# US actor Robin Williams has died by suicide



## savoloysam (Aug 11, 2014)

Sad news if true


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2014)

Eh?  oh fuck.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

Not many online sources yet but I found this one..

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2014/08/11/robin-williams-dead-at-63/


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

They just mentioned it on the BBC Midnight news.
Well they said he had died.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 12, 2014)

Just on R4 news now that he's died (no other details).   weltweit sorry about the echo.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 12, 2014)

Holy crap!


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 12, 2014)

Been in rehab recently for alcoholism I think. 

RIP.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 12, 2014)

Well... fuck.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28749702

Described as an apparent suicide. Very sad, what a waste.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2014)

Oh no  

such a tragedy RIP Robin Williams


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 12, 2014)

(The guy who posted this ^^^^ tweet works for the Times and said everyone in the office had misheard it as "Robbie Williams" and went nuts for 60 seconds….. )


----------



## marty21 (Aug 12, 2014)

sad news


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

Oh shit!  
RIP


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 12, 2014)

Mork calling Orson. Come in Orson. RIP.


----------



## spirals (Aug 12, 2014)

Fuck


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28749702
> 
> Described as an apparent suicide. Very sad, what a waste.



Apparently he has been suffering major depression and has been in rehab. 

Money, fame it's all bollocks.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 12, 2014)

Shazbut


----------



## agricola (Aug 12, 2014)

Horrible news, RIP.


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 12, 2014)

RIP


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 12, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/aug/11/robin-williams-found-dead-suicide


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2014)

Very sad news.  

RIP


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)

the stuttering fuck



rip


----------



## free spirit (Aug 12, 2014)

Oh Captain my Captain..... please be upstanding on the nearest desk. 




RIP, loved a lot of your work, though Mrs Doubtfire was a little below par.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 12, 2014)

RIP


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

Hey who changed the thread title? We all know who Robin Williams is don't we? also suicide has not been confirmed as the cause yet!


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

Aw boo


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)

does it need to mention the suicide

robin williams being dead would suffice


----------



## coley (Aug 12, 2014)

Tony Hancock, Robin Williams, thanks for the laughs, RIP.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 12, 2014)

RIP


----------



## neonwilderness (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 12, 2014)

so shocking and sad  

RIP Robin


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

Such a shame we never got to see him play Susan Boyle.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 12, 2014)

Rip the star of Bicentennial man


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2014)

sad news if true. I loved Toys and outside of his comedy roles the one where he played an obsessive photo developer was spot on. I suppose its common knowledge to folks here, but people who make jokes out of everything and do the manic wisecracker are often hiding a massive well of despair.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 12, 2014)

Oh no! I quite liked him. He even made to that creepy photo developer likeable (in a peculiar fashion).

How very sad.


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

Fucking hell thats a shock RIP


----------



## Kidda (Aug 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> sad news if true. I loved Toys and outside of his comedy roles the one where he played an obsessive photo developer was spot on. I suppose its common knowledge to folks here, but people who make jokes out of everything and do the manic wisecracker are often hiding a massive well of despair.



One Hour Photo. 

Great film. 

Such sad news.


----------



## Humberto (Aug 12, 2014)

Fisher King was a great film.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> sad news if true. I loved Toys and outside of his comedy roles the one where he played an obsessive photo developer was spot on. I suppose its common knowledge to folks here, but people who make jokes out of everything and do the manic wisecracker are often hiding a massive well of despair.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Fisher King was a great film.



the fisher king was fucking epic


*shakes fist at sky*


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 12, 2014)

Loved Dead Poets Society, Good Will Hunting, even Mrs Doubtfire is alright as a kids film. One Hour Photo is creepy but also good. Who could forget Mork & Mindy. Not many accomplished actors could wipe the floor at the Comedy Store either. 

I knew he had depression, and his last tv series was cancelled too? How sad he should go this way.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


>


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Fisher King was a great film.



One of my favourites


----------



## 8ball (Aug 12, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Rip the star of Bicentennial man



Ok, no need to be bitchy.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Aug 12, 2014)

How sad


----------



## maya (Aug 12, 2014)

Really sad news... I loved him in 'Hook', saw it five times at the cinema as a kid- Massively underrated film.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)

the awakenings was also underrated..


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

My understanding was he had manic depression, which explained in part some of his more hyper or manic performances which I certainly enjoyed so much. I may be wrong - but if he did - it is a condition where suicides are more common than in normal people.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> My understanding was he had manic depression, which explained in part some of his more hyper or manic performances which I certainly enjoyed so much. I may be wrong - but if he did - it is a condition where suicides are more common than in normal people.




I've seen him in loads of interviews and he couldn't hold a straight face or do a sincere bit for long. There had to be joke or a laugh. The thing with liking to make other people laugh because it makes you feel good is that when there is no one and anyway you are all joked-out, then the blackness creeps in. I don't think this is a thing with all comedians but I know it is a common thing.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Gromit (Aug 12, 2014)

Huge legacy. Sad end to it.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...orcomedian-is-found-dead-aged-63-9662979.html


----------



## N_igma (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm gutted to hear this. Good Will Hunting is one of my favourites not to mention the films that I watched growing up as a kid. 

RIP Robin thanks for the laughs!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 12, 2014)

Jumanji has a place in my childhood, as does Hook.  Also can't forget his roles in Dead Poets and Goodwill Hunting. Talented bloke.  Sad news


----------



## Riklet (Aug 12, 2014)

Very sad. 

He really was a great actor, tho can't help it but sticks most in my mind as mrs Doubtfire, from watching it too many times when young haha. Great performances in plenty of other movies though. A real loss.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 12, 2014)

just remembered another one..What Dreams May Come: sort of a clunky film, but still a very touching performance


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 12, 2014)

He was like two great actors squished together into one bloke. His early stand up stuff was great as well. A unique talent. Rest easy mate.


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

Used to love Mork and Mindy back in the day,first time I came across him,a very funny stand up comedian as well


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

Love this film.......


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Hey who changed the thread title? We all know who Robin Williams is don't we? also suicide has not been confirmed as the cause yet!


They should change it again. Haven't these people got spellcheckerz?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)

tbf us actor is a little slight,,

its friggin mork ffs


----------



## teqniq (Aug 12, 2014)

Rip


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## gabi (Aug 12, 2014)

This has made me sad. He seemed a sweet man. And incredibly talented.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 12, 2014)

Very, very sad news. I adored Mork and Mindy when I was younger. Robin Williams was one of those actors who was always just there... a part of the fabric of film-life... he might not necessarily be starring in something or be in the news, but he'd always been one of those actors when I was growing up... idk, hard to explain.

Very sad.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Aug 12, 2014)

Poor bloke.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

RIP.
Laughed at Mork 
Cried at Garp.
Brilliant performer with a heavy heart and tormented soul you could see in every performance.
Such very sad news.


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 12, 2014)

Just woke up to LBC to hear this :-(


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 12, 2014)

Hated Mork, loved the Genie. Fuck it. Poor fucking guy :'(


----------



## Belushi (Aug 12, 2014)

Wow! That's very sad.  I know he'd had a long history of drug and drink abuse.


----------



## Glitter (Aug 12, 2014)

Gutted.


----------



## Saffy (Aug 12, 2014)

I've just counted up how many films as a family we love of his. 
We shall be having a movie night tonight with the kids and we're going to watch Jumanji, it's one of our favourites.


----------



## Manter (Aug 12, 2014)

So sad


----------



## existentialist (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm going to ask the mods if they'll change the thread title from "...committed suicide" to "died by suicide" - the former phrase dates from when it was a criminal offence...


----------



## gabi (Aug 12, 2014)

jesus. you're bringing the pedants corner into this thread?


----------



## Wookey (Aug 12, 2014)

I with you on the 'committed suicide'. Not appropriate any more and with good reason.

The non-legal term is usually 'killed themselves".

A very, very sad day.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 12, 2014)

Very sad - clearly he'd lived with terrible depression his whole life,  like so many comedians. It's also obvious he was very well loved by everyone in the industry and not everyone manages that.


----------



## blossie33 (Aug 12, 2014)

So sorry to hear this news this morning, very sad 
RIP Robin


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 12, 2014)

He should have just kept drinking.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Aug 12, 2014)

Very sad news


----------



## Guineveretoo (Aug 12, 2014)

I think the thread title should be "RIP Robin Williams" so the emphasis is on his loss and his life, not how he died.


----------



## gabi (Aug 12, 2014)

jesus. does it really matter what the title of the thread is??

urban.


----------



## killer b (Aug 12, 2014)

clearly it does matter, or people wouldn't have mentioned it.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> He should have just kept drinking.


 
I think he tried that.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 12, 2014)

Sad news. RIP.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Aug 12, 2014)

gabi said:


> jesus. does it really matter what the title of the thread is??
> 
> urban.


Yes, it matters to me, because the current thread title makes me feel uncomfortable, which is why I didn't post on it when I first heard the news about Robin Williams.


----------



## friedaweed (Aug 12, 2014)

He stopped drinking for quite a while didn't he? Anyway he's deed whichever way you put it but I thought him more a comedian than a US actor.


----------



## aqua (Aug 12, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I'm going to ask the mods if they'll change the thread title from "...committed suicide" to "died by suicide" - the former phrase dates from when it was a criminal offence...


sorry just to say, I'd never even thought about this before or where the phrase originates. I'm glad the title was changed or I would have done and also I'm glad this was pointed out.

I'm also very sad to hear about Robin Williams  I bloody adored Mork and Mindy


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm stunned.  

Hook, Dead Poets, Good Will Hunting among my favourite films.


----------



## Shirl (Aug 12, 2014)

aqua said:


> sorry just to say, I'd never even thought about this before or where the phrase originates. I'm glad the title was changed or I would have done and also I'm glad this was pointed out.
> 
> I'm also very sad to hear about Robin Williams  I bloody adored Mork and Mindy


Mork and Mindy was one of my all time favourites too.

Sad to see him gone


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Aug 12, 2014)

Robin Williams was an 'original' and we don't get many of those.  An artist of comedy.  RIP Robin.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 12, 2014)

gabi said:


> jesus. you're bringing the pedants corner into this thread?


For anyone who has been affected by suicide this stuff isn't pedantry.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 12, 2014)

gabi said:


> jesus. does it really matter what the title of the thread is??
> 
> urban.


Yes. Not everyone necessarily shares your robustness of outlook.


----------



## Leafster (Aug 12, 2014)

Very sad news.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 12, 2014)

His most recent attempt at a tv series - 'The Crazy Ones' - was truly horrible.


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 12, 2014)

I've read somewhere this morning that he hid his depression "in plain sight" and that rang very true for me. It's a soppy film, but I am precisely the age that Dead Poet's Society had a very powerful impression on me. He was a bloody funny man. RIP.


----------



## 8den (Aug 12, 2014)

Perry said:
			
		

> It begins with the king as a boy, having to spend the night alone in the forest to prove his courage so he can become king. Now while he is spending the night alone he's visited by a sacred vision. Out of the fire appears the Holy Grail, symbol of God's divine grace. And a voice said to the boy, "You shall be keeper of the grail so that it may heal the hearts of men." But the boy was blinded by greater visions of a life filled with power and glory and beauty. And in this state of radical amazement he felt for a brief moment not like a boy, but invincible, like God, so he reached into the fire to take the grail, and the grail vanished, leaving him with his hand in the fire to be terribly wounded. Now as this boy grew older, his wound grew deeper. Until one day, life for him lost its reason. He had no faith in any man, not even himself. He couldn't love or feel loved. He was sick with experience. He began to die. One day a fool wandered into the castle and found the king alone. And being a fool, he was simple minded, he didn't see a king. He only saw a man alone and in pain. And he asked the king, "What ails you friend?" The king replied, "I'm thirsty. I need some water to cool my throat". So the fool took a cup from beside his bed, filled it with water and handed it to the king. As the king began to drink, he realized his wound was healed. He looked in his hands and there was the holy grail, that which he sought all of his life. And he turned to the fool and said with amazement, "How can you find that which my brightest and bravest could not?" And the fool replied, "I don't know. I only knew that you were thirsty."



The Fisher King is my all time favourite film.


----------



## 8den (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

Guineveretoo said:


> I think the thread title should be "RIP Robin Williams" so the emphasis is on his loss and his life, not how he died.


Nah, RIP ain't right either. He's not resting. He's dead.
All you need is '...has died'.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 12, 2014)

Genie is my favourite 

I do think the title just needs to be 'Robin Williams RIP' tbh. It's horribly jarring now.


----------



## The Octagon (Aug 12, 2014)

> Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor...I am Pagliacci.
> 
> Good Joke, everybody laugh. Curtains close.


 


RIP


----------



## Cheesypoof (Aug 12, 2014)

Wonderfully energetic, warm and sympathetic actor. RIP


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

Very saddened by this 
Poor man must have been in so much pain 
Suicide is a devastating death to deal with. ..


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Tankus (Aug 12, 2014)

Poor daughter .


----------



## Cheesypoof (Aug 12, 2014)

Tankus said:


> Poor daughter .



Last night i googled to see whether he had kids....he has three. They must only be in their late 20s and 30's. No one wants to lose a parent this way....tragic.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

I don't have a problem with "committed suicide" which I prefer to "died by suicide". Died implies a natural end which suicide is not. Just RIP might be ok but we now know he killed himself, and killing yourself is not a natural end. On reflection I would have preferred "Robin Williams killed himself, RIP"


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 12, 2014)

Another one that shows that depression isn't just being a bit sad, it's your brain chemistry being wrong. Such a wonderful life but nothing he could do about it


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Nah, RIP ain't right either. He's not resting. He's dead.
> All you need is '...has died'.


 Yes, yes and yes. When deceased are not obviously Catholic/believers in 'afterlife' GBNF, or the like, would seem more respectful than the church of rome's epitaph.

Apols for de-rail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

rip 

but thank you for the laughter


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

Not that it matters now that he has died but he was episcopalian.
Which he joked about saying....it was
"Catholic Lite—same rituals, half the guilt".


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Yes, yes and yes. When deceased are not obviously Catholic/believers in 'afterlife' GBNF, or the like, would seem more respectful than the church of rome's epitaph.
> 
> Apols for de-rail.


What does GBNF mean?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> What does GBNS mean?



it means you haven't read the post.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 12, 2014)

One of those "don't know what you've got" moments, sadly. Always knew he had great talent to use and have enjoyed a lot of his work, but equally didn't care for some of his other stuff. But I've been genuinely saddened by this, and was clearly more affected by his good stuff than I realised. Will be missed 


Orang Utan said:


> What does GBNS mean?


Gone but not forgotten, apparently.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

They played a clip from some film premier in the States and had Mel Gibson dishing out his response over Williams death.
Good catholic that he is he couldn't say God bless him or rest in peace he had to say, ''poor man, God help him''!


----------



## Poi E (Aug 12, 2014)

Looking at his list of films he was a hard worker.


----------



## Poi E (Aug 12, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> They played a clip from some film premier in the States and had Mel Gibson dishing out his response over Williams death.
> Good catholic that he is he couldn't say God bless him or rest in peace he had to say, ''poor man, God help him''!



That fucking cunt. He of all people should know about alcohol problems.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 12, 2014)

Shazbat.


----------



## 8den (Aug 12, 2014)

The Fisher King and Patch Adams are both trending on twitter. His filmic/comedic career was both wonderful and terrible.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 12, 2014)

Gone but not forgotten, oops miles too late

Sleep well Mr Williams.

Was just trying to list the films he was in that I've loved, its huge , a very sad day


----------



## Ceej (Aug 12, 2014)

Such sad news. Good bloke all round - one of Christopher Reeves best friends and supported him and his family enormously after his accident, as well as lobbying for more research into spinal injury in the US. 

(fwiw, I prefer 'took his/her own life' rather than 'committed suicide'. Acknowledges the choice made and level of control. And no, it isn't pedantry. Language used can change perception over time - Downs syndrome, mental health, mixed race, people with disabilities for example)


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 12, 2014)

Ceej said:


> Such sad news. Good bloke all round - one of Christopher Reeves best friends and supported him and his family enormously after his accident, as well as lobbying for more research into spinal injury in the US.


