# China Mieville talk - London, 2nd OCtober



## temper_tantrum (Sep 26, 2011)

Anyone else going to this? At the Royal Society on Sunday. £4 entrance.

http://royalsociety.org/exhibitions/one-culture/china-mieville/

I *might* have a spare ticket - booked for 3, but not sure if both the people I've invited want to go.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

I demand that you record it on your phone and upload it to youtube for me


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

LOL i note the advert is using the lean hungry pre-pies era photo of China


----------



## andy2002 (Sep 26, 2011)

Would love to go to this (China's as entertaining in the flesh as he is in print) but will be working, alas.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 26, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I demand that you record it on your phone and upload it to youtube for me



I was waiting to see how long it took for you to show up on this thread  
If I get a chance, do you want me to get him to sign something for you, or would that be crass?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Sep 26, 2011)

No. Not even if he was speaking in my shed. I took Perdido Street Station on holiday because Dottie raced about Mieville so. Motley was synedochal for the whole book, which was over-large, bad humoured and comprised of several chunks of books from many different genres, welded together by a steampunk Moreau.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

that doesn't make it sound less awesome maurice


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh Maurice


----------



## Stigmata (Sep 26, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> No. Not even if he was speaking in my shed. I took Perdido Street Station on holiday because Dottie raced about Mieville so. Motley was synedochal for the whole book, which was over-large, bad humoured and comprised of several chunks of books from many different genres, welded together by a steampunk Moreau.



But then he wrote _The City & the City_, and all his sins were washed away


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> I was waiting to see how long it took for you to show up on this thread
> If I get a chance, do you want me to get him to sign something for you, or would that be crass?



nah, I don't do autographs tbh although I have collected them for others. ta anyway


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

Stigmata said:


> But then he wrote _The City & the City_, and all his sins were washed away


 
just re read that as me crapper literature. Schrodingers pedestrian still makes my brain go 'wow'


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 26, 2011)

So I'm just asking him for his phone number for my own personal purposes, right?


----------



## wayward bob (Sep 26, 2011)

i only know him as un lun dun was recommended on here as good kid reading. kid1 devoured it and said it was the best book she'd ever read  are any of his others suitable for an 8yo?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

not really. Un Lun Dun is his only childrens book. She might like niel gaimans neverwhere, but that is probably got to many adult themes.


----------



## Stigmata (Sep 26, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> just re read that as me crapper literature. Schrodingers pedestrian still makes my brain go 'wow'



I would emigrate there for realz. Beszel, rather than Ul Qoma


----------



## wayward bob (Sep 26, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> not really. Un Lun Dun is his only childrens book. She might like niel gaimans neverwhere, but that is probably got to many adult themes.



adult themes in what way?


----------



## scifisam (Sep 26, 2011)

Ooh, I'd be up for that. I haven't read much by him, but I have read some, and I need to add the Royal Society to my list. Naturally it'd also be nice to meet you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

wayward bob said:


> adult themes in what way?


 
the main characters relationship with his pushy girlfriend, drinking, scary gruesome bits. Depends how precocious a reader yer 8yo is I suppose. It's not aimed at that age group but it is a good Other London fantasy


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 26, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> the main characters relationship with his pushy girlfriend, drinking, scary gruesome bits. Depends how precocious a reader yer 8yo is I suppose. It's not aimed at that age group but it is a good Other London fantasy



He really could have cut all that girlfriend stuff back massively, imo. It became wearing.


----------



## wayward bob (Sep 26, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> the main characters relationship with his pushy girlfriend, drinking, scary gruesome bits. Depends how precocious a reader yer 8yo is I suppose. It's not aimed at that age group but it is a good Other London fantasy



hmm scary gruesome bits sounds like nightmare material


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 26, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> He really could have cut all that girlfriend stuff back massively, imo. It became wearing.


 
there was a whiff of the Mary Sue about it iyswim


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 27, 2011)

Bumped for the day crew ...


----------



## fractionMan (Sep 27, 2011)

I accidently un lun dun myself. Bloody kids book


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 28, 2011)

Royal Society does podcast its lectures. But not sure if this will be podcast. Can u ask TTantrum?


