# Cardiff Bay Incinerator - public meeting, Sat 7th Feb



## Col_Buendia (Feb 4, 2009)

Received a flyer through the door this afternoon from Cardiff Friends of the Earth, inviting me to a public meeting to discuss the plans for an incinerator in Cardiff Bay. The incinerator has been mentioned on these here boards before, but now the planning application has been lodged, and it seems things are moving "forward".

The meeting is in Splott Road Methodist Church, 69B Splott Road, at 10am Sat 7th Feb. Details of meeting on FOE site here: http://www.foecardiff.co.uk/content/pact-community-meeting-incinerator-0

Intererstingly, the company planning to run the incinerator will be represented at the meeting. I wonder how they will "sell" it to the local community who will be breathing the smoke from the plant...?

If anyone has any good links about why an incinerator might not be a good idea, post 'em up here!


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## PAD1OH (Feb 4, 2009)

I wish I could be there but I wam away this weekend.....


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## lewislewis (Feb 5, 2009)

I don't want to come across as being pro-incinerator, but what other options are there for stuff that can't be recycled?? We can't landfill it surely?


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## zog (Feb 5, 2009)

it's not just cardiff waste that they'll be burning though from what i recall. I think they'll be shipping it in from all over. maybe even english waste!


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## PAD1OH (Feb 5, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> I don't want to come across as being pro-incinerator, but what other options are there for stuff that can't be recycled?? We can't landfill it surely?




we can't even recycle lots of the stuff we send to recycle these days


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## 1927 (Feb 5, 2009)

Friends of the earth just like making a fuss tho, gives them something to live for!!

They don't want anymore nuclear power stations, fair enough. A severn barrage is proposed instead and they dont like that! Wind farms in Cardigan bay, another bad idea according to them. Coal fired, nah, opencast bad! 

OK then come up with some ideas instead of just moaning about everyone elses.


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## penderyn2000 (Feb 5, 2009)

I suggest people here get informed before criticising the campaign, which is of concern not only to FOE but thousands of residents of Splott, Tremorfa and Adamsdown, areas which already have high levels of dioxins because of the steelworks.  Yes, there are alternatives.  Let's hope the meeting is well-attended - I'll certainly be there.


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## free spirit (Feb 5, 2009)

check out the BAN Waste website for loads of info about incenerators, from the successful community campaign that got Byker incinerator closed down, and newcastle city council and env agency prosecuted for all sorts of shenanegans.


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## ddraig (Feb 5, 2009)

1927 said:


> Friends of the earth just like making a fuss tho, gives them something to live for!!
> 
> They don't want anymore nuclear power stations, fair enough. A severn barrage is proposed instead and they dont like that! Wind farms in Cardigan bay, another bad idea according to them. Coal fired, nah, opencast bad!
> 
> OK then come up with some ideas instead of just moaning about everyone elses.



so you are fine with your boy breathing in toxins are you? 

what's the  for??? 
grow up eh, even you must see that things like this need to be challenged, or is it just cos it's not in your back yard you feel it's ok to take the piss?


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 5, 2009)

Wot ddraig said. Grow up, 1927. I've a little boy a smidge older than your bundle of joy, as does Penderyn2000, and I sure as hell don't want him breathing in the shit that a new incinerator will be pumping out. Try doing a little research of your own before you casually dismiss other people's efforts to improve life for all of us (how selfish of them!). Although I know you won't read it, have a look at FOE's briefing on Incineration and Health Issues:

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/incineration_health_issues.pdf

There's enough in there to at least make you question this on the precautionary principle alone.

Interestingly, representatives from the company planning to build & run the incinerator, Viridor, will be at this meeting, as will "Good Relations", a PR firm who belong to "Chime Communications", the PR company run by none other than Thatcher's own advertising exec, "Baron" Tim Bell. So I'm sure the residents of Splott will have no problem making their case in the face of high-rolling Oxbridge PR graduates shipped in for the day.

See you there.


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 5, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> I don't want to come across as being pro-incinerator, but what other options are there for stuff that can't be recycled?? We can't landfill it surely?



If we stopped _producing_ the rubbish, then we wouldn't have to burn it _or_ bury it.


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## m4rk (Feb 5, 2009)

is it an incinerator or a CHP?


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## ddraig (Feb 5, 2009)

wot's a CHP?
afaik it is an incinerator


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## 1927 (Feb 5, 2009)

m4rk said:


> is it an incinerator or a CHP?



I had assumed that it was a CHP type affair, hence my rant about FoE objecting to any development even if it was an alternative power source. My apologies.


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## free spirit (Feb 5, 2009)

1927 said:


> I had assumed that it was a CHP type affair, hence my rant about FoE objecting to any development even if it was an alternative power source. My apologies.


it is a 30 megawatt CHP energy from waste set up, (supposedly) burning what's left over in municipal waste after recyclables and compostables have been removed.

company FAQ here


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## lewislewis (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm pretty much a FoE supporter. I'm holding my fire on this until I know more.


