# 'Blacking up' is ok now? "Come Fly With Me" - new Little Britain thing.



## spanglechick (Jan 2, 2011)

I know this is last week's news, but "Come fly with me" being shown on BBC1 on xmas evening, and again on New Year's Day, has made me wonder whether it's now socially acceptable for white men to black up, and poke fun of racial stereotypes related to ethnicities who have a much harder time of things than your average white bloke.

I was particularly horrified by the character of Precious - a carribean immigrant coffee shop worker, who was shown to be lazy and dishonest... oh ho ho. God, how unhelpful is that? Cos that's not a negative stereotype that really hurts black people or anything...

But there was also a young british asian lad, some one-dimensional Japanese schoolgirls (the joke here was that the japaneese language sounds a bit funny, so you can make any old 'ree-ror' sounds and that will be a hoot), a turkish / middle easter businessman...

I mean fuck it - i don't find them funny anyway - but aren't there enough subtle as a brick, two dimensional archetypes they could draw on in their own ethnicity?  Of course, now I come to think of it, some of their most vile characatures are women and the disabled. oho.

But blacking up?  really?


----------



## aqua (Jan 2, 2011)

I didn't even start to watch it tbh. It's fucking horrific


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Jan 2, 2011)

Roger Sterling made it cool again.


----------



## strung out (Jan 2, 2011)

i was having an argument on another forum when someone posted up a picture of themselves blacking up for a mel b costume


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 2, 2011)

I imagine that they would say they're poking just as much fun at stupid, fat white people.


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2011)

I watched the first episode with my jaw on the floor. Desperately unfunny but also well dodgy IMO. Fuck knows how they got away with it.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I imagine that they would say they're poking just as much fun at stupid, fat white people.


 
Are many of their major characters white men? White able-bodied men, like themselves. The only one I can think of from Little Britain is the bloke who pushes Andy around in the wheelchair. 

TBH they strike me simply as bigoted fuckers who'd have fit in very well in the seventies comedy scene. It's just because nobody else on TV is so blatantly and consistently bigoted these days that we find it hard to believe that's what they're actually doing.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 2, 2011)

It's appalling.


----------



## miss minnie (Jan 2, 2011)

Somebody at christmas mentioned that it was about to start but was studiously ignored and talked over by everyone in the room, thank god.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 2, 2011)

scifisam said:


> Are many of their major characters white men? White able-bodied men, like themselves. The only one I can think of from Little Britain is the bloke who pushes Andy around in the wheelchair.
> 
> TBH they strike me simply as bigoted fuckers who'd have fit in very well in the seventies comedy scene. It's just because nobody else on TV is so blatantly and consistently bigoted these days that we find it hard to believe that's what they're actually doing.


 
I don't know, I don't watch it  I always thought it was crappy. Just offering a view.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

Surprised to see David Schwimmer in the end, in the most unfunny sketch of the lot. I bet he regrets taking part now.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> I watched the first episode with my jaw on the floor. Desperately unfunny but also well dodgy IMO. Fuck knows how they got away with it.


 There's more than one episode?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 2, 2011)

scifisam said:


> TBH they strike me simply as bigoted fuckers who'd have fit in very well in the seventies comedy scene. It's just because nobody else on TV is so blatantly and consistently bigoted these days that we find it hard to believe that's what they're actually doing.


 
I think you have made a very good point. They are the only ones doing it at the moment which helps them to get away with the 'we're all equal/post-racial/ we can all laugh at eachother' argument.

I didn't see it and am reluctant to watch it as I've never really liked Little Britain and think their style is lazy and reminds me of the bigots/comedians I grew up with awareness of during the 70's. Sentiments which, had a profound affect on my everyday life as they reflected the ideas of the majority of people in the society I was brought up in. Let's face it, they still exist in the national psyche through association, even if they are less obvious, overtly acted out, and to some extent, affecting.

I was listening to a radio programme the other day and they were discussing this programme,  a few Asian and Black people called in and said they didn't find it offensive. I think that blacking up is always going to be a 'risky' thing to do because of the associations /historical references we have. IMO we all have, on one level or another, internalised these stereotypes/ideas and/or  believe ourselves immune to them, which is why I think it is quite irresponsible for them to be doing what they do in this way.

Also, I think a major difference nowadays is that there is not widespread airing of this kind of comedy, also, that now there are far more positive representations of disabled, Black or Asian people on TV and in the media, so the 'bigotry' may be _perceived_ as less threatening.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 2, 2011)

I didn't find it offensive, just silly and not terribly funny.


----------



## paolo (Jan 2, 2011)

moomoo said:


> I didn't find it offensive, just silly and not terribly funny.


 
That.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

I didn't find it offensive either. There's appears to be quite a bit of being-outraged-on-some-other-people's-behalf surrounding this and LB, which is really quite tiresome.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 2, 2011)

Havent seen it as I nver rated Little Britain which i always thought was a second rate rip off of the Fast Show and League of Gentlemen; with an unpleasentness neither of those possesed imo.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> I didn't find it offensive either. There's appears to be quite a bit of being-outraged-on-some-other-people's-behalf surrounding this and LB, which is really quite tiresome.


 
As an aside. I take it that people actually did complain about this programme. Do you know the ethnicity of the people that complained?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> I know this is last week's news, but "Come fly with me" being shown on BBC1 on xmas evening, and again on New Year's Day, has made me wonder whether it's now socially acceptable for white men to black up, and poke fun of racial stereotypes related to ethnicities who have a much harder time of things than your average white bloke.
> 
> I was particularly horrified by the character of Precious - a carribean immigrant coffee shop worker, who was shown to be lazy and dishonest... oh ho ho. God, how unhelpful is that? Cos that's not a negative stereotype that really hurts black people or anything...
> 
> ...


 
When I saw the title, I thought this was an ernesto thread..... sorry.

Blacking up doesn't sound too good; but as for showing blacks in less than sterling characterizations - I think that showing blacks in consistently uplifting and positive roles is another type of patronizing racism. It's like 'maybe if we always write them as good people, it will help them resist their natural urges to do bad things.'

It's bullshit. People of all races etc form a spectrum of behavior. To try to perform some sort of social engineering via manipulation like this is as insidious and wrong as consistently writing black characters to be stupid, evil, watermelon eating boneheads.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> I didn't find it offensive either. There's appears to be quite a bit of being-outraged-on-some-other-people's-behalf surrounding this and LB, which is really quite tiresome.


