has been and gone, it hasn't and will flare up again and, as you say, have all kinds of effects.  But the opportunity for links and enrichment through the whole working class movement were limited precisely because the working class movement is so small and ossified.  Not to say that there weren't useful developments in different places.


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## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I've been critical of how we got from the old bookfair to now and I'd tend to agree about the diminishing links to real world struggles.  Having said that I think there was some attempt to relate to things like the cost of living horrors and I'd generally say that the new organisers took this on and it became their thing.  It's also hard graft and you do put yourself in the firing line if you organise something like the bookfair, so there's a bit of slack to be cut.  I'm probably all over the place then.  The much more important point is that the increasing irrelevance to working class lives and struggle is one of the movement, not so much this bookfair.  There's stuff going on like the Angry Workers and the rest and I was at the 'Martin and Lisa' meeting, but nobody could see contemporary anarchism in this country/countries as being relevant to where we are at.  A point that could also be made about the wider left.


Your last sentence brought back memories of Cockers in defending why Workers Power weren't going anywhere, he'd always add on 'as is the wider left' as well.


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## charlie mowbray (Sep 20, 2022)

This:








						Fuck the Queen – here’s King Mob: autonomous London defies national obsession with dead lizard
					

On this most special day of the anarcho-calendar, we must say in unison: fuck the Queen.




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I think the absence of continuous or self sustaining working class organisation was also a factor. However you theorise the relationship between race and class, there have to be organisational links.  It wasn't so much that BLM has been and gone, it hasn't and will flare up again and, as you say, have all kinds of effects.  But the opportunity for links and enrichment through the whole working class movement were limited precisely because the working class movement is so small and ossified.  Not to say that there weren't useful developments in different places.


Yup.

An example I always return to is the 1926 general strike.  There existed then a working network of trades councils. That structure was adapted to help the coordination of news, food supplies, and much else.

Even when I was active in the anti poll tax movement in the late 80s, the trades councils (although much reduced from their status of the 1920s) were still an important resource.  Now, there is no such infrastructure.

There is nominally a trades council in Glasgow. But it’s sewn up by the mainstream unions, has no democratic input and is inaccessible by working class people, and in any case isn’t real. It exists in name only.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 20, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> What was the Martin and Lisa thing like?


It was okay and had about 20 there (not actually that great a turnout I suppose).  Martin - there are going to be riots when the full cost of living hits.  We need to get on board.  Well, we'll see, but I have an awful feeling there won't be riots, just flare ups of individual despair or at best small scale anger. Lisa's focus was on how she got Brexit right   and how UK anarchists don't understand working class lives.  Stuff I was generally on board with.

After that the discussion was around 'things we could do', which included a few random and tentative suggestions.  I do remember something about getting the land back, some stuff about leaflets (!), but I must admit I fell asleep.  That all sounds very dismissive, not intended to be, I'm just very dopey.  The tone of the meeting was a bit up and at 'em, positive and all about what anarchists/lib-communists could do, but equally a starting point of despair at the attacks taking place and the distance @ism has moved away from that battle.  More alert comrades my be able to offer a better account.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 20, 2022)

nastyned said:


> Has the death match of Zosia Broms happened yet?


I don't know, I'm still waiting for Just Books to send me my paper copy of ZB's post.  (The actual discussion that's started happening now is a good one, will try and contribute something to that when I have the time to concentrate properly.)


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup.
> 
> An example I always return to is the 1926 general strike.  There existed then a working network of trades councils. That structure was adapted to help the coordination of news, food supplies, and much else.
> 
> ...


I think that's what this campaign around the cost of living crisis is trying to address: Cost of Living Action

But it has come a bit late and been overshadowed by EIE.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup.
> 
> An example I always return to is the 1926 general strike.  There existed then a working network of trades councils. That structure was adapted to help the coordination of news, food supplies, and much else.
> 
> ...


Another example is the miners’ welfare clubs. In the 80s you could do the rounds of the miners’ welfare clubs.  But now there’s no mines and no welfare clubs.  The old miner’s welfare in Stirling (the one I knew best) is now a Waitrose car park.  That’s the perfect metaphor, really.


