# In redundancy consultation



## Mumbles274 (Feb 16, 2018)

Just on my way home from the first meeting where 10 Team Leaders have been told we are being culled to 5.

Not really sure how i feel right now. Had union in the meeting so think I've got a fair grasp of the process and will be supported. 

Don't think id make the 5 and don't think the chance of redeployment is going to be good for me so am thinking of trying to negotiate a decent voluntary payout.

There is also some other stuff going on with work that ill say more about at some point.. Complaints about discrimination on the grounds of my mental health in short.

Strange week or so


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## equationgirl (Feb 16, 2018)

Has the process been explained fully, for example are they going to pool all the team leaders and keep the highest scorers, or make everyone apply for the available positions? 

Do not attend any meetings without someone going with you, union or otherwise. 

Best of luck.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Has the process been explained fully, for example are they going to pool all the team leaders and keep the highest scorers, or make everyone apply for the available positions?
> 
> Do not attend any meetings without someone going with you, union or otherwise.
> 
> Best of luck.


It will be an interview and selection process. We sont have to apply per se and other than the JD we dont know what criteria they are selecting on.

Union will be at meetings yes. Will also be talking to them about options in the meantime.


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 17, 2018)

Solidarity and best of luck


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 17, 2018)

Sorry to hear this, Mumbles274, especially on top of everything else you guys have had going on.

Wishing you the best possible outcome.


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## wayward bob (Feb 17, 2018)

jeez that really is a shit week. strength to you x


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

I'm trying to see it as a positive, it may just be the push I need to get out of a toxic job. The cuts to funding make it harder and harder to actually do a good job, the managers are always clueless.. Just like I would be if I went one or two levels up! None of which is going to get better. 


The annoying thing is i have very little formal qualifications that i can take elsewhere so any new job is likely to involve a big drop in pay and even if I found a relatively comparable wage, that would be in London so eaten up by expensive season ticket. I could try to be one of those clueless higher level managers!!!

The main worry is the uncertainty about paying the bills. I've not had a pay rise in years as it is so have been feeling the pinch like lots of us already. There aren't many things I can cut back on that I haven't already, so a big drop in pay worries me as debt just spirals so quickly.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 17, 2018)

:solidarity fist bump: Mumbles274 - that is a really horrible state of affairs. (Seems to be that time of year again)
Hope you / union can negotiate a good deal & what you want happens.
Best wishes.


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## weltweit (Feb 17, 2018)

Sorry to read this Mumbles274, redundancies are always difficult even if you don't get selected yourself. Bear in mind that a decent payout is only really useful if you manage to get another job quickly, if not the DWP tend to make you spend it before they will give you benefits.


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## Miss-Shelf (Feb 17, 2018)

Solidarity too ftom me.  hope it is a doorway into better things.   I get the worry about debt and hope there are ways through it that are not too painful


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## farmerbarleymow (Feb 17, 2018)

Best of luck with this Mumbles274 - this is the last thing you need on top of the other issues you've been dealing with.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

I mentioned I have some other stuff going on, I'll try try to summarise it!

I've had quite a lot of time off work due to stress at work/ anxiety and depression. Last year our contract was TUPE'd and at that time it came after serveral months, if not years of a complete lack of support at work. When we TUPE'd we got told our jobs were in consultation ( they then retracted this) and I found it all too much and was signed off work. At that point the new HR and the ops manager met with me and reassured me they woukldn't be sacking me for being unwell ( threats I had had), they told me I had options, such as an office move, reduced duties etc. When I came back from sick I was told I was going to be placed under reasonable adjustments for 6 months, no options, no choice for me. I was also told I would have this in writing and would have monthly review with HR

6 weeks later after chasing it up I finally got the letter. Not long after that I wrote an email to the new area manager complaining about HR, we had a new hub managher moved into my office, the job wasn't advertised and its a job I've asked about acting up in and made known I was interested in, I made it clear I felt I had been hindered in my career and not afforded the correct oppurtinuty and also that HR were not supporting me as agreed and I had no say or control in matters as I did not want to be on RA anymore. The outcome of that was HR came and met with me and basically bollocked me for sending the email saying how dissappointed they all were in me! I was told I would stay on RA for the full 6 months.

Throughout this I have also been trying to engage my managers in making positive changes to working practices, I am vocal aboput this and havre implemented and developed various systems that staff use in their day to day work. I was told I couldl train the teams across the area in these things, that I would be part of developement teams etc, none of which happened.

Towards the back end of last year I suffered a chest infection, my mood suffered and I had a bit of a breakdown. Luckily quite shortlived, I increased my therapy sessions to weekly, upped my meds and got back to work.

With this my absence levels are through the roof, we use some scoring method to monitor it, I had a check in meeting with a manager that was covering my caseload and the absence issue was left to be dealt with by my line manager.

Christmas came and went, my manager kept on saying 'we need to catch up'm, he had also said my absence would be dealt with 'informally' but never actually booked time to see me, whilst he did meet with other staff.Things came to a head one day when I finally met with him and I challenged him about this all. I complained that my absence was not being dealt with and that the ideas and attempts to improve things were being ignored, that there was a culture of bullying that had not been resolved and it was not acceptable. He told me to put it in an email, so I did. I made a formal complaint.

