# Fascist attack on SWP in Lewisham



## dynamicbaddog (Apr 29, 2012)

Sounds quite nasty, 2 men attacked both requiring hospital treatment
http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fascist-attack-in-lewisham-today.html


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## articul8 (Apr 29, 2012)

Nice to see the master race demonstrating their superiority by punching a pensioner  in a "gang" of two.  Must take guts that.


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## Onket (Apr 29, 2012)

What the fuck were all those other people saying they were there too up to? Standing by and letting it happen?


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## manny-p (Apr 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> What the fuck were all those other people saying they were there too up to? Standing by and letting it happen?


Some people are useless in altercations of the violent kind.


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## HST (Apr 29, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Some people are useless in altercations of the violent kind.


Most of us had our last fight in the playground. Violence can happen, and be over, very quickly. People take time to react.


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## manny-p (Apr 29, 2012)

HST said:


> Most of us had our last fight in the playground. Violence can happen, and be over, very quickly. People take time to react.


That's nothing to be ashamed of. But its always handy to know some self defence techniques/skills for situations such as this. The scum will gain confidence from this.


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## articul8 (Apr 29, 2012)

Seems like the SWP failed to watch the backs of their comrades - if they expect people to man a stall in the presence of a menacing group of far right supporters, near where you've called an anti-fascist assembly, they should at least provide them with some back up.

(Presumably their leaders think this kind of thing is good publicity?)


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## teqniq (Apr 29, 2012)

So what about the OB? It says in that article that the stall was opposite Lewisham nick, but no sign of them, not even after the attack when you'd think maybe they'd be taking statements or something. I know it's very easy to slate them but still...


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

teqniq said:


> So what about the OB? It says in that article that the stall was opposite Lewisham nick, but no sign of them, not even after the attack when you'd think maybe they'd be taking statements or something. I know it's very easy to slate them but still...


 
Same old story. Coppers absent when the far right are putting the boot in.


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## Red Storm (Apr 29, 2012)

teqniq said:


> So what about the OB? It says in that article that the stall was opposite Lewisham nick, but no sign of them, not even after the attack when you'd think maybe they'd be taking statements or something. I know it's very easy to slate them but still...


 
The SWP should be able to defend themselves without requiring the police.


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## teqniq (Apr 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The SWP should be able to defend themselves without requiring the police.


Fair enough, but the OB were rather conspicuous by their absence it would seem.


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## Red Storm (Apr 29, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Fair enough, but the OB were rather conspicuous by their absence it would seem.


 
I personally think they hate the SWP as much as they hate the EDL. 

Could be a number of reasons why they didn't turn up.


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Same old story. Coppers absent when the far right are putting the boot in.


 
Are you saying this is not a coincidence?


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## _angel_ (Apr 29, 2012)

a pasty faced woman with dyed black hair and an eyebrow piercing


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Sounds quite nasty, 2 men attacked both requiring hospital treatment
> http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fascist-attack-in-lewisham-today.html
> 
> 
> can someone amend spelling mistake in the title please?


 
anti fascism as snobbery



> - a pasty faced woman with dyed black hair and an eyebrow piercing


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 29, 2012)

Chavs.


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## HST (Apr 29, 2012)

manny-p said:


> That's nothing to be ashamed of. But its always handy to know some self defence techniques/skills for situations such as this. The scum will gain confidence from this.


Agreed. Seems we've been here before - I know I have.


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## HST (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> anti fascism as snobbery


The spelling mistake or the description of the fascist spotter?


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 29, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> a pasty faced woman with dyed black hair and an eyebrow piercing


 
Oh, hello Lusty.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Are you saying this is not a coincidence?


 
I'm saying that the history of British racism/fascism is riddled with instances of police "non-availability" similar to what is mentioned above, so I'm not sure that the label "coincidence" is an apt one.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I personally think they hate the SWP as much as they hate the EDL.
> 
> Could be a number of reasons why they didn't turn up.


 
Tradition, for example.


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## ddraig (Apr 29, 2012)

probably take the pigs at least 10mins to get out of their fortress even if they gave a shit


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm saying that the history of British racism/fascism is riddled with instances of police "non-availability" similar to what is mentioned above, so I'm not sure that the label "coincidence" is an apt one.


 
Actually the history of British fascism has been more of a  three cornered fight between anti fascists, fascists and police. Next Saturday the area where the stalls are will be crawling with Johnny Law.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Actually the history of British fascism has been more of a three cornered fight between anti fascists, fascists and police.


 
Usually with the police as the late arrival to the party, and on the side of the fascists or, when necessary, pretending to be neutral.



> Next Saturday the area where the stalls are will be crawling with Johnny Law.


Which is all well and good, but doesn't explain or excuse their absence *this* saturday.


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Usually with the police as the late arrival to the party, and on the side of the fascists or, when necessary, pretending to be neutral.
> 
> 
> Which is all well and good, but doesn't explain or excuse their absence *this* saturday.


 

Not even sure if that is the case  these days,. If it wasn't for the Police  the anti fascist would have had a serious problem  in Manchester when it was the first EDL demo.

There is a pub that I nearly got stabbed in up here that is next door to a police station and you never see the Police there either.


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## Transpontine (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> anti fascism as snobbery


 

As the author of that piece can I just be clear that I don't have a problem with eyebrow piercing or Paul's Boutique - the description is included  simply because it might help the victims identify their attackers, not to make any snobby point about EDL dress codes.​ 
I am personally very critical of the 'anti-Chav' tone of some anti-EDL discourse. The problem isn't that there are too many 'chavs'  in the EDL - it's that there aren't enough 'chavs' on the 'left'​​


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> As the author of that piece can I just be clear that I don't have a problem with eyebrow piercing or Paul's Boutique - the description is included simply because it might help the victims identify their attackers, not to make any snobby point about EDL dress codes.​
> I am personally very critical of the 'anti-Chav' tone of some anti-EDL discourse. The problem isn't that there are too many 'chavs' in the EDL - it's that there aren't enough 'chavs' on the 'left'​​


 
Totally unconvincing to think that 'pasty faced' would help either identify the attackers or change the composition of the left.


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## Deareg (Apr 29, 2012)

I thought the witness was describing that horrible bastard who fell off the bus in Tower Hamlets a few months ago?


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## HST (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Totally unconvincing to think that 'pasty faced' would help either identify the attackers or change the composition of the left.


 get over yourself. "pasty faced" is relevant as is "tanned" or "tattooed".


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## peterkro (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Totally unconvincing to think that 'pasty faced' would help either identify the attackers or change the composition of the left.


You ever had a physical description written down by Police.No fucking earlobes,the bastards,caused me concern for days.


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Totally unconvincing to think that 'pasty faced' would help either identify the attackers or change the composition of the left.


 
Wasn't this cunt was it?


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

HST said:


> get over yourself. "pasty faced" is relevant as is "tanned" or "tattooed".


 
Ill fitting suits ?


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## Transpontine (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Totally unconvincing to think that 'pasty faced' would help either identify the attackers or change the composition of the left.


 
I don't think 'pasty faced' has any particular snobbish connotations does it? In my family we have always said that someone 'looks a bit pasty' to mean very pale faced in a slightly unhealthy way (and on my Scottish side of the family that would include most of my relatives). That's all it means to me, as opposed to say tanned.

Taken with the other information (hair, jewellery, clothes), and the exact location, I think it would be enough information to be able to identify this person.

And no, it wasn't the woman on the bus in Tower Hamlets.


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## Red Storm (Apr 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Actually the history of British fascism has been more of a three cornered fight between anti fascists, fascists and police. Next Saturday the area where the stalls are will be crawling with Johnny Law.


 
From my experience regarding the EDL the police seem to hate them more than the left, in general.

I get the feeling they see them as nothing more than football hooligans. The policing used against the EDL has always been much more draconian than against the left.

The Manchester EDL demo is a prime example. They surrounded them the EDL with dogs whilst used police to kettle the anti-fascists.


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## killer b (Apr 29, 2012)

'pasty faced' is pure dog-whistle. You may as well have called her a whey-faced harridan.


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## elfman (Apr 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> From my experience regarding the EDL the police seem to hate them more than the left, in general.
> 
> I get the feeling they see them as nothing more than football hooligans. The policing used against the EDL has always been much more draconian than against the left.
> 
> The Manchester EDL demo is a prime example. They surrounded them the EDL with dogs whilst used police to kettle the anti-fascists.


 
My experience around West Yorks is the same and it will probably be same in most places outside of London I think.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 29, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> I don't think 'pasty faced' has any particular snobbish connotations does it? In my family we have always said that someone 'looks a bit pasty' to mean very pale faced in a slightly unhealthy way (and on my Scottish side of the family that would include most of my relatives). That's all it means to me, as opposed to say tanned.
> 
> Taken with the other information (hair, jewellery, clothes), and the exact location, I think it would be enough information to be able to identify this person.
> 
> And no, it wasn't the woman on the bus in Tower Hamlets.


 
Peely wally.


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## HST (Apr 29, 2012)

peterkro said:


> You ever had a physical description written down by Police.No fucking earlobes,the bastards,caused me concern for days.


I had "dirty teeth"


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> From my experience regarding the EDL the police seem to hate them more than the left, in general.
> 
> I get the feeling they see them as nothing more than football hooligans. The policing used against the EDL has always been much more draconian than against the left.
> 
> The Manchester EDL demo is a prime example. They surrounded them the EDL with dogs whilst used police to kettle the anti-fascists.


