# London: the unlockening/relockening



## teuchter (May 29, 2020)

Thought it may be interesting to record what happens as London starts to attempt to return to something less abnormal, on a thread that those who are not interested in London specifics can ignore.

My observations over the past week or so are that it feels less busy the further into the centre you go. Outer London seems to be returning to relatively high levels of traffic. In zones 1 and 2 the roads are still fairly quiet. In residential areas parks are busy and not uncommon to see things like queues outside takeaways. The last few days I've definitely seen barbecues and suchlike, going on in back gardens.

Central London remains almost entirely deserted. Inside the congestion charge zone, hardly any traffic except buses. A fair bit of traffic on the roads immediately around it. Next to nothing open - spotted a couple of places in china town seemingly open for takeaways but it didn't look like they were getting much business.

Royal parks quite busy though.

Planes into Heathrow now and again but nowhere near 'normal' level.


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## Teaboy (May 29, 2020)

I've not left my local area for months.  I'm in SW London out in zone 4/5. 

The roads are definitely a lot busier.  We have a lot of parks round here and they are full of people mostly young families meeting up with other young families, they were well ahead of Johnson in deciding that they can all meet up and so far ahead they don't even need to bother with the 2m.

A lot of independent coffee shops have been open for a while for take away and in general if it wasn't for all the pubs and restaurants being closed you could probably be forgiven for thinking it was all normal.

Lot of posh white smug twats round here who think the virus doesn't apply to them.  They point to the very low number of deaths in the borough, I point to them to the fact we don't have a hospital in the borough that takes suspected covid patients...


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## Brainaddict (May 29, 2020)

I guess if you take the tourists, shopping, pubs and entertainment out of central London, there's not a lot going on. It's certainly got pretty busy again out here in zone 2


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## marty21 (May 29, 2020)

Hackney is busier over the last week or so, more pubs are doing takeaways,  so people are queuing with various bottles to get a beer , and then if the pub is near a park,  having it there. My local is starting it's beer & food takeaway service on Thursday with a TV Chef doing the food. Andy Oliver, who lives locally (often see her about)


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## teuchter (May 29, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I guess if you take the tourists, shopping, pubs and entertainment out of central London, there's not a lot going on. It's certainly got pretty busy again out here in zone 2


The Falun Gong protesters on Great Portland street were back in business when I went past the other day though.
And a lone man singing with a loudspeaker at Picadilly circus.
Zero hecklers outside Downing Street though.


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## bimble (May 29, 2020)

Very tempting to come in and just walk about and see central London empty like this.
Would be better if the human yoda statues are still there standing very still waiting for the tourists to come back.


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## Numbers (May 29, 2020)

marty21 said:


> Hackney is busier over the last week or so, more pubs are doing takeaways,  so people are queuing with various bottles to get a beer , and then if the pub is near a park,  having it there. My local is starting it's beer & food takeaway service on Thursday with a TV Chef doing the food. Andy Oliver, who lives locally (often see her about)


Is that Andi Oliver's sister?


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## marty21 (May 29, 2020)

Numbers said:


> Is that Andi Oliver's sister?


 

Yes


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## Pickman's model (May 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> Very tempting to come in and just walk about and see central London empty like this.
> Would be better if the human yoda statues are still there standing very still waiting for the tourists to come back.


died of starvation like all the office plants


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## Numbers (May 29, 2020)

marty21 said:


> Yes


She's popular in this house  
We recently cooked this Sweet potatoe roti with fried chicken, ital vegetables and rundown sauce by her.









						Fried chicken and ital veg recipe
					

All the flavours of the Caribbean are here in this delicious celebration dish that is perfect for a summer dinner party or special occasion meal.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## planetgeli (May 29, 2020)

I'm coming to London in 3 weeks! I'm so looking forward to the empty stree...oh.


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## T & P (May 29, 2020)

The almost total absence of traffic wardens during the lockdown in London has been glorious. I hope they will give some kind of warning before they start patrolling again.

I'm happy to report they're don't yet seem to be back at work in Lambeth (at leaast not in my area) or Chelsea. I saw one in Westminster last week but AFAICT if they're working there it is certainly not in full numbers. I guess next week things might change.


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## marty21 (May 29, 2020)

Numbers said:


> She's popular in this house
> We recently cooked this Sweet potatoe roti with fried chicken, ital vegetables and rundown sauce by her.
> 
> 
> ...


get over to the Crooked Billet in Clapton, from Thursday, surely it is an essential journey for you


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## Supine (May 29, 2020)

St Pancras and Euston are noticeably busier today. Still lots of space but now a couple of hundred people around rather than 5-10.


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## Numbers (May 29, 2020)

marty21 said:


> get over to the Crooked Billet in Clapton, from Thursday, surely it is an essential journey for you


Can make it so... one day, be lovely to have a pint with ya


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## Numbers (May 29, 2020)

As for the great unlocking, around this part of Newham it’s never truly been locked down unfortunately.


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## Schmetterling (May 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> Very tempting to come in and just walk about and see central London empty like this.
> Would be better if the human yoda statues are still there standing very still waiting for the tourists to come back.



I am sitting in Trafalger Square eating my Chinese takeaway lunch right now and I can confirm that there are no Yodas.


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## teuchter (May 29, 2020)

The most sinister thing in central london is the telecom tower with the illuminated 'control the virus' message scrolling around the top. When you see it looming over empty streets in the twilight it feels quite apocalyptic.


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## Schmetterling (May 29, 2020)

Update; well I can report that that pigeons are definitely out in Trafalger Square as one pooped on my shoulder.


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## Winot (May 29, 2020)

Currently in the office (Chancery Lane) to check the post (am popping in once a week). Surprisingly, there are a number of takeaways open for lunch. Also M&S Food. 

Main change I have seen over the lockdown period is increasing numbers of people using Santander bikes in Central London (e.g. around Parliament Square).


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## Teaboy (May 29, 2020)

Winot said:


> Main change I have seen over the lockdown period is increasing numbers of people using Santander bikes in Central London (e.g. around Parliament Square).



Likely because the chances of being knocked off and killed has moved out from 50/50 to 1 in 5.


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## Dogsauce (May 29, 2020)

Kind of still wish I lived in Zone 1, I could have been having a lot of fun tearing about on the bike. Or be dead of Covid.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 29, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Kind of still wish I lived in Zone 1, I could have been having a lot of fun tearing about on the bike. Or be dead of Covid.




Been thinking of taking my bike up to town for a burn up on empty streets, used to when I was at school, Sundays most shops were shut so could go from the west end through to the wastelands of docklands via the city with no traffic and no one to moan as you zoomed down steps in pedestrianised bits.


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## teuchter (May 29, 2020)

It's certainly quite nice going around on a bike in central london at present, especially in the evenings. Stopping for traffic lights and not much else.


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## IC3D (May 29, 2020)

Been cycling to work through Central London all through this. It was completely empty for a long time but last few weeks lots of people cycling around enjoying the empty streets in the evening.
Roads pretty reasonable in the mornings. Still mostly construction and NHS. Hopefully everyone else will stay at home on their laptops for a bit longer esp City boys, got a bit used to it .


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## pseudonarcissus (May 29, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It's certainly quite nice going around on a bike in central london at present, especially in the evenings. Stopping for traffic lights and not much else.
> 
> View attachment 215240


the light's green mate....were you out "testing your eyesight"?


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## teuchter (May 29, 2020)

I've also been cycling outwards ... from zone two to the edge of London and into the green belt. I tried doing this once or twice pre-corona but it's pretty miserable cycling through endless suburbia on polluted streets amongst angry van drivers and gave up on it.

Early-ish in the lockdown I tried it and it was completely different - roads almost clear all the way out and back in again. Since then the traffic has gradually returned, most notably once you get beyond z3. However, it's prompted me to refine some routes that avoid busy roads as much as possible and maybe I'll be able to continue using them.


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## William of Walworth (May 29, 2020)

Good thread idea.

I'm rarely in London nowadays even in normal times, since I exiled myself to West Wales back in 2008 

But still having the '*of Walworth*' Urban name for pre-Wales and seventeen-year-long reasons  , I'd like to keep up 

Moar laters


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## Artaxerxes (May 30, 2020)

Fuck knows what's going to happen to the various tourist sights next few months.



Teaboy said:


> Likely because the chances of being knocked off and killed has moved out from 50/50 to 1 in 5.



Number of people I see texting while riding those in heavy (moving) traffic gives me doubts as to humanities future.

Mad gits...


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## SpookyFrank (May 30, 2020)

Numbers said:


> She's popular in this house
> We recently cooked this Sweet potatoe roti with fried chicken, ital vegetables and rundown sauce by her.
> 
> 
> ...



Is it still ital if you serve it with fried chicken


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## hash tag (May 30, 2020)

I still haven't been outside but I do know a neighbouring construction site continued working throughout 
The 24 hour working started on the Thames Tideway Tunnel last week which we can hear throughout the night 
We have heard the odd helicopter coming and going and have regularly seen and heard the chinooks flying over, always in pairs.
I see parking restrictions are now being enforced again and buses are slowly returning to front door loading again, which means people
will have to start paying again. Drivers will try and limit passengers to 20 on a double decker - I wish them well with that








						Front-door boarding will start being reintroduced on London buses from Saturday
					

London's buses are set to resume front door boarding following the introduction of new safety measures aimed at minimising the coronavirus risk to…




					www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk


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## tommers (May 30, 2020)

Been walking the dog in our local park and it's been noticeable that there have been loads more people in large groups drinking and having barbecues recently.

Traffic is almost back to pre-covid levels too.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> Very tempting to come in and just walk about and see central London empty like this.



this tweeter account may appeal






						London After People (@PeopleAfter) on Twitter
					

The latest Tweets from London After People (@PeopleAfter). London After People is the name of @MonicaAnnWalker Project for documenting Life in the Time of Corona in the fair city of London, UK, 2020. London, U.K.




					twitter.com


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## clicker (May 30, 2020)

Daytime traffic is definitely busier. But it still quietens  down massively after about 8pm. Leads me to believe it's mostly work related traffic, not 'going out out' traffic. No one travelling home from pubs, restaurants and theatres etc leaves the roads empty in the evenings. 
Buses going past during the day never seem to have more than 10 passengers, half or more of them wearing masks. As mentioned above, good luck limiting buses to 20 passengers once schools and non essential workers go back.


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## Cerv (May 30, 2020)

I don't see how it'll work. 
if the driver keeps the front door closed to restrict boarding, some people will just jump on the middle & back doors rather than wait for the next. it already happened all the time in pre-covid days when buses were genuinely full to bursting.


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## hash tag (May 30, 2020)

Our stop is in the middle of a route, one bus arriving from Roehampton on it's way to Victoria, the other comes from Tooting. 
Sometimes Mrs Tag has to get two buses to work or back home, changing at Vauxhall. I imagine any bus coming in to Vauxhall will have if full complement of passengers on arrival.
It will not be easy.


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## teuchter (May 30, 2020)

clicker said:


> Daytime traffic is definitely busier. But it still quietens  down massively after about 8pm. Leads me to believe it's mostly work related traffic, not 'going out out' traffic. No one travelling home from pubs, restaurants and theatres etc leaves the roads empty in the evenings.
> Buses going past during the day never seem to have more than 10 passengers, half or more of them wearing masks. As mentioned above, good luck limiting buses to 20 passengers once schools and non essential workers go back.


Matches my observations. 

I've noticed also in the past few weeks, while traffic is gradually returning on weekdays, it's been a lot quieter at weekends. Going out for a ride this afternoon, will see if that's changed now.


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## scifisam (May 30, 2020)

I haven't been outside often enough to notice the difference on any street beyond mine, but my street has got noticeably busier in the last couple of days. It's generally a quiet road anyway, because it's a no-through road, but I hadn't realised that in the last few weeks it's been essentially silent. Suddenly there are loads of people walking past, particularly in the evening, and the tube station we're en route to is still closed, so it's not that.

Not sure why there's such an increase. Maybe people are spending the last of their furlough leave having garden parties? The other side of the road is almost entirely shared houses with young people in their twenties and thirties, so they wouldn't have been able to socially isolate from each other which would make the dangers of socialising feel less immediate, and they probably see themselves as low risk. But they have gardens, so can have socially distanced parties, except for getting through to the garden through the house.  

This is zone 2 but not far from zone 1.

A friend of mine lives just under the Shard and her photos are still mostly of empty streets.


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## William of Walworth (May 30, 2020)

I'm likely to make a (very rare) visit to London in the Autumn -- November-ish, most likely (??).

My best London friends** (fellow India-goers with me in early 2018) will be organising a commemoration and celebration of the life  of our late co-India-goer Andy -- cancer got him in January, and he was only 51   

**ETA : Non-Urban ones I mean!

I suspect that there's a fair chance by then that in London things _could_ be back to normalish (  ), but I'm going to have to keep an eye on this thread as it progresses.

Cheers for posting, all


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## marty21 (May 30, 2020)

Walked up to Clissold Park in Stoke Newington this afternoon. It was like a music festival there,  loads of folk. Also noticed a few more pubs selling takesway beer. One was doing great business at Hackney Downs, it's right by the park. Noticed a more back street boozer was serving in plastic glasses and drinkers were just sitting outside on newly installed benches & tables


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## alsoknownas (May 30, 2020)

marty21 said:


> Hackney is busier over the last week or so, more pubs are doing takeaways,  so people are queuing with various bottles to get a beer , and then if the pub is near a park,  having it there. My local is starting it's beer & food takeaway service on Thursday with a TV Chef doing the food. Andy Oliver, who lives locally (often see her about)


Remind me to introduce you to her some time.  She's very lovely, and an old friend  .


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## scifisam (May 31, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm likely to make a (very rare) visit to London in the Autumn -- Novermber-ish, most likely (??).
> 
> My best London friends** (fellow India-goers with me in early 2018) will be organising a commemoration and celebration of the life  of our late co-India-goer Andy -- cancer got him in January, and he was only 51
> 
> ...



If you still can't make a visit to London in November for corona reasons then we'll have bigger problems to worry about. Come here and let us know when you do


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## Cerv (May 31, 2020)

Camden market is reopening tomorrow. with a one way system, more queuing, and crowd control wardens. 

going to be weird without the million teenage tourists packing the place out. amazed they think it'll be worthwhile.


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## Ms T (May 31, 2020)

I’m in work in central London once a week and it’s quite eery. OnTuesday I ate my lunch in Cavendish Square and was the only person pretty much without a hi-vis vest and work boots.


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## nagapie (Jun 1, 2020)

I am on the bus. Boarding from the front again with some tape over the air vents of the driver's carriage; I would not be happy about that if I was a bus driver.


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## T & P (Jun 1, 2020)

Traffic wardens are back at worth in Lambeth.


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## marty21 (Jun 1, 2020)

Walked down Lea Bridge Road in Hackney  this morning at about 8.00am, before lockdown it was very busy at that time of the morning, during lockdown, initially it was very quiet, you could cross without bothering with traffic lights - this morning it was back almost to pre lockdown traffic.  A bus passed me  it was not full, maybe 10 people upstairs, and couldn't really see the downstairs but it didn't look packed. It had sign in front saying 'Bus Full' , looks like they are only letting a certain number of passengers on before declaring it full.


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## Hollis (Jun 1, 2020)

Get the impression people are in very different places psychologically with coming out of lockdown - I've been communting into work at a school using public transport throughout, so I have to say I'm fairly blaise/fatalistic about it.  But started a new job today, also in education, in they seemed rather horrified that I'd been using public transport, and more or less told me I should still be working from home..


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## smokedout (Jun 2, 2020)

I went for a walk round the newly re-opened Camden Market earlier although open is a bit of an over statement.  Most of the table top stalls at the top of the market by the lock were open but there wasn't anyone buying anything as far as I could tell.  A few of the food stalls had opened, and a few more looked like they were preparing to restart trading and there were some people sat at the tables having a coffee or something, but not many and mostly Camden type people and local workers not visitors.  I guess because the tables are communal then it creates a kind of loophole so once word gets round the food and drink places might do alright given they're about the only places in London you can sit at a table and have a snack or drink - no bars open though, although it was only 1pm.

Inside the market was deserted, the traders haven't come back and neither have the punters.  I doubt more than one in twenty units were open and quite a few looked like they'd been stripped of stock and fittings and have probably closed down already.  I think the legality of them opening might be a bit questionable giving lots of the units on the market are basically small shops but the odd one was trading, as was one of the tourist tat shops on the High Street.  The indoor parts of the market were all still closed and fenced off.  Was quite weird walking round the deserted passageways that would usually be rammed with people.

It's hard to see how it can survive on the scale it once was.  Ironically Camden could do with a decent market, there's a lot of social housing round there and not that much infrastructure for non tourists.  It wouldn't surprise me if temporarily at least it becomes more geared to the local community, I hope so, although probably more like Portobello Road with no doubt a load of foodie shit for the residents of the newly built posh flats and the antique shops surviving.  It also wouldn't surprise me to see big brands take over the High Street, it was happening already and there's probably quite a few will be happy to withstand a couple of lean years in order to get a foothold on Camden High Street.  That depends though on whether London will be able to support another high end hyper-gentrified retail zone, which doesn't seem as guaranteed as it once was.  I guess it's daft to make predictions except that Camden, along with other central London districts, are going to look very different in a couple of years.  In the meantime if you've ever fancied running a stall on Camden Market I reckon the rents are going to be pretty cheap for a while.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2020)

Ms T said:


> I’m in work in central London once a week and it’s quite eery. OnTuesday I ate my lunch in Cavendish Square and was the only person pretty much without a hi-vis vest and work boots.


I suppose you'll have them on next time you eat your lunch there


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I went for a walk round the newly re-opened Camden Market earlier although open is a bit of an over statement.  Most of the table top stalls at the top of the market by the lock were open but there wasn't anyone buying anything as far as I could tell.  A few of the food stalls had opened, and a few more looked like they were preparing to restart trading and there were some people sat at the tables having a coffee or something, but not many and mostly Camden type people and local workers not visitors.  I guess because the tables are communal then it creates a kind of loophole so once word gets round the food and drink places might do alright given they're about the only places in London you can sit at a table and have a snack or drink - no bars open though, although it was only 1pm.
> 
> Inside the market was deserted, the traders haven't come back and neither have the punters.  I doubt more than one in twenty units were open and quite a few looked like they'd been stripped of stock and fittings and have probably closed down already.  I think the legality of them opening might be a bit questionable giving lots of the units on the market are basically small shops but the odd one was trading, as was one of the tourist tat shops on the High Street.  The indoor parts of the market were all still closed and fenced off.  Was quite weird walking round the deserted passageways that would usually be rammed with people.
> 
> It's hard to see how it can survive on the scale it once was.  Ironically Camden could do with a decent market, there's a lot of social housing round there and not that much infrastructure for non tourists.  It wouldn't surprise me if temporarily at least it becomes more geared to the local community, I hope so, although probably more like Portobello Road with no doubt a load of foodie shit for the residents of the newly built posh flats and the antique shops surviving.  It also wouldn't surprise me to see big brands take over the High Street, it was happening already and there's probably quite a few will be happy to withstand a couple of lean years in order to get a foothold on Camden High Street.  That depends though on whether London will be able to support another high end hyper-gentrified retail zone, which doesn't seem as guaranteed as it once was.  I guess it's daft to make predictions except that Camden, along with other central London districts, are going to look very different in a couple of years.  In the meantime if you've ever fancied running a stall on Camden Market I reckon the rents are going to be pretty cheap for a while.


Honestly can't see how the market can survive in anything like its previous form either - so hugely tourist-dependent, and that won't come back for a long time.

I've seen that Shepherds Bush Market is gradually re-opening (though closing early) but that's actually a working market and gets its money from locals, plus some occasional fabric buyers. Similarly the fabric shops on Goldhawk Road next to it are re-opening.

I love the shops in the market but most of them are oppressively tiny and packed at the best of times and I'm not sure I want to go back to that environment right now.


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## William of Walworth (Jun 2, 2020)

I'd be interested to know how East Street Market (SE17) will be getting on ... 

It was always very much a local market in my day, not at all tourist!


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## T & P (Jun 2, 2020)

I think Londoners have now abandoned any notion of essential travel only. In my way home this evening from Chelsea to Tulse Hill the roads were at full pre-lockdown levels. And on streets running parallel to parks and commons there's actually more pedestrians about than there were before lockdown on a typical weekday. But then again given that we've only recently been granted unlimited leave to be out and about after several miserable weeks, and that a great many people must be furloughed or out of work, that's no surprising.

However I had to go to Mayfair at lunchtime and the streets there remain at zombie apocalypse level of emptiness.


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## Ms T (Jun 2, 2020)

No one really on the tube either this morning at 9am or at 8pm tonight.


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## pseudonarcissus (Jun 2, 2020)

T & P said:


> Traffic wardens are back at worth in Lambeth.


I agree, they’re  worth every penny...bless ‘em


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## quimcunx (Jun 2, 2020)

Ms T said:


> No one really on the tube either this morning at 9am or at 8pm tonight.



Has that been typical of the last few weeks? 

I heard something about avoiding busy times that I didnt quite catch but they seemed to be earlier than standard rush hours eg avoid 6.30am to 7.30am. Either people avoiding rush hour or the people who cant wfh so happen to travel at those times.


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## marty21 (Jun 2, 2020)

I haven't got any public transport since a bus on March 23rd , I'd get on a bus if I have to , but still don't fancy getting on a tube or train.


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## quimcunx (Jun 2, 2020)

marty21 said:


> I haven't got any public transport since a bus on March 23rd , I'd get on a bus if I have to , but still don't fancy getting on a tube or train.



A lot of buses are empty but some have lots on them. Depends on time and destination maybe.   I'd maybe get on an empty one at a push.


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## Spymaster (Jun 3, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I went for a walk round the newly re-opened Camden Market earlier although open is a bit of an over statement.  Most of the table top stalls at the top of the market by the lock were open but there wasn't anyone buying anything as far as I could tell.  A few of the food stalls had opened, and a few more looked like they were preparing to restart trading and there were some people sat at the tables having a coffee or something, but not many and mostly Camden type people and local workers not visitors.  I guess because the tables are communal then it creates a kind of loophole so once word gets round the food and drink places might do alright given they're about the only places in London you can sit at a table and have a snack or drink - no bars open though, although it was only 1pm.
> 
> Inside the market was deserted, the traders haven't come back and neither have the punters.  I doubt more than one in twenty units were open and quite a few looked like they'd been stripped of stock and fittings and have probably closed down already.  I think the legality of them opening might be a bit questionable giving lots of the units on the market are basically small shops but the odd one was trading, as was one of the tourist tat shops on the High Street.  The indoor parts of the market were all still closed and fenced off.  Was quite weird walking round the deserted passageways that would usually be rammed with people.
> 
> It's hard to see how it can survive on the scale it once was.  Ironically Camden could do with a decent market, there's a lot of social housing round there and not that much infrastructure for non tourists.  It wouldn't surprise me if temporarily at least it becomes more geared to the local community, I hope so, although probably more like Portobello Road with no doubt a load of foodie shit for the residents of the newly built posh flats and the antique shops surviving.  It also wouldn't surprise me to see big brands take over the High Street, it was happening already and there's probably quite a few will be happy to withstand a couple of lean years in order to get a foothold on Camden High Street.  That depends though on whether London will be able to support another high end hyper-gentrified retail zone, which doesn't seem as guaranteed as it once was.  I guess it's daft to make predictions except that Camden, along with other central London districts, are going to look very different in a couple of years.  In the meantime if you've ever fancied running a stall on Camden Market I reckon the rents are going to be pretty cheap for a while.



Nice write-up. I've been dipping in and out of The Lock whilst walking the dog for the last couple of months. We ventured above water level a couple of times last week but it was all closed.

Are you local smokedout ? I've been Camden/Primrose/Kuntish, for 25 years.

Fancy a socially distanced beer?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 3, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> I heard something about avoiding busy times that I didnt quite catch but they seemed to be earlier than standard rush hours eg avoid 6.30am to 7.30am. Either people avoiding rush hour or the people who cant wfh so happen to travel at those times.



think part of this was the initial stage of reducing tube and bus services (in part because a proportion of underground / bus staff were off sick / self isolating / shielding) was just to run saturday service every day, which requires less train drivers, but the service frequency doesn't really build up until after 9 am.  

i think they did even it out a bit after the first few weeks so that it was reduced frequency all day, but better than saturdays in the morning peak.  sorting this out (in particular constructing a complete new driver schedule) takes a bit of time...


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## quimcunx (Jun 3, 2020)

I heard it end if last week.


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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Has that been typical of the last few weeks?
> 
> I heard something about avoiding busy times that I didnt quite catch but they seemed to be earlier than standard rush hours eg avoid 6.30am to 7.30am. Either people avoiding rush hour or the people who cant wfh so happen to travel at those times.


“Last week I was on the Tube at 7am and 6.30 pm. Empty at 7, slightly busier at 6.30 but still quite empty and easy to social distance. I could have got a cab paid for by work but I don’t see how that’s safer given it’s an enclosed and small space. The stats say occupancy is still less than 10% and my experience bears that out.


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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2020)

marty21 said:


> I haven't got any public transport since a bus on March 23rd , I'd get on a bus if I have to , but still don't fancy getting on a tube or train.


Tube less busy than buses according to the stats.


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## ska invita (Jun 3, 2020)

Ms T said:


> “Last week I was on the Tube at 7am and 6.30 pm. Empty at 7, slightly busier at 6.30 but still quite empty and easy to social distance. I could have got a cab paid for by work but I don’t see how that’s safer given it’s an enclosed and small space. The stats say occupancy is still less than 10% and my experience bears that out.


the Great British Public have rightly decided fuck going back to work or school if at all possible


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## tony.c (Jun 4, 2020)

Ms T said:


> I could have got a cab paid for by work but I don’t see how that’s safer given it’s an enclosed and small space.


If it's a licensed black cab there is a partition between driver and passenger.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 4, 2020)

Went through Camden locks yesterday on my boat, (canals are open, restrictions are only for manned locks etc). It was almost completely dead, the only visitors were construction workers and what looked like people who lived there, drinking coffee outside. Had a long convo with a security guard, apparently the market reopened on Monday. There were outside stalls open, but I could see the masked up staff of just one takeaway food outlet open. I can’t see how any of these businesses are sustainable without tourism. No customers!


----------



## Numbers (Jun 4, 2020)

Hopefully the demo y/day and even the block party in Harlesden this week don’t trigger a 2nd wave of this shit.


----------



## nagapie (Jun 4, 2020)

Are opticians open?


----------



## klang (Jun 4, 2020)

smokedout said:


> In the meantime if you've ever fancied running a stall on Camden Market I reckon the rents are going to be pretty cheap for a while.


Mate of mine is a CM trader and has told me that CM has sent letters (to sign) around, stating that CM would reduce rent during the crisis, but traders would have to pay the full balance back if closing within two months after re-opening. Apparently hardly anybody signed.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 4, 2020)

tony.c said:


> If it's a licensed black cab there is a partition between driver and passenger.


I know. A lot of my colleagues have been taking black cabs or mini cabs with temporary plastic partitions but I think the Tube is perfectly safe at the moment.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 4, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the Great British Public have rightly decided fuck going back to work or school if at all possible


Or they’re working from home. The danger is that many won’t have jobs to go back to. 😞


----------



## little_legs (Jun 4, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the Great British Public have rightly decided fuck going back to work or school if at all possible


Absolutely. Some companies explicitly told their employees to work from home or just stay at home for the fear of being sued.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 4, 2020)

Ms T said:


> Or they’re working from home. The danger is that many won’t have jobs to go back to. 😞



Let's face it half the jobs around are bollocks service jobs anyway, moving spreadsheets around from place to place.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2020)

Each morning I take a look at the rush hour commuter trains as they come past. They are still pretty empty. I'd guess about 5-10 passengers per carriage just now.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 9, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Are opticians open?


I’m in Rickmansworth now and the optician here is open.


----------



## nagapie (Jun 9, 2020)

pinkmonkey said:


> I’m in Rickmansworth now and the optician here is open.


Thanks. Was just about to ask again.


----------



## nagapie (Jun 15, 2020)

Reduced amount of passengers on reduced service with more people trying to go to work. Fun.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2020)

Walked into town on Saturday. Although some people have been saying "lockdown's broken" for a while now, I haven't really agreed with that. But this weekend was the first time it felt to me like something had changed. A lot more traffic on the main roads, and people out and about. Still a lot of people walking and cycling though, in a "just going for a walk" kind of way, more than would normally be the case.

Only went into the edge of "central" london, but noticeably quieter when you go into the congestion zone still.

The Thames is still very quiet, no motor boats. A few people in canoes though.

Today I went on a bike ride into the city, along Oxford St, Hyde Park, Kensington, out into West london. They are serious about changing the road priorities in the city. Only bikes and buses allowed over London Bridge.

The city still fairly deserted (6 or 7pm) but not as deserted as a couple of weeks ago. A few people about on bikes, and some people queuing for buses but not many. A few sports cars and Bentleys with private numberplates cruising around - this seems to have been a feature of central london right the way through.

Oxford St and Regent St are no longer completely shut down - some shops with their doors still open around 7pm, and a few shoppers about but not that many. Here is what Oxford St looked like this evening.

Hyde Park was quite busy. A lot of people on bikes including a lot of people meandering around on the Tfl bikes.

Heading out through West London there seemed a bit less traffic. They have also been fairly serious there about making segregated bike lanes with the large plastic dividers.

Lots of people sitting out in the sunshine along the Thames, along that nice bit by Chiswick etc. And a few more canoeists in the water.


----------



## bimble (Jun 17, 2020)

Am a bit surprised to get an email just now from TFL telling me that, temporarily, from 22nd of this month, the congestion charge for driving into the middle of town is going to go up to £15 (usually its £10) and that the charge will for now apply for much longer hours (between 7am and 10pm every day of the week).
The email says they are doing it 'in order to enable more journeys to be made safely by foot or bike' which makes sense but it does seem a strange time to make this move right now exactly when they want to keep public transport as un-crowded as possible?


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> Am a bit surprised to get an email just now from TFL telling me that, temporarily, from 22nd of this month, the congestion charge for driving into the middle of town is going to go up to £15 (usually its £10) and that the charge will for now apply for much longer hours (between 7am and 10pm every day of the week).
> The email says they are doing it 'in order to enable more journeys to be made safely by foot or bike" but it seems a strange time to make this move right now exactly when they want to keep public transport as un-crowded as possible?



Isn't this what was forced on them by the government to get their bail out?

I had understood it was a permanent thing?


----------



## bimble (Jun 17, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Isn't this what was forced on them by the government to get their bail out?
> 
> I had understood it was a permanent thing?


What bail out? Sorry don’t know what you mean, unaware of any context to this.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> What bail out? Sorry don’t know what you mean, unaware of any context to this.



tfl needed money from the government as they had completely exhausted their funds by continuing to run services during lockdown.  The government provided extra funds but they were conditional.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> Am a bit surprised to get an email just now from TFL telling me that, temporarily, from 22nd of this month, the congestion charge for driving into the middle of town is going to go up to £15 (usually its £10) and that the charge will for now apply for much longer hours (between 7am and 10pm every day of the week).
> The email says they are doing it 'in order to enable more journeys to be made safely by foot or bike' which makes sense but it does seem a strange time to make this move right now exactly when they want to keep public transport as un-crowded as possible?


The reason to enable more foot and bike journeys is to keep public transport uncrowded, and a load of cars on the road runs contrary to that.

It was discussed on the UK corona thread here


----------



## T & P (Jun 17, 2020)

I thought the CC was normally about just shy of £12 these days? I am not sure how many of the drivers prepared to pay £12 to go into the zone will change their mind due to the extra cost, though I’m sure it will have a small effect.

Other than business journeys, what percentage of the driving population does ever need or want to drive into the CC zone during chargeable hours for private reasons anyway? I struggle to think of any scenario outside of perhaps people doing the school run who live outside the zone. Those who live inside get a 99% discount IIRC.

I haven’t been to central London this week and it’ll be interesting to see what effect the opening of the shops will have on traffic. It has been zombie apocalypse level of emptiness all the way even when it was back to pre-lockdown levels elsewhere in London.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2020)

Looks like the Thames Clippers are running again.

The first time I went down to the Thames during lockdown, the stillness of the river was unexpected - it hadn't ocurred to me that it would mean boat traffic would stop as well. Usually the river is full of boats and the wakes they create - normally you'd almost never get to see it perfectly calm.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 18, 2020)

T & P said:


> I thought the CC was normally about just shy of £12 these days? I am not sure how many of the drivers prepared to pay £12 to go into the zone will change their mind due to the extra cost, though I’m sure it will have a small effect.
> 
> Other than business journeys, what percentage of the driving population does ever need or want to drive into the CC zone during chargeable hours for private reasons anyway? I struggle to think of any scenario outside of perhaps people doing the school run who live outside the zone. Those who live inside get a 99% discount IIRC.
> 
> I haven’t been to central London this week and it’ll be interesting to see what effect the opening of the shops will have on traffic. It has been zombie apocalypse level of emptiness all the way even when it was back to pre-lockdown levels elsewhere in London.



On a normal (not covidy) working day I'd say probably less that 2% of traffic in the CC zone is private vehicles.  I can see the logic in trying to discourage people from driving to work at the moment even though the PM said everyone should drive to work at the moment.   Quite frankly though I can't see it making much difference to the amount of people on their bikes.  People will either cycle or they won't and the danger rarely comes from private cars as its nearly always larger commercial vehicles and if a company needs to deliver than a few quid more on the CC charge will not make a jot of difference.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Looks like the Thames Clippers are running again.
> 
> The first time I went down to the Thames during lockdown, the stillness of the river was unexpected - it hadn't ocurred to me that it would mean boat traffic would stop as well. Usually the river is full of boats and the wakes they create - normally you'd almost never get to see it perfectly calm.



from where I am sat ( off tourist trail but still tidal), I am always saying how little the river is used. We are the clippers, occasional police boat, the recycling barges from Wandsworth and the occasional cement carrying barge crossing from Chelsea to Wandsworth and back.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Quite frankly though I can't see it making much difference to the amount of people on their bikes.  People will either cycle or they won't and the danger rarely comes from private cars as its nearly always larger commercial vehicles


No, the amount of traffic on the roads, including private cars, definitely affects how safe people feel to cycle. And the more traffic there is, the more congestion will slow down buses.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 18, 2020)

The more traffic there is, the slower it is. The slower it is, the safer it is on a bike.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> No, the amount of traffic on the roads, including private cars, definitely affects how safe people feel to cycle. And the more traffic there is, the more congestion will slow down buses.



Well I disagree and even if I'm wrong it's a false security.  The danger to cyclists and is overwhelmingly from commercial vehicles. This being said though there are far fewer of them on London roads at the moment but that has nothing to do with the CC zone.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 18, 2020)

even if it makes little difference to the number of vehicles on the road, it'll raise money for TfL. this was imposed as part of the bailout for their current budget problem after all. 
since the congestion charge has been frozen since 2014 an uplift is overdue anyway.


----------



## blameless77 (Jun 18, 2020)

hash tag said:


> The more traffic there is, the slower it is. The slower it is, the safer it is on a bike.



Actually I don't agree with that....if the road is congested, cars aggressively block cyclists' access to e.g. cycle boxes by the lights, and cyclists are at more risk from large vehicles. Think about what you're saying for even 30 seconds, and you'll see if doesn't make any sense.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2020)

Anyone who actually lives in London will have noticed during lockdown, when there was loads less traffic on the roads, that there were a lot more people out cycling, and that a lot of those people weren't the "usual" London commuter cyclists, they were families with young kids or just people ambling around on rental bikes. People feel safer when there is less traffic. Without wanting to kick off a massive cycling debate on this thread, how much safer they actually are is to some extent moot, if the aim is to encourage more people to cycle instead of using other modes.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2020)

Some comment on public transport risks









						Londoners Have Become Afraid of Public Transit
					

As the U.K. capital cautiously reopens, a poll finds 70% of surveyed Londoners are anxious about commuting via bus or Tube. Are their Covid-19 fears justified?




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## hash tag (Jun 18, 2020)

blameless77 said:


> Actually I don't agree with that....if the road is congested, cars aggressively block cyclists' access to e.g. cycle boxes by the lights, and cyclists are at more risk from large vehicles. Think about what you're saying for even 30 seconds, and you'll see if doesn't make any sense.


In my time I have been to hospital once a year on average as a result of a collision with a car. Would I rather be hit by a car doing 10 MPH or 30MPH...theres no comparison....


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 18, 2020)

hash tag said:


> In my time I have been to hospital once a year on average as a result of a collision with a car.



Blimey, are you related to dessiato?


----------



## hash tag (Jun 18, 2020)

I haven't touched a bike for a few years now. Wonder why?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Some comment on public transport risks
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you werent already anxious about commuting on the tube you are a bloody idiot.

Its a fucking nightmare in summer and crowded to fuck in the mornings. Its enough to make anyone anxious even without Covid.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> If you werent already anxious about commuting on the tube you are a bloody idiot.


It's much safer than most other modes of travel as far as I know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It's much safer than most other modes of travel as far as I know.


few other people would use their ignorance to bolster an argument.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It's much safer than most other modes of travel as far as I know.



Its not about the safety

Its the fact its a fucking hellish slug with your face in a sweaty fuckers armpit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2020)

hash tag said:


> I haven't touched a bike for a few years now. Wonder why?


wearing gloves now?


----------



## hash tag (Jun 18, 2020)

Nope, locked up these days, though I have a good supply of rubber gloves....


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 18, 2020)

Almost left the London area for the summer, I'm in Apsley, although the canalside pub is still closed enterprising locals are sitting outside with tinnies - it's got an outside verandah area which is weatherproof. Hoping the pubs open up for outside service by the time we get to the Midlands.


----------



## nagapie (Jun 19, 2020)

On the 250 now and pleased to say no boarding from the front despite that meaning you can't pay.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 20, 2020)

Today it seemed like there was suddenly loads of traffic back on the roads - weekdays have been getting busier for a while but weekends have remained relatively quiet.

This evening quite a lot of people out and about. All outdoors - parks, outside pubs, peoples gardens, but a lot of people in quite big groups and folk sort of dressed up saturday night ish, which has not been happening very much for the past few months. And the streets no longer feel empty after dark.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 23, 2020)

There's a massive street party outside. It's been going on for hours.


----------



## Me76 (Jun 23, 2020)

I had to go into the office at London Bridge today.  I went off peak and trains bith ways were quiet, but only half of the passengers wearing masks. 

It was nice to see Borough High Street with the pavements widened, something I think should have been done a long time ago and I hope it stays like that.  

Found it strange that the Kings Head pub is doing 'takeaways' but giving people real glasses so that basically everyone hangs out outside just like they used to.  Glad we have a great BID round there and so they are clearing and washing the cobbles regularly as I am sure people (men) are just using the pub like they normally would but pissing up the walls instead of using the toilet inside.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 23, 2020)

Me76 said:


> It was nice to see Borough High Street with the pavements widened, something I think should have been done a long time ago and I hope it stays like that.
> 
> Found it strange that the Kings Head pub is doing 'takeaways' but giving people real glasses so that basically everyone hangs out outside just like they used to.  Glad we have a great BID round there and so they are clearing and washing the cobbles regularly as I am sure people (men) are just using the pub like they normally would but pissing up the walls instead of using the toilet inside.



The above would once all have been local news to me, thanks! 

The widened pavements on Borough High Street sound great 

Actual glass pint glasses at the Kings sound unbelievable! 

For badly behaved male pissers though (  ), at least there'll be OK outside jakes at The George! 
(which looks much more Greene King-dominated than back in the day, mind you  )


----------



## Me76 (Jun 24, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> The above would once all have been local news to me, thanks!
> 
> The widened pavements on Borough High Street sound great
> 
> ...


Yeah, I reckon the George and the Heeltap will put some outside loos in when they open.  Although I doubt the social distancing will be kept to on the benches.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 24, 2020)

T & P said:


> The almost total absence of traffic wardens during the lockdown in London has been glorious. I hope they will give some kind of warning before they start patrolling again.



No warning in Croydon that suspended parking restrictions had been lifted. I had to search quite hard to find it on the council website. When in was out for a stroll last week, absolutely loads of cars were slapped with tickets.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 24, 2020)

It was striking yesterday how much traffic has returned to the roads. Lines of stationary cars in many places.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 24, 2020)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> No warning in Croydon that suspended parking restrictions had been lifted. I had to search quite hard to find it on the council website. When in was out for a stroll last week, absolutely loads of cars were slapped with tickets.



They've back out in our borough since the start of May.



teuchter said:


> It was striking yesterday how much traffic has returned to the roads. Lines of stationary cars in many places.



Yes, I was called to site yesterday and had to do a drive from SW London to Muswell Hill area.  The traffic was free flowing most of the way but there were traffic jams beginning to form.

There seems to be a lot more trains running past my flat as well.  Feels like not far off pre-lockdown service except they all appear to be virtually empty.


----------



## T & P (Jun 24, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It was striking yesterday how much traffic has returned to the roads. Lines of stationary cars in many places.


On my commute route are a couple of those electronic traffic signs you see by the side of the roads. They’re still displaying ‘Essential Travel Only’ as the default message. I was tempted to get off my bike yesterday to take a picture of the bumper to bumper traffic on The Avenue (the road that goes through Clapham Common) as it crawled past said sign, but it’s not possible to stop there. In any event, nobody is observing the rule anymore, and haven’t done so for several weeks, at last as ‘short distance’ trips are concerned.


----------



## sparkybird (Jun 25, 2020)

Traffic on my street is definitely heavier than normal. I reckon it's because those who have a car and can use it to get to work are doing so to avoid public transport, people are making trips in cars that they would normally do on public transport (I've been guilty of doing this once to visit a friend), people who food shopped daily are now shopping weekly/fortnightly and with supermarket delivery slots still difficult to get, people are driving to the supermarkets (again - guilty - although I'm also shopping for other people who can't get out and couldn't carry all that spam in my rucksack...) PLUS many people are still on furlough and decide to take the car out for a spin. After the peace, clean air and quiet of lockdown, it's pretty annoying, esp when they start shouting and honking their horns coz they can't be arsed to wait for a vehicle to pass.

ETA - the next trip to see my friend will be on public transport - I'm looking at the least worst options - and figure I have to start using at some point, so just take precautions and get on with it.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 25, 2020)

Apparently clapham common at midnight was more like middle of the day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It was striking yesterday how much traffic has returned to the roads. Lines of stationary cars in many places.


I live near a pencil factory and in last few days have seen lines of stationery cars again


----------



## danski (Jun 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I live near a pencil factory and in last few days have seen lines of stationery cars again


That’s nice but did you really need to post-it?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 25, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It was striking yesterday how much traffic has returned to the roads. Lines of stationary cars in many places.


my impression is traffic is worse (yesterday) than pre-Covid....I can only guess because people are avoiding public transport on top of everything else


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 25, 2020)

Not surprising tbh. It's only going to take a very small proportion of the people who'd normally use public transport to switch to driving to create way more traffic. London isn't really able to accommodate a switch to private cars in any numbers as it's such a massively inefficient use of space.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 25, 2020)

Police broke-up a street party in Brixton last night, following several complaints, but it didn't go according to plan.





> Fifteen police officers were left injured, with two needing hospital treatment, after a south London street party descended into panic and violence.
> 
> Scotland Yard said officers were confronted by a “hostile” crowd as they tried to break up a "block party" on Cecilia Road, Brixton, on Wednesday night.
> 
> ...











						Police car smashed and 22 cops injured in Brixton street party chaos
					

Twenty-two police officers were left injured, with two needing hospital treatment, after a south London street party descended into panic and violence.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jun 25, 2020)

"they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, "


----------



## ska invita (Jun 25, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Police broke-up a street party in Brixton last night, following several complaints, but it didn't go according to plan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, they're taking the table, "


----------



## teuchter (Jun 27, 2020)

Quite a lot more people on the overground trains, than I've seen in ages, including weekdays, today. 

I think people are going to return to public transport faster than many assume.


----------



## marty21 (Jun 27, 2020)

Our downstairs neighbour is trying to sell her flat, there were viewings today , it was fairly busy . We don't want her to move as she's lovely & we share the garden, but she wants to move to South London    to be closer to family.  Not sure if this is a good time to buy or sell.


----------



## IC3D (Jun 27, 2020)

Had my first pint in Borough Market last night. Was nice but left as everyone around was steaming drunk/coked up lairy. Saw two fights and atmosphere was very tense. Peope seem to be loosing the plot. Didn't even feel safe re distancing be a while before I bother again.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 27, 2020)

marty21 said:


> she wants to move to South London


At least this whole crisis has got some people to re evaluate their lives and see some sense.


----------



## nagapie (Jul 1, 2020)

A friend just messaged me to say some boroughs are in danger of having to go back into lockdown. Did I miss something?


----------



## scifisam (Jul 1, 2020)

nagapie said:


> A friend just messaged me to say some boroughs are in danger of having to go back into lockdown. Did I miss something?



I've seen that on my local support group too. Can't really see how it would work. Lock down a London borough? Rrrright.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I've seen that on my local support group too. Can't really see how it would work. Lock down a London borough? Rrrright.


it's like locking down the country only localised.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2020)

nagapie said:


> A friend just messaged me to say some boroughs are in danger of having to go back into lockdown. Did I miss something?


yeh fuck tons of people wandering about having abandoned any pretence of social distancing.


----------



## nagapie (Jul 1, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I've seen that on my local support group too. Can't really see how it would work. Lock down a London borough? Rrrright.


Well i am assuming we will all be back in lockdown


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2020)

marty21 said:


> she wants to move to South London


she's gone lockdown loco


----------



## elbows (Jul 1, 2020)

nagapie said:


> A friend just messaged me to say some boroughs are in danger of having to go back into lockdown. Did I miss something?


----------



## magneze (Jul 1, 2020)

Any tweets about the army on the M25 yet?


----------



## nagapie (Jul 1, 2020)

elbows said:


>



But is that not true like really not true or gov playing down not true.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2020)

nagapie said:


> A friend just messaged me to say some boroughs are in danger of having to go back into lockdown. Did I miss something?


I don't think we should rule out restrictions being imposed again in some areas whether they be in London or elsewhere if Europe is anything to go by. Part of the problem in being able to even comtemplate such a decision in the UK  is that local public health authorities dont have an accurate picture how many cases they have due to govt not sharing data across the testing sites.


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

AFAIK they're doing lockdowns in Australia and some other places by postcode, so no real reason why that couldn't be done here.


