# Fatality and critical injuries at Asake concert crush at the Brixton Academy



## DietCokeGirl (Dec 16, 2022)

Just got home to find a police cordon, with large number of police vans and ambulances around the academy. Got escorted through by a pc to get home and clearly from all the debris and people being treated something big happened - checked twitter and apparently there was a crush/mass of people pushing to get in without tickets and allegedly 2 people died which seems shocking and unimaginable at such an established venue. Really hoping its not true and everyone got home safely


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## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 16, 2022)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Just got home to find a police cordon, with large number of police vans and ambulances around the academy. Got escorted through by a pc to get home and clearly from all the debris and people being treated something big happened - checked twitter and apparently there was a crush/mass of people pushing to get in without tickets and allegedly 2 people died which seems shocking and unimaginable at such an established venue. Really hoping its not true and everyone got home safely


Was just coming to see if anyone had any info as I just drove past this on the way back from work.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> Was just coming to see if anyone had any info as I just drove past this on the way back from work.


I'm not seeing any confirmed reports of fatalities but there was some grim scenes of people trying to bum rush the venue on Twitter plus loads of shocking racism


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

_








						Four critical as Asake gig cancelled after fans rush gates sparking safety fears
					

Asake fans were left outraged after a show in London was cancelled part way through after '3,000 fans' tried to force entry into the venue, leaving four people in a critical condition




					www.mirror.co.uk
				



_


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 16, 2022)

This is grim. The videos are absolute carnage, looks like it's a good job The Police were on hand to back up the security, had all those without tickets got in there would have likely been a massive crush down the front.


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## andysays (Dec 16, 2022)

Latest from BBC

Brixton Asake gig: Four in critical condition after incident at O2 Academy​


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## Ax^ (Dec 16, 2022)

Grim shit but trying to blame the venue :/


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## xsunnysuex (Dec 16, 2022)

I could see something big was occurring when I walked home from the station last night. 😣


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## technical (Dec 16, 2022)

That's really shocking. Hope everyone's alright.


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

The Academy only has one fixture before 31st December - this Saturday 17th December.
Be interesting to see how the Police and Lambeth Licensing react.
Another concert on 19th December was already postponed.
Both 17th December and the 31st December New Year do are late start, with a 3 am "curfew"

Historically when there is "disorder" the Police react by imposing a ban, don't they?

The Mirror is re-writing their account as I write this with reaction coming in the politicians, but this is interesting I thought
"Metropolitan Police Gold Commander Ade Adelekan urged people to "be sensible about what they share" on social media and "not to post material that will be upsetting to those affected by this incident".


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 16, 2022)

xsunnysuex said:


> I could see something big was occurring when I walked home from the station last night. 😣



This post twice criticises Brixton Academy security, I wondering in what way security were at fault here for hundreds of people violently forcing their way into the venue when it successfully hosts sold out events several times a week for many years, including i believe performances by the same artist in the preceding days.


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## cuppa tee (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> The Academy only has one fixture before 31st December - this Saturday 17th December.
> Be interesting to see how the Police and Lambeth Licen react.
> Another concert on 19th December was already postponed.
> Both 17th December and the 31st December New Year do are late start, with a 3 am "curfew"
> ...



it was apparent from a lot of twitter posts at the time tickets went on sale that this particular event
was viewed by punters as potentially problematic, with many predicting exactly last nights outcome
the artist in question is regarded as the rising star of his genre,
the buzz suggested a bigger more secure venue would be better.suited to an artist of this stature
they had already played two nights of their residency with _afaik_ no issues...twitter is not well known for accuracy but
the #brixton feed last night was full of lurid accounts of the event.

e2a.... artist statement


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

cuppa tee said:


> it was apparent from a lot of twitter posts at the time tickets went on sale that this particular event
> was viewed by punters as potentially problematic, with many predicting exactly last nights outcome
> the artist in question is regarded as the rising star of his genre,
> the buzz suggested a bigger more secure venue would be better.suited
> ...


Looks like Buzz were right (in hindsight?) - though it's a bit of bad luck after 2 orderly days this then happens. 
I know nothing of the genre, but there was one intriguing Tweet (for me) said something like "Haven't they learned anything from Astroworld?" Not having heard of Astroworld I looked it up








						Astroworld Festival crowd crush - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Ax^ (Dec 16, 2022)

don't think this artist had actively promoted breaking into his events like the guy who thought up astroworld


I don't know the genre enough to say yes or no to thqt


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## cuppa tee (Dec 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> don't think this artist had actively promoted breaking into his events like the guy who thought up astroworld
> 
> 
> I don't know the genre enough to say yes or no to thqt



dont think anyone promoted rushing the doors but posters who are fans predicted on twitter this would happen...
...some also said they would try to bust in, so maybe thiings took on a kind of momentum...for context maybe check this from 1962









						Was this the first Beatles riot?
					

A  photo blog about fans of the Beatles who have met them in person.




					www.meetthebeatlesforreal.com
				




e2a.... when i referred to the  buzz i was meant that generically rather than our esteemed local news site CH1


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## Smick (Dec 16, 2022)

There's not much a venue can do when, as reported, 1,000 people without tickets show up.


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## cuppa tee (Dec 16, 2022)

Smick said:


> There's not much a venue can do when, as reported, 1,000 people without tickets show up.



....twitter last night saaid there was a lot of forgeries in circulation.


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## Mrs Miggins (Dec 16, 2022)

cuppa tee said:


> dont think anyone promoted rushing the doors but posters who are fans predicted on twitter this would happen...


Why? What do they hope to achieve? They aren't going to be let in just because they turn up.

Maybe I'm too old and out of touch but it just seems like shitty behaviour.


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## Ax^ (Dec 16, 2022)

cuppa tee said:


> dont think anyone promoted rushing the doors but posters who are fans predicted on twitter this would happen...
> ...some also said they would try to bust in, so maybe thiings took on a kind of momentum...for context maybe check this from 1962
> 
> 
> ...



Travis Scott who organised astroworld had a bit of history of saying silly things

Travis Scott has long history of encouraging reckless behavior at his concerts


not last night's act


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## cuppa tee (Dec 16, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Why? What do they hope to achieve? They aren't going to be let in just because they turn up.
> 
> Maybe I'm too old and out of touch but it just seems like shitty behaviour.



...i agree, but its being reported there were a lot of forgeries floating about, guessing these were sold to mugs via back channels...thats not to say some peeps didnt just rock up with the intention of forcing entry...


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Why? What do they hope to achieve? They aren't going to be let in just because they turn up.
> 
> Maybe I'm too old and out of touch but it just seems like shitty behaviour.


Radio 4 World at One just had a report.
Mentioned video showing white police manhandling a black woman - pushing her down the steps.
And an anonymous eyewitness was interviewed for the R4 programme - he said
- a bit odd sending white police to sort out a predominantly black event - in Brixton
[where had he been all these years when they talk about police recruitment]
He also said (I think) that the woman concerned had seemed to curse the police
then he said on looking at the video this morning he thought it looked like the police started it with her

All a bit confused


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Radio 4 World at One just had a report.
> Mentioned video showing white police manhandling a black woman - pushing her down the steps.
> And an anonymous eyewitness was interviewed for the R4 programme - he said
> - a bit odd sending white police to sort out a predominantly black event - in Brixton
> ...


my take on it was she tried to force through the Police line at the entrance who had been called by the venue to protect it from being stormed by people without tickets (whether she had one or not is unclear). At that point, it is actually their job to repel anyone from getting past them (no matter what race or sex), by force if necessary, which they did. Try that in virtually any other country in the world and wouldnt just be a push, it would be a baton around the head.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

BBC latest



> *Three people remain in a critical condition after being injured in a crush at a gig at the Brixton O2 Academy that left several hurt.*
> Police were called on Thursday night to the show at the south London venue by Afro-pop singer Asake and the Met said the gig was abandoned part-way through.
> One witness estimated 1,000 people turned up to the gig without tickets.
> One of the crush victims said: "I couldn't breathe and I completely passed out. I thought I was dead."
> The woman, who was taken to hospital with suspected internal bleeding, said: "I took my last breath and I could not get any more oxygen. I was so scared."











						Brixton Academy: Three critically hurt in Asake concert crush
					

A woman says she feared for her life after a crush at a gig where three people were critically hurt.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

The fuckers bum rushing the venue



> The woman, who spoke to press agency UKNIP after being discharged from hospital, said: "I was just queuing up to give them my ticket and then the crowd out here was insane, they just came and pushed and I just fell down.
> "I was trying to get up, people were stepping on my head, all over me. I had more than 10 people on top of me.
> "A man pulled me out so when I woke up I was in the back of the ambulance."


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## sparkybird (Dec 16, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Why? What do they hope to achieve? They aren't going to be let in just because they turn up.
> 
> Maybe I'm too old and out of touch but it just seems like shitty behaviour.


I guess if you had (or thought you had) a genuine ticket you would probably try to argue with the doorstaff that they should let you in. The venue was already full, so many already in would have got in on fake tickets.
It's all so awful 
The blame lies squarely with the pieces of shit that sold the fake tickets for their own greed.


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## Plumdaff (Dec 16, 2022)

Not an ideal location to bring in the preventative measures used at very large venues - street closures would be needed to do ticket checks further etc. Must have been frightening to be caught up in. Fucking tout wankers.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

sparkybird said:


> I guess if you had (or thought you had) a genuine ticket you would probably try to argue with the doorstaff that they should let you in. The venue was already full, so many already in would have got in on fake tickets.
> It's all so awful
> The blame lies squarely with the pieces of shit that sold the fake tickets for their own greed.


And the people pushing a woman to the ground to be trampled on and hospitalised as she tried to show her ticket.


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

I think blaming the crowd for the failure of crowd control measures is probably something that should be avoided, considering the history of that kind of thing


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Not an ideal location to bring in the preventative measures used at very large venues - street closures would be needed to do ticket checks further etc. Must have been frightening to be caught up in. Fucking tout wankers.


Was thinking this. I went to the Printworks in Southwark in the summer. They have ample space for marshalling attendees - but if something did happen there extremely difficult for emergency services to get in.


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## Smick (Dec 16, 2022)

sparkybird said:


> The blame lies squarely with the pieces of shit that sold the fake tickets for their own greed.


Even those who sold genuine tickets will now get a refund for a cancelled show and those who paid them will get nothing back.

Touts of all sorts are scum of the earth.


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## pbsmooth (Dec 16, 2022)

I imagine lots of people turned up without tickets. it's sort of become more of a thing again trying to get in for free - see Wireless


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## Smick (Dec 16, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Not an ideal location to bring in the preventative measures used at very large venues - street closures would be needed to do ticket checks further etc. Must have been frightening to be caught up in. Fucking tout wankers.


I'd hate to see the venue lost over something like this. While, for the most part, the place is a corporate shithole, at least it isn't the o2.


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## A380 (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Radio 4 World at One just had a report.
> Mentioned video showing white police manhandling a black woman - pushing her down the steps.
> And an anonymous eyewitness was interviewed for the R4 programme - he said
> - a bit odd sending white police to sort out a predominantly black event - in Brixton
> ...



Yes because when you have an incipient crowd disaster you have loads of time to speak quietly and to politely argue and explain  as is needed  to everyone still trying to get into the venue and add to the pressure building up through the crowd exacerbating the crush at the front.  

They know how to respond because their friend is doing A level law


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## Petcha (Dec 16, 2022)

I've seen a few people on social media attempting to blame the cops. As much as I despise the Met, I don't think the blame can be placed on them this time.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I think blaming the crowd for the failure of crowd control measures is probably something that should be avoided, considering the history of that kind of thing


There's a lot of elements that caused this fuckup and lots of blame to apportion, but if you think those people who pushed over and trampled on people when they were trying to show their tickets on the door are totally blameless, I'm going to disagree with you.


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## Petcha (Dec 16, 2022)

It's a bit fucking weird to single out the race of the cops who were there as well. Is there a specialist Nigerian unit or something?


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## A380 (Dec 16, 2022)

Petcha said:


> It's a bit fucking weird to single out the race of the cops who were there as well. Is there a specialist Nigerian unit or something?


It's a valid tactic to achieve  a number of objectives. 

(Just because one might not agree with the objectives doesn't mean the tactics aren't effective.)


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 16, 2022)

Petcha said:


> It's a bit fucking weird to single out the race of the cops who were there as well. Is there a specialist Nigerian unit or something?


The 'Gold Commander' (whatever that means, i assume it means the top guy in charge) was black, maybe it would have been fine if he had pushed the woman trying to force her way into the venue, as they had a more similar skin pigment.

Had the Police not stepped in to help the overwhelmed bouncers, there would have been people crushed up against the barriers down the front, and we would probably be discussing deaths today, rather than injuries.


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## A380 (Dec 16, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> The 'Gold Commander' (whatever that means, i assume it means the top guy in charge) was black, maybe it would have been fine if he had pushed the woman trying to force her way into the venue, as they had a more similar skin pigment.
> 
> Had the Police not stepped in to help the overwhelmed bouncers, there would have been people crushed up against the barriers down the front, and we would probably be discussing deaths today, rather than injuries.


Gold commander was the old money name for  the event or incident strategic commander in any blue light service, NHS, local authority or similar organisation. Almost everyone still uses the term even though it's out of date.

An organisation's strategic commander sets the over all strategic objectives and allocates resources (normally in conjunction with other agencies'   strategic commanders. This would normally be done in a strategic command or coordination group SCG.)

Think the police stuff is probably a derail for this thread. An awful event for people looking to have a great night out with friends and were injured and traumatised instead. For some their lives may not be the same again.


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

editor said:


> those people who pushed over and trampled on people when they were trying to show their tickets on the door


This is what happens at all crowd crush events. If there's sufficient crowd control measures in place there's no need to start blaming people who're trying to get out of the way of a crush / whatever


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## pbsmooth (Dec 16, 2022)

it's not so much 'the crowd' as people trying to get in without tickets. it doesn't look like a badly-managed queue,


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

I've tried to get in to things without a ticket before, it's hardly a new and novel thing for a venue to cope with. It's one of the many things adequate crowd control measures should anticipate and deal with isn't it?


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

seriously though. _fans without tickets rushing the gates. _again.


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I've tried to get in to things without a ticket before, it's hardly a new and novel thing for a venue to cope with. It's one of the many things adequate crowd control measures should anticipate and deal with isn't it?


Same, i try to sneak, blag or pay/bribe my way in though. Sometimes I succeed, but sometimes I dont. I wouldnt however smash the doors, trample people, give the staff a frightening and stressful night, and ultimately get the gig pulled for everyone.


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## A380 (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I've tried to get in to things without a ticket before, it's hardly a new and novel thing for a venue to cope with. It's one of the many things adequate crowd control measures should anticipate and deal with isn't it?


Just out of interest,  how do you decide what margin of error the organisers and fire service have applied to calculate the safe capacity of the venue, and what do you do to estimate the total number of other people who will also attempt to get in unticketed?

I mean, you must have those two pieces of information to be able to ensure that this is just a safe way of sticking it to the venue and not the actions of a selfish cunt prepared to put other people’s lives at risk for a cheap night out.


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## Mrs Miggins (Dec 16, 2022)

Has anything like this happened at the Academy before? There's always queue barriers and sometimes the queue goes right around the block.

I've not seen a big crowd outside the front doors like that before but of course I haven't been to every gig there and don't know if it's happened before. 

How could it have been anticipated if it hasn't happened before? Should they have taken more notice of social media if, as someone said earlier, there were tweets etc. about this happening.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 16, 2022)

If only there was a way for a bunch of selfish fucking arseholes without tickets to not turn up to a venue and try to storm the doors.


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

A380 said:


> Just out of interest,  how do you decide what margin of error the organisers and fire service have applied to calculate the safe capacity of the venue, and what do you do to estimate the total number of other people who will also attempt to get in unticked?
> 
> I mean, you must have those two pieces of information to be able to ensure that this is just a safe way of sticking it to the venue and not the actions of a selfish cunt prepared to put other people’s lives at risk for a cheap night out.


I dispute the idea that someone having a level go at hopping into something free is a selfish cunt prepared to put other people's lives at risk for a cheap night out. That's the main thrust of my posts on this thread ffs.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I dispute the idea that someone having a level go at hopping into something free is a selfish cunt prepared to put other people's lives at risk for a cheap night out.


What the fuck else are they then?

Watch the videos, this isn’t one or two people trying to sneak in a back door or come up with some yarn to blag it past a bouncer.


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## cuppa tee (Dec 16, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Has anything like this happened at the Academy before? There's always queue barriers and sometimes the queue goes right around the block.
> 
> I've not seen a big crowd outside the front doors like that before but of course I haven't been to every gig there and don't know if it's happened before.
> 
> How could it have been anticipated if it hasn't happened before? Should they have taken more notice of social media if, as someone said earlier, there were tweets etc. about this happening.



there were the well reported street shenanigans that time madonna  appeared at the academy...
e2a...those tweets were mostly  but not all from fans who were worried at the possiblity...


