# Black Flag new issue/relaunch



## The Black Hand (Nov 13, 2007)

The contradictions in Limpcok are laughable. First they say they are beyond anarchism, now they are promoting a stereotypical anarchist magazine as the best thing since sliced bread. The old stuff about/by Lucy Parsons and Durti (no matter how excellent in their time) is the stuff of a cult and not a movement relating to everyday life.

Seriously, the picture of Mikal bakunin on the back page was a VIZ LIKE pisstake out of itself that the editors didn't even notice...   

<editor: URL removed>


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## Dubversion (Nov 13, 2007)

oh fuck off with your cross-board bitching, you fucking dullard.

if you want to argue about 'limpcok', do it there.

twat


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## The Black Hand (Nov 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> oh fuck off with your cross-board bitching, you fucking dullard.
> 
> if you want to argue about 'limpcok', do it there.
> 
> twat


  
Fuk U cok ed.


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## Kanda (Nov 13, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Fuk U cok ed.



Astounding fail at offensiveness


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Astounding fail at offensiveness



It was minimalist as the twat wasn't worth a bean.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> if you want to argue about 'limpcok', do it there.



They do not allow serious debate. The last time in the middle of a serious debate they banned me for no apparent reason and they knew I had been on that site for months. Wierdo's.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> They do not allow serious debate. The last time in the middle of a serious debate they banned me for no apparent reason and they knew I had been on that site for months. Wierdo's.



Got a link to the the thread?


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

I'd be worried if all I posted was by reference to Libcom, but I don't suppose you see it that way Attica.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 14, 2007)

Wow Dub acting like a Mod and a narcho calling him a coke head all on the same thread, great days on urban....yawn.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Wow Dub acting like a Mod and a narcho calling him a coke head all on the same thread, great days on urban....yawn.



It's like repeats of Friends.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> I'd be worried if all I posted was by reference to Libcom, but I don't suppose you see it that way Attica.



I post many things .... Remember the mayday magazine thread???  

 i despise Limpcok whose image of themselves deserves to be slapped away


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> It's like repeats of Friends.





It's true, no matter what time of day, no matter the channel there's an episode on somewhere...


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I post many things .... Remember the mayday magazine thread???
> 
> i despise Limpcok whose image of themselves deserves to be slapped away



Any particular Mayday magazine thread?


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## rich! (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> They do not allow serious debate. The last time in the middle of a serious debate they banned me for no apparent reason and they knew I had been on that site for months. Wierdo's.



Is this the kind of "serious debate" where you start with the violence against people who don't agree with you?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Got a link to the the thread?



here's the link to the thread. 


<editor: whoosh! URL begone. Now that's magic>

They banned me (Lucy Parsons) for talking politically   True. They do not like it up 'em


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

rich! said:
			
		

> Is this the kind of "serious debate" where you start with the violence against people who don't agree with you?



   Or perhaps at those who spout inane irrelevant shite?


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> here's the link to the thread.
> --
> 
> They banned me (Lucy Parsons) for talking politically   True. They do not like it up 'em



Ah - a link to the banned Lucy Parsons persona as opposed to your banned gangster or Dave D ones then. They're just so intolerant


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Ah - a link to the banned Lucy Parsons persona as opposed to your banned gangster or Dave D ones then. They're just so intolerant



Attica kinda fell for that


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Ah - a link to the banned Lucy Parsons persona as opposed to your banned gangster or Dave D ones then. They're just so intolerant


It's like posting in Nazi Germany.


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## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> They do not allow serious debate.



Those who advocate violence against their opponents forfeit the right to serious debate.  They are quite understandably mocked as clowns instead.


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> It's like posting in Nazi Germany.



(((oppressed Attica/Lucy Parsons/gangster/Dave D/ The Black Hand and the real life person that all these personas big up by way of links)))


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Any particular Mayday magazine thread?



Here's a few threads that disprove your limp assertion;

*Mayday mag:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=224189
*Anarchist conference:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=227452
*Working class bookfair:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=227785
*Strategy and tactics:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=186661
*A new Anarchist Organisation:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=214637
*Autonomous Class War definition:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=210401
*Autonomism in the UK:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=212367


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> (((oppressed Attica/Lucy Parsons/gangster/Dave D/ The Black Hand and the real life person that all these personas big up by way of links)))


Perhaps if all the above had actually turned up to the Working Class Bookfair in Durham, instead of just posting about it on the internet, there might have been a better turnout.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> They do not allow serious debate. The last time in the middle of a serious debate they banned me for no apparent reason and they knew I had been on that site for months. Wierdo's.



Oh Look. If you note the key phrase -  'the last time', that is the crucial element which you fools cannot see, and you instead prefer other irrelevant nonsense.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Oh Look. If you note the key phrase -  'the last time', that is the crucial element which you fools cannot see, and you instead prefer other irrelevant nonsense.



Weird indeed, thanks for the insight.


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

Don’t laugh at me ‘cause I’m a fool
I know it’s true, yes I’m a fool
No-one seems to care
I’d give the world to share my life with someone
Who really loves me
I see them all falling in love
But my lucky star hides up above
Someday maybe my star will smile on me
Don’t laugh at me ‘cause I’m a fool

I’m not good-looking, I’m not too smart
I may be foolish but I’ve got a heart
I love the flowers, I love the sun
But when I try to love the girls
They laugh at me and run.


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Here's a few threads that disprove your limp assertion;
> 
> *Mayday mag:*
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=224189
> ...



Fantastic - saves the effort of finding the links - all put together in one handy post folks 

^^^ read these threads


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## rich! (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Or perhaps at those who spout inane irrelevant shite?



Sorry - you're now advocating violence against people who are *off-topic*?

Have you thought of changing your name to "Godwin's Law", to save the rest of us the trouble?


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

rich! said:
			
		

> Sorry - you're now advocating violence against people who are *off-topic*?


It's the only language these bastards understand.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attica
  "Or perhaps at those who spout inane irrelevant shite?"




			
				rich! said:
			
		

> Sorry - you're now advocating violence against people who are *off-topic*?
> 
> Have you thought of changing your name to "Godwin's Law", to save the rest of us the trouble?



You clearly do not even understand plain English. Have you not noticed the QUESTION MARK at the end of what I said? It wasn't a statement so your mindless and prejeudiced political projection is just like other right wing conservative turds.


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

Twat?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> Twat?



Have you a point to your existence?


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> Twat?


Indubitably?


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Have you a point to your existence?


Yes. I adopt multiple personae on the internet, with the sole purpose of bigging up trivial events in what passes for my life.

Fuck me, I must be another one of your log-ins.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Have you a point to your existence?



Fancy justifying yours 1st?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Fantastic - saves the effort of finding the links - all put together in one handy post folks
> 
> ^^^ read these threads



  Doh!! Anybody who can use the facilities on this excellent website knew them already... you are looking rather simple here...

They read Ok truth be told...


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## editor (Nov 14, 2007)

rich! said:
			
		

> Sorry - you're now advocating violence against people who are *off-topic*?


*orders boxing gloves and shiny silky pants for the mods.

And those cool dressing gowns with 'Da Mods' embroidered on the back.


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> Yes. I adopt multiple personae on the internet, with the sole purpose of bigging up trivial events in what passes for my life.
> 
> Fuck me, I must be another one of your log-ins.



Cheer up button. At least no-one can confuse any of your internet personae with that of the revered Dave Douglass


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> Yes. I adopt multiple personae on the internet, with the sole purpose of bigging up trivial events in what passes for my life.
> 
> Fuck me, I must be another one of your log-ins.


 
Perhaps you had better get some politics and do something then. 

Those of us who do, rather than those who don't, spread good news


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## rich! (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Attica
> "Or perhaps at those who spout inane irrelevant shite?"
> 
> ...



Erm, sorry, you've been advocating violence against people - we need to know what exactly you're likely to give us a kicking for?

Disagreement, general?
Disagreement, terminological?
Disagreement, incomprehensible?
Off-topicity?
Forum management issues?
UrAtWatticaTy?

Really - make it clear to us - at what point in debate do you advocate switching from words to thuggery?


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Doh!! Anybody who can use the facilities on this excellent website knew them already... you are looking rather simple here...
> 
> They read Ok truth be told...




You'd hardly say they read otherwise, would you?

But then, you discount any opinions except your own, so talking to you at some point needs to stop being an exercise in futility and become one of taking the piss.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Children children your angst doth overflow tonight... 

You need to get a  life, get out a bit, and so on...


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Perhaps you had better get some politics and do something then.
> 
> Those of us who do, rather than those who don't, spread good news



Multiple personas = having some politics?

Look out for Adnak on a board near you soon (tm)


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Those of us who do, rather than those who don't, spread good news


You're like a cross between Buenaventura Durruti and Jesus.


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Children children your angst doth overflow tonight...
> 
> You need to get a  life, get out a bit, and so on...


Posting with your Blackberry from the barricades are you?


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> Posting with your Blackberry from the barricades are you?




Hot soup won't cut it button - what they need is a discourse in praxis.


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Hot soup won't cut it button - what they need is a discourse in praxis.


What have the poor fuckers done to deserve that?


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## rich! (Nov 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> *orders boxing gloves and shiny silky pants for the mods.
> 
> And those cool dressing gowns with 'Da Mods' embroidered on the back.



Are you going to restart the Ninja Training at "Mod Towers" again?







(and how did Crispy manage to add himself to that photo?)


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> You'd hardly say they read otherwise, would you?
> 
> But then, you discount any opinions except your own, so talking to you at some point needs to stop being an exercise in futility and become one of taking the piss.



   I could have said they read "brilliantly", "above avaerage", "poor", "shite" or anything. My comment was actually pretty middle of the road. 

I actually do count other peoples views, but not the young limpcok lambs, who huddle in corners or around tables in pubs. 

Who never do anything politically as a group, who never tie their name to any event, who call other people, who escape any responsibility or criticism by NEVER putting their 'bollocks on the line'. Till you grow up and have a political life you will be treated with the contempt you deserve. This is not new btw, my attitude towards limpcok preceeded the bookfair by some years, and many other people have got aggravated by your childish approach to politics too.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Engaging thread...


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

rich! said:
			
		

> (and how did Crispy manage to add himself to that photo?)


... and why the fuck didn't Terry Waite use his martial arts skills to avoid being taken hostage?


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## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Hot soup won't cut it button - what they need is a discourse in praxis.



I doubt that Attica has the slightest idea what "praxis" means.  I doubt that he's ever heard the word.  I believe that he is a stranger to praxis.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Engaging thread...



When the seagulls follow the trawler it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I doubt that Attica has the slightest idea what "praxis" means.  I doubt that he's ever heard the word.  I believe that he is a stranger to praxis.


   COK.