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I don't think we should rule out restrictions being imposed again in some areas whether they be in London or elsewhere if Europe is anything to go by. Part of the problem in being able to even comtemplate such a decision in the UK  is that local public health authorities dont have an accurate picture how many cases they have due to govt not sharing data across the testing sites.



It's not just that, looking at Leicester there's a significant helping of people feeling it's unfair on them and their area, which I guess is partly a manifestation of this idea that some people have that the whole thing is mostly over.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 1, 2020)

nagapie said:


> But is that not true like really not true or gov playing down not true.



There's some info on this from The Mirror. Week on week cases have gone up, in Ealing, Brent, Hounslow and Hammersmith & Fulham but the numbers are still very low and it's probably just the kind of variance you'd expect. So there were 14 new cases in Westminster last week and 4 the week before, elsewhere in London cases are falling so I don't think this is really anything to worry about yet.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's not just that, looking at Leicester there's a significant helping of people feeling it's unfair on them and their area, which I guess is partly a manifestation of this idea that some people have that the whole thing is mostly over.


The boundaries debate is another , is it councils/city boundaries. parishes. specific conurbations , streets etc . People are bound to think its over if local authorities dont have the full data and are able to up message. In Manchester where they have  managed to get a more fuller picture by getting the 'pillar 2 ' data  last week they found  '78 new ‘pillar one’ cases, those the region already knew about, but once ‘pillar two’ tests were added in the real figure came to 465. '


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The boundaries debate is another , is it councils/city boundaries. parishes. specific conurbations , streets etc . People are bound to think its over if local authorities dont have the full data and are able to up message. In Manchester where they have  managed to get a more fuller picture by getting the 'pillar 2 ' data  last week they found  '78 new ‘pillar one’ cases, those the region already knew about, but once ‘pillar two’ tests were added in the real figure came to 465. '



I agree, but I don't think on an individual level that's the reason people are antagonistic about local lockdowns, it's something more than that going on. Councils just need the tools to be ruthless and clear and swift about imposing lockdowns, and then communicating them quickly. Vehicles going around the area with loudspeakers would be a start imo, supplemented by radio and TV and SM adverts, all in different languages. Will be get that, will we fuck.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I agree, but I don't think on an individual level that's the reason people are antagonistic about local lockdowns, it's something more than that going on. Councils just need the tools to be ruthless and clear and swift about imposing lockdowns, and then communicating them quickly. Vehicles going around the area with loudspeakers would be a start imo, supplemented by radio and TV and SM adverts, all in different languages. Will be get that, will we fuck.


Funnily enough a van with speakers used to go past my place here three or four times a week saying stay in your house. Lisbon's municipal area  and attached boroughs started some more restrictions this week due to an increase in cases .


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 1, 2020)

Just got an email newsletter from POP Brixton to say they are reopening on Saturday.  Masks to be worn when walking around, but not required at tables. Temperature checks upon entry.   "All guests will be required to input their data into an online form for the Government’s Track & Trace system. These details will be held securely by Pop Brixton for 21 days, before being deleted."  I didn't know the Govt had a track and trace symptom for people who#ve not tested positive.


----------



## elbows (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> Just got an email newsletter from POP Brixton to say they are reopening on Saturday.  Masks to be worn when walking around, but not required at tables. Temperature checks upon entry.   "All guests will be required to input their data into an online form for the Government’s Track & Trace system. These details will be held securely by Pop Brixton for 21 days, before being deleted."  I didn't know the Govt had a track and trace symptom for people who#ve not tested positive.



A large part of the work of test & trace teams is to do the contact tracing of peoples contacts. That will include people they have been in the pub with, if they later test positive. So the government asked pubs etc to collect these details. I dont think those details get passed on to the test & trace people unless someone associated with that time and place tests positive, and then this broader data will most certainly be used by tracing teams.


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 1, 2020)

Interesting. I've just received a testing kit at home.  If I go to POP Brixton this weekend and receive a positive test result next week, what happens?


----------



## elbows (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> Interesting. I've just received a testing kit at home.  If I go to POP Brixton this weekend and receive a positive test result next week, what happens?



If the system actually manages to function then I believe some team would eventually get your info and contact you to talk about your contacts. 

In the past a lot of this work, in terms of which of your contacts are then tracked down and told to self-isolate, has cut-off points based on arbitrary rules about what is deemed to be a 'close contact'. eg one aspect involved a 15-minute rule where the person didnt count as a close contact if the duration of contact was under 15 minutes, regardless of some of the other details of the contact incident. Since I am not privy to all of these details, on paper or in practice, I cannot therefore claim that the team dealing with you would decide to approach the pub and then follow up with everyone who was there. It would not shock me if, for example, they only intend to use the pub data if they get evidence of a cluster of cases linked to the pub rather than a single one. So it probably isnt just a question of you testing positive, but also other people who can be linked back to the same evening in the pub as you testing positive, and then someone getting the right data and joining those dots and then actually deciding to take action.


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> Interesting. I've just received a testing kit at home.  If I go to POP Brixton this weekend and receive a positive test result next week, what happens?



Why have you got a test?


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 1, 2020)

I thought I had a symptom.


----------



## elbows (Jul 1, 2020)

Dont got to the pub then.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2020)

elbows said:


> If the system actually manages to function then I believe some team would eventually get your info and contact you to talk about your contacts.
> 
> In the past a lot of this work, in terms of which of your contacts are then tracked down and told to self-isolate, has cut-off points based on arbitrary rules about what is deemed to be a 'close contact'. eg one aspect involved a 15-minute rule where the person didnt count as a close contact if the duration of contact was under 15 minutes, regardless of some of the other details of the contact incident. Since I am not privy to all of these details, on paper or in practice, I cannot therefore claim that the team dealing with you would decide to approach the pub and then follow up with everyone who was there. *It would not shock me if, for example, they only intend to use the pub data if they get evidence of a cluster of cases linked to the pub rather than a single one. So it probably isnt just a question of you testing positive, but also other people who can be linked back to the same evening in the pub as you testing positive, and then someone getting the right data and joining those dots and then actually deciding to take action.*



BIB - that's my understanding of how it would work, as carried out in other countries.


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> I thought I had a symptom.



You thought you did? Or you did, or you have?

How strict have you been with social distancing and the lockdown in the 2 weeks prior to this thought or reality?


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 1, 2020)

Why don't you ask me tomorrow? Try to be a bit less like the Gestapo.


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> Why don't you ask me tomorrow? Try to be a bit less like the Gestapo.



Well you're saying you've had symptoms (maybe? it wasn't clear), and then also saying you're going to go out to a pub? If you have symptoms you're supposed to be self isolating, not going out.

You're the one that started off asking how it would work ffs.


----------



## Roadkill (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> Why don't you ask me tomorrow? Try to be a bit less like the Gestapo.



She's right.  If you've so much as a possibility of symptoms you shouldn't even be thinking about going to the pub.


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 1, 2020)

You can all fuck off. 

I said IF I go to Pop Brixton, because I'm interested in their new role in collecing data about the public. IF. IF. Don't make 100 assumptions about someone you don't know and then treat them like a small child.


----------



## LDC (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> You can all fuck off.
> 
> I said IF I go to Pop Brixton, because I'm interested in their new role in collecing data about the public. IF. IF. Don't make 100 assumptions about someone you don't know and then treat them like a small child.



Jesus christ your posts read like a kid having a tantrum, you asked some incoherent question and made some unclear statements and suggested you might go out despite having a symptom (maybe?) and are now having a strop. Dickhead.


----------



## pesh (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> You can all fuck off.
> 
> I said IF I go to Pop Brixton, because I'm interested in their new role in collecing data about the public. IF. IF. Don't make 100 assumptions about someone you don't know and then treat them like a small child.


----------



## kenny g (Jul 1, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> You can all fuck off.
> 
> I said IF I go to Pop Brixton, because I'm interested in their new role in collecing data about the public. IF. IF. Don't make 100 assumptions about someone you don't know and then treat them like a small child.



If the assumption that people are making about someone they don't know is such that they treat them like a small child, maybe that is because they are behaving like one. Fucktard.


----------



## B.I.G (Jul 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> If the assumption that people are making about someone they don't know is such that they treat them like a small child, maybe that is because they are behaving like one. Fucktard.



Unacceptable language.


----------



## Supine (Jul 1, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Unacceptable language.



Cockwomble better?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Unacceptable language.



That's ironic coming from you.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2020)

Supine said:


> Cockwomble better?


Nah, compound swears are the WOAT


----------



## B.I.G (Jul 1, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's ironic coming from you.



Example?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2020)

Anyway.
Went for a spin in town this evening, around 7pm or so. 
Roads still get increasingly quiet as you approach central London, with the exception of a few main roads. Queuing traffic over Tower Bridge and at Vauxhall Bridge.
Central London itself still pretty quiet but not so much as before. Quite a lot of people cycling, and a fair proportion of them looked like commuters to me, which definitely wasn't the case a couple of weeks ago.
South London parks busy despite the ropey weather.

I saw Jacob Rees Mogg outside the Houses of Parliament.


----------



## kenny g (Jul 2, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Unacceptable language.



Would you prefer it in French?


----------



## B.I.G (Jul 2, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Would you prefer it in French?



What other dated and offensive words do you like to use?


----------



## kenny g (Jul 2, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> What other dated and offensive words do you like to use?



I don't think "French" is either dated or offensive. Are you one of editor's sock puppets?


----------



## B.I.G (Jul 2, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I don't think "French" is either dated or offensive. Are you one of editor's sock puppets?



So you think “fucktard” is not offensive?


----------



## Cerv (Jul 2, 2020)

the partial pedestrianisation of Soho has gone ahead. to facilitate al fresco dining & drinking.
the main part of Compton St 11am to 11pm plus the rest of Compton St and Dean St, Frith St, Greek St from 5pm to 11pm.
I never thought I'd see the day I'd be cheering on something from Westminster council. will just have to wait and see where actually opens up again.









						17 Soho streets to be temporarily pedestrianised from July 4
					

After winning more than 6,500 signatures in support – among them Bill Nighy, Orlando Bloom and countless restaurants and bars – a campaign to pedestrianise much of Soho has found some success.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## kenny g (Jul 2, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> So you think “fucktard” is not offensive?



Just looked it up. I hadn't registered its association with retard. Genuine apologies. And yes, it would be offensive and unnecessary in that context. Thank you for calling me up on it.


----------



## B.I.G (Jul 2, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Just looked it up. I hadn't registered its association with retard. Genuine apologies. And yes, it would be offensive and unnecessary in that context. Thank you for calling me up on it.



Fair enough. This week thanks to trump I found out about the root of denigrate. Have a good weekend.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 2, 2020)

Cerv said:


> the partial pedestrianisation of Soho has gone ahead. to facilitate al fresco dining & drinking.
> the main part of Compton St 11am to 11pm plus the rest of Compton St and Dean St, Frith St, Greek St from 5pm to 11pm.
> I never thought I'd see the day I'd be cheering on something from Westminster council. will just have to wait and see where actually opens up again.
> 
> ...



That might even make going to Soho appealing if it lasts.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I don't think "French" is either dated or offensive. Are you one of editor's sock puppets?


Don't tag me in threads without good reason please as it's annoying. Thanks.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jul 2, 2020)

Additional pedestrianisation or not, I think what happens on Saturday and afterwards in London is going to be the *particular* test of how pub re-opening works, or not! 

How fucking busy is it all going to become??  ... I'd love to see peoples' impressions!

Reports from London-based and other big city-based Urbs (drinkers or not!) will be welcomed, cheers .... 

(Nothing happening pub-wise here in Wales until Monday 13th July, if then. And pubs with outside seating only, to start with in Wales, too).


----------



## Sunray (Jul 3, 2020)

It’s not a free for all and if pubs pubs have any sense, don’t open unless they have a garden or are big enough to allow people to space out.

This has to happen at some point, the virus isn’t going to go away, it’s at pretty low levels. It’s fairly low risk.

I think we also need to start assessing risk individually rather than having a top down approach. The gov should educate about risk and provide guidance on how to lower risk to yourself and for the people around you.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jul 3, 2020)

Sunray said:


> It’s not a free for all and if pubs pubs have any sense, don’t open unless they have a garden or are big enough to allow people to space out.
> 
> This has to happen at some point, the virus isn’t going to go away, it’s at pretty low levels. It’s fairly low risk.
> 
> I think we also need to start assessing risk individually rather than having a top down approach. The gov should educate about risk and provide guidance on how to lower risk to yourself and for the people around you.



I like this optimistic/positive take 
I hope it all works out better than many fear then -- pubs-wise especially


----------



## ska invita (Jul 3, 2020)

Coronavirus R rate creeps up above 1 in London just hours before lockdown eases
					

Government figures reveal that the R rate could be as high as 1.1 in London - meaning cases of the deadly virus are starting to grow again - while it could have reached 1 in the Midlands, the North East and Yorkshire, the South East and the South West




					www.mirror.co.uk
				





🍻

To be precise it says up to 1.1:

The R values and growth rate for the following regions are:


*East of England*: 0.7-0.9, minus 5% to 0%
*London*: 0.8-1.1, minus 4% to plus 2%
*Midlands*: 0.8-1, with an unchanged growth rate of minus 4% to 0%.
*North East and Yorkshire*: 0.8-1, minus 5% to 0%
*North West*: 0.7-0.9, minus 4% to 0%
*South East*: 0.7 to 1, minus 5% to 0%
*South West*: 0.7 to 1, minus 7% to plus 2%.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 3, 2020)

I really don't ever see a full lockdown ever coming back unless people start dying in the street.
I'll have boarded up the window before they start automated messages on am radio.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Coronavirus R rate creeps up above 1 in London just hours before lockdown eases
> 
> 
> Government figures reveal that the R rate could be as high as 1.1 in London - meaning cases of the deadly virus are starting to grow again - while it could have reached 1 in the Midlands, the North East and Yorkshire, the South East and the South West
> ...


That's a totally misleading headline. According to the article, in London the rate is estimated to be somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1. So it is most likely less than one. It is more likely that the number of infections are falling than it is that they are rising. 

Can't we just send all journalists to numerical literacy bootcamps or something?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That's a totally misleading headline. According to the article, in London the rate is estimated to be somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1. So it is most likely less than one. It is more likely that the number of infections are falling than it is that they are rising.
> 
> Can't we just send all journalists to numerical literacy bootcamps or something?


After you go of course as your non sequitur suggests you'll benefit from it too


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That's a totally misleading headline. According to the article, in London the rate is estimated to be somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1. So it is most likely less than one. It is more likely that the number of infections are falling than it is that they are rising.
> 
> Can't we just send all journalists to numerical literacy bootcamps or something?


yes 0.8-1.1 is what i posted under it
but you're right = The Mirror is a rag effectively run by the worst of Labour spin doctors


----------



## newbie (Jul 4, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Reports from London-based and other big city-based Urbs (drinkers or not!) will be welcomed, cheers ....


Yesterday evening, ie before reopening, the bars on Battersea Rise were heaving with tightpacked young people  (e2a outside) clutching plastic glasses (why isn't there a word?) with empties in the gutter.  They've been like that for a couple of weeks now.

FWIW they were almost entirely white and there were no riot vans visible, meanwhile on the estates...


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2020)

Some serious diversity problems in bars in Battersea Rise


----------



## newbie (Jul 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Some serious diversity problems in bars in Battersea Rise


rooted in economics


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2020)

newbie said:


> rooted in economics


a colour bar by whatever means by the sound of it .


----------



## newbie (Jul 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> a colour bar by whatever means by the sound of it .


You sound surprised. Not defending anything I saw, just trying to recognise the realities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> a colour bar by whatever means by the sound of it .


A class bar too no doubt


----------



## elbows (Jul 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That's a totally misleading headline. According to the article, in London the rate is estimated to be somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1. So it is most likely less than one. It is more likely that the number of infections are falling than it is that they are rising.
> 
> Can't we just send all journalists to numerical literacy bootcamps or something?



When a range is given like that I dont have a reason to think the lower numbers in the range are more likely than the upper ones. But there are a lot of caveats with these numbers anyway, I wouldnt place much faith in their R estimates or growth estimates and they are very easily skewed by being based on only a small amount of real data, and local outbreaks that dont actually apply to the whole region in question. Here is some of the tedious detail from the government webpage where these numbers are published.



> *Limitations of R*
> R is an average value that can vary in different parts of the country, communities, and subsections of the population. It cannot be measured directly so there is always uncertainty around its exact value. This becomes even more of a problem when calculating R using small numbers of cases, either due to lower infection rates or smaller geographical areas. This uncertainty may be due to variability in the underlying data, leading to a wider range for R and more frequent changes in the estimates.
> 
> Even when the overall UK R estimate is below 1, some regions may have Restimates that include ranges that exceed 1, for example from 0.7 to 1.1; this does not necessarily mean the epidemic is increasing in that region, just that the uncertainty means it cannot be ruled out. It is also possible that an outbreak in one specific place could result in an R above 1 for the whole region.
> ...





> *Limitations of growth rates*
> The growth rate is an average value that can vary. When case numbers are low, uncertainty increases. This could happen when only a very small proportion of people are infected, or the geographical area considered has a very small population. A smaller number of cases means that variability in the underlying data makes it difficult to estimate the growth rate; there will be a wider range given for growth rate and frequent changes in the estimates. This will happen for both R and the growth rate; however, the growth rate requires fewer assumptions about the disease when it is calculated than R.
> 
> Even when the overall UK growth rate estimate is negative (below 0), some regions may have growth rate estimates that include ranges that are positive (above 0), for example from -4% to +1%; this does not necessarily mean the epidemic is increasing in that region, just that the uncertainty means it cannot be ruled out. It is also possible that an outbreak in one specific place could result in a positive (above 0) growth rate for the whole region.











						The R value and growth rate
					

The latest reproduction number (R) and growth rate of coronavirus (COVID-19).




					www.gov.uk
				




I am very much in alignment with the bit where they say "Estimates of R for geographies smaller than regional level are less reliable and it is more appropriate to identify local hotspots through, for example, monitoring numbers of cases, hospitalisations, and deaths."


----------



## elbows (Jul 4, 2020)

Also I rarely think about R in isolation. Because the implications of an R of 1.1 in a place that had 7000 infections at that moment in time are a bit different to an R of 1.1 in a place that already had 70,000 infections at that time. Even if R shot massively over 1 somewhere, if its starting from a fairly low base of infections then there is still quite a bit of time & wiggle room to deal with it befeore the implications even begin to resemble the picture of February/March. Things would need to be left unchecked for quite a while before the situation could resemble the sort of scenario people fear most.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That's a totally misleading headline. According to the article, in London the rate is estimated to be somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1. So it is most likely less than one. It is more likely that the number of infections are falling than it is that they are rising.
> 
> Can't we just send all journalists to numerical literacy bootcamps or something?


Pls could you post your working which shows why these guesses influence the actual rate, why it is more likely that r is below 1


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Pls could you post your working which shows why these guesses influence the actual rate, why it is more likely that r is below 1


Instead of asking me to explain how to reverse causality why don't you produce the workings that would justify the article headline.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2020)

elbows said:


> Also I rarely think about R in isolation. Because the implications of an R of 1.1 in a place that had 7000 infections at that moment in time are a bit different to an R of 1.1 in a place that already had 70,000 infections at that time. Even if R shot massively over 1 somewhere, if its starting from a fairly low base of infections then there is still quite a bit of time & wiggle room to deal with it befeore the implications even begin to resemble the picture of February/March. Things would need to be left unchecked for quite a while before the situation could resemble the sort of scenario people fear most.


Yes. Another reason that article is rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Instead of asking me to explain how to reverse causality why don't you produce the workings that would justify the article headline.


Your third sentence appears to be you drawing a conclusion and I'd like to see how to you reached that


----------



## teuchter (Jul 7, 2020)

My first trip on public transport this afternoon, on the overground. The train is not packed but it's certainly not empty. 

Almost everyone has a mask, but I would say 50% are wearing it on their chin, including the woman having a loud telephone conversation. 

Actually technically my first trip was on Sunday, on almost empty thameslink trains to and from just outside of London. My observation there was that the mask wearing was being better observed the closer you came into london.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Jul 7, 2020)

I took the tube from Brixton to Finsbury Park last Thursday & today, both times early afternoon.

Last Thurs was almost empty - 3 or 4 people per carriage - first time time I'd taken the tube since March, so felt proper weird seeing all the Covid signage.  Everyone wearing masks though, & just as empty on the way back around 6.30pm-ish.

Today, same journey, same time but I'd say the tube was at getting towards normal capacity for a quiet afternoon - people were spacing by sitting in alternate seats, but when it got busier at Vauxhall & Victoria, people just sat in between & filled up the seats.

Not sure what else they could have done really!
Staying on the platform or standing by the doors wouldn't have been any better for distancing.
But everyone was wearing a mask - it didn't feel too bad, but I'm glad I don't have to do that journey every day.

Wondering what morning / evening rush hours are like now?  If they're around the level I saw today, I guess it's not too bad, though I wouldn't care for a long journey.

(On the way back this evening, I used the Thameslink back to Herne Hill instead - which was a lot emptier).


----------



## teuchter (Jul 21, 2020)

I was in central London this afternoon.

This is the first time I've been in that it's not felt like a ghost town. Not exactly normal, but plenty of people around. Regent St fairly full of traffic again. Soho pretty busy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 21, 2020)

Might go into town on the weekend to see what it looks like now and do a bit of street photography - I haven't been on public transport for months.


----------



## Numbers (Jul 21, 2020)

I really miss going into central London.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 21, 2020)

It would have been a great time to go into central London or the city, bciti would not use public transport and can't even take the car at weekends Now, so no, couldn't do it.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 21, 2020)

On a slightly different note, I have just come out of a virtual tour of sick London, which was very good. It's one of many tours that are still happening.








						Sick London Virtual Tour
					

Join London Blue Badge Guide Russell Nash for this fascinating, if occasionally gruesome tale of a sick city.




					www.ianvisits.co.uk


----------



## nagapie (Aug 4, 2020)

Not sure where to ask this so I'll do it here. Can I just walk into a barbers or do I have to make an appointment? My son wants a cut.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 4, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Not sure where to ask this so I'll do it here. Can I just walk into a barbers or do I have to make an appointment? My son wants a cut.



Pretty sure it depends on the barbers.


----------



## scifisam (Aug 6, 2020)

I went to the cinema earlier this week - the Genesis in Stepney Green - and it felt really safe. This particular cinema already had posh screens where you sit on leather sofas with footstools, so they're easy to keep clean and there's easily 2 metres between you and another sofa. The necessary high ceilings also help reduce transmission. But most people were wearing masks most of the time anyway, even while sitting on those sofas.

Normal screens will find it a little harder, but this is much pleasanter anyway. The tickets cost more but it's definitely worth it.



nagapie said:


> Not sure where to ask this so I'll do it here. Can I just walk into a barbers or do I have to make an appointment? My son wants a cut.



All the ones I've looked at require appointments.


----------



## Schmetterling (Aug 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I went to the cinema earlier this week - the Genesis in Stepney Green - and it felt really safe. This particular cinema already had posh screens where you sit on leather sofas with footstools, so they're easy to keep clean and there's easily 2 metres between you and another sofa. The necessary high ceilings also help reduce transmission. But most people were wearing masks most of the time anyway, even while sitting on those sofas.
> 
> Normal screens will find it a little harder, but this is much pleasanter anyway. The tickets cost more but it's definitely worth it.
> 
> ...



That‘s my local. 
Good to hear; I have been meaning to go.


----------



## scifisam (Aug 6, 2020)

Schmetterling said:


> That‘s my local.
> Good to hear; I have been meaning to go.



They are also basically showing no ads at the moment. It's nice, but you need to turn up on time for once. And they're not serving pies  But they are in the discount scheme for pastries and coffee.


----------



## Schmetterling (Aug 7, 2020)

scifisam said:


> They are also basically showing no ads at the moment. It's nice, but you need to turn up on time for once. And they're not serving pies  But they are in the discount scheme for pastries and coffee.



That's ok, I usually go for the Bratwurst with Hela Curry Ketchup!


----------



## spitfire (Aug 7, 2020)

Schmetterling said:


> That's ok, I usually go for the Bratwurst with Hela Curry Ketchup!



They do Bratwurst at the Genesis? Missed that! Good to know. 

It's a good cinema.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Might go into town on the weekend to see what it looks like now and do a bit of street photography - I haven't been on public transport for months.


I didn't, and then I hurt my foot a couple of weeks ago so I've not been into town at all, but I am going to go in tomorrow now that my foot is getting better. There is an NHS march from St James' Park at 11.

There are also protests in Tottenham, but given that the cops are _already_ pre-harassing people, I don't think I'm agile enough for that yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I didn't, and then I hurt my foot a couple of weeks ago so I've not been into town at all, but I am going to go in tomorrow now that my foot is getting better. There is an NHS march from St James' Park at 11.
> 
> There are also protests in Tottenham, but given that the cops are _already_ pre-harassing people, I don't think I'm agile enough for that yet.


What are the Tottenham protests?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What are the Tottenham protests?


BLM protests at Tottenham police station - it's (pretty much) the anniversary of Mark Duggan being shot. Cops are starting early. (Colindale is not in Tottenham of course but the people being raided are connected, I'm led to believe.)


----------



## wtfftw (Aug 7, 2020)

Grahame? park estate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> BLM protests at Tottenham police station - it's (pretty much) the anniversary of Mark Duggan being shot. Cops are starting early. (Colindale is not in Tottenham of course but the people being raided are connected, I'm led to believe.)



Ta - good luck to all out tomorrow and bad cess to the cops


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2020)

Guardian piece on the Colindale stuff, by Damien Gayle who was one of the sources I heard of it from: London police station blockaded after 14-year-old's arrest


----------



## teuchter (Aug 10, 2020)

Today's the first day I've noticed an overground train go past with nearly all the seats occupied in a couple of the carriages.


----------



## Me76 (Aug 14, 2020)

Went to the office today.  Journey in off peak.  V quite, but as I would expect at that time.  Went to pub at 4.15 (to have a meeting) and as busy as I would expect at that time.  Left pub at 5.15 and queue was busy, but lots of tables booked from what I heard from bar staff so I don't think you would have got in after 6 if you hadn't booked in advance. 

17.31 train home slightly quieter than it would have been in Jan.   No fucker works in the office on a Friday anyway


----------



## marty21 (Aug 14, 2020)

I have left London for the 1st time since Mid March,  drove to Bath yesterday to see my family.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 14, 2020)

Somerset House this afternoon. To be fair it was raining slightly but still. 


Covent Garden not quite so dead but also quiet, and lots of restaurants and shops still closed, only a handful of stalls going. It was the first time I've noticed the old wooden barrows the stalls in the main bit are on. They're rather nice.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 14, 2020)

RubyToogood said:


> Somerset House this afternoon. To be fair it was raining slightly but still.
> View attachment 226651
> 
> Covent Garden not quite so dead but also quiet, and lots of restaurants and shops still closed, only a handful of stalls going. It was the first time I've noticed the old wooden barrows the stalls in the main bit are on. They're rather nice.


Is the covered market open in Covent Garden? I need to meet a friend in town, in the rain.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 15, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Is the covered market open in Covent Garden? I need to meet a friend in town, in the rain.


Yes. Well. If you mean the jubilee market the space is open but there weren't really any stalls behind the first row. But plenty of room to shelter. The main market has all the usual buskers.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 15, 2020)

It had much more of a "we are in the middle of a pandemic" vibe than I was expecting, given how lively the burbs are now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2020)

marty21 said:


> I have left London for the 1st time since Mid March,  drove to Bath yesterday to see my family.


Were they open?


----------



## marty21 (Aug 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Were they open?


Yes


----------



## nagapie (Aug 15, 2020)

RubyToogood said:


> It had much more of a "we are in the middle of a pandemic" vibe than I was expecting, given how lively the burbs are now.


The couple of times I've gone into more central London, I've hated it. Proper pandemic vibes


----------



## Supine (Aug 15, 2020)

I need to travel Euston to Victoria next Tuesday afternoon. Any idea how busy the tube will be?


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Aug 16, 2020)

Getting on for the quiet side of normal by now, people tend to leave empty seats next to you if they can, but it's not always possible.

But it's a really quick trip, less than 10 minutes actual journey (ends of the platform are quieter than middle, but prob don't bother waiting for the next train as they're still less frequent than usual so the platform will just fill up again).

Euston station concourse these days is emptier than I've ever seen it!
Victoria more like quiet/normal but still ok.
And the loos are still open (& free) at Victoria, with managed queuing etc...


----------



## Winot (Aug 22, 2020)

A Friday night in Central London (the first for me since lockdown):


easy to get into pub near Oxford Circus for pre-dinner pint
ate in restaurant off Regent St only half full
got into Ivy club and Grouchos (not a member of either but had deal to get in) - both pretty empty
finished in Freedom bar which was quite full with Weimar Republic feel to it
only busy part of town was around Old Compton St
LOTS of guys touting for business (offering drugs/girls/parties/rides)
lots of black cabs with light on at 3am

OK it’s August but was surprised how quiet it was.


----------



## zora (Aug 24, 2020)

Hmmm, intriguing: Just treating myself to the bus to go to work (for the first time, yesterday and today, since mid-June). Been walking the 45 mins there and back, and whilst that doesn't sound long, I have found it absolutely knackering (I'm on my feet all day at work as well). Now making the most of this last week before, I imagine, public transport use will increase massively from next week. 
I'm one of four people on the top deck, all with mask, but now the intriguing thing: The bus, one of the new routemaster types, has got slidey open windows. I could have sworn that it didn't used to have openable windows. Have these actually been just fitted for covid?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

zora said:


> Hmmm, intriguing: Just treating myself to the bus to go to work (for the first time, yesterday and today, since mid-June). Been walking the 45 mins there and back, and whilst that doesn't sound long, I have found it absolutely knackering (I'm on my feet all day at work as well). Now making the most of this last week before, I imagine, public transport use will increase massively from next week.
> I'm one of four people on the top deck, all with mask, but now the intriguing thing: The bus, one of the new routemaster types, has got slidey open windows. I could have sworn that it didn't used to have openable windows. Have these actually been just fitted for covid?


They didn't to begin with but they've been there a couple of years now


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2020)

Routemaster buses in London to be refitted with windows that open
					

Boris Johnson chided by assembly members for ordering fleet of new vehicles with design that left passengers suffering temperatures of 30C and above




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## zora (Aug 24, 2020)

Ah, it seemed like a quick turnaround. Shows how much attention I pay to my surroundings  but either way I am glad that they are there. 

On a related note, just went past Trafalgar Square and saw the new sculpture on the plinth, whipped cream with cherry. It really spoke to me, given that covid and the attendant fuck-ups are literally the icing on the shitcake of Tory rule.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 24, 2020)

zora said:


> Hmmm, intriguing: Just treating myself to the bus to go to work (for the first time, yesterday and today, since mid-June). Been walking the 45 mins there and back, and whilst that doesn't sound long, I have found it absolutely knackering (I'm on my feet all day at work as well). Now making the most of this last week before, I imagine, public transport use will increase massively from next week.
> I'm one of four people on the top deck, all with mask, but now the intriguing thing: The bus, one of the new routemaster types, has got slidey open windows. I could have sworn that it didn't used to have openable windows. Have these actually been just fitted for covid?



They got added because so many people complained the buses became oven hot, it cost a fortune and was another legacy of good old funny Boris being mayor.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 25, 2020)

I need to take a test. Are the post boxes just the normal red ones? I can see where mine are marked on the map and that's where I think a normal one is.


----------



## zora (Aug 25, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I need to take a test. Are the post boxes just the normal red ones? I can see where mine are marked on the map and that's where I think a normal one is.



Yes, it is the normal ones, it will just have a sticker on it under the slot to post the letters saying "NHS priority post box"; I have noticed some of them around. 
All the best for your test!


----------



## what (Aug 27, 2020)

Went into Soho early last night (6:30ish) it was unbelievably busy, really long queues outside restaurants and all the street tables taken with cafes/pubs etc bringing out more and more tables


----------



## ska invita (Aug 27, 2020)

Yeah noticeably busier in central... Still a long way to go from the usual throng but creeping. Bracing for September and partial office return
Went on a tube yesterday after trains broke down - thankfully that was very empty still


----------



## marty21 (Aug 27, 2020)

Got a train yesterday , first time since March!not quite the photo I took, photoshopped by a certain urb    It was quiet on the train (after 10am) and quiet on the return journey at 3ish. Glad I have finally used public transport after 5 months!


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 27, 2020)

That's a cracking mask,  marty21 !!   

Good to see that you take tunes with you as well


----------



## tony.c (Aug 27, 2020)

what said:


> Went into Soho early last night (6:30ish) it was unbelievably busy, really long queues outside restaurants and all the street tables taken with cafes/pubs etc bringing out more and more tables



Yesterday was the last day of the Government's 'Eat Out to Help Out' £10 discount scheme. 
Grosvenor Estates have said they will continue the subsidy for their restaurant tenants through September.








						Landlord Grosvenor offers Eat Out to Help Out extension for tenants
					

Landlord Grosvenor has moved to help restaurants across its Mayfair and Belgravia estate by funding an extension of the government’s Eat Out to Help Out scheme.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 27, 2020)

tony.c said:


> Yesterday was the last day of the Government's 'Eat Out to Help Out' £10 discount scheme.



I've read (somewhere?   ) that the Government scheme will also include Bank Holiday Monday (31st August) but I'm not really sure ......


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 27, 2020)

tony.c said:


> Yesterday was the last day of the Government's 'Eat Out to Help Out' £10 discount scheme.


Wrong.


William of Walworth said:


> I've read (somewhere?   ) that the Government scheme will also include Bank Holiday Monday (31st August) but I'm not really sure ......


Correct.









						[Withdrawn] Get a discount with the Eat Out to Help Out Scheme
					

From 3 to 31 August, get a 50% discount when you eat in at restaurants that are registered with the Eat Out to Help Out Scheme.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## Cerv (Aug 30, 2020)

Monday will suck for anyone working in catering won't it?
last day of the discount = big FOMO, plus bank holiday meaning more people are off work and looking for something to do. it's going to be a crazy last minute rush.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 3, 2020)

Just been out to a couple of site meetings in London.  I was actually amazed by how quiet the roads still are compared to non-covid times.  My route was from SW London up to Maida Vale and Kilburn.  The route sat nav took me was a route you'd never normally do through the side roads of Kensington and Chelsea.  No traffic jams and just the occasional waiting at red lights.


----------



## bimble (Sep 4, 2020)

One for teuchter








						50 miles of London bus lanes to be banned to cars 24/7
					

Fifty miles of bus lanes on London’s main roads are to be enforced on a 24/7 basis to discourage a car-led recovery from coronavirus.




					www.standard.co.uk
				



Good idea far as I can see.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> One for teuchter
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does nothing.

People are so petrified about the £90 fine for going into a bus lane most don't use them at any time already.


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2020)

Sunray said:


> Does nothing.
> 
> People are so petrified about the £90 fine for going into a bus lane most don't use them at any time already.


Not sure about that, added together I’ve probably spent a month sat on London buses which are stuck in traffic and fair bit of that is bus lanes full of cars and vans. People who drive the same roads every day know the bus lane hours.


----------



## Winot (Sep 6, 2020)

Sunray said:


> Does nothing.
> 
> People are so petrified about the £90 fine for going into a bus lane most don't use them at any time already.



Although as you say there are some drivers who don’t use bus lanes when they could, there are significant numbers who do use them and it has a significant effect on how safe it feels to cycle.

I base this on 25 years experience of cycling home to Brixton along Clapham and Brixton roads. There is a big difference after 7pm. This will be a gamechanger for cyclists.


----------



## sparkybird (Sep 6, 2020)

I was wondering if they'll remove the parking in them? Normal there's some loading bays or short stay outside of the 7-10 am and 4-7 pm hours. I guess they can't because so many businesses rely on these to get stock in?


----------



## Winot (Sep 6, 2020)

sparkybird said:


> I was wondering if they'll remove the parking in them? Normal there's some loading bays or short stay outside of the 7-10 am and 4-7 pm hours. I guess they can't because so many businesses rely on these to get stock in?



Good point - not sure.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 6, 2020)

Here also!


hash tag said:


> The enforcement of bus lanes is madness. There are some that say Monday to Friday, 7 -10, some 7-10 & 4-7 Mon to Fri, 7-10 & 4-7 Mon to Sat and
> so on which is just so confusing. In some ways, making all bus lanes 24/7 makes sense
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## marty21 (Sep 6, 2020)

Sunray said:


> Does nothing.
> 
> People are so petrified about the £90 fine for going into a bus lane most don't use them at any time already.


I agree, I never drive in bus lanes whatever the time , thanks to a £40 fine on the Holloway Road about 15 years ago  .


----------



## nagapie (Sep 8, 2020)

Buses packed to pre lockdown rush hour level. Have to be, how else we going to get to work and school.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Sep 8, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Buses packed to pre lockdown rush hour level. Have to be, how else we going to get to work and school.


Not yet. They are certainly getting fuller but the drivers are enforcing the numbers on the routes I take at least. There is still a tiny fraction of the normal numbers using public transport.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 8, 2020)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Not yet. They are certainly getting fuller but the drivers are enforcing the numbers on the routes I take at least. There is still a tiny fraction of the normal numbers using public transport.


This was not the case on Tulse Hill at 8am. Buses were packed and, as always, still people who couldn't get on them.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Sep 8, 2020)

'Packed to pre-lockdown rush hour level' I would think of as full of standing passengers on the lower deck?

(Are we still not meant to have standing passengers? If so, I guess that's why there's people left at the bus stops...)


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Sep 8, 2020)

nagapie said:


> This was not the case on Tulse Hill at 8am. Buses were packed and, as always, still people who couldn't get on them.


Wow really? I get on 2 different routes from Brixton Hill every day at 8am and 2 routes home from wherever I am working that day. I've been getting loads of buses when out and about at the weekends as well.

There's hardly anyone at the bus stops and everyone has got a seat to themselves. Nothing like the pre-COVID hordes. Normally there would be 20 people at least at the bus stop I use in the morning and several busses would pass before anyone could get on. There's maybe a maximum of 5 others there these days. Up from being literally just me at the height of lockdown.

I guess some routes are busier than others.

Are people being packed on all standing like in pre-COVID days or are the numbers being enforced?


----------



## nagapie (Sep 8, 2020)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Wow really? I get on 2 different routes from Brixton Hill every day at 8am and 2 routes home from wherever I am working that day. I've been getting loads of buses when out and about at the weekends as well.
> 
> There's hardly anyone at the bus stops and everyone has got a seat to themselves. Nothing like the pre-COVID hordes. Normally there would be 20 people at least at the bus stop I use in the morning and several busses would pass before anyone could get on. There's maybe a maximum of 5 others there these days. Up from being literally just me at the height of lockdown.
> 
> ...


Brixton Hill has a lot more buses than Tulse Hill. No, drivers had stopped enforcing or most people wouldn't be able to get on a bus.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Sep 8, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Brixton Hill has a lot more buses than Tulse Hill. No, drivers had stopped enforcing or most people wouldn't be able to get on a bus.


I'm waiting for that to happen on the routes I take to be honest. I guess it's only a matter of time.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Sep 9, 2020)

And lo - it has come to pass. Had to watch 2 x 133s go by as they were full  

I've felt safe on public transport up to now but I can see that eroding very quickly.

When I say full, I mean COVID full.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2020)

My train the busiest today since lockdown... Stil only around 40% normal use id guess


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Sep 9, 2020)

Strange isn't it? I mean why today? It's a Wednesday. Why are there suddenly loads more people today?


ska invita said:


> My train the busiest today since lockdown... Stil only around 40% normal use id guess


----------



## scifisam (Sep 9, 2020)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Strange isn't it? I mean why today? It's a Wednesday. Why are there suddenly loads more people today?



Schools restarting the term mid-week, and parents then going back to the office, probably.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 9, 2020)

Inset days at schools for staff training, Year 7's back first, then staggered/all years back - and therefore more parents back to work, too. _bundle_


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 9, 2020)

More generally about Wednesday being busy ....

A lot of part-timers prefer to work mid-week days, at least in normal circumstances. 

But if they're still able to do it**, those who prefer to work Tuesdays and Wednesdays rather than Mondays and Fridays (   ) will probably retain that preference .....


**(if they can -- really big if ....  )


----------



## Cloo (Sep 9, 2020)

Had to go into the West End for a medical appointment (as none available near me since all related healthcare moved out of being managed by my actual local trust  ) at lunchtime - traffic was much lower than usual, but Pret and its ilk seemed pretty busy to me and quite a lot of people around. That said, some places, like Itsu were still shut due to not seeing there as being enough custom. I guess maybe places were only busy because a percentage are shut at the mo.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 9, 2020)

Is it time for london the relockening thread yet?


----------



## Sue (Sep 9, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Is it time for london the relockening thread yet?


God knows. I still don't understand what this new (easier to understand apparently) six thing is.


----------



## elbows (Sep 9, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Is it time for london the relockening thread yet?



Personally I would wait till the next obvious moment where the mood music changes, pressure builds (including the pressure inside our heads) and the next big press conference announcing new measures looms large.

Because if we wait, we could end up using the word curfew in the title of a new thread:



> At the bottom of the government's guidance issued today, there is a rather bland, technical sounding paragraph:
> 
> "The government will restrict the opening hours of premises, initially in local lockdown areas, with the option of national action in the future. This has been introduced in Bolton, following a steep rise in cases, and will seek to restrict activities that may lead to a spread in the virus."
> 
> ...



from Ministers change heart over Covid restrictions


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 10, 2020)

If only a clear message happens before uni returns.   It's an absolute arse ache trying to find ways to allow all students to be at home or on a socially distanced campus when there were never enough rooms even without SD rules...
A partial lockdown would be SO much simpler and we could focus on pedagogy,  teaching and pastoral support and not rooming,  rooming,  rooming


----------



## nyxx (Sep 10, 2020)

I rely on being able to do any in person shopping late, as late as possible given the shops opening hours. Means the shops are much quieter. No need to queue & much less pressure on space inside. 

If there’s a curfew on shop opening times it’d make things a lot less covid safe for me.


----------



## T & P (Sep 10, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Buses packed to pre lockdown rush hour level. Have to be, how else we going to get to work and school.


Unfortunately those bus passengers on a great many routes are finding out their commute to and from work now takes a considerably longer time than before lockdown, due to the recently imposed city-wide road and bridge closures and restrictions  to cars coupled with the fungus-like sudden proliferation of LTN areas that have caused countless through-roads to be in a permanent state of gridlock. Plenty of which have few or no bus lane sections.

Still, it serves them right for being lazy and refusing to get the arses on a bike and join the cycling revolution.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

T & P said:


> the recently imposed city-wide road and bridge closures and restrictions  to cars


has that started? im not aware that it has...or will, despite plans in May


----------



## teuchter (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> has that started? im not aware that it has...or will, despite plans in May


Interpretations of the extent of the changes and the nature of their effect vary wildly


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

its all gone very quiet about that tbh


----------



## T & P (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> has that started? im not aware that it has...or will, despite plans in May


Wandsworth Bridge reduced to one lane, London Bridge closed to cars for essential repairs/ improvements but not to much heavier buses or taxis, bikes or peds, so perhaps not so critical or urgent. Vauxhall closed to all traffic other than cyclists and peds.

Coupled with a record number of roadworks with temporary traffic lights that have started at the same time, many of which on the direct approach roads to the bridges that remain available to cars which have made an already dire situation even worse.

Given that Hammersmith Bridge has been closed for many months due to its structural problems, the closure of multiple additional bridges, restriction on another, and multiple roadworks on surrounding roads to some of them is extraordinarily bad timing.

I am just about prepared to believe the possibility of the required work on one of the closed bridges was so urgent and critical it really couldn’t wait. But there’s no way, just no fucking way, that work on both Vauxhall and London Bridges was so urgent neither could be delayed a few weeks until the other one was reopened. Ditto the great majority of roadworks I’ve seen in the Chelsea area.

It is either through the pinnacle of incompetence and stupidity, or a cynical deliberate plan to make traffic as horrendous as possible, that TFL could have possibly allowed this to happen.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 11, 2020)

T & P said:


> It is either through the pinnacle of incompetence and stupidity, or a cynical deliberate plan to make traffic as horrendous as possible, that TFL could have possibly allowed this to happen.



<Ex-London-dweller posts?  >

*The other possibilty for those responsible for road-bollard-wrangling and JCB-allocation around London Government?* :
Could or should we take advantage of 'not much if any traffic around right now in Coronaland' in order to get these transport-links/repairs done ...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 11, 2020)

T & P said:


> It is either through the pinnacle of incompetence and stupidity, or a cynical deliberate plan to make traffic as horrendous as possible, that TFL could have possibly allowed this to happen.



while TFL is not always completely blameless for everything, i've seen something elsewhere on the web this evening suggesting that one or two tory boroughs have put restrictions in, but are now saying they will take them out and blaming TFL / Sadiq Khan for them being there...


----------



## Numbers (Sep 12, 2020)

Missus and I went or a tapas last night on Curtain Rd, on the way home we had to pass by Boxpark to get to the station, holy fuck is all I'll say.  Dozens and dozens and dozens of people queuing / hanging around / drinking, not a mask in sight and absolutely zero social distancing.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Sep 12, 2020)

Numbers said:


> Missus and I went or a tapas last night on Curtain Rd, on the way home we had to pass by Boxpark to get to the station, holy fuck is all I'll say.  Dozens and dozens and dozens of people queuing / hanging around / drinking, not a mask in sight and absolutely zero social distancing.


I rarely go out in central London but I was in Soho on Thursday night. All the restaurants around Gerard St/Old Compton St etc. have outside seating because of COVID and the streets are closed to traffic. It was absolutely buzzing but no real social distancing and of course no masks because everyone is eating and drinking.

Whilst it may not be the best in the current climate I really hope it becomes the norm as it was great.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2020)

Going through Dalston on a bus right now and every pub I pass is rammed. It _is_ nice weather but the combination of that and the rule of six on Monday means I suspect that's going to be the case all over and only increase. (I have not been in the pub, I was on a photo walk, admittedly with 20 people )


----------



## Sue (Sep 12, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Going through Dalston on a bus right now and every pub I pass is rammed. It _is_ nice weather but the combination of that and the rule of six on Monday means I suspect that's going to be the case all over and only increase. (I have not been in the pub, I was on a photo walk, admittedly with 20 people )


It's been like that since the pubs re-opened (and the parks too throughout). Even when Hackney had really high infection rates.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 12, 2020)

Was in clapham junction last night and it was busy but not rammed. We sat outside. I did go in for the toilet. Tables full but no one standing. It was ok but cant see me repeating the experience very soon.


