# Dulwich Hamlet and Coronavirus



## TonyWalt (Mar 16, 2020)

Looks like Dulwich Hamlet have made the decision before (inevitably) The National League does.








						COVID-19 STATEMENT : 16th March 2020
					

The club suspends all football activity for the foreseeable future.




					www.pitchero.com


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 16, 2020)

It's the responsible thing to do I think. Presumably the league-wide decision is coming, as you say -they will have to bite the bullet and postpone but the crowd size and density does make Dulwich different to most teams at our level, so a unilateral decision seems sensible IMO.


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## Lucy Fur (Mar 16, 2020)

possibly just bought Gav another season...


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## Moroccan Sunset (Mar 16, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> possibly just bought Gav another season...



As if things weren't bad enough.


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## Cyclodunc (Mar 16, 2020)

NL suspended









						National League Statement | National League Competition Suspended - The Vanarama National League
					

At its Board Meeting on Friday, The National League decided to use its best endeavours to keep its season going in the face of unprecedented adversity




					www.thenationalleague.org.uk


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## Stuart Fordyce (Mar 16, 2020)

Moroccan Sunset said:


> As if things weren't bad enough.


On the contrary, it gives the club longer to think, and paying for the bloated, expensive squad might focus the mind a bit. Can't see the league resuming as twelve weeks from now puts us well into June.


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## KPMG (Mar 16, 2020)

What’s wrong with playing twice a week?


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## Stuart Fordyce (Mar 16, 2020)

In the non league setup in Scotland (known as the juniors for historical reasons although it's adult men's football), long bad winters often see teams playing Saturday - Monday - Wednesday in late April and May. It's bloody great as you can basically go to the football all the time. These are lads on at most £100 a week as well. 

However 12 weeks from now, puts us into June. I've seen before online that Danny Mills is on a two year deal, but I'd imagine a lot of players contracts run out after the last game of the season or the end of May (to allow for playoffs and FA Trophy). A lot of clubs might not have contracted players - and what of folk like Tonbridge that needed a lot of money just to see out the season?


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## Moroccan Sunset (Mar 16, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> Can't see the league resuming as twelve weeks from now puts us well into June.



They have to finish the season. The consequences if they don't would be unresolvable. If they play twice a week, they should clear the backlog in 4-5 weeks.


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## Stuart Fordyce (Mar 16, 2020)

There's some teams who have played far fewer games than others. We have 35, but Tonbridge 31 and Billericay and Concord 32. If you look at teams' average points per game:

Tonbridge 1.161
Concord 1.152
Billericay 1.152
Dulwich Hamlet 1.057
St. Albans 1.057
Braintree 1.000
Hungerford 0.848

Should still see us safe if they stop it now!


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## Roger D (Mar 16, 2020)

To be blunt, the probability is clubs will go bust before this is over. (I'd suggest Hamlet will need more money to see themselves through to the end of playing contracts than Tonbridge BTW.) Those with players under contract have to keep paying them, despite having no income in many cases. Many clubs lower down, without contracted players, will also struggle as a lot of them rely on bar and function room takings and now we've been told not to go to the pub as well as football. They may not have to pay non contracted players but the other bills will keep on coming.

I really can't see how this season will be finished before the current playing contracts are over. I suspect they will just declare the whole non-league season null and void at our level and the clubs who are left standing will go again in the same division next season - with clubs moving up levels to replace anyone who goes bust. It's going to be a nightmare to sort out though.

It's not just non-league football. A key figure in rugby league has already said they fear rugby league will not survive the next few weeks as a professional sport.


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## Son of Roy (Mar 16, 2020)

Roger D said:


> they fear rugby league will not survive the next few weeks as a professional sport.


Ah well it's an egg chasing, willy grabbing game played by non ex-public school boys!


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## Roger D (Mar 16, 2020)

Not too many ex- public schiolboys play rugby league......


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## Pink Panther (Mar 16, 2020)

Son of Roy said:


> Ah well it's an egg chasing, willy grabbing game played by ex-public school boys!


It's a much tougher version of Association Football played in working class former industrial communities.


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## Son of Roy (Mar 16, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Not too many ex- public schiolboys play rugby league......


Roger appologies got mixed up with the rugby union egg chasing, willy grabbing version of the game  Shouldn't talk about it on the Hamlet forum. Bad form and all that.


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## cambelt (Mar 16, 2020)

Son of Roy said:


> Roger appologies got mixed up with the rugby union egg chasing, willy grabbing version of the game  Shouldn't talk about it on the Hamlet forum. Bad form and all that.


Shouldn't really be wishing harm on anything at the moment tbh.


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## Roger D (Mar 17, 2020)

Sadly the first redundancies have emerged already. Barnet have put all non playing staff on notice, though it looks like they would have had to act to some degree even without Coronavurus









						Club Statement
					

In light of recent events the Club would like to release the following statement.




					www.barnetfc.com
				




Edited to say there's an interesting comment in the Guardian's report. It states that business disruption insurance is standard within the National League (presumably therefore the National Leagues) but that the clubs are currently unable to claim as the government has only recommended the cessation of sports events and not prohibited the matches from being played.









						Barnet lay off all non-playing staff as club counts cost of coronavirus
					

National League club Barnet have responded to the suspension of football by putting all the club’s non-playing staff, about 60 people, on immediate notice of redundancy




					www.theguardian.com


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## Son of Roy (Mar 18, 2020)

Assume the AGM on 26th March is cancelled. The club needs to tell us if the FA are going to pay players wages for the remainder of the season. Or if there is anything we can do to raise or donate money.

Was thinking those NL clubs that survive will not be certain if the  new season is going to start in August/September so they will be reluctant to offer players contracts. There could potentially be lots of players floating around.


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## EDC (Mar 18, 2020)

I don't see why supporters should have to donate anything.


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## Roger D (Mar 18, 2020)

The Chancellor confirmed last night he believes the governments actions to date will trigger Business Interruption insurance in the hospitality industry. Hopefully that also applies to football and that all Conference clubs do have Business Interruption insurance as that should make a difference. (And hopefully they didn't under-insure to save a few bob.)

I can't see the FA stepping in. How much money would it take to sort out probably two thirds of the EFL, the top two tiers of non-league and large chunks of the third tier? (i.e. where contracted players are common.) Would it even be right for them to do so? They have limited funds and are guardians of the game, their focus should be on grassroots etc. not paying wages to players. I think the only way they can step in is in the form of loans if they are confident they will get the money back quickly and they have a large sum of money they can easily access. Large chunks of their money comes from the government from memory and is probably ring fenced to specific projects.

Irrespective of whether supporters should or shouldn't have to donate, I fear if clubs are down to zero income that method of fundraising just won't be sufficient. Tonbridge have previously confirmed they require £7.6k a week to get through to the end of the season. I can't see any club at our level raising that sort of money week in, week out solely from their supporters until contracts are up. I doubt Tonbridge are the highest paying club in the league either.

Edited to say I mean I can't see that sum being raised via small(ish) donations. There may be club's where a benefactor stumps up large sums, people buy equity etc. Raising large sums is possible and probably will be done by some. Just not via twenty quid here and a tenner there.


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## Son of Roy (Mar 18, 2020)

EDC said:


> I don't see why supporters should have to donate anything.


Agree and season ticket holders have already 'donated'.

But I'd rather donate than see the club fold!


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## liamdhfc (Mar 18, 2020)

Son of Roy said:


> Assume the AGM on 26th March is cancelled. The club needs to tell us if the FA are going to pay players wages for the remainder of the season. Or if there is anything we can do to raise or donate money.
> 
> Was thinking those NL clubs that survive will not be certain if the  new season is going to start in August/September so they will be reluctant to offer players contracts. There could potentially be lots of players floating around.


I believe the shareholders AGM is still going ahead although format may change.


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## liamdhfc (Mar 18, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The Chancellor confirmed last night he believes the governments actions to date will trigger Business Interruption insurance in the hospitality industry. Hopefully that also applies to football and that all Conference clubs do have Business Interruption insurance as that should make a difference. (And hopefully they didn't under-insure to save a few bob.)
> 
> I can't see the FA stepping in. How much money would it take to sort out probably two thirds of the EFL, the top two tiers of non-league and large chunks of the third tier? (i.e. where contracted players are common.) Would it even be right for them to do so? They have limited funds and are guardians of the game, their focus should be on grassroots etc. not paying wages to players. I think the only way they can step in is in the form of loans if they are confident they will get the money back quickly and they have a large sum of money they can easily access. Large chunks of their money comes from the government from memory and is probably ring fenced to specific projects.
> 
> ...



1. Business Interruption Cover often does not include Acts Of God and this would count as one. The League may have a policy but just like pubs etc it is likely that it won't trigger without government declaring sports events must stop rather than being advisory. 

2. I don't believe the club has asked for donations and don't think they will. 

Obviously player wages were budgeted based on fulfilling a set  number of home fixtures and their contracts still have to be paid until the first week of May.


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## Roger D (Mar 18, 2020)

The Chancellor last night stated he believed the government actions to date were sufficient to trigger business interruption insurance payments in the pub etc business. They still aren't formally closed, it remains an advisory. Not seen anything to confirm this viewpoint from the insurance industry yet mind. If they say it isn't, I suspect he'll have dug himself into a hole and it will become a formal ban. Clearly he spoke re pubs etc. It may be different for sport.

I'd also suggest for most clubs it won't matter as I doubt many have that insurance - as it seems many pubs etc don't. The Guardian suggested this insurance was mandatory at Conference National level so guess it may be in tier two?

The comment re fundraising was a more generic comment on the wider issue facing higher level clubs rather than DHFC specific. I haven't seen any clubs fundraising in that manner yet tbh though I have seen the odd unofficial fundraiser starting up.

Edited for information, Didcot Town have started a Go Fund Me page stating the future of the club is in doubt.


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## Roger D (Mar 19, 2020)

The main bodies have now confirmed that they won't play until the end of April so I'd expect the National League to do the same.

The Athletic are reporting the league have agreed to Ben's suggested route forward and are asking the FA for a £17m loan to see their member clubs through to the restart/next season.

Edited to say it looks like the FA are approaching the government for assistance.


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## Pink Panther (Mar 19, 2020)

Clubs and the National League being proactive, with our chairman to the fore:









						National League clubs face £17m shortfall during coronavirus crisis
					

The National League’s 68 clubs are facing a cash shortfall of around £17million due to the coronavirus crisis, with the League’s chief executive, Michael Tattersall, warning that “every single one” could be forced into “shutdown” if the Government does not step in to provide financial support.




					www.standard.co.uk


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## ftg6 (Mar 19, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The Chancellor last night stated he believed the government actions to date were sufficient to trigger business interruption insurance payments in the pub etc business. They still aren't formally closed, it remains an advisory. Not seen anything to confirm this viewpoint from the insurance industry yet mind. If they say it isn't, I suspect he'll have dug himself into a hole and it will become a formal ban. Clearly he spoke re pubs etc. It may be different for sport.
> 
> I'd also suggest for most clubs it won't matter as I doubt many have that insurance - as it seems many pubs etc don't. The Guardian suggested this insurance was mandatory at Conference National level so guess it may be in tier two?
> 
> The comment re fundraising was a more generic comment on the wider issue facing higher level clubs rather than DHFC specific. I haven't seen any clubs fundraising in that manner yet tbh though I have seen the odd unofficial fundraiser starting up.



As someone who works in insurance (though as a consultant, not for an actual company), I wouldn't count on many business interruption (BI) claims being successful, given that almost each one has to attach to a Property Damage (PD) claim, in the form of a PDBI policy. For example, if a pub burnt down, the lost revenue in the time it took to reconstruct would be covered under the BI element of the PDBI policy.

This virus hasn't caused any property damage so none of those policies should trigger, unless the pub (or national League) in this case has purchased additional cover to cover non damage business interruption (NDBI), which is unlikely given the substantial extra cost involved. 

The chancellor has dug a massive hole for himself, I think in the hope that it'll shift the public blame onto insurance companies. But the fact is right now many insurance companies would go bust if they had to pay out on all policies, as they haven't received enough premiums to cover the cost since most of their policyholders opted not to buy the additional cover. It's similar to buying third party, fire & theft cover and being aggrieved that the insurance company wouldn't pay for you crashing into a lamppost. So it's unlikely that they'll pay out given that they can't afford, and they'd end up defaulting on the policies of clients who did actually pay for the extra cover in this case.

tl,dr: would be surprised if insurance covered lost revenue from virus, chancellor has dug huge hole.


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## B.I.G (Mar 20, 2020)

If anyone wants to apologise to me for their ridiculous comments about the Hemel game going ahead please do.


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## Son of Roy (Mar 20, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> If anyone wants to apologise to me for their ridiculous comments about the Hemel game going ahead please do.


You were right Mr BIG fair play.


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## EDC (Mar 21, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> If anyone wants to apologise to me for their ridiculous comments about the Hemel game going ahead please do.


I was with you all the way.


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## scousedom (Mar 24, 2020)

Season over.
Or perhaps not.
Either way a tweet was deleted. 








						Confusion in non-league as deleted tweets say FA has ended season
					

The Football Association has told clubs at tiers five and six of the pyramid that their season ‘must end immediately’ due to the coronavirus outbreak, according to tweets the Essex Senior League then deleted




					www.theguardian.com


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## Pink Panther (Mar 24, 2020)

scousedom said:


> Season over.
> Or perhaps not.
> Either way a tweet was deleted.
> 
> ...


It was only referring to the county leagues anyway. Sloppy journalism to illustrate the article with a bloody great National League logo, it's not really anything to do with our level. Sounds like a few people at individual clubs have jumped the gun.

From what I gather reading a few things elsewhere, the Premier and Football Leagues are determined to find a way of completing the season eventually, the leagues below us all think it's best just to write off the season with no promotion or relegation, our league probably wants to find a way of getting at least one club promoted to the Football League.


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## scousedom (Mar 24, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> It was only referring to the county leagues anyway. Sloppy journalism to illustrate the article with a bloody great National League logo, it's not really anything to do with our level. Sounds like a few people at individual clubs have jumped the gun.
> 
> From what I gather reading a few things elsewhere, the Premier and Football Leagues are determined to find a way of completing the season eventually, the leagues below us all think it's best just to write off the season with no promotion or relegation, our league probably wants to find a way of getting at least one club promoted to the Football League.


I actually think it’s quite refreshing the way the football bodies aren’t rushing to impose timetables. They seem to recognise they have time to think and get things right. I wonder if, given the Qatar World Cup coming up in end 2022, and the fixture mayhem that would cause in a normal season schedule, we won’t end up with this season played to a conclusion whenever it can be, and then calendar year seasons in 2021 and 2022.


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## pinknblue (Mar 25, 2020)

It looks as if the step 3,4,5 and 6 clubs are determined to end the season immediately. Isthmian League statement- 24th March 2020 - The BetVictor Isthmian League


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## pinknblue (Mar 25, 2020)

...and The National League plan to do likewise!!! National League vote to immediately end season due to coronavirus crisis


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## bkbk (Mar 25, 2020)

National League likely to void season
					

EXCLUSIVE




					www.standard.co.uk
				






> The National League is preparing to shutdown the season by cancelling all remaining fixtures in a move which could set a significant precedent for professional football.
> 
> The decision, which could be made this week, would have a knock-on effect for the EFL and Premier League, who have said they are committed to completing the campaign.
> 
> The top two tiers of England's non-league system are currently suspended until April 3, but the National League is reluctant to follow the professional game in extending the postponement, with clubs fearing for their futures and eager for certainty.


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## editor (Mar 25, 2020)

They need to cancel the leagues now. There's no fucking way this will all blow over in a month or two, and playing behind closed doors is financial suicide for clubs who are already struggling, neither can they honour player contracts indefinitely while this drags on.


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## EDC (Mar 25, 2020)

I wish they'd hurry up and cancel the Premier League.


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## Pink Panther (Mar 25, 2020)

editor said:


> They need to cancel the leagues now. There's no fucking way this will all blow over in a month or two, and *playing behind closed doors is financial suicide for clubs who are already struggling*, neither can they honour player contracts indefinitely while this drags on.


I don't think anyone is syggesting that as a solution at this level, that's a Premier League thing as far as I can tell where millions can still be made from television and advertising revenue with a captive audience ready to tune in.  My impression is that our clubs want it cancelled so everyone knows where they stand and players can possibly claim the 80% government payments for lost earnings.

Then you'll just get the clubs at the top agitating to be promoted according to the current standings, which would be a bit like allowing the result of a match abandoned at 2-1 after 75 minutes to stand in my view, and we surely can't relegate anyone on the basis of an uncompleted season?


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## editor (Mar 25, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> I don't think anyone is syggesting that as a solution at this level, that's a Premier League thing as far as I can tell where millions can still be made from television and advertising revenue with a captive audience ready to tune in.  My impression is that our clubs want it cancelled so everyone knows where they stand and players can possibly claim the 80% government payments for lost earnings.
> 
> Then you'll just get the clubs at the top agitating to be promoted according to the current standings, which would be a bit like allowing the result of a match abandoned at 2-1 after 75 minutes to stand in my view, and we surely can't relegate anyone on the basis of an uncompleted season?


It's a crisis. Huge compromises have to be made and there may well winners and losers - in an off the field sense - but I'd suggest there could some reasonably fair algorithm (form, goals scored, goal difference*  etc) that could decide the final standings.  In my eyes it would seem unfair to deny Wealdstone their promotion but maybe not bother with any play off slots. 

*Except in our league where promotion should be gifted to the team with the highest home gate. _Obviously. _


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## blueheaven (Mar 25, 2020)

In my view the clubs and authorities should do everything they can to try to get the remaining matches played, and cancel the season only as a very last resort. My suggestion would be that the remaining matches are played late in the summer (or whenever is possible) and, in order to make some extra space in the calendar, next season's additional competitions such as the FA Cup, FA Trophy, League Cup etc should all take a year off. Obviously there would also need to be a temporary relaxation of certain rules around transfer windows etc.

Alternatively, I think it would be fair to complete leagues by using each team's average points-per-match to finish all the standings.


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## editor (Mar 25, 2020)

blueheaven said:


> In my view the clubs and authorities should do everything they can to try to get the remaining matches played, and cancel the season only as a very last resort. My suggestion would be that the remaining matches are played late in the summer (or whenever is possible) and, in order to make some extra space in the calendar, next season's additional competitions such as the FA Cup, FA Trophy, League Cup etc should all take a year off. Obviously there would also need to be a temporary relaxation of certain rules around transfer windows etc.
> 
> Alternatively, I think it would be fair to complete leagues by using each team's average points-per-match to finish all the standings.


Wouldn't some clubs still have to pay some contracted players during this extended period?


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## liamdhfc (Mar 25, 2020)

Players are out of contract at end of April and clubs are having to pay their wages already. How will they retain them and carry on paying until an undefined date in the future?


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## editor (Mar 25, 2020)

liamdhfc said:


> Players are out of contract at end of April and clubs are having to pay their wages already. How will they retain them and carry on paying until an undefined date in the future?


It's suggested here that clubs might have to go on paying some player's wages indefinitely unless something changes.  We'll see a lot of clubs fold if that's the case.


> Right now, we believe that the National League’s position is that they wish to be able to resume the 2019-20 season at some point. The feeder Leagues do not support this because our Clubs do not have the financial resources to continue to honour Player contracts indefinitely.








						BetVictor
					






					www.betvictoristhmian.co.uk


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## Roger D (Mar 26, 2020)

I can't see why a club would have to pay players beyond their contractual end date. 

I think that's a reference to 2019/20 contracts being paid until they expire and the players then having to be re-engaged to ensure clubs can fulfill the remainder of the season, at an unknown date, if it was decided to play on.

Clearly players contracted upto the end of 2020/21 or beyond will have to be paid still.

I can see the potential for a few disputes about end of season bonuses, where they have been written into contracts.


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## pompeydunc (Mar 26, 2020)

Roger D said:


> I can't see why a club would have to pay players beyond their contractual end date.
> 
> I think that's a reference to 2019/20 contracts being paid until they expire and the players then having to be re-engaged to ensure clubs can fulfill the remainder of the season, at an unknown date, if it was decided to play on.
> 
> ...



Bonuses this year?! Lol.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 26, 2020)

EDC said:


> I don't see why supporters should have to donate anything.


Because a tiny community club will die otherwise.

I'm a long way from Dulwich, but do follow Ed's commentary on the club, it is obviously well loved.

Were it not for the distance, I suspect that my team (Hearts) would be in the same league next season.


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## B.I.G (Mar 26, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Because a tiny community club will die otherwise.
> 
> I'm a long way from Dulwich, but do follow Ed's commentary on the club, it is obviously well loved.
> 
> Were it not for the distance, I suspect that my team (Hearts) would be in the same league next season.



Its sweet of you to let EDC know what will happen, he has after all been going to the club longer than editor 

Stay safe Sasaferrato

EDC is the closest version of you we have. Both old and grumpy.


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## Pink Panther (Mar 26, 2020)

pompeydunc said:


> Bonuses this year?! Lol.


I assume Roger was making a generalpoint rather than a referenceto our own club. 



Sasaferrato said:


> Because a tiny community club will die otherwise.


Frankly a lot of people will have greater priorities right now. No one knows just how long this situation will last and many supporters will be worried about their own employment prospects beyond the immediate future.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 26, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> I assume Roger was making a generalpoint rather than a referenceto our own club.
> 
> 
> Frankly a lot of people will have greater priorities right now. No one knows just how long this situation will last and many supporters will be worried about their own employment prospects beyond the immediate future.



Yes, I do appreciate that people have more on their mind at the moment. 

One thing I have seen in my relatively long life is that when slightly precarious things die in a crisis, they don't tend to ever get going again.


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## Roger D (Mar 26, 2020)

The remaining games may yet be played.









						National League 'may be played to finish' - BBC Sport
					

National League executives want to complete the season when the coronavirus situation eases.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## EDC (Mar 26, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Because a tiny community club will die otherwise.
> 
> I'm a long way from Dulwich, but do follow Ed's commentary on the club, it is obviously well loved.
> 
> Were it not for the distance, I suspect that my team (Hearts) would be in the same league next season.


Ridiculous food and drink prices prevent me spending more money when I go to matches so I’m buggered if I’m going to put money in a bucket.


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## B.I.G (Mar 26, 2020)

EDC said:


> Ridiculous food and drink prices prevent me spending more money when I go to matches so I’m buggered if I’m going to put money in a bucket.



The pie and mash with peas is worth £6. How much is it?

As for the fish and chips, pointless.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 26, 2020)

EDC said:


> Ridiculous food and drink prices prevent me spending more money when I go to matches so I’m buggered if I’m going to put money in a bucket.



Fuck me! I've been out curmudgeoned! That doesn't happen often.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 26, 2020)

editor said:


> They need to cancel the leagues now. There's no fucking way this will all blow over in a month or two, and playing behind closed doors is financial suicide for clubs who are already struggling, neither can they honour player contracts indefinitely while this drags on.



Unless the ridiculously rich Premier League 'trickles' some money downwards. I should imagine that in terms of Man U, funding Dulwich would simply be a rounding exercise.


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## B.I.G (Mar 26, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Fuck me! I've been out curmudgeoned! That doesn't happen often.





B.I.G said:


> EDC is the closest version of you we have. Both old and grumpy.



What did I say


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 26, 2020)

A bit off topic, but here in Scotland the situation in the SPL is that Celtic are demanding they be declared champions and the remaining games abandoned, Hearts on the on the other hand are determined that the games should be played. 

If the season is declared ended, Hearts will go down (again), which they obviously want to avoid. Anne Budge, the Hearts owner states that she will sue if the games aren't played. What grounds there are for a law suit... who knows. Even if the games are played there is no guarantee that Hearts won't go down anyway, it has been an abysmal season. 

I wonder if my curmudgeonlyness is a result of supporting Hearts for 5 decades?    It has not been unalloyed joy!


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## StephenMac (Mar 26, 2020)

Steps 3 - 6 expunging the whole season and nobody going down from our division, according to the Non League Paper.


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## EDC (Mar 26, 2020)

Or up I presume.  I feel sorry for Wealdstone.


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## StephenMac (Mar 26, 2020)

EDC said:


> Or up I presume.  I feel sorry for Wealdstone.


Nobody knows about promotion out of NLS. Suspect the FA might have come to a swift decision on those leagues because the affected clubs won't be able to afford the litigation that'll be rife higher up the pyramid if they try the same thing.


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## Al Crane (Mar 26, 2020)

Based on the FA's statement (below), the women's first and reserve team seasons are now confirmed as finished and all results will be expunged. A real shame for the womens teams which have been one of the highlights of this season for me.

*(From the Non League Paper)*

Confirmation of the end of the 2019/20 season. The following statement has this afternoon been released by the FA.

We have been working collaboratively with the National League System (NLS), the women’s football pyramid and the wider grassroots game since the outbreak of COVID-19 on how to conclude the 2019-20 season in the most appropriate way possible.

These are challenging circumstances for English football and all decisions taken are in the best interests of the game and in consultation across key stakeholders. Our primary concern will always be for the safety and welfare of clubs, players, staff, officials, volunteers and supporters during this unprecedented time.

Today’s steps take into account the financial impact during this uncertain period, whilst considering the fairest method on how the sporting outcomes for the season will be decided with the integrity of the leagues in mind.


*National League System*

The NLS and the women’s football pyramid were able to build a consensus amongst their leagues and, where possible, aimed to create a consistent approach across all leagues, whilst taking into account the unique characteristics of each individual league.

As a result, The FA and NLS steps three to six have reached a consensus that their 2019-20 season will now be brought to an end, and all results will be expunged. This will mean no promotion or relegation of clubs between NLS steps three to six, and no promotion to NLS step two. These decisions will also apply to the leagues and clubs who play at NLS step seven.

We will continue to assist and support the National League (NLS steps one and two) to determine the outcome of its 2019-20 season as quickly as possible. The planned implementation of the restructure of the NLS will also now be deferred until the start of the 2021-22 season.

Furthermore, we can now confirm that we have decided that all grassroots football is concluded for the 2019-20 season. This will allow the game to move forward and to commence planning for next season. Our County Football Associations (CFAs) will be supporting grassroots leagues over the coming days to determine how they should close out their current competitions.

Where appropriate, the above decisions will be put to The FA Council for ratification. Throughout this period we continue to seek guidance in respect of the government’s financial support packages relative to COVID-19 and how they are applicable to clubs in the NLS, the women’s football pyramid and the wider grassroots game.”


*Women’s football*

The FA, FA Women’s Board members and the Women’s Football Conference have consulted and reached a consensus regarding the women’s football pyramid.

The FA and the leagues within tiers three to seven have reached a consensus to bring the season to an immediate end and all results will be expunged. This will mean no promotion or relegation of clubs between tiers three to seven. Agreement has also been reached to end the Regional Talent Clubs season, which was due to conclude in April 2020.

We remain in consultation with the Barclays FA Women’s Super League and FA Women’s Championship Board and clubs regarding the most appropriate way to complete the current season, including for the Barclays FA Women’s Super League Academy.

*FA competitions*

With the 2019-20 Emirates FA Cup, Women’s FA Cup, Buildbase FA Trophy and Buildbase FA Vase all at advanced stages, we are reviewing all options as we seek to complete these competitions whenever it is safe and appropriate to do so. Clubs involved are close to reaching a major final and for those clubs and supporters we will do all we can to keep the Wembley dream alive.

In respect of The FA Youth Cup, The FA County Youth Cup, The FA Sunday Cup and The FA Inter-League Cup, we are also seeking to complete these competitions if it is feasible to do so.

We will also continue planning for FA competitions to take place for the 2020-21 season.


----------



## Son of Roy (Mar 28, 2020)

I'm having a quarantine party ..... none of you are invited!


----------



## Roger D (Mar 31, 2020)

National League suspended indefinitely









						National League Statement: Competition Suspended Indefinitely - The Vanarama National League
					

The National League Board met earlier today and has reviewed its prior decision to suspend the competition until at least 3rd April 2020.




					www.thenationalleague.org.uk


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 31, 2020)

No surprise tbh. All the leagues are suspended indefinitely anyway whatever their current stance is.


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 31, 2020)

Good of them to officially confirm that we won't be resuming in 4 days time!


----------



## Cyclodunc (Mar 31, 2020)

_* rips up season ticket in disgust *_


----------



## editor (Mar 31, 2020)

In the Guardian too



> The season was halted on 16 March after the Football Association advised “all grassroots football in England is postponed for the foreseeable future” owing to the coronavirus outbreak, with matches initially scheduled to restart on 3 April. But after a meeting of its board on Tuesday, a statement from the National League confirmed fixtures will be suspended indefinitely.
> 
> “In consideration of the very serious and unprecedented national public health emergency caused by coronavirus, the board has taken the decision to suspend the National League, National League North and National League South competitions indefinitely,” it read.
> 
> “The National League is obtaining specialist legal advice, is consulting regularly with the FA and other stakeholders, and is committed to involving its member clubs in a decision on how best to conclude the 2019-20 season.”











						National League 'indefinitely suspends' season due to coronavirus outbreak
					

The National League, plus its North and South competitions have been suspended indefinitely




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## StephenMac (Apr 9, 2020)




----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 9, 2020)

StephenMac said:


>



That's going to keep everybody in business then. Time for The FA to show they're fit for purpose and support the whole of football properly


----------



## Nivag (Apr 9, 2020)

StephenMac said:


>



Clever way for the national League to recoup any outstanding debt a club owes them.


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 9, 2020)

Nivag said:


> Clever way for the national League to recoup any outstanding debt a club owes them.


 They usually take cost of insurance from it. Remember this is an advance on next season's money not new money from The Premier League.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 9, 2020)

Are the clubs eligible to furlough their players does anyone know?


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 9, 2020)

Yes they can as long as they pay them via PAYE. Will catch out those who use brown envelopes. Still have to pay wages for March and April before claiming it back


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 9, 2020)

liamdhfc said:


> Yes they can as long as they pay them via PAYE. Will catch out those who use brown envelopes. Still have to pay wages for March and April before claiming it back



Unlucky some essex teams 😀👍


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 9, 2020)

liamdhfc said:


> Yes they can as long as they pay them via PAYE. Will catch out those who use brown envelopes. Still have to pay wages for March and April before claiming it back



Thank you.


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 9, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Thank you.


Ben has been a leading player in helping the league and in making sure DHFC is as well positioned as it can be to start again sometime. 
Fed up with clubs moaning about season ending when more people are dying every day than they get as an average attendance


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2020)

liamdhfc said:


> That's going to keep everybody in business then. Time for The FA to show they're fit for purpose and support the whole of football properly


Anyone fancy writing an article for Buzz about this? liamdhfc ?


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 10, 2020)

Once everything is all in place I will make sure there is an update sent for publication here. A few things still to be confirmed.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 17, 2020)

It's being reported the Premier League have told their clubs that play - even behind closed doors - can only resume once widespread testing has been introduced. Everyone involved in the match, players, officials, TV people, medical people and so on, would have to be tested before the match can be played. Difficult to see non-league being able to resume under those restrictions, even if the clubs want to.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 22, 2020)

The 2019/20 National League season is officially over. Relegation and promotion issues still to be finalised.









						National League season ended immediately
					

Clubs vote to end the regular National League season, with promotion and relegation outcomes still to be decided.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 22, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The 2019/20 National League season is officially over. Relegation and promotion issues still to be finalised.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very much the right decision. What many do not realise is that player contracts run until May 2nd or whenever the season end (whichever is later). To wait any longer would mean clubs going to the wall at a rapid rate.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2020)

Good decision: it was pointless trying to come up with any practical workable solution.









						Dulwich Hamlet’s 2019-2020 campaign is over as National League clubs vote to end regular season immediately
					

We all knew it anyway, but Dulwich Hamlet’s season is now officially over after National League clubs voted to end the regular season at its current point, leaving promotion and relegation ou…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 22, 2020)

Any reason why a team like Tonbridge haven't massively got away with one? Their wage bill is covered by the government to an extent far more than their crowds would have done. Corona seems to have saved more clubs at non league than it killed.


----------



## JoeBoy1959 (Apr 22, 2020)

liamdhfc said:


> Very much the right decision. What many do not realise is that player contracts run until May 2nd or whenever the season end (whichever is later). To wait any longer would mean clubs going to the wall at a rapid rate.


Indeed the correct decision. 
But what does it mean re relegation?
If all the other teams with games in hand over us win said games, we're 19th.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 22, 2020)

JoeBoy1959 said:


> Indeed the correct decision.
> But what does it mean re relegation?
> If all the other teams with games in hand over us win said games, we're 19th.



And how may get relegated under normal circumstances?
And what clubs will replace us since there is no promotion from the leagues below?

Apart from that. Definite relegation.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 22, 2020)

I believe two teams were scheduled to get relegated from this division this season. It was already likely to become three down from the two lower tiers due to the Bury situation, with the second bottom team with the most points reprieved. 

However; this may not now happen as the Conference have said they will put various promotion / relegation proposals to the membership to vote on. Realistically this will be impacted by what the EFL proposes re promotion/relegation to/from League Two so there must be the potential that this vote will only occur after that is sorted. (There seems to be growing EFL support for regionalising Divisions 1 & 2 which may complicate the EFL vote). I wouldn't be totally surprised if Barrow are elected into membership of the EFL and the rest of the promotion/relegation scenario is declared void. That would leave the Conference National one team down. I also suspect the proposed reshuffle of league sizes etc will be pushed back one season. 

Where it will start getting interesting is if multiple Conference members go bust, or the Conference loses multiple teams to the EFL to cover teams who have gone bust at that level.


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 22, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> And how may get relegated under normal circumstances?
> And what clubs will replace us since there is no promotion from the leagues below?
> 
> Apart from that. Definite relegation.



There will be no relegation because steps 3-7 already void.

League was to be 2 down and increased to 24 teams. That can't happen now. 

Corona has not saved any clubs as far as I know but may help some clubs cash flow. Remember to Furlough staff everything had to be on PAYE so some clubs will suffer because of their payment methods. 

On our case we have had no income since 14 March and have had to pay 100% of wages for March before recovering  any money.


----------



## Son of Roy (Apr 24, 2020)

Our most famous supporter suggesting people might drink disinfectant


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 24, 2020)

Son of Roy said:


> Our most famous supporter suggesting people might drink disinfectant
> View attachment 208740


If it "kills cold and flu virus" it's got to be good for corona! I use it and I haven't caught the dreaded lurgi.


----------



## Nivag (Apr 24, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> If it "kills cold and flu virus" it's got to be good for corona! I use it and I haven't caught the dreaded lurgi.
> 
> View attachment 208742


And you'll smell of crisp linen, nice.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Apr 25, 2020)

I am quite sleep deprived due to a new baby, but wasn't there a proposal for a National League Midlands floating around earlier this season?


----------



## liamdhfc (Apr 25, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> I am quite sleep deprived due to a new baby, but wasn't there a proposal for a National League Midlands floating around earlier this season?


Don't believe so. The last reorganisation put a step 3 league in the Midlands.


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 25, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> I am quite sleep deprived due to a new baby, but wasn't there a proposal for a National League Midlands floating around earlier this season?


There was due to be an eighth division created for the Midlands at Step 4 for next season, making the pyramid structure from National Division downwards 1-2-4-8 divisions at each of the first four steps, as opposed to the current 1-2-4-7 that superseded 1-2-3-6 a year ago.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Apr 25, 2020)

I'm not surprised at these answers. Been a long night. Cheers guys. 

Can see a case for regional football replacing League 2 and National League tbh but that's another discussion for another time.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 25, 2020)

Some EFL chairmen are already pushing for a change to regional divisions when football returns, and are claiming growing support. If that happens it's difficult to see the National Premier surviving in its current format. 

I suspect the changes won't happen before next season, whenever that happens, due to AGM dates etc.


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 25, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Some EFL chairmen are already pushing for a change to regional divisions when football returns, and are claiming growing support. If that happens it's difficult to see the National Premier surviving in its current format.
> 
> I suspect the changes won't happen before next season, whenever that happens, due to AGM dates etc.


My assumption was that this suggestion is is intended to be a temporary measure for next season to minimise travelling and facilitate two or more regional groups with a smaller fixture list for next season in the likely event that the season doesn't start on time, not a proposal for a long term restructuring of the leagues and divisions.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 25, 2020)

No, several EFL chairmen are talking about a permanent restructure of Divisions One and Two on geographic grounds, in order to reduce costs permanently. 

Whether they can garner enough support remains to be seen.


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 25, 2020)

Roger D said:


> No, several EFL chairmen are talking about a permanent restructure of Divisions One and Two on geographic grounds, in order to reduce costs permanently.
> 
> Whether they can garner enough support remains to be seen.


I'm surprised at that and I'll be even more surprised if it gets majority support but, as you say, it would make regionalisation at National League level look inevitable.


----------



## TonyWalt (Apr 28, 2020)

Chairman’s statement to fans, supporters and stakeholders 28/04/20
					

The latest from the Chairman, Tuesday 28th April 2020




					www.pitchero.com


----------



## Roger D (Apr 30, 2020)

Various media outlets are reporting EFL club captains have been asked to tell their teams' players the season is unlikely to finish. No decision yet on promotion/relegation.

Also, they don't expect spectators to be permitted at that level into January. 

Clearly both points could impact the National Leagues.


----------



## scousedom (Apr 30, 2020)

State my bias here up front: I want 19. 

But I just don’t get the declaring seasons over thing. Making a decision doesn’t alter what will happen with Coronavirus. It might give a semblance of a feeling of control for five minutes, but it won’t actually give you any control over it 

The reality is this is with us for many more months if not years. Any 20/21 season will likely be started late, if at all, and will be regularly interrupted. This time next year 20/21 will at best be probably half played and therefore - by precedent - cancelled. Result? Two years, one season 3/4 played, one 1/2 played, all results expunged. Whereas if people just waited, said “Finish 19/20. See where we are then” you would at least get one season done.


----------



## Roger D (May 1, 2020)

My understanding is that contracted players at this level are entitled to paid until the last fixture of the 2019/20  season. If the old season were permitted to carry on until completed, many clubs would be in major financial difficulty.

Sadly it does look like 2020/21 will be just as challenging. I suspect we'll see far fewer contracted players and much lower wages at this level next season.


----------



## scousedom (May 1, 2020)

Roger D said:


> My understanding is that contracted players at this level are entitled to paid until the last fixture of the 2019/20  season. If the old season were permitted to carry on until completed, many clubs would be in major financial difficulty.
> 
> Sadly it does look like 2020/21 will be just as challenging. I suspect we'll see far fewer contracted players and much lower wages at this level next season.


Yes, sorry, understand this issue at this level. But there needs to be a way to roll results if not rolling contracts in future. A lot of new contracts in other spheres - shop rental agreements for example - now contain pandemic clauses. If this were adopted in football contracts you could avoid the issue of losing potentially consecutive half finished seasons. The clause would kick in, reducing the wage costs, with no need therefore to write off 30 odd games.


----------



## blueheaven (May 1, 2020)

scousedom said:


> State my bias here up front: I want 19.
> 
> But I just don’t get the declaring seasons over thing. Making a decision doesn’t alter what will happen with Coronavirus. It might give a semblance of a feeling of control for five minutes, but it won’t actually give you any control over it
> 
> The reality is this is with us for many more months if not years. Any 20/21 season will likely be started late, if at all, and will be regularly interrupted. This time next year 20/21 will at best be probably half played and therefore - by precedent - cancelled. Result? Two years, one season 3/4 played, one 1/2 played, all results expunged. Whereas if people just waited, said “Finish 19/20. See where we are then” you would at least get one season done.



Logistically I don't really see how you'd be able to do this fairly. By the time clubs are able to play the remaining games, their personnel could be completely different due to existing contracts expiring and pre-contracts kicking in... and of course there's still the transfer window to open, too. Would you allow teams to play their remaining games with potentially completely different squads? To me that just wouldn't be fair and would make the whole season invalid in a lot of people's eyes anyway.


----------



## Pink Panther (May 1, 2020)

blueheaven said:


> Logistically I don't really see how you'd be able to do this fairly. By the time clubs are able to play the remaining games, their personnel could be completely different due to existing contracts expiring and pre-contracts kicking in... and of course there's still the transfer window to open, too. Would you allow teams to play their remaining games with potentially completely different squads? To me that just wouldn't be fair and would make the whole season invalid in a lot of people's eyes anyway.


Yes, even with the benefit of hindsight I don't see how you can contrive a situation whereby everyone resumes with a similar squad for the final seven rounds of matches after a break of maybe 6 months or more.  Clubs with a chance of promotion would be in pole position to cherry pick all the best players from the also rans, or possibly from each other, if some of them are better placed to pay the best wages than others.  I'm sure some some clubs simply won't be in a position to sustain their pre-lockdown playing budgets under any circumstances.  There may be a much wider disparity between the haves and the have nots whenever football resumes.


----------



## scousedom (May 1, 2020)

blueheaven said:


> Logistically I don't really see how you'd be able to do this fairly. By the time clubs are able to play the remaining games, their personnel could be completely different due to existing contracts expiring and pre-contracts kicking in... and of course there's still the transfer window to open, too. Would you allow teams to play their remaining games with potentially completely different squads? To me that just wouldn't be fair and would make the whole season invalid in a lot of people's eyes anyway.


The transfer window doesn’t have to open. In fact FIFA have already said it can be postponed. 

I’m just saying that if you set the precedent that you cancel a 75% complete season, then given this thing is going to be with us for literally years you’re probably setting a precedent not to have any completed league seasons until I dunno 2023. Rushing onto next season only makes sense if you can guarantee it will complete. And you can’t. So you may as well just finish the current one and see where you are after that.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 1, 2020)

scousedom said:


> The transfer window doesn’t have to open. In fact FIFA have already said it can be postponed.



True but at any club from about League 1 down, contracts for most (and all at some clubs I expect) players will be expiring. It's only really at the top level where most players are under contract and move by transfer, lower down their contracts expire and they try and find a club to take them on. And clubs are not going to be able to extend them on the same terms because they're not going to have the funding. So I think all you'd achieve by delaying the transfer window is a situation where clubs aren't able to put out a team at all.


----------



## Roger D (May 1, 2020)

It now seems probable that non-league would not be permitted for  play for several months, even if it wanted to. 

The full time players would be made effectively unemployed by a virus clause. I suspect the football camps etc is very much their secondary income for most. They may need to get a "proper job" to pay their rent / mortgage if a virus clause kicked in. 

Not sure they'd be too happy to give up a "proper job" to resume a contract with DHFC in, say, September, knowing they would be out of contract in a month and re-engagement offers were likely to be substantially lower. 

I suspect a few would say stuff it, knowing they are unlikely to be sued for breach of contract due to cost.  Sporting legitimacy would be out of the window.


----------



## Roger D (May 3, 2020)

After getting us through being homeless and now this, Ben Clasper is arguably fast emerging as the most important behind the scenes person at the Hamlet since Pa.









						Dulwich Hamlet almost go bust - as chairman explains financial juggling - Southwark News
					

'Had that vote gone the other way this week, I’d be telling you that the club is out of business'




					www.southwarknews.co.uk


----------



## liamdhfc (May 5, 2020)

The club is very lucky to have Ben Clasper steering it forward. He always acts in the best interests of the club. Club is on solid financial footing for any relaunch because of Ben's hard work.


----------



## Roger D (May 6, 2020)

Surprise surprise, no final decision on what the National League are going to do until the EFL makes a final decision.









						National League to wait on EFL decision
					

The outcome of the National League season will be shaped by the English Football League, with no decision expected imminently.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (May 6, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Surprise surprise, no final decision on what the National League are going to do until the EFL makes a final decision.


And the EFL will keep delaying until the Premier League makes a firm decision. We now seem to have clubs in the Premier League relegation battle arguing that relegation should be scrapped if they're denied home advantage by using neutral grounds to complete the fixtures. I just don't get that argument. Won't their opponents also be denied home advantage for the away fixtures?


----------



## steeplejack (May 6, 2020)

There's a hugely frustrating logjam at National League level at present.

I can see Barrow going up, but _only because_ there's a gap in the league with Bury's demise last term. Had Bury somehow survived I don't think there'd have been promotion at all. Hard to see any promotions or relegations being enacted tbh.

Impressive response from the Dulwich officials to the crisis, I must say.


----------



## blueheaven (May 6, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> And the EFL will keep delaying until the Premier League makes a firm decision. We now seem to have clubs in the Premier League relegation battle arguing that relegation should be scrapped if they're denied home advantage by using neutral grounds to complete the fixtures. I just don't get that argument. Won't their opponents also be denied home advantage for the away fixtures?



I guess it could be argued that their opponents might have had home advantage for easier fixtures, depending on who everyone still has left to play.

Basically, whatever way they now call it, there's no solution that is going to be fair for every club. The circumstances are going to create winners and losers, and the losers will always feel hard done by.


----------



## Roger D (May 6, 2020)

It is being reported that League One and Two clubs will vote on ending their season next week, and are expected to agree to ending the season now. (Many clubs feel they can't afford to pull players off furlough, reduced wages etc to play behind closed doors.)

The expectation is Stevenage won't be relegated into the National League.

If that is all confirmed, the National League should be able to make their final decisions.

The Championship will be excluded from the vote as they need to see what the Premier League do.


----------



## Nivag (May 6, 2020)

Looks like the Bundesliga will start again soon








						Bundesliga to resume this month
					

Chancellor Angela Merkel confirms the German Bundesliga season can resume this month.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Roger D (May 8, 2020)

The Dutch Health Minister expects football to be behind closed doors there until a 
 vaccine exists. It could be a very long close season at this level if the UK goes down the same route 









						Coronavirus: No fans at Dutch games until there is a vaccine, says health minister
					

Supporters will not be able to attend football matches in the Netherlands until there is a coronavirus vaccine, Dutch health minister Hugo de Jonge says.




					www.skysports.com


----------



## Roger D (May 15, 2020)

League Two season over, though they may still have play offs, with the table probably decided on a weighted points per game basis. Stevenage probably won't be relegated. That is all to be confirmed. League One yet to decide.

Edited to say, all the above is subject to FA approval.









						League Two clubs vote to end season
					

The League Two season is brought to an early conclusion after talks between clubs and the English Football League.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Cat Daisy (May 16, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Stevenage probably won't be relegated. That is all to be confirmed. League One yet to decide.



On the pitch, they have deserved to go down. Off the pitch, they have been doing some sterling community work during the coronavirus crisis (Coronavirus Community Careline nears sixth full week in operation).


----------



## Roger D (May 17, 2020)

A Shots fan I know has told me it's being reported the Conference National and Division Two may merge to form Division Two North and South next season. Apparently it's one of a few options being thrashed around. 

