# Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Suspicion of murder? Fuck that, the guy deserves a medal for bravery. 



> A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.
> 
> The homeowner discovered two intruders in South Park Crescent, Hither Green, south-east London, at about 00:45 BST.
> 
> One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed, Scotland Yard said.


Man, 78, held in 'burglar' murder probe


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

Sub judice, etc...


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sub judice, etc...


Aye but


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sub judice, etc...



It's being discussed across the internet, it's already 11 pages over on digitalspy, so I reckon we are safe to discuss it on here.

Not that it will ever end-up in front of a jury, but if it did, I think the BBC is more likely to prejudice them by including the following in the article linked above...



> *What are your rights if someone breaks into your home?*
> The CPS and police urge people to always call the police first - if you are able.
> 
> But according to official guidance, anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves.
> ...



The police are just going through the motions here.


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## weltweit (Apr 4, 2018)

If the homeowner gets charged there will be an uproar.


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## Grump (Apr 4, 2018)

I live near where Tony Martin shot a burglar some years ago, and a lot of people thought he deserved a medal rather than prison. If this guy did stab a burglar good luck to him.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Grump said:


> I live near where Tony Martin shot a burglar some years ago, and a lot of people thought he deserved a medal rather than prison. If this guy did stab a burglar good luck to him.



The Tony Martin situation was very different, he shot the guy in the back as he was running away, beyond what is considered 'reasonable force' in protecting himself, in the eyes of the law.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's being discussed across the internet, it's already 11 pages over on digitalspy, so I reckon we are safe to discuss it on here.
> 
> Not that it will ever end-up in front of a jury, but if it did, I think the BBC is more likely to prejudice them by including the following in the article linked above...
> 
> ...



Sure, do remember u75 is ostensibly a South London board, so very local. Of course it can be talked about, but anything that could be prejudicial in a trial, a trial in either direction, should be avoided. Would be very easy for this topic to decend in to, “he was burgling, them’s the breaks” type shit. We are not the USA, it is possible the homeowner went over the top, we just don’t know and until we do it is best to be cautious. Ed is the man who gets shit for what we write, but ultimately we write it and are responsible for what we write.

Prince Philip fucks dead sheep btw.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Tony Martin situation was very different, he shot the guy in the back as he was running away, beyond what is considered 'reasonable force' in protecting himself, in the eyes of the law.



See dude? We have no idea what happened last night.


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## agricola (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Tony Martin situation was very different, he shot the guy in the back as he was running away, beyond what is considered 'reasonable force' in protecting himself, in the eyes of the law.



It was, but Martin's problem was that the story he came out with - that the burglars had startled him and he fired at a torch - was demonstrably wrong. 

If he had fronted up and said what he actually did the jury would have had far more to consider and might have let him off.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> See dude? We have no idea what happened last night.



Well, we do know this guy didn't use an illegally held pump-action shotgun.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well, we do know this guy didn't use an illegally held pump-action shotgun.



And?


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## Thimble Queen (Apr 4, 2018)

He probably thought he had an easy mark going for that old boy.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

agricola said:


> It was, but Martin's problem was that the story he came out with - that the burglars had startled him and he fired at a torch - was demonstrably wrong.
> 
> If he had fronted up and said what he actually did the jury would have had far more to consider and might have let him off.



Yeah he bubbled himself up cos he’s a dick, his brief was a dick and Old Bill are cunts. Doesn’t change the fact that his shot in anger, not cos of threat. The Bloody Code no longer applies, thieves should not be killed for their crimes.


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> thieves should not be killed for their crimes.



Easily avoided by not breaking into people’s homes.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Easily avoided by not breaking into people’s homes.



Classy.


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Classy.



So what? Burglars are vermin. They’d have my sympathy if they were desperate and did Tesco’s rather than where someone lives.


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## Gromit (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah he bubbled himself up cos he’s a dick, his brief was a dick and Old Bill are cunts. Doesn’t change the fact that his shot in anger, not cos of threat. The Bloody Code no longer applies, thieves should not be killed for their crimes.


He wasn't. He was killed for being an agravated burglar brandishing a weapon.


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## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> He probably thought he had an easy mark going for that old boy.


They. Two of them according to the news.


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## xenon (Apr 4, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So what? Burglars are vermin. They’d have my sympathy if they were desperate and did Tesco’s rather than where someone lives.



Yep.  This.


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## Thimble Queen (Apr 4, 2018)

sealion said:


> They. Two of them according to the news.



Yeah that's what it says in the op as well. I'm talking about the dead one.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So what? Burglars are vermin.



Nicely dehumanised. A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary, a crime that is distressing as fuck for the victim and results in very little gain for the perpetrator. Rather than rail against a system which produces that, you go for the result of that system. Speakyerbranes75.net


Corax’s racism and this. Place has gone to shit.


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nicely dehumanised. A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary, a crime that is distressing as fuck for the victim and results in very little gain for the perpetrator. Rather than rail against a system which produces that, you go for the result of that system. Speakyerbranes75.net



It’s possible to both condemn the system and the burglar. They’re not mutually exclusive.


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## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary,


His choices, just the same as someone stuck in a shit job that choses not to thieve but go to work for a pittance.


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## Saul Goodman (Apr 4, 2018)

I don't know the full story, but based on the assumption that the old lad was indeed held at screwdriverpoint in the kitchen, I'm finding it hard to muster up any sympathy for the dead lad. 
But I don't know the full story.


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## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nicely dehumanised. A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary, a crime that is distressing as fuck for the victim and results in very little gain for the perpetrator. Rather than rail against a system which produces that, you go for the result of that system.


Fucking Ada, mate. You need to give the wheatgrass juice a break.


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## Vintage Paw (Apr 4, 2018)

dailymail75.net


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 4, 2018)

Vintage Paw said:


> dailymail75.net



Have you been burgled? I fucking have. I lost about 8k worth of stuff which was never replaced. Despising burglars makes me right wing? You’ve lost control of your faculties.


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## Baronage-Phase (Apr 4, 2018)

Are there laws that state you can defend your property over there?

I know they only came in here in 2011


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nicely dehumanised. A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary, a crime that is distressing as fuck for the victim and results in very little gain for the perpetrator.



Reduced to residential burglary? You're having a fucking laugh.

As you say, 'little gain for the perpetrator' & 'distressing as fuck for the victim', if he's that desperate, go fuck over a big store, don't go house breaking.


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

So, from the news, a 78 year old man comes down stairs, after midnight, and finds two men (one at least who was half his age), one of whom is armed with a screwdriver.

The householder's disabled wife is also in the house.

There is a scuffle, and the would be thief gets his just deserts, then the police investigate the householder on suspicion of murder?

WTF is happening in this country? The police are almost as scummy as those they are supposed to catching.

There is no way that the householder should be charged with anything. He was protecting himself and his wife from a fucking thieving scumbag piece of shit that had broken into his home.

We've been burgled. Mrs Sas slept fitfully, with a hammer under the bed, any time I was away for years afterward.

78 years old FFS, and the well named 'filth' are investigating him for murder? I would have thought some sort of award would be more in order.


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## maomao (Apr 4, 2018)

I had colleagues apoplectic that he had been 'charged with murder' today. Had to repeatedly point out that he hadn't and that if you find someone with a knife and a body covered in blood it's probably worth taking them down the station for a chat. If the story in the papers is true it would seem unlikely he'll do time for it.


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Are there laws that state you can defend your property over there?
> 
> I know they only came in here in 2011



You should be allowed to blow the cunts out of their boots... however...


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## maomao (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> So, from the news, a 78 year old man comes down stairs, after midnight, and finds two men (one at least who was half his age), one of whom is armed with a screwdriver.
> 
> The householder's disabled wife is also in the house.
> 
> ...


So what should they do? Accept his version of events without investigation, shake his hand and leave him to mop up the blood?


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## JimW (Apr 4, 2018)

maomao said:


> I had colleagues apoplectic that he had been 'charged with murder' today. Had to repeatedly point out that he hadn't and that if you find someone with a knife and a body covered in blood it's probably worth taking them down the station for a chat. If the story in the papers is true it would seem unlikely he'll do time for it.


Was just about to post the same; fact the detail about the threat is out suggests they may well not even charge him.


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## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> So, from the news, a 78 year old man comes down stairs, after midnight, and finds two men (one at least who was half his age), one of whom is armed with a screwdriver.
> 
> The householder's disabled wife is also in the house.
> 
> ...


If he killed the bloke in his house he'll be investigated for murder. Of course he will be. Anything could have happened.

If it went down the way you've suggested he probably won't be charged.

Calm down!


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

maomao said:


> I had colleagues apoplectic that he had been 'charged with murder' today. Had to repeatedly point out that he hadn't and that if you find someone with a knife and a body covered in blood it's probably worth taking them down the station for a chat. If the story in the papers is true it would seem unlikely he'll do time for it.



The actions of the police have taken me from someone who received a commendation for braining a drunken Scottish football fan, who was in the process of strangling a police inspector in Kings Cross railway station, to someone who would not piss on a policeman if they were on fire. Of all public services, the one which has declined most, both morally and in the performance of their duty is the police.


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## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

It will go to the cps to decide.


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> If he killed the bloke in his house he'll be _investigated_ for murder. Of course he will. Anything could have happened.
> 
> If it went down the way you've suggested he probably won't be charged.
> 
> Calm down!



I will be purchasing a five iron for the golf range, it doesn't knock the ball a huge distance, but does send it up in the sky very satisfactorily. It will be kept at the top of the stairs, in case there is need to investigate noises in the night.


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

maomao said:


> So what should they do? Accept his version of events without investigation, shake his hand and leave him to mop up the blood?



No, they should offer to mop up the blood.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> So, from the news, a 78 year old man comes down stairs, after midnight, and finds two men (one at least who was half his age), one of whom is armed with a screwdriver.
> 
> The householder's disabled wife is also in the house.
> 
> ...



Sass, they have to investigate, as I posted up thread, they are going through the motions, it's highly unlikely that he'll be charged.


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## hot air baboon (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I will be purchasing a five iron for the golf range, it doesn't knock the ball a huge distance, but does send it up in the sky very satisfactorily. It will be kept at the top of the stairs, in case there is need to investigate noises in the night.



my sister's local plod in the West Country reccommended one of those whacking great metal maglite torches - it'd need the batteries to give it some heft though


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

hot air baboon said:


> my sister's local plod in the West Country reccommended one of those whacking great metal maglite torches - it'd need the batteries to give it some heft though



A baseball bat is ideal, however, as I don't play baseball.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 4, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> He probably thought he had an easy mark going for that old boy.





Magnus McGinty said:


> Easily avoided by not breaking into people’s homes.





Magnus McGinty said:


> So what? Burglars are vermin.





Gromit said:


> He wasn't. He was killed for being an agravated burglar brandishing a weapon.





Sasaferrato said:


> You should be allowed to blow the cunts out of their boots... however...





Sasaferrato said:


> I will be purchasing a five iron for the golf range, it doesn't knock the ball a huge distance, but does send it up in the sky very satisfactorily. It will be kept at the top of the stairs, in case there is need to investigate noises in the night.





Sasaferrato said:


> No, they should offer to mop up the blood.



Bye.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

sealion said:


> It will go to the cps to decide.



You can imagine it, can't you?

Fuck, this potato is hot, as they throw it out the window.


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sass, they have to investigate, as I posted up thread, they are going through the motions, it's highly unlikely that he'll be charged.



One would certainly hope not.

Reasonable force bollocks. If someone breaks into your home, whatever they get they deserve.

No doubt scoped that one out, old guy with a disabled wife, no problem. Wrong!


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## maomao (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> One would certainly hope not.
> 
> Reasonable force bollocks. If someone breaks into your home, whatever they get they deserve.
> 
> No doubt scoped that one out, old guy with a disabled wife, no problem. Wrong!


Do you think all legal cases should be decided by internet blowhards in possession of none of the evidence or are there situations in which you think some sort of rudimentary investigation is necessary?


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## hot air baboon (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> A baseball bat is ideal, however, as I don't play baseball.



that's the point - no need to explain the presence of a torch by the back door


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## Sasaferrato (Apr 4, 2018)

maomao said:


> Do you think all legal cases should be decided by internet blowhards in possession of none of the evidence or are there situations in which you think some sort of rudimentary investigation is necessary?



Ignoring your 'ad hom' which adds nothing to your feeble argument, my point is simple, if someone breaks into your home, you should be entitled in law to take such action as you see fit.

I'm guessing from your tone that you have never been burgled. The damage is a bit more than just the loss of physical possessions, they are insured. You cannot insure against your wife being afraid in her home, a place where she should be able to feel safe.


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## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2018)

Someone has died so there has to be an investigation. It is who does the investigation that will know which way it’s headed.
Hopefully it should be a no-brainer.


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## ddraig (Apr 4, 2018)

hot air baboon said:


> that's the point - no need to explain the presence of a torch by the back door


I have a big maglite, with batteries
and a sawn off, cricket bat


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## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

So Oscar Pistorius  should have not been charged with murder because he claimed it was burglars?

Of course an investigation has to take place an the person responsible for the death of another will need to be arrested on suspicion of murder until the facts are established. We don't know the facts yet.

If it turned out to be his Grandson who was the burglar & they was no evidence of a break in just a family row heard by the neighbours a couple of hours earlier, would you still think the same?


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## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2018)

hot air baboon said:


> that's the point - no need to explain the presence of a torch by the back door



One of those big, rubber torches like a copper allegedly hit me with in the back edge of my ribs many years ago. Allegedly


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## JimW (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ignoring your 'ad hom' which adds nothing to your feeble argument, my point is simple, if someone breaks into your home, you should be entitled in law to take such action as you see fit.
> 
> I'm guessing from your tone that you have never been burgled. The damage is a bit more than just the loss of physical possessions, they are insured. You cannot insure against your wife being afraid in her home, a place where she should be able to feel safe.


So in your world you could murder who you like so long as you can get them to come round your house so you can tell the police they broke in. Or, you know, quick investigation to check dead man is not in fact daughters ex etc


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## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2018)

If you have a baseball bat you need a glove and ball too, otherwise it will appear you have been waiting to hurt someone.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

At 35 I can totally appreciate the desperation of a thief whilst as a carer  100 per cent supporting the old guys right to defend himself against intruders,I see brittle bones no muscle vulnerable skin, fucking scary place the world must be then. Come on guys if you needed to steal wouldnt you pick your target carefully? CUNTS HONOUR, IT MUST BE A THING?


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

*hypothetically, of course, investigation might prove different :


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Fuck having a baseball bat, I have a fire extinguisher that will do the job better.


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## Smangus (Apr 4, 2018)

This happened around the corner from me , I saw the police tape this morning on the way to work and wondered what it was about. There has been a spate of burglaries around here lately, one 2 doors away from me. If this puts would be burglars off then they guy has done us a favour, good luck to him. Fuck the burglars, cunts the lot of them and yes I have been burgled before, if he wasn't there he'd still be alive so no sympathy and not a lot from people around here I should imagine.  

Police just going through due process at the moment. If it ever went to court it would be thrown out by the jury.


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## scifisam (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So Oscar Pistorius  should have not been charged with murder because he claimed it was burglars?
> 
> Of course an investigation has to take place an the person responsible for the death of another will need to be arrested on suspicion of murder until the facts are established. We don't know the facts yet.
> 
> If it turned out to be his Grandson who was the burglar & they was no evidence of a break in just a family row heard by the neighbours a couple of hours earlier, would you still think the same?



Yeah, all sorts of ways it could turn out to be not actually a burglary. Old bloke was the one at the wrong house, one burglar killed the other and blamed the old bloke, the bloke who was killed wasn't the burglar but someone who came to help, etc etc etc. I don't think any of them are very likely - I'd lay money on it being a straightforward burglary gone wrong (for the burglars), and the old bloke won't be charged with anything, but you have to at least _check_. 

Otherwise you'd end up with a situation where a really easy way to murder someone would be to invite them over late at night and claim you thought they were a burglar. Or at least really old people could do that. They could set up a neat assassination business. "Yes, he was a burglar, and I'm 79!" "OK, we'll be on our way then. We'll just throw him in the skip on the way out. See you next week Mildred!"


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## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fuck having a baseball bat, I have a fire extinguisher that will do the job better.



I’ve been hit with one of those too, don’t recommend it!


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## agricola (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah he bubbled himself up cos he’s a dick, his brief was a dick and Old Bill are cunts. Doesn’t change the fact that his shot in anger, not cos of threat. The Bloody Code no longer applies, thieves should not be killed for their crimes.



I never said that they should be.  Even with an absurd, improbable defence his jury was 10-2; if he'd said that the burglaries had driven him to exhaustion and he just flipped he'd probably have got more than two people give him the benefit of the doubt.


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## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fuck having a baseball bat


Yeah, You don't get much swing in a hallway.


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## maomao (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ignoring your 'ad hom' which adds nothing to your argument



Lol. That's not an ad hom. Boil your head you ignorant Tory shitcunt is an ad hom.


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## Grump (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Tony Martin situation was very different, he shot the guy in the back as he was running away, beyond what is considered 'reasonable force' in protecting himself, in the eyes of the law.


I prefer to go with what is considered reasonable in the eyes of the community rather than 'the law'.


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## bellaozzydog (Apr 4, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nicely dehumanised. A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary, a crime that is distressing as fuck for the victim and results in very little gain for the perpetrator. Rather than rail against a system which produces that, you go for the result of that system. Speakyerbranes75.net
> 
> 
> Corax’s racism and this. Place has gone to shit.



What a ridiculous position to hold. I can only presume your home where you and your family feel safest hasn't been burgled. It's a particularly personal crime that effects families negatively for a long time after the event.

Be upset about society but don't get on your high horse about visceral reactions/opinions on domestic burglars until you and your kids have come home to a trashed insecure house, your portable electronics and jewelry  have gone west and some toerag has shit on your living room floor


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## colacubes (Apr 4, 2018)

FFS. Of course they have to investigate and arrest him. The whole story in the media is mostly on the basis of the old fella’s account. Hopefully it’s true and he was just defending himself, in which case he’ll almost certainly get a minimal/no sentence, but nonetheless someone is dead. The dead bloke may be a wrong’un but let’s let other people decide that who have access to the actual evidence  78 year olds don’t get a pass on being investigated when someone dies.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

sealion said:


> Yeah, You don't get much swing in a hallway.



Well, you've seen my hallway, it's wider than the average, but yeah the fire extinguisher beside the inner front door would still trump a bat IMO.


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## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well, you've seen my hallway, it's wider than the average, but yeah the fire extinguisher beside the inner front door would still trump a bat IMO.



You don’t swing it, you jab it blunt end into their face. Allegedly!


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## xenon (Apr 4, 2018)

Vintage Paw said:


> dailymail75.net



Oh come off it.

Celebrating the death of a burglar, let's talk generally. I'm not cool with that. But have fuck all sympathy for domestic burglars that come to harm carrying out their crimes.


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## Wilf (Apr 4, 2018)

Needless to say, I know no details at all, but... given that we appear to be talking about 2 younger blokes, one of whom seemed to be armed, I'd struggle to think of any scenario under which the old guy gets charged (given the imbalance of strength/mobility). Just about the only scenario is if he dived in as they were on their way out of the door.  That's not sub-judice stuff, I just can't of any likely scenario in such a case.


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## xenon (Apr 4, 2018)

Oh god. please not the hardman weapon talk though. 

Sad.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> your kids


so apparently anything involving them justifies going Full Neeson, no matter what. I've seen the films


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## Wilf (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> Be upset about society but don't get on your high horse about visceral reactions/opinions on domestic burglars until you and your kids have come home to a trashed insecure house, your portable electronics and jewelry  have gone west and some toerag has shit on your living room floor


Burglars don't always shit on your floor you know.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> so apparently anything involving them justifies going Full Neeson, no matter what. I've seen the films


Hahaha to be fair we are talking about stumbling upon strange men in yer hoose with little time to ask what it is they plan to do. Me on my own with MUH KID, well in all honesty I would probably freeze but I'd like to think full Neeson! I wish!


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## bellaozzydog (Apr 4, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Burglars don't always shit on your floor you know.



It's a well known and documented phenomena. I've been burgled twice and on one occasion who ever did it had the decency to just piss on my kitchen lino 

This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense 

Slam your bedroom door and call the police.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> so apparently anything involving them justifies going Full Neeson, no matter what. I've seen the films


Or just some tricks with that wooden sort of mallet my mum had under her mattress that type of thing


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> It's a well known and documented phenomena. I've been burgled twice and on one occasion who ever did it had the decency to just piss on my kitchen lino
> 
> This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense
> 
> Slam your bedroom door and call the police.


 MULTI PHONE PRIVILEGE


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense
> 
> Slam your bedroom door and call the police.


Bollocks to that. Ever called the police in a hurry? I have, a couple of times, and once they couldn't find the address on a map FFS.

Make some noise and hope they fuck off out of the house once they know you're there, then if they don't, either escape by any means necessary or take them on. Blocking yourself in a room is, at best, for fires, not burglars.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> It's a well known and documented phenomena. I've been burgled twice and on one occasion who ever did it had the decency to just piss on my kitchen lino
> 
> This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense
> 
> Slam your bedroom door and call the police.



So, a burglar has broken into your home, and you think they are incapable of opening a bedroom door? 

No, sorry, I'll grab whatever is to hand to get them to fuck off.

BTW, no one has suggested beating a burglar to death with a blunt object, get over yourself.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, a burglar has broken into your home, and you think they are incapable of opening a bedroom door?
> 
> No, sorry, I'll grab whatever is to hand to get them to fuck off.
> 
> BTW, no one has suggested beating a burglar to death with a blunt object, get over yourself.



Don't be a dick. Burglars run away when disturbed. I'd rather be behind a door with the police on the phone rather than Rambo ing it around the house half asleep, barefooted and probably with a semi piss boner on while waving some badly planned weaponry


----------



## mauvais (Apr 4, 2018)

I've had cause to think about this at length, btw, but there are so many uncertainties and uncontrolled factors that honestly I have very little idea what I'd do if greeted with someone in the house. Contextual, reactive and inherently unplanned isn't it. I wouldn't rule out anything. However for me it's probably a different balance now to this time a year ago.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

If you really need an effective weapon by your bedside then a can of aerosol & a lighter is pretty impressive. I have lived in Brixton, King's Cross & Tottenham for about 25 years & whatever you keep under your bed does not stop a bullet. I live in leafy (soggy) Berkshire now but it could happen anywhere or not at all. Could you react to the threat or just shit yourself?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> Don't be a dick. Burglars run away when disturbed. I'd rather be behind a door with the police on the phone rather than Rambo ing it around the house half asleep, barefooted and probably with a semi piss boner on while waving some badly planned weaponry



You're being a dick, some burglars run away when disturbed, not all, hence why there's so many cases of people being beaten up in their own homes when disturbing burglars. 

Perhaps you would like to share you advice with the pensioner in my town, jut a couple of weeks ago, that was beaten black & blue by the burglars after her hidden cash. 

There was no hidden cash.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 4, 2018)

Except these tossers apprantly didn't usually unless its obviously ott you don't get punished for killing thieves in self defence.

this isnt the US where they will just shrugg and dragg the corpse away they will investigate


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 4, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Burglars don't always shit on your floor you know.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm all about the gun kata to get rid of burglars. You can also use it to get the dog to come in when you want to lock the back door and the cows out there digging again:


----------



## scifisam (Apr 4, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm all about the gun kata to get rid of burglars. You can also use it to get the dog to come in when you want to lock the back door and the cows out there digging again:




Tsk, gun fu, not gun kata.


----------



## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense


I can speak from experience and it's not when you have some cunt ransacking your flat. I'm not sure beating the burglar to death comes into thought. I wouldn't be as violent on the street but when someone has violated my home i will treat fire with fire. Fuck waiting for the old bill not to turn up.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's being discussed across the internet, it's already 11 pages over on digitalspy, so I reckon we are safe to discuss it on here.
> 
> Not that it will ever end-up in front of a jury, but if it did, I think the BBC is more likely to prejudice them by including the following in the article linked above...
> 
> ...


They have to. We really don't ever want to become the kind of society where Certain Kinds Of People can simply kill Certain Other Kinds of People with complete impunity. As you say, I imagine the police are dotting the i's and crossing the t's, to make sure this isn't anything other than Homeowner In Fear Of Life Stabs Burglar. But I do hope they're tipping him the wink along the way, and making it fairly clear to him that they're not really treating him as if he's the Third Kray Twin.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 4, 2018)

sealion said:


> I can speak from experience and it's not when you have some cunt ransacking your flat. I'm not sure beating the burglar to death comes into thought. I wouldn't be as violent on the street but when someone has violated my home i will treat fire with fire. Fuck waiting for the old bill not to turn up.



Yeah but unless some people on here _really_ have their priorities skewed I don't think anyone's posting while in the middle of being burgled.


----------



## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> Burglars run away when disturbed


That's why they go tooled up is it ? Then cunt that burgled me was up for fight and showed no fear.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So what? Burglars are vermin. They’d have my sympathy if they were desperate and did Tesco’s rather than where someone lives.


Yebbut, *why* are they "vermin"? I don't carry any flag for the burglar, but I can't help wondering whether it's possible that the shitness of the society we are rapidly becoming might well have had an influence on his chosen means of acquiring means.

Not that this remotely makes it acceptable for anyone to invade the home of an elderly man who was probably put in fear of his life, but when we've finished blaming, there needs to be some room for a little careful thought about how it might have come to this.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> Don't be a dick. Burglars run away when disturbed. I'd rather be behind a door with the police on the phone rather than Rambo ing it around the house half asleep, barefooted and probably with a semi piss boner on while waving some badly planned weaponry


Yeah no one has ever been attacked by strangers ever!


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> It's a well known and documented phenomena. I've been burgled twice and on one occasion who ever did it had the decency to just piss on my kitchen lino
> 
> This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense
> 
> Slam your bedroom door and call the police.


Er, maybe "shut your bedroom door vewy vewy quietly, and call the police"?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

> Not that this remotely makes it acceptable for anyone to invade the home of an elderly man who was probably put in fear of his life, but when we've finished blaming, there needs to be some room for a little careful thought about how it might have come to this.



We also need to consider whether this person who was burgled might have part of the Brinks Matt robbery or some other mistomena. There are a lot of old dodgy fuckers out there. 

He is probably an innocent old man who freaked out and defended himself but we do not know any of the facts yet so it is purely speculation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Yebbut, *why* are they "vermin". I don't carry any flag for the burglar, but I can't help wondering whether it's possible that the shitness of the society we are rapidly becoming might well have had an influence on his chosen means of acquiring means.
> 
> Not that this remotely makes it acceptable for anyone to invade the home of an elderly man who was probably put in fear of his life, but when we've finished blaming, there needs to be some room for a little careful thought about how it might have come to this.



Well I don’t know about you but I’m a communist. Of course capitalism will create the conditions for acquisition crime but you’re still a cunt if you choose to shit on the wc. I can’t see an avenue that leads me to a different position on that. 
But of course society needs changing. I’ve never argued otherwise.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 4, 2018)

Grump said:


> I prefer to go with what is considered reasonable in the eyes of the community rather than 'the law'.


you mean you'd rather trust a dozen ordinary people than a jury?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well I don’t know about you but I’m a communist. Of course capitalism will create the conditions for acquisition crime but you’re still a cunt if you choose to shit on the wc. I can’t see an avenue that leads me to a different position on that.
> But of course society needs changing. I’ve never argued otherwise.


I'm not an anythingist, really, so it's not so much for me about shitting on any class of person as not shitting on people in general.

Crimes like burglary rely on an imbalance of power, whatever class the victim and perpetrator are. In this case, it looks very much as if that imbalance of power shifted unexpectedly, and I applaud that as much as I decry the circumstances (whatever they might have been) that led someone to consider that breaking into anyone's home to steal is an acceptable way to behave.

Anyway, whatever happens, I don't imagine that the homeowner will ever have to buy himself a pint ever again.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 4, 2018)

This bloke, he's that old that his age will affect any decision to charge him or not surely?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> This bloke, he's that old that his age will affect any decision to charge him or not surely?


As I understand it, the only criterion for a defence of killing in self-defence is that you are genuinely in fear for your safety. I think that's a lot easier to demonstrate when you're a 78-year-old with a disabled wife than if you're, say, a stroppy 54-year-old with an online history of claiming to have done a bit of karate (to take but one completely unrelated example *cough* )

ETA: Oh, OK, it's one of several factors. Self-defence in English law - Wikipedia


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 4, 2018)

are there a lot of burglars on urban?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I'm not an anythingist, really, so it's not so much for me about shitting on any class of person as not shitting on people in general.
> 
> Crimes like burglary rely on an imbalance of power, whatever class the victim and perpetrator are. In this case, it looks very much as if that imbalance of power shifted unexpectedly, and I applaud that as much as I decry the circumstances (whatever they might have been) that led someone to consider that breaking into anyone's home to steal is an acceptable way to behave.
> 
> Anyway, whatever happens, I don't imagine that the homeowner will ever have to buy himself a pint ever again.


I don't think the fact it was a burglary has been proved yet. But Heho let us condemn the dead person as a burglar because the person who killed him said so.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> I don't think the fact it was a burglary has been proved yet. But Heho let us condemn the dead person as a burglar because the person who killed him said so.


Fair point. That was a rather naive assumption on my part. Although I imagine it's going to be his word for it, given that the party allegedly brandishing a screwdriver (regardless of what he was there for, but we can reasonably assume he wasn't there to fix the boiler) isn't in any position to offer an alternative version of events.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> are there a lot of burglars on urban?



No comment. 

 




existentialist said:


> As I understand it, the only criterion for a defence of killing in self-defence is that you are genuinely in fear for your safety. I think that's a lot easier to demonstrate when you're a 78-year-old with a disabled wife than if you're, say, a stroppy 54-year-old with an online history of claiming to have done a bit of karate (to take but one completely unrelated example *cough* )



I wasn't digging out the old boy for doing, fair play to him and if it's gone down as reported then jobs a good 'un. I would worry though that he's made a target for the scrotes mates.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> As I understand it, the only criterion for a defence of killing in self-defence is that you are genuinely in fear for your safety. I think that's a lot easier to demonstrate when you're a 78-year-old with a disabled wife than if you're, say, a stroppy 54-year-old with an online history of claiming to have done a bit of karate (to take but one completely unrelated example *cough* )
> 
> ETA: Oh, OK, it's one of several factors. Self-defence in English law - Wikipedia


You are allowed to use reasonable force. In the Tony Martin case, shooting a child in the back, who was running away, was not seen a reasonable force.


----------



## T & P (Apr 4, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> One would certainly hope not.
> 
> Reasonable force bollocks. If someone breaks into your home, whatever they get they deserve.
> 
> No doubt scoped that one out, old guy with a disabled wife, no problem. Wrong!


 Interesting. No exceptions at all? Not suggesting this is what happened here of course, but in the hypothetical case of a homeowner who confronts a knife-wielding burglar and manages to knock him out with a baseball bat to the head, you’re saying that if CCTV footage showed the homeowner calmly proceeding to bash the now unconscious burglar laying on the floor repeatedly on the head until it exploded like a watermelon, you’d be happy to clear the homeowner of any wrongdoing?

Again, purely hypocritical case and no suggestion anything like that happened here, but I got the impression from your post you would de facto support the death penalty for burglary, and judged and administered by members of the public to boot.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> I don't think the fact it was a burglary has been proved yet. But Heho let us condemn the dead person as a burglar because the person who killed him said so.


Oh leave it out, ffs. It's being reported as a burglary gone wrong and there's an extremely high likelihood that what's happened is exactly what everyone thinks has happened. As far as 'condemning the dead person as a burglar' is concerned, people can change their minds if that turns out not to be the case and no harm will have been done by anyone posting on this insignificant corner of the internet.

This place is so up it's arse sometimes.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> You are allowed to use reasonable force. In the Tony Martin case, shooting a child in the back, who was running away, was not seen a reasonable force.



The Tony Martin case. 

I am fucking sure that the coverage of that had a racist element to it given the burglars were part of the Traveller community. I certainly remember people (as in people that consume the news as opposed to put it out there) treating the dead kid as less than human because of it.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Fair point. That was a rather naive assumption on my part. Although I imagine it's going to be his word for it, given that the party allegedly brandishing a screwdriver (regardless of what he was there for, but we can reasonably assume he wasn't there to fix the boiler) isn't in any position to offer an alternative version of events.


So the screwdriver has been taken as evidence? I hope you never sit on a jury that if you presume that it was reported that a screwdriver was allegedly brandished by the deceased is enough to convict without the said screwdriver being produced. The facts are very thin on the ground at this point & I really think it it dodgy to jump to conclusions just because the victim was 78. 
The reporting is awful & if anything could lead to the perpetrator getting off for not getting a fair trial. All we know bout this case is what has been reported to the press & the outrage that a 78 year old has been killed in his home. If it turns out he was himself a dodgy person or a nonce would you change your view?


----------



## JimW (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> are there a lot of burglars on urban?


Only oxygen thieves


----------



## sealion (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> All we know bout this case is what has been reported to the press & the outrage that a 78 year old has been killed in his home.


What papers are you reading ?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 4, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm all about the gun kata to get rid of burglars. You can also use it to get the dog to come in when you want to lock the back door and the cows out there digging again:



Come on, all the macho bollocks is hammers and baseball bats.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

sealion said:


> What papers are you reading ?


Not papers but the MSM


----------



## Gromit (Apr 4, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> are there a lot of burglars on urban?


From the way some are defending the burglars it makes you wonder. 

Painting all burglars as down trodden by society. 
As much as some (I'll even grant the tag many) may fit that bracket there are also also plenty that don't. Doing over houses purely from greed or suffering from a self entitled right to make an easy living off of others.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> The reporting is awful & if anything could lead to the perpetrator getting off for not getting a fair trial.


Really? 

Has this _ever_ happened in the UK in relation to shit posted on an internet forum?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Oh leave it out, ffs. It's being reported as a burglary gone wrong and there's an extremely high likelihood that what's happened is exactly what everyone thinks has happened. As far as 'condemning the dead person as a burglar' is concerned, people can change their minds if that turns out not to be the case and no harm will have been done by anyone posting on this insignificant corner of the internet.
> 
> This place is so up it's arse sometimes.


So go back to my previous post where Oscar Pistorius killed a so called intruder. Is there not an element of doubt? Until the facts are established then I will keep an open mind. Do you have inside information or are you just going by the outraged press?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 4, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So the screwdriver has been taken as evidence? I hope you never sit on a jury that if you presume that it was reported that a screwdriver was allegedly brandished by the deceased is enough to convict without the said screwdriver being produced. The facts are very thin on the ground at this point & I really think it it dodgy to jump to conclusions just because the victim was 78.
> The reporting is awful & if anything could lead to the perpetrator getting off for not getting a fair trial. All we know bout this case is what has been reported to the press & the outrage that a 78 year old has been killed in his home. If it turns out he was himself a dodgy person or a nonce would you change your view?



Stop crying ffs. If it wasn’t a burglary gone wrong his accomplice wouldn’t have fucked off to leave his mate bleeding to death in the street.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Really?
> 
> Has this _ever_ happened in the UK in relation to shit posted on an internet forum?



Edited to add but it has with the shit posted in tabloids.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Stop crying ffs. If it wasn’t a burglary gone wrong his accomplice wouldn’t have fucked off to leave his mate bleeding to death in the street.



Nah, plenty of possible other explanations, though none of them are nearly as likely as it being a pair of burglars, one of whom died in about as justified a manner as you can get.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So go back to my previous post where Oscar Pistorius killed a so called intruder. Is there not an element of doubt? Until the facts are established then I will keep an open mind. Do you have inside information or are you just going by the outraged press?


I know what you do and my mind is no less open but I'll judge the facts as I see them and alter my opinion as they change. As it stands it looks like a scumbag tried to rob the wrong bloke and came second. If that's not what happened I will revise my opinion accordingly.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Stop crying ffs. If it wasn’t a burglary gone wrong his accomplice wouldn’t have fucked off to leave his mate bleeding to death in the street.


In the Tony Martin case his accomplice fucked off to leave him bleeding to death in a field.


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 5, 2018)

mauvais said:


> Bollocks to that. Ever called the police in a hurry?



When seconds count the police are just minutes away.

Anybody who comes in my house uninvited is getting 'five rounds rapid' and I'll take my chance in court.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I know what you do and my mind is no less open but I'll judge the facts as I see them and alter my opinion as they change. As it stands it looks like a scumbag tried to rob the wrong bloke and came second. If that's not what happened I will revise my opinion accordingly.


That would be fair play if you have had the facts. So far you have had what sounds best in the media.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> In the Tony Martin case his accomplice fucked off to leave him bleeding to death in a field.



As they say, no honour amongst thieves.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So the screwdriver has been taken as evidence? I hope you never sit on a jury that if you presume that it was reported that a screwdriver was allegedly brandished by the deceased is enough to convict without the said screwdriver being produced. The facts are very thin on the ground at this point & I really think it it dodgy to jump to conclusions just because the victim was 78.
> The reporting is awful & if anything could lead to the perpetrator getting off for not getting a fair trial. All we know bout this case is what has been reported to the press & the outrage that a 78 year old has been killed in his home. If it turns out he was himself a dodgy person or a nonce would you change your view?


I'm usually the first to dispute reporting. 

There are two unassailable facts. 

A 75 year old man (with a disabled wife) has killed someome.
That someone was a 34 year old man.

It's not unreasonable to assume from these two facts that a self defence killing has taken place. 

As much as we can come up with all sorts of senarios this one is the most likely.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> That would be fair play if you have had the facts. So far you have had what sounds best in the media.


 

This post doesn’t seem to relate to the one which it quotes.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

Just heard on the midnight news that the 78 year old is still being held. If it was a straightforward case of self defence I doubt he would still in custody. Maybe, I don't know & coincidentally nor do you.

Do you ?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Just heard on the midnight news that the 78 year old is still being held. If it was a straightforward case of self defence I doubt he would still in custody. Maybe, I don't know & coincidentally nor do you.
> 
> Do you ?


I haven’t a clue. What’s your point?


----------



## sealion (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Just heard on the midnight news that the 78 year old is still being held. If it was a straightforward case of self defence I doubt he would still in custody. Maybe, I don't know & coincidentally nor do you.
> 
> Do you ?


They keep shoplifters and petty thieves for 10 plus hours. The process of going through custody let alone being interviwed can take hours.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

I'd have thought an overnighter or two would probably be the least you could expect having just killed someone.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

Gromit said:


> I'm usually the first to dispute reporting.
> 
> There are two unassailable facts.
> 
> ...


Is it a good thing that the current justice doesn't work on the most likely principle? 

How about an abusive grandchild goes round & winds up his grandpa who does him with the carving knife? Could be absolute bollocks but I will keep an open mind.  This shit happens & dodgy criminals are getting older.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> How about an abusive grandchild goes round & winds up his grandpa who does him with the carving knife? Could be absolute bollocks but I will keep an open mind.


Tell you what, Ski, if it turns out that something like this has happened, or indeed any scenario other than 'old man kills burglar', everyone here will say "oh, well that's a bit of a turn-up innit?" but YOU can say "well I was keeping an open mind anyway" whilst sagely tapping the side of your nose with an index finger.

I shall congratulate you heartily!


----------



## sealion (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Is it a good thing that the current justice doesn't work on the most likely principle?
> 
> How about an abusive grandchild goes round & winds up his grandpa who does him with the carving knife? Could be absolute bollocks but I will keep an open mind.  This shit happens & dodgy criminals are getting older.


Slighly different than facing two burglars.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 5, 2018)

On a side note, Hither Green is just Lewisham with pretensions.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 5, 2018)

Also...



> Neighbours say there have been quite a few burglaries in this area recently - this is a relatively well-off part of south east-London with streets of semi-detached houses.



You live in fucking Lewisham, call if Hither Green Village all you want, it's just the bit down the railway tracks that has fuck all there.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

sealion said:


> Slighly different than facing two burglars.


As is reported. We know nothing about this case till it comes out in the courts. So far we have been told 78 year old man stabbed a man who was supposedly one of two intruders intent on burglary. This has not been confirmed but we will take the BBC outrage on it as gospel? 

We don't know what has happened but only what has been reported. It is not always correct. I am not saying it didn't happen as they say but at this stage it is worth keeping an open mind.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

Gromit said:


> I'm usually the first to dispute reporting.
> 
> There are two unassailable facts.
> 
> ...


Most likely? Is that how you want a justice system to work? I think it is unreasonable to presume anything. Haven't you watched " Murder She Wrote"


----------



## sealion (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> it is worth keeping an open mind.


Yes i think you should.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Most likely? Is that how you want a justice system to work? I think it is unreasonable to presume anything. Haven't you watched " Murder She Wrote"


I reckon you should keep an open mind on this, MrSki.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Lol!


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

I will keep an open mind till Angela Lansbury tells me not to or I hear the facts & not just the sensationalist reporting.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

sealion said:


> Yes i think you should.


He comes on here, jumping to conclusions left, right and centre. Haven't you heard of "innocent until proven guilty", MrSki ???


----------



## sealion (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> He comes on here, jumping to conclusions left, right and centre. Haven't you heard of "innocent until proven guilty", MrSki ???


He's clearly on a wind up or looking for a barney.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> He comes on here, jumping to conclusions left, right and centre. Haven't you heard of "innocent until proven guilty", MrSki ???


I have heard of it but whistling in the winds.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2018)

sealion said:


> Slighly different than facing two burglars.


So you have absolute proof there were two burglars or are you going by the killer's story?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

You're taking the piss now.


----------



## Grump (Apr 5, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> you mean you'd rather trust a dozen ordinary people than a jury?


The last time I checked a jury was comprised of a dozen ordinary people. However they are put in a position of being part of a legal framework where they are constrained as to decisions they might make. It becomes about law, not what is morally correct.


----------



## Smangus (Apr 5, 2018)

YouSir said:


> On a side note, Hither Green is just Lewisham with pretensions.



More like Catford really this part.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 5, 2018)

its going to take the police at least 24 hours to clear this even if it is burglar gets stabbed.
 tony martin had his legal shotgun taken off him after shooting at "trespassers" and being more than willing to kill burglars having stated so publicly.
 although he had been burgled several times and police response was less than amazing.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

likesfish said:


> its going to take the police at least 24 hours to clear this even if it is burglar gets stabbed.



Fair enough but why can’t the 78 year old go home while the dibble complete their ‘enquiries’ (and maybe even find the other burglar while they are at it). It’s not like he’s going to abscond is it


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Fair enough but why can’t the 78 year old go home while the dibble complete their ‘enquiries’ (and maybe even find the other burglar while they are at it).


Because he might be a murderer.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Because he might be a murderer.



And if he is they can charge him once they have completed their ‘investigation’. My point is a 78 year old bloke with a wife with dementia isn’t going on the run.


----------



## joustmaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Theres not enough talk about the picture the news are using.
Double fisting  two pints of guinness. 
Strong.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And if he is they can charge him once they have completed their ‘investigation’. My point is a 78 year old bloke with a wife with dementia isn’t going on the run.



“He might be a violent killer, sarge, but he’s 78 so I’ve let him back into the community whilst we find out. We can always pick him up later if he’s a proper wrongun”.

What if he kills someone else?


----------



## Gromit (Apr 5, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Most likely? Is that how you want a justice system to work? I think it is unreasonable to presume anything. Haven't you watched " Murder She Wrote"


Urban is a justice system now?

All I'm doing is establishing on what grounds we are holding internet debate opinions. 

If a justice system or even football system was run on those principles it would of course be fucked. But we aren't burdened with that responsibility yet.

If you want to wait until ALL the facts are available before you tender an opinion then off you fuck, see you back here in a couple of months.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

This link has popped-up elsewhere, a High Court ruling from 2 yeas ago, which is worth reading.



> Householders can use a disproportionate level of force against an intruder in their homes if they reasonably believe it is necessary, the high court has ruled.
> ---
> While the judges stressed that their decision did not give people “carte blanche” to use any degree of force to protect themselves, they said that force was not necessarily unreasonable and unlawful “simply because it is disproportionate – unless it is grossly disproportionate”.



Householders can use 'disproportionate' level of force against intruders


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What if he kills someone else?



Given his MO that can be discounted unless someone else breaks into his house with a screwdriver.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given his MO that can be discounted unless someone else breaks into his house with a screwdriver.


Without wishing to sound too much like MrSki , how do you know that’s his MO? Can you be 100% certain that he didn’t entice the dead bloke around and stab him for another reason? At the moment it’s his word against a dead chap’s.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Without wishing to sound too much like MrSki , how do you know that’s his MO? Can you be 100% certain that he didn’t entice the dead bloke around and stab him for another reason? At the moment it’s his word against a dead chap’s.



I wonder why he chose to entice him at 3am and why they all weren’t tucked up in bed.
Or why his mate scarpered instead of waiting to give his side of the tale to the cops.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder why he chose to entice him at 3am and why they all weren’t tucked up in bed.
> Or why his mate scarpered instead of waiting to give his side of the tale to the cops.



It was actually around mid-night, the guy died later, at around 3am.



> At 00:45hrs on Wednesday, 4 April, police were called by a homeowner to reports of a burglary in progress at an address in South Park Crescent, Hither Green SE6, and a man injured.



Investigation launched after man dies following suspected burglary


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder why he chose to entice him at 3am and why they all weren’t tucked up in bed.
> Or why his mate scarpered instead of waiting to give his side of the tale to the cops.


The most likely explanation is that he killed a burglar but if the cops can't be absolutely sure of that how can they possibly release him? The guy has just stabbed someone to death. They need to be convinced that he's not a stabby scrote himself who's lost the pllot and will go home and stab his wife or someone else. Or perhaps there's something else. Maybe the dead guy was stabbed 30 times, maybe something else ...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> The most likely explanation is that he killed a burglar but if the cops can't be absolutely sure of that how can they possibly release him? The guy has just stabbed someone to death. They need to be convinced that he's not a stabby scrote himself who's lost the pllot and will go home and stab his wife or someone else. Or perhaps there's something else. Maybe the dead guy was stabbed 30 times, maybe something else ...



Yes they must be cautious. Like that time I got held overnight and had my DNA swabbed for being a bit tipsy.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder why he chose to entice him at 3am and why they all weren’t tucked up in bed.
> Or why his mate scarpered instead of waiting to give his side of the tale to the cops.


The thing is, we can wonder all we like. But a criminal investigation cannot be based on "wondering". They have to do things in a certain way, and avoid any of the kind of assumptions we're completely at liberty to make.

This, I think, is a good example of why the tendency of (particularly) the press to regard someone under investigation as almost tried, convicted and hanged, even if they can't actually say that, is a problem. It's completely right that someone who has killed (or just seriously injured) someone else needs to be the subject of an investigation to determine how that came about. One hopes that the police are able to do these things with a degree of sensitivity, but at the same time it really does have to be done.

It's the same with sudden deaths due to other causes (including suicide). Those close to the deceased often find the police investigation, short as it often is, into the death hugely traumatic and upsetting, but there really isn't any way around it - if someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly, it's not for the police to say "oh, look, it must be suicide/heart attack/etc, let's not bother", because people *do* get murdered and have it made to look like suicide, so to do that would be to make it that much easier to kill someone just by making it look like something else. Personally, I'd not be all that happy with that idea.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes they must be cautious. Like that time I got held overnight and had my DNA swabbed for being a bit tipsy.


Yep. Just like that.


----------



## seeformiles (Apr 5, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm all about the gun kata to get rid of burglars. You can also use it to get the dog to come in when you want to lock the back door and the cows out there digging again:




Ooo - really want to see this now!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> The thing is, we can wonder all we like. But a criminal investigation cannot be based on "wondering". They have to do things in a certain way, and avoid any of the kind of assumptions we're completely at liberty to make.
> 
> This, I think, is a good example of why the tendency of (particularly) the press to regard someone under investigation as almost tried, convicted and hanged, even if they can't actually say that, is a problem. It's completely right that someone who has killed (or just seriously injured) someone else needs to be the subject of an investigation to determine how that came about. One hopes that the police are able to do these things with a degree of sensitivity, but at the same time it really does have to be done.
> 
> It's the same with sudden deaths due to other causes (including suicide). Those close to the deceased often find the police investigation, short as it often is, into the death hugely traumatic and upsetting, but there really isn't any way around it - if someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly, it's not for the police to say "oh, look, it must be suicide/heart attack/etc, let's not bother", because people *do* get murdered and have it made to look like suicide, so to do that would be to make it that much easier to kill someone just by making it look like something else. Personally, I'd not be all that happy with that idea.



Is anyone saying it shouldn’t be investigated? What a bizarre strawman.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes they must be cautious. Like that time I got held overnight and had my DNA swabbed for being a bit tipsy.


drunk and disorderly or drunk and incapable?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

A few years old, but this article covers 3 cases of burglars being killed by householders in Manchester, in each case they were arrested, but the CPS decided they wouldn't face charges. So, what is happening is the norm.

In the clear: Bramhall homeowner who stabbed intruder to death acted in 'reasonable self defence'


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is anyone saying it shouldn’t be investigated? What a bizarre strawman.


He was responding to your post which seemed supportive of another which said he should be released.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> drunk and disorderly or drunk and incapable?



‘Disorderly’. Of course it’s entirely at their discretion what that means.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> He was responding to your post which seemed supportive of another which said he should be released.



Not holding someone overnight doesn’t mean it can’t be investigated.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> A few years old, but this article covers 3 cases of burglars being killed by householders in Manchester, in each case they were arrested, but the CPS decided they wouldn't face charges. So, what is happening is the norm.
> 
> In the clear: Bramhall homeowner who stabbed intruder to death acted in 'reasonable self defence'


Of course you're going to be arrested if you kill someone!

Does anybody really think that the plod walk in, take a statement, take the body away and let you to get back to sleep?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not holding someone overnight doesn’t mean it can’t be investigated.


Eh?


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> When seconds count the police are just minutes away.
> 
> Anybody who comes in my house uninvited is getting 'five rounds rapid' and I'll take my chance in court.



The full Pistorius?  Lets hope it's not next door's kid climbing through an open window to get his ball back.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Eh?



Existentialist made out I was saying it shouldn’t be investigated. When I pointed out nobody had said that you pointed to a position (of him being released) equating to that. It doesn’t.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> The full Pistorius?  Lets hope it's not next door's kid climbing through an open window to get his ball back.


not pistorius, boxing







followed by a points decision


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

A 78 year old getting the better of someone under 40 is quite something in itself.  I don't know, assuming no charges are brought, I wonder how safe the guy will now feel in his own home?  Retribution being what it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Of course you're going to be arrested if you kill someone!


how many cops were arrested for killing mark saunders or smiley culture?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> A 78 year old getting the better of someone under 40 is quite something in itself.  I don't know, assuming no charges are brought, I wonder how safe the guy will now feel in his own home?  Retribution being what it is.


pretty safe now people will think twice about taking him on


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Of course you're going to be arrested if you kill someone!
> 
> Does anybody really think that the plod walk in, take a statement, take the body away and leave you to go back to sleep?