 
I was thinking that as well.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

im proud to be pasty faced! anyway, red storm regarding plod and EDL, the 2 things the cops hate most are 'lively demos' and pissed soccer team supporters. with the edl they get both and this makes them very nervous. at all the EDL demos ive been on the cops have acted very nervously and been aggressive to both sides. and it looks like they were last week at brighton with their pepper sprays and batons.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 29, 2012)

Using the phrase pasty face did come across as snobby in my view, even if it wasn't meant that way.

More to the point though I think it's a bit fucked up that some people on this thread chose to focus on that phrase rather than the fact a pensioner has been beaten up by fascists. Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

im surprised bignose aint got on to this but surely a pun regarding the mispelt 'facist' and blatantly facist atittudes about us 'pasty faces' is in order?


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)




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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I thought the witness was describing that horrible bastard who fell off the bus in Tower Hamlets a few months ago?


that was joanne 'bus stop pole dancer' dickens who we reported as getting a kick up the drainpipe and then her notts colleagues were all nicked on the triumphant tower hamlets victory. i lost the link but someone had said she done a wee as well. so pissy and pasty! (almost as bad as the SDL member who pissed himself on the last demo and moaned to plod!).


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)




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## Transpontine (Apr 29, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> im proud to be pasty faced!


 
Well I never said there was anything wrong with being pasty faced, but to appease those who think it has particular connotations I have amended the original post so it now says this:

'there was a very obvious group of about 10 -15 fascists standing by Lewisham Food Market and closely watching what was going on at the Clock Tower. They had scouts posted on corners nearby presumably looking out for signs of the cavalcade. I got a good look at one of them as she came away from the group and stood at the bottom of Lee High Road  - a woman with dyed black hair, pale skin and an eyebrow piercing, wearing a black Paul's Boutique coat with a yellow cancer charity daffodil, probably about 5 foot six.  I think the rest were all blokes, mostly in their 20s or younger with various rain gear including at least one big umbrella [can I just be clear that I don't have a problem with eyebrow piercing or Paul's Boutique - the description is included because it might help the victims identify their attackers, not to make any snobby point about EDL dress codes]'.

As for whether they were EDL or not, I'm not sure how meaningful that is - I think what you have is a loose bunch of right wing wannabe fighters who may operate under various flags of convenience without necessarily identifying with any one particular organisation.

I note on twitter that some EDL types are mocking the 'claim' that one of the two people attacked was a pensioner. I was talking to the two people concerned shortly before the attack, and one of them is definitely well into his 60s or maybe older. Another eye witness quoted on twitter helped him get up off the ground where he had been knocked down.


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> Well I never said there was anything wrong with being pasty faced, but to appease those who think it has particular connotations I have amended the original post so it now says this:
> 
> 'there was a very obvious group of about 10 -15 fascists standing by Lewisham Food Market and closely watching what was going on at the Clock Tower. They had scouts posted on corners nearby presumably looking out for signs of the cavalcade. I got a good look at one of them as she came away from the group and stood at the bottom of Lee High Road - a woman with dyed black hair, pale skin and an eyebrow piercing, wearing a black Paul's Boutique coat with a yellow cancer charity daffodil, probably about 5 foot six. I think the rest were all blokes, mostly in their 20s or younger with various rain gear including at least one big umbrella [can I just be clear that I don't have a problem with eyebrow piercing or Paul's Boutique - the description is included because it might help the victims identify their attackers, not to make any snobby point about EDL dress codes]'.
> 
> ...


 
Cheers Transpontine.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 29, 2012)

What's a facist??


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> What's a facist??


spanks, it is someone who makes facially prejudiced remarks. PROUD TO BE PASTY!


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## revlon (Apr 29, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> What's a facist??


 
a factory records obsessive


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)

Whoop there it is... Best thing about these fuckwits is they cant keep quiet they need to boast about it.


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## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2012)

Nice find Bob


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## Transpontine (Apr 29, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Whoop there it is... Best thing about these fuckwits is they cant keep quiet they need to boast about it.


 
I can see that's facebook but where from? Is it an EDL page or something ? What makes you think this has anything to do with Lewisham?


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## ddraig (Apr 29, 2012)

probably the crowing, south london and millwall references
cunts


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 29, 2012)

dynamicbaddog said:


> can someone amend spelling mistake in the title please?


Only just seen it. Next time just PM me.


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## Mr Smin (Apr 29, 2012)

HST said:


> I had "dirty teeth"


My mate got "unkempt". He was mortified.


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> I can see that's facebook but where from? Is it an EDL page or something ? What makes you think this has anything to do with Lewisham?


 
The clues are in the previous Twitter shots.


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## fogbat (Apr 29, 2012)

Mr Smin said:


> My mate got "unkempt". He was mortified.


"Stocky build"


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## rekil (Apr 29, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Whoop there it is... Best thing about these fuckwits is they cant keep quiet they need to boast about it.


There's a 'Donna Young' here going for Millwall Lioness something or other. And Mr. 'David Millwall Smith' is on there as well.


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## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2012)

copliker said:


> There's a 'Donna Young' here going for Millwall Lioness something or other. And Mr. 'David Millwall Smith' is on there as well.


 
"i was born and bread millwall​"


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)

copliker said:


> There's a 'Donna Young' here going for Millwall Lioness something or other. And Mr. 'David Millwall Smith' is on there as well.


 

Serious question whats your view on the English Defence League. 
Saving my country


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## rekil (Apr 29, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Serious question whats your view on the English Defence League.
> Saving my country


 
Can't see. I'm not on facebook.

Oh right, she says


> my fav player is at the mo is dunne


Alan Dunne - a fackin immigrant from paddyland.

Her myspace is here.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

Mr Smin said:


> My mate got "unkempt". He was mortified.


 
i got 'mauve hair, leggings [?] and pink socks' in one coppers notes!


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)

copliker said:


> Can't see. I'm not on facebook.
> 
> Oh right, she says
> 
> ...


 
Cheers, but who the fuck uses Myspace anymore?


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## rekil (Apr 29, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Cheers, but who the fuck uses Myspace anymore?


Dunno, just wanted to see if there's any other stuff on her. Her school is there and she's friends with 'EDL' who turn out to be a pants division sub RATM band.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 29, 2012)

They are hardly going to build the fourth reich by bashing elderly swappies are they? There will be no glorious reception in valhalla for the beating up of a pair of people who were engaged in selling the paper of a politically minor group.

pointless yobbery. Still, with this sort of action it unmasks the veneer of 'simply anti-extremist' and 'anti funumental islam'. Again.

I wish all concerned a speedy recovery.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

from edl watch:
http://twitpic.com/9f98zj
the fragrant ms marsh is one of 'marshy's angles' and is either the sister or wife or both of jeffrey 'stabber' marsh of casuals united. apparently our pasty faced miss was actually a milwall lad!


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)

Oi, read the thread.... lol


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## JHE (Apr 29, 2012)

Nasty thuggery in Lewisham

Is it true, as alleged, that SWPers engaged in nasty thuggery in Brighton recently?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2012)

JHE said:


> Nasty thuggery in Lewisham
> 
> Is it true, as alleged, that SWPers engaged in nasty thuggery in Brighton recently?


perhaps you could expand on what 'swpers engaged in nasty thuggery in brighton' has to do with a 75 year old getting headbutted in south london.

ime the swp are more likely to engage in a debate rather than a full and frank discussion.


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## Ranbay (Apr 29, 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/millwalldonna

Shut he page down now.... wonder why?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 29, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Cheers, but who the fuck uses Myspace anymore?


 


> *lioness has 7 friends*


 
All the most importantest people in the whole wide world ever. Clearly, she is a force to be reckoned with.


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## ddraig (Apr 29, 2012)

JHE said:


> Nasty thuggery in Lewisham
> 
> Is it true, as alleged, that SWPers engaged in nasty thuggery in Brighton recently?


why don't you go look at the reports pics and vids from last week and come back with any proof you can find...


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## barney_pig (Apr 29, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> ​
> I am personally very critical of the 'anti-Chav' tone of some anti-EDL discourse. The problem isn't that there are too many 'chavs' in the EDL - it's that there aren't enough 'chavs' on the 'left'​​


the red party was described on leftist trainspotters as a chav group led by someone called darren


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## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> the red party was described on leftist trainspotters as a chav group led by someone called darren


I think I met this "darren" once in a wetherspoons


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## HST (Apr 29, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Cheers, but who the fuck uses Myspace anymore?


Very fetching photo of her there.
http://www.myspace.com/574088686


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## Onket (Apr 29, 2012)

What happened in Brighton, then?


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> What happened in Brighton, then?


 
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/march-for-enger-land-total-flop/


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## Onket (Apr 29, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/march-for-enger-land-total-flop/


 
I see. Good work.

Bit odd that the 'revenge' is headbutting a pensioner in Lewisham.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

yeah well the future of our white children are at stake so watch out grandad, its all your fault!


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## ddraig (Apr 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> I see. Good work.
> 
> Bit odd that the 'revenge' is headbutting a pensioner in Lewisham.


yup
not odd for coward racist cunts tho


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 29, 2012)

What sort of fucking idiot takes children to an EDL demo?


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## Onket (Apr 29, 2012)

fogbat said:


> "Stocky build"


 
"Heavy set and balding"


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## cantsin (Apr 29, 2012)

JHE said:


> Nasty thuggery in Lewisham
> 
> Is it true, as alleged, that SWPers engaged in nasty thuggery in Brighton recently?


 
what do you think / know ?