I hadn't known that. Hopefully without being gossipy, it can be interesting to learn about people's lives and concerns outside of the spotlight. I can honestly say I would not have put Christopher Reeve and Robin Williams together, based solely on their public persona.


----------



## Ungrateful (Aug 12, 2014)

I can't be hypocritical, I hated many of his films. Regrettably I said so only recently on these boards, so I feel a right prick. But the reason I hated them was because I thought they showed a tragic waste of enormous talent. I loved the first few series of _Mork and Mindy_ and the early interviews/stand-up - he had a genuinely subversive, popular and unpredictable humour, that turned (perhaps through drink and drugs) into maudlin, liberal sentimentalism. And it doesn't really matter if he had only made shit films or no films at all or the greatest cinema ever - his death (like any death) is a tragedy. The fact he managed to connect with so many people gives the sorrow of his death added impact.


----------



## The Octagon (Aug 12, 2014)

Lord Camomile said:


> I hadn't known that. Hopefully without being gossipy, it can be interesting to learn about people's lives and concerns outside of the spotlight. I can honestly say I would not have put Christopher Reeve and Robin Williams together, based solely on their public persona.


 
They were at Juilliard together - http://www.businessinsider.com/robin-williams-made-christopher-reeve-laugh-after-paralysis-2014-8


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

The World According To Garp was one of my favourite films as a young adult. A perfect vehicle for his talents. (John Lithgow also delivers a career best).

Think I'm gonna download The World's Greatest Dad tonight. Have been meaning to watch it for a while and it's kinda in keeping with his death.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 12, 2014)

Ungrateful said:


> I can't be hypocritical, I hated many of his films. Regrettably I said so only recently on these boards, so I feel a right prick. But the reason I hated them was because I thought they showed a tragic waste of enormous talent. I loved the first few series of _Mork and Mindy_ and the early interviews/stand-up - he had a genuinely subversive, popular and unpredictable humour, that turned (perhaps through drink and drugs) into maudlin, liberal sentimentalism. And it doesn't really matter if he had only made shit films or no films at all or the greatest cinema ever - his death (like any death) is a tragedy. The fact he managed to connect with so many people gives the sorrow of his death added impact.


Well said. 





Ungrateful said:


> I can't be hypocritical, I hated many of his films. Regrettably I said so only recently on these boards, so I feel a right prick.


I know what you mean, but when someone dies I don't think you rewrite your opinions of them, just be respectful and try to celebrate the stuff you did like.


The Octagon said:


> They were at Juilliard together - http://www.businessinsider.com/robin-williams-made-christopher-reeve-laugh-after-paralysis-2014-8


Ah, fair enough; a nice story too.


----------



## 8den (Aug 12, 2014)

very sweet

http://www.buzzfeed.com/krystieyandoli/robin-williams-fans-spontaneously-turned-the-good-will-hunti


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

8den said:


> very sweet
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/krystieyandoli/robin-williams-fans-spontaneously-turned-the-good-will-hunti


I was going to post the park bench scene as one of my favourite pieces of his work. As above along with The World According to Garp, Good Will Hunting are my top two Robin Williams films. Love the impromptu memorial in the park.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Aug 12, 2014)

This is very sad.

Mork and Mindy is one of the first things I ever found really funny, and really takes me back to an innocent childhood. I also love Dead Poets Society, Awakenings, and even Jumanji (my kids love watching this still, and I as I was watching the news I felt really sad explaining who it was that had died).

The last thing I remember him in is a series of adverts for Nintendo. He'd named his daughter after Zelda...and they were both in the advert and he seemed like such a funny, cool, and loving father to her (and his opther children) 

RIP Mork!


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2014)

mwgdrwg said:


> The last thing I remember him in is a series of adverts for Nintendo.


 
Kiddie cocaine!


----------



## bmd (Aug 12, 2014)

So sad that he took his own life. I'm not sure whether someone in his state of mind is making an informed choice. I wonder if he would still have chosen this path if he hadn't been feeling depressed. 

RIP Robin Williams, you will be missed.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 12, 2014)

RIP Robin Williams.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 12, 2014)

bmd said:


> So sad that he took his own life. I'm not sure whether someone in his state of mind is making an informed choice. I wonder if he would still have chosen this path if he hadn't been feeling depressed.


 
Well, no, he wouldn't have.

But then sometimes as a depressive I think the strange thing isn't that depressives sometimes take their life, but that everyone else (including depressives a lot of the time) doesn't.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

I believe he was Bi-polar wasn't he? The depths of which most people thankfully will never have to see into. Those that have will know there is no reasoning when you are at either end of the spectrum


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> I believe he was Bi-polar wasn't he? The depths of which most people thankfully will never have to see into. Those that have will know there is no reasoning when you are at either end of the spectrum



Unfortunately it is usually the demon of bi polarity that gives the creativity


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 12, 2014)

Fisher King, Dead Poets Society & Awakenings. These were my favourite RW films. I also loved the first few seasons of Mork & Mindy. Farewell Robin and thanks for the laughter.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> I believe he was Bi-polar wasn't he? The depths of which most people thankfully will never have to see into. Those that have will know there is no reasoning when you are at either end of the spectrum





Sprocket. said:


> Unfortunately it is usually the demon of bi polarity that gives the creativity



Quite a few people think, myself included, that he had bipolar but he never confirmed it as far as I can tell and the obituaries I have seen so far are mainly focussing on drink drugs and depression.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

He always struck me as being extremely sensitive and brilliant ... 

Some of his off screen quotes ... 

*1. On maintaining your individuality:*

 "You’re only given a little spark of madness. You mustn’t lose it."

*2. Words of wisdom for the confrontational:*

"Never fight with an ugly person, they’ve got nothing to lose."

*3. On legalising marijuana:*

"Do you think God gets stoned? I think so… look at the platypus."

4. On same-sex marriage
"You could talk about same-sex marriage, but people who have been married say ‘It’s the same sex all the time."

*5. On believing in yourself:*

"No matter what people tell you, words and ideas can change this world."

*6. What the real Robin Williams is like:*

"Sad? No, I'm quiet. When people see me that way, they think something's wrong. No. 'You're on something.' No. I'm just recharging. In down times I do things like go for a long bike ride or run. The other thing I'm doing in that quiet time is just observing."

*7. On divorce:*

"Ah, yes, divorce … from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man’s genitals through his wallet."

*8. On sticking with your guns:*

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you."

*9. On divorce (again):*

 "Divorce is expensive. I used to joke they were going to call it 'all the money,' but they changed it to 'alimony.' It's ripping your heart out through your wallet."

*10. On death:*

"Death is nature’s way of saying, ‘your table is ready.’"




- See more at: http://m.independent.ie/style/celeb...een-quotes-30501952.html#sthash.YdEKhCTt.dpuf


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> They played a clip from some film premier in the States and had Mel Gibson dishing out his response over Williams death.
> Good catholic that he is he couldn't say God bless him or rest in peace he had to say, ''poor man, God help him''!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

kittyP said:


>


when it's mel gibson's turn i don't think people will be so sad here as they have been for robin williams.

altho if gibson had died before making the passion of the christ i expect he'd have received a decent urban send-off.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> when it's mel gibson's turn i don't think people will be so sad here as they have been for robin williams.



I am actually surprised that so many people loved him/his work.
I often got the feeling that lots of people found him annoying. 
It's nice to see so much love despite the horrible circumstances.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

kittyP said:


> I am actually surprised that so many people loved him/his work.
> I often got the feeling that lots of people found him annoying.
> It's nice to see so much love despite the horrible circumstances.


i always got the impression that it would be fun to spend time with robin williams. i do not have the same impression from mel gibson.


----------



## D'wards (Aug 12, 2014)

Someone put a joke up on Facebook about it, which annoyed me greatly.

I'm all for a bit of of levity, but I find it very distasteful in situations like this.

I must admit that I would not have described myself as a particular fan, and I think films like Patch Adams devalued his brand a little. But Mork and Mindy was superb, as was Good Will Hunting, and if Dead Poets Society is viewed with an uncynical mind its a great film.


----------



## mog1976 (Aug 12, 2014)

A man rings up a chat show. He says hes depressed and feels alone. The chat show host says to do somthing.he says go see coco the clown. He cheers everyone up.
The man says - i am coco the clown


----------



## trashpony (Aug 12, 2014)

He was a brilliant man who seemed eminently likeable. How very tragic


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

trashpony said:


> He was a brilliant man who seemed eminently likeable. How very tragic


he's up there with the comic greats, including tony hancock - who himself committed suicide - kenneth williams, charles hawtrey, frankie howerd, john le mesurier, sid james, and so on.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 12, 2014)

I was speaking to a mate at work who is in his 20s, he said his fave Williams film was Jumanji as he saw it as a kid - he had never heard of Good Morning Vietnam which I saw in my 20s


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

Some tool on another forum bleating on about how he has wasted his talent and money etc etc. I am never short of amazement to the shallowness of some people's understanding of other people. Especially somebody who despite his great talent was underneath clearly a very vulnerable individual.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Some tool on another forum bleating on about how he has wasted his talent and money etc etc. I am never short of amazement to the shallowness of some people's understanding of other people. Especially somebody who despite his great talent was underneath clearly a very vulnerable individual.


what's the point of having talent and money if you can't waste them if you want to?

a lot of comedians never do anything as funny as 'mork and mindy': anything after that was icing on the cake as far as i'm concerned.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

The first time I saw Robin Williams was in a cameo as Mork in Happy Days, seemed ages before Mork and Mindy turned up on our screens.
How brilliant was the pairing of Williams with Jonathan Winters in the later series?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 12, 2014)

Lord Camomile said:


> I hadn't known that. Hopefully without being gossipy, it can be interesting to learn about people's lives and concerns outside of the spotlight. I can honestly say I would not have put Christopher Reeve and Robin Williams together, based solely on their public persona.



The two were classmates at Julliard and became friends there.  Both talented people who left too soon.


----------



## 03gills (Aug 12, 2014)

Fucking hell, this is too much. First Rik Mayall, now this. 

RIP mate. x


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2014)

Nice pic at top of Torygraph home page...







....


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Nice pic at top of Torygraph home page...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Creepy looking monkey on his shoulder / back...


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 12, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> The first time I saw Robin Williams was in a cameo as Mork in Happy Days, seemed ages before Mork and Mindy turned up on our screens.


In two episodes of 'Happy Days' a star was born before our eyes.

I liked his smile.


----------



## D'wards (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what's the point of having talent and money if you can't waste them if you want to?


 There's a famous quote, I think atributed to many people - "I spent half my money on wine, women and song - the rest I just wasted"


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

D'wards said:


> There's a famous quote, I think atributed to many people - "I spent half my money on wine, women and song - the rest I just wasted"


george best i think you'll find


----------



## Ceej (Aug 12, 2014)

My faves were Insomnia and One Hour Photo - I could see him becoming an older, serious character actor. Loved Mork and Mindy, but he was in a few dogs too. Struggled with addictions and depression, but he was witty, intelligent and insightful and just genuinely seemed a good skin. Sad.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 12, 2014)

A great loss. A talented man.  

Watch 'Robin Williams at the Met'. Screamingly funny. His gag about the man holding his wife's hand whilst she is in labour ,and saying 'I know what you are going through' 'Not unless you are shitting a bowling ball'.


----------



## D'wards (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> george best i think you'll find


 That's what I initially thought, but upon googling it you get; WC Fields, Ronnie Hawkins, George Raft. And as George Best's other famous quote is "Look Terry, I like screwing" apropos of nothing, i wasn't sure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

D'wards said:


> That's what I initially thought, but upon googling it you get; WC Fields, Ronnie Hawkins, George Raft. And as George Best's other famous quote is "Look Terry, I like screwing" apropos of nothing, i wasn't sure.


great minds think alike


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> george best i think you'll find



More like George Burns.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> More like George Burns.


more like robbie burns


----------



## D'wards (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> more like robbie burns


 More like Robbie Williams


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

D'wards said:


> More like Robbie Williams


----------



## AverageJoe (Aug 12, 2014)

I havent read the whole thread, so excuse me if this has been repeated, but this quote from "watchmen" (of all things) seems to sum it up for me.

Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor...I am Pagliacci.”

Also the BFI tribute - "Genie. You are free"


----------



## Ld222 (Aug 12, 2014)

I wonder how many civilian where killed by the troops he entertained.

This was William’s fourth tour in the area of operations. Among all the top celebrities paraded in the American media today, it’s difficult to find anyone who has committed more energy and time to the troops than the man known as Mrs. Doubtfire.

Guffey, for one, was happy to see the visitors give soldiers “the sense that someone back home cares enough to come out there.”

“We dedicate between 7 to 8 million dollars on entertainment,” said John Hanson, USO senior vice president of marketing and communication.






An old pro of visiting the troops, Robin Williams is on his fourth full USO tour.


http://www.wnd.com/2007/12/45223/


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 12, 2014)

Ungrateful said:


> I can't be hypocritical, I hated many of his films. Regrettably I said so only recently on these boards, so I feel a right prick. But the reason I hated them was because I thought they showed a tragic waste of enormous talent. I loved the first few series of _Mork and Mindy_ and the early interviews/stand-up - he had a genuinely subversive, popular and unpredictable humour, that turned (perhaps through drink and drugs) into maudlin, liberal sentimentalism. And it doesn't really matter if he had only made shit films or no films at all or the greatest cinema ever - his death (like any death) is a tragedy. The fact he managed to connect with so many people gives the sorrow of his death added impact.



A lot of his films were bloody awful, there were some gems though and even the awful films had excellent moments.

His standup and unplanned routines were top notch, watch his performance on "Inside the Actors Studio"



Ld222 said:


> I wonder how many civilian where killed by the troops he entertained.



Get tae feck


----------



## D'wards (Aug 12, 2014)

Ld222 said:


> I wonder how many civilian where killed by the troops he entertained.


 
We need the "awkward gritted teeth" smiley like on Whatapp


----------



## caleb (Aug 12, 2014)

From 'Good Will Hunting', it seems sorta apt.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> The World According To Garp was one of my favourite films as a young adult. A perfect vehicle for his talents. (John Lithgow also delivers a career best).
> 
> Think I'm gonna download The World's Greatest Dad tonight. Have been meaning to watch it for a while and it's kinda in keeping with his death.


Loved Garp as a teen, been meaning to watch it again for years. 
Awakenings is also good.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

D'wards said:


> There's a famous quote, I think atributed to many people - "I spent half my money on wine, women and song - the rest I just wasted"


Didn't he also say that cocaine was god's way of telling you you have too much money?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Some tool on another forum bleating on about how he has wasted his talent and money etc etc. I am never short of amazement to the shallowness of some people's understanding of other people. Especially somebody who despite his great talent was underneath clearly a very vulnerable individual.


102 film and tv appearances is hardly a wasted talent.
They said that of Peter Cook too.


----------



## laptop (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> They said that of Peter Cook too.



It's some kind of compulsory "he did drugs so..." message, isn't it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

laptop said:


> It's some kind of compulsory "he did drugs so..." message, isn't it?


Well, with Cook, I think it was the booze but also cos he didn't do much in his final years. But he didn't have to as he had achieved so much already. It seems that the more talented you are the more you are expected to keep it up forever, like you owe it to everyone. Resting on one's laurels is seen as wasting your gifts.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

Folks will use drink, drugs, gambling whatever they need to get them through, it's a scary, shit world for a lot of people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Folks will use drink, drugs, gambling whatever they need to get them through, it's a scary, shit world for a lot of people.


and it's a shit world for people not using the scary drugs


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 12, 2014)

He was excellent in Baron Munchausen, too. Himself and Oliver Reed stole that movie.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 12, 2014)

Lord Camomile said:


> I hadn't known that. Hopefully without being gossipy, it can be interesting to learn about people's lives and concerns outside of the spotlight. I can honestly say I would not have put Christopher Reeve and Robin Williams together, based solely on their public persona.



