# Police use pepper spray on UK Uncut



## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere http://http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/01/30/three-people-in-hospital-as-police-use-pepper-spray-at-ukuncut-protests/here


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## editor (Jan 30, 2011)

> Eye witness accounts for the nationwide UKuncut protests today say that the police use pepper spray on peaceful protesters in London.
> 
> Around 3pm outside Boots on Oxford Street today, a female activist tried to push a leaflet through the closed door of Boots explaining the details of Boots’ tax avoidance to the staff.
> 
> ...



Fixed link: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/0...-police-use-pepper-spray-at-ukuncut-protests/

Photos: http://cliffhide.blogspot.com/2011/01/ukuncut-turn-boots-in-makeshift.html


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

Officer CW2440 also managed to spray himself - serves the wanker right!







http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/pres...ndemns-political-policing-at-peaceful-protest


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

A bit much to claim that one PC using CS on a group of protestors in London (who were trying to de-arrest someone, or at least thats how the article reads) is somehow equivalent to the deaths at least fifty people in Cairo, never mind that the one PC was doing so at Cameron's behest.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

Who's saying it's equivalent? Fuckin' far from it!


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Who's saying it's equivalent? Fuckin' far from it!



Its from the OP, and the Ed's quote:



> Way to go Cameron! CS gas being used on peaceful protesters. Is thus [sic] fucking Cairo?


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## bi0boy (Jan 30, 2011)

Reminds me of a protest I was at few years ago where the police were pushing people towards a fence. A protester stridently exclaimed over and over that it was "worse than Hillsborough" although no one was injured.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Reminds me of a protest I was at few years ago where the police were pushing people towards a fence. A protester stridently exclaimed over and over that it was "worse than Hillsborough" although no one was injured.


 
Maybe they were using exaggeration to stop the police action? Just a thought eh?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

I picked this up from twitter and the weblink was the first I found referring to it. Of course it's not the same as Cairo - does that make it right?


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## shaman75 (Jan 30, 2011)

Someone at Boots wasn't too happy about it, although the @BootsMealDeal account has been deleted now.


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## bi0boy (Jan 30, 2011)

Making invalid comparisons tends to invoke ridicule rather than sympathy.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> I picked this up from twitter and the weblink was the first I found referring to it. Of course it's not the same as Cairo - does that make it right?


 
I dunno, though if it _was_ twenty protestors trying to de-arrest someone from one or two PCs then I can understand why the CS was used, and why it was used against so many people.  They are trained to do that, you know.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

I didn't - I pointed out that the police had used pepper spray on UK Uncut protesters and posted the first link I found. Is that okay?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

One or two PCs? Oxford Street? You're having a giraffe.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Making invalid comparisons tends to invoke ridicule rather than sympathy.


 
To Mr Logic maybe. 

Maybe the police are sometimes (context dependent of course) sensitive to stuff like that post-hillsborough and back off - i've seen it happen. What's the symbol for emotion in your world?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Its from the OP, and the Ed's quote:


 It's not in my OP - it's one person quoted in the link.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> One or two PCs? Oxford Street? You're having a giraffe.


 
er - the (link in the) OP states:



> Around 3pm outside Boots on Oxford Street today, a female activist tried to push a leaflet through the closed door of Boots explaining the details of Boots’ tax avoidance to the staff.
> 
> *A police officer then arrested the individual for “criminal damage”.*
> 
> Around 20 people tried to help the female being arrested and 10 were subsequently pepper-sprayed.



There may have been officers covering the Boots store, though the picture that was here recently showed two officers, and the one that was identified as having used the spray was both local and didnt have his high visibility jacket on - which might suggest that he wasnt part of any cover for the store.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> It's not in my OP - it's one person quoted in the link.


 
The link was in your OP.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Police guidance on the use of incapacitant spray. (PDF) http://http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2009/200905UNGIS01.pdf


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> The link was in your OP.



So should I have posted without a link or explained that the opinions of one person in the link posted were not mine?


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## revlon (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> I dunno, though if it _was_ twenty protestors trying to de-arrest someone from one or two PCs then I can understand why the CS was used, and why it was used against so many people.  They are trained to do that, you know.


 
so they're doing blind panic and escalation exercises at hendon now? 

I like how they're using the term 'political policing'.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> So should I have posted without a link or explained that the opinions of one person in the link posted were not mine?


 
No, but where did I claim you had said such things?  The part I was talking about was quite clearly from the OP (or rather the link in the OP), given that I quoted it again.




			
				revlon said:
			
		

> so they're doing blind panic and escalation exercises at hendon now?



That panic is perhaps explainable if it was 20 vs 1 or 2, and the use of CS against more than one person is something that officers are currently trained to do.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> er - the (link in the) OP states:
> 
> 
> 
> There may have been officers covering the Boots store, though the picture that was here recently showed two officers, and the one that was identified as having used the spray was both local and didnt have his high visibility jacket on - which might suggest that he wasnt part of any cover for the store.


