# National divides in sport



## Biffo (Sep 9, 2005)

Following the recent spats between English & Welsh football fans on these boards which have seen both threads binned, I thought this article was quite interesting:

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...o-your-sporting-loyalties-lie--name_page.html

This is mainly for information only but feel free to discuss. Hopefully it won't turn into another bickering contest - I hates arguing I do


----------



## Belushi (Sep 9, 2005)

Wales are my first team and England my second (my Mums English and have spent the majority of my life here). But I was born in Oz so support them on occasions too.

I've got all the bases covered me


----------



## Brockway (Sep 9, 2005)

You can divorce your parents these days mate.  

I want Ingurland to lose at everything.

Up the City


----------



## fanta (Sep 10, 2005)

Ultimately, I really don't care _that_ much who wins.

Often, it is more interesting to see the 'underdog' pull of a victory, it can be very entertaining.

I find it very very very strange that some people - maybe most people - can get so passionate and concerned about a sport that they really do get upset.

I suppose I should sympathise really, but I can't help being amused and thinking 'silly bastard'

_'Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting.'_


----------



## Brockway (Sep 10, 2005)

Heard a Radio 4 programme recently where an English Prof. of History referred to Boudicca as a "true English heroine". The fact that she lived before any English people arrived here; spoke a language that wasn't English; and that *England never even existed at the time*, didn't seem to bother the confused academic. It is worrying though when supposed intellectuals can't tell the difference between English and Britonic. Or maybe he was just another Englishman in denial about his country's Teutonic roots and was wilfully re-writing history.

Anyway, he should be deported along with the Von Windsors.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2005)

From that article:
"If you live in Basingstoke it's doubtful whether you would feel proud of being from Basingstoke so you would emphasise your Englishness instead."


----------



## Hollis (Sep 10, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Heard a Radio 4 programme recently where an English Prof. of History referredOr maybe he was just another Englishman in denial about his country's Teutonic roots and was wilfully re-writing history.
> 
> Anyway, he should be deported along with the Von Windsors.



Or maybe like most people he doesn't give a shite about his country's' "Teutonic" roots or the rest of this nonsense.  

In anwer to Biffos question I also find it weird that some people can be so po-faced about a football match or their nation.  Its not exactly Rawanda we're talking about.


----------



## Brockway (Sep 10, 2005)

Anglo-Saxons don't like to recognise their Germanic heritage because to acknowledge it is to concede that they are interlopers. Much better to rewrite history and pretend that they have always been here. Or choose to call themselves 'British' whenever it suits.

Celtic fans refer to the English as 'the Hun'.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 10, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Anglo-Saxons don't like to recognise their Germanic heritage because to acknowledge it is to concede that they are interlopers. Much better to rewrite history and pretend that they have always been here. Or choose to call themselves 'British' whenever it suits.



I couldn't care less.  Do you? - Still I'm sure the BNP would be interested in the sort of thing you consider so relevant to living in Britain today.   

<yawn>


----------



## Hollis (Sep 10, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> From that article:
> "If you live in Basingstoke it's doubtful whether you would feel proud of being from Basingstoke so you would emphasise your Englishness instead."



Yes, yes, yes.. I'm sure all the folk from Port Talbot and Neath are over the moon about the fact..


----------



## Karac (Sep 10, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Yes, yes, yes.. I'm sure all the folk from Port Talbot and Neath are over the moon about the fact..


On the cooking Sherry again Hoolis?


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Biffo said:
			
		

> Following the recent spats between English & Welsh football fans on these boards which have seen both threads binned, I thought this article was quite interesting:
> 
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...o-your-sporting-loyalties-lie--name_page.html
> 
> This is mainly for information only but feel free to discuss. Hopefully it won't turn into another bickering contest - I hates arguing I do



I think the intersting thing about those threads was the fact the english were gloating about beating the Welsh ( which they really shouldn't have done since it was a lucky win ) then the Welsh gloated about Northern Ireland beating England* ! 

It seems strange that people take pleasure from something compltely unrelated to the team they support !



* obviously that was partly in response to the attitude of a minority of England fans !