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## Udo Erasmus (Feb 6, 2009)

Badly, since I was pestering FoE over a year ago when the plans were first being mooted to set up a campaign and we even had an initial meeting, I haven't been involved that much - too busy recently - other than joining a Green Santa in handing in lots of letters of complaint from local residents just before Xmas, but there's lots of info on the background issues on FoE's website.


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 6, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> I'm pretty much a FoE supporter. I'm holding my fire on this until I know more.



Are you coming to the meeting? We could chat about it - wow, "irl", as they say in the real world!


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## Udo Erasmus (Feb 6, 2009)

Here's some eco-stuff going on in the coming 6 weeks or so.

TRANSITION CONVERSATION 
Monday 9 February 7 - 9 pm
Demseys Pub, Castle Street
Entry: £2 on the door (to cover cost of hiring room)

Steve Garrett from the Riverside Market will be showing a film that he recently made when researching urban agriculture in Cuba, and describing the lessons that could be learnt from this in Cardiff. Followed by an opportunity for questions and facilitated discussion.

HUNGRY CITY - HOW FOOD SHAPES OUR LIVES 
Author Carolyn Steele speaks on the subject of her acclaimed book
Tuesday 17 February, doors open at 6.45 pm
Cardiff Lifelong Learning Centre, Senghenedd Road

Whatever its mercurial promise of bright lights, shared experiences and multicultural exoticism, the city can be an isolating place. However: everyone's got to eat - and therein lies the opportunity both for life-enhancing human engagement and for equally life-sapping process-led commercialism. Carolyn Steel's book, which interprets the city through food, highlights both the despair and the hope implicit in the idea of the city. By her clever tracing of food's journey from land to urban table and thence to sewer, Steel makes us reflect on past and present social satisfactions and injustices which our most basic human need can inspire. 

Read review here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hungry-City-Food-Shapes-Lives/dp/0701180374 

ECO POET TALK/PERFORMANCE
Wednesday 25 February at 7:00pm.
Beverton Lecture Theatre, Main Building, Cardiff University, Park Place
Hosted by People & Planet

Susan Richardson, Cardiff-based eco poet, performer and educator

CAMPAIGN AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE TRADE UNION CONFERENCE
Saturday 7 March, London

More information here: http://cacctu.wordpress.com/ 
www.campaigncc.org

ROB HOPKINS - FOUNDER OF THE TRANSITION MOVEMENT 
Thursday 12 March at 7 pm
Temple of Peace, Edward VII Avenue

Rob Hopkins who is widely considered the 'founder' of the Transition Town Movement will bring the ultimate transition talk to Cardiff. Covering the foundations of why climate change and peak oil need urgent action and an outline why and how transition can provide some inspiration in working towards solutions, he'll also present a few examples of what Transition projects around the UK are up to. 
Tickets £4, £3 concessions (details about where to buy tickets will be circulated nearer the time)

SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT & CLIMATE CHANGE
Implications for how we live and work
Friday 20 March, 2 - 3.30 pm
Shandon Lecture Theatre, Main Building, Cardiff University

You must book in advance to attend - publicbookings@cf.ac.uk

Speakers - 
Andrew Simms - policy director of the new economics foundation
Mark Lynas - specialist on climate change and author
Andy Fryers - Greenprint Director of the Hay Festival

A unique opportunity to experience three of the most dynamic speakers discussing sustainable development, climate change and the implications for how we live and work. 

Combining economic expertise alongside climate change knowledge we explore what the options are to live a happy and low impact future. This lecture is part of the Hay Festival Greenprint Tour.

CLIMATE CAMP IN THE CITY, London

April 1st to coincide with the G20 gathering of world leaders in London, More info to follow!


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## lewislewis (Feb 7, 2009)

Col_Buendia said:


> Are you coming to the meeting? We could chat about it - wow, "irl", as they say in the real world!



Not this one, I was otherwise engaged doing some travelling and photography, but I do go to meetings quite often so i'd be fine with blowing my online cover to you.


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## shygirl (Feb 9, 2009)

Good luck with this campaign, guys.  See how they've chosen three poor, working class areas in Cardiff.  They wouldn't even get the idea off the ground if it was proposed for places like Radyr, Llandaff, Rwibina, etc.  I must make sure my mum knows about this, as she lives on Newport Road and loves Splott.  Hopefully, I'll get her to write a letter to her cllr and mp.  For what its worth.   

BTW, how did the meeting go.


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## jimadore (Feb 9, 2009)

*Burn  my rubbish*

I was  at the meeting at  splott,The suits were out in force, propaganda by P.R..professionals  {BULLSH-TERS } in the main hall big  screen t.v art-work the full monty. But cant' answer any questions 1 how many more lorrys on the roads ? reply only 240 a day  but you wont' notice , 2 will the locals have free heat or eletric,like they do in denmark? reply NO, we will sell that to the grid ,for big  profit. How safe is it how much dioxin will it produce ? reply not much blah blah blah Friends of the earth in the  small back room just a poster and a few leaflets, but they had the real facts this thing is a burning  nightmare. !!! I am not a green but putting  a {french} old fashion, incinerator, not far fom main city is stupid? all the money spent on Cardiff and the bay, who will live here with that on the doorstep????


