# Brixton Central Square - Thread the Seventh



## lang rabbie (Jan 9, 2009)

After the heady anticipation buillt up over six whole previous threads since 2004: 
- Tate Gardens/Brixton Central Square 
- Effra Road/Windrush Square update
- Brixton Central Square 
- Brixton Central Square - Reconsultation 
- Time for another Brixton Central Square thread 
- Brixton Central Square

and guest appearances in another 23 threads since 2003, during which time I have argued unsuccessfully that "the beast must die" 

Transport for London have finally announced the  construction timetable for Brixton Central Square....




			
				TfL Public Notice - page 40 of South London Press Friday January 9 said:
			
		

> *New Roads and Street Works Act 1991
> Notice of Substantial Works for Road Purposes*
> 
> 1.  Three months advance notice is herby given that TfL intends to carry out substantial works for road purposes.
> ...


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## quimcunx (Jan 9, 2009)

A year and a half?


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Are we getting the original garden back, pretty please?


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## Gramsci (Jan 11, 2009)

No as we are all "moving on" to a giant sqaure that will put Brixton on the map.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 11, 2009)

Some massive bit of concrete with nothing on it would be shit.  I wonder if they are still going to build a cafe?  Over winter we spent time in Croatia (as we often do) and there each town/village has pjaca (piazza) or square - generally lined with bars and cafes.  It's a real place for people to gather and on NYE, for example, that's where the celebrations happened.  Also every day at "tea" time you'd see everyone out having tea/coffee/wine etc.  A real community focal point.  I'd love for there to be something like that in Brixton.


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## lang rabbie (Jan 11, 2009)

Did anything come from Lambeth's design competition last year for ideas about a cafe?  The competition was announced back in the spring but then it all went very quiet.

The earlier feasibility study by MAKE architects included some ridiculously funky but wildly impractical ideas for making use of the former loos.


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## Bob (Jan 12, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> Some massive bit of concrete with nothing on it would be shit.  I wonder if they are still going to build a cafe?  Over winter we spent time in Croatia (as we often do) and there each town/village has pjaca (piazza) or square - generally lined with bars and cafes.  It's a real place for people to gather and on NYE, for example, that's where the celebrations happened.  Also every day at "tea" time you'd see everyone out having tea/coffee/wine etc.  A real community focal point.  I'd love for there to be something like that in Brixton.



I think the key for those things working is the cafes etc. In Britain we have a horrible tendency to build public spaces with no businesses built in - a classic example of course is the current Windrush Square - which is utterly pointless.


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## ajdown (Jan 12, 2009)

Bob said:


> a classic example of course is the current Windrush Square - which is utterly pointless.



It's nothing more than a bit of grass that sometimes gets a tent stuck on it when they hold an event there.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 12, 2009)

Bob said:


> I think the key for those things working is the cafes etc. In Britain we have a horrible tendency to build public spaces with no businesses built in - a classic example of course is the current Windrush Square - which is utterly pointless.



That's exactly my point!  At least Windrush Square is green though - it'd be even worse if it was just an equally pointless bit of concrete!!


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## userfruct (Jan 14, 2009)

There was much talk a future cafe on windrush Square during various public meetings about Brixton  Square 2/3 yrs ago. A daytime cafe with removable tables and chairs was draft plans.  Not sure what went into the final version but it will be a debate between surveillance 'wanting to design out people and they provide cover for drug dealers' school of thought and the community 'lets design in people as it is safer and provides a community public space' school of thought.
There was talk of it being a community run cafe. Not sure where current council thinking is on it though.  In an ideal world Black Cultural Archives in Raleigh Hall would open up the front to Windrush Square by removing the wall and railings and have lots of cafe seating outside and welcoming people in to the national BCA the and linking the Hall back into Windush Sq.  So there would be two cafes on the Square, hopefully a lot quieter when the road use changes around Effra Road and there are less cars. A nice place to sit out on a summers day.


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm not convinced I'd want to sit outside down the bottom of the hill anywhere for any extended period apart from waiting for a bus.

Unless they can put in lots of greenery and make it feel not like a grotty urban area with all the noise and pollution that being next to a major road entails, and get rid of all the drug dealers and alcoholics that hang around down there.


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## RushcroftRoader (Jan 14, 2009)

A large square with a cafe or two would be fantastic. I agree that Windrush Square is a poorly lit dog poo covered waste of space. A nice environment would help to send the dealers packing as well. The space has such huge potential.


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

How far away/deep down is the Effra?  It'd be really nice if they could "open up" a stretch of that to make a feature.


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## netbob (Jan 14, 2009)

ajdown said:


> How far away/deep down is the Effra?  It'd be really nice if they could "open up" a stretch of that to make a feature.



You know its a sewer dont you?


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

It's a bit further east, under coldharbour.
Storm sewer though isn't it, not foul?


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## newbie (Jan 14, 2009)

userfruct said:


> A nice place to sit out on a summers day.



what about on a chilly, foggy day in January, like today.



hello and welcome, btw


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## newbie (Jan 14, 2009)

RushcroftRoader said:


> A large square with a cafe or two would be fantastic.



would it?  I'm very very doubtful that a non-central space like that could pick up the momentum to become a popular and useful place to eat, drink and meet.  There are plenty of cafes already in much more central positions that people walk past while shopping etc.  Why would anyone want to walk out of the centre in order to sit just there?


tbh after the last few weeks I've been thinking that with a bit of tweaking that space could become busstops, which would make far, far more difference to the majority than a cafe that'll inevitably be targetted at a tiny minority.


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## Winot (Jan 14, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'm not convinced I'd want to sit outside down the bottom of the hill anywhere for any extended period apart from waiting for a bus.
> 
> Unless they can put in lots of greenery and make it feel not like a grotty urban area with all the noise and pollution that being next to a major road entails...



Unless it's bicycles on the roads rather than cars...


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> Some massive bit of concrete with nothing on it would be shit.  I wonder if they are still going to build a cafe?  Over winter we spent time in Croatia (as we often do) and there each town/village has pjaca (piazza) or square - generally lined with bars and cafes.  It's a real place for people to gather and on NYE, for example, that's where the celebrations happened.  Also every day at "tea" time you'd see everyone out having tea/coffee/wine etc.  A real community focal point.  I'd love for there to be something like that in Brixton.



You do have to bear in mind the difference climate makes, though.

Also, I think you have to be realistic about exactly what kind of place Brixton is and who would actually partake in a "cafe culture". Brixton is a shopping centre of sorts, but it's not as if it's the Kings road or Marylebone High Street. Most of the people who shop in Brixton in the daytime, I would imagine, are not really the affluent types who are likely to sit down with their bags and pay for a cup of coffee in a cafe on the square. I'm not saying there wouldn't be anyone but I'd be sceptical if there'd be enough to make it viable.

The town centre is a busy one of course but this is largely due to it being a transport interchange and therefore many of the people are just passing through and not really inclined to stop and spend time sitting around. Actually I quite like the suggestion above that the space could be reorganised to make more room for bus stops: this would give the space a meaningful purpose (many public spaces fail simply because they don't have a "purpose") and could potentially make the experience of waiting for a bus more pleasant than it is at the moment.

Ajdown makes his predictably stupid comments about clearing away "drug dealers and alcoholics" to somewhere else that he doesn't have to look at them. Personally I don't have a problem with the fact that the existing space is used by these "undesirables" and I would be perfectly happy with any redesign making space for them to carry on about their business without causing any great amount of hassle for anyone else, much as they do at the moment.

I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea of trying to impose "cafe culture" on Brixton... Brixton just isn't a "cafe culture" kind of place and I don't think it would benefit particularly from trying to become one. 

I would like to see a square redesign that understands the way in which Brixton town centre functions at the moment, and tries to allow those activities to be carried out in a more enjoyable way, rather than trying to make it do something that it doesn't really want to.

By the way I think that it should also be born in mind that Brockwell Park exists nearby. This is significant because for most people living in Brixton, if they fancy going and sitting outside in the sun for a bit, they will go to the park which of course has its own cafe and other facilities. If the park wasn't there, and Brixton was one of those parts of town which suffers from a lack of public green space, then the functions that a central square could potentially provide for would be rather different.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

have only just seen this

A year and a fucking half?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'm not convinced I'd want to sit outside down the bottom of the hill anywhere for any extended period apart from waiting for a bus.
> 
> Unless they can put in lots of greenery and make it feel not like a grotty urban area with all the noise and pollution that being next to a major road entails, and get rid of all the drug dealers and alcoholics that hang around down there.


 

Exactly, considering Brixton Hill is apparently one of the most polluted roads in London, would you really want to sit there drinking your coffee in a smoke-free cafe


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

teuchter said:


> You do have to bear in mind the difference climate makes, though.
> 
> Also, I think you have to be realistic about exactly what kind of place Brixton is and who would actually partake in a "cafe culture". Brixton is a shopping centre of sorts, but it's not as if it's the Kings road or Marylebone High Street. Most of the people who shop in Brixton in the daytime, I would imagine, are not really the affluent types who are likely to sit down with their bags and pay for a cup of coffee in a cafe on the square. I'm not saying there wouldn't be anyone but I'd be sceptical if there'd be enough to make it viable.
> 
> ...


 
I personally wouldn't mind a big green space.  Brocky's too far away for some people to walk to.  Fine, you have Rush Common but you have to avoid the dogshit and there's not enough seating


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## newbie (Jan 14, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I personally wouldn't mind a big green space.  Brocky's too far away for some people to walk to.  Fine, you have Rush Common but you have to avoid the dogshit and there's not enough seating



you wouldn't mind it, but would you actually use it?

people said similarly vague things when it was proposed that the building be taken down, the concrete torn up and Windrush Square be created as a green space.  It's been spectacularly useless ever since.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

newbie said:


> you wouldn't mind it, but would you actually use it?
> 
> people said similarly vague things when it was proposed that the building be taken down, the concrete torn up and Windrush Square be created as a green space. It's been spectacularly useless ever since.


 

I don't know.  It would depend on how nice and safe it was.  I think for pensioners/disabled people etc. it would be nice to have somewhere green that was near a bus stop other than Brockwell Park

I think a little oasis in the heart of Brixton with maybe a nice water feature/fountain would be nice, although it's totally unrealistic


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

If they had the guts to completely close effra road by st. mathews (and make all traffic go round the back) then the churchyard could join up and make a pretty big park.





Here's Max Roach park to the same scale


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

newbie said:


> you wouldn't mind it, but would you actually use it?
> 
> people said similarly vague things when it was proposed that the building be taken down, the concrete torn up and Windrush Square be created as a green space. It's been spectacularly useless ever since.


 

created as a green space.  Yep, that's exactly what it is.  Unfortunately it's a totally miserable featureless green space.  It's just a square patch of grass.


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> If they had the guts to completely close effra road by st. mathews (and make all traffic go round the back) then the churchyard could join up and make a pretty big park.



I'm trying to think of other spaces like that (in terms of scale and loaction near to main transport routes) in London and the one that comes to mind is Shepherds Bush Green. I don't consider that as particularly successful as a public space. When I worked round there, I used occasionally to sit and eat my lunch on teh green, in Summer, but it was never a terribly attractive place. If there had been a proper park 5/10 mins extra walk away I would have gone there instead.


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

newbie said:


> you wouldn't mind it, but would you actually use it?
> 
> people said similarly vague things when it was proposed that the building be taken down, the concrete torn up and Windrush Square be created as a green space.  It's been spectacularly useless ever since.



What was there previously?


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

Camberwell Green is even smaller but that gets used quite well (and has a similar arrangement of busy road on one side, with small access road round the back)


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

teuchter said:


> What was there previously?







http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/windrush.html


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## newbie (Jan 14, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't know.  It would depend on how nice and safe it was.  I think for pensioners/disabled people etc. it would be nice to have somewhere green that was near a bus stop other than Brockwell Park
> 
> I think a little oasis in the heart of Brixton with maybe a nice water feature/fountain would be nice, although it's totally unrealistic



there was a fountain in Tate Gardens, not that anyone took any notice.  WS is green, not that anyone uses it.  Until the dispersal order no-one used the Peace Garden, except on a weekend morning after the Fridge.