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I could have said they read "brilliantly", "above avaerage", "poor", "shite" or anything. My comment was actually pretty middle of the road.
> 
> I actually do count other peoples views, but not the young limpcok lambs, who huddle in corners or around tables in pubs.
> 
> Who never do anything politically as a group, who never tie their name to any event, who call other people, who escape any responsibility or criticism by NEVER putting their 'bollocks on the line'. Till you grow up and have a political life you will be treated with the contempt you deserve. This is not new btw, my attitude towards limpcok preceeded the bookfair by some years, and many other people have got aggravated by your childish approach to politics too.



You're making the mistake of talking to me as if I'm a 'Libcommer' again Attica. Or could it be that you'll use any thread or post as an opportunity to talk about Libcom (who you're not completely obsessed with, oh no)


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> When the seagulls follow the trawler it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.



grrrr..... Don't ever think your as popular or as bonkers profound as Cantona!!! pls, don't!!


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## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> COK.



Very well then, define "praxis" for us.  I for one doubt that you can.  I suspect that praxis and yourself are on exceptionally cool and distant terms.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Very well then, define "praxis" for us.  I for one doubt that you can.  I suspect that praxis and yourself are on exceptionally cool and distant terms.



Here's something I did t'other day.

06-11-2007, 12:35 PM  
Attica  
Autonomous class struggle   Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 2,845  

Quote:
Originally Posted by scumbalina
So thinking about doing something then doing it, that what it means? 

Attica
"Most people and so called political groups have a Non Marxist/anarchist understanding of Praxis - they keep the 2 separate, or often do theory without practice, or practice without theory, or theory which they do not test in their social democratic practice. 

It is false to see theory here, and practice over there.

It is the joining up of theory and practice in class struggle, which inevitably influences and changes political surroundings/ambiance/possibilities which necessitates the generation of new theory, which changes the quality of 'theory' and 'practice' on the move to create Praxis."


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> grrrr..... Don't ever think your as popular or as bonkers profound as Cantona!!! pls, don't!!



If the sentiment fits....


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

I reckon it's just internet posturing. Well done


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> If the sentiment fits....



Requoting shit? Gratz you


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> I reckon it's just internet posturing. Well done



Internet posturing leads to a well deserved slap in Attica world.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Internet posturing leads to a well deserved slap in Attica world.



Nah, it's funny.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Children children. You do not aggravate me at all, your lame 'pisstaking' is sooooo lame it has no legs. It's not funny, its not new, its not clever. 

What it is, is lazy conservative posting with no politics. You have NOT even answered the politics in my first post, 'that is how lame you are'.


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## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Here's something I did t'other day.
> 
> 06-11-2007, 12:35 PM
> Attica
> ...



Nonsense, rubbish, garbage and complete and utter trash in every respect.  You have simply constructed a straw man when you say that there are those who seek to maintain an abstract differentiation between theory and practice.  For is it not totally and unequivocally obvious that *all* theory has practical purport, while equally and by the same token *all* practice has theoretical implications?  And thus we see clearly and without any ambiguity whatsoever that no-one, ever, under any circumstances is remotely capable of engaging in non-practical theory or, in the same regard, non-theoretical practice neither.  "Praxis" therefore cannot in any sense be defined as the unity of theory and practice, since it is inherently and ontologically impossible to separate the two, and therefore by your foolish and simplistic definition *everything* done by anyone anywhere in the whole world would be "praxis."  The term would be all-inclusive and therefore meaningless.  And so it would seem that your grasp of "praxis" is hardly as firm as you would have the more naive among us believe would it not?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Nonsense, rubbish, garbage and complete and utter trash in every respect.  You have simply constructed a straw man when you say that there are those who seek to maintain an abstract differentiation between theory and practice.  For is it not totally and unequivocally obvious that *all* theory has practical purport, while equally and by the same token *all* practice has theoretical implications?  And thus we see clearly and without any ambiguity whatsoever that no-one, ever, under any circumstances is remotely capable of engaging in non-practical theory or, in the same regard, non-theoretical practice neither.  "Praxis" therefore cannot in any sense be defined as the unity of theory and practice, since it is inherently and ontologically impossible to separate the two, and therefore by your foolish and simplistic definition *everything* done by anyone anywhere in the whole world would be "praxis."  The term would be all-inclusive and therefore meaningless.  And so it would seem that your grasp of "praxis" is hardly as firm as you would have the more naive among us believe would it not?




No. You have not understood what I have posted. It is clear that you are the confused one.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Children children. You do not aggravate me at all, your lame 'pisstaking' is sooooo lame it has no legs. It's not funny, its not new, its not clever.
> 
> What it is, is lazy conservative posting with no politics. You have NOT even answered the politics in my first post, 'that is how lame you are'.



Do you not think this reaction is because people actually can't be arsed to engage you? Not people like you, you specifically...


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Do you not think this reaction is because people actually can't be arsed to engage you? Not people like you, you specifically...



I think it is a reflection of their lack of politics and their true essence coming out.


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## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> No. You have not understood what I have posted. It is clear that you are the confused one.



Au contraire, I beg to differ, and I do believe that you are mistaken.  It is clear that confusion sits upon you and you alone.  Confusion has in fact made his masterpiece out of your person.  Confusion thy name is Attica.  Attica and confusion are widely and correctly regarded as all but synonymous in educated circles.  Indeed so intimate is their liason that many have been tempted to posit a dialectical interpenetration between the poles of the binary "confusion" and "Attica" so that to all intents and porpoises they can be regarded as mutually definitive and thus in the final analysis ultimately inseparable as far as any kind of *real* political impact is concerned.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Au contraire, I beg to differ, and I do believe that you are mistaken.  It is clear that confusion sits upon you and you alone.  Confusion has in fact made his masterpiece out of your person.  Confusion thy name is Attica.  Attica and confusion are widely and correctly regarded as all but synonymous in educated circles.  Indeed so intimate is their liason that many have been tempted to posit a dialectical interpenetration between the poles of the binary "confusion" and "Attica" so that to all intents and porpoises they can be regarded as mutually definitive and thus in the final analysis ultimately inseparable as far as any kind of *real* political impact is concerned.


  u tork cak cok.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I think it is a reflection of their lack of politics and their true essence coming out.



I'm just pissed, skittish, no offence. You're the only fuckers posting 

Phil is best to engage you, ignore me


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Indeed so intimate is their liason that many have been tempted to posit a dialectical interpenetration between the poles of the binary "confusion" and "Attica" so that to all intents and porpoises they can be regarded as mutually definitive and thus in the final analysis ultimately inseparable as far as any kind of *real* political impact is concerned.


So, in Hegelian terms, Attica's like a dickhead version of the Beautiful Soul?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> I'm just pissed, skittish, no offence. You're the only fuckers posting
> 
> Phil is best to engage you, ignore me



Phil cok suk ma


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Au contraire, I beg to differ, and I do believe that you are mistaken.  It is clear that confusion sits upon you and you alone.  Confusion has in fact made his masterpiece out of your person.  Confusion thy name is Attica.  Attica and confusion are widely and correctly regarded as all but synonymous in educated circles.  Indeed so intimate is their liason that many have been tempted to posit a dialectical interpenetration between the poles of the binary "confusion" and "Attica" so that to all intents and *porpoises* they can be regarded as mutually definitive and thus in the final analysis ultimately inseparable as far as any kind of *real* political impact is concerned.


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## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> u tork cak cok.



And with that reduction of my puny opponent to monosyllabic illiteracy I do believe that I can declare victory and go for a well-deserved pint.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Phil cok suk ma



You degrade yourself with that response btw


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

the button said:
			
		

> So, in Hegelian terms, Attica's like a dickhead version of the Beautiful Soul?



DOrk - u gota walk the walk rather than spout da shite.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> You degrade yourself with that response btw



Hey, I do what I like. Like selling a copy of the excellent new magazine MAYDAY to Ed Emry on Sunday  Who wot where when? Those who know may like to know it was at the Historical Materialism conference at SOAS.


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Hey, I do what I like. Like selling a copy of the excellent new magazine MAYDAY to Ed Emry on Sunday  Who wot where when? Those who know may like to know it was at the Historical Materialism conference at SOAS.



I prefer Morse Code


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## the button (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Hey, I do what I like. Like selling a copy of the excellent new magazine MAYDAY to Ed Emry on Sunday  Who wot where when? Those who know may like to know it was at the Historical Materialism conference at SOAS.


-.-. --- -.-. -.-


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## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

-- .- .. -.. . . 

-- .- .. -.. . . 

-- .- .. -.. . .


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## Larry O'Hara (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Those who advocate violence against their opponents forfeit the right to serious debate.  They are quite understandably mocked as clowns instead.



funny, I just can't quite see Nelson Mandela in a clown's outfit...


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## Kanda (Nov 14, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> funny, I just can't quite see Nelson Mandela in a clown's outfit...



Wasn't Winnie in the clowns outift??


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## ska invita (Nov 14, 2007)

In case you actually want to see the magazine - you might be interested in this:







> *To mark the re-launch of Black Flag, a meeting is going to be held at Housmans bookshop (5 Caledonian Road, King's Cross, London) on Wednesday, 12th of December (6.30 for a 7pm start) .
> 
> The evening will include a brief introduction including the history of the Black Flag, the magazine and the anarchist symbol itself, followed by a discussion in which comments and suggestions for the new version.*
> 
> ...


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/11/385750.html


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## scumbalina (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> The contradictions in Limpcok are laughable. First they say they are beyond anarchism, now they are promoting a stereotypical anarchist magazine as the best thing since sliced bread. The old stuff about/by Lucy Parsons and Durti (no matter how excellent in their time) is the stuff of a cult and not a movement relating to everyday life.
> 
> Seriously, the picture of Mikal bakunin on the back page was a VIZ LIKE pisstake out of itself that the editors didn't even notice...
> 
> <editor: URL removed>




Was that a link to the feedback thread? In which case they're hardly bigging it up, someone (not part of the Libcom lot) asked for feedback and a few people said it looked good. What's the problem? 

I fucking hate the attitudes on Libcom, I think it shows a lack of solidar'ty and support for others actions and is really fucking destructive. But you're doing exactly the same Attica, you're always slagging of others efforts whilst constantly bigging up yours (and Lucy Parsons et al). It's exactly the same kind of bullshit that Libcom are guilty of, backstabbing and bitching in the anarchist movement with little concrete, constructive critism/offers of help. Just "if it's not done my way it's crap". Nasty and pisstaking, it leaves a bitter tsate oin the mouth, and a lot of your posts sound like they could have come from the mouthes of some of the most guilty of that kind of approach on Libcom.