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## ddraig (Feb 9, 2009)

shygirl said:


> Good luck with this campaign, guys.  See how they've chosen three poor, working class areas in Cardiff.  They wouldn't even get the idea off the ground if it was proposed for places like Radyr, Llandaff, Rwibina, etc.  I must make sure my mum knows about this, as she lives on Newport Road and loves Splott.  Hopefully, I'll get her to write a letter to her cllr and mp.  For what its worth.
> 
> BTW, how did the meeting go.



made this point at work and made a couple of people feel uncomfortable.
the nimbys in pontcanna etc would stop it dead with all the resources, influence and time on their well off hands. just stick it down by the poor people in the zona industrial, they're used to it mun!


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## Paul Shackson (Feb 10, 2009)

Hi,

I work on behalf of Viridor Waste Management on the proposed Energy from Waste plant for Trident Park.  I see that some of you have concerns about the proposed plant, and I’d like to try and help by providing a bit more information.

The technology in modern Energy from Waste plants is extremely safe and effective. The emissions from the plant would be strictly regulated by the Environment Agency and the entire treatment process is designed to meet and exceed the requirements not only of local air quality standards but also of the European Waste Incineration Directive. This directive sets very low limits for emissions to air from such facilities, to ensure the protection of human health and the local environment.

The Energy from Waste plant would only deal with residual municipal waste – this is what remains from household waste once materials which can be recycled and composted have been removed.  There would be a considerable cost if we didn’t to put in place a way of reducing our dependence on landfill sites.  The cost of burying waste in the ground increases every year as the landfill tax grows £8 per tonne a year; the landfill tax is predicted to be £48 per tonne by 2010.

Viridor’s proposals, if planning permission is received, would provide essential waste management services for local authorities and businesses in Cardiff and the immediate surrounding area only e.g. Caerphilly, Monmouthshire, Newport, and the Vale of Glamorgan.

Viridor identified Trident Park as the site for its Energy from Waste facility following a detailed selection process which investigated many potential sites.  The plant would be located on land previously used by Nippon Electric Glass (NEG), a heavily industrialised site with good transport links.  Our proposal is guided by the proximity principle; in effect, infrastructure to deal with waste should be built as near as possible to where that waste comes from and as Cardiff represents the biggest tonnage of waste in south Wales it makes sense to have the treatment process situated in Cardiff.  

More information can be found on Viridor’s consultation website: www.viridor-consultation.co.uk/cardiff

Regards,
Paul


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## PAD1OH (Feb 10, 2009)

Hi Paul,
Thanks for posting

Will the incinerator act as a disincentive for sustainable waste management, resource efficiency and minimisation?

Specifically what wastes are being burnt and how have you calculated and projected the input/flow of these waste over the coming years? I'm aware that statistics can be managed but there was information released by DEFRA that suggested that municipal waste production is dropping in the UK - http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=383423&NewsAreaID=2


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## llantwit (Feb 10, 2009)

That's the key question here isn't it PAD10H? I'd like to see if this corporate PR guy has any real answers to these questions, but I doubt he does. 
As you suggested above, the fact is that Viridor's business is dependent on a steady flow of waste, and therefore it's very reason for existing runs counter to plans towards waste reduction. Why would a company that makes money from burning household waste want to promote a reduction in net non-recyclable waste? Short answer, they wouldn't.

A have two simple questions for you, Paul:
1) As a concerned resident of Adamsdown with a young child I'm very worried about increasing pollution levels in the area that I live. Can you guarantee there won't be a detrioration in air quality in the areas surrounding the plant?
2) How much is Viridor spending on PR to convince us all that this is a good idea? If you don't have that info, what's your PR company's fee for providing the valuable "issue management" service that you do?

I am appalled that companies like this can throw so much cash at convincing people in (usually poor) areas that toxic gas is good for them. What's friends of the earth's budget on this, I wonder? I bet it's next to zero. I hope to God that a proper grassroots campaign develops against this. I for one am up for it. And I know there are many others in this area with real campaiging experience on issues like this. Lets give these bastards a headache that can't be stopped by a quick-fix corporate PR pill.


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## shygirl (Feb 10, 2009)

Paul, cheers for posting.  Why not take it to a less densley populated area?  The communities in the proposed areas have put up with factories (my father worked in Steelfab for years) and other shite for years.  Its really not fair, and the politicians don't seem to give a damn for these constituencies.


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## lewislewis (Feb 10, 2009)

Genuine question for Paul, if the incinerator goes ahead what effect will it have on the heating/energy bills of people that live in Adamsdown, Splott etc?

Will you agree to allow an independent non-political organisation to carry out air pollutant measurements around the site and neighbouring areas every 6 months, making the results of these public?