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Heard a Radio 4 programme recently where an English Prof. of History referred to Boudicca as a "true English heroine". The fact that she lived before any English people arrived here; spoke a language that wasn't English; and that *England never even existed at the time*, didn't seem to bother the confused academic. It is worrying though when supposed intellectuals can't tell the difference between English and Britonic. Or maybe he was just another Englishman in denial about his country's Teutonic roots and was wilfully re-writing history.
> 
> Anyway, he should be deported along with the Von Windsors.



so your saying anyone who hasn't got a direct lineage to the original population of this island are interlopers and should be deported ! Nice attitude you have there !


----------



## Karac (Sep 11, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> so your saying anyone who hasn't got a direct lineage to the original population of this island are interlopers and should be deported ! Nice attitude you have there !


Nope the point is a Sais academic referred to Boudicca as being an "English" heroine at a time when their were no "English" in Britain.
Its not a point of debate-its historical fact.
I notice you highlighted "England never even existed at the time"-it didnt.  
The rest of the comment was,i assume,tongue in cheek-sorry you didnt pick up on it.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 11, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Anglo-Saxons don't like to recognise their Germanic heritage because to acknowledge it is to concede that they are interlopers.



Why the need to "concede".. I suppose Colin Jackson's an 'interloper' awell.. the wolf in sheeps clothing etc. etc.   

You see this is the main problem with you, and some Welsh posters frame of reference.


----------



## Karac (Sep 11, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Why the need to "concede".. I suppose Colin Jackson's an 'interloper' awell.. the wolf in sheeps clothing etc. etc.
> 
> You see this is the main problem with you, and some Welsh posters frame of reference.


Oh bugger off hoolis-strangely enough i went to school with Colin Jackson.
Great memory-Colin Jackson just won a medal in the Olympics.
*cut to patronising BBC presenter with Colin Jacksons Dad*
"So it must feel great that your sons won a medal for Britain"
*angry looking Dad*
"its an even better day for Wales"


----------



## Hollis (Sep 11, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Oh bugger off hoolis-strangely enough i went to school with




Or maybe make a sensible point about these "interloper" comments ?.... 

<zzzzz>


----------



## Karac (Sep 11, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Or maybe make a sensible point about these "interloper" comments ?....
> 
> <zzzzz>


Why dont you make a sensible comment _at all_ !


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Sep 11, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Heard a Radio 4 programme recently where an English Prof. of History referred to Boudicca as a "true English heroine". The fact that she lived before any English people arrived here; spoke a language that wasn't English; and that *England never even existed at the time*, didn't seem to bother the confused academic. It is worrying though when supposed intellectuals can't tell the difference between English and Britonic. Or maybe he was just another Englishman in denial about his country's Teutonic roots and was wilfully re-writing history.
> 
> Anyway, he should be deported along with the Von Windsors.



Is that you ern?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Sep 11, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> I think the intersting thing about those threads was the fact the english *were gloating about beating the Welsh* ( which they really shouldn't have done since it was a lucky win ) then the Welsh gloated about Northern Ireland beating England* !
> 
> It seems strange that people take pleasure from something compltely unrelated to the team they support !
> * obviously that was partly in response to the attitude of a minority of England fans !



No we bloody weren't.  Most of us were saying that it was a mediocre performance by England and that we were lucky to win.


----------



## fanta (Sep 11, 2005)

Hahaha    this thread reminds me of passionate footy fans.   

It's tribal.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 11, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Why dont you make a sensible comment _at all_ !



I have...you fool!!!  I dunno when did anyone _ever_ get any sense out of karac.. ain't gonna happen..


----------



## Brockway (Sep 11, 2005)

_so your saying anyone who hasn't got a direct lineage to the original population of this island are interlopers and should be deported !_

No. You're putting words into my mouth there.


----------



## Brockway (Sep 11, 2005)

'_interloper_', in this case, refers to an invading people ie the anglo-saxons.

What on earth are you going on about Colin Jackson for? Did Colin Jackson invade Ancient Britain or have I missed something?


