# London Mayday 09 - Guilty Until Proven Innocent



## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 20, 2009)

Hello,

I thought this should probably have a thread of it's own.

Space Hijackers Mayday at the Bank of England

http://www.spacehijackers.org/html/welcome.html







GUILTY
A CELEBRATION OF THE POLICE STATE

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR FREEDOM IN AN AGE OF TERROR! GIVE UP THE FIGHT AND CELEBRATE OUR STATUS AS HAPPY PRISONERS. HOW MANY MORE MUST DIE BEFORE WE LEARN TO DO AS WE'RE TOLD?

TURN YOURSELF IN AT

THE BANK OF ENGLAND
FOUR MINUTES PAST THE STROKE OF FIVE
MAYDAY

CONVICTS - Dress in your best stripes and come on down to the excercise yard to walk in a circle with your fellow inmates. Sneak some contraband (Sound Systems, Moonshine, Cake, Kettles, Party Games) Past the guards

POLICE - Dress in high-vis yellow or riot black. Encircle the prisoners to piss them off and start some fights. Accept no food or drinks from the convicts because you never know what might be in it. If you plan to join in the "clubbing", make sure you remove your ID numbers and bring covering for your face.

IF THEY WANT A NATION OF CRIMINALS THEN LET'S LET THEM HAVE IT...

----
The more the merrier welcome, bring ideas, inspiration, love & rage


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## Kid_Eternity (Apr 20, 2009)

Seriously, who comes up with this crap? Drew in stripes and give yourself in...?


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## _float_ (Apr 20, 2009)

That's not a very constructive comment. Space hijackers come up with tons of great stuff. Your contribution or great idea? You haven't even managed to say exactly why you don't like this.

Anyway, last time round they got done for dressing "like police" (ys rly!) so they are maybe on safer ground with doing the opposite this time round.


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## dylans (Apr 21, 2009)

I think its a great idea. I will try and be there. The police will inevitably go for kettling again. Imagine how it will look with a large group of people dressed as convicts in the middle. It will make a great statement


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## ToothlessFerret (Apr 21, 2009)

I'll try for it - booked off a day from work


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## rollinder (Apr 21, 2009)

^ great idea - shame your tank got nicked


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## joevsimp (Apr 21, 2009)

Willco if i can make it up from brighton, there's meant to be some mayday stuff on down here as well though

*goes off to have a butchers at schnews*

e2a, its on monday the 4th in brighton, a reclaim the streets-type dealie aimed at EDO/MBM


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## dylans (Apr 21, 2009)

oh, are you the tank guys? you are the heroes of the day. Brilliant. For a week the press was publishing rumours that the anarchists had a tank and then YOU TURN UP IN A TANK absolutely brilliant. Everyone could see the cops scratching their heads trying to find something to bust you with. Standing ovation . Absolutely fucking brilliant.


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## PeterTCA (Apr 21, 2009)

Not actually a tank but a SARACAN armoured vehicle once made by Avis. It can run even if two of its wheels are disabled (i.e. mines). If driven with the issued periscopes it's virtually impossible to disable the crew. It also came with eight smoke-bomb projectiles. Scary stuff.


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## jæd (Apr 21, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Seriously, who comes up with this crap? Drew in stripes and give yourself in...?



People who think that shouting slogans at a bank while the peeps in charge are in the South of France for a long weekend will actually change things...? Expect another re-run of G20. (Police violence, something smashed up, good photos, but nothing achieved). I will be OUTRAGED....! at something on Tuesday morning I expect...

TBH, it means I can probably skive off Friday if I spin this the right way.


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## jæd (Apr 21, 2009)

"...and join us to dance at the doorsteps of capital and laugh in their face."

Grammar seems to be an early victim of the police brutality.


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2009)

Space Hijackers are damn good stuntists.  If nothing else, they've provided many reasons to raise a smile, which ain't a bad thing.

This, fr'instance, was brilliant.


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## Fuck Bees! (Apr 21, 2009)

PeterTCA said:


> It also came with eight smoke-bomb projectiles. Scary stuff.


No, it really didn't. 

I don't think this has been thought about properly though, it's reaaaaly hard to dance with a ball and chain


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

dylans said:


> oh, are you the tank guys? you are the heroes of the day. Brilliant. For a week the press was publishing rumours that the anarchists had a tank and then YOU TURN UP IN A TANK absolutely brilliant. Everyone could see the cops scratching their heads trying to find something to bust you with. Standing ovation . Absolutely fucking brilliant.



And in the end the only thing they could bust them with was the uniforms. The tank was roadworthy


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## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

PeterTCA! said:


> It also came with eight smoke-bomb projectiles. Scary stuff.





Fuck Bees! said:


> No, it really didn't.



Yes, it really did. I know, I wired the sidelights into the smoke grenade launch switches. Not to launch grenades, silly, to switch on the lights. (Switches now routed normally, I must add, officer!)

Don't forget to bring a kettle to this one, in case of emergency.


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## berniedicters (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> And in the end the only thing they could bust them with was the uniforms. The tank was roadworthy


So what happened to it in the end?

And what was the issue with the uniforms? I just remember glimpsing something on the news with a bunch of perplexed filth wandering around an armoured car scratching their heads, and never really followed up on it...


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

agnesdavies said:


> So what happened to it in the end?
> 
> And what was the issue with the uniforms? I just remember glimpsing something on the news with a bunch of perplexed filth wandering around an armoured car scratching their heads, and never really followed up on it...




agent_undecided (the poster just before you) seems much better placed to answer that one  And s/he's still on-line ...

My own understanding is that some of them were nicked for having 'uniforms' that resembled police uniforms. The OB took some time to think of that as a reason for nicking them once the tank passed the roadworthiness checks though.


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## berniedicters (Apr 21, 2009)

It struck me that one of the most powerful ways to protest and overcome the police's heavy-handed approach here _is_ the use of ridicule. The armoured car thing's a great example - camera-friendly, and it clearly caused a few splinters to form in the heads of the coppers who had come expecting the kind of language they understand - aggression and violence - and got instead paradox and humour.

Would, for example, pink police uniforms be regarded as bannable? I love the idea of everyone dressing up as criminals, too, and I'm sure that, with a bit of thought, we could come up with all kinds of loony stunts that would still make the point, but would show the police up in the worst light possible when they decided they were going to get heavy... 

Of course, they'll probably still wade in. But my bet is that future protests are going to be increasingly well covered by cameras, both media and those of the youtube generation...


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> agent_undecided (the poster just before you) seems much better placed to answer that one  And s/he's still on-line ...
> 
> My own understanding is that some of them were nicked for having 'uniforms' that resembled police uniforms. The OB took some time to think of that as a reason for nicking them once the tank passed the roadworthiness checks though.



Not likely to get an answer at present:



> Ladies and Gentlemen, During the G20 protests in the city 11 of the Space Hijackers were arrested whilst taking part in one of our actions. They have now all been freed on bail.
> 
> Until this matter is sorted out, our solicitors have advised us to make a "NO COMMENT" report on this action...



http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/html/welcome.html


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

While we've got a Space Hijacker handy, perhaps (s)he'd care to explain how they got this reputation for standing to one side and doing fuck all while the police beat and arrest people who are participating in their stunts?


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## theant (Apr 21, 2009)

Apart from one agent who practically makes a career out of getting himself arrested and taking the police to court as often as possible (sorry if you're listening dear, you know who you are) as far as I know this has been our first actual arrest that didn't result in almost immediate release by confused police. It's just so difficult to look good arresting a man dressed in excellent eighteenth century drag. I'm not sure how the reputation has come about...


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## free spirit (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> While we've got a Space Hijacker handy, perhaps (s)he'd care to explain how they got this reputation for standing to one side and doing fuck all while the police beat and arrest people who are participating in their stunts?


have they?

perhaps it'd be better for you gave some specific examples for the hijackers to give their side to rather than just slapping up a blanket slur.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

free spirit said:


> have they?
> 
> perhaps it'd be better for you gave some specific examples for the hijackers to give their side to rather than just slapping up a blanket slur.


I'm only going on what I've heard from people who've been arrested at some of their daft stunts and had exactly that happen.  That idiotic thing where you all dressed up in ill-fitting suits to freak out the normals or something would be a prime example.


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## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

@Cesare, corax - NO COMMENT!

@In BLOOM It's typical of Space Hijackers Criticism (tm) that you don't cite specifics! Are you thinking of the arrests at Canary Wharf two years ago?


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## theant (Apr 21, 2009)

See here for a full report of Mayday 2007 at Canary Wharf

http://www.spacehijackers.org/html/projects/mayday07/report.html

Arrest 1 - The agent mentioned above. We have standing orders from him not to get involved. He knows what he is doing.
Arrest 2 - While the rest of us were dressed in our best suits to blend in with the locals, partying and encouraging them to join us a small group turned up in their standard black with covered faces and red and black flags, swearing at and goading the police. These were the two later arrested.


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## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I'm only going on what I've heard from people who've been arrested at some of their daft stunts and had exactly that happen.  That idiotic thing where you all dressed up in ill-fitting suits to freak out the normals or something would be a prime example.



Again, no specifics. And, you're going on hearsay... Not very solid thinking.

You ARE refering to Canary Wharf (Mayday two years ago). It's shaky thinking to take ONE incident and try to massage it into a blanket statement, but I'll forgive that and answer the criticism anyway 

Firstly, many people didn't realize that people had been arrested or even detained. There was a commotion but nobody seemed to know what was going on. The objective was to move away from the Wharf, which is private property, down to the beach, which is public and under a different jurisdiction (river police rather than sh*tty police).

On that occasion, it made more sense to stay mobile and outfox the police. Remember the Sh*tty police love a good ruck. They were in the thick of it at g20 and you can clearly see the delight they had in smashing people up. Why stay still and give them what they want? Better to get to the beach and out of their jurisdiction so we can give them the finger and lawfully party until WE decide to stop -  right under their noses.

I'm sorry for the two(?) that got arrested, but Space Hijackers isn't your mum! People who knew the arrestees stayed with them and got the station they were taken to etc. Once that was sorted, what else could be done? Yes, I s'pose we could have all milled around and given the Sh*tty police a ruck, but why give them the pleasure?


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

theant said:


> Apart from one agent who practically makes a career out of getting himself arrested and taking the police to court as often as possible (sorry if you're listening dear, you know who you are) as far as I know this has been our first actual arrest that didn't result in almost immediate release by confused police. It's just so difficult to look good arresting a man dressed in excellent eighteenth century drag. I'm not sure how the reputation has come about...







agent_undecided said:


> @Cesare, corax - NO COMMENT!



Fair enough!