I doubt it, but some seem to think a 'killer' should be released before the investigation has got to the point where the police are satisfied they have enough reason to do so.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> not pistorius, boxing
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ahh, that sort of 5 rounds.  Will there be an Italian ref to step in and ruin the whole bloody thing every time something looks to be happening?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> A 78 year old getting the better of someone under 40 is quite something in itself.  I don't know, assuming no charges are brought, I wonder how safe the guy will now feel in his own home?  Retribution being what it is.



For sure he’s got a lot of hassle on his plate including being arrested and perhaps wanting to move house when he should be enjoying his retirement.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Does anybody really think that the plod walk in, take a statement, take the body away and leave you to go back to sleep?



They do when its another copper


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Existentialist made out I was saying it shouldn’t be investigated. When I pointed out nobody had said that you pointed to a position (of him being released) equating to that. It doesn’t.


Whaaaaaaaaaat?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> A 78 year old getting the better of someone under 40 is quite something in itself.  I don't know, assuming no charges are brought, I wonder how safe the guy will now feel in his own home?  Retribution being what it is.



Yeah, I wondered that. When my Ma got burgled she didn't feel safe at home any more, and said it didn;t feel like her home anymore, and eventually got a move to another estate. People sometimes overlook the ongoing impact on victims - especially older ones.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I doubt it, but some seem to think a 'killer' should be released before the investigation has got to the point where the police are satisfied they have enough reason to do so.



That's exactly my point. What more information do they need? A statement from the other burglar?

Self defence is no offence.


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> The full Pistorius?  Lets hope it's not next door's kid climbing through an open window to get his ball back.



More like the full Lethbridge-Stewart.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Whaaaaaaaaaat?



Never mind.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That's exactly my point. What more information do they need? A statement from the other burglar?
> 
> Self defence is no offence.


 Come back MrSki , all is forgiven.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Come back MrSki , all is forgiven.



At he was being all post-modern and ironic about his concerns for the process. You actually seem to _believe_ the police are objective.

Charge or release.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)




----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Oh well blow me down and lookie here. He's been bailed. How surprising. I'd never have expected that to happen. Fucking OB are wankers and tosspots.

 <insert more silly acab shit ... etc etc>

'Burglar' murder probe suspect bailed


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That's exactly my point. What more information do they need? A statement from the other burglar?
> 
> Self defence is no offence.



They have to complete their investigation and prepare a file for consideration by senior officers and/or CPS for a decision regarding bail, all this takes time.

ETA: OK, just seen spy's post, hardly surprising.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking OB are wankers and tosspots.


glad to see you're on message, pa


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> More like the full Lethbridge-Stewart.
> 
> View attachment 131922


that's not lethbridge-stewart, that's nigel mansell


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Oh well blow me down and lookie here. He's been bailed. How surprising. I'd never have expected that to happen. Fucking OB are wankers and tosspots.
> 
> <insert more silly acab shit ... etc etc>
> 
> 'Burglar' murder probe suspect bailed





Great photo of him the press are using btw.  If I ever get arrested again I'd love them to use a photo like that, unless it was drink driving I guess.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

discord in the police ranks as it turns out there are no pies left for the pcsos.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Oh well blow me down and lookie here. He's been bailed. How surprising. I'd never have expected that to happen. Fucking OB are wankers and tosspots.
> 
> <insert more silly acab shit ... etc etc>
> 
> 'Burglar' murder probe suspect bailed



But he could be a murderer....

He could go home and murder his wife who he's been caring for for years.... 

If another poor victim of 'the cuts' attempts to rob his home and is tooled up who will guarantee the poor mites safe passage...


----------



## LDC (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Great photo of him the press are using btw.  If I ever get arrested again I'd love them to use a photo like that, unless it was drink driving I guess.



Bet the cop in the forensic suit in the photo further down is less impressed with his picture, I think he'll forever be known as PC Teletubby in the station.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But he could be a murderer....
> 
> He could go home and murder his wife who he's been caring for for years....
> 
> If another poor victim of 'the cuts' attempts to rob his home and is tooled up who will guarantee the poor mites safe passage...


not sure it's right to use the phrase a 'victim of the cuts' atm. another phrase might have been more seemly.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But he could be a murderer....
> 
> He could go home and murder his wife who he's been caring for for years....
> 
> If another poor victim of 'the cuts' attempts to rob his home and is tooled up who will guarantee the poor mites safe passage...


What the fuck are you banging on about now? I get the feeling that you're about to make an argument that would make some of the other stuff on this thread seem sane.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What the fuck are you banging on about now? I get the feeling that you're about to make an argument that would make one some of the other stuff on this thread seem sane.


one some? want some? wun tun?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is anyone saying it shouldn’t be investigated? What a bizarre strawman.


Quite a few people seem to be taking exception to the way in which the police are dealing with the householder.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Existentialist made out I was saying it shouldn’t be investigated. When I pointed out nobody had said that you pointed to a position (of him being released) equating to that. It doesn’t.


No, he didn't. You took that interpretation, all by yourself.


----------



## LDC (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Quite a few people seem to be taking exception to the way in which the police are dealing with the householder.



Quite a few people on here better hope they're never in the same position...

"So, Mr. U75, can you explain why 3 years previous to this incident you were boasting on the internet about how anyone you find in your house is going to be beaten to death with **insert heavy implement of your choice here*** please?"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Quite a few people on here better hope they're never in the same position...
> 
> "So, Mr. U75, can you explain why 3 years previous to this incident you were boasting on the internet about how anyone you find in your house is going to be beaten to death with **insert heavy implement of your choice here*** please?"


might be worse,  might be 'so mr u75, please can you explain why we found the burglar dead with a heavy implement inserted in his fundament'


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> No, he didn't. You took that interpretation, all by yourself.



What did he mean then if my ‘interpretation’ is incorrect?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Quite a few people seem to be taking exception to the way in which the police are dealing with the householder.


It's only Magnus and S&S not getting their heads round that one, tbf.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Quite a few people on here better hope they're never in the same position...
> 
> "So, Mr. U75, can you explain why 3 years previous to this incident you were boasting on the internet about how anyone you find in your house is going to be beaten to death with **insert heavy implement of your choice here*** please?"



I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone boasting about beating anyone to death, only that they would take action to defend themselves and/or family, which is well within the law.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 5, 2018)

I could have mapped out the ebb and flow rituals of this thread without having read anything other than the title.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 5, 2018)

Smangus said:


> This happened around the corner from me , I saw the police tape this morning on the way to work and wondered what it was about. There has been a spate of burglaries around here lately, one 2 doors away from me.


Hither Green is basically the main residential bit of Lewisham (town as opposed to borough). I nearly moved in to that area a couple of years back...really considered it, then on a third visit i saw little tatty bits of police tape on the next door lamp post....thought id ask someone what it was like around for crime..came up to a woman sitting in her car smoking a spliff - her advice, stay away, she'd move if she could, started motioning to dealers holed up in that house over there, nutters in that house there... in short its a stressful place to live with constant agro. This is where some young kids pulled a gun on a policeman the other day.

If you wake up with armed men in your house - especially in Hither Green - your instinct will be that you could be killed and who knows how any of us would react under that circumstance.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What did he mean then if my ‘interpretation’ is incorrect?


I dunno. I am not party to what goes on inside your head. Nor anyone else's for that matter. Sometimes, not even mine.

Anyway, I'm not really up for some pointless spat about the nuances of what someone-or-other might have meant, so let's leave it there, eh?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 5, 2018)

its a funny one hither green. My mate was lamped  and knocked out with a cosh late one night by a couple taking their dog for a walk. he clams he may have bumped into them i.e. he was fucking leathered  and all over the place, but does seem a bit OTT to be carrying weaponry when you are out with your dog.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I dunno. I am not party to what goes on inside your head. Nor anyone else's for that matter. Sometimes, not even mine.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not really up for some pointless spat about the nuances of what someone-or-other might have meant, so let's leave it there, eh?


what's the point of posting on urban if you're not up for some pointless spat


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> what's the point of posting on urban if you're not up for some pointless spat


It makes it more of a challenge


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> It makes it more of a challenge


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I dunno. I am not party to what goes on inside your head. Nor anyone else's for that matter. Sometimes, not even mine.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not really up for some pointless spat about the nuances of what someone-or-other might have meant, so let's leave it there, eh?



So you were quick to tell me I was wrong but now you’re getting coy about explaining why? 
Which I expected would happen hence my enquiry.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 5, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I could have mapped out the ebb and flow rituals of this thread without having read anything other than the title.


Could have been variations though, what if the burglars disturbed the bloke having a (very late) Full English Breakfast?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you were quick to tell me I was wrong but now you’re getting coy about explaining why?
> Which I expected would happen hence my enquiry.


You're just confusing yourself (and everyone else) now!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You're just confusing yourself (and everyone else) now!



Apparently this:



existentialist said:


> No, he didn't. You took that interpretation, all by yourself.



Says I was wrong. And he reached that conclusion by having ‘no interest’ in what you meant.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Says I was wrong. And he reached that conclusion by having ‘no interest’ in what you meant.


I think he's just lost interest in unpicking it all. We've kind of lost the moment.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I think he's just lost interest in unpicking it all. We've kind of lost the moment.



Conveniently.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Conveniently.


Probably. I haven't got a scooby what you're talking about either though, tbf


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2018)

Released on bail.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Probably. I haven't got a scooby what you're talking about either though, tbf



Strange to have not ‘unpicked it’ prior to announcing I was wrong. Cart before the horses there.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Strange to have not ‘unpicked it’ prior to announcing I was wrong. Cart before the horses there.


Aye. Poor coachmanship.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 5, 2018)

In all seriousness, the whole thing is really horrible. The burglar's family have lost their son/partner/dad (delete as appropriate) and the pensioner will be so traumatised that he may not be able to carry on looking after his wife. Rights and wrongs aside, that's all pretty shitty.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nicely dehumanised. A 38 year old man, reduced to residential burglary, a crime that is distressing as fuck for the victim and results in very little gain for the perpetrator. Rather than rail against a system which produces that, you go for the result of that system. Speakyerbranes75.net



'Hello, is this the system? I'd like to report that there are two armed villains in my kitchen who represent an immediate threat of violence against myself and my vulnerable, elderly wife. Whilst I do not consider the villains to be acting in a just manner, I recognise their right to hold differing ethical standards to my own. I also recognise that you in your capacity as embodiment of all prevailing social, economic and political processes hold sole and total responsibility for this situation, and that it would therefore be unjust of me to act in such a way as to imply that the aforesaid villains held any legal or moral culpability for their actions. That being said I consider the current situation untenable, as it represents a violation of the property rights and right to freedom from violence upon which you are ostensibly predicated. Do you provide a conflict resolution service? Yes, I'll hold...'


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 5, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Come on, all the macho bollocks is hammers and baseball bats.




Blimey, all I could think of watching that was a box of eggs dropping on the floor/tapping a large soft boiled egg very hard with a large spoon


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you were quick to tell me I was wrong but now you’re getting coy about explaining why?
> Which I expected would happen hence my enquiry.


Oh, do fuck off. I think you're choosing to look down the wrong end of the telescope at what I wrote, and determined to find some point of disagreement, when it should be pretty obvious from the tenor of our earlier interaction on the thread that I'm pretty much on the same page as you. And it's a pattern I notice in your postings quite often. So don't mind me if I really can't be bothered to get into some futile pissing contest with you, just because you want a fucking argument.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Hither Green is basically the main residential bit of Lewisham (town as opposed to borough). I nearly moved in to that area a couple of years back...really considered it, then on a third visit i saw little tatty bits of police tape on the next door lamp post....thought id ask someone what it was like around for crime..came up to a woman sitting in her car smoking a spliff - her advice, stay away, she'd move if she could, started motioning to dealers holed up in that house over there, nutters in that house there... in short its a stressful place to live with constant agro. This is where some young kids pulled a gun on a policeman the other day.
> 
> If you wake up with armed men in your house - especially in Hither Green - your instinct will be that you could be killed and who knows how any of us would react under that circumstance.


It is weird around there, looks a bit sleepy but isn't
I lived on the south circ in that area and didn't feel safe on the road(s) by the station and saw a bit of aggro now and then


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Oh, do fuck off. I think you're choosing to look down the wrong end of the telescope at what I wrote, and determined to find some point of disagreement, when it should be pretty obvious from the tenor of our earlier interaction on the thread that I'm pretty much on the same page as you. And it's a pattern I notice in your postings quite often. So don't mind me if I really can't be bothered to get into some futile pissing contest with you, just because you want a fucking argument.



I’ve lost interest too but it’s often courteous, when telling someone they’re wrong, to offer your own take as to why. Never mind.


----------



## Poi E (Apr 5, 2018)

Anyway, when can I get tooled up? Nothing automatic, just a handgun will do. My wife is partial to a 9mm. Would make a lovely anniversary present for her.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

Poi E said:


> Anyway, when can I get tooled up? Nothing automatic, just a handgun will do. My wife is partial to a 9mm. Would make a lovely anniversary present for her.



I think handguns are bit dodgy for the budding domestic security enforcer.  They're all a bit illegal and stuff also having obvious weapons near your bed as well.  The pro household defending hardman has weapons lying around which could conceivably used for every day stuff.  Hence there being over 18 million baseball bats in the country yet only 7 people who actually play the 'sport'.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 5, 2018)

They will have to take my steak tenderising hammer from my cold dead hands


----------



## Wilf (Apr 5, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> They will have to take my steak tenderising hammer from my cold dead hands


In the hands of a trained killer, any domestic implement can be used as a deadly weapon - biro, scrabble tile, post it note. I'm not saying_ I am_ that trained assassin, The Guild insists on secrecy. But, y'know, just think on.


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Great photo of him the press are using btw.  If I ever get arrested again I'd love them to use a photo like that, unless it was drink driving I guess.


Heavy Drinkers Against Burglars will hold a press conference shortly.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I think handguns are bit dodgy for the budding domestic security enforcer.  They're all a bit illegal and stuff also having obvious weapons near your bed as well.  The pro household defending hardman has weapons lying around which could conceivably used for every day stuff.  Hence there being over 18 million baseball bats in the country yet only 7 people who actually play the 'sport'.


In a country where they are legal, an awful lot of people end up being shot with their own guns, anyway. Some similar statistic exists for knife crime.

It was a bad strategic move on the part of Mister Burglar to herd the householder into the one room in the house with the most lethal weapons easily to hand


----------



## craigxcraig (Apr 5, 2018)

ddraig said:


> It is weird around there, looks a bit sleepy but isn't
> I lived on the south circ in that area and didn't feel safe on the road(s) by the station and saw a bit of aggro now and then



Been living in the centre of HG for the last five years and it's positively sleepy - I don't recognise any of this, or what was posted a couple of pages back.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2018)

craigxcraig said:


> Been living in the centre of HG for the last five years and it's positively sleepy - I don't recognise any of this, or what was posted a couple of pages back.


I should've said it was probably 20yrs ago now
e2a glad it's improved


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

ddraig said:


> I should've said it was probably 20yrs ago now
> e2a glad it's improved



Apart from all the burglaries and subsequent vigilante reaction?


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 5, 2018)

Wilf said:


> In the hands of a trained killer, any domestic implement can be used as a deadly weapon - biro, scrabble tile, post it note. I'm not saying_ I am_ that trained assassin, The Guild insists on secrecy. But, y'know, just think on.



"A fucking _penceeeel_"


----------



## Poi E (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I think handguns are bit dodgy for the budding domestic security enforcer.  They're all a bit illegal and stuff also having obvious weapons near your bed as well.  The pro household defending hardman has weapons lying around which could conceivably used for every day stuff.  Hence there being over 18 million baseball bats in the country yet only 7 people who actually play the 'sport'.



Probably true. For an older bloke whose eyesight is not great, a sawn off shot gun would be a better idea.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 5, 2018)

Poi E said:


> Probably true. For an older bloke whose eyesight is not great, a sawn off shot gun would be a better idea.



I dunno. If your eyesight is that bad what are you going to do after you've missed twice?


----------



## Poi E (Apr 5, 2018)

It will have scared the shit out of the burglar.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 5, 2018)

well inside a room  even if you miss he'll be blind and quite possibly deaf as well .
 now if you load with dragonbreath shells he'll be on fire and so will everything else
Dragon's breath (ammunition) - Wikipedia
he round has also been used for intimidation purposes. It may also be used as a less-than-lethal option for self-/home-defense, although the less-than-lethal aspect and safety are disputed, as the magnesium shards burn at approximately 3,000 °F (1,650 °C), which is more than enough to light a person, or house, on fire


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 5, 2018)

Can’t be arsed to read the whole thread, and I see the guy has been bailed, but I’m afraid this is one area where I go a bit Daily Mail. Break into my house - which by definition makes you a threat to my family - then all bets are off. If disturbing/shouting doesn’t make them run off I would quite happily impale them on a variety of sharp and pointy implements.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 5, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone boasting about beating anyone to death, only that they would take action to defend themselves and/or family, which is well within the law.



Bloody right. One benefit of being an ex-soldier is that violence is no stranger. You have been trained what to do, and conditioned to do it efficiently. A handy thing really.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 5, 2018)

Wilf said:


> In the hands of a trained killer, any domestic implement can be used as a deadly weapon - biro, *scrabble tile*, post it note. I'm not saying_ I am_ that trained assassin, The Guild insists on secrecy. But, y'know, just think on.


Has to be one worth 4 points or more. Or so I've heard


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2018)

The perp has been identified. He was wanted for an earlier job on another elderly person according to this: 

Burglar, 37, 'stabbed to death in pensioner's home' was on 'most wanted' list


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The perp has been identified. He was wanted for an earlier job on another elderly person according to this:
> 
> Burglar, 37, 'stabbed to death in pensioner's home' was on 'most wanted' list



Looks like he was pond life.

*shrugs*


----------



## craigxcraig (Apr 5, 2018)

Like one or two others above, if confronted at ''a time" or "someone in my gaff, not invited" I'd make a decision quite quickly as to what I do next - quote frankly this hand wringing is blx.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 5, 2018)

craigxcraig said:


> Like one or two others above, if confronted at ''a time" or "someone in my gaff, not invited" I'd make a decision quite quickly as to what I do next - quote frankly this hand wringing is blx.



What hand wringing though? Has anyone said that people shouldn't defend themselves? They haven't.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 5, 2018)

scifisam said:


> What hand wringing though? Has anyone said that people shouldn't defend themselves? They haven't.



But it makes you a DM reader. Lol!


----------



## craigxcraig (Apr 5, 2018)

Up thread, there were comments about let's wait and see etc (I've not read all of it), though it appeared to be what it was, a burglary gone wrong.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 5, 2018)

craigxcraig said:


> Up thread, there were comments about let's wait and see etc (I've not read all of it), though it appeared to be what it was, a burglary gone wrong.



That doesn't mean people were saying the bloke shouldn't have attacked a burglar. They were just saying that at that point we didn't know for sure that's what happened, which is why the burglary victim still had to be questioned.


----------



## craigxcraig (Apr 5, 2018)

Ah, agreed. 

Of course due process is now followed.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 5, 2018)

I'd say there's at least a 40% chance a guardian commentator will make a link to brexit over the next 24 hours.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 5, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'd say there's at least a 40% chance a guardian commentator will make a link to brexit over the next 24 hours.


6!


----------



## editor (Apr 5, 2018)

Grump said:


> I live near where Tony Martin shot a burglar some years ago, and a lot of people thought he deserved a medal rather than prison. If this guy did stab a burglar good luck to him.


So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 5, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Apart from all the burglaries and subsequent vigilante reaction?



*Surely* not the word "vigilante"!!!!


----------



## Smoking kills (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?


Until 1861 killing an intruder at night was perfectly legal, iirc.


----------



## agricola (Apr 6, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'd say there's at least a 40% chance a guardian commentator will make a link to brexit over the next 24 hours.



having a cloned David Miliband in every home would certainly reduce the rate of break-ins and criminal damage


----------



## Raheem (Apr 6, 2018)

Smoking kills said:


> Until 1861 killing an intruder at night was perfectly legal, iirc.



Well, if it was good enough for 1860...


----------



## Raheem (Apr 6, 2018)

agricola said:


> having a cloned David Miliband in every home would certainly reduce the rate of break-ins and criminal damage



But it would massively increase the rate of abandoned properties and rough sleeping.


----------



## nardy (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?


Absolutely not. If I was woken by surprise and found a burglar downstairs, I'd switch on the light and say: "Sorry to disturb you, but as you've gone to the trouble of waiting up till silly o-clock before visiting me, and the further trouble of forcing my lock, to say nothing of taking the risk of me NOT coming down but quietly calling the police instead, and risking a prison sentence, then you must surely be in greater need than me. Sit down while I make a cup of tea for us both, then explain your circumstances so that we can come to some agreement upon the equitable re-distribution of my assets."


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Smoking kills said:


> Until 1861 killing an intruder at night was perfectly legal, iirc.


And what century are we in now?


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

nardy said:


> Absolutely not. If I was woken by surprise and found a burglar downstairs, I'd switch on the light and say: "Sorry to disturb you, but as you've gone to the trouble of waiting up till silly o-clock before visiting me, and the further trouble of forcing my lock, to say nothing of taking the risk of me NOT coming down but quietly calling the police instead, and risking a prison sentence, then you must surely be in greater need than me. Sit down while I make a cup of tea for us both, then explain your circumstances so that we can come to some agreement upon the equitable re-distribution of my assets."


Yes that's so funny. But again, do you think it's OK to murder a burglar, irrespective of whether your life is actually in danger? Do you think death is an appropriate response no matter what?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

There's a lot more coming out about Vincent now, seems he was a career criminal with a history of targeting pensioners, not some opportunist addict looking to cover their next fix, but part of a pond life family gang.



> His family's gang operated in Kent and south London and was jailed for a total of almost 29 years in 2003 after conning pensioners out of £448,180.
> 
> They would knock on doors and suggest homeowners had structural problems, promising to fix them for huge fees. The men would even escort their victims to the bank so they could withdraw the cash to pay for the work. Two of the family members made a woman in her 80s sign away her £150,000 property, according to reports. They all admitted deception charges at Croydon Crown Court.
> 
> Undeterred, Vincent was jailed again in 2009  after being convicted of defrauding an 80-year-old out of £72,000 for alleged roof repairs. His father, with whom he committed the crime, went on the run but was caught and jailed in 2011.



Career crook killed by pensioner 'didn't deserve to die', say family

Maybe this unfortunate situation will make his family and other associates think about a change in career.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> There's a lot more coming out about Vincent now, seems he was a career criminal with a history of targeting pensioners, not some opportunist addict looking to cover their next fix, but part of a pond life family gang.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like he'd already made a career change - from defrauding people to burgling them. Perhaps he'd got just a little bit too well known for the former. What a cunt.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

A whole family of cunts. 



> AFAMILY of cowboy builders was jailed for a total of almost 29 years at Croydon Crown Court last week for conning pensioners out of £448,180.
> 
> The gang of six brothers and a son operated in the south London and Kent areas, knocking on doors and fabricating structural problems, which they offered to mend for huge fees. On several occasions victims were escorted to their bank to pay for the work. Two of the crooks persuaded a woman in her 80s to sign away her £150,000 home, as well as charging her £27,000 for work on her guttering. All pleaded guilty to deception charges totalling £448,180.
> 
> Henry Charles Vincent,44, was jailed for five-and-a-half years. Clifford Vincent, 27, was jailed for four-and-half years. David Vincent, 36, was sentenced to six years, *Henry Joseph Vincent, 23, the son of Henry Charles Vincent, was sentenced to four-and-half years. *John Jack Vincent, 41, was jailed for two years; Robert Vincent, 33, for four-and-a-half years; and Steven Vincent, 38, for 21 months.  All the men are from Orpington or Dartford in Kent.


Family of cowboys banged up


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?


 No , Neither is saying you can't stop someone stealing your stuff.  If violence occurs the homeowner should always have more rights than the burglar.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?



There is no suggestion here of a premeditated hit. But if a burglar comes into your house tooled up with a screwdriver and there is a struggle then someone getting hurt or worse is always a possible outcome.

Are you suggesting that to avoid certain possible outcomes of a situation like that, that people should be banged up for self defence?

On the point that you were responding to with your strawman I’d say this. Bar a few woke liberals, some legal professionals and his family members the mass of public/working class opinion IS that Vincent got exactly what he deserved. People are angry about crime and the impact on them and their family. They know the police aren’t interested in addressing it and they know it could have been them.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> There's a lot more coming out about Vincent now, seems he was a career criminal with a history of targeting pensioners, not some opportunist addict looking to cover their next fix, but part of a pond life family gang.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am not part of the hang ‘em high cadre but it is ironic that it looks like his death may have been as a result of a response from of the age group he had taken most advantage of in his career


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is no suggestion here of a premeditated hit. But if a burglar comes into your house tooled up with a screwdriver and there is a struggle then someone getting hurt or worse is always a possible outcome.
> 
> Are you suggesting that to avoid certain possible outcomes of a situation like that, that people should be banged up for self defence?
> 
> On the point that you were responding to with your strawman I’d say this. Bar a few woke liberals, some legal professionals and his family members the mass of public/working class opinion IS that Vincent got exactly what he deserved. People are angry about crime and the impact on them and their family. They know the police aren’t interested in addressing it and they know it could have been them.



If the facts are as presented then he's going to walk away. Police bail for murder? That's a pretty good indicator.

On the other hand it can't really be argued that it shouldn't be investigated.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I am not part of the hang ‘em high cadre but it is ironic that it looks like his death may have been as a result of a response from of the age group he had taken most advantage of in his career


I think that was more of a happy accident. Or, some might say, poetic justice. 

But it was probably also inevitable - if you're targeting a specific group, then it follows that it's more likely to be a member of that group who retaliated in the heat of the moment.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is no suggestion here of a premeditated hit. But if a burglar comes into your house tooled up with a screwdriver and there is a struggle then someone getting hurt or worse is always a possible outcome.
> 
> Are you suggesting that to avoid certain possible outcomes of a situation like that, that people should be banged up for self defence?
> 
> On the point that you were responding to with your strawman I’d say this. Bar a few woke liberals, some legal professionals and his family members the mass of public/working class opinion IS that Vincent got exactly what he deserved. People are angry about crime and the impact on them and their family. They know the police aren’t interested in addressing it and they know it could have been them.


I don't think anyone has suggested that people get banged up for self defence.   I wonder if you are confusing an investigation for punishment?


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I am not part of the hang ‘em high cadre but it is ironic that it looks like his death may have been as a result of a response from of the age group he had taken most advantage of in his career


In case anyone think I am a hang em high I'm not. 

I'm roll the dice you take your chances. 
You choose a life of violent crime don't go bleating when it bites you in the arse or expect anyone else to bleating for you either.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I am not part of the hang ‘em high cadre but it is ironic that it looks like his death may have been as a result of a response from of the age group he had taken most advantage of in his career



A group clearly targeted for their vulnerability, the cowardly cunt.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

And, I am also not part of the hang them types, but at the end of a day if a householder is faced with an intruder in their home, and in attempting to protect themselves and/or family, the intruder ends up dead I have zero sympathy for them. Especially in a case like this, where the intruder has such a history of being a complete cunt.

I am happy with the law that states force used in self-defence is not unreasonable simply because it is disproportionate – unless, of course, it is grossly disproportionate.

These links are from a few years ago, but the stats are interesting:


> Up to an estimated 23,000 people were assaulted after coming face to face with an intruder in their own home last year.
> Householder attacked by burglar every 30 minutes





> Only eleven householders have been prosecuted for attacking intruders in the past 15 years,
> Householders rarely taken to court for burglar attacks


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?



If people are in fear for their lives at the hands of an intruder then surely you agree they have a right to defend themselves including killing the assailant?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If people are in fear for their lives at the hands of an intruder then surely you agree they have a right to defend themselves including killing the assailant?



That's the law as it stands.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's the law as it stands.



It’s unclear whether editor agrees with it or not.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s unclear whether editor agrees with it or not.



There was debate (stoked up by the Mail) following the Tony Martin case to change the law to allow 'disproportionate' force.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I don't think anyone has suggested that people get banged up for self defence.   I wonder if you are confusing an investigation for punishment?



I wonder if there is a slight whiff of distaste for popular opinion on this subject. 

We’ve had the trope of the desperate burglar ‘reduced’ by circumstances to desperate acts of crime, we’ve had Tony Martin thrown in and seized on as an example of what the ‘mob’ might think unless their impulses are policed, we now have the suggestion that thickos talking about self defence are confusing it with a cop investigation.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Yes that's so funny. But again, do you think it's OK to murder a burglar, *irrespective of whether your life is actually in danger*? Do you think death is an appropriate response no matter what?


(My bold)

If a burglar is in my house, as far as I’m concerned by default that makes them a threat to my family. So if they don’t fuck off the moment they’re disturbed, then yes, they get whatever the fuck it takes to remove that threat.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> There was debate (stoked up by the Mail) following the Tony Martin case to change the law to allow 'disproportionate' force.



I’d suggest they were merely reflecting popular opinion back to its readership. People don’t need to be stoked up about this. People are angry about the inaction on crime/anti social behaviour/the saturation of an area with drugs.

Number one issue for every working class community.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> There was debate (stoked up by the Mail) following the Tony Martin case to change the law to allow 'disproportionate' force.



The High Court actually ruled the change in the law "rather than making it easier for a defendant to succeed, s76(5A) actually limits the scope of self defence", and "It is therefore clear that the amendments made by s43 CCA 2013 amounted to *a refinement of the common law of self defence as opposed to a major change: contrary to the headlines used by mainstream news outlets*".



> The approach taken by the CPS lawyer suggests that a defendant will *automatically* succeed with self defence in *any* case where the degree of force used by the defendant falls short of “grossly disproportionate” force.  The Court held that, rather than making it easier for a defendant to succeed, s76(5A) actually limits the scope of self defence: on its true interpretation, a defendant can *never* successfully run self defence if the degree of force used is grossly disproportionate.  It follows that, in all other cases, the jury must still apply the traditional “reasonableness” test when assessing whether it can succeed.
> 
> It was held that, in householder cases, the jury must ask itself:[3]
> 
> ...



The Householder Defence - KBW Barristers Chambers


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d suggest they were merely reflecting popular opinion back to its readership. People don’t need to be stoked up about this. People are angry about the inaction on crime/anti social behaviour/the saturation of an area with drugs.
> 
> Number one issue for every working class community.



Yes, the Mail the voice of the working class.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> (My bold)
> 
> If a burglar is in my house, as far as I’m concerned by default that makes them a threat to my family. So if they don’t fuck off the moment they’re disturbed, then yes, they get whatever the fuck it takes to remove that threat.



I have reacted violently to intruders and realisticly the law backs you on that. "Whatever it takes to remove that threat"
(and not much more) is a pretty accurate summary of where the law stands.

If in the other hand when I discover a youth trying to steal my partner's bike from outside our house instead of punching him I stuck an axe in his head then the law wouldn't protect me.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Yes, the Mail the voice of the working class.



The right understands the wc better than the left does.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The right understands the wc better than the left does.



Where is the lefty outcry here? I understand that the DM wants you to think that a jihadist could break into your house and convert your wife to Islam and get nothing worse than a free council house from the namby pamby bleeding heart beardy weirdies but you?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I have reacted violently to intruders and realisticly the law backs you on that. "Whatever it takes to remove that threat"
> (and not much more) is a pretty accurate summary of where the law stands.
> 
> If in the other hand when I discover a youth trying to steal my partner's bike from outside our house instead if punching him I stuck an axe in his head then the law wouldn't protect me.


Not quite.

The law was changed, quite correctly. It used to be that the onus was on the defender of the property to use "the minimum amount of force" required which left a huge grey area. The test is now _'reasonable force as far as the householder believed it to be' _ which is important. If you had broken into my house before the change and I killed you, there was a strong chance that I'd be done for murder. However, now, if you break into my house and I kill you, I can argue that I thought my life or family was in danger and if accepted that would succeed.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

This case was discussed at a meeting I was in, and the solicitor present explained it along the lines of this:

Basically if a householder is found to have not used more force than was reasonable in whatever state they were in, presumably in fear and panic, and that force can even be disproportionate to the level of threat, they will either not be charged at all, or they will be acquitted at trial.

In this case grabbing say a kitchen knife and using it in fear and panic when confronted in the kitchen by intruders making threats and/or wielding even a screwdriver is probably lawful, despite the burglar being killed. Chasing then killing the burglar as he runs away would most likely be considered grossly disproportionate and likely not lawful, nor should it be IMO.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Where is the lefty outcry here? I understand that the DM wants you to think that a jihadist could break into your house and convert your wife to Islam and get nothing worse than a free council house from the namby pamby bleeding heart beardy weirdies but you?



I literally don’t know what you’re asking here.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> There was debate (stoked up by the Mail) following the Tony Martin case to change the law to allow 'disproportionate' force.


No there wasn't. Not the way you frame it.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> (My bold)
> 
> If a burglar is in my house, as far as I’m concerned by default that makes them a threat to my family. So if they don’t fuck off the moment they’re disturbed, then yes, they get whatever the fuck it takes to remove that threat.


Absolutely. How do you know if your life is in danger? That can turn on a sixpence. One minute you're being burgled the next you could be under physical attack with a weapon. Fortunately the law now allows for the householder's likely state of mind to be taken into account.

Anyway, this dead chap sounds like a proper charmer who got what he deserved. Oh well ...


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

I remember a discussion after the Munir (sp?) Hussain case a few years back.  He was the home owner who chased the crook into the street and belted seven bells out of him.  I think he ended up doing time for that but even then there were those who would have it that the crook was fair game for anything the moment he broke in.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I literally don’t know what you’re asking here.



Where is the lefty outcry that you're taking a bold stand against?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Not quite.
> 
> The law was changed, quite correctly. It used to be that the onus was on the defender of the property to use "the minimum amount of force" required which left a huge grey area. The test is now _'reasonable force as far as the householder believed it to be' _ which is important. If you had broken into my house before the change and I killed you, there was a strong chance that I'd be done for murder. However, now, if you break into my house and I kill you, I can argue that I thought my life or family was in danger and if accepted that would succeed.



A change or a clarification of precedent ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Yes, the Mail the voice of the working class.



The DM are not the voice of anyone on this. They are merely relfecting back widespread an angry popular expression about criminality that has bubbled over since the arrest of the pensioner.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A change or a clarification of precedent ?


Amendments, changes, refinements, call them what you will. See CS's post 289.


----------



## bimble (Apr 6, 2018)

This bloke always good at explaining what the actual legal situation is behind the 'outrage as' headlines. He does it again here:
Bashing burglars and the law of self-defence


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Not quite.
> 
> The law was changed, quite correctly. It used to be that the onus was on the defender of the property to use "the minimum amount of force" required which left a huge grey area. The test is now _'reasonable force as far as the householder believed it to be' _ which is important.* If you had broken into my house before the change and I killed you, there was a strong chance that I'd be done for murder.* However, now, if you break into my house and I kill you, I can argue that I thought my life or family was in danger and if accepted that would succeed.



Actually, according to the link I posted above, #281, which was before the change in law, it wouldn't have actually been very likely at all.



> Only eleven householders have been prosecuted for attacking intruders in the past 15 years, Ken Macdonald, the Director of Public Prosecutions, said last night. Mr Macdonald said the low total - which included only seven domestic burglaries - proved existing laws give the public adequate protection to defend their property.





> But Mr Macdonald said an informal trawl of Crown Prosecution Service files had shown prosecutions for attacks on burglars were extremely rare. He said: "The law is on the side of householders. Those who attack intruders will only be prosecuted if they use very excessive force."


Householders rarely taken to court for burglar attacks

Also see post #289 & the High Court ruling - the change in the law amounted to *"a refinement of the common law of self defence as opposed to a major change: contrary to the headlines used by mainstream news outlets".*


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Where is the lefty outcry that you're taking a bold stand against?



I said the right understand the WC better than the left does. You won’t find Tommy Robinson finger wagging and talking of mob rule etc although he’s juxtaposing the quick arrest of the pensioner against the decades of inaction against Muslim grooming gangs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Where is the lefty outcry that you're taking a bold stand against?



No need for an outcry, just a sense that the left was on the same side of those it professes to lead on this issue and understood the anger. 

Instead, silence.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The DM are not the voice of anyone on this. They are merely relfecting back widespread an angry popular expression about criminality that has bubbled over since the arrest of the pensioner.



Do you think he shouldn't have been arrested ?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

I grew up with families like this . The kids I knew in school are still thieving and doing time decades later. One recently got a handful of years after doing a house and trying to hock a stolen Nobel peace prize at a second hand shop. Yes, a gold nobel fucking prize & a lock of Lord Collingwoods hair, fucking hell.  Their dads and their granddads considered thieving a career. I cannot get my head around it personally.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Their dads and their granddads considered thieving a career.


It's _the system_ that's fucked them though. They'd all be saints if it weren't for capitalism/tories/zionists etc ...


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I grew up with families like this . The kids I knew in school are still thieving and doing time decades later. One recently got a handful of years after doing a house and trying to hock a stolen Nobel peace prize at a second hand shop. Yes, a gold nobel fucking prize & a lock of Lord Collingwoods hair, fucking hell.  Their dads and their granddads considered thieving a career. I cannot get my head around it personally.



I'm from one of those families, one of the ones like the scrote that got killed. It's hard as fuck to escape that life. Not to excuse them burgling or thieving. 

It's just that if you grow up surrounded by people that think it perfectly normal to cut up drugs on the kitchen twble in front of kids (me) or defraud vulnerable people (the dead scrote) then it's easy to slip into that life, it's normalised for you. Obviously the bloke chose to go on the rob and that's on him BUT his morality filter was skewed and that's the fault of his family. They have a portion of blame here too. If they had been proper family then this bloke wouldn't have done what he did etc. 

The homeowner. The outrage at him being arrested is from people that have fuck all clue how old bill handle this. They have to arrest him in order to investigate then clear. I gave up trying to explain this on Facebook after my background was thrown back at me!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

One of them did my GF's house not knowing I was involved when I was early 20s.it got messy at the trial when it was clear junior was getting a 9 bar. His father threatened to make us pay and called my GF a dog. a month later, shouty dad was run over. twice. and had his legs smashed to matchsticks. Dad was still thieving and fencing as soon as he was able to walk again. So it goes.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 6, 2018)

We've endured no burglaries fortunately, which is astonishing really, given the area we live in. 

All I know is that I'd be shit scared of any burglar (who for the avoidance of any 'doubt'  would be a scumbag, no argument). 

I doubt I'd be able to do any more than try to scare him off, if that. 

All this talk along the lines of 'I'd do whatever I had to' is all very well, but how much are a lot of people even *capable* of doing? Really?

All this 'If I had to I'd beat him up I would, and if he ended up dead that's his own fault' just sounds like talk to me. 

There are surely many more than let on who are simply _incapable_ of beating anyone up, or of threatening them with a household weapon. I doubt I'm alone in this. 

I'm a rubbish householder then. Feel free to show your contempt


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No need for an outcry, just a sense that the left was on the same side of those it professes to lead on this issue and understood the anger.
> 
> Instead, silence.



The only debate on this issue that I can see is whether or not there should be an investigation i.e whether or not we should wait for the facts before having an opinion.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> We've endured no burglaries fortunately, which is astonishing really, given the area we live in.
> 
> All I know is that I'd be shit scared of any burglar (who for the avoidance of any 'doubt'  would be a scumbag, no argument).
> 
> ...



There's a lot of people waiting for their Travis Bickle moment.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> I'm from one of those families, one of the ones like the scrote that got killed. It's hard as fuck to escape that life. Not to excuse them burgling or thieving.
> 
> It's just that if you grow up surrounded by people that think it perfectly normal to cut up drugs on the kitchen twble in front of kids (me) or defraud vulnerable people (the dead scrote) then it's easy to slip into that life, it's normalised for you. Obviously the bloke chose to go on the rob and that's on him BUT his morality filter was skewed and that's the fault of his family. They have a portion of blame here too. If they had been proper family then this bloke wouldn't have done what he did etc.
> 
> The homeowner. The outrage at him being arrested is from people that have fuck all clue how old bill handle this. They have to arrest him in order to investigate then clear. I gave up trying to explain this on Facebook after my background was thrown back at me!



Yep, I know exactly where you are coming from.I could never get my head around how short term their focused activities were- it was effectively subsistence burglary and dealing - no plans for next week or next year.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Do you think he shouldn't have been arrested ?



1. There is a mass popular anger about crime/anti social behaviour; 
2. Within that expression there are a range of views;
3. The left is not part of the debate generally as it's either not interested or secretly is queasy about popular opinion. This matters when it seeks a hearing on the things it is interested in; 
4. I do think he should have been arrested-  but see no point holding a pensioner in a cell, he could have been bailed much more quickly - but if the people I work with and know and the social media I read (bar this board obviously) is accurate I am in a minority. Most people I know think 'they should give the bloke a medal'; 
5. Most people believe the police and the state are not on their side on this issue.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 1. There is a mass popular anger about crime/anti social behaviour;
> 2. Within that expression there are a range of views;
> 3. The left is not part of the debate generally as it's either not interested or secretly is queasy about popular opinion. This matters when it seeks a hearing on the things it is interested in;
> 4. I do think he should have been arrested-  but see no point holding a pensioner in a cell, he could have been bailed much more quickly - but if the people I work with and know and the social media I read (bar this board obviously) is accurate I am in a minority. Most people I know think 'they should give the bloke a medal';
> 5. Most people believe the police and the state are not on their side on this issue.



"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> One of them did my GF's house not knowing I was involved when I was early 20s.it got messy at the trial when it was clear junior was getting a 9 bar. His father threatened to make us pay and called my GF a dog. a month later, shouty dad was run over. twice. and had his legs smashed to matchsticks. Dad was still thieving and fencing as soon as he was able to walk again. So it goes.



Try going faster next time.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

wasn't me


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> All this talk along the lines of 'I'd do whatever I had to' is all very well, but how much are a lot of people even *capable* of doing? Really?
> 
> All this 'If I had to I'd beat him up I would, and if he ended up dead that's his own fault' just sounds like talk to me.


That's why I started the other thread. I think we'd all like to think that we'd heroically see off any intruder but the reality is far different. When I thought there was a burglar in our kitchen I was fucking terrified. Absolutely shitting it. I could hear and feel the blood pumping around my head and neck. You have no idea what you'll be confronting; is he armed/big/desperate?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"



Is that it? Seriously?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s unclear whether editor agrees with it or not.


I think the mistake here is in seeing it in binary terms. What I took from editor's remark was that he's challenging the idea of "fair game" - that, if you're committing burglary, it's OK for someone to kill you. I wouldn't agree with that concept, either. But if you are committing burglary and, in doing so, you put someone in fear of their life, and in that fear they then defend themselves to the point that you die, that's just too bad.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> We've endured no burglaries fortunately, which is astonishing really, given the area we live in.
> 
> All I know is that I'd be shit scared of any burglar (who for the avoidance of any 'doubt'  would be a scumbag, no argument).
> 
> ...



I would be shit scared too, but I would grab the fire extinguisher in the hope they backed off & fucked off, if they didn't I would most likely set it off first, in the unlikely circumstances that didn't work, I would be left with no choice at that point, but to lump them with it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> whether or not we should wait for the facts before having an opinion.



That isn’t the urban way!


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That's why I started the other thread. I think we'd all like to think that we'd heroically see off any intruder but the reality is far different. When I thought there was a burglar in our kitchen I was fucking terrified. Absolutely shitting it. I could hear and feel the blood pumping around my head and neck. You have no idea what you'll be confronting; is he armed/big/desperate?



Yup.  You've got to figure that the burglar probably doesn't want a confrontation either.  If they were that sort of person they'd just ring the doorbell and barge through when you answered.  I've always thought the best outcome all round would be to get them outside the property as quick as possible.  As stated above though it does seem some people have some fairly violent fantasies about this.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I think the mistake here is in seeing it in binary terms. What I took from editor's remark was that he's challenging the idea of "fair game" - that, if you're committing burglary, it's OK for someone to kill you. I wouldn't agree with that concept, either. But if you are committing burglary and, in doing so, you put someone in fear of their life, and in that fear they then defend themselves to the point that you die, that's just too bad.



Of course that was what editor was saying.  It was obvious unless you wanted to deliberately misunderstand for some tiresome reason.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Yup.  You've got to figure that the burglar probably doesn't want a confrontation either.  If they were that sort of person they'd just ring the doorbell and barge through when you answered.  I've always thought the best outcome all round would be to get them outside the property as quick as possible.  As stated above though it does seem some people have some fairly violent fantasies about this.



Yeah, getting out the house would be ideal, if an option & there's time before you're in arm's reach - at which point they are likely to back off or grab you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Of course that was what editor was saying.  It was obvious unless you wanted to deliberately misunderstand for some tiresome reason.



Oh do fuck off. If it was seen in binary terms that was because that’s how it had been framed.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That's why I started the other thread. I think we'd all like to think that we'd heroically see off any intruder but the re
> ality is far different. When I thought there was a burglar in our kitchen I was fucking terrified. Absolutely shitting it. I could hear and feel the blood pumping around my head and neck. You have no idea what you'll be confronting; is he armed/big/desperate?



There's a "There's a rat in my kitchen, what am I gonna do?"  thread ?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

Home owner spared jail for killing burglar he stabbed 50 times | Metro News

not a million miles way from HG


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That's why I started the other thread. I think we'd all like to think that we'd heroically see off any intruder but the reality is far different. When I thought there was a burglar in our kitchen I was fucking terrified. Absolutely shitting it. I could hear and feel the blood pumping around my head and neck. You have no idea what you'll be confronting; is he armed/big/desperate?



This is what happens when citizens are disarmed. They just become prey.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Home owner spared jail for killing burglar he stabbed 50 times | Metro News
> 
> not a million miles way from HG



I am not surprised that case went to court, stabbing someone 50 is somewhat OTT, I think he was lucky the jury found him not guilty, noting it took them 6 hours.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am not surprised that case went to court, stabbing someone 50 is somewhat OTT, I think he was lucky the jury found him not guilty, noting it took them 6 hours.



These cases are so rare it's pretty difficult to generalise .


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 6, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> This is what happens when citizens are disarmed. They just become prey.



Should citizens be tooled up? Wouldn't that just lead to more deaths?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> This is what happens when citizens are disarmed. They just become prey.


I have two guns in the house.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

nunchucks under the bed


----------



## xenon (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 1. There is a mass popular anger about crime/anti social behaviour;
> 2. Within that expression there are a range of views;
> 3. The left is not part of the debate generally as it's either not interested or secretly is queasy about popular opinion. This matters when it seeks a hearing on the things it is interested in;
> 4. I do think he should have been arrested-  but see no point holding a pensioner in a cell, he could have been bailed much more quickly - but if the people I work with and know and the social media I read (bar this board obviously) is accurate I am in a minority. Most people I know think 'they should give the bloke a medal';
> 5. Most people believe the police and the state are not on their side on this issue.



I generally agree with you on this stuff. but it's not unreasonable for someone arrested on suspicion of murder to be held over night. The alternative is just to take any suspect's word at face value, let them on their way and pop round later when you've got your investigation in gear. Which, would be a bit daft.

Let's see if charges are brought. Given what we know so far, I would be surprised and pissed off if they were.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Home owner spared jail for killing burglar he stabbed 50 times | Metro News
> 
> not a million miles way from HG



Fucking hell, if you can get away with that the Guinness loving pensioner is never going to court.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> This is what happens when citizens are disarmed. They just become prey.



Its true.  Its like fucking Mad Max out there.


----------



## xenon (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I have two guns in the house.



Me too.

A BB gun and a glue gun.

Don't make me have to lay down some justice.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Fucking hell, if you can get away with that the Guinness loving pensioner is never going to court.


 
the stabber was paranoid schizophrenic IIRC, so there was some background to it


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> As stated above though it does seem some people have some fairly violent fantasies about this.



America wouldn't have such a big gun industry if it wasn't for people who fantasise about using one of their 23 guns to shoot an intruder.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> America wouldn't have such a big gun industry if it wasn't for people who fantasise about using one of their 23 guns to shoot an intruder.


imagine suffering the agony of choice while your house was being burgled, they'd have gone before you decided whether your .30-06 would be better than your .38 or .22


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2018)

I remember kenneth noye got off after something like a 30 stabs. I remember at the time (of the me watching a docu, I amn't that old) thinking 'why didn't he stop after the first few stabs' but the jury said legit action through fear. Mad world. And it was a police officer as well so normal world jury would have been up for dropping a library on him.

I suppose once you've gone forwrd with the stab a rage/fear would make you continue.

not a situation I'd care to be in, unless you are stone scum like noye that action would haunt you


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> imagine suffering the agony of choice while your house was being burgled, they'd have gone before you decided whether your .30-06 would be better than your .38 or .22


 
.22 will cause less collateral damage to the expensive flock wallpaper obvs


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> And it was a police officer as well so normal world jury would have been up for dropping a library on him.



But Noye didn’t know it was a police officer (or was able to argue successfully that he didnt) - to him it was someone masked up loitering in his grounds which, let’s face it, would shit anyone up. That’s what swayed the jury.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But Noye didn’t know it was a police officer ...


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I have two guns in the house.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


>



Two is nowt, my old man used to have around two dozen in the house.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 6, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> We've endured no burglaries fortunately, which is astonishing really, given the area we live in.
> 
> All I know is that I'd be shit scared of any burglar (who for the avoidance of any 'doubt'  would be a scumbag, no argument).
> 
> ...


At the risk of going down the “speaking as a parent...” line, it’s having kids in the house that’s changed things for me. The old cliches of being willing to die for them etc are very real. Make me think they’re in any sort of danger and I wouldn’t give a fuck who the other person was.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Two is nowt, my old man used to have around two dozen in the house.



Some of the family kept guns about a century or so ago and I believe some of the US branch still do but (for me, at any rate) the thought of a weapon in the home would freak me out.

But who knows when a home invasion occurs, all my rationality might go out the window!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Some of the family kept guns about a century or so ago and I believe some of the US branch still do but (for me, at any rate) the thought of a weapon in the home would freak me out.
> 
> But who knows when a home invasion occurs, all my rationality might go out the window!