----------



## Numbers (Sep 12, 2020)

Pubs around me today are pretty full.  One in particular at the top of my road is a proper drinkers pub, i.e. all day every day, usually full of older people ( a lot older than me anyway and I'm 50) who one could say have a drinking problem and aren't in the best of health, the place is tiny and absolutely packed today.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Sep 12, 2020)

I reckon that if I was in that demographic I’d rather take my chances down the pub than stay home and stew in my own juices.

And for somewhat different reasons, I think that if I was in my teens/ twenties right now I’d be out and about and giving it large. Partly because during those years I didn’t spend time with anyone outside my own age group, not at work or socialising.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Sep 12, 2020)

I had to travel to Knightsbridge yesterday so I took the Tube, for the first time since February.

I wondered if it woulda feel like a novel experience, but it didn’t. I guess that Tube dust is ingrained under my skin like a grimy tan. It actually felt really comforting and familiar. 

I worried it would be stupid, but it wasn’t. I saw only two people without masks and everyone was behaving in sensibly distanced fashion (alternate seats, and no-one sitting directly opposite each other, everyone staying as staggered as possible, no one crowding on the escalators, everyone sticking to the correct lane for walking, moving away from each other).

I worried it would be busy but it wasn’t. It was like the olden days of yore. I deliberately travelled at a time I hoped would be quiet, so I’ve no idea what rush hour is like. But even the exchange at Green Park wasn’t busy. And Knightsbridge was dead quiet. I suppose because there are no tourists and all the super-rich are sheltering in their havens. I saw six humans at Knightsbridge station and two of those were staff. The streets were quieter too.

Then when I got off the Tube coming home to Brixton it was busy and crowded and pushy and  my anxiety spiked.


----------



## Numbers (Sep 12, 2020)

We got the Jubilee line from Canning Town (hardly any fuckin mask wearers ) to Canada Water, usually it would get absolute choca-bloc at the Wharf, but maybe 4 people got on and this was at 6:15pm on a Friday evening.  Really weird experience.  The overground from Canada Water to Shoreditch was somewhat busier and I only spotted 1 guy without a mask.

Not sure what it is around these ends with people not wearing one, or wearing them wrong - seems a lot more adherence anywhere else I go.


----------



## HalloweenJack (Sep 12, 2020)

In the leafy Royal Borough, it seems masks are pretty prevalent
Even in the streets, it looks like an OAP LARP production of. Sergio Leone film
Which leads me to wonder, with all the hipster congregations of unmasked revellers, and in such a crowded city, why is London presently lower than those Northern hotspots?


----------



## marty21 (Sep 12, 2020)

Sue said:


> It's been like that since the pubs re-opened (and the parks too throughout). Even when Hackney had really high infection rates.


I have been to a couple of Hackney pubs but never at peak times , so the Crooked Billet is fine early doors but suspect it may get rammed later on. Currently having a cheeky couple in the Jolly Butchers, table service only (you get Table Service and order at the bar at the Billet) and it is fairly quiet, apart from the crowded tables outside .


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

Numbers said:


> We got the Jubilee line from Canning Town (hardly any fuckin mask wearers ) to Canada Water, usually it would get absolute choca-bloc at the Wharf, but maybe 4 people got on and this was at 6:15pm on a Friday evening.  Really weird experience.  The overground from Canada Water to Shoreditch was somewhat busier and I only spotted 1 guy without a mask.
> 
> Not sure what it is around these ends with people not wearing one, or wearing them wrong - seems a lot more adherence anywhere else I go.


i saw a map of London projected Covid cases and it was right around your way that was the hotspot. Cant remember where now, on another thread most likely


----------



## nagapie (Sep 12, 2020)

HalloweenJack said:


> In the leafy Royal Borough, it seems masks are pretty prevalent
> Even in the streets, it looks like an OAP LARP production of. Sergio Leone film
> Which leads me to wonder, with all the hipster congregations of unmasked revellers, and in such a crowded city, why is London presently lower than those Northern hotspots?


Probably because we all had it in March!


----------



## Sue (Sep 12, 2020)

marty21 said:


> I have been to a couple of Hackney pubs but never at peak times , so the Crooked Billet is fine early doors but suspect it may get rammed later on. Currently having a cheeky couple in the Jolly Butchers, table service only (you get Table Service and order at the bar at the Billet) and it is fairly quiet, apart from the crowded tables outside .


Haven't been to any but the ones in Dalston are packed when I walk past.


----------



## Numbers (Sep 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i saw a map of London projected Covid cases and it was right around your way that was the hotspot. Cant remember where now, on another thread most likely


It sucks man, been like it since the off too.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 12, 2020)

HalloweenJack said:


> Which leads me to wonder, with all the hipster congregations of unmasked revellers, and in such a crowded city, why is London presently lower than those Northern hotspots?



Sadly it seems London is catching up with the North & Midlands, with some boroughs only a week or two behind, bearing in mind infection rates have tripled within just a week, in some areas. 



> The rate of new confirmed coronavirus cases in London has increased in 30 boroughs, according to new figures. The rolling seven-day rate of Covid-19 cases shows that new cases per 100,000 people is highest in Redbridge, Hounslow and Havering.
> 
> Infection rates in 18 boroughs are now above the Government's threshold for imposing quarantine restrictions on holidaymakers returning to the UK from abroad.
> 
> The borough with the highest rate is Redbridge, with 110 new cases at a rate of 36 per 100,000, up from 44 new cases the previous week. It is followed by Hounslow, which recorded 88 cases at a rate of 32.4.











						New coronavirus cases jump in 30 London boroughs, latest data shows
					

Infection rates in 18 boroughs are above the Government's threshold for imposing quarantine restrictions




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2020)

Sue said:


> It's been like that since the pubs re-opened (and the parks too throughout). Even when Hackney had really high infection rates.


This is the first time I've been up east in months, but I had to get off the bus after that and walk through Shoreditch (a protest was blocking Old Street roundabout) and there were definitely people out in their glad rags at 4pm. I mean that wouldn't be unusual on a pre-COVID Saturday of course.

Pubs are a lot quieter round my way in Shepherd's Bush, but then most of them don't really cater for locals much anyway, and the Empire is still boarded up.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 12, 2020)

Went into London for a concert, so first time heading in on tube on a Saturday night. I have to say [old curmudgeon mode on] we had sat either side of us most of the journey two very annoying groups of younger folks, some of whom were wearing masks but others not and practically yelling everything at their mates.

Borough Market area was heaving though market shut by that hour - by luck daughter and I grabbed an outdoor table at Brindisa which, I have to say, was doing a much better job of distancing their tables properly than most places I have been to or seen. They seem to have, quite sensibly, dropped some stall space in the market to allow for outdoors but covered spaced eating for surrounding restaurants - I guess that's why it's so busy, as people know it's got a lot of all-weather outdoor eating capacity.

Concert was lovely - paid over the odds as frankly I was just happy to support some musicians. They hadn't quite realised how long it would take to get everyone in with getting tracking details so it started half an hour late, but it was lovely to hear and didn't feel too weird.

Tube on the way home was OK, but then it was only 10pm - I expect by 11pm there was fuck all mask wearing or attempting to social distance going on.


----------



## T & P (Sep 13, 2020)

And what of the time-honoured tradition of a good pub punch-up of a Saturday night during the pandemic? I think every pub should be made to stock a few of these for safe fighting


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2020)

Cloo : Really glad you had a good time going to your concert 

But!

What was it?

Classical or  gig?
Or _inbetween_ those over-defined  categories??


----------



## Cloo (Sep 14, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Cloo : Really glad you had a good time going to your concert
> 
> But!
> 
> ...


Classical,  small string ensemble, London Concertante


----------



## zora (Sep 14, 2020)

Two discrete phenomena I have observed since the beginning of unlockening: 

People coughing without covering their mouths. It's almost as if they have heard that you shouldn't cough into your bare hand, but didn't get to the bit about the tissue or the elbow. Maybe they are just rude and inconsiderate, but the manner in which they do it, seeming to almost deliberately hold back the mouth covering impulse, makes me think the former. 

Dead pigeons/pigeon parts. Ever since I have started walking to work from mid-June, I have noticed a lot more dead pigeons than before. The very occasional one that got hit by a car, but more often either a completely intact plump one in the middle of the path that looks like it's dropped out of the sky, or a body part - this morning a perfectly fanned out wing (boak!). Practically every day. 

Anyone else noticing this?


----------



## teuchter (Sep 14, 2020)

Do you cover more miles on foot than you used to? That might be why you are seeing more pigeon things.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 14, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Do you cover more miles on foot than you used to? That might be why you are seeing more pigeon things.



Yeah, if you didn't used to walk to work and now you do, you'll see more things at ground level.


----------



## Cerv (Sep 14, 2020)

Mrs Miggins said:


> I rarely go out in central London but I was in Soho on Thursday night. All the restaurants around Gerard St/Old Compton St etc. have outside seating because of COVID and the streets are closed to traffic. It was absolutely buzzing but no real social distancing and of course no masks because everyone is eating and drinking.
> 
> Whilst it may not be the best in the current climate I really hope it becomes the norm as it was great.


the temporary pedestrianisation & outdoor licensing in Soho is scheduled to end on 30/09 unfortunately. no word from the council yet about extending as far as I know.
granted it was always going to be less popular as the weather turns. but I think that suddenly cutting it off rather than letting things wind down naturally is a mistake.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 14, 2020)

Cerv said:


> the temporary pedestrianisation & outdoor licensing in Soho is scheduled to end on 30/09 unfortunately. no word from the council yet about extending as far as I know.
> granted it was always going to be less popular as the weather turns. but I think that suddenly cutting it off rather than letting things wind down naturally is a mistake.



I suspect there will be a curfew on pubs & restaurants before the end of the month TBH.


----------



## zora (Sep 14, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Yeah, if you didn't used to walk to work and now you do, you'll see more things at ground level.



Mmm, the thought occurred to me, too - I was just rather hoping it was something more glamorous/sinister than that!


----------



## teuchter (Sep 15, 2020)

The smog seems to be well and truly back today


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 15, 2020)

Took my first train(s) on Sunday.  What a strange and slightly unpleasant experience.  The trains themselves were pretty empty but you could easily see how any level of viral spread prevention measures would be virtually impossible with even something like 30% capacity.  

The stations are strange dystopian scenes with all the concessions closed (inc Clapham Junction even though it was quite busy) and one way systems everywhere.  It was nice to be back in the Centre of London and doing London things for the first time since early February but really I cannot see how we have a hope of it even being half normal by Christmas.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 15, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Took my first train(s) on Sunday.  What a strange and slightly unpleasant experience.  The trains themselves were pretty empty but you could easily see how any level of viral spread prevention measures would be virtually impossible with even something like 30% capacity.


I don't really see any reason to assume it would be worse than being in a shop or a restaurant.

The main thing that bothers me on trains is the number of people with masks on their chins yabbering away to each other or into their phone.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 15, 2020)

Got my 1st tube since March today (Liverpool St - Kings X)  fairy empty,  most people in masks , fairly pleasant journey tbf.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 15, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I don't really see any reason to assume it would be worse than being in a shop or a restaurant.
> 
> The main thing that bothers me on trains is the number of people with masks on their chins yabbering away to each other or into their phone.



I agree about the masks being worn around the chin.  I think with the trains they just feel a lot less clean than a shop or restaurant as its just not possible to clean them regularly enough.  Also people move around trains in a way they don't in a restaurant and simple things like gathering at the train door when a stop is coming is second nature.

I think a lot of these things will come down to one's own perception or risk but I dunno I just felt more on edge on the train than anywhere else previously.  I do accept that its probably in large part due to it being my first train journey since the virus struck.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 15, 2020)

Trains are generally cleaned every night which is likely to be as good as a restaurant or shop, with the exception of things like tables perhaps. 

I suppose my perception of risk is more focused on what's in the air, as that's what you don't have much control over - it's generally possible to choose not to touch things. A non crowded air conditioned train with most people wearing masks feels a lot less risky to me than a pub or restaurant where everyone's shouting and talking and where I know that the ventilation system probably doesn't function anywhere near the rate it's supposed to (if at all).


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Sep 15, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> I agree about the masks being worn around the chin.  I think with the trains they just feel a lot less clean than a shop or restaurant as its just not possible to clean them regularly enough.  Also people move around trains in a way they don't in a restaurant and simple things like gathering at the train door when a stop is coming is second nature.
> 
> I think a lot of these things will come down to one's own perception or risk but I dunno I just felt more on edge on the train than anywhere else previously.  I do accept that its probably in large part due to it being my first train journey since the virus struck.



I felt a bit edgy the first time I was back on a train, I think it was a combo of the unsettling posters & voice announcements*, and knowing you're trapped until the next stop.

I was on an actual crowded train for the first time at the weekend (only a 20 minute journey) & the driver did remind everyone to mask up at every stop, and everyone actually did, which was encouraging.  Not ideal, but it didn't feel too bad.

I quite like the announcements at Kings Cross now - a female voice intoning "Please wear a mask... This is to protect us _all_" in full Rachael from Bladerunner style.   "Do you like our owl...?"


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 15, 2020)

What's the state of air conditioning on trains? I've always assumed it's not really fresh air coming in but I need to educate myself.
I feel worse about train travel than shops I think. But my train journeys tend to be lengthy and my shop trips are quick.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 15, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> What's the state of air conditioning on trains? I've always assumed it's not really fresh air coming in but I need to educate myself.
> I feel worse about train travel than shops I think. But my train journeys tend to be lengthy and my shop trips are quick.



It would need to be new air rather than circulating existing air.  On a car you can choose which option, I'm not sure how it works on trains.

The air conditioning on my local trains (SW Railway) is pretty much all terrible.  Though most of the trains are relatively modern the AC never seems to be working or at least working well enough.  In the summer they are always horrible sweat boxes worse than the old trains without AC because at least you could open the windows.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> It would need to be new air rather than circulating existing air.  On a car you can choose which option, I'm not sure how it works on trains.
> 
> The air conditioning on my local trains (SW Railway) is pretty much all terrible.  Though most of the trains are relatively modern the AC never seems to be working or at least working well enough.  In the summer they are always horrible sweat boxes worse than the old trains without AC because at least you could open the windows.


take an automatic centre punch and you can open almost any windows wherever you may be


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Sep 15, 2020)

It doesnt feel like fresh air (possibly pointless anecdote to follow) I moved into an empty carriage the other day that stank of cigarette smoke  to the point that I could smell it on my clothes the next day. Very wierd.

On the tube there's usually plenty of air coming in through the end windows, even if it feels like it's been underground since the previous century.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 15, 2020)

They will have a mixture of recirculated air and fresh air introduced into the flow. The recirculated air will go through filters but who knows how effective they are against corona. 

How effective the AC is at heating or cooling is not necessarily an indication of how often the air is changed over. A system might not be good at cooling the air on a hot day and with a busy train, but it still might be circulating it at a good rate. 

On suburban trains quite a bit of air will come in and out at station stops, long distance trains less so.

Sitting in a ropey pub... There might be an AC unit blasting away but with zero fresh air intake and filters that have never been changed or even installed. 

Arguably the main danger with AC and ventilation systems is that they actively spread air (and therefore potential infection) around a large area - say they have an intake on one side of the room and an outlet on the other. 

As I understand it, most vehicles like planes, trains and buses tend to circulate the air fairly locally and vertically rather than horizontally, ie. an intake at floor level and outlet at ceiling level, or vice versa.


----------



## Jay Park (Sep 15, 2020)




----------



## clicker (Sep 15, 2020)

The only bad dream I've had throughout all this madness, had me walking through a tube subway and getting hit with that warm whoosh of air you can feel before you get to the platform. It happens if a train's coming in even though you can't see it, if that makes sense. Must admit that whoosh gives me the fear, haven't been on a tube since March.
Mind you I've no idea if it's any worse if air comes at you fast and sudden. 
Have felt ok on overheads, but not travelled peak. 
Have been in 2 pubs sat outside, can't see me going inside and indoor restaurants are not calling me.
It's here for ages isn't it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2020)

teuchter said:


> They will have a mixture of recirculated air and fresh air introduced into the flow. The recirculated air will go through filters but who knows how effective they are against corona.
> 
> How effective the AC is at heating or cooling is not necessarily an indication of how often the air is changed over. A system might not be good at cooling the air on a hot day and with a busy train, but it still might be circulating it at a good rate.
> 
> ...


you're more likely in danger from legionella than cv20


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Sep 15, 2020)

This explains a bit about different kinds of ventilation (in buildings not trains)


----------



## nyxx (Sep 16, 2020)

The pendolino trains that v***** trains made managed to have the ac redistribute the air from the toilets throughout the entire train. They absolutely stink.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 16, 2020)

For anyone interested in infection risk on public transport I've started a thread here









						The actual covid risk on public transport
					

My feeling, which may be subject to my own bias, is that public transport has ended up being excessively stigmatised as a major source of infection.  Here's a thread to collect information on what we do and don't know about infection risk on public transport. I'll start with this article from El...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## marty21 (Sep 17, 2020)

I was in our main office yesterday,  picking up and dropping off stuff. It's an 11 floor office block with 9 floors of offices, apparently before lockdown it could accommodate 2000 workers , I was chatting to people there yesterday, maybe 100 people working there. It is central london-ish , loads of chain cafes reliant on offices like that, 5% going into the office!


----------



## teuchter (Sep 17, 2020)

Renters fleeing inner London in 'race for space', data suggests
					

Places such as Chessington becoming more popular with rise of home working




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Renters are swapping inner London transport hubs for homes further afield as the need to commute has become less important than a desire for space, data on searches on property website Rightmove suggests.
> 
> 
> Analysis of 60m searches in August showed steep falls in the number of searches for rental homes in commuter hubs such as Earl’s Court in west London, and New Cross in the south, while areas in outer London and beyond registered big increases.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 17, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Renters fleeing inner London in 'race for space', data suggests
> 
> 
> Places such as Chessington becoming more popular with rise of home working
> ...



That makes sense.  There are a lot of companies already saying they are looking at 2021 for getting people back to the office.  Rent by its nature is often short terms so why not get yourself a bigger place for a bit.  

A lot of the things that make London a great place to live are not great at the moment so I can see why people are asking what is the point?  I don't anticipate this will be a long term trend but we'll see.


----------



## davesgcr (Sep 17, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Trains are generally cleaned every night which is likely to be as good as a restaurant or shop, with the exception of things like tables perhaps.
> 
> I suppose my perception of risk is more focused on what's in the air, as that's what you don't have much control over - it's generally possible to choose not to touch things. A non crowded air conditioned train with most people wearing masks feels a lot less risky to me than a pub or restaurant where everyone's shouting and talking and where I know that the ventilation system probably doesn't function anywhere near the rate it's supposed to (if at all).



Trains are cleaned at night - but now on a much enhanced programe , and frequency for deep cleaning , plus there are groups of extra cleaners doing in service passenger area cleaning - concentrating on touch points (door open buttons, handrails etc) , as well as table surfaces (where provided) - for example everything turning round at St Albans gets a clean , ditto Luton, Bedford and many other locations. Inter City trains are seeing cleaning on route - not just litter picking but surface wiping. These are redeployed staff and new entrants.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 17, 2020)

First day for me back in the City since early March.

And I’ve just realised what’s so eerie. I can’t ever remember being in the City before and not having a constant aural assault from construction work. Almost nobody is hammering anything almost anywhere.  (Ironically, the one place they seem to be is opposite my building...)


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 17, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> That makes sense.  There are a lot of companies already saying they are looking at 2021 for getting people back to the office.  Rent by its nature is often short terms so why not get yourself a bigger place for a bit.
> 
> A lot of the things that make London a great place to live are not great at the moment so I can see why people are asking what is the point?  I don't anticipate this will be a long term trend but we'll see.



Some sort of outdoor space is going to be premium while flats with no garden space or balcony will probably end up having lower rent in more central locations.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 17, 2020)

And this is my office.  These desks are usually >75% occupied


This floor has room for several hundred people.  There’s five people in today.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 17, 2020)

kabbes said:


> First day for me back in the City since early March.
> 
> And I’ve just realised what’s so eerie. I can’t ever remember being in the City before and not having a constant aural assault from construction work. Almost nobody is hammering anything almost anywhere.  (Ironically, the one place they seem to be is opposite my building...)


I was in the city yesterday (walked from Barbican Tube to Liverpool St Station,  you're right there was less building works, way fewer people . I drove in a few weeks ago (parked near Moorgate) totally forgot the congestion zone is 7 days a week , that was expensive parking


----------



## davesgcr (Sep 17, 2020)

davesgcr said:


> Trains are cleaned at night - but now on a much enhanced programe , and frequency for deep cleaning , plus there are groups of extra cleaners doing in service passenger area cleaning - concentrating on touch points (door open buttons, handrails etc) , as well as table surfaces (where provided) - for example everything turning round at St Albans gets a clean , ditto Luton, Bedford and many other locations. Inter City trains are seeing cleaning on route - not just litter picking but surface wiping. These are redeployed staff and new entrants.



Yes - if you see these cleaning bods at stations , be nice and say thanks to them. I always do. They often do 12 hour shifts. 

Useless fact - New York City subway doing much the same - no night service for heavy cleaning and enhanced in service cleans. Someone went out and did about 34 random COVID checks on in service trains - not a single positive.  

Somehow need to get passengers back on public transport , they having been scared off them for so long by the media etc.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 17, 2020)

kabbes said:


> First day for me back in the City since early March.
> 
> And I’ve just realised what’s so eerie. I can’t ever remember being in the City before and not having a constant aural assault from construction work. Almost nobody is hammering anything almost anywhere.  (Ironically, the one place they seem to be is opposite my building...)


I was going to say "that sounds weird" but then I remembered that, while there was loads of construction going on not too long ago in my area, a lot of it was probably finishing off old work that had to be paused, and I'd guess there is little new work.

Doubt I will be in an office this year. I started a new job with a company which used to rent a city office, but I doubt they're going to renew the contract, so the only time I'll have actually gone there is for the interview pre-lockdown.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 17, 2020)

davesgcr said:


> Yes - if you see these cleaning bods at stations , be nice and say thanks to them. I always do. They often do 12 hour shifts.
> 
> Useless fact - New York City subway doing much the same - no night service for heavy cleaning and enhanced in service cleans. Someone went out and did about 34 random COVID checks on in service trains - not a single positive.
> 
> Somehow need to get passengers back on public transport , they having been scared off them for so long by the media etc.


The workers that most people never see, never think about, the most poorly paid undervalued workers doing a filthy, difficult job many people wouldnt ever think about.

These difficult times have certainly made many people so grateful and appreciative.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 18, 2020)

Latest unlockening indicator - the "British Pullman" fancy dinner train usually rolls through Brixton and Loughborough Junction a couple times a week - that all stopped in March.

I've just seen it run again for the first time since then.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 18, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Is it time for 'london: the relockening' thread yet?



how about now?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> how about now?


Give it a day or two


----------



## Griff (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> First day for me back in the City since early March.
> 
> And I’ve just realised what’s so eerie. I can’t ever remember being in the City before and not having a constant aural assault from construction work. Almost nobody is hammering anything almost anywhere.  (Ironically, the one place they seem to be is opposite my building...)



Took this picture from the top deck of a Routemsster on July 10th at 12.45, lunchtime. It still freaks me out looking at it, the lack of people where there should be so many. Queen Victoria Street.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Renters fleeing inner London in 'race for space', data suggests
> 
> 
> Places such as Chessington becoming more popular with rise of home working
> ...



Its weird the different perceptions of risk people have because I just can't imagine buying a brand new house or looking for somewhere to rent by choice* right now, even without the risk of Covid around the economy is a fingertip grip from falling off a cliff. 


*well aware theres more than a few not doing this by choice.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 18, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its weird the different perceptions of risk people have because I just can't imagine buying a brand new house or looking for somewhere to rent by choice* right now, even without the risk of Covid around the economy is a fingertip grip from falling off a cliff.
> 
> 
> *well aware theres more than a few not doing this by choice.


I can totally see why, if you are sitting in an expensive studio flat in Earls court, with no outside space, no immediate prospect of returning to a workplace in central london, most of your normal central london entertainments closed down and possible redundancy looming, you might decide to find somewhere cheaper and less cramped, further out from town.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 18, 2020)

The guy who owns the flat below me got hacked off with his commute into Canary Wharf each day.  Back in January he decided to rent his own flat out and rent a serviced studio in Canary Wharf itself.

Then, of course, the virus hit and he's since been working from home in said tiny (and stupidly expensive) Canary Wharf studio whilst it's a ghost town all around him with most places closed.  He's pretty philosophical about it just mentioned 'you couldn't make it up'.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 19, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I can totally see why, if you are sitting in an expensive studio flat in Earls court, with no outside space, no immediate prospect of returning to a workplace in central london, most of your normal central london entertainments closed down and possible redundancy looming, you might decide to find somewhere cheaper and less cramped, further out from town.



Also if their tenancy is due for the usual shitty six month renewal, the landlord is still trying to increase the rent and the letting agent is asking for more admin fees, staying put is even less attractive.


----------



## Me76 (Sep 20, 2020)

I've been going in to the office a couple of times a week for mental health reasons.  The 8.28 train has been fine.  

Had a 9am meeting the other day so got the 7.58 train which was not so fine.  Not possible to social distance (and a bit of a foot argument with someone who seemed to think it was fine to stretch their legs out and then give me a dirty look when I put my feet under the seat I was sitting on and they touched hers). 

Tbh, I'm going to have to go in more often soon.  I'm in charge of the team that deal with office shit and we are opening the office more widely.  So I am trying to be sanguine about it.  I will always wear a mask.  I will try not to touch stuff.  I will wash my hands.  I will ignore people who are being dicks and just try to focus on me and not let it stress me.  

I feel this is probably what all key workers, including those in supermarkets, have been doing all the way through.


----------



## HalloweenJack (Sep 21, 2020)

As I go about my day, one this first day of autumn, I wonder whether what I am doing now will be arrestable in 24 hours...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2020)

HalloweenJack said:


> As I go about my day, one this first day of autumn, I wonder whether what I am doing now will be arrestable in 24 hours...


posting here for starters


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 25, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> how about now?



Very shortly by the looks of it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...oronavirus&link_location=live-reporting-story[/URL]


----------



## xenon (Sep 25, 2020)

I just came back from London on Monday, visiting my dad. TBH i'm not bothered about being on the tube and trains for my own sake. Rather than the I imagine / hope, the very small risk of picking up the virus and transferring it to him. It's not like I can get there any other way. Will follow travel advice if things change i.e. no travel unless emergency.


----------



## Cerv (Sep 28, 2020)

Soho lives on. the temporary pedestrianisation to allow outside dining has been extended one month until end October.









						Soho to stay pedestrianised until the end of October
					

Like their peers across the rest of the country, Soho's restaurants remain in a struggle for their own survival – made harder last week by the Government's introduction of a 10pm curfew.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## teuchter (Oct 11, 2020)

Was down on the South Bank yesterday afternoon, and quite surprised how busy it was, despite many of the larger institutions along there still being closed. 

Got the slight impression there was a high proportion of hen/stag type groups roaming around too


----------



## nagapie (Oct 11, 2020)

This thread will probably shortly have to be renamed London: the relockening 😔


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 11, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Was down on the South Bank yesterday afternoon, and quite surprised how busy it was, despite many of the larger institutions along there still being closed.
> 
> Got the slight impression there was a high proportion of hen/stag type groups roaming around too


So was I and I also thought both of those things - well, not sure whether they were hen/stag or just people going out or both, but generally very busy. Even more skateboarders than normal. A fair number of tourists in town too.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2020)

Went to the British Museum this morning to see the Tantra exhibition. It was quite nice and quiet inside but of course they are controlling numbers.

Then hung around outside Oxford Circus tube for 10 minutes waiting for daughter and that seemed really quite busy, as was Soho (where we went for lunch).

The tube there and back was still not up to usual levels.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Oct 11, 2020)

I braved a soft play place for an hour late afternoon this evening, for the first time in 6/7 months. They were operating at 40% capacity and sanitising regularly and it is a very big place, so it doesn't feel like it was any riskier than the kids being at school and us adults using pubs or restaurants with measures in place. 

So all it seemed sensible...until 5:30pm kicking out time when all the kids and all the parents (many without masks) crowded into the small reception area to retrieve and put on the kids' shoes. 

My takeway from this, was that if you don't think about these things from start to finish, there isn't much point in the half you do at all


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 11, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Was down on the South Bank yesterday afternoon, and quite surprised how busy it was, despite many of the larger institutions along there still being closed.
> 
> Got the slight impression there was a high proportion of hen/stag type groups roaming around too



Left my shared studio late last night around 6pm and it was the first time I felt truly and totally anxious about population denisty, the buses and Liverpool St were rammed. Had to get off the bus well before my actual stop.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 11, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> I braved a soft play place for an hour late afternoon this evening, for the first time in 6/7 months. They were operating at 40% capacity and sanitising regularly and it is a very big place, so it doesn't feel like it was any riskier than the kids being at school and us adults using pubs or restaurants with measures in place.
> 
> So all it seemed sensible...until 5:30pm kicking out time when all the kids and all the parents (many without masks) crowded into the small reception area to retrieve and put on the kids' shoes.
> 
> My takeway from this, was that if you don't think about these things from start to finish, there isn't much point in the half you do at all



The Greenwich Comedy festival - which was outdoors anyway - had people leave row by row. Something like that seems sensible.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 15, 2020)

So, here we are at the un-unlockening.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 15, 2020)

Lockeny Geezer, apples and pairs, alf a pound of Corona.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

teuchter said:


> So, here we are at the un-unlockening.


I thought you'd be very happy at the re-locking


----------



## hash tag (Oct 15, 2020)

😰


----------



## hash tag (Oct 15, 2020)

I am selfishly not worried for myself as I am not mixing indoors with anyone, though Mrs Tag is still going into her office occasionally and might catch it.Generally, Im finding it all rather depressing.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought you'd be very happy at the re-locking



But, this is the whole of London, not just a bathroom door.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, this is the whole of London, not just a bathroom door.


Nonetheless it is a great wen


----------



## Winot (Oct 18, 2020)

Cycled to Lambeth Bridge yesterday, left our bikes and walked to the Oxo Tower and back.

The South Bank was pretty busy. Not that different to pre-pandemic I’d have said. The usual crowds of tourists around the London Eye, which surprisingly was running. I suppose the pods are at least isolated from each other. Groups of friends (from the same household ) dining in the weird pod things outside the Queen Elizabeth Hall and the undercroft skate park was the busiest I’ve ever seen it. No particularly risky behaviour going on and it was quite spirit-lifting to see so many people out having fun.


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 18, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Left my shared studio late last night around 6pm and it was the first time I felt truly and totally anxious about population denisty, the buses and Liverpool St were rammed. Had to get off the bus well before my actual stop.


I had to change from train to bus at Liverpool Street on Friday post pub time. It was horribly busy. Throngs of people shouting at each other. And of course the buses just kept going past as they were too full.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2020)

Went for a walk across town yesterday. Still very quiet in the City. Around Covent Garden there were quite a few people milling around but not the crowds you'd usually expect.



Oxford St optimistically has christmas lights up. It was busy-ish - certainly not deserted - but not as busy as would be "normal" on a Saturday afternoon.



Further along Oxford St I came across a conspiraloon march.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2020)

One thing that I noticed yesterday, which wasn't the case a couple of months ago, was quite a lot of empty/cleared out shop units.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 18, 2020)

They’ve accidentally hit on a good idea when it comes to disbanding the so-called “behavioural insights“ team, mind.


----------



## zora (Oct 19, 2020)

The central London shop where I work today didn't feel much less busy than last week (i.e. not very busy anyway), but it did seem that both staff and customers were being much more mindful of distancing as well as proper mask wearing. Long may it continue! 
The busses I saw going past on my journey home seemed less busy again, and the poor pubs as well. I do think it's necessary but I did feel somewhat sad and sorry for these places that have only recently reopened with so much thought having gone into everything and are now scuppered by the "no indoors household mixing" rule. :/


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 19, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Went for a walk across town yesterday. Still very quiet in the City. Around Covent Garden there were quite a few people milling around but not the crowds you'd usually expect.
> 
> View attachment 234865
> 
> ...



Looks like quite a big crowd.

Too pic, bottom right - gentleman sporting a spiffingly good moustache.


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 19, 2020)

I'm on holiday this week and had a little outing to Greenwich. There was a grand total of two other visitors to the Painted Hall at the same time as me. And the market was pretty dead, but then it is a Monday.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 4, 2020)

Popped into two pubs in the way home, both fully booked. People will go out before the relockening.


----------



## wtfftw (Nov 4, 2020)

I went "up west" for the first time since march. Definitely quieter than pre march. Did queue to get into flying tiger and eat Tokyo. Still much less Central traffic.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2020)

I was in town on Saturday and it was pretty busy. 

West end early evening -


----------



## Johnny Doe (Nov 4, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Popped into two pubs in the way home, both fully booked. People will go out before the relockening.



Yeah, we went and had a pre-lockdown Wing Wednesday Lunch at my old local. Exceptionally well run pub, really nice staff - I hope they survive


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Popped into two pubs in the way home, both fully booked. People will go out before the relockening.


they'll have to hurry


----------



## nagapie (Nov 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they'll have to hurry


They're sorted, all pre booked.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 4, 2020)

Took a few snaps on the high street.









						2020-11-04 last night before second lockdown
					

Snaps from around Shepherd's Bush on the last night before the second UK lockdown




					www.flickr.com


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2020)

Parliament sqaure, apparently


----------



## T & P (Nov 5, 2020)

Last night there sure was a NYE vibe in town, and not only in the West End. I went to The City on the bike to pick up the OH, and on the way back to South London  every single bar or restaurant with outside tables was absolutely teeming. And that indoor/ outdoor food and craft market place near Elephant and Castle had a social distancing-busting queue that reached back nearly all the way to the gyratory   

The traffic was possibliy the worst I ever seen in London outside of a major incident or a snow-in, as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2020)

T & P said:


> Last night there sure was a NYE vibe in town, and not only in the West End. I went to The City on the bike to pick up the OH, and on the way back to South London  every single bar or restaurant with outside tables was absolutely teeming. And that indoor/ outdoor food and craft market place near Elephant and Castle had a social distancing-busting queue that reached back nearly all the way to the gyratory
> 
> The traffic was possibliy the worst I ever seen in London outside of a major incident or a snow-in, as well.


Think we can safely describe the pandemic as a major incident


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2020)

Traffic was terrible here too - started early and was still packed at eight o'clock. Some awful driving too, people making weird u-turns and pissing everyone else off.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2020)

Going to be interesting to see whether the traffic changes significantly during lockdown 2.0. 

In theory it should show us what proportion of it is in some way "essential".


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 5, 2020)

First thing I've noticed is the trainline next to my flat is very quiet this morning.  We normally get around 7 or 8 trains an hour in each direction (all empty of course).  That seems to be right down to a couple.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> First thing I've noticed is the trainline next to my flat is very quiet this morning.  We normally get around 7 or 8 trains an hour in each direction (all empty of course).  That seems to be right down to a couple.


Which line is that? I'm not aware of the timetable having been reduced anywhere.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 5, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Which line is that? I'm not aware of the timetable having been reduced anywhere.



Its a SW Trains line.  We get several services past us on their way to and from Waterloo.  They're the Reading, Windsor & Eton, Hounslow loop, Kingston loop and the Shepperton service.

ETA: Maybe they've just shortened the actual trains so I'm not noticing them as much but it does feel much much quieter.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Its a SW Trains line.  We get several services past us on their way to and from Waterloo.  They're the Reading, Windsor & Eton, Hounslow loop, Kingston loop and the Shepperton service.
> 
> ETA: Maybe they've just shortened the actual trains so I'm not noticing them as much but it does feel much much quieter.


I wonder if it's just the heavy fog, assuming you have that there too. It can change how sound travels. A bit like when there's a lot of snow.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 5, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I wonder if it's just the heavy fog, assuming you have that there too. It can change how sound travels. A bit like when there's a lot of snow.



You're probably right.  May also be some reduced train speeds as well because of the fog.

I've no idea why they would be running a full service though.  Most trains have been virtually empty before today anyway so it seems a bit unnecessary now.


----------



## Supine (Nov 5, 2020)

Spoke to people at Northern Rail and Avanti West Coast today. Looks like timetables are staying the same apart from London to Manchester which is reducing in frequency. Big caveat - they both thought changes might be made within a week but nothing announced yet.


----------



## T & P (Nov 6, 2020)

Does anyone one know if traffic wardens have ceased their patrols, as they did during the first lockdown?


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 6, 2020)

Went to the supermarket yesterday.  A bit quieter than normal but shelves were pretty much full.  Lots of fireworks going off last night, quite a few people out and about including some fairly large groups.

This has a very different feeling to last time.  This doesn't feel like a lockdown to me, this is how I imagined Tier 3.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Nov 6, 2020)

T & P said:


> Does anyone one know if traffic wardens have ceased their patrols, as they did during the first lockdown?



I got this through my door (dated 22 October) if it's any help?

Seems to indicate that parking enforcement of permits on estates in Lambeth hasn't restarted since the March lockdown, and won't now until 1st December.

On the other hand, I saw a traffic warden out & about today, & sure they've been patrolling recently, so maybe parking permits on estates is a different thing.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 6, 2020)

Ms Ordinary said:


> I got this through my door (dated 22 October) if it's any help?
> 
> Seems to indicate that parking enforcement of permits on estates in Lambeth hasn't restarted since the March lockdown, and won't now until 1st December.
> 
> ...



I guess traffic wardens still need to check for cars parked across corner, in disabled bays, that sort of thing.


----------



## T & P (Nov 6, 2020)

Ms Ordinary said:


> I got this through my door (dated 22 October) if it's any help?
> 
> Seems to indicate that parking enforcement of permits on estates in Lambeth hasn't restarted since the March lockdown, and won't now until 1st December.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I have a free motorcycle parking bay further down my street, but during the first lockdown when the wardens were told to stop working I took to parking my motorbike right outside our front door. I will do the same this next four weeks if it turns out the street patrolling wardens have been given the month off.


----------



## T & P (Nov 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I guess traffic wardens still need to check for cars parked across corner, in disabled bays, that sort of thing.


Yes, I am pretty sure proper infractions like the ones you describe were still being policed during the lockdown, but the controlled parking zones for residents were not so long as a vehicle was properly parked.


----------



## T & P (Nov 6, 2020)

Well, I am one of those who cannot work from home and am still commuting during the lockdown, and both yesterday and today the amount of traffic around since lockdown 2 started is undoubtedly much higher than lockdown 1. And pedestrians and people about, in general. I suspect this ain’t going to make that much of a dent in the R numbers..


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2020)

It's absolutely nothing like lockdown 1. You could stand in the middle of the road then and very occasionally you'd have to move away because a car was coming past. Big cycling groups were all over the place just because of that.

This isn't a lockdown at all. People are still going to work, schools are still open, it's basically the same as a week ago except you can't have fun, and also nobody is paying attention anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's absolutely nothing like lockdown 1. You could stand in the middle of the road then and very occasionally you'd have to move away because a car was coming past. Big cycling groups were all over the place just because of that.
> 
> This isn't a lockdown at all. People are still going to work, schools are still open, it's basically the same as a week ago except you can't have fun, and also nobody is paying attention anyway.


You won't believe what will happen in lockdown 3


----------



## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This isn't a lockdown at all. People are still going to work, schools are still open, it's basically the same as a week ago except you can't have fun, and also nobody is paying attention anyway.



Except it isnt true that nobody is paying attention. Less people are than last time, but those whose behaviour has changed in recent weeks likely still represent a large enough group that these changes will show up in the data at some point. In much the same way that despite the vast reopenings earlier in the year, the R went back up but not back to 3+ like it was before the pandemic awareness formed.

But yes, certainly expect much less of an effect with this one on its own due to keeping schools and more workplaces open. So we'll be reliant on other aspects of the epidemic evolution, differences in risk taking by different age groups, and other existing measures (eg masks) in order to hope that the decrease in infections is substantial enough to get hospital admission rates down. The half term holiday would also have been expected to have some effect, and even though it was much shorter than such measures should really be, effects of it may still show up in the data.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2020)

elbows said:


> Except it isnt true that nobody is paying attention. Less people are than last time, but those whose behaviour has changed in recent weeks likely still represent a large enough group that these changes will show up in the data at some point. In much the same way that despite the vast reopenings earlier in the year, the R went back up but not back to 3+ like it was before the pandemic awareness formed.


Yeah I don't feel the need to defend obvious hyperbole. There will be an effect, but calling this a "lockdown" in context is nonsense, and I'm sceptical that the effect will reach any sort of effective level before it's all lifted anyway because christmas.


----------



## yield (Nov 6, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's absolutely nothing like lockdown 1. You could stand in the middle of the road then and very occasionally you'd have to move away because a car was coming past. Big cycling groups were all over the place just because of that.
> 
> This isn't a lockdown at all. People are still going to work, schools are still open, it's basically the same as a week ago except you can't have fun, and also nobody is paying attention anyway.


The tube is slightly quieter from Zone 6. But yes, it's nothing like Central London was last week of March or when I was unfurloughed at the beginning of July.


----------



## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah I don't feel the need to defend obvious hyperbole. There will be an effect, but calling this a "lockdown" in context is nonsense, and I'm sceptical that the effect will reach any sort of effective level before it's all lifted anyway because christmas.



I gave up on trying to preserve a stronger, purer meaning to the term lockdown the first time, since that wasnt a full lockdown either compared to what some countries did. So I'm afraid I'm just using it how its sloppily used elsewhere, and I need all the shorthand I can find given my tendency to waffle.

This time a lot of countries in Europe have gone for similar measures as us, trying to keep various workplaces and educational establishments open, so if it falls really far short it will be a very widespread failure.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 6, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's absolutely nothing like lockdown 1. You could stand in the middle of the road then and very occasionally you'd have to move away because a car was coming past. Big cycling groups were all over the place just because of that.
> 
> This isn't a lockdown at all. People are still going to work, schools are still open, it's basically the same as a week ago except you can't have fun, and also nobody is paying attention anyway.


I wasn't out and about having loads of fun a week or two ago anyway. This week all them young folk can't either, so at least there's that.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 6, 2020)

Some of it wont be people not paying attention wrt to themselves but businesses staying open so staff having to travel.  And the extra delivery drivers have been recruited now.


----------



## T & P (Nov 7, 2020)

Being allowed to go out to pick up non-essential click and collect purchases seems particularly idiotic to me. One thing that worked pretty well during the first lockdown was the delivery services, even if subject to small delays sometimes. And I know this first hand due to my work.

So why let people go out to click and collect purchases from shops? The delivery companies didn’t particularly struggle in the Spring. If we were in mid December now I could understand any concerns about Xmas shopping being late... There are far too many permitted reasons to leave your home in this lockdown- no wonder there are some many folk about.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 24, 2020)

So now we know the outline of the revised tier system the next big question is what tier will London be in come next month?  Its a bit of a tricky one in that there is great divergence across the area with some boroughs being up over 350 cases per 100,000 whilst the figurer is much closer to a 100 for others.

Whilst I don't think there is a better way of doing things it does show the limitations of having a one size fits all strategy for somewhere as big as London.  Obviously with the lowest numbers still being worryingly high it will be a minimum of tier 2.  I'd say it must be on a knife edge as to whether it will be tier 3.  If you were looking at it purely from a covid perspective than tier 3 is a bit of a no brainer but a London December with effectively no hospitality will be catastrophic for the city's economy and workers.

Hmmm.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> So now we know the outline of the revised tier system the next big question is what tier will London be in come next month?  Its a bit of a tricky one in that there is great divergence across the area with some boroughs being up over 350 cases per 100,000 whilst the figurer is much closer to a 100 for others.
> 
> Whilst I don't think there is a better way of doing things it does show the limitations of having a one size fits all strategy for somewhere as big as London.  Obviously with the lowest numbers still being worryingly high it will be a minimum of tier 2.  I'd say it must be on a knife edge as to whether it will be tier 3.  If you were looking at it purely from a covid perspective than tier 3 is a bit of a no brainer but a London December with effectively no hospitality will be catastrophic for the city's economy and workers.
> 
> Hmmm.


Im dubious we should be coming out of lockdown at all - should be 3 at a minimum

Agree with you, it'll be a 2 then - this lockdown is lifting purely for the sake of crucial December trading, with a January lockdown to follow


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Im dubious we should be coming out of lockdown at all - should be 3 at a minimum
> 
> Agree with you, it'll be a 2 then - this lockdown is lifting purely for the sake of crucial December trading, with a January lockdown to follow



In fairness there really isn't that much difference between tier 3 and the _mockdown_ (stolen from fellow urb) we've just had so, you're probably spot on in your prediction.  Tier 2 till Christmas and then straight into tier 3 for January 1st.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2020)

London infections are actually rising at the moment!


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 24, 2020)

Yes, I've noticed that in my local borough.  At the end of a month lockdown (or at least increased restrictions) as well.  It can only be all the fault of crowded pubs from beyond the grave.  Zombie crowded pubs.


----------



## prunus (Nov 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> London infections are actually rising at the moment!



That graph is hospital admissions which lags infections by something like 2 to 3 weeks, so doesn’t really tell us what is happening at the moment.


----------



## elbows (Nov 24, 2020)

prunus said:


> That graph is hospital admissions which lags infections by something like 2 to 3 weeks, so doesn’t really tell us what is happening at the moment.



The lag is often less than the maximum lengths people are told. Especially when it comes to the difference in timing between different bits of data, since the data itself lags behind reality in various ways, eg the number of infections detected from samples on a particular day is also lagging behind when the infections were actually acquired, and then there are further delays in reporting that data.

Recently I attempted to put various hospital, death and cases figures into a single graph, to see how much lag there was between different measures changing trajectory, both in the first wave and more recently. I have manipulated the scale of the numbers to get them all into approximately the same sort of range, otherwise the data with large numbers in it dwarfs the rest. And my graph is done with the benefit of data publishing hindsight, so its not actually measuring the reporting part of the lag, its not a perfect exercise by a long shot, its just a crude attempt to gain insight into how soon after, for example, hospital admissions peaking, we should see changes to number of people in hospital, deaths etc. And the data is for England only.