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## Transpontine (Apr 29, 2012)

A couple of people now criticising UAF tactics in Lewisham in the comments here: http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fascist-attack-in-lewisham-today.html 

gist is that they should have been more security-canny - what do people think? Don't want to shift blame from those carrying out attacks, but there are some implications for future tactics, as one of the commenters points out.


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## Red Storm (Apr 29, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> A couple of people now criticising UAF tactics in Lewisham in the comments here: http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fascist-attack-in-lewisham-today.html
> 
> gist is that they should have been more security-canny - what do people think? Don't want to shift blame from those carrying out attacks, but there are some implications for future tactics, as one of the commenters points out.


 

I suppose attacks haven't been that regular so the SWP could be let off.

As they say: if it happens again in Lewisham shame on the SWP


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## ddraig (Apr 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> I see. Good work.
> 
> Bit odd that the 'revenge' is headbutting a pensioner in Lewisham.


also this thread about Brighton with Bishie's pics
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/march-for-england-brighton-22nd-of-april.290886/


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## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2012)

.


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## Transpontine (Apr 30, 2012)

Lewisham Anti Racist Action Group has now issued a press release with more detail:
*Pensioners Attacked by Racists In Lewisham press release 29/4/12*
 Two local  anti-racist pensioners  were viciously attacked and hospitalised  this Saturday by racist thugs who said they were part of a group known as ‘March For England’/    which is  very closely linked to English Defence League (EDL) and the BNP. Andy Smith, a retired teacher and active in Lewisham Pensioners’ Forum and the NUT was viciously attacked as well as another local pensioner.
The attack appears to be in response  to a planned Unite Against  Fascism event  across south London  whose aim was to  discourage  people from voting for  or supporting far-right racist parties in the forthcoming London assembly elections.  It  follows  the humiliation they received in last week’s ‘March For England’ Brighton demonstration where 1000 anti-racists succeeded  in reducing the far-right march to a miserable and defeated mob.
The attack happened during a busy Saturday on Lewisham High Street whilst manning a regular campaign stall, one that has been active for over thirty years in Lewisham and an integral part of the local community. Shortly after 12pm the stall was thrown to the floor by an individual loitering in the area and according to witnesses, already there waiting for the local activists to arrive.
A group , taking photographs and staring menacingly at the activists started to gather near the clock tower. Before too long, they passed the stall en masse at which point an altercation began, with shouts and heckling from the racist group. In response to Islamophobic statements one pensioner, approached them and received a vicious head-butt as an answer, throwing him to the ground . Another pensioner  intervened and was quickly surrounded, man-handled and flung to the floor receiving a knock to the head. Both had to receive medical treatment for their injuries.
Earlier in the morning a photographer  was also attacked by the same group of racists and had reported the attack to Lewisham police station.
*Sabby Dhalu, Unite Against Fascism Joint Secretary said:*
This vicious, cowardly attack by fascists on anti-racist pensioners, illustrates why we must all campaign against fascism. The police must take action and immediately arrest and charge the perpetrators of this vile attack. We urge everyone to use their vote on Thursday 3 May and stop fascist and racist groups like the British National Party, English Democrats and National Front from getting elected; and join the peaceful demonstration against the English Defence League organised by We Are Luton and Unite Against Fascism."    
http://uaf.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/EDLfactsheet1.pdf
*Jarman Parmar Chair of LARAG says*: "The actions of these racist attackers is shocking and strengthens our resolve to unite everyone who opposes these kind of behaviours and ideas which have no place in our society. Those who have the vote should make it count by voting against the British National Party and help stop the far right on 3 May.  We all want to create and live in a society  where there is no hate and no fear on racial and ethnic grounds.
*Weyman Bennett joint national secretary of Unite against Fascism* said:
“Groups of Nazis tried to disrupt UAF members from leafleting on Saturday. We will not be intimidated. The BNP and EDL are desperate because they are not getting any real support so resorted to terror attacks. “
* Press release ends*


----------



## past caring (Apr 30, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> A couple of people now criticising UAF tactics in Lewisham in the comments here: http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fascist-attack-in-lewisham-today.html
> 
> gist is that they should have been more security-canny - what do people think? Don't want to shift blame from those carrying out attacks, but there are some implications for future tactics, as one of the commenters points out.


 


Red Storm said:


> I suppose attacks haven't been that regular so the SWP could be let off.
> 
> As they say: if it happens again in Lewisham shame on the SWP


 
Whilst there's a large element of truth in that, it's also the case that the SWP have an extremely poor record of defending their own members or of organising even minimal levels of security - even in circumstances where they have come under sustained attacks from the far right. From personal experience, I know the leadership/organisers have even gone so far as to deny/cover-up the fact that attacks have happened, simply for the reason that the alternative - organising some sort of response - was in their eyes worse.

That said, this will probably turn out to be a one off/bit of opportunism - the EDL haven't the capability of organising this kind of thing on any sustained basis, in my view.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

past caring said:


> Whilst there's a large element of truth in that, it's also the case that the SWP have an extremely poor record of defending their own members or of organising even minimal levels of security - even in circumstances where they have come under sustained attacks from the far right. From personal experience, I know the leadership/organisers have even gone so far as to deny/cover-up the fact that attacks have happened, simply for the reason that the alternative - organising some sort of response - was in their eyes worse.
> 
> That said, this will probably turn out to be a one off/bit of opportunism - the EDL haven't the capability of organising this kind of thing on any sustained basis, in my view.


 
I agree on both points.


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## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

SWP members need to realise their bosses in the central committee will never endorse the use of effective security. It would be naive to think this is a one off incident.

Members themselves will need to do this from the ground up and out of the sight of their hierarchy.


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## past caring (Apr 30, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> It would be naive to think this is a one off incident.


 
Why? I am not suggesting, btw, that EDL members elsewhere may not occasionally engage in similar opportunism - but what is the evidence to suggest that they'd be capable of initiating an organised/sustained campaign of such attacks?


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## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

past caring said:


> Why? I am not suggesting, btw, that EDL members elsewhere may not occasionally engage in similar opportunism - but what is the evidence to suggest that they'd be capable of initiating an organised/sustained campaign of such attacks?


 
I wouldn't expect it to be organised more than between small local groups but there's obviously desire for more of this sort of action.


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## past caring (Apr 30, 2012)

I desire all sorts of things - my ability to achieve them, however, is limited by facts on the ground. What makes you think that even small local groups would not come a cropper if trying to pull this kind of thing off on a sustained basis?


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## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

past caring said:


> I desire all sorts of things - my ability to achieve them, however, is limited by facts on the ground. What makes you think that even small local groups would not come a cropper if trying to pull this kind of thing off on a sustained basis?


 
Small bands of fucknuts can do opportunistic hits on sitting swappie ducks a piece of piss.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Small bands of fucknuts can do opportunistic hits on sitting swappie ducks a piece of piss.


 
Why haven't they been doing it every weekend in every city for the past 18 months then?


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## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Why haven't they been doing it every weekend in every city for the past 18 months then?


 
Why do you think that?


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Why do you think that?


 
Because they haven't


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## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

But why?


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## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> But why?


Lack of significantly committed membership (physically, ideologically etc) with a network to enable such sustained attacks and support those prepared to engage in them - pre and post attack. You know, what was suggested above as to why this probably doesn't indicate the start of such a program really.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> But why?


 
Many reasons. They're not organised enough, they don't want legal repercussions, they have better things to do on a Saturday morning, they're not political committed enough to engage in violence.  

Whilst the average EDL member is more than a match for the average Swappy this isn't the whole picture. The fact is that they aren't highly organised at a local level, thus, can't attack the SWP every weekend. I also don't think the EDL _wants_ to smash the SWP off the streets, it hasn't been their political strategy largely because they don't seem to have a political strategy.


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## Ranbay (Apr 30, 2012)

This was a revenge attack for last weeks made up story of some kid getting hit with a bottle at MFE in Brighton.


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## bignose1 (Apr 30, 2012)

This could be the begining of a two tier approach within the EDL(generic) 'ranks'. Ive had it on good authority that the big away days for some in the EDL hierarchy are becoming a bit of a liability. Of course the street activity will continue but there are elements who want to take it to the left/antis. The decision to get on board with the BFP by some of th EDL leadership hasnt gone down that well with some in the movement but there has been a nod and a wink to say dont worry were still 'street'..carry on. Ive a feeling this incident may be tied, emotionally to what happened in Brighton but the left have been targetted recently ie in Liverpool earlier in the year...so the left can be considered legitimate targets. The defection of elements of Liverpool BNP ie the Tierneys to the NF means that they have been given a gloves off green light to go on the attack/assault without fear of censure from within their own ranks. The NF getting into the fray with the EDL more so recently may have added to the mix. I know Im pretty old school about this considering my own personal background...but the template is there....


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## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2012)

You've touched on something i was going to post about on the BNP thread - the possibility of the _newly resurgent_ NF (well a good crowd of candidates anyway) attempting to put down some sort of serious marker now that things seem to be a bit up in the air.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 30, 2012)

The lewisham thing was seen as ‘revenge’ and the girl who was crowing has gone to ground. The SWP need to be aware of this situation. It happened last year in oldham and i think manchester or somewhere like that. It is opportunism rather than mass organisation. With mr tommy officially signing up to the fluffy fascist British freedom then the EDL are going to have to take it down a notch as it is going to be politically undesirable to be aligned to a bunch of violent, pissed up soccer teams fans!