Eventually, it took over 2 weeks some one from HR contacted me to find out more, deal with the 2 apsects I had raised. Namely, dealing with my high absence and the issue of bullying and how I am not lsitened to or used for my expereince and abilities.

HR said they my manager would be arranging the absence meeting and the other issues were to be raised with the Ops manager for him to discuss with with.

As of my hospital visit last week, neither had happened still. So when I spoke to my manager this week to say I was gpoing to be off sick I ripped into him again, again he saud piut it in an email, which I did. I also then phoned HR to raise it with whoever I could speak to and basically made a big noise about it. I have speficically complained about the ops and area manager for discriminating against me. I have also complained about a specific HR manager who gave some managers' absense training in among all this where she was going to name all the poeople with poor absence records in a training event until it got shut down by some of the other managers there. Needless to say I wrote an email of complaint about that to the area manager, who I was advised by someone else in HR would be feeding back to me. That hasn't happened either.

Then Tuesday, after I kick up a huge stink about all this I get the consultation email to my personal email address from the HR person I complained about, on behalf of the ops manager I have complained about.

On thursday the HR person 'invited' me to a meeting with them both to discuss my concerns, I politley refused and CC'd someone else at HR
 At the meeting yesterday she spoke to me afterwards to ask if i wanted to speak to her, again I politlely refused.

Needless to say, even if I did want to go for one of these 5 roles, and Im not sure if I do or don't. I don't think I have a chance of being treated equally or fairly but do I push to fight them or just try to take my money and run?

I hope that is a followable time line of stuff, there is always a lot more in the detail. I'll be putting all this in my case form to the union, I've discussed it with the steward that was at the meeting yesterday and as you can imagine she doesn't think it sounds good at all!!!


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## Baronage-Phase (Feb 17, 2018)

Ah feck. You're having a tough week.
And this on top.

But...as you say it's a toxic work environment and if they give you a decent redundancy package then maybe it is the best thing?

On another note....
Hope you two are both feeling a lot better than last week..

Eta...sorry...I had not read your last post when I posted


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## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2018)

Good luck Mumbles274 

Hope there's money to take and run with


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

We both feel much better


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 17, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> The main worry is the uncertainty about paying the bills. I've not had a pay rise in years as it is so have been feeling the pinch like lots of us already. There aren't many things I can cut back on that I haven't already, so a big drop in pay worries me as debt just spirals so quickly.



That's always the worst fear IME, having resigned from jobs without another lined-up (too many times ), and being made redundant once, that was the worst, as it wasn't my choice, I liked that job & it was a good earner, didn't see it coming at all, so it was a fucking shock. The business was sold to its only competitor in the area, the cuts started within a week.

On the other hand, we had just taken out a mortgage and a massive loan, but had 'redundancy insurance' on them both, and they paid out in full just on my redundancy & despite my ex working f/t, so that made a big different.

I don't know your set-up, but if you are buying a place, got any loans or credit card debts, just check any insurance you have on them. 

I also don't know your work experience, but if you find yourself looking for work, try to stay positive & think out of the box - I've tended to take any old job as a temporarily situation, and largely enjoyed the experiences, even if the money was shit, it was better than nothing. Plus when the right job jumps up & hits you in the face, it looks good on the CV that you kept busy until the right thing came up. I am sure I didn't really need to type that, although if the head is a bit all over the place, may be it was handy reading it.

I am unemployable in the sector where most my experience has been, because all the small companies have been taken over by corporate giants, and I can't handle working for them, so I fell into self-employment, and just wished I had done it before.

Just throwing it out as a thought, I know a lot of self-employed people around here doing very nicely out of offering some of the most basic services, from gutter clearing, lawn mowing, dog walking, a 'pets to vets' service, 'handy man', shopping, cleaning, and ironing services, etc. - all clearing £100+++ a day. For example, the dog walker tends to charge £10 ph, but regularly takes 4-6 dogs for walkies at the same time, factor in the time picking-up & dropping off the different dogs & the van's running costs, she's on north of £20.00. It's easier enough, in the south-east, to find clients - social media, flyering, and even the old fashioned cards in shop windows, will soon get the calls coming in. 

As I say, just a thought, never rule anything out, keep an open mind, stay positive, think out of the box, and IME that opens up a wider range of options in time, until 'the one' happens. 

I hope that makes sense, wee bit stoned TBH.


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 17, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Needless to say, even if I did want to go for one of these 5 roles, and Im not sure if I do or don't. I don't think I have a chance of being treated equally or fairly but do I push to fight them or just try to take my money and run?



First, sorry to read all that. 

Secondly, reading what I have, I would be looking to get the hell out on the best terms as possible, and start afresh, but that's me, only you can answer that question for yourself.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 17, 2018)

Mumbles, I certainly can't "like" that briefing about your situation post, but it certainly sounds like rampant bullying and a toxic workplace management "system".
If you can get a decent pay-off then maybe leaving would be a better option - redundancy and looking for work are stressful processes, but are surely better than the status quo. (e2a - cupid_stunt makes some good points !)
Glad to hear that your joint health situation is better ...


