# Calais: Migration and the UK Border



## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm putting this in UK politics because it's an issue that concerns Britain, and in which the British state is intimately involved. 

Presently there are more undocumented migrants in Calais than there have been for several years. Numbers are not easy to estimate as people are leaving and arriving fairly regularly, but it seems that the numbers of migrants in Calais has increased at least fivefold in the last 12 months.

The vast majority of the migrants are from one of a handful of countries: Afghanistan, Syria, Eritrea, Ethiopia or Sudan. One of the main jungles in Calais is populated entirely by Sudanese people, and there are a couple of small camps where Syrians are staying. Other than that people from different countries and with different languages share their spaces. The largest of the jungles now has both a church and a mosque; as well as two restaurants, a shisha lounge and a tobacconist. There are probably at least a thousand people living there.

This main jungle sits next to a huge chemical plant opposite the ferry port. Some tents have been set up in an abandoned sports hall, and these are mostly reserved for women and children. Everyone else lives in tents outside. The only place in the jungle with no tents is the football pitch, which predates the jungle and still has its white lines and goalposts. Tents line the pitch on all sides, right up to the touchline, but nobody camps on the pitch itself. Football is taken very seriously.

The jungle is close to the motorway at point where it enters the port. Whenever there's a traffic jam, people drop what they're doing and run towards the road to try and climb onto lorries. People don't stop to collect posessions, they travel with whatever they've got in their pockets. There is a large car park on the opposite side of the road, the last place for truck drivers to pull in before they reach the port. This car park is controlled by one of the trafficking gangs, if you want to wait there to try for the lorries then you have to pay them. The gangs will happily shoot you if you don't pay up. Truck stops and filling stations up to 50 miles outside Calais are now controlled by gangs in this way. 

The other large jungles, one Sudanese one primarily Afghan, are also located within sprinting distance of likely spots for traffic jams on the roads leading to the ferry port and the channel tunnel. Neither of these jungles has any access to running water. Whenever there are traffic jams the police are almost as quick as the migrants, and soon the CRS (French specalist riot plods) arrive in numbers. Migrants who don't scarper quickly enough are liable to get battered with truncheons and tear gassed. They are not keen to allow anyone to film any of this, and will either arrest you or beat you up if you try. Cameras seized by the CRS have been returned with their circuitry fried by tasers. Unlike the UK with all those vague anti-terror laws, there is no law in France that makes it illegal to film the police.

More coming soon...


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## bluescreen (Jan 1, 2015)

Thanks for raising this subject. Are you writing from first hand experience? I know the French generally regard the Brits responsible for this continuing human misery. If we were part of the Schengen Agreement then these people would be able to enter without difficulty. The Guardian recently carried a long story about the death toll among migrants and the shocking conditions in which they try to live. It seems that Britain isn't taking anything like its fair share of asylum seekers, though apparently only a small proportion will claim asylum anyway, preferring to take their chance as illegals. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rying-enter-uk-die-shameful-calais-conditions

Here's a handy myth-busting guide from Salford City Council to wave at Kippers.


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## Nancy_Winks (Jan 1, 2015)

It's really awful. But what would happen if we had no immigration policy? We'd be inundated cos life in the UK is a hell of a lot better than the majority of third world countries.

These people should be given proper shelter and amenities if they've got as far as France though.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

Besides the jungles there is one large squat near the centre of town. A large industrial complex inhabited by a couple of hundred people, most of them Sudanese. There used to be several large squats in Calais but the local authorities have started simply ignoring French law and evicting even registered squats illegally. This last remaining squat is likely to be evicted before the end of January.

The jungles which currently exist in Calais have been allowed to exist for a relatively long time. Typically they are bulldozed every few months. Another mass eviction is likely to happen before long. The unofficial policy of not evicting migrants during winter seems to have gone out of the window. 

The French and British governments seem to have come up with a carrot-and-stick type plan to get the migrants out of the town without actually letting them cross the border. A new day centre providing washing facillities etc will be opened at a site a few miles from Calais itself in the near future, although construction doesn't seem to be moving very quickly. It's expected that after the jungles are cleared the migrants will be forced to set up new jungles in the area around this new day centre, an area with no access to the town and which the police will be able to control access to. At this point this is just speculation, but it seems clear that a major change in strategy is likely to happen soon in light of both the increased numbers of migrants in Calais and the increased public awareness of the conditions they are living in. Whether anyone will actually try to improve the situation or simply make it less visible and more closely controlled remains to be seen.

There are plenty of people currently working to help the migrants in Calais, from large international Christian groups to individual local people popping by with a bag of food like you'd take to a food bank. Because of the sheer numbers of people though, it's very hard to know who needs what and where limited resources can be put to best use. French anti-solidarity laws mean that it's technically illegal to give any help to migrants unless you're working with a government approved charity, but in practice this law never seems to be used against anyone.

 Police do keep a close eye on people going to and from the jungles and bringing food, clothing etc. Me and some associates were dragged off to the police station to be interviewed under caution when we were seen walking through a hole in a fence; a fence full of holes and one which several hundred people were already living on the other side of. The interviews (we were suspected of criminal damage to the fence apparently) turned out to be a ruse, firstly to collect information on us but also to get the chance to douse the contents of our van with pepper spray while we were in the police station. Enough warm clothes and blankets for maybe thirty people, donated in good faith by a group from Germany, were all destroyed. This has happened many times before, with the CRS even breaking into to private properties just to pepper spray stuff intended for distribution to migrants.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

Nancy_Winks said:


> It's really awful. But what would happen if we had no immigration policy?



My intention with this thread is to highlight the consequences of the immigration policy we currently have, and the policies of the EU as a whole. 

Whatever we think the consequences of changing those policies would be, the current situation is unacceptable. My personal position is that any system for controlling migration is both inherently racist and necessary for the maintenance of inequality, but I understand why people might some kind of middle ground between open borders and what we have now. An asylum system that was fit for purpose would be a very good start.


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## Nancy_Winks (Jan 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> My intention with this thread is to highlight the consequences of the immigration policy we currently have, and the policies of the EU as a whole.
> 
> Whatever we think the consequences of changing those policies would be, the current situation is unacceptable. My personal position is that any system for controlling migration is both inherently racist and necessary for the maintenance of inequality, but I understand why people might some kind of middle ground between open borders and what we have now. An asylum system that was fit for purpose would be a very good start.


Hard to disagree with any of that


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## Limerick Red (Jan 1, 2015)

Brief report from of Calais migrant solidarity from earlier in the year from London anti-fascists
https://londonantifascists.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/from-london-to-calais-anti-fascist-solidarity/


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Thanks for raising this subject. Are you writing from first hand experience?



I'm being as first-hand as I can. What isn't first hand comes from people who have spent more time in Calais than I have; whether as activists, local residents or migrants.



> If we were part of the Schengen Agreement then these people would be able to enter without difficulty.



I'm not sure this is true. As an asylum seeker you are supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country you reach, which in the EU's opinion is the first EU country you reach. If you've turned up on the system in Greece or Italy, which are often not safe places for migrants and where asylum seekers effecitvely recieve no support whatsoever, then you will be sent back there if you later claim asylum in another schengen country.

At present you can go to the home office and argue that even though you've been to another EU country on your travels, you still need asylum in the UK. If we were in the schengen group, it might give the UK an excuse to deny asylum to even more people than we do now.



> It seems that Britain isn't taking anything like its fair share of asylum seekers, though apparently only a small proportion will claim asylum anyway, preferring to take their chance as illegals.



One key thing about the UK asylum system is evidence. You need to provide documentary proof that you're at risk in your home country. Most warlords, torturers, terrorists and corrupt government troops don't provide you with documentary evidence when they destroy your life, and even if they do there's not much chance you'll be able to hang on that documentation during your journey across deserts, mountains and seas to finally wash up on British shores. There's also the fact that you can only claim asylum if you're physically on UK soil, and for people from certain countries the chances of getting a legitimate visa to come here in the first place are basically zero, so people have no choice but to come here 'illegally'.

One of the most absurd things about the asylum and immigration system is detention of migrants. Unless there's any evidence that someone is a danger to the public, in which case the criminal justice system can deal with them, it's got to be better to give people the resources to support themselves (primarily by allowing them to work legitimately) than to lock them up in detention centres for months or years at exorbitant cost. Sadly the political rhetoric is all aimed at creating the idea that an immgrant who has slipped off the home office's radar is basically the same as an escaped criminal. In reality if it weren't for the papers telling people about all these 'illegals' all over the place, nobody would ever notice. All they'd ever see is ordinary people minding their own business, and they'd think nothing of it.

Immigration is an industry. For the companies running the detention centres, the companies contracted to round up undocumented migrants and for the employers getting rich by paying migrants poverty wages. Those in power are not interested in fixing the immigration system, they're interested in continuing to profit from the fact that it's broken.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 1, 2015)

I was in Calais in November - took this picture of Syrians protesting on one of the roads out of the ferry terminal. They were being watched by a couple of vans of cops from across the road.

 

I saw a lot of graffiti both pro and anti around the outskirts of town, in English and French. I did hear of some French far right coming to Calais as well as French antifa.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

Many people in Calais don't know much about the immigration system in the UK. People don't generally know about claiming benefits, and have no interest in claiming benefits. The vast majority of people want the same thing, they want to be safe and warm and they want the chance to earn an honest living and live in peace.

You meet engineers amongst the migrants in Calais, teachers, designers, builders, piano teachers, dentists and everything else under the sun. What you don't see in the papers is any talk about what these people could contribute if they were given half a chance. All the talk is about people coming to our country and taking, taking, taking. They'll take the food from your children's mouths if we let them. Actually they might take the rotten teeth out of your kids' mouths, they might help get NHS waiting lists down, they might open yet another pointless pop-up cafe, they might take their place in society just like anybody else. Because, despite their present circumstances, they are just like anyone else. All the propaganda depends on the idea that somehow they are not, that they are different from us, that they are something we have to be protected from.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 1, 2015)

Road sign near the terminal:


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## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

Thanks for posting this.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 1, 2015)

One more, a crop from a long way away of some graffiti on a warehouse I think.

 

I don't have that many, I was with a group and also my camera kept fucking up helpfully enough.


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## Geri (Jan 1, 2015)

I have Facebook friends who are Kurdish from Syria and Iraq and they all want to come to the UK. They are highly educated and currently working, although not necessarily in their chosen field. 

One of them was on his way here via Denmark when he was thrown into jail and forced to sign papers saying he was seeking asylum in Denmark. He doesn't want to live in Denmark and is threatening to go on hunger strike. I thought Denmark would be quite a nice place to live  but he wants to be here.

I wrote to my MP about the issue of Syrian refugees because we are not taking our fair share.


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## Citizen66 (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm all for open borders, but even the system we have now puts pressure on w/c communities. That isn't the fault of migrants of course, but it is something to consider.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 1, 2015)

Amnesty on Syrian refugees:


> Excluding Germany, the five largest countries in the EU (the UK, France, Italy, Spain and Poland) have pledged just 2,000 places between them constituting just 0.001per cent of their combined populations.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/world-s-pitiful-response-syria-s-refugee-crisis-2014-12-05
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/fact...-crisis-international-resettlement-2014-12-05


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## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Amnesty on Syrian refugees:
> 
> http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/world-s-pitiful-response-syria-s-refugee-crisis-2014-12-05
> http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/fact...-crisis-international-resettlement-2014-12-05


Nobody but nobody in government wants to be seen inviting in refugees (brown ones at that!) in an election year. The kippers would milk it like a gift from god


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Road sign near the terminal:
> 
> View attachment 65832



Years that bit of grafitti has been there, years


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Nobody but nobody in government wants to be seen inviting in refugees (brown ones at that!) in an election year. The kippers would milk it like a gift from god



A proper statesman like I imagine we used to have in the olden days would welcome the kippers' ranting, seeing it as an opportunity to expose their selfishness, racism and lack of basic human decency.

Politicians avoid using the word 'refugee' altogether these days, at least when it comes to dometic policy. The word 'refugee' instantly inspires sympathy, whereas the phrase 'asylum seeker' carries within it the image of someone wanting something from someone else, and the implication that there's a good chance that whatever they want they probably don't deserve it.


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## likesfish (Jan 1, 2015)

A plan has to be worked out expecting Greece and Italy to shoulder the majority of migrants is insane.
  Much like giving a free ticket to everyone who wants to come to the uk is insane.


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## classicdish (Jan 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank

Thanks for this thread.

I've just watched this 12-minute film by The Guardian (Dec. 23 2014) : http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rying-enter-uk-die-shameful-calais-conditions

...this 15-minute film from Vice (July 2014) : http://www.vice.com/en_uk/video/the-migrant-crisis-in-calais-britains-border-war

...plus another 6-minute one from Vice covering a far-right demo in Calais (September 2014) : https://news.vice.com/video/britains-border-wars-dispatch-2?utm_source=vicenewsyoutube


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

likesfish said:


> A plan has to be worked out expecting Greece and Italy to shoulder the majority of migrants is insane.



Greece gets money from the UNHCR to support refugees. They don't spend it on looking after refugees, they just fucking pocket it.

But I agree that the 'first place you get to' rule is mental. It's probably one of the reasons that Southern Europe is having so much trouble with the far right, both on the streets and in quote unquote legitimate politics: lots of migrants who don't want to be there get stranded in, or repeatedly deported back to, Greece and Italy. It's not just about people coming to those countries, it's about them coming there and being given no chance to integrate themselves and become a part of normal society.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2015)

classicdish said:


> SpookyFrank
> 
> Thanks for this thread.
> 
> I've just watched this 12-minute film by The Guardian (Dec. 23 2014) : http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rying-enter-uk-die-shameful-calais-conditions



I was surprised to see that video, not just because the papers don't usually give a shit about this but because lots of the people in the jungles are very wary of journalists.

What you see there is the biggest jungle, the one I mentioned in the OP.


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## brogdale (Jan 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I was surprised to see that video, not just because the papers don't usually give a shit about this but because lots of the people in the jungles are very wary of journalists.
> 
> What you see there is the biggest jungle, the one I mentioned in the OP.


That said, C4's News coverage has been quite impressive, with Paraic Brien's reports being notable for their empathetic tone.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

brogdale said:


> That said, C4's News coverage has been quite impressive, with Paraic Brien's reports being notable for their empathetic tone.



I heard that a channel 4 news cameraman was assaulted by the CRS in Calais just before christmas. Still they're not interested in reporting on the police brutality the migrants suffer on a regular basis, their angle seems to be about people's living conditions and that's all they're interested in. But I expect that's all dictated from higher up and the reporters on the ground don't get much say in the matter.

Vice news reports on Calais are often quite good but I've heard complaints that some of their reporters have acted like, and I quote, insensitive wankers.


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## DownwardDog (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> An asylum system that was fit for purpose would be a very good start.



What would that look like?


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## likesfish (Jan 2, 2015)

Actually dealt with cases in less than a year made the correct decision first time round rather than having loads of appeals because the first decision was completely wrong.
  Either your allowed to stay or your not and your sent packing rather than some khasque nightmare.


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## J Ed (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank can you tell us a bit about the gangs? Who are they made up of?


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## 8115 (Jan 2, 2015)

Is there some element of diplomatic stalemate between the British and the French?

It is a terrible situtation, real shame for each country.

I totally agree with what you say about the waste of potential.


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## brogdale (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I heard that a channel 4 news cameraman was assaulted by the CRS in Calais just before christmas. Still they're not interested in reporting on the police brutality the migrants suffer on a regular basis, their angle seems to be about people's living conditions and that's all they're interested in. But I expect that's all dictated from higher up and the reporters on the ground don't get much say in the matter.



That's probably a fair judgement, in the round, but C4 do seem to have made some attempt to report the views of the migrants:-

http://www.channel4.com/news/calais-migrants-hold-demonstration-as-far-right-closes-in



> Migrants in Calais hoping to make their way to England are holding a demonstration calling for more protection from the police today, as far-right groups plan to protest their presence this weekend.
> 
> They claim to have experienced an increase in the number of physical attacks by French police in the past week and say that they have no confidence that they will protect them when an anti-immigration group marches in Calais on Sunday.
> 
> "In the last weeks many of us had to face a lot of police violence," said one of the migrants, whose identity was not disclosed. "Some of us got broken hands and others broken legs and even some got hurt their heads," they said.


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## youngian (Jan 2, 2015)

Compared to refugee crises that engulf Jordan or Pakistan for example its a drop in the ocean and a hell of a lot more are dispersed throughout the EU. The Mayor of Calais hasn't helped much with her nonsense about generous UK benefits. Although she's keen on asking the British government to stump more money for France's immigration problem. I would guess the reason these particular individuals are there is because their English is better than their French or Spanish and may have contacts in the UK. And despite all the massive barriers many do slip through to England. Anyone that determined deserves to stay.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

8115 said:


> Is there some element of diplomatic stalemate between the British and the French?



Possibly, but there's a lot of direct co-operation as well. Policing in Calais has been scaled up massively in recent months, and the UK government has agreed to contribute to the cost of this. The PAF (police au frontier) who operate within the port itself are entirely funded by the British I think.

On top of that Calais has been 'donated' the mega-fence that was put up around Newport for the NATO summit. The first phase of this is complete, encircling the existing port fence. Soon the fence will be extended along the sides of the motorway for several more miles. 

Some people in France are talking about moving the official border back to UK soil (at present you cross into UK territory at the port in Calais, and pass into French territory in Dover going the other way) so that France will no longer be obliged to do anything about people getting onto ferries because they won't technically be crossing a border. The UK government will not want this to happen, as it would mean that migrants will get bottlenecked in Dover instead of Calais, and instead of 20 miles of sea keeping them out of Britain there will just be a fence.


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## brogdale (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Some people in France are talking about *moving the official border back to UK soil* (at present you cross into UK territory at the port in Calais, and pass into French territory in Dover going the other way) so that France will no longer be obliged to do anything about people getting onto ferries because they won't technically be crossing a border. The UK government will not want this to happen, as it would mean that migrants will get bottlenecked in Dover instead of Calais, and instead of 20 miles of sea keeping them out of Britain there will just be a fence.



Those calls can only grow stronger as the numbers of migrants increases and the anti-EU noises from across the channel grow louder. I'm sure that Serco/G4S would welcome the extra RC business.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

J Ed said:


> SpookyFrank can you tell us a bit about the gangs? Who are they made up of?



Some people call the traffickers 'Mafia' but that suggests something other than slightly organised thugs, which is all they are. There are different groups of gangters operating in Calais and the surrounding area and they change over time as one group gets chased out of town by another group or one group gets rounded up by the police. I know of Egyptian gangs, Kurdish gangs and Pashtun gangs but there are probably others.

The gangs' principal MO is to gain control of a promising parking area or fuel stop where migrants might be able to get on to the lorries. They mostly seem to do this by rocking up with knives and guns and telling everyone that they're in charge now. Migrants will then have to pay to use that area to try for the lorries. The gangs might give you some help with getting on the lorries, and some will know of more reliable ways to get people across than simply clinging to a lorry and hoping for the best. Charges for these services are high, but if you get a relatively nice group of traffickers they might do a sort of fixed price deal where you pay a flat fee no matter how many attempts it takes you to actually get across the border. Of course you might give your money to people who have no idea how to smuggle people across the channel but who have a rigidly enforced 'no refunds' policy nonetheless.

e2a: The gangs kill people. Sometimes they kill each other, sometimes they kill ordinary migrants. Besides the trafficking they also have interests in commodity smuggling, drugs and prostitution. Female migrants can be forced into prostitution to pay the the smugglers if they can't afford to pay cash.

It's important to note that these gangs depend on the border regime for their livelihood. Preventing certain people from travelling legally from one country to another just creates a black market in people, a black market that provides lucrative opportunities for some of the worst people you could ever hope to meet.


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## DownwardDog (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Some people in France are talking about moving the official border back to UK soil (at present you cross into UK territory at the port in Calais, and pass into French territory in Dover going the other way) so that France will no longer be obliged to do anything about people getting onto ferries because they won't technically be crossing a border. The UK government will not want this to happen, as it would mean that migrants will get bottlenecked in Dover instead of Calais, and instead of 20 miles of sea keeping them out of Britain there will just be a fence.



The UK would just start fining the ferry companies for each undocumented or clandestine arrival so then they'd start doing their own ID checks before boarding so the end result would still be the same.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> The UK would just start fining the ferry companies for each undocumented or clandestine arrival so then they'd start doing their own ID checks before boarding so the end result would still be the same.



There'd be ID checks I'm sure, but there might not be the police resources needed to catch people sneaking on to lorries etc. The ferry companies depend on rapid turnaround, I doubt they'd be able to do security checks on every lorry going across the channel.


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## 8ball (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> As an asylum seeker you are supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country you reach, which in the EU's opinion is the first EU country you reach.


 
Is the French government refusing asylum to the people at Calais?


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## Fez909 (Jan 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> Is the French government refusing asylum to the people at Calais?


They aren't claiming asylum in France.



> “Most of the immigrants here have papers for Italy and the whole of the Shengen zone (the border free area of continental Europe). But they want to go to England because they speak a little English and because they think they can work there.”
> 
> “I know the UK is a crowded island and no one wants us. I know the French authorities have a very difficult job. Conditions in these camps are inhuman. But what is the solution? Clearing them will make no difference except to make our lives even more miserable.”
> 
> The Calais asylum-seekers are only a fraction of the hundreds of illegal migrants who enter the European Union each day from Morocco or Turkey or across the Mediterranean from Libya. The great majority remain in Spain or Italy or move on to France or Germany



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-camps-after-outbreak-of-scabies-9444407.html


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> Is the French government refusing asylum to the people at Calais?



You can apply for asylum in France provided you haven't already applied elsewhere in the Schengen area but you'll get no state support whatsoever, no travel documents, no right to work. So there are people in the jungles in Calais who are waiting for their asylum claims to be processed by the French state, which can take years.

I think people choose to stay in Calais even when they're not trying to cross to the UK because there are others there from their home countries, others who speak their language, and they can find some community there and some support. The alternative would be to go off and be homeless in another part of France. Even if you can afford to rent a home in France, few landlords will rent anything to undocumented migrants and it may even be illegal to do so.

Another reason people stay in Calais once they've applied for asylum in France is that they have a chance to help other people, they can work with the charitable associations and the activists who support other migrants and they can find ways to make themselves useful despite their state of limbo. There are a couple of people who have been granted asylum by France and have since settled in Calais permanently so that they can continue to help other migrants.

I think the French asylum system is similar to Britain's in that you can find yourself spirited off to a detention centre or deported arbitrarily at any point in the process. If your fingerprints are on a database anywhere else in the Schengen area and you apply for asylum in France your feet won't touch the ground, and given that most of the migrants have passed through Greece, Italy or eastern Europe on their way to France applying for aslyum there simply isn't an option for them.


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## 8ball (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> You can apply for asylum in France provided you haven't already applied elsewhere in the Schengen area but you'll get no state support whatsoever, no travel documents, no right to work. So there are people in the jungles in Calais who are waiting for their asylum claims to be processed by the French state, which can take years.


 
This is really shit.  If you are going to have a unified asylum area you should obviously have unified processes overseen by an independent EU (or Schengen-level) body.


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## moon (Jan 2, 2015)

Geri said:


> One of them was on his way here via Denmark when he was thrown into jail and forced to sign papers saying he was seeking asylum in Denmark. He doesn't want to live in Denmark and is threatening to go on hunger strike. I thought Denmark would be quite a nice place to live  but he wants to be here.



It could be a language issue? English being one of the most widely spoken second languages in the world, it would make sense that someone looking for work would seek employment in an english speaking country?

Also imho the likes of UKIP are actually causing an increase in numbers of migrants, as people scramble to get into the country before immigration controls tighten..


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## bluescreen (Jan 2, 2015)

Much appreciating all your insight here, SpookyFrank. Many thanks. The stories about the CRS &c are particularly illuminating and shocking. That story about the pepper spray is just disgusting, but then so much around this whole issue is.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> This is really shit.  If you are going to have a unified asylum area you should obviously have unified processes overseen by an independent EU (or Schengen-level) body.



But the powerful EU member states in northern Europe are happy to continue saddling Italy and Greece with the majority of the refugees, and they're the ones who are able to dictate EU policy.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Much appreciating all your insight here, SpookyFrank. Many thanks. The stories about the CRS &c are particularly illuminating and shocking. That story about the pepper spray is just disgusting, but then so much around this whole issue is.



I tell people about the pepper spray thing and they just look at me dumbfounded and say, 'why would they do that?'

I don't have an answer to that question. Nobody does. I'm not capable of comprehending the reasons why people do such foul things.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

moon said:


> It could be a language issue? English being one of the most widely spoken second languages in the world, it would make sense that someone looking for work would seek employment in an english speaking country?
> 
> Also imho the likes of UKIP are actually causing an increase in numbers of migrants, as people scramble to get into the country before immigration controls tighten..



It's worth remembering that most people outside the UK don't read British newspapers. All these things that are supposedly acting as a magnet for migrants, well plenty of migrants don't know a damn thing about any of them.


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## 8ball (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I tell people about the pepper spray thing and they just look at me dumbfounded and say, 'why would they do that?'
> 
> I don't have an answer to that question. Nobody does. I'm not capable of comprehending the reasons why people do such foul things.


 
Just following orders.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> Just following orders.



They fucking love it. The CRS wave their tear gas canisters around like Yosemite Sam twirling his revolvers.

The police in Calais are massively over-resourced. Ten CRS coppers might turn up to one minor incident involving two people. One copper will do the talking, another will take notes or talk on his radio and the rest will just stand around with shit-eating grins on their faces faux-casually toying with the arsenal of weapons sequestered about their, for want of a better word, person.


----------



## moon (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's worth remembering that most people outside the UK don't read British newspapers. All these things that are supposedly acting as a magnet for migrants, well plenty of migrants don't know a damn thing about any of them.


BBC News, World Service, Word of mouth...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

moon said:


> BBC News, World Service, Word of mouth...



The world service is being dismembered rapidly. IIRC the Pashtun language service is among those recently discontinued, and Pashtun speakers make up a large proportion of the migrants trying to reach the UK by nonconventional means.

As for word of mouth, word of mouth talks a lot of shit sometimes. Particularly when the chain of chinese whispers extends across continents.


----------



## moon (Jan 2, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> The world service is being dismembered rapidly. IIRC the Pashtun language service is among those recently discontinued, and Pashtun speakers make up a large proportion of the migrants trying to reach the UK by nonconventional means.
> 
> As for word of mouth, word of mouth talks a lot of shit sometimes. Particularly when the chain of chinese whispers extends across continents.


Ok believe what you will..


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

moon said:


> Ok believe what you will..



How much do you know about what's going on in, say, Eritrea? Possibly not all that much.

And you live in a country with a free press, and speak one of the most commonly spoken languages on Earth. Now imagine you're Eritrean. Your home country is at the very bottom of world rankings for freedom of the press. Your native language is spoken by fewer than ten million people. Your route to Europe, across the Sahara desert and the Mediterranean sea, was notable for its lack of internet cafes. How much are you likely to know about what Nigel Farage has been saying this week?


----------



## moon (Jan 2, 2015)

Uuumm the telephone??


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2015)




----------



## Geri (Jan 2, 2015)

moon said:


> It could be a language issue? English being one of the most widely spoken second languages in the world, it would make sense that someone looking for work would seek employment in an english speaking country?


 
I imagine that is a large part of it, but I think there is more to it as well. I asked a Pakistani friend why he wanted to come to the UK (for holiday, he is in the army) and he said "UK is perfect country". I soon put him right on that though!


----------



## moon (Jan 2, 2015)

Probably because his own country was trashed by the British Raj


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2015)

From personal experience working in a refugee centre abroad I wouldn't say benefits attract people in these countries but there's a frequent perception that the streets in the UK and western countries in general are paved with jobs.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2015)

Also you would be surprised how much some people do know. We had a syrian client who lectured me about Nick Griffin's question time appearance (and agreed with him)  unfortunately he seemed to believe that his erm expertise in politics would be a reason for the British government to let him into the uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Also you would be surprised how much some people do know. We had a syrian client who lectured me about Nick Griffin's question time appearance (and agreed with him)  unfortunately he seemed to believe that his erm expertise in politics would be a reason for the British government to let him into the uk



One bloke I met asked me how he could get an appointment to see the queen to make his asylum claim. After I spent a while trying to explain as delicately as possible that the queen isn't _directly _responsible for this sort of thing and that he might not be able to talk to her in person, it became clear that he was taking the piss  

Lots of the Syrians I met had smartphones, so they generally had a better idea of what was going on in the UK than the Africans. They also know exactly what's happening back home, which in the circumstances is a mixed blessing.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2015)

Also many people where I was working thought we were lying about the economic situation in the uk to stop them going there.


----------



## moon (Jan 2, 2015)

They also come to start small businesses..you could be surprised at who is driving your minicab too, might be a former government minister from a country whose economy has been trashed.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jan 2, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Also you would be surprised how much some people do know. We had a syrian client who lectured me about Nick Griffin's question time appearance (and agreed with him)




.....hasn't Griffin got form for playing at being a politician in places like Libya & Syria....not entirely inconceivable he may actually be the only UK politician besides Blair / Cameron some of those folks have ever heard of....


----------



## DownwardDog (Jan 3, 2015)

8ball said:


> Is the French government refusing asylum to the people at Calais?



France, in constrast with the UK, has a) contributions based benefits system b) ID cards and c) compulsory address registration.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 3, 2015)

decent posts frank- informative . Dare I say this, but you seeem to be maturing a shit load on this forum over the years  - and I mean that in  the most complimentary way. honest!


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 3, 2015)

moon said:


> They also come to start small businesses..you could be surprised at who is driving your minicab too, might be a former government minister from a country whose economy has been trashed.



a mate - ex black cabbie- reiterated the urban myth that all asylum seekers AUTOMATICALLY get cab licences are part of their MASSIVE £££££ resettlement package when they arrive in the uk. I put him right pretty sharpish.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2015)

moon said:


> Ok believe what you will..



TBF, the whole word of mouth thing only goes so far. A bigger drive factor historically than benefits and work has been the fact of possible citizenship. Bear in mInd that several of the economically more powerful EU states have a policy of making the route to citizenship so long and expensive that asylum seekers and "guest workers" are discouraged from taking it.  I had Lebanese friends who, although French was their 2nd language, came here in the nineties because if they stayed, the chance of eventual British citizenship was much greater than French citizenship if they settled in France.


----------



## DownwardDog (Jan 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, the whole word of mouth thing only goes so far. A bigger drive factor historically than benefits and work has been the fact of possible citizenship. Bear in mInd that several of the economically more powerful EU states have a policy of making the route to citizenship so long and expensive that asylum seekers and "guest workers" are discouraged from taking it.  I had Lebanese friends who, although French was their 2nd language, came here in the nineties because if they stayed, the chance of eventual British citizenship was much greater than French citizenship if they settled in France.



The path to become a naturalised citizen in France is now roughly the same as the UK - 5 years of continuous residence. Both my wife's parents became French citizens that way.


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2015)

Ditto ^a Iranian friend, never spoke much about his time living in france except for it was 'horrible', had some cracking stories about his national service guarding trucks of cut ice transported down from the mountain to be used for the garrisons daily water ration,being so cold that when someone went off duty they'd crawl into bed next to someone else for warmth,waking up after one particularly cold night not able to move for so many bodies pinning him down.

Despite claiming asylum here,I don't think he was interested in full Citizenship, his dream was to someday return to Iran when the situation regarding Ahmadinejad improved.
He took it really badly when the Green revolution failed and he took to himself despite my best efforts to maintain contact.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> My intention with this thread is to highlight the consequences of the immigration policy we currently have, and the policies of the EU as a whole.
> 
> Whatever we think the consequences of changing those policies would be, the current situation is unacceptable. My personal position is that any system for controlling migration is both inherently racist and necessary for the maintenance of inequality, but I understand why people might some kind of middle ground between open borders and what we have now. An asylum system that was fit for purpose would be a very good start.




why on earth is wanting to restrict numbers of people coming into a country racist? 

racism is believing there are biologically different races, and some are better than others.

what has that got to do with immigration policy?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> why on earth is wanting to restrict numbers of people coming into a country racist?
> 
> racism is believing there are biologically different races, and some are better than others.
> 
> what has that got to do with immigration policy?



We allow Europeans come to this country indefinitely without a visa, while Arabs and Africans might find it impossible to get a visa even to visit.

Where you come from has a huge effect on where you can travel to and where you can live. It's the biggest single factor affecting your freedom of movement at an international level. How on earth is that situation not racist?

What's the largest group of illegal immigrants in the UK? Australians. Do you see home office campaigns focussed on driving out all the aussie visa overstayers? No, because they're too busy raiding chinatowns and African communities instead. Why is that do you think?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, the whole word of mouth thing only goes so far. A bigger drive factor historically than benefits and work has been the fact of possible citizenship. Bear in mInd that several of the economically more powerful EU states have a policy of making the route to citizenship so long and expensive that asylum seekers and "guest workers" are discouraged from taking it.  I had Lebanese friends who, although French was their 2nd language, came here in the nineties because if they stayed, the chance of eventual British citizenship was much greater than French citizenship if they settled in France.



One thing most migrants trying to get to the UK do seem to be aware of is that there are existing communities of just about every group of people you care to name in the UK.

It's not all gravy and roses for immigrants here in the UK, but it is better here than in much of the rest of the world, certainly most of the rest of Europe. Once upon a time that was something British people were generally proud of. I'd say it's about the last thing we still have to be proud of.

Some of the stories I've heard about how migrants are treated in our fellow EU states would make your blood run cold.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> The path to become a naturalised citizen in France is now roughly the same as the UK - 5 years of continuous residence. Both my wife's parents became French citizens that way.



And it's been like that for about, IIRC, 7 years, same as Germany?  And that only happened because both internal and external pressure got to the point where it was more politically-convenient to do it than not.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> why on earth is wanting to restrict numbers of people coming into a country racist?



I don't have a clue how old you are (I'm on my half-century), but in my lifetime there's been a trend that's always been noticeable from my perch in working class south London, and that's a trend where if you're white and an immigrant, you get a smoother ride than if you're non-white and an immigrant, so when we're talking about restrictions, we're not talking about an even playing field restricting *all* immigration, we invariably mean "restricting immigration of non-whites and/or people who aren't immediately useful to us".  Now, that *is* racist. It's "the system" being racist, because the structures that govern immigration are...wait for it...institutionally racist.



> racism is believing there are biologically different races, and some are better than others.



That's *a* definition of racism, sure. A more coherent one would be to say that it's the practice of discrimination against people depending on their ethnicity. "Racism" is an easy label to apply, but it's more of a shorthand for a whole complex set of ideas nowadays than your definition implies.



> what has that got to do with immigration policy?



You tell me! It's not difficult to discern if you think about it, even for a Lion!


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> We allow Europeans come to this country indefinitely without a visa, while Arabs and Africans might find it impossible to get a visa even to visit.
> 
> Where you come from has a huge effect on where you can travel to and where you can live. It's the biggest single factor affecting your freedom of movement at an international level. How on earth is that situation not racist?



You really think that it's about people's race? Of course it isn't.

There are many countries outside of Europe that we would need a visa to visit and would find it almost impossible to get a visa to stay over to reside or work.

Even for India, we need a visa to visit the place, yet they don't need a visa to visit the UK. Unfair? Yes. Racist against Europeans? No.

Pakistan for example, it's impossible for any of us to live or work there - there is no immigration into Pakistan...period. Unfair? Yes. Racist? No.

Japan. Almost impossible for anyone outside of Japan to get a right to reside. Unfair? Possibly. Racist? No.

There is a reason why someone opposed to mass immigration wants the UK to pull out of EU...it gives us the chance to halt the whole bloody lot without anyone implying that the UK is racist.



> What's the largest group of illegal immigrants in the UK? Australians. Do you see home office campaigns focussed on driving out all the aussie visa overstayers? No, because they're too busy raiding chinatowns and African communities instead. Why is that do you think?



There is no "Aussie town" in London, the Aussies could be working absolutely anywhere. A raid on a place like Chinatown would be low hanging fruit for the Border Service (or whatever they are called these days.)