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> This could be the beginings of a two tier approach within the EDL(generic) 'ranks'. Ive had it on good authority that the big away days for some in the EDL hierarchy are becoming a bit of a liability. Of course the street activity will continue but there are elements who want to take it to the left/antis. The decision to get on board withthe BFP by some of th EDL leadership hasnt gone down that well with some in the movement but there has been a nod and a wink to say dont worry were still 'street'..carry on. Ive a feeling this incident may be tied, emotionally to what happened in Brighton but the left have been targetted recently ie Liverpool earlier in the year...so the left will be considered legitimate targets. The defection of elements of Liverpool BNP such like the Tierneys to the NF means that they have been given a gloves off green light to go on the attackm without fear of censure from their own. The NF getting into the fray recently may have added to the mix.


 
I don't think the Liverpool BNP defection to the NF will change much. Liverpool BNP was largely autonomous for a while. Also, the Tierneys weren't really doing much physical stuff anyway. Liverpool NF has seemed to have grouped all the neo-Nazis there like Pinkham etc into one grouping but Pinkham would have been doing what ever he wanted in the NF or out of the NF.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> You've touched on something i was going to post about on the BNP thread - the possibility of the _newly resurgent_ NF (well a good crowd of candidates anyway) attempting to put down some sort of serious marker now that things seem to be a bit up in the air.


 
I'm not convinced. 

They've had a boost with the defection of Liverpool BNP and the Infidels split in the EDL. 

But they've not got the brand name of the BNP and are too white power to do well in elections. I don't think they've got the numbers or the will to engage in street activity.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 30, 2012)

also dunno if you saw the bbc online  thing with carlos cortiglia (bnp mayor) just now going in his clearly un-english accent - 'there are too many immigrants!' check yr passport mate!


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## malatesta32 (Apr 30, 2012)

NF have a couple of stronholds but not like the BNPs infrastructure or cash etc. dont forget the fluffies, EDs UkIP etc are all guaranteed vote stealers.


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## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I'm not convinced.
> 
> They've had a boost with the defection of Liverpool BNP and the Infidels split in the EDL.
> 
> But they've not got the brand name of the BNP and are too white power to do well in elections. I don't think they've got the numbers or the will to engage in street activity.


They're irrelevant electorally, it's all over on that front. However, recent momentum would suggest to me some pathetic desperate stunt to try and keep the ball rolling would/should be on the cards. Not 'war' as they are not capable of that, but a few isolated thingsto get their name back in the headlines (and i think you may well be underestimating the residual power of their brand name). The real danger with this would be the BNP people still attracted to the race angle pressuring their leadership to keep pace at a time when griffin is scrambling around to find ways to gather committed people around him. This, of course, would go against the last 15 years of BNP development, but desperate people...


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## fiannanahalba (Apr 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't think the Liverpool BNP defection to the NF will change much. Liverpool BNP was largely autonomous for a while. Also, the Tierneys weren't really doing much physical stuff anyway. Liverpool NF has seemed to have grouped all the neo-Nazis there like Pinkham etc into one grouping but Pinkham would have been doing what ever he wanted in the NF or out of the NF.


After Saturday and the Liverpool Antifascists taking it to Tierney's door with a successful picket on his shop, we shall see if the Liverpool fascists want to or can counter as they promised they would if Liverpool Anti fascists did this.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> They're irrelevant electorally, it's all over on that front. However, recent momentum would suggest to me some pathetic desperate stunt to try and keep the ball rolling would/should be on the cards. Not 'war' as they are not capable of that, but a few isolated thingsto get their name back in the headlines (and i think you may well be underestimating the residual power of their brand name). The real danger with this would be the BNP people still attracted to the race angle pressuring their leadership to keep pace at a time when griffin is scrambling around to find ways to gather committed people around him. This, of course, would go against the last 15 years of BNP development, but desperate people...


 
I hear ya. I could imagine a few isolated things. 

Seems like the BNP could be leaking radicals to the NF and those wanting a cleaner image to the English Dems.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

fiannanahalba said:


> After Saturday and the Liverpool Antifascists taking it to Tierney's door with a successful picket on his shop, we shall see if the Liverpool fascists want to or can counter as they promised they would if Liverpool Anti fascists did this.


 
That was a good action by LiverAF. Should have been done ages ago but it was good to see it happen.


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## fiannanahalba (Apr 30, 2012)

This was opportune for two reasons. Liverpool Anti fascists are robust enough now and the Mayoral election with Tierney as NF candidate means it gains more publicity.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

fiannanahalba said:


> This was opportune for two reasons. Liverpool Anti fascists are robust enough now and the Mayoral election with Tierney as NF candidate means it gains more publicity.


 
Good to hear an improvement in LiverAF's abilities.


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## bignose1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't think the Liverpool BNP defection to the NF will change much. Liverpool BNP was largely autonomous for a while. Also, the Tierneys weren't really doing much physical stuff anyway. Liverpool NF has seemed to have grouped all the neo-Nazis there like Pinkham etc into one grouping but Pinkham would have been doing what ever he wanted in the NF or out of the NF.


Im not saying they were doing the physical stuff but certainly an immense amount of  targetting. The defection to the NF will have an impact..albeit hard to quantify just yet. They got the shove partly bvecause of their associations with others deemed out of bounds...


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## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Lack of significantly committed membership (physically, ideologically etc) with a network to enable such sustained attacks and support those prepared to engage in them - pre and post attack. You know, what was suggested above as to why this probably doesn't indicate the start of such a program really.


 
They seem to be completely unwilling to do their homework. For instance on a strike day recently threats were given that the EDL were going to cause issues at the rally in town. Nothing came of it during the day. Later in the evening we found and followed a group of about 30 EDL. They left one pub and started to head towards a pub with a well advertised post strike Love Music Hate Racism gig on, chanting their delightful EDL ditties along the way. We called ahead to the LMHR lot to give them the heads up. The EDL occupied the pub directly opposite the gig. We joined the trots and prepared ourselves for a shoeing as we were completely out gunned. After an hour the EDL came out onto the street and it looked like it was going to kick off until they turned and headed back into town. They had no idea what was sitting in front of them. They hadn't bothered to do the simplest bit of research. All they did was do a bit of posturing before the strike and some swaggering around town on the night. I'm confident that if they had an inkling of what was going on over the road they would been there with bells on.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 30, 2012)

youre right doctor! they refer to cameron as a marxist and indeed everyone who dislikes them. they have no idea what it means. they also think uaf, trades councils, muslim youth, locals and militant antifash are all the same. when there is a massive difference. they are politically naive and use politics as a substitute for soccer violence. they were bleating about attacking the big TU march until it was pointed out that this is about jobs, public sector etc then they went oh ... really? eejits.


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## past caring (Apr 30, 2012)

@ DrRingRing - Which supports the point I was making, rather than detracting from it.


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## emanymton (Apr 30, 2012)

past caring said:


> Whilst there's a large element of truth in that, it's also the case that the SWP have an extremely poor record of defending their own members or of organising even minimal levels of security - even in circumstances where they have come under sustained attacks from the far right. From personal experience, I know the leadership/organisers have even gone so far as to deny/cover-up the fact that attacks have happened, simply for the reason that the alternative - organising some sort of response - was in their eyes worse.
> 
> That said, this will probably turn out to be a one off/bit of opportunism - the EDL haven't the capability of organising this kind of thing on any sustained basis, in my view.


Well Martin Smith Tweeted about it so no cover up this time, but it doesn't surprise that they try to keep it quite in the past.

Some of the SWP really are very stupid/naive when t comes to security, if this was a normal Saturday sale they had been going on for umpteen years with no problems then fair enough, but if I understand correctly this was for the end of an ant-fascist cavalcade? In which case it's common sense to scout the area before setting up your stall isn't it?  I also find myself wondering if it was accidental they there where both pensioners, maybe it was felt that a couple of pensioners would be safer than younger fitter people. I'm not sure if this makes things better or worse. 

I do think it is likely that this is a one off though, I know people in the SWP in strong EDL area and a year or so ago they had to be conscious about security with there Saturday sales, but recently it's been a lot better and they've had no problems.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

fiannanahalba said:


> This was opportune for two reasons. Liverpool Anti fascists are robust enough now and the Mayoral election with Tierney as NF candidate means it gains more publicity.


 
http://www.facebook.com/LiverpoolIrishAntiFascists


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## discokermit (Apr 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> pissed up soccer teams fans!


small point but it's football fans, not "soccer team fans".


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## The39thStep (Apr 30, 2012)

past caring said:


> @ DrRingRing - Which supports the point I was making, rather than detracting from it.


He no listen


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

discokermit said:


> small point but it's football fans, not "soccer team fans".


 
I read soccer comes from As*soc*iation Football and wikipedia says it was an Oxford -er which gave the '*soc'* the 'er'.

So saying soccer is like saying rugger for rugby. 

