# Doctor Who - THE END OF TIME - BBC1 18:00 hrs



## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

This is IT. The beginning of the regeneration from Tenth to Eleventh Doctor.

It's got Cribbens in, which will be undoubtably brilliant.


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

Has it got Catherine Tate in? Who can swivel if it has.


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## strung out (Dec 25, 2009)

i've heard it's not great. keeping my fingers crossed that my brother, who's seen it, is wrong!


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Has it got Catherine Tate in? Who can swivel if it has.



Yep, sure has. Can't wait


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## terrynutkin (Dec 25, 2009)

Stoked for this!


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

Now I realise I'm not the world's greatest Dr Who fan, but that was patently shit, surely?


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## AverageJoe (Dec 25, 2009)

Didnt see that coming...


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

What didn't you see coming? The low budget head-shaking transformation thing coupled with the usual maniacal laughter. We get it - he's a little crazy like.


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## terrynutkin (Dec 25, 2009)

That was awesome, the fucking Time Lords are back!


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

Excellent stuff  Nice and dark & the return of the you know whos. Can't wait until part 2.

Rest of you cynics can play The Wire again or some other Charlie Brooker sanctioned entertainment


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## Jonti (Dec 25, 2009)

Interesting that the Time Lords of Gallifrey seem to back in business, innit.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 25, 2009)

The Timelords are back! I didn't expect that at all. I was worried the big reveal would be the Daleks or something.


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## gnoriac (Dec 25, 2009)

Who fucking produced that shite?

The incidental music was so loud it drowned out the Portentous Statements of all the hamming actors involved (Cribbins was the only one was OK). Overall it was like a comic opera by Wagner, if he ever did any. Or maybe some godawful panto. 

Cheesy special effects, overdone hack lighting.


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

Time Lords back, yeah alright.

But the Cribbens subplot is such obvious last minute shit that it shows Davies has got no fucking idea how to sort a proper plot arc.

Flying John Simm was similarly awful.

Just fuck off Davies, let Moffatt take control.


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> The Timelords are back! I didn't expect that at all. I was worried the big reveal would be the Daleks or something.



Thank feck for that.

And the rest of you - it's a kids show for christ's sake. Take a chill pill


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

And this remains a bulletin board mostly for adults. I gave Dr Who another go and it was shit, not solely because it was a kids show but because it was a clumsily plotted, overblown feast of averageness.


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> And this remains a bulletin board mostly for adults. I gave Dr Who another go and it was shit, not solely because it was a kids show but because it was a clumsily plotted, overblown feast of averageness.



It was probably one of the greatest Who's ever written. But gosh, it's so trendy and urban to jump on the anti RTD bandwagon.

In years to come, this will be remembered as the greatest saga ever told. Up there with Gone With the Wind, The Seven Samurai and Solaris.


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

jer said:


> It was probably one of the greatest Who's ever written. But gosh, it's so trendy and urban to jump on the anti RTD bandwagon.
> 
> In years to come, this will be remembered as the greatest saga ever told. Up there with Gone With the Wind, The Seven Samurai and Solaris.


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

None of you probably had to sit through Delta & the Bannermen, I presume?


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## strung out (Dec 25, 2009)

it was ok, bit ropey in places. tbf, i don't think you can have a go for crap plotting... this arc has been in the making for over 5 years. i did predict the return of the timelords months ago though


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## Stigmata (Dec 25, 2009)

That's just what you need when you're half-cut and drowsy from a massive Christmas dinner. Proper mental and overdramatic, which is all I ask from Doctor Who.


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

The Cribbens plot looks totally unplanned though, he's your sympathetic identifier within the story - don't layer him up with a load of subterfuge shit


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## gnoriac (Dec 25, 2009)

Or maybe a Meatloaf video, except the (incompetently mixed) music wasn't quite so awful.


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

Pah. I remember fondly watching Dr Who as a nipper, terrified by the clumsy menace of the daleks, cybermen and other tacky prosthetic figures.

What do the youth of today get? A shouty refugee from Human Traffic hamming it up and firing energy beams out of his hand like a 2nd rate emperor impersonator with peroxide crop at a star wars convention. And Catherine Fucking Tate to boot


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## nightowl (Dec 25, 2009)

Not quite sure about that one. Can't make my mind up whether it was promising or crap


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> A shouty refugee from Human Traffic



That's the worst description of John Simm I have ever heard 

And he can only do what he can with the script. I mean honestly, flying and shit


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## strung out (Dec 25, 2009)

i like all the people harking back to the good old days of doctor who. there was some absolute shite put on telly back in the day by the old producers. this is oscar winning stuff compared to it!


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## AverageJoe (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> What didn't you see coming? The low budget head-shaking transformation thing coupled with the usual maniacal laughter. We get it - he's a little crazy like.



Didnt see the Time Lords coming back..

Did you see trying hard to be cooler-than-thou though and being the first to say it was shit  Still its xmas, so good luck to ya Mr T


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

The old Dr Who had its own unique and rickety British charm though.

This was mainly second rate derivative hollywood-focussed nonsense though. High on noise, low on charm and distinctness.


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## Stigmata (Dec 25, 2009)

Should have been Roger Moore as the Time Lord IMO


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## terrynutkin (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> The old Dr Who had its own unique and rickety British charm though.



So you'd want them to go out of their way to use shoddy props?


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

terrynutkin said:


> So you'd want them to go out of their way to use shoddy props?



That's a bit harsh on Camille Coduri


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## marty21 (Dec 25, 2009)

haven't watched Dr Who in a few years, gave it a chance tonight, and enjoyed it


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## gnoriac (Dec 25, 2009)

Balbi said:


> That's the worst description of John Simm I have ever heard
> 
> And he can only do what he can with the script. I mean honestly, flying and shit



I've never seen him in anything else, but in Dr Who he's only ever been average at best and tonight he was awful, as was Tennant and most of the rest of the cast.


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## Strumpet (Dec 25, 2009)

marty21 said:


> haven't watched Dr Who in a few years, gave it a chance tonight, and enjoyed it


I enjoyed too


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## marty21 (Dec 25, 2009)

Stigmata said:


> Should have been Roger Moore as the Time Lord IMO



Sean Connery


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## tarannau (Dec 25, 2009)

terrynutkin said:


> So you'd want them to go out of their way to use shoddy props?



Nope, but they shouldn't be trying to play the top special effects game either. It's an uncomfortable halfway house ime.

I know there's a need for marketing to the rest of the world, but I've only seen a few episodes of late and I'm already sick of shots of London landmarks and mentions of Obama and other politicians. Equally the sheer noise factor makes it seem like a bad rawk/pop video, everything compressed into the shouty band. 

I'm sure there's a great story in there, but it all seems secondary to the shouting and general hammed up loudness.


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## QueenOfGoths (Dec 25, 2009)

Stigmata said:


> That's just what you need when you're half-cut and drowsy from a massive Christmas dinner. Proper mental and overdramatic, which is all I ask from Doctor Who.




Yup! Not brilliant but also not awful and it has set things up nicely for the next episode.

Plus some fine heavy weight thesp acting from David Tennant and John Simm


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## Bungle73 (Dec 25, 2009)

jer said:


> None of you probably had to sit through Delta & the Bannermen, I presume?



Now that truly was shit, as was that absorbortron thingy episode.

I enjoyed it!


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## AverageJoe (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh - I also liked the explanation of the 'drum striking 4 times' (or whatever it was) 4 times. Totally forgot that Timelords have 2 hearts, hence 4 heartbeat sounds


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## AverageJoe (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh - and first 2 mins of next episode here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/episodes/S0_09

Click on clip on the right of the screen

And here is the trailer for next episode.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/e...&info=&info2=&info3=&tag_file_id=s0_10_trl_01

Wilf in a dogfight


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## elevendayempire (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> The old Dr Who had its own unique and rickety British charm though.


What a lot of utter cock. Philip Hinchcliffe would've _killed_ for CGI and the budget they have now.


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## elevendayempire (Dec 25, 2009)

AverageJoe said:


> Oh - I also liked the explanation of the 'drum striking 4 times' (or whatever it was) 4 times. Totally forgot that Timelords have 2 hearts, hence 4 heartbeat sounds


I believe that's a red herring - Davies has said there are a few "ooh, that's the four knocks," moments in there. John Simm banging the oil drum was another one.


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## DexterTCN (Dec 25, 2009)

That was terrible, and I'm normally a fan.

The Time-Lord ending did very little to justify the whole episode, which could have been done in 15 or 20 minutes.

I'll still be watching the next one, though.


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## punkrockfaggot (Dec 25, 2009)

AverageJoe said:


> Oh - and first 2 mins of next episode here.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/episodes/S0_09



Just how many Timelords *haven't* gone to crazy town?


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## madzone (Dec 25, 2009)

Loved it


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## AverageJoe (Dec 25, 2009)

elevendayempire said:


> I believe that's a red herring - Davies has said there are a few "ooh, that's the four knocks," moments in there. John Simm banging the oil drum was another one.



No its not. Watch the trailer for the next episode and Daltons character explains it.

It also appears that the TimeLords arent *back* but that the storyline is taking place at the same time as the TimeLords are being defeated in the Time War - hence The End Of Time.


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

They're crossing the Doctor's timeline 

That said, Doctor versus Time Lords at the end of the Time War could see some pretty devastated Doctor come the regeneration - remember how battered up Ecclestone was as the Ninth. Tennant may have to do it again


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## Dovydaitis (Dec 25, 2009)

not seen it yet as getting utterly pissed on good port and eating a dairy's worth of cheeses but will be iplayering it


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## Limejuice (Dec 25, 2009)

Anyone see the Dr Who Confidential on BBC3?

Some low-wattage bulb thought it would be a bright idea to have REALLY LOUD  FOREGROUND   BACKGROUND music on top of the interviews with RTD, etc. Even my kids found it utterly inaudible. 

And for the brief moments the noise stopped, it was like waking from a bad dream, on cool linen sheets. Balanced sound levels, clear diction, comprehension.

Then suddenly BAM!!! And you crapped the bed. A truly execrable piece of production.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 25, 2009)

I reckon this returning time lord leaders is Borusa


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

AverageJoe said:


> Oh - I also liked the explanation of the 'drum striking 4 times' (or whatever it was) 4 times. Totally forgot that Timelords have 2 hearts, hence 4 heartbeat sounds



Yep, as incorporated into the theme music. Clever


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## Balbi (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, it was clever when they did it the first time - at the climax of two years ago's series.

Lots of repepepepepepepetition.


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## krtek a houby (Dec 25, 2009)

Balbi said:


> Yeah, it was clever when they did it the first time - at the climax of two years ago's series.
> 
> Lots of repepepepepepepetition.



Aw, c'mon. 40 years - you're bound to have a wee bit of sameness...

I wonder if urbs could do any better? Y'know a lot of fan fiction is trying at the best of times. Maybe set ourselves a challenge & write an urban75 Dr Who episode...


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## strung out (Dec 25, 2009)

tarannau said:


> The old Dr Who had its own unique and rickety British charm though.



that's nonsense! at the time, there was none of this talk about it having unique and rickety charm. that's just labels applied to it 20 years on, as the current Who probably will have years from now. the fact is that there were some well dodgy stories 20-30 years ago and there is a far better hit/miss ratio nowadays than there used to be.


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## Ceej (Dec 25, 2009)

It was great!!! Simms looks like a mad bastard at the best of times, and Tennant was all tearful, love him. 
Looking forward to the next one!


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## wiskey (Dec 25, 2009)

I thought it was dull. I was really looking forward to it but it just didn't pull me in. I do love Simms though and he didn't disappoint


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## dylans (Dec 25, 2009)

Ceej said:


> It was great!!! Simms looks like a mad bastard at the best of times, and Tennant was all tearful, love him.
> Looking forward to the next one!



The best thing on TV the whole of christmas. Great.


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## CNT36 (Dec 25, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I reckon this returning time lord leaders is Borusa



Or Omega. Well at least part of him.


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## strung out (Dec 25, 2009)

or possibly rassilon... don't say i told you mind


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## London_Calling (Dec 25, 2009)

May watch it. Saw 30 seconds - amused that The Master is a hoodie. I guess that kind of thing is veh much RDT's  style.


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## CNT36 (Dec 25, 2009)

strung_out said:


> or possibly rassilon... don't say i told you mind



Have your seen the scene from next weeks?