Libcom are (or should be) an irrelevence (the collective and their attitudes/issues surroundin them, not the site itself which is very good). Why keep drawing attention to it all, making it all such an issue? It's like playground squabbles, it comes across as fucking bizarre


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

I was drawing attention to blatent and stupid contradictions. No, what I am doing is not the same. 

I have constantly argued for public conferences and getting together to resolve issues. Our movement needs more REAL politics not web based stupidity which the youngsters excel in.

If the youngsters persist in avoiding politics they need to be reminded of it constantly, as I have said the point is to improve our movements politics and not avoid it. Limpcok is a convenient arena as I have already said to pretend you are doing something when really you are not, and actually are practicing a new anti democratic tyranny of structureless instead...


----------



## Dubversion (Nov 14, 2007)

fantastic thread - even better than I could have dreamed


----------



## bluestreak (Nov 14, 2007)

Well, I've learnt something.


----------



## newbie (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Nonsense, rubbish, garbage and complete and utter trash in every respect.  You have simply constructed a straw man when you say that there are those who seek to maintain an abstract differentiation between theory and practice.  For is it not totally and unequivocally obvious that *all* theory has practical purport, while equally and by the same token *all* practice has theoretical implications?  And thus we see clearly and without any ambiguity whatsoever that no-one, ever, under any circumstances is remotely capable of engaging in non-practical theory or, in the same regard, non-theoretical practice neither.  "Praxis" therefore cannot in any sense be defined as the unity of theory and practice, since it is inherently and ontologically impossible to separate the two, and therefore by your foolish and simplistic definition *everything* done by anyone anywhere in the whole world would be "praxis."  The term would be all-inclusive and therefore meaningless.  And so it would seem that your grasp of "praxis" is hardly as firm as you would have the more naive among us believe would it not?



woah, slow down there.  _Praxis_ is attica's word, he's been using it for months despite many of us freely confessing we've no idea what he's on about.  He has developed it from whatever dusty theoretical cupboard he found it in into a more current, more relevant and altogether shinier political process, by his own efforts, renewing tired theory with his own tireless practice.

The trite dexterity of your dismissal cannot stand alone: to have any meaning outside it's own narrow confines surely you should similarly commit to a campaign to bring your own interperetation to the forefront of working class discourse. Theory alone cannot displace more secure foundations.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm going to start liberally scattering my speech with the word 'praxis' from now on because it sounds awfully clever. 

I've no idea what it means, mind (perhaps the collective noun for praying mantis/mantises/manti?), but it really is all about the praxis now.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> Well, I've learnt something.


 But no comment on the Viz like pisstake blak flag back page of bakunin?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

newbie said:
			
		

> woah, slow down there.  _Praxis_ is attica's word, he's been using it for months despite many of us freely confessing we've no idea what he's on about.  He has developed it from whatever dusty theoretical cupboard he found it in into a more current, more relevant and altogether shinier political process, by his own efforts, renewing tired theory with his own tireless practice.
> 
> The trite dexterity of your dismissal cannot stand alone: to have any meaning outside it's own narrow confines surely you should similarly commit to a campaign to bring your own interperetation to the forefront of working class discourse. Theory alone cannot displace more secure foundations.



Here's a tip - he's just used words he's copied and strung them together. He doesn't believe any of them, and certainly not the (lack of) argument he is trying to construct. In short, his post is a meaningless red herring.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> Well, I've learnt something.



About time


----------



## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Here's a tip - he's just used words he's copied and strung them together. He doesn't believe any of them, and certainly not the (lack of) argument he is trying to construct. In short, his post is a meaningless red herring.



Well ... it does make sense. I'm just a wee bit surprised that you haven't come back with the obvious answer tbh.


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 14, 2007)

*Autonomism in the UK:*
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=212367[/QUOTE]

You _have *gotta*_ be fucking joking?!


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm going to start liberally scattering my speech with the word 'praxis' from now on because it sounds awfully clever.
> 
> I've no idea what it means, mind (perhaps the collective noun for praying mantis/mantises/manti?), but it really is all about the praxis now.



 

best posting on this monolithically dull thread so far.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> *Autonomism in the UK:*
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=212367



You _have *gotta*_ be fucking joking?![/QUOTE]About what. The thread is Ok.


----------



## cesare (Nov 14, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> best posting on this monolithically dull thread so far.



Ooo harsh! I thought it had been quite entertaining


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Well ... it does make sense. I'm just a wee bit surprised that you haven't come back with the obvious answer tbh.



He doesn't believe it and therefore he makes no sense. all he's done is being contrary for the sake of it... Not big nor clever. One wishes he would dedicate the time to REAL politics instead....


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You _have *gotta*_ be fucking joking?!


About what. The thread is Ok.[/QUOTE]

come on! the title is an absurdity!! 'Autonomism' ?? FFS! i am hardly going to waste my time even looking at such a thread. 

why not just use the word 'freedom' ? cos it doesn't sound cool and all 'Lotta Continua" like 'autonomy'? 
yes, 'autonomy' sounds cool and intellectual but noone outwith anarcho geeks has a clue what it means so - like 'praxis' - it simply is a word you shouldn't use. simple.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Those who advocate violence against their opponents forfeit the right to serious debate.  They are quite understandably mocked as clowns instead.




No they don't you fucking idiot.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

TopCat said:
			
		

> No they don't you fucking idiot.



Yes they do.  And that is because of their faulty understanding of "praxis."  It seems that, for some, the unity of theory and practice means that if you have a theoretical desire to punch someone on the nose you are duty-bound to put that desire into practical effect.  Or rather, your theoretical desire inevitably and unavoidably issues in practical effect, because theory and practice are inseparable.  In reality however it would in this instance be far better in both the pragmatic and the ethical sense to separate theory from practice, so that the theoretical desire does not in fact issue in practical action.  So we see that the notion of "praxis" advanced by some is so simplistic and undialectical as to disqualify its adherents from anything resembling serious discussion.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2007)

Fucking idiot.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 14, 2007)

TopCat said:
			
		

> Fucking idiot.



Too bad.  As I said, you forfeit the right to be taken seriously when you advocate violence.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Too bad.  As I said, you forfeit the right to be taken seriously when you advocate violence.


You're just being all _praxis_ now.


----------



## chilango (Nov 14, 2007)

Praxis is for pussies.



> Aufheben: (past tense: hob auf; past participle: aufgehoben; noun: Aufhebung)
> 
> There is no adequate English equivalent to the German word Aufheben. In German it can mean "to pick up", "to raise", "to keep", "to preserve", but also "to end", "to abolish", "to annul". Hegel exploited this duality of meaning to describe the dialectical process whereby a higher form of thought or being supersedes a lower form, while at the same time "preserving" its "moments of truth". The proletariat's revolutionary negation of capitalism, communism, is an instance of this dialectical movement of supersession, as is the theoretical expression of this movement in the method of critique developed by Marx.


----------



## newbie (Nov 14, 2007)

that's proper working class discourse, that is!


----------



## lights.out.london (Nov 14, 2007)

I look forward to purchasing the new BF at Housemans. Thanks for the heads-up.  

Shame to see Comrades in-fighting when the fight lies beyond the cosy boundaries of the counter-culture and anarchism.


----------



## scumbalina (Nov 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was drawing attention to blatent and stupid contradictions.



Well, if you were referring to the thread that I said I thought you were, no you weren't, as it was nothing to do with "libcom" just happened to be on their site. 




			
				Attica said:
			
		

> Our movement needs more REAL politics not web based stupidity which the youngsters excel in..


 
I couldn't agree more. But you seem just as guilty of it, this thread seems a perfect example. How is having a snide go at Black Flag in order to yet again raise the issue of your problems with libcom anything but destructive?


----------



## lights.out.london (Nov 14, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more. But you seem just as guilty of it, this thread seems a perfect example. How is having a snide go at Black Flag in order to yet again raise the issue of your problems with libcom anything but destructive?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2007)

I think large sections of the movement are inadequate (and that is putting it politely) it just so happens that I could kill 2 birds with one stone this time. 

The current BF is nothing like what it was years ago, it is living on borrowed time, and will have to cut NEW space for itself if it wishes to continue, it will not do that by fetishising anarchisms past for the inward looking anarcho cultists...  

BTW you cannot destroy something that's already fucked. You can suggest how to move forward, and that I have done.


----------



## lights.out.london (Nov 16, 2007)

...but what else is there for BF to write about?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 16, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> Praxis is for pussies.



Fek arfheben


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 16, 2007)

@ phildifool



			
				TopCat said:
			
		

> Fucking idiot.



I agree Topcat, phildwyer is a bullshitter extraordinaire, an ideal example of the meaningless of everyday life.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 16, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> ...but what else is there for BF to write about?



So much it is scary...


----------



## lights.out.london (Nov 16, 2007)

But unless you're referring to theory (which I enjoy), there's nothing new in terms of activism coming through...or have I misunderstood your previous posts?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 16, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> But unless you're referring to theory (which I enjoy), there's nothing new in terms of activism coming through...or have I misunderstood your previous posts?



Then they should be talking about WHY this is the case. This is the age of innovation, and it is a serious problem that more action/events/praxis is not being developed...


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 16, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> ...but what else is there for BF to write about?



nah, BF knows it's market. 'if it ain't broken don't fix it'. 
more articles on the spanish collectives, krondstadt uprising, communiques from beardie blokes who've blown up a petrol station in Nebraska and defence campaigns for beardie blokes who've blown up a petrol station in Nebraska please.


----------



## lights.out.london (Nov 16, 2007)

^ 

I'm all Spained-ed out. I've never been to Nebraska, I loath hippies/beardies and their real ale soaked nonsense, and as for Krondstadt ...zzz...

I take your point. 

So. the solution is..?


----------



## soulman (Nov 16, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> ^
> 
> I'm all Spained-ed out. I've never been to Nebraska, I loath hippies/beardies and their real ale soaked nonsense, and as for Krondstadt ...zzz...
> 
> ...



Depends what readership Black Flag is aimed at..


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 16, 2007)

soulman said:
			
		

> Depends what readership Black Flag is aimed at..



Attica.


----------



## soulman (Nov 17, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> Attica.



Not chico?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2007)

Serious question: what other markets are there?


----------



## soulman (Nov 17, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Serious question: what other markets are there?



Personally I've always considered BF to be aimed inward rather than outward. A tool for anarchists who choose not to belong to the AF or any other so called federation.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 18, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Serious question: what other markets are there?



Perhaps that is the WRONG way to look at the creation of a real anarchist magazine? 

Conservative (small 'c') political thought says what people 'want to hear' - radical thought (and action) must do better than this. It is what I said earlier, BF must create its' own space in the 21st century, not merely pander to the ever dwindling 19th and 20th century anarcho fetishists.


----------



## Socialist Cynic (Nov 20, 2007)

Couple of quick notes on this as I set up the Black Flag thread (as Saii)...