Also, an Australian at some point is going back home. They aren't staying here so they can send money back home, they are overstaying because it's very much fun and they don't want to go home just yet...but they will...because they'll be missing family and friends.

So getting back to it - it's money. We all know the reason why people risk life and limb to come here...is for better economic prospects.

We all would migrate if we could. If I could land a job in the U.S. or Switzerland for 4 times as much, I'd be off...if they would have me...but if they won't have me...well...I have to respect that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Pakistan for example, it's impossible for any of us to live or work there - there is no immigration into Pakistan...period.



I have friends from the UK who are living and working in Pakistan.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> So getting back to it - it's money. We all know the reason why people risk life and limb to come here...is for better economic prospects.



We don't all know that, in fact many of us know for a fact that it's a load of bollocks. Would you risk your life for better economic prospects? I wouldn't, I'd rather be broke and still alive thanks.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I have friends who are living and working in Pakistan.



Fair enough, but my point stands - there are many countries outside the EU that we simply can't just migrate to.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> We don't all know that, in fact many of us know for a fact that it's a load of bollocks. Would you risk your life for better economic prospects? I wouldn't, I'd rather be broke and still alive thanks.



They are broke and alive in France...yet they still risk their lives. Of course not all  would do that, but some are.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Fair enough, but my point stands - there are many countries outside the EU that we simply can't just migrate to.



A British passport allows you to travel to 173 countries without applying for a visa.

With an Eritrean passport (Eritreans are one of the main groups of people trying to enter the UK illegally through Calais) you can travel to just 36 countries without applying for a visa.

http://www.ibtimes.com/best-passports-have-unrestricted-travel-around-world-1422038


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> They are broke and alive in France...yet they still risk their lives. Of course not all  would do that, but some are.



The ones who are alive are still alive yes. Many others are not. At least 15 migrants died in Calais alone in 2014. I'm sure you've heard about the many thousands who have drowned in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe, and the hundreds of others who have only narrowly avoided the same fate in just the last week. The risk of death is not a trivial one.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Right, that's enough troll-feeding, anyone else have a serious question?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> A British passport allows you to travel to 173 countries without applying for a visa.
> 
> With an Eritrean passport (Eritreans are one of the main groups of people trying to enter the UK illegally through Calais) you can travel to just 36 countries without applying for a visa.
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/best-passports-have-unrestricted-travel-around-world-1422038



Yep. That's the way that it normally works. It's one of the poorest countries on the planet, therefore we're talking about economic migration.

Nothing to do with race at all.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> The ones who are alive are still alive yes. Many others are not. At least 15 migrants died in Calais alone in 2014. I'm sure you've heard about the many thousands who have drowned in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe, and the hundreds of others who have only narrowly avoided the same fate in just the last week. The risk of death is not a trivial one.



So tell me. Why are they risking their lives to come here?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> It's one of the poorest countries on the planet, therefore we're talking about economic migration.



Also one of the most repressive countries on Earth, but I'm sure that's not a factor at all


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> So tell me. Why are they risking their lives to come here?



Lots of people, lots of different reasons. Some people have more than one reason, if you can believe that. An even greater risk of death if they stay in their home countries is a fairly common one. You can presumably see why factors besides economics might induce someone to leave, for example, Syria?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Also one of the most repressive countries on Earth, but I'm sure that's not a factor at all



Do you really think that country after country doesn't want these people because:

A) They're not white European.
B) They come from a country with an oppressive regime.
C) They are piss poor...and fuck me...if we let some in...it will never end.

It's  C - rightly or wrongly. But nothing to do with racism.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of people, lots of different reasons. Some people have more than one reason, if you can believe that. An even greater risk of death if they stay in their home countries is a fairly common one. You can presumably see why factors besides economics might induce someone to leave, for example, Syria?



There is no direct flights from Syria to Britain. You admitted yourself that they get a better deal here than in other European countries.

So again, it's not about a desire to live, but a desire to have something better.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Do you really think that country after country doesn't want these people because:
> 
> A) They're not white European.
> B) They come from a country with an oppressive regime.
> ...



The world isn't multiple choice. If you think racism is not a factor in how migrants are treated in European countries then you evidently have no fucking idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> The world isn't multiple choice. If you think racism is not a factor in how migrants are treated in European countries then you evidently have no fucking idea what you're talking about.



Oh dear oh dear oh dear, you are flip flopping all over the place. 

That's not the original claim that you made. You attacked the fact that citizens of certain non European countries would need visas to visit European countries, as somehow racist. 

It has been pointed out to you the reasoning behind such policies, now you're flip flopping into the realm of how non European illegals / asylum seekers are treated by various officials once they are here - that's an entirely different thing altogether.

Fuck me, a pack of racist French cops fucking about with a bunch of migrants should not dictate UK immigration policy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2015)

Can someone else talk to this fuckwit now please? I'm out.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Can someone else talk to this fuckwit now please? I'm out.



So you can't prove your allegation that it's somehow racist to have citizens from poorer countries outside the EU apply for visas before visiting the EU?


----------



## FNG (Jan 4, 2015)

> Even for India, we need a visa to visit the place, yet they don't need a visa to visit the UK. Unfair? Yes. Racist against Europeans? No.



 utter bullshit you would need at least a general visitor visa to come from india to uk, which costs £83 for application non refundable if turned down

https://www.gov.uk/general-visit-visa
*What you can and can’t do*
You can study for up to 30 days, as long as it’s not the main reason for your visit.

You can’t:


take paid or unpaid work
live in the UK for long periods of time through frequent visits
marry or register a civil partnership, or give notice of marriage or civil partnership
get private medical treatment
get public funds


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

FNG said:


> utter bullshit you would need at least a general visitor visa to come from india to uk, which costs £83 for application non refundable if turned down
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/general-visit-visa
> *What you can and can’t do*
> ...



So  they've changed their policy on India since Blair's government. Why was that then? Ah yes because people were taking the piss by overstaying, working when they shouldn't etc etc etc.

We still need a visa to visit India. 

Where's the racism? (Not necessarily a question directed at FNG more at SpookyFrank)


----------



## FNG (Jan 4, 2015)

not interested in talking to someone who trots out falsisms like that.
im out


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

"OK, so you've shown what I said to be demonstrably false, but that doesn't affect the point I'm making in any way"


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> "OK, so you've shown what I said to be demonstrably false, but that doesn't affect the point I'm making in any way"



Erh no...you shown that one of many points I've made to make my case is false, not that I don't have a case, which is that it isn't racist to have EU border controls.

Besides, most people who oppose your views, would argue for tight UK immigration controls and a UK exit from the EU to reclaim the borders.

So your whole _European free movement + European secure borders = racism _arguement is moot.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

FNG said:


> not interested in talking to someone who trots out falsisms like that.
> im out



FFS. So I was out of date on UK policy on Indian Visas, it's not in the same galaxy as making some crass generalisation lifted from the Daily Mail.

If you think I did that deliberately, I really don't care, because I know I was being sincere and honest.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

"I may have lied, but I did so honestly."

You should get a job doing PR work for Prince Andrew.


----------



## kenny g (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> I really don't care, because I know I was being sincere and honest.



Great, now fuck off. 

Leaving this "mistake" aside. Anyone who believes the increase in migrants from Syria is due to economic reasons is a fucking idiot, however sincere and honest they may claim to be.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

kenny g said:


> Great, now fuck off.
> 
> Leaving this "mistake" aside. Anyone who believes the increase in migrants from Syria is due to economic reasons is a fucking idiot, however sincere and honest they may claim to be.



As I said. There is no direct flight from Syria to the UK....so....


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> As I said. There is no direct flight from Syria to the UK....so....


so.... refugees have to come via other countries to get here?

or is it your contention that the UK shouldn't take our fair share of refugees from countries that are being devastated by a war in which few of those involved are paying any heed to the Geneva convention / protecting civilians.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> As I said. There is no direct flight from Syria to the UK....so....


So?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Thanks for this thread, SpookyFrank - very illuminating, if depressing reading


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> So?



So they would have come through multiple countries, many of which they could have claimed asylum at.

Therefore, they are asylum seekers at the first country, but cease to be so at the second, in which they would be economic migrants if they get anywhere near the UK.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> So they would have come through multiple countries, many of which they could have claimed asylum at.
> 
> Therefore, they are asylum seekers at the first country, but cease to be so at the second, in which they would be economic migrants if they get anywhere near the UK.


That's not true at all. Look at the make up of the jungles in Calais. All refugees from war torn countries. You think it's a co-incidence?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Thanks for this thread, SpookyFrank - very illuminating, if depressing reading



No problem. I find doing some kind of 'info dump' when I come back from Calais helps me to process my own thoughts and experiences. I'm glad to see people are taking an interest.

Just on that note, and relating to the 'border controls aren't racist' argument, I find coming home from Calais after spending time with all these people is a strange experience because of how easy it is for me. I stroll up to the ferry terminal, flash my passport, pay my 30 euros and then try and find a comfy place on the boat to take a nap for an hour or so before we arrive in the UK. And there are all these people I've left behind me for whom it may ultimately prove impossible to make that same journey, and probably some who will be killed in the attempt. What's the difference between them and me? They have different coloured skin, and they come from a different country. Because of those two things, our experiences and the way we are treated are so vastly different that you might think we were different species altogether. So when I hear people say there's nothing racist about border controls, I know with cast-iron certainty that they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> That's not true at all. Look at the make up of the jungles in Calais. All refugees from war torn countries. You think it's a co-incidence?



Watch out, he's about to explain that this is simply because war is bad for the economy.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> That's not true at all. Look at the make up of the jungles in Calais. All refugees from war torn countries. You think it's a co-incidence?



Is there a war going on in France then?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> No problem. I find doing some kind of 'info dump' when I come back from Calais helps me to process my own thoughts and experiences. I'm glad to see people are taking an interest.
> 
> Just on that note, and relating to the 'border controls aren't racist' argument, I find coming home from Calais after spending time with all these people is a strange experience because of how easy it is for me. I stroll up to the ferry terminal, flash my passport, pay my 30 euros and then try and find a comfy place on the boat to take a nap for an hour or so before we arrive in the UK. And there are all these people I've left behind me for whom it may ultimately prove impossible to make that same journey, and probably some who will be killed in the attempt. What's the difference between them and me? They have different coloured skin, and they come from a different country. Because of those two things, our experiences and the way we are treated are so vastly different that you might think we were different species altogether. So when I hear people say there's nothing racist about border controls, I know with cast-iron certainty that they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.



Oh fucking please. Yeah like border control gave you a smile and a wink and said "No need to get out your passport sir, you're clearly British because of your white skin!"

Look around you. There are millions of people who aren't white that are legally entitled to be in the UK. A load of them would have been on the same ferry as you.


----------



## bluescreen (Jan 4, 2015)

Why is it so important to you to 'prove'* that aggressive border control against refugees isn't racist? Isn't the sheer human misery it creates enough for you to question its morality?

*'Prove' is in inverted commas because you can't prove it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

No racism in Europe, see:



> A Roma baby girl has been denied a burial space by a French mayor, sparking outrage among activists.
> 
> The girl, who died on Christmas Day, reportedly of sudden infant death syndrome, was refused burial in Champlan, south of Paris.
> 
> The mayor said priority had to be given to taxpayers.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30670371


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Is there a war going on in France then?



Why does it matter that someone passes through several countries before they settle? If you were fleeing for your life, uprooting your family to start afresh, wouldn't to try to make it to a land where you feel you were best able to make a living for yourself? This doesn't make someone any less of a refugee. It doesn't suddenly turn them into an 'economic migrant' whatever that is. It makes them human.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> No racism in Europe, see:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30670371



What does that story have to do with anything or more importantly immigration rules?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Oh fucking please. Yeah like border control gave you a smile and a wink and said "No need to get out your passport sir, you're clearly British because of your white skin!"



I did once travel back from Calais with a friend, a British man of Arab heritage with an obviously Arabic-sounding name. On that occasion we were taken in for questioning by customs officials.

Just coincidence, I expect.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Why does it matter that someone passes through several countries before they settle? If you were fleeing for your life, uprooting your family to start afresh, wouldn't to try to make it to a land where you feel you were best able to make a living for yourself? This doesn't make someone any less of a refugee. It doesn't suddenly turn them into an 'economic migrant' whatever that is. It makes them human.



Who is blaming them? I'm certainly not. But as far as we should be concerned in the UK, they are economic migrants because they aren't here because they are in fear of their lives on continental Europe.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I did once travel back from Calais with a friend, a British man of Arab heritage with an obviously Arabic-sounding name. On that occasion we were taken in for questioning by customs officials.
> 
> Just coincidence, I expect.



I'm white. I keep getting followed around by a middle eastern security guard every time I visit a shop.

Just coincidence, I expect.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Who is blaming them? I'm certainly not. But as far as we should be concerned in the UK, they are economic migrants because they aren't here because they are in fear of their lives on continental Europe.



And you know this how exactly?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> I'm white.



Yes, I think we've all guessed that already.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Who is blaming them? I'm certainly not. But as far as we should be concerned in the UK, they are economic migrants because they aren't here because they are in fear of their lives on continental Europe.



The only reason to classify them as economic migrants is so that we don't have to feel guilty about not helping out as much as we should. Half of the wars in this world are caused by us anyway; we should be taking on a fair share of the people displaced as a result.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Why is it so important to you to 'prove'* that aggressive border control against refugees isn't racist? Isn't the sheer human misery it creates enough for you to question its morality?
> 
> *'Prove' is in inverted commas because you can't prove it.



I do question it's morality. But to say that there is racism when there is none, creates a diversion away from the real causes of the problems in the first place.

Unregulated capitalism running amok and the hands of corrupt politicians on the take, rather than breaking up large banks that are party of a very profitable war machine is where I lay the blame.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> The only reason to classify them as economic migrants is so that we don't have to feel guilty about not helping out as much as we should. Half of the wars in this world are caused by us anyway; we should be taking on a fair share of the people displaced as a result.



No. I'm more for breaking up the banks, stopping the wars and having the fucking Queen beg for money by offering blow jobs to people on the steps of Clapham Common tube station, than a fudge "fix" of having unfettered immigration that helps the rich rather than normal working class people.

Close the borders. Turn Buck Palace into a place for homeless immigrants etc.

Get the aristocracy, strip them of their land and assets and give the lot away to people in Calais for all I care.

I'm just fucked off to the back teeth of the country "borrowing" money from rich banking families that didn't have the money in the first place, for the debt to be paid back in real money from the country's poor.

No money for asylum seekers
No money for Trident
No money for foreign aid

The country is fucking broke!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

What an embittered little shit you are.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Who is blaming them? I'm certainly not. But as far as we should be concerned in the UK, they are economic migrants because they aren't here because they are in fear of their lives on continental Europe.


You raise a valid point, but to me it makes it fairly clear that the answer should be that once an asylum seeker is granted refugee status within any EU country, they should then have freedom of movement across the EU.

The current situation is untenable, as the EU we need to take collective responsibility though, otherwise those countries who just happen to border countries that have collapsed will end up being overwhelmed with refugee numbers, whereas if they're spread around the EU then it shouldn't cause significant problems.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> What an embittered little shit you are.



Yep, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm an embittered little shit!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Close the borders
> 
> No money for asylum seekers
> No money for foreign aid
> ...



You're a cunt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> The current situation is untenable, as the EU we need to take collective responsibility though, otherwise those countries who just happen to border countries that have collapsed will end up being overwhelmed with refugee numbers, whereas if they're spread around the EU then it shouldn't cause significant problems.



We could also stop supporting the fucked up regimes that cause all these wars in the first place.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> You raise a valid point, but to me it makes it fairly clear that the answer should be that once an asylum seeker is granted refugee status within any EU country, they should then have freedom of movement across the EU.
> 
> The current situation is untenable, as the EU we need to take collective responsibility though, otherwise those countries who just happen to border countries that have collapsed will end up being overwhelmed with refugee numbers, whereas if they're spread around the EU then it shouldn't cause significant problems.



I would imagine why they aren't, is the whole thing is open to corruption if they were. It would become very easy for bent officials in gateway countries to simply take a backhander, moving the refugee on.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> No. I'm more for breaking up the banks, stopping the wars and having the fucking Queen beg for money by offering blow jobs to people on the steps of Clapham Common tube station, than a fudge "fix" of having unfettered immigration that helps the rich rather than normal working class people.
> 
> Close the borders. Turn Buck Palace into a place for homeless immigrants etc.
> 
> ...


Oh dear. Fuck everyone else. I'm alright jack. Just help out your own.
Kindly fuck off to UKIP


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're a cunt.



That's human nature isn't it? 

We're never interested in what unites us...it's that 1% that we disagree on that we get badly distracted by.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> That's human nature isn't it?
> 
> We're never interested in what unites us...it's that 1% that we disagree on that we get badly distracted by.


Hmm, the whole thread was in part designed (correct me if I'm wrong, SpookyFrank ) to show that the refugees in the jungles are actually just like us and that racism, fear of immigration and propaganda conspire to make them differrent, alien and to be feared


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh dear. Fuck everyone else. I'm alright jack. Just help out your own.
> Kindly fuck off to UKIP



I can't help out anyone. I don't have any money. 

If you found out your neighbour was broke, would you borrow money to GIVE to your neighbour?

Of course you wouldn't.

But you think it's morally just, to tax poor people in this country who haven't got pot to piss in, to borrow money from rich bankers, for poor people to pay back using real money they generated through blood sweat and tears - to help out people who were displaced, by a war, that rich bankers financed.

Sorry, but I don't want the whole thing to go full circle with the bankers laughing all the way to the erh...bank!

UKIP? LOL. I don't think so. Thankfully most working class people have worked out what UKIP is all about - the fucking bankers party!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> That's human nature isn't it?
> 
> We're never interested in what unites us...it's that 1% that we disagree on that we get badly distracted by.



Hardly surprising when that 1% involves cunting off poor, displaced people who are desparate for our help.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Hmm, the whole thread was in part designed (correct me if I'm wrong, SpookyFrank ) to show that the refugees in the jungles are actually just like us and that racism, fear of immigration and propaganda conspire to make them differrent, alien and to be feared



Go and visit a building site and ask the natives + 2nd generation immigrants that work there, what they fear and it won't tally up with what you're mooting about.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Hmm, the whole thread was in part designed (correct me if I'm wrong, SpookyFrank ) to show that the refugees in the jungles are actually just like us and that racism, fear of immigration and propaganda conspire to make them differrent, alien and to be feared



Amongst other things yes. This situation has been created by our governments in what we are told is our best interest. People should know what is being done in their name.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Hardly surprising when that 1% involves cunting off poor, displaced people who are desparate for our help.



It's rather more than 1% from where I'm standing.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Hardly surprising when that 1% involves cunting off poor, displaced people who are desparate for our help.



Who's cunting off the poor?

You run around accusing people of creating a climate of fear, when you want to be looking at the hysteria that is coming from your own fingertips & keyboard.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Go and visit a building site and ask the natives + 2nd generation immigrants that work there, what they fear and it won't tally up with what you're mooting about.



You know what everyone thinks about everything don't you? That's quite a talent. 

Some fears are baseless, like my fear of receptionists. Other fears are manufactured, like your fear of immigrants somehow bankrupting a country which has depended on migration for its prosperity for centuries.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Hmm, the whole thread was in part designed (correct me if I'm wrong, SpookyFrank ) to show that the refugees in the jungles are actually just like us and that racism, fear of immigration and propaganda conspire to make them differrent, alien and to be feared



Also, I don't think I've read something so patronising in a long time. 

Of course refugees are just like us!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Fuck off


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> You know what everyone thinks about everything don't you? That's quite a talent.
> 
> Some fears are baseless, like my fear of receptionists. Other fears are manufactured, like your fear of immigrants somehow bankrupting a country which has depended on migration for its prosperity for centuries.



You can't kill that which is already dead, just as you can't bankrupt a country that is already bankrupt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Of course refugees are just like us!



So why don't you want any of them living in the same country as you?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Fuck off



I'll be coming down to London from up North soon. Can I not pop around to yours and discuss it all over a cup of tea?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> I'll be coming down to London from up North soon. Can I not pop around to yours and discuss it all over a cup of tea?


I'd rather not have delusional prejudiced selfish idiots round for tea


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

This is all my fault. I allowed myself to think, 'this thread is going pretty well'. Now look what's happened


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> So why don't you want any of them living in the same country as you?



It's not them I fear, actually, it's the deadly fucking corrupt politicians and people you like you. I'm sure you have different motives than the Westminster set...I'm sure you're heart is in the right place, but you're bloody dangerous!


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> I'd rather not have delusional prejudiced selfish idiots round for tea



You're a natural aren't you? Sloganeering without even a thought going into it...tell me...how the fuck am I being prejudiced?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> This is all my fault. I allowed myself to think, 'this thread is going pretty well'. Now look what's happened


Apologies. Should not be rising to such facile provocation.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> This is all my fault. I allowed myself to think, 'this thread is going pretty well'. Now look what's happened



I'm a gentleman. I'll fuck off and leave you to talk about the welfare of refugees in Calais. It's not something I'm passionate about. I can't afford to be and there's fuck all difference I'll make.

XX


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2015)

e2a: Nah, fuck it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> You're a natural aren't you? Sloganeering without even a thought going into it...tell me...how the fuck am I being prejudiced?


You're the one who wants to stop foreign aid and close the borders. The mark of a fearful racist who doesn't want to help anyone but their own.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> You're the one who wants to stop foreign aid and close the borders. The mark of a fearful racist who doesn't want to help anyone but their own.



You're being simplistic. We just don't have the money. I could give you an endless list of causes this country can't afford.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> You're being simplistic. We just don't have the money. I could give you an endless list of causes this country can't afford.


We have loads of money. We're one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We also have the privilege of a considerable amount of freedom. We have the ability and duty to look after those whose countries are fucked up, as a consequence of our own wealth and freedoms.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Who's cunting off the poor?



Sorry. Must have gotten you mixed up with the poster who just posted this.



Spirit Of Slade said:


> Close the borders.
> No money for asylum seekers
> No money for foreign aid


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> You're being simplistic. We just don't have the money. I could give you an endless list of causes this country can't afford.


see this is one of the biggest lies politicians have sold to the UK public.

We're in a far better position as a country financially than for the majority of the time since WW2. The problem is that the money is increasingly being concentrated in the hands of the top 1% or 0.001% of the population who do everything they can to avoid paying tax on it, and also don't recycle that money back into the economy.

And what money was used to attempt to kick start the economy after the 2008 crash pretty much all went into the pockets of those same rich elite one way or another.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> I can't help out anyone. I don't have any money.



You won't find many arguments here about the idea that it's the rich that should pay. No-one's suggesting that _you_ personally fork out the money needed, you complete arsetit.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You won't find many arguments here about the idea that it's the rich that should pay. No-one's suggesting that _you_ personally fork out the money needed, you complete arsetit.



The country would have to...it's broke...and the poor shouldn't be taxed



free spirit said:


> see this is one of the biggest lies politicians have sold to the UK public.
> 
> We're in a far better position as a country financially than for the majority of the time since WW2. The problem is that the money is increasingly being concentrated in the hands of the top 1% or 0.001% of the population who do everything they can to avoid paying tax on it, and also don't recycle that money back into the economy.
> 
> And what money was used to attempt to kick start the economy after the 2008 crash pretty much all went into the pockets of those same rich elite one way or another.



NATIONAL DEBT.

I agree regarding the rich - but if the rich aren't paying their fair share, it means the poor are footing the bill.

It's immoral that the poor in the UK are taxed, when the poor in the UK aren't even being taken care off, especially the elderly.

Anyway...I promised to fuck off and leave you all to talk about Calais!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

At least the poor in the UK aren't generally being bombed and shot.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> NATIONAL DEBT.


my point exactly






You have been lied to. We esablished the NHS and welfare state at a point when our national debt as a proportion of GDP was 3 times as high as it is now.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> The country would have to...it's broke



No. It's not.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> At least the poor in the UK aren't generally being bombed and shot.



That isn't strictly true, but it would certainly would be the case if we stopped getting involved in the affairs of other country, be it Iraq or France.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> No. It's not.



If we are in debt, we're broke.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> That isn't strictly true, but it would certainly would be the case if we stopped getting involved in the affairs of other country, be it Iraq or France.


Not an internationalist then? What does that make you then?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> If we are in debt, we're broke.



We?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Not an internationalist then? What does that make you then?



British I guess.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> If we are in debt, we're broke.



That's not the definition of broke. Anyway, the public debt has existed for 300 years; the only question you should ask is how serviceable that debt is, i.e. how easy is it to pay off given our national income, the maturity of the debt (how long we have to pay it off), the rate of interest on that debt. On all counts we are in a better position now than for most of the history of the country.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

brogdale said:


> We?



Yes we. The working class folk of Britain. 

When some establishment cunt uses the word "We" they certainly aren't including me as part of that "we".


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> That's not the definition of broke. Anyway, the public debt has existed for 300 years; the only question you should ask is how serviceable that debt is, i.e. how easy is it to pay off given our national income, the maturity of the debt (how long we have to pay it off), the rate of interest on that debt. On all counts we are in a better position now than for most of the history of the country.



To coin a question.

Who is we?


----------



## emanymton (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> If we are in debt, we're broke.


Yeah, just like the queen mother, lived in povity she did.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Yeah, just like the queen mother, lived in povity she did.



You can't win. You'll only end up making my points for me.

At the end of the day, it's unfair to tax the poor for failings of both the rich in this country AND abroad.


----------



## Flanflinger (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> At least the poor in the UK aren't generally being bombed and shot.



Why the fuck are you giving Cameron and Osborne ideas ?


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> If we are in debt, we're broke.


rubbish.

Would you say that everyone who has a mortgage is therefore broke?


Spirit Of Slade said:


> You can't win. You'll only end up making my points for me.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's unfair to tax the poor for failings of both the rich in this country AND abroad.


You seem to have a basic misunderstanding about where this board's sympathies lie when it comes to taxation of the working class vs the rich.



> *Richest 1% of people own nearly half of global wealth, says report*


[source]

These parasites are the problem, they're the ones hoarding the money, destroying the economy in the process, and finding new ways to get even richer whatever happens to the rest of us while avoiding paying as much as they possibly can in tax.

If they own 50% of the wealth, then is stands to reason that if the wealth were redistributed and taxed properly, then the governments of the world would have roughly twice as much money to work with, and / or would be able to cut taxes for the working class to compensate.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> To coin a question.
> 
> Who is we?



Those who can afford to pay tax.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank thanks very much for your insights and the work you are doing, bearing witness to some brutal realities.

Spirit Of Slade the UK working class share the same enemies facing migrants at Calais. The only difference, on a _comparative_ basis, is that its easier to disregard the outsider, the other, to deny more of their basic rights in a systemic, institutional way. These are _people_, not just collateral of the global neoliberal set-up or statistics of displacement from war zones. 

We ain't broke, we're unequal. On both sides of the Channel. Stop mining this barren seam.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Yes we. The working class folk of Britain.
> 
> When some establishment cunt uses the word "We" they certainly aren't including me as part of that "we".


 So, the country is "broke", and somehow that status is the exclusive preserve of working class folk?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

eatmorecheese said:


> SpookyFrank thanks very much for your insights and the work you are doing, bearing witness to some brutal realities.
> 
> Spirit Of Slade the UK working class share the same enemies facing migrants at Calais. The only difference, on a _comparative_ basis, is that its easier to disregard the outsider, the other, to deny more of their basic rights in a systemic, institutional way. These are _people_, not just collateral of the global neoliberal set-up or statistics of displacement from war zones.
> 
> We ain't broke, we're unequal. On both sides of the Channel. Stop mining this barren seam.



Indeed we do face the same enemies. I appreciate that they are real people. But they are different people, with cultural differences, that while I can appreciate in a positive way, our enemies will exploit those differences in quite paradoxical ways and no offence intended, but some people on this thread are unwitting tools.

It's people who see racism in just about any situation that involves immigrants, that really scares me. Not the immigrants themselves.

Sometimes, I just feel like packing my bags and going to a country like Argentina or Japan - I dunno, somewhere I can live without people endlessly seeing racism in every fucking situation there is.

Some people will NEVER be happy. Some claim that we've had 8 million immigrants since the last Labour government. I don't know if that is true or not, nor do I care. But I tell you what. If we had double what we've actually had, people would still be complaining that this is a racist, selfish country not doing it's fair share etc.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Those who can afford to pay tax.



What about those who after paying the taxes, can't afford to live?

Surely that's a good indicator that they can't afford the taxes that was deducted before they received their wages?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Sometimes, I just feel like packing my bags and going to a country like Argentina or Japan



 You serious? It gets to you that much?

Try coming from here:

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/eritrea


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 4, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Amnesty on Syrian refugees:
> 
> 
> > Excluding Germany, the five largest countries in the EU (the UK, France, Italy, Spain and Poland) have pledged just 2,000 places between them constituting just 0.001per cent of their combined populations.
> ...


I'd just like to quote my own post from page 1. 2000 places _between them_.

I don't care whether their motivations are racist or to prevent economic migration or whatever, anyone who does that is a cunt.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> What about those who after paying the taxes, can't afford to live?
> 
> Surely that's a good indicator that they can't afford the taxes that was deducted before they received their wages?



You: Who should pay tax?
Me: Those who can afford it.
You: But what about those who can't afford it?
Me:


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'd just like to quote my own post from page 1. 2000 places _between them_.
> 
> I don't care whether their motivations are racist or to prevent economic migration or whatever, anyone who does that is a cunt.



With all due respect in the world. Please don't take this question the wrong way, bear with me like...

...do you care about all refugees or just the Syrian ones?

...I was going to close off my post here, but I'll get to the point. It isn't just Syrians that want to get into those 5 countries.

But anyway, it's Israel that should be taking in all of those refugees seeing as they were so eager topple the Syrian regime by providing any random twat in the country sporting combat fatigues with money and weapons.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You: Who should pay tax?
> Me: Those who can afford it.
> You: But what about those who can't afford it?
> Me:



My point being that millions who can't afford to pay tax, still have to pay it if they are in a regular job.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Jesus titting Christ


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Jesus titting Christ



He was a refugee buried in Japan. No, strike that. Economic migrant. The fucker passed many a safe country on the way!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> My point being that millions who can't afford to pay tax, still have to pay it if they are in a regular job.



Which is why we need a more steeply progressive tax system. We all agree on this.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Some people will NEVER be happy. Some claim that we've had 8 million immigrants since the last Labour government. I don't know if that is true or not, nor do I care. But I tell you what. If we had double what we've actually had, people would still be complaining that this is a racist, selfish country not doing it's fair share etc.


8 million since the start of the last labour gov in 97 sounds about right, BUT that's total immigration, not net immigration. Ie it'd take no account of all those who've left the UK within that period, which will also include a lot of the people who came in, and many of thsoe people will have been counted coming in to the UK several times.

Total net immigration will be more like 3.2 million in that 17 year period


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> With all due respect in the world. Please don't take this question the wrong way, bear with me like...
> 
> ...do you care about all refugees or just the Syrian ones?
> 
> ...


"It isn't just Syrians that want to get into those 5 countries" - and? (Oh I think I know where you're going with this but you should say it.)


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> He was a refugee buried in Japan. No, strike that. Economic migrant. The fucker passed many a safe country on the way!


Wot?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)




----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Which is why we need a more steeply progressive tax system. We all agree on this.



No we don't. If we nationalised the banks, put the printing of money under government control and away from private banking then the government could actually make so much money, we wouldn't need to tax many people for anything.

But the private bankers won't like that - they'll use whatever means at their disposal to destabalize the country.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Wot?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5326614.stm


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5326614.stm


And you use this 'information'  to claim that Syrian refugees are economic migrants?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> And you use this 'information'  to claim that Syrian refugees are economic migrants?



Nooooo. Please!!! What kind of a cunt do you take me for? :-D


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Nooooo. Please!!! What kind of a cunt do you take me for? :-D


A massive and abject one


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "It isn't just Syrians that want to get into those 5 countries" - and? (Oh I think I know where you're going with this but you should say it.)



I did!


----------



## The Boy (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Nooooo. Please!!! What kind of a cunt do you take me for? :-D


The worst fucking kind.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> 8 million since the start of the last labour gov in 97 sounds about right, BUT that's total immigration, not net immigration. Ie it'd take no account of all those who've left the UK within that period, which will also include a lot of the people who came in, and many of thsoe people will have been counted coming in to the UK several times.
> 
> Total net immigration will be more like 3.2 million in that 17 year period



You'll love UKIP then...all they care about is net migration. Anyway....as I said, I don't are about the 8 million figure so much as I care about the quality of life of working class folk already here in this country.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

Anyway, this was if anything a baffling end to the thread.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

The Boy said:


> The worst fucking kind.



Now now. He's a big boy. He might be a bit timid but I'm sure he can tell me quite honestly what he thinks of me.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> You'll love UKIP then...all they care about is net migration. Anyway....as I said, I don't are about the 8 million figure so much as I care about the quality of life of working class folk already here in this country.


Why just this country? Don't you care about the rest?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Now now. He's a big boy. He might be a bit timid but I'm sure he can tell me quite honestly what he thinks of me.


I already have. Sling your hook.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Why just this country? Don't you care about the rest?



Because this country can't even help itself. It's going backwards not forwards. 

It would be delusional arrogance to think that our own country can help out the rest of the world and solve the worlds problems.

Many of our elderly are dying undignified deaths in the cold. When I have the means to help anyone, I'll help them.

I maintain, it's plain wrong, for a pack of millionaire tax dodging pack of jackels in Westminister to tax the poor to borrow from banks to give away money on non-domestic causes, when most of the money doesn't even benefit the target demographic.

I don't want my country poking it's nose into the business of other counties, including wars etc. If every country did that, we would only have a fraction of the refugess and we'd all be a lot happier.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Why just this country? Don't you care about the rest?



Why just this planet? Don't you care about the rest?


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Because this country can't even help itself. It's going backwards not forwards.
> 
> It would be delusional arrogance to think that our own country can help out the rest of the world and solve the worlds problems.
> 
> ...


The flip side being that 

1 - The rest of Europe would have been under nazi military rule for the last 70 years or so if we'd chosen to look away and not get involved.

2 - We'd have been under nazi rule ourselves if the large part of the world that formed the rest of the empire hadn't decided to join us in that fight.

Fucking disgraceful to turn our backs on the rest of the world, many of whom who chose britain do so for historic reasons, just because you and the government misunderstand economics and think the UK is broke.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Fight the government policies in the UK that are causing abject misery to millions by all means, but not by blaming immigrants, or fighting over the scraps of money they costing UK government funding (actually most research concludes that immigration is a net financial benefit to the UK and UK government coffers).


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2015)

For fucks sake Spirit, your interests are not threatened by asylum seekers. Your interests are _actively damaged now_ by the policies of successive governments to de-fund public services which you and me benefit from. You're ignoring the real culprits and blaming those who are even less fortunate than yourself. You're blaming the victims of this system at the behest of those in powerful positions.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> The flip side being that
> 
> 1 - The rest of Europe would have been under nazi military rule for the last 70 years or so if we'd chosen to look away and not get involved.
> 
> ...



*cough* WW1 *cough*


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> Fight the government policies in the UK that are causing abject misery to millions by all means, but not by blaming immigrants, or fighting over the scraps of money they costing UK government funding (actually most research concludes that immigration is a net financial benefit to the UK and UK government coffers).



How are they immigrants if they don't get into the UK?


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> *cough* WW1 *cough*


what?


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> How are they immigrants if they don't get into the UK?


I was assuming you also had a problem with those who made it into the UK.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> what?



If WW1 didn't happen, then Hitler would not have risen to power. 

Anyone who was against the Iraq war, knew Saddam Hussein was a cunt, but had we not gotten into that, then IS / ISIS would probably not exist today.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> If WW1 didn't happen, then Hitler would not have risen to power.
> 
> Anyone who was against the Iraq war, knew Saddam Hussein was a cunt, but had we not gotten into that, then IS / ISIS would probably not exist today.


Well, ok I suppose there is that with WW1.

And yes you'll find the vast majority on this board were firmly against the war in Iraq at the time, and since.