My simplified conclusion is that hospital admissions figures will do.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 24, 2020)

South East cases seem to be going up?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 26, 2020)

The key word here is LOBBYING

Tier 2 is a joke: schools, universities, shops, pubs, restaurants, gyms, everything open


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Im dubious we should be coming out of lockdown at all - should be 3 at a minimum
> 
> Agree with you, it'll be a 2 then - this lockdown is lifting purely for the sake of crucial December trading, with a January lockdown to follow



Prescient.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 5, 2020)

If the maps are to be believed, inner london seems to be doing rather better than outer london at present.


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 9, 2020)

Well the jungle drums are beating already for London to be moved up to tier 3.  One of the problems as I see it was that the cases continued to rise in many places whilst we were in lockdown 2.  The writing was kind of already on the wall when lockdown 2 finished and I think what we're seeing here is not a failure of tier 2 per se as the seeds were already sown.

On the plus side all bets are off at Christmas so the great London festive getaway can proceed as normal.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 9, 2020)

Reports are 255 cases per 100,000 in Newham and cases going up every week.

Doesn’t surprise me with the way some feckers carry on.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 9, 2020)

Here's what the map looks like now


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 9, 2020)

I'm double locking the doors tonight.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 9, 2020)

All the schools in my area are sending masses of staff and students home. The relockening is beckoning.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 9, 2020)

The trusty old pincer movement.


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 9, 2020)

I wonder what tier 3 will achieve that lockdown 2 didn't?  Slow it a bit I guess like lockdown 2.

Christ I really wish they'd they'd close the schools a week early and get them back a week later.  Or at least do something with the schools rather than a collective shrug.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 9, 2020)

I have a couple of friends who are primary school teachers (south london).
The last one I spoke to, about a week ago, said that things were pretty much carrying on as normal at her school and there had not been any particular disruption.


----------



## IC3D (Dec 9, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Here's what the map looks like now
> 
> View attachment 242512


At a glance hospitals serving these purple areas were swamped in the first wave. Newham and Whipps, the poor relations of Barts Trust. Troubling to see this.


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 9, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I have a couple of friends who are primary school teachers (south london).
> The last one I spoke to, about a week ago, said that things were pretty much carrying on as normal at her school and there had not been any particular disruption.



There is a significant difference in impact between primary and secondary schools.  That being there are quite a lot of cases still.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 9, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> There is a significant difference in impact between primary and secondary schools.  That being there are quite a lot of cases still.


That would explain it I guess. The last two cases of Covid I've heard about amongst friends/work contacts have been related to teenage kids testing positive (and family isolating as a result).

E2A: I shouldn't really be posting up my anecdata as if it necessarily means much.


----------



## elbows (Dec 9, 2020)

I wouldn't say that the situation in primary schools is much better than in secondary schools. The implications vary because of things like different bubble sizes and different childcare implications when there are outbreaks.

I suspect the primary school situation is actually worse than the impression some people have. 

The following sort of data is hardly a complete guide but it does contain clues.


From https://assets.publishing.service.g...-19_and_Influenza_Surveillance_Graphs_W49.pdf


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 9, 2020)

Oh.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 9, 2020)

elbows said:


> I wouldn't say that the situation in primary schools is much better than in secondary schools. The implications vary because of things like different bubble sizes and different childcare implications when there are outbreaks.
> 
> I suspect the primary school situation is actually worse than the impression some people have.
> 
> ...



I think there would be more primary schools than secondary schools in any one area, if that matters.


----------



## elbows (Dec 9, 2020)

Yeah, which is why I'm not trying to make a huge claim, just counter the impression some seem to have that primary schools have got off relatively unscathed.


----------



## Sue (Dec 9, 2020)

Was just posting on the Hackney thread that numbers are going up round here (though the bits that were very badly affected before look to be doing okayish now). And yeah, looks bad a bit further east/north.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 9, 2020)

I think just by focusing on individual boroughs or London as a whole misses the bigger picture of the spread of Covid in the south east.

I've been watching the south east figures for the past few weeks partly to inform the decision of whether to visit my mum for Xmas in south east London (or north west Kent as she prefers to call it). From what I've seen the roots of the current rise in figures go back before the last lockdown. Covid was taking off in north Kent and would've exploded disastrously if not for the lockdown, which held back the tide and saw falls in some of the worst affected areas (Swale, Thanet).

As lockdown 2 limped to its conclusion cases were already spreading along the north Kent coast - Medway, Gravesend, down to Maidstone. Since then cases have been steadily rising further south in Kent (the MP for Ashford was very outspoken against Kent going into Tier 3; cases there have risen 49.8% in the last week), into east London and along the south Essex coast. Most of the Thames estuary area has seen significant rises in the last week or two.

At first in London it seemed to be the north East that was seeing the biggest rise in cases. Even as London was declared Tier 2 case numbers were rising significantly in some areas such as Redbridge. Now cases are rising across most of the east - Bromley up 30% in the last week, Havering up 32.4% - and some central boroughs and western suburbs. Hackney up 33.3% in a week. Lambeth up 28.5%. Haringey up 54.3%. Some areas to the west are still doing okay - Hammersmith, Ealing, Brent, Hounslow are all down in the last week. But the spread has so far been continuing.

My mum is fine about us not visiting for Xmas this year.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 9, 2020)

i'm in similar difficulties - i've not seen mum-tat since last xmas (i was going to go round for her birthday in february but i had a bit of a cold or something so postponed for a couple of weeks...)

blargh


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 9, 2020)

There's been a serious spread from north Kent heading south over the last week, Maidstone is now over 400 cases per 100k, and Tunbridge Wells is taking off now.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 9, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> There's been a serious spread from north Kent heading south over the last week, Maidstone is now over 400 cases per 100k, and Tunbridge Wells is taking off now.
> 
> View attachment 242568


I think because it's so far only affecting a bit of Kent, a bit of Essex and parts of London it's been possible to overlook this spread to some extent when considering whole counties/the whole city. But Covid doesn't care about administrative boundaries.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 9, 2020)

Spandex said:


> But Covid doesn't care about administrative boundaries.



indeed.  and when you get to london, it's a damn sight more difficult - mum-tat lives in lewisham borough, two streets away is greenwich and two streets away in the other direction is bromley...


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 10, 2020)

Spandex said:


> I think just by focusing on individual boroughs or London as a whole misses the bigger picture of the spread of Covid in the south east.
> 
> I've been watching the south east figures for the past few weeks partly to inform the decision of whether to visit my mum for Xmas in south east London (or north west Kent as she prefers to call it). From what I've seen the roots of the current rise in figures go back before the last lockdown. Covid was taking off in north Kent and would've exploded disastrously if not for the lockdown, which held back the tide and saw falls in some of the worst affected areas (Swale, Thanet).
> 
> ...



Yes, all good points.  The situation in London is really just reflecting the wider situation in vast swathes of the South East, which makes sense really because large parts of it are now essentially one conurbation.


----------



## RubyToogood (Dec 10, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Here's what the map looks like now
> 
> View attachment 242512


Where does this map come from?


----------



## spitfire (Dec 10, 2020)

Year 2 at Mini Fire's school (Hackney/Tower hamlets borders) all sent home to isolate. First big thing that has happened in the school since they went back. Mini Fire is Year 3.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2020)

RubyToogood said:


> Where does this map come from?











						Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard
					

GOV.UK Coronavirus dashboard




					coronavirus.data.gov.uk


----------



## Numbers (Dec 13, 2020)

Appeared y/day.  Makes no difference to the maskless cunts.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 13, 2020)

Bro in law working in public health says London cases doubled in last week - Tier 3 is on its way, but I can't see what earthly difference it makes at this point, especially if people are allowed to visit each other in Christmas week.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Cloo said:


> Bro in law working in public health says London cases doubled in last week - Tier 3 is on its way, but I can't see what earthly difference it makes at this point, especially if people are allowed to visit each other in Christmas week.


Johnson thinks this will so confuse everyone no one will notice crashing out no deal


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Numbers said:


> Appeared y/day.  Makes no difference to the maskless cunts.
> 
> View attachment 243300


I see they've socially isolated the sign


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 14, 2020)

Cloo said:


> Bro in law working in public health says London cases doubled in last week - Tier 3 is on its way, but I can't see what earthly difference it makes at this point, especially if people are allowed to visit each other in Christmas week.



Yes its quite clear that the recent rise is being driven by a number of factors and shutting hospitality didn't halt it in lockdown 2.  I'm 100% confident that London will go into tier 3 but there are dissenting voices and I do understand where they are coming from.









						Covid-19: Moving London into tier 3 would be “big mistake,” warns leading epidemiologist
					

A leading epidemiologist has urged the government not to put the UK capital into strict tier 3 measures next week, saying the move would be a “big mistake.”  Tim Spector, professor of genetic epidemiology at King’s College London and creator of the Covid Symptom Study app,1 was responding to...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

the wheels on the bus come off off off


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 14, 2020)

It seems quite apparent to me that in a lot of areas there are enough people who have largely given up on the restrictions / rules.  Combine that with the everlasting clusterfuck which is the school situation I can see tier 3 lasting a very long time.


----------



## Sue (Dec 14, 2020)

Looking at Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard, E London, NE London, Essex and Kent are a wave of dark blue and purple. SE London isn't looking great either. They really need to move London into Tier 3 now.


----------



## andysays (Dec 14, 2020)

Hancock making an announcement at 15.30, apparently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

andysays said:


> Hancock making an announcement at 15.30, apparently.


resignation hopefully


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2020)

In a pandemic full of predictable failures, setting inappropriate tiers for the South was one of the more predictable, since it was already clear by the time that they announced the tiers that things had gone badly wrong there even before the national restrictions ended.

Now they are left shitting bricks because things are very bad. Despite their attempts to frame things as being a story of cases exploding in secondary schools, the rise in infections is clearly much broader than that because the hospital admissions data has been on a hideous trajectory for much of December. I just posted a graph about it on the main UK thread            #26,740


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)

Cases were going up in London when they lifted lockdown 2
night is following day


----------



## teuchter (Dec 14, 2020)

elbows said:


> In a pandemic full of predictable failures, setting inappropriate tiers for the South was one of the more predictable, since it was already clear by the time that they announced the tiers that things had gone badly wrong there even before the national restrictions ended.
> 
> Now they are left shitting bricks because things are very bad. Despite their attempts to frame things as being a story of cases exploding in secondary schools, the rise in infections is clearly much broader than that because the hospital admissions data has been on a hideous trajectory for much of December. I just posted a graph about it on the main UK thread            #26,740


Is that info broken down per London area?

The map still shows quite a large difference between outer and inner London... and NE vs SW. By a factor of 4 or 5 in many cases.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 14, 2020)

That big patch of purple by loughton is Epping Forest.

The deer have Covid because there's bugger all residents, mind you the pub at high beech is almost certainly an infection hotspot either because it's open or where the moped and Ka drivers go to do wheelies.


----------



## Sue (Dec 14, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Is that info broken down per London area?
> 
> The map still shows quite a large difference between outer and inner London... and NE vs SW. By a factor of 4 or 5 in many cases.
> 
> View attachment 243474


What do you mean by outer and inner though? Some of those bad bits of E London are zone 2 which I'd say is inner...?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

Sue said:


> What do you mean by outer and inner though? Some of those bad bits of E London are zone 2 which I'd say is inner...?


he doesn't know what he's on about and he seems unable to include the legend indicating what the colours indicate


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Is that info broken down per London area?



I can see admissions and other hospital data down to the hospital trust level, but not beyond that. But I only get that data once a week, on a Thursday, and for example the latest data I have goes up to December 6th, so its missing the latest rises.

So I should wait till this Thursdays data really, and I'm not a Londoner so people will have to guide me as to which trusts are of interest. But here are some examples from the last set of data. 

Daily Covid-19 hospital admissions/diagnoses, with the blue line an attempt to show smoothed trend via rolling averages.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

elbows said:


> I can see admissions and other hospital data down to the hospital trust level, but not beyond that. But I only get that data once a week, on a Thursday, and for example the latest data I have goes up to December 6th, so its missing the latest rises.
> 
> So I should wait till this Thursdays data really, and I'm not a Londoner so people will have to guide me as to which trusts are of interest. But here are some examples from the last set of data.
> 
> View attachment 243475View attachment 243476View attachment 243477View attachment 243478View attachment 243479


you might want to adjust the y axis on the barts chart: if you find you've 7.5 or 22.5 people something has gone horribly wrong somewhere


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2020)

I'm too busy lobbying the government to have pedantry banned in all tiers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

elbows said:


> I'm too busy lobbying the government to have pedantry banned in all tiers.


what would be more useful to accompany your charts is some information about occupancy within those hospitals, how long covid patients are staying in them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

London likely to enter tier 3 Covid restrictions to curb surge in cases
					

Pubs, restaurants and bars may close week before Christmas to stem rising number of cases in capital




					www.theguardian.com
				




streeting's obviously never heard to auld saying 'lies. damned lies, and statistics'


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what would be more useful to accompany your charts is some information about occupancy within those hospitals, how long covid patients are staying in them.



My interest is mostly in admissions/diagnoses because these are a fair indicator of levels of infection within vulnerable populations, I tend to use these instead of focusing so much on number of positive cases.

I can provide number of Covid-19 patients in hospital beds. There is also another hospital data source that I am not very familiar with yet, if some of its data is useful I'm sure I will get round to presenting it at some point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

elbows said:


> My interest is mostly in admissions/diagnoses because these are a fair indicator of levels of infection within vulnerable populations, I tend to use these instead of focusing so much on number of positive cases.
> 
> I can provide number of Covid-19 patients in hospital beds. There is also another hospital data source that I am not very familiar with yet, if some of its data is useful I'm sure I will get round to presenting it at some point.
> 
> ...


thank you


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2020)

Some caveats with this sort of data:

It will include people who were in hospital for other reasons and then caught Covid-19 in hospital and then got picked up by hospital testing.

If trusts manage the load by redirecting some patients to other trusts I wont know about it, so I would advise not taking these stats as a literal picture of which areas of population are worst affected.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 14, 2020)

Sue said:


> What do you mean by outer and inner though? Some of those bad bits of E London are zone 2 which I'd say is inner...?


I simply mean as a general trend: more central parts of London seem to tend to have lower rates than the less central parts. Obviously there's not going to be a hard boundary between better and worse.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 21, 2020)

.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 21, 2020)

Where's Lambeth and Southwark?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Where's Lambeth and Southwark?


Same place as usual as far as I know


----------



## teuchter (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 244551
> 
> .


But what do you think?


----------



## nagapie (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Same place as usual as far as I know


I meant are they not purple because not named. But ho hum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I meant are they not purple because not named. But ho hum.


Much of Barnet purple but not named. They should I think have indicated at least borough names


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I meant are they not purple because not named. But ho hum.



What place names come up on internet maps is a bit variable.  

It's not attempting to name boroughs (e.g. Catford, Dulwich, Brixton have never been boroughs) and the borough of Lambeth has always been bigger than the locality of Lambeth.

And WTF is 'Abbeville Village'?

the individual coloured lumps are "Middle Layer Super Output Areas" whatever the heck they are...


----------



## teuchter (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> But what do you think?


I think the maps speak for themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I think the maps speak for themselves.


What do they say to you?


----------



## IC3D (Dec 21, 2020)

Speaking from experience elbows there are high numbers of asymptomatic covid patients in amber wards atm. Picked up by swabs on admission for unrelated illness.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 21, 2020)

IC3D said:


> Speaking from experience elbows there are high numbers of asymptomatic covid patients in amber wards atm. Picked up by swabs on admission for unrelated illness.


Don't they send them home to isolate?


----------



## IC3D (Dec 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Don't they send them home to isolate?


Not if they turned up at A&E clinically unwell. They are moved to siderooms. Hospitals filling up rapidly now as community infections taking off again


----------



## teuchter (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What do they say to you?


"Ignore Pickman's Twaddle".


----------



## nagapie (Dec 21, 2020)

IC3D said:


> Not if they turned up at A&E clinically unwell. They are moved to siderooms. Hospitals filling up rapidly now as community infections taking off again


Ah, yes, misread that as concentrated on the word asymptomatic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> "Ignore Pickman's Twaddle".


as you may have noticed i don't piss about with usernames, so i don't know why you're buggering about with mine. and i wonder what the point is of you posting maps when you can't describe when asked their relevance or meaning.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 244551
> 
> .


My street is blue and purple , the purple bit is down the bottom,  I am in the blue bit .


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

marty21 said:


> My street is blue and purple , the purple bit is down the bottom,  I am in the blue bit .


i thought you'd be in the imperial purple


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 244942


Do you at least have a date for that map
Not to mention the legend


----------



## BigMoaner (Dec 23, 2020)

at least 67,678 pages later....


----------



## colacubes (Dec 23, 2020)

Kings has cancelled all elective surgery as of today due to COVID admissions.


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 23, 2020)

Seven–day rolling rate of new cases by specimen date ending on *18 Dec 2020* 



From here:

Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard


----------



## teuchter (Jan 8, 2021)

Probably safe to say that we are not currently in an "unlockening" phase.









						Covid-19: 'Major incident' declared by London Mayor Sadiq Khan
					

The mayor says in some parts of London 1 in 20 people has Covid-19, as he declares a "major incident".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## teuchter (Jan 8, 2021)




----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 8, 2021)

Hm, I can't find a map for this income data but I'd quite like to compare one to that map Household Income Estimates for Small Areas – London Datastore


----------



## zora (Jan 8, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Probably safe to say that we are not currently in an "unlockening" phase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that the same Sadiq Khan who didn't want London to go into Tier 3 as late as 10 Dec? 

Apparently, he has now also called for masks to be worn outside and "safer measures" for workplaces which I am in favour of - but why everything so late?😭


----------



## baldrick (Jan 8, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Hm, I can't find a map for this income data but I'd quite like to compare one to that map Household Income Estimates for Small Areas – London Datastore


Not wholly income, but income does form part of the IMD data set.  2019 data for london mapped here:









						CDRC Maps: Maps of UK open data.
					

Maps from the Consumer Data Research Centre - see us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/cdrcuk



					maps.cdrc.ac.uk


----------



## andysays (Jan 8, 2021)

zora said:


> Is that the same Sadiq Khan who didn't want London to go into Tier 3 as late as 10 Dec?
> 
> Apparently, he has now also called for masks to be worn outside and "safer measures" for workplaces which I am in favour of - but why everything so late?😭



Do you have a link to anything he's said about "safer measures for workplaces"?

It doesn't appear to be mentioned here for instance


> Mr Khan is warning that London is "at crisis point". "If we do not take immediate action now, our NHS could be overwhelmed and more people will die," he said. "Londoners continue to make huge sacrifices and I am today imploring them to please stay at home unless it is absolutely necessary for you to leave. Stay at home to protect yourself, your family, friends and other Londoners and to protect our NHS."





> He said he had written to Prime Minister Boris Johnson asking for more financial support for Londoners who need to self-isolate and are unable to work, and for daily vaccination data. Mr Khan also called for the closure of places of worship and for face masks to be worn routinely outside the home, including in crowded places and supermarket queues, in a bid to curb case numbers.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 8, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Not wholly income, but income does form part of the IMD data set.  2019 data for london mapped here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, as I suspected the north and south west corridors of lower infection rates pretty directly map onto least deprived areas.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jan 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> as you may have noticed *i don't piss about with usernames*, so i don't know why you're buggering about with mine. and i wonder what the point is of you posting maps when you can't describe when asked their relevance or meaning.


Hanging offence is it not?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Hanging offence is it not?


not pissing about with usernames isn't an offence of any sort


----------



## teuchter (Jan 8, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Hanging offence is it not?


Luckily PCSO Pickman's is not authorised to hand out death penalties.


----------



## Sue (Jan 8, 2021)

Out earlier and Liverpool St/Shoreditch/City were all extremely quiet, as was my bus. Quite a bit busier on the way back but much quieter than usual.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jan 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> not pissing about with usernames isn't an offence of any sort


Pedantry alive and well I see...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Pedantry alive and well I see...


answering the question you have asked can hardly be considered pedantry


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Luckily PCSO Pickman's is not authorised to hand out death penalties.


you hand them out there, death by dullness.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 8, 2021)

Sue said:


> Out earlier and Liverpool St/Shoreditch/City were all extremely quiet, as was my bus. Quite a bit busier on the way back but much quieter than usual.


Is that "usual usual" or "past 10 months usual"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Is that "usual usual" or "past 10 months usual"?


cyril_smear now that's your actual pedantry


----------



## Sue (Jan 8, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Is that "usual usual" or "past 10 months usual"?


Usual usual. Haven't been round there at that time in the last 10 months.


----------



## zora (Jan 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> Do you have a link to anything he's said about "safer measures for workplaces"?
> 
> It doesn't appear to be mentioned here for instance



Oh well. Maybe not then. I just heard it in passing on the radio, but it may have been just my unshakable optimism that made me want to hear it.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jan 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> cyril_smear now that's your actual pedantry


Alive and well.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 8, 2021)

Sue said:


> Usual usual. Haven't been round there at that time in the last 10 months.


It's been very quiet round there throughout, I think. Even during the period between 1st and 2nd waves.


----------



## andysays (Jan 9, 2021)

zora said:


> Oh well. Maybe not then. I just heard it in passing on the radio, but it may have been just my unshakable optimism that made me want to hear it.


We certainly need someone in Khan's position to start talking about  "safer measures for workplaces" , so I too was hoping he might have said something along those lines


----------



## zora (Jan 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> We certainly need someone in Khan's position to start talking about  "safer measures for workplaces" , so I too was hoping he might have said something along those lines



Agreed. But sadly I think you were right, I have not come across it again. I may have misheard "something something places of worship" as workplaces.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 12, 2021)

Above is the map I took a screenshot of 4 days ago.
Below is the map as it appears today.


These maps are always a bit out of date - they seem to have around a week's lag on them, but at first sight, things do not appear to have got signifiantly worse. If anything, slightly less bad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 248464
> Above is the map I took a screenshot of 4 days ago.
> Below is the map as it appears today.
> View attachment 248463
> ...


Blow me sideways that's a stupid, stupid conclusion. Because that tells you fuck all about how bad it is in the worst affected areas, just that some areas have reached a certain threshold. It doesn't tell you how far beyond that threshold they are, or how near the next threshold they may be. Come back when you've developed an understanding of the maps you post and include the legend next time.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 12, 2021)

Thanks as ever to Pickman's model for stating the obvious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Thanks as ever to Pickman's model for stating the obvious.





teuchter said:


> View attachment 248464
> Above is the map I took a screenshot of 4 days ago.
> Below is the map as it appears today.
> View attachment 248463
> ...


You can't tell how things have gone from maps like those you fuckwit. So don't make out it's obvious because it sure as shit wasn't to you


----------



## teuchter (Jan 12, 2021)

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "at first sight". Or maybe you are perfectly familiar with it but feel like filling the thread up with your pointless bickering anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Maybe you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "at first sight". Or maybe you are perfectly familiar with it but feel like filling the thread up with your pointless bickering anyway.


you've not offered any deeper insights so i don't think you have any. but do go on, i look forward to seeing what your second sight has shown you.

and it is by no means 'pointless bickering' to take substantive issue with the claim you're making about what you think those maps tell us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Maybe you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "at first sight". Or maybe you are perfectly familiar with it but feel like filling the thread up with your pointless bickering anyway.


while we're about it, one other issue which hinders deriving any information from those maps is that you haven't bothered saying what they are supposed to represent.


----------



## Winot (Jan 12, 2021)

Tim Spector of Imperial (runs the Zoe app) was saying at the end of last week that he thought London cases had peaked.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 12, 2021)

tube use currently three times what it was in march lockdown supposedly, i read in a paper earlier (forget which one)


----------



## ska invita (Jan 12, 2021)

Winot said:


> Tim Spector of Imperial (runs the Zoe app) was saying at the end of last week that he thought London cases had peaked.


Id expect so , with schools closed lockdown etc. question is how much will they come down by and when


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Id expect so , with schools closed lockdown etc. question is how much will they come down by and when


schools partly closed, children of keyworkers and in certain years still attending


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 12, 2021)

Pickman is urban's autocorrect inbuilt system?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 12, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> Pickman is urban's autocorrect inbuilt system?





teuchter said:


> PCSO Pickman


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 12, 2021)

He didn't like your maps, did he


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> He didn't like your maps, did he


Thundercunt teuchter is so ashamed of his maps he refuses to say what they depict


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2021)

Not all areas improving but the dark purple seems to be starting to break up a bit in NE London.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 249032
> 
> Not all areas improving but the dark purple seems to be starting to break up a bit in NE London.


So you don't say what the maps are supposed to show, what the colours mean, you don't put another image beside it for comparison although you say there's been change. It is utterly devoid of meaning. Why do you insist on saying you're a man who can only post maps shorn of the information that gives them value? I know you're not the sharpest tool in the box but even so this is remarkably stupid


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 15, 2021)

Just scroll past.

I quite like the maps.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> Just scroll past.
> 
> I quite like the maps.


Not keen on content free posts


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not keen on content free posts


I know. You've mentioned.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2021)

If anyone has any genuine issues in understanding the maps, all of the necessary information about which is present earlier in the thread, feel free to PM me for info. This service is open to everyone except Pickman's Model, who is free to take his complaints to the feedback forum to be ignored there, instead of cluttering this thread with his off-topic whining.


----------



## ash (Jan 15, 2021)

I hope this keeps up


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

teuchter said:


> If anyone has any genuine issues in understanding the maps, all of the necessary information about which is present earlier in the thread, feel free to PM me for info. This service is open to everyone except Pickman's Model, who is free to take his complaints to the feedback forum to be ignored there, instead of cluttering this thread with his off-topic whining.


if you are unhappy with my posts you can alert a member of the moderating team


----------



## andysays (Jan 15, 2021)

teuchter said:


> If anyone has any genuine issues in understanding the maps, all of the necessary information about which is present earlier in the thread, feel free to PM me for info. This service is open to everyone except Pickman's Model, who is free to take his complaints to the feedback forum to be ignored there, instead of cluttering this thread with his off-topic whining.


It would certainly be useful to provide a link to the source of these maps you're posting, rather than suggesting people PM you, and it really doesn't seem that much to ask.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jan 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> It would certainly be useful to provide a link to the source of these maps you're posting, rather than suggesting people PM you, and it really doesn't seem that much to ask.



Government dashboard.









						Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard
					

GOV.UK Coronavirus dashboard




					coronavirus.data.gov.uk


----------



## andysays (Jan 15, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Government dashboard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know where teuchter is getting them from, what I'm saying is that he should include a link to the site in his post.

I thought this was one of the unwritten rules of Urban, TBH,  otherwise it could just be a picture he's created to pass the time while locked in the bathroom. 

(but thanks for the link)


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2021)

ash said:


> View attachment 249051
> I hope this keeps up



The reported cases numbers look reasonably promising too








						UK Coronavirus Tracker - Local
					

Current and historical data of the Coronavirus outbreak in the UK. Includes breakdowns by region, maps, charts, and more!




					www.travellingtabby.com


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 15, 2021)

Hooray! I live in plague central



UK Coronavirus Tracker - Local


----------



## Numbers (Jan 15, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Hooray! I live in plague central
> 
> View attachment 249062
> 
> UK Coronavirus Tracker - Local


In Bronze place here in Newham.


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 15, 2021)

Numbers said:


> In Bronze place here in Newham.


I look forward to seeing you on the podium


----------



## Numbers (Jan 15, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> I look forward to seeing you on the podium


When we do we can’t even share egg mayo sarnies


----------



## Sue (Jan 18, 2021)

When they introduced the 800+ dark purple in Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard before Christmas, I couldn't believe the numbers could be that bad and thought they certainly wouldn't reach that level in many places. Then the numbers in my local area got to that level and kept going and have been pretty much over 1000 since (going up to nearly 1300 at one point). Today they're down to 'just' 840 and that feels like a massive improvement.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jan 18, 2021)

Sue said:


> When they introduced the 800+ dark purple in Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard before Christmas, I couldn't believe the numbers could be that bad and thought they certainly wouldn't reach that level in many places. Then the numbers in my local area got to that level and kept going and have been pretty much over 1000 since (going up to nearly 1300 at one point). Today they're down to 'just' 840 and that feels like a massive improvement.



Yeah it took off so fast, but luckily it's moving in the right direction now.

In Worthing we came out of the lockdown at the start of Dec. on 25 cases, it hit a high of 820, now we're on 'only' 630.

Our local hospital trust has more than 3 times the number of covid cases they had at the peak last April, but I don't know the percentage of local cases against those taken in from Kent.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 18, 2021)

Sue said:


> Today they're down to 'just' 840 and that feels like a massive improvement.



as one of my teachers used to say, going from worse to bad is at least an improvement...


----------



## teuchter (Jan 18, 2021)

Not only is the dark purple gradually receding but the blue is steadily reclaiming ground.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2021)

First spot of 'green' inside the M25 has appeared today ... posh Barnes in west london


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 27, 2021)

teuchter said:


> First spot of 'green' inside the M25 has appeared today ... posh Barnes in west london
> 
> View attachment 251664



Someone forgot to colour in Kew


----------



## Cloo (Jan 27, 2021)

I don't think I'm going back into my office this year, tho.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 27, 2021)

teuchter said:


> First spot of 'green' inside the M25 has appeared today ... posh Barnes in west london


You can't bloody get there any more now that Hammersmith Bridge is closed so I don't find that very surprising.

(It _is_ the poshest residential part of London I've been in though.)


----------



## Cloo (Feb 4, 2021)

My brother in law being quoted again, re: Newham scheme to house temporarily those who can't self isolate at home









						People In Newham Who Can't Afford To Self-Isolate Will Be Put Up In Hotels
					

The mayor of the hard-hit east London borough has also demanded more financial support for isolating workers.




					www.huffp.st


----------



## teuchter (Feb 5, 2021)

And today I spy the first "light green" patch appearing (Regents Park)


----------



## what (Feb 5, 2021)

And a white one Belsize Park


----------



## marty21 (Feb 5, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You can't bloody get there any more now that Hammersmith Bridge is closed so I don't find that very surprising.
> 
> (It _is_ the poshest residential part of London I've been in though.)


I've been there a few times as a mate lives there , it is well posh.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 6, 2021)

teuchter said:


> And today I spy the first "light green" patch appearing (Regents Park)
> 
> View attachment 252944


very dramatic comparing it to previous maps. god i hope it's well and truly on the back foot but seems we've heard it all before.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 16, 2021)




----------



## teuchter (Feb 20, 2021)

My observation from a walk around South London today is that quite a lot of people are now not bothering with restrictions on outdoors socisl gatherings. A few folk sat around having drinks together. Loads of group sports things, some of them kind of semi distanced and some not. This hasn't started with today's nice weather... Already noticed a fair bit of this the past few weekends but it was particularly obvious today. Not surprising perhaps.


----------



## Winot (Feb 20, 2021)

teuchter said:


> My observation from a walk around South London today is that quite a lot of people are now not bothering with restrictions on outdoors socisl gatherings. A few folk sat around having drinks together. Loads of group sports things, some of them kind of semi distanced and some not. This hasn't started with today's nice weather... Already noticed a fair bit of this the past few weekends but it was particularly obvious today. Not surprising perhaps.



Probably relatively low risk, no?

We cycled to St. James’s Park this afternoon and then went for a walk. Huge numbers of cyclists up and down the Mall (closed to motor vehicle) including families with very young children on bikes (I assume parents had driven there).


----------



## teuchter (Feb 21, 2021)

Winot said:


> Probably relatively low risk, no?


I think it's probably relatively low risk yes.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 21, 2021)

I walked over Hackney Marshes to the Olympic site on Saturday afternoon,  loads of people out . The Olympic site was the busiest I've seen it over the pandemic,  and I've been maybe twice a month over the last year.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 21, 2021)

The park near me was certainly very busy yesterday - it gets used by a lot of families with young children as has some large playground areas, and they were rammed, with the parents all chatting to each other, plus people generally obviously mixing casually, though no picnics or anything.

Probably more that there was a brief bit of not entirely shit weather in what's been a miserable few weeks, than anything else.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Feb 21, 2021)

teuchter said:


> My observation from a walk around South London today is that quite a lot of people are now not bothering with restrictions on outdoors socisl gatherings. A few folk sat around having drinks together. Loads of group sports things, some of them kind of semi distanced and some not. This hasn't started with today's nice weather... Already noticed a fair bit of this the past few weekends but it was particularly obvious today. Not surprising perhaps.


I've been cycling this w/e and have noticed groups of 3+ cyclists out. There was even a solo cyclist have a good ole moan at his fellow cyclists for congregating in groups near a cafe. I guess it's the weather, everyone's been stuck in for a while. The 2 person rule is easy to understand i'd say.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 21, 2021)

Loads of people out on bikes today. And some quite long traffic jams of motorists doing their Sunday essential journeys.

Sunny days seem to bring out the revving sports car guys too, especially around central London.


----------



## nyxx (Feb 21, 2021)

I dunno if it’s that different this weekend really, the smaller local parks were rammed whenever I went to them of a weekend right the way through January. Similar sounding thing of groups of parents and kids all congregated around particular areas. Which I evaded. It was generally really difficult to maintain 2 metres distance because the paths were so busy but the ground was a waterlogged swamp.


----------



## clicker (Feb 21, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Loads of people out on bikes today. And some quite long traffic jams of motorists doing their Sunday essential journeys.
> 
> Sunny days seem to bring out the revving sports car guys too, especially around central London.


Definitely feels/looks/sounds busier this weekend. The recent cold weather helped re compliance I reckon.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 21, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The park near me was certainly very busy yesterday - it gets used by a lot of families with young children as has some large playground areas, and they were rammed, with the parents all chatting to each other, plus people generally obviously mixing casually, though no picnics or anything.
> 
> Probably more that there was a brief bit of not entirely shit weather in what's been a miserable few weeks, than anything else.


FWIW I don't really care how many people go to parks and if different bubbles have a coffee and a chat while standing in the mud trying to stop their kids from falling off things (and nobody seems to be enforcing anything anyway - there are council folk wandering around but they don't seem to bother with the parks). I wouldn't want the above to be interpreted as such.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 24, 2021)

Today


----------



## T & P (Feb 24, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Today
> 
> View attachment 255962View attachment 255963View attachment 255964View attachment 255965View attachment 255966



The contrast between the ‘very centre’ of London and the rest of London since the pandemic began, even neighbouring areas still in Zone 1, is truly staggering.

Travel just a little over a mile westwards to South Kensington and the difference in pedestrian and traffic presence, and percentage of shops open, is breathtaking.

I guess it’s a combination of very low residential occupancy, and fewer essential shops in the likes of Mayfair & the West End that have transformed it into a ghost town pretty much throughout since March 2020.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 24, 2021)

Yeah, not many people live there, and a large proportion of the people who normally work there are either office jobs and WFH, or in retail and retail is closed.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 24, 2021)

Loads of construction work going on all over the shop though.


----------



## RubyToogood (Feb 24, 2021)

The map is looking very cheering. Lots of white bits! (So few cases that the actual numbers are suppressed for anonymity)


----------



## marty21 (Feb 25, 2021)

T & P said:


> The contrast between the ‘very centre’ of London and the rest of London since the pandemic began, even neighbouring areas still in Zone 1, is truly staggering.
> 
> Travel just a little over a mile westwards to South Kensington and the difference in pedestrian and traffic presence, and percentage of shops open, is breathtaking.
> 
> I guess it’s a combination of very low residential occupancy, and fewer essential shops in the likes of Mayfair & the West End that have transformed it into a ghost town pretty much throughout since March 2020.


Roads are busy around here (Hackney) partly due to the traffic calming measures that have redirected traffic onto main roads.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Roads are busy around here (Hackney) partly due to the traffic calming measures that have redirected traffic onto main roads.


Not as bad as Hemel where drivers on average spend a week of their lives each year simply driving round the famous roundabouts


----------



## marty21 (Feb 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not as bad as Hemel where drivers on average spend a week of their lives each year simply driving round the famous roundabouts


Great roundabouts!


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 25, 2021)

Covid: London streets to open for outdoor dining as restrictions ease
					

There will be a return to outdoor dining in parts of Soho, Marylebone and Covent Garden in April.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I feel like we've been here before...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 25, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I feel like we've been here before...



it's like when you listen to tories and think you've heard this bullshit before

otherwise known as deja moo...


----------



## teuchter (Feb 27, 2021)

Quite busy on the south bank today.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 28, 2021)

Can't quite tell whether or not that queue above is the _actual_ one to get into Borough Market? 

Remind me of the queues for Monmouth Coffee, on Market days back then  when getting into The Market Porter opposite was a piece of piss by comparison!


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2021)

I went for a walk on Walthamstow Marshes late afternoon today , it was heaving with folk.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 28, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I went for a walk on Walthamstow Marshes late afternoon today , it was heaving with folk.



Reasonably or badly distancing?

Well at least we have another Tory Incompetence thing to take the piss out of -- announcing the Unlockdwn timetable immediately in advance of a sunny, mild, spring-like weekend!


----------



## ash (Feb 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Quite busy on the south bank today.
> 
> View attachment 256478View attachment 256479View attachment 256480


That’s mental


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Reasonably or badly distancing?
> 
> Well at least we have another Tory Incompetence thing to take the piss out of -- announcing the Unlockdwn timetable immediately in advance of a sunny, mild, spring-like weekend!


Bit of both , lots of picnics going on.


----------



## Winot (Feb 28, 2021)

We’ve been cycling to central London then doing an urban walk from there (e.g. from the Time Out books). Have done a few in the City, Pimilico, St. James’s and (yesterday) Mayfair. Mostly there have been very few people on the routes of the walks, in contrast to the parks. We left our bikes in Hyde Park yesterday and it was very busy but Mayfair was deserted.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 28, 2021)

Winot said:


> We’ve been cycling to central London then doing an urban walk from there (e.g. from the Time Out books). Have done a few in the City, Pimilico, St. James’s and (yesterday) Mayfair. Mostly there have been very few people on the routes of the walks, in contrast to the parks. We left our bikes in Hyde Park yesterday and it was very busy but Mayfair was deserted.


Have been doing a fair bit of the same...and observing the same.

By the way TfL when are you going to get your act together and install some cycle hire docking stations east of Brixton


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Have been doing a fair bit of the same...and observing the same.
> 
> By the way TfL when are you going to get your act together and install some cycle hire docking stations east of Brixton



I just want a cycle route all the way to Epping 

(I'd accept Loughton I guess)


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Have been doing a fair bit of the same...and observing the same.
> 
> By the way TfL when are you going to get your act together and install some cycle hire docking stations east of Brixton


And south of elephant.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2021)

I don't cycle,  but my local boroughs,  Hackney & Waltham Forest (I'm in the border lands) are very keen on cycle lanes, WF more so.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 28, 2021)

I'm certainly going to be watching with much interest, what happens if and when we see a true unlockening this summer. Whether, when workers start returning to central London, there will be a notable increase in those cycling in.

Although London's cycle infrastructure is still somewhat rubbish, it's better than it was a year ago. We'll see what percentage of those improvements get ripped out again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm certainly going to be watching with much interest, what happens if and when we see a true unlockening this summer. Whether, when workers start returning to central London, there will be a notable increase in those cycling in.
> 
> Although London's cycle infrastructure is still somewhat rubbish, it's better than it was a year ago. We'll see what percentage of those improvements get ripped out again.


some of them aren't improvements


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I don't cycle,  but my local boroughs,  Hackney & Waltham Forest (I'm in the border lands) are very keen on cycle lanes, WF more so.


LBH love them to, see eg balls pond rd


----------



## teuchter (Feb 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> some of them aren't improvements


Literally by definition, all improvements are improvements. If they aren't improvements then they aren't improvements. Stop talking nonsense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Literally by definition, all improvements are improvements. If they aren't improvements then they aren't improvements. Stop talking nonsense.


improvement means deterioration - hutber's law.


----------



## andysays (Feb 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Literally by definition, all improvements are improvements. If they aren't improvements then they aren't improvements. Stop talking nonsense.



Calling something an improvement doesn't actually make it an improvement though.

Many things which are called improvements are or turn out not to be any real improvement on what was there before, and as a result are altered or even returned to their original form within a few years.

I wouldn't be surprised if much of London's recent cycling infrastructure falls into this category.


----------



## scifisam (Mar 1, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Roads are busy around here (Hackney) partly due to the traffic calming measures that have redirected traffic onto main roads.



The little road next next to mine has got ridiculously busy due to other roads being shut down. TBF you can mostly rely on waving at drivers to get a space to cross because they generally aren't driving fast, but it's daft that they sent more traffic to one road without thinking about pedestrian crossings, as if pedestrians stop existing beyond those protected roads.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 8, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2021)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 257892


i can see you've not been eating carrot


----------



## marty21 (Mar 8, 2021)

Did some tube/train/bus journeys today , still very quiet , travelled on the Barking- Gospel Oak line , Northern line , Liverpool St - Chingford rail service , and a 253 bus from Clapton to Stamford Hill, all pretty empty (I was travelling this morning and after lunch)


----------



## Mation (Mar 8, 2021)

Had to go to Finchley today (for a genuinely essential family health reason).

Fast food shops, cafes, butchers, bakers (no candlestick makers), a flower shop, and a park cafe with fully occupied benches (outside); all open as normal, with bit 'Open' signs.

I checked the news to see if I'd missed an announcement about restrictions being lifted, but no.

What's going on?


----------



## nagapie (Mar 8, 2021)

I was in Brixton on Friday afternoon and relieved to see the essential Christian bookshop still open.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 8, 2021)

Mation said:


> Had to go to Finchley today (for a genuinely essential family health reason).
> 
> Fast food shops, cafes, butchers, bakers (no candlestick makers), a flower shop, and a park cafe with fully occupied benches (outside); all open as normal, with bit 'Open' signs.
> 
> ...


That's kind of what's been going on right through this 'lockdown' isn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2021)

Mation said:


> Had to go to Finchley today (for a genuinely essential family health reason).
> 
> Fast food shops, cafes, butchers, bakers (no candlestick makers), a flower shop, and a park cafe with fully occupied benches (outside); all open as normal, with bit 'Open' signs.
> 
> ...


I think there's a candlestick makers in the little parade of shops by west finchley station


----------



## Mation (Mar 9, 2021)

teuchter said:


> That's kind of what's been going on right through this 'lockdown' isn't it?


Not in my bit of South London, no. It was really weird to see!


----------



## teuchter (Mar 9, 2021)

Mation said:


> Not in my bit of South London, no. It was really weird to see!


Which part is that?


----------



## Mation (Mar 9, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Which part is that?


A bit in which the takeaways and bakery aren't open, other than for delivery. Don't think we've got any butchers.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 9, 2021)

The bakery I go to most has been open throughout,  apart from about 10 days when some staff members had the covid. They have been serving from the door most of the time , it is a very popular bakery,  sometimes up to 30 people are queuing (I swerve it if the queue is more than 10)


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 9, 2021)

Yup, in my corner of London its been very busy outside throughout.  Most cafe's open and all take aways and food shops of different stripes.  It can get very crowded in the parks and down by the river.


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 9, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm certainly going to be watching with much interest, what happens if and when we see a true unlockening this summer. Whether, when workers start returning to central London, there will be a notable increase in those cycling in.
> 
> Although London's cycle infrastructure is still somewhat rubbish, it's better than it was a year ago. We'll see what percentage of those improvements get ripped out again.



Some of that might also depend on what sort of travel ticket offers there are.  If people aren't commuting 5 days a week and buying annual or monthly travel cards we're going to start noticing how much it costs when we go in for one day, or think to hop on the bus for a couple of stops.  Maybe need some sort of carnet tickets?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 9, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Yup, in my corner of London its been very busy outside throughout.  Most cafe's open and all take aways and food shops of different stripes.  It can get very crowded in the parks and down by the river.



My area of Epping Forest has been absolutely chock-a-block throughout outside.

It's always weird seeing the 10+ cars parked up outside the playground because I'm fairly most of these people live nearby, it's not a huge area of settlement.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> My area of Epping Forest has been absolutely chock-a-block throughout outside.
> 
> It's always weird seeing the 10+ cars parked up outside the playground because I'm fairly most of these people live nearby, it's not a huge area of settlement.


I've been to Epping Forest a few times over the pandemic , on one occasion we couldn't park as they had reduced the car parks in the forest & the remaining ones were packed !


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 9, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Yup, in my corner of London its been very busy outside throughout.  *Most cafes open* and all take aways and food shops of different stripes.  It can get very crowded in the parks and down by the river.



For takeaway purposes only, I take it? 

I can't bloody wait to be able to have a Saturday veggie breakfast!!! 

We await Mark Drakeford's Welsh Govt announcements on Friday 12th with keen interest .....


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 9, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I've been to Epping Forest a few times over the pandemic , on one occasion we couldn't park as they had reduced the car parks in the forest & the remaining ones were packed !



They shut them for most of the summer which was weird


----------



## marty21 (Mar 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> They shut them for most of the summer which was weird


Yes!


----------



## teuchter (Mar 9, 2021)

It's not weird, I wish everywhere like that would shut their carparks during lockdowns, to try and reduce the phenomenon of London's minority of car owners filling up the streets driving to places to go for a walk while everyone else has to make do with whatever walks they can do from their front doors.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 9, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's not weird, I wish everywhere like that would shut their carparks during lockdowns, to try and reduce the phenomenon of London's minority of car owners filling up the streets driving to places to go for a walk while everyone else has to make do with whatever walks they can do from their front doors.


I do both tbf


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 10, 2021)

Some of these car parks are a good half hours  walk from the main housing areas, or more, which means that everyone who can't get there just clusters at the main entries to the forest instead because they can't be arsed to walk that far in.

I'd love to see less people but shutting them wasn't the way to do it because I was dodging people left right and centre to get to those quiet bits, it's a little easier now if still busy.

I do miss my quiet forest though.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I do both tbf


It's not possible to both use a car, and also be someone who doesn't have the option.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 10, 2021)

It certainly seems to me that there are a lot of visitors from neighbouring boroughs coming down to where I live for the greenery.  It is very frustrating because it just makes it so busy and difficult to distance.  That being said I do understand that if you live an area which is very urban just walking the streets each day must be very boring and not particularly good for the soul. 

Its just a period of time we have to get through.  I say that now though when things are calming down a bit.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's not possible to both use a car, and also be someone who doesn't have the option.


I mean , I drive occasionally to Epping Forest to go for a walk , and go for a walk from my front door to local green areas.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I mean , I drive occasionally to Epping Forest to go for a walk , and go for a walk from my front door to local green areas.


I've even heard you sometimes walk to your car


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I mean , I drive occasionally to Epping Forest to go for a walk , and go for a walk from my front door to local green areas.


My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.

I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.
> 
> I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.


I think this is a bit of a straw man, TBH. 