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## strung out (Dec 25, 2009)

yup


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## CNT36 (Dec 25, 2009)

Just the hand/glove thing got me thinking Omega.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 26, 2009)

Rassilon  Going old school. They had the traditional twat-robes of Time Lords from back in the day


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 26, 2009)

Stigmata said:


> Should have been Roger Moore as the Time Lord IMO


 
Perhaps next week Dalton will regenerate into Brosnan.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 26, 2009)

jer said:


> None of you probably had to sit through Delta & the Bannermen, I presume?



i have it on video

it's shit  (about 85%)

this new one is about 60% shit 

nutty john simms  is perfectly fine  but  if he hadn't  had that bad cg  it would have been better... more creepy

emo doctor bit's arn't too bad this time

i fucking  hate  this  everyday people calling out for the saviour doctor shit though  

the whole world  as  a master was  great in a fun sorta  way  but  will  probably end up being amazingly shit plot wise

time lords back...  please do not fuck them over as badly as you did the daleks

doctor who has always had a tendency to be over the top  but RTD has a tendency to make his special  like being water boarded with liquid OTT


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 26, 2009)

i did like the sound of drums being the  classic who  theme


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## QueenOfGoths (Dec 26, 2009)

Can I just point out that Barry Stuart-Hargreaves from "Hi-de-Hi was also in the episode which guarantees it at least an 8 out of 10 on my scale


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## London_Calling (Dec 26, 2009)

Perhaps it's a clue, I did hear Sue Polland might be the new assistant.


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## Nine Bob Note (Dec 26, 2009)

Fuck me. A Davis two parter where the second half will be better than the first


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## gnoriac (Dec 26, 2009)

Limejuice said:


> Anyone see the Dr Who Confidential on BBC3?
> 
> Some low-wattage bulb thought it would be a bright idea to have REALLY LOUD  FOREGROUND   BACKGROUND music on top of the interviews with RTD, etc. Even my kids found it utterly inaudible.
> 
> ...



Same with the latest episode, and seeing The Waters of Mars again, the same problem there (though I didn't notice 1st time round). Same producer? Obviously same deluded belief it makes it more glamorous / dramatic / whatever. Of course it could just be sheer incompetence.


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## Balbi (Dec 26, 2009)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Fuck me. A Davis two parter where the second half will be better than the first



Think you might be getting ahead of the game NBN


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## tarannau (Dec 26, 2009)

It's annoying because it's far from a terrible programme. But all the noise and overblown nonsense becomes wearing - much like the ott compression on commercial radio I found my attention waning by the end. Shouty fatigue or something


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 26, 2009)

Lot's of running about and 'magic' = yawn. Everyone in the world tuning into sims = win.


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## strung out (Dec 26, 2009)

it's got potential, but there was just a little bit too much going on. things like the cult who resurrected the master, then got killed off within the first few minutes (plus, it was all a bit too 'magic' for my liking... a potion thrown into the mix, a smudge of lipstick etc etc), then the father and daughter billionaires, those green aliens. it's been proven time and again that some of the simple stories are the best. still, i'm sure it's going to be fairly exciting, and the return of the timelords is something i've been hoping/waiting for for a while. looking forward to the next episode!


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## strung out (Dec 26, 2009)

damn, you got there first with the magic comment AS


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## Flashman (Dec 26, 2009)

As long as da yoot enjoy it that's all that matters tbh.

And me being a big kid does enjoy it.


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## ericjarvis (Dec 26, 2009)

David Tennant, Bernard Cribbins, John Simm, and David Harewood. There's not going to be a lot of new TV over the holiday with a cast in the same class. It's not the best written of the recent Dr Whos, but not by any means weak. The only reservation I have is that David Tennant is getting perilously close to parodying his own performances, but I think he recognises that.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 26, 2009)

strung_out said:


> damn, you got there first with the magic comment AS



Why do they do it? It's so shit.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 26, 2009)

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic?


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## Balbi (Dec 26, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic?



In science fiction, any insufficiently formulated plot devices appear to be indistinguishable from an episode of Merlin


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## AverageJoe (Dec 26, 2009)

HOw many of you guys stop a film halfway through and then pontificate about how shit it is etc. And then watch the rest of the film?

Its just a TV program. Take your brain out and enjoy it for what it is.


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## spring-peeper (Dec 26, 2009)

Woohoo!!!  I finally get to watch a Dr. Who on the same day as y'all!!!!  One of the television stations is doing a Dr. Who marathon and it's concluding with "the end of time".

I usually avoid the Dr. Who threads because the episodes are not readily available here.  If I read the thread, it will ruin the show when I actually do get to see the show.

Two days ago, we watched "A dangerous bus ride" and "waters of mars".  Tonight, "end of time".

I guess what I got for Christmas?  A dvd with season two on it and another one with Torchwood's "children of earth".  My daughter said that the torchwood is sad and not to watch if if I'm feeling down.  

Yea Dr Who, yea excellent christmas presents and *yea* - Dr Who is on tonight!!!!


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 26, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I just searched it for "Matrix" and can't believe no-ones mentioned the obvious parrallels 

The Master is Agent Smith, with the flying and the self-replicating, and The Doctor is Neo with the inevitable death.

Maybe Davies thought that most who had seen the Matrix sequels would have done their best to have any memory of it medically removed. Well I remember Russell, I remember...


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## krtek a houby (Dec 26, 2009)

Lord Camomile said:


> I haven't read the whole thread yet but I just searched it for "Matrix" and can't believe no-ones mentioned the obvious parrallels
> 
> The Master is Agent Smith, with the flying and the self-replicating, and The Doctor is Neo with the inevitable death.
> 
> (



I dunno, for some reason, I was reminded of the scene where John Malkovich climbs inside his own head - from Being John Malkovich


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 26, 2009)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Lot's of running about and 'magic' = yawn.





strung_out said:


> it's got potential, but there was just a little bit too much going on. things like the cult who resurrected the master, then got killed off within the first few minutes (plus, it was all a bit too 'magic' for my liking... a potion thrown into the mix, a smudge of lipstick etc etc)


 I thought similar, it was certainly an odd start to a sci-fi show, and particularly jarring when the lipstick thing was explained as a 'biometric whatever'.



ericjarvis said:


> The only reservation I have is that David Tennant is getting perilously close to parodying his own performances, but I think he recognises that.


 Again, I'd agree with that, which is a shame as I really like Tennant's Doctor.


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## pigtails (Dec 26, 2009)

I loved it, not gonna dissect it to death and ruin it, just enjoy it!!!


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## Balbi (Dec 26, 2009)




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## Nine Bob Note (Dec 26, 2009)

Balbi said:


>



Only if he cleans his fingernails first


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## _angel_ (Dec 26, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Nope, but they shouldn't be trying to play the top special effects game either. It's an uncomfortable halfway house ime.
> 
> I know there's a need for marketing to the rest of the world, but I've only seen a few episodes of late and I'm already sick of shots of London landmarks and mentions of Obama and other politicians. Equally the sheer noise factor makes it seem like a bad rawk/pop video, everything compressed into the shouty band.
> 
> I'm sure there's a great story in there, but it all seems secondary to the shouting and general hammed up loudness.



I know I was a bit preoccupied and missed the story- and the end - but all I've got from David Tenant as this doctor it OTT and hammy. Really, someone needed to get him to rein it in a bit. 

The music etc is a bit extra but I reckon that it's aimed at kids and all the big American series seem to look more and more like music videos.

I know this makes me sound old, and I like pacey, with music sometimes but enough!


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## Cid (Dec 26, 2009)

It was enjoyable, but I think they missed a few tricks... I liked the feeling in The Waters of Mars that the doctor was losing control a bit, manipulating time-lines that he shouldn't have done. And then he goes on a jaunt round the universe, gets a bit depressed and is summoned by a tentacled Brian Cox who makes him realise what a fool he's been. Could have spun a great story into there but just fucked it off in favour of 'ooh we'll bring the master back again'. Even then 'random master cult'...  Why not bring back the Rani or something?

Meh, I'm sure I'll enjoy the next ep anyway, it's all good drunken fun, but RTD is getting a bit tired.


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## madzone (Dec 26, 2009)

AverageJoe said:


> HOw many of you guys stop a film halfway through and then pontificate about how shit it is etc. And then watch the rest of the film?
> 
> Its just a TV program. Take your brain out and enjoy it for what it is.


 It's Sci Fi

They're a serious lot


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## strung out (Dec 26, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic?



Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology, or possibly, if technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced, depending on whether you listen to clarke, pratchett or asimov


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 26, 2009)

AverageJoe said:


> HOw many of you guys stop a film halfway through and then pontificate about how shit it is etc. And then watch the rest of the film?
> 
> Its just a TV program. Take your brain out and enjoy it for what it is.



"How dare you think something you thought might not be shit, is, and say so? Look at the flickery-light-box and do not speak!" You could be a Dr Who villain.


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## AverageJoe (Dec 26, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "How dare you think something you thought might not be shit, is, and say so? Look at the flickery-light-box and do not speak!" You could be a Dr Who villain.



Maybe I am....*does mysterious wavey hands and then shoots off unrealistically into space to mess with timelines and press a reset button*

I does loves the Dr Who though. But in the same way that I remember seeing Culture Club on TOTP with my parents and them going 'What is that - is that a girl or a boy?' and then blahing through it whilst I wanted to shimmy my way through Karma Chameleon (yes - I was young), I just think that if you are old enough to argue about Dr Who, then you are too old to watch it.

Mentally, not physically iyswim


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## mwgdrwg (Dec 26, 2009)

Man, that cafe scene with Bernard Cribbins...just watched it again on iPlayer and it is more amazing second time around!

Has Bernard Cribbins been knighted yet?!


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 26, 2009)

Wilf 4 Next Doctor!


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## badlands (Dec 26, 2009)

In a brilliant twist the amazing Simms will be the next but one Doctor.

Factoid.


hopefully


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## strung out (Dec 27, 2009)

interesting fact, my brother got a text message from RTD on christmas eve, wishing him a happy christmas.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 27, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Wilf 4 Next Doctor!



Wilf Lunn


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## andy2002 (Dec 27, 2009)

I only saw it last night and thought it was a real mixed bag.

What I liked...
* Simm's brilliantly over-the-top Master - now with super powers!
* The scenes between the Doctor and Wilf, especially the one in the cafe.
* The bit where the Doctor realises that there really is a 'drum beat' thumping away in the Master's head. 
* The clever way Catherine Tate was written into the episode.
* Timothy Dalton gobbing everywhere.

What I disliked...
* The clumsy way in which the Timelords were chucked into the plot right at the end.
* The desperately-dull Naismiths.
* The desperately-dull green alien couple.
* The cringe-making Obama references.

What I remain undecided about...
* Every human on Earth turning into the Master is either bizarre and brilliant or utterly, utterly ridiculous. Maybe it's all three...


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## punkrockfaggot (Dec 27, 2009)

Jasper Carrot for next doctor. You know it makes sense.


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## scifisam (Dec 27, 2009)

I could pick holes in pretty much every aspect of the plot, and some of the acting, but I'm not going to because I really enjoyed it overall anyway.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 27, 2009)

scifisam said:


> I could pick holes in pretty much every aspect of the plot, and some of the acting, but I'm not going to because I really enjoyed it overall anyway.



Well, thats a thing aint it. DW has been subject to so many plot revisions and glaring inconsistencies. Then it has the Chrimbo specials which are never good for the Who geeks but a good hours entertainment for everyone else. I came to the decision that you can't judge Who in any media using criteria other than 'did I enjoy this?'

Hence the cushing ones are in the dustbin but the Paul Mgann one still stands.


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 27, 2009)

scifisam said:


> I could pick holes in pretty much every aspect of the plot, and some of the acting, but I'm not going to because I really enjoyed it overall anyway.


 I think this is the basic issue - I've managed to 'switch off my brain' and watch a lot of pap (the first Transformers movie comes to mind), but this was because I enjoyed it overall. The trouble comes when something fails to entertain you with whatever it does have to offer and thus fails to distract from its flaws.

I thought the first episode of The End of Time was alright, but I didn't like a lot of the decisions and so was left ultimately unsatisfied 

Still holding out hope though


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## scifisam (Dec 27, 2009)

Course, a big plus for me was Donna being back, which is not an opinion shared by everyone.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 27, 2009)

No. No it's not


----------



## Santino (Dec 27, 2009)

It's Doctor Who, the point is to be over the top. It's not The Wire.

Also, I love Donna. And I liked in when the Time Lords appeared.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 27, 2009)

the thing is  doctor who deosn't have to be camp and over the top  it  can be quiet dark and mysterious too

i mean  rather than all that hedious crap they did with the daleks moving planets or the final episode of the masters last appearance wouldn't  you prefer  another episode  like blink or silence in the library or going back further  something like  the curse of fenric


----------



## Santino (Dec 27, 2009)

I want an occasional episode of creeping fear, and then I want Davros to threaten the multiverse with his Giant Ray of Implausibility.

For the same reason, I don't want to see a new Star Wars trilogy in which Leia assembles a coalition of competing interests to form a nascent New Republic built on pooled sovereignty and a common trade policy.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 27, 2009)

i don't mind over the top funness... last master outing i really loved the first episode  where  simms  was frankly  chewing giant holes in the scenery  but  the stupid aging bit  and  the really really  fucking awful  get every one  to wish it all better deus ex machina   really spoilt it

if we  just  had  a little more of a diginified  inteligent  way of doing it   it would have raised the tone imensly... hell i would have settled  for  a reversing of the polarity of the nutron flow   anything  than  shitty shitty  getting people to belive in the doctor crap  that keeps sprouting up


----------



## Flashman (Dec 27, 2009)

scifisam said:


> I could pick holes in pretty much every aspect of the plot, and some of the acting, but I'm not going to because I really enjoyed it overall anyway.