They wouldn't have been any good to the old man if someone broke in, as they were locked away in a secured room, he would have just grabbed one of the swords, or even a spear, off the wall instead.

Our house was like a fucking armoury.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

It was unreasonable to arrest the guy and detain him for 24 hours.

People who kill while driving are not routinely arrested unless there is sufficient grounds to suspect them of dangerous driving etc

In this case the police should have known straight away that the dead guy was on their most-wanted list for burglary.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If only there was a way for an individual not to find themselves in an individuals
> 
> At the risk of going down the “speaking as a parent...” line, it’s having kids in the house that’s changed things for me. The old cliches of being willing to die for them etc are very real. Make me think they’re in any sort of danger and I wouldn’t give a fuck who the other person was.



For sure but you're not much use to them dead (dependent on the value of your life insurance policy). Still better to get intruder out of the house rather than engage him in a battle to the death, no?


----------



## andysays (Apr 6, 2018)

xenon said:


> Me too.
> 
> A BB gun and a glue gun.
> 
> Don't make me have to lay down some justice.


They'll have to prise the glue gun from your cold sticky dead hand, no doubt. 

And what a joy to see the usual leftie bashers jumping on this and acting as Tommy Robinson's publicity agency, yet again.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> It was unreasonable to arrest the guy and detain him for 24 hours.
> 
> People who kill while driving are not routinely arrested unless there is sufficient grounds to suspect them of dangerous driving etc
> 
> In this case the police should have known straight away that the dead guy was on their most-wanted list for burglary.





I don't think the character of the victim is the deciding factor in all this.

I don't know enough about how the police should or shouldn't operate in these circumstances but a man has died a violent death.  An interview under caution would seem absolutely necessary to establish all the facts.  Of course they could have just sent Chief Inspector Barnaby around to have a chat on the sofa over a cup of tea.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

andysays said:


> And what a joy to see the usual leftie bashers jumping on this and acting as Tommy Robinson's publicity agency, yet again.



But he's _The Voice of the Working Class.  _You wouldn't understand.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> For sure but you're not much use to them dead (dependent on the value of your life insurance policy). Still better to get intruder out of the house rather than engage him in a battle to the death, no?



I would have thought most burglars are prepared for violence given they don’t have much diplomatic leverage as to why they’ve broken their way in to someone’s home. 
Of course nobody knows how they’ll react in that situation but it’s a bit daft to think the exchange would be anything other than adrenaline driven.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I would have thought most burglars are prepared for violence given they don’t have much diplomatic leverage as to why they’ve broken their way in to someone’s home.
> Of course nobody knows how they’ll react in that situation but it’s a bit daft to think the exchange would be anything other than adrenaline driven.


you'd have thought so. but the burglar rolled a seven clearly wasn't prepared sufficiently.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I would have thought most burglars are prepared for violence given they don’t have much diplomatic leverage as to why they’ve broken their way in to someone’s home.


I reckon quite the opposite actually.  I reckon most burglers would want to avoid confrontation.  They're aware it may happen for sure but if they're just out and out thugs they can ring the doorbell and barge in like some do.



> Of course nobody knows how they’ll react in that situation but it’s a bit daft to think the exchange would be anything other than adrenaline driven.



Sure, but not getting yourself killed should always be pretty high up anyone's agenda.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> In this case the police should have known straight away that the dead guy was on their most-wanted list for burglary.


oh? was it tattooed on his face?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

andysays said:


> And what a joy to see the usual leftie bashers jumping on this and acting as Tommy Robinson's publicity agency, yet again.



And how predictable the liberal left leaving it wide open for him to be the voice of reason. Again.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 6, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> oh? was it tattooed on his face?



I have the sneaking suspicion that Mrs D meant they should know from might shits and th like that he was a wrong un. It's not like he's got no previous. He'd be well known to the old bill


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> I have the sneaking suspicion that Mrs D meant they should know from might shits and th like that he was a wrong un. It's not like he's got no previous. He'd be well known to the old bill


especially if he had 'might shit' on his record.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

The fact that the bloke had criminal record doesn't mean he wasn't murdered.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

When most cyclists are violently killed by lorry drivers, no one is arrested.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> When most cyclists are violently killed by lorry drivers, no one is arrested.


Do you think that might have something to do with the fact that when most cyclists are killed it's an accident?


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> I have the sneaking suspicion that Mrs D meant they should know from might shits and th like that he was a wrong un. It's not like he's got no previous. He'd be well known to the old bill



It all about reasonable suspicion. If he’d stabbed a 7 year old girl it would be reasonable to suspect him of murder because the burglar story wouldn’t be plausible.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 6, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> especially if he had 'might shit' on his record.



Proofread and autocorrect have combined to make me look a fool. I shall go hang my head in shane


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Do you think that might have something to do with the fact that when most cyclists are killed it's an accident?



But often it’s due to dangerous driving. Why not arrest drivers anyway so the matter can be investigated properly?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> But often it’s due to dangerous driving. Why not arrest drivers anyway so the matter can be investigated properly?


just because something is due to danger doesn't make it violent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> It all about reasonable suspicion. If he’d stabbed a 7 year old girl it would be reasonable to suspect him of murder because the burglar story wouldn’t be plausible.


no, it's all about reasonable force: not reasonable suspicion.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 6, 2018)

Heres a case that happened in Stockport a few years ago
In the clear: Bramhall homeowner who stabbed intruder to death acted in 'reasonable self defence'


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> But often it’s due to dangerous driving. Why not arrest drivers anyway so the matter can be investigated properly?



Drivers are normally arrested after fatal accidents, as shown by a google news search for 'uk driver arrested after fatal accident', which returns over a million results.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> But often it’s due to dangerous driving. Why not arrest drivers anyway so the matter can be investigated properly?


If there's evidence of an offence having been committed the driver is arrested.

I'd expect that the weight of the possible crime plays a part too. By not arresting a driver after an RTA the police leave a possible careless driver in the community. By not arresting a knife killer after a death they'd leave a possible murderer in the community.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Drivers are normally arrested after fatal accidents, as shown by a google news search for 'uk driver arrested after fatal accident', which returns over a million results.



Yeah, I question the assumption that drivers aren't arrested after killing cyclists. Not charged, yeah, but that's not the same thing.

The length of time this pensioner was held wasn't very long and some of it might have just been for the police to finish checking his house over so that he could go home. Obvs cops often treat people badly, to say the least, but I'm pretty sure when it's an old man who killed a burglar that they've known about for ages he'll have been feted like a king at the station.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

nardy said:


> Absolutely not. If I was woken by surprise and found a burglar downstairs, I'd switch on the light and say: "Sorry to disturb you, but as you've gone to the trouble of waiting up till silly o-clock before visiting me, and the further trouble of forcing my lock, to say nothing of taking the risk of me NOT coming down but quietly calling the police instead, and risking a prison sentence, then you must surely be in greater need than me. Sit down while I make a cup of tea for us both, then explain your circumstances so that we can come to some agreement upon the equitable re-distribution of my assets."


  Have you ever had this happen to you, because it sounds like do.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

Having read more on this case,  from sources like uk press reddit and a number of internet detectives, we should just leave doors open night and a note if we are sleeping inside and which rooms. Would this type of crime stop or othet crimes bloom?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

extra dry said:


> Having read more on this case,  from sources like uk press reddit and a number of internet detectives, we should just leave doors open night and a note if we are sleeping inside and which rooms. Would this type of crime stop or othet crimes bloom?


yes


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Yes that's so funny. But again, do you think it's OK to murder a burglar, irrespective of whether your life is actually in danger? Do you think death is an appropriate response no matter what?


It's a stranger
In my house
They haven't RSVP'd whether they are there to rob me, rape me or murder me. 
If I given them the benefit of the doubt my worse case scenario is that I'm murdered.
If I err on the side of caution the worse case scenario is that it isn't a murderer that I've killed but at least I'm still alive to argue about whether my life was in peril on not.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> It's a stranger
> In my house
> They haven't RSVP'd whether they are there to rob me, rape me or murder me.
> If I given them the benefit of the doubt my worse case scenario is that I'm murdered.
> If I err on the side of caution the worse case scenario is that it isn't a murderer that I've killed but at least I'm still alive to argue about whether my life was in peril on not.


So that's a yes then? Anyone in your house can be murdered by you, even if it's a child, as it's a case of kill first, ask questions later?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

for some reason, every time I come back to this thread, The Fall's version of _There's a Ghost in my house_ starts playing in my head


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So that's a yes then? Anyone in your house can be murdered by you, even if it's a child, as it's a case of kill first, ask questions later?


They can be struck by me. That may or may not result in a death and I don't know how many of them there are so I'm going to use as much force as I can muster. 

As for a child, can we be sure they are really a child late at night with the lights off? Could be a dwarf with supernatural strength or a possessed doll like in the Chuckie movies.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So that's a yes then? Anyone in your house can be murdered by you, *even if it's a child*, as it's a case of kill first, ask questions later?


Oh please...


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Oh please...


Don't children ever commit burglaries then? 

Oh why yes they do, Fucking loads of them: 
One-in-six suspected burglars are children as more than 17,000 minors arrested


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Don't children ever commit burglaries then?
> 
> Oh why yes they do, Fucking loads of them:
> One-in-six suspected burglars are children as more than 17,000 minors arrested


They also commit murders:


Back in 1989, 15-year-old Rhode Island teen Craig Price brutally stabbed and killed 39-year-old Joan Heaton and her two daughters, 10-year-old Jennifer and 8-year-old Melissa. Price was already a suspect in a previous murder investigation and when police came to question him, he was found with wounds on his body and the murder weapons in his room with dried blood. Before his 16th birthday, Craig was convicted on 4 counts of murder as a minor which meant he would be released by the age of 21. However, he was sentenced to an additional 10-25 years in prison thanks to a group called Citizens Opposed to the Release of Craig Price.

Notorious killer Willie Bosket was troubled from the moment he was born as his father was also a murderer serving life in prison in Milwaukee. Bosket committed dozens of crimes around New York City and eventually his first murder by the time he was 15-years-old. He first shot and killed two men during separate robbery attempts back in 1978. He also killed a transit employee before getting caught. Bosket pleaded guilty to the murders but since he was only 15, he was tried as a minor and received 5 years in a youth facility. His light sentence would bring about historic change as New York would become the first state to change juvenile laws to allow kids as young as 13 to be tried as adults. It was called the Willie Bosket law. Upon being released, Bosket continued a life of crime going in and out of jail until finally receiving a life sentence in 1989.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> They also commit murders:
> 
> 
> Back in 1989, 15-year-old Rhode Island teen Craig Price brutally stabbed and killed 39-year-old Joan Heaton and her two daughters, 10-year-old Jennifer and 8-year-old Melissa. Price was already a suspect in a previous murder investigation and when police came to question him, he was found with wounds on his body and the murder weapons in his room with dried blood. Before his 16th birthday, Craig was convicted on 4 counts of murder as a minor which meant he would be released by the age of 21. However, he was sentenced to an additional 10-25 years in prison thanks to a group called Citizens Opposed to the Release of Craig Price.
> ...


What is your point, caller?


----------



## andysays (Apr 6, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And how predictable the liberal left leaving it wide open for him to be the voice of reason. Again.



Shakes fist at the liberal left for not pandering to what you and Tommy Robinson imagine are universally held working class prejudices by immediately tweeting to juxtapose the quick arrest of the pensioner against the decades of inaction against Muslim grooming gangs 

Contrary to what's been claimed here, no-one I know has mentioned their outrage at the arrest of this pensioner, and most would regard any cynical attempt to link this case to so-called "muslim grooming gangs" with the contempt it deserves, because not every member of the working class is as susceptible to bigotry as you seem to be and seem to believe everyone else is.

And the idea that TR is regarded as the voice of reason beyond you and a handful of other twats who wank away over his every utterance is a joke, but I'm sure he's very grateful for your tireless work on his behalf.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> What is your point, caller?


Kids can be burglars and kids can be murderers so my worst case scenario about getting murdered is still valid. So you adding 'even if it's a child' was an unnecessary addition.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> Kids can be burglars and kids can be murderers so my worst case scenario about getting murdered is still valid. So you adding 'even if it's a child' was an unnecessary addition.


So just to get this in context,  what percentage of children burglars commit murder in the UK?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Oh please...


Thread's about to get surreal ...


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So just to get this in context,  what percentage of children burglars commit murder in the UK?


I'm not in receipt of that information. When in doubt play it safe and so assume all of them. Safer than assuming none if them. 
Im not exactly going to be googling stats during a home Invasion.


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So just to get this in context,  what percentage of children burglars commit murder in the UK?



About 4% of murders are committed during a theft. 60% of murderers are known to the victim, the chance of being slaughtered in your sleep by a rouge 12-year-old stealing your iPhone is pretty slim.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

bemused said:


> About 4% of murders are committed during a theft. 60% of murderers are known to the victim, the chance of being slaughtered in your sleep by a rouge 12-year-old stealing your iPhone is pretty slim.


That will be of great comfort to your orphaned kids after you were slaughtered in your sleep. 

"At least it was a really rare type of murder" said no one who lost someone to a rare murder.


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Drivers are normally arrested after fatal accidents, as shown by a google news search for 'uk driver arrested after fatal accident', which returns over a million results.



Being arrested in this case protects you; giving you access to free legal support and due process.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A change or a clarification of precedent ?


Like much UK law, it was case law, enshrined in the statement from the judge.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

This is one of the most male threads on Urban (outside of the railway threads).  Do no female urbs want to come on here and fantasize about what they'd do if someone threatened their faaammlleee?

Lets face it the most likely outcome of fronting up to a burglar is losing.  This pensioner guy probably got lucky.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Thread's about to get surreal ...





> slaughtered in your sleep


Peak something-or-other reached.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> That will be of great comfort to your orphaned kids after you were slaughtered in your sleep.
> 
> "At least it was a really rare type of murder" said no one who lost someone to a rare murder.


So how many actual examples of children burglars "slaughtering people in their sleep" can you find for the UK in, say, the last five years?

Any at all?


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> That will be of great comfort to your orphaned kids after you were slaughtered in your sleep.
> 
> "At least it was a really rare type of murder" said no one who lost someone to a rare murder.



Don't worry, every day I fill my kids with fear about how awful and violent modern Britain is. I'm sure as they'll grow I'll be proud when they glass some guy in a pub for spilling his pint.

You currently have a 1:1,000,000 chance of being murdered in the UK. You have a higher chance of getting breast cancer as man than being the victim of a violent crime.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> This is one of the most male threads on Urban (outside of the railway threads).  Do no female urbs want to come on here and fantasize about what they'd do if someone threatened their faaammlleee?
> 
> Lets face it the most likely outcome of fronting up to a burglar is losing.  This pensioner guy probably got lucky.


Traditionally it's been the man's role to confront burglars but as we strive towards equality it's perfectly reasonable to say 'fuck you, we've been challenging then for generations, your turn'.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

This could go for days a quick google will end most questions. 

However I am not sure but the details of murder by child cut throats goes back proberly centuries. 
   A 13 yr old was killed in London, as well as three other children and a man being stabbed, just this past weekend.

But if it were me or any of my family, who haven't served in the forces, I would say it irrisponsible even foolhardy to tackle a guy-half-your-age and kill them. We may never the truth was it a struggle to the death or something more macarb. 

The law is not set in stone and times are a changing...not for good it seems.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

bemused said:


> About 4% of murders are committed during a theft..


That's higher than I might have expected. Have a source for that?


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> That's higher than I might have expected. Have a source for that?



ONS - Homicide - Office for National Statistics


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

bemused said:


> Don't worry, every day I fill my kids with fear about how awful and violent modern Britain is. I'm sure as they'll grow I'll be proud when they glass some guy in a pub for spilling his pint.
> 
> You currently have a 1:1,000,000 chance of being murdered in the UK. You have a higher chance of getting breast cancer as man than being the victim of a violent crime.


That high? We totally need to give the state more police powers and gain control of our borders again.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So how many actual examples of children burglars "slaughtering people in their sleep" can you find for the UK in, say, the last five years?
> 
> Any at all?


The victims have to asleep? 

Have heard a teenager trying to be quiet.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> That high? We totally need to give the state more police powers and gain control of our borders again.


In case you missed it: how many actual examples of children burglars "slaughtering people in their sleep" can you find for the UK in, say, the last five years?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> Traditionally it's been the man's role to confront burglars but as we strive towards equality it's perfectly reasonable to say 'fuck you, we've been challenging then for generations, your turn'.


I expect you'll claim this was irony.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

extra dry said:


> The victims have to asleep?
> 
> Have heard a teenager trying to be quiet.


They slip in when you're sleeping and then it's a bloody SLAUGHTER all over the UK!


----------



## girasol (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> This is one of the most male threads on Urban (outside of the railway threads).  Do no female urbs want to come on here and fantasize about what they'd do if someone threatened their faaammlleee?
> 
> Lets face it the most likely outcome of fronting up to a burglar is losing.  This pensioner guy probably got lucky.



I do have a hefty torch by the bed, it has a very bright light, so my plan of action (i.e. fantasy) would be to disorient the burglar with the bright light and shout at them to get the fuck out of my house.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

girasol said:


> I do have a hefty torch by the bed, it has a very bright light, so my plan of action (i.e. fantasy) would be to disorient the burglar with the bright light and shout at them to get the fuck out of my house.


Will that be enough to scare off a child sleep slaughterer though? Best get an AK 47 just to be safe. No one want to be a sleep slaughtered statistic.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Don't children ever commit burglaries then?
> 
> Oh why yes they do, Fucking loads of them:
> One-in-six suspected burglars are children as more than 17,000 minors arrested


Not quite sure what your point is here. The law is clear. Self defense, including lethal force, is allowed as long as it is deemed in line to the perceived threat at the time. So it doesn’t really matter how old a burglar may be. It’s unlikely any of us would see a 6 year old and think they’re about to murder us. A big teenager, maybe.

Either way they get encouraged to fuck off and hopefully they do.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Not quite sure what your point is here. The law is clear. Self defense, including lethal force, is allowed as long as it is deemed in line to the perceived threat at the time. So it doesn’t really matter how old a burglar may be. It’s unlikely any of us would see a 6 year old and think they’re about to murder us. A big teenager, maybe.
> 
> Either way they get encouraged to fuck off and hopefully they do.


The point being that you sneered when I brought up the point about many burglaries being committed by children, as if it was a fantastic notion.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 6, 2018)

Let the geezer go and buy him a bottle of malt.


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Will that be enough to scare off a child sleep slaughterer though? Best get an AK 47 just to be safe. No one want to be a sleep slaughtered statistic.



I've found the best way to deter the hordes of murderous children from my home is to turn the wifi off before I go to sleep and place a Nintendo Wii under my CRT TV.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

girasol said:


> I do have a hefty torch by the bed, it has a very bright light, so my plan of action (i.e. fantasy) would be to disorient the burglar with the bright light and shout at them to get the fuck out of my house.


If this is a genuine deliberate plan I can improve it for you. Invest in a tactical torch with a strobe function. A strong LED strobe will disorient far better than just a strong beam.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> If this is a genuine deliberate plan I can improve it for you. Invest in a tactical torch with a strobe function. A strong LED strobe will disorient far better than just a strong beam.


How many times have you had to fend off burglars yourself then?


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> They slip in when you're sleeping and then it's a bloody SLAUGHTER all over the UK!



Iron Maiden my first album, Murders in the Rue Mougue


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> The point being that you sneered when I brought up the point about many burglaries being committed by children, as if it was a fantastic notion.



I took it as sneering at your "think of the children" response to someone saying they would twat a burglar.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

girasol said:


> I do have a hefty torch by the bed, it has a very bright light, so my plan of action (i.e. fantasy) would be to disorient the burglar with the bright light and shout at them to get the fuck out of my house.



What if, and a topic for my students, they are disorentated and fall? 

Breaking an arm or shattering their spine? What would you do? 

A.call the police, 
B.call an ambulance or
C. drag them outside to let fend for themselves

 I am interested as a tricky/experence fuelled moral dilema my students will have to struggle with tomorrow. 

  I need some sleep, and after reading all this, double bolting the door and windows tonight.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Big difference between broken arm and shattered spine, might do something different for each one.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

There both bad as your in someones bedroom.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

extra dry said:


> There both bad as your in someones bedroom.



Specifically, I'm in *my* bedroom.

edit: They're


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

What the fuck have children got to do with this????

And being slaughtered in your sleep????


----------



## likesfish (Apr 6, 2018)

Burglars shouldn't be killed as a matter of course. but I'm not going to discuss if they intend to do me harm If I encounter one in my house they can run away or if It comes to a fight I'm going to stop them which means inflicting enough hurt to stop them any way I can.
 if they die well tough burglar runs fine if they don't. I  don't have any problem at all with them being killed.
  once I stopped them I'd, of course, phone and ambulance render first aid might be too late by then though.
  Dont have any weapons close at hand and the dog would probably chase them off.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

likesfish said:


> if they die well tough burglar runs fine if they don't.



Nope, still not getting it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 6, 2018)

extra dry said:


> What if, and a topic for my students, they are disorentated and fall?
> 
> Breaking an arm or shattering their spine? What would you do?
> 
> ...



Dump them on the street and wish them the best of British luck I reckon. Calling an ambulance is likely to also bring police to the scene if you mention a break-in/intruder, and the police are 102% guaranteed to turn an already stressful situation into a complete horror show.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What the fuck have children got to do with this????



Well, some burglars are children, and if you twat a child with the force you'd twat a man with, you could kill a child.
So by saying you'd twat a burglar, you are endorsing the killing of children.

The logic is watertight, really.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Burglars shouldn't be killed as a matter of course. but I'm not going to discuss if they intend to do me harm If I encounter one in my house they can run away or if It comes to a fight I'm going to stop them which means inflicting enough hurt to stop them any way I can.
> if they die well tough burglar runs fine if they don't. I  don't have any problem at all with them being killed.
> once I stopped them I'd, of course, phone and ambulance render first aid might be too late by then though.
> Dont have any weapons close at hand and the dog would probably chase them off.



I bet you'd lose.  To be frank I bet most of the people giving it the big one on this thread would lose.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I bet you'd lose.  To be frank I bet most of the people giving it the big one on this thread would lose.



I think they'd be pretty drug-addled to be trying to burgle me - I'm struggling to think of anything worth nicking. 
They'd more than likely hurt themselves tripping over the mess, which would enhance my chances.

Plus the place looks like its already been done over.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> That's higher than I might have expected. Have a source for that?



That didn't surprise TBH, considering the link I posted earlier showing 400-500 people are assaulted by burglars every week in the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I bet you'd lose.  To be frank I bet most of the people giving it the big one on this thread would lose.


Or cry out for new trousers


----------



## likesfish (Apr 6, 2018)

ex-infantry so surprisingly angry when riled


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

likesfish said:


> ex-infantry so surprisingly angry when riled



Always thought 'infantry' should refer to a place where they grow infants.
Actually...


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

likesfish said:


> ex-infantry so surprisingly angry when riled


Fucking hell, were you in the army then? 

You kept that quiet!


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking hell, were you in the army then?
> 
> You kept that quiet!


I always thought he was TA because of his avatar.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> I always thought he was TA because of his avatar.


I always thought he was in Dad's Army because of his avatar.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

I love how this thread has turned into a battle of the strawmen. On one side, a strawman who would grab a 12-year-old burglar as they climbed out of the window and slowly beat them to death, on the other, a strawman who would get down on their hands and knees and beg the burglar to take everything they have. Nobody here actually espouses either of those positions but I guess it's more fun to pretend they do than admit we're mostly in agreement.



Teaboy said:


> This is one of the most male threads on Urban (outside of the railway threads).  Do no female urbs want to come on here and fantasize about what they'd do if someone threatened their faaammlleee?
> 
> Lets face it the most likely outcome of fronting up to a burglar is losing.  This pensioner guy probably got lucky.



I'm still female. Though I'm also quite badly disabled so the chances of me winning a fight with anyone would be pretty low. 

My ex does still ask me to go and check what's happening if she thinks there's someone in the house. I think most burglars would leg it if they knew someone was there so I make lots of noise as I go round. There never has been anyone, so if there ever is, my plan is to yell weird things, pull stupid faces and basically make them think they're being confronted by a nutter and encourage them to run. My enormous Medusan bed hair makes me look insane without any effort, so that helps, and I sleep naked except for a massive plastic splint on my arm which looks a little odd. I also quite like the idea of using a shield - an actual shield, the kind you get for fancy dress, that you loop over your arm - because then I could protect myself and they couldn't take it off me to attack me with, like they probably could with any actual weapon. So, naked screaming crazy limping Medusa with a splint and a shield; I think it'd probably work as well as any other plan in this thread.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 6, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Let the geezer go and buy him a bottle of malt.



You are so kind, hence the name top cat.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Listen guys the guy was cornered by a man wielding a screwdriver, so now everyone supporting him wants to murder a child without checking first ? What's going on


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Let the geezer go and buy him a bottle of malt.


1. Sexist. Assuming it's a him. 
2. How do you do that whilst tied to a chair?
I guess technically you will be buying them lots of drinks with the money they get fencing your belongings and credit cards.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I always thought he was in Dad's Army because of his avatar.


Mike isn't in Dad's Army.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Listen guys the guy was cornered by a man wielding a screwdriver, so now everyone supporting him wants to murder a child without checking first ? What's going on



I don't think we have any info on what happened in that house. For all we know the home owner may have stabbed him in the back as he tried to escape.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Listen guys the guy was cornered by a man wielding a screwdriver, so now everyone supporting him wants to murder a child without checking first ? What's going on



Every single person here is supporting him (assuming it went down as reported, which seems very likely) but some people are making things up about other people's POV, presumably because they're bored.


----------



## Grump (Apr 6, 2018)

editor said:


> So burglary = punishable by instant death, yes?


If you are in fear of your safety or the safety of those around you, yes. I understand the guy had a wife with Alzheimer's and he was terrified these scum would hurt her. In a decent, socialist society we will eliminate the cruel and anti social just as this chap has done.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Listen guys the guy was cornered by a man wielding a screwdriver, so now everyone supporting him wants to murder a child without checking first ? What's going on


It was never a great thread but fuck me it's nosedived over the last few pages. 

#killchildburglars


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

Grump said:


> If you are in fear of your safety or the safety of those around you, yes. I understand the guy had a wife with Alzheimer's and he was terrified these scum would hurt her. In a decent, socialist society we will eliminate the cruel and anti social just as this chap has done.



Oh FFS. You KNOW he wasn't talking about this bloke but responding to someone who was grandstanding.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Every single person here is supporting him (assuming it went down as reported, which seems very likely) but some people are making things up about other people's POV, presumably because they're bored.


That's surely assumption as many haven't stated either way.


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 6, 2018)

Grump said:


> In a decent, socialist society we will eliminate the cruel and anti social



#killautisticsNOW

oh. not that type of anti-social right? i'm sure it would be easy to write a law around your thoughts


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Grump said:


> If you are in fear of your safety or the safety of those around you, yes. I understand the guy had a wife with Alzheimer's and he was terrified these scum would hurt her. In a decent, socialist society we will eliminate the cruel and anti social just as this chap has done.



Popcorn now available at crazy prices!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I don't think we have any info on what happened in that house. For all we know the home owner may have stabbed him in the back as he tried to escape.


Oh well we never will tbf as it can only ever be hearsay, DNA not quite action replay. Close thread


----------



## likesfish (Apr 6, 2018)

Break into someones home and threaten there kids and most men will go batshit its primal


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> That's surely assumption as many haven't stated either way.



Yes, I'm assuming that most people wouldn't intentionally kill a child burglar who was trying to get away so nolonger a danger to them and theirs, and I'm also assuming that most people wouldn't actually hand over all their worldly goods while expressing sympathy with the burglar. Unless anyone wants to out themselves as actually espousing either of those positions then I think my assumptions are sound.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 6, 2018)

BBC: Police say he faces no further action.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Arrested man will face no further action.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Break into someones home and threaten there kids and most men will go batshit its primal



Sadly as someone who has no children I will never be given the superpowers that come with having sex without contraception.  I'll be an easy target for the rest of my life.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Break into someones home and threaten there kids and most men will go batshit its primal





scifisam said:


> Yes, I'm assuming that most people wouldn't intentionally kill a child burglar who was trying to get away so nolonger a danger to them and theirs, and I'm also assuming that most people wouldn't actually hand over all their worldly goods while expressing sympathy with the burglar. Unless anyone wants to out themselves as actually espousing either of those positions then I think my assumptions are sound.


Are you trolling now? I obviously meant its not clear every person in thread supports 78 year old man. Drop your weapon lass!


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

2hats said:


> BBC: Police say he faces no further action.



That was a quick investigation.  Friday evening I guess.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

2hats said:


> BBC: Police say he faces no further action.



Well, it seemed the most likely outcome.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeah and I am not convinced most men would go batshit to protect their kids. It's hard to get them to even get out of bed without screaming at them to look after their kids IME


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

/sexist generalisation


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Yeah and I am not convinced most men would go batshit to protect their kids. It's hard to get them to even get out of bed without screaming at them to look after their kids IME



Yeah but that's women's stuff.  THIS IS PRIMAL!!!11!!!

Fuckin do time I would, just don't tempt me.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Yes, I'm assuming that most people wouldn't intentionally kill a child burglar who was trying to get away so nolonger a danger to them and theirs, and I'm also assuming that most people wouldn't actually hand over all their worldly goods while expressing sympathy with the burglar. Unless anyone wants to out themselves as actually espousing either of those positions then I think my assumptions are sound.


Introducing child burglars is a ridiculous strawman.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah but that's women's stuff.  THIS IS PRIMAL!!!11!!!



Like barbecues.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah but that's women's stuff.  THIS IS PRIMAL!!!11!!!
> 
> Fuckin do time I would, just don't tempt me.


I will try it. YOUR CHILD IS DYING lol soz I just wanna go see Arcade Fire


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

The worst thing about killing a burglar wouldn’t be the 24 hours in police custody it would be the 16 Daily Mail articles about you and what you said to Noreen down the road last week.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Introducing child burglars is a ridiculous strawman.



The logic is too perfect.  Don’t even try taking it on.  Aristotle would leg it if you hit him with logic like that.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Are you trolling now? I obviously meant its not clear every person in thread supports 78 year old man. Drop your weapon lass!



Nah, I think most people have either said directly that they support him or didn't say it because even for the softest bastard here it doesn't need saying.


----------



## RainbowTown (Apr 6, 2018)

Sadly, there are no real winners in all this. A young man is dead, and an old man and his wife, approaching the last years of their lives, end their days probably scarred and terrified by what has occurred in their own home. The old man, in particular, will probably live out his time consumed with some guilt and remorse that he ended another's man's life, even though the circumstances surrounding it all was just Fate playing a bad deal on him and the victim. Pretty sad all round.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 6, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> Sadly, there are no real winners in all this. A young man is dead, and an old man and his wife, approaching the last years of their lives, end their days probably scarred and terrified by what has occurred in their own home. The old man, in particular, will probably live out his time consumed with some guilt and remorse that he ended another's man's life, even though the circumstances surrounding it all was just Fate playing a bad deal on him and the victim. Pretty sad all round.



Yes, well said.  Also to add that he may spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder as well.  They may even have to move.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Yes, well said.  Also to add that he may spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder as well.  They may even have to move.


I was thinking that earlier. If the dead twat is from a scumbag family they'll likely want revenge.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

andysays said:


> Shakes fist at the liberal left for not pandering to what you and Tommy Robinson imagine are universally held working class prejudices by immediately tweeting to juxtapose the quick arrest of the pensioner against the decades of inaction against Muslim grooming gangs
> 
> Contrary to what's been claimed here, no-one I know has mentioned their outrage at the arrest of this pensioner, and most would regard any cynical attempt to link this case to so-called "muslim grooming gangs" with the contempt it deserves, because not every member of the working class is as susceptible to bigotry as you seem to be and seem to believe everyone else is.
> 
> And the idea that TR is regarded as the voice of reason beyond you and a handful of other twats who wank away over his every utterance is a joke, but I'm sure he's very grateful for your tireless work on his behalf.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> That was a quick investigation.  Friday evening I guess.


Yeah, I was thinking that. It was pretty much the _inevitable_ outcome, but I thought they'd go through the motions a bit longer. Might be wrong, but afaik they haven't caught the 2nd perp yet have they (potential witness?)?  Almost as if the OB have uncovered the burglar's history of preying on the elderly and thought 'fuck him'.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> That was a quick investigation.  Friday evening I guess.



No, it wasn't quick, it should have been over the second they saw how old the bloke was!

Good, though. Glad they made the decision and got it out quickly. Hope the other burglar's caught soon and the old bloke (hadn't seen the photo before - it's awesome) has a lot of support after what happened to him. Doesn't sound like just going home will be that easy for him, given the dead bloke's really fucking dodgy family and the other bloke not being found, but moving wouldn't be easy either because it never is, but especially when your 78 and your wife's got dementia. 

One upside of the publicity could be that the couple do actually get some help if they want to move or not.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

scifisam said:


> No, it wasn't quick, it should have been over the second they saw how old the bloke was!
> 
> Good, though. Glad they made the decision and got it out quickly. Hope the other burglar's caught soon and the old bloke (hadn't seen the photo before - it's awesome) has a lot of support after what happened to him. Doesn't sound like just going home will be that easy for him, given the dead bloke's really fucking dodgy family and the other bloke not being found, but moving wouldn't be easy either because it never is, but especially when your 78 and your wife's got dementia.
> 
> One upside of the publicity could be that the couple do actually get some help if they want to move or not.


I never expected to take long. 
I presumed the investigation went like this:
 Was the screwdriver brought by the burglar or not. 
 It doesn't match any screwdriver set in said house. 
 Double-check. Nope. 
 Defensive wounds ? Yes.
 Definitely not self inflicted. Expert says no. 

 Case closed.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 6, 2018)

Time/money spent on Princess Di case - Suspect: Prince PHilip - fucking ages/loads
Time/money spent on burglar case - Suspect: 2 Pints Guinness man - 20 minutes/50p.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I was thinking that earlier. If the dead twat is from a scumbag family they'll likely want revenge.



On the plus side they’re now minus one member.


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> Sadly, there are no real winners in all this. A young man is dead, and an old man and his wife, approaching the last years of their lives, end their days probably scarred and terrified by what has occurred in their own home. The old man, in particular, will probably live out his time consumed with some guilt and remorse that he ended another's man's life, even though the circumstances surrounding it all was just Fate playing a bad deal on him and the victim. Pretty sad all round.



I don't know, judging by some comments some people dream of the day they can corner an intruder in their house and stab the shit out of them.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> I never expected to take long.
> I presumed the investigation went like this:
> Was the screwdriver brought by the burglar or not.
> It doesn't match any screwdriver set in said house.
> ...



Well, we don't know if that's how it actually went down - it was probably a little more complicated especially considering there was another burglar involved - and it probably takes a bit longer to do all that than to type it up on a messageboard.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> Mike isn't in Dad's Army.


No, but he looks like he should have been


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

bemused said:


> I don't know, judging by some comments some people dream of the day they can corner an intruder in their house and stab the shit out of them.


Nah, that's silly, they've been presented with a situation where a nefarious character breaks in wielding a screwdriver and they are saying what they would do. That doesn't mean they want it to happen, and they also realise it's words and bravado, god knows I was only half serious when I said I would totes go full neeson, my words are not deeds like


----------



## Wilf (Apr 6, 2018)

It's the slippery slope that worries me. All over the country pensioners will now be on Amazon buying Kalashnikovs and samurai swords.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

bemused said:


> I don't know, judging by some comments some people dream of the day they can corner an intruder in their house and stab the shit out of them.



The fucking state of this.

‘Corner an intruder’ - a struggle over a screwdriver carried by the perp ends with him getting a stab wound. The pensioner has defensive bruising 

‘Stab the shit’ - no information on anything more than one stab wound

‘Dream of the day’ - point me to one poster ‘dreaming’ of being woken in the night by two people in their house tooled up.

This thread is abysmal


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Wilf said:


> It's the slippery slope that worries me. All over the country pensioners will now be on Amazon buying Kalashnikovs and samurai swords.



I'll raise it with all the homes i work at next week- SUPERVISED Ipad usage!


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The fucking state of this.
> 
> ‘Corner an intruder’ - a struggle over a screwdriver carried by the perp ends.
> 
> ...



Does everyone on this site deliberately misinterpret posts to sustain an argument?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Does everyone on this site deliberately misinterpret posts to sustain an argument?


Urban would be dead if not


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Does everyone on this site deliberately misinterpret posts to sustain an argument?



Yeah apologies, Bemusing synthesised the arguments on this thread perfectly


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Does everyone on this site deliberately misinterpret posts to sustain an argument?


Yes every burglar does it to give Urban an argument


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

Gromit said:


> Yes every burglar does it to give Urban an argument



I’ve burgled twice, both times I was a teenager and legally a child.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> I’ve burgled twice, both times I was a teenager and legally a child.


Who did you burgle?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

2hats said:


> BBC: Police say he faces no further action.



As expected, also worth noting...



> Det Ch Insp Harding said: "While there might be various forms of debate about which processes should be used in cases such as this, it was important that the resident was interviewed by officers under the appropriate legislation; not only for the integrity of our investigation but also so that his personal and legal rights were protected."



Common sense all round. 

Now give the guy a medal for bravely.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> As expected, also worth noting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Police bollocks all round rather.  Whatever the legalistic bollocks the worst he should have been charged with was manslaughter, rather than terrifying the guy with a murder charge and keeping him in.  Useless Police fuckwits.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Police bollocks all round rather.  Whatever the legalistic bollocks the worst he should have been charged with was manslaughter, rather than terrifying the guy with a murder charge and keeping him in.  Useless Police fuckwits.



When someone is killed as a result of the direct actions of another it is normal to arrest them for murder, after the investigation and it comes to charging then it often gets dropped to manslaughter, that decision is taken by the CPS.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> As expected, also worth noting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. By legally arresting him and going through the due process they've probably protected him from legal harm in the future. If anyone says "who knows, maybe... [something or other bad against the householder]" they've probably got evidence to refute that.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 6, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This thread is abysmal



I agree entirely, but for nowhere near the same (apparant) reason as you.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Does everyone on this site deliberately misinterpret posts to sustain an argument?


 
We would waste a lot less bandwidthz were this not the case.


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Yeah. By legally arresting him and going through the due process they've probably protected him from legal harm in the future. If anyone says "who knows, maybe... [something or other bad against the householder]" they've probably got evidence to refute that.



You'd be very silly to consent to a voluntary interview under caution. Once you are arrested you're covered PACE and have a range of rights and protections.


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Police bollocks all round rather.  Whatever the legalistic bollocks the worst he should have been charged with was manslaughter, rather than terrifying the guy with a murder charge and keeping him in.  Useless Police fuckwits.



They didn't charge him.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

By all accounts the burglar was a scumbag who did  time for his specialism in life which appears to be extracting valuables from old people in their own home. I haven't bothered reading the whole thread but arrests need to be justified by PACE code G https://www.justice-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/doj/pace-code-g-2015-.pdf



> 2.3 A constable may arrest without warrant in relation to any offence (see Notes 1 and 1A) anyone: • who is about to commit an offence or is in the act of committing an offence; • whom the officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting is about to commit an offence or to be committing an offence; • whom the officer has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of an offence which he or she has reasonable grounds for suspecting has been committed; • anyone who is guilty of an offence which has been committed or anyone whom the officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of that offence. 2.3A There must be some reasonable, objective grounds for the suspicion, based on known facts and information which are relevant to the likelihood the offence has been committed and the person liable to arrest committed it. See Notes 2 and 2A. (b) Necessity criteria 2.4 The power of arrest is only exercisable if the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that it is necessary to arrest the person. The statutory criteria for what may constitute necessity are set out in paragraph 2.9 and it remains an operational decision at the discretion of the constable to decide: • which one or more of the necessity criteria (if any) applies to the individual; and • if any of the criteria do apply, whether to arrest, grant street bail after arrest, report for summons or for charging by post, issue a penalty notice or take any other action that is open to the officer.



What possible grounds would the arresting constable have for a "reasonable, objective grounds for suspicion" of murder in these circumstances? The home owner should have been offered a cup of tea, protection for the night and advice on having full alarms/ alert to the police station in case of repercussions.

The Martin case is entirely different, from what I remember the guy had been lying in wait with a shotgun behind a door.

 If someone comes through your door armed when you are asleep you have every right to use reasonable force to defend yourself. English law is in some ways stronger than all the  "stand your ground" nonsense prevalent in some US states such as Florida. The problem appears to be inept Police failing to have common sense in implementing it. I remember a case of a sub-post master  who killed a man who came into his Post Office with a shot gun using a string cutter and was not even arrested - seems entirely reasonable to me. Postmaster's distress over killing of armed robber


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

bemused said:


> They didn't charge him.



It has amazed me this week that so many people don't understand the different between 'arrest' & 'charge'.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

Wrong thread


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2018)

kenny g said:


> I haven't bothered reading the whole thread but arrests need to be justified by PACE code G https://www.justice-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/doj/pace-code-g-2015-.pdf
> 
> ---
> What possible grounds would the arresting constable have for a "reasonable, objective grounds for suspicion" of murder in these circumstances?



Perhaps you should read the thread & get an understanding, instead of wading in with nonsense & making a tit of yourself?


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

kenny g said:


> By all accounts the burglar was a scumbag who did  time for his specialism in life which appears to be extracting valuables from old people in their own home. I haven't bothered reading the whole thread but arrests need to be justified by PACE code G https://www.justice-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/doj/pace-code-g-2015-.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Post Offices have CCTV. Need for investigation is pretty much negated by instant access to video evidence.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Perhaps you should read the thread & get an understanding, instead of wading in with nonsense & making a tit of yourself?



Not sure where the sign is that one needs to read through a 17 page thread before making a comment Mr Stunt?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

And BTW - not entirely sure "making a tit of yourself" is a the kind of misogynist comment that belongs on these boards or this century.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> It has amazed me this week that so many people don't understand the different between 'arrest' & 'charge'.


I think we get that, but he shouldn't  have been arrested in the first place.  and if OB thought they had to, then what grounds did they seriously have for arresting him for murder rather than manslaughter?

I think events since indicate just how badly the police fucked this up.  There isn't a jury in  this land, outside Pentonville, that is going to find this guy guilty of anything.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

I would love to see him sue for unlawful arrest.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're back to the beginning of the thread again


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 6, 2018)

so...

is the consensus then, that if the police find someone dead of stab wounds at or near a residential dwelling, and someone says they are a householder and that the deceased was a burglar then the plod on the ground should just say "oh, ok then" and leave it at that?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> so...
> 
> is the consensus then, that if the police find someone dead of stab wounds at or near a residential dwelling, and someone says they are a householder and that the deceased was a burglar then the plod on the ground should just say "oh, ok then" and leave it at that?


Don't think it's a consensus but there certainly seems to be a few folk who think that plod should have immediately accepted the old boy's version without question, tucked him back into bed and fucked off.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> so...
> 
> is the consensus then, that if the police find someone dead of stab wounds at or near a residential dwelling, and someone says they are a householder and that the deceased was a burglar then the plod on the ground should just say "oh, ok then" and leave it at that?


No. But there are no grounds for charging the guy with _murder_. If you were attacked and in defending yourself killed the attacker would you expect to be arrested for murder?  How would the Urban massive react if a black kid killed a white racist in self defence, or a woman killed an abuser?  or a rapist who jumped her?  

This was never murder and OB fucked up big time.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> But there are no grounds for charging the guy with _murder_.


He wasn't charged with anything.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> so...
> 
> is the consensus then, that if the police find someone dead of stab wounds at or near a residential dwelling, and someone says they are a householder and that the deceased was a burglar then the plod on the ground should just say "oh, ok then" and leave it at that?



Yeah they should have arrested his wife too though. Just lying in bed claiming she had dementia or something while someone is being killed downstairs?


----------



## bemused (Apr 6, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> It has amazed me this week that so many people don't understand the different between 'arrest' & 'charge'.



Or the fact that arresting him protected him.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

The police should have made him a cup of tea, asked if he needed any relatives called, and recommended him for a Chief Constables commendation. An inquest will take place in due course.


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> How would the Urban massive react if a black kid killed a white racist in self defence, or a woman killed an abuser?  or a rapist who jumped her?



All these things you mention have obvious power dynamics going on in them. 

There’s a difference.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> He wasn't charged with anything.


Sorry, sloppy post,  he was "held" on suspicion of murder?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> All these things you mention have obvious power dynamics going on in them.
> 
> There’s a difference.


 What between a 78 year old carer in his own home and a convicted scum bag burglar?


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 6, 2018)

kenny g said:


> What between a 78 year old carer in his own home and a convicted scum bag burglar?



Yes. 

Nice use of emotive language though.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Sorry, sloppy post,  he was "held" on suspicion of murder?


It's standard practice. Read the first 3 pages of this thread.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 6, 2018)

Either the police actually suspected he committed murder or we accept that they can arrest people under false pretences just to make their job easier.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)




----------



## planetgeli (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Either the police actually suspected he committed murder or we accept that they can arrest people under false pretences just to make their job easier.



Do you know the phrase ‘false dichotomy’? You just presented one well.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

Having been the victim of 4 burglaries it is quite possible that I don't have a very logical approach to this question and may, indeed, not give a flying fuck what the filth's standard practice is.  Comrade.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Having been the victim of 4 burglaries it is quite possible that I don't have a very logical approach to this question and may, indeed, not give a flying fuck what the filth's standard practice is.  Comrade.


Well, do you think it's wise to post on a subject if you don't give a flying fuck about the detail? 

It's standard practice for perfectly good reason.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I was thinking that earlier. If the dead twat is from a scumbag family they'll likely want revenge.


The comments from the family member weren't especially encouraging in that regard.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

I think as someone who has been through the grief of being burgled, I think that my views are relevent.  And  I've just heard on the news that all charges have been dropped against the guy,. 

No further action after 'burglar' death 

so I'll live with what I've posted.  I've certainly posted worse bollocks!  and I have no reason to have a row with you Spy.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> I think as someone who has been through the grief of being burgled, I think that my views are relevent.  And  I've just heard on the news that all charges have been dropped against the guy,.
> 
> No further action after 'burglar' death
> 
> so I'll live with what I've posted.  I've certainly posted worse bollocks!  and I have no reason to have a row with you Spy.


Lol! We're not having a row  

You're just raising a point that has been comprehensively dealt with already.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

existentialist said:


> The comments from the family member weren't especially encouraging in that regard.


What were they?


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I was thinking that earlier. If the dead twat is from a scumbag family they'll likely want revenge.



OK.

OK.

It’s only a “scumbag family” that might want revenge.

A killing type revenge.

Gotcha.

But it’s ok...ok...for any ‘common sense, reasonable, right thinking Urban 75er’ to think it alright to kill someone for burglary. And that doesn’t involve scumbaggery at all.

At all.

I’m sure I’ve misunderstood something somewhere. Don’t worry about me.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

Obviously if I was sitting in the back garden - as has happened - and a bloke wandered in through the side gate because there wasn't a car in the drive I wouldn't be justified in jumping out of my deck chair grabbing a maglight and clubbing him to death. The best option would obviously be to ask him what the fuck he was doing and hear some lame excuse.  If, on the other hand, I woke up in the middle of the night hearing noises downstairs and with my family in the home I went down to investigate to be met by a man with a weapon it would be entirely reasonable for me to use physical force to get him out of the house. If I was in fear of my own and my families safety that proportionate force may result in the intruders unfortunate death. An inquest, rather than cross examination after an  unwarranted arrest, being the best legal forum to examine that death.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> But it’s ok...ok...for any ‘common sense, reasonable, right thinking Urban 75er’ to think it alright to kill someone for burglary.


Of course. They're burglars. Fuck 'em.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> OK.
> 
> OK.
> 
> ...



You ever been burgled? ever had kids who can't sleep at night or can't even face going to their bedrooms at night after a burglary?

I'm not suggesting all burglers should die.  I understand why shit like that happens. Poverty, drugs etc - it is shit.  

But if you commit a crime like that and shit happens in the process, well bad fucking luck.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> if you commit a crime like that and shit happens in the process, well bad fucking luck.



Pre fucking cisely.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> You ever been burgled? ever had kids who can't sleep at night or can't even face going to their bedrooms at night after a burglary?
> 
> I'm not suggesting all burglers should die.  I understand why shit like that happens. Poverty, drugs etc - it is shit.
> 
> But if you commit a crime like that and shit happens in the process, well bad fucking luck.


Best to avoid killing someone but obvs if it’s true that the old man was backed into a kitchen by two armed men it somewhat limits his options.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> OK.
> 
> OK.
> 
> ...


Not only scumbag families want revenge but they are the ones to be scared of as they are more likely to act upon those desires.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 6, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> And  I've just heard on the news that all charges have been dropped against the guy,.
> 
> No further action after 'burglar' death



Charges were never brought against him. There were no charges to drop. He was questioned and released. It's what happens.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What were they?


I shall have to dig them out, and I am pissed, musiced out, and tired - they were in the Telegraph article linked to earlier in the thread. Essentially, they were minimising his role in the thing, and being very sorry that he'd been killed. I picked up undertones of unfairness that it should have happened - the sort of position that can, with a goodly dose of righteous indignation, turn into resentment against the person who was responsible for the killing (OK, we all know that that person was the burglar, but it didn't feel like the family member thought so). If I find it, I'll post the link and a quote.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 6, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Charges were never brought against him. There were no charges to drop. He was questioned and released. It's what happens.


 I'm sorry, but being arrested is far more than being "questioned". A police officer  is welcome to ask me questions but if he chooses to arrest me that means he is taking a substantial part of my liberty away and the law quite clearly recognises the difference. I would usually  agree if a death had occurred in my presence to attend a police station the next day to hear a constable's questions. If I were arrested outside the Codes of PACE I would sue.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> OK.
> 
> OK.
> 
> ...


TBF - and I'm not sure Spymaster's particular rhetorical style helps here - the situation does rather have to be one of "if you live by the swordscrewdriver, then be prepared to die by the screwdriver". Regardless of scumbag families, etc., this guy took a risk - a risk that would usually pay off nicely - and on this occasion, through whatever combination of circumstance and misfortune prevailed, it didn't. It isn't unreasonable to speculate what a family which, according to public record, appears to involve at the very least, a culture of crime, might think about that happening. And, indeed, what they might choose to do about it - this is, after all, a family of which three generations have been convicted for crimes against vulnerable elderly people, so they might reasonably be assumed not to be particularly unencumbered by moral strictures. If I were that 78 year old, i'd certainly be pondering my options wrt a place in the country...