But that war happened, as has the aftermath, and those who're trying to escape from it (and similar situations) deserve our assistance as part of an international undertaking to assist refugees fleeing such situations.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> For fucks sake Spirit, your interests are not threatened by asylum seekers. Your interests are _actively damaged now_ by the policies of successive governments to de-fund public services which you and me benefit from. You're ignoring the real culprits and blaming those who are even less fortunate than yourself. You're blaming the victims of this system at the behest of those in powerful positions.



I'm not ignoring the real culprits. I've posted a number of times on this thread who I blame. 

It's simplistic to argue that denying someone a visa to this country is somehow blaming them for the situation that they are in.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> Well, ok I suppose there is that with WW1.
> 
> And yes you'll find the vast majority on this board were firmly against the war in Iraq at the time, and since.
> 
> But that war happened, as has the aftermath, and those who're trying to escape from it (and similar situations) deserve our assistance as part of an international undertaking to assist refugees fleeing such situations.



Who is "our" ?

Why can't the people who benefited from the Iraqi war put the refugees up? They might as fucking well because they are the biggest benefactors from those people coming here in the first place.

Turn Buck Palace into a refugee centre and leave normal folk out of it to live their lives.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Who is "our" ?
> 
> Why can't the people who benefited from the Iraqi war put the refugees up? They might as fucking well because they are the biggest benefactors from those people coming here in the first place.
> 
> Turn Buck Palace into a refugee centre and leave normal folk out of it to live their lives.


"We" benefited. We have a duty.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 4, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> "We" benefited. We have a duty.



No "We" absolutely did not.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 4, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Who is "our" ?
> 
> Why can't the people who benefited from the Iraqi war put the refugees up? They might as fucking well because they are the biggest benefactors from those people coming here in the first place.
> 
> Turn Buck Palace into a refugee centre and leave normal folk out of it to live their lives.


well ok yes come the revolution etc

No problem at all with the idea of requisitioning all the 2nd homes and empty homes in the country.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

|Spirit of Slade said:
			
		

> So they would have come through multiple countries, many of which they could have claimed asylum at.



Bullshit. They could just have easily come on a boat from Lebanon or Turkey (both countries that are already brimful of Syrian refugees), so "would" is a value judgement on your part, based on your own preconceptions about refugees.



> Therefore, they are asylum seekers at the first country, but cease to be so at the second, in which they would be economic migrants if they get anywhere near the UK.



Depending on whether your initial bollocks is accurate in the first place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> I'm white. I keep getting followed around by a middle eastern security guard every time I visit a shop.
> 
> Just coincidence, I expect.



It's probably more to do with you probably radiating an aura of "I'm an untrustworthy cunt", to be fair.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bullshit. They could just have easily come on a boat from Lebanon or Turkey (both countries that are already brimful of Syrian refugees), so "would" is a value judgement on your part, based on your own preconceptions about refugees.
> 
> 
> Depending on whether your initial bollocks is accurate in the first place.



Lebanon you might be able to argue isn't safe. Turkey is a safe country.

So let's talk about Syrians on a boat from Lebanon. On a boat to where? If you are talking about the UK, we aren't talking about the refugees in the UK, we are talking about Calais in France, remember!


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's probably more to do with you probably radiating an aura of "I'm an untrustworthy cunt", to be fair.



Your post says more about you than me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> That's human nature isn't it?
> 
> We're never interested in what unites us...it's that 1% that we disagree on that we get badly distracted by.



There's no such thing as "human nature", just a load of naturalised assumptions that vary from person to person, and that the powerful use to justify their actions.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Your post says more about you than me.




Deeply similar in wording to other posts we've had  on here


----------



## hot air baboon (Jan 5, 2015)

*Syrians entering Lebanon face new restrictions*

5 January 2015 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30657003


The figures are astonishing. There are some 1.1 million officially registered Syrian refugees in Lebanon, perhaps another half a million Syrians who are not registered.

So at least one in five people living in this tiny, fragile country is a Syrian. It's as if 15 million refugees arrived in Britain.

In Lebanon, rents are up, wages are down, and refugee families are living 10 or 15 people to a room, or in makeshift camps in the mud and snow.

Resentment against Syrians is increasing. Some towns and villages have imposed curfews on the new arrivals, enforced by vigilante groups. Above all, many Lebanese fear the country's religious and sectarian balance is being altered in a way that will eventually trigger a renewed civil war here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Your post says more about you than me.



If you say so.
The difference between us is that I make no bones about being a cunt, whereas you try to dress up your prejudice as economic rationality.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 5, 2015)

William of Walworth said:


> Deeply similar in wording to other posts we've had  on here


c'mon, out with it william!


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 5, 2015)

ddraig : I can't actually guess right now as it goes, but all the same I'd be a tad _surprised_ if S of S hadn't also been somebody else on here prior to this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> You're the one who wants to stop foreign aid and close the borders. The mark of a fearful racist who doesn't want to help anyone but their own.



The hilarious thing being that our international aid budget _per annum_ brings in a net profit in trade, most often in the engineering and civil engineering sectors. This isn't difficult stuff to find out, if you're prepared to scrutinise investment cross-referenced to export credit guarantees from nation-states given international aid. I'm pretty sure Paul Foot wrote a decent "exposé" on this in the early noughties, when Iain Dunked-in Shit as leader of the Tory Party was having a whine about aid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> We have loads of money. We're one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We also have the privilege of a considerable amount of freedom. We have the ability and duty to look after those whose countries are fucked up, as a consequence of our own wealth and freedoms.



Yup.
What we don't have is an equitable and progressive taxation system, or a political class with the will to instigate taxation policies outside of the ambit of neoliberal economics, so we're left with the cheese-paring of "austerity", which demands that ordinary people pay off the debts incurred by the political class and their capitalist friends - capitalist friends who've been given some of the most pro-business tax policies this side of Brown 2002 by the coalition.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

eatmorecheese said:


> SpookyFrank thanks very much for your insights and the work you are doing, bearing witness to some brutal realities.
> 
> Spirit Of Slade the UK working class share the same enemies facing migrants at Calais. The only difference, on a _comparative_ basis, is that its easier to disregard the outsider, the other, to deny more of their basic rights in a systemic, institutional way. These are _people_, not just collateral of the global neoliberal set-up or statistics of displacement from war zones.



The startlingly-horrible truth being that some economists who don't rely on capitalist institutions for their living have been saying for decades that the UK and most of Northern Europe (and the US of A too) face a demographic time-bomb whereby immigration is *necessary* in order to pay for an ageing "native" population. We're not just talking skilled/professional immigrants, here, we're talking artisans and manual workers too, and this is irrespective of achieving full employment of the "native" population. The down-force on the argument, that causes the most friction between "native" and immigrant, being that immigrant labour is easier to exploit, and that this forces down pay and conditions for natives in such a way that taking employment sometimes doesn't pay.
Railing against immigrants and immigration does capitalism's job for it, in terms of suppression of pay and conditions. It just feeds the beast.



> We ain't broke, we're unequal. On both sides of the Channel. Stop mining this barren seam.



He can't help it. It's the logical end-point of his poorly-constructed arguments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Jesus titting Christ



This is definitely more of a "Jesus arsefucking Christ" situation, in my opinion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> No we don't. If we nationalised the banks, put the printing of money under government control and away from private banking then the government could actually make so much money, we wouldn't need to tax many people for anything.
> 
> But the private bankers won't like that - they'll use whatever means at their disposal to destabalize the country.



You don't understand basic economics. You can't "make" money. Germany found that out big-time in the 1920s and 1930s. If you "make money", you inflate the value and price of goods, and devalue the purchasing power of each unit of currency.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> If WW1 didn't happen, then Hitler would not have risen to power.



So, economically-ignorant, *and *historically-ignorant.
Given Bismarckian political rhetoric and policy, there would always have been a conflict involving Germany, the Habsburg Empire, the Russian empire, the British empire and France.
Given the sheer volume of _Volkisch_ nationalist parties and individuals in Germany from Bismarck-onward, then a  Germany defeated in that conflict, and a Germany which had democracy imposed on it, would have produced something akin to Hitler's NSDAP anyway. The only thing that might have differed with Hitler out of the equation, would have been whether the Slavs in the Greater Reich (i.e. the ethnic German territories in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Poland etc) were targeted, rather than the Jews. How do we know this? Because of the composition of so many of the _Volkisch_ nationalist parties, which were top-heavy with anti-Slav ethnic Germans.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Lebanon you might be able to argue isn't safe. Turkey is a safe country.



Yes, it's very safe for minority-sect Muslims and relict Christians to take safe haven in Turkey, or for Kurds of any faith. 



> So let's talk about Syrians on a boat from Lebanon. On a boat to where? If you are talking about the UK, we aren't talking about the refugees in the UK, we are talking about Calais in France, remember!



And you constructed your Calais narrative around a premise to do with aeroplanes and "first safe countries".


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You don't understand basic economics. You can't "make" money. Germany found that out big-time in the 1920s and 1930s. If you "make money", you inflate the value and price of goods, and devalue the purchasing power of each unit of currency.



That's if too much money is printed, therefore taking away it's value.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, it's very safe for minority-sect Muslims and relict Christians to take safe haven in Turkey, or for Kurds of any faith.
> 
> 
> 
> And you constructed your Calais narrative around a premise to do with aeroplanes and "first safe countries".



Turkey is supposed to be secular, however it if it how you describe it, then I'm sure you'll run a tireless campaign to exclude them from the EU.

Anyway....none of this detracts from my point that France itself is a safe country as is may other countries in Europe.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The startlingly-horrible truth being that some economists who don't rely on capitalist institutions for their living have been saying for decades that the UK and most of Northern Europe (and the US of A too) face a demographic time-bomb whereby immigration is *necessary* in order to pay for an ageing "native" population. We're not just talking skilled/professional immigrants, here, we're talking artisans and manual workers too, and this is irrespective of achieving full employment of the "native" population. The down-force on the argument, that causes the most friction between "native" and immigrant, being that immigrant labour is easier to exploit, and that this forces down pay and conditions for natives in such a way that taking employment sometimes doesn't pay.
> Railing against immigrants and immigration does capitalism's job for it, in terms of suppression of pay and conditions. It just feeds the beast.
> 
> He can't help it. It's the logical end-point of his poorly-constructed arguments.



Who pays for the aging immigrants pensions? More immigrants? If immigrants aren't in their countries, who is paying for the pensions in Poland for example?

Sounds to me that you have got your priorities wrong.

Cancel trident. Cancel foreign aid. Cancel the expensive wars. Pull of out the expensive EU and close the borders.

Put more money into the state pension pots. Encourage individuals to put more into private pensions.

And then when it's all sorted, invade Argentina.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 5, 2015)

who is paying for the english pensioners in the Med?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 5, 2015)

Turkey hasn't been secular for a while now. Politically. Socially, it hasn't been secular for even longer. Centuries longer.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ddraig said:


> who is paying for the english pensioners in the Med?



Why don't you ask them? 

They'll either reply "I've paid into the system all my life...so...." or they'll say it's a private pension job.

Besides, most of them would have been in employment all of their lives paying into the British system. While I'd rather they stayed in the UK supporting the UK economy, rather than Spain's.

Either way, immigrants or YOUNGER people paying for pensions of the older, clearly isn't the answer...it's like trying to fill a bath without a plug in the plug hole.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 5, 2015)

good god! you really don't know how it works do you


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 5, 2015)

ddraig said:


> good god! you really don't know how it works do you



They've retired ddraig. It doesn't matter where they reside, their pensions would still need paying if they were residing in the UK.


----------



## bemused (Jan 5, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Cancel trident. Cancel foreign aid. Cancel the expensive wars.



You forgot Christmas.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> We're not just talking skilled/professional immigrants, here, we're talking artisans...



Especially since the nation's marketing departments decided that you have to be an artisan to make a cup of coffee or a cheese toastie.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 8, 2015)

More accounts of police violence against migrants here:

https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/police-violence/

In recent days I have heard disturbing reports of a gang-related conflict spilling over into the jungles, with a gang of men using metal bars to attack tents with sleeping people inside. These attacks were targetted at a specific ethnic group, seemingly in revenge for the actions of one of the gangs of people traffickers. 

Again, these gangs only exist because of UK/French/EU border control policies. Closing borders to certain people doesn't prevent them from ultimately reaching the UK, it just puts them at far greater risk and leaves their fate in the hands of gangsters and police who seem determined to continually outdo each other with their cruelty and inhumanity. If you're a UK taxpayer then you are funding both the gangsters with uniforms and those without.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> More accounts of police violence against migrants here:
> 
> https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/police-violence/
> 
> ...



Outragous isn't it, gangsters operating in Calais?...surely there's loads of decent working class neighbourhoods in the UK they could turn into crime ridden no go areas overnight?


----------



## jusali (Jan 9, 2015)

Reminds me of the movie: Children of men

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2006/sep/22/juliannemoore.thriller



> Britain's relative calm and prosperity have attracted waves of illegal immigrants; it is the responsibility of the UK's Homeland Security department to pen them into vast mesh-fenced internment camps, the biggest of which is a gigantic caged shanty-town in Bexhill - a very English Guantanamo-on-Sea.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Outragous isn't it, gangsters operating in Calais?...surely there's loads of decent working class neighbourhoods in the UK they could turn into crime ridden no go areas overnight?


Where are these 'no go' areas?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> Where are these 'no go' areas?



Quite. They don't actually exist unless you're a copper or a journo.
Brixton was long touted as a "no-go" area in general, with parts of it supposedly too dangerous for decent folk after dark, same with parts of Peckham, same with the sprawling Winstanley estate at Clapham Junction, and yet in all the many nights I spent in those three locations, I was never attacked by gangs of sadistic and vicious immigrants, and I'm about as archetypally "white"-looking as you can get - pale skin, blue eyes, mousy hair.  I've had more aggro at night in "white" areas like Plumstead and Eltham than I've ever had in any so-called "no-go area".


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Outragous isn't it, gangsters operating in Calais?...surely there's loads of decent working class neighbourhoods in the UK they could turn into crime ridden no go areas overnight?


Fuck off again.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Jan 10, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Fuck off again.



My point is, you can't have open borders to protect the good, if the bad come in with them.

Pointing out awfully nice people being victimised by bad, then touting open borders as a solution, is plain daft if all it does is move the problem of bad people exploiting good, from France to the UK.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 11, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> My point is, you can't have open borders to protect the good, if the bad come in with them.



Lucky there's no bad people here already isn't it?


----------



## 8ball (Jan 11, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lucky there's no bad people here already isn't it?



Well, _you_ say lucky.

I think there's probably something more sinister going on...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lucky there's no bad people here already isn't it?



Slade's just worried that foreign crims will impinge on his own *illicit activities.

*Although I doubt many foreign crims are into stealing the vicar's wife's knickers and sniffing her bike saddle, so he doesn't really have too many worries on that score.


----------



## sovereignb (Jan 21, 2015)

The subject that will continue to divide the people...

After my first post last year on a similar topic, i'm reserved about giving my opinion on this matter, though i can understand the many sides of the spectrum. However, as someone whose job involves working with unaccompanied minors claiming asylum, if anyone wants to ask anything, i can at least give my view on things from what i see.


----------



## gosub (Jan 31, 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/strikemagyo?fref=nf

How to help your fellow human beings at the Calais migrant camps... at the Daily Mail's expense! This is probably the best thing you could do this weekend/ever:

1. Book a £1 ferry ticket with P&O by the 1st of February, using code DAILYMAIL4, to take advantage of the Daily Mail’s humanitarian largesse.

2. Pack up a backpack or load up a car with tents, blankets, (men’s) shoes, winter jackets and a couple of sets of dominoes. If you have none of these things, take a warm hug and a friendly smile.

3. Visit the migrant camp at Impasse des Salines or the “Jungle” along Rue des Garennes. If you want to support activists in Calais, contact Calais Migrant Solidarity on +33 75 34 75 159.

4. Enjoy your free bottle of wine, courtesy of our sponsor, The Daily Mail!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/article-288…/Sail-France-1.html

‪#‎ironyftw‬


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2015)

thats fuckin brilliant. may have to do it


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2015)

fuck it, will do it this week.will post a wanted thread in recycle for contributions/ will pickup in SE london


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2015)

not-bono-ever said:


> fuck it, will do it this week.will post a wanted thread in recycle for contributions/ will pickup in SE london



Well done you. PM me if you want any details about good places to take stuff to.

Tents, sleeping bags, warm clothes and men's shoes are the most important things. Don't bring any jigsaw puzzles, we got donated loads just before christmas and we have no idea what anyone is supposed to do with them. It's quite sweet that people think the migrants have dining room tables they can sit round of a sunday afternoon to do jigsaw puzzles but sadly life in the jungles is a bit more basic than that.


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2015)

let me trawl around the local charity shops to see if they owt that isnt saleable condition, but serviceable and functional they would normally send off to a recycler

will PM when I have sorted out the tickets/schedule and posted in the recycle forum for contribs


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2015)

I don't recommend just rocking up at the jungles with a van/car full of goodies tbh. You might get slightly mobbed, which can be an unpleasant experience. I would at least give the CMS folk a call and ask their advice when you get there, they might offer to store and distribute stuff themselves if the garage isn't too full and people aren't too busy doing other stuff.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2015)

yup. will PM as soon as I can sort out things and will speak to the CMS


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2015)

an update- i trawled the charity shops of the hood today and plead the case for non sellable stuff I would be willing to pick up - the verdixt wasnt good- as i knew, they have contracts with recycling firms that pay them cash for their unwanted gear and they were cautious. the biggest one however did agree to speak to the area manager and call me back on monday. lets see how it goes


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2015)

as an aside, the chance to get Onket his  allocation of shit wine that the Mrs gave to the school raffle is another reason for me to do this


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 6, 2015)

further update

the local charidee shops didnt get back to me, so I went a knocking again- they are not interested- one in particular was a bit sneery about the issues- but he is a cunt anyway.

missed the DM voucher, but will do a day retirn anyway


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> The subject that will continue to divide the people...
> 
> After my first post last year on a similar topic, i'm reserved about giving my opinion on this matter, though i can understand the many sides of the spectrum. However, as someone whose job involves working with unaccompanied minors claiming asylum, if anyone wants to ask anything, i can at least give my view on things from what i see.



One thing i will say in this thread (and i know it wont go down well), is that if anyone thinks all asylum claims are genuine, you are very much mistaken.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2015)

best stop offering asylum all together then.


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## phildwyer (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> One thing i will say in this thread (and i know it wont go down well), is that if anyone thinks all asylum claims are genuine, you are very much mistaken.



I don't know about that.  You wouldn't camp out in Calais for months on end unless you were pretty desperate.  You might say they're "economic" refugees rather than "political," but I'm not sure that distinction makes much sense.


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## Greebo (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> One thing i will say in this thread (and i know it wont go down well), is that if anyone thinks all asylum claims are genuine, you are very much mistaken.


Okay then, let's set aside the entire issue of every country being obliged by the UN to grant political asylum to anyone who claims it.

Instead, think what it would take to make you willing to leave where you are now, with just the clothes on your back and the things you could carry in a small bag.  No problem?  Leave most of your money behind (or spend the lot of it on the journey) too, and your friends and family.  This could be the last time you ever see them, they probably won't be able to visit you either, at least for a few years and maybe never.

Even if your life wasn't in danger, and you did this purely in the hope of finding work which paid well enough to to support yourself and send something home, how desperate would you be before doing this began to look like a good idea?


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## purenarcotic (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> One thing i will say in this thread (and i know it wont go down well), is that if anyone thinks all asylum claims are genuine, you are very much mistaken.



And? Your point being?


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> One thing i will say in this thread (and i know it wont go down well), is that if anyone thinks all asylum claims are genuine, you are very much mistaken.



Define 'genuine'. Do you mean genuinely in need of help according to the arbitary criteria invented by the home office to try and reduce to a bare minimum the number of people able to successfully claim asylum, or do you mean deserving of help in the way that all humans need and deserve help from others at some point in their lives?

Plenty of British-born people don't deserve the skin they stand in, never mind access to public services. When we start throwing those people out and replacing them with nice people from Sudan then maybe we can talk about who is deserving and who isn't, until then it's a gruesome double standard.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2015)

Sovereignb works for the immigration service. Probably helps to send em back


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> One thing i will say in this thread (and i know it wont go down well), is that if anyone thinks all asylum claims are genuine, you are very much mistaken.



Of course they're not all genuine!
That doesn't excuse the pisspoor job the wankers at the UK Border Agency/UK Immigration & Visas do, the high rate of their (supposedly-informed) decisions overturned on appeal, or the fact that the service is still chock-full of institutional racism.


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## sovereignb (Feb 7, 2015)

No but the system needs to be ALOT tighter, and it can be. If you trust the systems good enough to grant asylum to some, then surely it needs to deal appropriately with the ones refused, no? Many end up working illegally, turning to crime and living in hell holes (its unlikely they would be able to claim benefits). But it seems somewhat pointless having the system (which is increasingly bogged down by more applicants) if most end up staying anyway.
The Home Office have revolving door battle on their hands.

Bear in mind, as my previous post, i'm mainly talking about the "minors" I have engage with. Many are far from being minors (though they claim they are) and are placed in the care of Social Services. That way, they are entitled to financial and accommodation support, along those with minors already in the UK care system. Some do very well, settling into studies. Others are robbing within weeks (because YES that happens), in and out of prison for all matter of things. Some actually do have family and friends here, yet continue to use the support of social services. And organised crime is a VERY big thing from certain countries. Yet most have ultimately come "for a better life", as opposed to being in fear of their lives back home.

The UK is still ignorantly seen by many as the land paved with gold. Ultimately, is the UK supposed to absorb all the issues? Is it a question of, well we're are one of the richest countries, so we should?


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course they're not all genuine!
> That doesn't excuse the pisspoor job the wankers at the UK Border Agency/UK Immigration & Visas do, the high rate of their (supposedly-informed) decisions overturned on appeal, or the fact that the service is still chock-full of institutional racism.



But many ARE being granted asylum appeals too, and we are saying thats good. In fact, in my experience, after time, the majority do win. So the ones being refused, well it must be down rascist immigration officers?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> But many ARE being granted asylum appeals too, and we are saying thats good. In fact, in my experience, after time, the majority do win. So the ones being refused, well it must be down rascist immigration officers?



Please don't put words in my mouth,especially when you clearly don't understand the term "institutional racism" (hint: It isn't about personnel ).
As for bigging up people succeeding after appeal, wouldn't it be better, more efficient, to actually do the fucking job properly the first time round, so that so many appeals (costly and time-intensive as they are) weren't necessary in the first place?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Bear in mind, as my previous post, i'm mainly talking about the "minors" I have engage with. Many are far from being minors (though they claim they are) and are placed in the care of Social Services.



I recall doing some research a couple of years ago into the Home Office's methods of determining age. None of the methods were accurate, they all (bone length, fusion of skull sutures, genital development etc) had a +/- of about 3 years). There's been talk about dating of telomeres in DNA samples, but that's currently prohibitively expensive compared to getting a physician to say "he/she's over 18".


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## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

This is a bit random and irrelevant but I don't understand why the UK is allegedy regarded as so wonderful rather than, say, France. Is it just the language thing? There must be something going on that makes migrants prefer to make the break for England rather than settling in France. Or indeed, Italy, where they often land. We treat our immigrants so badly - can it really be better than others?


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Please don't put words in my mouth,especially when you clearly don't understand the term "institutional racism" (hint: It isn't about personnel ).
> As for bigging up people succeeding after appeal, wouldn't it be better, more efficient, to actually do the fucking job properly the first time round, so that so many appeals (costly and time-intensive as they are) weren't necessary in the first place?



Lets not get so defensive. I'm more than aware of what institutional racism is. And that same racism is there when people are given leave to remain on their first application.

From my experience, Home Office investigations of asylum claims are quite thorough. No applicant is going to just walk after being refused once.
They have the opportunity to appeal several times. The Home Office still maintain that it is safe for an applicant to go home. The eventual decision to give a few years leave to remain is usually given by the High Courts, mainly on the basis of family life or health grounds. They then start the process again when those years of leave to remain expire.



ViolentPanda said:


> I recall doing some research a couple of years ago into the Home Office's methods of determining age. None of the methods were accurate, they all (bone length, fusion of skull sutures, genital development etc) had a +/- of about 3 years). There's been talk about dating of telomeres in DNA samples, but that's currently prohibitively expensive compared to getting a physician to say "he/she's over 18".



Its ongoing problem. I think its very unfair for adults to be placed with children in homes & foster carers.


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## sovereignb (Feb 7, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> This is a bit random and irrelevant but I don't understand why the UK is allegedy regarded as so wonderful rather than, say, France. Is it just the language thing? There must be something going on that makes migrants prefer to make the break for England rather than settling in France. Or indeed, Italy, where they often land. We treat our immigrants so badly - can it really be better than others?



I think we treat are asylum seekers much better than France, Italy and Australia. However, alot is based on myth, like being able to "get a house" Most think there are better job opportunities and access to education.


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## phildwyer (Feb 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I recall doing some research



Here's some research I did about you: you're a coward who attacks people when you know they can't answer back.  What fun can you possibly derive from that?  It's despicable.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Here's some research I did about you: you're a coward who attacks people when you know they can't answer back.  What fun can you possibly derive from that?  It's despicable.


WTF was that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> WTF was that?



That's phil shitting up *this* thread because I made some points about him on a thread I *later* found he was barred from on pain of a banning. He now sees this as an indication of cowardice,despite the fact that I've willingly attacked the self-regarding idiot to his (computerised) face more times than I can recall.
Basically, he's a wanker. I would report the posts (yes, posts!) he's dropped over the boards calling me a coward, because it's classic "cross-thread beef", but I don't report posts,not even from twat-monkeys.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

What is his problem? I thought he was Mr Oxford Don and all.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's classic "cross-thread beef"



It's only "cross-thread beef" because I can't respond on the appropriate thread, which is why you shouldn't have brought your own beef to that particular picnic.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

John Agard:


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> It's only "cross-thread beef" because I can't respond on the appropriate thread, which is why you shouldn't have brought your own beef to that particular picnic.



I'll say it again, because you're a dolt. I wasn't aware of you being threatened with the banhammer until long after responding to those posts,and (as I've posted on the Lidl thread) I respond to threads the way I do,for a reason.Namely (to cite post #1035 of the aforementioned thread):



> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, just once, that you're not aware of the fact that I have deteriorating short-term memory (poor enough that it requires medical treatment), and that I respond to threads the way I do because it's the only way I can without losing track.
> Strangely, many other regular posters *are* aware of this, have been for a couple of years and act accordingly.
> Now stop shitting up threads with your whining, there's a good boy!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> What is his problem? I thought he was Mr Oxford Don and all.



No, Oxford *student*. Same _alma mater_ as Laurie Penny IIRC.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I respond to threads the way I do,for a reason.



I wasn't to know that was I?


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, Oxford *student*. Same _alma mater_ as Laurie Penny IIRC.


Oh fuck that. I was Oxford student too and have zero respect for anyone who claims it as anything special. Sad sad sad. Isn't he supposed to be a professor something somewhere? Anyway, why are we wasting time on him (sorry, I shouldn't have) when there are serious issues? What can we do to help these people in Calais, and will helping them alleviate the problem and hopefully provide a safety valve for people who are oppressed elsewhere in Europe? Or exacerbate it? We Brits have a serious responsibility here, and we shirk it - though I sometimes wonder if the French are good at facing up to their responsibility too. They have a huge inflow from North Africa, which they are not treating well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Oh fuck that. I was Oxford student too and have zero respect for anyone who claims it as anything special. Sad sad sad. Isn't he supposed to be a professor something somewhere? Anyway, why are we wasting time on him (sorry, I shouldn't have) when there are serious issues? What can we do to help these people in Calais, and will helping them alleviate the problem and hopefully provide a safety valve for people who are oppressed elsewhere in Europe? Or exacerbate it? We Brits have a serious responsibility here, and we shirk it - though I sometimes wonder if the French are good at facing up to their responsibility too. They have a huge inflow from North Africa, which they are not treating well.



I really despise French "elite" (i.e. the political and economic elite) attitudes to non-white foreigners, especially refugees, economic migrants and asylum-seekers. The British elite attitude is bad enough, what with incarceration, but there's a *mild* official presumption of a "duty of care", whereas in France it appears to be NGOs, activists and community volunteers taking up *all* the slack.
Mind you, probably the biggest shit-log in the whole immigration log-pile is the ridiculous "first safe country" policy. By what criteria? Is Greece "safe" for sub-Saharan African blacks? Not judging by the stats on racially-motivated attacks. Is France "safe" for French-speaking North Africans? Seems like the coppers there, like ours, operate on principles derived from the idea that the darker your skin, the more innately-guilty of crime you must be.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 7, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> No but the system needs to be ALOT tighter, and it can be. If you trust the systems good enough to grant asylum to some, then surely it needs to deal appropriately with the ones refused, no? Many end up working illegally, turning to crime and living in hell holes (its unlikely they would be able to claim benefits). But it seems somewhat pointless having the system (which is increasingly bogged down by more applicants) if most end up staying anyway.



Well then if it's pointless having the system, then why have the system? These people are only 'working illegally' because of a bunch of silly laws which benefit nobody but the bastards who are getting rich by paying poverty wages to people with no other option. If some migrants turn to crime, that is also an inevitable consequence of laws which prevent them from making an honest living.

You can call it 'working illegally' but that's just a cop out. People who are working illegally are doing nothing immoral or harmful, they're just doing what everyone else does to get by. The only difference is that they're doing it while being _the wrong sort of person. _

The concept of an illegal immigrant is a pretty new one on the grand scheme of things. It is an arbitrary, manufactured category of person. It is heavy with implication and innuendo but has little basis in logic. You don't have to read too many newspapers to see that that a handful of super-wealthy immigrants from Russia or Qatar, or a handful of British people 'domiciled' in foreign lands for tax purposes for that matter, can do more damage to society than however many thousands of ordinary people doing ordinary jobs for sub-ordinary wages possibly could. And yet who is it that we call illegal? The Saudi prince who got his money from a regime that cuts off the heads of dissidents, or the Iraqi dish-washer (former teacher) whose home town was destroyed by Saudi-funded jihadis? I know who I would rather welcome into this country, what about you?


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## sovereignb (Feb 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> best stop offering asylum all together then.





SpookyFrank said:


> Well then if it's pointless having the system, then why have the system? These people are only 'working illegally' because of a bunch of silly laws which benefit nobody but the bastards who are getting rich by paying poverty wages to people with no other option. If some migrants turn to crime, that is also an inevitable consequence of laws which prevent them from making an honest living.
> 
> You can call it 'working illegally' but that's just a cop out. People who are working illegally are doing nothing immoral or harmful, they're just doing what everyone else does to get by. The only difference is that they're doing it while being _the wrong sort of person. _



I agree with this. So id rather there be a system that reflected that and supported those who genuinely want to work /study in the UK
Not  the  current "im fake fleeing persecution in my country so im coming here to do whatever I want" system. Because that can bring out the dregs of all societies. The crime aspect is not just those who have been refused and aren't able to work. I mentioned in my previous post about some being brought over to be involved in organised crime. Another example, i know of a "young" man who has been here for 4 years, has been to prison 2 times for robbery and continues yet to receive the financial and accommodation support of a local authority. He is far from destitute, yet continues to be involved in offending and only started his "asylum" claim last year.I'm sure to many of you these sound like Daily Mail scaremonger stories, but i'm telling you from my experience, these are not one-offs and there is alot more to it.

So again, is UK society supposed to absorb this? Or do you see  matters such as organised crime small issues in the big scheme of things? Not once have I said that someone genuinely fleeing persecution (or the example of the Iraqi teacher you gave) shouldn't be allowed here.

The Powers that be love things the way they are - more money from the blackmarket/illegal workers as well divide and conquer among the people.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 8, 2015)

I don't know why you quoted me you miserable shit but you have the common humanity of a cool original flavoured dorito.

it used to be a matter of pride that we took in the people hounded by torture and inhumanity and risk of immediate death. When did the likes of you get in charge. What happened. We are suposed to be england, we'll take any old bod. Better that than the bod get fingernails pulled out in a sunless cell for organising.

what a cunt you are SB. I've just realised that your username is soveriegnb, as in sovereign borders. On a tiny island with a vast history of population flux, in and out. Go fuck yourself.


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## eatmorecheese (Feb 8, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> I agree with this. So id rather there be a system that reflected that and supported those who genuinely want to work /study in the UK
> Not  the  current "im fake fleeing persecution in my country so im coming here to do whatever I want" system. Because that can bring out the dregs of all societies.



The dregs of society are in charge. You don't have a scooby. Read SpookyFrank 's post again.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 8, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> The Powers that be love things the way they are - more money from the blackmarket/illegal workers as well divide and conquer among the people.



I'm confused. You say things like what I've quoted above, whilst at the same time cheerleading for the same border controls you're condemning. Our current system of controlling immigration is not fit for purpose on any level you care to name, so the solution to that is an even more extreme version of the same thing? That's utter madness. 

As for crime, you talk about people coming to the UK and committing crimes. Like a lot of people in this sort of debate, you forget to mention the fact that plenty of people born in the UK also commit crimes. Some of them even go to foreign countries and commit crimes. Some British people sell arms to dictators, others start illegal wars that create hundreds of thousands of refugees. The behaviour of those people is not an excuse to persecute all British people, and nor is the fact that some immigrants commit crimes an excuse not to treat immigrants with respect and decency. 

You say you have no problem with people who are genuinely fleeing persecution being given asylum in the UK. In Calais I met an Afghan man who had worked as a translator for British and US forces. Because of his work, it was no longer safe for him in Afghanistan. His situation is far from unique. Maybe if he applied for asylum in the UK he would be successful, provided he had plenty of documentary evidence, but he couldn't even travel to the UK to make his claim. As I'm sure you know, if your feet aren't on British soil you cannot claim asylum in the UK. It's meaningless to say that we support anyone who has a genuine claim for asylum when we don't even provide those people with a safe, legal means of getting here in the first place.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 8, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I recall doing some research a couple of years ago into the Home Office's methods of determining age. None of the methods were accurate, they all (bone length, fusion of skull sutures, genital development etc) had a +/- of about 3 years). There's been talk about dating of telomeres in DNA samples, but that's currently prohibitively expensive compared to getting a physician to say "he/she's over 18".



All that measuring of bones and stuff seems so backward I didn't believe it when I was first told about it.

But I suppose, until we find some way to communicate with people and simply ask them how old they are, it will just have to do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> All that measuring of bones and stuff seems so backward I didn't believe it when I was first told about it.



It's so amazingly crude, as well as being environmentally-dependent, that it's not really worth bothering with. Even regarding puberty, malnutrition can either advance or retard development. 



> But I suppose, until we find some way to communicate with people and simply ask them how old they are, it will just have to do.



Unfortunately, as we both know, there isn't the degree of trust on the part of the Home Office (or rather, on the part of the ministers) to take the word of refugees.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> I agree with this. So id rather there be a system that reflected that and supported those who genuinely want to work /study in the UK.



AKA "immigrants with money".



> Not  the  current "im fake fleeing persecution in my country so im coming here to do whatever I want" system. Because that can bring out the dregs of all societies.



because, of course, we don't already have "dregs of society" here, governing us, patrolling our streets, running financial institutions...



> The crime aspect is not just those who have been refused and aren't able to work. I mentioned in my previous post about some being brought over to be involved in organised crime. Another example, i know of a "young" man who has been here for 4 years, has been to prison 2 times for robbery and continues yet to receive the financial and accommodation support of a local authority. He is far from destitute, yet continues to be involved in offending and only started his "asylum" claim last year.I'm sure to many of you these sound like Daily Mail scaremonger stories, but i'm telling you from my experience, these are not one-offs and there is alot more to it.



There's also a lot more *to* it, which most tribunals aren't equipped to take into account, unless they inconvenience themselves by hiring an "expert" to explain issues to them. Stuff like the psychological damage incurred from living in a war-zone, The retardation of ethical and intellectual development that trauma can cause, and a hundred other factors that the state can't be arsed to care about.



> So again, is UK society supposed to absorb this? Or do you see  matters such as organised crime small issues in the big scheme of things? Not once have I said that someone genuinely fleeing persecution (or the example of the Iraqi teacher you gave) shouldn't be allowed here.



What you're doing is setting up an arbitrary dividing line between "good" immigrants" and "bad" immigrants, with people like you deciding, based on a ridiculously-flawed official viewpoint, who's "good" and who's "bad".