 
I don't know about anyone else, but I can judge it bigoted without being outraged on someone else's behalf.


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> I didn't find it offensive either. There's appears to be quite a bit of being-outraged-on-some-other-people's-behalf surrounding this and LB, which is really quite tiresome.


 
How is 'Precious' different to Jim Davidson doing 'Chalky White'?


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

scifisam said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I can judge it bigoted without being outraged on someone else's behalf.


 
Did you check that the bigotees agree with you first?


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> How is 'Precious' different to Jim Davidson doing 'Chalky White'?


 
Jim Davidson is tory cunt. Anything he does is drenched in shit.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> When I saw the title, I thought this was an ernesto thread..... sorry.
> 
> Blacking up doesn't sound too good; but as for showing blacks in less than sterling characterizations - I think that showing blacks in consistently uplifting and positive roles is another type of patronizing racism. It's like 'maybe if we always write them as good people, it will help them resist their natural urges to do bad things.'
> 
> It's bullshit. People of all races etc form a spectrum of behavior. To try to perform some sort of social engineering via manipulation like this is as insidious and wrong as consistently writing black characters to be stupid, evil, watermelon eating boneheads.


 
I agree, but these shows don't just show women and black, gay, and disabled people as horrible people, they show them as mostly being that way _because_ they're black, gay, etc.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

Are all (or even most) airport workers at Heathrow white men?

How can two white guys do a show where they satirize a range of staff members if they don't dress up a bit.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Did you check that the bigotees agree with you first?


 
A bigotee? 

I will never understand this point of view. Do you really think that you have to be in a minority in order to notice bigotry against that minority? Sure, it helps, and the views of people in that minority certainly hold more weight, but if the only people allowed to speak out against racism were people who aren't white, then they'd have a hell of a lot of difficulty getting heard in this country. 

Besides, some of their bigotry is against women, gay people and people with disabilities, and I'm all three; does that mean I'm allowed to say the show's bigoted?


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Jim Davidson is tory cunt. Anything he does is drenched in shit.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Are all (or even most) airport workers at Heathrow white men?
> 
> How can two white guys do a show where they satirize a range of staff members if they don't dress up a bit.


 
Most shows hire actors.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

scifisam said:


> Most shows hire actors.


 
Not shows like this.

Monty Python? I suppose that was equally bigoted?


----------



## paolo (Jan 2, 2011)

scifisam said:


> Most shows hire actors.


 
Sketch shows?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 2, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> When I saw the title, I thought this was an ernesto thread..... sorry.
> 
> Blacking up doesn't sound too good; but as for showing blacks in less than sterling characterizations - I think that showing blacks in consistently uplifting and positive roles is another type of patronizing racism. It's like 'maybe if we always write them as good people, it will help them resist their natural urges to do bad things.'
> 
> It's bullshit. People of all races etc form a spectrum of behavior. To try to perform some sort of social engineering via manipulation like this is as insidious and wrong as consistently writing black characters to be stupid, evil, watermelon eating boneheads.


 
Maybe there's a third option of writing, y'know, well rounded charecters who have both flaws & good qualities?


----------



## flash (Jan 2, 2011)

Don't know why but I thought there was a huge difference between the first and second episodes (one was funny, one really wasn't). Bottom line is though virtually every character is a stereotype and you know the joke before they've brought it. The David Schwimmer scene though - WTF?!? - I'm sure someone somewhere thought that it was a good idea (if you didn't know who Matt LeBlanc was though....).


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Maybe there's a third option of writing, y'know, well rounded charecters who have both flaws & good qualities?


 
I think that's what I was implying: writing characters more in conformity with how people are in real life.

But to the extent that either the plot isn't that well developed, or the writer has limited ability - it's ok for a black actor or character to be the 'villain' of the piece at times.


----------



## paolo (Jan 2, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Maybe there's a third option of writing, y'know, well rounded charecters who have both flaws & good qualities?


 
Lucas and Walliams style is a parade of grotesques. This series isn't anything new in that respect, it's just that in previous series almost all the grotesques were white.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 2, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Maybe there's a third option of writing, y'know, well rounded charecters who have both flaws & good qualities?


 
There's no maybe about it, this option is of course the best one. However, it's not the model for lazy characterisations and cheap stereotypical laughs like the guys from LB do.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 2, 2011)

flash said:


> Don't know why but I thought there was a huge difference between the first and second episodes (one was funny, one really wasn't). Bottom line is though virtually every character is a stereotype and you know the joke before they've brought it. The David Schwimmer scene though - WTF?!? - I'm sure someone somewhere thought that it was a good idea (if you didn't know who Matt LeBlanc was though....).


 
I thought it must be some kind of in-joke, like he had a bet with LeBlanc he could accuse Aniston of having dodgy porn on national TV and get away with it, and Lucas etc fell for it thinking it would actually be a funny sketch.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 2, 2011)

I saw Schwimmer's stand-up on something. Risible.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 2, 2011)

scifisam said:


> Are many of their major characters white men? White able-bodied men, like themselves. The only one I can think of from Little Britain is the bloke who pushes Andy around in the wheelchair.


 
For that matter, even if there were, it still wouldn't be the same thing. I can imagine somebody writing a series with, say, an idle thieving dope-smoking black guy, a camp gay man who perves over young boys, a greedy Jew with a big nose... etc etc... and also a hypocritical eco-obsessed middle-class white Oxbridge BBC executive. Well great - that makes up for the rest right? Because we're being _balanced_.


----------



## IC3D (Jan 2, 2011)

It would be hard to make it an an airport if they could only do white men, and if the characters had good qualities their whole shtick wouldn't work. I thought it was funny(ish, they make you feel a bit uncomfortable) I'm debatably not a bigot as a rule and this won't make me. Its very tongue in cheek whereas nick nick wasn't. Are we offended by the scouse woman or the gay?


----------



## flash (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> I thought it must be some kind of in-joke, like he had a bet with LeBlanc he could accuse Aniston of having dodgy porn on national TV and get away with it, and Lucas etc fell for it thinking it would actually be a funny sketch.