The previous idea of Divisions One and Two merging and splitting North and South is now thought unlikely due to the bigger clubs in Division One wanting to finish 2019/20, some of the leading figures in Division Two still want to regionalise


----------



## scousedom (May 18, 2020)

Greater regionalisation (if that’s the word) higher up the pyramid has to make sense, both from a costs and a disease spread point of view. 
Also I think the leagues need to put in place strict rules for how things are decided in the event of interruption so everyone knows going in what the protocol is. Eg for a 42 game season you might say: less than 10 games played, void it: 10-20 played get to 21 and call it; 21-31 played call it as at 21; 31+ played complete it. This would also need the fixtures to be changed so you play everyone once in the first half and second half, but that should happen anyway imo.


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (May 25, 2020)

I know this isn't directly related to us, and this has probably been said/written to spur the FA and Premier League into action, but interesting to see the Huddersfield chairman predict that 50-60 clubs could go bust because of this pandemic.









						'Football pyramid will be destroyed'
					

The English football pyramid will be destroyed unless the game starts to plan beyond the 2019-20 season, says Huddersfield owner Phil Hodgkinson.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




He doesn't specify if he just means league clubs, or if he's including non-league, but I wonder what that will mean for the clubs that survive if there are wholesale closures? Will they have to restructure the leagues?

I would be surprised if it does lead to the numbers that he mentions because I think the PL will finally have to part with some of it's vast sums of wealth, but I do wonder if there's enough money to save 50 clubs from going bang.


----------



## B.I.G (May 25, 2020)

Let them go bust. Why should the premier league spend money on not only funding its own player’s unnecessarily high wages but also the unnecessarily high wages of players lower down the pyramid.


----------



## Roger D (Jun 3, 2020)

Been contacted by a Shots fan I know.  Apparently the league have told the club's that they won't be restarting on August 8th and that the season will not start until spectators can be admitted.

Not exactly a surprise.


----------



## Nivag (Jun 3, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Been contacted by a Shots fan I know.  Apparently the league have told the club's that they won't be restarting on August 8th and that the season will not start until spectators can be admitted.
> 
> Not exactly a surprise.


I'm guessing it's harder for the lower league clubs to enforce a isolation of players for all the games and get them tested regularly.
If that's not the problem then the FA could give all the club's a budget to setup an online stream of the games and get revenue from that.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Jun 3, 2020)

Nivag said:


> I'm guessing it's harder for the lower league clubs to enforce a isolation of players for all the games and get them tested regularly.
> If that's not the problem then the FA could give all the club's a budget to setup an online stream of the games and get revenue from that.


Given lads at our level probably all have second jobs then it's likely a lot harder. Plus as most have smaller squads (barring our cast of thousands), you could get a few with COVID in the squad and face the issue of teams not being able to fulfill their fixtures.


----------



## Nivag (Jun 3, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> Given lads at our level probably all have second jobs then it's likely a lot harder. Plus as most have smaller squads (barring our cast of thousands), you could get a few with COVID in the squad and face the issue of teams not being able to fulfill their fixtures.


Get ya boots cleaned, you could be needed!! 😁


----------



## scousedom (Jun 4, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Been contacted by a Shots fan I know.  Apparently the league have told the club's that they won't be restarting on August 8th and that the season will not start until spectators can be admitted.
> 
> Not exactly a surprise.


Hopefully the League will use the time to agree a protocol for how to establish League positions in the event of future curtailed seasons so you don't get weeks and months of uncertainty, brinkmanship, media leaks etc. You can kind of understand them not having a plan in place last year (as no other league in the world seemed to), but to start a new season without agreeing a process would be unforgiveable. 
As I said above, I'd favour a system where for a 42 game season you might say: less than 10 games played, void it: 10-20 played get to 21 and call it; 21-31 played call it as at 21; 31+ played complete it. And along with that, change the scheduling so you play everyone once in the first half and second half of the season.


----------



## editor (Jun 4, 2020)

I really can't see any kind of crowded sports events taking place in the next four months, minimum - probably longer.


----------



## Roger D (Jun 4, 2020)

It may be worth noting the wording seems to be when crowds are admitted and not when capacity crowds can be admitted.

I just wonder if non league football may try to return with reduced capacities (blocking off seats, reducing turnstile queues, outside bars not inside etc.) If so, it would be a bigger challenge for the Hamlet than most non league teams given the crowd levels. Clubs will be keen to earn some revenue and this route may appeal to many. 

I stress that is speculation, I have no inside knowledge. I certainly won't be surprised if the likes of the Combined Counties League are playing before the Hamlet. (Possibly without Jersey. Even if teams can play, transport to away games may be a challenge with limited capacity on buses, potential restrictions on car sharing etc, again pointing to geographically limited leagues being in a better place.)


----------



## Cyclodunc (Jun 4, 2020)

Virtual. Reality.

Problem solved.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Jun 4, 2020)

Nivag said:


> Get ya boots cleaned, you could be needed!! 😁


Haven't played 90 minutes in a long time...had thought at 36 with 2 Cruciate bursts behind me I would not be needed, but might have to get back in training!


----------



## blueheaven (Jun 5, 2020)

Roger D said:


> It may be worth noting the wording seems to be when crowds are admitted and not when capacity crowds can be admitted.
> 
> I just wonder if non league football may try to return with reduced capacities (blocking off seats, reducing turnstile queues, outside bars not inside etc.) If so, it would be a bigger challenge for the Hamlet than most non league teams given the crowd levels. Clubs will be keen to earn some revenue and this route may appeal to many.
> 
> I stress that is speculation, I have no inside knowledge. I certainly won't be surprised if the likes of the Combined Counties League are playing before the Hamlet. (Possibly without Jersey. Even if teams can play, transport to away games may be a challenge with limited capacity on buses, potential restrictions on car sharing etc, again pointing to geographically limited leagues being in a better place.)



Even if all of these issues can be overcome, players are only going to be able to actually play the games if they're being regularly tested - are non-league clubs really going to be able to afford to do that? Personally I find it very hard to see any contact sports re-starting for many months to come, other than at the highest levels where there's more money sloshing around. I don't see how any non-league, youth or any sort of grassroots football is going to be possible.


----------



## Roger D (Jun 5, 2020)

The current guidance from Hampshire FA is that they hope grassroots football can resume training in early September with competitive football late September/early October. I presume this is based on FA advice but can't be sure.

Clearly that is best case scenario and it may move back. Those dates certainly wouldn't include DHFC.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 5, 2020)

blueheaven said:


> Even if all of these issues can be overcome, players are only going to be able to actually play the games if they're being regularly tested - are non-league clubs really going to be able to afford to do that? Personally I find it very hard to see any contact sports re-starting for many months to come, other than at the highest levels where there's more money sloshing around. I don't see how any non-league, youth or any sort of grassroots football is going to be possible.



I could see actually playing games being deemed acceptably low risk much sooner, through some combination of scientific evidence and Boris Johnson's crossing his fingers and winging it approach. It might involve changing outside or something but I think purely amateur level games could be back fairly soon. Lower league/upper non-league is probably the hardest level to get going though because they're dependent on the crowds, there's no TV or very little TV income and players aren't playing for free. And tbh at the level of clubs like Dulwich if there isn't a crowd then what's the point anyway? Whose benefit is it for?


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Jun 5, 2020)

blueheaven said:


> Even if all of these issues can be overcome, players are only going to be able to actually play the games if they're being regularly tested - are non-league clubs really going to be able to afford to do that? Personally I find it very hard to see any contact sports re-starting for many months to come, other than at the highest levels where there's more money sloshing around. I don't see how any non-league, youth or any sort of grassroots football is going to be possible.


In Scotland the SFA appear to have got a wealthy benefactor to cover the cost of the testing. Think he's stumping up about £2 million. Do the English FA know any city boys into non-league football?


----------



## pompeydunc (Jun 8, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The current guidance from Hampshire FA is that they hope grassroots football can resume training in early September with competitive football late September/early October. I presume this is based on FA advice but can't be sure.
> 
> Clearly that is best case scenario and it may move back. Those dates certainly wouldn't include DHFC.



That's odd. London FA advice is permitting groups of six to train together as of start of this month, while maintaining social distancing. Multiple groups of six are permitted too, so you can split squad into different groups and be on same site. They have not said anything about a possible restart date, but the CEO is part of the National FA's project restart group. Apparently, the National League are making plans for a restart in parallel to this, and the expectation is that other lower leagues will take the outcome of this as their lead.


----------



## Roger D (Jun 8, 2020)

I think the London FA statement is possibly  based on the government paper dated, from memory, May 25th that applies to elite athletes.

The Hampshire FA statement is aimed at non elite athletes.

Either that or there's a bit of confusion out there. Which wouldn't be totally surprising.


----------



## AveryDave (Jun 11, 2020)

Seeing more and more players being signed or retained in the National leagues and beyond in the pyramid - some dating back weeks. Without knowing when football at those levels is going to be able to return it seems crazy that teams are committing to salaries and costs when there's no guarantee as to when they'll be in a position to generate revenues again.

I'm wondering whether clauses are being added into contracts to set a salary dependency on actually playing games (if that's even allowable), or less prudent clubs are banking on bailouts if they run into trouble perhaps?


----------



## Pink Panther (Jun 11, 2020)

AveryDave said:


> Seeing more and more players being signed or retained in the National leagues and beyond in the pyramid - some dating back weeks. Without knowing when football at those levels is going to be able to return it seems crazy that teams are committing to salaries and costs when there's no guarantee as to when they'll be in a position to generate revenues again.
> 
> I'm wondering whether clauses are being added into contracts to set a salary dependency on actually playing games (if that's even allowable), or less prudent clubs are banking on bailouts if they run into trouble perhaps?


Contracts have an elastic finish date to allow for participation or otherwise in the play-offs, so presumably they can be worded to commece on the first day of the league season. Whoever you sign for, no one else in the same league (or probably any other English league except the Premier League) will be starting any earlier and you can probably have a release clause in the event of a player getting an offer from overseas.


----------



## Roger D (Jun 11, 2020)

I believe contracts signed for 2020/21 now only come into effect 30 days before the official restart date so no money is going out now, unless a signing on fee is involved. (Not true for players signing short term contracts to finish 2019/20 with their current employers where they are playing on.) 30 days seems to be the norm but I think the FA also accept 15 and 45 days.

Quite how clubs are able to make any sort of realistic budget right now seems to be a very legitimate question.

There will be a lot of players dropping down levels in the immediate future as wage levels above drop (making part time more appealing) or simply due to clubs reducing the size of their squad. I'm surprised so many players and clubs are committing this early


----------



## Al Crane (Jun 11, 2020)

Worth having a look at Ollie Bayliss' Twitter timeline as he's done a pretty good job of keeping up to date with what he understands is going on in non league. Today's update suggests some matters which affect National South.



Further update:


----------



## Roger D (Jun 11, 2020)

A friend at Shots is hearing the league may start in September even if it is behind closed doors or with slashed attendances. (An un-named league member told the Beeb that with current rules they would have to cut capacity by 94%.)

Utter madness if true. It seems protecting the promotion / relegation link to the EFL may be considered more important than the financial safety of the league members. 

I sincerely hope this turns out to be erroneous information.

Edited to make clear the comment was from a Shots fan who heard a whisper and not s Shots official.


----------



## Roger D (Jun 12, 2020)

A September start with limited crowds is being flagged by a few journalists now. It looks like there may be something in this


----------



## Pink Panther (Jun 12, 2020)

Roger D said:


> A friend at Shots is hearing the league may start in September even if it is behind closed doors or with slashed attendances. (An un-named league member told the Beeb that with current rules they would have to cut capacity by 94%.)


So if this is correct we could be restricted to admitting no more than around 200 spectators, i.e. approximately 6% of a 3,300 capacity.  I guess as a 5 year season ticket holder (with three seasons left to run) I would be guaranteed admission, but it wouldn't be much fun from a personal point of view.  How on earth is the club supposed to finance itself under those conditions when we budgeted for (and achieved) an attendance of ten times that figure this season?  We'd be harder hit than anyone else.  Only Maidstone had an average attendance of much more than half ours and they have a larger ground, although even they would be limited to around 300 under the same rule.  It would be completely unviable, clubs wouldn't be able to pay players at all without the support of a sugar daddy.

Most clubs face a struggle to attract more supporters in order to break even as it is.  It's just not worth restarting until we can fill the grounds properly, and that surely applies to every level below the Premier League.


----------



## Nivag (Jun 12, 2020)

We could always do what Trump is doing for his rallies and sign a disclaimer..


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## Roger D (Jun 12, 2020)

The % reduction would vary by ground design. The fact one club faces a 94% cut doesn't mean Dulwich do.

However; I think it's clear that unless the 2m rule goes the reduction would be substantial and there's no likelihood of the club being permitted to admit the typical crowd seen in recent times.

As for how clubs are supposed to make it work economically. I don't think the authorities care. This is being done to preserve the promotion / relegation link to the EFL which seems to be more important to them than the solvency of member clubs.

If true, it's madness.


----------



## Pink Panther (Jun 12, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The % reduction would vary by ground design. The fact one club faces a 94% cut doesn't mean Dulwich do.
> 
> However; I think it's clear that unless the 2m rule goes the reduction would be substantial and there's no likelihood of the club being permitted to admit the typical crowd seen in recent times.
> 
> ...


This 2 metre rule thing is madness. I live ten minutes walk from Zone 1 in Central London.  I literally haven't touched another human being in 3 months.  I haven't actually met anyone I really know in that time.  I'm mentally cracking up.   People can't live their lives without going within 2 metres of strangers.  ​Sod coronavirus, I'm having a mental breakdown.  One of my closest friends was sectioned last month after taking an overdose.  People have been dying from viruses for years, thousands of people die from "normal" flu each year.  Idiots go to work, or the pub, or anywhere else, coughing and sneezing on buses and trains and spreading potentially fatal germs.  It doesn't need a massive lockdown, it just needs everyone to be sensible and considerate.


----------



## TonyWalt (Jun 13, 2020)

Hopefully our government will come into line with the WHO Advice, adopted by many other countries who have handled the virus much better than the UK. 
Reducing it to 1m would mean we could at least get past the turnstile operators without breaking the guidance!


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## Cat Daisy (Jun 13, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> So if this is correct we could be restricted to admitting no more than around 200 spectators, i.e. approximately 6% of a 3,300 capacity.  I guess as a 5 year season ticket holder (with three seasons left to run) I would be guaranteed admission, but it wouldn't be much fun from a personal point of view.  How on earth is the club supposed to finance itself under those conditions when we budgeted for (and achieved) an attendance of ten times that figure this season?  We'd be harder hit than anyone else.  Only Maidstone had an average attendance of much more than half ours and they have a larger ground, although even they would be limited to around 300 under the same rule.  It would be completely unviable, clubs wouldn't be able to pay players at all without the support of a sugar daddy.
> 
> Most clubs face a struggle to attract more supporters in order to break even as it is.  It's just not worth restarting until we can fill the grounds properly, and that surely applies to every level below the Premier League.



At the next level down, a lot of clubs might work in theory if it was 10% of a 3300 capacity (or even a higher %age if we see the 1 metre distancing forced through). But in practice it will be about the detail of ensuring distancing behind the goal, in the bar, in the toilets, etc without paying a fortune for extra staff / security. 
But, yes, clubs who have been successful in attracting supporters get penalised for that success. And if the business model is based on having the place packed out, then the business model will have to change. And that means player numbers and player wages. There will be some interesting chats behind closed doors! Maybe a return to amateur football?


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## Jimbob73 (Jun 17, 2020)

Any news from the club, nothing major since April 28th, just expected an update even to say there's no update - if you know what I mean!?


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## Roger D (Jun 17, 2020)

Tables on a points per game basis, Wealdstone promoted. (Subject to ratification.)









						Barrow promoted after National League vote
					

Barrow are promoted to the English Football League after National League clubs vote to end the 2019-20 season.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Roger D (Jun 19, 2020)

The FA seemed to have ruled that the steps where admission charging is the norm must start together and that spectators must be present. The format of the season will depend on when it starts.

The linked notes from a meeting for Step 5 and 6 clubs is worth a read if interested in the current thinking. 



			https://www.swpleague.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/SUMMARY-OF-FA-MEETING-TODAY-WITH-STEP-5.pdf


----------



## bkbk (Jun 21, 2020)

Terras fans, we need you!
					

TERRAS FANS WE NEED YOU!! The last few weeks have been full of ups and downs with regards to the play-off situation. Finally, now we have the decision that we will be able to take part, albeit not …




					uptheterras.co.uk
				






> *TERRAS FANS WE NEED YOU!!*
> 
> The last few weeks have been full of ups and downs with regards to the play-off situation. Finally, now we have the decision that we will be able to take part, albeit not in the way we would have liked, but at least we now have the chance to compete. While the club is in a good financial place, the play-offs come at a large additional financial cost. These not only comprise the cost of testing but also the associated costs that we face in order to be compliant with the Government’s COVID-19 regulations. We obviously want to give Mark; the players and you our brilliant supporters every opportunity to build on the success this season deserves.
> 
> ...



Weymouth are asking for donations as their playoff campaign is expected to cost them ~£50k


----------



## Pink Panther (Jun 21, 2020)

bkbk said:


> Terras fans, we need you!
> 
> 
> TERRAS FANS WE NEED YOU!! The last few weeks have been full of ups and downs with regards to the play-off situation. Finally, now we have the decision that we will be able to take part, albeit not …
> ...


This is much the same as our own campaign two years ago to keep the promotion push going when we were locked out of Champion Hill, but £50k is a big gamble just to have a shot at winning two play off matches.  I still think it's daft to have play offs when the regular season was abandoned.


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2020)

Third full grounds and no away fans? 











						The number of fans who could be let into National League stadiums next season - Fan Banter
					

The number of fans who could be let into National League stadiums next season has been seemingly revealed by the AFC Fylde owner. After finally getting a date on when the playoffs can get underway, chiefs at others clubs are desperate to find out when the new season can kick off. However, for it...




					fanbanter.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (Jul 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Third full grounds and no away fans?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is pure speculation. It's one club owner pulling numbers out of the air because his club only fills one third of its capacity anyway, therefore it suits him.

I don't see how you can ban away supporters unless matches are all-ticket with sales restricted to personal callers at the home ground.


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## Roger D (Jul 14, 2020)

I've heard 30% muttered by people at a couple of other NL clubs. I don't think it is set is stone at all but I suspect it is a bit more than speculation. This may well be the current modelling/expectation.


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## blueheaven (Jul 15, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> I don't see how you can ban away supporters unless matches are all-ticket with sales restricted to personal callers at the home ground.



I think in our case matches will have to become all-ticket, although presumably sold online rather than sold physically at the ground. There's no way we can go back to having long queues of people waiting outside the ground to pay at the gate 10 minutes before kick-off. Although with a restricted capacity the problem probably solves itself, as there might only be enough space for season ticket holders anyway.


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## Pink Panther (Jul 15, 2020)

Roger D said:


> I've heard 30% muttered by people at a couple of other NL clubs. I don't think it is set is stone at all but I suspect it is a bit more than speculation. This may well be the current modelling/expectation.


Hamlet season ticket holders were sent an email a couple of weeks back that stated the following:

_"We have missed your company at Champion Hill and as this week should have seen the start of pre-season it is clear the shutdown will impact not one but two seasons. Sadly we have no information on next season other than confirmation that it will not be before September and even that remains a best case scenario. *Contrary to some of the online debates there has been no formal discussion yet on games being played in front of reduced capacities or waiting until it is safe for full re-opening.*_

_We wanted to update you all as you may have seen other clubs already selling season tickets to help fund them through the shutdown but we were not comfortable going down that route in case reduced capacities are considered as our season ticket numbers exceed some of the rumoured numbers that may be allowed."_

Obviously discussions, formal or otherwise, may have taken place since then but it remains little more than speculation until there's a proper announcement from a reliable source.


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## Roger D (Jul 15, 2020)

Aldershot have today confirmed they are currently in discussions with various bodies, including the football authorities.

They have modelled 12 scenarios to date, most permit them to fit in last season's average gate in but not all. (From memory they had smaller crowds and a highest capacity/footprint.) 

The statement makes it clear there is not yet a signed off % crowd capacity reduction or an agreed restart date.


----------



## tomwi (Jul 15, 2020)

For what it’s worth, the Oval are expecting to have 8000 fans in for evening T20 games in August or September. This is approx 1/3 of their capacity.

Different sport etc caveats apply.


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## Roger D (Jul 16, 2020)

It's also all seated which makes enforcing distancing easier.

A few countries are proposing to allow football back with a higer % of seats in use than the % allowed to stand. I am told - but haven't checked - that Ireland is proposing 33% of seats and 20% of standing capacity. 

Obviously that's a different country but it flags up that it may not be a straight % of ground capacity permitted whenever football re-starts.


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## Jimbob73 (Jul 16, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> Hamlet season ticket holders were sent an email a couple of weeks back that stated the following:



Me, or my dad, haven't received anything?? How can I get the email, did it say anything else?


----------



## Roger D (Jul 17, 2020)

Not much detail yet but it seems the government are hoping to have fans back in stadiums from October. No indication as to what % of capacity will be permitted. Lots of caveats, understandably given what could happen between now and then.









						Fans could return in October - Johnson
					

Spectators could be able to watch sport inside stadiums in England again from October, says Prime Minister Boris Johnson.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## tomwi (Jul 18, 2020)

__





						The website for the English football association, the Emirates FA Cup and the England football team
					






					www.thefa.com
				




Nothing about fans but September seems to be the target.


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## Roger D (Jul 18, 2020)

The National League System guidance has been released by the FA.

It states the first possible date for competitive football at this level is 5/9. However with the government suggesting yesterday that it's no spectators until at least October that seems optimistic. 

The only real guidance about spectators is that nothing has been decided and that clubs should work out how to manage the likes of reduced capacities and social distancing in case they are needed.



			https://www.swpleague.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/NATIONAL-LEAGUE-SYSTEM-CLUB-GUIDANCE-FOR-RETURNING-TO-FOOTBALL-18-July-2020-Low-res.pdf


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## Roger D (Jul 23, 2020)

There may be an issue looming for an October return. The Telegraph is reporting the Football Safety Officers are not happy with the current plans. They are citing recent events at Anfield and Elland Road as evidence it may not be workable. 

The article is behind a paywall and I didn't read it all before it got blocked however; I did spot a line saying they were particularly concerned about lower league and non league. I presume this is due to there being terracing at those levels.


----------



## scousedom (Jul 23, 2020)

Roger D said:


> There may be an issue looming for an October return. The Telegraph is reporting the Football Safety Officers are not happy with the current plans. They are citing recent events at Anfield and Elland Road as evidence it may not be workable.
> 
> The article is behind a paywall and I didn't read it all before it got blocked however; I did spot a line saying they were particularly concerned about lower league and non league. I presume this is due to there being terracing at those levels.


Soz abar us.


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## pompeydunc (Jul 24, 2020)

tomwi said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This applies to Step 7 and below only. The Kent County League confirmed yesterday that they will restart on 5 September with supporters. All clubs need to publish a COVID risk action plan before then.

A restart date for Steps 1-6 (National League System) has yet to be agreed, as it will only restart with supporters.


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## Roger D (Jul 28, 2020)

Scheduled return October 3rd, with reduced capacities.









						National League set for October start
					

The National League informs clubs that their 2020-21 season is scheduled to start on 3 October.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (Jul 28, 2020)

pompeydunc said:


> This applies to Step 7 and below only. The Kent County League confirmed yesterday that they will restart on 5 September with supporters. All clubs need to publish a COVID risk action plan before then.
> 
> A restart date for Steps 1-6 (National League System) has yet to be agreed, as it will only restart with supporters.


Southern Counties East League has also announced 5 September as the date for their first league fixtures, so presumably this applies to other Step 5/6 leagues. 



Roger D said:


> Scheduled return October 3rd, with reduced capacities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A government advisor for the return of elite sport, interviewed on BBC News yesterday, stated that a return to full capacity won't happen until at least the new year and probably not before this time next year. I guess that means 50% maximum until all restrictions are lifted. (Any more than that in seated stands means people some sitting in adjacent seats, in which case you might as well have all seats occupied.)

Not good news given that our current business model depends on average attendance of at least 60% of capacity.


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## Roger D (Jul 28, 2020)

There's a DRAFT green guide update doing the rounds. The exact % of seats usable depends on their size, legroom, aisle width etc. The draft models four examples, from 17% to 33% seat useability. This is reduced if you have pinch points elsewhere etc.

No calculated examples for terracing but there will clearly be a major impact there too.


----------



## pinknblue (Jul 28, 2020)

Given that the vast majority of our income is from match day tickets and bar takings, how can we possibly survive if we're only allowed 500 supporters in the ground (taking the 20% of capacity figure). In such a scenario, either players will have to take a massive wage cut or else we'll have to be uncompetitive next season.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 28, 2020)

pinknblue said:


> Given that the vast majority of our income is from match day tickets and bar takings, how can we possibly survive if we're only allowed 500 supporters in the ground (taking the 20% of capacity figure). In such a scenario, either players will have to take a massive wage cut or else we'll have to be uncompetitive next season.



Yes, if that's what it takes. If we're uncompetitive then so be it tbh. Everyone will be in the same boat to some degree though, players will be finding wage offers in short supply and wages will be lower across the board, so who knows how it will pan out.

Maybe Gavin can unearth some youth players like he used to.


----------



## Roger D (Jul 28, 2020)

There seems to be a trend of players signing for clubs near their home, suggesting wage cuts are biting both at this level and above. Dulwich's geographical location may be helpful if that is true. There will still be a lot of players chasing deals in the next few weeks.

Clearly Dulwich, with a high % of their capacity coming through the gate and no benefactor, will face a substantial challenge. 

If we have to cut our cloth to protect the long term viability of the club, so be it. There's no point battling to get a 125 year lease and then overspending and getting liquidated.


----------



## Nivag (Jul 28, 2020)

Roger D said:


> If we have to cut our cloth to protect the long term viability of the club, so be it. There's no point battling to get a 125 year lease and then overspending and getting liquidated.


Spot on with this.


----------



## bkbk (Jul 28, 2020)

100%. I wonder if the reduced budget will impact the ability to be 'full-time' and all the extra cost I would assume that brings.


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## Pink Panther (Jul 28, 2020)

bkbk said:


> 100%. I wonder if the reduced budget will impact the ability to be 'full-time' and all the extra cost I would assume that brings.


I would think that's inevitable. It sounds like Hemel Hempstead have been recruiting from the bargain basement, while Tonbridge were reported to have serious cashflow problems even before the pandemic struck, and I'm sure there will be others. Some of the entrepreneurs who bankroll other clubs may not have so much spare cash as before depending how the pandemic has affected their businesses. On the plus side it'll only be two down again, as per last season before the level below was voided.


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## StephenMac (Jul 29, 2020)

I think the season to come is just one to be got through. Yeah, we'll be badly affected by the reduction in capacity but so will some others. And, as Roger has said, some clubs' sugar daddies may well not be so willing to dig as deep into their pockets as previously.

Also need to consider the very real possibility of a second wave of Covid this winter which would presumably shut down the league again.

I would presume that all clubs are getting creative with player contracts, perhaps connecting pay to attendances and clauses covering any possible shutdown.

Going to be an interesting one but you'd be brave for placing any bets on outcomes at this stage. Gagging for it to get going though, assuming I'll get in to the ground.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Jul 29, 2020)

Think while may start slowly not unrealistic to think will increase to around 1,000 before Christmas (but pending obviously risk assessment and any potential spike ) (your bubble and 1m)

so basically season ticket holders plus a few hundred
but will still be many more than others in our League 

DHFCTV becomes important in keeping the link - if only we could do the odd live game ? ( I know probably impossible - but can dream)

Opportunity to develop support for the Women's team -


----------



## baleboy_93 (Jul 29, 2020)

PartisanDulwich said:


> Think while may start slowly not unrealistic to think will increase to around 1,000 before Christmas (but pending obviously risk assessment and any potential spike ) (your bubble and 1m)
> 
> so basically season ticket holders plus a few hundred
> but will still be many more than others in our League
> ...


We don’t have the funds available currently but I’d hope we look into it, but will of course have the radio every game as a minimum


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 29, 2020)

TBH, we all know Gavin is going to give most of the players that start the season the boot about four weeks in anyway, so it makes sense to save funds by only paying them a tiny amount. Then when he gets to the revamp maybe bigger crowds are allowed and we can pay the second lot a bit better.


----------



## Roger D (Jul 31, 2020)

Dover anticipate slashing capacity by up to 85% and not permitting away fans when they restart. Both TBC.

www.doverathletic.com/news/ticket-update/


----------



## Al Crane (Jul 31, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Dover anticipate slashing capacity by up to 85% and not permitting away fans when they restart. Both TBC.
> 
> www.doverathletic.com/news/ticket-update/



As a short term strategy it’s understandable, but long term I think the harm done by pricing out younger people for a season could be a serious issue in the years to come given the club has struggled to really attract a significant younger fan base who will be the future adult core support. If the same we’re to happen at Dulwich I don’t think the effect would be as bad.


----------



## Nivag (Jul 31, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> As a short term strategy it’s understandable, but long term I think the harm done by pricing out younger people for a season could be a serious issue in the years to come given the club has struggled to really attract a significant younger fan base who will be the future adult core support. If the same we’re to happen at Dulwich I don’t think the effect would be as bad.


If they don't keep the U11 discount I'd imagine a few parents won't renew their season ticket unless they can afford it. It'll impact a few people's pockets.
Also long-term it might stop the younger generation supporting the club as they get older if they feel they are being priced out of it now.


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## scousedom (Jul 31, 2020)

If there is effectively a ban on away travel (or away getting in which amounts to the same thing), could we schedule home Women’s and Men’s fixtures on alternate Saturdays?


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Jul 31, 2020)

Can we not go on about paying players less, I accept we are in very difficult times and that may be a result (but should be our last resort and never taken lightly) . Nobody should relish cutting players pay at this level - in the case of our mens team - these are mainly young black men and maybe we should actually be valuing their skill and contribution to football and our community

The Truth is the FA should be heavily subsidising non-league football as called for by our Club - enough money to go around

Covid-19 will prove the last straw for a number of non league clubs and life for even our Club is going to be very difficult - but can we actually credit the players who also face many difficult challenges


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## Roger D (Jul 31, 2020)

The government has now stopped the planned trial sports events with limited spectators. Suddenly October looks a bit optimistic sadly.


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## Pink Panther (Jul 31, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The government has now stopped the planned trial sports events with limited spectators. Suddenly October looks a bit optimistic sadly.


Bloody ridiculous. At this rate some of us will be more at risk of heart attack, cancer, dementia or any number of other fatal illnesses before we're able to go about our lives again.


----------



## blueheaven (Jul 31, 2020)

Post deleted!


----------



## DulwichHammer (Aug 2, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> Bloody ridiculous. At this rate some of us will be more at risk of heart attack, cancer, dementia or any number of other fatal illnesses before we're able to go about our lives again.


I am at risk of all of them anyway, even without Covid-19!


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## MrFab_JP (Aug 4, 2020)

Is the bar open?


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## Nivag (Aug 4, 2020)

Dover Players on a free transfer


> National League club could fold after making all players available for free transfer.











						National League club could fold after making all players available for free transfer - Fan Banter
					

Worrying news emerged on Monday, as one National League club could fold after making all of their players available for free transfer. It comes after many reports was published during the coronavirus pandemic, stating that there would be clubs at risk of going under. The club chairman issued a...




					fanbanter.co.uk


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## Nivag (Aug 4, 2020)




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## keith1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Having seen the letter from the FA, the above applies to pre-season friendlies


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## Roger D (Aug 8, 2020)

The Wrexham AGM has been told the league is recommending clubs don't sell season tickets. Their capacity will be reduced by 75%. Fixtures out early next month but season start date may yet shift back.









						Here's what happened as supporters zoomed in for the Wrexham AFC Annual General Meeting
					

WREXHAM AFC held it's Annual General Meeting today via zoom and here are some of the main talking points.




					www.leaderlive.co.uk


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## sleaterkinney (Aug 8, 2020)

Don’t wales have a limit of 30 people per gathering?


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## Roger D (Aug 8, 2020)

Currently yes. Clearly Welsh government rules will trump any league rules. I presume Wrexham are working on the basis it will hopefully ease by restart or they will gain an exemption. 

It'll get interesting if the Welsh government brought back the no travelling more than five miles from home rule. Having a Welsh club in the league is certainly an increased  risk with Covid powers being devolved


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## bkbk (Aug 13, 2020)

Dulwich Hamlet boss Rose left disappointed by lack of decision-making by National League chiefs
					

Gavin Rose has accused National League chiefs of a lack of planning – with Dulwich Hamlet finding it tough to nail down their plans for the 2020-21 season.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk
				






> Gavin Rose has accused National League chiefs of a lack of planning – with Dulwich Hamlet finding it tough to nail down their plans for the 2020-21 season.
> 
> The South London club have not played since the middle of March as the coronavirus pandemic saw the non-league campaign ended.
> 
> ...



Training due to start on Tuesday but has been pushed back a couple of weeks.


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## StephenMac (Aug 13, 2020)

bkbk said:


> Dulwich Hamlet boss Rose left disappointed by lack of decision-making by National League chiefs
> 
> 
> Gavin Rose has accused National League chiefs of a lack of planning – with Dulwich Hamlet finding it tough to nail down their plans for the 2020-21 season.
> ...


Plenty of NLS teams appear to be back at training. Curious.


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## bkbk (Aug 13, 2020)

Maybe they have some players


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## StephenMac (Aug 13, 2020)

bkbk said:


> Maybe they have some players


Could be. Presumably we do have _some_ players but my guess is Gavin doesn't want info being public at the moment. I'm also guessing that there's a shitload of players at our level biding their time for the sort of deals they're used to...and which they won't get. Bit frustrating at the lack of news though.


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## bkbk (Aug 13, 2020)

I think that is probably right and right now I am in favour a more prudent approach. There is even a part of me that thinks working under certain constraints, requiring 'savvier' management, might not lead to relatively lesser performance on the pitch. But I dont know what we are up against versus others.

I certainly don't envy the position of the Management or Directors at the moment.


----------



## pompeydunc (Aug 15, 2020)

DCMS have been a shit show on this. The FA and leagues have submitted plans for handling the season, immediately after they were given the go ahead to do so last month. They have sat on them and just repeated the line about finance from the Premier League being advanced. This doesn't help any club below Step 3, nor does it provide any clarity on how to plan for season whatever level you are. 

COVID is not going away. We know the R rate will fluctuate across different parts of the country. Can't see any reason why they can't put out guidelines that take this into account and get things going.


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## Pink Panther (Aug 15, 2020)

pompeydunc said:


> DCMS have been a shit show on this. The FA and leagues have submitted plans for handling the season, immediately after they were given the go ahead to do so last month. They have sat on them and just repeated the line about finance from the Premier League being advanced. This doesn't help any club below Step 3, nor does it provide any clarity on how to plan for season whatever level you are.
> 
> COVID is not going away. We know the R rate will fluctuate across different parts of the country. Can't see any reason why they can't put out guidelines that take this into account and get things going.


The whole government response is a total shambles.  Look how many other areas covered by DCMS have now opened up.  Today we could have gone to a cinema, bowling alley, ice rink, art gallery, museum, casino, theatre, concert etc., all enclosed spaces, yet we can't sit or stand outside in the open to watch a football or cricket match.

Then there's the fiasco of opening up these daft so called "air bridges" for people to go off on foreign holidays, only to close some of them again.  It's a bit late for that now.  Frankly what's the point?  They should have just stuck with a simple message of "don't go abroad on holiday" in the first place.  No one ever *needed* to go to overseas on holiday any more than I need to go to football or cricket matches.  Yet you can do one, but not the other.


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## Paula_G (Aug 16, 2020)

Well looks like some things are being planned as I see there have been preseason friendlies confirmed by the host clubs at Sutton United (15th September 7pm) and at Wealdstone (19th September 3pm). Obviously behind closed doors as things stand by hopefully the club can work out a way of showing those that allows fans to enjoy the games & also provides important income..


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## Lucy Fur (Aug 16, 2020)

baleboy_93 said:


> We don’t have the funds available currently but I’d hope we look into it, but will of course have the radio every game as a minimum


Just a thought, could you charge people to view, I seem to remember the comedy club did this. Either way, thanks for all your great work.


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## Paula_G (Aug 16, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Just a thought, could you charge people to view, I seem to remember the comedy club did this. Either way, thanks for all your great work.



Sponsorship deal with local brewers perhaps with them doing special Dulwich Hamlet “drink at home” beer packs for armchair viewers? Socially distanced big screen viewing on the AstroTurf? Apparently drive-ins are very big with the “young hip crowd” these days?


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## Lucy Fur (Aug 16, 2020)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Sponsorship deal with local brewers perhaps with them doing special Dulwich Hamlet “drink at home” beer packs for armchair viewers? Socially distanced big screen viewing on the AstroTurf? Apparently drive-ins are very big with the “young hip crowd” these days?


Why not, crowds are going to be severely restricted for the foreseeable future, there's no sugar daddy / mummy on the horizon, the FA live up to their acronym in their use so time to get a bit inventive


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## Pink Panther (Aug 16, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Just a thought, could you charge people to view, I seem to remember the comedy club did this. Either way, thanks for all your great work.


It looks like Wealdstone are already planning to do this, so presumably no real point in our own team doing the same thing unless it's likely to make a profit:









						Eight Pre-Season fixtures confirmed
					

We are delighted to confirm eight fixtures in our pre-season schedule ahead of the 2020/21 National League season. The action starts at Bedford Town on Saturday 22nd August before hosting two Football League clubs in successive home games. Championship survivors Luton Town visit The Vale on...




					www.wealdstone-fc.com


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## baleboy_93 (Aug 16, 2020)

I’d be up for it if the resources were there to do it and fans would get on board, having been at Football Exclusives when we used to do the pay-for-highlights scheme I’m always a bit reluctant to charge fans, but will certainly discuss with Jam and the powers that be what they reckon!


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## AveryDave (Aug 16, 2020)

Feels like you’ve got to be a detective to work out what’s going on with the men’s team at the moment. Opponents announcing our pre-season schedule, players announcing they’re leaving and the occasional interview with the SLP to express frustration with the current situation but not a lot else.


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## Paula_G (Aug 16, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> They should have just stuck with a simple message of "don't go abroad on holiday" in the first place. No one ever *needed* to go to overseas on holiday any more than I need to go to football or cricket matches.



Probably would have done but given that the arrival of the “air bridges” coincided with the Parliamentary recess... 🤔


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## Pink Panther (Aug 18, 2020)

Good to see our old friend Tracey Crouch at the forefront of attempts to get things moving with the government:


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## Cat Daisy (Aug 18, 2020)

Are we supposed to have done some sort of Covid19 risk assessment yet? Step 3 clubs were required to complete by 15th and I have seen at least one very well documented one that has been made public.


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## Roger D (Aug 18, 2020)

I believe it was due in with the authorities by that date. Not aware of any mandate to release it publicly yet. I did hear a whisper it was being worked on internally so I don't think silence is the sign of any problem. 

There would be a argument to release it a few days before the first home match so its at the forefront of attendees minds and not something they read weeks ago and have largely forgotten. 

Given the pinch points that exist in the ground it would have been a challenging piece of work, many thanks to whoever undertook it.


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## Pink Panther (Aug 18, 2020)

Roger D said:


> I believe it was due in with the authorities by that date. Not aware of any mandate to release it publicly yet. I did hear a whisper it was being worked on internally so I don't think silence is the sign of any problem.
> 
> There would be a argument to release it a few days before the first home match so its at the forefront of attendees minds and not something they read weeks ago and have largely forgotten.
> 
> Given the pinch points that exist in the ground it would have been a challenging piece of work, many thanks to whoever undertook it.


The main pinch points are in front of the main stand and in the south west corner.  I would have thought the best solution is to direct people to only move in one direction (either clockwise or anticlockwise) around the ground.  Many grounds will have the same issue.

I'm not sure making our own assessment public will serve any useful purpose, as any directive from above is likely to supersede some of it.


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## Roger D (Aug 18, 2020)

I could be wrong but I believe it's an FA requirement that the document is published prior to the ground opening to spectators.


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## Roger D (Aug 18, 2020)

Tier three and below are now allowed to let in fans, subject to various hoops, if anyone fancies a trip to Peckham Town, Fisher etc.









						Clubs below sixth tier can admit fans
					

Fans will be allowed to attend football in the seventh tier and below, after updated guidance from the government.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Pink Panther (Aug 18, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Tier three and below are now allowed to let in fans, subject to various hoops, if anyone fancies a trip to Peckham Town, Fisher etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good. If the Hamlet play away to any club at that level I'll be desperate to go after so long without any live sports action. Any early round FA Cup ties would be a nice bonus.


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## editor (Aug 18, 2020)

And from the BBC



> Fans will be allowed to attend football in the seventh tier and below, after the government updated its guidance on recreational team sport events.
> 
> Clubs in the leagues below National League North and South will be able to open their gates to spectators for the first time since the coronavirus pandemic began.
> 
> ...











						Clubs below sixth tier can admit fans
					

Fans will be allowed to attend football in the seventh tier and below, after updated guidance from the government.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Roger D (Aug 19, 2020)

FA statement on the return of fans at level 3 and below due today. Hopefully we'll get more clarity on capacities betc then.

It seems the government has signed it off but not, yet, the FA. Which may cause issues for the teams who admitted fans to friendlies last night ....


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## Pink Panther (Aug 19, 2020)

All being well this will be extended to our level in time for the league and cup fixtures, in which case we'll hopefully be allowed 30% of normal capacity:









						Updated guidelines for return of spectators in steps three to six of National League System and tiers three to four of Women's Football Pyramid
					

Two-stage process to be implemented from 22 August




					www.thefa.com


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## mx wcfc (Aug 19, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> All being well this will be extended to our level in time for the league and cup fixtures, in which case we'll hopefully be allowed 30% of normal capacity:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it 30% of the minimum ground grading capacity for Step 2 though?  Would that work against you?  (perhaps the rule will change).


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## Roger D (Aug 19, 2020)

It is currently linked to the steps minimum capacity at the steps below Hamlet. From memory Step 2 minimum capacity is 3000. The Hamlet's capacity is something like 3350.

I suspect there will be greater scrutiny at our level, and above, and that figures will be calculated for each stadium rather than an across the board %.

We shall see.


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## Pink Panther (Aug 19, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> Isn't it 30% of the minimum ground grading capacity for Step 2 though?  Would that work against you?  (perhaps the rule will change).


It would be 900-1,000 depending on whether they use the figure of 3,000 or each club's specific capacity. 

Either way we're likely to be hit harder than anyone else in the division. It feels very unfair that any club with smaller than average crowds and a sugar daddy can gain a big advantage over others.


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## TonyWalt (Aug 19, 2020)

Good to hear some clarification on arrangements. Maybe we will find out about ticketing and Season tickets soon now.


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## PartisanDulwich (Aug 25, 2020)

Still seeing reference to 1,000 ( which will leave many disappointed) - but know our club will play this super safe all around (and rightly so)
This would no doubt include masks compulsory and hand sanitiser before going in

Controversially, singing may be out as Choirs have been a proven form of transmission  


Singing, particularly in large groups for a prolonged duration, are viewed as 'more risky practice', a new paper by Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) has found. Evidence suggests that singing can produce more aerosols, or droplet nuclei, than normal talking or breathing. These are either inhaled directly or transferred by the hands from surfaces where they have been deposited. The new document says that the smaller the particle, the further it can advance into the respiratory tract.

The authors said: 'There exists some evidence to suggest that singing can produce more aerosols than normal talking or breathing; it may be more akin to a cough.'Singing for any appreciable amount of time therefore may present a risk for the creation of infectious aerosols and allow for infection transmission.'

But singing outside with social distancing would be considered safer - but sure advice will be forthcoming


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## Nivag (Aug 25, 2020)

Maybe when can use the PA system to replicate the rabble singing like they do on the telly. Jamal should be able to lift the sound off a old DHFC TV video..


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## Cyclodunc (Aug 25, 2020)

erect a load of dangling keys like wind chimes.


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## Cyclodunc (Aug 25, 2020)

Should really intimidate any visiting goalkeeper


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## AveryDave (Aug 29, 2020)

Looks like we’re playing at VCD Athletic on Tuesday.


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## TonyWalt (Aug 29, 2020)

...and they are talking about tickets!.
 I was presuming any preseason games would be behind closed doors. I wonder if they will be allowing any away fans?


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## Stuart Fordyce (Aug 29, 2020)

Hamlet saying they are selling tickets on behalf of VCD. Anyone been down there to know if you could watch the match in a socially distanced manner there?


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## TonyWalt (Aug 29, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> Hamlet saying they are selling tickets on behalf of VCD. Anyone been down there to know if you could watch the match in a socially distanced manner there?



From what I remember, there is plenty of space around the pitch. A couple of small covered stands on one side. A path around the rest of the pitch with plenty of grass behind that.


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## Cat Daisy (Aug 29, 2020)

TonyWalt said:


> From what I remember, there is plenty of space around the pitch. A couple of small covered stands on one side. A path around the rest of the pitch with plenty of grass behind that.


And a long sloping walk down from the turnstiles & tea bar to the pitch level. Agree it feels quite a roomy ground.


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## Stuart Fordyce (Aug 30, 2020)

Bought a ticket. It's only a fiver after all!


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## baleboy_93 (Aug 30, 2020)

If anyone can’t go we will be doing a live radio comms and highlights, as we hopefully will be for the remainder of preseason. Weren’t able to do so yesterday due to strict numbers allowed in at Spurs training ground.


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## Roger D (Sep 9, 2020)

Potential changes to the planned re-admission of spectators confirmed. 









						Fan attendance to be reviewed - PM
					

Plans for spectators to attend sporting events in England from 1 October will be reviewed, Prime Minister Boris Johnson confirms.




					www.bbc.com


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## PartisanDulwich (Sep 9, 2020)

baleboy_93 said:


> If anyone can’t go we will be doing a live radio comms and highlights, as we hopefully will be for the remainder of preseason. Weren’t able to do so yesterday due to strict numbers allowed in at Spurs training ground.



really really grateful to Tom and Jamal


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## Roger D (Sep 10, 2020)

Here's the government statement re the review of re-admitting crowds. Doesn't say much TBH. The number of pilot events has been reduced, and the maximum crowd at any one event has been reduced to 1,000.









						Sport pilots to be reduced in capacity to 1,000 people socially distanced
					

The government is to reduce the number of people that can attend sporting events to pilot the safe return of spectators to 1,000 in light of the increase in the number of positive coronavirus cases.




					www.gov.uk


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## Moroccan Sunset (Sep 13, 2020)

scousedom said:


> If there is effectively a ban on away travel (or away getting in which amounts to the same thing), could we schedule home Women’s and Men’s fixtures on alternate Saturdays?