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2018)

kenny g said:


> I'm sorry, but being arrested is far more than being "questioned". A police officer  is welcome to ask me questions but if he chooses to arrest me that means he is taking a substantial part of my liberty away and the law quite clearly recognises the difference. I would usually  agree if a death had occurred in my presence to attend a police station the next day to hear a constable's questions. If I were arrested outside the Codes of PACE I would sue.


I think that, if you have stabbed someone to death, it's not unreasonable to expect to be arrested on suspicion of murder. I can't see how that could possibly breach PACE. We know the death didn't merely "occur in his presence", but that he was responsible for it happening - or at least that there was reasonable suspicion that he was. The point, surely, is - and this is one the media frequently constructively misinterpret, inevitably to their own ends - that arrest means nothing in terms of guilt.


----------



## coley (Apr 6, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I will be purchasing a five iron for the golf range, it doesn't knock the ball a huge distance, but does send it up in the sky very satisfactorily. It will be kept at the top of the stairs, in case there is need to investigate noises in the night.


And should you use it on an intruder,  rest assured, the Polis will spend more time 'investigating' why you kept it on the "top of the stairs" 
Rather than in a golf bag.......


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 6, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I shall have to dig them out, and I am pissed, musiced out, and tired - they were in the Telegraph article linked to earlier in the thread. Essentially, they were minimising his role in the thing, and being very sorry that he'd been killed. I picked up undertones of unfairness that it should have happened - the sort of position that can, with a goodly dose of righteous indignation, turn into resentment against the person who was responsible for the killing (OK, we all know that that person was the burglar, but it didn't feel like the family member thought so). If I find it, I'll post the link and a quote.





> His uncle Stevie, who lives close to his home in Orpington, said: “We’re in mourning here. We don’t want to talk about what’s been said about Henry. We’ve already had the Old Bill round here. We’re not commenting on anything.”
> 
> His cousin, who was not identified, told the BBC she was angry Mr Osborn-Brooks had been bailed.  "I don't know what happened in that home. But all I do know is that my cousin is dead today," she said.
> 
> ...


----------



## coley (Apr 6, 2018)

hot air baboon said:


> my sister's local plod in the West Country reccommended one of those whacking great metal maglite torches - it'd need the batteries to give it some heft though


Same here, "as long as it's not an article that shouldn't be 'out of place".. ..coppers aren't that 'robotic' ..  yet-


----------



## coley (Apr 6, 2018)

Grump said:


> I prefer to go with what is considered reasonable in the eyes of the community rather than 'the law'.


Odd, most of the "community" was on Martins side, yet the police (supposedly) 'police' with the publics consent!?


----------



## coley (Apr 6, 2018)

xenon said:


> Oh god. please not the hardman weapon talk though.
> 
> Sad.


A fire extinguisher and a mention of a baseball bat does not equate to "Hardman weapon talk"


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Burglars don't always shit on your floor you know.



But for some obscure reason they often do!? Why? could understand, in some weird fashion,  if they had managed to break in to some obscenely rich home ( the Beckhams, Tony Blair...or such) but it's quite a common behaviour in everyday crimes.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Apr 7, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> Blimey, all I could think of watching that was a box of eggs dropping on the floor/tapping a large soft boiled egg very hard with a large spoon



Reminded me of after-work drinking at the flying saucer pub, when old George had been sidetracked by one for the road too many times and his missus turned up regularly to deliver his over done dinner, round the head whilst it was still in the frying pan...


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

bellaozzydog said:


> It's a well known and documented phenomena. I've been burgled twice and on one occasion who ever did it had the decency to just piss on my kitchen lino
> 
> This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense
> 
> Slam your bedroom door and call the police.



And wait in fear while you are ferried from one menu to another!?....you called 999 lately?


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Or just some tricks with that wooden sort of mallet my mum had under her mattress that type of thing


No,slap slap, keep on subject


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 7, 2018)

coley said:


> No,slap slap, keep on subject


Hahaha I really shouldn’t have posted them ting


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Except these tossers apprantly didn't usually unless its obviously ott you don't get punished for killing thieves in self defence.
> 
> "this isnt the US where they will just shrugg and dragg the corpse away they will investigate



We don't want this country to become the 'US' where you can 'despatch/murder a burglar, or someone who by mistake  entered your property..   
But some bugger who enters your house,in the dark, by force, in the early hours...the law should always be on the side of the householder, without exception.
Peter Martin was driven to his actions by a certain group of individuals who believe they are outside of social norms and regard the communities they live alongside as "prey"


----------



## craigxcraig (Apr 7, 2018)

Sleepy HG? Awoken to a woman screaming for help, mugged outside our place - dived out of bed and out the house, he'd buggered off at this point. Brought woman in, bruised face and a fat lip. Police have just left and it seems like theyve nabbed the cowardly c*nt - HG must be full of old bill atm.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Apr 7, 2018)

This has even made the news in my teeny tiny corner of the world..which feels strange because I used to know Hither Green well 

Pensioner arrested for fatal stabbing of burglar


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

craigxcraig said:


> Sleepy HG? Awoken to a woman screaming for help, mugged outside our place - dived out of bed and out the house, he'd buggered off at this point. Brought woman in, bruised face and a fat lip. Police have just left and it seems like theyve nabbed the cowardly c*nt - HG must be full of old bill atm.


Good effort mate.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 7, 2018)

kenny g said:


> Not sure where the sign is that one needs to read through a 17 page thread before making a comment Mr Stunt?



You didn't need to read the whole, it was discussed right at the start, and at several points since, it is all very simple.

1 - The man stabbed someone to death.
2 - It's reasonable to accept normally such action is murder.
3 - But, is there a defence? Well it appeared so, but it was one man's word, no CCTV, no witnesses, therefore:
4 - Man needs to be arrested to assist the police investigation, the i's need dotting & the t's need crossing, statements taken, scene searched, etc. 
5 - A file of evidence so far then needs submitting to the CPS, IIRC within 24 hours** of arrest for murder when someone is in custody, for 'early investigative advice'.
6 - The CPS then decides if he is charged or not, and if he is what charge that should be, e.g. murder or manslaughter - that decision isn't one for the police, their role is only to carry out the investigation as quickly as possible.

** Just checked, it's actually within 24 hours 'wherever practicable'.


> Specific cases involving a death, rape or other serious sexual offence should always be referred to an Area prosecutor as early as possible and in any case once a suspect has been identified and it appears that continuing investigation will provide evidence upon which a charging decision may be made.
> 
> Wherever practicable, this should take place within 24 hours in cases where the suspect is being detained in custody or within 7 days where released on bail.



Personally I am glad the investigation concluded support for the pensioner's version so quickly, so the CPS could make their decision in a speedy fashion, the man must have been so relieved to be told no further action will be taken within a fairly short period of time.

I just hope he & his wife receives as much support & help in getting over this, including protection against any possible revenge attack.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

kenny g said:


> I'm sorry, but being arrested is far more than being "questioned". A police officer  is welcome to ask me questions but if he chooses to arrest me that means he is taking a substantial part of my liberty away and the law quite clearly recognises the difference. I would usually  agree if a death had occurred in my presence to attend a police station the next day to hear a constable's questions. If I were arrested outside the Codes of PACE I would sue.


He wasn't though. And being arrested meant that he was interviewed under caution I guess.

I really don't get all the fuss about him being arrested. He spent _one night_ in police custody (probably in some comfort) after stabbing a man to death whilst plod investigated the case, liaised with the CPS, cleared him completely, and got him home to his wife within 48 hours. If anything the old bill have done a great job here.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> He wasn't though. And being arrested meant that he was interviewed under caution I guess.
> 
> I really don't get all the fuss about him being arrested. He spent _one night_ in police custody (probably in some comfort) after stabbing a man to death whilst plod investigated the case, liaised with the CPS, cleared him completely, and got him home to his wife within 48 hours. If anything the old bill have done a great job here.



He spent a night shitting himself about the possible ramifications, in a police cell, following the terrifying experience of having to defend himself against intruders. 
He didn’t need to be arrested or detained for the police to carry out any enquiries.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

coley said:


> A fire extinguisher and a mention of a baseball bat does not equate to "Hardman weapon talk"


No, it doesn't.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> He wasn't though. And being arrested meant that he was interviewed under caution I guess.
> 
> I really don't get all the fuss about him being arrested. He spent _one night_ in police custody (probably in some comfort) after stabbing a man to death whilst plod investigated the case, liaised with the CPS, cleared him completely, and got him home to his wife within 48 hours. If anything the old bill have done a great job here.


'Better'.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He spent a night shitting himself about the possible ramifications, in a police cell, following the terrifying experience of having to defend himself against intruders.
> He didn’t need to be arrested or detained for the police to carry out any enquiries.


Nonsense. When he was arrested the circumstances would have been fully explained to him and as scifisam said, he was probably very well treated by the coppers at the station.

He killed a man. That's a _massive_ deal regardless of the circumstances of the incident. No reasonable person would expect there to be no consequences whatsoever. As it happens the police have played a blinder, followed the legal process properly, and got him sorted in less than 2 days.

In the real world you can't kill a bloke and ask for much more than that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Nonsense. When he was arrested the circumstances would have been fully explained to him and as scifisam said, he was probably lauded by the coppers at the station.
> 
> He killed a man. That's a massive deal regardless of the circumstances of the incident. No reasonable person would expect there to be no consequences whatsoever. As it happens the police have played a blinder, followed the legal process properly, and got him sorted in less than 2 days.
> 
> You can't kill a bloke and ask for much more than that.



He was _suspected_ of killing a man. Even he can’t have known for sure short of them all performing an autopsy together prior to his arrest.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He was _suspected_ of killing a man.


No. The police will have turned up and asked him what happened. Presumably he'd then have told them, so there was no _suspected_ about it. The first plod on the scene would have been made aware that he was the killer.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> No. The police will have turned up and asked him what happened. Presumably he'd then have told them, so there was no _suspected_ about it. The first plod on the scene would have been made aware that he was the killer.



Splitting hairs here somewhat but you can’t ascertain that until after the autopsy. What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest? 
Of course there’s still the fact he stabbed someone but the police don’t just make up the cause of death.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Splitting hairs here somewhat but you can’t ascertain that until after the autopsy. What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest?/QUOTE]


 Piss off!


----------



## existentialist (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Splitting hairs here somewhat but you can’t ascertain that until after the autopsy. What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest?
> Of course there’s still the fact he stabbed someone but the police don’t just make up the cause of death.


I don't think Spymaster is remotely splitting hairs. You, on the other hand...what's all this bollocks about cardiac arrest?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Don't think it's a consensus but there certainly seems to be a few folk who think that plod should have immediately accepted the old boy's version without question, tucked him back into bed and fucked off.


What other possible version is there?

Did a 78 year old man go out into the street, after midnight, and drag two other men, one of whom happened to be armed with a screwdriver, into his house, with the intent of killing one of them?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I don't think Spymaster is remotely splitting hairs. You, on the other hand...what's all this bollocks about cardiac arrest?



Where did I say it was Spymaster splitting hairs?


----------



## scifisam (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> What other possible version is there?
> 
> Did a 78 year old man go out into the street, after midnight, and drag two other men, one of whom happened to be armed with a screwdriver, into his house, with the intent of killing one of them?



Have you even read the thread?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> What other possible version is there?
> 
> Did a 78 year old man go out into the street, after midnight, and drag two other men, one of whom happened to be armed with a screwdriver, into his house, with the intent of killing one of them?


How do the cops know he didn't know the dead guy? Did he have previous beef with him and invite him round to kill him? Was it an argument between friends that went tits up? Has he ever stabbed someone to death before ... etc etc ?

There are loads of other considerations and circumstances that need to be excluded. I for one would be exceedingly pissed off at the OB if they turned up to possible murder scenes, took them at face value and immediately released the potential murderer. So would you and all the people who are moaning about this.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He didn’t need to be arrested or detained for the police to carry out any enquiries.



It is normal for an arrest in such circumstances, because killing someone is a serious matter, and there's nothing in UK that allows anyone to stab anyone else as a legal right. However, the law recognises the reality of self-defence and allows it to be used as a mitigating defence, but the existence self-defence has to be established by an investigation, and considered by the CPS.

Blimey, I wish I got the solicitor, I had this conversation with the other morning, to have written all this in an e-mail, so I could just copy & paste it. 



> What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest?



Still potentially murder, if the heart attack was the result of the stabbing. The law used to allow charges of murder up to 1 year & 1 day after 'an event', but I think that limit has been lifted.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I shall have to dig them out, and I am pissed, musiced out, and tired - they were in the Telegraph article linked to earlier in the thread. Essentially, they were minimising his role in the thing, and being very sorry that he'd been killed. I picked up undertones of unfairness that it should have happened - the sort of position that can, with a goodly dose of righteous indignation, turn into resentment against the person who was responsible for the killing (OK, we all know that that person was the burglar, but it didn't feel like the family member thought so). If I find it, I'll post the link and a quote.



Only other scumbags would think he'd been hard done by.

You did read the link upthread which describes how this family has done jail time for theft by deception against elderly people on a massive scale? The scrote that was killed did time twice for that.

I take no pleasure in the fact a man died, but I'm not mourning his passing either.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Have you even read the thread?



Yes, did you?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> How do the cops know he didn't know the dead guy? Did he have previous beef with him, invite him round and stab him? Was it an argument between friends that went tits up? Has he ever stabbed someone to death before?
> 
> There are loads of other considerations and circumstances that need to be excluded. I for one would be exceedingly pissed off at the OB if they turned up to potential murder scenes, took them at face value and immediately released a potential murderer. So would you and all the people who are moaning about this.



Oh, possible I suppose. Possibility of a magnitude of Bigfoot being captured today, but possible.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh, possible I suppose. Possibility of a magnitude of Bigfoot being captured today, but possible.


Not unfeasible. There was those two women who invited a 'vulnerable' person to a house and killed him as they shared a fantasy about murdering someone and wanted to do it.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Where did I say it was Spymaster splitting hairs?


OK, my apologies, you didn't. You admitted that you were doing it yourself.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 7, 2018)

No further action was the right result the police need to do their Job and been seen to do it pity somebody died but thats the risk you take


----------



## existentialist (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Only other scumbags would think he'd been hard done by.
> 
> You did read the link upthread which describes how this family has done jail time for theft by deception against elderly people on a massive scale? The scrote that was killed did time twice for that.
> 
> I take no pleasure in the fact a man died, but I'm not mourning his passing either.


Yes, they almost certainly are scumbags, but that was the point - it's scumbags that tend to get all up tight about concepts like "honour" and "revenge", and it's more likely to be that kind of person who decides to start a vendetta against the innocent victim "who killed are Henry".


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh, possible I suppose. Possibility of a magnitude of Bigfoot being captured today, but possible.


Don’t be daft.


----------



## xenon (Apr 7, 2018)

coley said:


> A fire extinguisher and a mention of a baseball bat does not equate to "Hardman weapon talk"





Sasaferrato said:


> No, it doesn't.



 When I posted that, the thread looked like it was going down the tedious and slightly pathetic route  blokes talking about how will they would use baseball bats, how they’ve got a chainsaw under the bed et cetera. 
And FFS  are people still saying he shouldn’t have been arrested. You thick twats.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Yes, did you?



Yes, which is why I know people including me had already posted multiple alternate possibilities for the way the burglar died. It always seemed much more likely that it was a burglary gone wrong but it wasn't the only possibility in the world and it's stupid to pretend so.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 7, 2018)

xenon said:


> When I posted that, the thread looked like it was going down the tedious and slightly pathetic route  blokes talking about how will they would use baseball bats, how they’ve got a chainsaw under the bed et cetera.
> And FFS  are people still saying he shouldn’t have been arrested. You thick twats.


was it decided which urb was the hardest and most tooled up tho!?!


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

ddraig said:


> was it decided which urb was the hardest and most tooled up tho!?!


I reckon that would be likesfish.

He’s ex-army but he doesn’t like to talk about it.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 7, 2018)

If you were tooling up your house it would be remarkably stupid to permanently record the fact that your fire extinguisher,  bat and maglight collection had not been bought for games of nocturnal fire baseball but were rather there in wait to be propelled into an uninvited visitor's skull.


----------



## agricola (Apr 7, 2018)

kenny g said:


> If you were tooling up your house it would be remarkably stupid to permanently record the fact that your fire extinguisher,  bat and maglight collection had not been bought for games of nocturnal fire baseball but were rather there in wait to be propelled into an uninvited visitor's skull.



Not really - you could have actual swords in your house, specifically for defence against burglars, and it wouldn't be an offence to have or to use them as you intended and advertised that they would be used (provided that it was actually in self defence).  

Obviously you would have to get said items into the house in the first place though, which would be an offence.  The only loophole would be to have your own forge.


----------



## xenon (Apr 7, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon that would be likesfish.
> 
> He’s ex army but he doesn’t like to talk about it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 7, 2018)

I purchased my fire extinguisher at the same time as my fire blanket, for the sole purpose of lumping & killing a burglar, before wrapping-up the body for disposal.


----------



## xenon (Apr 7, 2018)

Reminds me, I keep meaning to get a fire extinguisher. A CO2 one.  I would be a bit scared to use it, for its intended purposes, they’re loud as fuck.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 7, 2018)

agricola said:


> Not really - you could have actual swords in your house, specifically for defence against burglars, and it wouldn't be an offence to have or to use them as you intended and advertised that they would be used (provided that it was actually in self defence).
> 
> Obviously you would have to get said items into the house in the first place though, which would be an offence.  The only loophole would be to have your own forge.



You are allowed to carry swords in public if you have a good reason, and I'm pretty sure that transporting it from the shop to your house would count. Or you could just buy one online.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> You are allowed to carry swords in public if you have a good reason, and I'm pretty sure that transporting it from the shop to your house would count. Or you could just buy one online.



It would have to be concealed I think. Not sure if it’s a specific crime for it not to be, or just because it’ll get you reported or what. I got my collar felt for walking down the street with a hammer once. Cops just said it should be in a bag or something.


----------



## Cid (Apr 7, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Still potentially murder, if the heart attack was the result of the stabbing. The law used to allow charges of murder up to 1 year & 1 day after 'an event', but I think that limit has been lifted.



Yes, in 1996. The law works on causation, in a case like this you'd apply the 'but for' test; but for the defendant's actions, would the result have occurred. If the victim had a weak heart you apply the thin skull rule; the defendant takes the victim as they find them... Even if the defendant has no knowledge of the weak heart (or thin skull).


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> Yes, in 1996. The law works on causation, in a case like this you'd apply the 'but for' test; but for the defendant's actions, would the result have occurred. If the victim had a weak heart you apply the thin skull rule; the defendant takes the victim as they find them... Even if the defendant has no knowledge of the weak heart (or thin skull).



You also take the fact he was burgling a property into account. Stress brought about from his own actions could have brought on the cardiac arrest.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You also take the fact he was burgling a property into account. Stress brought about from his own actions could have brought on the cardiac arrest.



Blimey, mate, you are grasping at straws.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 7, 2018)

Just back from B&Q with hammers, an axe, a nail gun and a stiffy


----------



## likesfish (Apr 7, 2018)

so has the shrine of flowers made an appearance yet with the tear-stained family claiming he was a loveable rogue yet.
 i do have a pistol crossbow in my bedroom but alas no bolts for it


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blimey, mate, you are grasping at straws.



I’m not. I’m pointing out nuances as opposed to rolling over and sucking cop dick.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You also take the fact he was burgling a property into account. Stress brought about from his own actions could have brought on the cardiac arrest.




?!?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 7, 2018)

It’s really hard to cardiac arrest through panic/stress, I have tried


----------



## moochedit (Apr 7, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> Just back from B&Q with hammers, an axe, a nail gun and a stiffy



Now you just need some bait to draw them in


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> It’s really hard to cardiac arrest through panic/stress, I have tried



Loads of people have died from cardiac arrest following being assaulted. If it isn’t panic/stress that induces it, what does?
Strenuous exercise can bring one on if you have an underlying condition ffs.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

So post Mortems don’t ascertain cause of death? Ok then.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Yes, which is why I know people including me had already posted multiple alternate possibilities for the way the burglar died. It always seemed much more likely that it was a burglary gone wrong but it wasn't the only possibility in the world and it's stupid to pretend so.



My position is now fixed.  To your side of the line. A bit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So post Mortems don’t ascertain cause of death? Ok then.



FFS, he's dead because he was stabbed, the person that killed him is not facing any charges, the situation is clear & sorted.

Why are you banging on about heart attacks?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 7, 2018)

coley said:


> And wait in fear while you are ferried from one menu to another!?....you called 999 lately?


There was a couple in Durham last week who caught the burglar and restrained him. When they phoned plod they were told to let him go but a take a photo first! He went on to burgle another property before getting nabbed.
They must have all been busy filming police interceptors.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It would have to be concealed I think. Not sure if it’s a specific crime for it not to be, or just because it’ll get you reported or what. I got my collar felt for walking down the street with a hammer once. Cops just said it should be in a bag or something.



Oh yeah, it'd probably have to be in the packaging and/or dismantled.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 7, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Why are you banging on about heart attacks?



This was covered. Not going into it all again.


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

Calamity1971 said:


> There was a couple in Durham last week who caught the burglar and restrained him. When they phoned plod they were told to let him go but a take a photo first! He went on to burgle another property before getting nabbed.
> They must have all been busy filming police interceptors.



Similar story here in Northumberland ( think I've mentioned it before) local haulage/farming business had been plagued by thefts of diesel. They arranged to ambush the thieves and caught them red handed, video the lot, after a bit of a scuffle they held them in a workshop until plod arrived.
After a discussion with said thieves,  plod informed the haulier that yes, they (the thieves) could be charged with attempted theft, but he and his workers could then be charged with assault and unlawful detention.
Plod advised him to let them go, which after much gnashing of teeth, they did.
The thieves involved had a long history of assault, drug dealing, theft etc ( much longer now) but they are still walking free.


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

xenon said:


> When I posted that, the thread looked like it was going down the tedious and slightly pathetic route  blokes talking about how will they would use baseball bats, how they’ve got a chainsaw under the bed et cetera.
> And FFS  are people still saying he shouldn’t have been arrested. You thick twats.


"You"
?
Can't argue about others,  but most seem to reckon A, plod had to follow procedure, B, it was to protect his rights (PACE etc)


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

existentialist said:


> The comments from the family member weren't especially encouraging in that regard.


Shades of Peter Martin, didn't plod have to arrange protection when he was released?


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> OK.
> 
> OK.
> 
> ...



Seems you have, it's wasn't just 'burglary' the burglar in question was armed and threatened the home owner, in that situation all bets are off, or we could argue the homeowner should have only stabbed non life threatening bits of the burglar?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 7, 2018)

coley said:


> Similar story here in Northumberland ( think I've mentioned it before) local haulage/farming business had been plagued by thefts of diesel. They arranged to ambush the thieves and caught them red handed, video the lot, after a bit of a scuffle they held them in a workshop until plod arrived.
> After a discussion with said thieves, plod informed the haulier that yes, they (the thieves) could be charged with attempted theft, but he and his workers could then be charged with assault and unlawful detention.
> Plod advised him to let them go, which after much gnashing of teeth, they did.
> The thieves involved had a long history of assault, drug dealing, theft etc ( much longer now) but they are still walking free.


Liked for the sheer stupidity of the law not for the shite bags who are still free to cause grief


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

existentialist said:


> TBF - and I'm not sure Spymaster's particular rhetorical style helps here - the situation does rather have to be one of "if you live by the swordscrewdriver, then be prepared to die by the screwdriver". Regardless of scumbag families, etc., this guy took a risk - a risk that would usually pay off nicely - and on this occasion, through whatever combination of circumstance and misfortune prevailed, it didn't. It isn't unreasonable to speculate what a family which, according to public record, appears to involve at the very least, a culture of crime, might think about that happening. And, indeed, what they might choose to do about it - this is, after all, a family of which three generations have been convicted for crimes against vulnerable elderly people, so they might reasonably be assumed not to be particularly unencumbered by moral strictures. If I were that 78 year old, i'd certainly be pondering my options wrt a place in the country...



Even complaining about these 'families' is enough to get your tires slashed, a brick through the window etc, to actually do the World a favour and whistle one of them off this mortal coil is another ball game entirely, poor bloke isn't going to get a good nights sleep for along while.


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Only other scumbags would think he'd been hard done by.
> 
> You did read the link upthread which describes how this family has done jail time for theft by deception against elderly people on a massive scale? The scrote that was killed did time twice for that.
> 
> I take no pleasure in the fact a man died, but I'm not mourning his passing either.



I'm slightly ashamed to admit I took a sneaking pleasure in thinking 'one less' 
As you get older and realise your 'frailties' and that the law no longer sees your protection as a priority, then the less scumbags on  the prowl, the better.


----------



## coley (Apr 7, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Yes, they almost certainly are scumbags, but that was the point - it's scumbags that tend to get all up tight about concepts like "honour" and "revenge", and it's more likely to be that kind of person who decides to start a vendetta against the innocent victim "who killed are Henry".


Mmm, you obviously don't live in the 'leafy suburbs' with plenty of police presence, where this type of 'scumbag' would be moved on within minutes of parking their Transit


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> Just back from B&Q with hammers, an axe, a nail gun and a stiffy [/QUOTE
> Shurely a _staffy_?


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 8, 2018)

> Career crook killed by pensioner 'didn't deserve to die', say family









(Source: Daily Mail)​
*The Late Henry Vincent:  Can anyone clarify exactly what his family thought it was that he did "deserve"?*​


----------



## ddraig (Apr 8, 2018)

coley said:


> Even complaining about these 'families' is enough to get your tires slashed, a brick through the window etc, to actually do the World a favour and whistle one of them off this mortal coil is another ball game entirely, poor bloke isn't going to get a good nights sleep for along while.





coley said:


> I'm slightly ashamed to admit I took a sneaking pleasure in thinking 'one less'
> As you get older and realise your 'frailties' and that the law no longer sees your protection as a priority, then the less scumbags on  the prowl, the better.


You total dickhead, fuck off


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> You total dickhead, fuck off


Bit harsh ddraig ?
Maybe give your view on such matters and then you don't look like a dickhead yourself?


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 8, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> (Source: Daily Mail)​
> *The Late Henry Vincent:  Can anyone clarify exactly what his family thought it was that he did "deserve"?*​



A nice cup of tea perhaps? 

His family have got a fucking cheek here. They're wrong uns too, they showed him this criminal career as an option so they bear a chunk of responsibility too.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> You total dickhead, fuck off


Lol! This sums up some of the twats on these boards nicely. It’s ok to wish death upon all sorts of people (tories, liberals, posh folk, wealthy people, bankers, Jamie Oliver, etc) but get stuck in to a career criminal from a family of nasty bastards who prey on the elderly and you get shit like this! 

I’m glad this cunt is dead too. Hope it happens to more cowardly shits who violently target vulnerable people.


----------



## bemused (Apr 8, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Either the police actually suspected he committed murder or we accept that they can arrest people under false pretences just to make their job easier.



If a man calls the police an says he stabbed someone to death in their kitchen, it's probably reasonable to have a suspicion the dead chap may have been murdered. Investigating the murder provides a necessity to arrest him. Arresting him puts him under the protection of PACE and gives him access to free legal support. The police then investigated found no evidence of wrongdoing and off he went and as far as I can tell the State is now providing this family with security. 

That's the process working. In your model where the police don't bother with any of this because they think the dead person is a wrongen I'm not sure we'd have the same outcome - although it does make great Daily Mail headlines.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 8, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> A nice cup of tea perhaps?
> 
> His family have got a fucking cheek here. They're wrong uns too, they showed him this criminal career as an option so they bear a chunk of responsibility too.



Not sticking up for the family but I'm guessing this is a quote gained by doorstepping then put in the public domain for Clickbait outrage.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Lol! This sums up some of the twats on these boards nicely. It’s ok to wish death upon all sorts of people (tories, liberals, posh folk, wealthy people, bankers, Jamie Oliver, etc) but get stuck in to a career criminal from a family of nasty bastards who prey on the elderly and you get shit like this!
> 
> I’m glad this cunt is dead too. Hope it happens to more cowardly shits who violently target vulnerable people.



I had liked this post, but you then edited it & added that last line, so I've had to unlike it.

Personally I am uncomfortable with the 'he deserved it' line, but I have some sympathy with that thinking, as he was a right evil scumbag, so I don't think you're a dickhead.

Well, not over this anyway.


----------



## ricbake (Apr 8, 2018)

From the way most papers write up the story it would be a blessed relief for all pensioners in South London if the majority of the Vincent family met with an untimely end....

To be honest it is hard to disagreed


----------



## kenny g (Apr 8, 2018)

coley said:


> Similar story here in Northumberland ( think I've mentioned it before) local haulage/farming business had been plagued by thefts of diesel. They arranged to ambush the thieves and caught them red handed, video the lot, after a bit of a scuffle they held them in a workshop until plod arrived.
> After a discussion with said thieves,  plod informed the haulier that yes, they (the thieves) could be charged with attempted theft, but he and his workers could then be charged with assault and unlawful detention.
> Plod advised him to let them go, which after much gnashing of teeth, they did.
> The thieves involved had a long history of assault, drug dealing, theft etc ( much longer now) but they are still walking free.



Would be tempting to suggest to the heroes in blue in this instance that if they failed to arrest the thieves they would be referred for gross dereliction of duty. A lot easier said than done, I know, having experienced health and safety reasons being sited as reason to not make an arrest after an assault (not of me).


----------



## coley (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> You total dickhead, fuck off



You either  have absolutely no idea of the grief and misery these 'families' can cause or your related to one, which is it?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 8, 2018)

coley said:


> You either  have absolutely no idea of the grief and misery these 'families' can cause or your related to one, which is it?


Nah, neither of those - I think he's just a bit hooked on righteous indignation


----------



## 1927 (Apr 8, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> A nice cup of tea perhaps?
> 
> His family have got a fucking cheek here. They're wrong uns too, they showed him this criminal career as an option so they bear a chunk of responsibility too.


It also goes to highlight the fact that this was not someone who was desperate for money and had no alternative but to resort to robbing old people. This was a career criminal who got what he deserved, hope he had time to think about all the shit things he had done to people while he lay dying on the pavement.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Nah, neither of those - I think he's just a bit hooked on righteous indignation


It’s the old u75 uber-lefty bollocks that this wanker was some kind of victim of society/capitalism because he was a working class robber. If he was black or Muslim or from another currently-in-favour minority they’d probably have a collection for the fucking slug’s family too.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Personally I am uncomfortable with the 'he deserved it' line ...


Really? People were celebrating here when Thatcher died and there’s loads of unconcealed glee at the deaths of plenty of others. But when we have a violent scumbag who’s spent his life making other people’s lives a misery get topped during the commission of the tooled-up robbery of an 80 year old couple, you’re uncomfortable with “he deserved it”?

Bollocks to that.

If you’re the kind of violent shit stain who makes their living by intimidating and terrorising the weakest people in society _I hope you die soon._

It’ll save a lot of people a lot of grief.


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2018)

coley said:


> I'm slightly ashamed to admit I took a sneaking pleasure in thinking 'one less'
> As you get older and realise your 'frailties' and that the law no longer sees your protection as a priority, then the less scumbags on  the prowl, the better.





ddraig said:


> You total dickhead, fuck off



Nothing unreasonable about what coley said there. Taking a shamedly sneaking pleasure, not the same as explicitly celebrating the death of a burlar.

I still don't celebrate the death of these types of criminal myself. Mainly from a selfish POV. I don't want to be that kind of person. Give the processing time and spend emotional energy on some low life I don't know. But a shrug and thought of, so it goes. AT least the ability of that individual's capacity to commit crimes has met the hard limit. Of course it doesn't fix society. It doesn't solve structural problems, policing issues, toxic family environments etc but who argued that it would.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 8, 2018)

> A nice cup of tea perhaps?
> 
> His family have got a f**king cheek here. They're wrong uns too, they showed him this criminal career as an option so they bear a chunk of responsibility too.



Noted.

If Mr Vincent's family do indeed believe that he did not "deserve" what he received, I sincerely hope that they or their repreentatives will come forward as soon as possible to say what exactly it is they consider he did "deserve".  This has yet to be made clear.







(Source: Daily Mail)​
*The Late Henry Vincent*​
Latest:  'Henry had a heart of gold!': Flowers and card left outside OAP's boarded-up home for burglar who was stabbed to death by 78-year-old homeowner during late night break-in


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Noted.
> 
> If Mr Vincent's family do indeed believe that he did not "deserve" what he received, I sincerely hope that they or their repreentatives will come forward as soon as possible to say what exactly it is they consider he did "deserve".  This has yet to be made clear.
> ​


​
Hardly.  78 year old man is o looking at on the wrong end of a clan of low lifes bearing a grievence.  Not a good place to be.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Really? People were celebrating here when Thatcher died and there’s loads of unconcealed glee at the deaths of plenty of others. But when we have a violent scumbag who’s spent his life making other people’s lives a misery get topped during the commission of the tooled-up robbery of an 80 year old couple, you’re uncomfortable with “he deserved it”?
> 
> Bollocks to that.
> 
> ...



Oh, don't get me wrong, I have zero sympathy for the cunt, but I can't bring myself to 'celebrate' his death, especially in view of the impact it's had on the poor old guy & the risk of revenge.

Believe me, there's only a fag paper between where you are on this and where I am.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 8, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It’s the old u75 uber-lefty bollocks that this wanker was some kind of victim of society/capitalism because he was a working class robber. If he was black or Muslim or from another currently-in-favour minority they’d probably have a collection for the fucking slug’s family too.



I think you exaggerate a tad Spy -- the number of posts couched in the above terms or anywhere near them, have been tiny from my reading of the thread.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> #killautisticsNOW
> 
> oh. not that type of anti-social right? i'm sure it would be easy to write a law around your thoughts



How are ‘autistics’ cruel or indeed anti-social?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> I think you exaggerate a tad Spy -- the number of posts couched in the above terms or anywhere near them, have been tiny from my reading of the thread.


So far. But there've been a few. These boards have always been like that. Hand wringing crap.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 8, 2018)

IMO I think there are many more posts showing contempt for 'handwringing crap', or roundly taking the piss out of it, than expressing any wringing of the hand.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 8, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> These boards have always been like that. Hand wringing crap.



Yes, wingeing hand crapping aside I think this thread has had quite a few highlights and shows Urbz in a positive light. I thank you all for your contributions.


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> IMO I think there are many more posts showing contempt for 'handwringing crap', or roundly taking the piss out of it, than expressing any wringing of the hand.



Spooky Frank's was a goodun.


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> How are ‘autistics’ cruel or indeed anti-social?



Yeah, that went over my head. Guessed maybe antisocial was some abandoned arcaic medical terminology dug up to make god knows what point.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 8, 2018)

Calamity1971 said:


> Bit harsh ddraig ?
> Maybe give your view on such matters and then you don't look like a dickhead yourself?





Spymaster said:


> Lol! This sums up some of the twats on these boards nicely. It’s ok to wish death upon all sorts of people (tories, liberals, posh folk, wealthy people, bankers, Jamie Oliver, etc) but get stuck in to a career criminal from a family of nasty bastards who prey on the elderly and you get shit like this!
> 
> I’m glad this cunt is dead too. Hope it happens to more cowardly shits who violently target vulnerable people.





coley said:


> You either  have absolutely no idea of the grief and misery these 'families' can cause or your related to one, which is it?





xenon said:


> Nothing unreasonable about what coley said there. Taking a shamedly sneaking pleasure, not the same as explicitly celebrating the death of a burlar.
> 
> I still don't celebrate the death of these types of criminal myself. Mainly from a selfish POV. I don't want to be that kind of person. Give the processing time and spend emotional energy on some low life I don't know. But a shrug and thought of, so it goes. AT least the ability of that individual's capacity to commit crimes has met the hard limit. Of course it doesn't fix society. It doesn't solve structural problems, policing issues, toxic family environments etc but who argued that it would.



they mean traveller families 
wishing and celebrating their deaths is fair game now??


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> they mean traveller families
> wishing and celebrating their deaths is fair game now??


Eh? I didn’t even know he’s from a traveller family.


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2018)

Yeah. I'm pretty sure coley meant anti social families involved in crime. Not seen any traveller connection mentioned at all on here. Red herring IMO.


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2018)

Not even read about them other than here either TBH.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

It’s straightforward bollocks. There’s no way anyone here was referring to traveller families and it’s perfectly clear what people meant.

Ddraig’s making shit up.


----------



## sealion (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> they mean traveller families
> wishing and celebrating their deaths is fair game now??


That's just your twisted view.


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 8, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> How are ‘autistics’ cruel or indeed anti-social?



I never once suggested autistic people are cruel, I just couldn’t be arsed to edit the quote I was using. 

I should not, however, have used ‘anti-social’ as shorthand for those who may have difficulty with social interaction.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 8, 2018)

I posted what i posted because that's what i thought coley meant, if i'm wrong i'm wrong not deliberately twisting or whatever you're trying to project
no need for the usual pile on thanks


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> I never once suggested autistic people are cruel, I just couldn’t be arsed to edit the quote I was using.
> 
> I should not, however, have used ‘anti-social’ as shorthand for those who may have difficulty with social interaction.



Fair enough


----------



## sealion (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> no need for the usual pile on thanks


You should bare this in mind the next time you stick the boot in


----------



## kenny g (Apr 8, 2018)

TBH it has been mentioned in the media  the family refer to themselves as travellers and I thought it was common knowledge. Apparently the extended family live in an housing association estate in south east London. Based on the kind of shit they have been up to I suspect they could be direct decendents of St George and people would still be wishing the family ill.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2018)

theres been far more tony martins than hand wringers on the thread tho. Even unto the tools discussion


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2018)

I had no idea that the family are from a travellers background, not that I can see that makes any different whatsoever.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Apr 8, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I had no idea that the family are from a travellers background, not that I can see that makes any different whatsoever.



Same here.  They're a bunch of cunts,  whatever their background.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 8, 2018)

kenny g said:


> TBH it has been mentioned in the media  the family refer to themselves as travellers and I thought it was common knowledge. Apparently the extended family live in an housing association estate in south east London. Based on the kind of shit they have been up to I suspect they could be direct decendents of St George and people would still be wishing the family ill.



Has it? I haven't seen it anywhere.


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 8, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> theres been far more tony martins than hand wringers on the thread tho. Even unto the tools discussion



Indeed. Far, far more. Which, of course, puts the Tony Martins in the majority, on this thread at least. Which, in turn, not only has led to far more macho bollocks (‘I’m more violent than you are’) but also to the calling out of anyone who doesn’t see burglary as a capital offence as a hand-wringing liberal who, because they don’t care for the consequences of retributive justice, would really like to be be organising benefits for burglars. 

To the nods (‘likes’) of those who want to be in the same gang. 

#benefitsforburglars2018


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 8, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Same here.  They're a bunch of cunts,  whatever their background.


Oooooh, Liz said “cunts”!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 8, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> [...] but also to the calling out of anyone who doesn’t see burglary as a capital offence as a hand-wringing liberal [...]



This is disingenuous bollocks. There’s an ocean of difference between seeing someone who preys on pensioners getting their come-uppance from one, and campaigning to give the state the power to kill and including burglary in the list of transgressions you can be executed for.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 8, 2018)

bemused said:


> If a man calls the police an says he stabbed someone to death in their kitchen, it's probably reasonable to have a suspicion the dead chap may have been murdered. Investigating the murder provides a necessity to arrest him. Arresting him puts him under the protection of PACE and gives him access to free legal support. The police then investigated found no evidence of wrongdoing and off he went and as far as I can tell the State is now providing this family with security.
> 
> That's the process working. In your model where the police don't bother with any of this because they think the dead person is a wrongen I'm not sure we'd have the same outcome - although it does make great Daily Mail headlines.



Why didn’t they arrest his wife? If she had stabbed him the obvious thing to do would be for her to climb into bed and her husband to pretend he had confronted what he thought was a burglar.


----------



## bemused (Apr 8, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Why didn’t they arrest his wife?



Because they didn't suspect her of a crime.


----------



## agricola (Apr 8, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Why didn’t they arrest his wife? If she had stabbed him the obvious thing to do would be for her to climb into bed and her husband to pretend he had confronted what he thought was a burglar.



Aside from the obvious daftness of this (from the published reports the husband appears not to have known the bloke was dead until some time afterwards - the bloke who died was bundled out of the house by his accomplice then left in the street and died later in hospital, so how would he know to cover it up?), its very telling that you think that other people would think they'd need to cover up stabbing someone in self-defence after that person has tried to rob them in their own home. 

It has literally never been something for which people have been imprisoned, there is oodles of caselaw proving that it isn't, so why does a large part of the population think that it is?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 8, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Has it? I haven't seen it anywhere.


LMGTFY


----------



## coley (Apr 8, 2018)

ddraig said:


> they mean traveller families
> wishing and celebrating their deaths is fair game now??


Ok, just to be clear, what would you describe as a 'traveller family"?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2018)

And, why the fuck does it matter?


----------



## scifisam (Apr 8, 2018)

kenny g said:


> LMGTFY



Fuck off.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 8, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Noted.
> 
> If Mr Vincent's family do indeed believe that he did not "deserve" what he received, I sincerely hope that they or their repreentatives will come forward as soon as possible to say what exactly it is they consider he did "deserve".  This has yet to be made clear.
> 
> ...


If that cunt had a heart of gold, it'd only be because he nicked it off someone else.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2018)

existentialist said:


> If that cunt had a heart of gold, it'd only be because he nicked it off someone else.



Very good!


----------



## A380 (Apr 8, 2018)

agricola said:


> Aside from the obvious daftness of this (from the published reports the husband appears not to have known the bloke was dead until some time afterwards - the bloke who died was bundled out of the house by his accomplice then left in the street and died later in hospital, so how would he know to cover it up?), its very telling that you think that other people would think they'd need to cover up stabbing someone in self-defence after that person has tried to rob them in their own home.
> 
> It has literally never been something for which people have been imprisoned, there is oodles of caselaw proving that it isn't, so why does a large part of the population think that it is?


Because it sells newspapers. The story in the cases like this ( about every three years) is always the same.


----------



## A380 (Apr 8, 2018)

Mind, with modern forensics if you wanted to kill someone known to you, rather than a total stranger, then you need to call it in straight away and develop a rationale to make the argument that it was self defence. 

Not that there is any suggestion that this is what happened in the case under discussion.


----------



## coley (Apr 8, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, why the fuck does it matter?



You tell me?  a few years ago I got a right bollocking on here for making a moan on "travellers" while trying to make the point that 'genuine travellers' hardly exist and those who pretend to be 'travellers' are in fact dyed in the wool local scumbags who have identified with the traveller meme.


----------



## coley (Apr 8, 2018)

existentialist said:


> If that cunt had a heart of gold, it'd only be because he nicked it off someone else.


But,   getting back to 'the family'   the old bloke, his home etc, they will be targeted, the fact that an old bloke took on and overcame one of their 'best' and as a result the media exposed his family connections and held them up to public scorn, won't be 'overlooked'


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 9, 2018)

coley said:


> But,   getting back to 'the family'   the old bloke, his home etc, they will be targeted, the fact that an old bloke took on and overcame one of their 'best' and as a result the media exposed his family connections and held them up to public scorn, won't be 'overlooked'



I rather suspect the old bill have thought of this and are putting measures in place. If nothing else it'd be good procedure. 

Also, this wanky family. Aurely even they'd be able to see that retribution on this case would bring a whole shit storm down on them. They caused this to happen by being such a bunch of cunts and using crime as the family trade, this whole tragedy is on them. They should take their licks and just fuck off.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 9, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> ... the calling out of anyone who doesn’t see burglary as a capital offence as a hand-wringing liberal who, because they don’t care for the consequences of retributive justice, would really like to be be organising benefits for burglars.


Or maybe the calling out of people who can’t put into context what has happened here and seem to sympathise more with the armed robber than the victims.

“Capital offence”


----------



## 1927 (Apr 9, 2018)

ddraig said:


> they mean traveller families
> wishing and celebrating their deaths is fair game now??


I don’t think they necessarily meant “travellers” just these type of career criminal groups.
 But if they are thieveing  scum bags terrorising old people then traveller families are not exempt from feelings of disgust, including a lack of empathy if they get killed during their criminal activities.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2018)

The house has been boarded-up with metal grills & CCTV installed, including on a lamppost in the street, whilst Richard Osborn-Brooks & his wife are in hiding. 



> The pensioner arrested for stabbing a burglar who later collapsed and died has been forced into hiding as he fears a revenge attack. Richard Osborn-Brooks, who has been cleared by police and will face no further action, is said to be in hiding with his wife Maureen. The 78-year-old is reportedly concerned that associates of Henry Vincent will target him following the burglar’s death. A friend of Ms Osborn-Brooks told The Sun: ‘Richard doesn’t want to go home. ‘He’s genuinely sorry about what happened to Vincent but felt he had no choice.
> ‘The police are still very concerned for him and his wife who has arthritis.’


Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News


----------



## girasol (Apr 9, 2018)

extra dry said:


> What if, and a topic for my students, they are disorentated and fall?
> 
> Breaking an arm or shattering their spine? What would you do?
> 
> ...



I'm not strong, so I can't drag them out.  If they fell I certainly wouldn't strike them while they're down.  The more I think about it, the more I think I'd try and stay calm - if they left peacefully I wouldn't even bother calling the police.  I think screaming just adds fuel to the fire, so I think I'd try not to scream/shout aggressively.  But again, this is a fantasy, you never know how you'd react in reality...  But maybe it's good to rehearse these things in your mind


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 9, 2018)

girasol said:


> ... if they left peacefully I wouldn't even bother calling the police.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 9, 2018)

Billy Jeeves wanted in connection with Hither Green burglary in which Henry Vincent died (click for more)






*Billy Jeeves, 28, is being sought by police following the burglary in Hither Green*​


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 9, 2018)

But the kid is not my son.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2018)

That's odd, early reports banged on about the second guy being black.


----------



## sealion (Apr 9, 2018)

He's no Danny Dyer


----------



## extra dry (Apr 9, 2018)

It would be an interesting twist to find him battared in, some other 80 year olds, dining room with a candle-stick.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2018)

the said scumbags wont go near a "victim" who had the ability to fight back.
  because they are a bunch of scummy parasites cockroaches


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 9, 2018)

That's more like it


----------



## cybershot (Apr 9, 2018)

I guess this guy is going to end up having to move house at some point


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 9, 2018)

cybershot said:


> I guess this guy is going to end up having to move house at some point



He had a heart of gold though.


----------



## cybershot (Apr 9, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> He had a heart of gold though.



Don't they always. Perhaps I shouldn't judge the uggs and hoodies!


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 9, 2018)

cybershot said:


> Don't they always. Perhaps I shouldn't judge the uggs and hoodies!


My womenfolk wear uggs and I have TWO hoodies.  who are you accusing?  I have  heart of gold too..


----------



## T & P (Apr 9, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Billy Jeeves wanted in connection with Hither Green burglary in which Henry Vincent died (click for more)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He can count himself lucky we are not in the US, as he would have probably been charged with the murder of the dead burglar, thanks to this law that I had not heard of until today:

In the US, you don't have to kill to be a murderer


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 9, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> My womenfolk wear uggs and I have TWO hoodies.  who are you accusing?  I have  heart of gold too..


Sorry that was unneceessary,  and mispe;t.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 9, 2018)

T & P said:


> He can count himself lucky we are not in the US, as he would have probably been charged with the murder of the dead burglar, thanks to this law that I had not heard of until today:
> 
> In the US, you don't have to kill to be a murderer


I was reading that yesterday.

Fucking bananas. 

A group of lads go to burgle a house, a copper kills one of them and the dead kid's mate gets done for murder.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 9, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I was reading that yesterday.
> 
> Fucking bananas.
> 
> A group of lads go to burgle a house, a copper kills one of them and the dead kid's mate gets done for murder.


Sort of shit is why I will never go to america.  if they would let me in.  which they probbly won't which is another reason I wont go there.  fucking nutters americans are.  fucking nutters.


----------



## cybershot (Apr 9, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> My womenfolk wear uggs and I have TWO hoodies.  who are you accusing?  I have  heart of gold too..



Lol. I have loads of hoodies and sweat pants. I have to blend in with the locals.


----------



## T & P (Apr 9, 2018)

What would they do if it was a group of, say, five burglars? Send all surviving four guys down for murder? Fucking bonkers country...


----------



## scifisam (Apr 9, 2018)

T & P said:


> What would they do if it was a group of, say, five burglars? Send all surviving four guys down for murder? Fucking bonkers country...



Yes. In the article above four of the dead boy's accomplices have been convicted of murder because of the cop's shooting.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 9, 2018)

> That's odd, early reports banged on about the second guy being black.






You don't say.

Meanwhile ...

'They won't rest till they get revenge': Traveller makes chilling warning to hero pensioner as dead burglar's fugitive 'accomplice' is identified and a SHRINE to fallen criminal grows at OAP's home


----------



## keybored (Apr 9, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> He had a heart of gold though.


Then I guess gold really is softer than steel.


----------



## bemused (Apr 9, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> 'They won't rest till they get revenge': Traveller makes chilling warning to hero pensioner as dead burglar's fugitive 'accomplice' is identified and a SHRINE to fallen criminal grows at OAP's home



The tabloids are riding the shrine bit to victory.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 9, 2018)

Fucks sake. People are leaving flowers for a man that preyed on the elderly? That's a whole new level of cuntitude.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Billy Jeeves wanted in connection with Hither Green burglary in which Henry Vincent died (click for more)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact they haven't yet spoken to him - the bloke who may well have been a witness to the stabbing - makes it odd that the police announced no further action against the pensioner last Friday. Not suggesting there would be any other outcome - and rightly - but the OB did seem keen to keep ahead of public opinion on this one and acted _very_ quickly.  I've not much sympathy for the bloke who got killed given the way he was preying on the elderly, but the OB have, essentially, interviewed one person on a fatal stabbing - the bloke who did it - and accepted his word. Again, to be clear, I've every sympathy with the old bloke and glad he's not had to go through it for a fortnight, but there seems to have been a willingness to at the very least truncate the whole thing to stop the police coming under media fire.


----------



## coley (Apr 10, 2018)

xenon said:


> Yeah. I'm pretty sure coley meant anti social families involved in crime. Not seen any traveller connection mentioned at all on here. Red herring IMO.


Think ddraig has a long memory, I had a pop many years ago at 'low lifes' in my area who masqueraded as 'travellers' 
But, a scumbag is a scumbag,  irrespective of colour, ethnic background or whatever.


