# iPad mini: news, mad rantings, wild speculations & general flame bait postings!



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 15, 2012)

Looks like the iPad mini is becoming more and more likely so here's a handy thread for all those who wish to discuss, chat, and speculate on it. And those who like to lose their marbles over bits of silicon, plastic and electrical parts! 

Current rumour is the iPad mini will take its design cue from the iPod touch not the iPad. Not sure how appealing that is tbh but I can sorta see a book/Kindle logic to it due to the one hand holding not needing a thick bezel...









> _Daring Fireball_'s John Gruber shares his thoughts on the device, including his belief that some of the leaked rear shell photos may indeed be genuine given the similarities seen among several independent leaks. Gruber goes on to argue in support of the narrower side bezels, noting that with the device falling in between the full-size iPad and the iPod touch its design is likely to similarly fall somewhere between the two existing devices.


 
Read more.


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## Crispy (Aug 15, 2012)

It would be a sensible move for them to make, with the screen exactly as Gruber says. Exact size and shape irrelevant. Price? $50 more than the equivalent Nexus, unless Apple want to forego their usual fat margins.

Further comment reserved until/if it is announced


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 15, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It would be a sensible move for them to make, with the screen exactly as Gruber says. Exact size and shape irrelevant. Price? $50 more than the equivalent Nexus, unless Apple want to forego their usual fat margins.
> 
> Further comment reserved until/if it is announced


 
£250 for a quality 7" tablet isn't too bad but £199 would be much nicer!


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## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

£159 is even better. Can't say I like the look of that mock up much. Looks a bit weird.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 15, 2012)

When's it being released?


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 15, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> When's it being released?



Rumour has it there's an event on September 12th launching the new iPhone and this will be part of the bill.


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## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

According to Gruber, the screen will be 1024 × 768 pixels at 163 PPI. That really is poor compared to the Nexus 7's 1280 x 800 pixels at 216 PPI.

I really can't imagine Apple releasing such a markedly inferior product when the screen has been the major selling point of all their recent iPhone/iPad launches.


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## Crispy (Aug 15, 2012)

Depends if they're aiming to compete on quality or price. Once again, remember the progression of iPod models.


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## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Depends if they're aiming to compete on quality or price. Once again, remember the progression of iPod models.


This is different though. There was no credible rivel to iPods from the start - they were defining the market.

If they're looking to offer a mainstream tablet that's going to compete with the Nexus - which has been universally very well reviewed - it would seem very un-Apple like for them to release something that has a significantly worse screen.

The difference betwixt 1280 to 1024 pixels may not sound that much, but it's noticeable when you're viewing websites (85% of which are over 1024 pixels wide) and the much lower screen density will mean that the Nexus's display will look much slicker.

So Apple will be losing on both quality and price.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 15, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Depends if they're aiming to compete on quality or price. Once again, remember the progression of iPod models.



Indeed. Apple will always go for the high end then iterate down market.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 22, 2012)

Apparently Apple have now told resellers to increase the inshore space for iPads, this is being taken as a strong indicator a new iPad is coming...


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## elbows (Aug 22, 2012)

editor said:


> This is different though. There was no credible rivel to iPods from the start - they were defining the market.
> 
> If they're looking to offer a mainstream tablet that's going to compete with the Nexus - which has been universally very well reviewed - it would seem very un-Apple like for them to release something that has a significantly worse screen.
> 
> ...


 
I've no opinion yet on the probability of the resolution rumours being true, but I think you've got the wrong end of the stick somewhere as to the implications of this resolution.

The real story here is about aspect ratio. 1024x768 means sticking with the 4:3 aspect ratio, maintaining this long-standing difference between android and iOS tablets.

We've talked before about the pro's and cons of the different aspect ratio's, but I honestly believe that when it comes to website browsing, the nearest thing to a consensus we have is that 4:3 often works better than 16:9 or 16:10. Browsing websites in landscape mode on my nexus 7 is a weird experience compared to the ipad 2, it feels like someone has stolen half of the screen. The extra resolution makes things look nice, but doesnt really seem to make a significant difference to how the website arranges itself.

And Im afraid you really mangled that 85% statistic. What it actually means is that 85% of visitors to that site have a screen resolution higher than 1024x768. Thats completely different and doesnt fit your point at all. And it seems pretty likely that site under-represents mobile internet browsing since its not exactly the sort of place that fits like a glove with accessing it on the move. I strongly suspect that most websites are still designed with 1024x768 as a minimum res in mind, perhaps using a 960 grid system for example, and the success of the first 2 ipads with their 1024x768 resolution is only going to make this design decision hang around even longer.


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## elbows (Aug 22, 2012)

Also while I personally absolutely love high-density screens and will rave about their capabilities for certain content, the fact the 1024x768 9.7" iPad 2 still sells tends to suggest that that the same resolution on a screen a few inches smaller will not hamper Apple all that much at this point. The screen density difference between the android and ipad smaller tablets will not be that dramatic at all, especially if the aspect ratios are different, and when making a side-by-side comparison other factors such as those affecting perception of contrast, colour and brightness may make more difference to initial opinions on which looks better.


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## elbows (Aug 22, 2012)

Bottom line is Im still rejoicing that we dont have to look at shoddy screens anymore, low-res mobile screens with a very visible resistive touchscreen layer muddying the picture, how I do not miss those sad years.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 22, 2012)

Yeah resistive screens really were shit compared to what we have today...


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 22, 2012)

elbows said:


> Bottom line is Im still rejoicing that we dont have to look at shoddy screens anymore, low-res mobile screens with a very visible resistive touchscreen layer muddying the picture, how I do not miss those sad years.


My laptop screen is looking very old skool (i.e. rubbish) these days.  I wonder how long it'll be before we get better laptop screens as standard?


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 22, 2012)

About 2 years?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 22, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> My laptop screen is looking very old skool (i.e. rubbish) these days. I wonder how long it'll be before we get better laptop screens as standard?


 
Yeah 1366x768 is rather long in the tooth now. Even my netbook I bought 2 years ago for £200 has it! It shocking they still sell new 15" machines like it.


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 22, 2012)

Last time I flew long haul, my and my mate got our ipads out on the plane and could not believe how crap those seat-back tv screens look compared. 
I expect planes will ditch these soon, no need for the expense as so many people have a tablet of some description.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 22, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Last time I flew long haul, my and my mate got our ipads out on the plane and could not believe how crap those seat-back tv screens look compared.
> I expect planes will ditch these soon, no need for the expense as so many people have a tablet of some description.


 
One airline (I forget which) apparently has dumped their in flight screen/entertainment system and replaced them with iPads.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 22, 2012)

On another note...have to say if Apple release an iPad mini that looks like this they're on to a real winner!






It's what I imagined a smaller iPad could look like when I first got my Kindle 3G (the keyboard one)...


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## editor (Aug 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> I've no opinion yet on the probability of the resolution rumours being true, but I think you've got the wrong end of the stick somewhere as to the implications of this resolution.


No, I haven't. All Apple's recent big product releases have been about their remarkable high-res screens.

So why on earth would they release a new product that has a _significantly_ crappier resolution that looks rubbish compared to its cheaper rivals?

I'll be amazed if they release such a shoddy screen in 2012.


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## elbows (Aug 23, 2012)

editor said:


> No, I haven't. All Apple's recent big product releases have been about their remarkable high-res screens.
> 
> So why on earth would they release a new product that has a _significantly_ crappier resolution that looks rubbish compared to its cheaper rivals?
> 
> I'll be amazed if they release such a shoddy screen in 2012.


 
Certainly its possible to find several reasons why this makes complete sense.

Im not saying they most likely will bring it out with 1024x768 res but I did want to point out that some of the implications of this resolution that you mentioned were wide of the mark. Such a resolution certainly isnt a good fit for their recent products spec & marketing, like you said. But I couldnt go so far as to call it a shoddy screen when we are talking about that size of screen, shoddy really isnt the right term. Its like when we were having a debate about 10 inch tablets and their possible use as a laptop alternative. I was gushing about the stupidly high resolution of the ipad 3, and what benefits it may have for certain scenarios. You were very far from convinced by my argument, perhaps in part because even if the resolution of the 10 inch tablets you favoured were well below the silly bar set by the ipad 3, they were still deemed to be at minimum quite adequate, certainly not shoddy.

I also leave the door open to less than premium spec for a new device if Apple have decided to be quite competitive on price. Although 7 and 10 inch tablets are proving to be quite different devices in many ways, Apple are still competing with themselves to a certain extent, they dont want to make the ipad 3 look overpriced compared to the smaller iPad.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 23, 2012)

editor said:


> No, I haven't. All Apple's recent big product releases have been about their remarkable high-res screens.
> 
> So why on earth would they release a new product that has a _significantly_ crappier resolution that looks rubbish compared to its cheaper rivals?
> 
> I'll be amazed if they release such a shoddy screen in 2012.



Not true the 4S was about Siri. It's entirely possible this won't have a retina screen nor does it need it for the mobility and price it could come in at...


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## RaverDrew (Aug 23, 2012)

There'll be no ipad mini this year, just can't see it happening at all.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> There'll be no ipad mini this year, just can't see it happening at all.



Wanna bet?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 23, 2012)

There will be no iPad mini.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There will be no iPad mini.


 
Is that your version of 'These aren't the droids you're looking for?'.


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## RaverDrew (Aug 24, 2012)

http://www.theipadguide.com/content/place-your-bets-sky-bet-releases-ipad-3-odds/71712331

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobil...-bet-why-we-pulled-our-ipad-3-betting-1067810


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 28, 2012)

Latest 'rumor' is there's two events coming, a new iPhone in a couple weeks. Then the iPad mini in October...


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks for bumping the thread with the latest meaningless imaginary bullshit.


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## quimcunx (Aug 29, 2012)

So while we're shooting the breeze why does my phone not have a non glare screen like my kindle? and why does my kindle not have a colour screen like my phone?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> So while we're shooting the breeze why does my phone not have a non glare screen like my kindle? and why does my kindle not have a colour screen like my phone?


They're photoshopped.  You can tell by the pixels.


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## quimcunx (Aug 29, 2012)

May you lose a pen a day.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 29, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Thanks for bumping the thread with the latest meaningless imaginary bullshit.


 
Thanks for the meaningless post which ignores the title and purpose of the thread.


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## elbows (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm waiting for the store to update to I dont make any pricing fact mistakes, but the rather high price of the new iPod Touch seems to be off in a world of its own, divorced from emerging 7" tablet pricing realities. And a price that will cause more headscratching from me about the chances of an iPad mini and what price it would be.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2012)

So there we have it. The iPad Mini was indeed a pile of meaningless imaginary bullshit.


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## elbows (Sep 12, 2012)

editor said:


> So there we have it. The iPad Mini was indeed a pile of meaningless imaginary bullshit.


 
I think you are supposed to wait till the end of October before setting that conclusion in stone, since rumours suggested it will be announced later.

The iPod Touch price certainly gives me pause for thought, but firm conclusions seem unwise.


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2012)

iPads and iPhones always get separate launch events


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2012)

It is bullshit though.


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2012)

I will wait and see


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> iPads and iPhones always get separate launch events



It's rumored for weeks that it would have its on event in October...


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2012)

Zero part leaks though, so don't get your hopes up.


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## elbows (Sep 12, 2012)

OK so I'm going to think about these prices, all of which are the starting from prices:

iPod nano £129
iPod touch older model £169
iPod touch new model £249
iPad 2 £329
iPad 3 £399

OK so there is a bit of a price gap they could slot an iPad mini into. I would not call it ideal, and it doesnt take any account of the competition, but thats not surprising since Apple dont generally fight on that front unless they absolutely have to.

When making a decision about whether to release such a product, I guess they'd be thinking about whether an iPad mini will give them a nice chunk of income they would otherwise not have received, or whether it will mostly cannibalise some of their own sales of devices that sit either side of it, ie the new iPod Touch or the iPad 2. Couple that with the hassle of developing apps optimised for that size screen, and I wont be surprised if they dont bother this year, but then again I wouldnt be really shocked if they do.

In any case by pricing the iPod touch above android tablets like the Nexus 7 they are certainly demonstrating confidence in the premium nature of their gizmos.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> I think you are supposed to wait till the end of October before setting that conclusion in stone, since rumours suggested it will be announced later.
> 
> The iPod Touch price certainly gives me pause for thought, but firm conclusions seem unwise.


According to the link in the opening post, "the device will be introduced at Apple's iPhone media event reportedly set for September 12."

So that bit was meaningless imaginary bullshit.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I will wait and see


What will be your hat's involvement in this one?


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Zero part leaks though, so don't get your hopes up.



How many leaks of the Nano?


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How many leaks of the Nano?


I'd seen the design before, but can't remember which site. I seem to remember seeing a photo of the front plate too.

The only "evidence" of new iPads is device IDs recorded by instapaper: 2,5 and 2,6. Current models are 1,2,3 and 4 for the various wireless standards and the die-shrink. Pretty flimsy.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'd seen the design before, but can't remember which site. I seem to remember seeing a photo of the front plate too.
> 
> The only "evidence" of new iPads is device IDs recorded by instapaper: 2,5 and 2,6. Current models are 1,2,3 and 4 for the various wireless standards and the die-shrink. Pretty flimsy.



I saw one or two but nowhere near a deluge, no leaks doesn't prove no product in this strange Apple world that certain tech bloggers push...


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 1, 2012)

Lots of excitement over an alleged leaking that invites are going out for an iPad mini event in the next couple weeks....


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## editor (Oct 1, 2012)

Imagine getting excited over a made up rumour.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 1, 2012)

Being built in Brazil which is an interesting move...


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## Kanda (Oct 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Imagine getting excited over a made up rumour.


 
thought you two were supposed to be leaving each other alone??


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

Kanda said:
			
		

> thought you two were supposed to be leaving each other alone??



They love it


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 2, 2012)

Kanda said:


> thought you two were supposed to be leaving each other alone??



Indeed. I haven't directly engaged the guy in a few weeks and still he follows me round the board throwing snide remarks and digs at every opportunity.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 2, 2012)

Badgers said:


> They love it



I really don't. His tactics poison threads and turn good discussions bad. It's interesting that he's now starting to act that way to non techy posters too. He's simply a bully.


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## sim667 (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm trying to sell my ipad 1 at the minute, in order to buy an ipad 3.

If these get released at that price mark, that'll drop the worth of me ipad 1 like a ton of bricks....

I better get on and sell it :/


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## maldwyn (Oct 2, 2012)

Three weeks to get rid at tops


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I really don't. His tactics poison threads and turn good discussions bad. It's interesting that he's now starting to act that way to non techy posters too. He's simply a bully.


Stop these off-topic personal attacks please.


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## sim667 (Oct 2, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Three weeks to get rid at tops


 
hmmmm. shit

On it, I've been asking £175 for it, (16GB wifi)..... wonder if its a bit much.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> hmmmm. shit
> 
> On it, I've been asking £175 for it, (16GB wifi)..... wonder if its a bit much.


That's around the current eBay price, but maybe a quick sale for £25 less might shift it.


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## Crispy (Oct 2, 2012)

There's a used one with included bluetooth keyboard about to go for £187+p&p.
Good condition ones can go for up to £220

More than half the new price after two years is pretty remarkable for a computer.


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## sim667 (Oct 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> There's a used one with included bluetooth keyboard about to go for £187+p&p.
> Good condition ones can go for up to £220



Mines in top quality nick tbh.


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## Crispy (Oct 2, 2012)

Mine's scratched to fuck and the 3G antenna plastic is chipped. I wouldn't even bother


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## Kanda (Oct 2, 2012)

Mines in pretty good nick but since getting the iPad3 I just use it like a coffee table book for anyone to use.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> There's a used one with included bluetooth keyboard about to go for £187+p&p.
> Good condition ones can go for up to £220
> 
> More than half the new price after two years is pretty remarkable for a computer.


It is. iPads keep the prices remarkably well (as do most Apple products).


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## maldwyn (Oct 2, 2012)

> On it, I've been asking £175 for it, (16GB wifi)..... wonder if its a bit much.


I had a quick look at some sites and £175 was mid to high - £150 would move it quicker


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

Seems increasingly likely to be a real product, with the likes of the Wall Street Journal adding to the reports that its in mass production now.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Seems increasingly likely to be a real product, with the likes of the Wall Street Journal adding to the reports that its in mass production now.


If true, it's great to see Apple following Google, Samsung and Amazon's lead and bringing some competition to a format which Steve Jobs famously insisted would have to come with sandpaper, so users could file their fingers down to a quarter of their size to use them.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 3, 2012)

With this and the Maps debacle, the Jobs legacy sure seems to be eroding a little.


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## maldwyn (Oct 3, 2012)

There's enough evidence to suggest Jobs was finally receptive to the idea of a 7" iPad 

Friday will be the first anniversary of his death, his legacy hasn't been derailed by the Maps hiccup.


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> If true, it's great to see Apple following Google, Samsung and Amazon's lead and bringing some competition to a format which Steve Jobs famously insisted would have to come with sandpaper, so users could file their fingers down to a quarter of their size to use them.


 
On the face of it, the sandpaper comment was one of the most stupid things he said this century, given that his own company make iphones and ipod touches that are way smaller than any tablet.

Taken in context I still mostly dont agree with it, but I think he had one valid point, one on which the jury is still out on.

Lets look at a much larger chunk of what he said:




> One naturally thinks that a seven-inch screen would offer 70% of the benefits of a 10-inch screen. Unfortunately, this is far from the truth. The screen measurements are diagonal, so that a seven-inch screen is only 45% as large as iPad's 10-inch screen. You heard me right; just 45% as large
> If you take an iPad and hold it upright in portrait view and draw an imaginary horizontal line halfway down the screen, the screens on the seven-inch tablets are a bit smaller than the bottom half of the iPad display. This size isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps in our opinion.
> Well, one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of the difference. It is meaningless, unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of the present size. Apple's done extensive user-testing on touch interfaces over many years, and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touch screen before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10-inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet apps.
> Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smartphone, its ease of fitting into your pocket or purse, its unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd. Given that all tablet users will already have a smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in our pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The seven-inch tablets are tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad.




(from http://seekingalpha.com/article/230...-results-earnings-call-transcript?part=single )

Having a Nexus 7, an iPad and a smartphone, I do know what he means about 7" tablets being a tweener, but the 7" form is really nice for some things so I dont agree with what he said.

Where his comments do start to make some sense is this stuff about 'great tablet apps'. You know I moan about the lack of certain kinds of apps for android tablets, and you also know that a 7" and 10" tablet feel in somewhat different classes and have a slightly different set of best uses, because you have ended up feeling the need for both. If we take a good example of tablet software, photoshop touch, then its not hard to appreciate that although it may be possible to get it working ok with a smaller tablet, its not the same experience as using it on a larger one.

I reckon if we strip away the hyperbole and the sillier aspects of competition, all we are really left with is the reality that 7" and 10ish" tablets are two different classes of products with strengths and weaknesses. And the somewhat slow pace of tablet software development means we will need to wait a while longer before seeing how tablet apps of the more powerful sort work out on both sizes of tablet. 7" tablets make a hell of a lot of sense for a variety of tasks, but so do 10" ones.


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## Crispy (Oct 3, 2012)

Bear in mind that the purported ipad mini will be 7.85", not 7" - That makes a bit of difference.



 The mini is 61% the size of the ipad, whereas the n7 is down at 40%


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

That will no doubt form part of their explanation for why an ipad mini doesnt fall foul of exactly what Jobs was talking about, even though to an extent it still will. Im rather intrigued as to what they do with the resolution & guidelines for developers - if they make it 1024x768 and let existing ipad apps run on it then thats firmly in the territory of what Jobs was bitching about.


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## Crispy (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> That will no doubt form part of their explanation for why an ipad mini doesnt fall foul of exactly what Jobs was talking about, even though to an extent it still will. Im rather intrigued as to what they do with the resolution & guidelines for developers - if they make it 1024x768 and let existing ipad apps run on it then thats firmly in the territory of what Jobs was bitching about.


Well, the reasoning is that Apple's interface guidelines (and the default widgets in iOS) are the same for ipad and iphone: 40px minimum button size etc. The ipad mini has the same dpi as the iphone 3G, therefore buttons will be large enough. You'll hold the mini as close as you would a pphone, I presume they presume


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> the likes of the Wall Street Journal adding to the reports that its in mass production now.


I don't really think that is evidence for much tbh.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Bear in mind that the purported ipad mini will be 7.85", not 7" - That makes a bit of difference.


That very much depends which made up story you're inclined to give the time of day.


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't really think that is evidence for much tbh.


 
Im not betting my life on anything, but at this point Id be more surprised if a mini ipad doesnt come out before the end of the year than I will if one does.

Whilst I can appreciate why people would not believe the rumours, especially longer ago when they were vaguer, I've never really understood why you were quite so certain there would not be an iPad mini.


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> That very much depends which made up story you're inclined to give the time of day.


 
I just dont understand this attitude towards rumours. Just because there are tons of sites that go on making large stories out of half a sentence of half-baked rumour, doesnt mean that you can just reject everything as a 'made up story'. Especially when some arent, such as the iphone 5 detail. Am I just supposed to read you sneering on and on about made up stories until the day the product is announced, at which point we are supposed to pretend the sneering never happened, only to see it start up again on the next rumour?

By all means be skeptical of rumours, but when more and more details start to emerge from numerous sources that all point in the same direction, its probably time to stop making out that people who pay any attention to the rumours are fools.


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## Crispy (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> That very much depends which made up story you're inclined to give the time of day.


"purported"


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 3, 2012)

I do hope this mini iPad doesn't turn out to be a copy of the Samsung 7" pad.


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## Crispy (Oct 3, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I do hope this mini iPad doesn't turn out to be a copy of the Samsung 7" pad.


Squared edges and a flat back? I doubt it. If I had to bet, I'd bet on a tapered design like the ipad and ipod touch.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> I just dont understand this attitude towards rumours. Just because there are tons of sites that go on making large stories out of half a sentence of half-baked rumour, doesnt mean that you can just reject everything as a 'made up story'. Especially when some arent, such as the iphone 5 detail. Am I just supposed to read you sneering on and on about made up stories until the day the product is announced, at which point we are supposed to pretend the sneering never happened, only to see it start up again on the next rumour?
> 
> By all means be skeptical of rumours, but when more and more details start to emerge from numerous sources that all point in the same direction, its probably time to stop making out that people who pay any attention to the rumours are fools.


Except in this instance, there's been several stories insisting that it's going to be a 7" tablet. That is the only point I was making - and don't forget, I spend a fair chunk of my day having to trawl through all these news feeds.


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I do hope this mini iPad doesn't turn out to be a copy of the Samsung 7" pad.


 
If the iPad mini comes true then it will be hard to see it as inspired by anything other than the success of some other 7" tablets.

If Apple stick to a 4:3 aspect ratio then that will be used to differentiate somewhat, but strong comparisons will still be unavoidable and Apples offering will run the risk of looking especially pricy by comparison.

Even though a while back I said that they should be able to get away with 1024x768 resolution if they want to, personally I would like to see a higher resolution thats comparable to the ipad 3 pixel density, which will partially enable them to justify the price, and may be interesting to develop apps for.


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## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Except in this instance, there's been several stories insisting that it's going to be a 7" tablet. That is the only point I was making - and don't forget, I spend a fair chunk of my day having to trawl through all these news feeds.


 
Fair enough, and I can appreciate how tedious a lot of this stuff is if you have to pay attention to it all on a daily basis.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

I will eat Crispy's hat* if this mythical tablet comes with a resolution as crappily low as 1024 x 768.

(Assuming that Crispy wears a tasty veggie hat hewn from delicious ingredients).


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Fair enough, and I can appreciate how tedious a lot of this stuff is if you have to pay attention to it all on a daily basis.


Some days, I seem to get nothing but made up Apple rumours and fawning posts and it drives me mad.

However, I understand that it's probably makes me more antsy here than I should be sometimes, for which I apologise.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> I will eat Crispy's hat* if this mythical tablet comes with a resolution as crappily low as 1024 x 768.
> 
> (Assuming that Crispy wears a tasty veggie hat hewn from delicious ingredients).


 
It's a plain straw hat, and you can leave the metal brim wire  (condiments are also allowed)


----------



## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Some days, I seem to get nothing but made up Apple rumours and fawning posts and it drives me mad.
> 
> However, I understand that it's probably makes me more antsy here than I should be sometimes, for which I apologise.


 
Thanks, that sentiment is most appreciated by me and hopefully some others.

Sometimes the reason I moaned about some of your posts was because it kind of worries me how much Apple matters were getting to you. Years ago I probably gave you a useless 'warning' that your loathing of certain aspects of Apple might, if not quite leading to you 'becoming what you hate', still end up somewhere unsatisfactory as a result.

Maybe a fair few of us have from time to time been tempted to have a break from the computer & mobile forums as a result of the tensions and rows that bubble up here. But we all have a shared enjoyment of technology, and many of the disagreements that result seem kind of unavoidable side-effects of this.

Lets unite and piss on Windows 8  Or conspire to write a cross-platform u75 app that does all sorts of things.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 3, 2012)

perhaps Windows 8 ( and associations) will be the Star Child - uniting us all - bringing peace and harmony to these troubled tech threads.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Im not betting my life on anything, but at this point Id be more surprised if a mini ipad doesnt come out before the end of the year than I will if one does.
> 
> Whilst I can appreciate why people would not believe the rumours, especially longer ago when they were vaguer, I've never really understood why you were quite so certain there would not be an iPad mini.


Not to repeat myself on the subject too much, but basically I don't think that producing a 7" tablet in apparent imitation of other companies is at all the sort of thing Apple is likely to do as a company - as well as IMO it being a bad idea anyway (both because I think the 7" size is neither fish nor fowl and also because hardware fragmentation messes with developers). I'm not _quite_ as sure that they won't do it now as I used to be given the leadership change, but I still think it is outside of what I expect from Apple's business strategy.

Steve Jobs' comments have no real influence on me, he changed his mind all the time and he's also dead.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 3, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not to repeat myself on the subject too much, but basically I don't think that producing a 7" tablet in apparent imitation of other companies is at all the sort of thing Apple is likely to do as a company - as well as IMO it being a bad idea anyway (both because I think the 7" size is neither fish nor fowl and also because hardware fragmentation messes with developers). I'm not _quite_ as sure that they won't do it now as I used to be given the leadership change, but I still think it is outside of what I expect from Apple's business strategy.
> 
> Steve Jobs' comments have no real influence on me, he changed his mind all the time and he's also dead.


It must have been very disappointing to some apple 'fanbois' when on the third day he didn't rise again.


----------



## elbows (Oct 3, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not to repeat myself on the subject too much, but basically I don't think that producing a 7" tablet in apparent imitation of other companies is at all the sort of thing Apple is likely to do as a company - as well as IMO it being a bad idea anyway (both because I think the 7" size is neither fish nor fowl and also because hardware fragmentation messes with developers). I'm not _quite_ as sure that they won't do it now as I used to be given the leadership change, but I still think it is outside of what I expect from Apple's business strategy.
> 
> Steve Jobs' comments have no real influence on me, he changed his mind all the time and he's also dead.


 
Ta for the explanation. I suppose I just started off with a slightly different impression of how much Apple are prepared to imitate if conditions dictate such a move to be sensible. But I know what you mean, they certainly dont like to be seen to be simply following the pack when it comes to new product categories. But I just think this may have come across too strongly this century just because they were lucky & shrewd enough not to have to imitate too much. And as they very much feel like they invented and should 'own' the whole 'quite good multitouch device' space, it seems likely to me that they'l want to have their own offerings in every segment of multitouch devices.

As for Steve Jobs comments, I agree, and thats one of the main reasons that the pundits endless 'search for signs of Apple doing something Jobs would never have allowed' drives me slightly up the wall.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Fair enough, and I can appreciate how tedious a lot of this stuff is if you have to pay attention to it all on a daily basis.



It really isn't that bad, youlearn to not get so emotionally invested and filter the truly awful examples of bias.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not to repeat myself on the subject too much, but basically I don't think that producing a 7" tablet in apparent imitation of other companies is at all the sort of thing Apple is likely to do as a company - as well as IMO it being a bad idea anyway (both because I think the 7" size is neither fish nor fowl and also because hardware fragmentation messes with developers).


I have to say that I really like the 7" size for tablets. It's a perfect format for some things and is far more suited to some tasks than a 10" tablet (and vice versa, of course).

I bought my Nexus on a whim and expected to soon regret it, but I still use it every single day and it fits a useful niche. I'm not saying that it's going to work for Apple mind, but the 7" format can be genuinely useful.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not to repeat myself on the subject too much, but basically I don't think that producing a 7" tablet in apparent imitation of other companies is at all the sort of thing Apple is likely to do as a company - as well as IMO it being a bad idea anyway (both because I think the 7" size is neither fish nor fowl and also because hardware fragmentation messes with developers). I'm not _quite_ as sure that they won't do it now as I used to be given the leadership change, but I still think it is outside of what I expect from Apple's business strategy.
> 
> Steve Jobs' comments have no real influence on me, he changed his mind all the time and he's also dead.


 
They always iterate down, they'll make a mini iPad.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 4, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They always iterate down, they'll make a mini iPad.


 
Iphone 6?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 4, 2012)

if they do, it'll be a right pain in the arse for iPad developers.  

Getting fully fledged iPad apps to work on the smaller screen will be an issue.  It will only run iPhone apps which can be expanded unless the screen is some insane pixel density and they can make it fit. On this simple fact alone, I'd not make one. You're not really going to sell more and the cost of making two, probably make it less than worthwhile.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 4, 2012)

ipad apps already run on a 1024x768 screen. If they've used the standard iOS interface widgets and gone by Apple's HIG, then the interface will be just as usable as the iphone's. I suspect devs will be able to offer mini-specific build, but the vast majority of existing ipad apps should work just fine.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

It would be very unApple-like to launch a (probably) more expensive tablet with a (probably) much lower res screen than its competitors and have the thing burdened with their awful maps. I've no doubt legions of Apple fans will buy it anyway, but it would sure seem like an odd move to me, given Apple's traditional high standards.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 4, 2012)

Sunray said:


> if they do, it'll be a right pain in the arse for iPad developers.
> 
> Getting fully fledged iPad apps to work on the smaller screen will be an issue.  It will only run iPhone apps which can be expanded unless the screen is some insane pixel density and they can make it fit. On this simple fact alone, I'd not make one. You're not really going to sell more and the cost of making two, probably make it less than worthwhile.



You may have a point about devs but I reckon they'd sell a few million of these, there's clearly a market for 7" tablets.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 5, 2012)

Crispy said:


> ipad apps already run on a 1024x768 screen. If they've used the standard iOS interface widgets and gone by Apple's HIG, then the interface will be just as usable as the iphone's. I suspect devs will be able to offer mini-specific build, but the vast majority of existing ipad apps should work just fine.


 
No they are running on 2048-by-1536, they will work if they go back to pre-retina, but that is one of the stand out features of the iPad and iPhone, using a Nexus 7 is like retro gaming, pixel heaven.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 5, 2012)

editor said:


> I have to say that I really like the 7" size for tablets. It's a perfect format for some things and is far more suited to some tasks than a 10" tablet (and vice versa, of course).
> 
> I bought my Nexus on a whim and expected to soon regret it, but I still use it every single day and it fits a useful niche. I'm not saying that it's going to work for Apple mind, but the 7" format can be genuinely useful.


 
I believe this to be true because of the weight of a 7" is much more within what I think is acceptable. Make the 10" the same weight as the 7" and the 7" suddenly isn't so attractive.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

Latest rumour from the Wall Street Journal is Apple have ten million of the things in production, ready for the holiday season...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm no longer sure that this isn't happening, but the Wall Street Journal is a shitty Murdoch rag that knows cock all about technology, for the record.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm no longer sure that this isn't happening, but the Wall Street Journal is a shitty Murdoch rag that knows cock all about technology, for the record.


I'll still be very surprised if Apple release this thing with a comparatively crappy 1024 x 768 screen res.

This speculative-tastic site offers some more wild guesses on that score: 



> Soneira notes that 4:3 aspect ratio screens are great for reading because they have the same aspect ratio as content on 8.5 x 11-inch documents, but that smaller 7 to 8-inch screens with 4:3 aspect ratios will be noticeably letterboxed with 16:9 content, with reduced image size.
> 
> Keeping the 768 pixel height in the iPad mini will allow apps written for 1024 x 768 to be displayed with letterbox borders as they are on the iPhone 5. Based on this, Soneira thinks that there are four possible resolutions for the iPad mini, with 1152 x 768 being the most likely:
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

For the record, here's the current most popular screen resolutions:



> *Screen Resolutions*
> 
> 
> 1 1366x768
> ...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2012)

It'll be at the same screen res if it happens at all, just smaller.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It'll be at the same screen res if it happens at all, just smaller.


Same screen res as what?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2012)

As the current one, or one of the previous models. This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm no longer sure that this isn't happening, but the Wall Street Journal is a shitty Murdoch rag that knows cock all about technology, for the record.



I'm more persuaded than ever, the market share Apple enjoys in tablets has eroded due to smaller screen size so they have to chase that segment.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

2048 x 1536 would be a pointlessly, battery-sappingly high resolution for a 7.85" tablet, while 1024 x 768 would be a disappointingly low res that would look markedly worse than almost all of its (probably far cheaper) rivals.

The only way they could get away with a screen res that crap would be to sell the iPad Mini for about $99.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'm more persuaded than ever, the market share Apple enjoys in tablets has eroded due to smaller screen size so they have to chase that segment.


That's the absolutely last reason that Apple ever do anything ever.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2012)

editor said:


> 2048 x 1536 would be a pointlessly, battery-sappingly high resolution for a 7.85" tablet, while 1024 x 768 would be a disappointingly low res that would look markedly worse than almost all of its (probably far cheaper) rivals.
> 
> The only way they could get away with a screen res that crap would be to sell the iPad for about $99.


Right. But what would they do? A 7" tablet with super-expensive 2048 res or bad 1024 res? Or a half-arsed in-between res that fucks with developers doing things with pixels? You see my point here?


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Right. But what would they do? A 7" tablet with super-expensive 2048 res or bad 1024 res? Or a half-arsed in-between res that fucks with developers doing things with pixels? You see my point here?


Oh, I do see your point, and this is where I agree with you that neither seems to make much sense.

Releasing a 7" tablet with a screen res as insanely high as 2048 x 1536 would be a truly pointless expense, and releasing one as low as 1024 x 768 is going to give them a noticeably inferior product, no matter how shiny the packaging.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's the absolutely last reason that Apple ever do anything ever.



Disagree, they've done it before. In fact it's part of their strategy to  cannibalise their own product lines it it keeps them making money (the iPhone exists because of this approach).


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Disagree, they've done it before. In fact it's part of their strategy to  cannibalise their own product lines it it keeps them making money (the iPhone exists because of this approach).


When have they done it before? Chasing a market segment from a non-existent position there? They've not.


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh, I do see your point, and this is where I agree with you that neither seems to make much sense.
> 
> Releasing a 7" tablet with a screen res as insanely high as 2048 x 1536 would be a truly pointless expense, and releasing one as low as 1024 x 768 is going to give them a noticeably inferior product, no matter how shiny the packaging.


 
As I did in the past, Im going to question exactly how noticeable it will be. They still sell a lot of iPad 2's which are 1024x768 but with a larger screen, and if I'm not mistaken you just bought a 10" android with a 1280x800 resolution.

I suppose if they want a comparable pixel density to the iPad 3, in order to justify an iPad mini's price compared to its competitors, they could go for 1536x1152.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> As I did in the past, Im going to question exactly how noticeable it will be. They still sell a lot of iPad 2's which are 1024x768 but with a larger screen, and if I'm not mistaken you just bought a 10" android with a 1280x800 resolution.
> 
> I suppose if they want a comparable pixel density to the iPad 3, in order to justify an iPad mini's price compared to its competitors, they could go for 1536x1152.


Apple's main selling point of the new iPad was its Retina display. All the big sellers in the 7" tablet market have screen resolution of 1280 x 800. I really can't see Apple introducing a bigger screen with a smaller resolution than all its rivals.

I'm not sure what my Transformer has to do with this but I bought that because of its built in keyboard, ultra-slim looks, laptop-like functionality and £399 price tag. I chose not to buy the high res version Infinity because I value battery life over a Retina-like display and didn't feel I could justify spending another £200. The screen res of the Nexus 7 was a critical factor in my purchase though.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> When have they done it before? Chasing a market segment from a non-existent position there? They've not.



I just told you, the iPhone. In fact you could argue the iPod mini was the same approach.

This is aside from the fact that at least one senior exec was lobbying Jobs about making a 7" on the basis that it was a market that was taking off and they needed to be in. Apple are a company like all others, they seek profit.


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm not sure what my Transformer has to do with this.


 
The point is that if such resolutions are still acceptable on larger tablets, they arent completely fatal to ones that are a few inches smaller.

I've already said that I'd prefer it to be a higher resolution, but if it isnt then I wont be totally gobsmacked.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

I reckon most consumers are more concerned with price than screen resolution tbh. The whole debate around it seems like a red herring so when it comes out with anything less than pure amazeballs it can be easily written off...


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> The point is that if such resolutions are still acceptable on larger tablets, they arent completely fatal to ones that are a few inches smaller.


But it will surely be seen as a curious, backwards kind of move for a company whose recent marketing and upgrades have all been about the increased screen resolution over their rivals (new iPad, iPhone5, Touch, new MacBook).

_"And here's our new iPad Mini.. with a screen res looking like it was released in 2011..."_

Doesn't seem like Apple's style to me, unless they're virtually giving the things away - and even then I'm not so sure.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Oct 9, 2012)

Maybe they've lowered their standards, I mean, look at Apple Maps.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Maybe they've lowered their standards, I mean, look at Apple Maps.


Maps are the one area where you can really see the difference with a higher res screen. But maybe with Apple Maps it's a case of 'less is best'


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Maybe they've lowered their standards, I mean, look at Apple Maps.


 
The iPod mini was a cut down iPod and did very well. I really think people obsessing over the specs are missing the point, Apple themselves tend to not push in that direction for obvious reasons.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 9, 2012)

I really can't see it running full-fat iOS6 and staying cheap.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I really can't see it running full-fat iOS6 and staying cheap.


 
Why not?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I really can't see it running full-fat iOS6 and staying cheap.


There is some evidence that the internals could be the same as the ipad 2, which does just fine with iOS 6. Not particularly conclusive right now, but if they can sell a retina 10" at $399, then a non-retina 7.85" (smaller battery means lower resolution helps) could easily compete with Android on price while maintaining an Apple-friendly profit margin.

If the rumours have any truth to them, we'll know for sure soon anyway.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 9, 2012)

A5 chip


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> A5 chip


 
The new touch runs the A5, hell the 3GS apparently can run most of iOS6 too so not sure really...I guess we'll see in a couple of weeks?


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 9, 2012)

Did Siri make it to the iPad 2?

Yep, we'll find out soon enough


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I really can't see it running full-fat iOS6 and staying cheap.


 
It wont be cheap, the new iPod Touch starts from £249 which probably gives us a clue.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Did Siri make it to the iPad 2?
> 
> Yep, we'll find out soon enough


 
Nope and yet the 4S which has an A5 chip has Siri as its main selling point. Odd...


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

They only just added Siri to the iPad 3, I somehow dont expect to see it on older models.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> It wont be cheap, the new iPod Touch starts from £249 which probably gives us a clue.


That price point was almost enough to convince me an iPad mini wasn't going to happen  and that's what got me thinking perhaps the mini would have a lower speck than the touch but be in the same price bracket.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 9, 2012)

I really like Siri on my iPad 3


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> That price point was almost enough to convince me an iPad mini wasn't going to happen


 
Same here, I probably went on about it here at the time. It certainly lowers my confidence that I have the slightest idea whats going to be announced, if anything


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I really like Siri on my iPad 3


 
I keep forgetting it's there tbh...


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

Hmm it just occurred to me that the £249 ipod touch has 32GB capacity. If the base model of ipad mini has far less memory than that, is 1024x768 etc then I suppose its possible to imagine the mini costing less than the 32gb new ipod touch.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> Hmm it just occurred to me that the £249 ipod touch has 32GB capacity. If the base model of ipad mini has far less memory than that, is 1024x768 etc then I suppose its possible to imagine the mini costing less than the 32gb new ipod touch.


 
£199 for 16gb and wifi only?


----------



## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

Perhaps, hell I dont know. I suppose I dont even rule out them doing an 8GB version even though it sounds silly, so Im probably not the best person to be speculating about the details!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> Perhaps, hell I dont know. I suppose I dont even rule out them doing an 8GB version even though it sounds silly, so Im probably not the best person to be speculating about the details!


 
Well the title of this thread includes wild speculations so knock yourself out.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2012)

If this survey is anything to go by, there's precious little interest in an iPad mini.




> *Survey suggests iPad mini is the least-desired big-name Apple product launching this year*
> The iPad mini sounds like it’s going to be a great tablet, but the question is will consumers care? A new survey conducted by deal aggregation site TechBargains.com suggests that the answer on the whole is “No.” TechBargains conducted an online survey of 1,332 users in August and found that only 18% planned to buy the iPad mini while 50% said they were uninterested.
> 
> For comparison, 45% of readers in the survey said they planned to buy the iPhone 5 when it came out, so it’s not as though the sample group is comprised of anti-Apple (AAPL) readers. TechBargains speculates that interest in the smaller tablet is so low because Apple fans already feel satisfied with the iPhone and the original iPad models, and don’t see the need for a 7.85-inch tablet
> http://www.bgr.com/2012/10/10/ipad-mini-survey-most-users-uninterested/


The biggest item consumers said they wanted on that survey was a USB port on the Mini. I think they're going to be disappointed on that score.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 10, 2012)

There's bound to be little anticipation towards a product we know nothing about. 

eta, example: I didn't think I'd be interested in the new iPod touch until it came out, despite already having one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2012)

I don't think there's much point in a 7-8" iPad either. Though everyone probably knew that. Just thought I'd reiterate.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 10, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> There's bound to be little anticipation towards a product we know nothing about.
> 
> eta, example: I didn't think I'd be interested in the new iPod touch until it came out, despite already having one.


 
I did wonder if this had as much value as polling people two years out from an election on who they're going to vote for tbh...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 10, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think there's much point in a 7-8" iPad either. Though everyone probably knew that. Just thought I'd reiterate.


 
I'm a little taken back FM, it's the first time I've read you saying that.


----------



## peterkro (Oct 10, 2012)

Since Apple have apparently 10 million in production this could be their biggest fuck-up ever,personally I think the kids market is what they are aiming at.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I have loads of illustrated textbooks for which they iPad3 is perfect, so I really can't see myself going for the iPad mini.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> There's bound to be little anticipation towards a product we know nothing about.
> 
> eta, example: I didn't think I'd be interested in the new iPod touch until it came out, despite already having one.


An upgraded Touch was a pretty solidly good move though based in existing data. The Touch was hugely under-appreciated in the gadget press, being seen as a poor man's iPhone, but actually very popular and remains so.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 10, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Since Apple have apparently 10 million in production this could be their biggest fuck-up ever,personally I think the kids market is what they are aiming at.


 
Well that's not proven but yeah if true it would be. Either that or this poll will be shown to lack value.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 10, 2012)

editor said:


> If this survey is anything to go by, there's precious little interest in an iPad mini.
> 
> 
> The biggest item consumers said they wanted on that survey was a USB port on the Mini. I think they're going to be disappointed on that score.


Not sure how accurate these stats are, but this site ('AAPL investors') claims to provide quarterly sales figures for iPods, iPads and iPhones.

Over the last couple of years, it looks like iPads have consistently sold considerably less than iPhones, swinging between about 30% and 66%. Overall, about 37% as many iPads were sold as iPhones last year (or in the final year of their figures). In the year before that, about 48%. Over both years, about 44% as many iPads were sold as iPhones (I'm rounding, hence the 'about').

The data you're quoting suggests that only 40% as many people expressed an interest in the iPad mini as expressed an interest in the iPhone 5.

That's not out of line with iPad sales. Certainly not over the last 4 quarters that AAPL investors provide data for.

I mean, obv it's not a ringing endorsement. But, again, looking at the sales data on that link, neither the iPhone nor the iPad took off - at all - in year one. Both took off (more than doubling their sales, and sustaining that increased level of sales) with the release of the second gen / in or around the 5th quarter.

That certainly tallies with my recollection of thinking 'the fuck is this for?' with the iPad 1, and thinking 'ooo, I can do shit with this' by the time the 2nd had arrived.

But, anyway. Long story short, the survey data you quoted may not be as damning as it first appears. Comparing it with an iPhone is arguably a bit of an iffy comparison to begin with. And - again, using perhaps-limited stats - the levels of interest aren't that different from sales figures for iPhones / current iPads.

e2a: data:







Figures in thousands of unit sales, again drawing data from the AAPL investors site.

Rows 1-8 = last 8 quarters. I have a feeling they might be in reverse chronological order, though, which might mean that I've got 'last year' and 'the year before' back to front.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2012)

The poll is probably bollocks, tbh. They often are when it comes to asking people what they're going to buy.


----------



## elbows (Oct 11, 2012)

Well I guess one part of the rumour died yesterday, no media invites issued.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2012)

elbows said:


> Well I guess one part of the rumour died yesterday, no media invites issued.


Don't worry. There'll be another pile of made up stories, clueless guesses and wild rumours coming right up.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 11, 2012)

elbows said:


> Well I guess one part of the rumour died yesterday, no media invites issued.



There's been some funny fake invites though...


----------



## peterkro (Oct 12, 2012)

New rumour iPad mini Oct 23rd.The great Swiss clock IP ripoff case put to bed,Apple has been given licence to use,amount of cash involved not revealed.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 12, 2012)

Never saw anything about the clock settlement, where did you read this?


----------



## peterkro (Oct 12, 2012)

Macrumors front page.