Read Christopher Reeve's autobiog on holiday one year when I'd run out of books, and they were proper mates - RW did a lot of fundraising for spinal injuries too. CR always said his life was only bearable after the accident because he was rich.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and it's a shit world for people not using the scary drugs



True and too much to bear for many.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> True and too much to bear for many.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 12, 2014)

...and it turns out that Alan Brazil IS as stupid as he sounds....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...alan-brazil-talksport-comments_n_5670941.html


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

krtek a houby said:


> He was excellent in Baron Munchausen, too. Himself and Oliver Reed stole that movie.



Who was? Sorry


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

Ceej said:


> ...and it turns out that Alan Brazil IS as stupid as he sounds....
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...alan-brazil-talksport-comments_n_5670941.html



You can be annoyed with someone for killing themselves and what it leaves behind (people often are) but A. That is up to the people close to the person and B. That's got nowt to do with not having sympathy


----------



## Ceej (Aug 12, 2014)

kittyP said:


> You can be annoyed with someone for killing themselves and what it leaves behind (people often are) but A. That is up to the people close to the person and B. That's got nowt to do with not having sympathy



A little bit of compassion for the person in question wouldn't hurt, would it? Woeful ignorance of mental heath issues too -  many suicidal people genuinely think they'll be doing their loved ones a favour by checking out. Our point of reason isn't theirs.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2014)

This sad news even sees Simon Jenkins talking some sense...



> Physical illness is something the medical profession understands. It knows what to do when the human body malfunctions and what not to do. Mental illness, if illness is the right word, seems lost in some dark age. Otherwise healthy people with every reason to be happy are found wrestling with private demons. Therapists wander the scene like surgeons on a medieval battlefield, at a loss for what to do....
> 
> ....All illness is a great leveller, but none levels like mental illness. It remains the poor relation of medicine. Research is paltry. Therapies are halfhearted. Drugs are primitive. But addictive and depressive illness seems to probe deep into the relations between individuals and those around them. It is the crack in the window that can seem beyond mending. The sadness of the clown goes beyond irony. It is one of the great mysteries of life.


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

A critical and commercial flop when it was released.....kind of grown on me over the years


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

Ceej said:


> A little bit of compassion for the person in question wouldn't hurt, would it? Woeful ignorance of mental heath issues too -  many suicidal people genuinely think they'll be doing their loved ones a favour by checking out. Our point of reason isn't theirs.



Aye


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> The World According To Garp was one of my favourite films as a young adult. A perfect vehicle for his talents. (John Lithgow also delivers a career best).


A real gem and the only John Irving book imo that was ever successfully adapted for screen, both cast-wise and tone,RW brought 'Garp' brilliantly to life.....


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 12, 2014)

I have one suggestion.  If you know people prone to thoughts of suicide, please check on them.  Sometimes a suicide in the news can cause people to copycat.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

Alan Brazil's comments reek of him doing what he gets paid to do which is to wind up radio listeners and get Talkshite as much attention as possible.


----------



## starfish (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Didn't he also say that cocaine was god's way of telling you you have too much money?


He did fantastic standup up show in the late 80s or early 90s where that was one of his jokes. The whole routine was one of the funniest things i had or ever have heard. I havent seen it in about 20 years but remembering parts of it always make me giggle. Would love to see it again.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

A few more quotes...

“A woman would never make a nuclear bomb. They would never make a weapon that kills, no, no. They’d make a weapon that makes you feel bad for a while.”

“Everyone has these two visions when they hold their child for the first time. The first is your child as an adult saying “I want to thank the Nobel Committee for this award.” The other is “You want fries with that?”.”

Accepting Good Will Hunting Oscar : “Most of all, I want to thank my father, up there, the man who when I said I wanted to be an actor, he said, “Wonderful. Just have a back-up profession like welding.”

"What's right is what's left if you do everything else wrong"

"I used to think the worst thing in life is to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone"

"The only weapon we have is comedy"


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

Another lesser known RW gem I liked........


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 12, 2014)

Bloody hell! Of all the segments of Robin Williams Channel 4 news could have played in their closing credits they choose one that contained the line 'Gotta get a rope and hang me'


----------



## laptop (Aug 12, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Bloody hell! Of all the segments of Robin Williams Channel 4 news could have played in their closing credits they choose one that contained the line 'Gotta get a rope and hang me'



'Strewth. Someone's in for a bollocking for that.

But... were Robbie producing... what would he have done?


----------



## MrSki (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Ceej (Aug 12, 2014)

Jumanji on Sky1 now...followed by Awakenings...


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

Robin Williams and the link between comedy and depression
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28753326


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

Robin Williams death: Police confirm suicide
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28765693

So now I understand what this "asphyxia" meant, he hung himself.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Robin Williams death: Police confirm suicide
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28765693
> 
> So now I understand what this "asphyxia" meant, he hung himself.


What else could it have been?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> What else could it have been?


bag on head with pills / alcohol

gassed

honestly, have you no imagination?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 12, 2014)

Lord Camomile said:


> I hadn't known that. Hopefully without being gossipy, it can be interesting to learn about people's lives and concerns outside of the spotlight. I can honestly say I would not have put Christopher Reeve and Robin Williams together, based solely on their public persona.


Apparently when Reeve was due for his op he put on surgical scrubs and burst into the room talking in a russian accent saying it was time for the rectal exam.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## elbows (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Well, with Cook, I think it was the booze but also cos he didn't do much in his final years. But he didn't have to as he had achieved so much already. It seems that the more talented you are the more you are expected to keep it up forever, like you owe it to everyone. Resting on one's laurels is seen as wasting your gifts.



Yeah, watched a lot of documentaries about dead creative types and they all tend to swing towards this lazy narrative in the end, even if the person died at a ripe old age in relative contentment with a large body of work.

Cook even had a last burst not that long before he met his end. But they could easily compare his wilderness years with the hollywood success of Dudley Moore and make a whole bunch more dubious pronouncements about the 'waste'.


----------



## elbows (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> What else could it have been?



Wank related accident


----------



## abe11825 (Aug 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Some of his off screen quotes ...
> *6. What the real Robin Williams is like:*
> 
> "Sad? No, I'm quiet. When people see me that way, they think something's wrong. No. 'You're on something.' No. I'm just recharging. In down times I do things like go for a long bike ride or run. The other thing I'm doing in that quiet time is just observing."
> ...



One of the gossip television channels' anchors said that he was often quiet and seemed very shy in a way, when he wasn't performing. He just minded his own business and wasn't in people's faces. 



bubblesmcgrath said:


> Creepy looking monkey on his shoulder / back...



Nah, that's just his body hair combed to look like a monkey 

Sad news to hear, for sure. Pity he left the world so young, but when one is in the throes of depression, the only way out is to end it. 

Re: asphyxia - My mum was talking to a few people last night who brought up how he died. She tried making light of it and said he must have been trying that choking game all the kids are doing these days... apparently it's all the rage to choke yourself until you pass out. Maybe he didn't realize his strength?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 12, 2014)

File this under "you can't pay me enough to be famous":



> ABC News stirs social media outrage with 'aerials of Robin Williams' home'
> 
> Immediately after the shocking death by apparent suicide of Robin Williams, his family released a statement in which they asked for "privacy as they grieve during this very difficult time."
> 
> Following this was a red banner "Watch Live:  Aerials of Robin Williams Home."



http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=881832


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> Wank related accident



AKA the Hutchinson position


----------



## abe11825 (Aug 12, 2014)

Just found this... seconds after posting:

Sheriff Reveals New Details of Robin Williams Suicide



> Robin Williams hanged himself with a belt after his wife had gone to sleep Sunday night.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Williams died as a result of death by asphyxia, said Boyd. The actor was partially clothed and suspended from a belt that was wedged between a closet door and the door frame. The assistant told officials he was cold to the touch and rigor mortis had begun to set in. The iconic comedian was pronounced dead at 12:02 p.m. Monday.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> File this under "you can't pay me enough to be famous":
> 
> 
> 
> http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=881832



Good lord these fucking news whores get on my tits


----------



## existentialist (Aug 12, 2014)

abe11825 said:


> Just found this... seconds after posting:
> 
> Sheriff Reveals New Details of Robin Williams Suicide


It's unlikely that quite such a detailed account (particularly in regard to the means) would have appeared in the UK press.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 12, 2014)

existentialist said:


> It's unlikely that quite such a detailed account (particularly in regard to the means) would have appeared in the UK press.



Wait a few days and some autopsy photos will pop up online.....


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

abe11825 said:


> Just found this... seconds after posting:
> 
> Sheriff Reveals New Details of Robin Williams Suicide



That paints an awful image, especially from somebody who you're used to seeing at their best.

I met an ex work colleague whilst out drinking the other night. She started telling me how last year she came home to find her own mother hanging from a rope in her hallway. She had taken her life after battling depression for years.

In my mind scenes like that don't bear thinking about and I can't imagine how it must feel to find somebody like that


----------



## 8den (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Good lord these fucking news whores get on my tits



Oh thats why I stopped working in 24hr news. 



> I met an ex work colleague whilst out drinking the other night. She started telling me how last year she came home to find her own mother hanging from a rope in her hallway. She had taken her life after battling depression for years.



My uncle hung himself about 15 years ago. Some poor 20 year old farm worker found him hanging from a tree, and tried to resuscitate him. Incredibly this was the 2nd suicide the poor guy witnesses some guy tried to disembowel himself and then lay in the road hoping to be run over, and this kid came across him.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 12, 2014)

Marc Maron (of WTF podcast) has rebroadcast an interview he did with Williams in 2010 (just over an hour long)

An interesting listen, and shows a far less manic side to Williams than many of us might be familiar with. The last 10 minutes is pretty hard going in light of his death, though


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

8den said:


> Oh thats why I stopped working in 24hr news.
> My uncle hung himself about 15 years ago. Some poor 20 year old farm worker found him hanging from a tree, and tried to resuscitate him. Incredibly this was the 2nd suicide the poor guy witnesses some guy tried to disembowel himself and then lay in the road hoping to be run over, and this kid came across him.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

I would never argue suicide is selfish but it takes a toll on the survivors, on family and friends. I know in various cases I have wondered what if anything I could have done to prevent someone I knew from ending their lives. But I am also aware of just how determined and organised people can be to end their lives when they have become suicidal.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 12, 2014)

Watching Mrs Doubtfire again...it's years since I saw it....I'm laughing and crying too...

Can't quite believe that this funny, smiling man is gone


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I would never argue suicide is selfish but it takes a toll on the survivors, on family and friends. I know in various cases I have wondered what if anything I could have done to prevent someone I knew from ending their lives. But I am also aware of just how determined and organised people can be to end their lives when they have become suicidal.


Sometimes people just want to end their lives and it is a 'rational' decision in as far such a thing can be rational.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Sometimes people just want to end their lives and it is a 'rational' decision in as far such a thing can be rational.


the world would be a better place if people were able to decide when to die without facing opprobrium instead of so many people lingering on in agony in lives they probably only continue through force of habit and fear


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Sometimes people just want to end their lives and it is a 'rational' decision in as far such a thing can be rational.


Personally I like the statement: "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

I think most suicidal people are not behaving rationally, not to say that it does not seem rational to them at the time because it does, but whatever the cause, the cause can be fixed rather than having to end it all right then. Obviously there are exceptions.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the world would be a better place if people were able to decide when to die without facing opprobrium instead of so many people lingering on in agony in lives they probably only continue through force of habit and fear


What about if those lives could be improved enough to make them worthwhile, with a little help?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the world would be a better place if people were able to decide when to die without facing opprobrium instead of so many people lingering on in agony in lives they probably only continue through force of habit and fear


Yes, the sole reason many people decide not to end it all is not because they decide they want to live after all, but because they don't want to cause their loved ones pain.


----------



## maya (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> But I am also aware of just how determined and organised people can be to end their lives when they have become suicidal.


IIRC in the majority of cases the suicidal person behave completely like normal beforehand, so others- even close friends and family- can't see anything out of the ordinary, there's no signs that there's anything wrong. That's what's so incredibly scary, and also so incredibly sad.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

maya said:


> IIRC in the majority of cases the suicidal person behave completely like normal beforehand, so others- even close friends and family- can't see anything out of the ordinary, there's no signs that there's anything wrong. That's what's so incredibly scary, and also so incredibly sad.


Yes, that has been my experience, and I agree, it is very sad.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I would never argue suicide is selfish but it takes a toll on the survivors, on family and friends. I know in various cases I have wondered what if anything I could have done to prevent someone I knew from ending their lives. But I am also aware of just how determined and organised people can be to end their lives when they have become suicidal.



I don't know, I think it's often sort of an "accident" in many cases, tbh. It happens in a moment of extremely impaired judgement, when one experiences emotional anguish so powerful it drowns out reason and all other emotions and thoughts which would ordinarily prevent one from taking such a drastic measure. For others I think it can be an obsessive, intrusive thought or impulse which one day just gains complete control of a person.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Personally I like the statement: "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"
> 
> I think most suicidal people are not behaving rationally, not to say that it does not seem rational to them at the time because it does, *but whatever the cause, the cause can be fixed* rather than having to end it all right then. Obviously there are exceptions.



I am very doubtful of the bit in bold for more than just some exceptional cases.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/...leftist-attitude/?onswipe_redirect=no&oswrr=1

I know it's Rush Limbaugh so what do you really expect but ugh! 
Nasty vile excuse for a man.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 12, 2014)

maya said:


> IIRC in the majority of cases the suicidal person behave completely like normal beforehand, so others- even close friends and family- can't see anything out of the ordinary, there's no signs that there's anything wrong. That's what's so incredibly scary, and also so incredibly sad.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

Miss Caphat said:


> I don't know, I think it's often sort of an "accident" in many cases, tbh. It happens in a moment of extremely impaired judgement, when one experiences emotional anguish so powerful it drowns out reason and all other emotions and thoughts which would ordinarily prevent one from taking such a drastic measure. For others I think it can be an obsessive, intrusive thought or impulse which one day just gains complete control of a person.



You may well be right - but I have come across some who were suicidal through mental illness and who planned their suicides in some detail. Some made their plans and then were happy that they had their "out" if it was needed and then carried on with their lives, but others actually did the deed seemingly with no warning to others.


----------



## maya (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Yes, that has been my experience, and I agree, it is very sad.


I know. I know of one exception though. Back in my early twenties when I lived in some pretty cramped shared housing (9 rooms/people on one floor, shared kitchen/toilet/shower), one of our neighbours ('A') committed double suicide together with his best friend ('B'), just out of the blue. Got home late at night one day and met by an ambulance outside and when I got up the stairs, police in the hall and in their room, the door was open and I saw them covered by a blanket, lying together on a mattress. They'd written a goodbye letter apparently. Remembering getting upset because the police officers joked about it: "wow, he was blue in the face" (but someone later said perhaps that was their way of dealing with stuff like that in such a job and that it was probably not meant for others to hear, just work jargon and not uncaring).

The upsetting thing is that looking back they HAD been showing signs beforehand, for weeks- They'd behaved really strangely. The week before they started approaching us with stuff asking if we wanted their food, their books- 'Because they didn't want it anymore'... Asking if we wanted their dinner leftovers in the fridge, they didn't look depressed at all and nobody knew how to respond as they seemed really close knit keepin themselves to themselves, quietly making dinner then leaving for their room, nothing seemed wrong at all- but thought such behaviour was odd and the way they sort of looked me in the eye when they asked whether i wanted this or that item or not... I could't quite work out what it was, but it was weird. They just seemed a bit exhausted (not alarming, sice the one who lived with us was a bicycle courier) and like they wanted to stay at home to chill out a bit. We didn't know his friend, he only showed up about a week before and they stayed in together for about a week before it happened.