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## jimadore (Feb 11, 2009)

*cardiff rubbish burner*

hi paul  where do you live?  would you be happy if they build   a incinerator by you?  no probelms only 260 extra lorrys per day on your roads  bringing the rubbish , more greenhouse gases ultrafine particles and dioxins  to breath in  no probelm  if you wear a gas mask , if  you are  old, or suffer from any chest or  heart probelm?  {you wont for much longer, } see American reserch on incinerators. { death rates,}  for details .Toxic waste 12,000 +tons on our roads , Toxic ash that will blow about any where ,taken to toxic  landfill site in west country? What are the benifits??? none no free eletric, or heat most   companys  who make  incinerators and operate  them give  the  power free to the local commuity,{ not sell to the grid for extra profit  }what if any track record has viridor in this field? burning rubbish is not the way not near  main city please spread your pollution, else-where i.e france


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## Udo Erasmus (Feb 11, 2009)

Paul seems to have run away


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## Paul Shackson (Feb 12, 2009)

@PAD10H

The proposed Energy from Waste facility would process residual wastes after recyclables and other potentially useful materials have been removed.  Residual waste is everyday waste from homes, businesses and industry that remains after all practical efforts have been made to extract recyclable and compostable material.  No hazardous wastes would be processed at the facility.

The full capacity of the Energy from Waste plant – 350,000 tonnes per annum – takes into account the waste needs of the surrounding area and allows for successful waste prevention and for future increases in recycling rates (i.e. achieving the challenging recycling targets set by WAG).

There are twenty similar plants operating across the UK, and many more across Europe, which operate alongside high levels of recycling.

If planning permission is received, Viridor may be in a position to bid to provide waste management services to Prosiect Gwyrdd – a regional waste partnership bringing together Caerphilly Borough County Council, The County Council of the City and County of Cardiff, Monmouthshire County Council, Newport Council and Vale of Glamorgan Council.  The Welsh Assembly Government is providing funding to Prosiect Gwyrdd on the basis that a minimum of 70% recycling is achieved.


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## Paul Shackson (Feb 12, 2009)

@llantwit

The air pollution control system forms an integral part of the plant and will treat all flue gas prior to emission to ensure that emissions will meet the stringent EU Waste Incineration Directive (WID) (2000/76/EC) standards, and importantly would ensure that they do not compromise local air quality standards set by local authorities.

Viridor is supportive of waste prevention and recycling. It is one of the leading recycling companies in the UK and also supports waste prevention initiatives with local authority and private sector customers.  However, there is some waste that simply can’t be recycled or composted, and the proposed Energy from Waste plant would process these materials.  The proposed facility would use tried and tested technology and is designed to run alongside high levels of recycling.  There are many examples of such plants which operate alongside high levels of recycling (many EU countries with the best recycling rates have complementary higher usage of energy recovery for residuals), such as in Denmark, Holland, Sweden and there are twenty such plants safely operating in the UK.

Viridor remains committed to open, accountable and on-going dialogue with communities and stakeholders in all operation areas.  They have stated that they would establish a community liaison group at Trident Park should planning consent be granted.  

Fees are commercially sensitive so I can’t go into detail on those.


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## Paul Shackson (Feb 12, 2009)

@shygirl

Viridor decided to use a site in Cardiff because this is where the largest volume of waste in south Wales is created.

We chose Trident Park after considering many others using detailed assessment criteria. It is a heavily industrialised brownfield site, with good transport links, etc.  The site and its surroundings formed part of the East Moors Steelworks that closed in 1978. Following its reclamation the Nippon Electric Glass (UK) Limited developed a cathode ray tube components factory on the land, which ceased production in 2005.  

Also, the location of the Trident Park site, in close proximity to the civic centres of Cardiff and Cardiff Bay, represents an excellent opportunity for the implementation of a district heating scheme.


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## Paul Shackson (Feb 12, 2009)

@lewislewis

The Energy from Waste facility will generate significant amounts of energy and the potential exists to utilise excess heat generated by the facility in local homes and businesses.  Retro-fitting existing housing stock is unlikely to be financially viable or environmentally beneficial.  Discussions have already taken place and will continue in an attempt to secure potential heat users prior to the commissioning of the plant   The Energy from Waste facility will also generate up to 30 Megawatts of electricity a year to be exported to the National Grid.  Again it is unlikely that this will result in any difference to local household energy bills as there is no mechanism to influence this with the power companies.

The plant will be monitored by the Environment Agency – the Government regulator.  The air monitoring measurements data will be on public record at any given time and full transparency would operate via a site liaison group with community representatives.  What other organisation do you have in mind for monitoring?  Give me a call and we can discuss this further - 029 2034 0511


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## Paul Shackson (Feb 12, 2009)

@jimadore

I live in Cardiff, and there are a lot of benefits to the proposed Energy from Waste facility, including:
i)  It will divert a significant volume of waste away from landfill.  Landfill sites generate methane, which is a powerful greenhouse gas;
ii)  It will helps local authorities to meet the Landfill Directive diversion targets whilst offsetting the significant economic impact of increasing Landfill Tax;
iii)  The electricity generated will offset the emission of 43,500 tonnes of Carbon per annum which would otherwise be emitted through fossil fuel fired electricity generation.