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## pesh (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I dispute the idea that someone having a level go at hopping into something free is a selfish cunt prepared to put other people's lives at risk for a cheap night out. That's the main thrust of my posts on this thread ffs.


would you agree that someone intending to have a level go at hopping into something free who arrives at the venue and sees 1000 other people have had the same idea and are now trying to steam the doors and decides to join in rather than fucking off somewhere else is a selfish cunt prepared to put other people's lives at risk for a cheap night out?


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## DJWrongspeed (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> The Academy only has one fixture before 31st December - this Saturday 17th December.
> Be interesting to see how the Police and Lambeth Licensing react.
> Another concert on 19th December was already postponed.
> Both 17th December and the 31st December New Year do are late start, with a 3 am "curfew"
> ...


if you go back years the police had a stand off with punks back in '87 - Conflict riot


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

pesh said:


> would you agree that someone intending to have a level go at hopping into something free who arrives at the venue and sees 1000 other people have had the same idea and are now trying to steam the doors and decides to join in rather than fucking off somewhere else is a selfish cunt prepared to put other people's lives at risk for a cheap night out?


It's mostly not very obvious when a crowd is dangerously packed until you're actually in the dangerously packed bit.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> This is what happens at all crowd crush events. If there's sufficient crowd control measures in place there's no need to start blaming people who're trying to get out of the way of a crush / whatever


Except some people weren't trying to 'get out of the way of the crush.'   Some were actively charging in, knocking ticket holders over and potentially causing very serious injury to those people ahead of them.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I've tried to get in to things without a ticket before, it's hardly a new and novel thing for a venue to cope with. It's one of the many things adequate crowd control measures should anticipate and deal with isn't it?


I've never knocked people over and then trampled all over them when they're lying helpless on the floor. How about you?


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

editor said:


> I've never knocked people over and then trampled all over them when they're lying helpless on the floor. How about you?


I've never been in a dangerous crush that's resulted in a number of people critically injured in hospital. I'd like to think I wouldn't knock anyone over or trample them when trying to escape from something like that, but who knows. 

Either way, some people in crowds do behave badly. That's one of the things crowd control measures are supposed to anticipate and control.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> I've never been in a dangerous crush that's resulted in a number of people critically injured in hospital. I'd like to think I wouldn't knock anyone over or trample them when trying to escape from something like that, but who knows.
> 
> Either way, some people in crowds do behave badly. That's one of the things crowd control measures are supposed to anticipate and control.


But they WEREN'T escaping. They were charging IN to the venue.


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

editor said:


> But they WEREN'T escaping. They were charging IN to the venue.


After being in a dangerous crush outside it.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

killer b said:


> After being in a dangerous crush outside it.



So if you found yourself in the middle of an open street surrounded by people, your best course of action would be to immediately run to the narrow doors of a venue where ticketless fans are creating a dangerous crush by charging the door staff rather than just turning around and leaving the area? Yeah, right.


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## killer b (Dec 16, 2022)

what are you on about.


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## Plumdaff (Dec 16, 2022)

By the time you're in a dangerous crush you generally have no power whatsoever where you go. 

Weren't there lots of people with fake tickets? They didn't know, they sincerely thought they were going to get in.


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## editor (Dec 16, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Weren't there lots of people with fake tickets? They didn't know, they sincerely thought they were going to get in.


AFAIK, there has been no evidence offered yet about the amount of 'fake tickets' that were in circulation, so it could be a few or it could be hundreds.


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## spitfire (Dec 16, 2022)

Most concert venues below stadium size have little or no control beyond the pavement directly outside, most venues don't even have official control over the pavement, only to the front door. In fact back in my days on the door at Mass we were told that anything happening beyond the front door was to be intervened in only at our own risk (legal and physical) and the venue insurance would not cover anybody beyond that point.

To stop this sort of thing happening at the Academy they would need a ticket filtration system set up, probably somewhere near the Beehive and the Stockwell end of the skatepark, effectively closing off large parts of central Brixton.

There is very little they can do in the event of a large crowd of people gathering and deciding to rush the doors. 

Maybe it could have been handled better or more quickly on the night, sure we will find out, but a "crowd control system" for this would be very difficult in Brixton.


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> if you go back years the police had a stand off with punks back in '87 - Conflict riot


Don't remember that - but I remember a moral panic concerning the Beastie Boys, which seemed to pass off peacefully.
Maybe the Beasties were before this?


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## Mr paulee (Dec 16, 2022)

2ManyDJs postpone Brixton gig following Asake crowd crush
					

The Belgian duo said it was with ‘pain in their hearts’ to call off the show after eight people were taken to hospital following a crowd surge at the venue on Thursday




					www.standard.co.uk
				



2ManyDj's gig has been cancelled which was on for tomorrow night.


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

345 still on diversion via Acre Lane. I bet they pull the New Year's eve gig.


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## ddraig (Dec 16, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> if you go back years the police had a stand off with punks back in '87 - Conflict riot


amazing read, thanks


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## DaphneM (Dec 16, 2022)

The science of crowds is quite interesting









						Behaviour and Mechanics of Crowd Crush Disasters - RISK FRONTIERS
					

Understand the Behaviour and Mechanics of Crowd Crush Disasters and the likelihood of the risk for mass events.




					riskfrontiers.com


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## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

Cllr Mahamed Hashi was on the BBC1 local news at 6.30 pm.
He said "the community has been through much worse" - I think I'm quoting correctly.
I would have thought he should have been saying that the council - as the licensing authority - will be examining the systems in place for an event which was the culmination of 3 sell-out shows. It must cross their minds that dealing with 10,000 fans in a built up area with heavy traffic at all times has risks.
They've has other events like this recently - eg The Prodigy - 3 nights in July. Sigur Ros was on 10th/11th November - and massively busy.
I appreciate O2 Academies have had lean times due to covid, but they need to review their policy of packing them in in the Brixron venue.

Mohamad Hashi on again on Channel 4 News, with Solomon Smith. Solomon blaming ticket re-sellers.
Has he got a point? I assume if you got an online ticket it would be possible to resell multiple copies.
On the other hand why was there no trouble on 13th and 14th December?

Is Lambeth Licensing capable of mounting an enquiry?

Answers please to: licensing@lambeth.gov.uk


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## thebackrow (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Cllr Mahamed Hashi was on the BBC1 local news at 6.30 pm.
> He said "the community has been through much worse" - I think I'm quoting correctly.
> I would have thought he should have been saying that the council - as the licensing authority - will be examining the systems in place for an event which was the culmination of 3 sell-out shows. It must cross their minds that dealing with 10,000 fans in a built up area with heavy traffic at all times has risks.
> They've has other events like this recently - eg The Prodigy - 3 nights in July. Sigur Ros was on 10th/11th November - and massively busy.
> ...


LCD Soundsystem did a week long, sold out, residency at the start of July. I went on the last night and it was no different to any other sold out gig I’ve been to there - the queue was right down the side and back towards the skatepark. No issues.

The tightest crowd is getting out through the doors at the end. Pre Covid most gigs sold out long before the night - a capacity crowd there is not an issue in itself.

I had tickets to 2ManyDjs and just had to message a friend who’s travelling over from Dublin for the weekend…


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## Supine (Dec 16, 2022)

Agreed. I’ve been to a few sold out gigs there. It was really well organised and no bother at all from what i remember. 

Obviously if a group decided to rush the venue then all bets are off. It’s a music venue not Fort Knox.


----------



## thebackrow (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> It must cross their minds that dealing with 10,000 fans in a built up area with heavy traffic at all times has risks



Wikipedia’s figures for the max capacity of the venue.


Capacity4,921
Detailed capacity[1]

General admission: 4,300
Reserved: 3,820
Theatre: 2,315


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## Crispy (Dec 16, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> The science of crowds is quite interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, beyond a certain density of people, individual behaviour no longer has any bearing and the crowd basically acts as a fluid. Literal shockwaves can propagate through the crowd and can reflect and refract just like waves in air or water. The experience on the ground is as if everyone around you suddenly decided to move in the same direction. If you happen to be in the wrong place, where the waves are concentrated, then there's nothing you or the people around you can do. The science of preventing crowding injuries is all about keeping crowd density under that threshold. Once you've breached it, personal responsibility and morality take a hike, and cold physics takes over.


----------



## twistedAM (Dec 16, 2022)

editor said:


> AFAIK, there has been no evidence offered yet about the amount of 'fake tickets' that were in circulation, so it could be a few or it could be hundreds.


Again I have no hard evidence but saw a post from someone who works in that sector of the industry point a finger at a certain ticket reselling website whose checking procedure is not the best.


----------



## Smick (Dec 17, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> Again I have no hard evidence but saw a post from someone who works in that sector of the industry point a finger at a certain ticket reselling website whose checking procedure is not the best.


Ticket reselling at a price above that set by the promoter needs to be illegal. It’s that simple.

If you know that unless you’ve bought your ticket through the advertised channels, and they can’t charge more than the published amount, then you won’t get in, it will make things so much better for everyone.

Fuck knows how to do that but the likes of ticketmaster has been charging billions for decades. It shouldn’t be beyond them. They can invent something. Make it the law and they’ll find a way. 

To play devil’s advocate for those who came down without tickets, if £40 tickets were impossible to get on the day of sale and, immediately as they went on sale, £120 tickets were everywhere, you can understand why someone might say “fuck that, I'm going down anyway”

This is all just a culmination of being ripped off for tickets for years.


----------



## Winot (Dec 17, 2022)

Smick said:


> Ticket reselling at a price above that set by the promoter needs to be illegal. It’s that simple.
> 
> If you know that unless you’ve bought your ticket through the advertised channels, and they can’t charge more than the published amount, then you won’t get in, it will make things so much better for everyone.
> 
> ...


Effective measures to stop reselling already exists. It requires checking photo ID on the door. Presumably not very popular with venues.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> It's mostly not very obvious when a crowd is dangerously packed until you're actually in the dangerously packed bit.



You've not worked at a music venue have you?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2022)

Yes


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## killer b (Dec 17, 2022)

But that post was about how a crowd looks when approaching as a punter anyway, so I dunno how where I've worked is relevant


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> But that post was about how a crowd looks when approaching as a punter anyway, so I dunno how where I've worked is relevant



When you say punter, is that person with a ticket or person trying to bundle his way in, even though from outside they're in no position to judge crowd conditions inside the venue?

I assumed you'd not worked in a venue because you clearly think capacity rules aren't important. If you do know how venues operate and you still don't give a shit about crowd safety then that's worse, not better.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2022)

What.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> What.



Tldr: coming on a thread like this to bleat about how you like to try and get into venues for free is a cunt's trick.


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## killer b (Dec 17, 2022)

That isn't what happened you fucking weirdo


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## thebackrow (Dec 17, 2022)

Winot said:


> Effective measures to stop reselling already exists. It requires checking photo ID on the door. Presumably not very popular with venues.


A couple of gigs I've been to in the last month or two had digital tickets/barcodes that were only issued a few hours before the event (presumably to minimise copying etc).  Tickets had my name on them, transfers to other people had to be done some time before. 

I've not had a physical paper ticket in years. Yes, you could screenshot a barcode and WhatsApp it to someone else (and I guess that would work) but theres are loads of ways as a punter of being certain you've got a valid ticket (and for venues/promotors to minimise chances of people being scammed)


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## Smick (Dec 17, 2022)

Winot said:


> Effective measures to stop reselling already exists. It requires checking photo ID on the door. Presumably not very popular with venues.


Because it is an additional cost to run checks. Plus I have read that some promoters sell tickets as touts as well.

Make it a condition of licensing that a certain % of tickets need to be checked, and refuse entry to those who are found not to be the correct person, people won't be confident in buying off touts and it will dry up.

If the promoter / venue / ticket company isn't doing the checks then refuse them a licence.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 17, 2022)

Call me old fashioned but I wouldn’t even turn up to an event if I didn’t have a ticket. Because hanging around in abject disappointment in minus degrees isn’t my idea of a fun night.


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## Rushy (Dec 17, 2022)

There was no trouble at all in the queue when I braved the Academy last month to see German techno style marching brass band buskers Meute. Although the lady in front of me did get a bit lairy and kept treading on my toes when they played The Man With the Red Face.


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## Spandex (Dec 17, 2022)

I think the biggest cause of this was the promoters underestimating the popularity of Asake. Afrobeats is a huge global phenomenon,  Asake one of the biggest stars at the moment, a rising global superstar. His shows are a spectacle - he's bought a goat on stage, he's handed out cash to the audience, he's in his prime as a performer, his album from this year has been turning up on album of the year lists. The Acadamy sold out three nights in minutes. He could've probably filled a venue like Wembley Arena or the O2. This was the last chance to see him at this point in his career in a venue the size of the Academy.

Sure, the Academy has sold out before, but once tickets are sold out there's no way of knowing how many people still want to go or how desperate they are to go. LCD Soundsystem selling out the Academy is an order of magnitude below Asake's current popularity. This is why some fans were predicting crowds before the event.

According to some BBC coverage I saw someone tweeted early in the evening that it was quiet outside. If people are desperate to go that's clear an invitation to go down on the off chance you can get in. Just because an event has sold out doesn't mean the venue is full. You often don't know how full a place is til you get inside. Soon thousands of people gathered and the crush formed. Once a big crowd has formed individual actions don't much count. Did a handful of people act like arseholes? Naturally. We're they the cause of the crush? No. 

Could this have been forseen when the show was booked? Possibly not. Should crowd control outside the Acadamy have been put in place beforehand? In retrospect, definitely. The question is, how predictable to the authorities was this, as opposed to a handful of fans who are really engaged with Asake. Should they, could they have known this would happen and acted on it?


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## Winot (Dec 17, 2022)

Rushy said:


> There was no trouble at all in the queue when I braved the Academy last month to see German techno style marching brass band buskers Meute. Although the lady in front of me did get a bit lairy and kept treading on my toes when they played The Man With the Red Face.


There wasn’t a huge rush of people wanting to see them then?


----------



## A380 (Dec 17, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> A couple of gigs I've been to in the last month or  had digital tickets/barcodes that were only issued a few hours before the event (presumably to minimise copying etc).  Tickets had my name on them, transfers to other people had to be done some time before.
> 
> I've not had a physical paper ticket in years. Yes, you could screenshot a barcode and WhatsApp it to someone else (and I guess that would work) but theres are loads of ways as a punter of being certain you've got a valid ticket (and for venues/promotors to minimise chances of people being scammed)


Last couple of big sporting events I've been to (Rugby Internationals) You get a dynamic (I,e, it changes every couple of seconds) QR code about 24 hours before.


----------



## nogojones (Dec 17, 2022)

editor said:


> There's a lot of elements that caused this fuckup and lots of blame to apportion, but if you think those people who pushed over and trampled on people when they were trying to show their tickets on the door are totally blameless, I'm going to disagree with you.


The people who were trampling on others were most likely doing it due to the force of the crowd behind, not because they were bad people. It's how crushes work.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2022)

Plenty of footage here. The first one is truly 














			https://mobile.twitter.com/elsie_leimu/status/1603522328427724800


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 17, 2022)

Unfortunately one of the women involved has died ☹️


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## Elpenor (Dec 17, 2022)

A380 said:


> Lat couple of big sporting events I've been to (Rugby Internationals) You get a dynamic (I,e, it changes every couple of seconds) QR code about 24 hours before.


Yes, came here to say this as was at the same event. Scan the QR code on the turnstile at the perimeter. Not feasible at the Academy which IIRC opens directly onto the street


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## Smick (Dec 17, 2022)

All those videos are going to have people in amongst them who did buy tickets interspersed with those who did. If I had paid good money to go to a gig, I would find it hard to just turn round and walk off because there are those there who hadn't.


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## Smick (Dec 17, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Unfortunately one of the women involved has died ☹️


Oh no! All over a night out. How sad. When it went from four critical to three, I was hoping that they would just take their time to get better. That really is awful to happen at Christmas.


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## skyscraper101 (Dec 17, 2022)

This is heartbreaking stuff. Those poor people who were hurt. 

I don’t know what the best thing to have done was but when people are getting crushed presumably all that can be done is cancel the show immediately and and open all access to stop the crushing. Tragic that someone should’ve died like this.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2022)

BBC latest. One woman dead two still in critical condition. It's awful. 



> *A woman has died after being injured in a crush at a gig at London's Brixton O2 Academy that left several others hurt.
> *
> The concert, by Afro-pop singer Asake, had to be abandoned part-way through after a "large number of people" tried to force their way inside on Thursday, the Met Police said.
> Rebecca Ikumelo was among those injured and died in hospital on Saturday morning, the Met said.
> ...