 
This was along my lines of thinking for the whole second episode that there was an in-joke here, between Walliams and Lucas (and possibly Schwimmer and LeBlanc now that you mention it) that was being missed or I just didn't get as it wasn't generally funny (even with subtitles for any in-jokes I don't think it would have been funny).


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Not shows like this.
> 
> Monty Python? I suppose that was equally bigoted?



Did they black up? Did they have people being revolting because of their race, sexuality etc?



paolo999 said:


> Sketch shows?



A lot of them do, yes. But TBH I don't think the make-up itself is a big deal - though Christ almighty it's terrible make-up - but the characters are..



FridgeMagnet said:


> For that matter, even if there were, it still wouldn't be the same thing. I can imagine somebody writing a series with, say, an idle thieving dope-smoking black guy, a camp gay man who perves over young boys, a greedy Jew with a big nose... etc etc... and also a hypocritical eco-obsessed middle-class white Oxbridge BBC executive. Well great - that makes up for the rest right? Because we're being _balanced_.


 
Yup.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 2, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think that's what I was implying: writing characters more in conformity with how people are in real life.
> 
> But to the extent that either the plot isn't that well developed, or the writer has limited ability - it's ok for a black actor or character to be the 'villain' of the piece at times.


 
It's less about the basic idea of characters being unsympathetic or figures of fun, and more about them being based on existing negative stereotypes. A Jewish character who, oh, has really bad BO or something but refuses to do anything about it is not the same as one who's tight with money and always trying schemes to exploit other characters.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 2, 2011)

I hate the word 'offended.' Accusing someone of being offended by something is basically accusing them of being huffy and oversensitive. Most of the time people can say 'yeah, that's bigoted' without crying in a corner because their feelings have been hurt.


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 2, 2011)

I had no issue with Don when he balcked up in How not to live your life.







I think anything can be funny if done well. 

I did watch Come Fly With me but didn't find it that funny to be honest.


----------



## paolo (Jan 2, 2011)

B0B2oo9 said:


> I did watch Come Fly With me but didn't find it that funny to be honest.


 
I think that's its problem.

You can get away with alot if you're actually funny - e.g. Sacha Baron-Cohen.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's less about the basic idea of characters being unsympathetic or figures of fun, and more about them being based on existing negative stereotypes. A Jewish character who, oh, has really bad BO or something but refuses to do anything about it is not the same as one who's tight with money and always trying schemes to exploit other characters.


 
It depends how it's handled, and what place it has in the plot. For instance, The Wire would have been less than believable if many of the drug addicts, drug dealers, and killers living in the Baltimore ghetto, were portrayed by white actors.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 2, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It depends how it's handled, and what place it has in the plot. For instance, The Wire would have been less than believable if many of the drug addicts, drug dealers, and killers living in the Baltimore ghetto, were portrayed by white actors.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2011)

Blagsta said:


>


 
I love it when white people ridicule my opinions on the one thing with which I'm more familiar than they can ever be.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 2, 2011)

Was The Wire a comedy show?


----------



## madzone (Jan 2, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I love it when white people ridicule my opinions on the one thing with which I'm more familiar than they can ever be.


 
You are so missing the point 

These black characters _are _portrayed by white actors


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Was The Wire a comedy show?



Not to my recollection. The discussion here so far has been about the portrayal of human beings in works of fiction. It might have arisen from comments made about a comedy show, but the discussion rapidly progressed on to the larger issue.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> You are so missing the point
> 
> These black characters _are _portrayed by white actors


 
I give up.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It depends how it's handled, and what place it has in the plot. For instance, The Wire would have been less than believable if many of the drug addicts, drug dealers, and killers living in the Baltimore ghetto, were portrayed by white actors.


 
That's why I say the problem is when they're _based_ on stereotypes. The Wire isn't a story about bad black gangsters vs good white detectives. (I'd accuse the Wire of cliché a bit, but not in the same way.)


----------



## strung out (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It depends how it's handled, and what place it has in the plot. For instance, The Wire would have been less than believable if many of the drug addicts, drug dealers, and killers living in the Baltimore ghetto, were portrayed by white actors.


 
because that's exactly the kind of thing we're talking about in this thread


----------



## scifisam (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I love it when white people ridicule my opinions on the one thing with which I'm more familiar than they can ever be.


 
Thing is, you mentioned above about it being bad to have stereotyped watermelon-munching black characters, and that's pretty much what this show does.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 3, 2011)

Isn't the whole point of any Walliams/Lucas thing that they both play loads of different characters in the main roles? Them doing black/asian people is nothing new either if you look at Little Britain.

The whole thing is obviously a crap parody of age-old fly on the wall doc 'Airport' and they were just doing range of characters. Black, white or asian it wasn't racist. Just mind-numbingly crap comedy sending up different people you get in airports. Would be a bit odd if there was all white British people for sensitivity sake.

I think we can all mostly agree it was crap anyway.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 3, 2011)

I must admit I did laugh at the teddy bear sketch


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Not to my recollection. The discussion here so far has been about the portrayal of human beings in works of fiction. It might have arisen from comments made about a comedy show, but the discussion rapidly progressed on to the larger issue.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 3, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> I think that's its problem.
> 
> You can get away with alot if you're actually funny - e.g. Sacha Baron-Cohen.



interesting you mention someone who given his politics has a clear agenda, but is funny so its okay


----------



## smokedout (Jan 3, 2011)

dont think airport was racist particularly, just fucking lazy and not funny, the digs against transsexuals, disabled people etc have long been a feature hof their stuff, its never been very funny 

but no more bigoted than bo selecta, and a whole load of other unfunny shit, humours subjective innit


----------



## smokedout (Jan 3, 2011)

its all far more offensive from a class perspective tbh, at least nick nick and manning had some direct experience of the people they took the piss out of

most tv comedy now seems to be about smug posh cunts laughing about the people they see as beneath them


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 3, 2011)

i think what i meant to ask, but might've got sidetracked, is - is it ok for white actors, comedians, whatever... to 'black up'? I don't think any white actors have played Othello in high profile productions for a good three decades, and you never see Seller's 'comedy Indian' in "The Party" being shown on tv...  I thought that culturally we'd said 'no' to blacking (or 'asianing' up).


----------



## Riklet (Jan 3, 2011)

I wasn't offended watching the brief section of it I caught, but it seemed crap and unfunny, the japanese schoolgirls was the bit I saw really and it was just so pointless, lame and unfunny quite aside from the rather nasty side they expose of themselves through their characters.

