# Is it too late?



## frogwoman (Jul 24, 2022)

The fact that we've been experiencing temperatures that were only predicted for 2040 makes me wonder if it's too late to do anything about it? Not that it shouldn't be stopped from getting worse, I'm not arguing that. Just feeling depressed about everything.


----------



## JimW (Jul 24, 2022)

Feels that way. Good news is partial and all sorts of iceberg size disasters are bearing down, no real will to address it and blindness to the need for fundamental systemic change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> The fact that we've been experiencing temperatures that were only predicted for 2040 makes me wonder if it's too late to do anything about it? Not that it shouldn't be stopped from getting worse, I'm not arguing that. Just feeling depressed about everything.


I think it is but that doesn't mean nothing should be done. Like if you're crashing a car you'd try to steer it away from a cliff or tree, to minimise your injuries. 

The problem is I think we've passed the tipping point where we're masters of our own destiny, where human action can halt emissions. The melting permafrost and methane bubbling out of the Arctic seas suggests to me the even if we stopped our emissions there are a load we cannot deal with. And when the Arctic methane hydrates beneath the sea melt, well, the stars will be right and r'lyeh and great cthulhu will arise to scour the earth


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

If you want to try and avoid despair about the climate emergency, if only so as to be able to keep trying to do something, read this novel.


----------



## campanula (Jul 24, 2022)

There will be no significant attempts to limit environmental catastrophe until enough private property has been damaged. Not property owned or used by the impoverished global south of course...but when we have massive flooding as the Thames barrier collapses, there might be something on offer apart from the daily game of handwringo. The solutions are unpalatable to everyone who has gotten used to driving around, flying off on holiday and expecting energy at the flick of a switch.


----------



## LDC (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> The fact that we've been experiencing temperatures that were only predicted for 2040 makes me wonder if it's too late to do anything about it? Not that it shouldn't be stopped from getting worse, I'm not arguing that. Just feeling depressed about everything.



I don't have a good grip on the specific science with it all, but my understanding is yes and no. Yes it's too late to stop some pretty terrible things happening, but no, it's not too late to stop more terrible things, and so there's stuff worth fighting for now. But I get your depression with it, it does seem it's all happening faster than the predictions said. I find the wildfires just horrendous to read about and watch, more than other stuff. Maybe it's the loss of habitat and animals, and the personal loss of homes that get me, feels much more 'real' than some of the other things we hear about.

I think the next decades are going to be _very _grim for many more people than before (of course they are for plenty already) on a number of fronts. The positive side is I think this will open up possibilities for dramatic and far reaching change - hopefully for the better, but how that will pan out in reality will be complex.

I think in some of Europe we'll be OK, although in central Europe it's more than possible the current Ukraine war will expand geographically, and Southern Spain, Italy and Greece etc. will become largely uninhabitable in some of the rural and water resource poor areas. I think the US will break apart, if not in name then practically. Anyway, you get the picture!


----------



## LDC (Jul 24, 2022)

A380 said:


> If you want to try and avoid despair about the climate emergency, if only so as to be able to keep trying to do something, read this novel.
> 
> View attachment 334208



Mixed though, there's some hope in that book, but on the background of widespread death and destruction happening first!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2022)

campanula said:


> There will be no significant attempts to limit environmental catastrophe until enough private property has been damaged. Not property owned or used by the impoverished global south of course...but when we have massive flooding as the Thames barrier collapses, there might be something on offer apart from the daily game of handwringo. The solutions are unpalatable to everyone who has gotten used to driving around, flying off on holiday and expecting energy at the flick of a switch.


Didn't work with the flooding of new york


----------



## LDC (Jul 24, 2022)

campanula said:


> The solutions are unpalatable to everyone who has gotten used to driving around, flying off on holiday and expecting energy at the flick of a switch.



Some argue for a 'green authoritarianism', which I think is entirely within the realms of happening if things get bad quickly. There does need to be a massive shift in culture, but it's very hard to imagine that happening without it being catalyzed by some widespread disasters like crop failures, death, huge fires, etc.

Some of that is my argument for making personal changes like stopping/cutting back on flying, eating less meat, etc. It's less about the actual impact on emissions and more about normalizing something and trying to make it more common and palatable for people.

I do agree with you, I think the state and capital will delay until the last possible moment, by which point all that will be left as an option is some horrendous scarcity and authoritarian response.

It's not brilliant but I think this book is a pretty interesting read on the options facing us Verso

This review basically covers it Four Futures: Life After Capitalism review – will robots bring utopia or terror?


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

LDC said:


> Mixed though, there's some hope in that book, but on the background of widespread death and destruction happening first!


Indeed, I think one of the  points Robinson was trying to make is that it will take some kind of catastrophe for the world to take this seriously.



Spoiler



The first chapter is one of the bleakest pieces of fiction I have read, but the rest of the book isn't. It's more of. polemic than a true novel, although, like a lot of Robinson's work a main story line is barely alluded to and you have to fill it in yourself - see also Red Moon. [Spolier]


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 24, 2022)

I equate my own efforts to trying to remove a small splinter from a foot that is due to be  amputated shortly - well meaning but fundamentally pointless.

I still do them though if only for my own sanity


----------



## LDC (Jul 24, 2022)

Yeah I don't read novels much, and definitely not sci-fi (although this is called cli-fi isn't it!?) but really 'enjoyed' that one. Yes, brutal opening chapter.


----------



## LDC (Jul 24, 2022)

In case anyone is interested, there's this article on climate change some of us are reading and discussing this coming week Reading Group - Angry Workers









						Revolutionary Strategy in a Warming World (Malm, 2016)
					

How can climate justice activists stop capitalism’s drive to catastrophe? The author of Fossil Capital considers lessons from past revolutions and proposes an action program for today. Andreas Malm…




					cominsitu.wordpress.com
				




There's this 'Disaster and dilemma' by Kosmoprolet that covers some of the possibilities of an authoritarian response to climate crisis Desaster und Dilemma - Reflexionen über ökologische Katastrophe und Klimabewegung | Kosmoprolet

Have attached a translation here.


----------



## weltweit (Jul 24, 2022)

As regards stopping putting more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere no we are not too late, but as has been mentioned quite a lot of damage has and is still being done. 

There are some crazy ideas, like putting a sun shade into lower earth orbit to reduce the amount of sun that gets through. In the realm of crazy at the moment as is the idea of taking CO2 out of the atmosphere by scrubbing the very air although as technology develops this may prove viable.     

I think we need more countries leading by example, proving that one can profitably achieve zero emissions and then offering any resulting technology to other emitters in the hope they will follow. 

For the UK I am encouraged by offshore floating wind and solar, and RR's development of small modular reactors, also larger nuclear schemes but it has been calculated that we are way behind on an annual basis replacing dirty energy with clean and if we don't get a move on the whole project will be put into question.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 24, 2022)

I vacillate between despair and fatalistic acceptance that this is how it goes. We are just the most successful organism on the planet and this is where such success leads us.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2022)

I was just thinking about this. Truth is that right now is the first time I’ve ever personally felt frightened of the consequences, not for the future or other people but for my own life & safety. I live in a forest which thousands of people go to to walk and also to hang out making barbecues and everything all around me is so parched, strawlike, even the trees are brittle and yellowing now, and the national trust who owns the place put up signs the other day (never seen them before) saying high risk of fire no bbqs. It’s not something I’ve ever thought of as remotely likely before but yeah, just a bit scary. Not as scary as crop failure obvs.


----------



## stavros (Jul 24, 2022)

I strongly suspect we are fucked, but it's not certain yet how quickly and how hard we will be fucked. I conceivably have another 30-40 years on this planet, so I may well see worse than the majority that frequent these boards.


----------



## MC SUPERRAVI (Jul 24, 2022)

mate. this is the end of white privilege. even the rich people have been living in shitholes forever. 
are humans going to be wiped out? no 
is Europe going to be like China? yes
it's only scary for the top 5%. it's normal for the rest of the world. it sucked being in the capital of the empire anyway. life is going to be hot and shitty, 
once the old people in charge die there will be a better hope. it's been the same people in charge for 30 years. age of aquarius is over, pisces is coming in hot. dolphins baby


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

stavros said:


> I strongly suspect we are fucked, but it's not certain yet how quickly and how hard we will be fucked. I conceivably have another 30-40 years on this planet, so I may well see worse than the majority that frequent these boards.



So long enough for our grandchildren to put you on trial in the remains of Wembley Stadium then…


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

MC SUPERRAVI said:


> mate. this is the end of white privilege. even the rich people have been living in shitholes forever.
> are humans going to be wiped out? no
> is Europe going to be like China? yes
> it's only scary for the top 5%. it's normal for the rest of the world. it sucked being in the capital of the empire anyway. life is going to be hot and shitty,
> once the old people in charge die there will be a better hope. it's been the same people in charge for 30 years. age of aquarius is over, pisces is coming in hot. dolphins baby



Was about to respond highlighting the abject bollocks of this post. Then saw you poll thread so no longer need to bother…


----------



## stavros (Jul 24, 2022)

A380 said:


> So long enough for our grandchildren to put you on trial in the remains of Wembley Stadium then…


They're building the facilities already.