Crucially the square isn't central.  It's sufficiently off axis that few are likely to walk to it, any more than they (we) walk to Max Roach park.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

newbie said:


> there was a fountain in Tate Gardens, not that anyone took any notice. WS is green, not that anyone uses it. Until the dispersal order no-one used the Peace Garden, except on a weekend morning after the Fridge.
> 
> Crucially the square isn't central. It's sufficiently off axis that few are likely to walk to it, any more than they (we) walk to Max Roach park.


 

I think the fact that the local drinkers had taken over Tate Gardens probably put anyone off sitting near the fountain.  

WS is green, but there's nothing attractive about it.  It's caged in. It's square.  It's boring, it's featureless.  It only needs a roof and it would look like a green prison cell.


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## newbie (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/windrush.html



the building was a lot less attractive by the time I knew it, but it was still Orange coaches.  After that it became a shop called Import Cargo, I think.


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## pboi (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> If they had the guts to completely close effra road by st. mathews (and make all traffic go round the back) then the churchyard could join up and make a pretty big park.



while im sure the traffic would be fcked...that is AWESOME


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## nick (Jan 14, 2009)

teuchter said:


> I'm trying to think of other spaces like that (in terms of scale and loaction near to main transport routes) in London .



Soho Square?
Berkeley Square?


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

What good is a large park, however, if it's just going to be full of druggies and alcoholics hanging around, making it a no-go area for everyone else rather like the area outside the Ritzy?


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## christonabike (Jan 14, 2009)

Brilliant


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

ajdown said:


> What good is a large park, however, if it's just going to be full of druggies and alcoholics hanging around, making it a no-go area for everyone else rather like the area outside the Ritzy?


 

Maybe if they put a kiddies' play area, the drinkers and drug-takers would feel guilty about using it

Although that is of course highly unlikely


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## pboi (Jan 14, 2009)

ajdown said:


> What good is a large park, however, if it's just going to be full of druggies and alcoholics hanging around, making it a no-go area for everyone else rather like the area outside the Ritzy?



maybe it will be so large and well lit that they can have their own area, leaving the rest of it to be enjoyed by the rest of le brix


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

I reckon the traffic could be ok. If we remove the pavement from the S side of the church (and put pedestrians on a path inside the 'park' boundary, then there's enough road space for 5 lanes. If you count the actual road capacity coming in and out, it should all fit. I reckon


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

pboi said:


> maybe it will be so large and well lit that they can have their own area, leaving the rest of it to be enjoyed by the rest of le brix


Just like in Brockwell Park


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## pboi (Jan 14, 2009)

you know it!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I reckon the traffic could be ok. If we remove the pavement from the S side of the church (and put pedestrians on a path inside the 'park' boundary, then there's enough road space for 5 lanes. If you count the actual road capacity coming in and out, it should all fit. I reckon


 

I've not quite figured how this is going to work.  Brixton is a nightmare if there's an accident anyway.  All you need is an accident on Tulse Hill for it to affect traffic going both ways


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

If you look at the existing situation you realise that actually, a large proportion of the area is green anyway:


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes but it's all cut up


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

I know. It's the glueing together rather than necessarily adding more green which would be most welcome in my opinion.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Yes but it's all cut up


 

We need some evergreens planted.  

And just look at Windrush Square.  Boring, boring, boring.  Bit of grass with a couple of paths through it


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> We need some evergreens planted.
> 
> And just look at Windrush Square.  Boring, boring, boring.  Bit of grass with a couple of paths through it



Yes, Windrush square is undoubtedly crap. And the fence around it is fairly nonsensical.


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've not quite figured how this is going to work.  Brixton is a nightmare if there's an accident anyway.  All you need is an accident on Tulse Hill for it to affect traffic going both ways



Unfortunately there are a lot of people round here that hate cars and believe that we should all use bicycles, without actually realising that there are very good reasons that most of us don't us bicycles already - like a bloody great hill to cycle up if you live anywhere South of the Ritzy.


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

Nobody's mentioned bicycles yet, and my post upthread had nothing to do with them.

In any case, this junction is vital for cars, buses, lorries and cycles. Any remodelling has to maintain existing capacity for all modes.

I have accurate OS maps of the area in CAD at home, so I can get a bit more specific. You want a copy teuchter?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Yes, Windrush square is undoubtedly crap. And the fence around it is fairly nonsensical.


 

and I think that's what makes it unattractive, you feel imprisoned, and at the same time vulnerable.


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## christonabike (Jan 14, 2009)

> like a bloody great hill



I met an Aussie on the 59 bus who was lost, said she was looking for Brixton Hill. I said we were on it. She said she was looking for a hill, doh!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

christonabike said:


> Again, brilliant
> 
> 
> 
> I met an Aussie on the 59 bus who was lost, said she was looking for Brixton Hill. I said we were on it


 

I do feel embarrassed calling it a Hill myself as it's practically impossible to see it's a Hill.  You only know it when your legs start feeling it


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## Bob (Jan 14, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Unfortunately there are a lot of people round here that hate cars and believe that we should all use bicycles, without actually realising that there are very good reasons that most of us don't us bicycles already - like a bloody great hill to cycle up if you live anywhere South of the Ritzy.



Just adds to the exercise - anyone who is of working age could cycle up Brixton hill as long as their bikes had a few gears.


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

There's quite a few disabled people who would agree with you, for a start.


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

no, everyone should be forced to cycle


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## teuchter (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I have accurate OS maps of the area in CAD at home, so I can get a bit more specific. You want a copy teuchter?



Not if it's on condition that I use it to work up a fully thought out scheme for Brixton Central Square (unless Boris wants to pay me to do so, of course).

But yes, it might be a handy thing to have for future reference...


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

sent it to your email address as listed in your profile.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 14, 2009)

Bob said:


> Just adds to the exercise - anyone who is of working age could cycle up Brixton hill as long as their bikes had a few gears.



It's quite possible to cycle up Brixton Hill on a fixed wheel!


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

It's the going up that bothers me.  Riding down wouldn't be such a problem.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 14, 2009)

teuchter said:


> You do have to bear in mind the difference climate makes, though.



This is a good point




teuchter said:


> I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea of trying to impose "cafe culture" on Brixton... Brixton just isn't a "cafe culture" kind of place and I don't think it would benefit particularly from trying to become one.



This, I'm not so sure about - I think that there would be quite a demand for a central outside meeting space.  I think that you're associating "cafe culture" with affluence and expensive coffee because that's what it is in the King's Road and Marylebone and sort of what we've come to associate with this sort of thing in the UK.. - but I don't see why Brixton can't have a "cafe culture" (itself a loaded term) more fitting to the environment and populace (ie more realistically priced drinks and snacks) - are only the affluent allowed to enjoy such things?  I don't see why it would be an "imposition" either?  



teuchter said:


> By the way I think that it should also be born in mind that Brockwell Park exists nearby. This is significant because for most people living in Brixton, if they fancy going and sitting outside in the sun for a bit, they will go to the park which of course has its own cafe and other facilities. If the park wasn't there, and Brixton was one of those parts of town which suffers from a lack of public green space, then the functions that a central square could potentially provide for would be rather different.



Well, as it happens I practically live _in_ the park and I would still like a central Brixton meeting point.  

Anyway - it's a tough call this one.  I feel that a lot of what I like about Brixton is the lively street atmosphere - and I think that it could work well in a very appropriate way in that area.  Your point about the weather though is a good one and I might be totally wrong!  I'm no town planner and I don't have any expertise in this sort of area - so it's all just a hunch really!  I'd like to see it happen and I'd like it to be a success is all.


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## quimcunx (Jan 14, 2009)

There have been times I've been in central Brixton and would have appreciated a friendly open space.  Once I ate a salad at a bench table behind Mass, once my friend and I sat on the grass beside those tables, after a go on the swings and the other time I actually attempted this I sat on the grass in front of Mass but I moved when a woman had a pee in front of me. 

Sometimes it would be nice to have an actual useable, friendly, central, green space with or without cafes.  Brockwell park isn't much use if you are in central Brixton and only want somewhere to sit down for a half hour and eat a sandwich in the summer. 


The hill starts at about the Police station, you soon notice if you ride a bike.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 14, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> The hill starts at about the Police station, you soon notice if you ride a bike.



Good grief - you guys need to try Knight's Hill on a daily basis - Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill are barely hills!  And I'm hardly the fittest person on the planet...!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> Good grief - you guys need to try Knight's Hill on a daily basis - Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill are barely hills!  And I'm hardly the fittest person on the planet...!




Don't tar me with the same brush, I've already said I'm embarrassed to call it a hill.  My sister lives off Spa Hill so I know real hills.


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## quimcunx (Jan 14, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> Good grief - you guys need to try Knight's Hill on a daily basis - Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill are barely hills!  And I'm hardly the fittest person on the planet...!



I know there are differences in inclines of hills!  I grew up on a proper one with plenty of slopes just as steep as Knight's Hill.    Doesn't alter the fact that the incline starts at the police station, something I failed to notice until I cycled it.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 14, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> I know there are differences in inclines of hills!  I grew up on a proper one with plenty of slopes just as steep as Knight's Hill.    Doesn't alter the fact that the incline starts at the police station, something I failed to notice until I cycled it.



huh.. well in all these years I never noticed the incline at the start of the cop shop, but since you're a well experienced expert in inclines with requisite childhood experience, I'll take your word for it and look out for it more in the future...


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## newbie (Jan 14, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> This, I'm not so sure about - I think that there would be quite a demand for a central outside meeting space.  I think that you're associating "cafe culture" with affluence and expensive coffee because that's what it is in the King's Road and Marylebone and sort of what we've come to associate with this sort of thing in the UK.. - but I don't see why Brixton can't have a "cafe culture" (itself a loaded term) more fitting to the environment and populace (ie more realistically priced drinks and snacks) - are only the affluent allowed to enjoy such things?  I don't see why it would be an "imposition" either?



Brixton has loads of cafes (including one right by Windrush Square) and plenty of cafe cultures.  I don't get why Lambeth or TfL or whoever needs to subsidise a new one which will inevitably take business from the existing ones.


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## ajdown (Jan 14, 2009)

Ah but are they poncey £3 'double mint choc chip caramel frappelattemochachino' cafes, or "Mug of tea 50p" proper cafes?

I'll give you one guess as to which would be popular with the council, and which would be popular with the locals.


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## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> This, I'm not so sure about - I think that there would be quite a demand for a central outside meeting space.  I think that you're associating "cafe culture" with affluence and expensive coffee because that's what it is in the King's Road and Marylebone and sort of what we've come to associate with this sort of thing in the UK.. - but I don't see why Brixton can't have a "cafe culture" (itself a loaded term) more fitting to the environment and populace (ie more realistically priced drinks and snacks) - are only the affluent allowed to enjoy such things?  I don't see why it would be an "imposition" either?


All fair points. I'm not entirely sure what I think myself. I think part of it is just a concern that whoever designs the new square should have a good understanding of how Brixton works and what it's about. Rather than applying a standard kind of approach based on assumptions that might apply to other parts of London, or other cities. Of course, any good designer should do this as a matter of course.

There is also a danger, which I recognise, that what I like about Brixton might not be that same things that most people (including many that have been here longer than I) like about Brixton. I kind of enjoy the haphazardness of the town centre and the fact that certain areas have been claimed by those who others might consider undesirable or whatever. I'd find it a bit sad if some of this kind of character was washed away with a tidy, bland new square. I probably shouldn't assume that others necessarily feel this way of course.





> Well, as it happens I practically live _in_ the park and I would still like a central Brixton meeting point.



Well, it's true that a better central meeting point could be good. It would be nice to be able to arrange to meet people somewhere other than KFC corner or outside the tube, perhaps. I guess what I was saying is that there are certain functions that are better provided by the park (eg an all-day picnic or going for a walk in a bit of fresh air) and that that ought to be taken into account in the design, and that's one of the reasons I'd be sceptical about greening it all.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 15, 2009)

teuchter said:


> I kind of enjoy the haphazardness of the town centre and the fact that certain areas have been claimed by those who others might consider undesirable or whatever. I'd find it a bit sad if some of this kind of character was washed away with a tidy, bland new square. I probably shouldn't assume that others necessarily feel this way of course.