Think this is a cracking idea. I'd imagine Saturday afternoon attendances would bring better crowds as well. Would be a good way to support the club if, as away fans, we're not allowed to attend away games.  Surely worth doing until grounds are opened up to larger grounds?


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## Roger D (Sep 15, 2020)

The National League has written to the government asking for permission to restart the first weekend in October with gates capped at 1,000 for the first month at least.


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## scousedom (Sep 15, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The National League has written to the government asking for permission to restart the first weekend in October with gates capped at 1,000 for the first month at least.


The National League has written to the government to display its lack of awareness of the direction of travel.


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## Roger D (Sep 19, 2020)

Worth noting the government instructions for much of the North West, effective as of Tuesday, apparently includes "advice" that people should not attend sports events as a spectator. 

Not looking good for the request to restart with 1k fans


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## Roger D (Sep 22, 2020)

The BBC are reporting the National League won't restart on 3/10 if, as expected, the government push back the date for fans to be allowed back into stadiums at Elite level from 1/10.

The club's/league pushing for Tier Two to be classified as Elite, to permit the play offs, seems to be backfiring badly.


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## Al Crane (Sep 22, 2020)

I hope player contracts don’t start until the league starts otherwise a lot of clubs will be screwed.


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## Roger D (Sep 22, 2020)

And Michael Gove has now confirmed the return of fans is "paused".


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## Stuart Fordyce (Sep 22, 2020)

I haven't seen us win a match since the 5-3 win over Chelmsford in February. Looks like that run is going to continue for a while!


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## StephenMac (Sep 22, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> I hope player contracts don’t start until the league starts otherwise a lot of clubs will be screwed.


It's a good question. Presumably there might be a flight of step 2 players to step 3 in some scenarios. What a business.


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## Al Crane (Sep 22, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> It's a good question. Presumably there might be a flight of step 2 players to step 3 in some scenarios. What a business.



Complete mess.

Just read an article from the Dover manager who said:  ...[Dover] have inserted clauses in contracts this year that mean they won't pay players unless fans are watching them play..."there's players that have signed contracts but we've put in there that if the pandemic continues and football doesn't start then they are not going to get paid - other clubs have done the same too." 

Sounds like some clubs at least have covered themselves.


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## bkbk (Sep 22, 2020)

In an interview with Southwark News Gav said our players will be paid from the day the season starts:

“Contracts would start when the season starts, because no one’s sure what’s going to happen with the pandemic and if there’s going to be a second wave. Obviously we don’t want that, but we have to go into this with our eyes open. So most clubs are probably covering themselves by only starting contracts when the season starts. "









						Ex-Southend midfielder and former Millwall defender sign - Dulwich Hamlet boss discusses rebuilding work - Southwark News
					

Players' contracts will start from the first day of the 2020-21 season




					www.southwarknews.co.uk


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## StephenMac (Sep 22, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> Complete mess.
> 
> Just read an article from the Dover manager who said:  ...[Dover] have inserted clauses in contracts this year that mean they won't pay players unless fans are watching them play..."there's players that have signed contracts but we've put in there that if the pandemic continues and football doesn't start then they are not going to get paid - other clubs have done the same too."
> 
> Sounds like some clubs at least have covered themselves.


Hopefully that will be the case for most, if not all, National League clubs. In that scenario I can imagine players wanting to drop levels to get some income and play some football. I'm guessing that most step 3 players are non-contract so it could be carnage.

Full of sympathy for Ben, Tom and anyone else trying to figure a way forward.


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## bkbk (Sep 22, 2020)

Oh just spotted an article with the SLP with Ben Clasper on this topic:



> Dulwich Hamlet chairman Ben Clasper has expressed his frustration at the National League’s inaction – and reckons it was always clear the campaign would not start with supporters.
> 
> Cabinet minister Michael Gove confirmed on Tuesday morning that plans for fans to return to watch live sport from October 1 will not go ahead due to an increased in Covid-19 cases.
> 
> ...












						Exclusive: Dulwich Hamlet chairman: National League should have acted – we told them no fans would be allowed
					

Dulwich Hamlet chairman Ben Clasper has expressed his frustration at the National League’s inaction – and reckons it was always clear the campaign would not start with supporters. Cabinet min…




					londonnewsonline.co.uk


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## StephenMac (Sep 22, 2020)

bkbk said:


> In an interview with Southwark News Gav said our players will be paid from the day the season starts:
> 
> “Contracts would start when the season starts, because no one’s sure what’s going to happen with the pandemic and if there’s going to be a second wave. Obviously we don’t want that, but we have to go into this with our eyes open. So most clubs are probably covering themselves by only starting contracts when the season starts. "
> 
> ...


And then what happens if we get an away draw against lower league opposition in the Cup on the 3rd? Season will have started. Oh lord, a tricky mess.


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## liamdhfc (Sep 22, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> And then what happens if we get an away draw against lower league opposition in the Cup on the 3rd? Season will have started. Oh lord, a tricky mess.



I believe that these scenarios are covered and the risks have been mitigated.


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## pinknblue (Sep 22, 2020)

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this season should not be started, certainly at National League level. I think things will only get worse during the winter months and they'll be some clubs going bust mid-season and others not able to play for weeks on end because of positive Covid tests. Just too many potential problems for me. Hibernation this season and long-term survival look increasingly attractive.


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## StephenMac (Sep 22, 2020)

liamdhfc said:


> I believe that these scenarios are covered and the risks have been mitigated.


I'm sure. I'm not arrogant enough to think that something that popped into my head wouldn't have been considered by people who actually know what they're doing.


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## liamdhfc (Sep 22, 2020)

I think it's quite a recent thing at Dulwich. Until recently I've always worked from the position that nobody thought of it and whatever the club did was probably dodgy. Thankfully that has all changed.


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## TonyWalt (Sep 22, 2020)

pinknblue said:


> I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this season should not be started, certainly at National League level. I think things will only get worse during the winter months and they'll be some clubs going bust mid-season and others not able to play for weeks on end because of positive Covid tests. Just too many potential problems for me. Hibernation this season and long-term survival look increasingly attractive.


So sad at the news today that fans won’t be allowed to attend football and with no provisional date given for even re considering the decision, I think you’re probably right, hibernation might be the only option. Gutted


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## pinknblue (Sep 23, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/54246745


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## blueheaven (Sep 23, 2020)

pinknblue said:


> I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this season should not be started, certainly at National League level. I think things will only get worse during the winter months and they'll be some clubs going bust mid-season and others not able to play for weeks on end because of positive Covid tests. Just too many potential problems for me. Hibernation this season and long-term survival look increasingly attractive.



I agree. I was actually quite surprised at how early some of the other clubs at our level started signing players and selling season tickets, given the levels of uncertainty.

I might be way off here but is it not the case that even if the season was to start in early October as planned, DHFC would still be buggered because of the limit on crowds? I just wonder if hibernating the season for the year would be a better scenario than attempting to stage matches, run the club and pay players on very limited income?

If it hadn't been for this week's events and the season was able to start with fans in attendance as planned, what would have been Champion Hill's maximum capacity?


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## Roger D (Sep 23, 2020)

We don't know, the permitted crowds at Elite Level had not been announced. I heard from people at a couple of other clubs it was to be calculated per ground not as a flat %. Given some obvious pinch points I suspect the current ground wouldn't have fared too well in the assessment.

Aldershot, who have much more room in the ground, had stated they anticipated being able to permit 2k once fans were admitted. They also have a few issues, toilets etc 

If the season does start in front of fans (looking very unlikely now) I doubt you'll be allowed to hibernate without relegation. (It's a bit different for teams outside England, due to the potential for devolved government rules hitting them.) 

To be clear, if sitting out the season and being relegated was the only way to save the club, I'd support it. I just don't think sitting the season out is an easy answer.

It's worth noting the official advice in Merseyside etc is that people now should not attend sport as a spectator. That has the potential to cause a world of pain for tier three and below in the impacted parts of England.


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## Ronco (Sep 23, 2020)

What is the situation regarding the season tickets already sold? I'm happy to give the money as a donation even if we have no season but not sure everyone would agree.


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## Roger D (Sep 23, 2020)

The league meet to discuss the way forward tomorrow.  A suspension of the season's start seems to be expected 

Until that happens I don't suppose the club are in a position to decide to be honest.


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## pinknblue (Sep 23, 2020)

Roger D said:


> We don't know, the permitted crowds at Elite Level had not been announced. I heard from people at a couple of other clubs it was to be calculated per ground not as a flat %. Given some obvious pinch points I suspect the current ground wouldn't have fared too well in the assessment.
> 
> Aldershot, who have much more room in the ground, had stated they anticipated being able to permit 2k once fans were admitted. They also have a few issues, toilets etc
> 
> ...



Yes, Roger, there are no easy answers on this situation. I wasn't suggesting that we hibernate if we're able to play with reasonable crowds: only if, as looks likely, no crowds will be allowed until at least March. If that is the case, I think the most reasonable thing the National League can do is to scratch the whole season for all clubs. This would take the decision out of the hands of the clubs and ensure there's no punishment for anyone. Alternatively, in the unlikely case that things improve by January, maybe a reduced league could be played either splitting the teams from each division into two groups and playing home and away or just playing each team in the whole division once.


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## Roger D (Sep 24, 2020)

Dan Roan BBC is reporting he believes the season will start behind closed doors on October 3rd. A statement is due shortly

If true, either they know some money is coming fron the government or the weighted voting system has led to a whole world of pain for many clubs in the North and South divisions


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## StephenMac (Sep 24, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Dan Roan BBC is reporting he believes the season will start behind closed doors on October 3rd. A statement is due shortly
> 
> If true, either they know some money is coming fron the government or the weighted voting system has led to a whole world of pain for many clubs in the North and South divisions


The latter would be appalling. Guess we'll find out soon.


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## Roger D (Sep 24, 2020)

It looks like no go until they source funding but this statement is a shocker.

Edited to say some sources say this means the season is starting irrespective. Others that it starts if they get the money. The statement doesn't really cover that point off bizarrely.









						Update on Commencement of 2020/21 Season - The Vanarama National League
					

Following a meeting of its Board of Directors this afternoon, the following update is issued on behalf of The National League:




					www.thenationalleague.org.uk


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## Roger D (Sep 24, 2020)

And here's a government minister suggesting Elite sport may not be very far up their priority list. Looks like they may have to ask the Premier League for funding 









						Elite sport must 'support itself'
					

Elite sport will be expected to "look at ways in which it can support itself" through financial difficulties, the UK sports minister says.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Sep 25, 2020)

Always felt if anyone could do Covid secure and football it could be Dulwich Hamlet
as we have fans who would follow the rules to the letter, stewards/officials who would enforce correctly, fairly and a Club leadership that would ensure correct protocols were followed to the letter - Whether social distancing, mask wearing, hand sanitiser, temperature checks and maybe advice to fans who were clinically more at risk

The problem now is apart from the serious financial situation of going a head with no or limited fans, looks like London is heading for it's own lock down


----------



## Roger D (Sep 26, 2020)

Ollie Bayliss has tweeted that the league has confirmed they will start next week behind closed doors if the government confirm a bailout before then. The plan seems to be a monthly subsidy based on lost gate receipts.

Not great for anyone who takes a lot of money via the bar during the week etc and any other facilities that are currently not pulling in the usual levels of income


----------



## Cyclodunc (Sep 26, 2020)

PartisanDulwich said:


> Always felt if anyone could do Covid secure and football it could be Dulwich Hamlet
> as we have fans who would follow the rules to the letter



bit optimistic


----------



## bkbk (Sep 30, 2020)

What does this actually mean in reality, starting the season and triggering loads of contract liabilities? You'd think it's a good news message but is it actually? I really have no clue any more.


----------



## Roger D (Sep 30, 2020)

The BBC are suggesting the member club's will be given a sum each month to cover lost net gate receipts only and that the total lump sum for the league is expected to be in the ballpark of two to three million pounds a month.

I would suggest that, if true, will leave a shortfall at many clubs.


----------



## StephenMac (Sep 30, 2020)

bkbk said:


> What does this actually mean in reality, starting the season and triggering loads of contract liabilities? You'd think it's a good news message but is it actually? I really have no clue any more.



I'm assuming, or completely guessing, that it will stop clubs pulling out to avoid contracts kicking in. If it's guaranteed and of a decent level of funding for as long as doors are closed then it should keep clubs afloat. Whether a season behind closed doors is of any use to anyone is another matter.


----------



## StephenMac (Sep 30, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The BBC are suggesting the member club's will be given a sum each month to cover lost net gate receipts only and that the total lump sum for the league is expected to be in the ballpark of two to three million pounds a month.
> 
> I would suggest that, if true, will leave a shortfall at many clubs.


I think it will too. But then the argument could be made that clubs will have been contingency planning during the summer for reduced capacities and so might be OK if the funding at least tallies with those plans. I'd have pretty limited sympathy for any club that has been planning for business as usual.

A season behind closed doors is still ridiculous though.


----------



## scousedom (Sep 30, 2020)

Worth considering perhaps that a season behind closed doors is ridiculous for fans, but may not be so for players. I bet they would much rather play and maintain/further their careers.


----------



## pettyboy (Sep 30, 2020)

Hard to get scouted when there's no one there to watch you


----------



## scousedom (Sep 30, 2020)

pettyboy said:


> Hard to get scouted when there's no one there to watch you


They’ll all be watching DHFCTV though.


----------



## StephenMac (Sep 30, 2020)

scousedom said:


> Worth considering perhaps that a season behind closed doors is ridiculous for fans, but may not be so for players. I bet they would much rather play and maintain/further their careers.


I'm sure they would but then you get down to the fundamental question of what do football clubs exist for. I wouldn't see furthering players' careers as being at the top of the list of answers.

That probably sounds a bit callous but I don't see it as the biggest issue.


----------



## pettyboy (Sep 30, 2020)

scousedom said:


> They’ll all be watching DHFCTV though.



No doubt they will. But rightly or wrongly, scouting has always been about the 'feel' of a player. Watching them live and in the flesh. This really comes through in Michael Calvin's book on football scouts 'The Nowhere Men'.


----------



## pettyboy (Sep 30, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> I'm sure they would but then you get down to the fundamental question of what do football clubs exist for. I wouldn't see furthering players' careers as being at the top of the list of answers.
> 
> That probably sounds a bit callous but I don't see it as the biggest issue.



Also 100% agree with this. We're the exception at our level of being a club that has furthered players' careers. But first and foremost, I believe local clubs should be civic institutions, not centres of excellence (obviously they can end up being both).


----------



## scousedom (Sep 30, 2020)

pettyboy said:


> Also 100% agree with this. We're the exception at our level of being a club that has furthered players' careers. But first and foremost, I believe local clubs should be civic institutions, not centres of excellence (obviously they can end up being both).


Okay but if for exceptional reasons they can’t temporarily be one of those things (or they can’t to the same extent) it doesn’t mean they should stop being the other albeit secondary one. 

Look I don’t want to get into a pointless online argument, all I was trying to do was say as much as this is annoying for us it’s probably beneficial, physically mentally and financially, for a group of people for whom we have respect and affection. So if you want to cheer yourself up with that thought, then you can. If not, fine by me too.


----------



## pettyboy (Sep 30, 2020)

ScouseDomVose


----------



## Paula_G (Sep 30, 2020)

pettyboy said:


> Hard to get scouted when there's no one there to watch you


Checking the Premier League admission rules a while back which presumably would be the same across all “elite” football there was a provision for admitting scouts...


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 1, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> I'm sure they would but then you get down to the fundamental question of what do football clubs exist for. I wouldn't see furthering players' careers as being at the top of the list of answers.
> 
> That probably sounds a bit callous but I don't see it as the biggest issue.


It's barking mad.  Elite non-league football will basically become a nationalised industry funded by the government.  Surely the whole point of professional football is that people pay to watch it, but we can't.


----------



## pinknblue (Oct 1, 2020)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Checking the Premier League admission rules a while back which presumably would be the same across all “elite” football there was a provision for admitting scouts...



Surely that must be sexist? Equal opportunities dictate you should also admit girl guides!


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Oct 4, 2020)

Are there any plans to stream Tuesday's match?


----------



## Paula_G (Oct 4, 2020)

Moroccan Sunset said:


> Are there any plans to stream Tuesday's match?


Curious one here but the Google Calendar date is now showing the home game with Concord as postponed... Is there something I’ve missed as nothing on either clubs’ Twitter feed. Just wondering if this is a slip up by the authors in relation to the following week’s FA Cup tie?


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 4, 2020)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Curious one here but the Google Calendar date is now showing the home game with Concord as postponed... Is there something I’ve missed as nothing on either clubs’ Twitter feed. Just wondering if this is a slip up by the authors in relation to the following week’s FA Cup tie?


I was told by a club official before yesterday's match that it's *off*, so I'm sure that's correct, but it doesn't yet seem to have been officially announced.  We could have insisted that Concord play twice in 48 hours but are hopeful it might get delayed until spectators can attend.  (I assume the normal rule about postponed games having to be played within 42 days of the original date will be relaxed for this reason.)


----------



## AveryDave (Oct 4, 2020)

Are we due any new kits for this season?

Sorry to ask that here, didn’t seem to warrant it’s own thread, this one seemed like the best fit. No puns intended, obviously.


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 4, 2020)

AveryDave said:


> Are we due any new kits for this season?
> 
> Sorry to ask that here, didn’t seem to warrant it’s own thread, this one seemed like the best fit. No puns intended, obviously.


The kit we wore yesterday is this season's second kit. (Basically last season's third kit with minor alterations to sponsor logos and navy numbers instead of the rather silly pink on white of last season.)

I'm told there will be no all pink kit this time.

I believe the kits are due to be officially released this week. The home one sounds fairly similar to the promotion season kit of three years ago, mostly navy with pink sleeves.


----------



## AveryDave (Oct 9, 2020)

Interesting comment from Chester’s joint manager - after the reassurance given by the National League to get teams to start the season, apparently there’s been radio silence ever since.


----------



## Roger D (Oct 19, 2020)

Looks like the season is basically shot in terms of attending matches. The RFL have reported the government has advised them to work on the basis that spectators wont be back until April at the earliest.

Not exactly a shock but that's the first time I've seen that date cited.









						RFL Update | Championship & League 1 in 2021
					





					www.rugby-league.com


----------



## Roger D (Oct 21, 2020)

Ollie Bayliss is reporting 5 Conference North/South clubs will receive central funding of £36k a month. The rest receive £30k a month.

So much for replacing lost gate income etc. as the disparity in gate levels far exceeds that financial gap.

Edited to say the top tier clubs get a minimum of £84k per month.


----------



## StephenMac (Oct 21, 2020)

Unsurprisingly they've absolutely bollocksed it up. Look out for Concord buying a club yacht.


----------



## bkbk (Oct 21, 2020)

I can probably guess but any idea of how that compares to expectations?


----------



## Al Crane (Oct 21, 2020)

bkbk said:


> I can probably guess but any idea of how that compares to expectations?




Mindboogling?
F**ked?
Expected?


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 21, 2020)

It's barely more than a one size fits all approach and we're going to be the biggest losers. We'll have lost more matchday revenue than anyone else. Yet those with a sugar daddy, whether it's a Dorking pushing for yet another promotion or those with a lower profile benefactor putting in just enough each year to sustain an artificially high level, will be able to spend more than us.









						National League confirms funding split
					

The National League is to distribute the £10m support package based on attendances, meaning seven ex-EFL clubs receive a larger sum.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Al Crane (Oct 21, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> It's barely more than a one size fits all approach and we're going to be the biggest losers. We'll have lost more matchday revenue than anyone else. Yet those with a sugar daddy, whether it's a Dorking pushing for yet another promotion or those with a lower profile benefactor putting in just enough each year to sustain an artificially high level, will be able to spend more than us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really poor way for the BBC to report it, making it sound like the National League are favouring ex-league clubs whereas the real story is that whatever messed up way they have calculated the payments means that clubs like us are going to suffer for having a sustainable business model. I saw that Oliver Ash of Maidstone is considering taking action with other clubs to quash the decision and get funding redistributed appropriately (calcs by pompeydunc).


----------



## pompeydunc (Oct 21, 2020)

Absolutely livid by this.  It's the kind of thing that will only get passing interest, as the headlines appear like their is some kind of fair distribution, but it's far from that.  They have made the very lightest nod towards being based on attendance.  This may actually help a legal argument mind.

Notts County are set to be the biggest losers, assuming they have put together a squad based on an average attendance of 5000.  However, I expect given their size, then they _might_ be able to absorb some of this in the longer term accounts.  In reality, then I think this will impact us the hardest, as being most reliant on the gate, and less able to cope with financial shocks.

Legal action seems to be the only way to resolve this, but I am not clear on what basis this would be done.  I have no idea whether the National League Articles would require a vote on this type of issue, of if its delegated to management.  The majority of clubs actually are set to benefit by the model, so not sure a vote would even go our way.

Shambles.


----------



## pinknblue (Oct 21, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> Unsurprisingly they've absolutely bollocksed it up. Look out for Concord buying a club yacht.



...or maybe a concord?


----------



## pinknblue (Oct 21, 2020)

I suspect that however the money is split, some clubs will be unhappy. Perhaps they could have distributed the cash to clubs in proportion to gates, but that neither takes account of the price of entrance nor the amount that's being paid to players which is probably generally higher in the National League. My major gripe with the distribution is that nearly 61% of the money has gone to the NL clubs and only 39% to the remaining two-thirds (NLS/NLN) of clubs. That sounds very wrong to me. I'd have thought a 50/25/25 split would have been fairer. It definitely doesn't feel right that sone clubs (Boreham Wood, Wealdstone) are going to make huge profits from the distribution while others, including ourselves, are going to suffer badly.


----------



## Paula_G (Oct 21, 2020)

Some might see a distribution based solely on declared attendance figures as somewhat akin to the Premier League’s Big 5/6/7/8 (whatever it is these days 🤷‍♀️) claiming entitlement to the bulk of football’s income but what is really needed here is some sort of Duckworth Lewis system that takes a whole variety of factors into account. After all how much of the big NLS clubs attendances like Dulwich Hamlet or Maidstone United can be accounted for in season ticket sales or in discounted & free tickets which other clubs do not offer. If clubs divulged actual gate receipts then a fairer picture might be gained. Do we know what sponsorship & advertising might have been lost due to the season not starting. Ground lettings have been lost which may or may not have been recompensed via government hand outs, similarly use of facilities for outside events, weddings, parties, bar mitzvahs etc. Factor in these along with players, management and other staff wages & expenses and a more accurate picture might be achieved.


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 21, 2020)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> If clubs divulged actual gate receipts then a fairer picture might be gained.


I'd been under the impression that this was how it was going to be calculated.  It would also have the advantage that any club illegally underdeclaring its income/expenditure for tax dodging purposes would lose out.

During the three month period covered by the subsidy clubs can expect to play seven home league matches.  For the smaller clubs 30k is probably more than they would take over seven home games, yet our £36k probably equates to roughly two matchdays' gate receipts.


----------



## Paula_G (Oct 21, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> For the smaller clubs 30k is probably more than they would take over seven home games, yet our £36k probably equates to roughly two matchdays' gate receipts.


Based on personal experience of running the turnstiles the average per supporter at Champion Hill is less than (almost certainly) every other club in the National League thanks to the range of discounted & free admission, along with a large season ticket holder base. That said it’s not so much as to totally knock out the disparity.


----------



## Paula_G (Oct 21, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> It would also have the advantage that any club illegally underdeclaring its income/expenditure for tax dodging purposes would lose out.


When I mentioned “divulged” I meant publicly rather than to the officers of the National League so that those basing their position solely on the physical numbers of attendees rather than the financial losses of supporter-less match days which go beyond the money handed over at the turnstiles..


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 22, 2020)

A frank appraisal of the funding decision from one of Maidstone's owners. It sounds like some of the smaller National Division clubs have an undue level of influence on the National League Board:









						Directors' Blog: Stones co-owner hits out at misuse of grant
					

By club co-owner Terry Casey  The distribution of the £10million grant from the National Lottery to the Vanarama National League has left me utterly confused and bitterly disappointed.  Maidstone United Football Club have many things to be proud of: one being the way that we run the business in




					www.maidstoneunited.co.uk


----------



## Roger D (Oct 23, 2020)

The distribution method used by the league has been raised in Parliament by a Tory MP representing a York constituency.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Oct 23, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> A frank appraisal of the funding decision from one of Maidstone's owners. It sounds like some of the smaller National Division clubs have an undue level of influence on the National League Board:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's no surprise but still terrible to read.


----------



## Al Crane (Oct 23, 2020)

Dover's chairman has come out strongly against Maidstone's allegations that National League Board members have looked after their own clubs. Mid-morning on BBC Radio Kent - 22/10/2020 - BBC Sounds A few minutes on the subject from around 3h 46 in.

"The allocation amounts were not decided by the National League board members associated with clubs, because we would have been conflicted". Okay, but even if the NL Board didn't work out the allocations, they did then vote on the proposals which was the point at which they could have decided that the allocations were not fair and not in the best interests of all their member clubs.

Apparently the DCMS and FA worked out the allocations > DCMS is headed up by Secretary of State, Oliver Dowden > who is also the MP for Hertsmere > Boreham Wood FC fall within this constituency > Boreham Wood have done very well out of this...


----------



## pettyboy (Oct 23, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> Dover's chairman has come out strongly against Maidstone's allegations that National League Board members have looked after their own clubs. Mid-morning on BBC Radio Kent - 22/10/2020 - BBC Sounds A few minutes on the subject from around 3h 46 in.
> 
> "The allocation amounts were not decided by the National League board members associated with clubs, because we would have been conflicted". Okay, but even if the NL Board didn't work out the allocations, they did then vote on the proposals which was the point at which they could have decided that the allocations were not fair and not in the best interests of all their member clubs.
> 
> Apparently the DCMS worked out the allocations > DCMS is headed up by Secretary of State, Oliver Dowden > who is also the MP for Hertsmere > Boreham Wood FC fall within this constituency > Boreham Wood have done very well out of this...


----------



## StephenMac (Oct 23, 2020)

pettyboy said:


> View attachment 235482


Not remotely dodgy.


----------



## pompeydunc (Oct 23, 2020)

pettyboy said:


> View attachment 235482


----------



## Cat Daisy (Oct 23, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> Not remotely dodgy.


Wasn't their owner the Brexit chap. Maybe returning the favour.


----------



## Pink Panther (Oct 23, 2020)

Cat Daisy said:


> Wasn't their owner the Brexit chap. Maybe returning the favour.


Yes, he used the club Twitter account to promote pro-Brexit/Tory stuff a while back. I think it was during the General Election last December.


----------



## Roger D (Oct 24, 2020)

bkbk said:


> I can probably guess but any idea of how that compares to expectations?




Ben Clasper is quoted in The Athletic today as saying he estimates the club face a £250k shortfall due to this decision. 

Maidstone are quoted saying they will have to lay people off


----------



## Roger D (Oct 29, 2020)

Haven't had time to listen to it yet but today's Price of Football podcast is advertising that it includes a "Dulwich Hamlet NL payout interview". It's top of the list of features so may be substantial. Apparently it's Ben Clasper representing the club.


----------



## Jimbob73 (Oct 29, 2020)

Just listened, great interview with Ben as always. We are so lucky to have people like him in charge of the club. Worrying times though!


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Oct 29, 2020)

Jimbob73 said:


> Just listened, great interview with Ben as always. We are so lucky to have people like him in charge of the club. Worrying times though!



Completely echo this. Regardless of whether I think we should have changed manager, Ben's done wonders for the club and I'm not sure we'd even still be here without him.


----------



## Al Crane (Oct 29, 2020)

Jimbob73 said:


> Just listened, great interview with Ben as always. We are so lucky to have people like him in charge of the club. Worrying times though!



Would recommend listening to the whole podcast but if you don't have time then the interview with Ben starts around 34 mins in.

Bit of small talk at the start then discussion about the funding decision. Key takeaway for me was the comment that if the current model of financial assistance from the Government isn't reviewed and amended then we don't have enough money to get through the season. 

Ends with a nice plug for our merch, in particular the pink and *black* scarf with the rainbow!


----------



## Cyclodunc (Oct 29, 2020)

Moroccan Sunset said:


> Completely echo this. Regardless of whether I think we should have changed manager.



You think that?


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Oct 29, 2020)

.


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Oct 29, 2020)

Cyclodunc said:


> You think that?



Have I not mentioned it?


----------



## StephenMac (Oct 29, 2020)

Thought Ben was really good. Pointing out that 7 of 8 NL board members are from lesser supported clubs was splendid. He left it to the hosts and listener to draw their own conclusions about the utter dodginess of it all.

Kevin Day was surprisingly good too.


----------



## Cyclodunc (Oct 31, 2020)

Does the football season continue through this new lockdown?


----------



## Cyclodunc (Oct 31, 2020)

Ah. “Elite” sport can continue.


----------



## Roger D (Oct 31, 2020)

It's expected elite football will continue but organised sport is reported to be stopping below elite level.

Edited to say the FA have said they are awaiting clarification however; the governments pet journalists are reporting non elite sport will cease.


----------



## Roger D (Nov 13, 2020)

Hamlet, and others, have called for Brian Barwick to resign over the money distribution.









						Barwick Must Go
					

Dulwich Hamlet call for National League Chairman Barwick to resign.




					www.pitchero.com


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 14, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Hamlet, and others, have called for Brian Barwick to resign over the money distribution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are some notable omissions on that list of clubs putting their name to the letter: Notts County, Yeovil, Wrexham. Not sure what Dorking are signing for, I'd have thought £30k a month is no less than what they're losing in matchday revenue, although all support is welcome of course.


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 14, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> There are some notable omissions on that list of clubs putting their name to the letter: Notts County, Yeovil, Wrexham. Not sure what Dorking are signing for, I'd have thought £30k a month is no less than what they're losing in matchday revenue, although all support is welcome of course.


Interesting that the clubs have gone down this route with next to no support from the National League top division clubs. Given that the voting structure gives NL clubs one vote per club with NLN & NLS getting four votes each this is a pretty impotent threat with only Chesterfield on board. I’m guessing Dorking reason for being on board is that NL get three times the NLS & they are after a more equal split regardless of division. Then again that raises question marks over Chesterfield involvement as they could lose money on that basis.


----------



## Al Crane (Nov 18, 2020)

It seems that the National League Board are a bit upset! Strongly-worded response from them (published on Dover's website as the chairman is a member of the NL Board) but will be published elsewhere I'm sure if not already...





__





						NATIONAL LEAGUE LETTER – DOVER ATHLETIC FC
					






					www.doverathletic.com
				




Still no sign of any transparency on the funding allocation methodology; claiming that the funding was never solely on gate receipts..."Attendances and gate receipts were an element of the methodology of distribution and continue to be, but they are not the only criteria to be taken into account." 

Looking forward to the further response by the noisy minority!


----------



## StephenMac (Nov 18, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> It seems that the National League Board are a bit upset! Strongly-worded response from them (published on Dover's website as the chairman is a member of the NL Board) but will be published elsewhere I'm sure if not already...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tin pot statement, tin pot league administration. Can't possibly think why they've chosen not to litigate.


----------



## blueheaven (Nov 18, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> It seems that the National League Board are a bit upset! Strongly-worded response from them (published on Dover's website as the chairman is a member of the NL Board) but will be published elsewhere I'm sure if not already...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"We will not be running to the media" they say, in a letter addressed to a newspaper editor.


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 18, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> It seems that the National League Board are a bit upset! Strongly-worded response from them (published on Dover's website as the chairman is a member of the NL Board) but will be published elsewhere I'm sure if not already...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This sort of belligerent bullshitting response is all too typical of modern leaders whenever those with genuine concerns try to hold them to account. It's lazy, arrogant and inept. Instead of a coherent and reasoned reply he's just doubled down on justifying a half-baked plan that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. "Be grateful for what we've given you, take it or leave it" seems to be his message. Weren't Dover on the brink of going into administration before the first lockdown? He can't even run his own club properly, never mind the whole league.

I've still heard no explanation why National Division clubs are getting almost three times as big a share of this pot than those in our division. Average gate receipts can't be three times as much, even allowing for higher prices. We know playing budgets are about three times as much because our chairman told us so at a public forum, but this funding is supposed to be compensation for lost gate receipts not a direct subsidy to cover the wage bill. The whole thing is unfairly weighted against clubs that are self sufficient and amounts to a massive bonus for those with small attendance figures who are bankrolled by rich owners, and it stinks.


----------



## Cardinal (Nov 19, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> I've still heard no explanation why National Division clubs are getting almost three times as big a share of this pot than those in our division. Average gate receipts can't be three times as much, even allowing for higher prices. We know playing budgets are about three times as much because our chairman told us so at a public forum, but this funding is supposed to be compensation for lost gate receipts not a direct subsidy to cover the wage bill. The whole thing is unfairly weighted against clubs that are self sufficient and amounts to a massive bonus for those with small attendance figures who are bankrolled by rich owners, and it stinks.


The NL average attendance for 19/20 was just shy of 2200, equivalent figures for NLN (1075ish) and NLS (around 850) are less than half that. When you couple this with the higher average entry price at NL level (£18 for an adult is the norm, many clubs charge more) then it's entirely plausible that NL clubs could be bringing in almost three times the average gate receipts of clubs at NLN/NLS level. If you multiply average attendances by admission prices for each club and the money was totalled up per division (yes, I know that's a lot of work!), I think you'd see NL clubs bringing in gate receipts around 2.75-3x NLN and 3-3.25x NLS. On average.

The problem as I see it is that the largest clubs in each division have been given far too little and the smallest clubs have been given far too much. Most of the clubs in the middle (Woking included) have come out roughly where they should be. So why not simply take away from Hungerford, Concord, Braintree, etc. and give more to yourselves and Maidstone? You don't need to take away from NL clubs, the money just needs to be distributed more realistically within each division. There's plenty of scope to do that, if the will is there from the league administrators.

Oh, and based on their performance last night, Dover are heading directly for NLS without passing Go (although still getting their £200, annoyingly). So there's a good chance you can give Parmenter a piece of your mind next season, assuming fans are allowed into games again.


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 19, 2020)

Cardinal said:


> The NL average attendance for 19/20 was just shy of 2200, equivalent figures for NLN (1075ish) and NLS (around 850) are less than half that. When you couple this with the higher average entry price at NL level (£18 for an adult is the norm, many clubs charge more) then it's entirely plausible that NL clubs could be bringing in almost three times the average gate receipts of clubs at NLN/NLS level. If you multiply average attendances by admission prices for each club and the money was totalled up per division (yes, I know that's a lot of work!), I think you'd see NL clubs bringing in gate receipts around 2.75-3x NLN and 3-3.25x NLS. On average.
> 
> The problem as I see it is that the largest clubs in each division have been given far too little and the smallest clubs have been given far too much. Most of the clubs in the middle (Woking included) have come out roughly where they should be. So why not simply take away from Hungerford, Concord, Braintree, etc. and give more to yourselves and Maidstone? You don't need to take away from NL clubs, the money just needs to be distributed more realistically within each division. There's plenty of scope to do that, if the will is there from the league administrators.
> 
> Oh, and based on their performance last night, Dover are heading directly for NLS without passing Go (although still getting their £200, annoyingly). So there's a good chance you can give Parmenter a piece of your mind next season, assuming fans are allowed into games again.


Fair enough, I hadn't looked at any data I was just going on instinct. I was probably preoccupied by our own average of 2,200, which was higher than a majority of National Division clubs and about double the size of Dover's. On a typical Saturday when we're at home no more than 4 or 5 of the twelve National Division crowds seem to be higher than ours. I tend to pay most attention to our nearest neighbours Sutton and Bromley, whose figures are usually a bit below ours on the same day. As you say  it's the discrepancy between the biggest and smallest figures at each level that needs to be focused on rather than between the two levels, but it really sticks in the throat that Parmenter's club gets £252k over 3 months while we get £108k.

Our chairman observed that 7 of the 8 members of the League Management Committee represent clubs witha below average attendance figure for their division. Probably just an unfortunate coincidence but at best it looks like they haven't given the issue as much thought as they should have done before dividing the grant money. 

As for all that waffle about methodology and criteria, all they've done is award an extra 20% to a dozen clubs whose figures are above a particular threshold regardless of whether it's fractionally above or far above.


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 19, 2020)

Well this could prove interesting... Not sure of the allocation yet as the blurb refers to “...women’s football and the lower tiers of the National League.” 🤔 Wonder if they meant “National Game”? Government announces £300 million Sport Winter Survival Package to help spectator sports in England


----------



## Roger D (Nov 19, 2020)

The BBC are reporting £11m for Steps 1-2, £14m for steps 3-6 and £3m for women's football step 1 and 2.

Look forward to seeing how the board divvy that lot up...

Edited to say. The Guardian is reporting that this money is largely in the form of loans, not grants.









						Sports minister denies £300m survival package bias towards Tory heartlands
					

The government has confirmed £300m in emergency funding for spectator sports in England




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Nov 19, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The BBC are reporting £11m for Steps 1-2, £14m for steps 3-6 and £3m for women's football step 1 and 2.
> 
> Look forward to seeing how the board divvy that lot up...
> 
> ...



In completely unrelated news, Dover have tabled a multi-year contract to Lionel Messi this lunchtime.


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 19, 2020)

I can see why the NL board had gone down the route it has done, after all this split means the majority of clubs are happy with their allocation with only Dorking Wanderers of the “Resign Barwick” signatories likely to end up worse off if the allocation were done on a straight attendance numbers basis, not taking into account lost total income per spectator, lost sponsorship, players wages, management & ancillary staff wages plus any other non-matchday income. I understand some of those wages might be covered by furlough or other government grants & loans but am left wondering whether so much of this could have been avoided if someone had put together some formula that brought all the elements into play.


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 19, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The BBC are reporting £11m for Steps 1-2, £14m for steps 3-6 and £3m for women's football step 1 and 2.
> 
> Look forward to seeing how the board divvy that lot up...
> 
> ...


Sure many of the old school Hamlet fans would have noticed the massive discrepancy between the money available to Rugby Union clubs (£135million) and that available to Rugby League (less than 10% of than £12million). Of course nothing to do with one sports southern shires base and the others popularity in the North...


----------



## Roger D (Nov 19, 2020)

As a RL fan, sadly, I think the fact this is largely loans explains that. The finances in RL are not good. The next TV deal is expected to be badly down, likewise sponsorship revenues. The RFL wasn't in a great shape financially even before this. The sport just isn't in position to take on big loans. A financial reckoning is looming within the sport.

I'd love to think this was pro union bias, sadly I think it has far more to do with the state of RL in Britain. 

BTW Brian Barwick was important in RL until recently. He left the sport in a great state, not.


----------



## the 12th man (Nov 20, 2020)

CLUB STATEMENT | COVID-19 - Welling United FC
					

The Club have today been notified that one of the playing staff has tested positive for COVID-19. As a result, the Club have taken the decision, along with The National League, to postpone tomorrow’s match against Havant & Waterlooville. Following this COVID-19 event, the entire playing squad...




					www.wellingunited.com
				




This definitely won't be the last club in our division and very close to home........


----------



## bkbk (Nov 23, 2020)

London is reportedly going to be Tier 2


----------



## chris gil (Nov 23, 2020)

Fans set to be allowed at outdoor sports
					

Up to 4,000 fans are set to be allowed at outdoor events in the lowest-risk areas when the national lockdown in England ends.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## pinknblue (Nov 23, 2020)

bkbk said:


> London is reportedly going to be Tier 2



And Boris said restrictions in each tier would be tighter!!!!! Don't get me wrong, it would be great to watch some live football if it's genuinely safe to do so, but the messages from Government continue to be ridiculously mixed and chaotic. I wish they'd identify their priority and just stick to it; that way we might see some concerted progress.


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Nov 23, 2020)

bkbk said:


> London is reportedly going to be Tier 2




This is excellent news.


----------



## Cat Daisy (Nov 23, 2020)

So 1500 allowed in?! Yet London is in Tier 2? This seriously doesn't make sense!


----------



## pompeydunc (Nov 23, 2020)

bkbk said:


> London is reportedly going to be Tier 2




We should pull up the bridges, as South London would be tier 1, if it wasn't for those pesky superspreaders north of the Thames.


----------



## pompeydunc (Nov 23, 2020)

Moroccan Sunset said:


> This is excellent news.



Does this mean we get to see you spontaneously combust in the flesh when we sign 3 more unknowns on the eve of a game, play long ball with one up front, put Reise on the wing and make a loan player captain?


----------



## Moroccan Sunset (Nov 23, 2020)

pompeydunc said:


> Does this mean we get to see you spontaneously combust in the flesh when we sign 3 more unknowns on the eve of a game, play long ball with one up front, put Reise on the wing and make a loan player captain?



You're joking, right? It's bad enough when it's free to watch! 😁


----------



## StephenMac (Nov 23, 2020)

The closest you'll get to a scientific consensus now (compared with the start of the pandemic) is that the risk of contracting Covid outdoors is minimal, if you take minor precautions. 50% capacity seems very doable in a safe way.

I'd give the clubhouse a swerve though.


----------



## Roger D (Nov 23, 2020)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the capacity may be lower than initially suspected. 

Talking to a friend involved at Shots, one of their ex officials, who has a background in this stuff, has said it is the lower of x thousand or 50%, subject to social distancing.

DCMS have yet to outline these social distancing requirements but he suspects it will be as per the existing SGSA SG02 document that has previously been flagged on this thread. 

50% at Shots is over 3500 however; the club previously stated their capacity under SG02 would be 1900 - 2100. That's a ground with a lot more space than the Hamlet have.

I'm sure the club will speak as soon as the necessary details are out but one to be aware of.


----------



## editor (Nov 23, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the capacity may be lower than initially suspected.
> 
> Talking to a friend involved at Shots, one of their ex officials, who has a background in this stuff, has said it is the lower of x thousand or 50%, subject to social distancing.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't have thought anything above around 500-600 would be safe. There's not a lot of space at Champion Hill.


----------



## Cat Daisy (Nov 23, 2020)

Er, Steps 1 and 2 seem to be missing?


----------



## baleboy_93 (Nov 23, 2020)

Cat Daisy said:


> Er, Steps 1 and 2 seem to be missing?



Because we’ve been playing through lockdown, this is saying the Isthmian and below can resume, along with the women’s team.


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 23, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> The closest you'll get to a scientific consensus now (compared with the start of the pandemic) is that the risk of contracting Covid outdoors is minimal, if you take minor precautions. 50% capacity seems very doable in a safe way.
> 
> I'd give the clubhouse a swerve though.


I doubt the clubhouse will be open anyway given the only way in and out is via a narrow corridor. I find it hard to believe many people have caught this virus by standing out in the open air, but of course there's no way of being certain of that. Having been to the two women's matches with crowds of 600 it didn't feel crowded to me, I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed 50% of capacity.

I can't make any sense of Johnson's Tiers of a Clown. You can't have some clubs playing with 50% capacity (well above normal average attendance for most in our division) but tell others to play behind closed doors. You can't operate a league like that,  it's just not fair. I'm still adamant that this season should never have started behind closed doors


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Nov 23, 2020)

Yeah the clubhouse would be risky. Its gets very hot and crowded in there, with lack of air circulation, I realise we won't be at full capacity but at times when we have been it felt i spent the majority of the afternoon cheek by jowl queuing for the bar or the toilets.


----------



## blueheaven (Nov 24, 2020)

pinknblue said:


> And Boris said restrictions in each tier would be tighter!!!!! Don't get me wrong, it would be great to watch some live football if it's genuinely safe to do so, but the messages from Government continue to be ridiculously mixed and chaotic. I wish they'd identify their priority and just stick to it; that way we might see some concerted progress.



Completely agree - such confusing, mixed messages.

Personally I think any number over 1,000 at Champion Hill is going to be too high to adequately maintain social distancing.


----------



## StephenMac (Nov 24, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> I doubt the clubhouse will be open anyway given the only way in and out is via a narrow corridor. I find it hard to believe many people have caught this virus by standing out in the open air, but of course there's no way of being certain of that. Having been to the two women's matches with crowds of 600 it didn't feel crowded to me, I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed 50% of capacity.
> 
> I can't make any sense of Johnson's Tiers of a Clown. You can't have some clubs playing with 50% capacity (well above normal average attendance for most in our division) but tell others to play behind closed doors. You can't operate a league like that,  it's just not fair. I'm still adamant that this season should never have started behind closed doors


The science points to two main modes of transmission, droplets and aerosols. 

Droplets can be avoided by distancing, not facing the person you're talking to, wearing a mask or all of the above. This wasn't known at the outset but is now. It also appears that transmission from touching contaminated surfaces probably isn't really a thing.

Aerosols seems to have been a huge transmitter and the risk is associated with prolonged gatherings of people indoors without thorough ventilation. Social distancing in these scenarios appears to be of very limited use. The aerosols just hang in the air, spreading throughout the enclosed area over time. Sorry pub people.

Based on this I don't see why there can't be a decent sized crowd outdoors at Champion Hill. If you doubt that, and obviously this random bloke on a message board is not an epidemiologist, you might want to ponder why games at step 3 and below before lockdown 2 didn't turn out to be epicentres of infection given that many paid lip service to infection prevention at best.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2020)

I wouldn't like to be in a crowd much bigger than this one, to be honest.

























						Dulwich Hamlet heartbreak as women’s team lose 0-1 to Orient in FA Cup clash, Sunday 18th Oct 2020
					

Dulwich Hamlet Women’s team crashed out the FA cup yesterday after narrowly losing 0-1 to Leyton Orient Women in a close fought match at Champion Hill.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## StephenMac (Nov 24, 2020)

editor said:


> I wouldn't like to be in a crowd much bigger than this one, to be honest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is obviously your call but I would say that is instinctive, rather than evidence-based.

Not that much social distancing going on at the front of that middle pic, by the way - if that's agreed distancing then you could get a lot more than 600 or so in.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> Which is obviously your call but I would say that is instinctive, rather than evidence-based.


Except there is no definitive 'evidence' or yardstick of exactly what level of social distancing is necessary in these circumstances, so I can only go on what I feel comfortable with - and I definitely wouldn't feel too comfortable with 1,000 people in Champion Hill.


----------



## StephenMac (Nov 24, 2020)

editor said:


> Except there is no definitive 'evidence' or yardstick of exactly what level of social distancing is necessary in these circumstances, so I can only go on what I feel comfortable with - and I definitely wouldn't feel too comfortable with 1,000 people in Champion Hill.