1. The libcom collective had nothing to do with Black Flag, nor with setting up the thread, which I did because I did the design work and was looking for some feedback which lo and behold, I got. Attica's talking bollocks.
2. It's made repeatedly clear both in the thread, the magazine and the indymedia article that historical articles are not what we're aiming for as the mag goes on and this was a showcase first and foremost, and that we used them because we were trying to get together enough interest to bring out a properly organised version for next year. So when he says the magazine is focussing on the wrong things, he's talking bollocks. Again. 
3. It might have been helpful if he'd actually read some of it rather than just casually glancing at the outside pages.
4. No the front page wasn't a Viz rip-off, it was a pastiche of this:






, so Attica is, yeah you guessed it, talking bollocks. 

Edit: As for the back page, that was simply that I’d been playing around with a new program and reckoned as no-one had ever done Bakunin in colour before, some of our anarchist readers –bearing in mind that initially that _is_ the likely readership - might like it. It’s not going to be a repeat feature (well, I might do similar for the Haymarket Martyrs for our mayday edition, you’ll have to wait and see).

Tbh I'm not entirely sure why he's taken such umbridge at it, other than as some pathetic and entirely uncomradely attempt to make his own publication sound better by comparison. Please note than none of the contributors or collective members of Black Flag at present have even commented on his own magazine, he's launched into this shit-slinging effort all by himself.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Perhaps that is the WRONG way to look at the creation of a real anarchist magazine?



Only if you misread market. If you read it as referring to things that people actually concerned about and involved in their collective and individual life then it opens up a whole new perspective beyond simply saying 'what people want to hear'. Is that really trhe only two models you can come up with?  I don't think the real history of radical publishing bears this out in any way.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 20, 2007)

*It is you who talks bollocks*

Clearly you have problems with comprehension, and you do the typical anarchist over reaction. 'How can anybody disagree'... ha ha ha. You need more doses of the real world and quickly pal.




			
				Socialist Cynic said:
			
		

> Couple of quick notes on this as I set up the Black Flag thread (as Saii)...
> 
> 1. The libcom collective had nothing to do with Black Flag, nor with setting up the thread, which I did because I did the design work and was looking for some feedback which lo and behold, I got. Attica's talking bollocks.
> 2. It's made repeatedly clear both in the thread, the magazine and the indymedia article that historical articles are not what we're aiming for as the mag goes on and this was a showcase first and foremost, and that we used them because we were trying to get together enough interest to bring out a properly organised version for next year. So when he says the magazine is focussing on the wrong things, he's talking bollocks. Again.
> ...




TBH I am not bothered about BF, I just used it as a stereotypical example of the anarchist movement to expose the contradictions in Limpcoks politics. That's all. Of course its your baby and you love it dearly, but I prefer grown up politics 

You are even starting to lie. Why? Do you have secret state agendas?

Here's my first post on this thread - "Seriously, the picture of Mikal bakunin on the back page was a VIZ LIKE pisstake out of itself that the editors didn't even notice". 

If your intellectual comments on this thread are anything to go by, with people like you working for BF it's doomed.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 20, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Only if you misread market. If you read it as referring to things that people actually concerned about and involved in their collective and individual life then it opens up a whole new perspective beyond simply saying 'what people want to hear'. Is that really trhe only two models you can come up with?  I don't think the real history of radical publishing bears this out in any way.



You are being a bit liberal here, and at the same time projecting too. Making up that I have only forwarded '2 models' when we were not talking in those terms is a bit wierd frankly. I think i have aluded to more than 2 on this website in my posting history too, but never  mind this is not a serious Q. for me.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2007)

Eh?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 20, 2007)

I have just googled Black FLag and come up with issue 219 which had the review below in it (which I hadn't read, or if I had I forgot it). I was hoping to see the online presentation of the new BF mag but I couldn't find it.


ALL POWER TO THE IMAGINATION by DAVE DOUGLASS published by CLASS WAR price £5

In this book, Douglass provides a stirring defence of trade unions as "marking the pages of (a worker's) personal and class history, the conditions of his current working life against that of his father and grandfather-the terms that govern his hours of labour, his wages, the age of his marras, even their sex, is established in epochs of union struggle, class struggle remembered and learned." This book is also, in part, a reply to articles by Cajo Brendel and Theo Sander, and attacks in Wildcat denouncing Dave Douglass as an "Anarcho-Stalinist" and a union bureaucrat for serving as elected NUM branch delegate for Hatfield Colliery. Much of the book is taken up with his response.

His argument is simple enough; "Trade unions, in the terms they look at them, are basically inanimate objects and therefore cannot make a revolution. It is the working class, as a class, which is revolutionary, and who will make the revolution. What I argue is that workers can utilise their own class instruments to do this." He makes an analogy with a bus, - an inanimate object, but one which could be "set on fire to stop blacklegs or the fascists." Unions, like buses, can be transformed into revolutionary instruments for which they weren't designed.

As someone who's been a member of UCATT and the TGWU I can go some of the way with this; certainly on a local level. A branch can be way to the left and considerably more militant than the union bureaucracy could ever conceive, but beyond that the "bus" analogy only works if you concede that you'd need to overpower the driver and the conductor first. Dave is right though, to argue that "The union is seen by workers as an instrument in their fight for social survival. It is both absurd and reactionary to petulantly stand, face to the wall, saying "I' m agin the unions" in some purer than thou stance, while millions upon millions of workers utilise them as front-line weapons in the class war." I'd be more worried about the line he takes, if he wasn't so concerned with and inspired by the struggles of ordinary people at school, in the street, over race, gender, housing etc. Douglass sees trade unions as an arena of class struggle, part of working class life to be fought over.

There is a detailed and powerful article appendixed detailing indiscipline and rebellion in the 18th, 19th and 20th Century coalfields which is worth a fiver on its own. There's also a wonderful bit where he reflects on the 60s, on young miners being inspired by the Panthers ("we thought of them as ...our party in America, they were the people on the ground fighting an aspect of the war which was inextricably linked to our own",) the Proves "emerging kicking and shooting out of the republican ghettos, of occupied Ulster", and "rocking the night away and shagging all over the place." "All Power to the Imagination" is a genuinely inspirational read. As I agree with just about everything in he says in it, it's easy for me to say that-a lot of people won't; they should read it any way, simply because its a pleasure to read some thing written with so much passion and verve and genuine belief in our capacity as a class to change the world.


----------



## Socialist Cynic (Nov 20, 2007)

Have you ever considered NOT being a snide, arrogant, aggressive prick online Attica? It might aid you in avoiding getting banned from bulletin boards in the future.



> Do you have secret state agendas?



Are you insane? 



> Here's my first post on this thread - "Seriously, the picture of Mikal bakunin on the back page was a VIZ LIKE pisstake out of itself that the editors didn't even notice".



Yes I noticed that, hence the edit. However, on Meanwhile at the Bar (shortly before being banned, again), you wrote:



> The 'Opposition'
> 
> I mean, the Viz piss take Black Flag with a whole page Bakunin on the back



Now, quite apart from the charming attitude evidenced when calling all other anarchist-oriented magazines ‘the opposition’, the implication is that it’s the whole of Black Flag which is ‘Viz-like’, so I’m hardly ‘lying’.



> If your intellectual comments on this thread are anything to go by, with people like you working for BF it's doomed.



I couldn’t care less how intellectual you might think I am Attica, I’m just annoyed that you insist on spreading your endless bile over people you don’t even know who have done nothing to you and who are, technically, supposed to be on the same side. If you spent even half the time attacking the right as you do badmouthing your comrades’ efforts you might actually be worth something. Eventually. 

As has been said elsewhere, it’s sadly ironic that you whine endlessly about how you were treated by libcom posters/admins when you replicate the absolute worst of their behaviour with none of their redeeming features (like an actual sense of humour or any real insights). Show some comradely behaviour Attica, and stop acting like king of the hill all the time because it’s tired and very, very boring.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

Socialist Cynic said:
			
		

> Now, quite apart from the charming attitude evidenced when calling all other anarchist-oriented magazines ‘the opposition’, the implication is that it’s the whole of Black Flag which is ‘Viz-like’, so I’m hardly ‘lying’.



The 'opposition' was in inverted commas, which means ANY projection of what I think 'the opposition' is is dubious to say the least. As it goes, in this particular case, the opposition meant other mags competing for market share and nothing more (hence inverted commas)...

NO NO NO you cannot rob from other websites and say I meant 'such and such' otherwise whatever anybody has said from anywhere counts, and that is a completely STUPID was to proceed debate. AS I said, it was the BACK PAGE which was the VIz like Black FLag, NOTHING i said meant that the whole mag was like that, though certainly I indicated that the anarcho fetishism present within the mag was a large problem. SO in short, you are lying, in fact you want that to be the case so your sloppy thinking can proceed unchallenged.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

As for secret state agendas, I do not know you and so suggesting that this is what the state does, and hence possibly you, is not extraordinary.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

Socialist Cynic said:
			
		

> I couldn’t care less how intellectual you might think I am Attica, I’m just annoyed that you insist on spreading your endless bile over people you don’t even know who have done nothing to you and who are, technically, supposed to be on the same side. If you spent even half the time attacking the right as you do badmouthing your comrades’ efforts you might actually be worth something. Eventually.
> 
> As has been said elsewhere, it’s sadly ironic that you whine endlessly about how you were treated by libcom posters/admins when you replicate the absolute worst of their behaviour with none of their redeeming features (like an actual sense of humour or any real insights). Show some comradely behaviour Attica, and stop acting like king of the hill all the time because it’s tired and very, very boring.



I do not give a shite what you or t'other limpcok youngsters think, you are not my peers - how working class you (collective 'you') are is also very debatable.

As for comradely behaviour, I do not think challenging anarcho fetishism is uncomradely. I do show comradely behaviour in praxis in the North East, amongst AF, other anarchos, socialists, Wobblies and Trade Unionists, and in meetings to do with Mayday magazine. I find it astonishing that the fools in charge of Limpcok and MATB cannot handle debate, they actually want the movement to be perpetually irrelevant. As I have said before, if you cannot handle me, woe betide you meeting any real working class people  

The problem is I criticise the limp, vague, prejeudiced, and undemocratic limpcok and they cannot handle real heated debate. Their immaturity is truly awesome. Just go see the stupid prejeudiced reactionary whining on the BF thread on Limpcok now! It is pathetic.


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> As I have said before, if you cannot handle me, woe betide you meeting any real working class people


----------



## scumbalina (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I do not give a shite what you or t'other limpcok youngsters think, you are not my peers - how working class you (collective 'you') are is also very debatable.



But he isn't one of the libcom lot as has been pointed out. it really looks like you've just used Black Flag as a way to have a go at Libcom, which is just bizarre   But then to imply for no reason at all that someone has 





> secret state agendas


 is just bang out of order.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> But then to imply for no reason at all that someone has  [secret state agendas] is just bang out of order.