----------



## Humberto (Jul 24, 2022)

Whilst politicians seem more interested in cancelling our rights and freedoms and undermining democracy, it's difficult to see that we have a fighting chance of avoiding the worst case scenarios. It seems we are just drifting into it whilst the ruling class gorge themselves on what remains as long as they can. I'm not quite despondent but something will have to change, and the ruling class seem to be getting away with blocking that change and causing chaos to suit their greedy aims.


----------



## MC SUPERRAVI (Jul 24, 2022)

A380 said:


> Was about to respond highlighting the abject bollocks of this post. Then saw you poll thread so no longer need to bother…


spot the middle class white person


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jul 24, 2022)

weltweit said:


> As regards stopping putting more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere no we are not too late, but as has been mentioned quite a lot of damage has and is still being done.
> 
> There are some crazy ideas, like putting a sun shade into lower earth orbit to reduce the amount of sun that gets through. In the realm of crazy at the moment as is the idea of taking CO2 out of the atmosphere by scrubbing the very air although as technology develops this may prove viable.
> 
> ...



A nuclear sub power plant puts out about 200MW, which presumably is what the RR power units are.

It took a couple of centuries to get to where we are, and it is going to take decades to even partially sort it. I think we need to learn to live with the consequences in the meantime.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jul 24, 2022)

stavros said:


> I strongly suspect we are fucked, but it's not certain yet how quickly and how hard we will be fucked. *I conceivably have another 30-40 years *on this planet, so I may well see worse than the majority that frequent these boards.



I have probably half of that, but still expect to see things worsen considerably.


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

MC SUPERRAVI said:


> spot the middle class white person


Bit fish in a barrel on here TBF.

But even I was still proper working class I'd have still identified you as a returner twat...


----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)

The entire northern hemisphere is under the broiler right now. It’ll’ve been in the low 40’s in Utqiaqvik today…


----------



## yield (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> The fact that we've been experiencing temperatures that were only predicted for 2040 makes me wonder if it's too late to do anything about it?



Do these heat waves mean climate change is happening faster than expected?
July 21, 2022


> Millions of people are now experiencing the effects of climate change firsthand. Blistering heat waves have smashed temperature records around the globe this summer, scorching crops, knocking out power, fueling wildfires, buckling roads and runways, and likely killing thousands across Europe alone.





> The dizzyingly quick shift from an abstract threat to an era of tumbling temperature records, megadroughts, and pervasive fires has many people wondering: is climate change unfolding faster than scientists had expected? Are these extreme events more extreme than studies had predicted they would be, given the levels of greenhouse gases now in the atmosphere?





> As it happens, those are two distinct questions, with different and nuanced answers.





> For the most part, the computer models used to simulate how the planet responds to rising greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere aren’t wildly off the mark, especially considering that they aren’t geared for predicting regional temperature extremes. But the recent pileup of very hot heat waves does have some scientists wondering whether models could be underestimating the frequency and intensity of such events, whether some factors are playing more significant roles than represented in certain models, and what it all may mean for our climate conditions in the coming decades.






frogwoman said:


> Not that it shouldn't be stopped from getting worse, I'm not arguing that. Just feeling depressed about everything.


It's never too late. The ruling class will not freely give up their titles and privileges.

"The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying, and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid diseases appear." - Antonio Gramsci


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 24, 2022)

I don’t see revolution happening in my lifetime though and past experience suggests that it just creates a new 'ruling class', let alone do anything for the environment. It's hard not to be fatalistic. I feel very down tbh


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 24, 2022)

In the mean time I think far from the ruling class's rights and privileges being threatened attacks on abortion, gay marriage and even things like the minimum wage and right to strike are not far away.


----------



## maomao (Jul 24, 2022)

bcuster said:


> The entire northern hemisphere is under the broiler right now. It’ll’ve been in the low 40’s in Utqiaqvik today…


Fahrenheit.


----------



## MC SUPERRAVI (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> I don’t see revolution happening in my lifetime though and past experience suggests that it just creates a new 'ruling class', let alone do anything for the environment. It's hard not to be fatalistic. I feel very down tbh


have you not seen how much the world has changed in the last 40 years?
China have changed their system twice since the 80s, Africa and South Asia where most of the people are still don't have proper systems in place, it's still all open in the main parts of the world


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2022)

Proper systems! Like what we’ve got over here.


----------



## Humberto (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> In the mean time I think far from the ruling class's rights and privileges being threatened attacks on abortion, gay marriage and even things like the minimum wage and right to strike are not far away.


And the rising police brutality to go with it. Conspiracism and the associated problems too undermining efforts to support positive moves to deal with it.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 24, 2022)

Think I've posted this before, and I've never actually listened to/read most of their stuff, but Live Like the World is Dying seems like a reasonable perspective on this subject: About, Live Like the World is Dying

Has anyone ever actually read Desert? (I haven't read it all the way through myself.)


----------



## LDC (Jul 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Think I've posted this before, and I've never actually listened to/read most of their stuff, but Live Like the World is Dying seems like a reasonable perspective on this subject: About, Live Like the World is Dying
> 
> Has anyone ever actually read Desert? (I haven't read it all the way through myself.)



Yeah, not for ages though. Broadly says we're fucked and give up on hope as it's pseudo-religious and an impediment, but don't give up on the possibility of change; largely that'll happen in areas that are 'peripheral' to capital, and that have some collective memory and practical ability to survive the retreat/collapse of state and capital. And that some of the collapse will also open up new spaces for people to rediscover better ways of living. Something like that? Here for those of you that haven't seen it Desert

I nearly mentioned the quote in the first page earlier... “It’s not the despair — I can handle the despair. It’s the hope I can’t handle.”


----------



## yield (Jul 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Think I've posted this before, and I've never actually listened to/read most of their stuff, but Live Like the World is Dying seems like a reasonable perspective on this subject: About, Live Like the World is Dying
> 
> Has anyone ever actually read Desert? (I haven't read it all the way through myself.)


Margaret Killjoy is great, they did









						Mythmakers & Lawbreakers: Anarchist Writers on Fiction : Killjoy, Margaret : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

Book Mythmakers & Lawbreakers: Anarchist Writers on Fiction, edited by Margaret Killjoy, AK Press, Oakland, 2009, ISBN 978-1-84935-002-0, license CC BY-NC-SA...



					archive.org
				




Will read through later


----------



## yield (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> In the mean time I think far from the ruling class's rights and privileges being threatened attacks on abortion, gay marriage and even things like the minimum wage and right to strike are not far away.


There are scaleable solutions to the energy crisis. The problem is the political will. 

Energy efficiency guru Amory Lovins: ‘It’s the largest, cheapest, safest, cleanest way to address the crisis’
Guardian. Sat 26 Mar 2022


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 24, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, not for ages though. Broadly says we're fucked and give up on hope as it's pseudo-religious and an impediment, but not on the possibility of change; largely that'll happen in areas that are 'peripheral' to capital, and that have some collective memory and practical ability to survive the retreat/collapse of state and capital. And that some of the collapse will also open up new spaces for people to rediscover better ways of living. Something like that? Here for those of you that haven't seen it Desert
> 
> I nearly mentioned the quote in the first page earlier... “It’s not the despair — I can handle the despair. It’s the hope I can’t handle.”


Yeah, from what I've seen of it I wasn't too impressed the first time round, but as time goes by it feels harder and harder to refute the "we're fucked" bit. Feels like it may be the kind of text where even if you disagree with it, thinking about why and how you disagree with it might be productive?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 24, 2022)

I don’t think humanity is heading for extinction but it seems harder and harder to stop a future in which too many other animals are.  not to mention millions of people dying due to water shortages, extreme heat etc


----------



## A380 (Jul 24, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> I don’t think humanity is heading for extinction but it seems harder and harder to stop a future in which too many other animals are.  not to mention millions of people dying due to water shortages, extreme heat etc


I think the most likley outcome is mass extinctions of plants and animals. Billions less humans than now and a loss of industrial society,


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 24, 2022)

A380 said:


> If you want to try and avoid despair about the climate emergency, if only so as to be able to keep trying to do something, read this novel.
> 
> View attachment 334208



It was probably a mistake to read this so soon after 40 degrees here. It's mostly making me angry. Started it a few days ago.

We'll see how it ends up. It's a funny old book, half story and half rant asking what the fuck, and telling us we have the tools to change already.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Jul 24, 2022)

I heard a good analogy last night:

Imagine dice with the 6 face being an extreme weather event.