Kid_Eternity said:


> Never saw anything about the clock settlement, where did you read this?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 12, 2012)

Ah yeah just saw...be interested to know how much it cost them!


----------



## Crispy (Oct 12, 2012)

http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/10/12/apples-rumored-oct-23-ipad-mini-event/

Note To Editor: A "yep" from Jim Dalrymple is as good a confirmation as you'll ever get. He's confirmed all of apple's product announcements for the last year ahead of time  with the same "yep".


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 12, 2012)

Yeah and ATD are another that tends to be well connected too. Interesting timing, isn't the new iTunes meant to be out the end of October too?


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

Well timed to distract from the Windows 8 & Surface launch.

Yeah, dont bet against Jack Dairynipple.


----------



## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yeah and ATD are another that tends to be well connected too. Interesting timing, isn't the new iTunes meant to be out the end of October too?


 
I think when they announced the new iTunes they just said 'coming in October'.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/10/12/apples-rumored-oct-23-ipad-mini-event/
> 
> Note To Editor: A "yep" from Jim Dalrymple is as good a confirmation as you'll ever get. He's confirmed all of apple's product announcements for the last year ahead of time with the same "yep".


Great. I'll be glad when it's finally done.

For what it's worth, I think Apple have really lost their mojo recently and I expect this thing to be as underwhelming as the iPhone5.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Note To Editor: A "yep" from Jim Dalrymple is as good a confirmation as you'll ever get. He's confirmed all of apple's product announcements for the last year ahead of time with the same "yep".


Oh, will there be any hat-chomping offered on this matter?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> Well timed to distract from the Windows 8 & Surface launch.
> 
> Yeah, dont bet against Jack Dairynipple.



Three days before MS' launch, two days before Apple's earnings call. MS press team have their work cut out for them that week if this iPad mini event is true...


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

editor said:


> For what it's worth, I think Apple have really lost their mojo recently and I expect this thing to be as underwhelming as the iPhone5.


 
At the best of times you only conceded they had any mojo in the first place through gritted teeth, so no I will not look to you to guide us through apples demise. They dropped the ball hugely with maps, but everything else continues much as before. The new iphone is no more underwhelming than most previous releases, and a lot of the sense of 'lost mojo' stems from product maturity. They are still laughing all the way to the bank.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> At the best of times you only conceded they had any mojo in the first place through gritted teeth


That's really not true. I've always praised their products here. It's just the company's business practices I'm not so keen on.

And I'd disagree with you about the iPhone 5 too. Look through my posts and I've always said that whatever was the current iPhone available it was easily one of the best phones money can buy. I really don't think that's the case with the iPhone 5. even more so considering the shit maps. 

Maps are a huge part of a tablet's usefulness, so the iPad Mini is already off to a bad start IMO.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2012)

If anybody feels disappointed with the performance of the new Maps app on their iPad 3, I am very willing to help them out by swapping it for my iPad 1, which still has Google Maps on it. I'll only charge for postage.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

The point I was making is that the iPhone 5 is clearly a very very good phone, but their previous new releases have always gone straight on the top of just about every 'best Phone' list. That's not the case with this one, and that's unusual.

It's not even second in TechRadar's list.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> I think when they announced the new iTunes they just said 'coming in October'.



Yeah you're right, it's on their website saying exactly that.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

editor said:


> The point I was making is that the iPhone 5 is clearly a very very good phone, but their previous new releases have always gone straight on the top of just about every 'best Phone' list. That's not the case with this one, and that's unusual.
> 
> It's not even second in TechRadar's list.


 
I put that down the competition getting its act together. Apple raised the smartphone bar in some key ways (whilst lowering it in others) and now others have caught up and stayed up, and I really dont expect Apple to be able to raise their game much higher in response. I've asked before 'whats left to add to smartphones?' Its going to be hard to dazzle anyone, people will be able to make nice smartphones with incremental improvements in some areas but to dazzle people is a tall order.

If being head & shoulders above the competition is whats being described as Apples mojo then yes, they rather inevitably lost that in some sectors. I'm glad they did, as I always wanted decent competition and choice. I'm still waiting for someone else to really pull it off for larger tablets. As for smaller tablets, assuming the ipad mini is real then I think it will achieve reasonable market share, sell quite well, etc, but may not seem like a phenomenon since there are already other tablets being successful in this space.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> If being head & shoulders above the competition is whats being described as Apples mojo then yes, they rather inevitably lost that in some sectors.


I think it's more a case of iPhone struggling to keep up now, tbh. Normally when a new iPhone comes out it at least manages parity with the very best phones around, but I'm not sure the iPhone5 even manages that now.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> I put that down the competition getting its act together. Apple raised the smartphone bar in some key ways (whilst lowering it in others) and now others have caught up and stayed up, and I really dont expect Apple to be able to raise their game much higher in response. I've asked before 'whats left to add to smartphones?' Its going to be hard to dazzle anyone, people will be able to make nice smartphones with incremental improvements in some areas but to dazzle people is a tall order.
> 
> If being head & shoulders above the competition is whats being described as Apples mojo then yes, they rather inevitably lost that in some sectors. I'm glad they did, as I always wanted decent competition and choice. I'm still waiting for someone else to really pull it off for larger tablets. As for smaller tablets, assuming the ipad mini is real then I think it will achieve reasonable market share, sell quite well, etc, but may not seem like a phenomenon since there are already other tablets being successful in this space.



Has Apple lost their mojo (whatever that means) or is it that any one that reads every single scrap of tech info isn't going to be impressed with any product release?


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2012)

"What is the best phone?" isn't really a very useful question these days anyway. Things just aren't comparable to when these gadget blogs started, and really, the only difference between phones was the hardware. Questions like "what is the best Android phone?" are more use, though the answer is usually quite obvious anyway, or at least has a small number of possibilities... "what is the best Android phone in price category £X to £Y?" is most useful.


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## maldwyn (Oct 12, 2012)

Something sunray mentioned upthread that caught my eye was his assertion that the OS was the deciding factor for him, perhaps we've already reached the mechanical limits of these devices.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

editor said:


> I think it's more a case of iPhone struggling to keep up now, tbh. Normally when a new iPhone comes out it at least manages parity with the very best phones around, but I'm not sure the iPhone5 even manages that now.


 
I can see why that may be the case for some people, maybe lots of people. Personally I feel the opposite, I switched to android in great part because the iPhone 4 & 4S didnt impress me enough, I didnt like the physical design much. But I quite like the iphone 5 and after 11 months with android I cant say that platform has won my loyalty, very far from it.


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## Kanda (Oct 15, 2012)

Starting at £200 for an 8GB according to this... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/15/ipad_mini_price/


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## mattie (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm not sure if simply changing form factor actually means the device addresses fundamentally different needs.

I'd like something ruggedised (apologies for horrible term) with good battery life (both phone and tablet), and would happily sacrifice screen snazziness for that.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Starting at £200 for an 8GB according to this... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/15/ipad_mini_price/


 
Makes it very competitively priced against Android devices that's for sure...


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Makes it very competitively priced against Android devices that's for sure...


Not really. The 8GB Nexus is £41 cheaper and that's expected to be replaced by the 16GB model for the same price.  The Kindle Fire HD with double the memory (16GB) is just £159 too.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 15, 2012)

Still a lot closer in price then buying a full size ipad and the Apple brand does mean a lot to some people.


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## Crispy (Oct 15, 2012)

£200 for the basic model will shift a lot of them for christmas, if that's true.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Still a lot closer in price then buying a full size ipad and the Apple brand does mean a lot to some people.


Sure, but I imagine their rivals will be quick to point out Apple's rather awful maps and the fact that their equally capable tablets are substantially cheaper.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

Crispy said:


> £200 for the basic model will shift aof them for christmas, if that's true.


Oh, they'll shift them alright.


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## sim667 (Oct 15, 2012)

Depending on the specs I could be tempted by one instead of the ipad 3 im after (still havent sold me fecking ipad 1 )

I bet it wont have facetime etc.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 15, 2012)

iPad mini vs Nexus 7, yeah!

I for one cannot wait for the thrilling debate about which is best.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Sure, but I imagine their rivals will be quick to point out Apple's rather awful maps and the fact that their equally capable tablets are substantially cheaper.


 
I'm guessing for many that won't be a deal breaker. In fact do many people use tablets as a navigation device in the same way they use their phones for?

I'd feel a bit odd walking around with one in my hand or attached to my car windscreen.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2012)

Crispy said:


> £200 for the basic model will shift a lot of them for christmas, if that's true.



Yup.


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## peterkro (Oct 15, 2012)

I can see Apple maps is a fuck up,however having used it for the first time last week it's pretty fucking good for my use,it took Bath in it's stride which fucks Navigon every time.It doesn't however appear to be any good at picking up your destination if you detour off course something that Navigon is very good at.


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## maldwyn (Oct 15, 2012)

Apple is an aspirational brand - a £50 hike against brands that don't share the same high profile would be just within the bounds of acceptability to your average consumer.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Apple is an aspirational brand - a £50 hike against brands that don't share the same high profile would be just within the bounds of acceptability to your average consumer.


 
I reckon this is about right. I'd be surprised if this thing sells less than 5 million units by the end of the year. Interesting how everyone is pretty much certain it's coming now, no one's talking about it as a rumour it's just a question of price...and to a lesser extent specs.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2012)

Apparently this is Apple messing up and accidentally leaking the pricing on their website:


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 15, 2012)

£250? No thanks.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2012)

£250 would be cock all for a tablet. Seriously. The Fire and the Nexus are both subsidised out the arse and don't have the benefit of the ecosystem. This particular faked screenshot is probably too low.


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## elbows (Oct 15, 2012)

I can confirm that screenshot with the starting from £249 is real because I saw exactly the same thing myself on the day in question, when I went to look at new ipod touch prices when the store reopened. 

At the time I dont think I mentioned it, partly because I thought it may be a different kind of mistake, eg someone at Apple getting confused and using the price of the new iPod touch.

I have no idea what the actual price will be. £249 does not seem impossible given the premium Apple like to sell at. At £249 I think it will still sell, but it will leave a lot more breathing space for the cheaper alternatives. I suppose this is what we should expect from Apple really, I dont think anyone is predicting they will suddenly make their pricing seem like a total bargain. The likely unattractive pricing of 10" windows 8 tablets will go some way to not making a £249 starting price seem like its on a different and very loony planet, leaving android tablets in a price class of their own. Apple will probably be quite rude about android tablets, and try to taint that sector as being a bargain basement with a downside. I expect they may be unkind about android tablet app issues. Assuming Apple stick with an aspect ratio around 4:3 they may also go on a lot about screen issues when doing things like browsing, especially if this tablet turns out to be a little larger than 7".


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

Right. So Apple are suddenly making 'mistakes' and posting up unreleased products on their website by 'accident'?
Normally vast chunks of the site have to come down for the smallest upgrade so if this screengrab is real, then it has to be officially sanctioned by Apple. Still doesn't ring true to me, mind.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> £250 would be cock all for a tablet. Seriously. The Fire and the Nexus are both subsidised out the arse and don't have the benefit of the ecosystem. This particular faked screenshot is probably too low.


Well, it would still be nearly a £100 more than the Kindle HD and Nexus, both of which have received rave reviews and - apparently - great sales.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Well, it would still be nearly a £100 more than the Kindle HD and Nexus, both of which have received rave reviews and - apparently - great sales.


And are subsidised (or, allegedly, at cost for the Nexus) and don't have the ecosystem to add value, as I said.

£250 is cheaper than phones.


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## peterkro (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Right. So Apple are suddenly making 'mistakes' and posting up unreleased products on their website by 'accident'?
> Normally vast chunks of the site have to come down for the smallest upgrade so if this screengrab is real, then it has to be officially sanctioned by Apple. Still doesn't ring true to me, mind.


People have been looking at Apple for upcoming products for yonks,one of the best ones is product numbers in Beta software,they've not been wrong very often.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> And are subsidised (or, allegedly, cost for the Nexus) and don't have the ecosystem to add value.


I don't think customers give two hoots if the thing they're buying is supposedly subsidised or not. All they care about is the price, functionality and performance.

There's not as many apps for Android tablets - yet - but there's already no shortage of high quality ones to choose from. My Asus Transformer effectively replaces my laptop now. That's how good the apps are.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

peterkro said:


> People have been looking at Apple for upcoming products for yonks,one of the best ones is product numbers in Beta software,they've not been wrong very often.


Have they ever accidentally posted up a new product on their website before it's even been announced before?


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## elbows (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Right. So Apple are suddenly making 'mistakes' and posting up unreleased products on their website by 'accident'?
> Normally vast chunks of the site have to come down for the smallest upgrade so if this screengrab is real, then it has to be officially sanctioned by Apple. Still doesn't ring true to me, mind.


 
The screengrab was taken a good while back, after the store reopened after the iphone 5 announcement.  So it is not hard to imagine a mistake happening at that point. Someone may have randomly mucked up that data. Or made a mistake that was based on ipod touch pricing. Or the ipad mini was originally supposed to launch that day, but when it was delayed they forgot to change this one piece of data in the instructions for what changes to make to the UK site that day.

Take your pick, either way I'm pretty sure it was a mistake rather than a deliberate rumour-stoker, although I have to say the lengthy delay between when the incident occurred and when its receiving publicity may cause me to investigate the circumstances of this delay.


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## peterkro (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Have they ever accidentally posted up a new product on their website before it's even been announced before?


No they haven't, leaks generally come from subcontractors or accessory manufacturers or they are model numbers buried in code for existing products.Sure they lead devices with hints but generally are tight with products before release.


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## elbows (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Have they ever accidentally posted up a new product on their website before it's even been announced before?


 
They didnt post a new product though, just a starting from price that didnt match anything you got when clicking on the graphic. I dont know how long it took them to fix it.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2012)

elbows said:


> The screengrab was taken a good while back, after the store reopened after the iphone 5 announcement. So it is not hard to imagine a mistake happening at that point.


I'm not convinced. Why would they even have the price set so far ahead of release?

edit: wtf am I doing even bothering with another of these Apple non stories anyway? 
 at self


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## elbows (Oct 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm not convinced. Why would they even have the price set so far ahead of release?
> 
> edit: wtf am I doing even bothering with another of these Apple non stories anyway?
> at self


 
I've already outlined several possible different sorts of mistakes, only one of which would point to the £249 having anything to do with a mini ipad.

The only thing I'm sure of is that they made the mistake because I saw it myself.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2012)

elbows said:


> The screengrab was taken a good while back, after the store reopened after the iphone 5 announcement. So it is not hard to imagine a mistake happening at that point. Someone may have randomly mucked up that data. Or made a mistake that was based on ipod touch pricing. Or the ipad mini was originally supposed to launch that day, but when it was delayed they forgot to change this one piece of data in the instructions for what changes to make to the UK site that day.
> 
> Take your pick, either way I'm pretty sure it was a mistake rather than a deliberate rumour-stoker, although I have to say the lengthy delay between when the incident occurred and when its receiving publicity may cause me to investigate the circumstances of this delay.


 
Given how many things you have to change on every major product revision I can easily see how something like this slipped up. After all these years managing websites it's not unusual for the wrong number, a typo or even a whole quote to appear online when it shouldn't have...


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## mrs quoad (Oct 15, 2012)

The iPod touch starts at £249. 

Unless it's got considerably less impressive specs, it'd seem like an incredible decision to price a tablet more cheaply.

E2a: ah, ok, hadn't picked up that's a 32gb iPod.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

Event confirmed for next week with an invite with the words:

"We've got a little more to show you."

So, iPad mini then. 

Crispy, start dousing that hat in your favourite sauce.


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## Crispy (Oct 17, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Event confirmed for next week with an invite with the words:
> 
> "We've got a little more to show you."
> 
> ...


 
No, it's the other way round. My hat remains sauce free


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## Sunray (Oct 17, 2012)

I wonder what this will do to the 7" space? 
I am also wondering if this will be keeping its aspect ratio from the iPad or are they going to impose a new one on developers?


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## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I wonder what this will do to the 7" space?
> I am also wondering if this will be keeping its aspect ratio from the iPad or are they going to impose a new one on developers?


Well it's either going to have a screen resolution considerably lower than its cheaper rivals or it's a case of _fragmentation ahoy!_


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Well it's either going to have a screen resolution considerably lower than its cheaper rivals or it's a case of _fragmentation ahoy!_


They've got 3 4 resolutions*.

This - if different - would make it 4 5?


*iPod / iPhone <5, iPhone / iPod 5th gen, iPad <3, iPad 3.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

Also - would it be that surprising if it was an upscaled version of the 5's resolution / aspect ratio?

Doing so would make it a more 'coherent' piece of work, kinda confirming their thought that the 5's aspect ratio is 'right.'


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## Crispy (Oct 17, 2012)

I will get my hat sauce out for anything other than 4:3


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## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

I hope they stick to 4:3 aspect ratio. I will be less interested in the device if they dont, since I dont like surfing the net that much on the widescreen nexus 7.


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## Sunray (Oct 17, 2012)

I would like 2048x1536 retina display in 7", then all iPad apps work off the bat.


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## Crispy (Oct 17, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I would like 2048x1536 retina display in 7"


If that £250 price is to be believed, I'd be amazed if they manage it.


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## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I would like 2048x1536 retina display in 7", then all iPad apps work off the bat.


 Except it would be total overkill that would pointlessly push the price up and kill the battery.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If that £250 price is to be believed, I'd be amazed if they manage it.


Hat amazed?

e2a: didn't someone post something about the resolution of 20/20 vision at various distances wrt (I think) the 15" Macbook retina? How far would you have to be from the screen, before a 2048x1536 7" screen was beneficial to human eyes?


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## Crispy (Oct 17, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Hat amazed?


Nnnnnno. It's not outside the realms of possibility. Highly unlikely though, IMO.
As is anything in between, given the way that retina display is handled in iOS.
I am 90% convinced that the display will be 1024x768.


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## Sunray (Oct 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Except it would be total overkill that would pointlessly push the price up and kill the battery.


 
The pixel size of the screen isn't relevant to the power, its the back light. Obviously more switching costs, but that backlight is what hammers the battery. Don't forget the iPad goes on for ages, 10 or more hours constant or many many days if its not being used. Had one at my last work.

The retina display is one of the iPad's outstanding features, so it'd be a shame if the mini doesn't have one.


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## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm not sure I would go quite as far as 90% but it does seem to be the most likely by far.


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## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

Sunray said:


> The pixel size of the screen isn't relevant to the power, its the back light. Obviously more switching costs, but that backlight is what hammers the battery. Don't forget the iPad goes on for ages, 10 or more hours constant or many many days if its not being used. Had one at my last work.
> 
> The retina display is one of the iPad's outstanding features, so it'd be a shame if the mini doesn't have one.


 
You are correct to say that the backlight is a notable power drain.

However if we look at the complaints about the ipad 3, namely the additional weight & heat compared to the ipad 2, we get strong hints about the other issues. It puts a fair old strain on the GPU at times, so given the rumours that the ipad mini will be based on ipad2-class hardware, I'm not expecting a very high resolution. Certainly not expecting the same res as the ipad 3, although I havent completely ruled out some inbetween res like 1536x1152 even though this is somewhat unlikely for app dev reasons.


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## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

How can a higher res screen not draw more power when all those extra pixels means that the GPU has to work harder?
http://m.tomshardware.com/reviews/ipad-3-benchmark-retina-display,3157-3.html


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## Citizen66 (Oct 17, 2012)

So is this likely to be out for the Christmas market or not?


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> So is this likely to be out for the Christmas market or not?


I'd be tempted to eat Crispy's hat if it wasn't.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 17, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I'd be tempted to eat Crispy's hat if it wasn't.


 
Translates to?


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

Crispy said:


> No, it's the other way round. My hat remains sauce free



Ah ok, Fridgemagnet! Prepare to eat Crispy's hat!


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## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

It will certainly be out well before Christmas. There might be the usual stock level issues for a while but Im sure it will be ok as long as you dont leave it till the last minute.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> So is this likely to be out for the Christmas market or not?



Yes.


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2012)

Just spotted this thread.

I thought I already had an iPad mini (aka an iPod touch).
Maybe they'll re-brand it as iPod nano or something...


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## maldwyn (Oct 17, 2012)

iPad junior


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## Citizen66 (Oct 17, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yes.


 
Any ideas on price? Sort of promised my gf's daughter an ipad for christmas so this will be ideal. Although 400 is a bit excessive.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

8ball said:


> Just spotted this thread.
> 
> I thought I already had an iPad mini (aka an iPod touch).
> Maybe they'll re-brand it as iPod nano or something...


2"(?!) nano -> 4" ipod -> 7" mini -> 10" iPad!


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Any ideas on price? Sort of promised my gf's daughter an ipad for christmas so this will be ideal. Although 400 is a bit excessive.


£249 posted as 'leaked' earlier.

Which'd make good sense - iPads start - what? - £80-100 above that, and it'd be an 8gb model (apparently) which'd leave the latest £249ish iPod Touch some headroom (as it's something like 32gb starting model. And there're always the £170 last-models).


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> 2"(?!) nano -> 4" ipod -> 7" mini -> 10" iPad!


 
Yes, meant *iPad* nano in my original post.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

8ball said:


> Yes, meant *iPad* nano in my original post.


Oooo.

You've just got me wondering whether the mini will have the same decor as the recent iPod touches - pink, green, blue, fuscia, lilac, salmon, taupe...


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## tarannau (Oct 17, 2012)

Nah, the touch can stay in the iPod/iphone area - thinner, lighter devices that are far more pocketable.


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Oooo.


 
Was facepalming myself btw.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

8ball said:


> Was facepalming myself btw.


That's alright. My oooo was one of uncontained excitement.


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2012)

tarannau said:


> Nah, the touch can stay in the iPod/iphone area - thinner, lighter devices that are far more pocketable.


 
Yeah, is just that I had an iPod touch when the iPad came out and wondered why they just didn't call it an iPod Touch Macro or something - the first iPad seemed to have nothing going for it that the iPod touch couldn't do.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

tarannau said:


> Nah, the touch can stay in the iPod/iphone area - thinner, lighter devices that are far more pocketable.


You have to think that they're running out of vowels, though. There's only room for an iPed, iPud and iPid left atm.


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> You have to think that they're running out of vowels, though. There's only room for an iPed, iPud and iPid left atm.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Any ideas on price? Sort of promised my gf's daughter an ipad for christmas so this will be ideal. Although 400 is a bit excessive.



Apparently the latest rumour is it will be in the shops in the UK on Friday November 2nd.


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## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

I feel like ranting about resolution perceptions again.

The idea that 1024x768 is a crap resolution for a 7" tablet is out of whack give that people still seem to buy the ipad 2, and that the MS Surface RT isnt exactly dirt cheap, is inches bigger, and has a res of 1366x768.

If I put an ipad 2 next to an ipad 3 then the resolution difference is very notable. The difference between a nexus 7 and a theoretical 1024x768 ipad mini will be far less obvious.

By the way here is how Microsoft attempt to downplay the resolution difference between the Surface RT and the iPad 3:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57534066-75/microsoft-surface-beats-the-ipad-in-display-quality/

Its fine to bring up the other things that make a display look good, but its pretty obvious the MS man is stretching his point too far here, especially when they ask him why the Surface Pro will have a higher res.

However since we are on the subject of other things that make a display great, I have to say that I am no fan of the ghosting sometimes seen on both the android devices I own (Galaxy Nexus & Nexus 7).


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Apparently the latest rumour is it will be in the shops in the UK on Friday November 2nd.


Excellent. Whilst Artichoke is still distracted, and spending three days each week in France  

Having said that, reckon ill wait for no.2. My iPad should be dying by then. Can't justify it ATM! (And can't see the first one not leaving room for a decent upgraded 2, tbf.)


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 17, 2012)

If the resolution is different, won't installing established apps be problematic?


----------



## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> If the resolution is different, won't installing established apps be problematic?


 
Thats why the most prevalent assumption is that it will have the same 1024x768 res as the iPad 1 & 2.

Another reason for the ipad mini to have this resolution - so they have an obvious feature to improve upon in future versions of the product! Which will probably tie in nicely with future improvements to chip performance so they can eventually offer a retina ipad mini without the downsides that would likely exist if they offered it today.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

elbows said:


> I feel like ranting about resolution perceptions again.
> 
> The idea that 1024x768 is a crap resolution for a 7" tablet is out of whack give that people still seem to buy the ipad 2, and that the MS Surface RT isnt exactly dirt cheap, is inches bigger, and has a res of 1366x768.
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps we need a separate 'What's the best resolution and screen size for a tablet' thread seeing as it's a topic that comes up again and again and again on every tablet thread?


----------



## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Perhaps we need a separate 'What's the best resolution and screen size for a tablet' thread seeing as it's a topic that comes up again and again and again on every tablet thread?


 
I wouldnt bother, especially as its usually just me and editor arguing about it on most threads. The ipad mini thread is the first time I can recall the resolution debate getting wider traction. Hell it doesnt even come up much on the Surface RT/Windows 8 tablet threads despite my fairly frequent moaning about it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

elbows said:


> I wouldnt bother, especially as its usually just me and editor arguing about it on most threads.



Well done for spotting the point. Bad luck for missing the sarcasm.


----------



## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

I tell you what, I'll stick to being a bore by going on and on about my pet subjects, you stick to starting new threads that deplete the worlds stocks of exclamation marks.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

elbows said:


> I feel like ranting about resolution perceptions again.
> 
> The idea that 1024x768 is a crap resolution for a 7" tablet is out of whack give that people still seem to buy the ipad 2, and that the MS Surface RT isnt exactly dirt cheap, is inches bigger, and has a res of 1366x768.


Not crap. Just noticeably worse than all its cheaper rivals.

It's worth pointing out seeing as all of Apple's recent launches have made a huge deal of the superior screen res on their devices.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 17, 2012)

The iPad tablet displays are one of the headline features of the iPad and reviews have nothing but praise for it.  Apple would be unwise to dilute what they have achieved and the difference between the Mini and the iPad would be stark.  Perhaps this is to ensure there is some clear water between them.

I look forward to the presentation to see what Apple have actually done.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

elbows said:


> It will certainly be out well before Christmas. There might be the usual stock level issues for a while but Im sure it will be ok as long as you dont leave it till the last minute.


I'm sure the workers in the factories will be looking forward to the usual 'encouragements' to ensure that the latest Apple gadget gets shipped in time for their big launch.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 17, 2012)

It would be funny if after all the hype this event is to actually launch a new Mac Mini, not a mini iPad


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It would be funny if after all the hype this event is to actually launch a new Mac Mini, not a mini iPad



Totally, that'd be fucking hilarious!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2012)

I'd laugh Crispy's hat off.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 17, 2012)

Theres been parts leaks and everything now. iPad mini is real. Hat real.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2012)

Sorry to mention ResGate again, but this was the article in was trying to find earlier that explains it all rather well:
http://www.cultofmac.com/168509/why...ion-of-those-new-retina-display-macs-feature/


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Not crap. Just noticeably worse than all its cheaper rivals.
> 
> It's worth pointing out seeing as all of Apple's recent launches have made a huge deal of the superior screen res on their devices.


 
Try asking most of it's target market about resolution and about what a retina display involves and see the blanks you get. With the right marketing spin that apple are so good at, most potential buyers won't give a fuck.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2012)

I've no doubt Apple will do a remarkable job of 'inventing' the smaller tablet form factor.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 18, 2012)

Yup...my work mates are a prime example of a potential market for these things, totally non IT savvy (we even don't have access to a pc at work, they own netbooks), don't get paid much and the only tablet they have heard of is an ipad.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 18, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Try asking most of it's target market about resolution and about what a retina display involves and see the blanks you get. With the right marketing spin that apple are so good at, most potential buyers won't give a fuck.



Yep think there's a lot to this...


----------



## Sunray (Oct 18, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Try asking most of it's target market about resolution and about what a retina display involves and see the blanks you get. With the right marketing spin that apple are so good at, most potential buyers won't give a fuck.


 
This is very true, one of the features you don't really noticed how good it is until you go back to something that doesn't have it and this image pops into my head...


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 18, 2012)

Sunray said:


> This is very true, one of the features you don't really noticed how good it is until you go back to something that doesn't have it and this image pops into my head...


This is why shit like Swords and Sworcery pisses me *right* off.

"Oh, LOOK how we can make your >£400 tablet look *just* like it's got all the capacities of a low-end console from the mid-1980s. GO US."

Only it's niche and retro, so OF COURSE we've got to charge five fucking pounds for this complete travesty of a pot of lukewarm piss.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 18, 2012)

Sunray said:


> This is very true, one of the features you don't really noticed how good it is until you go back to something that doesn't have it and this image pops into my head...


 
Or when you visit websites that still optimise their images as if it's 1998 and we're all on dial up...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 19, 2012)

You are well bitter about that game.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

Eh?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 19, 2012)

not you obviously


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

Oh right...er ok.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 19, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> This is why shit like Swords and Sworcery pisses me *right* off.
> 
> "Oh, LOOK how we can make your >£400 tablet look *just* like it's got all the capacities of a low-end console from the mid-1980s. GO US."
> 
> Only it's niche and retro, so OF COURSE we've got to charge five fucking pounds for this complete travesty of a pot of lukewarm piss.


 
Eh, that was a deliberate artistic decision as it was probably done by a few people and therefore a lot cheaper and if you do it well, can look cool. Graphics do not make a game. IGN gave the PC version 90 which put its into greatness.

Not everything in that game has 8bit type graphics either, giving them a quality, without the 8 bit would be hard to replicate.






Looks amazing...


----------



## Crispy (Oct 19, 2012)

sworcery is fantastic. the mood and music and graphics are sublime. quoad, you don't know shit


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2012)

Do people really think that the resolution of this thing is in any way important?

The target market won't give a shit. It's an iPad. For cheap. That's all that matters.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Do people really think that the resolution of this thing is in any way important?
> 
> The target market won't give a shit. It's an iPad. For cheap. That's all that matters.



Agreed, it's a red herring debate.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2012)

I'd also go so far as to say that any other device on the market is a red herring. People won't be choosing between this and a Nexus. They'll be choosing between an iPad or an iPad. Nothing else exists, iPad is to tablet as Hoover is to vacuum cleaner.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd also go so far as to say that any other device on the market is a red herring. People won't be choosing between this and a Nexus. They'll be choosing between an iPad or an iPad. Nothing else exists, iPad is to tablet as Hoover is to vacuum cleaner.


Fuck me, the Reality Distortion Field has truly engulfed you. The thing hasn't even been announced yet and you've no idea how much it will cost and yet you're making sweeping statements like the above.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 19, 2012)




----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

Ah, the double bluff. Nice one.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Fuck me, the Reality Distortion Field has truly engulfed you. The thing hasn't even been announced yet and you've no idea how much it will cost and yet you're making sweeping statements like the above.


It will cost less than a big one. That's all you need to know.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2012)

As for the reality field bit - come on, you know I'm not exactly an apple fanboi...


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It will cost less than a big one. That's all you need to know.


I'm not a fanboy. I buy gadgets based on their functionality, appearance, price, ergonomics and ability to suit my needs rather than the logo on the back.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> As for the reality field bit - come on, you know I'm not exactly an apple fanboi...


You're sure sounding like one right now - but let's see if Nexus 7/Kindle HD sales go to zero after the hallowed iPad Mini is launched, as you suggest.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> You're sure sounding like one right now - but let's see if Nexus sales go to zero after the hallowed iPad Mini is launched, as you suggest.


Nexus sales won't he affected. Coz the bulk of the people that will buy an iPad won't have heard of it.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Nexus sales won't he affected. Coz the bulk of the people that will buy an iPad won't have heard of it.


Everyone. Must. Buy. Apple. "Nothing else exists."


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Everyone. Must. Buy. Apple. "Nothing else exists."


 
That's just the way it goes. Look at iPods and mp3 players.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> That's just the way it goes. Look at iPods and mp3 players.


And smartphones. Oh, hang on...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd also go so far as to say that any other device on the market is a red herring. People won't be choosing between this and a Nexus. They'll be choosing between an iPad or an iPad. Nothing else exists, iPad is to tablet as Hoover is to vacuum cleaner.



I think you're right, the iPad market is following the iPod one not the smartphone one from what I can tell...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> That's just the way it goes. Look at iPods and mp3 players.



This. IMO you need to view the tablet market like the mp3 market not the phone market.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I think you're right, the iPad market is following the iPod one not the smartphone one from what I can tell...


 
There is definitly a lot of take up of iPads in the business market too. ime. We got a Galaxy Tab 10" and iPads, and an el-cheapo Android tablet to assess. Ended up buying iPads in bulk.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> There is definitly a lot of take up of iPads in the business market too. ime. We got a Galaxy Tab 10" and iPads, and an el-cheapo Android tablet to assess. Ended up buying iPads in bulk.



Indeed, my former CEO was asking about them recently, he looked very blank when I mentioned other tablets that might be better to have (I was pushing him toward Android as he has an Android phone), for him and the CEO's he deals with tablets are iPads and iPads are tablet. Nothing else gets a look in...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Indeed, my former CEO was asking about them recently, he looked very blank when I mentioned other tablets that might be better to have (I was pushing him toward Android as he has an Android phone), for him and the CEO's he deals with tablets are iPads and iPads are tablet. Nothing else gets a look in...


 
Same with us - lots of non tech-savvy senior management types think iPad and tablet computer are synonymous (except they're probably not aware of the second term - they're just aware of the word 'iPad'). If you mentioned something else to them a light would probably just come on in their head saying 'some kind of cheap iPad imitation that I've never heard of'.

Says more about the success of Apple marketing and brand/image control than their technology, though.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

People used to say the same about every smartphone ("Oh, is that an iPhone?") and now Android outsells Apple by a massive margin.
Android tablets will overtake iPads eventually, sure as eggs is eggs.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> People used to say the same about every smartphone ("Oh, is that an iPhone?") and now Android outsells Apple by a massive margin.
> Android tablets will overtake iPads eventually, sure as eggs is eggs.


 
Maybe. Not sure if they will for business use.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> People used to say the same about every smartphone ("Oh, is that an iPhone?").
> Android tablets will overtake iPads eventually, sure as eggs is eggs.


 
I was aware of smartphones before the iPhone, the iPhone just seemed to be the 'Rolls Royce' of the genre (though more for the 'smart' than the 'phone'). 

Don't know enough about tablets to comment - the Android phones seem to be a mixed bag from what I've seen, as you'd expect since it's an OS rather than a single company.  Never had a go with an Android tablet, and only a brief play with a mate's iPad, which seems like an unnecessarily massive version of my iPod touch, frankly. 

Though good for making your costume if you want to be a Teletubby with an authentic video screen.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Maybe. Not sure if they will for business use.


They'll be on Windows 8. Possibly.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> They'll be on Windows 8. Possibly.


 
I imagine there'll be a fight between formats on different battlegrounds.

In my line of work (clinical tech) it's moving iPad-wards at the moment, I would guess the same will happen in the 'creative industries', broadly speaking, and I could easily imagine engineers and assorted techies gravitating towards W8 and Android (though I can see Android getting the jump on W8 there).


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 19, 2012)

iPad's strong points would obviously include build quality, global reach, hands down winner in available/quality apps, world class technical/store support and a company not too afraid to cannibalise. AllThingsD

Apart from the usual corporate cuntishness that permeates all pad suppliers, what's not to like?


----------



## elbows (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Android tablets will overtake iPads eventually, sure as eggs is eggs.


 
Thats not a safe bet at all. If Windows 8 tablets are a flop and a large chunk of the ereader market switches to small tablets then it could well happen, but its not a certainty by any means.

Android seems to have secured itself a nice place in the small tablet market, but the same cannot be said for larger tablets. I believe I may well want to look at these as two completely separate markets going forwards, since some of the detail is lost when we lump them all together, and they are different clases of device in some important ways. No point me delving into this much further till we see how windows and ipad mini do though.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> Thats not a safe bet at all. If Windows 8 tablets are a flop and a large chunk of the ereader market switches to small tablets then it could well happen, but its not a certainty by any means.
> 
> Android seems to have secured itself a nice place in the small tablet market, but the same cannot be said for larger tablets. I believe I may well want to look at these as two completely separate markets going forwards, since some of the detail is lost when we lump them all together, and they are different clases of device in some important ways. No point me delving into this much further till we see how windows and ipad mini do though.



It's not a safe bet because it wrongly assumes that the tablet market (why people buy and own them) is the same as the smartphone market. It's not its closer to the MP3 player one.


----------



## elbows (Oct 19, 2012)

I dont find the mp3 comparison any more valid than the smartphone one, not with the likes of amazon aggressively pricing stuff and making their money from the content, and with microsoft entering the scene from a theoretically stronger position than they've ever managed with mp3 players or smartphones.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2012)

The techies r


8ball said:


> I imagine there'll be a fight between formats on different battlegrounds.
> 
> In my line of work (clinical tech) it's moving iPad-wards at the moment, I would guess the same will happen in the 'creative industries', broadly speaking, and I could easily imagine engineers and assorted techies gravitating towards W8 and Android (though I can see Android getting the jump on W8 there).


 
The techies will gravitate towards Android for sure, as they will be free to tinker and install whatever they feel like on it, rather than be tied down to Microsoft.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> The techies will gravitate towards Android for sure, as they will be free to tinker and install whatever they feel like on it, rather than be tied down to Microsoft.


 
Depends which techies, I think.  For those with penguins on their t-shirts I think you're certainly right - larger companies may well feel safer with Microsoft.

Plus a lot will depend on the compatibility of existing systems.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> sworcery is fantastic. the mood and music and graphics are sublime. quoad, you don't know shit


I know shit.

Sworcery is shit.

I know Sworcery is shit.

Also, black swans.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> I dont find the mp3 comparison any more valid than the smartphone one, not with the likes of amazon aggressively pricing stuff and making their money from the content, and with microsoft entering the scene from a theoretically stronger position than they've ever managed with mp3 players or smartphones.



Time will tell but I was talking about consumer behaviour. People NEED phones, they WANT tablets and MP3 players, therein lay the different in consumer purchase decisions.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Time will tell but I was talking about consumer behaviour. People NEED phones, they WANT tablets and MP3 players, therein lay the different in consumer purchase decisions.


 
People haven't NEEDED mobile phones very long.

Not sure many NEED them at all.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> People haven't NEEDED mobile phones very long.
> 
> Not sure many NEED them at all.



I've NEEDED a mobile phone since 1996! That's a fair amount of time!


----------



## Sunray (Oct 19, 2012)

I only think 7" devices are useful as they go lower in the weight stakes.  Give me a 10" tablet that weighs next to nothing and suddenly 7" tablets are somewhat irrelevant.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I only think 7" devices are useful as they go lower in the weight stakes. Give me a 10" tablet that weighs next to nothing and suddenly 7" tablets are somewhat irrelevant.


It's not just about the weight AT ALL. Really. You're completely missing the point.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 19, 2012)

Weight is an issue, despie all its lovelyness the iPad3 is just a little too hefty to cart around everywhere. Although I'd really miss the screen space if I were to switch to a 7incher.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Weight is an issue, despie all its lovelyness the iPad3 is just a little too hefty to cart around everywhere. Although I'd really miss the screen space if I were to switch to a 7incher.


Weight is part of the equation obviously, but 7" tablets are never going to become "irrelevant" just because a larger tablet is lighter.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 19, 2012)

iPads are heavier than, say, A4 notebooks, but they're not _that_ heavy. 7" is certainly more about the dimensions IMO - and not just "having a big enough bag" but also the mobility of it in tight environments. Using something Kindle-sized on a crowded bus or tube is fine, for instance, whereas 10" is more awkward, as the screen size means your arm movements are more pronounced too.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

It's clear that a number of factors make it appealing; weight is a key one and so is size and maybe even ecosystem, price of course is probably much bigger sitting along side brand strength.

People don't spend hundreds of pounds on a gadget they don't need day to day, a luxury basically, without considering more than one appealing factor.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> It's not just about the weight AT ALL. Really. You're completely missing the point.


 
OK, you're entitled to that opinion.  This is what I believe. Technology just isn't there to demo that proof but time will tell.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

Sunray said:


> OK, you're entitled to that opinion. This is what I believe. Technology just isn't there to demo that proof but time will tell.


If it's only about the weight, why are Apple releasing a 7" Mini tablet instead of an even lighter iPad?
I own both a 7" and 10" tablet and they really are quite different beasts.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 19, 2012)

What size fucking bag are you carrying that a regular iPad is cumbersome???

Do you want an iPurse??!


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> going forwards


 
 Damn you, elbows, you usually write so well!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

Kanda said:


> What size fucking bag are you carrying that a regular iPad is cumbersome???
> 
> Do you want an iPurse??!


 
Innit. I see loads of people with iPads on crowded busses and tubes these days, almost as many as with Kindles in fact...


----------



## elbows (Oct 19, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Damn you, elbows, you usually write so well!


 
Sorry and thank you, but I'm pretty sure I commit numerous crimes against writing here every day. I am sometimes surprised it doesnt cause more red-faced unsmileys, tearing at my soul and dooming me to the periphery. Perhaps I get away with it due to flowery use of language, or posts being so long few read them or have the energy to complain once the chore of reading them is over


----------



## Kanda (Oct 19, 2012)

I've just measured, my 'man bag' (Ted Baker one, quite small) 

10"x12"... that's about A4 side... could I carry an A5 size man purse? No!!!  Do you guys have 'man purses'? lol


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

Of course as soon as Apple release their mini iPad the new smaller size will be a stroke of genius, perfect for small bags, brilliant original thinking, great for carrying around, fantastic alternative etc etc.


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> tearing at my soul and dooming me to the periphery.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

Interesting that for all the claims about 7" tablets doing well the Google nexus has apparently only sold 700,000-1000,000. Very low figure that doesn't suggest Apple has to try very hard to blow the market out of the water...


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 19, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I've just measured, my 'man bag' (Ted Baker one, quite small)


 
Nekkid thread etc is that way ----->


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2012)

Kindle Fire 7" reportedly sold over 5 million units by August - and that's only in the US. Sure seems like pretty good sales to me.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Kindle Fire 7" reportedly sold over 5 million units by August - and that's only in the US. Sure seems like pretty good sales to me.


If you're quoting the 'five million' in that report, then in a world of spurious, questionable, and ridiculous stats, that bit of reporting is fighting to be top dog.



> The Associated Press estimates the Kindle Fire sold about 5 million units, if sales are calculated using Apple iPad numbers.


 
The hell does that even mean? It looks like a second hand report of an estimate based on unexplained and - at face value - daft and spurious assumptions.

I can't find any other references to 'million' in that report. Am I missing one?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> If you're quoting the 'five million' in that report, then in a world of spurious, questionable, and ridiculous stats, that bit of reporting is fighting to be top dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
5 million in a nearly a year. People were talking up the nexus selling like it was going to be millions. The iPad sales insane amounts per QUARTER and so will the mini...


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> 5 million in a nearly a year. People were talking up the nexus selling like it was going to be millions. The iPad sales insane amounts per QUARTER and so will the mini...


 
Maybe I've missed a bit about the Nexus. The bit that I was - specifically - quoting and responding to was wrt the Amazon / Kindle Fire 7". And - specifically - the ed's source, which contained some properly awful reporting about Kindle Fire sales.

wrt the iPad - in year 1, no iDevice has created massive sales. afaict.

The figures I was finding recently wrt Apple sales suggest that your comparison between_ current _iPad sales and first-year sales of other devices might be unfair / unjustified.

http://aaplinvestors.net/stats/iphonevsipod/

^^^
Year 1 sales of iPads were - what? - one-third of year 2 and year 3 sales?

Year 1 sales of iPhones and iPods just don't bear mentioning. Compared to latter years, they're pitiful.

If you're comparing iPad sales with year 1 sales of any device, then IMO you're most likely missing a point and making an unfair comparison.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 19, 2012)

The nexus7 has had a massively successful debut, rather annoyingly I haven't seen a single negative review - everyone loves it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Maybe I've missed a bit about the Nexus. The bit that I was - specifically - quoting and responding to was wrt the Amazon / Kindle Fire 7". And - specifically - the ed's source, which contained some properly awful reporting about Kindle Fire sales.
> 
> wrt the iPad - in year 1, no iDevice has created massive sales. afaict.
> 
> ...


 
Was just reading about it somewhere will dig out (it was linked to Googles earnings being leaked ahead of time and tanking their value by 20 billion). On your other point everyone else is comparing Nexus to iPad now so why shouldn't I? I didn't invent the criteria for success just trying to add ome context...


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> On your other point everyone else is comparing Nexus to iPad now so why shouldn't I?


What's your point here?

That you're working with reliable statistics, and presenting reliable comparisons?

Or that everyone else is working with unreliable statistics, and presenting unreliable comparisons, so why shouldn't you?

Given year 1 sales of every iDevice going, IMO it's reasonable to suggest that comparisons between current iDevice sales and other products in their first year aren't necessarily reliable, or particularly meaningful.

If you've got data that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested to see it. tbf, the market has - obv - changed. Which might provide the basis for arguing that current Nexus / Fire sales aren't entering the same playing field as the iPad was.

But, erm. I'm not seeing those arguments put forward. Or - tbh - much in the way of semi-comprehensible data presentation or analysis.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

The same as always, you comment one what you see and don't expect it to be taken as fact until the actually hard facts are known. I'd point anyone on this thread having difficulty with this to read the title again, it wasn't called this by accident.


----------



## elbows (Oct 19, 2012)

We can start this argument now, but we wont really know for a good while yet. At a bare minimum we need to see what actual sales turn out like over the christmas quarter. And really the nexus 7, new amazons, windows 8 tablets and ipad mini need longer than that before judging them, especially if the question is about how market share is going to turn out in the end.

Achieving sales figures in the same league as the ipad remains a very large challenge, simply because ipad sales have been so strong, especially this year.