I agree with you on that and for me the ideal square wouldn't be sanitized in that way.  The drinkers outside the Ritzy have never bothered me personally and I don't see why they should go anywhere.  I don't see why a new square should mean they have to move on.  I really like the way the drinkers in the park were given their own space - admittedly it's semi-walled off to save the sensibilities of some, but it seems to have been a happy compromise (certainly I know a "full time" drinker there and it hasn't put him off.  

The drug dealing I think, is a problem but it would be sad if Brixton could never do anything new or look to improve in any way because of this.



newbie said:


> Brixton has loads of cafes (including one right by Windrush Square) and plenty of cafe cultures.  I don't get why Lambeth or TfL or whoever needs to subsidise a new one which will inevitably take business from the existing ones.



As for taking business away from other cafes - I would say that local cafes/bars should be offered the chance to run any new stalls in the square (in the same way that the Lido has been trying to get local cafes/bars to bid for the cafe business by the pool).  For any who are struggling, or those with ambitions to grow - it could be a good opportunity.  There's no reason why it couldn't be seasonal either - a summer only affair - maybe with a special week around Christmas.


----------



## ajdown (Jan 15, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> The drinkers outside the Ritzy have never bothered me personally and I don't see why they should go anywhere.  I don't see why a new square should mean they have to move on.



They shouldn't be there at all.  There is no excuse whatsoever for public drunkenness.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> They shouldn't be there at all.  There is no excuse whatsoever for public drunkenness.


----------



## ajdown (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't know why Lambeth, and Brixton in particular, are so lax when it comes to dealing with antisocial behaviour.  It's almost as if it's encouraged by not being cracked down on as it should be.


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

its also a pretty shitty first impressions. 

Walk out of station, think to self, lets go for drink in Albert.

Crazy Preacher Man

Drug Dealers.

Drunks.

Arrive at the Albert needing a drink


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Jan 15, 2009)

I really do think that improvements to the environment of an urban area produces a reduction in crime, so in that sense any investment in the square can't be such a bad thing. One of the reasons the High Street suffers from so much crime is that there are countless escape routes for the bad guys (buses, Tube, street exits etc). A bit of careful planning (OK, I know that is slightly an oxymoron), would reduce attractiveness of area for dealers, pickpockets etc.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I don't know why Lambeth, and Brixton in particular, are so lax when it comes to dealing with antisocial behaviour.  It's almost as if it's encouraged by not being cracked down on as it should be.


What would be your strategy?


----------



## ajdown (Jan 15, 2009)

My strategy?

Probably unpopular round here, given that there are too many left wing do-gooders that do not feel that restricting someone's freedoms to act in an antisocial manner is acceptable policy.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 15, 2009)

So what would it be?


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

more police presence

 and help for the people that want to change

those who are happy drinking/taking drugs in public can fuck off


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> its also a pretty shitty first impressions.
> 
> Walk out of station, think to self, lets go for drink in Albert.
> 
> ...



In what way does "crazy preacher man" offend you?

And I hope that once you get to the Albert you don't drink anything alcoholic, because doing so would be antisocial and there just isn't any excuse for it.


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

drinking inside a pub is anti social? wow, a nation built on anti social (ism?)


did I say offend? I said SHIT first impression


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Ah but are they poncey £3 'double mint choc chip caramel frappelattemochachino' cafes, or "Mug of tea 50p" proper cafes?
> 
> I'll give you one guess as to which would be popular with the council, and which would be popular with the locals.



which 'locals'?  have you a look at the cafes in Brixton, they're pretty much all different, they cater for substantially different 'communities' and between them offer a huge range of options for food or drink across a range of pricepoints.

One of my concerns about this idea is that if the subsidised cafe looks viable it will become a CostaNeroPret or maybe a Pizza Express or something. A bland chain, anyway. Bear in mind that moral majority types won't allow it to be a "Mug of tea 50p" place because that'll be colonised by the wrong sort, the sort who give Brixton a bad name.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> drinking inside a pub is anti social? wow, a nation built on anti social (ism?)



You said "those who are happy drinking/taking drugs in public can fuck off".



pboi said:


> did I say offend? I said SHIT first impression



Why does he give you such an impression, then?


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

perhaps the word outside is needed for you to understand

sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums


The crazy preacher dude. I dont want to be preached at.  If I wanted that I would go to church or a speakers corner. SHIT impression


----------



## ajdown (Jan 15, 2009)

Crispy said:


> So what would it be?



Mostly what pboi said.

Help and advice for those with drink/drug problems to get sorted out.

Refuse help?  Fine.  Full weight of the law heading your way in 3.. 2.. 1..


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> As for taking business away from other cafes - I would say that local cafes/bars should be offered the chance to run any new stalls in the square (in the same way that the Lido has been trying to get local cafes/bars to bid for the cafe business by the pool).  For any who are struggling, or those with ambitions to grow - it could be a good opportunity.  There's no reason why it couldn't be seasonal either - a summer only affair - maybe with a special week around Christmas.



but why?  why does this project deserve public subsidy so that whoever gets the franchise gets that 'good opportunity'?

It's not like there's no choice...within a hundred yards of WS are two of the most popular local cafes and at least two others plus a pub.  

It's also not like there's a huge public policy requirement to move the centre of gravity away from 'central' Brixton and towards that end of the high street.  If anything, surely public money would be better spent moving the cofg the other way, into regenerating the decrepit areas around the market and the Rec.


E2A or is there?  is this all about providing somewhere convenient for Town Hall staff at lunchtime?


----------



## snowy_again (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums



but those sitting and getting trolleyed in a wine bar or the beehive are completely different?


----------



## snowy_again (Jan 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Mostly what pboi said.
> 
> Help and advice for those with drink/drug problems to get sorted out.
> 
> Refuse help?  Fine.  Full weight of the law heading your way in 3.. 2.. 1..



haha, care to cite which laws you would invoke, or would you have to create some?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> perhaps the word outside is needed for you to understand
> 
> sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums



What about people who are drunk but have gotten drunk in an authorised indoors space, walking about outdoors?


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

by the letter of the law they are yes.

and even not using the letter of the law ... the cockroaches hangaround all day smoking, drinking and generally being bums. I view that differently to sitting in a pub all day and drinking.

We were talking about Brixton impression after all. Not the merits of who is the holier bing drinker.


Again. They make bad impression.


----------



## ajdown (Jan 15, 2009)

snowy_again said:


> haha, care to cite which laws you would invoke, or would you have to create some?



I'm sure there's something in the public order act about being drunk in public, ASBO's can be effective, dispersal orders, no alcohol zones, probably something about loitering, for a start.

Sort your life out, or lose your flat, children, etc.  You choose.


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## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

teuchter said:


> What about people who are drunk but have gotten drunk in an authorised indoors space, walking about outdoors?



are you going to ask questions about what I write or add to this thread?


Drunks roaming the streets..to get home/food/to another establishment?   That happens everywhere!  Mostly at night one would guess, if you had a job / it wasnt the weekend. 

I would guess most of these daytime cockroaches dont have jobs though, so I guess they would be drunk anytime.   Again, Bad impression.   Why dont you understand?


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

No drinking in public zones, no drinking glasses in public, no drunks in public.  These rules are in effect in urban areas all over Britain ... of course the examples I can think of are Cardiff and Coventry and they are zoos on the weekend!


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> and even not using the letter of the law ... the cockroaches hangaround all day smoking, drinking and generally being bums. I view that differently to sitting in a pub all day and drinking.



Why?


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

Massive public space, reminds me of signs I used to see....


No Ball Games

No Loitering

No Drinking

No Drug Taking

No Drug Selling

No Public Urination

No Glasses

No Heavy Petting

No Bombing

No Running

No Smoking

No Having Fun

No Talking


Ok, last three were Eddie Izzard!!


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Why?




because one is inside a building and one isn't?

one creates a different impression to the other?


and if you are about to make a pithy point about transporting these cockroachs into a pub, what would the difference be?   not much, they would be still be layabout alcoholics that arent a credit to the area!


or are you lining up a point about just hiding these people away doesnt solve the problem but at least people dont get to see them?    

That wont work, they still need help and should be offered it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> perhaps the word outside is needed for you to understand
> 
> sitting outside around swigging tenants special brew or vodkat all day every day can fuck off. bums
> 
> ...


 

So are you happy for Jehovah's to come knocking at your door?  How do you feel about the present of Salvation Army bands on the streets?  What about the Korean singers that are sometimes in Brixton?


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

Jehovahs knocking at my door?   No thankyou

Bands = awesome

Koreans = awesome


----------



## Not a Vet (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok my ideas for a central Brixton square (prepares to be shot down in flames)

In no particular order:

Restore the Budd Memorial (lottery funding)
Move the drinkers to their own dedicated area, a la Brockwell Park
Less concrete
Better lighting
Inprove borders, i.e. reduce audible traffic noise
Have a dedicated kids play area
Introduce a central kiosk, coffee, snacks etc
Have a deckchair hire scheme, a la Royal Parks

Make it a place people want to spend time in not avoid


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> are you going to ask questions about what I write or add to this thread?
> 
> 
> Drunks roaming the streets..to get home/food/to another establishment?   That happens everywhere!  Mostly at night one would guess, if you had a job / it wasnt the weekend.
> ...



This "bad impression" that you are worried about - who is it that you are concerned about being impressed? Are you worried that someone will think that there are people with drink and drug problems in Brixton? Why do you want to hide this fact?

What I don't understand is why the outdoor drinkers trouble you so much. In the nine years or so I've lived in Brixton none of them has caused me any significant hassle. I've certainly had loads more hassle from drunk people on night buses on Friday nights.


----------



## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

All great ideas. Working on the space outside St Matthews would be good aswell. So much potential!


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## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

Public Space indicated its the public who are getting the impression of le Brix.

Remove them from the space = better impression of Brix.  You seem willing to accept, others seem to want to improve.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> Jehovahs knocking at my door? No thankyou
> 
> Bands = awesome
> 
> Koreans = awesome


 

So brass bands and Koreans singing are ok because *you* like them, but not the "crazy" preacher dude (probably because he scares you)?


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So are you happy for Jehovah's to come knocking at your door?  How do you feel about the present of Salvation Army bands on the streets?  What about the Korean singers that are sometimes in Brixton?


I don't really care who wants to start belting out religious tosh, although I'd probably like to see a ban on amplification being used, because some of those God-botherers can make a right fucking racket that would drive people from the area.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> Public Space indicated its the public who are getting the impression of le Brix.
> 
> Remove them from the space = better impression of Brix.  You seem willing to accept, others seem to want to improve.



Kind of like the Chinese Olympics, then.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2009)

editor said:


> I don't really care who wants to start belting out religious tosh, although I'd probably like to see a ban on amplification being used, because some of those God-botherers can make a right fucking racket that would drive people from the area.


 

Nor do I.  I was just trying to establish what type of preaching was acceptable to pboi


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## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

didnt you hear?  Communism is awesome.  I also you like your use of the , comma.

What ed said about the preacher.

Anyway, arent the band and the singers are entertainment.  The preacher dude is clearly a nutbar.  Perhaps if he set up a Barbershop choir to sing about Jeesus, YessssA, he would scare less people.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> didnt you hear? Communism is awesome. I also you like your use of the , comma.
> 
> What ed said about the preacher.
> 
> Anyway, arent the band and the singers are entertainment. The preacher dude is clearly a nutbar.


 

They're still preaching, albeit through songs/hymns


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## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

yeh but sexy songs/hymns.   What do the koreans preach about?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> yeh but sexy songs/hymns. What do the koreans preach about?


 

I don't know what the Koreans preach about as I rarely see them, and when I do, I'm normally hopping on a bus and not waiting around to hear what they're singing  

If "crazy" preacher dude preached in a sexy fashion, would that be more acceptable to you?


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## pboi (Jan 15, 2009)

Barbershop choir deffo. or maybe doing the saturday night fever dance moves, sans amplifier.  Busking > Preaching


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## newbie (Jan 15, 2009)

teuchter said:


> This "bad impression" that you are worried about - who is it that you are concerned about being impressed? Are you worried that someone will think that there are people with drink and drug problems in Brixton? Why do you want to hide this fact?
> 
> What I don't understand is why the outdoor drinkers trouble you so much. In the nine years or so I've lived in Brixton none of them has caused me any significant hassle. I've certainly had loads more hassle from drunk people on night buses on Friday nights.