----------



## Hollis (Sep 11, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Anglo-Saxons don't like to recognise their Germanic heritage because to acknowledge it is to concede that they are interlopers.



Back to your original comment ernie.. who cares??

It all happened a long long time ago.. get over it.   I don't see the Anglo-Saxons getting similarly uptight about their years of servitude spent under the Norman masters.. (crikey!! that's almost recent history).


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 11, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Back to your original comment ernie.. who cares??
> 
> It all happened a long long time ago.. get over it.   I don't see the Anglo-Saxons getting similarly uptight about their years of servitude spent under the Norman masters.. (crikey!! that's almost recent history).



Don't you ever watch Robin Hood?


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 11, 2005)

Get over it?

The effects are still present , financially and culturally.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 11, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Get over it?
> 
> The effects are still present , financially and culturally.



Nah - far too many intervening factors inbetween.. unless your able to turn _everything_ into a nationalist issue.. which I know is an art well practiced around here.


----------



## Brockway (Sep 11, 2005)

_It all happened a long long time ago.. get over it._

Thanks for the advice. Just out of interest, after how many years exactly do the colonized accept the rule of the colonizer? Should the Chechens, for example, just get on with being part of Russia? The Basques just knuckle down and accept that they are Spanish? Or should they cling on to their culture and identity for as long as it takes. Enlighten me, when should the Basques accept colonization - today, 100 years from now or a 1000?

And who or what is 'ernie'?


----------



## Brockway (Sep 11, 2005)

_I don't see the Anglo-Saxons getting similarly uptight about their years of servitude spent under the Norman masters._

Oh come on, the English generally loath the French and it's not exactly a recent phenomenon is it? 

Latent Franco-phobia is always manifesting itself. Don't tell me you can't remember the infamous Sun article where they said all French people stink?


----------



## Hollis (Sep 11, 2005)

You are ernie.. and I claim me £10.

welcome back..


----------



## fanta (Sep 12, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> _It all happened a long long time ago.. get over it._
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Just out of interest, after how many years exactly do the colonized accept the rule of the colonizer? Should the Chechens, for example, just get on with being part of Russia? The Basques just knuckle down and accept that they are Spanish? Or should they cling on to their culture and identity for as long as it takes. Enlighten me, when should the Basques accept colonization - today, 100 years from now or a 1000?



Of course not. The Chechens should take hundreds of women and children as hostages and tortue and massacre them while the Basques should detonate car bombs killing civilians and holiday makers. Meanwhile, bull-shiters like you can take your revenge on centuries of howwid English opression by chanting assinine bigoted chants at footy matchs - well duh!


----------



## Brockway (Sep 12, 2005)

_you can take your revenge on centuries of howwid English opression by chanting assinine bigoted chants at footy matchs _ 

Thanks. But, just out of interest, do tell me what asinine, bigoted chants I've been er, chanting, at football matches... I'd love to know. And you really need to have a look at England's horrendous catalogue of racism and bigotry at football matches before you start making unfounded accusations about sweet and innocent Wales supporters like myself. For example - did you hear what Ingurland fans were chanting at Turkish supporters? And remember when Ingurland fans pelted Ireland supporters with seats and were seen openly seig-heiling? And at Old Trafford Ingurland fans chanted "sheepsh*ggers" throughout our anthem. So what's England's excuse?

 

And I'm definitely not 'Ernie'. Sorry.


----------



## Brockway (Sep 12, 2005)

Oh, and not every Chechen is a killer and not every Basque is a car bomber. It's a bit reductive to see them in such hysterical tabloid stereotypes don't you think? When should your average (non-ETA) Basque accept colonization? Can you put a figure on it?

If the Nazis had conquered England. At what point should the English have accepted colonization by their German cousins? Immediately, after a hundred years, or a thousand? Do tell me.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 12, 2005)

Sigh. My Cuntalert(TM) tells me that cunts are present on this thread


----------



## Biffo (Sep 12, 2005)

I guess I have to take responsibility for starting this thread. I might have guessed that the usual bitterness would raise it's ugly head again.

We might just as well start dissecting England's Ashes win and discuss whether they would have won without the Welsh and South African boys.

