# EDL reveal anti-trades union agenda



## Barry Kade (Mar 30, 2010)

The EDL have tried to pretend that they are narrowly focussed on opposing 'militant Islam'. However, their latest public statement proclaims the 'communist' trades unions of Britain to be the enemy as well. 

Blogged about it here:
http://barrykade.wordpress.com/2010...nd-embark-on-anti-union-red-baiting-witchunt/

Just to add to what I have written on the blog - the EDL end their article by speaking of the need to 'protect our nation from both communism and Islamism'. 

By 'communists' these muppets actually mean the leaders of 'Unite'! They would have us believe that Labour is in the grip of militant communists - yeah the same Labour party that shits on the unions and the working class in the name of big business! 







The EDL can pick a fight with us if they like. There are seven million trades unionists in Britain. While they are trying to fight us maybe they will not have the time to bully Muslim girls on trains? 






*http://barrykade.wordpress.com*


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## ernestolynch (Mar 30, 2010)

Who will stand up and say fuck off to fascism AND islam?


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## Barry Kade (Mar 30, 2010)

Yeah, I don't want a British nationalist fascist dictatorship, and I don't want an Islamicist dictatorship either! 

I hope neither have a snowballs chance in hell of coming about.

But i doubt if an ethnic minority of 2.7 % is about to impose an Islamicist dictatorship on Britain - even if they wanted to. (And most Muslims aren't islamicists).

I hope the British or English national fascists get nowhere as well. But as they base themselves on pretending to speak for the 'white' majority or whatever, they unfortunately have more chance of getting their way in Britain than their Islamicist counterparts. 

While both obnoxious, these couple of bastard oppressor ideologies don't pose a symmetrical threat.


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## ernestolynch (Mar 30, 2010)

But on your blog
You sound like you support mohammedanism. This tars proper commies
With the liberal brush.


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## Barry Kade (Mar 30, 2010)

quotations? Maybe you see something i don't. Maybe your a bit paranoid, on the look out for 'Mohammedan sympathies', under your bed, in the text, crawling like invisible ants in your hair..
Coz i've written on that blog about promoting socialism against both white nationalist fascism and Islamicism.
Oh, and they don't call themselves 'Mohammedans', seeing it as pejorative and insulting term, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. I might be an atheist and marxist, but i don't go out of my way to insult peoples belief systems, especially people on the receiving end of western chauvinism and racist, imperialist supremacism, so I prefer the term Muslim. This attitude probably makes you think I am a race traitor, or someone who has abandoned enlightenment values or somesuch, which is the point of your above post.


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## Stoat Boy (Mar 30, 2010)

Why should the EDL support an organisation such as UNITE ? UNITE makes no bones about its support for the UAF and so its only natural that the EDL turn their attention on to it.

Bloody hell, you lefties cannot have it both ways.


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## Captain Hurrah (Mar 30, 2010)

That's brave!


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## frogwoman (Mar 30, 2010)

That's hardly surprising to be honest.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 30, 2010)

The EDL are looking more like a far-right front by the week.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2010)

if it was good enough for marx and engels to call moslems mohammedans then it's good enough for me.


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## Fedayn (Mar 30, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> if it was good enough for marx and engels to call moslems mohammedans then it's good enough for me.



The word had different connotations 150 years ago. Language changes, the baggage with words changes.


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## Hocus Eye. (Mar 30, 2010)

Captain Hurrah said:


> That's brave!



It is ironic that the faces of the EDL members are much more covered up than the obviously Muslim woman on the train.  

Brave indeed, especially the photographer Angela Catlin to get up so close with her camera.  I wonder if she was working with the permission of the EDL.  She has taken pictures in a lot of war zones including Gaza.  What a pity that she has only to travel to an English city for her story.

I would also have liked to have seen that photograph in the context of the Daily Mail where it was published, and to have seen any caption or text comment that accompanied it.


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## Spion (Mar 30, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> if it was good enough for marx and engels to call moslems mohammedans then it's good enough for me.


Yeah, but you've got an excuse, being so old


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## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2010)

There is no 'the EDL' to be able to say 'the edl thinks this' or 'the edl thinks that' - it's very existence is defined by incoherence and confusion, not by presenting a unified political face beyond the obvious single issue.This might well just be one knobber posting a crap a article that's attempted to connect the dots with the recent UNITE red-scares in certain papers with the UAF and coming up with 5. The edl mean nothing whatsoever as regards unions or disputes. So what if some joker in them has a miles off target communist-phobia - i bet in every large 'single issue' group there's some moron who thinks like that. It's not evidence that a) the edl as a whole believe that rubbish or that  (though a large number of them do seem to swallow rubbish) b)there's some sort of popular w/c anti-union groundswell.