It'd be like picking holes in Knightmare, i.e pointless. So what if The Master had shit coming out of his arms it's a Sat night entertainment show mainly aimed at nippers ffs.

Some people need to move on from Doctor Who, you're taking it far far to fucking seriously.


----------



## rollinder (Dec 27, 2009)

well I liked it


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 27, 2009)

I demand the right to analyise my entertainment to the nth degree. I call upon Barthez to back me up.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 27, 2009)

who comes up with the idea  oh it's just for kids   let us let it be shit

that's just fucking lazy

i loved doctor who as a child  and  part of the reason why  was   the darkness and seriousness of a lot of it... yes maybe   there was ham acting  and crap effects  but god damn it it felt like  they were trying hard to do some thing special ... just like  some of the  new doctor who is  special   and  because it can be special  we like to point out  when it's crap


----------



## Flashman (Dec 27, 2009)

But that's the point it's New Doc innit, not the same thing at all. And there was plenty of shite in the old ones too. RTD is not lazy it's just impossible to please all.

Yes I'd like a bit more "Blink" and "Madame Pompiething" now again too but this is the end of the Tennant arc by RTD we were never gonna get that.

And anyway how was the last one not "dark" ffs!


----------



## Santino (Dec 27, 2009)

A lot of people wearing rose-tylered spectacles here.






Did you see what I are done there?


----------



## hektik (Dec 28, 2009)

I thought the first episode was really good, the finale was amazing, and I cannot wait for the 2nd half on Friday. The lead-up was a bit laboured, and I thought it could have done with some serious editing really - the whole bit about the master coming back, and his wife having some kind of poison to counteract his resurrection was confusing and pointless - could just as easily have had it just go wrong and be left in the same situation anyway. That whole part could have been simplified significantly with a good editor.

I also agree with the loudness of the music: it was difficult to hear what the actors were actually saying at some points.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 28, 2009)

andy2002 said:


> What I liked...
> * Simm's brilliantly over-the-top Master - now with super powers!
> * The scenes between the Doctor and Wilf, especially the one in the cafe.
> * The bit where the Doctor realises that there really is a 'drum beat' thumping away in the Master's head.
> ...



Yes, dammit. Focus on the positive - Simm's Master is akin to Sylar of late & more power to him. 

The Doctor being emotional. Not seen a hint of that since Davison.

The drum beat, tapping into the very heart of the ethos of the show. Clever writing by lately much maligned RTD.

Tate - love her or loathe her, she's been a welcome breath of fresh air into the show. Not the old style simpering, in peril companion.

Dalton - magnificent. Haven't seen him clearly loving a role since Hot Fuzz


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> who comes up with the idea  oh it's just for kids   let us let it be shit
> 
> that's just fucking lazy
> 
> *i loved doctor who as a child  and  part of the reason why  was   the darkness and seriousness of a lot of it... yes maybe   there was ham acting  and crap effects  but god damn it it felt like  they were trying hard to do some thing special ...* just like  some of the  new doctor who is  special   and  because it can be special  we like to point out  when it's crap



This, totally. /\/\/\


----------



## gnoriac (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> who comes up with the idea  oh it's just for kids   let us let it be shit
> 
> that's just fucking lazy
> 
> i loved doctor who as a child  and  part of the reason why  was   the darkness and seriousness of a lot of it... yes maybe   there was ham acting  and crap effects  but god damn it it felt like  they were trying hard to do some thing special ... just like  some of the  new doctor who is  special   and  because it can be special  we like to point out  when it's crap



Totally agree. Though I'd say it seems to be morphing into something expensive, celeb-ridden and bland, just like everything else on TV.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> the thing is  doctor who deosn't have to be camp and over the top  it  can be quiet dark and mysterious too
> 
> i mean  rather than all that hedious crap they did with the daleks moving planets or the final episode of the masters last appearance wouldn't  you prefer  another episode  like blink or silence in the library or going back further  something like  the curse of fenric



Here here. Apart from the fenric bit.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

i really like curse of fenric  i think it shows off how good some classic who is   without ever being flashy or over the top  

mind you i like battlefeild too


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> i really like curse of fenric  i think it shows off how good some classic who is   without ever being flashy or over the top
> 
> mind you i like battlefeild too



Well to be fair, i had given up on Dr Who by then so I have never seen it. It might be alright. I liked the dalek one I watched recently.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

never seen it!

fuck me we have to sort that out (goes to set up file server)


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 28, 2009)

I'll add it to the 'if it drops below 2.50 on amazon' list. I was burnt once by ghost light it's going to take me a while to recover from something like that.


----------



## fieryjack (Dec 28, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Hence the cushing ones are in the dustbin but the Paul Mgann one still stands


...in the corner, looking shamefully at its feet and thinking about what it did.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I'll add it to the 'if it drops below 2.50 on amazon' list. I was burnt once by ghost light it's going to take me a while to recover from something like that.



yeah ghost light is a bit hard to take.. it has a nice atmosphere at times but  the  wtf ending  is a real disapointment


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

fieryjack said:


> ...in the corner, looking shamefully at its feet and thinking about what it did.



even if they did some excedingly bad things  in the last  master outing  at least it's  far and away better than the shit they did in that one

worst master ever


----------



## colbhoy (Dec 28, 2009)

badlands said:


> In a brilliant twist the amazing Simms will be the next but one Doctor.
> 
> Factoid.
> 
> ...



I actually thought "y'know, he would make a good Doctor" whilst watching this episode.


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> i loved doctor who as a child  and  part of the reason why  was   the darkness and seriousness of a lot of it... yes maybe   there was ham acting  and crap effects  but god damn it it felt like  they were trying hard to do some thing special ... just like  some of the  new doctor who is  special   and  because it can be special  we like to point out  when it's crap


"This drama for eight-year-olds is not Dark and Serious like it was when _I_ was an eight-year-old."

The thing that has changed is _you_.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 28, 2009)

yes well, can your hopes cos the next doctor is the kid who I went to school with


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 28, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> yes well, can your hopes cos the next doctor is the kid who I went to school with


Since he's a Northampton lad, Alan Moore might finally, _finally_ be persuaded to write a Who episode. Set in Northampton.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 28, 2009)

Epic stand off between New Doc and the Master set atop the Express Lifts Tower


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Dec 28, 2009)

What do people suppose the chance of a non-injury regeneration, like the forced ones he's occasionally gone through in the past?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 28, 2009)

punkrockfaggot said:


> What do people suppose the chance of a non-injury regeneration, like the forced ones he's occasionally gone through in the past?



I'm going with epically wounded by the master, then Rassilon and his posse kick-start a regeneration.


----------



## pigtails (Dec 28, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm going with epically wounded by the master, then Rassilon and his posse kick-start a regeneration.



I think it's gonna be wilf that does it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

elevendayempire said:


> "This drama for eight-year-olds is not Dark and Serious like it was when _I_ was an eight-year-old."
> 
> The thing that has changed is _you_.



nope

i have them on VHS 

i've watched them again as an adult


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Dec 28, 2009)

Loved this, glad the time lords are back. A nice surprise.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm going with epically wounded by the master, then Rassilon and his posse kick-start a regeneration.



oh god it's not rassilion is it? that would be so bad

rasillion  is such a powerful  god like charactor i don't want hime fucked up


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 28, 2009)

punkrockfaggot said:


> What do people suppose the chance of a non-injury regeneration, like the forced ones he's occasionally gone through in the past?


The guys who wrote the old series were planning to have Sylvester McCoy regenerate 'cause he lost his mind, rather than suffering a bodily injury. He was going to regenerate locked up in a Hannibal Lecter mask - pretty damn good idea, if you ask me.


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> oh god it's not rassilion is it? that would be so bad
> 
> rasillion  is such a powerful  god like charactor i don't want hime fucked up









Rassilon was a fat old ham with a tiara on his head. I think your memories may be at variance with the reality.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 28, 2009)

i was more thinking of the books

rasillion is better left as a bit of a mystery  also making you wonder what his game plan is   like in the 5 doctors

as for the look .. should we mention the doctors own sartorial prowess?


plus he has a kick arse seal
http://www.postcardart.info/misc/rassilon.jpg


----------



## fen_boy (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm wondering if somehow the regeneration is going to involve the doctor part of Donna.


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 28, 2009)

Shippou-Chan said:


> i was more thinking of the books


The funny thing is just how much Davies has lifted from the books. The Time War, the destruction of Gallifrey and the Doctor as last survivor... the Christmas Invasion was pretty much a note-for-note rewrite of The Dying Days with the voodoo-skull-masked-aliens-who-use-blood-control a straight lift from Faction Paradox. Why yes, that _is_ where I got my username from...


----------



## Wilf (Dec 28, 2009)

Lord Camomile said:


> I haven't read the whole thread yet but I just searched it for "Matrix" and can't believe no-ones mentioned the obvious parrallels
> 
> The Master is Agent Smith, with the flying and the self-replicating, and The Doctor is Neo with the inevitable death.
> 
> Maybe Davies thought that most who had seen the Matrix sequels would have done their best to have any memory of it medically removed. Well I remember Russell, I remember...



I was thinking that too, yeah, the Matrix lot want their plotline back.  Whole thing seemed uncomfortably balanced between flashy superhero stuff and salt of the earth, human scale, knees up mother brown Londoners.  They usually manage that balance quite well, but this seemed a bit overboiled.  I have enjoyed it since they revived it and I'll watch the next part, just seemed like they were hurling every narrative and emotional strand they had into it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 29, 2009)

also



elevendayempire said:


> I think your memories may be at variance with the reality.



dare you say... "The Memory Cheats"?


----------



## scifisam (Dec 29, 2009)

I can't see that it nicked the plot from the Matrix. Having lots of clone-types is hardly something the Matrix has a monopoly on. 

AS pointed out that they were all Simms - hadn't noticed that. Wonder if the name inspired the storyline?


----------



## rollinder (Dec 29, 2009)

elevendayempire said:


> The guys who wrote the old series were planning to have Sylvester McCoy regenerate 'cause he lost his mind, rather than suffering a bodily injury. He was going to regenerate locked up in a Hannibal Lecter mask - pretty damn good idea, if you ask me.



except apparently the magazine completely made thatb it of *that* article up themselves shame that as it's a pretty cool idea


----------



## rollinder (Dec 29, 2009)

reposting from elsewhere (no point linking as it's a closed forum for invited members only)




			
				me over at Roobarb's dvd forum said:
			
		

> I thought it was wonderful (but can't vote yet - it won't let me)
> 
> Ok a bit crowded/disjointed setting things up but would it really be better as an 'original' series multi-episode that takes forever with next-to-nothing happening for episodes?
> 
> ...


----------



## Stigmata (Dec 29, 2009)




----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 29, 2009)

I enjoyed it, especially Simm's new MEAT obsession 

Still can't fucking stand Donna tho. 

Dalton and the appearance of the Time Lords made me go 'OOO' then LOL at their 1970s SF wardrobe. Hopefully someone will crack a funny about that. Hopefully Simm.


----------



## strung out (Dec 29, 2009)

rollinder said:


> except apparently the magazine completely made thatb it of *that* article up themselves shame that as it's a pretty cool idea



which magazine and which article?


----------



## rollinder (Dec 29, 2009)

strung_out said:


> which magazine and which article?



the official one, Doctor Who Magazine, back in the 90s - forget the article title but it was written looking back as if Sylvester McCoy's season 27 had actually happened (complete with mock radio times listings etc). They had him regenerating in a padded cell and turning into Richard Griffiths from Pie In The Sky


----------



## strung out (Dec 29, 2009)

ah right, i thought that's what you meant, but i just asked the editor of DWM and he couldn't recall it


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 29, 2009)

rollinder said:


> the official one, Doctor Who Magazine, back in the 90s - forget the article title but it was written looking back as if Sylvester McCoy's season 27 had actually happened (complete with mock radio times listings etc). They had him regenerating in a padded cell and turning into Richard Griffiths from Pie In The Sky


Much of the stuff in the article would've come to pass, though - Mike Tucker and Robert Perry had a script in for a Cybermen-in-the-Blitz story that they later turned into a Who novel. Ben Aaronovitch had some story about insect aliens called the Metatraxi (which would've opened with a pre-credits sequence in which Ace is a Captain Kirk-style starship commander), IIRC Marc Platt had a story about rival factions of Ice Warriors fighting it out in the 1950s, which would've ended with Ace buggering off to become a Time Lord(!). 