Is there a vomit emoticon?  These will have to do:


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## co-op (Apr 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I read soccer comes from As*soc*iation Football and wikipedia says it was an Oxford -er which gave the '*soc'* the 'er'.
> 
> So saying soccer is like saying rugger for rugby.
> 
> Is there a vomit emoticon? These will have to do:


 
Aye, they still say "soc" for "society" or "association" in Oxford, so the Drama Society is the "DramSoc" (pronounced sock). "Soccer", i.e. Association rules (i.e. Football Association, set up by Oxbridge) is directly opposed to Rugger, i.e. Rugby rules. It's from the same slang that gives us "brekkers" for breakfast. Edwardian.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2012)

the only people i have ever heard call football soccer haven't been football fans.


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## co-op (Apr 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the only people i have ever heard call football soccer haven't been football fans.


 
And yanks, ozzies, kiwis etc. Oh hang on...


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## Transpontine (Apr 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the only people i have ever heard call football soccer haven't been football fans.


 
Not strictly true - Americans are allowed to use the term 'soccer' as they have that funny version of 'football'.


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## discokermit (May 1, 2012)

there is only one football and that's football.


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## co-op (May 1, 2012)

It's like saying "varsity". Just puts yer teeth on edge.


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## audiotech (May 1, 2012)

As for my experience with the SWP and defence against fascist attacks, some good lads and lasses that you could rely on and there were others (including a couple of working class ex members now I hold in total contempt), who you would turn around in the midst of a ding dong and they would be nowhere to be seen. You can be sure that is the case with most organisations faced with violence. If you're an old age pensioner, you don't stand much of a chance faced with a young thug bent on giving it one. Kudos to one of the pensioners, who it seems went to help the other out.


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## discokermit (May 1, 2012)

past caring said:


> Whilst there's a large element of truth in that, it's also the case that the SWP have an extremely poor record of defending their own members or of organising even minimal levels of security - even in circumstances where they have come under sustained attacks from the far right. From personal experience, I know the leadership/organisers have even gone so far as to deny/cover-up the fact that attacks have happened, simply for the reason that the alternative - organising some sort of response - was in their eyes worse.
> 
> That said, this will probably turn out to be a one off/bit of opportunism - the EDL haven't the capability of organising this kind of thing on any sustained basis, in my view.


so they should organise self defence squads on the off chance of opportunist one offs? you do realise that doesn't really make sense, don't you?

denying attacks? i'm not saying that hasn't happened but i'd like to see some sort of proof. swp inter branch gossip would make it nigh on impossible.

the only time i remember anything happening when i was a member was a paper sale in bloxwich getting hassled. the next week we turned up in numbers and leafletted along with the sale. i don't think they bothered again.


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## audiotech (May 1, 2012)

past caring presents himself sometimes as 'mr tough guy' and is liberal with use of the word "c*nt", usually proceeded with the word "thick". This, probably to demonstrate how "tough" he is and what he believes to be his "superior intelligence". Comes across as a tool to me when in this mode. I'm sure he's a decent fella really and I trust he takes this in the spirit it was meant.


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## HST (May 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> As for my experience with the SWP and defence against fascist attacks, some good lads and lasses that you could rely on and there were others (including a couple of working class ex members I now hold in contempt), who you would turn around in the midst of a ding dong and they would be nowhere to be seen. You can be sure that is the case with most organisations faced with violence. If you're an old age pensioner, you don't stand much of a chance faced with a young thug bent on giving it one. Kudos to one of the pensioners, who it seems went to help the other out.


We need a show of strength in Lewisham next week and other groups should join the SWP on this. I'm not a member of any party but it's time for a bit of left solidarity - how will the fash feel if next week there's not just a SWP presence but a bunch of other groups? People will need to be aware that they may be attacked arriving at or leaving such an action. Travel in groups. Be wary. Be watchful. We have been here before and we've seen them off before. Solidarity.


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## audiotech (May 1, 2012)

Indeed.




> Activist Andrew Smith, 69, was helping man the regular Socialist Worker stall in Lewisham High Street on Saturday at around noon when he was head butted in the face, while his colleague, 67, was punched to the floor.


 






http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/9678991.Pensioner_head_butted_in_extreme_right_wing_thug_attack/


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## rekil (May 1, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Cheers, but who the fuck uses Myspace anymore?





> Donna Young just earned the In The Spotlight badge
> 
> Because your photos are earning quite a bit of attention.


...


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## past caring (May 1, 2012)

discokermit said:


> so they should organise self defence squads on the off chance of opportunist one offs? you do realise that doesn't really make sense, don't you?


 
Where did I say that?



> denying attacks? i'm not saying that hasn't happened but i'd like to see some sort of proof. swp inter branch gossip would make it nigh on impossible.
> 
> the only time i remember anything happening when i was a member was a paper sale in bloxwich getting hassled. the next week we turned up in numbers and leafletted along with the sale. i don't think they bothered again.


 
Big northern lad, worked at the printshop, bad complexion - I worked there too - he got cabbaged by the BNP down Brick Lane at the point the SWP were trying to relaunch the ANL - 91? - 92? Following week, in Surrey Docks when we were supposed to be leafleting and two of us had seen a van load of BNP driving around, the local full timer denied the previous week's attack, accused us of sowing paranoia blah, blah. There were a number of other incidents around the same time, some of which I only became aware of later - precisely because local organisers were told to keep a lid on things.


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## past caring (May 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> past caring presents himself sometimes as 'mr tough guy' and *is liberal with use of the word "c*nt",* usually proceeded with the word "thick". This, probably to demonstrate how "tough" he is and what he believes to be his "superior intelligence". Comes across as a tool to me when in this mode. I'm sure he's a decent fella really and I trust he takes this in the spirit it was meant.


 
Only when I'm speaking to you, cunt.


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## malatesta32 (May 1, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the only people i have ever heard call football soccer haven't been football fans.


you're right on this count. soccer teams are full overpaid soccer players distracting the proletariat and encouraging regionalism and parcohialism. you dont get that with cricket mate!


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## bignose1 (May 1, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> you're right on this count. soccer teams are full overpaid soccer players distracting the proletariat and encouraging regionalism and parcohialism. you dont get that with cricket mate!


Just for today only while Im sulking I will concur on that


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## The39thStep (May 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> past caring presents himself sometimes as 'mr tough guy' and is liberal with use of the word "c*nt", usually proceeded with the word "thick". This, probably to demonstrate how "tough" he is and what he believes to be his "superior intelligence". Comes across as a tool to me when in this mode. I'm sure he's a decent fella really and I trust he takes this in the spirit it was meant.


 
LOL and this from the poster whose glare has been known to cause fash to go weak at the knees and members of militant to recant. Trust you take this in the spirit that its meant lone groover


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## smokedout (May 1, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Some of the SWP really are very stupid/naive when t comes to security, if this was a normal Saturday sale they had been going on for umpteen years with no problems then fair enough, but if I understand correctly this was for the end of an ant-fascist cavalcade? In which case it's common sense to scout the area before setting up your stall isn't it? I also find myself wondering if it was accidental they there where both pensioners, maybe it was felt that a couple of pensioners would be safer than younger fitter people. I'm not sure if this makes things better or worse.


 
was a bit naive, but they are there every saturday more or less


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## Ranbay (May 1, 2012)




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## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


>


 
Unspeakable fucking cowards.


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## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2012)

discokermit said:


> so they should organise self defence squads on the off chance of opportunist one offs? you do realise that doesn't really make sense, don't you?
> 
> denying attacks? i'm not saying that hasn't happened but i'd like to see some sort of proof. swp inter branch gossip would make it nigh on impossible.
> 
> the only time i remember anything happening when i was a member was a paper sale in bloxwich getting hassled. the next week we turned up in numbers and leafletted along with the sale. i don't think they bothered again.


 
Thing is, given Swappie history, which elements of the membership are going to risk getting physical and then have the CC denounce them as "squaddists"?


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## Deareg (May 1, 2012)

past caring said:


> Why? I am not suggesting, btw, that EDL members elsewhere may not occasionally engage in similar opportunism - but what is the evidence to suggest that they'd be capable of initiating an organised/sustained campaign of such attacks?


I don't think it takes a large amount of people, a small determined group can cause a lot of damage.


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## Deareg (May 1, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Unspeakable fucking cowards.


Typical fascists as well.


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## Deareg (May 1, 2012)

discokermit said:


> so they should organise self defence squads on the off chance of opportunist one offs? you do realise that doesn't really make sense, don't you?
> 
> *denying attacks? i'm not saying that hasn't happened but i'd like to see some sort of proof. swp inter branch gossip would make it nigh on impossible.*
> 
> the only time i remember anything happening when i was a member was a paper sale in bloxwich getting hassled. the next week we turned up in numbers and leafletted along with the sale. i don't think they bothered again.


No one can provide proof, but it has happened on many occasions.


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## past caring (May 1, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I don't think it takes a large amount of people, a small determined group can cause a lot of damage.


 
I'd say that you'd need to add commitment, organisational ability and a reasonable degree of intelligence/ability to plan. But that's by the by - so far, they've not even shown much by way of determination.


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## goldenecitrone (May 1, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


>


 Cringeing vermin.


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## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing is, given Swappie history, which elements of the membership are going to risk getting physical and then have the CC denounce them as "squaddists"?


 
I hereby denounce anyone who would denounce someone else for defending their mates from fascists.


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## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I hereby denounce anyone who would denounce someone else for defending their mates from fascists.


 
I can sleep at night now.


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## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I hereby denounce anyone who would denounce someone else for defending their mates from fascists.


 
Why denounce them?

Just lamp them instead.


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## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why denounce them?
> 
> Just lamp them instead.


 
Why denounce anyone?