BTW,you still in the labour party Barry?


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## frogwoman (Mar 30, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> The word had different connotations 150 years ago. Language changes, the baggage with words changes.



yep.


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## revlon (Mar 30, 2010)

strange that when you quote the edl on your front page you conventiently miss out the first sentence.



> The EDL know that unions have a part to play to protect workers’ rights, to ensure that employees are treated fairly in the workplace.



Seeme everyone has an agenda.

It's unite flags on anti-edl demos. It's making the links. It's rallying the troops. It's knowing the enemy. It's Unite = uaf = the enemy. Mostly it's getting it completely wrong.


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## Barry Kade (Mar 30, 2010)

??? Butchers... I've never been in the Labour Party ...


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## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2010)

Barry Kade said:


> ??? Butchers... I've never been in the Labour Party ...



My apols then. I thought you were one of the remaining trots in the labour party. Sorry.


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## Jeff Robinson (Mar 30, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> My apols then. I thought you were one of the remaining trots in the labour party. Sorry.



I think you're thinking of Barry Buitekant.


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## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2010)

Yes, you're right. I was.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> There is no 'the EDL' to be able to say 'the edl thinks this' or 'the edl thinks that' - it's very existence is defined by incoherence and confusion, not by presenting a unified political face beyond the obvious single issue.This might well just be one knobber posting a crap a article that's attempted to connect the dots with the recent UNITE red-scares in certain papers with the UAF and coming up with 5. The edl mean nothing whatsoever as regards unions or disputes. So what if some joker in them has a miles off target communist-phobia - i bet in every large 'single issue' group there's some moron who thinks like that. It's not evidence that a) the edl as a whole believe that rubbish or that  (though a large number of them do seem to swallow rubbish) b)there's some sort of popular w/c anti-union groundswell.



That's all very well, but life becomes difficult for ordinary political activity, when public meetings become targets for disruption and difficult to hold due to threats. Then activists become targeted, some beaten up, some having their windows put through, late night threatening telephone calls and the rest. I've seen all this before first hand and it sucks.

It's becoming clearer that the EDL membership/supporters are being increasingly given the message that as well as Muslims, it's also the left and trade unionists, who are also a problem. Nothing confused about this. Important to understand that it's deliberate and calculated.


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 31, 2010)

So far the biggest anti left targetted violence was a wee Rangers fan in Manchester pouring a can of coke on a left wing stall. Verbal threats were made. Bristol saw about ten EDL attend a UAF meeting and the UAF called the plod to eject the EDL, who hadnt done any violence, but had been pissed and mouthy.

I think Weyman is getting the SWP Workers/Party militia going. They ve been on manouvres with rolled up Socialist Workers to be used as coshes.


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## ernestolynch (Mar 31, 2010)

Hocus Eye. said:


> It is ironic that the faces of the EDL members are much more covered up than the obviously Muslim woman on the train.
> 
> Brave indeed, especially the photographer Angela Catlin to get up so close with her camera.  I wonder if she was working with the permission of the EDL.  She has taken pictures in a lot of war zones including Gaza.  What a pity that she has only to travel to an English city for her story.
> 
> I would also have liked to have seen that photograph in the context of the Daily Mail where it was published, and to have seen any caption or text comment that accompanied it.



You really should read, once in a while, the likes of the Mail and Express, as you're in danger of mythologising it into some far right hate sheet like what Billy Baked Bean does. They have vociferous opinion against the EDL, as do the Sun and Telegraph. There are all Liberal papers like the Beanian. All more likely to be anti union than anti mussulman. Can i make it clear- MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT INFLUENCED BY THE PAPERS.


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## ernestolynch (Mar 31, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> The word had different connotations 150 years ago. Language changes, the baggage with words changes.



Trotskyists may have broken away from Marxist thought, but I haven't. As an unrepentant communist I reserve the right to call any obscurantist cabal whatever name I see fit.


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## Captain Hurrah (Mar 31, 2010)

Brain control waves, beamed out from Wapping.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

fiannanahalba said:


> So far the biggest anti left targetted violence was a wee Rangers fan in Manchester pouring a can of coke on a left wing stall. Verbal threats were made. Bristol saw about ten EDL attend a UAF meeting and the UAF called the plod to eject the EDL, who hadnt done any violence, but had been pissed and mouthy.
> 
> I think Weyman is getting the SWP Workers/Party militia going. They ve been on manouvres with rolled up Socialist Workers to be used as coshes.