The EC Waste Incineration Directive sets very stringent limits for the proposed Energy from Waste facility. The potential impact of emissions has been tested time and time again, not only in the planning arena, but through authorisations being granted by the regulators for the development of Energy from Waste facilities in urban environments.

There will be no hazardous waste processed at the site.

Energy from Waste facilities are extremely effective at preventing the production and release of particulates and dioxins and are only allowed to operate where dioxin levels equivalent to the existing background levels in urban soils.  Dioxins are actually emitted by a number of sources such as bonfires, jet engines, various industrial processes, and open fires in the home and energy from waste accounts for less than 1% of UK production.

The Transport Assessment has been carried out and has concluded that in total the facility will generate the movement of approximately 256 HGV vehicles per day i.e. 128 lorries going to the plant and 128 lorries leaving the plant.  In the context of the existing and forecast traffic flows, the additional trips generated by the Energy from Waste facility and its associated activities represent an increase of less than 3% on the existing flow of traffic on the adjacent highway network during peak times.  It is important to note that this is less traffic than used the site when it was the NEG plant.

Viridor is one of the UK’s leading recycling and waste management companies. It currently operates over 240 waste management facilities (including a clinical energy from waste plant next to Derriford Hospital in Plymouth) providing a range of services from recycling and composting through to waste treatment and disposal across the UK.  The technology provider chosen by Viridor for Trident Park is CNIM, which has built 8 out of the 20 operating plants in the UK and many more elsewhere.


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## poisondwarf (Feb 12, 2009)

Paul Shackson said:


> @jimadore
> 
> I live in Cardiff, and there are a lot of benefits to the proposed Energy from Waste facility, including:
> i)  It will divert a significant volume of waste away from landfill.  Landfill sites generate methane, which is a powerful greenhouse gas;
> ...




Where in Cardiff do you live though Paul? Is it near the proposed plant?


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## llantwit (Feb 12, 2009)

*Paul Shackson and his company*

@ Paul: Thanks very much for replying to us all Paul. I hope we can all keep this channel of communication open, and debate further as things progress.

@ all: In the interests of transparency, and in order that we all know who we're talking with, here's some info about him and his company...

Paul is an experienced PR professional who's worked on a number of projects with PR firms in London, and is now working for Good Relations Wales here in Cardiff. His previous clients include many public sectore groups, but also the oil company Total (famous for human rights  and environmental abuses worldwide).

From the GRW website: "Good Relations Wales is a leading edge communications consultancy. We apply strategic thinking to the process of creating, maintaining, enhancing and defending the reputation of private sector companies".

GRW specialises in (amongst other things) "community relations" and "crisis manageent". In PR parlance crisis management is all about managing crises in public perception of brands and corporations, not crises that affect you and me. Typical PR crises include the "management" of protest groups and environmental activists. At the moment Paul is involved with managing the community, but rest assured if we can get it together to raise some proper local awareness of the real picture around the incinerator, he'll quickly switch to "crisis management", and a full-on media war will begin in which the public and the PR firm vie for attention through the local press. The resources Viridor have at their disposal mean that they're advantaged from the start.

Amongst ther clients are Lafargue Aggregates (the concrete company - not an environmentally cuddly one, that), and the commercial property developer PMG who runs the Trident Park estate where they want to plonk the incinerator (so GRW has a 2nd vested interest in the incinerator itself in that another of its clients is the company selling the land).

Good Relations Wales is owned by Thatcher's favourite PR firm the industry giant Bell Pottinger, who have vociforously championed the nuclear power industry, BAE systems, McDonalds, Imperial Tobacco, and numerous dictators (recent ones including the Belarussian dictator Lukashenko - Lord Bell commented at the time "I don't see why my company should follow some arbitrary set of ethical values" -nice).

Bell Pottinger proudly claims to "advise clients in all the regulated sectors on how they can influence the political dynamics to the decisions that impact on their bottom line." In other words, , and their subsidiaries take money from rich businesses to try and influence politicians and the public so that these companies can become more profitable. 

The public interest is *not *the PR man's concern; the botom line of their client *is*. I'll be taking what this polite and patient man, who speaks of transparency and dialogue, says with a hefty pinch of salt. I suggest we all do.


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## poisondwarf (Feb 12, 2009)

llantwit said:


> @ Paul: Thanks very much for replying to us all Paul. I hope we can all keep this channel of communication open, and debate further as things progress.
> 
> @ all: In the interests of transparency, and in order that we all know who we're talking with, here's some info about him and his company...
> 
> ...




Very interesting reading, thanks for that llantwit.