I don't think there are many people actually trapped in their homes because of cars driving down their local streets, though some may certainly feel it would be more pleasant and even safer without those cars there.

But I do know people who are very wary about going out to local parks etc for daily exercise because at many times of day those areas are crowded to the extent that they feel unsafe ATM. 

If some of those regularly exercising in my local park are able to drive (or cycle, etc) somewhere with more space and fewer people every now and again, that would leave more space in the park for those who can't.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 10, 2021)

I've been actively trying to keep a lid on any resentment I might feel, towards people with freedom to drive (or cycle) somewhere for a change of scenery, because I know it's a bit unfounded - but it is there, IYSWIM.

Anyway, a week or so back, I cracked & took a quiet midweek train out to Hampton Wick for a walk round Bushey Park & along the Thames.

Feel mildly guilty as - although I actually feel public transport is very safe - I also know it's safest when its empty, so we shouldn't be clogging it up with unnecessary journeys & making it even a tiny bit less safe for people who have no option except to use it to get to work.

But I also remember from last summer's unlockening, that there never actually was an announcement that public transport was now acceptable for non-essential journeys... just eventually a sort of 'oi you, you lazy cunts, why aren't you back in your offices yet' noise from the powers that be.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think this is a bit of a straw man, TBH.
> 
> I don't think there are many people actually trapped in their homes because of cars driving down their local streets, though some may certainly feel it would be more pleasant and even safer without those cars there.
> 
> ...



Right, but those places with more space and fewer people might only be quieter as a result of putting restrictions on how people can get there - ie. not having car parks open.

It is similar to the public transport situation that Ms Ordinary describes. With trains very empty there is probably very little risk or problem with one individual taking the train to somewhere nice for a change of scenery. But that falls apart if everyone decides to do it. So we have messaging that strongly discourages use of public transport for leisure purposes. It makes sense to do that, and it also makes sense to do the same for car journeys. Because the experience of making an elicit car journey is different to a public transport one (you don't have walk past staff and notices telling you not to do what you're doing) the messaging has to happen in different ways. And closing car parks at leisure destinations seems to be a perfectly sensible way to do this. You'll not stop everyone from using their cars when they're not really supposed to be - but you will hopefully avoid hundreds of people descending by car on places like Epping Forest.

Like I said above I don't want to make it into criticism of individual behaviour; my original point was simply that it's not weird to decide to close car parks at Epping Forest. To me there's good reason to do so.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.
> 
> I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.


But at the same time I can't walk far at all so really am restricted to the very local area. Would love a change of scenery   

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely btw.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 10, 2021)

You're the problem marty21


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> My point is that there's loads of people who don't have the option of sometimes driving somewhere different for a change. And those people find their local streets busy with cars driving around the place, cars driven by the minority of Londoners who have that option.
> 
> I don't want to get into criticising you personally. Maybe some people would disapprove of me doing fifteen mile walks that take me into other boroughs because they don't think the rules allow that. But I'm saying that I think there's a good argument for closing carparks to discourage people from driving around for leisure purposes. In the first lockdown the quietness of the streets compensated greatly for the restrictions on what what activity was allowed. You can perhaps see how having people trapped in their houses and immediate area whilst the streets outside are full of traffic much of which probably shouldn't really be there, might generate resentment.


Closing some of the car parks in Epping Forest would impact more on the locals than on me (I just turned around and drove the 10 miles back to Hackney. )
I  get your point about car ownership, you've always made your position very clear on that.  But an Epping Forest local who may need to drive would be unfairly impacted by the reduction in car parking spaces.  They may be disabled and use the Forest for short walks as it is a nice place to go for a walk.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

I'd have no problem with some parking spaces being provided for blue badge holders only.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'd have no problem with some parking spaces being provided for blue badge holders only.


I doubt that Epping Forest car parks are monitored by parking officials very closely,  so you'd just get anyone using those spaces.  If all the car parks had been open , there should be enough parking capacity for all. I think I went there when restrictions were being lifted following the 1st lockdown and loads of people had the same idea.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 10, 2021)

This is just part of wider problem that's going on at the moment though.  Basically our beauty spots can't cope with so many people wanting use them all of a sudden.









						New Forest visitor 'frenzy' fear as lockdown eases
					

Wild camping, litter, BBQs and people feeding animals are causing problems at the national park.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I'm not really sure what the answer is but its likely some sort of control is going to have to be implemented, sadly.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I'm not really sure what the answer is


Make it clear to people they shouldn't be driving anywhere (or state a definitive distance limit) for leisure purposes, just as it is made clear to people that they shouldn't be using public transport to travel anywhere for leisure purposes.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Right, but those places with more space and fewer people might only be quieter as a result of putting restrictions on how people can get there - ie. not having car parks open.
> 
> It is similar to the public transport situation that Ms Ordinary describes. With trains very empty there is probably very little risk or problem with one individual taking the train to somewhere nice for a change of scenery. But that falls apart if everyone decides to do it. So we have messaging that strongly discourages use of public transport for leisure purposes. It makes sense to do that, and it also makes sense to do the same for car journeys. Because the experience of making an elicit car journey is different to a public transport one (you don't have walk past staff and notices telling you not to do what you're doing) the messaging has to happen in different ways. And closing car parks at leisure destinations seems to be a perfectly sensible way to do this. You'll not stop everyone from using their cars when they're not really supposed to be - but you will hopefully avoid hundreds of people descending by car on places like Epping Forest.
> 
> Like I said above I don't want to make it into criticism of individual behaviour; my original point was simply that it's not weird to decide to close car parks at Epping Forest. To me there's good reason to do so.


100s of people descending on Epping Forest won't create the same overcrowding as 100s of people "descending" on my local park (as happens at weekends when the weather is good) because Epping Forest is about 100 times bigger than my local park* and there is far more space for visitors to spread out and avoid overcrowding.

And closing car parks doesn't avoid the issue of people driving somewhere away from their immediate locality, it simply causes additional problems when they find their intended car park closed and look for am alternative.

I realise that you are ideologically committed to a general reduction in car use, and I sort of share that position, all be it without the dogmatism you regularly demonstrate, but in the current situation this is actually potentially damaging. People who have the ability to drive or cycle to somewhere like Epping Forest should actually be encouraged to do so, for the benefit of those who don't have that ability.

* figures for illustrative purposes only. I haven't measured the actual size of either Epping Forest or my local park.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Make it clear to people they shouldn't be driving anywhere (or state a definitive distance limit) for leisure purposes, just as it is made clear to people that they shouldn't be using public transport to travel anywhere for leisure purposes.


So if you're lucky enough to live somewhere close to Epping Forest, you can enjoy it almost empty, but if you live ten miles away in already overcrowded Tottenham, you can only use your local park, along with 1000s of other local residents. 

Sounds fair enough...


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> the actual size of either Epping Forest or my local park.


2400 hectare v 5 hectare


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

littleseb said:


> 2400 hectare v 5 hactare


So Epping Forest is roughly 500 times bigger, that sounds about right.

But woe betide anyone from Tottenham or Hackney who has the cheek to get in their car and drive there for a walk...


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> So if you're lucky enough to live somewhere close to Epping Forest, you can enjoy it almost empty, but if you live ten miles away in already overcrowded Tottenham, you can only use your local park, along with 1000s of other local residents.
> 
> Sounds fair enough...



This is my quandary.  Its parks and the riverside for me but we've had large numbers coming from neighbouring boroughs and its made it pretty tricky to go out in the daytime.  You'd certainly need wellies or boots because the paths were seriously overcrowded, it made it more stressful than a walk should be. 

On the other hand it is nice where we are and not very green in neighbouring boroughs.  Its a tricky balance but the best I could do was tolerate it whilst out and then moan about it when we got home.

Its going to be bad again when things open up and the weather starts to get nicer.  We already had some clowns try and attempt a mass bring your own musical instrument party on one of the local greens last Saturday.  OB were all over that but still...


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> This is my quandary.  Its parks and the riverside for me but we've had large numbers coming from neighbouring boroughs and its made it pretty tricky to go out in the daytime.  You'd certainly need wellies or boots because the paths were seriously overcrowded, it made it more stressful than a walk should be.
> 
> On the other hand it is nice where we are and not very green in neighbouring boroughs.  Its a tricky balance but the best I could do was tolerate it whilst out and then moan about it when we got home.
> 
> Its going to be bad again when things open up and the weather starts to get nicer.  We already had some clowns try and attempt a mass bring your own musical instrument party on one of the local greens last Saturday.  OB were all over that but still...


I agree, it is a difficult balance to strike, and I think when people arrive in large groups can be particularly problematic.

It's mostly teuchter's dogmatic absolutism which pisses me off.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 10, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> You're the problem marty21



Bring back Marty1!


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> 100s of people descending on Epping Forest won't create the same overcrowding as 100s of people "descending" on my local park (as happens at weekends when the weather is good) because Epping Forest is about 100 times bigger than my local park* and there is far more space for visitors to spread out and avoid overcrowding.
> 
> And closing car parks doesn't avoid the issue of people driving somewhere away from their immediate locality, it simply causes additional problems when they find their intended car park closed and look for am alternative.
> 
> ...


I may have been to your local park  I think you're local-ish to me (Clapton) . I can confirm the Epping Forest is a big space .


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Bring back Marty1!


I am 21 times worse


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> So Epping Forest is roughly 500 times bigger, that sounds about right.
> 
> But woe betide anyone from Tottenham or Hackney who has the cheek to get in their car and drive there for a walk...


Woe betide me tbf


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> So Epping Forest is roughly 500 times bigger, that sounds about right.
> 
> But woe betide anyone from Tottenham or Hackney who has the cheek to get in their car and drive there for a walk...


It's good that the already advantaged portion of Tottenham/Hackney residents who own cars have someone sticking up for their right to drive past everyone else's houses and go somewhere nicer.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I may have been to your local park  I think you're local-ish to me (Clapton) . I can confirm the Epping Forest is a big space .


My work takes me regularly to Springfield Park near you, but my local park (which littleseb has kindly looked up the size of) is on St Ann's Road in Tottenham. 

Both of them get hugely crowded ATM, particularly at weekends and when it's sunny.

I haven't been to Epping Forest for a few years, but mostly you could walk for 5 minutes after parking and basically be on your own.


----------



## Winot (Mar 10, 2021)

At what point does an area like Epping Forest become a rural area that people in the city have a right to access?









						Rural areas and plague tourists
					

There are many rural areas of the UK which have not really suffered high levels of Covid, compared to the national average. Of course, it's understandable that if you lived in one of those areas, you would want to keep it that way. And when there are surges of infection its quite right that...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's good that the already advantaged portion of Tottenham/Hackney residents who own cars have someone sticking up for their right to drive past everyone else's houses and go somewhere nicer.


You appear to be so stuck up your own dogma that you're missing my point, which is that the less advantaged residents benefit from the more advantaged ones getting in their cars and driving elsewhere, leaving local parks less crowded.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> My work takes me regularly to Springfield Park near you, but my local park (which littleseb has kindly looked up the size of) is on St Ann's Road in Tottenham.
> 
> Both of them get hugely crowded ATM, particularly at weekends and when it's sunny.
> 
> I haven't been to Epping Forest for a few years, but mostly you could walk for 5 minutes after parking and basically be on your own.


During the summer , places like Hackney Downs & Walthamstow Marshes were heaving,  many of the people there had come from other areas in London . I tried to limit my walking to early mornings or late evenings then.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

Winot said:


> At what point does an area like Epping Forest become a rural area that people in the city have a right to access?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was waiting for someone to bring this up  
I think it's at the point where we are no longer pretending to be in 'lockdown' and following a specific policy of limiting travel.
Because at that point, those without cars will also have the option of travelling to places, by public transport.


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Both of them get hugely crowded ATM, particularly at weekends and when it's sunny.


the one in Tot, sitting in between three schools, will now be at breaking point in the afternoon.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> During the summer , places like Hackney Downs & Walthamstow Marshes were heaving,  many of the people there had come from other areas in London . I tried to limit by walking to early mornings or late evenings then.


My wife has been working from home since lockdown began.

She used to make a point of walking as part of her journey to work, and now she tries to get out and walk in our local park every day, but because it's so crowded (by locals, not by people travelling to the area specifically to visit it), she has to try to time her walks at less busy times.

It's not quite so bad now, but during the winter when nights were longer, she basically had to choose between feeling unsafe because of crowding or feeling unsafe because of the dark.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> You appear to be so stuck up your own dogma that you're missing my point, which is that the less advantaged residents benefit from the more advantaged ones getting in their cars and driving elsewhere, leaving local parks less crowded.


I don't agree with that. I think this effect would be very minimal. A couple of percent of people living across two boroughs would be a barely noticeable number locally, but would be a large number when they converged on somewhere like Epping Forest.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I don't agree with that. I think this effect would be very minimal. A couple of percent of people living across two boroughs would be a barely noticeable number locally, but would be a large number when they converged on somewhere like Epping Forest.


Have you ever been to Epping Forest? 

Do you actually have any idea how big it is, how much room there is to spread out in?


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> My wife has been working from home since lockdown began.
> 
> She used to make a point of walking as part of her journey to work, and now she tries to get out and walk in our local park every day, but because it's so crowded (by locals, not by people travelling to the area specifically to visit it), she has to try to time her walks at less busy times.
> 
> It's not quite so bad now, but during the winter when nights were longer, she basically had to choose between feeling unsafe because of crowding or feeling unsafe because of the dark.


tbh it just highlights the need for more green spaces and playgrounds.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

Also - Epping Forest is very large, but people arriving at places by car rarely stray very far from the car park. Apparently there are about 1000 parking spaces across the forest. Multiply that by multiple car occupants plus the people who see that the forest is "open" but arrive to find all the car parks full and then start hunting around neighbouring streets or verges and so on.

Like I say, just deciding to send a message that people are really not encouraged to drive to places like Epping Forest during a lockdown seems a perfectly sensible move to me.

But maybe Epping Forest is run by dogmatic absolutists like me.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

littleseb said:


> tbh it just highlights the need for more green spaces and playgrounds.


Yup. We should convert all car parking space into green space and playgrounds.


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

my two local playgrounds get terribly busy. But what am I supposed to do? The boy needs to be out and watch others (older kids). A lawn or the canal doesn't do it for him, he needs climbing frames and swings.
I try to stick to less busy times, but this isn't always possible.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Have you ever been to Epping Forest?
> 
> Do you actually have any idea how big it is, how much room there is to spread out in?


Yes and yes.


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

It happens quite regularly that when I haven't seen other parents for a while and I ask them where they's been the answer is: Had to isolate, outbreak at nursery.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

littleseb said:


> tbh it just highlights the need for more green spaces and playgrounds.


It does, and perhaps it suggests that the local population has grown significantly in recent years. 

But we are where we are now, and more parks aren't an option in the short term.

People who lived in densely populated urban areas are already disadvantaged by lack of local green spaces, now we're being told by teuchter that we have to stay in our own areas and leave the much larger green spaces in less densely populated areas to the more privileged people lucky enough to live there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> But maybe Epping Forest is run by dogmatic absolutists like me.


fortunately it's not and is run by people who know their business.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> My wife has been working from home since lockdown began.
> 
> She used to make a point of walking as part of her journey to work, and now she tries to get out and walk in our local park every day, but because it's so crowded (by locals, not by people travelling to the area specifically to visit it), she has to try to time her walks at less busy times.
> 
> It's not quite so bad now, but during the winter when nights were longer, she basically had to choose between feeling unsafe because of crowding or feeling unsafe because of the dark.


I walk up to Markfield Park a lot (which is near you? ) that was proper heaving during hot days , even though the cafe there was shut for a lot of the summer. 

We had the added joy in the summer of people shitting in local parks as toilet facilities were closed.  There were even signs put up in my nearest park (North Millfields) which basically asked people to shit at home . I do not know if the majority of park shitters were drivers or pedestrians.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

littleseb said:


> my two local playgrounds get terribly busy. But what am I supposed to do? The boy needs to be out and watch others (older kids). A lawn or the canal doesn't do it for him, he needs climbing frames and swings.
> I try to stick to less busy times, but this isn't always possible.


I think you're local to me.  I've noticed that they have improved the play areas in Springfield Park.  The two main playgrounds were fenced off recently , which of course didn't stop local kids & parents bypassing the fencing & playing on the new play things .


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I walk up to Markfield Park a lot (which is near you? ) that was proper heaving during hot days , even though the cafe there was shut for a lot of the summer.
> 
> We had the added joy in the summer of people shitting in local parks as toilet facilities were closed.  There were even signs put up in my nearest park (North Millfields) which basically asked people to shit at home . I do not know if the majority of park shitters were drivers or pedestrians.


Yeah, I work alongside staff in Springfield Park who have many stories about the behaviour of (mostly entitled middle class) park users around toilet facilities and other things.

I got the impression that most of them were local enough that they could walk home to use their own toilet, but insisted that all the normal facilities should be kept open for their convenience.

ETA although most shitters were local, I'm not saying most locals were shitters


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> now we're being told by teuchter that we have to stay in our own areas


You seem to overestimate my role in determining central government policy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I work alongside staff in Springfield Park who have many stories about the behaviour of (mostly entitled middle class) park users around toilet facilities and other things.
> 
> I got the impression that most of them were local enough that they could walk home to use their own toilet, but insisted that all the normal facilities should be kept open for their convenience.


what a carry on at your convenience


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> You seem to overestimate my role in determining central government policy.


you are just the sort of person this nefandous government would consult


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what a carry on at your convenience


I'll set them up...


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I think you're local to me.


only for work


marty21 said:


> I've noticed that they have improved the play areas in Springfield Park.


they have


marty21 said:


> bypassing the fencing & playing on the new play things .


where I am tearing down the fencing round the exercise equipment has become a favourite local pastime.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I work alongside staff in Springfield Park who have many stories about the behaviour of (mostly entitled middle class) park users around toilet facilities and other things.
> 
> I got the impression that most of them were local enough that they could walk home to use their own toilet, but insisted that all the normal facilities should be kept open for their convenience.
> 
> ETA although most shutters were local, I'm not saying most locals were shitters


I'd like to point out here that I haven't had a shit in any of the parks & marshes in our area, I have always gone home to do it .


----------



## klang (Mar 10, 2021)

the bushes around the playground at my local park are like a victorian sewage system since they shut the loos. All well and good to expect the adults to rush home, but for kids it's often more urgent and less predictable.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 10, 2021)

Being outdoors even in busy parks is very low risk.  I'd not worry about a packed park.
People need to de-tune the '<insert outdoor space> IS PACKED!'  It's not going to cause much if any covid or any respiratory illness if they got there not using public transport.

Being Indoor with other people for a while is the main driver of infection.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 10, 2021)

Sunray said:


> Being outdoors even in busy parks is very low risk.  I'd not worry about a packed park.
> People need to de-tune the '<insert outdoor space> IS PACKED!'  It's not going to cause much if any covid or any respiratory illness if they got there not using public transport.
> 
> Being Indoor with other people for a while is the main driver of infection.



I think you're missing the point here.

Of all the measures we can take to stop the virus spreading, giving each other space is the most important.  After a year that should be drilled into everyone (I know it isn't but still) and we need to be thinking space all the time not just in or at certain venues.  Its a mindset.

When an outdoors place is so busy you are unable to have and give space then we should absolutely see that as a problem.  If not why have sports stadiums been empty for 12 months? 

Clearly the risk is greatly reduced by being outside but everyone already know that.  This is about creating an environment that is safe and people feel safe in and round my way it hasn't been that at all.  Not that much can be done about it because people need to get out.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 10, 2021)

This stuff is difficult isn't it and only going to get worse I think. It seems pretty clear that very soon we're going to have a period where a lot more is permitted and yet the virus will still be in circulation to some degree at least. Hopefully it settles down but in the short term at least it's going to be very hard for people whose idea of 'feeling safe' is the strictest.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 10, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> This stuff is difficult isn't it and only going to get worse I think. It seems pretty clear that very soon we're going to have a period where a lot more is permitted and yet the virus will still be in circulation to some degree at least. Hopefully it settles down but in the short term at least it's going to be very hard for people whose idea of 'feeling safe' is the strictest.



I guess its not just about feeling safe its about wanting the virus to go away.  I'm fortunate enough to not be scared about the virus due to my low risk status but what I am bothered about is the virus being allowed to circulate amongst us freely whilst so many of the population remain unvaccinated.  That can only mean more deaths and even longer draconian restrictions on being able to live life.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 10, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I think you're missing the point here.
> 
> Of all the measures we can take to stop the virus spreading, giving each other space is the most important.  After a year that should be drilled into everyone (I know it isn't but still) and we need to be thinking space all the time not just in or at certain venues.  Its a mindset.
> 
> ...



Unless it's so packed you're physically on top of each other, most people's personal space is about the 2m mark (unless you live in India where its a more troubling 6 inches).  Its something we do without thinking.

I've posted this before but if you've not read it, its an interesting read and why we should really be promoting outdoor spaces. As long as you don't use public transport, if its a nice day go sit outside somewhere, it would lift the mood for everyone.








						How the beach 'super-spreader' myth may have hampered UK Covid reaction
					

News that no outbreaks were linked to beach trips highlights important message about outdoor transmission, says expert




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 10, 2021)

teuchter said:
			
		

> But maybe Epping Forest is run by dogmatic absolutists like me.





Pickman's model said:


> fortunately it's not *and is run by people who know their business*.



The Corporation of London?  

They certainly know their _businesses_, nearer the Guildhall


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 11, 2021)

Sunray said:


> Unless it's so packed you're physically on top of each other, most people's personal space is about the 2m mark (unless you live in India where its a more troubling 6 inches).  Its something we do without thinking.



Its blatantly not.  You're welcome to come down to our riverside and try for yourself. How can you do 2m gaps on paths and pavements anyway?  How many people walking in groups walk in single file?

I agree with you about outdoors being safer but I don't think you have a handle at all on what is going on out there in the crowded parts of London's green spaces.  As I say though I still think you're missing the larger point.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 11, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Its blatantly not.  You're welcome to come down to our riverside and try for yourself. How can you do 2m gaps on paths and pavements anyway?  How many people walking in groups walk in single file?
> 
> I agree with you about outdoors being safer but I don't think you have a handle at all on what is going on out there in the crowded parts of London's green spaces.  As I say though I still think you're missing the larger point.



I think you've become overly sensitive to people getting close outdoors.  I'm not sure what your point is? People shouldn't be getting too close to one another in outdoor spaces?

I don't think it matters very much if they do, so it's ok, there are more pressing things to worry about.  All those people on the beaches last summer, I suspect they went and queued for stuff, and walked by each other on the beach.  Nothing happened apart from some moral outrage and litter.  This will also be true of London's green spaces.



What caused the second spike, eat out to help out, indoor drinking in pubs and it getting colder and more people hanging out indoors thinking it's all over.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 11, 2021)

littleseb said:


> the bushes around the playground at my local park are like a victorian sewage system since they shut the loos. All well and good to expect the adults to rush home, but for kids it's often more urgent and less predictable.


There are many adults, who for many reasons rushing home is not an option; pregnant women, the disabled, the elderly, people with prostate or other health issues.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 11, 2021)

Please use the toilets one household at a time


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Please use the toilets one household at a time   View attachment 258289


the smaller households will find that less unpleasant


----------



## nagapie (Mar 15, 2021)

Back to no seats on the bus. Poor bus drivers could probably do with some vaccinations.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 15, 2021)

I thought the drivers were all quite well protected behind screens? This won't be helped by children being back at school and
workers staarting to return to their places of work I guess.


----------



## Winot (Mar 29, 2021)

Encouraging stats from London:


----------



## Winot (Mar 29, 2021)

Incidentally, I’ve noticed an increase in people hanging out in open spaces in the centre of town at the weekend (e.g around Trafalgar Square and St. James’s Park). Shopping areas still very empty though, unsurprisingly.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 7, 2021)

I went to the South Bank this morning for the 1st time in maybe 15 months. Walked from Liverpool St ,over London Bridge , then through Borough Market and along the river to the Tate Modern , over the Millennium Bridge ,then back to Liverpool St via Bank/Moorgate. 

South Bank had a few people on it , but way down on previous walks there in normal times . The City of London is still very quiet.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 7, 2021)

The south bank has been consistently pretty busy on weekends and/or nice weather days since the beginning of the year. Often it has felt just as busy as 'normal' times.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 7, 2021)

teuchter said:


> The south bank has been consistently pretty busy on weekends and/or nice weather days since the beginning of the year. Often it has felt just as busy as 'normal' times.


It was cold today so maybe that's the reason.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Apr 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I'd like to point out here that I haven't had a shit in any of the parks & marshes in our area, I have always gone home to do it .


 You are very lucky to have your own marshes to shit in Marty!


----------



## marty21 (Apr 7, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> You are very lucky to have your own marshes to shit in Marty!


I feel blessed Harry


----------



## Johnny Doe (Apr 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I feel blessed Harry



I bet your marsh is free of nettles to so you can pull down you pants and suffocate ants in comfort. Flash git!


----------



## Sue (Apr 7, 2021)

Summer in a pandemic: How Londoners were drawn to a river
					

When Sophia Evans visited the River Lea near Hackney Marshes she was astonished by the scenes of blissful enjoyment she saw there – a world away from the horrors of the news




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## marty21 (Apr 7, 2021)

Sue said:


> Summer in a pandemic: How Londoners were drawn to a river
> 
> 
> When Sophia Evans visited the River Lea near Hackney Marshes she was astonished by the scenes of blissful enjoyment she saw there – a world away from the horrors of the news
> ...


Saw that ! The swimming bit was pretty rammed in the summer,  wouldn't get in there myself , can't be the cleanest of water with all the stuff up-river


----------



## Sue (Apr 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Saw that ! The swimming bit was pretty rammed in the summer,  wouldn't get in there myself , can't be the cleanest of water with all the stuff up-river


My friend's Colombian housemate used to hang out there a lot but think he was into less wholesome pursuits (dubious drugs and random sex mainly).


----------



## pbsmooth (Apr 7, 2021)

didn't realise there was a big 'latin' population in hackney - or big enough to be majority of that feature


----------



## marty21 (Apr 7, 2021)

crojoe said:


> didn't realise there was a big 'latin' population in hackney - or big enough to be majority of that feature


There's a Brazilian cafe/Butchers in Upper Clapton, another one in Stamford Hill, but I think the community is more Seven Sisters which is just outside Hackney.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 7, 2021)

Plus they come for the swimming and it isn't that far away .


----------



## Sue (Apr 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> There's a Brazilian cafe/Butchers in Upper Clapton, another one in Stamford Hill, but I think the community is more Seven Sisters which is just outside Hackney.


Yeah and at least one Brazilian shop/butchers on Mare St too.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 9, 2021)




----------



## Winot (Apr 12, 2021)

Had a wander through Soho. Pretty busy - lots of people sitting outside eating, nursing points and shivering slightly.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 12, 2021)

South London seems to be leading the way right now, as far as declining cases are concerned.



Lambeth now has a lower rate than many rural regions of the UK.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> Summer in a pandemic: How Londoners were drawn to a river
> 
> 
> When Sophia Evans visited the River Lea near Hackney Marshes she was astonished by the scenes of blissful enjoyment she saw there – a world away from the horrors of the news
> ...



Really wouldn't


----------



## Sue (Apr 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Really wouldn't



I walk along there really often and see the crap that's in the water -- no way I'd be going anywhere near it.


----------



## elbows (Apr 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> South London seems to be leading the way right now, as far as declining cases are concerned.



Hopefully they wont lead the way in a more worrisome regard:









						Covid: South African variant in Wandsworth and Lambeth surge test areas
					

NHS Test and Trace says 44 cases of the South African variant in two areas is "significant".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




*



			A "significant" cluster of the South African Covid-19 variant has been found in two areas of south London where surge testing has been implemented.
		
Click to expand...

*


> Wandsworth and Lambeth will see additional testing after 44 confirmed and 30 probable cases were identified.
> The Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) called it the "largest surge testing operation to date".


----------



## teuchter (Apr 12, 2021)

elbows said:


> Hopefully they wont lead the way in a more worrisome regard:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do we know what was the outcome of the previous 'surge testing' efforts in S london (and elsewhere) - do we know to what extenet they helped to identify and/or contain things?


----------



## marty21 (Apr 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Really wouldn't



Me neither , saw loads of people swimming there in the summer


----------



## elbows (Apr 13, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Do we know what was the outcome of the previous 'surge testing' efforts in S london (and elsewhere) - do we know to what extenet they helped to identify and/or contain things?



I havent seen much area-specific data. I certainly wouldnt expect such efforts to result in complete containment, since there is too much lag and nowhere near 100% surveillance for that result to be expected. And I might expect engagement with test systems to drop in the vaccination era, down from a level that wasnt all that impressive to start with.

Its still a useful exercise since it should give some sense of prevalence of new strains, but I think of it in terms of broad surveillance more than anything else. It may also have a useful psychological effect, but this too will be very incomplete.

The very limited amount of info in the public domain and the very limited nature of the media reporting on it means I cannot even answer simple questions such as whether the cases discovered more recently are descendants of the smaller clusters they discovered in these locations earlier in the year.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 13, 2021)

I've seen pics of Soho yesterday and already people going 'Selfish bastards, here comes the third wave' etc, but they looked liked they were perfectly well spread out outdoors in small groups and I didn't see anything especially irresponsible about this.  I do tire of people seeing anyone doing anything other than staying at home starting to yell about 'Third wave!'


----------



## Winot (Apr 13, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I've seen pics of Soho yesterday and already people going 'Selfish bustards, here comes the third wave' etc, but they looked liked they were perfectly well spread out outdoors in small groups and I didn't see anything especially irresponsible about this.  I do tire of people seeing anyone doing anything other than staying at home starting to yell about 'Third wave!'



I walked through Soho yesterday. It was perfectly safe.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 13, 2021)

Have corrected the autocorrect that assumed I was talking about overly-carefree seabirds.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Have corrected the autocorrect that assumed I was talking about overly-carefree seabirds.


bustards aren't seabirds. they live mainly in grasslands


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 13, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I've seen pics of Soho yesterday and already people going 'Selfish bastards, here comes the third wave' etc, but they looked liked they were perfectly well spread out outdoors in small groups and I didn't see anything especially irresponsible about this.  I do tire of people seeing anyone doing anything other than staying at home starting to yell about 'Third wave!'



Yeah, I completly agree.  We get a bit of it here too but I think its a bit more understandable here because its a place people can vent or get out their frustrations in a way we wouldn't necessarily do in the real world.

I do get that some people are very scared and I do get how this situation is causing huge anxiety (I feel it myself when I'm out and about and I'm statistically fairly low risk) but there needs to be an understanding that we require a balance.  So much has been sacrificed and lockdown has been so terrible for so many that hating on people just trying to gain a small bit of enjoyment within the rules seems a bit much.

I think there is something interesting going on here and its more than just the pandemic itself, its become a vector for other frustrations and anger about the world in general.  There is probably an interesting thread in here somewhere but perhaps not at the moment.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 13, 2021)

Wrong fred


----------



## Elpenor (Apr 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> bustards aren't seabirds. they live mainly in grasslands



Featured on Wiltshire’s county flag, a landlocked county


----------



## davesgcr (Apr 13, 2021)

For what it's worth I had my first run up today since before Xmas - trains to Manor Park , local buses - 3 seperate tube rides. 

Impeccable spacing and mask wearing (yes  we all hate them) , on public transport and pretty much people just glad to be released and out in this good weather.  Tube busier than national rail , but evident that there is some real worker as in suit / business traffic around and though it is a long way to go , it feels like a bit of normality coming back.  Central London away from retail areas , has some activity at last. 

I could have had a drink when I got to home station - several pubs serving outside , but being a good bloke I had to go back and do the dinner preparatons !


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 13, 2021)

I've learned from the last relaxations of regs that this is the time to do things, before the infection rate builds up. It won't be because of people going to pubs, but a whole load more people commuting and working, only a very small number of whom will have been vaccinated, yeah I can absolutely see it happening again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I've learned from the last relaxations of regs that this is the time to do things, before the infection rate builds up. It won't be because of people going to pubs, but a whole load more people commuting and working, only a very small number of whom will have been vaccinated, yeah I can absolutely see it happening again.


Johnson will dance round 10 Downing Street going oops I did it again


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Johnson will dance round 10 Downing Street going oops I did it again


It will be "_you_ did it again". Just like the last time. If only people had properly followed the rules etc etc. No chance that the rules might have been the problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It will be "_you_ did it again". Just like the last time. If only people had properly followed the rules etc etc.


When he's on his own he can be honest with himself while he's singing along to britney spears


----------



## elbows (Apr 13, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It will be "_you_ did it again". Just like the last time. If only people had properly followed the rules etc etc. No chance that the rules might have been the problem.



That narrative got very little traction last time. And even the government chose mostly to hide behind the new variant instead.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 13, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I've learned from the last relaxations of regs that this is the time to do things, before the infection rate builds up. It won't be because of people going to pubs, but a whole load more people commuting and working, only a very small number of whom will have been vaccinated, yeah I can absolutely see it happening again.



Funny enough, lots of people on here were moaning about the schools re-opening so early, and forecasting doom & gloom, with massive increases in cases, and what actually happened? 

Despite a massive increase in testing, and the more you look, the more you find, cases have actually dropped by about 60% since the 8th March. 

Despite some rabied backbench Tory MPs & rags like the Mail & Sun demanding the roadmap is speeded up, the [otherwise crap] government is sticking to it, the 5 week gap between restrictions being lifted seems reasonable to me, and as long as they stick with that & the data backs them up, I am happy enough.

Whilst vaccines will not totally solve this problem, they will help to bring it under control, and the bottom line is you can't keep people locked-up forever.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 13, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I've seen pics of Soho yesterday and already people going 'Selfish bastards, here comes the third wave' etc, but they looked liked they were perfectly well spread out outdoors in small groups and I didn't see anything especially irresponsible about this.  I do tire of people seeing anyone doing anything other than staying at home starting to yell about 'Third wave!'


Was up there last night and it was very calm, orderly with social distancing etc. Covent garden was not even that busy, whilst Leicester Square had a large but not massive crowd. This was at 10pm too, prime crazy hour. It was all winding down nicely by the time I left at 10.45 or so.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 13, 2021)

I do actually feel the roadmap is mostly reasonable aside from Boris' Magic Day of Freedom on 21 June. Part of me thinks they're mostly proposing it as they think that once you allow anything beyond small outdoor parties and one other household over indoors it'll be a total free-for-all anyway?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I do actually feel the roadmap is mostly reasonable aside from Boris' Magic Day of Freedom on 21 June. Part of me thinks they're mostly proposing it as they think that once you allow anything beyond small outdoor parties and one other household over indoors it'll be a total free-for-all anyway?


I'll settle for Johnson having a magic day of freedom on 21 June as long as he goes to prison the next day


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 14, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I do actually feel the roadmap is mostly reasonable aside from Boris' Magic Day of Freedom on 21 June. Part of me thinks they're mostly proposing it as they think that once you allow anything beyond small outdoor parties and one other household over indoors it'll be a total free-for-all anyway?



I agree, as I said on the main thread, we got away with re-opening the schools, I think we could get away with the latest changes, it's the next two stages that could be more of a problem, and, yeah, the June one is the most worrying one.


----------



## pbsmooth (Apr 14, 2021)

the issue was always hospitals getting full. if most vulnerable people have had vaccine, and people have already had covid too, seems unlikely hosptl numbers would ever rise sufficiently. they are low now.


----------



## elbows (Apr 14, 2021)

crojoe said:


> the issue was always hospitals getting full. if most vulnerable people have had vaccine, and people have already had covid too, seems unlikely hosptl numbers would ever rise sufficiently. they are low now.



That isnt what the modelling says though, and that modelling takes account of the UK vaccination programme, rates of infection at the time the modelling was done, and the level of population that has already acquired some natural immunity. The modelling isnt perfect but its a fair guide. And if I recall properly that modelling tends to show bigger third wave once the 3rd and 4th stages of relaxation of measures happen.


----------



## pbsmooth (Apr 14, 2021)

not sure I can see anything suggesting a 3rd wave would be bigger.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 14, 2021)

crojoe said:


> not sure I can see anything suggesting a 3rd wave would be bigger.


The thing that would easily suggest it, is not having any restrictions in place.


----------



## pbsmooth (Apr 14, 2021)

seems you've tried to be funny and clever but failed at both, so think I'll just ignore you.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 14, 2021)

Did some tube journeys today , Swiss Cottage to Green Park, then up to Southgate & down to Manor House , tubes were still pretty empty all the way.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 14, 2021)

But a third wave of deaths and hospitalisation or a third wave of infection (but without the aforementioned) ? Genuine question.


----------



## elbows (Apr 14, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> But a third wave of deaths and hospitalisation or a third wave of infection (but without the aforementioned) ? Genuine question.



SAGE modelling group summary from March, when looking at models that take into account unlocking and vaccination programme includes this:



> It is highly likely that there will be a further resurgence in hospitalisations and deaths after the later steps of the Roadmap. The scale, shape, and timing of any resurgence remain highly uncertain; in most scenarios modelled, any peak is smaller than the wave seen in January 2021, however, scenarios with little transmission reduction after Step 4 or with pessimistic but plausible vaccine efficacy assumptions can result in resurgences in hospitalisations of a similar scale to January 2021.





			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975909/S1182_SPI-M-O_Summary_of_modelling_of_easing_roadmap_step_2_restrictions.pdf
		


Its hard for me to include as much detail as is really necessary when quoting this stuff so maybe better to skim the whole thing. In some other threads I've also included links to the papers from individual universities upon which the summary is based. Scroll down to the Meeting 85, 31st March section of this page for those other papers if interested: SAGE meetings, March 2021


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 14, 2021)

Grim and scary and all the rest of it


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 14, 2021)

crojoe said:


> not sure I can see anything suggesting a 3rd wave would be bigger.



I'm not having a go but this post has just taken me flying back to September when we were being lectured by a poster (who strangely hasn't posted since) on how the second wave wasn't going to happen but if it did it was going to be mush smaller because second waves always are.

Great days, we've all been through so much together.


----------



## elbows (Apr 14, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I'm not having a go but this post has just taken me flying back to September when we were being lectured by a poster (who strangely hasn't posted since) on how the second wave wasn't going to happen but if it did it was going to be mush smaller because second waves always are.
> 
> Great days, we've all been through so much together.



There is something of a pattern where a few people with such attitudes appear at times where crucial decisions are being made as to what extent to impose measures, and when. And then they are nowhere to be found when the shit hits the fan.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I'm not having a go but this post has just taken me flying back to September when we were being lectured by a poster (who strangely hasn't posted since) on how the second wave wasn't going to happen but if it did it was going to be mush smaller because second waves always are.
> 
> Great days, we've all been through so much together.


Name name


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Name name



Oh go on then.  

Mr Retro


----------



## pbsmooth (Apr 14, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I'm not having a go but this post has just taken me flying back to September when we were being lectured by a poster (who strangely hasn't posted since) on how the second wave wasn't going to happen but if it did it was going to be mush smaller because second waves always are.
> 
> Great days, we've all been through so much together.



fair enough! I am not remotely in the denial camp but surely we can all agree now is different from then for lots of reasons that would mean for a less likely big wave of hospitalisations and deaths? I certainly, along with everyone else, could see the 2nd wave coming no problem


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 14, 2021)

crojoe said:


> fair enough! I am not remotely in the denial camp but surely we can all agree now is different from then for lots of reasons that would mean for a less likely big wave of hospitalisations and deaths? I certainly, along with everyone else, could see the 2nd wave coming no problem



Well, the vaccine situation will hopefully change the picture and there does seem to be a lot of antibodies flying around the population if that means anything.  Problem is I'm so frazzled by the last 12 months that I wouldn't want to make any predictions because they've always turned out to be wide of the mark.  I've long since accepted that because I hate lockdown so much I'm partial and all I'm doing is wishful thinking.

I'm going to leave it to the experts and as ever hope for the best but prepare (mentally at least) for the worst.


----------



## tommers (Apr 14, 2021)




----------



## wtfftw (Apr 14, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Do we know what was the outcome of the previous 'surge testing' efforts in S london (and elsewhere) - do we know to what extenet they helped to identify and/or contain things?


Dunno about the west Norwood or wherever ones but there's been SA testing in Southwark 3 weeks ago maybe? My postcode was on the list but I heard nothing about it until afterwards and even then not through official channels.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 14, 2021)

Doing testing for SA variant in our area,  apparently will be delivering pcr  tests from tomorrow. It's encouraging to see they are responding and trying to track


----------



## elbows (Apr 14, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Well, the vaccine situation will hopefully change the picture and there does seem to be a lot of antibodies flying around the population if that means anything.  Problem is I'm so frazzled by the last 12 months that I wouldn't want to make any predictions because they've always turned out to be wide of the mark.  I've long since accepted that because I hate lockdown so much I'm partial and all I'm doing is wishful thinking.
> 
> I'm going to leave it to the experts and as ever hope for the best but prepare (mentally at least) for the worst.



The antibodies from natural infection and from vaccination mean a lot.

But its a question of whether all the protective effect from those is able to carry the same weight that lockdowns etc had to carry in the past.

I suspect if people had a clearer sense of quite what percentage of vulnerable people managed to hide from the virus previously, then my point would be mirrored by comparing that percentage to the percentage of people that are now protected by prior infection and vaccination instead. This is what Im basically getting at when I talk about questions as to what extent vaccination can carry the pandemic weight on its own. Not that vaccination is left to carry 100% of the weight, there will still be some peoples behaviours that dont go back to normal, some lessons in terms of healthcare etc infections, and from some people carrying on wearing masks etc. But vaccines are still being asked to do rather a lot and Im just not sure people fully get that, hence my frequent posts about the modelling thats been done in this respect.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 15, 2021)

Didn't get tests today, but  from what a neighbour was saying I think they may have picked a couple of roads to sample in the area, not including ours. Which I'm fine with as I hate doing the throat swab - but they could extend it, of course.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 16, 2021)

Have also just (politely,  I think) told a local on Next door who titled a post saying there has been an OUTBREAK of variant c19 in our area to please be careful about using alarmist language as this was checking for contacts,  not a response to an identified outbreak


----------



## elbows (Apr 16, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Have also just (politely,  I think) told a local on Next door who titled a post saying there has been an OUTBREAK of variant c19 in our area to please be careful about using alarmist language as this was checking for contacts,  not a response to an identified outbreak



It depends what yo think of as an outbreak. I dont think I could claim it wasnt an outbreak, or at least some community spread.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 16, 2021)

This is what we had through the letterbox this week.


That was as well as this in an email



> Dear Resident,
> 
> We are in the midst of an incredible busy period with hugely significant events and announcements that impact on our borough having made been made in the last week.
> 
> ...



To me they have not entirely made clear what the purpose of this 'enhanced testing' is. Making clear what the purpose is, must surely influence the level of uptake.

They say it will help quickly identify cases and "help limit any potential spread" but how exactly? If this testing revealed a concentration of cases in one particular area would they then focus on that local area going door-to-door? Or is it a simple case of getting as much of the population tested, to catch as large a proportion of active cases as possible and then get those people to isolate?

Is there a centralised system where a certain threshold being breached within an LA area now triggers this "enhanced testing" being carried out?


----------



## Cloo (Apr 21, 2021)

We had similar here and did our test two days ago - both negative. I don't know if we'll hear anything back about prevalence of SA variant here. I suppose no news will be good news, but we will be told if there were many cases.


----------



## ash (Apr 21, 2021)

Cloo said:


> We had similar here and did our test two days ago - both negative. I don't know if we'll hear anything back about prevalence of SA variant here. I suppose no news will be good news, but we will be told if there were many cases.


It said on the local news that they would be announcing the results of the surge testing in a couple of days


----------



## teuchter (Apr 21, 2021)

There were some people out on the street handing out flyers today here in Lambeth so it seems they are still asking people to get tests.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Apr 21, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Doing testing for SA variant in our area,  apparently will be delivering pcr  tests from tomorrow. It's encouraging to see they are responding and trying to track


they did this in Tottenham and didn't find any evidence of spread, thankfully.


----------



## Winot (Apr 21, 2021)

They are sending PCR tests home with all the kids at the Winotettes secondary school (for surge testing).


----------



## teuchter (Apr 28, 2021)

Saw some pubs in the City open with actual humans sitting outside yesterday evening. Haven't seen that for some time.


----------



## davesgcr (Apr 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Saw some pubs in the City open with actual humans sitting outside yesterday evening. Haven't seen that for some time.



Likewise - outside Liverpool St station ! - all a bit busier in the area I noted (as I strolled over to Moorgate) - not that busy though outside the pub , but it was before 4pm.


----------



## Winot (Apr 28, 2021)

Most lunchtime takeaway places are still closed around Chancery Lane where I work, which is a sign that most people are still working from home.

The ones that are open have a few desultory chairs outside for people to sit on, eat their sandwiches, and shiver.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 28, 2021)

At King's Cross atm, huge queue of taxis , they still can't be getting much work surely.


----------



## Numbers (Apr 28, 2021)

I've been going up to the Royal London in Whitechapel 1 day a week and it's steadily got a lot busier, last week the entire strip where the stalls are was absolutely heaving.


----------



## hash tag (May 1, 2021)

I am now on the overground, my first time on public transport in about 15 months. There are at least 5 people without masks


----------



## Cloo (May 1, 2021)

I've booked an actual pub meet for my work team in a few weeks' time - people are a bit shy of committing, I guess some want to see how they feel about going into town nearer the time. Two aren't very social anyway, so probably won't want to come in. I guess I'll just have to nudge nearer the time, as if there's spaces, I'd like to invite some of the many colleagues we've taken on in the last 15 months and haven't met at all!

I had a bout of using tube during Easter break after not having been on it since the end of last October half term - going to use again on Monday when kids and I take train out to Windsor for a stroll. In the rain by the looks of things.


----------



## teuchter (May 1, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I am now on the overground, my first time on public transport in about 15 months. There are at least 5 people without masks


This is quite standard unfortunately... I just walk through until I find a carriage with the fewest maskless or chin-masked people.


----------



## Sue (May 1, 2021)

I'm on my way to meet a friend for brunch. (We were trying for lunch/dinner but booking somewhere central was a nightmare.) Is it too early for booze...?


----------



## spitfire (May 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm on my way to meet a friend for brunch. (We were trying for lunch/dinner but booking somewhere central was a nightmare.) Is it too early for booze...?



I see young Americans talking about mimosas on “social”. Apparently they are acceptable morning drinks. I don’t really know what they are though.