This may begin with threats which appear minor from someone who wasn't even there, but can turn very nasty in time believe me.

You forgot to mention about Weyman Bennett allegedly being assaulted in the street by two, as yet, unknown assailants.


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## past caring (Mar 31, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You forgot to mention about Weyman Bennett allegedly being assaulted in the street by two, as yet, unknown assailants.



Yeah - but the veg samosas dropped by one of 'em ought to have been a pretty fucking obvious clue, didn't it?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 31, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Who will stand up and say fuck off to fascism AND islam?



The EDL say they will cos UAF are "fascist" or something. Are you going to get along to one their jollies if you dislike islam so much to make such a generalised remark?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 31, 2010)

I know it's an interesting development, but do we really need a new thread to discuss this nazi front and their dupes?


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

Appears that EDL members are planning a rally on a “Not Compatible with Britain” theme, attacking nutzis and Communists. Anarchists included.






Source.

It's oviously lost on the EDL that communists and anarchists have a long tradition in British politics. Unlike say the johnny come lately EDL. Fascist groups, like the BNP make a brief appearance from time to time, but then are driven back to the gutter from whence they came by communists and anarchists. Contrary to the EDL who seem to welcome them generally.

I also surmise that those who hate "pakis" are compatible with this EDL themed event, as they appear to have a considerable number amongst their ranks from what I've seen and heard, so the tolerant nature of the British people is also lost on these fuckwits.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

past caring said:


> Yeah - but the veg samosas dropped by one of 'em ought to have been a pretty fucking obvious clue, didn't it?



I see you've not mellowed with age and have returned here, after some absence, still posting the same unoriginal, humourless crap you used to.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> if it was good enough for marx and engels to call moslems mohammedans then it's good enough for me.



It was a term used by orientalists at the time (origins coming from Christian polemic). Marx and Engels don't seem to have used it pejoratively, and they didn't take a denigrating attitude towards the religious in general - they were a bit more enlightened than that. But if you want to sound like a 19th century imperialist surveyor, or Nick Griffin, then knock yourself out...

They also used the n word, btw (which is hardly the same, not that the point is hard to grasp).


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## ernestolynch (Mar 31, 2010)

And the islamophile trots crawl out yet again.


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## past caring (Mar 31, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I see you've not mellowed with age and have returned here, after some absence, still posting the same unoriginal, humourless crap you used to.



If only the originality that you profess to admire were in some way refelected in your politics.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 31, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Appears that EDL members are planning a rally on a “Not Compatible with Britain” theme, attacking nutzis and Communists. Anarchists included.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This represents the sort of branching out they need to do to avoid stagnation. On the surface it's clever enough propaganda, but as with all branching out it carries risk - the risk here IMO being "who the fuck are these muppets to tell us what is and isn't comapatible with Britain" - sounds a rather er...fascistic kind of judgement to make.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 31, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> And the islamophile trots crawl out yet again.



You neglected to tell us, you clearly have disdain for islam and the left and are quick ro be general and simplistic, so is singing "Allah is a paedo" out of tune more up your street?


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You neglected to tell us, you clearly have disdain for islam and the left and are quick ro be general and simplistic, so is singing "Allah is a paedo" out of tune more up your street?



probably more into ethnic cleansing...


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## ernestolynch (Mar 31, 2010)

I hate mohammedanism and greenism equally, as I am a communist.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

Communism has nothing to with 'hate' and everything to with ridding the world of such reactionary stupidity. The kind of thinking you put forward leads to the killing fields of Cambodia and megalomaniacs of the like of Pol Pot and Stalin. Nevertheless, I'm not averse to the use of mass violence to end the hate, as long as it's disciplined, controlled effectively and specifically targeted against the real promoters of hate.


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## ernestolynch (Mar 31, 2010)

I smell Trot.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

I smell a boring old fart.


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## revlon (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Communism has nothing to with 'hate' and everything to with ridding the world of such reactionary stupidity. The kind of thinking you put forward leads to the killing fields of Cambodia and megalomaniacs of the like of Pol Pot and Stalin. Nevertheless, I'm not averse to the use of mass violence to end the hate, as long as it's disciplined, controlled effectively and specifically targeted against the real promoters of hate.



pasty-faced chav scum (self-employed)?