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## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 21, 2009)

hmm,

the only arrests I can think of at hijacker events have been Dubversion from here getting arrested at one of the CLP's in about 2004 and a some anarcho's at the Canary Wharf Mayday 07.  Aside from that all arrests have been Hijackers themselves, as said above one in particular more than others ;-)

The anarcho's at canary wharf were walking in the middle of a group of police chanting "all cops are bastards".  The police took objection and grabbed them causing a big scuffle.  Various people either waded in / took legal evidence etc or tried to persuade others to carry on to the beach which was out of the police's jurisdiction in order to prevent further arrests.

I don't know if this justifies 'a reputation'?


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## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

I'd just like to add that my suit fits perfectly, despite being off-the-peg (Oxfam, £20)


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## theant (Apr 21, 2009)

Mine also fitted perfectly and was accompanied by some excellent shoes. Unfortunately the skirt melted when I left it on a light at a party  stupid low melting point of nylon.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 21, 2009)

agnesdavies said:


> It struck me that one of the most powerful ways to protest and overcome the police's heavy-handed approach here _is_ the use of ridicule. The armoured car thing's a great example - camera-friendly, and it clearly caused a few splinters to form in the heads of the coppers who had come expecting the kind of language they understand - aggression and violence - and got instead paradox and humour.
> 
> Would, for example, pink police uniforms be regarded as bannable? I love the idea of everyone dressing up as criminals, too, and I'm sure that, with a bit of thought, we could come up with all kinds of loony stunts that would still make the point, but would show the police up in the worst light possible when they decided they were going to get heavy...
> 
> Of course, they'll probably still wade in. But my bet is that future protests are going to be increasingly well covered by cameras, both media and those of the youtube generation...



I think this is bang on the money.

the Hijacker mayday last year was a re-enactment of the last ever may fayre in mayfair.  it was billed as a collaboration between the hijacker and the Met.  In act 1 the hijackers would put on a street party, in act 2 the Met would clamp down on dissent and close it down.  

All of the publicity had both hijacker and Met logo's on it and was spread far and wide.

the end result was that the Met were under strict instructions from above NOT to close down the party so as not to look like they were playing into the hijackers hands.

1-0


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## Fuck Bees! (Apr 21, 2009)

Ah yes the space hijackers reputation. Seems to have been concocted though 'I heard this I heard that' rather than having a factual basis. 

Anyway I always thought the attire was rather dashing, not ill-fitting.


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## Crispy (Apr 21, 2009)

Stunts have their place, and the hijackers do good stunts. fair play to them


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Stunts have their place, and the hijackers do good stunts. fair play to them



Amusing stunts too, we need more of that sort of thing.


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## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom is a miserable git...


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2009)

Out of curiousity, why the sudden presence of several Hijackers on Urban?

Welcome, have a hobnob, don't lend dub a fiver etc - just wondered how/why you've all appeared (or returned rather, given the join dates) on here at once?


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

Corax said:


> Out of curiousity, why the sudden presence of several Hijackers on Urban?
> 
> Welcome, have a hobnob, don't lend dub a fiver etc - just wondered how/why you've all appeared on here at once?



Probably saw their thread I spect


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## Fuck Bees! (Apr 21, 2009)

Well I forgot I had an account here  But it would seem that I do!


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> While we've got a Space Hijacker handy, perhaps (s)he'd care to explain how they got this reputation for standing to one side and doing fuck all while the police beat and arrest people who are participating in their stunts?


People like you repeating rumours on the internet? No one was 'beaten', two people were issued FPNs for disorder.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> Well I forgot I had an account here  But it would seem that I do!




Post on some other threads an all - there's about a trillion g20 ones on the go at the moment.


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## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

Corax said:


> Out of curiousity, why the sudden presence of several Hijackers on Urban?
> 
> Welcome, have a hobnob, don't lend dub a fiver etc - just wondered how/why you've all appeared (or returned rather, given the join dates) on here at once?



Heh heh, sorry! I should spend more time in here. I heard there was a thread on Mayday.... I can't speak for any other Hijackers who might be lurking 

Thanks for the Hobnob.


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

theant said:


> While the rest of us were dressed in our best suits to blend in with the locals, partying and encouraging them to join us a small group turned up in their standard black with covered faces and red and black flags, swearing at and goading the police. These were the two later arrested.


Nope, the two later 'arrestees' were in smart shirts, and one had an ill-fitting suit, no face coverings.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> Post on some other threads an all - there's about a trillion g20 ones on the go at the moment.



Alas I think we all spent most of the G20 in the cells and aren't allowed to talk too much about the bit that we were present for


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## theant (Apr 21, 2009)

Vanity and the spirit of promotion finally propelled me through the need to sign up before being able to view the threads 

I've got an exam three days after mayday (and so will be studiously avoiding arrest/head injuries) and shouldn't really be on the internet when there's revision to be done but will definitely come hobnob once the tiny part of my brain devoted to making me pass my degree has restored my internet privileges


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I'm only going on what I've heard from people who've been arrested at some of their daft stunts and had exactly that happen.


Either you or they are have massively exaggerated what happened, knowing all those involved, indeed having done court support for them, I'm going with you. Why lie?


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> Alas I think we all spent most of the G20 in the cells and aren't allowed to talk too much about the bit that we were present for



Damn. There's always threads and dreads for ideas on the next set of costumes though


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

winjer said:


> Either you or they are have massively exaggerated what happened, knowing all those involved, indeed having done court support for them, I'm going with you. Why lie?


I'm going off conversations I had months ago, I seem to remember the person I was talking to saying that the police hit him, I could have remembered it wrongly, why accuse me of lying?

Either way, the Space Hijackers obviously have no notion of solidarity if they're happy to watch somebody get arrested and do nothing about it, then slur the people who were arrested on the internet afterwards.


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## theant (Apr 21, 2009)

winjer said:


> Nope, the two later 'arrestees' were in smart shirts, and one had an ill-fitting suit, no face coverings.



There were certainly some folks of the face covering variety around. If these weren't the ones arrested I apologise. I used to have a very bad impression of dressed in black, face covering people until a long discussion with one at the following mayday almost ended in the friendliest way possible...


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I could have remembered it wrongly, why accuse me of lying?


Because you're slagging off people you've never met based on poorly remembered conversations, perhaps?



> Either way, the Space Hijackers obviously have no notion of solidarity if they're happy to watch somebody get arrested and do nothing about it, then slur the people who were arrested on the internet afterwards.


Speaking as someone who is both one of those arrested, and involved in the Spacehijackers, do fuck off.

I don't think anybody has slurred those people on the internet afterwards except you.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

winjer said:


> Because you're slagging off people you've never met based on poorly remembered conversations, perhaps?


I like that you assume that I've never met the people I'm talking about without actually knowing anything about me or ever having met me yourself.  Why would you lie like that winjer, why?



> Speaking as someone who is both one of those arrested, and involved in the Spacehijackers, do fuck off.


And as somebody who thinks that the Spacehijackers are a bunch of self-serving, twatty little postgrads with no politics to speak of, fuck off yourself.



> I don't think anybody has slurred those people on the internet afterwards except you.


Where and how?


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## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 21, 2009)

so erm Mayday?

Tactics to avoid the police kettling us, or tactics to get them to kettle us and make it backfire on them?
Ways of using the current media anti-police stance to our advantage?
Outfits/ideas etc?
cunning actions which might fit in well with this, or use it as a decoy?


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## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Either way, the Space Hijackers obviously have no notion of solidarity if they're happy to watch somebody get arrested and do nothing about it, then slur the people who were arrested on the internet afterwards.



So, your idea of solidarity is hanging around, getting beaten up but the dumbest police in London, letting the ocifers go home for a hearty wank (phwoor, got a tart right in the face with mi' truncheon so I did!) and off to hospital for the protestors. Fantastic tactics. You have obviously been highly schooled in asymetric conflict.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> And as somebody who thinks that the Spacehijackers are a bunch of self-serving, twatty little postgrads with no politics to speak of, fuck off yourself.



They're a bit more likely to win over public opinion and have a bit of a laugh in doing so than, say, Class War (not that I'm being particularly disparaging about Class War, everything has its place innit) ... whatever works eh.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> They're a bit more likely to win over public opinion and have a bit of a laugh in doing so than, say, Class War (not that I'm being particularly disparaging about Class War, everything has its place innit) ... whatever works eh.


"Public opinion" is neither here nor there if it never translates to anything more than shit like this.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> "Public opinion" is neither here nor there if it never translates to anything more than shit like this.



Public support for public dissent neither here nor there? I don't agree.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> Public support for public dissent neither here nor there? I don't agree.


"if it never translates to anything more than shit like this"

Opinion is only useful insofar as it translates to practical support, otherwise it's no better than total disinterest.


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I like that you assume that I've never met the people I'm talking about without actually knowing anything about me or ever having met me yourself.


That's a little circular, surely, since one of the people I'm 'assuming' you've never met is me?

(I didn't suggest that you'd never met AC or DC)



> Where and how?





In Bloom said:


> That idiotic thing where you all dressed up in ill-fitting suits to freak out the normals or something would be a prime example.





In Bloom said:


> the Space Hijackers obviously have no notion of solidarity if they're happy to watch somebody get arrested and do nothing about it





In Bloom said:


> the Spacehijackers are a bunch of self-serving, twatty little postgrads with no politics to speak of, fuck off yourself.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> "if it never translates to anything more than shit like this"
> 
> Opinion is only useful insofar as it translates to practical support, otherwise it's no better than total disinterest.




Things gather pace, y'know. Even if a few more people actually turned out to cheer them on and take photos/videos, it's not a waste of time.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> Things gather pace, y'know. Even if a few more people actually turned out to cheer them on and take photos/videos, it's not a waste of time.


I really don't agree, these sorts of stunts often fail utterly at actually communicating what they're about.  If anything, they reinforce the notion that politics is something that experts do at spectacular events while everybody else watches.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

winjer said:


> That's a little circular, surely, since one of the people I'm 'assuming' you've never met is me?
> 
> (I didn't suggest that you'd never met AC or DC)


There seems to be some confusion about when we're talking about the (other) arrestees and when we're talking about the art students who've read a little bit of Debord and not really understood it.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I really don't agree, these sorts of stunts often fail utterly at actually communicating what they're about.  If anything, they reinforce the notion that politics is something that experts do at spectacular events while everybody else watches.



Then we'll have to agree to differ. I can't be alone in feeling that watching a load of OB scratching their heads and consulting the rule book rather than taking a baton to them is a bad thing.


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## Fuck Bees! (Apr 21, 2009)

Yeah and smashing up branches of RBS/fighting with the police reinforces that protests are just for violent 'FUCK YOU DAD!' asbo youth.


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> There seems to be some confusion about when we're talking about the (other) arrestees and when we're talking about the art students who've read a little bit of Debord and not really understood it.


And when we're not talking about art students at all. You really have no idea what or who you're talking about, so why not save the ad hominems, and criticise the activity, rather than imaginary people.


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> fighting with the police reinforces that protests are just for violent 'FUCK YOU DAD!' asbo youth.


Bollocks. Try reading a little history.