----------



## Sue (May 1, 2021)

Things are definitely back to normal. My bus has just gone on diversion and obviously I can't make it what the driver's saying.


----------



## stdP (May 1, 2021)

spitfire said:


> I see young Americans talking about mimosas on “social”. Apparently they are acceptable morning drinks. I don’t really know what they are though.



Bucks fizz as far as I'm aware. I can't speak for it's acceptability but it goes very well with eggs benedict (or a good ol' bacon sarnie) as part of a morning after routine


----------



## spitfire (May 1, 2021)

stdP said:


> Bucks fizz as far as I'm aware. I can't speak for it's acceptability but it goes very well with eggs benedict (or a good ol' bacon sarnie) as part of a morning after routine



There we have it. Get stuck in Sue.


----------



## Gramsci (May 1, 2021)

Surprised to see central London coming back to life. Spitalfields market looked busy and a lot of people having Friday post work drinks nearby. Liverpool Street Station actually had people around it at "rush" hour.

City firms aren't going to rush people back to offices any time soon.

Was chatting to someone who works in finance. They have been quite happy working from home. Said most of work did not need and office. Her boss has been working out of his second home in country.

I do think pandemic is going to change how work is done and where its done.

Person I chatted to had spent some of the time "wfh" on a sunny island.

Global capitalism does not need actual permanent offices in City. 

I've got used to City being home for a few security guards, couriers (those few left) and post room staff.

And Traffic Wardens. Somewhat surreal. You can't park here on this empty street.


----------



## tony.c (May 1, 2021)

spitfire said:


> I see young Americans talking about mimosas on “social”. Apparently they are acceptable morning drinks. I don’t really know what they are though.





stdP said:


> Bucks fizz as far as I'm aware. I can't speak for it's acceptability but it goes very well with eggs benedict (or a good ol' bacon sarnie) as part of a morning after routine



Different proportions of orange juice and champagne apparently.


----------



## iveivan (May 1, 2021)

I like the sound of a Bellini


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 1, 2021)

I would say noticeably more unmasked folk or nose jobs on the tube today. Overall compliance is still very high though so I doubt there would be any effect even if it wasn't just my own personal experience.

I am in a pub/restaurant with an outdoor area. There are some extremely drunk people here.


----------



## Numbers (May 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm on my way to meet a friend for brunch. (We were trying for lunch/dinner but booking somewhere central was a nightmare.) Is it too early for booze...?


We always drink Cava if ever questioning how early it may be for a beginiger.


----------



## Sue (May 1, 2021)

spitfire said:


> There we have it. Get stuck in Sue.


Well, did coffee. Now on the wine elsewhere.


----------



## colacubes (May 1, 2021)

Wandered round town a long way today. Did Waterloo - London Bridge - Charing Cross - Kings Cross - Farringdon on foot. It’s mostly quiet with pockets of busyness. Borough Market, Covent Garden and Coal Drop Yard all very busy, but everywhere in between was really quiet and very little traffic. Most people in shops and trains wearing masks.


----------



## magneze (May 1, 2021)

Was riding around today and we went through Kingston. Town center is "Christmas busy". So many people about. The most I've seen for over a year.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm on my way to meet a friend for brunch. (We were trying for lunch/dinner but booking somewhere central was a nightmare.) Is it too early for booze...?


The sun is always over the yard-arm somewhere


----------



## hash tag (May 1, 2021)

colacubes said:


> Wandered round town a long way today. Did Waterloo - London Bridge - Charing Cross - Kings Cross - Farringdon on foot. It’s mostly quiet with pockets of busyness. Borough Market, Covent Garden and Coal Drop Yard all very busy, but everywhere in between was really quiet and very little traffic. Most people in shops and trains wearing masks.


Borough is for tourists, just so yesterday. We did Maltby Street a few weeks ago, which was ok and, by chance, we did Lucy Way in Bermondsey today, which was great...fruit n veg, bread, wine, beer, coffee


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## BigMoaner (May 3, 2021)

colacubes said:


> Wandered round town a long way today. Did Waterloo - London Bridge - Charing Cross - Kings Cross - Farringdon on foot. It’s mostly quiet with pockets of busyness. Borough Market, Covent Garden and Coal Drop Yard all very busy, but everywhere in between was really quiet and very little traffic. Most people in shops and trains wearing masks.


similar to the kind of walks i have been doing all through lockdown. "exploring the city" but by good by teh winter months it was pretty horrendous, no matter how much gorgeous architecture around. there's something pretty existentially dreadful and a bit haunting about empty cities during a global pandemic.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> similar to the kind of walks i have been doing all through lockdown. "exploring the city" but by good by teh winter months it was pretty horrendous, no matter how much gorgeous architecture around. there's something pretty existentially dreadful and a bit haunting about empty cities during a global pandemic.


----------



## teuchter (May 3, 2021)

colacubes said:


> Wandered round town a long way today. Did Waterloo - London Bridge - Charing Cross - Kings Cross - Farringdon on foot. It’s *mostly quiet with pockets of busyness*. Borough Market, Covent Garden and Coal Drop Yard all very busy, but everywhere in between was really quiet and very little traffic. Most people in shops and trains wearing masks.


Same observation at the weekend. A few streets round clerkenwell with cafes etc pretty busy, Exmouth market pretty busy, busy along the canal. 

Coal Drops Yard was especially busy... in fact it kind of made me realise I'd almost forgotten what a city is supposed to sound like, with lots of people around.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 3, 2021)

clever clogs here didn't book a table on friday and wondered around west end for 2 hours on friday trying to find a place. nothing. nada. ended up in five guys. Matron.


----------



## marty21 (May 3, 2021)

I walked over to Hackney Wick yesterday,  loads of new bars there with plenty of outside seating . It was heaving with folk.


----------



## miss direct (May 3, 2021)

Canary Wharf seems fairly busy. I'm staying nearby - hadn't been for decades until now, so I have nothing to compare it with, but there are definitely people around, especially after work.


----------



## colacubes (May 3, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Same observation at the weekend. A few streets round clerkenwell with cafes etc pretty busy, Exmouth market pretty busy, busy along the canal.
> 
> Coal Drops Yard was especially busy... in fact it kind of made me realise I'd almost forgotten what a city is supposed to sound like, with lots of people around.


We were going to stop for a drink there but decided against as it was all a bit much


----------



## William of Walworth (May 3, 2021)

Very early June will be my first time back passing through London since fuck knows when .... June 2019 possibly???? 

But I knew the places to avoid crowds in/outside pubs then, and I'll do a bit more research for the same result for when I return 

This thread is very useful too


----------



## Epona (May 8, 2021)

Well OH and I went for drink outside our grotty local and we were cornered for about 20 minutes by an elderly and very drunk and incoherent bloke who kept wanting to shake hands with us, saying "it's ok, I've had 2 jabs".  Then another younger bloke came up to ask OH if he could spare a cigarette, older drunk bloke fell over and younger bloke offered him a hand to help him up and then older bloke thought he had been attacked by younger bloke and after he had got back on his feet was waving his fists around wanting a fight and punched the younger bloke in the face 

It ended with them having a hug, which I don't think is COVID secure.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 8, 2021)

Epona  : Nice, laid-back local that sounds like  

What's it been like before there was Covid??


----------



## Epona (May 9, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Epona  : Nice, laid-back local that sounds like
> 
> What's it been like before there was Covid??



Oh it's a real shithole, but the lager is pretty cheap and it is on the way back from Morrisons so we usually find we need a break at that point.  For purposes of going out for a drink we'd normally go a bit further to the Black Lion in Plaistow which is a nice pub with a huge beer garden, guest ales, and pub grub Monday to Friday, but for some unknown reason isn't open til the 17th - maybe they've sold off the garden to build flats on it like every other bit of space around here!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 9, 2021)

I can confirm that Speaker's Corner is just as full (if not fuller) of religious types, MRAs, and a man dressed as a Roman centurion as ever. As well as plenty of folk arguing with them. Nobody was talking about the virus that I heard - far more important issues to worry about.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 9, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can confirm that Speaker's Corner is just as full (if not fuller) of religious types, MRAs, and a man dressed as a Roman centurion as ever. As well as plenty of folk arguing with them. Nobody was talking about the virus that I heard - far more important issues to worry about.
> 
> View attachment 267489View attachment 267490View attachment 267491View attachment 267492


----------



## Winot (May 9, 2021)

I’ve been on the tube a number of times recently and mask compliance seems pretty good. Did a short train ride Vauxhall-Kew Bridge today and half the people in the carriage were without masks.

I wonder whether getting onto a train from an open air platform leads to complacency?


----------



## Cloo (May 9, 2021)

Went to the King's Road yesterday to buy some stuff - as usually it can be relied upon to be quieter than other central high streets, and it has a few shops I like that aren't elsewhere/ Busiest I've ever seen it - West End must have been a nightmare then!

Mask compliance seemed to be pretty good on the whole - busiest tubes I'd been on but still not packed.


----------



## hash tag (May 17, 2021)

Piccadilly about 4 and carnaby street at 6.


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2021)

Soho & chinatown were packed on Saturday and shops in covent garden seemed fairly busy.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 17, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Piccadilly about 4 and carnaby street at 6.
> View attachment 268810View attachment 268811


Everyone Working from home.


----------



## hash tag (May 17, 2021)

,& lack of tourists. Very sad.


----------



## magneze (May 17, 2021)

Tbf if it was packed everyone would be moaning about the lack of social distance.


----------



## magneze (May 17, 2021)

I imagine pub indoors are packed in some area. The weather could really fuck  things up infection wise.


----------



## Sue (May 17, 2021)

Just passing through Shoreditch. Very busy.


----------



## magneze (May 17, 2021)

Indoors or out or both?


----------



## Sue (May 17, 2021)

magneze said:


> Indoors or out or both?


Indoors. Was kind of wet.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 17, 2021)

magneze said:


> I imagine pub indoors are packed in some area. The weather could really fuck  things up infection wise.


Had a stroll around Brixton tonight. Proper dead from what I could make out


----------



## BigMoaner (May 17, 2021)

London going to get weird with all this working from home malarky


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> Had a stroll around Brixton tonight. Proper dead from what I could make out


Well it's a Monday night after several hours of torrential rain and hail.


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2021)

Herne hill rush hour.


----------



## Numbers (May 18, 2021)

Passed through West Ham this morning at 9am and I was completely taken aback at how busy it was, like a normal rush hour.


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2021)

I think people are going to return to central London more quickly and in greater numbers than some are assuming. But who knows.


----------



## pesh (May 18, 2021)

I think we're going to get another 4 to 6 week period of commercial property owning types screeching about people working from home being communist scum who should be taxed through the eyeballs and all the money raised given to them, followed by the government piling in with similar messages for the final 10 days or so before we go into the 3rd lockdown, B.1.617 flavour.


----------



## hash tag (May 18, 2021)

I think the area's I visited yesterday were so quiet as they were predominately tourist areas as opposed to working ones. 
We went to Dishoom. I tried to book Covent garden but is was fully booked. I easily booked Carnaby Street and amended it.
It was about half full and bloody marvelous. It was so good to be out again.


----------



## davesgcr (May 18, 2021)

Went up on the 1043 to Brighton and got off at East Croydon as I craved a tram ride. So rode to Wimbledon (memory lane as I lived there for 8 years) , lunched at the Prince Albert and got a train to Waterloo after a mooch around - 68 bus to Aldwych and walked via Covent Garden to Leicester Square and Piccadilly line to KX and home.

Like a tap has turned on - with the exception of light class 455 (the real believers will know) , it was very decently busy all round - great to see the Tube more than half full and "normal" platforms and escalators - so all to play for. Quite impressed.


----------



## quimcunx (May 18, 2021)

I am off on Friday and thought maybe I'll go into town. Your last paragraph changed my mind!


----------



## davesgcr (May 18, 2021)

quimcunx said:


> I am off on Friday and thought maybe I'll go into town. Your last paragraph changed my mind!



Not put you off I hope. People being very sensible all round I thought. (but then I have had both jabs) -

"Normal" off peak loadings near enough.


----------



## hash tag (May 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Herne hill rush hour.
> 
> View attachment 268904





quimcunx said:


> I am off on Friday and thought maybe I'll go into town. Your last paragraph changed my mind!


see pics above, they don't lie. It was peak times and very empty hereabouts.
I have worked  a crafty one and am not working this weekend. I suspect the gallery's and museums will be
quiet. I can't wait.


----------



## Numbers (May 18, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I think the area's I visited yesterday were so quiet as they were predominately tourist areas as opposed to working ones.
> We went to Dishoom. I tried to book Covent garden but is was fully booked. I easily booked Carnaby Street and amended it.
> It was about half full and bloody marvelous. It was so good to be out again.


We absolutely Love Dishoom, must have been great.


----------



## davesgcr (May 18, 2021)

Good - I walked through Covent Garden today (Aldwych to Leicester Square) , and I noted with some satisfaction that the LT Museum was open for business (plus the shop where I called in to see if any tempting hard core books marked down in the sale !)

Really looking for some gallery and museum visits soon.


----------



## hash tag (May 18, 2021)

For @numbers


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2021)

hash tag said:


> For @numbersView attachment 269017


Numbers


----------



## hash tag (May 18, 2021)

for Numbers rushed from mobile


----------



## teuchter (May 19, 2021)

Vaccine uptake in London is very poor compared to the rest of the UK. Doesn't make me feel very positive about the next few months.




London boroughs at the top of the list of UK's lowest uptake areas:


----------



## LeytonCatLady (May 19, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Vaccine uptake in London is very poor compared to the rest of the UK. Doesn't make me feel very positive about the next few months.
> 
> View attachment 269116
> 
> ...


That first bit doesn't make sense anyway. "Only people with an NHS number who are currently alive are included?" Well, I didn't expect them to be vaccinating the dead...


----------



## Teaboy (May 19, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> That first bit doesn't make sense anyway. "Only people with an NHS number who are currently alive are included?" Well, I didn't expect them to be vaccinating the dead...



Presumably they mean people who were vaccinated but have since died?


----------



## LeytonCatLady (May 19, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Presumably they mean people who were vaccinated but have since died?


Duh! That'll teach me to post before I've had my coffee.


----------



## elbows (May 19, 2021)

Its more about what population size estimates they use to generate the percentage figures. They dont have a 100% reliable set of figures for this, and if they didnt adjust those figures to take account of deaths then they would be even further wide of the mark.


----------



## elbows (May 19, 2021)

And with that in mind I suppose we have to consider whether the underlying population figures for London might be more wide of the mark than some other places. I would not expect that to account for all of the lower figures seen for London, but it might contribute somewhat to the phenomenon.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 19, 2021)

So are people here going indoors in pubs and restaurants and/or people's homes? I've decided to wait a bit to see what happens with the Indian variant but some of my friends are charging out into pubs and I'm feeling a bit of a killjoy.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (May 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> So are people here going indoors in pubs and restaurants and/or people's homes? I've decided to wait a bit to see what happens with the Indian variant but some of my friends are charging out into pubs and I'm feeling a bit of a killjoy.


You do whatever you feel is safest. I'm probably going to have a day out this weekend but that's my personal preference and would never expect anyone to do anything they're not comfortable with. Just because you're allowed to socialise again doesn't mean you have to!


----------



## marty21 (May 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> So are people here going indoors in pubs and restaurants and/or people's homes? I've decided to wait a bit to see what happens with the Indian variant but some of my friends are charging out into pubs and I'm feeling a bit of a killjoy.


I haven't been in to any London pubs as I've been in Suffolk since Friday. I have been to the only pub in the village (Dunwich) we had to wait to be checked in , then shown to a table (had to book) . It was all a but of a faff tbf.  

Hoping my local in Hackney is less of a faff.


----------



## Teaboy (May 19, 2021)

I've not been inside a pub since Feb 2020 apart from passing through to the toilet or garden.  I did go to several restaurants after lockdown 1 and felt far more at risk in a couple of them (pretty high end as well) than I would have done in any pub I'd seen.  Tables just far too close together.

As for now I would sit in a pub, restaurant, cafe etc but I will make sure I choose them carefully. Well ventilated, not over busy etc.  Its no guarantee but its playing the odds.

I wouldn't go around other peoples homes, much rather meet in the park etc.  Homes are designed to be air tight and we British have an odd view on ventilating our homes.  That's a risk too far and everyone I know who has had a confirmed positive test caught it their own home or someone else's.  I've banged on about this throughout but whilst everyone points the fingers at hospitality its actually our homes where most of the transmission happens.


----------



## elbows (May 19, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I've not been inside a pub since Feb 2020 apart from passing through to the toilet or garden.  I did go to several restaurants after lockdown 1 and felt far more at risk in a couple of them (pretty high end as well) than I would have done in any pub I'd seen.  Tables just far too close together.
> 
> As for now I would sit in a pub, restaurant, cafe etc but I will make sure I choose them carefully. Well ventilated, not over busy etc.  Its no guarantee but its playing the odds.
> 
> I wouldn't go around other peoples homes, much rather meet in the park etc.  Homes are designed to be air tight and we British have an odd view on ventilating our homes.  That's a risk too far and everyone I know who has had a confirmed positive test caught it their own home or someone else's.  I've banged on about this throughout but whilst everyone points the fingers at hospitality its actually our homes where most of the transmission happens.


Sort of. Transmission within homes is much easier for them to confirm because its so obvious to trace contacts and make assumptions about source of infection when people spread it to other people that live with them.

Clearly there also has to be significant transmission between households in various settings, not just within households, otherwise it wouldnt spread across the population in the way it has.

Ventillation is very important and the other obvious large factors are how close the contact is and how prolonged the contact is.

We can see the factors I've mentioned at play when reading their attempts to take a proper look at evidence for spread in the hospitality sector. In those settings it tends to be the staff who work there that show statistically significant levels of risk/infection. And I'd say that conclusion is because of the real factors such as working at close hand with others for many hours a day, and communal areas, so similar to household transmission factors in that regard. But probably also thats the strongest picture they get because its much easier for them to join those dots when staff are involved. As opposed to the customers where really the whole track & trace system and attempts at analysis that sit atop that system has been poor and they've been left with much weaker data about where people that arent staff caught it from as a result. But yes, customers overall risk might be expected to be less because they dont spend as long in those settings as the staff do.


----------



## teuchter (May 19, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I've not been inside a pub since Feb 2020 apart from passing through to the toilet or garden.


Same here. Have eaten out indoors only once or twice. I've no intention of going inside a pub or restaurant for at least a few weeks yet. But I've been going in shops a bit and on public transport.

Going to a friend's house tomorrow and that'll be the first time I've done that since last summer. I feel that's less risky than a pub because I know them, they've both been vaccinated and are fairly sensible, and unlike a pub it's not loads of people crammed into a space many of whom I've no idea whether they have been being careful in any way.

I actually don't feel a pub is ultra risky right now because of the low prevalence but as long as the weather's nice enough why not just sit outside.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 19, 2021)

going for a curry tonight with a mate up in covent garden. really looking foward to it. i've been fasting all day and going to hoover it up.


----------



## hash tag (May 19, 2021)

No probs with restaurants. Me n Mrs tag have long since had our second vaccines. Restaurants are well controlled. Dishoom at Carnaby st on Monday was half full and the streets were empty. I expect wholefood cafe in Streatham tonight will also be fine. I would be a touch wary of pubs though. I am sure a dining orientated pub will be fine.


----------



## Teaboy (May 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> No probs with restaurants. Me n Mrs tag have long since had our second vaccines. Restaurants are well controlled. Dishoom at Carnaby At on Monday was half full and the streets were empty. I expect wholefood cafe in Streatham tonight will also be fine. I would be a touch wary of pubs though. I am sure a dining orientated pub will be fine.



That wasn't my experience last year.  I found tables far too close together and just too many people crammed inside.  Obviously depends upon the place and might be different this time around but I will be avoiding a lot of them.

I think if we're being honest our perception of risk is influenced by our desires.  If we like something then we're already biased as to the level of risk.  Stuff we're less into is considered more risky even if there is no objective reason for it.  I know I am.


----------



## hash tag (May 19, 2021)

I guess it depends how you define restaurant. 2 out of 2 have been fine. Just thinking where to go on Friday  I guess it depends on type of place and time.
I was classed as extreme high risk and am comfortable. A pub in the sticks Friday or this weekend maybe. Pizza or burger joint would also be good.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> That wasn't my experience last year.  I found tables far too close together and just too many people crammed inside.  Obviously depends upon the place and might be different this time around but I will be avoiding a lot of them.
> 
> I think if we're being honest our perception of risk is influenced by our desires.  If we like something then we're already biased as to the level of risk.  Stuff we're less into is considered more risky even if there is no objective reason for it.  I know I am.


tbh very few people can properly assess risk as we're prey (as you suggest) to many influences - both those we know about and those we don't appreciate - when we come to judge things. add in a general inability with statistics so that at the best of times in the land of the blind the statistically one eyed man is king. not bigging myself up, i'm as prone to these analytical pathologies as anyone else.

but yeh i'm avoiding these places because tho i want to go to them i really don't want the lurgy after doing so well for the past year


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> No probs with restaurants. Me n Mrs tag have long since had our second vaccines. Restaurants are well controlled. Dishoom at Carnaby st on Monday was half full and the streets were empty. I expect wholefood cafe in Streatham tonight will also be fine. I would be a touch wary of pubs though. I am sure a dining orientated pub will be fine.


Dishoom Kensington was rammed last night, was there for a friend's birthday. But I've worked and caught London buses to work the entire year.


----------



## Elpenor (May 19, 2021)

The pub in my village opened today, but while I have to book I won’t be going, I’d be going on my own for a pint and ideally to chat / meet a few people and under the current virus protocols that’s basically not allowed. It doesn’t have an outdoor area (or if it does it’s a very small one).

The pub the next village has a big outdoor area but also requires pre-booking.


----------



## RubyToogood (May 19, 2021)

I feel pretty relaxed at the moment as I, my mother and her carer have all had two jabs. I went and worked from a cafe for a bit yesterday as I am absolutely sick to death of my house and being on my own.

I've been contemplating going into "my" office, where I have never actually been, taking advantage of things hopefully being quiet, for rehabilitation purposes. It's in Moorgate. But it may not stay quiet for long I guess. Anyone been there lately?


----------



## Sue (May 19, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> I feel pretty relaxed at the moment as I, my mother and her carer have all had two jabs. I went and worked from a cafe for a bit yesterday as I am absolutely sick to death of my house and being on my own.
> 
> I've been contemplating going into "my" office, where I have never actually been, taking advantage of things hopefully being quiet, for rehabilitation purposes. It's in Moorgate. But it may not stay quiet for long I guess. Anyone been there lately?


My office is in Old St and I haven't been in either. My colleagues who have -- including one who gets the train to Moorgate then walks -- say it's really quiet still though.


----------



## Epona (May 19, 2021)

Not in London, but this is probably the best thread to talk about upcoming plans - I have made tentative arrangements to go visit my parents in early July - which will be a few weeks after my 2nd jab and a couple of weeks after my mum's cataract surgery - we'll all have had 2 jabs and be very careful in the 10 days beforehand.

I've not seen them since Xmas day 2019.


----------



## hash tag (May 19, 2021)

We are booked into a hotel in Norfolk in a couple of weeks to finally meet up with outlaws and my children. My eldest is still the only one without first jab yet. Everyone else has now had both.
I'm now told we will be eating in Waterloo area Friday night ( time for tea )


----------



## davesgcr (May 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> For @numbersView attachment 269017



There is apparently a new branch in Covent Garden - daughter went last night and it was 50% off. Said it was excellent. She was with a friend who knows "proper" Indian food and she gave it a thumbs up.


----------



## marty21 (May 19, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> I feel pretty relaxed at the moment as I, my mother and her carer have all had two jabs. I went and worked from a cafe for a bit yesterday as I am absolutely sick to death of my house and being on my own.
> 
> I've been contemplating going into "my" office, where I have never actually been, taking advantage of things hopefully being quiet, for rehabilitation purposes. It's in Moorgate. But it may not stay quiet for long I guess. Anyone been there lately?


I go through Moorgate every couple of weeks , usually very quiet.


----------



## hash tag (May 19, 2021)

davesgcr said:


> There is apparently a new branch in Covent Garden - daughter went last night and it was 50% off. Said it was excellent. She was with a friend who knows "proper" Indian food and she gave it a thumbs up.


Upper At Martin's Lane? We went there two+ years ago. I don't get it. That was my first choice for Monday because of its proximity to Marriage Freres and Waterloo. I couldn't get a table. Tell daughter it's not the best Dishoom. Both carnaby st and Kensington both have a better feel


----------



## hash tag (May 19, 2021)

Recommendations invited. There are no tourists, everywhere will be a lot less busy than normal, I have wangled the weekend off work. What gallery or museum do I hit first?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Recommendations invited. There are no tourists, everywhere will be a lot less busy than normal, I have wangled the weekend off work. What gallery or museum do I hit first?



I miss the BM but not sure how well I'd handle the long circuit route they've got open, I like meandering and loitering and doubling back to much.

If you like Egypt Petrie museum is open and if you like bone the Grant Museum is open, both are much smaller and could probably do with the support. Alas the Hunterian is shut till 2023 so no fun with cadavers.


----------



## davesgcr (May 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Upper At Martin's Lane? We went there two+ years ago. I don't get it. That was my first choice for Monday because of its proximity to Marriage Freres and Waterloo. I couldn't get a table. Tell daughter it's not the best Dishoom. Both carnaby st and Kensington both have a better feel



Noted - she was well pleased in any case.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 19, 2021)

Previous page has made me miss Dishoom btw so nice viral marketing there.

Best chai I've ever had.


----------



## wtfftw (May 19, 2021)

The covent garden one has just been redone. Just fyi.


----------



## RubyToogood (May 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Recommendations invited. There are no tourists, everywhere will be a lot less busy than normal, I have wangled the weekend off work. What gallery or museum do I hit first?


I've got a ticket to the history of chintz exhibition at the Fashion and Textile Museum but I appreciate this may not be everyone's bag.


----------



## muscovyduck (May 19, 2021)

pesh said:


> I think we're going to get another 4 to 6 week period of commercial property owning types screeching about people working from home being communist scum who should be taxed through the eyeballs and all the money raised given to them, followed by the government piling in with similar messages for the final 10 days or so before we go into the 3rd lockdown, B.1.617 flavour.


Is it that time of year already?


----------



## BigMoaner (May 19, 2021)

Was in Covent garden area tonight for a curry. A really nice level of business everywhere.


----------



## hash tag (May 20, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> I've got a ticket to the history of chintz exhibition at the Fashion and Textrightile Museum but I appreciate this may not be everyone's bag.


You are right. Have been to the museum and nice area for a stroll around.


----------



## what (May 20, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Recommendations invited. There are no tourists, everywhere will be a lot less busy than normal, I have wangled the weekend off work. What gallery or museum do I hit first?


Check before you go but i think most places you have to book a ticket/time slot before you go. I believe the free places are still free just need to book in advance


----------



## hash tag (May 20, 2021)

I gather Crossness is open in Sunday, a real stunner of a place, but not quite what I had in mind.
I thought there was a Rodin exhibition on somewhere (ges to look). Paula Rego at the Tate looks interesting but
is not on yet.
This will be very near the top of Mrs Tag's list THE CARTOON MUSEUM

edit - The Making of Rodin review – the sculptor in a ghostly new light


----------



## RubyToogood (May 20, 2021)

what said:


> Check before you go but i think most places you have to book a ticket/time slot before you go. I believe the free places are still free just need to book in advance


This is true, also lots of places you would ordinarily wander round free range have a strict one way system which I'm not keen on. Well, Tate Britain did last summer anyway.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 20, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> This is true, also lots of places you would ordinarily wander round free range have a strict one way system...


Tesco's ?


----------



## hash tag (May 20, 2021)

Tesco's. Free range. I doubt it.


----------



## teuchter (May 21, 2021)

This is the overground from Denmark Hill at 9.20am. It's not very much different from what I'd expect in normal times.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 21, 2021)

I've seen London trains and tubes *far* m,ore crowded than that in normal times!

Doesn't look too bad in that picture to me, or am I missing something?


----------



## colacubes (May 21, 2021)

I got a train from Woking to Clapham Junction at 08:45 this morning and it was like a ghost town. 12 carriage train and about 15 people in my carriage maybe.


----------



## ash (May 21, 2021)

That looks a lot less crowded than normal - seats between people and no packed standing . It would normally be packed.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 21, 2021)

cinema on my todd in west norwood last night. was lovely. half full. saw nomadland - very good, if a little bleak.


----------



## colacubes (May 21, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> cinema on my todd in west norwood last night. was lovely. half full. saw nomadland - very good, if a little bleak.



What was the set up like Covid wise?


----------



## BigMoaner (May 21, 2021)

colacubes said:


> What was the set up like Covid wise?


it was difficult to tell, tbh, because it was only a third or so full. i think they would have blocked off seats on teh booking system. there was people sat direclty behind and infront of me though. masks had to be worn only when walking around. it felt very normal, tbh.


----------



## pbsmooth (May 21, 2021)

did a 8-9am commute on national rail and tube through central and would say 50% normal capacity at most.


----------



## teuchter (May 21, 2021)

ash said:


> That looks a lot less crowded than normal - seats between people and no packed standing . It would normally be packed.


At rush hour sure. This was after 9. Not loads less busy than I'd normally expect off peak on a weekday morning.


----------



## hash tag (May 21, 2021)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 269437
> This is the overground from Denmark Hill at 9.20am. It's not very much different from what I'd expect in normal times.


Was after going to the phoenix for food and drink tonight (using overground). Mrs tag say no!


----------



## marty21 (May 21, 2021)

I guess drinking indoors in a London pub is unlockening,  that's what I'm doing , for the 1st time since December.


----------



## ash (May 21, 2021)

teuchter said:


> At rush hour sure. This was after 9. Not loads less busy than I'd normally expect off peak on a weekday morning.


In my experience rush hour used to be about 6.30 - 10 and that line gets busy and all seats take most times of day.  In the before times.


----------



## thismoment (May 21, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> cinema on my todd in west norwood last night. was lovely. half full. saw nomadland - very good, if a little bleak.


It’s open!!! Something for me to do when the baby sleeps!
Edit: not so keen on any of the films out now but i’ll keep a look out for other films


----------



## hash tag (May 21, 2021)

thismoment said:


> It’s open!!! Something for me to do when the baby sleeps!
> Edit: not so keen on any of the films out now but i’ll keep a look out for other films


Sound of Metal....can't wait to see it


----------



## marty21 (May 22, 2021)

Saw another sign of the unlockening this morning,  the 'spoons in Stoke Newington was open at about 8am for breakfast lagers.


----------



## hash tag (May 22, 2021)

Lager    you can usually get a decent pint in spoons


----------



## marty21 (May 22, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Lager    you can usually get a decent pint in spoons


I've only been for breakfast in one once , and they were all drinking lager.  So I have made this conclusion on rather limited data tbf .


----------



## hash tag (May 22, 2021)

Conclusion. People who go to spoons for breakfast are lager drinkers. Fair conclusion I suppose.


----------



## hash tag (May 23, 2021)

Coming home yesterday....though I suppose no one would come near me


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I've only been for breakfast in one once , and they were all drinking lager.  So I have made this conclusion on rather limited data tbf .


What were you drinking?


----------



## LeytonCatLady (May 23, 2021)

Me on Friday afternoon, Victoria line from Tottenham Hale to Oxford Circus. You can probably see in the window reflection there was just one other person in the carriage. The journey home was more crowded, though I still managed to get a seat.


----------



## nagapie (May 23, 2021)

I don't know when everyone is travelling but all my buses, tubes and trains are full.


----------



## Epona (May 26, 2021)

Yeah I had an absolute nightmare on the bus to Sainsbury's the other day, the whole expedition felt very risky (although not at an early enough point for me to back out, the bus started getting crowded when I was halfway there - aren't the drivers supposed to stop letting people on???)

Went out and met friends Tuesday night, I found myself in an unexpected hugging situation - I don't normally hug but friend was getting teary thinking about her mum's death so I did what I think is expected in these situations, I just hope I didn't catch anything.

(Much later edit to add: that doesn't actually differ too much from my views on hugging in normal times - do what is socially required and hope I don't catch anything)


----------



## marty21 (May 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What were you drinking?


I didn't partake , couldn't even face hair of the dog that morning . My host in the #grimnorth suggested the venue


----------



## zora (May 26, 2021)

Just having a little beer along the river, and someone from the neighbouring table asked me to take a photo of them!
Speaking to a stranger! Allowing someone else to handle their phone! Whatever next!


----------



## BigMoaner (May 27, 2021)

south bank was packed today. only a few resturants/pubs/bars with empty seats.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 27, 2021)

zora said:


> Just having a little beer along the river, and someone from the neighbouring table asked me to take a photo of them!
> Speaking to a stranger! Allowing someone else to handle their phone! Whatever next!


that's wild tbh.


----------



## hash tag (May 27, 2021)

This evening I tried to book a table for breakfast for Saturday morning. Many places already fully booked  I have got somewhere but a full English will probably not be on the menu.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 27, 2021)

hash tag said:


> This evening I tried to book a table for breakfast for Saturday morning. Many places already fully booked  I have got somewhere but a full English will probably not be on the menu.


well as long as it's different from your last turn out. still angry about it.


----------



## NoXion (May 28, 2021)

I'll be heading into London from the west this afternoon... I really hope it isn't too busy.


----------



## Numbers (May 28, 2021)

Been in 2 pubs today + a restaurant for lunch (+ Dub London exhibition at Museum of London), I’m/we’re so merry, no doubt in days of yore we’d be calling it on and getting proper buckled, but we’re heading home cos our feet hurt


----------



## spitfire (May 28, 2021)

Numbers said:


> Been in 2 pubs today + a restaurant for lunch (+ Dub London exhibition at Museum of London), I’m/we’re so merry, no doubt in days of yore we’d be calling it on and getting proper buckled, but we’re heading home cos our feet hurt



Is the exhibition good? I went to the Clash one and it was good but tiny and packed.


----------



## spitfire (May 28, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> well as long as it's different from your last turn out. still angry about it.





> @BigMoaner
> 
> Looking at this beautiful bastard I cooked at the weekend
> 
> View attachment 266352



This you?


----------



## Sue (May 28, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Is the exhibition good? I went to the Clash one and it was good but tiny and packed.


I liked the smashed up London Calling guitar.


----------



## spitfire (May 28, 2021)

Sue said:


> I liked the smashed up London Calling guitar.



Hah. Yeah. Was cool. I got a photo of Mini Fire with the Before shot.


----------



## Sue (May 28, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Hah. Yeah. Was cool. I got a photo of Mini Fire with the Before shot.
> 
> View attachment 270666


I must say that Mini Fire looks slightly underwhelmed...  (And I'm sure that's after you explaining its significance at length too... )


----------



## teuchter (May 28, 2021)

Oxford St & Regent St this afternoon. Busy-ish but not very busy.

Definitely more traffic around than a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## spitfire (May 28, 2021)

Sue said:


> I must say that Mini Fire looks slightly underwhelmed...  (And I'm sure that's after you explaining its significance at length too... )



That’s her rock and roll face. She knew the vibe. :


----------



## Sue (May 28, 2021)

Actually, it makes me a wee bit sad. The weekend I went to that exhibition (February 2020?) was the last time I saw any of my family. My sister was down and we went to see it together.


----------



## spitfire (May 28, 2021)

Yes 8th Feb 2020 on the photo. Last time my parents were over here. We did pop over to Dublin a few weeks later though. 

Soon come again hopefully. ✊


----------



## Numbers (May 28, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Is the exhibition good? I went to the Clash one and it was good but tiny and packed.


I got the same feeling as The Clash one, small but good.  Thankfully it was only us so had time/space to read everything, live DJ (+ selling records) dropping some serious bass too.


----------



## Numbers (May 28, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Yes 8th Feb 2020 on the photo. Last time my parents were over here. We did pop over to Dublin a few weeks later though.
> 
> Soon come again hopefully. ✊


Looking at my photos I was there on Feb 11th.


----------



## spitfire (May 28, 2021)

Numbers said:


> I got the same feeling as The Clash one, small but good.  Thankfully it was only us so had time/space to read everything, live DJ (+ selling records) dropping some serious bass too.



Cool cheers. Reckon I’ll swing by and hope to catch it quiet. Bit easier nowadays I suppose...


----------



## Numbers (May 28, 2021)

There was space for this beauty.


----------



## Numbers (May 28, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Cool cheers. Reckon I’ll swing by and hope to catch it quiet. Bit easier nowadays I suppose...


We booked the 10:15am slot and there was nobody else in the exhibition besides us and the DJ.


----------



## hash tag (May 28, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> well as long as it's different from your last turn out. still angry about it.


Your ok, it didn't happen. I tried to book dishoom for breakfast tomorrow, they are all fully booked. Tomorrow, there will be no full English, it will be much cheaper than last week yet in a way, poncier.


----------



## hash tag (May 29, 2021)




----------



## davesgcr (May 29, 2021)

We went to London on Tuesday to see the Cartoon Museum (thanks hash tag for the reccomendation - enjoyed it immensely) - and did a good walk all the way from St Pancras and back via Soho and my old stamping ground of Bloomsbury , but the one thing that nailed it was the Elton John piano at St Pancras back in service and the musical tones lifting up to the splendid roof and to the no doubt pleasure of the John Betjemann statue. 

Life , slowly returns.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 29, 2021)

Was in Camden last night. Great to see the usual tribes, goths, ravers, rude boys, casuals, mods milling about.


----------



## Winot (May 29, 2021)

Tate Modern not exactly buzzing at 6pm tonight.


----------



## hash tag (May 30, 2021)

Interestingly, as we were coming to the end of our day yesterday, lots of young people were coming out. 
They are the ones who probably who have not yet had their vaccine and currently most at risk from catching the
virus. I guess they are also low risk from ending up very ill with it.


----------



## RubyToogood (May 30, 2021)

Winot said:


> Tate Modern not exactly buzzing at 6pm tonight.


Would it ordinarily be buzzing at 6pm?


----------



## Winot (May 30, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> Would it ordinarily be buzzing at 6pm?


Well in normal times it’s open to 10pm on Saturdays, so probably yes.


----------



## marty21 (May 30, 2021)

I have left the unlockening of London to see my mum for the 1st time since August 😀😎


----------



## hash tag (May 30, 2021)

This was by borough market yesterday midday


----------



## LeytonCatLady (May 30, 2021)

Piccadilly Line, travelling from Kings Cross to Turnpike Lane. Apart from the masks, it looks like a typical Sunday afternoon pre-Covid!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 30, 2021)

Winot said:


> Well in normal times it’s open to 10pm on Saturdays, so probably yes.


Not at 6pm it wouldn't. It's a vast building and people don't hang around there late into the evening. During the day the turbine hall has a reasonable number of people but it's school trips, people with kids, tourists and so on - they leave well before 6.


----------



## Winot (May 30, 2021)

OK! I stand corrected!


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 30, 2021)

Liverpool St area and Shoreditch has been pretty much standard Saturday (and bank holiday Sunday) at 5 or 6 the last few weeks. Certainly some effects but still quiet lively.

Tubes marginally quieter once you leave the station. 

I’m still very uncomfortable around people so it is a stress walking around the city.


----------



## teuchter (May 30, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not at 6pm it wouldn't. It's a vast building and people don't hang around there late into the evening. During the day the turbine hall has a reasonable number of people but it's school trips, people with kids, tourists and so on - they leave well before 6.


I've been there in the evenings when it's been fairly busy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 30, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I've been there in the evenings when it's been fairly busy.


Well, that's lovely, and I hope you enjoyed it.


----------



## NoXion (May 31, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Piccadilly Line, travelling from Kings Cross to Turnpike Lane. Apart from the masks, it looks like a typical Sunday afternoon pre-Covid!View attachment 271008



I was on the Piccadilly Line on my way back home on Sunday afternoon. Most of Zone 1 was packed.


----------



## Sue (May 31, 2021)

I walked through Dalston last night about 10:30 and it seemed much quieter than usual.


----------



## Cerv (May 31, 2021)

Went to the cinema tonight. 
Was the lone audience member. Which I suppose was great for social distancing but can’t be helping them make up for the lost year of sales.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 1, 2021)

Cerv said:


> Went to the cinema tonight.
> Was the lone audience member. Which I suppose was great for social distancing but can’t be helping them make up for the lost year of sales.


What did you see?


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jun 1, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> What did you see?


A lot of empty seats, it appears


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 1, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> A lot of empty seats, it appears


Nothing on rotten tomatoes


----------



## Cerv (Jun 1, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> What did you see?


First Cow

Was pretty good actually. 
2 hour musing on what friendship means. Setting is Oklahoma around the time the first colonial settlers are moving in, which is a bit different from most Westerns (or at least the one's I've seen).


----------



## pbsmooth (Jun 1, 2021)

first weekend of hot weather since unlockening I doubt many people thought of going into central for a museum!
parks were busy and by the river on my experience


----------



## teuchter (Jun 1, 2021)

We're just going to use the term 'central' as if there's nothing wrong with doing that now, are we?


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> We're just going to use the term 'central' as if there's nothing wrong with doing that now, are we?


This needs another one of your threads


----------



## hash tag (Jun 1, 2021)

Several of the major museums are in Sth Ken with a post code of SW7, so not central


----------



## Edie (Jun 1, 2021)

I visited London this weekend from Leeds. There was a markedly relaxed attitude to mask wearing inside shops, bars and on trains!


----------



## teuchter (Jun 1, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Several of the major museums are in Sth Ken with a post code of SW7, so not central


Maybe crojoe meant central South Kensington. Who knows! Who needs nouns anyway.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 1, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Several of the major museums are in Sth Ken with a post code of SW7, so not central



Postcodes, pah. Unless you're sending a letter they're irrelevant. Kensington is part of that bit in the middle of London filled with touristy bits, where nobody can afford to live. That bit's all central London as far as this out-of-towner is concerned.


----------



## marty21 (Jun 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> We're just going to use the term 'central' as if there's nothing wrong with doing that now, are we?


Is central just Zone 1 or do us Zone 2s get a look in ? Or can we say we are going up West?


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 1, 2021)

Has to be zone 1.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jun 1, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Postcodes, pah. Unless you're sending a letter they're irrelevant. Kensington is part of that bit in the middle of London filled with touristy bits, where nobody can afford to live. That bit's all central London as far as this out-of-towner is concerned.



exactly! anywhere in zone 1 is definitely Central London.
it's on wikipedia and everything ;-) Central London - Wikipedia


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 1, 2021)

It must be typical London arrogance to assume people will know you mean London


----------



## kabbes (Jun 1, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> It must be typical London arrogance to assume people will know you mean London


In a thread about London?


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> In a thread about London?


Exactly, there so arrogant they even want their own thread


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 5, 2021)

6 Rando’s within 2 metres with noses out and masks on taking up the middle of a central line carriage, no spacing.

Fairly sure 3 knew each other but for fucks sake the mask covers nose and mouth you cretins


----------



## marty21 (Jun 5, 2021)

Had a walk around the Olympics this afternoon , very busy there , the busiest I have seen it since Lockdown,  I have probably been there a couple of times a month since Lockdown 1.


----------



## ash (Jun 5, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Had a walk around the Olympics this afternoon , very busy there , the busiest I have seen it since Lockdown,  I have probably been there a couple of times a month since Lockdown 1.


 
Brixton was heaving today and only about 50% mask wearing in M&S and the market shops


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2021)

Lovely walk from Hayes to hamsey green, very few people about


----------



## Me76 (Jun 5, 2021)

I did Liverpool Street to Balham on the tube yesterday at 6pm.  Was just like normal time for business, although mask wearing was good.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jun 13, 2021)

The Sardine line this afternoon from Tottenham Court Road to Bethnal Green. Same as ever.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 13, 2021)

I was on the central yesterday - quiet at 10am, rammed when I went back around 1 from Liverpool Street. Full of people shopping and Essex kids coming in to go to the West End. I mean basically like the previous normal - less a question of trying to avoid distancing, more of just trying to get in the bloody carriage at all.

I was lucky though, I spotted an empty row of seats where somebody had sparked out and was lying across all of them apart from one, so everyone was staying away. I sat at the foot end on the basis that it wasn't like her feet were going to be lethal or anything. Then she woke up, pulled herself together onto one seat, and went to sleep again. Cheers random woman on the tube


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 13, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> The Sardine line this afternoon from Tottenham Court Road to Bethnal Green. Same as ever.View attachment 273311



Warp speed?


----------



## pbsmooth (Jun 13, 2021)

Day trippers have definitely returned, South Bank, Borough Market and round London Bridge was busy as normal


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 13, 2021)

A lot of people in the East End then btw. Similar level to a normal Saturday I'd say, Sunday is always the big day. I was out for a photo walk with some folk, meeting up early, but people were setting up just like normal - stalls, dancers, etc, waiting for tourists.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 13, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A lot of people in the East End then btw. Similar level to a normal Saturday I'd say, Sunday is always the big day. I was out for a photo walk with some folk, meeting up early, but people were setting up just like normal - stalls, dancers, etc, waiting for tourists.



Shoreditch and Liverpool Street gave been heaving for few weeks now, probably getting on over a month


----------



## hash tag (Jun 17, 2021)

Some tourist hotspots, midday today


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 17, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Some tourist hotspots, midday today
> View attachment 273945View attachment 273946View attachment 273947View attachment 273948



That's not really in the spirit of the thread is it? It's meant to be 'look there are people, we're all doomed!'


----------



## Numbers (Jun 17, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's not really in the spirit of the thread is it? It's meant to be 'look there are people, we're all doomed!'


I’m quite surprised it looks so quiet.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 17, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's not really in the spirit of the thread is it? It's meant to be 'look there are people, we're all doomed!'


Showing how empty and sad it still is in places which are normally overrun with hoardes of people.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 17, 2021)

Numbers said:


> I’m quite surprised it looks so quiet.


The wet stuff falling out of the sky tends to discourage people.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 17, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Showing how empty and sad it still is in places which are normally overrun with hoardes of people.



That's more like it.  Hordes of people and anywhere there is people actually inside must be described as rammed.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 17, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Showing how empty and sad it still is in places which are normally overrun with hoardes of people.



Bliss


----------



## hash tag (Jun 17, 2021)

Museums, galleries, shops etc. Must be easy for getting around, but there is a huge drop in trade. If ever there was a time for a staycation in London.....


----------



## RubyToogood (Jun 17, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Museums, galleries, shops etc. Must be easy for getting around, but there is a huge drop in trade. If ever there was a time for a staycation in London.....


Good point. I am off in a couple of weeks.