 
I count more here http://www.demotix.com/news/574155/tax-exemption-protest-boots-london


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> I count more here http://www.demotix.com/news/574155/tax-exemption-protest-boots-london


 
At least two of those (the two female officers on the road) are PCSOs, and there only look to be 3 or 4 PCs on the other side, against the storefront, with one or two to the side.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Oh go polish your truncheon.


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## revlon (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> No, but where did I claim you had said such things?  The part I was talking about was quite clearly from the OP (or rather the link in the OP), given that I quoted it again.
> 
> 
> 
> That panic is perhaps explainable if it was 20 vs 1 or 2, and the use of CS against more than one person is something that officers are currently trained to do.


 
come on, look at the photos, they're hardly west ham at millwall are they. The copper instead of, as he would have been trained, using his better judgement and let the person go, bottled it and went in all spray blazing. 

You know he's going to get stick in the canteen for not being able to handle_ a bunch of fucking students_


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> That panic is perhaps explainable if it was 20 vs 1 or 2, and the use of CS against more than one person is something that officers are currently trained to do.


 yeh to rile others so the cops get a pasting?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

revlon said:


> come on, look at the photos, they're hardly west ham at millwall are they. The copper instead of, as he would have been trained, using his better judgement and let the person go, bottled it and went in all spray blazing.
> 
> You know he's going to get stick in the canteen for not being able to handle_ a bunch of fucking students_


 
If it was West Ham vs Millwall then that officer would probably never have been in the position that he was - he was as good as by himself, up against closed doors, with nowhere to go if things did become violent.  As for "using his better judgement", that is a very easy thing to say when it is not you having to make that decision.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh to rile others so the cops get a pasting?


 
Did they get a pasting here, Pickmans?


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> If it was West Ham vs Millwall then that officer would probably never have been in the position that he was - he was as good as by himself, up against closed doors, with nowhere to go if things did become violent.  As for "using his better judgement", that is a very easy thing to say when it is not you having to make that decision.


 
But...it's a bunch of fucking students...


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Did they get a pasting here, Pickmans?


 
i'm just saying it sounds rather foolish to raise the stakes by gassing some people when there is no chance that everyone will be incapacitated and every chance that people will be angrier afterwards in the context of a peaceful demonstration. if nothing untoward subsequently happened to the cops, i think it's more due to the supine nature of the protesters than the good judgement of the police.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> But...it's a bunch of fucking students...


 
So you are being Mr. Logic now?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm just saying it sounds rather foolish to raise the stakes by gassing some people when there is no chance that everyone will be incapacitated and every chance that people will be angrier afterwards in the context of a peaceful demonstration. if nothing untoward subsequently happened to the cops, i think it's more due to the supine nature of the protesters than the good judgement of the police.


 
Perhaps, though given the context that this apparently happened in (the 20 people helping the person who had been arrested), it is a bit much to claim at that point that it was a peaceful demo.  Its not as if the PC just CS'd the crowd randomly whilst they were sat there.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though given the context that this apparently happened in (the 20 people helping the person who had been arrested), it is a bit much to claim at that point that it was a peaceful demo.  Its not as if the PC just CS'd the crowd randomly whilst they were sat there.


 
again, arresting someone for criminal damage for trying to insert a leaflet between or under a door seems to me to be a provocative act.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

**


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> again, arresting someone for criminal damage for trying to insert a leaflet between or under a door seems to me to be a provocative act.


 
if that is what happened then it might be


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Bottom line - peaceful protest outside Boots
One protester tries to push a leaflet through the door
PC CW2440 arrests her for Criminal Damage (wtf?)
Protesters try to de-arrest her - non violently afaik
PC CW2440 sprays them, and himself,  with CS gas (or another gas idk)

Seems to me that PC CW2440 went totally overboard.

The police close ranks and start making excuses. Thing is, this sort of behaviour turns a lot of decent people against the police.
Accept you have some wronguns and pension them off.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> So you are being Mr. Logic now?


 
What's the difference between training and citizens? Nothing? Something? What dos training teach you? (or is supposed to)


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What's the difference between training and citizens? Nothing? Something? What dos training teach you? (or is supposed to)



This post makes even less sense than your approval of comparisons being drawn between minor stuff at demos and disasters where many people die does.  

With regards to this, once the PC has made the decision to arrest someone then it is perhaps understandable that when 20 people decide to help the person being arrested, that he might decide to CS the people trying to assist - especially when (from the pictures above) he has nowhere else to go, a small number of colleagues to assist him and no other options apart from to let the person go (which is an option, but one that isnt consequence free).


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

i was under the impression that pcsos weren't supposed to be involved in public order policing. indeed, there was a report in one of the now defunct free papers several years back that pcsos in london were not allowed to touch people.


