# Urban v's the Commentariat



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2013)

Following on from the now locked Callinicos/Penny thread and the moved Commentating on the Commentariat thread 

I still think we can do this!  A bunfight free thread for commentating on the latest offerings from our favourite columnists.


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2013)

Best of luck mate


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## Delroy Booth (Aug 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


> A bunfight free thread for columning on the latest offerings from our favourite commentators


 
fixed inb4bunfight


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Following on from the now locked Callinicos/Penny thread and the moved Commentating on the Commentariat thread
> 
> I still think we can do this! A bunfight free thread for commentating on the latest offerings from our favourite columnists.


this is urban. it ain't happening.


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> this is urban. it ain't happening.


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## JimW (Aug 7, 2013)

That "v's" in the title is wrong


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 7, 2013)

Tune


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2013)

JimW said:


> That "v's" in the title is wrong


 
That's just a ruse to reel pedants in.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


>


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

JimW said:


> That "v's" in the title is wrong


pedantry alive and well i see


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## JimW (Aug 7, 2013)

No commentary without pedantry!


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## frogwoman (Aug 7, 2013)

one, two, many pedants


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## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2013)

One too many pedants.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> pedantry alive and well i see


 
You're just jealous that Jim spotted it before you did.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> One too many pedants.


 
Better pedants than pederasts, I suppose.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're just jealous that Jim spotted it before you did.


no, i spotted it, i just didn't say anything about it.


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## Santino (Aug 7, 2013)

Too many pedants is better than too less pedants.


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## discokermit (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i spotted it, i just didn't say anything about it.


as fucking if.


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2013)

discokermit said:


> as fucking if.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

discokermit said:


> as fucking if.


the recent outbreak of pedantry here means there are more pedants going after fewer errors. why should i bother when i know there'll be some eager beaver pedant along in a minute up for pointing out even the most subtle mistake?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i spotted it, i just didn't say anything about it.


 
There's a first time for everything, I suppose!


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

pedal pants


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 7, 2013)

Can we define 'Commentariat' for newcomers?


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## Teaboy (Aug 7, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Can we define 'Commentariat' for newcomers?


 
Its a code words used in threads which are best off avoided by newcomers.  Trust me on this one.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

I hate the commentariat. Better dead than read.


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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

I bet the Guardian are crapping themselves.......


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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> pedal pants


 
Oh, you can fuck off, again. Fuckface. Posting racist images isn't cool.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Sorry to be unfashionably on topic, but can anyone present a brief précis of the twitterstorms involving Graham Linehan, Caitlin Moran and something called a twittersilence? 
I haven't been able to keep up and I'm not sure what they are arguing about, except Linehan seems to be defending Moran cos she is gettin abuse for saying something daft. Not sure what though, or what a twitter silence is but it's something to do with all those bomb threats that some women teeters have been getting for daring to be feminists. Or maybe it isn't and I'm conflating two separate issues. It's hard to follow twitterstorms debates retrospectively


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## emanymton (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Sorry to be unfashionably on topic, but can anyone present a brief précis of the twitterstorms involving Graham Linehan, Caitlin Moran and something called a twittersilence?
> I haven't been able to keep up and I'm not sure what they are arguing about, except Linehan seems to be defending Moran cos she is gettin abuse for saying something daft. Not sure what though, or what a twitter silence is but it's something to do with all those bomb threats that some women teeters have been getting for daring to be feminists. Or maybe it isn't and I'm conflating two separate issues. It's hard to follow twitterstorms debates retrospectively


I can only being a vague glimmer of light to the issue I am afraid. 

The Twitersilence was in response to all the various threats being thrown at women for having the temerity to speak up. Some people decided a really good way to protest against this would be to shut up and boycott Twiter for 24 hours. One of those people was Moran


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

A few years ago Moran made jokes about 'retards' and AIDS and a few days ago she had a go at someone who had a go at her husband for liking some daft punk thing and threatened them, something to do with their genitals, pissing through a straw or something and Linehan joined in or something and Billy Bragg is getting a lot of flack as well. Someone else said something, everyone got upset and said they'd stop saying things on one day to show how angry they were but they didn't. Or something.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Billy Bragg is a prick and deserves a lot of flak


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Flak is it? Bloody pedants.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Heh, wasn't being a pedant. Didn't notice your flagrant lack of spelling knowledge.
Tut


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## caleb (Aug 7, 2013)

A few months ago, Limmy (Brian Limond, a Scottish comedian) was taking the piss out of Catilin Moran's husband for a fawning review he wrote of Daft Punk's new album (which was basically: 'if you don't like this, you're dumb and don't understand it, so just try again until you do'). Caitlin Moran got angry, accused Limmy of 'spraying spittle' (with the commentariat, if you aren't with them, you're the angry mob), and told him she'd leave him 'pissing through a straw' (or something to that effect).


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Christ, why do they all stick up for each other so much? (Apart from limmy of course - though he has said some stupid things recently).
My twitterceleb mate, right or wrong. Euch.


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## emanymton (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Christ, why do they all stick up for each other so much? (Apart from limmy of course - though he has said some stupid things recently).
> My twitterceleb mate, right or wrong. Euch.


The complete opposite of Urban really.


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## caleb (Aug 7, 2013)

I feel with Limmy though, he's constantly opening his mind to things and willing to learn from his mistakes and apologise. You don't get that with that lot.

On some other forum they were discussing why Limmy has never really 'made it', and someone pointed out he's the exact opposite of the Oxbridge comedy types to populate the British comedy scene. I reckon there's some truth to that.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

He certainly deserves his tv show to have had wider exposure than just BBC Scotland.
Good job it's all up on Youtube


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> Oh, you can fuck off, again. Fuckface. Posting racist images isn't cool.


Care to qualify that accusation dandruff?


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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Care to qualify that accusation dandruff?


 
I've only been called that once before.  You are definitely a returning poster.


TeeJay is that you? Sad twat.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> I've only been called that once before.  You are definitely a returning poster.
> 
> 
> TeeJay is that you? Sad twat.



Not sure what your problem is son but qualify your accusation or shut the fuck up/have another drink/take your calm down pills...whatever fills yer bucket really


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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

You aren't doing a very good job of hiding your last identity are you.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> You aren't doing a very good job of hiding your last identity are you.


Your just boring now...qualify your accusation of me posting racist images or talk to yourself/your bottle...twat


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Hey, don't start all this shit again.


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## kittyP (Aug 7, 2013)

I don't really have much to add other than thank you Pickman's model as I am now listening to Faith No More


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Hey, don't start all this shit again.


I didn't start it mate i'm just finishing it...


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Hey, don't start all this shit again.


 
the standard of your posts has declined since you went away


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Flak is it? Bloody pedants.


 
taloia


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2013)




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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> the standard of your posts has declined since you went away


Thanks for the review. Nice to know someone is always watching and judging.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Let's not refer to other beefs on other threads, eh?


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> taloia


 
Que?


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


>


 

Fight back...Don't let it happen, AGAIN!


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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Your just boring now...qualify your accusation of me posting racist images or talk to yourself/your bottle...twat


 
So, you aren't a returning poster?

Just a new member with a catchy tag-line and knowledge about posters that were here years ago?

I can see right through you, give it time and I'll be proved right.

You certainly aren't a new member with only one year here. And, I'd just like to say again, fuck you, fuckface.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> So, you aren't a returning poster?
> 
> Just a new member with a catchy tag-ling and knowledge about posters that were here years ago?
> 
> ...


Give it up pisshead your boring people


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)




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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Give it up pisshead your boring people


 
Fuck's sake. Your is not the same as you're. 
If I'm pissed, are you just ignorant or stupid?


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> Fuck's sake. Your is not the same as you're.
> If I'm pissed, are you just ignorant or stupid?


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## killer b (Aug 7, 2013)

you're a bit obsessed with returning posters tonight dandred. have you considered winding it in, seeing how you totally fucked up last time?


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

My love will be sentimental, intersectional and cheesy sometimes or it will be bullshit.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 7, 2013)

Take to to a private conversation, will you?


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 7, 2013)

oh fuck this fucking stuff

it was the picture of the man fucking the car .  take that intersectionalistas


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

can't view that pic 
*sigh :/


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## Dandred (Aug 7, 2013)

killer b said:


> you're a bit obsessed with returning posters tonight dandred. have you considered winding it in, seeing how you totally fucked up last time?


 
I understand your point but....
*bamalama isn't trustworthy.*


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

My love will also include reference to and remind me of old skool tracks that are inappropriate, that others hate, sexualised, that make me question my like of them, or it will be bullshit...


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

I didn't understand that post at all rutita, or it's relevance to the thread but that is an ace record.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I didn't understand that post at all rutita, or it's relevance to the thread but that is an ace record.


That is enough...it seems that intersectionality/misunderstanding/seeming irrelelance/differences of opinion are okay on this thread.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> oh fuck this fucking stuff
> 
> it was the picture of the man fucking the car . take that intersectionalistas


 

okay


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Que?


 
there's a lot of it about


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> okay


 
sorry


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> there's a lot of it about


 
Too fucking much of it about mate, whatever it is.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> sorry


 

My love will be Stun-nab-stub-sta-nahhhhhhhhhh aswell or it will be bullshit!!

Nae worries.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

caleb said:


> I feel with Limmy though, he's constantly opening his mind to things and willing to learn from his mistakes and apologise. You don't get that with that lot.
> 
> On some other forum they were discussing why Limmy has never really 'made it', and someone pointed out he's the exact opposite of the Oxbridge comedy types to populate the British comedy scene. I reckon there's some truth to that.


 
The exact opposite of the Oxbridge footlight wankers is Bernard Manning. Now there was a guy who could tell a joke. People think I'm trolling or just generally being a prick, but I really do think his career's due for a much needed re-appraisal. An hour listening to our Bernard's comedy stylings or those of, say, Dawn French? You know it makes sense.

I'm not that into that Limmy though - But he's still got more nouse in his little finger than Caitlin Moran could ever hope to have.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2013)

Manning was a nasty unfunny piece of work. You be tripping


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

Nah, he knew how to tell a joke though.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> I understand your point but....
> *bamalama isn't trustworthy.*


Look numb nuts just cos you repeat something,shout something incessantly doesn't make it true,my four year old understands this.Now care to qualify your earlier piece of slander...you won't because you can't,because it's a lie...


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> I understand your point but....
> *bamalama isn't trustworthy.*


 
I know I've undermined my credibility by admitting to liking Bernard Manning but, that aside, I do think you're wrong about Bamalama.


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## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


>


Is This Why We Can't Have Nice Things?


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## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Let's not refer to other beefs on other threads, eh?


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I know I've undermined my credibility by admitting to liking Bernard Manning but, that aside, I do think you're wrong about Bamalama.


Don't worry about it fl he started this craic on another thread yesterday/earlier this morning..i'm not sure what his problem is(i think it's a he),but i suspect he either lives in canada or he likes to eat a lot of fish.Ultimately though i don't give a flying...Havin said that he's falsely accused me of posting racist images,and that's not going to slip by without me challenging it


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Don't worry about it fl he started this craic on another thread yesterday/earlier this morning..i'm not sure what his problem is(i think it's a he),but i suspect he either lives in canada or he likes to eat a lot of fish.Ultimately though i don't give a flying...Havin said that he's falsely accused me of posting racist images,and that's not going to slip by without me challenging it


 
I know, yeah. it was JC3 who posted images of lynchings. Dandy's got his knicks in a twist over something you didn't even do, kidder.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Play nice Urbs, play nice.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 7, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Manning was a nasty unfunny piece of work. You be tripping



You're wrong. He certainly had some unfortunate material but in a technical sense he was  a maestro. In fact, 'technical' is wrong; he was an artist. Implying Manning wasn't funny is equivalent to saying Wagner couldn't write an opera or Clapton can't pluck out a tune. Unfortunately, racists are often geniuses in other areas.
He was funny. And most of his stuff wasn't objectionable.
And, as for the stuff that was...it wasn't exceptional at the time. In fact compared with some of the characters knocking around working men's clubs in the 70s/80s, he was a bleeding heart. 
Manning acts as a collective scapegoat in his respect; as does the likes of Love thy Neighbour etc. there' was a ready 'market' for that stuff. "We" wanted it...or if you weren't around, fair enough...but ret assured that some of he things you laugh at now will embarrass you in 30 years. Some of the stuff you do..say..buy
There's no point trading in anachronism. As long as you're tying to improve things that's fine...or you'd thing so wouldn't you? Then you look at the intersectionalists and realise it's not as clear cut as you think.
It's not about backing the winner. It's all about backing the 'right' horse. 
I only bet three or four times a year: Derby, Natnal and maybe a couple of other things.  Never win a fuckin thing but I'm always on the one who deserves it.
As for the commentariat, I think it comes down to this: they're a bunch of cunts. There's only one decent thing I've read lately.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/techno...o-think-twitter-is-a-zoo-they-have-to-police/

Mainly for the quote at the end which inspired me to look out my old Phil Ochs stuff...

#“Sure, once I was young and impulsive; I wore every conceivable pin, 
Even went to Socialist meetings, learned all the old Union hymns
Ah, but I’ve grown older and wiser, and that’s why I’m turning you in.
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal.” #


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## smokedout (Aug 7, 2013)

Owen's alternative

*Owen Jones* ‏@*OwenJones84*  6 Aug
An alternative: living wage; let councils build houses; German-style industrial strategy; public investment bank; anti-tax avoidance crusade

the centre left of capital


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Nah, he knew how to tell a joke though.


 
Nah he was rubbish and not from a pc, alternative, non racist/sexist etc pov. He was nice to old people who came to his club, that's true but still a cunt. Not as good as Roy chubby Brown and he was shit as well.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

I liked him anyway.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

As if by magic! Ronnie Rubashov is back. Welcome back Ronnie. You're right about the commentariat but wrong in a nice way about everything else!


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> You're wrong. He certainly had some unfortunate material but in a technical sense he was a maestro. In fact, 'technical' is wrong; he was an artist. Implying Manning wasn't funny is equivalent to saying Wagner couldn't write an opera or Clapton can't pluck out a tune. Unfortunately, racists are often geniuses in other areas.
> He was funny. And most of his stuff wasn't objectionable.<snip>


 
That's what I was trying to say. Nice to see you back anyway.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Unfortunately, racists are often geniuses in other areas.


 
That bit could be true.


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## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

Dandred said:


> I understand your point but....
> *bamalama isn't trustworthy.*


 

based on what, exactly?

Bamalama's posts (that I have read, and I've read a few) have been consistent with his professed views. I used to get silly cunts asking 'who _were_ you?'. You are just an institutionlised urban wierdo, dandruff (there that's 3 posters now).


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

I've got to admit, it pisses me _right_ off when the default position on a new poster seems to be "who did you used to be" - I've had it myself (though it did get resolved) but at the time it properly ground my gears - Probably a lot more than is healthy.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Following on from the now locked Callinicos/Penny thread and the moved Commentating on the Commentariat thread
> 
> I still think we can do this! A bunfight free thread for commentating on the latest offerings from our favourite columnists.


 
What's with the apostrophe in vs[versus]?


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> What's with the apostrophe in vs[versus]?


 
That's been dealt with in pedantry corner. The pedantry in this thread is commensurate with the communism of the commentariat.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> That's been dealt with in pedantry corner. The pedantry in this thread is commensurate with the communism of the commentariat.


 
I thought that maybe it was  some word I wasn't familiar with.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> based on what, exactly?
> 
> Bamalama's posts (that I have read, and I've read a few) have been consistent with his professed views. I just to get silly cunts asking 'who _were_ you?'. You are just an institutionlised urban wierdo, dandruff (there that's 3 posters now).


In all fairness liam, the dopey cunt can ask what he wants...if he hadn't have made a knowingly false accusation against me i wouldn't even be dealing with him.I shit cunts like him for breakfast...cheers though


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

That's two false allegations now: is he on your list as well?


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## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I thought that maybe it was some word I wasn't familiar with.


 
I'm pretty sure you're familiar with it.


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## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

when i came on here first I got accused of a) being fash (despite personally knowing most of the posters on the Beating the fascist's thread) and b) making up a phone call I had had.... despite two posters who were in the room when the third party took the call saying they had heard him take it and it held up their meeting...

Maybe dandred is Belboid?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> I'm pretty sure you're familiar with it.


 
v's?

As in:  'the v's pointy end is a 30 degree angle'?


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's two false allegations now: is he on your list as well?


So i suppose your not going to apologise,and you never accused me of anything you insinuated it like the pissy spineless excuse for a poster ye are


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## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> In all fairness liam the dopey cunt can ask what he wants...if he hadn't have made a knowingly false accusation against me i wouldn't even be dealing with him.I shit cunts like him for breakfast...cheers though


 

I would have appreciated a comma between the words 'Liam' and 'the dopey cunt' btw


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

> pissy spineless excuse


 
I guess the good thing is, at least I have an excuse.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I would have appreciated a comma between the words 'Liam' and 'the dopey cunt' btw


 
This shows the perils of sloppy punctuation: I thought he meant you.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I would have appreciated a comma between the words 'Liam' and 'the dopey cunt' btw


Done


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## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I shit cunts like him for breakfast...


 
watery little turds? You need some fibre in your diet, mo chara.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> when i came on here first I got accused of a) being fash (despite personally knowing most of the posters on the Beating the fascist's thread) and b) making up a phone call I had had.... despite two posters who were in the room when the third party took the call saying they had heard him take it and it held up their meeting...
> 
> Maybe dandred is Belboid?


 
 It was belboid who accused me of being a returning poster as well. Though to be fair to him it did get sorted out nd I bear him no ill will.


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## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This shows the perils of sloppy punctuation: I thought he meant you.


 

that's cos you continually (often deliberately IME) 'misread' posts


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 7, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> As if by magic! Ronnie Rubashov is back. Welcome back Ronnie. You're right about the commentariat but wrong in a nice way about everything else!



As if by magic?

Anyway, I'm right about Manning. I'm looking at his innate ability to produce humour. In that, he was in a league of his own. He was a finely calibrated instrument. 
If Greggs started putting lard, pollyfilla and sawdust through the mincer, the sausage rolls'd still look pristine. With Manning, it was lean pork 60% of the time, 20% sawdust, and the rest was, admittedly, a bit toxic. But when he was funny, he was very funny.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> watery little turds? You need some fibre in your diet, mo chara.


All bran...recommended it yesterday...come to think of it my recent posts have taken a definite scatological turn,i'm blamin that bastard jc


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> that's cos you continually (often deliberately IME) 'misread' posts


 
You yourself pointed out that the post needed a comma between your name and the dopey cunt.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

Stick around this time Ronald - The guy who accused you of being a liar, well, he's one of those people who's just not quite bright enough to realise he's a bit simple. His private education was a pure waste of his parents dollars.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You yourself pointed out that the post needed a comma between your name and the dopey cunt.


Post some photos of a lynching...go on


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> that bastard jc


 
The name's jc3.

It was jc, many years ago. But you wouldn't know that, because you've only been here a year.


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## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The name's jc3.
> 
> It was jc, many years ago. But you wouldn't know that, because you've only been here a year.


Disingenuous fucker


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

Sorry bama: if you're in 'that' mood, you'll have to find your own assistance material.


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## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You yourself pointed out that the post needed a comma between your name and the dopey cunt.


 

yes. because dopey cunts like you insist on mis-reading things... usually cos it suits your own narative


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Disingenuous fucker


 
Temper temper, newbie.


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## discokermit (Aug 7, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> As if by magic?
> 
> Anyway, I'm right about Manning. I'm looking at his innate ability to produce humour. In that, he was in a league of his own. He was a finely calibrated instrument.
> If Greggs started putting lard, pollyfilla and sawdust through the mincer, the sausage rolls'd still look pristine. With Manning, it was lean pork 60% of the time, 20% sawdust, and the rest was, admittedly, a bit toxic. But when he was funny, he was very funny.


shit material. shit delivery.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> yes. because dopey cunts like you insist on mis-reading things... usually cos it suits your own narative


 
Pretty easy to misread without the necessary comma.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The name's jc3.


 
Yes, Bama. You must address JC with his full title at all times



Johnny Canuck3 said:


> But you wouldn't know that, because you've only been here a year.


 

Ah... the newbie jibe... beloved of all the biggest (institutionalised) wankers on Urban


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

LiamO said:


> the biggest (institutionalised) wankers on Urban


 
I haven't been institutionalized...yet.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Temper temper, newbie.


My tempers fine mucker it's the way we speak to idiots like you where i come from,ye wouldn't last a day.So are you going to apologise you disingenuous trollin fucker?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 7, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Stick around this time Ronald - The guy who accused you of being a liar, well, he's one of those people who's just not quite bright enough to realise he's a bit simple. His private education was a pure waste of his parents dollars.



I not sure I was really arsed about that. I was just looking for something to get pissed off about and I was...and probably still am..drinking too much. Just now though,  I'm in a maudlin, chilled out, sit in the corner of the bar and read the horoscopes type phase.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I haven't been institutionalized...yet.


 
You did post pictures of lynchings though. in a snide and underhand way of insinuating what? Bamalama's a racist? TBH, I don't know why you feel the need to do such things coz a lot of the time you are a pretty funny guy 9even though i have called you a wanker in the past).


----------



## LiamO (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> My tempers fine mucker it's the way we speak to idiots like you where i come from,ye wouldn't last a day.So are you going to apologise you disingenuous trollin fucker?


 

careful now. the 'passive aggressive' accusation is looming


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 7, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> As if by magic?
> 
> Anyway, I'm right about Manning. I'm looking at his innate ability to produce humour. In that, he was in a league of his own. He was a finely calibrated instrument.
> If Greggs started putting lard, pollyfilla and sawdust through the mincer, the sausage rolls'd still look pristine. With Manning, it was lean pork 60% of the time, 20% sawdust, and the rest was, admittedly, a bit toxic. But when he was funny, he was very funny.


 
Nah, 1% funny, 99% offal. Awful stuff.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 7, 2013)

bamalama said:


> where i come from,ye wouldn't last a day.


 

Guess I better not go there.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> careful now. the 'passive aggressive' accusation is looming


Heh


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> i have called you a wanker in the past).


 
I've been a wanker in the past. Probably will be again. Nobody's perfect.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> My tempers fine mucker it's the way we speak to idiots like you where i come from,ye wouldn't last a day.So are you going to apologise you disingenuous trollin fucker?


 
You talk like vimto.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Guess I better not go there.


Apology? Or are you gonna keep ignoring what you did


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Apology? Or are you gonna keep ignoring what you did


 
I've forgot what I did. I'm old. I can barely remember what I had for breakfast.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> shit material. shit delivery.



You'd have to justify that. With all due respect to McLuhan, you're hitting a category error and conflating the message and the medium. His delivery, his timing and command of an audience was exemplary. You know how there's comedians these days who boast about their ability to demolish hecklers...like it's some sort of kite mark? Watch Manning and see how he does it. Or rather, don't bother trying. He didn't get hecklers.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've been a wanker in the past. Probably will be again. Nobody's perfect.


 


Nobody's poyfect


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> you're conflating the message and the medium.


i'm not. hence shit material _and_ shit delivery.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> He didn't get hecklers.


 

he did towards the end. walked off stage in tears at Coventry theatre for example, IIRC


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Nobody's poyfect


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've forgot what I did. I'm old. I can barely remember what I had for breakfast.


Pathetic


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Nah, 1% funny, 99% offal. Awful stuff.



Yeah, but you're looking at the 70s through a 2013 prism. Think of Bill and Ted..

Anyway 1% funny's still funny. I'd settle for that as a lifetime average...of stories I hear. Mostly, they're about incidents of rank injustice involving the last teabag or digestive. I'm fucked.
But y'know what? You're wrong. 
Do you think Joey Barton's a decent player btw? That's the litmus test.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> he did towards the end. walked off stage in tears at Coventry theatre for example, IIRC


 
yeah but by then he was an old man - I really didn't like how he got vilified. He won't have been able to handle it towards the end of his life - No shame in that. Tell you what though, he did a lot for Mount Carmel (school and church) in Blackley. And the parish took his money but wouldn't be publicly associated with him. And if you washed his car when he was at his mam's on Clough Rd, he'd swing a note your way - A fiver or even a tenner sometimes. Bernard Manning - A flawed but essentially decent guy who history will _never_ out as a Savile.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Pathetic


 
Do you think I'm happy about it?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i'm not. hence shit material _and_ shit delivery.



Well there ya go, see. ...'and'


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Bernard Manning - A flawed but essentially decent guy who history will _never_ out as a Savile.


 

i sincerely hope you are right about the last bit


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Do you think I'm happy about it?


Worse,i think ye don't give a fuck.Fine by me but lets hope your not in a hurry to post on any more threads about racism or fascism cos you obviously don't give a shit ye fuckin troll


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> i sincerely hope you are right about the last bit


 
Indupitably.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Worse,i think ye don't give a fuck.Fine by me but lets hope your not in a hurry to post on any more threads about racism or fascism cos you obviously don't give a shit ye fuckin troll


 
Ye ye ye.... it's like being lectured by Captain Highliner.


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've forgot what I did. I'm old. I can barely remember what I had for breakfast.



Define old


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Ye ye ye.... it's like being lectured by Captain Highliner.



It's a long game jc, that you started,shame your not very good at it...Can ye feel it jc,can ye feel it...


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Ye ye ye.... it's like being lectured by Captain Highliner.




Sleekit bastard, so ye are, if memory serves


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> yeah but by then he was an old man - I really didn't like how he got vilified. He won't have been able to handle it towards the end of his life - No shame in that. Tell you what though, he did a lot for Mount Carmel (school and church) in Blackley. And the parish took his money but wouldn't be publicly associated with him. And if you washed his car when he was at his mam's on Clough Rd, he'd swing a note your way - A fiver or even a tenner sometimes. Bernard Manning - A flawed but essentially decent guy who history will _never_ out as a Savile.


c'mon. he's got savile written all over him.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Why DK? Loads of people knew about Saville (although not the extent) for 30 years before he got publicly outed. I have never heard any of that attached to BM. Have you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> It's a long game jc, that you started,shame your not very good at it...Can ye feel it jc,can ye feel it...


 
Yes, we've been playing the game for years, Vimto.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

I've had the same breakfast for about the last 3 years. Toast. 
And that's fuckin tragic...but actually I'm strangely proud.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes, we've been playing the game for years, Vimto.


You here that noise jc thats the sound of the vice tightening on yer nuts...do you usually take the piss(badly)out of irish people for the way they speak?


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 8, 2013)

Got any of Manning's 'best,' most memorable jokes to share?  Could do with a 'laugh.'


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> c'mon. he's got savile written all over him.



Twisted antennae..way off. Edmunds is next.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Why DK? Loads of people knew about Saville (although not the extent) for 30 years before he got publicly outed. I have never heard any of that attached to BM. Have you?


You have to admit Liam,he does fit the saville profile though


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> c'mon. he's got savile written all over him.


 
Has he fuck, rumours abounded about Savo for years - Decades even - My mam saw him in an open top car with his arm round a young dolly bird on Hollinwood Avenue back in the 70's. In fact, a girl who went on to be a dancer on Top of the Pops was in my mam's year at school, so she's got the inside skinny on all those perverted & slavering twats. No such rumours abound about Bernard though - If there was truth to come out, it'd have leaked out by now. Racist? Maybe. Distasteful? Certainly. Funny? Definitely. Nonce? No chance.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> You here that noise jc thats the sound of the vice tightening on yer nuts...do you usually take the piss(badly)out of irish people for the way they speak?


 
Most people here, even the Irish ones, usually write 'you'.

But my old friend Vimto, he's a 'ye' user. 

And a 'me mucker' user.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, but you're looking at the 70s through a 2013 prism. Think of Bill and Ted..
> 
> Anyway 1% funny's still funny. I'd settle for that as a lifetime average...of stories I hear. Mostly, they're about incidents of rank injustice involving the last teabag or digestive. I'm fucked.
> But y'know what? You're wrong.
> Do you think Joey Barton's a decent player btw? That's the litmus test.


 
You're right with the prism thing, it's relativity isn't it? Time slows down, Einstein (comedian) and all that. Literally dark until the cosmic dawn. I'd settle for dark matter, tea bags and digestives. Is Joey Barton a black hole/vacuum cleaner? You are so wrong.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Most people here, even the Irish ones, usually write 'you'.
> 
> But my old friend Vimto, he's a 'ye' user.
> 
> And a 'me mucker' user.


Disingenuous...


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> You have to admit Liam,he does fit the saville profile though


 

Oh of course... well known 'ladies man'... always running marathons... always around kids... oh wait...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Disingenuous...


 
I think you're a returned banned poster; and if you want to hide the fact, you should go back to more neutral grammar and word usage.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Most people here, even the Irish ones, usually write 'you'.
> 
> But my old friend Vimto, he's a 'ye' user.
> 
> And a 'me mucker' user.


 
_even_ the Irish ones? You should stop now. Really.

lots of people from the north use 'mucker'... and lot's from all over use 'ye'.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think you're a returned banned poster; and if you want to hide the fact, you should go back to more neutral grammar and word usage.


 

that's tired... and also bollocks AFAICS. You should stop now.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> Got any of Manning's 'best,' most memorable jokes to share?  Could do with a 'laugh.'



They don't translate...that's the point. It's the whole package, the delivery, the Gestalt. Who the fuck has good jokes when they're set down as text?
Here's a good goal I saw once.
It was Van Basten...he whacked it in from this fuckin mad angle...you should have seen it...it was fuckin brilliant!,

Or then again, you could just look it up on Youtube.

Youtube him..and once you've sat there and grimaced and confirmed your 'opinion', just remember you're not just trying to rationalise humour, you're applying a backdated 3 decades-on moral and cultural sensibility. He was funny.


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I've had the same breakfast for about the last 3 years. Toast.
> And that's fuckin tragic...but actually I'm strangely proud.


Not really, as long as you vary the spread, honey one day, marmite the next, sort of a comedy appreciation subtext


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Oh of course... well known 'ladies man'... always running marathons... always around kids... oh wait...


No,extreme,polarising colourful character,donated to charities, well liked and defended locally, very vocal about his relationship with his ma,surrounded himself with a small fanclub of protecters/enablers...i've put no thought into this though,and i'm not making any accusations...just that they appear to be similar characters,and i'm wondering if they had any type of relationship with each other?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> Got any of Manning's 'best,' most memorable jokes to share? Could do with a 'laugh.'


 
That one where they were all on a desert island and they ended up being so disgusted with what they were doing to each other that they went back to shagging the corpses was pretty funny.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> that's tired... and also bollocks AFAICS. You should stop now.


Let him run he's not far from hanging himself...then he can post us a picture


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> . Is Joey Barton a black hole/vacuum cleaner? You are so wrong.



Dunno, but he cleans up well around the box..etc
I'm tempted, in the spirit of Internet 'niceness' and stuff, to say we'll just have to differ. So you'll have to remain in error while I slide serenely on.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> No,extreme,polarising colourful character,donated to charities, well liked and defended locally, very vocal about his relationship with his ma,surrounded himself with a small fanclub of protecters/enablers...i've put no thought into this though,and i'm not making any accusations...just that they appear to be similar characters,and* i'm* *wondering if they had any type of relationship with each other?*


 
AFAIK they didn't. And given Bernard's well known disdain for other entertainers, I doubt he'd have had much truck with Jimmy. Bernard did it all on his own merits - A true son of North Manchester.

E2a and they didn't even go for the same crowds - JS was always about the young girls "pop" audiences, Bernard always was for the adult crown. Anyway, fuck this, Bernard wasn't a nonce. end of.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> They don't translate...that's the point. It's the whole package, the delivery, the Gestalt. Who the fuck has good jokes when they're set down as text?
> Here's a good goal I saw once.
> It was Van Basten...he whacked it in from this fuckin mad angle...you should have seen it...it was fuckin brilliant!,
> 
> ...


 
With better appreciating a different cultural context you could post a few YouTube clips for me as I'm a duck out of water here. So pick the ones you can find that you really think are going to show me even just a brief glimpse of his genius.


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> No,extreme,polarising colourful character,donated to charities, well liked and defended locally, very vocal about his relationship with his ma,surrounded himself with a small fanclub of protecters/enablers...i've put no thought into this though,and i'm not making any accusations...just that they appear to be similar characters,and i'm wondering if they had any type of relationship with each other?



Of course your not, but reported anyway.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

coley said:


> Of course your not, but reported anyway.


Fuck off coley ye snidey prick,was wondering why you were hanging around


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> They don't translate...that's the point. It's the whole package, the delivery, the Gestalt. Who the fuck has good jokes when they're set down as text?
> Here's a good goal I saw once.
> It was Van Basten...he whacked it in from this fuckin mad angle...you should have seen it...it was fuckin brilliant!,
> 
> ...


wasn't funny then. isn't funny now.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> AFAIK they didn't. And given Bernard's well known disdain for other entertainers, I doubt he'd have had much truck with Jimmy. Bernard did it all on his own merits - A true son of North Manchester.
> 
> E2a and they didn't even go for the same crowds - JS was always about the young girls "pop" audiences, Bernard always was for the adult crown. Anyway, fuck this, Bernard wasn't a nonce. end of.


Well i'll have to take your word for that fl,cos i know very little about him except what i've posted,and his comedy was shite imo


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> wasn't funny then. isn't funny now.


 
I think you're wrong.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> With better appreciating a different cultural context you could post a few YouTube clips for me as I'm a duck out of water here. So pick the ones you can find that you really think are going to show me even just a brief glimpse of his genius.



Yeah, clearly you arrive with an open and objective mind. But I'm gonna let Bernard's genius change your mind..enjoy..


www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzS1UQhKlzI


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

That's a shite joke...


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Fuck off coley ye snidey prick,was wondering why you were hanging around


Your amusement value at this time of day? Priceless, though a short lived commodity, nowt personal yi understand?


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Bernard did it all on his own merits - A true son of North Manchester.


pulled himself up by his bootstraps, said the middle class son of a greengrocer.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

coley said:


> Your amusement value at this time of day? Priceless, though a short lived commodity, nowt personal yi understand?


Aww i've hurt your feelings...diddums


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, clearly you arrive with an open and objective mind. But I'm gonna let Bernard's genius change your mind..enjoy..
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzS1UQhKlzI


 
You're making assumptions about me and being defensive.

I like the careful choice there, well-played, but all the same it's a shit joke.


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Aww i've hurt your feelings...diddums



Not in your wildest dreams,bonnie lad, but do dream on.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> That's a shite joke...



Oh yeah? Prove it. I'm still laughing.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

coley said:


> Not in your wildest dreams,bonnie lad, but do dream on.


D'ye really want to do this again?Slow learners you ex-squaddies...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> pulled himself up by his bootstraps, said the middle class son of a greengrocer.


 
Ah _come on_ he was in no way middle class. Just coz his mam n dad had a shop in _Ancoats_ does not make the guy middle class - It might've  made him slightly better off than his contemporaries and maybe that helped him on his way but to say he was middle class - That's _fuckin properly_ disingenuous and TBH, I'd have thought better from you - You grew up in a traditional working class community - Was the shopkeepers family's circumstances significantly different from yours?


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> D'ye really want to do this again?Slow learners you ex-squaddies...



Go for it,newbie


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Oh yeah? Prove it. I'm still laughing.


It's localised colloquial crap,that won't appeal to anyone outside of where that phrasing is used,and the punch line infers an acceptance that the english in spain hate the spanish...cos youse are all like that aren't ye...
Timings good though i'll give him that


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

coley said:


> Go for it,newbie


I'm a finisher mate,not a starter


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Ah _come on_ he was in no way middle class. Just coz his mam n dad had a shop in _Ancoats_ does not make the guy middle class - It might've made him slightly better off than his contemporaries and maybe that helped him on his way but to say he was middle class - That's _fuckin properly_ disingenuous and TBH, I'd have thought better from you - You grew up in a traditional working class community - Was the shopkeepers family's circumstances significantly different from yours?


yes they were. it's textbook petit bourgeois.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> You're making assumptions about me and being defensive.
> 
> I like the careful choice there, well-played, but all the same it's a shit joke.



Making assumptions? Maybe but your bit about "even a glimpse of his genius" comes off as finished with an elaborate flourish and a sardonic sneer...no?


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> yes they were. it's textbook petit bourgeois.


Petit bourgeois bigot.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)




----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I'm a finisher mate,not a starter



Aye, so you say, where I grew up,you wouldn't have had time to utter " your threats" before you were digesting yer teeth. Mebbes twitter is more your " forte"?  grow up, or move on.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye, so you say, where I grew up,you wouldn't have had time to utter " your threats" before you were digesting yer teeth. Mebbes twitter is more your " forte"? grow up, or move on.


Stayin cool under pressure not a strong point...why'd ye leave the army again?Oh aye what threats by the way...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> yes they were. it's textbook petit bourgeois.


 
Still though, everyone in a W/C community from the poorest to the richest - They're all part of the working class (and increasingly the not even working class) - That's the way I see it. I'm not down with that petit bourgoieois gig. Don't wanna fall out over it though. You think Bernard's a wanker - I think he's ok. But he's not a nonce. Can we leave it there?


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

is this what a bamalama dingdong looks like?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> is this what a bamalama dingdong looks like?


Don't make me post a photo


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


>


 
Who ya talkin about though?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> It's localised colloquial crap,that won't appeal to anyone outside of where that phrasing is used,and the punch line infers an acceptance that the english in spain hate the spanish...cos youse are all like that aren't ye...
> Timings good though i'll give him that



Localised and colloquial? Isn't that basically every working class comic..everywhere...ever? You just like the Oxbridge ones yeah? The observational ones? The ones who tackle 'issues'? Fuck that shit. Manning is a comic..end of. If he comes over s a xenophobic prick on occasions, that's because his audience were xenophobic pricks...so fuck?...they got better and wiser. Evryone did. Things are looking up. 
Here's the thing. Comedy doesn't need a political or cultural edge. Like it not, that's still a minority taste. Look who sells now..jimmy fuckin Carr and McIntyre. Apolitical. I'm not saying they're not shit...just apolitical...like Manning, only he was funny.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Still though, everyone in a W/C community from the poorest to the richest - They're all part of the working class (and increasingly the not even working class) - That's the way I see it. I'm not down with that petit bourgoieois gig. Don't wanna fall out over it though. You think Bernard's a wanker - I think he's ok. But he's not a nonce. Can we leave it there?


i don't really think he was a nonce. your class analysis is wrong though. leaving it there.


----------



## coley (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Stayin cool under pressure not a strong point...why'd ye leave the army again?Oh aye what threats by the way...



I honestly though Urban had a minimum age limit, seems I was mistaken, anyway,way past our bedtimes. Play nicely and JC will come along later.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Making assumptions? Maybe but your bit about "even a glimpse of his genius" comes off as finished with an elaborate flourish and a sardonic sneer...no?


 
You're making out I just don't 'get' him. I think you're right to a certain extent. I'm not of his time, his part of the country and not of his class for starters (he wasn't working class).

Got any more, though? Maybe something about 'pakis,' 'nignogs' or 'benders.'


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Localised and colloquial? Isn't that basically every working class comic..everywhere...ever? You just like the Oxbridge ones yeah? The observational ones? The ones who tackle 'issues'? Fuck that shit. Manning is a comic..end of. If he comes over s a xenophobic prick on occasions, that's because his audience were xenophobic pricks...so fuck?...they got better and wiser. Evryone did. Things are looking up.
> Here's the thing. Comedy doesn't need a political or cultural edge. Like it not, that's still a minority taste. Look who sells now..jimmy fuckin Carr and McIntyre. Apolitical. I'm not saying they're not shit...just apolitical...like Manning, only he was funny.


That's a lot of assuming there...there's funny and there's the racist idiot down the pub.I like working class comics as much as the next man,if they're funny,i don't think class has much to do with being funny though if i'm honest...it's either funny or it's not.
BM seems to have made a career out of telling the worst racist shit jokes that you can hear in any pub across the land,told by pissed idiots on a saturday night.If that's your thing fair enough,it's not mine ...


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

coley said:


> I honestly though Urban had a minimum age limit, seems I was mistaken, anyway,way past our bedtimes. Play nicely and JC will come along later.


Good lad...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i don't really think he was a nonce. your class analysis is wrong though. leaving it there.


 
I know I said leave it there but fuck it if we can talk about this like grown ups - Why's my class analysis wrong - Bear in mind I don't know what I'm talkin about WRT politics ect, but I am a decent judge of character.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I know I said leave it there but fuck it if we can talk about this like grown ups - Why's my class analysis wrong - Bear in mind I don't know what I'm talkin about WRT politics ect, but I am a decent judge of character.


c'mon frances, it's two in the morning and i'm shit at explaining this stuff at the best of times.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> c'mon frances, it's two in the morning and i'm shit at explaining this stuff at the best of times.


 
Ok, we'll agree that who we gonna call a wanker? Firky.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> D'ye really want to do this again?Slow learners you ex-squaddies...


How do you know he's an ex-squaddie?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How do you know he's an ex-squaddie?


Look, why don't you get off your lazy arse and check out my posts,should take about 20mins tops,and stop boring people with this disingenuous trollin bollocks...And where's my apology for being a sneaky underhand prick by insinuating i'm a racist and using pictures of lynched people to try and do it?You've been called out, get a spine and deal with it you sad cunt.Can ye feel it yet jc,ye haven't got much rope left.
Here's a wee nudge for ye, coley admitted he used to be a squaddie on a thread last year when he was defending a peelers right to call a black man n*gger.These are your allies you desperate prick...Now get on with it there's a good lad.You're not going to get what you want so just give it up.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Can ye feel it yet jc,ye haven't got much rope left..


 
Lynching.... rope..... is this how you talk to all the black people?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Lynching.... rope..... is this how you talk to all the black people?


You really are one nasty disingenuous fucker.You do realise that other people read this nasty underhand shit don't ye?
Now i'm done here,i think i've clearly made my point...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> You really are one nasty disingenuous fucker.You do realise that other people read this nasty underhand shit don't ye?
> Now i'm done here,i think i've clearly made my point...


 
You know, when you talk with all the swearing and frothing, it makes you seem so powerful.

So.... potent.

I kinda like it.

Ooh! I think I'll go for a liedown.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You know, when you talk with all the swearing and frothing, it makes you seem so powerful.
> 
> So.... potent.
> 
> ...


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

stop being a cunt jc.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

It's a bit more than being a cunt imo it's downright nasty,and all because he's been shown up for the useless troll that he is,again.This started on a different thread with him and dandred yesterday, and they've ,weirdly, been carrying it  across other threads since.Sad fuckers with little else to do by the looks of it


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> It's a bit more than being a cunt imo it's downright nasty,and all because he's been shown up for the useless troll that he is,again.This started on a different thread with him and dandred yesterday, and they've ,weirdly, been carrying it across other threads since.Sad fuckers with little else to do by the looks of it


 
Could you please swear and call names just a few posts more?

Ooh!


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Could you please swear and call names just a few posts more?
> 
> Ooh!


Could you please stop insinuating that other people are racists because they show you up for the sad troll ye are


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Could you please stop insinuating that other people are racists because they show you up for the sad troll ye are


 
I have a suggestion.

I honestly can't recall whatever exchange it is that you're on about - no offence.

Tell me what thread and what posts it is that are offending you. I'll look at them. If I was unfair, I'll offer an apology.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I have a suggestion.
> 
> I honestly can't recall whatever exchange it is that you're on about - no offence.
> 
> Tell me what thread and what posts it is that are offending you. I'll look at them. If I was unfair, I'll offer an apology.


I've a better suggestion,find em yourself...but you won't cos you're a liar...anyways you've just done it again in post 213 you thick twat


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I've a better suggestion,find em yourself...but you won't cos you're a liar...anyways you've just done it again in post 213 you thick twat


 
I have many posts. You've suggested some transgression involving insinuations of racism. You've gone on and on about it in many posts, in different threads.

If I did you wrong, I'll apologize for it. But I have no idea when or in what thread it happened.

You seem to have a clear recollection of it all. Just post up what thread and what posts. If I was acting like a dick, I will apologize for it.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I have many posts. You've suggested some transgression involving insinuations of racism. You've gone on and on about it in many posts, in different threads.
> 
> If I did you wrong, I'll apologize for it. But I have no idea when or in what thread it happened.
> 
> You seem to have a clear recollection of it all. Just post up what thread and what posts. If I was acting like a dick, I will apologize for it.


Case is closed mug


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

You keep asking for me to apologize. I'm prepared to do it if I was in the wrong.

Just tell me which thread it was. I'll read the whole thing and find the posts myself.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You keep asking for me to apologize. I'm prepared to do it if I was in the wrong.
> 
> Just tell me which thread it was. I'll read the whole thing and find the posts myself.


See your post 213 above for starters,then find the other stuff yourself you disingenuous...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> See your post 213 above for starters,then find the other stuff yourself you disingenuous...


 
I apologize for post 213. It was uncalled-for for me to say that.

As for the rest, if you're genuine about wanting an apology, just go a small part of the distance, and reveal the name of the thread where I slighted you.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I apologize for post 213. It was uncalled-for for me to say that.
> 
> As for the rest, if you're genuine about wanting an apology, just go a small part of the distance, and reveal the name of the thread where I slighted you.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> You're making out I just don't 'get' him. I think you're right to a certain extent. I'm not of his time, his part of the country and not of his class for starters (he wasn't working class).
> 
> Got any more, though? Maybe something about 'pakis,' 'nignogs' or 'benders.'



I'm sure there are hundreds if you care to search. Can nobody on here figure out how Youtube works? I don't think anybody's denied the fact that some of his material was fuckin disgraceful, and best forgotten. But most of it wasn't and as I said, technically, he was brilliant. It all comes down to context. Like it or not, the 70s early 80s was an offensive neck of the woods...another country...they did things differently. I got called into school a few years back when my lad had been in a fight..sort of long-winded conciliation process, involving both parents which minutely involved the 'background' causes, and seemed to end with both lads making a pledge to avoid doing it again. In the 70s, they just hit us both with a stick and threatened more if it happened again. Thinking back, I'm totally offended. Most stuff was offensive. Things have progressed, but there's a bit chunk of the 'condescension of posterity' going on here.

For me, Manning was easily the best on 'The Comedians'...which early on was enormously popular. It used to rival Coronation Street. And, in fact, he was widely regarded as such by most people who watched it...it had a huge working class following. Now, other than the 'arresting and charging the 1970s' type reaction which emerged over Saville, what are you do about it. In retrospect, it was a big offensive, fucked up decade...like every previous decade. So do we all just write off the past as racist and a bit unpleasant and congratulate ourselves on our right-on progressiveness?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> That's a lot of assuming there...there's funny and there's the racist idiot down the pub.I like working class comics as much as the next man,if they're funny,i don't think class has much to do with being funny though if i'm honest...it's either funny or it's not.
> BM seems to have made a career out of telling the worst racist shit jokes that you can hear in any pub across the land,told by pissed idiots on a saturday night.If that's your thing fair enough,it's not mine ...



Yeah but you fail to take the following into account..

1) 95% of people in the pub were racist...not the odd idiot. I dare say most wouldn't think of themselves that way but certainly by modern standards...I mean they even said 'coloured' back then and that was way before POC became acceptable..again
2) Most of his stuff wasn't racist. Also, the popular image of Manning comes from the end of his career by which time he was hopelessly out of step and, indeed, a major fuckin embarrassment. He stuck around way too long and, in the end was playing largely to bespoke bigots who still wanted that sorta stuff.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

bernard manning, really?


----------



## fogbat (Aug 8, 2013)

Is it time to reboot the thread again?


----------



## Manter (Aug 8, 2013)

I can't quite believe this one has got shouty *already* 

(And when did Bernard Manning join the Commentariat )


----------



## fogbat (Aug 8, 2013)

*internet hardman pose*
I'm a real toughie.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is This Why We Can't Have Nice Things?


 
No, Dave. 

The reason we can't have nice things is that the pissy proles, with their swinish demands for bottom-up political and social change and self-government, make it difficult for the decidedly _bourgeois_ commentariat to realise their lust for "nice things", especially revolution.  How can you have a revolution (which some members of the commentariat would *naturally* form the vanguard of!) when the cannon fodder refuse to be cannon fodder? 

Sometimes (okay, most of the time!) I get the feeling that the commentariat are a deliberate construction, designed to channel inclination toward change into triviality.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

Manter said:


> I can't quite believe this one has got shouty *already*
> 
> (And when did Bernard Manning join the Commentariat )


 
When I dug up his corpse and left it in Owen Jones's bed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

smokedout said:


> Owen's alternative
> 
> *Owen Jones* ‏@*OwenJones84*  6 Aug
> An alternative: living wage; let councils build houses; *German-style industrial strategy; public investment bank*; anti-tax avoidance crusade
> ...


 
If Owen had a good grasp of German industrial strategy, he'd know that the two points I've bolded are indivisible in the German _lande_. Each _lande_ has the responsibility of sustaining a low-cost banking system for industrial and public investment.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> bernard manning, really?



Fundamentally, this isn't about Manning. It's about a tendency to dismiss any figure from the past as all bad on the basis of a modern sensibility. I'm guessing you wouldn't totally disown all of, say, Jesus, Francis of Assissi, Joan of Arc, Tom Paine, Gandhi, the Pankhursts, Rosa Luxembourg...the list is literally endless...on the basis of attitudes or actions which were totally acceptable, even laudable, in the historical context. Unfortunately for some people they get caught on the wrong side of a radical shift in societal consciousness. Manning is one such...as are most people's grandparents, and virtually all of everyone's great grandparents.

In twenty years, you may be looking back and defending your own present position re. "twitter celebrities". Possibly by then, it'll be generally accepted that a healthy society needs the sacred cows of the commentariat for whom a different set of standards apply and to whom we'll readily defer. I mean, after all..."someone's gotta police Twitter"...apparently. Why not the people who are best at it...who have the most followers, and a mainstream column, and an expensive education and a little coterie of like minded hip, trendy on-message mates. Thre's a fuckin answer to this whole "one man's troll is...etc": let Laurie Penny decide.
Obviously, I like to think I'm kidding but that's more or less the way the whole debate is going.
Incidentally, most of them stated early on that they were going to retweet and highlight all subsequent abuse. Thing is, since then, I've seen about 10...most of which look like they came from 14 year olds and yet the line is still about a constant stream of misogynistic abuse. So where is it? And if it's all arriving via email or whatever, why isn't it being exposed publicly? Or is it so shocking it'd freak us all out?
The whole thing is nothing less than a demand for deference...respect for "authority".


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I'm guessing you wouldn't totally disown all of, say, Jesus, Francis of Assissi, Joan of Arc, Tom Paine, Gandhi, the Pankhursts, Rosa Luxembourg...the list is literally endless...Manning is one such...


 
I've been saying this for years.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

no, loads of people thought he was unfunny at the time. its fuck all to do with laurie penny and frankly theres not much to choose between them.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> I've been saying this for years.



Well yeah, exactly. You take the good bits. I don't remember Einstein ever sending a goat to Africa and the theory of General Relativity didn't come with a trigger warning...and look what that led to. So we all go back to Newtonian physics, yeah?
Oh...hang on...Newton was a misogynist and an alchemist. So maybe we ditch calculus and live in mud huts?


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Does anyone find the timing, location and absurdity of this heroic defence of Bernard Manning a little suspicious?


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Well yeah, exactly. You take the good bits. I don't remember Einstein ever sending a goat to Africa and the theory of General Relativity didn't come with a trigger warning...and look what that led to. So we all go back to Newtonian physics, yeah?
> Oh...hang on...Newton was a misogynist and an alchemist. So maybe we ditch calculus and live in mud huts?


No need, Leibniz discovered calculus too.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> no, loads of people thought he was unfunny at the time. its fuck all to do with laurie penny and frankly theres not much to choose between them.



What between Penny and Manning? That's a bit harsh...Manning's wasn't that bad.
And by 'loads of people', what do you mean? There's always small numbers of people who're on the right side of history. They're not representative however much their attitudes might prove to be several decades on.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie has just compared Manning to Jesus and that, _technically_, he was a great comedian.
I'm not even sure what that means. Is that like _theoretically_. I want my comedians to be good _actual_ comedians, ie ones who are funny and make you laugh. Manning wasn't. He just told shit jokes, most of them involving belittling other people.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> No need, Leibniz discovered calculus too.


He makes nice biscuits too


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Ronnie has just compared Manning to Jesus


 It's almost as if he wanted people to respond aggressively.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> He makes nice biscuits too


Better than Fig Newtons too.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> No need, Leibniz discovered calculus too.



Yeah, but he was an establishment lackey with two distinct philosophies. One which accorded with the prejudices of the aristocracy and one of his own. He was a hypocrite by an standard; present day or contemporary. No cigar. Mud hits and animism it is.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Yeah. I just compared Manning to Jesus. That's totally what I did.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

I had a bourbon the other day but the filling wasn't chocolate, it was just plain cream or something.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah. I just compared Manning to Jesus. That's totally what I did.


Oh hush, no one's playing.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> Better than Fig Newtons too.



Fig fuckin rolls is what they're called. Creeping Americanisation is a big issue. First intersectionalism, next Fig Newtons. Where will it all end FFS?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> Oh hush, no one's playing.



There you go see.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> I had a bourbon the other day but the filling wasn't chocolate, it was just plain cream or something.


I discovered recently that bourbon the biscuit and bourbon the booze are pronounced differently. All these years I've been pronouncing bourbon the booze like bourbon the biscuit


----------



## ayatollah (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I'm sure there are hundreds if you care to search. Can nobody on here figure out how Youtube works? I don't think anybody's denied the fact that some of his material was fuckin disgraceful, and best forgotten. But most of it wasn't and as I said, technically, he was brilliant. It all comes down to context. Like it or not, the 70s early 80s was an offensive neck of the woods...another country...they did things differently. I got called into school a few years back when my lad had been in a fight..sort of long-winded conciliation process, involving both parents which minutely involved the 'background' causes, and seemed to end with both lads making a pledge to avoid doing it again. In the 70s, they just hit us both with a stick and threatened more if it happened again. Thinking back, I'm totally offended. Most stuff was offensive. Things have progressed, but there's a bit chunk of the 'condescension of posterity' going on here.
> 
> For me, Manning was easily the best on 'The Comedians'...which early on was enormously popular. It used to rival Coronation Street. And, in fact, he was widely regarded as such by most people who watched it...it had a huge working class following. Now, other than the 'arresting and charging the 1970s' type reaction which emerged over Saville, what are you do about it. In retrospect, it was a big offensive, fucked up decade...like every previous decade. So do we all just write off the past as racist and a bit unpleasant and congratulate ourselves on our right-on progressiveness?


 
OK, there is a certain ,limited, legitimacy to the oft heard defensive claim that "Those 1970's - were a different era -- a different moral universe" . Having  been a schoolkid in the 1960's, in Surrey, I can certainly confirm the universal assumption amongst my all-white peers (including me I'm deeply ashamed to admit) that the most revoltingly vile racist  (anti Black and anti Semitic) , and misogynistic  "jokes" were perfectly OK - in fact mandatory. Similarly , in the 1970's the "joke culture" amongst the general public of all classes was toned down a tad from the 60's , but was still profoundly racist and sexist (a hangover from the "White Supremacist" ideology which facilitated the Grand British Imperial Project) - and Bernard Manning's exceptionally vile act  was  a reflection (and of course also a reinforcement) of this deep Imperialist cultural sickness. Of course Manning's TV joke selection was always a very cleaned up version of his stage act in his own club . This act was REALLY  vile - and it is well recorded how he would vilify and abuse any Black person in the audience  who made the mistake of going along to one of his shows thinking it would be "a good night out". But then this was also the era in which , certainly in my then "revolutionary" party, the International Socialists,  (though not so in the rather more enlightened IMG) , the mandatory aping of the worse reactionary attitudes of the typical idealised hairy arsed male shop steward militant made it perfectly acceptable for the typical male IS member to come out with quite shocking misogynistic and anti Gay (that's "poof" of course) jokes and comments.

But what's your core point, and intention here , Ronnie ?  Why this attempt to separate  "Manning the technical performer"  from Manning the vile reactionary shitbag ?  Now I was a vile  totally historically  ignorant over-privileged middle class schoolboy in the 1960's  to come out with and laugh along with those horrible "concentration camp" , and "Rastus" jokes", and all those who continued to trade in racist and sexist jokes in the 1970's were ignorant bastards too.  People can indeed be "trapped "in the generalised ideological mindset of the times - that's what ruling class ideology is all about after all , but why on earth would anyone still defend  ignorant, racist, misogynistic fuckers like Bernard Manning , as "nevertheless brilliant performers" ,  TODAY ?

 "technically, he was brilliant. It all comes down to context. " . Well yeh, a rabble rousing, homophobic, racist, misogynistic twat, but with a great delivery technique. By that standard, we need to "give Oswald Mosley a reappraisal" --  "A truly gifted public speaker--- and widely popular"  - and give him a  "free pass" on the actual content of those speeches - "given the  widespread ideological context of the times" ? . Hmm , I don't think so, Ronnie, he was a TOTAL TWAT too !


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

The best comedians don't tell jokes


----------



## Superdupastupor (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I discovered recently that bourbon the biscuit and bourbon the booze are pronounced differently. All these years I've been pronouncing bourbon the booze like bourbon the biscuit


 

I was at a party where everyone had finished their booze, my brother asks me if I would like a bourbon?


fuken lifesaver I think.


crestfallen when he returns with a biscuit that isn't going to get on with my parched throat.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Did he pronounce it burbon or borbon?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

From now on I'm not going to pronounce it either way, but all pretentious in the proper French way with the fancy rrrr


----------



## Superdupastupor (Aug 8, 2013)

burbon ..  


borbon sounds like something they'd say in bwastoun or the west country


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Superdupastupor said:


> burbon ..
> 
> 
> borbon sounds like something they'd say in bwastoun or the west country


Borbon is the biscuit.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

No mention of that man of his time, Garibaldi, and his biscuits


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> No mention of that man of his time, Garibaldi, and his biscuits


He caused a lot of trouble for the Bourbons.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

"People can indeed be "trapped "in the generalised ideological mindset of the times - that's what ruling class ideology is all about after all , but why on earth would anyone still defend ignorant, racist, misogynistic fuckers like Bernard Manning , as "nevertheless brilliant performers" , TODAY ?"

Because you're basically condeming yourself along with Manning and the whole era. Fair enough, if you want to disown your own 1970s persona...which does seem to be exactly what you're doing...but where the fuck would that end. You state, honestly enough, "Now I was a vile totally historically ignorant over-privileged middle class schoolboy in the 1960's to come out with and laugh along with those horrible "concentration camp" , and "Rastus" jokes", and all those who continued to trade in racist and sexist jokes in the 1970's were ignorant bastards too", which carries the implication that you're a different, better person right now. So where do you draw the line? Is there a point after which you can regard yourself as morally and ideologically sound and if so when was it?
And if you regard your moral development as more of a process of continual change and improvement, then condemning your former self and most of contemporary society makes little sense. And Manning was very much of a piece with that society and that era.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest orators of the last 1000 years...


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> He caused a lot of trouble for the Bourbons.


Bourbon pretender


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

I think a Descartes biscuit would be plain with raisins baked into it, and a Spinoza would look like a round custard cream, but the filling would be lemon or orange flavoured.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> "People can indeed be "trapped "in the generalised ideological mindset of the times - that's what ruling class ideology is all about after all , but why on earth would anyone still defend ignorant, racist, misogynistic fuckers like Bernard Manning , as "nevertheless brilliant performers" , TODAY ?"
> 
> Because you're basically condeming yourself along with Manning and the whole era. Fair enough, if you want to disown your own 1970s persona...which does seem to be exactly what you're doing...but where the fuck would that end. You state, honestly enough, "Now I was a vile totally historically ignorant over-privileged middle class schoolboy in the 1960's to come out with and laugh along with those horrible "concentration camp" , and "Rastus" jokes", and all those who continued to trade in racist and sexist jokes in the 1970's were ignorant bastards too", which carries the implication that you're a different, better person right now. So where do you draw the line? Is there a point after which you can regard yourself as morally and ideologically sound and if so when was it?
> And if you regard your moral development as more of a process of continual change and improvement, then condemning your former self and most of contemporary society makes little sense. And Manning was very much of a piece with that society and that era.


You seem to be wilfully ignoring his personality


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Lest us forget:


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Definitely orange flavoured, now that I think about it. Reflecting the oranges of the Iberian peninsular, where his Sephardic ancestors lived, and the ruling house of the Netherlands.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

8ball said:


> Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest orators of the last 1000 years...


Good line in uniforms too; sartorial wizard. Highly underrated.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> Good line in uniforms too; sartorial wizard. Highly underrated.


Magnificent stagecraft


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

8ball said:


> Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest orators of the last 1000 years...



Well exactly. And that's generally accepted. Nobody denigrates him for his demagogic abilities...just all the other stuff. That's the point. Manning doesn't even emerge with any acknowledgement that he was a skilled comic. Instead, he's condemned entirely.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

A Hitler biscuit would probably be made from old biros or something.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> He caused a lot of trouble for the Bourbons.


 
Hob-nobbing with that Mazzini


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> I think a Descartes biscuit would be plain with raisins baked into it, and *a Spinoza would look like a round custard cream*, but the filling would be lemon or orange flavoured.


 

there would be a worm in it


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Well exactly. And that's generally accepted. Nobody denigrates him for his demagogic abilities...just all the other stuff. That's the point. Manning doesn't even emerge with any acknowledgement that he was a skilled comic. Instead, he's condemned entirely.


That's cos he wasn't a skilled comic. He just told one shit joke after another with no flair, no charm and no humour


----------



## fogbat (Aug 8, 2013)

People who denigrate Manning for his vile comedy fail to recognise what a brilliant racist he was


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> A Hitler biscuit would probably be made from old biros or something.


They'd be like a cream cracker with an impression of the fuhrer on both sides. Like that Jesus toast.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> there would be a worm in it


No, that's a Schroedinger. There would be a worm in some biscuits, but not others


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> You seem to be wilfully ignoring his personality



Yes. I am because I'm talking about his comedic skills. The guy who runs my local chippie is a right cunt...a horrible bastard. Only he makes fantastic chips...uses beef dripping and everything. Should I go to one of the other ones where the chips are soggy but they smile at you?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Well exactly. And that's generally accepted. Nobody denigrates him for his demagogic abilities...just all the other stuff. That's the point. Manning doesn't even emerge with any acknowledgement that he was a skilled comic. Instead, he's condemned entirely.


 
You have a point there.  Also, in 20 years time when someone mentions Jimmy Savile, no one will be reminiscing about that programme with the cub scouts trying to eat their lunch on that rollercoaster.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

A Locke biscuit would be rectangular with dimples in it. Pretty uninspiring. A Berkeley would be a wafer, and have a groove down the middle that facilitates an easy break into two halves. A Hume would be oat-based and be a bit too big to dunk into a standard mug.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

fogbat said:


> People who denigrate Manning for his vile comedy fail to recognise what a brilliant racist he was


 
What...so people who fail to denigrate Hitler for his oratory skills are condoning his other views? That's just nonsense.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Can someone change the thread title to Biscuit Manning please?
Belushi - time for a fourth thread!


----------



## fogbat (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Can someone change the thread title to Biscuit Manning please?
> Belushi - time for a fourth thread!


This time... This time it's gonna work


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> That's cos he wasn't a skilled comic. He just told one shit joke after another with no flair, no charm and no humour



Yeah, that's one way of looking at it although I'm worried you're caught in what seems to be emerging as the default mindset around here which condemns everything connected with someone you don't like and allows no redeeming feature. If so, you'd naturally dismiss the comedy a priori as a part of the larger package. 
Incidentally, comedy doesn't require charm or flair.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Can someone change the thread title to Biscuit Manning please?
> Belushi - time for a fourth thread!



Why now? It's not like it's been derailed. It was never 'railed' to begin with.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> What...so people who fail to denigrate Hitler for his oratory skills are condoning his other views? That's just nonsense.


 
I agree it's nonsense.  It's a normal human trait, though - someone does something awful and everything else they have done is tainted.  And vice versa. 

However, I've taken a Google around for some Manning jokes and most of them are pretty terrible (with one or two gems which probably deserve some kudos if they weren't nicked).


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Some dick going on about biscuits didn't help.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

I just resent the idea I'm defending Manning cos I'm either a closet bigot or that I'm trying to provoke a row. It's just that I look for the best in people.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

It's almost as if the world of the commentariat is so empty and banal biscuits and racists make a viable alternative.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, that's one way of looking at it although I'm worried you're caught in what seems to be emerging as the default mindset around here which condemns everything connected with someone you don't like and allows no redeeming feature. If so, you'd naturally dismiss the comedy a priori as a part of the larger package.
> Incidentally, comedy doesn't require charm or flair.


Thanks for your concern but give me some credit. I have seen his act and come to my opinion of Manning all by myself


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I just resent the idea I'm defending Manning cos I'm either a closet bigot or that I'm trying to provoke a row. It's just that I look for the best in people.



You're funnier than Bernard Manning


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I just resent the idea I'm defending Manning cos I'm either a closet bigot or that I'm trying to provoke a row. It's just that I look for the best in people.


i think you're doing it because you heard stuart lee say how good manning's timing was and you want to make yourself sound clever.


----------



## newbie (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> And if you regard your moral development as more of a process of continual change and improvement, then condemning your former self and most of contemporary society makes little sense. And Manning was very much of a piece with that society and that era.


 
agreed, and I'm largely  with you on most of what you've said about the 70s, but...

he's dead now, before that did his views evolve, along with most other peoples, as the 70s became the 80s, the 90s and on? Or did he attempt to hold back the tide?

the other day I heard Barry Cryer, born only a couple of years after Manning and with as long a career, on R4s With Great Pleasure.  The first passage of writing he quoted was from J B Priestly in 1934 "_the leader-writers in the cheap Press began yelping again about Keeping the Foreigner Out. Apart from the miserable meanness of the attitude itself—for the great England, the England admired throughout the world, is the England that keeps open house, the refuge of Mazzini, Marx, Lenin—history shows us that the countries that have opened their doors have gained, just as the countries that have driven out large numbers of its citizens, for racial, religious or political reasons, have always paid dearly for their [in]tolerance_." 

I've no idea what Cryer was like in the 70s (tbh I've always loathed "comedians"), but that is the serious point he wanted to make today. Were he still alive what serious point would Manning have quoted?  There's a litmus test there, which harking back to his 70s comedy timing & delivery manages to miss completely.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> You're funnier than Bernard Manning



Yeah, I know. 
You ever noticed how men leave the toilet seat up? I'm only asking cos if you think Manning was bad, I think it's only fair to acknowledge that men and toilet seats and how generally thick, rapacious and philistine Americans and Tories are formed the basis of 95% of televised comedy for a good fifteen years after he fucked off. Fair enough, the racism and rampant misogyny went, but other than that was there really an advance on the fat mother-in-law stuff.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i think you're doing it because you heard stuart lee say how good manning's timing was and you want to make yourself sound clever.



Oh well, there's a thing. See I hadn't heard that but I've always thought of Lee as a bit of a dick. But, I'll readily acknowledge he knows a thing or two about delivery. See what I did there btw? I managed to successfully separate my opinion of someone's comedic skills from my view of them as a whole. 
And so I'll gladly use Lee's opinion in support of my own. Which makes it me and a highly regarded professional comic on one side...and a bunch of random Internet voices on the other.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, I know.
> You ever noticed how men leave the toilet seat up? I'm only asking cos if you think Manning was bad, I think it's only fair to acknowledge that men and toilet seats and how generally thick, rapacious and philistine Americans and Tories are formed the basis of 95% of televised comedy for a good fifteen years after he fucked off. Fair enough, the racism and rampant misogyny went, but other than that was there really an advance on the fat mother-in-law stuff.


Yes, there has been an advance on that


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

"I've no idea what Cryer was like in the 70s (tbh I've always loathed "comedians"), but that is the serious point he wanted to make today. Were he still alive what serious point would Manning have quoted? There's a litmus test there, which harking back to his 70s comedy timing & delivery manages to miss completely."

Cryer's comedy was always safe anodyne pap...not that he ever had an issue with Irish jokes or comedy 'Indian' accents as far as I remember.

Also, I doubt Cryer was even born in 1935. But even so, Cryer was speaking in 2013 on the BBC. Those kind of sentiments are more or less obligatory. I think you're another applying anachronistic judgements.


----------



## fractionMan (Aug 8, 2013)

plato would only have one biscuit


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Yes, there has been an advance on that



Yeah, there're always 'advances'. It doesn't ever stop them looking stale-or even reassessed as offensive-after several decades of revisionism. Or are you claiming all present mainstream comedy tropes will remain 'sound' forever? Things change. That doesn't mean we have to look back and condemn our old selves as unreconstructed muppets.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

Absurdist stuff like Stanley Unwin has stood the test of time from back them, I reckon. ETA Ivor Cutler too


----------



## newbie (Aug 8, 2013)

wiki gives his dob as 23 March 1935, maybe it's airbrushed but who cares about Cryer, not I.  I don't care what jokes he used to tell, for much the reasons you've been expounding, any more than about what manning used to do.  That was then and it became now.  you haven't answered my question, did Manning move with wider society or did he cling on to attitudes the rest were shaking off as unacceptable.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, there're always 'advances'. It doesn't ever stop them looking stale-or even reassessed as offensive-after several decades of revisionism. Or are you claiming all present mainstream comedy tropes will remain 'sound' forever? Things change. That doesn't mean we have to look back and condemn our old selves as unreconstructed muppets.


You are ever so boring


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

newbie said:


> wiki gives his dob as 23 March 1935, maybe it's airbrushed but who cares about Cryer, not I. I don't care what jokes he used to tell, for much the reasons you've been expounding, any more than about what manning used to do. That was then and it became now. you haven't answered my question, did Manning move with wider society or did he cling on to attitudes the rest were shaking off as unacceptable.


 
He clung on to his attitudes and became an embarrassment. Playing to the cheap seats and all that. I'm pretty sure Ronnie's already said something along those lines.

Still a good guy though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

He was never a good guy by any standards. He was a nasty piece of work.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

newbie said:


> wiki gives his dob as 23 March 1935, maybe it's airbrushed but who cares about Cryer, not I.  I don't care what jokes he used to tell, for much the reasons you've been expounding, any more than about what manning used to do.  That was then and it became now.  you haven't answered my question, did Manning move with wider society or did he cling on to attitudes the rest were shaking off as unacceptable.



No he didn't but I'd already said that. Any time there's a major societal shift in attitudes, some people get caught on the wrong side of it. Very often it's more through age, ignorance, isolation or generally being outside the loop or zeitgeist as much of it being evidence that they're simply a wrong'un. No, Manning didn't change but nor did millions of others who didn't appear on television and 'advertise' their reactionary stance. Most of them are dead now. But, at heart, most were basically thoroughly decent people who were simply of a different era. 
Maybe we should nip round and scrawl 'fascist' on their graves?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, there're always 'advances'. It doesn't ever stop them looking stale-or even reassessed as offensive-after several decades of revisionism. Or are you claiming all present mainstream comedy tropes will remain 'sound' forever? Things change. That doesn't mean we have to look back and condemn our old selves as unreconstructed muppets.


 
Why are you using all this we and us stuff ronnie,it sounds like your trying to establish some sort of definite narrative of what"we" were all like in the seventies.The uk wasn't a homogenous place then and it's not now.
According to my ma my oul fella wouldn't have shit like the comedians ,love thy neighbour or manning on in the house,in my memory he wouldn't have a british or irish tabloid in the house either,that was because of definite stands he took because of his politics,and i'm glad about that and proud of it.
People like my dad have existed through history,get over it and try stop tarring everyone with your very broad brush eh?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> You are ever so boring



Classic.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Aug 8, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> plato would only have one biscuit


 

but it would be the most biscuity biscuit that could ever be conceptualised.


----------



## fractionMan (Aug 8, 2013)

One biscuit to rule them all


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> He was never a good guy by any standards. He was a nasty piece of work.


 
He wasn't though. He was well liked. And well liked for a reason. I can understand why you're not keen on his act even though he _did_ know how to tell a joke, but he was a genuinly big hearted guy who was well thought of.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

there were plenty of comedians in the seventies who didn't come up with the sort of shit manning does. dave allen, for instance.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Loved his mum.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Why are you using all this we and us stuff ronnie,it sounds like your trying to establish some sort of definite narrative of what"we" were all like in the seventies.The uk wasn't a homogenous place then and it's not now.
> According to my ma my oul fella wouldn't have shit like the comedians ,love thy neighbour or manning on in the house,in my memory he wouldn't have a british or irish tabloid in the house either,that was because of definite stands he took because of his politics,and i'm glad and about that and proud of it.
> People like my dad have existed through history,get over it and try stop tarring everyone with your very broad brush eh?



So look up the viewing figures. Your dad's the exception. If I'm applying a broad brush, at least I'm applying authentic paint. 

Which still stands once you've all queued to chip in with "my dad too" and "my auntie Nellie".


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> He wasn't though. He was well liked. And well liked for a reason. I can understand why you're not keen on his act even though he _did_ know how to tell a joke, but he was a genuinly big hearted guy who was well thought of.


Not by me, not by my parents, not by anyone whose opinion I respect. He wasn't even funny. He gave some people a break in comedy. So fucking what? He was a shitcandle.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> Loved his mum.


 
He did. Did a lot for the parish as well. And he'd give you a fiver or a tenner for washing his car. But I think I've already said that.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> He wasn't though. He was well liked. And well liked for a reason. I can understand why you're not keen on his act even though he _did_ know how to tell a joke, but he was a genuinly big hearted guy who was well thought of.


you're separating the man from his act, which i don't think you can do. it's like saying he was only racist for money, if you didn't pay him, he wasn't racist.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> So look up the viewing figures. Your dad's the exception. If I'm applying a broad brush, at least I'm applying authentic paint.
> 
> Which still stands once you've all queued to chip in with "my dad too" and "my auntie Nellie".


Give us the viewing figures ronnie.I don't have an aunt nellie thanks


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

A nice racist


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> there were plenty of comedians in the seventies who didn't come up with the sort of shit manning does. dave allen, for instance.



Yeah...there were loads...and you've come up with one.
Two Ronnie's? Morcombe and Wise? Yeah, there was loads of bland, safe vanilla comedy.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Give us the viewing figures ronnie.I don't have an aunt nellie thanks



Fuck me. Are youtube and Google unknown to you people?


----------



## newbie (Aug 8, 2013)

thanks Frances.  good guy? not on that yardstick, which is one I apply to changing public attitudes.

Ronnie is right that the current commentariat and their more popular cousins, comedians, will be condemned by the prism of long hindsight.  And, by extension, so will the audiences who lap up their stuff. What we don't know is where the tide is going, and which side of it each of them, and of us, will be on.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you're separating the man from his act, which i don't think you can do. it's like saying he was only racist for money, if you didn't pay him, he wasn't racist.


 
He wasn't really racist - He allowed himself (wrongly as it turned out) to become the racist caricature that his detractors painted him as. Out of sheer bloody-mindedness. He took it all the way & went to his grave unrepentant. I've got nothing but admiration for him for that.

You're right though, about me separating the man from his act, but I only did that coz OU was maintaining that Bernard couldn't have posssibly been a nice guy when he was offstage. But he was.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

He also gave us employment case law for years:

Freda Burton and Sonia Rhule, who are both black, were employed as casual waitresses at De Vere's Pennine Hotel in Derby on 1 November 1994, working at a dinner organised by the City of Derby Round Table. The Round Table had booked Bernard Manning as the speaker. On duty that evening was the hotel manager and two assistant managers.

The two women went into the banqueting hall to clear the tables during Mr Manning's performance. They heard him make jokes about the sexual organs of black men and their sexual abilities. He used words such as "wog, nigger and sambo". When Mr Manning spotted the waitresses, he remarked "very nice, that's how I like my cocoa". He then said words to the effect that "darkies were good at giving blow jobs". Although the women were considerably upset and offended, they carried on working. When the show was over, one of the guests asked Miss Rhule "what a black woman's vagina tasted like". She complained to an assistant manager. Meanwhile, another guest tried to put his arms round Miss Burton and made racially and sexually offensive remarks to her. The assistant manager saw this and brought the incident to an end. He apologised to the two women for what had happened. However, they took the view that if the management had vetted Mr Manning and his material, they would not have been placed in such a "prejudiced atmosphere". They brought complaints under the Race Relations Act 1976.

The industrial tribunal dismissed the complaints. The tribunal said that it was "in no doubt whatever" that the employees had suffered a "detriment" within the meaning of the Act. "It was not, however, the respondent which subjected them to it."

Held (allowing the appeal):
An employer subjects an employee to the detriment of racial harassment if it permits harassment to occur in circumstances in which it can control whether it happens or not. Where the harasser is a third party and not an employee for whose actions the employer would be vicariously liable, the tribunal should ask itself whether the event in question was something which was sufficiently under the control of the employer that it could, by the application of good employment practice, have prevented the harassment or reduced the extent of it. Therefore, the industrial tribunal erred in holding that the employer had not discriminated against the appellant black waitresses by subjecting them to racial harassment in the course of work from Bernard Manning, the guest speaker at a Round Table dinner, and from some of the diners, since it would have been good employment practice for the manager to warn his assistants to keep a look-out for Mr Manning and withdraw the waitresses if things became unpleasant.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you're separating the man from his act, which i don't think you can do. it's like saying he was only racist for money, if you didn't pay him, he wasn't racist.



That's a valid point. So would you ban Wagner...or just condemn the audience as racist? Pulp all of Evelyn Waugh...or just blacklist anyone who reads him? 
If you really can't separate a person from their work then you're dismissing 99% of world culture.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah...there were loads...and you've come up with one.
> Two Ronnie's? Morcombe and Wise? Yeah, there was loads of bland, safe vanilla comedy.


haha! ronnie barkers wordplay was a thousand times more inventive than manning. eric morecambe was a million times funnier without even opening his mouth, superb timing.
manning told the sort of shit jokes that unfunny people at work who think they're funny tell. jokes that don't rely on timing or any particular skill to deliver. jokes children could tell.

vanilla? as if manning was cutting edge or dangerous or something. you really are talking nonsense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> No he didn't but I'd already said that. Any time there's a major societal shift in attitudes, some people get caught on the wrong side of it. Very often it's more through age, ignorance, isolation or generally being outside the loop or zeitgeist as much of it being evidence that they're simply a wrong'un. No, Manning didn't change but nor did millions of others who didn't appear on television and 'advertise' their reactionary stance. Most of them are dead now. But, at heart, most were basically thoroughly decent people who were simply of a different era.
> Maybe we should nip round and scrawl 'fascist' on their graves?


why? are all racists fascist? perhaps you need your understanding of racism and fascism tightened up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> That's a valid point. So would you ban Wagner...or just condemn the audience as racist? Pulp all of Evelyn Waugh...or just blacklist anyone who reads him?
> If you really can't separate a person from their work then you're dismissing 99% of world culture.


i'd make wagner compulsory


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

bernard manning ffs. this place really has changed


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> That's a valid point. So would you ban Wagner...or just condemn the audience as racist? Pulp all of Evelyn Waugh...or just blacklist anyone who reads him?
> If you really can't separate a person from their work then you're dismissing 99% of world culture.


did wagner write operas about paki's and niggers?


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> bernard manning ffs. this place really has changed


It's just two knobs, one of them with a suspicious profile.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> haha! ronnie barkers wordplay was a thousand times more inventive than manning. eric morecambe was a million times funnier without even opening his mouth, superb timing.
> manning told the sort of shit jokes that unfunny people at work who think they're funny tell. jokes that don't rely on timing or any particular skill to deliver. jokes children could tell.
> 
> vanilla? as if manning was cutting edge or dangerous or something. you really are talking nonsense.



Ronnie Barker's wordplay? Remind me?...oh yeah the 1000s of ways you could just miss rhyming something with tits or willy or balls. How could I forget? Comedy gold.
And Morecombe and wise were safe, end-of-the-pier, boilerplate beige.

But I suppose that since you've just dismissed most of all world historical culture as inseparable from the person producing it if they had any opinions which would pass muster in  a liberal 2013, I suppose you've gotta have something to cling to. Cos let's face it, anything anywhere pre about 1950 has been jettisoned in your book, no?
Is there nothing you're gonna miss? Orwell? Mozart? Elvis? Beatrix Potter?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> did wagner write operas about paki's and niggers?



No just Jews. Although he cleverly disguised them?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Ronnie Barker's wordplay? Remind me?...oh yeah the 1000s of ways you could just miss rhyming something with tits or willy or balls. How could I forget? Comedy gold.
> And Morecombe and wise were safe, end-of-the-pier, boilerplate beige.
> 
> But I suppose that since you've just dismissed most of all world historical culture as inseparable from the person producing it if they had any opinions which would pass muster in a liberal 2013, I suppose you've gotta have something to cling to. Cos let's face it, anything anywhere pre about 1950 has been jettisoned in your book, no?
> Is there nothing you're gonna miss? Orwell? Mozart? Elvis? Beatrix Potter?


you're a bit thick, aren't you. a lot of the two ronnies material was not in fact written by the two ronnies. you have yourself separated the creators of the work from the work itself, though ignorance.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 8, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> plato would only have one biscuit



Those chaps had a philosophical approach to the whole issue of junk food vs fresh fruit.

Cercidas ate cookies all day.
Damo was the same-o
And Socrates would eat no grapes at all.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you're a bit thick, aren't you. a lot of the two ronnies material was not in fact written by the two ronnies. you have yourself separated the creators of the work from the work itself, though ignorance.



Well, no I'm not am I? I was simply making the assumption on good faith, based on dicokermit's citing of "Ronnie Barker's wordplay", that it was in fact the work of Ronnie Barker. Maybe you ought to take it up with discokermit? Possibly, even tell him/her that they're a bit thick? Mind you, I wouldn't do that. In fact, I think the recent lapse into insult is a little disconcerting. I'm starting to feel like a twitter feminist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Well, no I'm not am I? I was simply making the assumption on good faith, based on dicokermit's citing of "Ronnie Barker's wordplay", that it was in fact the work of Ronnie Barker. Maybe you ought to take it up with discokermit? Possibly, even tell him/her that they're a bit thick? Mind you, I wouldn't do that. In fact, I think the recent lapse into insult is a little disconcerting. I'm starting to feel like a twitter feminist.


you're starting to look like a twat. and one thing i find suspicious is that there's a hiatus in your posting history from january to yesterday. i wouldn't be surprised if you're some sort of 'sock puppet' for one or more of the recently expelled clique.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you're starting to look like a twat. and one thing i find suspicious is that there's a hiatus in your posting history from january to yesterday. i wouldn't be surprised if you're some sort of 'sock puppet' for one or more of the recently expelled clique.


also, most of the posts, almost all, have been either in this thread or the laurie penny one...


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I'm starting to feel like a twitter feminist.


 


exactly what do you mean by that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> exactly what do you mean by that?


that we're all threatening to rape him and / or leave bombs outside his house?


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> that we're all threatening to rape him and / or leave bombs outside his house?


 


I was going to let him dig a little deeper first.....


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you're starting to look like a twat. and one thing i find suspicious is that there's a hiatus in your posting history from january to yesterday. i wouldn't be surprised if you're some sort of 'sock puppet' for one or more of the recently expelled clique.



Right, so don't drop the insults. Ramp it up and start some baseless insinuation. Why is that exactly...because you made a mistake and called me thick over somebody else's error and rather than maybe apologise or admit you're wrong, you'd rather throw out unfounded accusations?

Classy stuff.
I wouldn't dream of accusing you of being a sock puppet for someone else...although, if I did can you guess who it'd be? Someone who adopts just those tactics...and is just that petulant. I'll give you a clue. They've  got a 'column'.
Maybe I should go and you can get on with discussing how cliquish and hypocritical the commentariat are?


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I wouldn't dream of accusing you of being a sock puppet for someone else...although, if I did can you guess who it'd be? Someone who adopts just those tactics...and is just that petulant. I'll give you a clue. They've got a 'column'.


Nelson?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> I was going to let him dig a little deeper first.....



Yeah, but luckily someone stepped in and saved me from falling for your master plan. Jesus wept.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

I mean Gavin Nelson, from the never-popular sitcom 'Nelson's Column', obviously.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

fishy dandruff


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Santino said:


> Nelson?



Close...it's certainly someone short who doesn't have 20 20 vision or good depth perception.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Right, so don't drop the insults. Ramp it up and start some baseless insinuation. Why is that exactly...because you made a mistake and called me thick over somebody else's error and rather than maybe apologise or admit you're wrong, you'd rather throw out unfounded accusations?
> 
> Classy stuff.
> I wouldn't dream of accusing you of being a sock puppet for someone else...although, if I did can you guess who it'd be? Someone who adopts just those tactics...and is just that petulant. I'll give you a clue. They've got a 'column'.
> Maybe I should go and you can get on with discussing how cliquish and hypocritical the commentariat are?


you think i'm durruti?


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Maybe I should go and you can get on with discussing how cliquish and hypocritical the commentariat are?


 
you could perhaps stop mimicking their behaviour first...


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, but luckily someone stepped in and saved me from falling for your master plan. Jesus wept.


 
still waiting for an answer.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you're starting to look like a twat. and one thing i find suspicious is that there's a hiatus in your posting history from january to yesterday. *i wouldn't be surprised if you're some sort of 'sock puppet' for one or more of the recently expelled* clique.


 
He's not. I don't reckon. He flounced when Fridgemagnet accused him of lying about living in an area that was/is rife with crime and smack. But now he's back. And is sticking up for Bernard Manning. It doesn't get much better than this.


----------



## T & P (Aug 8, 2013)

I bet Jim Davidson is also liked and rated as a comedian by some in here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Right, so don't drop the insults. Ramp it up and start some baseless insinuation. Why is that exactly...because you made a mistake and called me thick over somebody else's error and rather than maybe apologise or admit you're wrong, you'd rather throw out unfounded accusations?
> 
> Classy stuff.
> I wouldn't dream of accusing you of being a sock puppet for someone else...although, if I did can you guess who it'd be? Someone who adopts just those tactics...and is just that petulant. I'll give you a clue. They've got a 'column'.
> Maybe I should go and you can get on with discussing how cliquish and hypocritical the commentariat are?


i see you're not denying you're ignorant. and you've yet to come back to my comment about your views on racists / fascists


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

T & P said:


> I bet Jim Davidson is also liked and rated as a comedian by some in here.


 
 Nah. And the fact that you'd even posit that as an idea betrays your lack of understanding of pretty much anything really.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> you could perhaps stop mimicking their behaviour first...



No...you're gonna have to expand on that. Cliquish? Hardly...hypocritical? Certainly can't see how you'd make that leap...have I contradicted myself...gone back on any point I made earlier?
I think you're left with maybe trying to be deliberately provocative and contrarian...although all I'm saying is that in a technical sense , Manning is a good comic.
So I don't see how you justify the idea that I'm 'mimicking their behaviour'. I think you simply come up with anything else substantive to say so you threw in a complete non sequitur...which, now I come to think about it, is somewhat reminiscent of...erm...


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> No...you're gonna have to expand on that. Cliquish? Hardly...hypocritical? Certainly can't see how you'd make that leap...have I contradicted myself...gone back on any point I made earlier?
> I think you're left with maybe trying to be deliberately provocative and contrarian...although all I'm saying is that in a technical sense , Manning is a good comic.
> So I don't see how you justify the idea that I'm 'mimicking their behaviour'. I think you simply come up with anything else substantive to say so you threw in a complete non sequitur...which, now I come to think about it, is somewhat reminiscent of...erm...


 

why don't you explain how you are being made to feel like a twitter feminist...


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i see you're not denying you're ignorant. and you've yet to come back to my comment about your views on racists / fascists



Seriously mate? You tell me I'm looking like a twat, accuse me of being ignorant on account of someone else's error then your coup de grace is to point out that I didn't specifically deny being ignorant?
How fuckin old are you? Are you typing this stuff near some swings and a roundabout?
You're fuckin priceless.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Seriously mate? You tell me I'm looking like a twat, accuse me of being ignorant on account of someone else's error then your coup de grace is to point out that I didn't specifically deny being ignorant?
> How fuckin old are you? Are you typing this stuff near some swings and a roundabout?
> You're fuckin priceless.


I see you've given up the "hey i'm just another ordinary confused drunk workin class bloke" act then...


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> why don't you explain how you are being made to feel like a twitter feminist...



Fine...right after you explain how I'm mimicking the commentariat? 
Thing is, my bit's easy....you've got your work cut out. Come on...give me just two ways in which I'm mimicking the commentariat. Apart from anything else, wouldn't I have called you all abusive trolls and flounced off by now. In fact the more I think about it, I could hardly be acting any less like the commentariat. But no doubt you'll put me straight, but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I see you've given up the "hey i'm just another ordinary confused drunk workin class bloke" act then...



Never claimed to be confused. And it's a bit early in the day for me and I'm up the doctor's later. I'll get back to you after about 8:30. I'll be on the way by then.
Ps. best you can do?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

> I could hardly be acting any less like the commentariat.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I see you've given up the "hey i'm just another ordinary confused drunk workin class bloke" act then...


 
It's not an act - He's an ok guy is Ronnie IMO. Fuck knows why everyone's on his case. And it was me that started the Bernard Manning re-appraisal off anyway. Which I stand by. But I don't see why people are getting on ronnie's case above & beyond merely disagreeing with him - Why all the (unfounded) accusations  of chicanery? Especially from you bamalama - You've had it yourself, it's neither cool nor where it's at. At all.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Never claimed to be confused. And it's a bit early in the day for me and I'm up the doctor's later. I'll get back to you after about 8:30. I'll be on the way by then.
> Ps. best you can do?


Establish that narrative son...and no i could/should do better.See ye later


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not an act - He's an ok guy is Ronnie IMO. Fuck knows why everyone's on his case. And it was me that started the Bernard Manning re-appraisal off anyway. Which I stand by. But I don't see why people are getting on ronnie's case above & beyond merely disagreeing with him - Why all the (unfounded) accusations of chicanery? Especially from you bamalama - You've had it yourself, it's neither cool nor where it's at. At all.


I can fight me own corner francis,thanks...and the difference between me and ronaldo is that i didn't ask for it


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not an act - He's an ok guy is Ronnie IMO. Fuck knows why everyone's on his case. And it was me that started the Bernard Manning re-appraisal off anyway. Which I stand by. But I don't see why people are getting on ronnie's case above & beyond merely disagreeing with him - Why all the (unfounded) accusations  of chicanery? Especially from you bamalama - You've had it yourself, it's neither cool nor where it's at. At all.



Cheers. But I take it as a compliment. I think it's pretty clear the case for Manning has been established beyond a few loose ends so they're reduced to abuse and groundless accusations. I forgive them. I've gotta go out soon anyway. So it's good they capitulated when they did.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I can fight me own corner francis,thanks...and the difference between me and ronaldo is that i didn't ask for it



Yeah...when you're mob handed. What's your exact role?..wait till they're on the floor then come running in with a good boot?
Stay classy you.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Cheers. But I take it as a compliment. I think it's pretty clear the case for Manning has been established beyond a few loose ends so they're reduced to abuse and groundless accusations. I forgive them. I've gotta go out soon anyway. So it's good they capitulated when they did.


 
Is that you Phil?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Cheers. But I take it as a compliment. I think it's pretty clear the case for Manning has been established beyond a few loose ends so they're reduced to abuse and groundless accusations. I forgive them. I've gotta go out soon anyway. So it's good they capitulated when they did.


They...me...us


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

the case for Manning


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> They...me...us



What was that you were saying about confusion?


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah...when you're mob handed. What's your exact role?..wait till they're on the floor then come running in with a good boot?
> Stay classy you.


Hi. I have a question for you. Have you ever registered on this site under a different name?

I do have a very good reason for asking and seeing as you seem familiar with the current urban _Zeitgeist_, I'm sure you'll understand why I'm asking.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah...when you're mob handed. What's your exact role?..wait till they're on the floor then come running in with a good boot?
> Stay classy you.


Aww poor you


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Is that you Phil?


 
Is it eckers like.


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Fine...right after you explain how I'm mimicking the commentariat?
> Thing is, my bit's easy....you've got your work cut out. Come on...give me just two ways in which I'm mimicking the commentariat. Apart from anything else, wouldn't I have called you all abusive trolls and flounced off by now. In fact the more I think about it, I could hardly be acting any less like the commentariat. But no doubt you'll put me straight, but I won't hold my breath.


 


how exactly is calling you 'a bit stupid' comparable to the rape and death threats received by feminists?


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Is it eckers like.


 
It's the forgiveness bit, that post suddenly sounded a lot like dwyer


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> It's the forgiveness bit, that post suddenly sounded a lot like dwyer


and the capitulation part


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2013)

The mask slips


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> It's the forgiveness bit, that post suddenly sounded a lot like dwyer


I say that all the time...it's the catholic schooling y'see


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The mask slips


You mean, the mask slıps


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Seriously mate? You tell me I'm looking like a twat, accuse me of being ignorant on account of someone else's error then your coup de grace is to point out that I didn't specifically deny being ignorant?
> How fuckin old are you? Are you typing this stuff near some swings and a roundabout?
> You're fuckin priceless.


it's no secret that many comedians or indeed other actors in the past didn't write their own material. it's not like eg laurence olivier wrote henry v, or groucho marx duck soup. anyone with even a passing familiarity with the two ronnies or morecambe and wise would know - or be able to guess - that they didn't write all their own material. it is THICK for this not to occur to you and IGNORANT that you didn't already know it. the latter you can cure, but for the former there is no remedy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The mask slips


fucking typical it doesn't even fit


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Don't be fucking stupid - Ronnie did, I reckon, have a sockpuppet account in the name of Melancholia while he was on his flounce. He posted on that thread about that dicky anarchist bookshop that got burnt down. And got banned. Which was fair enough. No way is he _Dwyer_ though. Do try to keep up. Honest to god, some of youse, your eyes must be boggled.

E2a this thread http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...bombed-donations-being-accepted.305769/page-3 from post 82. I thought he was pretty funny.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Hi. I have a question for you. Have you ever registered on this site under a different name?
> 
> I do have a very good reason for asking and seeing as you seem familiar with the current urban _Zeitgeist_, I'm sure you'll understand why I'm asking.



No. But I have reason to believe that at least two other people did so from this computer in late January or early February but I believe both were banned with a day or even several hours. Since then...no, not at all.
What do you mean by 'urban zeitgeist' btw? Not sure I've referred to anything which has gone on here specifically. What is it you're referring to? I've looked and seen several topics discussed here but they are hardly unique to Urban.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> No. But I have reason to believe that at least two other people did so from this computer in late January or early February but I believe both were banned with a day or even several hours. Since then...no, not at all.


 
So you're nothing to so with Melanchoia then? Or the other poster?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

i wonder why Ronnie Rubashov's avatar is er two sock puppets.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

firky.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder why Ronnie Rubashov's avatar is er two sock puppets.


Haaaaaw


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> So you're nothing to so with Melanchoia then? Or the other poster?



Yeah. I share the computer with that poster...if that's the name they used. He's an occasional lodger. I'm sure he said there was another one though...Dave something or other...although that may have been CIF...but I'm sure he claimed to have been banned from urban twice. The second time he reckoned it was real quick...under a couple of hours. He's back on Friday. I'll ask him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah. I share the computer with that poster...if that's the name they used. He's an occasional lodger. I'm sure he said there was another one though...Dave something or other...although that may have been CIF...but I'm sure he claimed to have been banned from urban twice. The second time he reckoned it was real quick...under a couple of hours. He's back on Friday. I'll ask him.


i wonder if you'll still have a log-in then.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder why Ronnie Rubashov's avatar is er two sock puppets.



Yeah, nice one Sherlock. Look again...where's the socks. That's imitation fur.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah. I share the computer with that poster...if that's the name they used. He's an occasional lodger. I'm sure he said there was another one though...Dave something or other...although that may have been CIF...but I'm sure he claimed to have been banned from urban twice. The second time he reckoned it was real quick...under a couple of hours. He's back on Friday. I'll ask him.


 
soz - I did think melancholia was you. He was funny as fuck on that anarchist bookshop thread anyway.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder if you'll still have a log-in then.



Yeah...the big question. My stomach's in knots.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, nice one Sherlock. Look again...where's the socks. That's imitation fur.


there's no dichotomy. there's no rule that says 'sock puppets cannot be made from imitation fur'.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> there's no dichotomy. there's no rule that says 'sock puppets cannot be made from imitation fur'.


 
is this your pedant hunt again?


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> soz - I did think melancholia was you. He was funny as fuck on that anarchist bookshop thread anyway.


Amazing that an "occasional lodger" should not only end up posting on the same boards as Ronnie but appear so similar in style and content that you thought that they were the same person. 

What might be the odds on that, do you reckon?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah. I share the computer with that poster...if that's the name they used. He's an occasional lodger. I'm sure he said there was another one though...Dave something or other...although that may have been CIF...but I'm sure he claimed to have been banned from urban twice. The second time he reckoned it was real quick...under a couple of hours. He's back on Friday. I'll ask him.


Wibble


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> soz - I did think melancholia was you. He was funny as fuck on that anarchist bookshop thread anyway.



Was that the one that burned down? Oh shit. Steve'd love that. He hates anarchists...his ex girlfriend was an anarchist...left him and fucked off to North Wales in his camper van.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Was that the one that burned down? Oh shit. Steve'd love that. He hates anarchists...his ex girlfriend was an anarchist...left him and fucked off to North Wales in his camper van.


Narrative...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Amazing that an "occasional lodger" should not only end up posting on the same boards as Ronnie but appear so similar in style and content that you thought that they were the same person.
> 
> What might be the odds on that, do you reckon?


what's also more curious is that only one person seems to have posted from that computer at a time. surely if there's two people in a flat or house and they both have memberships here then they would both post here over a range of dates.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Is it eckers like.


 
Francis, Francis, I've seen you do this before and let it slide, but my recent pedantry outbreak compels me to insist you write this "heck as like", not your shonky phonetic nonsense  This is _very_ important.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> is this your pedant hunt again?


 
He'll never take me alive, filthy board cop!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

JimW said:


> Francis, Francis, I've seen you do this before and let it slide, but my recent pedantry outbreak compels me to insist you write this "heck as like", not your shonky phonetic nonsense  This is _very_ important.


francEs not francIs

you'll never cut it as a pedant with your slipshod ways


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> francEs not francIs
> 
> you'll never cut it as a pedant with your slipshod ways


 
Nope, that's his fault for spelling it wrong too


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Amazing that an "occasional lodger" should not only end up posting on the same boards as Ronnie but appear so similar in style and content that you thought that they were the same person.
> 
> What might be the odds on that, do you reckon?



Well honestly, I don't know. Although he had read most of my postings. Maybe I inspired him? Don't want to sound like a petulant twat, but I really couldn't give a toss. You want to ban me-feel free. You must do what you must do...but it wasn't me. If it was I'd say so.
I wasn't even banned. Why would I sign up in a different name to imitate myself? Not sure what you're getting at there.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> francEs not francIs
> 
> you'll never cut it as a pedant with your slipshod ways


oof!


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> francEs not francIs
> 
> you'll never cut it as a pedant with your slipshod ways


 
I think you mean Frances


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Amazing that an "occasional lodger" should not only end up posting on the same boards as Ronnie but appear so similar in style and content that you thought that they were the same person.
> 
> What might be the odds on that, do you reckon?


 
Well, if you think of it like the occasional lodger might go "Oh, let's have a bash on Ronnie's puter, see what he's been doing - Oh what he's been posting on some boards, I'll have a go at this". And then displays similar attitudes/ways as Rondog coz he's a mate of Ronnie's - And people do tend to seek out mates who are similar in attitude/ways to themselves, then not all that long odds at all I don't reckon.

Please don't ban him though, I'm asking you. Most of this shit's come from the Bernard Manning thing. Which I started.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Narrative...



Yeah...life is a narrative. Maybe you should get one?


----------



## bamalama (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah...life is a narrative. Maybe you should get one?


Very weak


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

Manning - The Banning. On a message board near you this autumn.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I think you mean Frances


Which is the female spelling. Compound pedantry.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Trocchi


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

JimW said:


> Nope, that's his fault for spelling it wrong too


 
Francis - Boys name. Frances - Girls name. No wrong spelling there, big guy.

I like names that end in an "iss" sound though, coz they sound like a state of being.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Right. I'm off. I'll check in later to see if I'm banned. If I'm not, I might even nip down to Morrison's for a bottle of cider to celebrate...then again, if not, I might console myself by nipping down...


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Francis - Boys name. Frances - Girls name. No wrong spelling there, big guy.
> 
> I like names that end in an "iss" sound though, coz they sound like a state of being.


 
Are you telling me you post on these boards under a pseudonym  I am shocked, shocked I tell you. It was the same when I found out discokermit doesn't sign his time sheets that way either.


----------



## Athos (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:
			
		

> Yeah, nice one Sherlock. Look again...where's the socks. That's imitation fur.



Fake fur(ky)?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

JimW said:


> Manning - The Banning. On a message board near you this autumn.



Followed by Melancholia / Ronnie - Bang on the Money.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

JimW said:


> Are you telling me you post on these boards under a pseudonym  I am shocked, shocked I tell you. It was the same when I found out discokermit doesn't sign his time sheets that way either.


i tried to but i got a written warning.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i tried to but i got a written warning.


 
I was thinking as I wrote it bet he does actually.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Wasn't Ronnie a Teacher in the NE? Firk/ern?


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

JimW said:


> I was thinking as I wrote it bet he does actually.


i once had to fill in a form at work, listing all permanent disabilities, i put down 'priapism'.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i once had to fill in a form at work, listing all permanent disabilities, i put down 'priapism'.


 
Issued with oversize overalls and told to get on with it.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 8, 2013)

JimW said:


> He'll never take me alive, filthy board cop!


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, if you think of it like the occasional lodger might go "Oh, let's have a bash on Ronnie's puter, see what he's been doing - Oh what he's been posting on some boards, I'll have a go at this". And then displays similar attitudes/ways as Rondog coz he's a mate of Ronnie's - And people do tend to seek out mates who are similar in attitude/ways to themselves, then not all that long odds at all I don't reckon.


That really is piss weak, you know.

Just because you "occasionally lodge" at someone's house that doesn't mean that your posts are going to sound so identical in tone and content that established posters will mistake you for the same person. It's unbelievably unlikely - even more so given the distinctive nature of Ronnie's style.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

So ban me





editor said:


> That really is piss weak, you know.
> 
> Just because you "occasionally lodge" at someone's house that doesn't mean that your posts are going to sound so identical in tone and content that established posters will mistake you for the same person. It's unbelievably unlikely - even more so given the distinctive nature of Ronnie's style.



But just know...if that was me, I'd say so...why wouldn't I ? I always own up to my indiscretions, at least once I'm 'caught'. Since I can't actually prove that wasn't me...although neither can you prove it was...I don't suppose this counts as being 'caught' so I might not own up on this occasion so ban me anyway. That way I've got fuck all to lose, have I? And since I've got fuck all to lose I may as well come clean...so here goes: It wasn't me!
At least 8 people have access to this IP address, two of whom are here now finding this whole thing most entertaining. So ban me please and spare me the amateurish detective work and inept speculation. I'll take my 'distinctive' style elsewhere.

One final thing on which I will come clean. On reviewing Manning's youtube clps, I was a little disappointed...I remember him as being much funnier than that...I suppose he's dated...but there was a time that he was funny...in between the other stuff.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> But just know...if that was me, I'd say so...why wouldn't I ? I always own up to my indiscretions, at least once I'm 'caught'. Since I can't actually prove that wasn't me...although neither can you prove it was...I don't suppose this counts as being 'caught' so I might not own up on this occasion so ban me anyway. That way I've got fuck all to lose, have I? And since I've got fuck all to lose I may as well come clean...so here goes: It wasn't me!


Did you know firky before you posted here? He seemed very keen to welcome you at the time, so forgive me for being curious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> At least 8 people have access to this IP address, two of whom are here now finding this whole thing most entertaining.


i think this gives the game away somewhat


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

No. I know nobody on here...well except the guy who posted about the anarchist bookshop. Nor am I well acquainted with the urban zeitgeist or whatever you called it. There's clearly something that has gone on here that I know nothing about involving dodgy accounts and I can see I've walked into the middle it so fair enough. I'm back because I'm off work with a broken ankle and thought I'd kill a bit of time. Clearly my timing was bang off. I fucked off last time because someone doubted what I was saying about my locality and its degree of antisocial behaviour and general criminality and, given the hand that I'd been dealt at the time, my credibility was about all I had to give a shit about.
I live in middlesbrough; an especially insalubrious bit of Middlesbrough. It's recently emerged that Middlesbrough tops the national league for both antisocial behaviour and for weapons seized during stop and search...everyone carries a knife.  Now given that there are 'nice' bits of Middlesbrough and problem behaviour is concentrated in certain areas...namely, outside my fuckin front door...perhaps your other moderator might like to acknowledge that stepping outside at night for a pint of milk might indeed prove a daunting task...especially for my teenage daughter. Only last time, I was dismissed as something of a fantasist.
The weird thing is that when I fucked off last time, I'd hit a bit of an all time low...financially, drink-related the lot...always to a backdrop of little gobshite would-be gangsters making everyone's life a misery. Having someone tell me I was making that stuff up was just a bit too much. Then a few days after signing off, quite unaccountably, I got offered a really good job and have been doing better than I have for years. I'm even thinking of moving. It's just a bit too ironic that I come back and get accused of being a sock puppet. If I'm gonna say something I'll say it and I'm not apologising for or owning up for something I haven't done...weird coincidence or not. So ban me please. I can do without this shit.


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Wasn't Ronnie a Teacher in the NE? Firk/ern?


Yep.  He knew to much about the boro to be Firky,  imo.  It all sounded genuine.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i think this gives the game away somewhat



No you don't. You just don't know about the set-up where I live...and you ought to be grateful for that, not chipping in with your childish speculations. You're a lousy poster and your intuition's no better than your logic. Get over yourself or say exactly what you mean. Little snide gnomic accusations are about your limit it seems. Either spell out what you mean or wind your neck in.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

All the mods huddled round the shiny mod panel furiously running multiple account detection


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> No you don't. You just don't know about the set-up where I live...and you ought to be grateful for that, not chipping in with your childish speculations. You're a lousy poster and your intuition's no better than your logic. Get over yourself or say exactly what you mean. Little snide gnomic accusations are about your limit it seems. Either spell out what you mean or wind your neck in.


i am grateful i do not have the dubious pleasure of your company. and you're of dubious quality through and through, with your harking back to the halcyon days of yore when bernard manning was flavour of the month, your claims of being persecuted, your VERY flimsy story about banned posters - not one but two it seems - using your computer.

if as you say all is above board then why did you suddenly disappear in january and not post till now - especially strange if there are, as you say, people formerly associated with this site in your home?

i think you are one of or in the milieu of the people who were banned the other night. and if i were editor you'd have been banned several hours since.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

This is Ronnie. Before I'm banned I'd just like to say how much I value my mate Alan. He's a prince among men a real diamond and I'd like to state here in public that the £20 I lent him was a gift and I don't want it back. Now you can ban me.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

10


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> 10


bo derek


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

9


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> 9


lords a leaping


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

8


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> 8


the right amount: not nine, which is one over the eight


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickford

Fuckin hell you don't give up do you. That thing your siting on is your arse. The bendy bit half way down your arm is called your elbow. Hope that helps.
I'm so glad about being banned I think I'll take Alan down the pub later then buy him a curry...in fact I swear this is what I'm doing.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2013)

When Ronnie first appeared I thought it was rory


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickford! lol


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> When Ronnie first appeared I thought it was rory


hope springs eternal


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Pickford
> 
> Fuckin hell you don't give up do you. That thing your siting on is your arse. The bendy bit half way down your arm is called your elbow. Hope that helps.
> I'm so glad about being banned I think I'll take Alan down the pub later then buy him a curry...in fact I swear this is what I'm doing.


grand


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Did you know firky before you posted here? He seemed very keen to welcome you at the time, so forgive me for being curious.


 
 As if someone like Ronnie would give a squeak like firky the time of day.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> This is Ronnie. Before I'm banned I'd just like to say how much I value my mate Alan. He's a prince among men a real diamond and I'd like to state here in public that the £20 I lent him was a gift and I don't want it back. Now you can ban me.


 
Alan - it's an anagram of anal.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Vain attempt to get back on topick.
Anyone else follow Richard Dawkins? 
Now he is BONKERS!


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

ooh, ok. i will do shortly.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Vain attempt to get back on topick.
> Anyone else follow Richard Dawkins?
> Now he is BONKERS!


That's been funny today.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> no, loads of people thought he was unfunny at the time. its fuck all to do with laurie penny and frankly theres not much to choose between them.


 
I can only think of two comedians I really disliked in the '70s, Manning and Stan fucking Boardman, and for the same reason - the sly "nod and a wink" delivery.  If you're telling a good joke, you don't need to make the audience feel like they're part of your clique.


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

that 'religion - together we can find the cure' t-shirt is embarrassing enough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I just resent the idea I'm defending Manning cos I'm either a closet bigot or that I'm trying to provoke a row. It's just that I look for the best in people.


 
"I'm not a bigot, I'm just totally naive".


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

There's a striking similarity between Dawkins' logo and that of Golden Dawn


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Vain attempt to get back on topick.
> Anyone else follow Richard Dawkins?
> Now he is BONKERS!



Richard Dawkins may have too ascetic a style for some and no real empathy for any worldview which strays outside the domain of pure scientific rationalism, but he's a highly talented evolutionary biologist. You have failed to separate the mam's message from his essential skill-set It's fuckin Bernard Manning all over again.
As far as I can see you're just pure trolling; setting up another doomed debate.
And why haven't I been banned yet?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's been funny today.


That nonsense about Nobel Prize winners!


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> That nonsense about Nobel Prize winners!


I know, it's embarrassing


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Richard Dawkins may have too ascetic a style for some and no real empathy for any worldview which strays outside the domain of pure scientific rationalism, but he's a highly talented evolutionary biologist. You have failed to separate the mam's message from his essential skill-set It's fuckin Bernard Manning all over again.
> As far as I can see you're just pure trolling; setting up another doomed debate.
> And why haven't I been banned yet?


Lulzzzzzzzzz


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Lulzzzzzzzzz


#tweetlikedawkins

Ascetic, it's not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> There's a striking similarity between Dawkins' logo and that of Golden Dawn


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> #tweetlikedawkins
> 
> Ascetic, it's not.


True enough. That's some kinda autocorrect. Meant acerbic. Cheers.


----------



## cesare (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>


The Greek one


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

T & P said:


> I bet Jim Davidson is also liked and rated as a comedian by some in here.


 
Said the Davidson fan, attempting to find out whether he had any fellow humour-free gits on the thread.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Richard Dawkins may have too ascetic a style for some and no real empathy for any worldview which strays outside the domain of pure scientific rationalism, but he's a highly talented evolutionary biologist. You have failed to separate the mam's message from his essential skill-set It's fuckin Bernard Manning all over again.
> As far as I can see you're just pure trolling; setting up another doomed debate.
> And why haven't I been banned yet?


Do you just like anyone who is an obvious tosser?


----------



## fogbat (Aug 8, 2013)

emanymton said:


> Do you just like anyone who is an obvious tosser?


I don't think he's said anything about me


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

I never really liked Bernard Manning even when he was one of the biggest names on the box every Sunday on The Comedians when I was a kid. I know lots of people who rated him as a comic though.

When I got a bit older I used to wish he would play the Club I collected glasses in. We used to do the curtains for the 'turns' and I would loved to have pissed in his pint... as I once did to some clown called Ian 'Sludge' Lees.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 8, 2013)

fogbat said:


> I don't think he's said anything about me


Well he told me he thinks your really great, he is just too embarrassed to say so himself.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

emanymton said:


> Do you just like anyone who is an obvious tosser?



No. Sometimes it not so obvious.

But, actually, I'm not that fond of Dawkins. He's missing something...almost like he's a bit Asberger's...which makes him come across as a bit clinical. But on the whole, it's the complete lack of self-doubt. I don't trust that in anyone. The stuff he actually spouts is rarely that controversial just a bit self-satisfied.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

emanymton said:


> Well he told me he thinks your really great, he is just too embarrassed to say so himself.



He's right. I fuckin love you.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Ian 'Sludge' Lees.


you bastard. how dare you. the mighty ian 'sludge' lees.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

I used to love The Grumbleweeds. It was way better than The Comedians


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you bastard. how dare you. the mighty ian 'sludge' lees.


 

is that a bit of localism creeping in DK?


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I used to love The Grumbleweeds. It was way better than The Comedians


 

But never on at the same time, so you didn't have to make a choice. I hated The Comedians mostly although I'm sure I loved it before I was 11 or so.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you're telling a good joke, you don't need to make the audience feel like they're part of your clique.


 

you do on Urban


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Vain attempt to get back on topick.
> Anyone else follow Richard Dawkins?
> Now he is BONKERS!


 
What's with the "topick"? You're not into magick wancking are you?


----------



## Dandred (Aug 8, 2013)

Roll call!


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What's with the "topick"? You're not into magick wancking are you?


Only just noticed that. Either weird autocorrecting or I have unconsciously absorbed the spirit of Pickman's. <shudders>


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Only just noticed that. Either weird autocorrecting or I have unconsciously absorbed the spirit of Pickman's. <shudders>


 
or you've been pickman's model's sockpuppet all along?


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> or you've been pickman's model's sockpuppet all along?


 
they're both librarians.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> they're both librarians.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Only just noticed that. Either weird autocorrecting or I have unconsciously absorbed the spirit of Pickman's. <shudders>


 
He is possessed!!! 

Burn him!!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> they're both librarians.


 
What do their sexual preferences have to do with anything?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Only just noticed that. Either weird autocorrecting or I have unconsciously absorbed the spirit of Pickman's. <shudders>


 
or you just whacked the keyboard and spelt the word right by mistake


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> or you just whacked the keyboard and spelt the word right by mistake


 
give a million orangutans a million smartphones and eventually...


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Yep.  He knew to much about the boro to be Firky,  imo.  It all sounded genuine.



I'd be inclined to agree. He know's Eston! The only other posters on here that know there apart from me you and badseed  are 

Spanky Longhorn and krink afaict.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Never a fan of Pratchett but I like his librarian:


> An orangutan seemed such a natural shape for a librarian


http://www.chrisjoneswriting.com/1/category/librarian orangutane35a6ef759/1.html


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> is that a bit of localism creeping in DK?


if it's good enough for frances....



actually, he's proper fucking shit. nobody round here likes him either.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd be inclined to agree. He know's Eston! The only other posters on here that know there apart from me you and badseed are
> 
> Spanky Longhorn and krink afaict.


 
agreed


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> There's a striking similarity between Dawkins' logo and that of Golden Dawn


 
that river island shop lhas a logo like Golden Dawn as well.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

i went to middlesbrough a couple of years ago, thought it was ok. better than newcastle.
i went to ayresome park twenty years ago though, that was shit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i think this gives the game away somewhat





Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I live in middlesbrough; an especially insalubrious bit of Middlesbrough. It's recently emerged that Middlesbrough tops the national league for both antisocial behaviour and for weapons seized during stop and search...everyone carries a knife.  Now given that there are 'nice' bits of Middlesbrough and problem behaviour is concentrated in certain areas...



Where in boro are you? Are you or any of your mates activists?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> that river island shop lhas a logo like Golden Dawn as well.


 
British fash clubbers visiting various Greek islands have been wearing River Island shirts in solidarity with the Greek fash


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i went to middlesbrough a couple of years ago, thought it was ok. better than newcastle.
> i went to ayresome park twenty years ago though, that was shit.



It was shit because you lost? Or because you beat a shit team in a depressing locale?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Detroit techno legend Jeff Mills is also clearly a fash. Look at his label name and logo:


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

'certain areas...'

Middle class, then.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i went to middlesbrough a couple of years ago, thought it was ok. better than newcastle.
> i went to ayresome park twenty years ago though, that was shit.


 
er when you say better than in Newcastle in what way? Where you on drugs or something? (no offence Boronians)


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> if it's good enough for frances....
> 
> actually, he's proper fucking shit. nobody round here likes him either.


 
One of his more memorable 'jokes' was "Is there any pakis in? I fuckin hate pakis, me. Have you heard about the new deodorant for Pakis? It's called Vanish. You spray it on, they disappear and everyone wonders where the smell is coming from". Oh how the assembeld ranks of Brummie aspirant-yuppies adored him.

He arrived late one night and tossed my mate Stuart his car keys to park his motor (it was a posh club in the Country donchaknow). He did. And pissed on the back seat while he was at it.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> er when you say better than in Newcastle in what way? Where you on drugs or something? (no offence Boronians)


 
Boronians? Does 'Mackams' include Middlesbrough?


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> It was shit because you lost? Or because you beat a shit team in a depressing locale?


we lost as the wind and rain howled across our open terrace. saw jackie charlton eating a pie though, that was good.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Boronians? Does 'Mackams' include Middlesbrough?


 
nope.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Oh, Casually Red knows boro aswell. Dunno if he knows Eston though. The Black Hand perhaps does aswell. There can't be more than ten people on here though. It's not better than Newcastle though. Especially if you're a tourist!


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Boronians? Does 'Mackams' include Middlesbrough?



No. It's specific to Sunderland and how they talk (they makem and takem rather than make them and take them). Boro folk are Smoggies. Do the math.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Boronians? Does 'Mackams' include Middlesbrough?


 
Mackems are as krink will tell you natives of Sunderland


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> we lost as the wind and rain howled across our open terrace. saw jackie charlton eating a pie though, that was good.


 
I once ate a pie in a hail storm outside a bail hostel in Southbank


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Where in boro are you? Are you or any of your mates activists?



Well actually, I'm not especially inclined to reveal my location. That's not exactly the usual etiquette is it? Anyway...I'm kinda waiting to be banned...for apparently leading a bunch of virtual sleuths to suspect that I'm someone who I gather did something a few days ago which I know fuck all about. As you can imagine, I'm not exactly getting good vibes from this place. 
Yeah, some of my mates are kinda activists in a loose sense..as you know political activism round here isn't exactly a major 'force'.
But that's largely in the past and we're kinda reduced to winding up liberals online...which sorta serves a purpose.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> we lost as the wind and rain howled across our open terrace. saw jackie charlton eating a pie though, that was good.



Welcome to Boro. Losing there is a bit shit though!


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> er when you say better than in Newcastle in what way? Where you on drugs or something? (no offence Boronians)


the people. they looked normal in boro. in newcastle every single bloke looked like a steroid abusing ape that had been shaved, dipped in fake tan, given a shit haircut then forced to wear a capped sleeve tshirt two sizes too small.
that shopping centre in gateshead was even worse.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I once ate a pie in a hail storm outside a bail hostel in Southbank



Top Smoggie trumps!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> the people. they looked normal in borough. in newcastle every single bloke looked like a steroid abusing ape that had been shaved, dipped in fake tan, given a shit haircut then forced to wear a capped sleeve tshirt.
> that shopping centre in gateshead was even worse.


 
fair enough if people who look like potatoes look normal to you  (you're right about Newcastle city centre though)


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh, Casually Red  It's not better than Newcastle though. Especially if you're a tourist!


i think it looked a bit like the black country but smaller and near the sea.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> fair enough if people who look like potatoes look normal to you


more than normal, blood relatives.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> we're kinda reduced to winding up liberals online...which sorta serves a purpose.



It does. It also reveals that you're no activist I know in Boro and more likely previously connected to this site than anything happening in Teesside.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> the people. they looked normal in borough. in newcastle every single bloke looked like a steroid abusing ape that had been shaved, dipped in fake tan, given a shit haircut then forced to wear a capped sleeve tshirt.


 

as opposed to the elegantly attired, immaculately coiffed, and perfectly groomed metrosexuals of the black country?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> more than normal, blood relatives.


 
hmm can't post pictures for some reason


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> It does. It also reveals that you're no activist I know in Boro and more likely previously connected to this site than anything happening in Teesside.


 


detective-smoggy-boy... the lord mayor of leftism


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> we're kinda reduced to winding up liberals online...which sorta serves a purpose.


 
you're taking the piss now.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> as opposed to the elegantly attired, immaculately coiffed, and perfectly groomed metrosexuals of the black country?


no. we look like potatoes.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> the people. they looked normal in borough. in newcastle every single bloke looked like a steroid abusing ape that had been shaved, dipped in fake tan, given a shit haircut then forced to wear a capped sleeve tshirt.
> that shopping centre in gateshead was even worse.



That's what working class areas look like.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I once ate a pie in a hail storm outside a bail hostel in Southbank



Fuck this I'm banning myself. This is getting spooky...like PRISM's tapping into memories. Seriously, that is just weird.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Fuck this I'm banning myself. This is getting spooky...like PRISM's tapping into memories. Seriously, that is just weird.


 
surely it's a Boro right of passage


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> no. we look like potatoes.


 
i personally look like a chip with a jersey mid balanced on top. you are what you eat, i suppose.


----------



## Dandred (Aug 8, 2013)

Urban vs people who got better jobs.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> detective-smoggy-boy... the lord mayor of leftism



You forget that I was in AFA don't you? Doesn't bother me that I know who you are and you have no idea who I am. Let's leave it there.


----------



## Dandred (Aug 8, 2013)

Fuck sakes


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Dandred said:


> Fuck sakes



Stop being such a terrible snob.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> You forget that I was in AFA don't you? Doesn't bother me that I know who you are and you have no idea who I am. Let's leave it there.


 
No. I know who you are.

But lots of ye on here all seem to be caught up in this Salem-esque, firkygate cock-endery and the constant accusing of people of being firky/Ern sock-puppets is boring the hole clean off me. It's on nearly every thread ffs.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

what is it facepalming about now?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> surely it's a Boro right of passage



I suppose so...then I did two weeks sweeping up in Slavery kitchens. Such such were the joys...

But it was the pie and the rain I was talking about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> No. I know who you are.
> 
> But lots of ye on here all seem to be caught up in this Salem-esque, firkygate cock-endery and the constant accusing of people of being firky/Ern sock-puppets is boring the hole clean off me. It's on nearly every thread ffs.


Salem-esque? No girls making accusations of witchcraft here


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Salem-esque? No girls making accusations of witchcraft here



Keep telling yourself that


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd be inclined to agree. He know's Eston! The only other posters on here that know there apart from me you and badseed are
> 
> Spanky Longhorn and krink afaict.


 
Three more boro people? I never knew that!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Keep telling yourself that


Yes dear


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Three more boro people? I never knew that!


 
It's a veritable smog-fest. Ye'll be meeting for pies and buckfast before this night is done.

e2a ye've all gone quiet. Smog-fest now a PM event is it?


----------



## T & P (Aug 8, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Said the Davidson fan, attempting to find out whether he had any fellow humour-free gits on the thread.


He does wonderful work entertaining Our Boys in Afghanistan.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Three more boro people? I never knew that!



Nah. A Mackum and Spanky Longhorn knows the ne pretty well.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Three more boro people? I never knew that!


 
You need to demand your own sub-forum


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> You need to demand your own sub-forum


 
great idea. 


we could barricade the doors.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> It's a veritable smog-fest. Ye'll be meeting for pies and buckfast before this night is done.



It's a  parmo with a bottle of Bucky...pies demand cider or a bottle of Thunderbird...cuts through the umami. You're a fuckin peasant.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> You need to demand your own sub-forum



Threads like 'how shit is the north?' and 'photos of how shit the north is' would make it the best forum on here. Did they even get started in there?


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> You need to demand your own sub-forum


 
We do indeed 

Smogmonsters of the Boro unite! You have nothing to lose but your place in the midlands forum!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

I had a parmo once


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Threads like 'how shit is the north?' and 'photos of how shit the north is' would make it the best forum on here. Did they even get started in there?



I tell you what would make a good thread: "what the commentariat are saying about the boro this week...month...decade"


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)




----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2013)

I learnt about Parmos on urban, one day I'm visiting Middlesbrough just to try one.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I learnt about Parmos on urban, one day I'm visiting Middlesbrough just to try one.


 
itz not werf it!


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm sure you can get one from a local deli


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> I tell you what would make a good thread: "what the commentariat are saying about the boro this week...month...decade"



Exactly! We're left to poke fun ourselves about where we live and our social conditions!


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

You can buy them only in Boro, Stockton and Billingham. Maybe Hatlepool?