Sounds like you're agreeing with what I said about your reasoning then. You'll soon have Peckham Town back though, so you're laughing.

Not sure where you going with "definitive 'evidence' " though.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> Sounds like you're agreeing with what I said about your reasoning then. You'll soon have Peckham Town back though, so you're laughing.
> 
> Not sure where you going with "definitive 'evidence' " though.


The point being is that there is no official yardstick that can be used to accurately measure risk, unless you blindly trust whatever one-size-fits-all measures the government trots out.

Really not sure what Peckham  Town has got to do with this conversation.


----------



## StephenMac (Nov 24, 2020)

editor said:


> The point being is that there is no official yardstick that can be used to accurately measure risk, unless you blindly trust whatever one-size-fits-all measures the government trots out.
> 
> Really not sure what Peckham  Town has got to do with this conversation.


I mean you'll get your football fix at Peckham, nothing sinister.

I have nothing but contempt for the government and its handling of the pandemic. That's not remotely anything to do with what I've said though. I'm going by evidence published by and through WHO. I'm not suggesting you go and read it all but unfortunately it forms part of my job.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> I mean you'll get your football fix at Peckham, nothing sinister.
> 
> I have nothing but contempt for the government and its handling of the pandemic. That's not remotely anything to do with what I've said though. I'm going by evidence published by and through WHO. I'm not suggesting you go and read it all but unfortunately it forms part of my job.


I've read an awful lot of the current guidance as it happens, and my point still stands.


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 24, 2020)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> Yeah the clubhouse would be risky. Its gets very hot and crowded in there, with lack of air circulation, I realise we won't be at full capacity but at times when we have been it felt i spent the majority of the afternoon cheek by jowl queuing for the bar or the toilets.


Interesting to mention the toilets given the woeful provision at Champion Hill. If you’re no going to allow supporters to queue to get into the bar going to make queuing for upstairs toilets particularly difficult especially as the ground’s one and only Disabled/Accessible toilet is at the top of the stairs. Roll on the new ground where one the accessible provision can be increased and two Dulwich Hamlet can take the lead at football with gender neutral toilets...


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## Nivag (Nov 24, 2020)

There's gender neutral toilets already if you count the portaloos


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 24, 2020)

Nivag said:


> There's gender neutral toilets already if you count the portaloos


Possibly more a case of a few people requiring a larger cubicle. Those portaloos are a tight squeeze even if you're fully mobile and not especially large.


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 24, 2020)

Nivag said:


> There's gender neutral toilets already if you count the portaloos


Are the portapotties back as the last game I attended nearly a year ago (work commitments etc) they seemed to have disappeared. Unless every incarnation of the Doctor turned up & whoop-whooped them out of Champion Hill. On a serious note first came across gender neutral toilets watching handball in Denmark and it was all very civilised with everyone taking their turn. Cubicles wall to floor so note of that English “Carry On” style peeking! That said the ground’s actual accessible toilet provision is pretty poor though given there are less than 15 wheelchair spaces the one toilet is probably legal and something that is tough for the club to change. I expect this to be rectified in the new ground. I’d also hope that some of them have the radar key so that those that genuinely need them don’t have to wait because someone decides to nip in to avoid the queue..


----------



## Paula_G (Nov 24, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> Possibly more a case of a few people requiring a larger cubicle. Those portaloos are a tight squeeze even if you're fully mobile and not especially large.


Indeed... even more so if one’s bladder is a plastic bag glued to one’s hip! I’d bet good money too I’m not the only fan in this situation given there is around 100,000 of us in the U.K.


----------



## T Corcoran (Nov 26, 2020)

Looks like we're tier 2 so I'm guessing 2000 fans are allowed to be in Champion Hill?


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## jimbarkanoodle (Nov 26, 2020)

i think it will be 50% as that is lower than 2000. So- 1,500?


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## StephenMac (Nov 26, 2020)

I fear it will be more complicated than that. Roger has set out why elsewhere in this thread.


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## Pink Panther (Nov 26, 2020)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> i think it will be 50% as that is lower than 2000. So- 1,500?


Capacity was 3,300 for the Carlisle game, so 50% is 1,650. However I suspect there will  be further regulations specific to each ground that may bring that figure down.


----------



## Al Crane (Nov 26, 2020)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> i think it will be 50% as that is lower than 2000. So- 1,500?



It will be lower than that. There's a heirarchy as to how many spectators are permitted and it's the *lowest figure* that is applied:

1. 2000 fans is the max.
2. then 50% of capacity (so for us that would be 1668).
*3. then socially-distanced capacity - which for us will be even less than 50%*

We can speculate what that figure will be, but we need to wait for the club to announce the figure, suffice to say I would expect that all season ticket holders should be able to attend.


----------



## jonesyboyo (Nov 26, 2020)

Does anyone have any guess re. away supporters for champion hill and our away matches? I'm especially interested in Hungerford Sat Dec 5th, as last season was a good day out...plus a 4-1 win


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## Al Cunningham (Nov 26, 2020)

I reckon between 500 and 1000 as there were quite a few reminders about the need to socially distance more at the DHWFC game against Orient which if  I remember had just below 600.


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## Northants Dal (Nov 26, 2020)

How many season ticket holders do we have?


----------



## Nivag (Nov 26, 2020)

Northants Dal said:


> How many season ticket holders do we have?


over 600 from what I've heard


----------



## Roger D (Nov 26, 2020)

There may be a wait for a capacity figure to be announced. It appears the league are still awaiting the arrival of some key info.






						Dagenham & Redbridge FC | CLUB STATEMENT: Return Of Spectators
					

Read the following statement from the Club regarding the return of spectators.




					www.daggers.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 26, 2020)

jonesyboyo said:


> Does anyone have any guess re. away supporters for champion hill and our away matches? I'm especially interested in Hungerford Sat Dec 5th, as last season was a good day out...plus a 4-1 win


Hungerford normally get crowds of about 300 so I doubt it will be a sellout, but personally I'd be wary of travelling without a prepaid online ticket. It looks like every club in the division except Tonbridge, Ebbsfleet and Maidstone will be allowed to admit supporters under the same conditions as ourselves. I just hope all the relevant boxes can be ticked in time for Saturday week. 

Probably not much point asking to put next Tuesday's home game with St Albans back to the Wednesday after reading that link to the Dagenham statement.


----------



## TonyWalt (Nov 26, 2020)

jonesyboyo said:


> Does anyone have any guess re. away supporters for champion hill and our away matches? I'm especially interested in Hungerford Sat Dec 5th, as last season was a good day out...plus a 4-1 win


I was wondering this too. I expect if home attendance doesn’t use all of the allotted capacity in other tier 2 grounds, it would make sense for clubs to give a number of tickets to away fans.


----------



## TonyWalt (Nov 26, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> Hungerford normally get crowds of about 300 so I doubt it will be a sellout, but personally I'd be wary of travelling without a prepaid online ticket. It looks like every club in the division except Tonbridge, Ebbsfleet and Maidstone will be allowed to admit supporters under the same conditions as ourselves. I just hope all the relevant boxes can be ticked in time for Saturday week.
> 
> Probably not much point asking to put next Tuesday's home game with St Albans back to the Wednesday after reading that link to the Dagenham statement.


Is Dartford in the tier 3 zone do you think?


----------



## Northants Dal (Nov 26, 2020)

TonyWalt said:


> Is Dartford in the tier 3 zone do you think?



Yes, all of Kent is Tier 3


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 26, 2020)

TonyWalt said:


> Is Dartford in the tier 3 zone do you think?


Sorry, missed them off my list of Kent clubs by mistake, I knew there must be a fourth one! They won't be allowed to admit supporters but Welling will, even though they're only a few miles apart.


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## the 12th man (Nov 26, 2020)

It was also announced that Slough was to go into Tier 3 while the rest of Berkshire goes into Tier 2.


----------



## Roger D (Nov 26, 2020)

Ollie Bayliss is reporting the league meets the government tomorrow. They then meet with the member clubs on Tuesday. Should be a nice fun meeting.


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 26, 2020)

the 12th man said:


> It was also announced that Slough was to go into Tier 3 while the rest of Berkshire goes into Tier 2.


Slough, Tonbridge and Dartford are our last three away games of the season in May, we've already visited Ebbsfleet, so unless the sands shift once again the next behind closed doors away game should be Maidstone in February.


----------



## Roger D (Nov 27, 2020)

Various step 5 and 6 clubs are reporting the FA meeting last night advised those in tier two must keep clubhouses closed on resumption. Takeaway is permitted but cannot be consumed in the ground. Presumably that will be true at step two as well.

Various leagues badly hit by having clubs in tier three, no fans permitted, are now trying to work out whether to play on or suspend the season and hope their area moves out of tier three soon. This has the potential to stuff up promotion to tier two at the end of the season. The shorter term decision on whether to play on may impact local SCEFL clubs.

Edited to say Ollie Bayliss is now saying he believes grassroots teams will not be allowed to travel in/out of tier three so Peckham's league may also be impacted.


----------



## pompeydunc (Nov 27, 2020)

Roger D said:


> There may be a wait for a capacity figure to be announced. It appears the league are still awaiting the arrival of some key info.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How could anyone possibly predict that at some point a phased return of supporters would happen?!

Oh, right, yeah, it's blindingly obvious...and having all the ducks lined up in advance of the change would have been sensible and easy to do. Oh.


----------



## pompeydunc (Nov 27, 2020)

Telford have requested to put their match back a day to accommodate supporters.









						Club Statement: Tier 2 announcement - AFC Telford United
					

Following today’s announcement that Shropshire and Telford & Wrekin has been placed in Tier 2, AFC Telford United are looking forward to welcoming our fans back to the New Bucks Head. The Football Club can confirm we have contacted both the National League and Hereford to request that next...




					www.telfordunited.com


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Nov 27, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Various step 5 and 6 clubs are reporting the FA meeting last night advised those in tier two must keep clubhouses closed on resumption. Takeaway is permitted but cannot be consumed in the ground. Presumably that will be true at step two as well.
> 
> Various leagues badly hit by having clubs in tier three, no fans permitted, are now trying to work out whether to play on or suspend the season and hope their area moves out of tier three soon. This has the potential to stuff up promotion to tier two at the end of the season. The shorter term decision on whether to play on may impact local SCEFL clubs.



BYOB Down the hill, then?


----------



## Roger D (Nov 27, 2020)

pompeydunc said:


> Telford have requested to put their match back a day to accommodate supporters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ollie Bayliss is reporting the league will not consider such requests until they receive further information from the DCMS.

Hopefully they'll also ask whether the grants will continue in January and beyond. Now fans are - probably - back and much of Step 3 - 6 is going behind closed doors there must be a real risk that funding will go. 

You'll need a lot of matches each month with only a few paying spectators, most will presumably be season ticket holders, and little secondary spend to make up £30/36k post tax. I can see cash flow problems for a few clubs if the grant is scrapped for those permitted spectators


----------



## Roger D (Nov 27, 2020)

Had a text from a friend. Apparently Ben was on BBC London news this lunchtime talking about the return of fans / need for ongoing government funding


----------



## mick mccartney (Nov 27, 2020)

for what it's worth , Chelsea Women have announced 2000/4000 capacity at Kingsmeadow .


----------



## Bugpowder Dust (Nov 27, 2020)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> BYOB Down the hill, then?



Could do corkage fee at the gate, £1 a can


----------



## dcdulwich (Nov 27, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Had a text from a friend. Apparently Ben was on BBC London news this lunchtime talking about the return of fans / need for ongoing government funding


It’s here - about 6 mins in - but is deleted tomorrow (Saturday) after the next lunchtime news.








						BBC One - BBC London, Lunchtime News, 27/11/2020
					

The latest news, sport and weather from London.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Cyclodunc (Nov 27, 2020)

Thought we might catch a glimpse of the floodlight


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 27, 2020)

Cyclodunc said:


> Thought we might catch a glimpse of the floodlight


This was the best I could manage by looking over the wall from the other end, with the top of the pylon lying on the edge of the pitch.


----------



## jonesyboyo (Nov 29, 2020)

I've now seen a post on the moral victory facebook page that the Hungerford match will be all ticket, and they go on sale Wednesday


----------



## Pink Panther (Nov 29, 2020)

jonesyboyo said:


> I've now seen a post on the moral victory facebook page that the Hungerford match will be all ticket, and they go on sale Wednesday


Let's hope it doesn't get washed out at lunchtime like the original fixture a couple of weeks ago. I don't want to be stuck with a match ticket for a game that ends up on a Tuesday night. Midweek peak period train fares are stupidly expensive on Great Western Ripoff.


----------



## Roger D (Dec 4, 2020)

The Guardian online is quoting the London Director of Public Health England as saying he thinks London is in danger of having to move into tier three, which would see behind closed doors matches again.


----------



## Pink Panther (Dec 4, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The Guardian online is quoting the London Director of Public Health England as saying he thinks London is in danger of having to move into tier three, which would see behind closed doors matches again.


This just reinforces my view that the season should have been cancelled altogether. I think all of us are expecting yet another lockdown once Christmas is out of the way as it is. You can't keep moving the goalposts on a weekly basis after so many people have put so much effort into complying with onerous new regulations. How on earth is any business supposed to operate under these conditions?

It's barely 48 hours since the lockdown was lifted. There's no way anyone can measure any fall or rise in infections over such a short time. If infections are rising it must have begun before the lockdown was lifted, in which case it makes yet another lockdown look futile to me. Everything has become far too complex and divisive. The entire country should be treated the same in my view, whether that's more strictly or more leniently. Just stop faffing about and confusing everything.


----------



## Roger D (Dec 4, 2020)

It's not due to the rate rising in London. The infection rate in London has stagnated on the last four days, not fallen, which is worrying him.

I think he's trying to get a message out that the area is being watched carefully, and that actions have consequences, ahead of the weekend and, in a longer view, Christmas.

Not read the article but a headline has just popped up, the Welsh First Minister has said the rate has stopped falling there too so it may be part of a co-ordinated media strategy. Probably not mind.


----------



## Roger D (Dec 6, 2020)

Not Hamlet related but worth noting  Weymouth have announced that, due to issues on Saturday, they have been ordered to reduce their capacity on Tuesday. 

They have warned fans that further issues on Tuesday will probably seen fans banned from the ground.


----------



## StephenMac (Dec 6, 2020)

Roger D said:


> Not Hamlet related but worth noting  Weymouth have announced that, due to issues on Saturday, they have been ordered to reduce their capacity on Tuesday.
> 
> They have warned fans that further issues on Tuesday will probably seen fans banned from the ground.


Do you know what went on? I saw that somebody ended up on the pitch.

I think there will be widely differing levels of enforcement, depending on the club and local authority's attitude. Hungerford did it all pretty well yesterday. People were being sensible without being obsessive. There was a seemingly abandoned one way system which didn't matter as there was loads of room to move about. One official was going around telling people to put their masks on in the first half, which wasn't actually one of the stipulations, but people were generally left to not be idiots. 

I left my mask on anyway because it was a handy added layer against the cold.


----------



## Cat Daisy (Dec 6, 2020)

Is this because it was on TV? Televised matches this season seem to bring out the worst in people. (Mind you after losing 1-5 maybe the crowd will thin itself out?)


----------



## dcdulwich (Dec 6, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> Do you know what went on? I saw that somebody ended up on the pitch.
> 
> I think there will be widely differing levels of enforcement, depending on the club and local authority's attitude. Hungerford did it all pretty well yesterday. People were being sensible without being obsessive. There was a seemingly abandoned one way system which didn't matter as there was loads of room to move about. One official was going around telling people to put their masks on in the first half, which wasn't actually one of the stipulations, but people were generally left to not be idiots.
> 
> I left my mask on anyway because it was a handy added layer against the cold.



The single person on the pitch thing was done for a bet. They've been bailed to appear in court in January at which point I imagine they'll throw the most part of a decent sized library at him. 

They also had fans who were militantly refusing to social distance. They were not known to the club. It may well get closed down (as you say theyre going to a further-reduced capacity anyway) and regular fans will be fucked over by a bunch of numpties. 

We'll probably be in Tier 3 come January anyway...


----------



## StephenMac (Dec 6, 2020)

dcdulwich said:


> The single person on the pitch thing was done for a bet. They've been bailed to appear in court in January at which point I imagine they'll throw the most part of a decent sized library at him.
> 
> They also had fans who were militantly refusing to social distance. They were not known to the club. It may well get closed down (as you say theyre going to a further-reduced capacity anyway) and regular fans will be fucked over by a bunch of numpties.
> 
> We'll probably be in Tier 3 come January anyway...


That makes grim reading. Hopefully we haven't got a sizeable covid denier bunch within our lot, if that was what was going on at Weymouth.

Completely agree though, it will take a miracle not to be in tier 3 in January. Obviously that won't be because of people going to football though, it'll be because of the five day wheeze the government have come up with that will form the perfect conditions for huge amounts of Covid transmission later this month.


----------



## Cyclodunc (Dec 6, 2020)

Couldn’t agree with you more!


----------



## Roger D (Dec 6, 2020)

StephenMac said:


> Do you know what went on?



The Weymouth statement refers to people refusing to socially distance, smuggling in alcohol and smoking in the ground.


----------



## Pink Panther (Dec 6, 2020)

Roger D said:


> The Weymouth statement refers to people refusing to socially distance, smuggling in alcohol and smoking in the ground.


It looks like they were allowed 800 and were expecting to be allowed more at the next game, but instead the number has been cut with a threat to ban everyone in the event of a recurrence. 

Some people don't quite seem to grasp the concept of a club. You agree to respect club rules when you pay to enter, you don't just ignore the rules you don't like. If you won't do that, stay away.


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## MrFab_JP (Dec 9, 2020)

Great win last night, and it was nice to be back. though in terms of social distancing, with that many people in I don't think it's possible.

Also it appears the request of the club, not to change ends at half time was largely ignored. would also be nice if people didn't vape and blow the vapor around...


----------



## NPDHFC (Dec 9, 2020)

Interesting to see the approach that Oxford City have taken to opening up again. Obviously different circumstances for us in terms of size of supporter base etc.









						Supporters return to Oxford City tonight
					

OXFORD City will welcome 100 fans back to Court Place Farm tonight.




					www.heraldseries.co.uk


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## NPDHFC (Dec 9, 2020)

> Supporters have been asked to confirm which zone of the stadium they want to watch tonight’s match from, with movement around the pitch perimeter kept to a minimum.
> 
> Multiple entrances will be in operation, with staggered arrival times for each section of the ground.
> 
> Fans have a designated 20-minute window to enter the stadium and will not be allowed in if they do not arrive at the right time.


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## EDC (Dec 9, 2020)

I think the capacity has been set about right, I wouldn't like there to be any more than last night at present.  The place was a bloody mess at the end though, how difficult is it to put beer cups in a bin?


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## AveryDave (Dec 9, 2020)

Congratulations and thank you to everyone at the club who worked so hard to allow last night to happen. There were always going to be challenges for a first time implementing the rules and processes necessary, and from my experience it was a big success. The majority of people I saw were clearly mindful of the situation and occasion and I didn't feel at risk at any point. I think the main thing is people were able to take the precautions they thought necessary, and if that was standing apart from others at a distance they were comfortable with, there was room to do that.

I'm sure there will be lessons learned from last night, but for my part they could only improve on what was a clearly well considered and well implemented plan - thank you again to all those that put in the long hours to make it happen.


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## Pink Panther (Dec 22, 2020)

Al Crane said:


> It seems that the National League Board are a bit upset! Strongly-worded response from them (published on Dover's website as the chairman is a member of the NL Board) but will be published elsewhere I'm sure if not already...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, the independent review panel has asked the National League to show transparency to no avail:



What exactly do they have to hide? Just publish the report so everyone can see how the decision on how to divide the lottery funding was made.


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## Al Crane (Dec 22, 2020)

Pretty damning response from Bernstein and says everything about the way the NL board run this shitshow!


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## Pink Panther (Dec 22, 2020)

A more comprehensive statement:









						David Bernstein sends damning open letter to the National League over £10m government grant distribution
					

News and opinion on the Non-League football scene from its most trusted source – The Non-League Paper, a weekly UK newspaper reporting on Step 1 and below.



					www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com


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## Pink Panther (Dec 22, 2020)

Another damming report on the matter. Those responsible really aren't coming out of this very well:









						National League angers Bernstein over funding review
					

Former FA chairman David Bernstein hits out at the National League over their handling of the allocation of government funding to support clubs.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## pinknblue (Dec 23, 2020)

Is it possible for us to speak to Vanarama the NL sponsors about this? Surely they can put pressure on the NL board to come clean. I'm sure the NL would not want to lose its sponsors at this time.


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## PartisanDulwich (Dec 23, 2020)

This is getting serious
and as always the cover up is always worse
pleased our Club once again showed Leadership and challenged (with others) what is obviously a monumental disaster or worse


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## Pink Panther (Dec 23, 2020)

pinknblue said:


> Is it possible for us to speak to Vanarama the NL sponsors about this? Surely they can put pressure on the NL board to come clean. I'm sure the NL would not want to lose its sponsors at this time.


It worked with Adidas when Meadow tried to hire out Champion Hill for commercial filming after kicking us out. I think YTC masterminded that.


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## Nivag (Dec 26, 2020)

Dulwich Hamlet boss Gavin Rose: We deserve better protection – we’re taking a risk every time we train or play matches
					

Gavin Rose was fully supportive of Dulwich Hamlet matches going back behind closed doors - and reckons players at their level are taking greater risks because of a lack of adequate testing measures.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk


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## bkbk (Dec 26, 2020)

Thats quite interesting. Are we signing players whilst we have others furloughed?

Barely any games are getting played at present. Minded to think it should all just be packed in for a bit.


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## Nivag (Dec 26, 2020)

bkbk said:


> Thats quite interesting. Are we signing players whilst we have others furloughed?
> 
> Barely any games are getting played at present. Minded to think it should all just be packed in for a bit.


I found the furlough part odd too.
I'm guessing the players would rather stay and get paid 80% than actually play football.


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## Pink Panther (Dec 27, 2020)

Nivag said:


> Dulwich Hamlet boss Gavin Rose: We deserve better protection – we’re taking a risk every time we train or play matches
> 
> 
> Gavin Rose was fully supportive of Dulwich Hamlet matches going back behind closed doors - and reckons players at their level are taking greater risks because of a lack of adequate testing measures.
> ...


I think the football authorities and some managers are looking at all this from completely the wrong perspective. Never mind whether or not our level should have been designed as "elite". Surely it makes no sense for the National Division or the two lowest divisions of the Football League to play out the season in front of empty stadiums? It must be costing a fortune with no paying spectators. Where on earth is all the money coming from, and is it a wise use of funds?

I listened to a lengthy online interview with Dorking Wanderers chairman-manager Marc White last week. He made some interesting points, emphasising that clubs at our level are very much businesses which is fair enough. He reckons it would cost each club £7-£8k a month to implement the sort of weekly routine testing needed to offer the level of protection Gavin Rose is talking about. White also suggested that any club that can't afford to spend that is probably playing beyond its natural level. Hang on, that figure accounts for approximately 25% of the National Lottery funding package. No one will have budgeted to spend that money at the start of the season, or to play for so long without matchday revenue, and many clubs including our own will already be out of pocket due to losses not being covered by the funding package.

If it's still not safe or practical to have supporters in the ground three months after the season started it's time to cancel the season, or at the very least suspend all fixtures and furlough the players until such time as supporters can return. What on earth is the point in spunking thousands of pounds a month on testing players so they can play in empty grounds?


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## Stuart Fordyce (Dec 27, 2020)

Nivag said:


> I found the furlough part odd too.
> I'm guessing the players would rather stay and get paid 80% than actually play football.


Was that not the Case with a few last year? Rightly and legally held them to contract rather than risk unemployment which is what we're talking about here?


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## Roger D (Dec 27, 2020)

They may not have much option, even if they would rather play. Few teams at this level seem to be recruiting and very few teams locally can even play for the foreseeable future, due to tier four, so no options there either.


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## bkbk (Dec 27, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> Was that not the Case with a few last year? Rightly and legally held them to contract rather than risk unemployment which is what we're talking about here?



I think that was when we couldn't play ourselves.

Not necessarily questioning any decisions just interested to know how it all works.


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## Pink Panther (Dec 27, 2020)

Roger D said:


> They may not have much option, even if they would rather play. Few teams at this level seem to be recruiting and very few teams locally can even play for the foreseeable future, due to tier four, so no options there either.


It's not Tier 4 causing all the postponements, it's positive virus tests within (at the last count) 8 different squads in the division. We're still due to play at Hampton tomorrow.


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## TonyWalt (Dec 27, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> It's not Tier 4 causing all the postponements, it's positive virus tests within (at the last count) 8 different squads in the division. We're still due to play at Hampton tomorrow.


I’m surprised we have got this far without Covid itself putting a stop to loads of fixtures as it now has.
I wonder what the teams do now? Continue to train, with no testing and putting themselves and families at risk, whilst hoping that their next fixture isn’t going to be postponed?

I don’t agree with the: what’s the point of playing with no fans in the stadiums, argument. With the live streams on YouTube and the ever brilliant radio commentary from Tom Bale, fans are STILL able to enjoy the trials and tribulations of supporting Dulwich Hamlet. Giving structure and interest to the week, leading up to KO, when for 90minutes we can engross ourselves in the wonder of this game we all love. In these pretty dark days, that’s something precious.

Elite or not though, unless clubs can afford to get their players and staff regularly tested, or better still: this stupid government had got testing sorted out (by now) so that people ARE allowed to get a test WITHOUT them showing symptoms (which you are not allowed to do, tho they keep telling us 1 in 3 people with covid are a-symptomatic)...we should just freeze the season and it’s fixtures for now imo.


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## Roger D (Dec 28, 2020)

Pink Panther said:


> It's not Tier 4 causing all the postponements, it's positive virus tests within (at the last count) 8 different squads in the division. We're still due to play at Hampton tomorrow.



I meant that players can't drop down to step three to play, whether on loan or permanent. No football is permitted in tier four, with the exception of elite football.


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## liamdhfc (Dec 28, 2020)

Nivag said:


> I found the furlough part odd too.
> I'm guessing the players would rather stay and get paid 80% than actually play football.


The club will be paying 100% of salary with 80% reclaimed. That's how all contracts were honoured last season.


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## Pink Panther (Dec 28, 2020)

Roger D said:


> I meant that players can't drop down to step three to play, whether on loan or permanent. No football is permitted in tier four, with the exception of elite football.


Ah OK, I'm with you now.

This tiers thing is hopeless for football. It's totally impractical for clubs in different areas or at different levels, playing in the same competitions, to keep going under different rules. (Look at the farce with the Maidstone v Frome FA Trophy tie.) The FA and National League have led with inertia throughout.


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## pompeydunc (Dec 29, 2020)

Nivag said:


> I found the furlough part odd too.
> I'm guessing the players would rather stay and get paid 80% than actually play football.



If that's correct, it's a shocking waste of taxpayers money. Surely it should not be permitted to furlough players that are not playing? They are still part of the squad and our club is operating, rightly or wrongly.

It creates a false incentive to roll the dice and sign more players to replace non-performing contracted players if we know the government are going to pick up 80% of their contract.

As for testing players at this level, then GR needs a reality check. We are a non-league club, and not a club with TV and significant commercial income. No way routine testing can be afforded, and even if there was money kicking around, then there are many other items this would be better spent on. Testing is not offered for people in most normal jobs. Why should a non-league footballer be different?


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## Pink Panther (Dec 29, 2020)

pompeydunc said:


> As for testing players at this level, then GR needs a reality check. We are a non-league club, and not a club with TV and significant commercial income. No way routine testing can be afforded, and even if there was money kicking around, then there are many other items this would be better spent on. Testing is not offered for people in most normal jobs. Why should a non-league footballer be different?


It's not surprising that GR or other individual managers get carried away with the whole "elite sports" thing. I can't imagine how much time and energy they must devote to their roles and it must be something of a rat race when you reach this level. They now believe they should have these things because they've seen it happening at the next level above, which they themselves aspire to reach. 

I blame the various authorities for allowing the situation to develop in the first place: leagues, the FA, the government. These are the people with the authority to put a stop to it. All this nonsense began at the start of the pandemic with people demanding play-offs and promotion (and consequently relegation) even though the league fixtures hadn't been completed. There simply isn't a commercial justification for playing more than a few games behind closed doors once you get more than one level below the Premier League.


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## Pink Panther (Dec 30, 2020)

Regarding the proposalfor weekly testing of players, it appears that the Football League has only been carrying out "targeted testing" as mentioned towards the end of this article:









						Allardyce wants break as Covid cases rise
					

West Brom boss Sam Allardyce says football needs a break after the Premier League returns its highest number of positive coronavirus tests.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




During last night's football commentary on Radio 5 it was mentioned that all Football League squads were tested during pre-season but most have only been tested once or twice since. The logistics and cost of testing over 150 squads of players, i.e. every elite club from the Premier League down to our level, on a weekly basis would be a vast increase on what's been in place so far. That's got to be close to 4,000 personnel in total with coaching and medical staff and once again I'd question whether that's a wise use of resources.


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## pinknblue (Dec 30, 2020)

We're about to enter the New Year and we've just about played about 1/4 of our league matches for the season. This leaves us 30 games left to play. If we play twice a week, every week from now on we'll finish the season in mid-April. With little prospect of things getting better until Easter, January weather to come and games being cancelled all over the place with positive test results, it must be very dubious that we'll manage to complete the season unless we run into the early summer again. I really don't think the season should have ever started!


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## bkbk (Dec 31, 2020)

Former Wolves winger signs for Dulwich Hamlet
					

Dulwich Hamlet have signed former Wolves winger Andrew Jay Harris-Sealy. The National League South side have agreed a sell-on with the 22-year-old’s previous club Farnborough.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk
				






> Dulwich Hamlet have signed former Wolves winger Andrew Jay Harris-Sealy.
> 
> The National League South side have agreed a sell-on with the 22-year-old’s previous club Farnborough.
> 
> ...



Hmmm


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## Stuart Fordyce (Dec 31, 2020)

bkbk said:


> Former Wolves winger signs for Dulwich Hamlet
> 
> 
> Dulwich Hamlet have signed former Wolves winger Andrew Jay Harris-Sealy. The National League South side have agreed a sell-on with the 22-year-old’s previous club Farnborough.
> ...


Just when we have a vaguely settled team and performances are on the up? I'd like to see us sign Vint longer term mind you, at 24 he can play a lot of football for us.


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## The new one (Dec 31, 2020)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> Just when we have a vaguely settled team and performances are on the up? I'd like to see us sign Vint longer term mind you, at 24 he can play a lot of football for us.


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## The new one (Dec 31, 2020)

Would be a good signing for us  looking good at the club. Let’s all hope for a great new year. For everyone team and most importantly to all the fans 👍


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## pinknblue (Dec 31, 2020)

Former Wolves winger signs for Dulwich Hamlet
					

Dulwich Hamlet have signed former Wolves winger Andrew Jay Harris-Sealy. The National League South side have agreed a sell-on with the 22-year-old’s previous club Farnborough.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk
				




“We’re looking to add another three or four to the changing room in the next week or two but we have to look at moving boys on or furloughing them.”

Good grief!!!


----------



## Nivag (Dec 31, 2020)

pinknblue said:


> “We’re looking to add another three or four to the changing room in the next week or two but we have to look at moving boys on or furloughing them.”
> 
> Good grief!!!


I'd wish they'd sign me and then stick me on Furlough, I could do with some money.


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## Bugpowder Dust (Dec 31, 2020)

Further to comments about the settled team and possible moving players on, I took a quick look at appearances over last 9 games:

Starting X1 - Used Sub - Unused Sub

Grainger 9 – 0 - 0
Barnes 9 - 0 - 0
Timlin 9 - 0 - 0
Taylor 9 - 0 - 0
Ming 9 - 0 - 0
Moore 8 - 1 - 0
Mills 7 - 2 - 0
McGregor 6 – 2 - 1
Allassani 6 - 3 - 0
Debrah 4 - 3 - 1
Sammut 4 - 0 - 5
Vint 5 - 0 - 0
Embalo 3 - 1 - 2
Hyde 2 - 6 - 1
Higgs 3 - 1 - 0
Blackman 2 - 0 - 0
Henry 1 - 2 - 2
Balarabe 1 - 1 - 1
Clayden 1 - 0 - 0
Barbosa 1 - 2 - 4
Agahatise 0 - 1 - 2
Masampu 0 - 1 - 0
White 0 - 0 - 1

Youth team cup subs:
Splatt 0 - 0 - 1
Thomas, K 0 - 0 - 1
Acheampong 0 - 0 - 1
Thomas, L 0 - 0 - 1

Did not feature:
Pardington
Ojo
David
Martin

Some of these have already left the club, but just from looking at the list in descending order you can see 9 players who are now pretty much out of the picture (ie Blackman through to White).

Really good to see a clear core of starting players emerging.


----------



## Pink Panther (Dec 31, 2020)

Bugpowder Dust said:


> Some of these have already left the club, but just from looking at the list in descending order you can see 9 players who are now pretty much out of the picture (ie Blackman through to White).


I assume Blackman is still injured as he started in two wins and went off injured in the second. I believe Barbosa and Henry were both out injured but have featured more recently, including a start for the former in the most recent match. We know Clayden and Masampu have gone, it looks like Balarabe and Aghatise have too, and White had just been loaned to Carshalton again when the lower league fixtures were suspended.


----------



## baleboy_93 (Dec 31, 2020)

Bugpowder Dust said:


> Further to comments about the settled team and possible moving players on, I took a quick look at appearances over last 9 games:
> 
> Starting X1 - Used Sub - Unused Sub
> 
> ...



Blackman is still at club, and will be for rest of season I believe, he was at Hampton on Monday.


----------



## pompeydunc (Jan 1, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> Former Wolves winger signs for Dulwich Hamlet
> 
> 
> Dulwich Hamlet have signed former Wolves winger Andrew Jay Harris-Sealy. The National League South side have agreed a sell-on with the 22-year-old’s previous club Farnborough.
> ...



Is it even legal to add to your workforce while furloughing staff doing the same role? I presume it must be, if being said publicly. This is a loophole that deserves shutting immediately by HMT, or whichever department is overseeing it.


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## Paula_G (Jan 1, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> Is it even legal to add to your workforce while furloughing staff doing the same role? I presume it must be, if being said publicly. This is a loophole that deserves shutting immediately by HMT, or whichever department is overseeing it.


Thought that there was a “cut off” date for furloughed employees so that only those employed before a certain date were actually eligible for it anyway? I know the initial cut off date was in March for the original furlough scheme then extended to late June but not sure whether that has changed for the last one which (I believe) cut the government contribution to 60% which presumably also increases the stress on club finances.


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## liamdhfc (Jan 1, 2021)

Just to confirm the club has not placed any player on furlough


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## pompeydunc (Jan 2, 2021)

Anyone know whether our home matches versus Maidstone and Slough will go ahead?  I guess that will depend on the last time the player with COVID in our squad last interacted closely with other members of the squad, and count ten days from that point (unless there are further cases discovered)....or for relevant contacts to have negative tests.


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## Paula_G (Jan 2, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> Anyone know whether our home matches versus Maidstone and Slough will go ahead?  I guess that will depend on the last time the player with COVID in our squad last interacted closely with other members of the squad, and count ten days from that point (unless there are further cases discovered)....or for relevant contacts to have negative tests.



I’d say it’s a safe (ish) bet that Maidstone on Tuesday is off given that the Tonbridge game  wasn’t notified by them as postponed until yesterday. Looks like Slough fits into that ten day window though of course (as you say) we don’t know when the Dulwich player or other staff member concerned returned their positive test. By the by that. All I can add is for speedy and uncomplicated recovery for the individual concerned...


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## AveryDave (Jan 2, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> Anyone know whether our home matches versus Maidstone and Slough will go ahead?  I guess that will depend on the last time the player with COVID in our squad last interacted closely with other members of the squad, and count ten days from that point (unless there are further cases discovered)....or for relevant contacts to have negative tests.


Best bet is to keep an eye on Maidstone and Slough's Twitter feeds, tend to find out more about what's going on at the club from the opposition these days.


----------



## AveryDave (Jan 2, 2021)

liamdhfc said:


> Just to confirm the club has not placed any player on furlough


Thank you for confirming on that liamdhfc, really appreciate you doing so on what is a sensitive subject.

The real position is obviously at odds with what Gavin is quoted as suggesting in the SLP article - so was he misquoted? Or didn't he understand how the club was administering the playing budget? Or have the club changed their position on wanting to use furlough to supplement player salaries?

Whatever, it seems to have generated some confusion at best if not some ill will towards the club for suggesting they're using public funds to pay players they don't want any more, which you've got to feel could all have been avoided.

And personally, it's further frustration that on one of the rare occasions the supporters get to hear from the manager, it's seemingly inaccurate.


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 3, 2021)

Just been reading how badly this virus has hit Havant & Waterlooville and sure many other clubs have similar tales to tell that the fans never hear How the pandemic has ripped through Havant & Waterlooville FC – but football still goes on ...


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 4, 2021)

The funding scandal rumbles on. (Article may be behind a paywall, I think it was one of a small number of free articles per month for me.)









						Investigation urged into distribution of Lottery money to National League clubs
					

The culture secretary has been urged to launch an investigation into alleged conflicts of interest over the distribution of millions of pounds of Lottery money




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




I'm not impressed by the remark that "most clubs aren't complaining". If an employer decided to cut the wages of a quarter of it staff and divide the money among the rest it's possible most people wouldn't complain about that, but it wouldn't mean it was acceptable or that no one had a legitimate grievance.


----------



## pompeydunc (Jan 4, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The funding scandal rumbles on. (Article may be behind a paywall, I think it was one of a small number of free articles per month for me.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you copy and paste it Pink Panther ?


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 4, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> Can you copy and paste it Pink Panther ?


The culture secretary has been urged to launch an investigation into alleged conflicts of interest over the distribution of millions of pounds of Lottery money to National League clubs.

The £10 million was a rescue package to help clubs affected by the Covid crisis and was announced by Oliver Dowden in November, with the understanding that it would be distributed according to clubs’ lost gate receipts.

Instead, the National League board decided its own distribution formula based on a flat rate which has left some clubs with hundreds of thousands of pounds less than they were expecting. After initial criticism, the National League commissioned David Bernstein, the former FA chairman, to lead an independent review of the financial distribution but his findings — which are understood to have echoed some criticisms — have not been shared with the clubs.

Duncan Hart, a London FA council member and member of the Dulwich Hamlet Supporters’ Trust, has now written to Dowden asking him to step in and ensure that the next three-month block of funding, worth £11 million, is distributed differently.
Hart says that five of the nine National League board members were from clubs that benefited significantly more from the package than they would have done if it had been split according to expected gate receipts.

The letter states that Notts County received £287,000 less than they would have received if the formula had been based on average attendances, while Boreham Wood were “overcompensated” by £170,000.
“At the very least there is a clear conflict of interest for a board comprised of a small selection of National League member clubs to be charged with deciding how funding is allocated to all member clubs,” Hart writes.





CHAIRMAN BRIAN BARWICK DID NOT RESPOND WHEN ASKED TO COMMENT

Andrew Graham, the vice-chairman of Hereford FC, said he backed the calls made in Hart’s letter.

“It’s unacceptable that this is £10 million of public money and we don’t even know what the terms of reference were for the distribution model,” he said. “We were led to believe the package would cover each club’s lost gate receipts but that failed to happen.

“We have since seen clubs which usually have smaller attendances poaching strikers from what used to be seen as the bigger clubs, it’s farcical.”

Bernstein sent an open letter to the National League chairman Brian Barwick, the former FA chief executive, before Christmas expressing his unhappiness at the failure to share his report with the clubs and noting that there had been no response to his concerns about conflicts of interest and poor governance. Bernstein told The Times: “We have had a very poor response to our report from the National League and it has not been circulated to the clubs, and nor has there been any sign of a change of governance. The model they came up with to distribute the money appeared extremely arbitrary. “I would hope the government will listen to this. The funding and distribution for the January to March money really needs to be dealt with more independently. When it comes to dealing with public money it needs to be allocated properly and with visibility.”
It is understood the government is considering its response to the complaints.
Barwick, who was appointed OBE in the new year honours, did not respond when contacted by The Times.

In the National League’s top division clubs were allocated £95,000 or £84,000, and £36,000 or £30,000 in the two regional divisions. It meant York City, with an average attendance of 2,700 in National League North, received £108,000 for October to December instead of £297,000 if allocated solely on gate receipts. Boreham Wood, with an average attendance of 724 in the National League, received £252,000 instead of £79,000.

Hart’s letter to Dowden states that Aldershot Town, Dagenham & Redbridge, Solihull Moors, Barnet and Dover Athletic all received substantially more money than if the cash had been distributed according to average usual attendances, and that those clubs all have representatives on the National League board. There is no suggestion of any wrongdoing on the part of any club.

Mark Ives, who took over as the National League’s interim general manager on January 1, said that Bernstein’s report would be shared with the clubs “sooner rather than later”.

“The vast majority of clubs have not complained about the distribution,” he said.
Ives added that the funding distribution model chosen by the board had not been put together by any club representative and took into account clubs would have some similar fixed costs such as pitch maintenance and utility bills.


----------



## pompeydunc (Jan 4, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The culture secretary has been urged to launch an investigation into alleged conflicts of interest over the distribution of millions of pounds of Lottery money to National League clubs.
> 
> The £10 million was a rescue package to help clubs affected by the Covid crisis and was announced by Oliver Dowden in November, with the understanding that it would be distributed according to clubs’ lost gate receipts.
> 
> ...



I understand that Hart chap had the letter he sent to DCMS leaked (the cc list included FA, London FA, Camelot, local MPs and David Bernstein)...


----------



## Latahs (Jan 4, 2021)

Mark Ives blotting his copy book a little too early.


----------



## pompeydunc (Jan 4, 2021)

Latahs said:


> Mark Ives blotting his copy book a little too early.



He's between a rock and a hard place, as CEO he answers to the Board and Chair of the National League!  He has a good reputation from FA Discipline days.


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 4, 2021)

Latahs said:


> Mark Ives blotting his copy book a little too early.


I accept that he's come late to the table and bears no responsibility for the division of funds, but he refers to fixed costs that are similar for most clubs being taken into account. That's not what clubs were led to believe in the first place, we were told the funding was to compensate for lost gate receipts. The Hungerfords and the Concords and the Borehamwood will always have to find the money for pitch maintenance and utility bills, the same as the Maidstone's or Notts County or ourselves. (In fact in Borehamwood's case it's probably subsidised by Arsenal.)


----------



## YTC (Jan 4, 2021)

Update on where we are with COVID right now: CLUB STATEMENT - COVID POSTPONEMENTS

Unsure if football will be going ahead after 8pm tonight, but if it does our next scheduled game is Billericay a week Saturday.


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 4, 2021)

View attachment 247109View attachment 247109


YTC said:


> Update on where we are with COVID right now: CLUB STATEMENT - COVID POSTPONEMENTS
> 
> Unsure if football will be going ahead after 8pm tonight, but if it does our next scheduled game is Billericay a week Saturday.


Not very likely by the looks of it... No team games unless the club has its own bubble. Premiership clubs seems to be the only level at which that is feasible.


----------



## liamdhfc (Jan 5, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> Thank you for confirming on that liamdhfc, really appreciate you doing so on what is a sensitive subject.
> 
> The real position is obviously at odds with what Gavin is quoted as suggesting in the SLP article - so was he misquoted? Or didn't he understand how the club was administering the playing budget? Or have the club changed their position on wanting to use furlough to supplement player salaries?
> 
> ...



I'm surprised a manager commented on the club's business model off the pitch. I believe there were discussions about furlough with regard to players where step 3 clubs had agreed to take them on loan already but then pulled out when their season was suspended. However, that has not happened.
All financial decisions are made by the board with the Chairman having the final say. His financial management is second to none and the club is in no danger whilst the current board is in place.

I assure you that the club operates entirely legally and does nothing that could be seen as evading statutory requirements. 

In respect of other clubs being quicker with information, some of that has been released before confirmed as agreed by the League of with our opponents.


----------



## T Corcoran (Jan 8, 2021)

Not sure if this effects us but it looks like Step 3 and 4 could be null and void


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## Pink Panther (Jan 8, 2021)

T Corcoran said:


> Not sure if this effects us but it looks like Step 3 and 4 could be null and void



It doesn't affect us, it only affects the leagues below ours. The same thing happened last year, leagues below were null and void while ours was decided by points per game and play-offs although once again there would be no relegation from our division. (Of course there haven't been as many matches played this time, not enough to decide promotion, so there must be a possibility that our season will be null and void but that will require a separate decision by the National League and/or FA.)


----------



## pinknblue (Jan 10, 2021)

If the National League ensured that all clubs played each other once - with an equal number of home and away games before anyone played the return game - we'd get a reasonable 1/2 season that _might _be sufficient to decide promotion and relegation.


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## scousedom (Jan 10, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> If the National League ensured that all clubs played each other once - with an equal number of home and away games before anyone played the return game - we'd get a reasonable 1/2 season that _might _be sufficient to decide promotion and relegation.





scousedom said:


> Hopefully the League will use the time to agree a protocol for how to establish League positions in the event of future curtailed seasons so you don't get weeks and months of uncertainty, brinkmanship, media leaks etc. You can kind of understand them not having a plan in place last year (as no other league in the world seemed to), but to start a new season without agreeing a process would be unforgiveable.
> As I said above, I'd favour a system where for a 42 game season you might say: less than 10 games played, void it: 10-20 played get to 21 and call it; 21-31 played call it as at 21; 31+ played complete it. And along with that, change the scheduling so you play everyone once in the first half and second half of the season.



I can’t believe this wasn’t done. It was so obvious this season would be affected and yet the League  started the season with no stated plan for how to end it / decide it when it was interrupted. It’s understandable that last year was decided on the hop, but for it to happen this year is mind-numbingly stupid.


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 10, 2021)

scousedom said:


> I can’t believe this wasn’t done. It was so obvious this season would be affected and yet the League  started the season with no stated plan for how to end it / decide it when it was interrupted. It’s understandable that last year was decided on the hop, but for it to happen this year is mind-numbingly stupid.


The way the National League has been managed during the last ten months has been embarrassing.


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 14, 2021)

It would appear that a letter has gone out to the National League clubs in relation to the initial distribution of funding to them if this article is correct. _“The National League have now hit back, saying the panel recommended increased funding to 24 clubs in December with 30 clubs receiving less than they had done in the previous two months.
In 10 cases, it would have seen distribution going from an expected £84,000 down to £12,000. ‘This variation, at such a late stage, was simply not practical or legally possible,’ said Ives in his letter to clubs.”_
Curiously not seen any official from anywhere on this yet... Havant & Waterlooville admit uncertainty over next financial aid package is ‘very worrying’


----------



## Al Cunningham (Jan 15, 2021)

I see we still have 16 Home league games to fit in this season. That is usually the case in early September.