Oh, and the next companion was supposed to be... well, Lady Christina from the Planet of the Dead episode, basically. A posh thief. She was going to be seen as a baby in the preceding story, her dad was a gangland boss who sent her off to a posh school. Years later, she's breaking into a house, cracks open a safe... and finds Sylvester McCoy inside, God help her. "What took you so long?" he says? And... cue the credits.


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 29, 2009)

strung_out said:


> ah right, i thought that's what you meant, but i just asked the editor of DWM and he couldn't recall it


Not _that_ surprising, it was before Tom's time.


----------



## strung out (Dec 29, 2009)

he's got every issue since issue one though!

edit: i will cuss him for his lack of knowledge of 90s DWM issues


----------



## madzone (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm a bit worried I might cry


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Dec 30, 2009)

RTD has promised a real dark tear-jerker.


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Dec 31, 2009)

Can we has some Lol-tennants plz?


----------



## madzone (Jan 1, 2010)

What was the fucking point of that? That kids just doing a David Tennant impersonation.


----------



## gnoriac (Jan 1, 2010)

What was all that crap at the end for, visiting all his old chums? Would've been much better just to have karked it and regenerated in that control room thingy. Hopefully now Moffat's in charge we'll be rid of all this cheesy sentimental slop.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 1, 2010)

madzone said:


> I'm a bit worried I might cry



I did.  Lots.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

moomoo said:


> I did.  Lots.



I admit to shedding a few tears, too. I'm not so aloof, highbrow and all the rest that I can sneer at it like some of ye. It's a family entertainment programme, ffs


----------



## madzone (Jan 1, 2010)

moomoo said:


> I did. Lots.


 It was a struggle. Nearly caved in when Bernard Cribbins started to cry


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

I did too. But I'm an emo reck at the mo which helps not.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

Cribbins was great. Everyone was great. Yes, it was sentimental. So fucking what?


----------



## ginger_syn (Jan 1, 2010)

I think the point of all the sentimentality was to draw a line under those characters,so that in the new season we won't have to suffer martha et al turning up all over the place. Which was begining to grate.
Also have to say that was one of the best episodes so far, loved the fact that wilf got to knock four times didn't see that one coming


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

Oh, dear God.

It was claptrap.


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

madzone said:


> What was the fucking point of that? That kids just doing a David Tennant impersonation.



Once he's changed his undies.. alles klar.


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> Oh, dear God.
> 
> It was claptrap.




Turn over then.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 1, 2010)

gnoriac said:


> What was all that crap at the end for, visiting all his old chums? Would've been much better just to have karked it and regenerated in that control room thingy. Hopefully now Moffat's in charge we'll be rid of all this cheesy sentimental slop.


This. I looked at the clock and then at the TV guide when he got a few minutes into the endings and said 'how the fuck can they milk this for another ten minutes?' Good episode marred by tacked-on shitty endings.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

Rasillon! Romana, probably (although given that the Doctor looked at Donna when Wilf asked it may have been Susan)! I really rather enjoyed that, much better than last week, and Tennant and Simm were given space to actually act. Of course,Bernard Cribbens was superb.

Preview of next series is up here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/

Can't wait.


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

ginger_syn said:


> I think the point of all the sentimentality was to draw a line under those characters,so that in the new season we won't have to suffer martha et al turning up all over the place. Which was begining to grate.


Wouldn't have had to do that if some tasteless twerp had not insisted on resurrecting all the characters from time to time, even at the expense of rogering plotlines and "final" resolutions.

Adieu, Russel T Davies.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 1, 2010)

Dr Who is shit.


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

Flashman said:


> Turn over then.



What?

And waste seeing how all that license fee money squashes itself into RTD's trouser pocket?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Rasillon! Romana, probably (although given that the Doctor looked at Donna when Wilf asked it may have been Susan)! I really rather enjoyed that, much better than last week, and Tennant and Simm were given space to actually act. Of course,Bernard Cribbens was superb.
> 
> Preview of next series is up here:
> 
> ...



Watching the trailer and somehow, Pertwee springs to mind 

I think we're in for a real treat.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> Dr Who is shit.



You still watched it, all the same


----------



## belboid (Jan 1, 2010)

darned good finale, despite dragging the end out too long.  some absolutely cracking bits, loved the escape with him still tied to the chair.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jan 1, 2010)

belboid said:


> darned good finale, despite dragging the end out too long.  some absolutely cracking bits, loved the escape with him still tied to the chair.



I giggled a lot at the "worst rescue ever!" line!


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

Fingers crossed for Doctor Who - The End Of Twats Moaning About How Shit Doctor Who Is Which Is Akin To Moaning About How Shit Corrie Is on the Corrie Thread It's Just a Big Laugh Get Over It FFS

But I doubt it.


----------



## belboid (Jan 1, 2010)

QueenOfGoths said:


> I giggled a lot at the "worst rescue ever!" line!



how could one not?


----------



## pboi (Jan 1, 2010)

shame the thread wasnt merged. 

poor mod


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

jer said:


> Watching the trailer and somehow, Pertwee springs to mind
> 
> I think we're in for a real treat.



Yeah, seems a bit Pertwee - he was always up for fisticuffs.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 1, 2010)

jer said:


> You still watched it, all the same



I wasn't. I am watching the New Years Concert from Vienna on BBC4.


----------



## pboi (Jan 1, 2010)

Cribbins is a king


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> What?
> 
> And waste seeing how all that license fee money squashes itself into RTD's trouser pocket?



What??

Without RTD there'd be no New Doctor. Have a fucking word with yourself.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

Flashman said:


> Fingers crossed for Doctor Who - The End Of Twats Moaning About How Shit Doctor Who Is Which Is Akin To Moaning About How Shit Corrie Is on the Corrie Thread It's Just a Big Laugh Get Over It FFS
> 
> But I doubt it.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jan 1, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Rasillon! Romana, probably (although given that the Doctor looked at Donna when Wilf asked *it may have been Susan*)! I really rather enjoyed that, much better than last week, and Tennant and Simm were given space to actually act. Of course,Bernard Cribbens was superb.
> 
> Preview of next series is up here:
> 
> ...



Interesting - I assumed it was Donna but then just increased my headache by wondering how Donna had got to Gallifrey


----------



## pboi (Jan 1, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> I wasn't. I am watching the New Years Concert from Vienna on BBC4.



fuck off out of the thread than bitchtit!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> I wasn't. I am watching the New Years Concert from Vienna on BBC4.



That was shit.

See? It's all relative when you think about it


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jan 1, 2010)

I thought it was pretty good, don't normally get that into programmes but a good dr who seems to do the trick. Not totally impressed by the new doctor however!


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jan 1, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> I wasn't. I am watching the New Years Concert from Vienna on BBC4.



Didi it have any regenerations or Bernard cribbins in it?


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jan 1, 2010)

Oh and Cribbins was great.


----------



## Augie March (Jan 1, 2010)

"I don't want to go."

As last lines go, that was a pretty damn good one. 

Great episode up until the last ten minutes. I understand Davies felt the need to draw a line under all these characters, but it probably wasn't really necessary.


----------



## Augie March (Jan 1, 2010)

TrippyLondoner said:


> Not totally impressed by the new doctor however!



Give the boy a chance.


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

Flashman said:


> What??
> 
> Without RTD there'd be no New Doctor. Have a fucking word with yourself.


I did.

And I somehow failed to convince myself that RTD was anything other than a second rate writer with a first rate budget and CGI.

Long live Steve Moffat - a writer's writer.


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jan 1, 2010)

Augie March said:


> Give the boy a chance.



I will, but for some reason i started thinking, 'fuck, its this generations Colin Baker'.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

Augie March said:


> Give the boy a chance.



Coming up next; the Steven Moffat backlash


----------



## belboid (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> Long live Steve Moffat - a writer's writer.



you'll be slagging him off within three episodes.....


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

TrippyLondoner said:


> I will, but for some reason i started thinking, 'fuck, its this generations Colin Baker'.



The new assistant could be the sexiest since Perri, mind


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

TrippyLondoner said:


> I will, but for some reason i started thinking, 'fuck, its this generations Colin Baker'.


Oh God - or worse, Silvester McCoy...


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> I did.
> 
> And I somehow failed to convince myself that RTD was anything other than a second rate writer with a first rate budget and CGI.
> 
> Long live Steve Moffat - a writer's writer.



But without RTD there's no Doctor Who and no Moffat writing "Blink" et al, and the new series.

You really haven't thought this one through have you.


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> Oh God - or worse, Silvester McCoy...



I liked Mccoy, he got some very shit stories to work with though.


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

TrippyLondoner said:


> I liked Mccoy, he got some very shit stories to work with though.



No he didn't old Dr WHo woz brilliant u cunt


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

TrippyLondoner said:


> I liked Mccoy, he got some very shit stories to work with though.



I still reckon his greatest moment was in the 1996 film, mind.


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

belboid said:


> you'll be slagging him off within three episodes.....


Pish.

I have met Steven Moffat and can promise you that few TV writers have as much imagination in their entire heads as SM has in a casually frozen verruca.


----------



## AverageJoe (Jan 1, 2010)

Just watched the trailer for the next series.

I am interested. Deffo. Reminds me of Jon Pertwee, and a little dash of Gordon Ramsey oddly enough (but that might be just how he looks. or my wonky eyes)

And he punches someone *and* fires a gun in the trailer, thus instantly distancing himself from DT.

Cant wait


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

Flashman said:


> But without RTD there's no Doctor Who and no Moffat writing "Blink" et al, and the new series.
> 
> You really haven't thought this one through have you.


You keep thinking of time as a linear cause and effect thing.

In fact it's a greeat big squishy ball of timey-wimey stuff...


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

AverageJoe said:


> Just watched the trailer for the next series.
> 
> I am interested. Deffo. Reminds me of Jon Pertwee, and a little dash of Gordon Ramsey oddly enough (but that might be just how he looks. or my wonky eyes)
> 
> ...



Looks mint


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jan 1, 2010)

The trailer for the new series looks good - I think I spotted a couple of "Blink" statues and Alex Kingston in there


----------



## Flashman (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> You keep thinking of time as a linear cause and effect thing.
> 
> In fact it's a greeat big squishy ball of timey-wimey stuff...



I bet you feed your kids horrid green shite instead of meat.


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

TrippyLondoner said:


> I liked Mccoy, he got some very shit stories to work with though.


Silvester McCoy was a dangling polyp in the preening pantheon of Mr Universe Doctors.

Sorry.


----------



## belboid (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> Pish.
> 
> I have met Steven Moffat and can promise you that few TV writers have as much imagination in their entire heads as SM has in a casually frozen verruca.



make that two episodes...


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jan 1, 2010)

Flashman said:


> No he didn't old Dr WHo woz brilliant u cunt


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

QueenOfGoths said:


> The trailer for the new series looks good - I think I spotted a couple of "Blink" statues and Alex Kingston in there


Me too.

So Steven Moffat will drag this mawkish claptrap into the dappled Elysian uplands of pure Doctrish pleasure, leaving a damp, dark RTD gravel pit of spent squibs.


----------



## belboid (Jan 1, 2010)

you are gonne get _so_ disappointed


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 1, 2010)

Anyone else not freak out a bit when Wilf knocked four times?

I was like  "Russel T Davis you cheeky fucker."

And the ensuing scene of the Dr going nuts over facing his own death wasn't so much tear-jerking as it was the tear-police coming round and beating them out of you with bags full of starving blind kittens.


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

belboid said:


> make that two episodes...


I rather think his creative canon extends beyond two blisteringly unforgettable episodes of Dr Who.

Certainly Saint Russell seemed to think so...


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

belboid said:


> you are gonne get _so_ disappointed


NEVER!!!!!!!!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

Limejuice said:


> Silvester McCoy was a dangling polyp in the preening pantheon of Mr Universe Doctors.
> 
> Sorry.



I think it was down to the direction JNT had taken the show; it was at the time, much unloved but by the select few.

McCoy could have been so much better. Interestingly, one of his contemporaries, the late Ken Campbell auditioned for the role but apparently, JNT and co. found his interpretation a bit too dark. I think he would have been perfect


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

punkrockfaggot said:


> Anyone else not freak out a bit when Wilf knocked four times?
> 
> I was like  "Russel T Davis you cheeky fucker."
> 
> And the ensuing scene of the Dr going nuts over facing his own death wasn't so much tear-jerking as it was the tear-police coming round and beating them out of you with bags full of starving blind kittens.



Yep. For all the grief he gets - we tend to forget those moments of genius. It is his time but he did alright.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jan 1, 2010)

punkrockfaggot said:


> Anyone else not freak out a bit when Wilf knocked four times?
> 
> I was like  "Russel T Davis you cheeky fucker."
> 
> And the ensuing scene of the Dr going nuts over facing his own death wasn't so much tear-jerking as it was the tear-police coming round and beating them out of you with bags full of starving blind kittens.