Or online: http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/asda...y_meals/jeff_the_chef_chicken_parmo_450g.html


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh, Casually Red knows boro aswell. Dunno if he knows Eston though. The Black Hand perhaps does aswell. There can't be more than ten people on here though. It's not better than Newcastle though. Especially if you're a tourist!


 
It certainly isn't better than Newcastle.

But there's more than 10 people I reckon. You've missed out farmerbarleymow, leftistangel and lemontop! and I maybe think tommers has some relationship to Teesside?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I learnt about Parmos on urban, one day I'm visiting Middlesbrough just to try one.



Yeah, watch that. Get one with real chicken in. There's a kinda ersatz version made with reconstituted chicken matter. If you want something edible, go with the former. If it's the authentic experience you're after, go for the second after 8 pints of Stella and get someone to smack you in the mouth while you're in the queue.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> You can buy them only in Boro, Stockton and Billingham. Maybe Hatlepool?
> 
> Or online: http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/asda...y_meals/jeff_the_chef_chicken_parmo_450g.html


 
the one I had was in Ingleby Barwick


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, watch that. Get one with real chicken in. There's a kinda ersatz version made with reconstituted chicken matter. If you want something edible, go with the former. If it's the authentic experience you're after, go for the second after 8 pints of Stella and get someone to smack you in the mouth while you're in the queue.


 
Right, now I'm beginning to doubt you.  A true parmo doesn't contain chicken!


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> the one I had was in Ingleby Barwick


 
Where the people who think they're too posh for boro go to live!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Where the people who think they're too posh for boro go to live!


 
yes but they took their parmos with them. of course the people who really are too posh for Boro live in Wynyard


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Aug 8, 2013)

Parmos...violence.  Welcome to Stockton High Street.


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

i had a parmo in washington, it's not just teeside these days. it was ok. good concept, execution a bit shit, but it was a takeaway - what else can you expect?


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> yes but they took their parmos with them. of course the people who really are too posh for Boro live in Wynyard


 
Yep, or Stokesley or Yarm.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Yep, or Stokesley or Yarm.


 
Yarm is quite nice I would live there if I had to live in Cleveland


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Exactly! We're left to poke fun ourselves about where we live and our social conditions!


you should go to tipton, then you'd see how good you got it.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Right, now I'm beginning to doubt you.  A true parmo doesn't contain chicken!


 
Au contraire. You can get em in Newboulds butchers and some place in Ormesby..and the chicken's actual chicken. Mind you that was about 5 years back.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

tipton boilers, a quality football team


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you should go to tipton, then you'd see how good you got it.


 
What's their speciality dish? You're going to have to come up with something pretty impressive to beat a Parmo.


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> i had a parmo in washington, it's not just teeside these days. it was ok. good concept, execution a bit shit, but it was a takeaway - what else can you expect?


 
Well, that's news to me. Can't beat a Teesside parmo though. You could go to the World Parmo Championships and taste the finest parmos man has to offer!


----------



## binka (Aug 8, 2013)

i realise I'm about 8 hours and 10 pages behind everyone else but why do people go on about bernard manning being a great joke teller? what timing! he told the same fucking jokes night after night for forty fucking years of course he's going to be half decent at it!


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Yep, or Stokesley or Yarm.


i knew a woman from yarm. when asked where she was from she just made this weird noise, like a mewling cat. nobody could figure out she was saying 'yarm', it had to be translated for us. she was well weird.


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i knew a woman from yarm. when asked where she was from she just made this weird noise, like a mewling cat. nobody could figure out she was saying 'yarm', it had to be translated for us. she was well weird.


 
People from Teesside are weird, that's why. When I was nearly old enough to drink, me and my mates thought Yarm was the height of sophistication, so we bought suits and used to try to get in pubs on the High Street  Even went clubbing in a suit in Yarm. (there aren't enough facepalms).


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

binka said:


> i realise I'm about 8 hours and 10 pages behind everyone else but why do people go on about bernard manning being a great joke teller? what timing! he told the same fucking jokes night after night for forty fucking years of course he's going to be half decent at it!



Exactly.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> tipton boilers, a quality football team


is that the team from 'the lagoon' that are sponsored by the bnp? i think the lagoon has shut down now, shithole.


----------



## binka (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Exactly.


that doesn't make him special. any bloke doing the same thing for forty years would become equally skilled at it. this does not make him worthy of any reappraisal


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Belushi said:


> What's their speciality dish? You're going to have to come up with something pretty impressive to beat a Parmo.


grorty dick. biled baecun n gray pays. faggits.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> People from Teesside are weird, that's why. When I was nearly old enough to drink, me and my mates thought Yarm was the height of sophistication, so we bought suits and used to try to get in pubs on the High Street  Even went clubbing in a suit in Yarm. (there aren't enough facepalms).



Jumping Jaks...those were the days?  The Bongo?....or is this place a nest of bourgeois pretension?


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

binka said:


> that doesn't make him special. any bloke doing the same thing for forty years would become equally skilled at it. this does not make him worthy of any reappraisal


 

lots of blokes are shagging for 40 years. Doesn't mean they have to be any good at it.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Jumping Jaks...those were the days? The Bongo?....or is this place a nest of bourgeois pretension?


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> lots of blokes are shagging for 40 years. Doesn't mean they have to be any good at it.



It does if people pay to watch


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2013)

thanks to dk I've just realised when my cat wants to throw up it cries 'yarm' 'yarm' 'yarm'


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> It does if people pay to watch


 

Nah. Me and the Missus paid into a Live sex show in Amsterdam... it was shit. it was a wet tuesday afternoon in October and the entire audience was made up of our fellow tourists off the Hull boat


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Nah. Me and the Missus paid into a Live sex show in Amsterdam... it was shit. it was a wet tuesday afternoon in October and the entire audience was made up of our fellow tourists off the Hull boat


Yeah, but had they been doing it for 40 years?


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> thanks to dk I've just realised when my cat wants to throw up it cries 'yarm' 'yarm' 'yarm'


i've got it stuck in my head now. yyaaam.


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Jumping Jaks...those were the days? The Bongo?....or is this place a nest of bourgeois pretension?


 
Jumpin Jaks is long gone isn't it?


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> grorty dick. biled baecun n gray pays. faggits.


 
don't you have battered chips too? they sound fucking spesh to me. <3


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> don't you have battered chips too? they sound fucking spesh to me. <3


 
Is that a thing? I always thought they would be amazing but I have never seen them anywhere!

*drool*


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, but had they been doing it for 40 years?


 

They looked bored enough to have been


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Is that a thing? I always thought they would be amazing but I have never seen them anywhere!
> 
> *drool*


 

only midget scallops innit.

I remeber my disgust when I discovered real scallops' were actually shellfish rather than a slice of battered spud.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> don't you have battered chips too? they sound fucking spesh to me. <3


they are ace. i only mentioned the shit stuff that's 'traditional', which, to be honest, i've never even tasted. boiled bacon and grey peas looks and smells fucking revolting.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

LiamO said:


> only midget scallops innit.
> 
> I remeber my disgust when I discovered real scallops' were actually shellfish rather than a slice of battered spud.


noooo, my friend,


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

lush. want me some.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you should go to tipton, then you'd see how good you got it.



That concept seems a bit surreal.


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2013)

discokermit said:


> they are ace. i only mentioned the shit stuff that's 'traditional', which, to be honest, i've never even tasted. boiled bacon and grey peas looks and smells fucking revolting.


 
boiled bacon & grey peas sounds lush to me, but i'm happy to go with the battered chips. it's all good.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 8, 2013)

Nowt wrong with boiled bacon... although you should be civilised and have it with spring cabbage and Kerr's Pinks or Dublin Queens


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Well, that's news to me. Can't beat a Teesside parmo though. You could go to the World Parmo Championships and taste the finest parmos man has to offer!



Make him name where he got it!


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Aug 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> i had a parmo in washington, it's not just teeside these days. it was ok. good concept, execution a bit shit, but it was a takeaway - what else can you expect?


 
It is Teesside not teeside 

Bloody Lancastrians.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Jumpin Jaks is long gone isn't it?




Yeah. I think the floor was collapsing. Certainly felt like it. Car Park these days.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> That concept seems a bit surreal.


i took this photo in tipton last week,







what goes 'clipclop clipclop, bang bang, clipclop clipclop'?

a tipton driveby shooting.


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah. I think the floor was collapsing. Certainly felt like it. Car Park these days.


 
I thought they built some multi-colour, multi-storey student accommodation thing?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

I need to be reminded at some point to finish the argument with Liam. Well it's not really an argument. It's more him calling me something then his own reaction. I'm sure he knows that though. He's not daft.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Doesn't seem like anyone's wanting to lay into the commentariat. I think that's a good thing on the whole. They aren't really worth the effort. So much of it now is incestuous. Someone writes something vaguely controversial...that spawns eight articles about the original...somewhere along the line someone objects to one of the articles and says so...this gets a robust response...bingo! Commentariat Spat...cue article about the row...cue 10 more about..."aren't ya just sick of these Internet spats"...long as somewhere along the line, someone else has written something vaguely controversial then we can start all over again. Fuck the lot of them. They should fuck off and live on an island.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> I thought they built some multi-colour, multi-storey student accommodation thing?



Car park last time I saw.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Doesn't seem like anyone's wanting to lay into the commentariat. I think that's a good thing on the whole. They aren't really worth the effort. So much of it now is incestuous. Someone writes something vaguely controversial...that spawns eight articles about the original...somewhere along the line someone objects to one of the articles and says so...this gets a robust response...bingo! Commentariat Spat...cue article about the row...cue 10 more about..."aren't ya just sick of these Internet spats"...long as somewhere along the line, someone else has written something vaguely controversial then we can start all over again. Fuck the lot of them. They should fuck off and live on an island.


 
You didn't get the memo? Newsflash. The Commentariat surrendered. Urban won. Job done. Game over. Go home. Goodnight.


----------



## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 8, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> You didn't get the memo? Newsflash. The Commentariat surrendered. Urban won. Job done. Game over. Go home. Goodnight.



Nice one. Was it unconditional or did they get to keep the odd guest spot on CIF and the Twitter accounts?


----------



## badseed (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Yeah, watch that. Get one with real chicken in. There's a kinda ersatz version made with reconstituted chicken matter. If you want something edible, go with the former. If it's the authentic experience you're after, go for the second after 8 pints of Stella and get someone to smack you in the mouth while you're in the queue.


 
Despite living in Middlesbrough until 1999 I have never had a parmo. I even went to the Europa (??) a couple of times but just had chips.

I am returning to the UK after a 14 year absence at the end of the month and I will visit boro just to show my kids 
I am still not going to eat a parmo, although I might get a upex or newboulds pie. Anything could happen.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 8, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Nice one. Was it unconditional or did they get to keep the odd guest spot on CIF and the Twitter accounts?


 
Fully unconditional but not really. Urban Poliza Supervisionatzi has full control of those things that matter but anyway it's over, gadanga, capisce?


----------



## Fez909 (Aug 9, 2013)

badseed said:


> Despite living in Middlesbrough until 1999 I have never had a parmo. I even went to the Europa (??) a couple of times but just had chips.
> 
> I am returning to the UK after a 14 year absence at the end of the month and I will visit boro just to show my kids
> I am still not going to eat a parmo, although I might get a upex or newboulds pie. Anything could happen.


 
I've only had one or two, actually. I prefer pizza 

And apologies for forgetting you are from boro! I remember you saying you were coming back, and we talked about your bike which you got from Parly Road.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> You didn't get the memo? Newsflash. The Commentariat surrendered. Urban won. Job done. Game over. Go home. Goodnight.


 
its true, penny's working in catford tesco now and owen just tried to blag a quid off me in the street for a can


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2013)

George Monbiot just got barred from poundstretcher, nicking stuff again


----------



## badseed (Aug 9, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> I've only had one or two, actually. I prefer pizza
> 
> And apologies for forgetting you are from boro! I


 

Don't worry, I am trying to forget too.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

smokedout said:


> George Monbiot just got barred from poundstretcher, nicking stuff again


 
makes me think of an idea for a new sitcom/soap where John Sessions and Phil Cornwell play all the characters...


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2013)

that could work, with a cameo by Babs Windsor as Polly Toynbee


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2013)

T & P said:


> He does wonderful work entertaining Our Boys in Afghanistan.


 
If only one of them would go postal on the cunt!


----------



## love detective (Aug 9, 2013)

smokedout said:


> its true, penny's working in catford tesco now


 
Penny would fucking explode if she ever set foot in catford tesco

working class people of all stripes (white, black, asian, male, female, gay, transvestite, straight, 'loonies' etc..) all getting on with stuff perfectly integrated and on the whole treating each other as equals and with respect*, and doing so instinctively because they recognise they have more shared experience and things in common with each other than things that divide them. All done as part of ordinary day to day life without a moment's thought, consideration or introspective reflection on doing it - unlike the fake, agonised, laboured, condescending way that she and her type seem to think should govern the social interaction & relations of others

* apart from the odd machete wielding lunatic


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 9, 2013)

Ah, but Penny's lived in poverty; which was probably the pet name she gave to her squat.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 9, 2013)

Diddly squat


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 9, 2013)

Very good.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 9, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Very good.


I'm here all week...


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 9, 2013)

I'll get you some bookings.


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Doesn't seem like anyone's wanting to lay into the commentariat. I think that's a good thing on the whole. They aren't really worth the effort. So much of it now is incestuous. Someone writes something vaguely controversial...that spawns eight articles about the original...somewhere along the line someone objects to one of the articles and says so...this gets a robust response...bingo! Commentariat Spat...cue article about the row...cue 10 more about..."aren't ya just sick of these Internet spats"...long as somewhere along the line, someone else has written something vaguely controversial then we can start all over again. Fuck the lot of them. They should fuck off and live on an island.


they do.  very occasionally one of them says something that gets noticed somewhere other than in their own rarified circles, but mostly they just talk to themselves.

That's a problem with this series of threads, gives them the impression they matter.

There are commentators with real influence though. Clarkson for example.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> There are commentators with real influence though. Clarkson for example.


 
I suspect you're mistaking popular and reasonably talented for influential here - he is popular exactly because he exactly reflects what lots of people are thinking in an entertaining way - to influence people's views he would have to be doing it in a way which added in some ideology of his own.


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

if he articulates something, and gets people talking about it he's moving the debate in exactly the way Ms Red would love to.  Isn't that influence?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> if he articulates something, and gets people talking about it he's moving the debate in exactly the way Ms Red would love to. Isn't that influence?


 
You just mean publicity then. Let's be clear.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

He doesn't have a lot of choice. He has been influential in supporting an existing reactionary position. He couldn't just say whatever he liked and have the same support.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

What debate that i'm part of is that clarkson  part of?


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What debate that i'm part of is that clarkson part of?


his robust, reactionary interventions have been across a whole range of issues, over many years.  They're far more likely to be discussed  by ordinaries than anything a commentariat ever says.  It's hard to avoid the fallout when he says something controversial.  You have to actively go looking for  columnists, it's vanishingly unlikely they'll find you as a chance conversation at work or in tesco.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He doesn't have a lot of choice. He has been influential in supporting an existing reactionary position. He couldn't just say whatever he liked and have the same support.


 
This post doesn't make much sense...

If he was influential (IE had influence) then surely he could say whatever he liked and have the same or similar levels of support? People with influence don't just move the debate forward, they shape it.

Not that I agree he even moves it forward - I think he provides colour to a certain mindset, but that has no real impact in terms of stirring anything up - it's also worth saying Clarkson does sometimes throw in curveballs where he is supportive of the left, off the top of my head he has claimed leftwing women are better looking than rightwing ones, and he has said stuff in support of trade unions (at a different time to calling for the N30 strikers to be shot in a very ironic and tongue in cheek way).

ETA: (obviously not saying that claiming left women are more attractive is actually a leftwing thing to say)


----------



## Nice one (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> they do. very occasionally one of them says something that gets noticed somewhere other than in their own rarified circles, but mostly they just talk to themselves.
> 
> That's a problem with this series of threads, gives them the impression they matter.
> 
> There are commentators with real influence though. Clarkson for example.


 
They don't matter. Not to ordinary people.

Clarkson on the other hand is a private school educated multi-millionaire who is one of the chipping norton set (currently in charge of the government and still very much part of murdoch media empire) part of the capitalist class in every sense of the word. His influence should never be based on what he actually says in his newspaper column.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> his robust, reactionary interventions have been across a whole range of issues, over many years. They're far more likely to be discussed by *ordinaries* than anything a commentariat ever says. It's hard to avoid the fallout when he says something controversial. You have to actively go looking for columnists, it's vanishingly unlikely they'll find you as a chance conversation at work or in tesco.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

Nice one said:


> They don't matter. Not to ordinary people.
> 
> Clarkson on the other hand is a private school educated multi-millionaire who is one of the chipping norton set (currently in charge of the government and still very much part of murdoch media empire) part of the capitalist class in every sense of the word. His influence should never be based on what he actually says in his newspaper column.


 
Are you saying that it is? That is isn't? What? What are you saying?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> his robust, reactionary interventions have been across a whole range of issues, over many years. They're far more likely to be discussed by ordinaries than anything a commentariat ever says. It's hard to avoid the fallout when he says something controversial. You have to actively go looking for columnists, it's vanishingly unlikely they'll find you as a chance conversation at work or in tesco.


 
I managed it. No one i know beyond my dad knows who he is. What sort of debate is this?


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

Nice one said:


> They don't matter. Not to ordinary people.
> 
> Clarkson on the other hand is a private school educated multi-millionaire who is one of the chipping norton set (currently in charge of the government and still very much part of murdoch media empire) part of the capitalist class in every sense of the word. His influence should never be based on what he actually says in his newspaper column.


Indeed, he's part of the populist appeal that sustains them.

Top gear is his main outlet. 
Look


Guinness Book of Records holder for most watched factual programme in the world 
Sold to 214 territories worldwide 
2 million subscribers to the Official Top Gear YouTube Channel with over 500 million video views 
19 million Facebook fans 
Top Gear Magazine global circulation: 1 million 
5.7 million unique users on Topgear.com 
Over 8.9 million downloads of Top Gear game apps 
Over 1.5 million visitors to Top Gear Live


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I managed it. No one i know beyond my dad knows who he is. What sort of debate is this?


you live in an odd bubble


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

In what way is appeal debate then? Am i in a national debate with Justin Bieber? (he's my fav)


----------



## love detective (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> Indeed, he's part of the populist appeal that sustains them.
> 
> Top gear is his main outlet.
> Look
> ...


 
has he ever been rescued by Ryan Gosling though?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> you live in an odd bubble


 
Yeah, one in which you confuse liking people on the internet  with - _hmm you are part of my debate. _There's trying to  be an understanding old fart too much. Sometimes.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> Indeed, he's part of the populist appeal that sustains them.
> 
> Top gear is his main outlet.
> Look
> ...


 
So you are in a debate with Queen and Iron Maiden right?


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

love detective said:


> has he ever been rescued by Ryan Gosling though?


 
damn, my point collapses


----------



## love detective (Aug 9, 2013)

to be fair that implies it had some kind of peak


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> you live in an odd bubble


 
No, you think people who have nothing to do with Clarkson live in a bubble. I'm not lying. So that makes you -the person living in a bubble that can't imagine a life without clarkson. Fuck off.


----------



## Nice one (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are you saying that it is? That is isn't? What? What are you saying?


 
i'm saying i watch top gear even though i don't drive. I'm saying i'd never read anything by laurie penny until you starting banging on about her on christmas day 2010, and every day since, _like it mattered._ Why does she matter to you? What does clarkson _represent?_


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

Nice one said:


> i'm saying i watch top gear even though i don't drive. I'm saying i'd never read anything by laurie penny until you starting banging on about her on christmas day 2010, and every day since, _like it mattered._ Why does she matter to you? What does clarkson _represent?_


 
Not really clear what you're saying at all here i'm afraid. Say it. Free-speaker.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> damn, my point collapses


 
you never had a point, you understand nothing.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

nice one said:
			
		

> i'm saying i watch top gear even though i don't drive. I'm saying i'd never read anything by laurie penny


 
Two massive fucking lies btw


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> This post doesn't make much sense...
> 
> If he was influential (IE had influence) then surely he could say whatever he liked and have the same or similar levels of support? People with influence don't just move the debate forward, they shape it.
> 
> ...


If you define influence strictly as being able to say whatever you want and have it change things, then no, I don't think Clarkson has influence. On the other hand he has the ability to change things when he addresses certain topics and tropes. And I don't think that influence means being able to say whatever you like, either - I can't think of anyone who could say anything on any topic and be greeted with the same level of interest and have the same level of impact.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

Stephen Fry. Today.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If you define influence strictly as being able to say whatever you want and have it change things, then no, I don't think Clarkson has influence. On the other hand he has the ability to change things when he addresses certain topics and tropes.


 
What? He can say things and change things or he can't?


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> In what way is appeal debate then? Am i in a national debate with Justin Bieber? (he's my fav)


are you in debate with any of the commenatriat?  Do they read you as you read them?  

yet there is, self evidently, all sorts of debate going on.  People talk to each other and they're far, far more likely to be responding to something Clarkson said on TG than to something LP says in the NS or a broadsheet.  You haven't noticed?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> What? He can say things and change things or he can't?


What I said. He can change some things in some directions. He can't change other things and/or in other directions.

Sorry, I'm a bit puzzled by this now.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 9, 2013)

What has Clarkson changed or affected, speed cameras maybe, don't know?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What I said. He can change some things in some directions. He can't change other things and/or in other directions.


 
Do you have any examples of what you mean by Clarkson changing some things in one direction and not in others?



> Sorry, I'm a bit puzzled by this now.


 
You're certainly puzzling me!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> are you in debate with any of the commenatriat? Do they read you as you read them?
> 
> yet there is, self evidently, all sorts of debate going on. People talk to each other and they're far, far more likely to be responding to something Clarkson said on TG than to something LP says in the NS or a broadsheet. You haven't noticed?


 
I didn't say that they were part of some debate we just all happened to be part of - you attributed that power to clarkson you weirdo.

So what? I said you have to live in some sort of crazy bubble to think that Clarkson dictates debates - either one where you think everyone else is a thick mug dictated too by top gear or some other crazy world wtf i don't care about him and never hear about him apart from people like you telling me again that he speaks for me. Double bubble.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I didn't say that they were part of some debate we just all happened to be part of - you attributed that power to clarkson you weirdo.
> 
> So what? I said you have to live in some sort of crazy bubble to think that Clarkson dictates debates - either one where you think everyone else is a thick mug dictated too by top gear or some other crazy world wtf i don't care about him and never hear about him apart from people like you telling me again that he speaks for me. Double bubble.


 
The ordinaries lap him up


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 9, 2013)

Apart from slagging Mexicans for being lazy and blathering on about health and safety etc...Have I missed something?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The ordinaries lap him up


 
There is a weird paternalism in newbies posts that assumes - _this is what the norms do think and talk about._ _Looks at the likes._


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Do you have any examples of what you mean by Clarkson changing some things in one direction and not in others?


I don't think it's all that controversial to say that his output on Top Gear and elsewhere has been influential in promoting and reinforcing a set of particular reactionary - anti-environmental, anti-feminist, casually racist - positions. I would also agree with what you said earlier, that sometimes he has said things in other directions, which have not had the same effect. They're not part of his media profile or backed by those who support that.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think it's all that controversial to say that his output on Top Gear and elsewhere has been influential in promoting and reinforcing a set of particular reactionary - anti-environmental, anti-feminist, casually racist - positions. I would also agree with what you said earlier, that sometimes he has said things in other directions, which have not had the same effect. They're not part of his media profile or backed by those who support that.


 
OK I see what you're saying, - I do disagree though with the idea that he is influential in that I don't see how he drives forward and shapes public debate, rather than simply being an entertainer who adds colour to certain popular and well established social tropes including some of those you mention.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> OK I see what you're saying, - I do disagree though with the idea that he is influential in that I don't see how he drives forward and shapes public debate, rather than simply being an entertainer who adds colour to certain popular and well established social tropes including some of those you mention.


I think he drives those tropes forward, and reinvigorates them. (Well, not any more really, but he used to.)

Like I said, maybe that doesn't mean he has personal influence since he's very limited in the areas that he's made a difference, but everyone is limited to some extent. Clarkson could probably have influence in other areas based on his position as a public figure if he put effort into it, but he doesn't seem to want to.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm interested in newbies idea that people who don't care what well paid celebs say are in some sort of elite bubble though.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think he drives those tropes forward, and reinvigorates them. (Well, not any more really, but he used to.)
> 
> Like I said, maybe that doesn't mean he has personal influence since he's very limited in the areas that he's made a difference, but everyone is limited to some extent. Clarkson could probably have influence in other areas based on his position as a public figure if he put effort into it, but he doesn't seem to want to.


 
I agree he could have influence if he wanted, but doesn't - I would imagine that he is more interested in earning a good living and having fun which seems fair enough.

You seem to be saying that he is a Schrodinger's Clarkson in the way he both does and doesn't have influence... Like some kind of "quantumn reactionary".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I agree he could have influence if he wanted, but doesn't - I would imagine that he is more interested in earning a good living and having fun which seems fair enough.
> 
> You seem to be saying that he is a Schrodinger's Clarkson in the way he both does and doesn't have influence... Like some kind of "quantumn reactionary".


This is what I don't understand about what you're posting. People can have more influence in certain areas than others. Clarkson can say what he likes about 18th century romantic poetry and it will have barely more more effect on the world than if I said it. There's no consistent influence score.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is what I don't understand about what you're posting. People can have more influence in certain areas than others. Clarkson can say what he likes about 18th century romantic poetry and it will have barely more more effect on the world than if I said it. There's no consistent influence score.


 
You keep saying where he doesn't have influence but seem reluctant to spell out and provide examples where he does have influence?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> You keep saying where he doesn't have influence but seem reluctant to spell out and provide examples where he does have influence?





FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think it's all that controversial to say that his output on Top Gear and elsewhere has been influential in promoting and reinforcing a set of particular reactionary - anti-environmental, anti-feminist, casually racist - positions.


? I could be more specific if you like. He says things about Mexicans and women etc, they change or reinforce stuff.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ? I could be more specific if you like. He says things about Mexicans and women etc, they change or reinforce stuff.


Yes I would like to you to demonstrate how what he has said has influenced society.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yes I would like to you to demonstrate how what he has said has influenced society.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


What level of proof are we talking here?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

Well I don't think we need to see progroms against women drivers - but maybe an example of a well publicised comment or statement by le Clarkson followed by you explaining why you think this has then had a noticible impact on the direction of society or at least wider debate within society seems reasonable? (obviously fair enough if you can't be arsed, not sure if I could at this time of night!)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Really, no, I can't be arsed, my Clarkson dossier is just over that side of the room and underneath all those papers and it would be a terrible faff to get it out.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Really, no, I can't be arsed, my Clarkson dossier is just over that side of the room and underneath all those papers and it would be a terrible faff to get it out.


 
Can you just sign this bit of paper to confirm that I've won this particular argument on the internet and I'll be on my way?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Can you just sign this bit of paper to confirm that I've won this particular argument on the internet and I'll be on my way?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

Date? That could be any time.


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

well, here's one.  



> The BBC's director general, Mark Thompson, and chairman Lord Patten have defended Jeremy Clarkson in the wake of his controversial comments on The One Show, describing Top Gear as one of the UK's leading cultural exports.
> Clarkson's appearance on the BBC1 teatime show, in which he said that striking public sector workers should be "executed in front of their families", generated around 32,000 complaints to the BBC and media regulator Ofcom.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2013)




----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

No kiss? Goodnight


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> well, here's one.


 
You spent a friday night doing that. And that's what you found. What bubble? Whose bubble.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 38900


 
fairplay i probably owe you something for that


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

and a 20 page thread on here.

maybe those saying he has no influence are right, though I think not.  So who does have influence?  Monbiot, LP, Harris, Callinicos, the other stars of these threads?  that's risible.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> and a 20 page thread on here.
> 
> maybe those saying he has no influence are right, though I think not. So who does have influence? Monbiot, LP, Harris, Callinicos, the other stars of these threads? that's risible.


 
Please do he equivalence argument rather thna leaving it to others.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 9, 2013)

I think Clarkson's got influence - He's down with them all, Cameron, Rebekah Brooks, all the Chipping Cleghorn swinging daddies of the groove. I used to think he was on an OK guy - i'm not into cars & I've never drove one but Top Gear I found watchable & I (overly charitably) thought Clarkson's persona was just that - A cultivated persona. I was really pissed off with him when i learnt he was one of the top bods. A feeling comparable to having a trusted dog that had one day, with no provocation, turned round and bit me.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> and a 20 page thread on here.
> 
> maybe those saying he has no influence are right, though I think not. So who does have influence? Monbiot, LP, Harris, Callinicos, the other stars of these threads? that's risible.


 
Yes because saying Clarkson is not influential means you must think that shower are - there can only be two, the reverse Highlander approach.


----------



## 1%er (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What debate that i'm part of is that clarkson part of?


Last time I saw you and Clarkson drinking Krug Brut 1988 at the Savoy's Beaufort bar the debate went like this:

*Clarkson*: The Veyron features an 8.0-litre, quad-turbocharged, W16 cylinder engine, equivalent to two narrow-angle V8 engines. Each cylinder has four valves for a total of 64, but the VR8 configuration of each bank allows two overhead camshafts to drive two banks of cylinders so only four camshafts are needed. The engine is fed by four turbochargers and displaces 7,993 cubic centimetres (487.8 cu in), with a square 86 by 86 mm (3.39 by 3.39 in) bore and stroke. The transmission is a dual-clutch direct-shift gearbox computer-controlled automatic with seven gear ratios, with magnesium paddles behind the steering wheel and a shift time of less than 150 milliseconds, built by Ricardo of England rather than Borg-Warner, who designed the six speed DSG used in the mainstream Volkswagen Group marques. The Veyron can be driven in either semi-automatic or fully automatic mode. A replacement transmission for the Veyron costs just over US$120,000. It also has permanent all-wheel drive using the Haldex Traction system. It uses special Michelin PAX run-flat tyres, designed specifically to accommodate the Veyron's top speed, and cost US$25,000 per set. The tyres can be mounted on the rims only in France, a service which costs US$70,000. Kerb weight is 1,888 kilograms (4,162 lb). This gives the car a power-to-weight ratio, according to Volkswagen Group's figures, of 446.3 metric horsepower (328 kW; 440 bhp) per ton.

*butchersapron*: But what about the workingclass?

*Clarkson*:  The car's wheelbase is 2,710 mm (106.7 in). Overall length is 4,462 mm (175.7 in) which gives 1,752.6 mm (69.0 in) of overhang. The width is 1,998 mm (78.7 in) and height 1,204 mm (47.4 in). The Bugatti Veyron has a total of ten radiators:

3 heat exchangers for the air-to-liquid intercoolers.
3 engine radiators.
1 for the air conditioning system.
1 transmission oil radiator.
1 differential oil radiator.
1 engine oil radiator
It has a drag coefficient of 0.41 (normal condition) and 0.36 (after lowering to the ground),and a frontal area of 2.07 m2 (22.3 sq ft).This gives it a drag area – the combination of drag coefficient and frontal area, represented as CdA – of 0.74 m2 (8.0 sq ft).

*butchersapron*: But what about the workingclass!!!!!!!!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

Miles Kington is alive and well and in talks with Lee Childs


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

I thought I did when I mentioned Clarkson.  You told me you don't know anyone except your dad who knows who he is. clearly either he's a non-entity or you live in a bubble.

So I'm asking who you think has an influential voice?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 9, 2013)

newbie said:


> So I'm asking who you think has an influential voice?


 
Lorraine Kelly


----------



## newbie (Aug 9, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yes because saying Clarkson is not influential means you must think that shower are - there can only be two, the reverse Highlander approach.


no, thats not what i said.  The LP thread has kept going because there's an feeling that the commentariat are worth talking about.  I think they're pretty much irrelevant, and suggest that Clarkson has more influence.  That idea has been shot down, by you and others, well ok, if not Clarkson, who has got influence?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> I thought I did when I mentioned Clarkson. You told me you don't know anyone except your dad who knows who he is. clearly either he's a non-entity or you live in a bubble.
> 
> So I'm asking who you think has an influential voice?


 


> you have to live in some sort of crazy bubble to think that Clarkson dictates debates - either one where you think everyone else is a thick mug dictated too by top gear or some other crazy world wtf i don't care about him and never hear about him apart from people like you telling me again that he speaks for me. Double bubble.


 
Simple right?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

Because newbie thinks he's brought it round to whether we accept he is a known person rather than someone who is part of debates. And this is demonstrated by facebook likes etc.  Give it up newbie ffs.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

The same old, _i don't know what the kids are doing but i hate the people who i'm told are against them_ rubbish. This generation gap you base all your wider posts on died when your sense of self-respect and decency did.


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

when I write _influences debate_ you translate that into _dictates debate_.  what's simple about that?

I'm not asking who influences you, but who, other than the major politicians, can crystalise and polarise, get people debating for and against? regularly and repeatedly.  That's what influence is about.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> when I write _influences debate_ you translate that into _dictates debate_. what's simple about that?
> 
> I'm not asking who influences you, but who, other than the major politicians, can crystalise and polarise, get people debating for and against? regularly and repeatedly. That's what influence is about.


 
How does that change anything? It only can if you agree with your main point. What was you point, i think that you could do with reminding.

I am in the bubble because no one i know is in the clarkson bubble. Listen to yourself. Listen to what you are asking yourself to agree with. Listen to yourself posting it, Then think again.

In a week you'll be saying that there is no public debate, that the the internet has fractured it. Oh, you did already didn't you?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> when I write _influences debate_ you translate that into _dictates debate_. what's simple about that?
> 
> I'm not asking who influences you, but who, other than the major politicians, can crystalise and polarise, get people debating for and against? regularly and repeatedly. That's what influence is about.


 
What debate?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> when I write _influences debate_ you translate that into _dictates debate_. what's simple about that?
> 
> I'm not asking who influences you, but who, other than the major politicians, can crystalise and polarise, get people debating for and against? regularly and repeatedly. That's what influence is about.


 
Who gets most likes. In which case, the meaningless nature of such an endaevour means your likes drown yourself in a sea of sick.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

It's pathetic - someone says something offensive/racist sexist and bubble people just think_ this is what everyone else really thinks_ - so do an pathetic right to offend march. Grow up. Other people exist. They're not all as your bubble thinks.


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> How does that change anything? It only can if you agree with your main point. What was you point, i think that you could do with reminding.
> 
> I am in the bubble because no one i know is in the clarkson bubble. Listen to yourself. Listen to what you are asking yourself to agree with. Listen to yourself posting it, Then think again.
> 
> In a week you'll be saying that there is no public debate, that the the internet has fractured it. Oh, you did already didn't you?


main point? what, again?  that Clarkson is more influential than LP and the rest of the commentariat.  seems entirely uncontroversial to me, so I'm mildly surprised by the vehemence by which I've been told he has no influence whatsoever (but only mildly because this is, after all, u75 ).







but then I didn't factor in just how far urban75 debates are from the lives of most people.


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Who gets most likes. In which case, the meaningless nature of such an endaevour means your likes drown yourself in a sea of sick.


what is this business of likes you keep going on about?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> main point? what, again? that Clarkson is more influential than LP and the rest of the commentariat. seems entirely uncontroversial to me, so I'm mildly surprised by the vehemence by which I've been told he has no influence whatsoever (but only mildly because this is, after all, u75 ).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When was the main point? It never was. Why did you just invent? When were you told that Clarkson has "has no influence whatsoever"? What are you openly lying?


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's pathetic - someone says something offensive/racist sexist and bubble people just think_ this is what everyone else really thinks_ - so do an pathetic right to offend march. Grow up. Other people exist. They're not all as your bubble thinks.


post after post of pointless froth and you're telling me to grow up 

who do you think has influence in our society?  why so reluctant to answer a simple question?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> what is this business of likes you keep going on about?


 


It was part of something that you posted that you thought for some reason helped support your position. *Of course* a load of PR for a BBC program that is irrelevant to the debate is what we should all have posted. Why on earth not?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> post after post of pointless froth and you're telling me to grow up
> 
> who do you think has influence in our society? why so reluctant to answer a simple question?


 
What's that got to do with anything?


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

oh right., I thought you meant that greebo had liked one of my posts and was getting puzzled. now that I understand, your point is, of course, both pertinent and compelling.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> oh right., I thought you meant that greebo had liked one of my posts and was getting puzzled. now that I understand, your point is, of course, both pertinent and compelling.


 
Rather than the contrarian (the civil lib contrarian is a fav, _now i'm not sure_ ) falling down and just wasting everyones time?


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What's that got to do with anything?


what has "who has influence in public debate" got to do with anything? hmm, dunno


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> what has "who has influence in public debate" got to do with anything? hmm, dunno


 
What's it go to do with what we were talking about bubble boy? Whence comes this incessant need to force a recognition that your own clarkson influenced bubble is true of all others? Everything - surely? Or what are you talking about?


----------



## benedict (Aug 10, 2013)




----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

it's not me with an _ incessant need_ that's for sure. 

I think it's pretty clear what I've been saying. 

you appear to want to froth (as if what I said somehow mattered) but I have no real idea what you're saying.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> Indeed, he's part of the populist appeal that sustains them.
> 
> Top gear is his main outlet.
> Look
> ...



The Top Gear phenomenon is fucking mind boggling. Loved across the world. Its mental.
I guess his influence via the medium of Top Gear is adding to some kind of Jungian collective unconscious - adding pro-car and whatever his general mindset is. But agree with Spanky, its different to adding or steering a debate, its more generally seeping his mindset into mass culture.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 10, 2013)

Whats wrong with kelly clarkson?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> it's not me with an _ incessant need_ that's for sure.
> 
> I think it's pretty clear what I've been saying.
> 
> you appear to want to froth (as if what I said somehow mattered) but I have no real idea what you're saying.


 
You're just replying in a series of thought through posts _to nothing_. Then suddenly it stops. You have no idea.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 10, 2013)

btw can anyone remember a hugely popular petition that swept the Internet a couple of years back...it was car related somehow?


----------



## discokermit (Aug 10, 2013)

moops!


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

ska invita said:


> The Top Gear phenomenon is fucking mind boggling. Loved across the world. Its mental.
> I guess his influence via the medium of Top Gear is adding to some kind of Jungian collective unconscious - adding pro-car and whatever his general mindset is. But agree with Spanky, its different to adding or steering a debate, its more generally seeping his mindset into mass culture.


his general mindset is pretty disgusting, exemplified by the _execute strikers_ comment. and his Chipping Norton credentials. 

his influence comes, I contend, because he has both the intent and the platform to inject that mindset into mass debate. His true fanbase lap it up, he speaks for them, and they value him adding his voice so publically. He legitimises and hardens opinions and nudges waverers in his direction.   

I can't think of anyone left of center with a similar capability to influence.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

A game changer to be sure.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

I've given you that gap so that you can now talk about whether he has any influence or what all all that stuff you said meant


----------



## ska invita (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> his general mindset is pretty disgusting, exemplified by the _execute strikers_ comment. and his Chipping Norton credentials.
> 
> his influence comes, I contend, because he has both the intent and the platform to inject that mindset into mass debate. His true fanbase lap it up, he speaks for them, and they value him adding his voice so publically. He legitimises and hardens opinions and nudges waverers in his direction.
> 
> I can't think of anyone left of center with a similar capability to influence.


his column in the sun doesnt equate to all the millions of top gear fans. but yeah the sun is the most popular paper, 7million readers a day, and a column in that counts for more than equivalent columnists in the guardian or new statesman or on blogs etc. thats just maths.


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

@ ba  I'm more interested in what other people think tbh. I'll leave it here and go to bed, see if anyone else wants to pick up on it.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> I'm more interested in what other people think tbh.


whats wrong with my opinion 
snubbed!


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> I'm more interested in what other people think tbh. I'll leave it here and go to bed, see if anyone else wants to pick up on it.





ska invita said:


> his column in the sun doesnt equate to all the millions of top gear fans. but yeah the sun is the most popular paper, 7million readers a day, and a column in that counts for more than equivalent columnists in the guardian or new statesman or on blogs etc. thats just maths.


I don't read his sun column, or watch tg come to that, but yes his reach is enormous. 

Funny that on a pro working class board like this a star sun columnist isn't deconstructed in the way someone who writes for the ns is. 

g'night


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## newbie (Aug 10, 2013)

sorry, not at all snubbed, I edited the post you quoted when i realised we'd crossposted.


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## free spirit (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I managed it. No one i know beyond my dad knows who he is. What sort of debate is this?


 
so out of everyone you know, the only person who knows who Jeremy Clarkson is is your dad?

If that's not bollocks, then newbie's right, you must move in some pretty out of touch circles.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 10, 2013)

The book shop bubble.


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## emanymton (Aug 10, 2013)

This thread seems to have got vaguely on topic, so i will stick this here. 


http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2013/aug/09/molly-crabapple-status-update

Sorry  I don't get any of the 'option buttons' on my phone so can't create a link.


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## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

free spirit said:


> so out of everyone you know, the only person who knows who Jeremy Clarkson is is your dad?
> 
> If that's not bollocks, then newbie's right, you must move in some pretty out of touch circles.


He's the only person I know that Clarkson could possibly be part of a some ongoing public debate with. Get out of your bubble.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 10, 2013)

emanymton said:


> This thread seems to have got vaguely on topic, so i will stick this here.
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2013/aug/09/molly-crabapple-status-update
> ...


 
it is a link


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## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> The book shop bubble.


This post highlights exactly why you are such a valuable poster.


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## emanymton (Aug 10, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> it is a link


It automatically become one, which i wasn't expecting. But I really meant turning a word into a link rater than posting the full thing which was what I wanted to do.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

I can't decide what I think about Crabapple. She seems sincere but a little bit naive, politically, however skilled she might be at attracting attention and the monetizing thing. Her political 'analysis' seems to consist in aphorisms, sloganeering and the odd bombshell "did you know" factoid...and her writing contains too many (highly convenient) pen portraits of characters who just happen to come out with the apposite killer quote at just the right symbolic juncture...which puts me too much in mind of Hari and Penny. (Although, maybe people have started speaking in utterances which do indeed transfer seemlessly as Hashtags. That said, I think her stuff maintains a semblance of balance and objectivity which those other two just don't have access to. My big issue with Crabapple, which it's impossible to get around, is the drawings; they're just all a bit shit.

She says on their she doing something inspired by Thompson and Steadman but neither her nor Taibi in in the same league. Fair play to her, steadman's a valid role-model, but it's all too derivative...even her rhetoric is a throwback to a kinda sixties counter-cultural knowing irony. I'm not sure what it is she brings which is original or unique, even what she would bring if she could draw. I'm giving her 3.5 out of 10, with the rider that I think she's potentially a 4.2. (It's good to quantify stuff....qualitative judgements have had their day)


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

Also...fair play to her awareness wise for raising 'starting sentence with "so"'. Every cunt does that these days. 
So fuck? So what?...these are the only valid uses of 'so' at the start of a sentence...except maybe 'so long', 'so long suckers' or 'so much to do, so little..."
I heard something like this the other day.
"So tell me about your childhood"
"So I was born in..." Although it sounded a bit like "so, I was born in..." 
So what's the deal with this?


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## frogwoman (Aug 10, 2013)

i think most people know who clarkson is, i don't reckon anyone necessarily gives his opinion any merit though.


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## JimW (Aug 10, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Also...fair play to her awareness wise for raising 'starting sentence with "so"'. Every cunt does that these days.
> So fuck? So what?...these are the only valid uses of 'so' at the start of a sentence...except maybe 'so long', 'so long suckers' or 'so much to do, so little..."
> I heard something like this the other day.
> "So tell me about your childhood"
> ...


 
Seamus Heaney translates the "hwaet" at the start of Beowulf as "so" and has a long bit in his intro on why he does it - long been a verbal marker for "listen up, i'm going to tell you something" in various versions of colloquial English, basically IIRC his point.
So there.


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## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2013)

Clarkson's relationship to influence is pretty much the same as Dell Boy falling through the bar is to comedy.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

JimW said:


> Seamus Heaney translates the "hwaet" at the start of Beowulf as "so" and has a long bit in his intro on why he does it - long been a verbal marker for "listen up, i'm going to tell you something" in various versions of colloquial English, basically IIRC his point.
> So there.



Fair enough, but in that case the 'so' inaugurates the great classic of Anglo Saxon literature which probably merits a 'listen'. Does the 'so' in 'So I'm going to the shops now.'?


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## JimW (Aug 10, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Fair enough, but in that case the 'so' inaugurates the great classic of Anglo Saxon literature which probably merits a 'listen'. Does the 'so' in 'So I'm going to the shops now.'?


 
Not sure really, just happened to have read that nugget just the other day and couldn't resist using it 
Maybe that "so I'm going..." works like you have an ongoing monologue in your head about what you're about so when you say it it's like a marker of continuity. Off the top of my head.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Clarkson's relationship to influence is pretty much the same as Dell Boy falling through the bar is to comedy.



Wasn't that voted top sit-com moment of the century or something. That's quite a claim to make about Clarkson. I don't think he's a influence, as such, because 'influence' would seem more naturally attached to some action or change. Clarkson's only a force of reaction. He confirms prejudices and validates petty annoyances as legitimate. He'd like to go back to fifties as long as he cold take his cars and gadgets and motorways.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

JimW said:


> Not sure really, just happened to have read that nugget just the other day and couldn't resist using it
> Maybe that "so I'm going..." works like you have an ongoing monologue in your head about what you're about so when you say it it's like a marker of continuity. Off the top of my head.



That's what I thought. My kids seem to have that. They talk to themselves when they're doing stuff. My lad utters 'milk' when he's opening the fridge door while making a cup of tea, for instance. It really fucks me off...not sure why, though.


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## ska invita (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He's the only person I know that Clarkson could possibly be part of a some ongoing public debate with. Get out of your bubble.


a lot of people i know aren't really engaged in any debate, or more accurately are not really thinking critically in any thorough, tested way. The debate is kind of one-way. Thats why the shallow waves of mass culture (including Top Gear) do have a very general effect, and why its relatively easy to stoke up hate and blame, and create right-wing cultural norms. Right-wing shock-jock type columnists, of which Jeremy Clarkson is a UK type, definitely do have influence, and in the UK just as in the US often have a huge audience. Agree with Newbie, im surprised this is any anyway controversial. There are 7 million sun readers, and i think he writes in other murdoch papers from time to time. If you have that massive audience of course you have influence. Uncontroversial.



emanymton said:


> This thread seems to have got vaguely on topic, so i will stick this here.
> http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2013/aug/09/molly-crabapple-status-update


annoying as that is at least she's been honest and isnt pretending to be anything other than a middle-class, privileged, champagne-in-the-fridge and absynthe-at-the-bar, pseudo-radical, <readily owning up to all those counts.


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## ska invita (Aug 10, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Clarkson's only a force of reaction. He confirms prejudices and validates petty annoyances as legitimate. .


 reactionary influence is still influence


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## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2013)

Ronnie Rubashov said:


> Wasn't that voted top sit-com moment of the century or something. That's quite a claim to make about Clarkson. I don't think he's a influence, as such, because 'influence' would seem more naturally attached to some action or change. Clarkson's only a force of reaction. He confirms prejudices and validates petty annoyances as legitimate. He'd like to go back to fifties as long as he cold take his cars and gadgets and motorways.


 
Was Dell Boy falling through the bar a major influence on comedy?


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## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

ska invita said:


> a lot of people i know aren't really engaged in any debate, or more accurately are not really thinking critically in any thorough, tested way. The debate is kind of one-way. Thats why the shallow waves of mass culture (including Top Gear) do have a very general effect, and why its relatively easy to stoke up hate and blame, and create right-wing cultural norms. Right-wing shock-jock type columnists, of which Jeremy Clarkson is a UK type, definitely do have influence, and in the UK just as in the US often have a huge audience. Agree with Newbie, im surprised this is any anyway controversial. There are 7 million sun readers, and i think he writes in other murdoch papers from time to time. If you have that massive audience of course you have influence. Uncontroversial.
> 
> 
> annoying as that is at least she's been honest and isnt pretending to be anything other than a middle-class, privileged, champagne-in-the-fridge and absynthe-at-the-bar, pseudo-radical, <readily owning up to all those counts.


 
That's right, everyone else is a mug  - just an empty vessel asnd they simply get filled up by stuff beamed directly into their brain. How did you break out of this vicious cycle? That's a question that needs an answer btw.

What's newbie saying (the latest version anyway) and what am i saying? What's the difference?


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## andysays (Aug 10, 2013)

ska invita said:


> a lot of people i know aren't really engaged in any debate, or more accurately are not really thinking critically in any thorough, tested way. The debate is kind of one-way. Thats why the shallow waves of mass culture (including Top Gear) do have a very general effect, and why its relatively easy to stoke up hate and blame, and create right-wing cultural norms. Right-wing shock-jock type columnists, of which Jeremy Clarkson is a UK type, definitely do have influence, and in the UK just as in the US often have a huge audience. Agree with Newbie, im surprised this is any anyway controversial. There are 7 million sun readers, and i think he writes in other murdoch papers from time to time. If you have that massive audience of course you have influence. Uncontroversial...


 
Yep, and the influence is mostly that of confirming prejudices which already exist, or are being stoked up in other, more deliberate ways, but Clarkson and his ilk, at the very least, make it more difficult for alternate points of view to get heard above the general media babble, or get taken seriously when they are heard.


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## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

Amazing - in 2013 battle is to say the right things in the media, to get the right message into dummys heads by changing the media message. One way transmission stuff that totally ignores reception and interpretation and was crude 50 years ago. I thought you were andy wilson? Are you not?


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## JimW (Aug 10, 2013)

Plus most of the evidence we have of Clarkson having an impact is people complaining in their thousands when he says something particularly aresholey. Not exactly proof he's getting swallowed whole.


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## andysays (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's right, everyone else is a mug - just an empty vessel asnd they simply get filled up by stuff beamed directly into their brain. How did you break out of this vicious cycle? That's a question that needs an answer btw...


 
No one is saying that "everyone else is a mug", that's your exaggerated interpretation.

And all of us, to some extent or other, are influenced by exposure to this shit, no one, unless you'd like to argue otherwise, has completely broken out of that influence.


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## LiamO (Aug 10, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Was Dell Boy falling through the bar a major influence on comedy?


Indubitably. As was the candlearbra scene, which I saw again last night.


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## andysays (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing - in 2013 battle is to say the right things in the media, to get the right message into dummys heads by changing the media message. One way transmission stuff that totally ignores reception and interpretation and was crude 50 years ago. I thought you were andy wilson? Are you not?


 
No, no I'm not.

Who is Andy Wilson (or rather which of the many Andy Wilsons do you mean)?


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## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

andysays said:


> No one is saying that "everyone else is a mug", that's your exaggerated interpretation.
> 
> And all of us, to some extent or other, are influenced by exposure to this shit, no one, unless you'd like to argue otherwise, has completely broken k.out of that influence.


 
Ska is and you're saying the same thing behind his back. No sense of the collective construction of social reality beyond one way traffic - 'it' goes into passive victims -who gobble it up  whilst others tut and _say look at them reading the paper and watching x-factor_.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2013)

Nice one said:


> i'm saying i watch top gear even though i don't drive. I'm saying i'd never read anything by laurie penny until you starting banging on about her on christmas day 2010...


 
Surely that merely marks you as someone who likes watching cod-amiable buffoons on telly, while living in an anrcho-lifestylist bubble? 



> and every day since, _like it mattered._ Why does she matter to you? What does clarkson _represent?_


 
Clarkson represents a boss-class presentation of appeal to working class males.  Of course, as a viewer of Top gear, you'll be aware that much of his *studio* audience are Jaspers and Jemimas. 
Why does Laurie Penny "matter"? Because she and those like her present "top-down" commentary on situations they don't understand and/or haven't experienced except in a glancing "couple of years of student squalor" way.  They present "solutions" to social problems that are not solutions, and they (however much they may call themselves "left wing" or even "anarchist") present a politics that is no different from what currently exists, except in a few ameliorative details.
You may not care about people speaking for you and at you, but not *to* you.  Some of us do.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

ska invita said:


> reactionary influence is still influence



Yeah, like zero's a number, the empty set's a set and a blank canvass is a 'depiction' of absence. Which all kinda depends on definitions, conventions and semantics. All might be more idiomatically rendered as 'fuck all'.


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## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2013)

andysays said:


> No, no I'm not.
> 
> Who is Andy Wilson (or rather which of the many Andy Wilsons do you mean)?


 
Well, can you expand on what you said because it sure as hell looks like you were saying that you agree with ska when you said yeah, i agree and that no one else is thinking critically and that a large reason why is because they are so dumb they are programmed by media - either to confirm old prejudices or produce new ones (and it's telling that thought, reflection can only be seen as being based on prejudices  - as well as being externally prompted and maintained in this mode of thought).

Wilson ex of swp and now of AMM.


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## Ronnie Rubashov (Aug 10, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Was Dell Boy falling through the bar a major influence on comedy?



Yeah. I imagine so.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2013)

newbie said:


> are you in debate with any of the commenatriat? Do they read you as you read them?
> 
> yet there is, self evidently, all sorts of debate going on. People talk to each other and they're far, far more likely to be responding to something Clarkson said on TG than to something LP says in the NS or a broadsheet. You haven't noticed?


 
Mmm, I'd argue that part of the reason that Clarkson gets responses to his "debate" is because he reflects back to his audience what he perceives to be/what his writers perceive to be their own views to a much greater degree than _La Pennionara_ does/wishes to. She's about representing *her* views to stimulate her audience, not act as an echo chamber for them.  Of course, their motivations are similar (earning a living, and garnering influence), but apart from that they're a poor comparison overall.


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## andysays (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Ska is and you're saying the same thing behind his back. No sense of the collective construction of social reality beyond one way traffic - 'it' goes into passive victims -who gobble it up whilst others tut and _say look at them reading the paper and watching x-factor_.


 


butchersapron said:


> Well, can you expand on what you said because it sure as hell looks like you were saying that you agree with ska when you said yeah, i agree and that no one else is thinking critically and that a large reason why is because they are so dumb they are programmed by media - either to confirm old prejudices or produce new ones (and it's telling that thought, reflection can only be seen as being based on prejudices - as well as being externally prompted and maintained in this mode of thought).
> 
> Wilson ex of swp and now of AMM.


 
Again, you're creating bollocks strawman versions of what I and others are saying, the easier to knock them down.

Of course we have to recognise the collective construction of social reality - nothing I've said has contradicted that - I'm simply suggesting that for you or I or anyone else to contribute to that construction is more difficult/less effective than it is for Clarkson (but neither impossible or not worth attempting) because


He has a massive reach, both on TV and through other media
He is pushing an establishment/pro-capitalist/anti w/c agenda which is part of the dominant ideology, and therefore has a huge advantage. Compared to him, you or I will tend to be seen as an eccentric lone voice.
By prejudices, BTW, I mean ideas which are ill thought out and generally accepted because they are a part of the dominant ideology, not necessarily prejudices against particular groups of people, though the two often overlap. I haven't suggested that those prejudices can't be overcome, I think they can, and critical discussion and an alternative collective re-construction of social reality is a hugely important part of that.

The thing you posted yesterday about Illuminati etc is a good example of how such things might be challenged, so I'm certainly not saying it's impossible, but simply asserting that Clarkson etc don't have a significant influence, and refusing to explore how that influence works is helping no one.

And not that it matters, but I'm not that or any other Andy Wilson, and if you thought that I had *ever* been a member of the SWP, then either you've *totally* misread some or all of what I've written, or I've somehow managed to give a completely false view of my history and opinions...


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Indubitably. As was the candlearbra scene, which I saw again last night.


 
Such a major influence that Buster Keaton's estate sued for breach of copyright in the first case, and Laurel & Hardy's estates in the second.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 10, 2013)




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## discokermit (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I thought you were andy wilson? Are you not?


no. would've mentioned zappa by now.


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## bamalama (Aug 10, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Such a major influence that Buster Keaton's estate sued for breach of copyright in the first case, and Laurel & Hardy's estates in the second.


I did not know that


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## andysays (Aug 10, 2013)

discokermit said:


> no. would've mentioned zappa by now.


 


I'd never heard of Wilson, but I've now looked him up, and as he's a mate of Ben Watson, who I am vaguely familiar with, you're probably right (or Derek Bailey, of course...)


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2013)

bamalama said:


> I did not know that


 
It's not true! 

My point is, if you watch Keaton and Laurel & Hardy (or Chaplin, or Harold Lloyd) you'll see exactly the same pratfalls (Keaton through a saloon bar, Laurel & Hardy unbolting a chandelier), 70-odd years before they were done on "Only Fools and Horses".


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## bamalama (Aug 10, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not true!
> 
> My point is, if you watch Keaton and Laurel & Hardy (or Chaplin, or Harold Lloyd) you'll see exactly the same pratfalls (Keaton through a saloon bar, Laurel & Hardy unbolting a chandelier), 70-odd years before they were done on "Only Fools and Horses".


Don't do that vp,ye bastard


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## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Indubitably. As was the candlearbra scene, which I saw again last night.


It wasn't a major influence though ,it was like clarkson just very very popular.


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## emanymton (Aug 10, 2013)

andysays said:


> Again, you're creating bollocks strawman versions of what I and others are saying, the easier to knock them down.
> 
> Of course we have to recognise the collective construction of social reality - nothing I've said has contradicted that - I'm simply suggesting that for you or I or anyone else to contribute to that construction is more difficult/less effective than it is for Clarkson (but neither impossible or not worth attempting) because
> 
> ...


But has Clarkson ever changed someone's views on a subject? Has anyone started out believing A and had their view changed to B by him? Not many I suspect.


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## belboid (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Wilson ex of swp and now of AMM.


naah, he is registered, quite ingeniously, as 'Andy Wilson'


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## belboid (Aug 10, 2013)

emanymton said:


> But has Clarkson ever changed someone's views on a subject? Has anyone started out believing A and had their view changed to B by him? Not many I suspect.


surely the point of Clarksons 'influence' is not that he changes opinions, but he reinforces them, and he makes all that guff about women drivers etc 'acceptable discourse.'  It's not as if he is likely to have had a clause inserted into the draft bill on suburban planning regulations (tho who knows what goes on in those cosy Chippy Chats)


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## andysays (Aug 10, 2013)

emanymton said:


> But has Clarkson ever changed someone's views on a subject? Has anyone started out believing A and had their view changed to B by him? Not many I suspect.


 
I don't know the answer to that question, but you seem to be using an overly narrow meaning to the idea of influence. I would suggest that all his shit, combined with all sorts of other factors, add up to an influence which is supportive of the status quo.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 10, 2013)

The thing about Clarkie having influence - It's not so much to do with his writing for the Sun, loads of people read the Sun but don't believe half the stuff that's in it. It's not to do with his media presence at all, it's about the fact that he's good mates with Cameron and all those Chipping Norton clowns. And they're who are running the country - Being a member of that set gives him influence by definition surely?


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## free spirit (Aug 11, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He's the only person I know that Clarkson could possibly be part of a some ongoing public debate with. Get out of your bubble.


spot the difference.



butchersapron said:


> I managed it. No one i know beyond my dad knows who he is. What sort of debate is this?


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## emanymton (Aug 11, 2013)

belboid said:


> surely the point of Clarksons 'influence' is not that he changes opinions, but he reinforces them, and he makes all that guff about women drivers etc 'acceptable discourse.'  It's not as if he is likely to have had a clause inserted into the draft bill on suburban planning regulations (tho who knows what goes on in those cosy Chippy Chats)


Well yes one on theas issues here is no one has clearly defined what is meant by influence, and I am not going to even try. 

As you say he reinforces existing ideas, in the same way that people reading newspapers tend to simply reinforce what they already belive. Somebody can happly agree with every word of one sun article, if it supports what they already think. The turn the page and disagree with every word of another which contradicts what they think. This may be influence but it is quite week. 

There would be no way to guess this from my last post, but it was really more of a reaction to the empty vessel nonsense that was creeping in, rather than to the whole influence question. 

As a slight aside, I tend to feel that the real power of the media rests not so much on how they report the news, but in the ability to decide what counts as news at all.


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## newbie (Aug 11, 2013)

I'd suggest influence rests in the opportunity to have a voice and be listened to because what's said matters. 

Clarkson matters both because he's central to the Chipping Norton set (& it's worth reminding just what that was/is) and because he has clear popularity with his public. He can talk directly to a demonstrably appreciative audience and is likely to be listened to. He can also upset him opponents quite successfully, which is important because it demonstrates effectiveness. None of the others, except perhaps Cameron, can do that.

Yet until the phone hacking scandal he appeared, at least to me, simply a rather maverick TV personality.  His connection to, and voice within, elite power puts him in a different light.

Maybe what he says to the public often does simply reinforce existing opinions (is that not the case with any commentator?) but his abrasive, populist style and outspokenness can occasionally generate controversy and urge people to take sides- are you the sort of robust indenpendent thinker that makes Britain great, or one of the sad cases who whimper their complaints to the BBC? He wouldn't have the ability to polarise if he wasn't being listened to.


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## ska invita (Aug 11, 2013)

Another way of asking this is Who are the 10 most influential commentators.

According to this http://www.editorialintelligence.com/ei-news/article.php?d=080413 its this lot below (in 2008)
Cant see how they arrive at the conclusion, though it mentions a poll, but I get the feeling its not a poll of the public, but of other opinion formers, politicians, think tank wonks and so on. Haha imagine being influenced by Polly Toynbee 

in 2008 it was these (1-10), with Polly T in first place:
Polly Toynbee – The Guardian
Trevor Kavanagh – The Sun
Irwin Steltzer – The Sunday Times
Nick Robinson –BBC blog ‘Nick Robinson’s Newslog’
Anatole Kaletsky – The Times
Simon Jenkins – The Guardian / Sunday Times
= Robert Peston – BBC blog ‘Peston’s Picks’
= Jeff Randall – Daily Telegraph
Richard Littlejohn – The Daily Mail
George Monbiot – The Guardian
= Martin Wolf – The Financial Times
= Matthew d’Ancona – The Sunday Telegraph

Without seeing how they arrived at this list I think it needs a big pinch of salt 

Seems that these Editorial Intelligence people produced a paper called 'So how much power do the commentators really wield?'
summarised here http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/apr/27/politicalcolumnists.guardiancolumnists


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## ska invita (Aug 11, 2013)

emanymton said:


> But has Clarkson ever changed someone's views on a subject? Has anyone started out believing A and had their view changed to B by him? Not many I suspect.


All opinions are formed through a complex ongoing process. Keeping up a status quo is equal to changing opinions in my book.


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## weepiper (Aug 11, 2013)

Has anyone posted this excellent article on useless commentariat yet?

http://www.katebelgrave.com/2013/08...-and-the-useless-self-appointed-commentariat/


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 38899


 
I really like that ink, and you have great handwriting


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## The Pale King (Aug 12, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not true!
> 
> My point is, if you watch Keaton and Laurel & Hardy (or Chaplin, or Harold Lloyd) you'll see exactly the same pratfalls (Keaton through a saloon bar, Laurel & Hardy unbolting a chandelier), 70-odd years before they were done on "Only Fools and Horses".


 
Harold Lloyd was brilliant. Doesn't get enough credit if you ask me.


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## Delroy Booth (Aug 12, 2013)

Hugo Schwyzer has been mentioned on the old thread so might as well dump this here.

http://twitchy.com/2013/08/10/bad-b...-sex-and-charm-and-whiteness-to-scam-you-all/


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## Belushi (Aug 12, 2013)

That's a proper meltdown.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Harold Lloyd was brilliant. Doesn't get enough credit if you ask me.


 
Agreed. Keaton and Chaplin get loads of kudos, but Lloyd gets forgotten compared to them, even though he not only came up with all his own physical comedy, but invented "stunts" for other comics too.
There was a "kings of comedy" prog a few years ago that had footage of one of his contemporaries saying that most of them used to watch Lloyd filming his stunt scenes with their hands over their eyes, because a lot of his stunts, even his pratfalls, were so borderline in terms of being possibly harmful or fatal.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Aug 12, 2013)

A modest wordsmith writes...


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  8m
> I may have invented the word 'spleencockery' to describe the banal, stage-managed, shouty spite infesting the press - http://bit.ly/17iKWPD


----------



## Santino (Aug 12, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Agreed. Keaton and Chaplin get loads of kudos, but Lloyd gets forgotten compared to them, even though he not only came up with all his own physical comedy, but invented "stunts" for other comics too.
> There was a "kings of comedy" prog a few years ago that had footage of one of his contemporaries saying that most of them used to watch Lloyd filming his stunt scenes with their hands over their eyes, because a lot of his stunts, even his pratfalls, were so borderline in terms of being possibly harmful or fatal.


He also only had one hand.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2013)

Santino said:


> He also only had one hand.


 
Not quite, he lost his thumb and a finger and a half in an explosion on set, hence the white glove.  Mad sod!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

Hah. spleencockery isn't nearly as good as the words I've seen invented on here.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Hugo Schwyzer has been mentioned on the old thread so might as well dump this here.
> 
> http://twitchy.com/2013/08/10/bad-b...-sex-and-charm-and-whiteness-to-scam-you-all/


 
My word. That's some manic phase he's having.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 12, 2013)

proper meltdown innit.  still, it's nice that he outed himself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2013)

someone c+p for me, can't load that without crashing the lappy


----------



## love detective (Aug 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> A modest wordsmith writes...


 




			
				lauriepenny said:
			
		

> ...an understanding that we may pretend to hate each other on screen, but we’re all friends really, when the cameras are off. We’re part of the same media elite, we run in the same circles and we’re playing the same game
> 
> Having played that game for four years, I believe the losers are all the viewers, all the listeners and all the readers who have to put up with talking heads howling emptily at each other over a void of banal chatter and with being told that this constitutes constructive public discourse and fair representation of a range of opinions.


 
remarkably truthful and honest point she makes there though (even if the whole article is purely an outlet for her to talk about how often she is on the telly)

edit: and putting aside the fact it's pretty much plaigrised from a critique of her on this very forum


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> proper meltdown innit. still, it's nice that he outed himself.


 
One less to go looking for.

Some of the comments are a bit wtf though - feminism being built on fraud being one of them.


----------



## newbie (Aug 12, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> someone c+p for me, can't load that without crashing the lappy


same


----------



## J Ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Has anyone seen this http://socialistunity.com/stephen-f...ved-from-russia-over-gay-rights-is-hypocrisy/ ? I find the sudden interest in LGBT rights in Russia from Western governments nauseatingly hypocritical but this piece is just disgusting apologism which IMO veers very close to actual homophobia.

Also wtf does this mean



> Furthermore, in 2008 Fry was one of the high profile Jewish signatories to an open letter protesting the celebration of Israel’s 60th anniversary, and he is a supporter of British Jews for Justice for Palestinians, which supports and campaigns for Palestinian human rights.


 
Since Fry is one of the good Jews (implicit here is the idea that Jews who do not talk about Israel are bad) we didn't expect him to do anything so imperialist as speak out against homophobic violence on a mass scale which the Russian government colludes in?! Just disgusting.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> A modest wordsmith writes...


 


> In most other circumstances, however, far more good would be done if experts, opinionators and maybe even a few ordinary people were allowed to talk


 
sums up everything, this is how she wants politics to be, her, people like her, and an ordinary every now and then for the cameras


----------



## love detective (Aug 12, 2013)

_opinionators_

jesus fuck!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2013)

> "...and I’m often lucky enough to be asked to speak on issues.."


 
Why? Because you are especially informed? Because you have a unique angle to bring to the debate? Or because of the contacts you've made and because the commissioning editors come from the same narrow class/social network as you and have a limited contact book. Which is which is why ordinaries get shut out. Because of you. Because of how you operate and because of what you do.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Has anyone seen this http://socialistunity.com/stephen-f...ved-from-russia-over-gay-rights-is-hypocrisy/ ? I find the sudden interest in LGBT rights in Russia from Western governments nauseatingly hypocritical but this piece is just disgusting apologism which IMO veers very close to actual homophobia.
> 
> Also wtf does this mean
> 
> ...


 
This is bad bad bad. What's driving this idiocy?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 12, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Has anyone seen this http://socialistunity.com/stephen-f...ved-from-russia-over-gay-rights-is-hypocrisy/ ? I find the sudden interest in LGBT rights in Russia from Western governments nauseatingly hypocritical but this piece is just disgusting apologism which IMO veers very close to actual homophobia.
> 
> Also wtf does this mean
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like they expected him to take a knee jerk "anti-imperialist" position because he opposes the Israeli state.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 12, 2013)

> Firstly, the recent law passed by the Russian Duma is hardly a reason to compare contemporary Russia to Nazi Germany, as Fry does in his letter. The ludicrous nature of such a comparison only serves to trivialise fascism and the huge suffering endured by the Russian and Soviet people in the Second World War, during which 25-30 million died before the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis.


 
What does he think the second world war started in 1933? I'm not a fan of misplaced nazi comparisons but sometimes activities by governments do display some similarities, it's not "trivialising it" to point this out especially because the sort of laws which would later be used by the Nazis were used in other non-fascist regimes

also, some of the Nazi era prohibitions against homosexuality were not taken off the books until years later


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 12, 2013)

> Homosexuality was decriminalised in Russia in 1993 and though there are still cultural issues with regard to prejudice against gays in the country, the idea that liberals and activists in Britain have the requisite moral authority to preach to the Russian government over the issue is the product of arrogance.


 
ugh, "anti-imperialist" (as if russia isn't imperialist itself) apologism at its worst



> Whether we like to admit it or not, homosexuality and sexual promiscuity are still viewed as two sides of the same coin in some societies, feeding a misplaced understanding of homosexuality as solely a lifestyle choice motivated by hedonism. It is seen as a corrupting and corrosive influence on social cohesion as a consequence. There is of course nothing wrong with homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. The freedom to choose any lifestyle a person so wishes, as long as it does not impinge on the rights of others, is rightly deemed sacrosanct in a healthy society.


 
fucking hell, that's pretty naked


----------



## weepiper (Aug 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why? Because you are especially informed? Because you have a unique angle to bring to the debate? Or because of the contacts you've made and because the commissioning editors come from the same narrow class/social network as you and have a limited contact book. Which is which is why ordinaries get shut out. Because of you. Because of how you operate and because of what you do.


 
'lucky'.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 14, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/14/solidarityisforwhitewomen-hashtag-feminism

An article on Hugo Schwyzer's difficulties from the perspective of a Black Feminist. I'm on her side, but I think it's a poor article, keeping as it does to the modern convention of not doing politics, but talking about it at a remove - 'launching' twitter hashtags and talking about the 'therapeutic' process of sharing stories and ending, you guessed it, with a call for 'an honest conversation'. But I think it does at least point out the superficial nature of what's put out by a lot of people who call themselves feminists and get a column, and it identifies some of the faultlines that run through the present digital feminist (digifeminist?) and intersectionalist milieu.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 14, 2013)

I met someone last night who went to Palestine for two months while doing his degree lol. He described himself as a "reformist labour liberal". He said that he stayed in Israel for a few days but was boycotting Israeli goods while there (eh?? hows that work then). I thought about getting in a debate with him but then thought "no Rach, no, you're going to see a film in a few minutes"


----------



## bamalama (Aug 14, 2013)

> was boycotting Israeli goods while there.


 
Personally i've no problem with people boycotting israeli goods,but that seems like a mammoth task right there


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 14, 2013)

bamalama said:


> Personally i've no problem with people boycotting israeli goods,but that seems like a mammoth task right there


 
Nor do I (although I don't like the groups involved in the campaign and I don't boycott them myself, I don't think boycotts work but I don't have a problem with people doing it).

It just seems a bit of an impossible task to go to Israel and boycott Israel at the same time, some mental gymnastics probably involved as well


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think boycotts work


of course they work, look what happened to captain boycott. they may not ALL work, but that's a different thing.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> of course they work, look what happened to captain boycott. they may not ALL work, but that's a different thing.


 
have to be in conjunction with other things tho surely? like MASS ACTION OF THE WORKING CLASS etc


----------



## bamalama (Aug 14, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> have to be in conjunction with other things tho surely? like MASS ACTION OF THE WORKING CLASS etc


In principle probably,and desirable, in practice i don't think so.There's pickmans example of the original boycott,but i think the most obvious example is south africa,and there's a few others


----------



## J Ed (Aug 14, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/14/solidarityisforwhitewomen-hashtag-feminism
> 
> An article on Hugo Schwyzer's difficulties from the perspective of a Black Feminist. I'm on her side, but I think it's a poor article, keeping as it does to the modern convention of not doing politics, but talking about it at a remove - 'launching' twitter hashtags and talking about the 'therapeutic' process of sharing stories and ending, you guessed it, with a call for 'an honest conversation'. But I think it does at least point out the superficial nature of what's put out by a lot of people who call themselves feminists and get a column, and it identifies some of the faultlines that run through the present digital feminist (digifeminist?) and intersectionalist milieu.


 

This link is interesting http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/why-did-controversial-feminist-hugo-schwyzer-have-a-twitter

Scroll down to the actual breakdown tweets, it explains a lot. Wow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> have to be in conjunction with other things tho surely? like MASS ACTION OF THE WORKING CLASS etc


a boycott is mass action, and some boycotts are even mass action of the working class


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 14, 2013)

J Ed said:


> This link is interesting http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/why-did-controversial-feminist-hugo-schwyzer-have-a-twitter
> 
> Scroll down to the actual breakdown tweets, it explains a lot. Wow.


 
Wow indeed. He seems to have briefly returned to twitter in a similar vein today: https://twitter.com/hugoschwyzer

A pretty wretched tale for all concerned really - particularly those either attacked and abused or taken in by Schwyzer.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 14, 2013)

J Ed said:


> This link is interesting http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/why-did-controversial-feminist-hugo-schwyzer-have-a-twitter
> 
> Scroll down to the actual breakdown tweets, it explains a lot. Wow.


That piece also links to this article on _The Hairpin_:



> ...When he flounced from Twitter, he made sure to alert [Chris] Randle and longtime antagonist Malcolm Harris, crediting them with his decision to leave. It was also what many women wanted, but he didn't acknowledge any of them.
> 
> Randle, a contributing editor at Hazlitt, and Harris, senior editor at The New Inquiry, chatted with me yesterday about how strange it is to be told you've driven someone offline. Full disclosure: we've all socialized IRL, and Malcolm has edited me.
> 
> ...


 
Glass houses, Malky, glass houses.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 15, 2013)

http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/08/occupys-greatest-artist-writes-her-memoirs.html



> I'll talk about working at the Box nightclub and how that was my artistic coming-of-age. A lot of it's about the demimonde as a place of transgression, a place where the classes meet and rub up against each other. I think there’s way more class warfare in a nightclub than anyone gives it credit for.


 
Shots fired! Capitalism trembles!


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 15, 2013)

> I'll talk about working at the Box nightclub and how that was my artistic coming-of-age. A lot of it's about the demimonde as a place of transgression, a place where the classes meet and rub up against each other



not in the nightclubs she goes to i bet


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 15, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/08/occupys-greatest-artist-writes-her-memoirs.html


 

That reminds me of this lass who was at Occupy in London, posh, dreadlocks, talking about shocking people in China Whites by being, like, totally a crusty now.  Then back-pedalling rapidly when we all looked at her. "I only went to China Whites for a laugh because my mates went."  Thus failing the first rule of boasting about your life.  Never back-pedal, never explain.  No-one cares if you're a posh, just don't be either a poser or pretend you're not.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 15, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> not in the nightclubs she goes to i bet


 
well, i've never seen her dry-humping a hod-carrier from Becontree in the dark corner of Secrets in Romford.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 15, 2013)

Middle-class clubbers getting off with working-class clubbers is a lil bit class warfare..


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 15, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> That reminds me of this lass who was at Occupy in London, posh, dreadlocks, talking about shocking people in China Whites by being, like, totally a crusty now. Then back-pedalling rapidly when we all looked at her. "I only went to China Whites for a laugh because my mates went." Thus failing the first rule of boasting about your life. Never back-pedal, never explain. No-one cares if you're a posh, just don't be either a poser or pretend you're not.


 
what's china whites?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 15, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Middle-class clubbers getting off with working-class clubbers is a lil bit class warfare..


 

'bit of rough'.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 15, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> what's china whites?


A song by the Incredible String Band?  Or maybe Johnny Thunders or the Ramones?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2013)

HAHAWETAKESMACK


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2013)

Whichtheydon't.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 15, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> what's china whites?


 
posh london nightclub. http://www.chinawhite.com/information.php

named after a popular variety of smack.  Nu Smack, for cool hip people, not Old Smack for junkies.

never been, so for all i know it's a bastion of solidarity and they only play songs by artists who have also been in the Zapatistas.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 15, 2013)

fucking hell

"*Membership is £650 per annum or £350 per annum if for those under 30. There is a one off joining fee of £100. (All rates include V.A.T. at 20%.) "*

"Likewise, the new Chinawhite guest is not defined by wealth but by a desire to exist outside of the ordinary."

Ladies free on Tuesdays?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 15, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> "the new Chinawhite guest is not defined by wealth but by a desire to exist outside of the ordinary."


 

Oh fuck off posh boys.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 15, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> posh london nightclub. http://www.chinawhite.com/information.php
> 
> named after a popular variety of smack. Nu Smack, for cool hip people, not Old Smack for junkies.


 
that exists?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 15, 2013)

This tells you a lot too



> Membership also entitles the member and accompanying guests to priority entrance, table reservations at the club *and membership rates for Chinawhite at The International Polo.*


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 15, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> that exists?


No. Only in, as the children's comedy has it, your imagina-a-a-ation.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 15, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> posh london nightclub. http://www.chinawhite.com/information.php
> 
> named after a popular variety of smack. Nu Smack, for cool hip people, not Old Smack for junkies.


 
It's named after a brand of tea from China. Hence the Chinese looking interior.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 15, 2013)

Pass me a sick bucket


> “Our thinking behind this club is, what is relevant now? As
> we rise from economic uncertainty, do people really want
> to leave their houses at 10pm and go to clubs that are
> nothing more than celebrity platforms?” comments Jeremy
> ...


I see that despite their phenomenal membership charge they can't afford a fucking proofreader



> The Temple bar with it’s luxurious Missoni cushions


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 15, 2013)

It's a club for cunts that even cunts recognise as such. Quite dated now as well tbh.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 16, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Pass me a sick bucket
> 
> I see that despite their phenomenal membership charge they can't afford a fucking proofreader


 

To be fair I do know exactly what they mean. I _just hate_ when the pub I go to turns into a platform for hotshot celebrities, the other week this dog came in, his owner taught him how to dance. The dog is really full of himself and it's just not on.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

1m *Tintin* ‏@*TintinnyTins*
Why fuckcispeople? It's meant to jar. It's meant to grab attention. And it's meant to educate by being blunt. What? Feels are hurt? Grow up

educate? About what?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

*Sophia * ‏@*sophiaphotos*  11h
Why it is cis white feminism can be all like" fuck men" but get defensive about #*fuckcispeople* ?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 16, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> *Sophia *‏@*sophiaphotos* 11h
> Why it is cis white feminism can be all like" fuck men" but get defensive about #*fuckcispeople* ?


 
Because they only fuck trans men?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

yeah i have no idea what this is about tbh. And i'm sure most of the people tweeting this stuff are cis themselves


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  5m
Not all men hate women, but all men benefit from sexism. Column asking men to stop moaning and stand up for feminism: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism …

No they don't


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 16, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> 1m *Tintin* ‏@*TintinnyTins*
> Why fuckcispeople? It's meant to jar. It's meant to grab attention. And it's meant to educate by being blunt. What? Feels are hurt? Grow up
> 
> educate? About what?


 
"fuckcispeople" is more like a collective moan about the prejudice etc that cis people display towards transgendered people. Which clearly happens. I was going to get into it this morning when someone I quite like was posting about it. But I couldn't be arsed with all the "mansplaining" comeback I would probably get.

I would guess that a lot of transgendered/non-cis people have been helped on the way by cis people in the NHS. And by the vast majority of people who _don't_ make a big deal out of gender-reassignment, or those who will stick up for people they see being given a hard time.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 16, 2013)

If you have your feelings hurt by being told to "get fucked", you are immature and need to grow up.

Doesn't work does it?


----------



## Belushi (Aug 16, 2013)

This is where you end up if your politics is nothing but identity, the oppression olympics.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 16, 2013)

With half the competitors boycotting the games.


----------



## agricola (Aug 16, 2013)

Belushi said:


> This is where you end up if your politics is nothing but identity, the oppression olympics.


 
No doubt having gone to public school will make you more likely to win medals, as well.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

a lot of lgbt politics these days seems to just be nationalism with the sexuality as the "nation" rather than race.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 16, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  5m
> Not all men hate women, but all men benefit from sexism. Column asking men to stop moaning and stand up for feminism: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism …
> 
> No they don't


 
i haven't read her article but i suspect that all men do benefit, more or less.  individual cases aside, no doubt, but surely men do all benefit even if they don't want to.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 16, 2013)

I usually end up in knots thinking about this, but here goes.

Isn't it a bit weird that intersectionality on the one hand carves up people into a huge range of specific oppressed identities, but also gives licence to display other groups as being monolithicly and uniformly privileged?

So it's important to consider how a transgendered disabled person is oppressed in a way which is different from other disabled or transgendered people.

But all cis people can fuck off, and "all men" benefit from a sexist culture.

I find this confusing, even on its own terms.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I usually end up in knots thinking about this, but here goes.
> 
> Isn't it a bit weird that intersectionality on the one hand carves up people into a huge range of specific oppressed identities, but also gives licence to display other groups as being monolithicly and uniformly privileged?
> 
> ...


yep


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 16, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i haven't read her article but i suspect that all men do benefit, more or less. individual cases aside, no doubt, but surely men do all benefit even if they don't want to.


 
Surely the point is that they don't all benefit to the same degree? Clearly people assume particular things about me that they might not assume about a black woman.

The most objectionable thing I found about the article was the patronising tone - as if I had never considered these issues before and now that LP had laid down a challenge I could suddenly become all enlightened and do something about it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I usually end up in knots thinking about this, but here goes.
> 
> Isn't it a bit weird that intersectionality on the one hand carves up people into a huge range of specific oppressed identities, but also gives licence to display other groups as being monolithicly and uniformly privileged?
> 
> ...


 
I think that, as usual, Ms. Penny gives good quote, but adds no meat to the bones of her contention.
IMO we *can* say "all men are in a position to derive benefit from multiple generations of sexism, both institutional and broadly social", but we can't say "all men benefit from sexism" without elucidating beyond the general statement, because as a general statement it's glib and uninformative, as well as pandering to the very thing it purports to be in conflict with.  Ya can't defeat sexism by making sexist assumptions, Laura!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Surely the point is that they don't all benefit to the same degree? Clearly people assume particular things about me that they might not assume about a black woman.


 
That's one of the contradictions of intersectionality politics, as you've pointed out - everything is viewed monolithically, in "slabs" of "if A, then B", with little consideration for any confounding factors that might exist, such as (most usually), class, but also most of the other cross-cutting "isms".

The most objectionable thing I found about the article was the patronising tone - as if I had never considered these issues before and now that LP had laid down a challenge I could suddenly become all enlightened and do something about it.[/quote]

To be fair, that's one of the audiences she writes for, the other audience being those like herself who can feel smug about having *already* considered the issue (on their own terms, of course!).


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that, as usual, Ms. Penny gives good quote, but adds no meat to the bones of her contention.
> IMO we *can* say "all men are in a position to derive benefit from multiple generations of sexism, both institutional and broadly social", but we can't say "all men benefit from sexism" without elucidating beyond the general statement, because as a general statement it's glib and uninformative, as well as pandering to the very thing it purports to be in conflict with. Ya can't defeat sexism by making sexist assumptions, Laura!


 
well its like the whole "i've had enough of your shit , tumblr goyim" and saying that by saying stuff like that your striking a blow against oppression whereas you're actually a bigoted twat


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that, as usual, Ms. Penny gives good quote, but adds no meat to the bones of her contention.
> IMO we *can* say "all men are in a position to derive benefit from multiple generations of sexism, both institutional and broadly social", but we can't say "all men benefit from sexism" without elucidating beyond the general statement, because as a general statement it's glib and uninformative, as well as pandering to the very thing it purports to be in conflict with. Ya can't defeat sexism by making sexist assumptions, Laura!


 
well there was this follow up too:



> *Laurie Penny* @PennyRed
> For those asking 'HOW do men benefit from sexism?' as per my article, newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie… - start with this list! amptoons.com/blog/the-male-…


 
And there is a lot to agree with there (but also some things to disagree with - for example I think men's manhood _is_ called into question if they don't have kids).

But yes that was a bit of a glaring omission from the piece.

There is also an awkward question to ask about this, which is "do some _women_ benefit from a sexist culture?"

I'm not sure what the answer to that is. I guess there might be, but they would benefit in some ways and not benefit in some ways (which is the same for men, I think).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 16, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> well its like the whole "i've had enough of your shit , tumblr goyim" and saying that by saying stuff like that your striking a blow against oppression whereas you're actually a bigoted twat


Yup, and most of those who commit such stupidities seem entirely unaware that they're doing so. A lack of self-awareness that isn't excuseable.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 16, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  5m
> Not all men hate women, but all men benefit from sexism. Column asking men to stop moaning and stand up for feminism: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism …
> 
> No they don't


 

How does the unemployment rate being much higher for young men than young women factor into this exactly? Or are young men supposed to take solace in the fact that while they might be unemployed while their girlfriends are employed at least there are other men out there who think that their employed girlfriends are inferior on the basis of their gender?

This article is beyond fucking stupid and insulting, frankly people like Laurie Penny are far more, to use her turn of phrase, implicated in a system that oppresses women than I and most men are. The idea that the existence of individual men props up, for example, inadequate child care provision is just terrible logic and not a million miles away from the sort of thinking that blames the individual existence of Jews for the actions of the Israeli state. Fuck off lauriepenny, you are a compulsive liar, a poor writer and YOUR VERY EXISTENCE as a 'writer' *is* actively detrimental towards anything resembling a progressive and decent future in this country.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 16, 2013)

J Ed said:


> How does the unemployment rate being much higher for young men than young women factor into this exactly? Or are young men supposed to take solace in the fact that while they might be unemployed while their girlfriends are employed at least there are other men out there who think that their employed girlfriends are inferior on the basis of their gender?
> 
> This article is beyond fucking stupid and insulting, frankly people like Laurie Penny are far more, to use her turn of phrase, implicated in a system that oppresses women than I and most men are. The idea that the existence of individual men props up, for example, inadequate child care provision is just terrible logic and not a million miles away from the sort of thinking that blames the individual existence of Jews for the actions of the Israeli state. Fuck off lauriepenny, you are a compulsive liar, a poor writer and YOUR VERY EXISTENCE as a 'writer' *is* actively detrimental towards anything resembling a progressive and decent future in this country.


 
well i don't even think men do benefit from sexism necessarily - is somebody say turning up home from work stressed out from the effects of sexist harrassment in the workplace going to benefit their partner?


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 16, 2013)

This is where the total absence of a class analysis (or perhaps better just to say a total absence of politics) leads you to. All men are oppressors, all women are oppressed. Four legs good, two legs bad.





"You can be the gentlest, sweetest man in the world yet still benefit from sexism. That’s how oppression works. Thousands of otherwise decent people are persuaded to go along with an unfair system because it’s less hassle that way. _The appropriate response when somebody demands a change in that unfair system is to listen, rather than turning away or yelling, as a child might, that it’s not your fault_. And it isn’t your fault. I’m sure you’re lovely. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a responsibility to do something about it."

Erm, she didn't exactly follow her own script here when she made her brief interventions on the old thread, did she?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 16, 2013)

Is there no understanding of what _exploitation_ is in any of these people? Has the idea of _oppression_ just drowned that start point out? if so,then these people are nothing but liberals. if no, i find it very hard to see any evidence of it in anything they ever right. Which effectively puts them back in the liberal camp anyway.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There is also an awkward question to ask about this, which is "do some _women_ benefit from a sexist culture?"
> 
> I'm not sure what the answer to that is. I guess there might be, but they would benefit in some ways and not benefit in some ways (which is the same for men, I think).


 
Of course women employers benefit from sexist societal attitudes to women in similar ways to male employers, why wouldn't they?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is there no understanding of what _exploitation_ is in any of these people? Has the idea of _oppression_ just drowned that start point out? if so,then these people are nothing but liberals. if no, i find it very hard to see any evidence of it in anything they ever right. Which effectively puts them back in the liberal camp anyway.


 

I don't think that there is any interest in how people are materially affected by stuff like sexism or racism in terms of employment, or childcare or whatever because it simply isn't something that really factors into LP's daily life. Actually, that isn't true, she does like to talk about how endemically sexist the British media is (unlike the US media apparently) when people have the temerity not to employ her.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 16, 2013)

I suspect Laurie confuses listening and agreeing. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't necessarily mean they haven't listened to your point of view.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> With half the competitors *boy*cotting the games.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 16, 2013)

The latest from Ellie Mae O'Hagan:



> "Anyway, people think UK Uncut is the bee's knees now. Telegraph columnists write glowing articles about its achievements, its activists get courted by big companies desperate to avoid some bad headlines, people like me get invited on to Newsnight to argue about tax avoidance. But I remember a time when being in UK Uncut meant you got sprayed with CS gas, smeared by Boris Johnson on Question Time, branded an "embryonic terrorist group" by Michael Gove's thinktank and denounced as violent by the very politicians who are now clambering to label tax avoidance "morally wrong". Now opposing tax avoidance is de rigeur; most people have forgotten that the people who made it fashionable were originally dismissed as idealists."


----------



## Belushi (Aug 16, 2013)

Hmmm she seems completely unaware of what it says about UK Uncut that it has been so easily and speedily co-opted by the establishment.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Surely the point is that they don't all benefit to the same degree? Clearly people assume particular things about me that they might not assume about a black woman.


 
of course, is she saying that an alcoholic working class black man has greater social power than Lady Oink by dint of his testicles?  that's obv nonsense.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 16, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Hmmm she seems completely unaware of what it says about UK Uncut that it has been so easily and speedily co-opted by the establishment.



Also some of the early UKuncut actions (top shop) got good coverage in the daily mail iirc. 

(At one of the first demos - Vodafone on Oxford Street, the only literature being given out was a photocopy of a Private Eye article.)

Few things are MORE establishment than demanding people pay their tax, surely?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> This is where the total absence of a class analysis (or perhaps better just to say a total absence of politics) leads you to. All men are oppressors, all women are oppressed. Four legs good, two legs bad.


 
Yep. When the point about class has been made directly to Ms. Penny and several of her ilk, they always skirt it. They don't dismiss it as irrelevant, but bury it through referencing other forms of oppression, missing the point that class sits behind every one of those alternative oppressions.





> "You can be the gentlest, sweetest man in the world yet still benefit from sexism. That’s how oppression works. Thousands of otherwise decent people are persuaded to go along with an unfair system because it’s less hassle that way. _The appropriate response when somebody demands a change in that unfair system is to listen, rather than turning away or yelling, as a child might, that it’s not your fault_. And it isn’t your fault. I’m sure you’re lovely. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a responsibility to do something about it."
> 
> Erm, she didn't exactly follow her own script here when she made her brief interventions on the old thread, did she?


 
No, she never does.  She either ignores her own hypocrisies (multitudinous), or she genuinely doesn't see them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is there no understanding of what _exploitation_ is in any of these people? Has the idea of _oppression_ just drowned that start point out? if so,then these people are nothing but liberals. if no, i find it very hard to see any evidence of it in anything they ever right. Which effectively puts them back in the liberal camp anyway.


 
Exploitation, you'd think, would fit in perfectly with the intersectionalist's belief in hierarchies of oppression, but that would require admitting a hierarchy whereby, at least in "the west", a majority of white working-class men and women are exploited, which doesn't fit with the intersectionalist agenda whereby all oppression proceeds from the honkie.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> of course, is she saying that an alcoholic working class black man has greater social power than Lady Oink by dint of his testicles? that's obv nonsense.


 
But that's how intersectional theory, as applied by these goits, slices things. There's no acknowledgement of social nuance, just a sledgehammer of (as The Pale King put it) "four legs good, two legs bad".  Those with one leg, three legs, or more than four legs are forgotten about/ignored.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> The latest from Ellie Mae O'Hagan:


 
you can't crucify someone through the palms, that picture is wrong. And jesus is too white.

fucking shoddy religious art


----------



## maomao (Aug 17, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> you can't crucify someone through the palms


 
He's tied with rope as well. It would work but might be a bit messier.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> you can't crucify someone through the palms


 
i'd be up for giving it a go, all i need is a crucifyee


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> you can't crucify someone through the palms, that picture is wrong. And jesus is too white.
> 
> fucking shoddy religious art


 
while the crucifixion seems rather idiosyncratick they have tied the arm to the cross and then nailed him up - belt and braces as it were

but i was under the impression that in acts jesus is showing off his stagmata to anyone he could inveigle into looking at his hands and ankles: so something was done to his hands.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd be up for giving it a go, all i need is a crucifyee


next time i'm in london..


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> next time i'm in london..


 
we'll discuss it before we do anything irrevocable to your hands.


----------



## spawnofsatan (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> next time i'm in london..


 
You want nailing next time your in London, fair play to you Tufts!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

spawnofsatan said:


> You want nailing next time your in London, fair play to you Tufts!


 
she's coming to london to get her nails done


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

spawnofsatan said:


> You want nailing next time your in London, fair play to you Tufts!


only by a select couple of people. borrowing a suit of armour off a larping mate for the rest of youse


----------



## discokermit (Aug 17, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> idiosyncratick


oh the irony.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

discokermit said:


> oh the irony.


 
oh the humanity


----------



## spawnofsatan (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> only by a select couple of people. borrowing a suit of armour off a larping mate for the rest of youse


 
I have chain mail and various weapons of that era, fancy a tournament?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2013)




----------



## discokermit (Aug 17, 2013)

bollocks. too slow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

spawnofsatan said:


> I have chain mail and various weapons of that era, fancy a tournament?


 
bet you're all rusty


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2013)

discokermit said:


>


 
in your case the huger manatee


----------



## spawnofsatan (Aug 17, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> bet you're all rusty


 
Rusty and crusty, thats me!


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

spawnofsatan said:


> I have chain mail and various weapons of that era, fancy a tournament?


yeah, sure thing. i'll bring a thwacky stick, and we can go to battle 
(that's on the way to hastings, isn't it? i need a day out in hastings if i'm heading down sarf)


----------



## spawnofsatan (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> yeah, sure thing. i'll bring a thwacky stick, and we can go to battle
> (that's on the way to hastings, isn't it? i need a day out in hastings if i'm heading down sarf)


 
Well as long as you don't mind me sticking your head on a pole and displaying it to the assembled throng.

I choose Morning star and Bodkin.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

challenge accepted.
i choose pikachu and my knight in rusty armour as a not-so-secret weapon, but faithful companion 

i also have a colander hat, and a hello kitty poundshop bubblesword. been told it'd go well with chainmail 

edit: sorry. offtopic. i'm not going to do that to *this* thread


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

oo! thwacking opportunity beckons. (not really. more of a 'ask robust questions' opportunity)
http://wnypeoplesassembly.org.uk/events.htm#3sep
*Tuesday 3rd September 2013*
*Public Meeting with Owen Jones*

And speakers from local campaign groups.
Owen Jones is a columnist for The Independent, activist and author of 'Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class'
The event is free and everyone is very welcome.

Start:
Venue:
Address:

3rd September
Leeds Met Rose Bowl
Portland Crescent
Leeds, LS1 3HB
Get directions
Venue website
Facebook event page


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 18, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I suspect Laurie confuses listening and agreeing. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't necessarily mean they haven't listened to your point of view.


 

Unless, of course you're arrogant enough to think you're always right and anyone disagreeing is always wrong and/or has some dark and evil motives for not instantly falling into line. That and having the political depth of a puddle, even more limited journalistic integrity than Claud Cockburn, the petulance of Violet Elizabeth Bott and the general usefulness of a concrete parachute.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Aug 19, 2013)




----------



## J Ed (Aug 19, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> View attachment 39460


 

More bottom feeding shit scummery from Mensch here


----------



## caleb (Aug 19, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> View attachment 39460


 
"Monstrous threats to democracy" is a bit lol.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 19, 2013)

I had the pleasure of destroying a book of hers today


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 19, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that there is any interest in how people are materially affected by stuff like sexism or racism in terms of employment, or childcare or whatever because it simply isn't something that really factors into LP's daily life.


 

It's all about attitudes and feelings. Sexism is men _hating _women. The oppression of women is systemic male hate. Or something.

It's a bad thing.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

I just got this email from the US campaign to end the occupation. On their website there's a link to this:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/downloads/InternshipSpring2012.pdf

I know loads of people here have been involved in PSC stuff, anyone fancy an unpaid internship working up to 30 hours a week for it? You can only apply if you've graduated from uni recently. And being an activist counts towards your degree now. talk about fucking co opting dissent?

am i wrong to think that stuff like this shouldn't count towards your degree, people who organised gaza sit ins were in some cases hounded by uni management?

what do people think about this, DrRingDing etc?


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 20, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23764634

Louise Mensch says the state knows best. Snowden is a bad egg cos he used the Starbucks in Moscow Airport or something. She seems to have added even more stridency to her game since she's been in America, and she now comes across like a coked-up head girl at debating club.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

thats funny, cos she used to have a taste for that and her squeeze is mettalicas manager so she's almost certainly got the motivation and access to quality columbian marching powder.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

i thought she was on smack?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i thought she was on smack?


 
New Smack.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i thought she was on smack?


 

She left Corby to get away from brown


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.endtheoccupation.org/downloads/InternshipSpring2012.pdf


 
'Internship Spring' - so can we expect an employment revolution?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> New Smack.


 
The cool kind? Not the tramp kind.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> 'Internship Spring' - so can we expect an employment revolution?


 
Seriously read it.

In what world does "activism" count towards your degree?

total co-option by the state and capital


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> New Smack.


New Smack is old hat.

Louise is all about the Compassionate Crack.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> The cool kind? Not the tramp kind.


 
yep, cool New Smack, for people waaay too rich cool to worry about addiction.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> New Smack is old hat.
> 
> Louise is all about the Compassionate Crack.


 
Compassionate Crack for Caring Conservatives.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

she did the 'lol you are buying something from somewhere so your argument is invalid' thing about the occupy protesters going for a coffee, when she was on HIGNFY. Ian Hislop mugged her off then but clearly it didn't sink in


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> yep, cool New Smack, for people waaay too rich cool to worry about addiction.


It's not an addiction, it's a works ethic.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

where did this "new smack" shit come from? There aren't really hipsters taking smack ironically are there? Please tell me this is not true. God, God, why did you do this to me


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I just got this email from the US campaign to end the occupation. On their website there's a link to this:
> 
> http://www.endtheoccupation.org/downloads/InternshipSpring2012.pdf
> 
> ...


 



> Please note that this is an unpaid internship.


 
That's shocking. 

I find the NGO sector extremely old boys/girls driven. It's pretty nauseating and infuriating. It's all rather jolly hockey sticks.

As for it counting as credit for your degree? I dunno how the US degree thing is calculated if you get extra points for extra curricular activity. If it was well funded Zionists bribing students I'd be spitting feathers.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> where did this "new smack" shit come from? There aren't really hipsters taking smack ironically are there? Please tell me this is not true. God, God, why did you do this to me


 
I doubt it mate - If you want to take smack you've got to mean it really. Either digging or tooting off foil, both fairly dirty, I honest to god can't see anyone doing things like that ironically.

Louise Bagshawe though, when she said she'd took serie A drugs, I assumed she meant cocaine? Has she had a dabble with smack though? I'm almost ashamed to say it but if she has, she's gone up slightly in my estimation.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> That's shocking.
> 
> I find the NGO sector extremely old boys/girls driven. It's pretty nauseating and infuriating. It's all rather jolly hockey sticks.
> 
> As for it counting as credit for your degree? I dunno how the US degree thing is calculated if you get extra points for extra curricular activity. If it was well funded Zionists bribing students I'd be spitting feathers.


 
Yeah exactly. It just shows the cooption of dissent by state/capital.

Is it that bad in the UK? I've never had a job in the charity sector although I've been involved with PSC and I've also done some volunteering for other charities. It seems very hard to get paid positions in any of them - I don't know what it's like during the higher levels.

I reckon I'd get that internship, but probably be sacked after the first day


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I doubt it mate - If you want to take smack you've got to mean it really. Either digging or tooting off foil, both fairly dirty, I honest to god can't see anyone doing things like that ironically.
> 
> Louise Bagshawe though, when she said she'd took serie A drugs, I assumed she meant cocaine? Has she had a dabble with smack though? I'm almost ashamed to say it but if she has, she's gone up slightly in my estimation.


 

almost certainly the nose powders. She's from very very old money, I don't think brown is hip with that set


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> where did this "new smack" shit come from? There aren't really hipsters taking smack ironically are there? Please tell me this is not true. God, God, why did you do this to me


 
it's not irony, it's really and honestly that they think that there is a difference.  THEY can be be trusted to take hard drugs because they're cool and smart and white and they'll never be like the poor people hustling for drugs money that they look down on.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah exactly. It just shows the cooption of dissent by state/capital.
> 
> Is it that bad in the UK? I've never had a job in the charity sector although I've been involved with PSC and I've also done some volunteering for other charities. It seems very hard to get paid positions in any of them - I don't know what it's like during the higher levels.


 
I seem to find myself a many parties where virtually everyone works for an NGO......and most of the people have been to the same uni.

It's a tiny world dominated by small social group.

I may be being excessively grumpy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I doubt it mate - If you want to take smack you've got to mean it really. Either digging or tooting off foil, both fairly dirty, I honest to god can't see anyone doing things like that ironically.
> 
> Louise Bagshawe though, when she said she'd took serie A drugs, I assumed she meant cocaine? Has she had a dabble with smack though? I'm almost ashamed to say it but if she has, she's gone up slightly in my estimation.


 
nah, i've met the New Smack users enough times.  hell, a few of them I met through Urban 75.  brixton is crawling with them recently, east london too.  and even when one overdoses the others don't get a wake-up call!

doubt that mensch is one of them, but she's had more than her fair share of coke and i'd bet a pound to a bucket of shit that she still does, and still believes that working class people should have their substances controlled because they can't be trusted.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> *I seem to find myself a many parties* where virtually everyone works for an NGO......and most of the people have been to the same uni.
> 
> It's a tiny world dominated by small social group.
> 
> I may be being excessively grumpy.


 
Hark at him 

Only messing.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> nah, i've met the New Smack users enough times. hell, a few of them I met through Urban 75. brixton is crawling with them recently, east london too. and even when one overdoses the others don't get a wake-up call!
> 
> doubt that mensch is one of them, but she's had more than her fair share of coke and i'd bet a pound to a bucket of shit that she still does, and still believes that working class people should have their substances controlled because they can't be trusted.


 
Jesus. You've genuinely shocked me.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's not irony, it's really and honestly that they think that there is a difference. THEY can be be trusted to take hard drugs because they're cool and smart and white and they'll never be like the poor people hustling for drugs money that they look down on.


 
"not like builders or blacks for example"


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> nah, i've met the New Smack users enough times. hell, a few of them I met through Urban 75. brixton is crawling with them recently, east london too. and even when one overdoses the others don't get a wake-up call!
> 
> doubt that mensch is one of them, but she's had more than her fair share of coke and i'd bet a pound to a bucket of shit that she still does, and still believes that working class people should have their substances controlled because they can't be trusted.


 
jesus.

thing is, that in the 60s and 70s, i bet many of the musicians and celebrities who ended up dying by overdosing on Smack came from middle class backgrounds. The health risks and addictive properties of smack don't differ depending on what class you are ffs

really how stupid can people get


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

I never thought you'd be a junkie cos heroin is so passe. but today.


is that not true now? I don't want to live in a world where brown is cool and sexy again


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

the smack revival

but how the fuck can you think that smack won't affect you because you're rich and cool but yet advocate a ban on everything for the proles. Do they not know what happened to Amy Winehouse


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> jesus.
> 
> thing is, *that in the 60s and 70s, i bet many of the musicians and celebrities who ended up dying by overdosing on Smack came from middle class backgrounds*. The health risks and addictive properties of smack don't differ depending on what class you are ffs
> 
> really how stupid can people get


 
They will have been - Heroin didn't really become widely available and used in working class communities til the early eighties. Then it did change the script in a million and one ways. Some people reckon that it was introduced on purpose to quell the inner city riots. I doubt the govt was that organised TBH, I think it happened just coz it happened.

It's not all that anyway, I can handle it


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

people don't learn.  hell, it wasn't smack, but i didn't until it crept up on me.

you think you can handle stuff, you see people around you doing stupid amounts, you think drugs are cool and sexy (and therefore, by extension, doing them will make you etc.).  also shock value too i guess.  nihilism points etc etc.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> is that not true now? I don't want to live in a world where brown is cool and sexy again


 

As long as it's only hipsters dying.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

80s LARPing for middle class kids from the home counties.  DM boots, donkey jackets, living in ex-council flats in formerly run-down inner cities, doing smack and listening to the specials.  reading laurie penny articles because it's the closest thing they've got to radical angry political firebrands.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

i'd never touch anything apart from the odd spliff, and I do really enjoy good weed, I'd never make a habit of it though, can't afford it anyway. i've been laughed at for my anti drug ways in the past but i'd rather be laughed at than end up like some of the people ive known


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> 80s LARPing for middle class kids from the home counties. DM boots, donkey jackets, living in ex-council flats in formerly run-down inner cities, doing smack and listening to the specials. reading laurie penny articles because it's the closest thing they've got to radical angry political firebrands.


 

first as tragedy...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> 80s LARPing for middle class kids from the home counties. DM boots, donkey jackets, living in ex-council flats in formerly run-down inner cities, doing smack and listening to the specials. reading laurie penny articles because it's the closest thing they've got to radical angry political firebrands.


 
Straight up? Does that happen?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Straight up? Does that happen?


 
Where do you live?  Visit London and see them pretending to be proles every-fucking-where.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

I can hear them from here.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)




----------



## J Ed (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I just got this email from the US campaign to end the occupation. On their website there's a link to this:
> 
> http://www.endtheoccupation.org/downloads/InternshipSpring2012.pdf
> 
> ...


 

Something that I noticed about London student politics is that at least some time spent in Palestine seems to have been mentioned by a lot of the successful candidates for the better jobs in a way that sounded very work experienceish to me.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Something that I noticed about London student politics is that at least some time spent in Palestine seems to have been mentioned by a lot of the successful candidates for the better jobs in a way that sounded very work experienceish to me.


 
ugh.

what uni was that?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

i did an internship in a publishing company for two months, i had some money left over from other stuff (it was just after i'd come back from being abroad), i rapidly got into huge amounts of debt tho which took me about a year to pay back. i couldn't afford to do it now, i couldn't afford to do it then


----------



## belboid (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


I know people who did 'work experience' over the summer for various companies (very popular in publishing especially back then) - but the idea of calling them 'internships' hadn't crossed anyone's mind back then.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> ugh.
> 
> what uni was that?


 

UCL

Actually this group seems to overlap with the LARPing thing mentioned above I think.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

belboid said:


> I know people who did 'work experience' over the summer for various companies (very popular in publishing especially back then) - but the idea of calling them 'internships' hadn't crossed anyone's mind back then.


 
Some of these internships last a year though, or more!


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> UCL
> 
> Actually this group seems to overlap with the LARPing thing mentioned above I think.


 
I reckon I could get that job, I'd probably be sacked after the first day though.

"but what about the israeli working class?"
"you're fired!"


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

What's LARP?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

live-action roleplay I think butchersapron


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Right, so playing a role then?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

in full costume, but yes


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

With full consequences.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What's LARP?


 

Usually it's associated with people dressing up and playing around like they are in Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons

Like this


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Not:


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> jesus.
> 
> thing is, that in the 60s and 70s, i bet many of the musicians and celebrities who ended up dying by overdosing on Smack came from middle class backgrounds. The health risks and addictive properties of smack don't differ depending on what class you are ffs
> 
> really how stupid can people get


 
About ten years ago in Dublin there was a mini-wave of upper-middle class kids ODing on the Fruit of the Poppy.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Radio 4 predicted that monogamy would lose its "moral monopoly" within 10 years. Bring it on, I say.

Radio 4. I kid you not. Radio 4.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

This article actualy says:



> It may be hard for the conservative old guard to fathom


 
Again, i kid you not.



> Personally, I started practicing non-monogamy in my early 20s as a statement against the tyranny of the heterosexual couple form and the patriarchal nuclear family, but then again, I did a lot of silly things for similar reasons in my early 20s.


 
Are there no editors here? What are the similar things? What's the point of the second sentence?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 

My OH. Is there a problem?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> My OH. Is there a problem?


 Yeah she's shit and you're shit.

Anyone else interested in discussing how widespread this is, what sectors it effects, what sort of people if effects, how it compares to other non-intern jobs - you can all reply.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> My OH. Is there a problem?


 
Is there a problem with the use of interns? I think that there is. Do you not?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah she's shit and you're shit.


 
Charming. 

....anymore stunning analysis you'd like to share with us?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is there a problem with the use of interns? I think that there is. Do you not?


 

I think there is a massive problem with unpaid internships.

She's on a paid one.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Charming.
> 
> ....anymore stunning analysis you'd like to share with us?


 
You know that bit when a RADA graduate tries to give someone some verbals in eastenders?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> I think there is a massive problem with unpaid internships.
> 
> She's on a paid one.


 
Well done you and her! Thanks for the posts.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Amazing that dingding can read an attempt to establish the depth of intern use as an attack on him his gf, nay, his family, his sexuality, his car, his life. What's he hiding?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing that dingding can read an attempt to establish the depth of intern use as an attack on him his gf, nay, his family, his sexuality, his car, his life. What's he hiding?


 

You're off your tits.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

This is a politics thread. Go away and come back with some politics.


----------



## andysays (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This article actualy says:
> 
> Again, i kid you not.
> 
> Are there no editors here? What are the similar things? What's the point of the second sentence?


 
Who needs editors when you're as edgy as Laurie?

You're just oppressing her with your conventional notions of good writing - I bet you're even in a monogamous relationship, you square...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

You might as well have said _businessman in his suit and tie. _It's just...shit.


----------



## Sue (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 
Me either. Such things didn't exist when I was young and, if they had, would've been called -- much more accurately IMO -- 'working for no pay' and been completely disapproved of. Don't know that many youngsters these days but the ones I do know, couldn't afford to work for nothing. (Though my niece is doing an 'apprenticeship' in retail which seems to involve working in a shop for less than minimum wage. )


----------



## fogbat (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What's LARP?


Nerds in leather hitting each other with sticks. Like BDSM, but without the erections.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is a politics thread. Go away and come back with some politics.


 

Calm down. You'll over tire yourself.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Calm down. You'll over tire yourself.


 
Why are you even here after your embarrassing_ did you start on my gf _shit?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Nerds in leather hitting each other with sticks. Like BDSM, but without the erections.


 
That's LARC.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Nerds in leather hitting each other with sticks. Like BDSM, but *without the erections.*


 

au contraire


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 20, 2013)

I've never been to a party where virtually all the people there work, paid or unpaid, for an NGO, with most having gone to the same university. 

I've been to a few where virtually everyone works a 'bullshit' job and a few went to an ex-poly, though. Although not the same one.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why are you even here after your embarrassing_ did you start on my gf _shit?


 

You are genuinely off your tits. I hope the storm passes soon.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> I've never been to a party where virtually all the people there work, paid or unpaid, for an NGO, with most having gone to the same university.
> 
> I've been to a few where virtually everyone works a 'bullshit' job and a few went to an ex-poly, though. Although not the same one.


 



You can take my place if you like.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> You are genuinely off your tits. I hope the storm passes soon.


 
As ever, nothing political under any name - just deflection and a back disappearing into the distance.




			
				dingdong said:
			
		

> My OH. Is there a problem?


 
I mean really. Fucking hell. I write some embarrassing shit but that...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> You can take my place if you like.


 
You forced to be there/their anarchist?

(I had to explicate the pun because he's stupid)


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

Where as you write some pretentious cryptic bollocks and haughtily dismiss anyone calling you out on it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

No, i write directly political stuff and defend what i say. You - you're a waft.

You're also a massive bottler.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, i write directly political stuff and defend what i say. You - you're a waft.
> 
> You're also a massive bottler.


 

Who's posting embarrassing shite?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Who's posting embarrassing shite?


 
You. Crack on.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> You can take my place if you like.



Anarchist or not we live on different planets.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> Anarchist or not we live on different planets.


 

Go on then. How does your world differ from mine?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

1) Shall we try and establish some things about the use of interns and the people involved in this discussion?

2) You got a problem with interns pal?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Go on then. How does your world differ from mine?


 
You're seven leagues down in credibility. Just walk away.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You're seven leagues down in credibility. Just walk away.


 

Take your medication. The Great British Bake Off will be on soon.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> About ten years ago in Dublin there was a mini-wave of upper-middle class kids ODing on the Fruit of the Poppy.


 
Presumably a combination of it being very easy to get hold of here, combined with an "edgy" image.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Take your medication. The Great British Bake Off will be on soon.


 
Can't say anything political. You've been 10 years here under various names, never seen a political post from you.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Presumably a combination of it being very easy to get hold of here, combined with an "edgy" image.


 
Pretty much. I think one of the shit-for-brains Greystones lads I knew two decades - you probably know, or know of, the other, who is nicknamed 'negligent' in Dublin legal circles, I believe - was doing H.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Can't say anything political. You've been 10 years here under various names, never seen a political post from you.


 

Keep trying babes.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 
Really? Over here, the government has set up a state sponsored unpaid (well you get 50 quid a week on top of your dole) intern scheme. Which has succeeded in replacing large number of low paid jobs with unpaid ones.

And it means that the dole office tries to push people into "interning" as window cleaners, waiters, shop assistants etc etc etc. So while interns used to be something you found in art galleries or newspapers, now working for nothing is on the way to being universalised for young people. It was of course introduced by a Labour Minister.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

Here's the Socialist Party's website devoted to detailing the "Jobbridge" intern scheme:
http://www.scambridge.ie/


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Pretty much. I think one of the shit-for-brains Greystones lads I knew two decades - you probably know, or know of, the other, who is nicknamed 'negligent' in Dublin legal circles, I believe - was doing H.


 
Now that's some quality gossip.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This article actualy says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Second sentence implies that it's a 'silly thing' to do.

Fucking atrocious article.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> Anarchist or not we live on different planets.


 

I'm still waiting for a reply on how our worlds differ?


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 20, 2013)

You can't even see it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> You can't even see it.


 

Spell it out to me.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

Go on humour me.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)




----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 20, 2013)

Urban v's Urban


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 20, 2013)

Read your earlier post. Seriously.

Annakissed.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> Read your earlier post. Seriously.
> 
> Annakissed.


 

No really, please explain what you mean.

What are you saying?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Really? Over here, the government has set up a state sponsored unpaid (well you get 50 quid a week on top of your dole) intern scheme. Which has succeeded in replacing large number of low paid jobs with unpaid ones.
> 
> And it means that the dole office tries to push people into "interning" as window cleaners, waiters, shop assistants etc etc etc. So while interns used to be something you found in art galleries or newspapers, now working for nothing is on the way to be universalised for young people.


 
Totally different intern. Intern here means unpaid/paid at a lower rate experience at an elite/middling/NGO cultural institution. That sort of shit.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

Your shit boasts of being more w/c are frankly bollocks.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 20, 2013)

Haven't a clue.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> Haven't a clue.


 

So you play the "I'm considerably more working class than yow" card....and you can't back it up.

Off you trot.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

_Full Fathom Five_ this one eh?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Totally different intern. Intern here means unpaid/paid at a lower rate experience at an cultural institution.


 
That's what it used to mean here. But even before the government's slave labour scheme it was expanding into more and more types of work. Most of that expansion was in lines of work that carried some element of desirability, but that's a quickly expanding category in a recession. Jobbridge gave it a huge and sudden push towards universalisation, but there was a trend in that direction anyway. Albeit one that would never have reached window cleaning without the government's helpful intervention.

When you combine it with the gradual move towards third level courses in things that were once learnt as paid on the job training, it really is a great time to be a boss with a young work force over here. You don't have to pay them when they are learning. Then you don't have to pay qualified people while they intern. Then you don't have to give them a job at the end.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

We are still talking about different things, difference experiences and different results. Now we have a generation of posh kids writing articles about the brutality of the intern system whilst having interns in their workplace. Different worlds - don't let the swords cross.

Shit-work via the integration of the benefit system and 'labour market' is on the agenda for t_he other interns._


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

While employing interns themselves.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Radio 4 predicted that monogamy would lose its "moral monopoly" within 10 years. Bring it on, I say.
> 
> Radio 4. I kid you not. Radio 4.


Everything that is going on in the world, and that is what she fucking writes about!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> We are still talking about different things, difference experiences and different results. Now we have a generation of posh kids writing articles about the brutality of the intern system whilst having interns in their workplace. Different worlds - don't let the swords cross.
> 
> Shit-work via the integration of the benefit system and 'labour market' is on the agenda for t_he other interns._


 
Fair point.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> Where do you live? Visit London and see them pretending to be proles every-fucking-where.


 
I moved out of Rochdale to get rid of that shite.

Rochdale though - Items delivered to the door with an apology "Soz it took twenty minutes rather than the usual five" "It's ramadan & I'm fasting, you belled me at ten bells, I was having sumat to eat"


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

Just thinking about this for a second, what jobs (or "careers"!) often involve a period as an intern as a kind of gatekeeper? In the UK, I mean, and over here before jobbridge.

Journalism, TV production, graphic design, anything in an art gallery bar being a porter. But it's not just the cultural stuff, is it? Don't big solicitors firms and investment banks and like also have interns? NGOs? What else?

(Of these by the way, it looks to me like there's a bit of a "one of these things is not like the others" aspect to working in art galleries, which is not generally a path to big money or even decent pay or influence/connections/useful networks).


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

fashion houses do i think too.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

All the  great institution of the state and also of civil society - cultural, political, legal, economic. And the rest.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> fashion houses do i think too.


 
Yes, they do. And that one strikes me as falling into a similar category as the gallery one. There's neither money to be made nor useful networks to establish involved, at least for the most part, but there is a limitless supply of posh kids willing to work for next to nothing which makes it exceedingly tough for anyone else. They are also female dominated types of work at least at the bottom end, which nearly always results in worse pay and conditions and fewer advancement opportunities.

The easiest route to becoming an actual lead designer isn't through long work acquiring the (highly technical) skills to being, say a pattern cutter, and then working very long hours for not great money. It's being the owner's kid.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> All the great institution of the state and also of civil society - cultural, political, legal, economic. And the rest.


 
So it's functionally a gatekeeping thing, sifting the kids whose families can support them for years on end from the kinds whose families can't?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23764634
> 
> Louise Mensch says the state knows best. Snowden is a bad egg cos he used the Starbucks in Moscow Airport or something. She seems to have added even more stridency to her game since she's been in America, and she now comes across like a coked-up head girl at debating club.


 
Louise Mensch is still fishing for a gig on Fox News, hence the stridency, and the belief that she can chat shit with no come-backs.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> So it's functionally a gatekeeping thing, sifting the kids whose families can support them for years on end from the kinds whose families can't?


 
Yes, elite guild organisation simply.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's not irony, it's really and honestly that they think that there is a difference. THEY can be be trusted to take hard drugs because they're cool and smart and white and they'll never be like the poor people hustling for drugs money that they look down on.


 
Mostly because they're tool cool and smart to have read "Junky" by William Borroughs, where he makes it clear that it doesn't matter how clever, cool or monied you are, once the smack has locked you in its' embrace you'd still lick a truckstop toilet clean on the promise of a fix.


----------



## Sue (Aug 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> When you combine it with the gradual move towards third level courses in things that were once *learnt as paid on the job training*, it really is a great time to be a boss with a young work force over here. You don't have to pay them when they are learning. Then you don't have to pay qualified people while they intern. Then you don't have to give them a job at the end.


 
As I said earlier, apprenticeships for retail (and sure there must be many more) are an example of this. You get paid 'apprentice' wages so well less than the minimum wage and as far as I can work out, the 'training' seems to involve how to use the till, put stock out and other things that you used to learn on the job. Not sure of the full details, but think for my neice it was either do the apprenticeship or not work -- don't think they were prepared to give youngsters an actual job paying a proper wage. And obviously retail is not something where most people are ever going to be high earners.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 
I don't. I don't know anyone who could afford to work unpaid, even with a promise of a job at the end of it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Something that I noticed about London student politics is that at least some time spent in Palestine seems to have been mentioned by a lot of the successful candidates for the better jobs in a way that sounded very work experienceish to me.


 
Ticks a box on the CV.
Then, when any of the cunts achieve their aim to become an MP, first thing they do is join "Labour Friends of Israel", AKA "Hooray for Zionism!".


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mostly because they're tool cool and smart to have read "Junky" by William Borroughs, where he makes it clear that it doesn't matter how clever, cool or monied you are, once the smack has locked you in its' embrace you'd still lick a truckstop toilet clean on the promise of a fix.


 
You wouldn't - Some groovers would, but by no means all. Honest to god, do you reckon you'd sell your dignity out for a taste? Nor would I. It really isn't _that_ addictive.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't. I don't know anyone who could afford to work unpaid, even with a promise of a job at the end of it.


 
He said intern not unpaid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing that dingding can read an attempt to establish the depth of intern use as an attack on him his gf, nay, his family, his sexuality, his car, his life. What's he hiding?


 
His deep and abiding commitment to Jonesite neo-socialism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> No really, please explain what you mean.
> 
> What are you saying?


 
Think about what anarchism is, and what it stands for and against.

Now, square the philosophy with your posts, and look for the gaps.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You wouldn't - Some groovers would, but by no means all. Honest to god, do you reckon you'd sell your dignity out for a taste? Nor would I. It really isn't _that_ addictive.


 
My experience differs. I had one mate who got Hep C because of the "speciality" tricks he turned to earn enough to keep him in smack (we know it wasn't dirty works, because he didn't share them, ever), and another who got into a very nasty S&M scene for the same reason. Both of 'em were perfectly happy to sell their dignity for their next fix, even if it was to stave off feeling sick rather than to get high.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> He said intern not unpaid.


 
Given that even with various legislative guidelines, around 85% of *declared* (i.e. positions advertised as such) internships (at least according to the NS last year) are unpaid, then if you say "intern" the likely conclusion to be drawn is that you're referring to the 85% of unpaid internships, not the small minority of paid ones.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ticks a box on the CV.
> Then, when any of the cunts achieve their aim to become an MP, first thing they do is join "Labour Friends of Israel", AKA "Hooray for Zionism!".


 
who has done this?

not saying it's not happened but i'd have thought they'd go for the galloway/respect trajectory, there's also plenty of money in being some sort of liberal "anti imperialist" apologist for dodgy middle eastern regimes (israel's also one but you know what i mean)

the only famous anti zionist i can think who became a sort of zionist is christopher hitchens


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> My experience differs. I had one mate who got Hep C because of the "speciality" tricks he turned to earn enough to keep him in smack (we know it wasn't dirty works, because he didn't share them, ever), and another who got into a very nasty S&M scene for the same reason. Both of 'em were perfectly happy to sell their dignity for their next fix, even if it was to stave off feeling sick rather than to get high.


 
Soz about your mates - No harm meant. I was being a prick there . My best mate's got hep C though.
Maybe it's a Rochdale thing - There's just _nothing_ anyway. Or something.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You're seven leagues down in credibility. Just walk away.


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


We get workfare


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> We get workfare


 
We get workfare, they get interns.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Think about what anarchism is, and what it stands for and against.
> 
> Now, square the philosophy with your posts, and look for the gaps.


 
Don't be a plonker.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't. I don't know anyone who could afford to work unpaid, even with a promise of a job at the end of it.