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/14/ipad-market-share-all-time-high/

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167850/apple_revenue_profits_up_in_ipad_driven_quarter.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2012)

According to Mashable latest rumour is the iPad 2 will be dropped and the iPad mini will take its place. Makes sense really...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 20, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> According to Mashable latest rumour is the iPad 2 will be dropped and the iPad mini will take its place. Makes sense really...


If that's true I imagine it will also be a big clue as to how the thing will be priced...


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> The nexus7 has had a massively successful debut, rather annoyingly I haven't seen a single negative review - everyone loves it.


Indeed. It is a fantastic device.
I couldn't give a fuck how many it's sold - all I care about is that I bought a fantastic tablet I use every day for less than £190 and I'm one very satisfied customer - as are many, many others.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 20, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If that's true I imagine it will also be a big clue as to how the thing will be priced...



Perhaps, think selling the iPad mini for £329 might not fly though...reckon it'll be closer to £250...


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> And are subsidised (or, allegedly, at cost for the Nexus) and don't have the ecosystem to add value, as I said.


Actually it seems that there's healthy profits for Nexus sales.


> Google And Asus's Tidy Profit On Nexus 7 Necessitates An iPad Mini
> When Amazon launched the Kindle Fire last year, most analysts assumed that it was taking a small loss on every unit of the Kindle Fire sold. When Google and Asus launched the Nexus 7 last month at around the same price range, the same assumption held — either selling the tablet at breakeven, or at very low profit margins
> 
> However, a new analysis by iSuppli suggests that Google and Asus may be making a nice profit on each unit of the Nexus 7, as the total bill of materials or the gross cost adds up to just around $150 for the Nexus 7. The $199 Nexus 7 8 GB variant costs exactly $151.75 to build while the $249 Nexus 7 16 GB variant costs $159.25. This implies gross margins of nearly 25% to 35% for the device, which are closer to what Apple makes on each iPad.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp...-profit-on-nexus-7-necessitates-an-ipad-mini/


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 21, 2012)

A 6-day / 5-page / 150-posts-later bump, to post something you've just posted on the Nexus thread?



> Asus' Chairman Jonney Shih and Google's head of Android Andy Rubin have revealed that the Nexus 7 is being sold at cost, and was built in just four months. "Our engineers told me it is like torture," Shih tells _All Things D._ Asus was told that the Nexus tablet was to be ready in four months, must be high-end, and should not cost over $200. "They ask a lot."
> 
> ...
> 
> It's clear to all that Google is pitching its tablet as a direct competitor to Amazon's Kindle Fire. However, unlike the Fire, the Nexus 7 has a quad-core Tegra 3 SoC and a 1280 x 800 laminated display — so how is Google selling it at the same price? "When it gets sold through the Play store," says Rubin, "there's no margin, it just basically gets (sold) through." _All Things D_ elaborates that Google is also absorbing the marketing costs associated with the device. When asked if he thinks this cost structure will make life difficult for other Android manufacturers to sell tablets, Rubin insisted there is "plenty of room left for Android tablet innovation."


http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/28/3122811/nexus-7-manufacturing-cost-design-time

Obv. things might've changed and / or the heads of Android and Asus might've been misquoted / mis-speaking.


----------



## elbows (Oct 21, 2012)

I'm doing my long drooling answers on the other thread but in a nutshell its still fair enough to think of the nexus 7 as a subsidised tablet. Asus are making money on it, albeit at lower margins than was previously the norm for their tablets, and only because Google are absorbing other costs and making sure it sells in huge numbers. Carphone warehouse and every other retailer selling it are making some money on it. We cant quite tell if its costing goole money or if its neutral or even making them some money, but at a very minimum we can say they have taken the risk of spending loads of money on marketing it, and that it would not have happened at these prices in 2012 without googles involvement.

The Forbes article is right for the wrong reasons. Apple arent getting into the smaller tablet market because of how juicy the profit margins are on the nexus 7. Its because of how many 7" tablets can be sold, thats what the nexus 7 demonstrates well, and how juicy Apple can make the profit margins due to their higher pricing structure.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2012)

Steve Jobs on 7" tablets back in 2010:


> Well, one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of the difference. It is meaningless, unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of the present size. Apple's done extensive user-testing on touch interfaces over many years, and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touch screen before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10-inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet apps.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/22/ipad-mini-steve-jobs-7in-tablets


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2012)

I think Jobs was neglecting to factor how people would adapt the way they tap, flick or pinch things (oo-er) in order to adapt to smaller tablets.  With a lot of people now coming to tablets after using touch-screens on their phones, they're already well-equipped for this, and the research he is talking about is possibly comparing ease of tablet use to mouse and keyboard. 
So rather than it being a new experience that people are having to adapt to with their big, pudgy fingers, people nowadays probably find a 7-inch tablet a lot less fiddly than their phone, and the 10-inch tablet is going a bit Fisher Price for them.

It could also be read as being a bit damning towards the iPhone user interface.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 22, 2012)

8ball said:


> I think Jobs was neglecting to factor how people would adapt the way they tap, flick or pinch things (oo-er) in order to adapt to smaller tablets.  With a lot of people now coming to tablets after using touch-screens on their phones, they're already well-equipped for this, and the research he is talking about is possibly comparing ease of tablet use to mouse and keyboard.
> So rather than it being a new experience that people are having to adapt to with their big, pudgy fingers, people nowadays probably find a 7-inch tablet a lot less fiddly than their phone, and the 10-inch tablet is going a bit Fisher Price for them.
> 
> It could also be read as being a bit damning towards the iPhone user interface.



Quoting Jobs on anything is a fools game, he changed his mind all the time and indeed some considered it partly business strategy to keep competitors on edge...


----------



## Sunray (Oct 22, 2012)

There is also the being dead thing.  Sphere of influence is somewhat reduced.


----------



## elbows (Oct 22, 2012)

I've said all I can say about the Jobs quotes in the past, but I did notice that at the end of that Guardian article they arent exactly overwhelmed by the alleged size of the 7" market so far.



> Indeed, the other 7in tablets pretty much foundered. And although Amazon and Google have proven that there is a market there, it doesn't look like the biggest – with Amazon reckoned to have sold 5m in the past year, and Google about 1m in the past quarter (based on data in its financial results).


 
I think I'll wait till after we have an idea of sales over the christmas period before I make any grand proclamations about that sot of thing.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2012)

elbows said:


> I've said all I can say about the Jobs quotes in the past, but I did notice that at the end of that Guardian article they arent exactly overwhelmed by the alleged size of the 7" market so far.


The article is written by Charles Arthur. That is all you need to know.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 22, 2012)

elbows said:


> the alleged size of the 7" market so far


This isn't about a 7" market. It will be about a small and cheaper iPad market. The two aren't the same thing. I'd wager that the vast majority of people that will buy an iPad mini won't even consider a rival product.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 22, 2012)

Just looked at the iOS6 features and this new feature, presented at the iOS release






is something that will make a different screen size less of an issue. As Apple are quite fussy with regard to what they allow on the App store, insisting on Auto layout apps may make a new screen size possible without effecting existing iPad applications.

How well this feature works is open to question, although iOS 6 has been out for quite some time to developers they may already have updated their apps. It does require the app to be modified and rebuilt, but the effect of this change may mean the Mini has a retina display but not one that is the same size as the iPad.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 22, 2012)

Highly unlikely, IMO. All reports and parts leaks indicate a 7.85" screen, which is exactly correct for a 1024x768 screen at the old iphone's ppi. Can't be a coincidence.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 22, 2012)

elbows said:


> I've said all I can say about the Jobs quotes in the past, but I did notice that at the end of that Guardian article they arent exactly overwhelmed by the alleged size of the 7" market so far.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'll wait till after we have an idea of sales over the christmas period before I make any grand proclamations about that sot of thing.



Yep that figure for the nexus is probably right going by Googles financial report last week. Anyway, 24 hours till we know in actual fact what the hell this thing is about!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 22, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Just looked at the iOS6 features and this new feature, presented at the iOS release
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Auto layout may have had something to do with the iPhone 5?


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 22, 2012)

Ipad4 release rumoured now.  Can't see this happening.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2012)

How fake does that logo look? Pixels all over the place.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 22, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Highly unlikely, IMO. All reports and parts leaks indicate a 7.85" screen, which is exactly correct for a 1024x768 screen at the old iphone's ppi. Can't be a coincidence.


 
Quite possible, but Auto Layout isn't a trivial thing. I refer you to http://www.raywenderlich.com/20881/beginning-auto-layout-part-1-of-2 to get a jist of what is going on with this technology.  I for one would be disappointed if they don't have a retina display.  But will leave it till I have one in my hand in an Apple shop to see how grainy it is.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 22, 2012)

£205 starting price (in the US) according the CNET.  The N7 sells for £125 there, for comparison.


----------



## elbows (Oct 22, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Auto layout may have had something to do with the iPhone 5?


 
Its a new way of configuring the layout of your user interface items, which makes it easier to adapt certain kinds of layouts to changing between portrait and landscape mode, and yes different screen resolutions.

Its not a magic fix for all the potential issues though, depending on your content and type of app designers still need to put varying degrees of thought into these issues. It offers a means of thinking about layouts and how elements relate to each other that is a cleaner appraoch that requires much less manual coding than the old way which was rather clonky.

Its not been around long enough to ensure a good proportion of apps will automatically be fine if an ipad mini with a resolution of 1536x1152 came along tomorrow.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 22, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> £205 starting price (in the US) according the CNET. The N7 sells for £125 there, for comparison.


 
If that's true it'd have to be the psychologically important £199.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 22, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If that's true it'd have to be the psychologically important £199.


 
No way will it sell for £199 here if it's £205 in the US.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 22, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> No way will it sell for £199 here if it's £205 in the US.


 
Agreed, just saying that straight translation doesn't ring true of pricing segments. But broadly we all know that it's normally a dollar for pound translation or there abouts...


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 22, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Agreed, just saying that straight translation doesn't ring true of pricing segments. But broadly we all know that it's normally a dollar for pound translation or there abouts...


 
Yep, but I've already converted to pounds. So if you want to do that, it'll be £330 quid in the UK.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Yep, but I've already converted to pounds. So if you want to do that, it'll be £330 quid in the UK.


If it's as sky-high as that, the £199 32GB Nexus will definitely look an attractive alternative.

Not that I see any reason to believe the quoted prices.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 22, 2012)

editor said:


> If it's as sky-high as that, the £199 32GB Nexus will definitely look an attractive alternative.
> 
> Not that I see any reason to believe the quoted prices.


 
I never 'believe' the rumours, but if they come from a reputable source then I think they are going to be in the right area, at least.  Especially on the eve of launch.

The price does seem high: CNET has it $330 for the cheapest, then $430 & $530 for the higher spec'd models, which are rumoured (elsewhere) to be 16GB and 32GB.

Hefty if true!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 22, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Yep, but I've already converted to pounds. So if you want to do that, it'll be £330 quid in the UK.


 
It usually is that stupid.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 22, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It usually is that stupid.


 
Yeah, no arguments from me on that.

So if true, £330 for an 8GB tablet?  How many apps/games would that be?  Some of the android games I've downloaded have been nearly a gig each!


----------



## elbows (Oct 22, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It usually is that stupid.


 
No it isnt. Its been over a decade since such 'ripoff Britain' was quite that much of a ripoff across a range of IT & other products.

Just look at the existing ipad pricing. ipad 2 starts at $399, £329. ipad 3 starts at $499, £399.

Based on that sort of thing its more likely to be £269 or £279.

Based purely on taking the $330 at todays exchange rates and adding VAT, its more like the £249 price we heard talk of previously.

None of these prices for the base model would surprise me, anything higher and I will start to raise an eyebrow.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Since there isnt much time left for Apple speculation before the event, I may as well throw out the possibility that if they do ditch the ipad 2, they might slightly tweak the price of the ipad 3. I've no idea about the rumours of an updated model of ipad 3, I would say its too soon but I can also see why they might not want to keep selling an ipad without lightning connector for another 5ish months. And the design of the ipad 3 wasnt flawless, eg there has in the past been some talk of them addressing a heat issue with a revision to the design.

Apple are not going to abandon their premium pricing model, but they might feel like tweaking the ipad price to slightly slap around microsofts surface pricing psychology. Oh yes and there is a rumour that google will unveil a nexus 10 tablet at their event next week, with a resolution greater than the ipad 3 and whilst the rumour lacks pricing info, we know how aggressive google were with the nexus 7 pricing. Again if Google do this then it may be more about fending off the Amazon tablet threat than their tablet market share battles with Apple and now Microsoft, but oh the timing, poor Microsoft better hope that windows really means something to potential tablet customers.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Yeah, no arguments from me on that.
> 
> So if true, £330 for an 8GB tablet?  How many apps/games would that be?  Some of the android games I've downloaded have been nearly a gig each!



Indeed, I have plenty of apps that are well into their high hundreds of MBs, too many of them and you're eating into gigabytes easily.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> No it isnt. Its been over a decade since such 'ripoff Britain' was quite that much of a ripoff across a range of IT & other products.
> 
> Just look at the existing ipad pricing. ipad 2 starts at $399, £329. ipad 3 starts at $499, £399.
> 
> ...



$499 is roughly £312 we're still being ripped off in an almighty way Mr Splitting Hairs.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

The difference between a £279 and £330 pricetag is not splitting hairs you goofball.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

It is when my point was we clearly pay stupid amounts more.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> No it isnt. Its been over a decade since such 'ripoff Britain' was quite that much of a ripoff across a range of IT & other products.
> 
> Just look at the existing ipad pricing. ipad 2 starts at $399, £329. ipad 3 starts at $499, £399.
> 
> ...


 
That actually works out perfectly.  The ipad 2 is 1.2x more expensive in the UK than it costs in the US.

So, $330 x 1.2 = $399, which is exactly £249.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It is when my point was we clearly pay stupid amounts more.


 
Actually your original point was about pricing working out as a straight dollar to pound translation, something which hasnt been true for many a year.

I see you also like to talk about ripoffs without really acknowledging VAT, which is your right but doesnt exactly help to clarify how people should go about doing dollar to pound pricing estimates. That £312 you were on about turns into around £374 with VAT, and the extent to which Apple are responsible for the higher UK price of £399 then becomes clear.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> So if true, £330 for an 8GB tablet? How many apps/games would that be? Some of the android games I've downloaded have been nearly a gig each!


Looking at the games on my iPhone (most of which're universal...)

Modern Combat 3: 1.8gb
Horn: 1.8gb
Drift Mania 2: 1.7gb
The Dark Knight Rises: 1.5gb
Spiderman: 1.4gb
Avengers: 1.3gb
Death Dome: 1.1gb
Galaxy on Fire HD: 1.1gb.....



e2a: and - as someone's mentioned elsewhere - I think unpacking them / DLing them requires double the app's size in spare memory.

So knock off - what? - 2gb (?) for the OS (I get 28.08gb out of my 32gb iPhone), and you're already into having to do some urgent space / app management in order to DL just one of the bigger games! And that's without any music / videos loaded.

IMO that's definitely a point where iTunes Match begins to look worth it.


e2a2: looks like iOS 6 needs 2.7gb to DL / install so, erm, half that? Plus whatever else is knocked off the '8gb'?


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

iTunes match enables me to live with a 16GB iPad but app sizes are an issue for sure, I dont think 8 is enough. That and given what Google learnt about 16GB vs 8GB demand I still struggle somewhat with the idea of an 8GB ipad mini, and if there are 3 sizes then 16, 32 & 64 GB still seems more likely to me.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> iTunes match enables me to live with a 16GB iPad but app sizes are an issue for sure, I dont think 8 is enough. That and given what Google learnt about 16GB vs 8GB demand I still struggle somewhat with the idea of an 8GB ipad mini, and if there are 3 sizes then 16, 32 & 64 GB still seems more likely to me.


I was going to post that 8gb would require an exceptionally undemanding user.

But then realised that it'd be absolutely spot-on for both Artichoke and my mum (who, tbf, are both exceptionally undemanding users  Artichoke uses her iPad for the internet, iMessages and facebook. And my mum uses her iPhone for... erm. Photos. And occasionally iMessages.)


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Well when the 8GB rumour was first floated I didnt rule it out, and I still dont. I guess only with the pricing announced will it be clear whether the compromises involved with 8GB make any sense.

Anyway ugh I was sort of enjoying the speculation for a while but I'm glad the announcement is tomorrow as I've had enough now, becoming a VAT bore is the last straw!


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

I feel kinda relieved that I don't give a shit about this release  Artichoke'd kick my arse if I blew anything on a new device. And I honestly, honestly can't see where I / we would have a use for it.

Definitely up for waiting for the second release. If it begins to look at all promising / more interesting. Which I'd wager will have a retina screen, if this one doesn't!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I feel kinda relieved that I don't give a shit about this release  Artichoke'd kick my arse if I blew anything on a new device. And I honestly, honestly can't see where I / we would have a use for it.
> 
> Definitely up for waiting for the second release. If it begins to look at all promising / more interesting. Which I'd wager will have a retina screen, if this one doesn't!



I'm only really interested because the other half wants an iPad but doesn't want to spend that kind of money so a well priced mini would be perfect.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 23, 2012)

i'm not interested at all, as I don't buy apple products, and I'm on the dole and skint, so couldn't even if I wanted to.

No idea why I waded into this discussion 

Roll-on the Nexus event!


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> That actually works out perfectly.  The ipad 2 is 1.2x more expensive in the UK than it costs in the US.
> 
> So, $330 x 1.2 = $399, which is exactly £249.


remember, US prices are before sales tax, which varies state to state. VAT is 20% so a 1.2x difference would mean that we're actually paying the "same" as in the US.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Apparently the event is being streamed live via Apple TV.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Yeah, I am dusting of my apple tv so I can watch it later. It may be streamed on their site too, not sure yet.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Haven't seen that but it wouldn't surprise me. 

Interesting that they chose to stream this event on ATV out of all the other events they could have, wonder what they're testing...


----------



## gabi (Oct 23, 2012)

So they're releasing a smaller iPad? Isn't that basically an iPod Touch? What's the fuss about?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

gabi said:


> So they're releasing a smaller iPad? Isn't that basically an iPod Touch?


 
No. ipads and ipods run different software.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> No. ipads and ipods run different software.


 
Doesn't the new iPod Touch run ios6?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> Doesn't the new iPod Touch run ios6?


I should have said apps. The ipad mini will run ipad apps. An ipod touch cannot.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

OH MY GOD JUST TWO HOURS LEFT!!!!

Has everyone got their celebratory beverages, popcorn tubs, and light Apple launch snack trays fully prepared and ready to hand?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

I am wearing a padded glove on my right hand to avoid high five blisters


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Is the ipad mini going to have a silly name? That is the level my brain is at right now. Deep man.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

Mini or Air


----------



## Kanda (Oct 23, 2012)

It should be called iPad 7 and watch Google go nuts


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Mini or Air


The Best Thing to Happen to the MiniAirSevenPadPodRetinaLite since the MiniAirSevenPadPodRetinaLite.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

So, is this event going to be just the new iPad, or is there likely to be something else as well? (13" retina macbook etc)


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, is this event going to be just the new iPad, or is there likely to be something else as well? (13" retina macbook etc)


 
Strong signs of Retina 13" and new Minis.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Strong signs of Retina 13" and new Minis.


Are the Macbook Air's likely to get retina at some point soon?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Are the Macbook Air's likely to get retina at some point soon?


 
I doubt it. All those pixels require a fair bit of power, both in switching the actual display and in the GFX chip. It would tax the smaller battery in the Airs.

The 13" retina pro will be pretty close to an Air anyway. No optical drive, flash storage. Just a bit thicker and heavier.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

I might buy one for my mum for Christmas so she can have another overpriced gadget to use for nothing else but Solitaire.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I doubt it. All those pixels require a fair bit of power, both in switching the actual display and in the GFX chip. It would tax the smaller battery in the Airs.
> 
> The 13" retina pro will be pretty close to an Air anyway. No optical drive, flash storage. Just a bit thicker and heavier.


Cool, that's kinda what I thought. Seals my decision to get a 13" Air at xmas


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

If I were to buy a Mad today it'd be an Air...


----------



## peterkro (Oct 23, 2012)

Live! ah ha ha ha.(video quality is pretty stunning)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

So anyone got a link to some clever sod  Ustreaming the live feed from Apple TV?


----------



## peterkro (Oct 23, 2012)

It's streaming live from Apple.com not just Apple TV.

http://www.apple.com/apple-events/october-2012/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Looks like you can see the live stream if you're on an Apple device:

http://m.lifehacker.com/5954174/wat...urce=lifehacker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Somehow I think I will struggle to have as much fun taking the piss out of this one as I did the Google I/O one, since nobody is likely to parachute onto the roof of the building


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Where is editor? He is missing the obligatory apple store whooping and hollering video.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I doubt it. All those pixels require a fair bit of power, both in switching the actual display and in the GFX chip. It would tax the smaller battery in the Airs.
> 
> The 13" retina pro will be pretty close to an Air anyway. No optical drive, flash storage. Just a bit thicker and heavier.


This is one main reason that I have no regrets about buying a 13 inch earlier this year! Eight hours realistic battery, not sure how that's going to work with retina!


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

200 million devices running iOS 6 already. That is quite noteworthy from a developers point of view.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

I hate the green background of Game Center.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

I find his voice very annoying.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Having a dig at 'stretched out smartphone apps' again, heres looking at you android.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

They've really schooled Tim Cook on Jobs-style intonation.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> I hate the green background of Game Center.


It's one of the awful bits of Apple skeuomorphic design which has, at least, taught the world what "skeuomorphic" means.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I find his voice very annoying.


 
Tries much to hard to sound sincere. Very similar script to what Jobs used to do, but yeah, even more annoying.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I find his voice very annoying.


 
(It's an attempt to sound like Jobs, I think)


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

New iBooks, same wooden bookshelf. Continuous scrolling of books. Tweet quotes from books.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

Starting with fluff tbh.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Is there a Bill Gates lookalike in the audience?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm far more interested in this mac stuff than the ipad mini.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

TechSpank 'The display was so gorgeous I got a permanent erection'


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

I can never get used to seeing a standard display connector on a mac laptop, actual HDMI.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2012)

Looking very tempting so far


----------



## sim667 (Oct 23, 2012)

AH, the video doesnt work at work.....

any good blog type update places?


----------



## peterkro (Oct 23, 2012)

Arstechnica.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

There's really not a lot at the moment. There's a new 13" Macbook Pro with retina display and all sorts of shit which is the best thing ever since the last one.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Tim Cook looked like he only started prepping for the keynote today...fluffed a few too many lines.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

iMac?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

So that won't have an optical drive then.

Good. I keep putting my SD card into the optical drive slot by mistake. I actually taped it up.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2012)

They've been busy obviously, as after a (mac) mini update it's now the iMac


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

Mine stopped working over a year ago. Haven't missed it.
EDIT: My optical drive, I mean


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Mine stopped working over a year ago. Haven't missed it.



Yeah have to say cant ever see me buying a desktop again for home...


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

I dont think an iMac will interest me again until its multitouch and can hover.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

They can multitouch with the magic trackpad. I don't think they hover much though.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Fusion Drive?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

Okay, the Fusion Drive looks interesting. That's actually new. (128 gig flash drive + 1 or 3 TB HDD, for those not watching this, but all in one volume with the distribution between the two automatically controlled by software in Mountain Lion.)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Oh I see so Apple are betting that flash storage ain't dropping very much in price for the foreseeable future...


----------



## sim667 (Oct 23, 2012)

They're good for colleges, because when we need to move them we dont have to lug about a screen and a box.

I wouldnt personally have one....

I wonder if they'll anounce a mac pro refresh..... rumor has it they were developing a rack mount mac pro.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

I've seen the methodology behind Fusion used in enterprise SANs. (They'll manage a whole range of different disk tech & speed in a single rack - shuffling stuff around as required).

Nice to see that come to the desktop.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Here we go...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> I've seen the methodology behind Fusion used in enterprise SANs. (They'll manage a whole range of different disk tech & speed in a single rack - shuffling stuff around as required).
> 
> Nice to see that come to the desktop.


Yeah, I like that - it's proper meat rather than fluff about scrolling in iBooks, or predictable upgrades to Macbooks.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm quite tempted by those imacs. They're not skimping on the graphics any more, the GeForce GT 640M is a serious contender.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 23, 2012)

Bollocks has ipad been embraced in education quickly


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Dr James Ponce


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'm quite tempted by those imacs. They're not skimping on the graphics any more, the GeForce GT 640M is a serious contender.



How good is that card?


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Still a chance there is no ipad mini


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Richer interactivity for iBooks is a very good move...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> Still a chance there is no ipad mini


I will probably shit myself laughing if that happens. And I will regurgitate a hat.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> I will probably shit myself laughing if that happens. And I will regurgitate a hat.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How good is that card?


Very. It's not top of the top line, but it's the most recent architecture from nVidia. Will run all but the most demanding games at High settings.

http://hothardware.com/Reviews/NVIDIA-GeForce-GT-640M-Kepler-Goes-Mobile-with-Acer/?page=9



> Performance Summary: The new NVIDIA GeForce GT 640M offered best-of-class performance in almost every game test condition we threw at it, especially with current DX11 game titles like Batman, Metro 2033 and Lost Planet 2. In general, this new NVIDIA Kepler mobile GPU is about 20% faster than their previous generation midrange performance mobile device, the GeForce GT 555M. In addition, power efficiency versus the previous gen architecture was significantly better


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

What?


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

How to piss off ipad 3 owners, and rub it in by saying its only been 6 months since the last one.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> How to piss off ipad 3 owners, and rub it in by saying its only been 6 months since the last one.



I only got mine in August! But it's interesting they've iterated so quickly, feeling the heat in the market?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

What?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

iPad 4!!

LOL!


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

No UK Carriers on that LTE chart


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> iPad 4!!
> 
> LOL!



iPad mini to have iPad 3 tech?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Heh clever.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I only got mine in August! But it's interesting they've iterated so quickly, feeling the heat in the market?


 
Users feeling the heat on the back of the 3rd gen device!


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

Aaaaand, it looks exactly like it did on page 1 of this thread.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

But how big is it, Phil?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Battery life and price please.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

He's finally got around to it. For heaven's sake.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

Anyone notice how that excess bezel has gone? On two sides at least. Looks alot nicer without it.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Direct attacks on the nexus 7.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Directly going after the nexus 7.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Anyone notice how that excess bezel has gone? On two sides at least. Looks alot nicer without it.


Only possible because it's smaller and lighter. On the big one, you need that area to get a good grip.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Price?


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

The app comparisons were pretty compelling. Whether fair and balanced I have no idea. (elbows?)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

So no one more thing then?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> The app comparisons were pretty compelling. Whether fair and balanced I have no idea. (elbows?)



Ten hours of battery life plus LTE is pretty decent.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

Absolutely any sentence Jonny Ive says, is always constructed with exactly the same intonations and emphasis.

I think he's actually software. Like Max Headroom. Even has the tilting head.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> The app comparisons were pretty compelling. Whether fair and balanced I have no idea. (elbows?)


 
I've always been unhappy with the state of android tablet apps. I've got a nexus 7 and its a great device, but this aspect is upsetting me more and more. But I want to be fair so this week I am looking at a range of android apps to make sure I'm not being a biased idiot. I'm sure I will drone on about it when I'm done.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Price?


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

No 8GB model, good.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

$329 which fits with the conversation on this thread that went a bit wobbly with its numbers last night.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

32GB mini is $429, 64GB for $519. $130 each additional for LTE connectivity.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> No 8GB model, good.



Yup 8 is pointless.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

10 hours battery is excellent.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> 10 hours battery is excellent.



Yup. Very nice amount.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

$429 + $130 for LTE on the 32GB mini then.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

Could have been worse I suppose - at least it's not 16:9, and it's actually 8" rather than 7". Even so.


----------



## gabi (Oct 23, 2012)

Looks fucking beautiful. But I think I'll stick with the iPod Touch for now. It's essentially the same thing unless I'm missing something.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Tim Cook seriously needs to practice his keynote.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

gabi said:


> Looks fucking beautiful. But I think I'll stick with the iPod Touch for now. It's essentially the same thing unless I'm missing something.


It is much smaller and won't run iPad apps.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2012)

Not my bag, but looks pleasant to use.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Tim Cook seriously needs to practice his keynote.


 
Not really, its not like they need a stunning performance to sell their stuff is it. Adequate will do.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> Not really, its not like they need a stunning performance to sell their stuff is it. Adequate will do.


 
He really does, it looks like he's a bumbling idiot.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

They are updating the store, so will know UK prices soon.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Well that live stream cut off abruptly!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Do we need to add 20% tax to the price of $429 (ignoring the $130) to gauge the UK price? 

That is about £270 if not or £324 if tax is to be added.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

They look like they've woken up to the fact that they can't rest on their laurels now by releasing the iPad mini but also updating the iPad barely six months after the new one came out. Interesting to see whether iPad 5 comes out next March/April or of they've shifted the space to make way for a new product line...


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Yes you need to add VAT, and a bit more than just todays exchange rate.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

Right, missed it all due to putting my daughter to bed.

Quick summary anyone?


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They look like they've woken up to the fact that they can't rest on their laurels now by releasing the iPad mini but also updating the iPad barely six months after the new one came out. Interesting to see whether iPad 5 comes out next March/April or of they've shifted the space to make way for a new product line...


 
Well as I mentioned last night, there are Nexus 10 rumours around at the moment, and amazon have a bigger tablet out now too dont they? Throw in Microsofts efforts, the desire to switch quickly to lightning connectors, and a few flaws with the 3rd gen ipad, and its less shocking that they have done this.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Right, missed it all due to putting my daughter to bed.
> 
> Quick summary anyone?


They're replacing all the iPads with a giant inflatable vole.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Right, missed it all due to putting my daughter to bed.
> 
> Quick summary anyone?


 
Thinner iMacs
New retina display 13" MacBook Pro
New iBook author
iPad 4
iPad mini


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

If you have any 1/2 decent smart phone then you don't need to have the 3G/LTE as you can just open up a wifi hotspot when you need it. Fiddly perhaps, but saves having to have 2 sims and paying two bills.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Right, missed it all due to putting my daughter to bed.
> 
> Quick summary anyone?


It's exactly what people expected. No surprises. There's no real innovation here but a 7" tablet that will offer a very nice user experience at a premium price.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> iPad 4


Ooooh. Anything significant, or just gradual processor improvement?


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> If you have any 1/2 decent smart phone then you don't need to have the 3G/LTE as you can just open up a wifi hotspot when you need it. Fiddly perhaps, but saves having to have 2 sims and paying two bills.


I suspect that networks are going to get very wise to this and if you're not on a tethered tariff and you're wolfing down tablet sized chunks of data, they may well get on your case.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

And what was the screen res of the mini?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

After some thinking, its probably the 1st tablet that I have even a smidgen of desire to own and it still depends on the weight. Its many times the weight of my Kindle.

Ahh its £269 for the Wifi 16Gb.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Did think the reveal for the iPad mini was quite neatly done:


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And what was the screen res of the mini?


1024 x 768. Old school.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> I suspect that networks are going to get very wise to this and if you're not on a tethered tariff and you're wolfing down tablet sized chunks of data, they may well get on your case.


The phone networks are taking the piss really when it comes to data. I guess their original business model of call charges has fallen apart and they're desperate to get their profits elsewhere.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Ahh its £269 for the Wifi 16Gb.


Tempting.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> After some thinking, its probably the 1st tablet that I have even a smidgen of desire to own and it still depends on the weight. Its many times the weight of my Kindle.
> 
> Ahh its £269 for the Wifi 16Gb.


By comparison: the 16GB Nexus is currently to be found for £169.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The phone networks are taking the piss really when it comes to data. I guess their original business model of call charges has fallen apart and they're desperate to get their profits elsewhere.


 
Agreed.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Three do a £25pm monthly SIM only tariff with unlimited data and tethering. Not bad really with no contract.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Page is up: http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad-mini/overview/


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> By comparison: the 16GB Nexus is currently to be found for £169.


And isn't really comparable in any way.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Three do a £25pm monthly SIM only tariff with unlimited data and tethering. Not bad really with no contract.


 
Yup. I tether via my iPhone 4S which is pretty neat although obviously not 4G speeds...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:
			
		

> After some thinking, its probably the 1st tablet that I have even a smidgen of desire to own and it still depends on the weight. Its many times the weight of my Kindle.
> 
> Ahh its £269 for the Wifi 16Gb.



Plus vat so about £324 give or take


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> I suspect that networks are going to get very wise to this and if you're not on a tethered tariff and you're wolfing down tablet sized chunks of data, they may well get on your case.


 
O2 changed their tariff about 18 months ago.  They use to have a block on tethering, but now its 500Mb a month and data is just data, they don't care what is consuming it. 

This may become a problem as at 269, the price is low enough for me to pre-order two.  Get one for my Mum for Xmas.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

They've changed the Apple store a bit too, it's now 'Shop Mac', 'Shop iPad' etc.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 23, 2012)

So the mini isnt retina?

I've been waiting for ages to update my ipad 1......... So i need to decide between a 16gb wifi mini, or a 16gb retina wifi......  im swaying toward the full size one still tbh..... I dont take it out of the house that often.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Plus vat so about £324 give or take


 
No, the £269 is shown on the Apple store and those UK prices include VAT. Its only when messing with the dollar price you have to add vat.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:
			
		

> No, the £269 is shown on the Apple store and those UK prices include VAT.



Ah, I see. When I saw $429 I assumed vat needed to be added.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Ooooh. Anything significant, or just gradual processor improvement?


 
Latest A6 cheap so faster, plus better LTE I think.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Plus vat so about £324 give or take


 
Err, 269, its on the Apple UK website. Don't consumer prices have to be VAT included.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And isn't really comparable in any way.


 
This will go well...


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Ah, I see. When I saw $429 I assumed vat needed to be added.


 
I added a bit to my post about $ prices to be clear.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Err, 269, its on the Apple UK website. Don't consumer prices have to be VAT included.



Yeah. As per above. My error it seems.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Latest A6 cheap so faster, plus better LTE I think.


LTE is......?


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And isn't really comparable in any way.


Not in your world, no, but not everyone has such a fixation on one single brand when it comes to 7" tablets.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

UK prices:

*Wi-Fi only*
16GB - £269
32GB - £349
64GB - £429

*Wi-Fi + Cellular*
16GB - £369
32GB - £449
64GB - £529


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

For those trying to work out pricing and which iPad they want, here's the comparison page:

http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/compare/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

So...how many iPad mini do people reckon Apple will sell this quarter? 5 million, 7 million, 10 million?


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> O2 changed their tariff about 18 months ago. They use to have a block on tethering, but now its 500Mb a month and data is just data, they don't care what is consuming it.


 
Yeah... but they crush JPEGs, insert their own javascript, mess around with page code... The JPEG recompression is *horrible*. You don't notice it on mobile, but it looks awful on a regular computer. (Or at least it did last time I tested it).

I've switched to Three. Unlimited data via tethering, and no fucked-around-with content.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> This may become a problem as at 269, the price is low enough for me to pre-order two. Get one for my Mum for Xmas.


I wish I had your disposable income.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Yeah... but they crush JPEGs, insert their own javascript, mess around with page code... The JPEG recompression is *horrible*. You don't notice it on mobile, but it looks awful on a regular computer. (Or at least it did last time I tested it).


Yep. They did horrible things to my photos.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Not in your world, no, but not everyone has such a fixation on one single brand when it comes to 7" tablets.


There is the 7" tablet market. There are many fine products available.

Then there is the iPad market. If you want/need an iPad nothing else compares to it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Another thing of note is Apple have rationalised their laptops and tablets to align. There's a retine top end, a full size normal, and a smaller cheaper light version of each.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm _seriously_ tempted by the 16 gig mini. Will run all the apps I need, be ultra portable and is a decent price.

Hmmmm.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> And isn't really comparable in any way.



Interested to see a comparison on specs. No doubt one will be along soon. I expect the iMini will best the Nexus but has £70 besting to do. Personally I would not be swayed but think £269 is lower than I expected.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Then there is the iPad market. If you want/need an iPad nothing else compares to it.


Yes. But not everyone wants an iPad Mini no matter what, so the well reviewed Nexus will be looked at as a very capable alternative - hence it is relevant to mention it.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'm _seriously_ tempted by the 16 gig mini. Will run all the apps I need, be ultra portable and is a decent price.
> 
> Hmmmm.


Just buy it ffs.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Interested to see a comparison on specs. No doubt one will be along soon. I expect the iMini will best the Nexus but has £70 besting to do. Personally I would not be swayed but think £269 is lower than I expected.


Coming atcha'!



http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31747_...i-vs-google-nexus-7-vs-amazon-kindle-fire-hd/

(edit: they've got some Nexus facts wrong in there - there's no onboard storage - and the 32GB is just about out for the same price as the 16GB).


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Begun this 7inch tablet war has. So now we have three mini tablets to choose from and four maxi tablets if the rumours of the Nexus 10 are true?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Wow didn't realise the Nexus 7 didn't have a rear camera, that's proper shit!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> Coming atcha'!
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31747_...i-vs-google-nexus-7-vs-amazon-kindle-fire-hd/



Not bad really.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Wow didn't realise the Nexus 7 didn't have a rear camera, that's proper shit!



No, I didn't either. Had taken it for granted it would have.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

I'd like it if rear cameras were banned from all tablets.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> four maxi tablets if the rumours of the Nexus 10 are true?


 
Not sure which four you are counting. There are loads more larger tablets than that, including 3 different types (ARM, Atom & intel laptop class cpu) of windows ones that all sorts of manufacturers will toy with.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Here's another comparison:


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Just buy it ffs.


If some of my sodding clients paid on time I might


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> No, I didn't either. Had taken it for granted it would have.


 
Me too. A camera is a must on any mobile devices these days of this size.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

*cough* it is an 8" tablet, not a 7" tablet.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd like it if rear cameras were banned from all tablets.


Why? They're shit for taking photos, but for certain apps they're essential.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> Not sure which four you are counting. There are loads more larger tablets than that, including 3 different types (ARM, Atom & intel laptop class cpu) of windows ones that all sorts of manufacturers will toy with.


 
iPad, Surface, Kindle, and possible Nexus 10. Do keep up dear.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

My Asus Transformer has a 8MP camera. Apparently it's quite a good one. Pictures taken thus far = 0.
I've got my phone for that.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 23, 2012)

Suspect a retina mini will be rolled out next year. The iPad3 seems to have vanished, here's hoping mine develops a fault  and gets replace with the 4.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

The Nexus 7 doesn't have LTE either? So er...you wifi hop with it then?


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Suspect a retina mini will be rolled out next year. The iPad3 seems to have vanished, here's hoping mine develops a fault and gets replace with the 4.


I suspect there might be a few developing faults or getting lost/stolen soon


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Suspect a retina mini will be rolled out next year. The iPad3 seems to have vanished, here's hoping mine develops a fault and gets replace with the 4.


 
Heh I don't see enough power bump to bother changing mine. It does exactly what I need it too very well...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

What's LTE?


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

I use wi-fi or the tethering on my phone to hook up the Nexus7. Works for me.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What's LTE?


A new way for the networks to fleece early adopters.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Absolutely any sentence Jonny Ive says, is always constructed with exactly the same intonations and emphasis.
> 
> I think he's actually software. Like Max Headroom. Even has the tilting head.



Loves bevels.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What's LTE?


 
Next generation cellurar network, like 3G but much much faster (7-10 times in fact).


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> What's LTE?



4G


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The Nexus 7 doesn't have LTE either? So er...you wifi hop with it then?


 
Dont you remember the Nexus 7 camping advert?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> *cough* it is an 8" tablet, not a 7" tablet.



This matters a bit I would have thought. The 7" tablet feels like it is as big as a mini tablet should be. The 8" is not THAT much bigger (and the iMini is a teeny bit lighter than the Nexus) but seems odd.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> He really does, it looks like he's a bumbling idiot.



For some reason or another, Jobs could get away with saying 'These products are really cool'' on a stage, but when Cook does it in the same way, he sounds like a 70s geography teacher.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Structaural said:


> For some reason or another, Jobs could get away with saying 'These products are really cool'' on a stage, but when Cook does it in the same way, he sounds like a 70s geography teacher.



Lol!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Hands on video:

http://t.co/LsDB44IK


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

It just looks like a Nexus in a silvery case to me.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 23, 2012)

It has a chamfer. Teh Megaton! I want one!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> It has a chamfer. Teh Megaton! I want one!



Lol! It does look better made than pretty much everything else in its class...


----------



## sim667 (Oct 23, 2012)

Hang on, did they update the iPad 3 too?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Lol! It does look better made than pretty much everything else in its class...



It is the winner. 

Most expensive of the Kindle/Nexus/iMini trio. That is not going to put the iPad buying peeps off for a second. The 5mp rear camera is a big plus and for some the LTE option will be important. 

Main things that put me off are the iOS, it being bigger and the price. It has the weaker screen resolution of them although I probably wouldn't notice.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

sim667 said:


> Hang on, did they update the iPad 3 too?



Yup it's now fourth gen iPad.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

sim667 said:
			
		

> Hang on, did they update the iPad 3 too?



The iPad3 is no better than a paperweight now


----------



## sim667 (Oct 23, 2012)

I had no idea, I just went to buy an ipad and it told me I had to wait to pre-order 

Much changed? I've been trying to sell my ipad 1 before I bought a new one, but me gran hurt herself and has to stay immobile until xmas, so I'm gonna lend it to her, as she hates her kindle


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> UK prices:
> 
> *Wi-Fi only*
> 16GB - £269
> ...


 
Glad I didn't wait until now before deciding to buy a Nexus 7 then. Saved myself £110 and got £25 of credit!


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Wow didn't realise the Nexus 7 didn't have a rear camera, that's proper shit!


 
Yep, Google dropped the ball with that one. But then you do look like a massive twat using a tablet as a camera. Did you see the people at the Olympics using their iPads as if they were camera phones?


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What's LTE?


 
4G to everyone but nerds.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

I _think_ I just saw an advert for the new iPad Mini on TV


----------



## Structaural (Oct 23, 2012)

I like to think that Wall-E is a kind of 'Apple won' movie. All that stuff that he was piling up into skyscrapers? Just iPads, iPods, iMacs, all recyclable, but too many and not food.  Even the last Apple sweeper upper can't keep away their fat consumerist return.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:
			
		

> Glad I didn't wait until now before deciding to buy a Nexus 7 then. Saved myself £110 and got £25 of credit!



Saved money and got a better resolution  double win eh?


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Saved money and got a better resolution  double win eh?


 
I forgot, you get the Transformers film too


----------



## Sunray (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Yeah... but they crush JPEGs, insert their own javascript, mess around with page code... The JPEG recompression is *horrible*. You don't notice it on mobile, but it looks awful on a regular computer. (Or at least it did last time I tested it).
> 
> I've switched to Three. Unlimited data via tethering, and no fucked-around-with content.


 
Just need to change APN to mobile.o2.co.uk the username to bypass and reconnect to the network by going into airplane mode and back out.
Problem solved.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

*The 20 Angriest iPad 3 Owners*


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Just need to change APN to mobile.o2.co.uk the username to bypass and reconnect to the network by going into airplane mode and back out.
> Problem solved.



Does that work for you? Didn't for me when I tried it recently. Maybe I did it wrong.

(I know that *used* to work for some people. I had the impression they closed that down.)


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> The 20 Angriest iPad 3 Owners




One Response to “The 20 Angriest iPad 3 Owners”

Mathew Foscarini says: 
October 23, 2012 at 3:55 pm 

hahahahaha….


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

Badgers said:


> One Response to “The 20 Angriest iPad 3 Owners”
> 
> Mathew Foscarini says:
> October 23, 2012 at 3:55 pm
> ...


Probably hasn't been up to much, since the end of Happy Days.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> Yep, Google dropped the ball with that one. But then you do look like a massive twat using a tablet as a camera. Did you see the people at the Olympics using their iPads as if they were camera phones?



People have massive phones and use them to take photos, there really isn't that much difference between that an the mini tablet range. A mini tablet must have a camera and a 3/4g option otherwise what's the point?


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> People have massive phones and use them to take photos, there really isn't that much difference between that an the mini tablet range.


 
Yeah, not much difference at all. In fact when you're waving an _iPad_ around to take a photo the person behind you probably won't even mind half the view being eclipsed.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

The Mini is massive compared to a phone and anyone trying to take pictures on any kind of tablet in a public place should rightly be laughed at.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> Yeah, not much difference at all. In fact when you're waving an iPad around to take a photo the person behind you probably won't even mind half the view being eclipsed.


Yes. People just _love_ massive, brightly illuminated screens being waved about in their faces. Adds to the gig experience no end,.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Quite difficult to see the phone, but you can't miss the iPad.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes. People just _love_ massive, brightly illuminated screens being waved about in their faces. Adds to the gig experience no end,.


 
I can't even see the point in taking pics on a camera phone at gigs, but each to their own I guess.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

I have no objection to people using tablets to take photos or videos in situations where there is no crowd.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

Anyone ever been to a gig and had an iPad 'waved' in their face?

Bands and venues please people.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There will be no iPad mini.


 


RaverDrew said:


> There'll be no ipad mini this year, just can't see it happening at all.


 
Koff koff.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> I have no objection to people using tablets to take photos or videos in situations where there is no crowd.


 
I don't think anyone would disagree with you. 

Google should have included a rear facing camera so you can scan QR codes, I have found myself missing that ability enormously


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Anyone ever been to a gig and had an iPad 'waved' in their face?
> 
> Bands and venues please people.


I was an art opening recently and some stupid woman was completely obscuring the view of the work with her fucking iPad.  In fact, I see it happening more at art galleries than anywhere else.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with you.
> 
> Google should have included a rear facing camera so you can scan QR codes, I have found myself missing that ability enormously


 
Really? I don't know anyone that bothers with them these days...


