# Bedroom Tax  actions



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2013)

Anyone know of anything going on about the Bedroom Tax?

By the way, has the bill been passed? Is it set to become law without a vote? When is it set to kick in?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Anyone know of anything going on about the Bedroom Tax?
> 
> By the way, has the bill been passed? Is it set to become law without a vote? When is it set to kick in?


 
Kicks in in April


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Kicks in in April


Whereas smaller places to downsize into will not....that's the thing that makes me really furious....loads of people, mostly elderly, in a Catch 22 situation getting poorer and poorer and poorer.


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## ska invita (Jan 30, 2013)

i see theres a facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/antibedroomtax/ which links to an Avaz petition http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Paul_Higgins/?caWNWbb

 but anything beyond that?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Whereas smaller places to downsize into will not....that's the thing that makes me really furious....loads of people, mostly elderly, in a Catch 22 situation getting poorer and poorer and poorer.


 
They'll be offering you places out by the coast or in Luton, miles away from your friends/family


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## tufty79 (Jan 30, 2013)

up north..
there's some meetings in leeds coming up with a view to starting campaigns.. don't know if campaigns=actions though.
http://leedshandsoffourhomes.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/seacroft-meeting/

and there's an assembly and march happening in halifax over the weekend; not specifically about the bedroom tax, but i'm guessing it'll be brought up..
http://leedshandsoffourhomes.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/northern-towns-against-cuts-feb-2nd/


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> They'll be offering you places out by the coast or in Luton, miles away from your friends/family


I wasn't aware of a glut of one bedroom social housing properties on the coast or in Luton.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I wasn't aware of a glut of one bedroom social housing properties on the coast or in Luton.


 
Nor was I, but maybe there's two-bedroom ones?


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## BigTom (Jan 30, 2013)

There's shortages of smaller houses everywhere - certainly is in Birmingham and loads of other places, so I can't see how they'll be moving people anywhere else tbh.

We're setting something up in Birmingham but won't have a group let alone any actions until feb/march which is a getting a bit late but as long as we're up and running with a real presence by April then hopefully people will find us once they start paying, I think I saw someone saying that letters are starting to be sent out now informing people of this crap.


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## ska invita (Jan 31, 2013)

Good luck with it Tom


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

As ever, I've spent more time reading the back pages than the front pages (or those on between), so I'm as behind the curve on this as everything else, but what the fuck is this all about?! How is anyone taking this seriously?!

From the bits I've caught is it something to do with kids having their own room


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Nor was I, but maybe there's two-bedroom ones?


2 beds are probably the most numerous social housing - as places get bigger (particularly with Council Housing) they tend to get bought under RTB


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

No, Lord Camomile ...there's an example here. It hits elderly people worst but also disabled people badly too



			
				BBC said:
			
		

> Prime Minister David Cameron has defended the so-called "bedroom tax" which will penalise people on housing benefit who have one or more spare rooms.
> He was responding to the case of a severely disabled man from Wrexham, who faces losing more than £600 a year for having an extra bedroom.
> His family say it is essential for his daily routine and moving house or sharing is not an option.


Video here, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21269109


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## weepiper (Jan 31, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> As ever, I've spent more time reading the back pages than the front pages (or those on between), so I'm as behind the curve on this as everything else, but what the fuck is this all about?! How is anyone taking this seriously?!
> 
> From the bits I've caught is it something to do with kids having their own room


 
watch the video here.

http://www.channel4.com/news/bedroom-tax-never-heard-of-it-says-tory-mp-who-voted-for-it


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't think a lot of social housing tenants are aware of how it will hit them, just going from my experience of a council estate of around 500 flats (which I work on) no one has asked me about it -


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I don't think a lot of social housing tenants are aware of how it will hit them, just going from my experience of a council estate of around 500 flats (which I work on) no one has asked me about it -


 
Lambeth are sending people around to talk to tenants affected


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks Mrs Magpie and weepiper 

"Only £10bn less than the defence budget"  

As beesonthewhatnow said on another thread, it doesn't even surprise you anymore, and is just fucking depressing.


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Lambeth are sending people around to talk to tenants affected


I haven't heard about a similar thing here - but it may be happening - I haven't been asked to do it - and usually when this sort of thing happens (surveys, etc) a few tenants do ring me asking if these visitors are legit


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

A lot of social housing tenants on benefits that I know are scared to death, but they've had the letters, it's clear there's no appeal or anything and are already ground down enough by everything else, food, heating, Atos, cuts in general, etc etc and are just waiting for the axe to fall in these worst of times.....it's overwhelming. I notice that suicide rates are up too. It's all so shit. A fucking tsunami of shit.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A lot of social housing tenants on benefits that I know are scared to death, but they've had the letters, it's clear there's no appeal or anything and are already ground down enough by everything else, food, heating Atos, cuts in general, etc etc and are just waiting for the axe to fall in these worst of times.....it's overwhelming. I notice that suicide rates are up too. It's all so shit. A fucking tsunami of shit.


 
I asked the woman about their discretionary fund, and she sort of snorted, indicating that Lambeth hasn't got money to be giving away

Also said if you wanted to appeal, you could, but you'd have to fill in a form detailing your expenditure etc.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Furthermore, are rents going to go up this year as well, thus making this 14 and 25% even more?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

That's just another turd in this impending tsunami of shit, Minnie. My family are OK but it's not a nice feeling being one of the few in the area on high enough ground to avoid the worst....


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## shagnasty (Jan 31, 2013)

Barnet has sent people round but i was out ,there is no way out of it.I am hoping that in november went i am 61 and 9 months old that because i am over working age i wont need to pay it after then.But it,s going to cause a lot of hardship to descent honest people


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## Jon-of-arc (Jan 31, 2013)

socialist party seem to be doing something in reading/bracknell.


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## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

Sorry for the very short notice:



> paullewismoney
> 
> Explaining #bedroomtax 0640 and 0820 @BBCBreakfast It's not a tax but a deduction average £14 from rent help for those with a spare bedroom


 
I don't know if I'll be able to stay awake for it. If anyone's up and there are serious errors and omissions (such as the above, implying that the loss is just £14 each for those affected  ), it might be possible to get heard in time for the second session at least. Contact details.


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## Voley (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I don't think a lot of social housing tenants are aware of how it will hit them, just going from my experience of a council estate of around 500 flats (which I work on) no one has asked me about it -


We've had loads of calls from people affected, usually people willing to downsize but unable to due to a lack of available places. It's gonna get grim.

Small point on it affecting the elderly though - if you're in receipt of pension credit there isn't a reduction.



> A size limit rule is being introduced to Housing
> Benefit for working age people renting from a
> local authority, a registered housing association
> or other registered social landlord. *By working age*
> *we mean anyone under state pension credit age.*


 
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/factsheet-hbsssc1.pdf


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## disco_dave_2000 (Jan 31, 2013)

People getting organised here in Liverpool - http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/01/505554.html


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Furthermore, are rents going to go up this year as well, thus making this 14 and 25% even more?


...and in England (Scotland & Wales are absorbing the increase within existing budgets) there's this too....


> *Millions of the poorest households face council tax rises because most councils in England will pass on a 10% benefit funding cut, research suggests.*


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21264773


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

NVP said:


> We've had loads of calls from people affected, usually people willing to downsize but unable to due to a lack of available places. It's gonna get grim.
> 
> Small point on it affecting the elderly though - if you're in receipt of pension credit there isn't a reduction.
> 
> ...


 That is a problem, they can't downsize if there is nowhere to downsize to.


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## geminisnake (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Nor was I, but maybe there's two-bedroom ones?


 
What's the point in going to all the hassle of moving if you still have to pay 14%?


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> What's the point in going to all the hassle of moving if you still have to pay 14%?


 If you move to a smaller flat - the bedroom tax doesn't apply - it is levied on people who have spare rooms

(yes I know it isn't a tax, it's a deduction of HB, but I consider it a tax)


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> If you move to a smaller flat - the bedroom tax doesn't apply - it is levied on people who have spare rooms
> 
> (yes I know it isn't a tax, it's a deduction of HB, but I consider it a tax)


So if one person in a 3 bed place moves to a 2 bed place because there are no 1 bed places they won't get taxed?


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## weepiper (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> If you move to a smaller flat - the bedroom tax doesn't apply - it is levied on people who have spare rooms
> 
> (yes I know it isn't a tax, it's a deduction of HB, but I consider it a tax)


 
I think gem means if you're in a 3-bed with two spare rooms what's the point of moving if all you can get is a 2-bed (and still be liable for the 14%)


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## BigTom (Jan 31, 2013)

and don't forget that whilst there may not be many 1-beds available in social housing, there are some available in private lettings which are not affected by the bedroom tax, and may well be more expensive than a 2-bed social housing place, meaning that we end up paying more in HB overall, not less


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## Greebo (Jan 31, 2013)

There's a FB-based petition against the bedroom tax, if anyone knows of one which isn't tied to that place, could you post the link please?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> What's the point in going to all the hassle of moving if you still have to pay 14%?


 
I'm saying for the elderly who may have two spare bedrooms, but may want to keep one for kids staying


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## BigTom (Jan 31, 2013)

Greebo said:


> There's a FB-based petition against the bedroom tax, if anyone knows of one which isn't tied to that place, could you post the link please?


 
38 degrees: http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-the-bedroom-tax-3
avaaz: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Paul_Higgins/?caWNWbb

Also repeal the welfare reform act which includes the bedroom tax on the govt. petition site: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/41600


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## Dan U (Jan 31, 2013)

there is a Dad at my Wife's school who is now in a paperwork nightmare over this (potentially worse).
and one of many i am sure.

His child lives with his mother of for the purposes of child benefit. In reality they share parenting and the son (who is primary age) stays with the Dad in the Dads 2 bed flat for part of the week but the Dad lets the Mum keep 100% of the child benefit. Therefore HB think the Dad has a 'spare bedroom' and is going to stitch him up with this crap.

he's got to find out i think if they can share Child Benefit (but he just gives it straight back to her) and formally share custody to get round this. which obviously will take time and money they don't have. and maybe legal costs if they need to formalize something in court.. but theres no legal aid anymore.

i fucking hate them, i really do for shit like this.


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## weepiper (Jan 31, 2013)

Dan U said:


> there is a Dad at my Wife's school who is now in a paperwork nightmare over this (potentially worse).
> and one of many i am sure.
> 
> His child lives with his mother of for the purposes of child benefit. In reality they share parenting and the son (who is primary age) stays with the Dad in the Dads 2 bed flat for part of the week but the Dad lets the Mum keep 100% of the child benefit. Therefore HB think the Dad has a 'spare bedroom' and is going to stitch him up with this crap.
> ...


 
Freud says he should put them on a sofa-bed 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/mansion-dwelling-tory-minister-tells-scottish-1555957


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## Dan U (Jan 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Freud says he should put them on a sofa-bed
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/mansion-dwelling-tory-minister-tells-scottish-1555957


 
Lord Freud can go fuck himself!


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## scifisam (Jan 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I think gem means if you're in a 3-bed with two spare rooms what's the point of moving if all you can get is a 2-bed (and still be liable for the 14%)


 
I suppose 14% is better than 25%.

But, of course, it would probably mean moving from a home you love, that you've put work into, to a shithole of a newbuild, changing doctors, moving farther away from work, etc. And if the smaller flats aren't suitable - no lift, for example, for a person with difficulty walking - then those people won't even be _allowed_ to move into them.

It's just bizarre that foster carers are affected by this too. The room is known to be occupied, but is counted as unoccupied? Buh?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> It's just bizarre that foster carers are affected by this too. The room is known to be occupied, but is counted as unoccupied? Buh?


 I had naively assumed that there would be an exception for foster carers


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## scifisam (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I had naively assumed that there would be an exception for foster carers


 
Apparently not. I don't understand why they'd need one, anyway - the room is occupied.  Surely if you sublet a room to someone, that'd count, so how can a foster child not count?

Or does subletting a room not count, either?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I had naively assumed that there would be an exception for foster carers


 
Nope



> *Who will be affected?*
> 
> All claimants who are deemed to have at least one spare bedroom will be affected. This includes:
> 
> ...


 
I'd imagine also that there's disabled couples who don't share a bedroom either for various reasons (eg. someone really ill who might be hooked up to drips etc. and have a hospital type bed)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Apparently not. I don't understand why they'd need one, anyway - the room is occupied.  Surely if you sublet a room to someone, that'd count, so how can a foster child not count?
> 
> Or does subletting a room not count, either?


 
Foster kid may only be there a couple of weeks though, then room may be empty for a period before next child who may be there a few months and room may be empty again.  I'm guessing


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> So if one person in a 3 bed place moves to a 2 bed place because there are no 1 bed places they won't get taxed?


 they will if they only need a 1 bed


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I think gem means if you're in a 3-bed with two spare rooms what's the point of moving if all you can get is a 2-bed (and still be liable for the 14%)


 ok,

I'm guessing here , but if it comes in, I can see a surge of interest in Mutual Exchanges.


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## BigTom (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Foster kid may only be there a couple of weeks though, then room may be empty for a period before next child who may be there a few months and room may be empty again. I'm guessing


 
Irrelevant, even if you have a longer term foster placement or you go straight from one foster child to the next with no gap, the room is always considered unnoccupied becaues the foster child is not part of the household for the purposes of benefits.
The tories are increasing a council discretionary fund which they think will cover this (so the council makes additional payments to foster carers to cover the cost of the rooms), except of course all councils are having so much money cut that it won't make any difference at all, Birmingham's fostering budget is planned to be cut by £1m, I can't see what our share of an additional £30m (iirc) spread around the whole country will make.


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## purenarcotic (Jan 31, 2013)

I think there's something interesting to note here about foster children not being considered a part of the family, when the government are absolutely hounding social services to get LAC out of children's homes and into long term placements / adopted out as soon as they possibly can (they want it done in 26 weeks.  I'd like to point out with all the resources and funding cuts this will be a total impossibility for most kids).  

It sort of shows the big disjunct; children in care should be brought into families as soon as possible, but at the same time are not considered part of the family for benefit purposes.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Irrelevant, even if you have a longer term foster placement or you go straight from one foster child to the next with no gap, the room is always considered unnoccupied becaues the foster child is not part of the household for the purposes of benefits.
> The tories are increasing a council discretionary fund which they think will cover this (so the council makes additional payments to foster carers to cover the cost of the rooms), except of course all councils are having so much money cut that it won't make any difference at all, Birmingham's fostering budget is planned to be cut by £1m, I can't see what our share of an additional £30m (iirc) spread around the whole country will make.


 
I realise that, just trying to figure out their warped thinking


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## Voley (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:
			
		

> ok,
> 
> I'm guessing here , but if it comes in, I can see a surge of interest in Mutual Exchanges.



Seeing it already, mate.


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

NVP said:


> Seeing it already, mate.


 really, I haven't seen a lot here (it's a pretty shitty estate tbf)


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Apparently not. I don't understand why they'd need one, anyway - the room is occupied.  Surely if you sublet a room to someone, that'd count, so how can a foster child not count?
> 
> Or does subletting a room not count, either?


 subletting a room counts as income which would reduce the HB - this would also save money for the tories


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## BigTom (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I realise that, just trying to figure out their warped thinking


 
It's not warped thinking I don't think, it's just the way that the benefit system is set out - if a foster child counted as part of the household for benefits purposes then you'd be able to claim child benefit, tax credits and any other benefits relating to children, but foster carers get paid for having the child there so they don't get benefits relating to the child.
Their thinking is that instead of changing this, you simply pay money to the council so they can pay foster carers more to cover the loss of housing benefit. This could work, except of course that all councils are having their budgets slashed and this isn't afaik ringfenced.


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

Of course if the Tories were serious about cutting the HB bill, they would bring in legislation to cap private rents - but they aren't going to do that - would piss off private landlords - they don't mind pissing off people on council estates as they don't think they will lose many votes over it


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## cesare (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Of course if the Tories were serious about cutting the HB bill, they would bring in legislation to cap private rents - but they aren't going to do that - would piss off private landlords - they don't mind pissing off people on council estates as they don't think they will lose many votes over it


Exactly this.


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## Greebo (Jan 31, 2013)

BigTom said:


> 38 degrees: http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-the-bedroom-tax-3
> avaaz: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Paul_Higgins/?caWNWbb
> 
> Also repeal the welfare reform act which includes the bedroom tax on the govt. petition site: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/41600


Thanks, I didn't set up a pseudonym on Face Ache just to blow it wide open.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

I wonder if we should have a separate thread on the types of people being affected, as I think up until very recently, this topic has been largely ignored/buried under other news



> The biggest social housing landlord in the north west says almost a quarter of its tenants subject to the so-called "bedroom tax" are being forced to leave their homes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I wonder if we should have a separate thread on the types of people being affected, as I think up until very recently, this topic has been largely ignored/buried under other news


 


> According to figures from the Department for Work and Pensions around 600,000 one bedroom flats will be needed to accommodate tenants currently under-occupying larger homes, but national housing stocks for this kind of property stand at just 300,000.


 key point here - those tenants who are supposedly over occupying - can't move to smaller flats


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

can you imagine the furore if they tried this with owner occupiers? that you had to pay more tax if you lived in a property bigger than you need


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> key point here - those tenants who are supposedly over occupying - can't move to smaller flats


 
or they could, but to private ones where the rent will cost more


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> can you imagine the furore if they tried this with owner occupiers? that you had to pay more tax if you lived in a property bigger than you need


 
ah yes, but homeowners would say they're not skivers.  It's only council/HA tenants that can afford to skive


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## _angel_ (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> can you imagine the furore if they tried this with owner occupiers? that you had to pay more tax if you lived in a property bigger than you need


That would be pure class. Sadly not going to happen. Its the expectation of shoving kids in a room together (even with disabilities) that can go and piss off.
Imagine this happening to some middle class types, articles full of how being forced to share a bedroom jeopardising their exam results. Which will happen.
Also, a lot of couples may just split up and get rehoused twice over with a kid each to try and keep a bedroom.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

marty21 said:


> key point here - those tenants who are supposedly over occupying - can't move to smaller flats


 
and were never offered smaller flats in the first place because they weren't available, which is something a lot of people who approve of this "tax" don't seem to realise


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## _angel_ (Jan 31, 2013)

Lots of pissed off teenagers being forced to share a room with annoying sibling who may be eligible to vote in the next election tho.


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## DexterTCN (Jan 31, 2013)

2 kids under 12, one room only.  2 kids teenagers, only 2 rooms if they're opposite sex, apparently.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> 2 kids under 12, one room only. 2 kids teenagers, only 2 rooms if they're opposite sex, apparently.


 
I thought it was under 10-years of age, mixed sex.  Over 10, same sex?


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## DexterTCN (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I thought it was under 10-years of age, mixed sex. Over 10, same sex?


I may have some of the details wrong, the housing officer came around a couple of moths ago to 'interview me on my circumstances'.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I may have some of the details wrong, the housing officer came around a couple of moths ago to 'interview me on my circumstances'.


 


> The size criteria in the social rented sector will restrict housing benefit to allow for one bedroom for each person or couple living as part of the household, with the following exceptions:
> 
> Children under 16 of same gender expected to share
> Children under 10 expected to share regardless of gender
> Disabled tenant or partner who needs non resident overnight carer will be allowed an extra bedroom


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Lots of pissed off teenagers being forced to share a room with annoying sibling who may be eligible to vote in the next election tho.


 I remember my sister plotting to get her own room - she ended up getting mum to make me share with my brother - and her and my other sister getting their own room  I was the oldest, I had RIGHTS  

plus the room she got was on the ground floor so she could sneak out at night to meet bad boys


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## scifisam (Jan 31, 2013)

Sharing a room isn't unreasonable, but it really depends on the size of the room. Third or fourth bedrooms are often tiny rooms won't even fit a second bed.


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## marty21 (Jan 31, 2013)

my sister ended up getting the largest room on her own - me and my brother shared a smaller room -

fiendish sister


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## _angel_ (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Sharing a room isn't unreasonable, but it really depends on the size of the room. Third or fourth bedrooms are often tiny rooms won't even fit a second bed.


I think my old bedroom was 7 foot by about 7 or 8 foot. Having said that I know the boys across the road had to share that and have seen bunk beds in those rooms. Seriously way too small though.

eta: a lot of it depends on how well the kids get on together.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Sharing a room isn't unreasonable, but it really depends on the size of the room. Third or fourth bedrooms are often tiny rooms won't even fit a second bed.


 
I agree, but then they'd have to upgrade once the kids got older (if it was a young boy and girl sharing), so the council would have to rehouse them again.  This would also mean they might not be so much into decorating/spending money on their home knowing they'd need to move in a few years.  New home means more money on carpets, new furniture (if room sizes are different), relocation costs, decorating costs etc.


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## scifisam (Jan 31, 2013)

> > <b>scifisam said: </b><br />Sharing a room isn't unreasonable, but it really depends on the size of the room. Third or fourth bedrooms are often tiny rooms won't even fit a second bed.
> 
> 
> <br />I think my old bedroom was 7 foot by about 7 or 8 foot. Having said that I know the boys across the road had to share that and have seen bunk beds in those rooms. Seriously way too small though.<br /> <br />eta: a lot of it depends on how well the kids get on together.



Bunk beds aren't always even possible if the only space for a bed is under the window, which is really common. That'd be a horrible way to live, with no natural light, and also probably against the fire prevention regulations that HAs and councils are supposed to follow (hence fire doors). I suppose perhaps tenants could try to appeal on those grounds.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

> *Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab):* I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. In north Lincolnshire, North Lincolnshire Homes—the social housing provider—has 1,500 people who are deemed to be under-occupying properties and only 40 single-bedroom properties become available every year. People in huge distress are coming to see us about this matter, and it is very distressing.