> The Powers that be love things the way they are - more money from the blackmarket/illegal workers as well divide and conquer among the people.



The powers-that-be love whatever serves them best, which includes employing useful idiots like you.


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't know why you quoted me you miserable shit but you have the common humanity of a cool original flavoured dorito.
> 
> it used to be a matter of pride that we took in the people hounded by torture and inhumanity and risk of immediate death. When did the likes of you get in charge. What happened. We are suposed to be england, we'll take any old bod. Better that than the bod get fingernails pulled out in a sunless cell for organising.
> 
> what a cunt you are SB. I've just realised that your username is soveriegnb, as in sovereign borders. On a tiny island with a vast history of population flux, in and out. Go fuck yourself.



With all due respect you p***k, you dont know me or the origin of my username. I wont waste anymore time with you.


SpookyFrank said:


> All that measuring of bones and stuff seems so backward I didn't believe it when I was first told about it.
> 
> But I suppose, until we find some way to communicate with people and simply ask them how old they are, it will just have to do.



Do you believe claimants are not asked their age? Of course they are. The response to that question will determine how much support they get (as a "child" or an "adult").

Your the only one who seems capable of having a sensible discussion about the matter. I should have learnt from my post last year how very defensive people get, latching onto paragraphs instead the whole context. Im talking about a specific type/group of people in a particular situation (from my field of work and i am NOT an immigration officer, very far from it)

Of course i'm aware of the criminals already in the UK, which we struggle to deal with. I'm not saying persecute all asylum seekers based on the bad ones. I'm saying deal with them appropriately, like you would any criminal, including a British person doing criminal acts abroad. In my eyes, appropriately would not include granting asylum *(when they are not actually fleeing persecution)*. Again i can only speak from my angle of work, which would deal with people who have made it to the UK, so i cant comment much on those waiting at Calais like your example of the Aghani.Though  examples like that is where the work is really required to make the system fairer.

The system needs a complete overhaul. But its very clear the views of most in here so very much pointless trying to discuss it.


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## sovereignb (Feb 8, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> AKA "immigrants with money".
> 
> Thats your view, not mine.
> 
> ...


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 8, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> yes, so lets just welcome some more.



Why not?  They're young, work hard, pay taxes (even illegal immigrants pay taxes).  With our rapidly aging population, we need them.

Quite apart from the fact that cultural diversity is healthy in itself.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 8, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Do you believe claimants are not asked their age? Of course they are. The response to that question will determine how much support they get (as a "child" or an "adult").



So why all this 19th century quackery of measuring bones and so on?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 8, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> With all due respect you p***k, you dont know me or the origin of my username. I wont waste anymore time with you.


i think I ken ye well enough 


no idea why I went scottish there


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> i think I ken ye well enough
> 
> 
> no idea why I went scottish there



Cos you fancy giving him a Glasgow Kiss?


----------



## DownwardDog (Feb 8, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> So why all this 19th century quackery of measuring bones and so on?



Because (obviously) some of them lie about their age to get the enhanced level support available to minors.


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## Dogsauce (Feb 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I recall doing some research a couple of years ago into the Home Office's methods of determining age. None of the methods were accurate, they all (bone length, fusion of skull sutures, genital development etc) had a +/- of about 3 years). There's been talk about dating of telomeres in DNA samples, but that's currently prohibitively expensive compared to getting a physician to say "he/she's over 18".



A friend of mine used to work as a teaching assistant in a secure educational unit, which housed everyone from the archetypal persistent young offender to people that had done much more serious shit.  They had one guy from Nigeria who'd been caught at customs with a fuck load of drugs and possibly false documents.  This guy was educationally well ahead of his peers, and my mate was pretty sure he had a university degree, despite 'officially' being seventeen or something like that.  I think there's some advantage in the criminal justice system to being younger than you are.


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## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's phil shitting up *this* thread because I made some points about him on a thread I *later* found he was barred from on pain of a banning. He now sees this as an indication of cowardice,despite the fact that I've willingly attacked the self-regarding idiot to his (computerised) face more times than I can recall.
> Basically, he's a wanker. I would report the posts (yes, posts!) he's dropped over the boards calling me a coward, because it's classic "cross-thread beef", but I don't report posts,not even from twat-monkeys.



LOL. I'll have to remember to add that to my online dating profiles...

"_Middle aged, average looking twat-monkey, whose a film buff with a sense of humour, seeks a bubbly companion who loves the internet, but never-the-less despises World of Warcraft..._"


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## Greebo (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> <snip>"_Middle aged, average looking twat-monkey, who's a film buff with a sense of humour, seeks a bubbly companion who loves the internet but, nevertheless, despises World of Warcraft..._"


Corrected for you </pedant>


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> So why all this 19th century quackery of measuring bones and so on?



Most applicants will say they are under 18 to be entitled to the support as a child in need. They dont carry ID/proof with them, so its for authorities to determine through an assessment how true the response is. The bones measuring tactics rarely happen in my experience, unless authorities are convinced the "child" is older and the "child" continues to maintain they are so. Solicitors (supporting the applicant) or local authorities can request it.

It seems Dogsauce above has got another gist of it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> LOL. I'll have to remember to add that to my online dating profiles...
> 
> "_Middle aged, average looking twat-monkey, whose a film buff with a sense of humour, seeks a bubbly companion who loves the internet, but never-the-less despises World of Warcraft..._"



How do you despise World of Warcraft? If you don't like it, simply don't play it and it need never vex you again.

Getting really angry about things that don't actually affect you seems to be a running theme with you doesn't it?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> How do you despise World of Warcraft? If you don't like it, simply don't play it and it need never vex you again.
> 
> Getting really angry about things that don't actually affect you seems to be a running theme with you doesn't it?



And pretending to be able to actually read people's minds (badly) appears to be a running theme with you. 

XX {{SpookyFrank}}


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> And pretending to be able to actually read people's minds (badly) appears to be a running theme with you.



Nope, that'd be you doing that:



Spirit Of Slade said:


> Go and visit a building site and ask the natives + 2nd generation immigrants that work there, what they fear and it won't tally up with what you're mooting about.



Incidentally, if someone is a second generation immigrant that means they were born here, and so they are, strictly speaking, 'native'.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 9, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Most applicants will say they are under 18 to be entitled to the support as a child in need. They dont carry ID/proof with them, so its for authorities to determine through an assessment how true the response is. The bones measuring tactics rarely happen in my experience, unless authorities are convinced the "child" is older and the "child" continues to maintain they are so. Solicitors (supporting the applicant) or local authorities can request it.
> 
> It seems Dogsauce above has got another gist of it.


and what would you do if, heaven forfend, in the same situation?


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 9, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Why not?  They're young, work hard, pay taxes (even illegal immigrants pay taxes).  With our rapidly aging population, we need them.
> 
> Quite apart from the fact that cultural diversity is healthy in itself.



My response was supposed to quote the point people are making that we already have criminals born and bred in the UK. I dont see how importing more from other countries is remotely beneficial for anything. No one has to tell me about the benefits of cultural diversity. Most in this thread seem to believe that ALL asylum seekers/immigrants are honest, hardworking and contribute positively to society. I'm telling you, from my experience, not ALL are.

Hypothetically, if someone from the UK went to Pakistan, claiming they in fear of their life here, but ultimately went there to recruit young girls into exploitation, what do you think should happen?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> and what would you do if, heaven forfend, in the same situation?



...and you knew that even though you are genuinely fleeing for your life, there's still an excellent chance you'll not only get sent home from the UK but the people who are trying to kill you will get a nice phone call from HM government first to let them know you're coming. You also know your chances are slightly better if you're thought to be under eighteen. Would you still be on some moral high horse about it and refuse to bend the truth?

A friend of mine waited so long to get over the border at Calais that his eighteenth birthday came and went before he could reach the UK and claim asylum. If there had been a legitimate way for him to get here and make a claim he would have been entitled to support as a minor, but now he isn't. Is that fair?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Hypothetically, if someone from the UK went to Pakistan, claiming they in fear of their life here, but ultimately went there to recruit young girls into exploitation, what do you think should happen?



Why does there need to be different ways of dealing with criminals based on where those criminals come from? You seem to be suggesting that the immigration system should operate as some kind of pre-emptive proxy for the criminal justice system, stopping people coming here on the grounds that they might turn out to be criminals. Why not get the NHS to behave in the same way, and smother newborn babies at birth lest they too should grow up to be criminals?


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> and what would you do if, heaven forfend, in the same situation?



It still seems people are missing my point. Which situation? And, as i asked in a previous post, is the UK supposed to just give this support whether its genuinely entitled or not? Its one thing making the most out of that support, working hard,  doing the best that you can for yourself and contributing positvely to society. Its another thing to completely exploit it and do nothing but cause harm to the communities.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 9, 2015)

i know it is hard for you to empathise and it will never happen to you down to luck of where you were born.

in a situation where you would get more support from being younger and you were desperate for that support, would you bend the truth, claim you were younger to get that support?
pretty simple really


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why does there need to be different ways of dealing with criminals based on where those criminals come from? You seem to be suggesting that the immigration system should operate as some kind of pre-emptive proxy for the criminal justice system, *stopping people coming here on the grounds that they might turn out to be criminals*. Why not get the NHS to behave in the same way, and smother newborn babies at birth lest they too should grow up to be criminals?



Not stopping people coming here, but if it does turn out they are a part of something bigger (exploiting children say), then you believe such people should still be given the right to stay here? Serve their time in a UK prison and then be released back into the community, with all the issues that may entail (housing etc)

I dont for the life of me understand how someone can be supposedly fleeing persecution, only to shit in the country that gives them safe haven and the people of that country should just deal with it, along with the existing dregs we already have. Maybe we have a difference of opinion but thanks for being able to have a healthy discussion about it.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why does there need to be different ways of dealing with criminals based on where those criminals come from? You seem to be suggesting that the immigration system should operate as some kind of pre-emptive proxy for the criminal justice system, stopping people coming here on the grounds that they might turn out to be criminals. Why not get the NHS to behave in the same way, and smother newborn babies at birth lest they too should grow up to be criminals?



Comparing stricter immigration controls where people are turned away and smothering innocent babies to death, is stretching it all somewhat isn't it?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nope, that'd be you doing that:
> 
> Incidentally, if someone is a second generation immigrant that means they were born here, and so they are, strictly speaking, 'native'.



So when I mention the words "Native" and "American" - do you think of White European Americans as well as those erm...erm...Native Americans?


----------



## sovereignb (Feb 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> i know it is hard for you to empathise and it will never happen to you down to luck of where you were born.
> 
> in a situation where you would get more support from being younger and you were desperate for that support, would you bend the truth, claim you were younger to get that support?
> pretty simple really



Like i said, your missing the point i have made several times throughout this thread. Exploiting that support, to do nothing but harm society...i dont see how anyone can agree with this? But clearly, most in this thread do or dont believe it could possibly happen.

Im also interested to know why all those waiting at Calais are not claiming asylum there or any of the other places they may have stopped before reaching there?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Not stopping people coming here, but if it does turn out they are a part of something bigger (exploiting children say), then you believe such people should still be given the right to stay here? Serve their time in a UK prison and then be released back into the community, with all the issues that may entail (housing etc)
> 
> I dont for the life of me understand how someone can be supposedly fleeing persecution, only to shit in the country that gives them safe haven and the people of that country should just deal with it, along with the existing dregs we already have. Maybe we have a difference of opinion but thanks for being able to have a healthy discussion about it.



Yup. One name spring to mind.

Gary Glitter.

I wonder if Spooky Frank reckons the Cambodians were cunts for sending GG back to Blighty.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Im also interested to know why all those waiting at Calais are not claiming asylum there or any of the other places they may have stopped before reaching there?



If you were really interested, you'd read the thread.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Comparing stricter immigration controls where people are turned away and smothering innocent babies to death, is stretching it all somewhat isn't it?



The logic is the same: fuck these people off because they _might_ commit crimes.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Hypothetically, if someone from the UK went to Pakistan, claiming they in fear of their life here, but ultimately went there to recruit young girls into exploitation, what do you think should happen?



I can do straw men too: what about a Pakistani man found guilty of forcing a young woman into marriage? Would you throw him in jail here in the UK, or deport him to Pakistan where there's a very good chance he'd face no punishment at all?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I can do straw men too: what about a Pakistani man found guilty of forcing a young woman into marriage? Would you throw him in jail here in the UK, or deport him to Pakistan where there's a very good chance he'd face no punishment at all?



Why either or? How about jail him here then deport him?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> The logic is the same: fuck these people off because they _might_ commit crimes.



What about checking out whether they have actually committed crimes?

I appreciate that it's a sick, cruel old world out there. I accept that sometimes people need to claim asylum. But there is a balance and I get the impression that you're only interested in one side of it all.

1400 abused girls and that's just Rotherham. What about the rest of the country?

At what point do you draw the line? 500,000 abused children? 1 million?

Bluescreen is concerned that some are "politically exploiting" the issue. Really? What the EDL, BNP, Britain First & UKIP?

Where's the left wing protest groups in this that "politically exploiting" the issue? Too busy going after soft targets like Christian nut-jobs protesting outside abortion clinics? When the minions of Mohammed are involved, no matter how shocking the crimes, the primary concern of the left is political groups like EDL/BNP/BF/NF & UKIP.

The double standards is disappointing and telling to say the least.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

It finally sheds its skin


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> It finally sheds its skin



Oh do we have another name calling witch hunt on our hands? Oh goody, it's so much easier than debate, don't you think?


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## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

I don't like racists. We don't tolerate them here. Fuck right off and have a debate somewhere else.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't like racists. We don't tolerate them here. Fuck right off and have a debate somewhere else.



I don't like paedophiles...


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## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> I don't like paedophiles...


Especially brown ones? 
Seriously, fuck off.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't like racists. We don't tolerate them here. Fuck right off and have a debate somewhere else.



Also....when people jumped up and down screaming that white girls were being systematically abused by mainly Pakistani perpetrators, at what point did you stop telling them to "fuck off" for being "racist" ?


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## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Especially brown ones?
> Seriously, fuck off.



No. I won't.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> No. I won't.


We'll make you, then


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## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> We'll make you, then



Whahahahahhaha ban him!!!! He's pointed out that the left has double standards !!!!!!!!!!!!

When are you going to class yourself as middle class? Because you certainly aspire to being middle class don't you?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Whahahahahhaha ban him!!!! He's pointed out that the left has double standards !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> When are you going to class yourself as middle class? Because you certainly aspire to being middle class don't you?


I was telling you to fuck off cos you're a racist. Fuck off. 
Not sure of the relevance of those questions.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> I was telling you to fuck off cos you're a racist. Fuck off.
> Not sure of the relevance of those questions.



{{{ Orang Utan }}} XX

Let me know when you're feeling better, I hate to see you this way...even if you are one of those middle class types, that isn't my cup of tea.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

Why do you keep talking about the middle classes? 
Seriously this is not the site for you. Begone with you.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Why do you keep talking about the middle classes?
> Seriously this is not the site for you. Begone with you.



Why do you keep talking about racism? Do you not see the parallels here?

Middle class cunts telling working class people that they are racist, for merely pointing out a problem in Rotherham. 

That's why I'm bringing up class. You keep pointing out "racism" when there is none. To me that's a middle class sport if there ever was one.

Here's a suggestion for you. Get out of your little mood and point out how I'm being racist or jog on and make yourself a cup of tea and calm yourself down.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

You brought up Rotherham on a thread about migration from Calais. I see you.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> You brought up Rotherham on a thread about migration from Calais. I see you.



So fucking what if I did? I try not to insult people, but fuck me with a fig laced pink feather duster, you're fucking nuts!!! LOL

Anyway....subject of child abuse was brought up, which is why I mentioned Rotherham.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...nd-the-uk-border.330772/page-11#post-13712424


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## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

You're the one associating paedophiles with immigrants. The majority of the perps in Rotherham were born here. Most child abusers in this country are white natives.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> You're the one associating paedophiles with immigrants. The majority of the perps in Rotherham were born here. Most child abusers in this country are white natives.



Oh please!

Pointing out that people have been accused of being racist, merely for pointing out a problem, that just so happens to have involved Pakistani men as the perps, with white girls as the victims, is not associating immigrants with paedophilia. Nor is pointing out double standards with the left.

Your kind of reasoning, no hounding of people trying to discus these issues, is very very dangerous.

On the Rotherham thread, people have correctly pointed out that people have been hounded for trying to get a political solution to the problem and here you are accusing me of being racist, simply because I believe in tougher border controls.

I don't believe people should be stopped from coming to Britain because of what they might be a closet paedophile. But I do believe people should have a criminal background check before being let loose in our country.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> You're the one associating paedophiles with immigrants. The majority of the perps in Rotherham were born here. Most child abusers in this country are white natives.



Are you saying that White people are more likely to be paedophiles? Also, immigrants can be white, you do realize that, don't you?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

You seem to be suggesting that Pakistanis raping white girls is more of a problem than white men raping their own children. And you wonder why I've clocked you as a racist.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> You seem to be suggesting that Pakistanis raping white girls is more of a problem than white men raping their own children. And you wonder why I've clocked you as a racist.



No. You seem to have one hell of an imagination.

Most countries on this mudball of ours, put some real effort into doing background checks on potential citizens, no matter what their colour.

Are such countries racist?

Are you capable of answering simple questions?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Are you saying that White people are more likely to be paedophiles? Also, immigrants can be white, you do realize that, don't you?


I'm saying that child abuse is universal. So because most people in Britain are white, child abusers are more likely to be white.
You brought up Rotherham and 'Mohammed's minions'.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

Yoh


Spirit Of Slade said:


> No. You seem to have one hell of an imagination.
> 
> Most countries on this mudball of ours, put some real effort into doing background checks on potential citizens, no matter what their colour.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you are asking the questions, when I'm talking about something else. You keep moving the goalposts. Now fuck off you daft racist.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm saying that child abuse is universal. So because most people in Britain are white, child abusers are more likely to be white.
> You brought up Rotherham and 'Mohammed's minions'.



That's right I did, because child abuse was brought into the debate @ post #138.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 9, 2015)

You were already banned at least once layabout. So yeah, OU is right, fuck off again.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Yoh
> 
> I don't know why you are asking the questions, when I'm talking about something else. You keep moving the goalposts. Now fuck off you daft racist.



Questions are asked, it's part of debate and reasoning. Clearly you don't understand this, which goes a long way into explaining why you're such an angry and disturbed soul.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> You were already banned at least once layabout. So yeah, OU is right, fuck off again.


Aaaaaaah!


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> You were already banned at least once layabout. So yeah, OU is right, fuck off again.



Wrong. Again.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 9, 2015)

Spirit Of Slade said:


> Wrong. Again.


Yeah? I wonder what the odds of two different posters both using the term mudball in a rant about border controls is? What would you give me if i doubled that up with them both having grown up in and around slade gardens?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

It's interesting this. You can't make accusations of racism stick, because lets face it, I'm not interested in sanctioning any one ethnicity and take a dim view of anyone who moulds their politics in such a way. 

But dare critisize the duplicity and double standards of the left - and just look at the way you're squealing that I've been banned before, in the hope that I'll be banned. 

Disgraceful, it really is.


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah? I wonder what the odds of two different posters both using the term mudball in a rant about border controls is? What would you give me if i doubled that up with them both having grown up in and around slade gardens?



Oh...I don't know...give me another 400 posts and another popular Americanism might pop up!

Fuck me, whatever next? A broken clock being correct twice a day?


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

FFS can you lot get off the phones please?


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 9, 2015)

Ah, right, yes I see, cheers for that. Returning racist banned.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 9, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> My response was supposed to quote the point people are making that we already have criminals born and bred in the UK. I dont see how importing more from other countries is remotely beneficial for anything.



People aren't either criminals or non-criminals.  Many people who commit crimes in a desperate situation will stop committing them in a situation that offers the possibility of legal advancement.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah? I wonder what the odds of two different posters both using the term mudball in a rant about border controls is? What would you give me if i doubled that up with them both having grown up in and around slade gardens?



Ha, well spotted. And good riddance to bad rubbish.

Tomorrow I'll try and post another update on the situation in Calais, bedtime now though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> You were already banned at least once layabout. So yeah, OU is right, fuck off again.



At least twice. First as layabout, the supposed _naif_ who joined the BNP but didn't know they were racist, and then as Tonka toy.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> At least twice. First as layabout, the supposed _naif_ who joined the BNP but didn't know they were racist, and then as Tonka toy.



The real story here is how did Butchers remember someone using the word "mudball" ten years ago?

I'd have thought that was impossible unless I'd seen it with my own eyes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> People aren't either criminals or non-criminals.  Many people who commit crimes in a desperate situation will stop committing them in a situation that offers the possibility of legal advancement.


yeh but that's saying that the only actor in that is the 'criminal' whereas criminality can happen to anyone, just like treading in dogshit


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but that's saying that the only actor in that is the 'criminal' whereas criminality can happen to anyone, just like treading in dogshit



That was my point.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> The real story here is how did Butchers remember someone using the word "mudball" ten years ago?
> 
> I'd have thought that was impossible unless I'd seen it with my own eyes.


He didn't have to. I'm guessing he spotted an odd word and then did a search. Bingo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> That was my point.


what a pity that's not what you said.


----------



## The Boy (Feb 10, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> He didn't have to. I'm guessing he spotted an odd word and then did a search. Bingo.


'zactly


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 10, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> The French and British governments seem to have come up with a carrot-and-stick type plan to get the migrants out of the town without actually letting them cross the border. A new day centre providing washing facillities etc will be opened at a site a few miles from Calais itself in the near future, although construction doesn't seem to be moving very quickly. It's expected that after the jungles are cleared the migrants will be forced to set up new jungles in the area around this new day centre, an area with no access to the town and which the police will be able to control access to.



Update on this: we now know that this is definitely the plan for the migrants in Calais, clear the existing jungles and encourage (force) people to set up new camps in the area around this new day centre. Because completion of the day centre is late, physical eviction of the jungles will not now take place until late March/early April. Despite this, people are already being encouraged by the police to move from the jungles where they're currently staying (all of which have access to bottleneck points on the road network leading to the port or the tunnel) and camp out by the still unfinished day centre instead.

Government approved charities working with migrants are being leant on to help force the change. Distribution of hot food in the town itself has now been outlawed; where before there was still one charity left distributing one meal a day to a couple of hundred people. Most of the suitable sites for food distribution had already been closed off by the local authorities, so meals were being served from trestle tables under a bridge. Even this is no longer permitted.

Police presence around the jungles has increased, ostensibly to allow them to plan for the evictions but most likely just to intimidate people into leaving. The evictions themselves are likely to be brutal. When jungles are evicted in Calais everything left behind is destroyed; tents and bedding and clothes are bulldozed, sometimes doused in pepper spray and then taken to the dump where they are mixed with rotting rubbish to make sure they are completely unusable.

The 'unofficial' activists working in Calais are unlikely to have enough bodies or enough energy to help physically resist the eviction, but if there is a strong presence of european activists with cameras observing the proceedings then that may help to reduce the levels of violence directed at the migrants. To do this we will need more cameras, video cameras especially, and more volunteers. The police have been seizing cameras from activists recently and destroying them; we're hoping that simply having more people and more cameras at any one time will make this tactic unworkable for them. French police are scared of cameras. I've seen this for myself, pointing a camera at them really does make them change their behaviour.

So if anyone has an old video camera they don't need, and they could donate it to the activists in Calais, it might help prevent a lot of bad things happening to people.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 10, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> The real story here is how did Butchers remember someone using the word "mudball" ten years ago?
> 
> I'd have thought that was impossible unless I'd seen it with my own eyes.



Search is most likely, but it's also possible he's one of those rare people with perfect memory (or a perfect recall of an aspect of memory - visual, auditory etc).


----------



## Greebo (Feb 10, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Search is most likely, but it's also possible he's one of those rare people with perfect memory (or a perfect recall of an aspect of memory - visual, auditory etc).


It wouldn't take perfect memory - just a memory for quirks.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 10, 2015)

As for why moving everyone out of the town would be very bad, for one thing there is often pretty serious beef between the different communities of migrants. This happens because of historical, political and cultural baggage but also because of the particular stresses and strains of people's living conditions in Calais. Space is limited, resources are limited and tensions are generally high. Small conflicts can escalate easily. The new policy will effectively force everyone to share the same space, a much more limited space than the various settlements are currently occupying. This will almost certainly lead to fighting, and fights in Calais can be epic. 

Secondly, access to the new omni-jungle will be controlled by the authorities. Most likely people will not be allowed access to the town itself at all, and so they won't be able to buy food, supplies or the uniquitous and vital lyca sim cards. This too will increase conficts over whatever resources people do have access to, which could well play into the hands of the existing gangs and give them even greater power. Conversely, people not approved by the state won't be able to get in to contact the migrants or provide support. Supplies which are donated for the migrants might not ever reach people. Many migrants are reliant on donations of clothes, tents and bedding. Under the new regime even those with cash to pay for these items may not be able to buy them. 

It's possible I'm being overly pessimistic here, it's possible the presence of a day centre will actually be an improvement. There are voices in France calling for better treatment of migrants, and this may be a genuine response to that. What could be happening though, what people on the ground are starting to suspect, is that autonomous shanty towns are being replaced by a concentration camp.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 10, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> <snip>The 'unofficial' activists working in Calais are unlikely to have enough bodies or enough energy to help physically resist the eviction, but if there is a strong presence of european activists with cameras observing the proceedings then that may help to reduce the levels of violence directed at the migrants. To do this we will need more cameras, video cameras especially, and more volunteers. The police have been seizing cameras from activists recently and destroying them; we're hoping that simply having more people and more cameras at any one time will make this tactic unworkable for them. French police are scared of cameras. I've seen this for myself, pointing a camera at them really does make them change their behaviour.
> 
> So if anyone has an old video camera they don't need, and they could donate it to the activists in Calais, it might help prevent a lot of bad things happening to people.


Good point - even a digital camera and some large capacity memory cards might be useful.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Search is most likely, but it's also possible he's one of those rare people with perfect memory (or a perfect recall of an aspect of memory - visual, auditory etc).



I suspect it's the latter.

I knew another guy like that once.  He could look at a printed page for ten seconds, then recite it word-perfect.  Absolutely unbelievable.  I'd be ruling the world if I could do that.


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## likesfish (Feb 10, 2015)

A solution would be an agreed EU refugee agreement so italy and greece dont get swamped and the jungle gets closed


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 10, 2015)

likesfish said:


> A solution would be an agreed EU refugee agreement so italy and greece dont get swamped and the jungle gets closed



...including the UK taking in our fair share. In the case of people from countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, our fair share should clearly be a lot higher than everyone else's fair share.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2015)

Here is a report, written by a friend of mine, on the planned evictions of the jungles and the new 'day care' centre.

https://watchtheborders.wordpress.c...wilderness-jules-ferry-and-calais-new-jungle/



> The authorities have announced all camps and squats will be evicted after the end of the month. All migrants must move, willingly or by force, to a new jungle–ghetto near the new day centre Jules-Ferry, where they will be ‘tolerated’ – not allowed to stay!  The centre is situated in a wilderness in the middle of nowhere, out of town and out of sight. No accommodation will be provided, the centre will be only open by day. All men and boys can bring their tents, else the tents will be destroyed. There are many unaccompanied minors, the youngest age 12 or less.
> 
> A hundred women and children will be allowed to sleep in the Jules-Ferry centre – in fact they have been ordered to move to Jules-Ferry centre, where they will have 4 square meters each at their disposal in a prefab. A disaster, as far as the protection of women and children is concerned: they will pretty much be given into the hands of people smugglers and prostitution rings.





> The local associations like SALAM who have supported migrants for years were not even counsulted. There are no houses there and no potential witnesses: people will have no protection in case of fights or police brutality, especially at night when the employees and volunteers from associations go home. At present police do not usually go into the camps – though that could change – but they are circling the streets around the camps all the time, beating and gassing people. Migrants are also afraid police will not let them go out the new camp to try to go to England.



Sadly nothing in this article seems implausible to me given my own experiences and the stories of migrants I've met in Calais and here in the UK.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2015)

Trying to write down some of my own thoughts on the situation but I'm not getting anywhere. Long story short, I'm afraid that something very bad is about to happen to a lot of good people.


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## bluescreen (Jul 27, 2015)

SpookyFrank Perhaps there's another thread on this I haven't found, but would really appreciate your insight on the latest crisis. How do you think the UK can best deal with it?

Everyone seems to think it's a UK problem rather than a French problem or a Euro problem. I don't understand why people find the UK so attractive unless it's just the ubiquity of English. We treat migrants like shit. I don't understand why the UK is preferable to France, especially given how hazardous it can be to get here.

Do you think we should process immigration this side of the Channel, as the French suggest? And do you think we should let everyone in? We probably should...


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## frogwoman (Jul 27, 2015)

France treats migrants even worse. (Although theres little to choose between)


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## Greebo (Jul 27, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> <snip> Everyone seems to think it's a UK problem rather than a French problem or a Euro problem. I don't understand why people find the UK so attractive unless it's just the ubiquity of English. We treat migrants like shit. I don't understand why the UK is preferable to France, especially given how hazardous it can be to get here.<snip>


You think people in the UK treat immigrants like shit?  You should see how they're treated in France, particularly the ones who aren't white and West European.

Furthermore, it's even more difficult to get the right to vote (if you weren't born there, or your parents weren't) in France than it is in the UK, in spite of that recently brought in ridiculous citizenship test and the high fee etc.


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## bluescreen (Jul 27, 2015)

Are they treated worse than here? Perhaps they are. UK certainly doesn't have the monopoly on racism. But no way is it the paradise some people seem to imagine. It's pretty bad when people have to live in tents and give birth in the street.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 27, 2015)

Just looking at how the French are kicking up at the Saudi king having a shitty bit of beach closed off in front of his villa in the south of France. It's a fairly normal thing to do for a head of state, yet cos he's an Arab the French are making out like the monarchy has been restored.

Now imagine how they react when you're a forrin who's not worth €billions...


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Are they treated worse than here?



Short answer, yes. In most of Europe migrants are treated worse than they are here. Many people trying to get to the UK have tried to live elsewhere in Europe. In the case of countries like Greece and Italy, it's overt public racism that makes life untenable for many people. In Belgium, Denmark, France etc the problem is one of state brutality and mistreatment; detention centres etc. Belgium IIRC locks up more migrants than the UK in absolute terms, an impressive achievement considering Belgium is about the size of Kent.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2015)

There is of course no simple answer to 'why do people want to come to the UK' because 'people' is a pretty broad category. You might as well ask why so many of the people who are born here choose to stay.


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## sovereignb (Jul 29, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> SpookyFrank Perhaps there's another thread on this I haven't found, but would really appreciate your insight on the latest crisis. How do you think the UK can best deal with it?
> 
> Everyone seems to think it's a UK problem rather than a French problem or a Euro problem. I don't understand why people find the UK so attractive unless it's just the ubiquity of English. We treat migrants like shit. I don't understand why the UK is preferable to France, especially given how hazardous it can be to get here.
> 
> Do you think we should process immigration this side of the Channel, as the French suggest? And do you think we should let everyone in? We probably should...



The UK doesn't treat immigrants like shit compared to many other countries. The myth of golden streets and unlimited job opportunities continues to perpetuated.

Why do you think everyone should be let in?


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## bluescreen (Jul 29, 2015)

I think there's an argument that everyone should be let in (I said 'perhaps') because it's unconscionable that they should be left to suffer the way they are suffering in The Jungle in Calais, or that they should be risking their lives in a way that would be considered an outrage if it were happening here on this island but is apparently not, so long as it's happening over there abroad. I don't know how else that suffering can be relieved, given that France is already doing a lot more than they are given credit for. Against that is the very obvious argument of the alleged pull factor: if we make it easy (hell, it's not remotely easy, is it, to get this far?) then more will come. I don't honestly know how much weight to give to either side of the argument, even while acknowledging there are many more sides to it than just these two. 

What I am certain of is that continued conflict and climate change - which induces further conflict - will only exacerbate the exodus. We aint seen nothing yet. I'm also reasonably sure that the people trying to enter the UK are young and able - the very people most needed back home. In an ideal world we'd wave a wand and create world peace and people would move only because they wanted to, not because they had to. We're not in that world, so how do we improve the one we've got (without making everything worse)?

The BBC (I know I know) has an interesting feature on the naive question I asked Frank earlier:
Would Calais migrants really be better off in the UK?


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Why do you think everyone should be let in?



Everyone should be able to go wherever they want. If ten million people come over here tomorrow morning and fuck everything up by, I dunno, existing when you'd rather they didn't then you are entirely at liberty to fuck off somewhere else where those people aren't. That's why free movement for everyone is such a great system. Everyone will just keep shifting around until all the racist throwbacks have been chased off to some godforsaken bit of tundra that nobody else wants to live in and the rest of us can share the rest of the world and generally have a nice time with no cunt telling us we should be killing each other because we have different flags.


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## bluescreen (Jul 29, 2015)

You reckon that's how it could be, Frank?


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> You reckon that's how it could be, Frank?



Worth a try I reckon. The current set up is a crock of shit.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 29, 2015)

In principle, the jealous guarding of borders tends to boil down to "we've got ours - fuck you!". 

Fairly mainstream attitudes are thus repuslive, anti human, and drenched in racism.


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## bluescreen (Jul 29, 2015)

Thing that bothers me is that people don't just shrug and head off to the tundra. They fight for what they consider is their turf and it gets bloody.


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## bluescreen (Jul 29, 2015)

I don't mean they have to, just that they do.

ETA: if no one acknowledged the possibility that anyone might want to defend borders, would racism disappear? If not, how to deal with the desire to defend borders?


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## brogdale (Jul 29, 2015)

Some light relief in a dark tale...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 29, 2015)

Migrant is crushed to death in the tunnel, Cameron says...




			
				David Cameron said:
			
		

> I have every sympathy with holidaymakers who are finding access to Calais difficult because of the disturbances there and we will do everything we can to work with the French to bring these things to a conclusion


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## brogdale (Jul 29, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Migrant is crushed to death in the tunnel, Cameron says...


Some reports that he was 13 year old Sudanese lad.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 29, 2015)

And the world is up in arms over a dead lion.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 29, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And the world is up in arms over a dead lion.




I have no problem with the anger about the lion. The reason why a 13 year old migrant is harder to examine is because it shows a very ugly reflection in the mirror. The system to quite an extent, and quite a lot of people (perhaps not consciously) essentially want people like him dead, certainly in preference to him persuing any kind of freedom for the life he thinks best for him.

This is the philosophy of "show me the bodies floating in the water - I still dont care", a philosophy shared widely beyond the harpy who gave verbal form to the idea.


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## likesfish (Jul 29, 2015)

Immigration control is always going to be racist when you can double or treble your life expectancy getting out of eritria or Afghanistan for instance.
Not sure taking everyone in is a realistic option though.


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## Pingu (Jul 29, 2015)

likesfish said:


> Immigration control is always going to be racist when you can double or treble your life expectancy getting out of eritria or Afghanistan for instance.
> Not sure taking everyone in is a realistic option though.




maybe if we invaded and imposed our systems and ways of life in the originating countries we could help improve things to an extent such as they wouldn't need to leave... i mean what could possibly go wrong?


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## likesfish (Jul 29, 2015)

But we didnt did we this time we just invaded wrecked some shit and pissed off home
The original evil empire™ Did impose a system and rule of law mosty the rules we just made up but there was law and order 21st style no law or order but air strikes


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## Pingu (Jul 29, 2015)

likesfish said:


> But we didnt did we this time we just invaded wrecked some shit and pissed off home
> The original evil empire™ Did impose a system and rule of law mosty the rules we just made up but there was law and order 21st style no law or order but air strikes



to be fair you have a point.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 29, 2015)

So invading and imposing doesn't work, invading and not imposing doesn't work either.

Gee, I'm fucked if I know what to do with these countries then.