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with you.
> 
> Google should have included a rear facing camera so you can scan QR codes, I have found myself missing that ability enormously


You could probably have a bash at doing that with the front camera for the lolz.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm going to the Academy in a couple of weeks.

I reckon the number of iPads I'll see will be between fuck all and zero.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Anyone ever been to a gig and had an iPad 'waved' in their face?
> 
> Bands and venues please people.


 
Aye, it is proper annoying isn't it? It did make me laugh though that the OPC put a lot of effort in not allowing recognisable brands into the stadium just for people to wave their massive iPads around


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with you.
> 
> Google should have included a rear facing camera so you can scan QR codes, I have found myself missing that ability enormously


Exactly. Forget taking photos, the camera makes certain apps possible. Every tablet should have one.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> I'm going to the Academy in a couple of weeks.
> 
> I reckon the number of iPads I'll see will be between fuck all and zero.


 
I've not seen them at gigs or art galleries but saw them on holiday earlier this year A LOT. And see more iPads on the bus these days than I do Kindles which is incredible...


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Looking good!







http://imgur.com/gallery/zSRER


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> Aye, it is proper annoying isn't it? It did make me laugh though that the OPC put a lot of effort in not allowing recognisable brands into the stadium just for people to wave their massive iPads around



What gig was this you went to Firky?


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)




----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Looking good!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You go to some shit gigs mate.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2012)

I find the smart phone fairly unwieldy to take pictures with. That might just be my kackhandedness though. Fine for snaps and pics of pigeons or my lunch of course. I imagine a 7-9" tablet a bit of a wobbly camera.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Koff koff.


So what? I said that in August.

It's all a lot easier if you unquestioningly believe every single Apple rumour that comes around. Actual hit rate tends to be quite poor though.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


>



You weren't there though were you?


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Really? I don't know anyone that bothers with them these days...


 

If no one bothered with them why are they included on adverts in magazines, at the ends of articles, on billboards etc. Who says they are declining in use (survey / study) or is their an alternative or something that people are now using?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

That screen isn't looking as terrible as some have made out on here and elsewhere...


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

C'mon Editor. Name the venue and band you've seen this happen at.

I think we need to know, so we can avoid.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> You weren't there though were you?


I've no interest whatsoever in taking pictures of idiots taking pictures with their iPads. But it does happen. 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/places-you-shouldnt-take-pictures-with-an-ipad


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Looking good!
> 
> http://imgur.com/gallery/zSRER


 
Haha! He has to be taken a photo for his daughter in the pink gingham hat, surely?


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> I've no interest whatsoever in taking pictures of idiots taking pictures with their iPads. But it does happen.
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/places-you-shouldnt-take-pictures-with-an-ipad



Ever seen it yourself?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

New smart cover too...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

And some more hands on video...


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> Ever seen it yourself?


At art galleries yes. Several times and it's fucking annoying when it obscures the view. I imagine it'll be exactly as annoying at gigs and seeing as there's no shortage of examples on the web I'm not sure what your point is here, unless you're embarking on some sort of weird denial trip,


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

I see it a lot with tourists.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> C'mon Editor. Name the venue and band you've seen this happen at.
> 
> I think we need to know, so we can avoid.


 
I saw it done at a Kid Koala gig, saw it countless times whilst watching this years Olympics, seen people taking photos (or perhaps using an augmented app) in the street, and have seen quite a few photos on various tech blogs of it being done. It isn't common, because thankfully most people are sensible enough not to use a tablet as a traditional camera, but it does happen.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Something tells me this image may make into memeland...


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That screen isn't looking as terrible as some have made out on here and elsewhere...


 
How can you tell from a photo compressed jpeg?

I like how the screen goes to almost the very edges of it.


----------



## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes. People just _love_ massive, brightly illuminated screens being waved about in their faces. Adds to the gig experience no end,.



That you've never seen happen. Although, tbf, Firky has.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Much better hands on video:


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

firky said:


> How can you tell from a photo compressed jpeg?
> 
> I like how the screen goes to almost the very edges of it.


 
Heh you and Ed on this thread are reminding me of:


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> That you've never seen happen. Although, tbf, Firky has.


I can see and read what other people have posted on the web you know and I have experienced iPads annoyingly waved in my face, as I have already repeatedly explained.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

I've been expecting the 'iPad mini is perfect for Apple TV' posts...



> Apple Head of Marketing, Phil Schiller, took the stage today and asked a very important question. “What does the iPad mini do that the iPad doesn’t already do?” he wondered aloud.
> 
> His answer was only half as good – “It can fit in one hand.” Here at Cult of Mac, however, think that’s only part of the story. The fact is that Apple’s newest, smallest, thinnest iPad makes a perfect gaming controller.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Nice video of games playing on the mini, not too shabby...


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Heh you and Ed on this thread are reminding me of:


 
I have an iPad.

How can you tell from a photo compressed for the web? That is all I am asking.


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

paolo said:


> That you've never seen happen. Although, tbf, Firky has.


 
They were sharp told by someone in the audience! I don't know what was said but they popped it back in their rucksack and it never came back out


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

After all the name checking The Verge I guess it's no surprise they describe the iPad mini competition in such disparaging terms:



> Like most Apple products, the build of the smaller tablet is excellent, easily surpassing the competition on the market. By comparison, the Nexus 7 and Fire HD feel like toys. Other manufacturers are going to have to up their game with this product in town. It’s just a striking difference in materials and solidness.


 
Full article.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That screen isn't looking as terrible as some have made out on here and elsewhere...


 
It was never going to look terrible, which is mostly why I was such a resolution bore on this thread in the past.

Retina displays have a very silly pixel density that has raised a bar beyond what is really necessary, thats the only reason anyone would sneer at 1024x768 really. Put it this way, I'm still rather happy with this 17" 1920x1280 laptop, so based on that there isnt much reason to think that a 7.9" with over half that number of pixels in each direction would suck.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> It was never going to look terrible, which is mostly why I was such a resolution bore on this thread in the past.
> 
> Retina displays have a very silly pixel density that has raised a bar beyond what is really necessary, thats the only reason anyone would sneer at 1024x768 really. Put it this way, I'm still rather happy with this 17" 1920x1280 laptop, so based on that there isnt much reason to think that a 7.9" with over half that number of pixels in each direction would suck.


 
The way resolution was talked about I thought it'd be like that Mario pixel image from a few pages back.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> It was never going to look terrible, which is mostly why I was such a resolution bore on this thread in the past.
> 
> Retina displays have a very silly pixel density that has raised a bar beyond what is really necessary, thats the only reason anyone would sneer at 1024x768 really. Put it this way, I'm still rather happy with this 17" 1920x1280 laptop, so based on that there isnt much reason to think that a 7.9" with over half that number of pixels in each direction would suck.


 
Exactly there are still a lot of 15" PC laptops sold with 1366x768 screen (although I do think that's shocking)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

I _like_ pixels.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Oct 23, 2012)

Lots of anger about the iPad 4 and overpriced mini. Even from the serious fanbois I know. Who cares?


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I _like_ pixels.


They've usually got stools under them, tbf.

How many stools has it got?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> They've usually got stools under them, tbf.
> 
> How many stools has it got?


Are you thinking of cows?


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The way resolution was talked about I thought it'd be like that Mario pixel image from a few pages back.


 
But that doesn't explain how you can tell from the photograph you posted. If you cited a review or comments from users however... 




Kid_Eternity said:


> After all the name checking The Verge I guess it's no surprise they describe the iPad mini competition in such disparaging terms:


 

Apple's engineering is always of a very high standard and that is reflected in the prices. My Macbook Pro feels expensive and reassuring in my hands, same goes with my iPad.

I am not surprised they went with an A5 or a smaller resolution screen, it will extend battery life.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

ChrisFilter said:


> Lots of anger about the iPad 4 and overpriced mini. Even from the serious fanbois I know. Who cares?


 
I don't know how they have the energy, my third gen iPad is just over two months old, not bothered in the slightest by the fourth gen iPad. Wouldn't buy an iPad mini thinking about it if I didn't have an iPad as I find the 10" screen perfect for me.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

Good photo which shows the iPad and mini in the real world together (as a opposed to a digital mock up):


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2012)

Omg! Totes diagonals!


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

I would probably have been more interested in this device if they had added something beyond icons to the homescreen in iOS 6. By not doing so they allowed me to wander over to android.

However my experience this evening with a number of android apps on the nexus 7 has somehow managed to fall below my already low expectations, its bloody dire! It seems that by attempting to offset my existing bias towards android apps, which initially formed years ago, I somehow managed to give android the benefit of the doubt far more than I should have. WTF is this app the BBC released instead of iPlayer? Its a joke! The twitter experience doesnt even begin to compare. Anyway this rant is slightly premature, must spend more time with apps before going off about this further. (I've been so busy developing since I got the nexus 7 that I hadnt got round to trying that many apps with it till now). But the chances of me trying somehow to be able to afford an ipad mini have just increased a lot.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> After all the name checking The Verge I guess it's no surprise they describe the iPad mini competition in such disparaging terms:
> 
> 
> 
> Full article.


 
Now, I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, I've got two iPhones on the desk, and an iPad 3 next to them...you get the idea, I really don't have anything against Apple.  Love their stuff.  And I've got to be honest, I don't see the Nexus 7 as having any worse build quality than the iPad 3.  It feels just as solid to this ham-fisted user, and while you could argue (I guess) that the iPad's metal backing is more solid, I personally reckon the rubbery plastic backing on the nexus is much better from a comfort/ease of use point of view.  So unless the mini iPad has got some big step up from the full size version, I think they're being a bit daft claiming "_the build of the smaller tablet is excellent, easily surpassing the competition on the market. By comparison, the Nexus 7 and Fire HD feel like toys."_


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> The twitter experience doesnt even begin to compare. Anyway this rant is slightly premature, must spend more time with apps before going off about this further.


There's loads of excellent Twitter apps for the Nexus 7 so may I suggest you head off to the appropriate thread where I'd be happy to suggest some?


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 23, 2012)

I still don't see the point in 7" tablets. Too big for even larger pockets, and too small for browsing the net, playing games, watching movies etc for any real length of time. On a long journey I'd much rather have a full size tablet with me. 

I was given a free Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 and I used it a handful of times before getting bored with it and handing it over to my sister, who in turn thought it was crap and went out and bought an Asus transformer (which is better than the 10" ipad imo)


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

OK Flipboard for android does not suck, phew, I found an android app that doesnt make a mockery of the 7 inch tablet form. It even manages to show more words on the screen than it does on the galaxy nexus phone I have. So it isnt just a stretched smartphone app. However it still doesnt try to fit quite as much content on a page as I would ideally like to see on a 7" tablet. And the ipad version seems to fit more on a page, as you would expect, so the ipad mini experience on flipboard will be different to the nexus 7 one. Unless the developers decide to change the design for the ipad mini at some point, which isnt impossible given the whole point of flipboard involves stuff not ending up too small/crammed.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> It feels just as solid to this ham-fisted user, and while you could argue (I guess) that the iPad's metal backing is more solid, I personally reckon the rubbery plastic backing on the nexus is much better from a comfort/ease of use point of view. So unless the mini iPad has got some big step up from the full size version, I think they're being a bit daft claiming "_the build of the smaller tablet is excellent, easily surpassing the competition on the market. By comparison, the Nexus 7 and Fire HD feel like toys."_


It's a ridiculous claim and completely at odds with their review where they said the Nexus was, "impressively built and styled," "a classy, well-made product" and a " well-designed, powerful, and useful product, with lots of bells and whistles that makes it feel like a device that should be more expensive than it is. "

The review's conclusion stated, "Google’s Nexus 7 isn’t just an excellent tablet for $200. It’s an excellent tablet, period" so it seems weird that they're suddenly dismissing it as a "toy" against a product costing _considerably_ more.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I still don't see the point in 7" tablets. Too big for even larger pockets, and too small for browsing the net, playing games, watching movies etc for any real length of time. On a long journey I'd much rather have a full size tablet with me.
> 
> I was given a free Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 and I used it a handful of times before getting bored with it and handing it over to my sister, who in turn thought it was crap and went out and bought an Asus transformer (which is better than the 10" ipad imo)


It's got a _lot_ to do with the weight and the feel of the thing as well as the screen res, IMO.

I was given an HTC Flyer which has much the same specs and weight as the Galaxy and never used that either - whereas I use the Nexus every day,


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> So unless the mini iPad has got some big step up from the full size version, I think they're being a bit daft claiming "_the build of the smaller tablet is excellent, easily surpassing the competition on the market. By comparison, the Nexus 7 and Fire HD feel like toys."_


 
They are being daft. It might feel more expensive than the competition but thats because it is, and it doesnt mean the competition feel like toys. The nexus 7 feels just fine, the main differentiator remains apps which is why I am ranting about that now.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> They are being daft. It might feel more expensive than the competition but thats because it is, and it doesnt mean the competition feel like toys. The nexus 7 feels just fine, the main differentiator remains apps which is why I am ranting about that now.


Nexus 7 thread over there -->


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> So unless the mini iPad has got some big step up from the full size version, I think they're being a bit daft claiming "_the build of the smaller tablet is excellent, easily surpassing the competition on the market. By comparison, the Nexus 7 and Fire HD feel like toys."_


 

They are, there is of course a difference and as I said that is reflected in the price. There's also no doubt that Apple's engineering is always amongst the best in the class if not the best. However to say that the other tablets they mention feel like toys is either deliberately antagonistic to get more eyes on the article / adverts or good old hyperbole.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

elbows said:


> OK Flipboard for android does not suck, phew, I found an android app that doesnt make a mockery of the 7 inch tablet form. It even manages to show more words on the screen than it does on the galaxy nexus phone I have. So it isnt just a stretched smartphone app. However it still doesnt try to fit quite as much content on a page as I would ideally like to see on a 7" tablet. And the ipad version seems to fit more on a page, as you would expect, so the ipad mini experience on flipboard will be different to the nexus 7 one. Unless the developers decide to change the design for the ipad mini at some point, which isnt impossible given the whole point of flipboard involves stuff not ending up too small/crammed.



Um you do know this is the iPad mini thread right?


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

editor said:


> There's loads of excellent Twitter apps for the Nexus 7 so may I suggest you head off to the appropriate thread where I'd be happy to suggest some?


 
Thanks. I already put a call out on that thread for impressive apps to try, and received one twitter suggestion so far. And it was that which I tried and quickly formed an opinion that these apps are a bit of a joke compared to the ipad versions. And thats now relevant to this thread, Apple made it a central selling point during the ipad mini presentation and someone asked me for my opinion. Now obviously Apple were looking for apps that made the nexus 7 look bad, I am trying to find ones that make it look good so I can better judge how dishonest Apple were being or whether they've nailed it. So far they were more right than wrong from what I can tell, feel free to demonstrate otherwise. Right now I feel like a bit of a plonker for previously restricting most of my android app criticisms to the 10" tablets, I've been too easy on android, swayed by its popularity with others. How nobody besides me has not bitched more about this here I'll never know.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm trying hard to keep this thread on topic, so I'll go over to the Nexus 7 thread in a minute and post up some Twitter apps for you to try.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Um you do know this is the iPad mini thread right?


 
Yes, the device apple promoted by taking the piss out of nexus 7 apps. So I am on topic.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

I mean seriously, feel free to moan at me for comparing nexus & iPad apps on this thread if it was out of the blue and unrelated to anything that happened on the day in question. But given how much time Apple spent on this in a presentation less than 5 hours ago, I think I'm allowed to go on about it for now.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Elbows! Here! Look! Snacks!
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...scussion-reviews.295428/page-43#post-11633134


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 23, 2012)

It wasn't that it was out of the blue it was that you were going on and on about it in a tone that wasn't far too much like Marvin from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy that did it....


----------



## Firky (Oct 23, 2012)

My mum wants a tablet for Christmas. It's hard to get the iPad off her once she's on it and when I loaned her my netbook it came back with finger smudges all over the screen! The N7 is too small for her so the iPad mini will be as well. I am hoping with the release of the iPad4 and new iPad mini I may be able to pick up a bargin on ebay from angry iPad 3 owners who want to upgrade.


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It wasn't that it was out of the blue it was that you were going on and on about it in a tone that wasn't far too much like Marvin from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy that did it....


 
Why would I break the habit of a lifetime today? It would be more surprising if I were not droning on about something like this!


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

I think this is fair comment:


> *iPad's Mini's price makes it just a small threat to Android tablets*
> No doubt that an iPad Mini will do quite well with schools and higher education, a sector that Apple has been aggressively pursuing over the past few years. indeed, Android tablets will continue to have a tough time muscling in on that established ecosystem and listening to Tim Cook today, it's obvious that Apple is counting on continued success there.
> 
> The "average" consumer, however, are another matter. Just as some smartphone buyers doesn't need to spend more than $100 for a handset, I suspect that some will balk at pricey tablets, as well. Because at the end of the day, there's nothing new in the iPad Mini, nor is there anything that would justify the higher cost.
> ...


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2012)

> Sure, it's shinier and a bit sexier than other products, but is that enough?


lol 

Also, gadget blogger fail generally. "I can't understand why people buy this stuff! Look at the aggregated hardware scores! Why don't the sheep understand?"


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## paolo (Oct 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I've been expecting the 'iPad mini is perfect for Apple TV' posts...


 
A tablet for use as controller in "head down" gameplay = great. You're looking at what you're touching. Fine.

A tablet for use as controller in "head up" gameplay = bonkers. You look at the big screen in in front of you, and try to control by touching one you're not looking at?

A none market.


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## editor (Oct 23, 2012)

Wait, this can't be right. According to Apple's site the wi-fi model doesn't have GPS: 
http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/


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## paolo (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Wait, this can't be right. According to Apple's site the wi-fi model doesn't have GPS:
> http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/


 
Interesting. Either a minor cock up on the web page, or a rather more significant omission if it turns out that's the actual spec.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


> A tablet for use as controller in "head down" gameplay = great. You're looking at what you're touching. Fine.
> 
> A tablet for use as controller in "head up" gameplay = bonkers. You look at the big screen in in front of you, and try to control by touching one you're not looking at?
> 
> A none market.


 
Depends on the game and the controls, you don't look at your joypad when you're playing you look at the screen.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 24, 2012)

iPads and Touches are not joypads. They have no tactile feedback. They don't work as remotes for realtime apps.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> iPads and Touches are not joypads. They have no tactile feedback. They don't work as remotes for realtime apps.


 
The real time issue is a bigger one that not being able to hold a device while looking at the screen. It's very easy to lose sight of the thing in your hand if the controls make sense and the game is immersive enough.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

Something interesting I'm seeing amongst some friends is this almost incredulous attitude about Apple doing a mini, lots of comments about Apple losing it, no longer innovating and basically jumping the shark.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


> Interesting. Either a minor cock up on the web page, or a rather more significant omission if it turns out that's the actual spec.


There has to GPS. Who would want a tablet without GPS? Loads of apps and services use it and without it, the tablet's going to be a whole lot less useful.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 24, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The real time issue is a bigger one that not being able to hold a device while looking at the screen. It's very easy to lose sight of the thing in your hand if the controls make sense and the game is immersive enough.


The issue has never been about holding a device while looking at the screen. It is about having feedback from controls. Even _on the same screen_, touch apps have to account for "thumb slippage" for good control mechanisms. That only gets worse when the "control pad" is not even in the same sightline.


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## paolo (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> There has to GPS. Who would want a tablet without GPS? Loads of apps and services use it and without it, the tablet's going to be a whole lot less useful.


 
Would certainly be a very big neg (or, looking it another way, price inflater) for a car driver - and their home market has a plenty of those.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Apple iPad Mini vs Google Nexus 7 vs Amazon Kindle Fire HD
http://www.techdigest.tv/2012/10/apple_ipad_mini_2.html


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


> Would certainly be a very big neg (or, looking it another way, price inflater) for a car driver - and their home market has a plenty of those.


It's got to be a web fuck up.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Apple iPad Mini vs Google Nexus 7 vs Amazon Kindle Fire HD
> http://www.techdigest.tv/2012/10/apple_ipad_mini_2.html


Three paragraphs on apps lol


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

See its the kind of bullshit written in that article about apps that makes me rant about the subject. A reality distortion field that isnt from apple!


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## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

wifi only ipads have never had GPS


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## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


> Interesting. Either a minor cock up on the web page, or a rather more significant omission if it turns out that's the actual spec.


 
That's a bigger fuckup than Google's omission of a rear facing camera.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> wifi only ipads have never had GPS


If that's the case then the Mini sure looks like it's lacking a _really_ major feature compared to substantially cheaper GPS-equipped tablets like the Nexus 7.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> That's a bigger fuckup than Google's omission of a rear facing camera.


And some. I use GPS on my Nexus every day - particularly for the rather fabulous Google Now feature.


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## wurlycurly (Oct 24, 2012)

Can't wait for the review from the terminally discredited Charles Arthur. Surely even he can't award the mini five stars, given the price and screen resolution. His disclaimer on the Guardian's live blog spoke volumes:
"Oh, and note our disclaimer._ Along with a number of other European and UK journalists, Charles Arthur's travel and accommodation was paid by Apple."_
17:35 BST


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

iPhones and iPads use aGPS which need a cellular signal to triangulate. The wifi only models can only obtain a rough location through wifi hotspots.


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## paolo (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> wifi only ipads have never had GPS


 
Ahhh... had forgotten that myself.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

wurlycurly said:


> Can't wait for the review from the terminally discredited Charles Arthur. Surely even he can't award the mini five stars, given the price and screen resolution. His disclaimer on the Guardian's live blog spoke volumes:
> "Oh, and note our disclaimer._ Along with a number of other European and UK journalists, Charles Arthur's travel and accommodation was paid by Apple."_
> 17:35 BST


He's gone beyond comedy now, but I'm sure he'll manage another five star number.


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> And some. I use GPS on my Nexus every day - particularly for the rather fabulous Google Now feature.


 
Depends how quick you want to drain your battery I spose.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 24, 2012)

They don't have GPS specifically - they have location tracking though. Which works. In fact they say to enable wifi if you've got it disabled to get better location tracking results.


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## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> And some. I use GPS on my Nexus every day - particularly for the rather fabulous Google Now feature.


 
I never used Google Now for the first week or two of owning the N7, was a pleasant surprise. It's great for planning journeys, it's something I never thought I'd use but I wouldn't like to not have it now (boomtish).


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> iPhones and iPads use aGPS which need a cellular signal to triangulate. The wifi only models can only obtain a rough location through wifi hotspots.


The GPS on my Nexus 7 works brilliantly. No cellular signal needed.

If the Mini really doesn't have any kind of GPS, then it really is a massive omission.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Depends how quick you want to drain your battery I spose.


And why would it do that then?

It turns on when I need it and turns off when I don't. Battery life is great.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> And why would it do that then?


 
Because GPS is a power hungry beast which drains batteries very quickly.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Because GPS is a power hungry beast which drains batteries very quickly.


See my (amended) post above. I get an excellent battery life out of the Nexus 7 and the GPS only turns on when it's needed. Or are you actually going to argue that having GPS built in is some kind of bad thing now?


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

I wonder how much a GPS chip costs? Can't be that expensive, I have seen them in compact digital cameras for about £180 - but the biggest complaint about said cameras is if you have the GPS and flash on you'll only take about 30 pics before the battery is flat!!


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Or are you actually going to argue that having GPS built in is some kind of bad thing now?


 
Jesus wept man, stop looking for arguments all the time where there are none, I never said anything of the sort ffs 

Google Now obviously uses your GPS quite heavily, that's how it works. GPS continuously looks for satellite signals and can drain your battery very rapidly, some people may prefer to not have it on constantly in order to preserve battery life. That is all I was saying.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Google Now obviously uses your GPS quite heavily, that's how it works. GPS continuously looks for satellite signals and can drain your battery very rapidly, some people may prefer to not have it on constantly in order to preserve battery life. That is all I was saying.


OK. But just so you know: I leave GPS switched on all the time and the battery lasts all day.


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Jesus wept man, stop looking for arguments all the time where there are none, I never said anything of the sort ffs
> 
> Google Now obviously uses your GPS quite heavily, that's how it works. GPS continuously looks for satellite signals and can drain your battery very rapidly, some people may prefer to not have it on constantly in order to preserve battery life. That is all I was saying.


 

I think it only uses the GPS when the app is actually running in full screen to preserve battery life. I am not entirely sure, I will check though as you have me wondering now. For what it is worth I used the tracking software to record my journey in a car, it tells you elevation, average speed and all sorts. It swallows a fair bit of juice but nothing alarming. I reckon you could probably record your journey for 8 to 10 hours before it ran out of juice.

Whatever though, the omission of GPS is a real kink in the iPad's armour.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Tbf, it's not a new chink, though. It's a chink that's existed in every wifi iPad to date, and which apparently raddles my iPad 2.

I'm guessing it raddles the iPad 4, too?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd say its more of an issue on the mini than the full size version. Lends itself to being a portable navigation device a bit better.

Although seeing as we've got to version 4 of the iPad before anyone has noticed it can't be that much of an issue.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

Good point.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone know if the mini 'will blend' yet or is it too early?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I wish I had your disposable income.


 
eh?
I save 100 quid a month and haven't bought anything tech for over 8 months.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Anyone know if the mini 'will blend' yet or is it too early?


I only discovered recently that those are ads for a blender company, and the bloke doing it is the CEO / founder / owner (or similar).

Which made me like them even more.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd say its more of an issue on the mini than the full size version. Lends itself to being a portable navigation device a bit better.
> 
> Although seeing as we've got to version 4 of the iPad before anyone has noticed it can't be that much of an issue.


It will be when you try to use the maps. Or get directions. Or look up public transport times. Or use any of the many, many location based apps that need an accurate fix to function properly.

I'd never buy a phone or a tablet without GPS. It seems an utterly bizarre omission to me.


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## Winot (Oct 24, 2012)

I hadn't appreciated (or had forgotten) that my wifi-only iPad2 hasn't got GPS - I don't take it out and about very often (it's used mainly for quick web surfing to save going upstairs to the desktop).

However, as the main difference between the full-blown iPad and the iPad mini is the latter's portability, it seems a bit bizarre not to include GPS.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd never buy a phone or a tablet without GPS.


 Millions of people have, though.

Could someone here with a wifi-only ipad report back on how well the location service works?


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## Winot (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Could someone here with a wifi-only ipad report back on how well the location service works?


 
Well it knows exactly where my house is, but as noted above that's its usual location. 

Does anyone know what the accuracy of wifi location service depends on?


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Winot said:


> Well it knows exactly where my house is, but as noted above that's its usual location.


Likewise.

Though, again, I've never relied on it out of the house.



> Does anyone know what the accuracy of wifi location service depends on?


afaik, it's triangulation on the basis of known wifi hotspots.

But don't quote me on that!


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

> If Location Services is on, your device will periodically send the geo-tagged locations of nearby Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers in an anonymous and encrypted form to Apple, to augment the crowd-sourced database of Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower locations.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> afaik, it's triangulation on the basis of known wifi hotspots.
> 
> But don't quote me on that!


 
That's certainly how it works on my iPod touch (not that I ever use the location services).


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> It will be when you try to use the maps. Or get directions. Or look up public transport times. Or use any of the many, many location based apps that need an accurate fix to function properly.
> 
> I'd never buy a phone or a tablet without GPS. It seems an utterly bizarre omission to me.


It does seem a tad odd to leave it out on something that's being touted as more portable, yeah.

That said, for what I want one for it's irrelevant anyway. It will get used for a certain set of work related apps and that's it.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Millions of people have, though.


Things are moving on in the mobile market though - there's loads more smaller tablets designed for more portability and there's loads more apps and services that require accurate location information.

A 7" tablet makes for a great satnav device. Well, it would if it had GPS. Wi-Fi triangulation is going to useless once you get out of cities.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It does seem a tad odd to leave it out on something that's being touted as more portable, yeah.
> 
> That said, for what I want one for it's irrelevant anyway. It will get used for a certain set of work related apps and that's it.


I'm guessing it'll be flagged up more on the 3G / 'more portable' model (?)

My first thoughts wrt the Mini were that if I got one, it'd be primarily for a different variety at-home use, which - tbh - is why it looked irrelevant to me atm.

If I was looking at something primarily / largely for out of the house, it'd be 3G. For me, at least. I guess only sales figures will tell!

Also leaves room for a GPS upgrade come version two, alongside a Retina display!


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## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Also leaves room for a GPS upgrade come version two


6 months time then


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I'm guessing it'll be flagged up more on the 3G / 'more portable' model (?)


I think "more expensive" is the phrase you're looking for here.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> A 7" tablet makes for a great satnav device. Well, it would if it had GPS. Wi-Fi triangulation is going to useless once you get out of cities.


Stop me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Apple's maps apps rely on having access to data (3G / wifi) in order to provide directions. I don't *think* they have stored databases of maps - but could be mistaken.

In fact, let me check that... Turn airplane mode on -> open maps -> message appears stating 'turn mobile / wifi data on to use maps.'

So... wouldn't it be useless anyway, with wifi-only, and GPS? The way that Apple's maps app currently works, at least? (And the way that it's Google maps predecessor worked n all).


e2a: close Maps and start again, get message stating 'the maps server is currently unavailable.'


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> A 7" tablet makes for a great satnav device. Well, it would if it had GPS. Wi-Fi triangulation is going to useless once you get out of cities.


 
Wi fi triangulation is useless for actually navigating anyway, just a bit handy for some services if you're sat in a coffee shop or something.  I don't see why a satnav needs to be any bigger than a phone (not saying a 7'' tablet is bad for that, just seems a bit big).


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> Wi fi triangulation is useless for actually navigating anyway, just a bit handy for some services if you're sat in a coffee shop or something. I don't see why a satnav needs to be any bigger than a phone (not saying a 7'' tablet is bad for that, just seems a bit big).


The top of the range satnavs usually come with screens bigger than your average phone.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> The top of the range satnavs usually come with screens bigger than your average phone.


And a stored database of maps?


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> And a stored database of maps?


Usually, yes, just like you can load up on to a Nexus.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Usually, yes, just like you can load up on to a Nexus.


OK; those aren't - again afaict - currently available on Apple's maps app. Nor were they available on the Google maps app that preceded it.

So your criticism is a bit broader than just a lack of GPS - it cuts right back to the way the maps app works (and has worked, since before the introduction of the first wifi-only iPad / iPod touch).


----------



## Winot (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> My first thoughts wrt the Mini were that if I got one, it'd be primarily for a different variety at-home use, which - tbh - is why it looked irrelevant to me atm.


 
ditto


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> The top of the range satnavs usually come with screens bigger than your average phone.


 
Never seen one with a screen _that_ much bigger than a phone.

Maybe they are large-print ones for pensioners...


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> OK; those aren't - again afaict - currently available on Apple's maps app. Nor were they available on the Google maps app that preceded it.
> 
> So your criticism is a bit broader than just a lack of GPS - it cuts right back to the way the maps app works (and has worked, since before the introduction of the first wifi-only iPad / iPod touch).


You seem to be preparing to employ the Reality Distortion Field here so let make it simple: I find GPS extremely useful on my Nexus.

I use it for mapping, directions, finding local businesses and items of interest, weather, checking in, finding the times for the nearest buses and trains etc etc. If I was going away - say for a country walk - I would load up whatever maps I needed on to the device (Ordnance Survey, most likely) and use the GPS when I was out in the wilds.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> Never seen one with a screen _that_ much bigger than a phone.


This highly rated Navman satnav has a 7" screen.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> You seem to be preparing to employ the Reality Distortion Field here so let make it simple: I find GPS extremely useful on my Nexus.


So you're saying that your criticism doesn't cut right back to the way the maps apps on Apple devices currently works, and it would be useful to have a GPS sensor on board that couldn't do anything with the current maps apps, unless someone was connected to wifi?

Because that was my point - that either the maps apps *and* GPS sensor need revising (which may be a very sensible argument) or else it'd be a relatively useless addition _with regard to satnav._

I'm not sure what's reality distorting about that - pointing out that either broader change is necessary (fine) or else the addition of GPS isn't much use for satnav (fine).



> I use it for mapping, directions, finding local businesses and items of interest, weather, checking in, finding the times for the nearest buses and trains etc etc. If I was going away - say for a country walk - I would load up whatever maps I needed on to the device (Ordnance Survey, most likely) and use the GPS when I was out in the wilds.


Great. Finding local businesses and items of interest, finding the weather, checking in, and finding the times for the nearest buses and trains all require data connections, don't they?

Unless they're not in real time, and / or working from pre-loaded databases? I'm tempted to wonder how much hassle it is to type in where you are, if you're working from an on-device database; but, ok, let's presume that GPS would be of great benefit there.

The one distinctive feature you're outlining there is mapping / satnav. Absolutely fine.

Like I say - you're then also suggesting that a change needs to take place in the way the mapping apps currently work, so that they store data. Aren't you?

How the hell is that a 'reality distortion field' kicking in, unless you're suggesting some form of magical appearing-map that is neither stored nor downloaded?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

I guess the lack of GPS being a major pain depends on how you see it - is the mini something you would take out with you as a replacement to your smartphone, or as an additional device to compliment it?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> So you're saying that your criticism doesn't cut right back to the way the maps apps on Apple devices currently works, and it would be useful to have a GPS sensor on board that couldn't do anything with the current maps apps, unless someone was connected to wifi?


You are aware that you can save Google Maps data offline and still use then for satnav directions without a connection, yes?

Or you can just download any of many mapping apps and use the Nexus as a fully fledged satnav without any data connection at all?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I guess the lack of GPS being a major pain depends on how you see it - is the mini something you would take out with you as a replacement to your smartphone, or as an additional device to compliment it?


It would seem a little odd to have that big iPad screen in front of you but then be forced to look at maps and directions on your phone. Least it would to me, but no doubt someone  will be along soon to say it's actually better not to have GPS on a tablet.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> You are aware that you can save Google Maps data offline and still use then for satnav directions without a connection, yes?
> 
> Or you can just download any of many mapping apps and use the Nexus as a fully fledged satnav without any data connection at all?


Third-party does make sense. But would've been an amazing break for Apple - adding functionality that only worked with third-party apps 

The GPS on a wifi only model would be useless - at present - without DLing third party apps, and without a change in the current Apple apps map, though.

Maybe that'll be something they're looking at (wrt both the apps and the sensor) in the 2nd gen. Maybe not, mind 

I guess the sales figures'll be the best way of telling how bad a decision this was!


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Third-party does make sense. But would've been an amazing break for Apple - adding functionality that only worked with third-party apps


You can get full offline satnav capabilities on the Nexus 7 using only Google apps, simply by saving the maps you need.

Anyone looking for full country-wide full  satnav with no need for a data connection can just download one of the many excellent apps available. It's pretty damn good for £159.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> This highly rated Navman satnav has a 7" screen.


 
Yes, referred to in the article as 'massive', and both a pro and con for that reason, with a mention that most 'premium' models have a 4.3 inch screen.  Not saying it's too big to be useful, but would be a bit clunky in a lot of cars.  Looks to be aimed at the the truck and coach driver market.


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Apples vague attempts in the past to pretend Siri was only available for newer devices because of the spec of those devices always smelt funny. Given that the ipad mini is basically a shrunken ipad 2, and that it seems to have Siri, I think that lie is now dead. 

Couple this with the 4th gen ipad announcement and I can see the scene now. A million angry ipad 2 & ipad 3 owners converge on Apple in disgust, but somehow find themselves in the queue for a new ipad or ipad mini


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> Yes, referred to in the article as 'massive', and both a pro and con for that reason, with a mention that most 'premium' models have a 4.3 inch screen. Not saying it's too big to be useful, but would be a bit clunky in a lot of cars. Looks to be aimed at the the truck and coach driver market.


For sure. But most decent satnavs are bigger than 3.5".


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

All this GPS talk solves the mystery of why I couldnt see my location in a nice offline maps app when I took it on a train to wales over a year ago, the lack of GPS in the wifi-only models had escaped my attention


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> For sure. But most decent satnavs are bigger than 3.5".


 
A bit - generally closer to phone size than 7'' tablet size, still.  I doubt if you're on foot that 7'' tablet is any better than a phone for satnav purposes.  Actually, if I was on foot somewhere I was unfamiliar with I think I'd like a navigation device I could use as unobtrusively as possible.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> A bit - generally closer to phone size than 7'' tablet size, still. I doubt if you're on foot that 7'' tablet is any better than a phone for satnav purposes. Actually, if I was on foot somewhere I was unfamiliar with I think I'd like a navigation device I could use as unobtrusively as possible.


I got Artichoke a 3G iPad partly because she's been traveling extensively recently and wanted data, partly because she was likely to get lost.

She refuses to use it for navigation because of ^^^ that. Convinced it'll be swiped.

A full 10" tablet is hardly unobtrusive, mind.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 24, 2012)

I use navigon on my iPhone...... its brill and I paid £30 for it I think.....

Much better than a tom tom where you have to buy the satnav, and then pay for the map updates in the form of a subscription....


----------



## Sunray (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Things are moving on in the mobile market though - there's loads more smaller tablets designed for more portability and there's loads more apps and services that require accurate location information.
> 
> A 7" tablet makes for a great satnav device. Well, it would if it had GPS. Wi-Fi triangulation is going to useless once you get out of cities.


 
My iPhone has flawlessly got me from a to b many many times.  Not once have I been driving along, thinking that the display could do with being bigger. I don't want my journey to be my last so I tend to be looking at the road not at my sat nav's screen. Sat Navs are all about the turn by turn announcements.

All I see is a issue with mounting something as large as a mini (or any 7" device) to my Dash.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 24, 2012)

Sunray said:


> My iPhone has flawlessly got me from a to b many many times. Not once have I been driving along, thinking that the display could do with being bigger. I don't want my journey to be my last so I tend to be looking at the road not at my sat nav's screen. Sat Navs are all about the turn by turn announcements.
> 
> All I see is a issue with mounting something as large as a mini (or any 7" device) to my Dash.


 
Its a bit obtrusive when driving I'd imagine...... if it was mounted into the dash, maybe.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Sunray said:


> My iPhone has flawlessly got me from a to b many many times. Not once have I been driving along, thinking that the display could do with being bigger. I don't want my journey to be my last so I tend to be looking at the road not at my sat nav's screen. Sat Navs are all about the turn by turn announcements.


Strange then that so many satnav companies have elected to go for larger screens in their premium models. Anyway, it's academic for this thread because the iPad Mini is totally useless as a satnav.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> A bit - generally closer to phone size than 7'' tablet size, still. I doubt if you're on foot that 7'' tablet is any better than a phone for satnav purposes. Actually, if I was on foot somewhere I was unfamiliar with I think I'd like a navigation device I could use as unobtrusively as possible.


I absolutely intend to take my Nexus 7 with me when I go walking in Wales and I will be very grateful for the bigger screen. When you're using Ordnance Survey maps it really does help to get more of a picture of your surroundings.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 24, 2012)

I still feel they missed an opportunity on the mini price, particularly as the presentation targeted the 'unnamed' android. All they've really done is given the opposition time to improve/increase their apps.

Why they chose now to get an iPad3 increment out of the way, kind of suggest to me some major review might be on the way to address growing competition.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I absolutely intend to take my Nexus 7 with me when I go walking in Wales and I will be very grateful for the bigger screen. When you're using Ordnance Survey maps it really does help to get more of a picture of your surroundings.


Would that be tethered to your phone?


----------



## Structaural (Oct 24, 2012)

Hipster


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Would that be tethered to your phone?




No, It doesn't need to be.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Strange then that so many satnav companies have elected to go for larger screens in their premium models. Anyway, it's academic for this thread because the iPad Mini is totally useless as a satnav.


 
Yeah, but the 7'' is the exception for truck and coach drivers.  Though in reference to your other post, I can totally see how if you're up in yonder hills the 7'' Nexus tablet might work really well, and be good for getting a good appreciation of the terrain.

In a car, for the basic 'not getting lost' functionality, I find it's the diagrams showing what exit I need etc. that are the most useful, so a little screen is fine.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Structaural said:


> Hipster


Fortunately the screen is big enough to show all the nearest vintage clothing stores, pop up shops and trendy coffee bars.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> Yeah, but the 7'' is the exception for truck and coach drivers. Though in reference to your other post, I can totally see how if you're up in yonder hills the 7'' Nexus tablet might work really well, and be good for getting a good appreciation of the terrain.
> 
> In a car, for the basic 'not getting lost' functionality, I find it's the diagrams showing what exit I need etc. that are the most useful, so a little screen is fine.


7" is perhaps a tad mahoosive for some, but you'd prefer a larger screen to a 3.5" one, no?

I've known several people who upgraded to the S3 for that very reason.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I absolutely intend to take my Nexus 7 with me when I go walking in Wales and I will be very grateful for the bigger screen. When you're using Ordnance Survey maps it really does help to get more of a picture of your surroundings.


 
I really really hope you'll be carrying map and compass as well!

I've seen people wondering about in the hills with phones, but I've yet to see someone naving with a tablet!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm actually tempted to repost that in UK Climbing just for the lols.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 24, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> I really really hope you'll be carrying map and compass as well!
> 
> I've seen people wondering about in the hills with phones, but I've yet to see someone naving with a tablet!


 
Bloody tablets! Blocking our scenery!!!


----------



## Crispy (Oct 24, 2012)

Not to diminish ed's joy and utility of his tablet, but I'd much rather have a paper map while walking, as it can't run out of battery or stop working when wet.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> I'm actually tempted to repost that in UK Climbing just for the lols.


 
Blatant context abuse tbf.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Not to diminish ed's joy and utility of his tablet, but I'd much rather have a paper map while walking, as it can't run out of battery or stop working when wet.



I'd rather that I could come on to a thread about the iPad mini and actually find posts about it rather than have to wade through yet another Android lovefest!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 24, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I'd rather that I could come on to a thread about the iPad mini and actually find posts about it rather than have to wade through yet another Android lovefest!



Moon on a stick eh?


----------



## ChrisD (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Not to diminish ed's joy and utility of his tablet, but I'd much rather have a paper map while walking, as it can't run out of battery or stop working when wet.


agreed... but apps like Grid Refs finder can be very useful confirmation of position.  The Sustrans/National Cycle Network app  also allows chunks of Ordnance Survey (1:25K) to be downloaded onto device.   I'm about to use a Samsung Note 2 for mapping but agree that a 7 or 8 inch tablet would be handy.


----------



## paolo (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Not to diminish ed's joy and utility of his tablet, but I'd much rather have a paper map while walking, as it can't run out of battery or stop working when wet.


 


editor said:


> Call me crazy, but I'm not really a fan of walking around unfamiliar streets brandishing an expensive smartphone that's all nicely lit up to attract the attention of any nearby mugger.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


>


tbf, I think he's talking about walking in the countryside


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


>


Oh how very clever, but it's a shame that all the effort has made you look a bit of an arse because I *specifically* said I'd be using it for walking in the countryside. I don't think you get many muggers at night on the Brecon Beacons anyway.

FYI: I've no intention of navigating around city streets at night with a tablet of any description in my hand. In fact, I try not to do that with my phone either.

Still, thanks for the pointlessly disruptive comment.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Not to diminish ed's joy and utility of his tablet, but I'd much rather have a paper map while walking, as it can't run out of battery or stop working when wet.


Me too, but you're surely not going to deny the convenience of having a handy GPS equipped map in your backpack as well?

I've got 1:50000 Ordnance Survey maps for the the entire South Wales area (10199 sq miles) on my Nexus and it's a bit easier to carry around than a great big pile of physical maps.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Have we established that the mini doesn't have GPS on the wifi only model?

We have?

Would we all agree that it'd be a BAD move for anyone to buy one, if one of their key requirements was GPS?

We have?

Awesome. 

Is that sorted, then?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> I really really hope you'll be carrying map and compass as well!
> 
> I've seen people wondering about in the hills with phones, but I've yet to see someone naving with a tablet!


This guy does.* The Google Nexus 7 – a backpacking essential?*
http://walkwildscotland.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/the-google-nexus-7-a-backpacking-essential/


----------



## paolo (Oct 24, 2012)

Handy for taking photos too. If you've already got it in your hand, why not?


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd say its more of an issue on the mini than the full size version. Lends itself to being a portable navigation device a bit better.


s

Yup, I knew it was missing on my iPad but I assumed that was because it was the first generation and it hasn't been a big miss TBH, but as you say it is an issue on the iPad mini. How will people know where their friends are sending tweets from now?!


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

paolo said:


> Handy for taking photos too. If you've already got it in your hand, why not?


Why would you have it in your hand if it's useless for any kind of country walking navigation?

Oh, I get it, It's another of your backfiring smartarse comments. How _veh_ tiresome.


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Could someone here with a wifi-only ipad report back on how well the location service works?


 
Shit. The last time I used the facility it had me down as being in Telford when I was at home. Only 250 miles out, in the wrong city and county


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

Sunray said:


> My iPhone has flawlessly got me from a to b many many times. Not once have I been driving along, thinking that the display could do with being bigger. I don't want my journey to be my last so I tend to be looking at the road not at my sat nav's screen. Sat Navs are all about the turn by turn announcements.
> 
> All I see is a issue with mounting something as large as a mini (or any 7" device) to my Dash.


 
I think for traversing around cities and major roads any smartphone or mini tableet will be perfectly adequate. It is when you get dickheads like this that GPS and Satnav get a bad name.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> It is when you get dickheads like this that GPS and Satnav get a bad name.


LOL. What a bunch of idiots!


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> LOL. What a bunch of idiots!


 
That's nothing, there was a thread about it in General and there was people who couldn't see anything wrong with relying on your iPhone for hiking in the Highlands and said they'd do the same. 

Evolution in action.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

If you can't use a map and compass you shouldn't be out walking in the hills, end of.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If you can't use a map and compass you shouldn't be out walking in the hills, end of.


 
Ah, but what if your map went soggy and fell apart and there was a big shift in the earth's magnetic field, eh?