----------



## andy2002 (Sep 30, 2011)

Sci-Fi Now magazine are offering a FREE download of China's 'Iron Council' audiobook. Details here: http://www.scifinow.co.uk/blog/free-china-mieville-audio-book/


----------



## Thraex (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks for this. They've closed the online ticket sales now, but say 4 pounds on the door. I think I shall pop along to this. Have enjoyed most of what I've read of his. I'll probably finish The Iron Council tonight.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2011)

The most lolsome clue to Chinas political background in Iron Council has to be the details of Rungate Rampant, a thinly disguised version of the Socialist Worker.


----------



## Itziko (Sep 30, 2011)

@Maurice Picarda - all art is a reinvention of stuff that came before, nobody is inventing things form scratch, art shows new angles to old themse and plots and good art makes them feel fresh again. Just as we all cook with the same ingredients, but produce different cuisines.

I always feel frustrated with China Mieville and finish his books pining for more substance and better characters I can relate to. I love his imagination to create other worlds, but his characters are always so hard to feel sympathy for. I think all stories are character lead: you either feel for their tribulations, or you don't. I don't engage with the characters in his novels like I do for Philip Pullman's Lyra, for example, who feels very real and close. It's a shame, because I really, really would love it if Mieville's books had this dimension that makes for good story telling. Do others feel the same, or are happy to read descriptions of amazingly weird places?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 30, 2011)

Itziko said:


> @Maurice Picarda - all art is a reinvention of stuff that came before, nobody is inventing things form scratch, art shows new angles to old themse and plots and good art makes them feel fresh again. Just as we all cook with the same ingredients, but produce different cuisines.
> 
> I always feel frustrated with China Mieville and finish his books pining for more substance and better characters I can relate to. I love his imagination to create other worlds, but his characters are always so hard to feel sympathy for. I think all stories are character lead: you either feel for their tribulations, or you don't. I don't engage with the characters in his novels like I do for Philip Pullman's Lyra, for example, who feels very real and close. It's a shame, because I really, really would love it if Mieville's books had this dimension that makes for good story telling. Do others feel the same, or are happy to read descriptions of amazingly weird places?



Not into Pullman but yes I do like reading the descriptions of weird places. A lot of sci fi does this rather than tradtional character driven plots. Also he says he prefers Peakes Gormenghast to Tolkiens the Lord of the Rings. I need to try again but lack of sympathy for the characters meant i couldnt really get into Peake unlike Tolkien. Might try again as I think he is influence on Mieville.

One sci fi writer who can do both is Kim Stanley Robinson (Mars Trilogy) . He works in realist style. Hoever all his descriptions are based in the Mars Trilogy on science rather than fantasy.

I want to read Iron Council- and see his views on revolution.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 30, 2011)

_Perdido Street Station_ is very first-booky. It has terrific energy and millions of ideas and a driving plot and a good ending but the writing doesn't quite hold it all together. While PSS is definitely worth reading I'd say _The Scar_ was his book that has the best writing combined with theme, plot and imagination.

The basic idea behind _Iron Council_ is good but I'm afraid I found it slightly plodding to read.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 30, 2011)

Thats a pity. Still I will give it a go

I liked The Scar as well.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Sep 30, 2011)

I would love to go to the talk, hope it is downloadable.  I've read everything he's written except Un Lun Don and Embassytown, which has been sitting on my book pile for weeks while I've been ploughing through the Game of Thrones books.  DC have you read his thesis, I seem to remember you have or was that a dream?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2011)

Between Equal Rights. Yes I've read a bit of it. I have an e copy that is incomplete


----------



## temper_tantrum (Oct 1, 2011)

I will ask if they're going to record it for the web, if I get a chance, and let y'all know 

Can I take this opportunity to slag off Philip Pullman again?  I just don't get him, sorry. Bearing that in mind, I obviously think Mieville is better than Pullman. 'City & The City' is the best, in my opinion, but I haven't read all of his stuff yet so my judgement is incomplete. Need to finish 'Perdido St Station', got sidetracked by Antony Beevor recently ...