It never fails to crack me up that these guys think that expulsion from a socialist party is a punishment. I'm gonna get Mrs Frank a denunciation for her birthday.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why denounce anyone?


 
Well, in the party political context, it's all about _pour encourager les autres_, isn't it?



> It never fails to crack me up that these guys think that expulsion from a socialist party is a punishment.


 
It is, if you're a socialist of the same stripe as the party expelling you.



> I'm gonna get Mrs Frank a denunciation for her birthday.


 
She'd probably prefer something less accusatory, to be fair.


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2012)

maybe it's a punishment because a lot of their mates will still be in that party and maybe (or maybe not) being fed a load of shit about the circumstances of the expulsion? and because frequently being involved in parties like that is pretty important in people's lives, it will mean that if they go to demos or other events or groups they will have to see people who expelled them? you don't have to agree with the SWPs ideology to understand why someone might be pissed off by being expelled do you?


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## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> you don't have to agree with the SWPs ideology to understand why someone might be pissed off by being expelled do you?


 
No, but I am not going to be overly sympathetic to the victims of these denunciations. If they don't like the idea of being denounced they should either toe the line or, better still, refrain from joining an organisation who thinks that the expulsion of dissenting voices is a sensible approach to reasoned debate. 

If I join the Russian Roulette Club I can't really complain when my enjoyment of their wide range of social activities is cut short by my getting shot in the head. Because shooting people in the head is what the Russian Roulette Club is all about.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2012)

I expect these so-called anti-fascists are anti-semites anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> If they don't like the idea of being denounced they should either toe the line or, better still, refrain from joining an organisation who thinks that the expulsion of dissenting voices is a sensible approach to reasoned debate.


 
maybe they didn't know?


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## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2012)

And lets not forget that these denunciations are a hangover from the days when the consequences were a little bit more serious than missing out on trips to the pub.


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## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> maybe they didn't know?


----------



## audiotech (May 1, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> LOL and this from the poster whose glare has been known to cause fash to go weak at the knees and members of militant to recant. Trust you take this in the spirit that its meant lone groover


 
Sure mush. I ended up on my knees once, with a black eye from some fash twat. 1981, Giro Jamboree, an alternate to the wedding of the King and Di. Told a gaggle of the tossers to fuck off down t'palace, they weren't welcome here. The two wevolutionary, anti-fascists with me just stood there like melons.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing is, given Swappie history, which elements of the membership are going to risk getting physical and then have the CC denounce them as "squaddists"?


 
The percentage of current SWP members who are even dimly aware of the "squaddist" expulsions 30 fucking years ago is likely to be minimal to say the least. It would have zero bearing on the actions of some random SWP member who happened to be on the scene of an incident like this.


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## Nigel Irritable (May 1, 2012)

past caring said:


> I'd say that you'd need to add commitment, organisational ability and a reasonable degree of intelligence/ability to plan. But that's by the by - so far, they've not even shown much by way of determination.


 
I suspect that with most of London and other major British cities covered by CCTV cameras, a sustained campaign of assaults on paper sales, which are almost always on busy high streets, would also require the ability to support prisoners before very long.


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## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The percentage of current SWP members who are even dimly aware of the "squaddist" expulsions 30 fucking years ago is likely to be minimal to say the least. It would have zero bearing on the actions of some random SWP member who happened to be on the scene of an incident like this.


 
I'd wager you'd be wrong on that one. Squaddism was the line Troted out at Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance by the SWP. They were particularly sectarian towards us although some of their more decent members were friendly.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I'd wager you'd be wrong on that one. Squaddism was the line Troted out at Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance by the SWP. They were particularly sectarian towards us although some of their more decent members were friendly.


 
I'm sure that some fulltimer was aware of the origins of the term, but you don't have to be aware of the history of the ANL Mk1 and the expulsions 30 years ago to understand that the SWP counterposes "mass action" to "small group etc etc". And believe me, 90% of SWP members are not aware of that history.

Why would they be? The SWP is not big into that sort of internal education and many of their members wouldn't even have been born then.


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## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The percentage of current SWP members who are even dimly aware of the "squaddist" expulsions 30 fucking years ago is likely to be minimal to say the least. It would have zero bearing on the actions of some random SWP member who happened to be on the scene of an incident like this.


 
What was it George Santayana said about history, Nigel?


----------



## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm sure that some fulltimer was aware of the origins of the term, but you don't have to be aware of the history of the ANL Mk1 and the expulsions 30 years ago to understand that the SWP counterposes "mass action" to "small group etc etc". And believe me, 90% of SWP members are not aware of that history.
> 
> Why would they be? The SWP is not big into that sort of internal education and many of their members wouldn't even have been born then.


 
But the rank and file need to be informed of the SWP position, comrade. 

In Manchester they had to be informed of why MAFA was bad and the line was we were Squaddists.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> But the rank and file need to be informed of the SWP position, comrade.
> 
> In Manchester they had to be informed of why MAFA was bad and the line was we were Squaddists.


 
And I very much doubt if that information started with an explanation of the ins and outs of expulsions 30 years ago. It will have been "the SWP is in favour of mass action, comrade, not elitist actions by small squads...".

The split with what became Red Action looms about as large in the minds of the SWP membership as the splits with the RDG, Andy Wilson ISG, the Higgins/Protz group, Workers Power, Workers Fight, RCG, etc. Which is to say the vast majority of them don't know and don't care.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> But the rank and file need to be informed of the SWP position, comrade.
> 
> In Manchester they had to be informed of why MAFA was bad and the line was we were Squaddists.


 
Were there loads of young Swappies mooching around looking puzzled and asking "Squaddist. Wot's that?" after the denunciation?


----------



## discokermit (May 1, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> And believe me, 90% of SWP members are not aware of that history.
> 
> Why would they be? The SWP is not big into that sort of internal education and many of their members wouldn't even have been born then.


i don't know the situation now but when i was in, late eighties/early nineties, swp history was regularly discussed informally. i knew about the matgamna split and the expulsions of the birmingham engineers even though they were well before my time.


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## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Were there loads of young Swappies mooching around looking puzzled and asking "Squaddist. Wot's that?" after the denunciation?


 
Decent young ones didn't care. 

In Manchester but they knew what the term meant and its historical significance. Perhaps the calibre of SWP members is higher in Manchester.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Decent young ones didn't care.
> 
> In Manchester but they knew what the term meant and its historical significance. Perhaps the calibre of SWP members is higher in Manchester.


 
That's about the best explanation I can think of, this side of Nigel telling us he pulled that 90% figure out of his arse.


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## discokermit (May 1, 2012)

past caring said:


> Where did I say that?


you didn't. i substituted something as you didn't actually make any concrete suggestions. the point still stands whatever you suggest.





> Big northern lad, worked at the printshop, bad complexion - I worked there too - he got cabbaged by the BNP down Brick Lane at the point the SWP were trying to relaunch the ANL - 91? - 92? Following week, in Surrey Docks when we were supposed to be leafleting and two of us had seen a van load of BNP driving around, the local full timer denied the previous week's attack, accused us of sowing paranoia blah, blah. There were a number of other incidents around the same time, some of which I only became aware of later - precisely because local organisers were told to keep a lid on things.


that rings true. it always gets out in the end though.


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## discokermit (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Decent young ones didn't care.
> 
> In Manchester but they knew what the term meant and its historical significance. Perhaps the calibre of SWP members is higher in Manchester.


most young revolutionaries want to batter fascists. then comes the talk with a senior member,

you shouldn't do that, it's squaddism.

what's squaddism?

blahblahblahredactionblahblahblah

who's red action?

blahblahblahsquaddistsblahblahblah.


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## malatesta32 (May 1, 2012)

the value in the small crop of militant antifascist books recently (and forthcoming) is that they can redress the balance, show a different take on antifascist history and put forward our side of the story rather than the likes of dave renton.


----------



## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the value in the small crop of militant antifascist books recently (and forthcoming) is that they can redress the balance, show a different take on antifascist history and put forward our side of the story rather than the likes of dave renton.


 
What are the recent ones and what are the forthcoming ones?


----------



## The39thStep (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> What are the recent ones and what are the forthcoming ones?


 
Malatesta32: Hitler my part in his downfall


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## malatesta32 (May 1, 2012)

steps, it cd be his part in my downfall with this bloody book! red storm, i refer to no retreat, BTF, martin lux, k bullstreet and the superb forthcoming Militant Antifascism: 100 Years of Resistance by Malteser Tester!


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## HST (May 1, 2012)

Nicked off wikipedia but...

Birchall, Sean, _Beating The Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action_ (London: Freedom Press, 2010) ISBN 978-1-904491-12-5
Bullstreet, K.. _Bash the Fash: Anti-Fascist Recollections 1984-1993_. ISBN 1-873605-87-0.
_Anti-Fascist Action: an Anarchist Perspective_ (Kate Sharpley Library, 2007) ISBN 9781873605493
Hann, Dave and Steve Tilzey, _No Retreat_ (Milo Books, 2003) ISBN 1903854229
Also The 43 Group - http://www.newsfromnowhere.org.uk/books/DisplayBookInfo.php?ISBN=0903738759


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 1, 2012)

HST said:


> Nicked off wikipedia but...
> 
> Birchall, Sean, _Beating The Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action_ (London: Freedom Press, 2010) ISBN 978-1-904491-12-5
> Bullstreet, K.. _Bash the Fash: Anti-Fascist Recollections 1984-1993_. ISBN 1-873605-87-0.
> ...