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

Yeah, I want out


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## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2018)

If you apply for one of these jobs and don't get it or don't even apply then you're not automatically jobless they have to go through the process of making you redundant and you can spin this out for a bit if you decide you want to appeal which shouldn't affect any payment you're entitled to receive but make sure it's compulsory. The last time I was made redundant in 2015 the rules were you could claim JSA straightaway if it was compulsory but you had to wait if it was voluntary, I suspect the rules have changed for the worse under UC but its worth checking.  
I've been made redundant three times now and it is worrying but it isn't the end of the world.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

A careers advisor friend came round today and did my CV for me. I also applied for a job  I can't see I stand a chance of being selected and will potentially make that case that they can not be fair towards me with what else has gone on, It might give me more negotiating power with regard to voluntary redundancy amounts? If I wasn't selected my feeling would be that I would win any appeal about that on grounds of discrimination, they will know that I'm sure?

I've got my case form to complete for the Union tomorrow which will take a long time. When I'm at work next week I'll print off all my line mangement notes and complaint emails. I'm sure they willl advise me on the best course of action with the help from their lawyers, they know how to make agenicies like this shit themselves!

Thanks for all they replies. We still have all of lamb1979's window cleaning gear so there is always an option to try to earn some money with that!! Not ideal but if it was something to keep cash flowing while I find more suitable work I don't mind that.


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## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2018)

First and foremost get advice from the Union and their solicitors, that's what you pay your subs for.
I was a Union Rep a few years ago and I occasionally had dealing with Unions solicitors, they're not Perry Mason but they knew their stuff and were genuinely interested in helping so feel confident about talking to them.
Everything else is my two pennies worth and should be treated as such.
Again unless the rules have changed redundancy is covered by a statutory formula which is/was something like half a weeks pay for every year of service up to age 21 or 22, a week for every year up to about age 42 and a week and a half for every year above that age. There is a fixed maximum figure so the  maximum amount you can get on statutory is about £10K if you've been there for ages and usually a lot  less. They also have to pay you your notice period as well and for un-taken holidays on a pro rata basis.
Though they don't have to, lots of places pay enhanced terms which usually means lifting the statutory maximum figure and paying you your actual pay often capped at equivalent to a years pay so find out what is on offer in that regard.
This is what I got, 56 years old and 25 years service I walked out with a full years pay.
Actually fuck walking out, I left skipping and laughing with a song in my heart.
Since its subject to statutory rules I don't think playing the discrimination card will get you any more money but it might increase your chance of keeping your job if that is what you want but be warned there are ways of "adjusting" these interviews it will do you no good it you get moved up from rated 10th to rated 6th if there are still only 5 jobs.
But talk to the solicitors like I said all the Union ones I've met have been great.


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 17, 2018)

a few disconnected thoughts - 

Any organisation should have a process for deciding who to make redundant.  They can't just say 'we have decided to make you, you and you redundant'.  Bit more on CAB website here.

As far as I'm aware, they can use sick leave as one criteria, although if it's a long term health condition as defined in equalities law (i.e. something lasting over a year) then they could be in trouble.

There's no obligation to offer voluntary redundancy, or to offer enhanced terms for voluntary redundancy.  Some private income protection insurance plans will rule out paying if you take voluntary, rather than compulsory redundancy, so if you want out, it may be better to go through the motions but not try too hard, rather than volunteer.

Also, some organisations are cunty enough to try it on with dodgy disciplinaries as soon as anyone volunteers for redundancy, or to try and force them in to a situation where they are more likely to resign (which will save them the redundancy pay)   And if you do volunteer but don't get it (one place I worked they usually got more people volunteering to go than they actually wanted to get rid of) life can get a bit uncomfortable.

My understanding (albeit before universal credit happened) is that the dole doesn't care whether it's voluntary or compulsory redundancy (I did enquire when redundancy was possible, but that was a while ago now)  But they will only pay out from the time after employment ends, so if you get pay in lieu of notice as well as redundancy pay, then your claim would start at the end of the notice period not immediately after the last day you actually work.

This (from CAB) mentions the issue of voluntary redundancy and mortgage protection schemes, but does not say it's a problem with universal credit.

A big redundancy payout will affect any income related benefits as the payout will be counted as savings / capital (before UC, the thresholds per individual or couple were that having over £ 16K to your name meant you didn't get income related benefits, less than £ 6 K was fine, anywhere between the two you got benefits reduced.)

If you're just over one of the thresholds, there are restrictions on what you can / can't do with the money - if (for example) you gave it away to friends / family, you would be regarded as 'having intentionally deprived yourself of capital' so the DWP would treat you as if you still had it.  I'm not sure what the rules / procedures are now if you use some / all of it to pay off debts / a chunk of mortgage - would suggest getting better qualified advice if this might be an issue.

Income related benefits will also be affected from day one by a partner's income /savings (partner in this concept is one of the few situations where the state recognises 'common law' partners by the way - I don't know the OP's circumstances)

Redundancy pay did not used to affect NI contributions based benefits (although early / ill health retirement with a pension could do)

Yes, definitely print - or store somewhere safe electronically - any e-mails.  It's surprising how good some organisations are at 'accidentally' deleting e-mails when the shit hits the fan.