'A', the bloke who lived with us was a lovely guy, always seemed really friendly, although I distanced myself from him like I did with everyone else there because it was rented bedsits from a private landlord shark and you didn't choose the other people who lived there, we were random strangers really. And someone had been disrupting everyone else's sleep for a long time with nightly female orgasm howls from their room, and being shallow and judgemental and pigeonholing people I of course thought it must've been him having 'visitors'(later discovered it was in fact coming from the room of a pretty fun-loving and liberated lesbian girl at the end of the hall). So I was perhaps not as welcoming towards him was I could've been, keeping a little bit of distance to show my disapproval of the night noise, although he was always very friendly and nice to talk to. Looking back I regret to hell that I didn't talk to him more.

I still have a Calvin and Hobbes comic book he gave me, he wrote his name in it before he gave it to me, with the date. It had been in the loo for everyone to read, probably full of bacteria but it was such a nice gesture to give me the book that I was really surprised and a bit touched that he'd wanted me to have anything. Just a few days later, he was gone. Remembering him racing across the hall each morning for work, such a handsome boy with spiky blond hair and a funny russian fur hat with earmuffs... Such a lovely bloke. So young and with his whole life ahead of him, such a waste.

I still have that book he gave me. Couldn't bring myself to chuck it out. I don't think about him that often, but when I remember it it's still sad. He should've lived.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

kittyP said:


> I am very doubtful of the bit in bold for more than just some exceptional cases.


I am an optimist, I wouldn't claim to be a suicide expert and my experience is mainly with people with mental health problems but I think more than in just a few cases, I think in a lot of cases the right kind of help can produce a life worth living.

I knew one woman who tried to kill herself because her young husband had died unexpectedly. Obviously the absence of her husband couldn't be cured, but given time she could still have a life worth living no?


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

Ceej said:


> ...and it turns out that Alan Brazil IS as stupid as he sounds....
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...alan-brazil-talksport-comments_n_5670941.html


 A convicted drink driver, yet has the brass neck to call a depressed man who took his own life 'selfish,' fucking hypocrite.....


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I am an optimist, I wouldn't claim to be a suicide expert and my experience is mainly with people with mental health problems but I think more than in just a few cases, I think in a lot of cases the right kind of help can produce a life worth living.
> 
> I knew one woman who tried to kill herself because her young husband had died unexpectedly. Obviously the absence of her husband couldn't be cured, but given time she could still have a life worth living no?



It was just you made it sounds like, that apart from a few cases, suicidal people could generally have their situation *fixed*. 
I don't agree.

If course it can happen 'a lot' but to *fix *the situation of the vast majority of suicidal people... I doubt it. 
You might stop them committing suicide but an awful lot of them (more than just exceptions) are quite likely to carry on being plagued by what ever made them go that way in the fist place.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 12, 2014)

kittyP said:


> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/...leftist-attitude/?onswipe_redirect=no&oswrr=1
> 
> I know it's Rush Limbaugh so what do you really expect but ugh!
> Nasty vile excuse for a man.



How many lives has Rush Limbaugh touched? Not including all those little kids, zero, probably.


----------



## 8den (Aug 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


>




Yeah I ended up trying to console the poor kid at my uncle's wake. Fucking asshole,(my uncle not the kid)*

My uncle is can assholke because he knew this kid was going to be the one to find him.
 D
I know. I know suicide is can complex and hard issue, just its this kid was so upset and traumatised by what he witnessed  he never even camne to the wake. He ran away, and I ran after him tried to hug him and thank him for what he tried to do. He was just devastated. He thought wed be angry because he didn't save my unbclkes life.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## Gingerman (Aug 12, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> How many lives has Rush Limbaugh touched? Not including all those little kids, zero, probably.


 Dont think there will be too much outpouring of grief if Rush Shitburg ever cops it......


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

kittyP said:


> It was just you made it sounds like, that apart from a few cases, suicidal people could generally have their situation *fixed*.
> I don't agree.
> 
> If course it can happen 'a lot' but to *fix *the situation of the vast majority of suicidal people... I doubt it.
> You might stop them committing suicide but an awful lot of them (more than just exceptions) are quite likely to carry on being plagued by what ever made them go that way in the fist place.


You have a point certainly. The people I know who have successfully committed suicide obviously did not find the help they received enough to prevent them from going through with it. Perhaps I do have an overly optimistic view.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

I do think that for some people who have had to deal with addiction and depression for a very long time just run out of fight and no therapy or drugs or kind words will make them want to keep on breathing.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

maya said:


> I know. I know of one exception though. Back in my early twenties when I lived in some pretty cramped shared housing (9 rooms/people on one floor, shared kitchen/toilet/shower), one of our neighbours ('A') committed double suicide together with his best friend ('B'), just out of the blue. Got home late at night one day and met by an ambulance outside and when I got up the stairs, police in the hall and in their room, the door was open and I saw them covered by a blanket, lying together on a mattress. They'd written a goodbye letter apparently. Remembering getting upset because the police officers joked about it: "wow, he was blue in the face" (but someone later said perhaps that was their way of dealing with stuff like that in such a job and that it was probably not meant for others to hear, just work jargon and not uncaring).
> 
> The upsetting thing is that looking back they HAD been showing signs beforehand, for weeks- They'd behaved really strangely. The week before they started approaching us with stuff asking if we wanted their food, their books- 'Because they didn't want it anymore'... Asking if we wanted their dinner leftovers in the fridge, they didn't look depressed at all and nobody knew how to respond as they seemed really close knit keepin themselves to themselves, quietly making dinner then leaving for their room, nothing seemed wrong at all- but thought such behaviour was odd and the way they sort of looked me in the eye when they asked whether i wanted this or that item or not... I could't quite work out what it was, but it was weird. They just seemed a bit exhausted (not alarming, sice the one who lived with us was a bicycle courier) and like they wanted to stay at home to chill out a bit. We didn't know his friend, he only showed up about a week before and they stayed in together for about a week before it happened.
> 
> ...



maya did you ever come to a reason as to why they did it?


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

maya said:


> IIRC in the majority of cases the suicidal person behave completely like normal beforehand, so others- even close friends and family- can't see anything out of the ordinary, there's no signs that there's anything wrong. That's what's so incredibly scary, and also so incredibly sad.



Others have reported loved ones as appearing happier than ever been, like a weight has been lifted. Which is just horrible or seems it from this side of the fence anyway.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2014)

maya said:


> I know. I know of one exception though. Back in my early twenties when I lived in some pretty cramped shared housing (9 rooms/people on one floor, shared kitchen/toilet/shower), one of our neighbours ('A') committed double suicide together with his best friend ('B'), just out of the blue. Got home late at night one day and met by an ambulance outside and when I got up the stairs, police in the hall and in their room, the door was open and I saw them covered by a blanket, lying together on a mattress. They'd written a goodbye letter apparently. Remembering getting upset because the police officers joked about it: "wow, he was blue in the face" (but someone later said perhaps that was their way of dealing with stuff like that in such a job and that it was probably not meant for others to hear, just work jargon and not uncaring).
> 
> The upsetting thing is that looking back they HAD been showing signs beforehand, for weeks- They'd behaved really strangely. The week before they started approaching us with stuff asking if we wanted their food, their books- 'Because they didn't want it anymore'... Asking if we wanted their dinner leftovers in the fridge, they didn't look depressed at all and nobody knew how to respond as they seemed really close knit keepin themselves to themselves, quietly making dinner then leaving for their room, nothing seemed wrong at all- but thought such behaviour was odd and the way they sort of looked me in the eye when they asked whether i wanted this or that item or not... I could't quite work out what it was, but it was weird. They just seemed a bit exhausted (not alarming, sice the one who lived with us was a bicycle courier) and like they wanted to stay at home to chill out a bit. We didn't know his friend, he only showed up about a week before and they stayed in together for about a week before it happened.
> 
> ...



Oh how sad 

My very good friend from schools aunt (I know it sounds like a vague relationship but I knew the aunt very well) died in a suicide pact with a friend.
I don't know if it is even more tragic or not but the friend survived and she didn't.
The last I knew they friend was still institutionalised.
Very very tragic.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 12, 2014)

weltweit said:


> You have a point certainly. The people I know who have successfully committed suicide obviously did not find the help they received enough to prevent them from going through with it. Perhaps I do have an overly optimistic view.



From my own experiences with depression all I can say that I know how hard it can be to "fess up" and get help when you're in those horrible dark places. Of course everything is an effort when you're there but the guilt on top of everything else makes it just about impossible.


----------



## poului (Aug 12, 2014)

Really like Jimmy Kimmel's tribute:

_"Robin was as sweet a man as he was funny. If you're sad, please tell someone."_


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2014)

Do you have to be 'sad' to kill yourself?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 12, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> From my own experiences with depression all I can say that I know how hard it can be to "fess up" and get help when you're in those horrible dark places. Of course everything is an effort when you're there but the guilt on top of everything else makes it just about impossible.


Sorry you have had bad experiences and I can understand difficulty in asking for help. I find depression very difficult to relate to even though I have been depressed myself. It often goes against logic, someone can have a seemingly perfect life yet still they are depressed, and treatments are not always successful.

I remember a woman with all the ingredients for a good life, but was badly depressed for the long term. She had tried all the drugs to little avail and ended up on courses of ECT, the only remaining treatment that seemed to do something for her. But it did not seem to make sense that she was even depressed.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Do you have to be 'sad' to kill yourself?



No I don't think so. But I reckon that most people that do have a big element of sadness in their lives.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Sorry you have had bad experiences and I can understand difficulty in asking for help. I find depression very difficult to relate to even though I have been depressed myself. It often goes against logic, someone can have a seemingly perfect life yet still they are depressed, and treatments are not always successful.
> 
> I remember a woman with all the ingredients for a good life, but was badly depressed for the long term. She had tried all the drugs to little avail and ended up on courses of ECT, the only remaining treatment that seemed to do something for her. But it did not seem to make sense that she was even depressed.



I think for a lot of people depression is a very chemical thing. 
And unfortunately the ADs available far from suit everyone.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Do you have to be 'sad' to kill yourself?



i've heard from people who  have tried who said they did not even known they were planning to attempt it..


----------



## Cheesypoof (Aug 13, 2014)

Its tricky....i fully support euthansia and 'do not resusitate' in bad circumstances....i also believe that people should have freedom over their lives to do what they want with them, even if that involves drugs and living recklessly. That does not necessarily mean you have led an unfulfilled or 'bad' life... i have known angels who were addicts.... However, I think that no matter how bad things get, its better to be alive than not. If i were feeling really bad, i dont think i would end it, because you just leave all this pain and horror for those behind. Better off living.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> No I don't think so. But I reckon that most people that do have a big element of sadness in their lives.


Oh definitely. But maybe some people see life just getting more and more of a struggle for them and think that it's best to call it a day before they actually get sad about it.
I wonder if some suicides stem from ennui instead of despair.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Its tricky....i fully support euthansia and 'do not resusitate' in bad circumstances....i also believe that people should have freedom over their lives to do what they want with them, even if that involves drugs and living recklessly. That does not necessarily mean you have led an unfulfilled or 'bad' life... i have known angels who were addicts.... However, I think that no matter how bad things get, its better to be alive than not. If i were feeling really bad, i dont think i would end it, because you just leave all this pain and horror for those behind. Better off living.


If only to 'please' other people? I think for some, this is too much to ask.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> If only to 'please' other people? I think for some, this is too much to ask.



I see your point, but i feel that the agony one suicide leaves behind, collectively, must be far beyond the pain of one person.


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I do think that for some people who have had to deal with addiction and depression for a very long time just run out of fight and no therapy or drugs or kind words will make them want to keep on breathing.



Yep, this I can totally understand. 

I can't express how exhausting it is being depressed for so long. With periods of feeling well, I've been depressed for 21 years. I was first given Prozac when I was 14 and have spent more of my life medicated than not. 

I reckon just running out of fight is the point a lot of people reach.

As for people appearing happy and calm beforehand, I've seen that too. My housemate killed himself and looking back it was obvious really.

It's a very long story but basically his dad murdered his girlfriend in front of him. My mate got on with his life, held down his job and stayed away from heroin (recovering addict). 

He was waiting for the trial. He seemed calm, coped really well with giving evidence etc but the day the trial finished he took a massive heroin overdose. 

We found him a couple of days later in his room. 

He couldn't live without his girlfriend or cope with the horror of seeing her violently killed. I'm sure he'd been planning it for months and despite seeing the pain his family were in, I don't blame him at all.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I don't have a problem with "committed suicide" which I prefer to "died by suicide". Died implies a natural end which suicide is not. Just RIP might be ok but we now know he killed himself, and killing yourself is not a natural end. On reflection I would have preferred "Robin Williams killed himself, RIP"


Another possible title: "Robin Williams Is Dead"


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I see your point, but i feel that the agony one suicide leaves behind, collectively, must be far beyond the pain of one person.


That's a huge responsibility to foist upon someone who is already in a huge amount of mental strain


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 13, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> As for people appearing happy and calm beforehand, I've seen that too.


This is a well documented phenomenon. Once you've resolved to do it, it can leave you very calm and seemingly contented. You've made the decision. It's done. The solution is at hand.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

I think the role most suited to him was in Hook.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is a well documented phenomenon. Once you've resolved to do it, it can leave you very calm and seemingly contented. You've made the decision. It's done. The solution is at hand.


Or  for the person making the decision.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> You have a point certainly. The people I know who have successfully committed suicide obviously did not find the help they received enough to prevent them from going through with it. Perhaps I do have an overly optimistic view.



But it's a very, very complex issue, and sometimes, there really is no help to be had, nor wanted. Some do appear calm and happy, and appear to be moving away from their troubles, but often it's because their decision has been made and they're happy with it. Some you can see it coming, and are powerless to help, some is completely, shockingly out of the blue. And although some major life trauma or horrible background can be a trigger, equally, people who have been through these difficult times sometimes have more coping mechanisms than others who, on the face of it, have 'nothing' to be depressed about. Depression and suicidal issues are at epidemic proportions and there's no one effective solution.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Or  for the person making the decision.


I've never known anyone left behind to be consoled by that thought, though. It's hard and often impossible to get over the suicide of someone close to you. It leaves a horrible unfillable emptiness.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've never known anyone left behind to be consoled by that thought, though. It's hard and often impossible to get over the suicide of someone close to you. It leaves a horrible unfillable emptiness.


Yes of course. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. 

When someone succumbs to a long painful physical illness, their death is described as a relief for the sufferer but also for their loved ones. It is not when mental illness has led to their death and I find this curious. It is always seen as a bleak tragedy


----------



## elbows (Aug 13, 2014)

Many ugly front pages of the papers on Wednesday I see. Classy stuff, not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-28767188


----------



## Cheesypoof (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> That's a huge responsibility to foist upon someone who is already in a huge amount of mental strain



Well, no matter what pain, to try to think of those who will be left behind.. maybe those who dont go through with it manage to stop because of this.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Well, no matter what pain, to try to think of those who will be left behind.. maybe those who dont go through with it manage to stop because of this.


And have to continue suffering


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Well, no matter what pain, to try to think of those who will be left behind.. maybe those who dont go through with it manage to stop because of this.





Orang Utan said:


> And have to continue suffering


It's very complex and one persons case vastly differs for another. 

Some people don't kill themselves because of not being able to do that to their loved ones, get strength from that and carry on. 

Some people don't kill themselves because of not being able to do that to their loved ones and carry on suffering. 
And a whole load of other stuff around and in between.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> And have to continue suffering



have you ever lost someone to suicide? it's a never-ending, bottomless pit of pain/ agony, for the rest of one's life, for the loved ones of the person who does it. 
not that I don't have sympathy for people who feel that hopeless, but seriously, I would never do it in a million years no matter how desperate I was, because I would never want to inflict that kind of pain on someone.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Well people do, so there must be a point where one's own feelings trumps your loved ones' feelings. A horrible situation to be in. 
But who are even loved ones to say that their feelings are more important than the feelings of a person who wants to die?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

[I'll leave this to the experts]


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Well people do, so there must be a point where one's own feelings trumps your loved ones' feelings. A horrible situation to be in.
> But who are even loved ones to say that their feelings are more important than the feelings of a person who wants to die?