Fek off - he lied. What agenda does he have? That is curious for me at least.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> But he isn't one of the libcom lot as has been pointed out. it really looks like you've just used Black Flag as a way to have a go at Libcom, which is just bizarre



The only thing that is bizarre is that they all didn't get flattened at the bookfair  

You cannot disconnect Limpcok from those they support, and those who 'help out' here and there. Because they have no real existence, nothing you can pin them down on, thye have set up an anti democratic tyranny of structurelessness. I used BF to show up their confused mish mash politics, no more, because as I said, they do not want to take responsibility for their lack of politics.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

>



Have another go and this time do it sober.


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Fek off - he lied. What agenda does he have? That is curious for me at least.



Woah! hold the horses...you're beginning to sound like larry O'hara there mate and you know what comes next? the men in white coats and the room with the mattresses on the walls


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> Woah! hold the horses...you're beginning to sound like larry O'hara there mate and you know what comes next? the men in white coats and the room with the mattresses on the walls



I appreciate he maybe yet another youngster who does not fully understand what he is doing or saying, but it is  a valid question. Chico, you must separate web forums from hard copy political propaganda, this is *only* pub chat as I have said before. Have you read Mayday magazine yet? Let us know what you think if so, via PM perhaps....


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

Socialist Cynic said:
			
		

> stop acting like king of the hill all the time



But I am king Are you seriously saying that I should not be confident? Cos I am. I am confident that Mayday is the best anarchist magazine of the year, by a country mile/million miles... You all talk about me/mention me all the time anyway, I know it is love though 

It is noticeable too that rather than actually engage in real politics which would entail serious thought limpcok have totally failed (a month later) to have anything to say politically about the Mayday magazine   Children you are and children you will remain...

But seriously, what do you expect me to do? Be pleased with your reactionary behaviour? Look at The buttons lazy and lying precis of this thread on limpcok for example. He/she (prob he) gets away with reactionary prejeudiced language and limpcok protects people like him, though I do not know how revol got away with the reactionary language about those with learning difficulties on THIS website (but that's another issue) although he has been very guilty of it and many many other things on Limp, and he is protected....


----------



## scumbalina (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Fek off - he lied. What agenda does he have? That is curious for me at least.




Where did he lie? And maybe he just made a mistake, maybe it was a misunderstanding...or maybe he does have an agenda. But to assume that agenda is that he is a state agent is unbelievably paranoid, and accusing someone of something as serious as that should not be taken lightly, it's a fucked up thing to bandy about without any backup.


----------



## scumbalina (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You cannot disconnect Limpcok from those they support, and those who 'help out' here and there.



AFAIK those involved in the thread you're on about only "help out" by posting on there...as have you on many occasions....


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> Where did he lie? And maybe he just made a mistake, maybe it was a misunderstanding...or maybe he does have an agenda. But to assume that agenda is that he is a state agent is unbelievably paranoid, and accusing someone of something as serious as that should not be taken lightly, it's a fucked up thing to bandy about without any backup.



There's nothing at all wrong with asking questions.


----------



## scumbalina (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> There's nothing at all wrong with asking questions.



Where did he lie?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> Where did he lie?



If you read from the top of the page down he says that I claimed the entire issue was a viz piss take when I did no such thing. See point 4 in the first post on this page,  and the rest of the debate. He added the page page design comment when he realised he'd fekked up, though that still makes it a Viz piss take back page no matter what colour it is...


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I appreciate he maybe yet another youngster who does not fully understand what he is doing or saying, but it is  a valid question. Chico, you must separate web forums from hard copy political propaganda, this is *only* pub chat as I have said before. Have you read Mayday magazine yet? Let us know what you think if so, via PM perhaps....



Will do mate, in fact i'll try to pick up aa copy this weekend if it's for sale in Housmans. however, i was under the impression that mayday was more a theoretical discussion journal for those 'in' the @ movement. I can't really thi nk of any publications produced by @s which i would regard as 'propaganda' (in fact, not that i want to open up a debate on semantics, to be succesful 'propaganda' i would say it would be imperative not one single mention of anarchism were made in the publication whatsoever)


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> Where did he lie?



i also answered that here;
C & P from above "I appreciate he maybe yet another youngster who does not fully understand what he is doing or saying...


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> Will do mate, in fact i'll try to pick up aa copy this weekend if it's for sale in Housmans. however, i was under the impression that mayday was more a theoretical discussion journal for those 'in' the @ movement. I can't really think of any publications produced by @s which i would regard as 'propaganda' (in fact, not that i want to open up a debate on semantics, to be succesful 'propaganda' i would say it would be imperative not one single mention of anarchism were made in the publication whatsoever)



Well I hope it is in Housmans by now. Though I am reliant on the London branch to sort things like this as I am up north.

I think Mayday tries to raise standards for and within the movement, in terms of ideas, quality, debate and so on. We were not big enough to start straight away with a propaganda project, so at the minute, we have have one foot within the movement (dipping a toe) and the other toes and foot outside it. 

It is clear from article contents eg. on the entire anti fascist/anti racist/pro migrant movement, on the wreckers, on the new economic conditions, popular culture, and the historical and worldwide overview that Mayday has big ambitions. But you would have to read the introductory 'Open Letter to the Movement' for a full description.

If you don't get a copy send me a PM.


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I think Mayday tries to raise standards for and within the movement, in terms of ideas, quality, debate and so on. We were not big enough to start straight away with a propaganda project, so at the minute, we have have one foot within the movement (dipping a toe) and the other toes and foot outside it.



that makes sense and is a laudable aim. And a wise policy, think most @s make the mistake of thinking what they are producing _*is*_ propaganda when 99% of the time it has no resonance outside the movement itself.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> that makes sense and is a laudable aim. And a wise policy, think most @s make the mistake of thinking what they are producing _*is*_ propaganda when 99% of the time it has no resonance outside the movement itself.



Very good that man. Carry on.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Nov 21, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> Woah! hold the horses...you're beginning to sound like larry O'hara there mate and you know what comes next? the men in white coats and the room with the mattresses on the walls



that you are so sad, and brain-dead, you need to resort to psychiatric-style content-free abuse says far more about you than it does me.  Get a life.


----------



## scumbalina (Nov 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> If you read from the top of the page down he says that I claimed the entire issue was a viz piss take when I did no such thing. See point 4 in the first post on this page,  and the rest of the debate. He added the page page design comment when he realised he'd fekked up, though that still makes it a Viz piss take back page no matter what could it is...



So....not a lie, but a mistake, misunderstanding what you meant. And to think that even if he _was_ lying about something so ridiculous as whether or not you said a paper was a Viz pisstake would imply he had a state agenda is....a really really odd thing to think. I don't _think_ Saii and Black Flag are out to get you, but maybe I'm wrong


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 21, 2007)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> but maybe I'm wrong















.


----------



## cesare (Nov 22, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Look at The buttons lazy and lying precis of this thread on limpcok for example. He/she (prob he) gets away with reactionary prejeudiced language and limpcok protects people like him, <blah blah>



Ah yes, someone on Libcom asked for a précis of this thread, and this is what The Button posted:




			
				The Button on libcom said:
			
		

> _"Attica: Black Flag's really shit compared to Mayday, which, incidentally, I produced, because compared to me, all other anarchists are shite.
> 
> Everybody else: Mentalist."
> _
> ...



Nothing lying or lazy about that imo - seems like a pretty accurate summary. Or are you truly not picking up the relatively gentle criticisms of your innumerable posts on U75, re using Urban as (a) a platform to attack other BBs that you've fallen out with; and (b) your self- aggrandising?

Apply that 'praxis' thing to your own MO, and move on before you further discredit yourself.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 22, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> Ah yes, someone on Libcom asked for a précis of this thread, and this is what The Button posted:
> 
> Nothing lying or lazy about that imo - seems like a pretty accurate summary. Or are you truly not picking up the relatively gentle criticisms of your innumerable posts on U75, re using Urban as (a) a platform to attack other BBs that you've fallen out with; and (b) your self- aggrandising?
> 
> Apply that 'praxis' thing to your own MO, and move on before you further discredit yourself.



WE disagree dik head.  

This 'discredit' bollox is pathetic, any real serious independent objective viewpoint would be more balanced, or even agree with me more  

Have you read the great Mayday magazine, it has better politics than the other anarchists have produced this year. Until you fools have better judgement (cos you are full of pathetic anarcho fetishist teenage angst -as I said it is noticeable you have FAILED to have anything to say about Mayday magazines politics for a month) you will be perpetually irrelevant.


----------



## cesare (Nov 22, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> WE disagree dik head.
> 
> This 'discredit' bollox is pathetic, any real serious independent objective viewpoint would be more balanced, or even agree with me more
> 
> Have you read the great Mayday magazine, it has better politics than the other anarchists have produced this year. Until you fools have better judgement (cos you are full of pathetic anarcho fetishist teenage angst -as I said it is noticeable you have FAILED to have anything to say about Mayday magazines politics for a month) you will be perpetually irrelevant.



If Mayday magazine contains similar obsessed ramblings about other BBs - I have no intention of reading it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 22, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> If Mayday magazine contains similar obsessed ramblings about other BBs - I have no intention of reading it.



  Do you know how pathetic you are saying that? Forums are no better than informal pub chat, to draw any conclusions from them at all is futile as I have already said. I have also already said that it is in hard copy that you should consider my politics, nowhere else.

In truth, there is no discussion of pathetic forums in the Mayday magazine, and Maydays politics are at such a comprehensive serious level that fools like you and limpcok can only dream of aspiring to them. Cos you have *none* now (but do not worry, Maydays politics are far better than the vast majority, if not all, of the other pathetic movement offerings so you are not alone)....


----------



## cesare (Nov 22, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Do you know how pathetic you are saying that? Forums are no better than informal pub chat, to draw any conclusions from them at all is futile as I have already said. I have also already said that it is in hard copy that you should consider my politics, nowhere else.
> 
> In truth, there is no discussion of pathetic forums in the Mayday magazine, and Maydays politics are at such a comprehensive serious level that fools like you and limpcok can only dream of aspiring to them. Cos you have *none* now (but do not worry, Maydays politics are far better than the vast majority, if not all, of the other pathetic movement offerings so you are not alone)....



You inspire such confidence in Mayday and your alleged politics. No, really.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 22, 2007)

cesare said:
			
		

> You inspire such confidence in Mayday and your alleged politics. No, really.



You really have next to no idea so your wild speculations of angst do u no credit.


----------



## cesare (Nov 22, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You really have next to no idea so your wild speculations of angst do u no credit.