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## Udo Erasmus (Feb 12, 2009)

Llantwit is so cynical


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## jimadore (Feb 12, 2009)

*What make the grass grow green in texas ?*

hi paul , silky smooth on you reply you are a P.R Guru,  When thy bury me from breathing , your  ultrafine dioxin or  heart and lung probelms . I will think what a nice man ? will you get planning permission / hope not, can you also do cremation {sideline} ?  you will have many customers, from your  polluting incinerator it will  make  plenty  of  sick people in Cardiff ,  American heart  asoc has all the  figures on the {deaths }caused by incinerators micro particals. The french people may need  one? but we dont !!! unless you give everyone in Cardiff free power for 20 years? and grow mushrooms in toxic waste.


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 12, 2009)

llantwit said:


> The public interest is *not *the PR man's concern; the botom line of their client *is*.



That's it in a nutshell. And I don't think anyone, Paul included, has any illusions about that. But I wonder how much the local community swallow the PR-coated line of the company. Obviously, the company's job is to make money, but they come along with a lot of pretty display boards showing us how much this plant will benefit the local community. As if it was some sort of altruism. And I wonder if it carries any weight with my less sceptical neighbours...? (Paul, by the way, your last display board showed a picture of Cardiff centre with a lovely green field in front of it - our green future? Except the shot you put up was of Penarth Moors - the other side of the river. Deliberate mistake?)

Paul, did it not embarrass you at the meeting on Saturday to overhear how your colleagues struggled to explain to people who have lived in Splott all their lives where the actual site is? I heard suits trying to orient pensioners with reference to Ocean Way, and the steel works. Goodness, all you had to do was tell them it was down the road from Splott Market and everyone would have known where you meant. Symbolic of the company's lack of understanding of the local community? I would say so.

There was quite a current of anger simmering under the surface at that meeting, and it will be interesting to see where this leads. I am intrigued by Paul's appearance on this thread, but I also wonder are we perhaps facilitating his research on behalf of the big guns at Viridor by sharing this conversation with him? Like Llantwit said, Paul has an agenda. I don't. I just want to breath fresh air and not have my son's future polluted. That's not an agenda. That's what everyone in the world wants.


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## llantwit (Feb 12, 2009)

Col_Buendia said:


> That's not an agenda. That's what everyone in the world wants.


... except Virador and the PR companies they employ.


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## penderyn2000 (Feb 13, 2009)

If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children.  I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going.  Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen.  I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.


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## llantwit (Feb 13, 2009)

penderyn2000 said:


> If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children.  I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going.  Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen.  I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.



I'll try and get to that with you, penderyn, but I can't promise at the moment because of newfound parenting duties.


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 13, 2009)

Llantwit junior, yesterday.


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## llantwit (Feb 16, 2009)

Oy! Privacy rules!!!?!
What about those paeditricians!! Scum out!!!1!

Justice4Maddie


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## ddraig (Feb 19, 2009)

Paul?


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## PAD1OH (Feb 19, 2009)

I'd just like to point out - I left this thread because I didn't want to discuss the issue with a PR rep who, in fairness did a good job, but didn't answer the question.

Someone sent me this



> Rathcoole incinerator proposal rejected
> 
> THE COMPANY behind a €250 million waste-to-energy plant proposed for Rathcoole in west Dublin is to meet its advisers this morning to see if there is any future for the plan, following announcement of its rejection yesterday by An Bord Pleanála.
> 
> ...


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## ddraig (Feb 19, 2009)

.


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 19, 2009)

ddraig said:


> Paul?



To be fair, I'm not sure Paul's had a direct question lobbed back at him. I did ask him some things in my earlier post, but as they were more about opinions, he might not have wanted to answer.

So, here's a direct question for Paul (in several parts):


Will the incinerator need a guaranteed supply of waste in order to operate at a profit?
If yes, will our councils be expected to sign a contract wherein they guarantee supplying a given quantity of waste?
If yes, and they subsequently fail to provide the contractually guaranteed supply, what sanctions might then be imposed on them?
And finally, if the incinerator requires a guaranteed supply of waste to burn profitably, how can that be reconciled with an ambition to increase recycling levels? Surely the guarantee of a waste supply to an incinerator imposes a ceiling on ambitions to increase recycling?

I'd be curious to know some answers to those questions.

Although I entirely empathise with PAD10H's comment, and am not sure about the wisdom of discussing this with Paul like this.


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## zog (Feb 19, 2009)

penderyn2000 said:


> If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children.  I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going.  Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen.  I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.



date noted.

also @ Paul. we'll be doing our best to fuck up your incinerator.


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## Col_Buendia (Mar 3, 2009)

penderyn2000 said:


> If Viridor had really done their research they wouldn't have picked the area where Llantwit, Col Buendia and I all live, all with young children.  I suggest we all get down to the next FOE meeting (3 March, Model Inn, 6.30) with a pile of our activist allies and really get this campaign going.  Viridor's lackey, please note, this incinerator is not going to happen.  I note you haven't replied to the question as to where you live but since you're obviously well remunerated for prostituting yourself to Viridor I think we can safely assume it isn't Splott, Adamsdown or Tremorfa.