If you've started applying for other jobs, find out how long you have to stick with current employer to still get a redundancy deal (depends how important you treat either getting payout / getting another job.  Ideal of course is to get both) - one place I worked, it was closing down on X date, but after something like a month before, you were allowed to go and still get your redundancy pay.  I'm not sure whether this was a legal requirement or something that got negotiated locally.  

Hope all goes well and you get an outcome you want.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

Thanks Puddy_Tat and MickiQ , all really helpful


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## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2018)

Clarifying a little on Puddy_Tat's excellent post, if they are getting rid of your entire team they don't have to score you, they just declare the whole team redundant and move onto the next step of what is (somewhat laughably)  called the consultation process.
If they're not then you have to be put in a pool and scored, the mechanism is down to your employer but if your union has recognition rights they get a say in designing it.
However it works you have the right to see the process, your score and your relative position on the final scoresheet (but not other peoples scores)
When I got  awarded the Grand Order of the Boot in 2015 my whole team of 4 was just declared redundant since our work was going to Newcastle so there was no scoring.
The team next to us lost 5 out of 12 and so I saw the process which was where you got 1 point per year of service, -4, -2, 0, +2, +4 points depending on what you last got on your staff appraisal which put everyone in 5 bands. Then you lost 1 point for every unauthorised absence (which did include sickness) if you had more than 3.
It was number of unauthorised absences so if you had 6 months off for a heart attack you lost nothing but half a dozen duvet days on Monday would cost you 3 points.  The kicker was the last box labelled "Management Potential", you couldn't lose any here but your manager could award you 0-10 points based on his view of your "potential" so  if the person he really wanted to keep was in the chop pool he could use that to fiddle it and  get them into the safe pool (which meant someone went down)
I was very impressed someone had put a lot of thought into designing a system that both looked scrupulously fair and yet could still be fiddled.
What I don't know is whether this 'Apply for your own Job' shit counts as making the full team redundant or not. That is one thing that really ought to be banned it's disgraceful. On the bright side they can't force anyone to apply and it could be that the one person they really want to keep thinks they can get a better job and not bother in which case they could find they've stuffed themselves.
One final point on the amount of redundancy, depending on the amount they offer you, they may also offer you the chance to put some in your pension as a tax free sum, if they do think about, for me it was a great deal.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 17, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> Clarifying a little on Puddy_Tat's excellent post, if they are getting rid of your entire team they don't have to score you, they just declare the whole team redundant and move onto the next step of what is (somewhat laughably)  called the consultation process.
> If they're not then you have to be put in a pool and scored, the mechanism is down to your employer but if your union has recognition rights they get a say in designing it.
> However it works you have the right to see the process, your score and your relative position on the final scoresheet (but not other peoples scores)
> When I got  awarded the Grand Order of the Boot in 2015 my whole team of 4 was just declared redundant since our work was going to Newcastle so there was no scoring.
> ...


that's all really useful info too, thanks


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## equationgirl (Feb 17, 2018)

MickiQ just to note that whilst a union, through reps or shop stewards, may have input into a scoring matrix the reps will not formally agree such a matrix because such an agreement could limit legal options further down the line. 

Have been in that situation recently, and despite the union reps formally declining to agree a matrix, HR still tried to claim that we had.


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## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> MickiQ just to note that whilst a union, through reps or shop stewards, may have input into a scoring matrix the reps will not formally agree such a matrix because such an agreement could limit legal options further down the line.
> 
> Have been in that situation recently, and despite the union reps formally declining to agree a matrix, HR still tried to claim that we had.


Matrix yep that's my ex-employer called it as well, how similar was yours to the one used on us?


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## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> Matrix yep that's my ex-employer called it as well, how similar was yours to the one used on us?


No idea!! After all the effort spent on it, it's not been used for all the people put at risk...


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 21, 2018)

Got my one to one on Monday. Have seen the criteria.
60% interview. 10%: absence, length of service, disciplinary, qualification

i don't stand a chance of being treated fairly. or at least don't think i do and they cant reassure me otherwise. Just hope i can get voluntary, seems that is not a given from what we received yesterday


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 21, 2018)

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Shame you have to wait until after the weekend, I personally hate waiting for any sort of important meeting.


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## MickiQ (Feb 21, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Got my one to one on Monday. Have seen the criteria.
> 60% interview. 10%: absence, length of service, disciplinary, qualification
> 
> i don't stand a chance of being treated fairly. or at least don't think i do and they cant reassure me otherwise. Just hope i can get voluntary, seems that is not a given from what we received yesterday


Shouldn't make any difference you are entitled to the same amount of money whether it is compulsory or voluntary, and while I admit that I am not current on benefit rules, I still think compulsory will get you benefits paid quicker (if anyone knows better please feel free to correct me) 
I think it will probably look better on looking on for another job as well,  When the interviewer asks why you left your previous job you may have to explain voluntary, if it was compulsory you can just say "Budget Cuts", there are so many redundancies these days no one will question that.
Best of luck with your interview but if you are really unhappy there then it might turn out to be for the best anyway.


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## cybershot (Feb 21, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> Shouldn't make any difference you are entitled to the same amount of money whether it is compulsory or voluntary



Sometimes voluntary is offered more money!