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## redsquirrel (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Aye. I’ll talk about Glasgow, but I’m sure it’s the same everywhere. One of the things you notice is that every time there’s something on - demo in George Square, picket of the Home Office in Brand Street, A to B march, and so on - it’s the same faces, the same dwindling organisations. The same banners. It’s all seasoned hacks. No muggles.  No outside interest.
> 
> For a while I thought the YCL in Glasgow was huge by comparison. Then I realised we were probably seeing pretty much the whole of its UK membership each time they turn up. (Well, I realised it with the help of another poster on this thread).
> 
> ...


Bang on Danny.

Kill the Bill here was pretty much the same old crowd. A few youngsters but plenty of the old guard.
(Which is not to disrespect the organisers or the anyone attending - the spontaneous march down Leeds roads closing them was great - but it concurs with the above)


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## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

This same conversation has been ongoing for 30 years though.  You can hardly say that in the days of crusties and Swampy and the road protest scene that anarchism was successfully embedding itself within the working class communities, or later manifestations like RTS and May Day - after which anarchism virtually disappeared from public view until the austerity period began, and even then only gained relevence for a couple for years mostly amongst students.  All that's really changed is a generational shift and the people who were accused of being middle class drop out lifestylists are now accusing the younger generations of being middle class pronoun obsessed snowflakes.  The truth is the organised working class was defeated in the 80s and has never recovered and anarchism has been in a counter-cultural ghetto ever since, with occassional fleeting moments in the sun but even those never really connected with much of the working class.

The situation is desperate and the relentless sniping doesn't help anyone, it only alienates people and causes resentment, not least because it often comes from people who are barely active themselves anymore.  And outside of the anarchist bubble we are all irrelevent - you can shout at the bookfair as much as you want because you're favourite old timer wasn't given centre billing but if you think Lisa Mckenzie or anyone else of that ilk resonates with the working class anymore than someone like Earth First or Palestine Action you're living in a dreamworld.  No-one knows, or cares, who the fuck any of these people are.

On the plus side, Don't Pay has resonated, as has some of the work of the independent unions, the bookfair has come back from what seemed like permanent death a few years ago and was as well attended as ever with lots of young people and new faces, we're entering a period of trade union action unlike any seen for decades, people are looking beyond XR and becoming more militant, there is a growing anger amongst the young about housing, shit jobs, the environment and the rise of the right.  A period of turmoil looks inevitable, and for anarchism to regain relevance it has to attract the next generation and support them through all the annoying and hopefully cool things they might do.  Because a bunch of inactive (mostly) old men whinging about how much better things were in their day just gets people's backs up as does the reluctance to understand the contemporary struggles faced by the young working class who are facing a far more insecure future than we ever did, and possibly know better than us how to resist that.


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## charlie mowbray (Sep 20, 2022)

That really is patronising and so wrong.


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## redsquirrel (Sep 20, 2022)

I'm not sure if that was directed at Danny's post or not smokedout?

But I do not think what Danny describes is just oldies complaining. The sort of collective class consciousness that was around even 20 years ago may have been very much weakened from the 45-75 period but to me it seems miles ahead of the present.

Take U75 for an example, 20 years ago most of the politics forum regulars - whether trots, tankies, anarchists or other - organised on the basis of class politics. Now that is a minority view. Or the Ukranian war thread where even the mention of class, of thinking from a materialist perspective, is viewed as some sort of incomprehensible alien language.

I would say that there has been a growth in support of "progressive politics" but cross class progressive politics is not, for me any road, any sort of solution.
TBH I hope I am being just a bit pessimistic after a shitty day at work and you're right, that we are going to see a re-birth and re-building of class politics


----------



## TopCat (Sep 20, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I've been critical of how we got from the old bookfair to now and I'd tend to agree about the diminishing links to real world struggles.  Having said that I think there was some attempt to relate to things like the cost of living horrors and I'd generally say that the new organisers took this on and it became their thing.  It's also hard graft and you do put yourself in the firing line if you organise something like the bookfair, so there's a bit of slack to be cut.  I'm probably all over the place then.  The much more important point is that the increasing irrelevance to working class lives and struggle is one of the movement, not so much this bookfair.  There's stuff going on like the Angry Workers and the rest and I was at the 'Martin and Lisa' meeting, but nobody could see contemporary anarchism in this country/countries as being relevant to where we are at.  A point that could also be made about the wider left.