						Brixton Academy: Woman dies after Asake concert crush
					

A woman has died and two others remain critically injured after a crush at the Brixton O2 Academy.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2022)

This footage showing people trying to smash their way in is fucking terrifying 









						Asake concert: Crowd tries to enter venue in Brixton
					

The Met Police said eight people were taken to hospital by ambulance, four of whom were in a critical condition, while others were treated at the scene by paramedics.




					news.sky.com


----------



## A380 (Dec 17, 2022)

The last video is actually a really interesting example of the issue. You can hear and see people who are at the back of the crowd where pressure and density won't be that high thinking it's just a bit of a laugh. The problem is that pressure is amplified through the crowd to the point that metal crash barriers can get bent.  Of course lot's of people do realise this. You can also hear people commenting on how dangerous it all is.

Intelligence failing perhaps? So should the organisers, and/or licensing authority / SAG*  done more at the risk assessment stage to predict the large numbers of un-ticketed people ? (if indeed this was the issue, the UK history of crowd disasters should cause people to be wary of first accounts.) Should the old bill have had some input? although i'm not sure the days of the police banning music events with predominantly black people as an audience are ones anyone would want to go back to.

Mind you the site looks to be a bastard. i guess you'd need a full or part road closure and do the the ticket checks at crowd barriers that fed into a sterile area. That would probably look like taking 200M of the road. Not sure how neighbouring business, residents  and people using the road would have reacted to that.


A fucking tragedy though.


* (Does this venue have  a Safety Advisory Group ? Any Brixton event organisers on here know please?)


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 17, 2022)

Crispy said:


> Yep, beyond a certain density of people, individual behaviour no longer has any bearing and the crowd basically acts as a fluid.




This surge literally snapped the front barrier in two, the impact force on those at the front must have been incredible. My friend was in the FOH tower mixing them at the time and says it was about the most terrifying thing he’d ever seen. They were extremely lucky nobody was killed.


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## CH1 (Dec 17, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> Wikipedia’s figures for the max capacity of the venue.
> 
> 
> Capacity4,921
> ...


My comment was based on the assumption this was a 3000+ venue three nights.
Interesting figures you found there.


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## CH1 (Dec 17, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> LCD Soundsystem did a week long, sold out, residency at the start of July. I went on the last night and it was no different to any other sold out gig I’ve been to there - the queue was right down the side and back towards the skatepark. No issues.
> 
> The tightest crowd is getting out through the doors at the end. Pre Covid most gigs sold out long before the night - a capacity crowd there is not an issue in itself.
> 
> I had tickets to 2ManyDjs and just had to message a friend who’s travelling over from Dublin for the weekend…


Yes agreed. There have been 30 years of concerts at the Academy and this is the first fatality to my knowledge.
Which is why they need to establish what specifically went wrong.


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## bimble (Dec 17, 2022)

This, getting crushed by a mass of people in a confined space is my worst fear, like its pretty much at the level of a phobia a thing that I worry about when I shouldn't. 
I was there not very long ago (burning spear) and remember feeling this gratitude to the crowd for being so slow and patient and gentle even whilst being herded around squished together that I didn't have to get scared even for a moment at all.  
People being trampled to death right there on that familiar happy memories spot just really hard to take in.


----------



## AverageJoe (Dec 17, 2022)

I was at Donnington Monsters Of Rock in 1996/87 when Guns and Roses came on for their first ever UK show just after "Appetite For Destruction" had dropped.

The crush killed two and I was totally swept off my feet and had no idea where I would land. It went on forever. What started as a fun day ended up pretty traumatic.


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## nogojones (Dec 17, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> This surge literally snapped the front barrier in two, the impact force on those at the front must have been incredible. My friend was in the FOH tower mixing them at the time and says it was about the most terrifying thing he’d ever seen. They were extremely lucky nobody was killed.



Christ!


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## ElizabethofYork (Dec 17, 2022)

Crowds are terrifying.


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## bimble (Dec 17, 2022)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Crowds are terrifying.


That's my instinctive feeling too but I've been trying to get better about it, went to my first football match recently, which is crowds plus the added terror of lots of them wearing the same thing. 
This crowd at academy it probably felt fine just a moment before it didn't, and it could even have been one person's actions that set off the chain of events but that's the thing isn't it that's what makes crowds potentially terrifying.


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## spitfire (Dec 17, 2022)

So does anyone know if the crush took place inside the venue or was it when the crowd forced its way in? Or both?


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## T & P (Dec 17, 2022)

spitfire said:


> So does anyone know if the crush took place inside the venue or was it when the crowd forced its way in? Or both?


I don’t know how reliable single eyewitness claims can ever be, but some bloke said earlier today on a BBC R4 news bulletin interview he saw two people being given CPR, outside, then a third being brought from inside who was then worked on by the paramedics ’for a considerable amount of time’. So that would suggest there was a serious situation inside.


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## T & P (Dec 17, 2022)

I still think it was something of a miracle that there wasn’t a similar if not far worse catastrophe at Wembley last year during the Euros final, with all the shit that went on there…


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## cuppa tee (Dec 17, 2022)

artist statement following new developments.....



some of the replies are a bit 😳


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## Athos (Dec 17, 2022)

bimble said:


> ... went to my first football match recently, which is crowds plus the added terror of lots of them wearing the same thing.


Football crowds now nothing like what they used to be. The old days used to get really hairy. I'm still amazed it took a long as it did for a Hillsborough to happen.


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## tonysingh (Dec 17, 2022)

Athos said:


> Football crowds now nothing like what they used to be. The old days used to get really hairy. I'm still amazed it took a long as it did for a Hillsborough to happen.



There was crowd crush type disaster that happened nearly 20 years before Hillsborough. The Ibrox disaster.


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## friedaweed (Dec 17, 2022)

Athos said:


> Football crowds now nothing like what they used to be. The old days used to get really hairy. I'm still amazed it took a long as it did for a Hillsborough to happen.


If you read Phil Scraton's book Hillsborough The Truth, it starts with the telling of a crowd crush disaster. It's not until the chapter is some way through that Scraton reveals he's describing the Burnden Park disaster some 43 years before Hillsborough and not Hillsborough itself. 

It didn't take that long to happen, it already had happened, not once but twice, and nothing was learnt from it which is what makes Hillsborough even more of a tragedy.  









						Burnden Park disaster - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Then there was Ibrox in 1971.




			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283715606_Hillsborough_The_Truth
		


Page 18 onwards.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 17, 2022)

tonysingh said:


> There was crowd crush type disaster that happened nearly 20 years before Hillsborough. The Ibrox disaster.


and one 20 years before that.


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## Rushy (Dec 17, 2022)

I remember being carried off my feet by the crowd round the back of the Radio 1 stage at noting hill carnival in the late 90s. Arms tight to my sides. Probably only a minute but felt like forever. Have not been back since. I felt like Coldharbour Lane during Splash was heading that way, possibly 2011, and got straight out. I really don't like crowds.


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## Miss-Shelf (Dec 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> If you read Phil Scraton's book Hillsborough The Truth, it starts with the telling of a crowd crush disaster. It's not until the chapter is some way through that Scraton reveals he's describing the Burnden Park disaster some 43 years before Hillsborough and not Hillsborough itself.
> 
> It didn't take that long to happen, it already had happened, not once but twice, and nothing was learnt from it which is what makes Hillsborough even more of a tragedy.
> 
> ...


Not an easy read but an excellent retelling of events by Scraton that gave Hillsborough such a deep and long context 

Gives a lot of insight into the complex reasons that feed into dangerous crowd situations.


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 17, 2022)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Crowds are terrifying.





Rushy said:


> I remember being carried off my feet by the crowd round the back of the Radio 1 stage at noting hill carnival in the late 90s. Arms tight to my sides. Probably only a minute but felt like forever. Have not been back since. I felt like Coldharbour Lane during Splash was heading that way, possibly 2011, and got straight out. I really don't like crowds.


i felt the same way when the fireworks were in Brockwell park. Pitch black and an uncontrolled crowd


----------



## A380 (Dec 17, 2022)

Athos said:


> Football crowds now nothing like what they used to be. The old days used to get really hairy. I'm still amazed it took a long as it did for a Hillsborough to happen.


1902 Ibrox
Wembley 1923 (no recorded deaths but c 1000 injuries
1946 Burnden Park
1961 Ibrox again

Hillsborough had been managed safely for years but the new commander, who had no background in what would now be called event management and public order, was too arrogant  to listen to the people who had been commanding it for a few years.


----------



## T & P (Dec 17, 2022)

Was just reading in the Guardian about the poor woman who’s died. Leaves behind two children as well. What a senseless tragedy


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 17, 2022)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Not an easy read but an excellent retelling of events by Scraton that gave Hillsborough such a deep and long context
> 
> Gives a lot of insight into the complex reasons that feed into dangerous crowd situations.


Yup not an easy read at all. I was lucky enough to work with Phil many moons ago when he was writing about the the youth justice system, specifically in relation to Thompson and Venabals and the Bulger case.

He was a major contributing factor in bringing the miscarriage of justice that Hillsborough was to it's conclusion. A solid reminder of why dogged academics are so important to society.

A very important Liverpudlian as well now given his wooleyback origins. .


----------



## Athos (Dec 17, 2022)

tonysingh said:


> There was crowd crush type disaster that happened nearly 20 years before Hillsborough. The Ibrox disaster.





friedaweed said:


> It didn't take that long to happen, it already had happened, not once but twice, and nothing was learnt from it which is what makes Hillsborough even more of a tragedy.





A380 said:


> 1902 Ibrox
> Wembley 1923 (no recorded deaths but c 1000 injuries
> 1946 Burnden Park
> 1961 Ibrox again


You're all right, of course.  Which is all the more depressing.


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## friedaweed (Dec 17, 2022)

A380 said:


> 1902 Ibrox
> Wembley 1923 (no recorded deaths but c 1000 injuries
> 1946 Burnden Park
> 1961 Ibrox again
> ...


The ground itself was also a contributing factor though. It was far from safe and that's well documented but then again even those grounds that were classed as 'Safe' were all accidents waiting to happen. My brother was at the other semi final on the day of Hillsborough and he is still connectively traumatised by both incidents. He remembers only too well as a young teenage lad that it could have so easily of happened there too.


----------



## A380 (Dec 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> The ground itself was also a contributing factor though. It was far from safe and that's well documented but then again even those grounds that were classed as 'Safe' were all accidents waiting to happen. My brother was at the other semi final on the day of Hillsborough and he is still connectively traumatised by both incidents. He remembers only too well as a young teenage lad that it could have so easily of happened there too.


No doubt about that. The ground was a disaster as were many other grounds at the time.


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## xenon (Dec 18, 2022)

What lessons have been learned that pertain to this though? An event venue in an urban setting. We’re week in week out there are gigs and most people just queue up. How can they be set up for a rush of hundreds if not thousands of people intend on getting in without a ticket.


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## xenon (Dec 18, 2022)

those people trying to rush in without tickets are cunts. This isn’t a normal thing at popular and busy venues. people queueing around the block is what normally happens.  Be it Brixton or elsewhere.


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## AmateurAgitator (Dec 18, 2022)

Tragic and nightmarish


----------



## David Clapson (Dec 18, 2022)

If it was 3000 people too many, for a 5000 person ticketed gig....that's strange.  Going out for the evening with your plan being to force your way past security...who does that? Do Asake fans get all manic, like Beatles fans did? And Madonna fans and (apparently) Liszt fans? Is it revolutionary music?


----------



## wow (Dec 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> I dispute the idea that someone having a level go at hopping into something free is a selfish cunt prepared to put other people's lives at risk for a cheap night out. That's the main thrust of my posts on this topic thread ffs.


…and people are calling me a cunt.

It’s selfish because you want something for free which is not free. It’s dangerous because entitled little cunts like you decided you have the right to just turn up and enter.

People died because of that.


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## Smick (Dec 18, 2022)

I remember at Glastonbury 2000, coming back from seeing The Flaming Lips at the New Bands (?) tent and the acts at the Pyramid and Other stages had finished at the same time. 

All of a sudden we’re on a lane and people have come from all angles and we’re all just stuck, although not being crushed. 

There was wire fencing and I could hear the guy on the other side talking to his mate about taking it down to let people through and I shouted “don’t you fucking dare open this. It’s going to cause a stampede!” Thankfully he didn’t.


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## _Russ_ (Dec 18, 2022)

The people that went there caused the crush, the lady who died was someone who went there.
These are facts, spin it how you like it wont help her


----------



## killer b (Dec 18, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> The people that went there caused the crush, the lady who died was someone who went there.
> These are facts, spin it how you like it wont help her


Are... are you saying she's responsible for her own death?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> The people that went there caused the crush, the lady who died was someone who went there.
> These are facts, spin it how you like it wont help her



The people who went without tickets or forced their way inside were likely responsible. It was sold out, so many there will have had tickets. 

When people push into a crowd from behind, the people at the front are at the greatest risk. It's likely those who were killed or badly hurt did nothing wrong.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2022)

Smick said:


> I remember at Glastonbury 2000, coming back from seeing The Flaming Lips at the New Bands (?) tent and the acts at the Pyramid and Other stages had finished at the same time.
> 
> All of a sudden we’re on a lane and people have come from all angles and we’re all just stuck, although not being crushed.
> 
> There was wire fencing and I could hear the guy on the other side talking to his mate about taking it down to let people through and I shouted “don’t you fucking dare open this. It’s going to cause a stampede!” Thankfully he didn’t.



Only went to glastonbury once. The experience of shuffling along in a vast crowd on the tank tracks, basically powerless to go anywhere, is not one I intend to repeat. Punter numbers have nearly doubled since then as well.


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## shakespearegirl (Dec 18, 2022)

Smick said:


> I remember at Glastonbury 2000, coming back from seeing The Flaming Lips at the New Bands (?) tent and the acts at the Pyramid and Other stages had finished at the same time.
> 
> All of a sudden we’re on a lane and people have come from all angles and we’re all just stuck, although not being crushed.
> 
> There was wire fencing and I could hear the guy on the other side talking to his mate about taking it down to let people through and I shouted “don’t you fucking dare open this. It’s going to cause a stampede!” Thankfully he didn’t.


I was there and it was my last Glastonbury, the crowds were overwhelming and it didn’t feel safe


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## killer b (Dec 18, 2022)

shakespearegirl said:


> I was there and it was my last Glastonbury, the crowds were overwhelming and it didn’t feel safe


the megafence went up the next year as a result of the crowding I think - I got caught in a crowd that was definitely the most unsafe I've ever felt in a crowd that year too. I reckon it was only good luck things didn't go badly.


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## pesh (Dec 18, 2022)

it was just luck that nobody died at that Glastonbury, 2 months later 9 people did die at Roskilde when the delay speaker towers failed during Pearl Jam's gig and the crowd pushed forwards in an attempt to get nearer the main PA system.


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## DaphneM (Dec 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> Are... are you saying she's responsible for her own death?


i think he is saying that, if she didn't have a ticket?


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## A380 (Dec 18, 2022)

The Fatboy Slim event on Brighton Beach in 2002 led to two deaths and a number of injuries.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> The people that went there caused the crush, the lady who died was someone who went there.
> These are facts, spin it how you like it wont help her


that's not a fact, that's an assertion, an interpretation of facts


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2022)

Would most people reasonably expect that going along to a gig with the intention of trying to get in free would lead to deaths and injuries?

I don't think so.

On this kind of logic, no-one should go to events like the Notting Hill Carnival unless they want to be held responsible for any tragedies that might happen.


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## A380 (Dec 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Would most people reasonably expect that going along to a gig with the intention of trying to get in free would lead to deaths and injuries?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> On this kind of logic, no-one should go to events like the Notting Hill Carnival unless they want to be held responsible for any tragedies that might happen.


Notting Hill Carnival is an open ticketless event. The SAG plan for that  set of circumstances and the venue and have contingencies in place to minimise risk. Most indoor tickled events are planned for the venue and the number of tickets sold. If you rock up to the latter with the intention of forcing your way in for nothing then you defiantly are contributing to chipping away at the safety margins.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2022)

A380 said:


> Notting Hill Carnival is an open ticketless event. The SAG plan for that  set of circumstances and the venue and have contingencies in place to minimise risk. Most indoor tickled events are planned for the venue and the number of tickets sold. If you rock up to the latter with the intention of forcing your way in for nothing then you defiantly are contributing to chipping away at the safety margins.


I don't really think it's reasonable to expect a bunch of excited 19 year olds to be thinking along these lines.


----------



## A380 (Dec 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I don't really think it's reasonable to expect a bunch of excited 19 year olds to be thinking along these lines.


That's another area where we differ then.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I don't really think it's reasonable to expect a bunch of excited 19 year olds to be thinking along these lines.


Yeah, god forbid adults are, errr, adults.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 18, 2022)

A380 said:


> The Fatboy Slim event on Brighton Beach in 2002 led to two deaths and a number of injuries.


One person fell off the railings above the beach but it was well after the event finished, the other person died of a heart attack  but they were somewhere else on the beach, not at the concert. I was there, it was crowded for sure but I never felt squashed or in danger, of course I can only talk about locations I was in. It certainly could of turned into a disaster with the numbers that turned up but I don't think it came as close to it as people make out.