I agree.  They bothered me a little when they used to gather outside the tube and once or twice I avoided walking through Tate Gardens because of the way they were behaving.  So I understood why they were moved to St Matthews peace garden.  To my mind that's been almost entirely successful: almost no-one ever used it before they were moved there, so almost no-one was affected and Tate Gardens has been sanistised so that those who made the fuss can feel safe, although I see little sign that they use it.


----------



## Winot (Jan 15, 2009)

pboi said:


> its also a pretty shitty first impressions.
> 
> Walk out of station, think to self, lets go for drink in Albert.
> 
> ...



I always think it's liking ascending into the middle of a Hieronymous Bosch painting.

I like it.  I can see why others don't.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 15, 2009)

newbie said:


> If anything, surely public money would be better spent moving the cofg the other way, into regenerating the decrepit areas around the market and the Rec.



Why an either/or?. both areas are deserving I think.  In fact there's plenty of parts of Brixton that could do with investment.  I'm not sure I understand your point about cafes being subsidised by public money... in what way would they be subsidised??  I imagined that a square would be created with space for cafes that would then be rented out to anyone interested in the business - with local businesses being offered that chance first.  

I remember attending the consultation a few years back - but I don't remember the outcome - I'm sure it must be on here somewhere.  I guess it would be a question of measuring public opinion on the cafe thing.  

I would just hate for it to be a large concreted over area with nothing at all.  I'd like to see local schools putting on plays/performances, a Christmas market, music, busking.  Actually all things that happen in Brixton anyway - but be given a proper space to do so!

I quite often wander down on a summer Saturday purely to see what's going on in central Brixton - the preachers, Korean Christians, campaigners, incense sellers, buskers, drinkers etc etc - it's all good and what I like about Brixton and personally I wouldn't want to see any of it go really.  I can't say I've witnessed any real "anti social" behaviour from the drinkers - they seem to just sit there comparatively quietly with their beer - but public drinking doesn't annoy me particularly.  Arsey drunks do public or private - but you see more of them outside provincial Wetherspoons than outside the Ritzy tbh. 




newbie said:


> E2A or is there?  is this all about providing somewhere convenient for Town Hall staff at lunchtime?



Maybe this is it?


----------



## ajdown (Jan 15, 2009)

Unfortunately a more attractive open space might tempt the Scientologists back again.

Mind you, unless they have a street traders license, you can easily get them shut down and moved on - and they generally don't bother as they think they're above the law.


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## jezg (Apr 15, 2009)

Does anyone know where to find latest plans for the central square? Latest Future Brixton leaflet says Tate Gardens and Windrush Sq will be joined up and also that the public want Effra road kept open. Am keen to see how the two would work together. Plans seem to have disappeared from Lambeth website, all thats on there is the online poll to choose the new name. Windrush Square will do me.


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## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2009)

editor said:


> I don't really care who wants to start belting out religious tosh, although I'd probably like to see a ban on amplification being used, because some of those God-botherers can make a right fucking racket that would drive people from the area.



Funnily enough theres a new lot outside of KFC on Saturdays.I was thinking of complaining.They use amplifiers all Saturday so if ur in Ritzy Screen one u can hear the racket.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'm sure there's something in the public order act about being drunk in public, ASBO's can be effective, dispersal orders, no alcohol zones, probably something about loitering, for a start.
> 
> Sort your life out, or lose your flat, children, etc.  You choose.



There already is a dispersal zone in Brixton which gets renewed on a regular basis.Hope ur happy then.

Police enforce it on an irregulart basis as far as I can see.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2009)

pboi said:


> by the letter of the law they are yes.
> 
> and even not using the letter of the law ... the cockroaches hangaround all day smoking, drinking and generally being bums. I view that differently to sitting in a pub all day and drinking.
> 
> ...




So anti social behaviour is what u deem gives an area a bad "impression". My definition of ASB is when someone does something that intimidates or threatens my safety. Under this I would include street drug dealers.Not street drinkers. We may have different views on there lifestyle but that is not an issue of ASB. People can be "bums" in many different ways that dont cause me personal concern. 

When ASB was first promoted by the present Government it was about dealing with "Neighbours from Hell". Its now such a generalised notion that it cover a wide range of behaviour thats not intimidating or threatening.

Its also not a consistant policy.There are dispersal zones/non drinking in public zones in central London.Ive seen in Soho sq Police stopping the homeless from drinking(even when they are doing it quietly) but office workers/The well dressed are left alone by the Cops if they drink.If ur going to have a no drinking in public rule IMO its got to be fair and enforced like the one on the Underground.

Also I know a few of the street drinkers.They are human like the rest of us. Theres one I give change to.He drinks on his own and doesnt bother anyone.

Ive met a few ex Brixton drinkers in the West End.The come to the WE as the waana be "Dealers" harass them in Brixton.

The best thing to do is to give them there own designated zones in Brixton.


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## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2009)

jezg said:


> Does anyone know where to find latest plans for the central square? Latest Future Brixton leaflet says Tate Gardens and Windrush Sq will be joined up and also that the public want Effra road kept open. Am keen to see how the two would work together. Plans seem to have disappeared from Lambeth website, all thats on there is the online poll to choose the new name. Windrush Square will do me.



http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...FutureLambeth/BrixtonCentralSquareProject.htm


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## WarmharbourLane (Apr 19, 2009)

Gramsci said:


> Funnily enough theres a new lot outside of KFC on Saturdays.I was thinking of complaining.They use amplifiers all Saturday so if ur in Ritzy Screen one u can hear the racket.



I don't mind a bit of gospel music, but that lot could be heard all over central Brixton on Saturday and were difficult to listen to down my street. Are they there regularly ?! 

Does anyone know what's going on with this Square redevelopment idea anyway ? An earlier post said work was due to have started last week


----------



## Foucault's Wife (Apr 23, 2009)

Did anyone else get the bumph through the door today about the new plans for the 'New Square' and the road layout?  You will not be able to turn left from Brixton Road onto Coldharbour.

I'm confused  are they also going to make it possible to turn right from Coldharbour onto Railton and from Atlantic onto Coldharbour? Otherwise how do people from Brixton Hill get to Saltoun, Kellet, Mervan etc.?  Also it makes getting to Coldharbour and Rushcroft if you're heading South on Brixton Road really hard without going all the way around St. Matthews gyratory or if its the evening/early morning using Atlantic Road and Electric Lane as a run through.

Whatever they do with the Atlantic, Coldharbour, Railton junction the new traffic flow around St. Matthews will mean more people using Atlantic Road and Electric Road as rat runs.

Still no public loos in the new square either, pissing in the street and on people's front doors is obviously still OK in Brixton.


----------



## ajdown (Apr 23, 2009)

Foucault's Wife said:


> Still no public loos in the new square either, pissing in the street and on people's front doors is obviously still OK in Brixton.



I've never understood the lack of public toilets in Brixton.  Having to sneak into McDonalds is not the best option really is it?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 23, 2009)

There's public toilets on pope's road, behind the railway, but that's a bit out of the way. And they're only open during the day.


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## ajdown (Apr 23, 2009)

Crispy said:


> There's public toilets on pope's road, behind the railway, but that's a bit out of the way. And they're only open during the day.



... and the rise-out-the-ground urinal by the market that's only there during the evening.


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## Bob (Apr 24, 2009)

Does anyone else have a sinking feeling that Brixton Central Square will be a desolate place, like Windrush is at present? 

As a non car owner and avid cyclist I have no particular wish to see more traffic but pedestrianisation seems to very often ask for trouble. 

On a happier note does anyone know where the bus stops for the 3/196/37/415 will be? They'll have to move from the top of Effra road - so it will either get a lot easier (e.g. round St Matthews somewhere) or much harder (e.g. round the St Matthews estate) for those of us to get buses towards Herne hill / Tulse Hill.


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## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

Can we see these latest plans online somewhere?


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## jpm (Apr 24, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I've never understood the lack of public toilets in Brixton.  Having to sneak into McDonalds is not the best option really is it?



Although you can use McDonalds without sneaking in - they're part of a "Community Toilet Scheme", where businesses have agreed to open their facilities to the public. Think Honest Foods and the Dogstar are also in the scheme.

Other than that, I totally agree with you! (often do me sneaking into the Prince of Wales)


----------



## teuchter (Apr 24, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Can we see these latest plans online somewhere?



There's a very small plan here:

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...FutureLambeth/BrixtonCentralSquareProject.htm

Which presumably is the latest.

There is also an "online poll" to choose the name.

The options are:

Windrush Square

Brixton Heritage Square

Roots Square.


Whoever came up with "Brixton Heritage Square" needs to be banished from the borough. What a truly awful name.

I have voted for Windrush Square.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

Yeah, I've seen that one. I want to see the detailed plan for the road layout, really.


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## jpm (Apr 24, 2009)

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/Published/C00000225/M00000394/AI00000673/007b20060918CabinetBrixtonCentralSquareAppendix1AtkinsSchematic.pdf 

This (which appears to remain the plan) suggests the bus stops will largely stay where they are. The A23 will not go around St Matthew's Church (Brixton Hill will be two way outside the fridge), but traffic to Tulse Hill (and from Coldharbour Lane) will go as is.


----------



## jpm (Apr 24, 2009)

btw, got this from http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=225&MID=394#AI673, item 7


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## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

Hmm. That's dated 2004 - I'd be amazed if everything's still the same. In fact, if you compare it with the little image on http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...FutureLambeth/BrixtonCentralSquareProject.htm, you can see that the traffic islands have a different layout.


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## teuchter (Apr 24, 2009)

jpm said:


> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/Published/C00000225/M00000394/AI00000673/007b20060918CabinetBrixtonCentralSquareAppendix1AtkinsSchematic.pdf
> 
> This (which appears to remain the plan) suggests the bus stops will largely stay where they are. The A23 will not go around St Matthew's Church (Brixton Hill will be two way outside the fridge), but traffic to Tulse Hill (and from Coldharbour Lane) will go as is.



Thanks for that, that's a more informative drawing. If it's up to date.

(I like the fact that the filename is .....PREFERRED_OPTION_KEN_1.dwg...)


----------



## jpm (Apr 24, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Hmm. That's dated 2004 - I'd be amazed if everything's still the same. In fact, if you compare it with the little image on http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...FutureLambeth/BrixtonCentralSquareProject.htm, you can see that the traffic islands have a different layout.



I know what you mean, but this was agreed at Cabinet in Sept 2006; unless TfL have had a change of mind I doubt whether the traffic flow will change to any great degree.


----------



## matt m (Apr 24, 2009)

I'd actually really like to see Stockwell Avenue de-pedestrianized and opened to traffic. That's the only way I can think of to change it from being  the stinking open-air urinal that it currently is.  Well, either that or the male psyche to cotton on to the fact that pissing in the street is really not an acceptable thing to do....


----------



## Foucault's Wife (Apr 24, 2009)

matt m said:


> That's the only way I can think of to change it from being  the stinking open-air urinal that it currently is.  Well, either that or the male psyche to cotton on to the fact that pissing in the street is really not an acceptable thing to do....



I think eau d'urine is the smell of Brixton. 

I don't know what would stop people having a slash in the street.  I mentioned public loos but peeps don't use the pop-up urinial at the moment so I don't think that is going to change anything.  

I think the problem is that peeps are not prepared to walk more than a few yards to have a piss.  This means they just pop around the corner where they think they're out of the way onto a residential street and have a wee.  This means they pee on people's front doors, I saw one man pissing in the middle of Electric Lane the other day [oh how I wished for a car to come speeding round the corner, he really would have been cught short] I saw one outside the PoW pissing with gay abandon into Coldharbour Lane for the whole world to see as if he was 5 and having a peeing competition with his mates, see who can get their wizz across the white line onto the other side of the road.  [He had popped outside the PoW for a smoke, could he not piss in their loos?] and I caught somone pissing on the side of my car the other day!

It is so blatant, I think some people get off on it, its like flashing for novices.  And it isn't just men, I've seen women having a sqaut before.

OK rant over, I love Brixton, the pissing is the one thing that really gets up my jacksie.