Edit: DC, I'd love to have a look at his thesis, can you either point me towards it, or email me a copy, or somesuch? 

Edit again: Itziko, if you haven't tried 'City & The City' yet, you can borrow my copy if you like  - on condition that you gimme back that copy of 'Free Women Of Spain' which I lent you aaaaaaaaaaaaages ago


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Between-Equal-Rights-International-Materialism/dp/1931859337

I downloaded 10 books from that historical materialism series in a job lot and the only one that turned out to be fragmented was China's thesis 
Hence I've only read a bit of it. The series does include a good one on western marxism and the soviet union


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> I will ask if they're going to record it for the web, if I get a chance, and let y'all know
> 
> Can I take this opportunity to slag off Philip Pullman again?  I just don't get him, sorry. Bearing that in mind, I obviously think Mieville is better than Pullman. 'City & The City' is the best, in my opinion, but I haven't read all of his stuff yet so my judgement is incomplete. Need to finish 'Perdido St Station', got sidetracked by Antony Beevor recently ...
> 
> ...


 
China dissed pullmans HDM a bit in an interview I read- something about the cop out nature of it, from the ending. You know, worlds seperate, teenage romance moves to adult responsibility and the world spins right again. He didn't use the sneer 'liberal' but you got the impression he was driving at that.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm going to sound like a real philistine if I say that it read to me like Harry Potter for grownups, aren't I  
It just didn't resonate with me - the themes he was exploring felt tired. It reminded me of those other psuedo-philosophical novels aimed at older teens, from the last couple of decades, which are more about chin-rubbing pontification than actual thought. The usual 'radical' pop at religion. And more wanking over 'Paradise Lost'. 
<awaits a slating from Pullman fans>


----------



## Itziko (Oct 1, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> China dissed pullmans HDM a bit in an interview I read- something about the cop out nature of it, from the ending. You know, worlds seperate, teenage romance moves to adult responsibility and the world spins right again. He didn't use the sneer 'liberal' but you got the impression he was driving at that.



He's just jealous that PP is a better writer, with more engaging characters 



temper_tantrum said:


> Edit again: Itziko, if you haven't tried 'City & The City' yet, you can borrow my copy if you like - on condition that you gimme back that copy of 'Free Women Of Spain' which I lent you aaaaaaaaaaaaages ago



*Coughs!* and not only did I finish it aaaages ago, i have my own copy too, and bought one to give a Spanish friend as well 


temper_tantrum said:


> I'm going to sound like a real philistine if I say that it read to me like Harry Potter for grownups, aren't I



But that's what they are, and nothing wring with it. I certainly didn't read HDM for its deep philosophy, but I much rather have a children's author who disses organized religion, than one who justifies it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2011)

I don't think it is 'for grown ups' in any sense of the phrase any more than the Narnia books are really FOR grown ups- I enjoyed HDM because it was good writing, it had armoured bears, a heroine with pluck etc etc. All the good tropes I associate with a solid fantasy series, peril- QUESTS! heroes and villains etc.

The wider analysis is always an after-the-fact thing with me personally if the writing is good. If the writing is bad I get bored and start despising the authors motivations before I have finished the book. See: Thomas Covenant novels. Whiny rapist anti-hero main character, god awful twee shite


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Oct 1, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> _Perdido Street Station_ is very first-booky. It has terrific energy and millions of ideas and a driving plot and a good ending but the writing doesn't quite hold it all together. While PSS is definitely worth reading I'd say _The Scar_ was his book that has the best writing combined with theme, plot and imagination.
> 
> The basic idea behind _Iron Council_ is good but I'm afraid I found it slightly plodding to read.


"The Scar" has been my favourite in terms of charicterisation and story, Bellis Coldwine and Uther Doul I found very engaging. However "The City and The City" I loved because it had me looking, and un-looking, at the streets around me and I found the concept just brilliant and kind of mind-blowing, though the charactersation is, imo, lost a little bit within that.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Oct 1, 2011)

Itziko said:


> *Coughs!* and not only did I finish it aaaages ago, i have my own copy too, and bought one to give a Spanish friend as well



 Glad you liked it 




			
				Itziko said:
			
		

> But that's what they are, and nothing wring with it. I certainly didn't read HDM for its deep philosophy, but I much rather have a children's author who disses organized religion, than one who justifies it.