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## pinkmonkey (Dec 18, 2022)

The only thing I can think of to sort these sort of issues is could a gig get flagged for extra security or even consideration to move to a more suitable venue if demand for tickets are unusually high, could they then monitor social media and find out if there's a high number of touts? Otherwise I don't know how you'd fix this, human nature is unpredictable.


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## 8ball (Dec 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> the megafence went up the next year as a result of the crowding I think - I got caught in a crowd that was definitely the most unsafe I've ever felt in a crowd that year too. I reckon it was only good luck things didn't go badly.



Think you're right there.  I was caught in a jam in 1999.  Had to make a kind of cage with my elbows so I could breathe.  A few people were freaking out a bit, with their mates trying to calm them.
There was no 'rush' as such, but a lot of pressure, and if there had been a rush it could have got really nasty.  Went again in 2002 and there were a few bunch-ups but not that kind of pressure from all angles.

Shame that we don't seem to have learned that much in the intervening time.


----------



## killer b (Dec 18, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, god forbid adults are, errr, adults.


I bet you didn't engage in any risky behaviour when you were 19


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## 8ball (Dec 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> I bet you didn't engage in any risky behaviour when you were 19



Sneaking in a side gate and risking a belting from the bouncers, yeah, but I think it's different when it comes to forcing your way into somewhere that is already full.


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## moochedit (Dec 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I don't really think it's reasonable to expect a bunch of excited 19 year olds to be thinking along these lines.


Would you say the same about a 19 year old boy racer?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> I bet you didn't engage in any risky behaviour when you were 19


I didn’t join a huge crowd attempting to storm into a full to capacity venue, no.


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## plurker (Dec 18, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> The only thing I can think of to sort these sort of issues is could a gig get flagged for extra security or even consideration to move to a more suitable venue if demand for tickets are unusually high, could they then monitor social media and find out if there's a high number of touts? Otherwise I don't know how you'd fix this, human nature is unpredictable.


The promoter and venue should be discussing these things in the run in to the event, briefing a week or so out on any points of concern (historic crowd behaviours, any history of x y or z etc)

With three sold out nights at 4k cap, it's clear the artist has immense popularity, but as you say that kind of crowd action couldn't really be predicted imo. The Academy, and many other venues, run fully s/o events all the time with no problem

What we don't know is how many of those outside and pushing in had legit tickets but were kept out as the venue was full, had no tickets at all, or bought on secondary from tout/Viagogo types.  

What we don't want is any knee-jerk crap from licensing like the return of the 696 form, but perhaps a focus on cracking down on secondary market ticketing.

A terrible event, and I feel sorry for all concerned - every venue/artist/promoter's nightmare.  
RIEP Rebecca.


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## Diamond (Dec 18, 2022)

Spandex said:


> I think the biggest cause of this was the promoters underestimating the popularity of Asake. Afrobeats is a huge global phenomenon,  Asake one of the biggest stars at the moment, a rising global superstar. His shows are a spectacle - he's bought a goat on stage, he's handed out cash to the audience, he's in his prime as a performer, his album from this year has been turning up on album of the year lists. The Acadamy sold out three nights in minutes. He could've probably filled a venue like Wembley Arena or the O2. This was the last chance to see him at this point in his career in a venue the size of the Academy.
> 
> Sure, the Academy has sold out before, but once tickets are sold out there's no way of knowing how many people still want to go or how desperate they are to go. LCD Soundsystem selling out the Academy is an order of magnitude below Asake's current popularity. This is why some fans were predicting crowds before the event.
> 
> ...



Hmm...your arguments seem to contradict each other.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 18, 2022)

Diamond said:


> Hmm...your arguments seem to contradict each other.


How so?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Would you say the same about a 19 year old boy racer?


I don't think 19 year olds should be let anywhere near cars that are appealing to race on public roads.

But also the risks involved in car racing are rather more obvious and direct.


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## Diamond (Dec 18, 2022)

Spandex said:


> How so?



Well, you seem to say that this person is extremely popular in a way that is distinct from all other artists that have played there recently. And therefore the crowd (and their behaviour?) was in some way predictable, in a way that is exculpatory of them.

Yet, you also conclude that this was probably not foreseeable to the promoters/star, again in a way that is fairly exculpatory of them too.

Before saying that “the authorities” should be the real focus here.

Either we live in a world where all this was predictable (and it’s not the crowd’s fault) or we live in a world where this was not foreseeable (in which case the promoters/star can hardly be blamed).

But I don’t think we can live in a world where both of those things are true and determinative at the same time.


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## Diamond (Dec 18, 2022)

I wonder if this is in some way a tech<>behaviour problem. E-tickets are reproducible and therefore can proliferate much more easily. If you have some token in hand that you’ve got from some random WhatsApp group, does that stimulate attempts to get in that wouldn’t happen without physical tickets?

My hunch is the answer is yes.

In which case, expect more of this sort of thing until people take it all a bit more seriously .


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## Spandex (Dec 18, 2022)

Diamond said:


> Well, you seem to say that this person is extremely popular in a way that is distinct from all other artists that have played there recently. And therefore the crowd (and their behaviour?) was in some way predictable, in a way that is exculpatory of them.


I was giving a hot take on how it happened, not looking to apportion blame.

Asake's popularity has grown in recent months following the release of his album and current tour. He's gone from popular afrobeats artist to big star. It's possible Brixton Academy was the right size venue when the tour was initially booked, but by the day of the tragedy was too small to cope.


Diamond said:


> Yet, you also conclude that this was probably not foreseeable to the promoters/star, again in a way that is fairly exculpatory of them too


Asake did tweet, probably at the request of his team or the promoters, before the event asking people not to come down and try to get in. Other fans said they expected crowds. So crowds were predicted and something - obviously not enough with retrospect - was done in an to attempt to mitigate it. 


Diamond said:


> Before saying that “the authorities” should be the real focus here.


I deliberately left how predictable this was to "the authorities" - Lambeth Council and the local Police - as a question. Should the Council/local Police know about the current popularity of someone playing at the Academy? Should the Academy know and notify them? Did they? Could anyone have expected the size of the crowd that led to a crush? Was some kind of risk assessment carried out which concluded it was fine to go ahead as planned? Did it come as a complete surprise? What rumours were circulating that caused so many people to turn up in the hope of getting in? I don't know the answer to any of this. I suspect these questions are being asked by the venue, council and police.


Diamond said:


> Either we live in a world where all this was predictable (and it’s not the crowd’s fault) or we live in a world where this was not foreseeable (in which case the promoters/star can hardly be blamed).
> 
> But I don’t think we can live in a world where both of those things are true and determinative at the same time.


That's a very binary way of looking at it: all this was foreseeable or all of it wasn't. It's possible for a crowd to be predictable but not the size or impact of the crowd until it was too late to do anything but try and cope with the situation.


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## 8ball (Dec 18, 2022)

Upcoming tech solution: tickets on phones remotely monitored and GPS tracked at all times with similar monitoring for all unticketed individuals in the area.

For your safety and comfort.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> I bet you didn't engage in any risky behaviour when you were 19



Are _you_ 19?


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## xenon (Dec 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Would most people reasonably expect that going along to a gig with the intention of trying to get in free would lead to deaths and injuries?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> On this kind of logic, no-one should go to events like the Notting Hill Carnival unless they want to be held responsible for any tragedies that might happen.



Would you try to get into a venue sans ticket, with  hundreds of others? The intent presumably to rush security, overwelm and get in. I mean you're not all thinking you're gonna sneak past or blag your way in.

Same sort of mentality as those pricks at Wembly last year. Except that was football, so no one made excuses for them.


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 18, 2022)

Awful that there has been a fatality, no one should go for a night out and not come home.

Interesting take on this Guardian article. Mostly blaming the venue, which has one of strictest doors in the whole of London.

Very conflicting views, apparently there was no barricades or barriers or security, but the same person goes onto say they were hemmed in against barricades, and then security helped them and told them it would be safer to leave the area. And then a lawyer (who probably wasn't there) complaining that there was no security telling people to go home. I would have thought that would be obvious to those outside without a ticket, but i doubt they would have listened. 

No doubt there will be a license review of the venue, but what more can they do, apart from expect people to form an orderly queue? 









						Witnesses to Brixton concert crush say many fans outside had tickets
					

One concertgoer claims security guards ‘kettled’ fans into a confined space outside Asake gig




					www.theguardian.com


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## Smick (Dec 18, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> No doubt there will be a license review of the venue, but what more can they do, apart from expect people to form an orderly queue?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess the answer is some form of zigzagging before you get to the door itself. People get closer to getting in while facing away from the venue.


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## pbsmooth (Dec 18, 2022)

And when was the last time this happened at Brixton Academy?


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## teuchter (Dec 18, 2022)

xenon said:


> Would you try to get into a venue sans ticket, with  hundreds of others? The intent presumably to rush security, overwelm and get in. I mean you're not all thinking you're gonna sneak past or blag your way in.



We've no idea what everyone in that crowd was thinking or intending or what persuaded them it was worth showing up without a ticket. No doubt there was a mixture.

But even for someone (or a group) whose plan was to try and rush security - that might be a stupid plan for many reasons, and it might be a plan that they would know had certain risks - but my question is whether it's a plan that we can reasonably assume they appreciated had a risk of causing what happened on this occasion. I think the risks they might have had in mind would be things like getting into a fight with security, or getting arrested for something or the other. I don't think it would be reasonable to assume they had read the academic literature on crowd behaviour and fully appreciated that some actions that might seem limited in effect to the people carrying them out can actually lead to very serious consequences for others in a crowd.

Like others, most of my most alarming crowd experiences have been at Carnival. And a few of those have involved a bunch of kids rushing an already crowded area. It mostly just creates a few moments of panic or pushing. I'm sure those kids do it to get a reaction but I don't think they are doing it with the possibility that someone could be killed as a result in mind. I'd really rather they didn't do it but if something bad did happen as a result, the extent to which I'd hold them directly responsible would be limited. It would be something ultimately created by the decision to hold a large, very crowded and loosely controlled event. The issue would be more about how aware other atendees are, of the risks involved in that kind of event, and whether anything more could have been done to inform them.


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## killer b (Dec 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> We've no idea what everyone in that crowd was thinking or intending or what persuaded them it was worth showing up without a ticket.


Worth noting that everyone interviewed in the guardian article above who was in the crowd seems to think people turning up without tickets weren't a factor. Seems familiar.


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## Smick (Dec 19, 2022)

The biggest issue I can see from the Guardian, and other sources, is that they started the concert before the issues outside had been resolved. 

Thinking of myself again, if I had paid good money for a concert, shown up on time, been standing out in the coldest weather all year and could hear the concert beginning, my behaviour might become a little more urgent. And, as mentioned, a bit of jostling further back in a crowd can amplify to a fatal crush at the front if there aren't proper measures to dissipate the crowds.

You tend to hear of a single event in these kind of disasters, like a gate being opened in Hillsborough, a goal being scored at Ibrox as everyone was leaving.

Whoever allowed the gig to start when there were a thousand people on the street was fucking stupid and it should be asked if that is corporate manslaughter. I'll bet their minds were on commercial agreements, council ticketing, venue hire instead of the wellbeing of the people outside.


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## thebackrow (Dec 19, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Only went to glastonbury once. The experience of shuffling along in a vast crowd on the tank tracks, basically powerless to go anywhere, is not one I intend to repeat. Punter numbers have nearly doubled since then as well.


2000 was mental but, while paying punter numbers have gone up, it’s generally accepted there are still significantly fewer people on a much larger site than there were in 2000. I was back in 2002 and the camping fields, even close to the Pyramid, were bizarrely spacious. I’ve been loads of times since and never been in a crowd that felt dangerous - the route to shangri la got a bit mad after the headliners at one point but that was dealt with.

the academy normally safely queues people down the side of the venue with barriered  off space around the steps so no crush at the doors. The security guards way down the side are checking you’ve got a ticket. The tickets for the cancelled 2manydjs gig were electronic in-app (and someone told me changing/uncopyable QR codes).  I really don’t think the issue here has been the academy - whether or not there were a lot of fake tickets, from the video I’ve seen for some reason the queuing system broke down, people jumped over/pushed down the barriers and a large crowd tried to rush the doors. That would have the same danger at every venue or festival I can think of because they all have to funnel all of the punters through a small number of ticket check/search gates.


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## Smick (Dec 19, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> That would have the same danger at every venue or festival I can think of because they all have to funnel all of the punters through a small number of ticket check/search gates.


At a festival there isn't one single attraction. As long as you get in there, you will have a good time over a couple of days. When a gig is 90 minutes, and you are standing outside and can hear it, then the sense of urgency will be greater. 

Nobody set out that night to cause a crush that has killed at least one, and I really can't condemn the mindset which said "He's started playing, I've paid my money and have been waiting here for ages. Fuck that, I'm going in".

It's up to the venue and the promoter to make sure that, if this happens, nobody is put at risk.


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## thebackrow (Dec 19, 2022)

Diamond said:


> I wonder if this is in some way a tech<>behaviour problem. E-tickets are reproducible and therefore can proliferate much more easily. If you have some token in hand that you’ve got from some random WhatsApp group, does that stimulate attempts to get in that wouldn’t happen without physical tickets?
> 
> My hunch is the answer is yes.
> 
> In which case, expect more of this sort of thing until people take it all a bit more seriously .


if you look at really old gig tickets they were just a printed bit of paper. Physical, but easy to fake. like banknotes they then got increasingly complex - print on card, colour, bits of foil, hologram type stuff. That all made printing fake tickets harder - could be done but needed some money and preparation (Glastonbury has unique woven fabric wristbands each year but I still met some guys who‘d had fake ones made up a few years back That were convincing enough to flash at security) 

QR codes are super easy to copy - you can just screenshot them - but the new style in an app that change every few minutes and effectively uncopyable - the venue know they’re only letting the true ticket holder through the door. But that doesn’t stop someone unscrupulously selling a useless screenshot if it to 100 different gullible people.

no idea wether that was a factor here


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## thebackrow (Dec 19, 2022)

Smick said:


> At a festival there isn't one single attraction. As long as you get in there, you will have a good time over a couple of days. When a gig is 90 minutes, and you are standing outside and can hear it, then the sense of urgency will be greater.
> 
> Nobody set out that night to cause a crush that has killed at least one, and I really can't condemn the mindset which said "He's started playing, I've paid my money and have been waiting here for ages. Fuck that, I'm going in".
> 
> It's up to the venue and the promoter to make sure that, if this happens, nobody is put at risk.


Again, pretty much every gig in London manages to get everyone through the doors in time. 
doors open. 7pm
support 8pm
main act 9pm (in reality 915)


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## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> Again, pretty much every gig in London manages to get everyone through the doors in time.
> doors open. 7pm
> support 8pm
> main act 9pm (in reality 915)


the show had started when the crush happened here though, so there must have been some unusual reason a thousand plus people were still on the pavement - door staff off sick, malfunctioning scanners maybe?


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## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

I find it hard to believe people selling screenshots of a QR code was the problem here when it wasn't a problem any other night of the run, or any other night ever.


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## Smick (Dec 19, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> Again, pretty much every gig in London manages to get everyone through the doors in time.
> doors open. 7pm
> support 8pm
> main act 9pm (in reality 915)


And when you've got the option of getting in two hours before the show, paying £7 for a plastic cup of Carling and standing in a cold, empty hall, or else going to a local pub and heading round to the venue at 8.30, I know which one I would rather do.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 19, 2022)

killer b said:


> I bet you didn't engage in any risky behaviour when you were 19



I remember on many occasions meeting up with people from this very site and going to squat parties and the list of risky behaviours involved there is as long as your arm. We were a bit older than 19 as well.


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## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I remember on many occasions meeting up with people from this very site and going to squat parties and the list of risky behaviours involved there is as long as your arm. We were a bit older than 19 as well.


You didn't carry out a risk assessment on capacity and safety before charging into a derelict building off your tits on drugs? Outrageous.


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## A380 (Dec 19, 2022)

teuchter said:


> We've no idea what everyone in that crowd was thinking or intending or what persuaded them it was worth showing up without a ticket. No doubt there was a mixture.
> 
> But even for someone (or a group) whose plan was to try and rush security - that might be a stupid plan for many reasons, and it might be a plan that they would know had certain risks - but my question is whether it's a plan that we can reasonably assume they appreciated had a risk of causing what happened on this occasion. I think the risks they might have had in mind would be things like getting into a fight with security, or getting arrested for something or the other. I don't think it would be reasonable to assume they had read the academic literature on crowd behaviour and fully appreciated that some actions that might seem limited in effect to the people carrying them out can actually lead to very serious consequences for others in a crowd.
> 
> Like others, most of my most alarming crowd experiences have been at Carnival. And a few of those have involved a bunch of kids rushing an already crowded area. It mostly just creates a few moments of panic or pushing. I'm sure those kids do it to get a reaction but I don't think they are doing it with the possibility that someone could be killed as a result in mind. I'd really rather they didn't do it but if something bad did happen as a result, the extent to which I'd hold them directly responsible would be limited. It would be something ultimately created by the decision to hold a large, very crowded and loosely controlled event. The issue would be more about how aware other atendees are, of the risks involved in that kind of event, and whether anything more could have been done to inform them.