Well, the Model Inn seems to be closed at the mo, and I was working tonight, but does anyone have anything to report from FOE? I'm out of touch at the mo, and I see Paul has dropped out of the thread, but I think we need to get a local group going about this...


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## lewislewis (Mar 9, 2009)

According to the Echo, a low-polluting waste cooker has been put up as a rival to the incinerators proposed by Viridor (Splott) and Covanta (Merthyr). Waste firm Sterecycle says that they would deal with 200,000 tonnes of municipal waste a year by essentially cooking it in a 40ft by 20ft steam cooker (called an autoclave) at the Newlands Road Industrial Estate in Trowbridge. The result would be that the metal and plastics would come out 'shiny' and could be sold to scrap metal dealers and reused, and the organic matter would come out as compost which could be used as a biomass fuel in a CHP facility on the site. Around 40 people could be employed.

Cardiff Friends of the Earth have apparently backed the plans. Enviroparks, a firm from Abergavenny, are also apparently going to propose a similar project. Some 'experts' are quoted in the paper saying that the recycled material produced by the steam cooker is low-grade and not very good.

This seems like a much cleaner alternative to me, than the bigger companies which would require far more waste than 200,000 tonnes to keep their energy facilities running. 200,000 is about the same amount of waste that the five nearby local authorities won't have the capacity to deal with, so it ticks the right boxes. I don't know much about the area but siting it on an industrial estate would seem like a sensitive and safe option.

Anyone know more about this?


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## jimadore (Mar 9, 2009)

Hi lewis lewis, Sounds the right choice to me, no toxic waste lorrys  on the roads, and no nasty dioxin in the air near the city


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## ddraig (Mar 9, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> According to the Echo, a low-polluting waste cooker has been put up as a rival to the incinerators proposed by Viridor (Splott) and Covanta (Merthyr). Waste firm Sterecycle says that they would deal with 200,000 tonnes of municipal waste a year by essentially cooking it in a 40ft by 20ft steam cooker (called an autoclave) at the Newlands Road Industrial Estate in Trowbridge. The result would be that the metal and plastics would come out 'shiny' and could be sold to scrap metal dealers and reused, and the organic matter would come out as compost which could be used as a biomass fuel in a CHP facility on the site. Around 40 people could be employed.
> 
> Cardiff Friends of the Earth have apparently backed the plans. Enviroparks, a firm from Abergavenny, are also apparently going to propose a similar project. Some 'experts' are quoted in the paper saying that the recycled material produced by the steam cooker is low-grade and not very good.
> 
> ...



it is sterecycle. the address on the planning application is Newlands Road, Wentloog and the number is 09/246E.
there are 4 or 5 large files with it


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## Col_Buendia (Mar 9, 2009)

Does anybody know anything about a FoE demo against the Viridor plan? I've heard a whisper from people who are on Facebook to say that there is something to this effect online, but I have to say that having left them my email at the last meeting, I find it wierd that they might be organising a demo and haven't bothered to email the very people who are most concerned about this...


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## ddraig (Mar 9, 2009)

Wales online story aboput Sterecycle (apparently backed by FoE)
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/c...on-city-s-incinerator-project-91466-23096879/


can't seem to copy the text! grrr

in other news...U2 to play millennium stadium


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## ddraig (Mar 9, 2009)

Col_Buendia said:


> Does anybody know anything about a FoE demo against the Viridor plan? I've heard a whisper from people who are on Facebook to say that there is something to this effect online, but I have to say that having left them my email at the last meeting, I find it wierd that they might be organising a demo and haven't bothered to email the very people who are most concerned about this...



looks like it was yesterday but
the echo today has a report on it with a pic of some peeps in dust masks and a complaint about an FOI request on viridor taking 4 months (so far)


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## Col_Buendia (Mar 9, 2009)

According to FoE Cardiff website:



> Join the peaceful demonstration before the planning committee meeting. Meet at 1.30 pm on Wednesday 11 March at the front entrance of City Hall in Cathays Park.
> 
> Bring placards, gas-masks, family and friends!



http://www.foecardiff.co.uk/content/stop-cardiff-incinerator-call-action

Apparently they also had a "demo" at Nye Bevin on Fri.

Jesus, with opposition organisation like this, where they can't even manage an email to their own supporters, Paul and Viridor must be pissing their pants laughing


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## Col_Buendia (Mar 11, 2009)

Update: I've now had an email and a phone call from FoE Cymru apologising for not having added my email to the list they put together after the meeting. Demo this afternoon at 1:30 outside city hall before the planning committee meeting.


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## llantwit (Mar 11, 2009)

Went this - was pretty ickle, really. But not bad for a lunchtime jobby, and the echo were there with a hack and a snapper.


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## lewislewis (Mar 12, 2009)

Does anyone have any more info on Friends of the Earth backing the sterecycle/steam cooker option?


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## llantwit (Mar 13, 2009)

News coverage of the FOE demo in the Echo:


> Protestors fight planned incinerator site in heart of city
> 
> Mar 12 2009 by Andrew Dagnell, South Wales Echo
> 
> ...