----------



## newbie (Apr 24, 2009)

Bob said:


> Does anyone else have a sinking feeling that Brixton Central Square will be a desolate place, like Windrush is at present?
> 
> As a non car owner and avid cyclist I have no particular wish to see more traffic but pedestrianisation seems to very often ask for trouble.



I'm afraid I have done since Thread the First.  IMV this whole thing is to cover up the failure of the useless project that was Windrush Square and to enable a few councillors, architects and planners to get their name on a plaque.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

Raleigh Hall neds to happen as part of this project, or nothing should be done at all.


----------



## newbie (Apr 24, 2009)

The BCA/RH project could happen whether or not they create a huge, empty concrete space.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

Ah yes, I phrased that badly 

Although BCA fronting onto windrush square as it is would be a bit lame.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2009)

ajdown said:


> ... and the rise-out-the-ground urinal by the market that's only there during the evening.


They've positioned that far too close to the main drag for the modesty of the late night piss heads. Whenever I go by, I'll often see someone pissing in a doorway further down while the hi tech loo remains untroubled by Stella-fuelled golden showers.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

And of course, because they spent thousands digging it into the ground, they can't simply move it up the road a few meters 

There was a big puddle of diarrhea outside my front door yesterday. Which was nice.


----------



## Bob (Apr 24, 2009)

jpm said:


> I know what you mean, but this was agreed at Cabinet in Sept 2006; unless TfL have had a change of mind I doubt whether the traffic flow will change to any great degree.



I'm really confused now. Will there still be a road between St. Matthew's church and what is currently Windrush square?

That diagram, and the new picture, seems to imply so - in which case the main change is that they're linking Windrush & the bit outside the Ritzy by closing the top of Rushcroft road. 

Still a bad idea - but a less bad idea. And probably an easier one to reverse if closing Rushcroft worsens the existing problems there.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

Closing Efra road is optional (for 'summer events') in the 2004 diagram, so I presume St. Mathew's Road can be set up for 2-way traffic.


----------



## matt m (Apr 24, 2009)

Foucault's Wife said:


> I think eau d'urine is the smell of Brixton.
> 
> I don't know what would stop people having a slash in the street.  I mentioned public loos but peeps don't use the pop-up urinial at the moment so I don't think that is going to change anything.
> 
> ...



I have actually started calling the pissers on Stockwell Ave and Bellefields Rd names, cos it's where I live, and I want them to know how scummy I think they are. It's not like someone can try to fight you in mid-wee.


----------



## Bob (Apr 24, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Closing Efra road is optional (for 'summer events') in the 2004 diagram, so I presume St. Mathew's Road can be set up for 2-way traffic.



Well that's substantially better news than I thought. 

A pity they're repeating the pedestrianisation mistake in Herne Hill - outside the station is really nice anyway because the road is a series of natural chicanes - so it's really never bad. Unlike the rest of Railton.


----------



## jpm (Apr 24, 2009)

Bob said:


> I'm really confused now. Will there still be a road between St. Matthew's church and what is currently Windrush square?
> 
> That diagram, and the new picture, seems to imply so - in which case the main change is that they're linking Windrush & the bit outside the Ritzy by closing the top of Rushcroft road.
> .



Yeah, Effra will be narrowed (at least at the bit up to Saltoun) but will still take traffic. The major change here is that traffic going south on the A23 Brixton Road will go to the right of the church (straight onto Brixton Hill) rather than around it - so less traffic on Effra Road.


----------



## Foucault's Wife (Apr 24, 2009)

matt m said:


> I have actually started calling the pissers on Stockwell Ave and Bellefields Rd names, cos it's where I live, and I want them to know how scummy I think they are. It's not like someone can try to fight you in mid-wee.



Ditto matt m.  There is often an evening or a weekend afternoon when you can hear my dulcet tones ringing out across Electric Lane, "people live on this street, that's someones front door, how would you like it if I came and pissed in your living room?"

I mostly do it from the protection of my second floor window, although sometimes I have walked right up to folk if I happen to be at ground level and walking past.

As for the urinal on Electric Ave

"They've positioned that far too close to the main drag for the modesty of the late night piss heads. Whenever I go by, I'll often see someone pissing in a doorway further down while the hi tech loo remains untroubled by Stella-fuelled golden showers."

I agree ed.


----------



## Bob (Apr 25, 2009)

Foucault's Wife said:


> Did anyone else get the bumph through the door today about the new plans for the 'New Square' and the road layout?  You will not be able to turn left from Brixton Road onto Coldharbour.
> 
> I'm confused  are they also going to make it possible to turn right from Coldharbour onto Railton and from Atlantic onto Coldharbour? Otherwise how do people from Brixton Hill get to Saltoun, Kellet, Mervan etc.?  Also it makes getting to Coldharbour and Rushcroft if you're heading South on Brixton Road really hard without going all the way around St. Matthews gyratory or if its the evening/early morning using Atlantic Road and Electric Lane as a run through.
> 
> ...



I reckon you should be able to lobby for loos quite easily - they're blowing £7m on the square - new loos can't cost that much given that there are closed loos already available to use.


----------



## djd98 (Apr 30, 2009)

The TFL site has been updated with all the maps, plans and details:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/6597.aspx


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## Winot (Apr 30, 2009)

djd98 said:


> The TFL site has been updated with all the maps, plans and details:
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/6597.aspx



Well that's pretty clear, and pretty positive on the whole.

I wonder though whether traffic up Effra Rd will actually be reduced, given that it still remains an optional route for traffic going up Brixton Hill.  One way of looking at it is that an _additional_ road has been provided going south up Brixton Hill, and we all know what additional roads result in.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 30, 2009)

Winot said:


> Well that's pretty clear, and pretty positive on the whole.
> 
> I wonder though whether traffic up Effra Rd will actually be reduced, given that it still remains an optional route for traffic going up Brixton Hill.  One way of looking at it is that an _additional_ road has been provided going south up Brixton Hill, and we all know what additional roads result in.


It's so that Brixton terminating buses can turn round. Not much else they can do about that really. I suppose the right hand turn could have been made bus only.


----------



## ajdown (Apr 30, 2009)

"You'll enjoy a more pleasant environment"

Not without the alcoholics and drug users being moved on, and public toilets provided to stop people pissing in the road it won't.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 30, 2009)

Winot said:


> Well that's pretty clear, and pretty positive on the whole.
> 
> I wonder though whether traffic up Effra Rd will actually be reduced, given that it still remains an optional route for traffic going up Brixton Hill.  One way of looking at it is that an _additional_ road has been provided going south up Brixton Hill, and we all know what additional roads result in.



I wondered about this as well. On the plan that first bit of Effra Road is coloured differently to the other roads, but there's no explanation of what this means - I was thinking maybe that meant it was buses only. Or raised to pavement level?


----------



## teuchter (Apr 30, 2009)

ajdown said:


> "You'll enjoy a more pleasant environment"
> 
> Not without the alcoholics and drug users being moved on, and public toilets provided to stop people pissing in the road it won't.



OK, we'll move them all up to New Park Road.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 30, 2009)

As for public toilets, this scheme is already in operation:

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/TransportStreets/StreetCareCleaning/CommunityToiletScheme.htm


----------



## ajdown (Apr 30, 2009)

teuchter said:


> OK, we'll move them all up to New Park Road.



Actually, addiction recovery centres would be a far better idea.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 30, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Actually, addiction recovery centres would be a far better idea.



In that case, say so, rather than using the phrase "move on" and future misunderstandings can be avoided.


----------



## Foucault's Wife (Apr 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I suppose the right hand turn could have been made bus only.



It couldn't because its the only way to get from Brixton Road onto Coldharbour Lane and onto Rushcroft unless they change the no right turn at the Atlantic Road, Coldharbour junction, or in the evening you go up Electric Lane.  They are making it a no left turn from Brixton Road onto Coldharbour so you have to go all the way around the loop.  

In my humble opinion I think the no left turn from BR to CL is silly as it will man traffic going up Effra that didn't need to and or more traffic using the wholly unsuitable Electric Lane as a cut through in the evening.  Just making Electric Lane the cut through instead of Rushcroft.  I don't think whoever designed this new layout actually lives in this part of Brixton.


----------



## Foucault's Wife (May 15, 2009)

Breaking news:

London Streets:



> can now confirm that a 'pissoir' is planned to be installed at the corner of Tate Gardens by Coldharbour Lane and the Ritzy Cinema.



Well it might help like the one on Electric Avenue does  (not).  It will be especially useful for women.

I am sad I know, caring so much about loos and actually bothering to write to people about it, I'm bored marking essays.


----------



## nick h. (May 19, 2009)

I'm new to this thread but the TFL promotions peeps told me the other day that work will start this week and it will take 18 months. To save me reading this thread could someone give me a quick summary?  It all looks like a big expensive waste which won't affect the dominance of the junkies and drunkies.


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## Crispy (May 19, 2009)

You just summarised it yourself 

The oval and windrush square will be joined together.
No access to rushcroft road.
The gyratory round the church will be removed.
Only Southbound traffic will go up Effra Rd. by the church.

but yes, mostly it's a waste of money.


----------



## nick h. (May 19, 2009)

Oh well. What a shame the principal users of the square will be too out of it to notice the 'improvements'. Seems to me the only significant bit is the rerouting of the traffic, which could be done for about ten quid by moving some bollards around. Instead we have 18 months of messy, noisy construction/destruction to enrich some builders and bent council employees. It makes me fucking angry that they're wasting tons of money on pointless titivating, e.g. lowering the area around the tree in front of the Ritzy. Why not invest in something valuable and progressive, like a bike sharing scheme?


----------



## ajdown (May 19, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Why not invest in something valuable and progressive, like a bike sharing scheme?



I've been in Brixton about 2½ years, and I don't think there's been one week where my journey hasn't been delayed by roadworks somewhere between the South Circular and Oval.


----------



## nick h. (May 19, 2009)

What's the relevance of that to a bike-sharing scheme?


----------



## ajdown (May 19, 2009)

A bike sharing scheme would be of no help to me whatsoever.

Money would be better spent, in my opinion, on somehow easing the traffic flow through the bottleneck which is betweeen Coldharbour Lane and the railway bridges.  Perhaps paying a little overtime to get the roadworks fixed quicker would be much more use to a lot of people than "bike sharing".

After all, don't the majority of people who have an interest in cycling already own a bike?


----------



## flash (May 19, 2009)

Re: relevance to a bike sharing scheme - none. Boris has different pots of money for those. You can't just switch them around like that. Nice thought though.


----------



## nick h. (May 19, 2009)

ajdown, how did you ever learn how to use a computer? You're so ignorant I'm surprised you can read.


----------



## flash (May 19, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Money would be better spent, in my opinion, on somehow easing the traffic flow through the bottleneck which is betweeen Coldharbour Lane and the railway bridges.



The footway isn't wide enough for the volume of pedestrians. The junction outside of the town hall rates as a Category C junction with over 250,000 movements through it on a daily basis or something like that. Also you have plenty of stats in both footways and it would get unfeasibly costly.


----------



## Crispy (May 19, 2009)

the road just can't get any wider. the only way to ease congestion is to reduce the amount of traffic.
although I'm amazed they can't do the current work without reducing southbound to just one lane. my ride home is shuffling through stationary traffic all the way from the academy.


----------



## ajdown (May 19, 2009)

Crispy said:


> the road just can't get any wider. the only way to ease congestion is to reduce the amount of traffic.
> although I'm amazed they can't do the current work without reducing southbound to just one lane. my ride home is shuffling through stationary traffic all the way from the academy.



... and taking so long.

Reducing the amount of traffic, and simply replacing it with bikes, is going to make the problem far worse because bikes accelerate away from lights (when they bother to stop, of course) much slower, thus holding up everything.


----------



## lang rabbie (May 19, 2009)

The current chaos at the junction of Brixton Road and Coldharbour Lane appears to be down to a contractor working for British Telecom.   

This may be ridiculous optimism on  my part, and goes completely against my gut instinct that TfL Street Management remains a disfunctional organisation, but is it actually possible that Transport for London have actually managed to enforce their rights under legislation for once  

The original New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 only allowed "Street Authorities" to stop people from digging up the road for the next twelve months, but I had a vague idea (sad case that I am!) that there had been a recent toughening up of the rules so that TfL could now issue notices whose effect was to say:



> "We're about to spend millions of pounds of taxpayers money reconstructing and resurfacing this road.   If you need to dig it up, do it now or we won't let you touch it for three[?] years."