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## likesfish (Jul 29, 2015)

Invading and imposing does work but you've got to turn up mob handed and stay for years and years and be an utter bastard for a few years


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2015)

likesfish said:


> But we didnt did we this time we just invaded wrecked some shit and pissed off home
> The original evil empire™ Did impose a system and rule of law mosty the rules we just made up but there was law and order 21st style no law or order but air strikes



You can't commit crimes to impose the rule of law. That's not a thing. You're not upholding shit, you're just a criminal.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2015)

likesfish said:


> Immigration control is always going to be racist when you can double or treble your life expectancy getting out of eritria or Afghanistan for instance.
> Not sure taking everyone in is a realistic option though.



A single country opening its border to everyone would probably cause chaos. Paticularly a wealthy country like Britain, and one at the heart of a massive linguistic, cultural and historical web.

This is why we say, _no nations, no borders. _


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## Celyn (Jul 29, 2015)

What happens to the people in Calais if they cannot get to the UK?  I mean, what does France do to them?  Do they get left to stave, or get arrested, imprisoned or what?

N.B I am NOT saying they ought to stay in France, but I genuinely don't know what bad stuff befalls if they stay there, but anyone risking their life stowing away on the undersides of truck etc is obviously pretty desperate.

Does  France not provide any support for asylum seekers, or has it already decided that the people in Calais don't qualify and should just die or something? Yet if you come from Eritrea, surely you're a valid refugee?


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## 8115 (Jul 29, 2015)

Celyn said:


> What happens to the people in Calais if they cannot get to the UK?  I mean, what does France do to them?  Do they get left to stave, or get arrested, imprisoned or what?
> 
> N.B I am NOT saying they ought to stay in France, but I genuinely don't know what bad stuff befalls if they stay there, but anyone risking their life stowing away on the undersides of truck etc is obviously pretty desperate.
> 
> Does  France not provide any support for asylum seekers, or has it already decided that the people in Calais don't qualify and should just die or something? Yet if you come from Eritrea, surely you're a valid refugee?


I think, they mainly live in camps and survive on charity and maybe minimal state aid.

I don't think they get much from France, one reason being that they aren't claiming asylum in France.


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## Celyn (Jul 29, 2015)

8115 said:


> ...
> 
> I don't think they get much from France, one reason being that they aren't claiming asylum in France.



Ah!  I seem to have missed out on that rather important detail.  Oh, what a bloody mess.


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## sovereignb (Jul 29, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> I think there's an argument that everyone should be let in (I said 'perhaps') because it's unconscionable that they should be left to suffer the way they are suffering in The Jungle in Calais, or that they should be risking their lives in a way that would be considered an outrage if it were happening here on this island but is apparently not, so long as it's happening over there abroad. I don't know how else that suffering can be relieved, given that France is already doing a lot more than they are given credit for. Against that is the very obvious argument of the alleged pull factor: if we make it easy (hell, it's not remotely easy, is it, to get this far?) then more will come. I don't honestly know how much weight to give to either side of the argument, even while acknowledging there are many more sides to it than just these two.
> 
> What I am certain of is that continued conflict and climate change - which induces further conflict - will only exacerbate the exodus. We aint seen nothing yet. I'm also reasonably sure that the people trying to enter the UK are young and able - the very people most needed back home. In an ideal world we'd wave a wand and create world peace and people would move only because they wanted to, not because they had to. We're not in that world, so how do we improve the one we've got (without making everything worse)?
> 
> ...



I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks for an answer that considers all sides of the equation (and it is truly a big equation with no simple answer). Unlike Frank, who seems to resort to swearing and talks of racism when someone questions or opposes his warped standpoint on the matter.

We've definitely seen an increased number of unaccompanied minors presenting where I work over the last few months so clearly something in equation is getting worse.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> I'm also reasonably sure that the people trying to enter the UK are young and able - the very people most needed back home.



Patronising nonsense. What if it's the young and able who are drafted into the military and executed if they desert, as they are in Eritrea? What if 'home' is a pile of rubble now presided over by a horde of nihilistic mass murderers, as it is for many Syrians and Iraqis? What if only tough young men are likely to even survive the journey to the UK, so they go alone in order to try and earn money to send back to the rest of their families?

If you think these people should stop whining, roll on home and get a job in burger king like you did when you were their age, have the decency to go look them in the eye and tell them yourself.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2015)

I don't believe everyone in Calais would be better off in the UK for what it's worth. But what I really don't believe is the people who talk as if these people are being left stranded in Calais _for their own good. 
_
The question of whether or not coming to the UK is going to improve someone's life is irrelevant, a complete red herring. What matters is that a person has decided that they want to come here and _we have no right to tell them they can't. _If you don't know a person, you don't know their situation, you don't know the choices facing them, how can you claim to know what's best for them?


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## crossthebreeze (Jul 30, 2015)

From Calais Migrant Solidarity - this clarified of some of the facts  for me:
https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/the-crisis-is-the-border/
According to this not 1000-2000 people trying to storm Eurotunnel at once (as the headlines are saying), but the number of attempts blocked by police or border staff over one night - some people will try several times a night and get counted each time.  *11 people have died in Calais and other parts of the French coastal area since June this year while trying to cross to the UK*.  They say that what is happening at Eurotunnel is a direct consequence of increased security at the ferry terminal - increasing security just means that people have to take more risks.  They reckon that measures short of no borders, no nations - moving the British border to British soil and ending the Le Touquet agreement, along with introducing a safe and dignified way of coming to the UK and applying for asylum from abroad -  would have an immediate humanitarian affect.


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## frogwoman (Jul 30, 2015)

The uk has only taken 200 syrian refugees.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 30, 2015)

Sadly with all the present hysteria I can't see any progress being made in terms of UK border policy. The whole situation is an ideal red herring for a right wing government to distract people with.

If there are changes to policy they will be forced upon Britain by France. Everything the French have done to try and drive migrants out of calais or keep them contained has just created a different kind of chaos. In the case of the new camp and the new fences the result has been a huge rise in the number of deaths. 11 people have died in two months, compared to 15 in the whole of last year. I hate to mention it in the same breath but transport links have been seriously disrupted as well. This was all entirely predictable and the French authorities were warned about it at the time.

Pretty much nowhere else in Europe has the policy we do, that of stopping refugees from even coming to us in the first place. Everywhere else has land borders so it would be impossible anyway. I have said on this thread that asylum seekers are treated relatively well in the UK, but that has to be seen in the context of what so many of them are forced to endure to even get here in the first place. We have a duty as part of an international community, and especially as a wealthy country which has long profited from poverty and bloodshed in much of the rest of the world, we have a duty to help deal with the refugee crisis.

Policing the border at Calais costs a lot of money. The French Plods au Frontier are funded by the UK. Just like with the detention centres, you feel that money might be better spent actually providing people with support. Because migrants still come to the UK anyway. The border controls still aren't fit for purpose despite all that money, all they do is make the journey more dangerous and provide lucrative opportunities for gangsters.

Something will give sooner or later. France will stop playing ball. It's a little known fact but every so often the French border controls will just take the night off, stop giving a shit, and let fifty or a hundred people get onto the boats unimpeded. They have to do this to stop the jungles from growing too big. With the new measures this probably isn't happening any more, and I suspect that's one of the reasons why numbers of people on the ground in Calais seem to be rising. But even if the French open the gates at their end, as they do on the sly from time to time, the migrants still have to risk their necks clinging to lorry axles or whatever else to make it past UK customs at the other end.

The whole situation is a particularly sorry example of what happens when people try to enact reactionary, dog-whistle politics in the real world. Nobody can back down, no matter how obvious the failure of their schemes, because to do so would require going back on something they told us was really, really important. People are dying so politicians can save face.


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## trabant (Jul 30, 2015)

Just read through the whole thread, thanks for all the great posts spookyfrank (and a few others).

In Greece over the last 6 months there has been a vast increase in Syrians and Afghanis arriving. There is currently a camp in a park in the center of Athens that developed a few weeks back and has around 1000 people, a significant proportion are children. The state has done little, and local groups have been doing the bulk of the work, collecting and distributing contributions (which, considering the current state of things here, have been substantial), helping kids go to hospitals, guarding the area from cops, setting up a make-shift clinic etc. Most I've met are tired, frustrated, angry, hungry and scared. After an already exhausting journey, even after entering Europe, they still have a few 1000km of traveling precariously to arrive at their intended destination.

Anyway, apologies if this is too off-topic.


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## Sprocket. (Jul 30, 2015)

David Davies was on Radio4 earlier expressing his and no doubt others belief that the French should repatriate all the people without papers to their country of origin  and also for the UK government and French government to set up camps '' not the bad type'', in the vast areas of North Africa and begin processing them!
Compassion and responsibility are apparently no longer available.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2015)

this will end in tears, mark my words


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## likesfish (Jul 30, 2015)

We could concentrate the refugees/migrants in these camps now what to call them?


You can impose order with enough bloodshed but even the sociopath Davies isn't advocating British empire mk2. Yet


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2015)

likesfish said:


> We could concentrate the refugees/migrants in these camps now what to call them?
> 
> 
> You can impose order with enough bloodshed but even the sociopath Davies isn't advocating British empire mk2. Yet


it would be british empire iii or perhaps even iv.


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> David Davies was on Radio4 earlier expressing his and no doubt others belief that the French should repatriate all the people without papers to their country of origin  and also for the UK government and French government to set up camps '' not the bad type'', in the vast areas of North Africa and begin processing them!
> Compassion and responsibility are apparently no longer available.


"Not the bad type"
Like there's a good type of internment camp?


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> David Davies was on Radio4 earlier expressing his and no doubt others belief that the French should repatriate all the people without papers to their country of origin  and also for the UK government and French government to set up camps '' not the bad type'', in the vast areas of North Africa and begin processing them!
> Compassion and responsibility are apparently no longer available.


I see the "tory tornado" has spelt out his extreme views in an 'Argus' piece...


> Queuing onto the motorway was a long line of stationary lorries surrounded by asylum seekers.
> *Mainly of African appearance*, they meandered across the motorway and openly tried to climb into lorries. Some drivers, possibly on double-crewed vehicles, were out of their cabs fighting them off.





> The time has come to *make a difficult decision* which would be in the best interests of all.
> *The UK Government should finance the building of humane and comfortable refugee camps across the parts of North Africa from which refugees depart.*


Are we to assume this is the trajectory of tory policy? So, mass internment camps located in other sovereign states processing applications for asylum/refuge in the UK. 
FFS


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

No surprise really when this is the sort of ignorant shite that he tweets...


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## Sprocket. (Jul 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> No surprise really when this is the sort of ignorant shite that he tweets...




Can see Davies leading the torch and pitchfork carrying mob to the coast to repel the unwashed and unwanted!


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Can see Davies leading the torch and pitchfork carrying mob to the coast to repel the unwashed and unwanted!


I've tweeted the vermin to ask if this represents an official view.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 30, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> resort to swearing


were you clutching your pearls in horror as you typed this? swearing no less! kid crushed to death in the tunnel but swearing! my giddy aunt, we cannot countenance such a thing!


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 30, 2015)

likesfish said:


> We could concentrate the refugees/migrants in these camps now what to call them?



Australia, a country built on immigration (and genocide) has been in this game for quite a while. But it doesn't get much attention, the inmates are dirty, foreign, poor. Untermensch in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_detention_centre


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 30, 2015)

Caution: Contains Stewart Lee, but I think it makes the point well.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/28/garden-migrants-calais-border-control


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## gawkrodger (Jul 30, 2015)

Excellent article which probably belongs best in this thread. What journalism should be

http://www.dagbladet.no/spesial/vatdraktmysteriet/eng/


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks for an answer that considers all sides of the equation (and it is truly a big equation with no simple answer). Unlike Frank, who seems to resort to swearing and talks of racism when someone questions or opposes his warped standpoint on the matter.
> 
> We've definitely seen an increased number of unaccompanied minors presenting where I work over the last few months so clearly something in equation is getting worse.


where do you work (what sort of workplace, not particularly interested in the address)? and have you ever heard a colleague swear?


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

A useful contribution to the debate from UKIP's very own un-think-tank...


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## nino_savatte (Jul 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> A useful contribution to the debate from UKIP's very own un-think-tank...



Predictable tosh from the historically selective Roger Helmet.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 30, 2015)

cos war with france has always been so, so good for the country as a whole amirite?


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> cos war with france has always been so, so good for the country as a whole amirite?


It really is shit-for-brains clickbait, but Cameron's "swarm" comment puts Helmer's puerile crap in the shade.


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## Sprocket. (Jul 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> It really is shit-for-brains clickbait, but Cameron's "swarm" comment puts Helmer's puerile crap in the shade.



Let's dehumanise these poor people even more!


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## DotCommunist (Jul 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> It really is shit-for-brains clickbait, but Cameron's "swarm" comment puts Helmer's puerile crap in the shade.


appropriating the language of ukip really. My own dear hollobone has often spake of 'hordes'. Blow their country to shit then moan when the population displacement ends up in your lap. O what a world.


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Let's dehumanise these poor people even more!


Made even worse (if that's possible) by the context of (another) one of his 'trade missions' on which he begs the obscenely mega-rich "wealth creators" of Asia to come and live in UK.

He really is a fucking disgrace.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Let's dehumanise these poor people even more!


but they're poor people: cameron knows of no other way to describe them


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 30, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-to-halt-Calais-crisis-police-chief-says.html

Its like watching some sort of bizarre version of the feodarti system of the Roman Empire, send the foreigners to kick out the foreigners


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## likesfish (Jul 30, 2015)

Davies is ex TA SAS so quite possibly a psychopath. 
Not an ideal.choice for government minister.


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## 8ball (Jul 30, 2015)

likesfish said:


> Davies is ex TA SAS so quite possibly a psychopath.
> Not an ideal.choice for government minister.


 
Sounds like a perfect fit for the spec.


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## hot air baboon (Jul 30, 2015)

...not sure he is a minister is he...?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 30, 2015)

Project Hate goes into overdrive.

http://leftfootforward.org/2015/07/...o-syria-in-the-suns-shameful-calais-coverage/


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## Sprocket. (Jul 30, 2015)

Inspired by Orwell's 1984 we will now have ten minutes Hate broadcast every night at 18.00 on BBC one!
There are other Hate broadcasters available!


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## likesfish (Jul 30, 2015)

Tbf Davies took a principled stand and refused to join government .

I.e dangerous moon bat


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 31, 2015)

This is very good.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/not-migrant-hordes--people-6165167


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## kenny g (Jul 31, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


> Excellent article which probably belongs best in this thread. What journalism should be
> 
> http://www.dagbladet.no/spesial/vatdraktmysteriet/eng/



Thanks for the link. David Aronovitch referred to it in yesterdays Times article.


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## bluescreen (Jul 31, 2015)

Good article, that Mirror one, and this one in yesterday's Graun.   





> ...in terms of the overall flow of people in and out of Britain even several thousand potential illegal entrants to Britain are still a marginal issue in terms of migration especially as the numbers who have made it through can be measured in the hundreds. The vast majority of people living illegally in Britain came in the front door – through Heathrow airport – and simply overstayed their visas, yet nobody calls for the troops to be sent in to Heathrow.


The more I read about it the more I'm convinced that it was wrong to close the centre at Sangatte in 2002. It could have been made to work better than it did, and money spent on that would be far more worthwhile than this hopeless fencing and policing. It's a myth that most people want to come here. Those that do should be treated decently, not like some sort of existential threat.


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## J Ed (Jul 31, 2015)

The language of the racism of early 20th Century regimes - swarms, cockroaches, hordes, invaders - is now mainstream again.


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## gosub (Jul 31, 2015)

Am confused. the ones that crossed the Med on HMS Bulwark. -why didn't they claim asylum when they got on board? rather than getting dumped in Italy, having to make their own way to Calais and then try and break back onto UK sovereign territory?


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## bluescreen (Jul 31, 2015)

Maybe didn't know the rules?


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## sovereignb (Jul 31, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> where do you work (what sort of workplace, not particularly interested in the address)? and have you ever heard a colleague swear?



Ive been reluctant to say what I do on this forum but fuck it. I work for social services who provide support to unaccompanied minors and have been in this field of work for around 7 yrs.

As you can imagine, my colleagues and I swear quite a bit. But i haven't got time for people who refer to others as cunts/racists because they don't necessarily agree with their stance on immigration. Particular posters are much more ignorant and closeminded than they would like to think of themselves. Id like to think...actually, I know i have a wealth of knowledge about asylum seekers that reach the UK. Its a forum, people have differences of opinion. I should able to talk to others (on here and the real world) without being aggressive or defensive so expect the same back.


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## alfajobrob (Jul 31, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Ive been reluctant to say what I do on this forum but fuck it. I work for social services who provide support to unaccompanied minors and have been in this field of work for around 7 yrs.
> 
> As you can imagine, my colleagues and I swear quite a bit. But i haven't got time for people who refer to others as cunts/racists because they don't necessarily agree with their stance on immigration. Particular posters are much more ignorant and closeminded than they would like to think of themselves. Id like to think...actually, I know i have a wealth of knowledge about asylum seekers that reach the UK. Its a forum, people have differences of opinion. I should able to talk to others (on here and the real world) without being aggressive or defensive so expect the same back.



Hush now with any sensible discourse, your opinions aren't welcome here unless they fit the script - This is SPARTA/U75!!!


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## bluescreen (Jul 31, 2015)

sovereignb We keep hearing that Kent is really stretched in looking after unaccompanied minors. Obviously Kent needs extra resources. You must have a view on kids who are in Jungle 2 right now. What do you think would be best for their welfare? (I'm guessing you don't think staying in the Jungle is an answer.)


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## alfajobrob (Jul 31, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> sovereignb We keep hearing that Kent is really stretched in looking after unaccompanied minors. Obviously Kent needs extra resources. You must have a view on kids who are in Jungle 2 right now. What do you think would be best for their welfare? (I'm guessing you don't think staying in the Jungle is an answer.)



What is Jungle2


brogdale said:


> It really is shit-for-brains clickbait, but Cameron's "swarm" comment puts Helmer's puerile crap in the shade.



Show me the OED definition for "swarm" and then we can discuss what he said.

I despise the tories and everything they stand for but the PC brigade leaping on every word just pisses me off......it's lame....hobble, hobble.


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## bluescreen (Jul 31, 2015)

Jungle 2 is the new rough camp after the original Jungle was demolished. The original Jungle developed after the Sangatte camp was closed. SpookyFrank knows about this first hand. I only know what I read in the press, heaven help me.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ening-conditions-calais-jungle-2-migrant-camp


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## bluescreen (Jul 31, 2015)

As for 'swarm' it's a noun and a verb. The verb can be military as well. He used it as a noun. I think we all know what he meant.


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## alfajobrob (Jul 31, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Jungle 2 is the new rough cam after the original Jungle was demolished. The original Jungle developed after the Sangatte camp was closed. SpookyFrank knows about this first hand. I only know what I read in the press, heaven help me.
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ening-conditions-calais-jungle-2-migrant-camp



Ahh is that why the reporter was fecked on S.M after asking if they were going back to the "Jungle"....He was just a massive racist obviously!

France is a big place tbh...Has the UK got any camps with people going the opposite way or others wanting to go Sweden etc. If not I'll setup a Canada camp as I want to live there...I'm sure they will love/hate/welcome me.


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## bluescreen (Jul 31, 2015)

France takes far more refugees than we do. I suspect Sweden takes even more than France - I'd have to look it up. What is your point?

ETA: some stats here. France takes twice as many refugees as the UK. Sweden takes more than the UK which considering its much smaller population, is amazing.
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e45bb01.html


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## brogdale (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Show me the OED definition for "swarm" and then we can discuss what he said.
> 
> I despise the tories and everything they stand for but the PC brigade leaping on every word just pisses me off......it's lame....hobble, hobble.


He's a cunt using cunt's language. What's your problem?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> France takes far more refugees than we do. I suspect Sweden takes even more than France - I'd have to look it up. What is your point?



I'm feeling massively uncharitable at this moment in time, but my point is can should we just open the borders...can I go live in Canada\US\Aus\Russia\Ghana etc. etc. on a whim?

The fact is the Calais migrants are economic ones. I don't blame them and would do same myself but hate the hand wringing. We should take in more asylum seekers but I see a difference between the two.


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## bluescreen (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm feeling massively uncharitable at this moment in time, but my point is can should we just open the borders...can I go live in Canada\US\Aus\Russia\Ghana etc. etc. on a whim?
> 
> The fact is the Calais migrants are economic ones. I don't blame them and would do same myself but hate the hand wringing.


You have got to be kidding. Where do you get your information that they are economic migrants? Sources, please. What does that even mean when your town is destroyed and the militia are after you?


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## alfajobrob (Aug 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> You have got to be kidding. Where do you get your information that they are economic migrants? Sources, please. What does that even mean when your town is destroyed and the militia are after you?



They are in France already, they are in a "safe space" if that helps your language. Why do you then need to risk your life further unless for economics or preference?


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## bluescreen (Aug 1, 2015)

No, I don't have a problem with the language and I understand the principle that you are supposed to apply for asylum at the first Euro spot you land on. Actually I suspect life isn't like that for people who haven't read the EU rule book. When you say you'd do the same yourself, do you really mean that? That you'd live in those squalid conditions, then risk your life clinging to a truck or a train? These are desperate people and to label them economic migrants is a convenient way of shunting them off our moral radar. Assuming they even are economic migrants, which many aren't. I'm not saying the UK should instantly open its arms to everyone in Jungle 2 tomorrow (though that would probably solve more problems than it would create). I'm saying we should treat people decently. They should have somewhere clean and safe to stay while they are waiting assessment, and frankly I would turn only criminals away.


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## bluescreen (Aug 1, 2015)

And ffs in my ideal world I wouldn't be employing Home Office numpties/patsies like the one who denied Ai Wei Wei his business visa.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> They are in France already, they are in a "safe space" if that helps your language. Why do you then need to risk your life further unless for economics or preference?



Many reasons, but usually because they have family here, speak English rather than French, naively believe that colonial history means they will find Britain more culturally accepting etc. Given the level of precarity they live with, such things are less a matter of economics or preference than the difference between being able to survive and not. Tbh though I'm really not sure why you think staying in the Jungle would be something they'd do if they felt there was any other choice - it's not like they're sniffily turning down another slice of cake as French cops beg them to stay.

Anyhoo if you're interested in reading up, there's a decent introduction and lots of background (with a few spelling mistakes) at the Calais Migrant Solidarity website. They've been working on the ground at Calais for four years now and do know their eggs.


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## free spirit (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> They are in France already, they are in a "safe space" if that helps your language. Why do you then need to risk your life further unless for economics or preference?


indeed, what's stopping them from being able to scratch a living as an illegal immigrant in a country where they don't speak the language or have any family, friends or resident communities from their home country living there?

Hard to fathom really isn't it.


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## alfajobrob (Aug 1, 2015)

Rob Ray said:


> Many reasons, but usually because they have family here, speak English rather than French, naively believe that colonial history means they will find Britain more culturally accepting etc. Given the level of precarity they live with, such things are less a matter of economic preference than the difference between being able to survive and not.
> 
> Tbh though I'm really not sure why you think staying in the Jungle would be something they'd do if they felt there was any other choice - it's not like they're sniffily turning down another slice of cake as French cops beg them to stay.
> 
> Anyhoo if you're interested in reading up, there's a decent introduction and lots of background (with a few spelling mistakes) at the Calais Migrant Solidarity website.



Fair enough if you believe anyone who has mistaken ideas about the UK or can speak English can migrate here. I prefer to do it on need and asylum and I don't believe in open borders. I guess we differ.

The transfer of labour is piss poor and I'm in a position that doesn't really labour at all. I'm as guilty as the next man but less so than the ones that judge me on it.

Talks to cat...

edited clicks link...will get back.


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## sovereignb (Aug 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> sovereignb We keep hearing that Kent is really stretched in looking after unaccompanied minors. Obviously Kent needs extra resources. You must have a view on kids who are in Jungle 2 right now. What do you think would be best for their welfare? (I'm guessing you don't think staying in the Jungle is an answer.)



I honestly don't have the answer for all issues. I only work with ones who reach us via the Home Office rota or who miraculously get dropped off at our offices. Kent districts are obviously feeling the pinch more that other authorities at the moment, because they would have to temporarily support claimants until they are dispersed to local authorities throughout the country.

Its too simple to just say "yes, everyone come in". It would be great if we could somehow prioritise the actual kids in the Jungle and get them to safety, whether it was this country or another. But when you have grown men claiming to be children (and you have absolutely no knowledge of their background other what they are telling you) there is a whole set of other implications when placed in children's homes and foster carers.

I completely see your point about criminal activity, yet you would only really get a sense of those characters  when they are already here and things become evident in their daily living. But I guarantee you there would be posters on here that feel either criminal "asylum seekers/migrants" don't exist, or that they are still "entitled" to stay here.


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## sovereignb (Aug 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> You have got to be kidding. Where do you get your information that they are economic migrants? Sources, please. *What does that even mean when your town is destroyed and the militia are after you*?



Not every asylum seeker is coming from those circumstances...you really are being naïve if you believe that.
Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing, under the guise of an asylum claim. Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???

Of course, if you had family and friends in that place far far away, would/should you not go to them? Or should you just pretend you don't know anyone and have resources used on you that could be used for those genuinely in need?


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## alfajobrob (Aug 1, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Not every asylum seeker is coming from those circumstances. I'm not trying to be rude but you really are being naïve if you believe that.
> Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing, under the guise of an asylum claim. Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???
> 
> Of course, if you had family and friends in that place far far away, would/should you not go to them? Or should you just pretend you don't know anyone and have resources used on you that could be used for those genuinely in need?



A place like Wales?

I'm ready to start a fund to be honest!


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## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)




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## bluescreen (Aug 1, 2015)

*Sigh* Of course I realise that not everyone is an actual refugee. But it seems as if we're engaged in an exercise of determining who are the deserving poor. We can perhaps debate the criteria for admitting people to the UK and I'd be more liberal than you (because frankly they have far more to lose than we do) but surely we can agree that there is a better way than this.


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## alfajobrob (Aug 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> *Sigh* Of course I realise that not everyone is an actual refugee. But it seems as if we're engaged in an exercise of determining who are the deserving poor. We can perhaps debate the criteria for admitting people to the UK and I'd be more liberal than you (because frankly they have far more to lose than we do) but surely we can agree that there is a better way than this.



Yes we can agree and like I said I would do the same in the situation. Show me a better way?


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## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing,


the fucking swine!


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 1, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???



Personally I'd want to get to the _furthest_, safest place as possible.


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## bluescreen (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Yes we can agree and like I said I would do the same in the situation. Show me a better way?


There are people on here who know far better than me. I know nothing. But going by first principles I'd restore something like the Sangatte reception centre and spend the money on that that's being wasted on fencing and policing (which isn't achieving anything, just pushing the problem further along) so it's properly staffed and serviced. Blunkett abolished it because he and Sarkozy thought it acted as a magnet. IMO a magnet is better than a sewer. (Not that the UK is such a fantastic magnet as we like to delude ourselves, when you look at the figures.) And I'd have a quick immigration process - and a quick bum's rush for the chancers. The traffickers wouldn't like it, so there might be a bit of local difficulty there.

ETA: Yeah, I know, welcome to cloud cuckoo land.


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## alfajobrob (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> the fucking swine!



OK DC what would you do in a sci-fi way?


bluescreen said:


> There are people on here who know far better than me. I know nothing. But going by first principles I'd restore something like the Sangatte reception centre and spend the money on that that's being wasted on fencing and policing (which isn't achieving anything, just pushing the problem further along) so it's properly staffed and serviced. Blunkett abolished it because he and Sarkozy thought it acted as a magnet. IMO a magnet is better than a sewer. (Not that the UK is such a fantastic magnet as we like to delude ourselves, when you look at the figures.) And I'd have a quick immigration process - and a quick bum's rush for the chancers. The traffickers wouldn't like it, so there might be a bit of local difficulty there.
> 
> ETA: Yeah, I know, welcome to cloud cuckoo land.



At least you have some idea...I have none tbh because I am in dental abcess pain yet am scared of the dentist..coward!

Anyway has Jezza offered free dental care?


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## bluescreen (Aug 1, 2015)

Then you shouldn't be on Urban, which is nothing if not heartless towards personal suffering. I've heard tincture of cloves is a thing, also Veganin, if you've got a late night chemist round your way. But get thee to a dentist pronto. They are brilliant these days with pain relief and can do wondrous things. I don't think you should wait for Jezza's paradise.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> OK DC what would you do in a sci-fi way?


you do read my username and understand the second word of it do you not


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> you do read my username and understand the second word of it do you not


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## nino_savatte (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> The fact is the Calais migrants are economic ones


I keep hearing this. How do you know this for certain? You don't. Many of those in Calais will be refugees. You have a right to your opinions but not the facts.


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## 8115 (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm feeling massively uncharitable at this moment in time, but my point is can should we just open the borders...can I go live in Canada\US\Aus\Russia\Ghana etc. etc. on a whim?
> 
> The fact is the Calais migrants are economic ones. I don't blame them and would do same myself but hate the hand wringing. We should take in more asylum seekers but I see a difference between the two.


That fact is bullshit.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Jungle 2 is the new rough camp after the original Jungle was demolished. The original Jungle developed after the Sangatte camp was closed. SpookyFrank knows about this first hand. I only know what I read in the press, heaven help me.
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ening-conditions-calais-jungle-2-migrant-camp



That's a bit disingenuous. There have been many jungles that have come and gone since Sangatte was closed, and there were at least three in Calais that were cleared out earlier this year to force everyone into the new camp. That's the difference between the present jungle and all the previous ones, it's at a site chosen by the French authorities and people have been efectively forced to set up camp there. The last major migrants settlement outside of this new camp, a squatted warehouse near the town centre, was cleared out a few weeks ago in an operation where the police vastly outnumbered the migrants.

When there were several smaller jungles, different ethnic and language groups had some space to themselves and this helped to reduce tensions. I dread to think what the situation is like now with everyone crammed into one place and with nothing being done to reduce the hardships, fears and tensions that lead to outbreaks of violence between migrants.

I had never heard of migrants trying for the tunnel or the lorries in such numbers in broad daylight before recently. Not only are they more likely to get spotted by drivers or security, but the police are only too happy to arrive in numbers and beat them or gas them if they congregate near the roads. A young woman died recently after staggering into the road, blinded by police CS spray.

People who have been in Calais documenting the actions of the police have told me that the police tactics are designed to get migrants run over, often by chasing them with batons and leaving them with nowhere to run but across a busy road. They have been observed waiting for an ideal moment when vehicles are approaching at speed before doing this. At the very least the police in Calais have no concern for preventing deaths. Activists' cameras are so routinely destroyed that we've had to look into the possibility of acquiring a drone to keep watch on the police. Only if they know they're being filmed are they likely to rein in their behaviour.

The worse conditions become, the more obstacles the UK and French governments build to protect the border, the more risks people will take and the more people will die. This is already being borne out by the facts on the ground; the number of migrant fatalities in Calais this year has already surpassed last year's record-breaking total. And still large numbers of British people think they're the victims in all this, because they have to endure the possibility of their holidays being slightly delayed.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> The fact is the Calais migrants are economic ones. I don't blame them and would do same myself but hate the hand wringing. We should take in more asylum seekers but I see a difference between the two.



And your source for this fact is what, if you don't mind my asking?


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Not every asylum seeker is coming from those circumstances...you really are being naïve if you believe that.
> Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing, under the guise of an asylum claim. Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???



Once again you have it backwards. Why would people risk their lives to make these journeys if their lives were not genuinely at risk back home? For many people of course, it is the risk to their families rather than the risk to themselves that forces their hand.

You don't get to tell people where they feel safe and where they don't. What is safe for you may not be safe for someone else.


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## brogdale (Aug 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> And your source for this fact is what, if you don't mind my asking?


From the 'top' 



Spoiler


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## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

The very idea that you can split off economic  from anything else in the current conditions, in all that had resulted from the actions of the powerful over the last decades, is a monstrous lie.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

Yes, I thought that was the kind of 'fact' that gets plucked directly from an arsehole.


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## sihhi (Aug 1, 2015)

There are several thousand migrants in Calais, these are the recent injured/dead in Britain 

*30 July:* A Sudanese woman is found dead in a lorry at Calais.
*29 July:* A 16-year-old Egyptian boy is in a critical condition after being electrocuted while trying to board a Eurostar train in Paris. (_Le Parisien_, 29 July 2015)
*29 July: *A man believed to be Sudanese, aged between 25-30, is knocked over and crushed to death by a lorry leaving a ferry in Calais. (_Guardian_, 29 July 2015; _Independent_, 29 July 2015)
*29 July: *A Pakistani man dies from his injuries after being run over near Calais a day earlier.
*27 July: *Two Sudanese men suffer serious injuries, but survive after being hit by a train near the Channel Tunnel. (_Guardian_, 29 July 2015)
*24 July:* According to campaigners in Calais a young Eritrean woman dies after being sprayed with CS spray by police officers and running into the path of a car on the A16. (Calais Migrant Solidarity press release, 27 July 2015)
*23 July: *The body of teenage boy is found in the loading bay of a Eurotunnel train at Folkestone. (Kent Online, 24 July 2015)
*22 July: *Two unidentified men suffer serious injuries after falling from underneath a lorry on the M20 in Kent where they are found on the hard shoulder of the motorway. (NewsShopper, 22 July 2015)
*19 July: *Houmed Moussa, a 17-year-old Eritrean teenager is found drowned after apparently falling into a 20-foot deep-water basin near the Eurotunnel. (Calais Migrant Solidarity press release, 27 July 2015)
*17 July:* Achrat Mohamad, a 23-year-old Pakistani man dies of burns sustained after being electrocuted by a pylon near the Channel Tunnel a few nights earlier. Two others also suffered serious injuries. (BBC News, 14 July; Calais Migrant Solidarity press release, 27 July 2015)
*7 July:* A man is found dead in the Channel Tunnel. (_Independent_, 7 July 2015)
*4 July: *A 20-year-old Eritrean woman falls from a truck triggering a premature delivery of a stillborn baby at twenty-two weeks. (Calais Migrant Solidarity press release, 27 July 2015)
*29 June:* The body of a 23-year-old Eritrean woman, Zebiba, is found on the A16 near Calais. (Calais Migrant Solidarity press release, 7 July 2015))
*26 June:* A 32-year-old Ethiopian man Getenet Legese Yacob is killed after trying to board a freight train near Coquelles. (_Guardian_, 26 June 2015, Calais Migrant Solidarity press release, 7 July 2015)
How do you judge what is economic and what is political?
In the main they are coming from north eastern Africa - Eritrea's military service (~3 years of unpaid hard labour) is a massive push factor as is the low-intesnity war in the Sudan between government allied forces and SPLM N, government allied forces employ forms of press ganging into service.
Baluchistan, NWFP and FATA in Pakistan are also a source.


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## DownwardDog (Aug 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> T
> 
> When there were several smaller jungles, different ethnic and language groups had some space to themselves and this helped to reduce tensions.



When they make it to the promised land/South London they're going to be cheek by jowl with many different cultures so they better start getting used to living with different ethnic and language groups.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> When they make it to the promised land/South London they're going to be cheek by jowl with many different cultures so they better start getting used to living with different ethnic and language groups.



It's rather more difficult to get along with people when you're constantly tired, hungry and scared. And when people are packed so close together as they are in the jungle it only takes a small number of people to cause a lot of trouble for many others, however blameless they may be.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

sihhi said:


> There are several thousand migrants in Calais, these are the recent injured/dead in Britain
> 
> *30 July:* A Sudanese woman is found dead in a lorry at Calais.
> *29 July:* A 16-year-old Egyptian boy is in a critical condition after being electrocuted while trying to board a Eurostar train in Paris. (_Le Parisien_, 29 July 2015)
> ...



I would be interested to know if the unborn child who died when his mother fell from a lorry was an economic migrant or a 'genuine' refugee according to the standards of people who believe in such categories.

Could you clear this up for us alfajobrob ? I want to know if I should be sad about this child's death or if it was his own fault for wanting better economic prospects.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's rather more difficult to get along with people when you're constantly tired, hungry and scared. And when people are packed so close together as they are in the jungle it only takes a small number of people to cause a lot of trouble for many others, however blameless they may be.



Not to mention the Jungle is overseen by people traffickers, organised by ethnic group, who terrorise other ethnic groups causing a system analogous to the US prison setup - stick with your own for protection.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

Rob Ray said:


> Not to mention the Jungle is overseen by people traffickers, organised by ethnic group, who terrorise other ethnic groups causing a system analogous to the US prison setup - stick with your own for protection.