(The summer of 77 or whatever, before my time.)


We are now playing with die that have more than one 6 face, meaning sequences of 6s becoming more and more likely. Added to which it's not random probability an extreme weather event increases that occurrence of more.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Jul 24, 2022)

Not only but also, I'm fairly worried that we are going to see the world's largest humanitarian crisis, of all time, within the next 12 months


----------



## weltweit (Jul 24, 2022)

For it not to be too late I think there has to be a constant media interest in the progress towards zero, there was interest at the time of Glasgow but then there was Covid 19 and then there was Ukraine which both seem to have banished climate off the front pages altogether. 

This is not good, we need constant pressure on the decision makers, daily stories, weekly pressure, regular updates as to progress. 

In short we need those in power to know that we the electorate care deeply about achieving net zero and going further, that it matters, that they will be held to account for their progress or lack of it.


----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)

Greta Thunberg and Al Gore react as climate change bakes Europe with record heat
					

Greta Thunberg and Al Gore, two of the world's leading voices in the fight against climate change, reacted Tuesday to the record-setting heat wave and wildfires gripping Europe.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)




----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)

Greenland hit with 'unusually extensive' melting of ice sheet, boosting sea levels, scientists say
					

Rapid melting can impact sea level rise and also countries that rely on seasonal water supply from melting glaciers, said scientist William Lipscomb.




					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 24, 2022)

When does it stop being “unusually extensive” and just become usual


----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> When does it stop being “unusually extensive” and just become usual


55 in Nuuk as I type this...


----------



## friedaweed (Jul 24, 2022)

I think it'll all be over when Greta melts. Until then let's just enjoy the summer


----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)

I had, after certain point, considered Greenland as a possible escape from global Warming. I've no I dea what is involved in immigration to Greenland


----------



## kebabking (Jul 24, 2022)

bcuster said:


> I had, after certain point, considered Greenland as a possible escape from global Warming. I've no I dea what is involved in immigration to Greenland



Don't go. Great in the winter, if you like astonishingly cold temperatures - but in the summer it's an absolute midgefest: you'll be eaten alive, and if you're not, you'll shoot yourself to avoid being eaten alive.


----------



## bcuster (Jul 24, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Don't go. Great in the winter, if you like astonishingly cold temperatures - but in the summer it's an absolute midgefest: you'll be eaten alive, and if you're not, you'll shoot yourself to avoid being eaten alive.


I did not know that. I've heard that the roads are quite bad...


----------



## Lorca (Jul 25, 2022)

I believe we're fucked too, not least because of some of the factors already discussed here, but also worryingly, hardly anyone outside of bio-sciences (with to my knowledge an exception of monbiot) seems to be talking about severe top-soil degradation/erosion due to natural erosion and exacerbated by over use of nitrites, acidification, drought/flooding, removal of hedges to create bigger fields, illegal logging/deforestation etc etc etc etc. Ultimately it's driven by the intense pressure on arable land to feed billions of people (and livestock) imo. We are talking about the planet losing a football field of soil every 5 seconds and even the UN are now talking about losing 10% of crop yields by 2050 (a huge number) and serious crop failiures within 80 to 100 harvests, well within many children's lifetimes. When/if that happens, it shouldn't really need spelling out that we're in deep trouble given that 95% of our food comes from the soil. Everything is connected I guess.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2022)

I'm feeling so upset when thinking of the large numbers of animals going extinct due to climate change. It's maybe not the worst thing combined with all the other effects but just seems so sad.


----------



## Ming (Jul 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I think it is but that doesn't mean nothing should be done. Like if you're crashing a car you'd try to steer it away from a cliff or tree, to minimise your injuries.
> 
> The problem is I think we've passed the tipping point where we're masters of our own destiny, where human action can halt emissions. The melting permafrost and methane bubbling out of the Arctic seas suggests to me the even if we stopped our emissions there are a load we cannot deal with. And when the Arctic methane hydrates beneath the sea melt, well, the stars will be right and r'lyeh and great cthulhu will arise to scour the earth


sick!!


----------



## Ming (Jul 25, 2022)

campanula said:


> There will be no significant attempts to limit environmental catastrophe until enough private property has been damaged. Not property owned or used by the impoverished global south of course...but when we have massive flooding as the Thames barrier collapses, there might be something on offer apart from the daily game of handwringo. The solutions are unpalatable to everyone who has gotten used to driving around, flying off on holiday and expecting energy at the flick of a switch.


This is the problem i think. The powers that be realise people are energy hogs who expect power at the flick of a switch 24/7 and 365 and won’t accept anything less. So fuck ‘em. Make hay while the sun shines.


----------



## Ming (Jul 25, 2022)

I wonder if this issue is having an influence on immigration and border policies in the Northern developed temperate zone countries. Trump‘s wall or sending people to Rwanda. Because when it really kicks in people will head away from the equator out of necessity.


----------



## bcuster (Jul 25, 2022)

The US tried to buy Greenland a couple of years ago.  Was that a hedge against global warming or simple case of  Trump madness?


----------



## Humberto (Jul 25, 2022)

bcuster said:


> The US tried to buy Greenland a couple of years ago.  Was that a hedge against global warming or simple case of  Trump madness?



I'd be surprised if they weren't offering Scandinavia an economic compact, and a racial authoritarian one too for their support.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Superdupastupor said:


> (The summer of 77 or whatever, before my time.)


It was the summer of '76. '77 was relatively disappointing.

I've been going about patronising younger people (something that I really like doing), saying that the issue in '76 was the length of time we went without rain rather than the freakish temperatures we saw at the beginning of last week. In my memory (I was 13 in '76) temperatures rarely got above 80f, that summer but the radio the other day reminded me that there were days when it reached about 36-37 celsius, which I also kind of remember when I think about it. Many shite summers followed '76, and. as far as I can recall, only '95 and the summer of about 4 years ago (2018?) came close to matching it in terms of extended dry periods (and my tan.)

What any of this means in terms of climate change I have no idea.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

Of course it's too late. And furthermore, those at the levers of change apparently don't give a fuck. I'm guessing the ending of the Planet of the Apes is the correct one.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Don't go. Great in the winter, if you like astonishingly cold temperatures - but in the summer it's an absolute midgefest: you'll be eaten alive, and if you're not, you'll shoot yourself to avoid being eaten alive.


I found Helsinki to be like that in summer '88 and again in '97. The fucking bastards bite you through your clothing.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it's too late. And furthermore, those at the levers of change apparently don't give a fuck. I'm guessing the ending of the Planet of the Apes is the correct one.


So where does this leave your 'anarchist communism' as the destination of the working class?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> So where does this leave your 'anarchist communism' as the destination of the working class?


Is this a rhetorical question?


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is this a rhetorical question?


I'm just recalling what you say in the (I think) Anarchist Bookfair thread (at least I think it was you.)

But anyway, if things are as bad as people seem to think, it doesn't seem the future is favourable for communism of any kind. But I've long thought that organised working class politics is destinerd to be mainly defensive, with the question of power seemingly being off the agenda.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I'm just recalling what you say in the (I think) Anarchist Bookfair thread (at leat I think it was you.)
> 
> But anyway, if things are as bad as people seem to think, it doesn't seem the future is favourable for communism of any kind. But I've long thought that organised working class politics is mainly defensive.


You've done this a few times now. It's fine. I explained before but I don't mind explaining again. So here goes:

What I think is just and right is usually beyond my control. Sometimes those ruling over me may make decisions I agree with, often not. I'll never be in that club though. 
I think organised working class politics would probably favour a different outcome on the environment than a profit driven ideology does.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You've done this a few times now. It's fine. I explained before but I don't mind explaining again. So here goes:
> 
> What I think is just and right is usually beyond my control. Sometimes those ruling over me may make decisions I agree with, often not. I'll never be in that club though.
> I think organised working class politics would probably favour a different outcome on the environment than a profit driven ideology does.


I'm not sure I have done it a few times, but what you say about it being too late with regard to the environment does clearly contradict your optimism about the working class ending up in an anarchist-communist society (unless it's an anarchist-communist society existing on a burnt-out, storm-ridden etc earth.)

It probably isn't worth an extended debate, however.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> The fact that we've been experiencing temperatures that were only predicted for 2040 makes me wonder if it's too late to do anything about it?



I wasn’t aware of that (the 2040 prediction bit).  There have always been a lot of different models with quite varying extremes and frequencies of those extremes.  Not a comforting thing.

I’m not sure what “too late” means, really, I can’t see that we could ever confidently work out that keeping fighting was useless without having some very clear signal of the kind we don’t have right now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I'm not sure I have done it a few times, but what you say about it being too late with regard to the environment does clearly contradict your optimism about the working class ending up in an anarchist-communist society (unless it's an anarchist-communist society existing on a burnt-out, storm-ridden etc earth.)
> 
> It probably isn't worth an extended debate, however.