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## revlon (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> If it was West Ham vs Millwall then that officer would probably never have been in the position that he was - he was as good as by himself, up against closed doors, with nowhere to go if things did become violent.  As for "using his better judgement", that is a very easy thing to say when it is not you having to make that decision.


 
and yet millbank when the numbers and hostility was infinitely more serious, not one pepper spray casualty.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

PC CW2440 decided to arrest a woman for criminal damage for the heinous crime of putting a leaflet through a door. He provoked the situation but still you make excuses . Is he your lodge master by any chance?


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## smokedout (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> again, arresting someone for criminal damage for trying to insert a leaflet between or under a door seems to me to be a provocative act.


 
possibly even an illegal one


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> If it was West Ham vs Millwall then that officer would probably never have been in the position that he was - he was as good as by himself, up against closed doors, with nowhere to go if things did become violent.  As for "using his better judgement", that is a very easy thing to say when it is not you having to make that decision.


 
is he a level 3 officer? i think he is - especially if the best people with him are pseudoplod pcsos. so he wouldn't have even attended a west ham millwall match, he'd have been tucked up in bed with his cocoa.


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## revlon (Jan 30, 2011)

_i feared for my personal safety_


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

revlon said:


> _i feared for my personal safety_



They might have hugged him to death.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> This post makes even less sense than your approval of comparisons being drawn between minor stuff at demos and disasters where many people die does.
> 
> With regards to this, once the PC has made the decision to arrest someone then it is perhaps understandable that when 20 people decide to help the person being arrested, that he might decide to CS the people trying to assist - especially when (from the pictures above) he has nowhere else to go, a small number of colleagues to assist him and no other options apart from to let the person go (which is an option, but one that isnt consequence free).



It makes perfect sense. A person untrained and unexperienced in stressful or aggressive environment shouting out something logically invalid does not equal someone who _is_ trained and experienced in stressful or aggressive environments losing their head and harming people as a course of action.


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## sherpa (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> he was as good as by himself, up against closed doors, with nowhere to go *if* things did become violent.



Catch a hold of yourself, really!




			
				agricola said:
			
		

> As for "using his better judgement", that is a very easy thing to say when it is not you having to make that decision.



He got over-excited, responded to the adrenalin rush and made a poor call......


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

revlon said:


> and yet millbank when the numbers and hostility was infinitely more serious, not one pepper spray casualty.


 
Not one pepper spray casualty in this either.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Apparently he has previous

http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/01/30/protesters-sprayed-as-hugh-orde-advocates-extreme-tactics/


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Not one pepper spray casualty in this either.



Apart from the three who were taken to hospital


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## sherpa (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Not one pepper spray casualty in this either.



Eh?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Apparently he has previous
> 
> http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/01/30/protesters-sprayed-as-hugh-orde-advocates-extreme-tactics/


 
i think that's talking about the same incident.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It makes perfect sense. A person untrained and unexperienced in stressful or aggressive environment shouting out something logically invalid does not equal someone who _is_ trained and experienced in stressful or aggressive environments losing their head and harming people as a course of action.


 
Thats not what you initially stated though, indeed you hoped that someone making such a massively inaccurate comparison would persuade the police to change what they were doing:



> Maybe the police are sometimes (context dependent of course) sensitive to stuff like that post-hillsborough and back off - i've seen it happen.



As for this, surely even you can see that one PC being faced with twenty people trying to help the person he has detained might think he was about to be attacked and take steps to prevent it?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Apart from the three who were taken to hospital



Who would have been sprayed with CS.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Not one pepper spray casualty in this either.


 
your claim that he missed all the people he wanted to spray is at odds with accounts of the incident.


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## sherpa (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Apparently he has previous



Practice makes perfect........

I hope his eyes fall out


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think that's talking about the same incident.



"One of the officers accused of spraying protesters, CW2440, has also been accused of trying to incite violence at UKUncut protests on 15 January 2011".


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> your claim that he missed all the people he wanted to spray is at odds with accounts of the incident.


 
And where do I claim that, Pickmans?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Who would have been sprayed with CS.


 
Sophist


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> And where do I claim that, Pickmans?


 
"not one pepper spray casualty in this case either"

it's hard to see what else you mean apart from no one was actually sprayed.


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## sherpa (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Who would have been sprayed with CS.


 
Ah well, that's infinitely preferable ey?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> "One of the officers accused of spraying protesters, CW2440, has also been accused of trying to incite violence at UKUncut protests on 15 January 2011".


 
ah  read in haste, repent at leisure


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> "not one pepper spray casualty in this case either"


 
And there wasnt, they would have been sprayed with CS.  To take the thread back to the Millbank issue that was raised, yes noone was injured by spray there but a lot of people - protestors and cops - were injured by other means.