 
Just add the Martin Lux to that lot and you've got a nice little library going.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's about the best explanation I can think of, this side of Nigel telling us he pulled that 90% figure out of his arse.


 
Just to be clear, I did pull that 90% figure out of my arse. I certainly didn't conduct an opinion poll.

I've met a lot of SWP members. I've argued with a lot of SWP members. There are two things I've learnt never to bother with in an argument with most of them: (a) The way that something one of their sister groups is doing abroad is completely opposed to the line they are arguing here or (b) some crazy shit they got up to more than five years ago. By and large, they don't know and they don't care. Caring about those things or even knowing about those things aren't part of the organisation's culture. As compared to other left wing groups, most of which pay a fair bit of attention to these things and some of which are practically obsessive about them, the SWP, for a lot of its own members, basically doesn't have a past.


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## discokermit (May 1, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Just to be clear, I did pull that 90% figure out of my arse. I certainly didn't conduct an opinion poll.
> 
> I've met a lot of SWP members. I've argued with a lot of SWP members. There are two things I've learnt never to bother with in an argument with most of them: (a) The way that something one of their sister groups is doing abroad is completely opposed to the line they are arguing here or (b) some crazy shit they got up to more than five years ago. By and large, they don't know and they don't care. Caring about those things or even knowing about those things aren't part of the organisation's culture. As compared to other left wing groups, most of which pay a fair bit of attention to these things and some of which are practically obsessive about them, the SWP, for a lot of its own members, basically doesn't have a past.


i agree with (a), but the rest doesn't fit with my experience. mind you, it has been a long time since i was involved.


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## Anudder Oik (May 1, 2012)

After hearing  a few times the SWP's arguments against Squadism I found them to be somewhat dogmatic. Like sacred scripts they get out and polish every once in a while and which the membership dutifully learned and repeated.

the basic vocabulary is this; _undemocratic, elitist, substitute for the class, makes us look as bad as the fash, doesn't work, it's what the fash want, etc.._

But I've always had the feeling that there was a more hidden reason, perhaps more psychological, for opposing squadism and that it reveals a lack of seriousness about their goals and relationship with the working class as a whole.


----------



## audiotech (May 1, 2012)

past caring said:


> Only when I'm speaking to you, cunt.


 
Hahaha - plumb.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 2, 2012)

discokermit said:


> i agree with (a), but the rest doesn't fit with my experience. mind you, it has been a long time since i was involved.


 
Both vary a bit. You'll meet the odd SWP member who used to live abroad or has an interest in some other country and so knows all about their sister organisation there. And you'll meet a higher number of SWPers who have spent time in the pub talking to an old timer about the days of yore in the pub after a branch meeting, or who are used to arguing with other leftists who do tend to have an interest in that sort of stuff.

But overall, the SWP has always seemed to me to be the far left strand whose members have the least interest in these things in relative terms. The Irish SWP for instance used to have a radically different line on elements of the national question, which is a pretty important issue here for obvious reasons, but I don't think I've ever met an SWPer who wasn't around in the 1980s who actually knows about it in any detail.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2012)

Transpontine said:


> Not strictly true - Americans are allowed to use the term 'soccer' as they have that funny version of 'football'.


i think I know what i've heard rather better than you do


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## Pickman's model (May 2, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Hahaha - plumb.


The insult you're searching for is 'plum'.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2012)

co-op said:


> And yanks, ozzies, kiwis etc. Oh hang on...


As I pointed out to transpontine I know what i've heard better than you do.


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## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Just to be clear, I did pull that 90% figure out of my arse. I certainly didn't conduct an opinion poll.


 
Fair play to you for admitting it. 



> I've met a lot of SWP members. I've argued with a lot of SWP members. There are two things I've learnt never to bother with in an argument with most of them: (a) The way that something one of their sister groups is doing abroad is completely opposed to the line they are arguing here or (b) some crazy shit they got up to more than five years ago. By and large, they don't know and they don't care. Caring about those things or even knowing about those things aren't part of the organisation's culture. As compared to other left wing groups, most of which pay a fair bit of attention to these things and some of which are practically obsessive about them, the SWP, for a lot of its own members, basically doesn't have a past.


 
TBF most of the few Swappies (as opposed to ex-Swappies) I know are in their 40s and 50s, so they probably remember because they either were around when it happened, or heard about it soon after.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Hahaha - plumb.


 
Plum, as in "you plum".


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Plum, as in "you plum".


 
Or perhaps audiotech has a burning dislike of brickies?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Red Storm (May 2, 2012)

Anudder Oik said:


> After hearing a few times the SWP's arguments against Squadism I found them to be somewhat dogmatic. Like sacred scripts they get out and polish every once in a while and which the membership dutifully learned and repeated.
> 
> the basic vocabulary is this; _undemocratic, elitist, substitute for the class, makes us look as bad as the fash, doesn't work, it's what the fash want, etc.._
> 
> But I've always had the feeling that there was a more hidden reason, perhaps more psychological, for opposing squadism and that it reveals a lack of seriousness about their goals and relationship with the working class as a whole.


 
Substitutes mass action for individual terrorism, comrade!

Even though Squad-ism is exactly what Trotsky argues for in the part on France in:_ Fascism: what it is and how to fight it. _


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## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Substitutes mass action for individual terrorism, comrade!
> 
> Even though Squad-ism is exactly what Trotsky argues for in the part on France in:_ Fascism: what it is and how to fight it. _


 
Any Swappie CC member worth their salt will tell you that what Trotsky actually meant was...


----------



## Ranbay (May 2, 2012)

http://twitpic.com/9gekjz

or something


----------



## krink (May 2, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> http://twitpic.com/9gekjz
> 
> or something


 
woah bob man, just having me tea here


----------



## audiotech (May 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> The insult you're searching for is 'plum'.


 
Alright, yes I'm the 'plum'.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Any Swappie CC member worth their salt will tell you that what Trotsky actually meant was...


 
Not really because he was addressing (or so he thought) uniquely Stalinist arguments, he held them up to the light and forensically dissected them at both a macro and a micro level.

There is in other words no wriggle room; no 'what he actually meant was'. The lessons drawn are utterly explicit.

So rather than debate it, the SWP and other Trots have consistenly drawn a complete veil over it for at least 30 years and probably longer. 

Someone somewhere decided that in the interests of the entire Trot 'movement' the safest course of action was to bury the pamplet with the same degree of conviction as an ice-pick in the head.


----------



## discokermit (May 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> the safest course of action was to bury the pamplet with the same degree of conviction as an ice-pick in the head.


on sale on the branch bookstall and at bookmarks, http://www.bookmarksbookshop.co.uk/...art_id=4219670.20227&search_request_button=Go

fourth on the "fighting fascism recommended reading list".


----------



## discokermit (May 2, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Or perhaps audiotech has a burning dislike of brickies?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


more likely plumbers or leadsmiths.

actually, i think plumb works better than plum as an insult. one is a soft fruit, the other a dense, heavy, soft metal which is poisonous.


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## malatesta32 (May 3, 2012)

oh dont bring metal into it, its as bad as soccer teams.


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## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

The IS/SWP in the period  in which the ANL Mark 1  and the RtW etc were built was a very different kettle of fish than the SWP is now. The implications to move to a Leninist Party weren't understood by a lot of the membership especially the large influx of recruits that the organisation gained through the ANL and RtW. The IS already had in some parts a tradition inside workplaces but its support there was far less dogmatic than now, branches by and large tended to have some unevenness of agreement about tactics and in the organisation overall there was a far wider degree of diversity of opinion and debate. You could argue a different line without getting expelled, even if you were suspended by and large you were let back in. its was only the serious Trotoid type factions that got the back hand of the hacks. The organisation basically was more tolerant.Branches were seen as less of a franchise of the SWP  and more of a local branch with connections to the Socialist Worker paper

I was intermittently  around the IS and other groups for a while in the mid 70s and joined during Grunwicks, I can remember Paul Holborrow reassuring me that IS/SWP were libertarian socialists! Socialism form below was the general ethos and political education was just as much about the Wobblies, early CP , Luxemburg as it was about the Russian revolution. Yes there was an obsession about Trotsky but that is because Trotsky was seen as left wing Stalinism  and we wanted to be bigger left wing version of the CP.

Joe and BigNose will remember that the attacks on the fash were positively advocated by members of the CC, particular Deason.Equating the fascists head with the pavement was the general line along with denouncing the CP for aligning themselves with vicars and marching in the opposite direction when the fash came to town.The organisation was labelled as the 'throw a brick party' by the Broad Left, in general the IS/SWP and those who supported were the only show in town when it came to attracting those who wanted physical force anti-fascsim. I remember an article in the Guardian  i think it was which visited some place where the NF had a meeting and the ANL had just ben formed and it briefly discussed the 'darker violent elements of the SWP' in the new ANL and has some comments from someone saying that they felt reassured when they turned up as it scared the NF but that they wouldn't like to meet them in other circumstances. The branches that I was in in West and North West London had weekly/fortnightly interactions with the fash with not many batting an eyelid, apart from a time when firearms( mainly airguns) were rumoured to be involved on both sides.

Joe Jacobs Out Of The Getto was encouraged reading over  Our Flag  Stays Red, we were following in the tradition of the 43 group, if Rosenhaft's Beating the Fascists has been published in the mid 1970s it would have been book of the month.