Lurking traffic engineers, please enlighten us!


----------



## Crispy (May 19, 2009)

ajdown said:


> ... and taking so long.
> 
> Reducing the amount of traffic, and simply replacing it with bikes, is going to make the problem far worse because bikes accelerate away from lights (when they bother to stop, of course) much slower, thus holding up everything.



bicycles are quicker off the line than buses
vesides, I wouldn't suggest everyone gets on their bikes - the roads aren't layed out for that many cyclists. I'd rather they took the bus where possible.


----------



## teuchter (May 19, 2009)

nick h. said:


> the rerouting of the traffic, which could be done for about ten quid by moving some bollards around.



Mmm. Pretty simple stuff, reorganising a major road junction and gyratory system.


----------



## flash (May 19, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> The current chaos at the junction of Brixton Road and Coldharbour Lane appears to be down to a contractor working for British Telecom.
> 
> This may be ridiculous optimism on  my part, and goes completely against my gut instinct that TfL Street Management remains a disfunctional organisation, but is it actually possible that Transport for London have actually managed to enforce their rights under legislation for once
> 
> ...



It has always been the case as far as I am aware as currently a section 58 of the Highways Act 1980 (later affected by NRSWA 1991) is only valid for 12 months because as you say because NRSWA 1991 is still in force but the Traffic Management Act now complicates things a touch - evil document. If this work is being done within the 12 month period or having to be redone I would think that it's something like section 163 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 which relates to both the Highways Act and NRSWA. Really not sure on the three year bit and don't think that this is the case. TfL (parts of) are/is very dysfunctional as you say though.


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## Bob (May 20, 2009)

Crispy said:


> the road just can't get any wider. the only way to ease congestion is to reduce the amount of traffic.
> although I'm amazed they can't do the current work without reducing southbound to just one lane. my ride home is shuffling through stationary traffic all the way from the academy.



What's the risk do you think of the effective narrowing of the road at Effra road with this scheme? I can't imagine it will have any positive effect on the current congestion in the area - but you're the expert....


----------



## billythefish (May 20, 2009)

Moving bus stops from Brixton road to around the St. Matthew's traffic island seems a better idea to me. The number of times I see the buses all tripping over themselves, double-parked, blocking each other's exits and entrances, without any other traffic interfering is mind boggling - both outside the Fridge and in Brixton Road proper. 

Surely it's not too hard to come up with a scheme like they have at Vauxhall Cross. Around St. Matthew's there's four lanes to the West (for North and Westbound routes), and three to the South and East (for South and Eastbound routes) to play with. Couple this with some properly thought out pedestrian crossings and traffic islands and loads of the Brixton Road congestion will be removed - both for pedestrians and motor traffic.


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## Crispy (May 20, 2009)

*whips out autocad and brixton OS map*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2009)

billythefish said:


> Moving bus stops from Brixton road to around the St. Matthew's traffic island seems a better idea to me. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Unless you're carrying half a dozen bags of shopping


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## ajdown (May 20, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Unless you're carrying half a dozen bags of shopping



... or are elderly, or disabled, or any of the many other reasons why walking isn't always an option.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2009)

ajdown said:


> ... or are elderly, or disabled, or any of the many other reasons why walking isn't always an option.


 

yep, I meant that as well and I figured that the reason most elderly and disabled would be in Brixton Town Centre in the first place would be for shopping - although I know there are elderly and disabled who do work


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## Crispy (May 20, 2009)

ok, here's how you could get traffic round st. matthews without massively changing the number of lanes coming in and out of the junction.
of course if I had my own selfish way, there'd be less space for cars and loads of cycle lanes but I don't think that's realistic right now 

click for bigger image


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2009)

I'm not very good at maps.  

Is that a two-way system going up Effra Road as well as Brixton Hill?


----------



## Crispy (May 20, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm not very good at maps.
> 
> Is that a two-way system going up Effra Road as well as Brixton Hill?


Effra Road by the church is closed off.
Traffic for Effra Road goes up Brixton Hill then behind the church then up Effra.
It's basically the same as the TFL plan, just with that bit of Effra road closed off so all the public space joins together.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Effra Road by the church is closed off.
> Traffic for Effra Road goes up Brixton Hill then behind the church then up Effra.


 

Oh, I thought that's what the original plan was in the first place.
















Or was that a plan you came up with years ago?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2009)

I haven't quite figured out what difference the new layout will make if there's an accident in Tulse Hill.  I'm guessing not much different as traffic could be diverted through Brixton Water Lane, which is often is anyway, and...

I've lost my thread 

I know I had concerns about how the traffic would back up at Stockwell Park Road where it turns into Brixton Road but I can't remember what my concerns were as it's so long ago I looked at the maps


----------



## Crispy (May 20, 2009)

maybe, maybe. the actual plan is


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2009)

Crispy said:


> maybe, maybe. the actual plan is


 

Yes, I think I was thinking that if Effra Road was shut off to traffic by the Church and traffic went round the back (side) of the church, then an accident on Tulse Hill would cause even more chaos on Brixton Hill because of the knock-on effect going both ways as opposed to just going towards Brixton getting jammed up because the traffic from Stockwell Park Road going the other direction was blocking the traffic coming down the Hill.

IYSWIM  

Bollox.  Can't explain myself.  I'm going home


----------



## nick h. (May 20, 2009)

So maybe the reason they haven't closed the lower bit of Effra Road is that it's needed for bus stops?


----------



## teuchter (May 20, 2009)

Crispy said:


> ok, here's how you could get traffic round st. matthews without massively changing the number of lanes coming in and out of the junction.
> of course if I had my own selfish way, there'd be less space for cars and loads of cycle lanes but I don't think that's realistic right now
> 
> click for bigger image



I'm not convinced it's as simple as just drawing a load of road lanes onto a map though. I bet the little details like where to put cycle lanes, and bus stops (you've removed two at the beginning of Effra Rd) have a more significant impact on traffic flow once subjected to proper traffic modelling than is apparent just looking at a drawing.


----------



## teuchter (May 20, 2009)

nick h. said:


> So maybe the reason they haven't closed the lower bit of Effra Road is that it's needed for bus stops?



It does seem there's a new bus stop by Windrush square. I wonder if this is relocated from the high street.


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## Crispy (May 20, 2009)

If they closed that bit of Effra, then the bus stops could be recessed into the Central Square. Yes, this would be a bus stop 'inside' a major junction, so it's not ideal. If my plan was used, however, you could take down the railings and move the bus stops onto Brixton Hill opposite the town hall.


----------



## teuchter (May 20, 2009)

There's also a bus stand on that bit of Effra road, presumably for those coming from the north that have terminated at Brixton and need to go back where they came from. You'll have to find space for that too.


----------



## teuchter (May 20, 2009)

And the no. 37 is going to have to make a rather sharp turn to get from Acre Lane onto Brixton Hill.


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## nick h. (May 20, 2009)

Let's face it, central Brixton is basically a bus station with shops round the edge.


----------



## rennie (May 20, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Let's face it, central Brixton is basically a bus station with shops round the edge.



Wise words.


----------



## billythefish (May 20, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> yep, I meant that as well and I figured that the reason most elderly and disabled would be in Brixton Town Centre in the first place would be for shopping - although I know there are elderly and disabled who do work



Both fair points, but I figured there wouldn't be much to choose between the current trials of negotiating the crowded bus queues and waiting the extra few minutes because of congestion and walking the extra 50 yards on clearer pavements and waiting in decent shelters with space for seating...


----------



## flash (May 20, 2009)

teuchter said:


> And the no. 37 is going to have to make a rather sharp turn to get from Acre Lane onto Brixton Hill.



Totally. The gyratory is needed for curtailment so you couldn't cut Effra off. By doing it and forcing everything behind the back of the Church, think about the amount of traffic you are putting through that junction. I'm taking a random kind of prediction that if you did that you would have traffic backing up to the main road. Once that happens in AM peak, you then affect two junctions, back stuff up to the town hall and then you have chaos. Random guess though........ also someone needs a copy of Autotrack  as well as AutoCad


----------



## flash (May 20, 2009)

teuchter said:


> It does seem there's a new bus stop by Windrush square. I wonder if this is relocated from the high street.



Would fall inside London Buses - one stop per route every 400m - as you'd have stops just the other side of the lights about 150m away (or are they moving these?).


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## Crispy (May 21, 2009)

Damn the unfortunate co-location of a major road intersection, shopping center, bus transfer and tube station in one place  I don't think there _is_ one 'best' way to organise Brixton center.


----------



## teuchter (May 21, 2009)

I think the best arrangement would be a proper bus-station type thing with aisles and decent shelters, for southbound buses, taking up part of the tate/windrush square area, with only northbound bus-stops on the high street. Otherwise much as per the current TfL plan.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 21, 2009)

teuchter said:


> It does seem there's a new bus stop by Windrush square. I wonder if this is relocated from the high street.


 

Better not be our bus stop.  In fact, I think they should move our bus stop to outside the tube.  We've been at the far end long enough.  Let the others walk for a change


----------



## teuchter (May 21, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Better not be our bus stop.  In fact, I think they should move our bus stop to outside the tube.  We've been at the far end long enough.  Let the others walk for a change



Time to start a petition.


----------



## Foucault's Wife (May 21, 2009)

18 months for the works to be completed is a horrible thought.  I know that eventually they are going to cut Rushcroft Rd off for through traffic which is good because people drive like loons down there.  But since they've shut off Coldharbour Lane its got even worse, hopefully it won't be closed for long, unless they now extend the pavement more to stop the left turn, then it might be closed for longer.  Anyway all of this means that for the foreseeable future more people are going to be using it again again and again as a cut through driving like idiots and someone is going to get seriously hurt, I am not over exaggerating in the last few weeks since people have been using it instead of Coldharbour, especially coming down from Brixton Hill, I have had some very close shaves. All the congestion is making the idiot drivers even more idiotic.  And breathe...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 21, 2009)

Foucault's Wife said:


> more people are going to be using it again again and again as a cut through driving like idiots and someone is going to get seriously hurt, I am not over exaggerating in the last few weeks since people have been using it instead of Coldharbour, especially coming down from Brixton Hill, I have had some very close shaves. All the congestion is making the idiot drivers even more idiotic.  And breathe...




but we have to put up with that every day on Brixton Hill


----------



## Crispy (May 21, 2009)

I think I've said it already, but I remain amazed how much road they've blocked off. I came home on the bus today and everyone got off before the police station - the traffic from then on is permanantly jammed.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 21, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I think I've said it already, but I remain amazed how much road they've blocked off. I came home on the bus today and everyone got off before the police station - the traffic from then on is permanantly jammed.




Joke innit 

They probably all got off at the police station and got back on outside Woolworths 

I really can't believe it's necessary to do works on both sides of the tube station at once.

With that new turn at Parliament Square I could have got to work on time if it wasn't for all the roadworks in Brixton


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## Foucault's Wife (May 22, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> but we have to put up with that every day on Brixton Hill



The conclusion being bad drivers all over the shop!


----------



## ajdown (May 22, 2009)

Foucault's Wife said:


> The conclusion being bad drivers all over the shop!



... or in it.







http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...ested_After_Six_Injured_In_River_Way,_Andover


----------



## Foucault's Wife (May 22, 2009)

That is really funny aj as that was in my home town! 

Obviously not funny for the folks who ended up in hospital and all...


----------



## ajdown (May 22, 2009)

Indeed.  Drink driving is sadly a problem that happens all over the UK, and the world for that matter.  

What I don't understand about the roadworks on KFC corner is, when I came through this evening, the roadworks were there but nobody working on it.

Yes, it's a bank holiday and all that, but surely being one of the busiest and most important junctions in South London shouldn't they be working almost 24/7 to get it finished?


----------



## Foucault's Wife (May 22, 2009)

Latest reports on Andover's most infamous Rolls driver was that he was, how did the local copper describe it to me Mam, 'not quite all there'.  Apparently he walked into the shop first and said to the security guard, "I am going to drive my car in here."  The guard thought nothing of it because there are bollards around the entrance, so instead he drove further down the font of the shop and drove through the window there.