I said an anarchist communist society was the RIGHTFUL destination of the working class.
Not sure what other predictions I made beyond that so no debate needed.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I said an anarchist communist society was the RIGHTFUL destination of the working class.



When the anarchist communist society comes, how do you see yourself spending your days (I’m assuming you don’t have yourself down for a merciful 6am neckshot)?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> When the anarchist communist society comes, how do you see yourself spending your days (I’m assuming you don’t have yourself down for a merciful 6am neckshot)?


Are we doing this?  
Maybe my work will be distributed more equitably so I get more time off? What do you fucking think?


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> When the anarchist communist society comes, how do you see yourself spending your days (I’m assuming you don’t have yourself down for a merciful 6am neckshot)?


Hopefully lying in a hammock, sweating, and wondering if these extreme temperatures are doing my chronic arthritis some good. Thankful that the right decisions on everything are arising spontaneously from thoroughly democratic street meetings and whatnot.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are we doing this?
> Maybe my work will be distributed more equitably so I get more time off? What do you fucking think?



I don’t know.  Sounds a bit like you think you’ll be doing something similar to now but a bit less of it.
Amused that you seem offended by the question.  Seems like what is being offered is a very important part of the picture.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Hopefully lying in a hammock, sweating, and wondering if these extreme temperatures are doing my chronic arthritis some good. Thankful that the right decisions on everything are arising spontaneously from thoroughly democratic street meetings and whatnot.


Which would be anarchist then. OK.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> I don’t know.  Sounds a bit like you think you’ll be doing something similar to now but a bit less of it.
> Amused that you seem offended by the question.  Seems like what is being offered is a very important part of the picture.


Offended lol. My life is under capitalism. As is yours. Maybe you gain from that? I don't.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which would be anarchist then. OK.


It's coming sometime, so maybe...

Anyway, cough, the climate...


----------



## Ming (Jul 25, 2022)

bcuster said:


> The US tried to buy Greenland a couple of years ago.  Was that a hedge against global warming or simple case of  Trump madness?


If you were a decision maker in high office and you knew you’d fucked up (say Rex Tillerson from Exxon) and you didn’t care about anything apart from your corporate fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits what would you do? But you knew it was coming down the line like an express train.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Offended lol. My life is under capitalism. As is yours. Maybe you gain from that? I don't.



I never had much of a go at living in a world without capitalism, so comparison is difficult.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> It's coming sometime, so maybe...
> 
> Anyway, cough, the climate...


We're all finished. Don't pretend I'm disagreeing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> I never had much of a go at living in a world without capitalism, so comparison is difficult.


Yet it doesn't prevent you from counter arguing. How is this so?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yet it doesn't prevent you from counter arguing. How is this so?



Have a little track back a few posts and see if you can find me arguing counter to anything.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> Have a little track back a few posts and see if you can find me arguing counter to anything.


Without me doing the work, if you're not counter arguing, why are you wasting my time?


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We're all finished. Don't pretend I'm disagreeing.


Even such a pessimistic, miserable cunt like me doesn't think we're finished,


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Even such a pessimistic, miserable cunt like me doesn't think we're finished,


I'm guessing you're older than me. I daren't say how much, but you're unlikely to get the full bill that my nine year old son will.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Without me doing the work, if you're not counter arguing, why are you wasting my time?



I can’t tell at this point what you’re confused about.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm guessing you're older than me. I daren't say how much, but you're unlikely to get the full bill that my nine year old son will.


Born in '63. I wish your son, and all other kids, all the luck in the world.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> I can’t tell at this point what you’re confused about.


I'm not confused about anything.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not confused about anything.



The thing with being human is that it can be so difficult to tell the good news from the bad news.


----------



## pug (Jul 25, 2022)

I find it strange.

I feel like I should do something, urgently, stop work, switch off the electricity, turn the car into a greenhouse or something.
But everyone just carries on as normal and so do I, like I'm waiting for permission.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 25, 2022)

pug said:


> I find it strange.
> 
> I feel like I should do something, urgently, stop work, switch off the electricity, turn the car into a greenhouse or something.
> But everyone just carries on as normal and so do I, like I'm waiting for permission.



Dunno whether it's lethargy or fatalism but, yeah, this.

In moments of despair, am grateful for activists around the globe, including the youth who have not succumbed to cynicism & the indigenous peoples who are at the front lines, they are the bravest of us.


----------



## co-op (Jul 25, 2022)

I can't see any way it isn't too late. 26 years of CoPs and GHG still rising, ffs. At the very basic minimum they needed to be falling a bit. I've worked in the building business retrofitting for energy efficiency and the stories I could tell you about failed initiatives, ducked standards, dodgy implementation - it's just shit all round, all the time. 

Most recent case for me; I've just been to a friends house because she had some boiler problem, it's a condensing boiler, I thought I'd check her return temperature because when I can be arsed I do things like that. Return temperature was 65 degrees ffs. These things (condensing boilers) were made mandatory in 2005 because they are 25% more efficient than the old ones - but they literally do not deliver one bit of that efficiency if the return temp is over 58 degrees and you only get all of it if the return is below 40. When was it installed? Last year. The fucking installers literally _never_ install in order to get efficiency. They haven't been trained to. Ask a heating engineers about getting the return down to condensing point and they'll look at you like you're speaking serbo-croat. This policy was introduced 17 years ago, how the fuck has no one noticed that it's delivering zero?  The exact same thing can be found in every single part of the construction industry on anything to do with sustainability - no one knows fuck all, nothing. No one gives a shit. 

A mate who is a HE says that they should have kept the old cast iron boilers because "at least they lasted 40 years", unlike modern combis which clap out in 10-15 (although strangely the exact same boilers last over 20 in Germany, but that's a whole other rant).


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

pug said:


> I find it strange.
> 
> I feel like I should do something, urgently, stop work, switch off the electricity, turn the car into a greenhouse or something.
> But everyone just carries on as normal and so do I, like I'm waiting for permission.



Are you any good with thorium reactors?


----------



## Bingoman (Jul 26, 2022)

England are in the early stages of a drought according to the Environment agency


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 26, 2022)

bcuster said:


> The US tried to buy Greenland a couple of years ago.  Was that a hedge against global warming or simple case of  Trump madness?


No, US ownership of Greenland is  a long-term military and geopolitical strategic goal of the us hard right. It guards the north-eastern approaches to North America over the north pole.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 26, 2022)

Idris2002 said:


> No, US ownership of Greenland is  a long-term military and geopolitical strategic goal of the us hard right. It guards the north-eastern approaches to North America over the north pole.


Not to mention possible treasure trove of minerals and/or fossil fuels


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 26, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> It was the summer of '76. '77 was relatively disappointing.
> 
> I've been going about patronising younger people (something that I really like doing), saying that the issue in '76 was the length of time we went without rain rather than the freakish temperatures we saw at the beginning of last week. In my memory (I was 13 in '76) temperatures rarely got above 80f, that summer but the radio the other day reminded me that there were days when it reached about 36-37 celsius, which I also kind of remember when I think about it. Many shite summers followed '76, and. as far as I can recall, only '95 and the summer of about 4 years ago (2018?) came close to matching it in terms of extended dry periods (and my tan.)
> 
> What any of this means in terms of climate change I have no idea.


Not forgetting that the heatwave in '76 lasted for ten weeks not 3 days.


----------



## girasol (Jul 26, 2022)

Yes it is too late and we were never going to make it, the system is too complex, intertwined and has too much momentum. It really is a case of millions of poor people will die, richest will do well and somehow humanity will adapt. That's what we are good at. It's not the first time a civilization collapses. The consolation, for me, is that nature will also adapt, and ultimately, the sun will explode 🌞😱 

And that's what I think when I'm feeling optimistic.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 26, 2022)

Does anyone else suspect that this is all inevitable and just a natural result of biological imperatives? Too much success for an organism leads to monocultural dominance of that species in all habitats, which destroys delicately balanced ecosystems and leads to overexploitation of resources, and then the extinction of not only the successful organism but of many others too. 
Not that I want to let humanity off the hook though…


----------



## bcuster (Jul 26, 2022)

girasol said:


> Yes it is too late and we were never going to make it, the system is too complex, intertwined and has too much momentum. It really is a case of millions of poor people will die, richest will do well and somehow humanity will adapt. That's what we are good at. It's not the first time a civilization collapses. The consolation, for me, is that nature will also adapt, and ultimately, the sun will explode 🌞😱
> 
> And that's what I think when I'm feeling optimistic.


the aztecs managed their environs not nearly as poorly as we have; and they became extinct.
. global warming is accelerating...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 27, 2022)

bcuster said:


> the aztecs managed their environs not nearly as poorly as we have; and they became extinct.
> . global warming is accelerating...




Are you thinking of the Maya?