I understand where you're coming from, but I really don't want to get into this.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2014)

apols if this has been posted on this thread already
(Williams meeting Koko the gorilla)


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Perhaps the knowledge that there is someone out there who loves [the suffering person] so much that their suicide will be life-destroying for the survivor, can bring some sense of hope to the suffering person.


Maybe, but that's a big maybe. And that's still not much of a life. Living the rest of your natural life unhappily cos other people will be unhappy if you go before that.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Miss Caphat said:


> I understand where you're coming from, but I really don't want to get into this.


You don't have to.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> But who are even loved ones to say that their feelings are more important than the feelings of a person who wants to die?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Not what I meant.
> 
> Recognizing the love someone else has for the person, is a stepping stone to finding other things that once again might make living life, worthwhile.


For a lot of people with severe depression, that kind of recognition is well nigh impossible - the kind of distortions of thinking that depression can produce are exactly things like "I am unlovable", "I'm a burden/the world would be better off without me", and there is rarely any mileage in challenging these beliefs head-on.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

Great but don't assume it's the same for everyone.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## trashpony (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> It's unlikely that quite such a detailed account (particularly in regard to the means) would have appeared in the UK press.


I was watching BBC World Service ( or whatever the international TV station is called) and they broadcast the entire interview. Absolutely gruesome and wholly unnecessary


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 13, 2014)

Suicide is always emotive for the person who can no longer endure the torment as well as the family and friends who after the event can spend the rest of their own lives wondering what more they could have done to have helped the one lost.
In most cases the heart searching and remorse help those left behind to attain a clear conscience.
Suicides are rarely selfish either, I have heard people say, 'he only did this to hurt him/her/his family/his boss etc. But in my own experience one of those close to me that slipped away even tidied up, went to the loo, left letters and noted to family and friends and even left a sorry note for the person who found him.
This is the mental turmoil of people on the edge of taking their own lives, many spend a lot of time planning for it.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Never did: but if it worked once for one person, it might help others.
> 
> Is there harm in suggesting things that might help?


No, but where mental illness is concerned, there is huge harm in sweeping generalisations and assumptions that will tend to make people already on the margins feel even more misunderstood and excluded. 

There is a reason why the kind of people who work with this stuff for a living are often perceived as being excessively precious and fussy about terminology, and this is it.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

trashpony said:


> I was watching BBC World Service ( or whatever the international TV station is called) and they broadcast the entire interview. Absolutely gruesome and wholly unnecessary



That would warrant a complaint, in my view, complete with the link to the Samaritans media guidelines. The BBC, of all organisations, should be doing better than that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've made none. I've been there, and I'm reporting on something that happened.
> 
> Does what I'm saying conflict with what they taught you at counsellor's school?


Stop the sneering, Canuck3. I'm not talking about counselling skills - I'm talking about common decency and compassion. 

If you have a problem with those concepts, that is down to a failing in YOUR social education, not mine. 

You said you didn't want this thread to be a bunfight: but you seem to be going out of your way to turn it into one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Needless to say, such things are highly personal and emotive, and are brought up in the spirit of a thread about the despair and hopelessness that some people find themselves trapped in.
> 
> It's not offered as fuel for one of your ridiculous bunfights.


No need to be combative about it. People are just trying to understand why people would take their own lives. Sometimes people feel that there just is no good enough reason to continue living. 
People keep suggesting that this doesn't have to be the case, but that clearly isn't true as people continue to top themselves.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> I think for a lot of people depression is a very chemical thing.
> And unfortunately the ADs available far from suit everyone.


Indeed a slight change in brain chemistry can have dramatic effects on mood and behaviour.

In part it gives me hope, because medication can often correct chemistry, as you allude, if it is at all possible, and if the right medication is selected. Chemical imbalance can sometimes come on very quickly. That said, as you mention the medication does not always suit and some conditions seem to respond better than others to medication. I think medical, psychiatrist's, knowledge is actually pretty limited.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Not sure what you're talking about.
> 
> I had my battles with depression in my Twenties: now, it's almost 40 years, a family, and a profession later. Believe me when I say that I have a large compassion for those facing similar; and I know that it's possible to win those battles.




But it's not always possible, hence the fact that people still succeed in kling themselves.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> But it's not always possible, hence the fact that people still succeed in kling themselves.



Like Robin Williams did, yesterday.

Did you think he was any good in Hook?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Like Robin Williams did, yesterday.
> 
> Did you think he was any good in Hook?


Yes! And like many people in the future.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 13, 2014)

Thoughtful piece about media responsibility....
(removed)


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Not sure what you're talking about.
> 
> I had my battles with depression in my Twenties: now, it's almost 40 years, a family, and a profession later. Believe me when I say that I have a large compassion for those facing similar; and I know that it's possible to win those battles.


Maybe there needs to be another thread. 

I don't feel good about having this discussion on this thread.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> Maybe there needs to be another thread.
> 
> I don't feel good about having this discussion on this thread.



Why? It's a good, worthwhile discussion that need to be had and it's been reasonably enlightening and civil so far.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Why? It's a good, worthwhile discussion that need to be had and it's been reasonably enlightening and civil so far.


I know what you mean, and it may well be that threads about famous people dying by suicide are a good starting point for such discussions, but some will just want to pay their respects without necessarily getting mixed up in a debate about the nuances of suicidal behaviour.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

I guess so, but things move fast here!


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 13, 2014)

Ceej said:


> Thoughtful piece about media responsibility....
> 
> http://maryhamilton.co.uk/2014/08/reporting-suicide-kill-readers/


Has it states in this link from ceej, just reading about suicide can be confirmation for someone on the edge to act on that impulse.
I am sure that we would all have trouble sleeping if someone reading this thread decided that reads what is on this thread as evidence to step off that ledge.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

Robin Williams and Pam Dawber in Mork and Mindy:


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Has it states in this link from ceej, just reading about suicide can be confirmation for someone on the edge to act on that impulse.
> I am sure that we would all have trouble sleeping if someone reading this thread decided that reads what is on this thread as evidence to step off that ledge.


Would this be less likely to happen if the discussion were to happen on another thread? Or should the discussion not be had in public?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Would this be less likely to happen if the discussion were to happen on another thread? Or should the discussion not be had in public?


It's not about not having the discussion in public, imo. 

But a discussion about the phenomenology of suicide might be hard for someone who is feeling triggered by RW's death to have to deal with.


----------



## wayward bob (Aug 13, 2014)

Ceej said:


> Thoughtful piece about media responsibility....
> 
> http://maryhamilton.co.uk/2014/08/reporting-suicide-kill-readers/



i also appreciate that it addresses the madness/genius assumption that's so pervasive in our culture - and has been for hundreds of years - but barely brushes the surface of the complexity of the interrelationship between an illness and a talent.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Has it states in this link from ceej, just reading about suicide can be confirmation for someone on the edge to act on that impulse.
> I am sure that we would all have trouble sleeping if someone reading this thread decided that reads what is on this thread as evidence to step off that ledge.


There is plenty of information and discussion areas online, where people with suicidal ideation can go to discuss such things. And I am afraid someone prominent like Robin Williams killing himself generates publicity like little else around the subject of suicide.

However threads like these can help to guide our own actions and responses if we come across people who might be suicidal so I don't think such discussion is always negative.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

Hook sure was a good movie: RIP Robin Williams.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> It's not about not having the discussion in public, imo.
> 
> But a discussion about the phenomenology of suicide might be hard for someone who is feeling triggered by RW's death to have to deal with.


OK. I'd start a thread but I'm off out to play with my gidgets (TM quimcunx )


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> OK. I'd start a thread but I'm off out to play with my gidgets (TM quimcunx )


http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/a-discussion-about-suicide.237028/


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/a-discussion-about-suicide.237028/


Wouldn't it best to start a new one?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Wouldn't it best to start a new one?


I don't mind either way ..


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Did you think he was any good in Hook?


I haven't seen Hook. Are you trying to change the subject?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 13, 2014)

Robin Williams, the man who is dead, starred in Hook. No, I'm not trying to change the subject.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Robin Williams, the man who is dead, starred in Hook. No, I'm not trying to change the subject.


We were talking about suicide though. I'll start a new thread this afternoon about it as I think it would be a shame to curtail the discussion just as it was getting somewhere.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Robin Williams, the man who is dead, starred in Hook. No, I'm not trying to change the subject.


I really enjoyed Good Morning Vietnam. And not just for Williams's performance which was great, some of the other characters were also very funny.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> maya did you ever come to a reason as to why they did it?


I'm not sure if it was just hearsay or not because his brother didn't mention anything specific when he came round afterwards to pick up his stuff and it seemed insensitive to ask, but the other tenants said they suspected heavy drug use as they'd often caught them hiding something which looked like a mirror just as others entered the room, and other things which looked like other drugs/gear. The brother asked if we could pass on any bank statements if that arrived in the mail, so it looked like he'd been in some sort of money trouble (massive debts he couldn't pay off), aswell as the drugs... We didn't know him that well, but for all we knew he could've had some sort of mental health problem- his brother had been very worried for him apparently and when he that day were unable to contact him by phone and hadn't been in touch with him for a few days he understood something was very wrong... So perhaps subconsciously he already feared the worst.

The strangest thing is (and I shouldn't really say this, because the person who told us this broke the confidentiality wow) that the sister of a friend who studied psychology right after this told us they'd been presented with a 'case' just like this in a lecture: The lecturers said it was an example of something which had happened very recently and two friends who had done it and apparently everyone in that class got to read the letter, I don't know what to think but it sounds very much like 'our' friend but where the f... did they get permission to use that case and even copies of the letter? It's just... I don't know. My friend (whose sister had told her about it, even though she wasn't supposed to as, you know- confidentiality) didn't give many details but said that in the letter it said something like, "we just want to die"... Which is the saddest thing about it all, because they were great people and so young.

Of course both I and a lot of the people who lived there ended up blaming ourselves for a long time, analysing things back and forth- thinking about what if we could've done things differenttly, would that perhaps have made a difference? But thinking about it now, I believe that it looks like he'd already made up his mind, and the only thing which could've saved him in this horrible scenario would've been if he miraculously didn't succeed in what he did, it's unlikely that anyone else would've been able to save him. Not that it makes it in any way less sad, of course.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

Hook is a great family film.  It's one of the few Spielberg films I can actually stand. The scene where the grown-up Peter (Williams) gets recognised as Peter Pan even though he's not a young boy anymore, always made me hem and haw a bit (I never cry). Even though it doesn't work as a standalone fantasy film, it's a good example of fantasy elements successfully incorporated into a mainstream family film... I especially loved the place where the lost boys live, that whole escapist fantasy thing about exotic jungle island, treehuts and benevolent (well, moody-) fairies, swinging from lianas, fighting pirates and befriending exciting indians, etc... Plus Dustin Hoffman is fantastic as Hook! He used to be a good actor. (@Johnny Canuck3, Orang Utan )


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> Of course both I and a lot of the people who lived there ended up blaming ourselves for a long time, analysing things back and forth- thinking about what if we could've done things differenttly, would that perhaps have made a difference? But thinking about it now, I believe that it looks like he'd already made up his mind, and the only thing which could've saved him in this horrible scenario would've been if he miraculously didn't succeed in what he did, it's unlikely that anyone else would've been able to save him. Not that it makes it in any way less sad, of course.



We went through similar when our friend died. There were 7 of us in the house, we looked out for each other, there were night and day staff (it was supported lodgings for under 25s) and he was our friend. 

We'd been partying, sat outside his room having a sneaky spliff, talking about how great he was doing and he was dead, feet away from us.

Why didn't we notice he'd come home, why hadn't we checked he was still staying with his family etc etc

But like you, we reached the conclusion that it was going to happen and if not then, another time. He just wanted to see his dad go to prison first.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> But like you, we reached the conclusion that it was going to happen and if not then, another time.


That's so sad about your friend, I'm sorry for your loss. Yeah, IYKWIM I'm not saying one shouldn't try to help people at all, or not rally around to try and protect them if they're in a vulnerable situation, but people who are that determined are very difficult to protect, because it's almost impossible to be around them 24-7, and even then you won't really know whether therapy is working or whether their problem can ever be fixed enough for them to be safe/stable again. We should always try to help people, but sometimes helping isn't enough. It's very difficult to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. (I'm not blaming anyone, it's nobody's fault)


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

Thank you, and yours. It was a long time ago now but always comes to mind when stuff like this happens.

I dunno, maybe accepting that life is sometimes just too hard would make it easier for us to talk about suicide. It still feels like such a taboo and people are scared to have a conversation.

Even with medical professionals, you don't want to mention it for fear of sparking a chain of events or panic.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> I dunno, maybe accepting that life is sometimes just too hard would make it easier for us to talk about suicide. It still feels like such a taboo and people are scared to have a conversation.


I am not sure, we had a reasonable discussion here about it some time back, I think people are more prepared to discuss it than one might think.


sparklefish said:


> Even with medical professionals, you don't want to mention it for fear of sparking a chain of events or panic.


Well with doctors yes there is a lot of reticence, even to discuss depression, sometimes for fear of seeming weak or somehow not in control. Certainly where men are concerned I don't think it is seen as manly to admit to mental weakness to a doctor.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> I dunno, maybe accepting that life is sometimes just too hard would make it easier for us to talk about suicide. It still feels like such a taboo and people are scared to have a conversation.
> 
> Even with medical professionals, you don't want to mention it for fear of sparking a chain of events or panic.


I think there might be a fear in the 'profession'(psychologists, counsellors and similar) that if you encourage a patient to talk too much about it, or talk about it at all, you somehow 'encourage' that person to carry it out IRL, or even condone it- And of course the moral and ethical side of that makes people a bit nervous, and prone to steer the conversation back to 'safer', less disturbing topics.

The downside of that of course, is that many people who could've actually benefited from a calm, serious discussion with a trained professional about something they for various reasons have thought about a lot (and want to avoid, but still feel the need to talk about because both the urgency of their thoughts and perhaps the reasons behind their despair which made them land on such a twisted 'solution' in the first place needs to be adressed, for them to get better) end up afraid to tell anyone about it, knowing that mentioning this to your therapist of whatever won't get a very useful response (fear of being sectioned perhaps, or for other invasive 'interventions'- however irrational it may be not to want any help when you actually need it) So instead people end up telling noone about it, and without any support one of course becomes more vulnerable, ill and less likely to try and do it.

Perhaps it would've been more useful for the patient in such a situation if there had been more openness and willingness to engage in an active dialogue with that person where they were allowed to talk about everything and not hold anything back, just as a therapeutic thing where you're allowed to talk about it, then the professional could act as a corrective guide to try and change their thinking. For all I know, something like that is already being done. But I realise the dangers of such an approach, though- it could result in the patient ending up more suicidal, for some reason I think most people would've been helped by it if the therapist had managed to respond in a helpful way and ease their worries/pain. It's a difficult discussion, but bottling up and never talking about stuff to anyone must be less helpful than actually being allowed to talk, IMHO. Being met with empathy by someone who listens could help some.


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I am not sure, we had a reasonable discussion here about it some time back, I think people are more prepared to discuss it than one might think.



I mean more IRL really, there are a lot of people on here with personal and professional experience and I think it's easier to talk when you feel more anonymous.

[/QUOTE] Well with doctors yes there is a lot of reticence, even to discuss depression, sometimes for fear of seeming weak or somehow not in control. Certainly where men are concerned I don't think it is seen as manly to admit to mental weakness to a doctor.[/QUOTE]

There is that but also the worry that admitting you've considered it or have thoughts about it means you are going to do it.

It's probably unfounded and I'm sure therapists particularly are very used to having those conversations without being alarmist.


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

Sorry, I'm on my phone and fucked up splitting that post.