Some people on here would be better off buying a couple of guns, shaving their hair into a mohican and cleaning all the scum of the streets.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 12, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Sigh. My Cuntalert(TM) tells me that cunts are present on this thread



God you're a prickly tosser aren't you.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 12, 2005)

Biffo said:
			
		

> Some people on here would be better off buying a couple of guns, shaving their hair into a mohican and cleaning all the scum of the streets.



Yes - you for starters.


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 13, 2005)

Hollis, what do you think about an English academic referring to Boudicea as an 'English heroine'?


----------



## Hollis (Sep 13, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Hollis, what do you think about an English academic referring to Boudicea as an 'English heroine'?



Definetly sloppy history.  Although nation is to an extent defined by geography.  I'm sure there's plenty of Italian and German academics who probably refer to past historical figures as Italian and German prior to those nations exisitng as such.  I don't however draw the inferences of brockway.


----------



## fanta (Sep 13, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> It's a bit reductive to see them in such hysterical tabloid stereotypes don't you think?






			
				Brockway said:
			
		

> Oh come on, the English generally loath the French and it's not exactly a recent phenomenon is it?



Er, oh dear...   




			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> Sigh. My Cuntalert(TM) tells me that cunts are present on this thread



Oh come one bendeus, be patient and cut poor Brocky a bit of slack - maybe one day he will be as brilliant and accomplished a poster as you?!


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

Sad to see another decent thread ruined by tweedledum and tweedletwat


----------



## Hollis (Sep 13, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Sad to see another decent thread ruined by tweedledum and tweedletwat



See another twat springs to life..    Anything to contribute to the thread?


----------



## fanta (Sep 13, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Sad to see another decent thread ruined by tweedledum and tweedletwat



The thread took a downward spiral when we were blessed with this frothing nonsense:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3511027&postcount=5

So do try not to be tedious - unless you actually have anything to say about national divides in sport?

No, thought not.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> So do try not to be tedious - unless you actually have anything to say about national divides in sport?
> 
> No, thought not.



Try reading the second post on the thread


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> See another twat springs to life..    Anything to contribute to the thread?



Nice to see you back with more of your bigotry hollis, how was the banning?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 13, 2005)

*taps fingers irritably*

This looks like a load of personal squabbling to me. Take it outside.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

There is actually a serious thread in here about sport and nationalism if the trolling stops.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 13, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> There is actually a serious thread in here about sport and nationalism if the trolling stops.



Yes and you, karac and bendeus are trolling the thread.. Why don't you look up bigotry.. an intolerance of opinions different to your own.  That is exactly your problem.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Yes and you, karac and bendeus are trolling the thread.. Why don't you look up bigotry.. an intolerance of opinions different to your own.  That is exactly your problem.



Really? have you actually read my posts on this thread or is it that you cant help yourself when the subject of wales comes up?


----------



## Hollis (Sep 13, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Really? have you actually read my posts on this thread or is it that you cant help yourself when the subject of wales comes up?



Yes.. and fascinating to.. I just wonder why you returned to the thread, failed to take on board any of the points made by me & others and just engaged in abuse. I'd call that bigotry. - Ditto karac & bendeus. 

If you're discussing issues of national identity, just because its the 'Welsh' forum, doesn't mean that opinions other than those you like/agree with can't be expressed.


----------



## fanta (Sep 13, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> There is actually a serious thread in here about sport and nationalism if the trolling stops.



Agreed.

When did it start?

Which post number?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> 
> When did it start?
> 
> Which post number?



Posts 1 - 7.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

> Yes.. and fascinating to.. I just wonder why you returned to the thread, failed to take on board any of the points made by me & others and just engaged in abuse. I'd call that bigotry. - Ditto karac & bendeus.



But you didnt make any serious points Hollis, its just the same old thinly disguised anti-Welsh bigotry we've learnt to expect from you.

Seriously man, I'm sorry you had a bad time in wales but you really need to get over it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 13, 2005)

If everybody is agreed that there is a serious issue to discuss on the thread maybe they could *make posts discussing it*.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 13, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> But you didnt make any serious points Hollis, its just the same old thinly disguised anti-Welsh bigotry we've learnt to expect from you.
> 
> Seriously man, I'm sorry you had a bad time in wales but you really need to get over it.