 
From:

http://www.publications.parliament....30123/halltext/130123h0001.htm#13012345000001

Starts around halfway down the page


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Sharing a room isn't unreasonable, but it really depends on the size of the room. Third or fourth bedrooms are often tiny rooms won't even fit a second bed.


 
Quite, and it looks like that was brought up:



> To continue discussing space, the size of the rooms also needs to be considered, but the rules specifically rule that out. A typical tenancy agreement may describe the bedrooms as “two plus one plus one”—in other words, one double bedroom and two single bedrooms. The single bedrooms are described as single for a reason—they are often very, very small, as I have seen for myself. Yet a family comprising, for example, a couple and two boys under 16 would be considered as under-occupying that type of property. The rules encourage that family to move to a two-bedroom property, which may itself be described as “two plus one” and where they would effectively be in breach of the tenancy. Surely, size of rooms needs to be taken into account when determining whether there is under-occupancy. I ask the Minister to reconsider the rules.
> Of course, the family that I have just spoken about might not be able to find a such a property. In many areas, there is a shortage of suitable housing into which tenants can downsize, which is a serious problem, and it is probably the most significant reason why disabled people are by far the most likely to be affected by the changes to the housing benefit rules, given that, as the impact assessment stated, disabled people will tend to be in smaller households. There is nothing that disabled people, or indeed anyone else who is affected, can do about that situation. They cannot move into properties that do not exist.
> *23 Jan 2013 : Column 99WH*


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## _angel_ (Jan 31, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Bunk beds aren't always even possible if the only space for a bed is under the window, which is really common. That'd be a horrible way to live, with no natural light, and also probably against the fire prevention regulations that HAs and councils are supposed to follow (hence fire doors). I suppose perhaps tenants could try to appeal on those grounds.


That's where my bed was. I have seen bunk beds in those rooms and by god they are small. It's not fair to expect anyone to share a room as small as my old one (I didn't even have a wardrobe in it ffs!).


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Renfrewshire



> "There are 4,400 people on Renfrewshire Council's housing waiting list who need a one-bedroom property but we only have 3,600 one bedroom homes and they are occupied already. This means many people on housing benefit are going to struggle to pay their rent from day one of their tenancy because we will have to put them in a property that is too big for them."


 
http://www.the-gazette.co.uk/news/r...5456-benefit-cuts-looming-under-bedroom-tax-/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

The North East



> Housing associations across the North East of England are warning they do not have enough of the right-sized homes for the thousands of displaced tenants who will fall foul of the new ‘bedroom tax’.
> 
> As up to 50,000 families could be affected, one housing association alone estimates they have *2500 tenants* who will be found to be under-occupying their homes, *but only 16 spare one-bed houses to move them to.*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

One Show looking for people affected by bedroom tax willing to talk

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2013/01/one-show-reaching-5m-looking-for-people-affected-by-bedroom-tax/


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## tufty79 (Jan 31, 2013)

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....s-council-homes-10-million-go-ahead-1-5298464

6,700 council tenants are going to be affected by the tax. leeds council are spending £10m on building 105 new properties over the next three years....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....s-council-homes-10-million-go-ahead-1-5298464
> 
> 6,700 council tenants are going to be affected by the tax. leeds council are spending £10m on building 105 new properties over the next three years....


 
Not a massive 105 new properties over the next three years?!!  

Are they 1-bedroom though?


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## tufty79 (Jan 31, 2013)

it's not really clear from that article - i'm going to do some digging 

edit:sounds like it - 


> the new homes will be one-bedroom properties* (but see note at bottom) and will target the housing needs of the elderly and people affected by the new housing benefit “bedroom tax” that comes into force in April.
> Latest estimates put the number of Leeds council tenants affected by that element of the government’s welfare reforms at 6,700, with 423 households having already asked for a transfer to a one-bedroom property, the report says.
> “The implementation of local lettings policies in relation to the proposed development of units in order to prioritise (council) tenants currently under-occupying could lead to the release of 2 and 3 bedroomed properties, thus making more efficient use of existing Council stock,” it adds.
> ...
> ...


http://theleedscitizen.wordpress.co...city-leeds-could-see-new-council-homes-built/


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## geminisnake (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> or they could, but to private ones where the rent will cost more


 
This is my point entirely. If I move out of my under used council place to a private one bedroom flat THEIR housing bill will go up by at least £100 monthly.  And I'm not even sure I could get a one bedroom place.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> This is my point entirely. If I move out of my under used council place to a private one bedroom flat THEIR housing bill will go up by at least £100 monthly. And I'm not even sure I could get a one bedroom place.


 
This is what supporters of this bollocks seem to be missing


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## Wolveryeti (Jan 31, 2013)




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## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

If this doesn't cause riots, I'll be shocked.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

Prepare to be shocked. It's one thing being taxed, it's another making your family homeless by getting evicted because you've rioted.


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## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

It was more post-eviction I was thinking of. Losing a social-housing tenancy is a lot more serious than losing a private tenancy. Nothing left to lose if it's happening anyway.


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## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

Lots of children will be pushed into poverty by this, if their parents cannot downsize or decide they are best off paying the tax, but childless people are in the worst position vis-a-vis benefits (I'm not trying to play one group off against another, it is generally acknowledged that benefits for the childless are relatively lower).

There's no kind of cushion on JSA. Few people are unemployed for years, and things like child benefit and child tax credits can tide a family through a rough patch if they can avoid big one-off expenses. Singles get £71/week and childless couples £110 (?). And CTB, which is also being cut and they are at the bottom of the list for local relief schemes. 14% of their rent might be near impossible to find, and there will be fierce competition for one-bed flats because of this. Many will be forced into homelessness or have to move far away from their community and those that don't will claim more in HB for a private tenancy than the overly spacious accommodation they have been forced out of.

Hence no riots = will be shocked


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## audiotech (Feb 2, 2013)

Riots are not going to happen and anyway it would be a stupid course of action to take. Nevermind the punitive consequences of such nihilism, what the hell is achieved by smashing up the neighbourhood you live in? There's also little likelihood of hundreds of thousands marching in London. This is not another poll tax, as it doesn't affect vast swathes of people in both rented and private property's - owner occupiers specifically.

Tenants living in council housing have been portrayed and labelled as 'benefit scrounging, council house "chav" scum' for too many years now and it appears, on the surface at least, that that's the perception now held by significant numbers. I live on a small council housing estate and see people daily looking grim, with their heads down. I also see others who live nearby, private, owner occupiers, looking down their noses. It's depressing and presently I don't see anything on the horizon that will affect this state of affairs. There is no movement I can see to a more progressive, confident outlook. Becoming poorer adds to the desperation felt and can sap confidence even further.

The tory's are not stupid and have deliberately stoked the fire against a specific section of the population, the poor, the weak, the marginalised making it very difficult for wide-spread opposition to these measures to be built. They've 'managed consent' in their favour well so far. The questions uppermost are: Will this 'managed consent' become more entrenched? Will it last?


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## BigTom (Feb 2, 2013)

There are about 700,000 people who will be directly affected by this, but it's not just this, in April we'll get council tax benefit cuts and more reforms alongside the closure of CABs, Law Centres, Shelter offices and many more affected by legal aid cuts. This will also take out a lot of debt advice/support which will pull in more people on lower incomes.

Birmingham has 30% youth unemployment, 50% in some wards. I don't know how many of those who are employed are in apprenticeships on £2.65/hr but I bet it's loads and they won't get tax credits to top this up cos they aren't 25. We're also a very young city with around a third of the population under 25.
This is one of the reasons why Birmingham has the worst unemployment of the core cities.

Add in an economy that looks like it'll only be getting worse, and all those people who have become self-unemployed or self-underemployed to escape JSA coming back into the system with universal credit, and more heading that way as hours or jobs are lost and there's a situation waiting for a spark imo.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 2, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I live on a small council housing estate and see people daily looking grim, with their heads down.


Exactly.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 2, 2013)

posted this on the other thread by accident 

Govan Law Centre have taken this up

http://govanlc.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/we-can-stop-evictions-for-bedroom-tax.html


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

Rather than riot, they could have a protest in London - assuming any of them have any money left to be able to afford the fare 

Those that do will probably be told they're obviously not skint if they can afford to go to London for the day


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## steve0223 (Feb 2, 2013)

i met a few people affected by this. There seems to be a couple of ways of challenging it. If even a small percentage of residents challenge local authorities  / housing associations on this, tie them up in complaints and possible legal challenges, then it will easily cost more than what they want to save. 

this blog has tonnes of stuff on it that might be helpful: http://speye.wordpress.com/

Also, unless i am mistaken social tenants can only be evicted for rent arrears under Section 8 if the tenant owes more than two months rent. So if someone continues to pay rent as it was before bedroom tax, it would take at least a year before they owe a substantial amount....so it's like a mini rent strike. This would buy individuals some time whilst making some space for collective action.

One tenant i was speaking too was saying "if they make me move then i will want full moving costs." I said to him this could cost couple hundred quid - at £14 per month maybe council might just say 'stay put'...


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## Jackobi (Feb 2, 2013)

steve0223 said:


> One tenant i was speaking too was saying "if they make me move then i will want full moving costs." I said to him this could cost couple hundred quid - at £14 per month maybe council might just say 'stay put'...


 
Unfortunately, that is very wishful thinking, and naive. Some councils are providing help with moving for those having to downsize where possible, but many are not. Social housing providers are not forcing anyone to move, tenants are entitled to stay in their homes as long as they top up the rent and do not end up served with an eviction notice.

The council may well just say 'stay put', but the tenant is still liable for any shortfall in housing benefit and will accrue rent arrears if it is not paid.


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## sojourner (Feb 2, 2013)

Can't see owt on these forums about action on council tax benefit cuts - I know, sorry, derail, but I have decided to cancel the DD for the council tax, and only pay them what I'm currently paying, by cheque.  We've two people on the dole in this house, I'm the only wage earner, and we're getting by, but paying another £30 a month will have a big impact. 

I'm meeting up with someone soon and the plan so far is to try and arrange a protest and leaflet the town centre plus DSS etc, with a view to getting everyone to refuse to pay the extra.  Where I live, St Helens, is proper deprived, yet although there's grumblings, no one is doing anything.  The new taxes will affect everyone, pretty much, in this town.


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## sojourner (Feb 2, 2013)

It's fucked up, completely, all this.  Used to be the case that social housing meant you had a roof over your head no matter what. You had to try really fucking hard and be a complete bastard to lose your house, draughty, cold and mouldy as it was!


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 2, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> Unfortunately, that is very wishful thinking, and naive. Some councils are providing help with moving for those having to downsize where possible, but many are not. Social housing providers are not forcing anyone to move, tenants are entitled to stay in their homes as long as they top up the rent and do not end up served with an eviction notice.
> 
> The council may well just say 'stay put', but the tenant is still liable for any shortfall in housing benefit and will accrue rent arrears if it is not paid.


 
Yeah, as far as many councils are concerned they've got no obligation to rehouse someone on the basis that they can no longer afford the rent - As far as they're concerned, the tenants housing needs are met & anything beyond that is outside the councils remit.


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## sojourner (Feb 2, 2013)

And THAT'S why they're all housing associations, and not actual council housing anymore


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## BigTom (Feb 2, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Can't see owt on these forums about action on council tax benefit cuts - I know, sorry, derail, but I have decided to cancel the DD for the council tax, and only pay them what I'm currently paying, by cheque. We've two people on the dole in this house, I'm the only wage earner, and we're getting by, but paying another £30 a month will have a big impact.
> 
> I'm meeting up with someone soon and the plan so far is to try and arrange a protest and leaflet the town centre plus DSS etc, with a view to getting everyone to refuse to pay the extra. Where I live, St Helens, is proper deprived, yet although there's grumblings, no one is doing anything. The new taxes will affect everyone, pretty much, in this town.


 
I started this thread a while back to talk about council tax non payment campaigns:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/council-tax-benefit-cuts-non-payment-campaign.299249/


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## steve0223 (Feb 2, 2013)

well i'm glad your not at any tenant meetings that are organised where i am. It might be wishful thinking and naive , but it's a start and an attempt to develop some self organised tactics outside of the grandstanding 'defend yourself against <insert campaign here>' created on behalf of tenants


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## Jackobi (Feb 2, 2013)

steve0223 said:


> well i'm glad your not at any tenant meetings that are organised where i am. It might be wishful thinking and naive , but it's a start...


 
I didn't mean it to be derogatory, but your friend seems to misunderstand the implications of the bedroom tax.


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## goldenecitrone (Feb 2, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> I didn't mean it to be derogatory, but your friend seems to misunderstand the implications of the bedroom tax.


 
What must the French think? Une bedroom tax, no wonder the Anglais don't understand lurve.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Rather than riot, they could have a protest in London - assuming any of them have any money left to be able to afford the fare
> 
> Those that do will probably be told they're obviously not skint if they can afford to go to London for the day


Riots don't get planned. They happen.

And I can't see them not happening in areas (in and out of London) where large numbers of people cannot downsize and where the biggest pressure is likely to be on singles or couples being told to find one beds where there are not enough one beds. If they cannot find a swap or afford to pay 14% of their rent from £71/week for a single or £111/week for a couple whilst also getting charged more council tax, they're losing a social tenancy when there is a huge shortage of social tenancies. And they will end up on a private tenancy paying even more - which is shit for the council whilst they're still on HB and shit for them when they find a job and get stuck with a much higher rent and zero security.

Add some angry current and ex-soldiers to the mix; parents of soldiers are not being allowed to keep spare rooms for them and lots of soldiers are being made redundant. Homelessness is terrible amongst those leaving the military as it is and this'll make that worse too.

It'll also make it harder for parents to act as a safety net for their children unless they have serious amounts of cash to spare. I know quite a few parents who have one or two adult kids moving back in because they can't survive otherwise and a couple of people with child (+/- partner) and grandchildren living with them. That kind of 'Big Society' _<hollow laugh>_ won't be available to anyone in social housing any more. The poor can help themselves, you see. No parental assistance for them.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> Riots don't get planned. They happen.



Back in the day, I would agree.

Now, however, they get egged on by social media.


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## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Back in the day, I would agree.
> 
> Now, however, they get egged on by social media.


 
they've always been egged on.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> they've always been egged on.




I think there is a bit of difference between people on the street egging them on and the tweets and facebook notofications during your last riots.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

That's mid-riot intelligence. It is not planning to have a riot.

Unless you're thinking of a couple of high profile cases where teenagers got carried away on facebook? They got prison sentences for attempting to plan a riot; the courts noted that no one actually turned up.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 4, 2013)

You're taxed.... if you have a spare bedroom?


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## spring-peeper (Feb 4, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You're taxed.... if you have a spare bedroom?




It is not a tax, it is a decrease in benefits.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 4, 2013)

The under-occupancy penalty, but we like to call it the bedroom tax


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## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You're taxed.... if you have a spare bedroom?



If you live in social housing and have a spare bedroom, no matter the reason for it, your entitlement to benefits is reduced by 14% of your rent. 

So, for example, if you need benefits because you have serious disabilities, and also need your own bedroom because of your disabilities, you lose out. 

Or if you're in your fifties and your kids are grown up and moved on, then you get made redundant, you lose out. Even if moving to a private rental would cost the govt significantly more.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The under-occupancy penalty, but we like to call it the bedroom tax




I know, by it only applies to those receiving the benefit.  So it is a decrease in the benefits, not a global tax.




I'm not agreeing with it, just making it clear.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

No. It's a tax that only gets paid by some of the poorest people in the country (bar those already completely excluded). Rent doesn't magically go down just because HB isn't covering it, and JSA doesn't magically go up to cover the difference. Benefits already leave people below the poverty level.

People get thousands of pounds worth of incentive to move to smaller council places. Now they're being forced out without any compensation or choice; parents are unable to offer their grown-up children anywhere safe to flee to if things don't work out for them; foster-carers will pay to keep a spare room open for a new child.

And it won't save the taxpayer a penny, it'll just reward landlords splitting up family homes to rent them out for more as lower-occupancy flats as rents get pushed up by the sudden surge in demand. The taxpayer ends up paying more to private landlords than it will ever collect in bedroom taxes and we all get higher housing costs.

It's beyond despicable.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> Sorry for the very short notice:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I'll be able to stay awake for it. If anyone's up and there are serious errors and omissions (such as the above, implying that the loss is just £14 each for those affected  ), it might be possible to get heard in time for the second session at least. Contact details.


Just seen that he favourited my tweet concerning this inaccuracy, and it's dated the day before the broadcast. Don't suppose anyone saw how he delivered the items in the end?

Edit: found them. Watched the first one so far. Did say £14/week but at no point said that this was 14% of rent (so £25/week minimum in London) or 25% for a second or really how low income has to be to be getting HB for a social tenancy.

Covering the kinds of problems it will cause sort of OK, but the explanation of how the number of rooms is calculated is comical, like people are routinely rehoused into smaller/larger/smaller places as their kids get older.




Bit more discussion of incomes on that second clip.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 4, 2013)

scifisam said:


> If you live in social housing and have a spare bedroom, no matter the reason for it, your entitlement to benefits is reduced by 14% of your rent.
> 
> So, for example, if you need benefits because you have serious disabilities, and also need your own bedroom because of your disabilities, you lose out.
> 
> Or if you're in your fifties and your kids are grown up and moved on, then you get made redundant, you lose out. Even if moving to a private rental would cost the govt significantly more.


 
So: this govt has a death wish?


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> So: this govt has a death wish?


Death upon the poor, yes.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

It knows it's dead. It's trying to do as many vicious and hard to reverse things as possible before we have a chance to kick them out. It's not like Labour have the best of records when it comes to bashing people on benefits; they'll find this a regretfully convenient cut to keep when and if they get the chance, or will use abolishing the bedroom tax as cover for other cuts.


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## DownwardDog (Feb 4, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> So: this govt has a death wish?


 
The type of person who is affected by this would never vote Conservative under any circumstances so they can be fucked at a very low political cost.

The calculation is that not many people who aren't affected by this care enough to change their vote over the fact that Jason of Hartlepool is being penalised for his tax payer provided recording studio and sculpture space in a second bedroom.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

DownwardDog said:


> Jason of Hartlepool is being penalised for his tax payer provided recording studio and sculpture space in a second bedroom.


It would have to be a miniature sculpture studio, tiny little maquettes, and a recording studio on a laptop as it's likely to measure about 2 metres by 1.5 metres if the second bedrooms in my social housing abode are anything to go by.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

Plenty of people in social housing vote Conservative and plenty of them are on benefits, due to low wages or the jobs which have evaporated since 2008.

It's not like being unemployed is a lifetime situation. Very few people are on the dole long-term.

Some people will never earn enough to cover London rents. Plenty of them vote Tory.


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You're taxed.... if you have a spare bedroom?



Others have explained this, i just want to illustrate some situations in which people are considered to have spare bedrooms:

foster carers. foster children are not considered part of the household for benefits. This means bedrooms in which foster children are actually sleeping are considered spare.

separated parents with visiting children will have to pay to keep rooms for them to sleep in. Lord Freud who is one of the architects of this told someone on a talk radio show that his 3 kids should sleep on a sofa bed when they come to stay.

Disabled people in adapted homes will have to move at huge expense to adapt another house or into unsuitable accommodation.
Also families with a severely disabled child have rooms with adaptations and disability aids and no space got another bed are told they have to share with siblings

It'd be madness because of the sensible exemptions and difficulty/expense of verifying those exemptions even if there were smaller properties for people to move to, which there aren't.

It's an attack on social housing really. Not going to actually do anything about housing shortages, just cost people and taxpayers money and increase homelessness.


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## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

BigTom said:


> foster carers. foster children are not considered part of the household for benefits. This means bedrooms in which foster children are actually sleeping are considered spare.


Allegedly, fostering allowances will go up to compensate for this. It does mean that foster carers with spare rooms not currently occupied by foster children will be penalised for having space for foster children. This would hit those who can do short-term emergency placements at short notice particularly hard.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

BigTom said:


> It's an attack on social housing really. Not going to actually do anything about housing shortages, just cost people and taxpayers money and increase homelessness.


Except I think the bulk of the money goes to private landlords who are raking it in. Rents are so high in some areas of the UK that people in jobs can claim housing benefit. This seems to be conveniently forgotten in the press.


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> Allegedly, fostering allowances will go up to compensate for this. It does mean that foster carers with spare rooms not currently occupied by foster children will be penalised for having space for foster children. This would hit those who can do short-term emergency placements at short notice particularly hard.


 
Allegedly.. but afaik what is happening is that they are increasing the discretionary payment fund for councils by £30m. This measure is supposed to save around £500m iirc so only a small number of people will be able to access any discretionary payments,, which really shuold be available for anyone in any of the situations I outlined above (and probably some others too). I also don't know if this money is ringfenced so giving councils £30m when you are cutting billions is not going to help.
Birmingham city council are cutting £1m from their fostering budget this year, whilst closing childrens homes and saying they will double the number of foster carers. There's no way that our share of the £30m is going to make up for the loss of funding.
So whilst it would have been a potentially sensible way to deal with this quirk, it's not going to work anyway. I really don't understand why they haven't exempted foster carers like they have pensioners, I assume they think it would be too difficult/expensive to police.