----------



## coley (Apr 10, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Sort of shit is why I will never go to america.  if they would let me in.  which they probbly won't which is another reason I wont go there.  fucking nutters americans are.  fucking nutters.


Narrow that down a bit, Trump supporting white evangical, Koch Bros/Mercer sponsored GOP voting Muricans tend to be "nutters"
Some of the others appear to be relatively normal


----------



## coley (Apr 10, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> Fucks sake. People are leaving flowers for a man that preyed on the elderly? That's a whole new level of cuntitude.


Tony, the bigger worry is that there isn't a load of ordinary people giving them grief for doing so.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 10, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> Fucks sake. People are leaving flowers for a man that preyed on the elderly? That's a whole new level of cuntitude.



Been taken down now.

Angry locals tear down vile 'tributes' to burglar killed by hero OAP


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 10, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Sort of shit is why I will never go to america.  if they would let me in.  which they probbly won't which is another reason I wont go there.  fucking nutters americans are.  fucking nutters.



Some of them, aye. I know of some who won't go to the UK because of rampant socialism, no-go-areas and "muslim overlords". 

America is a headtrip of a place. It's not all madness and injustice.


----------



## nardy (Apr 10, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> A group of lads go to burgle a house, a copper kills one of them and the dead kid's mate gets done for murder.


The reasoning being scrote enterprise. If there hadn't been attempted or actual crime, no police bullet would have been fired. All scrotes generated the crime, all scrotes supported the crime, thus all scrotes are responsible for any possible consequences, which are not difficult to predict.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The fact they haven't yet spoken to him - the bloke who may well have been a witness to the stabbing - makes it odd that the police announced no further action against the pensioner last Friday. Not suggesting there would be any other outcome - and rightly - but the OB did seem keen to keep ahead of public opinion on this one and acted _very_ quickly.  I've not much sympathy for the bloke who got killed given the way he was preying on the elderly, but the OB have, essentially, interviewed one person on a fatal stabbing - the bloke who did it - and accepted his word. Again, to be clear, I've every sympathy with the old bloke and glad he's not had to go through it for a fortnight, but there seems to have been a willingness to at the very least truncate the whole thing to stop the police coming under media fire.



There might have been other witnesses to some of it (well, we know there were to the part on the street). Besides, it's not like they can't change their minds later if new evidence emerges.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The fact they haven't yet spoken to him - the bloke who may well have been a witness to the stabbing - makes it odd that the police announced no further action against the pensioner last Friday. Not suggesting there would be any other outcome - and rightly - but the OB did seem keen to keep ahead of public opinion on this one and acted _very_ quickly.  I've not much sympathy for the bloke who got killed given the way he was preying on the elderly, but the OB have, essentially, interviewed one person on a fatal stabbing - the bloke who did it - and accepted his word. Again, to be clear, I've every sympathy with the old bloke and glad he's not had to go through it for a fortnight, but there seems to have been a willingness to at the very least truncate the whole thing to stop the police coming under media fire.



The guidelines are that following an arrest for murder and when someone is in custody, the police have to refer the case to the CPS within 24 hours 'wherever practicable' for 'early investigative advice', so the timescale is normal here.

It's the CPS that decides what charges, if any, will be made, it's the CPS that took the decision that no further action would be taken in this case.


----------



## SE25 (Apr 10, 2018)

Burglars really are absolute vermin. I live at home with my mum and nan and it has occurred to me that it's on my and my brother to protect the house. Can't imagine how terrifying it'd be for us to deal with some cunt in our home, never mind for older people with limited mobility and whatnot

well done the old boy


----------



## crossthebreeze (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The fact they haven't yet spoken to him - the bloke who may well have been a witness to the stabbing - makes it odd that the police announced no further action against the pensioner last Friday. Not suggesting there would be any other outcome - and rightly - but the OB did seem keen to keep ahead of public opinion on this one and acted _very_ quickly.  I've not much sympathy for the bloke who got killed given the way he was preying on the elderly, but the OB have, essentially, interviewed one person on a fatal stabbing - the bloke who did it - and accepted his word. Again, to be clear, I've every sympathy with the old bloke and glad he's not had to go through it for a fortnight, but there seems to have been a willingness to at the very least truncate the whole thing to stop the police coming under media fire.


No that makes it more of an open and shut case.  If the accomplice stayed with his mate and had a story that clashed with what the pensioner said then that would be one thing.  But leaving your accomplice dying in the street, running off, burning your van out, and going into hiding is a big signal that the two of you weren't there innocently and you don't have anything to add that you care about more than saving your own back.  Then forensics will have corroborated the pensioner's story, so they don't need a witness.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

nardy said:


> The reasoning being scrote enterprise. If there hadn't been attempted or actual crime, no police bullet would have been fired. All scrotes generated the crime, all scrotes supported the crime, thus all scrotes are responsible for any possible consequences, which are not difficult to predict.


No, this goes much further than joint enterprise. With JE they are all prosecuted equally for a crime that one or more of _them_ committed. Here they are being prosecuted for the killing of one of their own number by a policeman.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 10, 2018)

coley said:


> Tony, the bigger worry is that there isn't a load of ordinary people giving them grief for doing so.





moochedit said:


> Been taken down now.
> 
> Angry locals tear down vile 'tributes' to burglar killed by hero OAP



It's a wee bit twisted that they're leaving them outside the home of their scumbag relatives victim. 

This veneration of the criminal, it's appalling. Me, I'm embarrassed to come from a family that commited similar criminal acts (and much worse). I cannot conceive of flaunting these connections with pride. 

I'm glad to see locals have pulled down the tributes. I'm disappointed they didn't piss on them afterwards.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

It’s going to be friends and family (and maybe one or two U75 posters) leaving the flowers.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 10, 2018)

xenon said:


> Not seen any traveller connection mentioned at all on here. Red herring IMO.



From that DM article :

A traveller friend of a burglar stabbed to death by his victim has warned his friends and family 'won't rest until they get revenge'.

The man, who once beat career criminal Henry Vincent, 37, in a bare knuckle fight, told MailOnline his relatives are seeking revenge after Richard Osborn-Brooks, 78, 'killed one of their own'.


----------



## Looby (Apr 10, 2018)

The flowers were mainly from his children and partner apparently. He was clearly a fucking scumbag but even scumbags have people they love and who loved them so I’m not going to condemn his family for grieving for him. 
Pretty fucking shit putting the flowers opposite the house though and does seem more like a warning than a tribute but who knows.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 10, 2018)

Looby said:


> The flowers were mainly from his children and partner apparently. He was clearly a fucking scumbag but even scumbags have people they love and who loved them so I’m not going to condemn his family for grieving for him.
> Pretty fucking shit putting the flowers opposite the house though and does seem more like a warning than a tribute but who knows.



That don't wash. 

His children and partner (and othet assorted scumbag relatives) knew how he died, they can do their memorial and grieving elsewhere. It must be tough to lose somwons but all the same, they knew what he was and how he lived. This is on him and his family, it's their fault. If they want to mark where he truly died, they need leave their poxy tributes at home. 

Leaving them outside the old boys house seems more like intimidation to me as well as being crass and insensitive.


----------



## Looby (Apr 10, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> That don't wash.
> 
> His children and partner (and othet assorted scumbag relatives) knew how he died, they can do their memorial and grieving elsewhere. It must be tough to lose somwons but all the same, they knew what he was and how he lived. This is on him and his family, it's their fault. If they want to mark where he truly died, they need leave their poxy tributes at home.
> 
> Leaving them outside the old boys house seems more like intimidation to me as well as being crass and insensitive.


How is that different to what I said? The bit about the flowers I mean.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

Looby said:


> The flowers were mainly from his children and partner apparently. He was clearly a fucking scumbag but even scumbags have people they love and who loved them so I’m not going to condemn his family for grieving for him.
> Pretty fucking shit putting the flowers opposite the house though and does seem more like a warning than a tribute but who knows.


Not to mention attaching the stuff to other people's fences, walls, etc. In the circumstances, you'd have to be pretty insensitive not to see the scope for causing upset or provocation.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

And if it were my fence or wall, I'd be out there snipping the strings of the tacky helium balloons, and moving everything off my property. They can stick it on the bloody pavement if they want to stick it anywhere. #hardman


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

Looby said:


> ... does seem more like a warning than a tribute but who knows.


Absolutely. It's a message, plain and simple.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 10, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. It's a message, plain and simple.



“We know where you live and we’ve visited your street.”


----------



## Looby (Apr 10, 2018)

existentialist said:


> And if it were my fence or wall, I'd be out there snipping the strings of the tacky helium balloons, and moving everything off my property. They can stick it on the bloody pavement if they want to stick it anywhere. #hardman


I think I might feel pretty intimidated if it was my wall though, I could understand if the residents didn’t move them.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 10, 2018)

The people leaving the tributes must be pretty fucking dim, given there's almost certainly still a police presence there. Anything happens to the old boy then they'll know where to start looking.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

crossthebreeze said:


> No that makes it more of an open and shut case.  If the accomplice stayed with his mate and had a story that clashed with what the pensioner said then that would be one thing.  But leaving your accomplice dying in the street, running off, burning your van out, and going into hiding is a big signal that the two of you weren't there innocently and you don't have anything to add that you care about more than saving your own back.  Then forensics will have corroborated the pensioner's story, so they don't need a witness.


You've got me wrong if you think I'm arguing an injustice has been done - and I'll go along with the word 'scumbag' that has been used several times in the thread. It's fucking disgusting to make a life out of preying on the elderly. And ditto in terms of the bloke who ran off. But it doesn't follow that because he ran off that he had nothing to say about the case.  I think there's every chance that what he would have said would have corroborated the pensioners story which, I imagine was something along the lines of 'came across the burglars, one of them armed with a screwdriver... scuffle... stabbed him in self defence'.  However, it still seems odd that the police would call the case (via the cps) without speaking to the one person who (probably) witnessed it. There have certainly been longer investigations in similar cases in the past, at least from memory.  So, after all that, the only point I'm making is that the police had a PR narrative in mind and didn't want it to play out.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> You've got me wrong if you think I'm arguing an injustice has been done - and I'll go along with the word 'scumbag' that has been used several times in the thread. It's fucking disgusting to make a life out of preying on the elderly. And ditto in terms of the bloke who ran off. But it doesn't follow that because he ran off that he had nothing to say about the case.  I think there's every chance that what he would have said would have corroborated the pensioners story which, I imagine was something along the lines of 'came across the burglars, one of them armed with a screwdriver... scuffle... stabbed him in self defence'.  However, it still seems odd that the police would call the case (via the cps) without speaking to the one person who (probably) witnessed it. There have certainly been longer investigations in similar cases in the past, at least from memory.  So, after all that, the only point I'm making is that the police had a PR narrative in mind and didn't want it to play out.


The police will have been only too aware of how this was going to pan out, and wouldn't have wanted to be seen to be hanging on to the old guy any longer than absolutely necessary 

But let's face it, he's now in, effectively  protective custody. He's probably not able to do much without the police being aware anyway  and if additional information were to come to light, they know exactly where to find him. Win/win from their point of view.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

As I said, in reply to sealion, back at post #45:



cupid_stunt said:


> sealion said:
> 
> 
> > It will go to the cps to decide.
> ...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 10, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. It's a message, plain and simple.


 
Its more than that, it may not be planned but it disseminates the clan name and reputation further and wider. You would think that an incident like this would give some pause for reflection by the family to consider how their choices impact others, but it will likely go the other way. See how many  hangers on turn up for the funeral cortege and see how the press will use this as their default headline if there is nothing better to stick on the front page. I utterly fucking detest shitty criminal clans like this, notoriety emoboldens them & often has the effect of dragging in peripheral family members into the judicious use of the name. awful awful awful cunts. 

/ sorry for bad language


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 10, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Its more than that, it may not be planned but it disseminates the clan name and reputation further and wider. You would think that an incident like this would give some pause for reflection by the family to consider how their choices impact others, but it will likely go the other way. See how many  hangers on turn up for the funeral cortege and see how the press will use this as their default headline if there is nothing better to stick on the front page. I utterly fucking detest shitty criminal clans like this, notoriety emoboldens them & often has the effect of dragging in peripheral family members into the judicious use of the name. awful awful awful cunts.
> 
> / sorry for bad language




Bad language? You put it much more eloquently than I ever could!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 10, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Its more than that, it may not be planned but it disseminates the clan name and reputation further and wider. You would think that an incident like this would give some pause for reflection by the family to consider how their choices impact others, but it will likely go the other way. See how many  hangers on turn up for the funeral cortege and see how the press will use this as their default headline if there is nothing better to stick on the front page. I utterly fucking detest shitty criminal clans like this, notoriety emoboldens them & often has the effect of dragging in peripheral family members into the judicious use of the name. awful awful awful cunts.



Spot on. Similar shows of strength are made when gang members get offed. Behind the symbols of 'respect' and commemoration is a) the visual/physical marking of territory and b) a reminder to the wider communiy about who is in control.

In Birmingham recently a gang member's house was painted/graffitied on the outside with messages, tags and reminders with tributes to 'the fallen soldier'. It was, I thought, a visually stunning image and and a powerful message to other gangs, the police and most importantly those living amongst it about who was in control.	

Your peripheralisation point - in respect of gangs and how those around them whether family or mates or just acquantances  are pulled further in by this type of stuff - is a really important one for those interested in thinking through how they can be effectively challenged in WC areas. 

In this South London case, the message could not be clearer. We will still be here, when the police and the media have moved on. We can come here when we like. The effect is that this couple will either need to be uprooted and to spend their last years preumably outside of the community they like and where they know people and have support etc or alternatively live in cuircumstances where very knock at the door or bump in the night causes fear.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Spot on. Similar shows of strength are made when gang members get offed. Behind the symbols of 'respect' and commemoration is the a) the visual/physical marking of territory and b) a reminder to the wider communiy about who is in control.
> 
> In Birmingham recently a gang member's house was painted/graffitied on the outside with messages, tags and reminders with tributes to 'the fallen soldier'. It was, I thought, a visually stunning image and and a powerful message to other gangs, the police and most impotantly those living amongst it about who was in control.
> 
> ...


yeh their last years elsewhere or their last weeks or months where they are.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2018)

Be a real shame if the “clan” got stopped and searcher regularly


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Spot on. Similar shows of strength are made when gang members get offed. Behind the symbols of 'respect' and commemoration is a) the visual/physical marking of territory and b) a reminder to the wider communiy about who is in control.
> 
> In Birmingham recently a gang member's house was painted/graffitied on the outside with messages, tags and reminders with tributes to 'the fallen soldier'. It was, I thought, a visually stunning image and and a powerful message to other gangs, the police and most importantly those living amongst it about who was in control.
> 
> ...


I think there's also an element of 'performance' to it as well, from relatives and others as you say, drawn in. Ditto any threats and talk of revenge. It's the thing you do, incorporated into bereavement, incorporated into a sense of 'we're still here, we've lost somebody, but we still have a form of power'.  Having said that, that's one side of the equation only. If I was the one living in the house where this 'performance' was taking place, I'd be fucking terrified and would feel vulnerable for years to come. There have been and still are revenge attacks, I just don't see it happening in this case.


----------



## gosub (Apr 10, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> I rather suspect the old bill have thought of this and are putting measures in place. If nothing else it'd be good procedure.
> 
> Also, this wanky family. Aurely even they'd be able to see that retribution on this case would bring a whole shit storm down on them. They caused this to happen by being such a bunch of cunts and using crime as the family trade, this whole tragedy is on them. They should take their licks and just fuck off.


The deceased family are as unlikely to be so stupid as not to wait for the dust to settle.  As for your faith in the police in my experience you are being utterly naive.
It'll will be the victim, sadly, who would be wise to move, and cos of what? for not being quite the soft touch a 78 year old was supposed to be.


The world sucks


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I think there's also an element of 'performance' to it as well, from relatives and others as you say, drawn in. Ditto any threats and talk of revenge. It's the thing you do, incorporated into bereavement, incorporated into a sense of 'we're still here, we've lost somebody, but we still have a form of power'.  Having said that, that's one side of the equation only. If I was the one living in the house where this 'performance' was taking place, I'd be fucking terrified and would feel vulnerable for years to come. There have been and still are revenge attacks,* I just don't see it happening in this case.*



You have more faith than me!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You have more faith than me!


Yeah, certainly in the _short term_, there's a good chance the family or his mates would do something - maybe something significant - but I doubt it in the long term. And they aren't going to be able to get at him in the short term. Can't be specific because I don't know the family, but once the dust settles it will be hard to portray the burglar as a 'fallen soldier' or similar bollocks. The potential for revenge attacks isn't tightly linked to how the person died, but there will at least be a nagging doubt, given that the bloke died terrifying a pensioner in his own home.  Suppose what I mean is, in the cold light of day, there's not much honour to be had killing a pensioner. More likely to be an ongoing facebook campaign of threats against him, with consequent arrests for that.


----------



## bemused (Apr 10, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You have more faith than me!



I suspect they'll have CCTV placed around his house for a few months.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Be a real shame if the “clan” got stopped and searcher regularly



Would be even more of a shame if all of the fuckers were evicted from their housing associated provided home


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Would be even more of a shame if all of the fuckers were evicted from their housing associated provided home


... and their kids?


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> ... and their kids?



The family can afford to buy a nice new shiny house out of the hundreds of thousands of pounds they extorted from vulnerable people.

Charged a pensioner £72,000 to replace one roof tile. Another was made to sign over her £150,000 house having already handed over her £28,000 life savings.

Families (including kids) can be evicted for anti-social behaviour.

Pretty anti-social behaviour I'd say.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

dp


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> The family can afford to buy a nice new shiny house out of the hundreds of thousands of pounds they extorted from vulnerable people.
> 
> Charged a pensioner £72,000 to replace one roof tile. Another was made to sign over her £150,000 house having already handed over her £28,000 life savings.
> 
> ...


I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.


... or, less confrontationally, we have to keep a working class perspective on ASB, not join in with the right's version.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.



Given the extent and nature of their extortion any benefits should be cut-off.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Given the extent and nature of their extortion any benefits should be cut-off.


How far would you go with that principle?


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> How far would you go with that principle?



Let's turn it on its head. Give me a convincing case why they should receive benefits. 

In fact, they've got a fucking cheek claiming them in the first place.

Why should they have a subsidised housing association dwelling?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> How far would you go with that principle?



Cut off their goolies!


----------



## sealion (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Given the extent and nature of their extortion any benefits should be cut-off.


They are driving around in top of the range audis and charging thousands for a roof tile, surely they are not eligable for benefits


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

sealion said:


> They are driving around in top of the range audis and charging thousands for a roof tile, surely they are not eligable for benefits



Given they are such honest and upstanding pillars of the community I'm sure every penny is declared to both the DWP and HMRC.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Let's turn it on its head. Give me a convincing case why they should receive benefits.
> 
> In fact, they've got a fucking cheek claiming them in the first place.
> 
> Why should they have a subsidised housing association dwelling?


Firstly, I don't know whether they are on benefits or not anyway.  Secondly, I don't really give a fuck what happens to them regardless. But really, have we got to a point where you have to justify why someone might get benefits/social housing. They should get them depending on their circumstances, like everyone else. As to _losing_ the housing, it's a case of what the tenancy agreement includes for ASB, it's a case of whether they have harassed their neighbours. If that process leads to them getting kicked out, I'm not particularly fussed. But I'm not joining in 'evict them, cut their benefits' calls that are pure knee jerk.


----------



## JimW (Apr 10, 2018)

Social housing isn't subsidised!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

JimW said:


> Social housing isn't subsidised!


No, no, they pay all your bills and it's all free Xboxes, while the rest of us have to...


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Firstly, I don't know whether they are on benefits or not anyway.  Secondly, I don't really give a fuck what happens to them regardless. But really, have we got to a point where you have to justify why someone might get benefits/social housing. They should get them depending on their circumstances, like everyone else. As to _losing_ the housing, it's a case of what the tenancy agreement includes for ASB, it's a case of whether they have harassed their neighbours. If that process leads to them getting kicked out, I'm not particularly fussed. But I'm not joining in 'evict them, cut their benefits' calls that are pure knee jerk.



Their "circumstances" are they a bunch of thieving cunts who would think nothing of robbing you and your family blind and have extorted hundreds and thousands of pounds from pensioners.

Of course anyone who's concerned about their financial and/or housing well-being is free to set up a Just Giving page.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 10, 2018)

slippery slope as well, give them the precedent because this guys really really shit then whats next. At a protest that went violent? caught with a bag of weed? take his bens

no


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> slippery slope as well, give them the precedent because this guys really really shit then whats next. At a protest that went violent? caught with a bag of weed? take his bens
> 
> no


Exactly.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

They are scum, and IF they are on benefits, there's justification for an investigation into if they are entitled to them. Likewise if they are in breach of an tenancy agreement, due to anti-social behaviour, that needs dealing with.

But, that's it, you can't go beyond the rules, regulations & law.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> slippery slope as well, give them the precedent because this guys really really shit then whats next. At a protest that went violent? caught with a bag of weed? take his bens
> 
> no



So you're saying no-one should ever be evicted for anti-social behaviour in any circumstances. Ever.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Exactly.



Translation?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

8ball said:


> Translation?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So you're saying no-one should ever be evicted for anti-social behaviour in any circumstances. Ever.


No, he's not saying anything of the sort. Don't be fucking stupid.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So you're saying no-one should ever be evicted for anti-social behaviour in any circumstances. Ever.


am I? news to me- I think thats what you wanted me to have said though.

OK here, in the style of arguing against what the other person hasn't said 'So you want all incidences of anti social behaviour to met with an immediate withdrawal of all benefits?' hows that? close or _fucking miles off_


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Be a real shame if the “clan” got stopped and searcher regularly



If they're an established criminal family of any standing they'll have the police in pocket already.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Their "circumstances" are they a bunch of thieving cunts who would think nothing of robbing you and your family blind and have extorted hundreds and thousands of pounds from pensioners.



Yes.  They should declare their income from robbing to the Revenue, the sneaky bastards.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> am I? news to me- I think thats what you wanted me to have said though.
> 
> OK here, in the style of arguing against what the other person hasn't said 'So you want all incidences of anti social behaviour to met with an immediate withdrawal of all benefits?' hows that? close or _fucking miles off_



So let's get this straight. You accept that benefits can be withdrawn in some circumstances or not?

Or people can be evicted in some cases of ASB or not?

If yes to either or both under what circumstances?

Why isn't that a "slippery slope"?


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

dp


----------



## 8ball (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


>



Ignore me, I got there in the end...


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

8ball said:


> Ignore me, I got there in the end...


No such luck for our happy chapstick, I fear.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.



People can and do get evicted from social housing for anti-social behaviour. What are the other options given the usual alternative is for the community having to put up with it?

Edit: actually you seem sort of in agreement with that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So let's get this straight. You accept that benefits can be withdrawn in some circumstances or not?
> 
> Or people can be evicted in some cases of ASB or not?
> 
> ...



its difficult- not as difficult as it should be really- to evict people. It can be done and it is done but even in the cases of hell neighbours its still not a streamlined process decided instantly. Nor should it be. I mean if you are up for further erosion of tenants rights and further capricious cost cutting from the DWP then by all means. Away you go with that, don't expect me to cheer you on. But I'm sure that once you win and tenants right for people on benefits are rendered virtually worthless it will only be very bad people who lose their houses.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So let's get this straight. You accept that benefits can be withdrawn in some circumstances or not?
> 
> Or people can be evicted in some cases of ASB or not?
> 
> ...


You've actually picked a good thread for doing this. Just about everybody posting on it thinks the bloke who died and many of his family were genuine cunts, parasites. There has been virtually no idealist lefty stuff about them. But still, you've somehow lost your advantage. 

Anyway, the holy trinity: we've had _take their council house away_, we've had _stop their benefits_.  Come on now, finish the job! Go for the big one------ _*'hanging's too good for 'em'*_.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 10, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> its difficult- not as difficult as it should be really- to evict people. It can be done and it is done but even in the cases of hell neighbours its still not a streamlined process decided instantly. Nor should it be. I mean if you are up for further erosion of tenants rights and further capricious cost cutting from the DWP then by all means. Away you go with that, don't expect me to cheer you on. But I'm sure that once you win and tenants right for people on benefits are rendered virtually worthless it will only be very bad people who lose their houses.



Tennants' rights are borderline worthless as it is tbf.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> People can and do get evicted from social housing for anti-social behaviour. What are the other options given the usual alternative is for the community having to put up with it?.



There are other alternatives.  Just not legal ones.  They happen from time to time.  Usually not in the case of families like this, though.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 10, 2018)

coley said:


> Think ddraig has a long memory, I had a pop many years ago at 'low lifes' in my area who masqueraded as 'travellers'
> But, a scumbag is a scumbag,  irrespective of colour, ethnic background or whatever.


dear coley, apologies if i got your post totally wrong, my mistake


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> its difficult- not as difficult as it should be really- to evict people. It can be done and it is done but even in the cases of hell neighbours its still not a streamlined process decided instantly. Nor should it be. I mean if you are up for further erosion of tenants rights and further capricious cost cutting from the DWP then by all means. Away you go with that, don't expect me to cheer you on. But I'm sure that once you win and tenants right for people on benefits are rendered virtually worthless it will only be very bad people who lose their houses.



So you do accept that people can be evicted for ASB but you haven't explained why that isn't a "slippery slope". 

At least be consistent with the "slippery slope" argument and say no-one should ever be evicted under any circumstances.

Otherwise all you're doing is pitching the start of the slippery slope in position that suits your outlook.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> People can and do get evicted from social housing for anti-social behaviour. What are the other options given the usual alternative is for the community having to put up with it?
> 
> Edit: actually you seem sort of in agreement with that.


Yeah, I'm sort of trapped between a vaguely IWCA perspective of how to approach ASB and the bureaucratic/'asbo'/local authority version - in the absence of the former, agreeing with _the occasional_ outcome of the latter if not the underlying politics iyswim).

Edit: that doesn't really say what I mean. I don't agree with the New Labour/asbo approach _at all_. However I do think it was a response to what were real problems - problems experienced by individuals and communities. The thing about the left traditionally being poor on asb and crime, as discussed a few pages back.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So you do accept that people can be evicted for ASB but you haven't explained why that isn't a "slippery slope".
> 
> At least be consistent with the "slippery slope" argument and say no-one should ever be evicted under any circumstances.
> 
> Otherwise all you're doing is pitching the start of the slippery slope in position that suits your outlook.


you don't think making it easier to evict people based on the crimes of the very worst won't come back to bite everyone else on the arse? 

landlords would welcome such moves


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

Possibly I'm still not clear about your slippery slope argument.

If you agree that there can evictions under certain circumstances then you have to explain why this isn't a slippery slope.

The alternative is to support a position of no evictions under any circumstances.

It's either one or the other.


----------



## agricola (Apr 10, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> you don't think making it easier to evict people based on the crimes of the very worst won't come back to bite everyone else on the arse?
> 
> landlords would welcome such moves



I am not sure that they would - after all, landlords have got most of what they would once have welcomed already.  If anything they would probably tend to resist legislation with regards to families committing crime because it would almost certainly lead to them being liable for housing the family there in the first place.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Possibly I'm still not clear about your slippery slope argument.
> 
> If you agree that there can evictions under certain circumstances be then you have to explain why this isn't a slippery slope.
> 
> ...


Have this family harassed and fucked over their neighbours over a long period, ignoring all warnings? Reasonable to think about evictions.
Have they still got hundreds of thousands squirelled away from their crimes? Might not have/probably didn't mention when applied to housing assoc? Grey area.
Do you know the answer to any of this?  If not, you are just daily mailing away about a group of, admittedly, cuntish people.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Possibly I'm still not clear about your slippery slope argument.
> 
> If you agree that there can evictions under certain circumstances then you have to explain why this isn't a slippery slope.
> 
> ...


False dichotomy


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Have this family harassed and fucked over their neighbours over a long period, ignoring all warnings? Reasonable to think about evictions.
> Have they still got hundreds of thousands squirelled away from their crimes? Might not have/probably didn't mention when applied to housing assoc? Grey area.
> Do you know the answer to any of this?  If not, you are just daily mailing away about a group of, admittedly, cuntish people.



So you accept there can be evictions. Why isn't that a slippery slope?


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

existentialist said:


> False dichotomy



Why?


----------



## andysays (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So you accept there can be evictions. Why isn't that a slippery slope?


Your mum is a slippery slope


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> So you accept there can be evictions. Why isn't that a slippery slope?


There's a difference between criteria/systems and slippery slopes, or else by your seeming logic everything would be a slippery slope.

I'm not putting council/housing assoc centred systems as the response to anything or proposing it as a form of politics. I'm just saying that 'they are cunts - evict them!' isn't how it should go.  Bureaucracy isn't a good system, but it trumps daily mailism when it comes to kicking somobdoy out of their home.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 10, 2018)

andysays said:


> Your mum is a slippery slope



Sadly for you slagging* off my (long dead) mum isn't going to make be flounce off this thread but I've got an appointment to attend.

I'm more than happy to defend and argue my position. I thought this was the purpose of these boards. Stupid me.

* Please feel free to call my mum a slag while you're at it.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Why?


Because.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 10, 2018)

Meanwhile, ...

Tributes to Hither Green 'burglar' Henry Vincent _replaced_ by family (click for more)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526





(Source: BBC)​


----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Meanwhile, ...
> 
> Tributes to Hither Green 'burglar' Henry Vincent _replaced_ by family (click for more)
> 
> ...


 police should do them for harassment   the whole shrine should be binned and any attempt to replace should go as well. its scum trying to scent mark and area.
  need some good old community policing via black and decker


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

Twats.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

No doubt local florists are behind this latest outrage: 'somebody pulled 'em down again? Yeah, sorry to hear that, wanna buy some more?'


----------



## sealion (Apr 10, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> If they're an established criminal family of any standing they'll have the police in pocket already.


Well they're not .They are cowardly petty thieves that prey on the vulnerable and weak.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 10, 2018)

sealion said:


> Well they're not .They are cowardly petty thieves that prey on the vulnerable and weak.



But what about the criminals etc.


----------



## sealion (Apr 10, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> But what about the criminals etc.


What ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 10, 2018)

sealion said:


> What ?



I was doing a bit. Making out that your post was referring to the coppers, not the crooks.

In any case, being a shower of horrible villainous scum in no way precludes them having favourable contacts in the local police. It's not like bent coppers have standards is it? They're bent coppers, by definition they're lower than a snake's scrotum.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

Shut up, Frank.


----------



## sealion (Apr 10, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> by definition they're lower than a snake's scrotum


Along with cunts that rob pensioners.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2018)

bent coppers I'd imagine want to take bribes off crims who can keep their act together not get killed by a pensioner and leave their mate for dead not exactly the sopranos are they?.



somebody should ship them a large quantity of fentanl its not drug abuse its pest control


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

Daily Mail-ometer twitches.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> somebody should ship them a large quantity of fentanl its not drug abuse its pest control


Cunt


----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2018)

danny dyers not making a film about you if you get killed by an OAP are they


----------



## extra dry (Apr 10, 2018)

I am sure a 17th century ruler called Vald would have made a point of the whole family by now.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 10, 2018)

Wilf said:


> No doubt local florists are behind this latest outrage: 'somebody pulled 'em down again? Yeah, sorry to hear that, wanna buy some more?'



i doubt they paid for them.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

moochedit said:


> i doubt they paid for them.


Yeah, probably nicked them from the grave of a dead Falklands veteran... cont. p. 94.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> “We know where you live and we’ve visited your street.”



Yep, with all the media and police attention, leaving a horses head on his doorstep would be way too obvious. This sends the same message but they can deny it.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Yep, with all the media and police attention, leaving a horses head on his doorstep would be way too obvious. This sends the same message but they can deny it.


I'm sure there's an element of 'fuck you' or even 'we know where you live' about the tributes. But I've also seen a couple of clips of people saying stuff along the lines of 'we just wanted to leave some flowers... he was a son/brother' type thing. Sounded genuine - and why wouldn't they be? Yet another case of things being messy/complex.


----------



## Looby (Apr 10, 2018)

Jesus Christ, this thread is getting more and more Daily Mail by the minute.
It just feels like an excuse for ‘chav’ bashing now. What’s next, single mothers? Have we covered travellers enough yet? Laughing at their fucking ugg boots etc Surely we’re better than this. 

Yes he and some of his family have done awful things but there’s a lot of hateful stuff being said here that feels far bigger than being targeted at the bloke who actually burgled the house.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

andysays said:


> Your mum is a slippery slope


You'd better hope that HC isn't of far eastern heritage!


----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2018)

no, they are an awful family of crims who are trying to intimidate  an old man  who didn't lay down  die


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 10, 2018)

Maybe it would be helpful in soothing tempers if *Billy Jeeves* (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, would come forward to help clear up any misunderstandings as to what took place in the premises concerned.

Apparently, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.

I feel certain that this would be helpful to all.

Does anyone know why he has not come forward to assist?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Does anyone know why he has not come forward to assist?



Because he's shitting himself.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 10, 2018)

> The fact they haven't yet spoken to him - the bloke who may well have been a witness to the stabbing - makes it odd that the police announced no further action against the pensioner last Friday. Not suggesting there would be any other outcome - and rightly - but the OB did seem keen to keep ahead of public opinion on this one and acted _very_ quickly. I've not much sympathy for the bloke who got killed given the way he was preying on the elderly, but the OB have, essentially, interviewed one person on a fatal stabbing - the bloke who did it - and accepted his word. Again, to be clear, I've every sympathy with the old bloke and glad he's not had to go through it for a fortnight, but there seems to have been a willingness to at the very least truncate the whole thing to stop the police coming under media fire.






No doubt decisions will be reviewed once the Metropolitan Police have heard from *Mr Jevees* (above) - presumably that is why they have indicated an anxiety to discuss the incident with him.

It seems strange that he does not seem as anxious as they are to discuss the incident.


----------



## AverageJoe (Apr 10, 2018)

Wow. The news just showed the family putting back up the flowers when suddenly a third party turned up and started stamping on the flowers 

Looks like that family has beef with other families


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 10, 2018)

> Does anyone know why he has not come forward to assist?





> Because he's sh*tting himself.






For *Billy Jeeves* (above) and the grieving relatives of the Late *Henry Vincent*, that need not be any barrier to progress.

Lavatory paper is cheaper than flowers.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 10, 2018)

Has anyone called them Pikeys yet?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

AverageJoe said:


> Wow. The news just showed the family putting back up the flowers when suddenly a third party turned up and started stamping on the flowers
> 
> Looks like that family has beef with other families



I think they have beef with the world.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Apr 10, 2018)

Looby said:


> Jesus Christ, this thread is getting more and more Daily Mail by the minute.
> It just feels like an excuse for ‘chav’ bashing now. What’s next, single mothers? Have we covered travellers enough yet? Laughing at their fucking ugg boots etc Surely we’re better than this.
> 
> Yes he and some of his family have done awful things but there’s a lot of hateful stuff being said here that feels far bigger than being targeted at the bloke who actually burgled the house.



Hence my dailymail75.net comment on the first page of this thread. It was clear where it was going even then.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

Yep. Everyone who doesn't give a tinker's cuss for armed robbers of pensioners and wishes them ill is a DAILY MAIL reader! 

Idiots.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Apr 10, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> Has anyone called them Pikeys yet?



No.  You're the only one to use that word.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 10, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> No.  You're the only one to use that word.


Just checking


----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2018)

I did predict the passive aggresive display of flowers and claiming he had a heart of gold just not to strangers with cash


----------



## xenon (Apr 10, 2018)

As much Daily Mail as handwringing wet blankets then.


----------



## andysays (Apr 10, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. Everyone who doesn't give a tinker's cuss for armed robbers of pensioners and wishes them ill is a DAILY MAIL reader!
> 
> Idiots.


We do seem to love a good polarised debate here, don't we.

I find myself in the confusing position of thinking the two burglars who carried this out are cunts and not being terribly concerned that one of them is now dead, and simultaneously not thinking that their families should be evicted from their homes and/or stripped of any state benefits they may currently be receiving.

I just can't make up my mind if I'm a Daily Mail reader or a Guardianista, because of course every situation however complex can and should be reduced to a stark choice between those two polarities...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2018)

andysays - same position as me, and I believe the majority on here, after all it's common sense.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

andysays said:


> I find myself in the confusing position of thinking the two burglars who carried this out are cunts and not being terribly concerned that one of them is now dead, and simultaneously not thinking that their families should be evicted from their homes and/or stripped of any state benefits they may currently be receiving.


I don't think many people are serious about evicting the families (unless they're causing anti-social problems). After all that just displaces the problem to somewhere else. However most of the reporting on this suggests that the families are just as bad as dead wanker, so if that's the case forgive me for not giving a fuck about them either.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 10, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. Everyone who doesn't give a tinker's cuss for armed robbers of pensioners and wishes them ill is a DAILY MAIL reader!
> 
> Idiots.



You can almost hear the disappointment that they can’t extend the smug ‘daily mail’ reader analogy to any criticism of the perp. Initial attempts to portray him as no doubt driven by ‘the cuts’ to acquisitive crime ran aground when his CV became public.

But still the determination to side with lumpen elements engaged in activity that is directly against the interests of those they profess ambition to speak for persists.


----------



## coley (Apr 10, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> Has anyone called them Pikeys yet?



No, "low Life scumbag" seems to be the 'description of choice', much more apt in the circumstances.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 10, 2018)

AverageJoe said:


> Wow. The news just showed the family putting back up the flowers when suddenly a third party turned up and started stamping on the flowers
> 
> Looks like that family has beef with other families



Looks like the local community are responding rather than an interfamily beef to be honest


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You can almost hear the disappointment that they can’t extend the smug ‘daily mail’ reader analogy to any criticism of the perp. Initial attempts to portray him as no doubt driven by ‘the cuts’ to acquisitive crime ran aground when his CV became public.
> 
> But still the determination to side with lumpen elements engaged in activity that is directly against the interests of those they profess ambition to speak for persists.


It's the Urban way but for some reason most of the usual plonkers have given this thread a swerve.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 10, 2018)

will be interesting to see what further info comes out on this - the screwdriver, if carried by the burglar, serves as both a tool for access and a weapon - its the difference between being done for going equipped for thieving and carrying a weapon - the burglars know this well enough.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 10, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's the Urban way but for some reason most of the usual plonkers have given this thread a swerve.



Because most people aren't in much disagreement over the rights and wrongs of what happened here. I applaud the efforts to keep on bickering anyway, though.


----------



## AverageJoe (Apr 10, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Looks like the local community are responding rather than an interfamily beef to be honest



I dunno. Check the video on this link.

Memorial to Hither Green burglar repeatedly desecrated


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 10, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Because most people aren't in much disagreement over the rights and wrongs of what happened here.


Not the ones who've posted here anyway.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 10, 2018)

coley said:


> No, "low Life scumbag" seems to be the 'description of choice', much more apt in the circumstances.


Seems fair


----------



## agricola (Apr 10, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> will be interesting to see what further info comes out on this - the screwdriver, if carried by the burglar, serves as both a tool for access and a weapon - its the difference between being done for going equipped for thieving and carrying a weapon - the burglars know this well enough.



Not really, the sentences are broadly similar (3 years vs 4 years), it is an easy arrest to make (especially if they have previous for burglary and/or its at odd times of the day) and the moment they use a screwdriver as a weapon during a burglary then it becomes one in terms of the law (making the burglary aggravated).


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 10, 2018)

Seriously trying to put myself a little and more honestly closer to this...M_y mum wakes up and finds a couple of burglars in her house, is threatened/intimidated by one of them who is armed with a screwdriver which can be used to stab and wound, they scuffle, she fights back and stabs one of them...they die whilst fleeing. Tributes go up to the burglar near my mum's house, my mum can no longer live there, is being threatened and her place is boarded up. The story is all over the news public opinion divided etc._


My mum would now be homeless, traumatised, under threat of death and having to start again elsewhere...because someone burgled her home....

Hmmm....


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> _The story is all over the news *public opinion divided etc.*_



Is it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is it?



Why not state your position instead of this fucking pathetic pretense at questioning?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Why not state your position instead of this fucking pathetic pretense at questioning?



I haven’t seen much evidence of public opinion being divided on this. 
My position is clear, I’m assuming you haven’t read the thread then.


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## bemused (Apr 10, 2018)

At this point can't they just be banned them from coming within 1km of his house?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2018)

Looby said:


> Jesus Christ, this thread is getting more and more Daily Mail by the minute.
> It just feels like an excuse for ‘chav’ bashing now. What’s next, single mothers? Have we covered travellers enough yet? Laughing at their fucking ugg boots etc Surely we’re better than this.
> 
> Yes he and some of his family have done awful things but there’s a lot of hateful stuff being said here that feels far bigger than being targeted at the bloke who actually burgled the house.


This. The ugg boots thing was pretty shit, but we've had posters wishing an overdose on them since then, along with cutting their benefits and evicting them. Fucking hell. Shouldn't be that difficult to say the original burglar was a predatory cunt and that some of his family have been the same over the years without resorting to this beneath the line shite. Those involved were predatory cunts full stop, but not because they were part of a social group that this killing seems to have given people permission to express their contempt of.


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## coley (Apr 11, 2018)

Flowers left for burglar 'an insult'
Not me, honestly


----------



## coley (Apr 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is it?



Possibly divided? certainly not "equally"


----------



## coley (Apr 11, 2018)

bemused said:


> At this point can't they just be banned them from coming within 1km of his house?


The difficulty is identifying the "they"


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

AverageJoe said:


> I dunno. Check the video on this link.
> 
> Memorial to Hither Green burglar repeatedly desecrated


Nice to see the press in pole position to film his 'desecration of the shrine'. I'm not sure where a beanie hat sits in the hierarchy of clothes, but he did seem to be going equipped, with scissors.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Seriously trying to put myself a little and more honestly closer to this...M_y mum wakes up and finds a couple of burglars in her house, is threatened/intimidated by one of them who is armed with a screwdriver which can be used to stab and wound, they scuffle, she fights back and stabs one of them...they die whilst fleeing. Tributes go up to the burglar near my mum's house, my mum can no longer live there, is being threatened and her place is boarded up. The story is all over the news public opinion divided etc._
> 
> 
> My mum would now be homeless, traumatised, under threat of death and having to start again elsewhere...because someone burgled her home....
> ...


Me too. I've just left my mum at the weekend to go home 100 miles away. She's increasingly frail and has had attempted scammers before. It's one of the things I worry about when I can't get over there.  ASB more generally is a real problem. But portraying ASB as simply coming from 'those sort of people' is the wrong starting point for even beginning to think about solutions.

Last sentence not aimed at you Rutita1 of course, but at the thread.


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## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> No doubt local florists are behind this latest outrage: 'somebody pulled 'em down again? Yeah, sorry to hear that, wanna buy some more?'


Wow, that was literally true:  

Flowers left for burglar 'an insult'




> The bouquets have been repeatedly taken down by a man who called it an "insult" to Mr Osborn-Brooks.
> 
> A man indentifying himself as Cecil Coley said he first removed the flowers overnight on Monday after becoming "infuriated" by the tributes.
> He said: "It was a residential area they were placing flowers on. It was inappropriate, and the guy deserves no tribute."
> Cecil Coley is also the name of a 72-year-old florist who was arrested on suspicion of murder after he stabbed an armed intruder to death in 2011. He was later released without charge.


----------



## keybored (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> it's common sense


I've spotted the real DM reader here.


----------



## coley (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> This. The ugg boots thing was pretty shit, but we've had posters wishing an overdose on them since then, along with cutting their benefits and evicting them. Fucking hell. Shouldn't be that difficult to say the original burglar was a predatory cunt and that some of his family have been the same over the years without resorting to this beneath the line shite. Those involved were predatory cunts full stop, but not because they were part of a social group this killing seems to have given people permission to express their contempt of.



Fair comment, but "social group" ? Bit of a blunderbuss approximation? I belong to a "social group" ( as I suspect do many others on here) that has many 'wronguns' in there, it's called humanity.
 The WC has its fair share, as does all other groups, but the public reaction is based on 'predation' of the strong on the weak, at the level most of us have, in common experience, in our neighbourhoods( apologies to those in leafy suburbs who don't get to experience these problems, due to higher policing and council spending)
Bankers, politicians et al, most of us would like to see them get their 'just desserts'
But this case 'comes home' as this old bloke and his wife ( or in the current term 'vulnerable adults' ) could be, now, or in the future 'one of us' or a friend or a relative.
These people, low life scumbags (other adjectives are available)...thrive in certain areas because the police and politicians (of all stripes) allow it, rather than spend money on addressing the problem, out of sight, out of mind.
As an abstract thought, these 'problem families' are often found in areas where HB rates are highest! I.E., they don't pay rent or council tax  and yet they expect a police presence!!?


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## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Flowergate, aka Flowerstomp, is now at phase 3 (with the usual apologies for the source):
Dead burglar Henry Vincent's friends hit back at vigilante | Daily Mail Online


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## coley (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Flowergate, aka Flowerstomp, is now at phase 3 (with the usual apologies for the source):
> Dead burglar Henry Vincent's friends hit back at vigilante | Daily Mail Online


No doubt the "source" would obviously have used the most inflammatory photos available .....but putting flowers in memorial, with a yard of tab hinging oot of yer gob....


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

keybored said:


> I've spotted the real DM reader here.



What?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Apr 11, 2018)

It's become a macabre spectator sport, hasnt it.  Friends and family of the crim put up flowers and tributes, which are then pulled down by local residents and other people.  Then more flowers are put up by the family, which are again torn down.  All watched and encouraged by the press pack.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> It's become a macabre spectator sport, hasnt it.  Friends and family of the crim put up flowers and tributes, which are then pulled down by local residents and other people.  Then more flowers are put up by the family, which are again torn down.  All watched and encouraged by the press pack.


Who's winning?


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## not a trot (Apr 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Who's winning?



Local florist.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 11, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> It's become a macabre spectator sport, hasnt it.  Friends and family of the crim put up flowers and tributes, which are then pulled down by local residents and other people.  Then more flowers are put up by the family, which are again torn down.  All watched and encouraged by the press pack.



It is that, but it's also a more fundamental process (already discussed on here) about the marking of territory, initmidation attempts and resistance by residents. 

Two other points: 

1. The perp didn't die in the house or the street. A genuine 'memorial' would be cited where he carked it surely.
2. The police seem to have adopted an attitude of wanting everyone to go away so they can get back to whatever it is they do. They are neutral, slightly irritated, bystanders in the process.


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## Dogsauce (Apr 11, 2018)

How long until some EDL/BF types try to capitalise on this like they have been doing with paedo gangs? If the family is identified as an ‘outsider’ group like travellers then it’s a ripe situation for stirring up hate against travellers in general.


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## existentialist (Apr 11, 2018)

I think BF and the like prefer to target groups who don't look like they could fight back, on the whole.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I think BF and the like prefer to target groups who don't look like they could fight back, on the whole.



Aye, that's the last thing they need, they are too busy fighting each other.


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 11, 2018)

the DM have hit middle England rage fury Klondike with this incident . bloody hell


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 11, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> How long until some EDL/BF types try to capitalise on this like they have been doing with paedo gangs? If the family is identified as an ‘outsider’ group like travellers then it’s a ripe situation for stirring up hate against travellers in general.



Spot on. Parachute in. A protest march 'in solidarity' with residents. A bit of leafleting. Video it and stick it on social media. Job done. 

They could even guarantee the SWP and fellow traveller (excuse the pun) types would oppose it as 'racist' therefore further fixing in popular consciousness who is on which side.


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## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

According to my friends at the Daily Mail, we are now into phase 4 of Flowerstomp. 'Several women turned up at 2.10 a.m.' to reinstall the cards and flowers. Hither Green awaits today's Flowerstomp hero to restore the balance of the universe. Another round of this and we go to extra time and penalties.


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## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

not a trot said:


> Local florist.


The flower thing was my joke. Unless you donate some of the likes received to a charity of my choice, you'll be hearing from my solicitor. Disappointed.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

coley said:


> Fair comment, but "social group" ? Bit of a blunderbuss approximation? I belong to a "social group" ( as I suspect do many others on here) that has many 'wronguns' in there, it's called humanity.
> The WC has its fair share, as does all other groups, but the public reaction is based on 'predation' of the strong on the weak, at the level most of us have, in common experience, in our neighbourhoods( apologies to those in leafy suburbs who don't get to experience these problems, due to higher policing and council spending)
> Bankers, politicians et al, most of us would like to see them get their 'just desserts'
> But this case 'comes home' as this old bloke and his wife ( or in the current term 'vulnerable adults' ) could be, now, or in the future 'one of us' or a friend or a relative.
> ...


The bit about a social group was in relation to the _way_ the family have been criticised/language used. In a rarity, I think everybody on this thread would agree the burglar and those of his relatives who targeted the elderly and vulnerable were vile cunts. But some of the comments about their clothes or withdrawing benefits and social housing echoed the way the Mail and others portrayed chavs and the rest. Not only unnecessary but also inaccurate. In some ways, their behaviour puts them into a wider group of parasites such as debt collectors, slum landlords and others who prey on the working class, though that set itself isn't a social group. They are what they are, exploiters and parasites, but, at a personal level, not as part of a _social_ group.

Another point on Flowergate, I take the point others have made about territory and threat (really) and no doubt the OB are monitoring social media to watch out for the almost inevitable revenge threats there will be. But from what I've seen of the flower thing, it seems to be largely women just doing what people do when a death takes place - placing tributes. I find the whole shrine thing a bit mawkish to be honest, but this seems to be nothing too out of the ordinary. Also, without having much sympathy for the family in as much as several members have been involved in parasitic scamming, the flower thing is also complicated symbolically. Part of it is about threat and visibility, but it also indicates _powerlessness_ in that there's not really much they can do about their loss.  Not much sympathy with many members of the family, but it's still just the usual grieving process.


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## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> According to my friends at the Daily Mail, we are now into phase 4 of Flowerstomp. 'Several women turned up at 2.10 a.m.' to reinstall the cards and flowers. Hither Green awaits today's Flowerstomp hero to restore the balance of the universe. Another round of this and we go to extra time and penalties.