I thought they were shit before and I still do now, but with an added sense of their unpleasantness.  Personally I find they can be more gross out generally unpleasant with their characters than Frankie Boyle going on about bats in cunts something, which seems to have more of an omgshockhorror fuss made about it.  Actually, the old lady faking her way onto the plane after being upgraded did make me laugh, that was quite a good takedown of the cringey niceness of 'Airport'


----------



## paolo (Jan 3, 2011)

smokedout said:


> interesting you mention someone who given his politics has a clear agenda, but is funny so its okay


 
I've no idea what his politics or agenda is.


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 3, 2011)

Another one here that works well and is funny.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 3, 2011)

Riklet said:


> I wasn't offended watching the brief section of it I caught, but it seemed crap and unfunny, the japanese schoolgirls was the bit I saw really and it was just so pointless, lame and unfunny quite aside from the rather nasty side they expose of themselves through their characters.
> 
> I thought they were shit before and I still do now, but with an added sense of their unpleasantness.  Personally I find they can be more gross out generally unpleasant with their characters than Frankie Boyle going on about bats in cunts something, which seems to have more of an omgshockhorror fuss made about it.



I think it is worth looking at the difference in scheduling too.  Boyle is late night midweek on a minority channel.  This was 10pm, yes - but on christmas day on BBC-fucking-bruce-forsythe-songs-of-praise-1.  BBC1 is middle england, vicar of unaccountably-popular-Dibley... in a way it can be said to reflect, and in cases (such as the first gay kiss on Enders), tweak what middle england considers acceptable. 

which appears to be comedians getting gags by blacking up.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 3, 2011)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Another one here that works well and is funny.


 
but that's different, becausee the plot is about a white actor who's blacking up. It deals with some of the issues around it's acceptability, and the butt of thejoke isn't being black, it's being an absurdly pretentious and cossetted (white) film star.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> I think it is worth looking at the difference in scheduling too.  Boyle is late night midweek on a minority channel.  This was 10pm, yes - but on christmas day on BBC-fucking-bruce-forsythe-songs-of-praise-1.  BBC1 is middle england, vicar of unaccountably-popular-Dibley... in a way it can be said to reflect, and in cases (such as the first gay kiss on Enders), tweak what middle england considers acceptable.
> 
> which appears to be comedians getting gags by blacking up.


thing is also, boyle was using language to illustrate attitudes i.e. demonstrating prejudicial attitudes by using prejudicial language, whereas it seems that little britain has little substance other than aiming to use stereotypes as the subject of the humour. 

haven't actually seen the programme so i'm as well-equipped as any daily mail reader anyhoo


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 3, 2011)

My post was in reply to the OP i think people can black up and it be ok or funny, but i also agree that's it can be not funny, like in this TV show come fly with me.


----------



## IC3D (Jan 3, 2011)

smokedout said:


> its all far more offensive from a class perspective tbh, at least nick nick and manning had some direct experience of the people they took the piss out of
> 
> most tv comedy now seems to be about smug posh cunts laughing about the people they see as beneath them


 I agree


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 3, 2011)

I was insulted by the way straight, white men were portrayed as either homophobic or completely under the thumb of domineering women.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

Jackobi said:


> I was insulted by the way straight, white men were portrayed as either homophobic or completely under the thumb of domineering women.


Personally insulted or on behalf of all straight, white men?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's why I say the problem is when they're _based_ on stereotypes. The Wire isn't a story about bad black gangsters vs good white detectives. (I'd accuse the Wire of cliché a bit, but not in the same way.)



I'd agree that if it's some bigot writing, whose only idea of some other group is stereotype, then they will not create a realistic portrayal. But if the story includes black people who happen to have negative traits - even if those have been associated with stereotypes in the past - then that isn't a problem. It's merely the creation of real characters in a work of fiction.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

scifisam said:


> Thing is, you mentioned above about it being bad to have stereotyped watermelon-munching black characters, and that's pretty much what this show does.



I said that consistently and exclusively creating black characters who have nothing but positive traits, is as bad as consistently creating one with nothing but negative traits.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'd agree that if it's some bigot writing, whose only idea of some other group is stereotype, then they will not create a realistic portrayal. But if the story includes black people who happen to have negative traits - even if those have been associated with stereotypes in the past - then that isn't a problem. It's merely the creation of real characters in a work of fiction.


Does any stereotype have any credibility in your opinion i.e. if a knowing stereotype is used as a tool to demonstrate some wider point?


----------



## El Sueno (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't think that being funny necessarily makes it acceptable. And vice-versa; that film 'White Girls' wasn't in the least bit funny but I don't think anybody lost any sleep about the Wayans Brothers dressing up and taking pot-shots at those cliches. But it's usually easy enough to spot if someone's being malicious with it or just ridiculous for the sake of trying to get a laugh.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

El Sueno said:


> I don't think that being funny necessarily makes it acceptable. And vice-versa; that film 'White Girls' wasn't in the least bit funny but I don't think anybody lost any sleep about the Wayans Brothers dressing up and taking pot-shots at those cliches. But it's usually easy enough to spot if someone's being malicious with it or just ridiculous for the sake of trying to get a laugh.


 
This is true.


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Personally insulted or on behalf of all straight, white men?


 
On behalf off...although it was a bit close to the bone, having been out with a few completely domineering women.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 3, 2011)

El Sueno said:


> I don't think that being funny necessarily makes it acceptable. And vice-versa; that film 'White Girls' wasn't in the least bit funny but I don't think anybody lost any sleep about the Wayans Brothers dressing up and taking pot-shots at those cliches. But it's usually easy enough to spot if someone's being malicious with it or just ridiculous for the sake of trying to get a laugh.


 
is it he same, thoughh - when poor, oppressed white people are the butt of the joke?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> is it he same, thoughh - when poor, oppressed white people are the butt of the joke?


 
Most of life is filled with the absurd. Looked at in the right way, it's possible to find something humorous in many situations, many people, many stations in life. There have  been comedies that poke fun at the wealthy also.

I think this ability to find humor is one of the mechanisms that helps us cope with all that can be negative in life.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

Jackobi said:


> On behalf off...although it was a bit close to the bone, having been out with a few completely domineering women.