I dunno, these people and their naive belief in their technology.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 24, 2012)

It does seem quite over-priced. The top end iPad actually becomes a slightly better deal and the Nexus 7 is just a superb deal.
Also with Apple's dodgy exchange rate it's going to be priced at $430 and $425 dollars over here for the basic model. £269 and €329 respectively. 
It's the markup on NAND that gets my goat, there's no way an extra 16GB should cost an extra €100 - when going from 32GB to 64GB is also an extra €100. 
Nah, not for me. I'll carry on with my desktop and iPhone, I've still no use for an iPad at those prices.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 24, 2012)

8ball said:


> Ah, but what if your map went soggy and fell apart and there was a big shift in the earth's magnetic field, eh?
> 
> I dunno, these people and their naive belief in their technology.


 
You're they type that never leaves the house.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> It would seem a little odd to have that big iPad screen in front of you but then be forced to look at maps and directions on your phone. Least it would to me, but no doubt someone will be along soon to say it's actually better not to have GPS on a tablet.


Been thinking about this and the way I'd want to use these devices. My phone is always in my pocket, wherever I go. So that's the item I'd naturally turn to for direction, find a local cab number and so on.

A tablet would be in my bag for when I'm sat in a pub, a hotel room or on a train, where I'm more likely to be browsing, reading articles, writing an email or typing up an invoice etc. From this POV the lack of GPS isn't that big an issue.

I think the trick is to not see any one of these devices in isolation, they need to be looked at as a system, the manufactures expect you to own many of their toys, not just one.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Been thinking about this and the way I'd want to use these devices. My phone is always in my pocket, wherever I go. So that's the item I'd naturally turn to for direction, find a local cab number and so on.
> 
> A tablet would be in my bag for when I'm sat in a pub, a hotel room or on a train, where I'm more likely to be browsing, reading articles, writing an email or typing up an invoice etc. From this POV the lack of GPS isn't that big an issue.
> 
> I think the trick is to not see any one of these devices in isolation, they need to be looked at as a system, the manufactures expect you to own many of their toys, not just one.


Nah, that's bollocks. You're making excuses for something that really should be built in - in fact, it's something that _is_ built into most small tablets, and there's a damn good reason for that.

After all, how can it not be more convenient to be able to look up maps, view address details, browse transport times, look for local businesses, see what films are being shown locally, check out local shops etc etc etc on *both* devices? Why would anyone choose to view a map on a small screen when they're carrying a larger one?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If you can't use a map and compass you shouldn't be out walking in the hills, end of.


That's really quite a daft generalisation. Not all hill walks take you through the wild, wild wilderness on paths that are miles from anywhere where danger lurks at every bend.

many walks are clearly signposted affairs that often take you nicely around a village or two, preferably ending up in a lovely pub. I don't think I need a compass for those.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Nah, that's bollocks. You're making excuses for something that really should be built in - in fact, it's something that _is_ built into most small tablets, and there's a damn good reason for that.
> 
> After all, how can it not be more convenient to be able to look up maps, view address details, browse transport times, look for local businesses, see what films are being shown locally, check out local shops etc etc etc on *both* devices? Why would anyone choose to view a map on a small screen when they're carrying a larger one?


Becuase, as I said, when I'm out and about the small device is _always_ with me in my pocket, a tablet would be, at best, in my bag. I'd pick the device that was easier to use at the time.

I'm not saying that the lack of GPS is a great thing, I'm saying I can see the rationale behind it. The fact that we're only now having this discussion, after years of the iPad being available, suggests it's really not that big a deal for larger tablets. Time will tell when it comes to the new small one...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> That's really quite a daft generalisation. Not all hill walks take you through the wild, wild wilderness on paths that are miles from anywhere where danger lurks at every bend.
> 
> many walks are clearly signposted affairs that often take you nicely around a village or two, preferably ending up in a lovely pub. I don't think I need a compass for those.


"the hills"


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> "the hills"


Yes. A landform that extends above the surrounding terrain.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'm not saying that the lack of GPS is a great thing, I'm saying I can see the rationale behind it.


The only rationale is profit.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes. A landform that extends above the surrounding terrain.


And in the context of a conversation about some daft fuckers getting lost in the Cairngorms clearly referred to slightly more taxing terrain than a stroll round the village pubs


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And in the context of a conversation about some daft fuckers getting lost in the Cairngorms clearly referred to slightly more taxing terrain than a stroll round the village pubs


So you'd like to amend your original post to something a little less sweeping? Might be an idea.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> The only rationale is profit.


And the knowledge that a huge percentage of the people buying it will own a smart(i)phone so won't consider it as an essential requirement.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> So you'd like to amend your original post to something a little less sweeping? Might be an idea.


Nah. Sweeping is fine.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Nah. Sweeping is fine.


And incorrect.


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh well, its got a compass at least


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And the knowledge that a huge percentage of the people buying it will own a smart(i)phone so won't consider it as an essential requirement.


Or would go with the 3G!


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

Relying solely on an iPhone to hike in somewhere as extreme as the Cairngorms is more than a bit daft. If you're going to go hiking in one of the remotest and hostile environments in the country which claim lives every year then you need to be adequately equipped. Take a satnav if you want, but make sure it is a satnav that is rugged enough to take the punishment of harsh weather, knocks and bangs. No smart phone, tablet or other such device is designed for that. It was never in the designer's remit to be used as mountaineering equipment. You should also carry a paper map and compass in case the GPS fails.

Going for a stroll across the countryside to a pub is a different matter altogether and any smartphone or tablet with GPS would be up to the job. In fact you don't even really need one as there's often plenty of sign posts, styles and established well worn paths to guide the way.

Obviously an iPad would be as much use as tit's on a bull in any situation as it hasn't got GPS.


----------



## gabi (Oct 24, 2012)

if it's that big a deal just buy a cheap adapter


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> Obviously an iPad would be as much use as tit's on a bull in any situation as it hasn't got GPS.


tbf, that was clarified 5 full pages ago 

wrt the wifi only version, at least


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> tbf, that was clarified 5 full pages ago
> 
> wrt the wifi only version, at least


 
I am filling in for JC2


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

gabi said:


> if it's that big a deal just buy a cheap adapter


Yeah! That looks great!


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Nah, that's bollocks. You're making excuses for something that really should be built in - in fact, it's something that _is_ built into most small tablets, and there's a damn good reason for that.
> 
> After all, how can it not be more convenient to be able to look up maps, view address details, browse transport times, look for local businesses, see what films are being shown locally, check out local shops etc etc etc on *both* devices? Why would anyone choose to view a map on a small screen when they're carrying a larger one?


 
So you don't look like one of these braying iPad toting hipsters who waves their tablet about while walking down the street.


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

gabi said:


> if it's that big a deal just buy a cheap adapter


 
I like the fact they included an LED on there so you know that you have it attached. Should you forget that you have a badly made cheap lump of plastic stuck to your expensive tablet


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> The only rationale is profit.


 
Not really, the wifi and cellular iPads are almost like two different devices aimed at two different markets.

The wi-fi only model is aimed at those who mainly want to use their tablet around the home or office where they always have an access point. They can still always tether their tablet to their phone the occasional times they need to make use of mobile internet or data while out and about.

The more expensive cellular version is for busy road warriors on the move who need instant always-on connectivity.

I think it's good that they give the consumer the choice not to pay for features that they would rarely ever use.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Not really, the wifi and cellular iPads are almost like two different devices aimed at two different markets.
> 
> The wi-fi only model is aimed at those who mainly want to use their tablet around the home or office where they always have an access point. They can still always tether their tablet to their phone the occasional times they need to make use of mobile internet or data while out and about.
> 
> ...


So how much do you think these stay-at-home tablet users are saving by not having GPS then?

Not even slightly convinced by your argument that all these people who buy the cheaper model don't want GPS, by the way. I want GPS on all my phones and tablets. And they all have it too!


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> So you don't look like one of these braying iPad toting hipsters who waves their tablet about while walking down the street.


Who mentioned "walking down the street"? Not me, that's for sure.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> The only rationale is profit.


or that knowing your precise position on planet earth is pointless when kitted into a device that uses the very inaccurate Apple Maps.
But more likely profit driven.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 24, 2012)

gabi said:


> if it's that big a deal just buy a cheap adapter


They're obsolete now, no? make that 2 adapters


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> So how much do you think these stay-at-home tablet users are saving by not having GPS then?


 
Well the difference in price between a wi-fi only iPad mini and the 4G iPad mini is £100, and that's before you even factor in the price of the contract and data etc.



> Not even slightly convinced by your argument that all these people who buy the cheaper model don't want GPS, by the way. I want GPS on all my phones and tablets. And they all have it too!


 
So because you want it, everyone else obviously wants it ? Great logic that 

Why would someone who mainly uses their tablet as a device for the home need GPS ? Especially when the majority I imagine, would already be smartphone users who have GPS on an alternative device that they carry with them while out and about. All they have to do anyway is tether their smartphone. Something you seemed to think wasn't a big deal for Nexus users who need to use mobile data.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> This guy does.* The Google Nexus 7 – a backpacking essential?*
> http://walkwildscotland.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/the-google-nexus-7-a-backpacking-essential/


 
Except he has only owned it two days and was talking about on a four day trip using it two hours a day. Personally I like to look at my map a whole lot more often then that.

On a related note, but not limited just to tablets, I've got deep concerns about these kind of navigation devices. It's very easy to follow a red dot on screen, absolutely sure of your position. Then the battery packs up and people find there nav skills aren't quite what they thought/havn't been paying enough attention to the map. There has already been a number of mountain rescue call outs where this has happened. I've used memory map in the hills and it is a great tool, but I can really understand how you can fall in this trap.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> Relying solely on an iPhone to hike in somewhere as extreme as the Cairngorms is more than a bit daft. If you're going to go hiking in one of the remotest and hostile environments in the country which claim lives every year then you need to be adequately equipped. Take a satnav if you want, but make sure it is a satnav that is rugged enough to take the punishment of harsh weather, knocks and bangs. No smart phone, tablet or other such device is designed for that. It was never in the designer's remit to be used as mountaineering equipment. You should also carry a paper map and compass in case the GPS fails.
> 
> Going for a stroll across the countryside to a pub is a different matter altogether and any smartphone or tablet with GPS would be up to the job. In fact you don't even really need one as there's often plenty of sign posts, styles and established well worn paths to guide the way.
> 
> Obviously an iPad would be as much use as tit's on a bull in any situation as it hasn't got GPS.


 
It's not just the places Cairngorms though that catch people out...even places like I based, like the Peak District catch there fair share of people not being properly equipped, because it's not mountaineering and most of the time you will get away without proper kit. The weather turns quickly like it did this week and you can't see more then a few feet in front of you. 

It's also all well and good carrying a map and compass in case the GPS fails, but micro nav is bloody hard work. If you don't regularly practice these skills, then the chances are you won't be able to do it when needed.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> So because you want it, everyone else obviously wants it ? Great logic that .


I'd say my logic goes along the lines of observing that just about every single smartphone released in recent times has GPS as does just about every single tablet.

Why do you think they bother with it if folks aren't that interested after all? Any ideas?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> On a related note, but not limited just to tablets, I've got deep concerns about these kind of navigation devices. It's very easy to follow a red dot on screen, absolutely sure of your position. Then the battery packs up and people find there nav skills aren't quite what they thought/havn't been paying enough attention to the map. There has already been a number of mountain rescue call outs where this has happened. I've used memory map in the hills and it is a great tool, but I can really understand how you can fall in this trap.


I'm not suggesting it as a replacement for all-day, hard core hiking but I'll certainly be using it for some of my short walks in Wales. That big screen is great for looking at Ordnance Survey maps.


----------



## peterkro (Oct 24, 2012)

I may be wrong but isn't GPS on the 3G chip in most Apple devices.Therefore you'd assume the wi-fi models don't have true GPS they do have location services but that's not the same as GPS.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

peterkro said:


> I may be wrong but isn't GPS on the 3G chip in most Apple devices.Therefore you'd assume the wi-fi models don't have true GPS they do have location services but that's not the same as GPS.


Yeah, that was now established either 6 or 7 pages ago 

afaict, absolutely nothing new has been added in the intervening pages - other than ed thinks that's bad, other people think it's less bad.

Whether or not that makes a massive impact on sales has yet to be seen.


----------



## peterkro (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry I try to keep out of flame wars.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Sorry I try to keep out of flame wars.


Sensible - afaict this thread's gone pretty much nowhere in the last 140 posts


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> as does just about every single tablet.


 
Apart from all the wifi ipads and the kindle fire and probably some others.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Whether or not that makes a massive impact on sales has yet to be seen.


I'm sure it'll sell by the bucketload regardless courtesy of the Apple brand, but I wouldn't buy a device without GPS.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm sure it'll sell by the bucketload regardless courtesy of the Apple brand, but I wouldn't buy a device without GPS.


If the wifi only version had GPS, that would've been the knee-trembler that got you buying an iPad mini?

At those prices?

Without USB or SD card slots?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> Apart from all the wifi ipads and the kindle fire and probably some others.


That's a handful of models.  My point remains correct.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> If the wifi only version had GPS, that would've been the knee-trembler that got you buying an iPad mini?
> 
> At those prices?
> 
> Without USB or SD card slots?


Why would I pay nearly £100 more for a tablet with a lower res screen? No thanks.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Why would I pay nearly £100 more for a tablet with a lower res screen? No thanks.


Exactly 

So how the hell has your dislike of it's lack of GPS managed to spin this thread out to - what? - 6 full pages of discussion? 

Given you reckon it'll sell loads anyway!


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Exactly
> 
> So how the hell has your dislike of it's lack of GPS managed to spin this thread out to - what? - 6 full pages of discussion?
> 
> Given you reckon it'll sell loads anyway!


I think you'll find there's loads of other people posting. You know, people with opinions that might be different to yours.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Yeah, that was now established either 6 or 7 pages ago
> 
> afaict, absolutely nothing new has been added in the intervening pages - other than ed thinks that's bad, other people think it's less bad.
> 
> Whether or not that makes a massive impact on sales has yet to be seen.



This is without doubt one of the most boring thread derails I've seen all year on urban...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

Apparently Apple's target market for the iPad mini is women:

http://qz.com/19314/apple-has-a-clear-target-with-its-ipad-mini-advertising-women/


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

> Three people who sell advertising for media companies tell me that Apple is primarily buying space for iPad Mini ads in publications and on TV shows that cater to women.


Ah yes. Another  fabulously sourced Apple story.


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## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Sensible - afaict this thread's gone pretty much nowhere in the last 140 posts


 
Probably the most well mannered posts I have seen with you, kid e and editor on though


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> Probably the most well mannered post I have seen with you, kid e and editor on though


It's hardly been a 'flame war' by any definition really.


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd say my logic goes along the lines of observing that just about every single smartphone released in recent times has GPS as does just about every single tablet.
> 
> Why do you think they bother with it if folks aren't that interested after all? Any ideas?


 
I explained why earlier in my previous posts, but you seem to have entered the Reality Distortion Field that renders you incapable of reading other people's posts properly. So for that reason, I'm out. I have better things to do with my evening.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I explained why earlier in my previous posts, but you seem to have entered the Reality Distortion Field that renders you incapable of reading other people's posts properly. So for that reason, I'm out. I have better things to do with my evening.


Smoothly retreated.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> I think you'll find there's loads of other people posting. You know, people with opinions that might be different to yours.


Posts on GPS (by my reckoning, from post 670, and up to the beginning of this page):

editor: 43
mrs quoad: 13
firky: 10
bees: 10
8ball: 9
RaverDrew: 7
Crispy: 5
Global Stoner: 4
Paolo: 4

And a few people with 1 or 2 posts. A total of 113 GPS-related posts. To the exclusion of pretty much any other discussion about the Mini since post 670, or thereabouts.

I *think* that a couple of people have expressed mild surprise that the wifi only Mini hasn't got GPS.

I *think* you are the only person consistently arguing it's a really big mistake (and, to a lesser extent, firks) .

And, tbh, I'm still not sure *why* you think it's such a big mistake - which you do seem to think, as you seem to think that people who've suggested it'd meet their needs are 'wrong'. Or that there's still a 'mistake' going on there.

In business terms? You still think it'll sell 'loads,' apparently, so I'm not sure how that'd work. In terms of ripping people off, or mis-selling? Tbh, no-one's going to buy it under false pretenses. Are they? It won't be advertised as having GPS, won't be sold as a satnav, and Apple - afaik - offer 14 days' no quibbles return on anything, should anyone find it doesn't do what they want it to. In terms of selling a product that *should* have more functionality? Why? For business purposes? Or as a moral service?

I don't get what your argument is, and - tbh - I don't feel you're stating it honestly, because - afaict - you're not making any convincing arguments beyond 'but I don't like it.' Unless I've missed them?

What is it that bugs you so much about the lack of GPS? Or the fact that this specific, wifi only version isn't going to be shipped (or advertised) with that capacity / as a satnav?

Or is it something that you can use to derail the thread (which seems to've happened pretty effectively), and / or express your deeper grievances wrt Apple? afaict that makes more sense - GPS seems to be tapping into your sense that Apple are profiteers, selling an inferior product, blah blah blah, with the GPS acting as an excellent peg to hang those grievances on.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Posts on GPS (by my reckoning, from post 670, and up to the beginning of this page):
> 
> editor: 43
> mrs quoad: 13
> ...



Wow. Those are some stark figures. Can we please now move on from this boring 'debate'??


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Posts on GPS (by my reckoning, from post 670, and up to the beginning of this page):
> 
> editor: 43
> mrs quoad: 13
> ...


Fucking hell. You went back and counted them all? You're _*obsessed*!_

I've no idea if those numbers are true - probably not - but I doubt if anyone but you could be arsed to check them anyway.

It was a discussion. People raised points, I discussed them and vice versa. It's how boards work.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyhoos. Anyone else here considering getting a mini? If so, which one?


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Well thanks to everyone for making my rant about nexus software and much earlier discussions about screen resolution look mild by comparison


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Fucking hell. You went back and counted them all? You're _*obsessed*!_
> 
> I've no idea if those numbers are true - probably not - but I doubt if anyone but you could be arsed to check them anyway.
> 
> It was a discussion. People raised points, I discussed them. It's how boards work.


QFT, because your attitude to stats / anyone bothering to check is just too awesome to need any further comment


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> Well thanks to everyone for making my rant about nexus software and much earlier discussions about screen resolution look mild by comparison


Expect a damning statistical analysis of your Nexus posts soon.


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## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Posts on GPS (by my reckoning, from post 670, and up to the beginning of this page):


 
You must be _really_ bored, fella!


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Anyhoos. Anyone else here considering getting a mini? If so, which one?


 
I suppose I'll have to get one for development at some point, the cheapest one. Although in theory I could avoid doing so and just make the right design choices about interface button sizes etc. I do like to test on a range of the actual devices if I can though.

For personal use as a tablet I'm not sure. The nexus 7 is still not quite floating my boat when it comes to apps, although since my last rant I did find a couple of decent apps thanks to suggestions on the nexus 7 thread. I dont like browsing the web on widescreen devices that much. I do like the smaller, lighter tablets. And a number of the music apps I use on the normal ipad support wireless syncing, so adding more iOS devices to my collection means more simultaneous instruments.


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Anyhoos. Anyone else here considering getting a mini? If so, which one?


 
Thought about it for my mum for Christmas but I reckon I'll be able to pick up a reconditioned iPad 2 off ebay for the same price.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

*cough.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

Question - are there many apps yet that are optimised for and/or use the full res of a retina pad? If so, what will happen if you try to run them on a mini or other non retina model?


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## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> *cough.


 


> Counting to 100 (and a bit) take you long, firks?


 
GOTCHA


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

1 ipad, ah ha ha, 2 ipads, ah ha ha, 100 million ipads sold so far, I love to count.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> Thought about it for my mum for Christmas but I reckon I'll be able to pick up a reconditioned iPad 2 off ebay for the same price.


tbh, thinking about something for my dad.

He can't currently receive messages on his phone; and an iPod / iPad mini would give him something that he can pick up emails / iMessages with. And given me, Artichoke and my mum all use iMessages, that'd be a step in a useful direction. (And given he's blind, it'd be connecting him in a way that he otherwise finds difficult).

Could give my sister / BiL my now-spare iPod Touch too, so's they could message him n all 

e2a:


firky said:


> GOTCHA


Yeah. Just wasn't interesting enough, ay?


----------



## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> tbh, thinking about something for my dad.
> 
> He can't currently receive messages on his phone; and an iPod / iPad mini would give him something that he can pick up emails / iMessages with. And given me, Artichoke and my mum all use iMessages, that'd be a step in a useful direction.
> 
> ...


 
Well the reason I probably won't end up getting an iPad Mini or a N7 for my mum is because both are too small for her, it's an eyesight thing. Also for the same price as the most basic mini I reckon you'd be able to pick up an iPad 2 or 3 for the same price or less.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

If you're finding the pricing a bit too steep there's always this: 






http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2012/10/theres-already-an-ipad-mini-knock-off/


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Question - are there many apps yet that are optimised for and/or use the full res of a retina pad? If so, what will happen if you try to run them on a mini or other non retina model?


 
The ipad 2 & 3 have been coexisting on this front for a while now, its not really an issue, developers know what to do to make both work. Because the ipad mini is effectively a shrunken ipad 2, there is nothing new for developers to do at the moment. In fact Im not even sure its clear that devs will easily be able to detect in code whether the device is an ipad 2 or ipad mini, which some will want to do to change things like font size when ipad mini is used.


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## Firky (Oct 24, 2012)

You have to admire the Chinese 

24 hours later and it's ripped off.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Anyhoos. Anyone else here considering getting a mini? If so, which one?



As expected my other half has started a Pre Christmas hintathon about the iPad mini. "£269 isn't too bad actually, and I don't really need 3G if I can tether..." etc


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

firky said:


> Well the reason I probably won't end up getting an iPad Mini or a N7 for my mum is because both are too small for her, it's an eyesight thing. Also for the same price as the most basic mini I reckon you'd be able to pick up an iPad 2 or 3 for the same price or less.


Need / want Siri for my dad. Which rules out the 2. It's a lack of eyesight thing!

Thinking of a new iPod touch. Given he'd be mostly-reliant on the accessibility apps / interface, and given (I think) of those he'd be most reliant on the automatic / left-to-right screen reader with a well set-up home screen, the size of the device shouldn't be a problem - if anything, smaller'd be more convenient / better.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 24, 2012)

Probably the wrong thread, so apologies, but...

...the disappointing specs for the mini, combined with a frankly ho hum iPhone 5, and a stupid upgrade to the iPad 7 months after a major release...well, it's not encouraging is it?  I loved the resurgence of Apple of the last 10 years, but the string of underwhelming product updates and releases makes me wonder if the passing of Jobs effectively marks the end.

To try and make it relevant to the thread, let me point out the seriously meh nature of this release:
1)  It's fucking pricey.  40%+ more than the competition.  And that would be forgiveable, but
2)  It's not exactly a wow spec. Screen res is what?  Seriously?   And worse
3)  It's just another 7" tablet, with it's USP seeming to be low spec and high price.  There's no wow factor, nothing innovative...much like the iPhone 5 come to think of it.

Ah well, rise and fall of empires I guess.  Suppose it makes sense that IT empires would rise and fall on a nano time scale.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Probably the wrong thread, so apologies, but...
> 
> ...the disappointing specs for the mini, combined with a frankly ho hum iPhone 5, and a stupid upgrade to the iPad 7 months after a major release...well, it's not encouraging is it?  I loved the resurgence of Apple of the last 10 years, but the string of underwhelming product updates and releases makes me wonder if the passing of Jobs effectively marks the end.
> 
> ...


Yeah, _the biggest and most profitable tech company in the world_ sure seems to be struggling at the moment.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 24, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, _the biggest and most profitable tech company in the world_ sure seems to be struggling at the moment.


 
The hint is in your own wording.  A tech company.  As live & die by the sword goes, that's a bit of an obvious one.  They're tech.  Either they make new, shiny, more desirable than the competion items...or they're fucked in a short period of time.  How long did it take for Motorola to go from the most desirable, best selling handset (razr) on the market to a dead duck?  Remember when Nokia were the preeminent supplier of mobile tech.  Blackberry, anyone?


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Its a mistake to overstate the link between innovation and desire.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> Its a mistake to overstate the link between innovation and desire.


 
I disagree.

The desirability of tech depends almost entirely upon shiny, better, faster goodness.  Particularly when your business model is based around top of the range kit at top of the range prices.  And Apple seem to be forgetting the first part.

For example, and apologies to Editor, but GPS?  Meh, that's commonplace and not really essential, so no-one's going to get that worried.  But a general lack of anything innovative, a lower spec, and a higher price...well why would you buy that?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2012)

Because it's cool. Old Ferraris are noisy cars with electrics that don't work. But you'd still rather have one than a mondeo.

Apple have got to the point that every brand would kill for.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 25, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Because c. Old Ferraris are noisy cars with electrics that don't work. But you'd still rather have one than a mondeo.
> 
> Apple have got to the point that every brand would kill for.


 
That would be the point that Motorola, Blackberry, Nokia and other tech brands also got to, not so very long ago.

Comparisons to classic cars are almost laughably irrelevant. Do you see people spending large sums of money for classic phones? Please let me know if you do, I've got a bucket of the damned things. Somehow though, I doubt I'll be making any money off them soon. This is gadgetry we're talking about. How much more obsessed with the new could we get?

The problem with trading on cool is that it's ephemeral, it's shifting and redefining. I just don't see anything here that shows a company redefining the state of the art. It all seems a bit resting on laurels/following the competition to me.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> That would be the point that Motorola, Blackberry, Nokia and other tech brands also got to, not so very long ago.
> 
> Comparisons to classic cars are almost laughably irrelevant. Do you see people spending large sums of money for classic phones? Please let me know if you do, I've got a bucket of the damned things. Somehow though, I doubt I'll be making any money off them soon. This is gadgetry we're talking about. How much more obsessed with the new could we get?
> 
> The problem with trading on cool is that it's ephemeral, it's shifting and redefining. I just don't see anything here that shows a company redefining the state of the art. It all seems a bit resting on laurels/following the competition to me.



How many people actually buy classic Ferraris? Can't be that much...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 25, 2012)

Motorola, Nokia etc never had what Apple do now. You're just looking at numbers, specs, figures. You're missing the point of what aspirational "lifestyle" brands are.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How many people actually buy classic Ferraris? Can't be that much...


 
Very few, you're quite correct.  Which is another reason why it's a silly comparison to throw into a discussion about high end, mass market kit.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Motorola, Nokia etc never had what Apple do now. You're just looking at numbers, specs, figures. You're missing the point of what aspirational "lifestyle" brands are.


Blackberry had all that once. Blackberry meant go-getter, happening business type, wheeler-dealer, city boy and a shaker and a mover.


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## Firky (Oct 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How many people actually buy classic Ferraris? Can't be that much...


That's precisely the point isn't it!


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 25, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Motorola, Nokia etc never had what Apple do now. You're just looking at numbers, specs, figures. You're missing the point of what aspirational "lifestyle" brands are.


 
Nokia defined the mobile phone market for years, at the time when they became a mass market item.  Motorola, with the Razr, created for a long period the worlds best selling mobile phone - and with a design aimed at the top end market too.  Blackberry redefined what people used a phone for.

All of these companies spent a period of being hideously profitable, competition unassailable market leaders.  All pretty much dead in the water.  That's tech for you.

So trying to claim that Apple can't fail because they're currently ahead of their competition by a wide margin...well, I'm not buying that, because I've seen too many companies go down from that position.   Here, do us a favour.  Out of the recent product launches from Apple, which ones do you think stand out by a wide margin from the competion?  Hell, from their existing products?


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> But a general lack of anything innovative, a lower spec, and a higher price...well why would you buy that?


I'd buy it for the ecosystem. In part. That, the quality (IME), and the customer service.

I was thinking about this earlier, and I have approx. £70 of music apps on my iPad. And probably another £100ish of games (with access to another couple of hundred.) Plus £some of work apps (£30-50?). The prospect of replacing those would mean that a switch would have a big pile of added costs, from the off.

Then there's connectivity - I got an Airplay printer, because it is - quite simply - no fucking around. Artichoke's got one, too. We've got an Apple tv, which streams functionally from iPad 2s (though somewhat better from my iPhone / MBP / iMac).

And iMessages. I use it on my iPad, iPhone, Macbook and iMac, all with the same email / phone numbers. And I've got iTunes match, so all my music is available on all my devices, too (so long as there's a data connection, at least...).

tbf, my MBP may not be a masterful piece of innovation. It's the arse-end of the pre-Retina line. But it's the most stunning, reliable, consistent workhorse I've had, out of the.... 6 or 7 (?) desktops and laptops I've owned since the late '90s. With 7-8 hours of real-world battery, fuck's sake. The iPhone 5 might not be a blistering step up from the 4s; but moving over from a 2.5yo disappointing-from-the-start HTC desire, it's like beautiful, smooth, silky shit off a shovel.

I'm not tempted by the mini. I'm not tempted by anything Apple's offering at the moment, tbf. But I can see myself being tempted in a year or two's time - and it isn't *just* one piece of tech (like a Nokia) that's drawing me in; it's the way that *all* my tech is currently connected, and the way that (for the most part) it works better than anything, or any set of things, that I've previously owned.

Switching to another maker / OS / set of OSes would require a bigger set of changes. Some things might carry on working - like the Airplay printers - but might risk all the potential messiness of trying to integrate third-party apps and workaround solutions. And, tbh, not having to fuck around with that (as a rule) is one of the absolute beauties of things as they stand. For me, at least.


----------



## Firky (Oct 25, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Motorola, Nokia etc never had what Apple do now. You're just looking at numbers, specs, figures. You're missing the point of what aspirational "lifestyle" brands are.



Nokia had it once, do you not remember Neo's phone in the Matrix? It didn't have an aerial nub!


----------



## Firky (Oct 25, 2012)

Jonathan Ives has made Apple what they are today, Northumberia University (of which he is a design graduate of) asked him to do a talk and Apple would not let him. So the rumours go at the university!


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

firky said:


> Nokia had it once, do you not remember Neo's phone in the Matrix? It didn't have an aerial nub!







Different phone?


----------



## Firky (Oct 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Different phone?



Different film more likely


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Consumers like mrs quoad who have fully embraced all aspects of Apple's product line and spent a small fortune in  the process are unlikely to shift off the platform for years on end, but most people aren't in that position at all. 

Most have phones, tablets, PVRs, TVs etc from entirely different manufacturers and aren't so firmly rooted in the 'one brand' ethos. That's where the real future battleground is though.


----------



## Firky (Oct 25, 2012)




----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Consumers like mrs quoad who have fully embraced all aspects of Apple's product line and spent a small fortune in the process are unlikely to shift off the platform for years on end, but most people aren't in that position at all.
> 
> Most have phones, tablets, PVRs, TVs etc from entirely different manufacturers and aren't so firmly rooted in the 'one brand' ethos. That's where the real future battleground is though.


Though until the middle of last year, I was running an HTC Desire, had (still have, tbf) a 19" Samsung TV, and had a Dell / Windows Vista laptop. With no desktop. Oh, and a plug-in printer from the early noughties (which is still thriving in my upstairs office!) No 'pvr' of any sort, anywhere.

tbf, I did have the iPad and an iPod.

But in most ways, I was pretty much what you're choosing to describe as the 'future battleground' - very mixed media, with nothing particularly coherent about / between them.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Switching to another maker / OS / set of OSes would require a bigger set of changes. Some things might carry on working - like the Airplay printers - but might risk all the potential messiness of trying to integrate third-party apps and workaround solutions. And, tbh, not having to fuck around with that (as a rule) is one of the absolute beauties of things as they stand. For me, at least.


Yes. Apple products make a wonderfully integrated system. It's brilliant. I was well impressed with my NY friend's 100% Apple set up in his house (iPad, MacBook, iPhone, Apple TV etc)  - everything worked fantastically together. 

But it was also fantastically expensive, way out of the reach of many. If lower-priced products offering similar functionality with rapidly improving inter-gadget integration keep on growing (see: Android) then it may start to bite in to Apple.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I'd buy it for the ecosystem. In part. That, the quality (IME), and the customer service.
> 
> I was thinking about this earlier, and I have approx. £70 of music apps on my iPad. And probably another £100ish of games (with access to another couple of hundred.) Plus £some of work apps (£30-50?). The prospect of replacing those would mean that a switch would have a big pile of added costs, from the off.
> 
> ...


 
Now that's more like an argument...but the problem is there's many a hole to be poked.

You're sticking to Apple because of the application purchases you've made.  The problem is, by that basis no-one would have moved from windows back to Apple OS, right?

Connectivity on apple products is great!  No doubt at all, it's as good as DLNA for outputting media.  Of course, to get that media onto your device in the first place...ah.  Let me demonstrate.  Right now, I can play back from my iPad any film I've bought from iTunes on my TV.  Fantastic.  But  I can play back anything I've downloaded, ripped, torrented or whatever from my Nexus too, via my Samsung telly, or DLNA receiver.  And the slightly fucking brilliant thing there is I don't have to buy media I already own from Apple for the privilege.  So you tell me, do I stick with easy playback and put up with pish poor access to my media?

But here's the big issue.  I remember when you didn't have to argue Mac gear.  I bought my MBP because it pissed all over the wintel equivalents.  I was iPhone for 4 years because it was clearly more innovative than the other smart phones.  The iPad was not only the first to market, but even when the competition turned up, they were just also rans.

But now?  Well, I don't see Apple bringing the same innovation in.  Not by a long chalk.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> But it was also fantastically expensive, way out of the reach of many. If lower-priced products offering similar functionality with rapidly improving inter-gadget integration keep on growing (see: Android) then it may start to bite in to Apple.


Which is where (IMO) the N7 looks interesting.

Particularly if it can begin to roll out peripherals that aren't quite as... curious and unexplained... as the media box that was initially launched alongside it, but which I don't think I've heard of since 

That - the full-systems stuff, particularly if it can get REALLY solid first-party-type integration - is where people will start to go 'ooo.'


----------



## Firky (Oct 25, 2012)

I downloaded a driver for my wireless printer onto my mac book pro and it found the printer without me doing a thing. When I tried to do it on my windows 7 desktop I had to manually point it to the printer and it was a right pain in the arse. I periodically have to reinstall the windows driver too because it'll randomly stop working. 

MS are bloody useless.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Nobody is saying that Apple will live forever or are bulletproof, or that they can wallow in complacency for a long time without it eventually catching up with them.

The point is more along the lines of it being silly to declare Apple to be in trouble at a time when their devices are not showing signs of suffering a sales slump. They dont need to innovate constantly, very few tech companies have pulled rabbits out of the hat every 5 minutes, and yet some have done well for themselves for a long time.

And frankly it would be a very weird world if we expected Apple maintained dominant market share in any product category for a long period of time. A premium brand that has an image and design ethos that plenty dislike should not really have more than a sizeable minority share of a market. That they pulled it off with the ipod was freaky enough, if they managed it with smartphones and tablets for half a decade or more then that would be saying more about the competition than anything else. They didnt manage that long with smartphones, so far they have with tablets but thats on the turn somewhat. It doesnt matter, they still have a disgusting share of smartphone profits.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Now that's more like an argument...but the problem is there's many a hole to be poked.


 
I appreciate this is a personal argument, but you're poking holes that - for me - don't / didn't exist.

The *only* legacy software I really had on my Dell / Vista was MS Office*. OK, it was a PITA to re-buy that, but it was - literally - the only thing I was using. Total cost - about £100.

No pre-existing tablet, and there was the square root of fuck all that I wanted to carry over from my HTC Desire (in fact, I'd gladly've paid money to get rid of it along with most of the apps I got for it. But that's another thread).

The tablet - in turn - took on some of the apps I'd got when I was first given an iPod touch, and that began to pique my curiosity about exploring more.

I wasn't a heavy spender on software *before* I bought into this ecosystem; but the ecosystem, and the functionality of the kit, has made me far more enthusiastic about buying software.

I want to _do _stuff with my iDevices. Whereas with my Dell / HTC Desire, I wanted to battle through all the obstacles to do the work that I needed to do, and then put the fuckers firmly out of sight, until next time I needed to begin battling with them again.



wrt media - I have fuck all ripped films. I appreciate I might be odd, in this respect. The only media I have are CDs and a few Amazon / iTunes albums. You're right that they can be played on any device - but I'd need to fuck around before I could access them all without local storage. I *love* having 1.5gb of emergency / DJay (gym) music on my iPhone, yet knowing that I can access every album I own wherever I am (presuming I have a data connection). Without it hogging any local storage. If there is a similar thingy running for Android that's awesome - again, it's the ease of it that's been a selling point for me. And which was first a selling point when I bought a 256gb SSD laptop, wanted to play music whilst I worked, but didn't want to clog up the 256gb with a tonne of music.





> But here's the big issue. I remember when you didn't have to argue Mac gear. I bought my MBP because it pissed all over the wintel equivalents. I was iPhone for 4 years because it was clearly more innovative than the other smart phones. The iPad was not only the first to market, but even when the competition turned up, they were just also rans.
> 
> But now? Well, I don't see Apple bringing the same innovation in. Not by a long chalk.


D'you know, during the time that you weren't even having to argue for them, I just wasn't seeing that. I was still Windows (then Android) all the way; and when people argued what you're arguing, I thought they were fucking insane. £300 extra for a MacBook with the same specs as a Dell running Vista? You are grade-A having a fucking laugh. And I got the Desire because it was - apparently - the first 1ghz phone, and would shit all over anything else in the field.

I hear what you're saying. And I think you've got a really good point. Particularly because I *can* remember thinking 'fucking hell, that's incredible' when I first heard about the iPad _two. _(And sales figures reflect that's where it really took off).

But - IMO - that is a matter of perception, too.

I appreciate this is not what you're talking about, but my experience of getting an iPhone 5; my mum's experience of getting a 4S; and my dad's experience of _trying _my mum's 4S (after trying an Android phone - admittedly, with a bad interface for someone who's blind) suggest that even if it isn't 'cutting edge innovation,' there is still technology there that is fucking incredible, and a massive leap forward in even a year or two. Even if it might not look that way from other angles.


*e2a: just remembered. And £10 p/a stats software.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> But now? Well, I don't see Apple bringing the same innovation in. Not by a long chalk.


 
So they release a tablet with a stupidly high resolution 7 months ago, a resolution that many other 10ish inch tablets including models that are launching in a few days dont get close to, and I'm supposed to believe that their ability to innovate or stand out has fallen off a cliff?

Releasing a few products which dont excite people and do not feature great leaps of progress, and can even be seen as lacklustre in terms of spec is hardly unusual. Its fair enough to comment repeatedly about a device when it fails to excite, but to extrapolate that into a 'decline of the company' story is rather over the top. Likewise its good to shout loudly when they make terrible mistakes such as the Maps fiasco, and many repeat performances will take the shine off them in a notable way, but again its too easy to get carried away.

Meanwhile Microsofts main innovations remain locked to a rather long windows release cycle, and Google are presently innovating on price more than anything else. And thats not an innovation Apple are going to have any interest in.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> But it was also fantastically expensive, way out of the reach of many. If lower-priced products offering similar functionality with rapidly improving inter-gadget integration keep on growing (see: Android) then it may start to bite in to Apple.


 
To my eyes the biggest threat to Apple remains the wider economic conditions. When the financial crisis hit I and probably others thought it might have quite the impact on the end of the market Apple aim at but it didnt turn out that way, yet. Apparently some non-IT luxury brands are just starting to come under strain now, so perhaps the phenomenon is alive but lagging some years behind. Maybe it will yet hit Apple.

But in terms of their current products lineup I see no particular problems for them at the moment at all really.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> And this shit is even funnier when people make
> 
> To my eyes the biggest threat to Apple remains the wider economic conditions. When the financial crisis hit I and probably others thought it might have quite the impact on the end of the market Apple aim at but it didnt turn out that way, yet. Apparently some non-IT luxury brands are just starting to come under strain now, so perhaps the phenomenon is alive but lagging some years behind. Maybe it will yet hit Apple.
> 
> But in terms of their current products lineup I see no particular problems for them at the moment at all really.


 
See this is why find these threads interesting. I'll probably never buy an apple product, but why they do well and the affect they have on the rest of teh industry continues to fascinate me.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Very few, you're quite correct.  Which is another reason why it's a silly comparison to throw into a discussion about high end, mass market kit.



Disagree, go check out Shrine of Apple an tell me there aren't people out there that collect these things.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> And this shit is even funnier when people make
> 
> To my eyes the biggest threat to Apple remains the wider economic conditions. When the financial crisis hit I and probably others thought it might have quite the impact on the end of the market Apple aim at but it didnt turn out that way, yet. Apparently some non-IT luxury brands are just starting to come under strain now, so perhaps the phenomenon is alive but lagging some years behind. Maybe it will yet hit Apple.
> 
> But in terms of their current products lineup I see no particular problems for them at the moment at all really.



We've been in an out of recession for four years and in that time Apple have seen year on year record profits for the company. Some brands are recession proof...


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> ...a resolution that many other 10ish inch tablets including models that are launching in a few days dont get close to...


 
If by not get close to, you mean beat, then....sure



> Google are presently innovating on price more than anything else.


 
And this is ridiculous.  Google has been innovating on the quality and features of their software, which is why Android is a more capable OS than IOS and Apple are playing catch up.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> If by not get close to, you mean beat, then....sure
> 
> 
> 
> And this is ridiculous. Google has been innovating on the quality and features of their software, which is why Android is a more capable OS than IOS and Apple are playing catch up.


 
I'm an Android fan and I'm not sure this is true...I've just flashed my phone with a new ROM and left the HTC modified world of Android. I'm now dealing with the horrors of the stock messaging, contacts, email and even the dialler. Personally this doesn't bother me that much, but out the box? I can see why most companies skin android (I may well go back to sense, just because of the contacts integration), but in out the box being nice to use Apple have an edge,


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> I'm an Android fan and I'm not sure this is true...I've just flashed my phone with a new ROM and left the HTC modified world of Android. I'm now dealing with the horrors of the stock messaging, contacts, email and even the dialler. Personally this doesn't bother me that much, but out the box? I can see why most companies skin android (I may well go back to sense, just because of the contacts integration), but in out the box being nice to use Apple have an edge,


 
That's what I would call a strength of the system.  Don't like the messaging app?  Change it.  And set it to be the default.

This is an old argument, though, and probably comes down to personal preference (customisable vs one-true-way), so I don't want to get into an argument about it.  I know my post was provocative, this being an Apple thread, but I really thought people had accepted that Android is a more capable OS now, but that IOS is a smoother overall experience?  Is that really up for debate?


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> And this is ridiculous. Google has been innovating on the quality and features of their software, which is why Android is a more capable OS than IOS and Apple are playing catch up.


 
Its not ridiculous at all. Android has come a long way, and much like Apple tried with Siri, Google have been pushing things like Google Now which count as innovations for the people that bother using them. And yes Google are primarily a service & advertising company so they have some apps of their own which they do make notable improvements to from time to time, but thats not what has breathed fresh life into the android tablet scene this year. Chrome for android hasnt shifted the nexus 7 in decent numbers, the price has.

The notable improvements to Android on tablets this year havent been so much about innovation, they've been about getting it up to scratch and fixing some past flaws. Project Butter being the most obvious. Perhaps I'm supposed to include the fact they finally published some tablet app design guidelines for developers as an innovation!


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> That's what I would call a strength of the system. Don't like the messaging app? Change it. And set it to be the default.


 
Its both a great strength and a weakness. Rather than try and pigeon-hole it as being either good or bad, which is impossible as it depends on the kind of user, I will say its one of the key differentiators of the platform.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> Its not ridiculous at all. Android has come a long way, and much like Apple tried with Siri, Google have been pushing things like Google Now which count as innovations for the people that bother using them. And yes Google are primarily a service & advertising company so they have some apps of their own which they do make notable improvements to from time to time, but thats not what has breathed fresh life into the android tablet scene this year. Chrome for android hasnt shifted the nexus 7 in decent numbers, the price has.
> 
> The notable improvements to Android on tablets this year havent been so much about innovation, they've been about getting it up to scratch and fixing some past flaws. Project Butter being the most obvious. Perhaps I'm supposed to include the fact they finally published some tablet app design guidelines for developers as an innovation!


 
You seem to be confusing innovation with commercial success.  And "innovations for the people that bother using them" is a strange thing to say.  So not only does it have to be commercially successful, but it has to be interesting to...you?...to be innovative?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> That's what I would call a strength of the system. Don't like the messaging app? Change it. And set it to be the default.
> 
> This is an old argument, though, and probably comes down to personal preference (customisable vs one-true-way), so I don't want to get into an argument about it. I know my post was provocative, this being an Apple thread, but I really thought people had accepted that Android is a more capable OS now, but that IOS is a smoother overall experience? Is that really up for debate?


 
I've not used it enough tbh, but I suspect yes out the box. It's hard to do like for like as it's rare users see unmodified android...most people don't care how "capable" the OS is if it does what they want. I've yet to find a nice mail client and my contacts app doesn't blend it all together as nicely as Sense did.

I'm here because I'm interested in the effect apple has on the marketplace, but most people aren't geeks like us,


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> Its both a great strength and a weakness. Rather than try and pigeon-hole it as being either good or bad, which is impossible as it depends on the kind of user, I will say its one of the key differentiators of the platform.


 
Yeah, that's what I was getting at when I said it comes down to personal choice.  But, it is more _capable_.  There's more you can do with Android.  That's undeniable, surely?

There's nothing that the iphone does that an android phone can't, but the reverse is true.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> Its both a great strength and a weakness. Rather than try and pigeon-hole it as being either good or bad, which is impossible as it depends on the kind of user, I will say its one of the key differentiators of the platform.