I hope you realise that you have made me visit the Daily Fail website and are suitably ashamed of yourself, That is a very long article that even managed to throw in a reference to how it will affect house prices in the area. 
You do get the impression that a serious confrontation is brewing which will probably end in another stabbing and that the Fail is doing its best to stir the pot up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I hope you realise that you have made me visit the Daily Fail website and are suitably ashamed of yourself, That is a very long article that even managed to throw in a reference to how it will affect house prices in the area.
> You do get the impression that a serious confrontation is brewing which will probably end in another stabbing and that the Fail is doing its best to stir the pot up.


it sells papers


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Not sure of the point I'm making here, maybe there is no logical point, but I was just struck by this. Yes, of course, the burglar is the author of his own downfall and to some extent it looks like a family business. But amid all the stuff about fucking ugg boots and stopping their benefits, the grief is genuine. To save people going to the Mail site, I'll quote it:



> Elvina Lee, who said she was Vincent's first cousin, told MailOnline: 'This is the best place for these flowers to be. I don't know what's wrong with these people (who dismantled them)…I think they're scum.
> 
> Discussing Vincent, she said: 'He was like a brother to me, he loved his family and his three babies. He wasn't a murderer, he wasn't a rapist, they're putting (sic) him as a monster. Murderer? The murderer is over there.'
> 
> ...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

In my role as urban's very own daily mail correspondent, I can now tell you that Eamon Holmes has now called for the floral tributes to be bulldozed each day. To be honest, that's a game changer - await further updates.


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## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> In my role as urban's very own daily mail correspondent, I can now tell you that Eamon Holmes has now called for the floral tributes to be bulldozed each day. To be honest, that's a game changer - await further updates.


Thanks for taking one for the team and being willing to read this shit to save the rest of us doing it but isn't a bulldozer a bit much surely a pair of scissors and a black bin bag would be more than sufficient?
Is he seriously suggesting that the fence which belongs to the guy across the street (himself an innocent bystander) should be destroyed to stop people that the Daily Fail doesn't like from doing something that isn't illegal?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> Thanks for taking one for the team and being willing to read this shit to save the rest of us doing it but isn't a bulldozer a bit much surely a pair of scissors and a black bin bag would be more than sufficient?
> Is he seriously suggesting that the fence which belongs to the guy across the street (himself an innocent bystander) should be destroyed to stop people that the Daily Fail doesn't like from doing something that isn't illegal?


does anyone listen to eamon holmes?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> does anyone listen to eamon holmes?



Bulldozer drivers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Bulldozer drivers?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> Thanks for taking one for the team and being willing to read this shit to save the rest of us doing it but isn't a bulldozer a bit much surely a pair of scissors and a black bin bag would be more than sufficient?
> Is he seriously suggesting that the fence which belongs to the guy across the street (himself an innocent bystander) should be destroyed to stop people that the Daily Fail doesn't like from doing something that isn't illegal?


Eamon's an ideas man, he doesn't do detail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Eamon's an ideas man, he doesn't do detail.


eamon holmes
he's the man
knocks down fences
blam blam blam


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> eamon holmes
> he's the man
> knocks down fences
> blam blam blam


If the new Centrist Party were looking for a leader, someone with a bit of common sense... well, it's a thought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> If the new Centrist Party were looking for a leader, someone with a bit of common sense... well, it's a thought.


yeh but no one wants a party leader with common sense.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Apr 11, 2018)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> eamon holmes
> he's the man
> knocks down fences
> blam blam blam



Eamon Holmes, knocks down homes - surely?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Eamon Holmes, knocks down homes - surely?


 No news yet on Sue Pollard or H From Steps take on Flowergate. However, my sources tell me that Vernon Kay has been commissioned to write a Guardian Editorial. They thought they'd got Peter Kay.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 11, 2018)

It became necessary to destroy the fence to save it


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

likesfish said:


> It became necessary to destroy the fence to save it


I'd buy the fence and then auction it off as a Banksy.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 11, 2018)

I'm sitting on the fence, regarding this whole sorry tale


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

*pushes krtek a houby off the fence*


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'd buy the fence and then auction it off as a Banksy.


If media generated outrage reaches religious proportions, they'll be able to sell the fence in bits. 21st Century version of The True Cross.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Eamon Holmes, knocks down homes - surely?


Yeh but we don't like to talk about that, it may be true bit he's very litigious about it


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 11, 2018)

if all the pieces of the true cross hawked over the centuries were obtained and stuck together into a new cross, it would be taller than the empire state building apparently*

*cannot remember where I read this


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Eamon Holmes, knocks down homes - surely?


Holmes Under the Hammer?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Holmes Under the Hammer?


no place like holmes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

has anyone read eamon holmes' autobiography, tearing down fences: my life in broadcasting (edinburgh: mainstream publishing, 2012)?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

I have to tell you that the tributes have been torn down a fourth time. President Trump may have to intervene.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I have to tell you that the tributes have been torn down a fourth time. President Trump may have to intervene.


when they were up they were up
and when they were down they were down
but when they were only halfway up they were neither up nor down


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I have to tell you that the tributes have been torn down a fourth time.



The war of the roses.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The war of the roses.


I'm afraid my new friends in the DM got there before you on that one. 

In an attempt at seriousness (well, sort of), there now seem to be 2 almost orderly queues, one lot putting up the flowers, another pulling them down, but never quite meeting. Plod not intervening, but the press the main players, interviewing both sides as they step away from their flower placing/stomping duties.  The latest stomper said his son became addicted after being sold drugs by a/the traveller community.  Whole thing is weird, sad, gruesome - all in one state of Britain package.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I have to tell you that the tributes have been torn down a fourth time. President Trump may have to intervene.



Drones over Hither Green


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The war of the roses.


Flower war - Wikipedia


----------



## T & P (Apr 11, 2018)

*buys Interflora shares*


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

T & P said:


> *buys Interflora shares*


Pop Up business opportunity on site, selling flowers and - for the stomper with arthritis - pre stomped flowers to fling away in disgust. All to the sound of clicking shutters. Chris Morris shakes his head and says it's all too farfetched for a Brasseye Special.


----------



## alan_ (Apr 11, 2018)

To the tune of the Hokey Cokey

You put the flowers up
They take the flowers down
Up down up down chuck them on the ground
Then terrorise the neighbours driving round and round
Thats what it's all about
Oooh flowery confrontation
Oooh teddy bear situation
Oooh balloon and scissor deflation
Up down round and round, you couldn't make it up


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

alan_ said:


> To the tune of the Hokey Cokey
> 
> You put the flowers up
> They take the flowers down
> ...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

To add to the surreal nature feel of all this, I've just noticed that events are taking place in 'South Park Crescent'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

alan_ said:


> To the tune of the Hokey Cokey
> 
> You put the flowers up
> They take the flowers down
> ...



Knees bent, arms stretched, rah, rah, rah!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Finally, we are going to get some official involvement in this standoff! So far the police have kept an eye on things powerless to intervene. But now things have got to change:



> Lewisham resident Ian Gordon today turned up to rip down the flowers, cards and balloons in South Park Crescent, Hither Green, kicked them down the street and later threw them in a passing bin lorry.



Lewisham Council are locked and loaded - _this isn't a green waste collection week_!


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Lewisham Council are locked and loaded - _this isn't a green waste collection week_!


He probably didn't properly sort the waste into recyclable and non-recyclable piles, some people are thoughtless like that.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> He probably didn't properly sort the waste into recyclable and non-recyclable piles, some people are thoughtless like that.


That's true. In my experience, vigilates are very rarely up on recycling protocols. For example when Charles Bronson and Liam Neeson have a  get together they often hurl any leftover Potnoodle in with the non-food waste.


----------



## T & P (Apr 11, 2018)

The media are fucking loving this circus aren’t they.... (see video)
Hither Green standoff continues as tributes to intruder removed again


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

alan_ said:


> To the tune of the Hokey Cokey
> 
> You put the flowers up
> They take the flowers down
> ...


I've just heard from a well place source, so I'm reliant on your discretion here, that William and Kate have got this on the shortlist for their new national anthem.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

T & P said:


> The media are fucking loving this circus aren’t they.... (see video)
> Hither Green standoff continues as tributes to intruder removed again


_'I'm sorry lovely, we got the flowers hitting the wall and the petal scatter was great, but your snarl wasn't quite right. Can we go again?'_


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 11, 2018)

It's war

Hither Green standoff continues as tributes to intruder removed again

(Link is Graun not DM fwiw )


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

T & P said:


> The media are fucking loving this circus aren’t they.... (see video)
> Hither Green standoff continues as tributes to intruder removed again


Ring! Ring!

'Oh, Hi Editor, what can I do for you? Just about to catch the plane to Damascus'.
- We need you back here, get your ass over to Hither Green!


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 11, 2018)

It's pretty much the perfect storm of suburban criminal drama for the DM


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> It's pretty much the perfect storm of suburban criminal drama for the DM


'Menacing children's teddies and Lewisham Labour Council: the Corbyn link'.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 11, 2018)

We can be only a short step away from media-incited violence tbh. Hopefully it doesn't happen. This case has really shown the DM at their toxic insidious worst. Depressing.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 11, 2018)

someone should install a live web cam of the fence so the rest of the world can watch this spectacle


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> We can be only a short step away from media-incited violence tbh. Hopefully it doesn't happen. This case has really shown the DM at their toxic insidious worst. Depressing.


I've managed to avoid direct links to the DM till now, but in the latest development a burglar alarm company has decided to blitz the street with salesmen:
Fire brigade fit four smoke alarms at home of pensioner who killed burglar | Daily Mail Online
Fold Devils and Moral Twats. Christ.


----------



## T & P (Apr 11, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> someone should install a live web cam of the fence so the rest of the world can watch this spectacle


We're closer to WWIII today than at any other time since the end of the Cold War, so it is good stories like these are keeping developments in Syria off the front pages and out of people's minds.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 11, 2018)

it is fuckin nuts isn't it.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Predict the next headline:

'Conor McGregor given community service on condition he trains up the residents of Hither Green to combat the teddy wielding menace'


----------



## andysays (Apr 11, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> It's war
> 
> Hither Green standoff continues as tributes to intruder removed again
> 
> (Link is Graun not DM fwiw )



And the inevitable Guardian angle


> The family, who have identified themselves as Gypsies, said they were being treated differently because of their backgrounds...



Some of the media coverage has mentioned/emphasised the traveller/gypsy aspect, but from what I've seen, it was the Vincent family who first brought this up as if they felt it was somehow significant


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I've managed to avoid direct links to the DM till now, but in the latest development a burglar alarm company has decided to blitz the street with salesmen:
> Fire brigade fit four smoke alarms at home of pensioner who killed burglar | Daily Mail Online
> Fold Devils and Moral Twats. Christ.



The 'battle of the bouquets'.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

What gets me is these people ripping the flowers down, letting themselves be photographed and named in the press, surely inviting trouble?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> What gets me is these people ripping the flowers down, letting themselves be photographed and named in the press, surely inviting trouble?


The bloke who ripped them down in phase 2 is, _literally_, a florist. He has a strange business model where he simultaneously increases repurchase demand for his products whilst encouraging a boycott of his shop.


----------



## T & P (Apr 11, 2018)

I'm disappointed Terry Pratchett has somehow managed to come back from the dead and instead of writing a new novel he chooses to spend his bonus time on Earth ripping bouquets of flowers from fences


----------



## bemused (Apr 11, 2018)

Is there some sort of fancy dress competition between these flower-pull-a-downers?

This guy gets extra marks for wearing a hi-viz vest - safety first.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 11, 2018)

I won't be fully happy till someone starts a bonfire with all the tribute flowers.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I won't be fully happy till someone starts a bonfire with all the tribute flowers.


((((Britain's Shrine Immolation Related Carbon Footprint))))


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 11, 2018)

Its OK burning flowers is carbon neutral.  Teddy Bears less so.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

T & P said:


> I'm disappointed Terry Pratchett has somehow managed to come back from the dead and instead of writing a new novel he chooses to spend his bonus time on Earth ripping bouquets of flowers from fences


Looks like he's angrily waving a flag made up of the shirts of Sunderland, Nottingham Forrest, Leeds and Chelsea. The sort of thing John Terry has to hand if he's called upon to collect a trophy in any of the 4 Divisions.


----------



## editor (Apr 11, 2018)

I passed a newsstand and sighed when I saw the tabloids' GYPSY! angle.


----------



## alan_ (Apr 11, 2018)

editor said:


> I passed a newsstand and sighed when I saw the tabloids' GYPSY! angle.


Some of the headlines are very obtuse, but  the situation is now acute


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> What gets me is these people ripping the flowers down, letting themselves be photographed and named in the press, surely inviting trouble?


 From whom? Police don't care and the grieving family are hardly likely to track them down.
 I have no idea if its a genuine mark of respect  by a family not understanding how others feel or an intimidation technique.
And now neither side can give in.Very sad or Lol worthy depending how horrible a person you are.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

Police 'threaten to arrest anyone removing Henry Vincent's flowers' | Metro News


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Police 'threaten to arrest anyone removing Henry Vincent's flowers' | Metro News



That will go down well.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> That will go down well.



Yes was thinking the same.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> That will go down well.



Mails take on it.... 

Fire brigade fit four smoke alarms at home of pensioner who killed burglar | Daily Mail Online


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Mails take on it....
> 
> Fire brigade fit four smoke alarms at home of pensioner who killed burglar | Daily Mail Online





> Now police officers are believed to be closely watching the memorial and have *told neighbours to make no attempt to remove the flowers, threatening to arrest them for 'breaching the peace'.*
> 
> A Metropolitan Police source told MailOnline that officers had a responsibility to provide 'assurances to local residents' while also 'respecting the wishes of family and friends to mark the loss of a loved one'.



Rearrange these words - face, arse, about.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Police 'threaten to arrest anyone removing Henry Vincent's flowers' | Metro News


I suspect they are going to be on very dodgy ground if they do, what happens if they end up arresting the owner of the fence or one of his relatives?
The police obviously want to cool the situation down before things do get out of hand and since no-one is prepared to listen to reason, they've decided to try being heavy handed, methinks this will backfire.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I suspect they are going to be on very dodgy ground if they do, what happens if they end up arresting the owner of the fence or one of his relatives?
> The police obviously want to cool the situation down before things do get out of hand and since no-one is prepared to listen to reason, they've decided to try being heavy handed, methinks this will backfire.



They probably think the puller downers will be easier to threaten with arrest than the putter uppers.

 Can't see this cooling things down though.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

Looks like the cops thinks it'll be easier to threaten 'joe public' than 'Vincent's lot', the fuckwits.

ETA: As per moochedit's post above.

Problem is, they'll be taking on not just the taker-downs, but the views of the general public, the the likes of the Mail, etc.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 11, 2018)

Jesus, either the pensioner's inside his house, probably afraid to leave, hearing and seeing the shouts and scuffles and bloody police horses, or he hasn't been able to go home. Maybe there should be a gofundme (set up by someone who knows them) to send them on a nice holiday or something just to get to somewhere safe.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Jesus, either the pensioner's inside his house, probably afraid to leave, hearing and seeing the shouts and scuffles and bloody police horses, or he hasn't been able to go home. Maybe there should be a gofundme (set up by someone who knows them) to send them on a nice holiday or something just to get to somewhere safe.


If you mean the man that stabbed the burgler then i believe he is already elsewhere for safety. The man whose fence the flowers are going on is in his house as far as i know from reports i have seen.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Jesus, either the pensioner's inside his house, probably afraid to leave, hearing and seeing the shouts and scuffles and bloody police horses, or he hasn't been able to go home. Maybe there should be a gofundme (set up by someone who knows them) to send them on a nice holiday or something just to get to somewhere safe.



He & his wife are under police protection at a safe house. Over £8k has already been raised online for them. 

Their home has been boarded-up with metal grills, both CCTV & fire alarms have been installed by the authorities, who are taking the risk of revenge attacks very seriously.

It's all a bloody mess, made worst by the fuckwits & their flowers.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Rearrange these words - face, arse, about.



They are being tied to a fence that is private property. As that owner I would happily snip the ties from inside the fence.

Fucking idiot plod.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> They are being tied to a fence that is private property. As that owner I would happily snip the ties from inside the fence.
> 
> Fucking idiot plod.



Earlier reports said one guy had got permission from the owner of the fence before taking them down.

It looks like the cops are spooked by the Vincent lot, the twats.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 11, 2018)

Ah, wasn't sure what his situation was. I'm not sure that's much better than being at home even with all this going on.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Ah, wasn't sure what his situation was. I'm not sure that's much better than being at home even with all this going on.



He and his wife are certainly better away from the whole mess unfolding in front of their house but it's horrible, they shouldn't have had to leave home.

The family of the deceased, however upset are out of order putting those flowers up there, he didn't die there opposite the house. Plod should be stopping them not threatening others for objecting and removing them.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Ah, wasn't sure what his situation was. I'm not sure that's much better than being at home even with all this going on.



You are joking, surely?

If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near that bloody house! Ever!


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Ah, wasn't sure what his situation was. I'm not sure that's much better than being at home even with all this going on.



I believe the flowers are not going on the house of the man that stabbed him. The fence is on the house opersite his house.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

It's the Vincent lot that are causing a 'breach of the peace', the cops need to grow a pair.


----------



## sealion (Apr 11, 2018)

A relative of Vincent was on the radio earlier saying that the people taking down the flowers are scum and should be nicked for theft


----------



## scifisam (Apr 11, 2018)

The reason I'm thinking that being at home wouldn't be much worse is that then they wouldn't have lost their home and all that's familiar, and for his wife, if she does have dementia, changing location is likely to be very stressful. At some point they'll have to either go back, sell up, if they own, for less than the house was worth before this, or get moved by the council to somewhere probably not as nice, and I'd hate the thought of moving house at the age of 78 with a wife with dementia. Poor fuckers. 



moochedit said:


> I believe the flowers are not going on the house of the man that stabbed him. The fence is on the house opersite his house.



Doesn't make much difference really.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

sealion said:


> A relative of Vincent was on the radio earlier saying that the people taking down the flowers are scum and should be nicked for theft



They are serious fuckwits & seriously taking the piss.

My position of being uncomfortable with 'he deserved it' is changing, fuck the lot of them.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> The reason I'm thinking that being at home wouldn't be much worse is that then they wouldn't have lost their home and all that's familiar, and for his wife, if she does have dementia, changing location is likely to be very stressful.



She doesn't have dementia, her condition is arthritis.


----------



## sealion (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> They are serious fuckwits & seriously taking the piss.


I understand that emotions are running high, but the fucking irony in her comment is laughable.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> She doesn't have dementia, her condition is arthritis.



You sure? I thought i read she had dementia. Maybe early reports got it wrong though.


----------



## agricola (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's the Vincent lot that are causing a 'breach of the peace', the cops need to grow a pair.



How is leaving flowers on a fence breaching the peace?  It isn't even clear its a message of intimidation - ie: "we know where you live" - because the media has seen fit to tell everyone where the poor bloke lives, what he looks like, what his name and age is and almost certainly will tell us when he is back home.

The shrine is daft, but this circus of people putting it up and then taking it down - and in order to get on TV / in the papers - is positively dangerous.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

moochedit said:


> You sure? I thought i read she had dementia. Maybe early reports got it wrong though.



Early reports got it wrong, recent reports have stated arthritis.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> It isn't even clear its a message of intimidation - ie: "we know where you live" - because the media has seen fit to tell everyone where the poor bloke lives, what he looks like, what his name and age is and almost certainly will tell us when he is back home.



Given that HV didn't die opposite the house I think that plod could absolutely see it as a provocation and intimidation and warn the family off. They haven't though.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> How is leaving flowers on a fence breaching the peace?  It isn't even clear its a message of intimidation - ie: "we know where you live" - because the media has seen fit to tell everyone where the poor bloke lives, what he looks like, what his name and age is and almost certainly will tell us when he is back home.
> 
> The shrine is daft, but this circus of people putting it up and then taking it down - and in order to get on TV / in the papers - *is positively dangerous.*



You answered your own question, at the end of your post with the BIB.

Their behaviour is likely to result in a breach of peace, because it's causing serious unrest in the community.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Looks like the cops thinks it'll be easier to threaten 'joe public' than 'Vincent's lot', the fuckwits.
> 
> ETA: As per moochedit's post above.
> 
> Problem is, they'll be taking on not just the taker-downs, but the views of the general public, the the likes of the Mail, etc.


with this logic we should bring back public hanging
you for that?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> with this logic we should bring back public hanging
> you for that?



WTF? 

You are a serious fuckwit.


----------



## RubyBlue (Apr 11, 2018)

editor said:


> I passed a newsstand and sighed when I saw the tabloids' GYPSY! angle.



The papers didn’t originally run with this it became apparent when the family themselves declared they where ‘Gypsies’ and therefore being victimised ~ forgetting that their son \ uncle \ brother etc victimised a much more vulnerable group.


----------



## agricola (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You answered your own question, at the end of your post with the BIB.
> 
> Their behaviour is likely to result in a breach of peace, because it's causing serious unrest in the community.



No it isnt - for a start, what they are doing is leaving flowers and cards; it isn't like they are leaving banners calling for revenge or insulting the bloke / people on the street and leaving shrines to the dead has become a sadly commonplace thing nowadays whether people have been killed in RTAs, murders or whatever.  You might make the point that this is some form of intimidation, but the bloke isn't there and the message that the intimidation is sending out ("we know where you live") is as I said rendered a bit moot by the fact that the papers have told everyone in the country and on the internet where the bloke lives.  

Then you come to the biggest problem of all - that, if a breach of the peace does exist, its coming from the people reacting to it more than the people putting it up.  This wouldn't be a problem so much if what was being put up was clearly provocative, but it isn't (at least as far as the published stuff has shown).

I am not saying the shrine should be there, but arguing that the cops should do everyone for breach of the peace - which isn't an offence anyway and which only allows the people involved to be arrested and put before a court anyway - is just wrong.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

RubyBlue said:


> The papers didn’t originally run with this it became apparent when the family themselves declared they where ‘Gypsies’ and therefore being victimised ~ forgetting that their son \ uncle \ brother etc victimised a much more vulnerable group.



At  least one online supporter of the vincents (i don't know if it was a family member) made rascist comments about one of the taker downers.

Vigilante who tore down shrine to burglar reacts to racist abuse


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> WTF?
> 
> You are a serious fuckwit.


if the views of the general public and the daily mail should be taken as some kind of guidance for applying laws then by that logic hanging should "be brought back" as that's what they'd want

why do you add a smiley after calling me a "serious fuckwit"??


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> if the views of the general public and the daily mail should be taken as some kind of guidance for applying laws then by that logic hanging should "be brought back" as that's what they'd want


Whaaaaaaaaat?


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> if the views of the general public and the daily mail should be taken as some kind of guidance for applying laws then by that logic hanging should "be brought back" as that's what they'd want
> 
> why do you add a smiley after calling me a "serious fuckwit"??



To demonstrate amusement


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> No it isnt - for a start, what they are doing is leaving flowers and cards; it isn't like they are leaving banners calling for revenge or insulting the bloke / people on the street and leaving shrines to the dead has become a sadly commonplace thing nowadays whether people have been killed in RTAs, murders or whatever.  You might make the point that this is some form of intimidation, but the bloke isn't there and the message that the intimidation is sending out ("we know where you live") is as I said rendered a bit moot by the fact that the papers have told everyone in the country and on the internet where the bloke lives.
> 
> Then you come to the biggest problem of all - that, if a breach of the peace does exist, its coming from the people reacting to it more than the people putting it up.  This wouldn't be a problem so much if what was being put up was clearly provocative, but it isn't (at least as far as the published stuff has shown).
> 
> I am not saying the shrine should be there, but arguing that the cops should do everyone for breach of the peace - which isn't an offence anyway and which only allows the people involved to be arrested and put before a court anyway - is just wrong.



The situation is at boiling point, the police have every right to arrest those putting up the flowers, because they are provoking the community to react.



> In England and Wales, constables (or other persons) are permitted to arrest a person to "prevent a further breach of the peace" which allows for the police or the public to arrest a person before a breach of the peace has occurred. This is permitted when it is reasonable to believe should the person remain, that they would continue with their course of conduct and that a Breach of the Peace would occur.[8]



Pop them in a cell overnight, and up before the bench in morning, sorted.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

how are they breaching the peace by putting up flowers?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> if the views of the general public and the daily mail should be taken as some kind of guidance for applying laws then by that logic hanging should "be brought back" as that's what they'd want
> 
> why do you add a smiley after calling me a "serious fuckwit"??



You made yourself look a right dickhead on this thread a couple of days ago, why are you going down the same rabbit hole again?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> how are they breaching the peace by putting up flowers?



Two people burgle the home of your parents. One of them at least is armed and menaces your father...Your dad fights back and one of them dies a street away as he is fleeing. The family of the deceased decide to put flowers up opposite to your parent's home.

Your parents have to leave their home, are getting death threats and a media circus is unfolding outside their home primarily fueled by the family of the deceased choosing to situate their shrine opposite your parent's home, not where their relative died.

You okay with that? Am I some kind of death penalty hungry freak because I am not okay with that?


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You made yourself look a right dickhead on this thread a couple of days ago, why are you going down the same rabbit hole again?


did i now? did the poster think that? I do believe you saw and liked my apology so you can fuck off ( )


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> did i now? did the poster think that? I do believe you saw and liked my apology so you can fuck off ( )


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Two people burgle the home of your parents. One of them at least is armed and menaces your father...Your dad fights back and one of them dies a street away as he is fleeing. The family of the deceased decide to put flowers up opposite to your parents home.
> 
> Your parents have to leave their home, are getting death threats and a media circus is unfolding outside their home primarily fueled by the family of the deceased choosing to situate their shrine opposite your parents home, not where their relative died.
> 
> You okay with that? Am I some kind of death penalty hungry freak because I am not okay with that?


i'm not disputing any of that i'm simply taking issue with people appearing to insist that "overwhelming public opinion" on such an emotionally charged event should guide what should and shouldn't be done in law
imo we'd be in a right fucking state if those views had to be pandered to
that ok?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> did i now? did the poster think that? I do believe you saw and liked my apology so you can fuck off ( )



You made a dick of yourself, you finally apologised for making a dick of yourself, I liked your apology.

You know what, I can't be arsed with you - congratulations for being the only poster moron on my ignore list.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

awww poor clapham boy


----------



## agricola (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The situation is at boiling point, the police have every right to arrest those putting up the flowers, because they are provoking the community to react.



Is the community being provoked to react, though?   All the people tearing the shrine down don't seem to be from the street or even the immediate neighbourhood, and increasingly it seems they are doing it to get in the papers.



cupid_stunt said:


> Pop them in a cell overnight, and up before the bench in morning, sorted.



... and then you have to explain to a magistrate how leaving flowers and cards on a street is breaching the peace.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Fwiw, I don't think from reading the 2 stories posted, the OB have threatened to arrest anybody, in fact they are desperate not to. It might come to that if one side or the other starts shoving/threatening/won't move off, but as of now it's the very last thing the met wants. If they or anybody sensible wanted a way out of it they'd be coming up with another nearby site to offer for the flowers, or failing that suggesting they could be put up for 24 hours and would then be removed.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

obviously agricola is putting it far better than me, what they said


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> i'm not disputing any of that i'm simply taking issue with people appearing to insist that "overwhelming public opinion" on such an emotionally charged event should guide what should and shouldn't be done in law
> imo we'd be in a right fucking state if these views had to be pandered to
> that ok?



I am not sure I understand you. Expecting the family of the deceased to at least not put that shrine up opposite of the house in which their relative illegally entered and attempted to rob/menace an old couple is pretty normal I think.

I have read differing public opinion.

I don't think hating nutjobs are being pandered to at all.

I think that most of us would look at this situation and think the family of the burglar aren't helping, and shouldn't be putting that shrine there. I am not saying he deserved to die of course. I am saying the people he violated should not have to suffer further but they are.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> No it isnt - for a start, what they are doing is leaving flowers and cards; it isn't like they are leaving banners calling for revenge or insulting the bloke / people on the street and leaving shrines to the dead has become a sadly commonplace thing nowadays whether people have been killed in RTAs, murders or whatever.  You might make the point that this is some form of intimidation, but the bloke isn't there and the message that the intimidation is sending out ("we know where you live") is as I said rendered a bit moot by the fact that the papers have told everyone in the country and on the internet where the bloke lives.
> 
> Then you come to the biggest problem of all - that, if a breach of the peace does exist, its coming from the people reacting to it more than the people putting it up.  This wouldn't be a problem so much if what was being put up was clearly provocative, but it isn't (at least as far as the published stuff has shown).
> 
> I am not saying the shrine should be there, but arguing that the cops should do everyone for breach of the peace - which isn't an offence anyway and which only allows the people involved to be arrested and put before a court anyway - is just wrong.


Yep, the way the flowers and messages has gone up has been pretty low key, from what I've seen entirely women sticking them up, not hanging around. No show of force, no big lads.  In as much as having anything like this in the same place as the event, it's actually been quite diplomatic.  And I say that having immense sympathy for the old bloke and his wife and a degree of contempt for the crimes the burglar and some of his family did.  

On the other side, those ripping them down have been pretty wound up, literally, playing to the cameras. However, I've got sympathy for 2 of them in turn. If the reporting is right, one of them was similarly accused of killing a burglar and the other claims to have had his son sold drugs by the traveller family (or just _travellers_ - a big difference).  There's nothing good in all of this, but the real cunts here are the mail and various photographers lined up wanting both sides to 'perform' their roles on cue.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Yep, the way the flowers and messages has gone up has been pretty low key, from what I've seen entirely women sticking them up, not hanging around. No show of force, no big lads.  In as much as having anything like this in the same place as the event, it's actually been quite diplomatic.  And I say that having immense sympathy for the old bloke and his wife and a degree of contempt for the crimes the burglar and some of his family did.
> 
> On the other side, those ripping them down have been pretty wound up, literally, playing to the cameras. However, I've got sympathy for 2 of them in turn. If the reporting is right, one of them was similarly accused of killing a burglar and the other claims to have had his son sold drugs by the traveller family (or just _travellers_ - a big difference).  There's nothing good in all of this, but the real cunts here are the mail and various photographers lined up wanting both sides to 'perform' their roles on cue.



From reports i have seen, the "cecil" who pulled down flowers used the name of a florist in manchester that killed a burgler but he is not the same person. Just used his name on the online video. He may be a relative of course.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> ... and then you have to explain to a magistrate how leaving flowers and cards on a street is breaching the peace.


 'Britain experienced a wave of arrests following the death of Princess Diana and the wanton attempts to lay flowers outside of Buckingham Palace...'


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

moochedit said:


> From reports i have seen, the "cecil" who pulled down flowers used the name of a florist in manchester that killed a burgler but he is not the same person. Just used his name on the online video. He may be a relative of course.


Ah, _I'm_ Spartacus!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Actually, thinking about it, 'Terry Pratchett tribute act arrested for deflowering a fence' would be the best headline _ever_.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Yep, the way the flowers and messages has gone up has been pretty low key, from what I've seen entirely women sticking them up, not hanging around. No show of force, no big lads.  In as much as having anything like this in the same place as the event, it's actually been quite diplomatic.  And I say that having immense sympathy for the old bloke and his wife and a degree of contempt for the crimes the burglar and some of his family did.
> 
> On the other side, those ripping them down have been pretty wound up, literally, playing to the cameras. However, I've got sympathy for 2 of them in turn. If the reporting is right, one of them was similarly accused of killing a burglar and the other claims to have had his son sold drugs by the traveller family (or just _travellers_ - a big difference).  There's nothing good in all of this, but the real cunts here are the mail and various photographers lined up wanting both sides to 'perform' their roles on cue.


this!!


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I am not sure I understand you. Expecting the family of the deceased to at least not put that shrine up opposite of the house in which their relative illegally entered and attempted to rob/menace an old couple is pretty normal I think.
> 
> I have read differing public opinion.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of this
basically what Wilf said and i'd add surely letting the family have a tribute for a bit keeps the peace and stops the vigilantes virtue signalling with their outrage and making a show of ripping down flowers

just imagine if this was the other way round, there'd be a moral panic


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> I agree with most of this
> basically what Wilf said and i'd add surely letting the family have a tribute for a bit keeps the peace and stops the vigilantes virtue signalling with their outrage and making a show of ripping down flowers
> 
> just imagine if this was the other way round, there'd be a moral panic


Why aren't the flowers being laid at the scene of the twat's death two streets away? That's what usually happens. It's intimidation. It's not a question of "we know where you live", it's one of "we've been outside your home" and "we've got an eye on you".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> I agree with most of this
> basically what Wilf said and i'd add surely letting the family have a tribute for a bit keeps the peace and stops the vigilantes virtue signalling with their outrage and making a show of ripping down flowers
> 
> just imagine if this was the other way round, there'd be a moral panic




Hmm...the problem is where the shrine is. The police could have stopped this shrine being put where it is. Police choose to hold lines and allow access to specific places all the time. They have failed here IMO by letting the family locate it there. It is a provocation IMO. I am not sure the people who are outraged are vigilante virtue signallers tbh. Though yeah, those people allowing the media circus to make them circus animals is proper sad.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> They are being tied to a fence that is private property. As that owner I would happily snip the ties from inside the fence.
> 
> Fucking idiot plod.


If I were the owner  I'd arrange to have the fence quietly removed, temporarily.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 11, 2018)

existentialist said:


> If I were the owner  I'd arrange to have the fence quietly removed, temporarily.



 Because what that homeowner really needs is to let everyone have full access to his garden.


----------



## JimW (Apr 11, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Because what that homeowner really needs is to let everyone have full access to his garden.


Save a few bob on flowers, at least.


----------



## mrs quoad (Apr 11, 2018)

alan_ said:


> Some of the headlines are very obtuse, but  the situation is now acute


Angles are watching over us all.


----------



## xenon (Apr 11, 2018)

If this happened on the street where I live, I think I would take the flowers off. Burgling scum in my neighbourhood no thank you very much.  Respect your community.


----------



## xenon (Apr 11, 2018)

What other way round by the way?  How does that even work? This wasn’t an RTA.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 11, 2018)

xenon said:


> What other way round by the way?  How does that even work? This wasn’t an RTA.


travellers removing floral tributes


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 11, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It’s the old u75 uber-lefty bollocks that this wanker was some kind of victim of society/capitalism because he was a working class robber. If he was black or Muslim or from another currently-in-favour minority they’d probably have a collection for the fucking slug’s family too.



yeh. I'll have to tell the old blokes at the mosque that they are trendy when arrogant Englishmen barely have the common decency to say hello and ask how they are.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> travellers removing floral tributes



Nope, that isn't a fair comparason at all.

It would be the family of a burglar who killed a homeowner he was attempting to rob removing the flowers left for said victim of a burglary.

If the family of the victim of the burglary went out of their way to put a shrine up outside the home of the burglar even though the death didn't happen there you'd be on to something.


----------



## xenon (Apr 11, 2018)

ddraig said:


> travellers removing floral tributes



 Why are you bringing travellers into it again? Besides,  still doesn’t work. If a Traveler was burgled and they defended themselves. I’d have just as much   Empathy for them and   Discussed at those  venerating the burglar. That’s just standard.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 11, 2018)

trendy indian buy to letters.


----------



## xenon (Apr 11, 2018)

In fact, the local community should rally round this guy  and his misses . This family from elsewhere coming in robbing one of theirs, the neighbour, fuck that shit. Look out for each other. That is the lesson to be learned here.  Don’t tolerate this intimidation this antisocial shit. There is your class solidarity.   Not going all Jerry Springer but seriously.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 11, 2018)

xenon said:


> In fact, the local community should rally round this guy  and his misses . This family from elsewhere coming in robbing one of theirs, the neighbour, fuck that shit. Look out for each other. That is the lesson to be learned here.  Don’t tolerate this intimidation this antisocial shit. There is your class solidarity.   Not going all Jerry Springer but seriously.



Yeh but make sure you're not an in favour minority first. otherwise you'll get accused of noncery as well.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 11, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Why aren't the flowers being laid at the scene of the twat's death two streets away? That's what usually happens. It's intimidation. It's not a question of "we know where you live", it's one of "we've been outside your home" and "we've got an eye on you".


In terms of that bit, I thought so as well when there were the first reports of the tributes being laid. But from what I've seen it's really not been like that. No threats, nobody staying for ages, no blokes at all (afaik, but don't hold me to that). The things left there have been just the same stuff you get when anybody has been killed/dies young. Equally, again afaik, the fact that kids teddies and tributes to a dad have been ripped off the fence and stamped on hasn't led to anything.  If there was some kind of attempt at inflicting psychological terror on the street that would have happened - but hasn't. I'm sure the pensioner and his family see it as intimidation - I would in his place - particularly as he will be traumatised himself. But in terms of intimidation, objectively, it's nothing like the genuine intimidation that really does happen to some people, in their homes in certain circumstances.

No doubt somewhere on facebook threats have been made, though to be honest I haven't heard about those either.


----------



## T & P (Apr 12, 2018)

Instead of arresting anyone or taking no act at all and risking a violent confrontation, the police should use some common sense and simply restrict access to the street temporarily to residents only (plus postmen, deliveries, etc). And get rid of all those press parasites as well. It would soon calm down and this unedifying spectacle would come to an end.


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

xenon said:


> In fact, the local community should rally round this guy  and his misses . This family from elsewhere coming in robbing one of theirs, the neighbour, fuck that shit. Look out for each other. That is the lesson to be learned here.  Don’t tolerate this intimidation this antisocial shit. There is your class solidarity.   Not going all Jerry Springer but seriously.



"this guy and his misses"
If the auld bugger had just had the decency roll over and let them get on with their redistribution of wealth efforts, then there wouldn't be such a long drawn out thread, and continuous much ado about nothing in the media
But he had a go, and didn't ''miss' 
Inconsiderate auld  bugger, now the council/plod will have their previous 'shortcomings' highlighted at every occasion.
Whereas if he had "missed" his murder and robbery would have just been another weary 2 line story on page 2 of whatever paper that even bothered to cover it.


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

mrs quoad said:


> Angles are watching over us all.



Quick, very quick


----------



## Humberto (Apr 12, 2018)

He meant mrs. obviously.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 12, 2018)

mrs quoad said:


> Angles are watching over us all.



This is right. That's my immediate reflex, anyway.


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

coley said:


> Quick, very quick





agricola said:


> How is leaving flowers on a fence breaching the peace?  It isn't even clear its a message of intimidation - ie: "we know where you live" - because the media has seen fit to tell everyone where the poor bloke lives, what he looks like, what his name and age is and almost certainly will tell us when he is back home.
> 
> The shrine is daft, but this circus of people putting it up and then taking it down - and in order to get on TV / in the papers - is positively dangerous.


You have a very good point, but "positively dangerous" ?...mebbes not the right adjectives? it's unnerving,and definitely worrying and I see where your coming from, but "dangerous" assumes an "imminent danger" where I see it as a slow cancerous rot, of everything that previously held communities together.


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> WTF?
> 
> You are a serious fuckwit.


To give him credit, he has always tried to live up to your 'description'


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

ddraig said:


> how are they breaching the peace by putting up flowers?



Because they are knowingly and deliberately sticking up two fingers to the general public.


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Actually, thinking about it, 'Terry Pratchett tribute act arrested for deflowering a fence' would be the best headline _ever_.



Terry Prachett would have gotten at least two books out of this, Guards, Guards, episodes 1,2,3 at least, Sam Vines was created for 'incidents' such as this.
As was Carrott-


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

ddraig said:


> I agree with most of this
> basically what Wilf said and i'd add surely letting the family have a tribute for a bit keeps the peace and stops the vigilantes virtue signalling with their outrage and making a show of ripping down flowers
> 
> just imagine if this was the other way round, there'd be a moral panic



If the pensioner had been killed and his neighbours had laid floral tributes...this would induce a "moral panic"
Explain...please do?


----------



## coley (Apr 12, 2018)

Humberto said:


> He meant mrs. obviously.



Obviously, but if this place isn't about a bit of light amusement alongside serious debate, what is its point?


----------



## extra dry (Apr 12, 2018)

Looby said:


> Jesus Christ, this thread is getting more and more Daily Mail by the minute.
> It just feels like an excuse for ‘chav’ bashing now. What’s next, single mothers? Have we covered travellers enough yet? Laughing at their fucking ugg boots etc Surely we’re better than this.
> 
> Yes he and some of his family have done awful things but there’s a lot of hateful stuff being said here that feels far bigger than being targeted at the bloke who actually burgled the house.



The bigger picture. A society that has rotteted from within, these people are a product of "Thatcher politics" the must have this or that at any cost mentallity/view, Greed, Deception, intimidation, threats towards elderly and vunrunable (sp). Including not just one burgulrary (I refuse to spell it correctly BTW) but many. So people are upset angry not just at what happened on that one night but the past 40 years or so. 
Just my 2 cents


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 12, 2018)

extra dry said:


> The bigger picture. A society that has rotteted from within, these people are a product of "Thatcher politics" the must have this or that at any cost mentallity/view, Greed, Deception, intimidation, threats towards elderly and vunrunable (sp). Including not just one burgulrary (I refuse to spell it correctly BTW) but many. So people are upset angry not just at what happened on that one night but the past 40 years or so.
> Just my 2 cents


Nah. Cunts (and families of cunts) like this have existed forever. In the town I grew up in the Hanbury’s and the Johnson’s had been making everyone else’s lives a misery since the 50s.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Nah. Cunts (and families of cunts) like this have existed forever. In the town I grew up in the Hanbury’s and the Johnson’s had been making everyone else’s lives a misery since the 50s.



The Johnsons, purveyors of misery


----------



## extra dry (Apr 12, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> The Johnsons, purveyors of misery


Thats the Mirror.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> 'Britain experienced a wave of arrests following the death of Princess Diana and the wanton attempts to lay flowers outside of Buckingham Palace...'



She died in Paris, the lazy bastards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2018)

extra dry said:


> The bigger picture. A society that has rotteted from within, these people are a product of "Thatcher politics" the must have this or that at any cost mentallity/view, Greed, Deception, intimidation, threats towards elderly and vunrunable (sp). Including not just one burgulrary (I refuse to spell it correctly BTW) but many. So people are upset angry not just at what happened on that one night but the past 40 years or so.
> Just my 2 cents


the auld underclass i suppose


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2018)

existentialist said:


> If I were the owner  I'd arrange to have the fence quietly removed, temporarily.


eamon holmes can get you a good deal on fence removal


----------



## likesfish (Apr 12, 2018)

this "clan" and hangers on should have it explained to them in small words they are a tiny minority and if they go down the revenge route they will be crushed


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2018)

likesfish said:


> this "clan" and hangers on should have it explained to them in small words they are a tiny minority and if they go down the revenge route they will be crushed


small words 4 point or small words short words?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> small words 4 point or small words short words?


Small words writ large.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'm afraid my new friends in the DM got there before you on that one.



Nope they were a good few hours later. 



> You might call it the ‘war of the roses’, except I have yet to see a rose.
> 
> ROBERT HARDMAN: Tempers boiling at this tawdry shrine to monster | Daily Mail Online


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Apr 12, 2018)

dylanredefined said:


> From whom? Police don't care and the grieving family are hardly likely to track them down.
> I have no idea if its a genuine mark of respect  by a family not understanding how others feel or an intimidation technique.
> And now neither side can give in.Very sad or Lol worthy depending how horrible a person you are.




I also wonder if those who are putting up the flowers are making sure they’re in the family’s good books, demonstrating their support for the clan as publicly as possible.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

extra dry said:


> The bigger picture. A society that has rotteted from within, these people are a product of "Thatcher politics" the must have this or that at any cost mentallity/view, Greed, Deception, intimidation, threats towards elderly and vunrunable (sp). Including not just one burgulrary (I refuse to spell it correctly BTW) but many. So people are upset angry not just at what happened on that one night but the past 40 years or so.
> Just my 2 cents


Well, there's a sort of parallel over things like the gas/electricity market, with companies knowingly targeting old and vulnerable people who have changed suppliers (doorstepping them till they change back). My partner's late Mam ended up changing suppliers about 5 times over about 18 months due to those cunts. The difference between legal and illegal predation is pretty minimal at times. Ditto things like internet advertising that targets people on the basis of, say, their searches around health concerns.  Doorstepping the elderly to change leccie suppliers is about an exact parallel with rogue builders who stand outside the house pointing out non-existent problems with the roof. And in terms of those in the electricity companies who authorise that strategy, well, there would be every bit as much poetic justice if they got stabbed as in this case.


----------



## extra dry (Apr 12, 2018)

There needs to be a change...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2018)

extra dry said:


> There needs to be a change...


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Well, there's a sort of parallel over things like the gas/electricity market, with companies knowingly targeting old and vulnerable people who have changed suppliers (doorstepping them till they change back). My partner's late Mam ended up changing suppliers about 5 times over about 18 months due to those cunts. The difference between legal and illegal predation is pretty minimal at times. Ditto things like internet advertising that targets people on the basis of, say, their searches around health concerns.  Doorstepping the elderly to change leccie suppliers is about an exact parallel with rogue builders who stand outside the house pointing out non-existent problems with the roof. And in terms of those in the electricity companies who authorise that strategy, well, there would be every bit as much poetic justice if they got stabbed as in this case.



Are you actually being serious or are you trolling? It’s hard to tell on here sometimes.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 12, 2018)

coley said:


> If the pensioner had been killed and his neighbours had laid floral tributes...this would induce a "moral panic"
> Explain...please do?


not what i meant, just meant if travellers had been removing a floral tribute
anyway, i'm clearly on the wrong side of "public opinion" and not putting my points across very well so will leave it to others who are


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Are you actually being serious or are you trolling? It’s hard to tell on here sometimes.


Not for one second (except maybe the stabbing bit). It's all predatory behaviour.

Edit: or if you want it spelled out, the pensioner burglary thing in this case started off with a discussion on the burglar and some of his family, that they identified weak and vulnerable victims. Lots of companies do that, in their door knocking, electronic campaigns and in lots of other ways. That's not excusing the burglar/his family's MO, it's condemning them both. Companies as bad as scammers and burglars, burglars as bad as companies. Take your pick.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Meanwhile... whilst cops defend the right of the family to leave tributes, they disappear again overnight. A certain newspaper must be kicking themselves that their photographer had gone for a kebab when the latest caped crusader did a flowerstomp.  Oh, and John Bishop has branded the Met a 'disgrace'.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Not for one second (except maybe the stabbing bit). It's all predatory behaviour.
> 
> Edit: or if you want it spelled out, the pensioner burglary thing in this case started off with a discussion on the burglar and some of his family, that they identified weak and vulnerable victims. Lots of companies do that, in their door knocking, electronic campaigns and in lots of other ways. That's not excusing the burglar/his family's MO, it's condemning them both. Companies as bad as scammers and burglars, burglars as bad as companies. Take your pick.



I can see a comparison regarding targeting the weak and vulnerable. Some big charities have been accused of this recently too.

However I really can’t see any reasonable comparison between changing electricity supplier or being asked to donate to the Red Cross, and being violently burgled, being walked to your own building society to withdraw 20k in cash to pay for a badly fixed roof tile, or being told the water board need to investigate a leak while the accomplice takes life savings from under the mattress.

It sounds like you’re not just comparing the fact of the targeting, but also the nature what is taken and how that is achieved. 

I have had two elderly relatives burgled by gangs specificallly targeting the vulnerable, one of them repeatedly. I can go into details if you like but I can assure you it is nothing like switching from Eon to edf.


----------



## bemused (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Meanwhile... whilst cops defend the right of the family to leave tributes, they disappear again overnight. A certain newspaper must be kicking themselves that their photographer had gone for a kebab when the latest caped crusader did a flowerstomp.  Oh, and John Bishop has branded the Met a 'disgrace'.



I don't think he defended them, he was pointing out the basic facts of the situation. 

This is what he actually said:


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Do people here support the right of the residents not to allow tributes on their street?

Not surprised the Met have said the tributes should be respected.

Whose streets? Our streets the lumpen proles’ and the police’s.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Not for one second (except maybe the stabbing bit). It's all predatory behaviour.
> 
> Edit: or if you want it spelled out, the pensioner burglary thing in this case started off with a discussion on the burglar and some of his family, that they identified weak and vulnerable victims. Lots of companies do that, in their door knocking, electronic campaigns and in lots of other ways. That's not excusing the burglar/his family's MO, it's condemning them both. Companies as bad as scammers and burglars, burglars as bad as companies. Take your pick.


What a load of bollocks.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> John Bishop has branded the Met a 'disgrace'.



This is a development.  Have we heard from Dec yet or Fearne Cotton?


----------



## agricola (Apr 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What a load of bollocks.



Not really - just look at all the adverts for those "over-fifties plans" that infest the commercial networks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2018)

parker pen just for ringing


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 12, 2018)

agricola said:


> Not really - just look at all the adverts for those "over-fifties plans" that infest the commercial networks.


Stannah stairlifts.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> I can see a comparison regarding targeting the weak and vulnerable. Some big charities have been accused of this recently too.
> 
> However I really can’t see any reasonable comparison between changing electricity supplier or being asked to donate to the Red Cross, and being violently burgled, being walked to your own building society to withdraw 20k in cash to pay for a badly fixed roof tile, or being told the water board need to investigate a leak while the accomplice takes life savings from under the mattress.
> 
> ...






> EXTRA DRY - The bigger picture. A society that has rotteted from within, these people are a product of "Thatcher politics" the must have this or that at any cost mentallity/view, Greed, Deception, intimidation, threats towards elderly and vunrunable (sp). Including not just one burgulrary (I refuse to spell it correctly BTW) but many. So people are upset angry not just at what happened on that one night but the past 40 years or so.
> Just my 2 cents
> Click to expand...





> WILF - Well, there's a sort of parallel over things like the gas/electricity market, with companies knowingly targeting old and vulnerable people who have changed suppliers (doorstepping them till they change back). My partner's late Mam ended up changing suppliers about 5 times over about 18 months due to those cunts. The difference between legal and illegal predation is pretty minimal at times. Ditto things like internet advertising that targets people on the basis of, say, their searches around health concerns. Doorstepping the elderly to change leccie suppliers is about an exact parallel with rogue builders who stand outside the house pointing out non-existent problems with the roof. And in terms of those in the electricity companies who authorise that strategy, well, there would be every bit as much poetic justice if they got stabbed as in this case.


If you read back, my post and the one I was responding to, you'll see I wasn't talking about the specific things done by the burglar and his family or other cases where extreme pressure/threat has been put on the vulnerable. I was responding to Extra Dry's idea of thinking about predation of the vulnerable in the context of 40 years of neo-liberalism.  Yes, obviously, I'd rather one of my relatives was scammed (multiple times as it happens) by a power supplier than someone physically threatening her. But that wasn't what I was on about - I was agreeing that there is a parallel in terms of targeting the vulnerable - online/in person, legally/illegally.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

bemused said:


> I don't think he defended them, he was pointing out the basic facts of the situation.
> 
> This is what he actually said:



I was just doing my (joke ) thing of what the DM are saying - and they are saying he did defend them.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Whose streets? Our streets the lumpen proles’ and the police’s.


fuck off.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> If you read back, my post and the one I was responding to, you'll see I wasn't talking about the specific things done by the burglar and his family or other cases where extreme pressure/threat has been put on the vulnerable. I was responding to Extra Dry's idea of thinking about predation of the vulnerable in the context of 40 years of neo-liberalism.  Yes, obviously, I'd rather one of my relatives was scammed (multiple times as it happens) by a power supplier than someone physically threatening her. But that wasn't what I was on about - I was agreeing that there is a parallel in terms of targeting the vulnerable - online/in person, legally/illegally.