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## revlon (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> And there wasnt, they would have been sprayed with CS.  To take the thread back to the Millbank issue that was raised, yes noone was injured by spray there but a lot of people - protestors and cops - were injured by other means.


 
baton blows to the head?


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## OneStrike (Jan 30, 2011)

There is footage of the scene here,  http://fforphilistine.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/uk-uncut-a-failure-in-civil-policing/


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> And there wasnt, they would have been sprayed with CS.  To take the thread back to the Millbank issue that was raised, yes noone was injured by spray there but a lot of people - protestors and cops - were injured by other means.


 
that's a pedant point if ever i saw one. to keep this thread about the incident under discussion, it's irresponsible to send out a poorly trained officer - as CW2440 appears to be - acting on his own initiative.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

No wonder he crapped himself  - see video

http://fforphilistine.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/uk-uncut-a-failure-in-civil-policing/

(For the benefit of the plod that was sarcasm)


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## sherpa (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> they would have been sprayed with CS.



Ah, so much better than pepper spray. In fact I'd go so far as to say it was borderline enjoyable. Probably on a par with with poking yourself in the eyes, repeatedly, with a stick dipped in paint stripper.

Do you have any idea how daft you sound?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

"saw at least 7 people who had been sprayed in the eyes including a journalist, with three men particularly badly affected. One protesters had contact lenses in, which reacted with the spray. If you’ve never been tear-gassed before, it’s horrific. You can’t see, you’re in extreme amounts of pain, and massively panicked by the fact that you have no clue where you are, or who is around you. I called an ambulance, who confirmed they’d be there as soon as possible. At this point, three police officers with slightly different uniforms arrived at the scene: Legal Observers later told me they were Diplomatic Police, and definitely had tasers, though may also have been armed. Boots staff were shocked by the scenes, and an optician and first aid team inside offered to help those injured. The ambulance arrived soon afterwards, and took the three worst affected inside, initially thinking they could treat them in the ambulance. After 15 minutes, they confirmed they’d be taking them to hospital. A police officer then started speaking to us, informing us of how to make a complaint, asked us if we had the contact details of those injured then told us the number of the officer who’d used CS gas. Another officer later came over to a legal observer I was talking to and confirmed that Officer CW2440 had been the one to use gas on the protesters. I’ve never seen police officers offer up this type of information before, though am happy to be corrected." 
http://fforphilistine.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/uk-uncut-a-failure-in-civil-policing/


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

deleted


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

revlon said:


> baton blows to the head?


 
Amongst other things.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Amongst other things.


 
baton blows to the torso?

shield blows?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

sherpa said:


> Ah, so much better than pepper spray. In fact I'd go so far as to say it was borderline enjoyable. Probably on a par with with poking yourself in the eyes, repeatedly, with a stick dipped in paint stripper.
> 
> Do you have any idea how daft you sound?


 
I think you misunderstand - utterly - the point.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> baton blows to the torso?
> 
> shield blows?


 
Being hit over the head by protestors, having a fire extinguisher thrown off a roof at you, that sort of thing.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that's a pedant point if ever i saw one. to keep this thread about the incident under discussion, it's irresponsible to send out a poorly trained officer - as CW2440 appears to be - acting on his own initiative.



And what evidence do you have of any of that?  Or is your reading of something on the internet enough?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Being hit over the head by protestors, having a fire extinguisher thrown off a roof at you, that sort of thing.


 
how many people were injured by having fire extinguishers thrown at them?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola is simply trying to disrail this thread which is about a violent cop attacking peaceful protesters


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> And what evidence do you have of any of that?  Or is your reading of something on the internet enough?


 
are you suggesting he was ordered to use the spray?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> are you suggesting he was ordered to use the spray?


 
According to the a quote in the OP, this CSing apparently took place at Cameron's behest....




			
				HST said:
			
		

> agricola is simply trying to disrail this thread which is about a violent cop attacking peaceful protesters



Explaining why something might have occured is derailing a thread now?  You need to be on urban more.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

"Another officer later came over to a legal observer I was talking to and confirmed that Officer CW2440 had been the one to use gas on the protesters. I’ve never seen police officers offer up this type of information before, though am happy to be corrected."
http://fforphilistine.wordpress.com/...ivil-policing/


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola;11472422]According to the a quote in the OP said:


> Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere http://http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/01/30/three-people-in-hospital-as-police-use-pepper-spray-at-ukuncut-protests/here


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> how many people were injured by having fire extinguishers thrown at them?


 
One?  IIRC it hit someone in the knees, probably after it had hit the ground though.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there is no quote in the op:


 
You know that text in blue means a link, dont you?


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> According to the a quote in the OP, this CSing apparently took place at Cameron's behest....
> 
> 
> 
> Explaining why something might have occured is derailing a thread now?  You need to be on urban more.