Oh for sure, I just didn't find them a compelling read in the way which so many other people seemed to.



DotCommunist said:


> armoured bears







QueenOfGoths said:


> ... though the charactersation is, imo, lost a little bit within that.



The characterisation in 'C&tC' worked for me, because I approached it as a crime/detective novel primarily, and the characterisation was very similar to a lot of other books in that genre. Not saying that crime books tend to have poor characterisation (  ), just that the way characters are introduced and how they evolve is very much done within the 'solving a mystery' context, does that make any sense?!
So for detective-novel characters, I thought they were quite good. For fantasy-novel characters, maybe not so much, but I've read less fantasy fiction than probably most on this thread, so I'm less able to judge ...


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2011)

QueenOfGoths said:


> "The Scar" has been my favourite in terms of charicterisation and story, Bellis Coldwine and Uther Doul I found very engaging. However "The City and The City" I loved because it had me looking, and un-looking, at the streets around me and I found the concept just brilliant and kind of mind-blowing, though the charactersation is, imo, lost a little bit within that.


 
There was only one real character in that book- Beszel/Ul Quoma.

Borlu and the rest were all ciphers doing a detective story in that irreal city. Thats half Chinas genius. It is his living cityscapes that resonate long after characters have faded from memory.

He failed this task in Embassytown, or at least didn't hold up to previous standards. It is a nice little conciet and an entertaining enough bit of sci fi but it doesn't make the city live and wthout that his writing doesn't shine. imho


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Oct 1, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> The characterisation in 'C&tC' worked for me, because I approached it as a crime/detective novel primarily, and the characterisation was very similar to a lot of other books in that genre. Not saying that crime books tend to have poor characterisation (  ), just that the way characters are introduced and how they evolve is very much done within the 'solving a mystery' context, does that make any sense?!
> So for detective-novel characters, I thought they were quite good. For fantasy-novel characters, maybe not so much, but I've read less fantasy fiction than probably most on this thread, so I'm less able to judge ...



That makes sense  And it is a brilliant read.

I must start "Iron Council" again. Started it sometime ago but for some reason wasn't in the mood for it then.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Oct 1, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> There was only one real character in that book- Beszel/Ul Quoma.
> 
> Borlu and the rest were all ciphers doing a detective story in that irreal city. Thats half Chinas genius. It is his living cityscapes that resonate long after characters have faded from memory



This is the moment where Dotcom starts spunking on about psychogeography, I think ...


----------



## temper_tantrum (Oct 2, 2011)

It wasn't recorded, I'm afraid.
Good, though 
Anyone else go?


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 2, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> He failed this task in Embassytown, or at least didn't hold up to previous standards. It is a nice little conciet and an entertaining enough bit of sci fi but it doesn't make the city live and wthout that his writing doesn't shine. imho



The book wasn't about the place, it was about the Hosts


----------



## bi0boy (Apr 12, 2012)

Not _all_ of his books need to be about the city do they?


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 12, 2012)

Itziko said:


> He's just jealous that PP is a better writer, with more engaging characters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have hated meiville since I saw him at a marxism, taking an elitist and snide attack on pratchett for being popular. He seems to be just as snurgy about pullman.
Far too self important for a run of the mill hack Scifi writer desperately in need of a decent and severe editor.


----------



## andy2002 (Apr 13, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> I have hated meiville since I saw him at a marxism, taking an elitist and snide attack on pratchett for being popular. He seems to be just as snurgy about pullman.
> Far too self important for a run of the mill hack Scifi writer desperately in need of a decent and severe editor.


 
He doesn't like Pratchett because he's "popular"?! That seems a bit unlikely - there must be more to it. What did China say exactly?


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 14, 2012)

I tried to find the talk on rmp3 s site but they don't go back that far, I asked CM about what he thought of pratchett, he said that he had tried to read one once but had given up on it,  and described pratchett simply popular escapism, which is an odd critisism for a sci fi writer, this was in the early 2000s when he had only perdido released.
Tbf I got the impression that he was upset at having another writer praise in a meeting which was supposed to be about him.