The irrelevance of anarchism to our life today was perhaps the bigger issue for me, just epitomised by the reality of the bookfair. Yes they did a lot of work and well done etc. They ain't to blame.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not sure if that was directed at Danny's post or not smokedout?
> 
> But I do not think what Danny describes is just oldies complaining. The sort of collective class consciousness that was around even 20 years ago may have been very much weakened from the 45-75 period but to me it seems miles ahead of the present.
> 
> ...



No not aimed at Danny at all, I agree with a lot of what he said.  But I don't agree that things were much better 20 years ago despite the changing demographics on urban.  20 years ago much of the mainstream left was focussed on the Iraq War and war on terror whilst all the momentum built up by anarchists in the 90's was slowly diminishing with the movement shortly after going into terminal decline for several years. Meanwhile the Blair government was relentlessly attacking social security, housing, introducing ever more neoliberal reforms with barely a peep from the broad spectrum of the left including anarchists.  There was more resistance to the pointless SOCPA regulations that there was the introduction of workfare or foundation hospitals, and much of the chat on here was people bemoaning, exactly as they are now, on the failure of the left and anarchist lifestylers to engage with class politics.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> inactive (mostly) old men whinging about how much better things were in their day


Not what I’m doing.  I’ll leave aside the accusation of inactivity. That’s just throwing around shade, and not worth a response. 

As for the second part of the phrase, I was (briefly) outlining a structural analysis of working class organisation since the 1920s to today.  1926 was not “my day”, and actually I don’t think everything was better then. Far from it. However, things _were_ different.

Also, let me make it clear, I’m not “shouting at the London bookfair”.  I’ve never been to it , I’m never likely to go, I have no idea what it was like last weekend. I have no idea what it was like in “my day”. (Incidentally, my day includes now, thanks).

I added my comments here because the conversation had moved onto the subject of the broader left and the working class. (At least the bits of the conversation I understood had. I think I was contributing to the improvement of the thread, which had frankly got a bit weird).

Maybe we could discuss it on another thread, but I don’t think there’s any harm moving to the more general. It might help move away from the slightly odd discussion of Freedom’s outgoing editor.

My intention was not to moan, but to say that we need to analyse the landscape that we are faced with, and fit our action to that analysis, rather than look at what we’re already doing and come up with an analysis (or rather rationalisation) that works to reassure us that the collection of banners in a corner of George Square is really what we should be doing.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Not what I’m doing.  I’ll leave aside the accusation of inactivity. That’s just throwing around shade, and not worth a response.
> 
> As for the second part of the phrase, I was (briefly) outlining a structural analysis of working class organisation since the 1920s to today.  1926 was not “my day”, and actually I don’t think everything was better then. Far from it. However, things _were_ different.
> 
> ...



My comments weren't aimed at you Danny but at the broader thrust of this thread and the criticisms of the bookfair.  In fact I couldn't agree with your last paragraph more.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> My comments weren't aimed at you Danny but at the broader thrust of this thread and the criticisms of the bookfair.  In fact I couldn't agree with your last paragraph more.


You are hardly a spring chook yerself to be fair. This criticism of old men having had their day is just shit though. Enough of us old men have been critical friends of the book fair for decades. Given what happened with the demise of the old book fair it's reasonable to continue to have a critical eye on the new organisers. The lack of transparency regarding allocating space was a definite mis step. Having no discussion regarding the war, especially given the positions taken up by many attending just emphasised the irrelevance.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

TopCat said:


> You are hardly a spring chook yerself to be fair. This criticism of old men having had their day is just shit though. Enough of us old men have been critical friends of the book fair for decades. Given what happened with the demise of the old book fair it's reasonable to continue to have a critical eye on the new organisers. The lack of transparency regarding allocating space was a definite mis step. Having no discussion regarding the war, especially given the positions taken up by many attending just emphasised the irrelevance.