Wow! That's impressive omniscience you've acquired there.

And it's '_of_', love


----------



## scifisam (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I said that consistently and exclusively creating black characters who have nothing but positive traits, is as bad as consistently creating one with nothing but negative traits.


 
Yes, and I agreed. I don't think anyone's actually disagreeing with what you're saying, you know, just that it's not really relevant to this TV show or to the topic of blacking up.


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Wow! That's impressive omniscience you've acquired there.



It is, I actually thought, "God, that stereotype is exactly what my life was like with my ex."



> And it's '_of_', love



I knew that.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 3, 2011)

If anyone wants to carry out an audit of the gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation/class of Little Britain characters they are listed here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/characters/


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Does any stereotype have any credibility in your opinion i.e. if a knowing stereotype is used as a tool to demonstrate some wider point?


*coughs*


----------



## El Sueno (Jan 3, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> is it he same, thoughh - when poor, oppressed white people are the butt of the joke?


 
I didn't actually watch the show because personally I find the whole Little Britain schtick of dressing up as grotesques fucking tiresome, but I imagine in their minds portraying other races is just a progression from dragging up. It's not like they're going for out-and-out realism, but I suppose they're treading a fine line if they're drawing caricatures which are inspired from real life people and situations. tbf not having seen it I really don't know how offensive it was.

Would you have had the same reaction if the show had an ensemble cast of all races portraying the same cliche characters?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 3, 2011)

White people were allowed to black up the moment Lenny Henry Whited up. Blame him. All his fault.


----------



## paolo (Jan 3, 2011)

teuchter said:


> If anyone wants to carry out an audit of the gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation/class of Little Britain characters they are listed here:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/characters/



And here's the main Come Fly With Me characters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/comeflywithme/characters.shtml


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 3, 2011)

Where's the liberal 'concern' at men who 'woman up' like Lily Savage?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

And how about black people maliciously portraying a baby?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> And how about black people maliciously portraying a baby?


given the hounding you gave the newbie for avoiding your q's, how about you answer mine eh?

funny guy, eh eh eh? *comedy accent begins*


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> given the hounding you gave the newbie for avoiding your q's, how about you answer mine eh?
> 
> funny guy, eh eh eh? *comedy accent begins*


 
Which question?

My previous user names were Johnny Canuck, and Johnny Canuck2.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3;11384540]Which question?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'd agree that if it's some bigot writing, whose only idea of some other group is stereotype, then they will not create a realistic portrayal. But if the story includes black people who happen to have negative traits - even if those have been associated with stereotypes in the past - then that isn't a problem. It's merely the creation of real characters in a work of fiction.


Does any stereotype have any credibility in your opinion i.e. if a knowing stereotype is used as a tool to demonstrate some wider point?


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 3, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Where's the liberal 'concern' at men who 'woman up' like Lily Savage?


 
Lily Savage is the wrong ethnicity. However, if she were a black, scouse woman...fucking out of order.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 3, 2011)

Is there also 'concern' at 'classing up' e.g. Posh actors playing working class characters?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 3, 2011)

Matt Lucas has always 'gentiled up' without 'concern' from white liberals. Why?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Does any stereotype have any credibility in your opinion i.e. if a knowing stereotype is used as a tool to demonstrate some wider point?


 
I'm not sure what you're asking: are you asking if any stereotypes have some basis in truth?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

I thought we'd left this sort of thing behind in 1979






Post irony, my arse.


----------



## junglevip (Jan 3, 2011)

If you dont like it dont watch it


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Where's the liberal 'concern' at men who 'woman up' like Lily Savage?



Yeah but cross-dressing has been around for donkeys. In fact, in Elizabethan times men played women on stage because women were forbidden from acting on stage. Whereas blacking up only began in the 19th century and was the product of colonialism.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

junglevip said:


> If you dont like it dont watch it


 
I'll just repeat this: post-irony, my arse.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

I see Canuck is up to his usual tricks. Quelle surprise.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 3, 2011)

A lot of Morris Dancers black up.. 






I am not sure why, but they claim it is traditional.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 3, 2011)

weltweit said:


> A lot of Morris Dancers black up..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you know the history of morris dancing?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

I suspect that practice is also colonial in origin.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 3, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> I suspect that practice is also colonial in origin.


 
Older than that I think.



> We may never be quite sure how Morris dancing originated. Most favour the theory that the word is a corruption of "Moorish", reflecting north African influences. Certainly, there are traditions of dancing with sticks in Egypt and also in Turkey, in which the white costumes and clashing sticks of the dancers are strikingly similar to Morris. In both cases, the dances are performed exclusively by men, as was once the case also with the English Morris.
> 
> "Moorish" itself appears to derive from "moresk", the English name for styles of dancing that developed in the 15th and 16th centuries in celebration of the expulsion of the Moorish (Moroccan) peoples from southern Europe, particularly Spain. This dance tradition percolated throughout Europe. In Spain, it was known as "morisco" or "moresca", in France "moresque", and "moresk" in England. In time, this became "moorish' or "morris". A foreign visitor to the court of Henry VIII refers to "Moorish games, which they call moresks", giving strong support to the



http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/morris-dancing/biography/morris-dancing-finished


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Older than that I think.



Morris dancing is but the practice of blacking up may be more recent


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 3, 2011)

No one knows for sure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Morris#Black Face


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

Hmmm, fascinating yet disturbing.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 3, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Do you know the history of morris dancing?


 
No  that is why I wrote: 



weltweit said:


> I am not sure why, but they claim it is traditional.


 
 


But I know someone who does it. When they told me about the blacking up, I said but #%splutter~ you can't do that in this day and age! to which they responded .. tradition ... non racial ... some other reason I have forgotten ...


----------



## IC3D (Jan 3, 2011)

She had so much more to give, Has anyone 'done Di' I wonder.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 3, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Morris dancing is but the practice of blacking up may be more recent


 
_May_ be... However as lots of the history points back to 'Morris' deriving from 'Moorish' I think the links aren't that hard to believe.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 3, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> _May_ be... However as lots of the history points back to 'Morris' deriving from 'Moorish' I think the links aren't that hard to believe.



Interesting. In which case, this form of blacking up had little to do with colonial attitudes (or even post -colonial attitudes).


----------



## Lakina (Jan 3, 2011)

come fly with me grows on you.

first episode i thought is was shit...

second episode was ok...