Mrs Magpie said:


> Except I think the bulk of the money goes to private landlords who are raking it in. Rents are so high in some areas of the UK that people in jobs can claim housing benefit. This seems to be conveniently forgotten in the press.


 
Yes this is true, but the bedroom tax doesn't affect anyone in private housing, what it will do is force people to move from social housing to a more expensive, smaller, private property which they'll get full HB for. People in work are about a quarter of housing benefit claimants, around a third (iirc) are pensioners who are exempted from this tax.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Yes this is true, but the bedroom tax doesn't affect anyone in private housing.


Badly expressed on my part, I meant the bulk of the housing benefit money, not bedroom tax money. It's just the way this is being pitched would lead one to believe is that the entire housing benefit budget goes to those in social housing, which is just not the case.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 4, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Death upon the poor, yes.


 
What I mean is that there's some legislation so repugnant that when it comes down, it's like the ruling party just begging to be voted out of office. It's like they sign their own death warrant. Our prov govt did it here. Before the last election, they pledged not to bring in this certain tax. Then, within months of being elected, they brought it in. The uproar of outrage began immediately. The premier who signed the legislation is now gone, and his party is facing an election in a couple of months that they're sure to lose.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 4, 2013)

I've read the other posts. I suppose if you strike at the lowest economic strata, others in the society might not be as concerned.


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Badly expressed on my part, I meant the bulk of the housing benefit money, not bedroom tax money. It's just the way this is being pitched would lead one to believe is that the entire housing benefit budget goes to those in social housing, which is just not the case.


 
Yeah, that's a good point, it's another way in which they are presenting benefits as only being available to scroungers, especially presented alongside the social housing subsidy myth, even though the two of those things don't really join up when you think about it because lower rents means lower hb payments so even if social housing was subsidised the subsidy would be back to the taxpayer when people are on HB, it would only be when people are not on benefits that there would be a subsidy away from the taxpayer, if such a subsidy existed which it doesn't.


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## DownwardDog (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> Plenty of people in social housing vote Conservative and plenty of them are on benefits, due to low wages or the jobs which have evaporated since 2008.
> 
> It's not like being unemployed is a lifetime situation. Very few people are on the dole long-term.
> 
> Some people will never earn enough to cover London rents. Plenty of them vote Tory.


 
Voting Conservative and then getting upset over getting your benefits cut is like going to an S&M dungeon and getting upset when the tawse comes out.


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## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> Just seen that he favourited my tweet concerning this inaccuracy, and it's dated the day before the broadcast. Don't suppose anyone saw how he delivered the items in the end?
> 
> Edit: found them. Watched the first one so far. Did say £14/week but at no point said that this was 14% of rent (so £25/week minimum in London) or 25% for a second or really how low income has to be to be getting HB for a social tenancy.
> 
> ...




Agreed that it's not 14 quid a week, but where are you getting 25 quid a week in london from?


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## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Badly expressed on my part, I meant the bulk of the housing benefit money, not bedroom tax money. It's just the way this is being pitched would lead one to believe is that the entire housing benefit budget goes to those in social housing, which is just not the case.



But people in social housing who work might also need to claim housing benefit, since the entitlement to HB is based on income. It's just that, if they're in private rentals, their rent is likely to be higher.


----------



## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Agreed that it's not 14 quid a week, but where are you getting 25 quid a week in london from?


14% (approx 1/7th) of the rent, assuming that a two bed (or bigger) for less than £175/week in London would be vanishingly rare.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> 14% (approx 1/7th) of the rent, assuming that a two bed (or bigger) for less than £175/week in London would be vanishingly rare.


 
It wouldn't be rare in social housing - well, not unless it's one of those new 80% of market rate properties. My rent's significantly below that and I spend ages looking at homeswaps and council tenancies, so have a good rough idea of other rents.

In my borough, full HB is available to people earning less than £16,000. I don't think they take your rent into account at all, just your income.


----------



## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

Forgot to factor in the lower rents.

See, that's why there's gonna be riots. It's not just being forced to downsize, it's losing the social tenancy and low rent in perpetuity just because you were temporarily out of work. Irreplaceable too, with new social tenancies being time limited.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

ymu said:


> Forgot to factor in the lower rents.
> 
> See, that's why there's gonna be riots. It's not just being forced to downsize, it's losing the social tenancy and low rent in perpetuity just because you were temporarily out of work. Irreplaceable too, with new social tenancies being time limited.


 
Time limited tenancies haven't been brought in yet have they?


----------



## ymu (Feb 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Time limited tenancies haven't been brought in yet have they?


I'm not sure what the timetabling is but losing a social tenancy and then rejoining the list until you get back to the top of it and have a shot at the right sized property is going to mean time limited tenancies are the only ones available, unless that idiocy gets scrapped.


----------



## sojourner (Feb 4, 2013)

Just lost my rag with some cunt on FB.  Couldn't hold it in.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 4, 2013)

HI all, been busy moving home and it's great to see this thread up on Urban. Am helping to mod one of the many FB anti-BT groups and we are approaching 10,000 members in our group alone. 

Haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread yet but I will later.

There are some protests planned in different parts of the country including London in March.

Some of our members are the people you may have seen on the national TV news and in the recent articles.

After months of bombarding MPs and the press and independent journalists with tweets, emails, letters etc they are finally responding and writing/running stories.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 4, 2013)

scifisam said:


> But people in social housing who work might also need to claim housing benefit, since the entitlement to HB is based on income. It's just that, if they're in private rentals, their rent is likely to be higher.


 
I read somewhere, approximately 67% of the people who receive HB are working.
Many are being f-ed over by extorntionate rents for private accomodation also!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 4, 2013)

The bedroom tax.
The HB cap.
The new rules regarding council tax...
Workfare
ATOS/ESA
The sneaky privatising of the NHS.

It's seriously nasty!


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Feb 5, 2013)

I am hearing about packed out public meetings across Merseyside. Anyways Thursday brings this;

*Thursday 7th Feb 2013 @ Midday - Combat the Bedroom Tax: Ruckus at Liverpool Mutual Homes (LMH) demo* - Commutation Row, L3 8QF Liverpool

Housing Associations have been complicit in the implementation of the Bedroom Tax since Day 1, and none more so than Liverpool Mutual Homes (LMH) who manage 15,000 homes in the City.

As well as issuing mind-numbing advice to tenants about the Bedroom Tax, the Chief Exec. of LMH, Steve Coffey, is even proposing the idea of getting tenants to do unpaid work, or workfare, to make up the shortfall in their rent: http://antiworkfare.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-return-of-workhouse.html

Make no bones about it, LMH won't hesistate to start legal proceedings if they can't collect the rent. They've even been to court over the treatment of their staff. That's why we, as tenants, need to make it known to LMH that we won't take any bullying or harassment.

Invite your family, friends, neighbours and community to the Ruckus at Liverpool Mutual Homes on Thurs 7th February and let's make sure LMH get the message:

We Can't Pay and We Won't Pay!

Bring Banners & Noise!


----------



## weepiper (Feb 5, 2013)

A Scottish protest is in the early stages of being planned for 30th of March

http://www.facebook.com/events/369488576491663/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

> Combat the Bedroom Tax: Ruckus at Liverpool Mutual Homes (LMH)
> Event for Combat the Bedroom Tax on Merseyside · By Yamazaki Agamben
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/events/472210886178901/


----------



## weepiper (Feb 6, 2013)

Goven Law Centre's petition to protect tenants from eviction for bedroom tax arrears in Scotland has got over a thousand signatures in 5 days so far

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/bedroomtax


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Better late than never?



> *People's Assembly Against Austerity*
> 
> 
> The Guardian,Tuesday 5 February 2013 21.00 GMT
> ...


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/05/people-assembly-against-austerity


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

> Anti-Bedroom Tax Protest(Scotland)
> Public · By Alan Wyllie
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/events/369488576491663/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Ed Milliband's secretary has contacted 2 members this week asking for permission to use their cases in the House of Commons today.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

An Early Day Motion...members are busy trying to get their local MPs to sign:



> *Early day motion 984*
> 
> *UNDER-OCCUPANCY PENALTY AND THE VULNERABLE*
> 
> ...


 


> *EDM 984 is specifically concerned with the bedroom tax, you can see who's signed it here: http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...er=984&orderby=DateSigned&orderdirection=Desc*
> 
> *E-mailing or talking to your MP about it would be helpful.*
> 
> *There's also EDM 718 which was tabled in November of last year: http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...er=718&orderby=DateSigned&orderdirection=Desc*


----------



## sihhi (Feb 6, 2013)

Report from housing associations on not being able to afford housing in Scotland

http://www.cas.org.uk/news/msp-comments-alarming-statistics


----------



## weepiper (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> An Early Day Motion...members are busy trying to get their local MPs to sign:


 
A further 12 MPs have signed that since I looked when you put the link up.

4 questions on the bedroom tax in PMQs today so far.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

> STOP THE BEDROOM TAX + OP LETS GET SHIRTY
> Public · By ConRaid Miles and A Real Freeman
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/events/147409045413846/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

> Let's Get Shirty - Post a shirt to Number 10
> Public · By Katy Anchant, Andy McCarthy and 3 others
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/events/556717384357813/permalink/557267394302812


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 6, 2013)

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....ax-pressure-group-calls-for-support-1-5385493



> John Davies, chairman of Hands Off Our Homes, said: ...“There are no one bedroom properties in the social housing sector to go to.  People will be looking for all sorts of different ways to help themselves.”
> The organisation, which was set up in 2005 by a group of tenants and homeowners, hopes to prevent people from being thrown out of their homes.
> Mr Davies said that more and more people are turning to the organisation for advice as they start to realise the impact of the changes.
> He added: “I’m wanting to bring tenants together who feel isolated.  They feel afraid at the moment and they don’t know what they will do in April.  If they know there are other people in a similar position then they will realise that they are not alone.”
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/events/556717384357813/permalink/557267394302812


 

He'll probably donate them all to charity shops so you can buy them back because you'll be too skint to buy new ones


----------



## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

the offices of Liverpool Mutual Homes are being occupied by protestors against the bedroom tax just now 






http://www.24dash.com/news/universa...-tax-activists-staging-protest-at-LMH-offices


----------



## marty21 (Feb 7, 2013)

Currently, pre-bedroom tax - the tenants I manage often find it difficult to pay the service charges which aren't covered by HB - such as communal heating/water rates - depending on the size of the  flat these can be up to £30pw - so add on the bedroom tax - and the only thing that will happen is the arrears will increase - evictions will increase - and it'll end up costing more as any families who are evicted will have to be placed in temporary accomodation - costing much more in HB costs


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> the offices of Liverpool Mutual Homes are being occupied by protestors against the bedroom tax just now
> 
> http://www.24dash.com/news/universa...-tax-activists-staging-protest-at-LMH-offices


 
Yep - good turn out, 40 plus protesters. I'm busy sorting out my photos - will post a link once done.


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Feb 7, 2013)

Ok photos from the Liverpool bedroom tax protest via the link.


----------



## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

Make 'em spend what they won't save woth the bedroom tax on policing whilst they're trying to cut police numbers and salaries.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 7, 2013)

I can imagine the Police spend increasing - Police are often asked to attend difficult evictions - I can see a lot of those happening - also a lot more Possession Hearings, stay hearings, etc as well


----------



## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

It's one of those policies which reveals the disgusting ideology behind the cuts, and much easier than trying to explain why austerity is self-defeating.

Stuff like this and Osborne cutting jobs at HMRC make it completely obvious that the deficit is not what they care about.

EDIT:

This is quite a handy article for understanding the true agenda:



> Eventually, however, the anti-Keynesian counterrevolution went far beyond Friedman’s position, which came to seem relatively moderate compared with what his successors were saying. Among financial economists, Keynes’s disparaging vision of financial markets as a “casino” was replaced by “efficient market” theory, which asserted that financial markets always get asset prices right given the available information. Meanwhile, many macroeconomists completely rejected Keynes’s framework for understanding economic slumps. Some returned to the view of Schumpeter and other apologists for the Great Depression, viewing recessions as a good thing, part of the economy’s adjustment to change. And even those not willing to go that far argued that any attempt to fight an economic slump would do more harm than good.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Currently, pre-bedroom tax - the tenants I manage often find it difficult to pay the service charges which aren't covered by HB - such as communal heating/water rates - depending on the size of the flat these can be up to £30pw - so add on the bedroom tax - and the only thing that will happen is the arrears will increase - evictions will increase - and it'll end up costing more as any families who are evicted will have to be placed in temporary accomodation - costing much more in HB costs


 
HB payments in the Privately rented sector are already more than in Social Housing sector. Why ar the government lying do you think?


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Feb 8, 2013)

I spoke, off the record, to a senior manager at another housing association - not LMH or demo related yesterday - and they said that their organisation expected to take a hit of 20% in rent turnover because of the bedroom tax. They were fairly sure that they wouldn't be evicting people - but who knows. They were fairly definate that repairs and maintenance would suffer though.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> HB payments in the Privately rented sector are already more than in Social Housing sector. Why ar the government lying do you think?


which would mean rent caps make more sense than the bedroom tax


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 9, 2013)

marty21 said:


> which would mean rent caps make more sense than the bedroom tax


 
I know Marty!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 9, 2013)

> @NewCharterGroup
> Lots of tenants here sharing their stories & getting #bedroomtax advice. We're here until 3pm to give you support. pic.twitter.com/aedUJkxV"


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 10, 2013)

leedshandsoffourhomes.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/leeds-anti-cuts-convention-feburary-16th/



> 11.30-4.30 pm, Swarthmore Centre
> 2-7 Woodhouse Square Leeds, Yorkshire LS3 1AD
> 2013 will be a crucial year for turning back the tide of Tory austerity, so anti-cuts campaigners are calling a Leeds-wide Anti-Cuts Convention to relaunch the resistance.
> The Convention will kick off with a Unison shop steward from the local Mid-Yorks Hospital strike, and a Hull Labour councillor who is one of a group of councillors who have pledged to refuse to pass on anymore Tory cuts.
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 13, 2013)

Found on Twitter



> Email from gov chief whip to Tory MPs: "Please could all colleagues refer to this issue as Underoccupancy and not the *bedroom* *tax* please."


----------



## vanquish01 (Feb 14, 2013)

Felt I had to comment, Social landlords, certainly the one I work for, are vehemently opposed to the bedroom tax, indeed some RSL's are seeking  information regarding bringing their own legal challenge against it. The sweeping statement included on this forum that all landlords are complicit in the implementation of this tax is incorrect. My company recognise the problems and aggravation this tax is going to bring and are looking at a variety of ways to assist our tenants. No one wants this, it is being forced upon us by central government.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 14, 2013)

vanquish01 said:


> The sweeping statement included on this forum that all landlords are complicit in the implementation of this tax


 
I don't think you've read the thread(s) properly.


----------



## treelover (Feb 14, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/events/472210886178901/


 

The turnout looks very poor


----------



## weepiper (Feb 14, 2013)




----------



## audiotech (Feb 15, 2013)

50 attend meeting in Leeds.

Hands off Our Homes.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2013)

Protest in The Wirral today.

*Bedroom Tax Campaign: details of 15 #Protests announced.http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/02/bedroom-tax-campaign-details-of-15.html*



> *Newcastle Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Warrington Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Carlisle Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Liverpool Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Durham Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Belfast Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*London Bedroom Tax Protest*​​*Glasgow Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Manchester Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Nottingham Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Norwich Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Peterborough Bedroom Tax Protest*​​*Cardiff Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Birmingham Bedroom Tax Protest *​​*Hull Bedroom Tax Protest *


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 18, 2013)

Helen Goodman MP going to live on £18



Would prefer if it she did it for three months though so she gets quarterly bills, or even if she only did it for a week but showed tv licence, water, phone, mobile, gas, electric payments etc.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

On her shopping



Day 1



and Day 2


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

I've not watched them yet, but who's uploading her videos?  Surely she shouldn't be entitled to internet access if she's on benefits


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

Do you think she should get her own thread? I reckon this'll get buried otherwise


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 19, 2013)

This is interesting, we have received a letter from the council asking whether we might consider applying for a council house, we had seen it on the list, but as it stipulated no children under 10 we had dismissed it. The council of course does not recognise that foster children exist, so offers this house to us, if we accept, can they then complain that we have foster children under 10?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 22, 2013)

Had a chat with the person who is organsing the leeds campaign.

They are advising people to 'stay calm and stay put'. If enough people do this, refusing to pay the extra rent and contesting evictions then it will quickly become unenforceable.

To evict a tenant costs the housing provider over £5000 in court fees etc - and then the judge may rule against the eviction. If enough people refuse to pay (and many many people will simply not be able to pay anyway) the housing providers will not be able to afford to evict.


Another key factor about this tax is that those affected are not just losing an 'extra' room - they are losing their longterm secure tenancy and getting short term, more expensive, poorer quality homes in the private sector in return. This point needs to made again and again to counter the bullshit that this is about people merely giving up the 'luxary' of having an additional room - they are being faced with a stiff financial penalty or losing their homes.

I believe most tenants are going to try and stay put (what real choice do they have?) - so a well organised non-payment campaign has great potential.

The bedroom tax is absolutely typical of this governments approach - a simplistic policy worked out on the back of an envelope, where the objections are dismissed as bureaucratic fiddle faddle and where there no conception as to how this actually affects people.

Those affected are going to resist and fight - its their homes for fucks sake - IDS cant see this because he just sees us as freeloaders having it large in our oversized, taxpayer funded pads and has no concept of the hardship he is inflicting.

Well i hope that we can make the ideologically blind, ghoulish cunt fucking eat it.

DONT PAY! FIGHT THE EVICITONS!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 23, 2013)

Sky News now and Helen Goodman MP


----------



## audiotech (Feb 25, 2013)

'Rebellion against Cameron'.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'Rebellion against Cameron'.


 
Good to see the mirror supporting this. Didn't know about the march in london on the 30th - could be big if the mirror bigs it up.

Near anniversary of this protest against a shitty tax by a tory government -


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2013)

What London campaigning groups are there?

marty21 ?


----------



## marty21 (Feb 26, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> What London campaigning groups are there?
> 
> marty21 ?


I didn't know


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

Parliamentary debate has been on for a while


----------



## weepiper (Feb 28, 2013)

Fundraising badges for a fighting fund

http://no2bedroomtax.spreadshirt.co...edroom-tax-badges-A23772624/customize/color/1






http://www.facebook.com/NO2BEDROOMTAX



> We need help in raising funds for both the demo and for a 'fighting fund' should this fight last longer than we expect.
> 
> If we do NOTHING, people will start to be evicted in October 2013 due to the bedroom tax.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 28, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Fundraising badges for a fighting fund
> 
> http://no2bedroomtax.spreadshirt.co...edroom-tax-badges-A23772624/customize/color/1
> 
> ...


 
erm, wont is missing an apostrophe.

Why 2 instead of *to?*

Not being nitpicky, but mistakes like that will just make people think the people wearing them are even more uneducated than they already assume they are


----------



## weepiper (Feb 28, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> erm, *wont is missing an apostrophe.*
> 
> Why 2 instead of *to?*
> 
> Not being nitpicky, but mistakes like that will just make people think the people wearing them are even more uneducated than they already assume they are


 
you're right, hadn't noticed that (this isn't me, just seen it on facebook) I will point it out


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 28, 2013)

weepiper said:


> you're right, hadn't noticed that (this isn't me, just seen it on facebook) I will point it out


 
Just think mistakes like that are ammunition for people who think everyone on benefits is uneducated scum

Have you seen this?  Gave me a giggle


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Feb 28, 2013)

about 350 people on Bedroom Tax demo in Bootle, Liverpool this lunchtime - photos to follow shortly


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Had a chat with the person who is organsing the leeds campaign.
> 
> They are advising people to 'stay calm and stay put'. If enough people do this, refusing to pay the extra rent and contesting evictions then it will quickly become unenforceable.
> 
> ...


 I posted something about this on the other thread - not sure about the £5000 cost tbh - court fees for a possession hearing are about £300, and eviction warrant is around £130 councils usually use in-house lawyers so no huge barrister fees - Housing Associations vary - some use outside firms - so their costs will be higher - a locksmith to gain entry - probably about £150

imo the shit will hit the fan in about 3 or 4 months - if a tenant stops paying the rent there are various actions before it reaches court and eviction.
Usually there will be an initial letter , a visit ,an interview - then a notice of seeking possession, another interview, an application to court for a possession order, a hearing at which point the RSl could be granted either a Possession Order, Suspended Possession Order, or the case is adjourned - I'd advise people who get to court to keep asking for adjournments as it clogs up the courts  If a Possession Order is granted - then the council can apply for a Bailiff's warrant - if it is suspended they can apply if the tenant breaches the terms - usually current rent plus a weekly amount off the arrears every week - if the tenant does not comply, then a bailiff's warrant can be applied for - once an eviction date is ordered - the tenant can apply for a Stay Hearing - where the judge will decide if it is reasonable to evict, then the evicion takes place if the judge decides it is reasonable - even after than a tenant can apply to have the decision set aside - there are loads of delays in the system -

once the courts get clogged up - it will affect Private landlords as well - as the same courts deal with their issues - so they will kick up a stink - which might make the government think again - as they are the small business sector - and tory votes could be lost


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

And as posted on the other thread - difficult for us housing professionals to get directly involved in a non-payment campaign - however much we support it - as we can't actively advise tenants not to pay their rent - we could lose our jobs (although that can take a long time to happen - it is still a concern) we can get involved under the radar though


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Feb 28, 2013)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> about 350 people on Bedroom Tax demo in Bootle, Liverpool this lunchtime - photos to follow shortly


 
Police estimates now at 1200 people. Photos on Demotix > Bedroom Tax Demo in Bootle


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

when the evictions start - and I'd have thought maybe 4/5 months after the bedroom tax is a likely time - I'm hoping there will be organised protests similar to the Scottish Protests against the Poll Tax in the late 80s - bailiffs will withdraw if a load of people turn up to stop an eviction - stopping them will clog up the courts even more - when the judges start complaining about being overworked, maybe then, their Tory chums will finally get the message


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2013)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> about 350 people on Bedroom Tax demo in Bootle, Liverpool this lunchtime - photos to follow shortly


 
at last the numbers are getting there, good news..