Yes. It doesn't seem possible for migrants to remain neutral when there's trouble, their side is chosen for them by virtue of their ethnicity iyswim. Just because they don't want to be involved doesn't necessarily mean they won't be a target for some mad bastard's retribution.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm feeling massively uncharitable at this moment in time, but my point is can should we just open the borders...can I go live in Canada\US\Aus\Russia\Ghana etc. etc. on a whim?



Are you white?
If so you could walk into Canada, the US, Australia or Russia pretty easily, and live there as an illegal knowing your skin colour will protect you from a majority of harassment.
The people in the Jungles hardly came here on a whim, either. Most of them made rational choices based on being unable to stay in their homelands.



> The fact is the Calais migrants are economic ones. I don't blame them and would do same myself but hate the hand wringing. We should take in more asylum seekers but I see a difference between the two.


How do you define "economic migrant"? How do you define "asylum seeker"? Take a look at how the govt defines (and re-defines) them, and you should (unless you're dim) notice that a lot of room is left in order to treat asylum seekers as economic migrants. Strange, that.


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## 8ball (Aug 1, 2015)

At this stage I'm half-expecting the eventual "solution" to be some kind of 'Great Wall' similar to efforts on the Us border.

Which will either fail on it's own terms or lead to more years of dithering while people die in the English Channel.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> They are in France already, they are in a "safe space" if that helps your language. Why do you then need to risk your life further unless for economics or preference?



As an example, In parts of modern Sudan and Somalia (the parts that were formerly adornments of the Glorious Empire), English is the 2nd tongue, and the _lingua franca_ for commerce. Add to that the fact of settled Sudanese and Somali communities in parts of the UK for over 100 years, and the reason you "risk your life further" is for your culture - to feel a little bit "at home" even when you're thousands of miles distant from where you were born.
The same points I've applied to Sudan and Somalia are applicable to dozens of other Anglophone states. We don't tend to get many asylum seekers from Cote d'Ivoire or Chad because they're Francophone, and prefer France over the UK even though their material conditions will be worse there.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2015)

8ball said:


> At this stage I'm half-expecting the eventual "solution" to be some kind of 'Great Wall' similar to efforts on the Us border.
> 
> Which will either fail on it's own terms or lead to more years of dithering while people die in the English Channel.



It wouldn't work anyway, because the next logical step regarding people-smuggling is to upscale the current use of boats from France, Belgium and Holland.


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## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> The very idea that you can split off economic from from anything else in the current conditions, in all that had resulted from the actions of the powerful over the last decades, is a monstrous lie.



I was speaking to a lad a few months ago, privately educated and not particularly nice. He was in his second year of studying economics, and seriously told me that economics and politics are totally separate and that was why the FT was such a good paper - because there is no politics in it. I have heard similar from other students on the same course, it seems to be what is being taught which is ironic since a lot of the rest of what is being taught seems to be 'why capitalism is the bestest and much better still than any of the other ways of looking at the economy which we aren't going to teach you about'.


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## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

8ball said:


> At this stage I'm half-expecting the eventual "solution" to be some kind of 'Great Wall' similar to efforts on the Us border.
> 
> Which will either fail on it's own terms or lead to more years of dithering while people die in the English Channel.



I agree with this, and when it is proposed by the Tories the liberals who would mock Farage for suggesting similar will all fall into line and agree that it is a necessary measure to strengthen Fortress Britain.


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## campanula (Aug 1, 2015)

This is surely just the start of an immense diaspora as climate change and resource wars really start to bite. Even now, on a very mundane but nonetheless telling level, I have to wonder where more people are going to live. Housing is an issue which can only mean a class of exploitative landlords looking at influxes of desperate people and thinking how many they can squeeze in every room. I guess my recent brush with the buy to let scenario (a shocking, shoddy business) as well as housing issues on a more personal level, has left me increasingly anxious with no real appreciation of just how much building space is available in the UK (given the insane property bubble, any answers are going to be leveraged in some horrible way)...but I do struggle to find a generosity of spirit when squeezed (and then I obviously feel ashamed as my situation is in no way comparable)...but, being completely honest, I am conflicted on many levels about the whole question of borders.  I also have no real idea about population pressures, amount of space per capita, and so on and so forth - would appreciate more info really.


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## 8ball (Aug 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It wouldn't work anyway, because the next logical step regarding people-smuggling is to upscale the current use of boats from France, Belgium and Holland.



Yeah, then the use of the Navy to patrol the entire coast would be on the cards.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

8ball said:


> Yeah, then the use of the Navy to patrol the entire coast would be on the cards.



That would be both impossible and a colossal waste of money.

So I'm sure it will be government policy by this time next week.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2015)

Even if there was a way to get Calais completely sealed off to anyone without a passport, there's plenty of other ports. And undocumented migrants go through those ports to get into the UK all the time. There's no hysteria about that though, because people don't really notice it. It's only because of the giant shanty town in Calais, itself a result of tightened border controls, that 'illegal' migration has entered the public consciousness. And all the solutions people come up with (David Cameron's latest plan: more fences, more sniffer dogs) are just new ways of making the situation worse.

As for the people who want to 'send the army in' to a refugee camp, they need to stop for a second and consider what they're actually suggesting. Because what they are suggesting would be a war crime, only without even the feeble justification that there's a war on.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 1, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Not every asylum seeker is coming from those circumstances...you really are being naïve if you believe that.
> Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing, under the guise of an asylum claim. Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???
> 
> Of course, if you had family and friends in that place far far away, would/should you not go to them? Or should you just pretend you don't know anyone and have resources used on you that could be used for those genuinely in need?


I just wonder if you were saying the same thing during the Cold War when thousands of asylum seekers crossed from east to west? I fact, asylum seekers/refugees were practically encouraged to risk their lives escaping the Warsaw Pact countries. Just ask Radio Free Europe for more details.


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## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

http://news.sky.com/story/1528716/pay-compensation-for-calais-chaos-harman



> Harriet Harman has written to David Cameron demanding he ask the French for compensation for Britons affected by the chaos at Calais.
> 
> Labour's interim leader says the PM should be doing more to recoup the cost of the crisis to haulage firms.


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## ManchesterBeth (Aug 1, 2015)

nino_savatte said:


> I just wonder if you were saying the same thing during the Cold War when thousands of asylum seekers crossed from east to west? I fact, asylum seekers/refugees were practically encouraged to risk their lives escaping the Warsaw Pact countries. Just ask Radio Free Europe for more details.



Of course not. Rampant anticommunism is and was a different beast. Anything to enforce the mystified moral superiority of Western Europeans is to be encouraged. Just read my tagline for an ironic take on this.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2015)

8ball said:


> Yeah, then the use of the Navy to patrol the entire coast would be on the cards.



Bit hard to mount a full rolling blockade of immigrants when you've only got half a dozen ships and a handful of converted bathtubs in service, and you've nixed your own S & R capacity.


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## 8ball (Aug 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit hard to mount a full rolling blockade of immigrants when you've only got half a dozen ships and a handful of converted bathtubs in service, and you've nixed your own S & R capacity.



Melt down your railings - your Government needs more bathtubs!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Even if there was a way to get Calais completely sealed off to anyone without a passport, there's plenty of other ports. And undocumented migrants go through those ports to get into the UK all the time. There's no hysteria about that though, because people don't really notice it. It's only because of the giant shanty town in Calais, itself a result of tightened border controls, that 'illegal' migration has entered the public consciousness. And all the solutions people come up with (David Cameron's latest plan: more fences, more sniffer dogs) are just new ways of making the situation worse.
> 
> As for the people who want to 'send the army in' to a refugee camp, they need to stop for a second and consider what they're actually suggesting. Because what they are suggesting would be a war crime, only without even the feeble justification that there's a war on.



My dad was aware of trawlermen in the '70s who used to stop off at Hook of Holland, pick up half a dozen Sylheti illegals (who'd usually ended up there via the Cape), and land them on the north Norfolk coast. In the '80s they switched to shipping in bales of spliff. There will be plenty of freebooters on both sides of the Channel who'll rise to any challenge from the state, if there's money to be made.


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## red & green (Aug 1, 2015)

Immigration law in the UK makes it very difficult to come here and join your family members suspect some of those in Calais are attempting to do that - 

since the regime change in Libya there is now no barrier to leaving plus the nationalities of the people in Calais should give an indication of why they fled


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## frogwoman (Aug 1, 2015)

A woman stopped me in the street today saying she was a refugee and had no money for nappies or food. I bought her some stuff from Pret a Manger, feel bad a couldnt have helped her more. 

I suspect we're going to see more and more of this 

Grim


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## red & green (Aug 1, 2015)

Old chant "we here because you there"....


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## treelover (Aug 1, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Not every asylum seeker is coming from those circumstances...you really are being naïve if you believe that.
> Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing, under the guise of an asylum claim. Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???
> 
> Of course, if you had family and friends in that place far far away, would/should you not go to them? Or should you just pretend you don't know anyone and have resources used on you that could be used for those genuinely in need?



What is experience and evidence to open border believers?


campanula said:


> This is surely just the start of an immense diaspora as climate change and resource wars really start to bite. Even now, on a very mundane but nonetheless telling level, I have to wonder where more people are going to live. Housing is an issue which can only mean a class of exploitative landlords looking at influxes of desperate people and thinking how many they can squeeze in every room. I guess my recent brush with the buy to let scenario (a shocking, shoddy business) as well as housing issues on a more personal level, has left me increasingly anxious with no real appreciation of just how much building space is available in the UK (given the insane property bubble, any answers are going to be leveraged in some horrible way)...but I do struggle to find a generosity of spirit when squeezed (and then I obviously feel ashamed as my situation is in no way comparable)...but, being completely honest, I am conflicted on many levels about the whole question of borders.  I also have no real idea about population pressures, amount of space per capita, and so on and so forth - would appreciate more info really.



this is going to happen at a time of massive technological change which is going to reduce the need for unskilled labour, Uber, driverless trucks, more factory automation, there is going to be permanent unemployment/under employment for maybe millions, how can societies sustain those level of immigration?


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## campanula (Aug 1, 2015)

I do think the weird distinction between 'genuine refugees' and 'economic migrants is rubbish though - surely starving, freezing or living hopelessly with no work, no chance, no future is relevant and worthy of fleeing from - is this also not torture? I don't have any hope that solutions will be found as long as the issues remain resolutely local and micro-managed. I honestly can see no easy answers apart from immense structural global change...and what are the chances of any sort of joined up thinking when everything is reduced to short=term damage limitations and vague passing the buck. Camps! Blockades FFS.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 1, 2015)

Yeah but it's very difficult to present merely starving and freezing to death as a problem worthy of aid - after all people do it all the time in Britain. Visceral stories of torture though, sends shivers up the spine - just imagine.


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## likesfish (Aug 2, 2015)

We are going to take £36 week away from familes who have failed assylum thats really going to stop people

The appeals system is fucked up in the  first place so it takes ages to get a hearing and often they get the decision monumentally wrong at the first hearing anyway
 Then we don't deport people who have failed to get assylum in any sort reasonable timeframe  if your going to say you cant stay then you need to get them to leave if we cant or wont do that, we need a better plan than leaving people in a half life situation where they cant be legal but cant stay.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2015)

campanula said:


> I do think the weird distinction between 'genuine refugees' and 'economic migrants is rubbish though - surely starving, freezing or living hopelessly with no work, no chance, no future is relevant and worthy of fleeing from - is this also not torture?



The distinction is a paper one in most cases, manufactured in a bureaucrat's mind, and with little applicability to the nuances of reality.



> I don't have any hope that solutions will be found as long as the issues remain resolutely local and micro-managed. I honestly can see no easy answers apart from immense structural global change...and what are the chances of any sort of joined up thinking when everything is reduced to short=term damage limitations and vague passing the buck. Camps! Blockades FFS.



No chance of "joined-up thinking", because politicians either side of the Channel are too gutless to address issues on anything but an interim basis.


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## andysays (Aug 2, 2015)

Calais migrant crisis: UK and France urge EU action

The action they're urging seems to be tougher measures (from southern European nations, presumably) to prevent migrants crossing the Med from arriving in Europe in the first place, and this is to be complimented by extra security measures around Calais and


> that the long-term solution would be to persuade would-be migrants hoping for a better life in Europe that "our streets are not paved with gold"



Wasn't it just a few months ago that Italy was calling for joint EU action to share the burden of refugees more equitably across all EU nations, and the response then was a resounding "no/non/nein"?

Given that this is a European issue, sooner or later the EU is going to have to deal it with in a coherent way which will have to include some sort of system for claiming asylum in the EU as a whole, and a centralised system of resettlement in specific countries (although this would depend on the co-operation and social responsibility we're still supposed to believe the EU stands for but which we appear to be getting further and further away from).


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## sovereignb (Aug 2, 2015)

likesfish said:


> We are going to take £36 week away from familes who have failed assylum thats really going to stop people
> 
> The appeals system is fucked up in the  first place so it takes ages to get a hearing and often they get the decision monumentally wrong at the first hearing anyway
> Then we don't deport people who have failed to get assylum in any sort reasonable timeframe  if your going to say you cant stay then you need to get them to leave if we cant or wont do that, we need a better plan than leaving people in a half life situation where they cant be legal but cant stay.



This is a huge part of the problem. No one I have worked with has chosen to return after they've exhausted all appeal rights...and there will always be a rogue landlord or boss paying £2 per hour to exploit that fact. The only time people do get picked up is if they get caught illegally working or in the criminal justice system, but then they'll probably appeal again, resorting in deportation or stay on a Human Rights ground.

The system is a clogged up mess.


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## sovereignb (Aug 2, 2015)

campanula said:


> I do think the weird distinction between 'genuine refugees' and 'economic migrants is rubbish though - surely starving, freezing or living hopelessly with no work, no chance, no future is relevant and worthy of fleeing from - is this also not torture? I don't have any hope that solutions will be found as long as the issues remain resolutely local and micro-managed. I honestly can see no easy answers apart from immense structural global change...and what are the chances of any sort of joined up thinking when everything is reduced to short=term damage limitations and vague passing the buck. Camps! Blockades FFS.



An economic migrant isn't necessarily coming from freezing, starving conditions with no prospects. Wanting more than what you have doesn't mean you have nothing. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting more, but are we able to adequately accommodate the wants as opposed to needs?

Ive worked with people where it becomes apparent they have actually come from educated, well to do, wealthy families. Then there are those who choose to exploit and get involved with criminal activity. Of course, there the ones that have come from nothing or  have clearly experienced trauma. I know which group I would rather focus my energy on helping the most.

I think the powers that be actually like things the way they are. For a start, it breeds cheap labour and division amongst the people.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 2, 2015)

This time last week I would have argued for a higher fence, but the more this goes on, the more I think fuck it, just give everyone at Calais citizenship so that they can come here and work. It's the quickest way to relieve the suffering. Never going to happen though.


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## likesfish (Aug 2, 2015)

remember that cyber nations game that had an option with a " who wants to be a citizen reality game" where the border was lined win minefields etc and filmed 24/7 with migrants who survived the death traps winning cash prizes and automatic citizenship.

hopefully none of the grown ups remember that


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## ddraig (Aug 2, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> This time last week I would have argued for a higher fence, but the more this goes on, the more I think fuck it, just give everyone at Calais citizenship so that they can come here and work. It's the quickest way to relieve the suffering. Never going to happen though.


this from the Fleet Street Fox Mirror article



> *1) There are about 5,000 stateless people in Calais *
> And 64.1million people in the UK. That means if we let in every single person who’d currently like us to, the population would explode by 0.000078%.
> 
> That’s not a flood. It’s barely a drip.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/not-migrant-hordes--people-6165167


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## DotCommunist (Aug 2, 2015)

likesfish said:


> remember that cyber nations game that had an option with a " who wants to be a citizen reality game" where the border was lined win minefields etc and filmed 24/7 with migrants who survived the death traps winning cash prizes and automatic citizenship.
> 
> hopefully none of the grown ups remember that


the architect of iran-contra was running an actual 'terrorism market' where people could speculate on the fortunes and fates of various groups (it was shut down upon oversight comitee). These people are a long way past the borders of sanity. Daarpa should be called Derpa


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## DownwardDog (Aug 3, 2015)

ddraig said:


> this from the Fleet Street Fox Mirror article
> 
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/not-migrant-hordes--people-6165167



That's a bullshit point though as it assumes nobody else will turn up after you've dished out UK passports to the first 5,000. If that were the policy (Theresa May stood in a Coquelles bus stop handing out passports) how many people per year do you think would make their way to France to partake of it?


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## free spirit (Aug 3, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> That's a bullshit point though as it assumes nobody else will turn up after you've dished out UK passports to the first 5,000. If that were the policy (Theresa May stood in a Coquelles bus stop handing out passports) how many people per year do you think would make their way to France to partake of it?


dunno, maybe we'd end up taking in as many refugees per capita as say Germany, but fuckloads less than say Turkey.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 3, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> That's a bullshit point though as it assumes nobody else will turn up after you've dished out UK passports to the first 5,000. If that were the policy (Theresa May stood in a Coquelles bus stop handing out passports) how many people per year do you think would make their way to France to partake of it?



Why do the numbers matter? When people are in need of sanctuary they should be given it. The French choosing to drag their feet processing asylum applications, which is in turn leaving thousands of people destitute and desperate to come to the UK. We should act like a civilised people and grant the migrants the right to live and work here.


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## weltweit (Aug 3, 2015)

Not a friendly country. Now the tories are enacting legislation forcing UK landlords to evict people who are in the UK illegally which will only serve to put them on the streets rather than sending them back where they came from.

And there are a few thousand people in Calais wanting to come to the UK, many of whom should probably be granted the right to stay but rather than assessing them in Calais and progressing their applications we are instead engaged in building more fences to keep them in France while our road hauliers are seeing their businesses stagnate and holidaymakers and the people of Kent are suffering massive disruption.

And this is taking place while France, Germany and Italy all take vastly more African incomers than the UK does and they don't seem to be complaining about it. Indeed even Sweden seems to take its share of African migrants in better humour than Britain does.

Migration from Africa to Europe is not going to go away, indeed it may be the sustained issue of the next 100 years.

Should Britain under the tories perhaps, after evicting them from their homes, make them live in a ghetto, and perhaps force them to sew identification markets onto their coats?


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> this will end in tears, mark my words



There are already tears aplenty, but I share your fears that this situation will come to a head with some Lampedusa-esque catastrophe. At that point the national consciousness, if there is such a thing, will know that we had every opportunity to resolve the situation years ago, that every possible warning was given. Rather than a sudden outpouring of sympathy and humanity, I suspect the result would be another lurch in the direction of reactionary madness.

People will not thank the migrants for bringing the consequences of their own selfishness into such clear focus, they will be angry that the contradictions at the heart of our inclusive, aspirational society have been laid bare. Already we see how most people are not angry about the conditions people are facing in Calais but at the fact _they have to look at it as they drive past. _Taking responsibility is not an option, we learn that from our politicians, and just like with so many other things our collective efforts will be directed at hiding or silencing victims rather than seeking justice and the prevention of any future crimes.


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## brogdale (Aug 3, 2015)

Welcome to the Croydon 'jungle'. 

The vermin's "response" is to privatise citizenship checks and open the door to a (pre 1957 Rent Act) situation of instant evictions without court order. All spun as protection for these vulnerable people from the "minority" of rogue landlords.


> Clark said: “We are determined to crack down on rogue landlords who make money out of illegal immigration – exploiting vulnerable people and undermining our immigration system. In future, landlords will be required to ensure that the people they rent their properties to are legally entitled to be in the country. We will also require them to meet their basic responsibilities as landlords, cracking down on those who rent out dangerous, dirty and overcrowded properties.”


As venal as they are incompetent.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

'Slum landlords currently occupying seats in the House of Commons or House of Lords will be exempt from these enforcement measures, so as to avoid any conflict of interests'


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## sovereignb (Aug 3, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> This time last week I would have argued for a higher fence, but the more this goes on, the more I think fuck it, just give everyone at Calais citizenship so that they can come here and work. It's the quickest way to relieve the suffering. Never going to happen though.



Wouldnt that just encourage more people to travel in life threatening  ways to get here? That surely wouldn't be the end of the fiasco.
And what kind of housing would they get once here?


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## Dan U (Aug 3, 2015)

Drove past the camp yesterday, as you drive to the ferry port it is just a fortress for a few kms and behind it, just a stones throw tbh is a very bleak sight to behold. 

I admit to feeling confused about the whole thing previously but when you see the squalor desperate people are living in and what they are putting themselves through night after night just to get to this sodding country well, I dunno. I feel pretty convinced those who are headbanging about it should get on a boat and go see for themselves and if they still lack empathy they are worthless shits


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## weltweit (Aug 3, 2015)

> in 2013, according to the latest Eurostat figures, by far the largest number of asylum applications was in *Germany*, 126,705. *France* took on 64,760 and *Sweden* 54,270, with *Britain* a distant fourth on 29,875. - 10 Jan 2015


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...ts-policy-on-asylum-seekers-is-the-worst.html

Even Sweden takes nearly double the number of asylum seekers than the UK!


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## bluescreen (Aug 3, 2015)

weltweit said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...ts-policy-on-asylum-seekers-is-the-worst.html
> Even Sweden takes nearly double the number of asylum seekers than the UK!


With a sixth the population of the UK.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

weltweit said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...ts-policy-on-asylum-seekers-is-the-worst.html
> 
> Even Sweden takes nearly double the number of asylum seekers than the UK!



That's the numbers of applications though. Not all are successful. France rejects more applications than the UK does, as a precentage of the total number. Even so, France still grants asylum to more people in absolute terms I believe. But in the UK asylum seekers have access to a basic level of state support, in France there is much less support so if you don't have the resources to support yourself for the months or years a claim can take to be processed then you're in trouble. And if you're on any kind of government database elsewhere in the Schengen area (most of western Europe) your claim will most likely be thrown out straight away and you may get put in detention or deported back to your point of entry to the EU.

The whole thing is a tangled fucking mess, especially when you see it at a European level. We've had some basic training about what to tell people who ask us about claiming asylum in the UK but if I'm asked about the process in France or Belgium and the chances of success there I have to hold my hands up and say I really don't know. All I've heard is anecdotes from people who have tried their luck in Germany, France or Belgium already. Most of the stories seem to involve being beaten by police, or attacked by dogs or whatever. The jungles in Calais are grim, the worst places I've seen in my life. The crossing to England is difficult and dangerous and everyone knows that people die trying. People wouldn't be doing this if there were better options for them.

I believe there are similar migrant shanty towns in Copenhagen, presumably filled with people hoping to get Sweden as Denmark is a pretty dreadful place to be a non-white migrant by all accounts. So even if you choose to head for Sweden instead of the UK, still you've got the problem of getting there in the first place.


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## weltweit (Aug 3, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's the numbers of applications though. Not all are successful. France rejects more applications than the UK does, as a precentage of the total number. Even so, France still grants asylum to more people in absolute terms I believe. But in the UK asylum seekers have access to a basic level of state support, in France there is much less support so if you don't have the resources to support yourself for the months or years a claim can take to be processed then you're in trouble. And if you're on any kind of government database elsewhere in the Schengen area (most of western Europe) your claim will most likely be thrown out straight away and you may get put in detention or deported back to your point of entry to the EU.
> 
> The whole thing is a tangled fucking mess, especially when you see it at a European level. We've had some basic training about what to tell people who ask us about claiming asylum in the UK but if I'm asked about the process in France or Belgium and the chances of success there I have to hold my hands up and say I really don't know. All I've heard is anecdotes from people who have tried their luck in Germany, France or Belgium already. Most of the stories seem to involve being beaten by police, or attacked by dogs or whatever. The jungles in Calais are grim, the worst places I've seen in my life. The crossing to England is difficult and dangerous and everyone knows that people die trying. People wouldn't be doing this if there were better options for them.
> 
> I believe there are similar migrant shanty towns in Copenhagen, presumably filled with people hoping to get Sweden as Denmark is a pretty dreadful place to be a non-white migrant by all accounts. So even if you choose to head for Sweden instead of the UK, still you've got the problem of getting there in the first place.



There probably needs to be an EU solution to this issue, leaving it to member states doesn't seem to be solving it. Would you agree with that SpookyFrank?


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

weltweit said:


> There probably needs to be an EU solution to this issue, leaving it to member states doesn't seem to be solving it. Would you agree with that SpookyFrank?



Yes I would agree with that. But with European politics currently dominated by the centre right and lots of anti-migrant populism, it would be politicial suicide for any national leader to be seen supporting the idea of a unified migration and asylum policy which would result in their country being obliged to take in more asylum seekers. And unless Merkel is on board, it won't happen. Merkel is not on board, nor Cameron nor Hollande. 

Cameron and pals are telling France to do something about the people in Calais. He doesn't mean they should look after them he means, 'make them go away, we don't care how'. Nobody is treating this as a humanitarian problem, because nobody is treating the people involved as humans. We all know how that usually ends up.


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## bluescreen (Aug 3, 2015)

What is your organisation, SpookyFrank? Does it accept donations?


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## bluescreen (Aug 3, 2015)

I forget, it's probably breach of forum rules or something, so please pm me if so.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 3, 2015)

sovereignb said:


> Wouldnt that just encourage more people to travel in life threatening  ways to get here? That surely wouldn't be the end of the fiasco.
> And what kind of housing would they get once here?



They don't need encouragement because the migration crisis is driven by war and poverty abroad. Describe to me the scenario in which it would be preferable to stay in Syria or Eritrea rather than risk your life to come to Europe. You'd have to make this country as bad as or worse than either of those two places to slow the rate of migration. In short, they will come regardless of how badly we treat them because whatever it is we do, we will never be as bad as what they've come from.

As for housing, we need to build more of them. It's really that simple. We managed to do it under much tighter financial constraints in the post-WW2 era, and we can do the same again if our politicians had the will. Prefabs can be thrown up practically over night if necessary.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> What is your organisation, SpookyFrank? Does it accept donations?



I will chat to you about this via PM if you don't mind.


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## red & green (Aug 3, 2015)

If they had their fingerprints taken in a Euro country they will show up on the Eurodac computer therefore they will be sent back to the country where their fingerprints were taken if they get to England - Dublin Convention


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## kebabking (Aug 3, 2015)

red & green said:


> If they had their fingerprints taken in a Euro country they will show up on the Eurodac computer therefore they will be sent back to the country where their fingerprints were taken if they get to England - Dublin Convention



which is why the Italians choose not to record the identities of those who arrive on their shores. they know those people won't choose to stay in Italy and are intending to get to the UK, or Germany, or Scandanavia, so they allow them to go unrecorded safe in the knowledge that if/when they are detained in France or wherever, no record of them having first arrived in Italy will exist, and therefore they won't be returned to Italy, as as far as the law is concerned, they have magically appeared in some other EU state.

its pass-the-parcel, but nobody wants to be holding the parcel when the music stops - the music stopping in this case being that when their details are first entered onto the EuroDac database, they become the problem of the country entering their details.

one of the R4 PM reporters did a good week-long report on following a group of migrants from southern Italy to Calais, one of the most interesting things about their experience was that despite fallingto in the hands of various police agencies at a number of points during their journey, none of those different police agencies seemed at all keen on recording their details. remarkable...


----------



## red & green (Aug 3, 2015)

The Italians are fingerprinting those coming off the boats if they take them to detention centres


----------



## kebabking (Aug 3, 2015)

red & green said:


> The Italians are fingerprinting those coming off the boats if they take them to detention centres



be interesting to know that proportion of those who come into contact with the Italian authorities are placed in detention centres...


----------



## red & green (Aug 3, 2015)

FYI

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2015/may/gdp-med-asylum-detention-backgrounder.pdf


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

kebabking said:


> one of the R4 PM reporters did a good week-long report on following a group of migrants from southern Italy to Calais, one of the most interesting things about their experience was that despite fallingto in the hands of various police agencies at a number of points during their journey, none of those different police agencies seemed at all keen on recording their details. remarkable...



It's not unheard of for migrants to find their way from the care of the local police force directly into the care of some friendly people traffickers without passing go as it were. The officers involved presumably receive a modest referral fee for aiding the traffickers in their humanitarian endeavours.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2015)

red & green said:


> FYI
> 
> http://www.statewatch.org/news/2015/may/gdp-med-asylum-detention-backgrounder.pdf



Thanks for that, very useful.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I would be interested to know if the unborn child who died when his mother fell from a lorry was an economic migrant or a 'genuine' refugee according to the standards of people who believe in such categories.
> 
> Could you clear this up for us alfajobrob ? I want to know if I should be sad about this child's death or if it was his own fault for wanting better economic prospects.



Of course it's sad and you are entitled to feel upset. 




8115 said:


> That fact is bullshit.



Really.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I would be interested to know if the unborn child who died when his mother fell from a lorry was an economic migrant or a 'genuine' refugee according to the standards of people who believe in such categories.
> 
> Could you clear this up for us alfajobrob ? I want to know if I should be sad about this child's death or if it was his own fault for wanting better economic prospects.



Emotive language much?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you white?
> If so you could walk into Canada, the US, Australia or Russia pretty easily, and live there as an illegal knowing your skin colour will protect you from a majority of harassment.
> The people in the Jungles hardly came here on a whim, either. Most of them made rational choices based on being unable to stay in their homelands.
> 
> ...



I define an economic migrant as a person that has moved to a specific country passing through other countries that offer asylum and help. They have had the offer of help but they decide to move somewhere else. They can be both asylum seekers or refugees but they could of stopped 1000 miles ago so that makes it an economic or preferential choice.

I am white, male, english and yet funnily enough don't feel any guilt....maybe because I'm not from a posh wanker background

I am aware that Britain has spread English as a language throughout the world...I don't think that makes the modern day UK and people culpable for the worlds ills.

People go on about Sweden accepting migrants etc....has anyone been there recently....It's still like spot the African, Migrant, it's all white.....nothing like the UK and much more racist.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

Jews should of stopped at France when fleeing Hitler. Right?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> As an example, In parts of modern Sudan and Somalia (the parts that were formerly adornments of the Glorious Empire), English is the 2nd tongue, and the _lingua franca_ for commerce. Add to that the fact of settled Sudanese and Somali communities in parts of the UK for over 100 years, and the reason you "risk your life further" is for your culture - to feel a little bit "at home" even when you're thousands of miles distant from where you were born.
> The same points I've applied to Sudan and Somalia are applicable to dozens of other Anglophone states. We don't tend to get many asylum seekers from Cote d'Ivoire or Chad because they're Francophone, and prefer France over the UK even though their material conditions will be worse there.



Whatever...still economic migrants....shall we offer all Sudanese and Somalian's passports due to your ethical notions of speaking Anglais?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Jews should of stopped at France when fleeing Hitler. Right?



Wanker...another emotional idiot.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Wanker...another emotional idiot.



You have a problem with emotion, don't you? Is this something you want to talk about?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Jews should of stopped at France when fleeing Hitler. Right?



I can't be bothered with this tbh...I'm trying to be rational without all this hyperbole. OK yes I'm a fucking nazi and I hate all jews, disblesa, gypsies and blacks and I've been trying to convert you all for years.....you cunt!


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You have a problem with emotion, don't you? Is this something you want to talk about?



Just shit that people spin.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I can't be bothered with this tbh...I'm trying to be rational without all this hyperbole. OK yes I'm a fucking nazi and I hate all jews, disblesa, gypsies and blacks and I've been trying to convert you all for years.....you cunt!



I didn't call you a Nazi. If you're too thick to understand point I was making then there's no help for you.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I didn't call you a Nazi. If you're too thick to understand point I was making then there's no help for you.



No - you didn't call me a Nazi. It's just been insinuated and I DO take offence


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> No - you didn't call me a Nazi. It's just been insinuated and I DO take offence



Nope, didn't insinuate it either. The point was that Jewish people fleeing the Nazis did not magically cease to be refugees once they had passed through France. Which is exactly the conclusion we would have to come to if we were to apply to them the same logic as you are applying to the migrants at Calais. Is that clear enough?


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob Are you suggesting that people stop being refugees and become economic migrants just because they have travelled away from the first 'safe' country they set foot in? That may be arguable if you're a government lawyer trying to evade responsibility but it's moral equivocation. You have seen explanations of why people don't get registered on first entry. Everyone tries to evade responsibility.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Nope, didn't insinuate it either. The point was that Jewish people fleeing the Nazis did not magically cease to be refugees once they had passed through France. Which is exactly the conclusion we would have to come to if we were to apply to them the same logic as you are applying to the migrants at Calais. Is that clear enough?



Is there a massive diaspora fleeing persecution on a NAZI scale, basis, europe....NO....then you are talking shit!


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> alfajobrob Are you suggesting that people stop being refugees and become economic migrants just because they have travelled away from the first 'safe' country they set foot in? That may be arguable if you're a government lawyer trying to evade responsibility but it's moral equivocation. You have seen explanations of why people don't get registered on first entry. Everyone tries to evade responsibility.



Yes - I am in a way. Thank you for understanding my first point. It's not a popular one but in no way racist.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's not unheard of for migrants to find their way from the care of the local police force directly into the care of some friendly people traffickers without passing go as it were. The officers involved presumably receive a modest referral fee for aiding the traffickers in their humanitarian endeavours.



Is this in Europe?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Is there a massive diaspora fleeing persecution on a NAZI scale....NO....then you are talking shit!



Ever heard of ISIS? Boko Haram? Ever been to Eritrea, or tried being a Christian in Iran? For an an individual fleeing from such situations, the pain is just as real as the pain of those that faced Nazi persecution. Think on a human scale. Put yourself in their shoes.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 4, 2015)

If they leave home as refugees, those people should still be treated as refugees. And as for the others, whatever the merits of their individual case, all people should still be treated more decently than they are at present.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Ever heard of ISIS? Boko Haram? Ever been to Eritrea, or tried being a Christian in Iran? For an an individual fleeing from such situations, the pain is just as real as the pain of those that faced Nazi persecution. Think on a human scale. Put yourself in their shoes.



Then goto Italy, France, Spain, Luxembourg ie the first countries they have to pass. I'm sure they haven't got the Catholic church hangups they had a few centuries ago...why UK if not for preference?

I've actually been to Nigeria, Northern Ghana, Togo etc.

ISIS, Boko Haram etc. I'm sure a small percentage could chat to the anti terror officers. Why are we responsible for Eritrea unless we sent Blair there...if we did all refugees welcome. More so the Rwandans. Where does it stop or start?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Nope, didn't insinuate it either. The point was that Jewish people fleeing the Nazis did not magically cease to be refugees once they had passed through France. Which is exactly the conclusion we would have to come to if we were to apply to them the same logic as you are applying to the migrants at Calais. Is that clear enough?



Of course it is Gruppenfuurher you fucking nazi prick


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Then goto Italy, France, Spain, Luxembourg ie the first countries they have to pass.



As already mentioned on this thread, there are many reasons why someone would keep on travelling once they have reached Europe. The English language being a major draw. Availability of Jobs is another. Family connections yet another. Then there is the fact that France has a notoriously slow asylum processing system, with people being left for months on end with no right to work, no financial support, and no security of knowing when the limbo they are left in will end.

As bluescreen just said, if they left home as refugees then they should be treated as refugees wherever they end up. Just as Jewish people should have been treated as refugees once they had passed through the nearest 'safe' country to get away from Hitler. I mention this, not for emotional effect, but because many Jews were in fact denied entry by Britain in the years leading up to WW2. Many of the same arguments against granting them refuge are exactly the same arguments being put forward today against the Calais migrants.



> I'm sure they haven't got the Catholic church hangups they had a few centuries ago...why UK if not for preference?



I don't know what you mean by this, sorry.



> ISIS, Boko Haram etc. I'm sure a small percentage could chat to the anti terror officers.



I don't know what you mean by this either.



> Why are we responsible for Eritrea unless we sent Blair there...if we did all refugees welcome. More so the Rwandans.



There are many things we are not responsible for. This doesn't make the reality of needy people disappear, and it doesn't diminish our responsibility to each other as human beings.



> Where does it stop or start?