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> pasty-faced chav scum (self-employed)?



Could be, but not exclusively so.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> I hate mohammedanism and greenism equally, as I am a communist.



How exciting. I read a letter in the morning star a few weeks back from someone who, as a "loyal communist" would be voting Labour.

are you that much a communist?


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## revlon (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Could be, but not exclusively so.



islamic fundamentalists?


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## fiannanahalba (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> This may begin with threats which appear minor from someone who wasn't even there, but can turn very nasty in time believe me.
> 
> You forgot to mention about Weyman Bennett allegedly being assaulted in the street by two, as yet, unknown assailants.





They can indeed turn very nasty, especially dwarfish huns.

Always have a rolled up SW handy. They dont like it when we fight back.

Only two? Weyman would have felt insulted.


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## Spion (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> I hate mohammedanism and greenism equally, as I am a communist.


You're a sometime Hoxhaite (ie, the nutty end of Stalinism) who has drifted ever rightwards since your world caved in. Now reduced to being a sort of walking joke on the internet


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

Spion said:


> You're a sometime Hoxhaite (ie, the nutty end of Stalinism) who has drifted ever rightwards since your world caved in. Now reduced to being a sort of walking joke on the internet



Glad to see you take interest. I couldn't even begin to describe you. Apart from the fact you said you don't wash very often'.


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## Dan U (Apr 1, 2010)

communists and fascists are all deluded idiots


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 1, 2010)

Dan U said:


> communists and fascists are all deluded idiots



You've met and talked to all of them?

Louis MacNeice


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## Dan U (Apr 1, 2010)

of course not

i was making a sweeping generalisation

it's the urban way


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## starfish2000 (Apr 1, 2010)

There a load of football casuals, so its Sun reader politics, and I guess if your white van man you work cash in hand and don't have a pension or terms and conditions to erode.

Thing is they'll shoot themselves in the foot with this as a lot of people who'd go along with them in one area are actually unionised white working class, so there kinda fucked I reckon.


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2010)

One of the original sources for this is  SWP/UAF's Richard Seymours 'Lenins Tomb' Blog, this was the guy who in classic Stalinist style the Refinery dispute changed from supporting the protests to opposoing them after he heard the party line, and completely redited the blog on the issue,how can you take such a guy and his writing seriously.


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## emanymton (Apr 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> strange that when you quote the edl on your front page you conventiently miss out the first sentence.



You mean the sentence that is the equivalent to 'I'm not a racist but ...'

Where not anti-trade union but ...


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2010)

ah,the creed of the text dweller:always looking for any sign of deviance/heresy/etc.


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## revlon (Apr 1, 2010)

emanymton said:


> You mean the sentence that is the equivalent to 'I'm not a racist but ...'
> 
> Where not anti-trade union but ...



The interesting aspect is why barry kade felt the need to leave it out?


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## Spion (Apr 1, 2010)

Yeah, it's fascinating.


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## lowjohnny (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Who will stand up and say fuck off to fascism AND islam?



This. ^^^


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 1, 2010)

Islam has as much right to exist as any other religion. Generalising a faith is very very dangerous. People have a right to practice faith or none. Period. 

Replace the statement with "Who will stand up and say fuck off to the Catholics?" - "Who will say fuck off to the Jews?"

The mythologising about the islamic community is nauseating, it must be hard for them not to be inward facing.

The EDL claim to say fuck off to fascism and islam, perhaps you should look into them, work on the drunken swagger and being a bit of a loser.


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2010)

> The EDL claim to say fuck off to fascism and islam, perhaps you should look into them, work on the drunken swagger and being a bit of a loser.




don't forget the 'pasty face'


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## Spion (Apr 1, 2010)

Treelover: Standing up for pasty-faced losers and whey-faced harridans since the last thing he thought was tomorrow's great hope (which was climate camp a couple of years ago, if I remember his gushing review correctly)


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## Jeff Robinson (Apr 1, 2010)

treelover said:


> don't forget the 'pasty face'



And the halitosis breaths.


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## revlon (Apr 1, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Islam has as much right to exist as any other religion. Generalising a faith is very very dangerous. People have a right to practice faith or none. Period.
> 
> Replace the statement with "Who will stand up and say fuck off to the Catholics?" - "Who will say fuck off to the Jews?"
> 
> ...



shouldn't we be opposing islam because, as a religion, it divides the working class against itself? And isn't this the basis we should oppose all religions?