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I posted something about this on the other thread - not sure about the £5000 cost tbh - court fees for a possession hearing are about £300, and eviction warrant is around £130 councils usually use in-house lawyers so no huge barrister fees - Housing Associations vary - some use outside firms - so their costs will be higher - a locksmith to gain entry - probably about £150
> 
> imo the shit will hit the fan in about 3 or 4 months - if a tenant stops paying the rent there are various actions before it reaches court and eviction.
> Usually there will be an initial letter , a visit ,an interview - then a notice of seeking possession, another interview, an application to court for a possession order, a hearing at which point the RSl could be granted either a Possession Order, Suspended Possession Order, or the case is adjourned - I'd advise people who get to court to keep asking for adjournments as it clogs up the courts  If a Possession Order is granted - then the council can apply for a Bailiff's warrant - if it is suspended they can apply if the tenant breaches the terms - usually current rent plus a weekly amount off the arrears every week - if the tenant does not comply, then a bailiff's warrant can be applied for - once an eviction date is ordered - the tenant can apply for a Stay Hearing - where the judge will decide if it is reasonable to evict, then the evicion takes place if the judge decides it is reasonable - even after than a tenant can apply to have the decision set aside - there are loads of delays in the system -
> ...


 
Im going to a meeting tonight - I'll find out some more details on the cost of eviction procedures and where that figure comes from. 
But yes - the eviction process can be dragged out and good point about it affecting private landlords as well.


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2013)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> Police estimates now at 1200 people. Photos on Demotix > Bedroom Tax Demo in Bootle


 

great to see the historic community spirit return to Bootle, looks like the campaign is a goer...


----------



## audiotech (Mar 4, 2013)

Hmm, interesting. Realise that this is to to do with a mortgage and the banks, but interesting in regards to baliffs and what they can and cannot do under law, specifically civil law.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 4, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Hmm, interesting. Realise that this is to to do with a mortgage and the banks, but interesting in regards to baliffs and what they can and cannot do under law, specifically civil law.



 Local Authority Bailiffs will back off unless they have the Police with them - and the Police generally consider it a civil matter and don't have the resources to assist - this is likely to be fairly commonplace if and when bedroom tax evictions start


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 4, 2013)

Children to launch legal challenge

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...al-challenge-to-‘bedroom-tax’/6525992.article


----------



## marty21 (Mar 5, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/05/bedroom-tax-judge-ministers-review



> A high court judge has given the work and pensions secretary 14 days to show why there should not be a judicial review of the government's "spare bedroom tax", amid concerns that disabled people will be disproportionately affected by the change in benefit rules.


 
A bit last minute - but if the judge rules there should be a judicial review, does that delay introduction of the bedroom tax?


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 5, 2013)

Don't know if this has been posted but there's some stuff about how small rooms aren't legally bedrooms but boxrooms and so should not qualify for extra "bedroom" under-occupancy.


> One - but only one way - to combat the bedroom tax
> 
> One – but only one – of the challenges to the bedroom tax is the minimum size of your smallest bedroom.
> 
> ...


http://www.libcom.org/blog/how-combat-bedroom-tax-tape-measure-20022013
My old bedroom wouldn't be legally classed as such for example.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 5, 2013)

I have had a mutual exchange turned down as one of the tenants would be underoccupying if they moved - it used to be the case that mutual exchanges could take place if you were underoccupying by one room - clearly those days are gone - unless the Judicial Review application is successful and if it overturns the legislation -


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 5, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Don't know if this has been posted but there's some stuff about how small rooms aren't legally bedrooms but boxrooms and so should not qualify for extra "bedroom" under-occupancy.
> 
> http://www.libcom.org/blog/how-combat-bedroom-tax-tape-measure-20022013
> My old bedroom wouldn't be legally classed as such for example.


Only one of our bedrooms is over 70 sq feet. The room I sleep in with my husband is only just big enough for our bed (which was a nightmare to assemble in there).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Don't know if this has been posted but there's some stuff about how small rooms aren't legally bedrooms but boxrooms and so should not qualify for extra "bedroom" under-occupancy.
> 
> http://www.libcom.org/blog/how-combat-bedroom-tax-tape-measure-20022013
> My old bedroom wouldn't be legally classed as such for example.


 
Have read about that, but someone said that's a no-goer for certain reasons which I can't think of yet as have a fuzzy head. Will see if I can find link.

There's also the problem of a property being reclassified and downgraded to fewer bedrooms affecting property prices of neighbouring private properties and loads of other shit.

Here's some comments re:  reclassification

http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-network/2013/feb/23/top-tips-managing-bedroom-tax-social-housing


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2013)

Landlord warned off bedroom tax loophole

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/landlords-warned-off-bedroom-tax-loophole/6521688.article

and

Moody's cuts HAs credit ratings

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/fina...g-associations-credit-ratings/6525889.article


----------



## everything2go (Mar 6, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/events/415841695176263/

Planned action in Oxford in Bonn Square on the 16th March at 1pm.


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## treelover (Mar 6, 2013)

''We want the Bedroom Tax scrapped in its entirety. To register our opposition to the #BedroomTax, at 1 pm on _16 March_, people opposed to the #BedroomTax will be gathering in city centres in 40 locations throughout the UK to protest against the policy.  You can join us on the day by following _*the links to the event pages of each protest by clicking*_ any one of the #BedroomTax protests below. Note that 4 of the protests below will be taking place on the 30 March:

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/03/40-bedroom-tax-protests-across-uk-see.html

over 40 protests UK wide, this is a genuine grassroots revolt, though the LP are attemting to co-opt it to a degree...


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## beeboo (Mar 6, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Don't know if this has been posted but there's some stuff about how small rooms aren't legally bedrooms but boxrooms and so should not qualify for extra "bedroom" under-occupancy.
> 
> http://www.libcom.org/blog/how-combat-bedroom-tax-tape-measure-20022013
> My old bedroom wouldn't be legally classed as such for example.


 
Unfortunately the size of bedrooms doesn't provide any official exemption. There's various definitions of a 'bedroom' in different circumstances but the regulations on the bedroom tax say nothing at all about what a bedroom is or isn't.  The guidance more-or-less says the number of bedroom you have is what is written into your tenancy agreement (assuming your tenancy agreement mentions the number of bedrooms).

There's some chance that legal challenges could be mounted which cite these other definitions of what a bedroom is/isn't to argue that smaller "boxrooms" shouldn't be considered as bedrooms.  However no-one has attempted to do this (yet?) against the policy as a whole.  It could be used as defence in court when it comes to individual possession cases, but it would be far from safe to assume that the courts would agree.

There's a blog about it here by a housing lawyer which explains more:

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2013/02/room-without-review-thoughts-on-tackling-the-bedroom-tax/

If you think that your tenancy agreement genuinely mis-represents the number of bedrooms you actually have, you can raise this with your landlord.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

> *Lee Jasper @LeeJasper
> Come and support #UniteCommunitySection leafleting opposing #BedroomTax Sat 9th March 1-3pm brixton Tube #RiseUp*


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*@ShefAntiCuts Unite community are sponsoring a community meeting this thursday against the #bedroomtax and cuts in http://fb.me/2oCiigPWC*


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## _angel_ (Mar 8, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I have had a mutual exchange turned down as one of the tenants would be underoccupying if they moved - it used to be the case that mutual exchanges could take place if you were underoccupying by one room - clearly those days are gone - unless the Judicial Review application is successful and if it overturns the legislation -


Tell me about this Marty. Is it all social landlords or just who you work for.

What would the situation of a council tenant looking to homeswap a two bed for another two bed on the grounds of having the kids over sometimes be judged?


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2013)

Anti Bedroom Tax Protest in Scotland
UNISON Glasgow City Branch is running a free bus to Dundee for anti bedroom tax lobby of LibDems conference on 16 March. Please call 552 -7069 or email enquiries@glasgowcityunison.co.uk to book your seat.


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## tufty79 (Mar 11, 2013)

http://handsoffourhomes.org.uk/2013/03/11/stop-the-bedroom-tax-demonstration-april-20th/



> We are planning a big demo in Leeds City centre to show the council how many of us are keeping calm and staying put and how many of us are going to support all those that do. Our main demand will be on the council to refuse to evict anyone building up arrears due to this barbaric tax. We will also be calling on Leeds City Council join us in standing up to the government and opposing the tax and to build more council homes tens of thousands of which have been lost in the last 30 years.We have not got all the details yet except it will be on the Saturday, April 20th and it will be in Leeds City centre but check here for updates, save the date and spread the word. We want this to be BIG!​


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

As well as certain severely disabled children being exempt,



*ARMY PERSONNEL STILL LIVING AT HOME (WITH PARENTS) AND FOSTER CARERS EXEMPT*


*Duncan Smith: Exemptions introduced to 'bedroom tax'*​​Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Iain Duncan Smith has announced that foster carers and army personnel will be exempt from the so-called "bedroom tax".​​In a *Written Ministerial Statement*, he wrote: "People who are approved foster carers will be allowed an additional room, whether or not a child has been placed with them or they are between placements, so long as they have fostered a child, or become an approved foster carer in the last 12 months.​​"Adult children who are in the Armed Forces but who continue to live with parentswill be treated as continuing to live at home, even when deployed on operations."​


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 12, 2013)

Great news (although frankly they should drop the whole stupid plan). I hope barney_pig knows about it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Great news (although frankly they should drop the whole stupid plan). I hope barney_pig knows about it.


 
and it's only for people who have already fostered or become an approved carer in the last 12 months, just in case the 100s of thousands affected decided to apply to become a foster carer


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## barney_pig (Mar 12, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Great news (although frankly they should drop the whole stupid plan). I hope barney_pig knows about it.


My mp is going to be all "look at me", he replied to my letter stating he would take up our case with IDS


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## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/

there are now 55 BT protests on Saturday right across the Uk, mostly organised by non activist communities...


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## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-interactive-map-weekends-1760498

Daily Mirror gets behind the protests


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## audiotech (Mar 14, 2013)

Details to be announced.

http://handsoffourhomes.org.uk/


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2013)

Good meeting in little london, leeds tonight. Decent turn out - lots of anger but also a lot of positivity.  Communities coming together in adversity and all that. 
BBC were there and the journalist came across as very clued up and very much supportive.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 14, 2013)

Fairly biased (imo) piece on the One Show tonight.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 15, 2013)

..


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## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

Someone seems to be spreading misinformation saying the protests are cancelled when they are clearly not...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

treelover said:


> Someone seems to be spreading misinformation saying the protests are cancelled when they are clearly not...


 
where?


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## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

on various local FB pages...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

treelover said:


> on various local FB pages...


 
Is it the same person or lots of people?


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## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...k-at-liverpool-protest-rally-100252-32996055/


don't think it's major

anyway, bot..


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## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

Apparently, This Morning just pulled a package on the B/T 'for legal reasons'.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 15, 2013)




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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 15, 2013)

http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/2013-03-15-Council-no-tenant-to-be-evicted-over-bedroom-tax

Any more (local) news on this? A tweet mentioned Dundee as well?


----------



## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

Brighton is the Greens, great news...


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## weepiper (Mar 15, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/2013-03-15-Council-no-tenant-to-be-evicted-over-bedroom-tax
> 
> Any more (local) news on this? A tweet mentioned Dundee as well?


 
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/lo...t-to-evict-tenants-hit-by-bedroom-tax-1.76104


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## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

audiotech said:


>





who is the Trade Unionist shouting about calling a general strike?

its going to struggle being an SWP led org...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

treelover said:


> Apparently, This Morning just pulled a package on the B/T 'for legal reasons'.


 


Meanwhile, IDS has been ranting at the BBC over their continued use of the words "bedroom tax"



> War of words: IDS slams BBC for using 'bedroom tax'
> 
> Tory efforts to prevent the term 'bedroom tax' taking hold took on a new urgency today, after Iain Duncan Smith wrote a letter to the BBC demanding they stop using Labour language.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/2013-03-15-Council-no-tenant-to-be-evicted-over-bedroom-tax
> 
> Any more (local) news on this? A tweet mentioned Dundee as well?


 
Yep, Dundee was getting loads of tweets yesterday


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 15, 2013)

Any national media coverage?


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## audiotech (Mar 15, 2013)

treelover said:


> who is the Trade Unionist shouting about calling a general strike?
> 
> its going to struggle being an SWP led org...


 
I was interested in the community groups featured and coming together on this and others will be too and inspired perhaps? I don't wish to engage in the minutia of far-left politics, well not on this thread anyway.


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## weepiper (Mar 15, 2013)

East Lothian Council seem pretty reluctant to evict tenants for it too:

http://www.eastlothiannews.co.uk/ne...uncil-s-bedroom-tax-eviction-pledge-1-2812264


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## weepiper (Mar 15, 2013)

Edinburgh City Council is considering a motion put forward by a Green councillor proposing no evictions

http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/02/greens-urge-no-evictions-on-bedroom-tax/



> 5) Therefore resolves that, in determining when and whether to initiate and pursue proceedings to recover a tenancy as a consequence of rent arrears, the council will:
> - Calculate the sum by which the household's housing benefit payment has been reduced by under-occupancy restrictions
> - Disregard that sum in relation to action for recovery of the tenancy (eviction).”
> 
> ...


 
-that's from the minutes of that meeting


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

weepiper said:


> East Lothian Council seem pretty reluctant to evict tenants for it too:
> 
> http://www.eastlothiannews.co.uk/ne...uncil-s-bedroom-tax-eviction-pledge-1-2812264


 
Before people get *too *excited about this, I'm sure I read of another council doing it but it's only for 1 year.  Exactly what happens after 1 year, I'm not sure.  (It may have been Dundee, 'cos there's only a few of them so far that have said they're doing it)


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## weepiper (Mar 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Before people get *too *excited about this, I'm sure I read of another council doing it but it's only for 1 year. Exactly what happens after 1 year, I'm not sure. (It may have been Dundee, 'cos there's only a few of them so far that have said they're doing it)


 
Yeah Dundee has only promised it for a year. Testing the waters I think.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Yeah Dundee has only promised it for a year. Testing the waters I think.


 
I'd bet a lot of people aren't aware of that. The impression I get from reading comments on news stories and twitter is that a lot of people are only reading headlines or tweets, and don't read the full story 

Still good of Dundee and other councils to do it though


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

I've just come across this



> Just to clarify the Bedroom Tax for IDS.
> 
> *According to Black's Law Dictionary*, a tax is a "pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property owners to support the government. a payment exacted by legislative authority." It "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government, whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name."
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/lak69k


 
If it's true, will IDS have to think of yet another name for it, and what happened to the Under-Occupancy Penalty? 

Maybe they'll just call it Housing Benefit Reduction to make it clearer


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

The Mirror



> *Bedroom tax backlash: Now even Iain Duncan Smith's own aide tells of fears it will hit vulnerable*
> 
> 16 Mar 2013 00:00
> Ministers Owen Paterson and Alistair Burt and deputy chief whip John Randall have also asked what help is available for those struggling
> ...


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Any national media coverage?


 
Polly Toynbee commented about BT generally in Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/15/bedroom-tax-march-heartless-reform


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## treelover (Mar 16, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I was interested in the community groups featured and coming together on this and others will be too and inspired perhaps? I don't wish to engage in the minutia of far-left politics, well not on this thread anyway.


 
of course, but there is a past history of failure, this is too important to fail...


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## Roadkill (Mar 16, 2013)

Just got back from the Hull bedroom tax protest.  I'd guess there were a couple of hundred out, with which the organisers seemed pretty pleased.  Two of the local MPs spoke, and then stood looking rather uncomfortable as a bloke from the local TUC branch took the microphone and reminded them that if they ended up in office and tried to carry on the Tories' policies they'd be getting the same treatment.


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## scifisam (Mar 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Meanwhile, IDS has been ranting at the BBC over their continued use of the words "bedroom tax"


 
"Bedroom tax" is pretty emotive, TBF, but "spare room subsidy" is far worse - inaccurate and emotive.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

scifisam said:


> "Bedroom tax" is pretty emotive, TBF, but "spare room subsidy" is far worse - inaccurate and emotive.


 
Under-occupancy penalty seems to have gone out of favour.  Maybe they thought penalty sounded too harsh


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

> *Put your kids on a sofa bed: Out-of-touch Tory tells separated dad his children don't need own bedroom*
> 
> The former banker suggested BBC Radio 5 Live caller did not deserve a spare bedroom for his three children to sleep in at weekends.
> 
> ...


----------



## captainmission (Mar 16, 2013)

Just been to the Manchester protest where their was several hundred people.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Meanwhile, IDS has been ranting at the BBC over their continued use of the words "bedroom tax"


 
Oh, reaaaally? The fucktoad. Personally I have issues with him using the term 'state handout'. The runt! Ranting Runt!

ETA: Ranting Runt Cunt!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

BBC haven't mentioned the bedroom tax at all today either


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2013)

Fuck the BBC. A fuck Lord Freud in the face with a poker an all.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 16, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/02/iain-duncan-smith-polemic-politics-cynical


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## audiotech (Mar 16, 2013)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> Polly Toynbee commented about BT generally in Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/15/bedroom-tax-march-heartless-reform


 
Not reading it, as I pretty certain it will be her usual hand-wringing. Is it?


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Not reading it, as I pretty certain it will be her usual hand-wringing. Is it?


 
of course


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2013)

Tweets I'm reading of fash (NF) turning up at Liverpool demo only to be greeted by Labour. Those opposing told they were being divisive. What the fucking fuck?


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)

Several hundred at the protest in Liverpool. Labour Party councillors and Maria Eagle, Labour Party MP received a mixed reception from the large crowd, many suggesting that they were bandwagon jumping on a grassroots direct action campaign. Hecklers with mega-phones asked for commitments and policy changes from the Labour Party. Others asked for unity and for the dissenters to keep quiet. Classic call from the stage to stop interuptions "We're not here to talk about politics" - major faceplam !


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)

Yep - three local NF turned up and were quickly surrounded by anti-fascists, who were then told to calm down by various Labour Party machine-bots. Crazy !


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2013)

Fucking wankers.


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## Roadkill (Mar 16, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Not reading it, as I pretty certain it will be her usual hand-wringing. Is it?


 
Yes, it is. But at least she talked about the protests and encouraged people to get out on them - which tbh is how I heard about them. With the honourable exception of the _Mirror_ the rest of the media are studiously ignoring them.  Fuckers.


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## frogwoman (Mar 16, 2013)

is there much of a chance of stopping this then?


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)




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## audiotech (Mar 16, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> is there much of a chance of stopping this then?


 
The tory's have clearly lost the argument, even now amongst their own supporters, so yes.


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## lazythursday (Mar 16, 2013)

I went along to the Manchester protest. Found it slightly dispiriting really. A few hundred people being harangued by someone with a completely inaudible microphone. Hung around for ten minutes and thought, 'sod it, what's the point?' and went to the pub. I feel bad criticising this kind of thing given my own armchair activism but it felt like a wasted opportunity - little attempt to reach out to shoppers, not even trying to get people who'd turned up to participate in some concrete action, even if that was just giving over contact details etc.


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## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)

Images of the Liverpool Bedroom Tax Protest via the jump on Demotix


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## Blagsta (Mar 16, 2013)

Apparently there's rumours on twitter that the NF were allowed on Liverpool demo. Hopefully just a stupid internet rumour? Anyone confirm/deny?
https://mobile.twitter.com/compose/reply/312331870773846019


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2013)

Go back a page Blags


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## audiotech (Mar 16, 2013)

More on today's rally's.


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## Blagsta (Mar 16, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Go back a page Blags


Ok!


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Ok!


 
Here ya go: http://combatbedroomtax.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/grassroots-campaigners-challenge-labour.html?spref=tw


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## Blagsta (Mar 16, 2013)

A couple of hundred, maximum in Birmingham. Liam Byrne was heckled. Didn't really hear any of the other speakers as we had the kids with us. Went to some of the Birmingham anti-cuts conference after, but again also had kids with us and a creche hadn't been organised. Main impressions were it was dominated by students and Unison bureacrats. Some anon there in masks, who refused to take masks off when it was pointed out it looks intimidating and alienating. Was put to vote and the majority abstained, with students voting masks could be kept on, so on they stayed. Some talk about community organising but mostly same old same old. We left before the motions.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 16, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> A couple of hundred, maximum in Birmingham. Liam Byrne was heckled. Didn't really hear any of the other speakers as we had the kids with us. Went to some of the Birmingham anti-cuts conference after, but again also had kids with us and *a creche hadn't been organised*. Main impressions were it was dominated by students and Unison bureacrats. Some anon there in masks, who refused to take masks off when it was pointed out it looks intimidating and alienating. Was put to vote and the majority abstained, with students voting masks could be kept on, so on they stayed. Some talk about community organising but mostly same old same old. We left before the motions.