 
Me and my mate from school both got a First at university. She didn't have to work while studying. I had to have a weekend shop job throughout. She went on a one year internship after she graduated and her parents continued to support her. I went to work full-time in the shop because there were bills to pay and no-one who could afford to pay them for me. 15 years later she works for the Foreign Office. I'm still in a part-time shop job.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mostly because they're tool cool and smart to have read "Junky" by William Borroughs, where he makes it clear that it doesn't matter how clever, cool or monied you are, once the smack has locked you in its' embrace you'd still lick a truckstop toilet clean on the promise of a fix.


 
i dunno, i tried reading that once and gave up.  but given some of the things i have done to ensure my fix, i;d say he was right on the money.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

Burroughs kept a habit and kept clean for 60 years because he had money. He always had money.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> who has done this?
> 
> not saying it's not happened but i'd have thought they'd go for the galloway/respect trajectory, there's also plenty of money in being some sort of liberal "anti imperialist" apologist for dodgy middle eastern regimes (israel's also one but you know what i mean)
> 
> the only famous anti zionist i can think who became a sort of zionist is christopher hitchens


 

I'm not convinced that Christopher Hitchens ever did become a Zionist, I don't have it to hand but I remember reading in Hitch-22 (which is an interesting read but not one that made me very sympathetic to him) that his opinion of Israel was still very much that it was a racist country despite his turn to Neoconservativism-with-a-gloss-of-Trotskyist-rhetoric.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 21, 2013)

Looks like some interns are earning the equivalent of up top £45,000 a year.




> Merrill Lynch did not comment on the length of Erhardt's working hours, and also declined to comment on whether interns – who are understood to be paid £45,000 pro rata – are routinely made to work longer than 12-hour days.


 
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/aug/21/bank-intern-death-working-hours


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

I know a Russian who did an internship at citigroup and she did more than 12 hour a day.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> almost certainly the nose powders. She's from very very old money, I don't think brown is hip with that set


That's what (the late) Baron Kelvedon thought


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Think about what anarchism is, and what it stands for and against.
> 
> Now, square the philosophy with your posts, and look for the gaps.


 
Sorry can you help me out here. Terribly thick here. Too much interbreeding you see. Got to keep it in the family.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

Philosophy of my posts?

Blimey.


----------



## JHE (Aug 21, 2013)

emanymton said:


> Looks like some interns are earning the equivalent of up top £45,000 a year.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/aug/21/bank-intern-death-working-hours


 

Leaving aside the very high rate of pay...

This story of the unfortunate young German who was working very long hours has made it into a number of papers, but from what I've seen it is not at all clear how much of a connection there was between long working hours and his death.  Maybe there was none.  Or maybe - just speculating here - the lad was taking drugs to help him cope with his ultra-demanding temp job and the drugs killed him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> who has done this?
> 
> not saying it's not happened but i'd have thought they'd go for the galloway/respect trajectory, there's also plenty of money in being some sort of liberal "anti imperialist" apologist for dodgy middle eastern regimes (israel's also one but you know what i mean)
> 
> the only famous anti zionist i can think who became a sort of zionist is christopher hitchens


 
Most famous example of pro-Pal one minute, Labour Friend of Israel the next is Jack Straw.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Don't be a plonker.


 
Don't be a disingenuous tossrag.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Me and my mate from school both got a First at university. She didn't have to work while studying. I had to have a weekend shop job throughout. She went on a one year internship after she graduated and her parents continued to support her. I went to work full-time in the shop because there were bills to pay and no-one who could afford to pay them for me. 15 years later she works for the Foreign Office. I'm still in a part-time shop job.


 
A fine example of "the Establishment" doing what the Establishment does best - perpetuating itself and its institutional preferences and prejudices.  Whether it does that by occasionally bringing on board a member of the lower orders or not (something often mentioned by advocates of "the system" to show that really it's nothing to do with institutional preferences) or not, it still operates a policy of exclusion toward people who're not "someone like me" in the eyes of the person doing the hiring.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Sorry can you help me out here. Terribly thick here. Too much interbreeding you see. Got to keep it in the family.


 
Keeping it in the family is "inbreeding", you twat. Interbreeding means widening your gene pool, inreeding means narrowing it.

Now, instead of coming the chippy wanker, why not try doing what I asked?  We both know you're capable of doing so, and we both know you're deliberately avoiding doing so.  What I don't know is *why*.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Philosophy of my posts?
> 
> Blimey.


 
Oh, and learn to read things properly rather than skimming. I didn't write anything about the philosophy *of* your posts.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Keeping it in the family is "inbreeding", you twat. Interbreeding means widening your gene pool, inreeding means narrowing it.
> 
> Now, instead of coming the chippy wanker, why not try doing what I asked? We both know you're capable of doing so, and we both know you're deliberately avoiding doing so. What I don't know is *why*.


 

Avoiding what? You've been mugged off by frillyaprons comments yesterday...I expected more from you...and not even bothered to read my words. Then slag me off for what some other cretin implied.

Well done.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I just got this email from the US campaign to end the occupation. On their website there's a link to this:
> 
> http://www.endtheoccupation.org/downloads/InternshipSpring2012.pdf
> 
> ...


 


> There is no doubt that cultural studies has attempted to further emancipatory social aims - socialist, feminist, anti-racist, anti-imperialist. Its intervention has been in those substantial, specified senses political. But it is romantic to go on thinking of cultural studies as an 'intervention'. It is now an instituted academic activity; and academic activity, whatever its intrinsic merits, is inevitably not the same thing as a political project. *What happens when an oppositional tendency becomes a budget holding discipline, offering credentials, careers, research funds? More or less what any realistic observer would expect.* No academic discipline may honourably or realistically apply political tests to its students and teachers. The day cannot be far off - indeed, it has probably arrived already - when the first real professionals of the discipline, trained in it and now pursuing it as a scholarly career, take their places in classrooms to give the introductory lecture on "subversion" or some other such routine syllabus heading.


 
From an essay by Francis Mulhearn called _The Politics of Cultural Studies._


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


>




That is magnificent.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Avoiding what? You've been mugged off by frillyaprons comments yesterday...


 
That's your assumption.  It's an inaccurate one.  The only point of his I paid any attention to was about your being an anarchist, which is what provoked my comments in the first place - can an anarchist, of whatever school, square even tacit support for a system of internship where the majority of the placements deprive people of paid work?



> I expected more from you...


 
Your expectations of me are meaningless, they're merely an attempt to make me feel guilty for daring to gainsay you. Psychology 101 doesn't work on me. 



> ...and not even bothered to read my words.


 
Oh, I read them.



> ...Then slag me off for what some other cretin implied.


 
And where exactly have I slagged you off? You'd have to possess an eggshell-thin ego to take anything I've posted as "slagging off".  I find the fact that you *always* respond to perceived criticism of you with a tedious formulaic barrage of whiny second-rate abuse rather interesting.  Did it used to work for you back at school or something?



> Well done.


 
You have been.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

Fuck right off. 

Let's go back to your initial accusations.

Can you back them up?

Can you?

No. You're a worse gobshite than me. So don't even try it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

You're not very good at this. Say something. Something with content. I dare/beg you.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You're not very good at this. Say something. Something with content. I dare/beg you.


 

Why don't you try and say something positive rather than sneer from a position of assumed knowledge of all things.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

To be fair that's better than screaming about how everyone's a cunt from a position of ignorance of all things.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> To be fair that's better than screaming about how everyone's a cunt from a position of ignorance of all things.


 

In this instance (  ) I've been landed with vague and weird accusations. I'm merely asking what exactly this accusations are. 

I'm totally in the right for defending myself.....in this instance.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> In this instance (  ) I've been landed with vague and weird accusations. I'm merely asking what exactly this accusations are.
> 
> I'm totally in the right for defending myself.....in this instance.


 
I think you're accused of getting all defensive and making things personal when someone tried to make a political point about internships.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think you're accused of getting all defensive and making things personal when someone tried to make a political point about internships.


the personal is political


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> the personal is political


 
Except for when it isn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> In this instance (   ) I've been landed with vague and weird accusations. I'm merely asking what exactly this accusations are.
> 
> I'm totally in the right for defending myself.....in this instance.


You are one twisted - and transparent - individual. I try to establish some facts about internship and you do your best RADA/yokel _you spilt my pint_ shit. Thus stopping pretty much all discussion beyond what an empty barn that you are. Go away, come back with some politics.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think you're accused of getting all defensive and making things personal when someone tried to make a political point about internships.


 

Nope. That was one faulty point from frillyapron. I've had weird and vague accusation from that Seventh Bullet and VP.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You are one twisted - and transparent - individual. I try to establish some facts about internship and you do your best RADA/yokel _you spilt my pint_ shit. Thus stopping pretty much all discussion beyond what an empty barn that you are. Go away, come back with some politics.


 

Fuck off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Except for when it isn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Nope. That was one faulty point from frillyapron. I've had weird and vague accusation from that Seventh Bullet and VP.


 




			
				me said:
			
		

> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 



			
				you said:
			
		

> My OH. Is there a problem?


 
Grow up.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 

You implication from this post was that if you're an intern you're privileged.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck off.


 
Why, am i going to get you sacked again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> You implication from this post was that if you're an intern you're privileged.


you have to be as no one who isn't can afford the poor rate of pay


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> You implication from this post was that if you're an intern you're privileged.


 
The implication was that the media concentration on iterns doesn't reflect my experience - it reflects theirs, those who work in the media, and given the clear evidence that the media is disproportionately private school dominated that there is a whole other world of exploitation that's not being discussed or covered. _The other interns_. Something _political_. Which you, being an apolitical dick, didn't recognise.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you have to be as no one who isn't can afford the poor rate of pay


 

How about if you've been working in a shop for years on a zero hour contract on shit wages? A paid internship even if badly paid would be a vast improvement in your circumstances. I totally agree this is the exception than the rule. But this is the case for my OH.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The implication was that the media concentration on iterns doesn't reflect my experience - it reflects theirs, those who work in the media, and given the clear evidence that the media is disproportionately private school dominated that there is a whole other world of exploitation that's not being discussed or covered. _The other interns_. Something _political_. Which you, being an apolitical dick, didn't recognise.


 

Fuck off.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck off.


 
No politics in the politics forum please dingdong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> How about if you've been working in a shop for years on a zero hour contract on shit wages? A paid internship even if badly paid would be a vast improvement in your circumstances. I totally agree this is the exception than the rule.


i agree it is the exception rather than the rule so let's move away from your post.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck off.


 
have the workers taken over Firebox with your help yet?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck right off.
> 
> Let's go back to your initial accusations.
> 
> ...


 
What accusations?
All you've done so far is gibber inanely about the wrongs done to you. What wrongs?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> You implication from this post was that if you're an intern you're privileged.


 
Because, in relation to the rest of the labour force, you are.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because, in relation to the rest of the labour force, you are.


 

Me?

I don't think so.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Me?
> 
> I don't think so.


 

I'm precariously employed. I'm not an intern nor have I ever been.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Me?
> 
> I don't think so.


 
Did you spill my gf's pint? Say something vessel.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> How about if you've been working in a shop for years on a zero hour contract on shit wages? A paid internship even if badly paid would be a vast improvement in your circumstances. I totally agree this is the exception than the rule. But this is the case for my OH.


 
And yet you seem to expect people to amend their viewpoint on the institution of internships because of the exception to the rule - "DrRingDing's OH's internship is okay, so the rest of them can't be *that* bad" - despite the fact that, as I said earlier, around 85% of them are unpaid, and therefore the purview of those who can afford to not be paid for their work.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> I'm precariously employed. I'm not an intern nor have I ever been.


 
Cunningly using the lastest log-in to reply to yourself? 

You are a danger and an embarrassment stoaty.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

If you mean an unpaid intern then you must be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Me?
> 
> I don't think so.


 
"You" meaning "an intern", you disingenuous twat. You are, after all, the person who first couched this as "you", in the post I replied to.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet you seem to expect people to amend their viewpoint on the institution of internships because of the exception to the rule - "DrRingDing's OH's internship is okay, so the rest of them can't be *that* bad" - despite the fact that, as I said earlier, around 85% of them are unpaid, and therefore the purview of those who can afford to not be paid for their work.


 

I'm not expecting or attempting to change anyone's view apart the view that all internships are unpaid.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> If you mean an unpaid intern then you must be.


 
Carry on.

You _actually_ said that. What is wrong with you?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> "You" meaning "an intern", you disingenuous twat. You are, after all, the person who first couched this as "you", in the post I replied to.


 

Have a cup of tea and a biccy and calm yourself down. It'll be tea time soon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> have the workers taken over Firebox with your help yet?


 
They're still not unionised, but they apparently get free copies of _Socialist Worker_, so at least they're not short of arse-wiping material.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Have a cup of tea and a biccy and calm yourself down. It'll be tea time soon.


 
I'm perfectly calm.  You need to stop projecting your own state onto others.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

They get the only version of fen class war. His mums printer ran out of ink at 15 so these are rare.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Carry on.


 

As has already has been said unpaid interns roles rule out the vast majority of people from the position.

The link frogwoman referred to is little more tricky as they may genuinely have fuck all resources. Unlike a lot of charities that use interns.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They get the only version of fen class war. His mums printer ran out of ink at 15 so these are rare.


 



We did alright to be fair.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> As has already has been said unpaid interns roles rule out the vast majority of people from the position.
> 
> The link frogwoman referred to is little more tricky as they may genuinely have fuck all resources. Unlike a lot of charities that use interns.


 
What? Was that you saying something political? Are you saying interns are elitists?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What? Was that you saying something political? Are you saying interns are elitists?


 

Unpaid interns.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Unpaid interns.


 
They are elitist? Amazing what politics can do.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 21, 2013)

JHE said:


> Leaving aside the very high rate of pay...
> 
> This story of the unfortunate young German who was working very long hours has made it into a number of papers, but from what I've seen it is not at all clear how much of a connection there was between long working hours and his death.  Maybe there was none.  Or maybe - just speculating here - the lad was taking drugs to help him cope with his ultra-demanding temp job and the drugs killed him.


Yes I noticed that as well. If you work out the hourly rate the pay isn't all that great, but of course it  leads to higher pay in the future. 

I don't want to be dismissive of this blokes death, but what about all the people stuck working long hours for low pay all their lives. How many of them are dying each day? But of course that's not real work with real stress is it? 

As BA said the media has a bee it's bonnet over interns because it is what they know, it's what affects them.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They are elitist? Amazing what politics can do.


 

_Unpaid interns. _Nice try. Interns are just office based apprenticeships. The term doesn't mean you won't get paid.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> _Unpaid interns. _Nice try. Interns are just office based apprenticeships. The term doesn't mean you won't get paid.


 
Almost like you're grasping towards a point, the point of this discussion - or you could just go to nepal and come back talking about the centrality of mountain based maoist armies to the UK in...what year was it?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

The well known charity I'm currently working for uses a lot of unpaid interns. This is not a poor organisation either.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> _Unpaid interns. _Nice try. Interns are just office based apprenticeships. The term doesn't mean you won't get paid.


 
Nice try at what? What did i try to trick you on?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> The well known charity I'm currently working for uses a lot of unpaid interns. This is not a poor organisation either.


 
And? Can you tie that up to some political point? One that also explains why me seeking to do so got your RADA act last night?


----------



## JimW (Aug 21, 2013)

emanymton said:


> ... How many of them are dying each day?...


 
And that includes dying far earlier than you should have maybe a years after you left the job that fucked your health. Not seen as very newsworthy.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Almost like you're grasping towards a point, the point of this discussion - or you could just go to nepal and come back talking about the centrality of mountain based maoist armies to the UK in...what year was it?


 

I never once argued that Nepali maoism should be used here. Fuck sake 

I supported the cadre fighting the horrific poverty and oppression. And I still do.

I also dismissed the maoist leaders.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

JimW said:


> And that includes dying far earlier than you should have maybe a years after you left the job that fucked your health. Not seen as very newsworthy.


 
And in worse conditions, without able to have something as basic and comforting as proper shave, add on each little thing we do without each day


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> I never once argued that Nepali maoism should be used here. Fuck sake
> 
> I supported the cadre fighting the horrific poverty and oppression. And I still do.
> 
> I also dismissed the maoist leaders.


 

I also had to explain to some of the maoists while in their stronghold I wasn't a maoist but supported them.

That soured the atmosphere for a bit.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> I never once argued that Nepali maoism should be used here. Fuck sake
> 
> I supported the cadre fighting the horrific poverty and oppression. And I still do.
> 
> I also dismissed the maoist leaders.


 
No you didn't. You shat yourself and said we all should. At least you said something political that time.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Aug 21, 2013)

Good to see this thread continuing to deliver the high quality insights and analysis we've all come to expect from this place.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Good to see this thread continuing to deliver the high quality insights and analysis we've all come to expect from this place.


 
And the sun shines down once more. Tell us how to do your mad obsessed stuff _properly_ delroy.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 21, 2013)

emanymton said:


> Looks like some interns are earning the equivalent of up top £45,000 a year.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/aug/21/bank-intern-death-working-hours


 
i thought interns were unpaid or paid a shit wage. If their getting paid 45k that's not an internship that's a job isnt it?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> As has already has been said unpaid interns roles rule out the vast majority of people from the position.
> 
> The link frogwoman referred to is little more tricky as they may genuinely have fuck all resources. Unlike a lot of charities that use interns.


 
to be honest if it's recognised by major universities to be part of the degree and to count towards it then i wouldn't call that "fuck all resources"

it's a pathway into a career in an activist/academic milieu - it's not just about the financial aspect, and also the fact that they're putting on annual conferences and that sort of time suggests they're not that short of finance either


----------



## Sue (Aug 21, 2013)

And when did 'intern' even enter common usage here? What happened to 'work experience'? Or is using 'intern' an admission it's not work experience, it's a proper job even if you probably aren't getting paid for it? '(Imagine slave labour' is seen as being a bit too descriptive...)


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> From an essay by Francis Mulhearn called _The Politics of Cultural Studies._


 
Do you have the link to that mate?


----------



## emanymton (Aug 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i thought interns were unpaid or paid a shit wage. If their getting paid 45k that's not an internship that's a job isnt it?


If I am reading it correctly he was only there for a few months over the summer. 

If you work it out, assuming 15 hours a day, 6 days a week the hourly rate is about £9.60. Not a terrible wage, but a long way from the top pay levels.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 21, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Good to see this thread continuing to deliver the high quality insights and analysis we've all come to expect from this place.


 
Salford.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Good to see this thread continuing to deliver the high quality insights and analysis we've all come to expect from this place.


 
Last seen: reading posting and twittering about 'this place.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 21, 2013)

Sue said:


> And when did 'intern' even enter common usage here? What happened to 'work experience'? Or is using 'intern' an admission it's not work experience, it's a proper job even if you probably aren't getting paid for it? '(Imagine slave labour' is seen as being a bit too descriptive...)


Good point. I guess the two terms do mean something different to me.

'Work experience' is what a lot of us did at school when we were 15-16. I don't remember exactly when, but I did one week's work experience I think when I was in 6th form. (Archaeology dig, where they took us down the pub every lunchtime. ) 'Work experience' also means to me the kind of thing where teenagers get to work a few hours a week in a shop for nothing as part of some scheme for the disadvantaged.

Intern implies something much longer-term - months long, rather than days. And it also implies some kind of competition for places. Totally agree that it works in effect as a way of transmitting privilege in the kinds of industries where the idea of a paid apprenticeship either has never or no longer exists.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Do you have the link to that mate?


 
I'm afraid not - if it is online anywhere I've not been able to find it. It's in a collection of essays called _In Defense of History: Marxism and the Postmodern Agenda_ that I bought off amazon. I'll post it to you when I've finished it if you want though - it's really good, edited by Ellen Meiksins-Wood.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> From an essay by Francis Mulhearn called _The Politics of Cultural Studies._


 
1) it's MULHERN 

2) it was published in vol 47 issue 3 of 'monthly review', 1995, which should be commonly available to students, librarians, academicks and their friends.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 21, 2013)

Fuck off pedant 

My uni doesn't seem to have a proper subscription to monthly review - you can only get the free stuff - so I can't download it. Does someone kind want to do it? There's a good essay my Kenan Malik in the collection too - _Mirror of Race: Postmodernism and the Celebration of Difference - _dunno if that's from monthly review as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Fuck off pedant
> 
> My uni doesn't seem to have a proper subscription to monthly review - you can only get the free stuff - so I can't download it. Does someone kind want to do it? There's a good essay my Kenan Malik in the collection too - _Mirror of Race: Postmodernism and the Celebration of Difference - _dunno if that's from monthly review as well?


 
the british library document supply people have a copy of it therefore it can be easily acquired on interlibrary loan


----------



## Sue (Aug 21, 2013)

On R4 now:

Summer NightsWhat's the Point of an Elite?
Evan Davis asks why our elites are so resilient and what purpose they serve.

All bar one (an American) of the panellists went to private/public schools and all apart from Fraser Nelson and the American to Oxbridge. The panel of course, are talking about 'the elite' as the other. 

ETA: Sorry, Maurice Glasman went to a comprehensive -- he mumbled something or other so looked him up to check.

ETA2 Oh God, it's absolutely appalling. Should be compulsory listening for everyone posting on this thread... (Baggsy first shot at Fraser Nelson when he's up against the wall.)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2013)

Helen Lewis-Hasteley - uniting intersectionalistas in hate, it seems:

http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/58945967745/tumblr_mrwgk8ptIu1rpijql


----------



## yield (Aug 22, 2013)

Sue said:


> ETA2 Oh God, it's absolutely appalling. Should be compulsory listening for everyone posting on this thread...


Fraser Nelson was the worst but only just.


----------



## Sue (Aug 22, 2013)

yield said:


> Fraser Nelson was the worst but only just.


 
Is it just me or was it utterly bizarre that they were talking about the elite like *they weren't* the elite?


----------



## yield (Aug 22, 2013)

Sue said:


> Is it just me or was it utterly bizarre that they were talking about the elite like *they weren't* the elite?


Evan Davis saying that they'd not mentioned Oxbridge near the end? A weird cosy little chat. Complete lack of self awareness.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 22, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Helen Lewis-Hasteley - uniting intersectionalistas in hate, it seems:
> 
> http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/58945967745/tumblr_mrwgk8ptIu1rpijql


 
On the front page of her blog, this quote from her appears:


*“The challenge is to make online abuse as despised as racism at football matches.”*​ 
— _Being optimistic about Twitter, rape threats and internet sexism in the Financial Times. _​​​...equating herself with a victim of racism because she got some strong criticism of her blog posts. Stay classy.​


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

yield said:


> Evan Davis saying that they'd not mentioned Oxbridge near the end? A weird cosy little chat. Complete lack of self awareness.



Evan Davis makes me want to kill. I've given up on Radio 4 as general background listening a while ago.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No you didn't. You shat yourself and said we all should. At least you said something political that time.


 
When did I shit myself?

When I shit myself? The bit when I worked and saved to go to Nepal to go do a little something. Maybe I should stayed on the Internet and said something political.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 22, 2013)

Sue said:


> On R4 now:
> 
> Summer NightsWhat's the Point of an Elite?
> Evan Davis asks why our elites are so resilient and what purpose they serve.
> ...


 
It's here if anyone wants to torture themselves.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 22, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> On the front page of her blog, this quote from her appears:
> 
> 
> *“The challenge is to make online abuse as despised as racism at football matches.”*
> ...


 

Rape threats are pretty serious even if it is online.

Obviously there is a lot of online misogyny, it's an easy channel for every kind of unreflective response and posting that relies on anger, self-righteousness and hate seems particularly addictive. Personally, I wouldn't have thought twitter was a space worth defending, my reaction is why fucking bother? but obviously other women disagree and if you're a journalist then it's part of your job.ccccccccc`1q

ETA: I wasn't going to post that but it seems I did. Maybe it was the cat.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 22, 2013)

Tempting offer from LP:
https://twitter.com/pennyred/status/370482127907069952


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Tempting offer from LP:
> https://twitter.com/pennyred/status/370482127907069952


she's quite happy to discriminate against people on the basis of access to the internet i see.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Maybe I should stayed on the Internet and said something political.


maybe you should have kept quiet


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 22, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> Rape threats are pretty serious even if it is online.
> 
> Obviously there is a lot of online misogyny, it's an easy channel for every kind of unreflective response and posting that relies on anger, self-righteousness and hate seems particularly addictive. Personally, I wouldn't have thought twitter was a space worth defending, my reaction is why fucking bother? but obviously other women disagree and if you're a journalist then it's part of your job.ccccccccc`1q
> 
> ETA: I wasn't going to post that but it seems I did. Maybe it was the cat.


 
I agree with you. I didn't see any personal threats on the twitter timeline she posted, just strong criticism of her blog post. But I'm sure she must have had that kind of thing before and it is, as you say, pretty serious. 
What got to me was the gross lack of self awareness. The criticism is because she wrote about the work of a black, female blogger and said she was 'everything wrong with modern feminism'. Some people on twitter have noticed that when she's of a mind to police feminism, Ms Lewis seems to go in for criticising black writers (shades of Hugo Schwyzer). In that context, explicitly linking herself to anti-racist struggle seemed to me incredibly crass. But that's the Oxbridge brass neck for you.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Tempting offer from LP:
> https://twitter.com/pennyred/status/370482127907069952


 



> My ebook, #cybersexism, is out today. Can't afford 1.50? Email me (on website) and you can have it in exchange for short review of any kind.


 
Of any kind? 

Any offers?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> _Unpaid interns. _Nice try. Interns are just office based apprenticeships. The term doesn't mean you won't get paid.


 
Bit derogatory to apprenticeships, given that what internships generally are, are *work trials* in shape and duration, where the putative employer gets to assess your "fit" to their company without any of the responsibilities and obligations that an apprenticeship places on employers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> The well known charity I'm currently working for uses a lot of unpaid interns. This is not a poor organisation either.


 
And the risk of becoming poor is significantly lessened if you can gull people into voluntary labour (in the case of interns) and/or act as part of a government scheme that coerces labour from people who are "out of work".


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit derogatory to apprenticeships, given that what internships generally are, are *work trials* in shape and duration, where the putative employer gets to assess your "fit" to their company without any of the responsibilities and obligations that an apprenticeship places on employers.


 



> An *internship* is a method of on-the-job training for white-collar and professional careers.[1][2] Internships for professional careers are similar to apprenticeships for trade and vocational jobs.


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

Sue said:


> And when did 'intern' even enter common usage here? What happened to 'work experience'? Or is using 'intern' an admission it's not work experience, it's a proper job even if you probably aren't getting paid for it? '(Imagine slave labour' is seen as being a bit too descriptive...)


 
"Intern" is a construction that allows exploiter and exploited to feel better about their relationship - the business (as ever!) feels that they're doing you a favour, letting you work for nowt, and the (almost always unpaid) person volunteering their time in the hope of eventual employment can kid themselves that they're not either a sap being gulled by capitalism or a goon marking time until their social capital helps make a place available to them, that *they* are gaming the system rather than the system gaming them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship


 
An apprenticeship is a multi-year *contractual* commitment between parties that exchanges labour for training and remuneration, and imposes *specific* obligations on both parties.
An internship has few contractual commitments, is almost always of a year or less duration (to skirt employment law), and is more often than not has no remuneration beyond expenses incurred - sometimes not even that.

Hardly the same, despite what the fuckwit's encyclopedia says.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> An apprenticeship is a multi-year *contractual* commitment between parties that exchanges labour for training and remuneration, and imposes *specific* obligations on both parties.
> An internship has few contractual commitments, is almost always of a year or less duration (to skirt employment law), and is more often than not has no remuneration beyond expenses incurred - sometimes not even that.
> 
> Hardly the same, despite what the fuckwit's encyclopedia says.


 

To be fair they're both far from desirable. I'm not necessarily saying internships are a good thing even paid ones.


----------



## cesare (Aug 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> An apprenticeship is a multi-year *contractual* commitment between parties that exchanges labour for training and remuneration, and imposes *specific* obligations on both parties.
> An internship has few contractual commitments, is almost always of a year or less duration (to skirt employment law), and is more often than not has no remuneration beyond expenses incurred - sometimes not even that.
> 
> Hardly the same, despite what the fuckwit's encyclopedia says.


It can't skirt all employment law by making it less than one (or two years' since last April) duration - for example it can't skirt NMW legislation. Trouble with that, though, is that interns would have to lodge a claim to get a ruling. Hardly any of them do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> To be fair they're both far from desirable. I'm not necessarily saying internships are a good thing even paid ones.


I don't think apprenticeships - proper structured ones that lead to real skills and qualifications - are far from desirable.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think apprenticeships - proper structured ones that lead to real skills and qualifications - are far from desirable.


 

Still exploitative.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Still exploitative.


what isn't?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> When did I shit myself?
> 
> When I shit myself? The bit when I worked and saved to go to Nepal *to go do a little something.* Maybe I should stayed on the Internet and said something political.


 
Go _and_ do a little something.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Still exploitative.


Not as exploitative as what is replacing them - having to go to college and take out a massive loan to pay for it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not as exploitative as what is replacing them - having to go to college and take out a massive loan to pay for it.


 

Indeed.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> what isn't?


 

Those lucky enough to be part of a decent workers coop.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Those lucky enough to be part of a decent workers coop.


but they are still being exploited.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> but they are still being exploited.


 

In the greater scheme of things, yes.


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> An apprenticeship is a multi-year *contractual* commitment between parties that exchanges labour for training and remuneration, and imposes *specific* obligations on both parties.
> An internship has few contractual commitments, is almost always of a year or less duration (to skirt employment law), and is more often than not has no remuneration beyond expenses incurred - sometimes not even that.
> 
> Hardly the same, despite what the fuckwit's encyclopedia says.



You'd hope so. There are a number of so called apprenticeships being advertised for things like customer service. Paying of course, significantly less than minimum wage. A cousin of mine, recently left school,  is doing an office based apprenticeship.

Blatent piss taking.


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> It can't skirt all employment law by making it less than one (or two years' since last April) duration - for example it can't skirt NMW legislation. Trouble with that, though, is that interns would have to lodge a claim to get a ruling. Hardly any of them do.



If the apprenticeship lasts for the requisite amount of time, the employer can pay less than minimum wage though right?


----------



## cesare (Aug 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> If the apprenticeship lasts for the requisite amount of time, the employer can pay less than minimum wage though right?


I was talking about interns there. But for apprenticeships there's a specific NMW rate: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

For interns, if it's actually a proper job just badged as an internship, NMW rates apply. More info here: https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 22, 2013)

> *Phil Chamberlain* ‏@*philchamberlain*
> @*RedPeppermag*: Glad to see the @*phonecoop* is a Living Wage Employer: http://www.redpepper.org.uk/10-ways-to-support-red-pepper/ … <Has Red Pepper started paying freelancers?
> 1:43 PM - 22 Aug 13


 
https://twitter.com/philchamberlain/status/370526638582534144

LOLETC


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> I was talking about interns there. But for apprenticeships there's a specific NMW rate: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates


 
£2.65?! Fuck.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> If the apprenticeship lasts for the requisite amount of time, the employer can pay less than minimum wage though right?


Not quite.



> *Pay and right to minimum wage*
> 
> Apprentices are paid from the first day of their apprenticeship and they’re entitled to the National Minimum Wage.
> The current minimum wage rate for an apprentice is £2.65 per hour. This rate applies to apprentices aged 16 to 18 and those aged 19 or over who are in their first year.
> Apprentices aged 19 or over who have completed their first year must be paid at least the minimum wage rate for their age.


 
So over 19 or over and in second year or later, minimum wage applies. First year, whatever your age, it's £2.65, but you are paid for the days you spend on training courses.


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks. So an 18 YO on an "apprenticeship" is being paid the minimum wage. It's a lower minimum.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 22, 2013)

Yes, and an any-year-old in their first year is on the lower minimum.


----------



## cesare (Aug 22, 2013)

That's a minimum for employers to pay though, not a target.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> Thanks. So an 18 YO on an "apprenticeship" is being paid the minimum wage. It's a lower minimum.


you didn't read his post. you missed the bit where he said 





> So over 19 or over and in second year or later


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you didn't read his post. you missed the bit where he said



I took note but had my cousin in mind when replying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> I took note but had my cousin in mind when replying.


your cousin would have done a better job


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> your cousin would have done a better job



A better job of replying, presumably? That makes no sense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> A better job of replying, presumably? That makes no sense.


of keeping focussed on the matter at hand and not veering off at a tangent.


----------



## xenon (Aug 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> of keeping focussed on the matter at hand and not veering off at a tangent.



I can not comment on their ability to remain focussed on a select area of the issue at hand, unsure how you can assess same either.

That is the last I'll say relating to this dull aside.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> I can not comment on their ability to remain focussed on a select area of the issue at hand, unsure how you can assess same either.


it can't be worse than your wandering attention.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 22, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> I agree with you. I didn't see any personal threats on the twitter timeline she posted, just strong criticism of her blog post. But I'm sure she must have had that kind of thing before and it is, as you say, pretty serious.
> What got to me was the gross lack of self awareness. The criticism is because she wrote about the work of a black, female blogger and said she was 'everything wrong with modern feminism'. Some people on twitter have noticed that when she's of a mind to police feminism, Ms Lewis seems to go in for criticising black writers (shades of Hugo Schwyzer). In that context, explicitly linking herself to anti-racist struggle seemed to me incredibly crass. But that's the Oxbridge brass neck for you.


 

Sorry, I shouldn't have commented as I don't really know who she is other than that she's an Oxbridge educated writer, who uses twitter, and then writes about what she writes on twitter.....

I know she's not talking about unpaid labour in the home and its role in capitalism, none of them talk about that do they?


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 22, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> Sorry, I shouldn't have commented as I don't really know who she is other than that she's an Oxbridge educated writer, who uses twitter, and then writes about what she writes on twitter.....
> 
> I know she's not talking about unpaid labour in the home and its role in capitalism, none of them talk about that do they?


 
I think you just summed her up quite pithily actually not sure there's more to know..

And no, not really.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.


 
We have one in our department at work. We're trying to get her paid but as she's there because of her family connections rather than because of an official opportunity, she's basically off the books. Which I hate, and can do very little about.

My boss has made sure she gets her travel expenses, and we don't insist she works a full week. We're also buying her software while she's here, so she'll get some decent stuff for her degree course (she's going back to uni soon).


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 22, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> I agree with you. I didn't see any personal threats on the twitter timeline she posted, just strong criticism of her blog post. But I'm sure she must have had that kind of thing before and it is, as you say, pretty serious.
> What got to me was the gross lack of self awareness. The criticism is because she wrote about the work of a black, female blogger and said she was 'everything wrong with modern feminism'. Some people on twitter have noticed that when she's of a mind to police feminism, Ms Lewis seems to go in for criticising black writers (shades of Hugo Schwyzer). In that context, explicitly linking herself to anti-racist struggle seemed to me incredibly crass. But that's the Oxbridge brass neck for you.


 
I think you are being much too generous about the "strong criticism of her blog post" here. I've always assumed - on the basis largely of her New Statesman job and not any actual investigation - that Lewis is a useless liberal, but that doesn't make the kind of response she got even slightly reasonable. No, I didn't see any direct physical threats (although I only scanned through part of the vast pile of vitriolic responses), but a very high percentage of the responses either directly called her a racist or insinuated that she's a racist on the basis that she criticised a blog post by a "Woman of Colour". Even though the criticism had no particular connection to race in the first place. That's so unreasonable it's actually quite funny. Or at least its funny from the outside - it probably isn't so amusing when you are on the receiving end.

The twitter intersectionalists have not just adopted the ad hominem argument, they've made it into a central political principle.


----------



## JHE (Aug 22, 2013)

Screaming _Ray Cyst_ at whatever you dislike is also standard on Urban75. Twitter twits and intersectionalist sects didn't invent it. They are just following the example set by the remnants of the left, the shouty failed Trots and the tedious brow-beating failed Anarcho-Wotsits.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2013)

Aw, is everyone picking on little juan? And all he did was spend 10 years one here posting racist shite.


----------



## free spirit (Aug 23, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> £2.65?! Fuck.


 
we're paying our apprentice JIB rates



> At College​At work​Apprentice (Stage 4)
> £9.07​£10.00​Apprentice (Stage 3)
> £8.53​£9.30​Apprentice (Stage 2)
> £5.84​£6.50​Apprentice (Stage 1)
> £4.05​£4.60​


though we've skipped stage 1 given that he's 20 and has proven himself as a decent worker.

can't see any justification for paying anyone £2.65 an hour, the JIB rates are much more realistic, and must massively increase the chances the apprentice and employer will take it seriously rather than just viewing apprenticeships as a source of a cheap skivvy for as long as they'll stick it while being paid peanuts.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 23, 2013)

JHE said:


> Screaming _Ray Cyst_ at whatever you dislike is also standard on Urban75. Twitter twits and intersectionalist sects didn't invent it. They are just following the example set by the remnants of the left, the shouty failed Trots and the tedious brow-beating failed Anarcho-Wotsits.


 
Fuck off.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 23, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I think you are being much too generous about the "strong criticism of her blog post" here. I've always assumed - on the basis largely of her New Statesman job and not any actual investigation - that Lewis is a useless liberal, but that doesn't make the kind of response she got even slightly reasonable. No, I didn't see any direct physical threats (although I only scanned through part of the vast pile of vitriolic responses), but a very high percentage of the responses either directly called her a racist or insinuated that she's a racist on the basis that she criticised a blog post by a "Woman of Colour". Even though the criticism had no particular connection to race in the first place. That's so unreasonable it's actually quite funny. Or at least its funny from the outside - it probably isn't so amusing when you are on the receiving end.
> 
> The twitter intersectionalists have not just adopted the ad hominem argument, they've made it into a central political principle.


 
Maybe I am being too generous about that Nigel, I dunno. I don't use twitter at all so I'm feeling my way a bit here. But looking at Helen Lewis's post 'this is what it's like to get twitterstormed', I got half way down and it was all criticism of her previous blog where she takes to task someone who runs a much smaller blog than the New Statesman for being 'everything wrong with a certain strand of Feminism'. A bit before half way down someone called 'one woman wimmin mob' says "We all agree that Helen Lewis is a racist, transphobic bigot, right? Oh Hale Yes!!!" (I like the southern accent there, got to say). Otherwise it's mostly about her argument being shit. Now, my understanding (and I could be wrong correct me if so) is that there is some previous here between Lewis and some of these on twitter. Helen Lewis criticises lower circulation, less powerful bloggers than herself and holds them up for ridicule in front of her many followers (her 'thing' seems to be that everything must be very simple - 'footnote-heavy' and 'technical' are criticisms in H.L's world - which is odd as she went to Oxford and the people she is criticising didn't - perhaps that explains her patronising attitude to the hoi polloi). She  Gets a mixture of critique and abuse back. Ignores the critique, writes a 'poor me' blog about the abuse, and compares herself to a victim of racism. So happens that the bloggers she's been picking on are black, and they notice this pattern. They also notice that the broadsheet gang all jump to H.L's defence pretty quickly by twittering their support and alerting their followers. To and fro ensues. Bottom line I don't think it's as simple as you are making it out to be.

What have we learned? Fucked if I know. And I'm no friend of the current intersectionalists, their politics are terrible.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2013)

JHE said:


> Screaming _Ray Cyst_ at whatever you dislike is also standard on Urban75. Twitter twits and intersectionalist sects didn't invent it. They are just following the example set by the remnants of the left, the shouty failed Trots and the tedious brow-beating failed Anarcho-Wotsits.


 
I wouldn't call *you* a racist.

You're more of a xenophobic wanker, frankly.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2013)

Laurie needs help with her homework, part 2,781:

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/371235176832983040


----------



## 8115 (Aug 24, 2013)

The apprentice thing, I think the wages have to strike a balance between reflecting that it's not work, it is training and should be of high quality, and the fact that the apprentice is obviously working hard.

My worry is, if the wages are higher, employers will neglect the training obligation part of it, which is fairly significant (we have an apprentice at our work and she has a lot of content to study and learn). Also they might not take on people who need that bit of extra help and support, because they don't see it as worth it, and I have a feeling that it's these people who apprenticeships might be really transforming for.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 24, 2013)

saw this pile of shit in blackwell's bookshop in oxford the other day for over a tenner. I generally find world war 2 themed comedy/downfall parodies etc hilarious but a 12 year old could probably have come up with better humour and some of the cartoons are really pretty offensive.

that, and it's also designed by hipsters


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't think it's entirely without merit.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 24, 2013)

I have Laurie's new book, anyone want it?


----------



## JimW (Aug 24, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I have Laurie's new book, anyone want it?


 
This table hardly wobbles at all, but thanks anyway.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> This table hardly wobbles at all, but thanks anyway.


 
LOL of the week.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 25, 2013)

what's that one J Ed? 

is it "discordia" or the one about online trolls?


----------



## BigTom (Aug 25, 2013)

I did a month long internship with some foreign policy think tank in between the first and second year of uni. Wasn't an advertised one, it happened because the person who became director a couple of months before had been more or less brought up by my grandparents.
The main lessons I learnt there was that if that was a world you wanted to be part of it was all about networking and using your personal connections, and that internships were a huge part of starting that process.
The other thing I learnt was that it wasn't a world I wanted to be part of.

As has been said, internships are a way of ensuring that certain sectors remain almost exclusively middle/upper class in composition and is a way of the elite replicating itself.

Used a lot in film/tv where you basically have to work unpaid as a runner to meet the people that will give you paid work somewhere down the line. BECTU do a lot of good work getting these people paid nmw.
Of course if you went to the right school/uni then you don't need to do it, but if you didn't then you do, still have to have money to live through it though so still pretty exclusively middle class


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I have Laurie's new book, anyone want it?


 

ran out of loo paper?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 25, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> what's that one J Ed?
> 
> is it "discordia" or the one about online trolls?


 

The online ebook that she was giving out about online trolls, there's nothing about this hive of misogyny strangely...


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 25, 2013)

what? nothing about this place- but we are all massive racists and rape apologists! must not be trying hard enough


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 25, 2013)

Any chance of a review, J Ed?


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 26, 2013)

J Ed said:


> The online ebook that she was giving out about online trolls, there's nothing about this hive of misogyny strangely...





DotCommunist said:


> what? nothing about this place- but we are all massive racists and rape apologists! must not be trying hard enough


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 26, 2013)

As Laurie Penny's arch nemesis and all round racist misogynist type, If I'm not in it I'm gonna moan about it then write my own pro-troll version - class war to twitter war - a bit like what Joe Owens did when he found out he wasn't mentioned in No Retreat.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2013)

His book was out ages before that.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 26, 2013)

still relevant, twenty years on...


----------



## J Ed (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Any chance of a review, J Ed?


 

It's just a collection of anecdotes, very nasty comments made about Laurie Penny by misogynist BTL commentators and superficial observations made by other people about subject after subject. I don't think very much of it...


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 26, 2013)

J Ed said:


> It's just a collection of anecdotes, very nasty comments made about Laurie Penny by misogynist BTL commentators and superficial observations made by other people about subject after subject. I don't think very much of it...


 
Thanks!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> His book was out ages before that.


 
Really? Could have sworn he said something about it in the introduction - maybe I dreamed it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Really? Could have sworn he said something about it in the introduction - maybe I dreamed it.


 
His book came out in 2007 and BTF in 2010. His moan was about No Retreat. He does have a habit of searching for his name in relation to anti-fascism. I remember he turned up on matb after 39 steps (i think it was) posted his review of Race War TDW, and he's also been on here in the past.


----------



## love detective (Aug 27, 2013)

Spiney was talking about No Retreat though, not BTF!

He moaned about not being mentioned in No Retreat but he also claimed to have been mentioned in BTF several times prior to its publication, he was then dismayed to find out he wasn't mentioned at all once it was actually published


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

He must have edited that in the middle of the night.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 27, 2013)

It must have been sleep editing then


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 27, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> It must have been sleep editing then


...And sleep editing it to make it say exactly the same as it did originally.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 27, 2013)

Check out this incredibly poor article http://internationalsocialistnetwor...ow-sections-of-the-left-came-to-abandon-syria

Manages to criticise the left for not cheerleading the Syrian rebels without once mentioning Al-Nusrah, Al-Qaeda, massacres of Alawites (which it euphemistically refers to as "several sectarian attacks"), no mention of the "Alawites to the grave, Christians to Beirut" slogan. Russian imperialism? Absolutely bizarre. Doesn't mention the Kurds either. Willful deluson.


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 27, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Check out this incredibly poor article http://internationalsocialistnetwor...ow-sections-of-the-left-came-to-abandon-syria
> 
> Manages to criticise the left for not cheerleading the Syrian rebels without once mentioning Al-Nusrah, Al-Qaeda, massacres of Alawites (which it euphemistically refers to as "several sectarian attacks"), no mention of the "Alawites to the grave, Christians to Beirut" slogan. Russian imperialism? Absolutely bizarre. Doesn't mention the Kurds either. Willful deluson.


 Looks to me like a deliberate attempt to position themselves distinct from their former comrades, and to pick up support from the hand wringing something must be done brigade


----------



## Delroy Booth (Aug 27, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Looks to me like a deliberate attempt to position themselves distinct from their former comrades, and to pick up support from the hand wringing something must be done brigade


 
Maybe it's to win support from british Islamists?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 27, 2013)

Who knows, he may well actually believe what he is writing.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 28, 2013)

I know him and I suspect you probably do too J Ed quite a nice kid on a personal level but that article is appallingly bad!


----------



## caleb (Aug 30, 2013)

Seems the ISN line is anti-intervention but entirely pro-rebel - uncritically so.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 31, 2013)

Fatuous article here: http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-poli...many-bodies-buried-britains-moral-high-ground

...whatever happened to


 *Laurie PennyVerified account* ‏@*PennyRed* 18 Mar 11
Fucking yesss!!! #*arabrevolutions* #*thanksUN* #*solidarity*


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Fatuous article here: http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-poli...many-bodies-buried-britains-moral-high-ground
> 
> ...whatever happened to
> 
> ...


 

It's like stars in their eyes.

Tonight Matthew, I'm going to be a liberal interventionist... wait I mean an anti-imperialist voice of British yoof wait I mean...


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 31, 2013)

J Ed said:


> It's like stars in their eyes.
> 
> Tonight Matthew, I'm going to be a liberal interventionist... wait I mean an anti-imperialist voice of British yoof wait I mean...


 
Exactly! and Matthew embraces her and beams to camera "didn't she do well!" 

It's just dilettantism. And it's hardly surprising, as there are no actual politics in her article.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely that merely marks you as someone who likes watching cod-amiable buffoons on telly, while living in an anrcho-lifestylist bubble?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not been part of the anrcho-lifestylist bubble for a while, not since being expelled from the posh boys club 

Laurie penny has never said anything about me or my class. I don't think she ever will. There is on the other hand a surfeit of "class struggle" anarchists who are infinitely posher and more privileged than laurie penny who have never stopped telling me what it means to be working class.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2013)

Nice one said:


> not been part of the anrcho-lifestylist bubble for a while, not since being expelled from the posh boys club
> 
> Laurie penny has never said anything about me or my class. I don't think she ever will. There is on the other hand a surfeit of "class struggle" anarchists who are infinitely posher and more privileged than laurie penny who have never stopped telling me what it means to be working class.



Whether you accept what they tell you is up to you.
Personally I always used to use logic ("how does your 3 years of squatting while on a trust fund compare to my lifetime of poverty, Tarquin, how are you qualified to judge?") followed by a jab in the bread-basket if Tarquin came out with any anarcho-vanguardist crap or anything remotely patronising. 
And they were *always* Tarquins, not Jocastas.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 1, 2013)

i saw an intersectionalist diagram telling me which identities i need to respect,  that managed to completely miss out class and race but include otherkin.

in what world do these people live in where class and race oppression don't exist but pretending to be a dragon is a serious source of oppression that needs to be respected and adjusted for.  ffs.

if you think you're a dragon, and you're not 6, then you're either mentally ill, in which case you need help and support to stop thinking you're a dragon, or you're taking the piss out of peoples good nature and need a slap.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i saw an intersectionalist diagram telling me which identities i need to respect,  that managed to completely miss out class and race but include otherkin.
> 
> in what world do these people live in where class and race oppression don't exist but pretending to be a dragon is a serious source of oppression that needs to be respected and adjusted for.  ffs.
> 
> if you think you're a dragon, and you're not 6, then you're either mentally ill, in which case you need help and support to stop thinking you're a dragon, or you're taking the piss out of peoples good nature and need a slap.



otherkin can't actually be a thing though can it? I thought it was made up? Surely these people don't exist in real life outside the internet and perhaps D and D roleplays which have been taken a bit too far?


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

From Wikipedia



> Some otherkin (such as elvenkin) claim they are allergic to iron (and products of modern technology), whilst other otherkin (such as dragonkin) claim that having no allergies is a sign of being an otherkin.[6] Some otherkin also claim to be especially empathic and attuned to nature.[6] Some claim to be able to shapeshift mentally or astrally—meaning that they experience the sense of being in their particular form while not actually changing physically



Sounds to me like those dragonkin are oppressing the elvenkin. 

Quick someone tight a New Statesman article.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

http://www.otherkincommunity.net/

For the first time in my life I feel generally tempted to go trolling.

ETA: Although i suspect half the people on there will be trolls.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

emanymton said:


> From Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it sounds like these people  need help rather than intersectionaltiy


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> it sounds like these people  need help rather than intersectionaltiy


As el-ahrairah said some of these people need help, but I think most of them are just talking the piss/engaging in a bit of fantasy. A bit like live action roleplay I guess.


Course I could be wrong, in which case I fee bad for taking the piss.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

emanymton said:


> As el-ahrairah said some of these people need help, but I think most of them are just talking the piss/engaging in a bit of fantasy. A bit like live action roleplay I guess.
> 
> 
> Course I could be wrong, in which case I fee bad for taking the piss.


Maybe I am wrong, they have specific regulations about not role playing.

I need to step away from the laptop NOW!


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

emanymton said:


> Maybe I am wrong, they gave specific regulations about not role playing.
> 
> I need to step away from the laptop NOW!



give it a few weeks you'll be claiming to sprout wings and talking in language which would make tolkein cry


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2013)

fwiw, i know a lad who's a furry. he's ok, if a bit weird. it's just an odd kink though, not a mental illness. and he appreciates how ridiculous it is too...


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

but he wouldn't say he was oppressed would he?


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> give it a few weeks you'll be claiming to sprout wings and talking in language which would make tolkein cry


You saying I can't?


----------



## Nice one (Sep 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Whether you accept what they tell you is up to you.
> Personally I always used to use logic ("how does your 3 years of squatting while on a trust fund compare to my lifetime of poverty, Tarquin, how are you qualified to judge?") followed by a jab in the bread-basket if Tarquin came out with any anarcho-vanguardist crap or anything remotely patronising.
> And they were *always* Tarquins, not Jocastas.



good advice. Except they are usually called jack or james or john. They've all got 'web skills' and are not middle class but "economically working class", they mockney up their accents and pretend they never went to school...


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

i need to check my privilege dont i? bollocks


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> but he wouldn't say he was oppressed would he?


i doubt it. would you like me to ask him?


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> fwiw, i know a lad who's a furry. he's ok, if a bit weird. it's just an odd kink though, not a mental illness. and he appreciates how ridiculous it is too...


But these people don't just like dressing up as a cat or whatever, they believe they are (or where) cats or elves or dragons. Doesn't really seem to be a specifically sexual thing either.

I wonder if I could convince them I am the reincarnation of an orc. I always thought they represented the industrial working class in lord of the rings.


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2013)

actually, i do know a few women who claim to be fairies. they probably are a bit mental tbh. but again, i doubt they would consider themselves oppressed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2013)

Nice one said:


> good advice. Except they are usually called jack or james or john. They've all got 'web skills' and are not middle class but "economically working class", they mockney up their accents and pretend they never went to school...



The last time a Farquhar boasted to me about their web skills (early 2000s, I think) it turned out that what he meant was "I can put together a web page or site using a site-making programme".  He didn't have a clue what I meant when I asked him whether he put a commented out announcement of which iteration of HTML or XML he was using at the head of the page, or how to manually insert and position content within a page, just how to drag and drop stuff.  And yeah, I'm aware that it's a bit snobby of me to expect people to have known HTML.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> actually, i do know a few women who claim to be fairies. they probably are a bit mental tbh. but again, i doubt they would consider themselves oppressed.



You say "mental", I say "new-agey neo-Pagan with fairy-dust sprinkles on top".


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2013)

semantics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> give it a few weeks you'll be claiming to sprout wings and talking in language which would make tolkein cry


he already speaks in language which would make tolkein cry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> actually, i do know a few women who claim to be fairies. they probably are a bit mental tbh. but again, i doubt they would consider themselves oppressed.








a woman conversing with a fairy recently


----------



## emanymton (Sep 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> he already speaks in language which would make tolkein cry.


Yo saying me English not good


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2013)

Via FB FoFs I've learnt a few new notches for our wheel today:



> Vidaudism (how vidism and audism oppress deafblind folks, vidism[1] + audism = vidaudism) is real. Let's not say that the word isn't real.
> 
> [1] oppression of blind/low vision folks


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Via FB FoFs I've learnt a few new notches for our wheel today:



to be fair it must be really hard if you are both deaf and blind, i'm not sure that's entirely due to oppression though


----------



## J Ed (Sep 1, 2013)

Regarding articles on Syria seemingly free of any actual politics...

http://internationalsocialistnetwork.org/index.php/ideas-and-arguments/war-and-imperialism



> For over two years, Britain, the USA and France have stood by, refusing to deliver defensive anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons to the progressive and democratic components of the opposition, for fear that the toppling of the Assad regime may extend and deepen the revolution which started in Egypt and Tunisia in 2011. At the same time, they allowed Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states to support Islamist reactionary forces, in their attempt at transforming the Syrian revolution into a sectarian war. They know that the victory of the revolution in Syria could spread across the region constituting a major threat to their regimes.





> We continue oppose with the utmost determination any foreign direct military intervention in Syria, be it that of the USA, Britain, France and their allies or that of Iran and its allies. Those within the rebellion who support this are making a big mistake. We believe that the people of Syria should be enabled to free themselves from the Assad dictatorship. For their struggle to be successful, they should receive all the necessary material aid, including arms and humanitarian assistance, without conditions imposed by the West.



What? Does anyone actually understand this? This is so convoluted and odd... is their position actually that Britain, France and the US should be chastised for NOT backing (real or IMO to some extent imagined) democratic forces in Syria? This stuff is just so naive, how do people get to the point where they argue things like this? 

If you trust the US, Britain and France to arm factions within the opposition they favour (real or imagined in this article) why wouldn't you trust them to just do a bit of bombing themselves?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 1, 2013)

emanymton said:


> But these people don't just like dressing up as a cat or whatever, they believe they are (or where) cats or elves or dragons. Doesn't really seem to be a specifically sexual thing either.
> 
> I wonder if I could convince them I am the reincarnation of an orc. I always thought they represented the industrial working class in lord of the rings.




The Last Ringbearer


----------



## tar1984 (Sep 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i saw an intersectionalist diagram telling me which identities i need to respect,  that managed to completely miss out class and race but include otherkin.



A proper intersectionalist wheel of oppression has class and race as fundamental identity markers.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> he already speaks in language which would make tolkein cry.


Cannot resist pointing out typo


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Cannot resist pointing out typo



pickman's pedant detector will pick this up im sure


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> pickman's pedant detector will pick this up im sure


Especially after that missing apostrophe


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 2, 2013)

tar1984 said:


> A proper intersectionalist wheel of oppression has class and race as fundamental identity markers.



well, exactly.  but to some these things aren't important compared to self-created identities.


----------



## Disjecta Membra (Sep 2, 2013)

That otherkin site is hilarious, I'm gonna end up reading too much of it, just for lolz


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Regarding articles on Syria seemingly free of any actual politics...
> 
> http://internationalsocialistnetwork.org/index.php/ideas-and-arguments/war-and-imperialism
> 
> ...



They're all over the place. Are they fundraising for democratic forces in Syria? If so fair play to them, but imaging that the government here or in Washington has any interest in democratic forces or are an appropriate arbiter of who is best for Syria is laughable. The very last people you want picking winners are U.S, U.K or French governments - just look at their records!

On a side note, Peter Hitchens wrote a very good article on Syria at the weekend I thought.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...d-Cameron-vainglorious-fantasist-He-quit.html


----------



## J Ed (Sep 2, 2013)

I think that they've just been uncritically carrying the bags of Sunni Islamists for so long that they don't know when to stop.


----------



## Santino (Sep 2, 2013)

emanymton said:


> ETA: Although i suspect half the people on there will be trolls.


Not sure whether...


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 13, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Those lucky enough to be part of a decent workers coop.


lols


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Sep 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> The Last Ringbearer



Heh, looks interesting (more so than Laurie Penny et al for sure)


----------



## J Ed (Sep 14, 2013)

I'll just leave this here http://andynewman4labour.com/


----------



## caleb (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm just leaving this here:

http://laraweibgen.tumblr.com/post/61328495261/the-yes-and-no-lists-on-this-poster-were


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

I'll just leave this here:

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/class-and-power/


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 17, 2013)

caleb said:


> I'm just leaving this here:
> 
> http://laraweibgen.tumblr.com/post/61328495261/the-yes-and-no-lists-on-this-poster-were



why do they hate noam chomsky


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why do they hate noam chomsky


Heteronormative self-loathing Jewish universal grammar fascist cis bastard!!!!!! With a penis!!!!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

PENISN'T, DAMMIT


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2013)

caleb said:


> I'm just leaving this here:
> 
> http://laraweibgen.tumblr.com/post/61328495261/the-yes-and-no-lists-on-this-poster-were



I wouldn't wipe my cis cock on that list.  What a load of intersectionalist holier-than-thou self-pleasuring the compiler gives themselves. 

Fuck, but I hate try-hard right on types.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why do they hate noam chomsky



The Chomster has a beef bayonet.  Nuff said.

The fact that he's turned more people on to politics and the contemplation of the worthlessness of party politics is neither here nor there compared to the fact that he was born with a wanger.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The Chomster has a beef bayonet.  Nuff said.
> 
> The fact that he's turned more people on to politics and the contemplation of the worthlessness of party politics is neither here nor there compared to the fact that he was born with a wanger.



Lots of people like noam chomsky, there a few problems but he gets it bang on a lot of the time, a lot of the time he's been a big influence on people in getting them all into this stuff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'll just leave this here:
> 
> http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/class-and-power/



One can see why Mr. Bone is angered.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Lots of people like noam chomsky, there a few problems but he gets it bang on a lot of the time, a lot of the time he's been a big influence on people in getting them all into this stuff.



For the _intersectionalistas_ that'll never be enough, because his having a dick wipes out all the good he's done in the world.
Remember the axis, combabe!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't understand the picture. Which ones are supposed be 'No' and which ones are 'Yes'?  Their filing system is all fucked up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Remember the axes, combabe!



Corrected for you, cis bastard 



cynicaleconomy said:


> I don't understand the picture. Which ones are supposed be 'No' and which ones are 'Yes'?  Their filing system is all fucked up.



The 'No's are all the men at the top, the 'Yes'es are all the women, TGs/ISes etc below.


----------



## cesare (Sep 17, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why do they hate noam chomsky


I haven't read the link, but Chomsky's on dodgy ground with his Assange views iirc


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 17, 2013)

"pol pot" "rapists" "noam chomsky" 

err wtf


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> I haven't read the link, but Chomsky's on dodgy ground with his Assange views iirc



really?? didn't know that


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 17, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> The 'No's are all the men at the top, the 'Yes'es are all the women, TGs/ISes etc below.



Ahh, I see it now, cheers. Although even when it makes sense it doesn't make sense.


----------



## cesare (Sep 17, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> really?? didn't know that


Yep. Just google Chomsky Assange for loads of links


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 17, 2013)

Mainsplainers, Manarchists, Brosocialists, Macktivists.


----------



## love detective (Sep 17, 2013)

Mensheviks


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Although even when it makes sense it doesn't make sense.



Sensenormative wanker


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 17, 2013)

what about speciesism? shouldn't something be said about that


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 17, 2013)

love detective said:


> Mensheviks


Bollocksheviks


----------



## love detective (Sep 17, 2013)

good soldier svejks


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> what about speciesism? shouldn't something be said about that


 
It's bad m'kay.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 17, 2013)

naRODniks


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> naRODniks


----------



## caleb (Sep 17, 2013)

I called Rod Liddle a cunt during the student protests a few years ago. He was outside a pub down an alley in Westminster, haha.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


>



Fucking hell, what a miserable-looking cunt. He makes Jeff Bernard look like a light-hearted social butterfly.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 17, 2013)

I feel like brushing his hair.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 17, 2013)

Favelado said:


> I feel like brushing his hair.


His head-skin would come off with it, like a lecherous Leatherface.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 18, 2013)

Charlie Brooker once said that Rod Liddle looked like 'a failed Womble who's just been shaken awake in a shop doorway'


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2013)

Penny is on question time tmw


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2013)

why is it always the same rotating band of arseholes on QT.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 18, 2013)

Watching it is a total waste of time, yet half my twitter feed watch and conment on it as if they're shocked by the obvious stuff always said on it


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> why is it always the same rotating band of arseholes on QT.


Because this society is ran in their interests.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> why is it always the same rotating band of arseholes on QT.


because it's the last closed shop


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Watching it is a total waste of time, yet half my twitter feed watch and conment on it as if they're shocked by the obvious stuff always said on it



recommended for people suffering from low blood pressure though, so not a total loss


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Charlie Brooker once said that Rod Liddle looked like 'a failed Womble who's just been shaken awake in a shop doorway'


Bit unfair on the Wombles being compared with that cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Bit unfair on the Wombles being compared with that cunt.


i don't suppose you'd say the same thing about other comparisons, e.g. 'the wombles have better politics than rod liddle'; 'great uncle bulgaria has written more of note than rod liddle'; 'tobermory's a better shag than rod liddle says miss adelaide'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


>



Today IFLS is educating us about *Sex Pigs*.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 19, 2013)

On what grounds does Tory cunt and cheese-thief Anthony Worral-Thompson get to spout his reactionary shite on Question Time?

It sounds hideous - Ken Clarke, Harriet Harman, Shirley Williams, Laurie Pennie and that beardy twat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2013)

articul8 said:


> On what grounds does Tory cunt and cheese-thief Anthony Worral-Thompson get to spout his reactionary shite on Question Time?
> 
> It sounds hideous - Ken Clarke, Harriet Harman, Shirley Williams, Laurie Pennie and that beardy twat.


why do you care?


----------



## articul8 (Sep 19, 2013)

Because I have a habit of watching the damn thing


----------



## Greebo (Sep 19, 2013)

articul8 said:


> On what grounds does Tory cunt and cheese-thief Anthony Worral-Thompson get to spout his reactionary shite on Question Time?<snip>


Tokenism, he's the required ginger on a hideously white panel, innit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2013)

articul8 said:


> Because I have a habit of watching the damn thing


for year after year they have the same dull people on, the only thing which changes are the faces and the increasing age of dimbleby. nothing new happens there. there is nothing to gain from watching it. apparently it takes a month to break a habit: why not start breaking your habit today?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Tokenism, he's the required ginger on a hideously white panel, innit.


They should have asked me. It's not as if you need to know what you are talking about.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

QT is not a politics show, it's an entertainment show.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Bit unfair on the Wombles being compared with that cunt.



I just had a three minute-long vision of The Wombles singing "Remember You're A Wanker" to Rod Liddle, to the tune of "Remember You're A Womble".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2013)

articul8 said:


> On what grounds does Tory cunt and cheese-thief Anthony Worral-Thompson get to spout his reactionary shite on Question Time?
> 
> It sounds hideous - Ken Clarke, Harriet Harman, Shirley Williams, Laurie Pennie and that beardy twat.



Beardy reactionary right-wing twat, if you don't mind.  Perfect qualifications for being on QT.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Beardy reactionary right-wing twat, if you don't mind.  Perfect qualifications for being on QT.



Put next to Laurie Penny because how else can you get people like that to look competent?


----------



## Ole (Sep 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why do they hate noam chomsky


It's because they're absolute fucking hatstands, frogwoman.

HTH.


----------



## Sue (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> QT is not a politics show, it's an entertainment show.


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Put next to Laurie Penny because how else can you get people like that to look competent?


 

Laura makes the big time...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 19, 2013)

treelover said:


> Laura makes the big time...



Thought she was wearing her famous red jacket at first. Not said much, but appears to be reasonably good at public speaking.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 19, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Thought she was wearing her famous red jacket at first. Not said much, but appears to be reasonably good at public speaking.



I've always admired the confidence of private school kids if nothing else


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 19, 2013)

Ken Clarke really is a fucking idiot, isn't he.

A complete fucking idiot.

She's made some good points but I've thought she's been a bit weak at being heard tbh.


----------



## rosecore (Sep 19, 2013)

Crowd-pleasing, empty rhetoric.


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Ken Clarke really is a fucking idiot, isn't he.
> 
> A complete fucking idiot.
> 
> She's made some good points but I've thought she's been a bit weak at being heard tbh.


 
He seems to be going further to the right and a bit senile...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2013)

I look forward to the tweeting of green room pics of her unwinding post-match with her class cohorts.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I've always admired the confidence of private school kids if nothing else



Indeed. One of the many advantages of a private school education.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Indeed. One of the many advantages of a private school education.


Along with the connections.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> He seems to be going further to the right and a bit senile...


He's always been right-wing (see his youthful Mosleyite flirtation) he's just been able to mug a few people into thinking he's a _decent chap_ because he was pro-europe at a time when the EU social model hadn't yet been finally killed (it was later killed by the pro-business pro-eu people like Clarke).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I've always admired the confidence of private school kids if nothing else



The confidence usually being a cover for "all sound and fury, signifying nothing", or "hot air" as my granny called it.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The confidence usually being a cover for "all sound and fury, signifying nothing", or "hot air" as my granny called it.



I know but in a way that makes it even more impressive


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2013)

Or repulsive.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 20, 2013)

its just bone deep arrogance, a trait that can be innate but is taught with them lot


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> its just bone deep arrogance, a trait that can be innate but is taught with them lot


In a way, they are the victims.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 20, 2013)

they have their spoke on the wheel of oppression.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 20, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> In a way, they are the victims.


 
they will be, if my plans for revenge  class justice come to anything.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> they will be, if my plans for revenge  class justice come to anything.



Did no one tell you? There's no justice...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 20, 2013)

well, we'll stick with revenge then.  delicious juicy revenge, from concentrate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> well, we'll stick with revenge then.  delicious juicy revenge, from concentrate.


Pithy and to the point.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 20, 2013)

the man from del monte, he say 'DEATH TO BOURGEOISIE MOUTHPIECES'


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 22, 2013)

This is most definitely not made up:

I enjoy wearing the Hiajab - Laurie Penny



> When we were well enough to walk in the hospital gardens, Sara and I would spend long hours kvetching: she shared with me the privations of compulsory Islamic dress, whilst I lamented the pressure to constantly appear feminine and sexy that I experienced as a British teenager raised by atheists.
> 
> In the end, there was only one thing for it: we decided to swap clothes for a fortnight. Sara wore skintight tracksuits and her short, spiky hair uncovered; I wore an Abaya with full headscarf which she taught me to fold and tuck.





> I still enjoy wearing hijab, but out of respect to the many full-time veil-wearers in my area of London I only wear it around the house. Maybe that's weird - but it's no weirder than the many women who are happiest prancing around their living rooms in frilly underwear or, in the case of one particular friend of mine, eight-inch spike heels and a steel-bone corset.



Of course, it's doubly ironic that it's that she can't be seen not being seen but is making sure we see her not being seen.


----------



## killer b (Sep 22, 2013)

what the fuck?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2013)

LOL


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 22, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Thought she was wearing her famous red jacket at first.



She got a gig at Butlins? Way to bum out the holidaymakers


----------



## Favelado (Sep 22, 2013)

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 22, 2013)

> What was striking was that when we took trips to the shops in our new gladrags, both of us felt immensely liberated: our bodies were finally our own, hers to show off as she pleased, mine to cover if I wanted. For the first time since puberty, I felt that people might be seeing the real me, rather than looking at my body. This flavour of freedom, which for some women is central to self-respect, is just as valid and important a choice as the freedom to go bare-legged and low-cut -- and a truly progressive Western culture would respect both./QUOTE]


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 22, 2013)

Its as bad as Julie burchill with her fucking "i love your people so much, apart from your food and humour" bullshit 

when i was at uni, one of my mates considered converting to islam and tried to do ramadan and adopt muslim clothing (although not the hijab) she had a muslim boyfriend at the time who found out and went mental - they ended up breaking up over it 

wonder how muslims feel about this? (or people from a muslim background)


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2013)

Oh Laurie


----------



## andysays (Sep 22, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> LOL



LOL at Lol, even


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2013)

Does this mean I'm ok to wear an arafat scarf then?


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2013)

What happened to sihhi?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> What happened to sihhi?


Seemed fine, then moved into the same building as Divisive Cotton - since then, well...


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 22, 2013)

{{{{ sihhi }}}}


----------



## emanymton (Sep 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> What happened to sihhi?


I've been wondering that as well. It really isn't the same without his research skills.


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 22, 2013)

It's almost beyond parody, as though a never-ending stream of Toytown Trot 'voices of a generation' were spawned from a frenzied backstreet quickie between pretend politics and pathological self-promotion.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is most definitely not made up:
> 
> I enjoy wearing the Hiajab - Laurie Penny
> 
> ...


Fucking hell, did she really not read that back and think she sounds like an utter twat.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Sep 22, 2013)

Comedy gold.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Fucking hell, did she really not read that back and think she sounds like an utter twat.



Does she ever?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Comedy gold.



My psyche is obviously getting a bit twisted, as whenever I read something by Laura, my mind insists on using the "Spitting Image" John Major voice for narrative purposes.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Sep 23, 2013)

I don't know what to say about that article. I am at a loss for words.


----------



## caleb (Sep 23, 2013)

Doug Henwood posted this on Facebook (he didn't write it, it was written by Yasmin Nair):



> *I am done with the douchebags who've taken too many queer theory/race theory classes taught by incompetent professors whose only method of grading is to affirmatively count the number of times the words "homonormative" and "white supremacy" appear on your papers. I'm done with the Tim-Wise-cock-sucking (not in a good way) jerks who blather on about white privilege while never pondering the fact that talking about white privilege has made a very well-paid career for a white man, and several POCs, who appropriate the work of people who actually produce work and analyses.
> 
> You ignore the fact that millions of white people come from families that have been cut out of access to basics like education for generations, and that many of them have no clue how to navigate labyrinthine university systems, or how to use networks of power to which you have gained access. Instead, you demean and ostracise them because, OMG, they used the wrong ethnic term or misgendered your queer friend insisting on seeing racism and malice where there might be none. You scream "racist" and even evoke the dreaded call of "rapist" without bothering to check your facts because all that matters to you is that you get to be the ones who beat up on that white dude.
> 
> ...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 23, 2013)

THIS WILL CONTINUE!.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 23, 2013)

Nice rant.


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Its as bad as Julie burchill with her fucking "i love your people so much, apart from your food and humour" bullshit quote]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ehm I fucked up the formatting somehow but my comment is in the quote box under frogwoman's quote.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 23, 2013)

caleb said:


> Doug Henwood posted this on Facebook (he didn't write it, it was written by Yasmin Nair):


Great rant. Look at the follow up discussion. Jesus.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

i'd find it a bit weird


The Pale King said:


> Ehm I fucked up the formatting somehow but my comment is in the quote box under frogwoman's quote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it is gross and it is racism. 

and it does and can turn into scorn or disdain, as i think i pointed out on the julie burchill thread some time ago and i think LP etc also do with working class people in general. JB doesn't like jewish people she likes the idealised vision that she's created in her head of some noble savage orientalist shit which leads her to complain about meeting real jewish people (complaining that they're not pro israel enough, complaining about the food, the humour and "over focus on the family). Looks like LP is heading the same way with islam (and she already does with working class people, as do too many others)

you're not treating them as people the same as you you're treating them as like exotic creatures. and heaven forbid they not fit the stereotype or have some original thoughts of their own and don't want to be treated as exotic savages that are not really the same as you.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Great rant. Look at the follow up discussion. Jesus.



Not as bad as I was expecting actually


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

"i met a black man"


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i'd find it a bit weird
> 
> 
> it is gross and it is racism.
> ...


 
You've put it far better than I did.


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> "i met a black man"


 
In Plymouth


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 23, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Not as bad as I was expecting actually


I've only just noticed that there's more comments than the ones on the link - the ones from some goon called Daniel Spaulding esp. The first ones are better.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> You've put it far better than I did.



cheers

i've had it a couple of times, people saying how much they like "my people" and then talking about the sort of things that we are supposed to do/think (and then being disappointed when i'm not like that) its like "err yeah, thanks"
makes me feel weird and uncomfortable every time. i imagine muslim people must feel the same way

why can't these people treat everyone the same instead of some weird identity bollocks, it just goes to show how they live in a different world to everyone else. i mean i have worked alongside black and muslim people and never felt the need to draw attention to their colour or religion all the time


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

it reminds me of that episode of peep show when david mitchell's new boss is black


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 23, 2013)

It's an intimidating world I don't quite understand, American liberal 'left' academe.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2013)

Look, Suze, being black isn't about the colour of your skin, it's about vibe, about hanging out, kicking back, smoking a number, fighting prejudice and negative stereotypes wherever you find them


----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> It's an intimidating world I don't quite understand, American liberal 'left' academe.



My very limited experience of American academics who have come to work in the UK is that they are often less receptive to privilege theory, white guilt etc than left-wing British academics.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 23, 2013)

J Ed said:


> My very limited experience of American academics who have come to work in the UK is that they are often less receptive to privilege theory, white guilt etc than left-wing British academics.



I have little to no experience of any, in real life.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)




----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


>




Someone should do a similar skit with Tommy Robinson and a Jewish bloke

Tommy: I really love your people, Israel is like my second favourite country after England
Random Jewish man: Actually I was born in Birmingham
Tommy: Right, brilliant, well anyway I love what you people are doing to the pa-- uhh Muslims... if I had my way we'd bake them into matzos too. I've got like ten Israeli flags back home, anyway I bet you're loaded... can I have some money to stop the Islamification of Britain?


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> cheers
> 
> i've had it a couple of times, people saying how much they like "my people" and then talking about the sort of things that we are supposed to do/think (and then being disappointed when i'm not like that) its like "err yeah, thanks"
> makes me feel weird and uncomfortable every time. i imagine muslim people must feel the same way
> ...


 
Totally agree. And even when there's this (misguided) complementary aspect to it, there remains the menace underneath - you know, your cultural eccentricities are tolerated (subtext: for now, as long as they don't threaten our sense of self. Aren't we nice?). I think this whole talk of cultural 'respect' actually just puts distance between people, with nothing gained.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Totally agree. And even when there's this (misguided) complementary aspect to it, there remains the menace underneath - you know, your cultural eccentricities are tolerated (subtext: for now, as long as they don't threaten our sense of self. Aren't we nice?). I think this whole talk of cultural 'respect' actually just puts distance between people, with nothing gained.



there was in julie burchill's writings that's for sure when she was complaining that the jews weren't racist enough against muslims. 

i know though, i mean i'm always interested in hearing about different cultures and how people do things differently but i think the kind of stuff we're talking about here is slightly different


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Someone should do a similar skit with Tommy Robinson and a Jewish bloke
> 
> Tommy: I really love your people, Israel is like my second favourite country after England
> Random Jewish man: Actually I was born in Birmingham
> Tommy: Right, brilliant, well anyway I love what you people are doing to the pa-- uhh Muslims... if I had my way we'd bake them into matzos too. I've got like ten Israeli flags back home, anyway I bet you're loaded... can I have some money to stop the Islamification of Britain?


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> there was in julie burchill's writings that's for sure when she was complaining that the jews weren't racist enough against muslims.
> 
> i know though, i mean i'm always interested in hearing about different cultures and how people do things differently but i think the kind of stuff we're talking about here is slightly different


 
Oh absolutely, I'm not talking about the ordinary curiosity about others that we all have - just this quite specific phenomenon which you picked out from that execrable Laurie Penny piece.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Oh absolutely, I'm not talking about the ordinary curiosity about others that we all have - just this quite specific phenomenon which you picked out from that execrable Laurie Penny piece.


guy at my last work
"the jews are usually really successful, loads of them are doctors and lawyers, it's a well known sociological fact" 
me: "I'm not sure about that, I'm not very successful" (thinking that he was going to go off on some conspiracy bullshit) 
him: "no it's because you all work really hard and you should be proud of it"


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> guy at my last work
> "the jews are usually really successful, loads of them are doctors and lawyers, it's a well known sociological fact"
> me: "I'm not sure about that, I'm not very successful" (thinking that he was going to go off on some conspiracy bullshit)
> him: "no it's because you all work really hard and you should be proud of it"


 
Bloody hell. That's what we were talking about. You have to bear the weight of history. You're an avatar. There's something about your Jewishness that makes you different / maybe better / maybe worse. Horrible, uncomfortable position to put you in from my perspective, but being a Scottish guy with no obvious religious affiliation people don't try and put me in these 'sociological' boxes so I haven't experienced this feeling.
On a side note, did you skive off in this job a lot and did he give you a meaningful look after the 'hard working' bit?


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Bloody hell. That's what we were talking about. You have to bear the weight of history. You're an avatar. There's something about your Jewishness that makes you different / maybe better / maybe worse. Horrible, uncomfortable position to put you in from my perspective, but being a Scottish guy with no obvious religious affiliation people don't try and put me in these 'sociological' boxes so I haven't experienced this feeling.
> On a side note, did you skive off in this job a lot and did he give you a meaningful look after the 'hard working' bit?



i did skive off a bit, but not as much as i could of, and when he/other people in his role wanted stuff doing for him i did it straight away

he probably didn't even realise what he had said was wrong, he was all right to be fair, just a bit clueless  

to be fair i don't think he realised whats wrong with saying what he did, i think he thought he was paying me a compliment because in his mind we're all successful, work really hard and i should be proud of it, whereas my immediate reaction to things like that (and of a lot of other people i think) is to start thinking of banker/ZOG shit


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Bloody hell. That's what we were talking about. You have to bear the weight of history. You're an avatar. There's something about your Jewishness that makes you different / maybe better / maybe worse. Horrible, uncomfortable position to put you in from my perspective, but being a Scottish guy with no obvious religious affiliation people don't try and put me in these 'sociological' boxes so I haven't experienced this feeling.
> On a side note, did you skive off in this job a lot and did he give you a meaningful look after the 'hard working' bit?



you'd probably get put in a sociological box if you went to the states and mixed with certain circles over there, either being called english all the time or being assumed to be a second coming of braveheart


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> you'd probably get put in a sociological box if you went to the states and mixed with certain circles over there, either being called english all the time or being assumed to be a second coming of braveheart



Right, U.S.A here I come! I want my box...

Second coming of Braveheart sounds alright as well  Just hope I'm not allergic to woad...


----------



## J Ed (Sep 24, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/sep/23/kanye-west-zane-lowe-interview

This is why privilege theory is stupid.

The Guardian gives Kanye West a platform to discuss, from his position of immense privilege, unparalleled by 99.999% of the world's population, not the actual real world life and death problems faced by the working-class (of which a very large number are of course black) but the fact that no one wants him to design trainers or something... and the Guardianistas eat it up.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 24, 2013)

Police commentariat: mate of mine has this as his twitter pic:







He was contacted by the police to say:



> “Hi Durston, please remove our logo from your profile pic on Twitter and Facebook – it could be deemed as impersonating a police officer.” -


 Could be some fun here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> It's an intimidating world I don't quite understand, American liberal 'left' academe.



Probably because it's barely "left" in any real sense, and mostly illiberal in its' fondness for ignoring class (except when engaging in the sort of "noble savage" narrative froggie mentioned).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

J Ed said:


> My very limited experience of American academics who have come to work in the UK is that they are often less receptive to privilege theory, white guilt etc than left-wing British academics.



Kind of depends where you are.  You're more likely to find this shit on some campuses than others.  Most of the (few) British left-wing academics I know are way over the other side of the privilege theory debate.  They (like me) saw what happened to wider politics last time identity politics were allowed to run rampant, and aren't in favour of losing another 20 years to futile "hierarchy of oppression" bullshit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Police commentariat: mate of mine has this as his twitter pic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is Durston a ringer for Reg Hollis, then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> I have little to no experience of any, in real life.



Oh lucky man!!


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Kind of depends where you are.  You're more likely to find this shit on some campuses than others.  Most of the (few) British left-wing academics I know are way over the other side of the privilege theory debate.  They (like me) saw what happened to wider politics last time identity politics were allowed to run rampant, and aren't in favour of losing another 20 years to futile "hierarchy of oppression" bullshit.



I've never come across it in African studies.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh lucky man!!



My last mutually uncomfortable 'interaction' with one was in Sheffield in 2009.  I formed the impression that she had largely only read and talked about working class people than with them.

The sixth bullet may eventually become one, however.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I've never come across it in African studies.



You'd have to be fucking crazy to try it on, with regard to most modern African states, IMO!

Identity politics and a "hierarchy of oppression" (in the way the _intersectionalistas_ mean it) seem to me to only really be able to operate within certain _milieus_ where a disconnected middle-class can theorise itself as a redemptor for society's oppressed.  I'm not sure how many different African cultures are that far up themselves yet.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> The sixth bullet may eventually become one, however.



Not good at the cryptic stuff, sorry.


----------



## rosecore (Sep 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is most definitely not made up:
> 
> I enjoy wearing the Hiajab - Laurie Penny
> 
> ...



The very worst kind of cultural appropriation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> My last mutually uncomfortable 'interaction' with one was in Sheffield in 2009.  I formed the impression that she had largely only read and talked about working class people than with them.



I remember you mentioning that! 



> The sixth bullet may eventually become one, however.



She'll be able to speak from a position of knowledge, then, not from a theoretical standpoint only.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You'd have to be fucking crazy to try it on, with regard to most modern African states, IMO!
> 
> Identity politics and a "hierarchy of oppression" (in the way the _intersectionalistas_ mean it) seem to me to only really be able to operate within certain _milieus_ where a disconnected middle-class can theorise itself as a redemptor for society's oppressed.  I'm not sure how many different African cultures are that far up themselves yet.



Actually, the sexy topic in African studies these days is the rise of "the African middle class", a question-begging term that nonetheless does identify a real social phenomenon. Quite possibly they may end up "up themselves" to use your pithy east London jargon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Not good at the cryptic stuff, sorry.



Mrs Bullet may eventually become an academic.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mrs Bullet may eventually become an academic.



Let's hope she's better at the cryptic stuff, then.

And you'd have to be off your head to go into academia these days.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Actually, the sexy topic in African studies these days is the rise of "the African middle class", a question-begging term that nonetheless does identify a real social phenomenon. Quite possibly they may end up "up themselves" to use your pithy east London jargon.



East London?  Fuck you, Paddy!!! 

South-west London, you cahnt!!


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> East London?  Fuck you, Paddy!!!
> 
> South-west London, you cahnt!!



You mean you're _not _Sath Efrican?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

rosecore said:


> The very worst kind of cultural appropriation.



I'm torn between agreeing, and believing she did it deliberately, and thinking "perhaps she really is so gormless and gullible that she didn't think about what she was doing".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> You mean you're _not _Sath Efrican?



Definitely not!

Nobody loves a white Sath Efrican!!!


----------



## rosecore (Sep 24, 2013)

> I sort of love seeing girls in Hijab over skin-tight designer jeans with major camel toe. London: never change.


Ummmm (from last year).


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Definitely not!
> 
> Nobody loves a white Sath Efrican!!!



And that's not bleddy surprising, mun.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 25, 2013)

Mental Telegraph list of "100 most influential left wingers" by Iain "ASBO" Dale is mental:

100-51 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...100-most-influential-Left-wingers-100-51.html
 50-1 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...p-100-most-influential-Left-wingers-50-1.html


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 25, 2013)

LLETSA not placed again


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 25, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> LLETSA not placed again


The long march through the internetz


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 25, 2013)

rosecore said:


> Ummmm (from last year).




oh dear.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> The long march through the internetz



On fire today, Dave!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 25, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> On fire today, Dave!


Too much work to do. Inside I am crying. Send help.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Too much work to do. Inside I am crying. Send help.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 25, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> LLETSA not placed again


Or me


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Sep 25, 2013)

So when does Laurie Penny publish her 'I enjoyed having my clit circumcised' blog post?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Mental Telegraph list of "100 most influential left wingers" by Iain "ASBO" Dale is mental:
> 
> 100-51 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...100-most-influential-Left-wingers-100-51.html
> 50-1 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...p-100-most-influential-Left-wingers-50-1.html



Half of them are less left-wing than my Tory-voting mum!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2013)

Malky a close follower of 'teen twitter':



> *Malcolm Harris* ‏@*BigMeanInternet*
> Consensus on teen twitter is that weed is now legal.
> 
> 5:43 AM - 1 Oct 13


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

*



			compiled by Iain Dale with the help of an expert panel
		
Click to expand...

*

*what experts are these?  *


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> *what experts are these?  *


Improved for you:



> *Compiled by Iain Dale with the help of an expert panelling*


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## The Pale King (Oct 2, 2013)

Louise Mensch advocating aggressive tactics for the Conservatives in the coming election campaign:

"And I’d campaign virally"  

http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/09/bring-torymakeover


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## tufty79 (Oct 2, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> "And I'd campaign virally"


Bubonic plague attachment with every other email/flyer?


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## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Louise Mensch advocating aggressive tactics for the Conservatives in the coming election campaign:
> 
> "And I’d campaign virally"
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/09/bring-torymakeover



shes on the Chang again





> In fighting to win my own marginal seat of Corby in 2010, I was supremely grateful to our activists and members but aimed to appeal to a greater swath of the public.



she did no such thing, was voted in by the surround villages and dumped the gig halfway through. Name is still mud in Corby. I lived there six months of this year and every town person who knew who she was thought she was a shit. Never to be found doing any constituency work whatsoever. Unobtainable by phone or email.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Louise Mensch advocating aggressive tactics for the Conservatives in the coming election campaign:
> 
> "And I’d campaign virally"
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/09/bring-torymakeover



Read that in last week's hard copy of the _Staggers_.  It's about as lucid as a wet fart, and as meaningful as a whore's kiss.  She comes across as a speeder gabbing 19 to the dozen.


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## pissflaps (Oct 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> And that's not bleddy surprising, mun.


worst polish accent ever.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Read that in last week's hard copy of the _Staggers_.  It's about as lucid as a wet fart, and as meaningful as a whore's kiss.  She comes across as a speeder gabbing 19 to the dozen.



she's too much money to be on the billy whizz. Gotta be columbias largest export


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## The Pale King (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Read that in last week's hard copy of the _Staggers_.  It's about as lucid as a wet fart, and as meaningful as a whore's kiss.  She comes across as a speeder gabbing 19 to the dozen.


 
Like your turn of phrase!
Yeah - her article  reads like a free-association of lame clichés. Spectacularly unenlightening. Why the New Statesman are publishing her I have no idea, unless they are going to do a sort of left - right face off on each issue with her against Laurie Penny.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

_



			This is an edited extract from the autumn 2013 edition of Bright Blue’s magazine, the Progressive Conscience
		
Click to expand...

_
christ I'd rather read the warning labels on a fag packet than that


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/10/dont-menshn-the-confusion/


whoops.


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## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2...ated-at-freshers-fair-over-offensive-t-shirtsJunior commentariat/next generation of interns:



> Student Union officials removed materials from the LSESU Atheist, Secularist and Humanist Student Society stand and demanded that the group removed t-shirts they were wearing featuring satirical Jesus and Mo cartoons. When asked for an explanation, LSESU officials stated that several students had complained about the t-shirts.
> 
> After a period of consultation a member of the LSE Legal and Compliance Team and Head of Security told the members of the Atheist, Secularist and Humanist Society that the wearing of the t-shirts could be considered "harassment", as it could "offend others" by creating an "offensive environment".


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## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/10/dont-menshn-the-confusion/
> 
> 
> whoops.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 4, 2013)

Paul Staines has published a letter purportedly from Mehdi Hasan to Paul Dacre. It has the ring of authenticity; if it's been mocked up, then it was done very well indeed. 



Dear Mr Dacre,

My name is Mehdi Hasan and I’m the _New Statesman’s_ senior political editor. My good friend Peter Oborne suggested I drop you a line as I’m very keen to write for the _Daily Mail_.
Although I am on the left of the political spectrum, and disagree with the _Mail’s_ editorial line on a range of issues, I have always admired the paper’s passion, rigour, boldness and, of course, news values. I believe the _Mail_ has a vitally important role to play in the national debate, and I admire your relentless focus on the need for integrity and morality in public life, and your outspoken defence of faith, and Christian culture, in the face of attacks from militant atheists and secularists. I also believe – as does Peter – that I could be a fresh and passionate, not to mention polemical and contrarian, voice on the comment and feature pages of your award-winning newspaper.
For the record, I am not a Labour tribalist and am often ultra-critical of the left – especially on social and moral issues, where my fellow leftists and liberals have lost touch with their own traditions and with the great British public. In my column in this week’s issue of the _New Statesman_, for example, I offered a critique of the five Labour leadership candidates, and their various inadequacies, accusing them all of lacking what George Bush Snr once called “the vision thing”.
I could therefore write pieces for the _Mail_ critical of Labour and the left, from “inside” Labour and the left (as the senior political editor at the _New Statesman_).
I am also attracted by the _Mail’s_ social conservatism on issues like marriage, the family, abortion and teenage pregnancies. I’d like to write a piece for the _Mail_making the left-wing case against abortion, or a piece on why marriage should be a Labour value, and not just a Conservative one. My own unabashed social conservatism on such issues derives from my Islamic faith. But as a British Muslim, I have also upset some of my more hardline co-religionists in the past by arguing, in print, for a change in Islam’s draconian apostasy laws to allow Muslims to convert to other faiths (like Christianity). Here is a _New Statesman _column I wrote on the subject in April.
In addition, I wrote a column last year condemning suicide bombings, from an Islamic and moral perspective, in which I also castigated Muslims for failing to unequivocally condemn such acts of terror wherever in the world they occur.
And, earlier this year, I wrote a piece for the _Guardian_ belittling Muslim extremist Anjum Choudary and his crude, headline-grabbing attempt to carry “coffins” through Wootton Bassett.
A bit of background: I am 31, and was born and brought up in the United Kingdom, the son of Indian immigrants (an engineer and a doctor) who came here in the 1960s. I am an Oxfordgraduate. Prior to joining the _New Statesman _in June 2009, I spent a decade working in television as a news-and-current-affairs producer at ITN, the BBC, Sky News and Channel 4.
I do hope you’ll consider me for future columns and features in the _Daily Mail_ on political, social, moral and/or religious issues. I believe you once told sports columnist Des Kelly that he should “make them laugh, make them cry, or make them angry”. That’s something I believe I could do for you, and for your readers, on the pages of the _Mail_.
Thank you very much for your time.
Sincerely,
*Mehdi Hasan
Senior Editor (politics)
New Statesman*


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## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

It's genuine - as MH admitted sometime this afternoon.


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## J Ed (Oct 4, 2013)

We all change our opinions to some extent with new information but I think that Mehdi Hassan is a rent-a-gob whose opinions shift depending on the audience, see his calling non-Muslims cattle to an Islamist audience and his entirely unconvincing subsequent denials.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 4, 2013)

So it appears that it was written in 2010 and the Mail kept it just in case they needed it to use against Hasan in the future.


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## brogdale (Oct 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's genuine - as MH admitted sometime this afternoon.



I suppose MH feels he must have scored a direct hit against the DM if they're minded to release such a letter. Might make other journos think twice before contacting the organisation?


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## Balbi (Oct 5, 2013)

Journalists eyes up additional pay cheque shocker


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## J Ed (Oct 5, 2013)

Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett is a way better voice of a generation than Laurie Penny

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/tories-nicer-neets-conservatives-young-people


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## The Pale King (Oct 6, 2013)

The bit that gets my goat about Mehdi Hasan is that he says in his letter that he has 'castigated Muslims' for not condemning terrorism with sufficient speed and alacrity. He leaves that hanging. The implication is clearly 'I will castigate Muslims for you' (and I'm a Muslim, so I can do it without attracting too much criticism). Turn Uncle Tom for pay, in other words.

Of course I expect nothing from the commentariat - I think we all know that when the situation ultimately calls for a taking of sides, they won't be on ours. But the sheer venality is still disturbing. 

But I guess that I find it disturbing is an index of my own naivety really, as an Oxbridge education just shows you how to make arguments (not good ones, just ones that will serve a purpose) but not arguments in the service of ethics or values, just arguments that can put a gloss on whatever atrocity is going down. That Oxford entrance thing where they had to write a speech justifying killing protesters would be an example.


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## J Ed (Oct 6, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> The bit that gets my goat about Mehdi Hasan is that he says in his letter that he has 'castigated Muslims' for not condemning terrorism with sufficient speed and alacrity. He leaves that hanging. The implication is clearly 'I will castigate Muslims for you' (and I'm a Muslim, so I can do it without attracting too much criticism). Turn Uncle Tom for pay, in other words.



He also presents himself as a person on the left willing to be used to attack the left.

It's a very interesting little window on to a world which I knew existed but I didn't think would be so nakedly obvious, I suppose I just would expect the willingness to be used like that for money would be dressed up in more flowery language.


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Paul Staines has published a letter purportedly from Mehdi Hasan to Paul Dacre. It has the ring of authenticity; if it's been mocked up, then it was done very well indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I've tried to accept and rationalise this, the campaigner Sonia Poulton writes for the DM online, work is work and its easy for others to decry it, but its the DM, Mehdi sells himself as a leftist(of kinds) no, he is a hypocrite.


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

> A bit of background: I am 31, and was born and brought up in the United Kingdom, the son of Indian immigrants (an engineer and a doctor) who came here in the 1960s. I am an Oxfordgraduate. Prior to joining the _New Statesman _in June 2009, I spent a decade working in television as a news-and-current-affairs producer at ITN, the BBC, Sky News and Channel 4.


 
Came up the hard way then...


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## smokedout (Oct 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> I've tried to accept and rationalise this, the campaigner Sonia Poulton writes for the DM online, work is work and its easy for others to decry it, but its the DM, Mehdi sells himself as a leftist(of kinds) no, he is a hypocrite.



she also works for david icke


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## frogwoman (Oct 6, 2013)

smokedout said:


> she also works for david icke



link? ughhh


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## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2013)

J Ed said:


> He also presents himself as a person on the left willing to be used to attack the left.
> 
> It's a very interesting little window on to a world which I knew existed but I didn't think would be so nakedly obvious, I suppose I just would expect the willingness to be used like that for money would be dressed up in more flowery language.


If he's gone to somewhere like Brighton college he wouldn't need to be scrabbling around on his knees looking for an arse to kiss. The contacts this would provide would act as a safety net if the oxford ones failed.


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## smokedout (Oct 6, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> link? ughhh


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## frogwoman (Oct 6, 2013)

these people.


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## The Pale King (Oct 6, 2013)

J Ed said:


> He also presents himself as a person on the left willing to be used to attack the left.
> 
> It's a very interesting little window on to a world which I knew existed but I didn't think would be so nakedly obvious, I suppose I just would expect the willingness to be used like that for money would be dressed up in more flowery language.



I know what you mean. It just seems so...transactional. It's obviously something that is understood in these oxbridge/media/elite circles (where I guess inflexible principles are looked at as quaint, old fashioned etc), but to normals like us it just looks depraved.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2013)

can we have Nick the tory strike smearing liar Robinsons vapid guff here? cos this was a) phoned in and b) total bollocks



> All this was inspired in large part by a Labour leader who the week before at his conference had promised to bring back socialism and had defined himself as the man ready to stand up not just to the energy firms but any business which abused its power.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24374260


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> can we have Nick the tory strike smearing liar Robinsons vapid guff here? cos this was a) phoned in and b) total bollocks
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24374260



Not just phoned in, but in his sleep too, the lazy cunt!


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 8, 2013)

http://www.newstatesman.com/magazines/2013/10/how-i-became-lads-mag-feminist


"Lulu Le Vay used to physically balk at the sight of a young bloke flicking through the bosom-heavy pages of a lads’ mag. But once she started working for one, she became a lot less sure that these publications were as "degrading and harmful" as she had always assumed."

-----------------------------

i keep trying to type a suitable satirical response to this but nothing i can say that can sum up the massive facepalm.


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## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2013)

I wonder what commissioning editor commissioned that then.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not just phoned in, but in his sleep too, the lazy cunt!




the last bit is the best bit




> For two men who grew up in the Thatcher era this must all be rather nostalgic. For some voters too. It certainly means that the divide between them is a great deal clearer than it was before.



like fuck does certainly mean that. It's like Nick Robinson woke up and thought 'fuck, I'd better write some shit for the beeb website to justify my existence'

and managed to come up with some pure fucking tosh. It's actually angered me. We pay for this man to plate up his own faeces and offer it as political comment.

All rather nostalgic indeed. The thatcher era was nearly 20 years + ago and while there is a significant proportion of the electorate old enough to remember it nobody is nostalgic for it, nobody is buying this 'red' ed vs the evil tories shit and Nick Robinson has trousered another cheque from OUR POCKETS in order to offer up a scant few paragraphs of absolute bullshit. Why is he even allowed to walk and talk, let alone given space on a platform we pay for? This isn't even GCSE level analysis its fucking keystage two maquerading as grown up insights. I could write better and I'm politically illiterate in the scheme of things.

What does this ageing freak have that I don't that gets him platform and the concomitant pay? Nothing except contacts and the right schools. God he makes me so angry.


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## frogwoman (Oct 8, 2013)

http://ow.ly/pBrJf

thanks el-ahrairah


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## barney_pig (Oct 9, 2013)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-fall-victim-to-our-expectations-8864892.html
Archie Bland; 

." The sense of public affection is so powerful that it may even carry this 16-year-old to the Nobel Peace Prize later this week. If so, she would be the youngest ever recipient. If anyone is worthy of such an honour, it’s her. But I hope she doesn’t get it."

"But Malala is already viewed with some cynicism by many in Pakistan, even seen in some quarters – quite unfairly – as a mouthpiece for Western ideas that are not her own"

Those would be the cunts who shot her.


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## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

She was rubbish on that show last night. Didn't lick any sledgehammers or nothing. The thing there is who Bland's contacts or who the Independent provide are. They are not the secular muslims, the left-wing muslims. They are stuck in a vicious circle of their views being seen as islamopobic so cut off from the left, and that isolation then being seen as being non-representative.


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## coley (Oct 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Great rant. Look at the follow up discussion. Jesus.


Tried, didn't understand a word.


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## coley (Oct 10, 2013)

Spent yonks reading this post trying to understand why vapid, uninformed and hypocritical 'columnists' who the real WC never bother with, or read,should excite such froth amongst obviously politically aware posters, conclusion? I'm to thick, or busy, to have kept up with the fast moving discourse of today's left wing alternatives to the current Shyte set up.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 10, 2013)

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/r...w-fizz-bar-is-not-the-enemy-here-8871379.html

Has Rosamund Urwin been on the thread yet? I reckon she definitely reads Urban...


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## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/r...w-fizz-bar-is-not-the-enemy-here-8871379.html
> 
> Has Rosamund Urwin been on the thread yet? I reckon she definitely reads Urban...


with a bit of practice she might gain quite a nice personality


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2013)

> On Facebook, the anti-champers campaigners — fans of hyperbole, the caps lock key and exclamation marks — wrote that they want to “DISTURB THE YUPPIE INFIDELS SO MUCH THAT THEY CHOKE ON THEIR RANCID FIZZ”. To stress their point — bubbly and Brie don’t belong in Brixton — they’ll be handing out Dairylea cheese slices and White Ace cider.



On FB eh Rosamund?


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## J Ed (Oct 10, 2013)

Does anyone remember what LP's piece on Game of Thrones (she obv hasn't read or spent much time watching it judging from the review) was originally titled?


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## rosecore (Oct 10, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Does anyone remember what LP's piece on Game of Thrones (she obv hasn't read or spent much time watching it judging from the review) was originally titled?



"Game of Thrones is _racist rape-culture Disneyland with Dragons_"


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## ska invita (Oct 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/r...w-fizz-bar-is-not-the-enemy-here-8871379.html
> 
> Has Rosamund Urwin been on the thread yet? I reckon she definitely reads Urban...


check the Chapagane and Cheese thread in Brixton forum  - she plagiarised a post or two off it


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 15, 2013)

> *Verso Books * ‏@*VersoBooks*
> Dan Hancox launches his book @*Foyles*, introduced by dubstep expert @*paulmasonnews* #*marinaleda* pic.twitter.com/uqBePTEKIl
> 
> 
> ...



zer0 books, the semi-vanity imprint of choice for Laurie Penny and various IoI/ex-RCP professional contrarians, retweets this message from Verso (set up by yesteryear's commentariat of the _New Left Review_) about Paul Mason (hip tame ex-trot ex-NewsNight economics editor-turned-C4News digital editor and preferred purveyor of above-ground forewords for edgy essay collections) introducing a new book - but not one on dubstep! - by Dan Hancox, editor of a book about student protests (and subject of a recent hatchet job by the work experience dude on Spiked for being, like, too old for grime, or something).


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## belboid (Oct 15, 2013)

uhh, its not on dubstep, its on Marinaleda, the 'communist' village in Andalucia


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 15, 2013)

I think the dubstep comment relates to Mason making a mistake about music being played on the portable soundsystem during the student riots.

I think Dan did a piece for the Guardian about what was actually played. (He also did a great article for my fanzine about the metropolitan police shutting down grime raves).

Mason is more of a northern soul man, it would seem from a recent edition of The Culture Show.


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## benedict (Oct 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think the dubstep comment relates to Mason making a mistake about music being played on the portable soundsystem during the student riots.
> 
> I think Dan did a piece for the Guardian about what was actually played. (He also did a great article for my fanzine about the metropolitan police shutting down grime raves).
> 
> Mason is more of a northern soul man, it would seem from a recent edition of The Culture Show.



I'm sure he talked in his his "kicking-off" book a lot of nonsense about dubstep being the sound of the youth revolution, or such like.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> (He also did a great article for my fanzine about the metropolitan police shutting down grime raves).



I should say that I don't have any particular axe to grind with DH (I liked his article about fences, for example, as well as his enthusiasm for grime & dubstep), more rolling my eyes at the incredibly limited vistas that are created by such incestuous self-sustaining commentariat circles. 

(Sorry Stavvers, I should have TRIGGER WARNINGed that.)

It almost makes me side with O'Neill's catamite.


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## caleb (Oct 16, 2013)

Just seen somebody post something elsewhere about the lack of black academics in the UK. And then say this is proof that intersectionality isn't something that emerged from, is tied to, and has its basis in academia (or rather, universities). I'm scratching my head a little bit.


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## Nigel Irritable (Oct 16, 2013)

caleb said:


> Just seen somebody post something elsewhere about the lack of black academics in the UK. And then say this is proof that intersectionality isn't something that emerged from, is tied to, and has its basis in academia (or rather, universities). I'm scratching my head a little bit.



Where?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

caleb said:


> Just seen somebody post something elsewhere about the lack of black academics in the UK. And then say this is proof that intersectionality isn't something that emerged from, is tied to, and has its basis in academia (or rather, universities). I'm scratching my head a little bit.


who and where if you don't want your comment to be part of the commentariat


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2013)

> Eight out of ten people that I came in contact with while wearing a burqa acted as if I didn’t even exist, which actually made me feel worse than the looks I received from busybodies who were offended by my presence. I have a newfound respect for the women who choose to wear these kinds of garments, but I will never do anything like this ever again because it _suckkkkked_.



http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-walked-around-in-a-burqa-all-day-and-im-not-muslim


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 17, 2013)

Check out the twitter argument between Timothy James Heal ("Left-wing Bristolian scientist. If I say something trans/homo/xeno etc phobic, please call me up on it and I'll try to not say it again") and anti-FGM activist Nimko Ali. It's quite something.

The phrase "check your privilege" is uttered! Right-on white male intersectionalista mansplains racism to a British-Somali woman! There is talk of "othering"!


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## brogdale (Oct 17, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Check out the twitter argument between Timothy James Heal ("Left-wing Bristolian scientist. If I say something trans/homo/xeno etc phobic, please call me up on it and I'll try to not say it again") and anti-FGM activist Nimko Ali. It's quite something.
> 
> The phrase "check your privilege" is uttered! Right-on white male intersectionalista mansplains racism to a British-Somali woman! There is talk of "othering"!



kinnel


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## weepiper (Oct 18, 2013)

Seen on twitter today



> #ff someone who makes you feel uncomfortable about your own privilege. preferably many someones.


reply by someone else: 


> Although! It's also important to remember they are real people and not just tools for you to educate yourself.


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## love detective (Oct 19, 2013)

would make a change from them blocking people who make them feel uncomfortable about their own privilege


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## love detective (Oct 19, 2013)

laurie penny said:
			
		

> Almost all my anti-racist education comes from the internet



jesus fuck

the better you are at the internet the less racist you are


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## love detective (Oct 19, 2013)

did anyone see what Laurie Penny's racist tweet that she deleted was?

edit: ah sorry was that the one you posted wee piper?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

brogdale said:


> kinnel



indeed Catherine McFuckinnel


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## weepiper (Oct 19, 2013)

love detective said:


> did anyone see what Laurie Penny's racist tweet that she deleted was?
> 
> edit: ah sorry was that the one you posted wee piper?


no, that was someone else


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## J Ed (Oct 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-walked-around-in-a-burqa-all-day-and-im-not-muslim



So everyone ignored her... isn't that what happens to everyone in cities like NY?


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## DotCommunist (Oct 19, 2013)

love detective said:


> jesus fuck
> 
> the better you are at the internet the less racist you are



also:





			
				penny said:
			
		

> Twitter teaches me




lol


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## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-walked-around-in-a-burqa-all-day-and-im-not-muslim





J Ed said:


> So everyone ignored her... isn't that what happens to everyone in cities like NY?


Not sure i'd ignore someone doing a modern day version of blacking up.


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## andysays (Oct 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure i'd ignore someone doing a modern day version of blacking up.



Although unless she also carried around a sign saying "look at me, I'm wearing a burqa as an experiment" it would be rather difficult to tell.

I agree with the general point of your comparison though...


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## redsquirrel (Oct 20, 2013)

love detective said:


> jesus fuck
> 
> the better you are at the internet the less racist you are


What's amazing is that she hasn't got enough self-awareness to realise what an absolute shallow self-absorbed dick this makes her sound.


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## J Ed (Oct 20, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Check out the twitter argument between Timothy James Heal ("Left-wing Bristolian scientist. If I say something trans/homo/xeno etc phobic, please call me up on it and I'll try to not say it again") and anti-FGM activist Nimko Ali. It's quite something.
> 
> The phrase "check your privilege" is uttered! Right-on white male intersectionalista mansplains racism to a British-Somali woman! There is talk of "othering"!



Jesus. He is seriously saying that attacking a man because he is out with a black woman is a reaction to racism and comparable to the ANC. Fucking idiot.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

I shall put his theory to the test next time he turns up at a meeting i'm at.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 20, 2013)

When I saw a tiny version of this pic pop up on my FB timeline I thought it was Laurie, which in a way might have made more sense (in that it would have made no sense whatever):

http://disinfo.com/2013/10/man-spends-hundred-grand-plastic-surgery-look-like-justin-bieber/


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## caleb (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Where?





Pickman's model said:


> who and where if you don't want your comment to be part of the commentariat



Friend of a friend on facebook, only met them a handful of times and they aren't commentariat (yet!).

Re: the concern for the number of black academics in the UK. It reminds me of the recent 'intersectional'/'privilege' backlash against "white feminism". Basically they say everything _we've_ been saying about bourgeois feminism - it's overly focused on the career goals of a small minority of women, etc (bear in mind making these criticisms has had us accused of ignoring gender because we're class-based dinosaurs*). But instead of taking up a class-based feminism in response, they argue the answer is more black women in these positions, etc. So they'll make valid criticisms of "[middle class] white feminism" whilst taking it's positions.

*Of course, you're only allowed to talk about class when "classism" is concerned. It doesn't exist otherwise.


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## seventh bullet (Oct 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Jesus. He is seriously saying that attacking a man because he is out with a black woman is a reaction to racism and comparable to the ANC. Fucking idiot.



All of this stuff gives me a headache.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> Friend of a friend on facebook, only met them a handful of times and they aren't commentariat (yet!).
> 
> Re: the concern for the number of black academics in the UK. It reminds me of the recent 'intersectional'/'privilege' backlash against "white feminism". Basically they say everything _we've_ been saying about bourgeois feminism - it's overly focused on the career goals of a small minority of women, etc (bear in mind making these criticisms has had us accused of ignoring gender because we're class-based dinosaurs*). But instead of taking up a class-based feminism in response, they argue the answer is more black women in these positions, etc. So they'll make valid criticisms of "[middle class] white feminism" whilst taking it's positions.
> 
> *Of course, you're only allowed to talk about class when "classism" is concerned. It doesn't exist otherwise.



And, of course, when anyone argues that positive discrimination isn't the answer - that it's been proven to merely concretise the power of already-existent minority middle classes at the expense of working class minorities - they get accused of negative discrimination. 

As has been said before, you'll find very little class analysis in anything the _intersectionalistas_ have to say.  Not because class is an invalid analytic tool, but because it doesn't fit with the simplistic pieties through which they pronounce and denounce what constitutes "privilege".


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

love detective said:


> did anyone see what Laurie Penny's racist tweet that she deleted was?
> 
> edit: ah sorry was that the one you posted wee piper?


 
Was that it? I had the impression that it was something to do with Emmett Till, but I don't know what it was. It must have been pretty misguided at best as she's getting a lot of grief about it, and now whinging that she's getting grief, and 'trying to be a better ally'. Not an auspicious start to her visit to the States.
*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  18 Oct
Deleted previous tweet because of intersectionality fuckup, and because I don't want to detract from the original story. Twitter teaches me.

"Intersectionality fuckup". Chill out guys, these things can happen when you are intersectionalising, yeah?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

She said _where the white women at._


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> She said _where the white women at._


 
What's the Emmett Till connection then? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick altogether?

Deleting the tweet was the worst thing I would say. If she really wanted to be an ally and fight her own internalised racism she could've left it up as a 'teachable moment' or something. Deleting it sounds like cowardice and even worse, a lack of commitment to intersectionality.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

That was a blazing saddle allusion - i've got no idea what she posted/deleted nor how it connects up the Emmeett Till case. Was just a little bit of long term jokery. Sorry.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 20, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> What's the Emmett Till connection then? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick altogether?
> 
> Deleting the tweet was the worst thing I would say. If she really wanted to be an ally and fight her own internalised racism she could've left it up as a 'teachable moment' or something. Deleting it sounds like cowardice and even worse, a lack of commitment to intersectionality.



Maybe the original tweet and/or deletion are the fault of an incompetent sub-editor.


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That was blazing saddle allusion - i've got no idea what she posted/deleted nor how it connects up the Emmeett Till case. Was just a little bit of long term jokery. Sorry.


 
No apology required! I thought you might be joking but I didn't get the Blazing Saddles ref. I might get the next one...


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Maybe the original tweet and/or deletion are the fault of an incompetent sub-editor.


 
No doubt they are Bakunin, I had forgotten about L.P's rotten luck with subeditors...


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 20, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> No doubt they are Bakunin, I had forgotten about L.P's rotten luck with subeditors...



Curious, isn't it? A never-ending stream of conveniently anonymous underlings are held responsible every time Penny Dreadful fucks up. 

Amazing that there are so many bungling subbies in the business and that they invariably cross paths with her on so regular a basis.


----------



## caleb (Oct 20, 2013)

Penny described Daisy Coleman, a young woman who was raped in Maryville, as 'feminism's Emmett Till'.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> Penny described Daisy Coleman, a young woman who was raped in Maryville, as 'feminism's Emmett Till'.


Which to me suggests a) she's reading a book and her lack of experience led her to write something so crass and b) wtf is she doing writing at all if all she can she is these ciphers that she fills up with herself.


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> Penny described Daisy Coleman, a young woman who was raped in Maryville, as 'feminism's Emmett Till'.


 
Oh god, that's repulsive. Thanks for letting me know Caleb but I wish I hadn't asked now! That'll teach me to go looking at Laurie Penny's twitter. Never again!


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Curious, isn't it? A never-ending stream of conveniently anonymous underlings are held responsible every time Penny Dreadful fucks up.
> 
> Amazing that there are so many bungling subbies in the business and that they invariably cross paths with her on so regular a basis.


 
It is indeed curious! We can only be thankful that she bears these trials with such grace and humility.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 20, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> It is indeed curious! We can only be thankful that she bears these trials with such grace and humility.



Don't forget her diplomatic charm with critics and her comprehensive self-awareness.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> Penny described Daisy Coleman, a young woman who was raped in Maryville, as 'feminism's Emmett Till'.



I'm less horrified than simply baffled. What point was she trying to make?

(Also given the old Brownmiller v. Davis dispute, in which his murder featured prominently, wasn't Emmett Till "feminism's Emmett Till"?)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

And why delete it?  Why not educate a generation?


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 20, 2013)

Indeed! If it was really an innocent 'intersectionalism fail' leaving it up to instruct the masses in right and wrong ways of intersectionalising would've been the way to go. Show us our errors before we make them! She says something on twitter about not 'making it all about her' but that's never stopped her before frankly, so it's a mystery to me why she's come over all coy.

Like Nigel, I'm not sure either what point she's trying to make, I think she was just trying out a snappy bit of phrasemaking, not realising that real people are more than just fodder for sloganizing, co-opting to your agenda and self-aggrandizement. But it should be right there in the dictionary as the definition of the word 'crass'. How can you construct a politics based on identity and yet say something so galumphingly stupid?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> Penny described Daisy Coleman, a young woman who was raped in Maryville, as 'feminism's Emmett Till'.


She has no idea what actually happened to either Daisy Coleman or Emmett Till, does she? Utterly crass statement to make.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Indeed! If it was really an innocent 'intersectionalism fail' leaving it up to instruct the masses in right and wrong ways of intersectionalising would've been the way to go. Show us our errors before we make them! She says something on twitter about not 'making it all about her' but that's never stopped her before frankly, so it's a mystery to me why she's come over all coy.
> 
> Like Nigel, I'm not sure either what point she's trying to make, I think she was just trying out a snappy bit of phrasemaking, not realising that real people are more than just fodder for sloganizing, co-opting to your agenda and self-aggrandizement. But it should be right there in the dictionary as the definition of the word 'crass'. How can you construct a politics based on identity and yet say something so galumphingly stupid?


People ain't people, they symbols. Use as you want.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

She does know that Emmett Till was lynched and murdered, right? 

Does she want the same to happen to Daisy Coleman? Dear god words fail me.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 20, 2013)

Platitudes not people!


----------



## Belushi (Oct 20, 2013)

So basically Laurie's lost a round of intersectionalist Top Trumps?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> She does know that Emmett Till was lynched and murdered, right?
> 
> Does she want the same to happen to Daisy Coleman? Dear god words fail me.


of course she doesn't - she wants nice easy chronologies  connected to oppressions. That's why it as deleted, the trade exposed.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

Belushi said:


> So basically Laurie's lost a round of intersectionalist Top Trumps?


She always loses.


----------



## caleb (Oct 20, 2013)

Reading a little more, I was wrong to describe Coleman as a "young woman" she was a girl/teenager of 14 at the time of the attack. And I think Penny's crass comparison is that simplistic: Coleman and Till were the same age.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> Reading a little more, I was wrong to describe Coleman as a "young woman" she was a girl/teenager of 14 at the time of the attack. And I think Penny's crass comparison is that simplistic: Coleman and Till were the same age.


Probably about the only sensible comparison that can be drawn to be honest, that they were the same age.

Certainly nothing I've read about Coleman suggests that she's about to become a martyr on the altar of feminism, she simply wants justice for what happened to her and her friend.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2013)

benedict said:


> I'm sure he talked in his his "kicking-off" book a lot of nonsense about dubstep being the sound of the youth revolution, or such like.


also the reports about the student riots included at a fair bit about the music (not the best link, but he flagged it up repeatedly) - describing him as a dubstep expert is jokey i think


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> She always loses.



She is the political debating equivalent of Plymouth Argyle, yes.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> She is the political debating equivalent of Plymouth Argyle, yes.


Well if she debates in real life like she does on here...


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

Belushi said:


> So basically Laurie's lost a round of intersectionalist Top Trumps?




crushed beneath the wheel


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> She has no idea what actually happened to either Daisy Coleman or Emmett Till, does she? Utterly crass statement to make.


Does it matter to her? She's a brand. The politics of convenience and childish prose. She'll trample over ideas and people in pursuit of the 'right' agenda. She's like Crabapple who brag about grossing six figures out of the Occupy movement. Every tragedy is a career move and article to sell brand Penny. Disingenuous to say the least. It's not even a recent thing. This has been going on for years.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

Theisticle said:


> Does it matter to her? She's a brand. The politics of convenience and childish prose. She'll trample over ideas and people in pursuit of the 'right' agenda. She's like Crabapple who brag about grossing six figures out of the Occupy movement. Every tragedy is a career move and article to sell brand Penny. Disingenuous to say the least. It's not even a recent thing. This has been going on for years.


Firky, how nice of you to drop by.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Firky, how nice of you to drop by.



Why do you think it's Liverworst?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Firky, how nice of you to drop by.



it's not firky


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> it's not firky


Are we sure?


----------



## Favelado (Oct 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> She always loses.



It's true, she doesn't play her own game very well.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Needless to say..


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

having re-read it, fairly sure.


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 21, 2013)

> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*
> This is scary and intimidating. Brennan is now sending threatening emails to my employers. I could do with some support here.





> *Sophia Banks* ‏@*sophiaphotos*  10h
> Sick and tired of cis women speaking for trans women + then getting sad when transphobes come at them. It's my daily life.



That about sums it up. Trying to garner sympathy after her appalling Emmett Till comment.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

TERF.

I'm just going to park that here a moment.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Blimey. Oh lord.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> TERF.
> 
> I'm just going to park that here a moment.





> Cathy Brennan is harassing fellow feminist Laurie Penny now; I'm enjoying this complete meltdown of the TERF movement.



Marvelous.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

What's TERF?


----------



## Belushi (Oct 21, 2013)

Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist

Learnt that two minutes ago


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists. Apparently.


----------



## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Learnt that two minutes ago


snap.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Oh.


----------



## andysays (Oct 21, 2013)

Has anyone coined the phrase "Twitter TERF wars" yet?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 21, 2013)

andysays said:


> Has anyone coined the phrase "Twitter TERF wars" yet?




damn you I was just going to make a gag along the lines of 'penny has been TERF'd out of the movement'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

andysays said:


> Has anyone coined the phrase "Twitter TERF wars" yet?


Good luck with that. I'm still bitter that my 'preboot' - to describe the recent version of _The Thing_ - didn't gain better traction


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

just gonna leave this here for you all. Speakers for Class Conference 2013 http://classonline.org.uk/conference/speakers


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

andysays said:


> Has anyone coined the phrase "Twitter TERF wars" yet?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> just gonna leave this here for you all. Speakers for Class Conference 2013 http://classonline.org.uk/conference/speakers


My what a lot of labour MPs. Costas lap is a good man fallen amongst thieves.


----------



## JimW (Oct 21, 2013)

Why the fuck do they even need a conference? it's all them talking to each other all the time anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

That union money got to be spent.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

JimW said:


> Why the fuck do they even need a conference? it's all them talking to each other all the time anyway.


Ref points?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

They should have a conf-off with IoI.


----------



## andysays (Oct 21, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> damn you I was just going to make a gag along the lines of 'penny has been TERF'd out of the movement'



Normally you're pretty quick out of the blocks with that sort of thing, but on this occasion,


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Are we sure?


i assumed that he was using RaverDrew's login, after this incoherent post.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ecause-youre-weak.316213/page-2#post-12641534


----------



## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> i assumed that he was using RaverDrew's login, after this incoherent post.
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ecause-youre-weak.316213/page-2#post-12641534



Why, and how the fuck do you work that one out ?  

utterly bizarre  

btw how's that sticking me on ignore going ?


----------



## Sue (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> just gonna leave this here for you all. Speakers for Class Conference 2013 http://classonline.org.uk/conference/speakers


Ah, Antonia Bance. Private school and Oxford educated ex Oxford city councillor. Absolutely detests the IWCA and didn't seem specially keen on her working class constituents either. A right piece of work.


----------



## belboid (Oct 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> They should have a conf-off with IoI.


this board really needs to use serif'ed fonts - if only for that abbreviation.

I keep reading it as having a conf-off with Laugh Out Loud.  Which still kinda works I suppose


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

belboid said:


> I keep reading it as having a conf-off with Laugh Out Loud.  Which still kinda works I suppose



I doubt that anyone enduring a Claire Fox-mediated discussion would be lolling. FMLing, maybe.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 22, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> just gonna leave this here for you all. Speakers for Class Conference 2013 http://classonline.org.uk/conference/speakers


Come friendly bombs


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 22, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> They should have a conf-off with IoI.



Brief and bloody but IoI take it on weight advantage.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 22, 2013)

why is there a "class" conference and the speakers are all MPs and journos?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why is there a "class" conference and the speakers are all MPs and journos?


‘CLASS’ here is a wacky acronym for a Westminster/TU bureaucrat-heavy thinktank.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 22, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> ‘CLASS’ here is a wacky acronym for a Westminster/TU bureaucrat-heavy thinktank.


C.L.A.S.S. - Concatenated Leadership of All Social Sectors.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2013)

Owen Jones, Ellie Mae AND Toynbee all under one roof?


----------



## emanymton (Oct 22, 2013)

So it's true then, there really is a hell.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 22, 2013)

emanymton said:


> So it's true then, there really is a hell.



But there's no heaven.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> But there's no heaven.



There is and Rachael Reeves, Hilary Wainwright and Ian Lavery are speaking.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> There is and Rachael Reeves, Hilary Wainwright and Ian Lavery are speaking.



Speaking of Hils, where's articul8?


----------



## coley (Oct 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> My what a lot of labour MPs. Costas lap is a good man fallen amongst thieves.


Though Ian lavery would have had more sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Though Ian lavery would have had more sense.


Than to do what? Get involved in CLASS? Sounds right up his street.


----------



## coley (Oct 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Than to do what? Get involved in CLASS? Sounds right up his street.


Always found him to be more grassroots rather than getting involved in these kinds of circuses but he's been at Westminster long enough to have lost touch with reality I suppose.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2013)

This is an attempt by union based people who share Lavery's soft-left inside labour politics to get the ear of the labour leadership. This is exactly what someone like him would be doing - no need to argue anything about losing touch with reality really. These are the same people he worked with before 2010.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2013)

Has Sunny got a thinktank/quango/marcom job lined up?

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/1...racy-is-coming-to-an-end-in-its-current-form/

Oh:



> I’m working with the BBC to get a documentary off the ground; I’ve been invited to speak at two TEDx talks abroad (and have to prepare) on violence against women in India; I’ve started lecturing p/t at Kingston University. Plus, I want the time and space to work on new projects.



PS:



> This site also gave a platform to lots of people to build their name (including Laurie Penny, Owen Jones, Adam Bienkov, Ellie O’Hagan, Tim Wigmore, Tim Fenton and many others).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Has Sunny got a thinktank/quango/marcom job lined up?
> 
> http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/1...racy-is-coming-to-an-end-in-its-current-form/
> 
> ...


He's very impressed with himself for being on the internet for 8 years isn't he?


----------



## killer b (Oct 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> > This site also gave a platform to lots of people to build their name (including Laurie Penny, Owen Jones, Adam Bienkov, Ellie O’Hagan, Tim Wigmore, Tim Fenton and many others).


christ. so that's who's to blame.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 25, 2013)

ellie still doing the unite community thing for london?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 25, 2013)

I think I tweeted CLASS about 5 times to ask if I could contribute, as an actual person-on-the-ground-who-lives-near-poors, and unsurprisingly got zero response, and the only time Owen bothered to reply to a more genuine question about this collection of smart cunts I just got the usual "bore off" response he gives when challenged.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2013)

Says Lee Jasper in a blog post mentioning a ‘leadership’ award he recently received:



> There is no "I" in the word team and this award is recognition of the work of myself and many others who are far too numerous to mention.



http://leejasper.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/a-big-thank-you.html

But wait:



> ...In the circumstances, it therefore seems only fair to conclude that – at best – the LRCJC is nothing more than a name, a paper network of groups that Mr Jasper has links to (what the 'white left' might call a 'front organisation'), with no real purpose other than getting his name into the press...



http://www.blowe.org.uk/2012/08/why-is-it-so-hard-to-find-out-about.html


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 25, 2013)

but lee, there is a U in cunt.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 25, 2013)

that probably works better phonetically.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 25, 2013)

or not at all, I dunno.  *wanders off*


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Says Lee Jasper in a blog post mentioning a ‘leadership’ award he recently received:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## articul8 (Oct 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Speaking of Hils, where's articul8?