----------



## marty21 (Jun 18, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Museums, galleries, shops etc. Must be easy for getting around, but there is a huge drop in trade. If ever there was a time for a staycation in London.....


Went to my 1st Art exhibition in about 18 months this afternoon, Jean Dubuffet , at the Barbican . I'd never heard of him tbf (mrs21 suggested it) . It wasn't very busy , so wasn't as annoying inside as you didn't have to wait long to have a look. The cafe downstairs was annoying,  picked up a sandwich, crisps & a can of pop, took them to the till. As I was not taking away, I had to order from the app, so eventually got the items I'd picked up, about 15 minutes later , except for the crisps as I couldn't be arsed.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 6, 2021)

Just booked a trip to London - train tickets were only an extra £9 for first class so have booked that on the hope of more space and less people close to me.

Will do a museum or two and see some friends. Not sure I can dodge the tube though.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2021)

Yesterday I went into town - and for the first time since 2019 headed to the cheapo barber in Soho that I've used for going on 20 years. Got there to find it closed and the unit stripped out.


----------



## Numbers (Jul 6, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Just booked a trip to London - train tickets were only an extra £9 for first class so have booked that on the hope of more space and less people close to me.
> 
> Will do a museum or two and see some friends. Not sure I can dodge the tube though.


The tube hasn't been too bad IME.  I've been going in to work 1 day a week and I'm on a busy section of the line normally, but it's not been too bad.

Hope you have a good visit.


----------



## Sue (Jul 6, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Yesterday I went into town - and for the first time since 2019 headed to the cheapo barber in Soho that I've used for going on 20 years. Got there to find it closed and the unit stripped out.


I was in Soho yesterday too for the first time since lockdown. Seemed to be a lot of closed down shops and cafes.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 6, 2021)

Numbers said:


> The tube hasn't been too bad IME.  I've been going in to work 1 day a week and I'm on a busy section of the line normally, but it's not been too bad.
> 
> Hope you have a good visit.


Thanks - that’s reassuring.


----------



## Teaboy (Jul 6, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Thanks - that’s reassuring.



The end carriages are nearly always much quieter than the middle carriages so it usually pays to walk to one end of the platform (there are exceptions with certain stations) and they are frequent enough that if it looks too busy just wait for the next train.  

This is what I did before covid anyway and certainly do now.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2021)

Don't forget the Tfl bike hire option as a genuinely covid-safe way to get around the parts of London that it covers. In central London often quicker than the tube anyway, and at the moment roads inside the congestion charge zone are mostly a lot quieter than usual.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 6, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Don't forget the Tfl bike hire option as a genuinely covid-safe way to get around the parts of London that it covers. In central London often quicker than the tube anyway, and at the moment roads inside the congestion charge zone are mostly a lot quieter than usual.


Not going to work for me given where I need to go. Good idea though.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 6, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Just booked a trip to London - train tickets were only an extra £9 for first class so have booked that on the hope of more space and less people close to me.
> 
> Will do a museum or two and see some friends. Not sure I can dodge the tube though.


Enjoy. I've found it pretty empty around the places I have been to. 
As a local, I rarely ever use the tube. I would normally walk or use buses.  You can use this and tell it avoid tube if you want to Keeping London moving


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2021)

Mask count on my (not very busy) overground carriage just now: yes, 5; no, 4.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 12, 2021)

Oxford Street and Cambridge Circus midday ish today


----------



## marty21 (Jul 12, 2021)

I was in Kings Cross this morning , apart from a few depressed England fans heading back up north , it was fairly quiet outside the station.


----------



## wtfftw (Jul 12, 2021)

2pm Sunday.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 12, 2021)

hash tag said:


> View attachment 278294View attachment 278295
> Oxford Street and Cambridge Circus midday ish today


Used to go there to Sportspages all the time in late 90s. Was always mobbed. Can’t believe it’s that deadly quiet.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 12, 2021)

We walked right past where sports pages used to be and said how we missed it. The art shops are getting priced out of the area. All the tech shops in Tottenham Court Road where you negotiated your own price have all gone. Even the decent end of Oxford Street is being filled with shitty tourist shops now


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 12, 2021)

hash tag said:


> All the tech shops in Tottenham Court Road where you negotiated your own price have all gone.


They've been on their way out for a while, there were only a couple left even pre-pandemic. The internet killed them. It's just like any other street now 

The best place I know these days of is Queensway Market (Home) which is seriously like something out of a cyberpunk novel. The people on the stalls there know their shit.


----------



## marty21 (Jul 12, 2021)

hash tag said:


> We walked right past where sports pages used to be and said how we missed it. The art shops are getting priced out of the area. All the tech shops in Tottenham Court Road where you negotiated your own price have all gone. Even the decent end of Oxford Street is being filled with shitty tourist shops now


A friend of mine bought an expensive stereo from one of those shops about 20 odd years ago, he brought about a grand in cash in preparation for the #haggle - showed them his wad, bought the thing - took it home - and realised he still had the cash in his shirt pocket


----------



## hash tag (Jul 12, 2021)

Oxford Street at 14:30 .


----------



## Sue (Jul 12, 2021)

Got a bus earlier for the first time in a while. Half the top deck was maskless -- apart from one woman, all men. Definitely much worse than the last time I was on a bus.


----------



## klang (Jul 12, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The best place I know these days of is Queensway Market


it's wicked. and so strange that it is where it is.
there used to be a Brazilian restaurant upstairs where you paid by weight.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> Got a bus earlier for the first time in a while. Half the top deck was maskless -- apart from one woman, all men. Definitely much worse than the last time I was on a bus.



I was hoping to get a bus from Waterloo to Wood Green to avoid the tube next week but I’m not sure I feel comfortable now. Maybe an Uber is best but that’s so expensive


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 12, 2021)

littleseb said:


> it's wicked. and so strange that it is where it is.
> there used to be a Brazilian restaurant upstairs where you paid by weight.


"I would like to get the screen replaced on my Macbook, and while I wait I think I may get my nails done and also have tea from a samovar"


----------



## teuchter (Jul 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I was hoping to get a bus from Waterloo to Wood Green to avoid the tube next week but I’m not sure I feel comfortable now. Maybe an Uber is best but that’s so expensive


I don't think there's a reason to assume bus is better than tube. They possibly achieve similar rates of ventilation and tube is usually a lot faster which means you'll be sat on it for less time for a given length of journey.


----------



## klang (Jul 12, 2021)

avoiding rush hour you'll probably ok on the tube.


----------



## Sue (Jul 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I was hoping to get a bus from Waterloo to Wood Green to avoid the tube next week but I’m not sure I feel comfortable now. Maybe an Uber is best but that’s so expensive


The 243? The bus I was on is on part of that route. It may depend on the time of day (this was about 630).


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> The 243? The bus I was on is on part of that route. It may depend on the time of day (this was about 630).


Yes that’s the one. It is likely to be around the evening peak unfortunately.


----------



## klang (Jul 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Yes that’s the one. It is likely to be around the evening peak unfortunately.


that'll take hours.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> tube is usually a lot faster which means you'll be sat on it for less time for a given length of journey


This is my general method of risk estimation off peak - ventilation is poor on both so spend the least time possible travelling.

Tube can be much more packed on-peak though.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 12, 2021)

I may have to take the tube then. It may be normal for Londoners now due to taking it every day but it fills me with apprehension. I assumed I could have the windows open on bus and it wouldn’t be crowded but perhaps I’m being naive 

thank you all, appreciate your honesty


----------



## klang (Jul 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I may have to take the tube then. It may be normal for Londoners now due to taking it every day but it fills me with apprehension. I assumed I could have the windows open on bus and it wouldn’t be crowded but perhaps I’m being naive
> 
> thank you all, appreciate your honesty


at least you'll end up in Wood Green which is wicked.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 12, 2021)

I am sure it’s become wickeder still now that my friend has moved there!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2021)

littleseb said:


> at least you'll end up in Wood Green which is wicked.


It is home to London's ugliest town hall


----------



## wtfftw (Jul 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I may have to take the tube then. It may be normal for Londoners now due to taking it every day but it fills me with apprehension. I assumed I could have the windows open on bus and it wouldn’t be crowded but perhaps I’m being naive
> 
> thank you all, appreciate your honesty


If you'd feel more comfortable above ground you could get a train from Blackfriars to Finsbury park I think then it's a shorter tube or bus up.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 12, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> If you'd feel more comfortable above ground you could get a train from Blackfriars to Finsbury park I think then it's a shorter tube or bus up.



Blackfriars has lovely views of London


----------



## oryx (Jul 12, 2021)

We went to Oxford Street the week before last for an afternoon's shopping and it was absolutely hopping! We walked back to the station via Soho and that was packed. The train and tube were a bit quieter than usual, and so was the pub we went in.

I felt there was fairly good compliance with mask-wearing on the tube.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 13, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I may have to take the tube then. It may be normal for Londoners now due to taking it every day but it fills me with apprehension. I assumed I could have the windows open on bus and it wouldn’t be crowded but perhaps I’m being naive



fairly sure that london buses all have open-able windows

tube tends to have windows at the end of each carriage that let air through

this suggests about 90 minutes from waterloo to wood green on the 243 at peak times



wtfftw said:


> If you'd feel more comfortable above ground you could get a train from Blackfriars to Finsbury park I think then it's a shorter tube or bus up.



yes, was going to suggest that.

blackfriars station has an entrance on the south bank now so not that far from waterloo (although may be further than you're comfortable walking at the moment - alternative might be waterloo east - london bridge and pick up the thameslink there, although to be honest it's a fair trek from waterloo main to waterloo east.)

or stay on the thameslink to alexandra palace station (think you would have to change at finsbury park, but still on the thameslink / great northern bit) then either walk or W3 bus for a few stops down the road?

aware you're outside london, take it you know that buses in london don't accept cash payments - you need either oyster card or contactless payment card now?  (some people still get caught out by this)


----------



## Sue (Jul 13, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> fairly sure that london buses all have open-able windows
> 
> tube tends to have windows at the end of each carriage that let air through
> 
> ...


Yeah, they do. But it was absolutely chucking it down with rain so the windows were closed. (Also why I was getting the bus. Normally I'd have walked but it was really, really wet.)


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 13, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> fairly sure that london buses all have open-able windows
> 
> tube tends to have windows at the end of each carriage that let air through
> 
> ...


Thanks very informative. Beaucoup options!

Living in Reading for 20 years I never had an Oyster card or understood what it was properly for many years as I had to buy a paper ticket to get into London. By the time I actually knew what it was I had a contactless card anyway.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 13, 2021)

I have not been on the tube for a couple of years; I dislike it at the nest of times as I find it hot, stuffy and poorly ventilated.
Bus or train every time for me (or walking). On my travels around town yesterday it was not bad at all, not even on the bus,
in the sheeting rain from Oxford Street to Victoria at peak times.


----------



## hash tag (Jul 13, 2021)

I am guessing, but reckon our direct train from Clapham Junction to Bletchley is a little more crowded than usual because a lot of people have been diverted on to this as there are problems with the overground today. Our train stops at a few of the overground stations.
NB I have just heard announcements to say there is also tube disruption and closures caused by yesterday's flooding.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I have not been on the tube for a couple of years; I dislike it at the nest of times as I find it hot, stuffy and poorly ventilated.
> Bus or train every time for me (or walking). On my travels around town yesterday it was not bad at all, not even on the bus,
> in the sheeting rain from Oxford Street to Victoria at peak times.


it's always nice to be on the bus in the sheeting rain

beats being out in the sheeting rain


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> fairly sure that london buses all have open-able windows
> 
> tube tends to have windows at the end of each carriage that let air through


there are of course upsides and downsides to air circulating on public transport in the middle of a pandemic in which airborne particles can spread the virus: tho the velocity at which the air moves in moving tube trains is probably on that front safer than the more sedate pace at which it would move on buses.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Jul 13, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> If you'd feel more comfortable above ground you could get a train from Blackfriars to Finsbury park I think then it's a shorter tube or bus



Depending which bit of Wood Green, you could even get the train all the way up to Alexandra Palace or Bowes Park (possibly change train at Finsbury Park but it's the same platform)


----------



## hash tag (Jul 17, 2021)

Oh dear 
BBC News - Covid: London's Metropolitan Line closed after staff pinged by NHS app








						Covid: London's Metropolitan Line closed after staff pinged by NHS app
					

Control room staff on the Metropolitan Line are isolating after being sent alerts by the NHS app.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 21, 2021)

travelled in from south london to central and then on the tube, pleased and mildly surprised to see most people still wearing masks. I'd still reckon around 50% capacity compared to normal, maybe a little higher. people standing but also not using all seats so a bit tricky to tell. police at london bridge, wonder if they're there to enforce masks? were spread out around turnstiles but may have been coincidence.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 23, 2021)

I'd say there is a higher percentage of punters than staff wearing masks on the tube


----------



## Me76 (Jul 23, 2021)

Went into the office today and the 8.38 train was 9 mins late, not completely full and almost all wearing masks and trying to give distance where they could.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 23, 2021)

Me76 said:


> Went into the office today and the 8.38 train was 9 mins late, not completely full and almost all wearing masks and trying to give distance where they could.


Reginald Perrin leapt to mind with your late train


----------



## davesgcr (Jul 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Reginald Perrin leapt to mind with your late train



It should have been 11 mins late to paraphrase the book. 

"Badgers chewed signal cables , fog Clapham Junction etc.."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 23, 2021)

davesgcr said:


> It should have been 11 mins late to paraphrase the book.
> 
> "Badgers chewed signal cables , fog Clapham Junction etc.."


Badgers is always chewing signal cables


----------



## marty21 (Jul 24, 2021)

It was lovely ordering a pint at the bar yesterday 😀 (Jolly Butchers, Stoke Newington)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2021)

marty21 said:


> It was lovely ordering a pint at the bar yesterday 😀 (Jolly Butchers, Stoke Newington)


Just the one?


----------



## Sue (Jul 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Just the one?


marty21 is an abstemious type.


----------



## marty21 (Jul 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Just the one?


Followed up with another one for dessert


----------



## marty21 (Jul 24, 2021)

Sue said:


> marty21 is an abstemious type.


🤔😁


----------



## marty21 (Jul 27, 2021)

Train was busy from Clapton to Liverpool St at 9.15 this morning , tube to Kings Cross was also busy .


----------



## hash tag (Jul 28, 2021)

Still very few overseas tourists and being busy is a sign that things might be getting back to normal.
Both come with mixed blessings.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2021)

Today I have spied, for the first time "this wave" a patch of green reappearing in London. Chelsea.






			https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/cases


----------



## hash tag (Jul 28, 2021)

Oh what can it mean? (no context)


----------



## clicker (Jul 29, 2021)

The flower show.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2021)

https://ra.co/features/3871?
		


I remember naively thinking at the start of all this, that the first weekend out after everything was over, it was all safe again and clubs reopened, would be fun times.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 2, 2021)

A few more specks of green appearing, and things looking less purple in general.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 3, 2021)

I'm in Kings Cross again,  the number of people having their lunch or lounging around Pancras Square is at pre lockdown numbers.


----------



## zora (Aug 3, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I'm in Kings Cross again,  the number of people having their lunch or lounging around Pancras Square is at pre lockdown numbers.


Sadface.  That's sad face not so much as in "oh god, I worry what this will do to covid numbers", but sad face as in "I have so been enjoying empty London and don't want it to go back to normal"


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2021)

I've enjoyed empty London as a bit of a novelty but I want it to go back to normal and be full of people and stuff happening again. That's the whole point of London.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 3, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I've enjoyed empty London as a bit of a novelty but I want it to go back to normal and be full of people and stuff happening again. That's the whole point of London.


When I went into the office briefly a few weeks back, Victoria Street was pretty busy. And there were long queues for the checkout in Zara  That was a Friday, so I'd imagine midweek would be significantly busier, if not at normal levels.


----------



## pbsmooth (Aug 3, 2021)

still not many tourists so it's manageable busy at peak times rather than crazy busy. I'm happy with either!


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2021)

My regular commute train reduced to one an hour so forced on the tube ...meanwhile on the tube


----------



## marty21 (Aug 3, 2021)

zora said:


> Sadface.  That's sad face not so much as in "oh god, I worry what this will do to covid numbers", but sad face as in "I have so been enjoying empty London and don't want it to go back to normal"


It was a bit of a shock tbf , I'm in that square a lot in normal times , during the pandemic I've been there maybe a couple of times a month, it was generally empty .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

zora said:


> Sadface.  That's sad face not so much as in "oh god, I worry what this will do to covid numbers", but sad face as in "I have so been enjoying empty London and don't want it to go back to normal"


Yeh I quite fancy another lockdown, don't want to go back to normal either. Perhaps an unpopular view. But there you go.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 3, 2021)

I went up into town today and visited the Photographers' Gallery and everything was... actually really quite high population for a random Tuesday. A lot of tourists though I'm not sure where they were from.

I'd had the intention of going to a food place to test my resolve in terms of eating indoors but they're all small in that area and they were all pretty full and I'd feel like a dick if I got the 'rona from eating at Pret. That seems like a really poor cost/benefit deal.

Instead I got some sushi and ate it in the gardens near Embankment, but I had to pretty much hit a duck in the face with my chopsticks to stop it stealing some, which is new.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 3, 2021)

I don’t know if this is the thread for this, but talking about trains: SouthWestern are “consulting” on halving their number of trains for many routes (including the one through Epsom and Dorking) from 2022.  To put it in context, that means they are proposing to run a single train an hour to Dorking, which is a pretty major terminus.

Their justification for doing this is that during lockdown, they’ve actually, for the first time, managed to hit their arrival-on-time performance targets as a result of only running half as many trains.  So by being shit on the most important metric, they can be less shit on a lesser metric.  This they are then selling as a sign of them being a well-run company.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I don’t know if this is the thread for this, but talking about trains: SouthWestern are “consulting” on having their number if trains for many routes (including the one through Epsom and Dorking) from 2022.  To put it in context, that means they are proposing to run a single train an hour to Dorking, which is a pretty major terminus.
> 
> Their justification for doing this is that during lockdown, they’ve actually, for the first time, managed to hit their arrival-on-time performance targets as a result of only running half as many trains.  So by being shit on the most important metric, they can be less shit on a lesser metric.  This they are then selling as a sign of them being a well-run company.



The whole "nobody ever needs trains again now we work from home" discussions that have taken place thanks to Covid are especially shit. Sad to see it's escaped from anti-HS2 protesters to management consultants


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2021)

There's loads of peak commuter services into London where passenger numbers could drop by a half and the trains would still be running "full". We've got used to the idea that trains routinely crammed over capacity are normal and ok.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 13, 2021)

I got on a bus. Nobody was wearing a mask. Somebody sneezed. I got off.


----------



## thismoment (Aug 13, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> I got on a bus. Nobody was wearing a mask. Somebody sneezed. I got off.


Nobody! Was it busy? I wonder if it was fairly empty and people thought it doesn’t matter if they’re not many people. That’s awful, it’s still a legal requirement on buses isn’t it? I feel for the bus driver, I bet they’ve given up attempting to remind people.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 14, 2021)

thismoment said:


> Nobody! Was it busy? I wonder if it was fairly empty and people thought it doesn’t matter if they’re not many people. That’s awful, it’s still a legal requirement on buses isn’t it? I feel for the bus driver, I bet they’ve given up attempting to remind people.


I think it's a condition of use rather than a legal requirement. If you look at TfL's Twitter, people complaining about lack of enforcement is a running theme.

It wasn't full as it was the middle of the day, but full enough that you're near people. And there were a few wearing masks, it's true.

I generally get around on two wheels but can't now as I've got a broken wrist. I was hoping I'd be able to go swimming regularly by bus soon but it was really disheartening   I don't want covid on top of everything else.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 14, 2021)

Majority of tube and bus workers don't wear masks these days it seams


----------



## pbsmooth (Aug 14, 2021)

i think it's still 90% ish people on the tube and train from my experience. but I am sure it will tail off as people get used to no longer having to wear them elsewhere.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 14, 2021)

IC3D said:


> Majority of tube and bus workers don't wear masks these days it seams


Bus drivers I think don't have to because they are sealed off from the public now.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 16, 2021)

Busy enough here ( don't ask ) for a Monday


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 18, 2021)

Had to the train into the city today for work reasons.  I thought I'd be smart and leave late morning to avoid the commuter services.  I completly forgot its school summer holidays.  The trains were rammed with hordes of unmasked plague rats.

Oh well.  I've had a good run and you have to die of something sooner or later.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 18, 2021)

I've caught the bus a few more times now and mask wearing is consistently between 40-60% in this neck of the burbs.


----------



## stdP (Aug 18, 2021)

I don't know if it was just a "today" thing, but in Covent Garden the entire planet either seemed to be buying clothes or queueing up for theatre tickets. There was a queue at least a hundred people long outside either the Adelphi or the Vaudeville and at least fifty outside the Lyceum.

Mask wearing, even amongst the kids, remains pretty high on public transport - 85% plus on the trains and at least 95% on the tube (not been on a bus for yonks). The rush hour vicky line today was barely any different from the beforetimes crowd-wise, with the exception of a bunch of people not knowing backpack, bag, barrier or bescalator etiquette (they can't all have been tourists!).


----------



## stdP (Aug 20, 2021)

Posting after myself which is bad form, but hey.

A bunch of my colleagues (including two new guys whom we've only seen in person a couple of times) all happened to be in the offices yesterday for various reason and so we ended up going out for impromptu drinks in Fitzrovia - everyone's been jabbed, it was a nice evening and, frankly, we'd had a hard day (problems with the remote working setup ironically enough) and fancied an unwind. Frankly it was like the pandemic hadn't even happened - we were all stood out in the street (but that's pretty normal for the area anyway) along with about a hundred or so other people at the peak, and about another thirty or so inside, and the alcohol and conversation flowed freely. The only real change was some of the staff wearing masks and lots of hand sanitiser sloshing around for wiping things down (thankfully no plastic cups). Groups of people on the street would try and remain apart from one another but, presumably due to licensing restrictions, they had a member of staff getting everyone to bunch up next to the pub instead of remaining spread out. All of the other pubs we passed by seemed to have the exact same sort of arrangement.

The pub wasn't as busy as it had been previously of course (usually in Fitzrovia in august you can't heave a brick without spilling Tarquin's pint), but going up to the bar and frantically trying to remember everyone's drinks to get a round in is one of life's simple pleasures that I'm happy to return to.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 20, 2021)

I would be very pushed to suggest something that's different in London now vs before the pandemic. The only part that feels at all different is the tube, and even that's going downhill - nothing would ever happen to you if you didn't wear a mask, it was all social inertia, and now that's disappearing fast.


----------



## pbsmooth (Aug 20, 2021)

Still far fewer tourists, so it's definitely less busy in certain areas.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 26, 2021)

Things are feeling fairly unlockened at Paddington.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 26, 2021)

I had a wander around Coal Drops Yard this morning , all the shops and restaurants were open , hardly anyone was there.  Strangely, Granary Square close by was pretty busy.


----------



## spitfire (Aug 26, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I had a wander around Coal Drops Yard this morning , all the shops and restaurants were open , hardly anyone was there.  Strangely Granary Square close by was pretty busy.



It’s always been that way whenever I’ve been there. Pandemic or no. Coal drops yard is always empty. Loads of expensive tat that no one wants.

Apart from the Japanese knife shop. That’s cool.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 26, 2021)

It has people on weekends when the sun is out. Not all that many people mind.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 26, 2021)

Coal Drop Yard is just a fake area to pretend that the overpriced-even-for-London property there has a local ecosystem, and maybe to give the Google staff somewhere to go except I doubt they ever do because Google provides all their needs. It's as real as the shops in Canary Wharf.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2021)

My ceramics studio tends to do events in Coal Drops Yard but that just proves it's a super gentrified location.

Does the odd event market I'd like to visit if I was in the area to.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> My ceramics studio tends to do events in Coal Drops Yard but that just proves it's a super gentrified location.
> 
> Does the odd event market I'd like to visit if I was in the area to.


I've been to a couple of art events there. Perfectly reasonable place to have one: easy to get to and they _want_ real people to come do stuff there to try to prove the venue is real.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 26, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I've been to a couple of art events there. Perfectly reasonable place to have one: easy to get to and they _want_ real people to come do stuff there to try to prove the venue is real.


Central St Martin's, which is part of London College of Fashion is up there, so perfect for art events.


----------



## Sue (Aug 26, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I had a wander around Coal Drops Yard this morning , all the shops and restaurants were open , hardly anyone was there.  Strangely, Granary Square close by was pretty busy.


I cut through Granary Square last night and it was pretty busy. OTOH, Kings X seemed very very quiet, given it was 630 on a work day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Central St Martin's, which is part of London College of Fashion is up there, so perfect for art events.


St Martin's part of the university of the arts.
The London college of fashion is part of the university of the arts 
St Martin's is not part of the lcf


----------



## hash tag (Sep 14, 2021)

It's 09.15. have been on this bus into central London for 10 minutes +


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2021)

hash tag said:


> It's 09.15. have been on this bus into central London for 10 minutes + View attachment 288278


anecdotes dont work - this was the view on the Victoria line for me a couple of weeks back

am doing everything to avoid the tube now


----------



## teuchter (Sep 14, 2021)

I was on the Jubilee line at the weekend and it was like that ^^


----------



## hash tag (Sep 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> anecdotes dont work - this was the view on the Victoria line for me a couple of weeks back
> 
> am doing everything to avoid the tube now
> View attachment 288285


The 38, victoria to Soho was not busy either


----------



## nagapie (Sep 14, 2021)

My local buses are very full.


----------



## Sue (Sep 19, 2021)

Interesting, if depressing.









						To mask or not to mask? Opinion split on London underground
					

Commuters explain their reasons for not covering up




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teuchter (Sep 20, 2021)

Compared to the last map I posted in early August - London looks not too bad, at least compared to other parts of the country. Almost all the purple gone.


----------



## Numbers (Sep 23, 2021)

Jubilee line this morning was busy but not as packed as I expected, all seats taken and some people standing, about 50% mask wearing.

Baker St and Marylebone were quite busy. 

The building I work in is still quite sparse but the other building, 2 of the floors are heaving. 

Saw my manager for the first time in 18 months.  We’re gong to the pub at lunchtime.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2021)

Numbers said:


> Saw my manager for the first time in 18 months.  We’re gong to the pub at lunchtime.


Good to see productivity up from a return to the office


----------



## hash tag (Sep 23, 2021)

On bus home yesterday over half the passengers were not wearing masks despite advice to do so 🙁


----------



## marty21 (Sep 23, 2021)

Sue said:


> Interesting, if depressing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw some mask enforcement at Liverpool St Station the other day , outside the Tube Station entrance , commuters were being asked to put on masks. 1st time in the pandemic that I've seen this sort of thing.


----------



## Sue (Sep 23, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I saw some mask enforcement at Liverpool St Station the other day , outside the Tube Station entrance , commuters were being asked to put on masks. 1st time in the pandemic that I've seen this sort of thing.


I've never seen that either but guess I've only really been on buses and it would be much more difficult to do than on the tube.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 14, 2021)

Yesterday evening, something vaguely resembling rush hour commuter crowds, which I haven't seen for a while.


----------



## Numbers (Oct 14, 2021)

Absolutely packed on the tube this morning, prob 50% not masked up.

Baker St/Marylebone like pre-pandemic.

The office is 70% full.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 14, 2021)

Thursday is a popular day to be in the office now so many people are mixing office and WFH. Monday and Friday, not so much.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 14, 2021)

Can see my dad’s old office in that pic. 



crojoe said:


> Thursday is a popular day to be in the office now so many people are mixing office and WFH. Monday and Friday, not so much.



Believe they’re called Twats - “Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday”


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 14, 2021)

ha! new one on me


----------



## kabbes (Oct 14, 2021)

Yeah, I was in today and it was quite busy. Thing is, if you’re going to go in, you want it to be on the day everybody else is also going in because otherwise, what’s the point?


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 14, 2021)

I know what you mean but I much prefer a quiet office to a busy office... middle ground in there somewhere


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 14, 2021)

Hm yeah I went back to my coworking place yesterday because there was a social thing and that's the point of going. But it was a bit tooo peopley so I might go back on a different day next time. Glorious to be back though.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 14, 2021)

We're supposed to be in 2 days a week . I go in 3 days because WFH is fairly depressing. I cross tower bridge b4 8AM and it's well busy as is the dual carriage way East Smithfield going into the City , full of construction trucks so yes traffic back to normal.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Can see my dad’s old office in that pic.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe they’re called Twats - “Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday”


so is Friday dead now?


----------



## Me76 (Oct 15, 2021)

We've just opened a new office (which is amazing) and Mondays and Fridays are dead.  Wednesday is our busiest day but that may be the way we structure our meetings.  

Train timetables for me are still rubbish, and the train I get in and home is busy but not standing room busy.  

It feels very much like before times though.  

Even though I had to put up with a woman shouting at me on the platform the other day for standing too close (I wasn't) and not wearing a mask (I don't on the open air platform but put it on when getting on the train) while her mask was hanging off one ear.


----------



## nagapie (Oct 16, 2021)

I'd say mask wearing is down to 30% in the parts of London I frequent. In fact Covid seems now to be just an excuse for unmasked people to be rude by putting their bags on the seat next to them on full public transport.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 16, 2021)

Yep definitely dropping. Not that surprising, i feel it myself. You can do so much now without a mask, i.e. Big indoor events, it then seems slightly weird to then put on a mask just because you're on a train.


----------



## prunus (Oct 16, 2021)

crojoe said:


> Yep definitely dropping. Not that surprising, i feel it myself. *You can do so much now without a mask*, i.e. Big indoor events, it then seems slightly weird to then put on a mask just because you're on a train.



You can go out in shit-stained trousers; it doesn’t mean that you should. 

(Not a dig at you you, you as in one).


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 17, 2021)

Not sure that's a particularly good comparison but I get where you're coming from.


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 17, 2021)

Wear masks except when eating and drinking


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 17, 2021)

crojoe said:


> Not sure that's a particularly good comparison but I get where you're coming from.



It's valid.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 17, 2021)

crojoe said:


> Yep definitely dropping. Not that surprising, i feel it myself. You can do so much now without a mask, i.e. Big indoor events, it then seems slightly weird to then put on a mask just because you're on a train



I agree theres little difference in the scenarios and you seem to be implying you are comfortable to not wear a mask in either, this isnt about what the rules are we all know they are bollox
My view is the opposite of yours and that we should wear them in both situations.


----------



## prunus (Oct 17, 2021)

crojoe said:


> Not sure that's a particularly good comparison but I get where you're coming from.



Fair!  But it was the best I could do at midnight on a Saturday night. Some wine might have been drunk.

The point is there are a lot of things that we do for societal benefit that are not actually mandated by law.

In this case (masks) it’s even official government advice that you wear them in crowded indoor situations (there is no equivalent advice regarding the cleanliness of your trousers that I’m aware of).

Why people are not doing it I am not entirely sure. I try not to attribute it to stupidity and selfishness. It is I hope more born of ignorance (of the true nature of the state of the pandemic and the effectiveness of mass mask wearing) and fear (of admitting the seriousness of the situation and of social awkwardness).

I blame the government in large part. They have not been communicating any of this (their own advice, the seriousness of the situation or the effectiveness of masks) - in fact in the most part talking heads on the tv etc convey the opposite message.

They are execrable. I only hope that we’re not in for the horrendous winter the current numbers are hinting at.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 17, 2021)

I think most people, or lots of people, think we're past the worst of it so are relaxing. It's only natural as the tone of govt and news has changed, talking about the pandemic in the past tense and about this return to normal, work, school etc. Right or wrong, that's my experience of what's happening. And as people do socialise and do more and more normal things, where masks aren't mandated/enforced, that will have a knock on effect on general mask wearing.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 20, 2021)

I wish it were still a requirement to wear a mask on public transport, it's not too much to ask, is it? 
BBC News - Covid-19: Thousands prosecuted over London transport mask rules








						Covid-19: Thousands prosecuted over London transport mask rules
					

More than 215,000 people have been prevented from using London transport unless they wear a mask.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## hash tag (Nov 15, 2021)

I went to the Hogarth at the Tate today. I wonder if editor agrees. The Tate was generally very empty and very unwelcoming and I wonder if it's down to it's ticket only policy. Is was great to wander round such an empty gallery, including the exhibition but most of the staff must have been there. They must be losing money hand over fist.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 15, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I went to the Hogarth at the Tate today. I wonder if editor agrees. The Tate was generally very empty and very unwelcoming and I wonder if it's down to it's ticket only policy. Is was great to wander round such an empty gallery, including the exhibition but most of the staff must have been there. They must be losing money hand over fist.


I've been to a couple of things at the Tate that were booking only, and they were both pretty busy. It might be more to do with it being a Monday?


----------



## Cloo (Nov 18, 2021)

I was at Rodin at Tate Modern on a Friday and it was pretty busy.  Weekend sessions were almost all sold out. I didn't find it unwelcoming but I guess quite a lot of weekday clientèle will be older people,  many of whom are still being cautious about going out 

I'm wondering how tube occupancy is doing now - I know it hopped up a lot in first week of September and I went into the office and to work events a couple of times in Sept/Oct but am essentially expecting not to do so again until spring. Wondering how many people are expecting to do same and if commuting has dropped, or if its just me.


----------



## thismoment (Nov 18, 2021)

My train and tube journey to work have returned to pre covid busyness, so odd! Particularly standing on the tube super close to others


----------



## Winot (Nov 18, 2021)

Apparently:


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Nov 18, 2021)

Winot said:


> Apparently:



"post-covid"? 
ye feckin idjeet


----------



## ash (Nov 18, 2021)

On the tube today a (masked) guy got on and carefully moved the newspaper on the seat next to me to the next seat and then sat down on the seat next to me. Strange behaviour I thought. Then I realised that the young bloke the other side of the 2 seats was  unmasked. He obviously preferred sitting next to me being masked.  I totally understand.  This did make me think about behaviour  and how fascinating it would be to observe and document this sort of stuff. People  are so polarised by the mask issue now -  I look at the unmasked and judge and they probably do the same to me.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 19, 2021)




----------



## Mation (Nov 20, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> "post-covid"?
> ye feckin idjeet


I read it as post-covid-onset, but if it wasn't that, yeah.


----------



## Me76 (Nov 21, 2021)

This Wednesday I went into the office and it was the busiest it had ever been.  A few people who I spoke to who did different routes said the same.  

I'm lucky I don't have to do the tube, but I do kind of take a bit of a fatalistic attitude to these things and I'm sure I'd get used to it again pretty quick.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 21, 2021)

I was around Liverpool St Station & Spitalfields Market today , it was super busy.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 21, 2021)

ash said:


> On the tube today a (masked) guy got on and carefully moved the newspaper on the seat next to me to the next seat and then sat down on the seat next to me. Strange behaviour I thought. Then I realised that the young bloke the other side of the 2 seats was  unmasked. He obviously preferred sitting next to me being masked.  I totally understand.  This did make me think about behaviour  and how fascinating it would be to observe and document this sort of stuff. People  are so polarised by the mask issue now -  I look at the unmasked and judge and they probably do the same to me.


I reckon there are some people who take a mask with them make a call depending on what other people in the carriage are doing, similarly in theatres etc, because they'd rather not wear them and can 'morally' justify it by others indicating their level of comfort with non-masking. For example, a woman the other day got on the tube without a mask (which she should have been wearing on the enclosed platform) and sat opposite us, both wearing masks, and then put one on. And I suspect she wouldn't have if we hadn't had them on. So I think some people are going 'Wellll, if everyone near me isn't wearing a mask they're obviously not bothered, so I don't have to worry about wearing one on their behalf, so I won't'.


----------



## pbsmooth (Nov 21, 2021)

That's just human nature.


----------



## wtfftw (Nov 22, 2021)

I find I'm forgetting. If people around me aren't wearing masks I don't have that visual reminder that it's a thing.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 24, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I find I'm forgetting. If people around me aren't wearing masks I don't have that visual reminder that it's a thing.


Interesting, yes, I'm sure there's a degree of that as well - the cues need to be there. Which is why having a 'Oh well we recommend you wear a mask' policy just isn't much good.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 26, 2021)

Thinking of coming into town, don't. Avoid it like the plague. The tourist spots are heaving again and the tube, at 15.00 is horrendous ( there is a strike on). You will be lucky to get on it.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 26, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Thinking of coming into town, don't. Avoid it like the plague. The tourist spots are heaving again and the tube, at 15.00 is horrendous ( there is a strike on). You will be lucky to get on it. View attachment 298261


I'm getting the Overground back to Hackney , not very crowded at all. I just wouldn't get on a tube like that, even in normal times.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 26, 2021)

Waterloo at about 16.00


----------



## May Kasahara (Nov 27, 2021)

London is indeed heaving, I've just been up to Covent Garden and it seemed even busier than usual  Lots of mask wearing though.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 27, 2021)

It's crap, isn't it.


----------



## May Kasahara (Nov 27, 2021)

Well, I was up there too so it's not like I don't understand the urge 🤷‍♀️


----------



## spitfire (Nov 27, 2021)

Shit’s getting real in the smoke.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Shit’s getting real in the smoke.



You have 20 seconds to comply


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Shit’s getting real in the smoke.



I suppose they are doing this in support to the civil authorities and I'd be interested to learn whether they have any actual authority to require you to do (or not do) something


----------



## spitfire (Nov 27, 2021)

Authority comes from the barrel of a gun in this case I think.


----------



## spitfire (Nov 27, 2021)

Must be hot on the central line in all that gear though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Authority comes from the barrel of a gun in this case I think.


No, that's political power


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Must be hot on the central line in all that gear though.


Good


----------



## hash tag (Nov 27, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Shit’s getting real in the smoke.



If I wanted to get on tube yesterday, I had to squeeze in, pushing and shoving, very unpleasant. Many didn't bother. Just horrible. I was squished in a corner facing the door which was my best position.


----------



## pbsmooth (Nov 27, 2021)

was it your first time in London?


----------



## Me76 (Nov 27, 2021)

The tube is back to normal times.  With I would say 40% mask wearing.   It will be interesting to see whether today's news make a change.


----------



## elbows (Nov 28, 2021)

Me76 said:


> The tube is back to normal times.  With I would say 40% mask wearing.   It will be interesting to see whether today's news make a change.


Apart from the strikes:









						Tube strikes set to disrupt first Night Tube services
					

Plans to reopen the Central and Victoria lines in the early hours will be disrupted.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> The service was due to resume on Saturday night but staff have walked out in a dispute over driver rotas.
> 
> A union says changes to rotas will ruin members' work-life balance but transport bosses called the strike "unnecessary action".
> 
> Customers are advised to check before they travel and use buses to complete their journeys where required.





> Tonight's much lauded and hyped relaunch of the night tube is meant to another step in London's rebuilding.
> 
> It's particularly important to the night time economy and the West End in particular.
> 
> ...


Typical lack of joined up thinking between reporting on this and whats happening with the pandemic.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 29, 2021)

Me76 said:


> The tube is back to normal times.  With I would say 40% mask wearing.   It will be interesting to see whether today's news make a change.


Big increase in mask wearing , I got the Hammersmith line from Liverpool St to Kings Cross this morning, most mask wearing I have seen in months.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 29, 2021)

I am just home from the supermarket. About 50% of people were wearing masks, the majority that were not were builders.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 29, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I am just home from the supermarket. About 50% of people were wearing masks, the majority that were not were builders.



About 60-70 on the tube, which is right up, same demographic and teens/deanos without them


----------



## _Russ_ (Nov 29, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I am just home from the supermarket. About 50% of people were wearing masks, the majority that were not were builders.


Builders, they love it dont they?, the more it scares/winds up others the more of a buzz they get, fucking knuckle draggers


----------



## Sue (Nov 29, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Builders, they love it dont they?, the more it scares/winds up others the more of a buzz they get, fucking knuckle draggers


You're such a dick. Honestly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Builders, they love it dont they?, the more it scares/winds up others the more of a buzz they get, fucking knuckle draggers


Twat


----------



## fen_boy (Nov 29, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Shit’s getting real in the smoke.



Everyone knows this is a parody account, right?


----------



## spitfire (Nov 29, 2021)

fen_boy said:


> Everyone knows this is a parody account, right?



No I’m not.


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 1, 2021)

commute yesterday was back to pre-covid normal levels of extremely busy on tube and train. was surprised that mask wearing seemed to be back up to 95% ish, certainly on the tube.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 1, 2021)

I was on the tube this morning and noticed an increase in mask wearing too.


----------



## elbows (Dec 1, 2021)

I'm pleased but not surprised, I would have been more surprised and horrified if there hadnt been an obvious, rapid change to these sorts of behaviours.

Fatigue is real but it is grossy overstated, not least by those seeking to justify slow and limited government response. Whitty for example is often caught between a rock and a hard place due to the nature of his role and the governments crappy preferences, but he too readily falls back on fatigue and non-compliance excuses in order to try to square the circle.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 1, 2021)

It's been compulsory on the tube right through though - so nothing has changed as far as the rules about what you're supposed to do on the tube are concerned. 

But for whatever reason, the fact that it's now compulsory on all transport seems to have changed some people's minds about what they should do on this one particular mode. Sort of interesting.


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2021)

I think people knew it couldn’t be enforced, so saw it as a technical breach only.


----------



## elbows (Dec 1, 2021)

UK authorities havent relied on formal enforcement and the threat of formal enforcement much at all in the grand scheme of things. Mood music, general and specific fears, press attention etc, are a huge driver of behavioural changes. Plus as we saw when mask compliance was eroding, people are driven by what they see others doing, so once momentum goes back in the other direction it ends up accelerating change.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 1, 2021)

Winot said:


> I think people knew it couldn’t be enforced, so saw it as a technical breach only.


It still can't really be enforced though.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 1, 2021)

fen_boy said:


> Everyone knows this is a parody account, right?



Yes - they are obviously just regular commuters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2021)

perhaps this thread should be retitled the relockening


----------



## Sue (Dec 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps this thread should be retitled the relockening
> View attachment 300636


Yep, the numbers are absolutely shooting up. 

Eta They're just saying on the radio that as early as tomorrow, Omicron could be the predominant strain in London. They keep saying 'exponential'.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 13, 2021)

Out and about at work today, I noticed quite a few queues outside the smaller shops.


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps this thread should be retitled the relockening
> View attachment 300636


Could you (or anyone) please post a link to the page where that info is available.

I thought I had saved the link, but can't now find it.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> Could you (or anyone) please post a link to the page where that info is available.
> 
> I thought I had saved the link, but can't now find it.



There is an interactive map on the UK dashboard that starts to show that sort of level of detail when you zoom in on the map sufficiently.



			https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/cases
		


In terms of the image in the post you mention, the font used for the title makes me think Daily Mail graphic. For all their ridiculous, deranged and dangerous output in this pandemic, they are also massively into producing rather large quantities of graphical illustrations of pandemic data.


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2021)

elbows said:


> There is an interactive map on the UK dashboard that starts to show that sort of level of detail when you zoom in on the map sufficiently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's the page I was after.

I see they now include info on vaccinations, which is new since the last time I looked. 

Rates in my local area don't look great


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2021)

elbows said:


> There is an interactive map on the UK dashboard that starts to show that sort of level of detail when you zoom in on the map sufficiently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeh it's from today's mail Omicron makes up 40% of new Covid cases in London, Boris Johnson says


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2021)

Vaccination rate is pretty hopeless in many parts of london.


----------



## Sue (Dec 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> Could you (or anyone) please post a link to the page where that info is available.
> 
> I thought I had saved the link, but can't now find it.


I was just posting about the numbers on the Hackney thread. Really massive increase where I am.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Vaccination rate is pretty hopeless in many parts of london.


Extent of hopelessness made unclear by limitations in the total population estimates used. Similar pattern in most cities I've glanced at, and its hard to unpick extent of genuinely low uptake from faulty population estimates, or other factors such people who were in the city only being there because of a job there that went online or evaporated during earlier phases of the pandemic, and are now residing elsewhere. Obviously that possibility includes those who had 2nd homes and the luxury of running away from the cities when the pandemic shit hit the fan.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> I was just posting about the numbers on the Hackney thread. Really massive increase where I am.


yeh it's pretty shit where i am too, prob just round the corner from you


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> I was just posting about the numbers on the Hackney thread. Really massive increase where I am.


Practically the whole borough is purple again now


----------



## Sue (Dec 13, 2021)

I was talking to a friend about vaccination rates in London over the weekend (locally our cases have gone from 282:100,000 (01/12) to 663:100,000 (08/12). Vaccination rates are 63%/56% for vaxx 1 and 2.)

He reckons he knows a load of people who haven't been vaxxed. All from his allotment and in their late 50s/60s. The prevailing logic seems to be that if you eat a good diet (i.e. veg from your allotment) and are reasonably healthy, you'll be fine and don't need to be vaccinated as your diet will protect you from catching it. And if you do somehow catch it, you won't be very ill with it so what's the point in getting vaccinated... 

(My friend is very strongly pro-vaccination and has been gently trying to persuade them to get jabbed but to no avail. It's all very strange 🤷‍♀️.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> I was talking to a friend about vaccination rates in London over the weekend (locally our cases have gone from 282:100,000 (01/12) to 663:100,000 (08/12). Vaccination rates are 63%/56% for vaxx 1 and 2.)
> 
> He reckons he knows a load of people who haven't been vaxxed. All from his allotment and in their late 50s/60s. The prevailing logic seems to be that if you eat a good diet (i.e. veg from your allotment) and are reasonably healthy, you'll be fine and don't need to be vaccinated as your diet will protect you from catching it. And if you do somehow catch it, you won't be very ill with it so what's the point in getting vaccinated...
> 
> (My friend is very strongly pro-vaccination and has been gently trying to persuade them to get jabbed but to no avail. It's all very strange 🤷‍♀️.)


It's a nice theory, the diet bit, but sadly bollocks


----------



## Sue (Dec 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's a nice theory, the diet bit, but sadly bollocks


Well yeah. My friend's been saying to them that eating a good diet and lots of veg and and exercising are all really good things to do but that they should get vaccinated too but to no avail.


----------



## stdP (Dec 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> The prevailing logic seems to be that if you eat a good diet (i.e. veg from your allotment) and are reasonably healthy, you'll be fine and don't need to be vaccinated as your diet will protect you from catching it. And if you do somehow catch it, you won't be very ill with it so what's the point in getting vaccinated...



There's a contingent of what some might call the hippy-dippy organic food people that are like this. We generally buy a lot of organic fruit and veg since it generally tastes much better, and there's a fair few randoms we know from around the area who do too. Imagine our surprise this summer when one of these couples we chinwag with expressed shock that we'd taken the vaccines "completely unnecessarily", because why would we pollute our bodies with "chemicals" when organic "chemical free"* produce was already protecting us...?