----------



## flash (May 22, 2009)

ajdown said:


> What I don't understand about the roadworks on KFC corner is, when I came through this evening, the roadworks were there but nobody working on it.



If this is the BT works that someone referred to above, in my view they should be at the very least working on it 7 days a week off peak, as it's got to be a pretty serious fault if they are letting BT carry out the works at the same time TfL has traffic management 150m away on the High Street. TfL's Streetworks section is pretty over the top, bordering on unreasonable in preventing stuff like this from happening as they currently hate clashes. The joint venture that they signed up on a couple of years ago is finally kicking in and their is so much bureaucracy that to get any remote strain of common sense is asking a bit much.   

The only reason that they should have TM up unmanned over a weekend like this is if there is an open trench or risk to the public if the TM wasn't there.


----------



## ajdown (May 22, 2009)

flash said:


> The only reason that they should have TM up unmanned over a weekend like this is if there is an open trench or risk to the public if the TM wasn't there.



I believe there are still a number of big holes there.


----------



## flash (May 22, 2009)

If that's the case they would have to leave the TM in place, as not having seen the site but knowing the road there is just no width to only take the lane out partially. It must be a seriously marginal cost issue though for them to not be at that more frequently. I moved a BT Cabinet last year (it was on the footway and out of harms way) and the team working on it, offered to work 12 hour shifts to get the job done. Must be some specific circumstances.


----------



## ajdown (May 22, 2009)

If nobody else does, I'll try and get down there and take some pictures over the weekend.


----------



## ricbake (May 24, 2009)

These road works are a major mess! Nothing going on in the coned and fenced areas north of Cold Harbour Lane - the bit near the end of Rushbrooke Road is dug up - deep holes both sides of Effra Road leaving only enough width for one vehicle.

Lots and lots of fences and bollards. . . .
looks like they are putting in electrics for lights, cameras and buses for the new layout. Can't tell what the deep pits are for.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/yrGB3Avv3fcy-Ws2qjhuSQ?feat=directlink


----------



## King of Prussia (May 24, 2009)

ricbake said:


> These road works are a major mess! Nothing going on in the coned and fenced areas north of Cold Harbour Lane - the bit near the end of Rushbrooke Road is dug up - deep holes both sides of Effra Road leaving only enough width for one vehicle.
> 
> Lots and lots of fences and bollards. . . .
> looks like they are putting in electrics for lights, cameras and buses for the new layout. Can't tell what the deep pits are for.
> ...



As a pedestrian, I prefer it this way.


----------



## djd98 (May 29, 2009)

*Underway*

Work appears to be under way now on Windrush square. They were removing the iron railings around the edges of the square as I left for work this morning. The whole area is now cordoned off with those metal fences.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 31, 2009)

Just looked at the new plans. What is the purpose of the expanded paved area in the middle of the new square? They need to do something with it or get rid of it. It reminds me of the space in front of peckham library - where nothing also happens, despite them sticking in seats and bland bits of sculpture.

I think a cafe would work well there. Arguing over which sort of cafe it should be is probably a bit counterproductive, since getting *any* sort of cafe would be a victory - I reckon the only cafe to be seriously hit by it would be the Ritzy, which is owned by a big enough company to cope. Toilets would also be good of course, but I think the council's fear of the druggies will stop that happening.


----------



## quimcunx (May 31, 2009)

So is traffic going to go straight up brixton hill and turn left for Effra road buses, then?  

I'm not feeling particularly optimistic that I'm going to use the new space any more than I use the current one.   Current usage is nil apart from a go on the swings once in a while.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 31, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> So is traffic going to go straight up brixton hill and turn left for Effra road buses, then?
> 
> I'm not feeling particularly optimistic that I'm going to use the new space any more than I use the current one.   Current usage is nil apart from a go on the swings once in a while.




It will be two ways up Brixton Hill, but I'm still confused about Effra Road.  I think they're keeping it open (for bus stops) but I'm not sure whether it'll just be a terminus for buses or whether the Tulse Hill buses will go up there.

I don't understand those TFL maps 

Have a look at the map Crispy's posted up, or the TFL website


----------



## Crispy (May 31, 2009)

Effra road traffic remains the same as it currently is. the major difference is that all Brixton hill traffic goes straight through without having to go round the church first.


----------



## quimcunx (May 31, 2009)

So what are they joining up?  

Oh, never mind.  I'll just wait and see.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 31, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> So what are they joining up?
> 
> Oh, never mind.  I'll just wait and see.




Windrush Square with the Ritzy 


















I think


----------



## nick h. (May 31, 2009)

I don't know whether this has already been said, but the Ritzy's new ground floor restaurant will have pavement tables where the current entrance is. This will happen by July. So I suppose the Ritzy will be the new Windrush Sq. cafe? 

Perhaps this is partly why the PCSOs are giving the drinkers on the low walls by the bicycle racks so much attention at the moment. (Yesterday they said they were using the dispersal zone powers to get rid of anyone who swore.)


----------



## Brainaddict (May 31, 2009)

nick h. said:


> I don't know whether this has already been said, but the Ritzy's new ground floor restaurant will have pavement tables where the current entrance is. This will happen by July. So I suppose the Ritzy will be the new Windrush Sq. cafe?



Ah, I did not know that - could be quite nice (even though the Ritzy can't make decent coffee). It might annoy the street drinkers a bit but they're about to get a big new granite bench twenty yards away


----------



## Planty (Jun 1, 2009)

They've cut the trees down  :-(


----------



## story (Jun 1, 2009)

Planty said:


> They've cut the trees down  :-(



Oh they haven't.... 

I was afraid that they would.


----------



## flash (Jun 1, 2009)

Remember this was one of Ken's 100 Public Spaces for Londoner's - this was part of the first tranche of projects. Last time I checked Lambeth was a red borough wasn't it?


----------



## ajdown (Jun 1, 2009)

Planty said:


> They've cut the trees down  :-(



I noticed the trees, and lights, lying on the ground this evening as I went past on the bus.

You'd have thought they would have been able to replant them or something, they weren't especially big.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 1, 2009)

flash said:


> Last time I checked Lambeth was a red borough wasn't it?



Hopefully only for a few more days...


----------



## flash (Jun 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I noticed the trees, and lights, lying on the ground this evening as I went past on the bus.
> 
> You'd have thought they would have been able to replant them or something, they weren't especially big.



From a technical point of view, there is a British Standard for working around trees (can't remember the number off of the top of my head have a copy in my desk) that virtually prohibits construction work within about 12 meters of a tree (e.g. the root protection area - the standard is absolute overkill and can be worked around but is an absolute pain in the arse for engineers). By cutting them down at the start I should imagine this would resolve the problem, with a view to replanting a more aesthetically pleasing brand once all of the works have been carried out.


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 1, 2009)

(((trees)))


----------



## story (Jun 1, 2009)

flash said:


> From a technical point of view, there is a British Standard for working around trees (can't remember the number off of the top of my head have a copy in my desk) that virtually prohibits construction work within about 12 meters of a tree (e.g. the root protection area - the standard is absolute overkill and can be worked around but is an absolute pain in the arse for engineers). By cutting them down at the start I should imagine this would resolve the problem, with a view to replanting a more aesthetically pleasing brand once all of the works have been carried out.



They did some work at the bottom of our street a couple of months ago. There was a lovely great big Dawn Redwood there. They worked for a week straight, and then cut the tree down on the last day of the works.


----------



## flash (Jun 1, 2009)

story said:


> They did some work at the bottom of our street a couple of months ago. There was a lovely great big Dawn Redwood there. They worked for a week straight, and then cut the tree down on the last day of the works.



Just because there are British Standards it doesn't mean people obey them. The most easy one to fall foul of is that no lamp column should support a sign over 0.30 square meters. I've broken this in recent months (I flagged it, but was over ruled by my seniors as I was told that I was creating "street clutter" and my contractor thought I was kidding......)


----------



## story (Jun 1, 2009)

flash said:


> Just because there are British Standards it doesn't mean people obey them. The most easy one to fall foul of is that no lamp column should support a sign over 0.30 square meters. I've broken this in recent months (I flagged it, but was over ruled by my seniors as I was told that I was creating "street clutter" and my contractor thought I was kidding......)



I was thinking, though, that since the work was all but completed, they could have left the mature tree there, on a traffic island where it was soaking up pollution and giving off O2.

I'm fully aware that bureaucracy and guidelines are largely crap, if not in the creation then in the administration.


----------



## flash (Jun 1, 2009)

story said:


> I was thinking, though, that since the work was all but completed, they could have left the mature tree there, on a traffic island where it was soaking up pollution and giving off O2.
> 
> I'm fully aware that bureaucracy and guidelines are largely crap, if not in the creation then in the administration.



Totally, I just wanted to illustrate the point of some of the numerous stupid hoops that we have to try and jump through to get anything done.

Given that landscape architects are involved in the square though - I have a serious downer on them through numerous bad experiences I have had whilst working with several different practices - I just imagine that it's poor management at some point. Either the trees where deemed a health and safety risk and cut down on CDM  grounds prior to any major works, maybe they were adhering to the British Standard, or maybe they were going to go anyway as they would clash in terms of colour with the new paving and mood (or whatever the "in" term is) that the square will generate.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 1, 2009)

Did the railings get scrapped as well   

There must have been other open spaces in the Borough that would have been happy to take those expensive bits of ironmongery to replace collapsing boundary fences, even though they came complete with pseudo-Edwardian LBL roundels.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 1, 2009)

kitty_kitty said:


> (((trees)))



seconded.


----------



## brix (Jun 2, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> seconded.


Thirded


----------



## ajdown (Jun 2, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> Did the railings get scrapped as well



Looked like it when I went past on the bus this morning.

However, I think they've been taken away as they would probably have been stolen overnight otherwise.

Curiously enough, the bins are still standing.


----------



## Bob (Jun 2, 2009)

ARgh. Bloody Labour's schemes! 

This seems to be the general 'regeneration' approach taken by Lambeth:

1. Cut down trees (Brixton / Brockwell park), demolish railings / old buildings (Brixton / Brockwell park), take slice off park (Brockwell park).

2. Pedestrianise un-necessarily (Brockwell / HH/ Brixton)

3. Turf out street drinkers and destroy their places to drink (Brixton / Brockwell)

4. Spend a fortune doing it - £7m in Brixton IIRC

5. Assume nice big pedestrian areas will work better than elsewhere in Lambeth in attracting drug dealing.

Why??  

There are so many things locally that a tiny amount of cash could sort out - like potholes for cyclists, leaking drains, streetlighting, pavements that have fishy water lurking under them. Why are Labour so obsessed by these huge schemes?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob said:


> There are so many things locally that a tiny amount of cash could sort out - like potholes for cyclists,


 


Why do you want potholes for cyclists Bob?


----------



## Bob (Jun 2, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why do you want potholes for cyclists Bob?



Pah! 

Actually it's a joint TFL / Lambeth problem.

A TFL pothole on Brixton road last year gave me a puncture, let alone the daily swerves / bumps on my commute.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob said:


> Pah!
> 
> Actually it's a joint TFL / Lambeth problem.
> 
> A TFL pothole on Brixton road last year gave me a puncture, let alone the daily swerves / bumps on my commute.


 

Sorry  

The scariest pothole (and I'm not a cyclist) I've regularly gone across (on a bus) is one as you come past Kennington Park on to Brixton Road.  I often used to think the bus was going to topple over


----------



## tarannau (Jun 2, 2009)

The street drinking crew, now displaced to outside St Matthews, were receiving a lot of attention from about 7 coppers and a similar number of PCSOs this afternoon.

It all seemed good tempered, if a little weary on both sides. But it does appear that they're trying to crack down on things. I do worry that dispersing the drinkers all around the place will lead to more chaotic and destructive consequences - in a strange way the size of the drinking group helps to regulate their their behaviour and ensure some kind of support.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 2, 2009)

I wish they'd "crack down" on people acting anti-socially, rather than people drinking.

If they tried to "crack down" on any other group of people, a minority of whose members cause trouble, it wouldn't go down too well would it.


----------



## Foucault's Wife (Jun 2, 2009)

> Why are Labour so obsessed by these huge schemes?