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## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

jæd said:


> People who think that shouting slogans at a bank while the peeps in charge are in the South of France for a long weekend will actually change things...?


Where did anybody suggest shouting anything at any banks?

"(Sound Systems, Moonshine, Cake, Kettles, Party Games)"


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2009)

PeterTCA said:


> Not actually a tank but a SARACAN armoured vehicle once made by Avis. It can run even if two of its wheels are disabled (i.e. mines). If driven with the issued periscopes it's virtually impossible to disable the crew. It also came with eight smoke-bomb projectiles. Scary stuff.



Actually, that'd be a SARAC*E*N made by A*L*VIS.


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## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

hehe, I love how a spacehijackers thread gets people all gwumpy.  

I like the Spacehijacker lot, they're different and bring a side of comedy with them. Fuck those who hate them, up the shit box. Twice.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> No, it really didn't.



Ah, the smoke tubes must have been placed over the front light assemblies purely for show, then.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> hehe, I love how a spacehijackers thread gets people all gwumpy.
> 
> I like the Spacehijacker lot, they're different and bring a side of comedy with them. Fuck those who hate them, up the shit box. Twice.



Politics is sewwious business. Sewwious


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## Fuck Bees! (Apr 21, 2009)

winjer said:


> Bollocks. Try reading a little history.



But the way it's covered in the press isn't 'oh look there's some protesters what are their arguments' it's 'LOOK AT THESE GUYS FUCKING SHIT UP!' which is eventually going to be boiled down to protest = violence rather than just a nice bit of dissent. 

Anyway, mayday! Hooray! Hurrah for spectacle.


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## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> But the way it's covered in the press isn't 'oh look there's some protesters what are their arguments' it's 'LOOK AT THESE GUYS FUCKING SHIT UP!' which is eventually going to be boiled down to protest = violence rather than just a nice bit of dissent.
> 
> Anyway, mayday! Hooray! Hurrah for spectacle.



and fuck the press. If there's anything we've learned over the past 2 weeks, it's that the press will always be biased cuntoids.. UNless they're forced into backtracking. IE.. this whole fucking G20 saga.


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## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> Yeah and smashing up branches of RBS/fighting with the police reinforces that protests are just for violent 'FUCK YOU DAD!' asbo youth.


Where have I advocated smashing up branches of RBS?  I thought that the G20 meltdown stuff was, if anything, even more pointless than this "Let's dress up in costumes and stand around getting pissed in the day, that'll _really_ stick it to The Man" shit.


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## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> and fuck the press. If there's anything we've learned over the past 2 weeks, it's that the press will always be biased cuntoids.. UNless they're forced into backtracking. IE.. this whole fucking G20 saga.



I have my suspicions that the Guradina journos proper loved our g20 threads, links and commentary *taps nose*


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> But the way it's covered in the press isn't 'oh look there's some protesters what are their arguments' it's 'LOOK AT THESE GUYS FUCKING SHIT UP!' which is eventually going to be boiled down to protest = violence rather than just a nice bit of dissent.
> 
> Anyway, mayday! Hooray! Hurrah for spectacle.


Protests aren't always about winning an argument.


----------



## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Where have I advocated smashing up branches of RBS?  I thought that the G20 meltdown stuff was, if anything, even more pointless than this "Let's dress up in costumes and stand around getting pissed in the day, that'll _really_ stick it to The Man" shit.



And what will really "stick it to the man"? 

Big protests do fuck all, little protests do fuck all. Medium sized protests do fuck all. At least this lot are up for the giggle. And not all "oh noez, be all sirius, cos like, it's all sirius" 

I think the only thing that'll really work, is mass boycots. Boycot banks, large supermarkets and big brands. If we all removed our cash from the banks, they'd flop like a biccy dunked in tea for 45 seconds. B ut to do something like that, you really do need the whole world behind it.


----------



## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> I have my suspicions that the Guradina journos proper loved our g20 threads, links and commentary *taps nose*



oh yes well, 1 paper out of howmany? Ok 2 if you count Al jazera. That's the only lot (that I can recall) who covered the protests and what happened in any kind of fair light. The rest can suck on my balls.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I'm going off conversations I had months ago, I seem to remember the person I was talking to saying that the police hit him, I could have remembered it wrongly, why accuse me of lying?
> 
> Either way, the Space Hijackers obviously have no notion of solidarity if they're happy to watch somebody get arrested and do nothing about it, then slur the people who were arrested on the internet afterwards.



You have no notion of solidarity just an attachment to a boring outdated and unloved organisation.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> And what will really "stick it to the man"?
> 
> Big protests do fuck all, little protests do fuck all. Medium sized protests do fuck all. At least this lot are up for the giggle. And not all "oh noez, be all sirius, cos like, it's all sirius"
> 
> I think the only thing that'll really work, is mass boycots. Boycot banks, large supermarkets and big brands. If we all removed our cash from the banks, they'd flop like a biccy dunked in tea for 45 seconds. B ut to do something like that, you really do need the whole world behind it.


----------



## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> There seems to be some confusion about when we're talking about the (other) arrestees and when we're talking about the art students who've read a little bit of Debord and not really understood it.



To be honest, In Bloom, you don't seem to be able to structure an argument or to understand/critique other people's to any useful degree. Given that, it's comical for you to name-drop Debord as a measure of intellectual capacity.

Have you got something useful to say about this coming Mayday?


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> You have no notion of solidarity just an attachment to a boring outdated and unloved organisation.


Nah, I've never been a member of Class War.


----------



## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Nah, I've never been a member of Class War.



tee hee!


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> oh yes well, 1 paper out of howmany? Ok 2 if you count Al jazera. That's the only lot (that I can recall) who covered the protests and what happened in any kind of fair light. The rest can suck on my balls.



Yep e.g. the Beeb were doing a fair enough job on their live commentary, then it got whitewashed for the headlines. Then they had to do a bit of a shuffle once the rags followed the G's suit.


----------



## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> But the way it's covered in the press isn't 'oh look there's some protesters what are their arguments' it's 'LOOK AT THESE GUYS FUCKING SHIT UP!' which is eventually going to be boiled down to protest = violence rather than just a nice bit of dissent.


Yeah, those suffragettes really need to rethink their media strategy or women will never get the vote...


----------



## Crispy (Apr 21, 2009)

Oh the handbags on these threads are fucking hilarious they really are


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

agent_undecided said:


> To be honest, In Bloom, you don't seem to be able to structure an argument or to understand/critique other people's to any useful degree. Given that, it's comical for you to name-drop Debord as a measure of intellectual capacity.


You've been here ten minutes, and you've seen me taking the piss out of you, not "structuring an argument".



> Have you got something useful to say about this coming Mayday?


Avoid the motorways if you're taking the kids anywhere, the traffic's a nightmare.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Nah, I've never been a member of Class War.



You are such a wanker, you really are.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Oh the handbags on these threads are fucking hilarious they really are



Left attacking left in ever decreasing circles.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

Certain parts of the left- anarchist movement are just withering on the vine, this is great news. In Blooms little sect is one of them.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

Fight! Fight!

Crispy's on the thread with his ban baton


----------



## _float_ (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> ...no notion of solidarity...


An ironic comment coming from u75's commander-in-chief-of-pissing-on-other-people's-protests.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Certain parts of the left- anarchist movement are just withering on the vine, this is great news. In Blooms little sect is one of them.


The AF is actually the largest organsed anarchist group in the UK (which makes us the fattest anorexic at the buffet, but we're hardly "withering", we're actually growing).


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Blooms lot don't like fighting, or action, or activity, or anything apart from boring leaflets and papers that no one normal would wipe their arse on.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> The AF is actually the largest organsed anarchist group in the UK (which makes us the fattest anorexic at the buffet, but we're hardly "withering", we're actually growing).



Your totally irrelevant, stuck in the past, and boring to fuck.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> In Blooms lot don't like fighting, or action, or activity, or anything apart from boring leaflets and papers that no one normal would wipe their arse on.


And the nonsense just keeps coming.


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Oh the handbags on these threads are fucking hilarious they really are





cesare said:


> Left attacking left in ever decreasing circles.



innit?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm voting for a third party


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 21, 2009)

ok inspector crispy, it's kettle time for the warring factions!!!!


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

This thread is lacking huge realms of cut n paste together with pithy class insights imo


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> And what will really "stick it to the man"?
> 
> Big protests do fuck all, little protests do fuck all. Medium sized protests do fuck all. At least this lot are up for the giggle. And not all "oh noez, be all sirius, cos like, it's all sirius"
> 
> I think the only thing that'll really work, is mass boycots. Boycot banks, large supermarkets and big brands. If we all removed our cash from the banks, they'd flop like a biccy dunked in tea for 45 seconds. B ut to do something like that, you really do need the whole world behind it.



and how do you get the whole world behind it? (well, not the whole world, that would be silly) - protest carried out in a way that engages with the public e.g., spacehijackers and their armoured car


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> This thread is lacking huge realms of cut n paste together with pithy class insights imo



yes, that's true, where _IS_ enumbers??


----------



## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> and how do you get the whole world behind it? (well, not the whole world, that would be silly) - protest carried out in a way that engages with the public e.g., spacehijackers and their armoured car



exactamundo 

Protests will be the start, then comes the world domination


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> and how do you get the whole world behind it? (well, not the whole world, that would be silly) - protest carried out in a way that engages with the public e.g., spacehijackers and their armoured car


There's a difference between "engaging with the public" and having a single news story about an idiotic attempt at a stunt that fell flat on its face.


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

@ xes

erm.....i'm with you there until the, um, bit about world domination


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> yes, that's true, where _IS_ enumbers??



Underclassing to the max, man.


----------



## _float_ (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> ...You've been here ten minutes...


agent_undecided - Join Date: Sep 2007

/fail


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

_float_ said:


> agent_undecided - Join Date: Sep 2007
> 
> /fail


Posts: 12.


----------



## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

Protests will be the start, then comes the world domination

Um... Like this Mayday for convicts?

See, once the whole world realizes they're all just convicts, then we can take over


----------



## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> erm.....i'm with you there until the, um, bit about world domination



lolz, I've been trying to take over the world for years man. Pinky and the brain? based on me  

true story is that. 

Techno will be my tool of terror. Slipping into every genre of music until the world is boppin along nicely. Then BAM, subliminal messages to take over govements and stuff. I've got it all worked out (on the back of a post-it)


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

agent_undecided said:


> ... Like this Mayday for convicts?
> 
> See, once the whole world realizes they're all just convicts, then we can take over


Deep, maaaan.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> And the nonsense just keeps coming.



Well go tell us then, I'm all ears.

I met your lot twenty odd years ago for a possible merger talks between Class War and the AF. 

We decided (after 1 meeting) against taking it any further as you were more boring and weird than the people who sold Newsline in the early 80's. 

What activity have you done since? Apart from the dreary leaflets?