I agree, I'm old, but not as old as some 

But I do find it depressing how easily people slip into the whole kids are doing it wrong it was better in my day mindset though.  I'm guilty of it myself and I think it's something we should be vigilant of because it pissed me off when the older generation did it to us and it no doubt pisses the younger generation off when we do it to them.  The attitude of some on these threads has been a long way from critical friendship, which has to recognise mistakes might be made, that people are under resourced and have put in a lot of work, and that sometimes things such as the Ukraine workshop just don't come off for various reasons.  We were lucky enough that not everything we did was being hyper scrutinised on the internet (until urban came along) and across social media, we got plenty wrong, there were plenty of fuck ups made, but they weren't endlessly debated online by those whose intentions often seem far from supportive.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> No not aimed at Danny at all, I agree with a lot of what he said.  But I don't agree that things were much better 20 years ago despite the changing demographics on urban.


Well I'm not going to die in a ditch but I was not referring to "the left" but wider society in general - like Danny and I'm not saying things were necessarily "better", just that  I think the trend of exiling class that was present 20 years ago has only gotten stronger. 
Scabbing certainly occurred but I remember standing as a student on picket lines at my university and more than a few people looking sheepish as they crossed. Now plenty will cross without a second thought, they'll even insist how progressive they are, and in some ways they might be, the idea that scabbing is one of the most anti-social actions one can do does not even register with them.


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## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> kids are doing it wrong it was better in my day mindset though.


Where is this being said, though?  The only mention of “kids” was from the authors of that bizarre thesis, and even then it was their own claim.  In fact there was some doubt cast on whether the claim was justified.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> The sort of collective class consciousness that was around even 20 years ago may have been very much weakened from the 45-75 period but to me it seems miles ahead of the present.


The trouble I think is that this is routinely linked to Failures Of The Left as a movement, rather than understood as being part of a long systemic decline which _produces_ the movement. Like the New Left of the 60s-70s is routinely picked out by the crustier tankies as being the start of a decline and turn away from class struggle towards identity but there's little acknowledgement in there that this was symptom, not cause. Class struggle didn't magically disappear because students were having some funny ideas.



redsquirrel said:


> Take U75 for an example, 20 years ago most of the politics forum regulars - whether trots, tankies, anarchists or other - organised on the basis of class politics. Now that is a minority view.


Is it? Who here would you say isn't organising on the basis of class politics?


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## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Who here would you say isn't organising on the basis of class politics?


Are we really doing denunciations? 😆


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Given what happened with the demise of the old book fair it's reasonable to continue to have a critical eye on the new organisers. The lack of transparency regarding allocating space was a definite mis step.


The new organisers were not responsible for the demise of the old bookfair though?



TopCat said:


> Having no discussion regarding the war, especially given the positions taken up by many attending just emphasised the irrelevance.


FYI: They actually did make an effort to get speakers from Eastern Europe but it didn't pan out. And frankly having a bunch of Westerners Having Opinions about wars in places they can barely find on maps, let alone influence in any serious way, doesn't sound like relevance to me. I'd certainly not boot a talk on workplace organising for it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The trouble I think is that this is routinely linked to Failures Of The Left as a movement, rather than understood as being part of a long systemic decline which _produces_ the movement. Like the New Left of the 60s-70s is routinely picked out by the crustier tankies as being the start of a decline and turn away from class struggle towards identity but there's little acknowledgement in there that this was symptom, not cause. Class struggle didn't magically disappear because students were having some funny ideas.


I'd agree with this and I wasn't trying to link it to "the left", I was concurring with Danny that the wider explicit working class networks have continued to disappear. 



Rob Ray said:


> Is it? Who here would you say isn't organising on the basis of class politics?


I'm not talking about this thread but the politics forums in general.
I don't know who the most regular posters are these days but a considerable number of U75 politics posters have explicitly argued for an Anti-Tory vote, a progressive politics rather than a class based one.
When SpineyNorman made some basic points about class struggle on the Ukraine thread the majority of replies did not even appear to comprehend what he was talking about, and at least one of those posters calls themselves a socialist.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2022)

I don't think the forum in general is _majority_ uninterested in class - Spymaster's hardly representative and that thread has a higher than usual number of people with liberal/right politics because of its subject matter. The "progressive voter" has always featured here, whether it's grown I couldn't say, definitely did during the Corbyn kerfuffle but can't say I've noticed a major sea change or owt.

I dunno I think there's a strong tendency for folks who've been around a while to look at the silly shit people say and think "everyone's getting stupider/losing their political nous" while forgetting the amount of absolute bollocks we talked and read back in the day, from which only a minority of intelligent thinking emerged which we think of as our generation's contribution.