 
They said they would organise a creche but on Monday at the batc meeting no-one had contacted them to say they wanted it... 

The other speakers were largely sound - loads of people calling out Labour and Liam Byrne over their welfare record. Only a couple of people who are actually affected by the bedroom tax though.

I find it really hard to judge numbers in that kind of place, lots of people but all spread around. Need an arial photo and put dots on people in photoshop


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 16, 2013)

Yeah it may well have been more than 200, I was distracted by the kids.

A creche should be organised as standard, not just by request IMO.


----------



## Roadkill (Mar 16, 2013)

lazythursday said:


> I went along to the Manchester protest. Found it slightly dispiriting really. A few hundred people being harangued by someone with a completely inaudible microphone. Hung around for ten minutes and thought, 'sod it, what's the point?' and went to the pub. I feel bad criticising this kind of thing given my own armchair activism but it felt like a wasted opportunity - little attempt to reach out to shoppers, not even trying to get people who'd turned up to participate in some concrete action, even if that was just giving over contact details etc.


 
That's a shame.  Tbh there was a bit of the same in Hull - a couple of hundred people standing in the rain straining to hear Diana Johnson (*spit*) talk about Labour's opposition to the tax - and it was slightly out of the main shopping area; although right outside the BBC building, which perhaps did make sense.  On the other hand, it was encouraging to see a lot of people there - families with kids, especially - who probably aren't anything like regular activists, and when the organisers asked people to sign up for a mailing list, with the aim (they said) of building resistance locally to the bedroom tax and austerity more generally, there was a big old queue to sign.  Besides, any protest where people turn out in pyjamas and dressing gowns with placards saying 'Ministers get out of my bedroom!' on a cold rainy day in Hull can't be all bad!


----------



## sevenstars (Mar 16, 2013)

I was at the Liverpool protest, if there were any fascists there they weren't identifying themselves as such. Perhaps the level of hostility directed at a Labour protest from some in the crowd just gave that impression?

The heckling of the speakers was annoying most of the crowd who repeatedly gave the biggest cheers for a united protest. One activist who spoke from the platform defended the hecklers from people in the protest who were by now queing up to tell them to shut up, and spoke up instead for the community campaigners, who have been organising before this event, and critised the lack of support from Labour and the unions.

However some people then got very angry with one heckler when there was a school boy speaking from the platform, and personally I was not impressed when a women from the Kirkby campaign had to struggle to be heard over an anarchist with a mega-phone.

At the end they had their own rally, and some people stayed to listen to that.

Im not hostile to anarchists, ive learned a lot from them politically, but if they are going to face the Labour movement as their enemy when they are actually speaking up for us lots of working class people will not be impressed.


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## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 16, 2013)

sevenstars said:


> I was at the Liverpool protest, if there were any fascists there they weren't identifying themselves as such. Perhaps the level of hostility directed at a Labour protest from some in the crowd just gave that impression.


 
Definately were three young members of the NF there - I've seen them at many far-right demos. Quite a bizarre event for sure !


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

£240 on 8 cushions 

Mark Hoban's expenses (2009 report)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...on-covers-will-do-for-Tory-MP-Mark-Hoban.html


----------



## sevenstars (Mar 16, 2013)

Im sure your right then, but I didnt see them identify themselves or be challenged by anti-fascists in the crowd either.


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 17, 2013)

Report from Liverpool - http://libcom.org/blog/labour-party...anti-bedroom-tax-campaigns-liverpool-16032013


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## sevenstars (Mar 17, 2013)

http://baytvliverpool.com/vod/index.php?vid=ABV5144c3e9de231 is a good account of yesterday.

The community groups are planning a joint event on 30th March now, I believe


----------



## audiotech (Mar 17, 2013)

Building a campaign is the priority here and not ultra-left posturing, that's likely to alienate. Still wearing 'V' masks - fashion victims! I can't see this going anywhere with this level of bollocks.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 17, 2013)

sevenstars said:


> http://baytvliverpool.com/vod/index.php?vid=ABV5144c3e9de231 is a good account of yesterday.
> 
> The community groups are planning a joint event on 30th March now, I believe


 
I think I read last night that London, Manchester, Liverpool and erm, another big city (maybe Glasgow) were holding one on 30th

I'm sure the info's probably on that page listing all the other protest dates


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 17, 2013)

treelover said:


> over 40 protests UK wide, this is a genuine grassroots revolt, though the LP are attemting to co-opt it to a degree...


 
Following Éoin Clarke on Twitter, I thought this was exclusively organised by Labour Left! Only one person called him out on anything and that was the tactic of even having demonstrations.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 17, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Building a campaign is the priority here and not ultra-left posturing, that's likely to alienate. Still wearing 'V' masks - fashion victims! I can't see this going anywhere with this level of bollocks.


 
Lets face it, any campaign with regards to anything is overrun by groups trying to gain brownie points with the public or new members. One of my first experiences of activism was the demonstration outside Selly Oak Job Centre when a man had, unfortunately, set himself alight. It was on a Saturday and the building didn't appear to have anyone inside. There was one political group there, I think they called themselves the Marxist Party or Marxist Communist Party or something to that effect (I haven't seen them at a demonstration since), but they were the only political group there, and I found it to be particularly alienating, not just due to the fact that they were waving red flags and there were no placards that seemed relevant to the event, but also because they appeared to be using it as a mere photo opportunity, which I found to be particularly disgusting. 

When you have a crowd of a thousand with different groups all holding placards and waving flags, it becomes less alienating. The problem arises when only one group turn up with their banners and they completely saturate the event.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 17, 2013)

muscovyduck said:


> Following Éoin Clarke on Twitter, I thought this was exclusively organised by Labour Left! Only one person called him out on anything and that was the tactic of even having demonstrations.


 
Labour aren't exactly opposed to the BT


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 17, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Labour aren't exactly opposed to the BT


 
I know, and it was why I didn't exert any enthusiasm about the demonstrations - I had quickly come to the conclusion that Labour were using them to distract from any real organising. I wouldn't mind but the issue of mainstream parties taking the credit for other people's work has been something I've become increasing frustrated about recently, yet it didn't occur to me that it wasn't exclusively Labour organising these demonstrations.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 18, 2013)

BigTom said:


> They said they would organise a creche but on Monday at the batc meeting no-one had contacted them to say they wanted it...


 
http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wordpress.com/upcoming-actions/ says creche isn't provided for the next meeting. I do agree that it's best to organise one without a request for it, but I can see why someone wouldn't.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

*Urgent news for parents of disabled children renting in private sector – money back from DWP*

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2013/03/urge...enting-in-private-sector-money-back-from-dwp/


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## BigTom (Mar 18, 2013)

muscovyduck said:


> http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wordpress.com/upcoming-actions/ says creche isn't provided for the next meeting. I do agree that it's best to organise one without a request for it, but I can see why someone wouldn't.



Different organisations/events (though I understand the confusion).
Batc tried to find someone who'd do a creche a year or so ago and couldn't, but we've had children at our meetings on a couple of occasions without problem. Kind of different when it's a two hour meeting rather than a half day conference though.

CPGB (ML) were the political group at the selly oak jcp thing, bunch of Stalinist fools.


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## sojourner (Mar 18, 2013)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> Several hundred at the protest in Liverpool. Labour Party councillors and Maria Eagle, Labour Party MP received a mixed reception from the large crowd, many suggesting that they were bandwagon jumping on a grassroots direct action campaign. Hecklers with mega-phones asked for commitments and policy changes from the Labour Party. Others asked for unity and for the dissenters to keep quiet. Classic call from the stage to stop interuptions "*We're not here to talk about politics"* - major faceplam !


And that's when I nearly died of shame. I couldn't fucking believe she said that.

I do think a better tactic for Combat might have been to get on the stage themselves and use the mic, because they managed to alienate a good portion of the crowd who didn't know about Combat and all their work so far. If they'd taken the stage they could have explained to everyone about the bandwagonning and asked the Labour councillors for their plans for a strategy to fight it, rather than allowing them to stand there paying lip service. Saying they oppose it is not the same as planning to fight it.

Also, do we not need a voice in Parliament? Would that not go a long way to help?  If Labour get in next, and it's my bet they will, then I reckon they will be less impervious/more malleable to debate and pressure than Cameron's bunch of cunts.


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## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Building a campaign is the priority here and not ultra-left posturing, that's likely to alienate. Still wearing 'V' masks - fashion victims! I can't see this going anywhere with this level of bollocks.


Interesting point. The issue of people wearing these masks in a public meeting was raised at the Birmingham anti cuts conference on Saturday. A very small  minority thought it intimidating. A (larger) vocal minority (mainly students) thought it ok. The majority didn't voice an opinion.

Since when was it ok to be masked up in a public meeting? On a street demo, fine. At a conference? How can anyone think this is ok?


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## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Different organisations/events (though I understand the confusion).
> Batc tried to find someone who'd do a creche a year or so ago and couldn't, but we've had children at our meetings on a couple of occasions without problem. Kind of different when it's a two hour's meeting rather than a half day conference though.
> 
> CPGB (ML) were the political group at the selly oak jcp thing, bunch of Stalinist fools.


Surely a creche should be organised by the group itself, rather than getting in people specially? Basic self organisation innit? Isn't this what we're aiming for?


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 18, 2013)

Agreed but when we've done a creche for community stuff you need enhanced CRB people to run it which may be a stumbling block.


eta
I haven't done creches for big rallies, more small stuff on the estate, but the principle holds.


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## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Agreed but when we've done a creche for community stuff you need enhanced CRB people to run it which may be a stumbling block.


Not for something as informal as a political meeting. The anarchist bookfair manages it!


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 18, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Not for something as informal as a political meeting.


 That's not what I've been told, and when we've done it it's not been a formal thing. It was a social worker who told us this and she said we needed insurance too.


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## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

Anyone know how the bookfair does it?


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## Fedayn (Mar 18, 2013)

In Scotland Tommy Sheridan has been elected the interim secretary of the West of Scotland organising committee.... Tommy opposes the 'Bedroom Tax', I bet he does.....


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## BigTom (Mar 18, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Surely a creche should be organised by the group itself, rather than getting in people specially? Basic self organisation innit? Isn't this what we're aiming for?


 
Um, yeah, that's what we tried to do, but couldn't find anyone who'd do it. The problems of CRB checking/insurance etc were also raised, as to whether we'd need a registered childminder but since no-one came forward who'd be happy to do the creche I don't think anybody ever looked into it further.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 18, 2013)

BigTom said:


> The problems of CRB checking/insurance etc were also raised, as to whether we'd need a registered childminder


It doesn't need to be a childminder, just someone with an enhanced CRB check. In practice that worked out to be an admin officer from a school and a student teacher.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 18, 2013)

BigTom anyone from school admin staff, dinner ladies, careworkers, those working with elderly, learning disabled people etc etc. An astonishing amount of people have to have enhanced CRB checks now (because, basically, of the Soham murders).


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## treelover (Mar 18, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> In Scotland Tommy Sheridan has been elected the interim secretary of the West of Scotland organising committee.... Tommy opposes the 'Bedroom Tax', I bet he does.....


 
he is prepared to stick his neck on the line again, good for him..


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## weepiper (Mar 18, 2013)

treelover said:


> he is prepared to stick his neck on the line again, good for him..


 
It's not sticking his neck on the line. He doesn't get Housing Benefit and can't be evicted for this.


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## Fedayn (Mar 18, 2013)

treelover said:


> he is prepared to stick his neck on the line again, good for him..


 
How is he sticking his neck on the line exactly? It's him desperate to be rehabilitated and over a bedroom tax, irony is dead....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

Lambeth Council to Evict Tenants in Arrears due to BT



> *Monday, 18 March 2013*
> 
> *Lambeth Council to evict tenants who fall into arrears as a result of Bedroom Tax*
> 
> ...


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## treelover (Mar 19, 2013)

UkiP and EDL supporters seem to be increasing their presence on BT social media sites...


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## audiotech (Mar 21, 2013)

Housing Association Declarations? The advice is don't sign.

Bedroom tax challenges.




> ...632 staff solely dealing with bedroom tax challenges.





> That assumes they need to do this in one month.
> It further assumes that 8 hours of staff time per appeal or challenge is sufficient as per the DWP estimate.
> It further assumes each appeal or challenge is looked at by only 1 member of staff and doesn’t need 2 for example.
> Even if they took a year to respond to each challenge this means 53 full-time staff!!
> It further assumes LCC could find 632 or even 53 HB trained staff and LCC would be competing locally with Wirral, Sefton, St Helens, Knowsley, Cheshire West and Chester, and countless other LAs in a commutable area for these ethereal HB trained staff too Of course every other council would be in the same boat of searching for HB trained staff. So this is impossible unless IDS can wave a magic wand and produce trained HB decision-making staff out of the ether.


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## treelover (Mar 21, 2013)

Bit suspect, Labour Left have called a demo in Leeds, 10 days after the Hands Of Our Homes one, which had been planned for sometime...


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## treelover (Mar 21, 2013)

HOOH local area meeting in Leeds


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## audiotech (Mar 21, 2013)

Knowing your hostilities to anything 'swappie', you might want reconsider your posting of the above video treelover, now being made aware that the speaker is a long-standing member of the SWP, as is the chair and the other guy speaking, who is a retired solicitor.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 21, 2013)

I don't know whether anyone else has said this but the whole point is to get as many people as possible out of council flats and into private accommodation (having bloody well calculated in the extra money they will be spending on putting up people in B&B(collateral damage to them)) with the aim of getting rid of council flats/accommodation altogehter, isn't it?


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## BigTom (Mar 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> I don't know whether anyone else has said this but the whole point is to get as many people as possible out of council flats and into private accommodation (having bloody well calculated in the extra money they will be spending on putting up people in B&B(collateral damage to them)) with the aim of getting rid of council flats/accommodation altogehter, isn't it?


 
That won't actually get rid of council flats though, someone else will move into the flat. But what people may be able to do, especially with the mortgage support thing announced in yesterday's budget is use their right to buy to purchase the flat, reducing the amount of council housing available.
But there will be a lot of people who can't pay and can't move and housing associations/councils that will have arrears slowly building up, long time before they are high enough to warrant evictions and losing this income will be harmful, some HAs are really worried about this. 
Then you have 80% market rates so watch social housing rents shoot up at least in part to cover this shortfall (though I have no doubt most/many/all HAs and councils would put rents up anyway)


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## audiotech (Mar 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> I don't know whether anyone else has said this but the whole point is to get as many people as possible out of council flats and into private accommodation (having bloody well calculated in the extra money they will be spending on putting up people in B&B(collateral damage to them)) with the aim of getting rid of council flats/accommodation altogehter, isn't it?


 
Nope, it's rather in economic terms, the use of the price mechanism to further push people into insecure, low-paid, employment and also as a stick to beat those already in work to accept the worsening of wages and conditions. Government estimates banded about give '"savings" of £505 million' in the first year. Debatable, given the costs that will come about, that are expected to outweigh any "savings".


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> I don't know whether anyone else has said this but the whole point is to get as many people as possible out of council flats and into private accommodation (having bloody well calculated in the extra money they will be spending on putting up people in B&B(collateral damage to them)) with the aim of getting rid of council flats/accommodation altogehter, isn't it?


 
I think so, yes - Or at least to drastically reduce the amount of council stock. When this legislation starts to bite, some property types will become very difficult to let & councils will either demolish them or sell them of to private developers.


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## audiotech (Mar 21, 2013)

All estimates on how this change will affect people, including the governments very own, indicate that most people affected will be staying put and paying the extra.


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## treelover (Mar 21, 2013)

Interestingly,  (no link yet)Liberty is get involved with challenging the BT, in the past they have refused point blank to take on anything to do with the benefits system.


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## Ground Elder (Mar 21, 2013)

> nterestingly, (no link yet)Liberty is get involved with challenging the BT


 Liberty Press Release


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## treelover (Mar 21, 2013)

I think this is important, for all its faults, Liberty punches way above its weight, can only be a good thing..


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## kenny g (Mar 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> I think this is important, for all its faults, Liberty punches way above its weight, can only be a good thing..


 
So now the state is expected to subsidise blokes who have left the family home having enough spare rooms to have the children visit. And this is in a country with a housing crisis. The world's gone mad.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> So now the state is expected to subsidise blokes who have left the family home having enough spare rooms to have the children visit. And this is in a country with a housing crisis. The world's gone mad.


 
Helping kids maintain a relationship with both parents. DISGUSTING!!!


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## BigTom (Mar 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> I think this is important, for all its faults, Liberty punches way above its weight, can only be a good thing..



Yep, and also really good to see someone talking about separated parents and the issues this causes for them, it's a group that I feel has been neglected in the coverage of the adverse effects of the bt


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## Greebo (Mar 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> So now the state is expected to subsidise blokes who have left the family home having enough spare rooms to have the children visit. And this is in a country with a housing crisis. The world's gone mad.


What of women who've had to leave the family home?


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Yep, and also really good to see someone talking about separated parents and the issues this causes for them, it's a group that I feel has been neglected in the coverage of the adverse effects of the bt


 
Indeed - its exactly the position I'm in. Many separated parents share responsibility for the children - which is surely only to be encouraged. But the tax and benefits system does not recognise this - the parent who does not get the child benefit payments gets no extra help with childcare costs, or tax rates etc.

Many people hit by the bedroom tax were given two - or three bed - tenancies because they had their kids stay with them on a regular basis. Many (like myself) were working and paying the rent and have since lost their jobs. We are now faced with effectively losing  a meaningful role as a parent - or being hit with an unaffordable financial penalty.

I really hope liberty have success with this - it looks like a strong case to me. If this is successful it could well kill the bedroom tax.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2013)

On evictions - the solicitor who works for leeds hands off our homes is well versed in housing law. He is saying that no judge will grant an eviction order under the bedroom tax - having worked in housing and seen judges refuse evictions before in far weaker cases, I think he is right. 

If you are falling into arrears due to the bedroom it cant be argued that you have willfully failed to pay the rent - it is a de facto case of you not having the means to do so. This also means if you _are_ evicted, the local authority have a statutory duty to house you as have not made yourself 'intentionally homeless' (i.e. by spunking the rent down the bookies) - which will mean very expensive emergency accommodation. 

In addition the full costs of the eviction process run into several thousands of pounds (far more than the annual  rent arrears of the bedroom tax) and that's before you get organised groups lodging repeated appeals and blocking baliffs. 

SHOs will huff and puff and threaten, but if tenants sit tight, they will not be evicted.


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## captainmission (Mar 22, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> On evictions - the solicitor who works for leeds hands off our homes is well versed in housing law. He is saying that no judge will grant an eviction order under the bedroom tax - having worked in housing and seen judges refuse evictions before in far weaker cases, I think he is right.


 
I think this is being overly optimistic. Whilst i'd agree judges, on the whole, don't like to evict people. There's come a point where they have no, or limited discretion to do otherwise. When judges have refused evictions in the past you have to consider on what grounds they've done this. It's not because they're nice, it's because where there's been a breach of tenancy (ie rent arrears) they reach a commitment to rectify that (ie pay you full rent and token amount of the arrears). Under the bedroom tax paying the full rent is no longer going be a possibility for a lot of people. The bedroom tax has an immediate affect on those with arrears and suspended possession orders.



Kaka Tim said:


> If you are falling into arrears due to the bedroom it cant be argued that you have willfully failed to pay the rent - it is a de facto case of you not having the means to do so. This also means if you _are_ evicted, the local authority have a statutory duty to house you as have not made yourself 'intentionally homeless' (i.e. by spunking the rent down the bookies) - which will mean very expensive emergency accommodation.


 
Only certain people are going to own a duty to be housed. Many people affected by the bedroom tax won't be in 'priority need' and will simple be given housing 'assistance' - basically a list of hostels or private landlords. Even those owned a duty can now be discharged into 12 month private sector tenancy.



Kaka Tim said:


> SHOs will huff and puff and threaten, but if tenants sit tight, they will not be evicted.


 
I think there's a real danger in mixing up political rhetoric and the legal and practical realities of the bedroom tax. Many housing associations will take the hit themselves in some case, many won't and there will be evictions. Making statements like sit tight, and you won't be evicted is irresponsible. If people are seriously planning to campaign against the bedroom tax, none payment campaigns, eviction resistance then they need to be clued up about the consequences.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2013)

captainmission said:


> I think there's a real danger in mixing up political rhetoric and the legal and practical realities of the bedroom tax. Many housing associations will take the hit themselves in some case, many won't and there will be evictions. Making statements like sit tight, and you won't be evicted is irresponsible. If people are seriously planning to campaign against the bedroom tax, none payment campaigns, eviction resistance then they need to be clued up about the consequences.


 
I totally agree that a non-payment campaign need to be co-ordinated with people being supported and given advice on what to do. Nobodies being advised that 'you wont be evicted' - its more pointing out that large scale evictions will cause SHOs huge problems. They _may_ pursue a few evictions in order to make an example - but thousands of evictions? For £500  annual arrears? They can't afford to - it would bankrupt them. This is why several SHOs have already said that they wont be evicting people for the bedroom tax - others are hoping that threatening letters will be enough - but we need to call their bluff. 

But most people don't really have any choice other than to stay in their homes - so large numbers of people will be struggling with arrears anyway. The fact that no help is being given with the costs of moving - (removal van hire, deposits etc) will be a further incentive for people to stay where they are.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> But most people don't really have any choice other than to stay in their homes - so large numbers of people will be struggling with arrears anyway. The fact that no help is being given with the costs of moving - (removal van hire, deposits etc) will be a further incentive for people to stay where they are.