Any action whatsoever?

oh and Enver Hoxha buying a new hat dos not count. (nice hat though Enver)


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> There's a difference between "engaging with the public" and having a single news story about an idiotic attempt at a stunt that fell flat on its face.



you got sour grapes cos you didn't think of it or something?

that news story is part of the whole process of engaging with the public, this process is made up a whole load of 'single news stories', not just the one.

which is gonna attract more people to leftist politics do you think?:

a) an interesting slightly wacky news story that might encourage them to look deeper into the issues?

or:

b) factional in-fighting of the sort you're posting here?


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Well go tell us then, I'm all ears.
> 
> I met your lot twenty odd years ago for a possible merger talks between Class War and the AF.
> 
> ...


Would you like a list?



> oh and * buying a new hat dos not count. (nice hat though *)


What the *fuck* do you think you're playing at, posting people's real names on here?


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Posts: 12.



so fucking what???


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Would you like a list?
> 
> 
> What the *fuck* do you think you're playing at, posting people's real names on here?



Enver Hoxha, Enver Hoxha, Enver Hoxha.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> so fucking what???


proves s/he's a middle class infiltrator innit!?


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> lolz, I've been trying to take over the world for years man. Pinky and the brain? based on me
> 
> true story is that.
> 
> Techno will be my tool of terror. Slipping into every genre of music until the world is boppin along nicely. Then BAM, subliminal messages to take over govements and stuff. I've got it all worked out (on the back of a post-it)



i was fully supportive of your principle up to the bit about techno.

you fool.


----------



## xes (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> i was fully supportive of your principle up to the bit about techno.
> 
> you fool.



that's what you say now, but you wait until Girls Aloud are rocking out the 4X4s.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

I think the next spacejacker theme should be Starwars. Bagse yoda.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> so fucking what???


So I find it somewhat unlikely that agent_undecided has been following threads on here for the last year and a half without posting and definately hasn't engaged with me long enough to be making pronouncements about my ability to structure an argument.


----------



## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Deep, maaaan.


 Quite, just like your rhetoric


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> some bullshit


Fuck off, child.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> So I find it somewhat unlikely that agent_undecided has been following threads on here for the last year and a half without posting and definately hasn't engaged with me long enough to be making pronouncements about my ability to structure an argument.




oooOOOOooo

_Somebody_ needs a cuddle.


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

xes said:


> that's what you say now, but you wait until Girls Aloud are rocking out the 4X4s.



well, i spose that's a far more realistic plan than what most of the muppets posting on here could come up with


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

Come on Sweary Mary, you have not the balls to give a goose an Afed leaflet saying Boo!


----------



## Crispy (Apr 21, 2009)

Right, this person is not an unknown so unless there's a clear 'unmasking' of a specific urban username, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying his name. Much like me saying 'Will Self'


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

Enver Hoxha Enver Hoxha etc....


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> I think the next spacejacker theme should be Starwars. Bagse yoda.



not ? that would be 

bagsie darthcuntvader!


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

He does post here (though not often) and he's generally not a fan of having his real name posted on sites like this, I just think it might be nice if that fuckwit TopCat would a) respect that, since I'm pretty sure he wouldn't like it if people did it to him and b) not drag people who are completely unrelated into arguments.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

So instead of any action on Mayday, we should all turn to the riviting site of the Afed and read this sort of stuff:



> Atamansha. The story of Maria Nikiforova – the anarchist Joan of Arc



That should help Bluestreak sleep.


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Right, this person is not an internet unknown so unless there's a clear 'unmasking' of a specific urban username, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying his name. Much like me saying 'Will Self'



wow. he wrote stuff about dead people. radical, man.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> He does post here (though not often) and he's generally not a fan of having his real name posted on sites like this, I just think it might be nice if that fuckwit TopCat would a) respect that, since I'm pretty sure he wouldn't like it if people did it to him and b) not drag people who are completely unrelated into arguments.



You are such a wanker. 

Enver has his name all over the net, is widely known, enjoys publicity and has a nice hat. 

You are a boring wanker, even the Afed will get bored of you soon.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> So instead of any action on Mayday, we should all turn to the riviting site of the Afed and read this sort of stuff:
> 
> 
> 
> That should help Bluestreak sleep.


You mean this AF website, which includes reports on AF activity ranging from strike support to community gardening to the Put People First march at this years G20?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

To be fair, most of what the Left produce is pretty fucking yawn inducing. Don't think that AFED's any worse than the rest.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> wow. he wrote stuff about dead people. radical, man.


History is definately unimportant, let's dress up like wankers and run around Central London before we start thinking.


----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Would you like a list?
> 
> 
> What the *fuck* do you think you're playing at, posting people's real names on here?


I've no idea who he is but feel free to PM me if he is indeed a poster. But you'll have to tell me who, of course.


----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> History is definately unimportant, let's dress up like wankers and run around Central London before we start thinking.


I'm coming in late to this thread (reluctantly brought in by a reported post) but by 'dressing like wankers' do you mean all the anarchists in their matching all-black outfits?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

cesare said:


> To be fair, most of what the Left produce is pretty fucking yawn inducing. Don't think that AFED's any worse than the rest.



Have you met many?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 21, 2009)




----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm coming in late to this thread (reluctantly brought in by a reported post) but by 'dressing like wankers' do you mean all the anarchists in their matching all-black outfits?


Them too.


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> History is definately unimportant, let's dress up like wankers and run around Central London before we start thinking.



maybe. or, even more productively, we could form ourselves into silly little gangs and swear at each other on the internet. yeah, that would be


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm coming in late to this thread (reluctantly brought in by a reported post) but by 'dressing like wankers' do you mean all the anarchists in their matching all-black outfits?



No, just people who don't dress like a devotee of Hoxha's Albania.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Have you met many?



Met any AFED? Not sure tbh. I've met ex-AFED though.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 21, 2009)

(((((bristly's thread))))))


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

It's not too late to add a poll, all you spacejacker folks.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 21, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> (((((bristly's thread))))))





exactly

so erm, Mayday?

I'm going, I think it's going to be fucking ace.  I think a bit of spectacle creation/critique is a great thing.  I think humour is a very powerful weapon and I think movement building and diversity of tactics certainly beat shitty in-fighting.  I also think there is a place for dancing and playing the fool as well as fighting the powers that be.

love and rage


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> exactly
> 
> so erm, Mayday?
> 
> I'm going, I think it's going to be fucking ace.  I think a bit of spectacle creation/critique is a great thing.  I think humour is a very powerful weapon and I think movement building and diversity of tactics certainly beat shitty in-fighting.  I also think there is a place for dancing and playing the fool as well as fighting.


Diversity of tactics is all very well, but what do stunts like this actually achieve?  They don't actually communicate anything in particular to anybody who hasn't already read the call-outs.



> love and rage


"Communism is not love, communism is a weapon with which we smash our enemies"


----------



## Fuck Bees! (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> exactly
> 
> so erm, Mayday?
> 
> ...



Hear hear!


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Enver Hoxha Enver Hoxha etc....


This comparison is sensible.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

I think the days of big meetups on maydays are gone for the moment. 

Groups of twenty tops will be far more useful. 

Office invasions and occupations may be the way forward....


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> so erm Mayday?
> 
> Tactics to avoid the police kettling us, or tactics to get them to kettle us and make it backfire on them?



Well, the obvious way to avoid the kettling thing is to break up into small groups the moment it becomes evident that's what's happening. Is that feasible?

The other thing - along the lines of what you're already doing - is to kettle yourselves. Could you organise some "policemen" (or fancy-dress kettles?) to go around "kettling" groups of (your) people randomly?




Bristly Pioneer said:


> Ways of using the current media anti-police stance to our advantage?


Heh, where to begin? I think the answer has to be "street theatre". Whatever you do, and however your interactions with the police go, I think you have to remember that you will be playing to a much bigger audience. Soliloquies from Shakespeare, as appropriate, might be useful in confrontations with OB. Comedy routines, played to the gallery (ie the visiting media). Lots of noise so the cameras know where to find you. Magic tricks, perhaps. Magic tricks where the copper ends up being the one holding the bunny (type thing, you know...I realise bunnies may not be practical in demo situations). Anything that exudes good-natured fun and bonhomie, especially to camera. And once the meejah know you've got solid gold material, they're going to be hanging around for more, so you can up the stakes a bit.

Oh, reminds me. I do a training course on how to deal with snotty, pissed (and pissed-off) adolescents outside licenced premises. One of the things that really works well, especially when we workshop it, is the tactic of undermining the cocky one by working with the others. There's always a mouthy shit (in the police's case it'll be a senior officer) and a bunch of hangers-on. Talk to the hangers on. Talk _about_ the mouthy shit. Gently - and humorously - chide him to them.

In my case, that's done to defuse situations - here, it's going to exacerbate them, but it's going to be doing it on your terms. An ideal situation is where you've got the bloke's backup unable not to snigger because you've showed him up. It's quite possible they think he's a cunt, anyway - find that crack and insert the lever. Have conversations with the quiet ones as if the mouthy one's not there. If you're feeling brave, ask him to be quiet so his mates can get a word in edgeways. Build relationships (ok, not much of ones, but if they're grinning at you, they're going to feel slightly more crap about coshing you).



Bristly Pioneer said:


> Outfits/ideas etc?
> cunning actions which might fit in well with this, or use it as a decoy?


Like I said before. Pink police uniforms. Perhaps with tutus. And MASSIVE hats. Enormous clubs (made of foam rubber). With POLICE MEDIC written down them. Enormous gloves with FACE-HITTER written on them.

I have no idea if any of those ideas are practical...but they're something to work with to start, anyway...


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 21, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I'm voting for a third party


Yay!!!1!!! Partayy! Wherewherewhere? *gets Party 7 and KP skips*


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 21, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> yes, that's true, where _IS_ enumbers??


Googling, I expect. There's a lot of blogs on that thar wordpress, it takes time.


----------



## _float_ (Apr 21, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> So I find it somewhat unlikely that agent_undecided has been following threads on here for the last year and a half without posting and definately hasn't engaged with me long enough to be making pronouncements about my ability to structure an argument.


For the benefit of agent_undecided, here's some highlights they might have missed: 

*2007 DSEi*: "Even if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague, what would that achieve?"

*2007 climate camp*: "the arrogant, puritanical shite pimped by the likes of Plane Stupid ... it's bullshit for these stupid hippy cunts to go around telling people off for such terrible sins as owning a car and enjoying yourself ...What effective action can anybody take against climate change? Action for the sake of action is far worse than doing nothing..."

*2007 Westfield shopping centre subvertising*: "I love consumerism, almost as much as I love materialism actually. But that's because I'm a socialist and not some halfwit hippy."

*2008 Turning The Tide - nonviolence training, 2009*: "I wish I could make it, but unfortunately I've got a full day of shoving broken glass up my arsehole ... Consensus decision making is idiotic shite for people who live in some ridiculous fantasy world where it's possible for everybody to agree all the time. Fuck consensus." 