What caused political panic in the organisation  was the ironically the implications of 'socialism from below' inside  the organisation and the threat it carried to the introduction of the Bolshevisation of the Party from not only the influx of young working class supporters but those older ones involved in rank and file groups as well. After a few years , in some case less, of joining  it was almost like the Party getting in the way of 'our'  view of what we thought was our tradition , our view of  a socialist organisation might be like.

Can't think of a way of actually concluding this post so I will stop there


----------



## Random (May 3, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I was intermittently  around the IS and other groups for a while in the mid 70s and joined during Grunwicks, I can remember Paul Holborrow reassuring me that IS/SWP were libertarian socialists! Socialism form below was the general ethos and political education was just as much about the Wobblies, early CP , Luxemburg as it was about the Russian revolution. Yes there was an obsession about Trotsky but that is because Trotsky was seen as left wing Stalinism  and we wanted to be bigger left wing version of the CP.



Would that be the same time that people like Peter Sedgwick were interested in Victor Serge, etc. An exp-SWP member in Manchester who'd be about the same age as you spoke to me about a libertarian current in the party at that time, I think.


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

Random said:


> Would that be the same time that people like Peter Sedgwick were interested in Victor Serge, etc. An exp-SWP member in Manchester who'd be about the same age as you spoke to me about a libertarian current in the party at that time, I think.


 
We were encouraged to read Serge, Ten days that shook the world etc.  Sedgwick wrote a brilliant book on mental health actually.Nigel Harris could have different opinions on the world economy and the nature of states. Even the early IS theories however flawed on permanent arms economy, state cap etc were bold and innovative.


----------



## bignose1 (May 3, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Malatesta32: Hitler my part in his downfall


The Missing Luftwaffe' Chiefs Looted Antiques called Goering Goering Gone
....their is also a recent history of the White Knights of the KKK..£7.99 also available on Klandle...3 days since the derby and Im feeling better though my son got sacked from H**C yesterday...but he's not too pissed off...full of wankers...and getting back on topic...I posted earlier on another thread about a possible resurgence in fascist violence and Ive had 3 mainstream press enquiries/requests on the back of whats happened recently.


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The Missing Luftwaffe' Chiefs Looted Antiques called Goering Goering Gone
> ....their is also a recent history of the White Knights of the KKK..£7.99 also available on Klandle...3 days since the derby and Im feeling better though my son got sacked from HSBC yesterday...but he's not too pissed off...full of wankers.


 
My son got sacked on the eve of my wife's funeral last year!


----------



## Random (May 3, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your wife, I didn't know


----------



## bignose1 (May 3, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> My son got sacked on the eve of my wife's funeral last year!


Sorry to hear about that S and your lad....my son was set up by a work colleague...not financial shenanigans...before anyone starts....but office banter that got out of hand. Only been there a few weeks.


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## Louis MacNeice (May 3, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> We were encouraged to read Serge, Ten days that shook the world etc. Sedgwick wrote a brilliant book on mental health actually.Nigel Harris could have different opinions on the world economy and the nature of states. Even the early IS theories however flawed on permanent arms economy, state cap etc were bold and innovative.


 
Have to agree on Sedgwick's _Psycho Politics_; published in 1982 and still a great and interesting read today.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2012)

I'd guess there was more space to allow these people to do these things at the time - but remember that Cliff had pushed through his democratic centralist constitution as far back as 1968. These people were only on the length of leash he allowed them, and when conditions changed...


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2012)

discokermit said:


> on sale on the branch bookstall and at bookmarks, http://www.bookmarksbookshop.co.uk/...art_id=4219670.20227&search_request_button=Go
> 
> fourth on the "fighting fascism recommended reading list".


 

It might be now but it wasn't when it mattered. Still, it is a bit of reminder of what brass balls they have. With Waterloo etc in their retrospective fuck knows what other recovered memories there are.


----------



## discokermit (May 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It might be now but it wasn't when it mattered. Still, it is a bit of reminder of what brass balls they have. With Waterloo etc in their retrospective fuck knows what other recovered memories there are.


when i joined in '88 it was on the bookstall. the practise didn't match up to the theory though, as we found out with anl mk2.


----------



## past caring (May 3, 2012)

What theory?


----------



## emanymton (May 3, 2012)

Definitely no cover up. I was assuming it wouldn't even make it in the into 'the paper'.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Definitely no cover up. I was assuming it wouldn't even make it in the into 'the paper'.


 
Despite al the hoohah about the intentions of the EDL and the predictions of BNP returning to the streets  with dire consequences for the Left as a whole, that the SWP is happily donning the cloak of martyr this time, merely demonstrates that this is an isolated incident for which on balance the party leadership cannot be blamed.

And precisely because it is a fairly isolated incident there will not have to bat away any calls for a change of plan. When in the early '90's such attacks were common place the incident may or may not have been reported, but when it was, the victims were consistently identified as 'socialists' only. To admit to any party attachment/responsibility was simply to invite pressure from without and questions from within.

Accordingly the leadership instinct to deny, deny, deny, trickled down through the ranks resulting in some bizarre behaviour.

On one occassion in Bethnal Green and covered in BtF, the SWP orgainser was effectively bossily denying an attack had just happened, even though at least one of her paper selling comrades was at the time stretched out unconscious on the pavement feet from her!


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## manny-p (May 3, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> My son got sacked on the eve of my wife's funeral last year!


Sorry to hear about your loss.


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## manny-p (May 3, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The Missing Luftwaffe' Chiefs Looted Antiques called Goering Goering Gone
> ....their is also a recent history of the White Knights of the KKK..£7.99 also available on Klandle...3 days since the derby and Im feeling better though my son got sacked from H**C yesterday...but he's not too pissed off...full of wankers...and getting back on topic...I posted earlier on another thread about a possible resurgence in fascist violence and Ive had 3 mainstream press enquiries/requests on the back of whats happened recently.


hope your son is okay pal.


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## The39thStep (May 4, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Sorry to hear about your loss.


Thanks mate.


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## JimW (May 4, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks mate.


Sorry to hear it too. Terrible hard thing.


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## Captain Hurrah (May 4, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> My son got sacked on the eve of my wife's funeral last year!


 
Sorry to hear about your loss.


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## bignose1 (May 4, 2012)

manny-p said:


> hope your son is okay pal.


Thanks. Hes pissed off because it was his first 'proper job' and first half decent wage but the place was full of grasses all snitching on colleagues. He wouldnt have fitted in their in the long term and he knows it.... deep down it wasnt for him.


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## audiotech (May 4, 2012)

My sympathy's too steps on your loss.


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## LLETSA (May 4, 2012)

Random said:


> Sorry to hear about your wife, I didn't know


 


I didn't know either. My condolences too, steps


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## Ranbay (May 4, 2012)

only read on twitter so not sure, but 3 people may have been nicked for this today.


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## frogwoman (May 4, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks mate.


 
I didnt know, sorry to hear about your wife.


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## Transpontine (May 5, 2012)

I'm not sure that the political management of the Lewisham incident by the SWP is the most significant thing about this, but on that point they like everbody else now live in an age in which total control of communications is virtually impossible. I believe it was a solfed member who first mentioned on twitter that the SWP stall had been attacked in Lewisham, presumably as a result of coming across the aftermath in the town centre. Within a few minutes that had been extensively retweeted it and people all over the country knew about it.  As a near eye witness (I saw the build up but not the attack) I posted something on my blog the same afternoon etc etc. So keeping the attack quiet would have been impossible, even if they wanted to.

Having heard a bit more about it I now believe this wasn't any kind of disciplined hit. It looks to me like a group of ten or so EDL types went down to Lewisham with the intent to make mischief at the planned UAF event, but probably with no specific plan. They hung around for an hour and then when a soft target presented itself decided to hassle the SWP stall, even then they didn't just steam in but went past shouting abuse, then when they got a bit of lip back a few of them lashed out.  I gather that 3 people have now been arrested, as is likely to happen to people who hang around under CCTV cameras in a town centre for an hour and then go home and make crowing noises on facebook about their fun day out.

So while there may be some more sporadic attacks, I wouldn't overinterpret the Lewisham punch-up as heralding the emergence of far-right hit squads of the kind sometimes seen from the 70s to the 90s.


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## Spanky Longhorn (May 5, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I didn't know either. My condolences too, steps


 
From me too.


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## malatesta32 (May 5, 2012)

agreed transpontine. these fuckwit eejits do not have the organisational nous to formulate a concerted campaign. look at the the recent election 'campaigns.' it was an opportunist thing. they were gloating about it and then, realising that info was all over the web, hurriedly deleted incriminating comments. however, canny antifascists screenshot it so it cant be denied and they rapidly went to ground. this may inhibit other incidentds in the future.


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## One_Stop_Shop (May 14, 2012)

I went to the UAF/SWP protest against the attack on Saturday. Fairly depressing. 70 odd people there who mostly knew each other. Around 9 or 10 different papers being sold, and a total disconnect to the local community walking past. Tokenism at its best.


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## The39thStep (May 14, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> I went to the UAF/SWP protest against the attack on Saturday. Fairly depressing. 70 odd people there who mostly knew each other. Around 9 or 10 different papers being sold, and a total disconnect to the local community walking past. Tokenism at its best.


 
where were Malatestas lot?


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## dennisr (May 14, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Tokenism at its best.


 
Yours or theirs?


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## Joe Reilly (May 14, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> 70 odd people there.


 
How odd were they?


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