Historians also dislike the term extinction or collapse for them, as while cities were abandoned for much debated reason the people continued to live in the area and still do. With some theories being the common people were just fucking done with the elites and spiked the fuckers in the face of various issues including drought and complicated sacrifice rituals.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not forgetting that the heatwave in '76 lasted for ten weeks not 3 days.


It seemed even longer than that at the time, although time passes a lot more slowly when you're a kid.


----------



## LDC (Jul 27, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Does anyone else suspect that this is all inevitable and just a natural result of biological imperatives? Too much success for an organism leads to monocultural dominance of that species in all habitats, which destroys delicately balanced ecosystems and leads to overexploitation of resources, and then the extinction of not only the successful organism but of many others too.
> Not that I want to let humanity off the hook though…



No. 

What do you mean by biological imperatives though? It's capitalism that's got us to this position, not biological imperatives surely?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 27, 2022)

LDC said:


> No.
> 
> What do you mean by biological imperatives though? It's capitalism that's got us to this position, not biological imperatives surely?


I’m sure capitalism has accelerated it for sure, but other civilisations have collapsed after overexploiting their resources


----------



## LDC (Jul 27, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> I’m sure capitalism has accelerated it for sure, but other civilisations have collapsed after overexploiting their resources



Yeah, for sure, but they were also exploitative and hierarchical as they developed in that way for various reasons, but _some _societies didn't collapse or over-exploit their ecological space, but were over taken/conquered/destroyed by the patriarchical/authoritarian/capitalist/etc. societies. So I think it's to do with certain forms of organisation and relationships rather than biological imperatives?


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 27, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> It seemed even longer than that at the time, although time passes a lot more slowly when you're a kid.


I don't remember it seeming to last that long. I was 13 at the time.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> I don't remember it seeming to last that long. I was 13 at the time.


Same age as me. I remember it was abnormally hot right through last few weeks at school, the 6 week holiday and still hot for a few weeks after we went back to school in September. But as I say, such a length of time seemed an eternity then, at least to me. 

I can remember all the number one's in the charts that summer as well, without looking it up.


----------



## story (Jul 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> I don't remember it seeming to last that long. I was 13 at the time.



We were down on the Romney Marshes that summer. It was hot and sunny and the grass on the marshes went golden yellow and the sheep put their heads through the fence to find something to eat, but I don’t recall it being too hot, I guess because the winds never stop blowing there for very long. The winter winds come from the Steppes*, like a knife between the shoulder blades.



* I don’t know if this is true and I don’t care, because it _feels_ true.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 28, 2022)

Fucked up.









						Hidden Menace: Massive methane leaks speed up climate change
					

LENORAH, Texas (AP) — To the naked eye, the Mako Compressor Station outside the dusty West Texas crossroads of Lenorah appears unremarkable, similar to tens of thousands of oil and gas operations scattered throughout the oil-rich Permian Basin.




					apnews.com


----------



## weltweit (Jul 28, 2022)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fucked up.


Yep, what a mess .. methane is also the issue attributed to livestock. Cows breathe it out through their noses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Yep, what a mess .. methane is also the issue attributed to livestock. Cows breathe it out through their noses.


an issue. not the issue.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 28, 2022)

It will be "too late" just as soon as the number of healthy adult humans becomes too small to support continued reproduction without serious inbreeding. Which could be a very small number if there are reliable supplies of sperm/eggs on ice.

Fatalism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't succumb to it, because that means the bastards win. They can't deny the reality of climate change any more, so now they have pivoted to spreading hopelessness, the idea that it's too late to take any meaningful action. The scum are willing to play the dirtiest mind games in order to convince us to all throw away our futures for the sake of their short-term gain.


----------



## Humberto (Jul 29, 2022)

It's over though isn't it? The people who govern us would rather see us dead than acknowledge we have any worth. Freedom to take vs freedom to have any humanity. It's a rampage. At precisely the wrong time.


----------



## Cid (Jul 29, 2022)

NoXion said:


> It will be "too late" just as soon as the number of healthy adult humans becomes too small to support continued reproduction without serious inbreeding. Which could be a very small number if there are reliable supplies of sperm/eggs on ice.
> 
> Fatalism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't succumb to it, because that means the bastards win. They can't deny the reality of climate change any more, so now they have pivoted to spreading hopelessness, the idea that it's too late to take any meaningful action. The scum are willing to play the dirtiest mind games in order to convince us to all throw away our futures for the sake of their short-term gain.



I think a viable human population is something like 4,500... So yeah, long way to go. And regardless there _will_ be people living/dying through any climate disaster, so got to keep minimising harms etc. There is literally no point in defeatism, and it's a betrayal of those who will follow and deal with worse. There are always solutions; they may be solutions to living in a radically altered world, they may be completely implausible at present (pretty convinced there are many _technically_ viable things we could look at, more in sense of political will), but they have to be explored, proposed, tested regardless. It will be a thankless task for those doing it, but you have to keep that engagement going.


----------



## nottsgirl (Jul 29, 2022)

It’s nearly too late. I wish I knew what I could do.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 29, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, for sure, but they were also exploitative and hierarchical as they developed in that way for various reasons, but _some _societies didn't collapse or over-exploit their ecological space, but were over taken/conquered/destroyed by the patriarchical/authoritarian/capitalist/etc. societies. So I think it's to do with certain forms of organisation and relationships rather than biological imperatives?



You could argue that exploitative and hierarchical organizational structures are part of our biological imperative.  Even our biological relatives like chimps tend to have hierarchies within their social groups.  It may just go with the type of social organization needed for us to survive, with a few exceptions in circumstances where there's no population pressures on land or food sources.  (That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make social systems more flat.)


----------



## ska invita (Jul 30, 2022)

"too late" and thensome according to this








						‘Soon the world will be unrecognisable’: is it still possible to prevent total climate meltdown?
					

Blistering heatwaves are just the start. We must accept how bad things are before we can head off global catastrophe, according to a leading UK scientist




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## LDC (Jul 30, 2022)

Shit that's not very optimistic! I mean realistic, but still. I wonder if we're going to see more militant responses to this?


----------



## nottsgirl (Jul 30, 2022)

You know how you put a lobster or a crab in a pot of cold water and heat it up and then they just die without any panic. That’s the human race. Two weeks ago wild fires raged, it was in the papers the next day, now? Nothing. Until next summer, when it’s worse, and the summer after that, etc etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> You know how you put a lobster or a crab in a pot of cold water and heat it up and then they just die without any panic. That’s the human race. Two weeks ago wild fires raged, it was in the papers the next day, now? Nothing. Until next summer, when it’s worse, and the summer after that, etc etc.


but love island and the lionesses and wagatha christie


----------



## NoXion (Jul 30, 2022)

LDC said:


> Shit that's not very optimistic! I mean realistic, but still. I wonder if we're going to see more militant responses to this?



I'm not convinced that screaming about the apocalypse is actually helpful. Doesn't seem to have worked any so far.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 30, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> It’s nearly too late. I wish I knew what I could do.


That’s the trouble - YOU can’t do anything  as an individual. Political will and systematic change is what’s needed, and even if we put the pressure on the powers that be as consumers/citizens, I fear that will still not be enough


----------



## muscovyduck (Jul 30, 2022)

bcuster said:


> The US tried to buy Greenland a couple of years ago.  Was that a hedge against global warming or simple case of  Trump madness?


It's partly about trade routes, I think it's something to do with ships being more able to travel through the artic nowadays. Because what we really need more of is disrupting the artic. There was a Half As Interesting youtube video on it recently


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> That’s the trouble - YOU can’t do anything  as an individual. Political will and systematic change is what’s needed, and even if we put the pressure on the powers that be as consumers/citizens, I fear that will still not be enough


There are lots of things we can do as individuals. Why do people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions and insist that nanny state makes rules to force us to change our behaviour? It's an absurd attitude.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 2, 2022)

We can do something as individuals but, unfortunately, governments and multinationals have much more power and influence over our energy sector than we do. And the billions in China and India have little power at all. Where do they get the wherewithal to purchase ground source heat pumps? Or solar panels? Etc etc.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We can do something as individuals but, unfortunately, governments and multinationals have much more power and influence over our energy sector than we do. And the billions in China and India have little power at all. Where do they get the wherewithal to purchase ground source heat pumps? Or solar panels? Etc etc.