*2009 G20 protests*: "To be honest, I think summit protests are a total dead end, they achieve nothing useful ...summit based activism, like personal lifestyle choices such as diet or dress sense, is a dead end as a form of political action ...I don't think summit protests are shit because some of the people who go are tools. It's just a useful coincidence ... If there's one thing I can't stand, it's liberals wanking on about how peaceful they were at a protest. Maybe if you weren't so fucking "peaceful" all the time, you wouldn't end up being battered by the cops so much."

++++++++++++++++++
I'll let you pick out some of your more constructive and positive comments for yourself.


----------



## free spirit (Apr 21, 2009)

agent_undecided said:


> Have you got something useful to say about this coming Mayday?


it's unlikely given his track record on here...



In Bloom said:


> So I find it somewhat unlikely that agent_undecided has been following threads on here for the last year and a half without posting and definately hasn't engaged with me long enough to be making pronouncements about my ability to structure an argument.


just a quick learner then I guess


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2009)

To sum up In Bloom:

Join the Anarchist Federation.
Get very very bored.
Die after not having much sex and certainly no fun.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 21, 2009)

TopCat said:


> To sum up In Bloom:
> 
> Join the Anarchist Federation.
> Get very very bored.
> Die after not having much sex and certainly no fun.


When have I ever tried to recruit for the AF on here?  Also, just because I don't have such a tragic existence that I need to use politics as an excuse to have a social life, doesn't mean that I don't have fun.


----------



## agent_undecided (Apr 21, 2009)

Ah, In Bloom, you should come to the Mayday convict party and have some fun.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2009)

Social Strugglers are both right and wrong to lambast the UK 'movement' for being too lifestylest, green, spectacular, green or whatever (and that's quite a muddling together of orientations and tactics in itself).  They are right because, even within a multiplicity of tactics approach, it leaves UK anticapitalism too far away from social struggle and committed to a kind of abstract 'activism'.  This kind of politics is vibrant, positive and creative, but can be prone to the liberal drift that is sometimes evident in climate camp.

At the same time, knocking all this as 'hippy wank' or whatever is looking at the wrong side of the equation.  The problem isn't that climate camp can get the odd couple of thousands on the streets or that some people want to dress up as clowns, its the weakness of social anarchism and significant social struggle.  Its that that makes the 'movement' skewed, not the existence of climate camp et al.  I'm not throwing that back as an insult at the AF or whoever because, to make an obvious point, social struggle isn't something to be led or conjoured up by enlightened 'leaders'.  All I'm saying then is that if this was a period of heightened community and workplace organisation, then there would be less cause to be worried about green activism.  In fact, there might then be an interesting dialogue between the different forms of struggle.

And finally, its worth throwing in the equally obvious point that those participating in 'activism' are often the same individuals who might be doing something in 'real' communiites.  Younger, yes; more middle class than the AF et al, _slightly _ - but not a uniquely different set of actors.


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 21, 2009)

agent_undecided said:


> Ah, In Bloom, you should come to the Mayday convict party and have some fun.


I think that's against his religion.


----------



## _float_ (Apr 21, 2009)

To be fair to AF:






			
				_float_ said:
			
		

> Noone here has actually come out and said that the AF are in favour, against or neutral about g20 demos/protests/actions ... Is this an AF 'party line' or just In Bloom's personal take on it?






			
				In Bloom said:
			
		

> Some AF members are involved, some aren't. London AF were a part of the Millitant workers' block on the march on Saturday.
> 
> Anything I say on here is strictly in a personal capacity.


Also when asked about a photo of people holding an AF banner:



			
				_float_ said:
			
		

> In Bloom, are these guys "fuckwits" as well?






			
				In Bloom said:
			
		

> The ones holding the banners? No, though I do disagree with some of them about the usefulness of summit protests, which is why they went and I didn't.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 21, 2009)

Car-crash thread has given me some chuckles. 

Good luck with the Mayday stuff.

Idea for interested parties: Maybe you could have cream-tea sit-ins or something along those lines. That way, if the old bill try any kettling you could point out that you've actually got a far more civilised, genteel altenative.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2009)

teqniq said:


> Car-crash thread has given me some chuckles.
> 
> Good luck with the Mayday stuff.
> 
> Idea for interested parties: Maybe you could have cream-tea sit-ins or something along those lines. That way, if the old bill try any kettling you could point out that you've actually got a far more civilised, genteel altenative.



Trays of cucumber sandwiches (crusties removed) for those in the kettle.


----------



## winjer (Apr 21, 2009)

Kettle chips, kettle drums, kettle of fish, ketel one?


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 21, 2009)

I have a feeling a tea party may well be in order

http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/html/projects/whitechapelstar/kneesup.html

a kettle drum band would be amazing, does anyone know one?


----------



## Corax (Apr 21, 2009)

winjer said:


> Kettle chips, kettle drums, kettle of fish, ketel one?



Ketamine?


----------



## free spirit (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> I have a feeling a tea party may well be in order
> 
> http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/html/projects/whitechapelstar/kneesup.html
> 
> a kettle drum band would be amazing, does anyone know one?


throw a party where the power goes off at around 4am, and IME a kettle drum band tends to materialise in your kitchen.

hope that helps


----------



## Crispy (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> I have a feeling a tea party may well be in order
> 
> http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/html/projects/whitechapelstar/kneesup.html
> 
> a kettle drum band would be amazing, does anyone know one?





> BBC London, Urban 75 and a couple of *documentary makers* were all asking for details about what was going on.



Walk through whitechapel and you probably get 2 or 3 of them stuck to your shoes


----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2009)

I wouldn't mind going dressed as a tea pot...


I'm a little teapot, short and stout

Here is my handle (hand on hip),

here is my spout (other arm out straight)

When I get all steamed up,

hear me shout

Just tip me over and pour me out! (lean over in direction of spout)


----------



## Corax (Apr 21, 2009)

kenny g said:


> I wouldn't mind going dressed as a tea pot...
> 
> 
> I'm a little teapot, short and stout
> ...



500 odd people, all singing that and doing the actions.

Seeing the filth baton charge _that_ would look great on the evening news


----------



## _pH_ (Apr 21, 2009)

kenny g said:


> I wouldn't mind going dressed as a tea pot...
> 
> 
> I'm a little teapot, short and stout
> ...





Corax said:


> 500 odd people, all singing that and doing the actions.
> 
> Seeing the filth baton charge _that_ would look great on the evening news



that would be brilliant 

we used to do similar stuff when sabbing, both to the police and the hunt


----------



## teqniq (Apr 21, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> I have a feeling a tea party may well be in order
> 
> http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/html/projects/whitechapelstar/kneesup.html
> 
> a kettle drum band would be amazing, does anyone know one?



Ah, I had no Idea you'd already done something similar, still at least you've had some practise! Anything humorous is great by me.


----------



## ch750536 (Apr 22, 2009)

I'll come over for this one. Will be dressed as a criminal too.

Like this one.


----------



## PeterTCA (Apr 22, 2009)

ViolentPanda said:


> Actually, that'd be a SARAC*E*N made by A*L*VIS.



Yes. Absolutely right. Long time since I've driven one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2009)

PeterTCA said:


> Yes. Absolutely right. Long time since I've driven one.



About 30 years since I sat in one. 
The "Avis" thing made me laugh, though, given that they were/are a not particularly good car-hire company, so it'd make sense for the MoD to get it's troop-carriers from them.


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 22, 2009)

ViolentPanda said:


> About 30 years since I sat in one.
> The "Avis" thing made me laugh, though, given that they were/are a not particularly good car-hire company, so it'd make sense for the MoD to get it's troop-carriers from them.


I looked at that for _ages_ trying to work out what was wrong with it. I corrected "saracen" in my head, but Avis seemed OK, just not quite right


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Apr 22, 2009)

Is it dress down day or dress up day not hat it made any differences, you still could spot them


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 24, 2009)

It's dress as a convict day:

CONVICTS - Dress in your best stripes and come on down to the excercise yard to walk in a circle with your fellow inmates. Sneak some contraband (Sound Systems, Moonshine, Cake, Kettles, Party Games) Past the guards

POLICE - Dress in high-vis yellow or riot black. Encircle the prisoners to piss them off and start some fights. Accept no food or drinks from the convicts because you never know what might be in it. If you plan to join in the "clubbing", make sure you remove your ID numbers and bring covering for your face.

IF THEY WANT A NATION OF CRIMINALS THEN LET'S LET THEM HAVE IT...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 24, 2009)




----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 27, 2009)

Whilst out cycling with the Hijackers the other day, we noticed this:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/04/428647.html

The recent Police recruitment adverts, seem to have been overshadowed by their recent conduct. Behind every community bobby lies the shadow of a violent riot cop.






roll on mayday


----------



## likesfish (Apr 27, 2009)

I like the space hijackers.
 in the same vein as the loonys who dressed up as clowns to disrupt the big nato exercises in germany


----------



## pk (Apr 28, 2009)

likesfish said:


> I like the space hijackers.
> in the same vein as the loonys who dressed up as clowns to disrupt the big nato exercises in germany



Me too. More carnival style fun that makes the cops look like the daft fuckers they are and less of the dull self-righteous "we actually organise some community gardening" activism please.


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 28, 2009)

pk said:


> Me too. More carnival style fun that makes the cops look like the daft fuckers they are and less of the dull self-righteous "we actually organise some community gardening" activism please.


Definitely. I think humour is a really important aspect to asymmetric struggle - The Man tends to rely on people not laughing at him to get them to do what he says...


----------



## tangentlama (Apr 28, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> While we've got a Space Hijacker handy, perhaps (s)he'd care to explain how they got this reputation for standing to one side and doing fuck all while the police beat and arrest people who are participating in their stunts?


They haven't got that reputation. 



theant said:


> Apart from one agent who practically makes a career out of getting himself arrested and taking the police to court as often as possible (sorry if you're listening dear, you know who you are) as far as I know this has been our first actual arrest that didn't result in almost immediate release by confused police. It's just so difficult to look good arresting a man dressed in excellent eighteenth century drag. I'm not sure how the reputation has come about...


 


TopCat said:


> In Bloom is a miserable git...



Quite. He's a miserable git who likes to pretend his own opinions are supported by others too (hence his creation of a fake 'reputation' for SH.)


----------



## tangentlama (Apr 28, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> hmm,
> 
> the only arrests I can think of at hijacker events have been Dubversion from here getting arrested at one of the CLP's in about 2004 and a some anarcho's at the Canary Wharf Mayday 07.  Aside from that all arrests have been Hijackers themselves, as said above one in particular more than others ;-)
> 
> ...


It doesn't. In Bloom is a miserable and possibly even jealous git who gets perverse pleasure from being chained to his activist armchair and not ever sticking his neck out for what he believes in.


----------



## tar1984 (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't know this 'In Bloom' guy, but judging by his posts he does seem like one negative, miserable bastard.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 28, 2009)

tangentlama said:
			
		

> It doesn't. In Bloom is a miserable and possibly even jealous git who gets perverse pleasure from being chained to his activist armchair and not ever sticking his neck out for what he believes in.