 
Well some are, but it varies widely between different councils and HAs


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## treelover (Mar 22, 2013)

http://www.bristol247.com/2013/03/22/we-must-keep-up-the-pressure-to-axe-the-bedroom-tax-76621/


Read this, the opportunism by the LP PPC is appalling, worst highjacking than the SWP'S MO:


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## beeboo (Mar 22, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> If you are falling into arrears due to the bedroom it cant be argued that you have willfully failed to pay the rent - it is a de facto case of you not having the means to do so.


 
But equally, unless there's a prospect of your circumstances changing in the foreseeable future, you will *continue* to not have the means to pay. In which case the judge might come to the view that there is no point suspending possession on the usual basis of agreement to pay rent + £x to pay off arrears, as there is no prospect of that being paid.

I think it will come down to circumstances - if for example you've got a child coming up to the age of 10, or are trying to get a job, or are nearly at pension age I'd think the judge is likely to suspend. Or if you've mostly been able to pay it but have struggled temporarily. But if you've consistently struggled to pay, the judge may decide it is in no-one's interests to keep you in a home you can't afford.

Frankly it could go either way but I don't think it's helpful to give people false reassurances they're going to be OK - ultimately no-one knows yet. This is uncharted territory.  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst?


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## beeboo (Mar 22, 2013)

captainmission said:


> I think this is being overly optimistic. Whilst i'd agree judges, on the whole, don't like to evict people. There's come a point where they have no, or limited discretion to do otherwise. When judges have refused evictions in the past you have to consider on what grounds they've done this. It's not because they're nice, it's because where there's been a breach of tenancy (ie rent arrears) they reach a commitment to rectify that (ie pay you full rent and token amount of the arrears). Under the bedroom tax paying the full rent is no longer going be a possibility for a lot of people. The bedroom tax has an immediate affect on those with arrears and suspended possession orders.


 
I wrote my last post hours before I pressed send and hadn't seen this.  But yeah, exactly this.  100%.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Westminster want same-sex children to share bedroom until they're 22!

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...e-21-year-olds-to-share-rooms/6526273.article


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## ymu (Mar 24, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> I don't know whether anyone else has said this but the whole point is to get as many people as possible out of council flats and into private accommodation (having bloody well calculated in the extra money they will be spending on putting up people in B&B(collateral damage to them)) with the aim of getting rid of council flats/accommodation altogehter, isn't it?


I think so, yeah.

This is a sort of de-residualisation of social housing, in that it will only affect those who are on low incomes or who are unemployed, who will be forced to give up their social tenancies shortly or in the future when their turn on the unemployment/shit job merry-go-round comes along.

It will mean fewer people leaving care will get social housing because anything bigger than a one-bed flat (of which there are not enough) puts them at immediate risk of eviction should they need to claim housing benefit at any point. It will mean older people whose children have left home being at high risk of losing their tenancy before retirement.

That leaves social housing with a higher proportion of securely-incomed people, and people for whom the worst has not yet happened. People who are more likely to exercise their right to buy, and people who may feel they have little choice if they know that staying as social tenants could fuck them over completely should the worst happen to them.

It's fucking sick.


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## treelover (Mar 24, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Westminster want same-sex children to share bedroom until they're 22!
> 
> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...e-21-year-olds-to-share-rooms/6526273.article


 
hope that has gone on FB sites, people will be incandescent, no one, not least the party of 'morality' can support that...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> hope that has gone on FB sites, people will be incandescent, no one, not least the party of 'morality' can support that...


 
No idea. I came across it on Twitter


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## treelover (Mar 24, 2013)

53 protests on the 30th now, some will be very very small though..


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## junglevip (Mar 24, 2013)

On radio 5 now. A chap has a kidney dialysis machine in his spare room and now has to pay the bedroom tax; it comes into effect they cut the top rate of tax for millionaires.


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## where to (Mar 24, 2013)

treelover said:
			
		

> 53 protests on the 30th now, some will be very very small though..



53 seeds. 53 trees.


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## ymu (Mar 25, 2013)

Who wants to evict a millionaire?



> Amidst growing pressure on the government over the bedroom tax, UK Uncut, the anti cuts direct action network, has today announced that it plans to ‘ramp up the resistance’ to the benefits cap and the bedroom tax by undertaking civil disobedience across the country next month.
> 
> UK Uncut would not be drawn on the exact nature of their plans dubbed ‘Who wants to evict a millionaire?’.
> 
> ...


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Westminster want same-sex children to share bedroom until they're 22!
> 
> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...e-21-year-olds-to-share-rooms/6526273.article


Comment #1 'well if it was good enough for my mum and her sisters'...


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## _angel_ (Mar 25, 2013)

ymu said:


> I think so, yeah.
> 
> This is a sort of de-residualisation of social housing, in that it will only affect those who are on low incomes or who are unemployed, who will be forced to give up their social tenancies shortly or in the future when their turn on the unemployment/shit job merry-go-round comes along.
> 
> ...


Yes I think this is the point to totally rid the country of council housing (surely there will still be -far more expensive- HAs tho).
If you've got a securish income are you really  going to wait around to be the next victim of this/the last/the next government's vindictive hate campaign against you. Are you going to wait  to get you and your family slung out on your arse or are you going to buy the house and to hell with them trying to run your life?

The govt don't then mind paying higher HB to private landlords and temporary accommodation as it's a price worth paying. This policy was NEVER about saving money from the benefits bill or getting families housed.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Comment #1 'well if it was good enough for my mum and her sisters'...


 
There's always fucking idiots like that.  Does it not occur to person commenting that his mum and sisters probably had no choice and would probably all have rather had their own rooms 

as for couples, it's NOT a luxury having a spare room

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8245578.stm



> *Tossing and turning*
> He said poor sleep was linked to depression, heart disease, strokes, lung disorders, traffic and industrial accidents, and divorce, yet sleep was largely ignored as an important aspect of health.
> 
> Dr Robert Meadows, a sociologist at the University of Surrey, said: "People actually feel that they sleep better when they are with a partner but the evidence suggests otherwise."
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

I was chatting to my bro about this recently (him working in the sector) and he said in some areas (parts of Scotland nearby me, for example) the area is actually classed as depopulating year-on-year so they don't need to build as many social housing properties. This, however, would not apply to most parts of London.

On the subject of couples sharing rooms, my grandparents stopped sharing a room once my dad moved out as my grandad sung in his sleep and my grandmother could then have her own room!


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's always fucking idiots like that. Does it not occur to person commenting that his mum and sisters probably had no choice and would probably all have rather had their own rooms
> 
> as for couples, it's NOT a luxury having a spare room
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8245578.stm


Note there was no mention of whether or not his children share rooms, if he has any.


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## _angel_ (Mar 25, 2013)

The idiot that slagged off 22 yr olds for still living at home was class. This is - you remember- tory policy to get adult children to remain at home instead of "being a burden on the state" then slagging them off for "being a burden on their parents". I mean news flash, it's not 60s or 70s or something when you could leave school without a qualification and reasonably be expected to find a job/ leave home relatively easily.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Note there was no mention of whether or not his children share rooms, if he has any.


 
Course not 

Twat


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> The idiot that slagged off 22 yr olds for still living at home was class. This is - you remember- tory policy to get adult children to remain at home instead of "being a burden on the state" then slagging them off for "being a burden on their parents". I mean news flash, it's not 60s or 70s or something when you could leave school without a qualification and reasonably be expected to find a job/ leave home relatively easily.


 
Yeah, when people can't get on the housing ladder because of the price of houses, and they can't get their rent paid because of greedy landlords and the DWP's rules on Housing Benefit....


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 25, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> <snip>The govt don't then mind paying higher HB to private landlords and temporary accommodation as it's a price worth paying. This policy was NEVER about saving money from the benefits bill or getting families housed.


 
That's it _exactly._


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## audiotech (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, I telephoned the London office of my MP (tory) today to see where the response was to the email I sent over a week ago now. It will be in tonight's post. Spoke to someone with a plum voice who "understood" when I pointed out that I had been given a "false choice", which in reality is no choice, money wouldn't be saved if I moved to a one bed-roomed property in the private rented sector and a lot of people will be very upset and angry.

Meanwhile, Cameron moves further to the right, with more benefit and immigrant bashing, as UKIP takes the spoils.


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## nogojones (Mar 26, 2013)

Details of the Cardiff action on the 30th:

30th March. 1PM Outside City Hall

http://www.facebook.com/events/490319937670937/

Please share the event page, invite people etc. Please share the attached leaflet around neighbours, friends, colleagues, put in their windows, sellotape to bus stops, staple to trees or whatever way of advertising you can devise!!!
There will also be teams organised to canvass, poster, leaflet different neighbourhoods.
If your community group, network etc want to add their name to the supporters of the demo get in touch!


----------



## nogojones (Mar 26, 2013)

treelover said:


> UkiP and EDL supporters seem to be increasing their presence on BT social media sites...


 

Yea, we fucked some nazi off from the Cardiff page


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

nogojones said:


> Yea, we fucked some nazi off from the Cardiff page


 
Really hope they're not going to try and hijack loads of the protests and cause shit


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 26, 2013)

*Liverpool Combat The Bedroom Tax - Sat 30th March - 1pm St George's Hall Plateux*

Community resistance, without politicians, is the only way to combat the bedroom tax. People will be assembling from North Liverpool & Stand Up in Bootle at Great Homer St Market meeting at 11:45am. People from South Liverpool bedroom tax groups will be meeting at Victoria Monument, Derby Square (outside Crown Courts) Liverpool at 12noon.

There will also be groups coming from outside Liverpool and from the Wirral. But these are the main two marching points. If you can't do the march, then see you at the front of St George's Hall at 1pm


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

Blimey.   Nottingham council reclassifying tower block accommodation and *very small rooms *(highlighted as may be smaller than normal boxroom size)



> *Changes to Nottingham tower block flat rules*
> 
> *High-rise flats in Nottingham will be classified as one-bedroom, even those with two bedrooms, in preparation for changes to housing benefit.*
> 
> ...


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21931443

Shame they can't do it with all their properties, but I guess they own the block and so it's therefore not going to impact on private property prices?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Blimey. Nottingham council reclassifying tower block accommodation and *very small rooms *(highlighted as may be smaller than normal boxroom size)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
A step in the right direction anyway.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> A step in the right direction anyway.


 
Altogether better policy than holding off on taking court action for a year, as long as they don't decide to reclassify them at a later stage, which could be a possibility if the council changes hands maybe?


----------



## thedockerslad (Mar 26, 2013)

Well known Labour Party politician Frank Field is urging landlords to brick up doors and knock down walls - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21946590


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Well known Labour Party politician Frank Field is urging landlords to brick up doors and knock down walls - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21946590


 
er, what would be the point exactly?


----------



## everything2go (Mar 27, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/events/543434062367425/

Oxford action on the 30th, please join and share. We shall be making posters and leaflets tomorrow and I shall share them on here for anyone to print off who lives in Oxfordshire. Thanks.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 27, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Well known Labour Party politician Frank Field is urging landlords to brick up doors and knock down walls - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21946590



Wtf? If Frank field is on our side it makes me question if I'm right, lol.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 27, 2013)

This looks good:

Bedroom Tax – How to get rid of it quickly and simply
Uncategorized March 14, 2013 Comments: 34 

Dear Bedroom Tax Affected Tenant.

This is a fully updated post on 16 March 2013 at 8pm and combines two previous articles that together say how you can get rid of the bedroom tax for good and very quickly. Yes its long but it is worth reading and will only take 5 minutes. It says why you should challenge the bedroom tax with a simple letter and gives a draft of that letter after having described what carnage and chaos a simple one-page letter from every bedroom tax affected tenant will create. It will cost you a stamp or you can simply hand it in to your nearest council one-stop shop.  
http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/03/...how-all-tenants-should-appeal-and-the-impact/

Any thoughts?


----------



## spawnofsatan (Mar 27, 2013)

Nottingham City council do the right thing shocker!

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/B...tory-18531985-detail/story.html#axzz2OGjISRxQ


----------



## ymu (Mar 27, 2013)

ska invita said:


> This looks good:
> 
> Bedroom Tax – How to get rid of it quickly and simply
> Uncategorized March 14, 2013 Comments: 34
> ...


 
I think it would be a really useful thing for local community-based activists to be working on and that blog article is a useful resource. It'll achieve fuck all on its own, of course, because it won't reach most people affected.

I'm not sure about speye. Some useful info on there, but overly obsessed with detail, which tends to drown out the message. They need to appendicise more of the geeky waffle. More seriously, they've got stuff up there claiming that social housing is subsidised. I've sent them evidence that this is not the case and asked for a correction multiple times, but it's been ignored (and they have engaged before on another issue, so I don't think this is just because they're administratively slack).


----------



## beeboo (Mar 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Blimey. Nottingham council reclassifying tower block accommodation and *very small rooms *(highlighted as may be smaller than normal boxroom size)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The reason for reclassifying tower blocks and not other homes is because it'll be all but impossible for them to let out 2 bed properties in high rise to people who aren't going to be 'underoccupying'.  Families will largely not be interested, and even if they were a tower block crammed with kids creates problems of its own. 

I think this is similar logic to Knowsley Housing Trust's reclassification - if you've got homes you always let as if they were 1 beds, it might be easier to actually classify them as 1 beds rather than struggle to let them to people who need a 2 bed home.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2013)

beeboo said:


> The reason for reclassifying tower blocks and not other homes is because it'll be all but impossible for them to let out 2 bed properties in high rise to people who aren't going to be 'underoccupying'. Families will largely not be interested, and even if they were a tower block crammed with kids creates problems of its own.


 
Yes, I realise that as well.  With tower blocks as well, disabled and elderly are unlikely to want them in case lift breaks down


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 27, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Wtf? If Frank field is on our side it makes me question if I'm right, lol.


 
Yeah, he was on about "Thinking the unthinkable" (ie kicking people off benefit) on welfare years ago when the Blair government was still in the ascendant.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2013)

News

*



			The Government fails in its attempt to prevent legal action against its controversial Bedroom Tax
		
Click to expand...

*


> 27 March 2013
> 
> The Government has failed in its attempt to prevent legal action against its controversial Bedroom Tax, after a judicial review of the decision was granted permission to proceed in the High Court, lawyers Leigh Day have announced.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 27, 2013)

beeboo said:


> The reason for reclassifying tower blocks and not other homes is because it'll be all but impossible for them to let out 2 bed properties in high rise to people who aren't going to be 'underoccupying'. Families will largely not be interested, and even if they were a tower block crammed with kids creates problems of its own.
> 
> I think this is similar logic to Knowsley Housing Trust's reclassification - if you've got homes you always let as if they were 1 beds, it might be easier to actually classify them as 1 beds rather than struggle to let them to people who need a 2 bed home.


 
As a tower block fan, it is a worry to me that the bedroom tax could well spell the end of council tower blocks which would be a shame coz if they're well managed they can be pretty nice places to live. As you say, 2 berth properties will become difficult to let & most blocks have more 2 bedders in them than one beds, so it's quite possible that entire blocks could become unviable and end up being emptied out and either sold off or demolished.


----------



## treelover (Mar 27, 2013)

can I just say it has been great to see so many disabled people, who are most certainly in danger of losing their benefits if they adopt high profile activities like this, take on these issues...


----------



## beeboo (Mar 27, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> As a tower block fan, it is a worry to me that the bedroom tax could well spell the end of council tower blocks which would be a shame coz if they're well managed they can be pretty nice places to live. As you say, 2 berth properties will become difficult to let & most blocks have more 2 bedders in them than one beds, so it's quite possible that entire blocks could become unviable and end up being emptied out and either sold off or demolished.


 
Yet another stupidity of the whole idea.

The fact is that many areas don't have a nice even mix of 1/2/3/4 bed homes - you get blocks of 2 bed flats, estates full of 3 bed houses etc. We know there's not enough 1 bed homes to go round.

I've heard of some smaller housing associations where over half their tenants are going to be affected and there's nothing they can do because practically all the homes they own are the same size.


----------



## beeboo (Mar 27, 2013)

ymu said:


> I'm not sure about speye. Some useful info on there, but overly obsessed with detail, which tends to drown out the message. They need to appendicise more of the geeky waffle. More seriously, they've got stuff up there claiming that social housing is subsidised. I've sent them evidence that this is not the case and asked for a correction multiple times, but it's been ignored (and they have engaged before on another issue, so I don't think this is just because they're administratively slack).


 
It's just one guy's blog.  He nails some issues but you do need a bit of a critical filter.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 27, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Any thoughts?


 
Well, I've done a quick cut 'n' paste of the standard letter on there, requesting information from the local authority on the decision made with regards to my property and "under occupancy", edited it and it will be in the post tomorrow. I suggest those affected do the same. Anything to clog the system is worthy IMO.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 27, 2013)

They've also done the dirty here with regards to central heating being recently installed. I was told when I agreed to this that a small weekly charge would be covered by housing benefit and it was. Now, that's all change, so on top of the "under occupancy" baloney, I've to find another £3.15 a week as well as. I'll be on the streets begging at this rate.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2013)




----------



## weepiper (Mar 27, 2013)

those of you that don't know it, this is the original, written about slum clearances in the 60s


----------



## audiotech (Mar 28, 2013)

The "RATBAG" himself.


----------



## where to (Mar 28, 2013)

weepiper said:


>




the first non-cringey protest song in my lifetime i think.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 28, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Any thoughts?


 
I made a post here about it's a bad idea that does more harm than good.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

http://www.housing.org.uk/media/david_orrs_blog/the_bedroom_tax_some_home_tru.aspx


----------



## ddraig (Mar 28, 2013)

oh jesus! 
daily mail claim Ealing council suggest fostering to get around bedroom tax!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lies-foster-children-dodge-benefits-cuts.html


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

Zoomable map and how much tenants will pay to their councils

Putney, Tooting and Battersea

Bedroom tax for 2 spare bedrooms - £1,629 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/mar/28/bedroom-tax-map


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

ddraig said:


> oh jesus!
> daily mail claim Ealing council suggest fostering to get around bedroom tax!
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lies-foster-children-dodge-benefits-cuts.html


 
Oh FFS.  That's exactly what some twats would say would happen, or that council tenants would start having more babies


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

and anyway, that won't work because they've already said that you have to had fostered before, or signed up in the last 12 months to foster

eta:  Sorry, become an *approved *foster carer in the last 12 months


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

and furthermore, exactly how fast do Ealing approve their foster carers?  I'd imagine getting Criminal Records checks and everything else that goes into checking, is not remotely possible between now and start date of BT


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

So far, just 1% (1,936 households) have downsized



> Just 1 per cent of households affected by the government’s ‘bedroom tax’ have moved home to avoid the controversial under-occupancy charge, which comes into effect on Monday.
> An exclusive Inside Housing survey of 73 social landlords across Great Britain reveals of 161,029 households affected, just 1,936 have moved to avoid the penalty so far, meaning 99 per cent will be hit from 1 April.
> Under the policy, social housing tenants of working age will have their benefit cut if they are deemed to have spare bedrooms.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...room-tax/6526324.article#.UVQTp5Kulek.twitter


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

Breadline Britain on ITV now


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

Channel 4 News also talking about BT now


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 28, 2013)

Sorry, I've not had the chance to read the whole thread, but does anyone know anything about the 'Abolish Bedroom Tax or prepare for peoples revolution 2013' facebook page? It looks like one of the busiest bedroom tax pages.

I'm a bit concerned - someone who's involved in the campaign I'm involved in goes on there so I see their stuff on my wall when he comments. They've just put the following status up there:



> Tory capitalism has made it this way.. but the people unite and fascism will take it away!


 
I really, really hope it's just badly worded - anyone know anything about who's set it up etc? From what I can gather the far right are desperate to exploit the bedroom tax, or at least they are round here, so I hope they're not running it and trying to use it to get their poison across.

It's perfectly possible that I'm just being paranoid though - anyone know the page? Has there been dodgy stuff on there before?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 28, 2013)

Sounds very much like a Marilyn Manson lyric to me (2:02 in, to spare yourself having to listen to it....)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 28, 2013)

That says old fashioned fascism will take it away though - I just can't get my head around why 1) they'd choose to post that and 2) why they'd change it from old fashioned fascism will take it away to the people unite and fascism will take it away?

Maybe I'm being over-sensitive but it seems well dodgy to me


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 28, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> That says old fashioned fascism will take it away though - I just can't get my head around why 1) they'd choose to post that and 2) why they'd change it from old fashioned fascism will take it away to the people unite and fascism will take it away?
> 
> Maybe I'm being over-sensitive but it seems well dodgy to me


 
Get it screenshotted then ask some questions. Probably nowt but worth keeping a record of it.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 28, 2013)

Anti IDS protest pics from Edinburgh
http://www.flickr.com/photos/badalbert/8596790327/in/set-72157633106666569


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sorry, I've not had the chance to read the whole thread, but does anyone know anything about the 'Abolish Bedroom Tax or prepare for peoples revolution 2013' facebook page? It looks like one of the busiest bedroom tax pages.
> 
> I'm a bit concerned - someone who's involved in the campaign I'm involved in goes on there so I see their stuff on my wall when he comments. They've just put the following status up there:
> 
> ...


 
Dunno, but they probably want people to stay put in case they get Bulgarians/Romanians instead


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 28, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Get it screenshotted then ask some questions. Probably nowt but worth keeping a record of it.