Just like their overlords in Westminster 

Anyway the Rt. Hon Mrs 88pence Bath Plug has gone so it is time for rejoicing   Although how much policing will change under the next one who knows, it seems to only get worse with each successive NuLab Home Secretary.


----------



## flash (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob said:


> There are so many things locally that a tiny amount of cash could sort out - like potholes for cyclists, leaking drains, streetlighting, pavements that have fishy water lurking under them. Why are Labour so obsessed by these huge schemes?



They all come out of different pots of money, dependent upon who's road it is (Highway Authority) and in most cases the large sums aren't interchangeable. As London's roads or the TLRN is in a reasonably good state (no really), I reckon that they have probably decreased funding for that kind of thing by about 30% over the last 10 years as the standard of carriageway construction has improved so much (until BT come along to dig it up). Boris's proposed changes won't make the blindest bit of difference. It all comes down to local politics, and whichever local nutter shouts loudest.


----------



## Bob (Jun 2, 2009)

flash said:


> They all come out of different pots of money, dependent upon who's road it is (Highway Authority) and in most cases the large sums aren't interchangeable. As London's roads or the TLRN is in a reasonably good state (no really), I reckon that they have probably decreased funding for that kind of thing by about 30% over the last 10 years as the standard of carriageway construction has improved so much (until BT come along to dig it up). Boris's proposed changes won't make the blindest bit of difference. It all comes down to local politics, and whichever local nutter shouts loudest.



That's true in terms of pots - but they're all paid at tax by somebody - so ultimately if it's wasted it's wasted.

I'm now beginning to worry about the big tree outside the Ritzy - it's looking very vulnerable next to its felled colleague.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob said:


> That's true in terms of pots - but they're all paid at tax by somebody - so ultimately if it's wasted it's wasted.
> 
> I'm now beginning to worry about the big tree outside the Ritzy - it's looking very vulnerable next to its felled colleague.



Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! 


Let's get together and hug it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2009)

Maybe it's the one tree that will survive the cull?



> Main improvements for the final phase include:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2009)

You can see the plane tree on this map (albeit an invisible tree)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Brixton-Square.pdf


----------



## honto (Jun 2, 2009)

What is Windrush-shaped lighting?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2009)

honto said:


> What is Windrush-shaped lighting?




I wondered that myself.

Maybe it's going to be lots of little portholes


----------



## teuchter (Jun 3, 2009)

honto said:


> What is Windrush-shaped lighting?



Lighting shaped like windrushes.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 3, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Lighting shaped like windrushes.



That's what I had heard.   This has the potential 
either to be a really intiguing piece of public art that gets popular appeal 
or something that lasts a few months before it meets the same fate as Vong Phaophanit's _Ash and Silk Wall_ at the Thames Barrier

The apparent lack of engagement with local schools etc. makes me pessimistic that it might be the latter, but I remain prepared to be convinced.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 3, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Lighting shaped like windrushes.




portholes would have been better 

or even the whole boat.  Indeed, it could be floated up the reinstated Effra River


----------



## teuchter (Jun 3, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> That's what I had heard.   This has the potential
> either to be a really intiguing piece of public art that gets popular appeal
> or something that lasts a few months before it meets the same fate as Vong Phaophanit's _Ash and Silk Wall_ at the Thames Barrier
> 
> The apparent lack of engagement with local schools etc. makes me pessimistic that it might be the latter, but I remain prepared to be convinced.



I'm not really sure that "engagement with local schools etc" is necessarily the way to achieve good urban design or public art. Just make some effort to find some good designers, give them a good brief and a decent budget (and I'm tempted to say, don't put them through so many "consultations" with local primary school kids that there is no chance of anything coherent coming out the other end).

Its sucess will probably largely depend on it being made (and maintained) well, and not easily trashed.*

I actually rather like the idea of the windrush lighting; a reference that is somewhat literal but also a bit oblique. Most people probably won't make the connection unprompted when they first see it, but will do so at some point. The sort of thing that, once you notice it, is quite satisfying.

A bit like the swan in the Stockwell tube station motifs...


* ETA: Oh, I see that's what happened to the Thames Barrier thing you mentioned


----------



## ajdown (Jun 3, 2009)

honto said:


> What is Windrush-shaped lighting?



Looking here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Brixton-Square.pdf what is marked as "Windrush Lights" looks more like something out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind rather than a boat.  

All looks a bit wanky to me, to be honest.  I guess this is what happens when you let "urban planners" loose on things.


----------



## honto (Jun 4, 2009)

I didn't even know windrushes were a type of plant! I'd never thought about where the boats name came from. Sounds like it could be quite nice. As long as its not another random scattering of blue lights in the pavement a la the tube entrance.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 4, 2009)

Well it does say on the plan "windrush lights" and unless the lights are in the shape of the plant, my guess is it's a "random scattering of blue lights" that might loosely approximate the shape of a boat.

Although it doesn't look like the shape of _anything_ on the plan...


----------



## teuchter (Jun 4, 2009)

Again:

It is lighting shaped like windrushes.


Hence the description "windrush shaped lighting".


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Again:
> 
> It is lighting shaped like windrushes.
> 
> ...




yeah, but it doesn't look like that on the plans


----------



## Planty (Jun 4, 2009)

There isn't a plant called a windrush.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 4, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Again:
> 
> It is lighting shaped like windrushes.
> 
> ...



But why haven't we got sight of an image of the design


----------



## Planty (Jun 4, 2009)

Unless I'm wrong of course..


----------



## teuchter (Jun 4, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> yeah, but it doesn't look like that on the plans





Planty said:


> There isn't a plant called a windrush.





lang rabbie said:


> But why haven't we got sight of an image of the design





Planty said:


> Unless I'm wrong of course..






> Lights will be embedded by the new trees, in the pavement and
> on *tall structures which have been created to look like windrushes* –
> a reference to the Empire Windrush, the ship that carried
> passengers from Jamaica to the UK in 1948, many of whom
> settled in the Brixton area.



http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Transforming-Brixton-Town-Centre-Phase-Three.pdf


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 4, 2009)

But the troopship HMT Empire Windrush was presumably named for the *River Windrush* 

- given that other troopships included HMT Empire Clyde, HMT Empire Deben, HMT Empire Fowey,  HMT Empire Halladale, HMT Empire Orwell, HMT Empire Test, HMT Empire Ken - most of which appear to be rivers noted for their angling.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 4, 2009)

So what was the River Windrush named after?

(While you're at it, what was Rush Common named after? Anything to do with rushes or something completely different?)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

teuchter said:


> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Transforming-Brixton-Town-Centre-Phase-Three.pdf




Ah, the tall structures look like windrushes, *not *the lights themselves?


----------



## Crispy (Jun 4, 2009)

Can't find a definitive source for rush common, but all signs point to yes, just rushes.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

I wonder if those tall things in the corner are the Windrush Lights


----------



## Crispy (Jun 4, 2009)

that's an ancient image, nothing to do with the current scheme


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 4, 2009)

> *Windrush (River).*
> 
> 779 Wenrisc (Gloucs.). C.D. i. 165, ch. 137.
> 1044 Waenric. Ibid. iv. 92, ch. 775, c.
> ...



From a badly scanned copy on Archive.org
of THE PLACE-NAMES OF OXFORDSHIRE - THEIR ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT BY HENRY ALEXANDER, M.A. (LIVERPOOL), OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS 1912


----------



## teuchter (Jun 4, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Ah, the tall structures look like windrushes, *not *the lights themselves?



I am above such pedantry.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

Crispy said:


> that's an ancient image, nothing to do with the current scheme





yeah, I figured that from a write-up I saw of their plans from 2004.

Their website's shite.  You'd think they'd update it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

I hope our fountain is a bit more impressive than this


----------



## Crispy (Jun 4, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Their website's shite.  You'd think they'd update it



jeez, you haven't seen my company's website. it's right out of 1998. the text is white arial. the background is this hard primary blue. designed for a 800x600 screen and internet explorer 4.0


----------



## Planty (Jun 4, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Ah, the tall structures look like windrushes, *not *the lights themselves?



Aha!  The (ex?) structure look like the non-existent plant, whereas the lights don't.  Hmm...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> But the troopship HMT Empire Windrush was presumably named for the *River Windrush*
> 
> - given that other troopships included HMT Empire Clyde, HMT Empire Deben, HMT Empire Fowey,  HMT Empire Halladale, HMT Empire Orwell, HMT Empire Test, HMT Empire Ken - most of which appear to be rivers noted for their angling.




Why's there no HMT Empire Effra eh?


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 4, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why's there no HMT Empire Effra eh?



Probably because when they were naming the troopships no fish had spawned in the Effra for 150 years and it was only known as a sewer.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

Crispy said:


> jeez, you haven't seen my company's website. it's right out of 1998. the text is white arial. the background is this hard primary blue. designed for a 800x600 screen and internet explorer 4.0




Are you sure it's not the BSOD?  

Why are architects so unable to design a decent website then?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> Probably because when they were naming the troopships no fish had spawned in the Effra for 150 years and it was only known as a sewer.




They could have had an HMS Empire Rewes as it sounds better than sewer


----------



## story (Jun 4, 2009)

Windrush Square looks like a fucking bombsite.

And we've got this for another two years, yes?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

story said:


> Windrush Square looks like a fucking bombsite.
> 
> And we've got this for another two years, yes?




Near end of 2010 I think


----------



## lang rabbie (Jun 19, 2009)

*Brixton Hillites - prepare for eight weeks of morning northbound bus chaos*

The three stops outside the Town Hall are going to be closed.  All the town hall staff/people heading for locations off Acre Lane, as well as folk who normally get off the bus a stop early to avoid the chaos outside Morleys will be forced to sweat it out on a crowded bus through however many frustating light changes it takes to get to the stops at Brixton Tube.

I'd allow an extra five minutes for your journey and get off at Olive Morris House!



> Some bus stops in Brixton will be closed from Monday 22 June for approximately eight weeks, as part of stage three of works by Transport for London (TfL) to upgrade Brixton Town Centre.
> 
> If your bus stop is affected, please use the bus stop before or after the closed stop.
> 
> ...


----------



## nick h. (Jun 20, 2009)

Why have they fenced off the area round the tree when there's no work going on? Fucking fuckwits. There's nowhere to sit any more. All we can do is watch money being squandered. Whoever's responsible for this fuck-up should be put in the stocks.


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 20, 2009)

at least they've not chopped the tree down - i was getting worried about it after the shredding of the trees in the grassy bit


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 20, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Why have they fenced off the area round the tree when there's no work going on? Fucking fuckwits. There's nowhere to sit any more. All we can do is watch money being squandered. Whoever's responsible for this fuck-up should be put in the stocks.




They've fenced off Henry Tate as well.

Maybe it's to avoid workmen accidentally knocking them down


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## ajdown (Jun 21, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Why have they fenced off the area round the tree when there's no work going on? Fucking fuckwits. There's nowhere to sit any more. All we can do is watch money being squandered. Whoever's responsible for this fuck-up should be put in the stocks.



Unless you wanted to sit with the assembled alcoholics, there never really was anywhere to sit around that area.

Central Brixton is horribly devoid of anywhere nice to sit when you need it, unless one of those uncomfortable bus stop benches is your idea of acceptable.

I notice the bit between Morleys and Body Shop seems to be flat now, the seated bits that were there have gone.  Does anyone know if they're going to put some benches in there?

I'd have thought that in the wide bit under the "going past" railway bridge rather than the station would have done well to get a couple of seats.

Which department of the council is it to write to that deals with this aspect?  Seems like they have plenty of ideas to put in bicycle racks cluttering the place up but nothing for the pedestrians?  Sometimes it's nice to just sit down for five minutes and rest your legs, especially on a hot day with that bit under the bridge being generally shaded.


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## Bob (Jun 23, 2009)

Lots of work going on at the square at 8:30 this morning.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 23, 2009)

Bob said:


> Lots of work going on at the square at 8:30 this morning.


 

Yes, I noticed they'd dug up all the grass.  Obviously I didn't actually see them doing it.  I think the fairies probably did it in the middle of the night.


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## Greebo (Jun 23, 2009)

Saw some use of a digger outside the library around 2 today  - and a different type of digger (small bulldozer?) was blocking part of the traffic but not doing much else on the Acre Lane side around noon.


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