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> I think there might be a fear in the 'profession'(psychologists, counsellors and similar) that if you encourage a patient to talk too much about it, or talk about it at all, you somehow 'encourage' that person to carry it out IRL, or even condone it- And of course the moral and ethical side of that makes people a bit nervous, and prone to steer the conversation back to 'safer', less disturbing topics.
> 
> The downside of that of course, is that many people who could've actually benefited from a calm, serious discussion with a trained professional about something they for various reasons have thought about a lot (and want to avoid, but still feel the need to talk about because both the urgency of their thoughts and perhaps the reasons behind their despair which made them land on such a twisted 'solution' in the first place needs to be adressed, for them to get better) end up afraid to tell anyone about it, knowing that mentioning this to your therapist of whatever won't get a very useful response (fear of being sectioned perhaps, or for other invasive 'interventions'- however irrational it may be not to want any help when you actually need it) So instead people end up telling noone about it, and without any support one of course becomes more vulnerable, ill and less likely to try and do it.
> 
> Perhaps it would've been more useful for the patient in such a situation if there had been more openness and willingness to engage in an active dialogue with that person where they were allowed to talk about everything and not hold anything back, just as a therapeutic thing where you're allowed to talk about it, then the professional could act as a corrective guide to try and change their thinking. For all I know, something like that is already being done. But I realise the dangers of such an approach, though- it could result in the patient ending up more suicidal, for some reason I think most people would've been helped by it if the therapist had managed to respond in a helpful way and ease their worries/pain. It's a difficult discussion, but bottling up and never talking about stuff to anyone must be less helpful than actually being allowed to talk, IMHO. Being met with empathy by someone who listens could help some.



Yep, absolutely this and I think it probably is being done to an extent. I think if someone is holding back significantly from a therapist then the treatment/practitioner may not be right for them. 

I'm seeing a therapist at the moment (for the 3rd time) and we've just reached a point where I can pretty much tell him anything and know that he won't be shocked or over-react or belittle my feelings. 

That's why the current system is shit because a maximum of 20 sessions which is what we're offered here isn't enough to get to that point.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> Yep, absolutely this and I think it probably is being done to an extent. I think if someone is holding back significantly from a therapist then the treatment/practitioner may not be right for them.


Yeah. Actually I often think about things like this myself, but I know the psychologist I'm seeing is obliged to 'pass on a report' to the appropriate instances if I ever mention suicidal thoughts, so I keep quiet about it... My problem is, I'm too selfish to _really_ want to carry it out, but I still _think_ about it- I want to live, yet still don't in a way because everything is painful and my life is beyond repair... So I like to ruminate and obsessively turn the hopeless thoughts around in my head, again and again bump my head against the negative thoughts and wallow in it, like a moth against a lightbulb over and over again. I'm not going to, but I'm not going to stop hurting or feeling hopeless and in pain either... And since people don't want to hear about that, it only makes it worse. There's such a stigma and taboo against this, which doesn't help at all when you have those feelings. I mean, I've been hopelessly depressed and thought about stuff like this from I was 4 years old... I think the reluctancy by mental health professionals to openly engage in a person's pain and despaired thoughts (they're too happy-chappy and eager to immediately start to point out the positive things or tell you to start thinking positively with the snap of a finger without acknowledging your deep feelings of loss, hurt or pain), to the detriment of the person they're actually helping. Nothing hurts more than starting telling the therapist about your painful experiences or thoughts, than that person rudely and abruptly (and insensitively!) immediately cut you off and tell you to talk about something else and more positive instead, because they don't want to hear about it... It would've helped a lot more if someone would listen. (I could say a lot more, but suddenly remembered this isn't in the health forum and so publicly visible)


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> That's so sad about your friend, I'm sorry for your loss. Yeah, IYKWIM I'm not saying one shouldn't try to help people at all, or not rally around to try and protect them if they're in a vulnerable situation, but people who are that determined are very difficult to protect, because it's almost impossible to be around them 24-7, and even then you won't really know whether therapy is working or whether their problem can ever be fixed enough for them to be safe/stable again. We should always try to help people, but sometimes helping isn't enough. It's very difficult to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. (I'm not blaming anyone, it's nobody's fault)





sparklefish said:


> We went through similar when our friend died. There were 7 of us in the house, we looked out for each other, there were night and day staff (it was supported lodgings for under 25s) and he was our friend.
> 
> We'd been partying, sat outside his room having a sneaky spliff, talking about how great he was doing and he was dead, feet away from us.
> 
> ...



So sorry to hear about both of these.
Such tragedy. 

(((Maya & Sparklefish)))


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> That's a huge responsibility to foist upon someone who is already in a huge amount of mental strain



Maybe but saying that to somebody might help them realise they are not alone and might help them to realise just how selfish they are about to be.


----------



## Looby (Aug 13, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Maybe but saying that to somebody might help them realise they are not alone and might help them to realise just how selfish they are about to be.



Or it could just increase the self-loathing and sense of worthlessness.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 13, 2014)

Miss Caphat said:


> have you ever lost someone to suicide? it's a never-ending, bottomless pit of pain/ agony, for the rest of one's life, for the loved ones of the person who does it.
> not that I don't have sympathy for people who feel that hopeless, but seriously, I would never do it in a million years no matter how desperate I was, because I would never want to inflict that kind of pain on someone.



I thankfully haven't but used to be mates with a bloke who's mum jumped in front of a train when he was a kid. To say it fucked him up for life would be an under-statement.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Maybe but saying that to somebody might help them realise they are not alone and might help them to realise just how selfish they are about to be.


I think people considering suicide are past being selfish. To be selfish does one not have to have a certain sense of self and others? That is not to say the act cannot seem selfish to those left behind. But I think people who are suicidal are in the main mentally ill. 


sparklefish said:


> Or it could just increase the self-loathing and sense of worthlessness.


Quite ..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2014)

Gingerman said:


> A real gem and the only John Irving book imo that was ever successfully adapted for screen, both cast-wise and tone,RW brought 'Garp' brilliantly to life.....



"The Hotel New Hampshire" worked, but only if you hadn't already read the book, IYSWIM.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Maybe but saying that to somebody might help them realise they are not alone and might help them to realise just how selfish they are about to be.


Don't use that word.
A suicidal person has to live with their own mind, not anyone else. Finding that intolerable is not selfish.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 13, 2014)

If only life was that simple eh?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Don't use that word.
> A suicidal person has to live with their own mind, not anyone else. Finding that intolerable is not selfish.


 
It's common for suicidal people to look at the results of their previous actions and illness and conclude that those around them would be better off without them.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 13, 2014)

An hour in the mind of a seriously depressed person feels like a week. Though they might be horrified at the pain their death could inflict on others, it starts to feel unrealistic to them that they can possibly withstand years and years more of the anguish they are experiencing, no matter what the consequences are.

You might as well tell them to do a handstand for 30 years without a break. It's not possible.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Don't use that word.
> A suicidal person has to live with their own mind, not anyone else. Finding that intolerable is not selfish.



I think the assumption is that people who kill themselves have typically been suffering with an ongoing severe emotional problem for many years until they can't take it any more.
In my experience, this is not necessarily true. As far as selfishness, I think that is neither here nor there...shortsightedness maybe, given the number of people who are talked out of suicide every year, or make a failed attempt etc, and go on to live relatively happy, normal lives.


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> Yeah. Actually I often think about things like this myself, but I know the psychologist I'm seeing is obliged to 'pass on a report' to the appropriate instances if I ever mention suicidal thoughts, so I keep quiet about it... My problem is, I'm too selfish to _really_ want to carry it out, but I still _think_ about it- I want to live, yet still don't in a way because everything is painful and my life is beyond repair... So I like to ruminate and obsessively turn the hopeless thoughts around in my head, again and again bump my head against the negative thoughts and wallow in it, like a moth against a lightbulb over and over again. I'm not going to, but I'm not going to stop hurting or feeling hopeless and in pain either... And since people don't want to hear about that, it only makes it worse. There's such a stigma and taboo against this, which doesn't help at all when you have those feelings. I mean, I've been hopelessly depressed and thought about stuff like this from I was 4 years old... I think the reluctancy by mental health professionals to openly engage in a person's pain and despaired thoughts (they're too happy-chappy and eager to immediately start to point out the positive things or tell you to start thinking positively with the snap of a finger without acknowledging your deep feelings of loss, hurt or pain), to the detriment of the person they're actually helping. Nothing hurts more than starting telling the therapist about your painful experiences or thoughts, than that person rudely and abruptly (and insensitively!) immediately cut you off and tell you to talk about something else and more positive instead, because they don't want to hear about it... It would've helped a lot more if someone would listen. (I could say a lot more, but suddenly remembered this isn't in the health forum and so publicly visible)


 
I can really relate to all of this. I am surprised to hear of your experience with therapists. Have you ever spoken to a Person Centred or Humanistic one? I would hope that if they're skilled enough then they would stay with you in that moment rather than attempting to shove you into, in their view, a more cheery space.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 13, 2014)

Lots of love and luck to you maya with finding something that helps. Forgive my rather trite words too.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> I can really relate to all of this. I am surprised to hear of your experience with therapists. Have you ever spoken to a Person Centred or Humanistic one? I would hope that if they're skilled enough then they would stay with you in that moment rather than attempting to shove you into, in their view, a more cheery space.


Thanks. No, I haven't but that sounds interesting. I'm not sure whether there are humanist therapists in my area, will have a look though. Due to circumstances I can't really go into detail about on here, I'm sort of obliged to keep my current psychologist for a while (even though she's not optimal) because she's part of a larger back-on-track plan where I have obligations to attend sessions and so on. But it must be so much more productive to find a therapist you actually get along with though. (I haven't got much money, which doesn't really help...) Hope you're allright and get/got to sort out your troubles too.


----------



## maya (Aug 13, 2014)

(Sorry, didn't mean to make this a thread about me! But interesting that we turned this thread into a serious and mostly non-jokey conversation about suicide, it's like we've regained something of old urban recently, a nicer vibe around here most of the time... which is uplifting (and cool  ))


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2014)

odd to think about perhaps, but we probably all know people who have made suicide attempts or at least came very close.


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> Thanks. No, I haven't but that sounds interesting. I'm not sure whether there are humanist therapists in my area, will have a look though. Due to circumstances I can't really go into detail about on here, I'm sort of obliged to keep my current psychologist for a while (even though she's not optimal) because she's part of a larger back-on-track plan where I have obligations to attend sessions and so on. But it must be so much more productive to find a therapist you actually get along with though. (I haven't got much money, which doesn't really help...) Hope you're allright and get/got to sort out your troubles too.


 
The relationship you have with your therapist Is the foundation stone of the whole therapy. If you are simply given one and told to get on with it then you are much less likely to have a successful outcome.

Don't feel that you are taking too much space by voicing your opinions. I have found them really helpful and I'm sure others have too. I'm sure you know this but thinking like that is part of your depression. I have only recently come to understand that my depression causes the voice that tells me stuff like "you shouldn't be posting as much, you're attention seeking" or whatever. I tell it to fuck off now.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/...leftist-attitude/?onswipe_redirect=no&oswrr=1
> 
> I know it's Rush Limbaugh so what do you really expect but ugh!
> Nasty vile excuse for a man.



I just don't have the adjectives for how vile that "man" is.


----------



## smmudge (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> I think there might be a fear in the 'profession'(psychologists, counsellors and similar) that if you encourage a patient to talk too much about it, or talk about it at all, you somehow 'encourage' that person to carry it out IRL, or even condone it- And of course the moral and ethical side of that makes people a bit nervous, and prone to steer the conversation back to 'safer', less disturbing topics.



I think the guidance now is that talking about it is very good and there's no evidence to suggest that it will plant any ideas in someone's mind or make them any more likely to take their life. The healthcare professionals I've seen do ask and want to go into quite some detail, I've only managed to dodge it once in a GP appt but part of assessing risk is them knowing how 'far along' you've thought about it I think. And my CPN especially did try and engage with me about the specifics, maybe some people would find it a relief talking about that but I hate it, with anyone  But when the therapist dismissed you that sounds like completely the wrong way to go about it, but yeah, I think healthcare professionals are willing to have those frank discussions now.

Oh yeah and not a lot happens when you tell someone about suicidal thoughts, unless there's another service that's more appropriate to help you, but generally they've probably heard it before because it's really common


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm not sure if talking about suicide plants thoughts in someone's head but when I'm in that space I am simply obsessed with suicide. It kind of ebbs and flows but I'm basically putting every piece of input through the suicide lens. That tree? How would I get a rope over the low branch. That door? Would it support my weight. That cup, if I broke it would I clean up the mess first or not? I wonder if that person has ever lost anyone to suicide? And so on. 

So I really value the breaks when I get them when I am in that space therefore I wouldn't want to talk about it with anyone.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 13, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I just don't have the adjectives for how vile that "man" is.



Bill Hicks did ...


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> I'm not sure if talking about suicide plants thoughts in someone's head but when I'm in that space I am simply obsessed with suicide. It kind of ebbs and flows but I'm basically putting every piece of input through the suicide lens. That tree? How would I get a rope over the low branch.


I know someone who climbed a tree with a rope, tied one end round his neck and the other round a branch and then jumped. ......... the branch broke and he ended up sitting on his arse in the mud at the bottom of the tree! He tried a couple of other methods and each time failed in equally silly ways. In the end, when I met him, he seemed to have come to the conclusion suicide was just not for him! 


bmd said:


> That door? Would it support my weight. That cup, if I broke it would I clean up the mess first or not? I wonder if that person has ever lost anyone to suicide? And so on.
> 
> So I really value the breaks when I get them when I am in that space therefore I wouldn't want to talk about it with anyone.


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I know someone who climbed a tree with a rope, tied one end round his neck and the other round a branch and then jumped. ......... the branch broke and he ended up sitting on his arse in the mud at the bottom of the tree! He tried a couple of other methods and each time failed in equally silly ways. In the end, when I met him, he seemed to have come to the conclusion suicide was just not for him!


 
The only time I tried to hang myself I tied a rope from the bannister, stepped off it and woke up in a heap at the bottom of the stairs surrounded by pieces of the bannister. Fail. 

I have also been on the other side of a bridge willing myself to let go and my hands wouldn't do it. Fail.

Am I glad? I'm glad for my children. When I get obsessed with suicidal thoughts now I think of the things they have said and I have a book with stuff written in it from them too.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> The only time I tried to hang myself I tied a rope from the bannister, stepped off it and woke up in a heap at the bottom of the stairs surrounded by pieces of the bannister. Fail.
> 
> I have also been on the other side of a bridge willing myself to let go and my hands wouldn't do it. Fail.


Sorry that you have been that close to doing it, I am glad it didn't work out. 


bmd said:


> Am I glad? I'm glad for my children. When I get obsessed with suicidal thoughts now I think of the things they have said and I have a book with stuff written in it from them too.


That sounds very positive.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

smmudge said:


> I think the guidance now is that talking about it is very good and there's no evidence to suggest that it will plant any ideas in someone's mind or make them any more likely to take their life. The healthcare professionals I've seen do ask and want to go into quite some detail, I've only managed to dodge it once in a GP appt but part of assessing risk is them knowing how 'far along' you've thought about it I think. And my CPN especially did try and engage with me about the specifics, maybe some people would find it a relief talking about that but I hate it, with anyone  But when the therapist dismissed you that sounds like completely the wrong way to go about it, but yeah, I think healthcare professionals are willing to have those frank discussions now.
> 
> Oh yeah and not a lot happens when you tell someone about suicidal thoughts, unless there's another service that's more appropriate to help you, but generally they've probably heard it before because it's really common



I find it embarrassing to talk about, even with professionals but also a relief oddly at the same time. 

And yes they have nearly always heard it all before and worse.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> I'm not sure if talking about suicide plants thoughts in someone's head but when I'm in that space I am simply obsessed with suicide. It kind of ebbs and flows but I'm basically putting every piece of input through the suicide lens. That tree? How would I get a rope over the low branch. That door? Would it support my weight. That cup, if I broke it would I clean up the mess first or not? I wonder if that person has ever lost anyone to suicide? And so on.
> 
> So I really value the breaks when I get them when I am in that space therefore I wouldn't want to talk about it with anyone.



Liked because of identifying with this.


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> Liked because of identifying with this.