Yes, but as individuals we can all add momentum to a chain reaction. For example, if you use an e-cargo bike for the school run or a big supermarket shop or taking a friend to the pub, car drivers will notice. You will overtake some of them and get a better parking spot. Some will copy you. E-cargo bikes then multiply, and their mere presence builds the case for bike friendly infrastructure, secure parking and so on, so local and central government react. Consumption of petrol and diesel in your area declines. This strengthens the hand of your government when they go to a climate conference to persuade the likes of China and India to do more. This is one of dozens of ways the individual can influence societal change. If you refuse to do these things until China and India or your own government make the first move.....it's just barmy. And hostile to your fellow humans and their descendants.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Yes, but as individuals we can all add momentum to a chain reaction. For example, if you use an e-cargo bike for the school run or a big supermarket shop or taking a friend to the pub, car drivers will notice. You will overtake some of them and get a better parking spot. Some will copy you. E-cargo bikes then multiply, and their mere presence builds the case for bike friendly infrastructure, secure parking and so on, so local and central government react. Consumption of petrol and diesel in your area declines. This strengthens the hand of your government when they go to a climate conference to persuade the likes of China and India to do more. This is one of dozens of ways the individual can influence societal change. If you refuse to do these things until China and India or your own government make the first move.....it's just barmy. And hostile to your fellow humans and their descendants.


I agree with you. Don't let the bastards grind you down. But being realistic, we have to persuade/cajole/force the powers that be to change their ways.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There are lots of things we can do as individuals. Why do people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions and insist that nanny state makes rules to force us to change our behaviour? It's an absurd attitude.


Unfortunately, it’s corporations that need to make the biggest efforts and they certainly need to be forced to do so. But, yes, people do need to be forced to change their behaviour. Persuasive argument’s not gonna work, is it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Yes, but as individuals we can all add momentum to a chain reaction. For example, if you use an e-cargo bike for the school run or a big supermarket shop or taking a friend to the pub, car drivers will notice. You will overtake some of them and get a better parking spot. Some will copy you. E-cargo bikes then multiply, and their mere presence builds the case for bike friendly infrastructure, secure parking and so on, so local and central government react. Consumption of petrol and diesel in your area declines. This strengthens the hand of your government when they go to a climate conference to persuade the likes of China and India to do more. This is one of dozens of ways the individual can influence societal change. If you refuse to do these things until China and India or your own government make the first move.....it's just barmy. And hostile to your fellow humans and their descendants.


It’s not barmy at all. You are just not thinking hard enough. You seem to think people are fully informed and educated enough to make the logical decision of consuming less and not fed propaganda by the corporations and their lapdog media. How naive


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

So you, an individual, are saying that you can't do anything worthwhile.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> So you, an individual, are saying that you can't do anything worthwhile.


Not without systematic change as well which IMO either will happen via tragedy (the deaths of millions of people from heat/flooding to the point where even the rich are affected) and/or by force (law). We cannot wait for people to make their own minds up ffs.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

You can still do something as an individual. It's nonsensical to say you can't do anything unless there is systematic change.  Stop being an idiot.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> You can still do something as an individual. It's nonsensical to say you can't do anything unless there is systematic change.  Stop being an idiot.


Yes, but it is nothing without systematic change. Do you really think everything will change just because more people ride their bikes?


----------



## yield (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> You can still do something as an individual. It's nonsensical to say you can't do anything unless there is systematic change.  Stop being an idiot.


Big Oil Is Trying to Make Climate Change Your Problem to Solve. Don’t Let Them
May 14, 2021
A new Harvard study highlights a decades-long trend — how industry creates systemic problems and then blames consumers for it


> Of course, consumers aren’t entirely blameless, particularly the world’s wealthiest individuals, but the idea that oil is a purely demand-side industry is ridiculous. In the 1980s, for example, when the oil crisis was finally over (oil prices had risen by 300 percent at one point) oil companies were very worried about the fact that Americans had gotten good at saving energy, so good that demand seemed to have permanently dipped.





> Did they reduce supply accordingly? No, they looked for ways to drive demand back up, tinkering with production and lobbying for policies that would incentivize increased fossil fuel use. More recently, as companies have grappled with a natural gas glut, they have not stopped fracking, but merely found a new revenue stream — plastic.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

yield said:


> Big Oil Is Trying to Make Climate Change Your Problem to Solve. Don’t Let Them
> May 14, 2021
> A new Harvard study highlights a decades-long trend — how industry creates systemic problems and then blames consumers for it


Yeah, I know all that, most people do, and it's come up at urban before.  It's nonsensical and immoral and perverse to use that to justify doing nothing to change your behaviour. 

This is a very simple point I'm making here. There is no logical argument against it. And as I've already explained, one person's change in behaviour, which is trivial on its own, can become a popular trend and mushroom into a historic societal change.

This is one of the fundamental mechanisms of society. If you refuse to allow that it may operate with emissions and consumption, maybe you should ask yourself whether your fears of climate disaster have engendered paranoia? 

There's a great deal of paranoia about. It's not surprising, given the multiple horrifying threats we face.   Paranoia, unlike some other conditions, can be very tricky to recognise. Sufferers often reject any help and go untreated for life. It's a symptom of psychosis, which sounds scary, but it's not Anthony Perkins with a knife, it's just a problem perceiving some aspects of reality accurately, and it's treatable with medication and CBT.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

Wtf you on about? Paranoia?


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

Let Me Google That
					

For all those people that find it more convenient to bother you with their question than to google it for themselves.




					letmegooglethat.com


----------



## 8ball (Aug 2, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> …people do need to be forced to change their behaviour. Persuasive argument’s not gonna work, is it?



I’m getting a bit of deja vu here…


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Let Me Google That
> 
> 
> For all those people that find it more convenient to bother you with their question than to google it for themselves.
> ...


You need to read what you’ve linked to and maybe change your wording. You are describing using necessary measures to ameliorate a global emergency that threatens human existence and has destroyed and will destroy many species and ecosystems as paranoia. Get fucked with that


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2022)

8ball said:


> I’m getting a bit of deja vu here…


Explain


----------



## 8ball (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Explain



People have become weak and decadent 
and distracted by trivialities.

They need a strong leader who will make the important decisions for them.

It is imperative that a critical mass of support be secured so that we are not dragged down by the weak, entranced and distracted masses who will only vote for the own inevitable degradation and destruction, and we will be dragged down with them.

We must be resolute and unflinching in what we have to do.

It was something like that, anyway.  I have a memory like a sieve these days.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

🤷‍♂️


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> You need to read what you’ve linked to and maybe change your wording. You are describing using necessary measures to ameliorate a global emergency that threatens human existence and has destroyed and will destroy many species and ecosystems as paranoia. Get fucked with that


You really have lost the plot and joined the tyre-kicking club. I suggest mutual ignore


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> You really have lost the plot and joined the tyre-kicking club. I suggest mutual ignore


I don't want to ignore such wrongheadedness. explain yourself. tyre-kicking? incorrect use of the word paranoia to describe stating the need for necessary measures to slow down a now-guaranteed partial apocalypse? Do better at explaining your thinking please. How is it paranoid? We know something awful is going to happen to the Earth and it’s not because everyone is out to get you. It’s because we’ve trashed the planet. Paranoia doesn’t come into it at all.


----------



## Nylock (Aug 3, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed, I think one of the  points Robinson was trying to make is that it will take some kind of catastrophe for the world to take this seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I liked his Mars trilogy. I'll check out the one you've mentioned.

In answer to the OP; personally, I think it's been left too late to stave off warming to a reasonable level and things in the intermediate term are going to get very unpleasant. 

However, recent environmental extreme events, the covid pandemic and the Ukraine war are starting to focus minds in ways that haven't happened since the world was made aware of the dangers of CFCs. So a potential positive takeaway is the acceleration away from fossil fuels brought on by recent events. Also, in the field of renewable energy generation and storage, there are massive strides being made both in efficiency and in lowering reliance on toxic heavy metals and rare-earth metals etc.

Whilst things are, to put it mildly, less than ideal, we're not quite at the 'abandon all hope' stage yet.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

What was it about CFCs that made people sit up and listen? The potential destruction of the ozone layer as an environmental catastrophe is just as nebulous and hard-to-imagine as other man-made existential threats, yet we did something about it, and pretty quickly, but we still seem unable to imagine even more serious and immediate  threats to our existence.
Was it just because there were easily adopted alternatives to CFCs? Nothing like the plethora of renewable energy sources that mostly don’t work on the scale they need to yet.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 3, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed, I think one of the  points Robinson was trying to make is that it will take some kind of catastrophe for the world to take this seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I worked in change management I was taught a change principal that...

People resist change until crisis.

An alcoholic won't admit they have a problem until their husband walks out in them.
The man who doesn't eat healthy until their heart attack.
The CEO who won't do online shopping until they've lost most of their customer base.

Often it's too late to change. Customers never return. A second heart attack finishes him off.

The problem we have is we've already had lots of crisis and people were actively employed to convince us it wasn't happening for the sake of profits.
A false narrative was sold to too many people.
Even those who now realise the crisis is real are still hoping some future fairy dust (undiscovered technology) will solve it for them with magic targets but no actions.

I don't hold out much hope for us.