Top infantilising there.


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## editor (Dec 19, 2022)

killer b said:


> Worth noting that everyone interviewed in the guardian article above who was in the crowd seems to think people turning up without tickets weren't a factor. Seems familiar.



Or maybe those people who were trying to smash the doors in and trample over people to get in were disinclined to come forward to a national newspaper with their details?


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## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

I dunno man, when some people who were on the ground during a fatal crush say the story is different to the one the venue and police put out in the immediate aftermath of the crush, I think it might be a good idea to maybe listen to them instead of doubling down. Considering the history of that kind of thing.


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## editor (Dec 19, 2022)

killer b said:


> I dunno man, when some people who were on the ground during a fatal crush say the story is different to the one the venue and police put out in the immediate aftermath of the crush, I think it might be a good idea to maybe listen to them instead of doubling down. Considering the history of that kind of thing.


I dunno man, maybe you should have a reread about what other people said on social media at the time, and maybe revisit that video where a guy's boasting about how he got in with a ticket.

I've already stated that I think that multiple factors were responsible but your attempt to shoehorn it into an exact rerun of Hillsborough are really simplistic.


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## story (Dec 19, 2022)

Smick said:


> At a festival there isn't one single attraction. As long as you get in there, you will have a good time over a couple of days. When a gig is 90 minutes, and you are standing outside and can hear it, then the sense of urgency will be greater.
> 
> Nobody set out that night to cause a crush that has killed at least one, and I really can't condemn the mindset which said "He's started playing, I've paid my money and have been waiting here for ages. Fuck that, I'm going in".
> 
> It's up to the venue and the promoter to make sure that, if this happens, nobody is put at risk.




You can’t hear the music outside the front door of the the Academy. If you’re standing right by one of the doors much further down the side alley you can a bit, if you listen for it, but not on the front steps. There are two large lobbies between the auditorium and the street.


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## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

editor said:


> I dunno man, maybe you should have a reread about what other people said on social media at the time, and maybe revisit that video where a guy's boasting about how he got in with a ticket.
> 
> I've already stated that I think that multiple factors were responsible but your attempt to shoehorn it into an exact rerun of Hillsborough are really simplistic.


I'm not doing that. I'm just saying in the light of things like Hillsborough and the confused picture in the immediate aftermath of events like this, it might be wise to be sceptical of the initial reports and narratives pushed by people who stand to gain from it being someone else's fault.


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## editor (Dec 19, 2022)

killer b said:


> I'm not doing that. I'm just saying in the light of things like Hillsborough and the confused picture in the immediate aftermath of events like this, it might be wise to be sceptical of the initial reports and narratives pushed by people who stand to gain from it being someone else's fault.


Yet you're the one who seems to have pursued a single conclusion from the very start.


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## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

tbh I'd intended to just post a general note of caution, but that kind of thing doesn't seem to be possible


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 19, 2022)

It’s all speculation anyway.


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## pbsmooth (Dec 19, 2022)

well there are lots of videos of what was happening which are certainly less speculation.


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## DaphneM (Dec 19, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> well there are lots of videos of what was happening which are certainly less speculation.


but then there is speculation on the videos.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 19, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> well there are lots of videos of what was happening which are certainly less speculation.


Did they or didn’t they have tickets?
Fuck knows tbh.


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## pbsmooth (Dec 19, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> but then there is speculation on the videos.


true. and maybe they were faked. I reckon probably all off-duty coppers trying to get in.


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## story (Dec 19, 2022)

I reckon it will have been a confluence of factors with some kind of trigger moment rather than one big bad thing that led to an inevitable outcome.

The cold will have made people impatient and eager to be not stuck outside.

It’s likely that there were fake tickets, also likely that some people had no ticket.

Sometimes at the Academy - especially when there’s a predominantly Black audience - crowds gather outside just to be there, as part of the event. Ziggy Marley and Burning Spear both had peaceful gatherings of people outside the venue. Police tend to go a bit gently-gently on these events for historic reasons.

I wonder what proportion of this crowd has much gig going experience. Going to gigs (or any other mass cultural event) demands and expects certain behaviours. I wouldn’t have a clue about what the general crowd culture is like at a rugby match or at Glyndbourne. Plus, I’ve noticed that 2 years of lockdown seems to have made a big difference to crowd etiquette. As if the chain of learning from others has glitched. If the door security (who are there a lot) were expecting the crowd to behave a certain way and they didn’t, then maybe there was a breakdown in the dialogue and dynamic between crew and crowd.

Normally, door and street security at the Academy is really good. I go there a lot and there are always plenty of people, at every point from barrier to inner door, all being efficient and professional, checking tickets and bags quickly. It’s a well oiled machine. I can’t believe that the house changed their protocols for this particular night. That makes no sense. But they may have had a few people call in sick, or too many rookies, or they may have been a touch complacent because they’ve never had an issue like this before.


Asake has blown up recently and obvs needs a bigger venue but I can’t see how realistic it would have been to pull these shows and book a larger venue, sell enough tickets for that, make Academy ticket valid for that show etc…. . Maybe they should have booked another couple of nights at the Academy but that may have been impossible for scheduling reasons.

I don’t think there was any way to anticipate this disaster so I don’t think it makes sense to say they should have delayed the show. That would have potentially pissed people off inside the auditorium.


Other points - like how a rush at the back compounds at the front, crowds being like fluids etc, all that’s true too.

I think this was probably one of those awful perfect storm situations, with a recipe of different things that accumulated. I don’t think we’re going to find a single fault that caused it.


That‘s no comfort at all, and it creates a situation where the need to find a scapegoat increases. Whether that ends up being the house, the crew, the crowd or some other thing remains to be seen. My worry is that instead of cracking down on fake tickets we end up with ever more draconian door policies, barrier policies and funnelling of crowds. That would be shit not only because it impinges on freedoms but also because the more you impose control on groups of people, the less agency and autonomy individual people experience, and the risk of crowd-as-mindless-entity increases. People treated like cattle at the street side of the venue are more likely to behave like cattle once they’re inside. (This is not science, it‘s based on my own obvs and exps over many years of being in gig and festival crowds.)




Over and above everything else though, I feel horrible about this needless death. There will also be residual trauma for others who were in the crowd, and my heart goes out to them too,


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## Mr paulee (Dec 19, 2022)

story said:


> I reckon it will have been a confluence of factors with some kind of trigger moment rather than one big bad thing that led to an inevitable outcome.
> 
> The cold will have made people impatient and eager to be not stuck outside.
> 
> ...


An excellent post.
Thank you


----------



## teuchter (Dec 19, 2022)

story said:


> Plus, I’ve noticed that 2 years of lockdown seems to have made a big difference to crowd etiquette. As if the chain of learning from others has glitched.


I think this is a good point. It seems to have prompted changes in behaviour in various contexts, not just gig crowds.

And two years is quite a long time at formative gig-going age.

Not unusual to learn from one's own mistakes about what kind of interaction with door staff results in a good outcome for example. Including scenarios where door staff are behaving badly... And vice versa.


----------



## story (Dec 19, 2022)

Everyone I’ve spoken with about this agrees with this.

Which is not at all the same thing as blaming the crowd.




The way people‘s public behaviour has changed is yet another subtle effect of the pandemic.


----------



## killer b (Dec 19, 2022)

Fair point - I think one of the other things that has changed post-pandemic is how easy it is to staff these kinds of events - with suitably trained and experienced staff, but also really at all: everyone I know working in hospitality is really struggling to staff their venues fully. 

It feels like there's been an uptick in fatal crush events in the last year, and at least some of them are down to post pandemic staffing issues - probably behavioural changes are involved with those too


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Dec 19, 2022)

killer b said:


> Fair point - I think one of the other things that has changed post-pandemic is how easy it is to staff these kinds of events - with suitably trained and experienced staff, but also really at all: everyone I know working in hospitality is really struggling to staff their venues fully.
> 
> It feels like there's been an uptick in fatal crush events in the last year, and at least some of them are down to post pandemic staffing issues - probably behavioural changes are involved with those too


agree that there doesn't feel like there are adequate levels of staff in venues (and hospitality) at the moment


----------



## CH1 (Dec 19, 2022)

story said:


> I wouldn’t have a clue about what the general crowd culture is like at a rugby match or at Glyndbourne.


Can't help there either - it's all, picnics and champagne in the grounds of a Sussex  country house, surely.
East Sussex-wise the comparable event might be Lewis Bonfire Night - which seems to have managed for years with light-touch policing.  But it is outside. Even so a lot of the shops get boarded up - presumably there is a risk of windows being stoved in by crowd pressure.

I used to regularly go to the Proms which has incredibly organised queuing.
There was one occasion where there was a major unexpected delay holding up thousands in the queue - 9/11 second concert. Obviously everyone was well aware this was not some sort of gratuitous inefficiency.


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 19, 2022)

A second lady has passed away


----------



## PursuedByBears (Dec 19, 2022)

Gabrielle Hutchinson, 23, was working in a security role at the venue on the night of an Asake gig, the Metropolitan police said.   The article says that the three who were criticaly injured were all in the foyer of the building.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2022)

PursuedByBears said:


> Gabrielle Hutchinson, 23, was working in a security role at the venue on the night of an Asake gig, the Metropolitan police said.   The article says that the three who were criticaly injured were all in the foyer of the building.


That's really, really sad.



> A second woman has died after a crowd crush last week outside the O2 Academy Brixton.
> 
> Gabrielle Hutchinson, 23, was working in a security role at the venue on the night of an Asake gig, the Metropolitan police said.
> 
> ...


----------



## cuppa tee (Dec 19, 2022)

a security worker at the academy is the second person to succumb to their injuries.



			Brixton Academy: Security worker, 23, is second to die after crowd crush at Asake gig


----------



## xenon (Dec 19, 2022)

Just fucking awful.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Dec 19, 2022)

So awful, and sounds like it must have been absolutely fucking terrifying for the people trapped in the foyer.
Still important to remember that the people outside won't have known how bad it was in there - whether or not they should have turned up in the first place is a completely separate matter.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2022)

I was at a sold out show at the Academy two weeks and we had a bit of hassle getting the guest passes sorted, but the young staff were really friendly and helpful. It's hard to imagine how terrifying it must have been for them at this show. 

I fear that the Academy's going to be closed for some time now.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Dec 19, 2022)

killer b said:


> Fair point - I think one of the other things that has changed post-pandemic is how easy it is to staff these kinds of events - with suitably trained and experienced staff, but also really at all: everyone I know working in hospitality is really struggling to staff their venues fully.
> 
> It feels like there's been an uptick in fatal crush events in the last year, and at least some of them are down to post pandemic staffing issues - probably behavioural changes are involved with those too



Yes  - there's a high demand for events, and not enough staff of all kinds for various reasons.

My daughter's 23 & while on UC recently she's been offered security type jobs that she's in no way qualified for (training provided etc, but it still seems to indicate a lot of places are desperate for staff).


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Dec 19, 2022)

story said:


> I reckon it will have been a confluence of factors with some kind of trigger moment rather than one big bad thing that led to an inevitable outcome.
> 
> The cold will have made people impatient and eager to be not stuck outside.
> 
> ...


Really good points there, and plenty of people on this forum have gathered spontaneously (in Brixton & elsewhere) to be part of the crowd & part of the vibe, at demos, celebrations, free parties, festivals, squat parties - many people here know a little bit about how to read a crowd at demo & slip off before being kettled etc, but you can still be a corner away from a potential crush situation & not know its happening.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Dec 19, 2022)

editor said:


> I dunno man, maybe you should have a reread about what other people said on social media at the time, and maybe revisit that video where a guy's boasting about how he got in with a ticket.
> 
> I've already stated that I think that multiple factors were responsible but your attempt to shoehorn it into an exact rerun of Hillsborough are really simplistic.



I've seen at one video, made before it was clear there was a tragedy occurring, where a guy is cheekily boasting he got in for free - from the comments below, it looks like he just meant he was on the guest list, not "storming the doors" - so be careful what you assume even from a video. (We may well not be referring to the same video, of course)


----------



## spitfire (Dec 19, 2022)

editor said:


> I was at a sold out show at the Academy two weeks and we had a bit of hassle getting the guest passes sorted, but the young staff were really friendly and helpful. It's hard to imagine how terrifying it must have been for them at this show.
> 
> I fear that the Academy's going to be closed for some time now.



Yes I've been to a few there recently, sold out IDLES and less hectic Anthrax, both times was a very well organised walk in and the staff were very friendly and efficient. story has nailed my thoughts precisely so I won't repeat what was said.


----------



## AverageJoe (Dec 19, 2022)

thebackrow said:


> Again, pretty much every gig in London manages to get everyone through the doors in time.
> doors open. 7pm
> support 8pm
> main act 9pm (in reality 915)


Unless you're Guns and Roses


----------



## spitfire (Dec 19, 2022)

BBC radio news just said all the seriously injured and dead people were working there that night.


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 19, 2022)

Even worse. So sad.


----------



## GOP (Dec 19, 2022)

editor said:


> There's a lot of elements that caused this fuckup and lots of blame to apportion, but if you think those people who pushed over and trampled on people when they were trying to show their tickets on the door are totally blameless, I'm going to disagree with you.


History has taught us that we need to get away from lazy explanations like this where alleged 'ticketless fans' are blamed for a tragedy. As you say, multiple elements are likely to have caused this incident but casting blame upon young people who were just going to a gig is not on. According to the Guardian yesterday: 'Witnesses to the deadly crush outside the O2 Academy Brixton last Thursday have insisted many fans in the crowd outside had tickets, rejecting reports of a ticketless mob storming the venue.'

Worth reading up on how these crowd crushes happen and that the language used reporting on them apportions blame upon unwitting members of the crowd by using words such as' stampede' and 'trample':









						Crowd crushes: how disasters like Itaewon happen, how can they be prevented, and the ‘stampede’ myth
					

Crowd crushes are wholly preventable, predictable and avoidable, experts say. Here is what we can learn from the Halloween crowd crush in Seoul




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## CH1 (Dec 19, 2022)

GOP said:


> History has taught us that we need to get away from lazy explanations like this where alleged 'ticketless fans' are blamed for a tragedy. As you say, multiple elements are likely to have caused this incident but casting blame upon young people who were just going to a gig is not on. According to the Guardian yesterday: 'Witnesses to the deadly crush outside the O2 Academy Brixton last Thursday have insisted many fans in the crowd outside had tickets, rejecting reports of a ticketless mob storming the venue.'
> 
> Worth reading up on how these crowd crushes happen and that the language used reporting on them apportions blame upon unwitting members of the crowd by using words such as' stampede' and 'trample':
> 
> ...


Do they scan people's rickets & phones on the way in at the Academy?
If they do there ought to be an accurate figure for how many were actually inside when this happened.
Also how many tickets were sold.
Therefore any surplus either must have had duplicate tickets or no tickets??


----------



## Mr paulee (Dec 19, 2022)

GOP said:


> History has taught us that we need to get away from lazy explanations like this where alleged 'ticketless fans' are blamed for a tragedy. As you say, multiple elements are likely to have caused this incident but casting blame upon young people who were just going to a gig is not on. According to the Guardian yesterday: 'Witnesses to the deadly crush outside the O2 Academy Brixton last Thursday have insisted many fans in the crowd outside had tickets, rejecting reports of a ticketless mob storming the venue.'
> 
> Worth reading up on how these crowd crushes happen and that the language used reporting on them apportions blame upon unwitting members of the crowd by using words such as' stampede' and 'trample':
> 
> ...


There is no way the Guardian or the fans outside know the precise status of the ticketing situation of those outside


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 19, 2022)

GOP said:


> History has taught us that we need to get away from lazy explanations like this where alleged 'ticketless fans' are blamed for a tragedy. As you say, multiple elements are likely to have caused this incident but casting blame upon young people who were just going to a gig is not on. According to the Guardian yesterday: 'Witnesses to the deadly crush outside the O2 Academy Brixton last Thursday have insisted many fans in the crowd outside had tickets, rejecting reports of a ticketless mob storming the venue.'
> 
> Worth reading up on how these crowd crushes happen and that the language used reporting on them apportions blame upon unwitting members of the crowd by using words such as' stampede' and 'trample':
> 
> ...


Blame the fans has an unpleasantly familiar ring to it


----------



## A380 (Dec 19, 2022)

It's never one thing in any large incident, accident or disaster. The swiss cheese model is a fairly key way of thinking about these things. You need all the holes to line up. Most of the time they don't, fortunately.  Tragically occasionally they do and people die.


----------



## cuppa tee (Dec 19, 2022)

pictures of the second person to die show them in uniform with a german shepherd dog
on the night there were videos of a gsd running loose in the foyer on twitter
if the handler was badly injured the dog might've escaped.
does anyone know if its normal for dogs to be working at music venues...?
sniffer dogs tend to be spaniels rather than gsd's.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Dec 19, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Do they scan people's rickets & phones on the way in at the Academy?