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 21, 2018)

cybershot said:


> Sometimes voluntary is offered more money!


That's my understanding.. Apparently compulsory would be statutory only and that's not going to be good for me at all


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 21, 2018)

Best of luck mumbles xx


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 21, 2018)

as i said earlier, there is no legal requirement to offer voluntary redundancy, nor (if it is offered) to pay enhanced redundancy deals.

is there an existing policy on redundancy / redundancy pay?  or established custom and practice?

if there is and they are trying to change the rules, that could be dodgy, as existing policy or practice could legally be part of your contract.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 21, 2018)

Word has it they have paid well before


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 21, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Word has it they have paid well before




anything on paper?

is union pursuing this?


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 21, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> anything on paper?
> 
> is union pursuing this?


No, and not sure at this point.


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## MickiQ (Feb 21, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> That's my understanding.. Apparently compulsory would be statutory only and that's not going to be good for me at all


That sounds to me like someone is trying to pull a fast one and pressure you to go to save them the trouble of going through the legal process, you need to take advice from your union about this.
An employer does not have to offer voluntary (though most do) and can go straight to compulsory but what you're saying stinks, you definitely need to speak to someone in the union, a full-time branch official if your local rep is not sure what  to do.


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## MickiQ (Feb 21, 2018)

cybershot said:


> Sometimes voluntary is offered more money!


I've never personally heard of that being the case, I've seen loads go on either and usually volunteers get a bit better deal such as picking a date, being allowed to hang onto company assets such as a car or phone for a short while wilst they sort out a replacement but never more money. 
It wouldn't  surprise me if some of the more 'cunty' employers might try that on but I'd be surprised if it is totally legit, in places where there is at least some union recognition they tend to at least make some effort to do it properly.


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## Looby (Feb 21, 2018)

It’s pretty common for voluntary to be worth more money. It was certainly the case when I was a civil servant and my husband doesn’t think that’s changed since I left.


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## cybershot (Feb 21, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I've never personally heard of that being the case, I've seen loads go on either and usually volunteers get a bit better deal such as picking a date, being allowed to hang onto company assets such as a car or phone for a short while wilst they sort out a replacement but never more money.
> It wouldn't  surprise me if some of the more 'cunty' employers might try that on but I'd be surprised if it is totally legit, in places where there is at least some union recognition they tend to at least make some effort to do it properly.



It was a pretty nice package when I applied for it. Much better than statutory. Shame however they refused my application to go as I was needed.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 22, 2018)

Good luck, I'm going through the same process at the moment (200+ people getting fired moved to Glasgow)

Do your best, and don't panic. It'll be fine, keep looking for work and going for interviews to get yourself back in the habit, take notes and its ok to say no and just go for the interview to get your confidence up and working again. You should hopefully get something out of your current place so don't be afraid to take em for as much as possible and dial back your efforts towards the buggers. 

Hope your union helps as well, they should be grand.


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## MickiQ (Feb 22, 2018)

Looby said:


> It’s pretty common for voluntary to be worth more money. It was certainly the case when I was a civil servant and my husband doesn’t think that’s changed since I left.


Was it a case of voluntary only? or were they actually asking for volunteers and saying more money if you volunteer now but there will be compulsory if not enough of you do volunteer, but we will give you less money?
As for the OP's case, it is bang out of order if they telling him that volunteers can have more money but he can't volunteer and will have to be chucked out.
He needs to keep banging on the union's door about this and take someone along to any meetings with him, that is a right no-one can refuse him.


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## equationgirl (Feb 23, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good luck, I'm going through the same process at the moment (200+ people getting fired moved to Glasgow)
> 
> Do your best, and don't panic. It'll be fine, keep looking for work and going for interviews to get yourself back in the habit, take notes and its ok to say no and just go for the interview to get your confidence up and working again. You should hopefully get something out of your current place so don't be afraid to take em for as much as possible and dial back your efforts towards the buggers.
> 
> Hope your union helps as well, they should be grand.


Ha. I'm in Glasgow and in consultation. 

Employers don't always do a voluntary round. Mine are doing compulsory redundancies at present. Some people offered to go because it suits them to, but it's not really saved anyone's job in all honesty. The union is supportive of the members, but not everyone is a member.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 23, 2018)

My union will have a rep at my one to one.. Hoping to make it a quick and painless exit with a nice payoff to be honest. Had enough now!

I applied for a job last week and have an interview next Thursday for a Trainee High Intensity therapist and will keep applying for any other roles I see too


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 23, 2018)

Looby said:


> It’s pretty common for voluntary to be worth more money. It was certainly the case when I was a civil servant and my husband doesn’t think that’s changed since I left.


This is my understanding and what union have said too


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 23, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> have an interview next Thursday for a Trainee High Intensity therapist




i hope that there isn't a Senior High Intensity Therapist grade...


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

Looby said:


> It’s pretty common for voluntary to be worth more money. It was certainly the case when I was a civil servant and my husband doesn’t think that’s changed since I left.


Yeh when I got made redundant I got extra money for not sabotaging the workplace before I left


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 27, 2018)

Had my one to one yesterday. Was a joke. They had my length of service wrong so didn't have accurate vol red figure. I got that emailed today. Its based on stat only so just under £15k.