----------



## pompeydunc (Jan 16, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> It would appear that a letter has gone out to the National League clubs in relation to the initial distribution of funding to them if this article is correct. _“The National League have now hit back, saying the panel recommended increased funding to 24 clubs in December with 30 clubs receiving less than they had done in the previous two months.
> In 10 cases, it would have seen distribution going from an expected £84,000 down to £12,000. ‘This variation, at such a late stage, was simply not practical or legally possible,’ said Ives in his letter to clubs.”_
> Curiously not seen any official from anywhere on this yet... Havant & Waterlooville admit uncertainty over next financial aid package is ‘very worrying’



So change nothing and perpetuate something that it woefully inadequate. Should have made at least some amendments, but instead did nothing, which seems to be the NL's default mode.

Camelot are refusing to do anything about it as well.


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 16, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> It would appear that a letter has gone out to the National League clubs in relation to the initial distribution of funding to them if this article is correct. _“The National League have now hit back, saying the panel recommended increased funding to 24 clubs in December with 30 clubs receiving less than they had done in the previous two months.
> In 10 cases, it would have seen distribution going from an expected £84,000 down to £12,000. ‘This variation, at such a late stage, was simply not practical or legally possible,’ said Ives in his letter to clubs.”_
> Curiously not seen any official from anywhere on this yet... Havant & Waterlooville admit uncertainty over next financial aid package is ‘very worrying’


The argument now seems to be that we can't change the division of funds because those clubs who received a disproportionately large grant the first time will be expecting another one of the same size. What about those clubs who were shafted the first time? We weren't at a "late stage" when the matter was raised by the group of clubs who feel it was done wrongly, and anyone with any common sense will have anticipated that any further funds should be distributed differently the second time.


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## Paula_G (Jan 16, 2021)

I’m seeing this very much as the turkeys aren’t going to vote for Christmas. The voting power of the clubs getting less under the “gate distribution” system presumably outweighing that of those clubs who have now received less that they were led to believe they were going to get. Not that I’d expect the league board to admit that. Then again they left themselves wide open for this using the gate receipts model. If they felt the fixed cost model was the most equitable situation then why didn’t they just say that rather than go through all the rigmarole of the Bernstein Inquiry then compound that by dillydallying with the findings? 🤷‍♀️


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## StephenMac (Jan 18, 2021)

Ollie Bayliss reporting that the next and overdue money will be in the form of loans rather than grants. No idea if that decision is in any way a result of the dodginess of the National League distribution of the lottery money.


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## Nivag (Jan 18, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Ollie Bayliss reporting that the next and overdue money will be in the form of loans rather than grants. No idea if that decision is in any way a result of the dodginess of the National League distribution of the lottery money.


I wonder who owns the loan company?


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## Pink Panther (Jan 18, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Ollie Bayliss reporting that the next and overdue money will be in the form of loans rather than grants. No idea if that decision is in any way a result of the dodginess of the National League distribution of the lottery money.


It's also been reported that the National League is "encouraging" member clubs to ask their local MP to lobby the Government to change the loans to grants. The League Management Committee has created this mess with its hopeless leadership and now the clubs are being asked to deal with the consequences. I trust those responsible for starting the season behind closed doors, then distributing the lottery funding for clubs in a patently unfair manner, will finally be resigning after this latest fiasco. Or maybe they'll all get an OBE like the League Chairman?


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Jan 19, 2021)

If loans, on what terms?


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Jan 19, 2021)

And who doesn't get a deal written down first, basic rule of any trade union rep


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## PartisanDulwich (Jan 19, 2021)

Either they resign or maybe time to explore setting up a new League 
chaos does provide opportunities
dreamland probably ...but surely
Things have to change


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## Paula_G (Jan 19, 2021)

There’s going to be a lot of resignations by the looks of it... I’ve been trying to find out how the so-called Winter Sports Survival Package exactly operates..  Supposedly it’s being administered by Sport England, rather than through the National Lottery, with a 7 person board (quango?) processing applications from a number of individual clubs & organisations across a range of sports including motor racing, badminton, rugby union, horse racing, women's football, rugby league, tennis, netball, basketball, ice hockey, badminton and greyhound racing as well as the National League & Steps 3-6 below. I can’t begin to imagine how much paperwork will be generated! Nowhere have I seen any terms for the loans beyond Dowlen’s rather vague “low interest” which puts me in mind of William Hootkins’ “top men” in its lack of clarity. No duration, no security, no nothing... Apparently the Trident Leagues & below are still waiting from last year to hear how and how much they might be eligible to apply for. Non-league football's £14m rescue package - many questions remain from lockdown-hit clubs


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## StephenMac (Jan 19, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> There’s going to be a lot of resignations by the looks of it... I’ve been trying to find out how the so-called Winter Sports Survival Package exactly operates..  Supposedly it’s being administered by Sport England, rather than through the National Lottery, with a 7 person board (quango?) processing applications from a number of individual clubs & organisations across a range of sports including motor racing, badminton, rugby union, horse racing, women's football, rugby league, tennis, netball, basketball, ice hockey, badminton and greyhound racing as well as the National League & Steps 3-6 below. I can’t begin to imagine how much paperwork will be generated! Nowhere have I seen any terms for the loans beyond Dowlen’s rather vague “low interest” which puts me in mind of William Hootkins’ “top men” in its lack of clarity. No duration, no security, no nothing... Apparently the Trident Leagues & below are still waiting from last year to hear how and how much they might be eligible to apply for. Non-league football's £14m rescue package - many questions remain from lockdown-hit clubs


The only bit I like of this post is the exemplary deployment of a Raiders of the Lost Ark reference.


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## Nivag (Jan 19, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> The only bit I like of this post is the exemplary deployment of a Raiders of the Lost Ark reference.


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## Roger D (Jan 20, 2021)

Ollie Bayliss is reporting the clubs have been offered three routes forward.

Long term, low interest loans with no immediate repayments.

The league take out a loan. They make grants to the clubs and reclaim the money by reducing central funding payments.

Suspending the season


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## Bugpowder Dust (Jan 20, 2021)

Less than 64 hours until we are supposed to be kicking off v Dartford. 

Gotta feel for everyone at the club right now not knowing if they need to get a game on or not.


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## Roger D (Jan 20, 2021)

The league have said they expect the next two Saturdays to play irrespective of which way clubs respond

Clubs must report back tonight, the league meet on Friday apparently.


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## Pink Panther (Jan 21, 2021)

Video evidence has emerged of the National League Management Committee composing a letter to the DCMS asking for further funding:


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## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

Darlington have gone public on opposing playing on unless a grant is provided.









						Winter Survival Package -- Darlington FC statement - News
					

Winter Survival Package -- Darlington FC statement - News



					darlingtonfc.co.uk


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## Paula_G (Jan 21, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Darlington have gone public on opposing playing on unless a grant is provided.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Likewise Tonbridge Angels...


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## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

Concord have gone a step further and informed the league they will cease playing until they receive clarity around financing generally and for Covid testing.

The league have previously stated they expect fixtures to be fulfilled for the next two weekends.

Getting interesting... Might not be a great look disciplining a club who are refusing to play as they cannot test their players in the current Covid climate


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## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

The Telford statement is worth a look as it sets out some of the terms attached to the loan. They want a suspension of up to three weeks and then null and void if the financial position hasn't changed.









						Club Statement: - AFC Telford United
					

AFC Telford United would like to provide supporters with the following statement regarding the 2020/21 National League season. During Wednesday’s meeting, the National League confirmed to its members clubs the Government’s Winter Survival Package would be in the forms of loans not grants. The...




					www.telfordunited.com


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## Pink Panther (Jan 21, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Concord have gone a step further and informed the league they will cease playing until they receive clarity around financing generally and for Covid testing.
> 
> The league have previously stated they expect fixtures to be fulfilled for the next two weekends.


Apparently Havant and Slough have followed Concord and informed the League they will not be fulfilling further fixtures until the matter is resolved. Looking back to the very first post on this thread, this is essentially what our club did immediately before the National League suspended last season. 

It seems that Chester, Eastbourne and Hemel have expressed a preference for the National League grant option. No one seems to favour the direct loan option so far.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 21, 2021)

I don't know what the terms of the loans are but taking on additional debt at a time of total financial uncertainty seems like a really bad idea doesn't it. If clubs are refusing to play I don't doubt it's because their financial circumstances are pretty dire - a rather pointless season with no fans isn't worth potentially pushing clubs to the wall for IMO.


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## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

The terms of the first option loan are in the Telford statement. From memory 2% over ten years with no repayment for the first two years.

Most of the teams objecting to loans to date are citing the risk to the club of taking on this sort of debt.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 21, 2021)

Roger D said:


> The terms of the first option loan are in the Telford statement. From memory 2% over ten years with no repayment for the first two years.
> 
> Most of the teams objecting to loans to date are citing the risk to the club of taking on this sort of debt.



Thanks.

Not surprised clubs are objecting tbh - they tend to live on a financial knife-edge anyway I think so substantial extra loans are an existential threat even if the terms are fairly reasonable which they sound to be.


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## StephenMac (Jan 21, 2021)

All seems to be unravelling quite spectacularly. I think it's perfectly sound for Concord, Havant and Slough to be refusing to play on financial grounds, and I'd be supportive if we do the same, but I find it a bit weird that all three have suddenly started throwing player safety/lack of testing into the mix. It's a very reasonable point in itself but presumably they hadn't been spending the initial grant money on testing anyway?

For what it's worth (precisely nothing) I'm all for knocking the whole ridiculous season on the head.


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## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

Slough issued a statement saying they were concerned about player safety and thought the season should be suspended a few weeks ago to be fair to them. 

It may have been when Slough was put on tier 4 and the rest of Berkshire into tier 2.


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 21, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> For what it's worth (precisely nothing) I'm all for knocking the whole ridiculous season on the head.


I'm not sure what the point of playing on at this level is, we can't do bubbles like the professional clubs so we are putting lives at risk for what?


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## Paula_G (Jan 21, 2021)

Believe Uork


sleaterkinney said:


> I'm not sure what the point of playing on at this level is, we can't do bubbles like the professional clubs so we are putting lives at risk for what?


If I recall rightly at the start of this latest “Lockdown” one journalist said that only elite sports with testing bubbles would be allowed to continue. Given that the EFL clubs were already talking about shutting down until such measures were put in place only the Premier League clubs could reasonably be considered as being in “bubbles” and even the current positives coming out of trips to Dubai have given the lie to that. The increased number of positives among National League clubs over Christmas should really have been the warning sign not the money...


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## The new one (Jan 21, 2021)

Is game off Saturday.


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## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

I suspect the club will confirm what they are doing once they hear the results of tomorrow's League Management Board meeting.


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## Bugpowder Dust (Jan 21, 2021)

If game goes ahead, and we beat Dartford who are top of the league, then we can claim to be the best in the league when the season gets suspended on Monday...


----------



## Nivag (Jan 21, 2021)

The new one said:


> Is game off Saturday.


As of this moment, no.


----------



## Roger D (Jan 21, 2021)

Twelve northern division clubs have said they won't play beyond January 29th if funding isn't sorted and Covid testing introduced. They have also asked for am immediate suspension whilst this is sorted.


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## Pink Panther (Jan 21, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> All seems to be unravelling quite spectacularly. I think it's perfectly sound for Concord, Havant and Slough to be refusing to play on financial grounds, and I'd be supportive if we do the same, but I find it a bit weird that all three have suddenly started throwing player safety/lack of testing into the mix. It's a very reasonable point in itself but presumably they hadn't been spending the initial grant money on testing anyway?
> 
> For what it's worth (precisely nothing) I'm all for knocking the whole ridiculous season on the head.


Slough have primarily cited the financial stupidity of making their most expensive away journey of the season on Saturday, as well as playing on for a further week, when there's a good chance the results will be void anyway. 

The National League has now ordered them to travel to Eastbourne on Saturday, although it only needs one of their players to report virus symptoms on the morning of the match and presumably it'll have to be called off anyway the same as our game on Tuesday.









						National League crisis - Slough say they don't want to travel to Eastbourne Borough - but league says: You have to
					

The National League crisis has taken a new twist - with Eastbourne Borough's opponents on Saturday, Slough Town, being told by the National League they must fulfil the fixture - even though they don't want to.




					www.eastbourneherald.co.uk


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## StephenMac (Jan 21, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Slough have primarily cited the financial stupidity of making their most expensive away journey of the season on Saturday, as well as playing on for a further week, when there's a good chance the results will be void anyway.
> 
> The National League has now ordered them to travel to Eastbourne on Saturday, although it only needs one of their players to report virus symptoms on the morning of the match and presumably it'll have to be called off anyway the same as our game on Tuesday.
> 
> ...


So we have potential for a comedy stand-off if the league dig in, where clubs unwilling to play just report that someone has symptoms every match day until somebody gives in. Probably the ending the season deserves.


----------



## Dodger (Jan 21, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> So we have potential for a comedy stand-off if the league dig in, where clubs unwilling to play just report that someone has symptoms every match day until somebody gives in. Probably the ending the season deserves.



That would be amazing I’d actually pay to see that!


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 22, 2021)

Concord are refusing to play any matches but with Havant & Waterlooville imposing a ten day self isolation break on Health & Safety grounds means Saturday’s game at Concord between the two is currently “off”. The announcement makes for pretty sobering viewing. What action the League is going to take there will be very interesting indeed..


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 22, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> So we have potential for a comedy stand-off if the league dig in, where clubs unwilling to play just report that someone has symptoms every match day until somebody gives in. Probably the ending the season deserves.


Exactly what Havant have done...


----------



## StephenMac (Jan 22, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Exactly what Havant have done...


Yep. I have no great love for Havant but good for them.


----------



## Nivag (Jan 22, 2021)

Two week suspension with immediate effect








						National League Statement | Two-Week Suspension to North and South Season - The Vanarama National League
					

A statement from The National League Board.




					www.thenationalleague.org.uk


----------



## NPDHFC (Jan 22, 2021)

Absolute Circus.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 22, 2021)

No way it's starting up again in a fortnight is there? More than likely that's the end of the season tbh.


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## Roger D (Jan 22, 2021)

It's probably no coincidence this gives them until the first game in February to try and sort this mess out. 

I can't see the majority of North and South clubs wanting to trigger February's wages unless a grant mysteriously appears from somewhere. Without that, the season seems  done.

Roll on the League AGM. Should be a nice friendly meeting this year. Will the clubs look to throw out the Management Board?


----------



## EDC (Jan 22, 2021)

With any luck yes, with a massive kick up the arse.


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## Paula_G (Jan 22, 2021)

The voting structure of the National League would probably make it very difficult to throw out the Management Board. Am struggling to find the Articles of Association which presumably state the criteria for the composition of the Management Board but the voting system normally is heavily weighed against the North & South clubs. All 24 teams in the *National League* get one *vote* each while teams in the North division share four *votes* as do those in the South (32 *votes* in total). In the current case any proposal must get a total of 17 *votes* to pass. Given that the bulk of the NL clubs still finished up better off under the grant scheme I’m sceptical that dissatisfied clubs could gather enough support to clean out the current board.


----------



## pompeydunc (Jan 23, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> The voting structure of the National League would probably make it very difficult to throw out the Management Board. Am struggling to find the Articles of Association which presumably state the criteria for the composition of the Management Board but the voting system normally is heavily weighed against the North & South clubs. All 24 teams in the *National League* get one *vote* each while teams in the North division share four *votes* as do those in the South (32 *votes* in total). In the current case any proposal must get a total of 17 *votes* to pass. Given that the bulk of the NL clubs still finished up better off under the grant scheme I’m sceptical that dissatisfied clubs could gather enough support to clean out the current board.



Zero transparency on NL website on governance. Pretty shocking in this day and age. The Board members are in the handbook that is shared with clubs, but not put this proactively on the website is poor....and as you say the Articles can't be found publicly that I can see. The league rules are there, but not how the league itself is run.


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## Pink Panther (Jan 23, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> Zero transparency on NL website on governance. Pretty shocking in this day and age. *The Board members are in the handbook that is shared with clubs*, but not put this proactively on the website is poor....and as you say the Articles can't be found publicly that I can see. The league rules are there, but not how the league itself is run.


Is anyone able to list the board members and the  clubs they represent? I assume the League Handbook is not a private and confidential document and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested to know.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Jan 23, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Is anyone able to list the board members and the  clubs they represent? I assume the League Handbook is not a private and confidential document and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested to know.


Could someone do an FOI request to the FA?


----------



## Al Crane (Jan 23, 2021)

Someone has already uncovered this on Twitter previously do it shouldn’t be difficult to establish.

off the top of my head...I think I recall something like:

Jim Parmenter (Dover)
Jack Pearce (Bognor)
Yeovil chair
Aldershot chair
And 5 or 6 others..


----------



## Roger D (Jan 23, 2021)

The Barnet owner and someone from Hampton too from memory.


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 23, 2021)

Al Crane said:


> Someone has already uncovered this on Twitter previously do it shouldn’t be difficult to establish.
> 
> off the top of my head...I think I recall something like:
> 
> ...


The signatories to the letter to the NLP in regards to the furore over the distribution of DCMS grant funds were:
Anthony Kleanthous (Barnet)
Jim Parmenter (Dover)
Mike Coulson (ex-Gateshead)
Richard Parsons (Hampton & Richmond)
Shahid Azeem (Aldershot)
Stephen Thompson (Dagenham)
Timothy Murphy (Solihull Moors)
Add to those:
Chairman, Brian Barwick
Vice-Chairman, Jack Pearce (Bognor Regis)
Chief Executive Officer, Michael Tattersall (To be replaced)
Can’t find any club affiliation for Barwick & Tattersall who I guess are career sports administrators.


----------



## pinknblue (Jan 23, 2021)

Al Crane said:


> Someone has already uncovered this on Twitter previously do it shouldn’t be difficult to establish.
> 
> off the top of my head...I think I recall something like:
> 
> ...



How can someone from Bognor be on the board, as they're not in the National League any more? Surely they have to resign if their club goes out of the league?


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 23, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> How can someone from Bognor be on the board, as they're not in the National League any more? Surely they have to resign if their club goes out of the league?


Jack Pearce is vice-Chairman which I would presume is an honorary position though I’m guessing (lack of transparency again) it still has voting rights much as the likes of Jack & Primo would have had in the Dulwich Hamlet committee days...


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 23, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Jack Pearce is vice-Chairman which I would presume is an honorary position though I’m guessing (lack of transparency again) it still has voting rights much as the likes of Jack & Primo would have had in the Dulwich Hamlet committee days...


Jack Pearce’s career biography from the FA website rather brings to mind that of a defrocked Tory cabinet minister:
_“Jack was appointed onto the FA Board in 2015, having first been appointed as a divisional representative on the FA Council in 2001 and is a vice-chair of The FA. Jack serves on the National Game Board, Remuneration Committee, Judicial Panel, National Game Finance Committee and Alliance Committee, the latter of which he chairs. Jack was formerly a player and manager of Bognor Regis Town and continues to serve the club as its general manager and vice-chairman. Jack is a board member of the National League and a council member of Sussex County FA as well as being a trustee of the Football Foundation.”_


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## Paula_G (Jan 23, 2021)

Obviously now that the league is suspended clubs will presumably be in a position to look at possibly considering furloughing players. Intrigued to whether the FA &/or the National League has prepared any advice for clubs as I believe the PFA advised their members not to accept furlough. There is also the question of “breach of contract” which might open up a can of worms in regards to “free transfers” etc. Non-contract players? Well I guess they just don’t get anything?


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 23, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Can’t find any club affiliation for Barwick & Tattersall who I guess are career sports administrators.


Barwick had senior roles with the FA and RFL in the past, so I guess he's genuinely neutral. I'm sure someone told me recently that Tattersall lives in the Hampton area and is a regular attender at their home games. .


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## pompeydunc (Jan 24, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Is anyone able to list the board members and the  clubs they represent? I assume the League Handbook is not a private and confidential document and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested to know.



I added the list of clubs that have representatives on the NL Board to the spreadsheet. When purely based on average attendances from 19/20, the club's they represent were over compensated by almost £0.5m.









						Annex A - NL subsidy (actual subsidy vs average attendance model).xlsx
					

Microsoft Excel Workbook



					1drv.ms


----------



## Pink Panther (Jan 24, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> I added the list of clubs that have representatives on the NL Board to the spreadsheet. When purely based on average attendances from 19/20, the club's they represent were over compensated by almost £0.5m.


And Maidstone and ourselves alone, the two biggest losers in the South Division, were under compensated by almost half that figure.


----------



## Paula_G (Jan 24, 2021)

Based on those figures 16 NL clubs were overcompensated where 7 were under-compensated. In the NLN the majority of clubs appear to be under-compensated while the reverse is true of the NLS because of the larger number of 1000+ gates in the better supported North due I guess to larger groups of travellers. I can see the North’s four votes going against the board but with Dorking Wanderers the only club “profiting” under this system to speak out against the board I feel it will be difficult to get those fours votes in any attempt to oust the board. That is of course based on an assumption that these are allocated on a majority decision by NLN/NLS clubs. Again (no surprise!) no information on that anywhere...


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## Roger D (Jan 24, 2021)

At least two Freedom of Information requests have gone in asking for details of all relevant meetings/communications between DCMS/FA/National League to see if anything is recorded about the basis for any payments beyond December 2020.

Watch this space as they say.


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## PartisanDulwich (Jan 25, 2021)

Don't think FOI cover non public bodies - unfortunately


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## Pink Panther (Jan 25, 2021)

Roger D said:


> At least two Freedom of Information requests have gone in asking for details of all relevant meetings/communications between DCMS/FA/National League to see if anything is recorded about the basis for any payments beyond December 2020.
> 
> Watch this space as they say.


This press release on the official government website was widely reported two months ago. The £11m for the National League is there but it's a bit ambivalent, because an earlier paragraph referring to the overall figure of £300m for all sports says the funding will be "largely comprised of loans":









						Government announces £300 million Sport Winter Survival Package to help spectator sports in England
					

Major spectator sports in England will receive a combined £300 million cash injection to protect their immediate futures over the winter period




					www.gov.uk
				




Frankly though, if I was negotiating to secure an eight figure sum of funding on behalf of an organisation representing 66 small and medium sized enterprises, I think I'd want to have at least an email of confirmation before I sat back and waited two months until the funding was actually needed.

I'm sure it was also reported back in October, when the original £10m grant was negotiated, that the money was coming from the National Lottery as the government could not award a direct grant of this nature, only a loan.

I'm not a supporter of this government by a long chalk but on the face of it they appear to have been fairly straight with us on this. Yet again I'll say I think it was a big mistake to begin the season behind closed doors in the first place. I don't feel it's achieved anything worthwhile, other than allowing a few hundred jobbing footballers to sign new contracts and get paid for an extra season, and it may well have caused lasting damage to some clubs.


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## Roger D (Jan 25, 2021)

DCMS is public so it will have gone to them. I suspect it will cover minutes of meetings they own, letters sent by them etc.

It may well be redacted to within an inch of its life to remove names.

Edited to say the FoI requests have not yet been accepted and may be rejected if DCMS believe they will take too long to answer


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## Paula_G (Jan 25, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> This press release on the official government website was widely reported two months ago. The £11m for the National League is there but it's a bit ambivalent, because an earlier paragraph referring to the overall figure of £300m for all sports says the funding will be "largely comprised of loans":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally with this current lot in charge I would have asked for confirmation signed in blood with a couple of elderly relatives as hostages until the money arrived...


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## bkbk (Jan 25, 2021)

They've proven not to care about the elderly


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## Pink Panther (Jan 25, 2021)

Article from The Times:









						Fighting for survival is the new normal in non-League
					

Funding disputes, quarrels with government, Covid-19 fears, league suspensions — is another National League campaign about to fall victim to the pandemic? “I th




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




_Funding disputes, quarrels with government, Covid-19 fears, league suspensions — is another National League campaign about to fall victim to the pandemic? “I think we’re looking at the collapse of the National League season, and with that, I fear that there are some clubs who won’t make it through the summer,” Steve Thompson, the Dagenham & Redbridge managing director, says. So how on earth did it come to this?
On Saturday the National League North and South fixture lists — Step Two of non-League football — were a sea of postponements, just 24 hours after the divisions had been halted for two weeks so funding and coronavirus testing concerns can be addressed. The National League, at Step One, elected to play on for now but its future is also in doubt if the government does not change its stance.
Back in October, you may recall, the National League only agreed to kick off its season because of a £10 million grant, brokered by the government and secured through the National Lottery promotional fund, to cover lost revenue over the first three months of the season.
Clubs say they were led to believe that grants would continue for as long as supporters were denied access to stadiums. In November, Mike Tattersall and Mark Bullingham, the chief executives of the National League and FA respectively, left a meeting with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport (DCMS) with the same impression.
Now, however, the DCMS refute that funding was “promised as all grants”, and have offered £11 million of low-interest loans instead. “The majority of clubs across all three divisions indicated that they didn’t want the league to mortgage its future, which would be a millstone round our neck for the next 20 years, to finish the season,” Thompson, who is also a National League board member, says.

By Thursday, meanwhile, a number of clubs, including Havant & Waterlooville, had already taken the decision not to play their upcoming fixtures until routine testing had been implemented in line with other ‘elite’ leagues. The Havant kit man, Richie Pope, spent eight days in intensive care with coronavirus before Christmas. Their chairman, Derek Pope, and his wife, Sue, were both seriously ill. The father of their winger Roarie Deacon died.
Fixtures are piling up and there are genuine fears. Darlington’s players and staff travelled 700 miles on one coach to play Weymouth in the FA Trophy nine days ago. On Tuesday night, the floodlights failed midway through Kettering Town’s FA Trophy tie against Leamington. After a two-hour wait in the cold, or in cramped facilities, the FA insisted that the tie be completed on the night and the game finished at 11.22pm.
All levels below the National League have been suspended since November, where another season looks likely to be lost to the pandemic. If the National League follows suit, however, the £10 million National Lottery grant may as well have been poured “down the drain”, as Marc White, the Dorking Wanderers chairman/manager, says. And as White suggests, the cost to the taxpayer of furloughing staff would exceed the cost of a grant by several million pounds.
King’s Lynn chairman, Stephen Cleeve, told The Non-League Paper: “Let’s just say this was a limited company, and I said it would cost £17 million to do this, or £11 million to do that, which would you rather do? You’d pay the £11 million,” he said. “What the DCMS say is, ‘We’ve got our budget and our budget is more important than the greater good.’ That’s wrong. They just look at their own little budgets. It needs someone at ministerial level to look at it.”

Football’s governing bodies, however, do not come out of this mess smelling of roses either. The distribution of the first three months of grant money, which ranged from £30,000 to £95,000 per club per month, was met with a wave of protests, with some clubs arguing that their losses were not covered, and others making substantially more than expected.
Tattersall resigned from the National League in December. There were calls for the chairman, Brian Barwick, to follow suit. Publication of an independent review into the saga, led by David Bernstein, the former FA chairman, was delayed and pointed to conflicts of interest. And now this ambiguity between grants and loans. “I just can’t believe that, when you’re talking about ten million quid, no minutes [of the meeting] were taken,” Jason McGill, the York City chairman, says.
So what to make of it all? The pyramid, woven between cities, towns and villages across the country, is a treasure. But in non-League it is also a vast, labyrinthine and disparate landscape. For most this is about survival.
“Unless some money, in the form of a grant, materialises, I don’t believe there will be the appetite in our league, or the National League South, to play on,” McGill says. And at Step One there may well be a split. “What if six or seven clubs say they can’t afford to carry on?” Thompson says. “Do you expunge their records, and ask the rest to continue? Or do you run them into the ground?”
In the coming week, clubs will be consulted about whether or not the season can continue and they are urging supporters to lobby their MPs to push for a government rethink. “The government have performed enough U-turns this last ten months. We want them to make one more — which is actually going to save them money,” Thompson says.
“This is my 40th year involved in the running of Dagenham & Redbridge. I’m passionate about my club, and I’m passionate about non-League football. We started off with 66 community clubs. We intend to finish with 66 clubs.”_


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## Roger D (Jan 27, 2021)

What a mess. The BBC believe there was no reference to either grants or loans post December in the relevant documentatiom and everyone seems to have read it how they wanted.









						National League still to decide on vote - BBC Sport
					

National League clubs and officials are still to decide on whether to proceed with the 2020-21 season.




					www.bbc.com


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## Roger D (Jan 27, 2021)

The league have written to all North and South clubs confirming the league restarts on 6/2.

Stand by for open warfare.


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## Pink Panther (Jan 27, 2021)

Roger D said:


> The league have written to all North and South clubs confirming the league restarts on 6/2.
> 
> Stand by for open warfare.


Presumably this means they've secured a multi-million pound grant to cover the cost of completing the season?


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## Roger D (Jan 28, 2021)

U turn incoming?


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## Roger D (Jan 28, 2021)

Dulwich are one of 16 North and South teams to sign a statement saying they insist the season ends on or before 5/2 if fair and equitable funding isn't found.


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## YTC (Jan 31, 2021)

Statement from Club and Trust board on current situation

Link here and attached below - Dulwich Hamlet Football Club and Dulwich Hamlet Supporters’ Trust   Statement to fans, supporters and stakeholders   January 31, 2021


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## editor (Jan 31, 2021)

Text  version here: 








						Dulwich Hamlet, coronavirus and the chaotic leadership from the National League – club statement
					

Today, an exasperated Dulwich Hamlet Football Club – along with the Dulwich Hamlet Supporters’ Trust – have issued a statement to fans, supporters and stakeholders expressing thei…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## TonyWalt (Jan 31, 2021)

It’s a no brainer really. The season is over. 
So many businesses will be having to start up again from scratch once it is safe to do so, non league football included. Potentially racking up huge depts, putting players, staff and their families at risk, just to complete the season, when no fans have been able to attend seems unnecessarily and risks all clubs’ futures.


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## StephenMac (Jan 31, 2021)

Genuinely baffled as to why so many clubs are keen to carry on in these circumstances. Having a so far civilised debate about it with the chairmen of Hungerford and Eastbourne. Dream lockdown Sunday.


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## Pink Panther (Jan 31, 2021)

Whilst the tone of our club's statement may be slanted to reflect the club's stance, the comments regarding the National League's handling of the whole crisis are extremely damning unless categorically incorrect, which I doubt.

They pushed everyone to start the season amid great uncertainty. They were deceitful about the funding they secured, leading clubs to believe there were up to 6 months of *grants* available when the second half of it turned out to be *loans*. Then they ignored the Sports Minister's directive to distribute funds according to past matchday gate receipts in favour of their own simplistic flat fee system, with an arbitrary 20% bonus for a handful of better supported clubs including ourselves. Why exactly did they do this after requiring clubs to go to the trouble of submitting the necessary data to implement the government's recommendation? Who exactly decided to do this and why?


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## Pink Panther (Jan 31, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Genuinely baffled as to why so many clubs are keen to carry on in these circumstances. Having a so far civilised debate about it with the chairmen of Hungerford and Eastbourne. Dream lockdown Sunday.


I can only assume some of the medium and smaller clubs have lucrative sponsorship income and have already been compensated for all or most of what they would have budgeted to raise on matchdays in a normal season. With average attendance of 350 or so, Hungerford can't raise much more than four or five grand on a matchday which equates to no more than £100k gross per season. They've already had a £90k grant and are occupying a play-off place.

A Dorking Wanderers fan on another forum reckons they have around 60 sponsors contributing a total of around £700k for the season, the bulk of it from two or three major sponsors presumably with close links to the club's owner/directors, while others are probably paying anything from a few hundred quid upwards for ground and programme advertising. That sort revenue dwarfs what they would normally take on a matchday with average attendance of 700, therefore the loss of matchday income must represent a relatively small proportion of the normal budget. I would imagine most clubs in the division, including our own, have several dozen sponsors paying various amounts but I doubt many of them amount to anywhere near Dorking's figure.


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## StephenMac (Feb 1, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I can only assume some of the medium and smaller clubs have lucrative sponsorship income and have already been compensated for all or most of what they would have budgeted to raise on matchdays in a normal season. With average attendance of 350 or so, Hungerford can't raise much more than four or five grand on a matchday which equates to no more than £100k gross per season. They've already had a £90k grant and are occupying a play-off place.
> 
> A Dorking Wanderers fan on another forum reckons they have around 60 sponsors contributing a total of around £700k for the season, the bulk of it from two or three major sponsors presumably with close links to the club's owner/directors, while others are probably paying anything from a few hundred quid upwards for ground and programme advertising. That sort revenue dwarfs what they would normally take on a matchday with average attendance of 700, therefore the loss of matchday income must represent a relatively small proportion of the normal budget. I would imagine most clubs in the division, including our own, have several dozen sponsors paying various amounts but I doubt many of them amount to anywhere near Dorking's figure.


Listened to an interview with Marc White earlier. He said that Dorking's overall sponsorship for the season is £500k. Still an awful lot though.

He also came across less villainous than he sometimes does. On one hand he talks about taking legal action in the event of an amalgamated NLS & NLN vote leading to the season ending now, if the NLS only vote points towards continuing. On the other hand, he gets why the likes of us don't want to take on debt to complete the season. His solution to this is that those clubs who wish to stop now should be able to do so without penalty, while the rest carry on. How that would work is anyone's guess but I suppose it would certainly address fixture congestion. Don't know how it would deal with relegation either, assuming the Isthmian ever gets restarted.

Will be interesting to see the results of the club's survey of season ticket holders and Trust members, but going by Twitter (which obviously nobody ever should) there seems to be considerable appetite for telling the National League to shove its season up its arse and taking the consequences.


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## Roger D (Feb 1, 2021)

Details on what the vote is









						National League Statement | Written Resolutions - The Vanarama National League
					

The National League has distributed resolutions this evening for Member Clubs to consider the outcome of the 2020/21 season.




					www.thenationalleague.org.uk


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## Roger D (Feb 2, 2021)

Concord have informed the league they will not play on Saturday. Suspect a few more will follow.


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## StephenMac (Feb 2, 2021)

Hopefully more will follow.

That said, Concord's rather obnoxious chairman was gleefully telling clubs like ours that we should have budgeted better when we were screwed over in the grant shambles.

The fact he blew their ludicrous windfall on bringing in players who have brilliantly taken them to 18th is some source of amusement in these most unamusing of times. Concord should be at the bottom of the pile of clubs deserving of sympathy.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 2, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Listened to an interview with Marc White earlier. He said that Dorking's overall sponsorship for the season is £500k. Still an awful lot though.


Plus they had the £90k share of the lottery funding, so near enough £600k in total. I would imagine that's plenty to cover an entire season at this level, with the low overheads of playing at a modern council owned ground. I would also think most of the sponsorship money comes from companies closely associated with White himself, or other directors. 

Our own preferred model is totally different. I found some notes I took at a supporters forum in May 2019, at which the directors stated that the club had banked £480k gross from matchdays since returning to Champion Hill the previous December, split roughly 50/50 between gate receipts and bar/catering sales. There were 11 league matches plus a couple of county cup ties during that period, which equates to gross income of around £40k a match, or around £800k a season. All we've had to compensate for that is £108k from the lottery funding. Obviously some of that money would have disappeared in taxes, matchday staffing costs, stock replenishment etc. but we must be looking at a substantial six figure shortfall 

Everything looked so different just over a year ago when the club chairman addressed another supporters forum, telling us that we had a "top six playing budget" (albeit with a bottom six team!) and that the club was *debt* *free*. At that time the only great worry was the uncertainty over the ground, which was happily resolved in July. 

I'm sure it was also mentioned that the club wanted to increase the number of directors (which has happened with the addition of two representatives of the Supporters Trust) but that any newcomers had to fit in with the club's existing ethos. I've seen supporters of other clubs suggesting online that we should be charging for the match streaming if we're short of cash, or that we should make more effort to seek sponsorship. However the sort of people who are willing to invest six figure sums on an annual basis tend to want a degree of control and influence over the club's direction. They're the sort of people who took charge of a string of former National League clubs including Kingstonian, Canvey Island, Grays Athletic, Hornchurch, Fisher Athletic, Whitehawk, Margate etc. with a variety of unfortunate consequences. I wouldn't put Marc White into that category. He founded the club and has defined its direction and ethos but there may still be scope for the wheels to fall off if if he's ever unable to continue, as happened to Rushden & Diamonds after Max Griggs walked away.


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## StephenMac (Feb 2, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Plus they had the £90k share of the lottery funding, so near enough £600k in total. I would imagine that's plenty to cover an entire season at this level, with the low overheads of playing at a modern council owned ground. I would also think most of the sponsorship money comes from companies closely associated with White himself, or other directors.
> 
> Our own preferred model is totally different. I found some notes I took at a supporters forum in May 2019, at which the directors stated that the club had banked £480k gross from matchdays since returning to Champion Hill the previous December, split roughly 50/50 between gate receipts and bar/catering sales. There were 11 league matches plus a couple of county cup ties during that period, which equates to gross income of around £40k a match, or around £800k a season. All we've had to compensate for that is £108k from the lottery funding. Obviously some of that money would have disappeared in taxes, matchday staffing costs, stock replenishment etc. but we must be looking at a substantial six figure shortfall
> 
> ...


Completely agree that clubs need to be particularly vigilant at the moment about dodgy white knights riding to the rescue. Think it's right to separate Griggs from the clowns that screwed up the clubs you mention purely due to the longevity of his stay at R & D but ultimately they still ended up in the same boat.

Marc White is quite the enigma. I get the suggestion that Dorking's sponsorship may largely come from companies he's connected to but I've never actually seen the evidence. I think they have 75 sponsors which seems pretty spectacular, although I'm sure the majority are relatively minor. Who knows how far they and he will go before it goes wobbly. 

For us, I think absolutely the only thing that should matter to our club at the moment is financial stability. Everything else, including what league we play in, needs to be secondary at best.


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## Bugpowder Dust (Feb 2, 2021)

Anyone else feeling guilty about thinking it wouldn't be all bad if we got expelled from the national league and had to start back down at the bottom of the pyramid?


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## Roger D (Feb 2, 2021)

If that's what it takes to keep the club founded by Pa in 1893 alive, I'll back it all the way.

Taking on lots of debt and ending up as AFC DHFC (2023) or something similar holds no appeal.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 3, 2021)

Bugpowder Dust said:


> Anyone else feeling guilty about thinking it wouldn't be all bad if we got expelled from the national league and had to start back down at the bottom of the pyramid?


I've no idea how grave the current situation is but I'm sure there must be several other clubs in the division in a similar situation to ourselves.  

If the League was to expel half a dozen clubs who would they replace them with? (Don't forget the league is already 6 clubs short because the North and South Divisions were supposed to increase to 24 clubs each last summer, while the demise of Bury and Macclesfield has left two further vacancies.) Are there numerous clubs in the regional leagues robust enough to step up and satisfy all the criteria for this level during the current climate? 

I just don't know how all these clubs who want to press on regardless are finding the money right now. If anything I'd have thought sponsors would be less forthcoming than usual, as many of them must surely be struggling with their own operating difficulties during the pandemic.

It took us 14 years to reach this division after it was formed in 2004. I always thought it was the right level for our club to aspire to. A stronger version of the Isthmian Premier Division from which we were relegated in 2001, with a few clubs from the Midlands and South West and no room for the makeweights of the Isthmian League.

The longer we spend in the National League the less I like what I see.  It started before we even played our first match when we were made to replace two sets of brand new kit because the League sponsor's logo had been printed on the left sleeve instead of the right, even though it was no less prominent or visible. 

Football supporters are prone to moaning and criticising people within the game at any opportunity: players, managers, directors, referees, opponents. However the clowns running this shitshow have truly surpassed themselves this season with an astonishing litany of clueless and incompetent decisions, compounding the situation with evasive responses and a refusal to answer for their mistakes.

The Isthmian South East Division is little more than a Kent superleague these days, while the Isthmian Premier no longer has any clubs from Suffolk or even North West London, but all I really want right now is to get back to watching matches in a sensibly run league once we're allowed to have the crowds back.


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## Roger D (Feb 3, 2021)

I have no inside knowledge but suspect the reason the league has offered members a vote on ending the season is that a substantial number of clubs informed them they cannot finish the season. If so, we are potentially looking at numerous resignations in the worst case scenario.

I hope we and everyone else are still tier two next season.  A substantial number if resignations would have a massive impact lower down the pyramid. We wouldn't have been too impressed if five or six tier two teams voluntarily dropped down to the Isthmian South when we were stuck there.

Voluntary demotion should only occur / be permitted where necessary to save a club. I would totally support it under those circumstances.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 3, 2021)

Roger D said:


> I have no inside knowledge but suspect the reason the league has offered members a vote on ending the season is that a substantial number of clubs informed them they cannot finish the season. If so, we are potentially looking at numerous resignations in the worst case scenario.
> 
> I hope we and everyone else are still tier two next season.  A substantial number if resignations would have a massive impact lower down the pyramid. We wouldn't have been too impressed if five or six tier two teams voluntarily dropped down to the Isthmian South when we were stuck there.
> 
> *Voluntary demotion should only occur / be permitted where necessary to save a club. I would totally support it under those circumstances.*


Yes, whilst the survey issued to supporters a few days ago hinted that taking a demotion to avoid long term financial distress would be considered I'm sure it's an absolute last resort, and there surely must be other clubs who would be forced out of the league one way or another before we are.

The thought that occurred to me this morning is that if clubs are prepared to play on without another grant it effectively means they don't need paying supporters turning up at the ground, they can manage without them. In which case why have they been charging spectators all these years, with prices consistently rising ahead of inflation? Why, for instance, do St Albans charge 18 quid ground admission to have a 5,000 capacity ground less than 20% full? When we're back to normal they may as well drop the price to a five, or even make it free, to see if they can fill the ground.


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## Roger D (Feb 3, 2021)

There are reports online the league have threatened "action" against any club who fails to play on Saturday.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 3, 2021)

Roger D said:


> There are reports online the league have threatened "action" against any club who fails to play on Saturday.


This Is risible. Our last scheduled match was postponed at 4 hours notice because one player reported coronavirus symptoms. Presumably he would then have been tested, but not necessarily found positive. (The season was suspended before it was announced whether or not a positive test had occurred, which would have meant postponing further matches.)

All officials and volunteers (and presumably players) have to submit an online form before each match, basically confirming they have no reason to believe they may have the virus or have been in contact with anyone who has. If players have still been training together it's only going to need one of them to tick a relevant box and the game should be off.

(In case anyone has lost interest, we're scheduled to play away to Braintree on Saturday.)


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## Roger D (Feb 3, 2021)

A League Board member speaks. (Spoiler, it's all Boris' fault apparently.)

He also basically admits the league assumed grants would continue and didn't ask for confirmation of this before starting the season.  Oops.









						Chairman of one of Hampshire’s three National League clubs ‘feels let down’ by the Government over funding crisis
					

The chairman of one of Hampshire’s three National League clubs feels ‘let down’ by the Government over the funding crisis which could see the season curtailed.




					www.portsmouth.co.uk


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## Roger D (Feb 3, 2021)

Hamlet are one of 17 North and South teams to sign a statement taking a pop at the league for threatening teams who don't play with action.

The 17 have also stated they will submit their votes quickly and ask other teams to do the same.

Edited to say Concord seem to be backtracking and now say they will play on Tuesday so it may be down to 16.


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## PartisanDulwich (Feb 3, 2021)

We are very fortunate that the support we have built up in recent years has been primarily based on community solidarity, rather than success in moving through the Leagues and League status has never been set as an objective by any official (I have heard) -
Our attendances in recent years while struggling in the relegation zone has been truly amazing (even if you accept a loss in atmosphere is made up by takings in the bar/food).
I am hopeful the vast majority of our support will remain with us what ever League we play in, that said not keen on any voluntary relegation or phoenix club.

I am sure the Club have a number of red lines and I have faith the Club officials will make the right decisions - they have called it right on ever occasion during this crisis
It will be our job to not only offer critical support but also convey those decisions to supporters and the wider community (so the narrative will be important)
Finally, I fear a number of other Clubs (with proud records) will not make it out of this crisis, without incurring serious debts that if it does not finish them off this season will be terminal in the long term
Certainly, not arguing Dulwich Hamlet are to big too fail and that's why we cannot rely on anyone else but ourselves and our supporters to get us through this


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## Pink Panther (Feb 4, 2021)

Roger D said:


> A League Board member speaks. (Spoiler, it's all Boris' fault apparently.)
> 
> He also basically admits the league assumed grants would continue and didn't ask for confirmation of this before starting the season.  Oops.
> 
> ...


This sums up the myopic muddled thinking in a nutshell.

So he'd like to continue the season but his club needs £50k-£60k a month for the next 5 months to do that. This will only happen if either someone gives them a shedload of cash or supporters are allowed back, neither of which is likely to happen any time soon. We've already had over a month with no money coming in, therefore the season needs to end before everyone loses even more money and gets deeper into debt. Not after yet another month of dither and delay, but *now*.

Just to be clear about it, because it's easy to confuse those half-baked thoughts with those of a supporter insufficiently acquainted with reality, this is one of the 8 members of the League Management Committee who are supposed to be showing guidance and leadership to act in the best interests of all member clubs.


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## Roger D (Feb 4, 2021)

It's worse than that...

The sums Shahid quotes don't tally with a previous statement in the Aldershot paper two weeks ago. Then he effectively defended the higher flat allocation for the Prem by saying Shots running costs were over £100k per month yet he's now saying they need £250-300k to get to the end of the season (and what about the rest of summer?) 

Shots must be getting a huge number of fans watching their live streams if they are paying around half their cost base from income each month at the moment...

Shots generally run at a loss, often covered by shares sales. However; I believe their shares are all but fully allocated now.

Woking fans like to jibe about Shahid's magic calculator after his unsuccessful spell there. Hmm.


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## Roger D (Feb 4, 2021)

Chippenham have called the league's bluff and confirmed they won't play on Saturday irrespective of the threatened sanctions.

Edited to say Kettering are also refusing to play.


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## JoeBoy1959 (Feb 4, 2021)

Aren't we due to play Braintree away on Saturday? Anyone know what's happening?


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## Roger D (Feb 4, 2021)

Unless the club state otherwise tomorrow, we are playing.

Curzon Ashton are now also  refusing to play. Billericay have said all contracted players will be replaced by members of their U23 team so they don't have to recall the contracted players from furlough. If the season plays on, I can see more teams doing that.

On a different planet, AFC Fylde are demanding the league take firm action against those who don't play but olay in the trophy.