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## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I don't think the forum in general is _majority_ uninterested in class


There may be majority _interest_ in class, but whenever class is discussed in U75 politics (and I don’t mean “these days”, I mean since I can remember), the general _understanding_ is woeful.  What class means, what class analysis is, what the implications are. _Every time_ you have to explain it all again.


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## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Where is this being said, though?  The only mention of “kids” was from the authors of that bizarre thesis, and even then it was their own claim.  In fact there was some doubt cast on whether the claim was justified.



It's implicit in the whole debate both here and elsewhere, whether it's talking about how much better the old bookfair was, or the bemoaning of the lack of class politics compared to 20 years ago, or the snide comments upthread about how you could 'smell the liberalism' at this year's bookfair.  I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's true.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The "progressive voter" has always featured here, whether it's grown I dunno, definitely did during the Corbyn kerfuffle but can't say I've noticed a major sea change or owt.


Well its a bit of a distraction but when I think back to when I joined the politics regulars were probably 25% anarchists, 25% trots, 25% unaligned class politicos, 25% liberal/right.
I don't think it is anything like that balance these days, or has been for a long time. I won't even say that less of a lefty ghetto is necessarily a bad thing but I think there's definitely been a change.


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## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> It's implicit in the whole debate both here and elsewhere, whether it's talking about how much better the old bookfair was, or the bemoaning of the lack of class politics compared to 20 years ago, or the snide comments upthread about how you could 'smell the liberalism' at this year's bookfair.  I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's true.


Not all liberals are kids, are they?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

Anyway, if discussion is going back to the London Bookfair I’ll duck out.  Like I say, I know nothing of those matters.


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## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> Well its a bit of a distraction but when I think back to when I joined the politics regulars were probably 25% anarchists, 25% trots, 25% unaligned class politicos, 25% liberal/right.
> I don't think it is anything like that balance these days, or has been for a long time. I won't even say that less of a lefty ghetto is necessarily a bad thing but I think there's definitely been a change.


It's changed beyond recognition, or at least p&p has, but I'm not convinced the changing demographics of urban tells us much about the wider demographics of society, I think it's more to do with the decline of message boards and the growth of social media.


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## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The new organisers were not responsible for the demise of the old bookfair though?
> 
> 
> FYI: They actually did make an effort to get speakers from Eastern Europe but it didn't pan out. And frankly having a bunch of Westerners Having Opinions about wars in places they can barely find on maps, let alone influence in any serious way, doesn't sound like relevance to me. I'd certainly not boot a talk on workplace organising for it.


Just as well there were no public meetings in the UK on the Russian Revolution when it occurred or the Spanish Civil War in the mid to late 1930s or meetings on Vietnam in the 1970s . Fuck knows what the Australian left and anarchists did with the events in 1968 probably couldn't even  discuss it .


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 20, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just as well there were no public meetings in the UK on the Russian Revolution when it occurred or the Spanish Civil War in the mid to late 1930s or meetings on Vietnam in the 1970s . Fuck knows what the Australian left and anarchists did with the events in 1968 probably couldn't even  discuss it .


Good. They should stick to their lane.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just as well there were no public meetings in the UK on the Russian Revolution when it occurred or the Spanish Civil War in the mid to late 1930s or meetings on Vietnam in the 1970s . Fuck knows what the Australian left and anarchists did with the events in 1968 probably couldn't even  discuss it .


Yes all entirely similar phenomena historically and practically .


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## smokedout (Sep 20, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just as well there were no public meetings in the UK on the Russian Revolution when it occurred or the Spanish Civil War in the mid to late 1930s or meetings on Vietnam in the 1970s . Fuck knows what the Australian left and anarchists did with the events in 1968 probably couldn't even  discuss it .



I'm not sure who you'd ask from an anarchist perspective though.  There aren't any groups or individuals that spring to mind who aren't from the region I'd be particularly interested in hearing discuss it.  And the Skateboarders Against The War never turned up


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## TopCat (Sep 20, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just as well there were no public meetings in the UK on the Russian Revolution when it occurred or the Spanish Civil War in the mid to late 1930s or meetings on Vietnam in the 1970s . Fuck knows what the Australian left and anarchists did with the events in 1968 probably couldn't even  discuss it .