 
I have only recently talked about this so openly and often. My head is telling me to stop attention seeking of course but it can fuck off. Part of the reason I talk about it is that I feel it needs more people to do that. For lots of reasons. I can really understand you feeling embarrassment, I do too which is why I say stuff on here, to test it out.

i actually walk around my flat telling myself what a wanker I am, out loud, for posting this stuff and feel acutely embarrassed but I need to do it if I'm ever going to get it out of me.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

A lovely CBT therapist I saw said to me "I am not telling you not to think about suicide, but every time you do just think "not now, not today, I can in the future if I want to but not now"". 
I thought it was a stupid idea at the time but it actually worked for me. 

It's like the "Free beer tomorrow" signs in pubs. That day just never comes.


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> I have only recently talked about this so openly and often. My head is telling me to stop attention seeking of course but it can fuck off. Part of the reason I talk about it is that I feel it needs more people to do that. For lots of reasons. I can really understand you feeling embarrassment, I do too which is why I say stuff on here, to test it out.
> 
> i actually walk around my flat telling myself what a wanker I am, out loud, for posting this stuff and feel acutely embarrassed but I need to do it if I'm ever going to get it out of me.


I think you're very brave. I can't go there yet.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> I have only recently talked about this so openly and often. My head is telling me to stop attention seeking of course but it can fuck off. Part of the reason I talk about it is that I feel it needs more people to do that. For lots of reasons. I can really understand you feeling embarrassment, I do too which is why I say stuff on here, to test it out.
> 
> i actually walk around my flat telling myself what a wanker I am, out loud, for posting this stuff and feel acutely embarrassed but I need to do it if I'm ever going to get it out of me.



Again, yes, I know exactly what you mean. 

I am much more used to talking about it now but also get the "attention seeking wanker" feelings about myself.


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> Again, yes, I know exactly what you mean.
> 
> I am much more used to talking about it now but also get the "attention seeking wanker" feelings about myself.


 
See!? It feels so good to know I'm not alone. It really does.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> See!? It feels so good to know I'm not alone. It really does.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> i actually walk around my flat telling myself what a wanker I am, out loud,


Ha! I think we all do that!
(Tell ourselves we are wankers out loud, not you!)


----------



## bmd (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Ha! I think we all do that!


 
I have only recently realised this too. I think it's about the impact of The Voice that differentiates it all. I don't spend a long time doing this at the moment but I can. It can stop me coming on here because I am so afraid of other peoples reactions to what I say. Sometimes I have to ignore the likes thing completely if I come on here because I have convinced myself that everyone is just thinking I'm a massive cunt. Ridiculous I know.

eta or maybe not lol


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

bmd said:


> I have only recently realised this too. I think it's about the impact of The Voice that differentiates it all. I don't spend a long time doing this at the moment but I can. It can stop me coming on here because I am so afraid of other peoples reactions to what I say. Sometimes I have to ignore the likes thing completely if I come on here because I have convinced myself that everyone is just thinking I'm a massive cunt. Ridiculous I know.
> 
> eta or maybe not lol



That wasn't a sympathy like btw. I know how you feel.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 13, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Bill Hicks did ...



It comes close, but still doesn't quite cover Limbaugh's cuntishness.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 13, 2014)

I read about this today. Lisa Jakub, the girl who played the eldest daughter in Mrs. Doubtfire was apparently expelled from school for taking a few months off to shoot the movie. Williams wrote this letter of support to the principle:








The letter fell on deaf ears though, and she was still refused the opportunity to come back. But the principle went ahead and framed it and hung it in her office anyway. What a cunt!

http://www.independent.ie/style/cel...tar-to-school-that-expelled-her-30505977.html


----------



## brogdale (Aug 13, 2014)

8den said:


>




An account of the debate that has subsequently arisen about the wisdom of this tweet...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ms-was-dangerously-irresponsible-9666141.html



> I find that message troubling. Its immediate simplicity belies extraordinary scope for misinterpretation and misrepresentation. It could have even broken The Samaritans' guidelines for media on reporting on suicide, which warn against anything that might “suggest that people are honouring the suicidal behaviour, rather than mourning a death”. Despite the Academy's sentiment, suicide is not freedom. It's a cry for help that always comes too late.





> It has resonated, and no wonder. I’ll admit that my initial reaction was positive. The sentiment was loving, coupling Disney’s comforting familiarity with a poignant farewell. But I felt a whisper of unease, and as I saw more and more people share, quote, and "like" the thing, the louder that whisper grew until it massed to a certain clamour that said: no.
> 
> To intimate, however subtly or unintentionally that taking your own life is a liberating action, is irresponsible and dangerous. While someone who is not suicidal might look at the picture of the genie and find comfort, someone whose mind is weighed heavy by depression may see something dangerously different.


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 13, 2014)

Poor bloke, incredible talent. RIP


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

maya said:


> I think there might be a fear in the 'profession'(psychologists, counsellors and similar) that if you encourage a patient to talk too much about it, or talk about it at all, you somehow 'encourage' that person to carry it out IRL, or even condone it- And of course the moral and ethical side of that makes people a bit nervous, and prone to steer the conversation back to 'safer', less disturbing topics..


There is a general myth that talking about suicide can encourage it, but it is very much a myth. 

For all the reasons you describe in your post, it is imperative that professionals are willing to discuss and engage with clients/patients about the subject. 

I've trained about 200 counsellors, trainee and qualified, in basic suicide awareness and intervention skills (available for weddings, christenings and children's parties, enquire within), and it comes as quite a shock to them when we do the role play bit and I end up telling them "just ask him if he is feeling like ending his life". 

But it's exactly the right thing to do - the first step in stopping someone from killing themselves is making it possible for them to talk out loud about their feelings about wanting to die. 

I lived with an acutely suicidal woman for 12 years. I never want anyone else to go through the feelings of impotence and powerlessness I had to endure throughout that time: that, and stopping people from dying unnecessarily, is why I do this stuff.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Maybe but saying that to somebody might help them realise they are not alone and might help them to realise just how selfish they are about to be.


Please, no.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> No need to be combative about it. People are just trying to understand why people would take their own lives. Sometimes people feel that there just is no good enough reason to continue living.



And frankly this sometimes (although not very often) applies to people who are not depressed, "mentally ill" or in despair.



> People keep suggesting that this doesn't have to be the case, but that clearly isn't true as people continue to top themselves.



And we continue to believe that most people do so "while the balance of their mind was disturbed", as the coroner often says.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Don't use that word.
> A suicidal person has to live with their own mind, not anyone else. Finding that intolerable is not selfish.



I think it depends on the context in which you use the word.
It's certainly the case that the bereaved will often feel that the actions of the deceased were selfish, in that they were carried out with the deceased's desires in mind, not those of the bereaved.  For the deceased, though, their actions may have been entirely rational with regard to solving an otherwise-insoluble problem.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> It's common for suicidal people to look at the results of their previous actions and illness and conclude that those around them would be better off without them.



Whenever I see the word "suicidal", I wonder how often a suicide is *actually* "suicidal" in the context the media tend to give the word - i.e. invariably "mentally-ill" to the extent of exhibiting suicidal ideation - I'm not convinced it's as often as the media present it to be.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Whenever I see the word "suicidal", I wonder how often a suicide is *actually* "suicidal" in the context the media tend to give the word - i.e. invariably "mentally-ill" to the extent of exhibiting suicidal ideation - I'm not convinced it's as often as the media present it to be.


 
Not sure what you mean by this - do you mean you get suicides by people in the absence of suicidal ideation?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Plenty of people kill themselves because a physical illness has become intolerable. It doesn't even have to be illness, just increasing infirmity or dependence on others. I also think that the more exposure one has to these things the more likely one is to decide to end things BEFORE they become intolerable. Hence the high rate amongst medical professionals


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Plenty of people kill themselves because a physical illness has become intolerable. It doesn't even have to be illness, just increasing infirmity or dependence on others. I also think that the more exposure one has to these things the more likely one is to decide to end things BEFORE they become intolerable. Hence the high rate amongst medical professionals


 
Ok - kind of 'self-euthanisers'... 

You say 'plenty of people'.  Got any numbers or links?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ok - kind of 'self-euthanisers'...
> 
> You say 'plenty of people'.  Got any numbers or links?


"Voluntary auto-euthanasia" is the term of art, I believe...  

Numbers are hard to come by, because I don't think that statistics breaking down cause of death that finely are kept. Not to mention that coroners fall over themselves not to make a finding of suicide if they can possibly avoid it.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Plenty of people kill themselves because a physical illness has become intolerable. It doesn't even have to be illness, just increasing infirmity or dependence on others. I also think that the more exposure one has to these things the more likely one is to decide to end things BEFORE they become intolerable. Hence the high rate amongst medical professionals



I know its from 2005 and five but this is interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4310596.stm



> The suicide rate among vets is nearly four times the national average and double that of doctors or dentists, according to new research.





Spoiler: You mind not find it appropriate 



I remember someone, maybe a stand up comedian saying that vets must be really depressed because they are always having to purposely kill the very things the trained to save.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> "Voluntary auto-euthanasia" is the term of art, I believe...
> 
> Numbers are hard to come by, because I don't think that statistics breaking down cause of death that finely are kept. Not to mention that coroners fall over themselves not to make a finding of suicide if they can possibly avoid it.



Am I right in thinking that a lot of suicides get put down as "death by misadventure" by coroners?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ok - kind of 'self-euthanisers'...
> 
> You say 'plenty of people'.  Got any numbers or links?


No! I said plenty for a reason.

But, no, I wouldn't call it euthanasia in the case of people ending it when they are still reasonably healthy. It could be argued that such an act come from a rational, clear-sighted decision to opt out of life before things become too much


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> "Voluntary auto-euthanasia" is the term of art, I believe...


 
Thanks.  I always see it as kind of different to "suicide" suicide iyswim.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> No! I said plenty for a reason.


 
Well, I suppose it's more honest than plucking numbers oout of your arse...


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> Well, I suppose it's more honest than plucking numbers oout of your arse...


I'm not obliged to be precise, am I? I'm just talking about other reasons for killing oneself that don't come from 'suicidal ideation' and/or depression.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> Am I right in thinking that a lot of suicides get put down as "death by misadventure" by coroners?


I believe so. Or open or narrative verdicts. 

This is largely down to the social stigma associated with suicide, which meant that families were often glad to be free of the shame associated with it. 

I believe that there is now a group lobbying for coroners to be more willing to find a verdict of suicide rather than bending over backwards not to.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm not obliged to be precise, am I? I'm just talking about other reasons for killing oneself that don't come from 'suicidal ideation' and/or depression.


 
No, but I was wondering what you knew about the subject.  I was under the impression that it is very small number of people who kill themselves due to physical illness becoming intolerable, out of the total pool of suicides, though it's going to be tricky to tease apart since illness may be a factor in depressive suicides.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> Not sure what you mean by this - do you mean you get suicides by people in the absence of suicidal ideation?



I'm saying that some suicides take place as "impulse" suicides (although "impulse" doesn't properly describe it), rather than being born of somebody's internal conflict around the desire to "end it all".  The "suicidal ideation", if present at all, is extremely short-term, rather than being a longer-term symptom of a broader social and/or psychological problem.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm saying that some suicides take place as "impulse" suicides (although "impulse" doesn't properly describe it), rather than being born of somebody's internal conflict around the desire to "end it all".  The "suicidal ideation", if present at all, is extremely short-term, rather than being a longer-term symptom of a broader social and/or psychological problem.


 
You mean maybe like if someone is having a really bad time of things and thinks something along the lines of "I just need to yank this steering wheel to the left and it's all over"?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> No, but I was wondering what you knew about the subject.  I was under the impression that it is very small number of people who kill themselves due to physical illness becoming intolerable, out of the total pool of suicides, though it's going to be tricky to tease apart since illness may be a factor in depressive suicides.


I know as much as anyone. I have been thinking about it though - not doing myself in! Well, not yet anyway. I mean thinking about why people do themselves in and how I would deal with increasing infirmity as I age. I have a terrible fear of it. 
I suspect it happens more often than you'd think in old age. Plenty of access to drugs, increasing isolation and lack of control of one's life. But no suicide verdict given, just natural causes.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I know as much as anyone. I have been thinking about it though - not doing myself in! Well, not yet anyway. I mean thinking about why people do themselves in and how I would deal with increasing infirmity as I age. I have a terrible fear of it.
> I suspect it happens more often than you'd think in old age. Plenty of access to drugs, increasing isolation and lack of control of one's life. But no suicide verdict given, just natural causes.


 
Yeah, in terms of official suicide stats I'd think a lot flies under the radar.

I can see in terms of doing yourself in due to decrepitude it would be a bit like giving up smoking, every morning thinking 'well, just one more day won't hurt...' and before you know it you're 90 and doolally.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> Yeah, in terms of official suicide stats I'd think a lot flies under the radar.
> 
> I can see in terms of doing yourself in due to decrepitude it would be a bit like giving up smoking, every morning thinking 'well, just one more day won't hurt...' and before you know it you're 90 and doolally.


Yeah, that's what scares me. You get to a point when it is intolerable but you are too gaga or feeble to go through with it.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Yeah, that's what scares me. You get to a point when it is intolerable but you are too gaga or feeble to go through with it.


 
Don't want to be over-presumptious but I think dwelling on this stuff at your age might be a sign of depression, unless you've had family or friends going through similar which has put the subject at the forefront of your mind.  I get a bit like this when I'm depressed.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> Don't want to be over-presumptious but I think dwelling on this stuff at your age might be a sign of depression, unless you've had family or friends going through similar which has put the subject at the forefront of your mind.  I get a bit like this when I'm depressed.


Doesn't everyone think about this at some point? My parents are ageing (one with a progressive disabling illness) and I'm staying with them at the moment, so I probably am thinking about it more than usual. Depressed? I don't think so, unless I have been mildly depressed all my life. I prefer to see it as pessimism or maybe just being realistic.
PS I am 41, which I think is an age when one starts to consider these things as it's when people start killing themselves or when people's parents are facing death and infirmity.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Doesn't everyone think about this at some point? My parents are ageing (one with a progressive disabling illness) and I'm staying with them at the moment, so I probably am thinking about it more than usual. Depressed? I don't think so, unless I have been mildly depressed all my life. I prefer to see it as pessimism or maybe just being realistic.
> PS I am 41, which I think is an age when one starts to consider these things as it's when people start killing themselves or when people's parents are facing death and infirmity.


 
I think I remembered you were about a year older than me.  But yeah, I guess it's your personal circumstances in this case.  Not sure about what you mean in terms of 'when people start killing themselves', though - isn't the peak age still late 20's?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> I think I remembered you were about a year older than me.  But yeah, I guess it's your personal circumstances in this case.  Not sure about what you mean in terms of 'when people start killing themselves', though - isn't the peak age still late 20's?


I thought it was highest amongst men in their 40s?


----------



## killer b (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Depressed? I don't think so, unless I have been mildly depressed all my life.


hi there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought it was highest amongst men in their 40s?


did you try using google?

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/02February/Pages/UKs-suicide-rate-highest-among-middle-aged-men.aspx


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> did you try using google?
> 
> http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/02February/Pages/UKs-suicide-rate-highest-among-middle-aged-men.aspx


Nope. I was just chatting. Thanks for that though.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 13, 2014)

This was on my doorstep this morning


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> hi there.


Isn't being mildly depressed just a reasonable reaction to a shitty world with an uncertain future?


----------



## killer b (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn't being mildly depressed just a reasonable reaction to a shitty world with an uncertain future?


Certainly. Not a particularly useful or healthy one though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn't being mildly depressed just a reasonable reaction to a shitty world with an uncertain future?


the future is certain: no one gets out of here alive, unless you're planning to buck the trend


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm saying that some suicides take place as "impulse" suicides (although "impulse" doesn't properly describe it), rather than being born of somebody's internal conflict around the desire to "end it all".  The "suicidal ideation", if present at all, is extremely short-term, rather than being a longer-term symptom of a broader social and/or psychological problem.