I'll be repeating the catch phrases soon


----------



## weltweit (Jan 3, 2011)

The Morris Dancer I know swears they are doing it right by blacking up, but I have never seen a troupe blacked up so they may be a minority.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 3, 2011)

Lakina said:


> come fly with me grows on you.
> 
> first episode i thought is was shit...
> 
> ...


 
Happy flighting!


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 3, 2011)

BTW was their portrayal of white male heterosexual immigration and customers officers as ignorant racists bigoted?


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 3, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> When I saw the title, I thought this was an ernesto thread..... sorry.
> 
> Blacking up doesn't sound too good; but as for showing blacks in less than sterling characterizations - I think that showing blacks in consistently uplifting and positive roles is another type of patronizing racism. It's like 'maybe if we always write them as good people, it will help them resist their natural urges to do bad things.'
> 
> It's bullshit. People of all races etc form a spectrum of behavior. To try to perform some sort of social engineering via manipulation like this is as insidious and wrong as consistently writing black characters to be stupid, evil, watermelon eating boneheads.


 
Precisely.

My take is this. Unless there is a specific reason for it, NO fictional character on stage or screen is of a particular race or gender until the role is cast. So what should be happening is that no decision is taken until that point, and the casting should be done on the basis of those things that are actually important for the role. That way you can get a genuine range of races and genders working with and against the stereotypes.

Unfortunately theatre, film and TV casting doesn't work that way. What actually happens most of the time is a lazy writer simply perpetuates a load of stereotyped nonsense, a lazy director reinforces this, and a lazy casting director simply typecasts a load of actors into reprising the last thing they were seen in. That's where the problem is. Not around the edges, but in the basic way that race and gender is dealt with.

The perfect example for me was a rehearsed reading of a new play that I put on some years back for an audience of various flavours of thesp. One character was a crap poet obsessed with Keats. Which could have been immensely boring as he had some quite long monologues where the humour needed to build up quite slowly. So I looked for an actor who had dance training and a talent for accents. So that the character could be somebody who moved rather oddly, and Scottish (because Keats in a Glasgwegian accent is so many kinds of wrong). The guy I found just happened to be black. After the reading everyone wanted to know why the black character was Scottish, why the black poet was obsessed by Keats, and so on. Because the normal situation is this, unless specified by the writer, all characters default to being white men. Which is, quite frankly, insane.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 3, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> i think what i meant to ask, but might've got sidetracked, is - is it ok for white actors, comedians, whatever... to 'black up'? I don't think any white actors have played Othello in high profile productions for a good three decades, and you never see Seller's 'comedy Indian' in "The Party" being shown on tv...  I thought that culturally we'd said 'no' to blacking (or 'asianing' up).


 
Michael Gambon did Othello around fifteen years ago. There have also been a couple of reverse casting versions with white Othellos in an otherwise black cast.

What has changed is that you can't get away with casting a white actor as Othello and claiming you couldn't find any good black actors to play the role, and Sellars' Indian schtick has ceased to be funny and now just looks like shallow (if affectionate) stereotyping.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 3, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Michael Gambon did Othello around fifteen years ago. There have also been a couple of reverse casting versions with white Othellos in an otherwise black cast.


 
a little googling tells me this was 20 yrs ago, and in scarborough (I wonder if a london production would've done so by then).  so - later than i thought, but surely no excuse for it.

of course, it's only 16 years since the late, lamented Pete Postlethwaite donned asian makeup to play Kobayashi in The Usual Suspects... which is odd.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

weltweit said:


> A lot of Morris Dancers black up..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That guy second from the left? More like 'raccooning up'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Older than that I think.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/morris-dancing/biography/morris-dancing-finished





> We may never be quite sure how Morris dancing originated. Most favour the theory that the word is a corruption of "Moorish", reflecting north African influences. Certainly, there are traditions of dancing with sticks in Egypt and also in Turkey, in which the white costumes and clashing sticks of the dancers are strikingly similar to Morris. In both cases, the dances are performed exclusively by men, as was once the case also with the English Morris.
> 
> "Moorish" itself appears to derive from "moresk", the English name for styles of dancing that developed in the 15th and 16th centuries in celebration of the expulsion of the Moorish (Moroccan) peoples from southern Europe, particularly Spain. This dance tradition percolated throughout Europe. In Spain, it was known as "morisco" or "moresca", in France "moresque", and "moresk" in England. In time, this became "moorish' or "morris". A foreign visitor to the court of Henry VIII refers to "Moorish games, which they call moresks", giving strong support to the



So it's painting faces black in celebration of the historical expulsion of blacks from europe?

Maybe in 500 years there'll be celebrations where people put on fake big noses and dance around in rags - to commemorate the Holocaust.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking: are you asking if any stereotypes have some basis in truth?


No, I'm asking whether you accept that using stereotypes as a means to demonstrate your argument could be acceptable as a means of progressing your argument?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

IC3D said:


> She had so much more to give, Has anyone 'done Di' I wonder.


 
That woman was a pathfinder in so many more ways than one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> No, I'm asking whether you accept that using stereotypes as a means to demonstrate your argument could be acceptable as a means of progressing your argument?



Could you try again?

Come on: third time lucky!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Could you try again?
> 
> Come on: third time lucky!


Ok, when garf used nigger as a term of reference in a previous argument, you went off your trolley.

lately, a scottish comic has aroused similar anger through using similar terms basically.

i'm asking, across the piece, when does too much become not enough?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Ok, when garf used nigger as a term of reference in a previous argument, you went off your trolley.
> 
> lately, a scottish comic has aroused similar anger through using similar terms basically.
> 
> i'm asking, across the piece, when does too much become not enough?



Used it as a 'term of reference'? 

What you're trying to do is shoehorn that occurrence into this discussion; but it doesn't fit.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Ok, when garf used nigger as a term of reference in a previous argument, you went off your trolley.
> 
> lately, a scottish comic has aroused similar anger through using similar terms basically.
> 
> i'm asking, across the piece, when does too much become not enough?


But do explain: how does either calling someone a nigger, or talking about niggers, relate in any way to the presentation of black characters with negative traits, in a work of fiction?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Used it as a 'term of reference'?
> 
> What you're trying to do is shoehorn that occurrence into this discussion; but it doesn't fit.