Edited to say Slough Town are also now refusing to play on Saturday


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## Pink Panther (Feb 4, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Woking fans like to jibe about Shahid's magic calculator after his unsuccessful spell there. Hmm.


I didn't realise he'd been there. I'm always wary of "professional" football directors who move from club to club.  They often seem to be the sort of people who make their money by running companies into the ground, liquidating them, then start a new one. Some of them appear to be borderline long firm fraudsters.


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## Roger D (Feb 4, 2021)

Shahid left Woking after a vote of no confidence.









						Azeem: The accounts prove my case
					

SHAHID AZEEM insists he has been vindicated by Woking Football Club’s accounts for the year ending May 2010 after being accused of failing to run the club in a financially responsible manner. The f…




					byfleetnews.wordpress.com


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## Roger D (Feb 5, 2021)

Bath City have confirmed this morning that they won't be playing tomorrow.


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## Roger D (Feb 5, 2021)

Important statement from DHFC









						Dulwich Hamlet Football Club and Dulwich Hamlet Supporters’ Trust  Statement to fans, supporters and stakeholders  February 5, 2021
					

The club is unable to fulfil its fixtures due to the League’s inability to resolve the reason for the suspension.




					www.pitchero.com


----------



## YTC (Feb 5, 2021)

New statement from club and trust here and attached: https://pitchero.com/clubs/dulwichhamlet/news/dulwich-hamlet-football-club-and-dulwich-hamlet-supporters-trust-statement-to-fans-supporters-and-stakeholders-february-5-2021-2597900.html… #DHFC


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## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Buzzed. I'm sure I could have done better with the wordy title, mind. 









						Dulwich Hamlet say they are unable to fulfil their fixtures due to the League’s inability to resolve the reason for the league suspension
					

Dulwich Hamlet FC and Dulwich Hamlet Supporters’ Trust say the future of the 128 year old community club is now at risk because of the League’s insistence that games must go ahead while…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## Blitzwalker (Feb 5, 2021)

I think so far, Bath, Chippenham, Slough and ourselves refusing to play tomorrow. Perfectly correct decision IMHO.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 5, 2021)

Curzon Ashton and Kettering Town in the North as well. 

Heading towards 10% of the league's membership.

Edited to say add Spennymoor too. Quite a classy statement from them.









						Statement from the Chief Executive & Managing Director | Spennymoor Town FC
					

Spennymoor Town can confirm that the club has voted to null and void the 2020/21 Vanarama National League North season. All of the decisions the club has made throughout the global health crisis have been guided by one key principle: ensuring the safety of our players, staff, volunteers and...




					spennymoortownfc.co.uk


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## Blitzwalker (Feb 5, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Curzon Ashton and Kettering Town in the North as well.
> 
> Heading towards 10% of the league's membership.
> 
> ...


Chester have just tweeted that they won't be playing tomorrow, or until the situation is resolved.


----------



## scousedom (Feb 5, 2021)

YTC said:


> New statement from club and trust here and attached: https://pitchero.com/clubs/dulwichhamlet/news/dulwich-hamlet-football-club-and-dulwich-hamlet-supporters-trust-statement-to-fans-supporters-and-stakeholders-february-5-2021-2597900.html… #DHFC


Yes lads.


----------



## Dodger (Feb 5, 2021)

Absolutely the right decision and if the league want to sanction clubs then fuck em.

I know there’s arguments going on about weather the club should have ambition or not. But if it means having to deal with shit like this every year I’d take an eternity in the isthmian with trips to Lewes, Whitehawk and Folkestone over staying out or moving up.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 5, 2021)

Some of the horse shit justifications coming from clubs who want to carry on because they fancy rolling the dice on a pop at promotion is pretty extraordinary.

And now we have NLS clubs cynically voting against resolution 1 so as to reduce their own division's influence over the outcome.

The only people who'd really want to be in National League South are those who have yet to experience it.

What a fucking business.


----------



## AveryDave (Feb 5, 2021)

The entire process they've come up with is a racket to try and serve their own interests, from relying on the 28 day nonsense to try and force clubs to keep playing and tick off another month, to giving their favoured clubs ways of influencing the results at every stage. Their amateurishness would be amusing if it wasn't for the damage they can cause.

Whilst I realise the purpose of competitive sport is to win and seek the highest levels of achievement you can, at this point I wouldn't have a problem with us never setting foot in the National League again.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 5, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> I think so far, Bath, Chippenham, Slough and ourselves refusing to play tomorrow. Perfectly correct decision IMHO.





Roger D said:


> Curzon Ashton and Kettering Town in the North as well.
> 
> Heading towards 10% of the league's membership.
> 
> Edited to say add Spennymoor too.





Blitzwalker said:


> Chester have just tweeted that they won't be playing tomorrow, or until the situation is resolved.



Bradford Park Avenue is another, so I reckon that's 9 clubs in total.

I believe the League Management Committee is primarily concerned by a perceived loss of face if they're unable to offer candidates for promotion to the Football League, which in turn may attempt to pull up the drawbridge by cutting the number of promotion places available in future if you believe some rumours. It's all about people protecting their own self interest and playing power politics. Any clubs unable to fend for themselves are just collateral damage to these bastards. A league is supposed to safeguard the best interests of all its members by raising the level for everyone, not devour the weakest from within.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 5, 2021)

I've only just seen this article from a week ago. At least 6 of our players have tested positive since the season began and one has been unable to play or train for almost 6 weeks and counting.









						Dulwich Hamlet boss: National League made right call to suspend season – but decision took too long
					

Dulwich Hamlet manager Gavin Rose has welcomed the National League South season being put on hold – but reckons it should have happened sooner. Last weekend’s matches were postponed with the …




					londonnewsonline.co.uk


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## Nivag (Feb 5, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I've only just seen this article from a week ago. At least 6 of our players have tested positive since the season began and one has been unable to play or train for almost 6 weeks and counting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this was something I'd not heard before 



> Dulwich only pay their players a wage if their matches are on, a break from the normal procedure due to the uncertainty over the campaign.


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## Roger D (Feb 5, 2021)

I didn't know that but am not surprised. Many Conference clubs havebalready confirmed they did that. I suspect it may have been recommended by either the league or FA pre-season.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 5, 2021)

Surely - questions soon about the ethics of staying in such a League  - accept easier said than done...but
is it not the time to also raise the issue of League governance, ethics and objectives  longer term

Fully accept secondary, to the immediate crisis we face

We cannot speak on behalf of other Clubs , up to them to decide their future

But DHFC officials set a great example in informing supporters and in its leadership


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## Paula_G (Feb 6, 2021)

Nivag said:


> this was something I'd not heard before


But presumably that pay break only applies if the game is off due to circumstances beyond the control of the club such as Covid & maybe the weather. And of course the players will still have to be paid should the season be extended to accommodate breaks, which them makes me wonder what might happen where one of those games is rescheduled especially where there are two or more games where there might have been one? The question then arises about Saturday’s game and whether players & management of both sides should get paid...


----------



## Roger D (Feb 6, 2021)

Presumably the contract players are paid per week not game. I suspect the 2020/21 contract states they are paid each week the club plays. 

I'd imagine the players will be furloughed now on the grounds we are not playing so their labour is not required. Not playing won't save much money if the players remain paid by the club - probably the biggest single expense.


----------



## Paula_G (Feb 6, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Presumably the contract players are paid per week not game. I suspect the 2020/21 contract states they are paid each week the club plays.
> 
> I'd imagine the players will be furloughed now on the grounds we are not playing so their labour is not required. Not playing won't save much money if the players remain paid by the club - probably the biggest single expense.


As far I remember Contracted players are paid per week so what I was trying to explain perhaps in a muddled way that under this players would be losing a week’s pay under this system each time a game is called off & rescheduled into a week when they were already due to play. The only way a player would get back that week would be is games were added on at the end of the season and the season extended by the same number of weeks...


----------



## bkbk (Feb 6, 2021)

Quite enjoying the NL not even recognising that half their member clubs are refusing to play this weekend. Not a mention of it anywhere. Abysmal league.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 6, 2021)

bkbk said:


> Quite enjoying the NL not even recognising that half their member clubs are refusing to play this weekend. Not a mention of it anywhere. Abysmal league.



Some of the matches would have been postponed anyway due to FA Trophy ties, which are taking place, but it does appear to be something of an elephant in the room.


----------



## Paula_G (Feb 6, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I didn't realise he'd been there. I'm always wary of "professional" football directors who move from club to club.  They often seem to be the sort of people who make their money by running companies into the ground, liquidating them, then start a new one. Some of them appear to be borderline long firm fraudsters.


Strange that this chap seems to struggle to run football clubs when he appears to have a long run of success in other businesses. He’s also just been made High Sheriff of Surrey... Shahid Azeem


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 6, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Strange that this chap seems to struggle to run football clubs when he appears to have a long run of success in other businesses. He’s also just been made High Sheriff of Surrey... Shahid Azeem


At least his non-football background sounds credible enough. The trouble is that football clubs aren't really like other businesses and it's not unusual for successful businessmento come unstuck once they start dabbling with running football clubs. Remember Mark Goldberg (self made multi-millionaire now at Welling) bankrupting Palace in record time? Then there was Bob Laslett who spent silly money for a couple of years at Margate before realising it was a money pit.


----------



## Paula_G (Feb 6, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> At least his non-football background sounds credible enough. The trouble is that football clubs aren't really like other businesses and it's not unusual for successful businessmento come unstuck once they start dabbling with running football clubs. Remember Mark Goldberg (self made multi-millionaire now at Welling) bankrupting Palace in record time? Then there was Bob Laslett who spent silly money for a couple of years at Margate before realising it was a money pit.


Apparently this chap was a promising footballer until he suffered a career ending injury in his teens... Often see that in these types that let the heart rule the head with business sense going of the window in pursuit of success on the field...


----------



## Noss (Feb 7, 2021)

Latest voting intentions according to the one informed journalist who seems to take a genuine interest in all of this. Looks like there are six clubs in the NLS Rebel Alliance.

Edited to add that it’s interesting that some clubs in our league think our fate should be determined by the NL clubs (i.e. against resolution #1), presumably because they think that will increase their chances of continuing the season.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 7, 2021)

Noss said:


> Latest voting intentions according to the one informed journalist who seems to take a genuine interest in all of this. Looks like there are six clubs in the NLS Rebel Alliance.
> 
> Edited to add that it’s interesting that some clubs in our league think our fate should be determined by the NL clubs (i.e. against resolution #1), presumably because they think that will increase their chances of continuing the season.



That's 15-11 in favour of ending the season at our level. Even if all the rest want to carry on, expecting more than a third of the membership to play on until May under duress with no guarantee of any income is just not on. In practice I suspect it would lead to many clubs withdrawing from the league with dozens of results expunged, leaving asfew as 13 clubs in the North Division table.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 7, 2021)

Lateral flow devices (LFDs) and tests for Covid being offered to non-league teams

Many hospitals & schools stopped using because of number of "false positives" BMJ reported 
*Covid-19: Safety of lateral flow tests questioned after they are found to miss half of cases*
*https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4744*


They have millions going spare


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## PartisanDulwich (Feb 7, 2021)

"Rebel Alliance"
liking that


----------



## Paula_G (Feb 7, 2021)

Think they should be removing all the fans at NLHQ as the shit is about to hit them in a big way... Dover chairman quits National League board


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## Roger D (Feb 7, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Apparently this chap was a promising footballer until he suffered a career ending injury in his teens... Often see that in these types that let the heart rule the head with business sense going of the window in pursuit of success on the field...



His son played non-league and was decent enough. Last time I saw him he was sent off for swearing at the linesman, they were still called that then. Shahid also ran Guildford City for a while.

I advised the local council and Aldershot Command on elements of their WW1 commemorations so went to various events. Shahid gave the impression he'd turn up at the opening bid an envelope if it would help his networking.

To his credit, he lost a fair bit of money in Shots last administration, he's not there for the money - in the short run at least.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 7, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> Think they should be removing all the fans at NLHQ as the shit is about to hit them in a big way... Dover chairman quits National League board


That's a very open and honest assessment, and also very worrying.


----------



## KentyinWeardale (Feb 7, 2021)

Hi all, in case you hadn't seen it a good article from the ever reliable twohundredpercent website

The National League Plummets Into Chaos | Twohundredpercent 

Stay safe


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## Paula_G (Feb 7, 2021)

After being knocked out of the FA Trophy yesterday Maidstone United have become the latest club to throw their weight behind the cessation of the season rather than carry on with the carry on.. Not sure of the exact figures for & against now so if any one has an update could you post?





						Statement in respect of the National League resolutions - Maidstone United FC
					

Maidstone United Directors made their views known a fortnight ago regarding the ongoing season. We would still prefer in principle to finish the season uninterrupted and thereby provide some interest for our supporters at a difficult time but not if fans are unlikely to return any time soon and...




					www.maidstoneunited.co.uk


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## Paula_G (Feb 7, 2021)

Using the rather incomplete information in the Ollie Bayliss spreadsheets on his Twitter feed I reckon 10 NLN & 7 NLS clubs have showed their hand as either voting for or being likely to vote for the cessation of the league. Based on previously published grant distribution models that doesn’t much surprise me as the majority of NLN clubs ended up shortchanged on the grants whereas the majority of NLS clubs benefited


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## Roger D (Feb 8, 2021)

TBH the key vote seems to be resolution one. If that passes tier two will probably halt. If it fails, it probably won't. It only needs eight tier one sides to vote against.

The presumption in tier two is the four votes go with a simple majority vote per division.(Nailed on against north, closer in the south.) However various clubs have stated they haven't been informed whether it's a simple majority vote division = four votes.

Another shambles.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 8, 2021)

Roger D said:


> The presumption in tier two is the four votes go with a simple majority vote per division.(Nailed on against north, closer in the south.) However various clubs have stated they haven't been informed whether it's a simple majority vote division = four votes.
> 
> Another shambles.


Marc White suggested in one of his video interviews that it's done on proportional representation, i.e. the votes could be cast 3-1 either way, or 2-2.

Last season when there was a vote I'm sure one of our own club officials confirmed that all four votes would be cast as a block according to majority consensus on that occasion. 

Frankly it wouldn't be the National League if it was clear and obvious and not open to misinterpretation.

Any danger of the Bernstein Report being published while we're at it?


----------



## pettyboy (Feb 8, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> That's a very open and honest assessment, and also very worrying.


Too little, too late


----------



## Paula_G (Feb 8, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Marc White suggested in one of his video interviews that it's done on proportional representation, i.e. the votes could be cast 3-1 either way, or 2-2.
> 
> Last season when there was a vote I'm sure one of our own club officials confirmed that all four votes would be cast as a block according to majority consensus on that occasion.
> 
> ...


Unsurprisingly the voting allocation remains as clear as mud... According to Ollie Bayliss the NLN/NLS votes are allocated on a straight majority basis...


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 9, 2021)

Gateshead now confirmed that they have voted to null + void. Also will not be playing in the meantime.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 9, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> Gateshead now confirmed that they have voted to null + void. Also will not be playing in the meantime.


I'm guessing those determined to play on have already made it clear. I'd expect those who haven't yet declared will conclude that they just can't afford to continue even if they'd like to. 

It sounds like Hemel were unable to stream their home game with Dorking on Saturday due to technical problems but refused Dorking's media team permission to do a live stream, therefore no one was even able to watch remotely. Premier League matches occasionally get called off at this time of the year if adverse weather conditions mean it's unsafe for supporters to attend, even though the pitch is fit and the players could play. Why wasn't that game called off if no one could see it? What is the actual point in playing elite sports that no one can see. It's becoming like e-sports for deluded club owners.


----------



## Nivag (Feb 9, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I'm guessing those determined to play on have already made it clear. I'd expect those who haven't yet declared will conclude that they just can't afford to continue even if they'd like to.
> 
> It sounds like Hemel were unable to stream their home game with Dorking on Saturday due to technical problems but refused Dorking's media team permission to do a live stream, therefore no one was even able to watch remotely. Premier League matches occasionally get called off at this time of the year if adverse weather conditions mean it's unsafe for supporters to attend, even though the pitch is fit and the players could play. Why wasn't that game called off if no one could see it? What is the actual point in playing elite sports that no one can see. It's becoming like e-sports for deluded club owners.


That's bad they wouldn't let Dorking stream the match. They are pissing off both teams supporters.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 9, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I'm guessing those determined to play on have already made it clear. I'd expect those who haven't yet declared will conclude that they just can't afford to continue even if they'd like to.
> 
> It sounds like Hemel were unable to stream their home game with Dorking on Saturday due to technical problems but refused Dorking's media team permission to do a live stream, therefore no one was even able to watch remotely. Premier League matches occasionally get called off at this time of the year if adverse weather conditions mean it's unsafe for supporters to attend, even though the pitch is fit and the players could play. Why wasn't that game called off if no one could see it? What is the actual point in playing elite sports that no one can see. It's becoming like e-sports for deluded club owners.


They are also insisting their game at home to Havant is still on tonight even though the area seems to be under a fairly substantial covering of snow. Playing St Albans-style silly buggers?

No mention of a live stream either.


----------



## chris gil (Feb 9, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I'm guessing those determined to play on have already made it clear. I'd expect those who haven't yet declared will conclude that they just can't afford to continue even if they'd like to.
> 
> It sounds like Hemel were unable to stream their home game with Dorking on Saturday due to technical problems but refused Dorking's media team permission to do a live stream, therefore no one was even able to watch remotely. Premier League matches occasionally get called off at this time of the year if adverse weather conditions mean it's unsafe for supporters to attend, even though the pitch is fit and the players could play. Why wasn't that game called off if no one could see it? What is the actual point in playing elite sports that no one can see. It's becoming like e-sports for deluded club owners.



😁😁 brilliant


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## Roger D (Feb 9, 2021)

Dover Athletic are on the verge of ceasing footballing activities for the foreseeable future and the Chairman is open to offers to buy the club.






						CHAIRMAN’S MESSAGE FOR SUPPORTERS – DOVER ATHLETIC FC
					






					www.doverathletic.com


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## Pink Panther (Feb 9, 2021)

A frank view of events from Liam Watson of Southport. (Relevant part begins around 01:30)


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## YTC (Feb 9, 2021)

We've put a thread out on twitter explaining where we are with the national league.

We'll get it over to you editor tomorrow AM, and up on our website by the afternoon for those who are twitter averse, i'm logging out for the night before my eyes bleed.


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## StephenMac (Feb 9, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> A frank view of events from Liam Watson of Southport. (Relevant part begins around 01:30)



Top man.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 9, 2021)

YTC said:


> We've put a thread out on twitter explaining where we are with the national league.
> 
> We'll get it over to you editor tomorrow AM, and up on our website by the afternoon for those who are twitter averse, i'm logging out for the night before my eyes bleed.



I'd query one item on that list. If contracted players are all furloughed surely they are no longer "available"? Therefore a team cobbled together from unpaid replacements becomes the strongest "available" team. (Of course it would then reflect very poorly on a supposedly "elite" competition if several teams are going through the motions with substandard players.)

Looking at those League Rules just makes it even more clear and obvious that this season should never have started in the first place.


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## Roger D (Feb 9, 2021)

Furloughed players are still registered with the league. Failing to play the strongest team probably refers to the strongest registered team. I doubt league rules allow for furlough.


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## YTC (Feb 9, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Furloughed players are still registered with the league. Failing to play the strongest team probably refers to the strongest registered team. I doubt league rules allow for furlough.



Exactly that, we've chosen to furlough them - they would or could argue that if we took the loan we wouldn't have to furlough them. Just layers upon layers of nonsense from them.


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## Paula_G (Feb 10, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Furloughed players are still registered with the league. Failing to play the strongest team probably refers to the strongest registered team. I doubt league rules allow for furlough.


A good lawyer could almost certainly argue that any player being furloughed is “unavailable” considering that both player & club would be committing fraud should those furloughed players be playing..


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## Pink Panther (Feb 10, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> A good lawyer could almost certainly argue that any player being furloughed is “unavailable” considering that both player & club would be committing fraud should those furloughed players be playing..


That was my thinking but, as I said earlier, it's hardly the hallmark of an "elite" competition if clubs have to use unpaid amateurs to complete their fixtures. 

At best just one of the 5 or 6 solutions available to member clubs falls within the League's own rules.


----------



## AveryDave (Feb 10, 2021)

The questions posed by the club are well considered and entirely valid. The League has set the rules of the competition, the current situation is understandably testing the application of those rules, and it's appropriate for clarification to be provided. That the League isn't providing that clarification is the cause of the current position - they can't or won't provide that clarity, leaving clubs at risk of subsequent sanction, and that continues until they make clear how their own rules will be applied.

The League should have acted as quickly and decisively as possible to provide clarity to a situation their rules clearly weren't intended to deal with - that they've not done that, to the benefit of their member clubs, gives rise to obvious questions over who does benefit from or is protected by their refusal to do so.

And if it gets to the point where there are lawyers in court arguing the finer points of the application of the rules we might as well all go home. Which at this rate is not to say it doesn't reach that point, of course.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 10, 2021)

I think replacing paid players who are on furlough with unpaid players would be dodgy for all sorts of reasons - if it's not also fraudulent use of furlough it's certainly an abuse of the system and very ethically dodgy. 

I'm sure those in charge wouldn't go down that route though.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 10, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> The League should have acted as quickly and decisively as possible to provide clarity to a situation their rules clearly weren't intended to deal with - that they've not done that, to the benefit of their member clubs, gives rise to obvious questions over who benefits from or is protected by their refusal to do so.



This is the point really isn't. What is the point of a league at all - it seems they don't see it as being for the clubs who compete in it who they're treating like the enemy, and it's certainly not for the fans who can't go to games anyway. They should be working to ensure the best outcome for the member clubs and I'd say the best possible outcome now is all of those clubs still existing when something approaching normality resumes. Instead they're digging their heels in and for what exactly?


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 10, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> This is the point really isn't. What is the point of a league at all - it seems they don't see it as being for the clubs who compete in it who they're treating like the enemy, and it's certainly not for the fans who can't go to games anyway. They should be working to ensure the best outcome for the member clubs and I'd say the best possible outcome now is all of those clubs still existing when something approaching normality resumes. Instead they're digging their heels in and for what exactly?


A sensible solution surely would be to let the clubs who want to end their seasons do just that and let the clubs who want to continue get on with some weird mini-league. Obviously all but two of the second group will probably come to regret their decision but that would be on them. That would also reduce the ridiculous number of games that would need to be played if everyone continued. I mean, Slough and Welling have 28 games left each and we're approaching mid-February.

This would obviously only be possible if step 3 is done for the season i.e. no relegation from NLS.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 10, 2021)

National League "refuse to comment".









						National League refuse to comment as Dulwich Hamlet take stance not to resume their season due to financial fears
					

The National League have declined to comment on Dulwich Hamlet refusing to resume their campaign unless adequate funding is in place.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk
				




Is the League Chairman Brian Barwick OBE still alive? Ever since the season started he seems to have been doing a passable impersonation of George Osborne following the EU referendum result.


----------



## YTC (Feb 10, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile - But an equally good lawyer could argue it is the clubs choice to furlough, and that finance is being made available. Chicken and Egg really as NL haven't specified which sanctions will be acted upon.

Regardless, the club won't put itself in debt for 3 months of football. Even the loans don't cover the actual rest of the season, only until March.

League board has to go, absolute shambles.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 10, 2021)

YTC said:


> Griff_Turnstile
> Regardless, the club won't put itself in debt for 3 months of football. Even the loans don't cover the actual rest of the season, only until March.
> 
> League board has to go, absolute shambles.


It beggars belief. So, even if the clubs took this loan option and carried on, the same situation will recur at the end of next month with another ten weeks until the play-off final.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 10, 2021)

The chairman speaks to the Southwark News:









						Dulwich Hamlet chairman comes out fighting as club could face penalties if they don't fulfill fixtures - Southwark News
					

The Hamlet have played just thirteen league games this season - and say they won't be forced into debt




					www.southwarknews.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 10, 2021)

A statement from Tonbridge Angels:









						Angels try to make sense of an impossible situation - Tonbridge Angels FC
					

Preservation of the club must be the overriding aim




					www.tonbridgeangels.co.uk


----------



## YTC (Feb 10, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> A statement from Tonbridge Angels:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Imitation is the greatest form of flattery


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 10, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> A statement from Tonbridge Angels:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They've changed their tune since McKimm was agreeing with A*t Smith at Concord that clubs stiffed during the grant shambles/corruption should have budgeted better.

Still, they got there in the end.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 11, 2021)

Reports online suggest clubs are today being formally notified of charges for failing to fulfil fixtures last weekend. Punishment ranges up to expulsion from memory, though I can't see that happening for a first "offence."

Nothing like pouring petrol on a fire to put it out. Especially on the day a letter from a  DCMS minister to another MP emerges, using coded language to criticise the league for getting clubs to restart on a promise of the grants rolling over if required.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 11, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Reports online suggest clubs are today being formally notified of charges for failing to fulfil fixtures last weekend. Punishment ranges up to expulsion from memory, though I can't see that happening for a first "offence."
> 
> Nothing like pouring petrol on a fire to put it out. Especially on the day a letter from a  DCMS minister to another MP emerges, using coded language to criticise the league for getting clubs to restart on a promise of the grants rolling over if required.


The League Board members have clearly never heard the old proverb that "when you're in a hole, stop digging". They seem to be locked into a cycle of just doubling down on the blunders they've already made any refusing to admit to any mistakes. The first and biggest mistake was to even consider starting behind closed doors, then to find someone daft enough to fund it. 

What's actually happened to League Chairman Brian Barwick OBE? We never seem to hear from him. On the face of it he ought to be a big hitter at this level with plenty of useful contacts, given his experience of high profile roles at the FA and RFL. I've begun to think he must have seen this job as a nice little sinecure to tide him over for the last few years before retirement without really having to do anything. Now he's presiding over a massive crisis and seems to have gone missing in action.


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## Nivag (Feb 11, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The League Board members have clearly never heard the old proverb that "when you're in a hole, stop digging". They seem to be locked into a cycle of just doubling down on the blunders they've already made any refusing to admit to any mistakes. The first and biggest mistake was to even consider starting behind closed doors, then to find someone daft enough to fund it.
> 
> What's actually happened to League Chairman Brian Barwick OBE? We never seem to hear from him. On the face of it he ought to be a big hitter at this level with plenty of useful contacts, given his experience of high profile roles at the FA and RFL. I've begun to think he must have seen this job as a nice little sinecure to tide him over for the last few years before retirement without really having to do anything. Now he's presiding over a massive crisis and seems to have gone missing in action.


If the league digs any deeper the clubs will be playing Aussie rules by the end of the season.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 11, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The League Board members have clearly never heard the old proverb that "when you're in a hole, stop digging". They seem to be locked into a cycle of just doubling down on the blunders they've already made any refusing to admit to any mistakes. The first and biggest mistake was to even consider starting behind closed doors, then to find someone daft enough to fund it.
> 
> What's actually happened to League Chairman Brian Barwick OBE? We never seem to hear from him. On the face of it he ought to be a big hitter at this level with plenty of useful contacts, given his experience of high profile roles at the FA and RFL. I've begun to think he must have seen this job as a nice little sinecure to tide him over for the last few years before retirement without really having to do anything. Now he's presiding over a massive crisis and seems to have gone missing in action.



The Rugby Football League cited his contacts when he joined them. By the time he left a lot of people were asking whether he had mislaid his contacts file given how little difference his presence seemed to make. 

I didn't see him at London Broncos much, which seemed odd given his role in the sport and given he only lived about four miles away. Perhaps he spent most weekends on the M62.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 11, 2021)

Think I might drop Vanarama a line telling them they can go whistle if they think I'll ever use their services given they seem to be standing by and watching as hundred plus year old community clubs are driven to extinction in their name.

The sponsor getting concerned about their image could see pressure put on the clowns running the league to reign in their egos.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 11, 2021)

Hamlet have tweeted confirmation the club has been charged with failing to fulfill the Braintree and St Albans fixtures.


----------



## YTC (Feb 11, 2021)

Fuck the bullies. We've got form here.


----------



## bkbk (Feb 11, 2021)

Wouldn't even bother replying to those clowns at the League


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 11, 2021)

bkbk said:


> Wouldn't even bother replying to those clowns at the League


Agreed. And if they come round just close the curtains and pretend we're not in.


----------



## bkbk (Feb 11, 2021)

Tell them we need a loan to pay the fine


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 11, 2021)

At a times like this,  if your a nation state you turn to the UN or if an employer in dispute with your staff - ACAS conciliation, at least in an attempt to try and plot a way forward.
The National League could of course, look towards the services of an expert, I don't know say like  David Bernstein (then again....he may not be very keen given how his excellent advice was ignored last time.)

But seriously, we need to be suggesting how this could ever start being resolved ("Blessed are the peace makers")

Suggesting a conciliator "may" be a way forward , I doubt the League would opt for it given their bunker mentality, but at least we can say we tried

In the meantime forward with the "Rebel Alliance"


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 11, 2021)

I guess they couldn’t get consensus on stopping the league?. So they will just keep docking points?.

Not arsed if we end up going back down to the isthmian tbh.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 12, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> I guess they couldn’t get consensus on stopping the league?. So they will just keep docking points?.
> 
> Not arsed if we end up going back down to the isthmian tbh.


Voting on continuing or stopping the league doesn't close until the end of the month in accordance with a legal requirement to give clubs 28 days in which to vote. This is part of our club's argument. The National League suspended fixtures for a fortnight around 3 weeks ago, then ordered the clubs to resume playing without having resolved the funding issue that prompted the suspension of fixtures in the first place. If the vote is to halt the season then everyone will have wasted a shedload more money playing another 4 weeks of fixtures that count for nothing.

Deducting points is an irrelevance unless you still believe we're competing for promotion, or that the leagues below will resume playing and someone will be relegated from our division.

Of course there remains the possibility that the National League may find an argument for expelling us, but personally I care less and less about this the longer the whole saga drags on.

The folly of allowing the season to begin behind closed doors becomes more grotesque by the week. I believe the National League's prime motivation to complete the season is to provide promotion candidates for the Football League. The likes of us are largely irrelevant, although we're probably becoming an increasing irritation to them by publicly challenging them and drawing attention to their serial ineptitude.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 12, 2021)

bkbk said:


> Wouldn't even bother replying to those clowns at the League



Concord have done exactly that, informing the league they won't reply. They also accuse the league of a breach of duty of care and say the fact they have deposited paperwork showing them to be close to insolvency is just cause.

It's  difficult to see this being sorted without mass resignations. Will it be league officials or clubs though?


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 12, 2021)

Hampton & Richmond are voting null + void. They’ve just tweeted it.


----------



## Paula_G (Feb 12, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> Hampton & Richmond are voting null + void. They’ve just tweeted it.


So where does that leave Hampton’s Richard Parsons who sits on the League’s Board of Management? 🤔


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 12, 2021)

Griff_Turnstile said:


> So where does that leave Hampton’s Richard Parsons who sits on the League’s Board of Management? 🤔


Perhaps he’s going to be joining the “resignation club”?


----------



## NPDHFC (Feb 12, 2021)

Or maybe he launches his own splinter league, The Richard Parsons Project?


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 12, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> Hampton & Richmond are voting null + void. They’ve just tweeted it.







__





						StackPath
					





					www.hamptonfc.net


----------



## EDC (Feb 12, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The folly of allowing the season to begin behind closed doors becomes more grotesque by the week. I believe the National League's prime motivation to complete the season is to provide promotion candidates for the Football League. The likes of us are largely irrelevant, although we're probably becoming an increasing irritation to them by publicly challenging them and drawing attention to their serial ineptitude.



I'm sure the reason was to not lose money from BT Sport.


----------



## pettyboy (Feb 12, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> Hampton & Richmond are voting null + void. They’ve just tweeted it.


A welcome decision, but strange that they played on Tuesday night. Anyway - better late than never I suppose


----------



## Nivag (Feb 12, 2021)

NPDHFC said:


> Or maybe he launches his own splinter league, The Richard Parsons Project?


If enough teams leave, then maybe the FA will have to consider that as an option.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2021)

From Slough:



> We are disappointed that
> The National League
> has found it necessary to charge us for not fulfilling fixtures at the present time.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 12, 2021)

EDC said:


> I'm sure the reason was to not lose money from BT Sport.


Possibly, but I think there's also a perceived loss of face if they're unable to provide promotion candidates to the Football League. I've also heard it said that the Football League might use that as an excuse to cut the number of promotion and relegation places in future. Let's face it, there should already be 4 up / 4 down, thesame as it is between the bottom two divisions of the Football League.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 12, 2021)

Maidstone have furloughed their players. If the league plays on they will look to field unpaid non contract and loan players.





__





						Statement from Maidstone United - Maidstone United FC
					

With the notable exceptions of Bury and Macclesfield Town, very few clubs and their supporters will understand the devastating impact of when a football club goes out of business. Maidstone United were in that position in 1992. It is not a position the current owners will allow on their watch...




					www.maidstoneunited.co.uk


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 12, 2021)




----------



## StephenMac (Feb 12, 2021)

PartisanDulwich said:


> View attachment 254062


Seems like an important moment. And entirely humiliating for the absurd league board.


----------



## KentyinWeardale (Feb 12, 2021)

An update from twohundredpercent in which you get an honourable mention

The National League: Spiralling Out of Control | Twohundredpercent


----------



## Nivag (Feb 13, 2021)

The national press are picking up the story


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 13, 2021)

Hereford are the latest team to vote null and void.


----------



## JoeBoy1959 (Feb 13, 2021)

Over all 3 NL leagues, there are only a handful of matches today. 
Looks like clubs are voting by not playing.


----------



## baleboy_93 (Feb 13, 2021)

JoeBoy1959 said:


> Over all 3 NL leagues, there are only a handful of matches today.
> Looks like clubs are voting by not playing.


Partly agree with this but also think the weather may have played a role as well, lots of frozen pitches about!


----------



## Roger D (Feb 13, 2021)

Tonbridge furlough players and are looking for a new squad to play on if required. Presumably playing for free though that isn't stated.









						Angels furlough 1st team squad - Tonbridge Angels FC
					

Players being recruited to fulfil fixtures




					www.tonbridgeangels.co.uk


----------



## Roger D (Feb 13, 2021)

Dover have now furloughed their squad and won't play on until funding is sorted.





__





						CLUB STATEMENT – DOVER ATHLETIC FC
					






					www.doverathletic.com


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 14, 2021)

With my military history hat on and encouraged by Noss of this parish, we’ve been comparing the NLS teams into “Axis, Vichy, Allies” categories, so we’ve come up with so far:

Axis:
Chelmsford
Dartford
Dorking
Ebbsfleet
Havant
Hemel
Hungerford
Oxford 
St Albans

Potential Vichy:
Billericay
Concord
Tonbridge

Unsure
Welling

The rest, including us are firmly in the Allied camp I think.

I haven’t researched the NLN fully but with the obvious dishonourable exception of Gloucester, most of them seem to be on the Allied side.

Obviously, any corrections welcomed.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 14, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> With my military history hat on and encouraged by Noss of this parish, we’ve been comparing the NLS teams into “Axis, Vichy, Allies” categories, so we’ve come up with so far:
> 
> Axis:
> Chelmsford
> ...


Welling are definitely Axis, unless they've done an Italy and changed sides in the last day or two. They played yesterday and lost 5-0 to remain bottom of the table, so if the season finishes they could find themselves swinging from a lamppost.


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 14, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Welling are definitely Axis, unless they've done an Italy and changed sides in the last day or two. They played yesterday and lost 5-0 to remain bottom of the table, so if the season finishes they could find themselves swinging from a lamppost.


I stand corrected!


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 14, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> With my military history hat on and encouraged by Noss of this parish, we’ve been comparing the NLS teams into “Axis, Vichy, Allies” categories, so we’ve come up with so far:
> 
> Axis:
> Chelmsford
> ...


Concord were Vichy who didn't get the promotion they'd been promised and so switched sides. Not to be trusted.


----------



## Noss (Feb 14, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> With my military history hat on and encouraged by Noss of this parish, we’ve been comparing the NLS teams into “Axis, Vichy, Allies” categories, so we’ve come up with so far:
> 
> Axis:
> Chelmsford
> ...



I think we can add Oxford City into the Axis camp, although they are pretty silent about the whole affair, they are gleefully playing on and are giddy with excitement about their league position.

Their Twitter feed is littered with low budget adverts, like listening to Capital in the 70s, e.g.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 14, 2021)

Defend Stalingrad and towards a Second Front


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 14, 2021)

Noss said:


> I think we can add Oxford City into the Axis camp, although they are pretty silent about the whole affair, they are gleefully playing on and are giddy with excitement about their league position.
> 
> Their Twitter feed is littered with low budget adverts, like listening to Capital in the 70s, e.g.



Sorry, I meant to include Oxford. I’ll edit to add them.


----------



## Cyclodunc (Feb 14, 2021)

Bit weird


----------



## EDC (Feb 14, 2021)

Love the way this thread is going.


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 14, 2021)

Cyclodunc said:


> Bit weird


You should know me by now!


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 15, 2021)

Cyclodunc said:


> Bit weird


Pandemics seem to be like that, from what I can tell.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 15, 2021)

Darlington are not fulfilling their fixture on Tuesday and have given the league both barrels in an impressive statement.









						Statement from the Board of Directors of Darlington FC - News
					

Statement from the Board of Directors of Darlington FC - News



					darlingtonfc.co.uk


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 15, 2021)

Darlington the latest NL team who won’t play any further.  Sorry, just noticed Roger’s post covering the same.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 15, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Darlington are not fulfilling their fixture on Tuesday and have given the league both barrels in an impressive statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a fairly damning indictment of the League Management Committee:

_"At the start of the season, in a letter to all clubs from the National League, we were informed that each club would receive “compensation for lost net gate revenue each month for the period that clubs are prevented from admitting supporters”._

So they clearly misled clubs to believe grant money sustained for as many months as needed until supporters were allowed back.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 15, 2021)

Southport have packed up for the foreseeable future.









						Statement - Curzon (A) | Southport Football Club
					

Southport Football Club, in agreement with Curzon Ashton, will not be fulfilling tomorrow evening’s fixture




					southportfc.net


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 16, 2021)

Marc White of Dorking now calling clubs refusing to play 'emotional' and 'childish'. What a guy.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 16, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Marc White of Dorking now calling clubs refusing to play 'emotional' and 'childish'. What a guy.


As far as I can tell he and other like minded managers and clubs have got what they wanted at almost every turn since the pandemic started. It's down to their pushy cavalier approach that clubs like ours (who are anything but emotional) have been strung along and made to go with the flow, and we've all ended up in a colossal mess presided over by the hopeless group of people managing the National League.

White wanted to decide last season on PPG, even though only 75-80% of fixtures had been completed.

White pushed to be designated as "elite" so his club could contest play-offs when non-elite football wasn't allowed to take place.

Then, when elite sports still weren't allowed spectators by October, he was in the vanguard of those pushing to play behind closed doors. (Who cares whether supporters can attend the matches as long as he gets to continue living out his fantasy of chasing more and more promotions with his club?) Hence the League Management Committee negotiated the half-baked funding package and crossed their fingers that we'd be back to normal before it all unravelled.

Without those decisions going his way we'd have started this season with grounds at 30% capacity, like the leagues below, then we'd have had to stop playing in November like they did. That would have been disappointing, of course, but it would surely have been preferable to the situation we currently have.


----------



## bkbk (Feb 16, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Marc White of Dorking now calling clubs refusing to play 'emotional' and 'childish'. What a guy.



Childish is a bit rich from a man in his late 40s who wont be seen without a baseball cap on.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 16, 2021)

bkbk said:


> Childish is a bit rich from a man in his late 40s who wont be seen without a baseball cap on.


As a man in his late 40s who wears a baseball cap to football I feel attacked. Attacked! And now I feel forced into defending him by mentioning he was actually hat-less in this particular interview.

Gah!


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 16, 2021)

Dorking Wanderers founder, owner and manager Marc White: 'This place is about the people - no fans is just a nightmare

 Club founder Marc White is excited about the future of Dorking Wanderers and insists “sustainability has priority over promotion”


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 16, 2021)

PartisanDulwich said:


> Dorking Wanderers founder, owner and manager Marc White: 'This place is about the people - no fans is just a nightmare
> 
> Club founder Marc White is excited about the future of Dorking Wanderers and insists “sustainability has priority over promotion”


I listened to a podcast sort of thing the other day where the panel was White, Steve King from Dartford, Paul Doswell from Havant and Patrick Chambers from Hungerford (don't shoot me, lockdown does weird stuff to people). 

They all ranted and raved about the current situation, all from the perspective of wanting to continue, but I think it was around 86 minutes into a 90 minute programme that supporters were mentioned for the first and only time. All very transparent.


----------



## bkbk (Feb 16, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> As a man in his late 40s who wears a baseball cap to football I feel attacked. Attacked! And now I feel forced into defending him by mentioning he was actually hat-less in this particular interview.
> 
> Gah!



I take it all back.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 16, 2021)

bkbk said:


> I take it all back.


Ah, go on then, you're forgiven.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 16, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> I listened to a podcast sort of thing the other day where the panel was White, Steve King from Dartford, Paul Doswell from Havant and Patrick Chambers from Hungerford (don't shoot me, lockdown does weird stuff to people).
> 
> They all ranted and raved about the current situation, all from the perspective of wanting to continue, but I think it was around 86 minutes into a 90 minute programme that supporters were mentioned for the first and only time. All very transparent.


That's three managers and clubs who pushed for elite status so they could compete for promotion in the play offs last year, plus the biggest beneficiaries of the funding fiasco. As I said earlier, these are the people who've been setting the agenda and getting their way ever since last season was interrupted, and it's resulted in one problem after another for all of us. Now it's time for other clubs' voices to be listened to and acted upon instead.

I doubt Hungerford take £90k in gate receipts in an entire season, so they've already had a nice bonus for the lottery funding. They would probably have been relegated last year, they avoided relegation by a whisker the previous year but now they're in the running for a play off place, so it's easy to see why they wish to continue.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 16, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> That's three managers and clubs who pushed for elite status so they could compete for promotion in the play offs last year, plus the biggest beneficiaries of the funding fiasco. As I said earlier, these are the people who've been setting the agenda and getting their way ever since last season was interrupted, and it's resulted in one problem after another for all of us. Now it's time for other clubs' voices to be listened to and acted upon instead.
> 
> I doubt Hungerford take £90k in gate receipts in an entire season, so they've already had a nice bonus for the lottery funding. They would probably have been relegated last year, they avoided relegation by a whisker the previous year but now they're in the running for a play off place, so it's easy to see why they wish to continue.


Indeed. The complete lack of balance was noted. Hungerford Chairman claimed their weekly playing budget was £2k last season. He then said they'd reduced it by 40% this season before going on to say they were lucky that they still have a little of the £90k lottery money left. The maths suggests that he's talking complete bollocks. 

King was actually the most honest of the four in that he admitted he'd have no interest in continuing if they weren't up the right end of the table.

Doswell had a completely odd take on all of it given that his chairman, the chairman's wife and his kitman were at death's door a month or so ago. Apparently Covid is no longer an issue because they got better again. 

And White talked a lot. Some sensible stuff, some much less so. But boy, did he talk. Will be interesting to see what happens when they inevitably get promoted, whenever that may be. Presumably they'll just be a less well-resourced Boreham Wood and where's the point in that?


----------



## Roger D (Feb 17, 2021)

Chester have now ceased playing with immediate effect. They will reconsider once the result of the votes are known.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 17, 2021)

Marc White (Dorking Wanderers) has said he anticipates a null and void vote. He has taken legal advice and is threatening legal  action if this happens.

Just another day in the paradise that is the Conference.


----------



## Nivag (Feb 17, 2021)

Wasn't the Dorking manager the one that had a tantrum while we was at


Roger D said:


> Marc White (Dorking Wanderers) has said he anticipates a null and void vote. He has taken legal advice and is threatening legal  action if this happens.
> 
> Just another day in the paradise that is the Conference.


I hope there aren't any cups of tea around he can throw if it doesn't go his way.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 17, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Marc White (Dorking Wanderers) has said he anticipates a null and void vote. He has taken legal advice and is threatening legal  action if this happens.
> 
> Just another day in the paradise that is the Conference.


Let him spaff a dozen Jason Priors on legal costs.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 17, 2021)

Unfortunately the league's costs are likely to come from the member clubs. Obviously if they win they may well get a costs order but bills are likely to have to be met before that. If they lose, it would potentially be a big issue for the league's member clubs


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 17, 2021)

All the more reason not to be in it.


----------



## Roger D (Feb 17, 2021)

Should say I suspect it won't happen. The courts are generally reluctant to get involved in such disputes, believing it is one for football authorities.

Secondly if I am right and member clubs are potentially on the hook for funding any action, his erstwhile allies will soon be pressuring him to back down.

It looks suspiciously like sabre rattling to try and scare the league into trying to find a compromise and  enact his preferred solution and to send a message to any clubs yet to vote.

The board may be inept but they knew this would be controversial and surely they got the plan of action read by a solicitor before proceeding...

Edited to say, Marc seems to be threatening action not legal action. Could he be looking at a sports arbitration route? The cost implications would probably remain.


----------



## StephenMac (Feb 17, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Should say I suspect it won't happen. The courts are generally reluctant to get involved in such disputes, believing it is one for football authorities.
> 
> Secondly if I am right and member clubs are potentially on the hook for funding any action, his erstwhile allies will soon be pressuring him to back down.
> 
> ...


He may not have said legal action today but he has in recent weeks. Like you though, I think it's most likely a rather unsubtle bluff.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 18, 2021)

so Trump esq - wait until he books four seasons total landscaping car park for a press conference for his crack legal team
same bluster - same delusions - same result


----------



## EDC (Feb 18, 2021)

He's certainly acting a bit like the club crest.


----------



## EDC (Feb 18, 2021)

Season over.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 18, 2021)

EDC said:


> Season over.


----------



## AveryDave (Feb 18, 2021)

Given the way the League manufactured the process it's thankfully the right outcome for us - and I can only imagine they are delighted that they've been able to cut the North and South loose so they can concentrate on their main interests for the remainder of the season.