Innit


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## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2022)

Meanwhile, a thread not too far away is on its 557th page. Which has been great for forming an international Brigade, shutting down British involvement in encouraging an imperial invasion and getting inspired by social revolts I'm sure.


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## TopCat (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I'm not sure who you'd ask from an anarchist perspective though.  There aren't any groups or individuals that spring to mind who aren't from the region I'd be particularly interested in hearing discuss it.  And the Skateboarders Against The War never turned up


Clueless


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## TopCat (Sep 20, 2022)

I won’t be adding to the post count.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 20, 2022)

When I joined my first anarchist group in 1972 or so, anarchism in the UK had no real significance at all for most people. Things have changed a little bit, but not a lot, probably due more to Johnny Rotten than anyone or anything else. 
Among a section on the left there is sympathy or association with anarchism, which wasn't always there. Anarchist ideas and ideals are widely accepted, but they always have been. It's only when the individual ideas and strands of anarchist thought are put together that people have trouble with it all, that it all seems unachievable and utopian.
How to change that is a huge problem, maybe with no solution. 
Bookfairs can be great if you are a bit of a bookworm and interested in anarchism already. That excludes so much of society. That doesn't mean they aren't worth organising. Just don't expect too much.


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## hitmouse (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I'm not sure who you'd ask from an anarchist perspective though.  There aren't any groups or individuals that spring to mind who aren't from the region I'd be particularly interested in hearing discuss it.  And the Skateboarders Against The War never turned up


I reckon London Makhnovists would be worth hearing from? Fwiw, this event looked pretty worthwhile, maybe you'd have to swap out the AWL for one of the assorted leftcom groups to make it more bookfair-friendly though:








						Discussing solidarity with the Ukrainian working class | We are Plan C
					

https://youtu.be/69KJciZPbiE On the 25th of June, Plan C hosted a discussion on solidarity with the working class of Ukraine. The discussion features the voices of friends and comrades from Angry Workers of the World, Workers Liberty, Operation Solidarity (Ukraine) and Sotsialnyi Rukh (Ukraine)...



					www.weareplanc.org
				





But general point taken that I'm sure everyone slagging off the bookfair for not doing a Ukraine meeting has probably slagged the British left off in the past for being too focused on international stuff, too much Bolivia and not enough Basildon etc.


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## nastyned (Sep 20, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> But general point taken that I'm sure everyone slagging off the bookfair for not doing a Ukraine meeting has probably slagged the British left off in the past for being too focused on international stuff, too much Bolivia and not enough Basildon etc.


It's the not allowing a meeting rather than not having one that concerns me.


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## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I'm not sure who you'd ask from an anarchist perspective though.  There aren't any groups or individuals that spring to mind who aren't from the region I'd be particularly interested in hearing discuss it.  And the Skateboarders Against The War never turned up


I was as disappointed as you were with SATW ( In Ukraine)  tbh. I heard they didn't show up as someone on the organising committee, probably that bloke with the yellow fluorescent jacket, pointed out that legally they should be called Skateboarders Against The Special Operation  ( SATSO-In Ukraine)  and that would require re-registering for the stall. Hopefully, they will be on next year though.


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## LDC (Sep 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> But general point taken that I'm sure everyone slagging off the bookfair for not doing a Ukraine meeting has probably slagged the British left off in the past for being too focused on international stuff, too much Bolivia and not enough Basildon etc.



Lots to say about that, but I think there's pretty clear arguments why the Ukraine war has a much more direct impact on us here than whatever is happening in Bolivia etc. But either way I think the bulk of what we do needs to be about what's going on where we live and work, but not neglecting international perspectives is also important, even if it's in some part to stop us getting too parochially obsessive about our own 'local' issues by trying to prevent that well worn slide of people from a wider pro-revolutionary struggle/activism into myopic 'community politics' where they end up lobbying the local council for more zebra crossings and litter picking.

Want to like and dislike lots of the previous posts (sometimes both for the same post...) about the Bookfair and anarchism in 2020s Britain. Might try and write more later.