I'm sorry but I think it does tbh. All discussions take place within a context.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> But do explain: how does either calling someone a nigger, or talking about niggers, relate in any way to the presentation of black characters with negative traits, in a work of fiction?


It wasn't used that way, it was used to imply that your attitude bred similar prejudicial attitudes in other people. It's really that simple.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> It wasn't used that way, it was used to imply that your attitude bred similar prejudicial attitudes in other people. It's really that simple.


 
My attitude to what?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm not wanting a row, I'm interested in what you think about this


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> My attitude to what?


Israel. Palestine. Starters for 10 maybe.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Israel. Palestine. Starters for 10 maybe.


 


> your attitude bred similar prejudicial attitudes in other people.


My attitude toward israel and palestine bred what sort of prejudicial attitudes in other people?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> My attitude toward israel and palestine bred what sort of prejudicial attitudes in other people?


nah


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> nah


 
You brought this up: I'm assuming that you're able to enunciate what it is that you're thinking?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

laters jc3


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)




----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


>


that is awful.

is that what you pass your spare time doing?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> that is awful.
> 
> is that what you pass your spare time doing?


 
No: most of my time is spent trying to figure out what these unintelligible utterances emitting from you are actually all about.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

you're gwan d-b innit?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Well, this _was _an interesting topic of discussion...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

did you like little britain jc?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> did you like little britain jc?


 
I did, actually.

Now, why don't you go to bed: it's going to be a tough day at work tomorrow.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 4, 2011)

i don't go back til thursday, i'm here for hours of mutual torment i'm afraid


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2011)

*Little Britain is a bag of shite*

I have had the arse with this collection of public school wankers for year.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 4, 2011)

Yep, post-ironic bollocks is what it is. The thing with so-called "post-irony" is that is assumes that irony is dead and this bag of shite has come along to replace it. Truth be told, post-irony is a means of wriggling out of uncomfortable questions about one's true intentions.


----------



## IMR (Jan 4, 2011)

I wonder whether Walliams and Lucas will ever get round to parodying the kind of people who inhabit their social circles.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 4, 2011)

IMR said:


> I wonder whether Walliams and Lucas will ever get round to parodying the kind of *people who inhabit their social circles*.


 
Heh! 

I often wonder this about the majority of anthropologists also. I think it would be/is a much more interesting thing for both anthropologists and comedians to do.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 4, 2011)

Lucas and Walliams blacked up in Little Britain, remember the two very fat women? ..


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2011)

It's just 'shock' comedy. It's what some writers resort to when they lack any kind of wit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2011)

it isn't though- as mentioned it builds on Fast Show, which was funny for many reasons, and attempts to adopt the catchphrase/situation lols fast show did with notes of absurdity and wit. These two expect us to laugh cos myffanwy turns up at the pub dressed in leather. Ho Ho it is a gay man in a small welsh village, observe my sides splitting at the hilarity that ensues.

I watched the prg under question while three sheets to the wind and can only remember a badly blacked up jamacain character who was, get this it is so funny, bang on the fruit machines.


----------



## stupid dogbot (Jan 4, 2011)

Have these guys _ever_ been funny?


----------



## Balbi (Jan 4, 2011)

Little Britain - a collection of lazy, borderline offensive, unfunny, shit. When Littlejohn uses your comic character to illustrate his point, you fail.

Come Fly With Me - same shit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2011)

I laughed when adult baby was George Daws. I was 14 and laughed at most of shooting stars trying too hard comedy.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 5, 2011)

weltweit said:


> Lucas and Walliams blacked up in Little Britain, remember the two very fat women? ..



<shrugs> So what?


----------



## brianx (Jan 6, 2011)

That was so bad, I didn't crack a grin. But Not Going Out that followed was great "like an episode of The Wire starring Derek Nimo".


----------



## weltweit (Jan 6, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> <shrugs> So what?


 
Just that for them, this is not new.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 10, 2020)

Little Britain finally pulled for blackface. I never even realised it did that. It was fucking shit so I never watched enough. 






						Little Britain removed from BBC iPlayer, Netflix and BritBox due to use of blackface | TV comedy | The Guardian
					

BBC says that ‘times have changed’ as it removes the Matt Lucas and David Walliams sketch show from its streaming service




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Epona (Jun 10, 2020)

I was told earlier today that there are some news stories going around that it had been pulled for this reason, but in reality hasn't been on those streaming services since November last year, nothing to do with what is going on now, just some right wingers trying to make out that "the PC crowd got it taken down" type bs.

I don't know how true that is btw, just reporting that I heard earlier that I should take stories about it with a pinch of salt.

Personally I always hated the show, tried it for a few minutes once and thought this isn't on, so changed channel. (And essentially when or how it got taken down comes secondary to my feeling of "Fucking Finally" about it.)


----------



## maomao (Jun 10, 2020)

Should be pulled anyway. That programme was a disgrace.


----------



## andysays (Jun 10, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Little Britain finally pulled for blackface. I never even realised it did that. It was fucking shit so I never watched enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is "times have changed" perhaps the shittest excuse* ever? Times haven't really changed in the last ten years, it was just as offensive and objectionable when it was first shown as it would be now.

* excuse for making and showing it in the first place, not for deciding not to show it any more


----------



## Mumbles274 (Jun 10, 2020)

"we wouldn't make that programme now" 

Shouldn't have fucking made it then!


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jun 10, 2020)

Weren't little britain making racist jokes (though refraining from blackface, but keeping in their usual anti-working class, misogynistic, transphobic, and ableist stuff) on a BBC children in need thing, like 6 weeks ago?
Not funny, never has been.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jun 10, 2020)

It was an awful programme at the time so no loss that it's been pulled.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 10, 2020)

andysays said:


> Is "times have changed" perhaps the shittest excuse* ever? Times haven't really changed in the last ten years, it was just as offensive and objectionable when it was first shown as it would be now.
> 
> * excuse for making and showing it in the first place, not for deciding not to show it any more


It doesn't excuse making it back then, but times have changed in what's "generally" considered acceptable.

In fact it's quite surprising how quickly things have changed, really, in the past 10-20 years. I am quite commonly watching stuff from only 10 years ago and thinking that it would be unlikely that certain things would be portrayed in that way now.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

Leigh Francis has been out and about apologising for Bo Selecta too.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 10, 2020)

They also bolstered a lot of the anti welfare state rhetoric with their Lou and Andy sketches.