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> shouldn't we be opposing islam because, as a religion, it divides the working class against itself? And isn't this the basis we should oppose all religions?



It's a green who said it, they dig loony faiths.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Islam has as much right to exist as any other religion. Generalising a faith is very very dangerous. People have a right to practice faith or none. Period.
> 
> Replace the statement with "Who will stand up and say fuck off to the Catholics?" - "Who will say fuck off to the Jews?"
> 
> ...



You can't see the difference between 'islam' and 'moslems'; 'judaism' and 'jews'; 'RC church' and 'catholics' then you are the stupidest liberal i've seen on bean.   
Have you any idea of the magnitude of this accolade?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You can't see the difference between 'islam' and 'moslems'; 'judaism' and 'jews'; 'RC church' and 'catholics' then you are the stupidest liberal i've seen on bean.
> Have you any idea of the magnitude of this accolade?



I can tell the difference thanks  "Islam" as a faith is very broad. 
Saying "fuck off" to the entire faith held by over 1 billion people is highly offensive. telling extremisits to "fuck off" might be different, although the far right hide behind that one too. "islam fuck off" like the "no new mosques" of the EDL is fundementalist and extreme.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I can tell the difference thanks  "Islam" as a faith is very broad.
> Saying "fuck off" to the entire faith held by over 1 billion people is highly offensive. telling extremisits to "fuck off" might be different, although the far right hide behind that one too. "islam fuck off" like the "no new mosques" of the EDL is fundementalist and extreme.



Let me spell it out for you: I AM A COMMUNIST. Take your obscurantisms and shove them up your arse.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 1, 2010)

'obscurantist *cabal*'


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## emanymton (Apr 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> shouldn't we be opposing islam because, as a religion, it divides the working class against itself? And isn't this the basis we should oppose all religions?



Not if your see yourself as a marxist no.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 1, 2010)

Religion will disappear when the religious dimension of the world does, which is why the marxist answer to religion is disalienation by the establishment of communism.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

Question to those who 'respect' islam. What is stopping you from submitting likewise?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You really should read, once in a while, the likes of the Mail and Express, as you're in danger of mythologising it into some far right hate sheet like what Billy Baked Bean does. They have vociferous opinion against the EDL, as do the Sun and Telegraph. There are all Liberal papers like the Beanian. All more likely to be anti union than anti mussulman. Can i make it clear- MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT INFLUENCED BY THE PAPERS.



It's fair to say that the conservative press, even that which we might call hard-right, haven't been generally sympathetic to EDL (I might make an exception for the disgusting Star which gave them at least one big propaganda puff)

But the subject falls under the way they can fetishise fascism just by giving it attention - there could also be an implied message of: "see what happens when we are not listened to?"


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Let me spell it out for you: I AM A COMMUNIST. Take your obscurantisms and shove them up your arse.



You call yourself a COMMUNIST which means jack shit. Posting that in capital letters makes you look a bigger fool than usual. That takes some doing.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You call yourself a COMMUNIST which means jack shit. Posting that in capital letters makes you look a bigger fool than usual. That takes some doing.



Do you respect islam? Y/N


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## emanymton (Apr 1, 2010)

emanymton said:


> Not if your see yourself as a marxist no.



For example this passage from On The Jewish Question




			
				Marx said:
			
		

> The question is: What is the relation of complete political emancipation to religion? If we find that even in the country of complete political emancipation (America), religion not only exists, but displays a fresh and vigorous vitality, that is proof that the existence of religion is not in contradiction to the perfection of the state. Since, however, the existence of religion is the existence of defect, the source of this defect can only be sought in the nature of the state itself. We no longer regard religion as the cause, but only as the manifestation of secular narrowness. Therefore, we explain the religious limitations of the free citizen by their secular limitations. We do not assert that they must overcome their religious narrowness in order to get rid of their secular restrictions, we assert that they will overcome their religious narrowness once they get rid of their secular restrictions


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 1, 2010)

From an article on "islamic socialism":

_Scholars have highlighted the similarities between the Islamic economic system and socialist theory, e.g., both are against unearned income. Islam does allow private ownership but natural resources and large industries are owned collectively.
_

I would add that the sense of Umma within Islam would echo many socialist tendencies if applied to the whole world, which seeing as we are considered islamic from conception, it does.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

Submit then.