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## danny la rouge (Sep 21, 2022)

LDC said:


> I think the bulk of what we do needs to be about what's going on where we live and work


Exactly. And Sick of It All is a good example of that.  When I was in the ACG, we had an education workers’ section that I was part of, as well as other industry specific sections. _Especifismo and social insertion_, to use the horrible (and potentially slightly misleading) jargon. 

That’s got to be the focus. Getting involved in real issues specific to our communities and workplaces.


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## hitmouse (Sep 21, 2022)

Am appreciating the discussion here, keep on meaning to write an actual post with some substance to it but this week so far hasn't really been allowing me the time/headspace.


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## LDC (Sep 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Am appreciating the discussion here, keep on meaning to write an actual post with some substance to it but this week so far hasn't really been allowing me the time/headspace.



Yeah same, there's lots of interesting stuff to discuss, and questions to think on. Might have to be the weekend now.


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## Wilf (Sep 21, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah same, there's lots of interesting stuff to discuss, and questions to think on. Might have to be the weekend now.


Me too! Thought it'll probably about some event I fell asleep at.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I reckon London Makhnovists would be worth hearing from? Fwiw, this event looked pretty worthwhile, maybe you'd have to swap out the AWL for one of the assorted leftcom groups to make it more bookfair-friendly though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The general rule on the left is the further away it is the easier it is to support which is one of the reasons so few groups have had any focus on Ireland North or south in the past 50 years


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## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I reckon London Makhnovists would be worth hearing from? Fwiw, this event looked pretty worthwhile, maybe you'd have to swap out the AWL for one of the assorted leftcom groups to make it more bookfair-friendly though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I managed to watch/listen to this ,off and on ,  which at 3 hours long is no mean feat tbh. Great pity there wasn't better planning around the length of contributions because in a sea of words there were the occasional sightings of land worth exploring further, mainly from Plan C and Angry Workers. The latter at least had a go at exploring workers self activity and made an interesting point that the activity by some workers organisations  in some countries against NATO couldn't just be dismissed as Stalinism although there was a legacy of the CP in trade union action. The AWL veered between all gloss and no substance to hectoring, Sotsialnyi Rukh came across as some form of monopoly gatekeepers to independent unions and were full of their own self importance  not on the basis of anything more concrete than they were Ukrainian tbh and the discussion at the end was very disappointing.  Better than a lot of the stuff on these boards and worth listening to in small batches IMO


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## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The general rule on the left is the further away it is the easier it is to support which is one of the reasons so few groups have had any focus on Ireland North or south in the past 50 years



How do you feel about Ireland? 
Ireland? 
Yeah, Ireland That place, it's just across the sea
Oh yeah, I know the place
Well they said:
"We're for Sandinista, Cuba's militia
The PLO, M.P.L.A, Afghanistan and Babylon"
They went on and on and on and on


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## Athos (Sep 21, 2022)

I guess it's one of those things.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 21, 2022)

FWIW the Zosia Brom post about the Bookfair is now visible here:

Post in thread 'London Anarchist Bookfair 2022'
London Anarchist Bookfair 2022


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 21, 2022)

I think, like others, that the discussion on this thread got better the less it was about the specifics of the bookfair, so I have mixed feelings about potentially bringing it back to that.

I will try to give the Plan C thing about Ukraine a listen.


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## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> FWIW the Zosia Brom post about the Bookfair is now visible here:
> 
> Post in thread 'London Anarchist Bookfair 2022'
> London Anarchist Bookfair 2022



Completely fails to address whether the advice given to Skateboarders Against The War about having to change their name to Skateboarders Against The Special Operation was legal or not


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## belboid (Sep 22, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup.
> 
> An example I always return to is the 1926 general strike.  There existed then a working network of trades councils. That structure was adapted to help the coordination of news, food supplies, and much else.
> 
> ...


This mention of Trades Councils prompted a thought (generally, not specifically about the bookfair or indeed this post).   I would largely agree with the above, at least up until fairly recently.

Over the last few years here the TC _has _become more relevant.  But that's not because of the old RMT/Unite/PCS delegates have suddenly become 'better', it's because of the involvement of the newer unions like the IGWB and their tactics and successes at organising being undoubtedly impressive and everyone wanting in on it. It's given them a whole new audience and relevance.  

Which all sounds good, but isn't a point of the IWW and it's... legacy organisations, _not _to be a part of the traditional TU network?  Won't this drag them down and turn them into just another union? On one level, the advantage to both is obvious, but on another does it risk undermining the broader aims of the union?