It has no theoretical limit, and we should help all those that need it. The fact is, however, that the number of asylum applications is tiny compared to economic migration via the EU. There were 25,000 asylum applications in the year ending March 2015, compared to a net EU migration figure of 318,000. The idea that we are somehow 'swamped' is just fanciful.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> alfajobrob Are you suggesting that people stop being refugees and become economic migrants just because they have travelled away from the first 'safe' country they set foot in? That may be arguable if you're a government lawyer trying to evade responsibility but it's moral equivocation. You have seen explanations of why people don't get registered on first entry. Everyone tries to evade responsibility.



Gah..it's just difficult. I do see a difference with political asylum seekers and monetary ones.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't give a shit about the english language argument for a start otherwise we would take in a fifth of the world.

All countries we could have sorted a bit better mind and I would give a few afghan, iranian, sri lankans passports out. the rest nah.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I don't give a shit about the english language argument for a start otherwise we would take in a fifth of the world.
> 
> All countries we could have sorted a bit better mind and I would give a few afghan, iranian, sri lankans passports out. the rest nah.



A fifth of the world aren't claiming asylum though; 25,000 people are. "The rest nah"? That's it? Really?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> As already mentioned on this thread, there are many reasons why someone would keep on travelling once they have reached Europe. The English language being a major draw. Availability of Jobs is another. Family connections yet another. Then there is the fact that France has a notoriously slow asylum processing system, with people being left for months on end with no right to work, no financial support, and no security of knowing when the limbo they are left in will end.
> 
> As bluescreen just said, if they left home as refugees then they should be treated as refugees wherever they end up. Just as Jewish people should have been treated as refugees once they had passed through the nearest 'safe' country to get away from Hitler. I mention this, not for emotional effect, but because many Jews were in fact denied entry by Britain in the years leading up to WW2. Many of the same arguments against granting them refuge are exactly the same arguments being put forward today against the Calais migrants.
> 
> ...



Thats interesting you are equating "asylum" stats and I said we should take more.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

Embarrassingly covering yourself in shit as you leave. A fitting end to the night.

eta: I see you edited that mess of a post to make a completely different point. That's interesting.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

Bless you cynicaleconomy..I'm sure you are as generous with all the money you don't have. I bet you have never bought a proper round in your little life.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Bless you cynicaleconomy..I'm sure you are as generous with all the money you don't have. I bet you have never bought a proper round in your little life.



Just go to bed mate.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Just go to bed mate.



I thought you wanted to fight?

A pathetic internet one at that.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> A fifth of the world aren't claiming asylum though; 25,000 people are. "The rest nah"? That's it? Really?



Those countries should have beneficial terms I meant with the recent history and also system of immigration that is separate from asylum claims?

Is that too difficult to understand or just racist, xenophobic?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Those countries should have beneficial terms I meant with the recent history and also system of immigration that is separate from asylum claims?
> 
> Is that too difficult to understand or just racist, xenophobic?



I've never called you racist or xenophobic. The whole thread is about asylum. That's the point.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I define an economic migrant as a person that has moved to a specific country passing through other countries that offer asylum and help. They have had the offer of help but they decide to move somewhere else. They can be both asylum seekers or refugees but they could of stopped 1000 miles ago so that makes it an economic or preferential choice.



Would you stop in a country that has a shit-poor record with regard to racism?



> I am white, male, english and yet funnily enough don't feel any guilt....maybe because I'm not from a posh wanker background



I don't feel guilt. I feel compassion, same as I do for homeless people, and people being mistreated. Projecting liberal guilt on people is pathetic, and you're getting desperate if you're trying to imply that I'm "posh". I'm working-class and dirt-poor. 



> I am aware that Britain has spread English as a language throughout the world...I don't think that makes the modern day UK and people culpable for the worlds ills.



I haven't claimed it does. Why not address my arguments, not the ones you've read on the net?



> People go on about Sweden accepting migrants etc....has anyone been there recently....It's still like spot the African, Migrant, it's all white.....nothing like the UK and much more racist.



 If you don't understand how full of anus-dribblings that last sentence is, you're beyond help.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I've never called you racist or xenophobic. The whole thread is about asylum. That's the point.



It's all about the definition

For me "asylum" would be anywhere I'm not getting shafted immediately and is safe. For most of you you it's the country of choice to live in with language, culture?

"Refugee" is another one you can be a refugee from a country and yet not be an asylum seeker and this or that, or you can be both either or a third term as a migrant which is massively loaded at the moment as well. 

I've always said if I was from WA etc I would be here now so I don't blame people and I'm not a proper bastard in real life* 



*lie


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Whatever...still economic migrants....shall we offer all Sudanese and Somalian's passports due to your ethical notions of speaking Anglais?



Are you deliberately obtuse, or naturally thick?
I haven't said "offer all Sudanese and Somalians passports". I haven't even argued for open borders. I said that the reason they might head here is because they're Anglophone.
Don't put words in my mouth,there's a good fuckwit.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Would you stop in a country that has a shit-poor record with regard to racism?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The last sentence about Sweden was true tbh.

The rest I do have worries about and pretty much agree. I'm just in a bad mood is all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> alfajobrob Are you suggesting that people stop being refugees and become economic migrants just because they have travelled away from the first 'safe' country they set foot in? That may be arguable if you're a government lawyer trying to evade responsibility but it's moral equivocation. You have seen explanations of why people don't get registered on first entry. Everyone tries to evade responsibility.



Same argument both Labour and the Coalition used, and that the Tories are now using, regardless of the "first safe country" having been shown to contribute to racism, rightism and racist violence in European states as varied as Greece and France (as documented by HRW, SOS Racisme and others). Murders of "asylum seekers" in Germany, in Belgium, in Greece, in Spain, in Italy etc etc etc.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you deliberately obtuse, or naturally thick?
> I haven't said "offer all Sudanese and Somalians passports". I haven't even argued for open borders. I said that the reason they might head here is because they're Anglophone.
> Don't put words in my mouth,there's a good fuckwit.



I was about to deliver a line of amazing abuse and then I thought...it's fucking 3am..and i need to be up in 4hrs

lol


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Same argument both Labour and the Coalition used, and that the Tories are now using, regardless of the "first safe country" having been shown to contribute to racism, rightism and racist violence in European states as varied as Greece and France (as documented by HRW, SOS Racisme and others). Murders of "asylum seekers" in Germany, in Belgium, in Greece, in Spain, in Italy etc etc etc.



I'm not that bad!

I don't advocate any shit apart from love personally.

I'm quite a reasonable chap tbh...just need an argument occasioanlly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I was about to deliver a line of amazing abuse and then I thought...it's fucking 3am..and i need to be up in 4hrs
> 
> lol



You've saved yourself from looking like an even bigger cunt then, because your abuse wouldn't have been amazing. It would have been as badly constructed as your arguments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm not that bad!
> 
> I don't advocate any shit apart from love personally.
> 
> I'm quite a reasonable chap tbh...just need an argument occasioanlly.



Then why not make your argument well-informed,rather than reading like sub-tabloid loo lacquer?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You've saved yourself from looking like an even bigger cunt then, because your abuse wouldn't have been amazing. It would have been as badly constructed as your arguments.



Fuck you mouthing fucking fuvcwitk fuck!

See!!!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> ...just need an argument occasioanlly.



So this whole display was just for shits n giggles. Nice.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> So this whole display was just for shits n giggles. Nice.



No..I still maintain what I said about the definition above. I was attempting to be nice to VP

Go fuck yourself.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then why not make your argument well-informed,rather than reading like sub-tabloid loo lacquer?



I have no idea tbh...my brothers would be ashamed of me.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Why are we responsible for Eritrea unless we sent Blair there


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eritrea#British_administration_and_federalisation

two seconds googling you ignorant fucking cunt


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Is this in Europe?



Crooked cops in Europe, yeah I was surprised too


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eritrea#British_administration_and_federalisation
> 
> two seconds googling you ignorant fucking cunt



slightly less ignorant cunt after reading that....still don't see your point though...60+ years on and not being responsible myself like.


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> slightly less ignorant cunt after reading that....still don't see your point though...60+ years on and not being responsible myself like.



Does it really need pointing out that "we" are responsible for all refugees, whatever country they originally come from?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 4, 2015)

No - it doesn't need pointing out that the entire world is responsible for the shit situation.  I just want people to get rid of the the emotive language. I'm beginning to feel like the second coming of Hitler.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> No - it doesn't need pointing out that the entire world is responsible for the shit situation.  I just want people to get rid of the the emotive language. I'm beginning to feel like the second coming of Hitler.



You give yourself too much credit mate. None of this is about you. You're being called out for posting ill-informed rubbish and outright lies on a thread about something that actually matters. Nobody is calling you Hitler. 

If the worst thing that happens to you today is that some people call you an idiot when you act like an idiot then you are a fortunate soul indeed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 4, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> slightly less ignorant cunt after reading that....still don't see your point though...60+ years on and not being responsible myself like.


well the point is that the british empire was still very much extant after the second world war, fatally wounded but it limped on for a bit. It would useful to make a thread about places the empire didn't fuck over. And still today, we have had our state fuck the middle east right up. So I think its a bit rich to start moaning when people want to come wsomewhere that if not brilliant is better than airstrikes or sectarian violence


----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

Not usually one for memes but...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Not usually one for memes but...


how come austria gets 1 but hungary doesn't?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how come austria gets 1 but hungary doesn't?



I assume


----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

If we were being _really_ pedantic we could also complain about the fact that the image didn't include 4 on top of Malta


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 4, 2015)

Tbh its not beyond the realms of possibility that 'core' capitalist countries will one day be in the same position, much of western europe is not as stable as it looks never mind parts of the US. Makes me sick how many people in comfortable middle class circumstances are whining about this, and using unemployed british people as a shield who they dont give a shit about either.

Moldova has taken over 3000 refugees, that's more than the UK and the country can barely look after itself.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Tbh its not beyond the realms of possibility that 'core' capitalist countries will one day be in the same position, much of western europe is not as stable as it looks never mind parts of the US. Makes me sick how many people in comfortable middle class circumstances are whining about this, and using unemployed british people as a shield who they dont give a shit about either.
> 
> Moldova has taken over 3000 refugees, that's more than the UK and the country can barely look after itself.



Amazing how many people, depending on the day or hour of the day, regurgitate one of two thought terminating clichés 1) the working-class are feckless and lazy which is why they aren't willing to pick potatoes for minimum wage or less unlike those industrious foreigners 2) that horrible 'swarm' of foreigners is undermining our plucky indigenous working-class and we would have full employment if not for the 'swarm'.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 4, 2015)

I find it hard to give a shit about peoples summer holidays being ruined either especially when these middle england middle class, buy to let etc tossers, bear a large responsibility for why the country is so fucked in the first place.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Amazing how many people, depending on the day or hour of the day, regurgitate one of two thought terminating clichés 1) the working-class are feckless and lazy which is why they aren't willing to pick potatoes for minimum wage or less unlike those industrious foreigners 2) that horrible 'swarm' of foreigners is undermining our plucky indigenous working-class and we would have full employment if not for the 'swarm'.



Or both at the same time. 

'Oh but what about all the british people on the dole who i dont give a shit about either'


----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Or both at the same time.
> 
> 'Oh but what about all the british people on the dole who i dont give a shit about either'



Yes you would think that they would be positions you couldn't hold at the same time but strangely enough that isn't the case.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

On the subject of poorer countries taking in more refugees than the wealthy countries of Western Europe 



> In 2014, Turkey also witnessed an unprecedented increase in asylum applications from Afghans, Iraqis and Iranians. Deteriorating security in Iraq saw a sudden increase in Iraqi refugees: an estimated 81,000 were in Turkey by September 2014, with numbers expected to grow to 100,000 by year-end.
> The number of refugees and asylum-seekers in Turkey in 2015 is expected to rise to nearly 1.9 million, including 1.7 million Syrian refugees. UNHCR will continue to work closely with the Government of Turkey to support protection measures and facilitate access to public services and assistance available to both Syrian urban refugees and non-Syrian people of concern.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 4, 2015)

I mean a few decades ago we had a separatist insurgency in Northern Ireland and a military style regime imposed on the people there, and 'our own' side committing terrorist attacks on catholic locals. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this could start again especially as the cuts have fallen disproportionate on that region and according to some circles threatened the ceasefire. In addition to which now we have a very large minority, perhaps a majority in Scotland in favour of independence from England plus huge tension along class, regional and ethnic lines within british society. You think that whats happened to eg Greece could never happen here, or that people in britain could never try to escape desperately in flimsy boats? Well think again...


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Yes you would think that they would be positions you couldn't hold at the same time but strangely enough that isn't the case.



Yeah, funny that. 

Funny how they never look at their own responsibility in the situation either. 

All those homeless people in the town centre...hmm i wonder how that happened?


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2015)

andysays said:


> Does it really need pointing out that "we" are responsible for all refugees, whatever country they originally come from?



Just to explain this post further, what I mean is primarily that we all have a responsibility to provide assistance to all refugees, whatever country they originally come from, and whatever the cause of them being refugees.

At the moment, as far as I'm aware, Britain does significantly less than many other European countries (to say nothing of countries closer to areas where large numbers of refugees come from), and Cameron etc would like us to pull the shutters down or the drawbridge up so we do even less.

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, it would make sense for Europe to have some sort of co-ordinated system for helping those refugees who do arrive here, so that people can claim asylum anywhere in the EU and be resettled in a way which attempts to match their links to particular countries with sharing the numbers equitably around the various host countries.

We could go even further to a position where countries, like Britain unfortunately, who have the greatest responsibility for causing the problems which lead people to be refugees, take the greatest responsibility for accepting, resettling and helping them, but we're so far away from that situation at the moment that I fear that's simply pie in the sky.


----------



## trabuquera (Aug 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


>


 


Try this one for size: quiz asking you to name the countries NOT invaded by Britain. It is a short, short list....

http://www.sporcle.com/games/RobPro/countries-not-invaded-by-britain-map


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't think this chart has been on here before, showing how the UK compares with other EU countries in accepting asylum claims. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




FFS, Luxembourg accepted more last year than we did. 

Image from Press Association tweet.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Not usually one for memes but...



How come Rome only gets 7?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 4, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> I don't think this chart has been on here before, showing how the UK compares with other EU countries in accepting asylum claims.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hungary is a disgrace.


----------



## andysays (Aug 5, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> I don't think this chart has been on here before, showing how the UK compares with other EU countries in accepting asylum claims.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Worth pointing out that those are numbers per million population, not absolute numbers. 

They're also just the top 15, ordered by number who have claimed asylum not by number accepted. There are other EU countries not on that list because they have proportionally fewer claiming asylum, for whatever reason.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> Try this one for size: quiz asking you to name the countries NOT invaded by Britain. It is a short, short list....
> 
> http://www.sporcle.com/games/RobPro/countries-not-invaded-by-britain-map



Finland?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2015)

Worthy of consideration; Hardt & Negri's ["Empire" 2000 (p213)] take on the old "push-pull" theory of migration...


> Today the mobility of labor power and migratory movements is extraordinarily diffuse and difficult to grasp. Even the most significant population movements of modernity (including the black and white Atlantic migrations) constitute lilliputian events with respect to the enormous population transfers of our times. *A specter haunts the world and it is the specter of migration*. All the powers of the old world are allied in a merciless operation against it, but *the movement is irresistible*. Along with the flight from the so called Third World there are flows of political refugees and transfers of intellectual labor power, in addition to the massive movements of the agricultural, manufacturing, and service proletariat. *The legal and documented movements are dwarfed by clandestine migrations: the borders of national sovereignty are sieves, and every attempt at complete regulation runs up against violent pressure. *Economists attempt to explain this phenomenon by presenting their equations and models, which even if they were complete would not explain that irrepressible desire for free movement. In effect, *what pushes from behind is, negatively, desertion from the miserable cultural and material conditions of imperial reproduction*; but positively, *what pulls forward is the wealth of desire and the accumulation of expressive and productive capacities that the processes ofglobalization have determined in the consciousness of every individual and social group—and thus a certain hope. Desertion and exodus are a powerful form of class struggle within and against imperial postmodernity.* This mobility, however, still constitutes a spontaneous level ofstruggle, and, as we noted earlier, it most often leads today to a new rootless condition of poverty and misery.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 5, 2015)

This was in the Mail:


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Hungary is a disgrace.



Their current leader is an overt racist. Odd considering their country is named after the Huns, a bunch of nomads from central Asia.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> This was in the Mail:
> View attachment 74933



Obv inaccurate, she is going to hell


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Obv inaccurate, she is going to hell



Hell is just waiting in the queue for heaven for all eternity. With Cilla Black.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Hell is just waiting in the queue for heaven for all eternity. With Cilla Black.


singing.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 5, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> Try this one for size: quiz asking you to name the countries NOT invaded by Britain. It is a short, short list....
> 
> http://www.sporcle.com/games/RobPro/countries-not-invaded-by-britain-map



theres still a few that need to knocked off the list most of the european ones left could be knocked off over a long weekend with a scorpian tank


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

But who would want to invade Luxembourg anyway? This is a place that even Belgium didn't want ffs.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2015)

Does bring it on himself sometimes.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2015)

Just been in to town and the woman i saw the other day was there, with loads of others. She said she was living in a caravan in a neighbouring town and didnt have any money for nappies, i ended up giving her £20 cos i felt bad not helping her out the other day, which was possibly a bit daft seeing as ive unexpectedly been made unemployed. Then two other women appeared asking for money and i had to say no. Someone tapped me on the shoulder and told me not to do it. 

The fact that they are in a group this time as opposed to when she was on her own makes me a bit suspicious but I imagine its a shit situation either way really.  

Fuck knows what can be done, its only gonna get worse. I wish i could do something. SpookyFrank could you send me a pm as id quite like to get involved with something round here


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

brogdale said:


>




Just what they need over there, more fucking columnists


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 5, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Amazing how many people, depending on the day or hour of the day, regurgitate one of two thought terminating clichés 1) the working-class are feckless and lazy which is why they aren't willing to pick potatoes for minimum wage or less unlike those industrious foreigners 2) that horrible 'swarm' of foreigners is undermining our plucky indigenous working-class and we would have full employment if not for the 'swarm'.



It's Schroedinger's immigrant: simultaneously scrounging on benefits and stealing our jobs.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

A few days ago police fired teargas canisters into the migrant camp where people, including young children, were sleeping.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2015)




----------



## peterkro (Aug 5, 2015)

On news night just now,robot presenter "have you heard of "far left anarchists" promoting violence in Calais",French ambassador,rolls eyes as only the French can do,and then politely says "yes I've heard these rumours.WTF.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2015)

peterkro said:


> On news night just now,robot presenter "have you heard of "far left anarchists" promoting violence in Calais",French ambassador,rolls eyes as only the French can do,and then politely says "yes I've heard these rumours.WTF.



Daily Mail writing Newsnight scripts?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 5, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> <snip> A few days ago police fired teargas canisters into the migrant camp where people, including young children, were sleeping.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

peterkro said:


> On news night just now,robot presenter "have you heard of "far left anarchists" promoting violence in Calais",French ambassador,rolls eyes as only the French can do,and then politely says "yes I've heard these rumours.WTF.



We might promote violence if there was any shortage of it in Calais, but with all the gang fights and random police beatings and attacks from nazis we've got all the chaos and bloodshed we could hope for thanks. We've been beaten, bottled, pepper sprayed and last christmas the local fash tried to kidnap one of us. And that's a fraction of what the migrants themselves endure, and they can't just get on the boat and fuck off home when they've had enough.

Call us violent. Cheeky cunt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2015)

"Have you heard these rumours that your government spread in the first place, and which we're now repeating without bothering to verify them in any way?"

"Mai oui, 'ow funny eet eez zat you should mention zis. We 'ave 'erd zese rumours of which you are speaking, yes."

"And how would you respond to people who say that hundreds of armed police are more likely to cause violence than half a dozen skinny, chain-smoking activists?"

"We would not respond to people saying zis, because ze people who say zis do not have 'ow you say television channels so nobody can ere zem."


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 6, 2015)

Daily Mail ferry offer used by activists to feed migrants

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/31/daily-mail-ferry-offer_n_6584282.html



> Strike! magazine
> Community · 14,109 Likes
> · 28 January ·
> How to help your fellow human beings at the Calais migrant camps... at the Daily Mail's expense! This is probably the best thing you could do this weekend/ever:
> ...


 I had no idea this was happening/had happened.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 6, 2015)

Doesn't the scum do these offers a few times a year too?


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 6, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> Daily Mail ferry offer used by activists to feed migrants
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/31/daily-mail-ferry-offer_n_6584282.html
> 
> ...


That is fucking boss!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 6, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> Daily Mail ferry offer used by activists to feed migrants
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/31/daily-mail-ferry-offer_n_6584282.html
> 
> ...



The link is out of date now, the migrant camps referred to there have been cleared out now, but these offers still come up from time to time so keep an eye out for them if you're thinking of taking some donations across.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 6, 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/882751941799554/

Here is a new facebook group specifically for sharing information on ways that people can help the folks in Calais. Lots of people (me included) are planning runs to Calais with vans full of useful stuff in the near future, and many of them will be happy to collect anything you may have to donate if you're nearby. There are also links to fundraisers if you want to contibute something for petrol and ferry tickets etc. 

All this stuff makes a big difference, particularly now when numbers are so high and NGOs aren't able to provide enough for everyone by themselves. 

If anyone is able to spend some time in Calais helping to distribute stuff, keep an eye on the police and generally be a friendly presence to remind people that not everyone in Europe thinks they're vermin then that would be wonderful. If anyone wants more information about ny of this please contact me via PM.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 6, 2015)

The logistics effort in terms of supporting people from the UK has really been stepped up this summer, with lots of people who have never been involved with this stuff before falling over themselves to help out. It's doing me a lot of good at the moment to see so much evidence that the British public are so much better than the merciless fuckers who write the newspapers.


----------



## Sparkle Motion (Aug 6, 2015)

Saw a news report on French TV from Folkestone talking about "French Bashing" but the local interviewees seemed very reasonable. 

But some workmates have been unable to get in, and there are tales of people being sacked or unable to visit relatives in hospital due to Stack. 

If it continues it could create real tensions in Kent.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2015)

> *Jaz O'Hara added 8 new photos.*
> Yesterday at 00:49 · Edited ·
> I’ve been thinking all day about how I can find the words for what we experienced yesterday.
> 
> ...



https://www.facebook.com/jasmin.ohara/posts/10155886887785022


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 7, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/882751941799554/
> 
> Here is a new facebook group specifically for sharing information on ways that people can help the folks in Calais. Lots of people (me included) are planning runs to Calais with vans full of useful stuff in the near future, and many of them will be happy to collect anything you may have to donate if you're nearby. There are also links to fundraisers if you want to contibute something for petrol and ferry tickets etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that - had a look at the fb group and at the info tour thing coming up too - will try my best to get along.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 7, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/jasmin.ohara/posts/10155886887785022



Just pledged £5


----------



## weltweit (Aug 7, 2015)

Songs of Praise to be broadcast from Calais migrant camp
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...to-be-broadcast-from-Calais-migrant-camp.html


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 7, 2015)

I'd quite like to hear that actually weltweit whens it on?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 7, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I'd quite like to hear that actually weltweit whens it on?


I only know from the article that it won't be this Sunday.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 7, 2015)

weltweit said:


> I only know from the article that it won't be this Sunday.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 7, 2015)

some proper idiot on a comments section about this said "why they built them a church when they're mostly muslims?" "waste of money" etc 
had to be explained to them that there are many faiths there and that they built it themselves


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 7, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I'd quite like to hear that actually weltweit whens it on?



16th August apparently.


----------



## panpete (Aug 8, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Thanks for raising this subject. Are you writing from first hand experience? I know the French generally regard the Brits responsible for this continuing human misery. If we were part of the Schengen Agreement then these people would be able to enter without difficulty. The Guardian recently carried a long story about the death toll among migrants and the shocking conditions in which they try to live. It seems that Britain isn't taking anything like its fair share of asylum seekers, though apparently only a small proportion will claim asylum anyway, preferring to take their chance as illegals. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rying-enter-uk-die-shameful-calais-conditions
> 
> Here's a handy myth-busting guide from Salford City Council to wave at Kippers.


I know this is old but that was a really powerful article, I cannot imagine the trauma these refugees are going through, the terrifying journey, and the unbearablely scary conditions in the camps.

I know about the situation, but I don't know the truth, and have not got the gist. It's a long thread so I have not yet read it, but I will, i'm just reading another guardian article. Not that I believe guardian or telegraph, dunno who to believe, but I feel sorry for these people, I would not be strong enough to do what they are doing, I would be too scared.
Shouldn't we all, as different countries, do our bit, take as many as possible?
Why is everyone being so mean to them, meaning all the other countries, and the UK?
They are taking desperate risks because they have nothing to lose, and are losing people to death all the time, what a complete headfuck of an existence.

Are there really a higher concentration of refugees in Northern France, bound for the UK, or is that just our media distorting things, to feed us alie, to try and incite hatred from the uk public, and equal concentrations are going to other countries, without crossing the sea to Little Britain?

Scuse my ignorance, but if there really is a higher concentration of refugees in northern France, bound for the UK, what is so special about Little Britain?
Sorry about the questions, I don't believe they are coming for the welfare benefits, because our new rules mean they most likely wouldn't qualify.

I've heard our slimy Prime Minister talking about them, and he is shameful spreading lies to the public.
Thanks.


----------



## panpete (Aug 8, 2015)

someone has drawn this tree on a wall, in some wasteland between a chemical factory and a motorway.  
These people are an example of trying to find a light in a very dark place.


----------



## panpete (Aug 8, 2015)

I answered my own question about refugees wanting to come to UK, some do, but not all, quote taken from guardian response.
The UK is being really shitty about this atm. It's not their fault, there is even fear and persecution in the Calais camps, exactly the stuff these poor souls were running away from. 



> Look at the table and you will see that the vast majority of them do claim asylum before the UK - Malta over 10x the rate for the UK, Germany and Cyprus 3x, France 2x.
> 
> We are already well below the EU average.


_I had to do the quote manually as i could not find the button-duh_


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 8, 2015)

panpete said:


> I answered my own question about refugees wanting to come to UK, some do, but not all, quote taken from guardian response.
> The UK is being really shitty about this atm. It's not their fault, there is even fear and persecution in the Calais camps, exactly the stuff these poor souls were running away from.
> 
> 
> _I had to do the quote manually as i could not find the button-duh_


Go to Insert and there it is first in the drop down menu.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2015)

panpete said:


> These people are an example of trying to find a light in a very dark place.



That's the most extraordinary thing about the jungles. The fact that most of the people there are still smiling, still friendly, still insistent on sharing whatever they have for you. The biggest danger you face if you go to visit migrants in Calais is kidney failure brought on by the sheer number of cups of tea you will be obliged to drink. This despite their obvious anger, frustration and fear.

For most people in the world beyond Europe, no amount of hardship is a suitable excuse not to be hospitable.


----------



## panpete (Aug 8, 2015)

This short vid is amazing, it shows the resourcefulness and spirit of the refugees.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 8, 2015)

panpete said:


> This short vid is amazing, it shows the resourcefulness and spirit of the refugees.



I hope a doctor sees that and fixes that kid's leg.


----------



## Voley (Aug 9, 2015)

My sister has been in touch with Worldwide Tribe and is driving up there in the next week or so with a vanload of clothes, tents, food etc to try and help.

If you can donate anything - clothes, non-perishable goods, cooking utensils, anything useful, please do. If there isn't a collection point near you, you can donate.

Pleasingly, the original target was to raise a grand. It's currently at £18000.


----------



## panpete (Aug 9, 2015)

Voley said:


> My sister has been in touch with Worldwide Tribe and is driving up there in the next week or so with a vanload of clothes, tents, food etc to try and help.
> 
> If you can donate anything - clothes, non-perishable goods, cooking utensils, anything useful, please do. If there isn't a collection point near you, you can donate.
> 
> Pleasingly, the original target was to raise a grand. It's currently at £18000.


I never knew world wide tribe existed, thank you for letting us know.
How do I find out if there is a collection point near me?
It says on the justgiving website to pledge, but how do you actually donate money?
Sorry to sound thick.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi panpete from my reading of the fb page they have a couple of collection points in London and one planned for Kent also. Where exactly I am not yet sure.

As to how you make a donation on the Crowdfunding page: https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/CalAid at the bottom middle of the screen it says "pledge" in purple.


----------



## cesare (Aug 9, 2015)

Voley said:


> My sister has been in touch with Worldwide Tribe and is driving up there in the next week or so with a vanload of clothes, tents, food etc to try and help.
> 
> If you can donate anything - clothes, non-perishable goods, cooking utensils, anything useful, please do. If there isn't a collection point near you, you can donate.
> 
> Pleasingly, the original target was to raise a grand. It's currently at £18000.


They should change their target on the just giving page, perhaps. "Due to overwhelming generosity we're encouraged to increase our efforts and have revised the target to £25000"


----------



## panpete (Aug 9, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Hi panpete from my reading of the fb page they have a couple of collection points in London and one planned for Kent also. Where exactly I am not yet sure.
> 
> As to how you make a donation on the Crowdfunding page: https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/CalAid at the bottom middle of the screen it says "pledge" in purple.


Sorry to sound thick I thought pledging was just promising, silly me, but thank you.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 9, 2015)

Did anyone see this? Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has been commenting on African migration.

Migrants from Africa threaten the European Union's living standards and its social structure, British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said on Sunday, saying the bloc was unable to take in millions of people seeking a new life.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/09/uk-europe-migrants-hammond-idUKKCN0QE0J320150809

It is a big issue for Europe certainly the closest states like Italy and Greece, but the Germans take by far the most migrants esp compared to the UK, we are hardly in a position to postulate. Surely the only way to reduce the flow of people is to resolve the wars that blight the region and build the economies so people prefer to stay in their own countries.

A great example of economy building was when the former East and West Germanys underwent reunification. The west poured subsidies into the east for many years to improve standards of living and modernise infrastructure and industry. If Europe wants to stem the migration from Africa perhaps it needs a plan!


----------



## weltweit (Aug 9, 2015)

panpete said:


> Sorry to sound thick I thought pledging was just promising, silly me, but thank you.


Yes, "pledge" to me also means promise. I don't think they have been going long perhaps they will change it sometime.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 9, 2015)

I quite like this article:

Is It Time for Some Facts About Those Migrants?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/robin-lustig/calais-migrants-refugees_b_7909630.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 10, 2015)

*‘Is this really Europe?’: refugees in Calais speak of desperate conditions*

https://theconversation.com/is-this...in-calais-speak-of-desperate-conditions-45414


----------



## panpete (Aug 10, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Did anyone see this? Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has been commenting on African migration.
> 
> Migrants from Africa threaten the European Union's living standards and its social structure, British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said on Sunday, saying the bloc was unable to take in millions of people seeking a new life.
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/09/uk-europe-migrants-hammond-idUKKCN0QE0J320150809
> ...


I think that is exactly what is needed for these African countries, but the west are intent on destroying rather than building up these countries. 
The west created this mess whether directly or indirectly, so I think that their intention is to further destroy these countries, and to displace millions of people, and not only that, but to refuse, or to make it hard for these displaced people to re-build their lives here.


----------



## panpete (Aug 10, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Yes, "pledge" to me also means promise. I don't think they have been going long perhaps they will change it sometime.


I ended up donating a tenner anyway, hopefully, it can feed maybe five of these people for a day, or hopefully more.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 10, 2015)

weltweit said:


> I hope a doctor sees that and fixes that kid's leg.



There is a little clinic (basically two portakabins) outside the main Calais hospital where people without papers can get basic medical treatment no questions asked. I expect they're fucking swamped at the moment though, numbers have more than doubled since last time I was there.

My worry with that little boy would be that he's gone so long without treatment that the bone will have set badly and will need major surgery to get put right.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 11, 2015)

https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/are-journalists-people-too/



> Journalists are everywhere in Calais these days. A real swarm of them. Strutting around the jungle, barging into people’s tents and private spaces, asking the same questions over and over (can’t they google, or read each other’s stories?), shoving their oversized cameras in people’s faces without asking for consent …





> The thing is, though, it’s not just about individual journalists good or bad. The mass media play a systematic role in the border “crisis” and the border regime here. The rightwing UK press whipped up the political storm that shut the Sangatte refugee camp in 2001, and is now turning Calais into a militarised zone. The liberal UK media are also part of the problem. They continually reinforce the “common sense” establishment view: migration is a crisis, police and borders are necessary and legitimate, just can we make the violence a bit softer and less visible.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 11, 2015)

I wonder what happens when these folk do make it into Britain - are there support networks that are ready to receive them if they don't claim asylum?


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 11, 2015)

I read this in the Indy today with a lot of sympathy but could scarcely credit this passage: 





> *Meanwhile, just offering a helping hand to an undocumented migrant in France can result in fines of more than £20,000 and up to five years in prison, which has discouraged many support networks from giving out food and other essentials*.


 My French Google fu isn't brilliant but turned up this 2009 Slate article, which in turn pointed to the relevant law on foreign residents and asylum seekers. Chapitre II : Aide à l'entrée et au séjour irréguliers. *So it's true. You can be fined €30 000 or go to jail for up to five years if you assist someone without legal papers to enter, move about or stay in France. *
There are limited exceptions for providing legal advice, food, accommodation or medical care or aid with a view to preserving dignity or physical integrity, whatever that means. It doesn't cover supplying books or mobile phones, or teaching, or a host of other things.

I realise this thread is about the UK border and don't want to get into any French-bashing with my limited understanding of French and the law and general situation there. Charitably, one might hope that it was aimed at traffickers and smugglers but unintentionally caught up charities and aid agencies in its wake. But at first sight it seems that the Brits aren't alone in framing laws to set everyone else's hand against migrants.

Perhaps someone with a knowledge of French law could weigh in. Meanwhile, yeah, Godwin.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 12, 2015)

I don't know of any cases where that law has been used against aid agencies or activists. Most of the people helping migrants in Calais (outside of the three or four big charities who have a presence there) are not French nationals, and I doubt the French authorities would be keen to prosecute people from elsewhere in the EU under such a dodgy law.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> well the point is that the british empire was still very much extant after the second world war, fatally wounded but it limped on for a bit. It would useful to make a thread about places the empire didn't fuck over. And still today, we have had our state fuck the middle east right up. So I think its a bit rich to start moaning when people want to come wsomewhere that if not brilliant is better than airstrikes or sectarian violence



So you believe in an open borders - I don't. I do not feel responsible for empire or any other crimes committed by someone else's wealthy ancestors. Where's my fucking family castle...Oh sorry - it's in the workhouse with your nan who worked her fingers to the bone!

I didn't realise airstrikes or sectarian violence was happening in France btw?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 12, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> So you believe in an open borders - I don't. I do not feel responsible for empire or any other crimes committed by someone else's wealthy ancestors.



But you're not the one paying for those crimes. The people in Calais are, amongst many others. 

It's not about five hundred years ago or fifty years ago or last week for that matter, there are people who need help _now_ and people who are able to provide it but choose not to. Ignore history completely and that situation is still unjust.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> But you're not the one paying for those crimes. The people in Calais are, amongst many others.
> 
> It's not about five hundred years ago or fifty years ago or last week for that matter, there are people who need help _now_ and people who are able to provide it but choose not to. Ignore history completely and that situation is still unjust.



They are in FRANCE not Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Eritrea etc. etc.

If people want to come for whatever reason then ok. but please don't say there is no choice.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't know of any cases where that law has been used against aid agencies or activists. Most of the people helping migrants in Calais (outside of the three or four big charities who have a presence there) are not French nationals, and I doubt the French authorities would be keen to prosecute people from elsewhere in the EU under such a dodgy law.



I have massive sympathy for refugees. I understand migration more than most I hope. I know you have been over there to help also and seriously respect you for that.

I just really object to the current terminology and self righteous bollocks without a solution. It goes deeper than opening Calais and needs to be addressed as such.

It needs a UN approach. People are still dying in whatever sea to go where ever hundreds at a time and the press is wittering on about Calais and a few jumpers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 12, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I just really object to the current terminology and self righteous bollocks without a solution. It goes deeper than opening Calais and needs to be addressed as such.



We are agreed on this then. But any international solution must involve the UK taking some kind of responsibility. With the situation as it stands we are able to disregard our obligation to the international community solely on the grounds that there are twenty miles of open water between us and the rest of Europe. 