----------



## treelover (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm not someone who sees the nazis, fascism, etc round the corner(not aimed at Spiney), but the anger in many communities is so visceral, often inchoate,and people becoming so desperate that there is a danger an new even more right wing populism, etc than UKIP could grow and eventually a new form of far right politics, I don't think history repeats itself though.


----------



## treelover (Mar 28, 2013)

Anyway, i am wondering about these thousands of people all over FB, etc who are declaring themselvesleves Socialists, where have they all been? It's a bit like all the people who claimed they saw the Beatles in the Cavern, when it was imposssible the tiny venue could have contained them all, even over the years!


btw, Labour Left really are going all out to co-opt the BT protests, just look at all the LP MP's who are speaking...

update, ooops missed out 'socialist' makes no sense otherwise...


----------



## treelover (Mar 28, 2013)

I think there may be something wrong with Dr Clarke..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 29, 2013)

treelover said:


> btw, Labour Left really are going all out to co-opt the BT protests, just look at all the LP MP's who are speaking...


 
Don't people realise they support the BT (albeit supposedly as long as someone has a smaller property to move into)?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 29, 2013)

treelover said:


> Anyway, i am wondering about these thousands of people all over FB, etc who are declaring themselvesleves, where have they all been? It's a bit like all the people who claimed they saw the Beatles in the Cavern, when it was imposssible the tiny venue could have contained them all, even over the years!
> 
> 
> btw, Labour Left really are going all out to co-opt the BT protests, just look at all the LP MP's who are speaking...


 
They're not doing a very good job of it though - calling set piece demos and making speeches won't allow them to control it - if they wanted to do that they'd have to get down on the estates where the real stuff is going on - and they've not been anywhere near so far if Sheffield is anything to go by.


----------



## nicedream (Mar 29, 2013)

OK, there is a song i found about this issue, and tbh, its shit.  However, at the end it has a lost of demos which are going on this weekend.  I will post it.

Okay, found lol;


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2013)

This is from a fb page called 'Anti Bedroom Tax Protest In Scotland'



> There has been rumours that the SNP have been banned from speaking on Saturdays' demo.
> 
> This is correct. There will be NO politicians speaking on Saturday.
> 
> ...


 
which I thought was interesting. The SNP are definitely using this for some political grandstanding (they've said no SNP-controlled council will evict for bedroom tax arrears... if you care so much about the people who will be affected by it then just pass legislation making it illegal to evict for bedroom tax arrears for everyone in Scotland)


----------



## treelover (Mar 29, 2013)

"This is a PEOPLE'S PROTEST. It is YOUR Protest."

Good stuff...


----------



## treelover (Mar 29, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> They're not doing a very good job of it though - calling set piece demos and making speeches won't allow them to control it - if they wanted to do that they'd have to get down on the estates where the real stuff is going on - and they've not been anywhere near so far if Sheffield is anything to go by.


 
" Born in Wembley,[6] Berger was educated at Haberdashers' Aske's School for Girls, a private school in Elstree, Hertfordshire,[7] followed by the University of Birmingham, where she obtained a degree in Commerce and Spanish and spent a year studying in ICADE in Madrid,[8] and Birkbeck College at the University of London,[9] where she took a part-time Masters degree in Government, Politics and Policy.[7]
*[edit] Student politics*

Berger was a National Executive Committee member of the National Union of Students. She co-convened the NUS Anti-Racism / Anti-Fascism Campaign. In April 2005, she resigned from the Executive Committee, accusing other NEC members of anti-Semitism."


They have lost the ability to do that sort of campaigning, for instance, can you imagine someone like Luciana Berger tramping around Liverpool's council estates in the rain...

Great niece of Manny Shinwell as well...


----------



## treelover (Mar 29, 2013)

In January 2013 Liverpool Magistrates' Court heard that Berger had been upset by comments from Liverpool music promoter Phil Hayes in an incident in November 2012 in which Hayes said he hated Jewish people. The BBC reported that Hayes "referred to the prime minister of Israel as 'your prime minister', to which [Berger] said, 'David Cameron is my prime minister'." Hayes pleaded guilty to a racially-aggravated public order offence and was fined £120.[44]


O/T but anyone from Liverpool knows Phil Hayes, he runs the Picket and has done for 25 years, bit of a shock there...


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21981163


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

...and this is Edinburgh


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

BBC Scotland (wonder if BBC UK will ignore it al day lke last time)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...63#?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

I think most will be quite small, lots of people affected are disabled and too ill or too scared(appalling) to go, while publicity seems to be limited on FB...


Mirror is promoting them though, Polly mentioned them in  the Guardian..


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

Edinburgh again


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

Glasgow


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

Wow!

How can the BBC ignore them, if they do, its the new Pravda...

remember Purnell is now a head honcho there...

btw, it looks like other benefit issues are creeping in, good.


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

tbh, its a bit frightening that these are going on around England and to the media it's as if nothing is happening, still more people on FB will be aware of the contrast...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> Wow!
> 
> How can the BBC ignore them, if they do, its the new Pravda...
> 
> ...


 

They did with the last lot.  Only put something up on the website much later in the afternoon


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Glasgow


 
Good turnout


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

The worry is if they are small in England, as I suspect they will be, people will get dispirited and then the scapegoating may begin...

The BBC rarely report on benefit protests, doesn't fit their agenda


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

they need to extend these protests to all benefit cuts now...


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 30, 2013)

In Cardiff they all sat in the road, about 20-30 of them, i have to drive another way to get where i needed to be which involved me using a taxi only route and breaking the law. I hope it works as it made me about 10 minutes late.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 30, 2013)

Apparently, appalling behaviour from the SWP at the Glasgow demo.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently, appalling behaviour from the SWP at the Glasgow demo.


 
I read on Twitter about some women getting hassle


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 30, 2013)

Fedayn posting on SWP thread about it.


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> O/T but anyone from Liverpool knows Phil Hayes, he runs the Picket and has done for 25 years, bit of a shock there...


 
Phil is a top bloke and very far from being a racist.


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 30, 2013)

Great turn out in Liverpool this afternoon - two feeder marches converged outside St. George's Hall to hear delegates from resident and community groups speak. More images to follow ...


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 30, 2013)

More photos from Liverpool bedroom tax protest on Demotix via jump


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

Edinburgh






Glasgow






Downing St


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

Wow again..

what are the green flags?.


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 30, 2013)

looks like Anonymous ones


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

Manchester


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

Write-up in the Daily mail with lots of pictures here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...testers-join-demonstrations-cut-benefits.html


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

Good, is the BBC covering it yet?

btw, shouldn't say this but if that is Tommy in the front of the march, he is looking very old..


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> Good, is the BBC covering it yet?


 
In a minimal manner

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21981163


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

Wonder why the Mail ism covering it,

I can see a non payment of licence fee emerging, especially amongst disabled people

btw, remember plenty of people on the demos will be disabled/sick, etc they have been very brave to stick their heads above the parapet..


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> Good, is the BBC covering it yet?
> 
> btw, shouldn't say this but if that is Tommy in the front of the march, he is looking very old..


 
He's had a hard paper round


----------



## where to (Mar 30, 2013)

Good protest in Edinburgh, i would say about 1500 strong maybe?

Willie Black of "ratbag" fame was compering, he was pretty funny and did a good job. he addressed the nationalist/ anti english comment he directed at IDS at one point with a humoured semi-apology. not that anyone was asking for one, but it sounded like one or two folk had raised it with him.

There were no parties represented directly in the speaches. A guy from the Black Triangle Campaign gave a disability orientated speach which was very good and informative, but did lose the way a bit refering toTories as Nazis and calling their actions a holocaust. But he's in the front line on this stuff so we can forgive a wee bit of hyperbole. The organiser of the protest spoke very briefly but was too shy and stopped short - the fact that she was speaking was good enough for me and a good sign going forward.

then there was a Scottish nationalist from the north of England (!) who gave a pretty familiar tooth fairy "everything will be okay after independence" speech. (because Scottish people are instinctively left wing and aren't just subject to specific economic conditions and dynamics). she was there representing the Radical Independence Convention (recent big tent gathering of left wing independence supporters). as someone who will vote Yes in the referendum i can criticise this for what it was: a load of shite. quite how those who were new to protests such as this - and may (horror) be pro union - were supposed to feel about this i am not sure.

one young lad from anonymous gave a bizarre poem/ rap rant thing which was pretty cringeworthy, but we were all young once and at least he was wearing a mask so noone will remember him for it.

As usual the tired cliches and lefty self stereotypes were evident: the trident banners, choir group singing bella ciao, and Lenin lookalike were probably my highlights.


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-03-30/bedroom-tax-protests-nationwide/


ITV main news just reported it, mentioned on FB..


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

"A guy from the Black Triangle Campaign gave a disability orientated speach which was very good and informative, but did lose the way a bit refering toTories as Nazis and calling their actions a holocaust. But he's in the front line on this stuff so we can forgive a wee bit of hyperbole."

That's where the black triangle comes from, they do great work, donated to them...


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

FB reporting some of the little towns, eg Bletchely had ok turn outs...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 30, 2013)

25 max in Brighton. Probably to do with council saying they won't evict - yet.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 25 max in Brighton. Probably to do with council saying they won't evict - yet.


 

That's what I thought, 'cos had a look last night and Facebook said 16 attending


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> Wonder why the Mail ism covering it,
> 
> I can see a non payment of licence fee emerging, especially amongst disabled people
> 
> btw, remember plenty of people on the demos will be disabled/sick, etc they have been very brave to stick their heads above the parapet..


 
I think I read about live protests not being covered to avoid publicity and therefore riots


----------



## where to (Mar 30, 2013)

Glasgow turnout figures seem to range from 3000 (Daily Mail) to 10,000 (seems unlikely).

Edinburgh figures range from 1200 (Police estimate apparently) 1500 (my estimate) to 3000 (slightly unrealistic, imo, guy on the facebook page).

oh the other thing that happened in Edinburgh was after the speeches the demo broke off into around 5 groups representing different areas of the city. groups then discussed future meetings in their areas etc.

in Glasgow there was a 200 strong meeting held afterwards, apparently.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently, appalling behaviour from the SWP at the Glasgow demo.


 


Guessing this is it (not watched it myself)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21983807#TWEET696064


----------



## where to (Mar 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Guessing this is it (not watched it myself)




it is.  this is being discussed further in the SWP expulsions and squabbles thread. probably the best place for it.


----------



## where to (Mar 30, 2013)

one other note from the Edinburgh protest - there were people there with "ratbag" t shirts , with images imprinted showing WB harranging IDS.  thought that was class.

one down note was the absence of any good new songs. the totally incongruous "one solution: revolution" was the song for the day it seemed.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 30, 2013)

About 60 people (incl us) turned up at the Swansea demo. Very badly publicised unfortunately...


----------



## where to (Mar 30, 2013)

way bigger than expected, sorry.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 30, 2013)




----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 30, 2013)

Those pix from Glasgow weepiper? We head there was a truly excellent turnout there


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 30, 2013)

Love it!


----------



## nogojones (Mar 30, 2013)

About 300 in Cardiff, which ain't bad as we only got the flyers sorted at the start of the week


----------



## where to (Mar 30, 2013)

that Dr Eoin guy seems to be saying there is going to be another round on protests on Saturday 20th April.  i'm all for grabbing a date and running with it to get cohesion but not sure he is in a position to do this given they (labour left) have not put many feet on the ground so far .


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 30, 2013)

nogojones said:


> About 300 in Cardiff, which ain't bad as we only got the flyers sorted at the start of the week


 
saw only about 30-40 stopping me at the lights..... was mega late then lol


----------



## nogojones (Mar 30, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> saw only about 30-40 stopping me at the lights..... was mega late then lol


 
yea, the demo split with most carrying on marching and a section of lazy's having a sit down


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

weepiper said:


>


 

not being too serious but the guy holding the "cant pay won't pay" placard has seriously expensive trainers on...

love the Cameron sausage one.


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

where to said:


> that Dr Eoin guy seems to be saying there is going to be another round on protests on Saturday 20th April. i'm all for grabbing a date and running with it to get cohesion but not sure he is in a position to do this given they (labour left) have not put many feet on the ground so far .


 
I would say it now needs a national anti-welfare cuts protest, which ultimately at present only WILOTL can put on...


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2013)

Operation 'Get shirty' at No 10...

guy in the pic, SWP, gets everywhere!

not sure why but someone has put up a nice blue shirt, without anything on it..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


>


----------



## weepiper (Mar 31, 2013)

Video of the Glasgow march


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

treelover said:


> not being too serious but the guy holding the "cant pay won't pay" placard has seriously expensive trainers on...


 
Maybe he just got them as a Christmas or birthday present?


----------



## weepiper (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe he just got them as a Christmas or birthday present?


 
Or bought them when he was working then lost his job.


----------



## tony.c (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe he just got them as a Christmas or birthday present?


Or they fell off the back of a lorry.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Or bought them when he was working then lost his job.


 
or he works but is low-paid and saved for them for months


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Or they fell off the back of a lorry.


 
Now now, don't judge everyone by your standards


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2013)

I know, I know....


----------



## where to (Mar 31, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/events/504406632953579/?ref=22


----------



## where to (Mar 31, 2013)

Video from Edinburgh:


----------



## ddraig (Mar 31, 2013)

Cardiff bbc report
with short video
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-21980599


----------



## weepiper (Mar 31, 2013)

Video from Glasgow with lots of interviews with those affected


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> or he works but is low-paid and saved for them for months


 
Or he's paying them off through a catalogue, it's how a LOT of people live


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Or he's paying them off through a catalogue, it's how a LOT of people live


 
At 33% interest at least!


----------



## weepiper (Mar 31, 2013)




----------



## where to (Mar 31, 2013)

The Willie Black speech, in full


worth restating that he addressed the slightly anti-English tone of this at yesterday with a bit of regret on precise wording.  overall, its a pretty good rant.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 31, 2013)

Sprocket. said:


> At 33% interest at least!


 
You do get interest free catalogues. I used to use them when the kids were younger.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> You do get interest free catalogues. I used to use them when the kids were younger.


Yes I have seen them and some do offer limited interest free credit.
But the sharks that are now circling our poor, entice folk into have today, pay forever schemes that overwhelm and cause the distress and anxiety that those in control of credit want. It is all a big scam and it started when employers entered into the BACS schemes so honest workers had to go like Oliver Twist to the local bank to get at their hard earned wages. Get control of workers spending,get workers into debt, get workers to buy their council/housing association homes. Control is what they needed and it's what they got. Workers will not strike or risk imprisonment if their family home or freedom is at risk.


----------



## where to (Mar 31, 2013)




----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 1, 2013)

Sprocket. said:


> Yes I have seen them and some do offer limited interest free credit.
> But the sharks that are now circling our poor, entice folk into have today, pay forever schemes that overwhelm and cause the distress and anxiety that those in control of credit want. It is all a big scam and it started when employers entered into the BACS schemes so honest workers had to go like Oliver Twist to the local bank to get at their hard earned wages. Get control of workers spending,get workers into debt, get workers to buy their council/housing association homes. Control is what they needed and it's what they got. Workers will not strike or risk imprisonment if their family home or freedom is at risk.


 
Yeah, my dad used to always go on about this foreman he worked under at british aerospace who wouldn't employ anyone who wasn't married and didn't have a mortgage.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yeah, my dad used to always go on about this foreman he worked under at british aerospace who wouldn't employ anyone who wasn't married and didn't have a mortgage.


 
Wasn't at Weybridge was it? I used to work with a bloke who told me a similar tale about his British Aerospace foreman.
Could well have been company policy. I wouldn't be suprised.
Where I work now I know one guy wasn't going to get an interview because he lived in rented accommodation. Until we found out and went nuts!


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 1, 2013)

Sprocket. said:


> Wasn't at Weybridge was it? I used to work with a bloke who told me a similar tale about his British Aerospace foreman.
> Could well have been company policy. I wouldn't be suprised.
> Where I work now I know one guy wasn't going to get an interview because he lived in rented accommodation. Until we found out and went nuts!


 
No mate, this was at Chadderton - And way back in the 60's.

E2a - when it was still Avro's.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> No mate, this was at Chadderton - And way back in the 60's.


 
This guy was at Weybridge from about 65 to 78ish. He has retired now.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2013)

This is not an april fools - Pensions Minister Steve Webb claims the bedroom tax is:



> bringing people together


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is not an april fools - Pensions Minister Steve Webb claims the bedroom tax is:


 

he a lib-dem?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2013)

Yep


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 1, 2013)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 1, 2013)

Has this been put up?  (Daily Mail and Sun get a mention )


----------



## weepiper (Apr 1, 2013)

Friend of mine's mum who worked for a housing association before she retired put this fb status up



> Have just done a little bit of research on rent prices in Edinburgh. Average price for a one bedroom flat in private sector is £570 per month. Average price for one-bedroom council flat is £260 but there are not very many of these. Average cost for 2 bedroom flat is £400 per month. LHA cap is £494. Why does it make sense for up to £494 to be paid to a private landlord but someone in a cheaper council property is going to have to pay £60 from their benefits? That's why I was on the Axe the Bedroom Tax march on Saturday.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 1, 2013)

Almost 34,000 signatures in 5 hours

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain-duncan-smith-to-live-on-53-a-week


----------



## Badgers (Apr 1, 2013)

Signed


----------



## weepiper (Apr 1, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Almost 34,000 signatures in 5 hours
> 
> https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain-duncan-smith-to-live-on-53-a-week


 
contemptuous cunt that he is

http://furcoatnaenicks.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/if-i-had-to/


----------



## where to (Apr 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is not an april fools - Pensions Minister Steve Webb claims the bedroom tax is:


 
that and the "bedroom blockers" comment are the worst i've heard on this.  both came from Lib Dems.


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

Webb is one of the worst, pre Coalition he was a very vociferous and well informed opponent of the welfare 'reforms'.


----------



## geminisnake (Apr 1, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Almost 34,000 signatures in 5 hours
> 
> https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain-duncan-smith-to-live-on-53-a-week


 
with 48,835 supporters now  Get signing and sharing wherever you can people.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 1, 2013)

geminisnake said:
			
		

> with 48,835 supporters now  Get signing and sharing wherever you can people.



Blimey. Is this one prolific then? Will anything actually happen or is it just satisfying to all agree?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 1, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> with 48,835 supporters now  Get signing and sharing wherever you can people.


Signed, and most people I could pass it to have already either signed or passed it to me.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 1, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Blimey. Is this one prolific then? Will anything actually happen or is it just satisfying to all agree?


We can live in hope.


----------



## geminisnake (Apr 1, 2013)

They probably won't care no matter how many signatures there are  But at least they'll get an inkling of how much people are pissed off. My main fear is that they realise they're fecked and become REALLY NASTY


----------



## Badgers (Apr 1, 2013)

Over 50k and 200 signing per minute


----------



## teqniq (Apr 1, 2013)

Yea I signed and shared it on FB thanks


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 1, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Blimey. Is this one prolific then? Will anything actually happen or is it just satisfying to all agree?


 
Almost 64,000 now.  It won't get anywhere and he has said somewhere before that it's not worth doing it, but it's still a giggle.

Only started less than 8 hours ago 

Don't think whoever did it dreamt it would be so successful


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

been on Sky News, expect a lot more


btw, it is more than a giggle:  as the Sky journo noted it fits a narrative of out of touch toffs..


----------



## geminisnake (Apr 1, 2013)

75k now


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 1, 2013)

I bet when it's up for judicial review (on grounds of disability discrimantion) in early May they'll use a probably ruling against them as an excuse to scrap it and a way of saving face.

Or at least I hope so.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> been on Sky News, expect a lot more
> 
> 
> btw, it is more than a giggle: as the Sky journo noted it fits a narrative of out of touch toffs..


 
Well yes, but I meant it's a giggle as in IDS won't do it, but it shows just how people feel

Argh, you know what I mean


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

Wonder if the BBC will mention it, don't hold your breath...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 1, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> 75k now


 
nearly 80,000


----------



## geminisnake (Apr 1, 2013)

What gets me about his claim is IF he could do it if he had to why the fuck does he feel the need to claim expenses when he already gets a good wage?
3.5K short of 100k


----------



## treelover (Apr 2, 2013)

they are starting younger all the time...


----------



## nogojones (Apr 2, 2013)

Come tell Nick Clegg what you think of the bedroom tax. He's coming to the Lib Dem conference in Cardiff at the Mercure Hotel on Newport Rd. Mid day, 20th April.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 2, 2013)

Errr. DP


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2013)

BNP are trying to get in on this, claiming that muslims can get round the tax by designating 'spare' rooms as prayer rooms. (Also trying to get in on the orgeave justice campaign but that's best left off this thread)


----------



## Badgers (Apr 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> BNP are trying to get in on this, claiming that muslims can get round the tax by designating 'spare' rooms as prayer rooms. (Also trying to get in on the orgeave justice campaign but that's best left off this thread)



 and


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> BNP are trying to get in on this, claiming that muslims can get round the tax by designating 'spare' rooms as prayer rooms. (Also trying to get in on the orgeave justice campaign but that's best left off this thread)


 
They did this a couple of years ago saying that it was a way round the Council Tax.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 3, 2013)

Sorry tale of Labour's unwillingness to engage meaningfully with the Bedroom tax protests in Liverpool:-

http://combatbedroomtax.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/liverpool-labour-snubs-grassroots.html



> A few weeks ago Dingle Combat the Bedroom Tax tenants’ Group decided to invite every Liverpool councillor they could contact to face questions over the Bedroom Tax. They knew that the responses would be tokenistic, but nevertheless, the date was set and yesterday, 2nd April, tenants eagerly awaited a concerned troop of councillors.
> They sent along one Liverpool Labour Councillor, Steve Mumby, which is slightly better than a kick in the chops. Unbeknown to Mumby, one of the tenants snapped a confidential document that Steve had been referring to whilst he was being annihilated by the meeting......