Manic depressives relatively often commit suicide, my assumption was they think about and do it in their depressive phases but I was alarmed watching a documentary a couple of years ago to read about a couple of sufferers who just did it when they seemed stable and normal.

One was walking by a road and just threw themselves in the path of a speeding truck, they survived amazingly. The other ran and jumped off some cliffs in Cornwall, they had been walking I think with a friend and just did it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Manic depressives relatively often commit suicide, my assumption was they think about and do it in their depressive phases but I was alarmed watching a documentary a couple of years ago to read about a couple of sufferers who just did it when they seemed stable and normal.
> 
> One was walking by a road and just threw themselves in the path of a speeding truck, they survived amazingly. The other ran and jumped off some cliffs in Cornwall, they had been walking I think with a friend and just did it.


nothing like being spontaneous


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I know as much as anyone. I have been thinking about it though - not doing myself in! Well, not yet anyway. I mean thinking about why people do themselves in and how I would deal with increasing infirmity as I age. I have a terrible fear of it.
> I suspect it happens more often than you'd think in old age. Plenty of access to drugs, increasing isolation and lack of control of one's life. But no suicide verdict given, just natural causes.


The second-highest risk group for suicide is men over 70.

(young men between 16-24 are the highest-risk group)

ETA: WRONGGGG (see next post)


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> did you try using google?
> 
> http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/02February/Pages/UKs-suicide-rate-highest-among-middle-aged-men.aspx


Erk, interesting. I shall have to go back to my stats: for as long as I have known about it, the peak group has been men 17-24. 

ETA: http://www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/research-report-men-suicide-and-society

Well,  blow me. That's what happens when you take your eye off the ball.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

My aunt killed herself a few years ago. She had been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour. She had been a nurse and she had also been looking after my uncle who had recently gone blind, so she must have been very aware of the state of things to come. She was one of the kindest people I knew, yet very independent and reluctant to receive reciprocal help from others. She overdosed, without leaving a note. My uncle wasn't told this, and her death was ascribed to natural causes. She is not spoken of as a tragic suicide. She just died. She was ready and she went when she decided (well apart from the tumour forcing her hand somewhat). Sometimes it is not an avoidable tragedy. It can be a 'good' death.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> My aunt killed herself a few years ago. She had been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour. She had been a nurse and she had also been looking after my uncle who had recently gone blind, so she must have been very aware of the state of things to come. She was one of the kindest people I knew, yet very independent and reluctant to receive reciprocal help from others. She overdosed, without leaving a note. My uncle wasn't told this, and her death was ascribed to natural causes. She is not spoken of as a tragic suicide. She just died. She was ready and she went when she decided (well apart from the tumour forcing her hand somewhat). Sometimes it is not an avoidable tragedy. It can be a 'good' death.


I don't want to just click "Like", but, well, YKWIM.

Yes. Not all suicides have to be tragic.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I don't want to just click "Like", but, well, YKWIM.
> 
> Yes. Not all suicides have to be tragic.


That's what I was thinking. 
I didn't want to click like but it's kinda a good story. 
As good as a story about a terminal illness can be I suppose.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> My aunt killed herself a few years ago. She had been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour. She had been a nurse and she had also been looking after my uncle who had recently gone blind, so she must have been very aware of the state of things to come. She was one of the kindest people I knew, yet very independent and reluctant to receive reciprocal help from others. She overdosed, without leaving a note. My uncle wasn't told this, and her death was ascribed to natural causes. She is not spoken of as a tragic suicide. She just died. She was ready and she went when she decided (well apart from the tumour forcing her hand somewhat). Sometimes it is not an avoidable tragedy. It can be a 'good' death.


Perhaps that was what you meant when you alluded to people doing it after taking a rational decision. I wondered what you meant, but I can see it now.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Perhaps that was what you meant when you alluded to people doing it after taking a rational decision. I wondered what you meant, but I can see it now.


I didn't just mean that though. They're just the easiest examples to come up with. I wasn't actually thinking of my aunt when I made those posts earlier.
 I do also think it can be a rational, or at least understandable decision to take your life after years of mental anguish. To surrender and to say enough. I wouldn't want to accept such a decision from a family member though.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I didn't just mean that though. They're just the easiest examples to come up with. I wasn't actually thinking of my aunt when I made those posts earlier.
> I do also think it can be a rational, or at least understandable decision to take your life after years of mental anguish. To surrender and to say enough. I wouldn't want to accept such a decision from a family member though.


I suppose what is considered rational depends on an individual's circumstances. Which makes it hard for others to pass judgement unless they really know what that is.

I know my old local CMHT treated attempted suicides (without a mental health diagnosis) as inpatients, they argued they wanted to get the person back into a more normal mental state so they won't feel the need to kill themselves.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 13, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I suppose what is considered rational depends on an individual's circumstances. Which makes it hard for others to pass judgement unless they really know what that is.
> 
> I know my old local CMHT treated attempted suicides (without a mental health diagnosis) as inpatients, they argued they wanted to get the person back into a more normal mental state so they won't feel the need to kill themselves.


Whereas my local CAMHS had sent referrals of kids back after ODs as "refer back to school counsellor" on the basis that the patient wasn't suicidal enough to warrant going on the books. 

I won't miss that bit of the job when the redundancy kicks in.


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> There is a general myth that talking about suicide can encourage it, but it is very much a myth.
> 
> For all the reasons you describe in your post, it is imperative that professionals are willing to discuss and engage with clients/patients about the subject.
> 
> ...



Asking if someone feels suicidal / has felt so in the past and whether they have / are self harming is a standard question we must ask everyone who accesses our service.  I am surprised people don't see the importance and need to be direct with such a question tbh.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> Asking if someone feels suicidal / has felt so in the past and whether they have / are self harming is a standard question we must ask everyone who accesses our service.  I am surprised people don't see the importance and need to be direct with such a question tbh.



I am not surprised. 
Most people thankfully do not have to ever be involved with mental health services. 
I was shocked when I ended up having to use them and not always in a good way. 
It's a fucking minefield as a user sometimes. 
Although it was a relief (if not embarrassing and surprising) being asked so directly about suicidal ideation.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Nope. I was just chatting. Thanks for that though.



40-44 - well there you go, I'm learning a lot on Urban at the mo


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

8ball said:


> 40-44 - well there you go, I'm learning a lot on Urban at the mo


Well I intend to buck the trend!


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> I am not surprised.
> Most people thankfully do not have to ever be involved with mental health services.
> I was shocked when I ended up having to use them and not always in a good way.
> It's a fucking minefield as a user sometimes.
> Although it was a relief (if not embarrassing and surprising) being asked so directly about suicidal ideation.



We aren't a MH service and a relatively low number of our service users are actively using MH services.  Maybe its because of pre-existing knowledge regarding the impact of abuse that means we ask it.  I dunno really.  I think we should ask it though as, as you say, it can be a bit of a relief to be asked.

e2a - although a lot don't use MH services I suppose its fair to say a lot more would say they had MH difficulties.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 13, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> We aren't a MH service and a relatively low number of our service users are actively using MH services.  Maybe its because of pre-existing knowledge regarding the impact of abuse that means we ask it.  I dunno really.  I think we should ask it though as, as you say, it can be a bit of a relief to be asked.
> 
> e2a - although a lot don't use MH services I suppose its fair to say a lot more would say they had MH difficulties.



I know your not working in a MH service but the nature of your work makes you more aware of this stuff than most...?


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 13, 2014)

kittyP said:


> I know your not working in a MH service but the nature of your work makes you more aware of this stuff than most...?



I suppose so.  Easy to forget it isn't the same for others I guess.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> My aunt killed herself a few years ago. She had been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour. She had been a nurse and she had also been looking after my uncle who had recently gone blind, so she must have been very aware of the state of things to come. She was one of the kindest people I knew, yet very independent and reluctant to receive reciprocal help from others. She overdosed, without leaving a note. My uncle wasn't told this, and her death was ascribed to natural causes. She is not spoken of as a tragic suicide. She just died. She was ready and she went when she decided (well apart from the tumour forcing her hand somewhat). Sometimes it is not an avoidable tragedy. It can be a 'good' death.



That is so sad...


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 13, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> That is so sad...


But not tragic or regrettable.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 14, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I believe that there is now a group lobbying for coroners to be more willing to find a verdict of suicide rather than bending over backwards not to.



I was pushing for this ten years ago - at the time, the stats were that about 1500 young men aged 15-23 took their lives every year, but this didn't include the misadventures, the open verdicts, the accidental overdoses or the lads that ran their cars into lone trees on empty roads. In 2012, 5981 death-by-suicides were recorded (Office for National Statistics stats). 77% of these were men. It's hard to know the real scale of the problem when coroners remain reluctant to find suicide verdicts.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 14, 2014)

brogdale said:


> An account of the debate that has subsequently arisen about the wisdom of this tweet...
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ms-was-dangerously-irresponsible-9666141.html



I highly agree with the notion that suicide shouldn't be glorified in any way...it's way too easy for it to be taken as evidence that it's an acceptable way out for those searching for reasons to do it.

_To intimate, however subtly or unintentionally that taking your own life is a liberating action, is irresponsible and dangerous. While someone who is not suicidal might look at the picture of the genie and find comfort, someone whose mind is weighed heavy by depression may see something dangerously different._


----------



## harpo (Aug 14, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> That is so sad...


No it's not 'sad'.  It's a tale of everyday strength.


----------



## jusali (Aug 14, 2014)

I expect suicide will be my destiny. 
Having lived with depression for so many years, you feel you will never get away from it.
"It's treatable" they all say but it's just sticking plasters.
I think a lot more research needs to be done.
I feel sorry for Robin and his family but I feel more sorry for the pain he must have endured in his life cos I know it and live it too.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 14, 2014)

jusali said:


> I expect suicide will be my destiny.
> Having lived with depression for so many years, you feel you will never get away from it.
> "It's treatable" they all say but it's just sticking plasters.
> I think a lot more research needs to be done.
> I feel sorry for Robin and his family but I feel more sorry for the pain he must have endured in his life cos I know it and live it too.


Sorry liked for understanding.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 14, 2014)

Thoughtful piece by James McMahon, editor of Kerrang! on depression.
http://www.kerrang.com/21472/truth-rock-depression/


----------



## trashpony (Aug 14, 2014)

He had early stage Parkinson's his wife has said


----------



## Belushi (Aug 14, 2014)

Depression is a very common symptom of Parkinsons.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 14, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Depression is a very common symptom of Parkinsons.



He's also had had open heart surgery.  One of the side effects of that is often depression.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 14, 2014)

Press release from his wife.


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 14, 2014)

Good Will Hunting is on BBC1 tonight after the news


----------



## binka (Aug 14, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Good Will Hunting is on BBC1 tonight after the news


Just had top stop watching it - what a load of tedious old shite!


----------



## Cid (Aug 14, 2014)

And the maths is piss easy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 15, 2014)




----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 15, 2014)

DP


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 15, 2014)




----------



## elbows (Aug 17, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Depression is a very common symptom of Parkinsons.



And some of the drugs that are associated with treatment for Parkinsons are also being blamed by some now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...e-of-the-side-effects-is-suicide-9674151.html


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 17, 2014)

Whatever, he got whatever way before any diagnosis of anything, before any medication. He checked out. Too much pain. Sad but true.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 17, 2014)

Watched Insomnia last night. One of Robin Williams's better roles. Great ending as he sinks into the murky depths.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 17, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Watched Insomnia last night. One of Robin Williams's better roles. Great ending as he sinks into the murky depths.



Cracking film, can't remember the end though. And that photo killer one. He was good at the dark stuff.


----------



## Ceej (Aug 18, 2014)

RW in Law and Order SVU just starting...


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2014)

Ceej said:


> RW in Law and Order SVU just starting...


That just reminded me of his brilliant performance as a bereaved husband in Homicide:


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 18, 2014)

those bastard phelps family scum are saying theyll be harassing his funeral

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-was-hated-by-god-and-is-in-hell-9665392.html


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 18, 2014)




----------



## Ceej (Aug 18, 2014)

Having read that, I think we can expect this crowd at all of our funerals, then! Hard to see how many of us WOULD meet with their approval...

I'm a col-lapsed Catholic but if you are a God-bother, I'm sure there's something in the book love for your fellow man and not judging others.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 18, 2014)

Westboro Baptists protesting yet again.  With any luck this is the trigger needed for someone to beat the living shit out of these assholes.

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=884556


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 18, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Westboro Baptists protesting yet again.  With any luck this is the trigger needed for someone to beat the living shit out of these assholes.
> 
> http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=884556



One can but hope.

True story: when the first episode of Mork and Mindy premiered on Irish state television, I saw it advertised in my Da's paper. "Huh", thought I, "they must have meant to print 'Mark and Mindy', but got it wrong".

Not a very funny story, but then this isn't a funny thread.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2014)

Henry Rollins flexes his muscles in his full length mirror and writes without compassion:
http://consequenceofsound.net/2014/...-take-him-seriously-after-committing-suicide/


----------



## Left (Aug 22, 2014)

Holy shit, I knew Rollins was a bit of a twit but I thought he was at least on the right side of most things
I'm surprised he says he's never had depression, he comes across as very depressed and disturbed in his 80s diaries


----------



## gabi (Aug 22, 2014)

I actually kinda see his point. Williams death affected me beyond what it should, given I've never met the man. I loved him as a performer, and as a person. But suicide is selfish. Undeniably.

I spend half my life helping others, suicide is the opposite of that. His kids must be fucking distraught. I think Rollins phrased that much better than I could.


----------



## clicker (Aug 22, 2014)

But if depression is an illness and suicide a consequence in a minority of sufferers, is it selfish? It wasn't an act carried out by a rational mind.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2014)

Left said:


> Holy shit, I knew Rollins was a bit of a twit but I thought he was at least on the right side of most things
> I'm surprised he says he's never had depression, he comes across as very depressed and disturbed in his 80s diaries


Someone like him could never admit that.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2014)

gabi said:


> I actually kinda robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish
> it should, given I've never met the man. I loved him as a performer, and as a person. But suicide is selfish. Undeniably.
> 
> I spend half my life helping others, suicide is the opposite of that. His kids must be fucking distraught. I think Rollins phrased that much better than I could.


Wrong.
' to say taking your own life because of such an illness is a ‘selfish’ act does nothing but insult the deceased, potentially cause more harm and reveals a staggering ignorance of mental health problems'

http://www.theguardian.com/science/...lliams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 22, 2014)

Don't know about Rollins never being depressed personally. Maybe thats just an effect he has on other people.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 22, 2014)

I happen to think Rollins is an egotistical prick but some people do believe that suicide is a crime against Life and not just in the religious sense.
What's wrong with what he is saying is that, as he says he does, discounting the lives of people who have killed themselves means that you cannot appreciate, understand or learn from their suffering. If there are people so tormented or emotionally detached or damaged from the world that they cannot envisage a satisfying place in it then surely we should observe that, learn from it.
Saying 'La la, I'm not listening, you don't have the right to empathy because you ended your life' is (as well as callously overconcerned with your own experience and not others') choosing to remain ignorant of another's suffering.

It is every loving parents instinct to support their child. It's utterly insulting to suggest that by killing themselves a parent chooses to abandon their child and it's an all together black and white, absolutist position. Things are rarely so simple.
Parents feel despair and heartbreak and sadness that cuts them to the core. Having children brings other feelings and a sense of duty to be there but it doesn't prevent you from feeling those things and if those feelings should overwhelm you, being a parent is no protection. It's debatable whether parents must live their lives for their children (adult children in this case) but they certainly do have free will and the rights and capacity to choose their life.

I still think Rollins is a prick.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Nov 4, 2015)

Was not at all well, and no decent outcome expected according to his widow


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 5, 2015)

Fucking hell


----------



## blossie33 (Nov 5, 2015)

Yes, I read that yesterday, very sad 
It quite explains his action - takes alot of guts to do though.


----------



## Ranbay (Nov 5, 2015)

My step dad suffered from Lewy bodies, it's fucking horrible.


----------