----------



## Nylock (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> What was it about CFCs that made people sit up and listen? The potential destruction of the ozone layer as an environmental catastrophe is just as nebulous and hard-to-imagine as other man-made existential threats, yet we did something about it, and pretty quickly, but we still seem unable to imagine even more serious and immediate  threats to our existence.
> Was it just because there were easily adopted alternatives to CFCs? Nothing like the plethora of renewable energy sources that mostly don’t work on the scale they need to yet.


The issue with CFCs and ozone depletion boiled down to one simple argument: Fix it now or by 2100 everything's gone. This article goes into some detail regarding the efforts and successful outcome of the Montreal protocol: what happened to the ozone hole?

Environmental scientists and campaigners lament the lack of equivalent coordination and sense of urgency surrounding CO2 emissions as there was with CFCs. Governments across the world had the opportunity to ride the momentum and come up with a comprehensive strategy for CO2 reduction, but then the dead hand of the fossil fuel industry and their paid propagandists injected confusion and inertia into the process and, well, here we are.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 3, 2022)




----------



## Elpenor (Aug 3, 2022)

bcuster said:


>




Do you have a link to the map?


----------



## bcuster (Aug 4, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Do you have a link to the map?


i think the link is contained therein. The maps are interactive/...


----------



## JimW (Aug 4, 2022)

Climate change: Potential to end humanity is 'dangerously underexplored' say experts
					

Global heating could become "catastrophic" for humanity if temperature rises are worse than many predict or cause cascades of events we have yet to consider, or indeed both. The world needs to start preparing for the possibility of a "climate endgame."




					phys.org
				




We've not been doom-laden enough


----------



## 8ball (Aug 4, 2022)

JimW said:


> Climate change: Potential to end humanity is 'dangerously underexplored' say experts
> 
> 
> Global heating could become "catastrophic" for humanity if temperature rises are worse than many predict or cause cascades of events we have yet to consider, or indeed both. The world needs to start preparing for the possibility of a "climate endgame."
> ...



We need stronger words than “apocalyptic” and “catastrophic”.  I’ve developed a bit of a tolerance and they’re just not really doing it for me any more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

8ball said:


> We need stronger words than “apocalyptic” and “catastrophic”.  I’ve developed a bit of a tolerance and they’re just not really doing it for me any more.


universal bereavement, an inspiring achievement


----------



## 8ball (Aug 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> we will all go together when we go and it won't be pleasant



I need something with a bit more kick than “not pleasant”.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

8ball said:


> I need something with a bit more kick than “not pleasant”.


a kick up the arse, that's what you need. to be bishop brennan'd from here to athlone


----------



## 8ball (Aug 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> a kick up the arse, that's what you need. to be bishop brennan'd from here to athlone



I suppose “cataclysmal” is ok.


----------



## stavros (Aug 4, 2022)

"Annihilation"?


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 4, 2022)

We're fucked.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 4, 2022)

You don't know what you've got till it's gone.

Big Yellow Taxi here for you, guvnor.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 5, 2022)

8ball said:


> We need stronger words than “apocalyptic” and “catastrophic”.  I’ve developed a bit of a tolerance and they’re just not really doing it for me any more.


Deadiemcdeadified


----------



## NoXion (Aug 8, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> We're fucked.



Please stop doing the fossil fuel companies' propaganda work for them:









						Climate Deniers Shift Tactics to ‘Inactivism’
					

Fossil fuel interests are trying to blame climate change on individuals while also sowing division, says Michael Mann, one of their prime targets




					www.scientificamerican.com
				







			
				Article said:
			
		

> *The book details the way these fossil fuel interests are working to dampen the public’s enthusiasm for taking action on climate. How are they doing that? *
> 
> I use whole bunch of “D” words to describe this: deflection, delay, division, despair mongering, doomism. To start with, there is an effort to deflect attention away from systemic solutions. They are trying to convince people that climate change is not the result of their corporate policies but of our own individual actions. I mean BP [a multinational oil and gas company headquartered in London] was instrumental in the whole idea of a carbon footprint. They introduced the carbon footprint calculator to help get people to think of this as an individual-responsibility issue.



People saying shit like "we're fucked" feeds into the despair mongering and doom campaign that the fossil fuels industry has taken to promulgating, now that the evidence of climate change is undeniable to all except the most delusional.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Please stop doing the fossil fuel companies' propaganda work for them:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've posted once on this thread

And yes...unless we move to Nuclear power very soon and away from fossil fuels then we are fucked. 

What do you want to hear? That its all roses and bumble bees and we will all be grand??


----------



## NoXion (Aug 8, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> I've posted once on this thread
> 
> And yes...unless we move to Nuclear power very soon and away from fossil fuels then we are fucked.
> 
> What do you want to hear? That its all roses and bumble bees and we will all be grand??



Nobody who says this kind of thing ever quantifies what they mean by "fucked". Collapse of civilisation? Human extinction? Both are possibilities, but they are _far_ from certainties.

The alternative to fetishising the apocalypse isn't to do nothing and pretend everything is fine. It's to take action. But people generally aren't going to take any action if they think it's pointless to do so.

I'm concerned that there may be an element of self-fulling prophecy at work, especially given that fossil fuel companies have very deep pockets with which to finance the spread of paralysing despair.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2022)

The collapse of civilisations is as certain as day and night


----------



## Cid (Aug 8, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> The collapse of civilisations is as certain as day and night



Of specific civilisations, yes (and presumably of all of them eventually). But that's missing NoXion 's point.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 8, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> The collapse of civilisations is as certain as day and night




 Civilisations don’t collapse, they evolve.

The process is painful and there are clear losers, the trick is to make sure it's the elites.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Please stop doing the fossil fuel companies' propaganda work for them:
> People saying shit like "we're fucked" feeds into the despair mongering and doom campaign that the fossil fuels industry has taken to promulgating.



This is why we're fucked though. 
People don't think for themselves.
Less so today than ever before.
Religion use to be used manipulate the masses.
Now we have the media and social media.
Twitter bots and spin doctors. The money pays the Piper. The masses dance to the tune.

And so we're fucked.


----------



## chilango (Aug 8, 2022)

It's too late to stop, or even slow, catastrophic climate change. It has been for some time. 

It's not too late to shape how we deal with it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 8, 2022)

This summer feels hostile. Relentless. Maybe I'm jsut gettin' old. But I can't cope with the heat, not anymore. Maybe it's the heightened awareness of climate change and the cost of living pressures, but these are extraordinary times. We have another week of heatwave, though not as severe. It just feels intense: the very air is a struggle to breath. This isn't even really the start of the kind of conditions scientists have been doing their best to warn people about. But nothing will be done in the immediate future. Yet we know that resolving this crisis becomes more difficult the longer you leave it. That is the sad irony.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Nobody who says this kind of thing ever quantifies what they mean by "fucked". Collapse of civilisation? Human extinction? Both are possibilities, but they are _far_ from certainties.
> 
> The alternative to fetishising the apocalypse isn't to do nothing and pretend everything is fine. It's to take action. But people generally aren't going to take any action if they think it's pointless to do so.
> 
> I'm concerned that there may be an element of self-fulling prophecy at work, especially given that fossil fuel companies have very deep pockets with which to finance the spread of paralysing despair.




You are the only one talking about paralysis. 

We are fucked.
But that doesn't mean we sit back and do nothing or make things worse.
All we CAN do is move as fast as possible to the best alternatives and a move away from fossil fuels and towards nuclear and alternative energy is necessary for whatever future possible generational version of  humanity persists after this mess.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

Somehow I find it hard to accept the nuclear option. When all the establishment are in favour you have to question. We have 24 hour tides all around our shores. Harness that energy and you won't need a nuclear industry which can't deal with its hazardous waste and which is linked with nuclear arms. It's also a technology which we specifically don't want used in certain parts of the world.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2022)

I guess we bought ourselves a bit of time due to the manufacturers of CFC’s not wielding major geopolitical clout, but it’s not looking so good this time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

Gromit said:


> This is why we're fucked though.
> People don't think for themselves.
> Less so today than ever before.
> Religion use to be used manipulate the masses.
> ...


Even the vogons would recoil from that poem


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Somehow I find it hard to accept the nuclear option. When all the establishment are in favour you have to question. We have 24 hour tides all around our shores. Harness that energy and you won't need a nuclear industry which can't deal with its hazardous waste and which is linked with nuclear arms. It's also a technology which we specifically don't want used in certain parts of the world.


I don’t think it’s that simple


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Somehow I find it hard to accept the nuclear option. When all the establishment are in favour you have to question. We have 24 hour tides all around our shores. Harness that energy and you won't need a nuclear industry which can't deal with its hazardous waste and which is linked with nuclear arms. It's also a technology which we specifically don't want used in certain parts of the world.