I liked the fact that it kind of didn't register at first and then i thought "OMG". Quite clever, I feel


----------



## Limejuice (Jan 1, 2010)

jer said:


> I think it was down to the direction JNT had taken the show; it was at the time, much unloved but by the select few.
> 
> McCoy could have been so much better. Interestingly, one of his contemporaries, the late Ken Campbell auditioned for the role but apparently, JNT and co. found his interpretation a bit too dark. I think he would have been perfect


I like Ken Campbell, actually.

Maybe it was Bonnie Thingy I hated?

Oh, it was so long ago and so pre-CGI...


----------



## Augie March (Jan 1, 2010)

AverageJoe said:


> Just watched the trailer for the next series.
> 
> I am interested. Deffo. Reminds me of Jon Pertwee, and a little dash of Gordon Ramsey oddly enough (but that might be just how he looks. or my wonky eyes)
> 
> ...



It does look rather good indeed and I noticed the Blink statues are going to return.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

I liked the fact that the Doctor died saving one old man rather than preventing THE END OF TIME AND ALL CREATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I liked that there was some redemption for the Master. A nice wee touch was the mention of Donna's dad, in story because it was a kind thing for Sylvia to hear, and in real life because the actor playing him died.

I'll watch it again later to try and count the number of things [strike]ripped of from[/strike] paying homage to Star Trek and Star Wars.


----------



## editor (Jan 1, 2010)

Loved the "Worst. Rescue. Ever" line!


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jan 1, 2010)

editor said:


> Loved the "Worst. Rescue. Ever" line!



Yeah.


----------



## gnoriac (Jan 1, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I'll watch it again later to try and count the number of things [strike]ripped of from[/strike] paying homage to Star Trek and Star Wars.



The Interplanetary Cafe scene was a tad  blatant.


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 1, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I'll watch it again later to try and count the number of things [strike]ripped of from[/strike] paying homage to Star Trek and Star Wars.



As much as I was crying my eyes out all through the scene, I would I think have been pissed off at the Doc doing a Spok.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

gnoriac said:


> The Interplanetary Cafe scene was a tad  blatant.



Aye, and it went a bit Millennium Falcon at one point.


----------



## pboi (Jan 1, 2010)

*link of cantina*


----------



## cybertect (Jan 1, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> although given that the Doctor looked at Donna when Wilf asked it may have been Susan



Both mrs c and I had that thought. 

The cast credit was 'The Woman'


----------



## madzone (Jan 1, 2010)

Who's susan?


----------



## cybertect (Jan 1, 2010)

She was the 'granddaughter' of the Hartnell Doctor.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

madzone said:


> Who's susan?



The Doctor's granddaughter, and companion, from right back in 1963.


----------



## madzone (Jan 1, 2010)

Oh, I see. I thought it was his Mother


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 1, 2010)

It wasn't any shitter than the first part I suppose. Actually it was a bit less shit as it didn't have "mysteriously bionic Master" (or at least, not so much mysteriously bionic Master) and "omg doctor you're late but you have a time machine oh well let's make something up so that doesn't matter" in it.


----------



## cybertect (Jan 1, 2010)

madzone said:


> Oh, I see. I thought it was his Mother



Maybe you're right?

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6959368.ece



> Now, at 78, she has been regenerated as a mysterious character in the two-part Christmas Doctor Who, which will mark the end of David Tennant’s stint as the Time Lord. The level of secrecy surrounding the programmes is such that when I arrive at Bloom’s neat terraced house in West London at the same time as the programme’s PR, I have to make myself scarce upstairs for a few minutes so that the PR can brief Bloom on what she can and cannot reveal about her role.
> 
> There have been reports that she is playing the Doctor’s mother. “Possibly his mother, possibly not,” Bloom says when I am allowed back downstairs. “Someone who appears and basically gives him the bad news. A seer, a prophetess. Also she is somehow there as a protectress. But that’s more in what I tried to do than in the script. The scripts are very, very complicated.”


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 1, 2010)

You know how the Doctor always checks to make sure he's humanoid?

I really want to do a spoof, where we use the original Tennant-to-Smith regeneration, with all the soppiness, but then he regenerates into 

http://www.breederretriever.com/photopost/data/696/black-english-cocker-spaniel.jpg


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

madzone said:


> Oh, I see. I thought it was his Mother



It could have been - it's just one thing left behind for Steven Moffat to pick up on and do with as he sees fit in future years. I think the extended coda was a farewell to the other characters, but this one is conspicuously left open ended. See also River Song.

ETA: come to think of it there was another female Timelord who dissented and got zapped for it. I wonder if that was Romana? Hmmm, can I risk a visit to Outpost Gallifrey or whatever its called these days.  *fights temptation*


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 1, 2010)

Jack's going to be back- they're filming a new series of Torchwood.

And can anyone explain to me 

A: The reason for the drums in the Masters head- who put it there?

B: If there's good reason that the timelords will come back?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

punkrockfaggot said:


> A: The reason for the drums in the Masters head- who put it there?



The Timelords? It was in the show and everything.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 1, 2010)

punkrockfaggot said:


> B: If there's good reason that the timelords will come back?



I reckon that's open-ended too. They're stuck back in the time lock but are trying to get out and the Master is also there with them now, so I imagine they'll be able to figure something out if the story demands it.


----------



## badlands (Jan 1, 2010)

Liked it for the Billie Piper moment.

Russell T knew he couldn't top the departure scene previous.

So he didn't bother.


----------



## fieryjack (Jan 1, 2010)

jer said:


> Yep. For all the grief he gets - we tend to forget those moments of genius


Jesus _Christ_ some people have low bars set for genius. That was a terrible, terrible last duet; it's what happens when you surround yourself with a coterie of smug self-congratulators and clown-shoed meedja types. RTD dismissed his own risible plot early in the episode and spent the rest of the time saying goodbye to himself. Woeful mis-use of all involved

Just dreadful.

I hope the new chap can make a break from this forced mania stuff, don't want a reprise in Tennant-as-a-teenager style. He looks interesting, I'm hopeful, and thoroughly glad RTD has gone, albeit a season or so too late.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jan 1, 2010)

badlands said:


> Liked it for the Billie Piper moment.
> 
> Russell T knew he couldn't top the departure scene previous.
> 
> So he didn't bother.



He did for the sake of series four.

As some have suggested, the slate has been wiped clean for the new boss. Old characters bid farewell, new titles, new tardis interior, even a new scale for the action figures (much to my distress). The only links being the mystery woman (Susan? His Daughter? Romana? Ace?) and his wifey to be.


----------



## Espresso (Jan 1, 2010)

Of course the most serious issue surrounding the new Doctor is - what's he going to wear?
Seeing as no one in real life is quite as alarmingly skinny as David Tennant, I was half expecting an Incredible Hulk sort of a transformation, wherein the new, regenerated Doctor was going to burst out of that teeny weeny blue suit in all directions. Sad to say, I was thwarted in this. 

Eccleston wore a leather jacket and jeans. Tennant had a blue suit and a great big long coat. I say Smith should wear a hoody and those gravity defying trousers that hang off the lower part of the arses/top of the thighs of the youth by means of a belt that surely must involve lower bumular piercings for the beltloops. Especially if The Doctor is going to be doing a lot of running around while he's defending all the galaxies.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 1, 2010)

fieryjack said:


> Jesus _Christ_ some people have low bars set for genius. That was a terrible, terrible last duet; it's what happens when you surround yourself with a coterie of smug self-congratulators and clown-shoed meedja types. RTD dismissed his own risible plot early in the episode and spent the rest of the time saying goodbye to himself. Woeful mis-use of all involved
> 
> Just dreadful.



Jesus Christ, some people have too high expectations for a simple family show 
That's what happens when you grow up and hang onto mislplaced nostalgia, I reckon.


----------



## editor (Jan 2, 2010)

Here's a trailer for the new series:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 2, 2010)

editor said:


> Here's a trailer for the new series:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/



And how rich it looks


----------



## fieryjack (Jan 2, 2010)

jer said:


> Jesus Christ, some people have too high expectations for a simple family show
> That's what happens when you grow up and hang onto mislplaced nostalgia, I reckon.


*sigh*


----------



## Iguana (Jan 2, 2010)

Some of it was crap, some was excellent, overall it was pretty good.  My favourite moment was how the Doctor redeemed Jack at the end.  It was such an important necessary scene but done with such a light touch, really brilliant.  

It's amazing how when he wants to RTD can be so, so subtle, yet he so often goes for a great big bang in your face.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 2, 2010)

Christ it was like a lord of the rings style goodbye.


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 2, 2010)

Iguana said:


> Some of it was crap, some was excellent, overall it was pretty good.  My favourite moment was how the Doctor redeemed Jack at the end.  It was such an important necessary scene but done with such a light touch, really brilliant.
> 
> It's amazing how when he wants to RTD can be so, so subtle, yet he so often goes for a great big bang in your face.



 Yeah I liked that. I think it helped that jack still had his sad face on and especially since its heavily hinted that the doctor was aware of the children of earth.  
Did anyone else notice rassilon refer to those who voted against as the weeping angels of old? Interesting as he has turned people to stone before.


----------



## pboi (Jan 2, 2010)

who was the lady to the left of timothy dalton who revealed her face


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 2, 2010)

pboi said:


> who was the lady to the left of timothy dalton who revealed her face



We don't know.


----------



## pboi (Jan 2, 2010)

more intrigue!!


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2010)

pboi said:


> who was the lady to the left of timothy dalton who revealed her face


 *goes to pet hates thread to add 'People who don't read the whole fucking thread before posting' *


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 2, 2010)

pboi said:


> who was the lady to the left of timothy dalton who revealed her face



Doctors mummy I bet.


----------



## pboi (Jan 2, 2010)

was she talking to Cribbins earlier in the episode?

Or was I pissed?


Sorry Madz


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2010)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Doctors mummy I bet.


 That's what I thought


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2010)

pboi said:


> was she talking to Cribbins earlier in the episode?
> 
> Or was I pissed?
> 
> ...


Yes she was. Yes you were. Accepted.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jan 2, 2010)

Iguana said:


> My favourite moment was how the Doctor redeemed Jack at the end.  It was such an important necessary scene but done with such a light touch, really brilliant.



Even if it has enraged us Ianto fans


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 2, 2010)

editor said:


> Here's a trailer for the new series:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/



Hummm, I was kind of all for him but in a couple of those shots he looks soooo young. Looks good in others though, I reckon it will be more of the same. I generally have not enjoyed any of the new stuff, and if I am honest with myself (and ignore my mountain of vintage who DVDs) the old stuff was pretty darn poor too. Still, there is just something about it. All of it I mean, new and old. 
My wife calls it our (English peoples) Ultraman (Japanese series and films that has been running since the 60s, main lead changes and it keeps going. Pretty darn nerdy but it's ok to like it, it's a family event).


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

OK, I don't have time to find out where comments on Part 2 start in this thread. Just tell me, what was up with that suicide booth/plot device? As [Abbott and Costello?] say in 'The Medicine Show', "One guy goes in, another guy comes out?" WT..?

Oh, and Darth Vader says "Always use the Green Cross Code"...


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

madzone said:


> *goes to pet hates thread to add 'People who don't read the whole fucking thread before posting' *


I resemble that remark...


----------



## MikeMcc (Jan 2, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> We don't know.


I reckon future Donna (or his grand-daughter)


----------



## Iguana (Jan 2, 2010)

CNT36 said:


> Yeah I liked that. I think it helped that jack still had his sad face on and especially since its heavily hinted that the doctor was aware of the children of earth.



Jack would still have had to have his sad face on.  After what he did to his family the only person who could ever allow him to move on was the Doctor.  Nice that it was done in such a simple scene.  The Doctor knew what had happened and told him it was ok to get on with his life and stop punishing himself.  Without that happening Jack would never forgive himself.


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2010)

Iguana said:


> Jack would still have had to have his sad face on. After what he did to his family the only person who could ever allow him to move on was the Doctor. Nice that it was done in such a simple scene. The Doctor knew what had happened and told him it was ok to get on with his life and stop punishing himself. Without that happening Jack would never forgive himself.


 And the character wouldn't be able to be in torchwood


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Shippou-Chan said:


> oh god it's not rassilion is it? that would be so bad
> 
> rasillion  is such a powerful  god like charactor i don't want hime fucked up


For some reason, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg raping Indiana Jones on 'South Park' springs to mind...


----------



## emanymton (Jan 2, 2010)

pboi said:


> was she talking to Cribbins earlier in the episode?
> 
> Or was I pissed?
> 
> ...



This is the real question, not who is she, how was she able to communicate outside of the time lock?


----------



## pboi (Jan 2, 2010)

the time lock?

man I dont know anything !

well I enjoyed it anyhoo


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

madzone said:


> What was the fucking point of that? That kids just doing a David Tennant impersonation.


Ah, but without eyebrows, or so it seemed to me. Strange, I'm sure I haven't seen anything that Matt Smith was in but he seemed strangely familiar in that scene...

