# I.T. Employers - do you respect BTEC qualifications?



## Helen Back (Jan 27, 2012)

I wasn't sure whether to put this in here of the techy forum but this will do.

I'm doing a Level 3 BTEC IT course (enhanced) at college and I've heard a couple of rumours that employers and universities don't regard them as being worth much. Is this so?

Also, the course claims that the top mark is the equivalent of 3 x A levels at A* grade. What are your thoughts on that?


----------



## Pingu (Jan 27, 2012)

depends on what you cover in the BTEC.

personally I am less impressed with qualifications and more impressed with general aptitude (which can be demonstrated by the qualification). IME college based IT course bear very ittle resembalance to the challanges faced in the real world but CAN gve you a grounding in the technologies.

Howver - and this is the bit you will hate - experience trumps qualifications every time


----------



## Helen Back (Jan 27, 2012)

Pingu said:


> depends on what you cover in the BTEC.
> 
> personally I am less impressed with qualifications and more impressed with general aptitude (which can be demonstrated by the qualification). IME college based IT course bear very ittle resembalance to the challanges faced in the real world but CAN gve you a grounding in the technologies.
> 
> Howver - and this is the bit you will hate - experience trumps qualifications every time



Cool!  I don't have any experience in an actual IT job but I'm 50 and I've been messing about with PCs for years. I've spoken to a few people online who are recruiters and apparently my age will go for me more times than against me. And if it does turn out that I'm wasting my time on this course then at least I'm having fun doing it.


----------



## Pingu (Jan 27, 2012)

a lot will also depend on what it is you want to do.

you need differnt qualities to be a programmer - analytical mind, love of caffine, antisocial tendacies, aversion to wearing a suit than you do to be a good support person - good communicator, ability to bullshit, aptitude for eating mars bars whilsttyping and talking at the same time.


----------



## Helen Back (Jan 27, 2012)

I haven't decided what I want to do yet. I'm just going to get the BTEC then see what my options are.


----------



## Pingu (Jan 27, 2012)

tbh you need to get an idea now. if you want to go into programming then you will need to learn programming languages (plus be the sort of person thats suited to it obv). if you want to go into support then problem solving and a more rounded knowledge would be better than concentrated knowledge in on area.

there are some it recruitment people on here who may be able to input too


----------



## Helen Back (Jan 28, 2012)

It's not a course where I can concentrate on one particular thing, it does a little bit of everything and has a set curriculum. It started in September and runs until July 2013 so there's plenty of time yet.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 28, 2012)

Pingu said:


> you need differnt qualities to be a programmer - analytical mind, love of caffine, antisocial tendacies, aversion to wearing a suit


My husband has been a programmer for nearly 30 years. This is so unlike him as to be practically a completely opposite description although he likes a good cup of coffee first thing. He is however, also a linguist and a musician. It's just another language really.


----------



## grit (Jan 28, 2012)

Pingu said:


> tbh you need to get an idea now. if you want to go into programming then you will need to learn programming languages (plus be the sort of person thats suited to it obv). if you want to go into support then problem solving and a more rounded knowledge would be better than concentrated knowledge in on area.
> 
> there are some it recruitment people on here who may be able to input too



Agreed with all this above, however support has a far fewer career progression opportunities.


----------



## sim667 (Jan 30, 2012)

I think they tend to be far more interested in stuff like the microsoft server quals etc

I want to do some as I think id be better off moving into IT and AV properly than doing what I do at the moment.


----------



## Pingu (Jan 30, 2012)

just to summerise my feelings on this I probaly would not respect the actual qualification.

but i would respect the work that went into getting it


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jan 31, 2012)

There's two general types of qualification: Generalist and Specialist.

Generalist ones like Computer Science degrees and probably this BTEC are good for getting you into an entry level job but won't give you much in the way of useable skills for any company. They hire you because they need someone to do a role but are willing to teach you it.

Microsoft, VMWare, Cisco etc. qualifications are supposed to show that you're ready and able to be launched into role X straight off with the skills and knowledge to use a system already. They are more tightly focussed and normally product specific.

Either way the main role of them is to get you into the interview, once you're there they won't help you much but they're great for getting in the door.


----------



## Helen Back (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm beginning to get a sense of how useless this qualification is. However, I shall continue to give it my all and see what happens when I try to get a job with it. Not much, I suspect but I do get a sense from these replies that it'll say more about me as a potential employee than my skills. Remember, this is college level stuff and I'm surrounded in class by its real target demographic - 17-19 year olds. I am finding this course to be quite easy most of the time. It has its moments but on the whole, yes, easy.

I was going to do my A levels this year but I would have had to have pay £1500 - or so I was told. It turned out that as I only came out of my GCSE course last year with 4 of the blighters (2xAs, 1xA* and a deliberate C in maths) instead of 5 I wouldn't have had to pay (which is the case with this £1500 BTEC course). But I didn't know that then and nobody told me. I don't know if I'll have been better off with 3xA levels "out there" but I'd have had a tougher time earning them. For the record, I'm 50 this year.