Of course we need more than jumpers to fix this, of course any material thing we can give is a temporary measure at best. But as individuals there is a limit to what we can do, what we can take responsibility for. But every act of kindness, however small, is a rejection of the official consensus which states that these people are not our problem. And the more people who reject that idea, the closer we come to replacing it with something better.

That might sound overfully hopeful, but to see the sheer numbers of people who want to help makes me hopeful. And there is not much in this world that gives me hope if I'm honest. 

And even if we can't fix the bigger picture, the world is a better place if one person has a good pair of shoes they might otherwise have gone without. The world is a better place if one person feels that they are not forgotten by the people around them.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 12, 2015)

Not to say that I don't worry that anything we do is counterproductive/a waste of time/a load of patronising liberal shit.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2015)

Look SpookyFrank

I'm just glad there are people like you that haven't lost their humanity to be replaced by a weary cynicism like mine.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 12, 2015)

Telling it how it is

Rachel Shabi

How Europe turned its back on humanity


----------



## teqniq (Aug 12, 2015)

The Wetsuitman



> Last winter two bodies were found in Norway and the Netherlands. They were wearing identical wetsuits. The police in three countries were involved in the case, but never managed to identify them. This is the story of who they were.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 13, 2015)

even if folks are skint, could you please publicise this project

http://gogetfunding.com/an-education-for-calais-migrant-kids/


----------



## Voley (Aug 19, 2015)

My sister's trip made the local paper:


*Campaign to gather donations "snowballed" as people rushed to help migrants*

Read more: http://www.cornishman.co.uk/Campaig...tory-27638971-detail/story.html#ixzz3jHtl77sl


I'm immensely proud.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 19, 2015)

http://jasonnparkinson.com/2015/08/19/the-man-that-built-his-home-in-the-jungle/


----------



## Lefty92 (Aug 19, 2015)

I don't think it's right that Greece, a much poorer country than our own with far fewer resources, is taking in a far greater number of migrants than the UK. Where has our compassion and generosity as a country gone towards humans who are desperate, alone and destitute with nowhere to go?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 20, 2015)

People on the ground in Calais are currently saying that if possible people should start spreading their convoys out a bit. Storage and logistics for dealing with large amounts of donated stuff are limited, and there have been a lot of vanloads crossing the channel in the last few weeks already. If you're planning a trip, or collecting stuff, it might be better to wait a month or two before taking stuff to Calais. 

The time of greatest need for shelter, clothes and bedding in Calais is winter. It's important to keep up the good work over time and ensure that stuff being donated doesn't go to waste. If possible, get in touch with people on the ground in Calais before you plan a trip and try to get some real-time information on what's needed, whether there's storage available and who is around to help organise distribution. 

It might be time to get some proper co-ordination in place to organise all this here in the UK. At the moment it's one bloke posting on facebook from Denmark doing most of the legwork on this.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Aug 20, 2015)

The few people posting from calais are doing amazing patient work with all the British convoys


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 20, 2015)

And if you come to Calais over the christmas period, you get to meet me  I will even buy you a drink in one of Calais' least scummy bars.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 20, 2015)

SpookyFrank - any chance you could post the above info in the Calais thread in protest/direct action forum? Some good info that would benefit from being posted there. Ta


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2015)

http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1046969.html

The spiegels done a great piece on this


----------



## yield (Aug 20, 2015)

Not sure if already posted? 

Calais crisis: British police to be deployed to target people-smuggling
20 August 2015


> Their deal will see officers from the UK based in a new command and control centre in Calais alongside their French counterparts and Border Force personnel.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 20, 2015)

There's no situation so dire that British plod can't somehow make it worse.

As for targetting people smuggling, can these be the same French authorities who not long ago were happy to negotiate with gangs of traffickers to help ensure their control over the migrants jungles?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 20, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> SpookyFrank - any chance you could post the above info in the Calais thread in protest/direct action forum? Some good info that would benefit from being posted there. Ta



Yes, good plan. Done now


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 25, 2015)

Surprised theres no mention of fash rioting in Germany over the weekend about this. Apparently they were shouting 'Heil Hitler' 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ters-clash-with-police-at-new-migrant-shelter


----------



## weltweit (Aug 28, 2015)

Glastonbury donates discarded wellies to migrants in Calais
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...nates-discarded-wellies-to-migrants-in-calais


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 28, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ord-numbers-cross-the-border-with-Serbia.html


----------



## tony.c (Aug 31, 2015)

Having demolished the Sangatte refugee centre 10 years ago, the French Government is now saying it will build a tent camp for 1,500 refugees in Calais - less than half the number who are there at present.

*France to build Calais camp for 1,500 migrants *
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/31/uk-europe-migrants-france--idUKKCN0R01L720150831


----------



## 8115 (Aug 31, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> People on the ground in Calais are currently saying that if possible people should start spreading their convoys out a bit. Storage and logistics for dealing with large amounts of donated stuff are limited, and there have been a lot of vanloads crossing the channel in the last few weeks already. If you're planning a trip, or collecting stuff, it might be better to wait a month or two before taking stuff to Calais.
> 
> The time of greatest need for shelter, clothes and bedding in Calais is winter. It's important to keep up the good work over time and ensure that stuff being donated doesn't go to waste. If possible, get in touch with people on the ground in Calais before you plan a trip and try to get some real-time information on what's needed, whether there's storage available and who is around to help organise distribution.
> 
> It might be time to get some proper co-ordination in place to organise all this here in the UK. At the moment it's one bloke posting on facebook from Denmark doing most of the legwork on this.


Yeah, I've seen a few collecting posts on facebook and felt that a bit of the stuff was bound to end up getting dumped because it wasn't the right kind of stuff.  For instance telling people to buy tents on amazon and get them delivered to collectors, that tent's going to be someone's home and a £20 one probably won't hack it.


----------



## Manter (Aug 31, 2015)

8115 said:


> Yeah, I've seen a few collecting posts on facebook and felt that a bit of the stuff was bound to end up getting dumped because it wasn't the right kind of stuff.  For instance telling people to buy tents on amazon and get them delivered to collectors, that tent's going to be someone's home and a £20 one probably won't hack it.


They cannibalise what they get if it isn't fit for purpose- while obviously the ideal is large multi person double skin tents with taped seams, little pop up tents are used for belongings etc too. 
And needs change really quickly-yesterday it was no more wellies, today it's more wellies please, after the torrential rain.


----------



## 8115 (Aug 31, 2015)

It's frustrating that the only options for helping seem to be small efforts or big corporate charities.


----------



## Manter (Aug 31, 2015)

8115 said:


> It's frustrating that the only options for helping seem to be small efforts or big corporate charities.


Big charities aren't in Calais- for complicated political reasons mostly. There are small charities helping- auberge d'immigrants, secours catholique. Emmanus are taking lots of stuff over. They are all trying to organise/systematise to avoid issues with storage etc, distribute fairly, anticipate demand....

But I think part of the strength of the effort is the small efforts- individuals who, in the words of one of them, choose to work together every day to try and make a difference.

One Facebook page is getting a new follower every 8 minutes at the moment- all individuals who want to do what they can to help. Sure it's a bit chaotic at times, but it is all making a difference, and putting pressure on government as a sideline.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2015)

peterkro said:


> On news night just now,robot presenter "have you heard of "far left anarchists" promoting violence in Calais",French ambassador,rolls eyes as only the French can do,and then politely says "yes I've heard these rumours.WTF.



Is it me or has there been a real revival of red baiting in the past couple of years?


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Is it me or has there been a real revival of red baiting in the past couple of years?



Its not just you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Is it me or has there been a real revival of red baiting in the past couple of years?


its never gone away. Just become a little more shrill in an era when naked inequality is well...naked in a manner not so prevelant in past times. Its far easier to shout trot at a charity worker than admit they are doing what you won't


----------



## hash tag (Sep 1, 2015)

Talking of naked, has anyone seen what Tory councillor Mike Kusneraitis posted or tweeted or what ever 
Tory councillor sorry over photo of boat full of 14 naked women with caption: 'If Carlsberg did illegal immigrants'


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2015)

Should be proud of themselves.


----------



## cesare (Sep 2, 2015)

*More than 11,000 Icelanders offer to house Syrian refugees to help European crisis *

Thousands of Icelanders are offering Syrian refugees their homes


----------



## Fingers (Sep 2, 2015)

1500 British families have now signed up.

meanwhile this group have acquired three caravans which being taken to calais.  they aim for 1000 before christmas which i personally think will be a logistical nightmare for them but good on them

Log in to Facebook | Facebook


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2015)

Breaking news:



> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> 
> "There is a big protest happening here at the Salam distribution centre in the jungle and the government have cut the satellite signal so there can be no broadcast.
> 
> ...


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 3, 2015)

Fingers said:


> 1500 British families have now signed up.
> 
> meanwhile this group have acquired three caravans which being taken to calais.  they aim for 1000 before christmas which i personally think will be a logistical nightmare for them but good on them
> 
> Log in to Facebook | Facebook


I don't think they'll get 1000 but the three they do have would make good points of contact offices for people living in or volunteering in the camp imo


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 3, 2015)

. moved to other thread.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 3, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Is it me or has there been a real revival of red baiting in the past couple of years?


I've noticed it since the Tory cunts were in coalition with the orange shite.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 3, 2015)

Manter said:


> One Facebook page is getting a new follower every 8 minutes at the moment- all individuals who want to do what they can to help. Sure it's a bit chaotic at times, but it is all making a difference, and putting pressure on government as a sideline.


Over 3500 joined since 8am this morning 
Guess the outrage over the photos yesterday snowballed


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2015)

Christ don't ever read the comment thread on a Daily Express news story about migration.

On one article alone there are people suggesting half a dozen different methods of genocide as a means of resolving the problem, with 'shoot them all' proving the most popular.

This is particuarly special:



> Not a big fan of Hitler but the bloke had the right idea. Round them up stick them in work camps and leave them there until there country sorts itself out


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 4, 2015)

I know getting upset at those rags as a cause of this shit rather than a symptom of capitalism and govt policy is kind of liberal bollocks thats been debunked many times over the years. But i have developed a particular hatred for the mail and express (and sometimes the fuckin mirror) over sll these middle eastern horror stories. The mail in particular keeps posting isis propaganda as clickbait and reporting on the minutiae of what they're doing like that stupid 'benefit office' crap. Its horrible sensationalised shit and the stuff they're printing now is the height of hypocrisy given the tone of their coverage during the last few years

Although some of the comments (some of which banged on about jews and appeared to be written by nazi sympathisers) on that solidarity for refugees group kind of made me lose the will to live today as well


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 4, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I know getting upset at those rags as a cause of this shit rather than a symptom of capitalism and govt policy is kind of liberal bollocks thats been debunked many times over the years. But i have developed a particular hatred for the mail and express (and sometimes the fuckin mirror) over sll these middle eastern horror stories. The mail in particular keeps posting isis propaganda as clickbait and reporting on the minutiae of what they're doing like that stupid 'benefit office' crap. Its horrible sensationalised shit and the stuff they're printing now is the height of hypocrisy given the tone of their coverage during the last few years
> 
> Although some of the comments (some of which banged on about jews and appeared to be written by nazi sympathisers) on that solidarity for refugees group kind of made me lose the will to live today as well



I wouldn't get too depressed about what you read in those comments section. I get the feeling there is a lot of sock-puppeting from far right posters, who post obsessively their sociopathic fantasies. It's rare to meet someone who is that far gone in real life.

Most people are very easily swayed by compassion when they see the reality of another person's suffering. That photo of the child dead on a beach seems to have really changed the terms of the debate. Those are the people to focus on. Ignore the babblings of online fascists.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 4, 2015)

I am in  a team day and people are misinformed about how many refugees UK hosts
I must not loose my temper 
Esp with my colleague who is a refugee herself and other colleagues who were born in other countries 
But misinformation is misinformation


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I wouldn't get too depressed about what you read in those comments section. I get the feeling there is a lot of sock-puppeting from far right posters, who post obsessively their sociopathic fantasies. It's rare to meet someone who is that far gone in real life.
> 
> Most people are very easily swayed by compassion when they see the reality of another person's suffering. That photo of the child dead on a beach seems to have really changed the terms of the debate. Those are the people to focus on. Ignore the babblings of online fascists.




I wonder if the poor child had been less European looking, would the dreadful images have had the same impact?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2015)

Darker skinned African babies/children who have drowned were also shown, weeks ago in fact. I won't link to a pic. Just remembering it hurts too much.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 4, 2015)

I think the impact of the image of Aylan al-Kurdi cannot be understated, and I think it came to light primarily because of unmoderated social media. Traditional news outlets, many at least, have been protecting us from reality with statements like "images too distressing to show" for far too long.


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I know getting upset at those rags as a cause of this shit rather than a symptom of capitalism and govt policy is kind of liberal bollocks thats been debunked many times over the years. But i have developed a particular hatred for the mail and express (and sometimes the fuckin mirror) over sll these middle eastern horror stories. The mail in particular keeps posting isis propaganda as clickbait and reporting on the minutiae of what they're doing like that stupid 'benefit office' crap. Its horrible sensationalised shit and the stuff they're printing now is the height of hypocrisy given the tone of their coverage during the last few years
> 
> Although some of the comments (some of which banged on about jews and appeared to be written by nazi sympathisers) on that solidarity for refugees group kind of made me lose the will to live today as well


The Mail has a long history of saying x is disgusting and now let me tell you in extended detail exactly how disgusting with photographs. I think half the readers are so reactionary because they are absolutely terrified of their own psyches- it all reads a bit 'protests too much'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2015)

weltweit said:


> I think the impact of the image of Aylan al-Kurdi cannot be understated, and I think it came to light primarily because of unmoderated social media. Traditional news outlets, many at least, have been protecting us from reality with statements like "images too distressing to show" for far too long.



Massive attempt by the papers to actually sell some as well, the very papers who are also demonising others like this family. Cunts.


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> Darker skinned African babies/children who have drowned were also shown, weeks ago in fact. I won't link to a pic. Just remembering it hurts too much.


There have been photos of pale skinned dead toddlers before too. i am not sure why this one child affected people so much tbh. Not sure it is as simple as racism though


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 4, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I wouldn't get too depressed about what you read in those comments section. I get the feeling there is a lot of sock-puppeting from far right posters, who post obsessively their sociopathic fantasies. It's rare to meet someone who is that far gone in real life.
> 
> Most people are very easily swayed by compassion when they see the reality of another person's suffering. That photo of the child dead on a beach seems to have really changed the terms of the debate. Those are the people to focus on. Ignore the babblings of online fascists.



So who is posting up this stuff then? Is it all people in the organised far right with multiple accounts as i dont really know people as ex like that IRL.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2015)

Manter said:


> There have been photos of pale skinned dead toddlers before too. i am not sure why this one child affected people so much tbh._ Not sure it is as simple as racism though_



I wasn't suggesting it was . I was responding to the post above mine.

Although I do think for some people there is some going on.

I think it's about timing myself.


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

I haven't seen much shit at all in the solidarity group I am part of. Some naivity, some genuine questions that betrayed a lack of understanding, but no nazi/antisenitic etc stuff. We haven't even seen many trolls recently, whereas in the first few weeks of the group we had loads!

E2a frogwoman


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 4, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> So who is posting up this stuff then? Is it all people in the organised far right with multiple accounts as i dont really know people as ex like that IRL.



That's always been my assumption, yes. I'm sure I remember coming across a thread on a certain message board that'll remain unnamed (let's just call it shitty y-fronts), in which people were discussing that as a tactic. Not a very good tactic, if you ask me.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 4, 2015)

Manter said:


> I haven't seen much shit at all in the solidarity group I am part of. Some naivity, some genuine questions that betrayed a lack of understanding, but no nazi/antisenitic etc stuff. We haven't even seen many trolls recently, whereas in the first few weeks of the group we had loads!
> 
> E2a frogwoman



Which group are u in. Pm me 

This was an events page for a demo


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> I wasn't suggesting it was.
> 
> I think it's about timing myself.


I was thinking aloud really. And there is some racism around the whole thing- think of the immediate response to the Syrian refugees who 'look like us', vs the lethargic response to Sudanese refugees. Or the Slovak crap about only taking Christians and the Hungarian pm spouting crap about Europe losing its Christian identity, and it being a German problem.. There is a lot of racism and historical crap being played out.

I just wonder why this child so much. Something to do with the policeman picking him up and cradling the body?


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Which group are u in. Pm me
> 
> This was an events page for a demo


Done x


----------



## weltweit (Sep 4, 2015)

Manter said:


> .. I just wonder why this child so much. Something to do with the policeman picking him up and cradling the body?


I think the first image of him lying unnaturally on the sand, face in the water, with the policeman standing nearby has more impact, it is an unnatural pose for a little boy, it emphasises how tiny and defenceless he was.

I haven't seen any pictures of earlier victims, sometimes one just galvanises the imagination. There were tweets with the words migrant and refugee and immigrant crossed out and the single word Child repeated in their place. I found that quite persuasive.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 4, 2015)

Manter said:


> I just wonder why this child so much. Something to do with the policeman picking him up and cradling the body?



Wars produce some grisly, inhumane images and we have as always become desensitised to them. The war in Vietnam was no different and the images of which there are countless thousands are a matter of record but three stand out, the self imolating Buddhist monk, the execution of the Vietcong member by the head of the police and the plight of Kim Phuc running over the bridge after the napalm attack all shook the world's conscience. It only takes one tragedy in a million to strike a chord of compassion. The sight of the policeman gently cradling Aylan may create a wave of action and lead to something good out of this tragic event. All those braying politicians complaining about refugees should hang their heads in shame.
Some of us could envisage these events when Blair and Bush started a vindictive, needless war and we can trace the conflicts in the Middle East back to pre Sykes-Picot. We in the West have been marauding, imperialist bastards. It's about time we took responsibility for our actions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Wars produce some grisly, inhumane images and we have as always become desensitised to them. The war in Vietnam was no different and the images of which there are countless thousands are a matter of record but three stand out, the self isolating Buddhist monk, the execution of the Vietcong member by the head of the police and the plight of Kim Phuc running over the bridge after the napalm attack all shook the world's conscience. It only takes one tragedy in a million to strike a chord of compassion. The sight of the policeman gently cradling Aylan may create a wave of action and lead to something good out of this tragic event. All those braying politicians complaining about refugees should hang their heads in shame.
> Some of us could envisage these events when Blair and Bush started a vindictive, needless war and we can trace the conflicts in the Middle East back to pre Sykes-Picot. We in the West have been marauding, imperialist bastards. It's about time we took responsibility for our actions.


surely 4?



Spoiler


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> surely 4?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have seen this photograph since the end of the Vietnam war, sadly I am old enough to remember the others from the Daily Mirror. Was this as widely published PM, or was it censored at the time?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> I have seen this photograph since the end of the Vietnam war, sadly I am old enough to remember the others from the Daily Mirror. Was this as widely published PM, or was it censored at the time?


it's been pretty widely published: but don't have the time today to go through its history


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Wars produce some grisly, inhumane images and we have as always become desensitised to them. The war in Vietnam was no different and the images of which there are countless thousands are a matter of record but three stand out, the self isolating Buddhist monk, the execution of the Vietcong member by the head of the police and the plight of Kim Phuc running over the bridge after the napalm attack all shook the world's conscience. It only takes one tragedy in a million to strike a chord of compassion. The sight of the policeman gently cradling Aylan may create a wave of action and lead to something good out of this tragic event. All those braying politicians complaining about refugees should hang their heads in shame.
> Some of us could envisage these events when Blair and Bush started a vindictive, needless war and we can trace the conflicts in the Middle East back to pre Sykes-Picot. We in the West have been marauding, imperialist bastards. It's about time we took responsibility for our actions.


Interestingly you mention those photos and I can 'see' all of them. 

Balkan conflict I can see the emaciated prisoners behind barbed wire, and that close up of a bus window with rain running down it and a child's face and hand.


----------



## Manter (Sep 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> surely 4?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't alive for the Vietnam war, but the other three are in my head. This one isn't 

Funny what lodges/resonates and what doesn't


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 5, 2015)

I see this kind of thing on comments threads quite a lot and it's indicative of the level of ignorance that resides on the anti-immigration right.

This comment was found on Caroline Lucas's article on The Guardian website.
We need to welcome many more refugees than Cameron suggests | Caroline Lucas
 


> doseofrealism   Greg Kaye
> 1h ago
> 
> 0 1
> Indeed..and the largely male population should stay and fight



Yeah, it's that fucking simple. I'd really like take some of these keyboard warriors and drop them in Kobane and see how long they last.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 5, 2015)

Can you believe these compassionless wankers have organised a "no more refugees" petition?

From the same Guardian comments thread as above.


> Gerry4
> 15h ago
> 12
> Sign the Petition on migration to the UK:
> ...



I'd happily chip in to pay for this cunt's passage to Libya or some other war zone.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 5, 2015)

nino_savatte said:


> Can you believe these compassionless wankers have organised a "no more refugees" petition?
> 
> From the same Guardian comments thread as above.
> 
> ...



43,000 signatures  Bunch o'cunts.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2015)

French police fired 300 tear gas grenades into the jungle in Calais last night. Many of those attacked will have been children, pregnant women, or those too ill or wounded to flee. Many will have already been traumatised by war. 

How did we get to the point where the police force of a supposedly democratic, civilised nation is quite happy to admit to using chemical weapons for large-scale collective punishment? And does anyone want to pick a fight with me over the phrase 'ACAB' today? 



> A spokesman from the police trade union said that « almost 300 » gas grenade rounds had been fired. Gas was fired at first at the entrance of the jungle where people were gathering and onto the highway, but as the night continued police fired increasing amounts of gas deep into the jungle.
> 
> Although it was rendered less directly effective and powerful by the high wind speed, this did spread it around further. Once again, the Eritrean and Ethiopian section of the camp was heavily hit, being blanketed with gas several times. Gas grenades were also fired into some Afghan sections of the jungle far from any people who were protesting. The level of tear gas used was unprecedented. Hundreds of people were driven out of thier homes and living spaces by this indiscriminate use of chemical weaponary.



A Night of Collective Defiance

Have tried to find other news sources for this but nobody seems to give a fuck


----------



## cesare (Nov 10, 2015)

Kinell


----------



## crossthebreeze (Nov 10, 2015)

Fuck.
Thanks for posting that SpookyFranky.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 10, 2015)

A girl at work has been going over there, using up her annual leave to help out in the school there - fair play to her. Last time she came back saying the jungle is twice the size it was before and really quite dangerous. How is lobbing teargas into all this supposed to help?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2015)

teqniq said:


> A girl at work has been going over there, using up her annual leave to help out in the school there - fair play to her. Last time she came back saying the jungle is twice the size it was before and really quite dangerous. How is lobbing teargas into all this supposed to help?



Quite a few urbs have been doing the same  but helping out with other things like waste collections/distributions/building etc. Some of us are back there over the next two weekends also.

I agree that the camp has swelled in size but am curious to know in which way your colleague found it dangerous?


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2015)

> How is lobbing teargas into all this supposed to help?


 As a deterrent/war tactic...attack/threaten where vulnerable and the vulnerable (women/children/older people/the infirm) as a way of controlling the capable.


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## teqniq (Nov 10, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> Quite a few urbs have been doing the same  but helping out with other things like waste collections/distributions/building etc. Some of us are back there over the next two weekends also.
> 
> I agree that the camp has swelled in size but am curious to know in which way your colleague found it dangerous?


Sorry I'm not sure we only had a conversation in passing. I'll ask her next time I see her.


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## teqniq (Nov 10, 2015)

I am supposing some people here may have had direct experience of this but anyway spotted this gem the other day

Police have used anti-terrorism powers to detain UK volunteers taking aid to Calais refugee camp

Kent police in full of shit shokka



> A spokesperson for Kent Police said: “Kent Police does not give details of any groups or individuals stopped and searched at the borders.
> 
> “Our officers perform routine stop-checks, as is normal procedure, as part of our commitment to protect the public from harm.”


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2015)

'Routine' is the key word there. Routinely using anti-terrorism powers against humanitarian volunteers.  

And again, the police are happy to admit it


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> I agree that the camp has swelled in size but am curious to know in which way your colleague found it dangerous?



There are often big fights between different groups of people, or outbursts of retaliatory violence directed at nobody in particular. Then there's the police, who are not above pepper spraying volunteers and activists or just plain beating the shit out of them. Then there are the local fascists who are mostly just a nuisance but who have been known to physically attack activists and migrants. 

You are generally much safer as a European do-gooder in Calais than any of the migrants themselves are, for all sorts of reasons, but there are still risks. Most of the long-term no borders types I've met in Calais have developed a near-total disregard for their own safety tbh.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> There are often big fights between different groups of people, or outbursts of retaliatory violence directed at nobody in particular. Then there's the police, who are not above pepper spraying volunteers and activists or just plain beating the shit out of them. Then there are the local fascists who are mostly just a nuisance but who have been known to physically attack activists and migrants.
> 
> You are generally much safer as a *European do-gooder i*n Calais than any of the migrants themselves are, for all sorts of reasons, but there are still risks. Most of the long-term no borders types I've met in Calais have developed a near-total disregard for their own safety tbh.



I am aware of the possible and more general stuff, I was just asking about that particular person's specific experiences.

Also do you refer to yourself as a European do-gooder?


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## Libertad (Nov 10, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> As a deterrent/war tactic...attack/threaten where vulnerable and the vulnerable (women/children/older people/the infirm) as a way of controlling the capable.



Much the same as the present UK government's attacks on those in receipt of social security, though without the CS. There's always time though.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> Also do you refer to yourself as a European do-gooder?



No, but then I don't have a good word for what exactly 'we' are. Neither 'volunteer' nor 'activist' feels right, as both of them sort of imply that on some level I know what I'm doing. 

You'll not see me strutting about the jungle in a high-vis jacket, put it like that.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Much the same as the present UK government's attacks on those in receipt of social security, though without the CS. There's always time though.



Very much the same mindset in both cases I would say. Bombard, bewilder, do whatever you can to induce a sense of helplessness and isolation.

The piece I linked to earlier is titled 'a night of collective defiance' or something like that, which initially seemed a little flippant considering the consequences of that defiance for so many other people. But of course that's the whole reason the police do this shit, so that people forget about the mass mobilisation and mass action and focus only on the retaliation. That's what collective punishment is for. The French may remember such tactics from the treatment of their own people under nazi occupation.


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## cesare (Nov 10, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, but then I don't have a good word for what exactly 'we' are. Neither 'volunteer' nor 'activist' feels right, as both of them sort of imply that on some level I know what I'm doing.
> 
> You'll not see me strutting about the jungle in a high-vis jacket, put it like that.


You've been doing this for years though, Frank. Probably got more experience than most.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2015)

cesare said:


> You've been doing this for years though, Frank. Probably got more experience than most.



Yes and no. I'm not usually there for long periods of time, because I'm a sensitive soul and I burn out easily. And every time you go the situation is different and you have to start from scratch figuring out what's going on.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> You'll not see me strutting about the jungle in a high-vis jacket, put it like that.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, but then I don't have a good word for what exactly 'we' are. Neither 'volunteer' nor 'activist' feels right, as both of them sort of imply that on some level I know what I'm doing.



I think the term do-gooder has negative connotations and is dimissive, but then again maybe that's just me.

I use the term volunteer mostly because despite the fact it feels a little wrong too we go there voluntarily not to do 'good' but to do 'right' because we can.

You are  right that things and needs change quickly... I think the most any of us can do is not to be too precious/dogmatic and expect to learn each and every visit. Many needs are the basic ones we all share so those are a great starting place.


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## gosub (Feb 14, 2016)




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## panpete (Feb 14, 2016)

gosub said:


>



How  heartbreaking.
That made me cry, it really did.


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## panpete (Feb 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes and no. I'm not usually there for long periods of time, because I'm a sensitive soul and I burn out easily. And every time you go the situation is different and you have to start from scratch figuring out what's going on.


I still admire you. I would just be in tears all the time, or angry at the authorities who can just thoughtlessley bulldoze communities. Not only are they bulldozing temporary constructions, they are bulldozing all the love and solidaritary that has gone into not only building these constructions, but bulldozing all of the love that has gone into making what these buildings what they were, eg, restaurants, places of learning, places of worship, and places of love.


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## weltweit (May 19, 2016)

Didn't know exactly where to put this so I am putting it here:


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## SpookyFrank (May 19, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Didn't know exactly where to put this so I am putting it here:




Welcome

...for anyone who can offer their spare room to someone for a bit while they get their shit together. Your local refugee support organisations may run a simillar scheme.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 18, 2016)

Convoy of 250 vehicles with aid for the residents of the Calais jungle stopped at Dover & prevented from entering France. Here. Not that much news about it that I can find.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

So much for the free movement of people


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## quimcunx (Jun 18, 2016)

We've got on the ferry with a van load of food. Very few convoy people got on. Fingers crossed we won't get any hassle before we drop it off and we can get home ok.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Convoy of 250 vehicles with aid for the residents of the Calais jungle stopped at Dover & prevented from entering France. Here. Not that much news about it that I can find.


I understand that vehicles which were turned back are going to the French embassy to protest.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2016)

Mentioned on the news on R4 just now, briefly. The only quote was from the authorities, who apparently say that it had "the potential to cause violence", and also "facilitate the entry of illegal migrants".


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I understand that vehicles which were turned back are going to the French embassy to protest.


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## quimcunx (Jun 19, 2016)

I got co-opted into this. I usually do the litter pick weekends rather than donation deliveries.  I understand that there was importance in this convoy to show solidarity and draw attention to the continuing existence and plight of the refugees and this camp, however I think there was a tactical error.  At the rally point at Westminster wrt logistics we were told to tell the border control we were with the convoy and, if turned back, rejoin the queue at the back and keep coming. 

The convoy was a mixture of lorries and vans carrying donations and cars and minibuses carrying mostly supporters, rather than donations (many had passed donations on to go in the largest lorries).  IMO it would have been better to ask the solidarity supporters in cars to arrive branded as the convoy at Dover but the vans carrying donations to arrive unbranded thus increasing their chances of getting through.  For my money, once you've got a van full of donations the priority is delivering those donations. At Dover the convoy was filtered into 2 lines with a barrier between them and other vehicles. 

When they started getting turned back and everything ground to a halt they got out of their vehicles and protested.  Fair enough.  However very little aid got through, maybe even less than a normal saturday, I don't know. We arrived (half-accidentally) unbranded and were waved through to the non convoy queue.  We did get caught up in the protest but eventually were let through.

One of the largest lorries got through by going through the tunnel, but I understand the largest lorry was turned back. 

The group from the Shetland isles did get through; they got a ferry to Aberdeen, then to Zeebrugge, and drove from there!


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 19, 2016)

Thanks for the report quimcunx


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## panpete (Jun 19, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Convoy of 250 vehicles with aid for the residents of the Calais jungle stopped at Dover & prevented from entering France. Here. Not that much news about it that I can find.



 sickening, sadistic, sociopathic, insane.


Pickman's model said:


> So much for the free movement of people


yeah deffo


quimcunx said:


> We've got on the ferry with a van load of food. Very few convoy people got on. Fingers crossed we won't get any hassle before we drop it off and we can get home ok.


Fingers crossed to you x


FridgeMagnet said:


> I understand that vehicles which were turned back are going to the French embassy to protest.


Thumbs up 


FridgeMagnet said:


> Mentioned on the news on R4 just now, briefly. The only quote was from the authorities, who apparently say that it had "the potential to cause violence", and also "facilitate the entry of illegal migrants".


FFS to the fucking authorities


quimcunx said:


> I got co-opted into this. I usually do the litter pick weekends rather than donation deliveries.  I understand that there was importance in this convoy to show solidarity and draw attention to the continuing existence and plight of the refugees and this camp, however I think there was a tactical error.  At the rally point at Westminster wrt logistics we were told to tell the border control we were with the convoy and, if turned back, rejoin the queue at the back and keep coming.
> 
> The convoy was a mixture of lorries and vans carrying donations and cars and minibuses carrying mostly supporters, rather than donations (many had passed donations on to go in the largest lorries).  IMO it would have been better to ask the solidarity supporters in cars to arrive branded as the convoy at Dover but the vans carrying donations to arrive unbranded thus increasing their chances of getting through.  For my money, once you've got a van full of donations the priority is delivering those donations. At Dover the convoy was filtered into 2 lines with a barrier between them and other vehicles.
> 
> ...


I hope more unbranded vans can get thru, maybe the people's assembly could borrow their mates vans etc and get through that way. 
Fuck them bullying you into forming a queue, to piss you off deliberately.
Fair play to the protestors. This motivation by the authorities, is just sadistic and frankly, disturbing and sinister.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2016)

Hindsight is wonderful, and the need to make a visible statement is fair enough, perhaps making that statement from Calais would have been better though? Wasn't the whole convoy banned by the French before it even left London?


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Thanks for the report agent quimcunx


Fixed it for you.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Hindsight is wonderful, and the need to make a visible statement is fair enough, perhaps making that statement from Calais would have been better though? Wasn't the whole convoy banned by the French before it even left London?



Yeah, I posted about it on the other thread.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)

Quimmy is right...they knew there was gonna be difficulties getting through because of the ban so a revised plan was needed. More aid getting through because people blagged it at Dover would have been a victory of sorts...those without aid could still have done the protesty bits.


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## quimcunx (Jun 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Hindsight is wonderful, and the need to make a visible statement is fair enough, perhaps making that statement from Calais would have been better though? Wasn't the whole convoy banned by the French before it even left London?



It was banned a couple of days before and I immediately hoped my co-opter would be ok with unbranding so that our food would stand more chance of getting  through and so that we weren't left having to drive back with a struggling overloaded van store it somewhere and find another way to get it through at a later date.  I think a lot of the organisers and attendees may have been first timers but not all.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2016)

quimcunx said:


> It was banned a couple of days before and I immediately hoped my co-opter would be ok with unbranding so that our food would stand more chance of getting  through and so that we weren't left having to drive back with a struggling overloaded van store it somewhere and find another way to get it through at a later date.  I think a lot of the organisers and attendees may have been first timers but not all.




People live and learn. When doing things the authorities don't really like, always better to just do them and deal with it rather than telling them you're going to do it. Hopefully this weekend's experiences won't put people off trying again.


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## quimcunx (Jun 19, 2016)

It's difficult to find a balance and you are right about hindsight.  Visibility and the political is also important and helps keep people informed and engaged.  I don't want to sound too critical but it did frustrate me a little to see aid delayed.   And it worked out well for us.  It meant a shorter day (still a fucking long one!) as we weren't in a 250 long queue to drop off donations.


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## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

saying beforehand that it was going to be a 'rolling protest' when you know full well that such protests are banned is rather silly. If you are going to do that, at least make sure you have got the bulk of the actual aid in via other means - which seems to be what the far more experienced War On Want lot did. From everything I've heard, it is pretty much all the people who had actually been before and knew what they were doing, who made it through, and no one had bothered advising other participants properly. In one case, a carload did get through, but they took it straight to the camp, not the warehouse, and were surprised they couldn't just unload it there and then.


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## free spirit (Jun 19, 2016)

logistically that sounds like a nightmare for the warehouses as well, if 250 vehicles all rock up at once to be unloaded. I also wonder if the reason the warehouses have been posting up about being empty for the last few weeks has partly been because so many were holding stuff up until the convoy date, rather than going across as soon as they'd got a van load together.

Sounds well intentioned, but maybe not so well thought through to me.

Still good on you quimmy (and others), glad you got through ok.


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## quimcunx (Jun 19, 2016)

Not sure to be honest, free spirit . Maybe partly. I think it may have got people going who hadn't been before.  The few people I spoke to hadn't been before. Of course aid could have been indirectly diverted to the convoy but I'm not sure that many people who already do regularish runs were involved.  I don't really know tbh, I wasn't involved in it, just asked to go because I'd been before.  I do think it helped that I was already familiar with the situation there, belboid .  Until you've been it's hard to understand the hows or whys. I only really glanced at the PA and C4C convoy plans a couple of times weeks apart and was a bit dubious at original plans to distribute stuff at the camp etc.  I don't think all vehicles would have been carrying donations but it still would have been a statistical nightmare.


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