What do bone disorders have to do with this?


----------



## CH1 (Dec 19, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What do bone disorders have to do with this?


Must be autocorrect!


----------



## David Clapson (Dec 20, 2022)

So were there any fake tickets?


----------



## Smick (Dec 20, 2022)

cuppa tee said:


> pictures of the second person to die show them in uniform with a german shepherd dog
> on the night there were videos of a gsd running loose in the foyer on twitter
> if the handler was badly injured the dog might've escaped.
> does anyone know if its normal for dogs to be working at music venues...?
> sniffer dogs tend to be spaniels rather than gsd's.


I’ve never seen any German Shepherds and I’ve been to the venue countless times, in the main auditorium, backstage bar (which isn’t backstage), dressing rooms, have helped a support act with their set up and strip down.

German Shepherds are fucking weapons. Designed to bite on command, and I’ve read that their bite is excruciating. They’re also a bit erratic. Fair enough to send them into a factory with burglars in it, but they’d rip all round them in a gig, probably scared by the noise. I’m not even sure what the legality would be of private security using them to bite people. 

It’s also very unusual for a security or police dog to be off the lead like that. Looking at the video the dog doesn’t seem to have a lead and, if its handler were incapacitated, I’d expect to see the lead trailing behind.

As regards the picture of the victim, I’d imagine that she was a security professional, trained in a number of different things for different purposes and security dogs were one of them.


----------



## tonysingh (Dec 20, 2022)

Smick said:


> I’ve never seen any German Shepherds and I’ve been to the venue countless times, in the main auditorium, backstage bar (which isn’t backstage), dressing rooms, have helped a support act with their set up and strip down.
> 
> German Shepherds are fucking weapons. Designed to bite on command, and I’ve read that their bite is excruciating. They’re also a bit erratic. Fair enough to send them into a factory with burglars in it, but they’d rip all round them in a gig, probably scared by the noise. I’m not even sure what the legality would be of private security using them to bite people.
> 
> ...



If she was trained in canine security work, that's all she'd be doing. That specific training, plus a dog trained similarly is going to cost a decent five figure sum with more costs ongoing. She'd also be able to command a salary commensurate with that expertise.

Sorry to be boring, it's just a mate runs a kennels breeding and training dogs exactly for this.


----------



## Smick (Dec 20, 2022)

tonysingh said:


> If she was trained in canine security work, that's all she'd be doing. That specific training, plus a dog trained similarly is going to cost a decent five figure sum with more costs ongoing. She'd also be able to command a salary commensurate with that expertise.
> 
> Sorry to be boring, it's just a mate runs a kennels breeding and training dogs exactly for this.


So maybe they were geared up for trouble on the night, which makes it more ridiculous that they can't have mitigated against this issue.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 20, 2022)

They always have a sniffer dog at the Academy for club nights, that go on way past gig opening hours, as they know most people will have class A drugs in their pocket. I have seen security with a range of dogs that are apparently sniffer dogs in recent years, including ones much bigger than the traditional spaniels. 

This was a gig though wasnt it? Maybe even so they considered it high risk enough to have a sniffer dog at the door.


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## nick (Dec 20, 2022)

A380 said:


> It's never one thing in any large incident, accident or disaster. The swiss cheese model is a fairly key way of thinking about these things. You need all the holes to line up. Most of the time they don't, fortunately.  Tragically occasionally they do and people die.


It is a dreadful incident - condolences to all who were affected

There is a lot of speculation about cause, including fake tickets, bad behaviour bad organisation etc.  

However, sometimes thing just go very very wrong, even if behaviour is good.
Here, 173 people died after a child tripped (albeit on a darkened staircase) Bethnal Green 1943


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## Spandex (Dec 20, 2022)

nick said:


> However, sometimes thing just go very very wrong, even if behaviour is good.
> Here, 173 people died after a child tripped (albeit on a darkened staircase) Bethnal Green 1943


That's a good example of having to look at the wider context to understand a disaster and treat official pronouncements with caution.

Bethnal Green Civil Defence got some new anti-aircraft rockets, so they went down to Victoria Park too try them out. The explosions, with no air-raid sirens, no warning, caused people to rush to the tube station for shelter. Someone tripped, people continued moving into the station and 173 people were killed in the crush.

At first it was hushed up. A secret report concluded it had been caused by a panic. A subsequent investigation claimed there had been no panic. Another secret report found that the Civil Defence had been warned of the need for barriers as early as 1941 but they weren't used due to cost. In retrospect, it was avoidable.

My grandad was one of the Civil Defence people at Victoria Park firing the rockets.


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## pinkmonkey (Dec 20, 2022)

I wen to a drum n bass gig at the Drumsheds in Tottenham, the drugs sniffer dog was a German Shepherd.


----------



## cuppa tee (Dec 20, 2022)

tonysingh said:


> If she was trained in canine security work, that's all she'd be doing. That specific training, plus a dog trained similarly is going to cost a decent five figure sum with more costs ongoing. She'd also be able to command a salary commensurate with that expertise.
> 
> Sorry to be boring, it's just a mate runs a kennels breeding and training dogs exactly for this.



....should be pointed out that the cops and others will also use the gsd's close relative the belgian shepherd dog as well.

only putting this forward as the dog in question was presumed to be a police animal on the night.
also i have read that the worst injuries were inflicted in the foyer area where the loose dog was filmed rather than the main arena.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2022)

He. The Met misgendered him.


----------



## A380 (Dec 20, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> At Brixton academy last week apparently.



...


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 20, 2022)

A380 said:


> ...


2 people are dead because people like that woman tried to force their way into the venue, the Police showing force back should not be questioned in this instance. Those people on twitter are wasting their time.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> I wen to a drum n bass gig at the Drumsheds in Tottenham, the drugs sniffer dog was a German Shepherd.


I get the feeling that a lot of these (security/non Police) 'sniffer dogs' are nothing of the sort, and are there to make people shit themselves and use the amnesty boxes, or give up their stash when the dog handler says the 'dog has sniffed you'.


----------



## killer b (Dec 20, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> 2 people are dead because people like that woman tried to force their way into the venue, the Police showing force back should not be questioned in this instance.


While you might have made up your mind what happened here, it's far from uncontested. Plus it's fine to question police violence whatever.


----------



## A380 (Dec 20, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I get the feeling that a lot of these (security/non Police) 'sniffer dogs' are nothing of the sort, and are there to make people shit themselves and use the amnesty boxes, or give up their stash when the dog handler says the 'dog has sniffed you'.


Good luck with that…


----------



## tonysingh (Dec 20, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I get the feeling that a lot of these (security/non Police) 'sniffer dogs' are nothing of the sort, and are there to make people shit themselves and use the amnesty boxes, or give up their stash when the dog handler says the 'dog has sniffed you'.



Absolutely part of their job is to intimidate.


----------



## Smick (Dec 20, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> 2 people are dead because people like that woman tried to force their way into the venue, the Police showing force back should not be questioned in this instance. Those people on twitter are wasting their time.


What's that fucking voiceover as well?

Fuck knows what that video is about. The police could be trying to keep space so paramedics can work on some critically ill / dying people. The woman trying to gain access might be trying to get to a critically ill / dying friend. The whole things seems so fucked that I no longer know who is wrong or right.

All I know is that such a video boils my piss and the person who has put it up should be arrested for malicious communications.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Dec 20, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I get the feeling that a lot of these (security/non Police) 'sniffer dogs' are nothing of the sort, and are there to make people shit themselves and use the amnesty boxes, or give up their stash when the dog handler says the 'dog has sniffed you'.


Oh this one was as my friend unfortunately found out. We had to file past it.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Oh this one was as my friend unfortunately found out. We had to file past it.


You can never tell though, unless its a Police dog (and even they give plenty of false positives), i think they just pull over whoever looks a bit shifty and use the dog as an excuse.


----------



## A380 (Dec 20, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> You can never tell though, unless its a Police dog (and even they give plenty of false positives), i think they just pull over whoever looks a bit shifty and use the dog as an excuse.


I wasn't  aware that there was a difference in the licensing standards for police and private passive detection dogs? Everyday's a school day.

Most of them are trained with tennis balls as a toy though, so tennis coaches do tend to get pulled a lot on the underground. Apparently..


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 21, 2022)

Asake concert crush: what happened on the night at London venue
					

Incident at Brixton O2 Academy led to two deaths, left one in critical condition and many needing hospital care




					www.theguardian.com
				




A much more nuanced picture now emerges of poor / not enough security enabling people to walk in (not push) without tickets, leading to dangerous overcrowding when people with tickets arrived later and tried to get in an already busy venue. Add in lax then heavy-handed policing, and a final flash point in the foyer when people trying to leave the venue after the gig was called off met with the crush outside trying to get in. 

Awful. But not a simple story of ticketless louts forcing their way in, surprise, surprise.


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Asake concert crush: what happened on the night at London venue
> 
> 
> Incident at Brixton O2 Academy led to two deaths, left one in critical condition and many needing hospital care
> ...



I think they must have edited the article now . There is no mention of heavy handed policing, instead the two people quoted seem to be criticising the police for not intervening early enough. 

This wider situation is why it’s never wise to make comments on what has happened until the circumstances have been looked at. The trouble is people then fill the gaps to fit the news cycle.


----------



## thebackrow (Dec 21, 2022)

In the context of people blagging their way in (from the Guardian) 



> Only a week before, after a performance by Fred Again, users to the discussion site Discord said too many people had been allowed in. One user said the number of people admitted was “putting everyone in danger”.
> 
> Another said: “There are massive security flaws at the O2 Brixton show. If you want to get in you can … there’s a team of scalpers that work with the security team at the entrance of the venue.”
> 
> Milly Jenkins said she complained to the venue, the council and the Health and Safety Executive, when her daughter witnessed security staff taking money on the door for admission to the standing area at Slowtai concert in March. She said it was so crowded at least two people fainted and the show was interrupted.


----------



## Diamond (Dec 21, 2022)

Not sure how much new light that article sheds.  I'm pretty sure that the quotes from their main source have been recycled from earlier ones.

And the central thrust "it was blamed on ticketless fans unfairly" seems to be immediately contradicted by the account of "according to some who were there, many people had gained entry to the venue without tickets before the show began."  🤷‍♂️


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 21, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Asake concert crush: what happened on the night at London venue
> 
> 
> Incident at Brixton O2 Academy led to two deaths, left one in critical condition and many needing hospital care
> ...


One of the contributors is the same person they used the other day, who said there were no barriers or barricades, but then complains about being hemmed in by barricades.

Another reckons all the people that broke in did so earlier on in the night, even though he didn't manage to gain access to the venue himself. Did he conduct interviews as people left the venue? 

I hope The Guardian did a bit of due diligence on the accusations made against security, considering 1 of their team is among the dead.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> I'm not doing that. I'm just saying in the light of things like Hillsborough and the confused picture in the immediate aftermath of events like this, it might be wise to be sceptical of the initial reports and narratives pushed by people who stand to gain from it being someone else's fault.


Flavours of 22nd July 2005 all over this


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

Got to get something in the press as soon as possible. Even if it means making stuff up. See Hillsborough onwards, and prior too obvs.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I hope The Guardian did a bit of due diligence


would have been good to see some of that on this thread too tbf


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 21, 2022)

People shouldn't jump to conclusions


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 21, 2022)

the article is a bit confused and seems to be set out to say can we blame the venue/police instead of the punters. not sure a load of random accounts, from people who also had no idea of the full picture of what was going on, really helps anyone.


----------



## David Clapson (Dec 21, 2022)

Blame the fans at Hillsborough = blame the Nigerians at the Academy


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> not sure a load of random accounts, from people who also had no idea of the full picture of what was going on, really helps anyone.


Plenty of random accounts from people who had no idea of the full picture being bandied about as evidence earlier in the thread. What's changed?


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I get the feeling that a lot of these (security/non Police) 'sniffer dogs' are nothing of the sort, and are there to make people shit themselves and use the amnesty boxes, or give up their stash when the dog handler says the 'dog has sniffed you'.


Security firms do tend to use larger dogs for drug detention. They are trained quite easily for that purpose and fairly accurate at detecting the mainstays that people will carry on their person. There is the intimidation factor of using a bigger dog as well because anyone would run and take a bite from a spaniel over a German shepherd any day.

Police sniffers are trained to sniff out a much more diverse number of different things and a lot of the time working in confined spaces which is why they'll use dogs like beagles, springers and the likes. An explosives dog will be trained to find just that and nothing else. A drug dog will mainly work on drugs but also cash. I met one once that could distinguish between both fake and real cash.

The utility dogs like the Belgian Malinois and the German Sheperds can sniff just as well as springers but because of their size and ability to ground someone they will usually be trained to sniff out human scent and trained for attack and restraint/search and rescue. They can also jump a bit higher in pursuit as well. I've seen a malinois go over an 8' fence like it was jumping over a garden gate.

I used to holiday sit a sniffer.  Stupid as fuck and mad for it's ball.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Security firms do tend to use larger dogs for drug detention. They are trained quite easily for that purpose and fairly accurate at detecting the mainstays that people will carry on their person. There is the intimidation factor of using a bigger dog as well because anyone would run and take a bite from a spaniel over a German shepherd any day.



Interesting.  Whenever I've seen sniffer dogs they've been diddy little things with various bystanders fawning over them as the security bods tried to shoo them away.
When they approach people, the people aren't intimidated so much as reacting as someone would if you brought them a puppy.  You get told off for fussing them.

I'd just assumed smaller dogs were better at finding dodgy stuff (maybe because they can get into nooks and crannies etc. eg if checking a car for a bomb), but that's obv wrong.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

8ball said:


> Interesting.  Whenever I've seen sniffer dogs they've been diddy little things with various bystanders fawning over them as the security bods tried to shoo them away.
> I'd just assumed smaller dogs were better at finding dodgy stuff (maybe because they can get into nooks and crannies etc. eg if checking a car for a bomb), but that's obv wrong.


They can all sniff well but can also do it in different ways. Some dogs are better for smelling stuff on the wind, air scent, some better at flowing a distinct trail. Some dogs can find up to 50 distinct smell on single commands. 

I've been to a training facility a few times watching them work. I watched a Spaniel doing a drug exercise one day and the copper hid a bag of coke in the loft of the training house and the dog found it in under 30 seconds from the front door of the gaff.  It just sat there looking up at the hatch. All it wanted was it's ball back


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

Incidentally it's not unheard of these days of criminal gangs using sniffer dogs for obviously beneficial reasons.


----------



## cuppa tee (Dec 21, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Blame the fans at Hillsborough = blame the Nigerians at the Academy



...literally noone has blamed 'nigerians'


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Incidentally it's not unheard of these days of criminal gangs using sniffer dogs for obviously beneficial reasons.


Dogs are now trained to detect digital devices too - presumably because of the wealth of data generated from them which can be used as evidence


----------



## trabuquera (Dec 21, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> not sure a load of random accounts, from people who also had no idea of the full picture of what was going on, really helps anyone.



On this logic no major incident should be reported until the full police investigation / public enquiry has been completed and released. Which would be a rather different vision of what news is. Probably would be more sober and balanced, sure - but not providing current or reasonably recent reporting either. News outlets have to exercise judgement (particularly about quoting incomplete accounts from self-identified witnesses to events - and in avoiding libel by directly putting responsibility on other people only alleged to be there) - but basically going out and finding eyewitnesses is what first-hand journalism is meant to do.


----------



## David Clapson (Dec 21, 2022)

cuppa tee said:


> ...literally noone has blamed 'nigerians'


A lot of black locals will have. Ask around. Nigerians always get criticised. The fake ticket story rings true because whenever Nigerians are involved, there's a scam.


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> ... = blame the Nigerians at the Academy


Can"'t see a post saying that on here?


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> A lot of black locals will have?..


Really?


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

trabuquera said:


> On this logic no major incident should be reported until the full police investigation / public enquiry has been completed and released. Which would be a rather different vision of what news is. Probably would be more sober and balanced, sure - but not providing current or reasonably recent reporting either. News outlets have to exercise judgement (particularly about quoting incomplete accounts from self-identified witnesses to events - and in avoiding libel by directly putting responsibility on other people only alleged to be there) - but basically going out and finding eyewitnesses is what first-hand journalism is meant to do.


I can't see a soultion. Trouble is a headline saying  'tragic situation  caused by plethora of circumstances, many of which won't be fully identified until a detailed forensic investigation is concluded ' isn't going to enamour a hack to their sub editor. Better to blame some one right from the start.


----------



## 74drew (Dec 21, 2022)

Just to add. I was at NIN there earlier this year and we had balcony tickets. No problem at all jibbing in downstairs - ''were you in here before?'' -- ''yeah''


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

A380 said:


> I can't see a soultion. Trouble is a headline saying  'tragic situation  caused by plethora of circumstances, many of which won't be fully identified until a detailed forensic investigation is concluded ' isn't going to enamour a hack to their sub editor. Better to blame some one right from the start.


