# Why don't US churches make a fuss about gun control instead of gays?



## Oswaldtwistle (Jul 15, 2009)

(just thinking out loud- don't take this too seriously)

Churches in America seem to make a big fuss over the passages in the Bible which condemn homosexuality, such as Leviticus 18:22, and on the issue of abortion.

But, despite the clear commandment 'Thou shalt not kill', you rarely hear anything from them on the issue of gun control*. Imagine what a national campaign against guns by the many church groups could do.....



*or is it something the campaign on already- it's certainly not something you hear about in the UK if they do.....


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## DotCommunist (Jul 15, 2009)

remember that there is no universal church in america. Not all are pro-guns and notall are massively anti-gay.

The vocal and christian right isn't the only game in town.

They are living proof of why it's better to burn heretics rather than send them off to a far away place,though


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## Oswaldtwistle (Jul 15, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> remember that there is no universal church in america.



Yes. To be fair, I did say 'the many church groups'


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## isitme (Jul 15, 2009)

because they are reflecting conservative views not challenging them


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## littlebabyjesus (Jul 15, 2009)

The political right has taken over sections of the church in the US. The churches have not infiltrated politics, political activists have infiltrates the churches.

It's important to remember this if you want to understand the religious right in the US.


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## Belushi (Jul 15, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> remember that there is no universal church in america. Not all are pro-guns and notall are massively anti-gay.
> 
> The vocal and christian right isn't the only game in town.
> 
> They are living proof of why it's better to burn heretics rather than send them off to a far away place,though



Yup, the nutters shout loudest but they're by no means the whole story.


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## Belushi (Jul 15, 2009)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The political right has taken over sections of the church in the US. The churches have not infiltrated politics, political activists have infiltrates the churches.
> 
> It's important to remember this if you want to understand the religious right in the US.



'The Southern Strategy', seems to be backfiring a bit now though.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 15, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> remember that there is no universal church in america. Not all are pro-guns and notall are massively anti-gay.
> 
> The vocal and christian right isn't the only game in town.



^This.

Plenty of churches got involved in the civil rights movement. 

There's one here that shows up every wednesday afternoon at the state capitol to protest the war in Iraq.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 15, 2009)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> ^This.
> 
> Plenty of churches got involved in the civil rights movement.
> 
> There's one here that shows up every wednesday afternoon at the state capitol to protest against the war in Iraq.



fixed to save my headache annoyance about transitive verbiage

I'm bloody glad they do though. The extreme wing of the US right came to undue prominence cos of the Reign of Bush. Sadly all US christian movements are know tarred with the lunatic-fringe label-even by european counterparts


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## mhendo (Jul 16, 2009)

There are a number of things going on here.

First, as others have noted, "the church" in America is far from monolithic, and there are a considerable number of liberal churches to balance the hardline conservatives. It is also geographic, not just is terms of large regions (north-east, south, etc.), but in terms of urban and rural. For example, there are quite a lot of city churches, especially in poor black and Hispanic communities, that have spoken out against gun violence and supported gun control.

Second, the fact is that, as with so many other social and political viewpoints, people on both sides of the gun control debate can find plenty of support and justification in the bible for their respective positions. While you are correct that "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the Commandments, the fact is that the bible also has plenty of stories in which killing is not presented as morally wrong, especially if it is done in the service of the lord. Look at the story of David and Goliath in the battle between the Israelites and the Philistines, for example. 

Also, moving beyond the bible, there are plenty in the US who feel that killing is not morally wrong under particular circumstances, such as self-defense or in cases of capital punishment for certain crimes. I don't necessarily subscribe to those positions, but there is nothing inherently unbiblical or unreligious about them. God is well-known for smiting his enemies on occasion in the bible, and some of these folks see themselves as doing god's work.

Of course, even individual churches in the United States don't always fall where one might expect on particular political issues. For example, a lot of urban black churches that support gun control, and that are generally supportive of liberal and Democratic politics, have also been very outspoken in opposition to gay marriage in America.


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## Oswaldtwistle (Jul 16, 2009)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The political right has taken over sections of the church in the US. The churches have not infiltrated politics, political activists have infiltrates the churches..



Hmm, interesting point. I didn't realise that




mhendo said:


> Of course, even individual churches in the United States don't always fall where one might expect on particular political issues. For example, a lot of urban black churches that support gun control, and that are generally supportive of liberal and Democratic politics, have also been very outspoken in opposition to gay marriage in America.



That doesn't neccesarily surprise me. The equivilant in the UK would proberbly be mosque groups who strongly opposed the war in Iraq, have sometimes worked with left wing or centre-left groups but, again, take very conservative positions on homosexuality (by which I mean not just opposing gay marriage but saying gay sex should be illegal)

Theres nothing really new here either. Years ago, the heartlands of the British Labour movement were in the Welsh valleys, with its roots in Methodism and a fairly socially conservative world view.

But then of course the world doesn't neatly break down into the liberal left and the conservative right with every member of a minority or the working class joining the former grouping.


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## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2009)

Because guns don't _kill people_ - as in the commandment. And the bible is full of calls to kill and tales of heroic massacres and genocide. If the argument is that christians should be fundamentalists over what the bible tells them to do (or that fundamentalists stick to _all_ the rules) then there's plenty of wriggle room for just about every possible postion. That's on the level of dogma - the real social reasons are self-evident i think.

edit: balls, just bascially repeated one of the points that mhendo made.


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## argenteum (Jul 16, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Because guns don't _kill people_ - as in the commandment. And the bible is full of calls to kill and tales of heroic massacres and genocide. If the argument is that christians should be fundamentalists over what the bible tells them to do (or that fundamentalists stick to _all_ the rules) then there's plenty of wriggle room for just about every possible postion. That's on the level of dogma - the real social reasons are self-evident i think.



Apparently (according to certain scholars on the subject) the proper way of translating 'thou shalt not kill' is 'thou shalt not *murder*'. Pretty easy to see where this interpretation can allow a huge difference in what you are allowed to do - notions such as Texas' "castle doctrine" become perfectly alright.


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