I'm still here


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2013)

articul8 said:


> I'm still here


Some days you really do remind me of Morrie from _GoodFellas_


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Says Lee Jasper in a blog post mentioning a ‘leadership’ award he recently received:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm so absolutely shocked that known mendacious cunt Lee Jasper (see various Brixton Splash threads in the Brixton forum, but most of all the 2012 one) has been revealed to be a mendacious cunt again! Shocked, I tell you!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> or not at all, I dunno.  *wanders off*



Works for me!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm so absolutely shocked that known mendacious cunt Lee Jasper (see various Brixton Splash threads in the Brixton forum, but most of all the 2012 one) has been revealed to be a mendacious cunt again! Shocked, I tell you!!


TYPICAL RESPONSE FROM THE WHITE LEFT


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Works for me!


 
I love you, but you hate me.  it's like a song by Morrissey.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm so absolutely shocked that known mendacious cunt Lee Jasper (see various Brixton Splash threads in the Brixton forum, but most of all the 2012 one) has been revealed to be a mendacious cunt again! Shocked, I tell you!!



Your winnings, sir.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> TYPICAL RESPONSE FROM THE WHITE LEFT





Assuming that I'm a member of the white left would be just another way in which Lee Jasper was wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

L-aurie:



> Kneejerk calls for a ban on Facebook's beheading video obscure the issue: the fate of the victim



So do kneejerk calls against a ban. So does everything not focused on the victim and how they got there. You just wrote a piece that doesn't merntion who they are or how they got there. What about thought through and well argued cases for banning? No, the trick that everyone else is kneejerk and stupid.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

What does:


> That's what those who are invested in social justice should be doing more of, rather than simply calling for a ban on whatever we don't like this week.



Invested? How where? Why use this language? Us? Who? Social jsutice? What's that?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What does:
> 
> 
> Invested? How where? Why use this language? Us? Who? Social jsutice? What's that?









Trust fund-friendly!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

> The question of lads' mags has been irritatingly divisive, at a time when there are a great many pressing issues of structural sexism to consider and only a limited number of hours to argue on Twitter.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 26, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Trust fund-friendly!


they have a well twee market at their agm as well
organic olives, anyone? 



> I arrived at the Triodos annual meeting with some trepidation. As an accountant-turned-musician, I’m usually horrified by the idea of returning to business environments. While suspecting this might be different, I really had no idea what to expect. I needn’t have worried. If nothing else, the ethical marketplace would have entertained me all afternoon. Chocolate; smoked almonds; olive oil; there is definitely more than one advantage to choosing an ethical bank!
> 
> The biggest surprise, however, was that I found the meeting itself both engaging and enlightening, inspiring me to think more deeply about the ethos of the bank. Triodos takes its public responsibility seriously, and its new building in Bristol is a perfect illustration of this. Before the meeting, I wondered why such a fuss was being made of these offi ces. After hearing about the ethically-sourced wood and glass, organic paint, locally produced artwork, and pleasant relaxation areas, I finally understood. Triodos sticks to its values in everything that it does. Many companies present a faceless front to the world, but with Triodos, nothing is further from the truth.
> The annual meeting showed me that Triodos’ top executives are friendly and approachable, with a real desire to tell the stories behind their work. As well as the new building, stories were told of investors, customers, and every aspect of the organisation you can imagine. The flow of money, usually a rather dull subject, was brought to life in a way that I never thought possible. I was struck by the realisation that if I ask myself what I would like the ideal bank to do, the answer is exactly what Triodos offers: it looks after my spare money and uses it to improve society. It’s easy to feel powerless in a world in which inequality is rife, but I came away from the meeting inspired in the knowledge that, simply by choosing the right place to store my spare cash, I can actually make a difference. Next week I’ll give priority to something I should have done months ago: I will finally transfer my remaining savings to Triodos!
> *WWW.TRIODOS.CO.UK/ANNUALMEETING *


(source)


----------



## love detective (Oct 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> L-aurie:
> 
> So do kneejerk calls against a ban. So does everything not focused on the victim and how they got there. You just wrote a piece that doesn't merntion who they are or how they got there. What about thought through and well argued cases for banning? No, the trick that everyone else is kneejerk and stupid.



This bit:-




			
				laurie penny said:
			
		

> None of them led with the surely important question of whether the woman in the video is actually OK



Is she seriously pondering as to whether the woman who was beheaded is OK or not?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

love detective said:


> This bit:-
> 
> 
> 
> Is she seriously pondering as to whether the woman who was beheaded is OK or not?


 Maybe get an interview l-aurie.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 26, 2013)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 26, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> they have a well twee market at their agm as well
> organic olives, anyone?
> 
> 
> (source)





> *As an accountant-turned-musician*


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 26, 2013)

i think it was the delight in smoked almonds that got me the most. i didn't even know they existed


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 26, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> i think it was the delight in smoked almonds that got me the most. i didn't even know they existed


I once had to attend the Schumacher Lectures, complete with Triodos presentations, for work. It was ‘offered’ to me as a fun thing to do on a Saturday, in my own free time.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 26, 2013)

Good thing we live in a meritocracy and the best writers get the most prominence otherwise we wouldn't get such expert and insightful comment as Laurie's latest article.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe get an interview l-aurie.



They could discuss no longer attached head oppression vs head still attached privilege


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 26, 2013)

love detective said:


> This bit:-
> 
> 
> 
> Is she seriously pondering as to whether the woman who was beheaded is OK or not?



We should probably accept it's better for all Humanity that she claims to be a journalist and not a doctor. Last time I encountered a medical professional who was that inept they were working for ATOS.


----------



## FNG (Oct 26, 2013)

Lee bandies around terms like Kipper at BAME peeps that disagree with him


----------



## revol68 (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not one for banning shit but banning things on Facebook is a pretty tame form of censorship, afterall porn is banned on facebook but I don't think anyone will kick up a fuss about their human rights being violated, instead they just go googling for hamsters. 

As for lads mags in supermarkets, not bothered about them being removed or not, more concerned about the dire politics that's entailed in seeing Zoo and Nuts (circulation approx 60,000) as a relevant fight, not to mention the patronising theory of how people interact with media implicit in it.

Also videos of child abuse and rape are illegal, surely videos of chopping someones head off falls under the same category, no? Does it say something about our relationship to sex and violence that a video of a rape would have been banned without hesitation yet one of a beheading isn't, does a sexual element to violence resonate with taboos about sex and shame? I mean why do I feel a less visceral repulsion at the thought of beheading videos than I do to those of sexual abuse. You wouldn't imagine anyone would argue that such videos shouldn't be banned all together, let alone facebook, and The Guardian wouldn't even dream of printing an article against them being banned.


Just throwing that out there, I'm off to the pub.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 26, 2013)

revol68 said:


> instead they just go googling for hamsters.



Is this some especially niche perversion I haven't yet encountered?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Is this some especially niche perversion I haven't yet encountered?



Out of a post broaching pretty controversial issues about violence, sex and taboos, you choose to comment on that, for shame Bakunin, for shame.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 27, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> i think it was the delight in smoked almonds that got me the most. i didn't even know they existed



Highly addictive, too!


----------



## J Ed (Nov 1, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/01/woman-feminist-shout-down-ruby-tandoh

Ruby Tandoh is so brilliant, she actually seems to get what actual people think rather than want to impose her own bizarre standards on top of them before getting upset when they don't exactly fit.


----------



## Balbi (Nov 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/01/woman-feminist-shout-down-ruby-tandoh
> 
> Ruby Tandoh is so brilliant, she actually seems to get what actual people think rather than want to impose her own bizarre standards on top of them before getting upset when they don't exactly fit.



_"She's just like one of us!!!!_


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Highly addictive, too!



Unless it's bitter almonds, you'd only try those once...


----------



## J Ed (Nov 1, 2013)

Is it me or does Laurie Penny look really happy here at having found people in black face for Halloween?


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 1, 2013)

Probably a simple narcissism to look good in a photo that highlights racism. You know, priorities.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Is it me or does Laurie Penny look really happy here at having found people in black face for Halloween?



I'd be happier if she challenged them for being 'black face' - did she? 

Why these people all thought that was a good idea for a costume I don't know. Pillocks.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2013)

Well spotted prol dem:



> I can absolutely understand why many people around my age don't want to vote in the upcoming elections, as long as they can understand why they deserve a smack and a dose of Susan B Anthony: suffrage is the pivotal right. If you opt out of the one effort that makes you a relevant civic entity, you have forfeited your right to complain about anything the government does, and you have betrayed all the other young people who do want the right to be heard. Generations of suffragettes, civil rights protesters and trades unionists did not fight and die so that you could sit on the sofa thinking about how the government never listens to you.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 2, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I'd be happier if she challenged them for being 'black face' - did she?
> 
> Why these people all thought that was a good idea for a costume I don't know. Pillocks.



Apparently she did

*Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed20h
I spoke to them about it; they insisted that they were dressed as a Banksy painting, so the black paint on their white faces was a-ok.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Apparently she did
> 
> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed20h
> I spoke to them about it; they insisted that they were dressed as a Banksy painting, so the black paint on their white faces was a-ok.


Then I am happy that she did. Fair play to her. It's not easy challenging strangers.

What banksy painting could they be dressed up as?


----------



## J Ed (Nov 2, 2013)

I don't know but they must be awful people, hipster racists


----------



## Balbi (Nov 2, 2013)

_"Yeah, I mean I was into the whole racism thing back in the 1600's, before slavery commercialised it"_


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> They could discuss no longer attached head oppression vs head still attached privilege



Heightism.


----------



## killer b (Nov 2, 2013)

Balbi said:


> _"Yeah, I mean I was into the whole racism thing back in the 1600's, before slavery commercialised it"_


 I think i love you.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 3, 2013)

Laurie Penny and Richard Seymour on Brand, Manarchism and Brocialism
http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...-brand-iconoclasm-and-womans-place-revolution


----------



## agricola (Nov 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Laurie Penny and Richard Seymour on Brand, Manarchism and Brocialism
> http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...-brand-iconoclasm-and-womans-place-revolution


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Laurie Penny and Richard Seymour on Brand, Manarchism and Brocialism
> http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...-brand-iconoclasm-and-womans-place-revolution



What a load of utter shit. The pair of them are pathetic and can fuck right off. Wish I had a platform in the media so I could construct strawman caricatures of my political opponents. I'd find much better things to call Penny than a brocialist.

The cheek of talking safe spaces and then letting Russell Brand guest edit the magazine you work for. Then complaining he's a sexist after he's done so and once the revenue from having a special celebrity edited edition of the staggers has been banked.

Well why not resign from the Staggers on principle then Laurie, rather than aid a Manarchist in what they're doing? No chance. She didn't resign when they were getting ad money from homophobic christians claiming to be able to cure gay people of their illness, I doubt some minor hypocrisy like this would get in her way. She's more than happy to defend Niall Ferguson (fellow oxbridge twat and celebrity politico) when he's outed himself as a homophobe but if you're not an intersectional liberal with a private school and oxbrdige background you're a bigot.

Then there's this notion of Brand being a leftist. Where's that come from? What kind of "leftist" is he, the borderline anti-semitic David Icke/Infowars kind? I never went to the meeting where Brand was confirmed as an official member of the political left, and he's been pretty vague about it himself. I disown the bastard from day one, they put him in charge of their fucking shit moribund liberal magazine, and I'm the brocialist and they're the glorious intersectional crusaders against oppression.

The bottom line is if you subscribe to any materialist analysis of the world, you are going to spend your political life being accused of sexism and homophobia by Laurie Penny unless you renounce your 20th Century misguided notions of socialism you're the enemy. Anyone too stupid, to uneducated, to technologically illiterate to partake in the narrow and elitist discourse of intersectionalism either at university or on twitter is a rape apologist, misogynist, privilege keeping piece of shit to these people. That this means they can pour scorn and contempt and effectively write off millions of people, for being white, being male, being healthy, being thin, being [insert non-transferable privilege category], it means they can politically rationalise their deep-felt hatred for anything that's not in their tiny fucking bubble. And whilst they do this the left withers and dies, unable to win support from anyone outside this exclusive club, and the far-right wins the support of millions of alienated people all throughout Europe. They'll hang the fucking lot of 'em, and they've got nothing whatsoever to counter it with.

And this one made me laugh.



> I know, I know that asking that female people be treated as fully human and equally deserving of liberation makes me an iron-knickered feminist killjoy and probably a closet liberal...



Probably? Closet? Let me be absolutely definite. Laurie Penny is a liberal. Laurie Penny is more liberal than Edmund Burke. LIBERAL. That's why she was encouraging people to vote Lib Dem at the last general election. And why she works for the New Statesman. Let's get that quote up again shall we:



> If you opt out of the one effort that makes you a relevant civic entity, you have forfeited your right to complain about anything the government does



Only participation within the confines of liberal democracy makes you a relevant civic entity according to Penny. It's not just a tool from which more radical demands can be made, but the end in itself. Note the exact wording, the use of the word civic as in civil society. Only those fully invested in liberal democracy have any "relevance" the rest are untermensch. This is Liberalism 101. This is statement John Locke would've been more than happy with. Yes Laurie you're a liberal and I'm going to call you a liberal, coz it's a damn sight more accurate than you dismissing anyone who objects to your deeply flawed and narcissitic political theory manarchist. Tough shit.

And this passive aggressive bit of bullshit at the end:



> Seymour and I come from different left traditions with dispiritingly similar track records of ignoring structural gender oppression, and because he is a chap you’ll be nicer to him in the comments.



The reason you get such a hard time in the comments Laurie is because you're an idiot, a shit writer, and the only reason you even have the job is because the British media is notoriously narrow and drawn from a tiny group of well-educated middle class careerists such as yourself. Had you been born poor you wouldn't be doing this job. You're a living breathing testament to how far someone with fuck all merit but the right sort of background can go in Britain, not the first and not the last.

And fuck Richard Seymour too. Barely out of his own Trotskyite rape-cult he's now talking as if he's some sort of authority on dealing with sexism within the left. It's like listening to Jimmy Savile's chauffeur opine about how to spot a peadophile. How did the years he spent defending the SWP and Respect from accusations of engrained sexism and a dysfunctional and poisonous party culture get forgotten so quickly? I don't wanna here this "I knew nothing, I'd heard the rumours but it was all just hearsay" bullshit coz if I, as a teenage idiot who doesn't even live in London, could work out the SWP was a disgusting cult within my first few interactions with them then this big brain heavyweight's got no excuse for going along with it. I reckon the dirty fucker only left the SWP once he realised his career as a verbose bullshit artist within the liberal media would be in jeopardy if he stuck around, it's not like was anything but a stupid swappie loyalist practically his whole political life.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 3, 2013)

Absolutely brilliant, spot on.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 3, 2013)

What i liked about her piece was the line: "I’m on team Russell, not team Robert". No you're not, this is why you interned with the labour party, you are team robert. _Team articul8._


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 3, 2013)

After arguing why people should vote for the Lib Dems in 2010, she now claims to have voted Labour in the last election. What a liberal!


----------



## killer b (Nov 3, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's like listening to Jimmy Savile's chauffeur opine about how to spot a peadophile.


beautiful.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 3, 2013)

Superb post, Delroy Booth


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 3, 2013)

Balbi said:


> _"Yeah, I mean I was into the whole racism thing back in the 1600's, before slavery commercialised it"_



i read the protocols back in 1901 before they were cool


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2013)

Hear not here Delroy Booth


----------



## Superdupastupor (Nov 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i read the protocols back in 1901 before they were cool


i knew blood libel was fake before it was cool

m


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 3, 2013)

Not sure I understand that tenuous explanation for blacking up there. Rule of thumb- If you can't explain why you are wearing blackface in less than the time it takes someone to kick you right up the arse then don't do it.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 3, 2013)

Brilliant post Delroy Booth


----------



## Nice one (Nov 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What i liked about her piece was the line: "I’m on team Russell, not team Robert". No you're not, this is why you interned with the labour party, you are team robert. _Team articul8._



team jack monroe?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 3, 2013)

And I had a look at banksy paintings last night - couldn't see one depicting a group of black people. Now I'm not claiming to have seen every banksy ever done but if they were going as a banksy painting I would have expected it to be one that was recognisable.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 3, 2013)

so its pomo ironic blackface then? I hate the world


----------



## Nice one (Nov 3, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> And I had a look at banksy paintings last night - couldn't see one depicting a group of black people. Now I'm not claiming to have seen every banksy ever done but if they were going as a banksy painting I would have expected it to be one that was recognisable.


 kudos to this guy


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 3, 2013)

Nice one said:


> kudos to this guy



Now he had the right idea, love it


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 3, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> so its pomo ironic blackface then? I hate the world


If she had any sense she's have asked them which banksy it was they were supposed to be.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 3, 2013)

Superdupastupor said:


> i knew blood libel was fake before it was cool
> 
> m



i knew who killed jesus before his biography came out


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 3, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> If she had any sense she's have asked them which banksy it was they were supposed to be.



Boy meets girl.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i knew who killed jesus before his biography came out



I was anti-Zionist before Theodor Herzl came up with secular Zionism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 3, 2013)

Helen Lewis having a bit of a hissy fit after being, ahem, _called out_ on saying it's 'wrong' to protest outside the homes of people who are responsible for Bad Things.

"Laters, Twitter"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 3, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Well why not resign from the Staggers on principle then Laurie, rather than aid a Manarchist in what they're doing? No chance. She didn't resign when they were getting ad money from homophobic christians claiming to be able to cure gay people of their illness, I doubt some minor hypocrisy like this would get in her way. She's more than happy to defend Niall Ferguson (fellow oxbridge twat and celebrity politico) when he's outed himself as a homophobe but if you're not an intersectional liberal with a private school and oxbrdige background you're a bigot.
> 
> Then there's this notion of Brand being a leftist. Where's that come from? What kind of "leftist" is he, the borderline anti-semitic David Icke/Infowars kind? I never went to the meeting where Brand was confirmed as an official member of the political left, and he's been pretty vague about it himself. I disown the bastard from day one, they put him in charge of their fucking shit moribund liberal magazine, and I'm the brocialist and they're the glorious intersectional crusaders against oppression.



Brand spouts left-liberal homilies like a cock spouts spunk - i.e. whenever the right buttons are pushed.  This leads people from the left to believe that he's "one of us", and right-wingers to believe he's a dangerous leftie.
Fact is, he's a "useful idiot" who, like the _New Statesman_, and indeed most of its' contributors, will encourage support for a party that has no interest in representing the hopes and needs of their core constituency.

As for "them" being any sort of crusaders at all, as I recall Brand has never physically struggled for his beliefs, and Ms Penny has publicly bricked it at the thought of actually doing her job during a riot.  If they're crusaders, Sam Allerdyce is the AntiChrist!



> The bottom line is if you subscribe to any materialist analysis of the world, you are going to spend your political life being accused of sexism and homophobia by Laurie Penny unless you renounce your 20th Century misguided notions of socialism you're the enemy. Anyone too stupid, to uneducated, to technologically illiterate to partake in the narrow and elitist discourse of intersectionalism either at university or on twitter is a rape apologist, misogynist, privilege keeping piece of shit to these people.



If nothing else, their "logic" does highlight to anyone not of their elitist milieu what a bunch of pus-cocked wank their ideas are (I won't say intersectionalism _per se_ is, because what they do with the notion is an abuse of it).



> That this means they can pour scorn and contempt and effectively write off millions of people, for being white, being male, being healthy, being thin, being [insert non-transferable privilege category]...



I'd contend that what it truly means to some of the _intersectionalistas_ is the possibility of retaining their own class, gender and race-based prejudices, while decrying others who actually openly express those prejudices, or who *seem to be from a social milieu where such prejudices are thought by the intersectionalistas to manifest*_.
_


> it means they can politically rationalise their deep-felt hatred for anything that's not in their tiny fucking bubble.



Not hatred, FEAR.



> And whilst they do this the left withers and dies, unable to win support from anyone outside this exclusive club, and the far-right wins the support of millions of alienated people all throughout Europe. They'll hang the fucking lot of 'em, and they've got nothing whatsoever to counter it with.



"The left" withers and dies because those who purport to carry the "left" flag, from Labour leftward, have mostly, except for the grouplets, made an accommodation with parliamentary democracy, and more or less accepted neoliberalism as a fait accompli to work with, not against.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 3, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Helen Lewis having a bit of a hissy fit after being, ahem, _called out_ on saying it's 'wrong' to protest outside the homes of people who are responsible for Bad Things.
> 
> "Laters, Twitter"



No self-interest involved there then.


----------



## discokermit (Nov 3, 2013)

this thread is like watching you all jizz on biscuits then gobble 'em all up.
ugh.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 3, 2013)

Mmmmm, salty.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 3, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Helen Lewis having a bit of a hissy fit after being, ahem, _called out_ on saying it's 'wrong' to protest outside the homes of people who are responsible for Bad Things.
> 
> "Laters, Twitter"



it's ok to destroy families and lives as long as you get other people to do it for you. Liberalism is brilliant


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Absolutely brilliant, spot on.



Yep, Mrs. Booth's boy hit that one straight outta the park.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 3, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was anti-Zionist before Theodor Herzl came up with secular Zionism.



Quality never goes out of style.


----------



## caleb (Nov 3, 2013)

> *LP:* I attended two talks last year at which I was told by older white men in left academic circles that feminism was either irrelevant to class struggle or actively its enemy.



One of these two talks consisted of a debate between David Harvey, Paul Mattick Jr., Loren Goldner, and Andrew Kliman. A video is online of the incident. Penny insults them by proclaiming to be "fans of [their] work" (it doesnt fucking show) and then asks why they didnt mention women in their talks. None of them responded by saying "feminism was either irrelevant to class struggle or actively its enemy".


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 3, 2013)

> @*PennyRed*
> This macro of one of my quotes is great. 'youth power's equivalent of the v-sign is the camera phone held aloft'



LOL


----------



## J Ed (Nov 3, 2013)

http://rosswolfe.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/radical-interpretations-of-the-present-crisis/



> Laurie Penny: How is listening to a panel like this, with four white males telling us things we already largely know, helpful to us in overcoming the crisis? Why was nothing mentioned about rights, gender, or the family? Why were these treated as side issues?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 3, 2013)

caleb said:


> One of these two talks consisted of a debate between David Harvey, Paul Mattick Jr., Loren Goldner, and Andrew Kliman. A video is online of the incident. Penny insults them by proclaiming to be "fans of [their] work" (it doesnt fucking show) and then asks why they didnt mention women in their talks. None of them responded by saying "feminism was either irrelevant to class struggle or actively its enemy".



Yep. Here it is. She pops up at around 1 hour 37.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm glad she took those misogynists to task though. Harvey has gotten away for far too long with sexist tracts like _The Limits to Capital for Men _and _The Enigma of Male Capital and the Male Crises of Capitalism_


----------



## J Ed (Nov 3, 2013)

Wot Penny said they said 



> LP: I attended two talks last year at which I was told by older white men in left academic circles that feminism was either irrelevant to class struggle or actively its enemy.



Wot they actually said



> LG: I am really sorry that I was born a white male and spent 40 years studying capitalist crisis. I think the question of the disappearance of the one-paycheck family — though I am no fan of the bourgeois nuclear family — is one key aspect of the contraction of social reproduction. This can lead to a fruitful discussion of some gender issues.
> 
> If one looks over a 200-year period — from the very labor-intensive capitalism that existed in the early 19th century to today — there is no question that there has been a long-term trend towards the rise of constant capital and the diminution of variable capital, albeit with a lot of fluctuations along the way. The credit system was necessary to uphold the value of different claims to wealth well past the time they otherwise would have collapsed due to lack of profit. The goal of socialism is, as Andrew said, the abolition of value, the destruction of the regulation of social production by socially necessary labor time.
> 
> ...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I'm glad she took those misogynists to task though. Harvey has gotten away for far too long with sexist tracts like _The Limits to Capital for Men _and _The Enigma of Male Capital and the Male Crises of Capitalism_



Not to mention A Brief *HIS*tory of Neoliberalism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2013)

articul8 said:


> On what grounds does Tory cunt and cheese-thief Anthony Worral-Thompson get to spout his reactionary shite on Question Time?
> 
> It sounds hideous - *Ken Clarke*, Harriet Harman, Shirley Williams, Laurie Pennie and that beardy twat.




hardman Ken is banging on about the viel again, saying it can'tbe worn in court- a contentious point but then he adds



> "It's a most peculiar costume for people to adopt in the 21st century."



just to make sure we all know who he's talking to really.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 4, 2013)

'Goes into court in his kaftan and a bell. This doesn't go down at all well. They can handle the kaftan, they can't handle the bell. So, there's this judge sitting there in a cape like fucking Batman and this really rather far out looking hat...So, he looks at the Coalman and says "What's all this? This is a court, man. This ain't fancy dress." And the Coalman looks at him and says "You think _you_ look normal, your honour?" Cunt gave him two years.'


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2013)

I shouldn't read the NS site. Just managed to enjoy Chuka 'man who would be king' Umma doing labour apologetics in a speech on class, race and social mobility. Shameful shit.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 4, 2013)

"Social mobility".  Why the fuck should anyone have to 'move' socially just to have a crack at a decent life?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> "Social mobility".  Why the fuck should anyone have to 'move' socially just to have a crack at a decent life?



you've obviously never represented a working class constituency.  they really are ghastly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> "Social mobility".  Why the fuck should anyone have to 'move' socially just to have a crack at a decent life?




speech finishes with a Dr King quote as well.

heres the lot

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...eech-race-class-and-social-mobility-full-text


Investment in education, re-open sure starts, the gains we made in power are being rolled back etc etc I've got my eye on a cabinet position within the next five years etc


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 4, 2013)

i have a dream


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> speech finishes with a Dr King quote as well.
> 
> heres the lot
> 
> ...



The very first sentence makes me want to stop.



> We want to create a society in which the son of a bus driver can go on not only to run but own the bus company.



I'd rather a society where the bus company is owned by _everyone_, thanks. Also, "son of a bus driver"? Nu Labour, the saviour of Hardworking People as epitomised by such folk as [_insert lazy, romanticised placeholder of the salt-of-the-earth, flat-cap wearing proletarian. "Yes Guvna, right you are Sir, up the apple and pears, on the old dog 'n bone, etc"_]. Let's have some imagination at least, Chuka.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> The very first sentence makes me want to stop.


the very first sentence makes me want to puke:





> As ever, it’s great to be back here at Herbert Smith.


stomach-churning


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 4, 2013)

"Wouldn't it be ace if the daughter of a greengrocer could go on to not only run but own the country."


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> "Wouldn't it be ace if the daughter of a greengrocer could go on to not only run but own the country."


why not? we've tried a grocer's daughter. can't be much worse.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> why not? we've tried a grocer's daughter. can't be much worse.



Grocer, greengrocer, candlestick maker; all the same unless you were born in the 1950s. I go to a supermarket, Pickman. You old codger.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Grocer, greengrocer, candlestick maker; all the same unless you were born in the 1950s. I go to a supermarket, Pickman. You old codger.


yeh you prefer to feed money to multinationals than to help a local business.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh you prefer to feed money to multinationals than to help a local business.



Touche mon capitan, as they say on Star Trek. I admit it, I'm a corporatist collaborator.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 4, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Laurie Penny and Richard Seymour on Brand, Manarchism and Brocialism
> http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...-brand-iconoclasm-and-womans-place-revolution



What really rankles with me, I think, is that even from reasonably thoughtful people, Laurie seems to get a free pass as she writes her way through her journey towards whatever the fuck politics she's going to end up espousing. Everyone evolves, politically, and loads of people have done it publicly on twitter or places like here - but being _paid_ while you're doing it, for writing columns _about_ it, and STILL regularly featuring in "most influential figures on the Left" lists seems to me hugely damaging. Learning your politics from someone who doesn't have a fucking clue about their own let alone those she purports to fight for. Jesus.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Touche mon capitan, as they say on Star Trek. I admit it, I'm a corporatist collaborator.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


>



Is this for my shopping transgressions or blatant trekker geekdom?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

whichever you feel fits best


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I shouldn't read the NS site. Just managed to enjoy Chuka 'man who would be king' Umma doing labour apologetics in a speech on class, race and social mobility. Shameful shit.



He's a shameful excuse for an MP - someone who got elected off the back of his constituency having the demographic it does (part council estate working class, part middle-class liberal), and not for anything he's put into the community.
In fact, like his predeccessor, he's a "taker".  he sounds off like he represents us, but he's totally fucking out of touch with us.  His "blackness" gives him cred with the liberals, but it's meaningless when he and his party are happy to shit on people based on their position on the social ladder.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> The very first sentence makes me want to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd rather a society where the bus company is owned by _everyone_, thanks. Also, "son of a bus driver"? Nu Labour, the saviour of Hardworking People as epitomised by such folk as [_insert lazy, romanticised placeholder of the salt-of-the-earth, flat-cap wearing proletarian. "Yes Guvna, right you are Sir, up the apple and pears, on the old dog 'n bone, etc"_]. Let's have some imagination at least, Chuka.



He's a machine politician. Imagination isn't in his lexicon. Neither are honour, decency or democracy.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2013)

discokermit said:


> this thread is like watching you all jizz on biscuits then gobble 'em all up.
> ugh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's a shameful excuse for an MP - someone who got elected off the back of his constituency having the demographic it does (part council estate working class, part middle-class liberal), and not for anything he's put into the community.
> In fact, like his predeccessor, he's a "taker".  he sounds off like he represents us, but he's totally fucking out of touch with us.  His "blackness" gives him cred with the liberals, but it's meaningless when he and his party are happy to shit on people based on their position on the social ladder.




its brand building within a safe seat right? So when the time comes in 5-10 years so long as he doesn't do anything to piss off the central machine and plays as close to party line as possible he'll be in with a shot for senior politician roles. The anti-squatter stuff recently should show us all where exactly his bread is buttered. On the side of a labour party that has basically become a 'me too' to every tory policy. Or 'me too, only I'll be even more of a cunt'


----------



## co-op (Nov 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's a shameful excuse for an MP - someone who got elected off the back of his constituency having the demographic it does (part council estate working class, part middle-class liberal), and not for anything he's put into the community.





Not forgetting that in his nomination he was up against the uber-slime king himself, Lambeth Labour Party leader Steve Reed who managed to piss off the local Labour Party with his effortless anti-charisma and arrogant assumption that his winning was a done deal. Even Chuku was better than that.

Reeds went on to win in Croydon North now, god knows what kind of wanker he must have been up against there, although there were rumours that he went on a few courses to learn how to appear less slimy. Personally I can't see how it'd work unless he had a total lobotomy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> its brand building within a safe seat right? So when the time comes in 5-10 years so long as he doesn't do anything to piss off the central machine and plays as close to party line as possible he'll be in with a shot for senior politician roles.



Yep. I've been saying similar since 2010.  He's massively ambitious, effortlessly emolient to the party hierarchy, and does *just enough* constituency work to not piss off his voters, although that said, his deciding to speak out for his constituents (and those of adjacent MPs with Brixton wards in their constituencies) by decrying the "Thatcher's Dead" party didn't play too well!



> The anti-squatter stuff recently should show us all where exactly his bread is buttered. On the side of a labour party that has basically become a 'me too' to every tory policy. Or 'me too, only I'll be even more of a cunt'



Yep.  Three mainstream parties, all of which have excised layers of internal democracy, weakening the degree to which the membership can hold the parliamentary parties to account; all of which have made complete and craven accommodations with neoliberalism; all of which claim to support the people, when what they really support is the layer of capitalism that'll give them sinecures in return for greasing the wheels of power.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

co-op said:


> Not forgetting that in his nomination he was up against the uber-slime king himself, Lambeth Labour Party leader Steve Reed who managed to piss off the local Labour Party with his effortless anti-charisma and arrogant assumption that his winning was a done deal. Even Chuku was better than that.



A fair point. Reed, for me, represented everything that was bad about Lambeth Labour in the noughties - the riding roughshod over procedure and process; the obfuscation of such misdeeds; the culture of backroom deals that I'd hoped had mostly died in the '70s; the sheer undemocratic nature of Lambeth Labour on so many local issues.
Even in the worst of the much over-hyped and exaggerated "loony left" days, Lambeth Labour was at least more democratically-accountable in terms of their own internal procedures.  Reed ruled over a culture of impunity.



> Reeds went on to win in Croydon North now, god knows what kind of wanker he must have been up against there, although there were rumours that he went on a few courses to learn how to appear less slimy. Personally I can't see how it'd work unless he had a total lobotomy.



As I said at the time, poor Croydon North!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

steve reed needs to be kicked in the cock by every single person in lambeth.  only then can we start on truth and reconciliation.


----------



## apoptosis (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> What a load of utter shit. The pair of them are pathetic and can fuck right off. Wish I had a platform in the media so I could construct strawman caricatures of my political opponents. I'd find much better things to call Penny than a brocialist.
> 
> The cheek of talking safe spaces and then letting Russell Brand guest edit the magazine you work for. Then complaining he's a sexist after he's done so and once the revenue from having a special celebrity edited edition of the staggers has been banked.
> 
> ...



I disagree, tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> I disagree, tbh.


Bye.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

Apoptosis' arrival above reminds me that Delroy's rant on this thread is doing the rounds on twitter, and has been the trigger for some rowing at the intersectionalist / Marxist, erm, intersection.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> I disagree, tbh.


because...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> steve reed needs to be kicked in the cock by every single person in lambeth.  only then can we start on truth and reconciliation.


why shouldn't people in the rest of london get to join in?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Apoptosis' arrival above reminds me that Delroy's rant on this thread is doing the rounds on twitter, and has been the trigger for some rowing at the intersectionalist / Marxist, erm, intersection.



If I'd have known it would blow up on twitter I'd have gone to more effort and been a bit more thoughtful in what I said. 

Believe it or not when I'm not venting about Penny's crypto-liberalism I've got a slightly more nuanced and serious attitude to intersectionalism and so forth. I'd reconsider at least a part of what I wrote with that in mind, but then again there's no point crying over spilt milk.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> why shouldn't people in the rest of london get to join in?



you're right, i'm sorry.


----------



## Balbi (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> If I'd have known it would blow up on twitter I'd have gone to more effort and been a bit more thoughtful in what I said.
> 
> Believe it or not when I'm not venting about Penny's crypto-liberalism I've got a slightly more nuanced and serious attitude to intersectionalism and so forth. I'd reconsider at least a part of what I wrote with that in mind, but then again there's no point crying over spilt milk.



Bloody jude innit *waves at Jude*


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> If I'd have known it would blow up on twitter I'd have gone to more effort and been a bit more thoughtful in what I said.
> 
> Believe it or not when I'm not venting about Penny's crypto-liberalism I've got a slightly more nuanced and serious attitude to intersectionalism and so forth. I'd reconsider at least a part of what I wrote with that in mind, but then again there's no point crying over spilt milk.



Yes, to be honest I'm a bit surprised that the response hasn't been to just focus on your crudest, rantiest, formulations and use them to dismiss your views as a whole. I suspect that you hit on a sweet spot of hostility to Penny and Seymour, and also appealed to some twitter Marxist sorts who are slowly getting a bit more skeptical of the politics of many of the more straightforwardly liberal intersectionalists they interact with.

(Also, the back and forth reminds me just how fucking terrible twitter is as a medium for debate).


----------



## apoptosis (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> because...



Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.



oh dear.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

i need a class consciousness accelerant. atm i'm torn between the musings of richard seymour and a bottle of meths.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.


You've lost your bet btw


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i need a class consciousness accelerant. atm i'm torn between the musings of richard seymour and a bottle of meths.


Thought you'd sold out to the dryside?


----------



## apoptosis (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You've lost your bet btw


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Thought you'd sold out to the dryside?


it's medicinal.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.


this is a piss take, right? no one could write that and mean it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> I disagree, tbh.



You disagree, but don't give enough of a damn to elucidate *how* you disagree.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

emanymton said:


> this is a piss take, right? no one could right that and mean it.


He's write though isn't she?


----------



## emanymton (Nov 4, 2013)

Damn phone i meant write.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.


how many copies of this marvelous tome have been sold?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 4, 2013)

blame it on the boogie


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.



Have you read it? It may be revealing of how neoliberalism infiltrates everything, everywhere, but it's hardly "accelerated class consciousness".  It'd (and SEYMOUR's other tomes) have to have achieved much greater sales and wider readership to do so.
Perhaps you mean "Richard Seymour has written some books that vanguardists like, and vanguardists feel that if only the proles would read these books, then class consciousness would be accelerated"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

emanymton said:


> this is a piss take, right? no one could right that and mean it.



Depends whether they're in ideological agreement with SEYMOUR, or belong to the same sect/grouplet/bunch of chair leg-biters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i need a class consciousness accelerant. atm i'm torn between the musings of richard seymour and a bottle of meths.


you want a four-pack of john smith's bitter or some sort of ipa


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> how many copies of this marvelous tome have been sold?



Literally hundreds!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

I genuinely can't believe that some of you tried to bite that lure. This is a forum with a proud record of subtle and not so subtle trolling. You should all know better. For shame.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Literally hundreds!


but how many read?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, to be honest I'm a bit surprised that the response hasn't been to just focus on your crudest, rantiest, formulations and use them to dismiss your views as a whole. I suspect that you hit on a sweet spot of hostility to Penny and Seymour, and also appealed to some twitter Marxist sorts who are slowly getting a bit more skeptical of the politics of many of the more straightforwardly liberal intersectionalists they interact with.
> 
> (Also, the back and forth reminds me just how fucking terrible twitter is as a medium for debate).



It was 3am when I wrote it, and i'd resolved a while before to try keep out of these Penny-related threads, cos it's not good to be ranting all the time and frankly as much as I detest her I don't want to be part of a chorus of abuse every time she comes up with something. I've tried avoiding these discussions on here and elsewhere for a while for exactly those reasons, because of what a terrible trainwreck the previous Penny thread ended up becoming.

But when two well known professional hacks take aim at socialism and marxism, using their platform to get into a bit of insult throwing and red baiting that would make any Tory smile with glee, you've gotta respond. It's a direct attack on us, filled with crude ad hominem and strawman arguments, and arguments that seems to return to the theme of being a socialist/marxist/anarchist or to hold any kind of class based political analysis is a manifestation of privilege, that it necessarily implies anything outside of class to be discarded entirely or reduced to a lesser degree of importance. It's taking this very liberal and longstanding Popper-ish critique of "Marxism as economic determinism" to it's most ridiculous level, then applying it to anyone and everyone who calls themself a socialist/marxist/anarchist. It's a caricature and a strawman and they can get away with it because they have a platform as professional journalists.

I don't think sexism, racism and the multiude of forms oppression can take rank 2nd to class. It's insulting and offensive to make that assumption on my behalf. It's insulting and offensive to accuse some of being a fucking "brocialist" or "manarchist" based on no more than the fact they aren't as well versed in the jargon and etiquette of intersectionalism as they are. Just like it's dishonest and unprofessional to describe was said at that talk she spoke as a dismissal of feminism as irrelevant, when we have the video and the transcript of what was said on this thread and can see for ourselves. But we all know that anyone who thinks Laurie Penny would do anything dishonest or unprofessional, who would deliberately misrepresent or outright lie, would only say those things because they hate brave pioneering female voices such as hers being heard etc etc

It's especially fucking galling when I've made decisions in my own life on these issues like that which have cost me, whereas I doubt I'd see Penny turn down a wedge from the New Statesman when they get Brand in as editor to boost their circulation. She was "out of the office" when Russell Brand guest edited oh how fucking convenient. She's never going to let principle get in the way of earning a crust.

That's what Penny and Seymour are getting at here and it's shameful shit. The fact that my crappy little late night whinge ended up sparking a bit of twitter aggro suggests that there's probably quite a few people unhappy with the direction these media types are going, who can spot their fakery and hypocrisy too, and that there's few people openly taking them on but are quite happy to see it happen when it does. I think that's why the old Laurie Penny thread ended up with so many views and posts. 

I know there's no inherent reason why "intersectonalism" ought to be tied to this pathetic liberalism, and I know there are marxists and anarchists who find it useful. Fine, my beef's really not with them. I'll discuss the pro and cons of it with them no problem. But I don't see many of them with paid jobs in the media, so they'll get talked over and dismissed quite easily. I do see a lot of fucking career liberals who like using this terminology because it can rebrand much of the same old liberal shit they've always been into, only now it comes with the bonus of looking a bit more superficially radical, and also means it's easier to dismiss critique with ad homs.

And I perhaps wouldn't mind so much if this stuff actually led to something, to mass movements that can challenge to slow steady decline into irrelevance and the rise of the far-right, but it patently isn't. It's failing miserably. It's incredibly small and narrow and London-centric. It's common denominator isn't a shared racial or gendered oppression but shared university education and social scene. Oh alright maybe that's unfair.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He's write though isn't she?


Arguably, but I find it hard to imagine someone would write that his books have 'accelerated class conciousness' and mean it seriously.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> but how many read?



I suspect around the same proportion of readers to buyers as anything written by Calinicos or Nineham.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.



Richard Seymour and the SWP have accelerated class consciousness about as constructively as a guillotine relieves a headache.


----------



## apoptosis (Nov 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you read it?



Bits of it


----------



## barney_pig (Nov 4, 2013)

It's going to be _at the very top_ of my Christmas list.


----------



## caleb (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> And I perhaps wouldn't mind so much if this stuff actually led to something, to mass movements that can challenge to slow steady decline into irrelevance and the rise of the far-right, but it patently isn't. It's failing miserably. It's incredibly small and narrow and London-centric. It's common denominator isn't a shared racial or gendered oppression but shared university education and social scene. Oh alright maybe that's unfair.



I don't think it's fair to say it's "London-centric" (I don't actually think that's possible anymore with the internet and all that), but it's definitely Anglo-centric, for one. These ideas have no currency outside of the US and now, of course, the UK. It also only exists within the realm of twitter politicos and university halls, but we all already know that.

It's interesting you mention the stemming the rise of the far-right in relation to intersectionalists. If you look at them on twitter or elsewhere, aside from discussion of privilege, etc. their political memes tend to be 'FULL COMMUNISM', 'ACAB' and 'ANTIFA'. These are basically just slogans of course. They never actually talk about communism, and the use of "ACAB" and "ANTIFA" just seem weird to me. Anybody else noticed this?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

They are these things used ironically not full-bloodily. There is no commitment of any sort to them. It's advertising. It's this:


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

The twitter rows are actually pretty entertaining. 

A particularly hilarious interlude: 

Zoe Stavri, objected to one of the Marxist types using the word "blacks", presumably as opposed to the PoC terminology that arrived over from the US campuses with intersectionality and privilege theory. The response? 

"Please enlighten me, this humble black working class person, on how I should refer to myself for today's assembly". 

There's no comeback to that within the rules of intersectional top trumps, and Stavri, who is certainly not stupid and has plenty of practice at the game, immediately reversed course. The revised angle of attack was that his view that black workers had more in common with white workers than the black middle class was at least permissible (if not necessarily correct) as it came from personal experience, but his personal experience does not allow him to generalise to, for example, gender.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The twitter rows are actually pretty entertaining.
> 
> A particularly hilarious interlude:
> 
> ...



That's fucking horrible. Eurgh.

Reminded me of Stavri's to the response to the Daily Mail hatchet job on Ralph Miliband with this article:



> HEY GUESS WHAT EVERYONE, THE DAILY MAIL ARE BEING MEAN ABOUT A DEAD WHITE GUY.
> 
> WE SHOULD, LIKE, SET THEM ON FIRE OR SOMETHING.



Which is a perfect example of someone having their myriad of varying oppressions dismissed (Lithuanian Marxist Jewish immigrant fleeing Nazi persecution etc) because they're superficially white in terms of skin colour. Doesn't actually seem like a very intersectional way of looking at it to me.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

He was really white, not superficially white.


----------



## Sue (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They are these things used ironically not full-bloodily. There is no commitment of any sort to them. It's advertising. It's this:


 
Don't look much like hipsters to me.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

...and these ones don't look much like real 'FULL COMMUNISM', 'ACAB' and 'ANTIFA' to me.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2013)

apoptosis said:


> Because Richard Seymour has written some excellent books such as _The Meaning of David Cameron _that has accelerated class conciousness in this country more than posts on a forum ever will.


I'm intrigued - why did you choose pre-programmed cell death as a username? Will you self-combust after a predetermined number of posts?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He was really white, not superficially white.



Either way, does it matter? Did being white spare him from having to flee his country? Would his skin colour have kept him from the death camps had he not gotten out when he did?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Will you self-combust after a predetermined number of posts?



You have no idea how accurate that is


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Either way, does it matter? Did being white spare him from having to flee his country? Would his skin colour have kept him from the death camps had he not gotten out when he did?


Is that a serious response? I thought you'd given up these twitter highs?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2013)

Sue said:


> Don't look much like hipsters to me.


hipsters-in-the-country


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> You have no idea how accurate that is


Is it Firky AGAIN?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is that a serious response? I thought you'd given up these twitter highs?



I'm just saying to dismiss someone who was a victim of racial and religious persecution because they're white is ridiculous and reductive. 

To reduce oppression down to what someone skin colour looks like is obscene. 

What about the people who died in the Warsaw ghetto were they just worthless dead white guys too?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm just saying to dismiss someone who was a victim of racial and religious persecution because they're white is ridiculous and reductive.
> 
> To reduce oppression down to what someone skin colour looks like is obscene.
> 
> What about the people who died in the Warsaw ghetto were they just worthless dead white guys too?


Where the fuck did i do that? Oh i get it, you're being _delroy funny_. I see why you don't bother so much.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm just saying to dismiss someone who was a victim of racial and religious persecution because they're white is ridiculous and reductive.
> 
> To reduce oppression down to what someone skin colour looks like is obscene.
> 
> What about the people who died in the Warsaw ghetto were they just worthless dead white guys too?



Are you accidentally trolling yourself now?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

Twitter high nigel.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Are you accidentally trolling yourself now?



Slightly tongue-in-cheek as ever but there's a serious point there. Somewhere 



butchersapron said:


> _delroy funny_.



If only I could change my name


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

Yeah, you'd be _like a little lenny henry._


----------



## revol68 (Nov 4, 2013)

I only wish Harvey or Mattick had told Laurie Penny to "Sit down you petulant child, adults are talking", they were far too polite.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> That's what Penny and Seymour are getting at here and it's shameful shit. The fact that my crappy little late night whinge ended up sparking a bit of twitter aggro suggests that there's probably quite a few people unhappy with the direction these media types are going, who can spot their fakery and hypocrisy too, and that there's few people openly taking them on but are quite happy to see it happen when it does. I think that's why the old Laurie Penny thread ended up with so many views and posts.



The rest of this is great and spot on, but especially this. Think about all the people Laurie Penny has accused falsely of misogyny and when it comes to an actual misogynist, a man who happily jokes about rape and forced a woman to take off her clothes otherwise he wouldn't do any more work, she just shrugs him off as the boyish rogue his income relies on him being portrayed as. How dare she portray herself as being for anything or anyone other than herself.


----------



## caleb (Nov 4, 2013)

revol68 said:


> I only wish Harvey or Mattick had told Laurie Penny to "Sit down you petulant child, adults are talking", they were far too polite.



If I were any of them and familiar with her work I would have told her to fuck right off when she claimed to be fan.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 4, 2013)

J Ed said:


> The rest of this is great and spot on, but especially this. Think about all the people Laurie Penny has accused falsely of misogyny and when it comes to an actual misogynist, a man who happily jokes about rape and forced a woman to take off her clothes otherwise he wouldn't do any more work, she just shrugs him off as the boyish rogue his income relies on him being portrayed as. How dare she portray herself as being for anything or anyone other than herself.



Tbf to Brand the claim about not going on until a woman got her tits out appears to be tabloid bullshit. He does however have form for being a sexist tit, albeit as part of his "naugthy self aware cad" act, so it is really hypocritical for Penny to give him a by ball whilst jumping on people for far less, in fact often for nothing other than her twisted take on things.

If she can give Brand a get out of jail card her antics at Kliman, Harvey and Mattick become even more obviously about her getting herself in the spotlight.


----------



## treelover (Nov 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Apoptosis' arrival above reminds me that Delroy's rant on this thread is doing the rounds on twitter, and has been the trigger for some rowing at the intersectionalist / Marxist, erm, intersection.


 

how do you access these discussions, any links?

hard to believe tomorrow is a mass day of action, go back to sleep England...


----------



## treelover (Nov 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> oh dear.


 

he has written some pretty good articles on issues like benefits in the Guardian, even if there are too many big words..


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

treelover said:


> hard to believe tomorrow is a mass day of action, go back to sleep England...


sorry, it's a tuesday - got to pick the kids up from school.


----------



## treelover (Nov 4, 2013)

http://leftunity.org/left-unity-will-fight-for-the-poor-if-labour-wont/


I like this guy, Salman Shaheen, Left Unity tops, I think he is sincere, but having a photo of you taken in Cambridge/Oxford in an article about Uk wide poverty is a hostage to fortune, especially given the DM response to jack, etc.

He is Oxbridge, I think.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://leftunity.org/left-unity-will-fight-for-the-poor-if-labour-wont/
> 
> 
> I like this guy, Salman Shaheen, Left Unity tops, I think he is sincere, but having a photo of you taken in Cambridge/Oxford in an article about Uk wide poverty is a hostage to fortune, especially given the DM response to jack, etc.
> ...


He'd have done better getting his picture taken in Blackbird Leys or Arbury.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

treelover said:


> how do you access these discussions, any links?



Gradual accumulation of people to follow as debates get going. You could do it pretty fast in this case by searching for "delroy" on twitter and then following the people who are discussing the post.

Seymour has responded by the way: he thinks Delroy is the frightened brocialist backlash. Meanwhile there's a bit of a pro-intersectionalist backlash to the conversation Delroys rant started getting going as well.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

It's all sectarianism apparently, I am after all a well known ultra loyal Socialist Party supporter. Got a little picture of Peter Taaffe on my wall and everything.

You can take the trot out the SWP but can't take the SWP out of the trot.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2013)

What's a brocialist? Only seen that term over the past few days.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

i presume it's a portmanteau of 'bro' and 'parochial', with a fairly ronseal meaning.


----------



## caleb (Nov 4, 2013)

Where's Seymour's response?


----------



## cesare (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i presume it's a portmanteau of 'bro' and 'parochial', with a fairly ronseal meaning.


Or maybe "bro" and "socialist"


----------



## revol68 (Nov 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> What's a brocialist? Only seen that term over the past few days.


 
Socialist equivalent to manarchist.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

cesare said:


> Or maybe "bro" and "socialist"


 

erm yer. maybe.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 4, 2013)

cesare said:


> Or maybe "bro" and "socialist"



That one.


----------



## cesare (Nov 4, 2013)

Is it the latest term to panic over?


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

i preferred my version.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i presume it's a portmanteau of 'bro' and 'parochial', with a fairly ronseal meaning.


Hang your head.

Makes me want to go back to the days of the  left as a whole looking like Harry Cross.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i presume it's a portmanteau of 'bro' and 'parochial', with a fairly ronseal meaning.


How come their bronseal exterior rendering fell off in the storm?


----------



## J Ed (Nov 4, 2013)

caleb said:


> Where's Seymour's response?



https://twitter.com/JamesBrioche/status/397449494876282880


----------



## cesare (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i preferred my version.


But brochial sounds like a misspelled chest complaint


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

i used to think barbara streisand was called barbara streisland until only last year y'know.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

12:32 PM - 4 Nov 13 &middot; Details


*leninology* ‏@*leninology*  31m
@*JamesBrioche* Obviously, the frightened brocialist backlash is on.

12:32 PM - 4 Nov 13 &middot; Details


*leninology* ‏@*leninology*  31m
@*JamesBrioche* All I can see is a post filled with an ignorant, anti-feminist diatribe littered with inaccurate and defamatory claims.
 

12:31 PM - 4 Nov 13 &middot; Details


*leninology* ‏@*leninology*  32m
@*JamesBrioche* I have never seen him utter a word of criticism of SPEW's recent conduct regarding harassment and domestic violence.
 

12:31 PM - 4 Nov 13 &middot; Details


*leninology* ‏@*leninology*  32m
@*JamesBrioche* Booth was a member of the "Trotskyite" Socialist Party of England and Wales last I heard from him.

If you haven't heard me utter a word of criticism about SPEW's conduct that's because I haven't seen you round Huddersfield very often Richard.

Come for a chip butty in the 4 cousins sometime you'll get to hear my withering condemnations of SPEW until you're bored shitless.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

Oh god delroy spam. After calling everyone who made the same points as you creepy obsessives.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Oh god delroy spam. After calling everyone who made the same points as you creepy obsessives.



I only put it up there coz caleb asked, J Ed beat me to it.

Gimme a fucking break will you butchers? I've got Seymour to the left of me, Penny to the right of me, you in front of me, volleying and thundering away. And I'm supposed to be trying to get my life sorted and finally arrange a job for the first time in months tomorrow. 

Anyway is it so hard for someone to accept that they possibly have some problems with the politics they espouse without then being "scared brocialists" or other ad hom shit?


----------



## discokermit (Nov 4, 2013)

people on twitter quoting delroy? jesus fucking christ on a bike.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I only put it up there coz caleb asked, J Ed beat me to it.
> 
> Gimme a fucking break will you butchers? I've got Seymour to the left of me, Penny to the right of me, you in front of me, volleying and thundering away. And I'm supposed to be trying to get my life sorted and finally arrange a job for the first time in months tomorrow.
> 
> Anyway is it so hard for someone to accept that they possibly have some problems with the politics they espouse without then being "scared brocialists" or other ad hom shit?



You still called us who posted what you did creepy obsessives - what changed? You got famous?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You still called us who posted what you did creepy obsessives - what changed? You got famous?



Because to be honest with you I did feel like that Laurie Penny thread was getting a bit out of hand. It actually made me feel a bit sorry for her, as bad as she is an 800 page thread with people pouring over ever detail of my work would freak me out. I wasn't comfortable with a lot of what was on it either, but then again I don't control what other people choose to post on here. I'm glad it's gone. Maybe I'm just a soft touch I dunno.

If I hurt your feelings I do apologise, and I certainly didn't call the entire forum "creepy obsessives" in the manner your suggesting. 

You do a special line in sniping and bullying people on this forum, putting yourself in a position where you're the authority on what should or should not be posted.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 4, 2013)

You're next in line Delroy. Check your light bulbs.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Anyway is it so hard for someone to accept that they possibly have some problems with the politics they espouse without then being "scared brocialists" or other ad hom shit?



Good example of that right here https://twitter.com/leninology/status/397480838817796097



> *leninology* ‏@*leninology*  10m
> @*Bareknuckle1975* @*JamesBrioche* You're a writer looking for work aren't you? Kvetching about 'posturing media types' = sour grapes



Amazing shit. "They're all just jealous of me"


----------



## yield (Nov 4, 2013)

The worm eating its own tail. Do you care what they say delroy?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 4, 2013)

In fairness, Delroy, it's hard to take the moral high ground regarding smearing critics in defence of what was after all a spectacularly abusive rant.


----------



## Balbi (Nov 4, 2013)

In fairness, at 3am if you're not being spectacularly abusive, you're doing it wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

yield said:


> The worm eating its own tail. Do you care what they say delroy?


This will be his fourth crotch shot. And then he'll slag off others in private for doing the same.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> In fairness, Delroy, it's hard to take the moral high ground regarding smearing critics in defence of what was after all a spectacularly abusive rant.



Yeah I suppose that's fair enough. 



yield said:


> The worm eating its own tail. Do you care what they say delroy?



Not in the slightest. Why would I?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> "They're all just jealous of me"



"Either that or they're as cynically careerist and narcissistic as I am. Oops..."


----------



## Sue (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i used to think barbara streisand was called barbara streisland until only last year y'know.


 
Barbra.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

fuck. i never noticed that.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

what is it about streisand? why do i keep inserting letters into her name?


----------



## Balbi (Nov 4, 2013)

Paging Dr Freud


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2013)

i have always been drawn to ladies with larger noses tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> what is it about streisand? why do i keep inserting letters into her name?


You are one sick pupply.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 5, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> You do a special line in sniping and bullying people on this forum, putting yourself in a position where you're the authority on what should or should not be posted.



I've got to ask..

...doesn't it occur to you that the measure of a poster may partly lie in whether or not they respond to people putting themselves in a position of authority?
Me, I just ignore it and drive on, because I've no interest in stroking someone's ego by reacting to them on their terms.  I prefer to operate on *my* terms.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 5, 2013)

Half-terms?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 5, 2013)

killer b said:


> i have always been drawn to ladies with larger noses tbf.









Yer fantasy burd!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 5, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Half-terms?



How very schoolboy of you!


----------



## TruXta (Nov 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> How very schoolboy of you!


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I prefer to operate on *my* terms.



Napoleon always warned that if you let your opposition dictate the terms under which battle is joined then you've already lost.

Should have remembered that at Waterloo, really...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Napoleon always warned that if you let your opposition dictate the terms under which battle is joined then you've already lost.
> 
> Should have remembered that at Waterloo, really...


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>




I'd sooner have faced Anni-Frid and Agnetha than the Imperial Guard.


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I'd sooner have faced Anni-Frid and Agnetha than the Imperial Guard.



is this one of those moments where you're going to give everyone a window into your psyche that leaves them almost but not quite in need of a bucket of mind bleach?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2013)

toggle said:


> is this one of those moments where you're going to give everyone a window into your psyche that leaves them almost but not quite in need of a bucket of mind bleach?


or a bucket to chuck into


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

that is certainly another common reaction


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2013)

Well I don't think it's possible to fit the entire Imperial Guard into a jacuzzi filled with strawberry yoghurt, so I guess it'll have to be option B.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Well I don't think it's possible to fit the entire Imperial Guard into a jacuzzi filled with strawberry yoghurt, so I guess it'll have to be option B.


you know this will form the centre point of a laurie penny blog next week, don't you?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you know this will form the centre point of a laurie penny blog next week, don't you?



Provided Penny Dreadful credits me and links to my blog then I'll waive my fee.


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Provided Penny Dreadful credits me and links to my blog then I'll waive my fee.



I will, of course, be avail\able to inform her of the incident involving the pineapple


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2013)

toggle said:


> I will, of course, be avail\able to inform her of the incident involving the pineapple


never mind telling her, tell the rest of us.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2013)

toggle said:


> I will, of course, be avail\able to inform her of the incident involving the pineapple



At least you don't know about the time I was in a pubful of pissed-up bootnecks and some idiot (who wasn't me) boozily bellowed the dreaded phrase 'Naked bar!'

And I wasn't ejected from the same establishment after being found lying on the bar with my head under a flowing beer tap, either.

Just saying, like.


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> never mind telling her, tell the rest of us.



you will find out. 

eventually


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 5, 2013)

toggle said:


> I will, of course, be avail\able to inform her of the incident involving the pineapple



never mind the pineapple, what about the melons?


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> never mind the pineapple, what about the melons?



there's a limit to how much i'[m prepared to talk about. without an offer of cash payment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 5, 2013)

toggle said:


> there's a limit to how much i'[m prepared to talk about. without an offer of cash payment.


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

there's a limit to how much i'm prepared to discuss for free, and i'm already organising a couple of intervirews in the next week


----------



## emanymton (Nov 5, 2013)

toggle said:


> there's a limit to how much i'[m prepared to talk about. without an offer of cash payment.


10p?


----------



## toggle (Nov 5, 2013)

emanymton said:


> 10p?



and not even a biccy as well.


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 7, 2013)

Oh dear..... 



> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed1m
> People also tell me that I only got my job through family connections. Nope. I am the first person in my family to work in media in any way.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Sue (Nov 7, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Oh dear.....


 Don't think she gets it...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2013)

Laurie Penny said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but I'm bloody sick of anonymous commenters telling me I can't have an opinion on anything because I grew up middle-class.
> 
> Many journalists come from far more privilege than me, don't even try to own it, and for some reason it's me who gets attacked. It's stupid.
> 
> ...



lololololololololol


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 7, 2013)

S☼I said:


> lololololololololol


I'm pretty sure rule number one of the privilege game is not moaning about the side effects of your privilege.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2013)

tbh afaic lp can have an opinion but it's a pity she rarely makes it one worth listening to.


----------



## Favelado (Nov 7, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> I'm pretty sure rule number one of the privilege game is not moaning about the side effects of your privilege.



Quite. A middle-class person lecturing other people when they challenge her privilege. Amazing work.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 7, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> I'm pretty sure rule number one of the privilege game is not moaning about the side effects of your privilege.



Doesn't count if your privilege is based on social class


----------



## J Ed (Nov 7, 2013)

Notice how she says middle-class, not middle-class _and _privately educated. There's middle-class and lawyer parents and private schooling middle-class.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2013)

> commenters have no idea about how I grew up



oxford


----------



## Favelado (Nov 7, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Notice how she says middle-class, not middle-class _and _privately educated. There's middle-class and lawyer parents and private schooling middle-class.



She also says she "grew up" middle class, which may even dare to suggest that she doesn't think she is now.


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 7, 2013)

She no doubt receives some utterly horrific and disgusting misogynistic abuse but the short translation of that rant: I got called out for an article full of anecdotal evidence and clumsy prose (again).


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2013)

some of the comment threads appending LP articles are genuinely stuffed with people who you'd not only avoid pissing on if they were aflame, you'd be the one with the petrol and matches that caused the immolation.


----------



## Balbi (Nov 7, 2013)

*waves at twitter again*


----------



## xslavearcx (Nov 7, 2013)

what does 'owning' ones privledge mean anyhow?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 7, 2013)

I read one article of LPs in the Guardian. Never again. She's almost as dull as Bidisha.


----------



## captainmission (Nov 7, 2013)

> *Writers of Colour* ‏@WritersofColour1h
> 
> Well now you are where you are, you have the chance to spread whatever privilege you have & help others achieve similar or more @PennyRed
> 
> ...



privilege theory meets trickle down economics


----------



## J Ed (Nov 7, 2013)

captainmission said:


> privilege theory meets trickle down economics



...meets civilising missions. Holy shit.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 7, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> what does 'owning' ones privledge mean anyhow?



I almost feel like giving her a bit of advice from one middle class wannabe revolutionary to another, like:
Dear Penny,
You'll do better if you:

1) Stop moaning about the side effects of your "privilege" as if they were really problem
2) Don't pretend you're poor. Ever. Just remember, this was written about you.
3) You know that "step back, shut up" thing that American intersectionalist types love. Do that. Difficult to do when your a journo, but maybe, just maybe, if some of your articles weren't actually about you, you could let other people talk a bit more through your platform.
4) Accept that lots of people will still think you're a twat and a wannable middle class revolutionary. And why shouldn't they? They're not obliged to like you or take you seriously just cause you've come down from on high to explain to them all about their terrible oppression. I mean you pretty much think they're supposed to despise the well-off anyway - so why should you exclude yourself from that?

Yours sincerely

Lo Siento.

That'd be a start for "owning your privilege" I reckon.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 7, 2013)

OMG. Is that Laurie actually asking us to _check our working class privilege_?


----------



## kavenism (Nov 7, 2013)

On the subject of curious manifestations of class consciousness (or unconsciousness in Penny's case) here's Mark Fisher (he of Capitalist Realism fame) shooting the shit on FB.



> "This week it's Brand, soon it will be Katniss. But really they are all the faces of our class waking up and seeing the masters for what they are. We're rediscovering each other, and recognising the extent to which bourgeois liberals have kept us apart from one another while posing as radicals, and as our friends. Explosion in the heart of the commodity. Now everything is kicking off in the mainstream that they disdained."



This is part of over a week of public railing against the "PoshLeft" and something called the "Vampires Castle" by Fisher. I like his stance against against the media liberals, although he tends not to name names, but he seems to read something epoch making into Russell Brand's intervention which to my mind is a sign of desperation. He's pushing this Wounds of Class venture as a place to collect experiences emerging class consciousness. It's open to all. 
http://woundsofclass.com/



> "The site is guided by the thought that everyone, no matter what their background, is harmed by the class structure. It is hoped that Wounds of Class will be a space where people can share their experiences of the suffering caused by the class structure. Anyone who would like to post on the site is encouraged to email woundsofclass@gmail.com"



The first post does well to remind us that some people get nervous in tea rooms, don't they.
I'm thinking of posting my experience of being scoffed at by a Waitrose employee for not knowing the difference between Kalamata and Sicilian Green olives. The wounds run deep.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 7, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> I read one article of LPs in the Guardian. Never again. *She's almost as dull as Bidisha.*



That's going a bit _too_ far.

And, IMO, giving yourself a one word name is an infinitely worse sin than being a middle class wannabee revolutionary.  Any day.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 7, 2013)

kavenism said:


> On the subject of curious manifestations of class consciousness (or unconsciousness in Penny's case) here's Mark Fisher (he of Capitalist Realism fame) shooting the shit on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that's a nice little article


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2013)

kavenism said:


> On the subject of curious manifestations of class consciousness (or unconsciousness in Penny's case) here's Mark Fisher (he of Capitalist Realism fame) shooting the shit on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

This could be worthwhile, it is probably influenced by the book, 'The Hidden Injuries of Class' by Richard Sennett and Jonathan Cobb, (but I think it may go further back.)


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2013)

kavenism said:


> On the subject of curious manifestations of class consciousness (or unconsciousness in Penny's case) here's Mark Fisher (he of Capitalist Realism fame) shooting the shit on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Why did you focus on a tiny bit of what was a sensitive exploration of how class affected his parents and the growing divide as their children went off to university, etc?


----------



## kavenism (Nov 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> Why did you focus on a tiny bit of what was a sensitive exploration of how class affected his parents and the growing divide as their children went off to university, etc?



Perhaps because of my general hostility to confessional forms of discourse and in particular the rather wallowing tone of much of what I've been reading from Fisher and his correspondents of late. To be honest some of the stuff he’s been writing on the "Vampire’s Castle" could be a Deleuzian variant of things you can pull of Icke’s site any day of the week. I know he’s “on our side” as it were, but that doesn’t make it any less bizarre.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2013)

Jesus, that Woundedby Class thing sounds vomit inducing and the confessional style is just ughh too. It's class reduced to classism, to some explicit incidents of class prejudice rather than a structural understanding. I mean class as a leaving a wound, class isn't a fucking wound, it is the whole body.


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 8, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Jesus, that Woundedby Class thing sounds vomit inducing and the confessional style is just ughh too. It's class reduced to classism, to some explicit incidents of class prejudice rather than a structural understanding. I mean class as a leaving a wound, class isn't a fucking wound, it is the whole body.


 
Yeah the wound image doesn't really do it for me - like 'class' is an incidental external imposition on the body rather than an antagonistic state of being that structures the whole social field and every encounter within it. As you say, the hypothetical body here is not 'pre-class' (as the wound metaphor supposes), but rather itself structured and constituted by the class system.
I haven't read enough of this guy's stuff to really comment - that's a first reaction to what struck me.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 8, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Jesus, that Woundedby Class thing sounds vomit inducing and the confessional style is just ughh too. It's class reduced to classism, to some explicit incidents of class prejudice rather than a structural understanding. I mean class as a leaving a wound, class isn't a fucking wound, it is the whole body.



the name is pretty dire and there's nothing worse than over-educated arrogant posh boys on the internet telling us what it means to be working class, but the article itself is sweet and charming, the kind of self-reflective confessional that sweeps into indulgent sentimentality at the drop of a phd.

_The liberal left destroyed
Every bit of our youth
Left with the barest of bones
Leaving us all with holes_


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 11, 2013)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  8 Nov
San Francisco. In line for posh coffee, people discuss their startups. Outside in the excrement-reeking street, sick people harass you.


...it's quite a contrast, I can tell you!


----------



## Belushi (Nov 11, 2013)

San Francisco! Nice work if you can get it. When is she visiting Merthyr Tydfil?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 11, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  8 Nov
> San Francisco. In line for posh coffee, people discuss their startups. Outside in the excrement-reeking street, sick people harass you.
> 
> 
> ...it's quite a contrast, I can tell you!


What kind of person, mere days after complaining that people won't take her seriously because she's too middle class - writes a sentence like that? 

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/398894426094698497


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> What kind of person, mere days after complaining that people won't take her seriously because she's too middle class - writes a sentence like that?


Someone with little self-insight. And repeat....


----------



## Favelado (Nov 11, 2013)

Jesus and Mary Magdalene.


----------



## Sue (Nov 11, 2013)

Belushi said:


> San Francisco! Nice work if you can get it. When is she visiting *Merthyr Tydfil?*


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  8 Nov
> San Francisco. In line for posh coffee, people discuss their startups. Outside in the excrement-reeking street, sick people harass you.
> 
> 
> ...it's quite a contrast, I can tell you!



Where were the police? These decent, coffee-drinking folk deserve protection from the stinking sickoes off the street, no?


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 11, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  8 Nov
> San Francisco. In line for posh coffee, people discuss their startups. Outside in the excrement-reeking street, sick people harass you.
> 
> 
> ...it's quite a contrast, I can tell you!



are you sure that isnt a parody account?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> are you sure that isnt a parody account?



Is she trolling urban?



> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  20h
> The warehouse I'm staying in let me cook them up a massive vegan feast. Seitan-fried greens, risotto verde, biscuits. Happy Sunday.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 11, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> What kind of person, mere days after complaining that people won't take her seriously because she's too middle class - writes a sentence like that?



I think that she is trying to highlight the disturbing juxtaposition of extreme wealth and extreme poverty, which is fine although not too much different to London, but because she is who she is it comes across in a really bad way - income inequality should be reduced so that these people don't irritate he while she has her organic soy milk latte or whatever


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I think that she is trying to highlight the disturbing juxtaposition of extreme wealth and extreme poverty, which is fine although not too much different to London, _*but because she is who she is it comes across in a really bad way *_- income inequality should be reduced so that these people don't irritate he while she has her organic soy milk latte or whatever



No, that's just bad.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 11, 2013)

I noticed that LP retweeted this







Not specifically having a go at LP because she isn't the only one to suggest this sort of thing but I think that this sort of sentiment is actively harmful generally when said by people on the left. It suggests that neoliberal reform is the same thing as economic efficiency for society, which as we know in most cases is the opposite of the truth. I can see how this kind of idea can appeal to the tiny minority of people for whom the abandonment of neoliberalism would not be in their economic interest, but for the rest of us the idea that socialism is less economically efficient even if it is 'morally superior' is a harmful idea imo.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 11, 2013)

John Clapham, Jesus Christ. What next, quoting Lloyd George?


----------



## J Ed (Nov 11, 2013)

I don't know whether this makes it better or worse but I doubt she knows who he is


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 11, 2013)

Belushi said:


> San Francisco! Nice work if you can get it. When is she visiting Merthyr Tydfil?


Didn't see her at Grangemouth, Govan, Scotstoun or Portsmouth recently either.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 12, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I think that she is trying to highlight the disturbing juxtaposition of extreme wealth and extreme poverty, which is fine although not too much different to London, but because she is who she is it comes across in a really bad way - income inequality should be reduced so that these people don't irritate he while she has her organic soy milk latte or whatever


 Unnecessary, massively cliched highlighting. Who the fuck doesn't know that the US has huge wealth disparity? All it really achieves is to inform us (a) that she's in San Francisco and that's soooo exciting and interesting and (b) exoticise poverty


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 12, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Unnecessary, massively cliched highlighting. Who the fuck doesn't know that the US has huge wealth disparity? All it really achieves is to inform us (a) that she's in San Francisco and that's soooo exciting and interesting and (b) exoticise poverty


Exactly. There's been a lot going on in the UK recently yet I don't recall her highlighting any of those issues. I'd find her more credible if she'd done even token articles on any of those, but sadly lattes in San Fran are more appealing to her.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 12, 2013)

To be fair to Penny, if I had the choice between going to some grim as fuck deindustrialised shithole up North or San Francisco it would be an easy choice. Plus she has more chance of catching up with Ryan Gosling.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 12, 2013)

revol68 said:


> To be fair to Penny, if I had the choice between going to some grim as fuck deindustrialised shithole up North or San Francisco it would be an easy choice. Plus she has more chance of catching up with Ryan Gosling.


But for a self-proclaimed leftie she should be all over what was happening in Grangemouth or Govan, which are not 'deindustrialised shitholes' as you put in. Sure, they're heavy industrial but they're most certainly not the worst places in the UK to go to.

Admittedly neither are as glam as San Fran, which I suspect was the appeal for LP.


----------



## FNG (Nov 12, 2013)

from the sound of it penny is not finding San Francisco smelling of Roses either.Fuck knows how she would cope with somewhere like mumbai,supose she would cope better if poverty and sickness came in a brightly coloured sari.


----------



## barney_pig (Nov 12, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Unnecessary, massively cliched highlighting. Who the fuck doesn't know that the US has huge wealth disparity? All it really achieves is to inform us (a) that she's in San Francisco and that's soooo exciting and interesting and (b) exoticise poverty


Note that she is with the rich and successful ( in line for posh coffee) not 'outside'.


----------



## caleb (Nov 12, 2013)

People remember this? The logic of the intersectionalistas, etc.:



> Just a few blocks away, eight anarchist/autonomous/*anti*-authoritarian people of color* gathered to discuss a direct confrontation. We arrived from different parts of these stolen lands of the Turtle Island. Some came from the Midwest, some from the Northeast, some born and raised in Pittsburgh. Altogether we represented 7 different locations, half of us socialized as female a variety of sizes, skin color, with identities of queers, trans, gender-queers, gender variants, and womyn. With little time and a desire for full consensus, we quickly devised a plan. A local apocista offered safer space housing for unarrestables, parents, and children of color, we planned to extend that offer to the best of our abilities. We departed toward the convergence from our local apoc Pittsburgh friends with complete support.



http://libcom.org/library/smack-white-boy-part-two-crimethinc-eviction-2009


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2013)

See also long thread on here.

edit: which i now realise turned into a one of dilute micro's idiot confederate threads so prob not worth the bother


----------



## caleb (Nov 12, 2013)

Ah cheers.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 12, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Plus she has more chance of catching up with Ryan Gosling.



Will he actually have to save her life this time?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2013)

They're working on a re-make of taxi driver together - they're going to save society:

_Someday a real rain will come and wash all these sickos off the streets._


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Didn't see her at Grangemouth, Govan, Scotstoun or Portsmouth recently either.



Too shit-scented, and with the sound of too many hacking coughs echoing, for one with her refined sensibilities.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 12, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Too shit-scented, and with the sound of too many hacking coughs echoing, for one with her refined sensibilities.


Bet the coffee is shit too.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 12, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Bet the coffee is shit too.


 
one day when i leave london i'm going to walk northwards with a posh coffee machine over my shoulder, and when someone asks me "what is that?", that's where i'm going to live.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 12, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> one day when i leave london i'm going to walk northwards with a posh coffee machine over my shoulder, and when someone asks me "what is that?", that's where i'm going to live.


What will happen to the coffee machine?


----------



## lazythursday (Nov 12, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> one day when i leave london i'm going to walk northwards with a posh coffee machine over my shoulder, and when someone asks me "what is that?", that's where i'm going to live.


Nuneaton. I wouldn't advise it, tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What will happen to the coffee machine?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> one day when i leave london i'm going to walk northwards with a posh coffee machine over my shoulder, and when someone asks me "what is that?", that's where i'm going to live.


----------



## steeplejack (Nov 13, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> one day when i leave london i'm going to walk northwards with a posh coffee machine over my shoulder, and when someone asks me "what is that?", that's where i'm going to live.








(((el-ahrairah)))


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 13, 2013)

aylesbury's all right, i know it quite well, it's not that bad. the aylesbury SP are sound as fuck.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 13, 2013)

I had a haircut in the place once. Pretty. You london people think the north begins just past the M25


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I had a haircut in the place ones. Pretty. You london people think the north begins just past the M25


Fuck off, everything below Shetland is the south for me.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2013)

Typical cockney


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

Yeah, great big cockerney me


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2013)

I think things sometimes go over your head Truxta.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think things sometimes go over your head Truxta.


They might at that. I think sometimes you think you're a lot more clever than you are.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2013)

TruXta said:


> They might at that. I think sometimes you think you're a lot more clever than you are.


That's it, lash out.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

Lash out? Feeling a bit tender today are we?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2013)

And they say there is no humour outside of these Isles.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

It's true. We're all humourless pompous dicks.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 13, 2013)

I met a Norwegian academic yesterday. He had a good story about meeting JFK and RFK in Washington, the summer before that fateful November morn.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I met a Norwegian academic yesterday. He had a good story about meeting JFK and RFK in Washington, the summer before that fateful November morn.


What's his name?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2013)

Stop digging ffs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 13, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What's his name?




Leif Harvey Oswaldson


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Lief Harvey Oswaldson


Professor of Peace Studies?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Leif Harvey Oswaldson


 
ooof


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Leif Harvey Oswaldson





TruXta said:


> Professor of Peace Studies?



"If you think we're bad, you should see the act that follows us".


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Leif Harvey Oswaldson





TruXta said:


> Professor of Peace Studies?



"Any resemblance between these characters and any living persons is purely coincidental".


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> "If you think we're bad, you should see the act that follows us".


After hitler, us.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 13, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> "Any resemblance between these characters and any living persons is purely coincidental".


I'll take that as a yes. Or maybe.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 13, 2013)

I once expounded my theory on scandinavians to Frogwoman, about how they like social democracy and are genial people in the main (leaving aside the metaller loons). It was 'Do you recon they exported all the violent might is right sorts on those dragon prowed ships and the people left behind were just the kind and friendly sorts'

iirc she called me an idiot. Which is fair enough.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 13, 2013)

Why is the whole commentariat banging on about a Lilly Allen video like it or Miley Cyrus is 1) important 2) something particularly new or groundbreaking?

It's almost as if people think that what Lily Allen or Miley Cyrus do actually matter and by changing what they do, or by buying enough of a certain millionaire musician's products, then they can cause some sort of radical change. Consumerism as activism...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 13, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I had a haircut in the place once. Pretty.



Never knew you were so vain, you big ponce you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 13, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Never knew you were so vain, you big ponce you.




I bet I think this post is about me


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 13, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> "Any resemblance between these characters and any living persons is purely coincidental".



Isn't that the disclaimer on Johann Hari's interviews?


----------



## treelover (Nov 13, 2013)

Just noticed that there is to be a film about the Suffragettes going into production next year produced by Alison Owen (Elizabeth, Sylvia, etc) (Lily Allen's Mum) talk about capturing the zeitgeist?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> After hitler, us.



_Apres Idris, le deluge_.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Apres Idris, le deluge_.



Whistling the Dambusters theme while drumming on the kitchen table with a pair of breadsticks would be inappropriate, wouldn't it?


----------



## caleb (Nov 14, 2013)

You lot are going to love this:

http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2013/11/who-are-new-socialist-wunderkinds-america


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 14, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Whistling the Dambusters theme while drumming on the kitchen table with a pair of breadsticks would be inappropriate, wouldn't it?



breadsticks?  is that what we've come to?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2013)

caleb said:


> You lot are going to love this:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2013/11/who-are-new-socialist-wunderkinds-america



I'm just surprised that Malcolm "creepy bastard" Harris wasn't mentioned!


----------



## TruXta (Nov 14, 2013)

caleb said:


> You lot are going to love this:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2013/11/who-are-new-socialist-wunderkinds-america





> It’s tempting to assume that this is all the province of a privileged cast of the educated, urban and young. That assumption may carry some truth. (For what it’s worth, Rosenfelt and Sunkara both went to elite private universities, as did most of the people I now hear talking socialism.)


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Apres Idris, le deluge_.



L'etat c'est moi.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 14, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> L'etat c'est moi.









??


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2013)

> It’s tempting to assume that this is all the province of a privileged cast of the educated, urban and young. That assumption may carry some truth. (For what it’s worth, Rosenfelt and Sunkara both went to elite private universities, as did most of the people I now hear talking.)


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 14, 2013)

TruXta said:


> ??


Voyez mes larmes.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2013)

The main socialist wunderkid he talks about went out of her way to publicly disassociate herself and her mag from socialism  last week btw.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> breadsticks?  is that what we've come to?



I could use a boilermaker's hammer and a miner's pick if that would be prolier.


----------



## love detective (Nov 14, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The main socialist wunderkid he talks about went out of her way to publicly disassociate herself and her mag from socialism  last week btw.



articul8?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 14, 2013)

good old statesman with its finger on the pulse.


----------



## love detective (Nov 14, 2013)

Is Penny still getting harassed (in her own words) by sick people in San Fran Cisco?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 14, 2013)

love detective said:


> articul8?


 
he's far too old to be a wunderkind.  more of a


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 14, 2013)

love detective said:


> Is Penny still getting harassed (in her own words) by sick people in San Fran Cisco?


 
we can nly hope.


----------



## love detective (Nov 14, 2013)

great empathic and non-privilagist type approach to talking about people that are less fortunate than yourself I thought she displayed there


----------



## TruXta (Nov 14, 2013)

love detective said:


> Is Penny still getting harassed (in her own words) by sick people in San Fran Cisco?


Since I'm loath to work....



> America! I am drinking an abomination called an Earl Grey latte. / America! Your anarchists are not like the ones back home





> I'm increasingly worried about talking about what I love in life on Twitter because I know it'll be torn down by haters





> The SF subway is plastered, floor to ceiling, with ads for "The New Surface" by Microsoft. On this new surface, homeless people are sleeping



She's harassed by bad tea apparently. And been going to lots of nice places, daaahling.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2013)

Earl Grey latte?

_Earl Grey latte?

'I'm not merely the voice of a generation...'

'I'm the M&S voice of a generation...'_


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 14, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Since I'm loath to work....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rekil (Nov 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The main socialist wunderkid he talks about went out of her way to publicly disassociate herself and her mag from socialism  last week btw.


Rachel's da is John Hagel III and he sits on the TNI advisory board. He's all about the revenue enhancement, leveraged growth strategies, unbundling the enterprise and offshoring and outsourcing strategies.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2013)

We're going to have to drill right through these people.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 18, 2013)

Please say that you mean literally


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2013)

If the opportunity arises we would be remiss not to think about it.


----------



## treelover (Nov 18, 2013)

> Every time I’ve come home to the US from my home abroad over the past four years, I notice a trend among people of my demographic: they have become increasingly politicised – and increasingly radical. The stereotype of the apathetic hipster has given way to a new kind of *well-educated, middle-class twentysomething who rails against the prison-industrial complex*, who talks about wages for housework, who throws around words like “imperialism” and “exploitation” with a growing sense of comfort. Occupy Wall Street may have something to do with it, but what is happening now in America feels more like a moment than a movement.



they have a lot to 'rail against' there can't be anything more obscene than the profit making private prison system in the U.S

something does seem to be happening, look at Seattle.


----------



## treelover (Nov 18, 2013)

Btw, what were the class backgrounds of the 'new left?'

Mills, Anderson, Blackburn, etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2013)

Who is Mills?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Who is Mills?


better known as half of the publishing duo mills and boon.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> better known as half of the publishing duo mills and boon.


Not the well known comedy duo Mills and Bone?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> We're going to have to drill right through these people.



You are Eric Cartman and I claim my five pounds:


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 18, 2013)

killer b said:


> i used to think barbara streisand was called barbara streisland until only last year y'know.


WHAT???
(a little late to the party here, i know, but... )

say it ain't so.


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 18, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> WHAT???
> (a little late to the party here, i know, but... )
> 
> say it ain't so.


oh. my. god. it is so.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 18, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> WHAT???
> (a little late to the party here, i know, but... )
> 
> say it ain't so.


 
Unfortunately killer b has left the boards for a bit so he won't be able to tell you. I can only assume because of his shame at getting her name wrong.


----------



## andysays (Nov 18, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> (a little late to the party here, i know, but... )



That's OK, we understand you had some trouble getting past the slightly over-fastidious host.

Good to see you back!


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Unfortunately killer b has left the boards for a bit so he won't be able to tell you. I can only assume because of his shame at getting her name wrong.


arse (not him, just that he's left)


andysays said:


> That's OK, we understand you had some trouble getting past the slightly over-fastidious host.
> 
> Good to see you back!


ta! nice to be able to post again


----------



## gosub (Nov 26, 2013)

http://www.bahighlife.com/News-And-...sitive-and-negative-politeness-societies.html

Second last paragraph 

' When a Tube train stops inexplicably in a tunnel, there comes a moment when we look at each other, and talk. There's a flicker of pleasure that says: oh, you're here, and so am I. We can talk., '


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 26, 2013)

I recognise that. There's something fun about the convention breaking down. As long as it doesn't involve a commuter that you recognise, of course, because then you'd possibly have to acknowledge each other in future.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 26, 2013)

No useless leniency.


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 26, 2013)

I don't believe a word of it.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 27, 2013)

gosub said:


> http://www.bahighlife.com/News-And-...sitive-and-negative-politeness-societies.html
> 
> Second last paragraph
> 
> ' When a Tube train stops inexplicably in a tunnel, there comes a moment when we look at each other, and talk. There's a flicker of pleasure that says: oh, you're here, and so am I. We can talk., '



Last time a train I was on broke down some school kid quite amusingly screamed "WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!!!". Can't remember if anyone talked to each other, but that made most of the passengers' day a little better, I reckon.


----------



## rekil (Nov 27, 2013)

"I'm thinking of crowdfunding some foreign reporting in the future."

How LP plans to pay for a future holiday. 

I glimpsed Tim Aker on skynews earlier. All grown up and giving out about bulgarians. If he makes it into the proper circuit, we can claim to have been appalled by him long before it was profitable or popular.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 30, 2013)

Laurie Penny said:
			
		

> Essentially, I think there's more to being on the left than feeling like we're better and purer than other people.



_More to_.

Better...than_ other people._


----------



## J Ed (Nov 30, 2013)

S☼I said:


> _More to_.
> 
> Better...than_ other people._




So this has escalated to LP retweeting

*Martin Robbins* ‏@mjrobbins1h
@PennyRed @arunindy @mollycrabapple Threads like this make me wish I could just go be a Tory.

I actually don't know quite what to say to that, except "we know".


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> So this has escalated to LP retweeting
> 
> *Martin Robbins* ‏@mjrobbins1h
> @PennyRed @arunindy @mollycrabapple Threads like this make me wish I could just go be a Tory.
> ...


Wait til your father gets home


----------



## emanymton (Nov 30, 2013)

I had a dream about LP last night! 

From what I can remember of it we seemed to just keep turning up at the same places. Then she gave me a book to deliver to someone's house, but I couldn't find it. Most odd.


----------



## treelover (Nov 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Who is Mills?






> Mills was concerned with the responsibilities of intellectuals in post-World War II society, and advocated public and political engagement over uninterested observation. Mills biographer Daniel Geary writes that his writings had a "particularly significant impact on New Left social movements of the 1960s."[1] In fact, Mills popularized the term "New Left" in the U.S. in a 1960 open letter, _Letter to the New Left_.[2]



C Wright Mills, the U.S sociologist, the 'first wave' of the New Left, he died when he was only 45.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> C Wright Mills, the U.S sociologist, the 'first wave' of the New Left, he died when he was only 45.


Right i suspected that's who you meant. I was a little confused at you including him in that short list, given that what we now think of as that old new left actually turned against his rather safe conclusions - and that the two you mentioned came to prominence well after Mills death. The latter two are both Oxbridge - and Perry is eton. I reckon Mills ongoing influence to be pretty much zero.


----------



## rekil (Nov 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> So this has escalated to LP retweeting
> 
> *Martin Robbins* ‏@mjrobbins1h
> @PennyRed @arunindy @mollycrabapple Threads like this make me wish I could just go be a Tory.
> ...


The best bit of that whole mess was when an 'Activist' called Lauren Steiner, megaphone and all, jumped in and claimed to have stopped the Koch brothers from buying the LA Times!


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 30, 2013)

Look how quickly she throws out accusations of 'policing' to shut down debate and criticism.

https://twitter.com/arunindy/status/406581445226811392


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 30, 2013)

twitter really is the worst thing to happen to human communication since the invention of esperanto.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 30, 2013)

Theisticle said:


> Look how quickly she throws out accusations of 'policing' to shut down debate and criticism.
> 
> https://twitter.com/arunindy/status/406581445226811392



Asking a question and singling out individuals is apparently beyond the pale when it comes to criticising entrepreneurial capitalism, though is completely fine when accusing someone of any other ism. You don't have to wish that you were a Tory, Penny, you are already speaking their language, just add in a few things about hard working families and you'll be a shoe in for 2030 Tory advisor for Intersectional Entrepreneurs


----------



## rekil (Nov 30, 2013)

S☼I said:


> _More to_.
> 
> Better...than_ other people._



That's a little bit bigotry.

I blame her idol Seldon. What's his game here?



> It must have made for an extraordinary sight. Here, according to witnesses, was Anthony Seldon – one of England's most prominent and eloquent headteachers – bent almost double, "shrieking" in assembly at a group of 12- and 13-year-olds.
> 
> "'You stand up when I enter the room', he shouted at the top of his voice," says an onlooker. "'You will stand up and you won't slouch around'."
> 
> ...


----------



## andysays (Nov 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> So this has escalated to LP retweeting
> 
> *Martin Robbins* ‏@mjrobbins1h
> @PennyRed @arunindy @mollycrabapple Threads like this make me wish I could just go be a Tory.
> ...





J Ed said:


> Asking a question and singling out individuals is apparently beyond the pale when it comes to criticising entrepreneurial capitalism, though is completely fine when accusing someone of any other ism. *You don't have to wish that you were a Tory, Penny,* you are already speaking their language, just add in a few things about hard working families and you'll be a shoe in for 2030 Tory advisor for Intersectional Entrepreneurs



It's a minor point, but isn't it Martin Roberts (who ever he is...) wishing he could be a Tory rather that LolP?

There's still plenty to call her on without attributing the twattery of others to her


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 30, 2013)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  17h
@*mollycrabapple* @*arunindy* @*nychange* Molly does a ton of work for charity and donates her art for free to activist causes. What's your point?

...It's the old golden circle. Her and pals are beyond criticism, anyone who does criticize them is 'policing', 'bullying', 'harrassing' etc. And allude to undefined charidee work if all else fails. It's the same move celebrities pull, done with the same grandness. Quite funny to see L. Penny pulling it in a twitter beef when the stakes are so small.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2013)

donates her art for free to activist causes


----------



## J Ed (Nov 30, 2013)

andysays said:


> It's a minor point, but isn't it Martin Roberts (who ever he is...) wishing he could be a Tory rather that LolP?
> 
> There's still plenty to call her on without attributing the twattery of others to her



Yea but she retweeted it, seems to be an endorsement


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> donates her art for free to activist causes



Samsung?


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 30, 2013)

Hilarious how Penny can't see how Crabapple's association with Occupy 


The Pale King said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  17h
> @*mollycrabapple* @*arunindy* @*nychange* Molly does a ton of work for charity and donates her art for free to activist causes. What's your point?
> 
> ...It's the old golden circle. Her and pals are beyond criticism, anyone who does criticize them is 'policing', 'bullying', 'harrassing' etc. And allude to undefined charidee work if all else fails. It's the same move celebrities pull, done with the same grandness. Quite funny to see L. Penny pulling it in a twitter beef when the stakes are so small.



Indeed. It's not like her and Crabapple didn't attach themselves to the Occupy movement to further their respective careers. Oh, wait...


----------



## andysays (Nov 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Yea but she retweeted it, seems to be an endorsement



No argument from me there - it's all part of the collective golden circle jerk

(thanks to The Pale King for triggering that image, BTW)


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 30, 2013)

Theisticle said:


> Hilarious how Penny can't see how Crabapple's association with Occupy
> 
> 
> Indeed. It's not like her and Crabapple didn't attach themselves to the Occupy movement to further their respective careers. Oh, wait...



'These are our inviolate, deeply-held core political principles!'

'If you don't like them, we have others...'


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 30, 2013)

andysays said:


> the collective golden circle jerk



That was a dodgy 'specialist German 'art movie', wasn't it?


----------



## andysays (Nov 30, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> That was a dodgy 'specialist German 'art movie', wasn't it?



I'll happily bow to your greater knowledge of dodgy 'specialist German 'art movie'


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 30, 2013)

andysays said:


> No argument from me there - it's all part of the collective golden circle jerk
> 
> (thanks to The Pale King for triggering that image, BTW)


 
Any time Andy


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> twitter really is the worst thing to happen to human communication since the invention of esperanto.



Kial la malamas esperanton, kamarado?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Kial la malamas esperanton, kamarado?



Todoallestout.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> donates her art for free to activist causes



Sting singing on the roof of the Barbican.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2013)

andysays said:


> I'll happily bow to your greater knowledge of dodgy 'specialist German 'art movie'



*All* have to bow before Bakunin's superior knowledge of specialist German "art" movies.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> *All* have to bow before Bakunin's superior knowledge of specialist German "art" movies.



Well, after my last trip across the Channel I had to make the price of the ferry home_ somehow_.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 30, 2013)

I hate LP and Molly Poshtwat but on the otherhand "calling someone out" because they did a black friday sale on their art is just Adbusters moralistic "anti consumerism".


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 30, 2013)

revol68 said:


> I hate LP and Molly Poshtwat but on the otherhand "calling someone out" because they did a black friday sale on their art is just Adbusters moralistic "anti consumerism".



This. People who do this are personalising politics just as much as the worse of the intersectionalistas.

Loads of people sell stuff on Etsy and EBay and do Black Friday style stuff, lots of working class people included, the system is changing.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Kial la malamas esperanton, kamarado?



VP, yesterday:


----------



## J Ed (Dec 1, 2013)

Staggers sez movember is racist http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Staggers sez movember is racist http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be





> With large numbers of minority-ethnic men—for instance Kurds, Indians, Mexicans—sporting moustaches as a cultural or religious signifier, Movember reinforces the “othering” of “foreigners” by the generally clean-shaven, white majority.



Personally, I don't grow a 'tache because it would make me look like Joe Stalin.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 1, 2013)

That's the Arianne Shahvisi from both Oxford and Cambridge Univerities is it?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's the Arianne Shahvisi from both Oxford and Cambridge Univerities is it?



And they say women can't have it all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Personally, I don't grow a 'tache because it would make me look like Joe Stalin.


alive or dead?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Dec 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Staggers sez movember is racist http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be



Good God. Do they often close comments?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> alive or dead?



No man, no problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Staggers sez movember is racist http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be


it must have been a quiet evening in the bar when that was written.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 1, 2013)

I think November is a racist month tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I think November is a racist month tbh


yeh many's the time i've seen november creep up behind minority ethnic men and shout foul, disgusting abuse in their ears


----------



## Belushi (Dec 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Staggers sez movember is racist http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be


 
We need a new spoke on the wheel of oppression! White clean shaven vs ethnic 'tache


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 1, 2013)

Did not well-known racist singer Morrisey pen the ditty "November spawned a monster"?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 1, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Staggers sez movember is racist http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be



Jesus Christ on a fucksticle!


----------



## BigTom (Dec 1, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I think November is a racist month tbh



PD needs to claim that Vember is a racist term, and that the month of No Vember is a celebration of historic racist pogroms against whichever group we can make some tenuous link to with the word Vember. 

That article is just fantastic. Has a point about the reaction to women not shaving but everything else is just


----------



## emanymton (Dec 1, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Jesus Christ on a fucksticle!


We can agree that racist or not Movember is a load of fucking shite though, right?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 1, 2013)

i think movember is a load of shite but racist?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 1, 2013)

Someone in the comments suggested that the next article about sober october (I guess they mean dry January) is just mocking Muslims lol


----------



## J Ed (Dec 1, 2013)

After Miley, those criticising Miley, Lily Allen, that other one that sang a song in a kimono or something the AWL and its front groups and now Movember... who next will fall victim to the vampire's castle?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 1, 2013)

> The idea is that men, on the whole, visit their doctor less frequently, are more cagey about discussing health issues with friends and family, and lead less healthy lifestyles. Undoubtedly, these factors combine to contribute to a shorter male life expectancy, which is thought to be in large part due to higher rates of heart and vascular disease (interestingly, not the sex-specific diseases that Movember targets). If there is to be a male-focused health campaign, shouldn't it be centred on tackling the root causes of this gender disparity? Shouldn't the campaign instead be focused on deconstructing the strict gender norms that keep so many men suffering silently? Shouldn't it be built around teaching men to self-examine for lumps, challenging taboos surrounding psychiatric illness, and encouraging men to minimise drinking, smoking and red meat consumption, all of which have been associated with increased risk of heart disease and cancer?



Sorry, is the answer not "yes" to this? And Movember is a ridiculous corporate parody now.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sorry, is the answer not "yes" to this? And Movember is a ridiculous corporate parody now.


A small nugget of truth in the article doesn't make the rest of it any less absurd (and countet productive)


----------



## revol68 (Dec 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sorry, is the answer not "yes" to this? And Movember is a ridiculous corporate parody now.



That bit would be fair enough, but hanging it off the "sexier" click bait hook of it being racist etc is just fucking dreadful.

At what point did being left wing move from being about believing in a radical transformation of the world to this navel gazing sort of drivel? These people aren't radicals they are just professional craic vacuums who define militancy by their ability to be offended by anything. They could find power disparities in their porridge yet seem blind to their Oxbridge educations.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 2, 2013)

In northern ireland all the jokes are about Movember taches making you look  like an 80's provo/RUC man.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)

revol68 said:


> That bit would be fair enough, but hanging it off the "sexier" click bait hook of it being racist etc is just fucking dreadful.
> 
> At what point did being left wing move from being about believing in a radical transformation of the world to this navel gazing sort of drivel? These people aren't radicals they are just professional craic vacuums who define militancy by their ability to be offended by anything. They could find power disparities in their porridge yet seem blind to their Oxbridge educations.



At the moment it realised that it was powerless to enact meaningful social change.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> it must have been a quiet evening in the bar when that was written.



Either that or the morning after a particularly good night in the bar.

Staggers is to journalism what William Shatner is to popular music.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Either that or the morning after a particularly good night in the bar.
> 
> Staggers is to journalism what William Shatner is to popular music.


unfair to william shatner


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

revol68 said:


> In northern ireland all the jokes are about Movember taches making you look  like an 80's provo/RUC man.


or like sinn fein's mitchell mclaughlin


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sorry, is the answer not "yes" to this? And Movember is a ridiculous corporate parody now.



I agree completely with the quote you gave there, although I think if I framed it in those words whilst speaking to my mates I'd probably just be taken the piss out of and labeled as the guy who wears dresses at the weekend. Like it or not, the very same gender roles you speak of are a block to getting through on that level, and so making it all a bit of a laugh like movember does can break down that barrier and lead to other, more general conversations about these issues. And yes, more focus needs to be on heart-disease etc, but you start where you can and move one step at a time, I guess. Maybe it's just pragmatism - not very radical or transformative, but there it is.


----------



## rekil (Dec 2, 2013)

lauriepenny said:
			
		

> Can anyone recommend some good English-language accounts to follow on #ukraine?


Proper journalism. 

Can anyone be bothered sending her a link to the relevant threads here? Or should she be left to cheer on the far-right.


----------



## love detective (Dec 2, 2013)

wait until she posts a picture with a load of cuddly nazi flags in it, then tell her


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 2, 2013)

Yes, time, bide it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 2, 2013)

"Revenge is a dish best eaten cold" - old Klingon saying.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)

unfortunately she is probably reading this anyway but lets hope not


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> old Klingon saying.


_Sick is a dish best eaten cold_

We make our own rules.


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 2, 2013)

Gazpacho is a dish best eaten cold.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 2, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Gazpacho is a dish best eaten cold.


Which then makes you sick. The circle of sick.


----------



## rekil (Dec 2, 2013)

Sick Unity


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which then makes you sick.



Thus, the cosmic ballet continues.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 2, 2013)

So when will the Guardian pick up on the issue not being so simple exactly?


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> So when will the Guardian pick up on the issue not being so simple exactly?



Sorry, are we talking about the Movember issue, the Ukraine issue or the Gazpacho issue?

Or are they all three fundamentally one issue when then correct dialectic is applied?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 2, 2013)

Ukraine.

Now I'm imagining some sort of borscht-gazpacho hybrid being sucked through a moustache - yuck!


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 2, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> Gazpacho is a dish best eaten cold.




warm with crusty bread

this will continue


----------



## J Ed (Dec 2, 2013)

Apparently raw beetroot soup actually exists


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Apparently raw beetroot soup actually exists


so does jellyfish salad, but i wouldn't eat it.


----------



## love detective (Dec 2, 2013)

It's called Chlodnik in Polish, very popular - nicer than it looks

edit: that's not quite right, it's served cold but it's not raw


----------



## chilango (Dec 2, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> warm with crusty bread
> 
> this will continue



How?

Firebox is closed.

This is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 2, 2013)

Asturian miners roam across London, breakfastless...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)

love detective said:


> It's called Chlodnik in Polish, very popular - nicer than it looks
> 
> edit: that's not quite right, it's served cold but it's not raw



I love Eastern European food, but most of it does taste nicer than it looks, smells, or is indeed called a lot of the time.


----------



## chilango (Dec 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Asturian miners roam across London, breakfastless...



Well they'll just have to hop on a flight to San Fran and queue up for lattes like everybody else...they ought to check their mealtime privilege.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Asturian miners roam across London, breakfastless...



Ah, Vienna.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Ah, Vienna.


it means nothing to me.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 2, 2013)

Let's not forget that Laurie Penny penned the Asturian language poem 'Saudade' in tribute to the strength of feeling to which the Asturian diaspora attach  the absence of fresh tomatoes, garlic and Turkish bread


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Let's not forget that Laurie Penny penned the Asturian language poem 'Saudade' in tribute to the strength of feeling to which the Asturian diaspora attach  the absence of fresh tomatoes, garlic and Turkish bread


there's an idea. why don't you pen a poem - in a language of your choice - to _la_ penny?


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

Is this thread somehow fated to twist and turn but always return to this one annoying member of the commentariat?



> Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest Penny?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

andysays said:


> Is this thread somehow fated to twist and turn but always return to this one annoying member of the commentariat?


penny for your thoughts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

andysays said:


> Is this thread somehow fated to twist and turn but always return to this one annoying member of the commentariat?


red laurie yellow laurie


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> red laurie yellow laurie



She could do a report on Thailand and Molly could use it as a theme.


----------



## chilango (Dec 2, 2013)

andysays said:


> Is this thread somehow fated to twist and turn but always return to this one annoying member of the commentariat?



http://www.answers.com/topic/a-bad-penny-always-turns-up


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> penny for your thoughts.


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> penny for your thoughts.





Pickman's model said:


> red laurie yellow laurie


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> http://www.answers.com/topic/a-bad-penny-always-turns-up


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 2, 2013)

andysays said:


>


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 2, 2013)




----------



## rekil (Dec 2, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> She could do a report on Thailand and Molly could use it as a theme.


And then Brian WheLAD could do a Vice piece on them under the heading Babes In Thailand.


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>




That's a jolly, jangly tune. Does it have anything to do with the subject of this thread?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)

andysays said:


> That's a jolly, jangly tune. Does it have anything to do with the subject of this thread?


----------



## rekil (Dec 2, 2013)




----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)




----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


>




Nah, you've both lost me


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2013)

andysays said:


> Nah, you've both lost me


next time keep hold of Spanky Longhorn's hand and don't wander off by yourself.

this is the moral of the story of JIM, as told by hilaire belloc:


There was a boy whose name was Jim
His friends were very good to him
They gave him tea and cakes and jam
And slices of delicious ham
And chocolate with pink inside
And little tricycles to ride





They read him stories through and through
And even took him to the zoo
But there it was the awful fate
Befell him, which I now relate
You know (at least you ought to know
For I have often told you so)
That children never are allowed
To leave their nurses in a crowd
Now this was Jim's especial foible
He ran away when he was able
And on this inauspicious day
He slipped his hand and ran away
He hadn't gone a yard when BANG




With open jaws a lion sprang
And hungrily began to eat
The boy, beginning at his feet
Now just imagine how it feels
When first your toes and then your heels
And then by varying degrees
Your shins and ankles, calves and knees
Are slowly eaten bit by bit
No wonder Jim detested it




No wonder that he shouted "Ai"
The honest keeper heard his cry
Though very fat, he almost ran
To help the little gentleman




"Ponto," he ordered as he came
For Ponto was the lion's name
"Ponto," he said with angry frown
"Down sir, let go, put it down!"
The lion made a sudden stop
He let the dainty morsel drop
And slunk reluctant to his cage
Snarling with disappointed rage
But when he bent him over, Jim
The honest keeper's eyes grew dim
The lion having reached his head
The miserable boy was dead




When nurse informed his parents they
Were more concerned than I can say
His mother as she dried her eyes
Said "It gives me no surprise
He would not do as he was told."
His father who was self-controlled
Bade all the children round attend
To James's miserable end.
And always keep ahold of nurse
For fear of finding something worse.


----------



## chilango (Dec 2, 2013)




----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2013)

*The Green Eye Of The Little Yellow God*
There's a one-eyed yellow idol to the north of Khatmandu,
There's a little marble cross below the town;
There's a broken-hearted woman tends the grave of Mad Carew,
And the Yellow God forever gazes down.

He was known as "Mad Carew" by the subs at Khatmandu,
He was hotter than they felt inclined to tell;
But for all his foolish pranks, he was worshipped in the ranks,
And the Colonel's daughter smiled on him as well.

He had loved her all along, with a passion of the strong,
The fact that she loved him was plain to all.
She was nearly twenty-one and arrangements had begun
To celebrate her birthday with a ball.

He wrote to ask what present she would like from Mad Carew;
They met next day as he dismissed a squad;
And jestingly she told him then that nothing else would do
But the green eye of the little Yellow God.

On the night before the dance, Mad Carew seemed in a trance,
And they chaffed him as they puffed at their cigars:
But for once he failed to smile, and he sat alone awhile,
Then went out into the night beneath the stars.

He returned before the dawn, with his shirt and tunic torn,
And a gash across his temple dripping red;
He was patched up right away, and he slept through all the day,
And the Colonel's daughter watched beside his bed.

He woke at last and asked if they could send his tunic through;
She brought it, and he thanked her with a nod;
He bade her search the pocket saying "That's from Mad Carew,"
And she found the little green eye of the god.

She upbraided poor Carew in the way that women do,
Though both her eyes were strangely hot and wet;
But she wouldn't take the stone and Mad Carew was left alone
With the jewel that he'd chanced his life to get.

When the ball was at its height, on that still and tropic night,
She thought of him and hurried to his room;
As she crossed the barrack square she could hear the dreamy air
Of a waltz tune softly stealing thro' the gloom.

His door was open wide, with silver moonlight shining through;
The place was wet and slipp'ry where she trod;
An ugly knife lay buried in the heart of Mad Carew,
'Twas the "Vengeance of the Little Yellow God."

There's a one-eyed yellow idol to the north of Khatmandu,
There's a little marble cross below the town;
There's a broken-hearted woman tends the grave of Mad Carew,
And the Yellow God forever gazes down.


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2013)

chilango said:


>




I get that one though


----------



## rekil (Dec 2, 2013)

Official theme of PD's bi-weekly self-citicism sessions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Let's not forget that Laurie Penny penned the Asturian language poem 'Saudade' in tribute to the strength of feeling to which the Asturian diaspora attach  the absence of fresh tomatoes, garlic and Turkish bread



Thanks for reminding me of that poetic abortion, you cunt!


----------



## caleb (Dec 5, 2013)

Wow:

http://www.drb.ie/essays/noises-from-beneath

Penny doesn't get off lightly here.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 5, 2013)

that's a kicking, but a fair one IMO.  some very good points raised in that review.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 5, 2013)

"Twitter personality Laurie Penny...", is a beautiful jibe.


----------



## Favelado (Dec 5, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Let's not forget that Laurie Penny penned the Asturian language poem 'Saudade' in tribute to the strength of feeling to which the Asturian diaspora attach  the absence of fresh tomatoes, garlic and Turkish bread



Portuguese word innit? Maybe they say it in Galicia too. It's Galicia with the diaspora more than its neighbour as well..

This is going to be shit when you send me the link that explains it all though.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2013)

Good piece. Surprised there's been no comment on here about the suspension of the anonymous accounts for the sort of stuff mentioned in it this week.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 5, 2013)

Favelado said:


> Portuguese word innit? Maybe they say it in Galicia too. It's Galicia with the diaspora more than its neighbour as well..
> 
> This is going to be shit when you send me the link that explains it all though.



Yes, saudade is Galician and Portuguese, the Asturian language equivalent is actually señardá but I thought it would be funny anyway. I still have no clue why Penny called that god awful poem Saudade. There is a reasonably big Asturian diaspora, there are Asturian associations etc in Cuba today, every year in Oviedo there is a parade during the San Mateo fiesta celebrating Asturian emigrants.


----------



## belboid (Dec 5, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I still have no clue why Penny called that god awful poem Saudade.


because it has no direct english translation.  therefore it can be used in a way that is evocative but also completely meaningless! Hence she cant be told off for using it wrongly.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 5, 2013)

caleb said:


> Wow:
> 
> http://www.drb.ie/essays/noises-from-beneath
> 
> Penny doesn't get off lightly here.





> But the misogyny of Reddit and the lulz culture of 4chan are utterly unparalleled in the print world and is of a demonstrably different nature.



I agree with this completely, it's interesting to look at http://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays - while the subreddit is a bit heavy on privilege theory it's interesting because it documents just what a popular response outright misogyny gets on reddit in many cases. It's a radicalised misogyny in some cases too, the 'Mens' Rights' subreddits are very active.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 5, 2013)

belboid said:


> because it has no direct english translation.



Pity the 'poem' did.

Penny Dreadful: The William Shatner of wordsmiths.


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 5, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Pity the 'poem' did.
> 
> Penny Dreadful: The William Shatner of wordsmiths.


 
Unfair to Shatner!


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 5, 2013)

I thought that was a really good review - it paid L.P the respect of taking her ideas seriously. I thought this paragraph was quite apposite:

"Penny tells a story in which a sceptical bearded nerd at a hacker conference – a description of almost everyone who has ever gone to a hacker conference ‑ criticices feminists for making judgments about men without having all the information and is stunned into a expression of “quiet enlightenment” when Penny responds by asking if he has “all the information about himself”. She explains how she loves nerds and loves to “fuck” nerds and appeals to them that she was as nerdish and cut off from the shallow crowd and the jocks and popular kids as they were, presumably in whichever Californian high school she went to. The 4chan expression that “there are no girls on the internet” appealed to her at first, she says, because it meant being free of the girly mob, but she soon realised it referred to her too. It seems that Penny’s frustration comes from the fact that implicitly she is being left on the pile with the ordinary girls and their ordinary mainstream tastes, the kind who don’t get geek subcultures, who aren’t polyamorous and who generally lack subcultural capital. - See more at: http://www.drb.ie/essays/noises-from-beneath#sthash.yNwhpdXt.dpuf"

...the need to distinguish by establishing hierarchies of taste, the quest for 'sub-cultural capital' animate a lot of L.P's writing I think - more about lifestylism and advertising the 'correct' attitudes you hold rather than actual politics. Witness the knots she gets tied in over porn and page three etc.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 5, 2013)

well, this is just it.  lifestylism over content innit.


----------



## kavenism (Dec 5, 2013)

> The kind of intersectional geek feminism which Penny may consider an antidote regards almost the entire population as privilege-flaunting bigots and also has a culture of bullying, swarming and extraordinary nastiness online. The solution will be found in that cultural force which both Penny and her geek attackers define themselves in opposition to, the non-geek masses and their mainstream non-geek tastes, manners and values.


 
Bang the frig on the money.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes, some of the asides read a bit like an urban greatest hits selection.


----------



## rekil (Dec 6, 2013)

Telegraph blogger and nu media node Mic Wright said:
			
		

> Forbes says Ireland’s the best place in the world to do business. @websummithq did a lot to achieve that and is why @thexxcorp HQ is Dublin.


https://twitter.com/brokenbottleboy/status/408506637893513217




			
				rte said:
			
		

> The economic downturn had made it more attractive for companies moving to Ireland as nominal wages fell by 17% between 2008 and 2011, which help keep labour costs "in check".
> The fact that unemployment remains stubbornly high also means that companies have a large labour pool from which to pick from. Forbes notes that there are now over 1,000 overseas companies with a presence in Ireland.


The more fucked we are, the more it suits wankers like this.

Dunno what this whinge is about.


> Owen is the same age as me. Though we’ve both read the history books we weren’t there. Why does he act like he knows it all?


https://twitter.com/brokenbottleboy/status/408882010820984833


----------



## agricola (Dec 6, 2013)

copliker said:


> https://twitter.com/brokenbottleboy/status/408506637893513217
> 
> 
> The more fucked we are, the more it suits wankers like this.
> ...



Is there anything on that twitter account that doesnt scream "media node"?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 6, 2013)

agricola said:


> Is there anything on that twitter account that doesnt scream "media node"?


Rather more self-facilitating than before, certainly since the _Telegraph_ asked him to push off (plagiarism claims; denied).


----------



## J Ed (Dec 6, 2013)




----------



## rekil (Dec 6, 2013)

"The Left's New Voice" 

4 real.


----------



## kavenism (Dec 7, 2013)

J Ed said:


>


Laurie Penny, etc, etc, etc...
And why is she hiding behind a tea cup? Is it symbolic of the obscuring of mainstream celebrity identity achieved by being a 'Twitter personality'? And she's got her hood up like Emenim in dat film init. This image has so much edge I could literally cut myself looking at it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 7, 2013)

is that hollands equivalent of the NS?


----------



## treelover (Dec 7, 2013)

J Ed said:


>



Worrying....


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 7, 2013)

Why? It's just...naff. Incredibly naff.


treelover said:


> Worrying....


----------



## chilango (Dec 7, 2013)

treelover said:


> Worrying....



Nope. It's just utterly irrelevant.


----------



## Balbi (Dec 7, 2013)

That's Swedish.


----------



## rekil (Dec 7, 2013)

kavenism said:


> Laurie Penny, etc, etc, etc...
> And why is she hiding behind a tea cup? Is it symbolic of the obscuring of mainstream celebrity identity achieved by being a 'Twitter personality'? And she's got her hood up like Emenim in dat film init. This image has so much edge I could literally cut myself looking at it.


The photographer is one "Morgan Mayhem". Look how edgy he is, but not in a "manarchist" way.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 7, 2013)

Mark Fisher talks about his vampire's castle, Russel Brand and identity politics on the Left Business Observer podcast http://shout.lbo-talk.org/lbo/RadioArchive/2013/13_12_05.mp3


----------



## kavenism (Dec 7, 2013)

copliker said:


> The photographer is one "Morgan Mayhem". Look how edgy he is, but not in a "manarchist" way.
> 
> View attachment 44624


He looks like he might take his politics from The Matrix. Red pill politics. Two of them in fact.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 7, 2013)

caleb said:


> Wow:
> 
> http://www.drb.ie/essays/noises-from-beneath
> 
> Penny doesn't get off lightly here.



Fantastic article.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 7, 2013)

kavenism said:


> Laurie Penny, etc, etc, etc...
> And why is she hiding behind a tea cup? Is it symbolic of the obscuring of mainstream celebrity identity achieved by being a 'Twitter personality'? And she's got her hood up like Emenim in dat film init. This image has so much edge I could literally cut myself looking at it.



Maybe she just likes tea?



copliker said:


> The photographer is one "Morgan Mayhem". Look how edgy he is, but not in a "manarchist" way.
> 
> View attachment 44624



Anyone else remember that spoof "Pepe Le Punk" thing the Melody Maker used to run back in the 80s?


----------



## belboid (Dec 7, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Anyone else remember that spoof "Pepe Le Punk" thing the Melody Maker used to run back in the 80s?


I had forgotten till now


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2013)

Intersectionalista crisis of confidence:

http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/...re-white-dont-call-yourself-an-intersectional


----------



## rekil (Dec 10, 2013)

Laurie moaning about money and lying to people again apparently.

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/410074002112008192



			
				LP said:
			
		

> Dear [redacted startup mag editor]: no, I will not be writing you a 1,400 word article for free. No matter how many times you ask me.
> 
> I'm sorry, [redacted startup editor] you don't establish feminist, leftwing credentials by pestering a bunch of women to work for free.






			
				STRIKE! magazine ‏@strikeyo said:
			
		

> @PennyRed We asked you once and you told us: Later in the year, after September, I'll be able to contribute for free, so
> hit me up then.
> 
> So we asked you again. Because we love your work. And because we have no money. And because you asked us to.






			
				LP said:
			
		

> Particularly galling: male editor, asking all women writers to contribute to a 'feminist issue', for free, because of our principles. NO.






			
				STRIKE! magazine ‏@strikeyo said:
			
		

> @PennyRed None of us identify as male: 75% of us have vaginas. And we're non-hierarchical and anti-profit - much like @NewStatesman, no?


I wonder if they'd be interested in a piece about PD's forthcoming 'Occupy The New Statesman' campaign.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 10, 2013)

So, when is the occupation exactly? I've got some time off work coming up 

And LP should really learn not to bitch on twitter, especially when she's in the wrong.


----------



## Favelado (Dec 10, 2013)

She always ends up with egg on her face. Why doesn't she learn?


----------



## rekil (Dec 10, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> So, when is the occupation exactly? I've got some time off work coming up


Early 2014! We might at least have a poster done by then.


> And LP should really learn not to bitch on twitter, especially when she's in the wrong.


I'm guessing they're young. LP's last NS piece was about how


> Young women today are brilliant.
> 
> They. Are. Brilliant.


So much for letting down the ladder or whatever it was.

I see Nina Power and Ewa Jasiewicz (up a chimney somewhere according to the guardian) have done stuff for them without any fuss.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 10, 2013)

Well she worked for Spiked Online for free so maybe they got the idea of her writing articles for free from that


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

got an email yesterday from jews for justice for palestinians' newsletter, one of the items in it was wondering what will happen when "disenfranchised israelis' jewish privilege is eroded"

surely if they're disenfranchised then by definition they don't have any privilege.

they sometimes do good work but i cant help feeling annoyed by them at times


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2013)

New thread favourite Mic Wright has introduced old thread favourite Lisa Ansell to his mentor, _Telegraph_ blogs boss Damian Thompson.

The result?

BOOM

Owen Jones, Ken Loach, Left Unity, The Spirit Of '45, an off-stage Laurie Penny, an unmentioned _New Statesman_... Both barrels for one and all!



> Peddling sexist, racist, labour-movement misery porn is a long-established career path.



(Etc)


----------



## J Ed (Dec 10, 2013)

Laurie Penny accusing people of sexism (and even being an MRA) because they won't employ her/employ her on conditions slightly less favourable than she would like seems to be becoming  a theme. She seriously uses it as leverage to make money.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 10, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Laurie Penny accusing people of sexism (and even being an MRA) because they won't employ her/employ her on conditions slightly less favourable than she would like seems to be becoming  a theme. She seriously uses it as leverage to make money.



Funny, I thought she was quite happy to see people on less than minimum wage. When she wanted an intern for a book project, for instance...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Funny, I thought she was quite happy to see people on less than minimum wage. When she wanted an intern for a book project, for instance...


Don't bring facts into this.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

from the jfjfp newsletter



> Can posh boy Buji - Labour's new leader Isaac Herzog - rescue his party from decline by creating a new centre-left coalition? He is handsome and articulate, but not popular which may make strategies of finding common ground with smaller parties from left to centre the most important thing he can do


 
bourgeois "great men" theory, hes a politician in the racist, authoritarian israeli state, a bit like how people thought kim jong un would be all right cos hes educated in the west



> Although the small details of different groups may make it a difficult read, those details also show how immensely difficult it is in Israel, with its hugely fragmented body politic, to create a broad leftwing alliance. What will happen when the Jewish privilege of disenfranchised Israeli Jews disappears entirely? Will they turn to the anti-colonial cause, or to fascist reaction?


 


> Reuven Kaminer says the hawks screech to drown out the counsel of security chiefs.


 
those wise israeli security chiefs spreading words of peace and wisdom 



> Israel’s UK lobby that media bosses are afraid to challenge


 
"media bosses" as well  and a few lines down it says that more british people disagree with israel because its become the preserve of a "wealthy jewish elite" which are older more right wing and richer

so how can you be afraid to challenge something and see it as irrelevant, older right wing and richer at the same time

does being annoyed by this email make me some sort of zionist? or am i right to just think liberal single issue twats

ViolentPanda what do you think?


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Don't bring facts into this.








'We are the terrible spectres of truth, journalistic integrity and honest reportage...'

'We exist on facts...'

'We know that the use and checking of facts is a problem, that the dreaded 'facts' oppress you, that they are dangerous to your iron-clad, copper-bottomed political and professional principles, and that you fear the repeated appearance (bungling sub-editors notwithstanding) of what you mortals call 'truth'...'

'Woo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo...'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Intersectionalista crisis of confidence:
> 
> http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/...re-white-dont-call-yourself-an-intersectional



What a load of sucky fake-humble bullshit.
Feminism is about equality, not about establishing a fucking hierarchy of oppression by which some people have more validity than others.

The author is a fucking cockwit!


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Intersectionalista crisis of confidence:
> 
> http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/...re-white-dont-call-yourself-an-intersectional


That was hilarious.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

copliker said:


> Laurie moaning about money and lying to people again apparently.
> 
> https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/410074002112008192
> 
> ...


That was appalling.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

Occupying the new statesman would actually be a really good idea.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> got an email yesterday from jews for justice for palestinians' newsletter, one of the items in it was wondering what will happen when "disenfranchised israelis' jewish privilege is eroded"
> 
> surely if they're disenfranchised then by definition they don't have any privilege.
> 
> they sometimes do good work but i cant help feeling annoyed by them at times



TBF, I think that the point they're making is that in a state where you're a second-class citizen unless you're a Jew, that even as a "disenfranchised Jew" you still possess a certain degree of social capital that your Arab Israeli contemporaries don't, and that your Palestinian contemporaries are unlikely ever to have.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, I think that the point they're making is that in a state where you're a second-class citizen unless you're a Jew, that even as a "disenfranchised Jew" you still possess a certain degree of social capital that your Arab Israeli contemporaries don't, and that your Palestinian contemporaries are unlikely ever to have.


 
i get that tho, but the rest of the email was such a load of wank


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> from the jfjfp newsletter
> 
> 
> 
> bourgeois "great men" theory, hes a politician in the racist, authoritarian israeli state, a bit like how people thought kim jong un would be all right cos hes educated in the west



Why are you surprised?  The history of the political leadership of the state of Israel is one enunciation after another of the "great man" theory (albeit with one "great woman" in the mix).






> those wise israeli security chiefs spreading words of peace and wisdom



Although currently, it *is* those very people who're holding the civvie hawks in check with regard to Iran.  Fat Benny has a hard-on for attacking Iran - he *knows* it'll shore up his political position for a little while - and the military know that an airstrike will bring retaliation to israel down through Lebanon and across Syria.



> "media bosses" as well  and a few lines down it says that more british people disagree with israel because its become the preserve of a "wealthy jewish elite" which are older more right wing and richer



It'd be more apt to talk about *why* the OWNERS of the media aren't particularly in favour of the "Israel lobby" in the UK, than to imply that it's editorial policy, because (especially as regards the dailies) for the last 5+ years, it's been all about "seeling" their brand into the US, where articles critical of the state of Israel tend to produce a bombardment of propaganda and _hasbara_ from thousands of mini-rachamims.



> so how can you be afraid to challenge something and see it as irrelevant, older right wing and richer at the same time
> 
> does being annoyed by this email make me some sort of zionist? or am i right to just think liberal single issue twats
> 
> ViolentPanda what do you think?



You're right to think that they're liberal single-issue twats, frankly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That was hilarious.



You could almost hear the sounds of self-flagellation.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

im not surprised really its liberal commentariat fodder

at this rate im going to get like lletsa by the time im 30


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

i can't ever see israel attacking iran

maybe i'm naive but they've been talking about it for decades, i can't see it frankly i think it's something that gets wheeled out to keep the far-right elements of israeli society and ruling class happy. i don't think it'll ever happen.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Occupying the new statesman would actually be a really good idea.



100% agree, forcing the Fabians to recognise the NUJ would be a great demand too. Also, picket Helen Lewis' home since she obviously hates and fears that union tactic.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

_Establish PD leverage squads!