Ah, so you're back to lying about me in order to avoid addressing what I'm saying?



tar1984 said:


> I don't know this 'In Bloom' guy, but judging by his posts he does seem like one negative, miserable bastard.


I love it when people heap a load of abuse on me for disagreeing with them and _then_ call _me_ negative.


----------



## tar1984 (Apr 28, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I love it when people heap a load of abuse on me for disagreeing with them and _then_ call _me_ negative.



A load of abuse?  Hmmm.  This is the first time I've so much as engaged with you, so im pretty sure I've never 'heaped abuse' on you.

And yes, you do come across as very negative.


----------



## sam/phallocrat (Apr 28, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> I don't know this 'In Bloom' guy, but judging by his posts he does seem like one negative, miserable bastard.



prescient analysis, that


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 28, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> This is the first time I've so much as engaged with you


And yet you feel the need to insult me.  Seems pretty negative to me.



> And yes, you do come across as very negative.


Perhaps, but at least I'm not a hypocrite


----------



## TopCat (Apr 28, 2009)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> Whilst out cycling with the Hijackers the other day, we noticed this:
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/04/428647.html
> 
> ...



Looks like one of those kits bags that went missing has been put to good use!!!!


----------



## Cressi (Apr 28, 2009)

Well we have managed to acquire some Wandsworth HMP shirts....(which was quite diffy as we are females).......do we need regulation prison numbers? Everyone in prison has a number........???


----------



## Mooncat (Apr 28, 2009)

Cressi said:


> Well we have managed to acquire some Wandsworth HMP shirts....(which was quite diffy as we are females).......do we need regulation prison numbers? Everyone in prison has a number........???



You could just cover them up...


----------



## smokedout (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Perhaps, but at least I'm not a hypocrite



but you are, youre a complete hypocrite

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=287063

if anyone else had posted this you'd have been all over it saying what a waste of time it is blah fucking boring blah 

you seem to think that you have this unique formula, that every thing youre involved is great and anything anyone else tries to do is rubbish, and anyone who disagrees with that is rubbish, and if they give you back the same vitriol you put out its all so unfair

youre basically the anarchist equivalent of kevin the teenager


----------



## pesh (Apr 29, 2009)




----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

smokedout said:


> but you are, youre a complete hypocrite
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=287063
> 
> if anyone else had posted this you'd have been all over it saying what a waste of time it is blah fucking boring blah


No, I wouldn't.



> you seem to think that you have this unique formula, that every thing youre involved is great and anything anyone else tries to do is rubbish


So everything I've said that's been supportive of the university occupations for Gaza, the Visteon occupations, LCAP, IWW actions in parts of the world I've never even seen, events that I don't have the time or money to attend, etc., what's that?

There's a word for knowingly saying things that are untrue.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 29, 2009)

lying?


----------



## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> So everything I've said that's been supportive of the university occupations for Gaza, the Visteon occupations, LCAP, IWW actions in parts of the world I've never even seen, events that I don't have the time or money to attend, etc., what's that?


Let's refine this a bit then: you slag off one set of marches/demos and actions and support another set. When asked to justify what is so worthwhile about one and not another you refuse to explain. Some people assume that you are being sectarian and self-centred rather than principled, something which is compounded by the petty insults and sneering you typically throw into the mix.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2009)

Total lie teej


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> Let's refine this a bit then: you slag off one set of marches/demos and actions and support another set. When asked to justify what is so worthwhile about one and not another you refuse to explain. Some people assume that you are being sectarian and self-centred rather than principled, something which is compounded by the petty insults and sneering you typically throw into the mix.


I've explained numerous times, something I get really fucking bored of, tbh.  I think that action without a clear idea of what it's supposed to achieve, stunts that fail to communicate their message in a clear way and strategies that have failed every other time they've been used are a bit crap, sterile and harmful, in fact.  I support actions that have a clear aim, achieve something useful, are part of a clear strategy, communicate a particular message clearly and intelligently or increase the confidence of the working class.

Take this daft stunt, do you think anybody's going to look at a bunch of hippies roaming around in prison uniforms and think "Oh, they're making a statement about the presumption of guilt without trial" or are they going to think "What are those wankers playing at"?


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

Basically, if the criticisms I've made of the G20 stuff, or this May Day event, apply to stuff I've organised or suppported, then apply them, demonstrate how the they are similar.  If they don't apply to the stuff I've criticised, then demonstrate this to be the case.

Otherwise it's just you saying "You support one thing but not another, that's, like, hypocrisy, man."


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 29, 2009)

yeh, cos like, _mass stalls_ are going to bring about the revolution maaaaannnnnn!!!!!!!


----------



## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Take this daft stunt, do you think anybody's going to look at a bunch of hippies roaming around in prison uniforms and think "Oh, they're making a statement about the presumption of guilt without trial"


Yes

A lot of the protests you slag off have clear aims, communicate a clear and intelligent message and use strategies which have helped produce results in the past.

[drone] blargh blargh ... fucking bored ... crap ... daft ... hippies ... wankers ... blargh blargh [/drone]


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> yeh, cos like, _mass stalls_ are going to bring about the revolution maaaaannnnnn!!!!!!!


That's really funny, because that's exactly what I think, well done.


----------



## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Basically, if the criticisms I've made of the G20 stuff, or this May Day event, apply to stuff I've organised or suppported, then apply them, demonstrate how the they are similar.  If they don't apply to the stuff I've criticised, then demonstrate this to be the case.


The best place for comments and analysis of your events is on threads about them, rather than this one.

If you have valid criticisms of events then its you who has to set these out. Your analysis usully consists of saying "this is pointless" and then some insults.

You are very confident that there is a clear difference beteen your demos, protests and activities and those you criticise. Demonstrate how the they are different. They don't look very different at all.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> Yes
> 
> A lot of the protests you slag off have clear aims, communicate a clear and intelligent message and use strategies which have helped produce results in the past.
> 
> [drone] blargh blargh ... fucking bored ... crap ... daft ... hippies ... wankers ... blargh blargh [/drone]





> Basically, if the criticisms I've made of the G20 stuff, or this May Day event, apply to stuff I've organised or suppported, then apply them, demonstrate how the they are similar. If they don't apply to the stuff I've criticised, then demonstrate this to be the case.


Logic isn't your strong point, is it?


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> *The best place for comments and analysis of your events is on threads about them*, rather than this one.
> [...]
> You are very confident that there is a clear difference beteen your demos, protests and activities and those you criticise. *Demonstrate how the they are different*. They don't look very different at all.


Epic


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> Yes
> 
> A lot of the protests you slag off have clear aims, communicate a clear and intelligent message and use strategies which have helped produce results in the past.
> 
> [drone] blargh blargh ... fucking bored ... crap ... daft ... hippies ... wankers ... blargh blargh [/drone]



Yes, let us refine it teej. Pick an example - you can pick your best one as well (make sure it includes all your arbitrary conditions). You might find that you're describing direct action rather than anything else - precisely what in bloom is defending. Burt then direct action includes your support for the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, so that too is fraught with complications. I think we need less of your type of enthusiasm old bean.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

And I've already explained my criticism of this particular event.  I don't see how what they plan to do is going to communicate the message they want to put out to a wider audience.  You've responded to that with:



			
				_float_ said:
			
		

> A lot of the protests you slag off have clear aims, communicate a clear and intelligent message and use strategies which have helped produce results in the past.
> 
> [drone] blargh blargh ... fucking bored ... crap ... daft ... hippies ... wankers ... blargh blargh [/drone]


You've not actually said anything specific to the topic of the thread, or what protests you're talking about, or what you mean by "have clear aims, communicate a clear and intelligent message and use strategies which have helped produce results in the past" with regards to the as-yet-unnamed protests you're talking about.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2009)

Come on teej, easy when you think you've the crowd on your side isn't it?


----------



## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Logic isn't your strong point, is it?


Back up your claim that your favoured protests are different.

The climate change actions have just as a 'clear and intelligent' message as your protests against immigration holding centres and are using a similar method for getting their point across (just to pick one example).

When your fellow AF mates go down to London to march you say you don't agree that it is worthwhile, but everyone else gets called stupid wankers and idiots doing something actively harmful.

You might be 'fucking bored' with repeating ad nauseum the same shopping list of what makes a great political campaign but you never back this up with details, evidence or analysis - you cut straight to the sneering, insults and evasion via barrages of counter-questions. There just isn't anything there, just a depressing vacuum of snide remarks.

I think it's a shame as judging by what you *do* choose to support your heart is in the right place, but somewhere along the line it gets drenched in bitterness and served up with a large side-order of aggressive negativity, and that is mostly what people notice most about your posts.

This thread is an example - any positive promotion of your mayday stuff gets neutralised and lost due to your compulsive need to slag off other people. Your criticisms of stunts, summit-hopping, 'reformism' and 'lifestyle-ism' would be far more effective if you were more polite, with more analysis, less insult, more constructive suggestions and less slagging off.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> Back up your claim that your favoured protests are different.
> 
> The climate change actions have just as a 'clear and intelligent' message as your protests against immigration holding centres and are using a similar method for getting their point across (just to pick one example).


I said "communicate a message clearly and intelligently" not "have a clear and intelligent message", there is a difference.  Having said that, the climate change stuff I have been critical of, I was criticising on the basis of poor targetting and blaming the wrong people, resulting in the actions negatively impacting people who are not ultimately responsible for climate change, people that the likes of Plane Stupid _need_ to win over if they hope to win.



> When your fellow AF mates go down to London to march you say you don't agree that it is worthwhile, but everyone else gets called stupid wankers and idiots doing something actively harmful.


So fucking what?  Is there some rule that says I have to like everyone?



> You might be 'fucking bored' with repeating ad nauseum the same shopping list of what makes a great political campaign but you never back this up with details, evidence or analysis - you cut straight to the sneering, insults and evasion via barrages of counter-questions. There just isn't anything there, just a depressing vacuum of snide remarks.


You don't cite any specifics yourself.  Give me an example of what you're talking about.



> I think it's a shame as judging by what you *do* choose to support your heart is in the right place, but somewhere along the line it gets drenched in bitterness and served up with a large side-order of aggressive negativity, and that is mostly what people notice most about your posts.
> 
> This thread is an example - any positive promotion of your mayday stuff gets neutralised and lost due to your compulsive need to slag off other people. Your criticisms of stunts, summit-hopping, 'reformism' and 'lifestyle-ism' would be far more effective if you were more polite, with more analysis, less insult, more constructive suggestions and less slagging off.


As if I give a shit what you think 

You might not like my style, but ultimately, that's all you ever make any substantative criticism of.


----------



## berniedicters (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> And yet you feel the need to insult me.  Seems pretty negative to me.
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but at least I'm not a hypocrite



God, In Bloom, you certainly know how to charm 'em!