----------



## freakydave (Jun 10, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It doesn't excuse making it back then, but times have changed in what's "generally" considered acceptable.
> 
> In fact it's quite surprising how quickly things have changed, really, in the past 10-20 years. I am quite commonly watching stuff from only 10 years ago and thinking that it would be unlikely that certain things would be portrayed in that way now.



That is the most interesting thing for me.

My first reaction about this and the Bo Selecta thing was that it was only about a decade ago and that times haven't really changed that much, but there is a lot of stuff from then that just wouldn't be allowed on TV now.
It's crazy watching The Simpsons from back when it was good, and a lot of the jokes in that wouldn't be allowed on TV now

I enjoyed Bo Selecta and thought that the whole thing was so silly I didn't think about the blackface thing
Little Britain I never liked because it was so repetitive and dumb


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 10, 2020)

Shit program. I notice the BBC still have "Ali G" content online, maybe that will be next.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 10, 2020)

crossthebreeze said:


> Weren't little britain making racist jokes (though refraining from blackface, but keeping in their usual anti-working class, misogynistic, transphobic, and ableist stuff) on a BBC children in need thing, like 6 weeks ago?
> Not funny, never has been.



I basically never liked Little Britain because it was so often cruel and punching downward.
If you can totally withdraw sympathy from certain parties it was probably funny, but that was so often the nub of the joke.

edit:  I found "computer says no" woman and the hypnotist fairly amusing, now I think back, but there was so much of the other stuff that it was unwatchable.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Shit program. I notice the BBC still have "Ali G" content online, maybe that will be next.



The character Ali G pretended to be black, but did not black up, just imagined in his own mind that he was black, when patently he was not. There’s nothing really wrong with that, whether you find it funny or not.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 10, 2020)

8ball said:


> I basically never liked Little Britain because it was so often cruel and punching downward.



I know for a fact Moses the airport concierge was based on a real person who took it very badly.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The character Ali G pretended to be black, but did not black up, just imagined in his own mind that he was black, when patently he was not. There’s nothing really wrong with that, whether you find it funny or not.



It's just "ironic" racism. The lack of makeup doesn't really doesn't make it ok.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> It's just "ironic" racism. The lack of makeup doesn't really doesn't make it ok.



I disagree.


----------



## strung out (Jun 10, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> It's just "ironic" racism. The lack of makeup doesn't really doesn't make it ok.


He's taking the piss out of white kids appropriating their idea of black culture.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 10, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Little Britain finally pulled for blackface. I never even realised it did that. It was fucking shit so I never watched enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am really glad it has been pulled. I think it crossed the line in several ways, not just the blackface. Always hated it.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The character Ali G pretended to be black, but did not black up, just imagined in his own mind that he was black, when patently he was not. There’s nothing really wrong with that, whether you find it funny or not.



The character Ali G was possibly racially ambiguous tbf.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

8ball said:


> The character Ali G was possibly racially ambiguous tbf.



If you call it out you’re an anti-Semite.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 10, 2020)

strung out said:


> He's taking the piss out of white kids appropriating their idea of black culture.



That's an excuse. Look at his other characters. Was Borat taking the piss out of white kids appropriating Kazakhstani culture, or was it just taking the piss out of Kazakhstanis?


----------



## 8ball (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you call it out you’re an anti-Semite.



I'm not quite getting your post.
But Ali G quite possibly had some North African heritage going on to my not-totally-reliable eye.  He could say "is it because I is black" and they would react as if the term was not totally ridiculous.  Ed Sheeran would not have carried that off.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 10, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> That's an excuse. Look at his other characters. Was Borat taking the piss out of white kids appropriating Kazakhstanian culture, or was it just taking the piss out of Kazakhstanis?



No, because Borat was not appropriating any culture.  Borat was a Kazakhstanian character and could be as inaccurate as you like due to Westerner's ignorance of other cultures.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

8ball said:


> I'm not quite getting your post.
> But Ali G quite possibly had some North African heritage going on to my not-totally-reliable eye.  He could say "is it because I is black" and they would react as if the term was not totally ridiculous.  Ed Sheeran would not have carried that off.



Sacha Baron Cohen played Ali G. Not North African..


----------



## 8ball (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sacha Baron Cohen played Ali G. Not North African..



I know he's _not_ North African. 

A lot of people in this country would consider him "not white", though.  I know my Dad would.  The character plays on this sort of stuff.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

8ball said:


> I know he's _not_ North African.



Ah yeah  

That part was just playing on the inherent racism of others...


----------



## 8ball (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Ah yeah
> 
> That part was just playing on the inherent racism of others...



Also the not wanting to give offence in ambiguous circumstances, which is where it skates close to being rather unfair.  That's why it was so nice when Tony Benn called him out on what the real problems with his behaviour were.


----------



## Gromit (Jun 11, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> That's an excuse. Look at his other characters. Was Borat taking the piss out of white kids appropriating Kazakhstani culture, or was it just taking the piss out of Kazakhstanis?


Neither.

Borat was a vehicle for ripping the piss out of ignorant Americans. I’d hate to think that a British person would believe for one minute his deliberately outlandish portrayal of a backward foreigner. The fact his targets did is the whole point.
Then deliberately horrifying these people was the penance for their ignorance that we (the not ignorant) got to enjoy.


----------



## kittyP (Jun 11, 2020)

.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 11, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> They also bolstered a lot of the anti welfare state rhetoric with their Lou and Andy sketches.



And the Thai character, Ting Tong, was a horrible stereotype. I'd hear grown men crack on about it in the pub, sometimes


----------



## [62] (Jun 11, 2020)

Netflix pulls The Mighty Boosh and The League of Gentlemen over blackface
					

Critics call removal of shows from streaming service ‘arbitrary gesture’ that does little to combat racism




					www.google.co.uk
				




I would suggest the two characters in the above are a completely different kettle of fish to Little Britain's blackface. The Spirit of Jazz is more of a voodoo character brought to life whilst Papa Lazarou is a composite of folk devils.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 11, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> They also bolstered a lot of the anti welfare state rhetoric with their Lou and Andy sketches.


Along with Vicky Pollard, who was often cited by rightwing journalists and I bet politicians too.


----------