Bombard the HL HQ!_


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

and the Iranian gov is also happy to sabre rattle over Israel to the home crowd when it suits.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Intersectionalista crisis of confidence:
> 
> http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/...re-white-dont-call-yourself-an-intersectional


 


> We as white feminists often use this term without ever engaging with Black womanists and Black feminists


 
WTF is a womanist and how are they distinguished from feminists?


----------



## belboid (Dec 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> WTF is a womanist and how are they distinguished from feminists?


they're black.

Sorry, 'of color'  [they're all yanks, so it is spelled that way]


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> WTF is a womanist and how are they distinguished from feminists?


the real question is how are they distinguised from a womaniser.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> and the Iranian gov is also happy to sabre rattle over Israel to the home crowd when it suits.


you sabre rattle to the people you want to intimidate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i can't ever see israel attacking iran
> 
> maybe i'm naive but they've been talking about it for decades, i can't see it frankly i think it's something that gets wheeled out to keep the far-right elements of israeli society and ruling class happy. i don't think it'll ever happen.



Given the territorial imperatives if the _eretz yisroel_ crowd, I'm not as sure as you are.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> _Establish PD leverage squads!
> 
> Bombard the HL HQ!_


 
Establish a trade-union led enquiry into the non-unionisation of the New Statesman led by workers, small business owners and members of the local community.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Given the territorial imperatives if the _eretz yisroel_ crowd, I'm not as sure as you are.


 
it's certainly possible, but there's more political mileage to be gained in threatening to do it than actually doing it imo


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

Towards a publically owned new statesman managed by a committee of workers, peasants and the poor!


----------



## BigTom (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Intersectionalista crisis of confidence:
> 
> http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/...re-white-dont-call-yourself-an-intersectional



What's a "womanist" as opposed to a feminist? Never heard that term before. That article is a joke surely.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you sabre rattle to the people you want to intimidate.




perhaps 'for rather than 'to' then


----------



## rekil (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Occupying the new statesman would actually be a really good idea.


It'd be a great opportunity to publicise our Comrade Bala defence fund as well.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 10, 2013)

Unpaid interns, frag your editors and their "stable" of columnists!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

oh god yes.

i'll pm you later, got some ideas


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

has there ever been a straight answer from anyone at NS as to why they don't recognize the NUJ?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> has there ever been a straight answer from anyone at NS as to why they don't recognize the NUJ?


Did you think there there would have been a straight answer from anyone at NS as to why they don't recognise the NUJ?


----------



## rekil (Dec 10, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> has there ever been a straight answer from anyone at NS as to why they don't recognize the NUJ?



 

Not only that but lazy kneejerk reactions are the PD stock in trade. You can do better than that Lewis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Do you there there would have been a straight answer from anyone at NS as to why they don't recognise the NUJ?


there won't be because they don't like admitting they're a bunch of right-wing shits.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 10, 2013)

Lewis' class consciousness is very strong https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/396957454636171264


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2013)

copliker said:


> You can do better than that Lewis.



Unlikely!


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 10, 2013)

There must, surely, have been a time when the NS _was _unionised, as all left publications would have been? So when did it stop?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

surely knee jerks by definition can't be lazy.


bunch of cunts- I find myself irresistibly drawn to read their articles and gnash my teeth though.


----------



## treelover (Dec 10, 2013)

copliker said:


> Laurie moaning about money and lying to people again apparently.
> 
> https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/410074002112008192
> 
> ...




Wish someone would occupy the IPPR 'think tank' HQ, misery they have caused much outweighs the NS', etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> Wish someone would occupy the IPPR 'think tank' HQ, misery they have caused much outweighs the NS', etc.


Get cracking then.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 10, 2013)

copliker said:


> Laurie moaning about money and lying to people again apparently.
> 
> https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/410074002112008192
> 
> ...



Oh dear. The "I don't have much money" shtick. Wasn't she trotting across different parts of America fairly recently?


----------



## captainmission (Dec 10, 2013)

Theisticle said:


> Oh dear. The "I don't have much money" shtick. Wasn't she trotting across different parts of America fairly recently?



Anyone know much you get paid for articles in the NS, guardian, appearances on this morning, etc ?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Get cracking then.


*...*


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Intersectionalista crisis of confidence:
> 
> http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/...re-white-dont-call-yourself-an-intersectional



Some of those themes appear in this piece by Lola Okolosie in the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-feminist-movement-fails-women-black-minority



> Within the media, and indeed the movement, there has been much celebration of our feminist resurgence. Yet our success is being marred by infighting. White, middle-class and young women are often seen as the ones spearheading this new wave of activity. Their high-profile campaigns – to have women on banknotes, challenge online misogyny and banish Page 3, for example – though necessary and praiseworthy, do not reflect the most pressing needs of the majority of women, black and minority-ethnic women included. The problem is not that these campaigns exist, but that they are given a focus and attention that overshadows other work feminists are engaged with.



That's something I've definitely noticed. It always irked me to hear people use the jargon of intersectionalism as if that alone qualifies them to speak on behalf of the oppressed masses, and that their every utterance is endorsed by all people experiencing oppression everywhere (which convenently affords an individual the luxury of being able to dismiss anyone who disagrees or dissents _as being against those people _just as someone who attacks a fringe far-left party might be accused of being anti working class) but then go on to focus their activities on purifying the etiquette of certain spaces.

I've always thought that if this intersectional left really did speak to the everday concerns of people (such as Lola's mother in this article) it wouldn't be so heavily concentrated towards what's being said in the media, or on certain sections of the internet discourse, it would have other expressions and focuses. That it does seem to concentrate so heavily on the priorities of very nice and sincere "white middle-class uni educated girls" Lola mentions is that the social base of a lot of this is within the university system, that's where people encounter this terminology and these writers and from there it slowly filters down though the Guardian and the internet etc to a small section of wider society (that reads the guardian, is internet literate etc) but it's fairly restricted to those who have the cultural capital to be part of that discourse in the first place, people who were in the position to go to uni and participate. Those who are culturally and economically excluded from that, who don't have the cultural capital to participate really effectively in those movements, are excluded. This comes up in that Dublin Review of Books critique of Laurie Penny. It barely needs pointing out that of course this includes vast numbers of black women who despite their multitude of intersecting oppresions are just as marginalised and apathetic about these politics movements as anyone else. To her credit Lola does mention this:



> Though women who live in the "real world" – ie outside academia – may not bandy the word intersectionality, it nevertheless speaks to our lives within it. This is not to deny that power can be invested in language and that for some the term is perhaps alienating. It would be great if we had a word already in existence that conveys the complex and complicated nature of oppression. We do not. The language that we currently use serves to compartmentalise inequalities. It won't do. I am less interested in whether feminists choose to use the word or replace it with (no less academic) phrases such as multiple oppressions. What is of greater concern is how we work to empower women whose lives are impacted by a number of inequalities.



I agree with this. The language is alienating to a great many people and it does lend itself to compartmentalising inequalities, the very heirachy of opppresions/top trumps stuff that supposedly it's against. Wether that's a language problem or a deeper problem I don't know. But the point is that whilst it might be alienating to people outside, to those inside who do have the elite education that sort of language isn't alienating at all, infact the jargon's part of the appeal I think. Within the sub-cultures themselves this sort of language is used to identify who's part of the in-group, it's a little identifier and there's nothing new about that Marxists pioneered this sort of stuff, but every in-group has it's own little language games, etiquette and jargon

And then there's something about this that that sounds awfully close to "we can speak on behalf of you because we've got a proper education" in exactly the same way university educated Marxists would presume to speak for The Class. Just as (some) Marxists have their own jargon, employing this jargon then gives them right to speak on behalf of the transformative historical agent. Then there's this:



> Critically, black feminism is championing a more nuanced understanding of how oppression and privilege operate. We, all of us, must understand that at the level of the individual, we can at differing points occupy positions of privilege. I am a black woman from a working-class background. I also have qualifications from elite universities that mean I am able to access a career, friendships and a lifestyle my 18-year-old self would never have imagined. When and where I experience privilege or oppression changes from day to day, hour to hour.



I'm not sure I agree with this perspective. I think it actually contradicts something that was earlier in the article said about structural analysis, and it's in danger of doing two things which I've always disliked when it comes to intersectional identity politics - 1)having a structural analysis is firmly subjective and based on the level of individual experience (Mark Fisher mentioned individualising in his Vampire Castle thing but I'd noticed it before, it's appeal often lies in the fact that by doing this you can accuse anyone who disagrees with your conclusions with negating/invalidating the experiences of The Oppressed) and then 2)reducing things down to a binary choice between privilege and oppression, but not in the absolute and measurable way that the term privilege traditionally meant but subjectively, and centred on the individual, and whatever oppressions happen to be intersecting at that time for that one person -  so you can be privileged in one space, oppressed in another, it's all quite slippery for a structural analysis. It's about the individual within certain spaces and I don't think it does look at how wider society functions very much at all.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm just in it for the twitter meltdowns and hair shirted apologies


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

to be fair marxism has no fewer problems with jargon that doesnt relate to the rest of the world. "dialectics" for example, "the negation of the negation" etc

someone in the sp once tried, and failed to explain this to me


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

well surely there is a difference between language that is jargon laden because of its neccesary specificity and language that is deliberately obfuscational in order to sideline the uninitiated?

for instance listening to a pair of sparkies talk shop would be a bit har to follow but its just trade talk.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 10, 2013)

everything that needs a theory needs explanatory terms that appear to be jargon.  but the jargon should be for the initiated and those seeking a greater understanding of the subject, you don't need jargon to explain marx or feminism to someone who doesn't know what it is, because both rely on an understanding of and empathy for experiences that are commonplace across all human experience.  IMO, obv.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

some marxist stuff IS deliberately obfuscational (altho not necessarily to exclude people, but to make the person saying it sound clever) ime


----------



## chilango (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> some marxist stuff IS deliberately obfuscational (altho not necessarily to exclude people, but to make the person saying it sound clever) ime



I love the irony in your use of the term "obfuscational" in that post.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> some marxist stuff IS deliberately obfuscational (altho not necessarily to exclude people, but to make the person saying it sound clever) ime



its the passwords to the advanced layer's special canteen.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

we aren't the only ones tho, religions do it as well with stuff like "witnessing" which is completely different to its original meaning

 "i witnessed a crime" vs "i witnessed to the message of the gospel" (i knocked on someones door and asked them if they wanted to talk about jesus")


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> some marxist stuff IS deliberately obfuscational (altho not necessarily to exclude people, but to make the person saying it sound clever) ime



Exactly, obviously there's a need for some specific terminology in any kind of intellectual or political movement but that language then has a social dimension, how you employ that language ends sorting people based on their education, class, cultural capital, all these things. You'd have to be deliberately myopic to not see the same sorts of tendency on the intersectional twitter circuit.

I mean Marxists are terrible for this, it's not just about needing a speficic jargon but it's about demonstrating how Marxism and Socialism is such an incredibly complicated and difficult things that you'd better just leave it to the well educated to deal with and not concern yourself with these topics. It's sad because one of the old slogans was "Theory is a weapon in the hands of the workers" but of course then ends being "theory is a weapon in the hands of the vanguard" and I see a bit of this informal vanguardism taking place amongsta intersectionalista's too.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> we aren't the only ones tho, religions do it as well with stuff like "witnessing"



evangelica/baptist jargon is well easy to parse though.

he says having grown upin that tradition

but I think religious cant has greater accessibility due to the commonality of its linguistic/thematic structure 


*beard stroke*


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

when i first joined the sp i found all the talk of "layers" etc really off putting, and then about two years later i started using that terminology myself


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> we aren't the only ones tho, religions do it as well with stuff like "witnessing"



Isn't this what Fisher was getting at in his Vampire Castle thing? If you can actually discern a proper point out of it by scraping away the terrible analogy and the hip lecturer talk, that's priestly in that it offers redemption through them, through adopting their catechism, only they are the ones who can read the right scriptures they're the ones who can discern god's will, all that is contingent on the language.

Lawyers too. Having their own legalese makes them the conduit through which you access the law. They're the only ones who can translate, you employ their services as translators of the law in order to have access to it - if the law were simple enough for anyone to understand there'd be much less need for lawyers.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> when i first joined the sp i found all the talk of "layers" etc really off putting, and then about two years later i started using that terminology myself



Militant had their own language and gestures _par excellence_ though I mean they're a great example. 

Astonishing really that the managed to get such a large amount of support for a while in Liverpool when they talked the way they did and used such awful jargon.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Exactly, obviously there's a need for some specific terminology in any kind of intellectual or political movement but that language then has a social dimension, who you employ that language ends sorting people based on their education, class, cultural capital, all these things. You'd have to be deliberately myopic to not see the same sorts of tendency on the intersectional twitter circuit.
> 
> I mean Marxists are terrible for this, it's not just about needing a speficic but it's about demonstrating how Marxism and Socialism is such an incredibly complicated and difficult things that you'd better just leave it to the well educated to deal with and not concern yourself with these topics. It's sad because one of the old slogans was "Theory is a weapon in the hands of the workers" but of course then ends being "theory is a weapon in the hands of the vanguard" and I see a bit of this informal vanguardism taking place amongsta intersectionalista's too.


That's just wankers. They'd be the same anyway. Cults might help them a bit but not much.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Militant had their own language and gestures _par excellence_ though I mean they're a great example.
> 
> Astonishing really that the managed to get such a large amount of support for a while in Liverpool when they talked the way they did and used such awful jargon.


You were what, 8?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Militant had their own language and gestures _par excellence_ though I mean they're a great example.
> 
> Astonishing really that the managed to get such a large amount of support for a while in Liverpool when they talked the way they did and used such awful jargon.


 
also its quite common among them to talk about "dot and comma" ie "every dot and comma of our programme is based on marxist dialectics"


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Militant had their own language and gestures _par excellence_ though I mean they're a great example.
> 
> Astonishing really that the managed to get such a large amount of support for a while in Liverpool when they talked the way they did and used such awful jargon.




Militant had Jazz hands? I thought they got invented at occupy movements


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You were what, 8?



My mum and a few other family members were all militant sympathetic Labour members in Liverpool in the 80's.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> My mum and a few other family members were all militant sympathetic Labour members in Liverpool in the 80's.


Yeah but you were what, 8?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah but you were what, 8?



Less probably. 

I was very astute for my age though


----------



## J Ed (Dec 10, 2013)

Parsing through a few twitter reactions to the protests at ULU this week, one thing that seems to come up a few times and it's something that has been mentioned to me by otherwise politically sympathetic people in the past, is the fact that the left often comes across as just another fashion subculture. There are definitely people who want to get involved with left activism, or agree on specific issues which the left currently organises itself around, but they hear language like 'intersectional', get told to check their privilege or see students constructing shields to look like an Edward Said book or whatever and think to themselves that they do not want to spend any time with these people at all.

They think of the left as a fashion subculture, sort of like how at school you had goths and stuff.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

"trotsky is my homeboy" etc


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Parsing through a few twitter reactions to the protests at ULU this week, one thing that seems to come up a few times and it's something that has been mentioned to me by otherwise politically sympathetic people in the past, is the fact that the left often comes across as just another fashion subculture. There are definitely people who want to get involved with left activism, or agree on specific issue which the left currently organises itself around, but they hear language like 'intersectional', get told to check their privilege or see students constructing shields to look like an Edward Said book or whatever an think to themselves that they do not want to spend any time with these people at all.
> 
> They think of the left as a fashion subculture, sort of like how at school you had goths and stuff.


Spot on. It's them doing that. Not me. You'd think the post 92 expansion of uni education would make fingers in the class but it's been 20 years of separation.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Parsing through a few twitter reactions to the protests at ULU this week, one thing that seems to come up a few times and it's something that has been mentioned to me by otherwise politically sympathetic people in the past, is the fact that the left often comes across as just another fashion subculture. There are definitely people who want to get involved with left activism, or agree on specific issue which the left currently organises itself around, but they hear language like 'intersectional', get told to check their privilege or see students constructing shields to look like an Edward Said book or whatever an think to themselves that they do not want to spend any time with these people at all.
> 
> They think of the left as a fashion subculture, sort of like how at school you had goths and stuff.


 
they're not always wrong.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> some marxist stuff IS deliberately obfuscational (altho not necessarily to exclude people, but to make the person saying it sound clever) ime



Because it's translated from the German, a lot of it.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 10, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Militant had Jazz hands? I thought they got invented at occupy movements



Ploughshares were worse. A heated meeting there could have been mistaken for a Saturday Night Fever tribute concert.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 10, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Less probably.
> 
> I was very astute for my age though



I was at my most political as an eight year old. Absolutely believed my dad when he told me Leonid Brezhnev was the leader of the worlds working classes and couldn't wait to grow up and defect to the Eastern Bloc.


----------



## treelover (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> when i first joined the sp i found all the talk of "layers" etc really off putting, and then about two years later i started using that terminology myself



I hate that term, so mechanistic, etc.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

it makes me think of like soil or a carpet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> also its quite common among them to talk about "dot and comma" ie "every dot and comma of our programme is based on marxist dialectics"


what about the words?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> it makes me think of like soil or a carpet.


or soiling a carpet


----------



## treelover (Dec 10, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/10/police-violence-students-workers-protests

Laura on the new student uprisings

no comments yet...


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2013)

you know the sort of thing on gardening programmes. "and now we'll add a layer of topsoil" etc


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> it makes me think of like soil or a carpet.



Always reminded me of this when I hear talk of layers


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> "and now we'll add a layer of topsoil" etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

Bakunin said:


>


image fail


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> you know the sort of thing on gardening programmes. "and now we'll add a layer of topsoil" etc


i was thinking more of nightsoil


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 11, 2013)

Have we had ‘#smugsexual’ yet? It seems to be a thing which is causing yet more fractures and realignments and fallings-out and refriending amongst the intersectional of the earth. I think Helen Lewis might be something to do with it, and/or the Mark Fisher ‘Vampire Castles’ thing. 

Certainly Sam Ambreen and Mediocre Dave (obliquely of this parish) seem most unamused.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 11, 2013)

what does it mean> that you fuck Toby Jugs, Steins etc?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 11, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> what does it mean> that you fuck Toby Jugs, Steins etc?


I'm not wholly confident of answering that, but I think it's perceived as something a sneery epithet thrown out in the manner of ‘slut shaming’.

Who's been hurling it at whom and for why is something I have no intention of investigating, certainly not at 1am when I'm off to bed. But it has been bobbing up and down along my timeline tonight like a poorly-weighted corpse in the canal.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 11, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> But it has been bobbing up and down along my timeline tonight like a poorly-weighted corpse in the canal.



If the media is a huge toilet bowl then the commentariat are the vile unflushables residing therein.


----------



## captainmission (Dec 11, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Have we had ‘#smugsexual’ yet? .



Someone on my face book posted it up. It relates to this guff- http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/smugsexual-and-the-closet-two-faces-of-feminist-biphobia/

Some one said they didn't like faux lesbians. Then some one said that's bi phobic. But since its intersectional they managed to get several thousand words out of it, claiming the other was priviledged whilst they were marganilised, that it deeply violated the core of their personal being and made them trigger all over the floor.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm not wholly confident of answering that, but I think it's perceived as something a sneery epithet thrown out in the manner of ‘slut shaming’.
> 
> Who's been hurling it at whom and for why is something I have no intention of investigating, certainly not at 1am when I'm off to bed. But it has been bobbing up and down along my timeline tonight like a poorly-weighted corpse in the canal.


http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/smugsexual-and-the-closet-two-faces-of-feminist-biphobia/


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 11, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> If the media is a huge toilet bowl then the commentariat are the vile unflushables residing therein.




check your floater privilege, some of us have turds that near enough crack the pan


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

oh gawds, i tried to read that shit. someone help me

#twitterspat #usualsuspects #wasteofspace 

as far as I can tell, the whole shebang is about which intersectional feminists can spend more time tripping over themselves to self abase, while completely ignoring the hypocracy of claiming to be more self abasing than though so they actually can appropriate the words and stories of others to further their career


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/smugsexual-and-the-closet-two-faces-of-feminist-biphobia/





> GBLTQIA





Spoiler: *HEAD EXPLODES*











Good night.


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 11, 2013)

I didn't get past the title.


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> GBLTQIA


Gay, bi, lesbian, trans, queer, inter and asexual???

(I'm fucked if I'm gonna click on the article just to find out)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 11, 2013)

At risk of appearing to *ahem* _mansplain_, is ‘biphobia’ really the most pressing issue facing women at the moment? More than domestic abuse, pay inequality, reduced opportunities, bearing the weight of family responsibilities, being disproportionately criminalised for being poor, etc?


----------



## captainmission (Dec 11, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> At risk of appearing to *ahem* _mansplain_, is ‘biphobia’ really the most pressing issue facing women at the moment? More than domestic abuse, pay inequality, reduced opportunities, bearing the weight of family responsibilities, being disproportionately criminalised for being poor, etc?



No but it does affect bi people, and bisexuals a lot of shit from the gay and lesbian community. Being dismissed a phase, or fake gays or lesbians or being traitors to the cause. Its a debate that been had for decades. It's just in the diseased discourse of intersectionalism it can only had in terms oppresser/oppressed binaries, taking ever statement as a personal attack, engaging in ritual humiliation of calling out and with no hope of reconiliation.


----------



## Balbi (Dec 11, 2013)

It's all a massive pain in the arse.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

im bisexual. i have experienced it, its a problem. however i see biphobia as like partially a product of the sort of gay "nationalism" that has come out of the depoliticisation etc of gay pride struggles and seeing gay people as like a separate "nation" (ie gay pride flags, the concept of gay culture being completely separate from straight culture etc) something i suspect some intresectionalists would be happy to promote.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

i've been meaning to write something about gay pride and nationalism for ages but i'd probably be killed  (over the internet that is)


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i've been meaning to write something about gay pride and nationalism for ages but i'd probably be killed  (over the internet that is)



You want Judith Butler on Homonationalism


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

is that online?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> is that online?


It's not a single text as such, more her having a long term ongoing pop at simple gay priders and so on. And to be honest, the word is better then the critique.


----------



## rekil (Dec 11, 2013)

LP said:
			
		

> Bin set on fire in front of Senate House. At least 25 people gather to take pictures of the burning bin #copsoffcampus #spectacle


Tut tut journos. And what will your entire article on this hinge on?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

But what is THE LEFT doing about this


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 11, 2013)

belboid said:


> Gay, bi, lesbian, trans, queer, inter and asexual???
> 
> (I'm fucked if I'm gonna click on the article just to find out)


 
yes.  because all those things are basically the same and have the same interests and needs and are one big happy family.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> im bisexual. i have experienced it, its a problem. however i see biphobia as like partially a product of the sort of gay "nationalism" that has come out of the depoliticisation etc of gay pride struggles and seeing gay people as like a separate "nation" (ie gay pride flags, the concept of gay culture being completely separate from straight culture etc) something i suspect some intresectionalists would be happy to promote.



not sure. 

most of the open  biphobia I see regularly is coming from the same transphobic radfem mouthpieces as those that claim that MtF transition is a deliberate attempt by men to invade women only space.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> not sure.
> 
> most of the open  biphobia I see regularly is coming from the same transphobic radfem mouthpieces as those that claim that MtF transition is a deliberate attempt by men to invade women only space.



Really? I don't know enough of them thank god, I think it comes from all sorts of sources by far the main one being from people who are also homophobic.


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 11, 2013)

Heard some of this shit in the late eighties from radical feminists then.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> not sure.
> 
> most of the open  biphobia I see regularly is coming from the same transphobic radfem mouthpieces as those that claim that MtF transition is a deliberate attempt by men to invade women only space.



I first heard about this idea a few years ago and it still confuses me. Surely no one can seriously think that there are people who are ideological MRAs out there who undergo a sex change purely to enter feminist events and disrupt them or undermine them.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Really? I don't know enough of them thank god, I think it comes from all sorts of sources by far the main one being from people who are also homophobic.



I really wish I could unsee some of the stuff of theirs I have found. it is deeply disturbing. they also claim that their choice* to identify as feminist and lesbian gives them the right to attack anyone else who dosen't conform to a binary gender or sexuality. and that will if necessary include working with MRA groups to attack transfolk. 

* and from what I can gather, in some cases, choice is entirely the right word to use, lesbianism as a political statement rather than a genuine expression of sexuality, and they believe any woman identifying as bi does so because she is supporting patriarchy by still sleeping with the enemy


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I first heard about this idea a few years ago and it still confuses me. Surely no one can seriously think that there are people who are ideological MRAs out there who undergo a sex change purely to enter feminist events and disrupt them or undermine them.



I don't think they are claiming it on an individual basis, because I don't think they seperate the acts of individual men from the expression of the patriarchal power structure. men are enemy- all men - even those men who are fucked over by society more than some of their supporters who are in well paid jobs. 

I think the fundamental problem is they see all men as having patriarchal power over all women and cannot comprehend that someone they will always define as a man could willingly give up that power to live as a woman, so there has to be an ulterior motive to transitioning. according to some of their propeganda, transition is to try to deny the right to women only space and force lesbians to fuck them. 

I won't link to any of this, but one example I would give if you want to go look at some of this is Cathy Brennan. aka pegasusbug


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> according to some of their propeganda, transition is to try to deny the right to women only space and force lesbians to fuck them.



It's worth saying (and I know you weren't implying otherwise) that not all radical feminists are bigoted against trans people.

On another note, the "cotton ceiling" stuff seemed pretty warped to me. Firstly because it was targeted at lesbians rather than the entire population of people (mostly straight men) who are sexually interested in women. And secondly, because it contained an assumption that lesbians are (or should be) attracted to all women rather than to a subset of women. Nobody owes anyone else sexual attraction, still less do they owe anyone sex.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> not sure.
> 
> most of the open  biphobia I see regularly is coming from the same transphobic radfem mouthpieces as those that claim that MtF transition is a deliberate attempt by men to invade women only space.



I distinctly remember hearing the phrase "acquiring male privilege" used against FtM trans people on twitter last year if that's of any interest


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's worth saying (and I know you weren't implying otherwise) that not all radical feminists are bigoted against trans people.
> 
> On another note, the "cotton ceiling" stuff seemed pretty warped to me. Firstly because it was targeted at lesbians rather than the entire population of people (mostly straight men) who are sexually interested in women. And secondly, because it contained an assumption that lesbians are (or should be) attracted to all women rather than to a subset of women. Nobody owes anyone else sexual attraction, still less do they owe anyone sex.



not really. that's what it was interpreted as by a specific group. 

it is aimed at that specific group, TERFs, trans exclusionary radical feminists. the ones who promote the transwoman as male rapist meme who have also promoted that the cotton ceiling issue was about demanding a right to sex. it wasn't. 

the demand was that transwomen should be included in women's communities. that terfs should no longer police those communities against transwomen and promote the abuse of transwomen. that transwomen should be allowed to join the groups that campaign for women's equality and safety, that they would add their voices to the voices of other women to help women. nd as part of that community, relationships could then be a possibility. and if a transwoman had a relationship with a lesbian, the lesbian should not face abuse and exclusion for her choices. 

it was not ever about saying that an individual should be told who they should have sex with. that kind of thinking is more likely to be found among the TREFs, where you still find those who claim all women should choose to reject the penis, as a political statement, because penetrative sex is subjagation to patriarchy. 

what the exact definitions of everything that counts as transphobia is or ins't, IDK, but I do know that policing whether other women fuck transwomen is transphobia. and that is what this was about.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I distinctly remember hearing the phrase "acquiring male privilege" used against FtM trans people on twitter last year if that's of any interest


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:
			
		

> all women should choose to reject the penis, as a political statement,





wtf


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I first heard about this idea a few years ago and it still confuses me. Surely no one can seriously think that there are people who are ideological MRAs out there who undergo a sex change purely to enter feminist events and disrupt them or undermine them.



it wouldn't surprise me if someone, somewhere had tbh  theres nazis that spend their lives pretending to be jews in order to be cunts to everyone and raise awareness of their cause


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> not really. that's what it was interpreted as by a specific group.



That does not appear to me to be the case. From a quick google, these are all very definitely non-terf writers, supportive of the concept, using it in the way I outlined above.
http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/
http://tobitastic.tumblr.com/post/19916145506/ceiling-metaphors-are-used-for-systemic-change
http://rozk.livejournal.com/445853.html
http://www.cuntext.com/2012/dear-marcie-cotton-ceiling-questioning-desire/

That is to say that it is (a) specifically about sexual rather than political inclusion (b) specifically amongst "queer women". The last link provides possibly the pithiest summary, describing "not being considered datable or fuckable by the majority of one’s queer community" as "a specific experience of cissexism and transphobic". There is also, of course, the rather obvious sexual reference in the term itself.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> I won't link to any of this, but one example I would give if you want to go look at some of this is Cathy Brennan. aka pegasusbug



oh god  i've read some of her stuff


----------



## Balbi (Dec 11, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> oh god  i've read some of her stuff



She's got a habit of finding photos of people and then smearing them. Was over at @orgwomenslib, RTing everyone and such. Then got suspended again.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2013)

Balbi said:


> She's got a habit of finding photos of people and then smearing them. Was over at @orgwomenslib, RTing everyone and such. Then got suspended again.



didnt she get someone expelled from their school for having a go at her on the internet?


----------



## Balbi (Dec 11, 2013)

She's outed trans people to schools, workplaces, written to the U.N demanding trans people be stripped of human rights. She's a pro at doxing people and splashing their details online for all to see. Nasty.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That does not appear to me to be the case. From a quick google, these are all very definitely non-terf writers, supportive of the concept, using it in the way I outlined above.
> http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/
> http://tobitastic.tumblr.com/post/19916145506/ceiling-metaphors-are-used-for-systemic-change
> http://rozk.livejournal.com/445853.html
> ...



factcheckme is definately terf. use of terms like 'pretendbian' as a label for a gay transwoman or talking about the value of SCUM is a bit of a giveaway. some of the links off that are vile. 

don't really have the stomach for any more tonight


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 11, 2013)

Factcheckme may well be terf, but the letter that link includes is not. Even if you think theyve faked the exchange, the other three sites linked to above are definitely not terf. Neither were the other half dozen pieces I stumbled upon with a quick google (although there were many terf hits too).

I've yet to come across an article saying that the term is a reference to terfs policing who can sleep with who.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

oh, it's not terf, but oh, it is terf. make your mind up


----------



## TruXta (Dec 11, 2013)

This lingo is almost harder to follow than some of the left-occult stuff.


----------



## captainmission (Dec 11, 2013)

The cotton ceiling refers specially to exclusion from sexual activity, rather than the broader exclusion from women or lesbian spaces. some terfs have tried to spin it as trans women setting rape camps.

See this article - http://www.transadvocate.com/cotton-ceiling-uncovering-the-trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians.htm


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> oh, it's not terf, but oh, it is terf. make your mind up



No need to be snide..

Here's what the woman who coined the term has to say about it:

Drew: The cotton ceiling, in my own words, is talking about the limitations of inclusion, the limitations of peoples spheres of desire – and spheres of desire are what we all have with who we would consider fuckable and not fuckable. Those spheres are not essentialist things, though for a lot of people they can feel that way. They are shaped by cultural representations on what is considered fuckable in a general society as well as subculture and microculture representations about what’s considered part of a particular community - the queer community or the lesbian community. Who is considered part of the community and who is considered fuckable and those aren’t necessarily the same things and thats where the cotton ceiling comes in. The disjoint - and this is what I’m speaking of specifically - a disjoint to who is considered part of a community and who is considered fuckable as part of that community. I first made this public at a conference in Toronto that was put together by Planned Parenthood Toronto to speak about issues of queer trans women within the queer women’s community. That was the explicit theme of the conference and the context to which I introduced the concept. It is a way to think about an issue that a lot of queer trans women experience - the limits of inclusion in the queer women’s cis-gendered dominated community. The cotton ceiling was a way to make visible, in a playful way, with the cotton signifying sheets or underwear, the issues surrounding intimacy and thats what it’s really trying to get at. There is a limit to solidarity and a limit to trans women getting full inclusion, which would include sexual inclusion. There might be queer women who accept trans women into their space but there are still prevailing notions that shape desire in the queer women’s community that trans women do not constitute fuckable people. I think we should strive for full inclusion and it behooves all of us to reconsider those boundaries and why we draw those boundaries.  Something that gets often ignored is that just because I raised this issue within the context of trans women doesn’t mean it doesn’t have utility for all trans people - I think it can have particular relevance to a lot of communities where visibility or identity, if found out, can impede on embodied experiences.

http://bodiesofworkmag.com/post/32941486812/drewdeveaux

I presume you don't think she's a terf?

I'm in no way trying to imply that transwomen are dodgy sex predators or secret rapists or anything similar. Nor do I think it's unreasonable for trans people to discuss the barriers being trans may present to being desired in a transphobic society (captain mission's link draws a very apt comparison with disability in that regard). But as far as I can tell the "cotton ceiling" is focused on lesbian and bisexual cis women in particular and carries some dubious implications about who other people should be attracted to, and so is a bad way to frame that discussion.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 11, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> it wouldn't surprise me if someone, somewhere had tbh  theres nazis that spend their lives pretending to be jews in order to be cunts to everyone and raise awareness of their cause



I just googled Jewish Hitler and false flag and


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

is that what you are claiming is




> an assumption that lesbians are (or should be) attracted to all women rather than to a subset of women



or that they...



> owes anyone else sexual attraction, still less do they owe anyone sex.



can you show me how you worked out that this is a claim lesbians owe all women sex?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> is that what you are claiming is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



An, shifting goalposts, my favourite way to have a discussion. Before I answer that can we take it that you now accept that the term refers to lesbian and bisexual women's communities, and to sexual rather than political inclusion and is not about terfs policing who people should sleep with?


----------



## Belushi (Dec 11, 2013)

I just get this image in my head of a rich educated person at their computer finding increasingly desperate reasons why they are more oppressed than anyone else; while in the background a poor immigrant cleaner quietly gets on with hoovering their apartment.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> An, shifting goalposts, my favourite way to have a discussion. Before I answer that can we take it that you now accept that the term refers to lesbian and bisexual women's communities, and to sexual rather than political inclusion and is not about terfs policing who people should sleep with?




are you refusing to explain how that statement supports your previous assertions, or accepting that it dosen't?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> are you refusing to explain how that statement supports your previous assertions, or accepting that it dosen't?



I've already said I will answer your question. I just want confirmation that you've now abandoned your old argument first because life's too short to chase someone around as they slip between arguments.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 12, 2013)

Not getting a ride is now another form of oppression?

Surely that is the most desperate last ditch line ever.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 12, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I just get this image in my head of a rich educated person at their computer finding increasingly desperate reasons why they are more oppressed than anyone else; while in the background a poor immigrant cleaner quietly gets on with hoovering their apartment.




the paxmen of this world


----------



## revol68 (Dec 12, 2013)

"Well if you weren't so tied into white heterosexist notions of sexuality you'd want to bang the shit out me!"


----------



## toggle (Dec 12, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm in no way trying to imply that transwomen are dodgy sex predators or secret rapists or anything similar. Nor do I think it's unreasonable for trans people to discuss the barriers being trans may present to being desired in a transphobic society (captain mission's link draws a very apt comparison with disability in that regard). But as far as I can tell the "cotton ceiling" is focused on lesbian and bisexual cis women in particular and carries some dubious implications about who other people should be attracted to, and so is a bad way to frame that discussion.



from the transwoman quoted on that vile terf blog you linked to earlier



> think that everyone has the right to decide who they want to have sex with, how they want to have that sex, and when they want to have that sex, or to not have sex at all. Consent is incredibly important, and no one should ever feel pressured to have sex of any kind with anybody.
> 
> ......... I believe that many cis queer women do not see queer trans women as viable sexual partners in large part due to the cultural messages that exist, both within queer culture and mainstream/straight culture, that tell us that trans women’s bodies are inherently undesirable except as a fetish for cis straight men. I also think that it is rooted in the belief that trans women are not women, which is transphobic and transmisogynist.



I see no problem in discussing the issues of exclusion that transfolk face within the queer community. Nor do I see any particular problem in discussing that dating within those communities will be affected by this. 

What I am aware of is that the issue this concept particularly addresses, the attitudes towards gay transwomen will be affected by the discussion of who is and sin't woman. and the people who I believe are most influential in trying to deny transwomen are women within women's circles are TERFs. Their attitudes will influence people within those communities, even where they don't have enough influence to actually bar transwomen, which they do unfortunately have in a number of places. This is why I believe that discussion of exclusion of transwomen within women's circles is aimed at countering attempts by TERFs to police and otherwise influence women's communities


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 12, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Not getting a ride is now another form of oppression?
> 
> Surely that is the most desperate last ditch line ever.




I'm just waiting for the claim that having to pay for sex is a form of oppression


----------



## revol68 (Dec 12, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm just waiting for the claim that having to pay for sex is a form of oppression



well surely it follows...


----------



## J Ed (Dec 12, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm just waiting for the claim that having to pay for sex is a form of oppression



Shhh Brendan O'Neill is watching


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> This is why I believe that discussion of exclusion of transwomen within women's circles is aimed at countering attempts by TERFs to police and otherwise influence women's communities



Except that when you read what the woman who coined the term has to say about it, she doesn't describe it as a response to terfs at all. Instead it specifically refers to the disjuncture between being accepted socially or politically as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" and being considered "fuckable" within that community.

Now terfs don't accept transwomen as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" in a social, political or sexual sense, so this can hardly be any kind of an oblique reference to them. Instead it is directly a reference to lesbians and bisexual women who do accept transwomen as women but do not consider them "fuckable". I'm not being tendentious here. It's all spelled out by Deveaux in pretty straightforward terms above.

To be blunt, it looks to me like you are trying to find a better alternative meaning for the term than the one intended.


----------



## Balbi (Dec 12, 2013)

Or that the term itself has been hijacked by terfs and used in abhorrent ways.

The poisonous terfs are scum tbqh, utter scum.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 12, 2013)

All of this is making my head hurt.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 12, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Or that the term itself has been hijacked by terfs and used in abhorrent ways.
> 
> The poisonous terfs are scum tbqh, utter scum.



Well yes. But the fact that terfs, particularly of the Brennan variety, are abhorrent isn't really the issue here. Of course they've seized on the term to make all kinds of wild and vicious claims. You'd expect nothing less.

But that doesn't mean that anything they take and distort into a paranoid fantasy then has to be defended as if it was a good idea. The "cotton ceiling" framing seems to me to be a very dubious angle on a real issue.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 12, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Well yes. But the fact that terfs, particularly of the Brennan variety, are abhorrent isn't really the issue here. Of course they've seized on the term to make all kinds of wild and vicious claims. You'd expect nothing less.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that anything they take and distort into a paranoid fantasy then has to be defended as if it was a good idea. The "cotton ceiling" framing seems to me to be a very dubious angle on a real issue.



We're still talking about World of Warcraft here, right?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 12, 2013)

The Elfen Terfs of Shire Brennan and the quest for the Cotton Ceiling, etc.


----------



## rioted (Dec 12, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm just waiting for the claim that having to pay for sex is a form of oppression


Having to pay for anything is a form of oppression.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 12, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> We're still talking about World of Warcraft here, right?



I could probably find some dogy WOW fanfic if that would help at all.

*Shudders at the memory of the Severus Snape/Teletubbies fanfic. Oh, the horror...*


----------



## rekil (Dec 12, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> All of this is making my head hurt.


But imagine paying to be here 

http://www.bbcqtwatchalong.co.uk/downloads/lineup.html


----------



## toggle (Dec 13, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Except that when you read what the woman who coined the term has to say about it, she doesn't describe it as a response to terfs at all. Instead it specifically refers to the disjuncture between being accepted socially or politically as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" and being considered "fuckable" within that community.
> 
> Now terfs don't accept transwomen as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" in a social, political or sexual sense, so this can hardly be any kind of an oblique reference to them. Instead it is directly a reference to lesbians and bisexual women who do accept transwomen as women but do not consider them "fuckable". I'm not being tendentious here. It's all spelled out by Deveaux in pretty straightforward terms above.
> 
> To be blunt, it looks to me like you are trying to find a better alternative meaning for the term than the one intended.



I don't agree with you and I've already explained why.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 13, 2013)

toggle said:


> I don't agree with you and I've already explained why.



Yes, you have. But you haven't engaged at all with the DeVeaux's own explanation for the term. You are obviously under no obligation to do so, but without wanting to be a dick a out it I'm more inclined to take her assertions at face value than yours, given that she coined the term.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 13, 2013)

check your clean privilege, shower-taking oppressors http://thisiscleanprivilege.tumblr.com/


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2013)

Stavvers socks it to the normals.



> I am Lucifer, literally. The light bearer, illuminating the injustices that they do not see.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 13, 2013)

Hahaha where's that from?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2013)

It's from very old anarchist papers.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 13, 2013)

Sounds a bit like the beginning of God and the State by Bakunin

but I was asking where did stavvers write it? twitter? blog? Was it part of some other piece of writing?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2013)

fuck knows


----------



## J Ed (Dec 13, 2013)

Here http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/...-i-am-jealous-yes-i-do-want-to-drag-you-down/


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Sounds a bit like the beginning of God and the State by Bakunin
> 
> but I was asking where did stavvers write it? twitter? blog? Was it part of some other piece of writing?


It's from her current blog post.

As for LP


> Today, if British universities were a nation state, they would be a military dictatorship.


Eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2013)

Amazing, hidden stuff is because other women are too thick to get a blog and write in the guardian and new statesman(we're coming - and we're coming proper)



> I find myself wishing I could be like those other women, the ones who don’t have to see this, the ones who can sit comfortably and believe that nothing is wrong. It must be so nice, having so little to worry about. It must be lovely, not having to check oneself at all, with no knowledge of one’s own complicity in this oppressive power structure. It must be absolutely fucking brilliant, being able to feel like they can actually do things and achieve things because the magnitude of the problem is largely invisible.



Mass lol of the day:



> I want you to see what I see. I know it will hurt. But you need to see it to destroy it.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 13, 2013)

I guess there is a degree of truth to what Laurie is saying but I don't see how that makes universities all that different from most businesses or for that matter secondary schools. Well the dictatorship bit anyway, I don't know where the military comes into it.


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I guess there is a degree of truth to what Laurie is saying but I don't see how that makes universities all that different from most businesses or for that matter secondary schools. Well the dictatorship bit anyway, I don't know where the military comes into it.


She's referring to the stupid bail conditions and the copper who took a swing at a student the other day. Shitty hyperbole like that just rubbishes the seriousness of the actual issues and trivialises the reality of proper military dictatorships.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2013)

Not to mention condition here.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 13, 2013)

copliker said:


> She's referring to the stupid bail conditions and the copper who took a swing at a student the other day. Shitty hyperbole like that just rubbishes the seriousness of the actual issues and trivialises the reality of proper military dictatorships.



I just meant in terms of work places being democratic etc, I think that there are still places where school management is elected by teachers...

Obviously LP didn't really think it that far through though, it's just a silly meaningless platitude of the kind she specialises in


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 13, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I just meant in terms of work places being democratic etc, I think that there are still places where school management is elected by teachers...
> 
> Obviously LP didn't really think it that far through though, it's just a silly meaningless platitude of the kind she specialises in



To be fair though that was a tweet wasn't it? The format of twitter really lends itself to platitudes like that it's hard to avoid. And LP wrote something in the guardian about it that struck a decent tone and was largely hyperbole free iirc.

I know ULU and that Michael Chessum lad have had a really hard time off the police with his bail, and I was surprised by how casually violent the police have been in response to these demos and strikes, but after the way in which the government dealt out the most draconian sentences and bail conditions for people involved in the riots I can't say i'm shocked at all. I mean this is tame compared to that, thousands were jailed, and further thousands given fines, crippling bail terms, criminal records hat exclude from employment and certain benefits.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2013)

Can anyone explain this at all? Seems utterly incomprehensible



> This week, Obama asked world leaders to search their souls. In fact their souls have been being searched without warrants for some years.



https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/411567024813637632


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2013)

S☼I said:


> Can anyone explain this at all? Seems utterly incomprehensible
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/411567024813637632


I think it's a shit gag about the NSA.


----------



## agricola (Dec 13, 2013)

S☼I said:


> Can anyone explain this at all? Seems utterly incomprehensible
> 
> https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/411567024813637632



Was that what that bloke was signing at the Mandela memorial?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2013)

copliker said:


> I think it's a shit gag about the NSA.


 "...been being..."

urgh.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 14, 2013)

Bizarre intra-_Adbusters_/Occupy Wall Street bunfight over who gets to sell (or not sell) the Official Authorised Franklin Mint OWS Commemorative Dinner Plate or something:

http://storify.com/adbusters/stop-selling-occupy


----------



## J Ed (Dec 14, 2013)

Why are there so many nonsense articles like this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/13/beyonce-album-flawless-feminism now? A few vague mentions about feminism just seem to be a way for 'intelligent' broadsheets to sell celebrity gossip


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 14, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Why are there so many nonsense articles like this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/13/beyonce-album-flawless-feminism now? A few vague mentions about feminism just seem to be a way for 'intelligent' broadsheets to sell celebrity gossip


I blame The Toad.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing, hidden stuff is because other women are too thick to get a blog and write in the guardian and new statesman(we're coming - and we're coming proper)
> 
> 
> 
> Mass lol of the day:



I usually stay away from blogged stuff, but read that.  Yet again I find my opinion confirmed: That recognising/naming oppression is all very well, but that fighting it (by which I mean *beyond* writing about it, especially in such a way that you're giving yourself a metaphorical reach-around) is what matters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> To be fair though that was a tweet wasn't it? The format of twitter really lends itself to platitudes like that it's hard to avoid. And LP wrote something in the guardian about it that struck a decent tone and was largely hyperbole free iirc.
> 
> I know ULU and that Michael Chessum lad have had a really hard time off the police with his bail, and I was surprised by how casually violent the police have been in response to these demos and strikes, but after the way in which the government dealt out the most draconian sentences and bail conditions for people involved in the riots I can't say i'm shocked at all. I mean this is tame compared to that, thousands were jailed, and further thousands given fines, crippling bail terms, criminal records hat exclude from employment and certain benefits.


Your words ("...surprised by how casually violent the police have been...") caused me more than a few guffaws.  All these fuckers have done is taken a page from the 1970s/1980s playbook!  This is how it used to be, at protests and even football matches - you pretty much never knew whether the copper you were walking past would take a swing at you!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Bizarre intra-_Adbusters_/Occupy Wall Street bunfight over who gets to sell (or not sell) the Official Authorised Franklin Mint OWS Commemorative Dinner Plate or something:
> 
> http://storify.com/adbusters/stop-selling-occupy



IIRC this was one of Malcolm "not a sex-case" Harris's things - monetising yer activism!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 14, 2013)

I'm starting to get a little nervous - were Laura or Zoe on the debate team? 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com//new...of-denver-high-school-gunman/article15972075/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm starting to get a little nervous - were Laura or Zoe on the debate team?
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com//new...of-denver-high-school-gunman/article15972075/



We can but hope, and that the "close encounter" may have caused them to become reflexive.

Nah. Who am I kidding?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 15, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Why are there so many nonsense articles like this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/13/beyonce-album-flawless-feminism now? A few vague mentions about feminism just seem to be a way for 'intelligent' broadsheets to sell celebrity gossip



http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...-new-album-multi-faceted-thing-awe-and-wonder


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 15, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...-new-album-multi-faceted-thing-awe-and-wonder



Lester Bangs must be turning in his grave.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 15, 2013)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed3m
The new Beyonce is even better listening if you picture Lilly Allen spinning in a pit of her own racist irrelevance





			
				Mark Fisher said:
			
		

> The first law of the Vampires’ Castle is: individualise and privatise everything. While in theory it claims to be in favour of structural critique, in practice it never focuses on anything except individual behaviour.
> 
> ...
> 
> The VC, as dupe-servants of the ruling class, does the opposite: it pays lip service to ‘solidarity’ and ‘collectivity’, while always acting as if the individualist categories imposed by power really hold. Because they are petit-bourgeois to the core, the members of the Vampires’ Castle are intensely competitive, but this is repressed in the passive aggressive manner typical of the bourgeoisie. What holds them together is not solidarity, but mutual fear – the fear that they will be the next one to be outed, exposed, condemned.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 15, 2013)

A spectre is haunting Europe. The spectre of deciding which multimillionaire singer's vague nod to identity politics in their commercial output is the politically correct one.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 15, 2013)

J Ed said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed3m
> The new Beyonce is even better listening if you picture Lilly Allen spinning in a pit of her own racist irrelevance



I'm tempted to retweet that to the celeb in question.

Hope you've got deep pockets or a good brief working pro bono, Penny Dreadful...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 15, 2013)

What did Lilly Allen do?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 15, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> What did Lilly Allen do?


----------



## belboid (Dec 15, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I'm tempted to retweet that to the celeb in question.
> 
> Hope you've got deep pockets or a good brief working pro bono, Penny Dreadful...


she'd have to sue quite a few people.  the dreadful one is far from the only critic (of the Hard Out here video)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 15, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


>




Write a shit song?


----------



## belboid (Dec 15, 2013)

the only twerkers are black n asian, so its laughing at them (supposedly)


----------



## J Ed (Dec 15, 2013)

belboid said:


> the only twerkers are black n asian, so its laughing at them (supposedly)



Which is supposed to satirise Miley Cyrus' song, and it may not be the greatest way of doing it but...



> The fourth law of the Vampires’ Castle is: essentialize. While fluidity of identity, pluarity and multiplicity are always claimed on behalf of the VC members – partly to cover up their own invariably wealthy, privileged or bourgeois-assimilationist background – the enemy is always to be essentialized. Since the desires animating the VC are in large part priests’ desires to excommunicate and condemn, there has to be a strong distinction between Good and Evil, with the latter essentialized. Notice the tactics. X has made a remark/ has behaved in a particular way – these remarks/ this behaviour might be construed as transphobic/ sexist etc. So far, OK. But it’s the next move which is the kicker. X then becomes defined as a transphobe/ sexist etc.


----------



## rekil (Dec 15, 2013)

> Aguilera mouthing like a little girl


Infantilising Xtina is a little bit sexist.  I'm sure LP has complained about being called a silly schoolgirl and the like, but it's them what make the rules.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 15, 2013)

belboid said:


> the only twerkers are black n asian, so its laughing at them (supposedly)



Well there is another white woman in there too other than Lily Allen. I wonder though, if it was only white people in the video would that also be racist? Cultural appropriation blah blah blah... ? Twittersectionalists are weird.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 15, 2013)

belboid said:


> the only twerkers are black n asian





copliker said:


> Infantilising Xtina



Sound like films from one of Richard Desmond's pay-per-view channels.


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 15, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> What did Lilly Allen do?


 
I hate that I know this, but she did something else as well as the video. She was having a twitter beef with the rapper Azealia Banks, and she sent her a picture of a penis made up like a golliwog. It can be found here (NSFW obvs) http://twobrowngirls.co/post/55456642182/in-more-racism-news-lily-allen-tweeted-a-picture

...so she has form. I don't know whether L. Penny is working from the full prosecutorial file or whether she is only referring to the video, but if I were her brief I would be entering that into evidence right away.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 15, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> I hate that I know this, but she did something else as well as the video. She was having a twitter beef with the rapper Azealia Banks, and she sent her a picture of a penis made up like a golliwog. It can be found here (NSFW obvs) http://twobrowngirls.co/post/55456642182/in-more-racism-news-lily-allen-tweeted-a-picture
> 
> ...so she has form. I don't know whether L. Penny is working from the full prosecutorial file or whether she is only referring to the video, but if I were her brief I would be entering that into evidence right away.



That makes more sense. No ambiguity about a penis golliwog.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 15, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> No ambiguity about a penis golliwog.



Yeah it's usually a stand up guy...


----------



## rekil (Dec 15, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...-new-album-multi-faceted-thing-awe-and-wonder






			
				LP said:
			
		

> "Superpower", a shruggable song with a video of stylised rioting that had me running in squealing circles around my living room. This is not the writhing-against-sexy-police pseudo-radicalism of "Girls (Run The World)". There is not a single spurious circus animal in sight. Instead, there are cop cars on fire. There’s Bey masking up and charging at some armoured heavies, snogging a hooded anarcho-type in a possible nod to that viral photo of the riot-line kiss in Vancouver a couple of years ago.



http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/05/beyonce-sexy-dance-riot-video



			
				LP said:
			
		

> Revolutions are inherently romantic, and that romance can always be co-opted by the unscrupulous to turn a profit. It's easy to imagine the death-knell of any movement for change starting to ring when its agitators find their slogans appearing on tshirts and mouthed by wealthy popstars with a history of shakin' it for dictators. Not everything, however, can be appropriated..


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 15, 2013)

bey as in hakim bey?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 15, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> bey as in hakim bey?



Nah. Bey as in "short for Beyonce".

 I've seen that used before by people who would have no knowledge of Lamborn Wilson, TAZ or anarcho-noncery.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 15, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Nah. Bey as in "short for Beyonce".
> 
> I've seen that used before by people who would have no knowledge of Lamborn Wilson, TAZ or anarcho-noncery.



oh ok, but what would beyonce be doing in a riot


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 15, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> oh ok, but what would beyonce be doing in a riot



Gyrating and singing.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 15, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Gyrating and singing.



To be fair, that would be a marked improvement on the infamous Workers Power paper sale fiasco.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 15, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> To be fair, that would be a marked improvement on the infamous Workers Power paper sale fiasco.



You're just not ready for her jelly.


----------



## rekil (Dec 16, 2013)

Malc Harris on form.



> Affluenza criminal defense would be more interesting if people treated super spoiled rich kids like they're actually diseased


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 16, 2013)

like, give them warm soup, lucozade, and lemsip?


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2013)

RE: 'Bey'

so Penny clearly has never heard of the origins of the Temporary Autonomous Zone?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 16, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bey


----------



## caleb (Dec 16, 2013)

Critical of intersectional theory? You're part the nostalgic left...

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/nostalgic-left


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2013)

treelover said:


> RE: 'Bey'
> 
> so Penny clearly has never heard of the origins of the Temporary Autonomous Zone?


Thatchers dead you say?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 16, 2013)

caleb said:


> Critical of intersectional theory? You're part the nostalgic left...
> 
> http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/nostalgic-left



Andrew may be talking mince here, but I don't see how he's part of the commentariat. It is noteworthy, I suppose, that the WSM seem to be drifting towards this stuff.


----------



## caleb (Dec 16, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Andrew may be talking mince here, but I don't see how he's part of the commentariat. It is noteworthy, I suppose, that the WSM seem to be drifting towards this stuff.



Yeah of course not, wasn't implying he was, just seemed like the best place for it given the subject of the text - no doubt he wouldn't be discussing intersectionality, etc. without the popularisation of these ideas by the commentariat proper and twitter, etc.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 16, 2013)

caleb said:


> Critical of intersectional theory? You're part the nostalgic left...
> 
> http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/nostalgic-left


That critique would have a lot more weight if the intersectional post-left or whatever weren't utterly shite at anything that wasn't attacking people on twitter or bollocking on about representation in the meedja.


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 16, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> That critique would have a lot more weight if the intersectional post-left or whatever weren't utterly shite at anything that wasn't attacking people on twitter or bollocking on about representation in the meedja.


Kevin Doyle of the WSM, summerises one of the tennants of James O'Briens the-wsm-a-political-analysis


> That the emphasis towards the libertarian milieu and activism without end was also mistaken and ill-judged and contributed to a practical unwillingness in the WSM to re-analyse where it was in terms of the long term project.


----------



## rekil (Dec 16, 2013)

It's a load of strawman bollocks so it is. Maybe he's having a go at PD? 


> muscular white guys wielding tools


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2013)

The sounds like Nice one


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 16, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> Kevin Doyle of the WSM, summerises one of the tennants of James O'Briens the-wsm-a-political-analysis


christ, that's some bleak shit man.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 16, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> christ, that's some bleak shit man.



It's interesting precisely because the WSM were perhaps the most serious attempt to build an anarchist group in the English speaking world in recent years. So their failings (and successes) are more revealing than those of groups that were ramshackle and ineffectual to the core.

They seem to be in rag order these days.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 16, 2013)

Andrew Flood has always talked balls and been happy for the WSM to flit between a tight, theoretical group as imagined in the Platform (with reading lists for would be members etc) to an anti capitalist activist organisation and now it seems looking to manoeuvre itself at these intersectionalist twitter twats. WSM have pretty much been the SWP of anarchism in how they relate to movements. 

The platformist tradition was meant to be an anchor of theoretical insight amidst the maelstrom of history, so it's ironic that the modern Platform groups are so footloose about nearly everything from union elections, works councils, national liberation and now the twitter twats.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 16, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's interesting precisely because the WSM were perhaps the most serious attempt to build an anarchist group in the English speaking world in recent years. So their failings (and successes) are more revealing than those of groups that were ramshackle and ineffectual to the core.
> 
> They seem to be in rag order these days.


Rather than doing the "anarchist are petit-bourgeois individualists" schtick, you lot should just roll that article out when trying to recruit anarchists...


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 16, 2013)

revol68 said:


> WSM have pretty much been the SWP of anarchism in how they relate to movements.
> \


 How so?


----------



## revol68 (Dec 16, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> How so?



dropping previous positions in order to recruit. enthusiastically embracing every new movement quite uncritically.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 16, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> How so?



They actually try to identify where they might find possible recruits and then try to recruit them. This is considered terrible behaviour in most anarchist circles.

That's the core complaint, although revol does have a fairer point in that the WSM do seem to adapt their politics to these potential recruits to a degree.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 16, 2013)

The revolution will not be recruited. ;-)


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 16, 2013)

revol68 said:


> The revolution will not be recruited. ;-)



No, but the membership of any revolutionary organisation larger than a group of mates will be.


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 16, 2013)

revol68 said:


> dropping previous positions in order to recruit. enthusiastically embracing every new movement quite uncritically.


Think they were very critical of Occupy, Anonymous, Freeman.
Bin Charges, CATHT,S2S etc they would have being insane not to enthusiastically embrace. What other movements are you referring to?


----------



## revol68 (Dec 16, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> Think they were very critical of Occupy, Anonymous, Freeman.
> Bin Charges, CATHT,S2S etc they would have being insane not to enthusiastically embrace. What other movements are you referring to?



It's not the engaging with those issues that are the problem, it's the watering down or changing of their positions to recruit from various spheres. See their support for the SIPTU general secretary election campaign, their call for Nationalisation of the Shell refinery and their long running attempt to recruit out of the republican socialist millieu by marketing anarchism as the more radical means of "freeing Ireland".


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 16, 2013)

revol68 said:


> It's not the engaging with those issues that are the problem, it's the watering down or changing of their positions to recruit from various spheres. See their support for the SIPTU general secretary election campaign, their call for Nationalisation of the Shell refinery and their long running attempt to recruit out of the republican socialist millieu by marketing anarchism as the more radical means of "freeing Ireland".



JmcB one of their stalwarts was recruited out of the republican movement, they never really made any bones about "freeing Ireland",their position has not changed here (as far as I can see).
To be fair I dont know alot about the SIPTU stuff, but I just don't see how they could be compared to the SWP. 
I really dont understand your criticisms, but then again Im not an anarchist.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 16, 2013)

WSM adjust their positions to the situation, what bastards

Basically they're not purists who slag off and refuse to engage with the 99% of active people who don't share their politics.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 16, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> WSM adjust their positions to the situation, what bastards
> 
> Basically they're not purists who slag off and refuse to engage with the 99% of active people who don't share their politics.



Well that's the central anarchist objection, yes.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 17, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> WSM adjust their positions to the situation, what bastards
> 
> Basically they're not purists who slag off and refuse to engage with the 99% of active people who don't share their politics.



Yes but all the while they claim to be a tight cohesive Platformist group whose role it is to maintain hard learnt political positions against the inherent reformism of anarcho syndicalism etc

You can't very well denounce syndicalism as inherently reformist and as such in need of tightly organised body of anarchists to battle opportunist and reformist ideas but then actually turn round and campaign for a candidate for SIPTU's General Secretary, or for that matter endorse works councils that seek to co opt workers struggles.

My many issues with the WSM are long and boring but needless to say I'm not surprised to see Andrew Flood out there constructing strawmen arguments about nostalgic lefties in order to make the WSM look more appealling to latest the trend that's blown in.


----------



## jacobian (Dec 17, 2013)

The reason the WSM was less bad than most anarchism in the English speaking world was precisely because it neither succumbed to the latest fad nor to anarcho-purism.  Both are extent elsewhere and demonstrate just how absolutely worthless would be taking revol68's advice.  Neither should one take revol68's account seriously as it is based more on message-board-rumour than truth.

In my estimation, the real problems with the WSM had more to do with inherent limitations of anarchism.  Once economic crisis hit, a number of serious members were forced into reflection on where we were going.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 17, 2013)

Really the WSM moved from a tight membership with a reading list and everything short of a entrance exam to join to an anti capitalist free for all, which would be fair enough if they didn't pretend to still be platformist in any meaningful sense. Anarchists arguing for nationalisation of resources seems pretty faddish to me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2013)

jacobian said:


> In my estimation, the real problems with the WSM had more to do with inherent limitations of anarchism.


and these are?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

If you didn't realise that anarchism would have to be reflected on in the bad times as well as the good then maybe you weren't taking it that seriously before? Or maybe the relentless search for short-cut activism outlined in your (?) piece Jacobian meant you didn't have the opportunity to do so - which i find amazing given what seemed to me at the time to be an obsession with having a position on every single question (and possible questions!) ever. Maybe those position papers ended up being the possession of the leading members so there was little input from others i don't know, but i was under the impression that these papers were the result of that reflection that you say it took the crisis to provoke.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 17, 2013)

Helen Lewis said:
			
		

> There's this weird idea that to be an anti-poverty activist you have to live in a shoe.






			
				Helen Lewis said:
			
		

> V efficient way of maintaining status quo; anyone from a marginalised group gets a platform, she can be immediately disregarded






			
				James Ball said:
			
		

> If the left spent half the energy attacking the right as it did itself, the world would be pretty different...



_Textbook._


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

Is helen lewis calling herself an anti-poverty activist now?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 17, 2013)

think she's on about Jack Monroe and her Sainsbury advert.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

Ah right. Was going to say. I'll ask her at the PD new statesman occupation in new year just to maker sure.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 17, 2013)

now there's a lovely convo going on between hasan, lewis and mensch about not being "allowed" to call yourself "left" if you've ever been to private school, Oxbridge, or drank in Starbucks. these people are ridiculous but crucially all in it together


----------



## rekil (Dec 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Ah right. Was going to say. I'll ask her at the PD new statesman occupation in new year just to maker sure.


The offices are on the 7th floor. This represents a significant challenge. Or an interesting banner drop and siege opportunity.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is helen lewis calling herself an anti-poverty activist now?



And has the New Statesman deigned to recognise the NUJ or any other union yet?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 17, 2013)

copliker said:


> The offices are on the 7th floor. This represents a significant challenge. Or an interesting banner drop and siege opportunity.


*DROP BOMBS*
*NOT BANNERS*​


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

Open drop off/delivery/parking hatch round the back on carmelite street - that should allow access to next door roof - fire stairs etc


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2013)

Maybe you should take this to PMs, folks.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 17, 2013)

So have we had Tory wife Amelia Gentleman's wonderful guardian article on the effects of Coalition cuts mentioned on this thread yet?

this whole what is to be done schtick from someone who is, quite literally, sleeping with the enemy. soundly, on a bed paid for by the taxpayer.   FUCK OFF, FUCK OFF, FUCK OFF.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 17, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> check your clean privilege, shower-taking oppressors http://thisiscleanprivilege.tumblr.com/


 




> Clean privilege is never having your smell described as a reason why people genuinely dislike you. I came across the following line in Kurt Vonnegut’s novel Slaughterhouse-Five: “_He had been unpopular because he was stupid and fat and mean, and smelled like bacon no matter how much he washed.” _I still have a lot to read, but this describes the only villain in the novel so far. He’s a rude, violent, insecure man who fantasizes about homicide and bestiality, but the main problem is his smell.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 17, 2013)

Clean privilege is works of fiction set in medieval times showing everyone covered in exaggerated amounts of dirt. In the language of media, ‘dirt’ has been constructed as shorthand for ‘backwards’ and ‘uncivilised,’ which in a wider context reinforces notions of filthphobia in the minds of those who consume this media, contributing to systemic oppression on the whole.
Clean privilege is the royalty and nobility in medieval dramas being portrayed as much cleaner than the peasantry even though historical evidence points at them also not bathing. Problematic ideas like this tie cleanliness with class, and fuel both hygiene-based oppression and class-based oppression.


----------



## jacobian (Dec 17, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and these are?



http://spiritofcontradiction.eu/rowan-duffy/2013/08/03/why-i-am-no-longer-an-anarchist


----------



## jacobian (Dec 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> If you didn't realise that anarchism would have to be reflected on in the bad times as well as the good then maybe you weren't taking it that seriously before? Or maybe the relentless search for short-cut activism outlined in your (?) piece Jacobian meant you didn't have the opportunity to do so - which i find amazing given what seemed to me at the time to be an obsession with having a position on every single question (and possible questions!) ever. Maybe those position papers ended up being the possession of the leading members so there was little input from others i don't know, but i was under the impression that these papers were the result of that reflection that you say it took the crisis to provoke.



Well the WSM was growing in advance of the 2008 financial crisis.  The scale of calamity was a wake-up call that this growth would not amount to much unless there was a phase change in our approach.  In retrospect it's clear to me that anarchism would never be up to such a challenge, but it took me a good while after I left and a lot of casting around before I decided what might be.

The position papers were from the 1990s with a few modifications in the 2000s mostly by Andrew Flood.  There was very little connection between the political activity and the position papers, and very few members actually read them (although I myself was under some confusion about this having read them all in advance of joining).


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

jacobian said:


> Well the WSM was growing in advance of the 2008 financial crisis.  The scale of calamity was a wake-up call that this growth would not amount to much unless there was a phase change in our approach.  In retrospect it's clear to me that anarchism would never be up to such a challenge, but it took me a good while after I left and a lot of casting around before I decided what might be.
> 
> The position papers were from the 1990s with a few modifications in the 2000s mostly by Andrew Flood.  There was very little connection between the political activity and the position papers, and very few members actually read them (although I myself was under some confusion about this having read them all in advance of joining).


I think maybe more non-members read them than members  Which isn't to criticise the positions.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 17, 2013)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/how-the-media-will-report-the-apocalypse

This is the best one


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/how-the-media-will-report-the-apocalypse
> 
> This is the best one


So _that's _what LLETSA looks like. 

And this is the best one -



Spoiler


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 17, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/how-the-media-will-report-the-apocalypse



Has anyone told Laura?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> So that's what LLETSA looks like.
> 
> And this is the best one -


Yes 'you did'


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2013)

**


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2013)

jacobian said:


> http://spiritofcontradiction.eu/rowan-duffy/2013/08/03/why-i-am-no-longer-an-anarchist


tbh i find that really rather disappointing. it doesn't point to 'the limitations of anarchism', rather pointing rather more to your limitations, assuming you're the author of that unfortunate piece.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yes 'you did'


Where is your precious balsamic vinegar now, eh?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 17, 2013)

As we've been talking about the WSM, they've just put out a conference report:

1) they are in the process of officially adopting intersectionalism
2) their free paper is now dead.


They sometimes give out membership figures in these sort of articles, but not on this occasion.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 17, 2013)

Flood is a shameless prat.


----------



## jacobian (Dec 17, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i find that really rather disappointing. it doesn't point to 'the limitations of anarchism', rather pointing rather more to your limitations, assuming you're the author of that unfortunate piece.



Sure no need to deal with the critique, just call the author limited - that's how politics should be done.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 17, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Flood is a shameless prat.



In my experience he's well meaning and far from stupid, although obviously I often think that he's wrong.


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 18, 2013)

.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 18, 2013)

He'd be a trot if only he could grasp Marx.


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 18, 2013)

i have had no time for the WSM, not since the darlington branch didnt reply to a single one of those letters i sent them!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> Sure no need to deal with the critique, just call the author limited - that's how politics should be done.


you'll get what you want. as the late great paul daniels said, you'll like it but not a lot.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 18, 2013)

New Statesman run a fluff piece where writers explain where they were wrong.  Conspicuous by her absence is, of course, our old friend Laurie.

http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2013/12/power-changing-your-mind

an odd piece, but i guess a necessary one.  after all, most of us are open to changing our minds in the face of better evidence.  i certainly have, thanks to posters here in part, growing older and having more experience of things, reading more books by clever people etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2013)

Fuck me, even being wrong is a way to be right and better than others for these people.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2013)

Can i just ask who has_ the workers birch_ btw? We need it early jan, so check your sheds/under the stairs (and any sheds under the stairs)/spare rooms etc


----------



## 8ball (Dec 18, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> ...most of us are open to changing our minds in the face of better evidence.


 
Not sure about "most", but fortunately some are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> http://spiritofcontradiction.eu/rowan-duffy/2013/08/03/why-i-am-no-longer-an-anarchist


according to the internal evidence in your blog, you were about 27 when you moved to ireland and 29 when the traumatic 2007 election took place. your belief in the possibilities of change through the ballot box was strengthened by the stv system used in ireland as opposed to the american procedure. yet you seem more interested in the system, more persuaded of its possibilities, but utterly ignorant (and frankly seemingly unwilling to learn about) the history of the political parties in ireland. some basic understanding of the origins of ff, fg, labour etc might have tempered your enthusiasm for the ballot box. you say stv made ireland more democratic. but any intelligent critique of democracy would not take the method of counting as its starting point, but the location of power, the tendencies which built and reinforced the existing system, the utter lack of democracy outside a narrow 'political' space. where is the point of electing a politician if a) s/he can be bought by the boss class, or b) they already identify with the boss class and therefore don't need to be bought? and almost all politicians in ireland as in the uk can be bought or nudged into line. 

once you began to identify with the wsm - and frankly your 'conversion narrative' is far from convincing - i would have expected a phase of political education, reading about the history of anarchism in general or irish anarchism in particular. jack white's book for example... but you seem to have been as politically shallow after as you note you were before. no anarchist worth their salt, no anarchist who'd looked into anarchist history and encountered kronstadt or spain, would describe leninist or trotskyist organisations as their 'sister organisations'. this can't be taken as a pop at you as a politically naive 29 or 30 year old as you wrote the blog at the age of c.35. in all honesty the account you give of your path to anarchism leaves a great deal to be desired as you skimp on important details like what your father was doing in central asia in 1992, what you did between age 16 and age 27, and - importantly - what attracted you to anarchism, beyond some inchoate nonsense about working outside the electoral system when you seem really rather enamoured of some electoral systems. i'll return to this when i've finished work.


----------



## rekil (Dec 18, 2013)

Anthony "Legend!" Seldon's piece on WW1 public schoolboys is a hoot.  

http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/12/real-eton-rifles


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2013)

The ledge speaks - i wonder how he got a piece in the new statesman? 

The workers birch is on its way.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2013)

Note the ledge doesn't give actual numbers - just proportions of those who died. So 5000 dead private school boys = or is better than a million dead w/c men.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

copliker said:


> Anthony "Legend!" Seldon's piece on WW1 public schoolboys is a hoot.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/12/real-eton-rifles



I read that on Saturday, but couldn't bring myself to post about it because the semi-deification of a minority of soldiers because of their places of education and the _milieu_ they existed within frankly revolted me. They led men like my great-grandad (who ended up in the BEF because mobilisation started 4 months before the end of his reserve service, and saw him recalled to active duty) to their deaths.

Seldon should top himself for writing such a nauseating apologia.


----------



## jacobian (Dec 18, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> once you began to identify with the wsm - and frankly your 'conversion narrative' is far from convincing.



On what evidence do you base this claim?  I've read widely on the history of anarchism and anarchist theory.  I've read Black Flame, Anarchy's Cossack, The Slow Burning Fuse, many books on the Spanish Civil War, the Especifismo tradition, virtually everything by Kropotkin, works by Proudhon, Luigi Fabbri (who I still think is cool), Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Berkman, Rudolph Rocker,  Malatesta, de Paepe, Cafiero, Bakunin, Abraham Guillen and many others. 

It's not the case that I don't find the strategic vision credible because I don't know what it is.  I think the continual attempt to raise tactical questions up to the level of principle is a very primitive attempt at theory and is ultimately unconvincing, yet it is a virtually constant feature of anarchism.  Again, you've resorted to attacking me personally and my supposed ignorance rather than dealing with the problems I discuss.

In my opinion:

a) anarchists are wrong about decentralisation
b) they are wrong about the idea that horizontalism can be absolutely universally applied
c) they are wrong that structural questions of democracy can take the place of politics
d) the syndicalists, dual-organisationalisalists, anti-organisationalists and unitary-political-economic (SolFed, AAUD/E) are all fundamentally wrong in dispensing with the mass *political* party approach.
e) they are wrong to blanket condemn the use of elections
f) they are wrong in the obsession with direct action while virtually ignoring the importance of soft power

Now sometimes anarchists are right about these things, but in so far as you are arguing with anarchists it's a constant battle to just have a reasonable position on them, whereas with most socialists it's not such a hard slog making the orthodoxy of anarchism inherently stultifying.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Note the ledge doesn't give actual numbers - just proportions of those who died. So 5000 dead private school boys = or is better than a million dead w/c men.



But of course.  They were better people by dint of their class and education!  They *must* have been better people, because it's hardly possible, for example, that any of them were there to escape the consequences of actions at home.  I'm sure the 17-year old upper class wanker who raped my paternal great-grandmother when she worked as a maid at a public school, and who joined the arny soon after, was an isolated case, and the rest were as noble as lions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> On what evidence do you base this claim?  I've read widely on the history of anarchism and anarchist theory.  I've read Black Flame, Anarchy's Cossack, The Slow Burning Fuse, many books on the Spanish Civil War, the Especifismo tradition, virtually everything by Kropotkin, works by Proudhon, Luigi Fabbri (who I still think is cool), Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Berkman, Rudolph Rocker,  Malatesta, de Paepe, Cafiero, Bakunin, Abraham Guillen and many others.



You've read some books! Good for you!!!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm surprised Seldon managed to write that article mashing the keyboard with his great donkey hoofs


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> ViolentPanda



If you mean my great-gran's story, yeah.  It's pretty grim, although not all bad, as my nan was the result.  Fortunately for his family and my great-grandmother, the rapist died at Etaples during the Great War.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'm surprised Seldon managed to write that article mashing the keyboard with his great donkey hoofs



Perhaps he dictated it to an amanuensis - perhaps Ms. Penny?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 18, 2013)

what a shame


----------



## jacobian (Dec 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You've read some books! Good for you!!!



It's simply in response to the claim that my conversion story was dubious and that I should have gotten to know about anarchism.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> On what evidence do you base this claim?  I've read widely on the history of anarchism and anarchist theory.  I've read Black Flame, Anarchy's Cossack, The Slow Burning Fuse, many books on the Spanish Civil War, the Especifismo tradition, virtually everything by Kropotkin, works by Proudhon, Luigi Fabbri (who I still think is cool), Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Berkman, Rudolph Rocker,  Malatesta, de Paepe, Cafiero, Bakunin, Abraham Guillen and many others.
> 
> It's not the case that I don't find the strategic vision credible because I don't know what it is.  I think the continual attempt to raise tactical questions up to the level of principle is a very primitive attempt at theory and is ultimately unconvincing, yet it is a virtually constant feature of anarchism.  Again, you've resorted to attacking me personally and my supposed ignorance rather than dealing with the problems I discuss.
> 
> ...



Interesting post.

Looks like a potential thread starter?


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps he dictated it to an amanuensis - perhaps Ms. Penny?



Will she be claiming to have served on the Somme as well?

Actually, France and Belgium aren't trendy enough. It'll probably be her memories of the Gallipoli campaign and complaining that a unscheduled mortar barrage wrecked the wifi-enabled Starbucks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> It's simply in response to the claim that my conversion story was dubious and that I should have gotten to know about anarchism.



Well, that was kind of the point of my mild sarcasm - that we can read until our eyes bleed, and assimilate recorded knowledge until our brains fart, but "getting to know" usually also includes "doing anarchism" too, beyond "sitting around with beardies and blackhatters, chatting politics".  I've met many _soi-disant_ anarchists over the decades (although fortunately not Laurie Penny, he added) who weren't really up-to-speed on the "doing" front, and while I acknowledge that there aren't *quite* as many venues for action as we had in the '70s and '80s, I hate to think of anyone missing out on actual anarchist practice!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 18, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Will she be claiming to have served on the Somme as well?
> 
> Actually, France and Belgium aren't trendy enough. It'll probably be her memories of the Gallipoli campaign and complaining that a unscheduled mortar barrage wrecked the wifi-enabled Starbucks.



If she claimed to have served in France, she'd probably traduce Edith Cavell by claiming that Edith took credit (and a bullet) for Laurie's work.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 18, 2013)

copliker said:


> Anthony "Legend!" Seldon's piece on WW1 public schoolboys is a hoot.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/12/real-eton-rifles


 
ok, i'm reading this article and he writes "A public school education provided young officers with many of the qualities required to survive the horror of the trenches"  but also that "They died at nearly twice the rate of other British soldiers who fought in the First World War"

i would suggest that, if we take the case of the second statement to be true, then the first almost certainly isn't.  

i would also suggest that this piece is based more on a desire to try to get people to be sympathetic towards the poor maligned ruling classes and to sell a book than on any attempt to right a so-called historical wrong. 

and the new statesman publishes this as if it wasn't a thinly veiled attack on the working classes via the medium of belittling the historical achievements thereof.

i mean, seriously _fuck_ the new statesman for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> On what evidence do you base this claim?  I've read widely on the history of anarchism and anarchist theory.  I've read Black Flame, Anarchy's Cossack, The Slow Burning Fuse, many books on the Spanish Civil War, the Especifismo tradition, virtually everything by Kropotkin, works by Proudhon, Luigi Fabbri (who I still think is cool), Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Berkman, Rudolph Rocker,  Malatesta, de Paepe, Cafiero, Bakunin, Abraham Guillen and many others.
> 
> It's not the case that I don't find the strategic vision credible because I don't know what it is.  I think the continual attempt to raise tactical questions up to the level of principle is a very primitive attempt at theory and is ultimately unconvincing, yet it is a virtually constant feature of anarchism.  Again, you've resorted to attacking me personally and my supposed ignorance rather than dealing with the problems I discuss.
> 
> ...


you may recall that when i asked you what the limitations of anarchism are you directed me to a blog post. i am responding to that blog post, and as it contains a lot of stuff about your claimed political trajectory i have referred to such. i was expecting a list such as you've provided here. but - as magnus magnusson said - i've started so i'll finish. i don't consider your conversion narrative convincing as a) you don't really say what you were converted from; b) pretty much everyone i've met who became an anarchist became an anarchist in their teens or early 20s. octave mirbeau shows there are exceptions to this rule, but nonetheless it is, to say the least, rare ime for someone to become an anarchist as you outline your experience; c) it has been an emotional rather than a deliberate conversion for people in my experience. as for your reading, you had not referred to it throughout the portion of your blog i have thus far responded to. all i can say is your blog showed imo scant signs of an awareness of anarchist theory so far. back to the blog.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian 

you say that bookchin is arguably a marxist; you say guerin is arguably a marxist. yet they both considered themselves anarchists. on what basis do you consider you know their politics better than they knew them themselves? for someone so very unsure of his own political beliefs you seem very ready to attribute labels to dead people who'd have rejected them when they were alive. you don't say who you've read on revolution, for example you don't refer to pataud and pouget's 'how we shall bring about the revolution'. you were ready enough above to share your reading. why not do so again? and what's wrong with eclecticism - you say it as though it is a bad thing. there's many socialists let alone anarchists who could learn a thing or two from charles tilly's 'from mobilization to revolution' or goldstone's 'revolutions: theoretical, comparative, and historical studies'.

as for anarchist anti-statism you seem to think that all anarchists should be all the time anti-state. yet this is counter-productive. should anarchists in the here-and-now object to or support cutbacks to social services on the basis of opposition to the state, however defined? or should anarchists rather defend the gains made by working people? you seem to think the former. in addition, the provision of things like roads, postal services, street lighting do not require a state - workers or otherwise - to provide them: but they do require some cooperation and coordination. these are not beyond the wit of the working class. likewise, questions of public policy could be made, as they are now, on the basis of negotiation. only in an anarchist society there would be no corporate interests influencing decisions. you seem to me to want to over-intellectualise a lot of things, whereas - in the words of clay morrow - path of least resistance is always best, right? there is no need for big complex decision-making processes or bodies where a simpler way would work.

i'm left rather confused not as to why you're not an anarchist any more but why you ever considered you were one. it seems to me more a label you wanted to attach to yourself than any genuinely held belief.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2013)

jacobian said:


> On what evidence do you base this claim?  I've read widely on the history of anarchism and anarchist theory.  I've read Black Flame, Anarchy's Cossack, The Slow Burning Fuse, many books on the Spanish Civil War, the Especifismo tradition, virtually everything by Kropotkin, works by Proudhon, Luigi Fabbri (who I still think is cool), Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Berkman, Rudolph Rocker,  Malatesta, de Paepe, Cafiero, Bakunin, Abraham Guillen and many others.
> 
> It's not the case that I don't find the strategic vision credible because I don't know what it is.  I think the continual attempt to raise tactical questions up to the level of principle is a very primitive attempt at theory and is ultimately unconvincing, yet it is a virtually constant feature of anarchism.  Again, you've resorted to attacking me personally and my supposed ignorance rather than dealing with the problems I discuss.
> 
> ...


you are right that in some of the issues (a-f) you identify there should be more flexibility. but anarchists shouldn't be involved in d) as a mass political party entails a mass political bureaucracy and entails a great imbalance of power. and you are i think confused in your f), on the basis that no one i knows fetishises direct action - direct action is a tactic, not a strategy. soft power - the power of persuasion - is of course commonly used by anarchist groups as they have no real hard power. anarchists are right about a) however, as if you are going to minimise institutional power then you can't have monolithic structures. maybe horizontalism cannot be absolutely universally applied. but that's no reason for abandoning making every effort to avoid the creation of power structures. i would be interested if you could expand on what you mean by 'politics' in c.


----------



## rekil (Dec 20, 2013)

"I think no platform must be reserved for people engaging in actual fascist campaigns". Technically Stephen Lennon and the EDL aren't fascists tbf.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 22, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/22/this-isnt-feminism-its-islamophobia?CMP=twt_gu one of LPs most dishonest articles yet. Equating opposition to Islamist sex segregation which I can assure her, with pictorial evidence, exists to being a member of the BNP. Yasmin Alibahi-Brown's opposition is motivated primarily by a pure and primal race hatred.

Also, yeah men drinking together is exactly the same as women being forced to sit separate from and behind men and being prevented from speaking. 

Men who think that women shouldn't be seen or heard or even be at university will be thrilled with this know nothing apologism. Penny you are a twit.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

Off off off with the fairies, just crazy bizzareness:



> For decades, western men have hijacked the language of women's liberation to justify their Islamophobia. If we care about the future of feminism, we cannot let them set the agenda.



Hands up - who here thinks they have  a single thing in common with someone who could write this. Who could?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 22, 2013)

Yasmin Alibahi-Brown, Maryam Namazie, Polly Toynbee, Chuka Ummuna - will someone please save us all, and our misogynist segregating friends, from these hooded white supremacist men?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

What's maryam done?


----------



## toggle (Dec 22, 2013)

where in the fuck do i fucking start on that shit?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 22, 2013)

Well she refuses to be segregated so I think she may have joined the BNP


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

This is an english lit grad



> I have spent weary weeks



This is a lie:



> But demanding that feminists of every race and faith drop all our campaigns and stand against "radical Islam" sounds more and more like white patriarchy trying to make excuses for itself: "If you think we're bad, just look at these guys."



This the next line:



> It's the dishonesty that angers me most.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 22, 2013)

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/we-will-continue-our-fight-against-gender-apartheid-at-universities/

Pragna Patel has also joined the BNP  why can't all these Muslim women understand that they need to shut up like Laurie suggests?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 22, 2013)

She is being torn apart by Muslim women on twitter and admitted that the article was totally based on another article and that she had done no research of her own and is now asking Muslim women criticising her to look over an amended text... 

Incredible. People pay her to write. People pay her to write. As a regular. She is an adult and she is being paid to come out with this shit.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> She is being torn apart by Muslim women on twitter and admitted that the article was totally based on another article and that she had done no research of her own and is now asking Muslim women criticising her to look over an amended text...
> 
> Incredible. People pay her to write. People pay her to write. As a regular. She is an adult and she is being paid to come out with this shit.



So shit. Perhaps she'll do a piece on the muslim M&S till operatives next.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> She is being torn apart by Muslim women on twitter and admitted that the article was totally based on another article and that she had done no research of her own and is now asking Muslim women criticising her to look over an amended text...
> 
> Incredible. People pay her to write. People pay her to write. As a regular. She is an adult and she is being paid to come out with this shit.



Paid by the turd.

Her sort could probably sell shit by the bucketload. Oh wait, they already do.


----------



## toggle (Dec 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> She is being torn apart by Muslim women on twitter and admitted that the article was totally based on another article and that she had done no research of her own and is now asking Muslim women criticising her to look over an amended text...
> 
> Incredible. People pay her to write. People pay her to write. As a regular. She is an adult and she is being paid to come out with this shit.



that's a standard thing with her. she writes crap without thinking, then gets someone who has a clue to edit it into something vaugely making sense for her. 

there's some interesting stuff in the attacks on the expectations islamic cultures can have of women, and the attraction attacking that has for the far right. but despite her protestations, she is using this issue to gain attention to her. If she was more interested in the debates than self promotion, then this would have been a good place for her to give coverage to the views of muslim feminists. rather than writing shit and then backing off when they told her she was a fucking arse. 

but fuck that, no attention for anyone but her.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm going to start writing about Sinhalese linguistics, I don't know anything about it but I'm gonna do it and call myself a specialist. I'm going to call people who specialise in the subject racist and I will do 10 minutes research and then let everyone know what I reckon. Then when the specialists in the subject who I have called racist criticise me I will ask them to help me amend the article, which I will be paid for and they won't.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

That was a pretty racist article. And i'm not messing.


----------



## caleb (Dec 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Yasmin Alibahi-Brown, Maryam Namazie, Polly Toynbee, Chuka Ummuna - will someone please save us all, and our misogynist segregating friends, from these hooded white supremacist men?



Without wishing to racialise it further, by the standards of "intersectionalists" (or whatever), the willingness of a white woman to ignore the voices of women of colour because _they aren't saying the right thing_ says it all.Of course, the intersectionalist / privilege lot on twitter were rightly full of support for Southall Black Sisters recently - good - but I wonder what they'd make of their line on Islamism.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> Without wishing to racialise it further, by the standards of "intersectionalists" (or whatever), the willingness of a white woman to ignore the voices of women of colour because _they aren't saying the right thing_ says it all.Of course, the intersectionalist / privilege lot on twitter were rightly full of support for Southall Black Sisters recently - good - but I wonder what they'd make of their line on Islamism.


In think we both know what they should logically say. I think we both know what they would in practice say. They are a result of the post 911 islamifocation of all left-wing politics. And today, the boosters of it. Not muslims. It's a polarising racialsing non-racist racist agenda and dynamic. They're like choudrey, Muslims must get sick of telling them to shut up or saying they don't speak for them.

The guilt is just dripping off them.


----------



## agricola (Dec 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Yasmin Alibahi-Brown, Maryam Namazie, Polly Toynbee, Chuka Ummuna - will someone please save us all, and our misogynist segregating friends, from these hooded white supremacist men?



Did anyone else read the start of this sentence and expect the end to be _"... your boys took a hell of a beating"_?


----------



## rekil (Dec 22, 2013)

PaulStott ‏@MrPaulStott said:
			
		

> No doubt to save @PennyRed from further punishment, @guardian has closed comments on her gender segregation apologia:


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

I think PD needs a segregation watch dept.


----------



## rekil (Dec 22, 2013)

If the new statesman recognised the NUJ and allowed its smartest writers to negotiate better rates, LP wouldn't be pressurised into churning out any-old-shit-will-do rubbish like this that unfairly forces her to expose her own prejudices and class privilege.

This is why we (I mean the PD hammer squads) are _going in. _


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## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

I think the latest (and in all honesty it's _the worst_ thing i've read from her) has only further cemented the commitment. Breaking downs the walls. Not of heartache/heartbreak but actual class segregation.


----------



## rekil (Dec 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think the latest (and in all honesty it's _the worst_ thing i've read from her) has only further cemented the commitment. Breaking downs the walls. Not of heartache/heartbreak but actual class segregation.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 22, 2013)

The commentariat: Seldom news that's fit to print, mostly shit that isn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2013)

I think the culture dept needs a re-cap


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you may recall that when i asked you what the limitations of anarchism are you directed me to a blog post. i am responding to that blog post, and as it contains a lot of stuff about your claimed political trajectory i have referred to such. i was expecting a list such as you've provided here. but - as magnus magnusson said - i've started so i'll finish. i don't consider your conversion narrative convincing as a) you don't really say what you were converted from; b) pretty much everyone i've met who became an anarchist became an anarchist in their teens or early 20s. octave mirbeau shows there are exceptions to this rule, but nonetheless it is, to say the least, rare ime for someone to become an anarchist as you outline your experience; c) it has been an emotional rather than a deliberate conversion for people in my experience. as for your reading, you had not referred to it throughout the portion of your blog i have thus far responded to. all i can say is your blog showed imo scant signs of an awareness of anarchist theory so far. back to the blog.


I became an anarchist in my late 30s, after two decades as a Leninist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> I became an anarchist in my late 30s, after two decades as a Leninist.


yes. but your conversion was part of a coherent political trajectory in which personal experience and the encountering of new ideas combined to bring you to anarchism, not some vague notion of operating outside the electoral system


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

Salma Yaqoob thinks laurie's piece on why everyone else is a racist was 'spot on'.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 23, 2013)

It's interesting that all the people who like the piece can't or don't articulate why they like it


----------



## rekil (Dec 23, 2013)

LP has had many tweets of support actually. "actually, many Muslim women have contacted me to say they agree completely and thank you."

Meanwhile, she has failed to offer some #solidarity to the Rote Flora rioters.


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## J Ed (Dec 23, 2013)

Whether something is true or not depends on how many people agree with it on twitter


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## revol68 (Dec 23, 2013)

copliker said:


> LP has had many tweets of support actually. "actually, many Muslim women have contacted me to say they agree completely and thank you."
> 
> Meanwhile, she has failed to offer some #solidarity to the Rote Flora rioters.



many PMs of support, clearly she lurks here.


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

I've re-read that tiny piece from last night. It's even worse sober. i think that may well be as low as she can reach - everything is there - the crap writing, the fingr in the chest, the racist shouts, the attempts to ingratiate with 'non-white' people, the utter liberal logic, the failure to challenge whilst _challenging_, the falling back on victim logic, the lack of info/knowledge and the bewigged voice of those born to rule and born to judge.

And the corrections.


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

> For decades, western men have hijacked the language of women's liberation to justify their Islamophobia. If we care about the future of feminism, we cannot let them set the agenda.





> For decades, western women have hijacked the language of equality to justify their class privilege. If we care about the future of equality, we cannot let them set the agenda.



That works just as well. I wonder what other term we can fit in without doing violence to te logic of the claim?


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

_Western men_ - seriously?  

Western men. Wow. Beyond wow. Beyond wow wow.


----------



## caleb (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm not able to express myself perfectly here because it's an area I'm not totally familiar with, but:

How much of this has to do with a post-modern rejection of universality? Muslim women, black women, white women; Muslim men, black men, white men; western men and western women, etc. - there is nothing that ties these different groups together, there cannot be solidarity, each is alien to the other and in competition. "White, western feminism" is secular. "Non-white, non-western feminism" is assumed to be religious - and making a critique of the role of religion in ideologically justifying the oppression of women is oppressive behaviour because it means assuming that religious women are victims who have been brainwashed into believing, instead of active subjects who have made a choice to do so.


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

caleb said:


> I'm not able to express myself perfectly here because it's an area I'm not totally familiar with, but:
> 
> How much of this has to do with a post-modern rejection of universality? Muslim women, black women, white women; Muslim men, black men, white men; western men and western women, etc. - there is nothing that ties these different groups together, there cannot be solidarity, each is alien to the other and in competition. "White, western feminism" is secular. "Non-white, non-western feminism" is assumed to be religious - and making a critique of the role of religion in ideologically justifying the oppression of women is oppressive behaviour because it means assuming that religious women are victims who have been brainwashed into believing, instead of active subjects who have made a choice to do so.


The key part is the second bit there - it's a rejection on universalism on the basis of local essentialisms. A local segregated universalism. With people like laurie floating above and playing the role of the state - the voice/body that unites all the various segregated civil interests in their person.

I'm going to do some anti-intersectionalist theory: i'm a white working class male from immigrant parents brought up on a council estate and didn't go to university - as a result i share many experiences with others without us being identical. My experiences are directly communicable - and are beyond the individual level. I think that's a good start point and would encourage others to recognise this.


----------



## chilango (Dec 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> i'm a white working class male from immigrant parents brought up on a council estate and didn't go to university - as a result i share many experiences with others without being identical. My experiences are directly communicable - and are beyond the individual level. I think that's a good start point and would encourage others to recognise this.



Oh no you're not.

You're western men.

Same as Hitler, jimmy saville and David beckham.


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

That's why this stuff is so pro-staus quo. They think different means non-communicable. _Except through them._


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

chilango said:


> Oh no you're not.
> 
> You're western men.
> 
> Same as Hitler, jimmy saville and David beckham.


But, on the good side, Ross Mccormack


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## rekil (Dec 23, 2013)

The New Statesman editor's top 25 articles of the year. Only two are by women (neither of whom are LP(!)), and there are no 'POCs', unless Simon Kuper who was born in Uganda counts. 

http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2013/12/editors-picks-jason-cowley-best-reading-2013


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## butchersapron (Dec 23, 2013)

copliker said:


> The New Statesman editor's top 25 articles of the year. Only two are by women (neither of whom are LP(!)), and there are no 'POCs', unless Simon Kuper who was born in Uganda counts.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2013/12/editors-picks-jason-cowley-best-reading-2013


I enjoyed Kupers book with rijkard gobbing on Voeler on the front. I've only recently realised it's intersectional ramifications though.


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## rekil (Dec 23, 2013)

HIs Ajax one looks interesting actually.


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but your conversion was part of a coherent political trajectory in which personal experience and the encountering of new ideas combined to bring you to anarchism, not some vague notion of operating outside the electoral system


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's why this stuff is so pro-staus quo. They think different means non-communicable. _Except through them._



The modern equivalent of the priestly caste, fulfilling the mediating role between power and person.
I wonder how well they'll burn?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 23, 2013)

copliker said:


> The New Statesman editor's top 25 articles of the year. Only two are by women (neither of whom are LP(!)), and there are no 'POCs', unless Simon Kuper who was born in Uganda counts.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2013/12/editors-picks-jason-cowley-best-reading-2013



I notice he listed 3 of John Bew's articles. Bew must be an expensive new hire, and Cowley is after puffing him like fuck, because only the Attlee article was any good, the other two sucked shit through a straw.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 23, 2013)

copliker said:


> HIs Ajax one looks interesting actually.



Personally, I prefer Vim to Ajax.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2013)

copliker said:


> The New Statesman editor's top 25 articles of the year. Only two are by women (neither of whom are LP(!)), and there are no 'POCs', unless Simon Kuper who was born in Uganda counts.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2013/12/editors-picks-jason-cowley-best-reading-2013


Bet she won't comment on either of those statements - lack of articles by women, and lack of articles by POC authors. Intersectionality ftw.


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## J Ed (Dec 23, 2013)

New Statesman journos are honourary PoCs and WoCs like Jez from Peep Show


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## Bakunin (Dec 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> New Statesman journos are honourary PoCs and WoCs like Jez from Peep Show



The New Statesman's latest columnist, yesterday:


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## equationgirl (Dec 25, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> The New Statesman's latest columnist, yesterday:



Is it because I is black?


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## xslavearcx (Dec 26, 2013)

copliker said:


> LP has had many tweets of support actually. "actually, many Muslim women have contacted me to say they agree completely and thank you."



Whats a bit ironic in that article is that in its accusations of islamaphobia is that she seems to posit a rather essentialist notion on stances towards segregation within islamic discourse - which rests upon a notion of islam as a 'monolithic block' - the very kind of 'closed' conception of islam that constitutes islamaphobia according to the main definition of what islamphobia is as advanced by the  runnymedie report on islamaphobia. Also her article seems close to positing islam as separate and 'other' in her attempt to divide it off from western feminism and western men etc which seems to infer that it  "does not have values in common with other cultures, that is not affected by them and does not influence them" (runnymede report on islamaphobia) - the second dimension of a closed view of islam according to said report. So she is, in effect, using 'islamaphobic' arguments to challenge islamaphobia!


----------



## toggle (Dec 26, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> Whats a bit ironic in that article is that in its accusations of islamaphobia is that she seems to posit a rather essentialist notion on stances towards segregation within islamic discourse - which rests upon a notion of islam as a 'monolithic block' - the very kind of 'closed' conception of islam that constitutes islamaphobia according to the main definition of what islamphobia is as advanced by the  runnymedie report on islamaphobia. Also her article seems close to positing islam as separate and 'other' in her attempt to divide it off from western feminism and western men etc which seems to infer that it  "does not have values in common with other cultures, that is not affected by them and does not influence them" (runnymede report on islamaphobia) - the second dimension of a closed view of islam according to said report. So she is, in effect, using 'islamaphobic' arguments to challenge islamaphobia!



there's a definate assumption underlying this, that western feminism is all fully secular and not at all influenced by christianity while feminism in islamic countries/cultures is all working within parameters that does not challenge doctrines and should alsays be presented as such, and the women in islamic cultures that do challenge too much are to be ignored, because our secularism is great, theirs is disrespectful of their culture and too influenced by the west. 

the only thing that is there that makes sence ins't actually spelled out - that an outsider telling women what to do to become unoppressed isn't relieving oppression, it is replacing one set of externally imposed rules with another.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 26, 2013)

toggle said:


> there's a definate assumption underlying this, that western feminism is all fully secular and not at all influenced by christianity while feminism in islamic countries/cultures is all working within parameters that does not challenge doctrines and should alsays be presented as such, and the women in islamic cultures that do challenge too much are to be ignored, because our secularism is great, theirs is disrespectful of their culture and too influenced by the west.
> 
> the only thing that is there that makes sence ins't actually spelled out - that an outsider telling women what to do to become unoppressed isn't relieving oppression, it is replacing one set of externally imposed rules with another.



Absolutly, not to mention how influences that some methods that arise out of 'western' academies get utilised by muslim feminists. For example, Asma Barlas in her book _believing women in islam: unreading patriarchal interpretations of the qur'an _she uses hermenteutic methodologies derived from that discourse and 'western feminists'.


----------



## FNG (Dec 26, 2013)

Beyond that there's also the matter of how General Ul Huq used the deliberate policy of the veil and the wall to consolidate power,strengthen his allies on the conservative religious right and at a stroke silence the voice of a considerable proportion of the secular progressive opposition and critically undermine the rest


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## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

J Ed said:


> It's interesting that all the people who like the piece can't or don't articulate why they like it


 
I liked it because it's true.

Western men _do _disguise their Islamophobia behind a flimsy facade of feminism.

It's been going on for ages.  I well recall how we supposedly invaded Afghanistan because we were so worried that girls weren't going to school or something.  Oldest trick in their book. Works too.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> I liked it because it's true.
> 
> Western men _do _disguise their Islamophobia behind a flimsy facade of feminism.
> 
> It's been going on for ages.  I well recall how we supposedly invaded Afghanistan because we were so worried that girls weren't going to school or something.  Oldest trick in their book. Works too.



I think paternalistic reasons are often sought as pretexts for doing other things, but i don't think when it comes to issues like that that these motivations are always the case; whereas in that article LP seems to be making the inference that this is what underlies it at all times...


----------



## Greebo (Dec 27, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> I think paternalistic reasons are often sought as pretexts for doing other things, but i don't think when it comes to issues like that that these motivations are always the case; whereas in that article LP seems to be making the inference that this is what underlies it at all times...


AFAIK Western interests are more likely to follow oil and gas.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> I think paternalistic reasons are often sought as pretexts for doing other things, but i don't think when it comes to issues like that that these motivations are always the case; whereas in that article LP seems to be making the inference that this is what underlies it at all times...


 
Very few Westerrn men know enough about Islam to comment on its view of women with anything approaching authority.

Those that do possess the requisite knowledge invariably speak of the great respect which, in their opinion, Islam accords to women.

Naturally this does not prevent the ignorant from spouting their calumnies.  But we can take comfort from the knowledge that their motives spring from bigotry, prejudice and--most of all--political calculation.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> AFAIK Western interests are more likely to follow oil and gas.


 
Well _du-uh._

[Good to see ya Greebster]


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> AFAIK Western interests are more likely to follow oil and gas.



absolutly, but i think politicians often like to sugercoat such ambitions with humanitarian pretexts to justify such actions.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> absolutly, but i think politicians often like to sugercoat such ambitions with humanitarian pretexts to justify such actions.


 
Oh aye.

And feminism is the perfect wedge strategy.  Divides the opposition, fools useful idiots into temporary acquiesence in mass murder etc.

Same thing with Assange actually.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 27, 2013)

Our local hammer of the Muslims MoP Hollobone doesn't even pretend he's opposing the viel for feminism. He says its cos he wants to be able to see someones face when he talks to them. Or sometimes he says that, when he isn't scare mongering over being swamped by millions of turks/bulgarians/romanians and putting forth mental private members bills to parliament.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Very few Westerrn men know enough about Islam to comment on its view of women with anything approaching authority.
> 
> Those that do possess the requisite knowledge invariably speak of the great respect which, in their opinion, Islam accords to women.
> 
> Naturally this does not prevent the ignorant from spouting their calumnies.  But we can take comfort from the knowledge that their motives spring from bigotry, prejudice and--most of all--political calculation.



Obviously that is often the case, and it certainly shows in LPs article, and reasons for changing the article that there was a lack of knowledge concerning what she speaked her brains on..

And speaking as a western man that was a convert to islam for half my adult life, i am pretty aware of the respect that a lot of manifestations of islam accords to women. But i'm also pretty aware of the fact that islam - a set of ideas re/formed by people - can reflect the interests of those who wish to accord power to one group of people over another, and how others - such as muslim feminists and other forms of liberation theology (see farid essak for instance)- can construct notions of islam that reflects struggles against forms of oppression/exploitation that they are under in a particular situation...

The problem with LPs article is that it seems to assume a fixed notion of islam as this eternal non-changing thing, that has one singular standpoint on segregation - somethign that is, in fact, affirmed and contested by different groups, thinkers and so on within muslim discourse. And it is that notion of a fixed essense to a particular civilisation that underlies a lot of colonial thinking - the good old white mans burden - although in this case it is being articulated in patronising noble savage terms.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> Obviously that is often the case, and it certainly shows in LPs article, and reasons for changing the article that there was a lack of knowledge concerning what she speaked her brains on..
> 
> And speaking as a western man that was a convert to islam for half my adult life, i am pretty aware of the respect that a lot of manifestations of islam accords to women. But i'm also pretty aware of the fact that islam - a set of ideas formed by people - can reflect the interests of those who wish to accord power to one group of people over another, and how others - such as muslim feminists and other forms of liberation theology (see farid essak for instance)- can construct notions of islam that reflects struggles against forms of oppression/exploitation that they are under in a particular situation...
> 
> The problem with LPs article is that it seems to assume a fixed notion of islam as this eternal non-changing thing, that has one singular standpoint on segregation - somethign that is, in fact, affirmed and contested by different groups, thinkers and so on within muslim discourse. And it is that notion of a fixed essense to a particular civilisation that underlies a lot of colonial thinking - the good old white mans burden - although in this case it is being articulated in patronising noble savage terms.


 
Of course what you say about the absurdity of referring to "Islam" as if it were one body of doctrine or practice is true.

However I thought Penny's article was less about "Islam" than about Western men's construction of Islam as anti-feminist.

As you know, that is a ridiculous and bigoted construction.  It is nevertheless prevelant among the uneducated, and assiduously fostered by the Western media.  Penny is to be applauded for pointing this out.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> And speaking as a western man that was a convert to islam for half my adult life


 
May I ask whether you reconverted?

As you know, it's very rare to convert _from _Islam.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> I liked it because it's true.
> 
> Western men _do _disguise their Islamophobia behind a flimsy facade of feminism.
> 
> It's been going on for ages.  I well recall how we supposedly invaded Afghanistan because we were so worried that girls weren't going to school or something.  Oldest trick in their book. Works too.



That isn't what the article is about. If the article was about liberal interventionism justifying itself through phony feminist values then I would agree with it, but it isn't.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Of course what you say about the absurdity of referring to "Islam" as if it were one body of doctrine or practice is true.
> 
> However I thought Penny's article was less about "Islam" than about Western men's construction of Islam as anti-feminist.
> 
> As you know, that is a ridiculous and bigoted construction.  It is nevertheless prvelant among the uneducated, and assiduously fostered by the Western media.  Penny is to be applauded for pointing this out.



But she hardly presented a nuanced account of 'islam' herself. She never really payed any emphasis upon the idea that gender segregation is something that is generally oppossed to by muslim feminists, and that it is something that is generally affirmed by apologists for 'orthodox' varities of islam. This is also testified to her later justification of the article on grounds that muslim women thanked her for what she said. There was nothing in that statement that could tell us whether this was coming from a women that affirmed a conservative variety of islam or a liberatory mode of islam. By doing that, she denied access to an audience maybe not aquainted with islam that these matters get contested within islamic discourse. 

What was ironic in that whole speil also was that her quoting the other article, which showed how so called feminist paternalism can be used to justify colonialism, was that that articles arguements where derived from Leilah Ahmeds _women and gender in islam_ a book itself that is a big part of debates within islamic feminist discourse, a book that generally sides on non-segregation - secular feminist arguments, despite the problematics outlined in that book concerning paternalist argments for colonialism and despite conceding that veiling did in some cases in egypt provide access to women into public arena that they hitherto did not have access to that. But with Pennys article one sees none of those nuances despite approaching plagerising Ahmeds book.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> May I ask whether you reconverted?
> 
> As you know, it's very rare to convert _from _Islam.



Short boring story was i read malcom Xs autobiography when i was about 19 and converted not long after reading that, and then stopped believing in God after the coating of apologetics that i had became very adept at started to unravel about 10 years later.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> Short boring story was i read malcom Xs autobiography when i was about 19 and converted not long after reading that, and then stopped believing in God after the coating of apologetics that i had became very adept at started to unravel about 10 years later.


 
"Stopped believing in God."

I always wonder what that means to a monotheist.

For a polytheist, I suppose the issue is a simple one of empirical reality.  Either Thor exists or he doesn't--like the Loch Ness Monster or the Yeti.

But obviously that's not the monotheist understanding of God, which is pretty much "that which makes experience possible."

Experience exists, therefore experience must be possible, therefore there must be something that makes experience possible, God is that which makes experience possible, ergo God exists.

I done a 200-page thread about this once.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

If i had spent more time pondering the metaphysics and epistemology of it all, maybe id've been a better believer or maybe i wouldn't have believed in the first place, but moot point, my ruminations on islam was predicated on it as a political vision so it was pretty inevitable it would all fall apart!


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> "Stopped believing in God."
> 
> I always wonder what that means to a monotheist.
> 
> ...



that which makes experience possible is a grey mass of three distinct brains floating in an electrochemical mix dosed regularly hormones.What then if this intelligence and 'human' take on the world is nothing more than an advantageous quirk highly selected for?


----------



## Greebo (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> <snip>it's very rare to convert _from _Islam.


No, it's very rare to admit to converting from Islam (or making it public knowledge) because of the way that the Muslims you knew while you were one are likely to treat you once they regard you as an apostate.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Well _du-uh._
> 
> [Good to see ya Greebster]


It may be obvious to the old cynic which you are, but it's not obvious to those who seldom look further in depth than that day's headlines.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> No, it's very rare to admit to converting from Islam (or making it public knowledge) because of the way that the Muslims you knew while you were one are likely to treat you once they regard you as an apostate.



Yip. Not that im in fear of my life or anything like that, just that i'd prefer not to be in a position of admitting to 'the brothers' that i sold out as it were - after being so kindly let into the religious community


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> No, it's very rare to admit to converting from Islam (or making it public knowledge) because of the way that the Muslims you knew while you were one are likely to treat you once they regard you as an apostate.


 
No, it's very rare in reality.

Ask the missionaries of British India, who rapidly concluded that Muslims were unconvertable and concentrated on Hindus instead.

The reason is that Islam is a "supersessionist" religion, which includes and accounts for Christianity within itself. 

The reasoning runs thus: the truth is monotheism.  This was revealed to humanity in three stages, the first two of which contained fatal flaws.  The flaw of Judaism was racial exclusivity; the flaw of Christianity was deifying the prophet.

Once someone is convinced of this, it's very difficult to get them back to Christianity-it feels like a regression.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> No, it's very rare in reality.
> 
> <snip>The reason is that Islam is a "supersessionist" religion, which includes and accounts for Christianity within itself.
> 
> ...


The official penalty for apostacy is death.  This might not be widely enforced but it's widely known.  If everyone you know is Muslim, apart from a few people who seem nice enough but happen to have been raised in another faith (and seem to be proselytising), there's a lot of social pressure to keep quiet about any doubts you might have.  You might not see many going public about being Muslim to Christian converts, but try googling Muslims who have become Atheists.


----------



## co-op (Dec 27, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Once someone is convinced of this, it's very difficult to get them back to Christianity-it feels like a regression.



Going back is indeed unlikely. "But only when the last minaret has fallen and the last mosque destroyed will our Holy work be done" - it is always possible to move forward beyond islam as many of its adherents argue (albeit fairly quietly).


----------



## rekil (Dec 28, 2013)

http://www.channel4.com/news/big-fat-graphic-of-year-who-what-shaped-2013

 

lol


----------



## JimW (Dec 28, 2013)

copliker said:


> http://www.channel4.com/news/big-fat-graphic-of-year-who-what-shaped-2013
> 
> View attachment 45616
> 
> lol


 established anti-establishment; that must have been deliberate,surely?


----------



## killer b (Dec 31, 2013)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed2h
So is 4th wave feminism a thing now? What is the shape of the thing? I ask merely for information.


*Billy Bragg* ‏@billybragg19m
@PennyRed It sounds to me like women creating their own radical space in a post-Marxist landscape, seeking new ways to fight old struggles

Are we in a post marxist landscape? is that a thing, or is it just bragg's personal journey?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2013)

killer b said:


> Are we in a post marxist landscape? is that a thing, or is it just bragg's personal journey?



i think its just him.  playing glastonbury and meeting the queen is no replacement for a real and functional class analysis.


----------



## rekil (Dec 31, 2013)

The Indy's commentariat speak their brains about person of the year. Owen's nomination "All of those who fought back", appears to include himself, and his mates, and Labour fronts.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown went for David Tennant.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

Being mates with Frank libertarian eton boy Turner


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

copliker said:


> The Indy's commentariat speak their brains about person of the year. Owen's nomination "All of those who fought back", appears to include himself, and his mates, and Labour fronts.




and his check shirt?


----------



## killer b (Dec 31, 2013)

I appreciate that it's certainly Bragg's personal landscape, but is this something in common use? Has Marx's analysis been finally found wanting?


----------



## captainmission (Dec 31, 2013)

killer b said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed2h
> So is 4th wave feminism a thing now? What is the shape of the thing? I ask merely for information.
> 
> 
> ...



The questions might be based on this truly awful article - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/feminism-needs-new-intellectual-voice

Despite the authors oxbridge education, being assistant editor of the LRB and calling for a new intellectialism for the '4th wave', still has less of an understanding what 2nd and 3rd wave feminism means than a 5 minitue glance at wikipedia would teach.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

killer b said:


> Has Marx's analysis been finally found wanting?



Of capitalism, no.  Of communism, yes.


----------



## xslavearcx (Dec 31, 2013)

captainmission said:


> The questions might be based on this truly awful article - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/feminism-needs-new-intellectual-voice
> 
> Despite the authors oxbridge education, being assistant editor of the LRB and calling for a new intellectialism for the '4th wave', still has less of an understanding what 2nd and 3rd wave feminism means than a 5 minitue glance at wikipedia would teach.



I hate articles like that. have read it twice and still don't really know what the writer was trying to say, or what the point of the article was. Glad that it has been said to be  crap, cause otherwise id be feeling proper thick just now


----------



## benedict (Dec 31, 2013)

One upside of LP's star having risen so high: Private Eye picks up one example of the hypocrisy, nepotism, and self-regard which has powered her ego-driven ascent.


----------



## rekil (Jan 1, 2014)

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/418384147384516608

"I don't regard anyone who upholds the neo-liberal consensus as "the left". Do you honestly believe I'm on the right?"

Good start to the year from Labour drummer boy OJ. Really, wtff, conflating criticism of his party with personal attacks on him.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/418384147384516608
> 
> "I don't regard anyone who upholds the neo-liberal consensus as "the left". Do you honestly believe I'm on the right?"
> 
> Good start to the year from Labour drummer boy OJ. Really, wtff, conflating criticism of his party with personal attacks on him.




some hero interjects:



> Tbh I don't need to know Akehurst's motives to know he's a bellend




good old twatter


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2014)

benedict said:


> One upside of LP's star having risen so high: Private Eye picks up one example of the hypocrisy, nepotism, and self-regard which has powered her ego-driven ascent.


must have been a cosy do. i wonder which songs they sang.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> must have been a cosy do. i wonder which songs they sang.




Clash medley finished off by Boys of The Old Brigade and the Internationale.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2014)




----------



## Bakunin (Jan 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> must have been a cosy do. i wonder which songs they sang.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> must have been a cosy do. i wonder which songs they sang.


----------



## rekil (Jan 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> must have been a cosy do. i wonder which songs they sang.


This


Spoiler







or this


Spoiler








but with choice LP quotes, clips off the telly and that pic of that painting.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2014)

no Wrecking Ball?


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> but with choice LP quotes, clips off the telly and that pic of that painting.



This might be a better backing track for something like that:


----------



## rekil (Jan 1, 2014)

Will The Shit Shovelling Opinion Mongering Recuperators Survive?


----------



## benedict (Jan 1, 2014)

With feeling


----------



## andysays (Jan 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> must have been a cosy do. i wonder which songs they sang.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2014)

andysays said:


>


----------



## rekil (Jan 1, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2014)

Owen unhappy with the standard of debate from lefties on the twitter, as if debate is even possible on the twitter. (Somebody said he smelled of wee or something)



> yes, and this is normally what I get from the ultra-left. Not even a pretence at trying to debate any substance



Helen Lewis chips in.

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/418732184384446464




			
				lewis said:
			
		

> "their interest is not in reducing oppression as much as it is in reducing their own participation in it"



That's a quote from a Matt Bruenig piece which links to a Jacobin article by Gavin Mueller about the bratty idiocy of Malcolm Harris to illustrate his point.




			
				Bruenig said:
			
		

> One of the most frustrating things about being on the left is the profound number of clowns who situate themselves beside me. We’ve got generational warfare clowns. We’ve got New Age gibberish clowns. We’ve got conspiracy theory clowns. And of course, we’ve got hippie drum circle clowns.
> 
> I call these, and others, clowns because they’re behavior seems primarily aimed at personal performance and tends to be accompanied by self-marginalizing lifestyles and costumes. While they seem to retain a broad thematic interest in left goals and can even occasionally explain them to you, their actions are more about personal lifestyles than about any principled interest in success.
> 
> This is especially true among the often-ridiculed, privileged, college student radicals. You know the type: the white kid going to an expensive private school on their parents’ dime, just wanting to learn how to lead The Good Life. These individuals are not generally interested in the kind of boring, long, and often unsuccessful work of running campaigns and winning. They are interested in their own personal purity, ridding themselves of the toxicity of living wrongly, oppressively, with unchecked privilege, and so on.


(It's 'their' not 'they're' btw ffs)

A fairly succinct description of forum faves Malc, Molly, Laurie, Stavri, and their gamut of mates (or allies) I would've thought, though perhaps the level of ambition and saponaceous schmoozing involved in carving careers out of lifestylism distinguishes them from other hobbyist poshos.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

So, basically, the softer-left segment of these clowns think that anyone who is within their circle but disagrees with them over their already incredibly narrow (but posing as universal) politics are _ineffective in their clowning_ - they need to get _serious in their clowning_?  And still they all piss in the same overflowing pot.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> Owen unhappy with the standard of debate from lefties on the twitter, as if debate is even possible on the twitter.



The fact that he wants to have a debate on twitter tells me all I need to know about him.

Burbling on about "do you really think I'm on the right...?"

Twitter _is_ the right, if the term means anything.


----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2014)

Let's challenge OJ, LP and Hellsbells to a debate (venue: new statesman offices; date: when the PD hammer squads decide to pounce and occupy them)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> Let's challenge OJ, LP and Hellsbells to a debate



If those three turned up for a debate which wasn't filmed by a lib-left media foundation's intern, would it really have happened?


----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> If those three turned up for a debate which wasn't filmed by a lib-left media foundation's intern, would it really have happened?


PD can't lose as long is it wheels the debate around to the as yet unsolved Potato Or Turnip question.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

but is the clowning contemporary and ritual?


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 2, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> If those three turned up for a debate which wasn't filmed by a lib-left media foundation's intern, would it really have happened?



Not without their charging extortionate expenses and appearance fees, it wouldn't.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> Let's challenge OJ, LP and Hellsbells to a debate (venue: new statesman offices; date: when the PD hammer squads decide to pounce and occupy them)


 
Some of us have already debated OJ, he did well considering he was out for a quiet pint and ended up surrounded by inebriated Urbanites


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 2, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Some of us have already debated OJ, he did well considering he was out for a quiet pint and ended up surrounded by inebriated Urbanites



That wasn't debating, that was what I believe the hipster generation might call _pop-up trolling_


----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2014)

.


Belushi said:


> Some of us have already debated OJ, he did well considering he was out for a quiet pint and ended up surrounded by inebriated Urbanites


Not one step back!


Bakunin said:


> Not without their charging extortionate expenses and appearance fees, it wouldn't.


They wouldn't show up under any circumstances because unless they appear somewhere to grace the povs with a sermon, and it's been said often enough, the only people that matter to them are others in that bubble. But a public refusal to debate might well go down as a victory in PD's book (of victories)


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

We will _impose _debate upon them.


----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> We will _impose _debate upon them.


Invite them to attend a debate, then inform them that according to the rules of intersectionality and PD's progressive stack app, they're required to check their privilege really hard, so they don't actually get to speak. Basically they'll get comprehensively schooled for 3 hours. No tea either. Or piss breaks.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 2, 2014)

Is there actually a PD app? If not I'm up for using my, albeit rudimentary, programming skills to put one together.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 2, 2014)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Is there actually a PD app? If not I'm up for using my, albeit rudimentary, programming skills to put one together.


First screen should just be a massive big red button


----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2014)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Is there actually a PD app? If not I'm up for using my, albeit rudimentary, programming skills to put one together.


http://proletariandemocracy.wordpre...alising-progressive-stack-app-gui-sneak-peek/

Gathering the data for the tables would be a bit tricky, but you can probably get around it by making it up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 2, 2014)

Amusingly, today Disinfo referred to Brendan O'Neill (ex-RCP nutjob) as a “satirist”:

http://disinfo.com/2014/01/whats-difference-whistleblower-mad-conspiracy-theorist/


----------



## Sue (Jan 3, 2014)

Thought I'd throw this into the mix. Not sure what the point of it is but sure it'll be of interest to those intersectionalistas among us...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/02/trouble-with-passing-race-sexuality-religion


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> Thought I'd throw this into the mix. Not sure what the point of it is but sure it'll be of interest to those intersectionalistas among us...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/02/trouble-with-passing-race-sexuality-religion


Wasn't sure what the point was either - was it simply a piece trying to explain what passing means, and how that relates to intersectionalism?


----------



## Sue (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Wasn't sure what the point was either - was it simply a piece trying to explain what passing means, and how that relates to intersectionalism?


Is it a new spoke on the intersectional wheel of oppression..?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> Is it a new spoke on the intersectional wheel of oppression..?


Is what a new spoke?


----------



## Sue (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Is what a new spoke?


The passing privilege?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> The passing privilege?


Isn't that like the oldest spoke?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> The passing privilege?





my dad earned a shit load of money (50k) for one year. it was the best year ever, they took me and my wife of the time out for currys tons of times - and they were good for a tap... after that it was back to same old same old, but id hope to get a passing privledge again sometime


----------



## Sue (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Isn't that like the oldest spoke?



God knows.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> God knows.


Let's just forget about it.


----------



## Sue (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> my dad earned a shit load of money (50k) for one year. it was the best year ever, they took me and my wife of the time out for currys tons of times - and they were good for a tap... after that it was back to same old same old, but id hope to get a passing privledge again sometime


 A passanda privilege surely..?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> A passanda privilege surely..?



haha yeah, thats definately the right term for it!


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Sue said:


> A passanda privilege surely..?


In Italy it's a passata privilege then?


----------



## rekil (Jan 5, 2014)

A Moz/Hundal double whammy here

https://twitter.com/sunny_hundal/status/419474400497246208



> Have sympathy with Morrissey on this: 'no difference between believing in the abattoir and supporting Auschwitz' http://bit.ly/1hnGKXK


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm tempted to say Sunny hundal himself is a crime against humanity, what of his lib demmery that actually has resulted in deaths through the lib dems helping implement cuts etc


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2014)

Seemed to have missed this:

http://thecoloredfountain.wordpress.com/2013/12/31/a-year-in-review-2013/


----------



## J Ed (Jan 5, 2014)

What do people think of this http://unityandstruggle.org/2013/09...eminist-critique-of-intersectionality-theory/ ?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

I really like Laurie Penny's latest. It's plaintive enough and makes obvious points, but ones that need making again and again at the moment. I think it's summises much of what I felt when I was 17 and didn't know if I had a place to live and how I was going to survive, and sums up succinctly the attitudes that our poisoning our culture.

http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/save-generation-despair-not-enough-hassle-them-low-paying-jobs


----------



## rekil (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I really like Laurie Penny's latest. It's plaintive enough and makes obvious points, but ones that need making again and again at the moment. I think it's summises much of what I felt when I was 17 and didn't know if I had a place to live and how I was going to survive, and sums up succinctly the attitudes that our poisoning our culture.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/save-generation-despair-not-enough-hassle-them-low-paying-jobs



It's just a regurgitation of the 'lost generation, graduates without a future, we're all in it together' schtick which will get wheeled out again at the Fabian do.

http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/new-year-conference-2014/

And this...


> Homeless kids in New York told me how the American dream had become a nightmare from which they could not wake.


...didn't happen.




			
				LP said:
			
		

> So @kierongillen and @McKelvie's new book, 'The Wicked and The Divine', is a concept that has me squealing. SO EXCITE





> Every 90 years or so, eleven gods incarnate in the bodies of the young. They are charismatic and brilliant. They stand before crowds, speak in tongues, and send them into rapture. They’re rumoured to perform secretive miracles. They save people’s lives, either metaphorically or literally.
> 
> They are loved. They are hated. They are brilliant.


Great stuff, oh so special ones, firin' up the sheeple. A bit like new statesman columnists.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 11, 2014)

What are you talking about? I'm sure that countless homeless New Yorkers were in attendance at Molly Crapapple's champagne and porn star unveiling of Laurie Penny's likeness. She must have spoken to LOADS of them


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 11, 2014)

> Every 90 years or so, eleven gods incarnate in the bodies of the young. They are charismatic and brilliant. They stand before crowds, speak in tongues, and send them into rapture. They’re rumoured to perform secretive miracles. They save people’s lives, either metaphorically or literally.
> 
> They are loved. They are hated. They are brilliant.



well, at least the author didn't say 12


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What are you talking about? I'm sure that countless homeless New Yorkers were in attendance at Molly Crapapple's champagne and porn star unveiling of Laurie Penny's likeness. She must have spoken to LOADS of them



It's pretty hard to avoid talking to the homeless in NYC.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jan 11, 2014)

True, but these writers seem to encounter nameless individuals who say exactly the right or wrong thing for their articles all the time. Johann Hari was never done running into people who his readers would either love or hate and would make Hari's point with a quote that was perfect, even if it didn't reflect how people actually speak.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What do people think of this http://unityandstruggle.org/2013/09...eminist-critique-of-intersectionality-theory/ ?