Fuck all for 17 years career but fuck it, time to move on. Until those Tory cunts lose power there wont be a change in social care policy so services like this will slowly be killed off. It's the clients i feel for, if i was on a script in this country id have a very squeaky bum, but sadly those that need our help most no longer meet the targets and 'client profile' that workers can manage in a system that is designed to only help nice easy service users that probably don't really need our help anyway!! The real problematic users are all dropping out and dropping dead coz workers find them hard work against a backdrop of bullshit outcomes and micromanagent performance monitoring

Fingers crossed they agree to my redundancy request. If not ill prob get fuck all money and offered a job in a prison i don't want. Fuck banging up people for being drug users. Amen


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 27, 2018)

good luck mumbles. it is a shock to the system after so long but it will do you good by the sounds of things.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 27, 2018)

Im gutted. I love my work. Dedicated 17 years to opiate users and done my level best to make sure they have as good a chance to be as good as they want to be.. If people want to use and stay safe on a script, fine by me. Im an old school harm reductionist through and through, maybe one or 2 of those left in my area.. Lets hope it comes back round before its too late.l


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## TopCat (Feb 27, 2018)

Good luck Mumbles, I hope you wangle a better job soon. I m in this shit process right now as TFL has officially NO MONEY.


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## MickiQ (Feb 28, 2018)

The maximum you can get on statutory for 17 years is just over £12K and you'd have to be 58 at least so unless they've given you something like 6 months notice pay as well you've done better than that.
No consolation for losing your job of course but enough to live on for a few months at least, make sure you sign on as soon as you finish. You've paid your taxes and it's your money, you're entitled to it. 
They don't seem to bother putting people on the forced labour scheme until they've been unemployed for some time, so you'll be safe from that for a while since there are plenty of others whose lives they can make difficult before they get round to you.
good luck with finding another job and if you find one soon then you will still have your money as well.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 28, 2018)

Suit: £230
Shoes: £50
Watch: £50
Coat: £95
Interview being changed to a phone interview because of snow: Priceless


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## Throbbing Angel (Feb 28, 2018)

Oh man


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 28, 2018)

It's kinda how my week is going. Don't even want to say how bad my day was and what happened


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 28, 2018)

In summary. MH getting v bad


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 28, 2018)

(((Mumbles274)))


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 28, 2018)




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## equationgirl (Feb 28, 2018)

Sorry to hear that Mumbles274 pm me if you'd prefer to talk in private.


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## Mumbles274 (Feb 28, 2018)

Thanks equationgirl bit too done in right now but thanks for offer x


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## stethoscope (Feb 28, 2018)

(((Mumbles))) x


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## equationgirl (Feb 28, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Thanks equationgirl bit too done in right now but thanks for offer x


No worries, just know you're not alone. Look after yourself.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 2, 2018)

Suit: £230
Shoes: £50
Watch: £50
Coat: £95
Interview being changed to a phone interview because of the snow but getting the job anyway!!!!!: Priceless


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## Sue (Mar 2, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Suit: £230
> Shoes: £50
> Watch: £50
> Coat: £95
> Interview being changed to a phone interview because of the snow but getting the job anyway!!!!!: Priceless


Great news! I'd keep it dark though in case they try any jiggery pockery with your redundancy pay...


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 2, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Interview being changed to a phone interview because of the snow but getting the job anyway!!!!!: Priceless





are you going to manage to stay with current place long enough to get redundancy pay, or is new place wanting you to start sooner?


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## MickiQ (Mar 2, 2018)

Sue said:


> Great news! I'd keep it dark though in case they try any jiggery pockery with your redundancy pay...


That's fantastic, there is no obligation for you to say anything to your current employer so just take the money and leave gracefully.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 2, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Suit: £230
> Shoes: £50
> Watch: £50
> Coat: £95
> Interview being changed to a phone interview because of the snow but getting the job anyway!!!!!: Priceless



So pleased for you.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 2, 2018)

They want me asap.  Going to stay quiet and push for them to get rid of me 

If not will use 'time off to look for work' rules and will be able to start i hope


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## MickiQ (Mar 2, 2018)

Once you've had your third interview and signed on the dotted line then it's legally binding and they can't change their mind or mess you about, so you could tell them then you have a new job waiting for you.
You can ask them about the date, It's not in their interests or yours to make you sit and stare blankly at the wall for your notice period.


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## cybershot (Mar 2, 2018)

Congrats, but as already muted, tread carefully with start dates and revealing too much. If they haven't asked about notice period, give something daft like 3 months, which wouldn't be uncommon for the amount of time you've worked at your current place. Get that redundancy money and walk straight into new job and happy days.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 2, 2018)

They've made an offer of pay in lieu of notice as well as redundancy so hoping that if vol redundancy gets accepted i can get things moving asap


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## iona (Mar 2, 2018)

Brilliant news Mumbles274!