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## Rob Ray (Sep 22, 2022)

The IWW yes, the IWGB as is though is a base union, not necessarily a syndicalist one with an inherent critique of trades council engagement. Their small size and younger/more activist leadership grants them energy and flexibility but the odds are that time and growth will see them settle into a more bureaucratic form.


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## hitmouse (Sep 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I managed to watch/listen to this ,off and on ,  which at 3 hours long is no mean feat tbh. Great pity there wasn't better planning around the length of contributions because in a sea of words there were the occasional sightings of land worth exploring further, mainly from Plan C and Angry Workers. The latter at least had a go at exploring workers self activity and made an interesting point that the activity by some workers organisations  in some countries against NATO couldn't just be dismissed as Stalinism although there was a legacy of the CP in trade union action. The AWL veered between all gloss and no substance to hectoring, Sotsialnyi Rukh came across as some form of monopoly gatekeepers to independent unions and were full of their own self importance  not on the basis of anything more concrete than they were Ukrainian tbh and the discussion at the end was very disappointing.  Better than a lot of the stuff on these boards and worth listening to in small batches IMO


Cor, you've got a better attention span than I do - I'd also been meaning to get around to watching the whole thing, but my attempts at watching it have been a bit more off than on so far.


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## The39thStep (Sep 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Cor, you've got a better attention span than I do - I'd also been meaning to get around to watching the whole thing, but my attempts at watching it have been a bit more off than on so far.


The dogs woke me up at 5 so I thought might as well start listening. Did it in shifts. Tbh an hour would have been quite sufficient if the subject matter/ discussion had been more focussed


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## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The dogs woke me up at 5 so I thought might as well start listening. Did it in shifts. Tbh an hour would have been quite sufficient if the subject matter/ discussion had been more focussed


You are nothing if not stakhanovite


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## ska invita (Oct 16, 2022)

Bookfair interviews etc
To celebrate the 2022 London Anarchist Bookfair Dissident Island and Radio Ava joined forces to collect various voices from the bookfair and beyond. Noises on offer include:

00:00:00 - 00:06:12  Introduction & Radical Whores
00:09:13 - 00:28:16 Don't Pay UK
00:31:23 - 00:58:50 The Rise of Ecofascism
01:01:03 - 01:19:54 Terribe People Zine
01:22:25 - 01:40:43 ACAB legal update (with words from Bristol Defendant Solidarity)
01:42:30 - 02:02:00 Palestine Action
02:06:16 - 02:20:28 Touchpaper
02:24:00 - 02:50:38  Professor G on the persistence of the monarchy
02:55:50 - 03:08:41  Man-Made Zine (instagram: @manmadezine)
03:12:50 - 03:32:17 Final remarks and sounds from the Chris Kaba demonstration in September








						Dissident Island Radio: September 2022
					

To celebrate the 2022  Dissident Island and Radio Ava joined forces to collect various voices from the bookfair and beyond. Noises on offer include:   00:00:00 - 00:06:12  Introduction & Radical Whores 00:09:13 - 00:28:16   00:31:23 - 00:58:50  01:01:03 - 01:19:54   01:22:25 - 01:40:43  legal...



					dissidentisland.org


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## cesare (Oct 16, 2022)

> Wow, so much work there @ska invita


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## ska invita (Oct 16, 2022)

In case any doubt, I didn't do it!


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## hitmouse (Nov 7, 2022)

Did anyone do Manchester at the weekend? Sheffield date set for Feb 2023:


			Sheffield Radical Bookfair 2023 – Manchester & Salford Anarchist Bookfair 2023


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## danny la rouge (Nov 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Did anyone do Manchester at the weekend? Sheffield date set for Feb 2023:
> 
> 
> Sheffield Radical Bookfair 2023 – Manchester & Salford Anarchist Bookfair 2023


Yes, we were there. Well not me, but AnarCom Net comrades.


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## hitmouse (Nov 7, 2022)

I've not heard anything about it, which I think is probably a sign of a bookfair that went smoothly?


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## danny la rouge (Nov 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I've not heard anything about it, which I think is probably a sign of a bookfair that went smoothly?


Good reports anyway.


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