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Do you respect islam? Y/N



People have beliefs different to mine, of course I respect that. Doesn't mean I agree with their mystical, nonsensical belief system and I will argue the toss with the less dogmatic of those of whatever belief system they adhere to.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> People have beliefs different to mine, of course I respect that. Doesn't mean I agree with their mystical, nonsensical belief system and I will argue the toss with the less dogmatic of those of whatever belief system they adhere to.



Y/N


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Y/N



I made my point pretty clear to all but the most dogmatic on here.


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## revlon (Apr 1, 2010)

what you said is you respect the right of others to have different beliefs than you. 

Not the same thing.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I made my point pretty clear to all but the most dogmatic on here.



Y/N


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> what you said is you respect the right of others to have different beliefs than you.
> 
> Not the same thing.



I respect the right of others who have different beliefs to me, which of course includes those who follow the teachings of Islam. Questioning whether I respect Islam illicits the same response I gave earlier, that along with other such mumbo jumbo, I would put it in the same category, being a mystical nonsensical belief system that I respectfully reject.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I respect the right of others who have different beliefs to me, which of course includes those who follow the teachings of Islam. Questioning whether I respect Islam illicits the same response I gave earlier, that along with other such mumbo jumbo, I would put it in the same category, being a mystical nonsensical belief system that I respectfully reject.



Y/N


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Y/N



You would make an excellent participant in a Stalinist show trial. Beria would be proud and the finest vodka would be bought out for the celebratory drink after all the executions had been finalised.

Y/N?


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## emanymton (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Do you respect islam? Y/N



How can you respect or disrespect Islam, people can be respected (or not) but religions can not be.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Do you respect islam? Y/N



^


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## emanymton (Apr 1, 2010)

There are Muslims who I respect and ones I don't just as their are some christians I respect and some I don't. There are even some Satanists I respect, you however ern are not one of them. 

Asking if you respect Islam is like asking if you respect music it makes no sense it is the wrong sort of thing to be respected. I think the technical term would be that you are making a category mistake with your question


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> *I respect the right of others who have different beliefs to me, which of course includes those who follow the teachings of Islam.* Questioning whether I respect Islam illicits the same response I gave earlier, that along with other such mumbo jumbo, I would put it in the same category, being a mystical nonsensical belief system that I respectfully reject.



You respect their right to do what? Is it a right merely to hold a belief, but not to try to put it into practice? If so it may not feel like much of right; more of a patronising piece of largesse. Anyway MC5 you feel free to believe what you want; now run along and post another of your 'illuminating' anecdotes.

Louis MacNeice


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I respect the right of others who have different beliefs to me,



 This is apparently quite difficult for some to get their heads around.


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 1, 2010)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> This is apparently quite difficult for some to get their heads around.



It's not hard to get your head around; rather it is lacking in content to such a degree as to be worthless. It is a right to do what exactly?

Louis MacNeice


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 1, 2010)

It's people and not beliefs that are worthy of respect.


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## audiotech (Apr 1, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You respect their right to do what? Is it a right merely to hold a belief, but not to try to put it into practice? If so it may not feel like much of right; more of a patronising piece of largesse. Anyway MC5 you feel free to believe what you want; now run along and post another of your 'illuminating' anecdotes.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



They have a right to practice their beliefs privately and not shove it down my throat. As for any 'illuminating anecdotes' I post, I respect your right not to read them if you so wish, but I thought it would bring some cheer to the humdrum academic world you inhabit?

Peter Green, who only a couple of weeks ago I saw singing this classic is apt here:

"Now, when I talked to God I knew he'd understand
He said, Stick by me and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"

Oh well.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 1, 2010)

lowjohnny said:


> This. ^^^



Lol

Well my ex was a Muslim and was well up for sex outside of marriage so she was one of the ok ones I guess. I don't doubt that her family are monsters.

She had no truck with political Islam though, or islamists which they are known by. And being black I guess she's used to being generalised by the culture imperialists of the west so it makes no odds I guess. She liked the concept of communism when I explained it to her though, but I clearly wasted my time as she's "one of them".


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 1, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't doubt that her family are monsters.



Why?


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## Citizen66 (Apr 1, 2010)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Why?



Your sarcasm detector will be upgraded after the weekend. Make no hasty judgements until your maps are updated and your internal software is the latest version.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 1, 2010)

Fair enough.

I've heard such things said that weren't even in jest, which obviously numbs my sarcasm detection.


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## phildwyer (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Question to those who 'respect' islam. What is stopping you from submitting likewise?