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## MickiQ (Mar 2, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> They've made an offer of pay in lieu of notice as well as redundancy so hoping that if vol redundancy gets accepted i can get things moving asap


That's a good sign, pay in lieu of notice generally means that your contract specifies a reasonable period so they will probably offer you a choice of 3 months pay (unfortunately taxable) in hand providing you go forewith or "gardening leave" where you sit at home for 3 months still being paid. If that's the case go for the first and you might very well be out by the end of March at latest, If you have holidays available to take rather than let them buy them out you could take them at the end of your notice and get out a bit earlier.


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## lamb1979 (Mar 2, 2018)

This makes me happy  finally out if that toxic environment... onwards and upwards.. ❤❤❤


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## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2018)

Nice one Mumbles274 I suspect they'll want you off the books as soon as possible (as it suits their purposes) so will pay up.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 3, 2018)

Feel like i missed out wearing my new suit.. So put it on for fun


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## equationgirl (Mar 3, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Feel like i missed out wearing my new suit.. So put it on for fun
> 
> View attachment 129209


Great suit!


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 3, 2018)

any non compete clauses? I had one I thought was unenforceable but was advised it likely was- had to go cap in hand to the old company and ask them not to get on my case as i wasnt technically competing, just got an unrelated role at one of their clients


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## JimW (Mar 4, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> Feel like i missed out wearing my new suit.. So put it on for fun
> 
> View attachment 129209


Worn out for the celebratory drinks too, shurely? Well done, mate.


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## equationgirl (Mar 4, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> any non compete clauses? I had one I thought was unenforceable but was advised it likely was- had to go cap in hand to the old company and ask them not to get on my case as i wasnt technically competing, just got an unrelated role at one of their clients


As it is a redundancy situation it would be pretty shitty of them to invoke any non-compete clause.


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## Sue (Mar 4, 2018)

Can't remember the full details as it was a long time ago, but when I lost my job due to the company I was working for going into receivership, I didn't get my contractual notice paid because I found a new (short-term contract) job within my notice period.

This was the government scheme and really pissed me off as i'd just lost my job, didn't get my full pay (it was just before pay day and we got the statutory amount rather than what we were owed) and then that. (Other money owed -- for holiday pay iirc -- was paid years later due to legal stuff and then at 6p in the pound.)


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 4, 2018)

Yep but it happened to me. I did get more than stat though.


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## MickiQ (Mar 4, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> As it is a redundancy situation it would be pretty shitty of them to invoke any non-compete clause.


I don't think they can even if there is one, Making someone redundant they're effectively declaring the job is no longer necessary, no tribunal is going to believe that someone can then be banned from doing an unnecessary job.
Besides non-compete clauses are very rare even in the private sector and since based on what mumbles has said about his job, I guess he works in the public sector.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 4, 2018)

Yeah, pretty sure they don't have one


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 4, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I don't think they can even if there is one, Making someone redundant they're effectively declaring the job is no longer necessary, no tribunal is going to believe that someone can then be banned from doing an unnecessary job.
> Besides non-compete clauses are very rare even in the private sector and since based on what mumbles has said about his job, I guess he works in the public sector.



they can enforce it privately and i know of a couple of people who have had issues with this, dependent on the industry of course- as incongruent as it seems.i ran my fuck off agreement past my brief and he advised that it isnt unheard of. Public Services are not as tight on this , otherwise we would not have seen the mass exodus of council employees into property development eg Southwark Council and the elephant programme for eg.. needs to be case by case basis and how wide ranging the non compete is worded. anyway, doesnt seem to be one so thats great mumbles


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## equationgirl (Mar 4, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> I don't think they can even if there is one, Making someone redundant they're effectively declaring the job is no longer necessary, no tribunal is going to believe that someone can then be banned from doing an unnecessary job.
> Besides non-compete clauses are very rare even in the private sector and since based on what mumbles has said about his job, I guess he works in the public sector.


Actually they're not that rare in the private sector. Non-compete clauses are commonly used where people have access to client or customer information, such as lawyers, recruitment consultants or sales roles. But they must be properly constructed to be useful or enforceable. 

They pop up in case law from time to time, and there have been a few threads on here about them over the years.


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## MickiQ (Mar 4, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> they can enforce it privately and i know of a couple of people who have had issues with this, dependent on the industry of course- as incongruent as it seems.i ran my fuck off agreement past my brief and he advised that it isnt unheard of. Public Services are not as tight on this , otherwise we would not have seen the mass exodus of council employees into property development eg Southwark Council and the elephant programme for eg.. needs to be case by case basis and how wide ranging the non compete is worded. anyway, doesnt seem to be one so thats great mumbles


People leaving the council to work in property development wouldn't be competition since nothing actually competes against the council or the wasters in Parliament, the greatest irony is that this is the one thing that really does need to be stopped.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 4, 2018)

you could put whatever you wanted in the agreement - suppliers/ partners / upstream /downstream - whatever, but its not seen as the done thing in either national or local Government to do this. I know someone who went from civil servant  drone involved in bandwidth autions to head of liaison at a bandwidth auction winner within a month of the end of the actions. on 200K PA. sickening proto corruption


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 5, 2018)

I got redundancy 

I also said i don't see the point in working out any notice till the end of the month as the relationship with them is so poor after how they have treated me and they agreed. So I've got 2 weeks off till my new job starts


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## cybershot (Mar 5, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> I got redundancy
> 
> I also said i don't see the point in working out any notice till the end of the month as the relationship with them is so poor after how they have treated me and they agreed. So I've got 2 weeks off till my new job starts



Bossed it. Now don't get convinced that you need a new kitchen! 