----------



## andy2002 (Apr 14, 2012)

Whenever I've seen Mieville on panels and in interviews he comes across as very ego-free and inclusive, so that's a bit disappointing really.


----------



## zoooo (Apr 15, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> I asked CM about what he thought of pratchett, he said that he had tried to read one once but had given up on it


That's exactly what I did when I tried to read Mieville's 'Un Lun Dun'.

Ooh a man made of bees, ooh and a talking umbrella. Meh. Just being quirky for the sake of it.
But then I don't generally enjoy fantasy, so maybe it was the genre's fault rather than Mieville's.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2012)

its a childrens book


----------



## Termite Man (Apr 15, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> I have hated meiville since I saw him at a marxism, taking an elitist and snide attack on pratchett for being popular.


 
there is a big difference between not liking something because it's popular and not liking something because it's written to BE popular.


----------



## zoooo (Apr 15, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> its a childrens book


Yes, I'm aware of that! I read a lot of Young Adult and children's fiction.
The book only really got going about half way through (and it's a long book). If I had been a kid reading it I would have given up long before I did.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 15, 2012)

Tediously hypocritical bourgeois nonsense - I both used to know China as a teenager and am a lawyer so I'm somewhat more qualified than most to pass judgment on his profoundly dull writing/opinions.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

Diamond said:


> Tediously hypocritical bourgeois nonsense - I both used to know China as a teenager and am a lawyer so I'm somewhat more qualified than most to pass judgment on his profoundly dull writing/opinions.


Have you read his Pashukanis influenced book on international law then? Assuming that this is why you mentioned that you are a lawyer.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2012)

zoooo said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that! I read a lot of Young Adult and children's fiction.
> The book only really got going about half way through (and it's a long book). If I had been a kid reading it I would have given up long before I did.


 

It's aimed at 8-11 YO's if I recall correctly.

And there are pretty illustrations in it.

And it isn't that long really. 

Although I can't really judge how kid would take it, I enjoyed it as a bit of whimsy. Neverwhere comparison ennit.


----------



## zoooo (Apr 15, 2012)

It's 520 pages. It has a few small sketches that take up about an inch of the page scattered here and there, sparingly. That's a long book.

But I'm sure his adult fiction may be different. I'm only passing judgement on this one book, not his entire career.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Apr 15, 2012)

Diamond said:


> Tediously hypocritical bourgeois nonsense - I both used to know China as a teenager and am a lawyer so I'm somewhat more qualified than most to pass judgment on his profoundly dull writing/opinions.



What does being a lawyer have to do with anything?


----------



## Termite Man (Apr 15, 2012)

ChrisFilter said:


> What does being a lawyer have to do with anything?


it means he's  a cunt whos opinion on things can safely be ignored


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2012)

Diamond said:


> ...
> and am a lawyer so I'm somewhat more qualified than most to pass judgment
> ...


 
You can't tell.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

Diamond said:


> Tediously hypocritical bourgeois nonsense - I both used to know China as a teenager and am a lawyer so I'm somewhat more qualified than most to pass judgment on his profoundly dull writing/opinions.


 
Giving the profession a bad name here.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Giving the profession a bad name here.


 
By thinking that Mieville is a blowhard?

Laughable...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

Maybe he means that the lack of substance to your post(s) or possibly the apparent belief that lawyers rather than judges or juries pass judgement is not very lawyerly?


----------



## Diamond (Apr 15, 2012)

Ha!

It'd be a mighty strange world if only judges and/or juries passed judgement. 99.99999% of urban wouldn't even exist for starters...


----------



## temper_tantrum (Apr 26, 2012)

Bump - he's speaking at this event, China fans:

http://www.lrbshop.co.uk/product.php?productid=56882&cat=0&page=1


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 26, 2012)

Mieville must be the muscliest trot to have ever existed!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2012)

ha gone to pies a bit nowadays mind.


----------



## idumea (Apr 26, 2012)

I reckon I'm going to the LRB event.


----------