----------



## grit (Jan 31, 2012)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Generalist ones like Computer Science degrees and probably this BTEC are good for getting you into an entry level job but won't give you much in the way of useable skills for any company.



I dont agree regarding regarding a comp sci degree, depending on the university you can at least get a junior doing some basic bug fix commits pretty quickly. They are also in a far better position to tackle advanced topics.

edit: relating to development obviously.


----------



## Kanda (Jan 31, 2012)

I give about as much respect to BTEC as I do degree's... Not a lot. But I am not in a position to employ 1st line staff so that doesn't mean much.

Examples of real world experience mean a fuckton more than any qualification in my experience (I don't even have an o level though)


----------



## grit (Jan 31, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I give about as much respect to BTEC as I do degree's... Not a lot. But I am not in a position to employ 1st line staff so that doesn't mean much.
> 
> Examples of real world experience mean a fuckton more than any qualification in my experience (I don't even have an o level though)



Yeah real work experience trumps all, even if its unpaid. In addition  a good final year project can be enough when interviewing juniors.


----------



## Kanda (Jan 31, 2012)

Bob is right re: certifications from people like MS/Cisco etc but they still don't really help unless it's entry level if you don't have real world experience....


----------



## Kanda (Jan 31, 2012)

VMware and good Cisco is where you need to be aiming I think. Linux a good plus.


----------



## grit (Jan 31, 2012)

Kanda said:


> VMware and good Cisco is where you need to be aiming I think. Linux a good plus.



Investing the time and money into such certs can be a bit dodgy if you dont know what exactly you want to do though..


----------



## Kanda (Feb 1, 2012)

grit said:


> Investing the time and money into such certs can be a bit dodgy if you dont know what exactly you want to do though..



Yeah, true. Entry level I'd go win7 and VDI


----------



## grit (Feb 1, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Yeah, true. Entry level I'd go win7 and VDI



Entry level, *what* though?


----------



## Kanda (Feb 1, 2012)

To a job in IT. When I mentioned the skills above, I was thinking too far ahead..

Basic admin Cisco is a doddle though once you've done it for real for a while.


----------



## grit (Feb 1, 2012)

Kanda said:


> To a job in IT. When I mentioned the skills above, I was thinking too far ahead..



Software development, system administration, support....?


----------



## Kanda (Feb 1, 2012)

grit said:


> Software development, system administration, support....?



Development from a BTEC?

Long paths etc...depends on the course.


----------



## Radar (Feb 1, 2012)

cisco quals can be farmed though through unscrupulous training companies.

My boss had people in before he hired me who claimed to be CCIEs that couldn't fire a 2500 up out of the box and setup a basic ethernet/serial network from scratch.  Anyone who knows anything about cisco knows that the lab requirements of a pukka CCIE are extensive and the odds of anyone who had such a basic hole in their experience actually having a genuine CCIE were nigh on zero.

If you walk into your interview and get faced with a lab then at least you know the guy doing the hiring has a good idea of what makes a good network eng, that in itself is worth a lot when deciding if you want to accept the position.

To repeat the mantra, "Experience is king"


----------



## izz (Feb 3, 2012)

To what extent is experience useful though, my perception is IT can be quite ageist. Having just turned 50 I was dismayed to hear one of our contractors say "No IT's not ageist at all, I've known guys in their 40s find work."


----------



## Kanda (Feb 4, 2012)

izz said:


> To what extent is experience useful though, my perception is IT can be quite ageist. Having just turned 50 I was dismayed to hear one of our contractors say "No IT's not ageist at all, I've known guys in their 40s find work."


 
If you're 50 and have a career in IT, surely you're in either a CTO or board level role?

..if you're not, why not?


----------



## grit (Feb 4, 2012)

izz said:


> To what extent is experience useful though, my perception is IT can be quite ageist. Having just turned 50 I was dismayed to hear one of our contractors say "No IT's not ageist at all, I've known guys in their 40s find work."


 
Its just a symptom of a very young industry, a lot of the older people in IT will be "lifers".

IT is one of the few industries where people genuinely are not that concerned with demographics, its rare to find people that can do the job well that they cant be picky


----------



## ruffneck23 (Feb 4, 2012)

Pingu said:


> a good support person - good communicator, ability to bullshit, *aptitude for eating mars bars whilsttyping and talking at the same time*.


 

do you know me in rl ?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 4, 2012)

grit said:


> I dont agree regarding regarding a comp sci degree, depending on the university you can at least get a junior doing some basic bug fix commits pretty quickly. They are also in a far better position to tackle advanced topics.
> 
> edit: relating to development obviously.