 
Labour


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

Newcastle


----------



## where to (Apr 6, 2013)




----------



## where to (Apr 6, 2013)

> TRADE unionists in Islington will turn out to defend people who refuse to pay the “bedroom tax” – and even help them resist possible eviction.
> 
> Islington Unite, which has just launched a community section, are offering their full support for families hit by the tax including providing squatting “guardians” in the event of a visit from bailiffs.
> 
> Pilgrim Tucker, the union’s community co-ordinator, said: “In the event of someone being evicted we could organise a protest of up to 200 people. If necessary they could all squat in the person’s house for as long as it takes.”


 
http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2013/apr/trade-union-ready-use-home-guardians’-block-bedroom-tax-bailiffs


----------



## sunny jim (Apr 7, 2013)

There's an action/demo organised by Brixton UnCut next saturday 13th. Meet at the big tree in Windrush Square at 11.30am.
https://www.facebook.com/events/235743786566064/


----------



## geminisnake (Apr 10, 2013)

http://www.govanhilllc.com/brtax/brtax.pdf
If you are affected check this to see if you may be able to appeal.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 20, 2013)

Demo in leeds today - great turnout, over a 1000 maybe. Organsied by grassroots non-payment movement, most of the speeches were by ordinary people directly affected rather than full time activists. good stuff.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 20, 2013)

Leeds protest.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2013)

Made the Local News too.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> They did this a couple of years ago saying that it was a way round the Council Tax.


 
The slogan: 'Can't pray, Won't pay' is novel, but not heard at anytime ever.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 22, 2013)

Badgers said:


> and


 
Has quietened down now but we have had weeks of the same question/acusation being posted up in the anti BT groups online. Shortly followed by 'What about freedom of speech' when other members tell them to get a grip...I have taken to simply posting this link now and then deleting the thread a few minutes later. Pretty sure many are coming on to post it and disrupt too: http://www.thatsnonsense.com/view.php?id=1702


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Apr 25, 2013)

Stand Up In Bootle are having a demo again on May 1st - https://www.facebook.com/events/364403473661302/


----------



## audiotech (Apr 25, 2013)

<deleted>


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

Barking and Dagenham have left residents raging over their advice about how to downsize, an example:



> *Barking and Dagenham need to be named and shamed at a bedroom tax meeting they are asking poor vunerable and chronically ill tenants to take out loans so that they can facilitate a move to free up council homes. shame on you barking and Dagenham a labour borough in one of the poorest boroughs in the country. they are also sending out threatening letters regarding people losing their homes for as little as £30 the nasty party have new hench*


 
*@lbbdcouncil*

https://www.facebook.com/barkinganddagenham


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

SALFORD CITY WEST OFFICE INVADED BY ANTI BEDROOM TAX PROTESTERS

_Star date: 25th April 2013_
*LITTLE HULTON AND WALKDEN AGAINST THE BEDROOM TAX TAKES ON CITY WEST*
*Protesters from Little Hulton and Walkden Against The Bedroom Tax occupied the City West Housing office in Little Hulton District Centre this afternoon demanding answers from the social housing company. Will City West reclassify houses and guarantee no evictions? What support is City West giving to its hard up tenants? *

*http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=1793*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

*Bedroom Tax: MP calls second meeting*

http://www.cumnockchronicle.com/new...6/455170-bedroom-tax-mp-calls-second-meeting/


----------



## muscovyduck (Apr 30, 2013)

My local Labour council isn't promising to not evict anyone. Labour Left keep hijacking demonstrations and other protests. Labour can fuck off.


----------



## audiotech (May 4, 2013)

Toolkit from Govan Law Centre on challenging the "bedroom tax" decision.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 7, 2013)

Apparently Brighton Greens have u-turned on their no eviction policy at tonight's meeting.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 7, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently Brighton Greens have u-turned on their no eviction policy at tonight's meeting.


 
That'll piss a lot of people off


----------



## Greebo (May 7, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently Brighton Greens have u-turned on their no eviction policy at tonight's meeting.


Scum.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 8, 2013)

http://brightonbenefitscampaign.wor...s-of-brighton-hove-council-housing-committee/


----------



## BigTom (May 8, 2013)

Lobby of Birmingham Council leader's surgery on the 17th May: http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor...r-no-evictions-over-the-bedroom-tax-17th-may/

Given the huge number of council houses in Birmingham it'd be a big thing to get the council to even make noises towards no evictions but I don't think it'll happen - Albert Bore has said that they will evict eventually.


----------



## audiotech (May 12, 2013)




----------



## Treacle Toes (May 12, 2013)

Our Maria speaking yesterday....


----------



## everything2go (May 14, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/events/505765449478607/

Oxford Bedroom Tax demo on the 1st of June at 1pm.


----------



## ddraig (May 15, 2013)

*Cardiff Thurs 23 May - City Hall*



> *SCRAP THE BEDROOM TAX*
> Lobby Cardiff Council for * No evictions * Redesignation of Houses to evade Bedroom Tax *More Money for Discretionary Housing Payments * Councillors to Stand with Tenants Not The Government.
> Meet at 330pm, Thursday 23rd May,
> at City Hall, Cathays Park
> ...


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2013)

> PROTEST AGAINST THE BEDROOM TAX SHEFFIELD
> 
> You are invited/urged to attend this protest against all benefit cuts outside the City Hall on Saturday 18th May at 11 am.Bring your friends, neighbours and relatives. Bring banners and placards to illustrate your objection to these vicious and damaging cuts. If you would like a meeting to build the campaign in your area please contact us.
> Shirley Frost for
> ...





11am!, why do they do  this?, there is hardly anyone about, especially youngsters.


----------



## ddraig (May 16, 2013)

maybe there is a meeting they want to make the point at?
is there a link that explains it? you could ask them
or get involved and explain why it is not a great time to have a protest.....


----------



## muscovyduck (May 17, 2013)

How can we defeat the Bedroom Tax?
7.30pm Wednesday 22nd May 
St Barnabas Church Centre
High St
Erdington
North Birmingham

Speakers: 
Dave Nellist, former Labour MP and Socialist Party councillor, national chair of TUSC
Ed Bauer, Communities Against the Cuts campaigner
Plenty of time for contributions and questions

"The meeting will discuss practical ways in which those affected can fight the tax but also how we can get organised in order to stop the tax and the other cuts which are making increasing numbers of people's lives a misery."


----------



## everything2go (May 22, 2013)

Ruskin Student Union are organising a demo for the 1st June in Oxford.
https://www.facebook.com/events/505765449478607/


----------



## weepiper (Jun 7, 2013)

Citizen Smart has been arrested for performing his 'ye cannae have a spare room in a pokey council flat' song at the Scottish Tory conference in Stirling today. Allegedly for having racist and provocative lyrics.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Citizen Smart has been arrested for performing his 'ye cannae have a spare room in a pokey council flat' song at the Scottish Tory conference in Stirling today. Allegedly for having racist and provocative lyrics.


 
FFS!


----------



## geminisnake (Jun 7, 2013)

And I'm guessing they'll keep him in til after tomorrow's demo


----------



## weepiper (Jun 7, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> And I'm guessing they'll keep him in til after tomorrow's demo


 

Apparently they've released him but are holding his 'equipment' e.g. guitar, amp etc til the court case. Fuckers.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Citizen Smart has been arrested for performing his 'ye cannae have a spare room in a pokey council flat' song at the Scottish Tory conference in Stirling today. Allegedly for having racist and provocative lyrics.


 
Shameless police behaviour.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 8, 2013)

He's written a statement including the lyrics of the offending song here



> And where were the Scottish Police Force's arrests when 5,000 Orangemen marched around Perth two Saturday ago and when 10,000 marched round Glasgow last Saturday? Why were their instruments not confiscated? And where were the Scottish Police force's arrests when the SDL and EDL gathered in Edinburgh last week to directly intimidate Scotland's Muslim Community? Or is it just top Tories in conference that are not allowed to be offended?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 15, 2013)

*Bedroom tax protest in memory of suicide victim*

13 June 2013 | By Chloë Stothart

A protest is being staged in Birmingham on Saturday in memory of a woman who commited suicide over the bedroom tax.
The demonstration, organised by Birmingham Benefits Justice Campaign, will remember Stephanie Bottrill who left a note blaming the government for her death.

She had been told she would need to pay an extra £20 a week because she lived alone in a three bedroom house after her two children had grown up and moved out.

The demonstration is at 12.00pm on Saturday in Chamberlain Square.

A freedom of information act request by the Labour Party published in April found 13,557 households are affected by the bedroom tax in Birmingham but just 368 one- and two-bedroom properties are currently unoccupied.
The campaigners have demanded that the council refuse to evict tenants who fall into arrears as a result of the bedroom tax.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...H2,1KNN3,7UMU5E,5EPPK,1#.UbrVHzRIDVs.facebook


----------



## marty21 (Jun 15, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Citizen Smart has been arrested for performing his 'ye cannae have a spare room in a pokey council flat' song at the Scottish Tory conference in Stirling today. Allegedly for having racist and provocative lyrics.


Fuckers


----------



## existentialist (Jun 16, 2013)

marty21 said:
			
		

> Fuckers



I think I'm going to have to learn this song and take every opportunity to perform it. 

Or write a new one about people being arrested for singing songs.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

Anti-Bedroom Tax and Benefit Justice Federation.

Legal Advice.


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2013)

> A meeting at Camden Council descended into chaos after campaigners shouted at councillors during a heated debate over the controversial bedroom tax.
> 
> http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/rucku...tax_forces_mayor_to_adjourn_meeting_1_2251086


----------



## audiotech (Jun 26, 2013)

_Government warns Leeds City Council. _


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 26, 2013)

audiotech said:


> _Government warns Leeds City Council. _


The comments are UGH but [edited:] it's going to be interesting to see how the Labour party deals with this


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2013)

actually there are some good comments, much better than we get in our local rag

Wonder what the turnout will be in Manchester later today, Lord Fraud is there attending a social housing exhibition, etc.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2013)

muscovyduck said:


> The comments are UGH but [edited:] it's going to be interesting to see how the Labour party deals with this


 

The history of the local Labour party (in a pretty poor state than ever was) suggests that the odds are on LCC back-tracking pretty quickly and blaming the tories for it. What miracle are you expecting?


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## muscovyduck (Jun 27, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The history of the local Labour party (in a pretty poor state than ever was) suggests that the odds are on LCC back-tracking pretty quickly and blaming the tories for it. What miracle are you expecting?


I know, I know


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## treelover (Jun 27, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=520444681337728&id=128136787240200

Manchester report back

though its hard to find out how many protesters were there


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## muscovyduck (Jun 27, 2013)

Castle Vale (North Birmingham) Bedroom Tax Meeting

Local newspaper article

Edit: Report on Stockland Green/Erdington meeting here


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## audiotech (Jul 2, 2013)

IDS: 'living on another planet'.


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## greenman (Jul 2, 2013)

Nottingham City anti-evictions lobby, 1pm, Monday 8th July.


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## marty21 (Jul 3, 2013)

> *What if one of the rooms taken into account for the SSSC is a very small room or a box room?*
> *A:* It can only be disregarded if it is less than 50sqft (or 4.7sq metres). To work out the square area of a room a tenant should measure the length and the width and multiply one by the other (for example a room that is 7ft x 7ft is 49sqft)


 
Part of some guidance I have just received which is basically asking the question, when is a room not a room? when it is under 50 sq foot? So a social landlord could re-classify a room so that it doesn't count as a room and therefore doesn't get affected by the bedroom tax if the tenant is under-occupying. 
This could cause an administrative nightmare tbh - which will make the bedroom tax even more of a farce than it already is. Just of the top of my head - it will affect Council Tax valuations, a 2 bed flat will might not charged the same council tax as a 3 bedroom flat , and will the reclassification be retrospective? could a tenant re-claim council tax going back several years? What about RTB? will a tenant buying a flat now - get a price reduction if they can claim it is a 2 bed rather than a 3 bed? How about people who have bought in the past, could they take legal action because they were told they were buying a 3 bed and it was only a 2 bed? And tenants who moved to larger flats because they were overcrowded, again overcrowded in the same flat because it is now a 2 bed - so they can now apply for a real 3 bed - putting more people on the waiting list?
I guess an IDS law change would be one way the government could respond - if you have been cought out by the courts - change the law - simples!


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## marty21 (Jul 3, 2013)

What a tenant should do is insist on a room measurement - this will cause extra expense - the time of the person who has to measure it - it will have a knock on effect to performance - if we are going out all the time measuring rooms - you can bet other things will suffer - and we will make a fuss if it is causing a lot of extra work - and it is does - it will filter up to senior management who will eventually make a fuss - and when Tory flagship councils such as Wandsworth and Westminster start making a fuss - the pressure will be on IDS to prove that the bedroom tax is actually saving money


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## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2013)

Seems that Leeds labour have just voted down a 'no evictions' motion.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 13, 2013)

*No Bedroom Tax Evictions - Haringey - Lobby of Housing Councillor - Sat 14 Sep 10.30am Wood Green Library*

http://www.antibedroomtax.org.uk/20...ax/97-lobby-tomorrow-no-evictions-in-haringey


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## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)




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## weepiper (Sep 14, 2013)

Bedroom Tax protestors starting to gather outside the Lib Dem conference in Glasgow


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## weepiper (Sep 14, 2013)

more


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## equationgirl (Sep 14, 2013)

Armadillo!


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## Sprocket. (Sep 14, 2013)

This says so much and can I say I am not surprised one little bit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24090772


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 23, 2013)

*Full details of first bedroom tax tribunal rulings*

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/regu...cle?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 11, 2013)

*  LOBBY MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL EXECUTIVE*
With Labour out to Axe the Bedroom Tax - Threats of Eviction Must Stop Now!

LOBBY MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL EXECUTIVE 
From 9am Weds 23rd October at the Town Hall Albert Square
We will deliver the No Eviction! Petition

http://nobedroomtax.co.uk/


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## weepiper (Oct 11, 2013)

No to Bedroom Tax stood a candidate in the Govan council by-election yesterday and came third with 446 votes, eclipsing the Tory, Lib Dem, UKIP and Green vote.


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## weepiper (Oct 11, 2013)

This is the vote breakdown

Labour 2055
SNP 1224
No 2 Bedroom Tax 446
Tories 215
UKIP 113
Green 112
Ind 103
Lib Dems 73
Christian Party 60
Fans Against Criminalisation 52
Communist Party 35
Solidarity 28
BNP 19

Lib Dems 73  lol


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## audiotech (Oct 11, 2013)

'Dying Birmingham grandma fighting 'evil' bedroom tax from her deathbed.'

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/dying-birmingham-grandma-fighting-evil-6173382


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## barney_pig (Oct 13, 2013)

"Hats off to Labour for finally coming up with some policies. Its pledge to *repeat* the toxic bedroom tax is testament to the success of campaigns by the left to make Labour pay attention to working class "
Telling typo from the Left Unity newsletter


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2013)




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## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2013)

> *  March Against the Bedroom Tax with Pots & Pans*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://nobedroomtax.co.uk/2-general/72-march-against-the-bedroom-tax-with-pots-pans


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## nogojones (Oct 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> View attachment 42515



Was just going to bump this as we're off down there in a bit


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2013)

nogojones said:


> Was just going to bump this as we're off down there in a bit



Nice one!!!!


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## ddraig (Oct 26, 2013)

pic from Cardiff
not mine




http://www.itv.com/news/wales/story/2013-10-26/protests-against-bedroom-tax/


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2013)

> *Bedroom Tax is a typical flash of idiocy - another one of the Tories' creaky blinders *
> 26 Oct 2013 18:00
> The Sunday People political editor says ministers should think through all the implications of an idea before introducing it



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-typical-flash-idiocy-2643077#ixzz2iuXnCV32


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## fiannanahalba (Oct 28, 2013)

ddraig said:


> pic from Cardiff
> not mine
> 
> 
> ...


Thats not Cardiff- thats Tam from Govan in Glasgow.


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## ddraig (Oct 28, 2013)

was thinking that yesterday as it seemed a bit early
just took it from the itv page
thanks for confirmation


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2013)

An example of the supportive emails people from the online campaign are receiving:



> *This email reply from Frank Field, Labour MP....
> 
> Frank Field MP
> 
> ...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2013)

> *Scrap The Bedroom Tax- Vote In Parliament 12 November!*



http://samedifference1.com/2013/11/06/scrap-the-bedroom-tax-vote-in-parliament-12-november/


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2013)

* Nick Clegg's promise of bedroom tax review is a 'sham,' says Harriet Harman *





 
*Criticism comes as it emerges evaluation will take two years and will not include public consultation*


 Jane Merrick 





Saturday 09 November 2013



Nick Clegg’s promise of a review into the controversial so-called 'bedroom tax' was labelled a “sham” by Harriet Harman today after it emerged it will not be complete until late 2015 and will not hear from the public.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ew-is-a-sham-says-harriet-harman-8930911.html


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> An example of the supportive emails people from the online campaign are receiving:


 

I would trust Mad Frankie Field as far as I could throw him, and that isn't far...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2013)

*Affordable homes facing demolition because of bedroom tax*
Housing associations say change to benefit rules means tenants cannot afford to rent three-bed maisonettes

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/10/bedrooom-tax-affordable-homes-face-demolition


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## Jackobi (Nov 10, 2013)

Some excellent issues raised in this debate at Westminster Hall on 5th November, it's quite long and requires Silverlight or Media player, but restored my faith in some politicians:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=14033


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2013)

Jackobi There have been some great debates/points raised both in the commons and Lords over the last year or so  to no avail yet...next Tuesday there is the 'scrap the bedroom tax' vote and protests are being planned to coincide. The gov is under more pressure now, FOI requests, letter/email lobbying of MPs, contact with the press has gone a fair way to exposing the unworkableness of this poxy policy...let's see what happens.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2013)

> *
> timpsone@parliament.uk,
> justin.tomlinson.mp@parliament.uk,
> tredinnickd@parliament.uk,
> ...



Here is a list of the MPs who voted in favour of the BT last time...they are being targetted. Given the evidence we have now, using HA & councils own figures the hope is to change the minds of some of them. A long shot I know BUT...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2013)

Commons debate and vote today on whether or not to scrap the tax. Protests planned too!



> Tenants and disabled people’s groups will be protesting at the parliament next Tuesday as MPs debate abolishing the bedroom tax.
> 
> Protests planned to coincide with bedroom tax debate
> 
> ...



http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/care...x-debate/6529421.article#.Un9I66uvbLM.twitter


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## ddraig (Nov 12, 2013)

and IDS hiding away from it!


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## brogdale (Nov 12, 2013)

ddraig said:


> and IDS hiding away from it!



Yes....still in Paris, apparently.

Left his LD fag to defend the indefensible....and that party's conference didn't even support the Under Occupancy penalty.

Some LD MPs have decided the whole was a _*"mistake".*_ FFS


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## brogdale (Nov 12, 2013)

Not that the LD rebels will make any difference....



> *• Several Lib Dem MPs have indicated that they will rebel when the Commons votes tonight on a Labour motion calling for the abolition of the bedroom tax*. Tim Farron, the Lib Dem president, is planning to vote against his government and, in the chamber, Charles Kennedy, the former Lib Dem leader, and Andrew George have both said they are opposed to the bedroom tax. Another four Lib Dems have signed a Commons motion strongly criticising the bedroom tax. Party insiders believe that _*up to 15 Lib Dems could rebel*_ when the votes comes at 7pm.



Not nearly enough...



> On 9 December 2010, over university tuition fees, _*21 Liberal Democrat rebels*_ combined with _*six Conservative backbenchers, the Labour frontbench and the minor parties, reducing the Government’s majority to 21*_, which remains the lowest Coalition majority thus this Parliament.
> The Coalition not only has a stable working majority on paper, but also a very high average day-to-day working majority in practice.
> http://nottspolitics.org/2011/09/21/what-do-you-think-the-government’s-commons-majority-is/



So the bedroom tax will survive, and live as a testimony to the LDs that have enacted it. Bastards.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2013)

Lost it by 26 votes? 252 to 226 I think.


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## brogdale (Nov 12, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Lost it by 26 votes? 252 to 226 I think.


Yep.
The silly fuckers who thought their vote for a 'review' of the policy at LD conference might 'do something' now see the reality of being a tory party in a tory government. Well and truely in the class war axis of evil.


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## DRINK? (Nov 13, 2013)

labour won't repeal it, they campaigned for it in their 2010 manifesto


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## campanula (Nov 13, 2013)

I simply have no idea how I am going to face this winter (heating, ha ha....as if). If I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I swear I would take one of those filthy bastards down with me.


Waits for knock on door from GCHQ


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 14, 2013)

...and this is another piece of the puzzle  



> *Rent payments to appear on credit files by the New Year*
> *Tuesday 12th November 2013*
> 
> * Credit reference agency Experian has revealed that rent payments will appear on credit reports for the first time from the end of this year.*
> ...



http://www.landlordtoday.co.uk/news_features/Rent-payments-to-appear-on-credit-files-by-the-New-Year


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