Oh you were talking about neoliberalism. My mistake. I thought when you said the following you were talking about burglars:



Wilf said:


> Companies as bad as scammers and burglars, burglars as bad as companies. Take your pick.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Oh you were talking about neoliberalism. My mistake. I thought when you said the following you were talking about burglars:


Yes, in my exchange with extra dry I was talking about neo-liberalism, which was the point you piped up. Then, the bit you quote, I was comparing scammers, burglars and neo-liberal business practices. Anything else I can help you with? Oh and fuck off again for that lumpen proles comment.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Yes, in my exchange with extra dry I was talking about neo-liberalism, which was the point you piped up. Then, the bit you quote, I was comparing scammers, burglars and neo-liberal business practices. Anything else I can help you with? Oh and fuck off again for that lumpen proles comment.



Are you suggesting the burglars aren’t lumpen? Fine upstanding workers are they? 

Not much point in arguing with someone who places burglars on the same level as power companies though, but whatever.


----------



## gosub (Apr 12, 2018)

coley said:


> Because they are knowingly and deliberately sticking up two fingers to the general public.



Thats a bit much. He/they might be arseholes but grief is still grief (a thoroughly shitty experience) and one in my expreince personal hurt swamps giving a shit about the public


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Are you suggesting the burglars aren’t lumpen? Fine upstanding workers are they?
> 
> Not much point in arguing with someone who places burglars on the same level as power companies though, but whatever.


I'm making the point that the legality or illegality of an act is not always the key issue. But I agree on one thing, you are not worth arguing with.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 12, 2018)

bemused said:


> I don't think he defended them, he was pointing out the basic facts of the situation.
> 
> This is what he actually said:


The Plod in the interview is waffling like a boss, he knows that he is trying to defend a position that most people would find indefensible, I wonder if they drew straws and the loser got to go and be interviewed.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Meanwhile... my friends at the DM, having missed out on last night's flowerstomp#4 won't be making that mistake again and have a reporter on the scene running live updates - literally. For example, at 12:28 today, somebody said they could 'understand why the floral tributes had been cut down'.

When it comes to exploiting an old man's trauma and a family's grief, I think the DM are close to running the well dry now.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Ah, hang on! At 14:02 we had the first mention of _political correctness_. Right, that's it pack up the cameras, all the cards have been played here now.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Ah, hang on! At 14:02 we had the first mention of _political correctness_. Right, that's it pack up the cameras, all the cards have been played here now.


Nope not yet this is the Fail it needs to find a way to blame something on the EU and  migrants.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What a load of bollocks.



it's pretty advanced level whataboutery tbf - although in certain lighting conditions this can be quite easily mistaken for a load of sweaty great bollocks


----------



## patman post (Apr 12, 2018)

Though the local residents complained they were fed up with problems caused by travellers which, if the papers are correct, are the same group from which the dead man came and are threatening to make the pensioner’s life a misery...


----------



## bemused (Apr 12, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> The Plod in the interview is waffling like a boss, he knows that he is trying to defend a position that most people would find indefensible, I wonder if they drew straws and the loser got to go and be interviewed.



He's not trying to defend anything. Laying flowers on the road isn't illegal, I'd rather the police weren't encouraged to make up laws on the fly - which seems to be the ask here be the 'shouldn't be allowed' folks.

No one is breaking the law here, it is nothing to do with the police.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 12, 2018)

bemused said:


> He's not trying to defend anything. Laying flowers on the road isn't illegal, I'd rather the police weren't encouraged to make up laws on the fly - which seems to be the ask here be the 'shouldn't be allowed' folks.
> 
> No one is breaking the law here, it is nothing to do with the police.


The family aren't laying flowers on the road, they're attaching them to a fence which they don't own, this isn't a crime it's a civil matter for the owner of the fence if he so chooses, But it's not a crime to take them off and chuck them away and/or stamp all over them either but the Plod have apparently threatened to arrest people for that but not the attaching. 
The interviewer was trying to get the high ranking Plod in the video to come out and admit this but he was having none of it and was adroitly dodging giving a straight answer.
I have a fair amount of sympathy for the plod in this case, feelings are running high and the last thing they want to do is find themselves breaking up a brawl between the locals and the family but the Plod need to apply the law evenly not fudge the issue even if their intentions are good.


----------



## bemused (Apr 12, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> The family aren't laying flowers on the road, they're attaching them to a fence which they don't own, this isn't a crime it's a civil matter for the owner of the fence if he so chooses, But it's not a crime to take them off and chuck them away and/or stamp all over them either but the Plod have apparently threatened to arrest people for that but not the attaching.
> The interviewer was trying to get the high ranking Plod in the video to come out and admit this but he was having none of it and was adroitly dodging giving a straight answer.
> I have a fair amount of sympathy for the plod in this case, feelings are running high and the last thing they want to do is find themselves breaking up a brawl between the locals and the family but the Plod need to apply the law evenly not fudge the issue even if their intentions are good.



His answer was reasonable. The police said if you are going to or are breaching the peace they'll arrest you. The answer to the question 'if I pull the flowers down will I get arrested' can't be 'no'.

At this point, the guy isn't living there and we're witnessing a procession of weirdo looking halfwits creeping around pulling them off the fence for bragging rights at the pub.

If they wanted to do anything why wouldn't they put their own flowers up as a tribute to the guy who lived there? That would at least be witty.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

bemused said:


> we're witnessing a procession of weirdo looking halfwits creeping around pulling them off the fence for bragging rights at the pub.



If only some respectable looking people were to take the flowers off, then you’d be on their side?

The thing is Mr and Mrs average from number 64 won’t be taking them off because they’re scared of the repercussions.


----------



## bemused (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> If only some respectable looking people were to take the flowers off, then you’d be on their side?



I don't care if they pull them down or not, it's a circus.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

bemused said:


> I don't care if they pull them down or not, it's a circus.



Why are you labelling people “weirdo halfwit creeps” then? Do you know them personally or are you just going by the pics in the Daily Mail


----------



## Smangus (Apr 12, 2018)

People are entitled to grieve, no matter how "scummy" they may appear to others putting up flowers etc is part of this process . Ripping down flowers etc only reduces people to their (perceived)  level.


Still no sympathy for the perp though.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Smangus said:


> People are entitled to grieve, no matter how "scummy" they may appear to others putting up flowers etc is part of this process . Ripping down flowers etc only reduces people to their (perceived)  level.
> 
> 
> Still no sympathy for the perp though.


That sounds about right.


----------



## bemused (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Why are you labelling people “weirdo halfwit creeps” then? Do you know them personally or are you just going by the pics in the Daily Mail



100 urban points for mentioning the Daily Mail.


----------



## gosub (Apr 12, 2018)

bemused said:


> His answer was reasonable. The police said if you are going to or are breaching the peace they'll arrest you. The answer to the question 'if I pull the flowers down will I get arrested' can't be 'no'.
> 
> At this point, the guy isn't living there and we're witnessing a procession of weirdo looking halfwits creeping around pulling them off the fence for bragging rights at the pub.
> 
> If they wanted to do anything why wouldn't they put their own flowers up as a tribute to the guy who lived there? That would at least be witty.


If they wanted to do anything .....it would be to keep a discrete eye out once the old fella comes home.  Pulling flowers off is just agrivating the situation


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Smangus said:


> People are entitled to grieve, no matter how "scummy" they may appear to others putting up flowers etc is part of this process . Ripping down flowers etc only reduces people to their (perceived)  level.



Someone should tell them about the concept of funerals and graves


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## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Someone should tell them about the concept of funerals and graves


Do you dish this advice out whenever you see a roadside tribute, say an RTA or the victim of a shooting?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Do you dish this advice out whenever you see a roadside tribute, say an RTA or the victim of a shooting?



Not comparable.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Do you dish this advice out whenever you see a roadside tribute, say an RTA or the victim of a shooting?



I was responding to the statement that “people are entitled to grieve” by pointing out some established channels for doing so should the modern trend for roadside flower arrangements prove controversial in this instance. 

That the relatives keep restoring the removed items speaks volumes imo.


----------



## Smangus (Apr 12, 2018)

I imagine the body hasn't been released yet for funerals and those established channals etc. I'm sure they can put their emotions on hold until then though


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

Smangus said:


> I imagine the body hasn't been released yet for funerals and those established channals etc. I'm sure they can put their emotions on hold until then though



You imagine wrong, the body was released 2 days ago.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Smangus said:


> I imagine the body hasn't been released yet for funerals and those established channals etc. I'm sure they can put their emotions on hold until then though



Why do it in the community of the victim rather than in their own places?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> I was responding to the statement that “people are entitled to grieve” by pointing out some established channels for doing so should the modern trend for roadside flower arrangements prove controversial in this instance.
> 
> That the relatives keep restoring the removed items speaks volumes imo.


'Speaks volumes', what does it speak of?  And I'd guess they keep replacing them because they keep getting stamped upon. Fwiw, I've no interest in arresting the angry stampy people, but that's why the family keep coming back with more flowers.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Why do it in the community of the victim rather than in their own places?


Because that's what people do? Because they are angry? Because they are upset?

And if we need it, I'll clarify again, the fact that they will be angry is a natural, simple reaction to loss - no me saying the pensioner did anything wrong. Quite the opposite, he and his wife are clear victims and have had a horrible ordeal. And yes, they will also be upset that flowers appearing across from/near their house.  But that in itself doesn't mean the burglar's family won't have the normal, understandable reaction to a violent death.


----------



## Smangus (Apr 12, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You imagine wrong, the body was released 2 days ago.



ah well that's me told then


----------



## patman post (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Because that's what people do? Because they are angry? Because they are upset?
> 
> And if we need it, I'll clarify again, the fact that they will be angry is a natural, simple reaction to loss - no me saying the pensioner did anything wrong. Quite the opposite, he and his wife are clear victims and have had a horrible ordeal. And yes, they will also be upset that flowers appearing across from/near their house.  But that in itself doesn't mean the burglar's family won't have the normal, understandable reaction to a violent death.


Seems his family and friends also have the perceived normal reaction of travellers to entering other people’s property...


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 12, 2018)

Wilf Have to say your posts have resurrected this thread from the (not so) silent majority’s shitstorm of early on. I appreciate your points and the humour they’ve been made with. And it’s very telling that with nearly every post you make you have to qualify what you are saying with clarification that you are not supporting burglary or putting on a benefit concert for travellers ‘or the latest en vogue minority’ (which I thought was a particularly low point in this thread).

However, if I can make a break from my own “Sociology lecturers for burglars” stance...



Wilf said:


> But that in itself doesn't mean the burglar's family won't have the normal, understandable reaction to a violent death.



...I don’t agree that this is a normal, understandable reaction to a violent death. It appears to reek of intimidation and, in fact, a new low being dredged by the burglars family who seem prepared to use the death of one of their own for their own nefarious purposes. Which, if I’m right, is pretty low. And must confuse the hell out of Spymaster et al to see me saying it.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 12, 2018)

This is the actual legal definition of a modern breach of the peace.

‘_wherever harm is actually done or is likely to be done to a person or in his presence his property, or a person is in fear of being so harmed, through an assault, an affray, a riot, unlawful assembly or other disturbance_‘.

the Plod can take someone into custody and hold them until the peace is no longer threatened with breaching, the person can't be charged but can be held till all is quiet or dragged in front of the beak and ordered to behave (been there, done that, got the t-shirt, VERY LONG time ago but still) . If one of the angry foot stampy people, most of whom seem to be publicity seekers drawn to the area by the press like flies to a jam pot came up to one of the flower attachers and started harassing them whilst they were doing that then deffo breaching the peace, Standing patiently till the Vincent family have gone  or turning up 2 hours later. Don't think it's gonna fly and as I mentioned earlier what if the owner of the fence (who is also 78 if the Fail is believed) decides to take them down, are they going to arrest him? where will they be when someone puts a brick through his window?
Like I said loads of sympathy for Plod here who are in a no win situation and just want the hoorah to calm down, lots of contempt for the press who seem to delight in stirring crap up.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 12, 2018)

Can we blame the misplaced flowers on Margaret Thatcher too? If good old non-neoliberal Ted Heath had carried on as PM until the 90s instead, no doubt everyone on that street would now be inviting everyone else in for comradely cups of tea.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 12, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Can we blame the misplaced flowers on Margaret Thatcher too? If good old non-neoliberal Ted Heath had carried on as PM until the 90s instead, no doubt everyone on that street would now be inviting everyone else in for comradely cups of tea.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> ...I don’t agree that this is a normal, understandable reaction to a violent death. It appears to reek of intimidation and, in fact, a new low being dredged by the burglars family who seem prepared to use the death of one of their own for their own nefarious purposes. Which, if I’m right, is pretty low.



I think you have banged the nail right on the head there.

I am surprised by Wilf's stand on this, and if I were him, I would be worried that so many of my posts were being liked by the ddfuckwit.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 12, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Wilf And must confuse the hell out of Spymaster et al to see me saying it.


Not at all. You're not _always_ a tit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)




----------



## A380 (Apr 12, 2018)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 12, 2018)

Smangus said:


> People are entitled to grieve, no matter how "scummy" they may appear to others putting up flowers etc is part of this process . Ripping down flowers etc only reduces people to their (perceived)  level.
> 
> 
> Still no sympathy for the perp though.



People can have humility and shame also. Grieving doesn’t trump all other nuances ffs.

People aren’t ‘entitled’ to grieve whilst treading on toes. Entitled from whom or what?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

A380 said:


>


----------



## Smangus (Apr 12, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> People can have humility and shame also. Grieving doesn’t trump all other nuances ffs.
> 
> People aren’t ‘entitled’ to grieve whilst treading on toes. Entitled from whom or what?



entitled to go through the process of grieving , which is a different thing to each individual. not as in entitled middle class type of entitlement.


----------



## coley (Apr 13, 2018)

likesfish said:


> this "clan" and hangers on should have it explained to them in small words they are a tiny minority and if they go down the revenge route they will be crushed


Fair point, but once encouraged the 'political crusher' tends to get out of control, be careful of what you wish.


----------



## coley (Apr 13, 2018)

gosub said:


> Thats a bit much. He/they might be arseholes but grief is still grief (a thoroughly shitty experience) and one in my expreince personal hurt swamps giving a shit about the public



I've had more than my fair share of 'grief' in the last few years, but my 'personal hurt' funnily enough had the opposite effect, but 'horses for courses' 
 These  people (with the possible exception of his partner and children, if they were there) aren't 'grieving' they are making various points/threats.
I'm not even going to bother making the effort of collating these people into a distinct 'group' 
They existed, in every borderline WC community, where the previous strong community, bonded together by shared working conditions, borderline poverty, political affiliations, sporting/leisure activities always had minority's who were best described as 'work-shy
These communities barely tolerated them, I think most on here would recognise the term 'dole wallahs'
But these people, over the years, as traditional industries slowly collapsed, established a collective base of drugs/money laundering activities, scrap yards, skip wagons, etc.
And having always been in the communities mentioned, have now  emerged with a swagger to take revenge on the older community that always regarded them with distain.




'


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Wilf Have to say your posts have resurrected this thread from the (not so) silent majority’s shitstorm of early on. I appreciate your points and the humour they’ve been made with. And it’s very telling that with nearly every post you make you have to qualify what you are saying with clarification that you are not supporting burglary or putting on a benefit concert for travellers ‘or the latest en vogue minority’ (which I thought was a particularly low point in this thread).
> 
> However, if I can make a break from my own “Sociology lecturers for burglars” stance...
> 
> ...


Cheers. Liked, even if you are not exactly agreeing with me or I am agreeing with your last paragraph.  I'm in danger of lapsing into some pompous stuff as to what my 'strategy' has been on this thread - shoot me if I do.  Anyway, _my strategy_...

At one level I've just been trying to take the piss out of the mail, not only for the shitshow circus they have created over this, but more so the way they have tried to scoop up the genuine concerns of the locals, flowerstompers and the like.  Shitty, but run of the mill for the mail.  In terms of my thinking, the qualification bit is exactly at the heart of it. I think it's possible and necessary to say that getting burgled is horrible and that anything that targets the elderly and vulnerable is despicable. It's despicable generally and it's despicable in terms of Henry Vincent and those in his family who seem to have been doing that for years. Afaik, _everybody_ on this thread has actually said that. Also, for me personally, I'm not a liberal or trad lefty on crime.  Whilst much of crime probably has it's origins in structural issues, that doesn't help people who are the victims in the short term.  As an example, on another current thread I've taken the IWCA line in terms of communities responding to dealing in their midst. 

But to the point about the tributes and intimidation.  Initially, I agreed with posters who said this looks exactly like that, 'territory', we know where you live and all that.  But just watching it unfold (mainly via the mail ), it hasn't really looked like that.  No show of force by the family and friends, just 2 or 3 women bringing flowers and heartfelt tributes and then going away.  Again, qualifications, I've also said that if I was the old bloke, I'd see it as intimidation and I'd be freaked by the whole thing - having already been traumatised.  But that's it, there are at least 2 different realities and groups with their own perspectives here. Specifically, having sympathy with the house owner shouldn't leave you thinking the family have no right to grieve in public (and, to be honest, some people on this thread have got pretty close to that).

Again, qualifications: Vincent and some in his family are/were predators, full stop.  And in yesterday's spat, I said that put them in the company of other predators, legal and illegal. Okay, take issue with that if you want, but the point I'd ultimately make is that they are predators. It should be easy to say that - it is!  But there's no need to laugh at their clothes, to want their social housing or benefits withdrawn, to start going on about lumpens.  There really is no need to reach for the weapons of the judgemental right in any of this. [last sentence not aimed at you, obviously]


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> But just watching it unfold (mainly via the mail ), it hasn't really looked like that.  No show of force by the family and friends, just 2 or 3 women bringing flowers and heartfelt tributes and then going away.


You do realise that not everyone who's been leaving flowers will necessarily have been on the news clips or in the papers?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You do realise that not everyone who's been leaving flowers will necessarily have been on the news clips or in the papers?


The only photos I've seen of people leaving flowers, visiting the site have been 3 women - a couple of visits, perhaps one when locals were also there (can't swear to that). TV, mail and assorted photographers have been in situ just about continuously since the burglary. If there had been any kind of major confrontation with the locals, threats or shows of force, don't you think the mail would have the photos - would have been going berserk, leading calls for the introduction of birching etc?  As far as I can tell - and I certainly could have missed things - the 'battle of the bouquets' hasn't quite played out according to their expectations.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Cheers. Liked, even if you are not exactly agreeing with me or I am agreeing with your last paragraph.  I'm in danger of lapsing into some pompous stuff as to what my 'strategy' has been on this thread - shoot me if I do.  Anyway, _my strategy_...
> 
> At one level I've just been trying to take the piss out of the mail, not only for the shitshow circus they have created over this, but more so the way they have tried to scoop up the genuine concerns of the locals, flowerstompers and the like.  Shitty, but run of the mill for the mail.  In terms of my thinking, the qualification bit is exactly at the heart of it. I think it's possible and necessary to say that getting burgled is horrible and that anything that targets the elderly and vulnerable is despicable. It's despicable generally and it's despicable in terms of Henry Vincent and those in his family who seem to have been doing that for years. Afaik, _everybody_ on this thread has actually said that. Also, for me personally, I'm not a liberal or trad lefty on crime.  Whilst much of crime probably has it's origins in structural issues, that doesn't help people who are the victims in the short term.  As an example, on another current thread I've taken the IWCA line in terms of communities responding to dealing in their midst.
> 
> ...



If it was a mate of mine I’d be busy disowning the cunt as part of the grieving process. If it was a family member, perhaps that’s more tricky but I wouldn’t be making a public song and dance about it given the circumstances that led to their well deserved demise. Some people have no shame.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 13, 2018)

Its just the twisted sense of morality of it all.  His family clearly see him as not that bad a person because his crimes ranked below rape and murder.  He's just a bit of rough diamond, bit like that bloke from porridge - all a bit of a laugh.  He no doubt carried a swag bag and wore stripey clothes.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> If there had been any kind of major confrontation with the locals, threats or shows of force, don't you think the mail would have the photos - would have been going berserk, leading calls for the introduction of birching etc?


Well again, not everyone leaving flowers would necessarily been in confrontation with locals. The point is that plenty of people may have left flowers that haven't had their pictures taken or been filmed.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Well again, not everyone leaving flowers would necessarily been in confrontation with locals. The point is that plenty of people may have left flowers that haven't had their pictures taken or been filmed.


But the point I'm responding to is that the shrine thing was about _intimidation_. If it was a case of delivering flowers with non-confrontational messages (and let's be clear, the media read every last one of the cards), not making threats, not hanging around, not confronting the locals ... well, these flower leavers need to go back to Intimidation School.

I've said several pages back the location of the flowers might well have had a degree of intimidation, but the set of events that followed doesn't really look like that.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> But the point I'm responding to is that the shrine thing was about _intimidation_. If it was a case of delivering flowers with non-confrontational messages (and let's be clear, the media read every last one of the cards), not making threats, not hanging around, not confronting the locals ... well, these flower leavers need to go back to Intimidation School.
> 
> I've said several pages back the location of the flowers might well have had a degree of intimidation, but the set of events that followed doesn't really look like that.


There is, though, at the very least, an undertone of "we don't care about you, we'll do what we want" in their actions. Which, if you were feeling a little wobbly - eg if someone had just burgled your house - might feel very uncomfortable. As others have said, they don't seem to be remotely interested in the sensibilities of someone who has suddenly found himself with someone else's blood on his hands, and that doesn't say a lot for them, regardless of how close that blood is to the deceased's.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> There is, though, at the very least, an undertone of "we don't care about you, we'll do what we want" in their actions. Which, if you were feeling a little wobbly - eg if someone had just burgled your house - might feel very uncomfortable. As others have said, they don't seem to be remotely interested in the sensibilities of someone who has suddenly found himself with someone else's blood on his hands, and that doesn't say a lot for them, regardless of how close that blood is to the deceased's.


Again though, I've said all that on this thread, that there's an element of potential intimidation and even _presence_ with the tributes. It probably represents several things at once (the shrine), an element of we aren't going quietly, along with the normal rituals of grieving and marking someone from your own community.  Ritual/symbol wise, pretty low key in fact compared with, say, republican and loyalist volunteer funerals in Ireland, military funerals etc.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 13, 2018)

Has *Billy Jeeves* (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, come forward to join in the process of collective grieving?

Apparently, as previously menttioned, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.

Does anyone know why he has not yet come forward to lay bouquets of flowers opposite Mr Osborn-Brooks' home?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Has *Billy Jeeves* (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, come forward to join in the process of collective grieving?
> 
> Apparently, as previously menttioned, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.
> 
> Does anyone know why he has not yet come forward to lay bouquets of flowers opposite Mr Osborn-Brooks' home?


because he doesn't want to be nicked, perhaps


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> because he doesn't want to be nicked, perhaps


Maybe he has been there. Ugg boots and puffa jackets can hide a multitude of sins


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Maybe he has been there. Ugg boots and puffa jackets can hide a multitude of sins



Please fasten your seat-belts, the thread is about to take-off.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Please fasten your seat-belts, the thread is about to take-off.


And maybe a wig.


----------



## xenon (Apr 13, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Has *Billy Jeeves* (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, come forward to join in the process of collective grieving?
> 
> Apparently, as previously menttioned, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.
> 
> Does anyone know why he has not yet come forward to lay bouquets of flowers opposite Mr Osborn-Brooks' home?



 What is the point of this? Your continuing asking this  rhetorical question.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> And maybe a wig.



Please fasten your seat-belts and any wigs, the thread is about to take-off.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

xenon said:


> What is the point of this? Your continuing asking this  rhetorical question.


Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.


----------



## colacubes (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.



Yeah but GarveyLives basically only posts about murders/rapes/serious crimes and those who are wanted for them. Particularly in the Brixton/other South London threads. It’s actually weirdly and uncomfortably voyeuristic tbh as they insist on posting very graphic details about the crimes. I (and I think other) posters find it v weird.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 132757


I think that needs a little beard on it, really...


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

colacubes said:


> Yeah but GarveyLives basically only posts about murders/rapes/serious crimes and those who are wanted for them. Particularly in the Brixton/other South London threads. It’s actually weirdly and uncomfortably voyeuristic tbh as they insist on posting very graphic details about the crimes. I (and I think other) posters find it v weird.


Oh, I didn't know the background. Which explains a few things, because I was finding the relentlessness of the posts a little strange...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> If they're an established criminal family of any standing they'll have the police in pocket already.


Fuck me you talk some shite


----------



## xenon (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.



Totally tedious. That's the third maybe fourth time he's posted it. We all know the likely reason why Billy or whoever, hasn't come forward. Who is he aiming his questions at.



colacubes said:


> Yeah but GarveyLives basically only posts about murders/rapes/serious crimes and those who are wanted for them. Particularly in the Brixton/other South London threads. It’s actually weirdly and uncomfortably voyeuristic tbh as they insist on posting very graphic details about the crimes. I (and I think other) posters find it v weird.



And yeah, a bit this too. I've seen some of those posts.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Fuck me you talk some shite



You've only just noticed?


----------



## Celyn (Apr 13, 2018)

coley said:


> ...
> These communities barely tolerated them, I think most on here would recognise the term 'dole wallahs'
> But these people, over the years, as traditional industries slowly collapsed, established a collective base of drugs/money laundering activities, scrap yards, skip wagons, etc.
> And having always been in the communities mentioned, have now  emerged with a swagger to take revenge on the older community that always regarded them with distain.


Wait, this is about a bloke who invaded the home of an elderly couple probably with intent to steal. I have no idea whether he was also doing money laundering or stuff with scrap yards.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

bemused said:


> He's not trying to defend anything. Laying flowers on the road isn't illegal, I'd rather the police weren't encouraged to make up laws on the fly - which seems to be the ask here be the 'shouldn't be allowed' folks.
> 
> No one is breaking the law here, it is nothing to do with the police.


It's littering, and anyone removing the flowers should be commended.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Do you dish this advice out whenever you see a roadside tribute, say an RTA or the victim of a shooting?


Yeah, because the dead cunt was absolutely a victim here.

Fuck me, I'm surprised some people here aren't posting flowers on Nazi officers' graves, just to provoke the Daily Mail readers amongst us.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Have I really just spent an hour (yeah, I'm a slow reader) reading people people sticking up for these fucking scumbags?
I think some people need to have a fucking word with themself.
An old boy and his wife are terrorised by two pieces of absolute pond scum.
Old boy kills one pond scum.
Members of the U75 "I'm more politically correct than you" brigade uphold the right of the pond scum family to further harass the old boy.

Well done!


----------



## scifisam (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Have I really just spent an hour (yeah, I'm a slow reader) reading people people sticking up for these fucking scumbags?
> I think some people need to have a fucking word with themself.
> An old boy and his wife are terrorised by two pieces of absolute pond scum.
> Old boy kills one pond scum.
> ...



No, you've apparently spent an hour reading what you expected to read and ignoring what was on the screen.


----------



## coley (Apr 13, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Wait, this is about a bloke who invaded the home of an elderly couple probably with intent to steal. I have no idea whether he was also doing money laundering or stuff with scrap yards.



Lucky you, the less you know about people like him the better you will sleep.

"Probably with intent to steal"
The above gave me nearly as big a laugh as existentialist crack about "fatal, work elated injury"


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You've only just noticed?


No. I noticed it a long time ago but I couldn't hold it in any longer


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Have I really just spent an hour (yeah, I'm a slow reader) reading people people sticking up for these fucking scumbags?
> I think some people need to have a fucking word with themself.
> An old boy and his wife are terrorised by two pieces of absolute pond scum.
> Old boy kills one pond scum.
> ...


No. No you haven't. That's the thing isn't it, you haven't. 

Edit: ah, beaten to it by scifisam


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

scifisam said:


> No, you've apparently spent an hour reading what you expected to read and ignoring what was on the screen.


I read everything. Every single post, and responded to the parts I found disturbing.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> No. No you haven't. That's the thing isn't it, you haven't.


I've read it all, and what I took from it is that you'd rather defend the rights of fucking scum than the rights of their victims.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Yeah, because the dead cunt was absolutely a victim here.
> 
> Fuck me, I'm surprised some people here aren't posting flowers on Nazi officers' graves, just to provoke the Daily Mail readers amongst us.


Err, why would anyone do that?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I've read it all, and what I took from it is that you'd rather defend the rights of fucking scum than the rights of their victims.


Okay, I'll go back and edit all my posts to see if I can make them say what you want them to say. Astonishing.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Okay, I'll go back and edit all my posts to see if I can make them say what you want them to say. Astonishing.


Your posts will never say what I want them to say... thankfully.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Err, why would anyone do that?


Because some people seem to be apologists for scumbag cunts. Astonishing!


----------



## scifisam (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I read everything. Every single post, and responded to the parts I found disturbing.



You've responded to three posts, none of which were defending the burglar. You are simply deluding yourself.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

coley said:


> Lucky you, the less you know about people like him the better you will sleep.
> 
> "Probably with intent to steal"
> The above gave me nearly as big a laugh as existentialist crack about "fatal, work elated injury"


Always good to get some feedback


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

scifisam said:


> You've responded to three posts, none of which were defending the burglar. You are simply wrong.


No, I'm right. You're wrong.
What a ridiculous post!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Your posts will never say what I want them to say... thankfully.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> No, I'm right. You're wrong.
> What a ridiculous post!



I can't be arsed going in to more detail with such an obvious fucking moron. I mean, seriously, you're just making things up.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Won't someone please think of the poor families who will be affected by this dead cunt's inability to terrorise and steal from vulnerable pensioners!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

scifisam said:


> I can't be arsed going in to more detail with such an obvious fucking moron. I mean, seriously, you're just making things up.


Get fucked you absolute fucking wankstain! 
HTH


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

I can't believe how many wankers there are on this thread. Defending the rights of utter scum over the rights of the victims of the scum.
What a set of cunts!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I can't believe how many wankers there are on this thread. Defending the rights of utter scum over the rights of the victims of the scum.
> What a set of cunts!


Well, _I've_ been quite unpopular on this thread, I'm glad you helping to balance the scales.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

This thread has been a proper eye opener. I should probably have taken my chill pills before posting on it but fuck it, it needed saying.


----------



## coley (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I can't believe how many wankers there are on this thread. Defending the rights of utter scum over the rights of the victims of the scum.
> What a set of cunts!


Actually there aren't very many, Wilf for instance  is more concerned about the way the DM and other rags are trying to incite opinion.
A few years ago this thread would have been overwhelmed by people defending the scumbag, with detailed reports of his 'unhappy childhood and failures of the council and social services'


----------



## existentialist (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> This thread has been a proper eye opener. I should probably have taken my chill pills before posting on it but fuck it, it needed saying.


I always take my chill pills before posting on Urban.

Sometimes, I even give them time to kick in.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I always take my chill pills before posting on Urban.
> 
> Sometimes, I even give them time to kick in.


I go to my doc' once a month and ask him for my monthly top-up of U75 pills (Xanax).
I know it may seem like an exaggeration but I honestly do need Xanax before replying to threads like these. Unfortunately I didn't pre-empt the level of fuckwitism this thread could contain. Lesson learned!


----------



## coley (Apr 13, 2018)

dp


----------



## scifisam (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I go to my doc' once a month and ask him for my monthly top-up of U75 pills (Xanax).
> I know it may seem like an exaggeration but I honestly do need Xanax before replying to threads like these. Unfortunately I didn't pre-empt the level of fuckwitism this thread could contain. Lesson learned!



If you genuinely think that then you need to go back to your doc and ask for some different pills.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

scifisam said:


> If you genuinely think that then you need to go back to your doc and ask for some different pills.


Nah, I just need to skip posts by certain people.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Nah, I just need to skip posts by certain people.


Sorry, too late, I'm back. 

In your 1 hour, read every post thing, did you notice I'd called the burglar and those of his family who do similar things predators half a dozen times, ditto disgusting and despicable? Did you notice my post about agreeing with a lot that the IWCA have done?  Did you read what I said about the old bloke and his wife and how they must be feeling?

On the flowers thing, did you read my initial take on it that it did look like an aggressive act - subsequently modified (in light of it being carried out in a relatively diplomatic way) to that they do have the right to leave stuff, but that the oap will feel vulnerable and stressed. Did you see my suggestion that the OB or council might try and get agreement to place it somewhere else or limit it to 24 hours?  Does that add up to me saying anything like what you suggest?

As well as cunting off the mail on this and their breathless, cynical reporting, numerous posts by me add up to one thing: the burglar was a vile predator. But you can say that without giving it the fucking full Littlejohn in terms of taking benefits off people, ugg boots and wishing his family die of an OD.


----------



## keybored (Apr 13, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I always take my chill pills before posting on Urban.
> 
> Sometimes, I even give them time to kick in.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Sorry, too late, I'm back.
> 
> In your 1 hour, read every post thing, did you notice I'd called the burglar and those of his family who do similar things predators half a dozen times, ditto disgusting and despicable? Did you notice my post about agreeing with a lot that the IWCA have done?  Did you read what I said about the old bloke and his wife and how they must be feeling?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recap but as I stated earlier, I have already read it all.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Thanks for the recap but as I stated earlier, I have already read it all.


Having clarified that, I am forced to reach the tentative conclusion that you are a fucking idiot.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Having clarified that, I am forced to reach the tentative conclusion that you are a fucking idiot.


... actually, no, let's have one more go. 

As you read all those things, what did you think?  How did you reach your conclusions about my posts?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Nah, I just need to skip posts by certain people.


 just use ignore. I have three people or so ---lost count-- on ignore and if I ever bother to  de-ignore to see what I am missing 99% of the time realise I have missed little.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> ... actually, no, let's have one more go.
> 
> As you read all those things, what did you think?  How did you reach your conclusions about my posts?


I reached that conclusion based on your assertion that it was OK for scum to intimidate their victims.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I reached that conclusion based on your assertion that it was OK for scum to intimidate their victims.


Well, I've just had a word with my brain about this. Took him a bit to get back to me, he's a bit slow nowadays, but he denies it!  Got a bit tense when I insisted he must do as some bloke on the internet said 'you think it's okay for scum to intimidate their victims'. The cheek of my brain!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 14, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Well, I've just had a word with my brain about this. Took him a bit to get back to me, he's a bit slow nowadays, but he denies it!  Got a bit tense when I insisted he must do as some bloke on the internet said 'you think it's okay for scum to intimidate their victims'. The cheek of my brain!


Right, so it wasn't you who posted this?


Wilf said:


> Do you dish this advice out whenever you see a roadside tribute, say an RTA or the victim of a shooting?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 14, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Right, so it wasn't you who posted this?


Yep, that was me. Now I'm _guessing_ you are posting this to support your claim that:


> I reached that conclusion based on your assertion that it was OK for scum to intimidate their victims



If so well, I'm not sure what your point is, what the connection is. But anyway, the actual exchange was:

MRS D


> Someone should tell them about the concept of funerals and graves


ME


> Do you dish this advice out whenever you see a roadside tribute, say an RTA or the victim of a shooting?


So, I took Mrs D to be saying that the family of the burglar - we'll call him the predator or the cunt if that helps - should save the flowers and tributes for the grave/funeral. In response I was pointing out that tributes in streets are an entirely common thing. Fwiw, I find them a bit mawkish, but that's another thread. Anyway, my brain is about to shutdown for the night.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 14, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Yep, that was me. Now I'm _guessing_ you are posting this to support your claim that:
> 
> 
> If so well, I'm not sure what your point is, what the connection is. But anyway, the actual exchange was:
> ...


Yet it wasn't a tribute in the street where the cunt died, was it? It was a means of intimidating the victims.

But I do grin at how you liken a dead scumbag to the victim of an RTA or shooting. It's very telling.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 14, 2018)

Further marking of territory. Rather than a dignified burial of the perp this seems more akin to a march through an area:


Dead burglar to get '£100k funeral going past home of OAP who killed him'

The paper also reports that the pensioner is selling his house and moving away. No doubt to live in an areawhere no one knows who they are and where they know nobody. No doubt the lumpen cheerleaders of the perp will see this as a perverse form of justice. They’d be right to do so.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 14, 2018)

Lovely comments after that article


----------



## agricola (Apr 14, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Further marking of territory. Rather than a dignified burial of the perp this seems more akin to a march through an area:
> 
> Dead burglar to get '£100k funeral going past home of OAP who killed him'
> 
> The paper also reports that the pensioner is selling his house and moving away. No doubt to live in an areawhere no one knows who they are and where they know nobody. No doubt the lumpen cheerleaders of the perp will see this as a perverse form of justice. They’d be right to do so.



That is no doubt how the papers will report it; after all they couldn't exactly say how they'd publicized all of the relevant information about this poor bloke themselves, and picketed his front door.


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2018)

Should get a decent price for the house mind.  Not many houses can say they come with free fresh flowers delivered daily


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

I feel bad for laughing at that, but I admit I did. Horrible situation, but this notion of a mega-funeral right past the burglary victim's house is really not cool.


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 14, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Further marking of territory. Rather than a dignified burial of the perp this seems more akin to a march through an area:
> 
> 
> Dead burglar to get '£100k funeral going past home of OAP who killed him'
> ...





agricola said:


> That is no doubt how the papers will report it; after all they couldn't exactly say how they'd publicized all of the relevant information about this poor bloke themselves, and picketed his front door.





Celyn said:


> I feel bad for laughing at that, but I admit I did. Horrible situation, but this notion of a mega-funeral right past the burglary victim's house is really not cool.




You knuw what I can see happening now? This funeral cortege wending it's way past the house and locals kicking off. The burglars family and friends kick off in response and then the Daily Mail / Sun types can wank themselves off in a frenzy over it all. 

Fucks sake. This is all getting well tawdry now


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 14, 2018)

> Oh, I didn't know the background. Which explains a few things, because I was finding the relentlessness of the posts a little strange...









*The Late Henry Vincent was under investigation over a separate burglary involving an elderly victim at the time that he died following an incident that took place at 12.45 a.m. inside the property of a 78-year old man and his 74-year old wife*​



*Grieving Billy Jeeves, 28, is being sought by police following the burglary in Hither Green*​
... perhaps the 'relentlessness' which is now causing concern here is nowhere near disturbing as the 'relentlessness' with which we now know that the Late Mr Vincent, his friend and relative Mr Jeeves, and other grieiving members of his family are known to have been pursuing elderly and vulnerable members of the public for many years.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

I have sort of gained the impression that the people objecting to this attack-by-flowers might not all be local, and might indeed be driven by some other animus than sympathy for an old neighbour couple. If there are troublemakers haunting this street from family-of-dead-bloke and others-of dubious-connection-to-burgled-bloke with their own axe to grind, that looks very worrying and with big potential for trouble.  But even without any violence or stuff, you're damn right about the flowery thing being very tawdry (at best).


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

If a bit of flippancy is allowed, might I remark that "Grieving Billy Jeeves" should be the name of a blues musician, really.

Also, why is the mourning family not chasing Grieving Billy Jeeves for doing the Brave Sir Robin act rather than sticking by his mate and getting him medical attention?


----------



## marshall (Apr 14, 2018)

Oh, I'd imagine they'd like some very serious words with our Grieving Billy, if they haven't already done so...


----------



## existentialist (Apr 14, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> *The Late Henry Vincent was under investigation over a separate burglary involving an elderly victim at the time that he died following an incident that took place at 12.45 a.m. inside the property of a 78-year old man and his 74-year old wife*​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is, however, getting "relentlessly" boring. It is self-evidently the case that we, here on Urban, don't need to be relentlessly reminded either of the crimes, or the faces, of the perpetrators, and yet here you are, "ironically" quoting my own words about your behaviour as some kind of justification for continuing it.

Here, since you like gratuitous Internet images, have one just for you.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

Oh noes! existentialist, you damn fool!     Now we can have pages of all the military chaps discussing precisely what gun is shown in the illustration, whether it would be the best gun for the job, whether it would normally have been available to whomever ...


----------



## coley (Apr 14, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Further marking of territory. Rather than a dignified burial of the perp this seems more akin to a march through an area:
> 
> 
> Dead burglar to get '£100k funeral going past home of OAP who killed him'
> ...



TBF the whole article is speculation, he will probably be disposed of 'on the cheap' with a DWP funeral grant, which from personal experience, I suspect,   will probably be snaffled by the 'nearest and dearest'leaving the funeral home out of pocket.


----------



## coley (Apr 14, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> You knuw what I can see happening now? This funeral cortege wending it's way past the house and locals kicking off. The burglars family and friends kick off in response and then the Daily Mail / Sun types can wank themselves off in a frenzy over it all.
> 
> Fucks sake. This is all getting well tawdry now



Tony, you seem to have a passing knowledge of these folks (as do I, unfortunately) can you see. In  your wildest dreams,  his family and friends upping up,this kind of funeral with the entailed costs?
A two car cortège with a gang of horses and carts trailing along behind, at the very  best.


----------



## coley (Apr 14, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Oh noes! existentialist, you damn fool!     Now we can have pages of all the military chaps discussing precisely what gun is shown in the illustration, whether it would be the best gun for the job, whether it would normally have been available to whomever ...


Berrata? I believe, orrible bliddy shoes though.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

Ah! Now good people of Urban, I have noticed a possible and peaceable way to sort out this tiny localised wee bit of animosity. By song.

Persons come and insist on putting flowers wherever they want, regardless of feelings of neighbours.

So, you see, in my grand plan, persons would put up flowers. Other persons would pull down flowers. Flower-putting people would merely retaliate by singing "Where have all the flowers gone?"

Which, never mind if the singing is tuneful or not, would surely be quite non-violent and quite good.


----------



## coley (Apr 14, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> *The Late Henry Vincent was under investigation over a separate burglary involving an elderly victim at the time that he died following an incident that took place at 12.45 a.m. inside the property of a 78-year old man and his 74-year old wife*​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair point, it's going on all the time, a bunch of them were sent down up here a couple of years ago, but it's hard to chase them with so much police time being devoted to nailing the likes  of Cliff Richard and others who have actually died


----------



## tonysingh (Apr 14, 2018)

coley said:


> Tony, you seem to have a passing knowledge of these folks (as do I, unfortunately) can you see. In  your wildest dreams,  his family and friends upping up,this kind of funeral with the entailed costs?
> A two car cortège with a gang of horses and carts trailing along behind, at the very  best.



It wouldn't matter if the cortege was just two cars with some of that horse drawn bollocks. It wouldn't matter if they did the full Reggie Kray effort or just chucked the bloke on the back of a cortina and drove by, it'll still be grist to the mill, it'll still garuntee a showdown with locals. 

This sort of low level (but prolific) criminal family, they'll go for the most full on mawkish funeral possible. Ive seen my own family do it. It'll drag out their lot on the booze which is fair enough, we drink when we're mourning eh? It's just I can see that then fuelling a confrontation with locals and if they respond....well it's all going to kick off innit. 

I don't know if the old bill have the power to prevent the funeral cortege from taking this route. I hope they do because it ain't going to end well for anyone. Emotions have run too high now. 

You know what this reminds me of now, in a funny way? N.Ireland and parades, just without the history bit.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2018)

coley said:


> Tony, you seem to have a passing knowledge of these folks (as do I, unfortunately) can you see. In  your wildest dreams,  his family and friends upping up,this kind of funeral with the entailed costs?
> A two car cortège with a gang of horses and carts trailing along behind, at the very  best.



Yeah, it's all quoting "a source close to the family" and "it is believed that." Basically they've made it up to keep the story going.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> You knuw what I can see happening now? This funeral cortege wending it's way past the house and locals kicking off. The burglars family and friends kick off in response and then the Daily Mail / Sun types can wank themselves off in a frenzy over it all.
> 
> Fucks sake. This is all getting well tawdry now


Ah! I have a plan.  All the actual family that placed flowers. They can sing "Oh, where have all the flowers gone?"

In a very peaceful way.


----------



## coley (Apr 14, 2018)

tonysingh said:


> It wouldn't matter if the cortege was just two cars with some of that horse drawn bollocks. It wouldn't matter if they did the full Reggie Kray effort or just chucked the bloke on the back of a cortina and drove by, it'll still be grist to the mill, it'll still garuntee a showdown with locals.
> 
> This sort of low level (but prolific) criminal family, they'll go for the most full on mawkish funeral possible. Ive seen my own family do it. It'll drag out their lot on the booze which is fair enough, we drink when we're mourning eh? It's just I can see that then fuelling a confrontation with locals and if they respond....well it's all going to kick off innit.
> 
> ...



Let them have their cortège, the auld fella  and his wife are seemingly well away, a couple of funeral cars (or if the local FDs have any sense) a couple of auld bangers supplied by F&Fs and let the general public see the antics of these people.
For far to long they have gotten away with the type of low level crime that targets the WC and makes their life a misery.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 14, 2018)

coley said:


> Berrata? I believe, orrible bliddy shoes though.


Haha and and more more Ha!   I really was about to mention the shoes and the trousies, but I chose not to.


----------



## coley (Apr 14, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Ah! I have a plan.  All the actual family that placed flowers. They can sing "Oh, where have all the flowers gone?"
> 
> In a very peaceful way.



Where have all the flowers gone?(Vincent's lot)
In the bin, every...fucking .. one (locals)
When will you ever learn,  we'll fuck you up at every turn (Vincent's lot)
Tell that to your mate in the urn (locals)
...   over to you Urbs


----------



## existentialist (Apr 14, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Yeah, it's all quoting "a source close to the family" and "it is believed that." Basically they've made it up to keep the story going.


My guess is that it's the geezer who had the fisticuffs with yer man, who's now thoroughly enjoying his 15 minutes of fame and all the beers that go with it.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 15, 2018)

The family should be allowed to express their grief etc but they in turn need to appreciate the depth of revulsion and disgust (and fear) that locals will be feeling and just stay away now.

The funeral idea is insane and just makes the whole traveller community look bad, and if it goes ahead as stated it will kick off. Going tooled up to rob pensioners is about as low as you can get, and some people will be seriously steamed up and raging about it and go looking to batter the travellers.

Travellers will be drunk as fuck and ready to fight back. It's not going to end well.

It's an interesting situation. The tabloids have absolutely fueled and shaped it. The toxic mix of the various factors is pretty crazy, and Paul Dacre's wet dream:

Suburban home invasion
Travellers
Hero OAP
Righteous justice
Shit police
Flowers and sad cards from small children
Don't touch my fence
House prices
Gypsy funeral
Middle England v the criminal travellers

etc etc... Almost a perfect storm  Hopefully sense will prevail


----------



## scifisam (Apr 15, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> The family should be allowed to express their grief etc but they in turn need to appreciate the depth of revulsion and disgust (and fear) that locals will be feeling and just stay away now.
> 
> *The funeral idea is insane and just makes the whole traveller community look bad,* and if it goes ahead as stated it will kick off. Going tooled up to rob pensioners is about as low as you can get, and some people will be seriously steamed up and raging about it and go looking to batter the travellers.
> 
> ...



That's the idea (the bolded bit). The Mirror has made this up.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 15, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> It's an interesting situation. The tabloids have absolutely fueled and shaped it. The toxic mix of the various factors is pretty crazy, and Paul Dacre's wet dream:
> 
> Suburban home invasion
> Travellers
> ...


 I think it was Stompingman #3, the Terry Pratchett tribute act, who also said 'my dad didn't fight at Monte Casino only to get 2 bob a week pension' for this. There's your bonus ball.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2018)

scifisam said:


> That's the idea (the bolded bit). The Mirror has made this up.


Yes, this. £100,000 on a funeral is an insane amount. It just doesn't sound true. 10,000 is expensive but easy to rack up though. More believable/realistic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 15, 2018)

coley said:


> TBF the whole article is speculation, he will probably be disposed of 'on the cheap' with a DWP funeral grant, which from personal experience, I suspect,   will probably be snaffled by the 'nearest and dearest'leaving the funeral home out of pocket.



You are miles off the mark here bud.

Have a look at the ‘family’ and the wider mileu from which ‘the boy’ was from.

Have a look at the common rituals of the community.

There will be no DWP funeral (they may contribute to it however) but It’ll be a vibrant celebration of lumpen culture.


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are miles off the mark here bud.
> 
> Have a look at the ‘family’ and the wider mileu from which ‘the boy’ was from.
> 
> ...



You will have to give me some links, I'm making my 'assumptions'  from the local NE 'community'


----------



## Celyn (Apr 15, 2018)

coley said:


> Berrata? I believe, orrible bliddy shoes though.


Quite so


----------



## Celyn (Apr 15, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> The family should be allowed to express their grief etc but they in turn need to appreciate the depth of revulsion and disgust (and fear) that locals will be feeling and just stay away now.
> 
> The funeral idea is insane and just makes the whole traveller community look bad, and if it goes ahead as stated it will kick off. Going tooled up to rob pensioners is about as low as you can get, and some people will be seriously steamed up and raging about it and go looking to batter the travellers.
> 
> ...


But the people of


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 15, 2018)

scifisam said:


> That's the idea (the bolded bit). The Mirror has made this up.


Feels like the whole thing from arrest onwards has been created by the fucking tabloids tbh


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 15, 2018)

Celyn said:


> But the people of


Wut


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 15, 2018)

Thanks to Winston Churchill


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Thanks to Winston Churchill
> 
> View attachment 132855


 I'm not sure what Winston Churchill's got to do with that pic?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I'm not sure what Winston Churchill's got to do with that pic?


He is one of the _heroes_ on those placards.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> He is one of the heroes on those placards.


Ah. I responded to that post on my tablet, and the pic was too small to see it was him. Now I'm on my PC, I can see it. Even so, WTF?  I think equating Mr Osborn-Brooks with Winston Churchill is stretching a point!


----------



## JimW (Apr 15, 2018)

Precisely, Churchill would have brained him with a brandy bottle not a knife.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2018)

or gassed him


----------



## likesfish (Apr 15, 2018)

I think the clan if they carry out there threat to parade the coffin past the house might be in for a surprise
5% of the traveller population is in prison.
   A close look at the Gyipsy minority won't do them any favours and a Burglar who got stabbed by a pensioner defending his disabled wife is not a hill you want to make a stand on..

generally the British don't do mob justice but if they did a small easily identifiable minority make an ideal target


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Ah. I responded to that post on my tablet, and the pic was too small to see it was him. Now I'm on my PC, I can see it. Even so, WTF?  I think equating Mr Osborn-Brooks with Winston Churchill is stretching a point!