 
The Met don't pay me to be here - oh and use spellchecker


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> One?  IIRC it hit someone in the knees, probably after it had hit the ground though.


 i would be interested to any evidence you have that it did hit someone.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> You know that text in blue means a link, dont you?


 
yes. and you know what a quote is?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> The Met don't pay me to be here - oh and use spellchecker



Now who is trying to "disrail" the thread?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. and you know what a quote is?


 
Yes, in fact here is an example, from that very link in the OP, no less!



> Way to go Cameron! CS gas being used on peaceful protesters. Is thus [sic] fucking Cairo?






			
				Pickman's Model said:
			
		

> i would be interested to any evidence you have that it did hit someone.



It is mentioned here.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Not me. It's about political policing and use of excessive force by the police on a non-violent demo.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Yes, in fact here is an example, from that very link in the OP, no less!
> 
> It is mentioned here.


from that article:





> Senior officers said *it narrowly missed injuring* two territorial support group officers, brushing down the back of one and hitting the knees of another.


 for fuck's sake, i always thought you were a cut above detective-boy but now i see there's a certain dishonesty in your approach too.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Note me mate - it's about police use of excessive force  - it's about political policing.


 
Note me?  Is your spellchecker not working as well, then?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> from that article: for fuck's sake, i always thought you were a cut above detective-boy but now i see there's a certain dishonesty in your approach too.


 
Pickmans - you asked for info that it had *hit* someone.  I gave you some, which states someone was hit in the knees.  How is that dishonest?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Pickmans - you asked for info that it had *hit* someone.  I gave you some, which states someone was hit in the knees.  How is that dishonest?


 
you claimed it injured them. according to the telegraph it didn't. there's the dishonesty, in your original claim:





Pickman's model][QUOTE=agricola said:


> Being hit over the head by protestors, having a fire extinguisher thrown off a roof at you, that sort of thing.


 
how many people were injured by having fire extinguishers thrown at them?[/quote]


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you claimed it injured them. according to the telegraph it didn't. there's the dishonesty, in your original claim.


 
And where did I claim anyone was injured by being hit by a fire extinguisher?  I said it had hit one person in the knees, which it did according to that link (edit:  and even that one had a question mark after it)


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> from that article: for fuck's sake, i always thought you were a cut above detective-boy but now i see there's a certain dishonesty in your approach too.



Beyond dishonesty - this is high level bs/spinning - we should be honoured.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> And there wasnt, they would have been sprayed with CS.  To take the thread back to the Millbank issue that was raised, yes noone was injured by spray there but a lot of people - protestors and cops - were injured by other means.


 


revlon said:


> baton blows to the head?


 


agricola said:


> Amongst other things.


 


Pickman's model said:


> baton blows to the torso?
> 
> shield blows?


 


agricola said:


> Being hit over the head by protestors, having a fire extinguisher thrown off a roof at you, that sort of thing.


 

here's the sequence of posts, agricola. it's clear what's under discussion as it's clear you claim that people were injured by having a fire extinguisher thrown off a roof at them.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> here's the sequence of posts, agricola. it's clear what's under discussion as it's clear you claim that people were injured by having a fire extinguisher thrown off a roof at them.


 
Good job in missing out the rest of that sequence, Pickmans.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

you asked where you'd claimed people had been injured by a falling fire extinguisher:





> And where did I claim anyone was injured by being hit by a fire extinguisher?


 i've shown you.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

it's all gone quiet 

44,500


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you asked where you'd claimed people had been injured by a falling fire extinguisher: i've shown you.


 
No, you have done your usual thing of presenting a load of what you consider to be evidence, except those parts which dont back your case.  I say your usual thing, but of course your usual thing is to run with some pedantic item for pages and pages until a thread gets locked, not that it stops you pointing out pedantry in others, of course.  Back to the thread though - what you missed was this bit:




			
				Pickman's model said:
			
		

> how many people were injured by having fire extinguishers thrown at them?






			
				agricola said:
			
		

> One? IIRC it hit someone in the knees, probably after it had hit the ground though.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

Sooo, was it pepper.....or was it CS???

<taps watch>


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## sherpa (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> I think you misunderstand - utterly - the point.


 
So, what is the point, as you understand it? 

Thanks


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## likesfish (Jan 30, 2011)

probably bozon spray nicking somebody for posting a pamphlet stupid but probably time to go or your be nicked.
 tring  to dearrest somebody not going to happen.


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## Treacle Toes (Jan 30, 2011)

News reports are saying CS gas...