I respect Islam, as any intelligent person would, but I do not believe that Mohammed was the seal of the prophets.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2010)

thus die all the seals of the prophets


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> *They have a right to practice their beliefs privately and not shove it down my throat. *



So patronising largesse then, of the _you can believe what you like as long as it doesn't affect me and mine_ variety. 

As for the anecdote; well it wasn't one of your best.

Louis MacNeice


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## Citizen66 (Apr 1, 2010)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I've heard such things said that weren't even in jest, which obviously numbs my sarcasm detection.



But probably not sandwiched between the same monologues as mine.

Hint: read all of it.


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## Karac (Apr 1, 2010)

Barry Kade said:


> But i doubt if an ethnic minority of 2.7 % is about to impose an Islamicist dictatorship on Britain - even if they wanted to. (And most Muslims aren't islamicists).


Though you wouldnt guess that if you glanced at what passes for the popular press in Englandandwales


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## Dan U (Apr 1, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.






ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> i am a communist lol bean





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.





ernestolynch said:


> bean.


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## tar1984 (Apr 1, 2010)

Dan U said:


>



Hey, that was good banter in 2005...


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## ernestolynch (Apr 1, 2010)

Oh sorry, is liberalism the in thing now?


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 2, 2010)

Hopefully marxism.


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## Davo1 (Apr 2, 2010)

Why does it have to have an 'ism'?

What about 'ity', or 'hood' 

I have been thinking of bringing 'brotherhood' back into the public arena....

Bring back the brotherhoods!!


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 2, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> Why does it have to have an 'ism'?



Because that 'ism' refers to the only project that comes close to understanding the problems of, and to seriously creating anew, the modern world, and Marx had the best critique of religion and properly understood its role in class society, and he'd understand that we are even more alienated in our epoch - after all, that's why religious consciousness has come again to the fore as a political actor.


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## Davo1 (Apr 2, 2010)

Ibn Khaldoun said:
			
		

> Because that 'ism' refers to the only project that comes close to understanding the problems of, and to seriously creating anew, the modern world, and Marx had the best critique of religion and properly understood its role in class society, and he'd understand that we are even more alienated in our epoch - after all, that's why religious consciousness has come again to the fore as a political actor.



I still think it should be a 'ness' (as in togetherness') or an 'ity' (as in 'community'). Isms stink of the enlightenment, all that 'science of society' crap (read: 'social engineering').

You're right tho, it is 'religious' our 'being together'. 

Think there's alot to be said for Fourier meself. I feel bored, don't know about 'alienated'. Such a dated term.


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So patronising largesse then, of the _you can believe what you like as long as it doesn't affect me and mine_ variety.
> 
> As for the anecdote; well it wasn't one of your best.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



I'm saying nothing of the kind, but at 2.47am pissed and having just had a jam with some musicians I can't think beyond that. After listening to 'skinhead moonstomp' and other such classics on spotify, I'm off to bed.

Nighty night. Hic! 


...


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## ernestolynch (Apr 2, 2010)

It's Jools Holland, by the gods!


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 2, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> I still think it should be a 'ness' (as in togetherness') or an 'ity' (as in 'community'). Isms stink of the enlightenment, all that 'science of society' crap (read: 'social engineering').
> 
> You're right tho, it is 'religious' our 'being together'.
> 
> Think there's alot to be said for Fourier meself. I feel bored, don't know about 'alienated'. Such a dated term.



Social engineering isn't so bad, depending on what form it takes. It can be positively beneficial. And a (philosophically) scientific understanding of our activities and relations is indispensable, as long as it's not the erroneous kind that pretends to be far too 'empirical'.

I don't understand how alienation can[_] be considered 'out of date', unless it has been severely misunderstood (as it is mostly) - if anything it find its _true_ explanatory power today, with the domination of capitalism in more and more areas of life, compared with any previous moment.


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## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> This may begin with threats which appear minor from someone who wasn't even there, but can turn very nasty in time believe me.
> 
> You forgot to mention about Weyman Bennett allegedly being assaulted in the street by two, as yet, unknown assailants.



wasn't this alleged incident months ago?


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## tim (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Communism has nothing to with 'hate' and everything to with ridding the world of such reactionary stupidity. The kind of thinking you put forward leads to the killing fields of Cambodia and megalomaniacs of the like of Pol Pot and Stalin. Nevertheless, I'm not averse to the use of mass violence to end the hate, as long as it's disciplined, controlled effectively and specifically targeted against the real promoters of hate.