Barely. The code they know is either flavour of the month web tech or the old and crap way of writing Java/C#. You throw a new graduate at a C# project that's been done using dependency injection and test driven development on a MVC model and they'll look at it as if it's greek.

The same goes for SharePoint development, Entity Framework or even LINQ.

That's assuming that your Grad is even taught in the language you intend to use...


----------



## Helen Back (Feb 4, 2012)

I used to program in Basic on the Spectrum and the Amstrad CPC-464 if that helps...?


----------



## grit (Feb 4, 2012)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Barely. The code they know is either flavour of the month web tech or the old and crap way of writing Java/C#. You throw a new graduate at a C# project that's been done using dependency injection and test driven development on a MVC model and they'll look at it as if it's greek.
> 
> The same goes for SharePoint development, Entity Framework or even LINQ.
> 
> That's assuming that your Grad is even taught in the language you intend to use...


 
I would expect a comp sci graduate being able to write in C++ and Java/C#. Everyone has to learn frameworks its common to change jobs and be using a different architecture. For anyone it takes about 3 weeks to a month to get them productive and then at about the 3 month mark they should be making very worthwhile commits.

I'm not saying all graduates would be capable of this, but good comp sci grads would be ( *generally* more so than other degrees in my experience).


----------



## Pingu (Feb 5, 2012)

ruffneck23 said:


> do you know me in rl ?


 
i have worked 1st line support and was awesome at it. i could do a password reset whilst opening a can of coke, unwraping a mars bar and making arrangements with collegues abt wether to go to the pub at lunchime. ON an AS400 i was king of the messing with users heads by moving their jobs into QBATCH and then timing things so that the switch back to QINTER occurred just as they got through to the helpdesk. Happy days


----------



## ruffneck23 (Feb 5, 2012)

Its been a while since i was on 1st line lol , I'm more 2nd / 3rd line now so very rarely go on the phone , except i do still seem to be getting through a hell of a lot of mars bars.....


----------



## Pingu (Feb 5, 2012)

my IT career went

helpdesk...1st line..2nd line...sme (subject matter expert).....Systems analyst....busines analyst...systems architect....project manager\solutions architect....consultant.

nowadays I ensure we deliver our projects properly so whilst i retain some technical cpability my current role is a mix of HR\programme management\technical consultancy at a high level\financial management of projects and ensureing at a company level we are efficient\account managemnt (the bit I currently enjoy most as it seems to consist of taking people out for meals a lot at someone elses expense) plus about 34 other things.

i would like to go back to the simlpicity of tech support but if i ws being hinest i like the money I can earn now which mens i can eat king size mars bars whilst on the phone to people


----------



## izz (Feb 5, 2012)

Kanda said:


> If you're 50 and have a career in IT, surely you're in either a CTO or board level role?
> 
> ..if you're not, why not?


 

A few reasons, including preferring the techy side of IT to any other, letting promotion opportunities pass me by because of other commitments, etc.


----------



## izz (Feb 5, 2012)

grit said:


> Its just a symptom of a very young industry, a lot of the older people in IT will be "lifers".
> 
> IT is one of the few industries where people genuinely are not that concerned with demographics, its rare to find people that can do the job well that they cant be picky


 
Well this is good to hear grit, but one of the projects I was on, I witnessed the manager sifting through a pile of CVs and was horrified to hear him sifting out anyone over 40.

Hopefully he was just the Token Twat


----------



## Radar (Feb 5, 2012)

izz said:


> Well this is good to hear grit, but one of the projects I was on, I witnessed the manager sifting through a pile of CVs and was horrified to hear him sifting out anyone over 40.


So you casually mentioned he was leaving the company open to prosecution under the UK's age discrimination legislation, or perhaps contacted HR or used your whistle-blowers facilities if available ??


----------



## izz (Feb 5, 2012)

Radar said:


> So you casually mentioned he was leaving the company open to prosecution under the UK's age discrimination legislation, or perhaps contacted HR or used your whistle-blowers facilities if available ??


 
Fuck no, I kept quiet in the hope he hadn't noticed I was one of those strange women things.


----------



## Helen Back (Feb 5, 2012)

izz said:


> Well this is good to hear grit, but one of the projects I was on, I witnessed the manager sifting through a pile of CVs and was horrified to hear him sifting out anyone over 40.
> 
> Hopefully he was just the Token Twat


 
I've always known employers could still discriminate on whatever graounds they liked, just not openly is all that's changed. If challenged he would have given some other (perfectly legal) reason. After all, when it comes down to it it's still just someone's opinion that you're a likely candidate for the job, isn't it?


----------



## grit (Feb 5, 2012)

Helen Back said:


> I've always known employers could still discriminate on whatever graounds they liked, just not openly is all that's changed. If challenged he would have given some other (perfectly legal) reason. After all, when it comes down to it it's still just someone's opinion that you're a likely candidate for the job, isn't it?


 
Yeah pretty much you cant do anything about it.


----------