Can also understand, to an extent, why some North and South clubs will feel hard done by - but from what I've been able to keep track of, even those with a business model that can tolerate the current circumstances haven't been able to put together a credible argument around the safety of their players and staff in carrying on, so can't feel too bad for them.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Feb 18, 2021)




----------



## StephenMac (Feb 18, 2021)

It's Marc White's cameraman I feel sorry for. The amount of bollocks he's going to have to listen to over the coming days.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 18, 2021)

I did enjoy this Twitter message:


----------



## Cat Daisy (Feb 18, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> Given the way the League manufactured the process it's thankfully the right outcome for us - and I can only imagine they are delighted that they've been able to cut the North and South loose so they can concentrate on their main interests for the remainder of the season.
> 
> Can also understand, to an extent, why some North and South clubs will feel hard done by - but from what I've been able to keep track of, even those with a business model that can tolerate the current circumstances haven't been able to put together a credible argument around the safety of their players and staff in carrying on, so can't feel too bad for them.



No sympathy for the 12 NLS clubs who tried to game the system on resolution 1 to deny their peers a vote on their own division. Those 12 are clouded by delusions of grandeur that they are "elite" clubs - hope that and the loans don't come back to bite them later on! (But at least the only sensible decision on resolution 3 was reached in the end.)


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 18, 2021)

From the Southwark News:









						Dulwich Hamlet manager fully backs the board as fixture row continues - Southwark News
					

'We don’t shy away from challenges and obstacles - this won’t deter us from fighting on'




					www.southwarknews.co.uk


----------



## Blitzwalker (Feb 18, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> It's Marc White's cameraman I feel sorry for. The amount of bollocks he's going to have to listen to over the coming days.


Dorking fans seriously losing it on Twitter tonight and their club RT-ing all manner of tweets talking about corruption in the league. All hilarious stuff which has made any vestige of sympathy from me evaporate.

Null + Void is the correct and responsible thing to do. There are more important things to worry about in the world right now than pandering to football clubs and owners with delusions of grandeur.


----------



## bkbk (Feb 18, 2021)

Could be box office


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 18, 2021)

A couple of Eastbourne Borough supporters are throwing tantrums on the National North and South Facebook page. I hope it was one ofthem who contacted the Metropolitan Police to complain about us having a crowd in for the one match when we were allowed supporters.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 18, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> Null + Void is the correct and responsible thing to do. There are more important things to worry about in the world right now than pandering to football clubs and owners with delusions of grandeur.


The season should never have started behind closed doors in the first place. I think the clubs who pushed for this to happen have treated their own supporters with contempt. What is the actual point in playing all these matches that loyal supporters are not allowed to attend? It's not the Premier League with a massive global audience following from afar, with a huge commercial appeal. The club owners who pushed for this to happen have been completely delusional. I can only assume they don't really care whether or not their supporters turn up when the gates reopen.


----------



## tonysingh (Feb 18, 2021)

So is Marc White our new Glenn Tamplin then?


----------



## pinknblue (Feb 18, 2021)

Blitzwalker said:


> Dorking fans seriously losing it on Twitter tonight and their club RT-ing all manner of tweets talking about corruption in the league. All hilarious stuff which has made any vestige of sympathy from me evaporate.
> 
> Null + Void is the correct and responsible thing to do. There are more important things to worry about in the world right now than pandering to football clubs and owners with delusions of grandeur.



Seems to me there's plenty of corruption in this league; just not where those guys think it is.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 19, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> So is Marc White our new Glenn Tamplin then?


More like Glenn Toupée. I think that's why he always wears that cap.


----------



## tonysingh (Feb 19, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> More like Glenn Toupée. I think that's why he always wears that cap.



I feel like you should be the last person to mock someone else's barnet, or lack thereof.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 19, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> I feel like you should be the last person to mock someone else's barnet, or lack thereof.


He's got a barnet alright, I'm just not entirely sure whose it is.


----------



## Pink Panther (Feb 19, 2021)

Another classic Twitter message replying to Ollie Bayliss. (And some people think Blitz goes too far with his WW2 analogies!)


----------



## blueheaven (Feb 19, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The season should never have started behind closed doors in the first place. I think the clubs who pushed for this to happen have treated their own supporters with contempt. What is the actual point in playing all these matches that loyal supporters are not allowed to attend? It's not the Premier League with a massive global audience following from afar, with a huge commercial appeal. The club owners who pushed for this to happen have been completely delusional. I can only assume they don't really care whether or not their supporters turn up when the gates reopen.



I can't help but wonder how much money has been wasted across the two divisions in needlessly starting a season that couldn't be finished.


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## EDC (Feb 19, 2021)

I think the whining may have started, might have been a plane flying over but unlikely.


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

Gloucester City have launched legal action to try and ensure promotion/relegation occurs.


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

Interestingly Marc White is saying the league did not deliver the promised Covid testing kits to tier two. He believes this was due to them not wanting to spend money given the likely abandonment shortly afterwards.

Given Gateshead specifically cited not wanting to spend money travelling etc when the season was likely to be abandoned as their reason for not fulfilling a fixture, the result of their charge could be interesting l.


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## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Gloucester City have launched legal action to try and ensure promotion/relegation occurs.


It's all getting a bit tacky, isn't it?


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## Pink Panther (Feb 19, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Interestingly Marc White is saying the league did not deliver the promised Covid testing kits to tier two. He believes this was due to them not wanting to spend money given the likely abandonment shortly afterwards.
> 
> Given Gateshead specifically cited not wanting to spend money travelling etc when the season was likely to be abandoned as their reason for not fulfilling a fixture, the result of their charge could be interesting l.


Yet again White displays a staggering lack of insight, completely missing the point that many other clubs can't fund several more months of playing behind closed doors regardless of whether or not regular testing for players is in place. It's all about Marc White FC every time. (Has anyone noticed that we never seem to hear from anyone else within the club? His name and Dorking Wanderers appear to be totally synonymous.)

I understand this is the legal firm they are consulting. They were the club's main shirt sponsor for several years. I wonder whether this means the club is funded by Bitcoin trading?









						Litigation Solicitors London | Bitcoin, Fintech & Commercial Litigation Lawyers | Selachii
					

Bitcoin, Fintech & Commercial Litigation Lawyers in London. Selachii are London’s fastest growing boutique litigation firm. Proactive, tenacious litigation solicitors delivering you the best outcome & best advice for you.




					www.selachii.com


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

To be fair to Marc, that's not the point he was making. Someone asked whether it was true the testing had not been received. He confirmed it was, from memory he added he saw this as the league viewing tier 2 as irrelevant.

The Dorking campaign seems to be for clubs to be given a choice of whether or not to play on, with promotion available to those who play on, and no recriminations for those who sit the rest of the season out. 

In the Q&A he specifically acknowledged not all clubs can afford to play on.

I'm not his biggest fan over recent events but it's only fair to ensure his views are recorded correctly.


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## pinknblue (Feb 19, 2021)

I have the feeling that some clubs' problems are only just beginning! I can't see the null and void being overturned for N&S but the 7 NL sides that voted that way will now have to play the rest of the season - whenever that might end, if ever - or face more charges from the NL board. I sincerely hope the 7 clubs band together and all refuse to play as I don't think the NL will relegate all 7!! However, I expect some will change their minds in a bid to avoid sanctions, which will increase the pressure on the remaining dissenters. I'd hate to see any clubs go to the wall as a result of the NL playing on, but I fear some will.

With regard to Dorking, I just don't understand why Marc White is saying that they'll need to make redundancies as a result of the null and void. Surely, if they could afford to play on with no funding - and with higher costs - they can afford to keep the backroom staff if they use the furlough system sensibly?


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## pinknblue (Feb 19, 2021)

Roger D said:


> To be fair to Marc, that's not the point he was making. Someone asked whether it was true the testing had not been received. He confirmed it was, from memory he added he saw this as the league viewing tier 2 as irrelevant.
> 
> The Dorking campaign seems to be for clubs to be given a choice of whether or not to play on, with promotion available to those who play on, and no recriminations for those who sit the rest of the season out.
> 
> ...



Marc does make some sensible points and I genuinely think he doesn't want other clubs to suffer. However, his unbridled ambition tends to give him massive 'blind spots'. He sees the null and void as 'catastrophic' as it spoils Dorking's chance of promotion and he tends to catastrophise anything that stunts his ambition. The only really catastrophic thing here would be senior non-league clubs with over 100 years of history going out of existence. Marc needs to take a step back and get bit of perspective.


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## StephenMac (Feb 19, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> Marc does make some sensible points and I genuinely think he doesn't want other clubs to suffer. However, his unbridled ambition tends to give him massive 'blind spots'. He sees the null and void as 'catastrophic' as it spoils Dorking's chance of promotion and he tends to catastrophise anything that stunts his ambition. The only really catastrophic thing here would be senior non-league clubs with over 100 years of history going out of existence. Marc needs to take a step back and get bit of perspective.


Absolutely right. Much of what he's said makes sense but he's thrown a few hand grenades as well and only belatedly seems to have realised that other clubs can see his many broadcasts to the nation. He's had all the sympathy he deserves but ultimately he's a spoilt brat whose tantrums have worn very thin. 

He seemed fond of saying "It is what it is" about both the grant shambles and the league restarting without any funding. Well, NLS is null and void, Marc, and it is what it is.


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## StephenMac (Feb 19, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> I have the feeling that some clubs' problems are only just beginning! I can't see the null and void being overturned for N&S but the 7 NL sides that voted that way will now have to play the rest of the season - whenever that might end, if ever - or face more charges from the NL board. I sincerely hope the 7 clubs band together and all refuse to play as I don't think the NL will relegate all 7!! However, I expect some will change their minds in a bid to avoid sanctions, which will increase the pressure on the remaining dissenters. I'd hate to see any clubs go to the wall as a result of the NL playing on, but I fear some will.
> 
> With regard to Dorking, I just don't understand why Marc White is saying that they'll need to make redundancies as a result of the null and void. Surely, if they could afford to play on with no funding - and with higher costs - they can afford to keep the backroom staff if they use the furlough system sensibly?


White will say whatever he feels the need to say. Not sure he sees truthfulness as a significant criteria.


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

King's Lynn are playing two more games and then giving up if funding isn't sorted.









						'Two more games and then we close' - Linnets owner
					

King’s Lynn Town look set to lock the gates at The Walks after next week’s two home matches.




					www.edp24.co.uk
				




Edited to say that whilst the club's opinion may well be the same as cited above,the formal statement is less clear cut.









						Club statement - King's Lynn Town FC
					

The club has the following update for it’s supporters following last evening’s announcement from the National League that the season is to continue after a majority of clubs voted against a proposal to end the season in light of the ongoing consequences caused by the Coronavirus Pandemic. We are...



					www.kltown.co.uk


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## sleaterkinney (Feb 19, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> Absolutely right. Much of what he's said makes sense but he's thrown a few hand grenades as well and only belatedly seems to have realised that other clubs can see his many broadcasts to the nation. He's had all the sympathy he deserves but ultimately he's a spoilt brat whose tantrums have worn very thin.
> 
> He seemed fond of saying "It is what it is" about both the grant shambles and the league restarting without any funding. Well, NLS is null and void, Marc, and it is what it is.


We are where we are.


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> With regard to Dorking, I just don't understand why Marc White is saying that they'll need to make redundancies as a result of the null and void. Surely, if they could afford to play on with no funding - and with higher costs - they can afford to keep the backroom staff if they use the furlough system sensibly?



His argument seems to be that they will have to refund sponsors or offer them reductions for 21/22. He states the latter will leave a hole in the 21/22 budget. He doesn't really comment on the former but the suspicion must be they have already spent a lot of that money and don't fancy refunding it.

There may also be issues with league distributions as I guess BT Sport will either want a free extension or money back. The likes of Vanarama will probably feel the same.

Whilst I agree it's likely to be a lot cheaper for most teams to furlough and take these hits, stopping will also incur both direct and indirect costs. 

If Dorking really do raise £700k per season from sponsors, as I seem to remember being cited on this forum, the potential for trouble if they have to part refund or offer reduced rates next season is clear. That would probably make them a pretty unique case and I would have a bit of sympathy. Clubs shouldn't be punished financially for having big gates, as we were. Equally they shouldn't be punished for having a commercial set up that seems to leave the rest of the division standing


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## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Yet again White displays a staggering lack of insight, completely missing the point that many other clubs can't fund several more months of playing behind closed doors regardless of whether or not regular testing for players is in place. It's all about Marc White FC every time. (Has anyone noticed that we never seem to hear from anyone else within the club? His name and Dorking Wanderers appear to be totally synonymous.)
> 
> I understand this is the legal firm they are consulting. They were the club's main shirt sponsor for several years. I wonder whether this means the club is funded by Bitcoin trading?
> 
> ...


"Boutique litigation firm"


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## Nivag (Feb 19, 2021)

I'd imagine they are selling their worth based on the success they've been having and if this season doesn't fulfill that they probably think they won't get the same funding going forward.


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## PartisanDulwich (Feb 19, 2021)

A minor point ....but
"Marc White is saying the league did not deliver the promised Covid testing kits to tier two. He believes this was due to them not wanting to spend money given the likely abandonment shortly afterwards."

The Lateral Flow Tests have been condemn and abandoned by anyone with any knowledge  - the BMJ pointed out that Lateral flow tests missed over half of cases - imagine the impact that would have had on players and potential dangers to them and their families 

And just for historical accuracy - The Germans did invade the British Isles during WW2 - the Channel Islands and they don't speak German (That said the small but brave Jersey Resistance movement was made up of the local trade union branch and other progressives)


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## KentyinWeardale (Feb 19, 2021)

twohundredpercents take on events

The National League: Divided, But Decided | Twohundredpercent


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

Whilst I agree lateral flow tests are sub-optimal, I know someone in a caring role tested three times a week that way  (Or at least was until very recently and I believe still is.)

The logic is/was that's the best weapon available to them and, whilst it will miss positive cases, it will also catch some and that's better than not testing. I suspect the league worked on similar logic.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 19, 2021)

Roger D said:


> His argument seems to be that they will have to refund sponsors or offer them reductions for 21/22. He states the latter will leave a hole in the 21/22 budget. He doesn't really comment on the former but the suspicion must be they have already spent a lot of that money and don't fancy refunding it.
> 
> There may also be issues with league distributions as I guess BT Sport will either want a free extension or money back. The likes of Vanarama will probably feel the same.
> 
> ...


Frankly I don't have any sympathy for that argument, or those clubs. The season should never have started behind closed doors, then they could have just rolled their sponsorship deals over to next season. If we're going to accept that, we're accepting that big money owners and sponsors, too impatient to wait another season to challenge for promotion, are going to call the shots. What about supporters? I was bloody furious that matches were being played that I wasn't allowed to attend. Supporters were treated with contempt by the likes of White and it must not be allowed to happen again. It started last season with deciding final positions on points per game, followed by the play-offs behind closed doors. Last season should have been null and void and this season should never have started. Otherwise it's just fantasy football for the wealthy minority.


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## Roger D (Feb 19, 2021)

This league is a rich man's plaything. According to Keiran Maguire only 16 Conference teams returned a profit last year. Many lost over a million, substantial numbers lost six figures. Dorking declared a break even position.

It always has been thus. I first watched the Conference in 1979 (Telford and Stafford.) Back then it was the likes of Altrincham, Noel White and Peter Swales both spent time there.

Marc is doing what he believes is right for Dorking, quite rightly. That's what we expected Ben etc to do for Hamlet

I believe Marc is fast turning into a 'useful idiot' the truly guilty will hide behind.

The FA- non League should not have started this year without agreed positions, if we abandon with x% or fewer games played we do Y etc

The League Board. See above plus the failure to confirm funding post December. Also Marc asked for elite status, it was the Board who pushed for it. Marc asked for the season to start, it was the board who ordered it. It was the board who stuffed the funding formula up and made post December funding politically toxic. It is the board who preside over a ludicrously weighted voting system.

The ditector loan clubs - the people investing in Dorking, if this £700k is true, seemingly do so by writing off money. Fine, no problems.  Hamlet did the same whilst in exile,albeit  shares not advertising. Another club in the league currently wanting to play on appear to have confirmed a director loan if £300k last year.  How big will the loan be this year? What happens if it ever gets called in? I far prefer the Dorking method yet no-one is calling out this club.

My sympathy will start to vanish if they do take legal action.

If / when steps 3-6 are cancelled next week I would have no issue in those who want to play on doing so in a mini league. Doing so would create vacancies at tier two next season. Dover and King's Lynn could well be thrown out of the league as it stands and potentially end up on tier five. Let those who want to play on and create tier two vacancies to help tier one clubs who can't play on.


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## AveryDave (Feb 20, 2021)

If we laud our board for doing what’s right for our club, and we absolutely do, it’s hard to fault others for trying to do what’s right for theirs. Which ignores the obvious moral question around safety, but it’s equally not a surprise that decisions are being made on the economics of the situation. Certainly disappointing but not surprising.

The accountability sits squarely at the door of the League, who it seems to me are now purely in protection mode. They’ve made a series of serious errors, mainly around promises and assurances made on which material decisions have been based, which have led to a large number of their member clubs being disadvantaged to some extent, and you can only imagine that their commercial stakeholders are likewise not getting what they thought they were paying for.

They likely anticipate legal action from all angles, from breach of contract claims, to allegations of misrepresentation and fraud, to negligence, and I’d expect every decision they make to be designed purely to protect them against that. Getting clubs to fight amongst themselves must be a key part of their strategy.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 20, 2021)

Roger D said:


> This league is a rich man's plaything. According to Keiran Maguire only 16 Conference teams returned a profit last year. Many lost over a million, substantial numbers lost six figures. Dorking declared a break even position.
> 
> It always has been thus. I first watched the Conference in 1979 (Telford and Stafford.) Back then it was the likes of Altrincham, Noel White and Peter Swales both spent time there.


Much like the leagues above it then. I've come to think of the different leagues as immature alpha males on a boozy night out. The Premier League is knocking back the pints, the Football League is eager to keep up and get another round in, the National League is lagging behind but doesn't want to quit and go home because the others will see that as a sign of weakness. They won't get invited next time if they don't complete the season and provide a couple of new clubs. There seems to be a lot of peer pressure involved and the level below ours is the highest at which a semblance of objectivity prevails.

This is part of the reason why there should be four up to the Football League. Clubs can finish in the top three of the National Division several times without going up, whereas the top three in the division above all go up every year. There's a bottleneck of impatient and ambitious clubs at National Division



Roger D said:


> Marc is doing what he believes is right for Dorking, quite rightly. That's what we expected Ben etc to do for Hamlet
> 
> I believe Marc is fast turning into a 'useful idiot' the truly guilty will hide behind.


I suppose he is, it's just irritating that everything he says and does seems to be broadcast to the entire league. It can get a bit tiresome. He's pretty much in a category of his own, having founded his club and brought it this far. I can only think of Tommy South at Purfleet/Thurrock who's done similar, and he was much more old school and reserved with his public profile. As you say, there are probably more dangerous and reckless characters flying under the radar at other clubs while we're all distracted by the latest pronouncements from Dorking.



Roger D said:


> The FA- non League should not have started this year without agreed positions, if we abandon with x% or fewer games played we do Y etc
> 
> The League Board. See above plus the failure to confirm funding post December. Also Marc asked for elite status, it was the Board who pushed for it. Marc asked for the season to start, it was the board who ordered it. It was the board who stuffed the funding formula up and made post December funding politically toxic. It is the board who preside over a ludicrously weighted voting system.


Yes, it's remarkably convenient for the NL Board if clubs are at loggerheads with each other. Ultimately it's their duty to rein in worst excesses of rogue clubs. No one has been talking about the Bernstein Report recently. This mustn't be allowed to remain hidden. It's clear that the Board is responsible for a whole sequence of decisions, either incompetent or deceitful, for which they need to be held to account. What exactly has league chairman  Brian Barwick OBE been doing recently? On the face of it he's a big hitter with all the right connections, yet he's given the impression of going missing in action during the League's greatest ever crisis.



Roger D said:


> The ditector loan clubs - the people investing in Dorking, if this £700k is true, seemingly do so by writing off money. Fine, no problems.  Hamlet did the same whilst in exile,albeit  shares not advertising. Another club in the league currently wanting to play on appear to have confirmed a director loan if £300k last year.  How big will the loan be this year? What happens if it ever gets called in? I far prefer the Dorking method yet no-one is calling out this club.


I've no idea which club that is. I suspect quite a few clubs could easily be undermined by one or two directors/sponsors pulling the plug, even if the sums involved aren't as large as that. Once again, what is the point if an individual has to spend that sort of money at this level? We've all seen clubs crash and burn when it becomes unsustainable: Kingstonian, Canvey Island, Lewes, Hornchurch, Grays Athletic, Fisher Athletic, Margate, Whitehawk and that's just those in and around London.


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## scousedom (Feb 20, 2021)

Roger D said:


> The FA- non League should not have started this year without agreed positions, if we abandon with x% or fewer games played we do Y etc


This. 
Understandable in 19/20, unforgivable in 20/21. 
And probably unbelievably likely in 21/22.


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## Paula_G (Feb 21, 2021)

scousedom said:


> This.
> Understandable in 19/20, unforgivable in 20/21.
> And probably unbelievably likely in 21/22.


This time last year I spent quite a few trawling through various leagues to see if I could find just one that had provisions for the non-completion of the season. Did find one..  Rather surprised given that some of those leagues went back to before not just the last World War but the the one before, had existed during previous outbreaks like Foot in Mouth Disease, some pretty awful winters like 1963 and even more recently the wet weather that saw 2000-2001 unfinished. Will have to check whether any league rewrote their rules on the basis of the Null & Void 2019-2020 seasons around the pyramid?


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## KentyinWeardale (Feb 22, 2021)

Latest from twohundredpercent

The National League Season Hits The Fan | Twohundredpercent 

There's also a great article on the late and much missed James Alexander Gordon on the site for those of a certain age


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## Paula_G (Feb 22, 2021)

Well with the Steps being announced today that include the provisional for outdoor adult sports to resume after March 29, it’s going to throw a few cats among the pigeons if any of the league below NLN/S decide to restart... By the way that doesn’t mean I think the club, the directors & the fans have made a wrong decision. In fact it reinforces it.. After all by my reckoning 27 games would have to be fitted in, three times a week (if that even sensible when many players still have other careers) and things might be finished by the middle of June.. Suppose we’ll have to see if the FA have a cunning plan to resolve things in this instance...


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 23, 2021)

Paula_G said:


> Well with the Steps being announced today that include the provisional for outdoor adult sports to resume after March 29, it’s going to throw a few cats among the pigeons if any of the league below NLN/S decide to restart... By the way that doesn’t mean I think the club, the directors & the fans have made a wrong decision. In fact it reinforces it.. After all by my reckoning 27 games would have to be fitted in, three times a week (if that even sensible when many players still have other careers) and things might be finished by the middle of June.. Suppose we’ll have to see if the FA have a cunning plan to resolve things in this instance...
> View attachment 255682



I don't see that changes anything does it? There's no implication there that fans will be allowed in and the actual games were already permitted.


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## scousedom (Feb 23, 2021)

Maybe the solution for 21/22 is to split in two along “self sustaining clubs” and “sugar daddy clubs” lines. If the latter are so keen to play on at all costs, let them have a platform and good riddance. Would be very interesting to see how clubs self-identified if forced to polarise in that way. 
I’m not serious. I don’t think.


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## Roger D (Feb 24, 2021)

As if it's not already mad enough, Shahid Azeem who is cited as the League's Commercial Director is quoted in today's Aldershot News as confirming league members are not allowed to take on the proposed loans.

He still wants to finish the season though


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## Pink Panther (Feb 24, 2021)

Roger D said:


> As if it's not already mad enough, Shahid Azeem who is cited as the League's Commercial Director is quoted in today's Aldershot News as confirming league members are not allowed to take on the proposed loans.
> 
> He still wants to finish the season though


I think we'd all like the season to finish, in much the same way as we'd all like our team to finish top of the table!

I've said right from the start that it was a stupid and totally misguided decision to begin behind closed doors. What's more the League initially told clubs that wouldn't happen, so I would very much like to know the reasoning behind that change of mind. Who exactly made the decision, and why? Because if they'd stuck with the original decision we wouldn't be in this mess now.


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## sleaterkinney (Feb 24, 2021)




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## Paula_G (Feb 24, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


>



Tries to act surprised, fails miserably!


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## Pink Panther (Feb 27, 2021)

Maidstone chairman calls for wholesale replacement of National League Board:









						Stones chief calls on the FA to dismiss the entire board of the National League
					

The season is over for Maidstone United and co-owner Oliver Ash has called for the immediate resignation of the National League board.




					www.kentonline.co.uk


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## Roger D (Feb 27, 2021)

Interesting to see him cite Dorking as one of the helpful teams.


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## Pink Panther (Feb 27, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Interesting to see him cite Dorking as one of the helpful teams.


And Fylde. He's obviously referring to the clubs who were united over the grant funding issue rather than the division between those who wish to complete the season and those who can't afford to. That's a secondary issue arising from earlier poor decisions and mismanagement.

Jim Parmenter being interviewed on Football Focus right now.


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## Roger D (Feb 28, 2021)

Interesting comments from one of the Maidstone United owners, Oliver Ash on Twitter. He's promising to hold both the league and individual directors " who have failed in their statutory duties and has been at the heart of the mismanagement" to account.

He goes on to make it pretty clear that Jim Parmenter is one of those in the line of fire, despite his resignation.


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## pinknblue (Feb 28, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Maidstone chairman calls for wholesale replacement of National League Board:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good! The National League board cannot be allowed to remain in place. They are clearly not fit for purpose and should resign immediately. I'd like to see representatives from community clubs such as Dulwich, Maidstone, Chester, Darlington and Slough replace some of the imcompetents. I have nothing against clubs that have wealthy owners and good business models as we all need to make money. I do have a massive problem with a board that is not representative - and even worse, doesn't understand or care for - a large segments of it's member clubs.


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## PartisanDulwich (Feb 28, 2021)

_"There were actually more clubs in National League South that wanted to play on, voting 12-9 in favour of continuing the season, but in National League North 15 teams wanted to stop the season with seven preferring to carry on playing."_

Terrifying that a majority of Clubs in the South could risk so much for so little - reckless


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## Paula_G (Mar 1, 2021)

PartisanDulwich said:


> _"There were actually more clubs in National League South that wanted to play on, voting 12-9 in favour of continuing the season, but in National League North 15 teams wanted to stop the season with seven preferring to carry on playing."_
> 
> Terrifying that a majority of Clubs in the South could risk so much for so little - reckless


Doesn’t really surprise when one looks at Duncan’s spreadsheet on the so-called “grants” earlier in the season. Under that criteria a majority of clubs in NLS actually benefited from the handout so presumably still had lots of loose cash rattling about whilst in the NLN the reverse was the case so there those funds would either have run dry or be pretty close to being exhausted..


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## Paula_G (Mar 1, 2021)

Just checked the Pompey Dunc spreadsheet and in the NLS (9-12) the grant negative/positive (loss/profit) split was 8-13 whilst in NLN (15-7) it was 13-9. So it would seem very few clubs that profited from the grants voted to null & void the season...


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## pompeydunc (Mar 1, 2021)

Paula_G said:


> Just checked the Pompey Dunc spreadsheet and in the NLS (9-12) the grant negative/positive (loss/profit) split was 8-13 whilst in NLN (15-7) it was 13-9. So it would seem very few clubs that profited from the grants voted to null & void the season...



Would you Adam and Eve it?!


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## Pink Panther (Mar 2, 2021)

Paula_G said:


> Just checked the Pompey Dunc spreadsheet and in the NLS (9-12) the grant negative/positive (loss/profit) split was 8-13 whilst in NLN (15-7) it was 13-9. So it would seem very few clubs that profited from the grants voted to null & void the season...


Havant and Dartford were the biggest losers in the lottery grant scandal after ourselves and Maidstone, and they both wanted to play on. Hampton profited from the grants andwere well placed to contest the play-offs, but after deliberating for longer than most they released a reasoned statement concluding that it simply wasn't viable to continue. 

I can only assume that most clubs wishing to play on, with the possible exception of those who profited enormously from the grant and/or those with the smallest playing budgets, are being generously funded by directors or sponsors. Supporters of these clubs who are bleating about the curtailment of the season are merely useful idiots to their owners, egging them on with half-baked sneering at the clubs who've had enough: you should have budgeted better, you should take out a loan, you should charge for live streaming, your supporters should raise funds by crowdfunding, you shouldn't be in this league if you can't play the matches etc.

What kind of club's directors want to play out a season behind closed doors? What about the supporters? Who wants to chase promotion when no one else is there to enjoy it? I'd be embarrassed to lead a club like that. Those owners and directors can attend the matches every week and play out their private fantasy league while the rank and file are excluded. They make out they're doing everyone else a favour by providing and charging for a live stream to watch remotely but these are non-league matches, they're not meant to be watched on a screen in your living room. A small number of wealthy individuals must be spending a small fortune to make it happen, and virtually no one except themselves is allowed to be there. The biggest worry for me is that a majority of clubs in our division now appear to be in the hands of these people. If they don't need supporters now, they won't need us in the future. It's the thin end of the wedge.


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## StephenMac (Mar 2, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Havant and Dartford were the biggest losers in the lottery grant scandal after ourselves and Maidstone, and they both wanted to play on. Hampton profited from the grants andwere well placed to contest the play-offs, but after deliberating for longer than most they released a reasoned statement concluding that it simply wasn't viable to continue.
> 
> I can only assume that most clubs wishing to play on, with the possible exception of those who profited enormously from the grant and/or those with the smallest playing budgets, are being generously funded by directors or sponsors. Supporters of these clubs who are bleating about the curtailment of the season are merely useful idiots to their owners, egging them on with half-baked sneering at the clubs who've had enough: you should have budgeted better, you should take out a loan, you should charge for live streaming, your supporters should raise funds by crowdfunding, you shouldn't be in this league if you can't play the matches etc.
> 
> What kind of club's directors want to play out a season behind closed doors? What about the supporters? Who wants to chase promotion when no one else is there to enjoy it? I'd be embarrassed to lead a club like that. Those owners and directors can attend the matches every week and play out their private fantasy league while the rank and file are excluded. They make out they're doing everyone else a favour by providing and charging for a live stream to watch remotely but these are non-league matches, they're not meant to be watched on a screen in your living room. A small number of wealthy individuals must be spending a small fortune to make it happen, and virtually no one except themselves is allowed to be there. The biggest worry for me is that a majority of clubs in our division now appear to be in the hands of these people. If they don't need supporters now, they won't need us in the future. It's the thin end of the wedge.


This should be published. Brilliant, and I read it in your voice.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 3, 2021)

A combined single division tier two playing on this season is being proposed. Membership is voluntary. Promotion would be granted at the end of the season. 15-20 clubs have declared interest.

It needs three lots of approval before it can happen.


----------



## pinknblue (Mar 3, 2021)

Roger D said:


> A combined single division tier two playing on this season is being proposed. Membership is voluntary. Promotion would be granted at the end of the season. 15-20 clubs have declared interest.
> 
> It needs three lots of approval before it can happen.



That's mad but let them get on with it if that's what they really want. Seems to me that the football world has lost all semblance of common sense and perspective. I suspect that if it goes ahead that it'll not get finished and they'll probably not plan for how to decide who the winners are in that scenario. I'm pretty sick of the whole thing to be honest. Just way too many selfish people with no consideration for the bigger picture.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 3, 2021)

Concord have confirmed they are out despite pushing to play on / get such a league set up from memory. Financial reality kicking in?

No good for them given they probably have a Trophy final to play in May.


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 3, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> That's mad *but let them get on with it if that's what they really want*. Seems to me that the football world has lost all semblance of common sense and perspective. I suspect that if it goes ahead that it'll not get finished and they'll probably not plan for how to decide who the winners are in that scenario. I'm pretty sick of the whole thing to be honest. Just way too many selfish people with no consideration for the bigger picture.


That was my first thought when Marc White began suggesting this comprise few weeks ago. What harm can it do? Let them get on with it, if it keeps them happy. 

However, you can never appease these sort of people for long. What will they demand next? What if supporters are still not allowed back by August? They'll be demanding to start another season behind closed doors, because it happened this time, and clubs without a sugar daddy or big money sponsors will be excluded again. Well supported clubs like ourselves and Maidstone should not be left out in the cold while a minority of other clubs, prepared to find money by any means necessary, compete for promotion. That's not how leagues work. 

I'm still baffled by how so many of the National Division clubs seem to be finding the money to play on. Most of the players at that level are professionals, I can't believe they're all turning out for fifty quid a week just because they like playing. And what about the lower divisions of the Football League? Where exactly is all the money coming from when a lot of these clubs would pull an aggregate attendance of about 100,000 a season through the turnstiles? Some of these clubs must have a shortfall of well over £1,000,000 compared to a normal season. Just how are they covering it, and what sort of rules might they be breaking along the way?

In recent seasons there have occasionally been postponements of Premier League matches because adverse weather conditions made it unsafe for large crowds of supporters to travel and attend, even though the pitch was perfectly playable. How is that different to the current situation? If it isn't safe for supporters to attend the matches, don't play the bloody matches. That should be set in stone. Football should *not* be played behind closed doors.


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## PartisanDulwich (Mar 3, 2021)

Surely, non league football outside former League teams and the odd local businessman, is primarily, based on huge voluntary efforts on match day, fund raising behind the scenes, and arguably not paying players what they should for their labour,. For many Clubs it really is a season to season existence and sometimes a big doze of "creative accounting". While the ever present property developers circle and smell the blood in the water

Going forward this cannot continue - but probably will,  with the inevitable hemorrhage of clubs along the way

All our club can do, is articulate the demand for a better future for non-league football, with community clubs central to that


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## Roger D (Mar 4, 2021)

To me, the key point for the league now is to get all clubs to the starting line next season. There is an increasing logic for some clubs playing on.

DH have confirmed the club cannot furlough many players due to the season start date. This is presumably true of many others. DH have also said they are looking at other funding, presumably on better terms than the government loan.

Better terms may not be available to all. If so, and you can't furlough your squad, you either stop and declare redunadncies, stop and borrow enough to furlough etc or carry on and borrow enough to carry your costs. That's basically 20% extra on wages and match days costs, training costs etc.

In return you get some revenue from streaming. You also ensure you don't have to refund season ticket holders, advertiser's etc - cancelling out some of the extra outgoings to play on.

Now start juggling them a bit, possibly furlough your highest earners eligible for furlough and bring in non contract players on the cheap - Tonbridge and King's Lynn had lots of players offer to help out - and you can start cutting your outgoings simultaneously. You also maintain fan and volunteer interest, something becoming an increasingly big risk to non league clubs 

To be clear when asked my opinion I said I thought the club should stop playing to save itself financially, irrespective of any punishment. DH however are an unusual beast at this level. I can see other clubs may be better off playing on. Let them. This also permits relegation so Dover and any other tier one clubs who cannot finish the season only go down one step. Helping to protect more league members.

I'm not too bothered about bankrolled clubs playing on for the sake of it, but in a few cases I think there is a plausible argument certain clubs may be better off playing on. 

The league has a duty to protect all member clubs at the end of the day.

Edited for clarity, the 20% extra is because.I believe you pay the wages and then reclaim furlough money so you have an up front cost.


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## scousedom (Mar 4, 2021)

If we knew this thing would be with us for five years, what would we (or rather a responsible League management) do? Probably, some or all of:

Change the season timing to Mar-Oct to maximise the chances of playing games when not in lockdown and therefore in front of crowds (because lockdowns are more likely to occur in autumn/winter).
Either agree to play seasons to a finish, even if that took five years, rather than cancelling one half way through every year.
Or rearrange the fixture scheduling so that every team plays each other once and if you have to call a season halfway then you can.
Adapt new standardised contract wording to enable seasons to be extended over lockdowns without incurring huge extra wage costs.
Hold any Government support money centrally, and distribute only on basis of need, and only to clubs who can show clearly that their budgets are sustainable based on their "normal" income - excluding sugardaddy top-ups.

So on the basis this thing will be here five years (or however long this Government lasts), we should start getting on with this. Otherwise we'll just have five more unfinished seasons and a lot of bankrupt clubs.


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## Roger D (Mar 4, 2021)

Several clubs, including Hamlet, have confirmed their contracts became invalid this season if the league formally halted. Presumably some clubs have failed to include that clause otherwise I doubt 15-20 tier two clubs would fancy playing on.

Presumably for the clubs with that clause, playing contracts ceased the day the vote was confirmed - plus any notice.

Edited to say I think Gavin confirmed the contracts in a newspaper interview rather than the club formally stating it.


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## Roger D (Mar 4, 2021)

An interesting one out my way. Aldershot's manager was a little critical in the local press of the decision to permit Hereford"s visit in the Trophy on Saturday. He felt this placed Shots at risk as they were testing and Hereford weren't. (If he's right that means the league still haven't delivered Hereford the promised testing kit.)

Shots have just confirmed their next two games are off and the first team squad / those close to it are in self isolation due to positive Covid tests.

No comment on where they think the infection occurred yet. Could be interesting. 

The league had better get some testing kits to Hereford now as the person/ people could have been infectious on Saturday, if that wasn't when the infection occurred.

Hopefully this won't impact Hereford's FA Trophy semi-final, that would be brutal.


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## Roger D (Mar 4, 2021)

Havant, another club keen to continue in the vote from memory, have confirmed they won't enter the mini league, if it happens 

I find it incredible that clubs were keen to force others to play on yet they now decide it's a bit too expensive when offered the chance to play on themselves. 

They bring no credit on themselves for their willingness to force others towards an abyss they have now looked at and pulled back from. What exactly has changed since they voted? A few buses up north will drive costs up a bit but surely any club that close to hitting financial trouble should have played safe and voted null and void?

To be fair Havant also cite the players being on furlough so they are likely to be uncompetitive if they restart. I'll be generous and assume this is genuine. However; it still makes them total hypocrites. They were one of 16 clubs to sign an open letter saying the league needed to play on due to integrity, mental health and so on. Nowhere in the letter can I find the caveat 'subject to us being competitive.'

It'll be interesting to see whether St Albans enter...


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## Pink Panther (Mar 4, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Havant, another club keen to continue in the vote from memory, have confirmed they won't enter the mini league, if it happens
> 
> I find it incredible that clubs were keen to force others to play on yet they now decide it's a bit too expensive when offered the chance to play on themselves.


On the issue of clubs being forced to play on, let's remember that 7 National Division clubs (including Dover, who seem to have downed tools and are facing possible expulsion from the league) have been forced to do just that. Even with a two thirds majority wanting to play on, that simply doesn't work if those other 7 clubs don't have any money left and are unable to generate matchday revenue because we're still playing behind closed doors.

You can't really blame individual clubs for arguing for their own preference, no matter how senseless it may seem to the rest of us. That's where the League Management Committee is supposed to come in, isn't it? They need to take an objective and dispassionate view and play it safe during a time of great uncertainty. Instead, for the last 12 months now, they seem to have been bending over backwards to accommodate the wishes of those who favour the gambler's approach of "let's get started and hope for the best".



scousedom said:


> If we knew this thing would be with us for five years, what would we (or rather a responsible League management) do? Probably, some or all of:
> 
> Change the season timing to Mar-Oct to maximise the chances of playing games when not in lockdown and therefore in front of crowds (because lockdowns are more likely to occur in autumn/winter).
> Either agree to play seasons to a finish, even if that took five years, rather than cancelling one half way through every year.
> ...


Some of those points are so obvious it's incredible that they weren't addressed before this season was allowed to begin. 

I'd add another another criterion to that list:

*No more matches played behind closed doors. Minimum 30% of standard ground capacity and if government rules that it's not safe enough for that number of spectators the matches are postponed or cancelled. *

We also need to see the contents of the Bernstein Report. Those responsible for leading everyone into this mess should be fully scrutinised and held to account. Will anyone really be surprised if the same rogues gallery is still in place on the National League Board next season?


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## pompeydunc (Mar 4, 2021)

Roger D said:


> The league had better get some testing kits to Hereford now as the person/ people could have been infectious on Saturday, if that wasn't when the infection occurred.
> 
> Hopefully this won't impact Hereford's FA Trophy semi-final, that would be brutal.



I think league run or club testing is frankly a red herring now.  Testing is available in the community to anyone that is required to go into work and can't work from home, e.g. footballers.  This is available for any organisation with "fewer than 50 employees, a sole trader, self-employed or a member of the general public" - so actually the last criteria encapsulates all the former.  In Southwark this is available at the Damilola Taylor Centre and London Bridge station - Book a free COVID-19 test.


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## EDC (Mar 4, 2021)

StephenMac said:


> This should be published. Brilliant, and I read it in your voice.


I can't help but do that with all Pink Panther's posts.


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## EDC (Mar 4, 2021)

pompeydunc said:


> I think league run or club testing is frankly a red herring now.  Testing is available in the community to anyone that is required to go into work and can't work from home, e.g. footballers.  This is available for any organisation with "fewer than 50 employees, a sole trader, self-employed or a member of the general public" - so actually the last criteria encapsulates all the former.  In Southwark this is available at the Damilola Taylor Centre and London Bridge station - Book a free COVID-19 test.


There's a big test centre in Belair Park too if that qualifies as suitable.


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## Al Crane (Mar 4, 2021)

My rapid test centre of choice is the one set up at Ignition Brewery in Sydenham!


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## Nivag (Mar 4, 2021)

Al Crane said:


> My rapid test centre of choice is the one set up at Ignition Brewery in Sydenham!


Vaccine chaser


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## Cyclodunc (Mar 5, 2021)

Al Crane said:


> My rapid test centre of choice is the one set up at Ignition Brewery in Sydenham!



Hot and fresh out the kitchen


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## Paula_G (Mar 5, 2021)

Not sure if this should be in a new thread but the London FA have stated that ALL Adult Cup Competitons will be played to a conclusion once competitive football is permitted to be restart. Dulwich were due to be away to Dartford before Christmas but I know that was postponed but can’t recall whether it was Covid or something else. Should be interesting how clubs at “Elite” level source players though I suppose the sensible thing would be to make use of Academy players Cups


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## Pink Panther (Mar 5, 2021)

Article below on Hamlet's players being ineligible for furlough. It seems really odd to make the cut off point the penultimate day of the month when a lot of employees get paid on the final day of the month. 









						Dulwich Hamlet player-coach Michael Timlin wants non-league version of PFA to give players greater financial protection
					

Dulwich Hamlet player-coach Michael Timlin wants improved financial protection for non-league players after several members of the South Londoners’ squad were left without furlough support.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk


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## pompeydunc (Mar 5, 2021)

Paula_G said:


> Not sure if this should be in a new thread but the London FA have stated that ALL Adult Cup Competitons will be played to a conclusion once competitive football is permitted to be restart. Dulwich were due to be away to Dartford before Christmas but I know that was postponed but can’t recall whether it was Covid or something else. Should be interesting how clubs at “Elite” level source players though I suppose the sensible thing would be to make use of Academy players Cups



Can withdraw with no penalty by 22 March...


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## Roger D (Mar 6, 2021)

The new combined tier two may be approved next week or may not happen seems to be the update 









						Voided National League divisions may resume in new and improvised format
					

Sixth-tier football in England could restart with willing clubs from north and south sections merging to complete the season




					www.theguardian.com


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## PartisanDulwich (Mar 6, 2021)

I doubt it will go ahead - but should it - I fear it will make Nigel Lawson propping up the pound on black Friday look like fiscal responsibility


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## Pink Panther (Mar 6, 2021)

PartisanDulwich said:


> I doubt it will go ahead - but should it - I fear it will make Nigel Lawson propping up the pound on black Friday look like fiscal responsibility


I'm still rather baffled as to why so many clubs want to play this league from scratch behind closed doors. Their main argument seems to be that sponsors and season ticket holders have already paid up front and will otherwise expect to be refunded, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen online suggests most supporters of all clubs are willing to write off their spending as a donation. Surely sponsors will accept the same if they actually support the club? Alternatively perhaps clubs should accept rolling over sponsorship deals for next season, or offering lower rates, just like we had to accept playing without matchday revenue this season.


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## Roger D (Mar 7, 2021)

The plan is now formally subnitted. Voluntary entry. All teams to play each other once. Champions up, one promotion spot via play offs. No clarity on relegation from tier one, it seems likely that won't happen and tier one will play with an extra team next year. Unless Dover get thrown out


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## AveryDave (Mar 8, 2021)

SPORT ENGLAND SAY NO
					

It is very disappointing to report that, despite assurances given to the club by representatives from both Sports England and the National League, we have subsequently been turned down for the Wint…




					www.borehamwoodfootballclub.co.uk
				




A potential twist - Boreham Wood's loan application has been turned down, despite apparent previous assurances that it would be granted - which they're suggesting might have been to get them to vote to continue playing.

Seeing suggestions from supporters of other clubs that they were one of the major beneficiaries of the original funding distribution, so could be an attempt to level that out, but if other clubs who were expecting the loans get similarly turned down it could start getting interesting.


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## Pink Panther (Mar 8, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> SPORT ENGLAND SAY NO
> 
> 
> It is very disappointing to report that, despite assurances given to the club by representatives from both Sports England and the National League, we have subsequently been turned down for the Wint…
> ...


They had the smallest average attendance in the National Division last season, around 750 I think. Their net gate receipts can't be more than £10k per match (I'm being generous) so for 23 home games they wouldn't have banked more than about £230k. They were given £246k from the lottery funding for the first three months of the season.


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## Roger D (Mar 11, 2021)

The FA Alliance Committee discuss the proposed Tier Two mini league tomorrow. If they approve it, it goes to the FA Council for their approval.


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## AveryDave (Mar 12, 2021)

And the mini league proposal is rejected.


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## PartisanDulwich (Mar 12, 2021)

The property speculators will be disappointed - as some of those Clubs would have undoubtedly folded trying to reach Nirvana


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## Paula_G (Mar 12, 2021)

Talking of property speculators.. Ian Rush, Whyteleafe, and a Disturbing Glimpse of a Potential ‘New Normal’ | Twohundredpercent


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## Pink Panther (Mar 12, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> And the mini league proposal is rejected.



Bloody right too.  At last the FA has shown some authority and consigned this absurd pirate competition to the dustbin where it belongs.  The fact that the National League humoured these clubs for so long represents yet another entry in its ongoing litany of mismanagement.

This league has long since turned into a farce ever since the season began behind closed doors, rapidly followed by the lottery funding scandal.  It appears to have become a sponsors' and benefactors' league where policy is dictated by tinpot owners who wish to play matches in a bubble for their own amusement and with little regard for their clubs' supporters, or other clubs.  It still remains to be see how much damage could be done to some of those National Division clubs forced to compete the season behind closed doors under duress.  I can't find the link now but I saw the King's Lynn chairman quoted as saying his club could be left £300k in debt.

Incredibly the league's main sponsor Vanarama has just agreed a 3 year extension.  I can only assume they subscribe to the adage that "all publicity is good publicity"!