Oh, and get everything in writing asap!


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 5, 2018)

cybershot said:


> Bossed it. Now don't get convinced that you need a new kitchen!
> 
> Oh, and get everything in writing asap!


Er.. Was in the process of getting one anyway!!! Got a fitter coming to do final survey later.. Had been put on hold for last couple of weeks.. On the never never though so wont be spending redundancy on it!


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## StoneRoad (Mar 5, 2018)

Pleased with your news Mumbles274 
Hope the new place is better ...


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## marty21 (Mar 5, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> I got redundancy
> 
> I also said i don't see the point in working out any notice till the end of the month as the relationship with them is so poor after how they have treated me and they agreed. So I've got 2 weeks off till my new job starts


Result!


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## MickiQ (Mar 5, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> I got redundancy
> 
> I also said i don't see the point in working out any notice till the end of the month as the relationship with them is so poor after how they have treated me and they agreed. So I've got 2 weeks off till my new job starts


So a new job, 2 weeks off and £15K, you haven't even really wasted the money you spent on your suit since there will be other times you can wear it. Strikes me you've come out ahead in the end, very pleased for you.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 5, 2018)

Congratulations @Mumbles, what a fantastic result, so pleased for you.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 5, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> So a new job, 2 weeks off and £15K, you haven't even really wasted the money you spent on your suit since there will be other times you can wear it. Strikes me you've come out ahead in the end, very pleased for you.


Pretty much sums it up yes!!

I left in no doubt that a large part of the stress I've felt there over the recent past is down to bullying by the 2 managers involved today. They had been claiming a 'new regime' since a new provider last year but in the final analysis it was same old same old and I kept calling them out on it.. I hadn't had line management since October and when I called my manager shit last week.. They tell me today I spoke out of line!!! I was having to chase up about an absence review after hitting a trigger point!!! And the team leader that will stay and go for the job... A micro managing bully, which i raised over and over again and they ignore.

But let us remember, there are clients' lives in the hands of these people. Recovery workers who are bullied and intimidated by spreadsheets and file audits ( Ive never done a file audit on a staff member), workers that have no capacity to contain or help complex probelms because they feel so shit about themselves, and managers that have only have one way to manage.  On a performance spectrum that is unachievable and arbitary. Made up time frames for pieces of work and naming and shaming when not done.

People die because these services fail them, people fail to recover or make any sustainable change and it's not for the want of a few people still trying

So glad to be out of there and on terms that work in my favour.


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## 8115 (Mar 5, 2018)

Only half joking, what's the secret to getting a new job so fast? You are like the Obi Wan of jobs and I want a piece of it.


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## Voley (Mar 5, 2018)

Well played Mumbles274. Really pleased for you, mate. I hope your next set of managers are more deserving of someone as obviously committed as yourself.


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 5, 2018)

8115 said:


> Only half joking, what's the secret to getting a new job so fast? You are like the Obi Wan of jobs and I want a piece of it.


I really dont know!!! I applied for a grand total of 1 job, got an interview, got the job. I'm generally pretty unassuming and suffer a lot of self doubt in general but if you allow me one dalliance with that... I'm awesome, very good at my job and know my stuff. I have been told Im very good in interviews too. I researched this one quite thoroughly, various aspects of the role, the curriculum of the training part and asked someone in the role already what kind of questions they asked... So had an answer for one specific question that would catch many people out. ( what CBT book are you reading, Im reading Depression, causes and treatmemt)


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 5, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> I got redundancy
> 
> I also said i don't see the point in working out any notice till the end of the month as the relationship with them is so poor after how they have treated me and they agreed. So I've got 2 weeks off till my new job starts


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 5, 2018)

I actually got escorted off the premises!! They don't like me. They like it even less what I've got to say about them


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## Chilli.s (Mar 5, 2018)

Good news well done.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 5, 2018)

Mumbles274 said:


> I actually got escorted off the premises!! They don't like me. They like it even less what I've got to say about them


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 5, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


ha ha! I am that footnote and proud to be so!!


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 5, 2018)

umm...   is the new job subject to references?


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## equationgirl (Mar 6, 2018)

Hope everything works out for you Mumbles274


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 6, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> umm...   is the new job subject to references?


I have people there that will give me a reference. Spoke to one of the doctors I've worked with for years, the guy that escorted me out would also do it, we get on well and he found it funny id upset them that much!


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## Wilf (Mar 6, 2018)

What a great thread! Started off reading it and was preparing the huggy (((...)))) things and then read on! Well done Mumbles, Victory is Yours!   Oh, go on have some anyway ((((MUMBLES!))))


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## Mumbles274 (May 4, 2018)

As a little post script to this thread. I saw my first CBT clients today, my third is next week. My caseload will be 6 a week for the first term. University is full on (2 days a week) but just what I need. I treated myself to a 1 year old Fiat 500s for my longer drive to work so am not even finding the travel that hard.. I actually look forward to it!


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## Mumbles274 (May 4, 2018)

The bad boy


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