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 30, 2011)

Really, if somebody makes a clearly bullshit arrest, and other people object and try to free the person arrested, "oh what else was I meant to do I had no choice" is not a credible excuse for spraying noxious substances on them. There are plenty of other choices. Like not making bullshit arrests in the first place, for instance, that helps avoid that sort of situation.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> No, you have done your usual thing of presenting a load of what you consider to be evidence, except those parts which dont back your case.  I say your usual thing, but of course your usual thing is to run with some pedantic item for pages and pages until a thread gets locked, not that it stops you pointing out pedantry in others, of course.  Back to the thread though - what you missed was this bit:


 
what i did was ask you supplementary questions to develop a claim you made. and you posted up a link saying no one was injured, which is at odds with your claim that "one? iiirc" was injured. i've not followed your career with interest, so i hope you're not in cid.


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## likesfish (Jan 30, 2011)

trouble is if you make a bullshit arrest your not going to back down that never happens 
  trying to de arrest somebdy is not going to help matters.


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## revlon (Jan 30, 2011)

suppose the question is are pepper/cs spray authorised as a legitimate method of crowd control? 

Did he instruct people to move, and in their refusal he discharged the spray in order to get them to comply? 

If the copper didn't feel under threat from immediate unlawful violence what was the reasoning behind his use of the spray beyond a _public order situation_?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 30, 2011)

revlon said:


> suppose the question is are pepper/cs spray authorised as a legitimate method of crowd control?


 
To be honest that's not really my concern here - if it was completely against regulations and the law that would be great, an additional avenue for attack, but there could be a specific law authorising the use of pepper/CS/whatthefuckever against people defending somebody arrested for posting something through a letterbox and it wouldn't change that it was bullshit.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

The Met - Dirty bastards.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what i did was ask you supplementary questions to develop a claim you made. and you posted up a link saying no one was injured, which is at odds with your claim that "one? iiirc" was injured. i've not followed your career with interest, so i hope you're not in cid.


 
Yet more editing of what was said.  Those "supplementary questions" explained why I might have posted the fire extinguisher comment, but of course they distract from your argument (as daft as it is, I mean you have spent the best part of a page and a bit on it, thankfully we havent reached the level of your comments on the Moat thread yet though eh!) and so dont matter.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

<yawn>


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

revlon said:


> If the copper didn't feel under threat from immediate unlawful violence what was the reasoning behind his use of the spray beyond a _public order situation_?


 
If he didnt feel under threat from immediate unlawful violence from the crowd (or enough people in the crowd that it made the difference moot), then there isnt any justification for its use by him in that incident.  (edit follows)  As I said at the start of the thread, if this was an attempted de-arrest by 20 people, and if he was outnumbered and felt he had no other options, then I can understand why he might have done this.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Yet more editing of what was said.  Those "supplementary questions" explained why I might have posted the fire extinguisher comment, but of course they distract from your argument (as daft as it is, I mean you have spent the best part of a page and a bit on it, thankfully we havent reached the level of your comments on the Moat thread yet though eh!) and so dont matter.


 
we'd have moved on from this some time ago if you hadn't started pissing about and making all sorts of bullshit claims as anyone reading the thread can see. end of.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Ah but if poor widdle CW2440 did feel threatened it was okay then - is that your argument?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> we'd have moved on from this some time ago if you hadn't started pissing about and making all sorts of bullshit claims as anyone reading the thread can see. end of.


 
All sorts of bullshit claims?  Even taking your nonsense at face value, the fire extinguisher is one - what are the others?  That a quote in a link on the OP wasnt actually in the OP?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> If he didnt feel under threat from immediate unlawful violence from the crowd (or enough people in the crowd that it made the difference moot), then there isnt any justification for its use by him in that incident.  (edit follows)  As I said at the start of the thread, if this was an attempted de-arrest by 20 people, and if he was outnumbered and felt he had no other options, then I can understand why he might have done this.


 
is it, in your experience, usual for police officers to volunteer a colleague's details as reported by the blog several people have linked to in this thread?


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Ah but if poor widdle CW2440 did feel threatened it was okay then - is that your argument?


 
A bit like this dirty Met bastard -


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Ah but if poor widdle CW2440 did feel threatened it was okay then - is that your argument?


 
Did you even read that ACPO manual you posted up earlier?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> All sorts of bullshit claims?  Even taking your nonsense at face value, the fire extinguisher is one - what are the others?  That a quote in a link on the OP wasnt actually in the OP?





agricola said:


> Pickmans - you asked for info that it had *hit* someone.  I gave you some, which states someone was hit in the knees.  How is that dishonest?


 


agricola said:


> And where did I claim anyone was injured by being hit by a fire extinguisher?  I said it had hit one person in the knees, which it did according to that link (edit:  and even that one had a question mark after it)


 


agricola said:


> Good job in missing out the rest of that sequence, Pickmans.