Oh noes


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 22, 2007)

On the front of Mayday magazine there is The Tribe of Wombles, Autonomous Anti Fascism, 1967-2007 a Socialist review, and a large founding statement; Introduction - Open Letter to the movement advertised. 

Inside there is a review article about wrecking and a good book called "the wreckers"(!) - as far as I know the first @/left article to tackle the subject that was huge news for a fortnight earlier this year (the Napoli was beached in Devon), and a great Ian Bone article on the history of football, corporate media and Jade Goody talking about the new cultural environment.


----------



## Steve Booth (Nov 22, 2007)

I think all of us (and I include myself in this) need to be more charitable in the way that we look at the other peoples' magazines.

Part of the problem is that nobody really knows what the next step in anarchist publications will be. The people are having a hard enough time just surviving as mags, and therefore their definition of what they are suffers.

In the face of the competition from the internet, the whole radical publications scene has suffered immensely.

I agree that having the 'A' word on it is an obstacle to getting it accepted by people out there. Consequently, the magazines become inwards looking and ghettoised.

Part of this is about (forgive the hateful word) marketing. Perhaps one way forwards would be a kind of simplification, where things are reduced to the level of slogans or sound bytes, with nifty graphics and then put on posters or beer mats. The footprint of publications needs to be spread to a much broader base.

I've not seen the Mayday, and this is not a comment against anybody, but I think it is important to inject a sense of fun into things. The graphic about downloading communism was good in this regard.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 22, 2007)

Steve Booth said:
			
		

> I think all of us (and I include myself in this) need to be more charitable in the way that we look at the other peoples' magazines.
> 
> Part of the problem is that nobody really knows what the next step in anarchist publications will be. The people are having a hard enough time just surviving as mags, and therefore their definition of what they are suffers.
> 
> ...



A worthy post.


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 26, 2007)

Steve Booth said:
			
		

> Part of this is about (forgive the hateful word) marketing. Perhaps one way forwards would be a kind of simplification, where things are reduced to the level of slogans or sound bytes.



yes. Something a lot of us realised, oh, over a quarter of a century ago (and employed to resounding success and popular acclaim), but for some inscrutable reason many seem to have forgotten about now.


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 26, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> yes. Something a lot of us realised, oh, over a quarter of a century ago (and employed to resounding success and popular acclaim), but for some inscrutable reason many seem to have forgotten about now.


indeed!


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> indeed!



Perhaps we need a national paper then which ignores political conventions, which has cartoons, is not scared of the language of the streets and  pubs, and relates with everyday life with a fun perspective.

Are you all up for it again?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 27, 2007)

*Is this you?*

Agitation and Propaganda
<huge c&p snipped - FM>


----------



## chico enrico (Nov 27, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Agitation and Propaganda
> <huge c&p snipped - FM>


----------



## mk12 (Nov 27, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Fuk U cok ed.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 28, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

>



I cut and pasted a relevant article for thinking about in the context of talking about a potential new newspaper, and somebody has edited it out? Goes to find link...


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 28, 2007)

Here it is;
http://www.isreview.org/issues/55/agitprop.shtml


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## chico enrico (Nov 29, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Here it is;
> http://www.isreview.org/issues/55/agitprop.shtml


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 29, 2007)

chico enrico said:
			
		

>



I was posting that for it to kickstart some intellectual debate - not to depress you. I wasn't endorsing it...


----------



## durruti02 (Dec 5, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Perhaps we need a national paper then which ignores political conventions, which has cartoons, is not scared of the language of the streets and  pubs, and relates with everyday life with a fun perspective.
> 
> Are you all up for it again?


  yes of course


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> yes of course



If I hear owt I'll let U know...


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## OurLastLament (Dec 13, 2007)

I bought the new black flag magazine. Can I have my 3 quid back?


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 13, 2007)

OurLastLament said:
			
		

> I bought the new black flag magazine. Can I have my 3 quid back?



That;s a good call Can I have mine too.


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## lights.out.london (Dec 14, 2007)

I bought a copy. Not impressed. Same old, same old but this time_ sans_ humour, _sans _relevance and bollocks to the ladybirds...


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 15, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> I bought a copy. Not impressed. Same old, same old but this time_ sans_ humour, _sans _relevance and bollocks to the ladybirds...



they are not doing very well then.


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 16, 2007)

Lots of dead folk featured. Lots of dead ideas, too. It's a shame - a lot of work has gone into the production of the mag.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 17, 2007)

Am I missing something; two articles in Im of the perception it was fine.


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 17, 2007)

The articles were/are fine, or the whole package is fine? If that's the end result of a year's 'sabbatical', I'm disappointed.


----------



## soulman (Dec 17, 2007)

Went in to town today and bought a copy. I've only had a quick look at the cover and first two pages. My initial reactions are:

Why isn't the black flag/banner still on the front cover, that's what used to make it stand out on a bookshelf. 

What's going on with the colours on the front, and the ladybird. Couldn't you afford red? Or is orange making a statement I don't fully understand?

As much as I admire the Bakunist sentiment, the big picture doesn't work for me. Actually I find it quite disturbing. Do some people have touched up photo's of dead anarchists on their wall?

On the plus side:

Good to see the 'Ethos' hasn't changed. I've always thought that's the most understandable explanation of anarchism.

An honest editorial. The editor(s) are quite open about the fact this issue of BF  is looking back rather than forward. They don't ask for more contributors, and contributions, but they should.

Phew! That's without reading any of the articles yet.


----------



## soulman (Dec 17, 2007)

Read the editorial again, and to be fair, they are asking for more contributors.  But still not explaining what kind of contributions they want, and word limits etc..


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 21, 2007)

soulman said:
			
		

> As much as I admire the Bakunist sentiment, the big picture doesn't work for me. Actually I find it quite disturbing. Do some people have touched up photo's of dead anarchists on their wall?


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 21, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

>



They appear to act rather like the limpcokers, who touch each other up as they self referentially pat each other on the back for a 'job well done'. ha Ha.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 21, 2007)

soulman said:
			
		

> The editor(s) are quite open about the fact this issue of BF  is looking back rather than forward.


This is the total criticism of this thread, no?


----------



## soulman (Dec 21, 2007)

october_lost said:
			
		

> This is the total criticism of this thread, no?


Having now read some of the articles I would say yes, that's my main criticism. I also think the front and back cover wasn't good at all. In fact, it was just plain strange really. I bought my copy in a bookshop that sells most of the  anarchist and left magazines. It didn't stand out at all.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2007)

Here comes the the rumble...submit to the rumble


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 21, 2007)

Rumble Is Master.

Learn Rumble Think.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 22, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Here comes the the rumble...submit to the rumble



Is this a newspaper or a magazine? What is it for? To do what Counter Information used to do? 

What is it trying to achieve? Anything?


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 26, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> They appear to act rather like the limpcokers, who touch each other up as they self referentially pat each other on the back for a 'job well done'. ha Ha.



lmao - a degree of insular self-congratulatory back-slapping and then down to the pub? 

Perhaps I've misunderstood what BF mag is meant to be about? If it's a _historical review_, it's okay.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 26, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> lmao - a degree of insular self-congratulatory back-slapping and then down to the pub?
> 
> Perhaps I've misunderstood what BF mag is meant to be about? If it's a _historical review_, it's okay.



DOn't be cheeky now


----------



## october_lost (Dec 27, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> lmao - a degree of insular self-congratulatory back-slapping and then down to the pub?
> 
> Perhaps I've misunderstood what BF mag is meant to be about? If it's a _historical review_, it's okay.


I kind of understand now why nothing ever gets done in anarcho scenes because most people seem content to slag others off for at least attempting to do something - I saw the same with the Underground publication last year  . 
These people have come together off their own backs after quite a substantial hiatus to put together something that a few years ago was a regular publication for our movement (if you want to call it that) and people can do nothing but 'have a go' - I wont say I was knocked over by the mag, I read pages of what I would describe as good analysis, but if you dont think they fit your stringent criticism you should point that out so that the boys and girls involved can at least try and improve what theyre doing, otherwise how does anything improve? 
Maybe a nice letter would be in order


----------



## OurLastLament (Dec 27, 2007)

bollocks mate. a turd is still a turd even if you put a new cover on it. 

saying  at least they tried is lame. _thats_ why nothing gets done cos its the same old fucking cop out and apologies...at least they try.  

try? why bother if thats it?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Dec 28, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Here comes the the rumble...submit to the rumble


mwah ha ha  

them were the days.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 28, 2007)

OurLastLament said:
			
		

> bollocks mate. a turd is still a turd even if you put a new cover on it.
> 
> saying  at least they tried is lame. _thats_ why nothing gets done cos its the same old fucking cop out and apologies...at least they try.
> 
> try? why bother if thats it?


Because we dont have all the expertise at our disposal, sometimes we have to lower standards because people are doing things off their own back and deserve credit for it. They can improve of course, but thats as much about comradely input - do half the critics on here actually believe in co-operation or are they more interested in scoring cheap points?


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 28, 2007)

I see both points of view. I don' think ourlastlament is talking about the aesthetic qualities of the magazine, rather the content. It's dull, it's been done to death, it doesn't move anything forward (IMO).

Would BF welcome any help or ideas? I do take your point about those criticising and throwing stones but not aren't prepared to do anything tthemselves.

To generate any interest in 'our' ideas, I think BF should be relevant to today; maybe starting with a local view (UK) and showing how Anarchist ideas are relevant to people in the UK, right here, right now.


----------



## chico enrico (Dec 28, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> To generate any interest in 'our' ideas, I think BF should be relevant to today; maybe starting with a local view (UK) and showing how Anarchist ideas are relevant to people in the UK, right here, right now.



yea, but they're not relevant. there's no @ groups doing anything worthwhile and there hasn't been for years so how can the ideas have any currency? anarchists just live in their own strange little world and their publications reflect this. that's why @s, @ groups and @ papers in the UK are falling before they even pass the starting line.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 28, 2007)

You dont rate LCAP or the climate camp stuff?


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 28, 2007)

Me or Chico?


----------



## soulman (Dec 28, 2007)

october_lost said:
			
		

> Because we dont have all the expertise at our disposal, sometimes we have to lower standards because people are doing things off their own back and deserve credit for it. They can improve of course, but thats as much about comradely input - do half the critics on here actually believe in co-operation or are they more interested in scoring cheap points?



My criticism was meant to be constructive. I hope it wasn't construed in any other way.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 28, 2007)

soulman said:
			
		

> My criticism was meant to be constructive. I hope it wasn't construed in any other way.


I was railling against the usual sorry snipes, constructive criticism is always welcome.


----------



## lights.out.london (Dec 29, 2007)

Oh so sensitive.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 29, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Me or Chico?


Twas at chico's comment, but feel free to wade in...