I agree. I wasn't doing that though.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

likesfish said:


> I think the clan if they carry out there threat to parade the coffin past the house might be in for a surprise
> 5% of the traveller population is in prison.
> A close look at the Gyipsy minority won't do them any favours and a Burglar who got stabbed by a pensioner defending his disabled wife is not a hill you want to make a stand on..
> 
> generally the British don't do mob justice but if they did a small easily identifiable minority make an ideal target


I really hope it doesn't happen. But I think you're right to say that there's a possibility. And, regardless of the criminal proclivities of a part of a group, targeting and blaming the group for that can't achieve anything.

The best thing, IMO, that could happen is that the whole thing is completely ignored. His relatives claim that this is a private matter, not a public demonstration or threat. So, if they feel, privately, that the way they feel they want to mark the passing of Vincent is to drive his corpse down the road his last victim lived in, then perhaps they should be allowed to do that. Privately. Ideally, it would be organised such that their great parade went, privately, down a few silent and empty streets. Nobody shouting at them, nobody for them to demonstrate to or, if that's what they are doing, threaten. Just a private funeral.

It would be impolite to be on the street and not pay some sort of respect as a coffin goes past...so don't be on the street. Silent, empty and _deserted_ streets. It'd make a far greater statement about the ability of the community to come together and act as one than any amount of sloganeering, abuse, or hurled rocks. And I think it would be deeply unnerving for those privately driving their relative past his victim's house. 

Give them exactly what they claim to want - privacy. In spades.

And then it's over.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Thanks to Winston Churchill
> 
> View attachment 132855


This bloke is a known local character. Amongst his other recent achievements is a bomb shelter he has built with pallets on the bank of the river outside the church. He regularly covers his head in tin foil.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Sweet FA said:


> This bloke is a known local character. Amongst his other recent achievements is a bomb shelter he has built with pallets on the bank of the river outside the church. He regularly covers his head in tin foil.


I thought there was a certain "local character" quality to the placards


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I really hope it doesn't happen. But I think you're right to say that there's a possibility. And, regardless of the criminal proclivities of a part of a group, targeting and blaming the group for that can't achieve anything.
> 
> The best thing, IMO, that could happen is that the whole thing is completely ignored. His relatives claim that this is a private matter, not a public demonstration or threat. So, if they feel, privately, that the way they feel they want to mark the passing of Vincent is to drive his corpse down the road his last victim lived in, then perhaps they should be allowed to do that. Privately. Ideally, it would be organised such that their great parade went, privately, down a few silent and empty streets. Nobody shouting at them, nobody for them to demonstrate to or, if that's what they are doing, threaten. Just a private funeral.
> 
> ...



You mean like the parades in NI for so many years? Everyone being sensible and staying indoors until they’ve passed their homes.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 15, 2018)

fortunately, things haven't reached that poisonous level yet.
 the gipsy troubles would last less than a month if it reached that level of hate when you make up 0.1% of the population inter-communal violence is only ending one way.
   England Prevails.  Fortunately, a bunch of prolific criminals will scurry back under a rock if the glare of publicity continues


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> You mean like the parades in NI for so many years? Everyone being sensible and staying indoors until they’ve passed their homes.


I don't know if you're being ironic, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to conflate the behaviour of Vincent's family to the sectarian strife of Northern Ireland. The parades in Northern Ireland have far more significance to the entire community in terms of what they represent than driving the body of a dead burglar down a suburban residential street.

It's highly unlikely you _would_ get an entire community to agree not to engage with the private funeral, but that doesn't mean it's not worth thinking about. The biggest flaw in it is that there really wouldn't be anything to stop individual hotheads from taking the opportunity to go and pursue their agendas, which would almost certainly happen. But it would be good if it didn't.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 15, 2018)

_"The family of a burglar-killing pensioner are *barred from speaking to him*, says a relative.

Richard Osborn-Brooks and his sick wife Maureen, 76, are in a police safe house after he stabbed intruder Henry Vincent, 37 ..."_

Family of burglar-killing pensioner BARRED from speaking to him, says a relative


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 15, 2018)

> There will be no DWP funeral (they may contribute to it however) but It’ll be a vibrant celebration of lumpen culture.



I do wonder whether it will be genuinely necessary for the relatives of the Late Mr Vincent to celebrate outside his final victims' property.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I don't know if you're being ironic, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to conflate the behaviour of Vincent's family to the sectarian strife of Northern Ireland. The parades in Northern Ireland have far more significance to the entire community in terms of what they represent than driving the body of a dead burglar down a suburban residential street.
> 
> It's highly unlikely you _would_ get an entire community to agree not to engage with the private funeral, but that doesn't mean it's not worth thinking about. The biggest flaw in it is that there really wouldn't be anything to stop individual hotheads from taking the opportunity to go and pursue their agendas, which would almost certainly happen. But it would be good if it didn't.



Since when do funeral processions go anywhere but between the home of the deceased/place of worship/cremation etc? They do not make 15 mile diversions to trot by the place of death. Doing so on this occasion would be an act of provocation and I don’t see why the community should stand for it. Sure it might garner less publicity if they stayed in their homes, but that wouldn’t make it any less intimidating to people scared of when the next burglary is going to happen on their street.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> I do wonder whether it will be genuinely necessary for the relatives of the Late Mr Vincent to celebrate outside his final victims' property.


Of course it's not. But they say it is. So they're either refused permission (which I'm not sure is possible), or they're allowed to. The question is then how it's dealt with.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Since when do funeral processions go anywhere but between the home of the deceased/place of worship/cremation etc? They do not make 15 mile diversions to trot by the place of death. Doing so on this occasion would be an act of provocation and I don’t see why the community should stand for it. Sure it might garner less publicity if they stayed in their homes, but that wouldn’t make it any less intimidating to people scared of when the next burglary is going to happen on their street.


So what does the community "not standing for it" look like?


----------



## Smangus (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Since when do funeral processions go anywhere but between the home of the deceased/place of worship/cremation etc? They do not make 15 mile diversions to trot by the place of death. Doing so on this occasion would be an act of provocation and I don’t see why the community should stand for it. Sure it might garner less publicity if they stayed in their homes, but that wouldn’t make it any less intimidating to people scared of when the next burglary is going to happen on their street.



tbf Lewisham Cemetery is about 300 yards up the road.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> So what does the community "not standing for it" look like?



It probably looks like no funeral director agreeing to the route on account of them not wanting to risk their horses and finery anywhere there might be a someone keen to throw something other than flowers.


----------



## Mrs D (Apr 15, 2018)

Smangus said:


> tbf Lewisham Cemetery is about 300 yards up the road.



Sure but he’s being buried in Orpington


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> It probably looks like no funeral director agreeing to the route on account of them not wanting to risk their horses and finery anywhere there might be a someone keen to throw something other than flowers.


Well, that would be something, certainly.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 15, 2018)

shouldn't the cortege be pulled by a host of pensioners on mobililty scooters in honour of the deceased's contribution to maintaining the integrity of the roofing of that particular demographic.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

hot air baboon said:


> shouldn't the cortege be pulled by a host of pensioners on mobililty scooters in honour of the deceased's contribution to maintaining the integrity of the roofing of that particular demographic.


Well, it could be a handy alternative if it turns out that all the black horses in SE London had prior commitments on the day of the proposed funeral


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Hmm.

Birthday balloons left at Hither Green street where intruder died

To be honest, this doesn't feel to me like a totally innocent act. But I was slightly gratified by:



> Police stopped the group from stapling banners and balloons to the garden fences of homeowners on the street.



It's a start, although the fact that the police needed to stop them stapling (ffs! ) things to someone's fence bodes rather. And not just one - "the garden fences". This has a nasty undertone to it.


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I'm not sure what Winston Churchill's got to do with that pic?


Some bugger needs to dad the publicity seeking sod over the Heid with his placards.


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

likesfish said:


> I think the clan if they carry out there threat to parade the coffin past the house might be in for a surprise
> 5% of the traveller population is in prison.
> A close look at the Gyipsy minority won't do them any favours and a Burglar who got stabbed by a pensioner defending his disabled wife is not a hill you want to make a stand on..
> 
> generally the British don't do mob justice but if they did a small easily identifiable minority make an ideal target


They aren't 'gypsies' or 'travellers' they are locally raised scroats who, for some reason have identified with the aforementioned groups.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Birthday balloons left at Hither Green street where intruder died
> 
> ...



At the very least this is where he fell not opposite the house.

I have been told today that it is a tradition in the traveler community to procession the deceased around their favourite places including where they died where possible. That gave me a bit of perspective on how funeral plan as it has been OVER reported...


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

coley said:


> Where have all the flowers gone?(Vincent's lot)
> In the bin, every...fucking .. one (locals)
> When will you ever learn,  we'll fuck you up at every turn (Vincent's lot)
> Tell that to your mate in the urn (locals)
> ...   over to you Urbs


Bugger, thought some of the more 'musically accomplished urbs' would have added a few lines


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I think it was Stompingman #3, the Terry Pratchett tribute act, who also said 'my dad didn't fight at Monte Casino only to get 2 bob a week pension' for this. There's your bonus ball.


Oi, leave my favourite author out of this


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> You mean like the parades in NI for so many years? Everyone being sensible and staying indoors until they’ve passed their homes.


Pity the Catholic community didn't treat the Orange Utans with silent contempt, it would have driven them nuts.


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> _"The family of a burglar-killing pensioner are *barred from speaking to him*, says a relative.
> 
> Richard Osborn-Brooks and his sick wife Maureen, 76, are in a police safe house after he stabbed intruder Henry Vincent, 37 ..."_
> 
> Family of burglar-killing pensioner BARRED from speaking to him, says a relative


Jeez, look at the photo at the head of the so called article, its designed to look like the poor sod is celebrating what happened.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 15, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> At the very least this is where he fell not opposite the house.
> 
> I have been told today that it is a tradition in the traveler community to procession the deceased around their favourite places including where they died where possible. That gave me a bit of perspective on the who funeral plan as it has been OVER reported...



There was a shrine on top of dulwich woods for years- a traveller bloke crashed through the fence and was killed- it had a memorial stone and everything - took the council a long while get it moved out as the family were resistant.


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Of course it's not. But they say it is. So they're either refused permission (which I'm not sure is possible), or they're allowed to. The question is then how it's dealt with.


Tornados and bunker busters? Seems to have shut one obstreperous neighbour up


----------



## Wilf (Apr 15, 2018)

coley said:


> Oi, leave my favourite author out of this


To be fair the flower depositors only wanted equal rites, only to have to see the last hero stomp all over them.   I think the police are now keeping a night watch, given the interesting times we live in. For the Mail of course, it's just a case of making money.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 15, 2018)

There’s now been a vigil at the address to mark (what would have been) his 38th birthday. 

Family Of Burglar Stabbed In Hither Green Hold Birthday Vigil Outside House Where He Died


----------



## coley (Apr 15, 2018)

Wilf said:


> To be fair the flower depositors only wanted equal rites, only to have to see the last hero stomp all over them.   I think the police are now keeping a night watch, given the interesting times we live in. For the Mail of course, it's just a case of making money.


The whole situation is just raising steam and both sides seem to be 'going postal'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2018)

Clashes?

Dead burglar's family clash with police and locals as they lay birthday shrine

Well there is this at least...



> The auntie added they would not be returning to the road and were only here due to Henry's birthday.
> 
> "Just leave them (the flowers) alone, we are not coming back anymore to this s**t road."
> 
> She added Henry had a "drug addiction" and he "paid the ultimate price."


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 16, 2018)

> They aren't 'gypsies' or 'travellers' they are locally raised scroats who, for some reason have identified with the aforementioned groups ...





> The travellers accused police of racism as they laid their tributes.
> 
> One woman said: “Why are you being racist? Why are you people picking on us for?”



Can anyone with local knowledge clarify this?

Are burglars considered to be a specific race, group or nationality with protected characteristics?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2018)

coley said:


> Pity the Catholic community didn't treat the Orange Utans with silent contempt, it would have driven them nuts.



Or it'd made them the think they'd won, empowering them to escalate their shitty behaviour still further.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 16, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Or it'd made them the think they'd won, empowering them to escalate their shitty behaviour still further.


IME, stuff doesn't work like that. If you actually completely deprive the other party of any engagement, it usually throws them into disarray. Sure, they'll try and put a brave face on it by claiming to have "won", but nobody's really convinced. If, on the other hand, the opposition does engage, and then either backs down or is forced into retreat, the other party does get to claim some kind of superiority.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 16, 2018)

existentialist said:


> IME, stuff doesn't work like that. If you actually completely deprive the other party of any engagement, it usually throws them into disarray. Sure, they'll try and put a brave face on it by claiming to have "won", but nobody's really convinced. If, on the other hand, the opposition does engage, and then either backs down or is forced into retreat, the other party does get to claim some kind of superiority.


This^^^
All the Orange cunts want is a reaction. They're not marching because they like marching. They're marching because they like pissing people off.

That reminds me... 
What's the difference between an apple and an orange? 
Have you ever heard of an apple bastard?*  
*outside of technology circles


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 17, 2018)

Latest updates...


> Flowers and tributes for the burglar who was stabbed to death during a botched break-in at a pensioner’s home have been moved from the street where he died by the local council.
> Dead burglar's shrine outside pensioner's home taken down by council





> A removal firm is packing up the belongings of a pensioner who tackled a prolific burglar who had broken into his house.
> 
> Richard Osborn-Brooks, 78, and his wife Maureen have not been seen at their home in Hither Green since the death of Henry Vincent, a career criminal who died of a stab wound after struggling with Mr Osborn-Brooks during a break-in.
> 
> ...





> vigilantes are understood to be planning a roadblock to stop the funeral procession of a burglar from passing the house of his victim.
> Vigilantes 'planning roadblock' to stop Hither Green burglar's funeral procession from passing victim's house


----------



## Wilf (Apr 17, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Latest updates...


No doubt the mail's _Hero Pensioner Team_ of crack journalists will be following the removal van to the _Hero Pensioner's_ new address. If I was a betting feller I'd be asking for a price on them revealing that address over the next week.

'I'm Alan Partridge and I'm standing outside the new home of ...'.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 17, 2018)

Wilf said:


> No doubt the mail's _Hero Pensioner Team_ of crack journalists will be following the removal van to the _Hero Pensioner's_ new address. If I was a betting feller I'd be asking for a price on them revealing that address over the next week.
> 
> 'I'm Alan Partridge and I'm standing outside the new home of ...'.



According to reports they are currently living in a police safe house, in which case their stuff could just be going into storage for now, until they find a place of their own.


----------



## keybored (Apr 17, 2018)

Wilf said:


> No doubt the mail's _Hero Pensioner Team_ of crack journalists will be following the removal van to the _Hero Pensioner's_ new address. If I was a betting feller I'd be asking for a price on them revealing that address over the next week.
> 
> 'I'm Alan Partridge and I'm standing outside the new home of ...'.



It'll go into storage first. Then they'd have to be following x amount of removal vans leaving the storage facility for y amount of time.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 17, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Latest updates...



The irony ...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 17, 2018)

Yes, I know (attempted joke ).

Something along the lines of 'My old man editor said foller the van, and don't dilly dally nip in for a kebab on the way'.


----------



## coley (Apr 19, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Or it'd made them the think they'd won, empowering them to escalate their shitty behaviour still further.



Aye fair point. I can still remember looking on with disbelief,   at the arrogance of these people,  I was 17 and had never seen anything like it, blokes dressed like London businessmen, dark suits,bowlers an all,  wearing an orange sash carrying an umbrella in one hand  but in the other  a sword resting on the shoulder?
Ordinarily I would  have laughed me cock off at the sight, but they marched with an ominous arrogance that removed any sense of humour.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 20, 2018)

coley said:


> Aye fair point. I can still remember looking on with disbelief,   at the arrogance of these people,  I was 17 and had never seen anything like it, blokes dressed like London businessmen, dark suits,bowlers an all,  wearing an orange sash carrying an umbrella in one hand  but in the other  a sword resting on the shoulder?
> Ordinarily I would  have laughed me cock off at the sight, but they marched with an ominous arrogance that removed any sense of humour.


They're not normal people. They're a laughing stock, desperately clinging on to the red, white and blue that gives them a reason to live.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Can anyone with local knowledge clarify this?
> 
> Are burglars considered to be a specific race, group or nationality with protected characteristics?



Local low lifes have discovered if they claim to be in an 'ethnic minority' plod will be a tad wary of targeting them, hence Joe bloggs, who I went to school with, his da, who started  'doon the pit' my Da, suddenly finds that sticking a covered traditional caravan at the bottom of his garden and tethering a horse on public land suddenly makes him a genuine member of the traveller/gipsy community


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> This^^^
> All the Orange cunts want is a reaction. They're not marching because they like marching. They're marching because they like pissing people off.
> 
> That reminds me...
> ...


Can think of one large 'orange bastard'


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> They're not normal people. They're a laughing stock, desperately clinging on to the red, white and blue that gives them a reason to live.


Aye, but I'm going back a few moons, hopefully those I watched those many years ago are all now in their unionist heaven


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 20, 2018)

coley said:


> Aye, but I'm going back a few moons, hopefully those I watched those many years ago are all now in their unionist heaven


Nothing has changed. It's still the same bitter old cunts doing the same bitter old shit.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Nothing has changed. It's still the same bitter old cunts doing the same bitter old shit.



Haven't really been following it but I doubt the orange marches of today are the same massive 'in yer face marches of the 70s'
And TBF the amount of genuine 'fear and hate'  seems much less, seems things have largely settled down since  the Republicans were bought out and neutralised.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 20, 2018)

coley said:


> Haven't really been following it but I doubt the orange marches of today are the same massive 'in yer face marches of the 70s'
> And TBF the amount of genuine 'fear and hate'  seems much less, seems things have largely settled down since  the Republicans were bought out and neutralised.


My bad. I didn't realise you were talking about the 70s. I'm really old, and even I don't remember them


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> My bad. I didn't realise you were talking about the 70s. I'm really old, and even I don't remember them


Cheeky sod


----------



## mrs quoad (Apr 20, 2018)

coley said:


> Local low lifes have discovered if they claim to be in an 'ethnic minority' plod will be a tad wary of targeting them, hence Joe bloggs, who I went to school with, his da, who started  'doon the pit' my Da, suddenly finds that sticking a covered traditional caravan at the bottom of his garden and tethering a horse on public land suddenly makes him a genuine member of the traveller/gipsy community


Spell this out for me - so people from ethnic minorities are under-policed, and this would be clearly visible in (eg) stop and search data, one of the best means we have of understanding the use of frontline police discretion? (Ie, their “wariness” of targeting people who claim to be from an ethnic minority).


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

mrs quoad said:


> Spell this out for me - so people from ethnic minorities are under-policed, and this would be clearly visible in (eg) stop and search data, one of the best means we have of understanding the use of frontline police discretion? (Ie, their “wariness” of targeting people who claim to be from an ethnic minority).



Since the disgrace of the Stephen Lawrence investigation the plod have had to set themselves a higher bar when it comes to targeting ethnic minorities and they now think carefully before exercising their various powers.
Some  around here, can't speak for other areas, have found it a useful tactic to self describe themselves as an 'ethnic minority' to, muddy the waters, when they are stopped/searched/arrested.
Obviously it doesn't work in the case of serious crimes, but they often get a 'pass' when it comes down to minor stuff, I.E. the local plod don't want the hassle when anti social behaviour is reported, unless it's in the 'leafy lane' areas.


----------



## mrs quoad (Apr 20, 2018)

coley said:


> Since the disgrace of the Stephen Lawrence investigation the plod have had to set themselves a higher bar when it comes to targeting ethnic minorities and they now think carefully before exercising their various powers.


So if people from ethnic minorities were, for example, vastly over-represented in police stop and search encounters, what would that suggest?


----------



## mrs quoad (Apr 20, 2018)

Given I’m off to bed...

Stop and search data: Stop and search - GOV.UK Ethnicity facts and figures

The Lammy Review’s statistical report (which picks up from the point of arrest): https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...639261/bame-disproportionality-in-the-cjs.pdf

If you do know anyone who’s following the strategy you describe, coley, probably best to let them know that all the best evidence suggests it’s a fucking appalling idea.

Edit: and chances are that where discretion is being used to under-report stop and search, as Coley notes, chances are it’s being used to make the figures look somewhat less appalling than they actually are.


----------



## oryx (Apr 20, 2018)

Suspect arrested in fatal burglary probe

They've arrested the other chap.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

mrs quoad said:


> Given I’m off to bed...
> 
> Stop and search data: Stop and search - GOV.UK Ethnicity facts and figures
> 
> ...




in 2015/16, Durham was the only area where White people were more likely to be stopped and searched compared to Black people (they were 1.2 times more likely)
Can't find the figures for Northumbria

Point I was trying to make, as politically correctly as possible.
Around here,  those making a living after dark will accuse plod of targeting them because they (supposedly)belong to the Gypsy/travelling community rather than plod stopping them because their transit had been reported as being seen near the site of a reported burglary!
As to the areas of policing which  you obviously want to explore?  I really can't comment,  I live in a very rural community where murder and violence are extremely rare, even in our local towns and city's it's still rare, compared to London Birmingham etc.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2018)

oryx said:


> Suspect arrested in fatal burglary probe
> 
> They've arrested the other chap.


WTF?  the pensioner in question is, in all reliable media reports, deeply traumatised by the events of that night, in hiding and in fear of reprisals from the dead burglars friends and family.
Yet we repeatedly get this picture of the bloke (BBC/DM) apparently quaffing a couple of pints of Guinness, in what appears to be a celebratory mood?...what gives?


----------



## oryx (Apr 20, 2018)

coley said:


> WTF?  the pensioner in question is, in all reliable media reports, deeply traumatised by the events of that night, in hiding and in fear of reprisals from the dead burglars friends and family.
> Yet we repeatedly get this picture of the bloke (BBC/DM) apparently quaffing a couple of pints of Guinness, in what appears to be a celebratory mood?...what gives?



Indeed - there must be other pictures of him that are more appropriate.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 20, 2018)

oryx said:


> Indeed - there must be other pictures of him that are more appropriate.


I'm sure there are. I'm also fairly sure this picture will have been chosen deliberately.


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm sure there are. I'm also fairly sure this picture will have been chosen deliberately.


Aye, in order to inflame certain groups and keep the story running, now that 'flowergate' has turned into a bit of a damp squib.


----------



## mrs quoad (Apr 21, 2018)

coley said:


> Point I was trying to make, as politically correctly as possible.
> Around here,  those making a living after dark will accuse plod of targeting them because they (supposedly)belong to the Gypsy/travelling community rather than plod stopping them because their transit had been reported as being seen near the site of a reported burglary!


Could you give us the “not as politically correct as possible” version?

The rest of your post suggests almost complete ignorance about the way frontline policing / stop and search works, either officially or unofficially; or as described by police, described by the people they police, or described in the best evidence available (ie, nationally recorded datasets of all stops and searches).

If “those making a living after dark” are doing this, they’re complete morons. This would be a complete invitation to police to follow this up as hard as possible; it’s a failure of the attitude test, and if they’ve already been able to identify sufficient reasons for a stop check / stop and search, there’s almost no way that wouldn’t be progressing further. Sudden, urgent response calls aside.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 21, 2018)

coley said:


> Aye, in order to inflame certain groups and keep the story running, now that 'flowergate' has turned into a bit of a damp squib.



How on earth would it inflame anyone? It's an awesome photo.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2018)

ma couldn't read it either, said she thought its making him look bad/a pisshead. Rather than what it clearly is 'this mans a _fucking lad_' 

'two pints for the old boy, fair play' etc etc

it is a good photo but if you were choosing one, thats the reason you'd go for that one.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 21, 2018)

I do realise that this is a bit of a tangent, but the phrase about making a living after dark just reminded me of a song.:


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 21, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> ma couldn't read it either, said she thought its making him look bad/a pisshead. Rather than what it clearly is 'this mans a _fucking lad_'
> 
> 'two pints for the old boy, fair play' etc etc
> 
> it is a good photo but if you were choosing one, thats the reason you'd go for that one.


Exactly. It's a photo of him being celebrated. People have bought him pints for standing up for himself. He's being hailed a hero for killing the scummer.
A perfect photo for the media.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 21, 2018)

Also, there might not be that many photos of him. There are about three with my face in from the past couple of years, and they all have other people in too, and I'm a younger person (compared to him, before some rude bastard corrects me) who uses social media.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 29, 2018)

More bad news for the grief-stricken family of The Late Henry Vincent:

Hither Green burglar Henry Vincent's uncle and cousin jailed for scamming homeowner, 60, out of _thousands_


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 29, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> More bad news for the grief-stricken family of The Late Henry Vincent:
> 
> Hither Green burglar Henry Vincent's uncle and cousin jailed for scamming homeowner, 60, out of _thousands_


What a bunch of vile, nasty cunts. Vermin


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 30, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> What a bunch of vile, nasty cunts. Vermin


I tried to not give a fuck about the scum dying but I'm actively celebrating it now. I hope the rest of his scumbag family meet the same fate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I tried to not give a fuck about the scum dying but I'm actively celebrating it now. I hope the rest of his scumbag family meet the same fate.


you can relax, knowing that they will all die.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 30, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you can relax, knowing that they will all die.


I'm sure they will but I hope they receive help from their victims.


----------



## twentythreedom (May 2, 2018)

Funeral tomorrow

Hope they stay away from the house and nearby


----------



## 8ball (May 2, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> More bad news for the grief-stricken family of The Late Henry Vincent:
> 
> Hither Green burglar Henry Vincent's uncle and cousin jailed for scamming homeowner, 60, out of _thousands_



Oh.  How sad.


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

twentythreedom said:


> Funeral tomorrow
> 
> Hope they stay away from the house and nearby


The Daily Mail's going to be a jizz fountain tomorrow then.


----------



## scifisam (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The Daily Mail's going to be a jizz fountain tomorrow then.



Hopefully someone prominent will insult Lord Harry so they'll be distracted.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The Daily Mail's going to be a jizz fountain tomorrow then.



Good...if ever the Daily Mail was right it is with this family of scumbags.
We should deport the dodgy cunts to Canvey and just blow the bridge.

How about the people that live on that street. How about having some empathy for the poor people that live there instead of worrying about the DM.


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Good...if ever the Daily Mail was right it is with this family of scumbags.
> We should deport the dodgy cunts to Canvey and just blow the bridge.
> 
> How about the people that live on that street. How about having some empathy for the poor people that live there instead of worrying about the DM.


I'll comment on whichever bit of the fucking story I want, thanks. And if you'd even paid the most cursory attention to the thread you'd know I've expressed my sympathy for the old bloke and his family repeatedly. Ditto in terms of calling the burglar and those of his family who prey on the vulnerable, cunts, despicable and a range of other terms.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'll comment on whichever bit of the fucking story I want, thanks. And if you'd even paid the most cursory attention to the thread you'd know I've expressed my sympathy for the old bloke and his family repeatedly. Ditto in terms of calling the burglar and those of his family who prey on the vulnerable, cunts, despicable and a range of other terms.



So why the concern about the Daily Mail? What is it they are going to say that worries you?


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 3, 2018)

locals seem to be blocking the street to ensure the mourners cannot drive past. Also, in the free rag this AM, there was some article about the Vincent family now owning a 40 acre farm that was given/ sold for pennies,  to them by some old bloke , much to the chagrin of his family. the old bloke now lives in a caravan on what was his land.


----------



## mrs quoad (May 3, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> locals seem to be blocking the street to ensure the mourners cannot drive past. Also, in the free rag this AM, there was some article about the Vincent family now owning a 40 acre farm that was given/ sold for pennies,  to them by some old bloke , much to the chagrin of his family. the old bloke now lives in a caravan on what was his land.


Yes.

The mail are having a field day with this. Clearly pushing for an investigation of the sale.


----------



## existentialist (May 3, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> locals seem to be blocking the street to ensure the mourners cannot drive past. Also, in the free rag this AM, there was some article about the Vincent family now owning a 40 acre farm that was given/ sold for pennies,  to them by some old bloke , much to the chagrin of his family. the old bloke now lives in a caravan on what was his land.


I assume the cortege did not get to go down the street in question. I feel dirty now - I went to the Daily Mail page about the funeral. They're loving all this.


----------



## gentlegreen (May 3, 2018)

Just imagine being born into a family like that !
Cue to leave the country and / or change surname by deed poll.


----------



## ddraig (May 3, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Good...if ever the Daily Mail was right it is with this family of scumbags.
> We should deport the dodgy cunts to Canvey and just blow the bridge.
> 
> How about the people that live on that street. How about having some empathy for the poor people that live there instead of worrying about the DM.


you manning the barricades with coley and others from this thread? prick


----------



## cybershot (May 3, 2018)

Henry Vincent funeral CHAOS: Police PIN DOWN mourner outside church in fiery scenes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/03/residents-block-hither-green-street-ahead-henry-vincents-funeral/


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So why the concern about the Daily Mail? What is it they are going to say that worries you?


Because of where this has got to today - utterly predictable. They've ramped it up to the point of actual conflict happening at the funeral - the very thing they wanted to happen given all the time they've invested in the story. Some of that conflict is utterly manufactured, mourners flicking v signs at reporters as they jog alongside funeral cars >>>> which the mail then reports breathlessly on. Some of it real with reports of stones being thrown, somebody pinned down by cops, people turning up to throw eggs (apparently).  A truly horrible situation for the Guinness bloke and his family, a family of predators on the old and vulnerable - then the fucking vultures at the mail making money out of the situation, people's fears, resentments  and the rest.

Also worth adding that the mail have lied throughout the whole story. From what I can tell, admittedly from a brief glance today, there never was a real plan to go past the old bloke's house. I'm also dubious about the claims of 100k funeral (with added reference to the benefit system paying for it or some such). Happy to circulate inflammatory shite without a moments investigative reporting.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Because of where this has got to today - utterly predictable. They've ramped it up to the point of actual conflict happening at the funeral - the very thing they wanted to happen given all the time they've invested in the story. Some of that conflict is utterly manufactured, mourners flicking v signs at reporters as they jog alongside funeral cars >>>> which the mail then reports breathlessly on. Some of it real with reports of stones being thrown, somebody pinned down by cops, people turning up to throw eggs (apparently).  A truly horrible situation for the Guinness bloke and his family, a family of predators on the old and vulnerable - then the fucking vultures at the mail making money out of the situation, people's fears, resentments  and the rest.
> 
> Also worth adding that the mail have lied throughout the whole story. From what I can tell, admittedly from a brief glance today, there never was a real plan to go past the old bloke's house. I'm also dubious about the claims of 100k funeral (with added reference to the benefit system paying for it or some such). Happy to circulate inflammatory shite without a moments investigative reporting.


power without responsibility


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I assume the cortege did not get to go down the street in question. I feel dirty now - I went to the Daily Mail page about the funeral. They're loving all this.


some of the web pages are stuck together


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Good...if ever the Daily Mail was right it is with this family of scumbags.


hurrah for the heil

the only time the mail has ever been right is when they named stephen lawrence's killers as murderers and dared them to sue.


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

Admittedly, my friends at the Mail have now informed me that Mr Vincent had a Celine Dion song at his funeral.  Right, where's me ASBO and me pitchfork!


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2018)

If they've attacked Express and Mail journalists they can't be all bad.


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

JimW said:


> If they've attacked Express and Mail journalists they can't be all bad.


The road to redemption.


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The road to redemption.


Sadly blocked by irate locals after they did a few dodgy roof jobs over in Perdition-on-the-Naze


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

Here's the guardian's take on the same events:
Hither Green intruder funeral takes place with police presence
They are actually more explicit than the mail about the violence, giving more detail, but also make clear that it was all (seemingly) aimed at _journalists_.  They also note than the funeral procession didn't even enter the borough (I don't know the area though, so I don't know how close that actually was).


----------



## not a trot (May 3, 2018)

cybershot said:


> Henry Vincent funeral CHAOS: Police PIN DOWN mourner outside church in fiery scenes
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/03/residents-block-hither-green-street-ahead-henry-vincents-funeral/



wonder if legal & general will be using the footage to advertise one of their funeral plans.


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

not a trot said:


> wonder if legal & general will be using the footage to advertise one of their funeral plans.


----------



## MickiQ (May 3, 2018)

I wonder if the undertaker will give his staff a bonus for all the shit they are having to put up with today.


----------



## Celyn (May 3, 2018)

I'm sort of impressed by this bit, although it does seem slightly over the top.



> Ten black Mercedes limousines transported the family home of Mr Vincent on a housing estate in Swanley to the church and then on to the cemetery.



Henry Vincent funeral: Trouble at procession for Hither Green burglar | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I wonder if the undertaker will give his staff a bonus for all the shit they are having to put up with today.



"In a tribute to the family, gravediggers took full payment but only removed 6 inches of topsoil"


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 3, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I wonder if the undertaker will give his staff a bonus for all the shit they are having to put up with today.


 
Undertakers have a fairly high client default rate IIRC, I think latest estimate are of about *£100 Mn* in bills outstanding across the UK these days. If this did cost £100K ( which is a made up magic figure designed to provoke red faced fury amongst the DM readership I think ) they would be sensible to get some of it paid up front.

ETA c. £145 Mn outstanding debt to funeral directors @ 2014


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Undertakers have a fairly high client default rate IIRC, I think latest estimate are of about £100 Mn in bills outstanding across the UK these days. If this did cost £100K ( which is a made up magic figure designed to provoke red faced fury amongst the DM readership I think ) they would be sensible to get some of it paid up front.


no wonder they always look so downcast


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 3, 2018)

Funeral directors are victims of the prostitue principle I think - its harder to get the fee paid once the act has been completed and the emotions have calmed down a bit.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Funeral directors are victims of the prostitue principle I think - its harder to get the fee paid once the act has been completed and the emotions have calmed down a bit.


i think you mean it is harder to get the fee paid once the hardness has diminished, be it rigor mortis or tumescence.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 3, 2018)

I was trying to be delicate...

eta, there is FUCK all way this cost £100K btw :  I think this is 5x overstated at best ( I did some research around this sector  a few years ago. fascinating stuff)


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I was trying to be delicate...


This is no thread for nuance, as I've discovered.


----------



## existentialist (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Here's the guardian's take on the same events:
> Hither Green intruder funeral takes place with police presence
> They are actually more explicit than the mail about the violence, giving more detail, but also make clear that it was all (seemingly) aimed at _journalists_.  They also note than the funeral procession didn't even enter the borough (I don't know the area though, so I don't know how close that actually was).


Yes, I had the impression that the Mail was being very careful not to say where the funeral was going


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Yes, I had the impression that the Mail was being very careful not to say where the funeral was going


not to mention printing a picture identifying the location of the grave


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 3, 2018)

I am very much a pessimist but that grave is going to attract attention in the future I think


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

"THE FUNERAL IS _LITERALLY_ (not) GOING PAST HIS HOUSE!"


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 3, 2018)

“The king is dead.”

I thought Elvis Presley died years ago.


----------



## existentialist (May 3, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> “The king is dead.”
> 
> I thought Elvis Presley died years ago.


And George VI even longer ago...


----------



## MickiQ (May 3, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> “The king is dead.”
> 
> I thought Elvis Presley died years ago.


Yes but his music will live on forever


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2018)

"Troubled has flared at the funeral of slain burglar Henry Vincent Prince Philip. Mourners swore and threw rocks at the press Nicholas Witchell as the funeral costing the made up sum of £100k £100 million from the public purse passed by..."


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 3, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Because of where this has got to today - utterly predictable. They've ramped it up to the point of actual conflict happening at the funeral - the very thing they wanted to happen given all the time they've invested in the story. Some of that conflict is utterly manufactured, mourners flicking v signs at reporters as they jog alongside funeral cars >>>> which the mail then reports breathlessly on. Some of it real with reports of stones being thrown, somebody pinned down by cops, people turning up to throw eggs (apparently).  A truly horrible situation for the Guinness bloke and his family, a family of predators on the old and vulnerable - then the fucking vultures at the mail making money out of the situation, people's fears, resentments  and the rest.
> 
> Also worth adding that the mail have lied throughout the whole story. From what I can tell, admittedly from a brief glance today, there never was a real plan to go past the old bloke's house. I'm also dubious about the claims of 100k funeral (with added reference to the benefit system paying for it or some such). Happy to circulate inflammatory shite without a moments investigative reporting.



The fact that the media sensationalise events, promote 'moral panics' and then report on the increase in incidence of them, make shit up and fulminate over fictions isn't new though is it? But that wasn't what I thought you were on about so fair enough.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 3, 2018)

ddraig said:


> you manning the barricades with coley and others from this thread? prick


 
Oh ddraig - you are the most predictable little piss stain on this site.

You will quite happily whine about abuse and dish it out yet when called a snivelling little cuntbubble you start crying...bless you.

Yes -  I am a prick but at least I have one..

It would have been a good target for a drone strike afaik.


----------



## existentialist (May 4, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Oh ddraig - you are the most predictable little piss stain on this site.
> 
> You will quite happily whine about abuse and dish it out yet when called a snivelling little cuntbubble you start crying...bless you.
> 
> ...


I am not, by a long chalk, any fan of ddraig's, but that was uncalled-for.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'll comment on whichever bit of the fucking story I want, thanks. And if you'd even paid the most cursory attention to the thread you'd know I've expressed my sympathy for the old bloke and his family repeatedly. Ditto in terms of calling the burglar and those of his family who prey on the vulnerable, cunts, despicable and a range of other terms.



No,  I didn't pay cursory attention, so I apologise for that!

I just felt like a rant tbh.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I am not, by a long chalk, any fan of ddraig's, but that was uncalled-for.



The truth hurts...sorry about that.


----------



## existentialist (May 4, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> The truth hurts...sorry about that.


There are better ways of delivering the truth than dick-waving insults. That way, the truth only hurts you.


----------



## Shechemite (May 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> dick-waving insults. That way, the truth only hurts you.



Potential to hurt ones dick as well


----------



## ddraig (May 4, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Oh ddraig - you are the most predictable little piss stain on this site.
> 
> You will quite happily whine about abuse and dish it out yet when called a snivelling little cuntbubble you start crying...bless you.
> 
> ...


how does your post compare to "you manning the barricades with coley and others from this thread? prick"  ??


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

existentialist said:


> There are better ways of delivering the truth than dick-waving insults. That way, the truth only hurts you.



I didn't start this shit. He is the one wading in with an insult. He should be able to look after himself the fucking prick.

That ok with you mum?

Jeez.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

ddraig said:


> how does your post compare to "you manning the barricades with coley and others from this thread? prick"  ??



Stop calling me a prick and I might stop insulting you?

Is that too hard a concept for you to grasp?


----------



## Dogsauce (May 4, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> eta, there is FUCK all way this cost £100K btw :  I think this is 5x overstated at best ( I did some research around this sector  a few years ago. fascinating stuff)



Maybe the undertaker just got with the territory and billed the most vulnerable elderly and senile member of the family £100k for a £20k job.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

I apologised for my behaviour with another poster but he didn't call me a prick?

Strange eh?

You on the other hand are always abusive then start crying when people crack on.

Anyway - you so make me laugh so


ddraig said:


> how does your post compare to "you manning the barricades with coley and others from this thread? prick"  ??



Top whingeing you little snivveler grass x


----------



## ddraig (May 4, 2018)

grow up eh, your abuse is OTT and disproportionate 
leaving it at that for sake of thread


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 4, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Yes - I am a prick but at least I have one..


Tbf,  you lost at this point. 
ETA.
I don't have a dick so you can ignore my input completely.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

Calamity1971 said:


> Tbf,  you lost at this point.
> ETA.
> I don't have a dick so you can ignore my input completely.



I was assuming ddraig had one as he has claimed to be a man previously. I thought he may just as lost his along the way playing golf or something?

No judgement on anyone who may have had a cock or not. IDGAF?


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 4, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> IDGAF?


The female race will be gutted.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 4, 2018)

Odd thread


----------



## alfajobrob (May 4, 2018)

Calamity1971 said:


> Tbf,  you lost at this point.
> ETA.
> I don't have a dick so you can ignore my input completely.



Whatevs...go fuck your mum. I don't care about winning an argument on the internet...it was an excuse to abuse ddraig after he called me a prick.

Fuck him and fuck you..another whining prissy cunt.

Happy days


----------



## Gromit (May 4, 2018)

I didn't agree with the scummy actions of the burglar but neither do I agree with the actions of those protesting the funeral.

His family might or might not be wronguns but decent people would still give them the right to grieve and say goodbye to someone they loved in peace.


----------



## existentialist (May 5, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> Whatevs...go fuck your mum. I don't care about winning an argument on the internet...it was an excuse to abuse ddraig after he called me a prick.
> 
> Fuck him and fuck you..another whining prissy cunt.
> 
> Happy days


Always nice to see when the charm school fees have proved their value


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 5, 2018)

alfajobrob said:


> . I don't care about winning an argument on the internet


It's a good job, because your debating skills are on par with your bedside manner.


----------



## existentialist (May 5, 2018)

Calamity1971 said:


> It's a good job, because your debating skills are on par with your bedside manner.


----------



## GarveyLives (May 5, 2018)

Why did those attending to mourn the loss of the Late Henry Vincent find it necessary to bring eggs with them to the service?


----------



## Shechemite (May 5, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Why did those attending to mourn the loss of the Late Henry Vincent find it necessary to bring eggs with them to the service?



?


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## existentialist (May 5, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Why did those attending to mourn the loss of the Late Henry Vincent find it necessary to bring eggs with them to the service?


Late breakfast, I imagine. I can't think of another reason; can you?


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## Saul Goodman (May 5, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Why did those attending to mourn the loss of the Late Henry Vincent find it necessary to bring eggs with them to the service?


I don't know. They probably poached them along the way.


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## Buddy Bradley (May 5, 2018)

Gromit said:


> I didn't agree with the scummy actions of the burglar but neither do I agree with the actions of those protesting the funeral.
> 
> His family might or might not be wronguns but decent people would still give them the right to grieve and say goodbye to someone they loved in peace.


There wasn't anyone protesting the funeral, at least as far as Radio 4 were reporting - the clashes/violence were due to the mourners taking exception to the presence of the media.


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## cupid_stunt (May 5, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I don't know. They probably poached them along the way.



I think you mean, 'foraged' them.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 5, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think you mean, 'foraged' them.



Yes he didn’t mean to make a pun.


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## cupid_stunt (May 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes he didn’t mean to make a pun.



Yes, I got the pun, hence why I 'liked' it.


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## phillm (May 5, 2018)

Mrs D said:


> Thanks to Winston Churchill
> 
> View attachment 132855



Terry Pratchett has lost his mind and come back from the dead so it would seem in re-incarnation you come back in the state you died - except for Jesus of course.


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## phillm (May 5, 2018)

Tom Hanks is a shoe-in when they make the movie ... you can tell he's a hardun as he quaffs two Guinnesses simultaneously.


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## Mrs Miggins (May 5, 2018)

What a hideous circus this has become! I read the start of it when the thread was first posted and being overseas, have not heard any more about it. Looking in today, it's a bit of a shocker how the story has developed.


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## keybored (May 5, 2018)

phillm said:


> Tom Hanks is a shoe-in when they make the movie



It's a shame Pat Morita has left us.


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## GarveyLives (Jun 3, 2018)

> What a hideous circus this has become! I read the start of it when the thread was first posted and being overseas, have not heard any more about it. Looking in today, it's a bit of a shocker how the story has developed.


In a related development ...

Victim of notorious Hither Green burglar family conned out of £60k suffers horrific acid attack in own home


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 3, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> In a related development ...
> 
> Victim of notorious Hither Green burglar family conned out of £60k suffers horrific acid attack in own home



Sick bastards.


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## GarveyLives (Jul 8, 2018)

Although the surviving Hither Green burglary suspect, *Billy Jeeves* has now appeared in court on other matters (also see here), it appears that _he has yet to be charged with any offence_ in relation to the incident at Hither Green in which he is suspected to have been involved.




Still on police bail?​


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## gosub (Jul 8, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Although the surviving Hither Green burglary suspect, *Billy Jeeves* has now appeared in court on other matters (also see here), it appears that _he has yet to be charged with any offence_ in relation to the incident at Hither Green in which he is suspected to have been involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough.  If they do it the way they are the bloke ends up in jail without having to put the old guy in an even more difficult position


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## GarveyLives (Oct 12, 2018)

"A man who was arrested in connection with a failed burglary where an intruder was killed _will face no further action_ ..."

Hither Green burglary: 'Insufficient evidence' to charge man (click for more)


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## extra dry (Oct 13, 2018)

I could say that isn't really the best judgement, however death by misadventure?


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## GarveyLives (Dec 31, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> "A man who was arrested in connection with a failed burglary where an intruder was killed _will face no further action_ ..."
> 
> Hither Green burglary: 'Insufficient evidence' to charge man (click for more)


They were not paying attention to this forum?

_"Former neighbours of Mr Osborne-Brooks, 78, remain angry at his plight and that no-one was ever charged with the raid on his home in Hither Green, South East London ..."_

Richard Osborn-Brooks’ neighbours slam cops for failing to charge accomplice over deadly raid as OAP’s home STILL boarded up eight months on


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## GarveyLives (Feb 12, 2019)

Meanwhile ...

Hither Green OAP ‘receives *NEW* death threats from traveller gang who want to even the score for dead burglar’


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## GarveyLives (Apr 4, 2019)

Cops step up patrols in Hither Green as locals warn stabbed burglar’s family they will tear down vigil if they lay flowers on first anniversary


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## Riklet (Apr 5, 2019)

Shame they're not being allowed to remember their relative, shit anyone dying and all that, but he does sounds like a nasty bit of work who sealed his own fate the moment he pulled out that screwdriver to threaten serious violence with.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 5, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Shame they're not being allowed to remember their relative, shit anyone dying and all that,


 They are not being stopped remembering their relative. They just need to do it elsewhere.


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## andysays (Apr 5, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Shame they're not being allowed to remember their relative, shit anyone dying and all that, but he does sounds like a nasty bit of work who sealed his own fate the moment he pulled out that screwdriver to threaten serious violence with.


They aren't being prevented from remembering though, just from laying flowers near the scene of his death which, given the previous story from Feb 12th, could well be viewed as intimidation.


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## Riklet (Apr 5, 2019)

Ok sure I get that and it's undeniable that some of the family appear to be real shits so that could well be true.

And yeah, I normally support community action in situations like this, clearly people feel theyre doing more than laying a few flowers otherwise there wouldn't be such anger about it, right? Then again, the bloke died in the street, a public space, not that house. Obviously elsewhere would be better though, all things considered.


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## andysays (May 2, 2019)

Inquest has decided it was lawful killing


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## GarveyLives (May 2, 2019)

This appears to be the most detailed currently available account of the inquest proceedings:

Senior Coroner Andrew Harris rules that Henry Vincent was *lawfully* killed


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## Sasaferrato (May 5, 2019)

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I take no pleasure whatsoever in the man's death, no matter how much of a scumbag he was, he had relatives and friends who will be mourning his death.

Go armed into someone's house though, and really, you deserve what you get. Had he not entered the house armed with a screwdriver and intending to steal, he would likely have been still alive.


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## likesfish (May 5, 2019)

This wasn't a case of the householder going death wish on some scrote this was an old man terrified for his life and the life of his wife. 
  The dead man at best can be described as a professional criminal.


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## GarveyLives (Sep 24, 2020)

Some better news for the family of the Late *Henry Vincent*?:

Vincent family sell Hollingbourne farmhouse bought two years ago for £325.000 for £1.5m


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## Doodler (Sep 25, 2020)

GarveyLives said:


> Some better news for the family of the Late *Henry Vincent*?:
> 
> Vincent family sell Hollingbourne farmhouse bought two years ago for £325.000 for £1.5m



The Vincents would become the new ruling class after a nuclear war. Other survivors would become their serfs.


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## existentialist (Sep 25, 2020)

Doodler said:


> The Vincents would become the new ruling class after a nuclear war. Other survivors would become their serfs.


Not for long. They're not clever enough.


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## Doodler (Sep 25, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Not for long. They're not clever enough.



They would get in there very quickly though.  While most other survivors were still in shock the Vincents would be thinking "right then!"


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## Gromit (Sep 25, 2020)

Doodler said:


> The Vincents would become the new ruling class after a nuclear war. Other survivors would become their serfs.


Nope.

There'd be no pensioners for them to prey on. They'd soon starve without weak old people to feed off.


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## Doodler (Sep 25, 2020)

Gromit said:


> Nope.
> 
> There'd be no pensioners for them to prey on. They'd soon starve without weak old people to feed off.



Provided they survived London being MIRVed, the Vincents would find that most of their potential criminal rivals had been vaporised. Survivors would be weak and disoriented.

With London gone, the tribal fiefdom of Vincentia would have to expand eastwards towards north Kent and the Medway towns.


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## existentialist (Sep 25, 2020)

Doodler said:


> Provided they survived London being MIRVed, the Vincents would find that most of their potential criminal rivals had been vaporised. Survivors would be weak and disoriented.
> 
> With London gone, the tribal fiefdom of Vincentia would have to expand eastwards towards north Kent and the Medway towns.


Remember, these aren't clever criminals. They're scammers, fraudsters, bullies, and thieves, the kind of people whose idea of a good crime is a bit of aggravated burglary. There are far better criminals out there who are a lot further up the food chain than that collection of pond life. They wouldn't stand a chance.


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## Doodler (Sep 25, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Remember, these aren't clever criminals. They're scammers, fraudsters, bullies, and thieves, the kind of people whose idea of a good crime is a bit of aggravated burglary. There are far better criminals out there who are a lot further up the food chain than that collection of pond life. They wouldn't stand a chance.



Their low cunning and numbers would be sufficient to seize and defend the Hoo Peninsula. Slave labour and goods looted from the Bluewater shopping centre and the Gravesend branch of Wickes would construct a gaudy, ramshackle manor house for them. Raiding parties would be sent to the Isle of Sheppey but with their eyes on a greater long-term prize: Whitstable.


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## Gromit (Sep 25, 2020)

Doodler said:


> Their low cunning and numbers would be sufficient to seize and defend the Hoo Peninsula, making it their redoubt from which they could send raiding parties to the Isle of Sheppey but with their eyes on a greater prize: Whitstable.


They'd be more likely to buy (with menaces) the Isle of Dogs for 2 goats and sell it on later for 6 cows (even though they've let the place go to the dogs).


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