 


agricola said:


> No, you have done your usual thing of presenting a load of what you consider to be evidence, except those parts which dont back your case.  I say your usual thing, but of course your usual thing is to run with some pedantic item for pages and pages until a thread gets locked, not that it stops you pointing out pedantry in others, of course.  Back to the thread though - what you missed was this bit:


 


agricola said:


> Yet more editing of what was said.  Those "supplementary questions" explained why I might have posted the fire extinguisher comment, but of course they distract from your argument (as daft as it is, I mean you have spent the best part of a page and a bit on it, thankfully we havent reached the level of your comments on the Moat thread yet though eh!) and so dont matter.


 
if it hadn't been for this sort of fuckwittery ^^ then we'd have moved on some time ago after we had established that NO ONE was injured by a falling fire extinguisher at millbank and returned to the fucking theme of the thread. [e2a] instead i had to deal with agricola, who i'd previously held in higher esteem, buggering about like a fucking flapping fish.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A bit like this dirty Met bastard -


 
That woman is about to draw a gun mate - be fair.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> That woman is about to draw a gun mate - be fair.


 
A carton of orange juice i think you'll find!


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A carton of orange juice i think you'll find!



oh no hippy food


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> is it, in your experience, usual for police officers to volunteer a colleague's details as reported by the blog several people have linked to in this thread?


 
That would depend on the context of that blog post - if they have volunteered the shoulder number for people wanting to complain against that officer then yes, they should have done that IMHO.  As for is it usual to do that - not really, though thats more because people usually know the shoulder number of the officer involved anyway.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if it hadn't been for this sort of fuckwittery ^^ then we'd have moved on some time ago after we had established that NO ONE was injured by a falling fire extinguisher at millbank and returned to the fucking theme of the thread. [e2a] instead i had to deal with agricola, who i'd previously held in higher esteem, buggering about like a fucking flapping fish.



_"I had to deal"_ lol.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> _"I had to deal"_ lol.


 
i pity your superiors, having to manage someone like you who seems to have difficulty facing facts. for them a policeman's lot is definitely not a happy one.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Did you even read that ACPO manual you posted up earlier?


Which part did I miss?


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i pity your superiors, having to manage someone like you who seems to have difficulty facing facts. for them a policeman's lot is definitely not a happy one.


 
Ah yes, the "facts" of someone who claimed earlier:




			
				Pickman's model said:
			
		

> your claim that he missed all the people he wanted to spray is at odds with accounts of the incident.



a person who, ironically, is the same person harping on, and on, and on, about others making dishonest claims; or at least he is when he isnt accusing them of pedantry, despite of course being a tedious pedant himself.




			
				HST said:
			
		

> Which part did I miss?



The bit that would have answered your initial question.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 30, 2011)

ffs


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

agricola said:


> Ah yes, the "facts" of someone who claimed earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> Who, ironically, is the same person harping on, and on, and on, about others making dishonest claims; or at least he is when he isnt accusing them of pedantry, despite of course being a tedious pedant himself.


you seem to be having difficulty moving on. are you set on continuing this increasingly dull spat for a page or two more? if so, you can try doing it without me.


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## HST (Jan 30, 2011)

So it's okay to spray cs gas in the faces of peaceful demonstrators if the book says so?


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## OneStrike (Jan 30, 2011)

This gassing of the protesters appears to be getting a bit of media attention, even Talksport were on about it earlier. The copper responsible will probably have to do a training refresher if the papers print details tomorrow.


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## agricola (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> So it's okay to spray cs gas in the faces of peaceful demonstrators if the book says so?


 
That is not what the book says.  Please, go and read your own link.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> That woman is about to draw a gun mate - be fair.


 han shot first


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

HST said:


> Police guidance on the use of incapacitant spray. (PDF) http://http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2009/200905UNGIS01.pdf


 
"2.5.12 Chief officers may wish to consider policies relating to possession 
of incapacitant spray at pre-planned public order events.  It should 
be noted that there are no group tactical options for its use at such 
events and therefore use will be at the discretion of individual 
officers in accordance with the overriding principle of 
reasonableness and necessity. "


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> This gassing of the protesters appears to be getting a bit of media attention, even Talksport were on about it earlier. The copper responsible will probably have to do a training refresher if the papers print details tomorrow.


 
the guardian's running with it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/30/police-cs-spray-tax-protesters


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## shaman75 (Jan 31, 2011)




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## fiannanahalba (Jan 31, 2011)

Wont be long the way things are going until the students are massacred in numbers by police lead.


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## shaman75 (Jan 31, 2011)

HST said:


> Police guidance on the use of incapacitant spray. (PDF) http://http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2009/200905UNGIS01.pdf



I note they suggest it might cause cross contamination in busy public areas and there is a section about aftercare which I can see no evidence of in the video i just posted.


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## sunnysidedown (Jan 31, 2011)

Everton aren't doing to well at the moment.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A carton of orange juice i think you'll find!


 
Contains acid though, Bish.

Will nobody think of the bacon?


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## _angel_ (Jan 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> again, arresting someone for criminal damage for trying to insert a leaflet between or under a door seems to me to be a provocative act.


 
How can posting a leaflet possibly be criminal damage?