----------



## chico enrico (Dec 30, 2007)

october_lost said:
			
		

> You dont rate LCAP or the climate camp stuff?



http://horology.jpl.nasa.gov/lcap/

LCAP? I'm confused? 

and i don't really know anything about this climate camp malarkey so can't really comment.


----------



## october_lost (Dec 30, 2007)

So how do you validate your rubbishing of all UK anarchos output?


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 2, 2008)

I just googled 'climate camp'. They look a right bunch of horrors. And they seem to be against increasing flights and building a third runway at heathrow when I would have thought that would mean _cheaper_ flights which is surely a _good_ thing?

Sure they're all well-intentioned enough folk but surely they're an ecology/environmental group rather than being anything to do with anarchism, if that's what you were meaning.

Still ain't got a clue what LCAP is though, there's too many groups with that same acronym on google.


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 3, 2008)

London Coalition Against Poverty .. presumably also in favour of cheaper transport and er flights!


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 5, 2008)

Ah, my apologies. I have heard of them. sound a good bunch too. Just googled them and read of their picket of hackney Housing. 

One thing i would say tho, if any of their members are reading this:  as you've not exactly received much press yet or appear to have a website and as there are countless other groups using the acronym LCAP, maybe it might be an idea to change your name in this embryonic stage. perhaps to something like ANTI POVERTY ACTION (APA) ? a group's name is always the first port of call for any intersted parties and if you can't be located via a google search you're probably doing yourself a disservice. just a suggestion and keep up the good work.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 9, 2008)

It looks like Black Flag have been doing this with there relaunch issue  ;

http://stripeygwen.blogspot.com/2008/01/anarchist-politics-in-print-or-how-to.html


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 9, 2008)

Don't put much effort into publicizing events which are not related to direct, militant confrontation with the violent arm of State and Corporate hegemony.
Reason: We don't want to get confused with whiney liberal passivist types. 

aka don't do anything that isn't related to some daft anti-G8 protest in some foreign country.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 10, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> It looks like Black Flag have been doing this with there relaunch issue  ;
> 
> http://stripeygwen.blogspot.com/2008/01/anarchist-politics-in-print-or-how-to.html



That's pretty funny/on the money.


----------



## Jografer (Jan 10, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> It looks like Black Flag have been doing this with there relaunch issue  ;
> 
> http://stripeygwen.blogspot.com/2008/01/anarchist-politics-in-print-or-how-to.html



This thread started in mid-nov...... and the relaunch is till happening.  

piss-ups & breweries spring to mind....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 10, 2008)

Jografer said:
			
		

> This thread started in mid-nov...... and the relaunch is till happening.
> 
> piss-ups & breweries spring to mind....



Yes, I too am bored with waiting for the next issue.


----------



## soulman (Jan 10, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Yes, I too am bored with waiting for the next issue.



It would have been good to have compared BF and MadDog, or whatever it's supposed to be called. I got a copy of Black Flag no probs...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2008)

soulman said:
			
		

> It would have been good to have compared BF and MadDog, or whatever it's supposed to be called. I got a copy of Black Flag no probs...



What are you on about?


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

Yet more on the Black Flag tragedy;

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/the-anarchist-movement-slower-than-a-glacier/


----------



## chico enrico (Feb 14, 2008)

all true, but then why does Bone even bother with anarcho types atall? it's like having been a big Beatles fan in the sixties then moaning when Paul Mccartney puts out 'the frog chorus'.


----------



## october_lost (Feb 14, 2008)

Yet more tragedy? Its the same people snipping AFAICS


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## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

october_lost said:


> Yet more tragedy? Its the same people snipping AFAICS



Didn't you read the post above? 

Snipping what?


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## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

october_lost said:


> Yet more tragedy?



I said 'yet more on the BF tradegy' - which means more to say on, rather than a deeper BF tradegy, which incidentally - would be fekking hard to achieve


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## Paul Marsh (Feb 15, 2008)

I thought BF was broadly OK, but I do have a problem with anarchist 'historians' who can be just as selective in their approach as 'Marxist' ones. 

Both Black Flag and Bread and Roses have dropped bollocks in this field recently:

http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_intend_to_escape_and_co/2008/01/the-veracity-of.html


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## The Black Hand (Feb 15, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> I thought BF was broadly OK, but I do have a problem with anarchist 'historians' who can be just as selective in their approach as 'Marxist' ones.
> 
> Both Black Flag and Bread and Roses have dropped bollocks in this field recently:
> 
> http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_intend_to_escape_and_co/2008/01/the-veracity-of.html




You Paul have no understanding of historical conditions. Yes Robeson was around when Stalin was. Big deal. It must be borne in mind that the 'revalations' about how nasty Stalinism was really didn't become public knowledge till and starting after the Krushchev speech circa 1954/5/6 (i forget exactly which year).

The historically important features are Robesons contributions to the class struggles of the world, and how he was loved, and is still loved, by many around the world. Are you really going to argue with those class struggle photos in Bread and Roses? Sivanandan and others, all more clued in than you, all valued Robesons contributions. 

You have a strange 'rationalist ahistorical political formulation' in your head, the political mix you hide so very well, it is changeable, unprincipled (eg. your Stalinist manipulation of organisation, or your willingness to betray 'a friend'), and I cannot see from where you derive your politics either... You are a good activist on occasion, but you are a pain in the arse too

So the only bollock around here is you.

PS - this is for you isn't it;
3 PhD Scholarships 
Terrorism Studies 
Centre for Transnational Crime Prevention — University of Wollongong  deadline 28 Feb 08


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## TopCat (Feb 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> You Paul have no understanding of historical conditions. Yes Robeson was around when Stalin was. Big deal. It must be borne in mind that the 'revalations' about how nasty Stalinism was really didn't become public knowledge till and starting after the Krushchev speech circa 1954/5/6 (i forget exactly which year).
> 
> The historically important features are Robesons contributions to the class struggles of the world, and how he was loved, and is still loved, by many around the world. Are you really going to argue with those class struggle photos in Bread and Roses? Sivanandan and others, all more clued in than you, all valued Robesons contributions.
> 
> ...




You sir are as mad as a box of frogs.


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## Paul Marsh (Feb 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> It must be borne in mind that the 'revalations' about how nasty Stalinism was really didn't become public knowledge till and starting after the Krushchev speech circa 1954/5/6 (i forget exactly which year).



Indeed - I can see how easy the Moscow Trials (1936-38) and the induced Ukranian famine (1932-33) were to miss. 

Especially if you weren't looking.


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## The Black Hand (Feb 15, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> Indeed - I can see how easy the Moscow Trials (1936-38) and the induced Ukranian famine (1932-33) were to miss.
> 
> Especially if you weren't looking.



Again, you are trying to impose a perfect and immediate understanding of the past onto historical conditions when it simply wasn't possible. Outside of the ultra left or anarchist clique like you specialise in you assume a circulation of ideas which didn't happen. But you have a problem with the real world don't you.


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## The Black Hand (Feb 15, 2008)

TopCat said:


> You sir are as mad as a box of frogs.



Says the frog to the frog.


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## chico enrico (Feb 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> Again, you are trying to impose a perfect and immediate understanding of the past onto historical conditions when it simply wasn't possible. Outside of the ultra left or anarchist clique like you specialise in you assume a circulation of ideas which didn't happen. But you have a problem with the real world don't you.



mate, the 'real world' actually doesn't have a great deal to do with analysing interniscine post-stalinist factions in russia over half a century ago.


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## brasicritique (Feb 15, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> London Coalition Against Poverty .. presumably also in favour of cheaper transport and er flights!



anti capitalist indeed


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## chico enrico (Feb 16, 2008)

don't understand that comment atall, but any group that was campaigning for cheaper transport and flights would get my vote. and i've got a feeling i'm not the only one.


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## lights.out.london (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm launching a new para-frog cadre...

*closed fist salute*

ribbet.


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## The Black Hand (Feb 25, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> Indeed - I can see how easy the Moscow Trials (1936-38) and the induced Ukranian famine (1932-33) were to miss.
> 
> Especially if you weren't looking.



I have found this wot U wrote;

"I think part of the problem came from the failure of class struggle anarchists after the Poll Tax campaigns. 

The search for the ‘next poll tax’ was fruitless, groups shrank and many of the new activists who had been radicalised went off to live their lives. 

Then lo and behold along came a new counter-cultural scene, with Schnews and RTS as its trailblazers. Here was what the anarchists had sought for years - real numbers and energy. That a lot of the politics was embarrassing shit or unreconstructured PC leftism was inconvenient, but ignored as the better politics were picked out and hyped. 

Ten years on, and the face of anarchism is not the anti-Poll Tax unions or anti-fascist activists of the late 80s early 90s, but instead the Critical mass cyclist shouting abuse at people driving home from work. 

It is entirely our own fault…………."

And I find it hard to disagree with this. Why, when I was shouting about the impotence of existing political forms, including your own, was it found 'inconvenient' though?


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## The Black Hand (Feb 25, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> I thought BF was broadly OK, but I do have a problem with anarchist 'historians' who can be just as selective in their approach as 'Marxist' ones.
> 
> Both Black Flag and Bread and Roses have dropped bollocks in this field recently:
> 
> http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_intend_to_escape_and_co/2008/01/the-veracity-of.html



Have AK press not passed your judgement test too?

PAUL ROBESON: WORDS LIKE FREEDOM CD

Produced by Sele Nadel-Hayes and Patricia Hemphill

With these audio recordings, Freedom Archives introduces you to rare
spoken words of the great Paul Robeson, illuminating a side of this
amazing man's personality and politics that has too often been
suppressed. Robeson saw it as his responsibility to speak the truth
about conditions both domestic and abroad knowing that his fame would
allow these messages to be more widely heard. He was also deeply aware
of the consequences and faced the official repression against him with
dignity and courage.

http://www.akpress.org/2008/items/paulrobesoncd


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## Paul Marsh (Feb 26, 2008)

Attica said:


> And I find it hard to disagree with this. Why, when I was shouting about the impotence of existing political forms, including your own, was it found 'inconvenient' though?



It is an understatement to say I find you 'inconvenient'

Like most other people in the Anarchist movement, I see you as an irritant, with a wholly inaccurate grasp of your own influence and abilities. You are incapable of holding a consistent opinion on anything, other than your own importance and your hero worship of certain individuals in the anarchist movement. 

To any progressive movement you are a liability, especially in the Internet age, where your 'issues' can develop an air of permanence. 

Sadly your inability to obtain the academic career your crave, and a position in the anarchist movement commensurate with how you view your own abilities, means you are liable to get worse, not better, in the coming years.


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## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> It is an understatement to say I find you 'inconvenient'
> 
> Like most other people in the Anarchist movement, I see you as an irritant, with a wholly inaccurate grasp of your own influence and abilities. You are incapable of holding a consistent opinion on anything, other than your own importance and your hero worship of certain individuals in the anarchist movement.
> 
> ...