In Bloom, debating on teh internets.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

I care about your opinions.


----------



## winjer (Apr 29, 2009)

Have you thought about trying to "communicate a message clearly and intelligently"?


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I care about your opinions.


.


----------



## tar1984 (Apr 29, 2009)

winjer said:


> Have you thought about trying to "communicate a message clearly and intelligently"?





In Bloom said:


> .



Take that as a 'no' then...


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

Do any of you actually have anything worth reading to say?


----------



## tar1984 (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Do any of you actually have anything worth reading to say?



Ironic.


----------



## winjer (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm stunned into silence by this 'analysis'. 



In Bloom said:


> Take this daft stunt, do you think anybody's going to look at a bunch of hippies roaming around in prison uniforms and think "Oh, they're making a statement about the presumption of guilt without trial" or are they going to think "What are those wankers playing at"?


Three ad hominems, no actual argument.


----------



## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> ...You might not like my style, but ultimately, that's all you ever make any substantative criticism of.


On the subject of 'substantive criticism' and the topic of this thread...

My dislike is your 'insult to argument ratio':

*Insults*
daft stunts
idiotic
a bunch of self-serving, twatty little postgrads with no politics to speak of
shit like this. 
art students
an idiotic attempt at a stunt that [will fall] flat on its face.
let's dress up like wankers and run around Central London

*Substantive criticism*

"...these sorts of stunts often fail utterly at actually communicating what they're about. If anything, they reinforce the notion that politics is something that experts do at spectacular events while everybody else watches..."
"...Diversity of tactics is all very well, but what do stunts like this actually achieve? They don't actually communicate anything in particular to anybody who hasn't already read the call-outs..."

*Not mentioned*
Discussion of whether you disagree with the idea being communicated.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

By pointlessy insulting people so much you do a diservice to the valid points you are raising, because it closes down debate - instead of people here listening to you and genuinely discussing whether Space Hijackers harmfully dissipates political energy that would otherwise be channeled more productively, your style actually works against your argument.

Just like you criticise some people for leading political energy along a non-productive path, I dislike your aggressive style of disapproval because it leads any chance of decent debate along a non-productive path.

Here is a forum for various space hijackers, various critics and a range of people who have open minds towards both sides of the argument and your 'substantive criticism' remains undiscussed because of the aggressive and insulting 'style' you have chosen.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

winjer said:


> I'm stunned into silence by this 'analysis'.
> 
> 
> Three ad hominems, no actual argument.


An ad hominem would be an insult used as a substitute for an argument, whereas the argument I'm making, that this stunt is unlikely to communicate the intended message clearly, is blindingly obviously a part of that quote.  Don't throw around terms if you don't understand them.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> *Substantive criticism*
> 
> "...these sorts of stunts often fail utterly at actually communicating what they're about. If anything, they reinforce the notion that politics is something that experts do at spectacular events while everybody else watches..."
> "...Diversity of tactics is all very well, but what do stunts like this actually achieve? They don't actually communicate anything in particular to anybody who hasn't already read the call-outs..."


Are you going to respond to any of that any time soon?



> Discussion of whether you disagree with the idea being communicated.


If you're waiting for somebody to disagree with the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" on here, you may be waiting for some time.



> Just like you criticise some people for leading political energy along a non-productive path, I dislike your aggressive style of disapproval because it leads any chance of decent debate along a non-productive path.


You lot could always harden the fuck up.


----------



## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> Ironic.


No, seriously, do you have anything to say of relevance to the discussion being had?  Or are you just here to hang on the coat tails of people who, for all I might disagree with them, actually have a clue what they're talking about?


----------



## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> An ad hominem would be an insult used as a substitute for an argument, whereas the argument I'm making, that this stunt is unlikely to communicate the intended message clearly, is blindingly obviously a part of that quote.  Don't throw around terms if you don't understand them.


The ad hominems are unneccesary *additions* to the argument you are making. "This stunt is unlikely to communicate the intended message clearly" doesn't require you to sprinkle it with 'daft' 'hippies' 'wankers'. By throwing around personal insults like this you are closing down debate.


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## In Bloom (Apr 29, 2009)

_float_ said:


> The ad hominems are unneccesary *additions* to the argument you are making.


Which is why they would be insults, rather than ad hominem, which is a fairly specific logical fallacy.



> By throwing around personal insults like this you are closing down debate.


Who's closing down debate, me actually talking about the subject at hand or you lot bogging down the thread in pages and pages of boring as fuck metadiscussion?


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## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Are you going to respond to any of that any time soon?


I am not the right person to defend the Space Hijacker approach because while in some respects I really like what they do, I also I have some sympathies with what (I think) you are saying. The debate about how far SH-type stuff feeds into and/or is a replacement for other political stuff is important, which is why I am disappointed that the debates gets closed down by personal insults etc. 


> If you're waiting for somebody to disagree with the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" on here, you may be waiting for some time.


Is that exactly what this action/stunt/demo is about? What is the wider idea behind it (eg is it hoping to influence the police? the media? politicians? What does it hope to achieve? These are also part of 'the idea')


> You lot could always harden the fuck up.


What does 'hardening the fuck up' got to do with words and debating politics? 'Hardening up' words surely has more to do with precise and incisive language, not sloppy scattergun insults? The fact that you are calling me "you lot" when in fact I am annoyed that criticism of SH isn't happening here? That I dislike your style because it undermines your arguments, and that these arguments (when they do emerge) are valid?


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## TopCat (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom you are such a prick.


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## _float_ (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Who's closing down debate, me actually talking about the subject at hand or you lot bogging down the thread in pages and pages of boring as fuck metadiscussion?


OK let's start again: 

I'd question the value of HS 'stunts', of G20 and so forth on the grounds that that don't tie into sustained and concrete political campaigns, and are part of an ironic style of 'expression politics' that just says "you are all shit and I am going to protest" and "I am angry inside but because I feel oppressed and powerless I will turn it into a joke". I also don't think a kind of 'its all good' pluralism is massively helpful either because it portrays politics as a kind of optional pick-and-mix whereas in reality all the different policies and topics are intrinsically connected. If you go down a single-issue 'pressure-group' route you just get co-opted by the status quo. 

I don't think the answer is to have arguments about which group on the left everyone 'should' support or which one is 'correct', so much as trying to form some kind of cooperation between them and doing it in such a way as to have public wide appeal. 

I'd argue that you need to tie together a whole range of groups, and a very good start would be to end all this shit about 'the working class versus the middle class', 'students = middle class', 'educated = middle class' and so forth. On the flip side would be to end the fiction that being a guardian-reading liberal or labour voter makes you 'left-wing'. The final part is the need to rewrite/update marxism to fit modern history and a global economy and society and call it something different. You need something that you can sell equal to young pissed-off Muslims in Pakistan (who might look for their radicalism in the Taliban) as you can to young pissed off students in the UK (who might end up white-collar liberal-voting commuters). This isn't about demanding billions of people become a pre-set 'alternative' - its about proposing a (new) alternative that billions of people can potentially relate to. 

In other words start with a slate of things that need to be done, identify the support base for this and then write the ideology explaining it. Some new and big thinking, not 'prancing around in costumes' (although this is OK if it actually fits in somewhere).

So there is a critique of why SH might be 'irrelevant'. I say 'might be', because I am leaving it open for any SH supporters to tie what they are doing into a larger political picture. I am not going to insult them or label them because I want to debate with them - I want to open up debate not close it down...


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## winjer (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> An ad hominem would be an insult used as a substitute for an argument, whereas the argument I'm making, that this stunt is unlikely to communicate the intended message clearly, is blindingly obviously a part of that quote.


Your argument, as stated, is that this stunt is _unlikely to communicate the intended message clearly because the participants are daft hippy wankers_, you present no reasoning at all.


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## winjer (Apr 29, 2009)

Meanwhile, back at the Bank:


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## tar1984 (Apr 29, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> No, seriously, do you have anything to say of relevance to the discussion being had?  Or are you just here to hang on the coat tails of people who, for all I might disagree with them, actually have a clue what they're talking about?



Well on the topic of this thread, I think the Guilty Until Proven Innocent protest is a good idea.  And I find your negativity a bit depressing.  

What more do you want from me?

And 'hanging on the coat tails?  No.  I am capable of forming my own opinions.


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## theant (Apr 29, 2009)

*sigh*

I hate the internet

I hope I'm not wildly optimistic in thinking that this kind of back and forth insulting wouldn't take place face to face? Even if only because someone might have thrown a punch by now...

Sorry, that wasn't incredibly useful but I'm tired. You should probably just ignore it.


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## tar1984 (Apr 29, 2009)

theant said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I hate the internet
> 
> ...



I agree.  Internet conversations can make me despair at times.  

And it's true, people would be a lot less confrontational IRL.  I mean, we could still discuss our opinions and POV's, but i bet it would be in a much more civil manner.


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## winjer (Apr 29, 2009)

theant said:


> I hate the internet
> 
> I hope I'm not wildly optimistic in thinking that this kind of back and forth insulting wouldn't take place face to face? Even if only because someone might have thrown a punch by now...


Less likely to get widely different people in the same place face to face, though. (yourself and anyone from the AF, for example)


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## TopCat (Apr 29, 2009)

You are well right in thinking In Bloom is not going to call people a bunch of hippy wankers to their face, he does not have the balls.


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## tar1984 (Apr 29, 2009)

Keyboard Confidence.


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## In Bloom (Apr 30, 2009)

TopCat said:


> You are well right in thinking In Bloom is not going to call people a bunch of hippy wankers to their face, he does not have the balls.


You do realise that you don't actually know me, right?  You've never even met me face to face.

And if I think somebody's a wanker, I'm going to call them a wanker, on here or in meatspace.


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## In Bloom (Apr 30, 2009)

winjer said:


> Your argument, as stated, is that this stunt is _unlikely to communicate the intended message clearly because the participants are daft hippy wankers_, you present no reasoning at all.


No, that isn't my argument.  The issue is that a bunch of people in prison garb doesn't really communicate much, if you saw that, without having the insider knowledge that comes from being part of the "scene", would you know why they were doing it?

Which is why I prefer events like the mass stalls, it's much easier to let people know what you're on about with leaflets and conversation than street theatre.


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## In Bloom (Apr 30, 2009)

_float_ said:


> OK let's start again:
> 
> I'd question the value of HS 'stunts', of G20 and so forth on the grounds that that don't tie into sustained and concrete political campaigns, and are part of an ironic style of 'expression politics' that just says "you are all shit and I am going to protest" and "I am angry inside but because I feel oppressed and powerless I will turn it into a joke". I also don't think a kind of 'its all good' pluralism is massively helpful either because it portrays politics as a kind of optional pick-and-mix whereas in reality all the different policies and topics are intrinsically connected. If you go down a single-issue 'pressure-group' route you just get co-opted by the status quo.
> 
> I don't think the answer is to have arguments about which group on the left everyone 'should' support or which one is 'correct', so much as trying to form some kind of cooperation between them and doing it in such a way as to have public wide appeal.