The Tennant thing got on my wick, though. All that "There's so much I could do!!", and I'm just thinking, well, _you_ quit, David (we're on first name terms, me and DT). I wanted him to stay just so we could see what someone other than RTD could do with him, but I guess that was never happening.


----------



## fogbat (Jan 2, 2010)

What did the Doctor do to Donna, by the way, so that she can send out disabling energy pulses? And why isn't she dead after her memories returned?


----------



## emanymton (Jan 2, 2010)

What exactly was the point of Donna in the episodes anyway she had no impact on the plot, was it just to annoy me as I'm one of her haters?


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Yeah, seems a bit Pertwee - he was always up for fisticuffs.


Pertwee was an effete snob. And that's how he played the Doctor.


----------



## belboid (Jan 2, 2010)

fogbat said:


> What did the Doctor do to Donna, by the way, so that she can send out disabling energy pulses? And why isn't she dead after her memories returned?



because she blacked out first.



emanymton said:


> What exactly was the point of Donna in the episodes anyway she had no impact on the plot, was it just to annoy me as I'm one of her haters?





well, that's a good enough reason in my book  

There was no 'point', other than she's Wilfs grand-daughter and their point of connection.  And Wilf was kinda important


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

punkrockfaggot said:


> Anyone else not freak out a bit when Wilf knocked four times?


I just thought, how insensitive can you _be_. Wilf knew all about the four knocks thing, so why do that? I knock on a door three times, anyway. Who knocks four times, apart from Beethoven?

In retrospect, as with so much else, it all made sense, though. After all, it was drums, not knocks, in the Master's head, and he didn't 'knock' that oil drum, he _banged_ it. Someone had to actually _knock_...


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Augie March said:


> It does look rather good indeed and I noticed the Blink statues are going to return.


My wife thinks there's a connection between the 'grieving angels' and the objecting time lords, because Rassilon says something like, their shame will last for eternity..


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Jan 2, 2010)

fogbat said:


> And why isn't she dead after her memories returned?



At one point the Doctor slips in: "You didn't think I'd leave her without some kind of safety mechanism did you?" 

Convenient.


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

So, I'm up to speed now, and the question remains, what was _up_ with that booth? Why make a machine that you can't get out of until someone else gets in, unless it's meant to ensure that someone is on duty at all times? That, I could just about buy...

The idea of the Doctor not dying immediately, but tying up loose ends and doing a few chores reminded me of recent Superman comics, where he is fatally injured after having to fly into the sun. Not sure if he's even died yet (well, of course, he _won't_).


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Really rather self-indulgent, but had some nice moments and a couple of 'dusty' ones*  



*i.e. 'something in my eye, lump in the throat'...


----------



## Jenerys (Jan 2, 2010)

Nine Bob Note said:


> He did for the sake of series four.
> 
> As some have suggested, the slate has been wiped clean for the new boss. Old characters bid farewell....



I'd quite like to see a Mickey & Martha spin off show - they looked dead sexy


----------



## belboid (Jan 2, 2010)

Stardark said:


> So, I'm up to speed now, and the question remains, what was _up_ with that booth? Why make a machine that you can't get out of until someone else gets in, unless it's meant to ensure that someone is on duty at all times? That, I could just about buy...


there was some mention of somerthing like that in the first part, someone had to be controlling 'it' at every point



> The idea of the Doctor not dying immediately, but tying up loose ends and doing a few chores reminded me of recent Superman comics, where he is fatally injured after having to fly into the sun. Not sure if he's even died yet (well, of course, he _won't_).



who, Superman??  

Radiation does usually take a while to kill people, so I guess it should do with Timelords too...


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Jan 2, 2010)

The End Of Time was a load of Shite. Shame really...


----------



## marty21 (Jan 2, 2010)

finally watched this, quite enjoyed it , welled up at times, over indulgent, but enjoyable


----------



## Stigmata (Jan 2, 2010)

It was pretty good. Much stronger than any of RTD's previous part 2s. I hope they'll have him back to write the odd episode in future.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Jan 2, 2010)

well the bits from the new series look good. New logo and a new look tardis. Never really liked the old logo and tardis interior anyway.. And I thought Eccleston was better than Tennant.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2010)

I felt they milked it a bit at the end. He should have regenerated right after the deadly radiation poisoning rather than arsing around tying up loose end. Rassilon was defeated far to easily for my liking.

Still, not bad. 7/10


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 2, 2010)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> well the bits from the new series look good. New logo and a new look tardis. Never really liked the old logo and tardis interior anyway.. And I thought Eccleston was better than Tennant.



Eccleston was MUCH better than Tennant.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Jan 2, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> I felt they milked it a bit at the end. He should have regenerated right after the deadly radiation poisoning rather than arsing around tying up loose end. Rassilon was defeated far to easily for my liking.
> 
> Still, not bad. 7/10



It was incoherent, badly written, stupid, mawkishly sentimental, over acted with effects that are the digital equivalent of wobbly bits of cardboard. And worse its none of that in a remotely charming or fun way. At least the old Dr Who with terrible acting and effects had some decent plots that shone through. sadly this one was an RTD and Tennant ego trip.. You could see the actors trying to wring some interest out of the risible script. Yet they failed. So I am going to give it a 0.5/10


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 2, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> I felt they milked it a bit at the end. He should have regenerated right after the deadly radiation poisoning rather than arsing around tying up loose end. Rassilon was defeated far to easily for my liking.
> 
> Still, not bad. 7/10




What, and do a Spok?

"I always... was and... always... will... be your... friend."

As much as I wept, I fel like I've been bummed out of something by RTD in those last 15 minutes.


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 2, 2010)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> well the bits from the new series look good. New logo and a new look tardis. Never really liked the old logo and tardis interior anyway.. And I thought Eccleston was better than Tennant.



OH OH! Does the trashing of the tardis in EoT mean that we're going to get a new interior you think?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2010)

punkrockfaggot said:


> OH OH! Does the trashing of the tardis in EoT mean that we're going to get a new interior you think?



new doc often gets new interior. Tis traditional.

e2a it's probably to do with the psychic link between Time Lord and TARDIS. The Masters TARDIS's (when he had one) were always darker and less friendly looking than say, the old white walls and roundels look


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 2, 2010)

I've just realised- It's RTD who decided that the era of middle-aged, grumpy podgy Doctors is over... and now he's fucked off!

*YES!*


----------



## Rollem (Jan 2, 2010)

marty21 said:


> finally watched this, quite enjoyed it , welled up at times, over indulgent, but enjoyable


 made my 5year old cry "but i dont like his new face"  - inclined to agree at the minute....


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2010)

Rollem said:


> made my 5year old cry "but i dont like his new face"  - inclined to agree at the minute....



I'm feeling the old School Spirit and totally rooting for him to be ace.


----------



## Rollem (Jan 2, 2010)

oh i hope he is ace too, just can't get past him seeming a bit young at the mo....


----------



## belboid (Jan 2, 2010)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> It was incoherent,


only if you were drunk for the first part! it was all perfectly coherent.  you're wrong about the rest too (well, except for it being overly sentimental), but thats all opinion, so what the hey.


----------



## hektik (Jan 2, 2010)

it was....alright. The main storyline was decent enough, but the resolution felt that it was too easy - given that the doctor was terrified of the return of the timelords, and the power that they had, the fact that they were beaten by the doctor simply shooting the machine that made the link seemed a bit too easy. 

On the other hand, I thought the fact that the master realised that there was no space for him in rassilon's vision of the future, and decided to help out the doctor was really well done, and the acting in that part made up for all the mugging that john simm had done previously. and the fact that the doctor sacrificed himself for one good person was much better than him dying saving the whole of the universe.

but the death scene was so self-indulgent it ruined the rest of the episode - it had more endings than the 3rd instalment of LOTR. and must surely go down as the longest death scene ever.


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> It was incoherent, badly written, stupid, mawkishly sentimental, over acted with effects that are the digital equivalent of wobbly bits of cardboard. And worse its none of that in a remotely charming or fun way. At least the old Dr Who with terrible acting and effects had some decent plots that shone through. sadly this one was an RTD and Tennant ego trip.. You could see the actors trying to wring some interest out of the risible script. Yet they failed. So I am going to give it a 0.5/10


You said it all with 'load of Shite', but good point about losing the plot. I don't know if anyone would agree, but aside from the Christmas specials and the tendency for various episodes to contribute to a sub-plot (super-plot?) which would be revealed in the series finale, the thing that spoiled Tennant's run was the way it ended, after the announcement that he was leaving. Was it the height of hubris to ditch the normal scheduling format and have these (slightly) better budgeted whatever-they-weres (*not* Christmas specials?) every few months, or half a year? It underlined an impression that both Tennant and RTD thought _they_ were a bit more 'special' than what had gone before, and left a bad taste in the mouth, not unlike when Christopher Eccleston announced after his first series that he was leaving, so you couldn't believe he had his heart in it for the second one. 'Course, the format change might have been someone else's bright idea, if so, soz guys...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

As someone who hasn't caught all the spin-offs, could someone please explain the significance of the Jack/Alonso ending? Reading the thread I gather it was something to do with the Torchwood week-long special?


----------



## strung out (Jan 2, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> new doc often gets new interior. Tis traditional.
> 
> e2a it's probably to do with the psychic link between Time Lord and TARDIS. The Masters TARDIS's (when he had one) were always darker and less friendly looking than say, the old white walls and roundels look



yeah, new look tardis for matt smith. it's huuuuuge. i think there are some pictures knocking around on the internet somewhere. apparently, the set for the hub from torchwood was directly behind the tardis set, and they've knocked all of that down to make room for the new tardis.

someone pointed out to me that a possible reason for tennant's explosive regeneration was that he'd been dying slowly and holding back his regeneration as long as possible in order to get all his shit in order. this led to fire and explosions etc when he finally did regenerate.


----------



## cascader (Jan 2, 2010)

I thought it was a good ending, although I could have lived without the roundup of all the old characters they wanted to draw a line under.  I thought that was a bit self-indulgent.  I did find it moving when Wilf started knocking, though.  That was a nice touch.

I really can't see why so many reviewers have commented on Matt Smith's 'delicate features' when they mention the "Aaargh!  I'm a girl!" line.  He has a jaw like a shovel.


----------



## strung out (Jan 2, 2010)

Stardark said:


> not unlike when Christopher Eccleston announced after his first series that he was leaving, so you couldn't believe he had his heart in it for the second one.


i think you'll find that eccleston decided very very early on that he was only going to do one season. i think he'd pretty much agreed it with the writers before they even started the filming.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh, and isn't it generally held that the Doctor takes a while to remember who he is when he regenerates?


----------



## Tacita (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> As someone who hasn't caught all the spin-offs, could someone please explain the significance of the Jack/Alonso ending? Reading the thread I gather it was something to do with the Torchwood week-long special?



Ianto was touted as Cpn Jack's true love. Ianto died. Uproar ensued on the fansites with fanboy spats aplenty. Jack has clearly moved on.


----------



## strung out (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Oh, and isn't it generally held that the Doctor takes a while to remember who he is when he regenerates?



not quite. there's usually a bit of mental and physical trauma with each regeneration, but usually (not always though) he knows who he is, even if he is a bit mental


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Stardark said:


> and the tendency for various episodes to contribute to a sub-plot (super-plot?) which would be revealed in the series finale


Not that that was confined to Tennant's run, of course, but it was a factor.

Another thing that probably didn't help was the inevitable build-up. I first started watch 'Doctor Who' during Pertwee's arc, and the regeneration came as a complete surprise to me, even a blow. Fortunately, Tom Baker was such a star turn that it turned out all right. I was reading papers and hearing gossip about Peter Davison taking over for the next one, so that was the end of my innocence. Now, it's all spoilers and firsts (first black assistant, first kiss, first 'gay' kiss), and the production crew have to dream up red herrings to retain some element of mystery. Maybe it could be argued that the kind of spectacularly, meaningful, fateful death the prophesy was building up to _would_ have been too predictable, and and this was the universe's attempt at bathos.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Tacita said:


> Ianto was touted as Cpn Jack's true love. Ianto died. Uproar ensued on the fansites with fanboy spats aplenty. Jack has clearly moved on.


 Who the hell is Ianto? And also, wasn't Alonso one of the guys who died on the boat? Or something?  Me and this bloody series...  



strung_out said:


> not quite. there's usually a bit of mental and physical trauma with each regeneration, but usually (not always though) he knows who he is, even if he is a bit mental


 Fair enough, as has been made painfully clear my memory on these things is not the best...


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

strung_out said:


> i think you'll find that eccleston decided very very early on that he was only going to do one season. i think he'd pretty much agreed it with the writers before they even started the filming.


I'll take your word for it that I _would_ find that if I cared to look 

Still, just MO, but if I was producer of the re-launch of 'Doctor Who', I'd have wanted to sign up an actor who could commit to more than one season. Maybe RTD was just that desperate to get Eccleston in the role, because it was his vision (they've worked together before, I think?), but one season (was it really just one?) made 'DW' look a little flimsy. like Claire in 'Heroes' looks a little bit accident-prone when she just happens to be able to recover from fatal injuries.