One of the problems with nuclear had been highlighted the last few days in France where nuclear power stations had trouble with river water being too warm


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> I don’t think it’s that simple


Nothing is simple. But politicians saying that we need a mixture of power generation, including nuclear, is simple. And generally sound bite simple. Switch off brain. Spout cliché. That doesn't mean nuclear power couldn't be discussed sensibly. It just rarely is.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> One of the problems with nuclear had been highlighted the last few days in France where nuclear power stations had trouble with river water being too warm


Another potential problem is clear in Ukraine. War. It happens. Most places, given enough time. Nuclear power stations are risky at the best of times, and go on being dangerous for a very long time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Another potential problem is clear in Ukraine. War. It happens. Most places, given enough time. Nuclear power stations are risky at the best of times, and go on being dangerous for a very long time.


And at a time we really need stability if we're going to stave off environmental catastrophe war has never been more on the cards


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 8, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Nothing is simple. But politicians saying that we need a mixture of power generation, including nuclear, is simple. And generally sound bite simple. Switch off brain. Spout cliché. That doesn't mean nuclear power couldn't be discussed sensibly. It just rarely is.


Apart from the radioactive waste the big problem with nuclear is it takes 25 years to build power station.  you can build loads of wind, solar, hydro, tidal etc in that time.


----------



## Humberto (Aug 8, 2022)

Governments don't seem to care and are playing with fire. They don't have any bottom to do anything about it until it's too late.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 9, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Somehow I find it hard to accept the nuclear option. When all the establishment are in favour you have to question. We have 24 hour tides all around our shores. Harness that energy and you won't need a nuclear industry which can't deal with its hazardous waste and which is linked with nuclear arms. It's also a technology which we specifically don't want used in certain parts of the world.







__





						Co-Founder of Greenpeace Envisions a Nuclear Future
					

Wired News speaks with Patrick Moore, a co-founder of Greenpeace, who now co-chairs a pro-nuclear power coalition.




					www.wired.com
				




Greenpeace don't like hydroelectric options btw. I guess they feel that they disrupt local ecosystems.


----------



## Cid (Aug 9, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Somehow I find it hard to accept the nuclear option. When all the establishment are in favour you have to question. We have 24 hour tides all around our shores. Harness that energy and you won't need a nuclear industry which can't deal with its hazardous waste and which is linked with nuclear arms. It's also a technology which we specifically don't want used in certain parts of the world.



Tidal energy has proven really hard to develop... I'm not up to date mind you, but it's problems like extreme variation in wave height, extremely hostile environment (seawater), high relative cost. With the most established technology, barrages, you're also basically building a dam filled with whirling blades across a major body of water. The ecosystem disruption is pretty much inevitable, and consequences hard to predict.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 9, 2022)

Gromit said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Patrick Moore has long been pro nuclear. He no longer has anything to with Greenpeace, hasn't for yonks, but the link is always mentioned when the topic of nuclear power rears it ugly head.
Greenpeace's opinion, or George Monbiot's, is not the final word on the matter anyway. Even he only resorts to the nuclear option because he sees it as a stopgap, to be replaced in time with something more renewably sustainable. Trouble is that more nuclear will just lead to more nuclear.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 9, 2022)

If you look up Patrick Moore on Wikipedia you will see that his association with Greenpeace ended in 1986, 36 years ago. He has since championed nuclear power and GM foods, excused unsustainable logging and denied Global Warming. In short he's a complete twat.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 9, 2022)

I thought there was a legitimate Green argument for nuclear power? I think Friends Of The Earth were pro-NP at some point?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 9, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought there was a legitimate Green argument for nuclear power? I think Friends Of The Earth were pro-NP at some point?



Well there’s that climate change thing..


----------



## bcuster (Aug 9, 2022)

disposing of nuclear waste is the biggest problem with fission. we must redouble our efforts regarding nuclear fusion to combat global warming


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 9, 2022)

bcuster said:


> disposing of nuclear waste is the biggest problem with fission. we must redouble our efforts regarding nuclear fusion to combat global warming


I think on reflection it was fusion that the Greens/FotE were/are keen on


----------



## co-op (Aug 10, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought there was a legitimate Green argument for nuclear power? I think Friends Of The Earth were pro-NP at some point?



I'm pretty sure FoE were never pro-nuclear but about 10 years they moved from basing their opposition from H&S to the fact that nuclear has such an unbelieveably shit record that it wasn't credible. At least part of that shift was due to the massive evidence that had slowly piled up about the unhealthiness of burning fossil fuels and how many deaths globally were due to them. In comparison nuclear is great.


----------



## co-op (Aug 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> Well there’s that climate change thing..



Nuclear power is really crap in terms of climate change. The largest source of GHG emissions from nuclear is the milling and mining of the uranium - i.e it is ongoing. It is a "low carbon" source of energy not a no-carbon one - although no one has a meaningful definition of "low carbon" and arguably nuclear is is a higher emitter than highly efficient gas. And this is before we get on to its actual delivery record which is appalling.

It's a comfort blanket for anyone who really really wants to believe that everything is going to be ok amd nothing much needs to change.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 10, 2022)

Do you have anything credible on nuclear being a higher emitter than gas?


----------



## co-op (Aug 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> Do you have anything credible on nuclear being a higher emitter than gas?



It's a disputed claim of course, why I called it "arguably" lower. There are so many claims being made by massively vested interests on all sides and there's big money at stake & there's a shit ton of bad (or at least partial) science being published to back it all up. The key takeaway for me is that nuclear is absolutely not zero carbon and is no where near it although imo it is probably down somewhere in the gray zone between trad fossil fuels and renewables. But gas is fundamentally quite efficient, whereas centralised electricity production in massive plants fundamentally isn't - there are huge distribution losses.

The GHG cost of nuclear is very hard to calculate - how to spread the carbon cost of a Fukushima? How do you even calculate the GHG cost of a Fukushima?  What about future storage facilities? Even the milling and mining figure is almost completely dependent on how many other active nuclear plants there are globally and what capacity they are running at - this will determine what richness-level of uranium ore it is worth mining. Anything down to 0.02% is worthwhile in terms of EROEI but obviously the closer you get to that figure, the higher the GHG load, particularly in the milling - you are looking at grinding a fairly small amount out of a tonne of rock, all that is done with fossil fuels.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 10, 2022)

No , not zero carbon.  My readings put it at possibly somewhere between solar and wind.
Agree about the vested interests and cherry picking of figures, comparing apples and oranges etc.


----------



## co-op (Aug 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> No , not zero carbon.  My readings put it at possibly somewhere between solar and wind.
> Agree about the vested interests and cherry picking of figures, comparing apples and oranges etc.


Ha ha literally just watching a prog  on BBC2 right now about the lost decade 2010-2020 and it's all about Big Oil's attempts to rebrand 'clean gas' as green. So I'm guessing that some of the science I'd have been reading 2012-13 when I was working on this was from these wankers. This is literally exactly the same strategy as that of the nuclear industry now, i.e. desperately trying to make itself look like part of some nebulous "green solution" when it obviously isn't.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 11, 2022)

Have we given up on nuclear fusion?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 11, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Have we given up on nuclear fusion?



20 years still


----------



## Gromit (Aug 11, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Have we given up on nuclear fusion?


Cold fusion?



> In February, British researchers announced that they had produced and maintained 59 megajoules of fusion energy for five seconds in a giant donut-shaped machine called a tokamak.
> 
> It hardly produced enough energy to power one house for a day and used more energy than it generated. But, it was a remarkable moment as it proved that nuclear fusion could occur continuously on Earth.



In this donut-shaped machine Lisa, we obey the laws of thermal dynamics.


----------



## stavros (Aug 11, 2022)

co-op said:


> Ha ha literally just watching a prog  on BBC2 right now about the lost decade 2010-2020 and it's all about Big Oil's attempts to rebrand 'clean gas' as green.


Was that Big Oil v the World? If so it's well worth watching the two episodes prior to that one, which looked at the original burying of their discoveries and then their planting of Cheney, Bush et al in the White House.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 11, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Have we given up on nuclear fusion?


Not at all. It is still the greatest thing that has never been successfully achieved.

And perhaps the reason is, that the sums being invested in it are less over a year than the weapons and munitions being supplied to Ukraine per day.  It needs serious funding if it is ever to be achieved.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 11, 2022)

And I wonder if there are interest groups working against the securing of fission?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 11, 2022)

weltweit said:


> And I wonder if there are interest groups working against the securing of fission?



Oil. Always oil.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 11, 2022)

stavros said:


> Was that Big Oil v the World? If so it's well worth watching the two episodes prior to that one, which looked at the original burying of their discoveries and then their planting of Cheney, Bush et al in the White House.


Just watched all three b2b - like you say, very much worth watching. Lots of the company big wigs on tape. Also the very depressing reality that the US of A is the worlds leading methane polluter as of now, via fracking.


----------



## Riklet (Aug 12, 2022)

Its never too late.


----------