I largely agree with this bit, though I do think that things like the G20 could be good if they did tie into a wider movement, since they would serve as a literal demonstration of the dedication and public support level of that movement, that is not currently the case.  Instead activism becomes an end unto itself, a self-perpetuating, self-contained scene that has no relevance whatsoever to the vast majority of people.


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## IC3D (Apr 30, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Which is why I prefer events like the mass stalls, it's much easier to let people know what you're on about with leaflets and conversation than street theatre.



You do hardly see any of this which is a shame, and it does create a kind of separation between people and those involved on demo's, where they do look to outsiders like a party for police and activists. daily mash

I remember seeing a lot more stalls 10, 15 years ago for enviroment, animal rights.. even the swapies seem thin on the ground now, I helped an ALF stall when I wa 15 

The only stalls on high streets now are fundamenanutters, where I live anyway


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## Bristly Pioneer (Apr 30, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> No, that isn't my argument.  The issue is that a bunch of people in prison garb doesn't really communicate much, if you saw that, without having the insider knowledge that comes from being part of the "scene", would you know why they were doing it?
> .



I think the aim of the event is to try and put across the issue to people passing by, and later through the media too.  Aside from people in prison garb, there should be some fairly clear banners/signs, and lots of people handing out information and talking to passers by and the police.

It is also about supporting our right to publicly convene and protest, which seems to be constantly under threat.  I think that unless we use this right as often as possible then the assumption grows that you should have to ask permission to protest etc.

Fair enough a fair proportion of SH events are based on a pun, and there is certainly some playing up to the scene, especially between us and the police.  In this one for example the police are being asked to play up to the role of expression dampening, freedom crushers with no sense of humour.  If they decide to go down this route, they will look ridiculous.  If they decided (as with past SH events) that by acting like this they would look foolish, then it will be a small victory for us.  I strongly agree with above posters that ridicule is a very powerful tool for fighting against violent and oppressive systems.

I also think it's VERY important to mark mayday with more than just marching, stalls and speeches.  Although these are all very important, and good at movement building, they are not the only routes into activism.  I think SH events appeal to a certain demographic who don't happen across activism at these places.  If we can draw more people into their first steps on the road of becoming active then that is a good thing.

last and not least, Mayday is my birthday, so I intend to dance in the mother fuckin streets.


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## winjer (Apr 30, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> No, that isn't my argument.  The issue is that a bunch of people in prison garb doesn't really communicate much, if you saw that, without having the insider knowledge that comes from being part of the "scene", would you know why they were doing it?


At the Bank of England, in light of the press coverage? Fuck yes.



> Which is why I prefer events like the mass stalls, it's much easier to let people know what you're on about with leaflets and conversation than street theatre.


We do both.


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## Fuck Bees! (May 1, 2009)

Eep eep eep it's this afternoon I am excited! Got to finish costume bits.

edit: and what lovely weather for it too!


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## berniedicters (May 1, 2009)

Well, while the armchair warrior In Bloom sits in front of his computer and vituperates, it's good to see that the rest are getting out there and doing it.

I'm not - I'm being an armchair warrior too  - but I am at least supportive of what I see as an imaginative, humourous and FUN way of raising the profile of some of these issues and getting in the face of the humourLESS bastards who don't want people expressing themselves, humorously or otherwise.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think how much In Bloom's attitude reflects exactly that humourlessness of it all. Actually, it doesn't _matter_ if today's protest achieves nothing. That's a pretty good outcome, compared with the sort of protest that In Bloom seems to be advocating - so far as it's possible to tell - which is more about "hardening up" (brrrr) than anything else. Yes, let's chuck a few more brick-ends, because that's *really* going to change the whole paradigm 

Good luck, Space Hijackers! Have fun...


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## winjer (May 1, 2009)

agnesdavies said:


> That's a pretty good outcome, compared with the sort of protest that In Bloom seems to be advocating - so far as it's possible to tell - which is more about "hardening up" (brrrr) than anything else. Yes, let's chuck a few more brick-ends, because that's *really* going to change the whole paradigm


Um, why not stick to criticising In Bloom's actual argument?


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## ch750536 (May 1, 2009)

FFS, pissed myself off there. For some reason I read 'Mayday Mayday' as Monday, not Friday. Have 2 hrs to do 400 miles.


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## winjer (May 1, 2009)

Not sure if you mean 'Mayday! Mayday!' the Brighton Street Party which _is_ on Monday.
http://www.smashedo.org.uk/mayday-09.htm


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## TopCat (May 1, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> You do realise that you don't actually know me, right?  You've never even met me face to face.
> 
> And if I think somebody's a wanker, I'm going to call them a wanker, on here or in meatspace.



In yer dreams.


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## TopCat (May 1, 2009)

See you all later people....


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## tar1984 (May 1, 2009)

Have fun.


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## winjer (May 1, 2009)

We are


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## In Bloom (May 1, 2009)

agnesdavies said:


> In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think how much In Bloom's attitude reflects exactly that humourlessness of it all. Actually, it doesn't _matter_ if today's protest achieves nothing. That's a pretty good outcome, compared with the sort of protest that In Bloom seems to be advocating - so far as it's possible to tell - which is more about "hardening up" (brrrr) than anything else. Yes, let's chuck a few more brick-ends, because that's *really* going to change the whole paradigm


If you lack the wit to understand what I'm saying, it's probably best stay out of the argument, rather than just plucking things out of your imagination and attributing them to me.


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 1, 2009)

a few pics from earlier on, all very good natured and fun whilst i was there i have to say.


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## ddraig (May 1, 2009)

good pics

came across most of those characters and it was indeed good natured

noticed a fair few randoms, workers and passers by coming over to have a look and even chat to some people. 

there were a few photo opps for the handfull of proper press that were there with  the cage being pulled by a bike that had a mesh like a meat wagon and smiley persons dressed as coppers taking turns to drive it about, some signs, whacky costumes and punks (even a real one with a proper pink 12"+ mohican!!1!)

soundsystems were good and worked well aprt from inevitable and unavoidable clash imo/e

maaan the 911 troofers got t-shirts hoodies and cd's!! was the only thing i was offered was a cd from one which i didn't take...

couple of coppers turned to wave goodbye back as they disspeared from view
only about 30-40 visible plod in and around the bit outside boe but obv loads stashed down the side streets in vans as usual

left before 8 so can't speak for how it went after that, hope no one's bonce got mashed (by plod)

tidy


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## Garcia Lorca (May 1, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> a few pics from earlier on, all very good natured and fun whilst i was there i have to say.



excellent photos Paulie, looked like a good fun day


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## Sweaty Betty (May 2, 2009)

ddraig said:


> good pics
> 
> came across most of those characters and it was indeed good natured
> 
> ...



DId you stay out of trouble???


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 2, 2009)

ddraig;9081459]good pics[/QUOTE]thanx :)[QUOTE=ddraig said:


> soundsystems were good and worked well aprt from inevitable and unavoidable clash imo/e


yes, i made it 4 soundsystems in attendance, as well as one lad with a ghetto blaster 


ddraig said:


> couple of coppers turned to wave goodbye back as they disspeared from view
> only about 30-40 visible plod in and around the bit outside boe but obv loads stashed down the side streets in vans as usual


there didn't seem to be actually, i went off on a bit of a reccy at ~6.30ish apart from 2 cars and 4 vans up by the rbs street, there weren't very many riot vans to be seen at all. i did see 5 driving up bishopsgate on my way around so i suppose they could have been ready for action and told to stand down? also noticed the helicopter out all afternoon, as well as loads of FIT teams this time.





ddraig said:


> left before 8 so can't speak for how it went after that, hope no one's bonce got mashed (by plod)
> 
> tidy


yes, fingers crossed.


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## Fuck Bees! (May 2, 2009)

Everyone was still having a lovely time and the police hadn't started any trouble when I left at 10. What a great time!


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## xes (May 2, 2009)

Great photos Paulie, looks like it was a good evening of frollicks and giggles. Nice one


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## smokedout (May 2, 2009)

it was fun, some pics at http://freelondonlistings.co.uk/component/content/article/47-hijacking-mayday.html

and heres my favourite


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## shaman75 (May 2, 2009)

some more pictures






http://entoptika.co.uk/?p=72


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## teqniq (May 2, 2009)

Excellent pics Paullie. look like everyone had a great time. 

E2A good pics all round!


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## ToothlessFerret (May 2, 2009)

Nice Shaman - love some of those.  The 'Everything is ok' in the middle of the FIT team is tops!


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## Nixon (May 2, 2009)

yeah i went down.thought it would be a bigger demo,but left quite early as i..uh didn't particularly want to be kettled in again..


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## Fuck Bees! (May 3, 2009)

Nixon said:


> yeah i went down.thought it would be a bigger demo,but left quite early as i..uh didn't particularly want to be kettled in again..



Yes unfortunately there was kettling.






(pic from http://entoptika.co.uk/ obv)


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## Nixon (May 3, 2009)

nice.


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## ddraig (May 3, 2009)

Sweaty Betty said:


> DId you stay out of trouble???



but of course mate , softy thought i was going to blow ganj smoke rings at plod and entrap them and shit!
only made 2 prerolls mun!


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 3, 2009)

good pics smokedout and shaman, very good representations of what went on, thanx


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## cesare (May 3, 2009)

Great pics everyone!


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## ToothlessFerret (May 3, 2009)

Still Uploading mine (here's whats up so far - or the slideshow) - it'll take a few days to finish!  Some sharpening to do, as later photos get gradually hazier - I'm sure that it was the fading light.....


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## Lily (May 3, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> a few pics from earlier on, all very good natured and fun whilst i was there i have to say.





smokedout said:


> it was fun, some pics at http://freelondonlistings.co.uk/component/content/article/47-hijacking-mayday.html





shaman75 said:


> some more pictures http://entoptika.co.uk/?p=72





ToothlessFerret said:


> Still Uploading mine (here's whats up so far - or the slideshow) - it'll take a few days to finish!  Some sharpening to do, as later photos get gradually hazier - I'm sure that it was the fading light.....



Thanks for some great pics ^^^^ you lot!


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## lopsidedbunny (May 3, 2009)

> Originally Posted by shaman75  View Post
> some more pictures http://entoptika.co.uk/?p=72



Hmm I saw that a while ago too the timing wasn't particularly helpful to say the least to do gas works (Yellow pipes)


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## shaman75 (May 3, 2009)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Hmm I saw that a while ago too the timing wasn't particularly helpful to say the least to do gas works (Yellow pipes)



tactless isn't it?

thanks for the comments peeps.  some good photos all round really


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## ToothlessFerret (May 4, 2009)

Latest photo, more to come:


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## _pH_ (May 4, 2009)

Brilliant pics everyone 

the bemused looks on the cops' faces is priceless


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