They did blame someone right from the start, a crowd of riotous fans with no tickets forcing their way into the venue. If it wasn't for reporting like this that tries to find out what actually happened, that would be the story everyone believed. In fact it will be the story most people believe, even with this corrective.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> whenever Nigerians are involved, there's a scam.



 

The Xenforo racist alarm has gone off here can a mod please deactivate it?


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> The Xenforo racist alarm has gone off here can a mod please deactivate it?


I should go back and edit my posts. I didn't realise the poster I was engaging with...


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> The Xenforo racist alarm has gone off here can a mod please deactivate it?


clapson is too ludicrous to bother with tbh.


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> They did blame someone right from the start, a crowd of riotous fans with no tickets forcing their way into the venue. If it wasn't for reporting like this that tries to find out what actually happened, that would be the story everyone believed. In fact it will be the story most people believe, even with this corrective.


Who is 'they'? I must  have missed that.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

A380 said:


> I should go back and edit my posts. I didn't realise the poster I was engaging with...


I'm thinking about throwing out most of my favourite pottery.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

A380 said:


> Who is 'they'? I must  have missed that.


not sure, but it's the story all the news outlets and this thread ran with in the immediate aftermath


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> I'm thinking about throwing out most of my favourite pottery.


Is Emma Bridgewater a racist then?


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> clapson is too ludicrous to bother with tbh.


Really? But do you think we should just roll with his casual racism? Genuine Question, never paid him much attention before? But wtf?


----------



## Athos (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Really? But do you think we should just roll with his casual racism? Genuine Question, never paid him much attention before? But wtf?


I don't his history, but I interpreted that as a summary of an attitude he's criticising.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

A380 said:


> Is Emma Bridgewater a racist then?


Thankfully I've just realised that he's a Clapson and not a Clappison. Thew!, I nearly threw me best Hornsey out then.

Still, I'm not sure it's ok to denigrate and entire nation on some trope like all Nigerians are scammers in 2022??


----------



## nottsgirl (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Thankfully I've just realised that he's a Clapson and not a Clappison. Thew!, I nearly threw me best Hornsey out then.
> 
> Still, I'm not sure it's ok to denigrate and entire nation on some trope like all Nigerians are scammers in 2022??


He’s attributing that attitude to other people. Read what he says.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

Athos said:


> I don't his history, but I interpreted that as a summary of an attitude he's criticising.


That's not how it's written


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> He’s attributing that attitude to other people. Read what he says.


I did.


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Thankfully I've just realised that he's a Clapson and not a Clappison. Thew!, I nearly threw me best Hornsey out then.
> 
> Still, I'm not sure it's ok to denigrate and entire nation on some trope like all Nigerians are scammers in 2022??


Phew.

As to the latter, I know it's not.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Still, I'm not sure it's ok to denigrate and entire nation on some trope like all Nigerians are scammers in 2022??



At least they’re not slavers like the bloody British.


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> He’s attributing that attitude to other people. Read what he says.


Sadly he isn't.


----------



## nottsgirl (Dec 21, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Blame the fans at Hillsborough = blame the Nigerians at the Academy


Here?


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 21, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> Here?


I wasn't responding to that post.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

It's rarely possible to easily discern what Clapson means reliably, so it's best to just discard altogether ime


----------



## A380 (Dec 21, 2022)

Personally, despite getting sucked into it to start, i don't think this is the right thread to deal with his  edge lord stuff.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2022)

A380 said:


> Personally, despite getting sucked into it to start, i don't think this is the right thread to deal with his  edge lord stuff.



Unpopular opinion: The best way to deal with an attention-seeker may not necessarily be to give them attention.


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 21, 2022)

trabuquera said:


> On this logic no major incident should be reported until the full police investigation / public enquiry has been completed and released. Which would be a rather different vision of what news is. Probably would be more sober and balanced, sure - but not providing current or reasonably recent reporting either. News outlets have to exercise judgement (particularly about quoting incomplete accounts from self-identified witnesses to events - and in avoiding libel by directly putting responsibility on other people only alleged to be there) - but basically going out and finding eyewitnesses is what first-hand journalism is meant to do.


No, I just meant this isn't a very good example of the form.


----------



## Diamond (Dec 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> They did blame someone right from the start, a crowd of riotous fans with no tickets forcing their way into the venue. If it wasn't for reporting like this that tries to find out what actually happened, that would be the story everyone believed. In fact it will be the story most people believe, even with this corrective.



To be fair, there are tiktok videos of people at the venue on the night blaming their fellow fans for this behaviour.  Now, they may all be mistaken.  Individual eyewitnesses can get the wrong impression of an event quite easily.  But this stuff is still there and is unlikely to be complete bunk.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

Some people in crowds do behave badly, that's one of the reasons you need adequate crowd control measures.


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 21, 2022)

Based on the video evidence i think I'm pretty happy blaming the behaviour of the crowd, and seeing as this has never happened before in thousands of events run at the venue.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

Yeah, I'm not really expecting you to change your mind. I can't remember the last time something like that happened.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Dec 21, 2022)

Brixton Buzz on Twitter: "The @Lambeth_Council Licensing-Sub Comm will meet at 10am tomorrow. One agenda item: #Brixton Academy. 4 options: a. Modification of the conditions of the licence b. Exclusion of the sale of alcohol; c. Removal of the designated premises supervisor; d. Suspension of the licence." / Twitter

Agenda


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2022)

Tricky Skills said:


> Brixton Buzz on Twitter: "The @Lambeth_Council Licensing-Sub Comm will meet at 10am tomorrow. One agenda item: #Brixton Academy. 4 options: a. Modification of the conditions of the licence b. Exclusion of the sale of alcohol; c. Removal of the designated premises supervisor; d. Suspension of the licence." / Twitter
> 
> Agenda



Nothing that might help with reducing the chance of this happening somewhere else, then.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

8ball said:


> Nothing that might help with reducing the chance of this happening somewhere else, then.


I think it's oppropriate following a fatal crush at a music venue for the the council licensing committee to consider whether it should take action against the venue isn't it? It would be wild if there _wasn't_ an urgent review.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Dec 21, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Police sniffers are trained to sniff out a much more diverse number of different things and a lot of the time working in confined spaces which is why they'll use dogs like beagles, springers and the likes. An explosives dog will be trained to find just that and nothing else. A drug dog will mainly work on drugs but also cash. I met one once that could distinguish between both fake and real cash.


I forgot, my parents daft black lab was a sniffer from wakefield high security prison, he’d been ‘let go’ for being badly behaved. The amount of times he indicated though, to friends who had gear in their pockets,  🤣🤣, he’d not forgotten that bit of the job. My parents had no idea


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> I think it's oppropriate following a fatal crush at a music venue for the the council licensing committee to consider whether it should take action against the venue isn't it? It would be wild if there _wasn't_ an urgent review.



This is fair.  These things are often largely concerned with the apportioning of blame, though.  It can mean important lessons get lost in a cloud of defensiveness.


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

8ball said:


> It can mean important lessons get lost in a cloud of defensiveness.


no shit


----------



## tonysingh (Dec 21, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> I forgot, my parents daft black lab was a sniffer from wakefield high security prison, he’d been ‘let go’ for being badly behaved. The amount of times he indicated though, to friends who had gear in their pockets,  🤣🤣, he’d not forgotten that bit of the job. My parents had no idea



Badly behaved at Wakey? That's impressive tbf


----------



## killer b (Dec 21, 2022)

tbf though, it could simply be that the main lesson to be learned - and I'm willing bet it's something like this - is 'make sure you fulfil the terms of your license and risk assessment and have the required number of suitably trained security staff on duty'.


----------



## David Clapson (Dec 22, 2022)

A380 said:


> Can"'t see a post saying that on here?


There is a world outside the urban75 bubble.  I'm introducing white people to the rude things that different segments of London's black population say about each other. If you don't know any of the local black people that well, you might assume that, for example, West Indians and West Africans agree about everything. They don't. They present a united front when talking to a white audience. But privately they give each other a lot of grief. When they're mean to each other I doubt the white posters here would accuse them of racism. But because I've told you about it, you've got to shoot the messenger, to show how virtuous you are.  

Nigerians do have a terrible reputation for scamming and cheating.  Some of the ones in Brixton prey on each other, quite shamelessly. Corruption is so endemic in Nigeria that it's part of life, for everyone. It's expected. And in London the black communities who've immigrated from other countries are always moaning about Nigerians. It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them.  So when a Nigerian rapper has thousands of people trying to force their way into a gig, with rumours of counterfeit tickets, there's going to be a fair bit of eye-rolling. 

It's a bit sad that so many of the white posters here like to think they know what the black community are thinking.  Your accepted information sources are Fleet Street journalists, Twitter and urban.  They're 99.999% white.

Just as an experiment, try to get to know a Jamaican and a Nigerian. Get them to trust you enough to explain where they disagree about colonialism.


----------



## cesare (Dec 22, 2022)

No point.


----------



## A380 (Dec 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There is a world outside the urban75 bubble.  I'm introducing white people to the rude things that different segments of London's black population say about each other. If you don't know any of the local black people that well, you might assume that, for example, West Indians and West Africans agree about everything. They don't. They present a united front when talking to a white audience. But privately they give each other a lot of grief. When they're mean to each other I doubt the white posters here would accuse them of racism. But because I've told you about it, you've got to shoot the messenger, to show how virtuous you are.
> 
> Nigerians do have a terrible reputation for scamming and cheating.  Some of the ones in Brixton prey on each other, quite shamelessly. Corruption is so endemic in Nigeria that it's part of life, for everyone. It's expected. And in London the black communities who've immigrated from other countries are always moaning about Nigerians. It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them.  So when a Nigerian rapper has thousands of people trying to force their way into a gig, with rumours of counterfeit tickets, there's going to be a fair bit of eye-rolling.
> 
> ...


Jesus.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 22, 2022)

Are we livestreaming Alf Garnett's final stroke or something? 🤷


----------



## Smick (Dec 22, 2022)

74drew said:


> Just to add. I was at NIN there earlier this year and we had balcony tickets. No problem at all jibbing in downstairs - ''were you in here before?'' -- ''yeah''


I had friends who went to see Smashing Pumpkins in Dublin in the mid 90s. Seated tickets were more expensive than standing tickets so seated fans were allowed to go to the floor. Standing tickets realising it was a bit hairy on the floor tried to get up to the seated area and were told that they didn't have the right ticket. Then a crush occurred and someone died.

That's 30 years ago. You'd think lessons would have been learned by now.


----------



## Supine (Dec 22, 2022)

A380 said:


> Jesus.



I don’t think he is


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

Supine said:


> I don’t think he is



“And lo, the Lord took his whip and drove the Nigerian money-lenders from the Temple.

For they were sore corrupt, and not FSA compliant…”

_Bollocks 14:32_


----------



## Smick (Dec 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them.


That's straight out of the BNP handbook. 

However many Nigerians there are in London, there are fewer of them than there are English. Fewer Nigerian criminals, fewer Nigerian thugs, fewer Nigerian everything than there are English. 

The *nationality *of the concert goers cannot be blamed for the tragedy that night.


----------



## BusLanes (Dec 22, 2022)

Looks like it's had its license suspended, according to Twitter/bbc


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There is a world outside the urban75 bubble.  I'm introducing white people to the rude things that different segments of London's black population say about each other.


^ 'this is public service racism'


----------



## editor (Dec 22, 2022)

Brixton Academy to close for 28 days









						Lambeth tells Brixton O2 Academy to close for 28 days with ‘risk to the public high’ after two fatalities at Asake concert
					

Lambeth Council’s Licensing Sub-Committee has ordered the O2 Brixton Academy to close for 28 days following the deaths of Rebecca Ikumelo and Gaby Hutchinson during a gig by the artist Asake …



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2022)

Smick said:


> That's straight out of the BNP handbook.
> 
> However many Nigerians there are in London, there are fewer of them than there are English. Fewer Nigerian criminals, fewer Nigerian thugs, fewer Nigerian everything than there are English.
> 
> The *nationality *of the concert goers cannot be blamed for the tragedy that night.


There seems to be quite a bit of wilful misreading of what David Clapson has written, because while some of what he says might be speculative nonsense in itself, he is clearly not trying to blame london Nigerians himself - his whole point is about why that group might be unfairly scapegoated because of stereotypes attributed to them. At least as far as I can see anyway.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

BusLanes said:


> Looks like it's had its license suspended, according to Twitter/bbc



Seems reasonable not to want any big events going on there until things are properly investigated.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2022)

8ball said:


> Seems reasonable not to want any big events going on there until things are properly investigated.


or indeed any events going on there


----------



## A380 (Dec 22, 2022)

8ball said:


> Seems reasonable not to want any big events going on there until things are properly investigated.


So. 47 Luxury flats with concierge available early 2024 it is then.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

A380 said:


> So. 47 Luxury flats with concierge available early 2024 it is then.



612 flats if the "interest rates" thread is anything to go by.


----------



## edcraw (Dec 22, 2022)

Seems the right decision to close until they can show they can deal with these sort of situations. Although the incident in 2020 is a bit worrying if the venue didn’t handle it correctly and learn from it.


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 22, 2022)

Brixton Academy has licence suspended after two people die in crush
					

Venue is closed until 16 January when a full hearing will take place after fans at Asake gig were trapped in a crowd surge




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## CH1 (Dec 22, 2022)

I'm a bit surprised about the 4th Feb 2020 incident.
I had a run of three family funerals staring 30th December and ending in late February. Whilst there wasn't a lockdown in February they were setting rules like not more than 30 family members at a funeral.
What happened about mass entertainment venues then - and when?


----------



## killer b (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I'm a bit surprised about the 4th Feb 2020 incident.
> I had a run of three family funerals staring 30th December and ending in late February. Whilst there wasn't a lockdown in February they were setting rules like not more than 30 family members at a funeral.
> What happened about mass entertainment venues then - and when?


you're a year out: feb 2020 was before covid had really set in


----------



## edcraw (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I'm a bit surprised about the 4th Feb 2020 incident.
> I had a run of three family funerals staring 30th December and ending in late February. Whilst there wasn't a lockdown in February they were setting rules like not more than 30 family members at a funeral.
> What happened about mass entertainment venues then - and when?


That’s not right is it? Lockdown was 23rd March and gigs were going on pretty much until then.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Dec 22, 2022)

What happened in Feb 2020? 
Apologies if I've missed something on the thread


----------



## CH1 (Dec 22, 2022)

edcraw said:


> That’s not right is it? Lockdown was 23rd March and gigs were going on pretty much until then.


Its not right that I'm a year out. I was asking about "gigs" - and you say they were unaffected until 23rd March - even though people were being warned off funerals by February.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 22, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> What happened in Feb 2020?
> Apologies if I've missed something on the thread


The Police produced an email at the Licensing Hearing this morning referring to a crush at the Academy on 3rd Feb. I think I misquoted the date. Its mentioned in the Buzz article, which I found comprehensive and helpful.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> The Police produced an email at the Licensing Hearing this morning referring to a crush at the Academy on 3rd Feb. I think I misquoted the date. Its mentioned in the Buzz article, which I found comprehensive and helpful.



Do we know what gig it was though? Just curious.


----------



## killer b (Dec 22, 2022)

The email was on the 3rd Feb, so the event was presumably in the days beforehand, though they didn't say which one. 

most likely Naira Marley I guess from these? https://www.concertarchives.org/venues/o2-academy-brixton--9?page=20#concert-table


----------



## edcraw (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Its not right that I'm a year out. I was asking about "gigs" - and you say they were unaffected until 23rd March - even though people were being warned off funerals by February.


Really don’t recall that. Most were blissfully unaware well in to March as I remember it.


----------



## xenon (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Its not right that I'm a year out. I was asking about "gigs" - and you say they were unaffected until 23rd March - even though people were being warned off funerals by February.



Gigs were fine. I went to 2 the weekend of 6th March. One at Academy Bristol.


----------



## killer b (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Its not right that I'm a year out. I was asking about "gigs" - and you say they were unaffected until 23rd March - even though people were being warned off funerals by February.


You're right, sorry about that: there were no restrictions of people's movements (other than travelling to or from China) in February though.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 22, 2022)

killer b said:


> The email was on the 3rd Feb, so the event was presumably in the days beforehand, though they didn't say which one.
> 
> most likely Naira Marley I guess from these? https://www.concertarchives.org/venues/o2-academy-brixton--9?page=20#concert-table


Looks like another Nigerian artist. Ticketing/staffing/crowd control issues?
Wonder what the email said?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 22, 2022)

On the odd occasion I go to a concert, I'm usually amongst the last going in, and coming out.

I went to see Floyd at the old Wembley stadium in 1988. 