 Bullshitter. What a load of crap 

I find it funny that the guy (You) with the MPhil can say the above - you are an HYPOCRIT my boy and you cannot even see it. 

You just do not know what I crave and i do not crave, you are way off the mark (as usual). Your education in wonky subjects has done you no good at all, you should have done something political.


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## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> It is an understatement to say I find you 'inconvenient'
> 
> Like most other people in the Anarchist movement, I see you as an irritant, with a wholly inaccurate grasp of your own influence and abilities. You are incapable of holding a consistent opinion on anything, other than your own importance and your hero worship of certain individuals in the anarchist movement.
> 
> ...



BTW you failed to answer the question as usual too. Instead you post your pet prejeudices with no evidence - as usual. COuld you tell me which rule I broke? You know, post it and judge what I was meant to have done  against it? No. Thought not. Dave Douglass left CW cos of your bullshit too.

*I let my work speak for itself,* that is my contribution to politics, some of which is more widespread than others - a couple of years ago 1.5K people had acessed my article 'Custom becomes crime' on the Wombles website alone, the TV programmes, the magazines such as Animal, and Mayday http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf  are all far better than you have published or ever will publish sonny 

That's because you actually have little knowledge of working class politics, economics and history which would be funny if it weren't so tragic. 

Yours is a mixture of empiricism and holier than thou posturing which passes for your politics...


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## lights.out.london (Feb 26, 2008)

**unfolds deckchair**


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## The Black Hand (May 21, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attica 
They appear to act rather like the limpcokers, who touch each other up as they self referentially pat each other on the back for a 'job well done'. ha Ha. 



lightsoutlondon said:


> lmao - a degree of insular self-congratulatory back-slapping and then down to the pub?
> 
> Perhaps I've misunderstood what BF mag is meant to be about? If it's a _historical review_, it's okay.



It looks like I'll have to start being nice to the Limpcokkers

After years of avoiding some of the most important Marxist politics to come out of the UK in the last 50 years they have finally begun to post some E.P. Thompson on their site. Late - but better late than never;

http://libcom.org/library/time-work-discipline-industrial-capitalism-e-p-thompson


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## Zhelezniakov (May 21, 2008)

Don't you think, that you are banging your head against the wall a little bit ?


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## The Black Hand (May 21, 2008)

Zhelezniakov said:


> Don't you think, that you are banging your head against the wall a little bit ?



Why? Are they destined not to learn anything?


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## Zhelezniakov (May 22, 2008)

Unfortunately it would appear to be you who is destined not to learn anything ? It is not good that you bring back to life a rather unpleasant thread that has been dead for months, or that you start many others that seem to exist only to demonstrate how brilliant you think you are. Your way of doing business on here and elsewhere, rather than turning people onto what you have to say, has the opposite effect and turns them away, I would call this head-banging. Being sure of yourself and your ideas can be a strength, however when you do not listen to anybody, it can also lead to blindness.
I would say that you have become a liability rather than an asset to the project that would encourage working class self activity, I know I am not the only person who thinks this. The revolutionary thing to do, is to stand back and reconsider what you are doing, and change. I know that you may feel on a bit of a high at the moment with a current magazine, but for me, it is painful to see you on here, I cannot see you going anywhere, and I cannot imagine that you enjoy it, I know I wouldn't. Attica mate, I know that your heart is in the right place, but really you need to make some changes


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## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

Zhelezniakov said:


> Unfortunately it would appear to be you who is destined not to learn anything ? It is not good that you bring back to life a rather unpleasant thread that has been dead for months, or that you start many others that seem to exist only to demonstrate how brilliant you think you are. Your way of doing business on here and elsewhere, rather than turning people onto what you have to say, has the opposite effect and turns them away, I would call this head-banging. Being sure of yourself and your ideas can be a strength, however when you do not listen to anybody, it can also lead to blindness.
> I would say that you have become a liability rather than an asset to the project that would encourage working class self activity, I know I am not the only person who thinks this. The revolutionary thing to do, is to stand back and reconsider what you are doing, and change. I know that you may feel on a bit of a high at the moment with a current magazine, but for me, it is painful to see you on here, I cannot see you going anywhere, and I cannot imagine that you enjoy it, I know I wouldn't. Attica mate, I know that your heart is in the right place, but really you need to make some changes



Please do tell me who you are via Pm. Ta.


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## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

Zhelezniakov said:


> Unfortunately it would appear to be you who is destined not to learn anything ? It is not good that you bring back to life a rather unpleasant thread that has been dead for months, or that you start many others that seem to exist only to demonstrate how brilliant you think you are. Your way of doing business on here and elsewhere, rather than turning people onto what you have to say, has the opposite effect and turns them away, I would call this head-banging. Being sure of yourself and your ideas can be a strength, however when you do not listen to anybody, it can also lead to blindness.
> I would say that you have become a liability rather than an asset to the project that would encourage working class self activity, I know I am not the only person who thinks this. The revolutionary thing to do, is to stand back and reconsider what you are doing, and change. I know that you may feel on a bit of a high at the moment with a current magazine, but for me, it is painful to see you on here, I cannot see you going anywhere, and I cannot imagine that you enjoy it, I know I wouldn't. Attica mate, I know that your heart is in the right place, but really you need to make some changes



Hi - I do know what I am doing and I am pissed off with the pathetic lack of politics CWF displayed - Dave Douglass left too remember. Libcom/MATB similarly politically NOWHERE - they are dead websites. The only thing saving limpcok is the library. This website is only one of many, the others the same - irrelevant in the big picture. 

I have a position which I will defend, whether it turns people on or off is debateable. But certainly criticism from the usual suspects or stupid attacks (as they all are - i haven't seen any decent political critique of the ideas I promote). If all they have got is abuse they have NOTHING. What is there to change into? I DO NOT WANT TO BE AS STUPID AS THEM.


I do have intellectual ability believe it or not and at the minute there is no opposition, the entire movement is rubbish - my role in that is trying to improve politics via our mag and other efforts. We'll see if it works in the long run. 

Do you agree that what there is now is crap? That it will be continually crap unless things change and we do things differently? 

That is the direction I am moving in, with - if possible, or without the anarchist movement if necessary, I really couldn't give a toss. I am not going to be defending stale ideological politics for the rest of my life - I aim for the new world, and I know that is what other Maydayers want to.

you are right it is not fun - but who said politics would be fun? I will continue to defend what I see is right. There are enough people I get along without outside of the stale anarchists anyway, I am more interested in what people say who are not 'anarchists' tbh. Cheers.


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## Zhelezniakov (May 22, 2008)

I would agree that the opposition to capitalist class society leaves a lot to be desired, only a fool would say otherwise. But if it is shit, do you really think that your contribution is making it better ? Majorities are not always right of course, but when a majority of anarchists are of the same opinion as myself, and I can assure you that they are, when even an ex member of cw calls you as mad as a box of frogs, then surely it is time for you to reconsider what you are doing ? As to who i am, I said something similar to you outside 1968 and all that about two weeks ago, remember ? I don't remember you being none too impressed.


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## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

Zhelezniakov said:


> I would agree that the opposition to capitalist class society leaves a lot to be desired, only a fool would say otherwise. But if it is shit, do you really think that your contribution is making it better ? Majorities are not always right of course, but when a majority of anarchists are of the same opinion as myself, and I can assure you that they are, when even an ex member of cw calls you as mad as a box of frogs, then surely it is time for you to reconsider what you are doing ? As to who i am, I said something similar to you outside 1968 and all that about two weeks ago, remember ? I don't remember you being none too impressed.



The afore mentioned petulent child was getting precious about his website, that's why he's upset. The others are precious too.  Again it takes 2 to tango and I do answer to lies/abuse and so it goes on and on. 

Does it help? who knows? Does it hinder? Perhaps? Nobody is any good at the minute with the partial exception of the IWW. I am carving a political space for myself, people like me, and other autonomists. My great published work is what will stand the test of time - I have a review of Kliens Shock Doctrine lined up in a journal, and that is apart from another review i had publshed in 2007, books lined up and more to come. 

The other 'anarchists' - i really haven't got a clue what they think they are doing? Whatever it is - it is A) isolated, B) Useless, C) Inneffective. It is self referential - at least I can get my ideas published by other people not in the anarcho ghetto.

Mayday suffers no illusions about this, and you should read it cos it clearly shows what I am describing. We do intend to carve a space and grow in the new zones, with *or without *the anarchists. The correct place to judge our politics on this one is in 5 years time (2013) when the early attempts to do something better will be more visible. At the minute we are building a base with which to do something more interesting from. 

The rest of them have *already had *_too much time _and have *gone nowhere* and *done nothing*. For them it will be '5 more years of the same old irrelevant shit'. Those who have the real problem is with people who are carrying on 'as normal'. Now its our turn


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## Zhelezniakov (May 22, 2008)

Well yes Attica, right on. I suppose I know you well enough, to know that you probably wouldn't listen, I must applaud you, the average rhinoceros has nothing on you. I think that you may have succumbed to a bit of the 'militant attitude' amongst other things. Would you do one thing for me though ? Would you cut out some of your insults along the more U R A COCK variety, I know that sometimes they are complete cunt's, but in my opinion, insults should be used sparingly. Attica, they do not reflect well upon you when you use them. If you were nicer to people, maybe they would be more inclined to listen to you, please dwell upon that.


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## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

Zhelezniakov said:


> Well yes Attica, right on. I suppose I know you well enough, to know that you probably wouldn't listen, I must applaud you, the average rhinoceros has nothing on you. I think that you may have succumbed to a bit of the 'militant attitude' amongst other things. Would you do one thing for me though ? Would you cut out some of your insults along the more U R A COCK variety, I know that sometimes they are complete cunt's, but in my opinion, insults should be used sparingly. Attica, they do not reflect well upon you when you use them. If you were nicer to people, maybe they would be more inclined to listen to you, please dwell upon that.



You know I think I am too sensitive, i can detect digs in the most innocuous posts, and i don't like it, and it goes on...

I also am obsessed with theory and practice! No, it's true. If I was proved theoretically wrong, or mistaken, then I would have to eat humble pie. That doesn't get proved to me often enough (it does happen believe it or not), but i can't remember it happening at all on the web. The anarchists have a tenuous grip on theory and practice, in truth they keep them well apart - i don't know why, and so they are incapable of developing praxis. Saying that, I think the entire left and the anarchists suffer from that. The absense of a developing praxis is one of the shocking problems of the 21st century left and the anarchists. The other is an inability to work as a progressive movement and build alliances. As you can see there is much theoretical and practical work to be done. 

See you on the barricades.


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