 
Bingo...I'm between the two. After having an ipod as a gift I swore I'd never buy into apple's hardware, mostly as I don't want itunes on my PC. That said I don't want the geek factor of linux on my handheld communications device.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Yeah, that's what I was getting at when I said it comes down to personal choice. But, it is more _capable_. There's more you can do with Android.


 
What is capable though?


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> What is capable though?


 
I mean, it can _do more,_ essentially.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I mean, it can _do more,_ essentially.


 
So sell me. What can it do that I need that iphone can't?


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> So sell me. What can it do that I need that iphone can't?


 
It's not about need.  But two good examples are changing the keyboard and setting default apps.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I know my post was provocative, this being an Apple thread, but I really thought people had accepted that Android is a more capable OS now, but that IOS is a smoother overall experience? Is that really up for debate?


 
I suppose its still up for debate because in reality we cannot leave apps out of any judgement of an operating system. 

Android has a number of strengths, and nobody can doubt its vast advantages in areas such as customisation.

The problem is tablet apps. Its a real problem, not just a bugbear of mine. Swathes of the IT press acknowledge this all the time, and it cannot help but be relevant now there is an ipad mini that comes at a price premium compared to the excellent affordable android 7" tablets that are available.

And I have to harp on about it fairly frequently otherwise a picture gets painted that people are only willing to pay premium apple prices because they love the brand or the design or are tied into the ecosystem. Thats part of it but it isnt the whole story.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I mean, it can _do more,_ essentially.


I appreciate this is perhaps equally provocative, and perhaps works with a rather narrow conception of 'capacity.' So apologies in advance.

Why, between 2009-11, despite looking on a weekly basis, and routinely toddling through the top 100 games (alongside the featured ones which - incidentally - *never* fucking changed) could I not find a single fucking game that seemed to even half-way stretch the legendary 'first ever 1ghz processor' capacities of my HTC Desire? Whilst my underclocked 666mhz iPod two regularly ran games that battered seven shades of shit out of anything and everything on the Desire, and then ran home for tea, laughing all the way?

What finally turned me away from Android was a sense that there was capacity, in the sense of potential. But that - by the time I off-fucked it for the foreseeable - nothing whatsoever had been done with it (certainly not 'out of the box,' I didn't root and wasn't tempted to) that made it remotely interesting in anything other than a theoretical sense. "It could do better. Unfortunately, there's nothing that's been produced yet that *will* do better. Not without experiencing multiple integration / third-party fuckup problems before crashing your phone, at least."

Having said that, I appreciate things might've / have probably changed in the intervening 12-18 months!


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> I suppose its still up for debate because in reality we cannot leave apps out of any judgement of an operating system.
> 
> Android has a number of strengths, and nobody can doubt its vast advantages in areas such as customisation.
> 
> ...


 
I deliberately said the OS was more capable as apps are something beyond the control of Apple/Google.  Android tablets are obviously lacking when compared to Ipads when it comes to app choice, but that says nothing about the OS.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> You seem to be confusing innovation with commercial success. And "innovations for the people that bother using them" is a strange thing to say. So not only does it have to be commercially successful, but it has to be interesting to...you?...to be innovative?


 
Thats the standard that has been set on these forums in the past - most notably along the lines of 'Siri doesnt count as an innovation' because its sneerworthy to particular people.

Its not my fault that the phenomenon exists, innovation is a positive term and its not surprising that people tend to save it for features that appeal to them.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> It's not about need. But two good examples are changing the keyboard and setting default apps.


 
This is why I find this thread interesting. I love swiftkey, but the default app is shit, Still waiting on an email client that is better then the one that comes with sense. My point is, most people will never change the default apps though and this is what the fight is about.

There is a reason most people don't use linux as a desktop OS.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I appreciate this is perhaps equally provocative, and perhaps works with a rather narrow conception of 'capacity.' So apologies in advance.
> 
> Why, between 2009-11, despite looking on a weekly basis, and routinely toddling through the top 100 games (alongside the featured ones which - incidentally - *never* fucking changed) could I not find a single fucking game that seemed to even half-way stretch the legendary 'first ever 1ghz processor' capacities of my HTC Desire? Whilst my underclocked 666mhz iPod two regularly ran games that battered seven shades of shit out of anything and everything on the Desire, and then ran home for tea, laughing all the way?
> 
> ...


 
This is due to economics.  Android apps don't make as much money as IOS apps for developers.  So developers target IOS first, or sometimes exclusively.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> This is why I find this thread interesting. I love swiftkey, but the default app is shit, Still waiting on an email client that is better then the one that comes with sense. My point is, most people will never change the default apps though and this is what the fight is about.
> 
> There is a reason most people don't use linux as a desktop OS.


 
I don't think it's true that most people will never change the default apps.  Swiftkey is the top paid app on the Play store.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> So sell me. What can it do that I need that iphone can't?


Custom launchers, custom screens, removeable battery, removable storage, widgets, offline Google maps, change all default apps, NFC support, micro USB port rather than a proprietary connector, visible file system....


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> This is due to economics. Android apps don't make as much money as IOS apps for developers. So developers target IOS first, or sometimes exclusively.


I appreciate that - and it was, tbf, a dry and admittedly-limited post.

I'm sure it's due to economics.

My consistent problem was that I was sold something on the basis of capacity (and others' blistering enthusiasm) only to find that I had the equivalent of (for what I wanted) a three billion megahertz steaming turd. All the capacity in the universe; but, frankly, so what? Who wants capacity, unless something is done with it?

And, again, tbf, it's on that latter 'doing something with it' that I've heard things've changed. (Though I'd heard similar praise before getting the Desire, so'm likely to remain wary for the foreseeable )


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Custom launchers, custom screens, removeable battery, removable storage, widgets, offline Google maps, change all default apps, NFC support, micro USB port rather than a proprietary connector, visible file system....


 
We're talking OSs here, so you shouldn't include batteries, removable storage, USB ports, etc.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I don't think it's true that most people will never change the default apps. Swiftkey is the top paid app on the Play store.


It's a hugely popular app and one that makes a _massive_ difference to typing. Using a standard keyboard feels like a big step back.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I appreciate that - and it was, tbf, a dry and admittedly-limited post.
> 
> I'm sure it's due to economics.
> 
> ...


 
If you're asking here are the apps now better on Android than when you used it last? Undoubtedly.  Is the choice better than IOS?  Almost certainly not.  But I'm talking about the OS, not the apps.  I was responding to the charge that Google haven't innovated on anything but price.  The OS proves otherwise, despite how the developers choose to use it (or not).


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I deliberately said the OS was more capable as apps are something beyond the control of Apple/Google. Android tablets are obviously lacking when compared to Ipads when it comes to app choice, but that says nothing about the OS.


 
The decisions made by OS makers can have a great impact on what apps a platform ends up with, for quite a number of reasons.

Google made a number of missteps which contributed to the app situation, and they have tried really hard to repair the damage. At the moment coming up with really affordable tablets that will sell in large quantities is the most important thing they are doing that can help this situation. I wont go on about all the other stuff they have fixed right now.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Custom launchers, custom screens,change all default apps, NFC support, micro USB port rather than a proprietary connector, visible file system....


 
Sorry I know nothing about computers. Why does this matter to me?


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a hugely popular app and one that makes a _massive_ difference to typing. Using a standard keyboard feels like a big step back.


 
Yep, it's _the_ most popular (paid) app.  You don't need to convince me!  Although I prefer, and use, Swype.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a hugely popular app and one that makes a _massive_ difference to typing. Using a standard keyboard feels like a big step back.


 
It is proper ace. When I installed cyanogenmod and was using the default keyboard it felt like I had one hand tied behind my back. Which was kind of the point really.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Sorry I know nothing about computers. Why does this matter to me?


If you're happy to use whatever comes with the device and have no interest in trying to find something that suits your needs better, nothing at all.

I tried doing that with the iPhone and it drove me mad, but it clearly suits zillions of people.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> If you're happy to use whatever comes with the device and have no interest in trying to find something that suits your needs better, nothing at all.
> 
> I tried that with the iPhone and it drove me mad, but it clearly suits zillions of people.


 
Which is nicely my point. You and I aren't typical users. Zillions of people have no interest and until Android steps up it's game, for them it will be the budget alternative.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> If you're asking here are the apps now better on Android than when you used it last? Undoubtedly. Is the choice better than IOS? Almost certainly not. But I'm talking about the OS, not the apps. I was responding to the charge that Google haven't innovated on anything but price. The OS proves otherwise, despite how the developers choose to use it (or not).


Yes, sorry. It was more of a dry reflection on the subjective meanings / nature of 'capacity.'

And one that, tbf, I think you've addressed elsewhere.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> The decisions made by OS makers can have a great impact on what apps a platform ends up with, for quite a number of reasons.
> 
> Google made a number of missteps which contributed to the app situation, and they have tried really hard to repair the damage. At the moment coming up with really affordable tablets that will sell in large quantities is the most important thing they are doing that can help this situation. I wont go on about all the other stuff they have fixed right now.


 
Except Google didn't make any mistakes with the OS.  I'd argue the only thing they've fixed is performance (smoothness of the UI etc) and I believe this is why we're seeing better Android adoption now.  Part of that is because Android apps run in a VM which means it is inherently slower than a native app (those on Iphone) and that is why Android phones have had to compete on the latest hardware specs.  IOS is able to run smoother with slower hardware, but now the hardware in Android phones is so fast that the VM issue has largely gone away.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Which is nicely my point. You and I aren't typical users. Zillions of people have no interest and until Android steps up it's game, for them it will be the budget alternative.


 
Surely the top selling app on the platform _is_ used by the typical user.  And the top selling app is a keyboard replacement.  Maybe you need to give the typical user a bit more credit than you are here?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Surely the top selling app on the platform _is_ used by the typical user. And the top selling app is a keyboard replacement. Maybe you need to give the typical user a bit more credit than you are here?


 
Maybe. Most people I know now have smartphones. I'm the only one who has heard of, let alone considered installing an alternative keyboard. These are phones, not geek toys.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Maybe. Most people I know now have smartphones. I'm the only one who has heard of, let alone considered installing an alternative keyboard. These are phones, not geek toys.


 
But as you, I think, said earlier: hardly anyone has stock Android.  Which means customised manufacturer ROMs, often with replaced keyboards.  The Samsung Galaxy range all come with Swype installed, I believe.  So instead of the user customising the experience, the manufacturer does it for them.  It's the same thing at the end of the day, though.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Except Google didn't make any mistakes with the OS.


 
You just mentioned a few of the mistakes they made with the OS.

Dont forget we are talking about tablets here. The way things turned out with Honeycomb effectively forking the smartphone and tablet OS for a while was a mistake. OK it was one that was somewhat hard to avoid for a while due to the way android tablets first emerged without a version of android that as designed for tablets, but it was still a mess.

And there are some technical limitations with the OS in specific areas that have limited certain types of apps. Audio system latency or other timing issues have been a problem that frustrated developers who wanted to do certain kinds of audio creation apps. They've been trying to fix this, not sure if they have succeeded yet. Meanwhile Apple put things like Core Midi into their OS, and are reaping the rewards.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> You just mentioned a few of the mistakes they made with the OS.
> 
> Dont forget we are talking about tablets here. The way things turned out with Honeycomb effectively forking the smartphone and tablet OS for a while was a mistake. OK it was one that was somewhat hard to avoid for a while due to the way android tablets first emerged without a version of android that as designed for tablets, but it was still a mess.
> 
> And there are some technical limitations with the OS in specific areas that have limited certain types of apps. Audio system latency or other timing issues have been a problem that frustrated developers who wanted to do certain kinds of audio creation apps. They've been trying to fix this, not sure if they have succeeded yet. Meanwhile Apple put things like Core Midi into their OS, and are reaping the rewards.


 
I agree that audio latency is a problem, but Honeycomb wasn't a mistake. It was a really good OS, and was widely praised in the media at the time.

One of the big problems related to tablets and Android development was that the Honeycomb tablets were expensive and not as good as Ipads, and the Honeycomb emulator in the SDK was too slow to be useable (something I think is still an issue). So if you couldn't afford the Xoom, then you couldn't develop tablet apps properly.

edit: and the stuff I mentioned in my post are not what I'd see as mistakes.  They were design decisions which had a trade-off.  Get loads of Java programmers on board at the cost of reduced performance.  And it seems to have paid off.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 25, 2012)

Just curious. What killer apps does the iPad/phone offer that Android does not? I have about 30 apps on my phone and use about 10 daily. Since moving from Apple to Android I have not found myself lacking.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 25, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Just curious. What killer apps does the iPad/phone offer that Android does not? I have about 30 apps on my phone and use about 10 daily. Since moving from Apple to Android I have not found myself lacking.


The difference isn't as great on phones


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Which is nicely my point. You and I aren't typical users. Zillions of people have no interest and until Android steps up it's game, for them it will be the budget alternative.


Why does Android have to 'step up its game'? It's already massively outselling iOS.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Why does Android have to 'step up its game'? It's already massively outselling iOS.


 
Out of the box, it's not as smooth a user experience as iOS.  Sure, you can replace launcher, file manager and the keyboard...but you shouldn't HAVE to do that to get a good setup.  Android have improved the launcher in the last release, so hopefully they will sort out the other little niggles in default apps.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Out of the box, it's not as smooth a user experience as iOS. Sure, you can replace launcher, file manager and the keyboard...but you shouldn't HAVE to do that to get a good setup. Android have improved the launcher in the last release, so hopefully they will sort out the other little niggles in default apps.


HTC is pretty damn smooth out of the box, as is the S3 which is an incredible phone. I imagine most people are quite happy with the default apps, but I like to have things set up the way I want them. Either way, it's great to have the choice.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> HTC is pretty damn smooth out of the box, as is the S3 which is an incredible phone. I imagine most people are quite happy with the default apps, but I like to have things set up the way I want them. Either way, it's great to have the choice.


 
Haven't tried HTC, so couldn't comment on it...but the thing is, why do HTC have to tweak it to make it smooth.  Why did I have to pay a couple of quid for swiftkey?  It's the slightly shonky little details like the keyboard that Android could easily improve for great effect.

Sure, the ability to change things as I like, use whatever movie player I like, these are the reasons Android is a better OS for me than iOS...but the slightly inferior little things are the reason iOS is seen as sexier.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 25, 2012)

Android stuff its just like it is with windows...... its all good and does its job robustly enough, but a lot of people seem to tinker with it to make it nicer....

Where as iOS and mac os x are just nice out of the box, but a little 'restrictive'

That said, Apples restrictiveness has never stopped me. Im much more of an apple person than I am android/windows etc...... but I can see the benefits in both. Purely and simply I just dont like android for phones or windows for PC.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 25, 2012)

Someone wrote down all the hyperbolic words used in the keynote: 

Cook: Great, really exciting, tremendous, love, stunning, beautiful, super fast, 5 million, fantastic, incredible, amazing, love, incredibly, amazing, love, incredible, incredible, amazingly thin, fantastic, fantastic, fantastic, 3 million, incredible, 200 million, phenomenal, great, amazing, 125 million, 300 billion, 28,000, 160 million, 70 million, great, 700,000, 275,000, love, 35 billion, jaw dropping, great, fantastic, great, 6,5 billion, great, elegant, gorgeous, 1,5 million, gorgeous, beautiful, really cool, fantastic, really cool, crisp, beautiful, beautiful, really fantastic, incredible, #1, absolutely incredible, really great.

Schiller: Really excited, very big, great, best ever, love, gorgeous, gorgeous, best ever, best ever, #1, love, perfect, great, really excited, incredibly thin, huge, impressive, lightest ever, beautiful, thin, thin, beautiful, absolutely gorgeous, amazing, amazing, stunning, amazing, fantastic, beautiful, absolutely gorgeous, stunning, amazing, exciting, incredible, fantastic, great, perfect, great, great, so excited, stunning, super thin and light, love, best ever, beautiful, really impressive, best, #1, great, absolutely beautiful, stunning, amazingly thin, absolutely, incredible, remarkable, thin, thin, thinner, lovingly, incredible, unbelievable, super strong, astounding, thin, incredible, huge, huge, huge, thinner, amazingly thin, beautifully, thin, purer, thinner, beautiful, very very cool, remarkable, best, boldest ever, great.

Cook: Really cool, 100 million, unprecedented, 91%, phenomenally, love, love, beautiful, fast, love, absolutely perfect, great, great, love, love, legendary, love, amazing, so amazing, incredible, gorgeous, 80%, 2500, incredibly new, by storm, 94%, 100 million, thrilled, beautiful, really cool.

Schiller: Remarkable, incredible, so thrilling, powerhouse, huge, breakthrough, great, excitement, amazing, beautiful, exquisite, amazing, incredibly thin, incredibly thin and light, beautiful, amazing, thinner, lighter, incredibly, great, great, fantastic, amazing, thin, light, great, fantastic, thin, light, wonderfully, love, love, amazing, love, incredibly amazing, incredible, 275,000+, amazingly, thin, huge, huge, gigantic, thinner, lighter, gigantic, amazing, over 275,000, great, huge, great, incredible, amazing, incredible, great, beautiful, greatly, thin and light.

Ive/Tchao/Riccio: Very powerful, very capable, remarkably simple, amazing, so incredible, magical, 1,5 million, really excited, incredibly, great, thinner and lighter, thin, thin, amazing, incredibly thin and light, remarkable, extraordinary.

Schiller: Great, great, great, incredible, amazing, amazing, so excited, exciting, love, great, great.

Cook: Very cool, incredible, great, incredible, amazingly thin, unbelievable, incredibly thin and light, beautiful, unbelievably thin, unbelievably gorgeous, incredible, love, loved, best on Earth, fantastic.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 25, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The difference isn't as great on phones


 
Cheers Crispy, I was a bit confused there.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Yeah, its been a good while since I could genuinely rant about android phone apps in a meaningful way.

But tablets are supposed to be closer to the computing experience. I could knock up a list of beautiful showcase apps that show off the iPad well, but it would be slightly missing the point since delving deeper into different genres of apps is where much of my point is to be found. I might have a go anyway, but not right now. For now I'll just say that Apples own apps are not the worst place to start, eg Pages, Keynotes, Numbers, GarageBand, iMovie. Pretty sure I can find more than 10-15 3rd party music creation apps that are a delight, half a dozen weather apps that shine, and plenty of social/net service apps that make the android versions seem quite pathetic in comparison.


----------



## DieselBar (Oct 25, 2012)

with a simple jailbreak you can have swype and access to the file system (ifile) on ios.  

I guess i'm not so much of a power user these days, I used to try different ROMs on win mobile etc a few years ago, these days after many many years working with windows systems at work I just want something that works well out the box, with the slickness and much better apps ios is where it seems to be at.


----------



## DieselBar (Oct 25, 2012)

Price wise the android tablets do look interesting though but for a tablet the thing I do most is web browsing and 4:3 is much much better for this, I got one of those cheap HP tablets but its getting pretty painful now, are there any android 4:3 tablets out/on the horizon


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

DieselBar said:


> with a simple jailbreak you can have swype and access to the file system (ifile) on ios.


To most users, jailbreaking an iPhone and then loading up Swype is anything but a simple task. Swiftkey is even better than Swype IMO but both are miles faster than using the default iPhone keyboard.

On a general note, it seems that Android users are catching up with iPhone users when it comes to buying apps now, so that's likely to encourage more Android developments.







http://www.swiftkey.net/android-catching-up-with-iphone-on-paid-apps


----------



## pesh (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> To most users, jailbreaking an iPhone and then loading up Swype is anything but a simple task.


yes, it will take 2 or possibly 3 button presses. 

but to be fair some people do struggle with itunes. this could well be beyond them.


----------



## DieselBar (Oct 25, 2012)

The actual jailbreak is really simple at the moment but having the confidence to do it and worries about the warranty will put most people off.  I never got on with swype, may well give it another go, how long did it take you to get used to swiftkey?


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 25, 2012)

I hated swype and swiftkey when I've used Android handsets, the default iPhone keyboard is by far the best I've used, it just works, even for fat fingered clumsy dolts like myself. Neither can beat my N900 hardware keyboard though. If there was a decent specced Android phone with a landscape hardware keyboard I'd switch in a flash.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> To most users, jailbreaking an iPhone and then loading up Swype is anything but a simple task. Swiftkey is even better than Swype IMO but both are miles faster than using the default iPhone keyboard.
> 
> On a general note, it seems that Android users are catching up with iPhone users when it comes to buying apps now, so that's likely to encourage more Android developments.
> 
> ...


That data says nothing at all about overall app sales.

Surely there's better data wrt app sales out there? Something that actually includes the number of paid apps sold, and / or an estimation of the overall value?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

*Looks at thread title, looks at posts*


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> *Looks at thread title, looks at posts*


 
I know this sounds like another fanboy dig, but there isn't a lot interesting to say about the iPad now that it's out. It's an iPad, it's smaller, it costs £260 quid, it's resolution doesn't stack up to the retina label. Meh?

edit:*doesn't* stack up


----------



## Crispy (Oct 25, 2012)

Anything interesting was said months ago when it was obvious what the thing was going to be.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I know this sounds like another fanboy dig, but there isn't a lot interesting to say about the iPad now that it's out. It's an iPad, it's smaller, it costs £260 quid, it's resolution doesn't stack up to the retina label. Meh?
> 
> edit:*doesn't* stack up


Probably more of a pre-release interest gap - how much of 'mobiles and tablets' is about devices that've already been released?


----------



## sim667 (Oct 25, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I know this sounds like another fanboy dig, but there isn't a lot interesting to say about the iPad now that it's out. It's an iPad, it's smaller, it costs £260 quid, it's resolution doesn't stack up to the retina label. Meh?
> 
> edit:*doesn't* stack up


 
It was never labelled as 'retina'

Infact as far as apple were concerned it didnt exist in the public eye until it was anounced, even then it's alway be referred to as an 'iPad mini'


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 25, 2012)

I never said it was retina.  I just meant the resolution was low, hence not interesting.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> *Looks at thread title, looks at posts*


 
You put the words mad ranting in the thread title


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Here's a graphic comparing pixel counts: 






http://www.technewsdaily.com/8376-ipad-mini-is-pixel-poor-compared-to-rivals.html


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

If I end up switching for personal use, it will be down to the app situation and this:






The situation is made worse by the bloody 'virtual home etc buttons bar' on android, and thats part of the reason apple were able to make these cruel slides for their presentation. Its my least-favorite aspect of android, and in landscape mode its a design disaster that makes 16:9 aspect ratio seem an even worse choice for tablets.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> You put the words mad ranting in the thread title



Yeah and stupidly I thought that would be read as mad rantings ABOUT the iPad mini! There's plenty of other threads to have this yawn fest of a 'discussion'.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

No there isn't. There is no nexus 7 vs ipad mini thread.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

Lol yeah because that's what's been happening on here...


----------



## tarannau (Oct 25, 2012)

The aspect thing is what puts me off the Nexus more than anything. It's a great value device, but it's too much of an awkward compromise for the things  I would do most of on a small tablet, largely as a quick and convenient web browsing device.

On the other hand the price of the ipad mini is probably a little steep for the use it'd see here (15 min commute, mb air at home) , whereas the Nexus seems more of a cheap punt.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

tarannau said:


> The aspect thing is what puts me off the Nexus more than anything. It's a great value device, but it's too much of an awkward compromise for the things  I would do most of on a small tablet, largely as a quick and convenient web browsing device.
> 
> On the other hand the price of the ipad mini is probably a little steep for the use it'd see here (15 min commute, mb air at home) , whereas the Nexus seems more of a cheap punt.



It's amazing it took them so long before they allowed users to change aspect too...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 25, 2012)

Never liked 16:9. It just is not a useful screen size for anything which doesn't involve... watching 16:9 video.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

Yup. On the iPad mini something that's not really been talked about but could be a big deal is the way it deals with accidental screen touches due to the thinner bezel. Apparently they've designed some new function that the iPad mini will work out whether your accidentally brushing the bezel and purposely tapping the screen to initiate an action. Got me thinking, wouldn't this be a very useful function for a future iPad with no bezel?


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Never liked 16:9. It just is not a useful screen size for anything which doesn't involve... watching 16:9 video.


Complete non issue for me.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 25, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Never liked 16:9. It just is not a useful screen size for anything which doesn't involve... watching 16:9 video.


 
I really don't mind 16:9 on larger screens, where you get to stack lots of 4:3 windows and get the odd sidebar/application specific controls to use up the space. Where screen estate is more precious it becomes far more of factor, plus you don't tend to use those kind of applications with multiple palettes and sidebars on tablets.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yup. On the iPad mini something that's not really been talked about but could be a big deal is the way it deals with accidental screen touches due to the thinner bezel. Apparently they've designed some new function that the iPad mini will work out whether your accidentally brushing the bezel and purposely tapping the screen to initiate an action. Got me thinking, wouldn't this be a very useful function for a future iPad with no bezel?


Could do with something like that for the cat, tbh.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Could do with something like that for the cat, tbh.



Heh.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 26, 2012)

tarannau said:


> I really don't mind 16:9 on larger screens, where you get to stack lots of 4:3 windows and get the odd sidebar/application specific controls to use up the space. Where screen estate is more precious it becomes far more of factor, plus you don't tend to use those kind of applications with multiple palettes and sidebars on tablets.


True - I have two 16:9 screens on my desktop and it's fine there. It's just on smaller screens that it's such a pain in the bum. (Hello 13" macbook air - actually that's even wider iirc.)


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

I have two 16:9 desktop monitors, a Nexus 7 with a 16:9 screen and a Asus Transformer with a 16:9 screen. I can't say I've ever - for a moment - wished I had a 4:3 screen instead.

I had to look up the screen aspect of my Samsung S2 and apparently it's 5:3 which, again, I've had no problems using.

But if 16:9 is as bad for smaller devices as some people claim, what on earth are Apple doing making their iPhone5 use the same dimensions?


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> But if 16:9 is as bad for smaller devices as some people claim, what on earth are Apple doing making their iPhone5 use the same dimensions?


 
Ergonomics, they wanted to give people more screen space, but yet if they made the phone any wider it becomes more difficult to use one handed.

http://gizmodo.com/5945367/how-does-the-iphone-5-fit-in-your-hand-a-gif-guide


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Ergonomics, they wanted to give people more screen space, but yet if they made the phone any wider it becomes more difficult to use one handed.


Ah, I see you're buying into that PR tosh.

Curiously enough, tens of millions of folks seem to have managed just fine with larger phones. I guess they have no need for these one-size-fits-all 'ergonomics' you speak of.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> http://gizmodo.com/5945367/how-does-the-iphone-5-fit-in-your-hand-a-gif-guide


I'm having trouble keeping up with the bits you keep adding to your post, but that link really is bollocks, as noted by a reader:


> It's articles like this one and these:
> http://gizmodo.com/5847981/this-is-why-the-iphones-screen-will-always-be-35-inches
> http://gizmodo.com/5912327/why-the-next-iphone-wont-be-169
> make me want to stop reading this site


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)




----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 26, 2012)

I made a single edit within seconds to add a video to the post, have you entered into that Reality Distortion Field yet again ? or are you going to seriously argue that Apple don't put considerable priority into the ergonomic design of their products ?


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I made a single edit within seconds to add a video to the post, have you entered into that Reality Distortion Field yet again ? or are you going to seriously argue that Apple don't put considerable priority into the ergonomic design of their products ?


Don't lie. You made two edits, the first to add the Gizmodo link and the second to add the video.


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 26, 2012)

Nope the link was in my original post, if it is showing two edits that's because I edited to add the video, the little black box in the corner stalled, so I cancelled, and went to edit again.

Anyway, this is tediously irrelevant.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

This is kind of an odd outburst by Tim Cook:


> Let me be clear. We would not make one of the seven-inch tablets. We don't think they're good products, and we would _never_ make one. Not just because it's seven inches but for many reasons. One of the reasons, however, is size.
> http://gizmodo.com/5955054/tim-cook-we-would-never-make-a-7+inch-tablet


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> This is kind of an odd outburst by Tim Cook:


 
Great comment from that article which explains why perfectly 



> A 7" screen cannot work well with tablet apps written for a 10" screen. A 7.9" screen can. So the first day you take your iPad Mini out of the box, you have a practically limitless selection of great tablet apps, and usability is fine on that screen size.
> That's what Tim was getting at (just go review the keynote). The iPad Mini will be a far more useful device for most people on release day than any Android tablet. Unless you don't care about apps.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> This is kind of an odd outburst by Tim Cook:


Links to a 'fact check' on screen sizes and comparisons, which provides some context to where he might've been coming from.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Links to a 'fact check' on screen sizes and comparisons, which provides some context to where he might've been coming from.


Or you can just run a browser that supports full screen web browsing on the Nexus 7 and enjoy those extra pixels to the full.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Or you can just run a browser that supports full screen web browsing on the Nexus 7 and enjoy those extra pixels to the full.


The 'fact check' article does address that:



> That would have left Apple with its base 35 percent screen advantage — a less dramatic difference.


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Or you can just run a browser that supports full screen web browsing on the Nexus 7 and enjoy those extra pixels to the full.


 
Is there a browser that can hide the bottom android bar and still let you touch the screen without it reappearing then?

Because I think thats what the Wired article was getting at, but its badly written as it implies this is a browser design issue rather than an OS one.



> To make the more dramatic claim that the browser surface is 67 percent larger on the mini, Apple relied in part on the design of the Android browser. The navigation elements at the *bottom of the screen* take up space, and on the Nexus 7, there’s no way to make them disappear.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Has it grown more pixels then?

And why's it suddenly only about the browser?


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Has it grown more pixels then?
> 
> And why's it suddenly only about the browser?


It's, what, what?

Has what grown more pixels? I don't think anyone's suggested anything has?

Why's what suddenly only about the browser? afaict, I've read the article you linked to about Tim Cook's 'odd outburst,' and followed a link in that article to an article explaining what they thought his 'odd outburst' was about.

I'm not sure that suggests all of anything is only about anything.


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Has it grown more pixels then?
> 
> And why's it suddenly only about the browser?


 
Its not only about the browser, it just happens that surfing the web is one of the areas which shows up aspect ratio issues nicely. 

lol @ grown more pixels. They are talking about physical screen size. Give it up eh.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

The aspect ratio matters. You see more on a less skinny screen. The number of actual pixels is not important.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

So, just to wrap it up: 1024 x 768 is clearly better than 1280 x 800 in all areas despite the latter's substantial hike in resolution, and 16:9 is a terrible, terrible idea for portable devices unless we're talking about the iPhone 5, where it becomes a compelling reason to upgrade?

Awesome.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 26, 2012)

lol


----------



## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> So, just to wrap it up: 1024 x 768 is clearly better than 1280 x 800 in all areas despite the latter's substantial hike in resolution, and 16:9 is a terrible, terrible idea for portable devices unless we're talking about the iPhone 5, where it becomes a compelling reason to upgrade?
> 
> Awesome.


 
Your comprehension skills are, as ever, faultless.


----------



## love detective (Oct 26, 2012)

to an outsider looking in, it's startling how slavish, obsessive and dogmatic both sides of these tedious arguments over bits of technology (that are essentially the same) are


----------



## Kanda (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> This is kind of an odd outburst by Tim Cook:


 
Why? They haven't made a 7" Tablet


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 26, 2012)

love detective said:


> to an outsider looking in, it's startling how slavish, obsessive and dogmatic both sides of these tedious arguments over bits of technology (that are essentially the same) are


 
You should have seen the Amiga v Atari war in the late 80s.  That had proper dogmatic zealotry and hatred of the opposition.


----------



## DieselBar (Oct 26, 2012)

basically if the mini ipad can show the full versions of websites (within its 1024 width) instead of the mobile version it will be better for internet browsing as you will have to scroll less

just as the nexus is better for showing tv/films as it will show none or little black bar

they are better for different tasks


----------



## Structaural (Oct 26, 2012)

Interesting geeky article on why the iPad 3 was quickly replaced with the iPad 4, all to do with saving money on chip yields.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/WebWise/entry/here-is-why-apple-launched-new-ipad


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> You should have seen the Amiga v Atari war in the late 80s. That had proper dogmatic zealotry and hatred of the opposition.


 
Luckily I was well prepared, having been a child soldier in the Commodore 64 vs ZX Spectrum conflict.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> You should have seen the Amiga v Atari war in the late 80s.  That had proper dogmatic zealotry and hatred of the opposition.



Nothing compared to the SNES vs MegaDrive wars of the early 90s though...I literally saw friends stop talking to each other over it...


----------



## Structaural (Oct 26, 2012)

elbows said:


> Luckily I was well prepared, having been a child soldier in the Commodore 64 vs ZX Spectrum conflict.


 
I was like the Swiss in that war. I had an Acorn Electron. 'A what?'


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)

Structaural said:


> I was like the Swiss in that war. I had an Acorn Electron. 'A what?'


 
Oh the joys of trying to load BBC games on it only to find problems such as the keyboard not working properly with the game.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 26, 2012)

elbows said:


> Luckily I was well prepared, having been a child soldier in the Commodore 64 vs ZX Spectrum conflict.


 
:: piano player stops with a clang::

Tell me mister, what regiment did you serve with in the war?

:: rests thumbs on his "The Sinclair Will Rise Again" belt buckle ::


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Structaural said:


> Interesting geeky article on why the iPad 3 was quickly replaced with the iPad 4, all to do with saving money on chip yields.
> 
> http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/WebWise/entry/here-is-why-apple-launched-new-ipad



That's actually a persuasive argument...


----------



## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> You should have seen the Amiga v Atari war in the late 80s.  That had proper dogmatic zealotry and hatred of the opposition.



Amiga 4000 or gtfo


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That's actually a persuasive argument...





> what could have... I feel... I don’t think... let’s assume... Let’s assume that A5X is a square chip (actually it is not)... Apple is likely... We don’t know the size of A6X... I feel the yields at 32nm are good for Apple... Assuming yields are similar... I am sure that 45nm must be cheaper compared to 32nm... But I feel... There could be... It estimated... Apple must have been... A6X on the other hand is likely to be... If we apply the same rules, I feel it must cost... This are all hypothetical figure... Apple could be saving... which I feel is very conservative...


tbf, that looks like quite a bit of conjecture, possibly built on a solid base.

Why did Apple drop the iPad 3 and not the iPad 2? Die size?

If I was a bit more cynical, I might suggest that in avoiding the number '3' and renaming it the 'new' iPad, Apple might've already been looking ahead to an incremental upgrade, which'd allow the '3' to be dropped without too much hoo-ha for most people, except those who're actually following the finer details of launch announcements. Anyone can tell that a 4 comes after a 3. But anyone with a 'new' iPad who wasn't following the precise ins and outs might not think too much about other people having Retina iPads. Which theirs is, after all.

Why'd the 3 be dropped? Because if you're looking at keeping a cheaper entry-point iPad, it - surely - makes sense to keep it as the non-retina 2 instead of dropping >£80 on the price of the 'new' iPad / no. 3.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

Getting rid of the numbers allows them to do updates whenever it's convenient for their development and manufacturing. When you look at their sales over time, there's huge dips and peaks as people get themselves worked up over the new one. Smoothing them out just makes things easy.


----------



## magneze (Oct 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> You should have seen the Amiga v Atari war in the late 80s. That had proper dogmatic zealotry and hatred of the opposition.


I called them Amoebas. Some people really got wound up about it.


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)




----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

elbows said:


>


Is that a to-scale mock-up of the mini's screen resolution?


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)

No, its the Atari ST crash bombs, but look at the aspect ratio of the handle!


----------



## Sunray (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Custom launchers, custom screens, removeable battery, removable storage, widgets, offline Google maps, change all default apps, NFC support, micro USB port rather than a proprietary connector, visible file system....


 
Point by point

Custom Launchers - Trivial
Custom Screens - Trivial
Removable battery - Minor. 10 hour battery life is excellent and a spare would be ££ sitting doing not a lot most of the time.
Removable storage - Minor
NFC - irrelevant
Micro USB. Old Skool, wheres the VGA or HDMI out?
File system, Old skool and overly complicated for a consumer device.
I now own a iPad Mini to see if I use it.  If I don't will give it to my Mum. If I do will buy her one.

I don't buy crappy computer hardware.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Point by point
> 
> Custom Launchers - Trivial
> Custom Screens - Trivial
> ...


Oh, alright then. Because _you_ find them trivial I guess they must be then, even if I - and others - find them very, very useful.


----------



## elbows (Oct 26, 2012)

I, I , I.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 26, 2012)

It's obviously going to be a huge success and sold out, which proves they can get away with charging whatever they want. Though I wouldn't be that surprised if next year we see a retina version for the same price and this one slightly cheaper to chip away at the compertition.


----------



## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Point by point
> 
> Custom Launchers - Trivial
> Custom Screens - Trivial
> ...



You're doing your Harry Enfield character thing again.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 26, 2012)

Sorry I missed a point

Firky - Irrelevant


----------



## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh, alright then. Because _you_ find them trivial I guess they must be then, even if I - and others - find them very, very useful.


 
Spare battery is a waste of a substantial (?) amount of money but the thick end of a grand on a Macbook Air for occasional use in a library isn't. Flawless logic and reasoning by Sunray.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 26, 2012)

If you want to go buy cheap hardware you go right ahead. I don't.

Whats 'logical' about buying computer hardware?

Buy the best you can afford at the time. It lasts much longer.

I point out that I know what Hollis wanted and suggested what I know to be the perfect fit. You are free to put words into my mouth, doesn't make you right. Its a fantastic piece of computer hardware for doing actual work in the library. If you can't afford it that's your problem, not a problem with my suggestion.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Sorry I missed a point
> 
> Firky - Irrelevant



Yup Mini Me was funnier and more interesting back in the day rather than this teachers pet version...


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I point out that I know what Hollis wanted and suggested what I know to be the perfect fit. You are free to put words into my mouth, doesn't make you right. Its a fantastic piece of computer hardware for doing actual work in the library. If you can't afford it that's your problem, not a problem with my suggestion.


The cheaper Transformer was a better suggestion.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

The cases and keyboards looks to be coming on stream:



http://9to5mac.com/2012/10/26/zagg-...-featuring-bluetooth-keyboard-starting-at-89/


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Clunky, awkward compromises.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Clunky, awkward compromises.


 
Like plugging a keyboard into a tablet without a proper OS?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> The cheaper Transformer was a better suggestion.


 
In your opinion, which knowing what he does and a Android v OSX and the support and backing of Apple and their shops with in shop training etc. The Apple comes out so far ahead the Android is a comedy option. e.g. Print a page from your transformer to a networked printer? This isn't the most complicated thing to ask of a computer, it is 2012 after all. The Apple can auto discover the printer with a click or two, probably auto download an install printer specific drivers too. Can Android? Do printer specific driver exist for Android?


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Like plugging a keyboard into a tablet without a proper OS?


Sorry, what are you on about?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> In your opinion, which knowing what he does and a Android v OSX and the support and backing of Apple and their shops with in shop training etc. The Apple comes out so far ahead the Android is a comedy option. e.g. Print a page from your transformer to a networked printer? This isn't the most complicated thing to ask of a computer, it is 2012 after all. The Apple can auto discover the printer with a click or two, probably auto download an install printer specific drivers too. Can Android? Do printer specific driver exist for Android?


 
How often do you print from your iPad? I've not needed to do that once.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> In your opinion, which knowing what he does and a Android v OSX and the support and backing of Apple and their shops with in shop training etc. The Apple comes out so far ahead the Android is a comedy option. e.g. Print a page from your transformer to a networked printer? This isn't the most complicated thing to ask of a computer, it is 2012 after all. The Apple can auto discover the printer with a click or two, probably auto download an install printer specific drivers too. Can Android? Do printer specific driver exist for Android?


You really need to have a go on the Asus because you really don't appear to know much about its capabilities at all. Yes, you can send documents to a printer via a variety of means and there's plenty of drivers available - e.g. Epson. 

Mind you, with the £600 he'd be saving on the Asus he could buy his own high end printer and still have enough for a holiday!  

He didn't ask about printing, btw, but there you go.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Sorry, what are you on about?


 
The only reason I'd choose an android laptop thing over a real windows computer is the battery life. Hence compromise.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> The only reason I'd choose an android laptop thing over a real windows computer is the battery life. Hence compromise.


What would be the 'compromises' for making notes in a library?

I speak as someone who owns a very good Windows 7 ThinkPad laptop that has remained on the shelf since I bought the Asus - and I can't see me using it any time soon either. The Asus has effectively completely replaced my ThinkPad, which, I have to say, surprised me a little.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How often do you print from your iPad? I've not needed to do that once.


It's the entire reason I've got an Airprint printer downstairs. (Though, tbf, it can now be used with my MacBook, too.)

Incredibly useful for quick printing of documents, drafts and .pdfs, particularly if I'm browsing and CBA to come upstairs.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> It's the entire reason I've got an Airprint printer downstairs. (Though, tbf, it can now be used with my MacBook, too.)
> 
> Incredibly useful for quick printing of documents, drafts and .pdfs, particularly if I'm browsing and CBA to come upstairs.


 
Fair enough, I guess it's about use? One reason I wanted a tablet was to reduce the amount of paper in my work life (printed documents like agendas and note pads etc) so printing from one makes little sense for me...


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Fair enough, I guess it's about use? One reason I wanted a tablet was to reduce the amount of paper in my work life (printed documents like agendas and note pads etc) so printing from one makes little sense for me...


Whereas I wanted it - in part - for work. And no matter how good your tablet, you can't annotate a .pdf in anything approaching a sensible or easily-findable way.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Whereas I wanted it - in part - for work. And no matter how good your tablet, you can't annotate a .pdf in anything approaching a sensible or easily-findable way.


 
Can't you open it up in iBooks and do that?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> You really need to have a go on the Asus because you really don't appear to know much about its capabilities at all. Yes, you can send documents to a printer via a variety of means and there's plenty of drivers available - e.g. Epson.
> 
> Mind you, with the £600 he'd be saving on the Asus he could buy his own high end printer and still have enough for a holiday!
> 
> He didn't ask about printing, btw, but there you go.



I know as I've looked.  Android doesn't have native printing. You have to pay for an App to do it and its a mess.  Being in a library, printing something out a network printer isn't an unreasonable request and you saying that a non desktop OS that doesn't have native (or network) printer support is the preferred option? These sorts of issues as this isn't the only one and I didn't even look too hard, Active directory access, exchange access, even connecting to a windows workgroup, enterprise security, the list is glaring. 

These all add up, making Android the comedy option for doing some work in the library.   Might be saving 600 quid and buying a huge time sink in the process. If you value your time at zero fine, but I can't be bothered messing about getting something simple as printing a page to a networked printer which is what your most likely to find in a library.  Just want to focus on the task at hand. 

Do Asus offer training in their  shops on the Android OS? 

You are focusing on the price and seemingly forgetting all the rest of the deal.  Its crazy talk to be frank and I will attack such suggestions because its shockingly poor advice.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How often do you print from your iPad? I've not needed to do that once.


 
Never, its a derail about my suggestion of a Mac Air 11" over a Transformer.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Never, its a derail about my suggestion of a Mac Air 11" over a Transformer.


 
Inceptionderail...and so it goes...


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I know as I've looked. Android doesn't have native printing. You have to pay for an App to do it and its a mess. Being in a library, printing something out a network printer isn't an unreasonable request and you saying that a non desktop OS that doesn't have native (or network) printer support is the preferred option? These sorts of issues as this isn't the only one and I didn't even look too hard, Active directory access, exchange access, even connecting to a windows workgroup, enterprise security, the list is glaring.
> 
> These all add up, making Android the comedy option for doing some work in the library. Might be saving 600 quid and buying a huge time sink in the process. If you value your time at zero fine, but I can't be bothered messing about getting something simple as printing a page to a networked printer which is what your most likely to find in a library. Just want to focus on the task at hand.
> 
> ...


Your really need to take a closer look at your insistence that spending a _thousand pounds_ on a laptop for the simple duties of taking notes in a library represents a sensible choice.

Even going along with your rather desperate red herring about printers and in-shop training (_what?!_), a basic £250 Windows laptop would do the job perfectly well, as would the Asus.

There is no justification at all for someone spending four times as much unless they have (a) money to burn or (b) they love Apple gadgets so much they don't care how much they spend.


----------



## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yup Mini Me was funnier and more interesting back in the day rather than this teachers pet version...


----------



## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> If you can't afford it that's your problem, not a problem with my suggestion.


 
Oh god, you're getting worse.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How often do you print from your iPad? I've not needed to do that once.


 
"Bit too obvious, I'm afraid."

And I do mean that.  You're now claiming that in all the time you use your tablet you've never wanted to print an airplane ticket, a spreadsheet, a receipt, an argos pickup receipt, directions, an email, a spreadsheet, a photo...

...are you sure you're using it for something other than a coffee table decoration?

And believe me, I'm going to dock...ooh...a billion points if you respond with "Oh if I want to do that I use a desktop", because that would be absolutely fucking stupid.  And I aim this one every bit as much at Android, even allowing for their automated pdf conversion.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Can't you open it up in iBooks and do that?


You're kidding!

Having a stack of hand-annotated articles is nothing any electronic device can currently reproduce. And, tbh, I struggle to credit that there'll ever be an electronic interface that can replicate the process of annotation, particularly when it's annotating lots of things with the intention of synthesising them into something coherent.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> "Bit too obvious, I'm afraid."
> 
> And I do mean that. You're now claiming that in all the time you use your tablet you've never wanted to print an airplane ticket, a spreadsheet, a receipt, an argos pickup receipt, directions, an email, a spreadsheet, a photo...
> 
> ...


 
I've not once needed to or have printed anything in all the time I've owned and used my tablet. This is a fact. People have printed things for me (much to my annoyance, I'm constantly telling people to just email the link to the doc!).