Interesting.


----------



## toggle (Jan 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What do people think of this http://unityandstruggle.org/2013/09...eminist-critique-of-intersectionality-theory/ ?



works for me-  there has to be a balance not loosing sight of the overall goal of smashing patriarchal capitalism but in the meantime, lets work with grassroots level orgs that are making a practical difference in the meantime, for a variety of groups, but making sure we include the needs and voices of the most marginalised in our own spaces and don't take over theirs. hopefully finding a balence between building a whole movement and making sure that movement is not just representing educated white women.


----------



## rekil (Jan 11, 2014)

I had a chat with a homeless fellow in Chicago. He asked me where I was from, so I said Ireland but when I went to head off, he goes 'god save the queen!'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> I had a chat with a homeless fellow in Chicago. He asked me where I was from, so I said Ireland but when I went to head off, he goes 'god save the queen!'


This disunited kingdom


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 11, 2014)

god save our queen elle


----------



## emanymton (Jan 11, 2014)

Damarr said:


> True, but these writers seem to encounter nameless individuals who say exactly the right or wrong thing for their articles all the time. Johann Hari was never done running into people who his readers would either love or hate and would make Hari's point with a quote that was perfect, even if it didn't reflect how people actually speak.


Not naming any names, but I once had an academic I knew ring up me up to 'interview' me for some research he was doing. Started of by saying 'what I want to say you said is this ...' 

Didn't have a problem with it it was pretty much what I would have said anyway, and he got the exact wording he wanted.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Not naming any names, but I once had an academic I knew ring up me up to 'interview' me for some research he was doing. Started of by saying 'what I want to say you said is this ...'
> 
> Didn't have a problem with it it was pretty much what I would have said anyway, and he got the exact wording he wanted.


Good to hear academic research ethics are still alive and well.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Good to hear academic research ethics are still alive and well.




Well I was a relevant person to interview, he was writing about young people involved in protest movements.

And it wasn't anything I didn't think, he just got it done quickly and with exactly the result he wanted. Obviously he would have conducted lots of proper research and interviews as well.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 12, 2014)

I was quoted in the Guardian once and I came across as a lot more coherent than what I'd actually said


----------



## killer b (Jan 12, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I was quoted in the Guardian once and I came across as a lot more coherent than what I'd actually said


this is ok isn't it? when I did work experience at a local newspaper, one of the jobs I had to do was re-write readers letters to make them legible. I think as long as you aren't changing the meaning of what's been said there's no problem with cleaning quotes up.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 12, 2014)

killer b said:


> this is ok isn't it? when I did work experience at a local newspaper, one of the jobs I had to do was re-write readers letters to make them legible. I think as long as you aren't changing the meaning of what's been said there's no problem with cleaning quotes up.


It can be a pretty fine line though.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 12, 2014)

killer b said:


> this is ok isn't it? when I did work experience at a local newspaper, one of the jobs I had to do was re-write readers letters to make them legible. I think as long as you aren't changing the meaning of what's been said there's no problem with cleaning quotes up.



Yes totally, he got what I was trying to say as I quickly shut down urban wondering wtf a Guardian journalist was doing at my desk


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

Cracker here:

The Pope’s beliefs about abortion will become relevant the day the Pope becomes pregnant

Which contains the clain that the popes views are relevant because they are damaging in the real world.



> What the pope says and does influences policy in Catholic countries. One of those countries is Spain, where lawmakers are voting on a plan to allow abortion only in the most extreme cases – where a pregnancy is the result of rape, or is likely to cause death or serious injury. In any other circumstances, Spanish women will be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term and go through the pain and physical risk of childbirth. Similar struggles are going on in Ireland, the United States and everywhere that right-wing politicians are trying to rally support by trampling on women’s rights.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

> We wanted to believe that this Pope was different. In these anxious times, it hasn’t just been Catholics who got overexcited by the idea of a spiritual leader who could inspire the world to be better



You and articul8. And yeah, it was, you mugs.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You and articul8. And yeah, it was, you mugs.



 I thought she said she was Jewish


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I thought she said she was Jewish



According to her Wikipedia entry, it says this:



> Penny was born in London and grew up in Brighton.[2][3] She is of Irish, Jewish, and Maltese descent.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

She has - don't know whether that means just bog standard cultural or what (i suspect it extends to identity claiming). Not sure what that's got to do with her piece though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She has - don't know whether that means just bog standard cultural or what (i suspect it extends to identity claiming). Not sure what that's got to do with her piece though.



Ah fair enough - I thought you said she was catholic there, sorry misread.


----------



## rekil (Jan 14, 2014)

If she wasn't so evidently ignorant of the goings on in Argentina's dictatorship, maybe she might've mentioned something about about the babystealing and assorted other cruelties women were subjected to while Mr.Bergoglio was head of the jesuits there.



> In other news, bears – despite a massive global rebranding effort – still shit in the woods.


Horrible cliche. So lazy. English lit degree from Oxford and all.


> For almost a year, liberals all over the world allowed themselves to believe that this Pope was different


Has she strayed from her autonomist roots and gone back to to identifying as a liberal once more here? Or just tut-tutting.



frogwoman said:


> I thought she said she was Jewish


I had LP do a priv off with Camila Vallejo and it's official; she is officially more oppressed as long her claim to have jewish heritage is considered to be valid. Otherwise they're tied. Step back and check your privilege Cami, you would've won if you hadn't had that baby, or got elected.


----------



## benedict (Jan 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has she strayed from her autonomist roots and gone back to to identifying as a liberal once more here? Or just tut-tutting.



Trying to appeal to the NYC/SF arty radical hipster market niche probably. Also accounts for her frequent visits to the United States. I'd put money on her moving there at some point.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Ah fair enough - I thought you said she was catholic there, sorry misread.


Nah, but she did like to draw on stigmata to belittle and bully catholic schoolmates.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Nah, but she did like to draw on stigmata to belittle and bully catholic schoolmates.



That's not on.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2014)

I wonder if she's gonna brag about drawing pics of Mohammed to bully Muslim kids?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's not on.


Eh? She did.



> I also once drew stigmata on my hands and face in felt-tip to freak-out my Catholic classmates - face it, I’m essentially perfect for the job.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with doing that btw.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2014)

which of the stigmata is on face? side feet and hands shirly


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 14, 2014)

How do you draw stigmata on your face?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Eh? She did.



No I meant if she was doing it to bully them.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 14, 2014)

Im just imagining Penny in her ignorence drawing on a bindi, chasing Jahovas witness's around the class saying "look at me Im padre pio"


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm laughing more at the suggestion that there were 'catholic classmates' crossing themselves going _holy mary mother of god noooo! _Little bit racist that laurie.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> How do you draw stigmata on your face?




marks from the crown of thorns maybe? certainly not the ordinary stigma


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> No I meant if she was doing it to bully them.


She a) wasn't doing it all - like her pretending to wear a burqa for a week thing and b) has written about being the bullied and c)_ holy mary mother of god nooooo!_


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2014)

This article coming in the wake of her no sex segregation happens at Muslim events and if you think there is any you're racist article is a bit rich.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jan 14, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Im just imagining Penny in her ignorence drawing on a bindi, chasing Jahovas witness's around the class saying "look at me Im padre pio"


I'm thinking it was more of a Kay Burley style 'What's Joe Biden got on his forehead? Did he fall over?' moment.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's not on.



Yes it is.

Surely there is a happy medium between being a Dawkins like ball bag and this pandering to soft headed religious idiocy.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 15, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> Surely there is a happy medium between being a Dawkins like ball bag and this pandering to soft headed religious idiocy.



Aye fair enough, Laurie's done plenty of the latter in the past though!


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2014)

someone told me that back in the day, yiddish anarchists used to taunt believers going to the synagogue (in Whitechapel I believe)  with bacon sarnies. 

Can anyone confirm that story.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 15, 2014)

revol68 said:


> someone told me that back in the day, yiddish anarchists used to taunt believers going to the synagogue (in Whitechapel I believe)  with bacon sarnies.
> 
> Can anyone confirm that story.


 
i think Garek was the one knows more about that, it's true I think 

I know they also used to have dancing nights on yom kippur as well  Fair play tbf.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> which of the stigmata is on face? side feet and hands shirly



Scratches from the crown of thorns, blates, or perhaps stretched cheeks like what Jesus had after been orally-raped by the legionaries.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2014)

revol68 said:


> someone told me that back in the day, yiddish anarchists used to taunt believers going to the synagogue (in Whitechapel I believe)  with bacon sarnies.
> 
> Can anyone confirm that story.



The story certainly appears in Bill Fishman's "East End Jewish Radicals 1875-1914", and most of Fishman's stuff is decently-sourced.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Scratches from the crown of thorns, blates, or perhaps stretched cheeks like what Jesus had after been orally-raped by the legionaries.


 
Did this actually happen?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Did this actually happen?



I have no idea.


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2014)

christ VP. bit much mate.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 15, 2014)

Nah.


----------



## cesare (Jan 15, 2014)

*inserts Yahweh raping lolz*


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 15, 2014)

revol68 said:


> someone told me that back in the day, yiddish anarchists used to taunt believers going to the synagogue (in Whitechapel I believe)  with bacon sarnies.
> 
> Can anyone confirm that story.


For the love of god,was there no radical intersectional blogs to call out early 20th century Yiddish anarchists of the east end for this kind of behaviour?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 15, 2014)

cesare said:


> *inserts Yahweh raping lolz*


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> For the love of god,was there no radical intersectional blogs to call out early 20th century Yiddish anarchists of the east end for this kind of behaviour?




personals in the back of radical pamphlets/newspapers


'Sirs- on the matter of bacon sandwich gesticulations- check your privilege sirrah! And check it well.'


----------



## cesare (Jan 15, 2014)

TruXta said:


>


Why is that worse?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 15, 2014)

cesare said:


> Why is that worse?


It's not


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 15, 2014)

Rape, lol.


----------



## Brechin Sprout (Jan 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Did this actually happen?


Not just his mouth:


> his dear, broken body all open wounds,
> and in each wound his side, his back,
> his mouth - I came and came and came


Got the Pink Paper. And James Kirkup into a spot of bother.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 15, 2014)

Brechin Sprout said:


> Not just his mouth:
> 
> Got the Pink Paper. And James Kirkup into a spot of bother.


Jaysus that's some top shelf blasphemy, Glenn Benton cant top that!


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> personals in the back of radical pamphlets/newspapers
> 
> 
> 'Sirs- on the matter of bacon sandwich gesticulations- check your privilege sirrah! And check it well.'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Did this actually happen?


The whole son-of-God-rising-from-the-dead spiel, _that_ I can believe...


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 15, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The whole son-of-God-rising-from-the-dead spiel, _that_ I can believe...



Elvis is also attempting a comeback, he's only got six feet to go.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Jaysus that's some top shelf blasphemy, Glenn Benton cant top that!



Yeah, but Glenn had an upside-down cross branded on his forehead, and the poet didn't, so Deicide win!


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 16, 2014)

Holy shit. This is so hilariously sloppy from Penny. She accurately quotes the Pope describing abortion as 'frightful' then in the next paragraph mis-quotes him as describing it as 'horrific'. Did she not read it?



> In his recent speech, Pope Francis warned us all that we’re living in a “throwaway culture”. “Unfortunately, what is thrown away is not only food and dispensable objects,” he said, “but often human beings themselves, who are discarded as ‘unnecessary.’ For example, *it is frightful even to think there are children, victims of abortion, who will never see the light of day*.”
> 
> The Pope, like all human beings of every faith and none, has a right to his opinion. The Pope is free to believe that abortion is wrong. I have no problem with that, right up to the point where his beliefs start to influence the autonomy of others, so the Pope’s beliefs about abortion will become relevant the day the Pope gets pregnant. *Telling the world that abortion is “horrific”, however, is not a question of faith*. Theological debate is not what matters here. What matters is women’s lives, and men in positions of power deciding that we don’t deserve the right to control what happens to our bodies.



The "frightful" line comes from the official Vatican translation: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/f...-francesco_20140113_corpo-diplomatico_en.html

However, most media have wrongly translated it as "horrific".


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

I see Brand is declaring that "And finally, through the love of a good woman, teenage, sexist me was slain." Damn those non-good women who failed to bring him to his senses in his near 40 years on this earth prior to this.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Holy shit. This is so hilariously sloppy from Penny. She accurately quotes the Pope describing abortion as 'frightful' then in the next paragraph mis-quotes him as describing it as 'horrific'. Did she not read it?



Yet another in her endless parade of useless sub-editors, methinks.

Nothing to do with being a dishonest, sloppy, careless, second-rate hack paid to bullshit by the the word, obviously...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh god, it gets worse - Khan is the 'good woman' - I wonder how having associate editor and financial contributor to the broke new statesman be your guardian angel helped in getting a Russel Brand issue?

Oh we're coming, like nazi pigs crashing through the window in american werewolf in london - we're coming.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I see Brand is declaring that "And finally, through the love of a good woman, teenage, sexist me was slain." Damn those non-good women who failed to bring him to his senses in his near 40 years on this earth prior to this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

Not quite sure if this the right thread, but this is an example of the shit this thread is about on the cultural level. Read this and _hate_. Hate _hard_. Then hate _harder_.

Falling Down the Rabbit Hole of NYC’s Lena Dunham Obsession



> * March 1998: A Vogue story on precocious tweens in New York features Lena Dunham:
> 
> "There's no Prada allowed in one downtown household. Laurie Simmons and Carroll Dunham's eleven-year-old daughter, Lena, has a street edge that could leave even Miss Schnabel feeling momentarily inadequate. "I tried to model this after Helmut Lang," says Lena, showing off a shift she sewed herself. Her fashion pronouncements are something you'd expect from a woman (at least) three times her age: "I tend not to go for trends. You can only wear them for two weeks . . . . I really like Jil Sander, but it's so expensive.... I find Calvin Klein really hard to respect because he's everywhere. I view him as a clothesmonger . . . . Manolo is really classy." Then she returns to preteen reality—"But five dollars a week [i.e., her allowance] isn't really enough. I'm just looking."


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not quite sure if this the right thread, but this is an example of the shit this thread is about on the cultural level. Read this and _hate_. Hate _hard_. Then hate _harder_.
> 
> Falling Down the Rabbit Hole of NYC’s Lena Dunham Obsession


Have you seen any of it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

Of what? NYC? Have you read any of the article?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not quite sure if this the right thread, but this is an example of the shit this thread is about on the cultural level. Read this and _hate_. Hate _hard_. Then hate _harder_.
> 
> Falling Down the Rabbit Hole of NYC’s Lena Dunham Obsession


Why?

I've never heard of any of these people, and I don't want to.  Why are you bringing them to my attention?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Of what? NYC? Have you read any of the article?


No, the show _Girls_.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> No, the show _Girls_.



I bet you've seen it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> No, the show _Girls_.


Ok, I didn't mention the show. No, never even heard of it. Heard of her. Sort of the point of the article.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I bet you've seen it.


My wife watches it, I saw one episode out of curiousity. Once was enough.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Ok, I didn't mention the show. No, never even heard of it. Heard of her. Sort of the point of the article.


Sure, just curious. I'd never heard of her before I saw the show, didn't even recognize the name. And yes, I did read the article.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> My wife watches it, I saw one episode out of curiousity. Once was enough.



Well I haven't even got a TV.  Beat that.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well I haven't even got a TV.  Beat that.


I find a TV handy for watching films and shows and sport streamed to my laptop. Don't really watch telly as such.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I bet you've seen it.



I've seen it. It is horrible.

It's very well done, high production values, the script can be quite clever - but the people it depicts are all utterly horrible people.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I've seen it. It is horrible.
> 
> It's very well done, high production values, the script can be quite clever - but the people it depicts are all utterly horrible people.


That's what I said to my OH as well - why are you watching this when every character is a horrible upper class shit?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I've seen it. It is horrible.
> 
> It's very well done, high production values, the script can be quite clever - but the people it depicts are all utterly horrible people.



... who we are supposed to aspire to imitate?  Because they have nice clothes and sexual intercourse with a variety of attractive partners?

See, I don't need to watch it now.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well I haven't even got a TV.  Beat that.


 
are you LLETSA in disguise?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> ... who we are supposed to aspire to imitate?  Because they have nice clothes and sexual intercourse with a variety of attractive partners?
> 
> See, I don't need to watch it now.


Well, one "selling point" of the show is that Ms. Dunham, who's not really particularly in line with prevailing body beautiful discourses, flaunts her flesh. A lot.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> That's what I said to my OH as well - why are you watching this when every character is a horrible upper class shit?


But, what's his name - the bloke who did Rushmore - showed that it can be done.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

I thought it mildly amusing for a bit but there is fuck all of substance to it. Things go really bad when she tries to write non white middle class characters, see the black and latino co workers straight from racist central castings.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> But, what's his name - the bloke who did Rushmore - showed that it can be done.


Fair point. At least he's funny. Wes Anderson?


revol68 said:


> I thought it mildly amusing for a bit but there is fuck all of substance to it. Things go really bad when she tries to write non white middle class characters, see the black and latino co workers straight from racist central castings.


Are there non-white characters? Honestly hadn't noticed.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> But, what's his name - the bloke who did Rushmore - showed that it can be done.



Does he, his films are twee shite.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Does he, his films are twee shite.


Rushmore was pretty good. The Royal Tenenbaum's was OK. Fantastic Mr Fox - mostly because I do love some stop motion animation. Oh, just remembered I've seen that Moonrise Kingdom too. Wasn't too shabby either.

I don't get the cult around him, but there's lots worse out there.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Does he, his films are twee shite.


The third film, good lord my memory today, (google break) The Royal Tenenbaums wasn't really twee - the later stuff, that i can totally see as twee shit. I think it sort of ended between us there though.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I thought it mildly amusing for a bit but there is fuck all of substance to it. Things go really bad when she tries to write non white middle class characters, see the black and latino co workers straight from racist central castings.



Why do you waste your time with this nonsense?  Isn't life too short?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

Damn, I actually Googled this Lena thing now:

"Dunham was born in New York City.[4] Her father, Carroll Dunham, is a painter of "overtly sexualized pop art", and her mother, Laurie Simmons, is a photographer and designer, who creates artistic domestic scenes with dolls.[5][6]"

What do these people do for _money?_


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The third film, good lord my memory today, (google break) The Royal Tenenbaums wasn't really twee - the later stuff, that i can totally see as twee shit. I think it sort of ended between us there though.



Actually not just twee, it's the affected quirkiness of his characters, the weird timelessness and the not as funny or clever as it thinks it is humour.

Surprised you have any time for it Butchers, convinced you'd have filed it under middle brow indie dross.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Damn, I actually Googled this Lena thing now:
> 
> "Dunham was born in New York City.[4] Her father, Carroll Dunham, is a painter of "overtly sexualized pop art", and her mother, Laurie Simmons, is a photographer and designer, who creates artistic domestic scenes with dolls.[5][6]"
> 
> What do these people do for _money?_


I think you just answered your own question there phil.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I thought it mildly amusing for a bit but there is fuck all of substance to it. Things go really bad when she tries to write non white middle class characters, see the black and latino co workers straight from racist central castings.



Well, that's it, she thinks she's writing something of substance. And that's key to these people: they all think they're Holden Caulfield (or Che Guevara in Laurie's case) when in fact they're like the more odious characters in the Great Gatsby.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Actually not just twee, it's the affected quirkiness of his films, the weird timelessness and the not as funny or clever as it thinks it is humour.
> 
> Surprised you have any time for it Butchers, convinced you'd have filed it under middle brow indie dross.


I think he invented half of that stuff. Rushmore/tennabauams = great. Not bothered after that.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, that's it, she thinks she's writing something of substance. And that's key to these people: they all think they're Holden Caulfield (or Che Guevara in Laurie's case) when in fact they're like the more odious characters in the Great Gatsby.


I can't for the life of me see where the resonance is for young women (or men, for that matter). Am I that out of touch?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

All thing that people like that write are of substance because they are the people writing them.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> All thing that people like that write are of substance because they are the people writing them.


In which case I can almost pity them. ALMOST.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> In which case I can almost pity them. ALMOST.


I don't mean to themselves though - i mean to the extrnmal world, the people who make shows and pull strings. (See the article for how and why  those who didn't read it)


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

Rushmore I liked, Bottle Rocket I hated, Royal Tennabaums I just couldn't warm to at all, too stylised, too quirky, basically just too Wes Anderson. 

Oddly I'm liking the look of Hotel Budapest cause it is set in a properly surreal world and not simply some stylised indie hipster catcher in the rye realm.

That's what it is, all his films remind me of Catcher in the Rye.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh man, I Googled some more of her now:

"Lena Dunham, creator/ writer/ producer/ star of the HBO award-winning series “Girls,” showcased the leading character, Hannah, (played by Dunham herself) in very raw and honest encounters with the illness toward the end of this past season. Hannah had dealt with OCD in high school. It resurfaced when she was faced with two significant stressors: trying to write an e-book in a short time frame, and dealing with the rocky aftermath of a breakup.Whether the scenes illustrated episodes of relentless tics, counting, or a compulsive habit that brought her to the emergency room, “Girls” took on authentic territory that invited other OCD sufferers to feel less alone."

So _Girls _is about a girl trying to write a script called "Girls" but going mad instead.  Have I missed anything?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I don't mean to themselves though - i mean to the extrnmal world, the people who make shows and pull strings. (See the article for how and why  those who didn't read it)


Not sure I get you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Not sure I get you.


They get shit made and talked about - it carries that weight rather than just being valued because these privileged fucks value it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 17, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So _Girls _is about a girl trying to write a script called "Girls" but going mad instead.  Have I missed anything?


Yes you forget to stick a "meta" in there.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> They get shit made and talked about - it carries that weight rather than just being valued because these privileged fucks value it.


Ah, yes, ok. Still don't get why people (like my wife) find it interesting tho. Horses for courses I guess, goodness knows I watch enough shite that has no real relation to my own life.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

On a similar tip, anyone watch Francais Ha? I turned it off after half an hour, was like Girls but without the laughs.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Ah, yes, ok. Still don't get why people (like my wife) find it interesting tho. Horses for courses I guess, goodness knows I watch enough shite that has no real relation to my own life.


Get rid.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> On a similar tip, anyone watch Francais Ha? I turned it off after half an hour, was like Girls but without the laughs.


Frances Ha (had to google it ) - nah never seen it - IMDB tells me it's made by Wes A protege Noah Baumbach...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> On a similar tip, anyone watch Francais Ha? I turned it off after half an hour, was like Girls but without the laughs.


Never heard of it, but the name going through my head earlier was this Noah bloke. Idris liked his squid and whale film. I hated it. A perfect example of how to make me hate rich people rather than like them like anderson/tennebaums.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Get rid.


Easier said than done. There isnt't a lot of stuff about late 30 something Northern Europeans living in SE London to my knowledge


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Frances Ha (had to google it ) - nah never seen it - IMDB tells me it's made by Wes A protege Noah Baumbach...



All these rich easy coast wasp cunts are in on it together!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

"“There’s stuff that Hannah has done in her ignorance or good-hearted way that I would never, ever undertake in my life,” Dunham added. For example, after Hannah’s parents abruptly cut her off, she pockets the tip for the housekeeper they’ve left in their hotel room."

http://www.jewishjournal.com/the_ticket/item/girls_writer_lays_bare_womens_insecurities_20120425/


----------



## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

revol68 said:


> All these rich easy coast wasp cunts are in on it together!


I'm gonna nick that "easy coast" line.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Never heard of it, but the name going through my head earlier was this Noah bloke. Idris liked his squid and whale film. I hated it. A perfect example of how to make me hate rich people rather than like them like anderson/tennebaums.



It hurts me to know you like Tennebaums. Like I said it's all a bit Catcher in the Rye, the world he invokes atleast, just with added hipster quirk.

Maybe I'm being too harsh on it cause of his fan base.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Never heard of it, but the name going through my head earlier was this Noah bloke. Idris liked his squid and whale film. I hated it. A perfect example of how to make me hate rich people rather than like them like anderson/tennebaums.




HANG ON A FUCKING SECOND there, sirrah. WHERE EXACTLY did I ever say that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> HANG ON A FUCKING SECOND there, sirrah. WHERE EXACTLY did I ever say that?


Idris, you know that i know and that i said it because i know - you know that right?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Idris, you know that i know and that i said it because i know - you know that right?



I certainly never said anything like that on here, you can depend on it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I certainly never said anything like that on here, you can depend on it.


I note the 'on here'. _I have written here on this piece of paper_...


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I note the 'on here'. _I have written here on this piece of paper_...




. . . Herr Butchersapron's solemn declaration that he does not want war, and that he is completely sound in mind and body. . .


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 17, 2014)

"The idea that the feminism conversation could be cool again and not just feel like some granola BS is so exciting to me."


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think he invented half of that stuff. Rushmore/tennabauams = great. Not bothered after that.


I thought Moonrise Kingdom was a bit of a return to form. But the Life Aquatic was poor.

Revols totally wrong about Frances Ha btw, more because of Greta Gertwig than Baumbach.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 20, 2014)

Assange is pissed at the NS.



> @*PennyRed* @*ggreenwald* Laurie Penny, PPE clique member, whose editor at the New Statesman, Helan Lewis, is also a PPE clique member.


https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/425281980528214016


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2014)

lets get him out for the occupation


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/425300438770929664

*Owen JonesVerified account*‏@OwenJones84
@PennyRed @wikileaks Maybe if you were a Republican member of a political dynasty like Rand Paul, then Julian Assange would like you

... which is true but my god 'opposition' to established interests in the 21st Century in the West is so shit. Privately educated Oxbridge fauxcialists duking it out with Randians. A plague on both their houses.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 20, 2014)

> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  28m
> I have no idea why @*wikileaks* is slagging me off, and would appreciate some support from people who are at all familiar with my work. Ta.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2014)

whoever wins, we all lose


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

Truth is defined by favourites and retweets on twitter


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> whoever wins, we all lose



I'm sure that one of those books on Laurie Penny's reading list, all of which I'm sure she has actually read, has something to say about that.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 20, 2014)

It's a fight nobody wanted or cares about.

On one side: The giant ego of Julian Assange

The other: The giant egos of Penny and others.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2014)

Alien vs Predator film tagline


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

Maybe now that wikileaks is feuding with the NS they can feed info to PD snatch squads


----------



## rekil (Jan 20, 2014)

Assange is trying to discredit PD's anydaynow occupy NS operation. Stfu you rapey randroid weirdo.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

The article that wikileaks seems upset over is pretty awful apologism to be honest. The right libertarian views of wikileaks *do* bother me, although they make me wonder whether they aren't just a manifestation of the absolute failure of the left to provide a clearly identifiable alternative to neoliberalism for the disaffected. Still, if an article tried to discredit opposition to drone strikes in Yemen or Pakistan or wherever by running a hit piece on the homophobic views expressed in a chatroom of whoever was doing drone casualty monitoring that would be pretty stupid too. Snowden could be an outright neo-Nazi or a believer in UFOs, it doesn't make any of what he has leaked less true or worrying.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 20, 2014)

Assange going after Owen now. Not chuffed.


----------



## cesare (Jan 20, 2014)

Charlie Brooker called Owen Jones "The Pious Newborn" last week  CB's a pita but that made me laugh.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

*WikiLeaks* ‏@wikileaks  5h
For those not aware of the New Statesman, it is essentially the liberal/New Labour end of Britain's PPE clique http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511…

He isn't that far from the truth here tbh.


----------



## The Pale King (Jan 20, 2014)

J Ed said:


> *WikiLeaks* ‏@wikileaks  5h
> For those not aware of the New Statesman, it is essentially the liberal/New Labour end of Britain's PPE clique http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511…
> 
> He isn't that far from the truth here tbh.



He's bang on. What do Laurie Penny and Helen Lewis think the New Statesman is? A radical journal?


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jan 20, 2014)

Wikileaks accused Penny and Lewis by name of being members of the PPE clique earlier, even though neither did PPE.

You don't need to make shit up to cast doubt on their radical credentials.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 20, 2014)

You know there's a problem when Julian makes more sense than you


----------



## J Ed (Jan 20, 2014)

Damarr said:


> Wikileaks accused Penny and Lewis by name of being members of the PPE clique earlier, even though neither did PPE.



I get what they might be saying though, they mean that there was a social circle of people at Oxford that mostly did PPE that had a few people who were doing other courses in it.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 20, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The article that wikileaks seems upset over is pretty awful apologism to be honest. The right libertarian views of wikileaks *do* bother me, although they make me wonder whether they aren't just a manifestation of the absolute failure of the left to provide a clearly identifiable alternative to neoliberalism for the disaffected. Still, if an article tried to discredit opposition to drone strikes in Yemen or Pakistan or wherever by running a hit piece on the homophobic views expressed in a chatroom of whoever was doing drone casualty monitoring that would be pretty stupid too. Snowden could be an outright neo-Nazi or a believer in UFOs, it doesn't make any of what he has leaked less true or worrying.


This is hilarious.


> But as Reuters has reported, Snowden gained access to mountains of classified material through more prosaic means: obtaining log-ins and passwords from a small number of highly trained co-workers, some of whom have since been fired from their posts. One of Reuters’s sources suggested that Snowden acquired the log-ins by telling his colleagues that he needed them “to do his job as a computer systems administrator


You work for the NSA, but give your logon details to someone who asks?


----------



## killer b (Jan 20, 2014)

emanymton said:


> You work for the NSA, but give your logon details to someone who asks?


this is how we know conspiracies don't work. dickheads, everywhere.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2014)

well that english bloke downloaded a basic script and 'hacked' the pentagon computers didn't he? At that point if I was in charge of net security I'd be offering the man a job. But as the embarrassment was too great they tried to permajail him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> *WikiLeaks* ‏@wikileaks  5h
> For those not aware of the New Statesman, it is essentially the liberal/New Labour end of Britain's PPE clique http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511…
> 
> He isn't that far from the truth here tbh.



Stopped clock, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> He's bang on. What do Laurie Penny and Helen Lewis think the New Statesman is? A radical journal?



Well, that's certainly what they present and represent it as, isn't it?
Obviously, we cynics see these actions as entirely instrumental on their parts, but who knows, maybe they and their co-workers do labour under an *actual delusion* that they're radicals working for a radical journal?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, that's certainly what they present and represent it as, isn't it?
> Obviously, we cynics see these actions as entirely instrumental on their parts, but who knows, maybe they and their co-workers do labour under an *actual delusion* that they're radicals working for a radical journal?


I've got a suspicion LP believes her own press.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

I think it's a wrong claim - the PPE lot are in parliament, working as advisers and more directly parliament and party focused think tanks. The NS really is the english lit graduate end of it (see the two named). The soppier end of elite dominance based on a smaller different more individual type of instrumentalism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I've got a suspicion LP believes her own press.



I've got more than a sneaking suspicion that you're right.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 21, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> "“There’s stuff that Hannah has done in her ignorance or good-hearted way that I would never, ever undertake in my life,” Dunham added. For example, after Hannah’s parents abruptly cut her off, she pockets the tip for the housekeeper they’ve left in their hotel room."
> 
> http://www.jewishjournal.com/the_ticket/item/girls_writer_lays_bare_womens_insecurities_20120425/



Ignorance, you say?



> I have such sentimental feelings for Gap. I do! There was a Gap across the street from where I went to school in New York and I would go there all the time. I didn't have any money but when they had the clearance rack I bought a suit jacket. I wore it for five years till it completely lost all its shape and my wife finally made me throw it away. So when that came up, it just seemed obvious. Who doesn't want to support Gap?"



http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/jan/18/adam-driver-girls-inside-llewyn-davis


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

_...and then i transferred to Julliard._


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 21, 2014)

My sister is studying cello at the Moscow conservatory.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2014)

garments assembled pediactrically


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

*SATURDAY 1 FEBRUARY
SOCIETY
10am – 6pm
Day Pass* *£12* 
A day of talks, debates, keynotes and big ideas, all looking at issues affecting men in society.

*David Lammy MP*, *Larry Harvey*, *Seány* *O’Kane*, *Charlie Condou * and *David Aaronovitch * share their experiences of being a father and a son.
*Akala * on young black male professionals.
*Mat Fraser* and *Martin Daubney * on sex and promiscuity.
*Baaba Maal* and *Topher Campbell* on Being a Black Man.
*John McKeown* on depression, drug abuse and alcoholism.
*Michael Kaufman* on men and violence.
*Billy* *Bragg*,* Wayne Hemingway * and *Nick Hornby* on Being a Bloke.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

*Billy Bragg*,* Wayne Hemingway * and *Nick Hornby* on Being a Bloke.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

*Billy Bragg*,* Wayne Hemingway * and *Nick Hornby*


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

See y'all there!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

on Being a Bloke.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

it's enough to make you gnaw your own balls off in horror.


----------



## Balbi (Jan 21, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> *SATURDAY 1 FEBRUARY
> SOCIETY
> 10am – 6pm
> Day Pass £12*
> ...



What. Why. Where?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 21, 2014)

Ernest Hemingway would have been more interesting.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Three millionaires on Being a Bloke. £12


----------



## rekil (Jan 21, 2014)

There's the Fabian do this weekend. More PPEs and assorted oxbridgers than you can shake an electric cig at.

http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/new-year-conference-2014/

How does LP square that 6 months old _"I come from a tradition of socialist and anarchist thinking which is at odds with the party structure, which is autonomism. [...] I'm an internet journalist which sits very very badly indeed with any party format right now"_ nonsense with gigs like this then.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2014)

is it wrong to hope for a mysterious fire


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> is it wrong to hope for a mysterious fire


Hope - yes. Start - maybe not.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> is it wrong to hope for a mysterious fire


One that would quietly progress though the building not revealing its full intentions until those trapped in the flames had no escape?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> One that would quietly progress though the building not revealing its full intentions until those trapped in the flames had no escape?


 
where entryism and arson intersect.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 21, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> where entryism and arson intersect.


 
Would they know their entryism from their arson though?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> *Billy Bragg*,* Wayne Hemingway * and *Nick Hornby*



Sting singing on the roof of The Barbican.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sting singing on the roof of The Barbican.


Holding hands with Paul Simon.


----------



## belboid (Jan 21, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Holding hands with Paul Simon.


phew - if they're holding hands Sting can't be playing the lute


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> There's the Fabian do this weekend. More PPEs and assorted oxbridgers than you can shake an electric cig at.
> 
> http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/new-year-conference-2014/
> 
> How does LP square that 6 months old _"I come from a tradition of socialist and anarchist thinking which is at odds with the party structure, which is autonomism. [...] I'm an internet journalist which sits very very badly indeed with any party format right now"_ nonsense with gigs like this then.



A roll call of cunts, chancers and boils on the arse of the body politic, and no mistake!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2014)

belboid said:


> phew - if they're holding hands Sting can't be playing the lute



Or doing the Tantric boogaloo with Trudy.

One hopes.


----------



## chilango (Jan 21, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> *Billy Bragg*,* Wayne Hemingway * and *Nick Hornby* on Being a Bloke.



Fucking hell.

just...fucking hell.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 21, 2014)

chilango said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> just...fucking hell.


 
I know.  and the deeper that sinks in, the more bilious I feel.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 21, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Ernest Hemingway would have been more interesting.



He ended up as a sort of "male impersonator" after all



goldenecitrone said:


> Would they know their entryism from their arson though?



Ah, they're just arson about.


----------



## chilango (Jan 21, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> I know.  and the deeper that sinks in, the more bilious I feel.









Let the peoples' will prevail.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2014)

the prosecution rests!


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 21, 2014)

chilango said:


> Let the peoples' will prevail.



Indeed...


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the prosecution rests!



"Send them down!" etc


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Being a bloke:


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Let the people sing!


----------



## rekil (Jan 21, 2014)

They should take it on the road: Blokeapalooza


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> They should take it on the road: Blokeapalooza


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Being a bloke:




No matter how many times this is posted up, it's still a class vid


----------



## chilango (Jan 21, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> "Send them down!" etc








more like...


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Let the people sing!



I think Cornelius Cardew has a song along those lines:



(paging killer b - yer man's on the mike again)


----------



## rekil (Jan 21, 2014)

"Tell us what being a bloke means to you."


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

chilango said:


> more like...



Funnily enough, there's a piece in the latest issue of Datacide mag about the kidnap/killing of H M Schleyer.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 46962
> 
> "Tell us what being a bloke means to you."


_Quick. Do it now. 140 characters or less_


----------



## chilango (Jan 21, 2014)




----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Hideous chart. But accurate.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

Ablokealypse.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 21, 2014)




----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 21, 2014)

"Fucking hell, Death. You look like Comrade Delta warmed up".


----------



## emanymton (Jan 21, 2014)

I tend to think Paul Mason is Ok, but for fucks sake

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/new-middle-classes-world-poor

Apparently this is middle class


> The key markers were: families had access to savings and insurance, were likely to have a TV in the home and to live in smaller households (four people). They would typically spend 2% of their income on entertainment – plus they would have better access to water, sanitation and electricity.



But I think this is the best bit, although he is quoting someone else he does not seem critical of it.



> Around 1870, class explained more than two thirds of global inequality. And now? The proportions have exactly flipped: more than two thirds of total inequality is due to location


----------



## cesare (Jan 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "Fucking hell, Death. You look like Comrade Delta warmed up".


----------



## revol68 (Jan 22, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I tend to think Paul Mason is Ok, but for fucks sake
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/new-middle-classes-world-poor
> 
> ...



I got the impression he was kind of mocking such an analysis. He puts this "middle class" in scare quotes quite a bit in it.

And he has this to say in response to the that quote from Milanovic.



> Milanovic calls this the "non-Marxian world", in which class struggle becomes less useful as a strategy and the logical thing to do is migrate: "Either poor countries will become richer or poor people will migrate to rich countries". I think, on the contrary, that the upsurge of unrest is a signal that the rising, poor, new middle class – which cannot migrate en masse – has decided to force poor countries to become richer in democracy, sustainability, urban infrastructure, healthcare.



So yeah I think there is a cynical tone to the piece, it could be a lot more explicit, well maybe not if you want to keep your pretty senior position in the world of media, especially on economic matters.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 22, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I got the impression he was kind of mocking such an analysis. He puts this "middle class" in scare quotes quite a bit in it.
> 
> And he has this to say in response to the that quote from Milanovic.
> 
> ...


Maybe, but he does say 'Branko Milanovic has shown', not claimed or argued. Although I haven't checked the link out yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Is collymore vs hopkins within our purview?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

something to do with this?:



Surely @*StanCollymore* can find something better to do with his time than sit weeping over twitter. Using women's heads as footballs perhaps?


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## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Yep.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

Hopkins is a grade A moron tbf,and just who is alan bstard MP?


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## articul8 (Jan 22, 2014)

Sunny Hundal - after a war:
http://labourlist.org/2014/01/one-day-we-will-look-back-and-regret-not-intervening-in-syria-earlier/


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## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

LP gets her way and a porn star talks. Shocking. The key thing is being laurie's mate.

edit: and the point of the article is don't be a dick. Amazing. That's not the real point of course, the real point is Laurie.


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## past caring (Jan 22, 2014)

'Twas ever thus.....


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## belboid (Jan 22, 2014)

Someone should do something about this!


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## rekil (Jan 22, 2014)

"Ban page 3 cos it objectifies women!"
"I have a porn m8 and you prudes don't! Squeeee!"


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## J Ed (Jan 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> "Ban page 3 cos it objectifies women!"
> "I have a porn m8 and you prudes don't! Squeeee!"



She genuinely believes that Page 3 is for sexists and should be banned immediately for its negative portrayal of women but rape porn should stay legal


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> She genuinely believes that Page 3 is for sexists and should be banned immediately for its negative portrayal of women but rape porn should stay legal




page three is tasteless exploitation because it has no theme. And is in the Sun.

unlike burlesque or art porn. 

thus runs the message


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## revol68 (Jan 22, 2014)

Is that her argument? I've have assumed her argument was that page 3 is worse because it is so everyday, that it doesn't exist in a kind of seperated sphere like porn does and so encourages sexualisation of women in everyday life in the way that porn doesn't. Pretty much how everyone knows people wank but probably best not to do it on the bus.

Not that I think banning page 3 is the pertinent issue facing women today, rather it seems like an easy cause for middle class liberals, not to mention the one dimensional notion of how media and ideology function it implies, as if readers are empty vessels.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

More broadly, the tendency in internet feminism towards embrace of the sex industry (any hostility being received centrally as a denial of the agency of sex workers) combined with a fascination with picking apart the gender politics of mainstream pop culture leads to some interesting contradictions.

So the gender politics of Doctor Who become important objects of inquiry, while to question the gender politics of porn, say, or sado-masochism is to "slutshame", to deny agency, to be prudish and to be dreadfully second wave. A ruthless critique of everything that exists unless someone masturbates to it.

On the page 3 issue, because it straddles both mainstream pop culture and the sex industry, twittersectionals can get pulled in all sorts of odd directions.


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## Brainaddict (Jan 22, 2014)

> *Billy Bragg*,* Wayne Hemingway * and *Nick Hornby* on Being a Bloke.


Just seen this. Imagine accidentally wandering into the room where this was happening. 

No jury in the land would convict you.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> More broadly, the tendency in internet feminism towards embrace of the sex industry (any hostility being received centrally as a denial of the agency of sex workers) combined with a fascination with picking apart the gender politics of mainstream pop culture leads to some interesting contradictions.
> 
> So the gender politics of Doctor Who become important objects of inquiry, while to question the gender politics of porn, say, or sado-masochism is to "slutshame", to deny agency, to be prudish and to be dreadfully second wave. A ruthless critique of everything that exists unless someone masturbates to it.
> 
> On the page 3 issue, because it straddles both mainstream pop culture and the sex industry, twittersectionals can get pulled in all sorts of odd directions.



I think you're all giving LP far too much credit - I think her stance on page 3 is down to one major issue, it's a popular cause with people that she wants to ingratiate herself with, and will give her feminism points.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I think you're all giving LP far too much credit - I think her stance on page 3 is down to one major issue, it's a popular cause with people that she wants to ingratiate herself with, and will give her feminism points.



I'm not talking about LP, but the much wider "sex positive" turn and some of its offshoots. LP just makes the contradictions involved more apparent than most.

As a minor example: there's been no shortage of twittersectionals arguing against anti-page 3 activism on the grounds that it's attacking sex workers. This is consistent with their views on the sex industry (unlike LP) but leaves them in the rather odd position for feminists of defending a national newspaper objectifying women.


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## revol68 (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm not talking about LP, but the much wider "sex positive" turn and some of its offshoots. LP just makes the contradictions involved more apparent than most.



I don't think there is much contradictions tbh. Quite possible to not like the sexualisation of everyday life and yet defend porn and S&M in general within a kind of separate space, but maybe that's just my catholic guilt and cognitive dissonance.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

maybe its just me being chippy but I get the distinct vibe that 'low culture' titillation = bad wheras  art/esoteric porn is empowering and taking ownership, monetizing hotness etc.


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## belboid (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> So the gender politics of Doctor Who become important objects of inquiry, while to question the gender politics of porn, say, or sado-masochism is to "slutshame", to deny agency, to be prudish and to be dreadfully second wave. A ruthless critique of everything that exists unless someone masturbates to it.


I think it's fairly likely some people have masturbated to Doctor Who...


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## TruXta (Jan 22, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I don't think there is much contradictions tbh. Quite possible to not like the sexualisation of everyday life and yet defend porn and S&M in general within a kind of separate space, but maybe that's just my catholic guilt and cognitive dissonance.


Fap Fap Fap


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I don't think there is much contradictions tbh. Quite possible to not like the sexualisation of everyday life and yet defend porn and S&M in general within a kind of separate space, but maybe that's just my catholic guilt and cognitive dissonance.



I'd go with your last sentence there. In fact the notion that porn etc represents a kind of "separate space" beyond criticism or inquiry is a core part of what I was talking about above.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> maybe its just me being chippy but I get the distinct vibe that 'low culture' titillation = bad wheras  art/esoteric porn is empowering and taking ownership, monetizing hotness etc.



There's some element of truth to that, but the main driver is the attitude towards the sex industry.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

belboid said:


> I think it's fairly likely some people have masturbated to Doctor Who...




http://www.whofic.com/


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## Theisticle (Jan 22, 2014)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...t--but-russell-brand-has-a-point-9078393.html

Owen should have saved us the effort of reading and just typed 'VOTE LABOUR' in massive font.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> http://www.whofic.com/



Now you've hit on another layer of contradiction: the gender politics of Dr Who are to be analysed, while Dr Who fanfic is to be uncritically celebrated.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

It's also worth noting the tendency of liberals, sex positive feminists and many leftists to start talking about "choice" when it comes to the sex industry in ways that they would recognise as crude, simplistic and reactionary if the same arguments were made by, say, libertarians in any other context.


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## revol68 (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'd go with your last sentence there. In fact the notion that porn etc represents a kind of "separate space" beyond criticism or inquiry is a core part of what I was talking about above.



I generally think peoples private kinks are there own business, precisely that kind of separate place.

The notion though of the sex industry as above criticism like any other industry is bullshit though.
And yeah the danger for sex positive feminists in their desire to destigmatise sex work and sex in general is they end up nearly white washing the exploitative nature of sex work in a way they wouldn't in other industries. Almost like the inverse of anti porn/sex work feminists who in singling out the exploitative nature of sex work tend to make the general exploitative nature of work disappear.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 22, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I generally think peoples private kinks are there own business, precisely that kind of separate place.



I'm not really particularly interested in whether someone likes getting their arse smacked in the bedroom, as long as they aren't evangelising for it as some kind of emancipatory practice. But, for instance, sado-masochistic porn isn't "private" even in that sense and should be subject to the same sort of analysis as any other type of media. Any attempt to do that however will be met with extreme hostility by sex industry positive types.




			
				 revol68 said:
			
		

> The notion though of the sex industry as above criticism like any other industry is bullshit though.
> And yeah the danger for sex positive feminists in their desire to destigmatise sex work and sex in general is they end up nearly white washing the exploitative nature of sex work in a way they wouldn't in other industries. Almost like the inverse of anti porn/sex work feminists who in singling out the exploitative nature of sex work tend to make the general exploitative nature of work disappear.



I agree with this, although I'd add a corollary. The problem isn't only that the general exploitativeness of work is absent from many sex positive accounts of "sex work", it is also that the specifically exploitative, gendered and invasive nature of "sex work" is glossed over too. Sex work may be work, but (a) that's not a good thing and (b) it's not "just" work.


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## toggle (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's also worth noting the tendency of liberals, sex positive feminists and many leftists to start talking about "choice" when it comes to the sex industry in ways that they would recognise as crude, simplistic and reactionary if the same arguments were made by, say, libertarians in any other context.



probably cause most know shit all about it other than what a few (other) commentators have written. 



revol68 said:


> I generally think peoples private kinks are there own business, precisely that kind of separate place.
> 
> The notion though of the sex industry as above criticism like any other industry is bullshit though.
> And yeah the danger for sex positive feminists in their desire to destigmatise sex work and sex in general is they end up nearly white washing the exploitative nature of sex work in a way they wouldn't in other industries. Almost like the inverse of anti porn/sex work feminists who in singling out the exploitative nature of sex work tend to make the general exploitative nature of work disappear.



This. it's become about fighting the against someone else's position rather than thinking for yourself  jumping on a bandwagon instead of actually finding out enough information to know what you're talking about. It should be possible to discuss exploitation within the sex industry and that it is a product of an unbalanced society, without stigmatising and endangering people in it who are vulnerable. but that needs commentators who want it to be about the discussion, not their byline or bandwagon. or in thre case of campaign groups  their own group's agenda and funding.



Nigel Irritable said:


> I agree with this, although I'd add a corollary. The problem isn't only that the general exploitativeness of work is absent from many sex positive accounts of "sex work", it is also that the specifically exploitative, gendered and invasive nature of "sex work" is glossed over too. Sex work may be work, but (a) that's not a good thing and (b) it's not "just" work.



I've read just about enough on the historical debates to see the analysis that women have often chosen sex work because it was less bad than the alternatives available to them, often because of the limitations on them as women. My feeling is that considering it this way recognises that it is a choice but not necessarily a good choice. IDK, maybee find a middle ground as an answer, I do know the way ti's being discussed atm helps nobody


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## J Ed (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's also worth noting the tendency of liberals, sex positive feminists and many leftists to start talking about "choice" when it comes to the sex industry in ways that they would recognise as crude, simplistic and reactionary if the same arguments were made by, say, libertarians in any other context.



If you asked me to guess where this article came from and I didn't know the source then I would guess Spiked Online.


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## Bakunin (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> page three is tasteless exploitation because it has no theme. And is in the Sun.
> 
> unlike burlesque or art porn.
> 
> thus runs the message



'This isn't lowbrow Murdoch porn...'

'This is M&S middle class porn...'


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> maybe its just me being chippy but I get the distinct vibe that 'low culture' titillation = bad wheras  art/esoteric porn is empowering and taking ownership, monetizing hotness etc.



The fabulous and fragrant James Ferman (head of the BBFC from the early 70's to the late 90's) used to blather on about working class people not being trusted/allowed to watch horror/explotation etc, because it was "bad" for them, whereas a middle-class, university educated person should be allowed to watch that stuff, because they "understood" film and were "cultured".  I think you can also see Jimmy Ferman's "thinking" being applied to porn/erotica too - "tasteful" porn/erotica is OK for educated middle-class types, whereas yer regular porn/page 3 etc is "prole fodder", and should be banned in order to "save" the working class.

My own take on page 3 and so on?  I don't care for it myself (ditto with lad's mags), but that stuff seems to be popular still, so I'm not minded to say "bin/ban!" to it, even if I think it's pretty dumb on a strictly personal level.  As for porn - well, online business means that porn is here to stay, whether people like it or not, and I personally don't have any real issue with 2 fully consenting adults (preferably 21 years old+ for me) being filmed having sex (gonzo stuff I definitely find more problematic, though).  But, y'know, porn ain't ever going to be a substitute for the real thing!


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## Bakunin (Jan 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Now you've hit on another layer of contradiction: the gender politics of Dr Who are to be analysed, while Dr Who fanfic is to be uncritically celebrated.



Can people stop mentioning fanfic? I'm still trying to forget Severus Snape and the Teletubbies.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> The fabulous and fragrant James Ferman (head of the BBFC from the early 70's to the late 90's) used to blather on about working class people not being trusted/allowed to watch horror/explotation etc, because it was "bad" for them, whereas a middle-class, university educated person should be allowed to watch that stuff, because they "understood" film and were "cultured".  I think you can also see Jimmy Ferman's "thinking" being applied to porn/erotica too - "tasteful" porn/erotica is OK for educated middle-class types, whereas yer regular porn/page 3 etc is "prole fodder", and should be banned in order to "save" the working class.
> 
> My own take on page 3 and so on?  I don't care for it myself (ditto with lad's mags), but that stuff seems to be popular still, so I'm not minded to say "bin/ban!" to it, even if I think it's pretty dumb on a strictly personal level.  As for porn - well, online business means that porn is here to stay, whether people like it or not, and I personally don't have any real issue with 2 fully consenting adults (preferably 21 years old+ for me) being filmed having sex (gonzo stuff I definitely find more problematic, though).  But, y'know, porn ain't ever going to be a substitute for the real thing!



personally I find page 3 to be like this. 'oooh she looks good and has no top on' and thats it. There's a point to be made about about the normalisation of having women getting baps out in a mainstream paper and what that says about the casual sexualisation/objectifying of women in general. And yes there is a world of difference between the end of the pier saucy postcard stuff as opposed to hardcore stuff.

Its hard for me to really judge cos I enjoy porn and yet also worry about exploitation and commodification of the body but if a sex worker wants to work then who am I to say nay- I'm no puritan etc. Minefield. Not helped at all by the nagging christian guilt of my upbringing. The flesh is evil etc.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> personally I find page 3 to be like this. 'oooh she looks good and has no top on' and thats it. There's a point to be made about about the normalisation of having women getting baps out in a mainstream paper and what that says about the casual sexualisation/objectifying of women in general. And yes there is a world of difference between the end of the pier saucy postcard stuff as opposed to hardcore stuff.
> 
> Its hard for me to really judge cos I enjoy porn and yet also worry about exploitation and commodification of the body but if a sex worker wants to work then who am I to say nay- I'm no puritan etc. Minefield. Not helped at all by the nagging christian guilt of my upbringing. The flesh is evil etc.



Re porn/sex work - I think it's important to distinguish between women who make an informed, educated choice about entering the porn industry at the right age (21+ at the very least) where they have enough maturity and life experience at that point to deal with the inevitable downsides/crapola/bullshit of the porn industry - and women who really, really should go nowhere near said industry (only 18+, have had difficult/damaged lives, have substance abuse/alcohol issues, have emotional issues etc).

For sex workers - well, I have absolutely no interest/desire in getting involved in that world whatsoever (I find the whole idea a loveless, joyless thing to contemplate), but sex workers derserve full protection of the law, and should be allowed full and free access to help, counselling, assistance to help them leave the sex industry if they so wish etc when they need it. Regardless of the moral arguments of sex work/prostitution etc, the women involved there are human beings and should be treated as such, full stop.  Before I had my extended leave of absence here, I recall at least one Urbanite being involved in the sex work industry/porn industry - it would be interesting/instructive to hear their take on things if they still post here.


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## toggle (Jan 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> If you asked me to guess where this article came from and I didn't know the source then I would guess Spiked Online.



and ignores the reality of how the jobless are treated - because allow escort ads and it will take a week before someone gets sanctioned for not wanting to be an escort.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Can people stop mentioning fanfic? I'm still trying to forget Severus Snape and the Teletubbies.



 that was an image I could have happily gone my whole life without


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> that was an image I could have happily gone my whole life without



Do I dare look this up myself, or is this trademark, patented Mind Bleach material?


----------



## toggle (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> that was an image I could have happily gone my whole life without



I have a lot of those. 

at some point, I'm going to have to post up some of his stranger journeys off into the world of the bizarre.


----------



## toggle (Jan 23, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Do I dare look this up myself, or is this trademark, patented Mind Bleach material?



might i give you a hint here, if bakunin is discussing it, then it is quite likely to require mind bleach.

or somone calling the men in white coats


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

toggle said:


> might i give you a hint here, if bakunin is discussing it, then it is quite likely to require mind bleach.



Heh!  Thanks for the heads up, toggle


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## toggle (Jan 23, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Heh!  Thanks for the heads up, toggle



no problem.


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## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

toggle said:


> and ignores the reality of how the jobless are treated - because allow escort ads and it will take a week before someone gets sanctioned for not wanting to be an escort.



to be honest I don't think so. they are shitheaps but they aren't so fucking stupid as to do that. They can easily afford to make a special category for sex work, not that they will add it.


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## toggle (Jan 23, 2014)

revol68 said:


> to be honest I don't think so. they are shitheaps but they aren't so fucking stupid as to do that. They can easily afford to make a special category for sex work, not that they will add it.


i don't thibnk they would be stupid enough to do that officially, but how often do we hear stories of people being given sanctions that shouldn't happen?


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## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

toggle said:


> i don't thibnk they would be stupid enough to do that officially, but how often do we hear stories of people being given sanctions that shouldn't happen?



yeah but this one would be pure paper fodder, who ever signed off on sanctioning on such grounds would be opening themselves to a shit storm.


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## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

Regarding a  critique of gender roles in stuff like S&M versus Doctor Who, well Doctor Who is about relations between men and women in everyday settings,or in space or another galaxy or time, but y'know what I mean. Sexism is probably more reinforced by a show where the women are all superfluous to much of the action, passengers there to reward the male lead or to be rescued by him, than it is by s&m porn or whatever.

Personally I think the focus on media representation is liberal fluff, much of it being based on a really patronising idea of how ideology works and how social roles are reproduced.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jan 23, 2014)

1) to most of tumblr/twitter feminism, "media representation" is certainly important, so the contradiction when it comes to pornographic media is there regardless of the actual importance of the issue.

2) While I'd agree that Internet identity politics is too focused on the politics of media representation, your formulation above seems to me to swing too far in the other direction. If media representations were incapable of contributing to the creation of and shaping of desires, and played no role in the reproduction of social roles, then for example the entire advertising industry would not exist.

3) I think that it takes a particular kind of deliberate obtuseness not to see that the politics of pornographic media as produced by the actually existing porn industry are radically more misogynist than those common in the (undoubtedly also quite thoroughly sexist) mainstream media. Now which has more practical effect is a more complex question, but for people who accept that the media has some power to want to exclude pornographic media from that is at best incoherent and at worst straightforward special pleading.


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## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> 1) to most of tumblr/twitter feminism, "media representation" is certainly important, so the contradiction when it comes to pornographic media is there regardless of the actual importance of the issue.
> 
> 2) While I'd agree that Internet identity politics is too focused on the politics of media representation, your formulation above seems to me to swing too far in the other direction. If media representations were incapable of contributing to the creation of and shaping of desires, and played no role in the reproduction of social roles, then for example the entire advertising industry would not exist.
> 
> 3) I think that it takes a particular kind of deliberate obtuseness not to see that the politics of pornographic media as produced by the actually existing porn industry are radically more misogynist than those common in the (undoubtedly also quite thoroughly sexist) mainstream media. Now which has more practical effect is a more complex question, but for people who accept that the media has some power to want to exclude pornographic media from that is at best incoherent and at worst straightforward special pleading.



But I'm not aware they do deny misogyny in porn productions, they are pretty clear the majority of porn is saturated in it? Their line is that it shouldn't be inherent in pornography. They also argue that is possible to have s&m and rough role play done and shown in a non misogynistic manner. They aren't interested in a deconstruction of individuals sexual kinks (eg S&M etc) and how it ties into gendered and sexed power dynamics because historically it has been little more than the pathologisation of sexuality and provoked "slut shaming" and deeply divisive rows over how feminists should be having sex. Their perspective is that there is enough shame and guilt about sex and that these only act to further disempower women. Basically you can do what you want in the bedroom because it's escapist fantasy between consenting adults whilst being treated like a gimp by your boss is a completely different matter. 

The sexism in porn is pretty obvious, it is almost a parody, the sexism in everyday tv shows matches much closer to how people actually experience it. You're more likely to be patronised by your manager or co worker than find yourself being cock slapped by 3 guys who were meant to be building your extension and indeed it is the mainstream day today sexism that sustains the sexism of pornography more than pornography sustains everyday sexism. Afterall you have to go look for porn most of the time, whilst things like page 3 and passive female roles are ubiquitous, they are part of the social conversation and landscape in the way your grubby internet history isn't. 

Also I think the argument about removing page 3 is that it is a boycott, consumer pressure as opposed to a state ban which Laurie opposes for things like fantasy rape porn, no matter how distasteful she finds it, so there is no necessary contradiction.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

and saying all that, I do find the fixation on media representation, on deconstructions of this or that tv show or album to be worn out tedious shit that both reflects and perpeuates a collective powerlessness to confront day to day material conditions that uphold womens inequality and has seen them overwhelmingly affected by cuts to services, benefits and public service wage freezes, and that's before we get to how reproductive and "pink collar" work is so poorly paid. 

And like I keep saying the way many feminists (and indeed liberals and lefties in general) talk about the media you imagine they take men and women to be zombies, swallowing sexist ideology and acting it out, this of course misses out how people critically engage with media and also how sexism isn't just something imposed top down but is produced in real social relations and structural power.


----------



## cesare (Jan 23, 2014)

revol68 said:


> and saying all that, I do find the fixation on media representation, on deconstructions of this or that tv show or album to be worn out tedious shit that both reflects and perpeuates a collective powerlessness to confront day to day material conditions that uphold womens inequality and has seen them overwhelmingly affected by cuts to services, benefits and public service wage freezes, and that's before we get to how reproductive and "pink collar" work is so poorly paid.
> 
> And like I keep saying the way many feminists (and indeed liberals and lefties in general) talk about the media you imagine they take men and women to be zombies, swallowing sexist ideology and acting it out, this of course misses out how people critically engage with media and also how sexism isn't just something imposed top down but is produced in real social relations and structural power.


I'd extend "media representation" to networking sites such as twitter, too.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jan 23, 2014)

revol68 said:


> But I'm not aware they do deny misogyny in porn productions, they are pretty clear the majority of porn is saturated in it?



You would think so, but in fact the answer is sometimes, when pressed, and then the tendency is to ignore that acknowledgment and get back to treating criticisms of the porn industry as consisting of a mixture of "slutshaming", anti sex worker prejudice (conflating the worker with the industry is a specialty), prudery and "pathologisation" of the sexuality and "kinks" of individual consumers.

There is also the tendency to insist on arguing about some ideal type of pornography, rather than pornography the actually existing institution produced by an actually existing industry.




			
				revol68 said:
			
		

> Basically you can do what you want in the bedroom because it's escapist fantasy between consenting adults whilst being treated like a gimp by your boss is a completely different matter.



Yes this is the core of their argument. And it's wrong in a number of ways in one sentence. Firstly, people's sex lives behind their bedroom doors are part of their "real" lives and can very often be abusive. Secondly, the bedroom door is not an airtight seal between one part of people's lives and another. Thirdly, these same people are very keen on the idea that every other "escapist fantasy" in the media does actually matter. And fourthly, when it comes to filmed porn, the "escapist fantasy" is someone's job. ie someone is precisely being "treated like a gimp by their boss" so some twitter radical with a libertarian streak when it comes to the sex industry can have an empowering wank.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

> Yes this is the core of their argument. And it's wrong in a number of ways in one sentence. Firstly, people's sex lives behind their bedroom doors are part of their "real" lives and can very often be abusive. Secondly, the bedroom door is not an airtight seal between one part of people's lives and another. Thirdly, these same people are very keen on the idea that every other "escapist fantasy" in the media does actually matter. And fourthly, when it comes to filmed porn, the "escapist fantasy" is someone's job. ie someone is precisely being "treated like a gimp by their boss" so some twitter radical with a libertarian streak when it comes to the sex industry can have an empowering wank.



But the argument isn't that abuse doesn't happen in the bedroom, it's that things like S&M and role play aren't abusive or damaging in themselves when done in a consensual manner. Vanilla sex can be every bit as abusive. The point being that the content of the sex isn't the issue it's the consensual form.

And no it's not airtight, an abusive relationship outside the bedroom probably feeds into it and vice versa but a consentual respectful sex life involved s&m etc doesn't generally flow into actual sadism and masochism in day to day life, most people are able to distinguish role play from reality and don't find themselves referring to their partner as a worthless little worm in the middle of a dinner party because of some weird shit they got up to the night before.

The issue then is are certain forms of sex oppressive and damaging even when done in a consensual and respectful manner and within the wider context of respectful relations loving or otherwise? 

The someones job issue is important and yes I agree this is where a lot of pro sex feminism falls down, you simply can't talk seriously of respectful relations and full consent within such a context. I do think though that this blindspot is due to a desire to throw off the stigma of sex and sex work, not to mention some of the problematic patronising depictions of sex workers as fallen women, needing to be saved. Of course what this ends up doing is ignoring the fact that many women that do end up in the sex industry are in very vulnerable/desperate positions because the stigma around such work means most women (not all) with alternatives wouldn't go near it. 

Have to say though your last line is pretty catholic, afterall "someone is precisely being "treated like a gimp by their boss" so some twitter radical can have a pair of trainers and a mobile phone etc".


----------



## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

I see Richard Seymour (Lenin's Tomb) has fallen foul of the intersectional twitteristas.
http://thecharnelhouse.org/2014/01/23/live-by-intersectionality-die-by-intersectionality/


----------



## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)




----------



## TruXta (Jan 23, 2014)

^^^ that has GOT to be a pisstake.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 23, 2014)

TruXta said:


> ^^^ that has GOT to be a pisstake.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 23, 2014)




----------



## Ole (Jan 24, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I see Richard Seymour (Lenin's Tomb) has fallen foul of the intersectional twitteristas.
> http://thecharnelhouse.org/2014/01/23/live-by-intersectionality-die-by-intersectionality/



The revolutionary leftist politics of wanking. The verbosity of it all. 

Cringiest twats on the Internet.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 24, 2014)

What's an Otherkin? Sounds like some Lord of the Rings shite. Does this relate to the bedroom fantasy stuff? I'm ever so confused.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

cynicaleconomy said:


> What's an Otherkin? Sounds like some Lord of the Rings shite. Does this relate to the bedroom fantasy stuff? I'm ever so confused.


People who believe they're not actually human, but vampires, were-animals and such. Dragons tend to be popular in much the same way that everyone was a king in a past life.


----------



## chilango (Jan 24, 2014)

...and they mean it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

But it's bollocks though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

How can being oppressed coz you think you're a dragon be in any way comparable to class position in society, racism, sexism, homophobia etc.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

I'd hardly call it a political movement tho.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How can being oppressed coz you think you're a dragon be in any way comparable to class position in society, racism, sexism, homophobia etc.


They're all identities I guess, and as such can in the minds of certain people be equally subject to oppression.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 24, 2014)

cynicaleconomy said:


> What's an Otherkin? Sounds like some Lord of the Rings shite. Does this relate to the bedroom fantasy stuff? I'm ever so confused.



Some of the vocab being thrown around by these people i.e. mansplaining, brocialism, otherkin is cringeworthy.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> They're all identities I guess, and as such can in the minds of certain people be equally subject to oppression.


 
But it's not though, it's not like someone calling someone a paki or a kike or something is it or someone denying those people jobs on the basis of their skin colour etc, their kids having reduced opportunities, casual racism in society, scapegoating, racist/homophobic attacks etc, it's someone complaining coz the fact that they think they're a dragon isn't taken seriously. Dragons don't exist ffs it's bollocks and they're either mentally ill and need help or are taking the piss.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But it's not though, it's not like someone calling someone a paki or a kike or something is it or someone denying those people jobs on the basis of their skin colour etc, their kids having reduced opportunities, casual racism in society, scapegoating, racist/homophobic attacks etc, it's someone complaining coz the fact that they think they're a dragon isn't taken seriously. Dragons don't exist ffs it's bollocks and they're either mentally ill and need help or are taking the piss.


I know, I was trying to see it from their perspective, misguided as it is. FWIW I don't think they're either mentally ill or taking the piss (altho some undoubtedly are and do). It's no worse than believing that Jesus loves you. From a rational/logical standpoint that is.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> They're all identities I guess, and as such can in the minds of certain people be equally subject to oppression.


 
They cant though!!

take homophobia, it's possible for two gay men to get viciously attacked in the street, to have people suspecting them of being paedos, to have people refuse to rent rooms to them and not get jobs on the basis of sexuality, to get told in school homosexuality is a sin etc, someone thinking they're a dragon is in no way in the same category coz its a movement that emerged on the internet in the last 20 years.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> They cant though!!
> 
> take homophobia, it's possible for two gay men to get viciously attacked in the street, to have people suspecting them of being paedos, to have people refuse to rent rooms to them and not get jobs on the basis of sexuality, to get told in school homosexuality is a sin etc, someone thinking they're a dragon is in no way in the same category coz its a movement that emerged on the internet in the last 20 years.


 For the last time - I'm not defending them!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> For the last time - I'm not defending them!


 
when was the last time that someone got attacked in the street because of thinking they're a dragon? when was the last time their beliefs about being a dragon stopped them getting a job or people got forced out of their homes and killed etc coz they think they're dragons?
never.

it's made up bullshit on the internet. and if someone is treated badly on that basis it's because of how mental illness is treated in society and millions of other mentally ill people go through the same thing.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> when was the last time that someone got attacked in the street because of thinking they're a dragon? when was the last time their beliefs about being a dragon stopped them getting a job or people got forced out of their homes and killed etc coz they think they're dragons?
> never.
> 
> it's made up bullshit on the internet. and if someone is treated badly on that basis it's because of how mental illness is treated in society and millions of other mentally ill people go through the same thing.



I don't know about never. And I'm not sure I wanna call all otherkin mentally ill either. There are the makings of a truly outrageous religion in this movement. And why does it matter if it the otherkin community started on the internet?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 24, 2014)

chilango said:


> ...and they mean it.


Oh yes, I've seen people having 20 page hissy fits about how oppressed they were by people refusing to accept their identity as dragons (or elves - the other popular otherkin type) - keeping in character throughout.  Quite impressive, if only it weren't on a par with a 4 year old claiming that she's a horse.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> People who believe they're not actually human, but vampires, were-animals and such. Dragons tend to be popular in much the same way that everyone was a king in a past life.


 
Or animals. I looked this up when it was mentioned a while ago on here - my favourite one was some girl who thought she was really a cat and was being oppressed by her parents because they wanted her to take a bath.

TBF that might have been someone taking the piss - it's impossible to tell.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I don't know about never. And I'm not sure I wanna call all otherkin mentally ill either. There are the makings of a truly outrageous religion in this movement. And why does it matter if it the otherkin community started on the internet?


 
what's the religious part of it?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

I used to pretend to be different animals when I was a little kid. Plainly I'm oppressed


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what's the religious part of it?


It's starting to take on some religious aspects - worship of supernatural entities, magic rituals, and of course theres' the communal aspects of it as well.

Found this quote that made me laugh - it's about Tumblr mostly, but still



> There's a sharp division between the activists who believe their ethical and ideological commitments require them to accept to be open to any professed identity — and those who think that in the absence of structural oppression, cisgendered white people claiming to be gay Korean cats aren't just playing fantasy games but also undermining the strength of the movement by taking it to a bizarre conclusion.



edit - link http://gawker.com/5940947/from-othe...o-the-weird-world-of-tumblr-identity-politics


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It's starting to take on some religious aspects - worship of supernatural entities, magic rituals, and of course theres' the communal aspects of it as well.
> 
> Found this quote that made me laugh - it's about Tumbl mostly, but still


 
Supporting a football team can also be a sort of religion though. And people have been attacked for wearing wycombe scarves and being wycombe wanderers fans, they've probably been discriminated against at work etc but there's no intersectional movement about that


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Supporting a football team can also be a sort of religion though.


Not really IMVHO.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Not really IMVHO.


 
Now you're just silencing the voice of wycombe wanderers fans truxta


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Now you're just silencing the voice of wycombe wanderers fans truxta


My boots - on their throats.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 24, 2014)

So lazy furries basically


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> So lazy furries basically


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 24, 2014)




----------



## chilango (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But it's bollocks though.



In fairness I bet they suffer from a fair bit of prejudice.

Cos the thoughts that immediately went through my mind upon reading about "otherkin" were not particularly understanding or tolerant ones .


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 24, 2014)

It's not prejudice to think that a person who believes him/herself to be a dragon is a dickhead who deserves to be laughed out of town. Nor would it be discriminatory to refuse to employ them - From a health and safety POV their very presence represents a fire hazard.


----------



## andysays (Jan 24, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not prejudice to think that a person who believes him/herself to be a dragon is a dickhead who deserves to be laughed out of town. Nor would it be discriminatory to refuse to employ them - *From a health and safety POV their very presence represents a fire hazard*.



Only if you believe them to be correct...


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 24, 2014)

Piece on Rennard. Waits 8 paragraphs to slip in the SWP (who deserve it)  and homogeneous Left bashing. The most Penny article written by Penny. http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01...-shows-westminster-is-dangerously-out-of-step


----------



## fogbat (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Not really IMVHO.


Imaginary friend either way, innit?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Imaginary friend either way, innit?


I dunno about other people, but the fact that I'm a Liverpool supporter doesn't mean I imagine myself a mate of the players.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 24, 2014)

This Rennard case sums up bullshit culture perfectly. How can he apologise if he has insisted he never did anything wrong, for him to apologise would logically mean he did do something wrong and has been lying about it the whole time, something you would imagine mean that would make his return even more untenable.

Except apologies no longer actually mean shit, you don't do it because you mean it, you do it because it's the easiest way out, indeed if you do it right you can milk the redemption angle and talk up how it has helped you grow as a person. Even better remarket your transgression as a "demon" or some other bullshit that removes responsibility and then give yourself some pats on the back for your "battle" to overcome it.

Ughh


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 24, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not prejudice to think that a person who believes him/herself to be a dragon is a dickhead who deserves to be laughed out of town. Nor would it be discriminatory to refuse to employ them - From a health and safety POV their very presence represents a fire hazard.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 24, 2014)

how is it different from having a totem animal?is it cos theres crappy DeviantArt pics as well?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> how is it different from having a totem animal?is it cos theres crappy DeviantArt pics as well?


A totem animal is separate from yourself, like a spirit. These guys think they ARE animals. Or fictive beings from Nintendo games.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 24, 2014)

Ax^ said:


>


 
that's exactly right though isn't it, most of the shitty identity politics crap that goes on is Special Snowflake Syndrome. 

our battlkecry needs to be "YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL".  once we accept that we aren't special, we can start empathising with everyone else, and showing solidarity - because you help each other to help yourself.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

_Nobody is special_ as someone once sang.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's exactly right though isn't it, most of the shitty identity politics crap that goes on is Special Snowflake Syndrome.
> 
> our battlkecry needs to be "YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL".  once we accept that we aren't special, we can start empathising with everyone else, and showing solidarity - because you help each other to help yourself.


Do you empathise with the poor downtrodden Otherkin?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's exactly right though isn't it, most of the shitty identity politics crap that goes on is Special Snowflake Syndrome.
> 
> our battlkecry needs to be "YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL".  once we accept that we aren't special, we can start empathising with everyone else, and showing solidarity - because you help each other to help yourself.



That's pretty much spot on. Nice one.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Do you empathise with the poor downtrodden Otherkin?


 
hell no.  as Marx would have said "fuck those people"


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> hell no.  as Marx would have said "fuck those people"



They're not people though. They're fucking _dragons._


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> hell no.  as Marx would have said "fuck those people"


But but but SOLIDARITY!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 24, 2014)

revol68 said:


> This Rennard case sums up bullshit culture perfectly. How can he apologise if he has insisted he never did anything wrong, for him to apologise would logically mean he did do something wrong and has been lying about it the whole time, something you would imagine mean that would make his return even more untenable.
> 
> Except apologies no longer actually mean shit, you don't do it because you mean it, you do it because it's the easiest way out, indeed if you do it right you can milk the redemption angle and talk up how it has helped you grow as a person. Even better remarket your transgression as a "demon" or some other bullshit that removes responsibility and then give yourself some pats on the back for your "battle" to overcome it.
> 
> Ughh



nobody resigns for the good of the party anymore either. I swear people used to resign when I was younger. Now its all fuck you I'll take you all down with me. ..


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 24, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> They're not people though. They're fucking _dragons._


 
Funny how no-ones really a tapeworm isn't it?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> A totem animal is separate from yourself, like a spirit. These guys think they ARE animals. Or fictive beings from Nintendo games.



The English word "totem" comes from the Ojibway word "oteteman", meaning "he is a brother of mine".


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's exactly right though isn't it, most of the shitty identity politics crap that goes on is Special Snowflake Syndrome.
> 
> our battlkecry needs to be "YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL".  once we accept that we aren't special, we can start empathising with everyone else, and showing solidarity - because you help each other to help yourself.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> _Nobody is special_ as someone once sang.



Whatever happened to the heroes?


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 24, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Funny how no-ones really a tapeworm isn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> The English word "totem" comes from the Ojibway word "oteteman", meaning "he is a brother of mine".


from the oed:





> *Etymology:*  < Ojibwa, or some kindred Algonquin dialect. Mentioned (apparently) in 1609 by Lescarbot as _aoutem_ (in Acadia); by Long 1791 as _totam_, by Henry _a_1776, Cooper 1826, Catlin 1841, as _totem_, by Rev. P. Jones (a member of the Ojibwa) 1861, as _toodaim_, by Francis Assikinak (an Ottawa Indian) as _Ododam_, while the Abbé Thavenel gives the simple form as _ote_, ‘the possessive of which is _otem_’. The initial _t_is explained by some as the final letter of a preceding possessive pronoun. The meaning given by most of these is ‘mark’; by the younger Henry ‘tribe’; Thavenel gives ‘mark’ and ‘family or tribe’, apparently meaning ‘that which marks the family or tribe’. Lescarbot and Long explain it as applied to a familiar spirit


----------



## chilango (Jan 24, 2014)

Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> The English word "totem" comes from the Ojibway word "oteteman", meaning "he is a brother of mine".


And?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 24, 2014)

Ax^ said:


>



Pob strikes again!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 24, 2014)

he aint heavy, he's my non coporeal brother


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 24, 2014)

Ax^ said:


>



Julian Assange as Barney Sumner in the New Order biopic?


----------



## emanymton (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> when was the last time that someone got attacked in the street because of thinking they're a dragon? when was the last time their beliefs about being a dragon stopped them getting a job or people got forced out of their homes and killed etc coz they think they're dragons?
> never.
> 
> it's made up bullshit on the internet. and if someone is treated badly on that basis it's because of how mental illness is treated in society and millions of other mentally ill people go through the same thing.


Well exactly, being black, being guy, being a women are all real things and things over which people are oppressed. Being (or having once been) a dragon or an elf or whatever is not, and you cannot therefore be oppresed because of it. Really believing it is however very possibility a mental illness and you can be operssed because of that. If you tell someone you believe are really a dragon, and they call you a fucking nutter and take the piss, you are not being oppresed for being a dragon, you are being oppresed because you suffer from a delusion.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 24, 2014)

people who follow wicca see the above post


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Well exactly, being black, being guy, being a women are all real things and things over which people are oppressed. Being (or having once been) a dragon or an elf or whatever is not, and you cannot therefore be oppresed because of it. Really believing it is however very possibility a mental illness and you can be operssed because of that. If you tell someone you believe are really a dragon, and they call you a fucking nutter and take the piss, you are not being oppresed for being a dragon, you are being oppresed because you suffer from a delusion.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 24, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Well exactly, being black, being guy, being a women are all real things and things over which people are oppressed. Being (or having once been) a dragon or an elf or whatever is not, and you cannot therefore be oppresed because of it. Really believing it is however very possibility a mental illness and you can be operssed because of that. If you tell someone you believe are really a dragon, *and they call you a fucking nutter and take the piss, you are not being oppresed for being a dragon, you are being oppresed because you suffer from a delusion.*



They are being oppressed by the truth, the best form of oppression and one we should aim to generalise!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Well exactly, being black, being guy, being a women are all real things and things over which people are oppressed. Being (or having once been) a dragon or an elf or whatever is not, and you cannot therefore be oppresed because of it. Really believing it is however very possibility a mental illness and you can be operssed because of that. If you tell someone you believe are really a dragon, and they call you a fucking nutter and take the piss, you are not being oppresed for being a dragon, you are being oppresed because you suffer from a delusion.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>


What's that - Dr Who?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What's that - Dr Who?


the dragons off dragon's den.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 24, 2014)

It's like Ian Hislop on Have I Got News For You


----------



## Belushi (Jan 24, 2014)

As a Welsh I'm both insulted and oppressed by people masquerading as my national beast 

Do I get a spoke on the wheel of oppression now?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Belushi said:


> As a Welsh I'm both insulted and oppressed by people masquerading as my national beast
> 
> Do I get a spoke on the wheel of oppression now?


yes, poking into your kidneys


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 24, 2014)

Don't indulge in taffplay


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 24, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Don't indulge in taffplay


Or if you do make sure you have a tidy, safe word


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Do you empathise with the poor downtrodden Otherkin?



Nope, I'm one of the fuckers treading them down, the pseudo-supernatural douchebags.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> They're not people though. They're fucking _dragons._



No, they're emotionally-disturbed people who have the delusion that they're dragons, elves, werewolves, vampires etc.
Notice how none of them claim to be a gnome or a goblin or an orc, though? I've never seen an otherkin who reckons they're one of Saruman's fighting Uruk-Hai.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> people who follow wicca see the above post



You could say that to followers of any religion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

Belushi said:


> As a Welsh I'm both insulted and oppressed by people masquerading as my national beast
> 
> Do I get a spoke on the wheel of oppression now?



Shouldn't you get multiple ones for being an Aussie Polack Taff?


----------



## miktheword (Jan 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, they're emotionally-disturbed people who have the delusion that they're dragons, elves, werewolves, vampires etc.
> Notice how none of them claim to be a gnome or a goblin or an orc, though? I've never seen an otherkin who reckons they're one of Saruman's fighting Uruk-Hai.





so what's a goblin then?


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You could say that to followers of any religion.


aye but when i imagine a situation where i end up in a discussion with someone who think they share a soul with a dragon on an alternative plane of existence i envision them wearing purple velvet effect clothing and having a  penchant for cats


----------



## emanymton (Jan 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, they're emotionally-disturbed people who have the delusion that they're dragons, elves, werewolves, vampires etc.
> Notice how none of them claim to be a gnome or a goblin or an orc, though? I've never seen an otherkin who reckons they're one of Saruman's fighting Uruk-Hai.


I think it was earlier in this thread were I pondered the idea of trolling an otherkin message board claiming to be an orc.


----------



## Brechin Sprout (Jan 24, 2014)

Because no one with mental health problems can have any positive input to the world. Fuck 'em all. Dragons? Pfffftttt! There's Jesus Christs walking abroad!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

Brechin Sprout said:


> Because no one with mental health problems can have any positive input to the world. Fuck 'em all. Dragons? Pfffftttt! There's Jesus Christs walking abroad!



It's not about contributing, and/or whether you have mental health problems.  it's about expecting everyone else to go along with your delusion because you're a supernatural being!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I think it was earlier in this thread were I pondered the idea of trolling an otherkin message board claiming to be an orc.



They'd probably insta-ban you for being the wrong sort of otherkin.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 25, 2014)

Brechin Sprout said:


> Because no one with mental health problems can have any positive input to the world.


No one has suggested that though. All that has been suggested on here by myself and some others is that it should be seen as a mental health issue and that they suffer oppression on that basis, and only on that basis.



Brechin Sprout said:


> Fuck 'em all. Dragons? Pfffftttt! There's Jesus Christs walking abroad!


This is an interesting point and one I have been thinking about. What they believe is not really any more outlandish than many mainstream religions. 
I think there are two differences though. 

1, It is one thing to believe in the existence of say Angels, and quite another to believe that you are one.

2, I am not sure I can expresses this very well, but more mainstream religion is 'normalized' within our society, and therefore when placed in this context it is much more reasonable for people to hold these beliefs. Not to mention the fact that many do not take it literally.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

Penny finds a giant idiot on the internet and dedicates a great time of writing to explain her short hair. Journalism. http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...scissors-women-short-hair-political-statement


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 25, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Shouldn't you get multiple ones for being an Aussie Polack Taff?



Totting up the disabilities, chronic illnesses, social exclusion and ethnic mix, I get a full wheel.

If it weren't for the bipolar they'd give me a set of steak knives and ornamental fright mask as well.


----------



## rekil (Jan 25, 2014)

Which one of you was this



> I'm virtually bald and I find this discussion of hair and its wider social and societal import deeply offensive and exclusionary. You bloody people are quite happy to indulge in this narcissistic game of calling each other out over minor ideological differences or putative hierarchies of privilege; denouncing each other as cis-centric or crypto-colonialist or whatever the f**k ism is on the menu this week! yet both the original piece and this response make no mention of the hairless.
> Shame on you all.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 25, 2014)

Genuine question - does this actually happen or is this artistic license from lp? 



> total strangers coming up to tell me how much prettier I’d be if I only grew it out. People have done this when I’ve been quietly working on my laptop in cafes,  because I really need to be interrupted in the middle of a deadline to be told I need to work harder on my girl game.



I've always had a thing for women with short hair myself so none of this really makes sense to me.


----------



## belboid (Jan 25, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Genuine question - does this actually happen or is this artistic license from lp?
> 
> I've always had a thing for women with short hair myself so none of this really makes sense to me.


it does sound plausible to me, seen similar things happen quite often.  some peoples cheek is quite astounding.

of course, if le penster did her work at home, or in an office, that wouldn't happen to her


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen. Regularly? I somehow doubt it (or hope not).


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 25, 2014)

belboid said:


> it does sound plausible to me, seen similar things happen quite often.  some peoples cheek is quite astounding.
> 
> of course, if le penster did her work at home, or in an office, that wouldn't happen to her



yes and if women didn't go out in short skirts and get drunk...


----------



## emanymton (Jan 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen. Regularly? I somehow doubt it (or hope not).


I suppose it depends on what you define as regular, once every 12 months is regular.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2014)

It's self obsessed bullshit. Not the bald stuff, that brilliantly takes the mick out of that self-obsession. Here's a pic of me i put in a  national mag that i edit because i think i look great.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 25, 2014)

I've heard of people making much worse comments out of the blue in public situations to female friends. LP makes so much shit up though that even the plausible stuff becomes implausible.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I suppose it depends on what you define as regular, once every 12 months is regular.



True.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

Do gay women only have short hair? That seems to be the implication. 


> To be frank, my hair is a great deal gayer than I am, and sometimes accidentally cashes cheques that my heart and loins don’t deliver, to the extent that I’ve considered letting my hair go out out to Candy Bar to play all by itself. It’s fabulous enough to pull it off. Anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2014)

She plagiarised a poem with her beat a path shit the other day btw.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I've heard of people making much worse comments out of the blue in public situations to female friends. LP makes so much shit up though that even the plausible stuff becomes implausible.


People do feel more entitled to comment on the appearance of women they don't know then men. But in my experience it tends to be women who do it more then men, I am perfectly prepared to be told I am wrong on this by any women on here. however she does say 'strangers' rather than 'men'.

Sad thing is I bet these people think they are actually being complementary/helpful.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  2h
> All love and praise to @*helenlewis* who is handling some copy from me on a Saturday morning. Please send her baby animal gifs and treats.



Problem with the piece? Blame the sub.


----------



## rekil (Jan 25, 2014)

Must be something in the air. A bit of hair related banter from earlier

 .


----------



## J Ed (Jan 25, 2014)

Being privately educated and going to Oxford sounds great. You get to write shit articles about your hair and get paid for it. Meritocracy I am not in you.


----------



## Libertad (Jan 25, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Totting up the disabilities, chronic illnesses, social exclusion and ethnic mix, I get a full wheel.
> 
> If it weren't for the bipolar they'd give me a set of steak knives and ornamental fright mask as well.



 Made me laff that did.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She plagiarised a poem with her beat a path shit the other day btw.



Which poem?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Which poem?


I'm on the case. When i find it, you'll know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Totting up the disabilities, chronic illnesses, social exclusion and ethnic mix, I get a full wheel.
> 
> If it weren't for the bipolar they'd give me a set of steak knives and ornamental fright mask as well.



You can have the steak knives, but only if corks are glued to the tips.






A bit like that, and NO, you CAN'T have an eye patch!


----------



## weepiper (Jan 25, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Genuine question - does this actually happen or is this artistic license from lp?



That's never happened to me and my hair's been Penny-short or shorter for 8 years or so. I have been mistaken for a man a couple of times at work  though and people often assume I'm gay.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 25, 2014)

I _am_ pretty abrasive though.


----------



## rekil (Jan 25, 2014)

Ragged bands of stylists, suffering from much reduced circumstances due to a devastated economy, have been forced into itinerant existences, going street to street, cafe to cafe, offering their unsolicited services willy nilly.  "Scuse me dear, that bob is WAY too angular for your face shape. Care for some side-swept bangs? Tousled textured waves? No? Err, just a trim then? No? Ah ok." Maybe it was one of them.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

> And yet, the amount of male attention I got - from friendly flirting to unwanted hassle - increased enormously. Not because I looked better, but because I looked like I was trying to look more like a girl. Because I was performing femme. Every time I cut it off, I noticed immediately that the amount of street harassment I received, from cat-calls to whispered sexual slurs to gropes and grabs on public transport, dropped to a fraction of what it had been - apart from total strangers coming up to tell me how much prettier I’d be if I only grew it out. People have done this when I’ve been quietly working on my laptop in cafes,  because I really need to be interrupted in the middle of a deadline to be told I need to work harder on my girl game.



It's borderline victim blaming. Want less street harassment? Cut your hair short, men will not approach! Again, all she has done is made broad assumptions based on her own limited (white and middle class) experience without understanding that for some women harassment increases with short hair. Women will most likely face harassment for whatever they decide to wear or do with their hair. 

An incredible lack of self-awareness. Had it been a personal piece I could have maybe let it go, but her assumptions are deeply problematic.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It's borderline victim blaming. Want less street harassment? Cut your hair short, men will not approach! Again, all she has done is made broad assumptions based on her own limited (white and middle class) experience without understanding that for some women harassment increases with short hair. Women will most likely face harassment for whatever they decide to wear or do with their hair.
> 
> An incredible lack of self-awareness. Had it been a personal piece I could have maybe let it go, but her assumptions are deeply problematic.


I think that you've totally misread that bit. It's ridiculous made up shit -  but it's now blaming any victims for anything.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 25, 2014)

> *George Eaton* ‏@*georgeeaton*
> On Fabian panel, @*pennyred* says "I'll probably grit my teeth and vote Labour". #*fab14*



LOL, I'm sure she admitted to voting Labour in 2010 after originally claiming she'd vote Lib Dem. Radical.


----------



## rekil (Jan 25, 2014)

She's a autonomist!


----------



## toggle (Jan 25, 2014)

emanymton said:


> People do feel more entitled to comment on the appearance of women they don't know then men. But in my experience it tends to be women who do it more then men, I am perfectly prepared to be told I am wrong on this by any women on here. however she does say 'strangers' rather than 'men'.
> 
> Sad thing is I bet these people think they are actually being complementary/helpful.




I suggest you have a look at everydaysexism if you still have doubt on whether people feel entitled to comment on women's appearance. 



 the majority of comments telling women their priority should be in becoming more pleasing to the eye is from men. few women playing idiot games, a few old baggages that mostly won't know better. reckon it's the latter who think they are being helpful. and yes, that does include suggestions that on'es allure would be improved by following closer to the ideals of femininity. 

but mostly men. or at least it was before i got too fat for me to be worth getting anything other than reminders. I'm fat, really, did you think I'd forgotten i brought my bum with me this morning?

and her advice? nah. I'd go for the hat and earphones if i want to be left alone to work. I'm actually imagining her deciding to work in the middle of a busy cafe, doing the postures of attention* seeking until someone comments so she doesn't fall off her chair. 

* think madonna's vogue video. with added leg crossing. 



but i'de suspect that madamme's problem with comments is that she's fucking looking for them.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 25, 2014)

toggle said:


> but i'de suspect that madamme's problem with comments is that she's fucking looking for them.



Perish the thought...






'I'd just like to stand in the busiest possible place to say that I really don't want any attention. Obviously, as an Oxbridge graduate, feminist icon and voice of an entire generation I also need my solitude. So, I'm going to stand here and say this as loudly and often as is humanly possible in the hope that you'll all stop noticing my very existence.'

'As you were, peasants...'


----------



## revol68 (Jan 25, 2014)

I wish Penny would grow her hair out, my contempt for her politics is always offset by the fact I think she has really good hair.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 25, 2014)

toggle said:


> I suggest you have a look at everydaysexism if you still have doubt on whether people feel entitled to comment on women's appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry my fault you are right if course, I wasn't really thinking about the sort of harassment women tend to get from men. But the more' polite' sort. 'You're really pretty but you would like better if you wore you hair like this...' sort of thing.


----------



## The Pale King (Jan 25, 2014)

"If I were really to stoop to the level of the original piece, I’d have to reassure readers that from personal experience, this sort of warning is there to be ignored. My own “game” hasn’t suffered at all from having short hair, and it’s a really good way of filtering out the douchecanoes. Neo-misogynists tend not to want to sleep with me, date me or wife me up however I wear my hair, because after five minutes of conversation it tends to transpire that I’m precisely the sort of mouthy, ambitious, slutty feminist banshee who haunts their nightmares, but if I keep my hair short we tend to waste less of each other’s time. If you've a ladyboner for sexist schmuckweasels, short hair isn't going to help, although they might let you administer a disappointing hand-job."

Douchecanoes?

Neo-misogynists?

Schmuckweasels?

...time to get out of Brooklyn.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 25, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> ...time to get out of Brooklyn.



I wish she would stay there, or somewhere with no internet access


----------



## Favelado (Jan 25, 2014)

Brooklyn, East London, Berlin. The same people in the same bars saying the same things.


----------



## rekil (Jan 25, 2014)

Dunno why she doesn't go to a library. Even if she has a deadline and any old last minute shit will do, maybe she'd find something to write about other than herself.

There are some real loons in the comments of that article tbf.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 26, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "If I were really to stoop to the level of the original piece, I’d have to reassure readers that from personal experience, this sort of warning is there to be ignored. My own “game” hasn’t suffered at all from having short hair, and it’s a really good way of filtering out the douchecanoes. Neo-misogynists tend not to want to sleep with me, date me or wife me up however I wear my hair, because after five minutes of conversation it tends to transpire that I’m precisely the sort of mouthy, ambitious, slutty feminist banshee who haunts their nightmares, but if I keep my hair short we tend to waste less of each other’s time. If you've a ladyboner for sexist schmuckweasels, short hair isn't going to help, although they might let you administer a disappointing hand-job."
> 
> Douchecanoes?
> 
> ...


Not to mention 'wife me up' and 'ladyboner'.

It's like an updated version of PC Bingo for the 21st Century


----------



## revol68 (Jan 26, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Brooklyn, East London, Berlin. The same people in the same bars saying the same things.



you don't know how to spell cunts.


----------



## rekil (Jan 26, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "If I were really to stoop to the level of the original piece, I’d have to reassure readers that from personal experience, this sort of warning is there to be ignored. My own “game” hasn’t suffered at all from having short hair, and it’s a really good way of filtering out the douchecanoes. Neo-misogynists tend not to want to sleep with me, date me or wife me up however I wear my hair, because after five minutes of conversation it tends to transpire that I’m precisely the sort of mouthy, ambitious, slutty feminist *banshee* who haunts their nightmares, but if I keep my hair short we tend to waste less of each other’s time. If you've a ladyboner for sexist schmuckweasels, short hair isn't going to help, although they might let you administer a disappointing hand-job."
> 
> Douchecanoes?
> 
> ...





> The banshee may also appear in a variety of other forms, such as that of a hooded crow, stoat, hare and weasel.


A stoat eh?



Spoiler







(worth the repost)


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> There are some real loons in the comments of that article tbf.



Anyone who cares enough about such an article to comment on it is a loon by definition.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Anyone who cares enough about such an article to comment on it is a loon by definition.


You calling me a loon?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 26, 2014)

Do we reckon we could persuade twitter intersectionalists that banshee is the anti-Irish racism? 

Be amusing to see Penny get the SEYMOUR! treatment.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

emanymton said:


> You calling me a loon?



We're all loons here.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Do we reckon we could persuade twitter intersectionalists that banshee is the anti-Irish racism?



Yes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Brooklyn, East London, Berlin. The same people in the same bars saying the same things.



You left out Prague, Barca and Milan.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Do we reckon we could persuade twitter intersectionalists that banshee is the anti-Irish racism?
> 
> Be amusing to see Penny get the SEYMOUR! treatment.



Oh come on, you *know* LP would body-swerve that by claiming Irish heritage!!


----------



## Belushi (Jan 26, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Do we reckon we could persuade twitter intersectionalists that banshee is the anti-Irish racism?
> 
> Be amusing to see Penny get the SEYMOUR! treatment.



It is also both sexist and ageist


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh come on, you *know* LP would body-swerve that by claiming Irish heritage!!



I can claim Irish heritage, giving me the full wheel AND the ornamental hubcaps with pictures of Michael Collins on them.

Excellent.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You left out Prague, Barca and Milan.



I think the real hipster axis is operating out of the three I mentioned. Milan, for example, is twat-head fashion people but not hipster commentators.

I've some horrible pedantry for you too, although you might even enjoy it such is the nature of the site. Barna is the abbreviation of the city of Barcelona and Barça is the football team. As for barca, I don't think Laurie spends _that_ much time on boats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I think the real hipster axis is operating out of the three I mentioned. Milan, for example, is twat-head fashion people but not hipster commentators.
> 
> I've some horrible pedantry for you too, although you might even enjoy it such is the nature of the site. Barna is the abbreviation of the city of Barcelona and Barça is the football team.



I tend to think of it as "that place I usually only saw at night". 



> As for barca, I don't think Laurie spends _that_ much time on boats.



Oh, I dunno.
Mind you, she looks more of a sloop fan, to me.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh, I dunno.
> Mind you, she looks more of a sloop fan, to me.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh come on, you *know* LP would body-swerve that by claiming Irish heritage!!



Yeah but if we could get a proper Irishist, who lives in Ireland, or a first gen immigrant to do it then I reckon she'd have to check her British-assimilated privilege and defer to them.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah but if we could get a proper Irishist, who lives in Ireland, or a first gen immigrant to do it then I reckon she'd have to check her British-assimilated privilege and defer to them.



I'm sure butchersapron is dusting off his leprechaun costume even as we speak.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I'm sure butchersapron is dusting off his leprechaun costume even as we speak.



With you saying that, I'm sure he'll be polishing his shillelagh, too!


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> With you saying that, I'm sure he'll be polishing his shillelagh, too!



Posts about angry folk of Irish extraction are offensive stereotyping, IMHO.

I'm so angry that I'm now going to finish my whiskey, go outside and punch someone.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 26, 2014)

Seem the most relevant place to put this

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/jan/26/working-class-hero-posh-britain-public-school

Interesting statistic.


> even the _Daily Mail_ acknowledged it in 2010, citing an article in the now defunct music magazine, _The Word_, which calculated that more than 60% of that year's successful pop and rock acts were former public school pupils compared with just 1% 20 years ago.



I will leave it up to others to comment on the irony of it appearing in the Guardian. 

Opps


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Interesting statistic.



Very.  Julie Burchill writes about this tendency in journalism, she reckons the days when w-c people like her could make a living by freelancing in the national press are over.  Mainly because they don't pay enough to make it viable for anyone without a private income.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> With you saying that, I'm sure he'll be polishing his shillelagh, too!



Ah, so that's why he wears glasses.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Ah, so that's why he wears glasses.



Boom-tish!!!!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Very.  Julie Burchill writes about this tendency in journalism, she reckons the days when w-c people like her could make a living by freelancing in the national press are over.  Mainly because they don't pay enough to make it viable for anyone without a private income.


 
of course, any system that prevents another Julie Burchill from happening could be said to be at least partially successful.


----------



## toggle (Jan 28, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Perish the thought...
> 
> 
> 'I'd just like to stand in the busiest possible place to say that I really don't want any attention. Obviously, as an Oxbridge graduate, feminist icon and voice of an entire generation I also need my solitude. So, I'm going to stand here and say this as loudly and often as is humanly possible in the hope that you'll all stop noticing my very existence.'
> ...




apparently being criticized for this article is giving the poor dear a panic attack. that will be a panic attack during which she strangely appears to be able to lucidly tweet drivel about how hard done by she is. twitterati are leaping to the poor dear's rescue against all the nasty minority of women who for some unknown reason, take objection to Laurie completely ignoring their experiences, apart from the times she speaks on their behalf. 

I'm just all confused here.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> of course, any system that prevents another Julie Burchill from happening could be said to be at least partially successful.



Like her or not, she's one of the very few obviously genuine w-c voices in the cacaphony of _haute bourgeois _mithering that constitutes our national press.  I suspect that many people would be tempted to behave like her in that kind of company.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> apparently being criticized for this article is giving the poor dear a panic attack. that will be a panic attack during which she strangely appears to be able to lucidly tweet drivel about how hard done by she is. twitterati are leaping to the poor dear's rescue against all the nasty minority of women who for some unknown reason, take objection to Laurie completely ignoring their experiences, apart from the times she speaks on their behalf.
> 
> I'm just all confused here.


----------



## benedict (Jan 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> apparently being criticized for this article is giving the poor dear a panic attack. that will be a panic attack during which she strangely appears to be able to lucidly tweet drivel about how hard done by she is. twitterati are leaping to the poor dear's rescue against all the nasty minority of women who for some unknown reason, take objection to Laurie completely ignoring their experiences, apart from the times she speaks on their behalf.
> 
> I'm just all confused here.



Bah! I bet she's loving the attention. It's The Laurie Penny Show. Same as always.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 28, 2014)

Helen Lewis: "I feel for L, because god knows she tries to take on board criticism. More than any other writer I know."

Helen Lewis there, admitting she doesn't know any writers.

I can't think of any occasion she's taken on board criticism. I've seen her drop herself in the shit and panic her way out of it on occasion, but reflection and understanding of legitimate criticism? Nope. And yeah, it's all about her. Like the hair article, like every other article.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 28, 2014)

Jesus, 



> *Padraig Reidy* ‏@*mePadraigReidy*
> Is Laurie Penny being harassed because of a piece about her haircut? Is that happening?



https://twitter.com/mePadraigReidy/status/427926317237944320

The backslapping and mockery by them is really gross. 



> *Helen Lewis* ‏@*helenlewis*  10h
> @*Okwonga* @*vieux_jeu* @*MochineGun* Yep. Find me one male commissioning ed who commissions as diverse a range of feminist voices as me.



LOL. Aren't most of them Twitter friends? 

It's weird how people like Lewis get called out on their bullshit and suddenly she tweets that WoC can email her pitches. 

Seriously, talk about playing the victims in this debate.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 28, 2014)

The man who just read came round to read the gas meter found my short hair so abrasive and scarily anti-feminine that he told me I looked lovely.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 28, 2014)

benedict said:


> Bah! I bet she's loving the attention. It's The Laurie Penny Show. Same as always.



I think Freud called it repetition-compulsion.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 28, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> The man who just read came round to read the gas meter found my short hair so abrasive and scarily anti-feminine that he told me I looked lovely.



Patriarchy personified, handing down compliments for you to giddily accept


----------



## Combustible (Jan 28, 2014)

S☼I said:


> I can't think of any occasion she's taken on board criticism. I've seen her drop herself in the shit and panic her way out of it on occasion, but reflection and understanding of legitimate criticism? Nope. And yeah, it's all about her. Like the hair article, like every other article.



Well I wouldn't necessarily call it legitimate criticism but she has been perfectly willing to apologise and seek absolution in the past if the person who disagrees with her has a particular skin colour. Maybe she should take her own advice.



> In her piece, Mensch singled me out for criticism because this week, after getting into a short debate with several black women on Twitter over the appropriate way to respond to racism, I accepted that they might know rather more than me about it, and apologised. The idea that somebody might change their mind based on new, better information, rather than "defending their position" come what may, is against the usual rules of the conservative commentariat. It's completely normal, however, in the world of blogs and forums where I grew up as a writer. Now it's entered the mainstream, everyone's claiming ignorance in a way that makes me suspect they just don't want to know.





> ... it's not all about you. Nobody's trying to shut you up – you both, after all, have large platforms. Telling someone to "check their privilege" isn't the same as censoring or silencing, but to people who aren't often introduced to the concept that they might be wrong, it can sometimes feel that way. When someone asks you to check your privilege, it doesn't mean you should stop talking – it means you should start listening, and sometimes that involves giving the other person in the room a chance to speak. That's what often upsets people most about the whole idea. It's about who gets to speak, and who has to listen, and social media is changing those rules.



Once you go down the intersectional road of uncritically accepting criticism because it comes from a POC/WOC you can't suddenly change your mind because you think the criticism is ridiculous. If a WOC says that you are erasing their experience (whatever that means), then you are. You can't even claim that your article has nothing really to do with race because if a POC says it does then it does. And it follows that if they say you are wrong then you are. And if you disagree with them then you are silencing them and not giving them room to speak.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 28, 2014)

The flip-side of her shutting up and uncritically accepting what say a black person says to her is that some like say me (a white male) cannot criticse her - in fact i cannot speak to anyone but those exactly like me. It effectively shuts down my voice and debates i may have with people from different backgrounds and cultures and replaces it with her voice. (This doesn't just happen in this instance, it can happen along any of the axes these people impose). In the name of openness to other ideas openness and other ideas are shut down.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 28, 2014)

you get a type of weird racism in how some people who buy into this theory talk about others tho ... "oh, i'm in a room full of brown people so they'll probably be left wing" lolwut?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 28, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Like her or not, she's one of the very few obviously genuine w-c voices in the cacaphony of _haute bourgeois _mithering that constitutes our national press.  I suspect that many people would be tempted to behave like her in that kind of company.


 
you know, that's a good point that i hadn't considered.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> you know, that's a good point that i hadn't considered.



Not that she doesn't sometimes camp it up for their benefit mind.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 28, 2014)

It would be interesting to look at the correlation between people growing up in mostly white areas and adopting intersectionality.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It would be interesting to look at the correlation between people growing up in mostly white areas and adopting intersectionality.



You could publish the results in _Annals of the Bleeding Obvious._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 28, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You could publish the results in _Annals of the Bleeding Obvious._



Please never again elide into a single post the words ‘annals’ and ‘bleeding’ kthxbai


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 28, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Please never again elide into a single post the words ‘annals’ and ‘bleeding’ kthxbai


----------



## Brechin Sprout (Jan 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It would be interesting to look at the correlation between people growing up in mostly white areas and adopting intersectionality.


It would be interesting to look at the correlation between people growing up in mostly white areas and adopting xenophobia and racism.


----------



## Ole (Jan 28, 2014)

From a bit further up on the page:



> *Helen Lewis* ‏@*helenlewis* 10h
> @*Okwonga*@*vieux_jeu*@*MochineGun* Yep. Find me one male commissioning ed who commissions as diverse a range of feminist voices as me



I don't know the context in which this was said; but, although I don't typically read the New Statesman, I don't recall seeing a Marxist/materialist/socialist feminist piece in it recently...feel free to point out if I am wrong anyone but if I'm right - what sort of 'diversity' is that? 

Surely she's at least claiming to have aired a diverse range of feminist ideas.



Combustible said:


> Well I wouldn't necessarily call it legitimate criticism but she has been perfectly willing to apologise and seek absolution in the past if the person who disagrees with her has a particular skin colour. Maybe she should take her own advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's just blog/Internet nonsense that no-one can take seriously in the real world except for inside insulated gatherings of these loons. On some level most of them have to know it. Their school of thought literally advocates abandoning reason and debate. Even religious fundamentalists know not to go this far when propagating amongst their faithful. No-one would listen.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> I don't know the context in which this was said; but, although I don't typically read the New Statesman, I don't recall seeing a Marxist/materialist/socialist feminist piece in it recently...feel free to point out if I am wrong anyone but if I'm right - what sort of 'diversity' is that?
> 
> Surely she's at least claiming to have aired a diverse range of feminist ideas.



I don't typically read the New Statesman either, but I suspect that what she means is not that they air a wide range of opinion, but that they air opinion and ideas from an (allegedly) "diverse" group of individuals. 

The fact that none of them hold Marxist/materialist/socialist feminist opinions is merely a coincidence...


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's self obsessed bullshit. Not the bald stuff, that brilliantly takes the mick out of that self-obsession. Here's a pic of me i put in a  national mag that i edit because i think i look great.



I always knew you'd look like a twat, butchers, and I was right. Full kit wanker.












doesn't david weatherall look lovely.


----------



## rekil (Jan 29, 2014)

https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/428300950390857728


> 12 Years a Slave drove the point home. the privileged (whites/straights/menfolk) MUST be allowed to fight for change. not just the oppressed


She should do more fillum reviews like this.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/428300950390857728
> 
> She should do more fillum reviews like this.


 
"allowed" by who?
and who says they are privileged


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/428300950390857728
> 
> She should do more fillum reviews like this.



Is this the right time to say "Check your privilege"?  Anyone?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Is this the right time to say "Check your privilege"?  Anyone?


 
there's never been a better time to check your privilege


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's never been a better time to check your privilege



Do we get charged excess baggage for that?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's never been a better time to check your privilege



I'm checking my privilege as I type, and every morning wake up to this little number to remind myself that privilege must be checked always:


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Do we get charged excess baggage for that?


 
a discount for each spoke on the wheel


----------



## J Ed (Jan 29, 2014)

Has anyone monetised checking your privilege yet? I'm thinking about a buying indulges type set up.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 29, 2014)

Had a salacious thought about raceplay? Ever wrote an article about your own hairstyle that claimed to speak on behalf of women as a whole and thereby inadvertently marginalised JoCs, WoCs or OoCs? Do you think that you know better than a sex worker who thinks the DWP should sanction benefit claimants for refusing to work in brothels? It's time to officially check your privilege, only 9.99 with a subscription to the New Statesman! But wait there's more, buy now and receive a framed copy of Laurie Penny's hit poem Saudade!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Do you think that you know better than a sex worker who thinks the DWP should sanction benefit claimants for refusing to work in brothels?


 
yuk.  did that really happen?


----------



## J Ed (Jan 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> yuk.  did that really happen?



http://internationalsocialistnetwor...stress-magpie-hey-job-centre-sex-work-is-work - it would be the consequence of the DWP listing sex work, as this person thinks it should


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Had a salacious thought about raceplay? Ever wrote an article about your own hairstyle that claimed to speak on behalf of women as a whole and thereby inadvertently marginalised JoCs, WoCs or OoCs? Do you think that you know better than a sex worker who thinks the DWP should sanction benefit claimants for refusing to work in brothels? It's time to officially check your privilege, only 9.99 with a subscription to the New Statesman! But wait there's more, buy now and receive a framed copy of Laurie Penny's hit poem Saudade!


 
what are jocs and oocs? do i need to check my privilege again?


----------



## J Ed (Jan 29, 2014)

Journalists of _Color and _Otherkins of _Color. _I may have made the second one up and also yes.


----------



## articul8 (Jan 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Has anyone monetised checking your privilege yet? I'm thinking about a buying indulges type set up.


 say three "Hail Laurie's" and you get remission


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what are jocs and oocs? do i need to check my privilege again?


If my memory does not fail me, JoCs are “journalists of color”, and I believe OoCs stands for “organizers of color”.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> If my memory does not fail me, JoCs are “journalists of color”, and I believe OoCs stands for “organizers of color”.


 
organisers of what?

Im an admin assistant. Does that mean I'm an organiser?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I may have made the second one up and also yes.


----------



## treelover (Jan 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, they're emotionally-disturbed people who have the delusion that they're dragons, elves, werewolves, vampires etc.
> Notice how none of them claim to be a gnome or a goblin or an orc, though? I've never seen an otherkin who reckons they're one of Saruman's fighting Uruk-Hai.



It's like reincarnation and its adherents:, people always declare they were an Egyptian Princess or a medieval knight in a past life, never a slave or a serf, which if such a process existed would be more likely.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> organisers of what?


As in, ‘labor organizers’, etc.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> As in, ‘labor organizers’, etc.


 
the workers will move when given a lead  that sort of thing?


----------



## treelover (Jan 29, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It's borderline victim blaming. Want less street harassment? Cut your hair short, men will not approach! Again, all she has done is made broad assumptions based on her own limited (white and middle class) experience without understanding that for some women harassment increases with short hair. Women will most likely face harassment for whatever they decide to wear or do with their hair.
> 
> An incredible lack of self-awareness. Had it been a personal piece I could have maybe let it go, but her assumptions are deeply problematic.




The only time I spent some time in a room with LP along with many others, I saw nothing at all like the behaviour mentioned above, in fact she just hovered about, ignored, taking notes.


----------



## treelover (Jan 29, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "If I were really to stoop to the level of the original piece, I’d have to reassure readers that from personal experience, this sort of warning is there to be ignored. My own “game” hasn’t suffered at all from having short hair, and it’s a really good way of filtering out the douchecanoes. Neo-misogynists tend not to want to sleep with me, date me or wife me up however I wear my hair, because after five minutes of conversation it tends to transpire that I’m precisely the sort of mouthy, ambitious, slutty feminist banshee who haunts their nightmares, but if I keep my hair short we tend to waste less of each other’s time. If you've a ladyboner for sexist schmuckweasels, short hair isn't going to help, although they might let you administer a disappointing hand-job."
> 
> Douchecanoes?
> 
> ...




She definitely has aspirations to work over the water, sounding more like Elaine Showwalter or Camille Paglia, maybe she thinks its time they moved on for her...


----------



## rekil (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> "allowed" by who?
> and who says they are privileged


All white straight men irl ever.








frogwoman said:


> organisers of what?
> 
> Im an admin assistant. Does that mean I'm an organiser?


I was in a meeting this morning with local councillors, engineers and the like about some area development. Is that #activism? The only time intersectionality came up was about the possibility of linking two streets by using carparks owned by Tescos and the bank. (It was a no)


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's never been a better time to check your privilege



It's the duty of all men to check their privilege every morning. There are few things more terrifying than finding a lump.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> All white straight men irl ever.








A forced agricultural labourer in Belarus guiltily ponders his white, straight, cis male privilege.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> A forced agricultural labourer in Belarus guiltily ponders his white, straight, cis male privilege.



And is that a _straight cig _he's smoking? Heteronormative twat.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Im an admin assistant. Does that mean I'm an organiser?



Do you have your own bullhorn?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> All white straight men irl ever.



Pretty sure he's pulling her hair in order to make her smile.


----------



## rekil (Jan 29, 2014)

Tats on fingers are a little bit patriarchal aggression signifier.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Tats on fingers are a little bit patriarchical aggression signifier.


----------



## rekil (Jan 29, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Pretty sure he's pulling her hair in order to make her smile.


"The implication."


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> "The implication."


You're misunderstanding me, brocialist


----------



## treelover (Jan 29, 2014)

> The _Mail_ followed up that feature with one headlined "From cricket to the catwalk to Westminster, public school accents are back: We reveal Britain's 50 most powerful posh people under 30." They included: actors Ben Barnes (educated at King's College School), Robert Pattinson (Harrodian School in west London) and Emma Watson (Oxford's Dragon School and Headington School); comedian Jack Whitehall (Marlborough College), model Poppy Delevingne ("Bedales-educated with royal connections"), playwright Polly Stenham (attended Wycombe Abbey and Rugby) and pop stars, Florence Welch (Alleyn's School in south-east London) and Marcus Mumford and Ben Lovett from Mumford & Sons (both educated at King's College School, Wimbledon).
> To that privileged list you can now add successful young British actors including Harrow-schooled Benedict Cumberbatch and old Etonians Damian Lewis and Tom Hiddleston, pop singer Laura Marling and the newest supermodel, Cara Delevingne (Poppy's sister), all products of expensive public schools. Likewise, more established stars such as Chris Martin of Coldplay (Sherborne School, Dorset) and James Blunt – real name James Hillier Blount – Old Harrovian and former member of the Life Guards.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/jan/26/working-class-hero-posh-britain-public-school
> ...



I really didn't know it had got that bad, 'James Hillier Blount' for Gods Sake!

goes off to see if Laura is on the list.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

these acronyms - brocialism, mansplaining etc, are so cringeworthy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 29, 2014)

quite like fauxcialist though


----------



## belboid (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> these acronyms - brocialism, mansplaining etc, are so cringeworthy.


they're not acronyms, they're neologisms [/pedant]


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 29, 2014)

portmanteau words actually


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 29, 2014)

I was reading something about the global 68 this morning (whilst england were being thrashed around the ground by aus) and this jumped out at me:



> In the US, despite police and FBI terror against the BPP, thousands of people converged on Philadelphia for the RPCC.  In the midst of the global uprising of 1968, the Panthers were best positioned (as the most oppressed in what Che Guevara called “the belly of the beast”) _to articulate universal aspirations_ to transform the entire world system. Delegates from local black groups and from an array of organizations — the American Indian Movement, the Brown Berets, the Young Lords, I Wor Keun (an Asian-American group), Students for a Democratic Society (the national student organization with a membership of at least 30,000), the newly formed Gay Liberation Front and many feminist groups — all regarded the BPP as their inspiration and vanguard. This extraordinary alliance constituted the RPCC, and they were able to unify and develop their future direction.



(emphasis mine).

Think abut how that way of dealing with difference (of experience, of background, of culture and so on) was dealt with here. They weren't seen as directly competitive, as one blocking out another - they were seen as leading to a situation where the lessons could be universalised (leaving aside the idea of a single organisation being the embodiment of this). Compare to today, where the actually privileged dole out the oppression franchise like 4th international trots and saying _here fight and squabble, fight and squabble, compete, don't recognise each other or your conditions, fight and squabble. _Can you imagine their response to something like this (in fact i think they would shit it and they know they would which is why they have partly adopted all this crap):



Some info on the above.



> *In Chicago, you formed the first Rainbow Coalition with the Young Lords and the Young Patriots Organization. Was this controversial in the Black Panther Party? I don’t think it could have been easy for Black Radicals to accept working with whites who wore the Confederate Flag on their uniforms.*
> 
> 
> First of all, the Patriots’ leader William “Preacherman” Fesperman was one of the best human beings I have ever met. He was originally from North Carolina before he moved to Chicago. However, many of the Panthers left the group when we built alliances. Some didn’t like the Patriots, some just didn’t like white people in general. They were heavy into nationalism. To tell the truth, it was a necessary purging, except for these niggers took themselves out of the organization. The Rainbow Coalition was just a code word for class struggle.
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> these acronyms - brocialism, mansplaining etc, are so cringeworthy.





belboid said:


> they're not acronyms, they're neologisms [/pedant]





DotCommunist said:


> portmanteau words actually



The words given in example are both a neologism and a portmanteau, but not an acronym. A word such as ‘yuppie’, for instance, could be considered both a neologism and an acronym.


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Is this the right time to say "Check your privilege"?  Anyone?





frogwoman said:


> there's never been a better time to check your privilege



That suggests there may occasionally be a time when it's not the right time, but in fact, it's *always* the right time to say "check your privilege"

If in doubt, shout it out!


----------



## belboid (Jan 29, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The words given in example are both a neologism and a portmanteau, but not an acronym. A word such as ‘yuppie’, for instance, could be considered both a neologism and an acronym.


indeed, all portmanteaus are, pretty much by definition, also neologisms


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 29, 2014)

belboid said:


> indeed, all portmanteaus are, pretty much by definition, also neologisms


...Until they're _a bit old_. All words are essentially born neologisms, much as all frogs once were tadpoles!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 29, 2014)

i'll just least this here.

http://www.newstatesman.com/voices/2014/01/dangers-public-shaming-mob-justice-and-scolding-internet


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 29, 2014)

Will read that later, but i have to say, i've been waiting until the first of these people to jump on the idea that this behavior is mob behavior as part of their own calling out strategy. It had to happen.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 29, 2014)

down with mob rule, up with people-led democratic decision making!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 29, 2014)

"*I don’t think it could have been easy for Black Radicals to accept working with whites who wore the Confederate Flag on their uniforms"
*
Imagine if they'd been doing quenelles*.*


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> down with mob rule, up with people-led democratic decision making!


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Will read that later, but i have to say, i've been waiting until the first of these people to jump on the idea that this behavior is mob behavior as part of their own calling out strategy. It had to happen.



I'm not sure it's entirely new, though maybe it's the first time it's been spelt out quite so explicitly.

Basically they're saying, when we criticise someone for their opinion or behaviour it's a valid call-out (because of our well-educated understanding of the ishoos) but when anyone does it to us it's a bunch of ignorant yobs indulging in mob behaviour and criticising their betters...


----------



## belboid (Jan 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure it's entirely new, though maybe it's the first time it's been spelt out quite so explicitly.
> 
> Basically they're saying, when we criticise someone for their opinion or behaviour it's a valid call-out (because of our well-educated understanding of the ishoos) but when anyone does it to us it's a bunch of ignorant yobs indulging in mob behaviour and criticising their betters...


it doesn't say anything like that. indeed, that is the kind of argument it is arguing against


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure it's entirely new, though maybe it's the first time it's been spelt out quite so explicitly.
> 
> Basically they're saying, when we criticise someone for their opinion or behaviour it's a valid call-out (because of our well-educated understanding of the ishoos) but when anyone does it to us it's a bunch of ignorant yobs indulging in mob behaviour and criticising their betters...


I wasn't suggesting that this article was, rather that one of people we mention on this thread will/would do so at some point - quite cynically.


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2014)

belboid said:


> it doesn't say anything like that. indeed, that is the kind of argument it is arguing against



Well it's ostensibly saying that calling people out on the internet is bad "public shaming, mob justice and scolding", but there's a certain irony in that being published in the New Statesman, home of call-outs of ignorant yobs based on the author's purported well-educated understanding of the ishoos, don't you think?

I'm not accusing this particular author of doing this, BTW. I don't think I've ever read anything of his before.


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I wasn't suggesting that this article was, rather that one of people we mention on this thread will/would do so at some point - quite cynically.



Yeah, the point I'm trying (struggling apparently) to make is that those people already *do* do that quite cynically, although perhaps not quite so explicitly


----------



## belboid (Jan 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> Well it's ostensibly saying that calling people out on the internet is bad "public shaming, mob justice and scolding", but there's a certain irony in that being published in the New Statesman, home of call-outs of ignorant yobs based on the author's purported well-educated understanding of the ishoos, don't you think?
> 
> I'm not accusing this particular author of doing this, BTW. I don't think I've ever read anything of his before.


so, it _doesnt_ do any of the things you said it did, you're just complaining because of where it is published.  Which is essentially exactly what the article is complaining about.


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2014)

belboid said:


> so, it _doesnt_ do any of the things you said it did, you're just complaining because of where it is published.  Which is essentially exactly what the article is complaining about.



So, do you/should we always read everything with no thought to where it's published, no attempt to put it into a wider context?


----------



## belboid (Jan 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> So, do you/should we always read everything with no thought to where it's published, no attempt to put it into a wider context?


you didn't put it in a 'wider context', you just slagged it off because of where it is. Which is bollocks, and lazy bollocks at that.

There's plenty of shite in there already without needing to make stuff up


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2014)

belboid said:


> you didn't put it in a 'wider context', you just slagged it off because of where it is. Which is bollocks, and lazy bollocks at that.
> 
> There's plenty of shite in there already without needing to make stuff up



I was working on the basis that most people reading this thread were able to put it into a wider context without me needing to spell it out for them, perhaps I misjudged it


----------



## belboid (Jan 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> I was working on the basis that most people reading this thread were able to put it into a wider context without me needing to spell it out for them, perhaps I misjudged it


good attempt at arse covering. failed tho


----------



## BigTom (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> "allowed" by who?
> and who says they are privileged



Now that us straight, white, men are allowed, PD would like to offer a spokesman (yes, spokesMAN, we are allowed now!) for the new movement:


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> these acronyms - brocialism, mansplaining etc, are so cringeworthy.



A less obvious (but no less pernicious) side effect of all these oxbridge/public school type twats refusing to stay in their natural habitats and instead colonising  "left wing" polititics, inner city areas is that slang and esoteric phrases for those in the know become completely fucking prosaic and goosepimples-rising-on-the-back-of-the-neck inducingly cringewortht.


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> these acronyms - brocialism, mansplaining etc, are so cringeworthy.


Are you sure you're not really a frogmenz wahing?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Are you sure you're not really a frogmenz wahing?


 
what?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2014)

last time i checked, i hadn't suddenly grown anything unexpected down there (i know you're joking, but it's pathetic that they respond to criticisms like this and it's happened to me before with them)


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what?


I'd love to give you an example but after 10 minutes of scrolling down Samambreen's twitter and only getting as far as Monday I've decided against it. It came up on the bookfair thread I think.


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 30, 2014)

[URL="http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/anarchist-bookfair-2013-october-19th.315271/page-13#post-12643149"]Anarchist Bookfair 2013 October 19th[/URL]


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2014)

Please tell me they don't talk like this in real life. to be fair, there are other annoying expressions like "full of win"  which unfortunately i've heard people say in real life


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 30, 2014)

Painful spat. Helen Lewis versus Sam ambreen.
http://storify.com/anyapalmer/feminist-wars-part-2


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

wtf is going on in our society to produce people like this? It's not just individuals. What a fucking waste.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Painful spate. Helen Lewis versus Sam ambreen.
> http://storify.com/anyapalmer/feminist-wars-part-2


Classic example of the cynical use of this shit: this sambreen called mary beard a vile racist, some people demanded proofm breen responded:  "it hasn't been reported in way in which it was seen. i don't know if i can find a link, just that i don't forget racism/racists."  and the response from some of her comrades was: "I believe you. Thank you for highlighting this - I'll be more aware in future.". Onto the next accusation.


----------



## rekil (Jan 30, 2014)

This is what the PD twitter machine only dreams of producing.