Speaking of which, I've only see Ecclestone playing Claude Rains in 'Heroes' since 'DW', so if he was worried about being typecast (as I recall he was), I think he could have risked that one extra series, rather than being seen as flighty instead...


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Who the hell is Ianto. And also, wasn't Alonso one of the guy's who died on the boat? Or something?  Me and this bloody series...


Ianto (Jones?) was Cap Jack's Welsh rarebit in Torchwood. Poisoned by gas in 'Children Of Earth'.

Alonso was the [sailor?] in the 'canteena' with Jack. No, the actor's name has completely gone, but he was John Thingy in 'Little Dorrit', and the werewolf in 'Being Human'.


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Russell Tovey!! (OK, I looked it up)


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Stardark said:


> Ianto (Jones?) was Cap Jack's Welsh rarebit in Torchwood. Poisoned by gas in 'Children Of Earth'.


 Oooh, I think I know who you mean. Did not realise there was a romantic storyline twixt the two though. That RTD, he's a cheeky lad...



Stardark said:


> Alonso was the [sailor?] in the 'canteena' with Jack. No, the actor's name has completely gone, but he was John Thingy in 'Little Dorrit', and the werewolf in 'Being Human'.


 Yeah, I recognised him from Being Human, but I thought he died in a previous episode of Dr. Who. Apparently not.


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Yeah, I recognised him from Being Human, but I thought he died in a previous episode of Dr. Who. Apparently not.


I haven't checked, but I think you might be right about that. I was wondering what boat you meant...

Edit: I think he survived, though.


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Yep, Midshipman Alonso Frame.

From 'Voyage Of The Damned'.


----------



## Balbi (Jan 2, 2010)

Hmmmmm, a bit twatty - but sufficient for me 

Now fuck off T. Davies


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Stardark said:


> Yep, Midshipman Alonso Frame.
> 
> From 'Voyage Of The Damned'.


The mystery is solved


----------



## marty21 (Jan 2, 2010)

Stardark said:


> Russell Tovey!! (OK, I looked it up)



there was a rumour that he was going to be the next Dr Who


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

I believe he was touted as RTD's choice. Which wouldn't really have made sense, but not doubt there would have been some sic-fi mumbo-jumbo to explain it.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 2, 2010)

i liked it a lot and was transfixed through most of it even tho there was a fair few corny bits
tidy

i knows where moffat lives n all so can go round and pass on you thoughts if he ain't pulling his weight with the scripts


----------



## punkrockfaggot (Jan 2, 2010)

If you go on Iplayer, around 18 min.5 mins in there's Berbard fucking Cribben's tommy cooper inpression. I lolled


----------



## Iguana (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Who the hell is Ianto?



It's nothing much to do with Ianto, some fanboys just want it to be.  

If you are sure you won't want to watch Children of Earth, which is fantastic and way better than any episode of Doctor Who there is a very brief synopsis here.  



Spoiler: CoE



Ianto was a member of Torchwood who was having an affair with Jack.  Jack did love Ianto but not like Ianto loved him as Jack is pretty much immortal and has loved and will love many people throughout his long, long life.  As he loved his former wife with whom he had a daughter Alice who is now in her late 30s.  Ianto dies in the second last part of the week long special when Jack calls the bluff of the aliens who want to take 10% of the world's children.  The last time they came to earth in the 60's Jack gave them the children they wanted.  The aliens then kill everyone in the building and Jack and Ianto die together, shortly after which Jack comes back to life, as he does after each death.

In the last episode Jack works out a way to stop the aliens but must sacrifice a child to do so.  As it always is on tv, time is of the essence and the only child in the vicinity is Alice's son, Jack's grandson, Stephen.  Alice realises what this means and begins screaming.  Jack hardens himself has Alice removed and stops the aliens but causes Stephen to die horribly.  Afterward he tries to explain why he had to do what he did to Alice who understand but she doesn't forgive him she gets up and walks away.  Jack is wracked with guilt and he leaves the earth, guilt-ridden and broken.



At the end of End of Time the Doctor looks at him and in that look tells him he knows what he did and that he understands.  And the Doctor is the only person Jack knows who could ever really understand.  By giving him Alonso's name he is forgiving him and telling him it is ok to still enjoy his life.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Iguana said:


> It's nothing much to do with Ianto, some fanboys just want it to be.
> 
> If you are sure you won't want to watch Children of Earth, which is fantastic and way better than any episode of Doctor Who there is a very brief synopsis here.
> 
> ...


 Cheers, but, y'know, woah 

Does make the ending a little more meaningful though.


----------



## MrA (Jan 2, 2010)

I thought the ending sequence was pants, Dr.Who should be a double hard bastard when he's about to snuff it. Not poncing about with a mush like a slapped arse.


----------



## Iguana (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Cheers, but, y'know, woah
> 
> Does make the ending a little more meaningful though.



Yeah, Children of Earth was gut-wrenching impossible to believe that it was written by the same guy who ended Rose's arc by giving her, her very own mortal Doctor to play house with.  

It also had some great political scenes including a very frank discussion by the Cabinet about how if they must give some aliens 10% of their children they will give them the plebs as 'what else are school league tables for?'  And a very disturbing shot of a child's bedroom door behind which Peter Capaldi kills his family and then himself.


----------



## Sweaty Betty (Jan 2, 2010)

Didnt see it, but hope to christ it was better than the gavin and Stacey final episode!!!  dissapointed!


----------



## Balbi (Jan 2, 2010)

Watched it again, and properly teared up at 'I don't want to go'....


----------



## MrA (Jan 2, 2010)

Balbi said:


> Watched it again, and properly teared up at 'I don't want to go'....



It's a puppet!!!!!!


----------



## Bungle73 (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> I believe he was touted as RTD's choice. Which wouldn't really have made sense, but not doubt there would have been some sic-fi mumbo-jumbo to explain it.



It wouldn't have been the first time an actor that had appeared as another character in the series had gone on to play the Doctor.  Colin Baker actually shot Peter Davison's Doctor in one episode!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Bungle73 said:


> It wouldn't have been the first time an actor that had appeared as another character in the series had gone on to play the Doctor.  Colin Baker actually shot Peter Davison's Doctor in one episode!


 What?!?!


----------



## Doppelgänger (Jan 2, 2010)

Bungle73 said:


> It wouldn't have been the first time an actor that had appeared as another character in the series had gone on to play the Doctor.  Colin Baker actually shot Peter Davison's Doctor in one episode!



It was in "arc of Infinity"- another Timelord story funnily enough.

BTW, I thought the latest Doctor Who wasa load of old guff, mirroring what many others thought.


----------



## Bungle73 (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> What?!?!



Colin Baker played a character that shot Peter Davison's Doctor.   Seems simple enough to me.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> What?!?!


 Wait, let me do that again:

What? What...?

WHAT?!!



See, I am doing David Tennant. See?


----------



## Stardark (Jan 2, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> See, I am doing David Tennant. See?


That _has_ to be the gayest thing I've ever heard! 

See, now _I'm_ doing Nathan from 'Misfits'. And he's doing Matt Damon. It's a whole doing thing...


----------



## strung out (Jan 3, 2010)

Doppelgänger said:


> BTW, I thought the latest Doctor Who wasa load of old guff, mirroring what many others thought.



i thought it was pretty good, mirroring what many others thought. see what i did there?


----------



## Tacita (Jan 3, 2010)

Iguana said:


> It's nothing much to do with Ianto, some fanboys just want it to be.
> 
> At the end of End of Time the Doctor looks at him and in that look tells him he knows what he did and that he understands.  And the Doctor is the only person Jack knows who could ever really understand.  By giving him Alonso's name he is forgiving him and telling him it is ok to still enjoy his life.



That's a better answer than mine 



Stardark said:


> See, now _I'm_ doing Nathan from 'Misfits'. And he's doing Matt Damon. It's a whole doing thing...


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

I didn't understand these episodes.  They were too long, and not enough happened, and what did happen didn't make sense.

What happened to the Master?
Why did the Time Lords look so unimpressive?
Where did they come from?  (I thought they were all dead).
What the Hell was the diamond all about?
Why didn't the Dr die when he fell through the roof from a space craft?
What the fuck was the two door cabinet thing all about?

And other questions.

And enough with the Breathless quote already.  Drop them in, but don't labour them.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

What happened to the Master? - He's now trapped in the Time Lock thingy along with the Gallifreyans, Daleks and all the other protagonists of the Time War
Why did the Time Lords look so unimpressive? - Retro 70s SF BBC costumes
Where did they come from? (I thought they were all dead). - Locked in time, see above.
What the Hell was the diamond all about? - Those diamonds only come from Gallifrey
Why didn't the Dr die when he fell through the roof from a space craft? - _qui pense?_
What the fuck was the two door cabinet thing all about? No, missed that one completely.

I missed the first 15/20 mins of pt2, so presumably you got a lot of Rassilon and an explanation of the gauntlet thingy? 2nd ep was quite disappointing TBH, was expecting more from it...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

I just took the gauntlet to be a nod towards the Hand of Omega.


----------



## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

i thought it was good how it turns out it was the doctor who offed the timelords all along


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

He hasn't 'offed' any of them tho. In fact, the ending 



Spoiler: Dr who



pretty much sets up a return for everyone involved in the Time War. Daleks, Time Lords, The Master. All it'll take is for someone else to unlock the TimeLock (tm) thingy again and booyakasha! the Dr is gonna have to deal with whoever's left in there. Could the Master become Master of Gallifrey? Could the Time Lords _get off their home planet_ before it slags? Whither Dalek? It's all in there


----------



## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

well yeah, i didn't mean 'off' as in kill, i meant 'offed' as in got rid of them


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

There's another escape route other than the masters 4 knocks as well. If you recall Dalek KHAAAAAAAN! escaped the Time Lock. So it's not a totally sealed bubble.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> I didn't understand these episodes.  They were too long, and not enough happened, and what did happen didn't make sense.


I agree, I thought it was pretty poor to be honest, I hope the next season picks up as I think the last couple of years it has been on the decline. Nevertheless I will try to answer your questions.


danny la rouge said:


> What happened to the Master?


I don't know I can't remember 


danny la rouge said:


> Why did the Time Lords look so unimpressive?


 Bad costume design


danny la rouge said:


> Where did they come from?  (I thought they were all dead).


Apparently they weren't dead just stuck in a 'time lock' and where able to use the master to get out somehow. A bit like sticking you foot in the way when someone tries to shut the door in your face.


danny la rouge said:


> What the Hell was the diamond all about?


Apparently they kind of diamond was only found on Galifry (sp) I don't think it had any other significance. How it got to earth is the question I can't answer


danny la rouge said:


> Why didn't the Dr die when he fell through the roof from a space craft?


Don't know he should have. More to the point why does he keep doing stupidly dramatic things that fall miserably, he may not have died but got messed up. Another example (from the first part) was striding purposefully and resolutely towards the master while lightning bolts where flying past him with an 'I'm going to end this now' look only to end up rolling around on the floor. 


danny la rouge said:


> What the fuck was the two door cabinet thing all about?


It was explained in the first part that technobabble always needs monitoring and to ensure that technobabble is always monitored one person can only leave if some one else takes over.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

strung_out said:


> well yeah, i didn't mean 'off' as in kill, i meant 'offed' as in got rid of them



*makes mental note to check first if strung_out ever asks me to 'take care' of someone he knows*


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

> It was explained in the first part that technobabble always needs monitoring and to ensure that technobabble is always monitored one person can only leave if some one else takes over



Oh, _that_ cabinet thing.

Convenient Plot Device...


----------



## fubert (Jan 4, 2010)

How many regenerations has he got left now ? I could eleven regenerations so isn't he on his last one ?


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

2, they get 13, altho since it's fiction there are obviously many work-arounds...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

They'll work out a way. The master has used up all his regenerations ages ago but has kept going by various body-thieving shenanigans


----------



## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

they'll write around it if they ever need a 13th regeneration. rtd has said that loads of times


----------



## emanymton (Jan 4, 2010)

I believe the new doc will be the 11th so I think that means they have one more left. 

Maybe there is some way to reset his clock like a dodgy second hand car dealer.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

emanymton said:


> I believe the new doc will be the 11th so I think that means they have one more left.
> 
> Maybe there is some way to reset his clock like a dodgy second hand car dealer.



Some of the time lord tech (as nicked by the baddies in mawdryn undead) or the Loom or whatever. It'll be explained in a 60 second burst of tech-nonsense


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> What the Hell was the diamond all about? - Those diamonds only come from Gallifrey



I got that.  What I didn't get was how you can throw one at a hologram of Earth and have it land near a Time Lord on Earth.  How the Master knew all these years it was on its way.  (And stuff).  And, basically, why it was thrown in the first place.  What was it for?  A peanut from the circle?