Outside work I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to actually print anything in the last two years. In other shocking news I've not bought a print newspaper in roughly five years.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

firky said:


>


 
You were man, I don't know what happened to you, it's like a amazing dog that's had their nuts chopped.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> You're kidding!
> 
> Having a stack of hand-annotated articles is nothing any electronic device can currently reproduce. And, tbh, I struggle to credit that there'll ever be an electronic interface that can replicate the process of annotation, particularly when it's annotating lots of things with the intention of synthesising them into something coherent.


 
Fair enough, I don't ever have that worry due to the nature of my work...


----------



## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You were man, I don't know what happened to you, it's like a amazing dog that's had their nuts chopped.



I like the analogy! 

Don't get the lip on because I like my Nexus more than my ipad, life's. Way too short to fall out over such irrelevant crap.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

firky said:


> I like the analogy!
> 
> Don't get the lip on because I like my Nexus more than my ipad, life's. Way too short to fall out over such irrelevant crap.


 
Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 26, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Point by point
> 
> Custom Launchers - Trivial
> Custom Screens - Trivial
> ...


 
See, it's this sort of response that leaves me with only one question. What do you use these devices for?

I'm a geek, I know that. But I don't think I'm being particularly geekular in the way I use a tablet. I could probably sketch out a rough flowchart for how they work for me.

I use a tablet when I don't want to cart a laptop around

Primarily, I use it for 4 things (whatever FM may otherwise claim):

1) Web browsing
2) Checking email
3) Watching/listening to media.
4) Games

Based on the above, key additional features are:

1) Ability to open as wide a range of formats as possible
2) Ability to edit content when required
3) Ability to easily load media onto device
4) OS with good games

Things I've noticed so far from my iPads and Android tablets that are heavy hitting secondary features:

* Ability to add extra storage. 32 gig is not enough when HD movies are measured by the gig
* Ability to output to telly
* Batteries die when you least need it, so being able to plug in a spare is dead good
* Printing. Because quite often paper copy is just better.

Seem reasonable?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Primarily, I use it for 3 things:
> 
> 1) Web browsing
> 2) Checking email
> ...


Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.


----------



## elbows (Oct 29, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's one of the awful bits of Apple skeuomorphic design which has, at least, taught the world what "skeuomorphic" means.


 
Sounds like the man who gets blamed for the skeuomorphic design is on the way out:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/29...wett-out-ive-and-others-add-responsibilities/

And look what Ive now has responsibility for:



> Jony Ive will take over leadership of Human Interface teams in addition to his role as head on Industrial Design.


----------



## Cid (Oct 30, 2012)

Never a good sign when a company has to rely on one person to that extent... Dixons bloke is on the way out too, after only a few months and a £36 million golden hello. Who the fuck would employ a Dixons executive anyway? Cracks in the Apple foundations here.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 30, 2012)

elbows said:


> Sounds like the man who gets blamed for the skeuomorphic design is on the way out:
> 
> http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/29...wett-out-ive-and-others-add-responsibilities/
> 
> And look what Ive now has responsibility for:


 
To be fair to Forstall, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that Steve Jobs was the main driving force for the hideous tat:

http://www.cultofmac.com/189707/ste...nd-game-centers-hideous-skeuomorphic-designs/http://www.macrumors.com/2012/09/11/apples-designers-clashing-over-tacky-software-skeuomorphisms/

Either way though, in my opinion Ives taking on the helm of UI design is good news.  Pretty much all of Ives work follows Dieter Rams philosophy of design, which suits me just fine.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 30, 2012)

Good news in both cases, IMO.
Although I would like a little bit of colour back in OSX. Making the icons in the LH pane of the Finder monochrome made them much harder to tell apart.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Good news in both cases, IMO.
> Although I would like a little bit of colour back in OSX. Making the icons in the LH pane of the Finder monochrome made them much harder to tell apart.



In terms of Apple's business and their bets on the future all these moves make a lot of sense and are good ones. Rationalizing the online/cloud products under one person, merging iOS and OS X under another while allowing Ives design finger prints all over everything is the right way to go.

The main risk I see is with Ive being spread thin so less of his talent comes to bear. Much like what happened to Nintendo when Shiguru Myomato become so big he no longer worked as directly on games and their quality dropped...


----------



## Structaural (Oct 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Good news in both cases, IMO.
> Although I would like a little bit of colour back in OSX. Making the icons in the LH pane of the Finder monochrome made them much harder to tell apart.


 
That is good news, all that stitching everywhere was making the OSs look decidely old fashioned.
Forstall always seemed to me to have copied the worst personality traits from Jobs.

Whenever I have to use Lion (I haven't used ML yet), I'm stunned by the amount of grey, it's like they put the OS in mourning colours. I find it really hard to find anything.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 30, 2012)

Just to clarify, I've never had to print from my ios devices either...... thats why I have a work computer!


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 30, 2012)




----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)




----------



## maldwyn (Oct 30, 2012)




----------



## Fez909 (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> You're kidding!
> 
> Having a stack of hand-annotated articles is nothing any electronic device can currently reproduce. And, tbh, I struggle to credit that there'll ever be an electronic interface that can replicate the process of annotation, particularly when it's annotating lots of things with the intention of synthesising them into something coherent.


 
The HTC Flyer has a stylus and a document viewer which lets you annotate PDFs, and then they are searchable.  How's that?


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 31, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I know as I've looked. Android doesn't have native printing. You have to pay for an App to do it and its a mess. Being in a library, printing something out a network printer isn't an unreasonable request and you saying that a non desktop OS that doesn't have native (or network) printer support is the preferred option? These sorts of issues as this isn't the only one and I didn't even look too hard, Active directory access, exchange access, even connecting to a windows workgroup, enterprise security, the list is glaring.
> 
> These all add up, making Android the comedy option for doing some work in the library. Might be saving 600 quid and buying a huge time sink in the process. If you value your time at zero fine, but I can't be bothered messing about getting something simple as printing a page to a networked printer which is what your most likely to find in a library. Just want to focus on the task at hand.
> 
> ...


 
*Printing* - You have to pay for an app, yes, but it's possible.  PrinterShare seems to be the best, although I'm only going off other people's reviews as I've never needed to print from Android.

*Active Directory* - ActiveDir Manager

*Exchange* - Native to Android

*Windows Workgroups* - ES File Explorer

*Enterprise Security* - I'm not sure that's something to boast about when it comes to IOS which, I believe, can be jailbroken from a slider on a website?  Seems pretty insecure to me.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> *Printing* - You have to pay for an app, yes, but it's possible. PrinterShare seems to be the best, although I'm only going off other people's reviews as I've never needed to print from Android.


*edit to avoid derail.

It takes seconds to print from an Android phone and it's explained in the appropriate thread: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/android-os-list-your-killer-apps.216172/page-71#post-11655572


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> *edit to avoid derail.
> 
> It takes seconds to print from an Android phone and it's explained in the appropriate thread: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/android-os-list-your-killer-apps.216172/page-71#post-11655572


 
It's funny how Apple's ecosystem is better because of the available apps, and their marketing blurb used to be that there's "an app for that", but when it's Android, it needs to be native or it's worthless.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

Charles Arthur has done the Guardian iPad Mini review, so you know it's going to be a 5 star one. 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/31/ipad-mini-review

As ever, the comments are more interesting.


----------



## wurlycurly (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Charles Arthur has done the Guardian iPad Mini review, so you know it's going to be a 5 star one.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/31/ipad-mini-review
> 
> As ever, the comments are more interesting.


 
It's staggering that he's given it five stars, even more staggering that he failed to inform his readers that Apple paid for his flights and accommodation for the launch. The Guardian ought to be ashamed.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 31, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> The HTC Flyer has a stylus and a document viewer which lets you annotate PDFs, and then they are searchable. How's that?


Thing is, I'm not sure whether you're being serious or taking the piss 

There are quotes and ideas that I'm intimately familiar with in - for example - the 1,400ish page Oxford Handbook of Criminology, and which I can find in about 5 seconds flat. The book's annotated top to bottom. I know where the quotation 'feels' in the book, and I know exactly where it is on the page. It's got a Cartesian grid reference in my head, if you will. And, tbf, that's often the case with decent quotations - the bigness of the idea will make a place on a page stick in my head.

That, within one text, is utterly unreplicable in electronic form. IME.

And when what I'm looking for is to amalgamate 10-100 .pdf files into one semi-coherent piece of work - then, again IME, there is just no way that modern technology can begin to come close to what can be *very easily* done with arranged stacks of hand-annotated .pdf files. With each .pdf having its own look, feel, depth, cartesian points, etc, etc.

Even the most outstanding of devices can never have real-world depth or weight. And small things - like the ability to change text size - can instantly fuck a Kindle reference (for example) royally up the arse.

Having said that, kindle files can be great for (e.g.) searching for 'wastepaper basket' in a 200 page book. But e-versions can *never* be as concrete as real documents. And that - IMO - will always make them of very limited use, for some purposes.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Oct 31, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I've not once needed to or have printed anything in all the time I've owned and used my tablet. This is a fact. People have printed things for me (much to my annoyance, I'm constantly telling people to just email the link to the doc!).
> 
> Outside work I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to actually print anything in the last two years. In other shocking news I've not bought a print newspaper in roughly five years.


Me neither, I got rid of my colour printer, i just don't need it.  There's several different print shops within 20 mins walk of my home so I told myself if I need to I can walk over and get things printed.  I haven't needed it at all. Clients are happy to view the work on my ipad, most of them have their own now anyway. In anycase gone are the days when we reviewed things on paper, I put the docs in their dropbox and they don't print them off either. I reckon that nothing gets printed off til it goes to the pattern cutter in the factory.  The ipad might be an expensive gadget but I 've spent way more on printers and printing in the past decade.  Enough to buy another 4 like this I reckon.  Now I have a cheap as Chips Samsung laser monochrome for printing off stuff like boarding passes and thats enough.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Charles Arthur has done the Guardian iPad Mini review, so you know it's going to be a 5 star one.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/31/ipad-mini-review
> 
> As ever, the comments are more interesting.


 
Yep, the top rated comment (348 recommendations) is:



> 2) The guardian is hardly the only website to love apple products and consistently gives them 5 or 4.5 stars - just look at CNet, techradar, t3, and thousands of others.
> 3) Guardian staff every right to like Apple products! It is not some sort of apple guardian conspiracy! This is only the opinion of one journalist. Its nothing to get upset about. Enjoy your Samsung/Google/Amazon/Microsoft product. Im sure its excellent too


 
Though there's a lot of frothing conspiracock-lite stuff, with a few folks making all kinds of wild allegations. You folks honestly think that Google and other manufacturers aren't rolling out the freebies and press bonuses? - from my experience they're far more obliging with free products and invitations than secretive old Apple


----------



## Sunray (Oct 31, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> *Printing* - You have to pay for an app, yes, but it's possible. PrinterShare seems to be the best, although I'm only going off other people's reviews as I've never needed to print from Android.
> 
> *Active Directory* - ActiveDir Manager
> 
> ...


 
You have to buy application ergo Android does not have printing built into the OS.

Active Directory, oh another app. 

Windows Workgroups ... what that another app.

IOS has fully fledged Enterprise security tools for OSX and Windows. Jail breaking it and Enterprise security are not the same thing. http://www.apple.com/iphone/business/integration/


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 31, 2012)

Sunray said:


> You have to buy application ergo Android does not have printing built into the OS.


 
Sorry, but that's not correct.  Google offer a very similar solution to Apple.  Apple requires you to have an airprint compatible printer, Google requires you to have a Cloud Print compatible printer, or for older printers connected to a desktop you can run cloud print on the computer.  I've not tried Airprint, so I don't know if I can do a similar trick on my mac, but I imagine it can.

I've got a personal interest in iOS integration with AD, so any pointers or links you can give with tips on it would be appreciated.  When I last looked into this (end of last year, so much will have changed) it came to a sticky end very quickly.

I'd also point out that the link you give on enterprise integration isn't really a strong argument for either OS.  Both OS support ActiveSync, as well as other standard mail protocols.  Both have got IMAP, CalDav and LDAP.  Both have got  IPSec, L2TP/IPSec and PPTP.  I'd be interested in which enterprise benefits you see Apple having over Android, as I'd like to be .  Personally, both devices are a nightmare for IT departments, as is the whole BYOD fiaso.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

tarannau said:


> Yep, the top rated comment (348 recommendations) is:


I can't find that comment, but seeing as you're bringing up highest ranking comments, this one has picked up no less than 900 votes which is _considerably_ more than any other comment on that page:


> sorry but NEXUS wins hands down. Jobs didn't want Apple to go down the 7" tablet route but now that it has Apple is doomed. Well at least there's that boat.....


Followed by this one with 515 votes:


> I don't like to jump on the bias bandwagon but one makes it exceedingly difficult
> 
> 16GB Nexus 7 £159 16GB iPad mini £269 (69% more expensive)
> 32GB Nexus 7 £199 32GB iPad mini £349 (75% more expensive)
> ...


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

tarannau said:


> Though there's a lot of frothing conspiracock-lite stuff, with a few folks making all kinds of wild allegations. You folks honestly think that Google and other manufacturers aren't rolling out the freebies and press bonuses? - from my experience they're far more obliging with free products and invitations than secretive old Apple


What is your personal experience with free products and invitations from Google and Apple?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 31, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Sorry, but that's not correct. Google offer a very similar solution to Apple. Apple requires you to have an airprint compatible printer, Google requires you to have a Cloud Print compatible printer, or for older printers connected to a desktop you can run cloud print on the computer. I've not tried Airprint, so I don't know if I can do a similar trick on my mac, but I imagine it can.
> 
> I've got a personal interest in iOS integration with AD, so any pointers or links you can give with tips on it would be appreciated. When I last looked into this (end of last year, so much will have changed) it came to a sticky end very quickly.
> 
> I'd also point out that the link you give on enterprise integration isn't really a strong argument for either OS. Both OS support ActiveSync, as well as other standard mail protocols. Both have got IMAP, CalDav and LDAP. Both have got IPSec, L2TP/IPSec and PPTP. I'd be interested in which enterprise benefits you see Apple having over Android, as I'd like to be . Personally, both devices are a nightmare for IT departments, as is the whole BYOD fiaso.


 


Lemon Eddy said:


> Sorry, but that's not correct. Google offer a very similar solution to Apple. Apple requires you to have an airprint compatible printer, Google requires you to have a Cloud Print compatible printer, or for older printers connected to a desktop you can run cloud print on the computer. I've not tried Airprint, so I don't know if I can do a similar trick on my mac, but I imagine it can.
> 
> I've got a personal interest in iOS integration with AD, so any pointers or links you can give with tips on it would be appreciated. When I last looked into this (end of last year, so much will have changed) it came to a sticky end very quickly.
> 
> I'd also point out that the link you give on enterprise integration isn't really a strong argument for either OS. Both OS support ActiveSync, as well as other standard mail protocols. Both have got IMAP, CalDav and LDAP. Both have got IPSec, L2TP/IPSec and PPTP. I'd be interested in which enterprise benefits you see Apple having over Android, as I'd like to be . Personally, both devices are a nightmare for IT departments, as is the whole BYOD fiaso.


 
The original post was massive derail and essentially Android v OSX, not as you think Android v iOS.

The Editor delusionally thinks is a better solution to a task because he bought into it and its cheap. I disagree and think that the 11" Mac Book air is a fantastic solution to working on the move. Its not the only solution, but in the specific case in point, IMO it was the perfect solution. I would never consider Android as an alternative to a fully fledged desktop OS.

In answer to the above, I'd not try to sort any of that out, personally I'd go down the Citrix receiver route and XenDesktop for the BYOD its an amazing solution to all of the above. Corporate grade IT management policies, ability for working anywhere and just need to be able to connect to the net. Available for all platforms, Android, iPhone, Blackberry, iPad etc.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

Sunray said:


> The original post was massive derail and essentially Android v OSX, not as you think Android v iOS.
> 
> The Editor delusionally thinks is a better solution to a task because he bought into it and its cheap. I disagree and think that the 11" Mac Book air is a fantastic solution to working on the move. Its not the only solution, but in the specific case in point, IMO it was the perfect solution. I would never consider Android as an alternative to a fully fledged desktop OS.


Suggesting a £1,000 laptop as the perfect solution for a task as simple as making notes in a library suggests that you've either got more money than sense or you've lost all touch with reality. This was _Hollis_ asking, not a well-heeled city trader or a rich kid!

A Windows laptop for a quarter of the price will do the job every bit as well, as would an Asus Transformer. But you wouldn't know anything about that because you've never even used one, have you?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 31, 2012)

Sunray said:


> The original post was massive derail and essentially Android v OSX, not as you think Android v iOS.
> 
> The Editor delusionally thinks is a better solution to a task because he bought into it and its cheap. I disagree and think that the 11" Mac Book air is a fantastic solution to working on the move. Its not the only solution, but in the specific case in point, IMO it was the perfect solution. I would never consider Android as an alternative to a fully fledged desktop OS.


 
Ah, my mistake, different topic.

Looked at Citrix, but unfortunately the scenarios we've got require offnet access as essential.  God I hate BYOD.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 31, 2012)

Sunray said:


> The Editor delusionally thinks is a better solution to a task because he bought into it and its cheap. I disagree and think that the 11" Mac Book air is a fantastic solution to working on the move. Its not the only solution, but in the specific case in point, IMO it was the perfect solution. I would never consider Android as an alternative to a fully fledged desktop OS.


What surprises me, is that you're even bothering to argue it 

I'll send a packet of bacon / fakon to the first person to find an occasion on which the ed has been argued round to thinking that an Apple device would be a good choice for someone. First class postage, possibly even tracked.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I'll send a packet of bacon / fakon to the first person to find an occasion on which the ed has been argued round to thinking that an Apple device would be a good choice for someone. First class postage, possibly even tracked.


I'll get the grill on.



editor said:


> The iPad 2 is easily the best all round package for people that want a largish screen tablet.





editor said:


> I had a go on a MacBook Retina yesterday. It's a fucking gorgeous machine and that screen is lovely for photographers - if I was working more as a photographer I'd be seriously tempted.
> 
> But then I saw the price. Ouch!


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> I'll get the grill on.


Fakon or bacon? PM your address, and I'll get it off later this afternoon 

e2a: 

More fool me!

"Argued round to." I forgot those critical words!

Fakon / bacon is still on offer!



e2a2: and posts before the apocalyp3Gse don't count  (Though I'll still consider a half-pack. Given that wasn't an original condition.)


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Fakon or bacon? PM your address, and I'll get it off later this afternoon
> 
> e2a:
> 
> ...


Can't be arsed with all this goal post shifting nonsense.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Can't be arsed with all this goal post shifting nonsense.


Shifting the goal posts that were in the original quote?  Why do you think they were there? I'm fully aware you once had a 3GS. I don't think I've *ever* seen you being argued round to agreeing that an Apple device might be the best choice for someone, when you originally thought it wasn't. My original reply to Sunray was wrt 'why bother arguing,' too.

Goalposts've been constant, and there for a bloody good reason - though briefly forgotten


----------



## magneze (Oct 31, 2012)

When has anyone been argued around to a different point of view on here or on the internet in general? It's not something that happens a lot.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I don't think I've *ever* seen you being argued round to agreeing that an Apple device might be the best choice for someone, when you originally thought it wasn't.


Why would I need to be "argued around"? I don't have a problem acknowledging a damn good product, and have clearly stated that some Apple products were fantastic devices.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 31, 2012)

It's getting some great reviews, the verge video gives a good idea of the ux too...


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Thing is, I'm not sure whether you're being serious or taking the piss
> 
> There are quotes and ideas that I'm intimately familiar with in - for example - the 1,400ish page Oxford Handbook of Criminology, and which I can find in about 5 seconds flat. The book's annotated top to bottom. I know where the quotation 'feels' in the book, and I know exactly where it is on the page. It's got a Cartesian grid reference in my head, if you will. And, tbf, that's often the case with decent quotations - the bigness of the idea will make a place on a page stick in my head.
> 
> ...


 
I wasn't taking the piss.  Have a look at what you wrote:



> Having a stack of hand-annotated articles is nothing any electronic device can currently reproduce. And, tbh, I struggle to credit that there'll ever be an electronic interface that can replicate the process of annotation


 
The Flyer can annotate PDFs. In your handwriting.  Using a pen! And guess what?  You can even use the Cartesian coordinate system to find the note if you want, but I think that's a bit silly myself and perhaps it is you who is taking the piss. 

PDFs don't change text size, so your kindle point is irrelevant.  The rest of your argument is a straight analogue v digital debate, which is incredibly boring and I wish you'd just said that to begin with. 

What you should have said, instead of your wild assertion that no digital device can ever do [x], is that you prefer the old way of doing things as you're good at it/efficient/whatever.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 31, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Ah, my mistake, different topic.
> 
> Looked at Citrix, but unfortunately the scenarios we've got require offnet access as essential. God I hate BYOD.


 
Welcome to a world of IT pain .  The consumerization (gah I have to use the z as its a word the yanks invented)  of IT has really only just begun.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 31, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> The Flyer can annotate PDFs. In your handwriting. Using a pen! And guess what? You can even use the Cartesian coordinate system to find the note if you want, but I think that's a bit silly myself and perhaps it is you who is taking the piss.


 
Paper documents have all sorts of usability advantages over screens. Those advantages can't be simulated on a computer, they're intrinsic to the medium.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

magneze said:


> When has anyone been argued around to a different point of view on here or on the internet in general? It's not something that happens a lot.


I think it happens more in the politics boards - I've certainly had my opinion changed a few times - but in the tech forum it sometimes feels more like arguing with cult members.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 31, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Paper documents have all sorts of usability advantages over screens. Those advantages can't be simulated on a computer, they're intrinsic to the medium.


 
I know there are differences and advantages and disadvantages, but nothing that Mrs Q has said so far is an advantage or disadvantage in either medium.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

Back on topic, Apple-loving John Gruber isn't impressed with that screen:


> “Wow, it feels like a Kindle.”
> “Ew, the screen is terrible.”
> That was my wife’s initial reaction when I handed her the iPad Mini to see what she, an avid daily user of an iPad 3, thought. Her initial reaction matched mine exactly, and perfectly encapsulates the experience. The iPad Mini is not a device you need to spend a lot of time with to understand. My snap reaction from a week ago remains unchanged after a week of daily use.
> It’s really light and easy to hold one-handed. The hardware design — chamfered edges, less tapered back, metal rather than plastic buttons — strikes me as better, more elegant, than that of the full-size iPad 3/4. But it’s disappointing to go non-retina after using the retina iPad for the last seven months. All of the accolades and advantages of retina displays work in reverse. I adore the size and form factor of the iPad Mini, but I also adore the retina display on my full-size iPad. My ideal iPad would be a Mini with a retina display.


 
He then goes on to sing the praises of a smaller tablet over the larger iPad, adding, "If the Mini had a retina display, I’d switch from the iPad 3 in a heartbeat."

http://daringfireball.net/2012/10/ipad_mini


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 31, 2012)

Surely there will be a Retina mini out in 6 months, there has to be.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Back on topic, Apple-loving John Gruber isn't impressed with that screen:
> 
> 
> He then goes on to sing the praises of a smaller tablet over the larger iPad, adding, "If the Mini had a retina display, I’d switch from the iPad 3 in a heartbeat."
> ...


 
and then he does anyway...


----------



## wurlycurly (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> I can't find that comment, but seeing as you're bringing up highest ranking comments, this one has picked up no less than 900 votes which is _considerably_ more than any other comment on that page:
> Followed by this one with 515 votes:


 
My post (at 1.30am) was easily attracting the most votes but The Guardian deemed it appropriate to delete it early this morning. I simply pointed out a fact that is already in the public domain, namely that Charles Arthur's flight and accommodation to the mini launch were paid by Apple. I'm not entirely sure how that fact-stating can be seen as "not abiding by our community standards" but intend t ask the Reader's Editor for a clarification.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 31, 2012)

Charles Arthur's video review of the Kindle Fire and iPad mini side by side.

I wish he'd done it against the Nexus 7


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Charles Arthur's video review of the Kindle Fire and iPad mini side by side.
> 
> I wish he'd done it against the Nexus 7


Seems a bit pointless to compare it against a device costing _half the price._


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 31, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Charles Arthur's video review of the Kindle Fire and iPad mini side by side.


 
Charles Arthur is a piss awful tech journalist, but his video reviews make his Partridge-like level of insight entertaining.

"One thing you can't see from the camera is the weight"

Thanks for explaining that, Charles.  Good point.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Charles Arthur is a piss awful tech journalist, but his video reviews make his Partridge-like level of insight entertaining.
> 
> "One thing you can't see from the camera is the weight"
> 
> Thanks for explaining that, Charles. Good point.


Indeed.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Back on topic, Apple-loving John Gruber isn't impressed with that screen:
> 
> 
> He then goes on to sing the praises of a smaller tablet over the larger iPad, adding, "If the Mini had a retina display, I’d switch from the iPad 3 in a heartbeat."
> ...


 
This is the one thing that I found disappointing but at 279 there were going to be corners cut, the weight is far more important to me than the screen and its pleasing to hear that its nice and light.

The lighter these devices are the more accessible they are.  The UX is effected by the weight once it goes past some hard to define 'heft'.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

Price isnt the man reason they didnt go for retina display in this model at all, its about getting the weight/battery/heat/performance balance right. Going from an ipad 2 to an ipad 3 it was immediately clear what the downsides of retina tablets are so far. I'd have to try an ipad 4 to see how much progress they have made since then, but I still expect to be waiting a bit longer till an ipad mini is ripe for retina display. I'm sure they'd like to add it to next years model, but I cant quite bet my life that they will. It would be a safer bet if they were prepared to go for an intermediate res such as 1536x1152 but this has software design drawbacks.

People who've used a very high res tablet are the most likely to notice the resolution issue with the ipad mini, although the rise of the high res smartphones is probably speeding a change in perceptions about what resolution is acceptable these days. Microsofts attempts to pretend that 1366x768 for the 10.6" screen Surface RT display was great didnt fool many reviewers for long, but the fact M$ were prepared to go for that relatively low resolution in late 2012 indicates that non-retina resolutions arent exactly out in the wilderness at this point.

Oh I completely failed to shutup about resolution issues like I promised I would, what a surprise


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> People who've used a very high res tablet are the most likely to notice the resolution issue with the ipad mini, although the rise of the high res smartphones is probably speeding a change in perceptions about what resolution is acceptable these days. Microsofts attempts to pretend that 1366x768 for the 10.6" screen Surface RT display was great didnt fool many reviewers for long, but the fact M$ were prepared to go for that relatively low resolution in late 2012 indicates that non-retina resolutions arent exactly out in the wilderness at this point.


A lower res screen is perfectly acceptable if the price is lower.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> A lower res screen is perfectly acceptable if the price is lower.


 
Yeah but thats not the case with either the ipad mini or the MS Surface. And the large kindle tablet and the nexus 10 further muddy the waters concerning stupidly high resolutions and price, its all out of whack now and I'l be interested to see how many years the 'old-fashioned' resolutions that were the norm till recently hang on.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> Yeah but thats not the case with either the ipad mini or the MS Surface. And the large kindle tablet and the nexus 10 further muddy the waters concerning stupidly high resolutions and price, its all out of whack now and I'l be interested to see how many years the 'old-fashioned' resolutions that were the norm till recently hang on.


Well, I made the decision to buy the Asus with the lower res screen rather than pay an extra £200 for the retina-esque one and am most happy with my choice.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Well, I made the decision to buy the Asus with the lower res screen rather than pay an extra £200 for the retina-esque one and am most happy with my choice.


 
Yeah, I remember at the time that I had gone off on one about how awesome retina tablets are, and was failing miserably to convince you of the merits of retina for looking at photos in a pro situation. You helped me to realise that I'd gotten a bit ahead of the game, but then I got infuriated that you didnt apply the same logic to the ipad mini when we were speculating about its resolution well before it was announced.

I certainly agree that retina is not seen as essential just yet, which is why I am still able to occasionally eye the Surface RT with some curiosity without breaking down into tears over its resolution. I'd be lying if I said it didnt put me off a bit though. And perhaps I would have pre-ordered an ipad mini if it was a much higher resolution, I dont know.


----------



## Firky (Oct 31, 2012)

Amazon takes on the iPad Mini


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> What surprises me, is that you're even bothering to argue it
> 
> I'll send a packet of bacon / fakon to the first person to find an occasion on which the ed has been argued round to thinking that an Apple device would be a good choice for someone. First class postage, possibly even tracked.



I'll pay for someone to go on holiday if they find that.


----------



## Firky (Oct 31, 2012)

If I were him I'd be tempted to abuse my powers and edit posts and have a holiday on KE with bacon catering


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

I suspect it is possible to find occasions where editor has acknowledged that an apple product might be the right choice for a particular person in a particular scenario. But I'm not sure it would win me a holiday since I suspect you could say that on those occasions there is little evidence of editor having been argued round to thinking that way, he will just say that he's always acknowledged such things and hasnt u-turned in any way. And he wouldnt be fibbing, he'd just be placing a large wall between this scenario and the times he's tried to convince a potential apple customer that they should look at a much cheaper android device.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> Yeah, I remember at the time that I had gone off on one about how awesome retina tablets are, and was failing miserably to convince you of the merits of retina for looking at photos in a pro situation.


You really haven't remembered that correctly at all, but, whatevs. It's not important.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> I suspect it is possible to find occasions where editor has acknowledged that an apple product might be the right choice for a particular person in a particular scenario. But I'm not sure it would win me a holiday since I suspect you could say that on those occasions there is little evidence of editor having been argued round to thinking that way, he will just say that he's always acknowledged such things and hasnt u-turned in any way. And he wouldnt be fibbing, he'd just be placing a large wall between this scenario and the times he's tried to convince a potential apple customer that they should look at a much cheaper android device.


I have repeatedly praised Apple products here, but I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting cheaper, equally capable alternatives to posters who are looking to buy gear.

Not everyone can afford Apple prices, so I'd say it's good that there's people here willing to take the time to suggest other devices for people on a budget.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Not everyone can afford Apple prices, so I'd say it's good that there's people here willing to take the time to suggest other devices for people on a budget.


 
I'll go along with that, but I'm afraid thats one of the reasons I have to go on about apps. People must be alerted to all the differences to get the best purchasing advice. The problem is I dont think I've yet found the best way to describe the difference in app range & quality. Partly because the devil is in the detail, and I should probably acknowledge more often that a fair bit of what I ramble about is really connected to certain aspects of the app experience that are not exactly the bare essentials. All that swooshy stuff and aesthetics and flow. This stuff is optional, but despite its role in making the iphone & subsequent products such a success being acknowledged at the time, its taken years for me to see clear signs that the competition really got it. And these days when we talk about all these competing gizmos it's a factor that sometimes vanishes off the radar. However that doesnt seem to be the case very recently since I see this aspect has come up in a few peoples posts of late.

I should probably do a test where everytime I get pissed off when using a device, I put aside 10p. That would help me to place in context the apple premium, what am I actually getting over the course of a products lifetime that justifies the additional cost? I ditched windows years ago because it depressed me to spend so much time swearing and getting stressed or vaguely miffed by technology I'm supposed to be a lover of. Same with early windows tablets, same with windows CE phones. I paid a price in the hope of loving the tech again like the total geek that I am, for my life lacks direction without such things.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> I'll go along with that, but I'm afraid thats one of the reasons I have to go on about apps. People must be alerted to all the differences to get the best purchasing advice. The problem is I dont think I've yet found the best way to describe the difference in app range & quality.


I appreciate this only addresses the 'range' side of things, but in part you could suggest that people had a look at the Play store.

There's certainly a 'featured tablet apps' tab, which I found interesting browsing. (I found it quite hard to access tablet-specific info for subcategories of apps; but that might've been my cack-handedness with the Play store interface.)

The rest is, obv, harder to offer people first-hand experience of, without giving them some time with each tablet / platform they're interested in.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I appreciate this only addresses the 'range' side of things, but in part you could suggest that people had a look at the Play store.
> 
> There's certainly a 'featured tablet apps' tab, which I found interesting browsing. (I found it quite hard to access tablet-specific info for subcategories of apps; but that might've been my cack-handedness with the Play store interface.)


 
I dont think there is such a tablet subcategory thing, at least I never found one last time I looked.

How would you summarise your experience of browsing that featured tablet apps section? Maybe a dozen tablet apps that look proper, a lot of games, and a bit of dodgy looking chaff?


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> I dont think there is such a tablet subcategory thing, at least I never found one last time I looked.
> 
> How would you summarise your experience of browsing that featured tablet apps section? Maybe a dozen tablet apps that look proper, a lot of games, and a bit of dodgy looking chaff?


Yes there is. Google Play -> Apps -> Staff Choice For Tablets.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> How would you summarise your experience of browsing that featured tablet apps section?


I genuinely wouldn't summarise my experience. I'm unlikely to buy an Android tab in the near future, and my previous negative experiences with Android would leave me cautious of bias / turning anyone off something they might otherwise be interested in.

If someone was interested, I'd provide them with the info / link as one possible source of info (with a note that I'm not aware how comprehensive the 'featured apps' tab is) and let them judge for themselves!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 31, 2012)

firky said:


> If I were him I'd be tempted to abuse my powers and edit posts and have a holiday on KE with bacon catering


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 31, 2012)

It's all about user experience if the iPad mini offers the same excellent and high quality ux of the iPad then price shrinks quickly. Why pay less for a shitter experience? I mean tablets aren't a need, they're pure luxury so why waste your time and money?


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes there is. Google Play -> Apps -> Staff Choice For Tablets.


He was asking about tablet apps having their own area within the different categories of apps. eg show me all the medical apps that are for tablets. I know there is a general tablet apps featured section, thats what I was talking about in the rest of my post.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I genuinely wouldn't summarise my experience.


 
OK well you described browsing that section as interesting, What was interesting about it?


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2012)

elbows said:


> He was asking about tablet apps having their own area within the different categories of apps. eg show me all the medical apps that are for tablets. I know there is a general tablet apps featured section, thats what I was talking about in the rest of my post.


There's apps available that only show tablet optimised apps e.g. https://play.google.com/store/apps/...sMSwyLDEsImNvbS5hbmRyb21vLmRldjg2LmFwcDExOSJd and this 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/...iwidGFibGlmaWVkYXBwcy50YWJsaWZpZWRtYXJrZXQiXQ..


----------



## Structaural (Nov 1, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Charles Arthur is a piss awful tech journalist, but his video reviews make his Partridge-like level of insight entertaining.
> 
> "One thing you can't see from the camera is the weight"
> 
> Thanks for explaining that, Charles. Good point.


 
He's highly biased. Like a Sun journalist at a Tory conference. 

Notice how he knocks 9 quid of the iPad and adds 20 quid to the Kindle.

Can't anyone sit up straight anymore? This Jonny Ive cocked head look is very silly. What do their passport photos look like?


----------



## maldwyn (Nov 1, 2012)

Most reviews I've read are dissapointed with screen resolution.

I'd wait for the Retina


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Nov 1, 2012)

Structaural said:


> Can't anyone sit up straight anymore? This Jonny Ive cocked head look is very silly. What do their passport photos look like?


----------



## Structaural (Nov 1, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Most reviews I've read are dissapointed with screen resolution.
> 
> I'd wait for the Retina


 
That puts me off the most (well that and the price), I've only seen Retina pads and iphones recently.
We've an iPad 1 at work and it's well ropey looking after two years with an iPhone 4.
Funnily enough I don't mind in on a monitor, but that's much bigger.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Nov 1, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's all about user experience if the iPad mini offers the same excellent and high quality ux of the iPad then price shrinks quickly. Why pay less for a shitter experience? I mean tablets aren't a need, they're pure luxury so why waste your time and money?


 

As mentioned before, I'm a fan of Apple. Long term. My Apple history goes back to an Apple Mac IIe, and runs through various devices to my current crop of a macbook, a mac mini, an iPad3 and an iPhone 4. That's 30 years of fanboy, and includes the long lean stint where they were dead in the water for anyone other than graphic designers, and with Jobs at NeXT looking like even that market was going to be pulled from them. Anyone else here have an Apple Newton? Thought not.

I mention this only to forestall claims of bias, or not getting the Apple philosophy, or whatever, when I say that for anyone who's happy to do a bit of incredibly minor tweaking* the Android Jellybean user interface is as good as iOS. I can put my nexus side by side with my iPad3, and see no difference in speed of scrolling, software capability, integration with my other devices. In fact, the differences I do spot are weaknesses of the iPad. As mentioned before, I can bittorrent a series to my nexus in pretty much any format and watch it straight away. Thanks to USB OTG, I can plug in a usb disk and transfer files. The other day I had my Nexus plugged straight into my digital camera to transfer files straight across, pick the best ones and mail them off. There's all these irritating little restrictions on iOS that frankly annoy the crap out of me.

So let me turn around your question. Why pay more for an equivalent experience that has some significant limitations?

* and I mean install a handful of apps and tweak the desktop layout. Talking about 10 mins work here to put on a better keyboard, file explorer and media player. That's it.


----------



## Structaural (Nov 1, 2012)

How often do you use your iPad 3?


----------



## editor (Nov 1, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Most reviews I've read are dissapointed with screen resolution.
> 
> I'd wait for the Retina


Yep. And if the price is keen enough, _then_ it will be a five star product.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 1, 2012)

hehe Waiting for technology.  Good luck with that.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Nov 1, 2012)

Structaural said:


> How often do you use your iPad 3?


 
I'd say less than half of the time I used it for before getting the nexus.  The iPad was my default device for chucking in a bag if I was heading out, or shlomping on the sofa.  If I thought I might need to type a few emails or do some work I'd pair it with the excellent logitech thin keyboard case for light weight laptop substitute.  If I had proper work to do, I'd grab the laptop.

The Nexus has taken over as the default gadget.  The small form factor means I throw it in bag or pocket without thinking about it, and the better media support means I'm more likely to use it while shlomping, unless I'm reading up on something on the web.  The iPad still wins out for general web browsing (obviously 10" screen better than 7) or if I might need to write stuff up (did I mention the logitech keyboard is a great piece of kit?).


----------



## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

I've decided I'm going iPad 4 rather than mini.

I want the bigger screen, and I dont see the point in staying with old technology with the A5 and non retina, when there's a retina option and A6 processor out.......

it might have to wait a while though, I want to pick it up from a shop so I can pay half cash and half on card. Then Im going to spend the next year paying off my credit card bill before the 0% interest period runs out, as I've now made 3 purchases on it.


----------



## Firky (Nov 1, 2012)

Structaural said:


> He's highly biased. Like a Sun journalist at a Tory conference.
> 
> Notice how he knocks 9 quid of the iPad and adds 20 quid to the Kindle.
> 
> Can't anyone sit up straight anymore? This Jonny Ive cocked head look is very silly. What do their passport photos look like?



There's a massive double page spread to him in the local paper, it's more of an advert for Northumberia Uni than anything else with quotes from students saying they chose the uni cos Ives went there. Facepalm.jpg


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> I've decided I'm going iPad 4 rather than mini.
> 
> I want the bigger screen, and I dont see the point in staying with old technology with the A5 and non retina, when there's a retina option and A6 processor out.......


If I get a new iPad (which I will probably have to in the not too distant future) I will also be getting the full size rather than the mini. I often type on it a lot and fucked if I am typing on an 8" screen.

I had my old iPad 1 with me recently as the only device with net access, and I was able to do really quite a lot with it in terms of emergency work.


----------



## elbows (Nov 1, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> The iPad still wins out for general web browsing (obviously 10" screen better than 7) or if I might need to write stuff up (did I mention the logitech keyboard is a great piece of kit?).


 
Is that the logitech ultrathin one that acts as a case and has the magnets? I've just ordered one, since I've completely given up on windows 8 or android 10ish" tablets for now.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

If I were to get an iPad now it'd be the 4th gen, I need a semi laptop replacement with netbook mobility more than I need a super sized phone (in size). Interestingly my other half is more interested in the mini because her computer needs are different so smaller is preferable.


----------



## editor (Nov 1, 2012)

Well, you know which device fits that bill perfectly. My laptop hasn't been touched since I bought mine.


----------



## maldwyn (Nov 1, 2012)

My laptop is always my preferred machine no matter how often I use my iPad.


----------



## editor (Nov 1, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> My laptop is always my preferred machine no matter how often I use my iPad.


Once you get used to a laptop with a touchscreen, fiddling about with that itty-bitty trackpad thing sure seems a lot less fun.


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## tarannau (Nov 1, 2012)

There's no itty-bitty trackpad on my laptop, although I'll give you that the 'nipple' and small trackpad on my old work thinkpad was seriously inconvenient. I can't say that there's a huge gain using a touchscreen in most of my everyday tasks either = which is perhaps why I view a tablet as more of a luxury consumption device than a work tool. Touchscreen's got a way before it can match the precision and speed of keyboard shortcuts on database/spreadsheet applications for example.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2012)

I am fine without the touchscreen; it's better for browsing and reading, but for window management not, and the Air has an excellent touchpad that allows a lot of the gestures that are useful with touch.

But if I am going to have a touchscreen for general use I want one that I can type on reasonably comfortably, and where I can see quite a bit of the screen when the keyboard is up. I can do that with a 10" screen, at 60-70wpm. 8" or 7", I am very sceptical after having tried netbook keyboards.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> My laptop is always my preferred machine no matter how often I use my iPad.



Mine gets very little use these days unless I have to do some heavy photo editing or serious report writing, just find that for the majority of day to day use the iPad is the first thing I reach for. 

Even at work Its now a big part of my work flow. No more printing paper or calling people to my desk to look at things, I just walk over with the iPad and its all done mobile. It's proven a godsend for external meetings too, gone are the day of taking notes on paper, going back to the office, writing up then emailing a memo to colleagues and actions to those met with. Now all notes are taken on the iPad, typed up a little on the train which then are emailed automatically as I'm back with reception.


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## editor (Nov 1, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I am fine without the touchscreen; it's better for browsing and reading, but for window management not, and the Air has an excellent touchpad that allows a lot of the gestures that are useful with touch.
> 
> But if I am going to have a touchscreen for general use I want one that I can type on reasonably comfortably, and where I can see quite a bit of the screen when the keyboard is up. I can do that with a 10" screen, at 60-70wpm. 8" or 7", I am very sceptical after having tried netbook keyboards.


I had a netbook and soon realised it was pretty much rubbish. I'll be very surprised if you don't get the point of a touchscreen laptop if you ever get to have a go on one, though.

Eme went out and bought one after having a few goes on mine, that's how convinced she was.


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 1, 2012)

elbows said:


> Is that the logitech ultrathin one that acts as a case and has the magnets? I've just ordered one, since I've completely given up on windows 8 or android 10ish" tablets for now.



This one:

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc...itech-ultrathin-keyboard-cover-1090600/review

I can pretty much type as fast on it as on a full size laptop keyboard.  It's a great piece of kit.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

Verge review, largely favourable.


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## maldwyn (Nov 1, 2012)

Teardown


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

Funny seeing Amazon hastily pulling their ad after it turned out the iPad mini has stereo speakers.


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## Sunray (Nov 1, 2012)

Some of the design decisions are odd.  The connector being soldered must mean that Apple are very confident in the robustness of that connectors design or just going to replace the motherboard when it breaks.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 1, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Teardown


Oh god, how can anyone stand her voice and earthshattering enthusiasm for more than 5 consecutive seconds?


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 1, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Oh god, how can anyone stand her voice and earthshattering enthusiasm for more than 5 consecutive seconds?


 
It's a strange accent that.  Sort of east coast/west coast fusion.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 1, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> It's a strange accent that. Sort of east coast/west coast fusion.


And *so* enthusiastic!


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 1, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> And *so* enthusiastic!


 
Americans.  What are you going to do?


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## editor (Nov 2, 2012)

The Guardian is running an article showing a forest of high fives and self-applause as the iPad Mini launches.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2012/nov/02/apple-ipad-mini-video


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## Structaural (Nov 2, 2012)

What a surprise.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 2, 2012)

Shocking behaviour, never seen this happen at any previous Apple product launch...


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## maldwyn (Nov 2, 2012)

editor said:


> The Guardian is running an article showing a forest of high fives and self-applause as the iPad Mini launches.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2012/nov/02/apple-ipad-mini-video


They'd be in serious trouble if there wasn't queue.


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## hendo (Nov 2, 2012)

I can't see the point of an ipad mini for me personally as I already have an ipad. 
But in a few years, if I upgrade, and the mini has a retina screen plus whatever else they've done with it in the intervening period, then yes, it's possible.
There again, I do like the size of the ipad as it stands; the screen is inviting. Photos and text make a big impact on the full size device; newspapers and magazines might not translate as well to the smaller model and that's a dealbreaker for me.


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## freshnero (Nov 2, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> I'm an Android fan and I'm not sure this is true...I've just flashed my phone with a new ROM and left the HTC modified world of Android. I'm now dealing with the horrors of the stock messaging, contacts, email and even the dialler. Personally this doesn't bother me that much, but out the box? I can see why most companies skin android (I may well go back to sense, just because of the contacts integration), but in out the box being nice to use Apple have an edge,


 
I find the stock Android ugly and lacking in areas but Androids strength is how easy it is to skin and customize,I love the HTC rom and even the galaxy s2 rom adds slickness to android


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## freshnero (Nov 2, 2012)

editor said:


> If you're happy to use whatever comes with the device and have no interest in trying to find something that suits your needs better, nothing at all.
> 
> I tried doing that with the iPhone and it drove me mad, but it clearly suits zillions of people.


A fully customized android phone set up for the users needs, Widgets, Keyboards etc 
Which in fairness needs a little tech skill really blows iphone out of the water.
But iphone out of the box is probably going to suit more users needs 
But after spending an enjoyable few hours customizing my SII which was just playing with my new toy, Android is one of the most enjoyable and usable bits of kit I've ever used and i had a iphone for six months


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## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

Sounds like developers can indeed use code to detect whether the device is an ipad mini (as you would expect but I dont like the make assumptions) so they will be able to tweak things like the fontsize if required.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Sounds like developers can indeed use code to detect whether the device is an ipad mini (as you would expect but I dont like the make assumptions) so they will be able to tweak things like the fontsize if required.