> white people can only deal with straight, fine hair - all they're taught. Ruin mine, called it brillo & am white. I avoid them


https://twitter.com/WonderfulWeirdo/status/428211425438625792


----------



## JimW (Jan 30, 2014)

Saw this link on Doug Henwood's twitter about the same circular firing squad in US feminism: http://www.thenation.com/article/178140/feminisms-toxic-twitter-wars


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Painful spat. Helen Lewis versus Sam ambreen.
> http://storify.com/anyapalmer/feminist-wars-part-2


This was a year ago?

Dire though.


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 30, 2014)

cesare said:


> This was a year ago?
> 
> Dire though.


Yeah, I should of mentioned that. Just stumbled on it looking for something else. I'm not apologising though


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> This is what the PD twitter machine only dreams of producing.
> 
> https://twitter.com/WonderfulWeirdo/status/428211425438625792



theres a Statesman article current about the politics of black hair (skimmed it mind).

http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2014/01/politics-black-hair

not a bad article imo (having read it through) missed a trick by not having a pic of Angela Davis tho!


----------



## J Ed (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> wtf is going on in our society to produce people like this? It's not just individuals. What a fucking waste.



http://samambreen.wordpress.com/tag/mary-beard/



> Don’t hijack this to cover your anti intersectional sins.



_Sins_


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2014)

I keep meaning to draw up a list of the worst of them

Penny
Lewis
Ambreen


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

cesare said:


> I keep meaning to draw up a list of the worst of them
> 
> Penny
> Lewis
> Ambreen


morse


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

cesare said:


> Ambreen


not a patch on dan breen


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> All white straight men irl ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, that's because you're #conservativemp.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> A forced agricultural labourer in Belarus guiltily ponders his white, straight, cis male privilege.



As his bollocks migrate toward his kidneys due to the cold.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/tag/mary-beard/
> 
> 
> 
> _Sins_


 
Sins wtf?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Sins wtf?


and they're not even original


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/tag/mary-beard/



This person is clearly mentally ill.  I understand that she's drawing attention to herself, but surely the best thing to do is politely avert one's eyes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> This person is clearly mentally ill.  I understand that she's drawing attention to herself, but surely the best thing to do is politely avert one's eyes.


it's the auld monkey and typewriter thing, so on this one occasion when your post contains sense it's due to chance rather than design.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> wtf is going on in our society to produce people like this?



People have become convinced that their identities are entirely constructed from the outside.  They do not understand the importance of individual character because they do not believe in it.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the auld monkey and typewriter thing, so on this one occasion when your post contains sense it's due to chance rather than design.



Pickman's, would you be open to basically burying the hatchet and starting anew?  I'm pretty bored with our feud.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Pickman's, would you be open to basically burying the hatchet and starting anew?  I'm pretty bored with our feud.


yes, let's start a fresh feud.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)




----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, let's start a fresh feud.



How would you like to do that?


----------



## treelover (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not a patch on dan breen



That's a cracking description: "sulky bulldog appearance, looks like a blacksmith coming from work"  who on earth wrote that?


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> That's a cracking description: "sulky bulldog appearance, looks like a blacksmith coming from work"  who on earth wrote that?


The Brits, check yer blah blah blah


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How would you like to do that?


you kick it off.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you kick it off.



If I refuse you insult you, would you take it as an insult?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If I refuse you insult you, would you take it as an insult?


i thought i could rely on you to come out with a strong first post but i was much mistaken


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If I refuse you insult you, would you take it as an insult?


Give it to him pickmans!!!!! And remember if it's not intersectional it's not our row.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> That's a cracking description: "sulky bulldog appearance, looks like a blacksmith coming from work"  who on earth wrote that?



"I write the wanted notices for the RIC, but ever since I was a boy I've dreamed of being a poet".


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If I refuse you insult you, would you take it as an insult?





Pickman's model said:


> i thought i could rely on you to come out with a strong first post but i was much mistaken



And we're off!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> And we're off!



Don't you see, PIckman's?  They're using us for their entertainment.  It's like _Spartacus._


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Don't you see, PIckman's?  They're using us for their entertainment.  It's like _Spartacus._


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Don't you see, PIckman's?  They're using us for their entertainment.  It's like _Spartacus._


no one's using you for their entertainment.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


>



I'm absolutely hankering for Crowes upcoming 'Noah' film. The trailer is immense

'I stand with men at my back, and you stand alone?!'

'I am not alone'



and also


'What did he say noah?'

'He said he's going to destroy the world'


Russel Crowe is perfect for Noah


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no one's using you for their entertainment.


Go on, let him have this one chance.  If it turns out that it's a wind up, he'll look like more of a twunt than you will by refusing.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm absolutely hankering for Crowes upcoming 'Noah' film. The trailer is immense
> 
> 'I stand with men at my back, and you stand alone?!'
> 
> ...


 
Men?? Check your etc


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Men?? Check your etc



some men, yesterday:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer ok then


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Men?? Check your etc




I will come back with my shield or on it etc


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> phildwyer ok then



OK then.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Men?? Check your etc


He's just about to check his





I really did try to find something less objectifying


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

Greebo said:


> He's just about to check his
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he's just checking it's not been turned into some sort of object


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> he's just checking it's not been turned into some sort of object



That chap appears to have a woman's hand?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2014)

brogdale said:


> That chap appears to have a woman's hand?


yeh i was wondering about that too


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2014)

brogdale said:


> That chap appears to have a woman's hand?


This thread is not the seafaring episode of Blackadder II okay?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 30, 2014)

brogdale said:


> That chap appears to have a woman's hand?




sit on your arm till it goes numb


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 30, 2014)

Greebo said:


> This thread is not the seafaring episode of Blackadder II okay?








'You have a woman's legs! I'll wager those legs have never been sawn clean off by a falling sail and swept into the sea before your very eyes...'


----------



## captainmission (Jan 30, 2014)

brogdale said:


> That chap appears to have a woman's hand?



stop you gender normativism #die cis cum


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2014)

captainmission said:


> stop you gender normativism #die cis cum



Check.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

#smashthecisscum


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

This twitrhetoric is basically cointelopro with a self-winding mechanism.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 30, 2014)

Greebo said:


> He's just about to check his
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Showing My Age Yet Again Dept:  This "wot's this all abaht then?" pic reminds me of the old advert for Denim aftershave:



Checking of privilege done by these admen:  None whatsoever.  Time for them to listen to Maoist choons as punishment <posts Cardew's "people's  music" for about the 25th time on Urban>


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)




----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


>



Arrrrrghhhhh - my eyes!

(Nowt wrong with topless man pics ususally, but Dyer - no no no no no!)


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Ffs butchers.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

"Last turkey in the shop".


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

We missed his commentariat stuff - he faced down a a load of homophobes vs his cut her stuff. Is he one of  us?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Ffs butchers.



Nah, Butchers is all OK - twas probably me posting that horrendous Denim ad that brought the Dyer to mind for him.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> We missed his commentariat stuff - he faced down a a load of homophobes vs his cut her stuff. Is he one one us?



Bloody hell - senor Butchers is bang on the money again: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/01/0...onse-to-homophobic-viewers-is-just-brilliant/

Although I personally don't care for Dyer as an actor, total respect due to him for telling the homophobes to do one.

Is he one of us?  For this alone, yeah.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 30, 2014)

I assume they count as commentariat, this article is pure satire.



> Here is why we need sex education: we need sex education because (some) men are asking for anal sex on the first date. This is fact. If you do not believe it, then I'm afraid, you simply haven't spoken to enough women in their 20s.



Translation: I asked some friends


> We need sex education, because (some) men seem to think sex ends with him ejaculating on your breasts, or in your hair, or in your face. We need sex education because of a practice called "seagulling", a boarding school import (what else?) that has spread to some university halls of residence. It involves a group of guys standing outside a mate's door while he has sex with a girl, and then bursting in and ejaculating over her, all at once.



Absolute bullshit. I doubt such a practise even exists. Plus, it's assault and not sex. I mean, bloody hell, this passes for a comment piece at the Guardian? 

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...influence-real-sex-education-online-fantasies


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I assume they count as commentariat, this article is pure satire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It might have happened once or twice, fuck knows. To go from there to implying it's normal or representative of young people's sex habits is a bit rich. Also liked her outrage at the cheek of some guys asking for anal on the first date. I mean, come on.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 30, 2014)

> It's all anecdotal, of course, which is why we need a massive, nationwide investigation, and we need it right now.



I'd love to see a Royal Commission into seagulling


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I'd love to see a Royal Commission into seagulling


And wolfbagging.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> And wolfbagging.



But not 'Loaf Roasting' which frankly should be kept as far as possible from scandalising the public's delicate morals.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 30, 2014)

Now 'Loaf Roasting' really does involve using your head:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=loaf roasting


----------



## co-op (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> wtf is going on in our society to produce people like this? It's not just individuals. What a fucking waste.



There are a lot of people who are right on the borderline of mentally ill in modern normal society, why wouldn't there be? Extreme individualism is a state of great insecurity and constant competition and comparison. What we know about climate change and the coming chaos alone is enough to mean that we live in a culture which is genuinely suicidal, let alone all the other abuses and violence that we have to learn to condone or ignore. To be "sane" in modernity is to be able to successfully ignore the most important things that are happening. The best way to do that is to just join in the mainstream as best you can. But if you're unable to do that because you are alienated from the mainstream for whatever reason - your personal need to be "different" or important in some way, probably a consequence of your elite upbringing, then a retreat into obsessive, narcissistic, endlessly self-referring halls of mirrors is as good a way as any. There are loads of people like this obsessing about their facebook likes or the neighbours car or whatever, modernity is mass-producing them, the Sam Ambreens are just the 'political' version.

It's ironic than in her Grand Vision of freedom from kyriarchy and patriarchy and all the rest of it, she's reduced herself to obsessing over the the tiniest minutiae of correctitude and propriety and thus merely re-enacting an old stereotype of obsessively privatised female behaviour, it's like obsessing over shoes and ribbons. Or diet etc etc. 



butchersapron said:


> This twitrhetoric is basically cointelopro with a self-winding mechanism.



Reminds me of the conspiraloon industry. If I was going to make sure that any weirdness about - say 9/11 - was never going to get taken seriously, I'd get straight on to setting up a Truth Industry. Once it's up and running there is enough genuine paranoia, fear and obsession out there to keep the whole thing alive all on its own - and anyone with a grip on reality will be instantly alienated.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...influence-real-sex-education-online-fantasies



Bloody hell.

"we need sex education because (some) men are asking for anal sex on the first date. This is fact. If you do not believe it, then I'm afraid, you simply haven't spoken to enough women in their 20s."

Fact.  This is fact.  Amazing fact, but fact nonetheless.  How old is this person, 16?


----------



## J Ed (Jan 30, 2014)

Are blokes asking for anal as a way of haggling? "If I ask for anal then at the very least I'll get a handjob..."


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Are blokes asking for anal as a way of haggling? "If I ask for anal then at the very least I'll get a handjob..."


Are blokes asking for anal, full stop? This CIF piece is a good counterweight to the shite linked to on the last page http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/dont-treat-young-men-like-sex-crazed-monsters


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

co-op said:


> There are a lot of people who are right on the borderline of mentally ill in modern normal society, why wouldn't there be? Extreme individualism is a state of great insecurity and constant competition and comparison. What we know about climate change and the coming chaos alone is enough to mean that we live in a culture which is genuinely suicidal, let alone all the other abuses and violence that we have to learn to condone or ignore. To be "sane" in modernity is to be able to successfully ignore the most important things that are happening. The best way to do that is to just join in the mainstream as best you can. But if you're unable to do that because you are alienated from the mainstream for whatever reason - your personal need to be "different" or important in some way, probably a consequence of your elite upbringing, then a retreat into obsessive, narcissistic, endlessly self-referring halls of mirrors is as good a way as any. There are loads of people like this obsessing about their facebook likes or the neighbours car or whatever, modernity is mass-producing them, the Sam Ambreens are just the 'political' version.
> 
> It's ironic than in her Grand Vision of freedom from kyriarchy and patriarchy and all the rest of it, she's reduced herself to obsessing over the the tiniest minutiae of correctitude and propriety and thus merely re-enacting an old stereotype of obsessively privatised female behaviour, it's like obsessing over shoes and ribbons. Or diet etc etc.
> 
> ...


That's a post that deserves thinking about. Thank you. Back on it later.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 30, 2014)

seagulling is widely known as the practise of spunking in your palm and flinging the results out at random. Like that wrong un from Silence of The Lambs who was in the cell next door to Lecter.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> seagulling is widely known as the practise of spunking in your palm and flinging the results out at random. Like that wrong un from Silence of The Lambs who was in the cell next door to Lecter.


Is it widely known? It's the first I've ever heard of the term and practice, if it is indeed a practice. I like to think I'm a bit of a perv too


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Is it widely known? It's the first I've ever heard of the term and practice, if it is indeed a practice. I like to think I'm a bit of a perv too



It's less unpleasant than the practice known by American convicts as 'gassing,' to be fair. Gassing is when a convict keeps a bucket of shit and piss, lets it brew for a few days and then lobs the lot over the next guard to walk past his cell bars. Not that seagulling is exactly non-vile, obviously.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> It's less unpleasant than the practice known by American convicts as 'gassing,' to be fair. Gassing is when a convict keeps a bucket of shit and piss, lets it brew for a few days and then lobs the lot over the next guard to walk past his cell bars. Not that seagulling is exactly non-vile, obviously.


But that's not a sexual thing.

I hope.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Are blokes asking for anal, full stop? This CIF piece is a good counterweight to the shite linked to on the last page http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/dont-treat-young-men-like-sex-crazed-monsters



Seriously good piece. Makes for an embarrassing comparison as I'm sure the author of that turgid piece is actively promoting an urban legend as fact. Fact. It's a fact.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Seriously good piece. Makes for an embarrassing comparison as I'm sure the author of that turgid piece is actively promoting an urban legend as fact. Fact. It's a fact.


He's quite explicitly writing against that other shovel of shite too, surprised CIF even published it seeing as Rhiannon whatserface is getting quite high profile.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Is it widely known? It's the first I've ever heard of the term and practice, if it is indeed a practice. I like to think I'm a bit of a perv too


I hadn't heard of it either.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Are blokes asking for anal, full stop? This CIF piece is a good counterweight to the shite linked to on the last page http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/dont-treat-young-men-like-sex-crazed-monsters



fuck off, what's with the sex crazed monsters shaming!


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

revol68 said:


> fuck off, what's with the sex crazed monsters shaming!


Shame on you.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> But that's not a sexual thing.
> 
> I hope.


I bet there are a few tory MPs who would pay good money for it.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> He's quite explicitly writing against that other shovel of shite too, surprised CIF even published it seeing as Rhiannon whatserface is getting quite high profile.



Checked out her Vagenda bollocks blog and she obviously writes for the NS also. Laughable they are even journalists. It's like the writings of a 15-year-old Cosmo reader.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 31, 2014)

This piece by the same author is even worse. No, really. The first paragraph alone is execrable



> Remember when, in 17somethingorother, Napoleon described England as a nation of shopkeepers? Of course you don't, you didn't exist, and it any case he nicked the phrase from Adam Smith's 1776 magnum opus The Wealth of Nations, but the point is that the man was wrong. Unsurprising when you consider that Napoleon was wrong about lots of things, such as being really tall, invading Russia and speaking clearly on his deathbed so that those in the vicinity could make an accurate note of his comments for posterity, but in this case he was dreadfully, spectacularly wrong. Here's the hard truth: we are not a nation of shopkeepers, but a nation of shoplifters.



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ion-of-shoplifters-supermarket-self-checkouts


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

listicle


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 31, 2014)

S☼I said:


> This piece by the same author is even worse. No, really. The first paragraph alone is execrable



Written by a child, and evidently aimed at children.  Who on earth do they think is reading the Guardian these days?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

their hope is americans apparently. The online stuff is suppossed to cater for the huffington reader


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> their hope is americans apparently. The online stuff is suppossed to cater for the huffington reader



The HP would be ashamed to print that crap.


----------



## DownwardDog (Jan 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Are blokes asking for anal as a way of haggling? "If I ask for anal then at the very least I'll get a handjob..."



Transitional demand. Classic 4th International.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

aim for the moon and you might hit the top of a lampost


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 31, 2014)




----------



## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2014)

> When the Sainsbury's queue fascist approaches with the intention of chivvying me into the robot pen, I simply say, politely, "No thank you", and stay put.


 
WAKE UP SHEEPLE !


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> WAKE UP SHEEPLE !



Me too....until I learnt, just the other day, that packs of smoked salmon can be tucked inside a newspaper to fool the self-checkout. (Apparently because the weight of papers vary from day to day, they are not weighed after bar-coding). Now for the champers....


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> We missed his commentariat stuff - he faced down a a load of homophobes vs his cut her stuff. Is he one of  us?


 
Didn't he also Blame The Sub initially?


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 31, 2014)

S☼I said:


> This piece by the same author is even worse. No, really. The first paragraph alone is execrable
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ion-of-shoplifters-supermarket-self-checkouts



Wow. That's so painful to read.

Also, calling out this as bullshit once again:


> This is someone who once stole a three-bedroom house's worth of furniture from Ikea by bypassing the checkouts but still arranged to have it all delivered by them, personally, to her door.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2014)

treelover said:


> That's a cracking description: "sulky bulldog appearance, looks like a blacksmith coming from work"  who on earth wrote that?



A middle-ranking army intelligence (yes, I know, oxymoron!) officer, most likely.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 31, 2014)




----------



## J Ed (Jan 31, 2014)

I can't figure it out, someone call the Poe-lice


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 31, 2014)

Monica Lewinsky?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Monica Lewinsky?



Sure thing.

I can't believe they left Reg Varney off that list at the bottom.


----------



## co-op (Jan 31, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I can't believe they left Reg Varney off that list at the bottom.





Reg Varney is cis??

Who knew?


----------



## The Pale King (Jan 31, 2014)

Between the (Twitter) Wars

New Statesman blogger 'Glosswitch' unfurls 'misogofeminism'.

http://glosswatch.com/2014/01/27/scolds-bridle/

...portmanteau or neologism? Or both?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2014)

co-op said:


> Reg Varney is cis??
> 
> Who knew?



Olive. Also cis, apparently.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Between the (Twitter) Wars
> 
> New Statesman blogger 'Glosswitch' unfurls 'misogofeminism'.
> 
> ...




robin morgan eating japanese soup?


----------



## The Pale King (Jan 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> robin morgan eating japanese soup?


 
*applauds*


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Olive. Also cis, apparently.



Olive's husband - not so sure.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 1, 2014)

> Around 1870, class explained more than two thirds of global inequality. And now? The proportions have exactly flipped: more than two thirds of total inequality is due to location


Location location


----------



## J Ed (Feb 2, 2014)

Kirstie Allsopp: Liberator of the Eastern Proletariat


----------



## rekil (Feb 3, 2014)

It's a Mail hack but still

https://twitter.com/scandilouslife/status/428543821022887936



> So happy I got a Les Miserable's reference into a Ukraine protest story #doyouhearthepeoplesing


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 3, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Between the (Twitter) Wars
> 
> New Statesman blogger 'Glosswitch' unfurls 'misogofeminism'.
> 
> ...


 
i read that and i'm no clearer on what position she is advocating or what she actually wants to happen.  is she calling people out for calling people out?  i think what she's trying to say is that whenever you criticise another self-identified feminist then you're actually a woman hater.  which she does through the medium of criticism of feminists.  is that what is happening here?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i read that and i'm no clearer on what position she is advocating or what she actually wants to happen.  is she calling people out for calling people out?  i think what she's trying to say is that whenever you criticise another self-identified feminist then you're actually a woman hater.  which she does through the medium of criticism of feminists.  is that what is happening here?



I was going to find a picture of a person standing in front of a bunch of mirrors for an infinity effect, and then add a fake-Mao maxim on self-reflection. But then I didn't, because I couldn't be arsed, and it's not worth it. Feel free to offer half-likes in recognition for the thought if not the actual effort.


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i read that and i'm no clearer on what position she is advocating or what she actually wants to happen.  is she calling people out for calling people out?  i think what she's trying to say is that whenever you criticise another self-identified feminist then you're actually a woman hater.  which she does through the medium of criticism of feminists.  is that what is happening here?



It's pompous, self-aggrandizing bullshit. And surprisingly coy about who it is meant to be calling out (dark mutterings of skimming through 'a number of twitter timelines, but she won't dish). Privilege is also a 'shifting, intersecting thing' - which means nothing that I can figure out.
I found this bit almost touching:

"It’s feminists who have the nerve to put honesty before radical posturing who are unsettling. Those who genuinely claim space, which is then written off as “privilege” (because what is a woman doing there?). Such women might actually make a difference. So into the bridle they go"

...I do find her unsettling, but not for the reasons she wants me to. I must bow before her for 'genuinely claiming space' in the New Statesman bloggers stable though. No bridles in there eh?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

meanwhile back in the real world ...


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> It's pompous, self-aggrandizing bullshit. And surprisingly coy about who it is meant to be calling out (dark mutterings of skimming through 'a number of twitter timelines, but she won't dish). Privilege is also a 'shifting, intersecting thing' - which means nothing that I can figure out.
> I found this bit almost touching:
> 
> "It’s feminists who have the nerve to put honesty before radical posturing who are unsettling. Those who genuinely claim space, which is then written off as “privilege” (because what is a woman doing there?). Such women might actually make a difference. So into the bridle they go"
> ...


Guff like that just makes me go 'what private school did this one go to then?' 

She's a bit of a royalist apparently, with mandatory bit of grating self-deprecation.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> Guff like that just makes me go 'what private school did this one go to then?'
> 
> She's a bit of a royalist apparently, with mandatory bit of grating self-deprecation.
> 
> View attachment 47733


 
why would you make your dining room look like that? to be "ironic"? I'm sorry but that just looks hideous.


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> why would you make your dining room look like that? to be "ironic"? I'm sorry but that just looks hideous.


Check the date. It's because she's a patriot. Go back to Russia.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> why would you make your dining room look like that? to be "ironic"? I'm sorry but that just looks hideous.


Look at the picture more closely: paper plates and cups. Look at the date: June 2012. It's for a one-off Jubilee party.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

FUCK YOU copliker


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Look at the picture more closely: paper plates and cups. Look at the date: June 2012. It's for a one-off Jubilee party.


 
I thought she was an intersectionalist?


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I thought she was an intersectionalist?


Are the royals not oppressed by their gilded cage? It's a bit of #solidarity.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> Are the royals not oppressed by their gilded cage? It's a bit of #solidarity.


 
we have no idea how it feels to be ridiculed for a life of inbreeding.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

we need to write an intersectional analysis of harry hewitt


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I thought she was an intersectionalist?


In the scheme of intersectionalism divas, she's small fry.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

thats a poor effort- paper plates and cups? where's the franklin mint specials?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> There are a lot of people who are right on the borderline of mentally ill in modern normal society, why wouldn't there be? Extreme individualism is a state of great insecurity and constant competition and comparison. What we know about climate change and the coming chaos alone is enough to mean that we live in a culture which is genuinely suicidal, let alone all the other abuses and violence that we have to learn to condone or ignore. To be "sane" in modernity is to be able to successfully ignore the most important things that are happening. The best way to do that is to just join in the mainstream as best you can. But if you're unable to do that because you are alienated from the mainstream for whatever reason - your personal need to be "different" or important in some way, probably a consequence of your elite upbringing, then a retreat into obsessive, narcissistic, endlessly self-referring halls of mirrors is as good a way as any. There are loads of people like this obsessing about their facebook likes or the neighbours car or whatever, modernity is mass-producing them, the Sam Ambreens are just the 'political' version.
> 
> It's ironic than in her Grand Vision of freedom from kyriarchy and patriarchy and all the rest of it, she's reduced herself to obsessing over the the tiniest minutiae of correctitude and propriety and thus merely re-enacting an old stereotype of obsessively privatised female behaviour, it's like obsessing over shoes and ribbons. Or diet etc etc.
> 
> ...



*slow clap*

You boys sure have me sussed.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Bang!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

this will probably be as successful as Laurie Penny's interactions with us.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Is this really real then?


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> *slow clap*
> 
> You boys sure have me sussed.


Despite the name co-op is one boy at most.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

This isn't going to go that well at all.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> This isn't going to go that well at all.


I'm offended already.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Ahhh.. Forgive me, but if it sounds like a whining MRA.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ahhh.. Forgive me, but if it sounds like a whining MRA.


Yep, you've got the hang of it, just like Laurie.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ahhh.. Forgive me, but if it sounds like a whining MRA.


Mountain rescue associate? Or is there some other isolating distance producing acronym that i've missed?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Mountain rescue associate? Or is there some other isolating distance producing acronym that i've missed?


Men's Recovery Alliance?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ahhh.. Forgive me, but if it sounds like a whining MRA.



You may even find some stuff here you agree with Sam, people here are pretty supportive of feminism (albeit not so much the twitterati/privilege theory driven kind) and generally dislike Helen Lewis for her liberal nonsense. Maybe take a bit of time to read through what people are saying rather than jumping to conclusions about people based on them ticking a few boxes in your head that means you automatically want to dismiss what they have to say.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

For a supposedly smart bunch, you really don't know much about my politics.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> For a supposedly smart bunch, you really don't know much about my politics.


 
we're smart, not psychic.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> For a supposedly smart bunch, you really don't know much about my politics.


Straight question - how much of this thread have you read?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> For a supposedly smart bunch, you really don't know much about my politics.


What's my fav film?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

and, taken on average, not really that smart either tbh.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

All I know is, every so often I get a rush of clicks from this forum and every time I see my name mentioned it's something about my mental health or my "elite upbringing". How wrong could you be?


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Straight question - how much of this thread have you read?


It's a knee jerk response to a vanity search.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What's my fav film?


Something with subtitles in black and white, or that one with Mark Wahlberg where he's that guy with those other guys, and they're doing that thing, and it's like real life, but not, and there's that dead dog bit. And drugs.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> It's a knee jerk response to a vanity search.


Shush!


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> It's a knee jerk response to a vanity search.


No.. I have a blog that is frequently linked to from this site.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> and, taken on average, not really that smart either tbh.



could probably outwit a slow child, or a clever dog though. Defeated by complex smartphone interfaces


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Is this really real then?


Most likely. The site has been linked to by her twitter account a couple of times.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Shit, and here I thought I was gonna get some work done this afternoon.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

this'll go well.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> All I know is, every so often I get a rush of clicks from this forum and every time I see my name mentioned it's something about my mental health or my "elite upbringing". How wrong could you be?


No one mentioned your elite-upbringing (edit: i doubt most people here know if you had such a background or not). A poster  mentioned that people who benefit from an "elite upbringing" are to the fore of the calling out/you're a racist culture in response to a question as to why this shite is all over the place.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> No.. I have a blog that is frequently linked to from this site.


A knee jerk response to a blog link, then.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Doesn't matter what I say/do, you already have a picture drawn up in your head about how I'm a spoilt middle class brat with an unhealthy self love.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> A knee jerk response to a blog link, then.


This isn't the first time I've been linked.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Well, anyway, I'm here so you can get it straight from the horse's mouth instead of letting your preconceptions/stereotypes get the better of you. Think of it as a service.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't matter what I say/do, you already have a picture drawn up in your head about how I'm a spoilt middle class brat with an unhealthy self love.


Are we not individuals with our own experiences and lessons sam?


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> This isn't the first time I've been linked.


Perhaps utilising the search function should give you a rounder picture of posters' opinions of your politics/actions/writing.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Well, anyway, I'm here so you can get it straight from the horse's mouth instead of letting your preconceptions/stereotypes get the better of you. Think of it as a service.


Not sure anyone is that interested in you now to be fair. I'm sure you'll shoulder the responsibility though.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> You may even find some stuff here you agree with Sam, people here are pretty supportive of feminism (albeit not so much the twitterati/privilege theory driven kind) and generally dislike Helen Lewis for her liberal nonsense. Maybe take a bit of time to read through what people are saying rather than jumping to conclusions about people based on them ticking a few boxes in your head that means you automatically want to dismiss what they have to say.



Don't you think I am responding because people on here have been doing just that?


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Well, anyway, I'm here so you can get it straight from the horse's mouth instead of letting your preconceptions/stereotypes get the better of you. Think of it as a service.


Hello Sam 
Tell us about your politics.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure anyone is that interested in you now to be fair. I'm sure you'll shoulder the responsibility though.



Ha. When you stop mentioning my name, I will believe you're not interested. Until then, I call bullshit.


----------



## andysays (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> No.. I have a blog that is frequently linked to from this site.



I dunno, we send a significant amount of traffic to your blog, enough that you repeatedly notice apparently, and this is the thanks we get...


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2014)

.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Are we not individuals with our own experiences and lessons sam?


 
And what do those experiences and lessons tell you about me?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ha. When you stop mentioning my name, I will believe you're not interested. Until then, I call bullshit.


I'm not interested in you. Really. And i don't care whether you believe that or not. I am interested in what produced the turkeys of intersectionalism and the shite that comes with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> And what do those experiences and lessons tell you about me?


Answer the question. It's not all about you.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> Hello Sam
> Tell us about your politics.



As of today, I'm not sure I can even call myself a feminist. It's been a struggle holding onto it but the way white feminism seems to have hijacked even our latest efforts, the complete disregard for people's mental health, the way in which they invite violence into the lives of trans* folk.. it's not my feminism.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Don't you think I am responding because people on here have been doing just that?



That's fair, I look forward to you proving us/them wrong.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not interested in you. Really. And i don't care whether you believe that or not. I am interested in what produced the turkeys of intersectionalism and the shite that comes with it.



Sorry, are you saying I do not have the right to demand equality of opportunity/rights? That I, as a brown queer woman of colour should just suck up the shit that I've had to endure these past 30 years forever? You know what I'm going to say right? Would you rather I just went quietly and let you maintain the status quo? Heh. Never.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> As of today, I'm not sure I can even call myself a feminist. It's been a struggle holding onto it but the way white feminism seems to have hijacked even our latest efforts, the complete disregard for people's mental health, the way in which they invite violence into the lives of trans* folk.. it's not my feminism.


Woah woah, back up a bit. What complete disregard for MH?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Sorry, are you saying I do not have the right to demand equality of opportunity/rights? That I, as a brown queer woman of colour should just suck up the shit that I've had to endure these past 30 years forever? You know what I'm going to say right? Would you rather I just went quietly and let you maintain the status quo? Heh. Never.


Ends. Pointless.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Answer the question. It's not all about you.



Of course it's about me. It's about every single living being. It's about you too.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Ends. Pointless.


In fairness you didn't exactly tread softly on the pedals here did you? Altho I agree it's likely a pointless thing we're about to witness.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Of course it's about me. It's about every single living being. It's about you too.


KUMBAYA? Please.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Of course it's about me. It's about every single living being. It's about you too.


But it's not ALL about you. You have refused to recognise that people have difference experinces here on this thread. You've flattened them down into one single body that says...well, whatever you want. Not good way to behave.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Woah woah, back up a bit. What complete disregard for MH?


You don't think some of the excruciating batshit insectionalista hate battles on twitter are bad for MH?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> In fairness you didn't exactly tread softly on the pedals here did you? Altho I agree it's likely a pointless thing we're about to witness.


Doesn't matter. That pre-prepared stuff was coming out at some point or another.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> You don't think some of the excruciating batshit hate insectionalista hate battles on twitter are bad for MH?


I'm sure they are. Or am I? Anyway, I was simply after some context for what she said.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Doesn't matter. That pre-prepared stuff was coming out at some point or another.


Probably.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> You don't think some of the excruciating batshit insectionalista hate battles on twitter are bad for MH?


I do. Which means that there is no way out for those of us criticising sam.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Woah woah, back up a bit. What complete disregard for MH?



There is a high prevalence of mental illness among oppressed groups and activists. I can think of at least 3 occasions where posters on this forum referred to my mental health as a contributing factor to my "crazy" beliefs. The mental illness came after. For the record, I do have complex post traumatic stress disorder. This does not mean I do not have agency. What causes mental illness in our circles? Losing every fight you take part in. Being afraid to leave the front door since the latest random stranger called me a paki and tried to physically assault me. A lifetime of physical and sexual violence. I could do one of two things; curl up into a ball and die slowly in my room (which is where I was at a few years back) or change my world by demanding the standards white cis heteropatriarchy takes for granted. Of course I understand why this might be scary for you..


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I do. Which means that there is no way out for those of us criticising sam.


Aye, I suspect it'll be more of the same but here instead.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

*cue taunts of TMI*


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Hah. You're not even listening. You folk have made your mind up about me.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> *cue taunts of TMI*


You're more likely to be taunted for your use of the jargon.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

See butchersapron and truxta. Is there any way of having a reasonable discussion with either of those?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> There is a high prevalence of mental illness among oppressed groups and activists. I can think of at least *3 occasions where posters on this forum referred to my mental health as a contributing factor to my "crazy" beliefs*. The mental illness came after. For the record, I do have complex post traumatic stress disorder. This does not mean I do not have agency. What causes mental illness in our circles? Losing every fight you take part in. Being afraid to leave the front door since the latest random stranger called me a paki and tried to physically assault me. A lifetime of physical and sexual violence. I could do one of two things; curl up into a ball and die slowly in my room (which is where I was at a few years back) or change my world by demanding the standards white cis heteropatriarchy takes for granted. Of course I understand why this might be scary for you..


Name and shame or be forever silent. Honestly, you gotta back up accusations like that.


Sam Ambreen said:


> *cue taunts of TMI*


Pah, try the health forum here and see what people talk about.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> See butchersapron and truxta. Is there any way of having a reasonable discussion with either of those?


Set aside this intersectionalism business and language for a while, and talk with us as people talk in everyday lives.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

yes.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

Out of the ordinary beliefs are good for society.  Without them we would all be drones.
I am a Trotskyist, Atheist, Paranoid Schizophrenic and proud of it.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

Name names.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> See butchersapron and truxta. Is there any way of having a reasonable discussion with either of those?


Maybe cut the soundbytes and actually try to talk in a way that doesn't assume everyone makes the same contextual assumptions as you do? I'm more than happy to engage in debate.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Hah. You're not even listening. You folk have made your mind up about me.



Tip for you. Engage with people here. Actually engage, address points that are made and be reasonable and rational.

Don't a Penny Dreadful and pop in and out, smearing any and all critics and then spout off about how mean people are to you. We've already got LP periodically disappearing and then reappearing in that way and we don't need another of her ilk.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> the standards white cis heteropatriarchy takes for granted.


all straight white men take these things for granted?  No questions about their place in the power structures of late western capitalism? About how a privileged education and class background (and I have no idea whether you have had one or not, this isn't an accusation) creates that 'standard'? Or do all white cis straight men have that privilege over and above those well educated, _class educated_ women, PoC's queers and trans? 

Methinks you confuse 'white cis heteropatriarchy' for the ruling class.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Ok. I can do that.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Tip for you. Engage with people here. Actually engage, address points that are made and be reasonable and rational.
> 
> Don't a Penny Dreadful and pop in and out, smearing any and all critics and then spout off about how mean people are to you. We've already got LP periodically disappearing and then reappearing in that way and we don't need another of her ilk.


 
You're asking me to be reasonable and rational with people I have experienced nothing but hostility? Also, for chrissakes, stop lumping me in with Laurie Penny and *shudders* fucking Helen Lewis. They're nothing like me. We're not on the same side.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You're asking me to be reasonable and rational with people I have experienced nothing but hostility? Also, for chrissakes, stop lumping me in with Laurie Penny and *shudders* fucking Helen Lewis. They're nothing like me. We're not on the same side.


Errrrrrr your very first post was a snarky comment, and then there was something about us being a bit MRA. Pot, kettle.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> all straight white men take these things for granted?  No questions about their place in the power structures of late western capitalism? About how a privileged education and class background (and I have no idea whether you have had one or not, this isn't an accusation) creates that 'standard'? Or do all white cis straight men have that privilege over and above those well educated, _class educated_ women, PoC's queers and trans?
> 
> Methinks you confuse 'white cis heteropatriarchy' for the ruling class.



Sigh. I have no idea why it is SO difficult for people to understand overlapping oppressions and relative privilege. You think I'm educated? I barely scraped through my GCSE year.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 4, 2014)

Hi Sam, welcome aboard 

I'd read a bit of the boards before getting stuck in to this thread, might give you a better all round view of urban and the people who post on here


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Errrrrrr your very first post was a snarky comment, and then there was something about us being a bit MRA. Pot, kettle.



Every single one of your posts is dripping with disdain. After a while, you get a taste for your sort and well, sort of avoid.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Sigh. I have no idea why it is SO difficult for people to understand overlapping oppressions and relative privilege. You think I'm educated? I barely scraped through my GCSE year.


OK then. Extreme example time. Who's more privileged - Michelle Obama or a white cis hetero terminally unemployed male in Glasgow?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Hi Sam, welcome aboard
> 
> I'd read a bit of the boards before getting stuck in to this thread, might give you a better all round view of urban and the people who post on here



Yeah, I've had people defend the forum before; have been advised to ignore the whiny old men and class war types.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Every single one of your posts is dripping with disdain. After a while, you get a taste for your sort and well, sort of avoid.


You have a nice way of avoiding any substantive comments made haven't you?


----------



## andysays (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> *cue taunts of TMI*



I don't think it's TMI, or that anyone here is likely to taunt/accuse you of that.

For what it's worth, many here have experienced and still do experience oppression, exploitation, mental ill health, physical and/or sexual violence etc and draw on those personal experiences when they post here, on other parts of the forum, usually getting a sympathetic response.

The problem, as I see it, is when people take those experiences as being special or inclusive to them, or that they have a special right to speak about them as if they're special to them, and further when dealing with these widespread issues becomes simply a question of personal therapy conducted in public, rather than a genuinely open and public conversation leading to collective change.

Not having followed all of the links here to your blog, I'm in no position to decide for sure whether you, personally, are one of the "issues as therapy" crowd or not, but from the little I have read on your blog and since you made your entrance here, I certainly have my suspicions. 

You are, of course, as welcome as anyone to post here, even if that does turn out to be your position, but you probably would do better to deal with us as individuals, not assume that we're all identikit copies of one or two of the more vocal posters...


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Every single one of your posts is dripping with disdain. After a while, you get a taste for your sort and well, sort of avoid.



Please don't think Truxta is typical of U75.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Every single one of your posts is dripping with disdain. After a while, you get a taste for your sort and well, sort of avoid.


Because of the tripe that you spout. Some things are justified. This will only go along the lines of _there is only one party and it is that of sam._ As, i suspect, you want.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Please don't think Truxta is typical of U75.


Exactly. I'm unique. And you can fuck off, dwyer.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Please don't think Truxta is typical of U75.


Aren't you going to ask Sam if she is pro or anti capitalism?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> OK then. Extreme example time. Who's more privileged - Michelle Obama or a white cis hetero terminally unemployed male in Glasgow?



If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Exactly. I'm unique.



That's for sure.

Seriously though Sam, don't let Truxta put you off.  We're mostly a friendly lot.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> You have a nice way of avoiding any substantive comments made haven't you?



So do you.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Sigh. I have no idea why it is SO difficult for people to understand overlapping oppressions and relative privilege. You think I'm educated? I barely scraped through my GCSE year.


I said I have no idea about your education, it was clear. I dont know why you have to rewrite my words.

And pointing out there are 'overlapping privileges' in no way contradicts the point that a white working class male has a damned sight fewer privileges than, say, Baroness Warsi. You are the one completely omitting the role of class. Odd for an anarchist communist.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

see the conflation of a criticism of intersectionality/privilege theory with a dismissal and belittlement of your experiences and the shit lifes thrown at you is why its hard to discuss.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.


Clearly everyone else is a racist sexist cunt then. (aside from the fantasies).


----------



## andysays (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Exactly. I'm unique. And you can fuck off, dwyer.



We're all unique, but dwyer is (fortunately) the most unique of all of us


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.



I wasn't asking about you, but thanks all the same. So, in conclusion, Michelle Obama is still less privileged than Weegie Man?


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> Aren't you going to ask Sam if she is pro or anti capitalism?



Of course I am.

Sam: are you pro- or anti-capitalism?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> I don't think it's TMI, or that anyone here is likely to taunt/accuse you of that.
> 
> For what it's worth, many here have experienced and still do experience oppression, exploitation, mental ill health, physical and/or sexual violence etc and draw on those personal experiences when they post here, on other parts of the forum, usually getting a sympathetic response.
> 
> ...



The problem I have is the selective reading by people who want to undermine your whole argument:

http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/its-not-about-me/


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> We're all unique, but dwyer is (fortunately) the most unique of all of us



Still as obsequious as ever eh Andy?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Of course I am.
> 
> Sam: are you pro- or anti-capitalism?


 
Anti. Hugely.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.


Do black people wear tracksuits then?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Anti. Hugely.


lol. Turkey.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Because of the tripe that you spout. Some things are justified. This will only go along the lines of _there is only one party and it is that of sam._ As, i suspect, you want.



Because I share my experiences, that is who I am? Have you actually read my blog?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Still as obsequious as ever eh Andy?


Right phil, off this thread too. I know that you have decided that you have no honour left and so are going for broke, but i'm making one last appeal.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Because I share my experiences, that is who I am? Have you actually read my blog?


Yeah. Or at least your helen lewis episode. Not good.


----------



## andysays (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Still as obsequious as ever eh Andy?



_That's_ my new tag line!


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Do black people wear tracksuits then?



fuck off 'mate'


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

> . He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job



depends how sectarian the local job market is these days eh...


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Right phil, off this thread too. I know that you have decided that you have no honour left and so are going for broke, but i'm making one last appeal.



Oh alright.  Jesus.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah. Or at least your helen lewis episode. Not good.



Bet you believed her version didn't you?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam, for all your blustering and rhetoric I still don't have the first clue about what the hell you actually stand for. Be nice? Don't be a dick?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

And let's get this right - no one is insisting that you're a posho. I think people can see that your insistence that they did is  a pretty shoddy trick given that you'll at some later date show that you aren't.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Bet you believed her version didn't you?


Marvelous, you're taking back your defensive grovelling.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.


Michelle Obama would be spat upon whenever she walked down a street?  Really?  And doesn't her class position mean she is unlikely to be walking down any but the nicest streets? And what is the relevance of the 'tracksuit'? Is it a disguise?  You seem to be saying that if MB were a _working class_ black woman she would face more racism.  And I think everyone would agree, but then class is central again, isn't it? 

 And do white people really only ever talk to your about your colouring? That isn't right is it?

Just because people reject the bourgeois concept of intersectionality, doesnt mean people dont oppose racism and sexism and other forms of bigotry.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 4, 2014)

Surely if Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit she would be surrounded by the armed might of the US state?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Marvelous, you're taking back your defensive grovelling.



Only sick of the white narrative and its powers over the truth.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> fuck off 'mate'


This is the basis of _your_ post about her. That black people wear trackies.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> Michelle Obama would be spat upon whenever she walked down a street?  Really?  And doesn't her class position mean she is unlikely to be walking down any but the nicest streets? And what is the relevance of the 'tracksuit'? Is it a disguise?  You seem to be saying that if MB were a _working class_ black woman she would face more racism.  And I think everyone would agree, but then class is central again, isn't it?
> 
> And do white people really only ever talk to your about your colouring? That isn't right is it?
> 
> Just because people reject the bourgeois concept of intersectionality, doesnt mean people dont oppose racism and sexism and other forms of bigotry.



..rich people don't go jogging then? My, my..


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Surely if Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit she would be surrounded by the armed might of the US state?


But Sam talked about the hypothetical example where MO was a black woman in trackie bottoms, and not actually a lawyer married to the most powerful politician on the planet dontchasee?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Sam, for all your blustering and rhetoric I still don't have the first clue about what the hell you actually stand for. Be nice? Don't be a dick?



All for being nice and not a dick if lead by example.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Only sick of the white narrative and its powers over the truth.


You are all over the shop frankly. This is why i said pointless above. I can understand _just hate_, but it's worthless if it's so incoherent as this.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> All for being nice and not a dick if lead by example.


Me too. Still not sure what you stand *for.* You say you're anarchist and communist. Why do you not want to talk about class much?


----------



## sim667 (Feb 4, 2014)

*sets up deckchair, puts popcorn kernels in the microwave


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This is the basis of _your_ post about her. That black people wear trackies.



You know the term 'microagression'? It means a pattern of behaviour that is recognised as being oppressive, like being baited for example, or having words put into your mouth.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> ..rich people don't go jogging then? My, my..


is that the best you can do? You really dont get the notion of class do you?  Why are you so insistent upon ignoring it?

(and any chance of you accepting that you deliberately rewrote my previous post?  you know you did)


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> ..rich people don't go jogging then? My, my..


IN what world does 'walking' (your words) equal jogging? 

(in my lying sisters world i suppose)


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Me too. Still not sure what you stand *for.* You say you're anarchist and communist. Why do you not want to talk about class much?



She talks about it all the time.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You know the term 'microagression'? It means a pattern of behaviour that is recognised as being oppressive, like being baited for example, or having words put into your mouth.


You said it. You put black people in trackies. I'm _calling you out_ for unacknowledged racism.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Me too. Still not sure what you stand *for.* You say you're anarchist and communist. Why do you not want to talk about class much?



Class is not the only oppression. My mother brought me up on £10 child benefit a week. I have been out of work for 4yrs owing to mental health and a spinal injury. I get one pair of shoes a year. Don't presume to know what my class politics are. All I'm saying is I will not fight the class war at the expense of all the others.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I could do one of two things; curl up into a ball and die slowly in my room (which is where I was at a few years back) or change my world by demanding the standards white cis heteropatriarchy takes for granted. Of course I understand why this might be scary for you..





Sam Ambreen said:


> Hah. You're not even listening. You folk have made your mind up about me.



Er...


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You know the term 'microagression'?


it's a terrible expression. Meaningless. Why not just say being abusive?  Or any other form of words people outside of a small clique understand.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You said it. You put black people in trackies. I'm _calling you out_ for unacknowledged racism.



I'm sure I have a lot unacknowledged racism. Thank you for pointing it out, will have a serious think on it.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Class is not the only oppression. My mother brought me up on £10 child benefit a week. I have been out of work for 4yrs owing to mental health and a spinal injury. I get one pair of shoes a year. Don't presume to know what my class politics are. All I'm saying is I will not fight the class war at the expense of all the others.


but, as pointed out, all your posts completely _ignore_ the role of class. That is why (well, one reason) why everyone is disagreeing with you.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You said it. You put black people in trackies. I'm _calling you out_ for unacknowledged racism.



I put an exercising woman in a jogging suit. But whatevs.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I'm sure I have a lot unacknowledged racism. Thank you for pointing it out, will have a serious think on it.


Will you get back on us as to why you offered such racism?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I put an exercising woman in a jogging suit. But whatevs.


Come the frig on. This back pedaling is inexcusable.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> IN what world does 'walking' (your words) equal jogging?
> 
> (in my lying sisters world i suppose)



Must. Try. Harder. You. Don't be stupid on purpose dude.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I put an exercising woman in a jogging suit. But whatevs.


Oh come on, that's not true. You said if she was walking down the street.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Must. Try. Harder. You. Don't be stupid on purpose dude.


This is why people like you exist on blogs or 140 characters or less. The back and forth - the testing of your words and thoughts  - doesn't happen there. The getting caught, doesn't happen.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> but, as pointed out, all your posts completely _ignore_ the role of class.



Absolute and total bullshit, she goes on abut class all the time.  Taken almost at random from Ambreen's blog:

"Have you ever felt dehumanised on the basis that you are not white and middle *class*? As an ex Muslim working *class *woman of colour with mental and physical disabilities and a queer identity, I have been made to feel subhuman on each of these accounts separately. I cannot reject the experiences of a white working *class* woman but I can remind her that she does not face the risk of death for leaving her religion nor will she be questioned about whether she is a Muslim when she isn’t one, for the rest of her life. Some people don’t even ask if you are a Muslim, they just assume and snarl at you instead. Even white working *class *women have white privilege." 

http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/measuring-privilege/


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

You really want me to admit it was a racist thing.. Like I said, I will think on this. I did just imagine MO in a tracksuit in a park (thought of black people in tracksuits is not one I usually have.. considering I am sat in one atm).. You however did make the connection between black people and tracksuits.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

If we all chant, "*Helen Lewis*" three times, do you think that she will magically turn up?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This is why people like you exist on blogs or 140 characters or less. The back and forth - the testing of your words and thoughts  - doesn't happen there. The getting caught, doesn't happen.



Are you white?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Great, phil parasites on what shouldn't be parasited. No honour.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> If we all chant, "*Helen Lewis*" three times, do you think that she will magically turn up?



I have a visceral reaction to that face.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You really want me to admit it was a racist thing.. Like I said, I will think on this. I did just imagine MO in a tracksuit in a park (thought of black people in tracksuits is not one I usually have.. considering I am sat in one atm).. You however did make the connection between black people and tracksuits.


I think you'll find you were the one who made that connection.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You really want me to admit it was a racist thing.. Like I said, I will think on this. I did just imagine MO in a tracksuit in a park (thought of black people in tracksuits is not one I usually have.. considering I am sat in one atm).. You however did make the connection between black people and tracksuits.


I'm the racist!  Watch this attempted turn-around.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Are you white?


Nay, he's Irish.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Are you white?


No, i'm irish. And i fucking loves bees.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)




----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Absolute and total bullshit, she goes on abut class all the time.  Taken almost at random from Ambreen's blog:
> 
> "Have you ever felt dehumanised on the basis that you are not white and middle *class*? As an ex Muslim working *class *woman of colour with mental and physical disabilities and a queer identity, I have been made to feel subhuman on each of these accounts separately. I cannot reject the experiences of a white working *class* woman but I can remind her that she does not face the risk of death for leaving her religion nor will she be questioned about whether she is a Muslim when she isn’t one, for the rest of her life. Some people don’t even ask if you are a Muslim, they just assume and snarl at you instead. Even white working *class *women have white privilege."
> 
> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/measuring-privilege/



Thanks Phil. Obviously people come to something with preconceptions and refuse to see the whole picture. It's called 'framing' in a white narrative.
*lols to death inside at thought of butchersapron and the t person foaming at the mouth at all the jargon*


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Are you white?


This is one of the worst posts ever on this board.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No, i'm irish. And i fucking loves bees.



What is the colour of your skin?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Nay, he's Irish.


Hang on...!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> What is the colour of your skin?


He's so angry that he doesn't have skin, he's clawed it all off years ago. He's red and black all over.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> What is the colour of your skin?


 
how is this relevant?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> What is the colour of your skin?


This is the worst knock knock ever. Irish.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 4, 2014)

> You really want me to admit it was a racist thing..



He's satirising the process of reading micro-aggression into everyday sentences that people haven't thought through. Tbh Sam you don't know the lay of the land here, I'd probably join others in suggesting you lurk moar.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Well, you tell me why the colour of my skin has been relevant in this country, and I'll tell you why yours is.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> how is this relevant?




suprised it took two pages, we are seeing the texbook intersectionalist arguing methods here. first if you critisice the theory you dismiss the experiences of the individual, then this, then a blog post tomorrow


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> If we all chant, "*Helen Lewis*" three times, do you think that she will magically turn up?



Only if you're a Tory with a wad of cash I think


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Rob Ray said:


> He's satirising the process of reading micro-aggression into everyday sentences that people haven't thought through. Tbh Sam you don't know the lay of the land here, I'd probably join others in suggesting you lurk moar.



Yeah, getting a bit bored of this now


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Well, you tell me why the colour of my skin has been relevant in this country, and I'll tell you why yours is.


Nonsense, racism never existed and doesn't now.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> suprised it took two pages, we are seeing the texbook intersectionalist arguing methods here. first if you critisice the theory you dismiss the experiences of the individual, then this, then a blog post tomorrow



Don't kid yourself you're that important.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nonsense, racism never existed and doesn't now.


Too transparent.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 4, 2014)

Dwyer you do understand the distinction between understanding class and this piss weak "classism" of intersectionality. Class becomes just one oppression amongst others rather than the fabric in which other oppression's are woven, articulated and reproduced. Capital is replaced with the kyiarchy, a  meaningless assemblage of binary oppositions between oppressed and oppressor. 

Intersectionalists treat class as a kind of flat white,male,cis, and straight oppression, that sexism, racism, homophobia and such simply add onto, instead of understanding that racism and sexism in particular are articulated and experienced through class, through lower wages, less access to health care, housing, education etc.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Thanks Phil. Obviously people come to something with preconceptions and refuse to see the whole picture. It's called 'framing' in a white narrative.
> *lols to death inside at thought of butchersapron and the t person foaming at the mouth at all the jargon*



Innit.

For people like them, the content of what you write is unimportant.  I'd be willing to bet that they haven't even glance at your blog.  You simply "tick" all their "boxes."


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Are you white?



Does the veracity of what he is saying change depending on his race?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nonsense, racism never existed and doesn't now.



Piss off.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Dwyer you do understand the distinction between understanding class and this piss weak "classism" of intersectionality. Class becomes just one oppression amongst others rather than the fabric in which other oppression's are woven, articulated and reproduced. Capital is replaced with the kyiarchy, a  meaningless assemblage of binary oppositions between oppressed and oppressor.
> 
> Intersectionalists treat class as a kind of flat white,male,cis, and straight oppression, that sexism, racism, homophobia and such simply add onto, instead of understanding that racism and sexism in particular are articulated and experienced through class, through lower wages, less access to health care, housing, education etc.


That the colour line is a class line. It's so simple.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Thanks Phil. Obviously people come to something with preconceptions and refuse to see the whole picture. It's called 'framing' in a white narrative.


that really isn't an insightful post tho, is it?  All it says is that racism exists, and that being working class doesnt make it go away.  Well, duhh. Class is relegated to a minor position within your lexicon, which is why it doesnt get a mention within the 'white cis heteropatriarchy.' And why you just dont seem to get the point about 'Michelle Obama in a tracksuit'

btw:  you'd rather have Helen Lewis on your side than Dwyer. No, _really_


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Innit.
> 
> For people like them, the content of what you write is unimportant.  I'd be willing to bet that they haven't even glance at your blog.  You simply "tick" all their "boxes."



 Oh, I know I do. They think they're so original *smirk*


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Don't kid yourself you're that important.




I'm aware of my mediocrity


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Does the veracity of what he is saying change depending on his race?



Yes.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Are you white?



Quite an offensive question and get's to the shitty relativist basis for intersectionalist discussion, it is no longer what is argued but who is arguing it that matters, hence the tedious need to assert how shat upon you are in every post.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Dwyer you do understand the distinction between understanding class and this piss weak "classism" of intersectionality.



Yes I do understand that.  But the logical contradiction is between capital and labor, not between social classes.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Yes.



Disappointing


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

Why can't we all get along?


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Yes.



How does that work, then?


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

I don't think Sam is old enough to appreciate that some of us Irish types (800 years of cumulative oppression points right there!) are not exactly strangers to being stopped, searched, having guns pointed at us and all the rest.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam's blog has the sub-headline:

We Exist Together.

Really.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Ok, I'm out. I just needed to see some of the shite firsthand. I'm sure some of you genuinely believe in equality for all and that in order to achieve that, you have to level out the playing field by calling out the inconsistencies. I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can even tho I'm not the educated middle class women you have dismissed me as previously. This entitlement emanating from various individuals on here; have a think on that maybe?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ok, I'm out. I just needed to see some of the shite firsthand. I'm sure some of you genuinely believe in equality for all and that in order to achieve that, you have to level out the playing field by calling out the inconsistencies. I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can even tho I'm not the educated middle class women you have dismissed me as previously. This entitlement emanating from various individuals on here; have a think on that maybe?


You go first.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ok, I'm out. I just needed to see some of the shite firsthand. I'm sure some of you genuinely believe in equality for all and that in order to achieve that, you have to level out the playing field by calling out the inconsistencies. I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can even tho I'm not the educated middle class women you have dismissed me as previously. This entitlement emanating from various individuals on here; have a think on that maybe?



So, how does a person's skin colour relate to their veracity?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> I don't think Sam is old enough to appreciate that some of us Irish types (800 years of cumulative oppression points right there!) are not exactly strangers to being stopped, searched, having guns pointed at us and all the rest.



Seriously, have a ganders at Gerry Adams on Twitter and his adoring fanbase. Almost impossible to believe the IRA were ever a thing. Terrorist means Muslim these days, pure and simple. Next you'll be telling me my culture has been oppressing your culture for the last 800 yrs a la Ciaron Cunt O Reilly cos I "don't look brown enough to be Asian".


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can



Dunno whether to laugh or cry here.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

well its quite simple, who does someone like me have more in common with in terms of conditions of life, life expectancy, amount of money, amount of leisure time,amount of social, financial and political capital. Ariel sharon or the person sitting at the desk next to mine, who happens to be black btw. who does she have more in common with? Our other workmates or someone like Barack Obama?

out of them two who really understands what our lives are like?? Some powerful twat who has been pampered all of their lives or a low income worker like us?

quite simple really.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes I do understand that.  But the logical contradiction is between capital and labor, not between social classes.



and capital hasn't orgainsed labour along racist or sexist lines, pink collar work, the exclusion of women from the wage form and how even now this leads to traditionally female jobs being lower paid. If you wish to flatten the contradiction between capital and labour to such an extent that's your problem and as such I can see why you might think intersectionality is a handy addition but really all you are doing is adding together two impoverished theories.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ok, I'm out. I just needed to see some of the shite firsthand. I'm sure some of you genuinely believe in equality for all and that in order to achieve that, you have to level out the playing field by calling out the inconsistencies. I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can even tho I'm not the educated middle class women you have dismissed me as previously. This entitlement emanating from various individuals on here; have a think on that maybe?


But the thing is, in your hour here, you've contradicted yourself, lied, ignored most of the points being made, and failed to even attempt to develop a rounded argument that makes sense beyond the narrow confines of your blog readers (ie people who largely agree with you anyway.  The easy ones). You dismiss people without knowing a thing about them, and, whats worst, you do it really really badly.  You can write more than 140 characters n here you know, which is what you need to do to develop a plausible argument.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ok, I'm out. I just needed to see some of the shite firsthand. I'm sure some of you genuinely believe in equality for all and that in order to achieve that, you have to level out the playing field by calling out the inconsistencies. I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can even tho I'm not the educated middle class women you have dismissed me as previously. This entitlement emanating from various individuals on here; have a think on that maybe?


Please make sure to update us on whether you were racist about black people and trackies or not.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> But the thing is, in your hour here, you've contradicted yourself, lied, ignored most of the points being made, and failed to even attempt to develop a rounded argument that makes sense beyond the narrow confines of your blog readers (ie people who largely agree with you anyway.  The easy ones). You dismiss people without knowing a thing about them, and, whats worst, you do it really really badly.  You can write more than 140 characters n here you know, which is what you need to do to develop a plausible argument.



You don't think I'm used to being perceived in this way?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Seriously, have a ganders at Gerry Adams on Twitter and his adoring fanbase. Almost impossible to believe the IRA were ever a thing. Terrorist means Muslim these days, pure and simple. Next you'll be telling me my culture has been oppressing your culture for the last 800 yrs a la Ciaron Cunt O Reilly cos I "don't look brown enough to be Asian".



You're British, aren't you? It has.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> But the thing is, in your hour here, you've contradicted yourself, lied, ignored most of the points being made, and failed to even attempt to develop a rounded argument that makes sense beyond the narrow confines of your blog readers (ie people who largely agree with you anyway.  The easy ones). You dismiss people without knowing a thing about them, and, whats worst, you do it really really badly.  You can write more than 140 characters n here you know, which is what you need to do to develop a plausible argument.


This is depressingly similar to what happened when Laurie stopped by.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> and capital hasn't orgainsed labour along racist or sexist lines, pink colour work, the exclusion of women from the wage form and how even now this leads to traditionally female jobs being lower paid. If you wish to flatten the contradiction between capital and labour to such an extent that's your problem and as such I can see why you might think intersectionality is a handy addition but really all you are doing is adding together two impoverished theories.



I think the contradiction between capital and labor has become _internalized.  _Which means there's another politics of subjectivity available apart from identity politics.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You don't think I'm used to being perceived in this way?


what way? I'm sorry, but I dont understand your comment


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Please make sure to update us on whether you were racist about black people and trackies or not.



I will definitely think about this. But you won't.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> This is depressingly similar to what happened when Laurie stopped by.









'Thank you. Drive through...'


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> This is depressingly similar to what happened when Laurie stopped by.


she lasted 63 posts.  It's gonna be close!


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> what way? I'm sorry, but I dont understand your comment



You've said exactly the same things most critics of intersectionality do. I'm one person responding to lots of you and you're gonna beat me round the head with my inconsistencies? Give me strength.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I will definitely think about this. But you won't.


I already did. I reached my conclusion pretty quickly. It was well dodgy but not driven by racial hate, just laziness.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> But the thing is, in your hour here, you've contradicted yourself, lied, ignored most of the points being made, and failed to even attempt to develop a rounded argument that makes sense beyond the narrow confines of your blog readers (ie people who largely agree with you anyway.  The easy ones). You dismiss people without knowing a thing about them, and, whats worst, you do it really really badly.  You can write more than 140 characters n here you know, which is what you need to do to develop a plausible argument.



It's like she's not even taking urban75 seriously


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Doesn't matter what I say, your minds were already made up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You've said exactly the same things most critics of intersectionality do. I'm one person responding to lots of you and you're gonna beat me round the head with my inconsistencies? Give me strength.


Be consistent and you'll beat many posters with one swoop.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You've said exactly the same things most critics of intersectionality do. I'm one person responding to lots of you and you're gonna beat me round the head with my inconsistencies? Give me strength.


sorry, but that doesn't explain what you meant at all. 

And pointing out inconsistencies _should be _ a useful objective for anyone serious about fighting oppression. Its one of the ways we learn.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> It's like she's not even taking urban75 seriously


lol. I think that's the term. Come on regging the name and posting in five minutes.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> It's like she's not even taking urban75 seriously


Au contraire, she's taking it too seriously.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't matter what I say, your minds were already made up.



So, about skin colour and veracity...


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't matter what I say, your minds were already made up.



You said that at the beginning.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You said that at the beginning.



yup


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't matter what I say, your minds were already made up.


And thanks for putting words in our mouths and knowing what we think. It's great, saves us the bother.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> If we all chant, "*Helen Lewis*" three times, do you think that she will magically turn up?


 
please no


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You said that at the beginning.


and she still thinks it.  Which must prove she was right.  Or something.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Seriously, have a ganders at Gerry Adams on Twitter and his adoring fanbase. Almost impossible to believe the IRA were ever a thing. Terrorist means Muslim these days, pure and simple. Next you'll be telling me my culture has been oppressing your culture for the last 800 yrs a la Ciaron Cunt O Reilly cos I "don't look brown enough to be Asian".



Sorry but are you for real? Have you just dismissed the history of anti irish racism, the troubles and sectarianism on the basis of Gerry Adams experience? 

I'm not one for playing the oppressed paddy card but just for a second imagine someone dismissed anti asian racism on the basis that everyone loves Konnie Huq, or that islamophobia doesn't exist after Mo Farah won gold?  

For someone trained in the call out culture of intersectionality you are very very poor at it.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Well, how do you want to play this? With honesty? Or double standards?


----------



## andysays (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't matter what I say, your minds were already made up.





Dexter Deadwood said:


> You said that at the beginning.



One might almost think her mind was already made up...


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Sorry but are you for real? Have you just dismissed the history of anti irish racism, the troubles and sectarianism on the basis of Gerry Adams experience?
> 
> I'm not one for playing the oppressed paddy card but just for a second imagine someone dismissed anti asian racism on the basis that everyone loves Konnie Huq, or that islamophobia doesn't exist after Mo Farah won gold?
> 
> For someone trained in the call out culture of intersectionality you are very very poor at it.



Doesn't feel good does it? To be undermined/dismissed?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Sorry but are you for real? Have you just dismissed the history of anti irish racism, the troubles and sectarianism on the basis of Gerry Adams experience?
> 
> I'm not one for playing the oppressed paddy card but just for a second imagine someone dismissed anti asian racism on the basis that everyone loves Konnie Huq, or that islamophobia doesn't exist after Mo Farah won gold?
> 
> For someone trained in the call out culture of intersectionality you are very very poor at it.


Get it right - double gold.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> And thanks for putting words in our mouths and knowing what we think. It's great, saves us the bother.



Tit. For. Twat.


----------



## sim667 (Feb 4, 2014)

I actually follow and have read some of sams stuffand follow her on twitter, she makes some good comments and assessments, but then sometimes something get spouted out and you just kind of go


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Well, how do you want to play this? With honesty? Or double standards?


What  an odd question. With honesty and not double standards.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Tit. For. Twat.


Little bit sexist there?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What  an odd question. With honesty and not double standards.



""Nonsense, racism never existed and doesn't now." TRY AGAIN.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't feel good does it? To be undermined/dismissed?


This is...nothing...irrelevant drivel.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Little bit sexist there?



Ofc it is if you call it. Just don't let me call anything out, ever.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This is...nothing...irrelevant drivel.



Rich coming from you.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ofc it is if you call it. Just don't let me call anything out, ever.



Fine.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> lol. I think that's the term. Come on regging the name and posting in five minutes.



that was a five liker, at least


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> ""Nonsense, racism never existed and doesn't now." TRY AGAIN.


Now then, why did i say that. There's opp for dialogue here. Not centred around you, but dialogue nonetheless.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

sim667 said:


> I actually follow and have read some of sams stuffand follow her on twitter, she makes some good comments and assessments, but then sometimes something get spouted out and you just kind of go



I am sorry I cannot be perfect. Must not make mistakes like other humans.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Now then, why did i say that. There's opp for dialogue here. Not centred around you, but dialogue nonetheless.



Those words are incredibly hurtful to anyone who has experienced racism. You're being provocative. You tried to bait me.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Those words are incredibly hurtful to anyone who has experienced racism. You're being provocative. You tried to bait me.


Tit for twat, remember?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 4, 2014)

I *highly* recommend that Sam stops reading and posting on this thread, and instead reads and posts on others in this sub-forum. It would useful practice and learning.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Fine.



So full of shit you.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Those words are incredibly hurtful to anyone who has experienced racism. You're being provocative. You tried to bait me.


Accusation of race baiting. This is getting pretty tawdry.

edit: as i mentioned above: trapped. respond = you're a cunt. Ignore = you're a cunt. Explain why you don't want to respond = biggest cunt ever.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't feel good does it? To be undermined/dismissed?



Well firstly I don't take it personally and secondly are you for real, you, an avowed intersectionalist are justifying your arrogant dismissal on the basis that "well I'm oppressed too", is that how things work? Is an unemployed white man allowed to be racist and it can just be deducted from his working class oppression tax credits? Can a black middle class woman deduct her shittiness towards her immigrant cleaner against racism and sexism tax credits she has amassed?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Crispy said:


> I *highly* recommend that Sam stops reading and posting on this thread, and instead reads and posts on others in this sub-forum. It would useful practice and learning.





Sam Ambreen said:


> So full of shit you.


That makes two of us then.


----------



## sim667 (Feb 4, 2014)

Has godwins law been invoked yet?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Tit for twat, remember?



Oh, I'm sorry, I must be magnanimous and polite, rational and reasonable. Speaking in your language, fwiw.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Well firstly I don't take it personally and secondly are you for real, you, an avowed intersectionalist are justifying your arrogant dismissal on the basis that "well I'm oppressed too", is that how things work? Is an unemployed white man allowed to be racist and it can just be deducted from his working class oppression tax credits? Can a black middle class woman deduct her shittiness towards her immigrant cleaner against racism and sexism tax credits she has amassed?


"You've got two points deducted off your privilege license this week!?"


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Oh, I'm sorry, I must be magnanimous and polite, rational and reasonable. Speaking in your language, fwiw.


No, feel free to rage and rant. Honestly. We do it all the time here. Just don't expect special treatment. And again, you came in here guns blazing, what the fuck do you expect?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> No, feel free to rage and rant. Honestly. We do it all the time here. Just don't expect special treatment. And again, you came in here guns blazing, what the fuck do you expect?



I think my reaction to you folks was completely understandable given the shit leveled at me from this hellhole.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Special treatment? Ha!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Oh, I'm sorry, I must be magnanimous and polite, rational and reasonable. Speaking in your language, fwiw.


It's not the way that you're saying things, it's just what you're saying.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I think my reaction to you folks was completely understandable given the shit leveled at me from this hellhole.


Again, how much of this thread have you read?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

Hi Sam Ambreen , welcome to Urban. We're pretty set in our ways here and there are certain things we demand of commentators such as yourself when they're kind enough to come and talk to us. Nobody really knows where these customs come from - it's probably a tradition or an old charter or something (hat tip Rankin) but I really must insist that you adhere to them.

In order not to overwhelm you I won't list them all in this post. But the first thing that's demanded of you is that you call me something deeply unpleasant on twitter, then we have a massive bunfight, followed by legal threats and a telephone conversation between the two of us, the outcome of which you report inaccurately/creatively on twitter.

You up for it?


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> So full of shit you.


and with that post, you at least beat Penny Dreadful


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Hi Sam Ambreen , welcome to Urban. We're pretty set in our ways here and there are certain things we demand of commentators such as yourself when they're kind enough to come and talk to us. Nobody really knows where these customs come from - it's probably a tradition or an old charter or something (hat tip Rankin) but I really must insist that you adhere to them.
> 
> In order not to overwhelm you I won't list them all in this post. But the first thing that's demanded of you is that you call me something deeply unpleasant on twitter, then we have a massive bunfight, followed by legal threats and a telephone conversation between the two of us, the outcome of which you report inaccurately/creatively on twitter.
> 
> You up for it?



Actually, I think Twitter's bored of you already. I don't threaten to sue; I haven't the money.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I think my reaction to you folks was completely understandable given the shit leveled at me from this hellhole.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 4, 2014)




----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Special treatment? Ha!


In all earnestness, what were you hoping for with this exchange? What were your aims, if any?


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

I came here to try and understand. And I do. It's been real.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Skin colour and veracity?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came here to try and understand. And I do. It's been real.


Understand what?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

It's piss-poor. Nation of islam types.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I think my reaction to you folks was completely understandable given the shit leveled at me from this hellhole.


 
one person's _shit leveled at me_ is another person's _critical analysis_.

this is the internet.  you can pretend you never level shit at anyone.  i googled you and learnt about the mary beard affair.  did she show up on your blog and start shouting?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came here to try and understand. And I do. It's been real.


Liar. You go nowhere to understand. You go everywhere looking for validation. Stop lying to yourself.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

I see people... I don't see their class, creed, nationality, race, gender or sexuality.  These things are irrelevant to humanity and the sooner we forget them the better.  All of these stupid divisions are as inconsequential as hair colour, height, intelligence or fashion taste.  Humanity will never achieve its potential because we are obsessed with our differences.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came here to try and confirm all my prejudices. And I have. It's been rubbish.


corrected for you


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

I think she's gone now.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I think she's gone now.


70 posts to LP's 63. I haven't done the qualitative analysis yet.  And I dont think I'll bother.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

We can save.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

It's like those American films where the white girl goes to be a teacher in the poor part of LA


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Serious question for commentariat/twitterati types:

Having turned up, skim read the thread and then decided to stick around for a while, would they have so low an opinion of this thread if it was full of people doing nothing but telling them how wonderful they are? Is it that they genuinely feel they're being unfairly treated or that there isn't enough sycophancy for their liking?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Actually, I think Twitter's bored of you already. I don't threaten to sue; I haven't the money.



Sorry, I obviously didn't explain that very well. I'm the one who's supposed to make legal threats.

Twitter must have a very short attention span, I probably only done about 20 tweets, most of them about farting 

In all seriousness though, welcome - my initial comments were a (probably not very funny) reference to what happened when another twitter commentator turned up. (I assume you're a member of the intersectional twitter milieu anyway. I might be wrong though because, and please don't take this the wrong way, I've never heard of you before). Please do try and see past the abraisive posting style some of us have - we are a bit set in our ways when it comes to that - but if you stick around and engage with us you might like it, and come to realise that although most of us don't have much time for twittersectionalism that doesn't mean we're not strongly committed to ending the oppression that it attempts to deal with. Who knows? We might all even learn something. I've only read your first few posts plus the reply to me so it might have gone downhill since but you already appear to be making a better effort at actually talking to us than certain other commentators have when they've turned up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> It's like those American films where the white girl goes to be a teacher in the poor part of LA


I doubt you'll make 8pm


----------



## sim667 (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> It's like those American films where the white girl goes to be a teacher in the poor part of LA


 
If only we had some kind of montage of her time on urban.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 4, 2014)

Good show all round. Very interesting read, made for a lively hour or so.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I doubt you'll make 8pm



Sam liked my post, whatever happens next I feel validated


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I'm not one for playing the oppressed paddy card


To play along with the intersectionality racket we sort of have to whether we like it or not I think. But it turns out that it's not fair when we score some points. 

And what of say Polish Lithuanian etc people. "Seven attacks in 10 days as racist gang targets Polish community in east Belfast" - Do their experiences matter to the likes of Sam at all?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> It's like those American films where the white girl goes to be a teacher in the poor part of LA




Dangerous Minds. Michelle Pfiefer. Notable only for the use of Coolio's cover of stevie wonders 'past time paradise' (reworked as gangsters paradise)

any more for any more?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

I do wonder if she'll go on Twitter and moan about all the horrible stuff she had to endure in her oh so brief sojourn to these strange shores. Anyone for a bet?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Last seen viewing this thread 1 minute ago.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

I came, I saw, I put my head in my hands and cried.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Serious question for commentariat/twitterati types:
> 
> Having turned up, skim read the thread and then decided to stick around for a while, would they have so low an opinion of this thread if it was full of people doing nothing but telling them how wonderful they are? Is it that they genuinely feel they're being unfairly treated or that there isn't enough sycophancy for their liking?



Well it's wrong on their part to be so hostile, but just like with anyone I don't think people on here engage very well

It doesn't benefit anyone to go on like this, of course these people have wrongheaded ideas but it's not really helping to win forum arguments with them


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I do wonder if she'll go on Twitter and moan about all the horrible stuff she had to endure in her oh so brief sojourn to these strange shores. Anyone for a bet?



Like I said, no one cares about youse


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came, I saw, I put my head in my hands and cried.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Like I said, no one cares about youse


My wife does.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

Well I see Sam Ambreen  didn't reply to my post but its worth repeating, it is (or should be) common sense. Who do you have more in common with in terms of conditions of life etc? Michelle Obama isn't going to be walking down dodgy streets on her own she's gonna be walking past only the nicest ones with her minders and security guards. 

I've got far more in common with the people I live with and the people I work with, no matter what the race or religion they are, than say Ariel Sharon or Benjamin netanyahu or someone like that, because whatever type of discrimination we have to deal with can't be as easily dealt with as what they can, because we earn similar amounts and work in similar conditions and spend a similar amount on food etc.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 4, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


>



*talk to the hand*


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

BTW, Sam, frogwoman is a Jewish lass, in case it wasn't abundantly clear.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> My wife does.



That's not what she tells me.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That's not what she tells me.


Phil, don't fucking talk to me.


----------



## toggle (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sorry, I obviously didn't explain that very well. I'm the one who's supposed to make legal threats.
> 
> Twitter must have a very short attention span, I probably only done about 20 tweets, most of them about farting
> 
> In all seriousness though, welcome - my initial comments were a (probably not very funny) reference to what happened when another twitter commentator turned up. (I assume you're a member of the intersectional twitter milieu anyway. I might be wrong though because, and please don't take this the wrong way, I've never heard of you before). Please do try and see past the abraisive posting style some of us have - we are a bit set in our ways when it comes to that - but if you stick around and engage with us you might like it, and come to realise that although most of us don't have much time for twittersectionalism that doesn't mean we're not strongly committed to ending the oppression that it attempts to deal with. Who knows? We might all even learn something. I've only read your first few posts plus the reply to me so it might have gone downhill since but you already appear to be making a better effort at actually talking to us than certain other commentators have when they've turned up.




well said.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Dangerous Minds. Michelle Pfiefer. Notable only for the use of Coolio's cover of stevie wonders 'past time paradise' (reworked as gangsters paradise)
> 
> any more for any more?



187 was the best one

Admittedly Samuel Jackson was the white girl, it's still awful though, the American school system


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> *talk to the hand*


Talk to the posters. This hiding is beyond silly.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came, I saw, I put my head in my hands and cried.


 
awe, that;'s really sad.  were you hoping we'd all see the error of our various ways and elect you leader of the village and we all got together and put on a musical?


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> Well it's wrong on their part to be so hostile, but just like with anyone I don't think people on here engage very well
> 
> It doesn't benefit anyone to go on like this, of course these people have wrongheaded ideas but it's not really helping to win forum arguments with them



I'm not up for simply releasing the hounds on them, either. By all means let's go for decent debate. But I've asked this one several times, politely, to back up her suggestion that skin colour and veracity are linked and have yet to be answered. That's hardly meaningful engagement, is it?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> awe, that;'s really sad.  were you hoping we'd all see the error of our various ways and elect you leader of the village and we all got together and put on a musical?


That, in fairness, would be AWESOME


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Phil, don't fucking talk to me.



No need to get _angry_.  Jeez.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> *talk to the hand*



Vulpine and scarlet.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> frogwoman is a Jewish lass



Imagine the agonies of PC squirming that went into that phrase.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> That, in fairness, would be AWESOME


 
The Wizard of Oz, with Sam as Dorothy, butchers as the scarecrow, you as the tin man, and phil as the cowardly lion.

the rest of us can be munchkins, to match our intelletual capabilies.  laurie penny can be the wicked witch, helen lewis as the wizard of oz.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> I'm not up for simply releasing the hounds on them, either. By all means let's go for decent debate. But I've asked this one several times, politely, to back up her suggestion that skin colour and veracity are linked and have yet to be answered. That's hardly meaningful engagement, is it?



But it's not going to happen on a forum. This is a thread set up to attack people like her, I was going to say it's confusing why she showed up but then I showed up and it's not even about me

You could email her or something, a decent discussion on a political BBS is more optimistic than Martin Luther Kings most optimistic dreams


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

_Congrats, you have just been used by the phil dwyer firm._


----------



## Balbi (Feb 4, 2014)

Pay no attention to that union rep behind the curtain.


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I deserve better than this.



So do we all.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> frogwoman is a Jewish lass



Truxta is a Norwegian lad.

I can do it too!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> The Wizard of Oz, with Sam as Dorothy, butchers as the scarecrow, you as the tin man, and phil as the cowardly lion.
> 
> the rest of us can be munchkins, to match our intelletual capabilies.  laurie penny can be the wicked witch, helen lewis as the wizard of oz.



who gets to be glinda the good? fabulous dresses


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> The Wizard of Oz, with Sam as Dorothy, butchers as the scarecrow, you as the tin man, and phil as the cowardly lion.
> 
> the rest of us can be munchkins, to match our intelletual capabilies.  laurie penny can be the wicked witch, helen lewis as the wizard of oz.


I'm not actually a farmer, just because i'm from somerset.


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Like I said, no one cares about youse


We are good at waiting if nothing else.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> who gets to be glinda the good? fabulous dresses


spanglechick ?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> who gets to be glinda the good? fabulous dresses


 
looks like you volunteer.  you'd be just _precious_.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not actually a farmer, just because i'm from somerset.


I've felled a few trees in my time tho. And I desire a heart.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> a decent discussion on a political BBS is more optimistic than Martin Luther Kings most optimistic dreams


it can and does happen on these boards...but this one had the odds stacked against it from the off


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not actually a farmer, just because i'm from somerset.


 
i won't tell anyone.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

My housemate is Bangladeshi, my other housemate is from Cumbria. We all live in the same house that's falling apart, all work similar hours, we shop at the same shops and sometimes eat the same food. 

I don't know what the others would say but in terms of whose experience is closer to mine out of my housemates and say David Aaronovitch I think I would say that my housemates experience are closer. Someone like that may have experienced racism but to some extent their class position is such,that it doesn't matter any more. If I have a racist boss I may well have to put up with it until I get another job (which may be never) if David aaronovitch has a racist boss he can write about it in the guardian, its not exactly rocket science is it?


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My housemate is Bangladeshi, my other housemate is from Cumbria. We all live in the same house that's falling apart, all work similar hours, we shop at the same shops and sometimes eat the same food.
> 
> I don't know what the others would say but in terms of whose experience is closer to mine out of my housemates and say David Aaronovitch I think I would say that my housemates experience are closer. Someone like that may have experienced racism but to some extent their class position is such,that it doesn't matter any more. If I have a racist boss I may well have to put up with it until I get another job (which may be never) if David aaronovitch has a racist boss he can write about it in the guardian, its not exactly rocket science is it?



no, it's journalism lol


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> But it's not going to happen on a forum. This is a thread set up to attack people like her, I was going to say it's confusing why she showed up but then I showed up and it's not even about me
> 
> You could email her or something, a decent discussion on a political BBS is more optimistic than Martin Luther Kings most optimistic dreams


 
It wasn't a discussion.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

ach the likes are drying up. when are you going to make another hit

you don't just write a song like creep you know


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not actually a farmer, just because i'm from somerset.


 can you swim?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

I hope sam getting monstered here by anti-racists (etc) might indicate something  to her about how to fight the stuff she wants to fight. I have zero expectation of this happening  though. Waste.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> can you swim?



A Somerset bus conductor, this morning:







'Yep, Yeovil bus station is over there somewhere. Look for the bits that aren't underwater...'


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> can you swim?


The starlings lift me up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ahhh.. Forgive me, but if it sounds like a whining MRA.



perhaps it's obvious to *you* that anyone who you converse with that doesn't toe your line "sounds like a whining MRA", but probably not to people who aren't dancing a sycophantic tango with you.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I hope sam getting monstered here by anti-racists (etc) might indicate something  to her about how to fight the stuff she wants to fight. I have zero expectation of this happening  though. Waste.



She didn't get monstered and I hope that you realise how important your role in the fact that she got absolutely nothing from registering on here is. I have zero expectation of this happening though


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Yeah, this is why mums are not allowed on the internet.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

this is just it, isn't it.  there are real MRAs out there who'd happily have Sam put in a breeding camp.  but in her world there is no difference between a left wing activist who dares to have a disagreement with her opinions is an MRA.  but you can't argue the pros and cons, because the debating ground is twitter where the person who wins is the one who cries "racist" or "sexist" hardest.  this is what the dialectic has come to?

still, now she knows what the people she calls out on twitter feels like, when hundreds of people all pile in to tell someone they're wrong without even knowing what the argument is about


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 4, 2014)

You get out what you put in. She put in for a fight (all the posts i've read have been confrontational) and that's what she got. As for being monstered, she doesn't come out of it well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> Out of the ordinary beliefs are good for society.  Without them we would all be drones.
> I am a Trotskyist, Atheist, Paranoid Schizophrenic and proud of it.



You're proud of being a Trot? 

Isn't that a little bit like being proud you have the biggest arse-boil of anyone in your hometown?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> She didn't get monstered and I hope that you realise how important your role in the fact that she got absolutely nothing from registering on here is. I have zero expectation of this happening though


She wanted nothing but confirmation of her prejudices. She got that by refusing to engage. Are we blameless? No.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2014)

what is an MRA?  Or was that established already?


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchers will be printing out an 'i monstered sam ambreen' stencil for his tshirt to wear down at his revolutionary cafe


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> what is an MRA?  Or was that established already?


Mens' rights activists.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchers will be printing out an 'i monstered sam ambreen' stencil for his tshirt to wear down at his revolutionary cafe


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> butchers will be printing out an 'i monstered sam ambreen' stencil for his tshirt to wear down at his revolutionary cafe


Once is enough eh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.



Hmm, "white people" as a homogeneous group.  Interesting theory.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> butchers will be printing out an 'i monstered sam ambreen' stencil for his tshirt to wear down at his revolutionary cafe


I'm hardly Butchers' biggest fan but Sam isn't exactly in his league. Clubbing baby seals.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> butchers will be printing out an 'i monstered sam ambreen' stencil for his tshirt to wear down at his revolutionary cafe



I prefer to wear a "Watch out, watch out, there's a Humphreys about" t-shirt.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmm, "white people" as a homogeneous group.  Interesting theory.


they're not homogenous.  they come in two types


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> what is an MRA?  Or was that established already?



if you break your leg you have to get an MRA I think


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmm, "white people" as a homogeneous group.  Interesting theory.


You're a homogenous group.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> they're not homogenous.  they come in two types


Those who understand binary and those who don't?


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Ok, I'm out. I just needed to see some of the shite firsthand. I'm sure some of you genuinely believe in equality for all and that in order to achieve that, you have to level out the playing field by calling out the inconsistencies. I am sorry you cannot understand the jargon but I do and it's not my fault I can even tho I'm not the educated middle class women you have dismissed me as previously. This entitlement emanating from various individuals on here; have a think on that maybe?


Fighting every battle from your innermost identity weakens your collective position, opens the floodgates of sectarianism, internecine bitchfests and leaves you with only a tiny part of the class to fight with come the revolution. Have a think on that, maybe?


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2014)

> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.


Interesting how many "I's" there are in this


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 4, 2014)

She ate all the self pity.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Regarding the privilege checking and hierarchy of oppression, if I tick enough demographic boxes can I start collecting free glasses and beermats like in those petrol station loyalty schemes? Five Privilege Points entitles me to a free bottle opener, that kind of thing?


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> what is an MRA?  Or was that established already?



if you break your leg you have to get an MRA I think

it's like an MA for football players


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Regarding the privilege checking and hierarchy of oppression, if I tick enough demographic boxes can I start collecting free glasses and beermats like in those petrol station loyalty schemes? Five Privilege Points entitles me to a free bottle opener, that kind of thing?


Bottle openers are oppressive to people with no hands, you fucking cunt!


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Bottle openers are oppressive to people with no hands, you fucking cunt!



True, but being a reformed drunkard not having my own bottle opener is a right pain in the arse.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 4, 2014)

fogbat said:


> spanglechick ?


*steps into thread, scatters sequins around in a fourth-wave manner, returns to marking*


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> True, but being a reformed drunkard not having my own bottle opener is a right pain in the arse.



You open bottles with your arse? 

Have you ever thought of exhibiting yourself in a freakshow?


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I'm hardly Butchers' biggest fan but Sam isn't exactly in his league. Clubbing baby seals.



What league is that?

Is anyone in that league except him?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> True, but being a reformed drunkard not having my own bottle opener is a right pain in the arse.


*wince*

If you have no bottle opener, you'd be better off using your teeth.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> butchers will be printing out an 'i monstered sam ambreen' stencil for his tshirt to wear down at his revolutionary cafe


Look at the interest dale.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

MRA = Men's Rights Activists.

the ones who think that women run the world etc.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Mens' rights activists.


_Men's _Rights Activists, otherwise the plural would likely be menses, and then where would we be?


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin m8, those pics are huuuge, resize before posting pls? Won't someone think of the small displays.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> If we all chant, "*Helen Lewis*" three times, do you think that she will magically turn up?



I do hope not.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _Men's _Rights Activists, otherwise the plural would likely be menses, and then where would we be?


Touché.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Look at the interest dale.



i'm not dale kieron.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're proud of being a Trot?
> 
> Isn't that a little bit like being proud you have the biggest arse-boil of anyone in your hometown?



What's wrong with being a Trotskyist?


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _Men's _Rights Activists, otherwise the plural would likely be menses, and then where would we be?



getting into JaJa Binks territory here


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> getting into JaJa Binks territory here


JarJar. FFS is nothing sacred?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> i'm not dale kieron.


In that case you are flimsier/slk. And yeah, you are.


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> What's wrong with being a Trotskyist?


you've been here ten years and not worked out what the likely answer to that is??!!

even sam ambreen wasn't that naive


----------



## toggle (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> True, but being a reformed drunkard not having my own bottle opener is a right pain in the arse.



i'm sure we can find some alternative method of opening bottles for you before it gets any more painful


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> What's wrong with being a Trotskyist?


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Well, if it's a screw top bottle then I just clench it in place and twist.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> In that case you are flimsier/slk. And yeah, you are.



I'm Geri, go and get a job you fat cunt


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Well, if it's a screw top bottle then I just clench it in place and twist.


sorry, are we on mouth or arse here?


----------



## toggle (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Well, if it's a screw top bottle then I just clench it in place and twist.




while i reach for the camera?


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmm, "white people" as a homogeneous group.  Interesting theory.



Particularly as she chose a glaswegian to contrast with, she never heard of anti-catholicism in Glasgow? Or people changing their names because of it? Or that the wrong name for sure got you pulled up by Special Branch at an airport?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> Particularly as she chose a glaswegian to contrast with, she never heard of anti-catholicism in Glasgow? Or people changing their names because of it? Or that the wrong name for sure got you pulled up by Special Branch at an airport?


That was my choice actually.


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is just it, isn't it.  there are real MRAs out there who'd happily have Sam put in a breeding camp.  but in her world there is no difference between a left wing activist who dares to have a disagreement with her opinions is an MRA.  but you can't argue the pros and cons, because the debating ground is twitter where the person who wins is the one who cries "racist" or "sexist" hardest.  this is what the dialectic has come to?


 I imagine that she probably gets a lot of abuse from MRAs and other acronyms on twitter that probably outweigh any criticism from the left around the sort of issues on this thread. That criticism can then be lumped in with all the abuse. I don't think all the "Men waah" shit from a few pages back helps things, either as an answer or as a mindset.


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> That was my choice actually.



Yes - but she started all the stuff about how he wouldn't have ever been pulled at the airport/had to change his name etc etc


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> Yes - but she started all the stuff about how he wouldn't have ever been pulled at the airport/had to change his name etc etc


True.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Seriously, have a ganders at Gerry Adams on Twitter and his adoring fanbase. Almost impossible to believe the IRA were ever a thing. Terrorist means Muslim these days, pure and simple. Next you'll be telling me my culture has been oppressing your culture for the last 800 yrs a la Ciaron Cunt O Reilly cos I "don't look brown enough to be Asian".



Last time I checked, the provisions of the extant legislations with regard to terrorism showed that "Muslim" and "Terrorist" aren't synonymous (except perhaps to elements of the media and their readership), so not quite "pure and simple".


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Last time I checked, the provisions of the extant legislations with regard to terrorism showed that "Muslim" and "Terrorist" aren't synonymous (except perhaps to elements of the media and their readership), so not quite "pure and simple".



But also "these days" - yes some truth there, but it'll be the chinese (or whoever) in ten years. Just because you're the victim du jour doesn't make your experience unique.


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> What's wrong with being a Trotskyist?


They see class.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

sim667 said:


> Has godwins law been invoked yet?



No, but frankly I've *always* believed that you're worse than the Nazis, you swine!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> Just because you're the victim du jour doesn't make your experience unique.



The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> They see class.


But is the class they see half-full or half-empty?


----------



## toggle (Feb 4, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> I imagine that she probably gets a lot of abuse from MRAs and other acronyms on twitter that probably outweigh any criticism from the left around the sort of issues on this thread.




nods. there is a result of that barrage of abuse that leads commentariati to build up walls to protect themselves from that, but in practice it looks little different to a deliberately arrogant refusal to engage with any criticism outside their own circle.


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

It was more fun with Sam on here


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> But also "these days" - yes some truth there, but it'll be the chinese (or whoever) in ten years. Just because you're the victim du jour doesn't make your experience unique.



Yup. 100-120 years ago it was my mob (eastern European Jews) and the Irish getting the shitty end of the stick because a tiny minority of us happened to think London would look better remodelled with a little bit of dynamite.  Then it was German "fifth columnists" and the Irish, then just the Irish for a long old time.  The state will always have an enemy, and if the traditional ones disappear, why then they'll just manufacture a new one!


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing



As written in one of the letters allegedly written by Jack the Ripper, IIRC.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> I see people... I don't see their class, creed, nationality, race, gender or sexuality.  These things are irrelevant to humanity and the sooner we forget them the better.  All of these stupid divisions are as inconsequential as hair colour, height, intelligence or fashion taste.  Humanity will never achieve its potential because we are obsessed with our differences.



Fucking hippy!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> As written in one of the letters allegedly written by Jack the Ripper, IIRC.



With another comment on a wall near a victim's body, that the then commissioner of the Met removed from the wall with his hankerchief.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Imagine the agonies of PC squirming that went into that phrase.



Imagine you weren't a smug, self-satisfied shitsack.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My housemate is Bangladeshi, my other housemate is from Cumbria. We all live in the same house that's falling apart, all work similar hours, we shop at the same shops and sometimes eat the same food.
> 
> I don't know what the others would say but in terms of whose experience is closer to mine out of my housemates and say David Aaronovitch I think I would say that my housemates experience are closer. Someone like that may have experienced racism but to some extent their class position is such,that it doesn't matter any more. If I have a racist boss I may well have to put up with it until I get another job (which may be never) if David aaronovitch has a racist boss he can write about it in the guardian, its not exactly rocket science is it?



I see the words "David Aaronovich", and I think to myself "at least his brother Ben is a decent bloke (and a good fiction author)".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> ach the likes are drying up. when are you going to make another hit
> 
> you don't just write a song like creep you know



Or even a song like "hit the bottle".


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Like I said, no one cares about youse


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

very funny violent panda. very funny


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> *talk to the hand*


it's this sort of closely argued post which typifies the cut and thrust of debate here on urban.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...epresent-every-woman-and-why-it-shouldnt-have

Laurie Penny on _Girls_ and Lena Dunham. TRIGGER WARNING


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> they're not homogenous.  they come in two types



*I* know they're not homogeneous.
*You* know they're not homogeneous.
Some people *don't* know that they're not homogeneous, or at least don't care to know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> You're a homogenous group.



I am indeed.  I contain identical multitudes.  I am Legion!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> No.. I have a blog that is frequently linked to from this site.


and the comments on it are generally disparaging


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> getting into JaJa Binks territory here



Gollum territory, you dick.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I am indeed.  I contain identical multitudes.  I am Legion!!!


Greebo get the exorcism kit out, pronto!

*Deus, in nómine tuo salvum me fac,
et virtúte tua age causam meam.
Deus, audi oratiónem meam;
áuribus pércipe verba oris mei.

Nam supérbi insurréxunt contra me, et violénti quasiérunt vitam meam;
non proposuérunt Deum ante óculos suos.

Ecce, Deus ádjuvat me,
óminus susténtat vitam meam.

Retórque malum in adversários meos,
et pro fidelitáte tua déstrue ilos.

Voluntárie sacrificábo tibi,
celebrábo nomen tuum, Dómine, quia bonum est.

Nam ex omni tribulatióne eripuit me,
et inimícos meos confúsos vidit óculos meus
*


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> *I* know they're not homogeneous.
> *You* know they're not homogeneous.
> Some people *don't* know that they're not homogeneous, or at least don't care to know.



that was quite funny to be fair


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> What's wrong with being a Trotskyist?



Besides the arrogance inherent to vanguardism?


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

most bullies don't realise that they are bullies.

they were bullied and they don't realise how sick it is what they are doing because that is how they relate to people. noone wants to be horrible, it just takes a lot to have that level of awareness to see yourself from the 3rd person.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Greebo get the exorcism kit out, pronto!
> 
> *Deus, in nómine tuo salvum me fac,
> et virtúte tua age causam meam.
> ...



Only works on Christians, dear boy!


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I am indeed.  I contain identical multitudes.  I am Legion!!!



VP, yesterday:


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Greebo get the exorcism kit out, pronto!
> 
> *Deus, in nómine tuo salvum me fac,
> et virtúte tua age causam meam.
> ...


Les cloîtres anciens sur leurs grandes murailles
Etalaient en tableaux la sainte Vérité,
Dont l'effet réchauffant les pieuses entrailles,
Tempérait la froideur de leur austérité.

En ces temps où du Christ florissaient les semailles,
Plus d'un illustre moine, aujourd'hui peu cité,
Prenant pour atelier le champ des funérailles,
Glorifiait la Mort avec simplicité.

— Mon âme est un tombeau que, mauvais cénobite,
Depuis l'éternité je parcours et j'habite;
Rien n'embellit les murs de ce cloître odieux.

Ô moine fainéant! quand saurai-je donc faire
Du spectacle vivant de ma triste misère
Le travail de mes mains et l'amour de mes yeux?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> They see class.



It's not the analysis, it's the "we will lead the proles to a better world"ism that peeves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> VP, yesterday:







vp tomorrow


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>




Christ but I've always hated the Anti-Nowhere League, the Tonbridge tossrags!


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> vp tomorrow



Does he do requests? A bit of Deep Purple or Iron Butterfly, perhaps?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Greebo get the exorcism kit out, pronto!



She's at her Polish-language class this evening, so she won't be able to cast out my demons for (looks at watch) at least a couple of hours.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> vp tomorrow



That's actually my near-twin fogbat .  You can tell it's him by the disproportionate smallness of the hands.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Does he do requests? A bit of Deep Purple or Iron Butterfly, perhaps?



You hum it, I'll play it!


----------



## startalk (Feb 4, 2014)

great politics guys


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2014)

If you can manage the organ and keyboards from this, I'll be impressed:


----------



## weepiper (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Seriously, have a ganders at Gerry Adams on Twitter and his adoring fanbase. Almost impossible to believe the IRA were ever a thing. *Terrorist means Muslim these days, pure and simple. *Next you'll be telling me my culture has been oppressing your culture for the last 800 yrs a la Ciaron Cunt O Reilly cos I "don't look brown enough to be Asian".



Really? Tell that to a Celtic fan in Glasgow. Especially if they have an Irish sounding name. FYI the discrimination based on your Irish background here is alive and strong. I know of one man who had the police writing a letter to the council asking them to refuse his application to renew a taxi license  because he was a member of a group of Celtic fans with Irish republican sympathies, that is they are well-known for singing songs about the Hunger Strikers at the football. That's it. No criminal record, nothing.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're proud of being a Trot?
> 
> Isn't that a little bit like being proud you have the biggest arse-boil of anyone in your hometown?



A trot who, according to an earlier post, thinks we should stop talking about class and that cos we're all just human beings or something 

I really would be proud to have the biggest arse boil in town tbh but then again I'm a bit fucking weird.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmm, "white people" as a homogeneous group.  Interesting theory.



It's almost like she's conflating the terms 'white people' and 'racists' isn't it?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen is basically a faux radical Liz Jones


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Black people and trackies


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 4, 2014)

I see you've all had a fun day.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm glad I was fast asleep this afternoon.


----------



## Limerick Red (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> All I'm saying is I will not fight the class war at the expense of all the others.


Hi Sam, guess ya probably won't be back here,but I'm genuinely curious about this remark, any chance ya could expand on it a wee bit.
I'm not too well up on intersectional politics as alluded to on here,but have a wee bit of an idea.Surely (as an anarchist or communist) that all struggle are essentially smaller parts of the class struggle.from my little glimpses of intersectional politics I've seen linked to on here, it seems quite the opposite,that these individual struggles are the end in themselves.again being completely genuine,what am I missing here?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> It's almost like she's conflating the terms 'white people' and 'racists' isn't it?



Almost, but not quite.
I mean, I'd have sympathy with "people _per se_ = racists" (in that we're all capable of it), and I have sympathy with the view that in a predominantly-"white" culture, the asymmetry in terms of power between "white" and "non-white" can be daunting, the more so when you add in other cross-cutting oppressions, but that doesn't mean that the asymmetry is insurmountable.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> sorry, are we on mouth or arse here?



Can't you tell the difference? [joke about suppositories or something that I can't be arsed to work out properly]


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You know the term 'microagression'? It means a pattern of behaviour that is recognised as being oppressive, like being baited for example, or having words put into your mouth.


who elected committee that recognises?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Sam Ambreen is basically a faux radical Liz Jones



Unkind and unfair.  Sam mentioned nothing about a BME partner/ex-partner, nor living in a country house and being surrounded by yokel fuckwits (I'm paraphrasing), or horses, or having breast reduction surgery, or self-loathing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Black people and trackies



Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> As written in one of the letters allegedly written by Jack the Ripper, IIRC.



Chalked onto the wall above where one of his victims was found I thought?

Edit: VP beat me to it


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

So which twatter celebrity will be gracing these boards next then? I'd like to see either Owen Jones (who I must confess to having a bit of time for) or Mehdi Hassan (sp?). I think we've used the patriarchy to bully far to many women twitterists off here so I reckon it's the turn of the menfolk now.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Michael Owen


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Michael Owen





David Hirst. Would a worked darn't pit in't tarn if he wasn't a footballer - an experience that I expect would make him an expert on oppression, especially the classism.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Shot that could snap a cross bar


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> So which twatter celebrity will be gracing these boards next then? I'd like to see either Owen Jones (who I must confess to having a bit of time for) or Mehdi Hassan (sp?). I think we've used the patriarchy to bully far to many women twitterists off here so I reckon it's the turn of the menfolk now.


Crack comedy fiction writer Mark Leyner followed PD for reasons that are not entirely clear. Not prolific enough to be qualify as a twitter celebrity perhaps, but chances are he'd be a right good laugh. However I'm sure we could find some reason or other to hound him off before 100 posts or so.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Michael Owen


A rich white man


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)




----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> Crack comedy fiction writer Mark Leyner followed PD for reasons that are not entirely clear. Not prolific enough to be qualify as a twitter celebrity perhaps, but chances are he'd be a right good laugh. However I'm sure we could find some reason or other to hound him off before 100 posts or so.



Or Ken Mcleod maybe?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You know the term 'microagression'? It means a pattern of behaviour that is recognised as being oppressive, like being baited for example, or having words put into your mouth.


Welcome to Urban Sam! You will probably find most mention of you in the discussion on the 2013 Anarchist bookfair in this forum. 

You have put a lot of words in peoples mouths and it's probably better you use the quote function to er quote what posters have actually wrote rather than paraphrasing their words or simply making stuff up.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> A trot who, according to an earlier post, thinks we should stop talking about class and that cos we're all just human beings or something
> 
> I really would be proud to have the biggest arse boil in town tbh but then again I'm a bit fucking weird.


Sarcasm too dry for you?  Fine, I'll throw some vodka on it.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 4, 2014)

Did sam manage to ever write a post here which broke 140 characters?


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Or Ken Mcleod maybe?


Yes, we could flesh out his apparently untapped "creationist communism" idea.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> Yes, we could flesh out his apparently untapped "creationist communism" idea.


I've just started fractions thing and really  enjoying it - don't ruin it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came, I saw, I put my head in my hands and cried.




Veni, vidi, vultus palma?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Or Ken Mcleod maybe?




he has still yet to be taken to task over his misreading of posadas iirc


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2014)

startalk said:


> I'm Geri, go and get a job you fat cunt


Flimsier I think. Do you want discussion of your worst behaviour on here? Really?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I'm glad I was fast asleep this afternoon.



if that's not white privilege i don't know what is.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

This is non-insomniac privilege


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> if that's not white privilege i don't know what is.



How DARE you assume sb is white?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2014)

Where's the PD intersectionality wheel when you need it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> This is non-insomniac privilege




big meal/spliff. There is literally no greater sleep aid than that without dipping into heavy shit like zoppies. And they pills solutions make the getting up next morning a complete nightmare


----------



## rekil (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I've just started fractions thing and really  enjoying it - don't ruin it.


I couldn't if i tried. I read most of his stuff at a time when I'd bring a book to the pub after work. The better the book was, the longer I'd stay in the pub. I can hardly remember a thing about the four fall revolution ones.


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 4, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> if that's not white privilege i don't know what is.



and if *that's* not white privilege etc


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Where's the PD intersectionality wheel when you need it?




we don't have our own one, we have the one you couldn't make up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> we have the one you couldn't make up.



The Axes of Littlejohn


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

its good that working class poor is on the spoke right next to unattractive though, it means I have two spoke in the same sector ftw


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its good that working class poor is on the spoke right next to unattractive though, it means I have two spoke in the same sector ftw


I'm tempted to gift you ‘English as a second language’ as well


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm tempted to gift you ‘English as a second language’ as well




second best is your lot from me david, you know that. If theres money or validation in it then one tries harder


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

I love how 'old' and 'unattractive' are spokes at all.

Imagine someone going to the back and letting you speak at the progressive stack because of their attractiveness privilege compared to you  

'Oh no, you can talk, you're uglier than me' 

No


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2014)

Would Dale/kieron, flimsier/ butchers please provide chapter and verse?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Would Dale/kieron, flimsier/ butchers please provide chapter and verse?


wtf?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Would XXXXXXXXX, flimsier/ butchers please provide chapter and verse?


What's with the use of real names?


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 4, 2014)

Wow


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I love how 'old' and 'unattractive' are spokes at all.
> 
> Imagine someone going to the back and letting you speak at the progressive stack because of their attractiveness privilege compared to you
> 
> ...


old is very contradictory as well. just as common is for intersectionalists to complain about being ignored because they are too young


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I love how 'old' and 'unattractive' are spokes at all.
> 
> Imagine someone going to the back and letting you speak at the progressive stack because of their attractiveness privilege compared to you
> 
> ...




attractiveness is a value judgement as well so what is its worth in such a diagram? You're fit, I'm sadly not. Value judgement- various hollywood women are held up as examples of beauty when sometimes they aren't to my_ personal tastes
_
So its arbitrary notions based on not much 

there is so much wrong with that wheel, the only truth is that the central bit looks like a puckered anus radiating stuff.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> Wow


----------



## Dale. (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Would Dale/kieron, flimsier/ butchers please provide chapter and verse?



Eh? I've never heard of Sam before, thought it was all a bit pointless to be honest. Not sure what you're trying to do here. 

(Star talk wasn't me, boss.)


----------



## Dale. (Feb 4, 2014)

Killed time on a bus journey though, next time can you be less abrasive when you reel someone in?  That way they may stick around and you'll get the discussion you're after.

Bye!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Would Dale/kieron, flimsier/ butchers please provide chapter and verse?




you are so off beam here you are practically dredging an inland sea for the beams used to make an original viking dragonship


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

And now we  get someone _pretending to be firky._ The circle is complete.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 4, 2014)

Well, this is dull.


----------



## Dale. (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And now we  get someone _pretending to be firky._ The circle is complete.



Nah, it's really me boss. I just hate articul8 more than you hate me.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2014)

Dale. said:


> Nah, it's really me boss. I just hate articul8 more than you hate me.


I am pissed and the room is revolving.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Dale. said:


> Nah, it's really me boss. I just hate articul8 more than you hate me.


No it ain't.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> I am pissed and the room is revolving.


No it ain't. That's just your employers.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2014)

Shaking the earth, maybe


----------



## Cleggy (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No it ain't.



if the boss says it ain't you, it ain't you


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

Who are all this lot then?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 4, 2014)




----------



## Cleggy (Feb 4, 2014)

I posted here yonks ago, I'm not banned just lost my other account e mail passwords etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Ern's fav chocolatier. Get to fuck. There is no point to you doing this.


----------



## Stalin (Feb 4, 2014)

Hi boss. I love chocolate. Do you?


----------



## Stalin (Feb 4, 2014)

Do you like it when I 'frogwoman, greebo, fbob like' your posts, boss?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

What is it about only listing the oppressed spokes of the wheel, too?

fogbat, English as a second language, unattractive, oldio, person with disabilities, gender deviant.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Stalin said:


> Hi boss. I love chocolate. Do you?



You're definitely going to win this time.


----------



## Stalin (Feb 4, 2014)

Streams, Dale, don't cross the 'streams'. FFS. 'BEAMS' LOL


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2014)

Stalin said:


> Do you like it when I 'frogwoman, greebo, fbob like' your posts, boss?


Why don't you fuck off?


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

Is it really the firky/ern blob?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> Is it really the firky/ern blob?


I reckon so.


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I reckon so.



This thread is like a flame to internet moths.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> This thread is like a flame to internet moths.


I can see this one burning a fiery death in a few pages to be honest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> I am pissed and the room is revolving.


you fucking lightweight


----------



## Greebo (Feb 4, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Greebo get the exorcism kit out, pronto! <snip>


Sorry about the delay old chap.  As it is, I'm a tad low on energy at the moment (head full of foreign and still being processed) so I'm afraid I'll have to delegate to Pickman's model.


----------



## Cleggy (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Ern's fav chocolatier. Get to fuck. There is no point to you doing this.



What are you on about?


It's Darren aka Daz Boss from MATB, what are you on about? I saw the Dale post and could not help laugh at your total 'Boss' response, telling some one who they are or not are.


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I can see this one burning a fiery death in a few pages to be honest.



before it does, please someone tell me where the archive video politico thread is.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

God, this is dull. You're (technically) grown men.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

Edited. My apologies, that was completely unnecessary.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Is marriage to _angel_  really that dull?


It's/they're not him //


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> It's/they're not him //



If so, then I completely apologise to _angel_. I take it back. 

It's hard to tell the obsessive weirdos apart, tbh.


----------



## Cleggy (Feb 4, 2014)

I would not have a clue about been married to Angel, is the paranoia that bad, is everyone someone mysterious or could i really be just who I say I am.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 4, 2014)

fogbat said:


> It's hard to tell the obsessive weirdos apart, tbh.



A fitting obituary to the thread.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Cleggy said:


> I would not have a clue about been married to Angel, is the paranoia that bad, is everyone someone mysterious or could i really be just who I say I am.


Sign back in as Cornetto if you're really daz power. Get a password reminder


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> A fitting obituary to the thread.


To me, too.


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

So Sam Ambreen is firky, right?


----------



## Cleggy (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> Sign back in as Cornetto if you're really daz power. Get a password reminder



yeah I cant remember the frigging e mail and I had this account linked to my work e mail, I only really read bits now and again. I have this saved to my lap top and can't be arsed changing it all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

TopCat said:


> Flimsier I think. Do you want discussion of your worst behaviour on here? Really?



Wouldn't you need to start a new thread to fit it all in?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 4, 2014)

TopCat said:


> Flimsier I think. Do you want discussion of your worst behaviour on here? Really?



Yes please.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

Cleggy said:


> yeah I cant remember the frigging e mail and I had this account linked to my work e mail, I only really read bits now and again. I have this saved to my lap top and can't be arsed changing it all.


PM a mod or summat otherwise you'll end up like Wilf


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> big meal/spliff. There is literally no greater sleep aid than that without dipping into heavy shit like zoppies. And they pills solutions make the getting up next morning a complete nightmare



Plus zopiclone leaves your mouth the next day tasting like you're sucking a copper coin.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Would Dale/kieron, flimsier/ butchers please provide chapter and verse?



Dale is firky, you knob.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 4, 2014)

co-op said:


> So Sam Ambreen is firky, right?




his sins aside, he'd have pressed more buttons. This was actually her. And I feel bad for her cos I have an eternally bleeding heart- its not the way she argued as much as she didn't get that this isn't twitter. And wouldn't. Given some perusal of the site and the discoursive nature of bbs she might have been able to mount a blistering argument but what happened was just...fucking shit.

I was particularly annoyed when she recounted her experiences as a dusky hued female and followed it up with a pre-emption at how that post would be taken. People here show the minutea of their fucking lives, I do and so do others. The twittersumption that we'd dismiss her experiences, that we'd not know of or experienced similar. Cos what? all white males? ffs


----------



## co-op (Feb 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> This was actually her.





I know


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 4, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> Doesn't matter what I say/do, you already have a picture drawn up in your head about how I'm a spoilt middle class brat with an unhealthy self love.



I don't, I have absolutely no idea who you are  You've probably gone now anyway.


----------



## xenon (Feb 4, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Yes please.




Malicious lady impersonator and all round shit tank wasn't it?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wouldn't you need to start a new thread to fit it all in?


I could just say maladjusted malicious cunt who takes no responsibility for the evil shit he causes? Who also balances on the edge of a precipice of his own making?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2014)

xenon said:


> Malicious lady impersonator and all round shit tank wasn't it?


Much much worse than this, it truly is possible.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2014)

Come back Sam Ambreen , there is much to discuss....


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If Michelle Obama was walking down the street in a tracksuit, she'd still get spat at for being black. When she's in the White House, yeah, weejy bloke is signifcantly less well off. Me and him tho, he won't ever get stopped at an airport for having a Jihadi sounding name (as I frequently am). He won't ever need to change his name just so he can get a job (which I have had to do). He won't struggle to find his place in a culture because his skin says he is a native. Half the time white people hiss at me for looking like a Paki and the other half they're moaning I'm too light skinned to suffer racism. All the while, I inhabit this shell in a state of confusion and fear. I deserve better than this.



He hasn't got a job though, and he can't afford a plane ticket.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> You don't think I'm used to being perceived in this way?



As inarticulate and lazy?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not the analysis, it's the "we will lead the proles to a better world"ism that peeves.



Yeah, that is annoying. We will though, and you'll either have to follow us or sulk.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

TopCat said:


> Much much worse than this, it truly is possible.



whoah whoah whoah...lady impersonator?

Also, DAMN being busy when all the fun happened! Why do you all have so much free time during the day?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/for-my-fans-at-urban75/


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 5, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> whoah whoah whoah...lady impersonator?
> 
> Also, DAMN being busy when all the fun happened! Why do you all have so much free time during the day?


 We work.


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I came, I saw, I put my head in my hands and cried.


I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good to be honest. I don't think either side put forward arguments well or in a way that was likely to function as good communication with the other side.

In case Sam comes back, here's an answer that might be a bit more readable than the aggression she encountered. I've actually liked the intersectionalist theories I've read and I suspect some people on here have as well. A big problem with the twittersectionalists people have here is they somehow manage to downplay class constantly (and this point was put to you a bit but quite aggressively). I don't think intersectionalist theory has to be used in that way. And you, Sam, if you ever look back in here, seem to have joined a blogosphere/twittersphere group that probably doesn't want to think about class for a reason: that they are the beneficiaries in that game. You yourself may not be and I'm happy to take your word for that. But you've become part of a little internet scene and there are reasons people here have a problem with that scene. I couldn't necessarily say those people are on the wrong side of the capital-labour divide, but as high-end waged workers they may be in an incredibly comfortable position - and I have been told off recently for 'wrong' views on intersectionalism by a black woman who's parents have a small property empire (true story). I didn't think much of her position I can tell you. I think what she was doing was divisive but did it really *matter* to her as much as to someone who really needs political struggle to have a decent standard of living? I'm sure you are different from some of the other participants in that scene, but you could think a bit more about what you've become part of - why it is that class is not discussed much.

We're (nearly) all being fucked, Sam. Some to differing degrees and in differing ways, but we *are* all being fucked and that is why class arguments matter. That doesn't mean race, gender etc issues should be ignored or that class trumps all. But it's pretty fucking important and this is not reflected much in the twittersphere you are part of.

And the second major point. I don't mind certain statements that could come out of privilege theory. There are people here who are hardline against it but I can see some reason for it. But again where it has led lately in the groups you have been frequenting is deeply problematic. I would have no issue with the statements "White people should listen more to the experiences of black people" or "men should listen more to women." They are general statements that confront some power dynamics in our society. However to move from that to say that, say, a white person should always bow to the opinion of a black person on race issues, or that someone with a certain skin colour does not have a right to an opinion on certain issues, is a brutal and nasty leap of logic. It also does not chime with people's experience, since I'm sure white people here have met black people who say 'I don't think racism is an issue - black people should stop moaning about it' or women who are anti-feminist. But there is more to it than that. The leap from a general statement about power dynamics (as above) to saying that each _individual _takes on their oppressed-race or oppressed-gender role when they speak on those issues is actually quite horrendous. It is not much better than race essentialism or gender essentialism. It has progressed from those to a 'race experience' essentialism or a 'gender experience' essentialism that ignores the wildly differing experiences people might have, the wildly differing reactions they might have, and ignores all the ways in which people who are oppressed might become complicit in their oppression (perhaps for reasonable, perhaps for selfish reasons) and all the ways in which one can learn to empathise across oppressed groups. It also assumes that you can *spot* the forms of oppression a person is subject to, or even that you can ask them what their oppressions are and get a full answer (you can't).

In addition, we have to develop discourse among ourselves collectively and we are all participants in that. Most of us have had quite enough of being told to shut up by those in power, or being ignored because we don't matter. Having our allies telling us to shut up because of our skin colour is not going to create a struggle we can be part of. Being told to be a bit quieter so others can speak - that I can deal with - being told my opinion on anti-racist struggles doesn't matter if I try to put myself on the lines in that struggle? That doesn't work for me, and nor will it work for millions of other people who you are potentially putting off political action with this line of logic.

Hope that helps. Really.


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 5, 2014)

And if it's any comfort Sam, butchersapron is like that with me too and lots of other people. 

And for others on this thread, I feel his aggressive attitude mode of argument often shades into bullying, have said as much here, and wish people would call him out on it here more. He is one of the reasons I post on the politics forums much less than I used to.

Some people here let him get on with it because he *is* politically knowledgeable and because when he can be arsed he can put forward a good political argument. Unfortunately he prefers aggressive obscurantism as his mode of communication and I wish people woudn't cheer him on when he does it. I know he will have been in groups where people address how we communicate and how that can exclude people, so these points will have been raised with him by others I'm sure - so there's no excuse, he just decided years ago to communicate like an arse. I don't find it acceptable even if lots of people on here do.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

belboid said:


> old is very contradictory as well. just as common is for intersectionalists to complain about being ignored because they are too young


Yep. and the student ones, in my experience, appear to think that ageist abuse leveled against anyone over about 30 is perfectly acceptable, if not to be encouraged. Usually the same (always white) people who think referring to white people as crackers (I had to ask what that one meant) and honkies. 
I don't think anyone's really offended or threatened by this nonsense, its not as if middle aged white people are gonna become an oppressed group anytime soon and apart from anything else it usually comes from people for whom left politics is all about proving how much more wadical they are than everyone else, never got beyond the 'I won't eat my greens mum' stage of rebellion, and are impossible to take seriously. but its fucking annoying and, as the most vocal and visible part of the student left, can give the impression that serious progressives are like that too. 

A couple of them called me a wacist for telling a fart joke the other day lol


----------



## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

.


SpackleFrog said:


> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/for-my-fans-at-urban75/


 Steven Wells invented the word "saddo", according to David Quantick's obituary. Not a lot of people know that.  #Boringface


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## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

Quantick has left the building!?


----------



## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> I would have no issue with the statements "White people should listen more to the experiences of black people" or "men should listen more to women." They are general statements that confront some power dynamics in our society.



Good post imo but I get nervous about statements like this one. As soon as you generalise into "men should listen more to women" you're on the road to intersectionalist top trumps. There are men out there who need to listen less, and women who need to listen more and there's every shade in between. I had a housemate years ago who was convinced he was Mr Anti-Sexist but who I thought was just hen-pecked - he always gave more credence to what a woman thought than what he felt/believed/thought himself and it meant he ended up surrounded by bossy pissed off women who made his life hell and who probably needed to do a bit of listening to him. 

And saying that _doesn't deny_ that women are oppressed in ways that men aren't or aren't (as a group) oppressed more, but for me, their primary oppression will be their lesser access to power (economic and thus political) within a hierarchical system. But obviously individual women within that system can exert all sorts of power if they happen to be lucky enough to get access to the higher levels. Flatten that hierarchy and all groups who have been excluded from access to resources automatically gain greater relative respect and parity. The more you flatten, the greater the parity. I mean even in the post-war social democratic era, which was hardly a full-on revolutionary redistribution of power, there was a flattening of inequality and very spontaneously all sorts of marginalised groups began to demand political rights commensurate with their new economic ones. Gay rights, womens rights, civil rights of all kinds were not being handed down from above by the state-municipal socialism of the old Labour Party they were being demanded from below.

I have no problem with terms like "patriachy" (if I understand it right, and I'm never too sure about this kind of word) but - to me - it seems obvious that "men" as a group don't greatly benefit from patriarchy. Yes they gain certain sorts of autonomy - eg sexual - which are denied to women, but in return they are denied the right to whole areas of emotional life and are expected to constantly compete with each other in self-denying, life-shrinking machismo (I coach young men football and see this all the time). They also get sent to Afghanistan and Iraq or whatever to kill each other - yes for economic reasons (it's a job) but underwritten by the need to prove something to themselves about their own masculinity.


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## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Quantick has left the building!?


That's how it reads doesn't it. Quantick's obituary of Swells obv.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen called us saddos in her blog. That is the ableism, oppressing depressed people.


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## revol68 (Feb 5, 2014)

yeah shit like #DIECISSCUM #KILLALLMEN doing the rounds is just hilarious, when they get called on it they spout shit about "ahh poor oppressed cis/men" as if this crap is actually a threat to straight white male hegemony, when infact it only serves to make a joke to critiques of it. 

The other thing they miss is that whilst they happily sit in a corner of the left spouting this relativist identity politics crap they miss the fact that real racists and sexists are using the exact same shitty arguments. Racists and sexists no longer proclaim their superiority, they instead moan that they are the new oppressed minority and fuck any appeal to reason or attempt to grapple with facts as it's all about their experience. Pulling the oppressed card to shout down someone in a lefty student union meeting is one thing, try doing it in the face of someone who actively supports your oppression and you're kind of fucked. How far does checking your privilege get in an argument with a BNP supporter or indeed anyone who isn't already massively sympathetic to your argument in the first place?

This form of intersectionality isn't about cutting across identities and destabilising them but really an extreme form of balkanisation.


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## cesare (Feb 5, 2014)

Haven't heard any rumours of threats of death to all menz and cisscum turning up in grievances etc in workplaces yet. Still seems confined to specific rarefied environments.


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## Crispy (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> you're on the road to intersectionalist top trumps.



I am now imagining a fully-blown intersectionality board game. Spending your Privilege Points to earn Oppression Cards, so you can build a Character with maximum Axes of Intersection versus your opponents. "I play my Tamil Quadriplegic Asexual Factory Owner" "Oooh, clever move. Can I swap two cards please - I have a bunch of Infertility cards that I don't need."


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sam Ambreen called us saddos in her blog. That is the ableism, oppressing depressed people.





We also made her "LOL". So much for her agony and head-holding, or her desire for exchange of views etc.


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## cesare (Feb 5, 2014)

Crispy said:


> I am now imagining a fully-blown intersectionality board game. Spending your Privilege Points to earn Oppression Cards, so you can build a Character with maximum Axes of Intersection versus your opponents. "I play my Tamil Quadriplegic Asexual Factory Owner" "Oooh, clever move. Can I swap two cards please - I have a bunch of Infertility cards that I don't need."


PD designed a board game already somewhere I think


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## revol68 (Feb 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> Haven't heard any rumours of threats of death to all menz and cisscum turning up in grievances etc in workplaces yet. Still seems confined to specific rarefied environments.



I expect KILL ALL MEN to become as common on walls as KILL ALL TAIGS and KILL ALL HUNS within a few more years, complete with hashtag.


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

Crispy said:


> I am now imagining a fully-blown intersectionality board game. Spending your Privilege Points to earn Oppression Cards, so you can build a Character with maximum Axes of Intersection versus your opponents. "I play my Tamil Quadriplegic Asexual Factory Owner" "Oooh, clever move. Can I swap two cards please - I have a bunch of Infertility cards that I don't need."




What I find saddest about this is that this has all been done before, I remember all this kind of stuff in the 80s (using slightly different language) and it was met by a repeated sneering right-wing gag about the council building a drop-in centre for black one-legged lesbians har har har, yet here we all are again but there seem to be people who are actually demanding this or its equivalent based on groupiscule philosophy.


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## frogwoman (Feb 5, 2014)

to be honest i don't particularly like thinking of myself as "oppressed". discrimination, yep. but oppression is something a lot worse isn't it. if i was to say i was oppressed for my religion or being a woman or something it would just be ridiculous, because i'm not really am i. i've experienced discrimination but that's not as bad. oppression would be like how things were for black people in south africa or like what goes on today in places like iran.

im sure some groups do experience that in the UK like travellers/roma etc but to say i'm oppressed because im a woman just sounds ridiculous and like trivialising the nature of oppression.


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> PD designed a board game already somewhere I think



Just looked for that - wasn't it done by the much-missed sihhi? It was the best piss take of this stuff I have ever seen


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## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

A number of them:

1
2
3


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## revol68 (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> What I find saddest about this is that this has all been done before, I remember all this kind of stuff in the 80s (using slightly different language) and it was met by a repeated sneering right-wing gag about the council building a drop-in centre for black one-legged lesbians har har har, yet here we all are again but there seem to be people who are actually demanding this or its equivalent based on groupiscule philosophy.



No doubt there will be a talking head show on channel 4 in 15 years time with all these old intersectionalists nostalgically laughing at their antics...


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## J Ed (Feb 5, 2014)

Crispy said:


> I am now imagining a fully-blown intersectionality board game. Spending your Privilege Points to earn Oppression Cards, so you can build a Character with maximum Axes of Intersection versus your opponents. "I play my Tamil Quadriplegic Asexual Factory Owner" "Oooh, clever move. Can I swap two cards please - I have a bunch of Infertility cards that I don't need."