Coming out, the crowd funnels into the exits, the further on you go, the closer the crush of people. I had my arms down, and couldn't get them up again, I'm quite sure if I had died, i would have been carried forward by the crush of people. I'm not a small person, and was at the time a serving soldier, so quite fit. I'm not generally claustrophobic, but that experience terrified me. The thought that if you went down, you would be trampled to death was horrible. I don't think I've ever been so frightened, and felt so helpless in my life. What made it more dreadful was the replay in my head of the comments of a friend who was caught up in the Ibrox disaster in 1971, what he had described was happening to me.

Funny that, how something and nothing can still be crystal clear in your mind thirty odd years later.









						1971 Ibrox disaster - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> On the odd occasion I go to a concert, I'm usually amongst the last going in, and coming out.
> 
> I went to see Floyd at the old Wembley stadium in 1988.
> 
> ...



It's A380's swiss cheese model again.
I think most of us will have been in cases where at least a couple of the holes have lined up.


----------



## Diamond (Dec 22, 2022)

teuchter said:


> There seems to be quite a bit of wilful misreading of what David Clapson has written, because while some of what he says might be speculative nonsense in itself, he is clearly not trying to blame london Nigerians himself - his whole point is about why that group might be unfairly scapegoated because of stereotypes attributed to them. At least as far as I can see anyway.



Yes, this is how I read it too.  Tensions between West African and Caribbean communities are also well known in London, particularly in the schools.  Partly to do with class, partly to do with history (the intl slave trade was a European thing but enslavement was largely a local affair).


----------



## killer b (Dec 22, 2022)

I'm sure there's tensions between west african and caribbean communities in London, but it's not totally clear what relevance they would have to this thread.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Dec 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There is a world outside the urban75 bubble.  I'm introducing white people to the rude things that different segments of London's black population say about each other. If you don't know any of the local black people that well, you might assume that, for example, West Indians and West Africans agree about everything. They don't. They present a united front when talking to a white audience. But privately they give each other a lot of grief. When they're mean to each other I doubt the white posters here would accuse them of racism. But because I've told you about it, you've got to shoot the messenger, to show how virtuous you are.
> 
> Nigerians do have a terrible reputation for scamming and cheating.  Some of the ones in Brixton prey on each other, quite shamelessly. Corruption is so endemic in Nigeria that it's part of life, for everyone. It's expected. And in London the black communities who've immigrated from other countries are always moaning about Nigerians. It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them.  So when a Nigerian rapper has thousands of people trying to force their way into a gig, with rumours of counterfeit tickets, there's going to be a fair bit of eye-rolling.
> 
> ...


Strangely, every poster on U75 also lives in the world outside of the U75 'bubble'. I can't recall any of my Nigerian colleagues scamming me or each other.


----------



## cesare (Dec 22, 2022)

teuchter said:


> There seems to be quite a bit of wilful misreading of what David Clapson has written, because while some of what he says might be speculative nonsense in itself, he is clearly not trying to blame london Nigerians himself - his whole point is about why that group might be unfairly scapegoated because of stereotypes attributed to them. At least as far as I can see anyway.


I didn't read:



> _Nigerians do have a terrible reputation for scamming and cheating. Some of the ones in Brixton prey on each other, quite shamelessly. Corruption is so endemic in Nigeria that it's part of life, for everyone. It's expected. And in London the black communities who've immigrated from other countries are always moaning about Nigerians. It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them. So when a Nigerian rapper has thousands of people trying to force their way into a gig, with rumours of counterfeit tickets, there's going to be a fair bit of eye-rolling._



as a commentary on unfair scapegoating.


----------



## thebackrow (Dec 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Its not right that I'm a year out. I was asking about "gigs" - and you say they were unaffected until 23rd March - even though people were being warned off funerals by February.


Last gig I went to pre-Covid was 7th March at the Electric Ballroom.  There were a literally one or two people in the audience with masks on and it was packed and sweaty.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> They present a united front when talking to a white audience.


This is such a bizarre statement: Who is this White Audience where does it exist? 
People diss Nigerians all day long, in just the same words that you used to do so, white people do it, Jamaicans do it, Ghanaians do it, this is common knowledge so what on earth is your point. 
But then again based on past experience of your posts, silly question never mind.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

bimble said:


> People diss Nigerians all day long, in just the same words that you used to do so, white people do it, Jamaicans do it, Ghanaians do it...



This is a London thing, I guess.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 22, 2022)

White British scammers will just be called scammers though. Not White British scammers.


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## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> White British scammers will just be called scammers though. Not White British scammers.



A lot of them get called MPs.


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## bimble (Dec 22, 2022)

8ball said:


> This is a London thing, I guess.


nope, I mean maybe Clapson is talking about London but 'those Nigerians they're all untrustworthy' is something i've heard plenty elsewhere too (in jamaica and in ghana, is what i was thinking of, as well as down the road here in stupid rural england).
Anyway its the "They present a united front when talking to a white audience" bit of his post that i found particularly weird what is that where's it coming from.


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## 8ball (Dec 22, 2022)

bimble said:


> nope, I mean maybe Clapson is talking about London but 'those Nigerians they're all untrustworthy' is something i've heard plenty elsewhere too (in jamaica and in ghana, is what i was thinking of).



Oh, right.  I was just talking about in the UK.


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## maomao (Dec 22, 2022)

I've heard it from Nigerians themselves. I once lent a Nigerian colleague two hundred quid (very long time ago, I wouldn't have it to lend these days) and when he came round my flat to pay me back I just went to pocket the money and he told me that I had to count it because he was Nigerian and I would be cheated otherwise (which sounds funny but I suppose in reality he felt the need to point out his honesty because of the stereotype). Still has fuck all to do with the sad events of the other night which it seems were largely the venue's fault.


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## teuchter (Dec 22, 2022)

cesare said:


> I didn't read:
> 
> 
> 
> as a commentary on unfair scapegoating.


I read it in the context of where that particular discussion started, back at this post, and the replies to it:



David Clapson said:


> Blame the fans at Hillsborough = blame the Nigerians at the Academy



But also in the context of some of the videos/posts popping up on social media, some of which have appeared on this thread, but others haven't. And maybe what you might see depends a bit on where you are, for example those of us who live around Brixton may see a slightly different selection of things to those who don't and are largely following this via guardian articles.


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## Mr paulee (Dec 22, 2022)

Talking to an architect friend of mine regarding this incident and he stated (without looking at building schematics obviously ) a possible solution could be that the entrance could be redesigned and moved around corner into the lane.
Would allow for wider points of egress etc


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## edcraw (Dec 22, 2022)

Alexandra Palace checks tickets at a perimeter fence before getting to the entrance. Maybe something like that could work further down Astoria Walk.


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## Riklet (Dec 22, 2022)

What is the relevance of Nigerians? Theres 250 million odd Nigerians in Nigeria alone, how can we generalise about such a massive country?

Even if some of the audience was Nigerian, most werent. Most were from London, surprise surprise. And most didnt try and ram their way in killing 2 people in the process, but a few did. It's shit the venue has closed as its not their fault IMO.


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## edcraw (Dec 22, 2022)

A crowd can hardly ever be held responsible for these kind of incidents- it’s nearly always down to how the venue manages it. Some of the commentary really smacks of racism.


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## Supine (Dec 22, 2022)

edcraw said:


> A crowd can hardly ever be held responsible for these kind of incidents- it’s nearly always down to how the venue manages it. Some of the commentary really smacks of racism.



This thread is speculation so far. If it’s true lots of people tried to force their way in then yes, they need to take some blame. It could be poor security or something else. 

I’m sure the cops are going through cctv and social media to find out what actually happened.


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## friedaweed (Dec 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There is a world outside the urban75 bubble.  I'm introducing white people to the rude things that different segments of London's black population say about each other. If you don't know any of the local black people that well, you might assume that, for example, West Indians and West Africans agree about everything. They don't. They present a united front when talking to a white audience. But privately they give each other a lot of grief. When they're mean to each other I doubt the white posters here would accuse them of racism. But because I've told you about it, you've got to shoot the messenger, to show how virtuous you are.
> 
> Nigerians do have a terrible reputation for scamming and cheating.  Some of the ones in Brixton prey on each other, quite shamelessly. Corruption is so endemic in Nigeria that it's part of life, for everyone. It's expected. And in London the black communities who've immigrated from other countries are always moaning about Nigerians. It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them.  So when a Nigerian rapper has thousands of people trying to force their way into a gig, with rumours of counterfeit tickets, there's going to be a fair bit of eye-rolling.
> 
> ...


What a crock of shite.


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## edcraw (Dec 22, 2022)

Supine said:


> This thread is speculation so far. If it’s true lots of people tried to force their way in then yes, they need to take some blame. It could be poor security or something else.
> 
> I’m sure the cops are going through cctv and social media to find out what actually happened.


Even if people tried to force their way in (which seems unlikely and no evidence) it’s still up to the venue to have measures in place to stop that.

Always lots of misinformation in these situations and people should be very wary of jumping to conclusions.


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## friedaweed (Dec 22, 2022)

teuchter said:


> There seems to be quite a bit of wilful misreading of what David Clapson has written, because while some of what he says might be speculative nonsense in itself, he is clearly not trying to blame london Nigerians himself - his whole point is about why that group might be unfairly scapegoated because of stereotypes attributed to them. At least as far as I can see anyway.


Repeating a stereotype is perpetuating a myth. When the same idiot says he's "educating white folk" he's lost his footing to be taken seriously. You call it wilful misreading, I say it's racist trolling. He's not the messiah, he's a racist cunt. HTH


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## Tricky Skills (Dec 23, 2022)

Here's the full Determination from the Licensing Sub-Committee meeting held yesterday.


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## nottsgirl (Dec 23, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There is a world outside the urban75 bubble.  I'm introducing white people to the rude things that different segments of London's black population say about each other. If you don't know any of the local black people that well, you might assume that, for example, West Indians and West Africans agree about everything. They don't. They present a united front when talking to a white audience. But privately they give each other a lot of grief. When they're mean to each other I doubt the white posters here would accuse them of racism. But because I've told you about it, you've got to shoot the messenger, to show how virtuous you are.
> 
> Nigerians do have a terrible reputation for scamming and cheating.  Some of the ones in Brixton prey on each other, quite shamelessly. Corruption is so endemic in Nigeria that it's part of life, for everyone. It's expected. And in London the black communities who've immigrated from other countries are always moaning about Nigerians. It's not just the scams, it's partly because there are so many of them.  So when a Nigerian rapper has thousands of people trying to force their way into a gig, with rumours of counterfeit tickets, there's going to be a fair bit of eye-rolling.
> 
> ...


Maybe not.


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## Gramsci (Dec 24, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I read it in the context of where that particular discussion started, back at this post, and the replies to it:
> 
> 
> 
> But also in the context of some of the videos/posts popping up on social media, some of which have appeared on this thread, but others haven't. And maybe what you might see depends a bit on where you are, for example those of us who live around Brixton may see a slightly different selection of things to those who don't and are largely following this via guardian articles.



I live in Brixton.

What exactly is the "different selection of things" you are referring to?


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## Gramsci (Dec 24, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I read it in the context of where that particular discussion started, back at this post, and the replies to it:
> 
> 
> 
> But also in the context of some of the videos/posts popping up on social media, some of which have appeared on this thread, but others haven't. And maybe what you might see depends a bit on where you are, for example those of us who live around Brixton may see a slightly different selection of things to those who don't and are largely following this via guardian articles.



As Ive been around Brixton is my local shops today etc I have not heard any comments so far on this.

Its a tragic event. And perhaps local people are treating it as such. What ever their background is.

Apart from that most people in my area are trying get to on with their lives. Which is not easy at the moment with cost of living etc.

The Council are doing a review of license. Hopefully what happened will be clarified with a proper investigation.

I could be wrong but this does not seem to be to me about Nigerians vs Afro Caribbeans.


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## plurker (Yesterday at 8:05 PM)

I almost don't want to bring this thread back up, given the tangential argument, but the license  suspension has now been extended by three months









						Brixton concert crush venue to remain closed - BBC News
					

The venue is shut for a further three months after two people died during an Asake gig in December.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## cuppa tee (Yesterday at 8:11 PM)

plurker said:


> I almost don't want to bring this thread back up, given the tangential argument, but the license  suspension has now been extended by three months
> 
> 
> 
> ...



.....academy starting to look more like a development opportunity then.


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## spitfire (Yesterday at 8:47 PM)

spitfire said:


> BBC radio news just said all the seriously injured and dead people were working there that night.


This proved to be untrue I think. Apologies.


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## Winot (Yesterday at 11:16 PM)

plurker said:


> I almost don't want to bring this thread back up, given the tangential argument, but the license  suspension has now been extended by three months
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bugger. I saw that Dry Cleaning had shifted to the Roundhouse on 3 March so feared the worst.


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## Gramsci (Yesterday at 11:59 PM)

plurker said:


> I almost don't want to bring this thread back up, given the tangential argument, but the license  suspension has now been extended by three months
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually it hasn't. The decision will be on Monday. So no it has not been extended yet.



> The authority's licensing sub-committee is due to meet on Monday to decide on the future of the venue.
> It is understood the council was likely to extend the licence suspension for a further three months.


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## edcraw (Today at 4:44 AM)

cuppa tee said:


> .....academy starting to look more like a development opportunity then.


Think this is very unlikely. Can’t think of any similar venues where that’s happened.


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## nick (Today at 10:43 AM)

Although remember several years ago it was almost converted (puntastic) into a Brazilian Mega church. 
So there is always that  "opportunity" as I guess it would have different licencing requirements


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## Rushy (Today at 10:45 AM)

nick said:


> Although remember several years ago it was almost converted (puntastic) into a Brazilian Mega church.


This would appear to have passed me by ...


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## CH1 (Today at 10:54 AM)

nick said:


> Although remember several years ago it was almost converted (puntastic) into a Brazilian Mega church.
> So there is always that  "opportunity" as I guess it would have different licencing requirements


Is the current UCKG licenced? They were refused planning permission in the 1990s - but never moved. Presumably it's now an established use.


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## cuppa tee (Today at 11:07 AM)

edcraw said:


> Think this is very unlikely. Can’t think of any similar venues where that’s happened.


yeah, a bit pessimistic maybe but given the venue was shut for a good chunk of the last three years i dont think another lay off will do much for long term sustainability. and events on the night were pretty much unique as well, so things can happen without precedence.


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## Rushy (Today at 12:07 PM)

cuppa tee said:


> ... and events on the night were pretty much unique as well, so things can happen without precedence.


Didn't information at the last hearing suggest that the events weren't entirely unique and that guidance last time (stronger doors?) had not been heeded and for this reason the latest events merited a more cautious stance?


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## cuppa tee (Today at 12:25 PM)

Rushy said:


> Didn't information at the last hearing suggest that the events weren't entirely unique and that guidance last time (stronger doors?) had not been heeded and for this reason the latest events merited a more cautious stance?


you're right one precedent was brought up, but i meant in terms of mayhem, death, and coverage. dunno how many acts the academy put on a year, most dont have this level of negative outcome for paying customers or the venue, even the artist in question put on 3 nights in the same week with no reports of aggro...


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## Sasaferrato (Today at 2:08 PM)

cuppa tee said:


> you're right one precedent was brought up, but i meant in terms of mayhem, death, and coverage. dunno how many acts the academy put on a year, most dont have this level of negative outcome for paying customers or the venue, even the artist in question put on 3 nights in the same week with no reports of aggro...



All it takes is a few idiots to start shoving, other idiots follow, and the people at the front get crushed.

One would think that staggered barriers to slow down forward movement would be the answer, if there is room in front of the venue.


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## thebackrow (Today at 3:27 PM)

People died.  They're not going to be allowed to reopen until Police/Licencing authority are confidant than enough has been changed to stop it happening again.  

And that feels difficult to me as I don't actually see that their entrance is much different to many other gig venues.  I'm not sure it's a matter of door strength as if the doors are open and a crowd tries to rush them you've not going to be able to get them closed.  If a crowd tried to rush the doors at, say, the Electric or the Shepherds Bush Empire what would there be to stop the same thing happening? 

A whole load of London gig venues are old theatres with doors opening onto a small lobby and (necessary for ticket control) pinch points before the main hall.   they open directly onto public pavement and any queuing is does with temp metal barriers (just like the academy) and people queuing up down the side of the building (just like the academy).  

I don't know if there were issues with corrupt security - but that wouldn't be something that uniquely affects the academy either.


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## thebackrow (Today at 3:29 PM)

Sasaferrato said:


> One would think that staggered barriers to slow down forward movement would be the answer, if there is room in front of the venue.


There are normally barriers round the front and security controlling the queue down the side so that theres no crush at the door (with pre checks of tickets down the queue before the ticket is scanned at the door itself).  Again, pretty much the same as any other venue I've ever been to.
From the pictures/video it looks like that all broke down.  But if people started rushing the door or climbing over barriers it would at any other venue as well.


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## felonius monk (Today at 3:41 PM)

For some reason the Academy's entrance is pinched more than most (eg Hammersmith Apollo). I've been to a few gigs over the years at the Academy where the funneling to leave can just sweep people along until you get to the external lobby. Couple that with people trying to come the other way.


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