Browsers like Atomic give you the ability to choose what you want your device to be identified as - iPad using safari, iPhone using safari, desktop, blah blah blah. So that certainly makes sense.


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## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Browsers like Atomic give you the ability to choose what you want your device to be identified as - iPad using safari, iPhone using safari, desktop, blah blah blah. So that certainly makes sense.


 
Thats a slightly different issue, I was talking about native apps rather than browser stuff, but yeah its all related. I havent checked to what extent the ipad mini can be identified in a browser, and it will probably be a long time before I find out for myself.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Browsers like Atomic give you the ability to choose what you want your device to be identified as - iPad using safari, iPhone using safari, desktop, blah blah blah. So that certainly makes sense.


I think he means for apps. One would quite possibly want to distinguish between 1024x768 on a 10" screen and it on an 8" screen and make the app behave differently.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 3, 2012)

Have to say this is a far better advert than that weird genius bar one they ran during the Olympics!


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## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

Whats with the advert obsession? You go on about this side of things so much that sometimes I even wonder if you are posting here as part of your job or something.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Whats with the advert obsession? You go on about this side of things so much that sometimes I even wonder if you are posting here as part of your job or something.


 
That's a very weird comment. How does a handful (one thread and two posts) count as an obsession? Not even sure what you're accusing me of with that odd job comment.

On the broader point, we discuss marketing, user experience, brand and anything associated with tech and tech companies all the time on here. Not sure we should stop now tbh...


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## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

I wasnt being that serious with the job comment. Its just that there is a slight smell of marketing in the subjects you touch a lot of the time, you start a lot of threads, you just posted that video in two different threads and it was the advert they showed at the launch event so I was surprised to see it coming up again now.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 3, 2012)

So?


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## editor (Nov 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> I wasnt being that serious with the job comment. Its just that there is a slight smell of marketing in the subjects you touch a lot of the time, you start a lot of threads, you just posted that video in two different threads and it was the advert they showed at the launch event so I was surprised to see it coming up again now.


Posting the same annoying ad twice does seem a bit excessive.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 3, 2012)

Oh I get this game so if I post again (twice excessive really??) it'll be hands thrown to the sky and shrieks about obsessive posting etc. You two are jokers!


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## editor (Nov 3, 2012)

You want to post the advert for a _third_ time?


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2012)

Adverts are pretty dull tbh. There's a reason I run adblockers.


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## Structaural (Nov 4, 2012)




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## elbows (Nov 4, 2012)

The fact that Apple seem to be promoting the ipad mini on their front page for the UK, as opposed to the new iPad on the main site, makes me wonder if they think the nexus 7 has been selling particularly well in the uk.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 4, 2012)

elbows said:


> The fact that Apple seem to be promoting the ipad mini on their front page for the UK, as opposed to the new iPad on the main site, makes me wonder if they think the nexus 7 has been selling particularly well in the uk.


Isn't the new iPad also *relatively* incremental, and a bit more political? Not really *that* new AND has pissed off a fair few people who bought a 3?

I reckon the Mini has better off-the-bat sales potential, and would benefit from more of an explanation.


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## maldwyn (Nov 4, 2012)

A6x chip shifts the retina pixels more smoothly, better face time camera along with the new adapter. If I were offered the 4 as a swap for my iPad3 I'd take it. 

iPad4 Teardown


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## elbows (Nov 4, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Isn't the new iPad also *relatively* incremental, and a bit more political? Not really *that* new AND has pissed off a fair few people who bought a 3?
> 
> I reckon the Mini has better off-the-bat sales potential, and would benefit from more of an explanation.


 
That doesnt explain why the new ipad is on the front of the main (US) site.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 4, 2012)

elbows said:


> That doesnt explain why the new ipad is on the front of the main (US) site.


Oh. Yes. Sorry  Missed that key distinction.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 5, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Not really *that* new AND has pissed off a fair few people who bought a 3?


 
This makes me smile about apple goods and some of their consumers. If you bought a new Dell laptop would you care or even notice that they'd brought out a slightly better model six months down the line. No. You'd just be using your still newish purchase and plan to for the next three years.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> This makes me smile about apple goods and some of their consumers. If you bought a new Dell laptop would you care or even notice that they'd brought out a slightly better model six months down the line. No. You'd just be using your still newish purchase and plan to for the next three years.


I'm rather enjoying how many of the Apple tech writers/bloggers - most of whom had mostly shown little interest in any type of mini-tablet apart from maybe to sneer at an Android model or two - are now gushing and exploding with love over how absolutely incredible/more useful/more portable the iPad Mini's form factor is.


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## maldwyn (Nov 5, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> This makes me smile about apple goods and some of their consumers. If you bought a new Dell laptop would you care or even notice that they'd brought out a slightly better model six months down the line. No. You'd just be using your still newish purchase and plan to for the next three years.


That's not how Apple worked as a company, they didn't release stuff for the sake of it - although they now seem to be drifting away from that ethos - stuff kind of evolved.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 5, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Isn't the new iPad also *relatively* incremental, and a bit more political? Not really *that* new AND has pissed off a fair few people who bought a 3?
> 
> I reckon the Mini has better off-the-bat sales potential, and would benefit from more of an explanation.


I'm one of those people that bought a 3 a week before the 4 came out. I'm mildly annoyed. I also got a Samsung Note 1 relatively recently and the 2 looks very nice. But then again thats tech for you, the minute you get it, it's out of date.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 5, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> This makes me smile about apple goods and some of their consumers. If you bought a new Dell laptop would you care or even notice that they'd brought out a slightly better model six months down the line. No. You'd just be using your still newish purchase and plan to for the next three years.


I think it's because so many people have figured out that Apple tech really keeps it's value, so you can flog the old one and upgrade to a shiny new thing on an annual basis without losing much money. Exactly what I did with my ipad 2, flog while it's still under warranty. This ipad 4 thing threw the spanner in the works of that one, didn't it?  I can't be bothered to sell again, I'll wait til the 5.


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

Something that's been bothering me. This picture:







Whose hands are these? Are Apple claiming that most people will be able to grip an iPad Mini like this?


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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

The mini is 134mm wide

*gets ruler*

A giant is holding that ipad mini


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 5, 2012)

Its the same concept as DFS recruiting pixies to model their sofas, except in reverse, obvs.


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

I have no access to an ipad mini to check, but I'm pretty sure I could hold the ipad mini like that, just about, but I'm not sure how comfortable it would be.

I can say that because I've got the nexus 7 and if I hold it in the same way I have loads of spare finger & thumb left. In fact just about all of my thumb is spare and can be held almost completely in front of the screen on the nexus 7, same with the top segment of most fingers.

I'm not a giant but if I stretch my digits out to the horizontal max then there is about 23cm between the very tip of my thumb and tip of my little finger. I assume this is not average.


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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

That's 3cm more than me


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## mack (Nov 5, 2012)

Had a play with the "mini" in an Apple store at the weekend, I have large hands (naan bread sized hands according to the missus!) and it was a real stretch to hold this in one hand like I hold my Nexus. A few others around the table were playing with it and there were other comments about how "big" it was.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2012)

The distance between my thumb and the tip of my forefinger is about 130mm, which might be just wide enough, but I definitely do have bigger hands than average, and that would not be comfortable for long periods.

On the other hand, thumb on the side and fingers supporting it from underneath would be fine. I think this is just to give the message "you can hold it easily in one hand".


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## Cid (Nov 5, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> I'm one of those people that bought a 3 a week before the 4 came out. I'm mildly annoyed. I also got a Samsung Note 1 relatively recently and the 2 looks very nice. But then again thats tech for you, the minute you get it, it's out of date.


 
You might actually be able to swap it still... Did so with mine last week. Think they say it's a two week limit, but there's some leeway. Think I'd had it 3 weeks or so.


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

Thanks for the hand comparison data. Maybe I should take up playing the piano, and I dont mean the ipad garageband piano used in the advert 

The alternative way of holding it that Fridgemagnet mentions should work fine, hell its only the weight that stops this being possible/desirable with the non-mini iPads. But I will say that the grip method that is well possible with the nexus 7 is quite a useful way to hold the device, so I will count this width issue as a slight negative of the ipad mini compared to the competition.


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The mini is 134mm wide
> 
> *gets ruler*
> 
> A giant is holding that ipad mini


That's what I mean. ASA beckons ...


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## Sunray (Nov 5, 2012)

Its not how I hold my smaller kindle so i doubt I'd be doing it with the mini.

I stand by my assertion that weight matters in this, if it was quite heavy,then holding it like that would be useful to support it, but as its appears light enough its not necessary.


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

It's highly misleading IMO.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

magneze said:


> It's highly misleading IMO.


It's strange that their advertising for the iPhone 5 was entirely focussed around its supposed wonderfully ergonomic shape, but then they release a tablet that is significantly harder to hold than some of the competition because of its extra width.


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

It cannot be held like that. I can't hold my Nexus like that and it's over 1cm smaller in width. I'm not a midget.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

magneze said:


> It cannot be held like that. I can't hold my Nexus like that and it's over 1cm smaller in width. I'm not a midget.


The Nexus is substantially slimmer.


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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

Based on those dimensions, I wouldn't be able to hold the N7 in the same way as in the photo of the mini. I just folded a piece of card and I can just about grip it properly between thumb and pinky. Ring finger visible, but not really gripping. Middle and index fingers behind the paper. My fingers don't even stick out the other side of a Mini-sized piece of card. But I don't think you need to hold these things like that for them to be stable. Just propping on the fingers and gripping with the thumb feels ok to me.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Based on those dimensions, I wouldn't be able to hold the N7 in the same way as in the photo of the mini. I just folded a piece of card and I can just about grip it properly between thumb and pinky. Ring finger visible, but not really gripping. Middle and index fingers behind the paper. My fingers don't even stick out the other side of a Mini-sized piece of card. But I don't think you need to hold these things like that for them to be stable. Just propping on the fingers and gripping with the thumb feels ok to me.


Really? The N7 sits easily enough in my hand and I certainly haven't got shovel sized hands. It would get tricky if it were any wider, mind.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2012)

Out of interest I googled for pictures of the Nexus 7, and pretty much all the real people holding it in use are doing so as I mentioned i.e. thumb on the side, fingers underneath but not all the way round. Except in some ad shots.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

I just put it to the test. It fits easily in my hand with some room to spare!



(I'm holding it at an awkward angle to photograph the thing, btw)


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

I hold my nexus 7 like editor does, but maybe thats because we can. Its hardly fatal to the experience if you cant.


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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

Looks similar to my hand, ed. But I challenge you to get all four fingers round the edge, as in the misleading Mini photo


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## Sunray (Nov 5, 2012)

I don't think its a natural way to hold any device of that width. Just tried with my Kindle which isn't as wide and I can't see my forefinger.

Compare to smaller devices like phones, your fingers are relaxed because the naturally curl around it, something even the width of the Kindle require the fingers to splay out, tensing muscles in the forearm. Think about straightening your finger so you have flat palm. This isn't a relaxed position and will tire muscles after a fairly short time, its also not comfortable.

Comfortable is inserting the corner into the palm and curling the fingers behind with the small finger holding it up. This is why the weight is so important, too heavy and the little finger is strained.

Actually I only need to use the little finger like that on my kindle so I can reach the page turn button. So too heavy and the corner will dig into the muscle fo the thumb.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Looks similar to my hand, ed. But I challenge you to get all four fingers round the edge, as in the misleading Mini photo


Challenge accepted and met! I think it would be impossible with the iPad Mini though.


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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

I must have small hands


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## maldwyn (Nov 5, 2012)




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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

Americans with their spade shovel-like hands


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## Sunray (Nov 5, 2012)

Actually, Its 10.7mm wider than my kindle, so while that guys got a massive forefinger, I reckon I could do the other three, just. But its a very weird way of holding it. Certainly not one you'd use to operate it.

Bourne out by a number of shot of people holding the mini in the above set of pics, the forefinger is missing, even in the keynote.


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

Am I a mutant?

Had a little bit of trouble holding it like I would normally and trying to take a photo, but anyways...


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

editor said:


> Really? The N7 sits easily enough in my hand and I certainly haven't got shovel sized hands. It would get tricky if it were any wider, mind.


I can grip the N7 in one hand, but my index finger doesn't poke around. I cannot see how this is at all possible on the Mini.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 5, 2012)

Is this really important in any way?


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## Crispy (Nov 5, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Is this really important in any way?


*every* way


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

It's misleading consumers on probably the most important aspect of the product - it's size.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 5, 2012)

You can hold it in one hand, but oh noes you can't hold it exactly as the picture shows!

Unless of course, you have big hands and can.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You can hold it in one hand, but oh noes you can't hold it exactly as the picture shows!
> 
> Unless of course, you have big hands and can.


You don't think it's just a teensy weensy bit misleading?


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## magneze (Nov 5, 2012)

I've complained to the ASA. Hate stuff like this. No need for it.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 5, 2012)

Cid said:


> You might actually be able to swap it still... Did so with mine last week. Think they say it's a two week limit, but there's some leeway. Think I'd had it 3 weeks or so.


You know what? I don't think I can be arsed. 
It's such a pain upgrading as we don't have a landline - got to wait til I'm at a relatives to get all the apps back from the cloud. Coz we're both using it constantly it's annoying to do without. I will flog it when the next proper upgrade comes round.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm actually tempted to go to an Apple Store and hold one and take a picture, now, such is my determination to procrastinate today.


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## maldwyn (Nov 5, 2012)

Perhaps a photo of something grasped that is 5.30" wide would suffice.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm actually tempted to go to an Apple Store and hold one and take a picture, now, such is my determination to procrastinate today.


I've already taken two photos of me holding a Nexus so I'm right there with you bro'.


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

Do it! I'd have to get a train if I wanted to do that, so it aint happening.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2012)

Okay, so I'm in the apple store in covent garden.



So it's possible, but that was stretching my hand to a painful degree. I wouldn't even like to carry it like that, let alone use it. Between thumb and ring finger was better, but tbh thumb and fingers underneath was the most natural.

It's much easier to type on than I thought. I could two-thumb in portrait which I could never do on the 10", and two-handed typing in landscape is pretty decent.


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

Cheers for doing that. Do you know that on ipads you can split the keyboard into two for thumb typing from either edge?

Its a little bit like the typing 'wheels' that microsoft tried with their doomed UMPC tablets years ago. Im not sure this is microsofts own variant, but this is the sort of thing I meant:


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2012)

Yeah, but I didn't think much of it. Iirc I also found it much too easy to accidentally turn on and off, so I disabled it.


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## elbows (Nov 5, 2012)

Yeah I know what you mean, my main problem with it was that it made the keys a bit too small. I cant actually remember how to turn it off!


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## editor (Nov 5, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's much easier to type on than I thought. I could two-thumb in portrait which I could never do on the 10", and two-handed typing in landscape is pretty decent.


Love the fact you could be arsed to go!

I've said from the start that typing on a smaller tablet is actually better than on a larger one in some aspects. The Nexus will always outperform the iPad Mini in this category too because of the wonders of SwiftKey, which does a fabulous tablet optimised keyboard.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 5, 2012)

magneze said:


> Something that's been bothering me. This picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I could easily hold it like that.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 5, 2012)

maldwyn said:


>


 
I've seen some truly bizarre Fandroid criticism of Apple products on urban but this is some next level.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2012)

editor said:


> Love the fact you could be arsed to go!


That's easily the most productive thing I've accomplished all day, apart from sending an invoice.

Beforehand I was sitting in a trendy coffee bar in That East End and I was disappointed to see that there were no iPad minis at all  Broken Britain if you ask me.


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## Zabo (Nov 5, 2012)




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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 5, 2012)

LOL!


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## Structaural (Nov 5, 2012)

Hahahaha!


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## Cid (Nov 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I could easily hold it like that.


 
Same, was in the store today getting the 4th gen iPad (as mentioned earlier got a refund on the 3rd) and had a play with it... I probably wouldn't mind you. But that would apply to any device of the same size. Don't even hold my phone like that as it has poor home button access - perhaps if showing a video to someone. I have medium hands and would say it could become uncomfortable after 5 minutes or so. Apple stores are a weird experience. Although credit to the Brent Cross staff for being polite and friendly but not effusively so. Cordial would, I think, be a good description for our communications.


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## editor (Nov 7, 2012)

Here's pretty much the definitive comparison of the screens of the iPad Mini/Nexus 7 and Fire HD.


> While screen Resolution gets lots of attention from both consumers and marketers – it’s really only critical for providing visually sharp text – but that applies for most applications running on a Tablet. The $199 Amazon Kindle Fire HD and Google Nexus 7 both have considerably sharper displays with 216 Pixels Per Inch, and they both delivered considerably sharper text.


http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_mini_ShootOut_1.htm


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## Citizen66 (Nov 7, 2012)

They have them in the Apple store?  I went into currys, who had sold out, so ordered online from Apple and now have to wait 2 weeks until dispatch.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 7, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> They have them in the Apple store?  I went into currys, who had sold out, so ordered online from Apple and now have to wait 2 weeks until dispatch.


Buy it in an apple store. Cancel your online order. 

I've done that in the past, though you do need enough of a buffer in your account for the refund to take a week to process...


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 7, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Buy it in an apple store. Cancel your online order.
> 
> I've done that in the past, though you do need enough of a buffer in your account for the refund to take a week to process...


 
It's for a Christmas present so as long as it's there in time for Christmas...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Nov 7, 2012)

editor said:


> Posting the same annoying ad twice does seem a bit excessive.


yeah I mean if some nutter came on here and continually posted about how their products and stores had massive ques outside them at every product launch linking to several different sites all with different branded 'viral' advertisements for the products pretending to be 'reporting' the high fiveres and their 'sad antics' then you'd say hang on chief why all this continuous promotion for a global mega corp stop spamming us to death with your constant 'ironic' claims of being tired of their marketing machine when they're being part of it by continually posting them on popular advert free bulletin boards and tech blogs... 

I mean what kind of conceited dick would do that?

it'd be laughable and really craven too...


----------



## editor (Nov 7, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> yeah I mean if some nutter came on here and continually posted about how their products and stores had massive ques outside them at every product launch linking to several different sites all with different branded 'viral' advertisements for the products pretending to be 'reporting' the high fiveres and their 'sad antics' then you'd say hang on chief why all this continuous promotion for a global mega corp stop spamming us to death with your constant 'ironic' claims of being tired of their marketing machine when they're being part of it by continually posting them on popular advert free bulletin boards and tech blogs...
> 
> I mean what kind of conceited dick would do that?
> 
> it'd be laughable and really craven too...


Quickly! Have a sit down and a jolly nice cup of tea before you explode with misdirected random rage all over urban again.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Nov 7, 2012)

editor said:


> Quickly! Have a sit down and a jolly nice cup of tea before you explode with misdirected random rage all over urban again.


why the off topic personal attack AGAIN????

but if the cap fits...


----------



## Firky (Nov 7, 2012)

editor said:


> Here's pretty much the definitive comparison of the screens of the iPad Mini/Nexus 7 and Fire HD.
> 
> http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_mini_ShootOut_1.htm



There's a massive difference between my ipad (first gen) and my N7. Mainly noticeable when reading large bodies of text.


----------



## maldwyn (Nov 7, 2012)




----------



## Firky (Nov 7, 2012)

I didn't know tablets could fly on their own accord?


----------



## editor (Nov 7, 2012)

I love that ad


----------



## Structaural (Nov 8, 2012)

Made me laugh.
Kind of funny too as the iPad has more music creation apps than any other platform. That don't lag.


----------



## Kanda (Nov 8, 2012)

This is my boss holding his iPad3... !! Not a Mini! Shovel Hands!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 9, 2012)

Kanda said:


> This is my boss holding his iPad3... !! Not a Mini! Shovel Hands!


 
Heh I can hold my iPad 3 just as well like that.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 9, 2012)

Mutants.


----------



## elbows (Nov 9, 2012)

I can nearly hold the ipad 2 & 3 in that way, although one of my fingers cant bend round it to the extent shown in that photo. I had never thought to try before. Surprisingly not that uncomfortable either, suggesting that if I were ever to have an ipad mini it wouldnt be a problem.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> I can nearly hold the ipad 2 & 3 in that way, although one of my fingers cant bend round it to the extent shown in that photo. I had never thought to try before. Surprisingly not that uncomfortable either, suggesting that if I were ever to have an ipad mini it wouldnt be a problem.


 
Indeed.


----------



## elbows (Nov 9, 2012)

Just be completely clear, Im not trying to suggest that the world is filled with people who share my hand span, so I'm not suggesting that apple photo is fair.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 9, 2012)

With alarming precision, Apple shipped my iPad mini this morning.

They said 2 weeks and its 2 weeks pretty much to the minute from when I ordered it.


----------



## jannerboyuk (Nov 9, 2012)

Can't buy this in cardiff for love or money at the mo! played with display model in the Apple store and very nice i must say - just a choice between this or an ipad2 for my xmans pressie to myself!


----------



## maldwyn (Nov 9, 2012)

> And if that wasn’t stupid enough, they also recorded themselves doing it for a video that explains “why you don’t buy an iPad from Walmart.”
> Read more at http://www.cultofmac.com/200600/walmart-employees-caught-on-tape-torturing-ipads-video/#FxZRODzD7Oq1XzfL.99


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2012)

I used to have a factory job with really awful bosses and occasionally I would find myself accidentally knocking over fragile objects in the warehouse.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 9, 2012)

elbows said:


> Just be completely clear, Im not trying to suggest that the world is filled with people who share my hand span, so I'm not suggesting that apple photo is fair.


 
Heh no one but a fool would think you're suggesting any of that.


----------



## hendo (Nov 10, 2012)

Gozmodo says wait, and I agree with their reviewer.


----------



## mrs quoad (Nov 10, 2012)

hendo said:


> Gozmodo says wait, and I agree with their reviewer.


"Full disclosure: I bought a Kindle Fire HD and an iPad mini for this review, and borrowed a friend's Nexus 7. My original thought was that I'd just keep which ever one I liked best. I'm returning all of them today."

Think that's where I'd find myself, too. Good review, IMO.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Nov 11, 2012)

I think where the ipad mini will make it's mark is being used as the screen console for on board systems in cars and other transport.  I've tried using tomtom on my ipad as it's an obvious use of it but it's too damn big to use practically instead of a dedicated satnav.

not just in terms of screen size etc but in terms of it takes up the entire centre console which means you lose things like heater controls, hazard light switch the fag lighter and all of that it's just too damn big to use in that way...

a mini would be perfect...

but then they already make these things call iphones which are a bit small for the job but about as big as a dedicated sat nav unit so fine...

so why'd I buy one...

however if I bought a new car with one in I'd use it...

I can see these being used in many custom car builds in the next 18 months...


----------



## Sunray (Nov 11, 2012)

Clearly it would need a GPS enable version of the mini.

I really don't see how a bigger screen add a great deal to a sat nav, esp when driving?  iPhone in portrait displays more information than I need for a casual glance.  The spoken directions is the important bit.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 11, 2012)

I use mine on silent.


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> I think where the ipad mini will make it's mark is being used as the screen console for on board systems in cars and other transport. I've tried using tomtom on my ipad as it's an obvious use of it but it's too damn big to use practically instead of a dedicated satnav.


It has no GPS so would be utterly useless as a satnav.


----------



## mrs quoad (Nov 11, 2012)

editor said:


> It has no GPS so would be utterly useless as a satnav.


The 3G doesn't have GPS?


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> The 3G doesn't have GPS?


The wi-fi version doesn't have GPS as well you know. The 3G version does but it's cripplingly expensive if it's being bought as a satnav, being priced up to £529 plus monthly data charges.


----------



## mrs quoad (Nov 11, 2012)

editor said:


> The wi-fi version doesn't have GPS as well you know. The 3G version does


Ok.

I was wondering if you'd picked up on a recent announcement / whatever about a lack of GPS on the 3G. Or if you were just referring to the wifi only version. 

Ty for the clarification. I'm sure you wouldn't want to post owt that could be "up to" 50% misleading!


----------



## Sunray (Nov 12, 2012)

Had my first look at a mini today and I like it. The weight of the device allows for the very thin edge, your thumb isn't required to hold it like it is with the iPad, my biggest complaint.

Looks nice, weights really in the 'light' category, makes it a genuinely portable device, iPad's are just too heavy for me to use comfortably.

Screen is fine, perhaps for the price it could be a little better but its not like its totally rubbish, its clear and legible and its certainly not the deal breaker that's its been made out to be.

The library of stuff on iTunes for these devices is truly immense now. This is a really nice device to consume that content, my iPhone is too small.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

Had a proper play with one on the weekend, boy oh boy are the reviews shrieks about the screen WAY off! It's nowhere near as bad as they made out, managed to hold it in one hand with no problem, very conformable. The thing is as shockingly light as the iPhone 5. Very nice form factor, feels like a quality build too.

Performance is where its a visible let down to me, didn't feel quite as snappy as I'm used to with my iPad 3. Interestingly my other half couldn't tell that however (she even tested it live against her iPhone 4S saying she could see any speed difference), nor did the screen cause any issue for her. Her first words about it were telling:

"This makes more sense. Why didn't they just make the iPad like this in the first place?"

That's her Chrismass pressie sorted. 

Oh yeah had a good old play with the Nexus7, not wanting to derail this thread into the usual boring shite so I'll simply say this: you get what you pay for.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 14, 2012)

I was wondering why it was taking so long to deliver this tablet so I tracked it and discover  it was dispatched from Shanghai. 

Should have bought it from an Apple shop.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2012)

KE doesn't want to 'derail this thread into the usual boring shite' thread but he thought he'd still go out of his way to slag off an Android product anyway.  Ho hum.


----------



## pesh (Nov 14, 2012)

editor said:


> KE doesn't want to 'derail this thread into the usual boring shite' thread but he thought he'd still go out of his way to slag off an Android product anyway. Ho hum.


 
indeed. childish and uncalled for.

he should follow your example, 'if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.'


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 14, 2012)

pesh said:


> indeed. childish and uncalled for.
> 
> he should follow your example, 'if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.'


 
LOL yeah great example.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 15, 2012)

Loving this device. It's slick and light and the ipad specific apps I've been sampling are excellent. 

I've only really noticed iTunesU which is also excellent.  Some interesting lectures to spend time on.  The phone wasn't big enough to pay attention to what was on there. That's all free so must be available elsewhere.


----------



## Firky (Nov 15, 2012)

Sunray said:


> Loving this device. It's slick and light and the ipad specific apps I've been sampling are excellent.
> 
> I've only really noticed iTunesU which is also excellent. Some interesting lectures to spend time on. The phone wasn't big enough to pay attention to what was on there. That's all free so must be available elsewhere.


 
What's iTunesU?


----------



## Sunray (Nov 15, 2012)

It's  an Apple app that has all these university lectures from MIT, the Open University and other distinguished places of learning where they have put all their material online. iTunesu gives it all really nice front end. 

The quality of some stuff is amazing.


----------



## Cid (Nov 16, 2012)

iTunesU is brilliant... Quality of recordings can be variable, but there's some truly great content. You can access it off normal iTunes, think audio can be .m4a or .mp3 (usually mp3), and video mpeg-4, m4v, mov so you can presumably just download on a desktop and stick it on a non-apple device.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 16, 2012)

I got taken in by the 803 class on waves and motion at MIT last night.  Made we want to focus on my maths.  The the lecturer is amazing.


----------



## Structaural (Nov 16, 2012)

I happened to walk past an Apple store today, so I popped in to take a look at the new ipad mini....
Okay - that's the closest I've come to getting a 'pad'. It is rather little and light.

I'd better avoid stores like that...


----------



## maldwyn (Nov 16, 2012)

I had one all day tuesday and rather liked it but still prefer my 3.

I'll seriously consider buying one when it goes retina.


----------



## Structaural (Nov 16, 2012)

I wanted a 32GB one but I'm not paying 100euros for 16GB extra. That ultimately stopped me from buying it. Good job really...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 16, 2012)

Sunray said:


> It's an Apple app that has all these university lectures from MIT, the Open University and other distinguished places of learning where they have put all their material online. iTunesu gives it all really nice front end.
> 
> The quality of some stuff is amazing.


 
Yup, very impressive that. Some very big universities have their courses for free on it too.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 16, 2012)

Tip: Don't update your ipad at the same time as the pc your updating it from. I did and it stacked the ipad. 

Had to factory restore.


----------



## Firky (Nov 16, 2012)

May have to investigate this iTunesU


----------



## Sunray (Nov 17, 2012)

firky said:


> May have to investigate this iTunesU



Take a look at the 803 MIT lecture on waves and motion. At the start the guy has this coin thing that has to be seen. Demonstrates how circular velocity goes down as angular velocity goes up. 

Been getting annoyed with safari and urban on the mini. The keyboard often obscures the quick post. Switched to chrome which I think is a bit faster for urban. Solved the problem.

The other thing that's annoying me is on my iPhone the back and forward buttons on the browser are at the bottom of the screen but on the iPad mini they are at the top,  My thumbs don't reach that far.  This is true for both Safari and chrome. No obvious gesture either.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 24, 2012)

Tip: if you connect youripad to your iPhone and use the maps, the iPhone adds its gps info to the data stream and your maps app knows where you are. Not sure if this works with other sat nav applications.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 24, 2012)

Sunray said:


> I was wondering why it was taking so long to deliver this tablet so I tracked it and discover  it was dispatched from Shanghai.
> 
> Should have bought it from an Apple shop.



The one I ordered tried to arrive today almost three weeks later but my gf was out. 

I thought the Apple store would have sold out. Oh well. Nice to have the option for engraving though i suppose.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 24, 2012)

editor said:


> KE doesn't want to 'derail this thread into the usual boring shite' thread but he thought he'd still go out of his way to slag off an Android product anyway.  Ho hum.



Christ almighty. You'd think you designed the Nexus the way you go on.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Christ almighty. You'd think you designed the Nexus the way you go on.


That doesn't even make any sense, but congrats on giving the pot another pointless stir, a whole ten days later. Great work!


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 24, 2012)

I haven't stirred anything. It just looks a bit odd for a grown man to throw his toys out of the pram over disrespect shown to a _product_.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I haven't stirred anything. It just looks a bit odd for a grown man to throw his toys out of the pram over disrespect shown to a _product_.


Wow. You're still going?

<yawn>


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 24, 2012)

It's like having a conversation with a petulant kid. 

Oh well, crack on then if that's your thing.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 24, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Christ almighty. You'd think you designed the Nexus the way you go on.


 
Innit, he's proper stalinist about it, you make one genuine comment that no one jumps on and like fly on shit he's there jumping on it claiming about derail! Amazing how things never change...


----------



## mrs quoad (Nov 24, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Innit, he's proper stalinist about it, you make one genuine comment that no one jumps on and like fly on shit he's there jumping on it claiming about derail! Amazing how things never change...


"All I did was string a juicy worm on a hook, and would you believe it, the fish just keep on biting?! It's *a*m*a*z*i*n*g*. I really don't know why it happens! Stupid fish."

ffs


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> "All I did was string a juicy worm on a hook, and would you believe it, the fish just keep on biting?! It's *a*m*a*z*i*n*g*. I really don't know why it happens! Stupid fish."
> 
> ffs


 
Lol not at all, I tried out the mini and 7 back to back, this is a thread about the mini which got the main of the comment but it'd be remiss of me to not mention my experience as context. I left it as a short line because it wasn't posted to derail this thread. The ed jumped on it because he has a stalinist intolerance of any bad word of his beloved Google. Simples.


----------



## Kanda (Nov 25, 2012)

editor said:


> KE doesn't want to 'derail this thread into the usual boring shite' thread but he thought he'd still go out of his way to slag off an Android product anyway. Ho hum.


 
Geezus, really! That's outstanding, even from you!


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Geezus, really! That's outstanding, even from you!


Yes! Join in! Who cares if it's a forgotten post from over two weeks ago and you've failed to even comprehend the context. Fantastic!


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The ed jumped on it because he has a stalinist intolerance of any bad word of his beloved Google. Simples.


*edited because I'm not going to sink to his dazzling levels of rudeness, ignorance and stupidity. I strongly suggest KE looks up what Stalinism actually _is_ before ever repeating the word.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 25, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Geezus, really! That's outstanding, even from you!


 
You'd think a grown man in his 50s would have more self control.


----------



## mrs quoad (Nov 25, 2012)

Daggers: *surprisingly* good for polishing halos.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 25, 2012)

Mate, you really saying that no one can post anything slightly critical for fear that some trolling idiot is going to fly off the handle? You really think that's a good way of behaving on a message board?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 25, 2012)

The crazy thing is, iirc KE - like me - has both Apple AND Android devices. Like I have an Android phone and Apple tablet.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 25, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> The crazy thing is, iirc KE - like me - has both Apple AND Android devices. Like I have an Android phone and Apple tablet.


 
I have a Windows 7 laptop and a Xbox 360 too. It's a bullshit characterisation that gets flung about on there about people that have Apple products...


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 25, 2012)

Yeah, I have Windows PC and Xbox too.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 25, 2012)

Anyway...too much energy gets spent on this crap on here...on with the thread!


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You'd think a grown man in his 50s would have more self control.


This tells me all I need to know about you. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself. Don't ever mention me in your unpleasant posts again please.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 1, 2012)

iPad mini sales are still at two weeks by the look of it, anyone considering getting one for a loved one (I'm mulling that right now) probably should get a move one if they're xmas pressies!


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 1, 2012)

I ordered online, had a two week wait and then it took another week to deliver it because the cover and ipad were coming from two different places or something.


----------



## maldwyn (Dec 1, 2012)

Still going wait for the retina version.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 1, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Still going wait for the retina version.


 
If I were buying for myself I'd be waiting for a faster CPU...but the person I have in mind thinks the mini is great as it is.


----------



## Sunray (Dec 3, 2012)

The mini is fine. I can't see the need to wait for something that might never exist and has weight issues.

Anand sees things exactly the way I do.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6429/ipad-mini-review


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 3, 2012)

Sunray said:


> The mini is fine. I can't see the need to wait for something that might never exist and has weight issues.
> 
> Anand sees things exactly the way I do.
> 
> http://www.anandtech.com/show/6429/ipad-mini-review


 
Heh yeah well people were saying there'd not be a mini so with all due respect I'll continue to bet on their being a retina mini with a better cpu!


----------



## Structaural (Dec 4, 2012)

Sunray said:


> The mini is fine. I can't see the need to wait for something that might never exist and has weight issues.
> 
> Anand sees things exactly the way I do.
> 
> http://www.anandtech.com/show/6429/ipad-mini-review


 
He does moan quite a bit about the lack of retina though. The form trumps it for him.


----------



## Sunray (Dec 5, 2012)

He doesn't moan about it he just point out the practical,issues. 

Personally this is the best device I've ever owned bar me 1ss iPhone.  It's cool as fuck. It's the perfect weight and size. There are flaws but I own this. I'm using it right now to type this.   You out and get your retina ipad , I'll be here with my worn out mini playing the room 7.


----------



## editor (Dec 5, 2012)

Sunray said:


> He doesn't moan about it he just point out the practical,issues.
> 
> Personally this is the best device I've ever owned bar me 1ss iPhone. It's cool as fuck. It's the perfect weight and size. There are flaws but I own this. I'm using it right now to type this. You out and get your retina ipad , I'll be here with my worn out mini playing the room 7.


Sounds like the keyboard needs a bit of work


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 5, 2012)

Sunray said:


> He doesn't moan about it he just point out the practical,issues.
> 
> Personally this is the best device I've ever owned bar me 1ss iPhone. It's cool as fuck. It's the perfect weight and size. There are flaws but I own this. I'm using it right now to type this. You out and get your retina ipad , I'll be here with my worn out mini playing the room 7.


 
It's a very nice little machine, well worth the money given the UX.


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 18, 2012)

I've just had a 'wrap up your Christmas shopping' email from Apple.







MBP... iPad... iPhone... iPod...

No Mini?!

Interesting decision, IMO!


----------



## magneze (Dec 18, 2012)

Is it? You need to get out more.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 18, 2012)

The mini is their second lowest selling product after the pro, IIRC.


----------



## sim667 (Dec 18, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I've just had a 'wrap up your Christmas shopping' email from Apple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
There's still a waiting list for minis....... if you cant provide them in time for xmas, they wont advertise them as being available for xmas.


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 18, 2012)

sim667 said:


> There's still a waiting list for minis....... if you cant provide them in time for xmas, they wont advertise them as being available for xmas.


Ah


----------



## Sunray (Dec 18, 2012)

To get a mini you need to queue, in true fanbois style, outside an Apple shop before they open and hope they get a delivery.

About 40 people a day do at the Covent Garden one according to one of the staff there.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 18, 2012)

So I was right to order online then.


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2012)

Sunray said:


> To get a mini you need to queue, in true fanbois style, outside an Apple shop before they open and hope they get a delivery.
> 
> About 40 people a day do at the Covent Garden one according to one of the staff there.


Hey! That sounds like fun!


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 18, 2012)

I was on the ball for about the first time in my life and ordered at the start of last month. Took almost three weeks to deliver. Anyone wanting one now in time for christmas have themselves to blame really.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 18, 2012)

iPad mini is selling far too well to just walk in and pick up in store, Apple massively misjudged demand when they put their initial order in or 6 million units and had to double that. I expect supply will open up marginally by the new year...


----------



## elbows (Dec 18, 2012)

I dont know as they misjudged it as opposed to the general approach of not caring too much about supply failing to meet demand in the first x months after a product launches.


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 19, 2012)

Well. Just got a PC world email through. They're stating (at online checkout) that a 64gb wifi only mini can be ordered & collected within 1hr. 

Their website might be balls, tho. And fully appreciated the 64gbs are hardly likely to be the most popular.


----------



## Sunray (Dec 22, 2012)

It's 429 and I dont see the need of more than 16Gb unless you have lots mp3's or want to have a large bank of videos you want to watch while travelling. 

Sat Nav is a big app, esp the pan European map ones. But a phone is a better solution IMO, the mini is for the net in bed.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 22, 2012)

been setting one up today. think the physical size is more appealing than the full size one.


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 23, 2012)

Sunray said:


> It's 429 and I dont see the need of more than 16Gb unless you have lots mp3's or want to have a large bank of videos you want to watch while travelling.


Anyone with an unhealthy interest in gaming might disagree!

I'm at constant warfare with my 32gb iPhone's internal memory, and that's with >3gb of media (c.1gb music, up to 2gb for a stock film or TV).


----------



## Sunray (Dec 23, 2012)

You can really only play a few games at the same time. 





Citizen66 said:


> been setting one up today. think the physical size is more appealing than the full size one.



This primary reason I own one, using it far more than I'd expected. Thought it was going to be an expensive toy that got discarded. But can't resist surfing the net in bed. 

I can't stop thinking about the people in the film wall-e, is the ipad the beginning?


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 24, 2012)

Sunray said:


> You can really only play a few games at the same time.


??

I'm part way through *just about* every game on my iPhone. And there's easily 25gb of em. Completed games get deleted! 

Some are, perhaps, malingerers. And some are waiting for content updates. But there's nowt on there that I could delete without torment.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 1, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> I've just had a 'wrap up your Christmas shopping' email from Apple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Its a macbook air, not a MBP.

</pedant>


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 7, 2013)

LOL!


----------



## Sunray (Nov 14, 2013)

Well, here were are 11 months later and the retina is out and not facing the supply shortages they said would happen.  Lots of people have taken it to heart so fully they are selling over priced ones on ebay when they are still on sale in the shop.

Pricy but this as its now a smaller iPad Air and not a miniaturised ipad 2, I bought it.

To me its worth the upgrade and i am at a bit of a loss to understand why people would buy and Air, still too big and bulky.

Going to stick the old one on ebay to cut the cost.


----------



## elbows (Nov 14, 2013)

Sunray said:


> To me its worth the upgrade and i am at a bit of a loss to understand why people would buy and Air, still too big and bulky.



Because they want a larger screen. The weight of the air is also apparently a lot more suitable than previous iPads.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 15, 2013)

The mini is an amazing device form factor was but I need screen real estate for my job so the Air it is...


----------



## sim667 (Nov 15, 2013)

Im really starting to wish I had the mini instead of my iPad 4...... I'd take it out a lot


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunray said:


> i am at a bit of a loss to understand why people would buy and Air, still too big and bulky.


The mini screen is too small for the stuff I use an iPad for, simple as that.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 15, 2013)

its got an identical screen to the ipad and displays the same identical information on a screen that's only 2in smaller?  I don't see how the extra screen size helps in any way?

1-3 business days? My arse. Shipped bulk from China.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2013)

Any app which uses a lot of controls benefits from any increase in screen size, and the Air has 1/3 greater screen area. The Mini is surprisingly good for typing though.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunray said:


> its got an identical screen to the ipad and displays the same identical information on a screen that's only 2in smaller?  I don't see how the extra screen size helps in any way?
> 
> 1-3 business days? My arse. Shipped bulk from China.


Try mixing a show from a mini then come back and say that again...


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 16, 2013)

I'm seeing a great deal of very positive reviews for the mini, I prefer that form factor (it's *just* right) but I need more screen given my job so my next iPad will be the Air...


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## Sunray (Nov 17, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Try mixing a show from a mini then come back and say that again...



I see that as a failing of the software you're using not of the form factor of the device it's running on.


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## Crispy (Nov 17, 2013)

Sunray said:


> I see that as a failing of the software you're using not of the form factor of the device it's running on.


That's a ridiculous argument!


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 17, 2013)

The fact that it's easier to use Blender on a 27" iMac than an 11" MacBook Air clearly means that Blender is at fault  I should be able to use anything I want on an iWatch tbh.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 17, 2013)

Sunray said:


> I see that as a failing of the software you're using not of the form factor of the device it's running on.


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## Sunray (Nov 17, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The fact that it's easier to use Blender on a 27" iMac than an 11" MacBook Air clearly means that Blender is at fault  I should be able to use anything I want on an iWatch tbh.



A 27inch Mac has 4 times the pixels than an 11" Air, differs by 16" and also has tons more processing power.

The iPad are iPad air are identical and differ by just 2 inches.   

Are you genuinely telling me that the UI can't be changed so that its  better on different screen sizes?


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 17, 2013)

Sunray said:


> A 27inch Mac has 4 times the pixels than an 11" Air, differs by 16" and also has tons more processing power.
> 
> The iPad are iPad air are identical and differ by just 2 inches.
> 
> Are you genuinely telling me that the UI can't be changed so that its  better on different screen sizes?


It is not a software flaw if an application is less usable with a smaller screen. If something suddenly becomes unusable on a Mjni then that might be (I think it would get rejected from the Apple Store anyway) but sometimes stuff just benefits from more screen space. Otherwise there'd be phone versions of all of this too.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 17, 2013)

Sunray said:


> A 27inch Mac has 4 times the pixels than an 11" Air, differs by 16" and also has tons more processing power.
> 
> The iPad are iPad air are identical and differ by just 2 inches.
> 
> Are you genuinely telling me that the UI can't be changed so that its  better on different screen sizes?


Not really, the stuff I use for work is basically mimicking the surface of a mixing console, stuff has to be a useable size.


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## elbows (Nov 17, 2013)

Certainly some music-making apps could do a lot more to take account of the mini screen size, and are guilty of not really paying enough attention to this issue. All the same, the comments from people here are very reasonable, especially pointing out just what a difference to total screen area those 'few inches' make.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 17, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The fact that it's easier to use Blender on a 27" iMac than an 11" MacBook Air clearly means that Blender is at fault  I should be able to use anything I want on an iWatch tbh.



Yeah those bastards!


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## Sunray (Nov 18, 2013)

It arrived today, all the way from China.

New power supply, back to the little block with interchangeable plug, still USB.

Its a bit heavier, but only noticeable if you have them in each hand.  

The big ticket is the screen, compare the two and the old Mini now looks like I've given it a light coating of grease.  The second is the speed, this is considerably faster. 

It so much better a device, I am wondering if they were unsure it would be a success and made the old one to be something they could 1st discount then discontinue if it didn't match expectations.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 23, 2013)

How thicker is it compared to iPad mini 1?


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## mrs quoad (Nov 27, 2013)

I bought a high capacity 3G retina mini last week.

I like it. Quite a lot.

But it doesn't feel at all revolutionary. It feels more like a perfectly competent device.

When I bought my iPad 2, it felt like an exciting opening up of new possibilities. New ways of working. New places to work. New things I could do.

When I bought my iMac, it felt like a total fucking relief to have a computer that did what I asked it to, and which didn't crash. And when I bought my MBP, it felt like I'd gained an astounding portable (!) workhorse with *seven hours* (!) of real-world battery time. Which was hyper-responsive. And didn't crash. (And which can still play decent games, and display them, in decent resolution on our HD TV!!!!)

(There was a rapidly-returned MacBook Air in there, too, which was quite some way from impressing me )

The retina just feels like a very competent device. No troubles. No hiccups. Very responsive. But, basically, another iteration of a fast tablet. I used to feel quite similar about new windows machines, until they started BSODing two weeks later (and, usually, found that whatever I'd bought couldn't run fuck all in the way of games anyhows!)

I think I've learnt that retina screens are not particularly important to me. And that, perhaps, it'll be a while before anything leaves me thinking "duck me, this is incredible" in the same way the iPad 2 did. I enjoyed putting a keynote presentation together this morning, using extensive screenshotting, photo editing, blah. I really enjoy using it as a book, a gaming platform, and a work device. And I've loaded 40gb of films and series for next time I'm away.

But I can't imagine what would leave me feeling any compulsion to upgrade. I was still happy with my iPad 2 when it got nicked, apart from its size. It could still run 99.9% of new apps. Unless a slew of new games / apps come out that can't run on the retina mini, I just can't see what the next piece of non-incremental excitement might be. There certainly wasn't one in the N years since the iPad 2; this, IMO, feels similar.


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