> Why didn't the Dr die when he fell through the roof from a space craft? - _qui pense?_


Les auteurs?  




> I missed the first 15/20 mins of pt2, so presumably you got a lot of Rassilon and an explanation of the gauntlet thingy? 2nd ep was quite disappointing TBH, was expecting more from it...


Rassilon?  Is that a Roxy Music tune?  

And no, I missed any mention of the gauntlet.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

HAND OF OMEGA 

what else could vapourise a Time Lady with no regenerating etc?

Must be the Hand.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

emanymton said:


> It was explained in the first part that technobabble always needs monitoring and to ensure that technobabble is always monitored one person can only leave if some one else takes over.


Yes, I know, but I was hoping it would have some _point_ in the story other than just To Kill The Dr.



kyser_soze said:


> Oh, _that_ cabinet thing.
> 
> Convenient Plot Device...


 I worked _that_ out.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> HAND OF OMEGA
> 
> what else could vapourise a Time Lady with no regenerating etc?
> 
> Must be the Hand.


This was never explained, never mind named.  Also, he was totally out of order doing this.  Fascist.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

> I got that. What I didn't get was how you can throw one at a hologram of Earth and have it land near a Time Lord on Earth. How the Master knew all these years it was on its way. (And stuff). And, basically, why it was thrown in the first place. What was it for? A peanut from the circle?



Well, if you're a Time Lord, even one stuck in a Time Lock, you've still got access to some pretty good tech, and this is GallifreyMaps with added interaction - they couldn't get a whole person through the gate thing, so in order to send The Master a message that _they were there on the other side_. It's basically just an inter-temporal 'Hey, we're still here' message in a bottle type thing.

Ah yeah, Hand of Omega. That's the gauntlet thing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> they couldn't get a whole person through the gate thing.


Until thse Master did some stuff to his thing-that-made-all-the-humans-into-him.

Also: My ten year old daughter wanted to know why all the Masters sometimes knew what they were all thinking, but sometimes had to phone each other to tell each other what to do next.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> *This was never explained, never mind named*.  Also, he was totally out of order doing this.  Fascist.



Well theres a fuck of a lot of plot baggage that goes with the Hand, so it was really just in there to please the nerds and provide Rassilon with a weapon of ultimate pwnage


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Well theres a fuck of a lot of plot baggage that goes with the Hand, so it was really just in there to please the nerds and provide Rassilon with a weapon of ultimate pwnage


Again, _Rassilon_?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

Named timelords have shit names. Borusa, rassilon etc.

all the 'the' time lords are cool names. the Master, The Meddling Monk, The Rani


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Named timelords have shit names. Borusa, rassilon etc.


Ah, so Rassilon was a Time Lord.  Was he the Ultra Bulletin Board Moderator with the glove?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah, so Rassilon was a Time Lord.



He was one of the founders of Time Lord society.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah, so Rassilon was a Time Lord.  Was he the Ultra Bulletin Board Moderator with the glove?



Rassilon was the founder of the Time Lords, Omega was his Stellar Engineer who got trapped in the anti-matter universe. The Hand of Omega is the tool/weapon Omega used to create the Eye of Harmon (a tame black hole) y, which powers all the TARDIS and other Time Lord stuff


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> He was one of the founders of Time Lord society.


So they are baddies are they?


----------



## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

rassilon was the first time lord, and he aspired to immortality. obviously at some point between the five doctors and the last episode, he was reanimated after being a kind of mythical figure in time lord history previously.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> So they are baddies are they?



Not initially. Horribly manipulative and arrogant but not actually bad- until the Time War drove them past grand hubris and into eeeeevil


----------



## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> So they are baddies are they?



they turned bad. in previous episodes they were always a vaguely benevolent race of people (although they still managed to fuck things up occasionally) so it was somewhat of a surprise to have them returning to wipe out all of humankind.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Rassilon was the founder of the Time Lords, Omega was his Stellar Engineer who got trapped in the anti-matter universe. The Hand of Omega is the tool/weapon Omega used to create the Eye of Harmon (a tame black hole) y, which powers all the TARDIS and other Time Lord stuff


Oh, that's disappointing.  I'm sorry I know that now.

I prefered it when they were dead and the Dr and the Master (and the Dr's "daughter") were all that was left of an unexplained society.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, that's disappointing.  I'm sorry I know that now.
> 
> I prefered it when they were dead and the Dr and the Master (and the Dr's "daughter") were all that was left of an unexplained society.



what where you doing in the 70/80's that was better than watching the episodes that explained the Time Lord race?

I bet you didn't even catch Trial of a Time Lord


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Not initially. Horribly manipulative and arrogant but not actually bad- until the Time War drove them past grand hubris and into eeeeevil


And this was during the McCoy tenure was it?  With Bertie Bassett?


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> what where you doing in the 70/80's that was better than watching the episodes that explained the Time Lord race?


I watched in the 70s.  But I never saw Davidson or later, until the McGann thing.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

I just googled Trial of a Time Lord.  And got this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_a_Time_Lord

No, I never saw that Dr.


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## Santino (Jan 4, 2010)

I've just wasted an hour of my life reading Doctor Who history on Wikipedia.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

Santino said:


> I've just wasted an hour of my life reading Doctor Who history on Wikipedia.


  Ha.  Loser.

Oh...


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## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

Santino said:


> I've just wasted an hour of my life reading Doctor Who history on Wikipedia.



and the best thing is none of it really makes any sense due to numerous contradictions and errata not only from th actual show but the books and radio plays as well


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## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> And this was during the McCoy tenure was it?  With Bertie Bassett?



no no, the turn to evil and the Time War itself are products of new who.

They just used to be up-themselves cunts so as strung_out says the abrupt turn to evil is a bit


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> no no, the turn to evil and the Time War itself are products of new who.


So was the turn to evil just revealed in these two episodes, or has it been alluded to before?


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## Santino (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> no no, the turn to evil and the Time War itself are products of new who.
> 
> They just used to be up-themselves cunts so as strung_out says the abrupt turn to evil is a bit



They don't really think of themselves as evil though, surely, and that's their fatal flaw. Convinced of their own righteousness. Absolute power and all that. They think they're entirely justified in ending the Universe in order to save it, or replace it with a new one.


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## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> So was the turn to evil just revealed in these two episodes, or has it been alluded to before?



just revealed. i can't remember what the exact line is, but in the last episode, the doctor says something about him always wanting to remember the time lords of old with fondness, until they turned to evil


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## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> and the best thing is none of it really makes any sense due to numerous contradictions and errata not only from th actual show but the books and radio plays as well



No canon nazis back in the days before the internetweb. 

I remember noting (but _not_ reading, take note) a thread on a BSG forum where they were discussing the evolution of Galactica as apparently the production crew updated the CGI model to represent actual battle damage per the previous eps, had re-builds visible and so on. 

I thought to myself, they're going to be canon nazis/.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> So was the turn to evil just revealed in these two episodes, or has it been alluded to before?



these episodes only. Dangerouse hubris has long been a trait and Borusa turned evil way back......no point getting into the 5 Doctors series.....

But as Santino is saying they've gone past hubris and into evil (although they won't consider themselves to be evil)


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

strung_out said:


> just revealed. i can't remember what the exact line is, but in the last episode, the doctor says something about him always wanting to remember the time lords of old with fondness, until they turned to evil


Uhuh. So it's all new information.  I see.


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## elevendayempire (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> and the best thing is none of it really makes any sense due to numerous contradictions and errata not only from th actual show but the books and radio plays as well


^This^

It is amusing to see just how much Davies has pinched wholesale from the books. The Christmas Invasion was basically just The Dying Days, with the skull-faced voodoo blood-control monsters borrowed from Faction Paradox.

The last 10 minutes of The Waters of Mars (all that "Time Lord Victorious" stuff) was straight out of Death Comes to Time. The destruction of Gallifrey, and the Doctor as last of the Time Lords? That was out of the books, too. As was the Time War itself (see: Alien Bodies) - and, most recently, the notion of the Time Lords attempting to become conceptual entities.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> (although they won't consider themselves to be evil)


They never do, do they?


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## Santino (Jan 4, 2010)

Steven Moffat said:
			
		

> In the end, a television series which embraces both the ideas of parallel universe and the concept of changing time can't have a continuity error - it can't.
> 
> It's impossible for Doctor Who to get it wrong because we can just say 'he changed time, it's a time warp, it happens'.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

Santino said:


>


Where did you quote that from?

Anyway, I like his style.  _That's_ the way to do it.


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## Santino (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> Where did you quote that from?
> 
> Anyway, I like his style.  _That's_ the way to do it.



From THE INTERNETS.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

Santino said:


> From THE INTERNETS.



I was hoping for a little more specificness, that I may read more.


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## strung out (Jan 4, 2010)

from here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_(Doctor_Who)


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

strung_out said:


> from here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_(Doctor_Who)


OK, I may read that.

Anyway, I'm not bothered about Canon.  I like New Who.  All I need is for episodes to make internal sense.  I was disappointed by these episodes.  All the more disappointed since I think Tenant (my favourite Dr) deserved better.


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## kyser_soze (Jan 4, 2010)

OO, that stuff on the TARDIS website could offer up some gems, especially if they reveal that the Daleks are merely agents of The Enemy.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2010)

http://www.paulcornell.com/2007/02/canonicity-in-doctor-who.html

looks good. Paul Cornell is a good sci fi author.


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## Stigmata (Jan 4, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> these episodes only. Dangerouse hubris has long been a trait and Borusa turned evil way back......no point getting into the 5 Doctors series.....
> 
> But as Santino is saying they've gone past hubris and into evil (although they won't consider themselves to be evil)



He was ambivalent when Martha told him Derek Jacobi had one of those fob watches, and he had no reason to think he was the Master at that point.


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## Beanburger (Jan 4, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> All I need is for episodes to make internal sense.


Good luck with that. You might have better odds now RTD has fucked off though.


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 4, 2010)

HAve to say I thought that was one of the shittest Dr who episiodes ever. 

Over half of part two was RTD having a massive self-congratulartory wank off. 
A fucking insult to the proud history of the doctor. 
Hes gone from doing a pretty decent job of reinventing the seires to near destroying it with that shite.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2010)

Beanburger said:


> Good luck with that. You might have better odds now RTD has fucked off though.


Well, _enough_ internal sense for me not to be bothered.  Really, I just want them to try a bit harder than a string of random plot devices from central casting.


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## CNT36 (Jan 4, 2010)

What happened to the Master? I guess he is inside the time lock but it wasn't really explained.
Where did they come from?  (I thought they were all dead). You're right they are all dead. But they used to be alive and have time machines. Rassilon said the doctor(probably the eigth the one that was involved in the time war) had the "moment" which was presumably some hardcore time lord weapon and planned to use it to destroy "time lords and daleks alike" which it seems he did and all the time lords were dead (i guess he also offed the nightmare child and all the others involved in the war). The time lock was then created by the doctor (or someone else) to stop time lords from back in the day zooming around in there tardises and daleks temporal shifting all over time and space doing all sorts of nasty stuff. 
What the Hell was the diamond all about? So the master would know the time lords were still around and bring them back. It was his actions that brought them back.


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## danny la rouge (Jan 5, 2010)

CNT36 said:


> The time lock was then created by the doctor (or someone else) to stop time lords from back in the day zooming around in there tardises and daleks temporal shifting all over time and space doing all sorts of nasty stuff.


Was that explained?  I may have missed that.


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## CNT36 (Jan 5, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> Was that explained?  I may have missed that.



In the first scene if you fill in the blanks yourself. If you had given up on life you would of been in a better position to understand.


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## al (Jan 5, 2010)

This new doctor isn't going to say 'Geronimo' every fucking episode is he?

That might lead me to murder...


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## danny la rouge (Jan 5, 2010)

CNT36 said:


> If you had given up on life you would of been in a better position to understand.


  Is that the opposite of "get a life"?


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## jannerboyuk (Jan 6, 2010)

al said:


> This new doctor isn't going to say 'Geronimo' every fucking episode is he?
> 
> That might lead me to murder...



New Doctor is shite. FACT.


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## strung out (Jan 6, 2010)

what makes you say that? everyone i know who's seen the new series thinks he's great.


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## hektik (Jan 7, 2010)

i posted this on another thread, but thought i'd bung it here too:

snow dalek:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sophiethevegetarian/3270219438/in/pool-snowdalek


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## scifisam (Jan 14, 2010)

I finally got around to watching the second part, and really enjoyed it. The goodbyes at the end, that most of you hated, I loved - I had a tear in my eye. Nice to see a noble (heh) character nonetheless not accepting his death with equanimity.

The new doctor did seem to be doing a David Tennant impersonation, but perhaps that's a sort of lag from the old persona. 



CNT36 said:


> In the first scene if you fill in the blanks yourself. If you had given up on life you would of been in a better position to understand.


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