I'm afraid I've made quite afew serious points actually.. its just that you choose to ignore them and start screaming 'bigot'. - There's no anti-Welsh bigotry from me.  Though, you'll find an intolerance of some of the lazy anti-English crap that gets posted up.. but seems to pass as okay. 

And by the way, I've never had a bad time in Wales.. some of the roads are abit crap though.

FM - point now taken.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

> I'm afraid I've made quite afew serious points actually..



Really, if you could point them out to us...


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Yes, yes, yes.. I'm sure all the folk from Port Talbot and Neath are over the moon about the fact..



Neath of course has a great sporting heritage as the home of the 'Welsh All Blacks' and now one of the homes of the Ospreys.


----------



## colacho (Sep 15, 2005)

Well, that article sounds like the usual load of old codswallop produced by the media when they try and comment on dullard academics. 
Supporting anyone but England at anything is a measure of nationalist feeling. Anyone who supports England at anything is an Uncle Tom as far as I'm concerned. I'll support Argentina, even Germany, rather than the _sais_. During the last World Cup the Tywi valley was decked out in Brazil flags before the Brazil-England game. Fucking great, I say. I watched that match in Manchester with 250 England fans and couldn't stay in my seat when Rivaldo equalised (it was a brilliant goal though, with that run by Ronaldinho). Fair play to them, they didn't lynch me, in fact I think they behaved impeccably, to the point that I actually apologised to the guy next to me for shrieking in glee when Ronaldinho fluked that second Brazil goal. Before the Beckham-Simeone debacle match in 98 I spent 50 quid on an Argentina shirt (I was living in England at the time) just to piss them off. I wore it for a week afterwards- it was lovely. But it never turned nasty, which is how it should be.

But this whole topic really is a load of old bollocks. Sport brings out the crassest kind of patriotism everywhere, and the reason why England failing is great -and this Ashes victory is utterly depressing- is because we've learnt to hate the gloating and Land of Hope and Glory gobshite that accompanies this sort of event. And we hate it because historically we've been fucked over and told we're shite and inferior by the colonial masters. And we're still patronised and treated as over sensitive sheep-shaggers by enough _sais_ for it to stick in our throats.  After all, there are plenty of loony right-wing goons in the English soccer supporting "fraternity", the kind of fuckwits I sat with when England played Spain in a friendly at Villa Park a few years back (and won 3-0- fuck, no!!!!!), arseholes who sang "No surrender to the IRA scum", who go in for all of this in a big way.

In other words, we're touchy about expressions of English nationalism because historically they've been accompanied by a shitting on us froma great height, or at best a patronising cooption of our cultural identity into the "mainstream". Therefore anything that brings English national pride down a peg or two is great news. But it doesn't mean anything more than that English patriotism is something we detest because it's been accompanied by a belittling of our own culture. Our nationalism is defensive, whereas England's has rarely had to be. That's the crucial difference.

But it's all the nationalist nonsense itself that needs scrutinising. There's nothing natural about nations, they're all the result of homogenising violence that imposes a fake "national culture" on a particular territory. Which is why historically marginalised and exploited bits of England (code for, amongst other things, "the North" in general) also have strong grievances against their historical rulers from London. 

I have nothing whatsoever against the "English people" today, whoever they are. They aren't personally responsible for historical violence against the Welsh. I loves Manchester, for example, and having lived out of the country for years I probably have more English friends that Welsh ones. So fucking what?

Just don't start telling me that being born in England is something to be prouder of than being born in Wales, or Chad, or Uzbekistan. So fuck off back to Gwent Prof Tanner, or should I call it Monmouthshire, for years claimed by the _sais_ in their invasive maps.

One final point, I was born in Neath and I think it's fucking lovely. I'd rather live there than Cowbridge, or Bath, or York, or just about anywhere else you can name. Port Talbot, on the other hand, is another matter!


----------



## SeniorSbagliato (Sep 15, 2005)

Tidy post


----------