Let's not forget that we *still* await the publication of the Bernstein Report


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## PartisanDulwich (Mar 13, 2021)

Pink Panther  spot on


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## AveryDave (Mar 13, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> The fact that the National League humoured these clubs for so long represents yet another entry in its ongoing litany of mismanagement.



The refuge of the useless and the cowardly - letting someone else make a decision they could and should have made themselves, presumably to try and avoid further criticism from those clubs bankrolled by individuals or groups who have more money than sense and could be provoked to challenge them further.

They clearly want all this Step 2 stuff to go away so they can finish Step 1, move on to next season and hope they never get held to account for the absolute shambles they've presided over this season.


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## scousedom (Mar 13, 2021)

Imagine Vanarama were worried about negative headlines “Sponsor abandons nonleague football exacerbating cash crisis” etc. They may have reduced the amount, who knows, I’ve not seen details anywhere.


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## Pink Panther (Mar 13, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> The refuge of the useless and the cowardly - letting someone else make a decision they could and should have made themselves, presumably to try and avoid further criticism from those clubs bankrolled by individuals or groups who have more money than sense and could be provoked to challenge them further.
> 
> They clearly want all this Step 2 stuff to go away so they can finish Step 1, move on to next season and hope they never get held to account for the absolute shambles they've presided over this season.


It's difficult to know exactly who is responsible for what, but there appears to have been a dearth of leadership since the early part of the season. Chairman Barwick seems to have gone missing in action. (I think it was officially announced that he's standing down this summer, so it looks like he's just collecting his salary while doing as little as possible when he should have gone with immediate effect.) CEO Ives was only appointed on an interim basis after his predecessor Tattersall jumped ship, so he inherited a mess, but in kicking the Bernstein Report into the long grass he hasn't been proactive enough in rectifying the damage that was already done.

Of the League Board members, Parmenter of Dover has already stood down leaving a vacancy. My impression is that being a league board member is a bit like being a local borough councillor. Most people won't really know what they do, or even know (or care) who they are, until something goes wrong and they want someone to blame. I would imagine it's relatively easy to get a representative of your club onto the board if you're determined enough, at least for the National Division clubs who make up the bulk of the group, but serving must be a thankless task.

They're clearly desperate to promote clubs to the Football League as usual but I think they've fallen into a trap of becoming a poor version of the leagues above instead of playing to their strength as the pinnacle of the non-league game, which so many supporters prefer precisely because it's different to the Football League and Premier League.


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## Roger D (Mar 14, 2021)

Dorking have given the League Board both barrels.





__





						BOARD STATEMENT: THE NATIONAL LEAGUE STEP 2 DECISION
					





					www.dorkingwanderers.com


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## AveryDave (Mar 14, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Dorking have given the League Board both barrels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't help but read that in the voice of Marc White shouting in an empty room, for ages.


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## Stuart Fordyce (Mar 14, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Dorking have given the League Board both barrels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't hold back eh? I know Mr White annoys a lot of folk but some sound points in there. Be interesting to know what, if any, plans the leagues have for restarting after the summer.


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## Pink Panther (Mar 14, 2021)

Can't think why the FA didn't find this acceptable:





Roger D said:


> Dorking have given the League Board both barrels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The final paragraph is as follows:

"_In summary, with good strategical leadership the league could have comfortably created scenarios that protected all their members clubs. It was crucial to protect both those clubs that could not continue, and those that also could."_

The only way to achieve this was not to start the season without supporters in the first place. Clubs with big sponsorship deals could have rolled them over to next season and those who rely on big matchday takings wouldn't have had to muddle along without their main source of income.

Right from the start I felt it was totally misguided for the league to source funding from the National Lottery. That £10m sum has now been wasted when it should have been spent on improving sports facilities or assisting aspiring athletes with funding for coaching and training camps etc.


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## Paula_G (Mar 18, 2021)

Received the following email today from the FA in regards the restarting of grassroots football from 29th March though it should noticed that spectators (except in regards safeguarding at youth football) will not be allowed so guessing Non-League football where fans pay admission is unlikely to restart yet. Then again it’s going to be interesting to see police cracking down on park games with “too many” people watching...

*Update on the return of Grassroots football from 29th March 2021*

Dear Paula,
As part of the next stage of the Government’s roadmap out of national lockdown, outdoor sports facilities can open, and organised outdoor sport can take place. This means that from Monday 29th March, organised outdoor football, following all FA and government protocols, can take place. Organised outdoor disability football can currently take place, including under national lockdown. 

The aim of this note is to share with you what we currently know about what the return to football at the end of March will look like to help your planning. This is based on our conversations with the Government to date and information published on Gov.uk. Please note that our full guidance will be published as soon as we receive the DCMS guidance. We expect that this will be early in the week commencing Monday 22nd March. Please note that we will need to regularly update our FA guidance as we move through the different steps of the Government’s roadmap. 
This note applies to all youth and adult grassroots football and futsal, including all formats of the game. Information for clubs with teams who compete in the men’s National League System and the Women’s Football Pyramid (Tiers 3 to 6) will be communicated separately. All government guidance on hygiene and social-distancing measures must be followed.

*Tiers*
The tiered system has now been removed and the Government’s approach moving forward, will be a national approach.

*Travel*
The Government guidance on travel is that the ‘stay at home’ rule will end on Monday 29 March, but many restrictions will remain in place. As organised sport can resume, all participants may travel to games but should avoid travel at the busiest times and routes, as well as minimising any unnecessary journeys where possible. All participants must follow the Government’s guidance on safer travel, which we expect will be updated shortly.

*Changing rooms*
Changing rooms cannot be used as part of step one in the roadmap out of lockdown and must remain shut. Changing facilities can only be used in emergency situations, or by disabled people who are taking part in organised sport and physical activity. We are working with the Government on what this will look like through each step of restrictions being lifted. We will update our guidance as soon as we have any further information. Toilets will be allowed to open, 30 minutes before and 30 minutes after training and/or matches.

*Spectators*
No spectators are allowed at grassroots football as part of step one of the Government’s roadmap, unless for safeguarding purposes which should be limited to one parent or carer per child

*Indoor football*
Indoor sport is not currently allowed. This is planned to return no earlier than Monday 17th May, as part of step three of the Government’s roadmap. Currently, no indoor football or futsal can be played apart from disability football, which can take place indoors from the 29th March.

*Safeguarding and First Aid*
Before re-starting play, all clubs must carry out a risk assessment and record the procedures and checks put in place. It is essential that everyone is clear about the restrictions and works together to manage social distancing, strict hand hygiene and all other protocols in our detailed guidance. Clubs should also update their medical emergency action plan around player care and strictly follow the first- aid guidance document which will be updated and published on TheFA.com, alongside our guidance

We would like to thank you for your hard work and resilience during this challenging period, and look forward to continuing to work with you to bring the game back safely.


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## PartisanDulwich (Mar 25, 2021)




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## tonysingh (Mar 25, 2021)

PartisanDulwich said:


>




Putting that event on is shear madness.


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## Roger D (Mar 25, 2021)

The Royal Highland Agricultural Show is credited with generating £50m + for the local area in a normal year. I can see why they are being supported in an attempt to get them through to 2022 and hopefully something approaching normality.

The bigger picture is that agricultural shows are often struggling in the UK. There are exceptions but quite a few are in obvious decline. Near to where I live the Alton Show ceased three or so years ago, after a couple of hundred years plus. As in so many parts of life we seem to be moving to the "super shows" surviving and the smaller local shows just about hanging on in there or failing. This grant is part of this process. Many smaller fairs will get little / nothing and I fear a fair few will never be held again.

I won't name it but I strongly suspect Covid will be the end of a very historic agricultural fair held not far from me. If so, it'll be a loss to the local pig community as it is one of the few around here to show pigs and was important in generating the interest required to save the likes of the Berkshire pig. The breed remains endangered with just 2-300 breeding sows registered in the UK, making it much rarer than the Giant Panda.


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## pinknblue (Mar 25, 2021)

PartisanDulwich said:


>




How can you have a 'show' that is behind closed doors? What are you showing and to whom?


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## Paula_G (Mar 26, 2021)

All the usual events by the sounds of it, just no audience and presumably no trade stands which bring in a massive chunk of the income for these shows though a portion might be recouped through advertising on the live streams.


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## pinknblue (Mar 26, 2021)

Almost as bonkers as playing National League South football behind closed doors. They must be on a hide-ing to nothing. Either that or someone's pulling the wool over my eyes!


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## Nivag (Mar 26, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> Almost as bonkers as playing National League South football behind closed doors. They must be on a hide-ing to nothing. Either that or someone's pulling the wool over my eyes!


I reckon there's a betting syndicate that's forcing the show to happen..


----------



## T Corcoran (Mar 26, 2021)

The club have been fined 8k and a suspended 8 point deduction for not completing games when we had no funding


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## JoeBoy1959 (Mar 26, 2021)

T Corcoran said:


> The club have been fined 8k and a suspended 8 point deduction for not completing games when we had no funding



The league are proper arseholes


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## sleaterkinney (Mar 26, 2021)

For a league that was called off. That's really special.


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## bkbk (Mar 26, 2021)

Honestly, fuck these clowns


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## tonysingh (Mar 26, 2021)

But I'm sure the cunts said that charging us (and other clubs) was just a formality and nothing would actually happen.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Fucking madness:









						Anger and exasperation as Dulwich Hamlet fined £8,000 for failing to fulfil fixtures during Covid pandemic
					

There’s shock and anger amongst fans and club officials today after the National League handed down a huge fine to Dulwich Hamlet FC. The club has stated that they have been fined £8,000 and …



					www.brixtonbuzz.com
				




And Dover have been pretty much crushed:



> An Independent Panel has ruled that Dover Athletic are deemed guilty of four breaches of Rule 8.39 for failing to meet fixture obligations between February 16th and February 27th.
> 
> The Club will play no further part in the 2020/21 Playing Season, with the Club’s existing National League (Step One) results expunged. A 12-point deduction for the 2021/22 Playing Season and fine of £40,000 have additionally been issued.











						Dover Athletic fined £40,000, 2020/21 record expunged and 12-point deduction for next season as 18 clubs charged for breaking National League rules - The Non-League Football Paper
					

An Independent Panel, commissioned by The National League, met to hear the cases of 18 Member Clubs charged with alleged breaches of League Rules




					www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com


----------



## bkbk (Mar 26, 2021)

I expect the fines pool will make its way into the Boreham Woods coffers somehow. Seems to be how it usually works?


----------



## Cat Daisy (Mar 26, 2021)

"Independent Panel"? Yeah, I bet. 
When you are fining about one third of your clubs, do you not take a moment to reflect that - just maybe - you have got it wrong?


----------



## Pickers (Mar 26, 2021)

Cat Daisy said:


> "Independent Panel"? Yeah, I bet.
> When you are fining about one third of your clubs, do you not take a moment to reflect that - just maybe - you have got it wrong?



I guess someone needs to provide funds to allow then to pay the legal costs they will incur  to sort this mess out.


----------



## Cat Daisy (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickers said:


> I guess someone needs to provide funds to allow then to pay the legal costs they will incur  to sort this mess out.


Perhaps they could use it to pay for a minute-taker at their meetings with DCMS?


----------



## scousedom (Mar 26, 2021)

Here’s a thought. Why not get together with all the other clubs fined, add up the total, collectively crowdfund with a target of double that total, and once that is reached publicly call out the League saying “You can have your fine, or we can give all of this to NHS Charities Together”.


----------



## pinknblue (Mar 26, 2021)

That's an absolute f*****g disgrace!


----------



## EDC (Mar 26, 2021)

The NL board are the equivalent of the old Football League brown envelopes voting for and against re-election back in the late 1900's.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 27, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> How can you have a 'show' that is behind closed doors? What are you showing and to whom?



I appreciate this isn't the biggest issue just now but to  explain as I was off line previously.

They will show animals. Most animals can be reasonably judged online - sheep are the main eception.

The reason this is important is winning a big show such as the Highland makes the bull or offspring of the winner worth more for breeding.. This is especially important if a male wins. Inbreeding becomes a massive issue as breed numbers decline New male bloodlines can be the difference between extinction and survival for a breed.

For various reasons, relating to animal movement rules, Covid rules and Covids financial impact there is real concern in preservation circles about what is happening.  

Keeping the key shows alive may be the difference between survival and extinction for some breeds, Whether saving them is a price worth paying is a judgement call. 

I'd also suggest this money is a government decision to try and boost the pro union vote in Scotland. The show is critical to the future of some Scottish breeds.

Edited to say, for the sake of £750k now they don't want to face accusations of costing the region £50 - 60m p.a. moving forwards.

Ultimately its all politics. Just as it was when DCMS decided further grants to the Conference were too toxic to deliver due to the Conference being erm the Conference.


----------



## pinknblue (Mar 27, 2021)

Roger D said:


> I appreciate this isn't the biggest issue just now but to  explain as I was off line previously.
> 
> They will show animals. Most animals can be reasonably judged online - sheep are the main eception.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that explanation.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 27, 2021)

The Concord chairman has confirmed an attempt to call an EGM to move a motion of no confidence in the league board.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 27, 2021)

Dover have told the league they won't pay and are busy talking to lawyers. 

So we have a club run by an ex League Board member threatening legal action against the League Bioard. Simultaneously Maidstone have dropped hints they may take action against the very same club owner for his actions whilst on the league board. File under you couldn't make it up.

The National League Board, the gift that just keeps on giving.


----------



## Stuart Fordyce (Mar 27, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Dover have told the league they won't pay and are busy talking to lawyers.
> 
> So we have a club run by an ex League Board member threatening legal action against the League Bioard. Simultaneously Maidstone have dropped hints they may take action against the very same club owner for his actions whilst on the league board. File under you couldn't make it up.
> 
> The National League Board, the gift that just keeps on giving.


Good for Dover.  We shouldn't either.


----------



## tonysingh (Mar 27, 2021)

Stuart Fordyce said:


> Good for Dover.  We shouldn't either.




If we do pay then it's a stain on the club tbf. The principle of the thing is what's important now


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 27, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> If we do pay then it's a stain on the club tbf. The principle of the thing is what's important now


I'm sure we won't just pay up without a fight but ultimately we'll have little choice if we can't get it cancelled through official or legal appeals procedures. Eventually the National League won't let us play and the FA would block us from joining another league with outstanding unpaid fines.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 27, 2021)

Spot on PinkPanther. Unless the debt is revoked, failure to pay would almost certainly lead to the demise of the club. 

The mood music isn't looking good for the league judging by 200%



			The National League: From Despair to… Where? | Twohundredpercent


----------



## tonysingh (Mar 27, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> I'm sure we won't just pay up without a fight but ultimately we'll have little choice if we can't get it cancelled through official or legal appeals procedures. Eventually the National League won't let us play and the FA would block us from joining another league with outstanding unpaid fines.



Yeah, you're right. It's just the injustice of it sticks in the craw somewhat.


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Mar 27, 2021)

we could raise the 8k via friendlies and say you can have it or better still local community/good causes groups ie foodbank  can have it


----------



## Roger D (Mar 28, 2021)

Curzon Ashton's Chairman has said they can't pay their 8k fine.

There may be an argument for the fined tier two clubs pooling any fundraising to pay off the fines. Collectively they are only as strong as their weakest member and there's a few quite small clubs facing substantial fines


----------



## SagaLout (Mar 28, 2021)

The fine covered on ITV local news. Suggestion that if the fine is paid the money will come from the women's team ?


----------



## Nivag (Mar 28, 2021)




----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 28, 2021)

SagaLout said:


> The fine covered on ITV local news. Suggestion that if the fine is paid the money will come from the women's team ?


Presumably the club makes a net loss on running the women's (and men's academy) teams plus other community focused initiatives, so theoretically the £8,000 fine leaves less money available for those areas. I'm sure the club would not cut back disproportionately on funding the women's teams but it doesn't exactly help. It's just an example of how hammering clubs with punitive sanctions after forcing us to play behind closed doors is adding insult to injury.

The National League had an opportunity to position itself as the elite competition for football clubs who play primarily for the benefit of supporters who enjoy attending games live in the flesh. All they had to do was suspend the season and say: "we don't play until our supporters can be here, at the stadiums" to support their clubs in the customary manner." Instead they've prioritised deluded owners and big money sponsors by trying to emulate the Premier League in pressing ahead behind closed doors. 

The Premier League is the most watched competition in world sport, with a global television audience of billions driving massive broadcasting and sponsorship deals. National League matches are typically watched by attendances ranging from the low hundreds to the low thousands and the competition is of limited interest beyond those who actually turn up at the turnstiles to watch its 66 member clubs on a matchday. At a rough guess that's an aggregate average attendance of less than 100,000. Yet the National League Board tried to emulate the Premier League by playing behind closed doors and went cap in hand to the DCMS for the funding to make it possible, deceived its member clubs into starting the season under false pretences, then left each club to fend for itself when it became apparent that there would be no more grant funding. All they have achieved is to firmly establish themselves as an embarrassing tinpot version of the Premier League and Football League, instead of the refreshing alternative to those competitions that attracts so many supporters to its matches in the first place.


----------



## pinknblue (Mar 28, 2021)

SagaLout said:


> The fine covered on ITV local news. Suggestion that if the fine is paid the money will come from the women's team ?



I'm not sure about the wisdom not appealing the fine but I definitely think we need to go to the FA to show that the NL board are not fit for purpose.


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2021)

They've completely lost control: 

*12 points deducted* – Dover Athletic (£40,000 fine)
*8 suspended points deducted* – Dulwich Hamlet (£8,000 fine)
*8 suspended points deducted* – Curzon Ashton (£8,000 fine)
*8 suspended points deducted* – Slough Town (£8,000 fine)
*8 suspended points deducted* – Chippenham Town (£8,000 fine)
*6 suspended points deducted* – Bradford (Park Avenue) (£6,000 fine)
*6 suspended points deducted* – Blyth Spartans (£6,000 fine)
*6 suspended points deducted* – Farsley Celtic (£6,000 fine) (reduced to £4,200 for accepting the charge ahead of the hearing)
*4 suspended points deducted* – Bath City (£4,000 fine)
*2 suspended points deducted* – Southport (£2,000 fine) (+ £2,000 for covid breaches)
*2 suspended points deducted* – Concord Rangers (£2,000 fine)
*2 suspended points deducted* – Darlington (£2,000 fine)
*2 suspended points deducted* – Gateshead (£2,000 fine) (reduced to £1,400 for accepting the charge ahead of the hearing)
*2 suspended points deducted* – Kettering Town – (2,000 fine) 









						REVEALED: The 17 clubs handed a suspended points deduction by the National League - Fan Banter
					

The 17 clubs handed a suspended points deduction by the National League have been revealed following that shocking statement on Friday. As we know, Dover Athletic will play no further part in the National League this season with their results expunged after failing to meet fixture obligations...




					fanbanter.co.uk


----------



## Roger D (Mar 28, 2021)

Asked on twitter whether they were paying up, DHFC have replied that something is brewing and they will say more when they can.

Watch this space


----------



## SagaLout (Mar 28, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> *Presumably the club makes a net loss on running the women's (and men's academy) teams plus other community focused initiatives*, so theoretically the £8,000 fine leaves less money available for those areas. I'm sure the club would not cut back disproportionately on funding the women's teams but it doesn't exactly help. It's just an example of how hammering clubs with punitive sanctions after forcing us to play behind closed doors is adding insult to injury.
> 
> The National League had an opportunity to position itself as the elite competition for football clubs who play primarily for the benefit of supporters who enjoy attending games live in the flesh. All they had to do was suspend the season and say: "we don't play until our supporters can be here, at the stadiums" to support their clubs in the customary manner." Instead they've prioritised deluded owners and big money sponsors by trying to emulate the Premier League in pressing ahead behind closed doors ...................


Good post and I agree with most of it. However, it would be intersting to know the net cost of running the women's team given home match day attendances in the hundreds.


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 28, 2021)

SagaLout said:


> Good post and I agree with most of it. However, it would be intersting to know the net cost of running the women's team given home match day attendances in the hundreds.


I've no idea what the net cost of running the women's *teams* is, but don't forget the overheads for the reserves are probably much the same as for the first team and they don't pull a paying attendance. 

The last couple of matches against Orient and Dartford pulled crowds of almost 600 when there were no crowds allowed for the men's games, which is great, but until then it was 200-300 with admission prices £4/£2. Many of those attending will be season ticket holders, so I would think matchday gate receipts are typically in the low £ hundreds and they play relatively few fixtures compared to the men's team. Hopefully they'll continue to attract larger crowds next season after people saw how entertaining and exciting those last two matches were. 

Returning to the matter of the £8,000 fine, clubs at our level work very hard to raise additional funds of that size through 50/50 draws, 12th Man Funds and other similar initiatives. It's pretty sickening for the league to undermine that by issuing fines, even more so in the current climate and following their own incompetent handling of the situation.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 29, 2021)

Maidstone and Dorking are formally seeking support for an EGM to debate a motion stating thr meeting has no confidence in the Chairman and League Board.



Edited to say the motion needs the support of 10% of voting rights to call the meeting. Will be stunned if they don't get that. They ask for responses by midday on Wednesday.

Edited again to say Concord have already confirmed they are supporting the motion.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 29, 2021)

It's all very well to call for the removal of a clearly incompetent chairman and board who have mishandled the whole season catastrophically.

what comes next, though? Is the a better calibre of leadership waiting in the wings?

football leagues are voluntary membership associations run by the clubs. The league effectively is the clubs...one thing to oust the leadership, but hope they have a better alternative in place.

It is really sad to see this happening, incidentally. I love English non league and it really is a roaring binfire administratively, and has been for months.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 29, 2021)

They are making it clear their agenda is wholesale governance reform and not just changing the faces. 

We shall see if they win the vote.


----------



## EDC (Mar 29, 2021)

Fuck Hemel Hampstead.


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 30, 2021)

EDC said:


> Fuck Hemel Hampstead.


So what have they done to rattle your cage?


----------



## EDC (Mar 30, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> So what have they done to rattle your cage?


Complained that some clubs are undermining the NL.


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 30, 2021)

EDC said:


> Complained that some clubs are undermining the NL.


The National League Board has undermined the NL.


----------



## SagaLout (Mar 30, 2021)

Good interview with Dover's chairman here :- 





__





						CHAIRMAN’S RADIO INTERVIEW – DOVER ATHLETIC FC
					






					www.doverathletic.com


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 30, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> football leagues are voluntary membership associations run by the clubs. The league effectively is the clubs...one thing to oust the leadership, but hope they have a better alternative in place.



This is why it's so bizarre that rather than acting to protect those clubs in an extreme situation they've decided to attack a large section of those clubs. You'd think they'd be ideally placed to recognise what is required here as the overall aim - which clearly should be 'ensure the survival of all the clubs as ongoing entities' not 'try and get board member's clubs promoted.'


----------



## SagaLout (Mar 30, 2021)

EDC said:


> Fuck Hemel Hampstead.


The interview with Kerry Underwood , Vice Chair of Hemel Hempstead, (28 minutes into the program below), was much more balanced than I was expecting given the above comment - incidentally, a view I initially shared having at first only read a tweet from Ollie Bayliss.









						The Non-League Show - National League, Grassroots Returning and Para Football - BBC Sounds
					

With Leverstock Green, Colney Heath and Tring Corinthians




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 30, 2021)

The Chairman's latest thoughts on the ongoing omnishambles:

Dulwich Hamlet – South London News (londonnewsonline.co.uk) 

Apparently the "independent" committee that came up with the charges consisted of three members, two of whom are former FA colleagues of Mark Ives, so it looks suspiciously like he just briefed them on what sort of outcome was expected by the League Board.  This was mentioned by one of the Chippenham Town directors in a podcast I listened to earlier today.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 30, 2021)

Dover are echoing Ben's point about when is the fine due? They have said if it is called in now, the club is insolvent.


----------



## Pink Panther (Mar 30, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Dover are echoing Ben's point about when is the fine due? They have said if it is called in now, the club is insolvent.


It's bloody obvious when you think about it, isnt it?  Clubs haven't had any income since December, so if they ran out of funds to play the games how are they going to find the money to pay these fines before next season?  Unless of course people within the clubs pay them out of their own pocket, which shouldn't need to happen.

This isn't the first time this season that our directors have publicly reported being unable to get a response to a simple question from the League Board.  As for League Chairman Brian Barwick OBE, he seems to have spent most of the season doing a passable impersonation of Lord Lucan while the league has been faced with its greatest ever crisis.  What does he actually do?


----------



## Roger D (Mar 30, 2021)

Most people in Rugby League seemed to be asking what Brian did before he went. He clearly does something so crucial us mere mortals can't work it out


----------



## Nivag (Mar 30, 2021)

Looks like he'll be getting new brown envelopes from his next venture, as the board won't be getting any direct remuneration. 








						Barwick joins Sport Liverpool to bid for major events
					

Liverpool has outlined a 10 year plan to bid for major international sports events.




					www.prolificnorth.co.uk


----------



## Roger D (Mar 31, 2021)

Chester are publicly supporting the request for an EGM and giving the Board both barrels 





__





						Chester Football Club – Official Website   » CLUB STATEMENT | Chester FC support proposal for EGM
					






					www.chesterfc.com


----------



## Roger D (Mar 31, 2021)

Ollie Bayliss is reporting significant club support for an EGM. The voting deadline has been extended until Monday as some clubs need more time to discuss internally.


----------



## Nivag (Mar 31, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Ollie Bayliss is reporting significant club support for an EGM. The voting deadline has been extended until Monday as some clubs need more time to discuss internally.


Probably waiting for a cheque to clear from the board so they vote against it.


----------



## Roger D (Mar 31, 2021)

Dorking Wanderers lawyer has been busy.










						PRELIMINARY WRITTEN REPRESENTATIONS
					

PRELIMINARY WRITTEN REPRESENTATIONS




					www.dorkingwanderers.com


----------



## scousedom (Mar 31, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Dorking Wanderers lawyer has been busy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The prose style is eerily familiar.


----------



## AveryDave (Mar 31, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Dorking Wanderers lawyer has been busy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The leopard finally and inevitably shows his spots. Vast majority of that seeks to enforce Dorking’s preference to complete the season, with some spurious face saving tagged on at the end to try and make out they’re seeking the right outcome for all National League clubs.

Which is not necessarily surprising, it’s their money after all, but does make a mockery of all of Marc White’s suggestions that he supports the position of those clubs who had to stop playing as well.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 6, 2021)

Reports online suggest Brian Barwick is stepping down. Apparently based on an article in The Times - which is a paywall site.

Confirmation re whether an EGM is to be held expected on Thursday.


----------



## Nivag (Apr 6, 2021)

This is the article if anyone has a login to read it, I don't.









						National League chairman Brian Barwick to stand down as crunch time looms for clubs
					

The National League has been thrown into turmoil by the news that Brian Barwick is to stand down as chairman, The Times can reveal. It comes at a critical time




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 6, 2021)

Nivag said:


> This is the article if anyone has a login to read it, I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The first paragraph is a laugh. The National League was thrown into turmoil when the season was allowed to start without supporters in the grounds and has gone from bad to worse ever since:

*"The National League has been thrown into turmoil by the news that Brian Barwick is to stand down as chairman*_, The Times can reveal.

It comes at a critical time for the National League clubs, because it is feared the departure of the former Football Association chief executive and television boss will make the government even more nervous about providing future bailout money.

Barwick has been the chairman since 2015 but the impact of Covid-19 has been devastating for clubs, with the government providing a £10 million rescue package last November.

The distribution of that cash caused a major furore, however. While there was an understanding that the money would be distributed according to clubs’ lost gate receipts, the National League board decided its own distribution formula based on a flat rate.

It left some clubs with hundreds of thousands of pounds less than they were expecting, with the criticism prompting the National League to commission David Bernstein, the former FA chairman, to lead an independent review of the financial distribution.

In February the National League North and South seasons were brought to a premature close and declared null and void, with only the National League continuing. But there has been further controversy with fines for clubs.

Last month Dulwich Hamlet, which plays in National League South, were fined £8,000 and given an eight-point suspended points deduction for not fulfilling fixtures. Dover was fined £40,000.

The National League said it had “sympathy” for clubs but such sanctions have caused further resentment with talk of a possible vote of no confidence in the board.

The board is due to meet this Thursday, after which there is due to be an announcement that 66-year-old Barwick is stepping down at the end of the season.

But his departure will create something of a power vacuum and may convince the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport to stick with the plan of only offering loans to clubs going forward. That in itself has caused issues, given the view at the National League that they started the season believing that there would be centrally-funded grant support only for that to change to loans. Not all clubs have chosen to take on those loans, for fear of accruing more debt. But the situation, with a lack of direct government support, is leaving the majority of clubs fearing for their future.

Speaking today to The Times, Barwick said: “I’m very comfortable about my decision. It’s a time of life thing. I’ve done this for six years and I’ve had a great time doing it. I wanted to give something back to the sport.
“But the last 12 months have been the most difficult in my career. I’ve been trying my very best, as has everyone else, to get through this crisis. It blew us out of the water. There will be some who think we’ve done a good job and some who don’t.

“I decided over Christmas that it was time for me to step down. I’m 67 in June and I’ve been around sport and sports broadcasting since 1979. I formally told the board at our February meeting. They were surprised and very supportive, and they’d love me to stick around.

“But I just thought, you know what, it is the right time. I was determined out of a sense of duty to see this season through. I will stay until the end of the season. I think that’s the right thing to do. It’s morally right that they can prepare for the future.

“But if I’m honest it’s been tough. I am a part-time, non-executive chair who for the last 12 months has worked for 365 days.”_


----------



## Nivag (Apr 6, 2021)

Jumping before being pushed


----------



## Roger D (Apr 6, 2021)

To be honest I expect an EGM to be held but for the Board to survive. Clubs with Football League ambitions will support them to avoid the risk of EFL pulling promotion. It seems the rebels need 75% of the weighted vote to carry a motion of no confidence. I don't see that happening.

The real question, I suspect, is will the rebels get enough votes to fatally damage the Board's credibility, probably forcing them to stand down at the AGM.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 8, 2021)

17  member clubs supported the call for an EGM. No break down yet of how many were full members etc.

The proposers are now moving for an EGM but have also lobbed in an olive branch, offering constructive talks on governance.

Note edited to correct vote figure


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 8, 2021)

Roger D said:


> 25 member clubs supported the call for an EGM. No break down yet of how many were full members etc.
> 
> The proposers are now moving for an EGM but have also lobbed in an olive branch, offering constructive talks on governance.


That's more than one third of the membership. Even if it's not a majority it would be foolish to think that level of discontent can be suppressed with more heavy handed sanctions. If the 25 are almost exclusively from the regional divisions, that would merely emphasise that the league is being run exclusively for the benefit of the National Division to the detriment of everyone else.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 8, 2021)

Apologies to PP, I seem to have had a mad 30 seconds when typing. It was 17 clubs in support not 25, so nearer 25%.

My error not his.


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## pompeydunc (Apr 8, 2021)

Roger D said:


> 17  member clubs supported the call for an EGM. No break down yet of how many were full members etc.
> 
> The proposers are now moving for an EGM but have also lobbed in an olive branch, offering constructive talks on governance.
> 
> Note edited to correct vote figure



What are the rules for the vote on the Motion at the EGM?  Is it a simple majority of member clubs, or do they use that arcane one vote for each premier division club and then just four votes for each regional division.  If it's the latter, then is it a simple majority for each regional division that then deploys all four votes as a block?

I would expect (from reading views online and no more) that north would vote for the motion of no confidence, south against and most national league clubs against.  Seemingly, therefore constructive talks on major governance reform seems a better option to take than losing a motion and giving the board a sense of they did everything right and have support of clubs.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 8, 2021)

Subject to confirmation however the proposers are reported to believe they need 75% of the weighted votes.

Put simply they seems to need 75% of votes from one vote per club National League and four votes per division North and South. The Associate Member votes usually go in a block vote of four on a simple majority however; as this is an EGM who knows?

I don't think they ever expected to win. I suspect it's a tactic to weaken the Boards position in the "constructive negotiations".


----------



## pinknblue (Apr 8, 2021)

17 is a disappointingly low number in my opinion. How on earth can 3/4 of the league's clubs be supportive of this board?


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2021)

Everything was better when were in the Isthmian, IMO. The higher up we've gone, the shittier the experience has become for me.


----------



## Pink Panther (Apr 8, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> 17 is a disappointingly low number in my opinion. How on earth can 3/4 of the league's clubs be supportive of this board?


Lots of people grumble about all sorts of things, but given the opportunity to push for a change they just can't be bothered. About one third of the electorate don't vote in a General Election. Our present government only has the active support of about 30% of the electorate, yet it has a large majority in Parliament and can more or less run the country however it likes. Those who didn't vote for someone else when they had the chance now have the government they deserve.


----------



## pinknblue (Apr 9, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Lots of people grumble about all sorts of things, but given the opportunity to push for a change they just can't be bothered. About one third of the electorate don't vote in a General Election. Our present government only has the active support of about 30% of the electorate, yet it has a large majority in Parliament and can more or less run the country however it likes. Those who didn't vote for someone else when they had the chance now have the government they deserve.



That's very true PP, but unfortunately the active minority who actually try to do something end up suffering with the with the government (or NL board) they really don't deserve. The sins of omission and neglect are as bad as the deliberate ones sometimes! 

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me


----------



## Roger D (Apr 9, 2021)

Roger D said:


> As if it's not already mad enough, Shahid Azeem who is cited as the League's Commercial Director is quoted in today's Aldershot News as confirming league members are not allowed to take on the proposed loans.
> 
> He still wants to finish the season though



The Shahid Azeem master plan for survival has emerged. All you have to do is persuade your local council to promise a 100 year plus lease extension on your ground and to permit a massive redevelopment. You then get a fellow board member to clear all the club debts via a loan that is only repayable post redevelopment, to ensure it can be paid.

Quite how he expected the clubs not benefitting for an imminent redevelopment and a generous benefactor to get through without substantial debt has yet to be explained.


----------



## Roger D (Apr 12, 2021)

A few teams have now confirmed appeals against the fines. Bath City need help paying the fine.









						Club Latest - Bath City FC
					

Following the imposition of fines and suspended points deductions by the National League, we have this week submitted a written appeal to the FA and also written directly to the National League to express our views and call for a re-think. Earlier this week Brian Barwick announced that he will...




					www.bathcityfc.com


----------



## Nivag (Apr 12, 2021)

A season ticket email/survey should be hitting your mailbox .
Choices of donation to the club, refund or refunded against next season's ticket.


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## Roger D (Apr 14, 2021)

Maidstone and Dorking have officially notified the league the have sufficient support and requested an EGM be arranged to permit a vote of no confidence.


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## Roger D (Apr 19, 2021)

Maidstone and Dorking have confirmed the league has yet reply. They state Mark Ives is phoning the 17 signatories and asking them to retract their support for the EGM 

Dorking and Maidstone have made it clear they view Mark as part of the problem and not as part of the solution


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## Pink Panther (Apr 19, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Maidstone and Dorking have confirmed the league has yet reply. They state Mark Ives is phoning the 17 signatories and asking them to retract their support for the EGM
> 
> Dorking and Maidstone have made it clear they view Mark as part of the problem and not as part of the solution


Is Ives complete tone deaf? I thought he was only in place on an interim basis anyway, he should be gone by the end of the season.


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## Roger D (Apr 19, 2021)

No, he was formally appointed last week. When in hole, keep digging seems to be the league's master plan.


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## Pink Panther (Apr 19, 2021)

Roger D said:


> No, he was formally appointed last week. When in hole, keep digging seems to be the league's master plan.


So,after 3 or 4 months of hopeless incompetence he gets invited to carry on the good work? Words fail me!


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## the 12th man (Apr 19, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> So,after 3 or 4 months of hopeless incompetence he gets invited to carry on the good work? Words fail me!



In the words of Fletch "Orrible Ives"


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## Roger D (May 8, 2021)

Ollie Bayliss is reporting the EGM is scheduled for May 26th. I say scheduled as he also reports those who moved it are now consulting lawyers, trying to ascertain whether the league's proposed format is legal.

Unbelievable.


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## Pink Panther (May 8, 2021)

Roger D said:


> Ollie Bayliss is reporting the EGM is scheduled for May 26th. I say scheduled as he also reports those who moved it are now consulting lawyers, trying to ascertain whether the league's proposed format is legal.
> 
> Unbelievable.


It's almost as if the League's management board is trying to dictate to its member clubs, rather than serving their best interests.


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## Roger D (May 26, 2021)

As expected the no confidence motion fails.

National 0 for, 21 against, 2 abstain
North 16 for, 4 against, 2 abstain
South 17 for 4 against

Figures reported by Ollie Bayliss


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## StephenMac (May 26, 2021)

Ridiculous business. So even that loon at Dover didn't vote in favour.

Reckon I could take a decent punt at the four in NLS who voted against even if I don't remotely understand their motivations.


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## Roger D (May 26, 2021)

National League statement, as posted on the Shots website





__





						National League Statement: EGM | Aldershot Town FC
					

An Extraordinary General Meeting has been held by The National League today at the request of 14 Member Clubs. The meeting was called for all Member Clubs to consider and vote on the resolution: “The meeting has no confidence in the Chairman and the Board”. The voting results were as follows...




					www.theshots.co.uk


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## Pink Panther (May 26, 2021)

Roger D said:


> National League statement, as posted on the Shots website
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Outrageous propaganda. The "result" isn't remotely "convincing". The League politburo might have the result it wanted but whichever way you look at it, half their member clubs supported a vote of no confidence and several more failed to vote against.


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## AveryDave (May 27, 2021)

Should imagine they’ll use this as a green light to continue doing whatever they want to under the guise of their ridiculous rules.

As long as they keep the Step One clubs at heel, clubs in Step Two are basically irrelevant.


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## KPMG (May 27, 2021)

Hasn’t a formal (government?) enquiry been launched into the management of the National League, or is it my wishful thinking?


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## Roger D (May 27, 2021)

There's a review into football governance commissioned by the government.

Tracey Crouch is leading, she knows the club well so may be interested in dropping into governance this low down the food chain. However: I think we can safely assume most of the committee's work will be focused far higher up the food chain.

Whatever happens, the report won't say X is incompetent and must go. The league is private company and who it employs is none of the government's business. Any changes will be more governance oriented, which may still impact.

However given the League Board are spinning a vote when half the votes went against them as a triumph, it seems fairly clear they have no intention of changing anything unless forced to.  Southport have a representative on the nine person committee undertaking the investigation. They seemed to 'get it' last season so hopefully they can make sure governance lower down is covered off.

Here's hoping the clubs can complete 2021/22. I dread to think of the consequences for clubs if we get a repeat of last season with the same bunch in control.


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## Roger D (Jun 4, 2021)

Maidstone are looking to input to the Tracey Crouch inquiry.









						Time for change
					

Maidstone United have joined a group of clubs working to improve football governance.



					www.kentonline.co.uk


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## Roger D (Jun 15, 2021)

All appeals against fines for non fulfillment big fixtures have been rejected. £250 appeal fee forfeited and expenses to be paid.

All eyes on Dover now as they have stated they were insolvent if the fine was enforced.


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## Noss (Jun 15, 2021)

Appeal lost and costs awarded against


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## Roger D (Jun 15, 2021)

According to point 16.1 part of the Hamlet appeal was the club is insolvent was the fine was imposed.

Edited to say it's £1600 costs and the £250 appeal fee forfeited. Costs to be paid inside 30 days.


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## Noss (Jun 15, 2021)

.


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## AveryDave (Jun 15, 2021)

Given their performance to date, sadly and depressingly unsurprising. Pretty much the model of corruption dressed up as governance.


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## Nivag (Jun 15, 2021)

Getting kicked in the balls when already on the ground


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## StephenMac (Jun 15, 2021)

If we don't have at least one easily learnt song about Mark Ives and this peposterous league bellowed out at every game this coming season then it will be a wasted one.


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## editor (Jun 15, 2021)

I'd honestly rather us drop down a league and distance ourselves from these shitehawks.


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## AveryDave (Jun 15, 2021)

editor said:


> I'd honestly rather us drop down a league and distance ourselves from these shitehawks.


Does feel like that at the moment. With multiple teams spending a fortune trying to get promoted each season, survival feels like the best we can aim for - and survival means remaining at the whim of the League who have zero interest in any club at Step Two until they get promoted.


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## editor (Jun 15, 2021)

AveryDave said:


> Does feel like that at the moment. With multiple teams spending a fortune trying to get promoted each season, survival feels like the best we can aim for - and survival means remaining at the whim of the League who have zero interest in any club at Step Two until they get promoted.


To be honest, I enjoyed just about every part of the matchday experience more when we were in the lower divisions.


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## Roger D (Jun 16, 2021)

Dover have blinked and confirmed they are playing on. Jim Parmenter has had some strong words to say about the appeal process and verdict.


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## pompeydunc (Jun 18, 2021)

It appears that Steps 3 and 4 are taking a pragmatic approach to next season, which would stop any football being played if supporters are not permitted, unless there is grant funding from the government (there won't be).  They are also putting plans in place to manage promotion and relegation, if the season can't be concluded with various options in terms of foreshortened seasons.  Isthmian statement here - AGM Statement regarding.

I have not seen any planning from The National League of this sort.  Has anyone heard anything?!


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## Roger D (Jun 18, 2021)

Last I heard the league said they had a plan but weren't able to produce it. I suspect they would want to be broadly aligned with Steps 3 and 4 but probably need EFL sign off to ensure promotion / relegation to that body isn't scrapped.

I can't believe they won't have something up for FA consideration ahead of the relevant date. Failure to do so would be a gift to the 'rebel' clubs.


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## Roger D (Jun 18, 2021)

Can't find the news in writing but have received a text telling me Ollie Bayliss has been successful in his complaint to the ICO re DCMS not releasing details of the meetings about National League funding.


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## Pink Panther (Jun 18, 2021)

Hamlet chairman not impressed with the National League:









						Dulwich Hamlet chairman’s reaction as they face £10k bill after attempt to overturn National League punishment ends in failure
					

Dulwich Hamlet chairman Ben Clasper has hit out after an FA independent appeal board upheld their £8,000 fine for not fulfilling fixtures during the Covid-19 pandemic.




					londonnewsonline.co.uk


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## pinknblue (Jun 18, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> Hamlet chairman not impressed with the National League:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm.... We all know The National League board are not fit for purpose, but failing to submit the appropriate financial records at an FA appeal hearing is a pretty shoddy effort by the club. Why on earth should we expect the league to provide information to an independent panel that is going to allow that panel to overturn the league's decision? Bonkers!!


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## Pink Panther (Jun 19, 2021)

pinknblue said:


> Hmmm.... We all know The National League board are not fit for purpose, but failing to submit the appropriate financial records at an FA appeal hearing is a pretty shoddy effort by the club. Why on earth should we expect the league to provide information to an independent panel that is going to allow that panel to overturn the league's decision? Bonkers!!


It does sound like  the club has been naive from reading that article, but 10 other clubs had their appeals dismissed too.  Was every one of those clubs incapable of submitting a coherent and effective case?  This is a report on Dover's failed appeal:









						Parmenter: FA have failed us
					

Jim Parmenter says Dover have been failed by the football authorities after their appeal against a £40,000 fine and 12-point deduction was rejected.




					www.kentonline.co.uk
				




As Ben Clasper points out, the National League is now led by a CEO with 20 years experience as an FA compliance officer and he knows how to fight a case like this on technicalities without paying any real heed to the valid concerns of those appealing.  Their argument is that there was no good reason for us not to fulfil fixtures despite having had no income for several weeks, and no prospect of being able to generate any income anytime soon.  A total of 11 clubs had their appeals dismissed last week, with not one having its appeal upheld.  

Three clubs had their fines and suspended points deductions halved in return for accepting all charges against them.  It was widely reported beforehand that any club accepting the charges would have its sanctions reduced by 50%.  Addressing a shareholders meeting last month, Clasper told Hamlet supporters that an official had told him verbally and off the record that the remaining 50% of the £8,000 fine could be conveniently overlooked and would not actually be levied if he accepted the charges.  This is alluded to in Paragraph 17 of the document on the FA website relating to Dulwich Hamlet's appeal, which is linked below.  Needless to say the National league now denies any such offer was made.  



			https://www.thefa.com/news/2021/jun/15/appeal-board-decisions-150621
		


This corrupt organization will do anything to sweep its own incompetence under the carpet, kick any damning evidence into the long grass (i.e. the Bernstein report into the division of lottery finding among member clubs) and carry on as normal. Trying to get any sort of justice or reform with these bastards is like trying to fight a fair election in Belarus or Zimbabwe.


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## pinknblue (Jun 23, 2021)

Pink Panther said:


> It does sound like  the club has been naive from reading that article, but 10 other clubs had their appeals dismissed too.  Was every one of those clubs incapable of submitting a coherent and effective case?  This is a report on Dover's failed appeal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post, PP. I didn't think my opinion of the NL board could possibly get any lower, but it just has!


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## Pink Panther (Jul 29, 2021)

Proper scrutiny of National League incompetence and corruption still being obstructed:


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## Roger D (Jul 29, 2021)

To be honest that makes me suspicious DCMS.are covering something up. If the minutes backed up.their version of events they'd cheerfully release the minutes. 

Could it be the minutes contain something that backs up the league's version of what they were promised?


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## AveryDave (Jul 29, 2021)

Could be a case that neither would be covered in glory, and so an entente cordiale of ineptitude has been reached - can’t say I’ve got a lot of faith in either side.


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## scousedom (Sep 14, 2021)

Quite a nice sign that I had to look for this thread halfway down the second page. Sorry for bumping it back up...

Just skimming the just-announced Government Covid plans.


			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1017404/COVID-19-response-autumn-and-winter-plan-2021.pdf
		


Page 24 has a section on restrictions under the "Plan B" scenario (basically measures brought in if the NHS looks like getting overwhelmed).

Mandatory Vaccine-only COVID-status Certification Settings Under Plan B, the Government expects that mandatory vaccine-only certification would be introduced for visitors to the following venues:
● All nightclubs;
● Indoor, crowded settings with 500 or more attendees where those attendees are likely to be in close proximity to people from other households, such as music venues or large receptions;
● Outdoor, crowded settings with 4,000 or more attendees where those attendees are likely to be in close proximity to people from other households, such as outdoor festivals; and
● Any settings with 10,000 or more attendees, such as large sports and music stadia.
There are some settings that will be exempt from requirements to use the NHS COVID Pass, including communal worship, wedding ceremonies, funerals and other commemorative events, protests and mass participation sporting events.

Implication I suppose is that even under that scenario DHFC wouldn't be affected by needing to check for vaccine status. And from there the further implication might also be that no reduction of capacity would come in - it's not mentioned anywhere that I can see.

Of course, there's no telling what would happen under Plan C, D, E...


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