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 31, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11370386


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## rorymac (Jan 31, 2011)

I hope folks stop hollering for other folks to pour water into their eyes .. if they had a tiny blob of lime putty in their eyes and they added water to it their eyeball would be destroyed. Hardly anyone knows that. I saw a bloke's eyeball going alight and when I tried to put water in it he gave me a right hander.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2011)

heard about this from a northampton ukncut organiser tonight. he said teargas and I was all 'what, fucking teargas cannisters' but further questions led to clarification of CS spray. Still some shameful shit, mind.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 31, 2011)

New vid - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/31/video-police-cs-spray-protesters?CMP=twt_gu


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## rorymac (Jan 31, 2011)

<collects coat>


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## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Wont be long the way things are going until the students are massacred in numbers by police lead.


 
I think it will be very long before that happens. Given that crowd control OB don't use even baton rounds as standard or in my living memory, on mainland 'troublemakers'.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2011)

I had CS gas sprayed in my face and it ain't fun. I was not posing a threat to anyone. The police subsequently dropped all charges against me.


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## revlon (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> New vid - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/31/video-police-cs-spray-protesters?CMP=twt_gu


 
 Wow. I humbly apologise. The coppers actions were very composed and very deliberate. He was surrounded by lots of other coppers, casually walks up, sprays and immediately walks away and cannister goes straight back in the pocket. 

Well executed.


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## ymu (Feb 1, 2011)

> The Acpo guidelines state that CS spray should not be used at a distance of less than one metre from the target, "unless the nature of the risk to the officer is such that this cannot be avoided".
> 
> "In such cases, officers must be prepared to justify not only their use of the spray but also their decision to use it at a distance which may cause damage to eyes due to the discharge pressure of the liquid."



IPCC gonna be busy this summer.


----------



## revlon (Feb 1, 2011)

here's another angle literally. Steps up 56 secs in.



looks like a sergeant is telling him to put it away, which he duly does.


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## ymu (Feb 1, 2011)

agricola said:


> I dunno, though if it _was_ twenty protestors trying to de-arrest someone from one or two PCs then I can understand why the CS was used, and why it was used against so many people.  They are trained to do that, you know.


 
And now that you've seen the vids?


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## shagnasty (Feb 1, 2011)

I would dearly love to see her case go to a magistrates court and hope the magistrates condem the police for wasting the courts time ,honestly what damage can be done with a leaflet possibly a massive paper cut


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## revlon (Feb 1, 2011)

given he sprayed himself, and he clearly doesn't know what he's doing (he's spraying it like a fucking perfume bottle ffs) isn't there a case of him putting other officers in danger and at risk? 

Seriosuly agricola, if you were a copper exposed to his actions wouldn't you give him a bollocking afterwards?

(after bollocking the two other coppers for a truly crap arrest).


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## agricola (Feb 1, 2011)

ymu said:


> And now that you've seen the vids?


 
The vids arent especially useful - the focus is on the officers or the person being arrested, not the crowd (and given that it is the people in the crowd's behaviour who would be relevant to any decision by that officer to use the spray, that is what you would need to see), though they to suggest that there were more officers there than the report in the OP or the photos provided earlier.  As for why it was used, the fact that it was only one PC who used it (or indeed used anything other than just shoving people away, noone seems to have their baton out) would tend to suggest that either the officer hasnt used it appropriately or only he could see something that would justify it being used, though of course there is a lot of pushing and shoving going on prior to it being used (indeed at one point prior to the CS someone is heard to say on the sideways clip "If you arrest me its going to kick off").


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 1, 2011)

Why did he do it then walk immediately away if they were a threat? He spotted someone he didn't like and got them when he thought he could get away with it.


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## agricola (Feb 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Why did he do it then walk immediately away if they were a threat? He spotted someone he didn't like and got them when he thought he could get away with it.


 
I dont know, he could have been getting out of the area with the CS in, dont forget it was stated earlier (and on that vid) he had sprayed himself as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 1, 2011)

agricola said:


> I dont know, he could have been getting out of the area with the CS in, dont forget it was stated earlier (and on that vid) he had sprayed himself as well.


 
Or, he did he wanted to and then legged it.


----------



## rorymac (Feb 1, 2011)

I don't know why they didn't steam the bastard and kick shit out of him .. all this shame on you malarky is embarrassing !


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 1, 2011)

Peaceful protests, peaceful protesters, summat that Gov 'n filth seem to have a problem with. The fuckin' cunts


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## rich! (Feb 1, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> han shot first


 
hanjanvan as Millennium Falcon?

*joins rorymac in coat queue*


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## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2011)

rorymac said:


> I don't know why they didn't steam the bastard and kick shit out of him .. all this shame on you malarky is embarrassing !


 
quite


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## turing test (Feb 15, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> quite


 
Is this how you got 44 thousand posts?


----------