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 6, 2009)

Stop the Cardiff Incinerator

On Wednesday 15 April, Cardiff councillors are planning to decide whether or not a massive incinerator can be built between Splott and Cardiff Bay.

If they say yes, it will burn waste from across south Wales. This would mean more pollution, more lorries in Cardiff and more waste of valuable resources.

Show your opposition.

Join the peaceful demonstration before the planning committee meeting. Meet at 1.30 pm on Wednesday 15 April at the front entrance of City Hall in Cathays Park.

Bring placards, gas-masks, family and friends!

Make sure your councillors know how you feel.

For more information go to www.foecardiff.co.uk/incinerator


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## spacemonkey (Apr 6, 2009)

llantwit said:


> There are better and greener solutions


 
Any ideas what these are? Apart from the autoclave mentioned previously? 

Obviously 'produce less waste in the first place' is the main answer trotted out. But it takes time for society to change, we're already far behind our Landfill Directive targets and face heavy fines from the EU.

Although there are no mechanisms through the power companies for residents to get cheap leccy. Could there not be a one-off payment to compensate?


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## Col_Buendia (Jul 10, 2009)

Good news on the incinerator front. In a rare display of independence of thought, free from bribery by Big Bizniz, Cardiff Council's planning committee has apparently rejected Viridor's proposal to build the incinerator. 
http://www.letsrecycle.com/do/ecco....217&listitemid=52866&section=waste_management

Walesonline reported it as "suicide" - keeping up their one-sided coverage of the issue:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/2009/0...al-could-be-a-costly-decision-91466-24110209/


But on the other hand, they did manage earlier to print an unbelievably one-sided article which basically amounted to a free piece of public bullying from Viridor about what they'd do if they didn't get their way on this one:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...-incinerator-plan-is-rejected-91466-23997284/

So, is this the end of Viridor's plans, or shall we have round two?


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## ddraig (Jul 11, 2009)

it'll  be going somewhere else not too far in South Wales imo 'job creation in these difficult times' etc 

sterecycle, another big autoclave waste project in Cardiff had something approved this week



			
				Walesonline said:
			
		

> A LOW-POLLUTING waste plant has emerged as a rival to the controversial incinerators proposed as a long-term solution to South Wales’ waste crisis.
> 
> Waste management firm Sterecycle has submitted multi-million-pound plans to Cardiff Council for a giant steam pressure cooker to turn waste into a biomass fuel.
> 
> ...


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/c...on-city-s-incinerator-project-91466-23096879/
and the pr guff 






			
				pr-inside said:
			
		

> Sterecycle, a leading UK waste recycling technology company, is pleased to announce that it has been granted planning consent to build and operate a major new recycling plant at Wentloog, near Cardiff in Wales that will divert “black bag” household waste and unsorted commercial refuse from landfill.
> 
> Approval for the plant was given by Cardiff Council and paves the way for
> an investment of up to £50 million by the Company, creating 60 new long-term jobs for plant operators as well as employment for more than 100 during the construction phase. The plant, expected to commence commercial operations in spring 2011, will provide a clean alternative to mass burn incineration, a contentious local issue, as a means to achieving the UK’s obligations under the EU Landfill Directive.


http://www.pr-inside.com/sterecycle-secures-planning-consent-for-r1376189.htm


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 11, 2009)

Hey Col B, fancy coming round for a celebratory drink?


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## shygirl (Jul 17, 2009)

Fantastic news, guys.  Well done!


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## ddraig (Nov 4, 2010)

not so good news with the permit being granted today 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-11692083



			
				bbc said:
			
		

> The Environment Agency has given the final go-ahead for a controversial incinerator in Cardiff.
> 
> The £150m waste-to-energy plant in Splott, Cardiff required an environmental permit.
> 
> ...


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## teqniq (Dec 19, 2012)

Who is in charge of planning in Cardiff?



> Are the elected councillors in charge of planning in Cardiff or Viridor?
> 
> Viridor started building their incinerator in August 2012 without having met all the planning conditions set by Cardiff Council.
> 
> ...


 
please follow the link above for a form letter and a list of councilors to email


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## teqniq (Dec 19, 2012)

Also I received the following via email the other day, if anyone is inclined to register an objection:



> Town and Country Planning (General Development Procedure) Order 1995
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 
> ...


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## teqniq (Dec 23, 2012)

Had this by email today:



> CATI and our lawyers have found formal errors in the new 'consultation'; as we wait for the Council to correct them, the 26th December deadline for responses is invalid. But we'd like our supporters to write/e-mail back short responses, using points below.
> Most important is that the Council conceded in response to our lawyers' deadline, that 'enforcement' to stop Viridor is on the Agenda for the 9th January Planning C'ttee Meeting.
> We have to pay for our lawyers so far and expect they'll have to take legal action after 9th January. They set us to raise £3000 (not as much as other groups).  CATI would be most grateful for donations, as below, and will need to fundraise further in the New Year
> Points to make in responding
> ...


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