I'm not very tactful at the best of times but I said they were ignorant fools if they believed this and asked them why they did. Cue the phrase "we did our own research..." and enough eye-rolling from me to give me a neck injury. We've not seen them since but suspect we're off the christmas card list. Some people who I know around here who do have allotments don't subscribe to any of this shite thankfully and they've all had their jabs, so it's not an endemic outbreak of idiocy.

TBH you get the same form of denialism in virtually ever walk of life, because no one likes to think of bad stuff happening to them and it's very easy to convince yourself you're immune from X because of Y if you really want to believe it.

* I should have warned them about the perils of DHMO.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 13, 2021)

personal observation (from the west / south west side of london) is that trains today had slightly more than half the number of passengers that's usual (although mondays tend to be more popular for wfh-ing)

bloody big queue at the lambeth council (?) covid testing tents opposite the old vic just after 9 am (think they just do testing and handing out boxes of home tests, not jabbing)


----------



## marty21 (Dec 14, 2021)

Went into work today, noticeably quieter on trains/tubes and the office has very few people in . It's like the old days.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 14, 2021)

Lockdown away from work but this time your allowed to go out to party.

It's so fucking weird


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Went into work today, noticeably quieter on trains/tubes and the office has very few people in . It's like the old days.


how far back are you going here?


----------



## marty21 (Dec 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> how far back are you going here?


Pre pandemic


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Pre pandemic


not sure there was a pre-pandemic, we have always been at war with coronavirus


----------



## Sue (Dec 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure there was a pre-pandemic, we have always been at war with coronavirus


It certainly bloody feels like it sometimes.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 16, 2021)

I'm starting to wonder if cancelling the fireworks and restricting the new years Day parade might just have been a brilliant piece of foresight. There again, it might just be about not spending money?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2021)

really quiet on the way into work today, much quieter than last week or even yesterday


----------



## hash tag (Dec 16, 2021)

Mrs tag said the same thing. People working from home a little more, schools and unis closing down, people knocking off early for Christmas.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 18, 2021)

I see a state of emergency has been declared by Khan. Not entirely sure how this will effect us though 🙄


----------



## Sue (Dec 18, 2021)

Half of London's now dark purple. Locally, the case numbers are comparable with this time last year. 

(And yes, obviously much, much higher vaccination rates than last year, different strain is possibly less bad, more testing now than then, etc, etc just feels a bit fucking depressing is all. )



			https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/cases


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2021)

Local to me (lambeth) the case numbers are between 3 and 4 times the peak of last winter.


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 18, 2021)

Hospitalisations about 25% of the peak at the moment so hopefully that's a good sign (for now, i know etc)


----------



## pbsmooth (Dec 18, 2021)

50% of people haven't had first jab where I am. Depressing


----------



## Mation (Dec 18, 2021)

Went to a caff for breakfast this morning, as this it felt like it might be the last chance for some time. Sat outside, as there were no windows to open, and a big sign on the door instructing people to make sure they closed it properly 

One of the owners (I think) was saying that he'd been foolish (his word) and initially hadn't got the vaccine, as he'd listened to people saying it was all about putting tracking things in you. Then he got covid and spent three weeks thinking he was going to die.

He's probably in his early thirties, and is now triple jabbed. He was still working, unmasked, in a relatively small, unventilated place though


----------



## alex_ (Dec 18, 2021)

Mation said:


> He's probably in his early thirties, and is now triple jabbed. He was still working, unmasked, in a relatively small, unventilated place though



I suspect the low priority that we have paid to effective ventilation, which is in many cases free - is something when all this wraps up will be a lesson learned ( at great cost ) from the pandemic.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 19, 2021)

Mation said:


> Went to a caff for breakfast this morning, as this it felt like it might be the last chance for some time. Sat outside, as there were no windows to open, and a big sign on the door instructing people to make sure they closed it properly
> 
> One of the owners (I think) was saying that he'd been foolish (his word) and initially hadn't got the vaccine, as he'd listened to people saying it was all about putting tracking things in you. Then he got covid and spent three weeks thinking he was going to die.
> 
> He's probably in his early thirties, and is now triple jabbed. He was still working, unmasked, in a relatively small, unventilated place though


I and my colleagues are front line workers. We hot desk. We have no paper for hand drying. We have no windows or doors which we can open.
They have just had a wall mounted temperature checker and PPE, otherwise no safeguards.
Yep, I helped a guy up of the floor on friday and administered personal care; he has since tested positive.
Shortly, we are headed out for a walk followed by a pub dinner (booked) which I am so looking forward to.


----------



## RubyToogood (Dec 20, 2021)

Was there much of a rush hour on the roads today? I need to deliver some presents tomorrow. I imagine most schools are done and dusted.


----------



## clicker (Dec 20, 2021)

RubyToogood said:


> Was there much of a rush hour on the roads today? I need to deliver some presents tomorrow. I imagine most schools are done and dusted.


I know a few schools breaking up tomorrow (S London). Not an early finish either. Roads seemed quieter today, but not hugely.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 20, 2021)

When I had my plod around the commons in SW London, this morning, the roads looked quieter than usual.


----------



## Mation (Dec 20, 2021)

With stupidly bad timing, I've had to get to work by public transport instead of cycling for about a week. It's felt increasingly safe, though, with fewer and fewer other passengers, and the great majority with masks. Surprised and relieved to see that it's not just me that gets on the bus and opens windows, and that people will sit down next to an open window without looking like they want to shut it.

I remember in autumn 2020 dreading the thought of having to get the bus in cold winter weather, thinking about the usual heavy condensation on windows.  Think I managed to dodge it last year. This year has been condensation-free, thus far


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

I was at Waterloo at 09.15. it was empty. Traffic very light, people very light. All very sad.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 21, 2021)

I drove back from Bath yesterday and traffic was lighter when I got into London at about 4pm , drove down the A40 to Edgware Rd , then up through Regent's Park, Camden, Highbury Corner, Dalston and there were very few delays . Normally I can rely on a few major traffic snarl ups.


----------



## pesh (Dec 21, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I was at Waterloo at 09.15. it was empty. Traffic very light, people very light. All very sad.


Londons always like that on Christmas week tbf


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

Now in a bar for refreshments. It's less than a quarter full, the staff are very flat as were most of staff I've spoken to in shops


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)




----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

No news years Eve now BBC News - Omicron: Trafalgar Square New Year's Eve event cancelled








						Omicron: Trafalgar Square New Year's Eve event cancelled
					

London Mayor Sadiq Khan says staging the event would not be in the interests of public safety.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## DaphneM (Dec 21, 2021)

this thread should be retitled London: The Lockening


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2021)

/


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps this thread should be retitled the relockening
> View attachment 300636





DaphneM said:


> this thread should be retitled London: The Lockening


brilliant minds


----------



## marty21 (Dec 21, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> this thread should be retitled London: The Lockening


The re-lockening


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Now in a bar for refreshments. It's less than a quarter full, the staff are very flat as were most of staff I've spoken to in shops


how were the drinks?


----------



## prunus (Dec 21, 2021)

marty21 said:


> The re-lockening



Enlockening. More efficient. Only requires changing one letter.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> how were the drinks?


Ok, just ok. Average really


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Ok, just ok. Average really


were they as flat as the staff?


----------



## editor (Dec 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> brilliant minds


Your word is my command.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

One of us took tea, the other a glass of still wine; the only beer was fizzy pop stuff.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 21, 2021)

I was in my local tonight , The Crooked Billet in Clapton, very quiet , unusually quiet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I was in my local tonight , The Crooked Billet in Clapton, very quiet , unusually quiet.


Was it quiet, too quiet?


----------



## Cloo (Dec 21, 2021)

Went out last night in West End to a show that was actually going ahead (Nutcracker at English National Ballet)- a lot of theatres dark. Ballet show I'm sure would normally be sold out but I'd say 10-15% of people probably dropped out.

Restaurants really empty - a few people indoors and outdoors, but I expect, even on a Monday, they'd usually be spilling over. Streets not deserted by any means, but significantly less thronguing than usual.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Was it quiet, too quiet?


Ssssh, It was oh so quiet


----------



## marty21 (Dec 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Was it quiet, too quiet?


Yep , it's  big pub , maybe 30 or so in . Mostly in the garden .


----------



## ska invita (Dec 21, 2021)

one big pub near me busy today, including a party of a dozen women in their 80s having xmas dinner!! eek


----------



## hash tag (Dec 21, 2021)

It's all rather sad. Business's have suffered very badly over the last year, especially the smaller ones and pubs, restaurants, hairdressers etc. One would hope and expect them to be really busy at the moment...from what I have seen they are far from busy.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

London showing off the new >1600 case rate colour


----------



## magneze (Dec 22, 2021)

Definitely emptying out though. Supermarket very quiet yesterday. As usual our road has very few cars - same things happens every year.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

The queues outside the cheesemongers of East Dulwich were quite something when I walked past a couple of hours ago.


----------



## magneze (Dec 22, 2021)

No cheesemongers here. Although also haven't really been out much so perhaps there's tons of people just out of sight and perhaps there's also a ton of cheesemongers too.


----------



## Sue (Dec 22, 2021)

Hackney's just breached 3000 cases per 100k. (3066).


----------



## hash tag (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> The queues outside the cheesemongers of East Dulwich were quite something when I walked past a couple of hours ago.


It is not to be sniffed at.


----------



## andysays (Dec 22, 2021)

Sue said:


> Hackney's just breached 3000 cases per 100k. (3066).


Looks like that's the highest borough in London.

Haringey where I am has jumped almost 200% to 1757 per 100k.

And all those figures are for the seven days to 17 Dec, so are likely even higher by now.


----------



## spitfire (Dec 22, 2021)

Just been to Stratford Westfield, (after having covid, recovered, did iso, now neg). Decent amount of mask wearing but still not enough.

It is definitely quieter than previous pre-Xmas visits. Lots of stuff being marked down already.


----------



## Sue (Dec 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Looks like that's the highest borough in London.
> 
> Haringey where I am has jumped almost 200% to 1757 per 100k.
> 
> And all those figures are for the seven days to 17 Dec, so are likely even higher by now.


Interestingly, I don't know anyone round here who's tested positive recently but I'm guessing that's because people I know are mainly WFH and not using public transport. 

ETA I'm guessing Haringey will be following close behind having similar vaccination rates/demographics, as well as being next door.


----------



## klang (Dec 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Looks like that's the highest borough in London.
> 
> Haringey where I am has jumped almost 200% to 1757 per 100k.
> 
> And all those figures are for the seven days to 17 Dec, so are likely even higher by now.


fucking hell. I remember a time when 50/100k was said to be critical.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Looks like that's the highest borough in London.
> 
> Haringey where I am has jumped almost 200% to 1757 per 100k.
> 
> And all those figures are for the seven days to 17 Dec, so are likely even higher by now.


They are actually quite possibly lower now, because there are signs that parts of London might have peaked a few days ago.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> London showing off the new >1600 case rate colour
> 
> View attachment 302341


Presumably, the next level up will be some kind of ultraviolet?


----------



## hash tag (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> They are actually quite possibly lower now, because there are signs that parts of London might have peaked a few days ago.


On the other hand, the new strain shows fewer symptoms which could mean even fewer people think they have got it and getting tested.

Speaking at work today, it sounds like there are 2 people who have now tested positive for a second time


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> London showing off the new >1600 case rate colour
> 
> View attachment 302341



I was looking at that yesterday and let out a hollow laugh when I saw the brand new shiny black category to cater for 1600+ then the actual numbers in Lambeth of 2500+ .


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

Each category is double the previous one though, so we are good up to 3199.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Each category is double the previous one though, so we are good up to 3199.



I noted that too with a blow on my party whistle.


----------



## andysays (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Each category is double the previous one though, so we are good up to 3199.


And as noted, Hackney as a whole is already up to 3066, which means that some individual MSOAs are higher.

Dalston Kingsland and De Beauvoir, for instance, is up to 3231.8


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## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

North London though so who cares.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 22, 2021)

Sue said:


> Hackney's just breached 3000 cases per 100k. (3066).


That might explain why the Billet was pretty empty just now 🤔


----------



## marty21 (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> North London though so who cares.


East 😡


----------



## Sue (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> North London though so who cares.


That's helpful.


----------



## magneze (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Each category is double the previous one though, so we are good up to 3199.


Some areas already well above that.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

marty21 said:


> East 😡


Same thing.


----------



## Supine (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> They are actually quite possibly lower now, because there are signs that parts of London might have peaked a few days ago.



Got any evidence for that?


----------



## hash tag (Dec 22, 2021)

Both from yesterday


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2021)

Supine said:


> Got any evidence for that?


----------



## marty21 (Dec 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Same thing.


Ffs


----------



## mango5 (Dec 23, 2021)

Useful thread


----------



## magneze (Dec 23, 2021)

mango5 said:


> Useful thread



What does this mean? 
3.  vaccine/immune escape effects vary by type & dose, but on average would lead to a slight increase in severity (except for boosted AZ)


----------



## mango5 (Dec 23, 2021)

magneze I *think* it means that the presence of so many vaccinated people will slightly increase the chances of the virus mutating. I haven't read the Imperial study he is summarising. I picked the info up from this
International vaccination: Potential impact on viral evolution and UK public health, 21 July 2021



			
				Govt report said:
			
		

> At the individual level, partial immunity may create conditions that favour onward transmission of variants with immune escape-associated mutations [low confidence]. However, it is not yet clear how different vaccines, dosing regimes, or immunity from previous infection may intersect with different variants and individual host characteristics to influence the emergence of immune escape variants.


----------



## 2hats (Dec 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> What does this mean?
> 3.  vaccine/immune escape effects vary by type & dose, but on average would lead to a slight increase in severity (except for boosted AZ)


As per the preprint: generally speaking (that is, for any number 1/2/3 of doses and any mix of AZ/Pfizer/Moderna), the risk for vaccinated persons of being hospitalised due to infection by omicron is _slightly_ higher than that for those same persons being hospitalised due to delta. The comparable risk (omicron v delta) for three-dose vaccinees who received AstraZeneca as their primary series is _apparently_ reduced. (Note: it's not directly comparing each vaccine series type to the other, but comparing the same series between exposure to each of those two variants).

However, one should be cautious in interpreting this. First of all insert usual warning about sample size. Then, bear in mind that insufficient time has yet passed to facilitate a more complete analysis based on outcomes (there are 'hospitalised' persons in this study who we do not yet know if they will survive or not*). Finally, if as other studies suggest, at a given timepoint mRNA vaccines _could_ be better at reducing episodes to 'just' asymptomatic cases whilst AstraZeneca _might_ manage to retain a higher efficacy to severe disease/fatality, then this _could_ introduce a bias in this particular result as this study was only assessing people who attended/were admitted to hospital.

* or suffer from sequelae/long covid which are not even considered here.


----------



## Winot (Dec 23, 2021)

Where I live


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## magneze (Dec 23, 2021)

Yep, on that list too.


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## pbsmooth (Dec 23, 2021)

Is that partly due to being an area with lots of people testing? People about to visit relatives etc.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 23, 2021)

13 out of 18 staff at brixton Three had covid last week.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 4, 2022)

Was in town last night for a play - quite odd. Tube pretty empty,  quite a lot of restaurants shut although some of them may have been for 'Monday in January' anyway,  regardless of covid.  Until we got to theatre, we seemed to be the only people out over the age of 30. Lots of young folks roaming the streets but not all that many places for them to go by the look of things.


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## hash tag (Jan 6, 2022)

Walking through spitalfields earlier, most of the restaurants and pubs we saw were literally empty, no city workers no tourists 😟
Liverpool St Station & London Bridge in the rush hour


----------



## Winot (Jan 6, 2022)

Regent Street empty at lunchtime. Just a few tourists wandering around.


----------



## zora (Jan 12, 2022)

As posted above - Central London is sooooo quiet again. The shop I work in is shutting at 7pm instead of 8pm again for the next few weeks because there's noone around in the evenings, and I am currently one of 10 people on the bus home,  and all busses around me seem to have similar passenger numbers.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 13, 2022)

Drive home from work was eerily traffic queue free yesterday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2022)

zora said:


> As posted above - Central London is sooooo quiet again. The shop I work in is shutting at 7pm instead of 8pm again for the next few weeks because there's noone around in the evenings, and I am currently one of 10 people on the bus home,  and all busses around me seem to have similar passenger numbers.


You still in the same place you were years back?


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## zora (Jan 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You still in the same place you were years back?


Yep, same place!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2022)

zora said:


> Yep, same place!


I'll pop by next time I'm down there, still the same section?


----------



## pbsmooth (Jan 13, 2022)

yep still quiet on the roads coming in (on my bike). I guess understandable due to wfh 'order', though our office is getting busier as people are going slowly mad stuck at home.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2022)

Not quiet in hackney


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## Numbers (Jan 13, 2022)

Proper busy around my part of Newham.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 16, 2022)

Went for dinner in soho on Friday night (for the first time in ages) and it was pretty busy throughout.

Saturday, Barbican was quite busy.

Today Barbican was again quite busy, and some of the streets around the St Pauls end of the City were busier than I might have expected.

Regent street and Oxford St reasonably busy, certainly not deserted



I happened on a bit of a sign of the times at House of Fraser on Oxford St though, apparently its final day after thirty-something years of operation.



Quite a few other major shops boarded up on Oxford St too.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 17, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Went for dinner in soho on Friday night (for the first time in ages) and it was pretty busy throughout.
> 
> Saturday, Barbican was quite busy.
> 
> ...


Mid last year I had call to walk down South Molton Street and that had really taken a hit - I think over 50% of shops looked permanently shuttered.

Lots of Oxford Street department stores either going or converting some or all of floorspace to offices, though Selfridges is actually going to turn part into a hotel. It used to have one rounf the back but think it shut some years ago. The whole department store gig seems kind of up, certainly it is for mid-range ones like HoF and Debenhams - I think consumers want to go online for convenience and choice or to chi-chi-er boutique places that are more of an 'experience' than a so-so department store now.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Mid last year I had call to walk down South Molton Street and that had really taken a hit - I think over 50% of shops looked permanently shuttered.
> 
> Lots of Oxford Street department stores either going or *converting some or all of floorspace to offices, *though Selfridges is actually going to turn part into a hotel. It used to have one rounf the back but think it shut some years ago. The whole department store gig seems kind of up, certainly it is for mid-range ones like HoF and Debenhams - I think consumers want to go online for convenience and choice or to chi-chi-er boutique places that are more of an 'experience' than a so-so department store now.




Man those landlords are going to be pissed when they notice Covid.

The department store day is really long over sadly, I'll miss the easy access to decent bogs.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 17, 2022)

Well, as I've mentioned before, there is a prevailing belief in the business that The Office is Not Dead  (it's merely having a nap). Construction and deals are still going on apace in London.


----------



## hash tag (Jan 17, 2022)

Is it the department store that's over or the high street generally?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 17, 2022)

It does seem to be the department store in particular, but I wonder if something department store-like but not quite the same will re-emerge.

I'm not fully convinced that there's no longer a market for the mid range department store. For people who want to be able to look at stuff & try it on, don't want chi-chi but also don't want to do the legwork of tramping round multiple individual stores.

I wonder if stores like HoF didn't necessarily have a fundamentally broken model, but just weren't able to change quickly enough in certain ways.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Is it the department store that's over or the high street generally?



Yes.

Though the High Street will probably see a resurgence for a time thanks to covid and wfh - it would see a lot more long term life if the government put some fucking effort into supporting and improving pedestrian/cycle access and small businesses.


----------



## hash tag (Jan 18, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yes.
> 
> Though the High Street will probably see a resurgence for a time thanks to covid and wfh - it would see a lot more long term life if the government put some fucking effort into supporting and improving pedestrian/cycle access and small businesses.


The shops will only survive of course if the public continue to use them as opposed to shopping on line. Yes, a shop price will be a little more expensive but they can't get the discounts that e-commerce business's do. Also shops have much greater overheads and can't resort to the tax avoidance schemes which larger companies use.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It does seem to be the department store in particular, but I wonder if something department store-like but not quite the same will re-emerge.
> 
> I'm not fully convinced that there's no longer a market for the mid range department store. For people who want to be able to look at stuff & try it on, don't want chi-chi but also don't want to do the legwork of tramping round multiple individual stores.
> 
> I wonder if stores like HoF didn't necessarily have a fundamentally broken model, but just weren't able to change quickly enough in certain ways.


A department store just can’t get the range of stock in to compete with online.  The floor space may seem massive but if you want a particular style of a particular item of clothing in your particular size, you‘re generally lucky to find one that fits, let alone multiple options.  By contrast, I can order a range of things online, try them on at home and then just return what I don’t want, generally for free (I mean, _I_ don’t do this because I buy an item of new clothing about once per government cycle, but the kabbess does it).  It costs the online company in delivery but they don’t need to keep an expensive shop and retail staff.

Same goes for other products, like consumer electronics.  The department store just can’t compete on range and availability.  And that means I have to bear the risk of sinking my time into going there only to discover that they don’t have what I need.  I used to absolutely hate going shopping, whereas now I never need to do it.


----------



## NoXion (Jan 18, 2022)

kabbes said:


> A department store just can’t get the range of stock in to compete with online. The floor space may seem massive but if you want a particular style of a particular item of clothing in your particular size, you‘re generally lucky to find one that fits, let alone multiple options.



Sometimes they don't even have that. The last time I went to physical store to buy clothing, they didn't even have any plain black shirts. Like what the fuck, I would have thought that such items would be standard stock. Apparently not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Sometimes they don't even have that. The last time I went to physical store to buy clothing, they didn't even have any plain black shirts. Like what the fuck, I would have thought that such items would be standard stock. Apparently not.


should have gone to m&s





						Men's Black Shirts | M&S
					

Skinny-fit to casual cuts, with short sleeves or long ones – pick out your style from our black shirts for men. Stock up your wardrobe with M&S




					www.marksandspencer.com


----------



## teuchter (Jan 18, 2022)

kabbes said:


> A department store just can’t get the range of stock in to compete with online.  The floor space may seem massive but if you want a particular style of a particular item of clothing in your particular size, you‘re generally lucky to find one that fits, let alone multiple options.



They don't have to compete on range. One of the issues online is too much choice. In fact part of the point of a good department store is that it's fairly well targeted at a certain part of the market, so that things are to some extent pre-selected for you.

I know that online works for some people, but I think there are still plenty of people who like to buy certain things in person. Especially with clothes it's quite easy to choose a load of things that look ok on a computer screen but as soon as you see them in real life you know you don't like them. That judgement can be made instantly when looking through a rack in a shop. There's also an element of hassle with online shopping where you have to pack all the unwanted stuff up again, complete forms and so on, maybe even take it somewhere to send it off. 

Electronics are different because decisions are more spec driven. I usually buy that kind of thing online and engage in excessive research before purchase but I do know people who prefer to go somewhere in person, talk to an assistant for advice on what they need, and buy somewhere "reliable" where they believe the warranty will be honoured and so on. John Lewis trades off this kind of thing of course.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Sometimes they don't even have that. The last time I went to physical store to buy clothing, they didn't even have any plain black shirts. Like what the fuck, I would have thought that such items would be standard stock. Apparently not.


Yes, this is exactly what I have found in the past.  I remember needing a black shirt for a concert.  Admittedly, black shirts aren’t generally everyday attire, but I couldn’t find a single one on the entire high street.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> They don't have to compete on range. One of the issues online is too much choice. In fact part of the point of a good department store is that it's fairly well targeted at a certain part of the market, so that things are to some extent pre-selected for you.


If your dimensions aren’t in proportion to the model used as the standard for clothes, though, none of it will fit you.  I barely know a woman that doesn’t have this problem.  The joy of online shopping isn’t so much the range of clothing, it’s the fact that you can often filter by measurements.  If you have shorter legs than normal, you can identify clothes that have this leg measurement.  Ditto waist or bust or hips or arms.  This is the key reason that the kabbess buys her clothes online — until online shopping came along, the vast majority of her clothes shopping attempts ended without her getting what she wanted.  And she isn’t even an unusual shape to look at.

I think men generally have it easier, but there too I have found that there are now online shops that will give you a range of options for things like thigh size (wide, medium, narrow) and shoulder width (well built, medium, slender).  There’s no way that a physical store can do this — the combinatorics of it are impossible.  I don‘t know how they can manage it online either but somehow they do.

I agree about the curation aspect of the stock.  This is what drives me nuts about online shopping, and it is undoubtedly a key reason that I never buy clothes — I simply don’t know where to start.  But if you‘re not a total nerd dweeb like me then I think most people seem to have a better idea how to look for things they like.


teuchter said:


> I know that online works for some people, but I think there are still plenty of people who like to buy certain things in person. Especially with clothes it's quite easy to choose a load of things that look ok on a computer screen but as soon as you see them in real life you know you don't like them. That judgement can be made instantly when looking through a rack in a shop. There's also an element of hassle with online shopping where you have to pack all the unwanted stuff up again, complete forms and so on, maybe even take it somewhere to send it off.


The kabbess says it is much, much easier to scan through things on a screen than in a shop.  On a screen, you can quickly look through 50 garments and click next.  To physically achieve the same volume of search that can be done in 5 minutes on a computer would take hours in real life.  It helps that there are photos of people actually wearing the garments too, rather than needing to hold it up on a hanger and try to picture in your head how it will hang on you.  And whatever hassle you have when buying online can be multiplied manifold by the hassle of having to go to the shop, look for things, ask if they have your size, queue up, carry the things home etc.

I’m sure there are indeed plenty of people who like to buy things in person, but this market is increasingly niche.  It seems to me that the younger crowd shop via seeing product placements on social media with links about where to find them.  The middle-aged crowd doesn’t have time for physical shopping and the high street doesn’t really cater to them.  Maybe the older crowd still doesn’t trust online but this is a marketplace that isn’t going to last forever.

At the end of the day, there is a reason why shopping has massively shifted online.  If the high street couldn’t compete while it was still vibrant and well-stocked with variety, I can’t see it fighting back now that it is hollowed out.



teuchter said:


> Electronics are different because decisions are more spec driven. I usually buy that kind of thing online and engage in excessive research before purchase but I do know people who prefer to go somewhere in person, talk to an assistant for advice on what they need, and buy somewhere "reliable" where they believe the warranty will be honoured and so on. John Lewis trades off this kind of thing of course.


Yes, some people do like this personal touch.  There is an increasing disillusionment with the “reliable” chain stores, though, because to maintain viability, they’ve had to cut costs and that has meant a reduction in the “reliable” service.  I’ve heard more and more people say that they’ll never use John Lewis again, for example, having had trouble making use of their supposed trouble-free returns.  The last time I bought a TV in person was 10-20 years ago, from Dixons.  It had a dead pixel but they wouldn’t take it back.  That was the one advantage they had — a personal service — and they blew it.  Furthermore, it only takes somebody to buy something online once to realise that there is more and better buying advice that way than in talking to the clueless 20 year-old in the shop.  And that’s if they have the stock, which often they don’t.

Again, you have to look at the buying trends and think about what is going to change if that’s going to reverse.  The less volume the high street has, the more it loses its very ability to compete.  It’s getting worse for them, not better.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Yes, some people do.  There is an increasing disillusionment with the “reliable” chain stores, though, because it maintain viability, they’ve had to cut costs and that has meant a reduction in the “reliable” service.  I’ve heard more and more people say that they’ll never use John Lewis again, for example, having had trouble making use of their supposed trouble-free returns.  The last time I bought a TV in person was 10-20 years ago, from Dixons.  It had a dead pixel but they wouldn’t take it back.  That was the one advantage they had — a personal service — and they blew it.  Furthermore, it only takes somebody to buy something online once to realise that there is more and better buying advice that way than in talking to the clueless 20 year-old in the shop.  And that’s if they have the stock, which often they don’t.
> 
> Again, you have to look at the buying trends and think about what is going to change if that’s going to reverse.  The less volume the high street has, the more it loses its very ability to compete.  It’s getting worse for them, not better.


you only have to look at tottenham court road to see that - many of the people who worked in the electronics shops were very knowledgeable about their stock. yet all those shops are gone and all the specialist knowledge of the staff availed them naught against the challenge from online shopping.


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## pinkmonkey (Jan 18, 2022)

Wow, the photos of Oxford Street. 😳 I haven’t been there since before the pandemic began. If I’m honest it’s because I’d find it too depressing. I went into Knightsbridge for a meeting over a year ago and it was a ghost town, but haven’t ventured up West since then and now I’ve left London. I think this is mostly an issue of unrealistically high rents from greedy landlords more than anything else, hence the boarded up units. If Philip Green hadn’t raided Arcadia (it was cash rich and owned many of the stores, before he cashed them in and rented them back) I reckon they’d have survived this. But the long term trend is to shop online instead, which I almost always do. I find retail overwhelming and tiring. Now I’ve moved up North I can plainly see the difference in cheap and expensive rents. Here in this town there are several small family businesses that thrive, little knitting and sewing shops, a plant shop, an independant diy store, plenty chip shops in some towns that have traded forever, despite opening only a few hours a week. Greedy landlords have ripped the heart out of London, it was exciting in the 90’s, I’m  thinking of places like Kensington Market and the original Camden, now it’s all so dull and corporate.


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## Mrs Miggins (Jan 18, 2022)

The thing with physical shops, particularly when you live in London, is that actually getting to the shops takes a lot of travel time and hassle and when you do get to the shops, they are absolutely chockful of people making the whole experience a living hell.

This is the major reason I do all my shopping online now. I can't even remember the last time I went to a shop that wasn't a supermarket.


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## pinkmonkey (Jan 18, 2022)

Yep. I avoided Oxford Street November until mid January, couldn’t deal with the queues and crowds. When they have to keep shutting Oxford Street station and everyone is crammed around the entrance.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Greedy landlords have ripped the heart out of London, it was exciting in the 90’s, I’m  thinking of places like Kensington Market and the original Camden, now it’s all so dull and corporate.


tbh i think that it was _still_ exciting in the 90s but we caught the last flourish of the auld london


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## pbsmooth (Jan 18, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Wow, the photos of Oxford Street. 😳 I haven’t been there since before the pandemic began. If I’m honest it’s because I’d find it too depressing. I went into Knightsbridge for a meeting over a year ago and it was a ghost town, but haven’t ventured up West since then and now I’ve left London. I think this is mostly an issue of unrealistically high rents from greedy landlords more than anything else, hence the boarded up units. If Philip Green hadn’t raided Arcadia (it was cash rich and owned many of the stores, before he cashed them in and rented them back) I reckon they’d have survived this. But the long term trend is to shop online instead, which I almost always do. I find retail overwhelming and tiring. Now I’ve moved up North I can plainly see the difference in cheap and expensive rents. Here in this town there are several small family businesses that thrive, little knitting and sewing shops, a plant shop, an independant diy store, plenty chip shops in some towns that have traded forever, despite opening only a few hours a week. Greedy landlords have ripped the heart out of London, it was exciting in the 90’s, I’m  thinking of places like Kensington Market and the original Camden, now it’s all so dull and corporate.



London still has about a million of those high street shops, they're just not in WC1.

I was surprised to see so many of the cafes/shops inside Clapham Junction - world's busiest station or whatever it is - are still shut.


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## teuchter (Jan 18, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I think men generally have it easier, but there too I have found that there are now online shops that will give you a range of options for things like thigh size (wide, medium, narrow) and shoulder width (well built, medium, slender).  There’s no way that a physical store can do this — the combinatorics of it are impossible.  I don‘t know how they can manage it online either but somehow they do.


My experience (and not just for myself) is that this online process often doesn't work either. What you call combinatorics - you can do all the measurements you like, which maybe increases the chance of success, but still the only way to find out is to try the physical thing on the physical person.

My other observation of online shopping is that a large number of things ordered still ends up with a pretty low success rate of things actually being right. And often the things that aren't right sit in a bag waiting to be returned until the deadline passes, and 5 years later finally make it to a charity shop.

For sure there will be some people who generally prefer online... but I don't think the desire to go to physical shops is exactly "niche" yet.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 18, 2022)

I don't think it's niche to want to go to actual shops, there are plenty of people who still do. Increasingly it's not enough people to support the rent on large central properties though which is the main issue.


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## teuchter (Jan 18, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think it's niche to want to go to actual shops, there are plenty of people who still do. Increasingly it's not enough people to support the rent on large central properties though which is the main issue.


I imagine a lot of commercial landlords are deciding to hold out a bit to see what actually happens once the pandemic is "over" before accepting that they will have to reduce their expectations for rents.


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## marty21 (Jan 18, 2022)

Liverpool St /Kings Cross still not that busy , walked through St Pancras International at about 9.30 , not busy at all.


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## kabbes (Jan 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> For sure there will be some people who generally prefer online... but I don't think the desire to go to physical shops is exactly "niche" yet.


Alright, “niche” was a bit strong.  But the increasing closure of department stores even pre-COVID certainly indicates that it isn’t the dominant activity that it once was.  

I’d say that your idea of shops adding value via curated collections of stock with a clear identity is something more suited to smaller, boutique stores than department stores.  I can well see this being the future of the high street (although online stores also provide this curation service).   The shops that have survived to date do seem to be the more specialist ones, rather than the generalists.  However, department stores and other shops that previously dominated through size, range, price and convenience are doomed to be beaten by the online giants that can beat them on all four dimensions.


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## pinkmonkey (Jan 18, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> London still has about a million of those high street shops, they're just not in WC1.
> 
> I was surprised to see so many of the cafes/shops inside Clapham Junction - world's busiest station or whatever it is - are still shut.


Thats true, but a lot of the decent fashion independants in places such as Crouch end, Islington have gone, it’s so hard to make it work with the rents. But yeah, whats happened in town, when historic retailers close down or move, Im thinking of Arthur Beale and Stanfords maps. Anywhere else they would not be in that situation. They had sucessful businesses, they’re just not billion dollar corporations.


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## teuchter (Jan 18, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’d say that your idea of shops adding value via curated collections of stock with a clear identity is something more suited to smaller, boutique stores than department stores.


I'm not exactly thinking of that kind of thing though.

For me at least, I wouldn't go to a department store expecting a selection narrowly curated for "someone like me" - rather, I'd go with a general sort of expectation of price range and quality, and I'd have a sense that one department store would veer one way or the other on a "too boring" vs "too designery" spectrum but I'd not expect everything in there to be potentially of interest to me. It'll contain a bunch of different brands some of which i know it might be worth looking through and some which I know it probably isn't.

It needs to be quite big so that I have enough to choose from. And so there's a better chance that if I do find something, it'll be in stock in the size I want and so on.

The big advantage (again, for me at least) over going round all the individual shops represented by the conecessions in the dept store is that I can do things in one one hit. I can gather a bundle of stuff from different brands and take it to the changing room in one go, instead of having to go around lots of individual shops and multiple changing rooms, perhaps only taking one or two items to most of them. For someone like me who doesn't really enjoy shopping for themselves, this kind of efficiency is valuable.

I quite like TKmax for a similar reason, although it seems to have gone downhill recently and I'm rarely very successful in there now.

Thread is going a bit off track though...


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## Cloo (Jan 18, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think it's niche to want to go to actual shops, there are plenty of people who still do. Increasingly it's not enough people to support the rent on large central properties though which is the main issue.


I quite enjoyed a small post-Xmas sales shop in Muswell Hill where there are nice Actual Shops but it's not going to be as rammed as West End/malls - which of course is part of the reason these sorts of high streets have done comparatively well during COVID. 

I still say the best answer for central London is to find, somehow, a way for more ordinary people to live in it. Currently Zone 1 has social housing (not enough) and pads for multimillionaires and nothing in between. The difficulty is of course the insane underlying land values which make building affordably basically impossinle but if there were a way to get in more social housing, subsided housing for key workers and perhaps some kind of mechanism so that 'ordinary mortals' on middle incomes can live centrally that would be great. I mean everyone goes on about building around travel hubs, but that's not much good if routes get so busy that no one can get on a bus or train  by the time it's halfway into town, which was already happening (I'm talking to you, Victoria line) before COVID.


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## hash tag (Jan 18, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> The thing with physical shops, particularly when you live in London, is that actually getting to the shops takes a lot of travel time and hassle and when you do get to the shops, they are absolutely chockful of people making the whole experience a living hell.
> 
> This is the major reason I do all my shopping online now. I can't even remember the last time I went to a shop that wasn't a supermarket.


If you live in London it's takes no time to get to the shops either by bus or tube though saying that I will generally walk. As for being chock-full of people, my limited experience is they have never been as empty as they are now. The only clothing I have ever bought on line is the odd specialist tee shirt which would never make it to the high street. 
If I can't be bothered to go to the shops to look for something I don't really need it.


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## elbows (Jan 18, 2022)

Yeah, in my town they are throwing money at the town centre and the plan is to change the mix - it was mostly retail in the past so now they are adding more residential, entertainment (eg a cinema), student 6th form additional campus, and non-retail business premises to the picture.


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## Cloo (Jan 18, 2022)

I've always avoided Oxford Street etc around Christmas and midsummer as too busy and pollution gives me a headache, but I quite like going to the King's Road - it's got everything and also some nicer niche shops, it's not as busy as West End and because it's in a posh area staff seem to treat you more attentively than in your average high street in case you're going to spend ££££ 

Actually, once I've recovered from this fucking covid I'm probably due a mosey down there...


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## teuchter (Jan 18, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I quite enjoyed a small post-Xmas sales shop in Muswell Hill where there are nice Actual Shops but it's not going to be as rammed as West End/malls - which of course is part of the reason these sorts of high streets have done comparatively well during COVID.
> 
> I still say the best answer for central London is to find, somehow, a way for more ordinary people to live in it. Currently Zone 1 has social housing (not enough) and pads for multimillionaires and nothing in between. The difficulty is of course the insane underlying land values which make building affordably basically impossinle but if there were a way to get in more social housing, subsided housing for key workers and perhaps some kind of mechanism so that 'ordinary mortals' on middle incomes can live centrally that would be great. I mean everyone goes on about building around travel hubs, but that's not much good if routes get so busy that no one can get on a bus or train  by the time it's halfway into town, which was already happening (I'm talking to you, Victoria line) before COVID.


If it turns out post covid that there's a significant reduction in demand for retail and office space in central London, then I'd have thought that you'd see more space being turned over to residential and rents dropping somewhat, without active intervention. Doesn't get you social housing but the threshold for being able to live there might become lower.


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2022)

Ft have just released something that'll tell you approximately how your local area did.






__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




(Google the headline to get to the article)


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## teuchter (Jan 20, 2022)

A patch of blue has reappeared


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## pbsmooth (Feb 2, 2022)

Jubilee line was packed this morning. couldn't get on the first one through London Bridge this morning, like old times! obviously Northern line being closed doesn't help.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> A patch of blue has reappeared
> 
> View attachment 306811



What the hell is happening in Ongar


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## hash tag (Feb 2, 2022)

Entrance to a major terminal during Mondays rush hour


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## IC3D (Feb 2, 2022)

Jubilee is packed cos of norn line closure. Its getting busier week by week though. 
Was out in Soho last weekend, packed pubs and restaurants and a disconcerting happy and unaggy atmosphere everywhere. Was nice.


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## pbsmooth (Feb 2, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Entrance to a major terminal during Mondays rush hour
> View attachment 308468



No doubt lots more people doing 2/3/4 days in the office and no doubt Monday isn't a popular choice


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## marty21 (Feb 2, 2022)

It does seem busier at my HQ , Thursdays are usually the busiest though.


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## Cerv (Feb 23, 2022)

Covid: Tube and bus mask rules to be scrapped in London
					

A fall in Covid rates in London means people will no longer need to wear masks on public transport.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




TfL dropping their mask requirement from tomorrow.
in my experience almost everyone had stopped bothering anyway.


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## pbsmooth (Feb 23, 2022)

not my experience this week. I'd say still around 75% people wearing masks on the tube.


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## elbows (Feb 23, 2022)

I see that article has the usual shit quote in it about "All customers should be assured that the public transport network is as safe as other similar settings, and that independent testing has found no trace of coronavirus on our network since September 2020."

They may as well claim "our records show that Covid-19 has not bought a ticket to ride since September 2020".


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## existentialist (Feb 23, 2022)

elbows said:


> I see that article has the usual shit quote in it about "All customers should be assured that the public transport network is as safe as other similar settings, and that independent testing has found no trace of coronavirus on our network since September 2020."
> 
> They may as well claim "our records show that Covid-19 has not bought a ticket to ride since September 2020".


It's not all that far from the conspiraloons' own version of cargo cult immunology, is it?


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## kabbes (Feb 23, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> not my experience this week. I'd say still around 75% people wearing masks on the tube.


Yeah, that sounds about right.  And on the trains too, but obviously that isn’t tfl.


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## Me76 (Feb 25, 2022)

Since Christmas my experience is that there are more mask wearers than there were after July 'freedom' day last year.  

At that point what I saw was maybe 30% and now it's about 60%


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 25, 2022)

hmm.

i did the underground from paddington - baker street - southwark at about lunch time, and london bridge - baker street - paddington at about 8 pm today.  

i'd have put mask wearing maybe round 25%


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## Me76 (Feb 25, 2022)

I do train more often than tube.  Train is defo more on than off.  

But last week I did about 5 tube journeys and also did a bit of a count, cos why not, and it was more on than off but only just.  

Three were commute time and two were out.


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## teuchter (Feb 25, 2022)

My impression is that you'll see more mask wearing on commuter trains & tubes at peak time than on others.


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## Epona (Feb 26, 2022)

No-one wearing masks except me when I got on the bus to the supermarket earlier.  Someone coughing all over the place too.


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## Winot (Feb 26, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> hmm.
> 
> i did the underground from paddington - baker street - southwark at about lunch time, and london bridge - baker street - paddington at about 8 pm today.
> 
> i'd have put mask wearing maybe round 25%


Which is pretty high considering they are no longer required on public transport.


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## Numbers (Feb 28, 2022)

I flew from Dublin to London on Saturday, the difference in mask wearing is incredible.
In Ireland people even wear masks in the street, in shops and at the airport it was 100% compliance.
Arrived in London and maybe 5% of people wearing masks.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 28, 2022)

Numbers said:


> I flew from Dublin to London on Saturday, the difference in mask wearing is incredible.
> In Ireland people even wear masks in the street, in shops and at the airport it was 100% compliance.
> Arrived in London and maybe 5% of people wearing masks.



It's more prevalent in central than it is out here in outskirts. I get on tube in zone 6 and maybe 3 people in the carriage have a mask. I change to overground in zone 2 and it's maybe 30-40 percent.


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## Cloo (Feb 28, 2022)

Was in town on both Friday and Saturday nights and busyness had returned pretty much to normal.


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## platinumsage (May 20, 2022)

Yesterday was the first I time I went to central London since 2020. It seemed busier than it ever was, I avoided the tube but perhaps other people had the same idea because there were so many pedestrians throughout the afternoon and evening. Also it seems Thursday is the new Friday because all the pubs had people outside, I guess Friday is a WFH day. 

I saw about three people wearing masks the whole day.


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## salem (May 20, 2022)

Yeah, I think things are largely getting back to normal, I was at a gig at Brixton Academy the other week and it was glorious getting up close and sweaty with strangers. Still see maybe 5-10% of people wearing masks on the tube and I'll tend to give them a wide berth, if that's not possible I do still carry one and will put it on.


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## hash tag (May 20, 2022)

The tourists are virtually back to normal but as salem says, the offices don't appear to be. Mrs Tag and her staff are only going into the offices for two, maybe three days each week and 
many more could be doing likewise.


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## rutabowa (May 20, 2022)

Loads of massive, slightly manic adverts for "virtual office addresses" I've seen.


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## Elpenor (May 21, 2022)

Was on the tube at 1850 yesterday; bakerloo from Waterloo to Oxford Circus, Victoria to Finsbury Park. Not crowded; able to get a seat easily.

Felt like it should have been a busy rush hour period at that time but it really wasn’t.


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## pbsmooth (May 21, 2022)

hash tag said:


> The tourists are virtually back to normal but as salem says, the offices don't appear to be. Mrs Tag and her staff are only going into the offices for two, maybe three days each week and
> many more could be doing likewise.


I would imagine the majority of office workers are doing fewer than five days and will stay that way. People want it and they'll leave companies that don't offer flexibility.


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## kabbes (May 21, 2022)

Fridays are dead. 

Our offices are running at about 40% on Mondays, 60% on Tuesday-Thursdays and 20% on Fridays.


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## Elpenor (May 21, 2022)

That feels about right. Thinking back to my brief time working in London (Jan - early March 2020) the tube was always rammo, admittedly this was either going from the City to Paddington or down to London Bridge but even still it was quiet and dare I say it pleasant


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## Mrs Miggins (May 22, 2022)

It's absolutely back to normal on the Northern line at rush hour. Busses are rammed again in South london too.


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## hash tag (May 22, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> It's absolutely back to normal on the Northern line at rush hour. Busses are rammed again in South london too.


Are you a tube train driver on the Northern line? 🤣


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## hash tag (May 25, 2022)

I suspect this was the tip of the ice berg, just the few who were penalised 
BBC News - Covid: Nearly 4,000 maskless London passengers hit with fines








						Covid: Nearly 4,000 maskless London passengers hit with fines
					

Compulsory face coverings were reinstated amid rising concerns about the Omicron variant in November.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 25, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I suspect this was the tip of the ice berg, just the few who were penalised
> BBC News - Covid: Nearly 4,000 maskless London passengers hit with fines
> 
> 
> ...



They were never going to catch anything like the majority of cases were they. I think the point was just to make people aware that they might be caught and fined - at one point they'd done virtually nothing about it iirc.


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## Mrs Miggins (May 25, 2022)

It was always vanishingly unlikely that anyone at all would be "caught" not wearing a mask given there was nobody out enforcing it. I worked and travelled on public transport throughout the whole thing and saw enforcement people once during that time on a bus. Never on the tube or in mainline railway stations. I don't think any of my colleagues saw anyone at all.


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## Artaxerxes (May 26, 2022)

Yeah no consequences at all for not donning up.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 3, 2022)

London. Unlocked


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 4, 2022)

Is that Gary Barlow?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 4, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Is that Gary Barlow?




Sam Fender.

Grandma


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## teuchter (Jul 16, 2022)

Lambeth country show unlocked after a two year absence


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## teuchter (Aug 29, 2022)




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## Edie (Aug 29, 2022)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 340191View attachment 340192


London UNLOCKED. Love to see it


----------