Mass violence to end a  subjective abstract concept.


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## tim (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I respect the right of others who have different beliefs to me, which of course includes those who follow the teachings of Islam. Questioning whether I respect Islam illicits the same response I gave earlier, that along with other such mumbo jumbo, I would put it in the same category, being a mystical nonsensical belief system that I respectfully reject.



How can you respect something you define as nonsensical mumbo-jumbo. Surely, you mean to patronisingly tolerate.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 2, 2010)

tim said:


> How can you respect something you define as nonsensical mumbo-jumbo. Surely, you mean to patronisingly tolerate.



He, and all the other beans, do not respect islam. They are too chicken shit to say so.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Apr 2, 2010)

I respect (in the sense of liking) some things and not others, and many I have no opinion about because I don't give a fuck.


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> wasn't this alleged incident months ago?



Yes and your point being?


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## ernestolynch (Apr 2, 2010)

Y/N


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

tim said:


> How can you respect something you define as nonsensical mumbo-jumbo. Surely, you mean to patronisingly tolerate.



I don't respect it, I respectfully reject it is what I said.


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> beans



On toast this morning?

Y/N


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## ernestolynch (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I don't respect it, I respectfully reject it is what I said.



You don't respect what?


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You don't respect what?



Beans.


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## tim (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I don't respect it, I respectfully reject it is what I said.



You reject it with respect, but you don't respect it. You're a master of clarity! How do you define respect?


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

tim said:


> You reject it with respect, but you don't respect it. You're a master of clarity! How do you define respect?



I define it my way.


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## tim (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I define it my way.



Enlighten us, Oh great one!


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

tim said:


> Enlighten us, Oh great one!



Respect is subjective. I have no respect for ^ this you've just posted for example, whist you probably think the opposite.


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## tim (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Respect is subjective. I have no respect for ^ this you've just posted for example, whist you probably think the opposite.



That's not a definition though, is it? You seem adept at making comments that don't actually seem to make much sense (I'm thinking also about your earlier "hate" comment), that you then are unable  or unwilling to either explain or excuse.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 2, 2010)

You're not showing islam any respect with this behaviour, Mac.


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## phildwyer (Apr 2, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> He, and all the other beans, do not respect islam. They are too chicken shit to say so.



Why wouldn't they respect Islam?  Why are beanery and Islam mutually exclusive?  I fail to see the impasse.


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## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Yes and your point being?



that it is all part of a picture so big that we cannot really see it?


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## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> From an article on "islamic socialism":
> 
> _Scholars have highlighted the similarities between the Islamic economic system and socialist theory, e.g., both are against unearned income. Islam does allow private ownership but natural resources and large industries are owned collectively.
> _
> ...




what sense is that then? Umma is no more a part of Islam as is the notion of a christian commonwealth is within Christianity


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## rioted (Apr 2, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Can i make it clear- MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT INFLUENCED BY THE PAPERS.


Enough are to matter.

Of course people are influenced by papers. Where do people get information about things outside their direct experience? Who decides what information goes in the papers?


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

tim said:


> That's not a definition though, is it? You seem adept at making comments that don't actually seem to make much sense (I'm thinking also about your earlier "hate" comment), that you then are unable  or unwilling to either explain or excuse.



I sense that you're just being a pain with you incessant twaddle.


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You're not showing islam any respect with this behaviour, Mac.



Boo Hoo.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 2, 2010)

You'll be sorry when we are laughing at the video on liveleak of your beheading.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You'll be sorry when we are laughing at the video on liveleak of your beheading.



he'll have a leak when he sees them bringing out the saw.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2010)

rioted said:


> Enough are to matter.
> 
> Of course people are influenced by papers. Where do people get information about things outside their direct experience? Who decides what information goes in the papers?



Papers both reflect and construct society and its ideas, they are part of the superstructure of capitalist society.


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## audiotech (Apr 3, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You'll be sorry when we are laughing at the video on liveleak of your beheading.



The Muslims I know have no intention of beheading anyone, least of all me.


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## audiotech (Apr 3, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> he'll have a leak when he sees them bringing out the saw.



You've been watching too many spoof horror films, as a saw is not the usual implement used in beheadings.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 3, 2010)

MC5 said:


> The Muslims I know have no intention of beheading anyone, least of all me.



Best customer in the kebab shop.


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## audiotech (Apr 3, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Best customer in the kebab shop.



I stay away from kebabs, I have to watch my cholesterol.


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