One of the characters should be an American middle-class Jewish sex worker who defends race play.


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## revol68 (Feb 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


> One of the characters should be an American middle-class Jewish sex worker who defends race play.



That could be a chance card.

You have made some problematic comments about a piece of art, take 5 steps back and pay 500 oppression points.


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## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> to be honest i don't particularly like thinking of myself as "oppressed". discrimination, yep. but oppression is something a lot worse isn't it. if i was to say i was oppressed for my religion or being a woman or something it would just be ridiculous, because i'm not really am i. i've experienced discrimination but that's not as bad. oppression would be like how things were for black people in south africa or like what goes on today in places like iran.
> 
> im sure some groups do experience that in the UK like travellers/roma etc but to say i'm oppressed because im a woman just sounds ridiculous and like trivialising the nature of oppression.


You only think that cos you're a sexist out of touch white man though mate... oh, hang on  
I got called an out of touch white man the other day as well. Amusing - not because of the comment itself, which I admit is probably the most accurate thing a student trendy has ever said - but because it came from someone with white skin and male gender who has no life experience whatsoever outside the student lefty bubble and dresses like a 1980s throw back, which clearly makes him an in touch black woman.


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> because it came from someone with white skin and male gender who has no life experience whatsoever outside the student lefty bubble and dresses like a 1980s throw back, which clearly makes him an in touch black woman.


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> A number of them:
> 
> 1
> 2
> 3



Genius and I don't know a thing about this poster's offline physicality - in fact I mis-remembered her/his username as shihi ("she/he") because I thought it might be a play on his/her gender.


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## frogwoman (Feb 5, 2014)

What's the intersectionalist line on the tube strike?


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## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> Genius and I don't know a thing about this poster's offline physicality - in fact I mis-remembered her/his username as shihi ("she/he") because I thought it might be a play on his/her gender.


I think big tom did the operation one. Sihhi is a turkish word (sihhi comes from a turkish background) which appears to mean sanitary!


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## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What's the intersectionalist line on the tube strike?


There's an idea - an intersectionalist tube-map.


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## belboid (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> dresses like a 1980s throw back


and what's wrong wit that?

[checks where 'sartorial elegance' is on the wheel...]


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## frogwoman (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There's an idea - an intersectionalist tube-map.


 
I'll get on it this evening mate


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There's an idea - an intersectionalist tube-map.



Superb idea - each line has to be an ism, and the junctions are the intersections. The circle line is obviously a progressive stack go-around...


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## TopCat (Feb 5, 2014)

I  am supportive towards many of the expressed politics of Sam Ambreen. My main issue is that these politics are just a window dressing and that action, where taken seems to consist entirely of cunting off people on the internet. Add to that a complete refusal to actually discuss political issues, the constant lying about others and at best paraphrasing their opinions in order to further cunt them off and it's all a bit shit.


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## J Ed (Feb 5, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What's the intersectionalist line on the tube strike?



I think we'd need a detailed race, gender and sexuality break down of those in favour of the strike and those against before we can make a judgement on that.


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## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

belboid said:


> and what's wrong wit that?
> 
> [checks where 'sartorial elegance' is on the wheel...]



A better question would be what's right with it? 

(Says a 1990s throwback)


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## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think big tom did the operation one. Sihhi is a turkish word (sihhi comes from a turkish background) which appears to mean sanitary!



What happened to sihhi anyway? Not seen him around these parts lately which is a real shame - excellent poster.


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## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> What happened to sihhi anyway? Not seen him around these parts lately which is a real shame - excellent poster.


Left after firky-gate. Still reads pms.


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## cesare (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> Superb idea - each line has to be an ism, and the junctions are the intersections. The circle line is obviously a progressive stack go-around...


The Overground's already nicknamed the Ginger Line by some, so even more inclusive as I haven't spotted that on the wheel of oppression yet.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

all lines are twos stops from barking


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I could just say maladjusted malicious cunt who takes no responsibility for the evil shit he causes? Who also balances on the edge of a precipice of his own making?



Works for me!


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> all lines are twos stops from barking



It blatantly has to be the the right way up to counter centuries of sneering north-of-the-river arrogance


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/for-my-fans-at-urban75/



How very mature.


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## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> How very mature.


I'm disappointed, she said she wouldn't talk about us at all on her Twitter/blog.


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## Crispy (Feb 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> PD designed a board game already somewhere I think


As always, the brave leaders of the revolution are one step ahead of their followers


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yep. and the student ones, in my experience, appear to think that ageist abuse leveled against anyone over about 30 is perfectly acceptable, if not to be encouraged. Usually the same (always white) people who think referring to white people as crackers (I had to ask what that one meant) and honkies.



I'm afraid that any young white person calling me a honky would get short shrift, including a clip round the ear, and a request for them to go back to the 1960s and '70s.



> I don't think anyone's really offended or threatened by this nonsense, its not as if middle aged white people are gonna become an oppressed group anytime soon and apart from anything else it usually comes from people for whom left politics is all about proving how much more wadical they are than everyone else, never got beyond the 'I won't eat my greens mum' stage of rebellion, and are impossible to take seriously. but its fucking annoying and, as the most vocal and visible part of the student left, can give the impression that serious progressives are like that too.
> 
> A couple of them called me a wacist for telling a fart joke the other day lol



I suppose I find it a bit harder to laugh about, if only because I've already seen how a preponderance of identity-based politics tore the arse out of left activism in the '80s.  Where we used to all of us different folk come together as necessary, now it's mostly about a little grouplet doing this, and another little grouplet doing that, and never the fucking twain shall meet. 
Left politics isn't "dead", as some idiots claim, but it has lost a lot of its previous cohesive force.  Sometimes, in my darker moments, I wonder whether the turn to identity politics was engineered in some way.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

revol68 said:


> No doubt there will be a talking head show on channel 4 in 15 years time with all these old intersectionalists nostalgically laughing at their antics...



...back before they sold their arses to the media and became rent-a-quote gobshites, rather than just gobshites.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> You only think that cos you're a sexist out of touch white man though mate... oh, hang on
> I got called an out of touch white man the other day as well. Amusing - not because of the comment itself, which I admit is probably the most accurate thing a student trendy has ever said - but because it came from someone with white skin and male gender who has no life experience whatsoever outside the student lefty bubble and dresses like a 1980s throw back, which clearly makes him an in touch black woman.



Were you able to restrain yourself from laughing in his face?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There's an idea - an intersectionalist tube-map.



Complete with re-naming of stations to nullify previous nominative oppressions. Hmmm:

Seven Sisters to Seven Solidaristic Feminists.
Theydon Bois to Theydon Grlls
Swiss Cottage to Swiss Encounter Venue.

Well, you get  my drift...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I  am supportive towards many of the expressed politics of Sam Ambreen. My main issue is that these politics are just a window dressing and that action, where taken seems to consist entirely of cunting off people on the internet. Add to that a complete refusal to actually discuss political issues, the constant lying about others and at best paraphrasing their opinions in order to further cunt them off and it's all a bit shit.



Where you're going wrong, my lad, is that you're thinking of politics as a method for bringing together collectivities "under a single banner", different but equal.  For *some* of these folk, politics is about being the person who shouts loudest, and in search of increased volume, deploying every real or imagined oppression they've ever suffered, in order to silence other people who might be thinking of shouting.  We're both of us old enough to have seen this all before, and it didn't end well last time - arguably, it gutted the UK left as a cohesive political force, and left us with a multiplicity of small in-fighting grouplets whose primary aim was securing their own future, rather than everyone's future.


----------



## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

Crispy said:


> As always, the brave leaders of the revolution are one step ahead of their followers



Are you accusing PD of vanguardism?


----------



## treelover (Feb 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> we don't have our own one, we have the one you couldn't make up.



Its very revealing and imo, identifies the elitist nature/source of this work that Professors/Academics are at the height of the oppression tree, what about bankers? , though I could see think tank wonks up there.


----------



## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

.

The ultimate Priv-Off between two lefty titans from opposite sides of the pond. Vallejo's parents are communists and her dad was arrested 3 times in the coup. On top of the vast socioeconomic inequalities, Chile is notably poor for women's rights especially compared to the UK - high domestic violence rate, abortion is illegal etc. But stuff like that doesn't count here. I'm waiting on the result of a steward's enquiry before finishing this.


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## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

Temporary Autonomous Sloane


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 5, 2014)

I think I could automate that


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## fractionMan (Feb 5, 2014)

Would need a set of ordered lists for each axis of oppression.  Very easy for age, might be tricky for things like classism.


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> .View attachment 47816



Laurie Penny - Standard Female Appearance?

Does her radical gender-breaking haircut mean nothing?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> Would need a set of ordered lists for each axis of oppression.  Very easy for age, might be tricky for things like classism.


If people would be willing to chip in you could have them do a forced ranking on a set of items, which would give an ordered list.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> If people would be willing to chip in you could have them do a forced ranking on a set of items, which would give an ordered list.



That'd be a fun thread 

Be even easier if you could insert things into the ordered list on contestant creation.  When you add someone to the database of contestants (e.g. Camila) with a new value (e.g. Irish Pirate), place the new value in the list in the correct place.  Job done.  Bit more up front work on the application though.


----------



## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

andysays said:


> Laurie Penny - Standard Female Appearance?
> 
> Does her radical gender-breaking haircut mean nothing?


That's what's great about the game! The player's level of confidence in articulating oppressions is the difference between winning or losing.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> That's what's great about the game! The player's level of confidence in articulating oppressions is the difference between winning or losing.



They could manage their fighter by manipulating the list of relative oppressions.  It's the new MMORG stats layer on top of twitter.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

MMORG - Massive Multiplayer Oppression Resistance Game


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Quantick has left the building!?



Well, it's not on Media Mass so it must be true 

en.mediamass.net/people/david-quantick/deathhoax.html


----------



## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> They could manage their fighter by manipulating the list of relative oppressions.  It's the new MMORG stats layer on top of twitter.


Players should be able to change one default value per game but only if the other player agrees or something.

You could ask for one tip per game as well. So a little paperclip thing would pop up with stuff like this.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> Players should be able to change one default value per game but only if the other player agrees or something.
> 
> You could ask for one tip per game as well. So a little paperclip thing would pop up with stuff like this.
> 
> View attachment 47821


Tricky that - what's less privileged, Scouse or West Mids? Norn Irish or Glaswegian?


----------



## belboid (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Tricky that - what's less privileged, Scouse or West Mids? Norn Irish or Glaswegian?


further north = less privileged (special rules for Durham & Edinburgh tho)


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

belboid said:


> further north = less privileged (special rules for Durham & Edinburgh tho)


Yebbut - accents on the same longitude?


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 5, 2014)

It's sounding more and more like mornington crescent


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Where you're going wrong, my lad, is that you're thinking of politics as a method for bringing together collectivities "under a single banner", different but equal.  For *some* of these folk, politics is about being the person who shouts loudest, and in search of increased volume, deploying every real or imagined oppression they've ever suffered, in order to silence other people who might be thinking of shouting.  We're both of us old enough to have seen this all before, and it didn't end well last time - arguably, it gutted the UK left as a cohesive political force, and left us with a multiplicity of small in-fighting grouplets whose primary aim was securing their own future, rather than everyone's future.



What can be done to combat all this poop?


----------



## belboid (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Yebbut - accents on the same longitude?


easterly = posher, i think. exeter v brighton, wolverhampton v peterborough....


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sometimes, in my darker moments, I wonder whether the turn to identity politics was engineered in some way.


I speculate that the Special Demonstration Squad (or whatever they have been renamed as) would use exactly these tactics to divide us, cause dismay and bitterness and ultimately stop challenging systems, structures and capital. I look with a very beady eye at certain people and their actions.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2014)

TopCat said:


> What can be done to combat all this poop?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

TopCat said:


> What can be done to combat all this poop?



The biggest issue is getting past the thinking (which was and is arguably aided by policies such as "official" multiculturalism) that each group has to secure the future of that group, because we're sure as hell stronger standing together, than we are as relatively-impotent interest groups standing apart.
I'm not sure how that can be done, though. Identity politics, and the interest groups that it has created, mean that for some of those "fronting" or "leading" such groups, there are what we could politely call "personal motives" for keeping left politics fractured - it's easier to control a small fiefdom, than a large kingdom.  As ever, I think that the only route out of this is local grassroots activism setting an example that proves that working together is better than failing apart.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


>



A cultural revolution, you say?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Were you able to restrain yourself from laughing in his face?



This was shortly after I was called a racist for pondering the question of what might happen were one to pass wind whilst wearing a burqa (would it get trapped inside, suffocating the farter like those paper overalls with elastic ankles and sleaves or might there be a different dynamic at work?) so my restraint had already been broken


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> This was shortly after I was called a racist for pondering the question of what might happen were one to pass wind whilst wearing a burqa so my restraint had already been broken



He'd have probably called you a textilist if you'd pondered the question of what might happen if you farted while under your quilt.  People like that never see beyond being able to score imaginary points.  They certainly don't make good activists (where a raw sense of humour is pretty much an essential).


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> He'd have probably called you a textilist if you'd pondered the question of what might happen if you farted while under your quilt.  People like that never see beyond being able to score imaginary points.  They certainly don't make good activists (where a raw sense of humour is pretty much an essential).



I'm working (well, he's working, I'm volunteering) with a bloke whose mum wears a burqa. After this little episode I asked him if he found it offensive and he replied that the most offensive thing about it was that, as a joke, it wasn't especially funny. I asked him to ask his mum and apparently she laughed and her response to the question in the joke was something along the lines of, 'how should I know? I never fart'


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The biggest issue is getting past the thinking (which was and is arguably aided by policies such as "official" multiculturalism) that each group has to secure the future of that group, because we're sure as hell stronger standing together, than we are as relatively-impotent interest groups standing apart.
> I'm not sure how that can be done, though. Identity politics, and the interest groups that it has created, mean that for some of those "fronting" or "leading" such groups, there are what we could politely call "personal motives" for keeping left politics fractured - it's easier to control a small fiefdom, than a large kingdom.  As ever, I think that the only route out of this is local grassroots activism setting an example that proves that working together is better than failing apart.



Well said. I find being in a university environment means that I sometimes find it harder to remember that these tiny groups of uber wadicals represent basically nothing and that as and when serious grassroots campaigns arise, these people will either be nowhere near them or completely ignored.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well said. I find being in a university environment means that I sometimes find it harder to remember that these tiny groups of uber wadicals represent basically nothing and that as and when serious grassroots campaigns arise, these people will either be nowhere near them or completely ignored.


 
all campaigns that they aren't involved in are racist, sexist, transphobic, or patriarchal.  the evidence is that they must be, or the wadicals would be involved.  ipso facto, innit


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2014)

plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals.  they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place.  so why bother.  better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first.  via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter.  the logic is sound*, of course.  society is racist.  anything that happens in that society is therefore racist.  therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.  



* sound, like some sort of farting noise.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals.  they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place.  so why bother.  better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first.  via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter.  the logic is sound*, of course.  society is racist.  anything that happens in that society is therefore racist.  therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.
> 
> 
> 
> * sound, like some sort of farting noise.


Reminds me of Jehovah's Witnesses. In a roundabout way.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Reminds me of Jehovah's Witnesses. In a roundabout way.


 
big issue radicals don't celebreate christmas either.  only royal jubilees and lesbian coming-out parties for women who've never had sex with a man.


----------



## caleb (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals.  they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place.  so why bother.  better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first.  via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter.  the logic is sound*, of course.  society is racist.  anything that happens in that society is therefore racist.  therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.
> 
> 
> 
> * sound, like some sort of farting noise.



I don't think that's true of them at all. In fact, despite claiming to be anarchists and communists, you almost never hear them speak of capitalism and revolution in any substantial or meaningful way. Rather I think they believe that it is exactly through calling out the 'small stuff' that the 'big stuff' will be challenged, because oppression is replicated through the most minute of behaviours.


----------



## caleb (Feb 5, 2014)

The best question for Sam, in my opinion, was 'what are you for?', because really, beyond 'not being a dick', it's not clear.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2014)

caleb said:


> I don't think that's true of them at all. In fact, despite claiming to be anarchists and communists, you almost never hear them speak of capitalism and revolution in any substantial or meaningful way. Rather I think they believe that it is exactly through calling out the 'small stuff' that the 'big stuff' will be challenged, because oppression is replicated through the most minute of behaviours.


 
that seems like quite deep theory.  i'm not yet convinced that they've thought it through that much.


----------



## caleb (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> that seems like quite deep theory.  i'm not yet convinced that they've thought it through that much.



On the other hand, if they have thought it through this far, they don't need to think it through any further, since they've arrived 'theoretically' at the [ugh]praxis[/ugh] of 'calling out'.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals.  they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place.  so why bother.  better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first.  via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter.  the logic is sound*, of course.  society is racist.  anything that happens in that society is therefore racist.  therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.
> 
> 
> 
> * sound, like some sort of farting noise.



For they alone possess the power to exist in a protective bubble, shielded from the infectious prejudice of the outside world.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 5, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good to be honest. I don't think either side put forward arguments well or in a way that was likely to function as good communication with the other side.
> 
> In case Sam comes back, here's an answer that might be a bit more readable than the aggression she encountered. I've actually liked the intersectionalist theories I've read and I suspect some people on here have as well. A big problem with the twittersectionalists people have here is they somehow manage to downplay class constantly (and this point was put to you a bit but quite aggressively). I don't think intersectionalist theory has to be used in that way. And you, Sam, if you ever look back in here, seem to have joined a blogosphere/twittersphere group that probably doesn't want to think about class for a reason: that they are the beneficiaries in that game. You yourself may not be and I'm happy to take your word for that. But you've become part of a little internet scene and there are reasons people here have a problem with that scene. I couldn't necessarily say those people are on the wrong side of the capital-labour divide, but as high-end waged workers they may be in an incredibly comfortable position - and I have been told off recently for 'wrong' views on intersectionalism by a black woman who's parents have a small property empire (true story). I didn't think much of her position I can tell you. I think what she was doing was divisive but did it really *matter* to her as much as to someone who really needs political struggle to have a decent standard of living? I'm sure you are different from some of the other participants in that scene, but you could think a bit more about what you've become part of - why it is that class is not discussed much.
> 
> ...



He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sam Ambreen called us saddos in her blog. That is the ableism, oppressing depressed people.



I was not aware it is abelist. I have now deleted it.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I'm disappointed, she said she wouldn't talk about us at all on her Twitter/blog.



If you'd noticed the date, you'd see I published it a week ago when I was only silently fuming at the traffic from this site.


----------



## inva (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.


I'm fairly sure what you're talking about was posted to you by someone who is banned from this website.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 5, 2014)

caleb said:


> The best question for Sam, in my opinion, was 'what are you for?', because really, beyond 'not being a dick', it's not clear.



End violence against women. End the rape culture. Anarchism. Communism.


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 5, 2014)

inva said:


> I'm fairly sure what you're talking about was posted to you by someone who is banned from this website.


 
He said his name was butchersapron


----------



## Wilf (Feb 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> PM a mod or summat otherwise you'll end up like Wilf


----------



## Sam Ambreen (Feb 5, 2014)

I'd really appreciate if people wouldn't link me to discussions on rape before asking me first.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> He said his name was butchersapron


You've been mugged by someone pretending to be me - as have many others over the last year  - seeking to cause real life trouble for me. I've been nowhere near you on twitter.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.



What would you like to talk about Sam?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> End violence against women. End the rape culture. Anarchism. Communism.



How?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> If you'd noticed the date, you'd see I published it a week ago when I was only silently fuming at the traffic from this site.


Oh. My bad. Apologies.


----------



## belboid (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> End violence against women. End the rape culture. Anarchism. Communism.


do you consider yourself a Marxist? In any way


----------



## emanymton (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I was not aware it is abelist. I have now deleted it.


I know Spiney was joking. I am not sure if you are?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.


Once again, I *HIGHLY* recommend doing so on other topics and threads than this one, if only to get a feel for things.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

Just to confirm the people who posted this to sam are not me  - they ern and firky continuing a vendetta with me and have been trying to get me into serious real life trouble since firky's bullshit was exposed on here. And ern needs to think very carefully about just how attached to his 80 grand a year lifestyle he really is:


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I was not aware it is abelist. I have now deleted it.



Sorry Sam Ambreen , I don't think it is really - it was just a joke and not a very funny one. Welcome back 

Also, the twitter user claiming to be butchersapron is definitely NOT the butchersapron posting here - that person is a malicious individual and if I were you I'd report and block them on twitter.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen The person who messaged yo on twitter is pretending to be butchers and he has been banned from this website. Hope you stick around.


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 5, 2014)

Yeah Sam Ambreen. Stay with us. This thread is better than that other one.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> A cultural revolution, you say?



He wasn't into that so much.  More so a great leap forward.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 5, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Yeah Sam Ambreen. Stay with us. This thread is better than that other one.


 Yes. I'm not going to suggest some 'we'll end up with points of agreement' bullshit, I suspect urban's centre of gravity will always be away from yours. However if you join in other threads that are less about you (and by that I mean that _'we'_ made the thread about you by discussing you on urban), things may be less, ahem, _intense_.  When not involved in a process of lining up against someone, a lot of posters on here do post stuff you/we all can learn something from.

That might be optimisitic on my part but, regardless, it's not something I'd be saying to Laurie Penny!


----------



## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just to confirm the people who posted this to sam are not me  - they ern and firky continuing a vendetta with me and have been trying to get me into serious real life trouble since firky's bullshit was exposed on here. And ern needs to think very carefully about just how attached to his 80 grand a year lifestyle he really is:



This is seriously shit, and almost certainly illegal. If I was you I would take it up a gear here - dunno if you like getting the police into things? Maybe Sam Ambreen has an option here too - depending on what has been sent.

EL is a senior teacher in care of children, involvement in this kind of illegal online abuse ought to be reported imo. Just my opinion.


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 5, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Yes. I'm not going to suggest some 'we'll end up with points of agreement' bullshit, I suspect urban's centre of gravity will always be away from yours. However if you join in other threads that are less about you (and by that I mean that _'we'_ made the thread about you by discussing you on urban), things may be less, ahem, _intense_.  When not involved in a process of lining up against someone, a lot of posters on here do post stuff you/we all can learn something from.
> 
> That might be optimisitic on my part but, regardless, it's not something I'd be saying to Laurie Penny!



Fucking hell, for a moment there I thought you were talking to me and just as the psych nurses are on their way with the meds, depot injections in my arse .


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> This is seriously shit, and almost certainly illegal. If I was you I would take it up a gear here - dunno if you like getting the police into things? Maybe Sam Ambreen has an option here too - depending on what has been sent.
> 
> EL is a senior teacher in care of children, involvement in this kind of illegal online abuse ought to be reported imo. Just my opinion.


This is just the tip of the iceberg btw there's been a long running campaign they've carried out against me.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just to confirm the people who posted this to sam are not me  - they ern and firky continuing a vendetta with me and have been trying to get me into serious real life trouble since firky's bullshit was exposed on here. And ern needs to think very carefully about just how attached to his 80 grand a year lifestyle he really is:



I can't see that image for some reason - is it on a password protected site or something?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

See it now?:


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

christ alive...why ffs


----------



## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This is just the tip of the iceberg btw there's been a long running campaign they've carried out against me.




I know some guys who live in Norwich


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> See it now:
> 
> View attachment 47836



Yeah ta - got to say if he was pulling that shit on me I'd be looking into ways of ending the aforementioned £80k a year lifestyle. But then again I'm a vindictive grudge bearing bastard whose principles surrounding the use of the authorities would go out of the window pretty quickly in a situation like that.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> I know some guys who live in Norwich


And can they confirm whether this sort of behaviour is normal for Norfolk?


----------



## weepiper (Feb 5, 2014)

Oh yeah, that's definitely not butchersapron, that's some obsessive creepy stalker weirdo, dunno which of them it is but I blocked it ages ago. Suggest you do too.


----------



## co-op (Feb 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> And can they confirm whether this sort of behaviour is normal for Norfolk?





Dunno but it's a short drive to Dereham.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

belboid said:


> easterly = posher, i think. exeter v brighton, wolverhampton v peterborough....


Tricky. Within towns and cities, the west of a town was often considered more well-to-do by inhabitants, as the prevailing British winds would blow noxious fumes and smells eastwards. Aberdeen for example is not as posh as Edinburgh (although one could argue more nouveau riche) despite being on approximately the same longitude as Edinburgh. But Edinburgh is posher (mostly) than Glasgow, although there are some expensive places to the west of Glasgow city proper.

I suspect you'd need a computed 'posh' index (PI) really, looking at multiple posh factors.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Yeah Sam Ambreen. Stay with us. This thread is better than that other one.


i hope i haven't missed Sam Ambreen's 'last post'


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> christ alive...why ffs


Because they have no lives.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Because they have no lives.


zombie posters


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen hope you stick around, welcome to Urban and whoever had a go at you on twitter is definitely not butchersapron. Block them, because they are a horrible nasty piece of work.

We can be quite robust in our fighting arguing discussions so don't be afraid to disagree or object. Happy to see you back, hope you'll become a regular poster


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals.  they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place.  so why bother.  better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first.  via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter.  the logic is sound*, of course.  society is racist.  anything that happens in that society is therefore racist.  therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.
> 
> 
> 
> * sound, like some sort of farting noise.



I've never seen the point in only focusing on the big issues. To me the small issues and the large issues are indivisible.  If you don't address both, you're setting in train a situation where the small/local issue can grow to be a big/national issue, and where the big/national issues dominate public consciousness to the extent that local activists "die off".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> He said his name was butchersapron



Which, of course, means it must have been butcheresapron, not any of the muppets who amuse themselves by impersonating him (yes, there are such people - at least 4 that I can think of).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> He wasn't into that so much.  More so a great leap forward.



Not so easy for us crips, the disablist bastard!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've never seen the point in only focusing on the big issues. To me the small issues and the large issues are indivisible.  If you don't address both, you're setting in train a situation where the small/local issue can grow to be a big/national issue, and where the big/national issues dominate public consciousness to the extent that local activists "die off".



look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves yeah? Thing is I've seen bread n butter issues and people doing that work and the bigger issues don't seem to follow,  it's like people rushing around with sandbags and no cunts actually lowered the thames barrier. Constantly since 1983.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

co-op said:


> I know some guys who live in Norwich



Me too.
I say "guys", but they're aunts, uncles and cousins. I also already said to butchers back during firkygate, that I'd be happy to turn up at his school next time I'm visiting my parents, and ask a few questions of the school admin staff/put the cat among the pigeons, but (gentleman that he is) he asked me not to.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves yeah? Thing is I've seen bread n butter issues and people doing that work and the bigger issues don't seem to follow,  it's like people rushing around with sandbags and no cunts actually lowered the thames barrier. Constantly since 1983.



It certainly seems like that, I agree. Thing is, most activism is about erosion, when people want it to be more dynamic than that.  Unfortunately, you can't change opinions overnight - even when opinions are outlawed, they don't actually disappear, they just go underground - and that doesn't suit some people, just as being activist for something that has no limelight doesn't suit some people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> And can they confirm whether this sort of behaviour is normal for Norfolk?



Just for once, I can say "no" in answer to that question (obviously, if you'd asked about the pollarding of genetic trees or similar....).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Because they have no lives.



If that were truly the reason, I could begin to understand them
However, it's not the case with either lynch or flimsier - they're educators.  
Firky is a different story - he doesn't have much of a life, and won't, and keeps stabbing himself in the back/self-sabotaging any time he gets a glimmer of life beyond the immunosuppressants he takes to stop his monkey-liver going ape (bad pun, I know!  ).

Why they do this isn't about having no lives, it's about malice, and specifically, it's about exerting power over someone, and not believing they'll ever have to pay for doing so.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> If that were truly the reason, I could begin to understand them
> However, it's not the case with either lynch or flimsier - they're educators.
> Firky is a different story - he doesn't have much of a life, and won't, and keeps stabbing himself in the back/self-sabotaging any time he gets a glimmer of life beyond the immunosuppressants he takes to stop his monkey-liver going ape (bad pun, I know!  ).
> 
> Why they do this isn't about having no lives, it's about malice, and specifically, it's about exerting power over someone, and not believing they'll ever have to pay for doing so.


It was tongue-in-cheek, I can see this is pure nastiness.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It certainly seems like that, I agree. Thing is, most activism is about erosion, when people want it to be more dynamic than that.  Unfortunately, you can't change opinions overnight - even when opinions are outlawed, they don't actually disappear, they just go underground - and that doesn't suit some people, just as being activist for something that has no limelight doesn't suit some people.




drip-drip and the walls of jericho will fall. I do get that but 'how long o lord' etc. 30 years of these same cunts running the same show (and I know its been longer for others). Sandbags it is for the time being. Shit, sandbagging is better than giving up


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It was tongue-in-cheek, I can see this is pure nastiness.



It's also a pattern of behaviour that has been going on for a good ten years, predating any excuses like mid-life crisis or illness.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I'd really appreciate if people wouldn't link me to discussions on rape before asking me first.


Point taken, I won't use the Sam Ambreen on any thread, I will leave it up to you what you engage in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's also a pattern of behaviour that has been going on for a good ten years, predating any excuses like mid-life crisis or illness.



Like I said, malice that they don't think they'll ever be held to account for.


----------



## JTG (Feb 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just to confirm the people who posted this to sam are not me  - they ern and firky continuing a vendetta with me and have been trying to get me into serious real life trouble since firky's bullshit was exposed on here. And ern needs to think very carefully about just how attached to his 80 grand a year lifestyle he really is:


Oh cobblers. About firky that is. He's completely out of all this and much better off for it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

JTG said:


> Oh cobblers. About firky that is. He's completely out of all this and much better off for it.


That's why he was on here two weeks ago playing the same shit posting real names and also bringing off board mates into it?


----------



## JTG (Feb 5, 2014)

Have your folk devil if you like


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2014)

JTG said:


> Have your folk devil if you like



there's none so blind mate.


----------



## JTG (Feb 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> there's none so blind mate.


well indeed


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

lets have it right, this sort of shenanigans and bullshit just allows the sam ambreens of this world to write every fucker on here as wankers and nasty stalky ones with it. Its proper shithouse smearing


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

I reckon best move on - publicly on this thread anyway.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 5, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Fucking hell, for a moment there I thought you were talking to me and just as the psych nurses are on their way with the meds, depot injections in my arse .


Yes, there's no way I'd have been so welcoming to _you_.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 5, 2014)

This band has a hipster playing a washboard.  I think I get some oppression points.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why they do this isn't about having no lives, it's about malice, and specifically, it's about exerting power over someone, and not believing they'll ever have to pay for doing so.


 I'm sure you are right about the malice bit but, somehow, these externally functional people still betray the same characteristics of the saddest keyboard warrior slimeturd.  But yeah, let's move on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> This band has a hipster playing a washboard.  I think I get some oppression points.



How do you know he's a hipster?  Perhaps he inherited the washboard from his skiffle-playing grandad, and is playing it as a memorial to the recently-deceased old'un?


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen said:


> He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.


Apparently that wasn't him, and anyway I've told you what I think of butchersapron in the post after the one you quoted - I don't engage with him much and you don't have to either. I did put actual arguments to you in a polite way. I'm not sure why answering would be contingent on someone else's behaviour.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

In the interests of moving on, here's something from the standard about LP:


> What next for Laurie Penny? The feminist writer spent much of last week engaged in online spats about her latest New Statesman column, on the politics of women’s hair, in which she was accused of the highest of crimes in the world of activist blogging — failing to “check her privilege”.
> 
> After all the commotion she could be forgiven for feeling she deserved a break, and apparently an intriguing possibility has arisen to do just that. “I just got asked to do Big Brother,” writes Penny on her Facebook page. “I mean, no, but part of me desperately wants to do it and write about it.”
> 
> A colleague of Penny’s tells The Londoner: “She should do it. A couple of weeks locked up without Twitter would do her nerves the world of good.”


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...nny-takes-a-fancy-to-big-brother-9109319.html

And then LP posts this on Twitter:


> I find this Evening Standard article, drawn entirely from my Facebook, demeaning and invasive. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/laurie-penny-takes-a-fancy-to-big-brother-9109319.html…



LP, don't put stuff on the internet if you don't want people to comment on it (also don't write articles about _hair_ if you don't want comments), have we taught you _nothing_ since BedroomPhotoGate?


----------



## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

.



New link thing? Don't like it.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

Sam Ambreen just so you know, if there's posters you don't want anything to do with, you can ignore them which means you won't see anything they post even if they quote you.

Hover over your username in the top right of the screen and choose 'People You Ignore' from the list. Follow the instructions to add posters to your ignore list. It can be really helpful, I find


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

man fuck the substandard. I find myself almost knee jerk reacting to the defense of anyone mentioned negatively in that fucking arsewipe


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> man fuck the substandard. I find myself almost knee jerk reacting to the defense of anyone mentioned negatively in that fucking arsewipe


More the fact that she was posting information publicly and then publicly complaining when they (invariably) picked up on it.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> More the fact that she was posting information publicly and then publicly complaining when they (invariably) picked up on it.



I get the impression it was on her private FB account. FB security settings are a fucking joke.


----------



## Sue (Feb 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> New link thing? Don't like it.




Heard this. Dire doesn't do it justice.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

That is true they are, and she should know that. But again, why post something on FB (privacy settings limited or not) knowing that it will likely find it's way into the public domain?


----------



## rekil (Feb 5, 2014)

Sue said:


> Heard this. Dire doesn't do it justice.


Might as well have had Dyer on.


----------



## Sue (Feb 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> Might as well have had Dyer on.


 
Revolutionary voice of a generation.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 5, 2014)

> I have a theory about Britain's bingeing but it is, admittedly, one that I came up with in the pub. I've come to believe that our small island has a unique combination of factors that results in our seemingly indefatigable urge to get wasted. It has roots in our class system, which has seen the rich stockpile wealth and the poor go from the medieval alehouses that flourished in the wake of the Black Death to Wetherspoons, via Hogarth's Beer Street and Gin Lane.
> 
> The industrial revolution gave birth to the modern pattern of alternating monotonous, silent work with noisy, drunken piss-ups. Now we work more hours than any other country in Europe. By contrast, many French people still take two hours at lunch.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/05/stay-sober-no-thanks-british-binge-drinking
Jesus Christ.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/05/stay-sober-no-thanks-british-binge-drinking
> Jesus Christ.


Try reading it in the new Graun format. It somehow makes it twice as bad.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/05/stay-sober-no-thanks-british-binge-drinking
> Jesus Christ.


 
Certainly where I'm from there was a history of getting decently leathered after a long day down the pit.
Or am I looking at the wrong bit?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

8ball said:


> Certainly where I'm from there was a history of getting decently leathered after a long day down the pit.
> Or am I looking at the wrong bit?


For one it insinuates that the UK is a particularly hard drinking country. It's not, not even in a European context.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> For one it insinuates that the UK is a particularly hard drinking country. It's not, not even in a European context.


 
The article does mention other countries drinking more, but that they have no 'binge drinking epidemic'.

Ok, I know binge-drinking is in decline but it's January, you can't fill a whole paper with the fucking weather. 

edit: February - D'Oh!! - guess that at least means we're more than half way through winter...


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

8ball said:


> The article does mention other countries drinking more, but that they have no 'binge drinking epidemic'.
> 
> Ok, I know binge-drinking is in decline but it's January, you can't fill a whole paper with the fucking weather.


I thought average consumption in the UK was going down?


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I thought average consumption in the UK was going down?


 
True.  There have been a couple of recent deaths, though, and there are papers to be filled.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 5, 2014)

Her casual attitude to binge drinking is pretty alarming. I drunk heavy after a heartache when an adult and it made me almost teetotal. She thinks is perfectly fine. I mean, fucking hell.



> _Suggesting that binge-drinking, getting shit-faced or drinking to cope with sadness or heartbreak is part and parcel of that behaviour._
> 
> It is, completely.
> 
> ...



http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/31611191


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 5, 2014)

8ball said:


> True.  There have been a couple of recent deaths, though, and there are papers to be filled.



That'll be due to neknominations and youngsters(I think) necking bloody awful awful concoctions.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> That'll be due to neknominations and youngsters(I think) necking bloody awful awful concoctions.


 
I think they were both neknominations - whatever they are.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 5, 2014)

(a) Surely "why the Guardian is going downhill" thread?

(b) It's been written many times before but I don't see the problem with it tbh. It would get a shitload of likes if it was posted here.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 5, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> (b) It's been written many times before but I don't see the problem with it tbh. It would get a shitload of likes if it was posted here.



It'd be ripped to pieces.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Her casual attitude to binge drinking is pretty alarming. I drunk heavy after a heartache when an adult and it made me almost teetotal. She thinks is perfectly fine. I mean, fucking hell.
> 
> 
> 
> http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/31611191




a binge while not fine is ok so long as you don't then live it day in day out. For one thing everyone thinks you are a wanker and for another you are poisoning the internal organs.

Binge drinking when confronted by bad things just happens. Would be far easier to give a man a big spliff and a meal and send him to bed, he can bury Lassie tomorrow.

But I suspect the author thinks five pints and a couple of chasers is a binge, it isn't. It's not healthy but its not on the level that most consider a binge of bad proportions


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> But I suspect the author thinks five pints and a couple of chasers is a binge, it isn't. It's not healthy but its not on the level that most consider a binge of bad proportions


 
According to the BMA, three pints is a binge (for a woman).  The media seems to be following that lead.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2014)

three pints is lunch in some quarters...


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 5, 2014)

It's an article I'd expect in a student newspaper, not the Guardian.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 5, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It'd be ripped to pieces.


It wouldn't be. It isn't a great article but the sentiment would absolutely be applauded. I can't believe people are saying "ooh she has such a casual attitude to binge drinking" on bloody Urban


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 5, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It wouldn't be. It isn't a great article but the sentiment would absolutely be applauded. I can't believe people are saying "ooh she has such a casual attitude to binge drinking" on bloody Urban



She'll be encouraging drug use next.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

Anyway been reading our mate Sam Ambreen's blog and it's a treasure trove of nonsense.

Take this article where she gives off about white feminists giving off about domestic abusers and rapists of colour, because apparently that isn't a white women's place



> Last week various WoC had to push down triggers of domestic and sexual abuse in order to defend the perpetrators of these acts of violence against women. The two men in question; Mike Tyson and Stan Collymore. Y’see if you’re a white woman and you know that so and so is a prolific abuser, you can condemn them without needing to think of the intersection where men of colour are victims of the system also.



Not to leave it at that, we get a baseless assertion that whitey journalists are unfairly misrepresenting Mike Tyson.



> I was livid when I heard that Tyson had had 'distressing problems with women.' He is the reason for the distress felt by many women but then I had to think about the way in which those lines were presented. Those were not his words, they were written by the author of the piece Donald McRae. The white man writing the piece severely understated the nature of Tyson’s ‘problems’ with women. The interview could have been structured in a way where he was given a chance to apologise for his behaviour and condemn it in others, instead there’s a garbled quote about how he found God. This is how white people want you to see Tyson.



Maybe Sam might want to consider trying to interview Tyson...




This shit is disgusting self serving crap, there is no principled stance here, just an attempt to claim exclusivity of judgement.


----------



## emanymton (Feb 6, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> (a) Surely "why the Guardian is going downhill" thread?
> 
> (b) It's been written many times before but I don't see the problem with it tbh. It would get a shitload of likes if it was posted here.


A) probably 

B) maybe by some, but this is not a prestigious newspaper and we don't get paid for writing crap.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> This shit is disgusting self serving crap, there is no principled stance here, just an attempt to claim exclusivity of judgement.



I don't see anything on her blog that's worth the effort of engaging with, the Mary Beard/Helen Lewis Twitterspat was a pretty good clue to the value of the rest. 

In her defence, she's not a paid-up member of the commentariat (yet), but she's got an ego to match any of those who are. Coming on to U75 with her own name as her username means that she can 'debate' completely on her own terms and any debate becomes just about her. When she posts, she'll get 5-10 responses per post and she can pick and choose what to respond to - it's a bit like public "questions" to a major politician - there will never be an opportunity to challenge the answer.

Again tbf, this may be a product of different experience - if you live in twitterworld (something I know nothing about, I don't have a mobile) - it looks to me a little like celebrity culture, how famous you are, having your cultural niche, your followers. Bulletin Board culture is much more anonymous and (at least to some extent) more about the pov than the person who's expressing that pov. If she wants to actually engage with us she'd best go anonymous, but I don't think we're her target demographic to put it mildly. 

IMO she's fishing for misogyny - and with wankers like ernesto and firky around, she'll probably get some. Also with a sufficiently wide definition of misogyny she could probably find some anyway.


----------



## Ole (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Anyway been reading our mate Sam Ambreen's blog and it's a treasure trove of nonsense.
> 
> Take this article where she gives off about white feminists giving off about domestic abusers and rapists of colour, because apparently that isn't a white women's place
> 
> ...




That's your bog standard intersectionalist take on nearly everything; imported straight from the United States "left" which has been peddling this wank for years obviously.



> Y’see if you’re a white woman and you know that so and so is a prolific abuser, you can condemn them without needing to think of the intersection where men of colour are victims of the system also.



It's just a meaningless sentence — its only purpose is to serve the "fuck off out of my lane" agenda these types push. It is an endless me-me-me battle for authenticity. Once the traditional Left is discarded as inauthentic, you're left to looking to distinguish yourself within the intersectional bubble, and you need to find more and more stuff to attack in order to do that. Next it has to be intersectional whites, heterosexuals, homosexual men, bisexuals, males, skinny people, etc. (I've seen examples of all of these). They can't help themselves. 

There was a good article someone linked to many pages back on what Internet-driven 'feminism' has developed into over there.

http://www.thenation.com/article/178140/feminisms-toxic-twitter-wars

It is just hyper-narcissism masquerading as politics. They're painting a truly embarrassing, awful picture of the entire left for any young people who are developing an interest in actual politics. It's proper pollution. 

The American ones make me particularly fucking sick. Their government's just got done snatching food out of poor babies mouths (and poor mother's mouths who will obviously go without). Throwing millions of people off benefits and onto the scrapheap, throwing world records of poor men disproportionately black and Hispanic into prison for profit, suppressing the black vote, leaving millions without health coverage even after their reforms, etc. etc. and their so-called left don't even pretend to give a toss.  Me me me me me.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

Ole said:


> It is just hyper-narcissism masquerading as politics.



This ^^. Being cod-marxist about it, it's the superstructural, ideological expression of the substructural reality of modern consumer capitalism, utterly individualistic and self-obsessed.

But also neurotic, chronically dissatisfied and constantly fearful of threats to the self, so endlessly watchful and creating more and more "discourses" to impose obscure barricades of ideology between the self and others that can be used to deflect away even the whiff of criticism. Throw all this ^ into the twitchy, emotionally/physically de-contextualised, hype-machine that is modern social media and you have a horrible mix.

SA's complete inability to take back her ludicrous criticism of Helen Lewis is a perfect example of this. It would be like a genuine psychic death for her to publically apologise to a white woman (well she just about managed it to Mary Beard).


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2014)

Belief in this intersectionalista stuff also seems to come from people who closely link their politics to their fashion or music choices. Stuff that they consume. I think co-op is totally right, these beliefs are inseparable from individualistic consumerism.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

Ole said:


> That's your bog standard intersectionalist take on nearly everything; imported straight from the United States "left" which has been peddling this wank for years obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is a flag that flies above my heart, and Ole's name's writ there upon it.


----------



## Red Cat (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> This ^^. Being cod-marxist about it, it's the superstructural, ideological expression of the substructural reality of modern consumer capitalism, utterly individualistic and self-obsessed.
> 
> But also neurotic, chronically dissatisfied and constantly fearful of threats to the self, so endlessly watchful and creating more and more "discourses" to impose obscure barricades of ideology between the self and others that can be used to deflect away even the whiff of criticism. Throw all this ^ into the twitchy, emotionally/physically de-contextualised, hype-machine that is modern social media and you have a horrible mix.
> 
> SA's complete inability to take back her ludicrous criticism of Helen Lewis is a perfect example of this. It would be like a genuine psychic death for her to publically apologise to a white woman (well she just about managed it to Mary Beard).



Is that cod-Marxist? Doesn't seem too cod-like to me but maybe I'm a cod-thinker too. These cultures don't just happen cos people are cunts or a little bit irrational.

But I think the use of the word neurotic implies that we have nothing to be fearful of, that it's only a personal internal conflict, but I find it quite a frightening world. I don't want to be black and white about it because there's a lot I enjoy about life too, but job and financial insecurity, competition and constant change, the destruction of the welfare state and local public services, many people not having a sense of being part of a community etc.....it's very difficult in such circumstances to feel a sense of agency and autonomy and powerlessness _is_ very anxiety provoking.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> Is that cod-Marxist? Doesn't seem too cod-like to me but maybe I'm a cod-thinker too. These cultures don't just happen cos people are cunts or a little bit irrational.




I said that because I'm a bit neurotic about using Proper Theory on U75, there are a lot of people who know more about it than me. I read about Marx probably over 30 years ago now and I've forgotten a lot of what I read too.



Red Cat said:


> But I think the use of the word neurotic implies that we have nothing to be fearful of, that it's only a personal internal conflict, but I find it quite a frightening world. I don't want to be black and white about it because there's a lot I enjoy about life too, but job and financial insecurity, competition and constant change, the destruction of the welfare state and local public services, many people not having a sense of being part of a community etc.....it's very difficult in such circumstances to feel a sense of agency and autonomy and powerlessness _is_ very anxiety provoking.



The way you describe it is how I feel about it, I didn't mean that it wasn't real. In fact I meant that a neurotic population suits consumer capitalism well, it is almost a requirement of it, why else would so many people spend so much effort defining themselves through consumption & comparison? Contented people don't need constant reassurance.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

Ole said:


> That's your bog standard intersectionalist take on nearly everything; imported straight from the United States "left" which has been peddling this wank for years obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here's one American who seems to get the point:

http://publicautonomy.org/2014/01/27/the-rise-of-the-post-new-left-political-vocabulary/

"If a handful of time-travelling activists from our own era were somehow transported into a leftist political meeting in 1970, would they even be able to make themselves understood? They might begin to talk, as present-day activists do, about challenging privilege, the importance of allyship, or the need for intersectional analysis. Or they might insist that the meeting itself should be treated as a safe space. But how would the other people at the meeting react? I’m quite sure that our displaced contemporaries would be met with uncomprehending stares."


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

I love the notion that white women can't at once condemn domestic violence and rape by all men and still grasp racism. Is it being implied here that solidarity against male violence falls down at the colour line? A kind of we can criticise "our men" but you can't cos you're white? The implication being that men of colour only carry out violence against women because they are victims of racism, whilst white men are just upholding their power when they do it? Which is odd since violence towards women extends across many cultures where racism is largely absent. Can Sam as western woman in the first world criticise fgm or homophobia in the "3rd world"?

Are unemployed white males who carry out rapes above criticism from people with jobs or in middle class occupations?

As Sam isn't African american, is her place to condemn Tyson, after all the racism she has experience of isn't close to that inflicted upon African Americans both historically and ongoing? What happens if an African american women of colour calls her out?

So many questions...


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I love the notion that white women can't at once condemn domestic violence and rape by all men and still grasping racism. Is it being implied here that solidarity against male violence falls down at the colour line? A kind of we can criticise "our men" but you can't cos you're white? The implication being that men of colour only carry out violence against women because they are victims of racism, whilst white men are just upholding their power when they do it? Which is odd since violence towards women extends across many cultures where racism is largely absent. Can Sam as western woman in the first world criticise fgm or homophobia in the "3rd world"?
> 
> Are unemployed white males who carry out rapes above criticism from people with jobs or in middle class occupations?
> 
> So many questions...



I think this may be related to the particular conditions in the US. IIRC Angela Davis was opposed to mandatory sentencing for rape, because she held that in the "tough on crime" dogwhistle politics of post-Nixon America, this wouldn't help reduce rape, but would be simply used as a stick to beat Black people with.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I think this may be related to the particular conditions in the US. IIRC Angela Davis was opposed to mandatory sentencing for rape, because she held that in the "tough on crime" dogwhistle politics of post-Nixon America, this wouldn't help reduce rape, but would be simply used as a stick to beat Black people with.



I understand it in terms of political calls over sentencing and the empowering of the state but Sam is using it to attack white women for simply criticising the likes of Collymore and Tyson.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I think this may be related to the particular conditions in the US. IIRC Angela Davis was opposed to mandatory sentencing for rape, because she held that in the "tough on crime" dogwhistle politics of post-Nixon America, this wouldn't help reduce rape, but would be simply used as a stick to beat Black people with.



Yes I think a lot of it is people slurping up US ideas but being unable to see how they don't apply in the UK. The daftest example in my personal experience was someone (in a discussion in the UK) referring to black people (living in the UK) as "African Americans" - a stretch so far that he faltered as he said it and we were able to clear it up.

The thing is, this guy wasn't a jargon-spouting loony, he was just from an English city which was pretty much all white, the discussion was taking place in Brixton and so he was feeling nervous and trying to get it right. This would have been in the 90s when the term "African American" had just emerged and was the new correct one - in the USA. (where it has a logic and a resonance).


----------



## Red Cat (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> I said that because I'm a bit neurotic about using Proper Theory on U75, there are a lot of people who know more about it than me. I read about Marx probably over 30 years ago now and I've forgotten a lot of what I read too.



I'm not a very developed marxist thinker either but I don't think theory is something we need to be expert in to use it to help us think creatively. I don't think social change comes about through people being expert in theory so I find the idea that to post in p&p you have to 'know about' politics a bit weird. Surely politics is thinking and doing, trying things out..well, the kind of politics I want to be involved in is. 



co-op said:


> The way you describe it is how I feel about it, I didn't mean that it wasn't real. In fact I meant that a neurotic population suits consumer capitalism well, it is almost a requirement of it, why else would so many people spend so much effort defining themselves through consumption & comparison? Contented people don't need constant reassurance.



I think about this stuff quite a lot but I can't think of anything useful or interesting to say right now. I may come back to it


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

One little interesting twist in the development of some of these idea is the inversion from the Sojourner Truth Organisation-->Race Traitor and Ted Allen and Noel Ignatiev work from the central importance of _rejecting _whiteness and its privileges in order to reconfigure the class balance to the absolute _imposition _of whiteness and by extension absolute entrapment in that identity from outside - usually by people outside of those 'identities'.

edit: just to make clear, i'm not agreeing with the original idea, just noting how elements of it seem to hav ended up here, adrift and de-politicised - or de-socialised anyay.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> Would need a set of ordered lists for each axis of oppression.  Very easy for age, might be tricky for things like classism.


You could have a go at checking with sihhi but I think most of the cards will be on people involved in media and politics so there'd be a limited number of occupations. Be as arbitrary as possible, in keeping with the competitive and divisive nature of the game, and let the players battle it out. If you can actually be bothered to do something on this, you will certainly have earned your place in PD's hallowed 'silo of heroes'. (Anything to take the bare look off it)


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

It's a racket, a pathetic grasp for identity, the equivalent of teenagers hating it when other people like the same band. I'm the only oppressed in the village.

And a large part seems to motivated by envy at others making a media career out of it.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

OMG if someone makes an intersectionality battle cards app for android they would indeed be a proletarian hero.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> OMG if someone makes an intersectionality battle cards app for android they would indeed be a proletarian hero.


The winning card on that app would be not owning a smartphone.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

Greebo said:


> The winning card on that app would be not owning a smartphone.



In the maoist version your smartphone autodestructs - the profoundest form of self-criticism.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> In the maoist version your smartphone autodestructs - the profoundest form of self-criticism.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2014)

Is this a joke? 

http://micahmwhite.com/boutique-activist-consultancy/


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> http://micahmwhite.com/boutique-activist-consultancy/


Looks pretty serious to me.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> http://micahmwhite.com/boutique-activist-consultancy/



Jesus.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2014)

Adbusters guy. I think this was posted before. 


> I believe that #Occupy was a "social movement IPO" - early adopters who stayed true to the path should be given stipends.


----------



## cesare (Feb 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> http://micahmwhite.com/boutique-activist-consultancy/




I wonder where this figures on the pro or anti capitalist axis?


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 6, 2014)

Leave it to the professionals.  It's for your own good, the 'people's good.'


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> http://micahmwhite.com/boutique-activist-consultancy/





> *Today, December 1, opposition maverick Beppe Grillo surprised the global movement by welcoming Occupy founder Micah White to the stage of the 5 Star Movement's #OltreV3Day rally in Genova. White accepted Beppe Grillo's invitation to speak today on behalf of The Occupy Solidarity Network, the mutual aid non-profit founded by OccupyWallSt.org.*



"opposition maverick" huh?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> http://micahmwhite.com/boutique-activist-consultancy/



Camatte's racket at its most blatant.


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 6, 2014)

Greebo said:


> The winning card on that app would be not owning a smartphone.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

hiss elbow joints look a bit like the batty crease


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

They are also on the wrong side of his arms.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2014)

Twintersectionalist 'Mediocre Dave' is unhappy with Shearsmith and Pemberton's new show.



> Spoiler for the first episode of Inside No. 9 on iPlayer: it hinges on a crass an insensitive back story of child abuse, played for laughs.


He's done a few days working in panto iirc. It must be a living nightmare.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

intersectionalists must be great fun at parties.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 6, 2014)

golly, i hope mediocre dave never saw The League Of Gentlemen.  his head would have exploded.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

or Always Sunny...

The Implication...


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> intersectionalists must be great fun at parties.


 the cheese one the pineapple is a metaphor for rape with a cocktail stick


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> They are also on the wrong side of his arms.



Better than being ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

He's on the wrong side of evil lucien


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He's on the wrong side of evil lucien



Your references mean nothing to me, as I am ON THE WRONG SIDE OF FOOTBALL.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Your references mean nothing to me, as I am ON THE WRONG SIDE OF FOOTBALL.


Do you mean soccer?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Do you mean soccer?



Tomato, tohmahto.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Tomato, tohmahto.


It's just I've learnt that when Irish people say football they often mean GAA-ball


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 6, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> golly, i hope mediocre dave never saw The League Of Gentlemen.  his head would have exploded.


I have found him to be a perfectly nice, fairly well adjusted chap, mind (not that I've ever talked about Anything Serious with him).


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

White women aren't allowed to criticize men of other races for being rapists? 

What the actual fuck?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

Looking at OK cupid profiles the other day, there was a girl on there whose entire profile seemed to be about intersectionalism and full of intersectionalist language.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

If I was raped, and I told one of my friends and they were like 'that's really shit, but he was from Poland so I don't know if we should criticise it' wtf there's no way that conversation would ever happen and if it did I'd never speak to that person again.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

'So tell us what happened. But first of all, was he white?' 
'I don't remember anything after about 7pm last night'
'Yeah but was he white?'
'I don't know, I don't think so'
'You racist! Check your privilege!'


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It's just I've learnt that when Irish people say football they often mean GAA-ball



Wrong'uns


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Wrong'uns


Gaelic football is good fun to watch tho.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Gaelic football is good fun to watch tho.



No it's shite, it's like watching the old Wimbledon team but with more handball.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> No it's shite, it's like watching the old Wimbledon team but with more handball.


Aren't you a joy to be around.


----------



## toggle (Feb 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> White women aren't allowed to criticize men of other races for being rapists?
> 
> What the actual fuck?



I'm not sure, but I really don't get quite what she is saying half the time. I've spent quite some time looking at the criticisms of white M/C feminism. and I've found a lot of highly critical pieces, written by WOC on their experiences and views of feminism, that I strongly agree with that have definitely affected how i view myself as a feminist and how i discuss feminism in general. but this is not one of them. 

firstly there's a rant about Caroline Criado Perez sharing a platform with Collymore. that yes he does experience racism, but sharing a platform with him when discussing feminist issues is not Ok cause he's an abuser. but also a rant that he wouldn't be given the same chance for public rehabilitation as a white abuser would. there's no real explanation of how these two apparently contradictory positions fit together.

there's a rant about one author's comment on tyson, which is being extrapolated into the opinions of all white people

the sentences against sexual abusers are too lenient, yes I aggree. and the Duggan verdict was also shit. but there is no explanation of how she is directly equating the two. Just a statement on which we are all supposed to agree. I happen to agree that the justice system is institutionally racist, but this is a rant, not a coherent argument for that position.

She's got a point in how some white feminists attach themselves to campaigns that are on issues that are present within minority communities, without any real understanding of the issues, and putting themselves to the forefront rather than engaging with the women working on those issues within their communities and using their media presence to highlight the work that is being done by black women's groups rather than just standing up on a blurred version of the issue.but she is also criticizing those women for campaigning on other issues that she deems irrelevant. it makes it feel like a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't position. so you may as well ignore it and move on with what you were doing anyway. 

There's a fair few places where I agree with her where I can work out the actual position behind the rant. There's a place for a damn good rant about the bullshit of sexism, racism and a great deal else. but there's also a place for a decent coherent argument. and this mixes up the two and is fairly useless at both.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Aren't you a joy to be around.



even more fun when it's rugby on the tv...


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> even more fun when it's rugby on the tv...


I hate rugby more than you. I've tried to like it, I really have. Yet egg-hand-ball will forever be anathema to me.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Looking at OK cupid profiles the other day, there was a girl on there whose entire profile seemed to be about intersectionalism and full of intersectionalist language.




intersextionalism

mind you I had to raise my eyebrow on the whole 'race play' thing. The twittersectionals must have been popping veins and going gran mal seizure on that one...


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> intersextionalism
> 
> mind you I had to raise my eyebrow on the whole 'race play' thing. The twittersectionals must have been popping veins and going gran mal seizure on that one...


Dare I google it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Dare I google it?




it's people doing race-played things in the bedroom like a woman playing the southern belle and treating the black partner like a slave etc. I'm broad minded, but my eyebrow was raised. Apparently its healthy and negates the power of prejudices by something or other. Eyebrow.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> intersextionalism
> 
> mind you I had to raise my eyebrow on the whole 'race play' thing. The twittersectionals must have been popping veins and going gran mal seizure on that one...



but what would they do if the hypothetical one legged black lesbian trans woman had popped up and defended it, talk over her, negate her experience?

they'd be fucked, cause none of them have anything approaching a theoretical framework, they just boo and hiss on a series of issues, desperately trying to be more right on than the next person. They say they are sex positive and are cool enough to now old school rad fems are wrong about sex work, porn, bdsm and trans but fucked if they could weave their positions into a coherent world view, which for all their faults isn't something rad fems struggle on, though coherent clearly doesn't mean not shite.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> it's people doing race-played things in the bedroom like a woman playing the southern belle and treating the black partner like a slave etc. I'm broad minded, but my eyebrow was raised. Apparently its healthy and negates the power of prejudices by something or other. Eyebrow.


Oh, bit like me and the wife when I break out the viking helmet and treat her like my Irish slave-girl then


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Oh, bit like me and the wife when I break out the viking helmet and treat her like my Irish slave-girl then



I'm calling you out! Only Irish men are allowed to treat Irish women like shit! #killvikingscum


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Oh, bit like me and the wife when I break out the viking helmet and treat her like my Irish slave-girl then


when you quite literally get the horn


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> intersectionalists must be great fun at parties.



They're busy being oppressed by other people's 'being invited' privilege.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> when you quite literally get the horn


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> when you quite literally get the horn


----------



## toggle (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> but what would they do if the hypothetical one legged black lesbian trans woman had popped up and defended it, talk over her, negate her experience?
> 
> they'd be fucked, cause none of them have anything approaching a theoretical framework, they just boo and hiss on a series of issues, desperately trying to be more right on than the next person. They say they are sex positive and are cool enough to now old school rad fems are wrong about sex work, porn, bdsm and trans but fucked if they could weave their positions into a coherent world view, which for all their faults isn't something rad fems struggle on, though coherent clearly doesn't mean not shite.



tell me about it. but I'm not sure I could entirely out my own views into words without cocking it all up.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> No it's shite, it's like watching the old Wimbledon team but with more handball.


 racist


----------



## Crispy (Feb 6, 2014)

Not a single horned helmet has ever been found at any Viking archaeological site, or anywhere else, or in any contemporary accounts.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not a single horned helmet has ever been found at any Viking archaeological site, or anywhere else, or in any contemporary accounts.


Be quiet, SLAVE.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not a single horned helmet has ever been found at any Viking archaeological site, or anywhere else, or in any contemporary accounts.



Well look at you and your fucking fact privilege, coming in here and lording it over oppressed myths. For shame!


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> it's people doing race-played things in the bedroom like a woman playing the southern belle and treating the black partner like a slave etc. I'm broad minded, but my eyebrow was raised. Apparently its healthy and negates the power of prejudices by something or other. Eyebrow.



So ok I can see that white people (especially ones from the USA) getting their rocks off on whipping black people is tricky - although god knows sexual desire seems pretty un-PC (the old gag; Q. 'is sex dirty?' A. 'only if you're doing it right')

But what about masochism? I used to live next door to a dom and she had a nazi uniform which she kept for putting on when she had a jewish client who wanted to act out *that* scenario, quite a commonplace one for jewish masochists apparently...I mean - is he allowed to do this? Is she? 

Back to the USA black/white slave game - I mean what about African-American masochists who want to play out this role? I mean you either ban masochism all together - or you can expect it to find expression in the roles and uniforms etc etc of the culturally appropriate 'most-realistic' humiliation - which will be the real life historical (or contemporaneous) version. And - back to the is-sex-dirty? gag - presumably the more taboo the humiliation the hotter it is. 

Consenting adults and all that.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

yeah telling someone they shouldn't engage in race play or bdsm or whatever because it's degrading is kind of missing the point.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2014)

Speaking of Vikings, it's the 1000th anniversary of the Battle Of Clontarf this year. What would an intersectional bien-pensant's analysis look like. A mere white on white contretemps? Or the totally fascist butchery of an ethnic minority.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 6, 2014)

i suspect we need to examine each case individually.  so if you can all submit videos of your sex practices to me, i will examine each case ideaologically and put the results on twitter.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 6, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not a single horned helmet has ever been found at any Viking archaeological site, or anywhere else, or in any contemporary accounts.


 
this identity shaming must stop, you cisgendered anti-viking hatemonger.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Speaking of Vikings, it's the 1000th anniversary of the Battle Of Clontarf this year. What would an intersectional bien-pensant's analysis look like. A mere white on white contretemps? Or the totally fascist butchery of an ethnic minority.


I think also, Alvarenga. There's some stuff going on here.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> So ok I can see that white people (especially ones from the USA) getting their rocks off on whipping black people is tricky - although god knows sexual desire seems pretty un-PC (the old gag; Q. 'is sex dirty?' A. 'only if you're doing it right')
> 
> But what about masochism? I used to live next door to a dom and she had a nazi uniform which she kept for putting on when she had a jewish client who wanted to act out *that* scenario, quite a commonplace one for jewish masochists apparently...I mean - is he allowed to do this? Is she?
> 
> ...




Its not my business what consenting adults do in the bedroom, the fact that its so out of order like slaves and slave owners and Nazis and Jews is part of what turns people on I think, if its consenting and there are no kids or animals involved you can't really decide to say that certain fetishes are off limits when its the whole being off limits thing that turns people on


----------



## Ole (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Here's one American who seems to get the point:
> 
> http://publicautonomy.org/2014/01/27/the-rise-of-the-post-new-left-political-vocabulary/
> 
> "If a handful of time-travelling activists from our own era were somehow transported into a leftist political meeting in 1970, would they even be able to make themselves understood? They might begin to talk, as present-day activists do, about challenging privilege, the importance of allyship, or the need for intersectional analysis. Or they might insist that the meeting itself should be treated as a safe space. But how would the other people at the meeting react? I’m quite sure that our displaced contemporaries would be met with uncomprehending stares."



I found this quite depressing, in how seemingly accepted and definitive this 'privilege'/'calling out' jargon has become in and of the American left, especially because it looks so piss-poor side by side with the meaningful political vocabulary he contrasts it with. To be honest, I can't bring myself to sincerely refer to them as leftists or even activists. The actual political action they propose to achieve social change with seems to be limited — literally — to attempting to police people's language and actions with guilt-trips. Try and translate that into actually challenging power structures which have long since had the values that serve their power established into the fabric of society.

How do you challenge your boss using these tactics? Call them out on their boss's privilege? It's fucking useless. It's not designed to challenge power.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

It's all academic student stuff. Private liberal college stuff. Real world stuff it's not and can't play in.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2014)

Ole said:


> How do you challenge your boss using these tactics? Call them out on their boss's privilege? It's fucking useless. It's not designed to challenge power.



I've thought for a while that if I were in charge of trying to hamstring any movement attempting progressive social change then I would try my best to disseminate this ideology.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2014)

devils advocat [sic]: i gather the original round of PC language thinking came from the same liberal US universities and those ideas did trickle out to create new cultural norms over time... could more of the same happen here?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

ska invita said:


> devils advocat [sic]: i gather the original round of PC language thinking came from the same liberal US universities and those ideas did trickle out to create new cultural norms over time... could more of the same happen here?


Cultural norms? They couldn't be further from cultural norms if they tried. They're class bolund elitist terms/worldviews and concepts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Its not my business what consenting adults do in the bedroom, the fact that its so out of order like slaves and slave owners and Nazis and Jews is part of what turns people on I think, if its consenting and there are no kids or animals involved you can't really decide to say that certain fetishes are off limits when its the whole being off limits thing that turns people on



Transgressive sex *within* the bounds of legality (and, dare I say, propriety) has always been a feature of normative sexuality, however much people may have tried to imply that it isn't.  I refuse to judge fetish behaviour (except adult babies) because most of it , while transgressive, isn't morally or legally repugnant.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cultural norms? They couldn't be further from cultural norms if they tried. They're class bolund elitist terms/worldviews and concepts.


Seriously, the only norm this are for is for themselves. (cheers etc)


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Transgressive sex *within* the bounds of legality (and, dare I say, propriety) has always been a feature of normative sexuality, however much people may have tried to imply that it isn't.  I refuse to judge fetish behaviour (except adult babies) because most of it , while transgressive, isn't morally or legally repugnant.



Why the exception for adult babies? Not criticising, seems weird to me. Is it cos of a link to paedophiles?


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yeah telling someone they shouldn't engage in race play or bdsm or whatever because it's degrading* is kind of missing the point*.






Kind of.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2014)

The Gospel comes to New Guinea



> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*3 hrs
> I made a simple risotto for a household that'd been existing on something like Soylent; they were so excited it was like I'd fed them drugs.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> The Gospel comes to New Guinea



For an awful moment there I thought you meant that she was actually in Papua New Guinea, where people have enough problems already.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2014)

Risotto civilising mission lol


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Risotto civilising mission lol



_Avanti popolo, a la risotto. . . _


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Why the exception for adult babies? Not criticising, seems weird to me. Is it cos of a link to paedophiles?



i think it's just a joke about how weird it is, it's kinda the opposite of paedononcery.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> _Avanti popolo, a la risotto. . . _


_
piatto rosso, piatto rosso_


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

Ole said:


> I found this quite depressing, in how seemingly accepted and definitive this 'privilege'/'calling out' jargon has become in and of the American left, especially because it looks so piss-poor side by side with the meaningful political vocabulary he contrasts it with. To be honest, I can't bring myself to sincerely refer to them as leftists or even activists. The actual political action they propose to achieve social change with seems to be limited — literally — to attempting to police people's language and actions with guilt-trips. Try and translate that into actually challenging power structures which have long since had the values that serve their power established into the fabric of society.
> 
> How do you challenge your boss using these tactics? Call them out on their boss's privilege? It's fucking useless. It's not designed to challenge power.



HR: If you go on strike, you could face severe consequences
Union: Check your privilege


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> when you quite literally get the horn



Yet more of the racism there


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> For an awful moment there I thought you meant that she was actually in Papua New Guinea, where people have enough problems already.


 

Could give her more to write about


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

Ole said:


> I found this quite depressing, in how seemingly accepted and definitive this 'privilege'/'calling out' jargon has become in and of the American left, especially because it looks so piss-poor side by side with the meaningful political vocabulary he contrasts it with. To be honest, I can't bring myself to sincerely refer to them as leftists or even activists. The actual political action they propose to achieve social change with seems to be limited — literally — to attempting to police people's language and actions with guilt-trips. Try and translate that into actually challenging power structures which have long since had the values that serve their power established into the fabric of society.
> 
> How do you challenge your boss using these tactics? Call them out on their boss's privilege? It's fucking useless. It's not designed to challenge power.



No, it's designed to cow those who aren't invested in it, to dominate and silence opposition to the ideology, not to advance the sum of human happiness or provide an alternative politics of governance.  It's top-down authoritarianism dressed up in a critique of social inequality, which it uses as a lever to open doors, rather than as a basis for formulating action.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's all academic student stuff. Private liberal college stuff. Real world stuff it's not and can't play in.



And, as usual, it's a "social science" idea, mostly borrowed by humanities students who think a "social construction" is a council house.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> HR: If you go on strike, you could face severe consequences
> Union: Check your privilege


HR: I have a stack of CVs on my desk you know.
Union: _<Waggly hands>_
HR: ?
Union: You're ugly. It would be oppressive of me to assert my attractiveness privilege so I defer to you. STEPPING BACK!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I've thought for a while that if I were in charge of trying to hamstring any movement attempting progressive social change then I would try my best to disseminate this ideology.



As I've said before (possibly _ad nauseam_  ), a generation ago, similar identity-based politics did for "the left" as a cohesive political force.  What generally came under the aegis of "socialism" became a fractured bunch of social "isms", as everyone competed for recognition, for funding and for political dominance.  Obviously, prior to that we had factions, but each faction was generally socially diverse in and of itself.  After the turn to identity politics, many factions were, bluntly, monocultural.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cultural norms? They couldn't be further from cultural norms if they tried. They're class bolund elitist terms/worldviews and concepts.


what arent cultural norms, the first wave of PC language stuff, or this wave? Arguably the first wave werent cultural norms but are now


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

ska invita said:


> what arent cultural norms, the first wave of PC language stuff, or this wave? Arguably the first wave werent cultural norms but are now


They're not cultural norms. If you follow this logic that any private school nonsense will become a cultural norm then what are you left with? Silly post.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Why the exception for adult babies? Not criticising, seems weird to me. Is it cos of a link to paedophiles?



Nope, it's just that in my humble opinion, adult babies are beyond the pale. If you want to piss and shit yourself, fine, but don't do it wearing a babygro - have some self-respect!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Could give her more to write about


delete 'write' insert "witter'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

ska invita said:


> what arent cultural norms, the first wave of PC language stuff, or this wave? Arguably the first wave werent cultural norms but are now



The first wave of politically-correct definitions still aren't cultural norms.
How do we know this?  Because those definitions, and even the concept itself, are still antagonistic to most of society - they are still not broadly accepted.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, it's just that in my humble opinion, adult babies are beyond the pale. If you want to piss and shit yourself, fine, but don't do it wearing a babygro - have some self-respect!




yeah I'd be more comfortable if they were wearing Nazi outfits tbh


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yeah telling someone they shouldn't engage in race play or bdsm or whatever because it's degrading is kind of missing the point.




well quite. But eyebrow anyway.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

Baby nazis.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 6, 2014)

i guess therapy is harder work and more difficult than sex-play.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> well quite. But eyebrow anyway.



oh come on all that black leather and death skulls and shit, there's no denying its sexual appeal, gay men have been appropriating it for decades. 

Sorry thought you were replying to my nazi uniforms post.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not a single horned helmet has ever been found at any Viking archaeological site, or anywhere else, or in any contemporary accounts.



not even the Horn of Plenty?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2014)

Hornvik


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> oh come on all that black leather and death skulls and shit, there's no denying its sexual appeal, gay men have been appropriating it for decades.
> 
> Sorry thought you were replying to my nazi uniforms post.



redcoats and dogs here, the nazis did loudly for 30 what the british empire did quietly for 400 years. England prevails! 


it is a bit wrong though.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Baby nazis.





Triumph of the Rusk


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Triumph of the Rusk



Mein Camphor


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

afterbirth of a nation


lets not pun the thread to death AGAIN


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The first wave of politically-correct definitions still aren't cultural norms.
> How do we know this?  Because those definitions, and even the concept itself, are still antagonistic to most of society - they are still not broadly accepted.


i disagree, i think theyre broadly accepted in many key areas (media for example), even if the term PC winds people up, people still act much more PC than they mightve 20 years ago anyway.


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's all academic student stuff. Private liberal college stuff. Real world stuff it's not and can't play in.



surprised you didn't have this lined up as an example.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> surprised you didn't have this lined up as an example.


See this.


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 6, 2014)

Just a wee thought out loud on this sex-play stuff. A lot of it sounds to me more like power-play than sex-play, if you see what I mean. This may come from the eroticisation of the dominance / submission relationship. This might go as well for the sort of rougher porn that is produced nowadays - the sex seems to me to be a side issue, the erotic charge comes from the formal submission to hierarchy, not from the sex act itself. This is the sort of thing one would expect from an extremely hierarchical, inflexible social order I guess.

I only got dressed up as a Nazi once, when I was an extra in a film. It was not very erotic. But each to their own and all that.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

To be honest if someone wanted to act out a Nazi fantasy with me after I'd finished laughing I would tell them to fuck off and probably dine out on the story for years to come. I'm not sure if that means I need to check my 'not having strange fetishes' privilege or if it means I'm an anti oppression hero


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> afterbirth of a nation
> 
> 
> lets not pun the thread to death AGAIN



Pamper Division


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 6, 2014)

Desert Rattles


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Triumph of the Rusk



Dummykopf


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 6, 2014)

_Der Ewige Youth_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 6, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Desert Rattles


The Desert Chickenpox


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

Die Rothschild's


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

Fatherlandcare


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

baby belsen


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

also remember that time an officers plot to kill the monoballed monster was unsuccessful cos of an oak table that soaked up most of the blast? Death to acorns.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> To be honest if someone wanted to act out a Nazi fantasy with me after I'd finished laughing I would tell them to fuck off and probably dine out on the story for years to come. I'm not sure if that means I need to check my 'not having strange fetishes' privilege or if it means I'm an anti oppression hero




I found it unreasonably hilarious when the papers outed mosely's grandson as a man who paid ladies of the night to dress as nazi camp guards and flog him. Thats gold.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Just a wee thought out loud on this sex-play stuff. A lot of it sounds to me more like power-play than sex-play, if you see what I mean. This may come from the eroticisation of the dominance / submission relationship. This might go as well for the sort of rougher porn that is produced nowadays - the sex seems to me to be a side issue, the erotic charge comes from the formal submission to hierarchy, not from the sex act itself. This is not the sort of thing one would expect from an extremely hierarchical, inflexible social order I guess.
> 
> I only got dressed up as a Nazi once, when I was an extra in a film. It was not very erotic. But each to their own and all that.



you were Herr Flic in Allo Allo?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> ...to dress as nazi camp guards...



I'm not the type to wail about “you're putting the boards in danger waaah!” - I don't really care - but bear in mind that the millionaire to whom you refer successfully sued Murdoch's rag for making that unsubstantiated claim. You, on the other hand, can't remember who's who in a Danny Dyer film scene (or, indeed, the patrilineage of the person you are potentially defaming).


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm not the type to wail about “you're putting the boards in danger waaah!” - I don't really care - but bear in mind that the millionaire to whom you refer successfully sued Murdoch's rag for making that unsubstantiated claim. You, on the other hand, can't remember who's who in a Danny Dyer film scene (or, indeed, the patrilineage of the person you are potentially defaming).




I am only making a value judgement about something I wish to be true.


----------



## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

ska invita said:


> i disagree, i think theyre broadly accepted in many key areas (media for example), even if the term PC winds people up, people still act much more PC than they mightve 20 years ago anyway.



Isn't the point of the term "politically correct" that it was a right wing sneer at obsessive right-on-ness about language? It was lampooning it as Soviet-style imposed public behaviour (with the corresponding suggestion that in private all these same PC-speakers actually didn't believe or practise any of it, so it was hypocritical).

Racism, homophobia, sexism are all much less publically acceptable than they were 20 years ago, I'm sure that's right, but I doubt whether it was the word-policing identity merchant equivalents of Sam Ambreen who achieved this. In fact by spawning counter-terms like "PC" they effectively gave loads of people a way out of having to deal with it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 6, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yeah telling someone they shouldn't engage in race play or bdsm or whatever because it's degrading is kind of missing the point.



Thing is, I think they have to be sex positive about black people doing it and call out the racism at the same time. So Black people can do it - but not with White people!


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> Isn't the point of the term "politically correct" that it was a right wing sneer at obsessive right-on-ness about language? It was lampooning it as Soviet-style imposed public behaviour (with the corresponding suggestion that in private all these same PC-speakers actually didn't believe or practise any of it, so it was hypocritical).
> 
> Racism, homophobia, sexism are all much less publically acceptable than they were 20 years ago, I'm sure that's right, but I doubt whether it was the word-policing identity merchant equivalents of Sam Ambreen who achieved this. In fact by spawning counter-terms like "PC" they effectively gave loads of people a way out of having to deal with it.


thats interesting - i dont know the roots of the term PC, but I remember reading that much of the 'correct terminology' was born of US academia, and then migrated out from there as post-grads got into positions of power and influence. When I get a chance I'll see if i can find some links on that.

I'm not defending individuals such as Sam, I was just making a general point that if new socio-political-cultural-intersectionist-etc positions are gaining real traction on US campuses that doesn't necessarily mean they remain divorced eternally from the real world - academia does have an impact on the real world over time. Whether any of these ideas can have any kind of transformative effect (intended or otherwise) remains to be seen <it's certainly structurally possible that they might.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Thing is, I think they have to be sex positive about black people doing it and call out the racism at the same time. So Black people can do it - but not with White people!



My walls are dripping wet and theres black mould on the ceiling. Can anyone give me an intersectional perspective about that?


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## brogdale (Feb 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My walls are dripping wet and theres black mould on the ceiling. Can anyone give me an intersectional perspective about that?


 Black mould, eh? Nice try....


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## smokedout (Feb 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm not the type to wail about “you're putting the boards in danger waaah!” - I don't really care - but bear in mind that the millionaire to whom you refer successfully sued Murdoch's rag for making that unsubstantiated claim. You, on the other hand, can't remember who's who in a Danny Dyer film scene (or, indeed, the patrilineage of the person you are potentially defaming).



the claim cannot be mentioned because it was in breach of Mosley's privacy, and because the part of it which might have ruled it was in the public interest to mention the claim was unsubstantiated.  Mosley didnt have a leg to stand on with a libel case.  neither would he have had a chance had the sun argued it was in the public interest because Mosley broke the laws relating to brothel keeping, the only reason I can think of that they didnt do that is because it would have implicated their source as well.

sorry, digression, but it always pissed me off that unrepentant fascist Mosley got away with this


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## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

ska invita said:


> thats interesting - i dont know the roots of the term PC, but I remember reading that much of the 'correct terminology' was born of US academia, and then migrated out from there as post-grads got into positions of power and influence. When I get a chance I'll see if i can find some links on that.



But this kind of 'correct terminology' constantly mutates so there's never a Final Correct Version to migrate anywhere that actually lets everyone talk one language.

I'm old enough to remember the polite term for black people in the UK being 'coloured' - I assume that was because 'black' had negative connotations of evil or bad - so Black Wednesday, Black September etc. So this was a PC term if you like. Then the word was 'reclaimed' and you get Black (and because 'coloured' was inherently racist because if a white person said it, you effectively said 'we're not coloured, we're normal', right?)  - and there was an attempted extension to include 'asian' under that umbrella 'black' as a unificatory thing (eg Southall Black Sisters). That never took flight though - presumably at least partly because the incredibly complex skin-grade/caste/status/class matrix which runs through UK-Asian societies has one base simplicity to it, i.e lighter = better and Black was a doomed label here (I guess that Sam Ambreen's identity and obsession with colour has its roots right here). Now we're back at 'colour' but it's PoC/WoC etc etc. I don't like the term(s) because of the basic logic that_ everyone_ is a person of colour and when you bend words out of shape you start making people awkward and we're back at having a priesthood to tell us why last years word is SO wrong and only a racist would be caught using it.

What are the 'correct terms' that US academia has generated that have endured?


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## weepiper (Feb 6, 2014)

Hold on... We can't treat black men who rape and white men who rape with the same contempt because we're white? Black men should get special consideration for having committed sexual abuse? That sounds dangerously close to saying 'well, you can't expect anything better from them after all. That's just how they are'. Which is pretty fucking racist.


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## co-op (Feb 6, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Hold on... We can't treat black men who rape and white men who rape with the same contempt because we're white? Black men should get special consideration for having committed sexual abuse? That sounds dangerously close to saying 'well, you can't expect anything better from them after all. That's just how they are'. Which is pretty fucking racist.



I think if you're white you might be allowed to slightly slag off Stan Collymore because he's mixed race.


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## J Ed (Feb 6, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Hold on... We can't treat black men who rape and white men who rape with the same contempt because we're white? Black men should get special consideration for having committed sexual abuse? That sounds dangerously close to saying 'well, you can't expect anything better from them after all. That's just how they are'. Which is pretty fucking racist.



If you go to a mostly white private school I imagine it's easy to transition into that mode of thinking


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## Sue (Feb 6, 2014)

I still haven't got this intersectionalist thing. I know there's the wheel of oppression -- if I don't really understand it -- but is there a quick reference card, like 'x points for being black, y points for being female, z points for being disabled' or whatever? Then everyone would just have a score and it'd be be easier all round -- you could just trump people by calling out your score, rather than having to call people out about specific things.

Or have I completely misunderstood? Surely points *always* make prizes...?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 6, 2014)

was 15 when someone told me 'I'm not coloured I'm black' in response to what I thought was a sensitive description of the mans colour. Black is is a cultural identifyer these days. Christ sake I don't want to to remember this but not three weeks ago my brother was justifying a crass joke about slavery (i know) by saying 'there's only one black man here and he's my mate aint you kelvin'. At which point I'm looking aside at the lighter skinned black man jesse and thinking 'is he gonna say something?'. Course he didn't but he didn't look fucking happy either. Did pull bro on it but it's like water of a ducks back, I'm just sooo precious and lefty etc

fucking does my head in


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## ska invita (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> What are the 'correct terms' that US academia has generated that have endured?


My point here is that US academia does have an influence on the real world. I don't live in the US so its hard for me to comment, but I'm just stating what i understand to be a fact that terms such as African-American, Native-American, Challenged instead of disabled, impaired, person instead of man (chairperson for example), staffed instead of manned, differently-so and so, and so on, originated from US universities. I'm sure there are many others. According to wikipedia one of the first recorded uses of the term CIS was by a student from the University of Minnesota.

Again, whether all the intersectional privilege theory and so on will have an impact beyond the ivory towers in the future I've no idea. Ive no idea how truly prevalent it is now, or what its like in a US university. I'm just making the point that it is possible for these kinds of things to have an impact in the real world, and that the fact this stuff is happening there doesn't mean it can be dismissed as irrelevant and ineffectual just because it happening _there_.

As a complete aside, the biggest contemporary example of a US university having an impact on global culture has to go to the Chicago school for its economics department. The fuckers


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## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2014)

I get the feeling some of these people would REALLY struggle in a non academic non activist environment tbh


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## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

ska invita said:


> My point here is that US academia does have an influence on the real world. I don't live in the US so its hard for me to comment, but I'm just stating what i understand to be a fact that terms such as African-American, Native-American, Challenged instead of disabled, impaired, person instead of man (chairperson for example), staffed instead of manned, differently-so and so, and so on, originated from US universities. I'm sure there are many others. According to wikipedia one of the first recorded uses of the term CIS was by a student from the University of Minnesota.
> 
> Again, whether all the intersectional privilege theory and so on will have an impact beyond the ivory towers in the future I've no idea. Ive no idea how truly prevalent it is now, or what its like in a US university. I'm just making the point that it is possible for these kinds of things to have an impact in the real world, and that the fact this stuff is happening there doesn't mean it can be dismissed as irrelevant and ineffectual just because it happening _there_.
> 
> As a complete aside, the biggest contemporary example of a US university having an impact on global culture has to go to the Chicago school for its economics department. The fuckers


Of course it can be dismissed as irrelevant and ineffectual just because it happening there.


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## SpackleFrog (Feb 6, 2014)

Thing is, yes its true that these ideas will probably spread over time now that they've been imported from the US, but because of the specific nature of the ideas, there's only so far they're really like to spread, not least because as DotCommunist just illustrated, racism and sexism are everywhere. When you "call people out" constantly, you piss far more off than you convince, and eventually you only have each other to call out, which leads to any group or community that follows these ideas to fracture, isolate themselves and write some rather sad blogs. These ideas don't have the potential to develop past a certain level of support in society, anymore than say the Weekly Worker website has the potential to interest anyone who isnt a lefty trainspotter. Look at post-modernist political theorists; they've been largely ignored by society as a whole.


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## TruXta (Feb 6, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Thing is, yes its true that these ideas will probably spread over time now that they've been imported from the US, but because of the specific nature of the ideas, there's only so far they're really like to spread, not least because as DotCommunist just illustrated, racism and sexism are everywhere. When you "call people out" constantly, you piss far more off than you convince, and eventually you only have each other to call out, which leads to any group or community that follows these ideas to fracture, isolate themselves and write some rather sad blogs. These ideas don't have the potential to develop past a certain level of support in society, anymore than say the Weekly Worker website has the potential to interest anyone who isnt a lefty trainspotter. Look at post-modernist political theorists; they've been largely ignored by society as a whole.



True so far as popular culture and awareness goes, but you have to look at the positions these people get into wrt shaping political decisions. Which isn't me saying these things like innersectionalism has had political weight (yet), but that things don't always have to be popular or well-known to carry power.


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## Crispy (Feb 6, 2014)

co-op said:


> But this kind of 'correct terminology' constantly mutates so there's never a Final Correct Version to migrate anywhere that actually lets everyone talk one language.


Because language is always co-opted by power. Without change in power relations, change in language is just cosmetic at best.


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## treelover (Feb 7, 2014)

Ole said:


> I found this quite depressing, in how seemingly accepted and definitive this 'privilege'/'calling out' jargon has become in and of the American left, especially because it looks so piss-poor side by side with the meaningful political vocabulary he contrasts it with. To be honest, I can't bring myself to sincerely refer to them as leftists or even activists. The actual political action they propose to achieve social change with seems to be limited — literally — to attempting to police people's language and actions with guilt-trips. Try and translate that into actually challenging power structures which have long since had the values that serve their power established into the fabric of society.
> 
> How do you challenge your boss using these tactics? Call them out on their boss's privilege? It's fucking useless. It's not designed to challenge power.



Naomi Kline was writing about how identity politics was dominating the academic/campus left, etc in the 90's, it wasn't as extreme as now, but it was there


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## emanymton (Feb 7, 2014)

What is the origin of the word 'cis' anyway? Is it just a made up term, or does it have some history I am unaware of?


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## fishfinger (Feb 7, 2014)

emanymton said:


> What is the origin of the word 'cis' anyway? Is it just a made up term, or does it have some history I am unaware of?


According to wiki, it was made up by Carl Buijs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender


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## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2014)

from cisgender, which means the same as hetro/straight afaik.


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## co-op (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Of course it can be dismissed as irrelevant and ineffectual just because it happening there.



But anyway these "terms from US academia" -  what were they? As I remember it the "PC-isation" of langauage was primarily about getting rid of words like "nigger" or "poof" or whatever. But 90% of those words were already well understood to be offensive anyway, and were used with that intent (there were subtle ones too - eg "coloured" - that were less clearly defined in terms of intent but became seen as patronising). So it wasn't clever new words from US academia that changed anything it was the increasing unacceptability of expressing racist/sexist/homophobic etc views publically. And then the language that was used to express those views just fell away as a result.

Even in the US I wonder how much academia has really produced here; terms like "African American" do a job in the US since they provide an analogue for black people to the range of origin-identities that are routinely used for white people - "Italian-American", "Irish-American" etc etc, in a self-consciously immigrant culture like the US this is important, in a culture that conceals its immigration (like the UK) is isn't, in fact it would be exclusionary. 'African American' is also handy because it gets away from colour and thus away from the 'who is REALLY black?' question that inevitably follows, and all the (obviously damaging) potential for racial hierarchy there, - quadroons, octoroons, red, yellow etc etc. It is just - 'do you claim African heritage, yes/no?'

So the term is useful - but does it come from academia? Google says that it emerged from black american communities and was then used in a speech by Jesse Jackson in 1988 which was when it first broke into a wider public there. Don't know if that's true, but it sounds a lot more likely than that it was cooked up in a university and then caught on in black communities, that just sounds implausible to me. Black US communities have spent most of the 20thC very much involved in rejecting externally imposed terms for how they will be described for obvious reasons (eg the previously neutral 'negro') - often in conflicting ways ('coloured' vs 'black' etc etc) and it just sounds really unlikely that they'd suddenly let a load of white academics decide how they'll be named. 

But I'd be interested if anyone has the full story on the term 'African-American'.


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## emanymton (Feb 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> from cisgender, which means the same as hetro/straight afaik.


Yeah, I know what I means, but why cis I have never heard it in any other context. Homo and hetro have an established meaning. Going to check fishfinger's link now.


ETA - apparently it is a Latin prefix meaning 'on the side of'.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Yeah, I know what I means, but why cis I have never heard it in any other context. Homo and hetro have an established meaning. Going to check fishfinger's link now.
> 
> 
> ETA - apparently it is a Latin prefix meaning 'on the side of'.


cf cisalpine and transalpine gaul


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## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

emanymton said:


> What is the origin of the word 'cis' anyway? Is it just a made up term, or does it have some history I am unaware of?


all language is made up


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## emanymton (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> all language is made up


Indeed it is. Hence I was asking if it is a newly made up term or an established one I was unaware of. Appears to be the second.


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## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> all language is made up


do you never get bored being a pedantic literalist fuckwit?


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## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Indeed it is. Hence I was asking if it is a newly made up term or an established one I was unaware of. Appears to be the second.


so it's a made up term with a history you were unaware of.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> do you never get bored being a pedantic literalist fuckwit?


yer man asked if it was a made up term. i pointed out that's not a useful category in language. you seem to want a scrap. someone call you a cunt? thought you'd be used to it by now.


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## co-op (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> do you never get bored being a pedantic literalist fuckwit?



Ignore function is your friend.


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## BigTom (Feb 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> from cisgender, which means the same as hetro/straight afaik.



Nah, nothing to do with straight/gay, as has been said cis is the Latin antonym to trans so cisgender is the opposite to trans gender, eg being born in the right body genderwise.
So there are plenty of cis / lgbt ppl, and trans hetero too.

I like cis as a word, I think there should be a word to go with trans and cis has linguistic roots which make it a good word to use.


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## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yer man asked if it was a made up term. i pointed out that's not a useful category in language. you seem to want a scrap. someone call you a cunt? thought you'd be used to it by now.



it's quite obvious what made up meant in the context, most would understand it as shorthand for "recently" explicitly "invented" rather than having longer more organic basis. Of course that would have denied you the opportunity to be the pedantic twat you seem to revel in.


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## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Nah, nothing to do with straight/gay, as has been said cis is the Latin antonym to trans so cisgender is the opposite to trans gender, eg being born in the right body genderwise.
> So there are plenty of cis / lgbt ppl, and trans hetero too.
> 
> I like cis as a word, I think there should be a word to go with trans and cis has linguistic roots which make it a good word to use.



well from a gender theory perspective I take issue with it as it implies that non trans people don't experience gender as problematic, disjointing and often violent.

the idea of being born in the wrong body is reactionary crap, a slap in the face to feminism that has fought biological essentialism for hundreds of years.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 7, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Nah, nothing to do with straight/gay, as has been said cis is the Latin antonym to trans so cisgender is the opposite to trans gender, eg being born in the right body genderwise.
> So there are plenty of cis / lgbt ppl, and trans hetero too.
> 
> I like cis as a word, I think there should be a word to go with trans and cis has linguistic roots which make it a good word to use.



Unlike 'mansplaining' and 'womyn'.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68
jumping in on something that's nothing to do with you and throwing round insults like you're hungover in portadown on the morning of the 12th doesn't make you look like a big man but it does suggest you're a big dick


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## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> revol68
> jumping in on something that's nothing to do with you and throwing round insults like you're hungover in portadown on the morning of the 12th doesn't make you look like a big man but it does suggest you're a big dick



Pickman you do your pedant thing constantly, it's boring and it has to do with me because it's a open discussion and you offered nothing to it, deciding instead to deliberately misread someone so you can correct them.

That is being a dick.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Pickman you do your pedant thing constantly, it's boring and it has to do with me because it's a open discussion and you offered nothing to it.


and you're valiantly defending the discussion with your abusive posts. tbh i get accused of pedantry whether or not i am in fact being pedantic. you jumped in like the lard brained turd you are, filled with self-righteous wrath despite yer man agreeing with me and despite my offering examples of cis and trans. you're not some brave defender of the purity of discussion, you're a shit for brains twat with all the acuity of george osborne on a bad day.


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## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

what's genderqueer btw?


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## fractionMan (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what's genderqueer btw?



Someone who like the opposite sex from the sex they identify as.  I think.


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## fractionMan (Feb 7, 2014)

Just read a refreshing blog by an american someone who is a bit sick of being asked to "tell her story" at the expense of actually doing something.  http://chrisbourg.wordpress.com/201...nking-some-post-libtechgender-panel-thoughts/

(she's gender queer btw)

I got there after reading this, which I thought was pretty good: http://chrisbourg.wordpress.com/2014/01/16/the-neoliberal-library-resistance-is-not-futile/


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## ska invita (Feb 7, 2014)

co-op said:


> But anyway these "terms from US academia" -  what were they? As I remember it the "PC-isation" of langauage was primarily about getting rid of words like "nigger" or "poof" or whatever. But 90% of those words were already well understood to be offensive anyway, and were used with that intent (there were subtle ones too - eg "coloured" - that were less clearly defined in terms of intent but became seen as patronising). So it wasn't clever new words from US academia that changed anything it was the increasing unacceptability of expressing racist/sexist/homophobic etc views publically. And then the language that was used to express those views just fell away as a result.


I dont agree with your "just fell away" theory. There are always social factors behind such things, and US academia wasnt the only one, but this was a big deal in the States at the time, lots was written about it, and this influenced social policy, leading to things like compulsory disability training awareness lessons being integrated in workplaces by human resource teams. The language became integrated in work/public systems - it became integrated in structures.

heres a wiki history of the term for what its worth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#History_of_the_term
The US academia era of PC was formulated on campuses in the 80s and broke out into wider debate in the early 90s. That matches my memory of what I read on this in the past.



co-op said:


> So the term is useful - but does it come from academia? Google says that it emerged from black american communities and was then used in a speech by Jesse Jackson in 1988 which was when it first broke into a wider public there.


"black american communities" exist very actively in US academia of course, and I would bet that it came from the afrocentrism that was resurgent in US universities in the 80s


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what's genderqueer btw?


 
It's something of a catch-all for a range of things basically meaning 'not straight + cis', as far as I understand it.


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## Fozzie Bear (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what's genderqueer btw?


 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

It's seems amazingly open ended, covering everything from transgendered people right through I guess to people like me who are male but don't see themselves as being particularly macho. 

But, I'm not going to describe myself as genderqueer because I don't actually care about this stuff enough and I think it would be a barrier to building relationships with people.

Seems like another one of those opt-in things whichi people use to build up cred in the world of intersectional top trumps. So obv LP is genderqueer http://pennyred.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/loneliness-of-trans-positive.html


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## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

In addition to being an umbrella term, _genderqueer_ has been used as an adjective to refer to any people who transgress distinctions of gender, regardless of their self-defined gender identity, i.e. those who "queer" gender, expressing it non-normatively

that could be anyone tbh.


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> In addition to being an umbrella term, _genderqueer_ has been used as an adjective to refer to any people who transgress distinctions of gender, regardless of their self-defined gender identity


That is me, seeing as I have short hair, generally wear breeks and work in a massively male-dominated industry. But I'd never use that word about myself, because it's wanky.


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## Fozzie Bear (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> In addition to being an umbrella term, _genderqueer_ has been used as an adjective to refer to any people who transgress distinctions of gender, regardless of their self-defined gender identity, i.e. those who "queer" gender, expressing it non-normatively
> 
> that could be anyone tbh.


 
Exactly. And I think in some ways that is good, in that it recognises that there are many many ways in which people can realise/feel/identify that gender is not rigid. But in other ways it is the same old tired "us versus the normals" schtick.

And it means that being a woman with short hair who doesn't wear make up (or a man who puts on eyeliner occasionally) is in  the same radical category as transgendered people who have been through turmoil and may face real problems on a daily basis.


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## fractionMan (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> In addition to being an umbrella term, _genderqueer_ has been used as an adjective to refer to any people who transgress distinctions of gender, regardless of their self-defined gender identity, i.e. those who "queer" gender, expressing it non-normatively
> 
> that could be anyone tbh.



fucking hell.


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## fractionMan (Feb 7, 2014)

So if there's cisgender as not-trans what's the opposite of genderqueer?


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## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> That is me, seeing as I have short hair, generally wear breeks and work in a massively male-dominated industry. But I'd never use that word about myself, because it's wanky.



get's you more oppression points though.


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> get's you more oppression points though.



There's the crux of it. I've got enough real oppression points without having to make up some new ones.


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## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> the idea of being born in the wrong body is reactionary crap, a slap in the face to feminism that has fought biological essentialism for hundreds of years.


 
Agree with this, except to say that there are bits of feminism that are very attached to biological essentialism (the crap bits).


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## Fozzie Bear (Feb 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> So if there's cisgender as not-trans what's the opposite of genderqueer?


 
"cisnormativity"


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## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> So if there's cisgender as not-trans what's the opposite of genderqueer?


Straight? TBH I haven't a clue.


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## kebabking (Feb 7, 2014)

does the 'left' have bullshit bingo? 

what would be the average score (am i being some-bollocks-mysonginistic by using the word 'score' with all its PIV/Rape connotations..?) in a Laurie Penny blog?


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## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I like cis as a word, I think there should be a word to go with trans and cis has linguistic roots which make it a good word to use.


 
It's been used that way in biology and chemistry (esp. stereochemistry) for donkeys' years - I think it was just ported across.


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## Fozzie Bear (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> the idea of being born in the wrong body is reactionary crap, a slap in the face to feminism that has fought biological essentialism for hundreds of years.


 
It is a reactionary idea, but that is how some people feel and I think supporting them on an individual basis is important (as well as challenging the idea, more generally).


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah I once had a girlfriend who identified herself as a pansexual polyamourist.

Me: 'Wtf's a pansexual?

Her: 'It means I don't recognise gender with regards to people I'm attracted to. So men, women, transgender, post op etc. I've even made out with a midget before'

Me: 'Since when was midget a sexuality?'

Her: 'It's not...I'm just saying'

Me: 'Oh'

As you can tell, her identifying as that and me being a serial monogamist heterosexual bloke meant our relationship was brilliant and worked out really well....

Not even my lecturer from uni, a pretty well respected and well known researcher of the sexuality of disabled people, knew what pansexual meant. I think Fozzie Bear has it right about these terms being more about 'we're so different and radical compared to the normals' than being of any major use.


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## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah, I'd feel a bit wary of slapping down someone experiencing gender dysphoria with a "reactionary" label.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> i disagree, i think theyre broadly accepted in many key areas (media for example), even if the term PC winds people up, people still act much more PC than they mightve 20 years ago anyway.



You've just shat on your own argument, though, by saying "they're broadly accepted in many key areas".  By definition, if they've not fully penetrated the culture, they can't be "cultural norms".


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah I once had a girlfriend who identified herself as a pansexual polyamourist.
> 
> Me: 'Wtf's a pansexual?
> 
> ...



Pansexual = term invented by Doctor Who scriptwriters to describe Captain Jack Harkness's penchant for having sex with _anything_ vaguely animal, vegetable or mineral.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

"polyamoury" i could think of a number of things to say on that, none of them would pass the intersectional test


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Yeah, I'd feel a bit wary of slapping down someone experiencing gender dysphoria with a "reactionary" label.



not the individual, the argument.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> not the individual, the argument.


What argument? That it exists?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

i would never have a serious relationship with someone who wanted to sleep with other people and for me to be all right with it, does that mean i need to check my privilege?  I think it does doesn't it?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> "polyamoury" i could think of a number of things to say on that, none of them would pass the intersectional test



'polyamoury' - Justification for being a selfish arsehole and doing whatever the fuck you want regardless of who's feelings you trample on...

Not that I'm....errr....bitter or anything


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i would never have a serious relationship with someone who wanted to sleep with other people and for me to be all right with it, does that mean i need to check my privilege?  I think it does doesn't it?


Open relationships are nothing new. I dunno if there are any stats out there on how well they work compared to monogamous relationships, but I know people for whom it's a stable working living arrangement.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Open relationships are nothing new. I dunno if there are any stats out there on how well they work compared to monogamous relationships, but I know people for whom it's a stable working living arrangement.


 
Yeah, fair play, they wouldn't work for me though. And why does another term need to be invented for it?


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i would never have a serious relationship with someone who wanted to sleep with other people and for me to be all right with it, does that mean i need to check my privilege?  I think it does doesn't it?


What you want to do is your preference. Other people will vary, and that's not necessarily a matter of privilege.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah, fair play, they wouldn't work for me though. And why does another term need to be invented for it?


Special snowflake syndrome.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> I dont agree with your "just fell away" theory. There are always social factors behind such things, and US academia wasnt the only one, but this was a big deal in the States at the time, lots was written about it, and this influenced social policy, leading to things like compulsory disability training awareness lessons being integrated in workplaces by human resource teams. The language became integrated in work/public systems - it became integrated in structures.
> 
> heres a wiki history of the term for what its worth:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#History_of_the_term
> ...


The term and the concept came from white middle class lefties who began their_ long march through the institutions_ in the late 70s as then came to power in the early 80s. It didn't come from academia responding to social inequality, It came from a top-down product of social inequality and boring long winded sectarian instrumentality and rhetoric.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i would never have a serious relationship with someone who wanted to sleep with other people and for me to be all right with it, does that mean i need to check my privilege?  I think it does doesn't it?



No it means congratulations you have high self esteem. Thankfully my self esteem has since improved and I wouldn't go anywhere near annyone who identified themselves as such ever again. One lives and learns


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i would never have a serious relationship with someone who wanted to sleep with other people and for me to be all right with it, does that mean i need to check my privilege?  I think it does doesn't it?


 
Only in the sense that everything seems to. Other than that I don't see why tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You've just shat on your own argument, though, by saying "they're broadly accepted in many key areas".  By definition, if they've not fully penetrated the culture, they can't be "cultural norms".


 
i havent had a tea yet so maybe thats why i dont follow what you're getting at. PC terminology has been integrated in key areas, those with influence and power: work, media, government, academia andspread on into general culture. Are there people who hate it? Yes: the big two (not exclusive) groups who hate it are the racists/sexists/phobics etc. who feel their freedom of expression is limited by it, and rightist who view PC as cultural marxism. Whats contradictory with that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> My point here is that US academia does have an influence on the real world. I don't live in the US so its hard for me to comment, but I'm just stating what i understand to be a fact that terms such as African-American, Native-American, Challenged instead of disabled, impaired, person instead of man (chairperson for example), staffed instead of manned, differently-so and so, and so on, originated from US universities. I'm sure there are many others. According to wikipedia one of the first recorded uses of the term CIS was by a student from the University of Minnesota.
> 
> Again, whether all the intersectional privilege theory and so on will have an impact beyond the ivory towers in the future I've no idea. Ive no idea how truly prevalent it is now, or what its like in a US university. I'm just making the point that it is possible for these kinds of things to have an impact in the real world, and that the fact this stuff is happening there doesn't mean it can be dismissed as irrelevant and ineffectual just because it happening _there_.
> 
> As a complete aside, the biggest contemporary example of a US university having an impact on global culture has to go to the Chicago school for its economics department. The fuckers



Just a point of fact - disability terminology in the UK changed because we (disabled people in the UK) agitated for it from the late '70s onward, not because some US academics supplied any impetus, and what was at issue was *descriptiveness*: "challenged" or "impaired" conveys that you have a difficulty, while "disabled" (until we re-defined it to mean that society disables us by not giving us a level playing field) simply conveys "broken", "sabotaged" or "switched off".


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> What argument? That it exists?



that you can be born into the wrong body, rather than the problem being gender typing forcing certain expectations on bodies based on sex.

the reification of gender dysphoria into a medical/biological condition rather than a social issue.

I essentially see it like breast enlargement or other cosmetic surgeries, in that it can be an means for individuals to navigate through or around such issues but there are obvious issues to be faced into how people come to feel so disjointed from their bodies.

Again this in no way justifies attacking trans people as people or the vicious comments of some of the madder end of the rad fem community.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Open relationships are nothing new. I dunno if there are any stats out there on how well they work compared to monogamous relationships, but I know people for whom it's a stable working living arrangement.



Yeah it can work but I think it's quite rare where it works comfortably. It's more often than not one bloke with two women, although it also happens the other way around of course. I just think there's often someone putting up with it rather than actually liking it. These types of relationships are common in different cultures. Western culture on the other hand means we're socialised to be monogamous, breaking out of that's extremely difficult to do, being completely comfortable with breaking out of that is more so, IMO of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> "polyamoury" i could think of a number of things to say on that, none of them would pass the intersectional test


let's test them then


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pansexual = term invented by Doctor Who scriptwriters to describe Captain Jack Harkness's penchant for having sex with _anything_ vaguely animal, vegetable or mineral.


sadly a load of nonsense: from the oed

*pansexual, adj.*
*Pronunciation:*  Brit.  /panˈsɛkʃʊəl/ ,  /panˈsɛkʃ(ᵿ)l/ ,  /panˈsɛksjʊ(ə)l/ , U.S.  /pænˈsɛkʃ(əw)əl/
*Etymology:*  < pan- comb. form + sexual adj. and n. Compare French _pansexuel_ (1914), and earlier pansexualism n. Compare also pansexualist adj.

* 1. Psychol. Of or relating to pansexualism (pansexualism n. 1).*
1926  W. McDougall _Outl. Abnormal Psychol._ xviii. 314  The dogma that the Œdipus complex is present in all men is the principal instrument of the pan~sexual theory.
1939  _Amer. Jrnl. Sociol._ *45* 397  You will find him indignantly denying that his psychology is a pansexual one at all.
1997  _Hispanic Amer. Hist. Rev._ *77* 53  Psychoanalysis..was accused of being a pansexual, ‘metaphysical’ theory of dubious morality, lacking a scientific foundation.

* 2. That encompasses all kinds of sexuality; not limited or inhibited in sexual choice with regards to gender or practice.*
1969  R. Morgan _Let._ 9 July in K. Payne _Between Ourselves_ (1983) 274  K. and I are trying to be humanly unisexual, or pansexual.
1974  _Observer_ 7 Apr. 36/6  Eventually, no doubt, some biographer will tell us how far he [_sc._ H. de Montherlant] was homosexual, heterosexual or—as seems to be suggested by some discreet passages about bestiality and incest—pansexual.
1977  _Guardian Weekly_ 7 Aug. 18/2  An exquisitely Victorian taste for extravagant, pansexual erotic fantasy.
2001  _Maclean's_ 13 Aug. 10/1 (_heading_)   Whether you are omnisexual, pansexual, or just plain old bisexual..here are some of the workshops.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> i havent had a tea yet so maybe thats why i dont follow what you're getting at. PC terminology has been integrated in key areas, those with influence and power: work, media, government, academia andspread on into general culture. Are there people who hate it? Yes: the big two (not exclusive) groups who hate it are the racists/sexists/phobics etc. who feel their freedom of expression is limited by it, and rightist who view PC as cultural marxism. Whats contradictory with that?



A "cultural norm" is a something accepted across a culture - that has been normalised in everyday use by everybody - like saying "pardon me" after belching, or holding a door open for someone.  It's not merely something that's been accepted by *part* of the culture.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> that you can be born into the wrong body, rather than the problem being gender typing forcing certain expectations on bodies based on sex.
> 
> the reification of gender dysphoria into a medical/biological condition rather than a social issue.
> 
> ...


Why can't it be both a biological and a social issue? It's ironic you say this because gender dysphoria was earlier seen as a purely mental disorder, but now the medico-legals are moving towards a more biological stance, in part it seems to me because that makes it easier for people to accept. Not sure who drove that push tho, whether it came from the bottom or the top, so to speak.


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> that you can be born into the wrong body, rather than the problem being gender typing forcing certain expectations on bodies based on sex.
> 
> the reification of gender dysphoria into a medical/biological condition rather than a social issue.
> 
> ...


What's your pronouncement on intersex?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> sadly a load of nonsense: from the oed
> 
> *pansexual, adj.*
> *Pronunciation:*  Brit.  /panˈsɛkʃʊəl/ ,  /panˈsɛkʃ(ᵿ)l/ ,  /panˈsɛksjʊ(ə)l/ , U.S.  /pænˈsɛkʃ(əw)əl/
> ...



There was a smiley on the end of the post for a reason, fuckwit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "cultural norm" is a something accepted across a culture - that has been normalised in everyday use by everybody - like saying "pardon me" after belching, or holding a door open for someone.  It's not merely something that's been accepted by *part* of the culture.


isn't holding a door open for someone found across many cultures, so it isn't a cultural norm as such but something more universal?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> What's your pronouncement on intersex?


when  he replies you'll need to go back and reread after five minutes as he's very keen on the editing this morning.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pansexual = term invented by Doctor Who scriptwriters to describe Captain Jack Harkness's penchant for having sex with _anything_ vaguely animal, vegetable or mineral.


I thought it was the ur-continent from which the landmasses we know today were formed.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "cultural norm" is a something accepted across a culture - that has been normalised in everyday use by everybody - like saying "pardon me" after belching, or holding a door open for someone.  It's not merely something that's been accepted by *part* of the culture.


If it were silent brooding racism would be a cultural norm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> There was a smiley on the end of the post for a reason, fuckwit.


and there was me thinking it was because you were happy, cunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Thing is, yes its true that these ideas will probably spread over time now that they've been imported from the US, but because of the specific nature of the ideas, there's only so far they're really like to spread, not least because as DotCommunist just illustrated, racism and sexism are everywhere. When you "call people out" constantly, you piss far more off than you convince, and eventually you only have each other to call out, which leads to any group or community that follows these ideas to fracture, isolate themselves and write some rather sad blogs. These ideas don't have the potential to develop past a certain level of support in society, anymore than say the Weekly Worker website has the potential to interest anyone who isnt a lefty trainspotter. Look at post-modernist political theorists; they've been largely ignored by society as a whole.



Yeah, but by calling other people out, you get this thing known as a "boost to your ego", and some people trip on the power to do that.


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> when  he replies you'll need to go back and reread after five minutes as he's very keen on the editing this morning.


Will do, ta.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and there was me thinking it was because you were happy, cunt.



Nope, you weren't thinking at all, monkey-dick.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Because language is always co-opted by power. Without change in power relations, change in language is just cosmetic at best.



_Merci, Monsieur Foucault_.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, you weren't thinking at all, monkey-dick.


what i find particularly disappointing is that you can be one of the most interesting posters on urban75 but then you post things like this which even revol68 would not stoop to.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just a point of fact - disability terminology in the UK changed because we (disabled people in the UK) agitated for it from the late '70s onward, not because some US academics supplied any impetus, and what was at issue was *descriptiveness*: "challenged" or "impaired" conveys that you have a difficulty, while "disabled" (until we re-defined it to mean that society disables us by not giving us a level playing field) simply conveys "broken", "sabotaged" or "switched off".


 
fair enough, im sure you are right - im not an expert on PC, im just trying to make a general point that what happens in the ivory towers of academia does have an influence in the real world. The critical idea that power is exercised through language has a history in (leftist) academic theory (going back to Foucault? Further?).

ETA: im also not trying to say all similar social changes orginate from classrooms, but that theory does have a synergetic influence


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I thought it was the ur-continent from which the landmasses we know today were formed.



No, that's _pain au chocolat_.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> What argument? That it exists?


 
The argument that there is such a thing as a male and female 'essence' to a person that exists in a simple dualistic relationship to the male or female status of a body.  You need to accept that argument for ideas about being 'a man in a woman's body' (or vice versa) to have any meaning.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 7, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Look at post-modernist political theorists; they've been largely ignored by society as a whole.



Just wanted to say halle-fucking-lujah to that.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

One angle to consider about the emergence of PC on US university campuses is that in the late 80s and early 90s many of these places had severe problems with violence against minority students. As this is America we're talking about, they were terrified this would open them to lawsuits - hence the new policies.

There's supposed to be a Galileo quote, in Latin, that translates "the facade conforms to the demands of the day, the interior to one's choice". I've not been able to find the original, even after many miles of hard googling.  Pickman's model would you know that quote, maybe?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> What's your pronouncement on intersex?



Pronouncement?

Not following how it directly relates, though I was at a talk by an intersex artist and they were talking about a campaign against forcing intersex people into male or female genders or sex, I did ask them what they thought of the medicalisation of gender dysphoria, they knowingly smiled and just said it was an individuals choice, I think they didn't want to offend anyone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> fair enough, im sure you are right - im not an expert on PC, im just trying to make a general point that what happens in the ivory towers of academia does have an influence in the real world. The critical idea that power is exercised through language has a history in (leftist) academic theory (going back to Foucault? Further?).
> 
> ETA: im also not trying to say all similar social changes orginate from classrooms, but that theory does have a synergetic influence


back to nietzsche if not further


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> The argument that there is such a thing as a male and female 'essence' to a person that exists in a simple dualistic relationship to the male or female status of a body.  You need to accept that argument for ideas about being 'a man in a woman's body' (or vice versa) to have any meaning.


I'm not so sure that gender dysphoria or similar phenomena are conditional on gender essentialism.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> get's you more oppression points though.



Loads of intersectional points without the bother of a sex change op or fucking people you don't actually fancy or even dressing in a way that leads to bigots giving you nasty looks


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just a point of fact - disability terminology in the UK changed because we (disabled people in the UK) agitated for it from the late '70s onward, not because some US academics supplied any impetus, and what was at issue was *descriptiveness*: "challenged" or "impaired" conveys that you have a difficulty, while "disabled" (until we re-defined it to mean that society disables us by not giving us a level playing field) simply conveys "broken", "sabotaged" or "switched off".


I think this is a good example of how language and terminology has altered/been altered by "us" to more appropriately convey/describe - in this case - disability terminology. I don't have a problem with applying that principle to gender/sex terminology. Where I get frustrated is the seeming focus on self identification rather than collective action.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Why can't it be both a biological and a social issue? It's ironic you say this because gender dysphoria was earlier seen as a purely mental disorder, but now the medico-legals are moving towards a more biological stance, in part it seems to me because that makes it easier for people to accept. Not sure who drove that push tho, whether it came from the bottom or the top, so to speak.



A big driving force is medical insurance companies and what they will and won't pay for, hence the push to define it along a biological/medical model, complete with talk of sexed brains being out of step with genital sex.

I can sympathise with the situation they find themselves in but can't accept the argument or the reactionary notions about sex and gender that flow from it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what i find particularly disappointing is that you can be one of the most interesting posters on urban75 but then you post things like this which even revol68 would not stoop to.



Your disappointment is as meaningless to me as a dwyer "proof of G-d's existence" thread is to humanity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> I think this is a good example of how language and terminology has altered/been altered by "us" to more appropriately convey/describe - in this case - disability terminology. I don't have a problem with applying that principle to gender/sex terminology. Where I get frustrated is the seeming focus on self identification rather than collective action.



Tell me about it!!!
That's pretty much why I see the emergence of identity politics as a general political movement as a powerful influence on the undermining of "the left" as a cohesive political force - all that energy turned from resistance to factionalism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> If it were silent brooding racism would be a cultural norm.



You mean that it isn't?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "cultural norm" is a something accepted across a culture - that has been normalised in everyday use by everybody - like saying "pardon me" after belching, or holding a door open for someone.  It's not merely something that's been accepted by *part* of the culture.


but not everyones says pardon me - the extent to which different words have gained primacy is different in different cases - some are much more prevalent than others - some words we still have to look up to find out what they mean...

I think i see what you mean though, these terms arent prevalent enough to be described as norms - perhaps only a few are. I still think the spirit of PC is normalised, even if people aren't comfortable or 'up to date' with the latest vocabulary. I remember a long-time football supporter (white hetro male ) complaining how he felt he couldnt sing his favourite chants any more for fear of offense - not because he'd been told not to, but because he'd internalised the self-policing of it.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I'm not so sure that gender dysphoria or similar phenomena are conditional on gender essentialism.


 
They don't have to be, but they are commonly articulated that way because that is the current accepted position of mainstream culture.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> A big driving force is medical insurance companies and what they will and won't pay for, hence the push to define it along a biological/medical model, complete with talk of sexed brains being out of step with genital sex.


Makes sense I suppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your disappointment is as meaningless to me as a dwyer "proof of G-d's existence" thread is to humanity.


 good for you.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> They don't have to be, but they are commonly articulated that way because that is the current accepted position of mainstream culture.



Yes which is also why Iran carries out more sex changes than any other country on earth.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean that it isn't?


A lot of them have blogs now! Silent no more!


----------



## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Yes which is also why Iran carries out more sex changes than any other country on earth.


 
I didn't know that.


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Tell me about it!!!
> That's pretty much why I see the emergence of identity politics as a general political movement as a powerful influence on the undermining of "the left" as a cohesive political force - all that energy turned from resistance to factionalism.


Yes, I agree (and we've agreed on this before ). I'm doubtful that fighting fire with fire does anything more than get drawn into a spiralling descent of factionalism though, iyswim.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> but not everyones says pardon me - the extent to which different words have gained primacy is different in different cases - some are much more prevalent than others - some words we still have to look up to find out what they mean...
> 
> I think i see what you mean though, these terms arent prevalent enough to be described as norms - perhaps only a few are. I still think the spirit of PC is normalised, even if people aren't comfortable or 'up to date' with the latest vocabulary. I remember a long-time football supporter (white hetro male ) complaining how he felt he couldnt sing his favourite chants any more for fear of offense - not because he'd been told not to, but because he'd internalised the self-policing of it.



Damn Foucault and his "self-governance!


----------



## J Ed (Feb 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> Yes, I agree (and we've agreed on this before ). I'm doubtful that fighting fire with fire does anything more than get drawn into a spiralling descent of factionalism though, iyswim.



So what's the solution? How do you deal with this stuff? Ignore it?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> but not everyones says pardon me - the extent to which different words have gained primacy is different in different cases - some are much more prevalent than others - some words we still have to look up to find out what they mean...
> 
> I think i see what you mean though, these terms arent prevalent enough to be described as norms - perhaps only a few are. I still think the spirit of PC is normalised, even if people aren't comfortable or 'up to date' with the latest vocabulary. I remember a long-time football supporter (white hetro male ) complaining how he felt he couldnt sing his favourite chants any more for fear of offense - not because he'd been told not to, but because he'd internalised the self-policing of it.


That's pretty much an example of non-internalisation.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

Sorry, its more than every country bar Thailand.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Sorry, its more than every country bar Thailand.


 
Thailand is certainly an interesting case.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Btw - they were playing gary glitter every time there was a four in the last 20 over game.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> I didn't know that.


Seen as a cure for being gay AFAIK.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Btw - they were playing gary glitter every time there was a four in the last 20 over game.


Anything under four was Lostprophets?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's pretty much an example of non-internalisation.


i think its an example of self-awareness of an internalisation - slightly different


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> Yes, I agree (and we've agreed on this before ). I'm doubtful that fighting fire with fire does anything more than get drawn into a spiralling descent of factionalism though, iyswim.



The best way out of the impasse is co-operation, but unfortunately to some on the left (who know through "bitter experience") that means co-optation, so limited co-operation is possibly the best we can currently hope for.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> i think its an example of self-awareness of an internalisation - slightly different


That's pure external force. _Every Prussian carries his gendarme in his breast_  - governing their behaviour. They doesn't need officers. That's internalisation. Not refraining from doing something because other people think it's bad.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 7, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Seen as a cure for being gay AFAIK.


 
Yeah, I knew that, just wasn't aware of the numbers.


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The best way out of the impasse is co-operation, but unfortunately to some on the left (who know through "bitter experience") that means co-optation, so limited co-operation is possibly the best we can currently hope for.


I think a start would be to point out that these are essentially reformist politics.


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Btw - they were playing gary glitter every time there was a four in the last 20 over game.





DaveCinzano said:


> Anything under four was Lostprophets?


For a six? Eddie Large doing his Savile impersonation?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Anything under four was Lostprophets?


Ooh!


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

Dunno where this should go. The occupy twitter machine has been commandeered by a 'champagne tranarchist' from google apparently.

http://about.me/jtunney



> Occupy isn't about belief politics. It's about retribution and exit. We pwnd some bankers and built our own sovereign simulacrum of society.





> I want to make it clear that this is not an anti-corporate movement. This is an anti-Wall Street movement.





> How come we don't just break up the U.S. Regime into nation-states and cosmopolitan city-states?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Dunno where this should go. The occupy twitter machine has been commandeered by a 'champagne tranarchist' from google apparently.
> 
> http://about.me/jtunney



Occupy as your résumé, fucking hell.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Where have all the working class snipers gone? Are they in Afghanistan? No vengeful one legged vets at home?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Dunno where this should go. The occupy twitter machine has been commandeered by a 'champagne tranarchist' from google apparently.
> 
> http://about.me/jtunney


proof positive that bse can be transmitted to humans.


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think also, Alvarenga. There's some stuff going on here.


What is this about?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> What is this about?


He set sail as a woman, was rescued a man.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> What is this about?


Dunno - had an inkling of an idea last night but went out and it's gone....


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

I saw something about him being trained in guerilla warfare, but for which side?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> I think a start would be to point out that these are essentially reformist politics.



Yeah, but reformism couched in terms that imply revolutionary potential, at least to those that buy into it.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

I just had this google ad when i checked my email

Cooking a Bacon Sandwich?
Find out why you should Give A Fork About Pork!
www.lovepork.co.uk

google - check your privilege


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 7, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

This has to be a proledemmer gone rogue


----------



## BigTom (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> well from a gender theory perspective I take issue with it as it implies that non trans people don't experience gender as problematic, disjointing and often violent.
> 
> the idea of being born in the wrong body is reactionary crap, a slap in the face to feminism that has fought biological essentialism for hundreds of years.



Fair enough, I was struggling for a way to describe what trans/cis refers to without using those terms, I didn't really know what to say, what would you say when describing what trans means in a largely emotional/physical/biological sense, the kind of description that would apply if being trans was essentially meaningless in a broad social context.

I don't understand why cis as a term means that non trans people don't experience gender as problematic etc though, unless you're using trans in a wider sense than I am, and the word encompasses what I imagine is neccessarily problematic/disjointing and usually if not always violent (I guess you could argue surgery is always violent but I don't think that's what you are saying here and not what I'd consider violence), but then if that's why, any word you use as an antonym to trans will do this too won't it?
(I've replied to this without reading the three further pages that have been posted during today)

edit:


revol68 said:


> that you can be born into the wrong body, rather than the problem being gender typing forcing certain expectations on bodies based on sex.
> 
> *the reification of gender dysphoria into a medical/biological condition rather than a social issue.*
> 
> ...



Just wanted to say that although I'm looking for a way to describe trans/cis in a more biological way, I do see it as a social issue, but with a medical/biological side as well


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I just had this google ad when i checked my email
> 
> Cooking a Bacon Sandwich?
> Find out why you should Give A Fork About Pork!
> ...



Brilliant!


----------



## smokedout (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I essentially see it like breast enlargement or other cosmetic surgeries, in that it can be an means for individuals to navigate through or around such issues but there are obvious issues to be faced into how people come to feel so disjointed from their bodies.



how many five year old ask for nose jobs?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 8, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "cultural norm" is a something accepted across a culture - that has been normalised in everyday use by everybody - like saying "pardon me" after belching, or holding a door open for someone.  It's not merely something that's been accepted by *part* of the culture.



In that case saying Pardon Me isn't a cultural norm either.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 8, 2014)

Saying bollocks _while _belching is though.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 8, 2014)

Spelling out the alphabet while beliching is as well


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 8, 2014)

I've never made it past N. And not through lack of practise either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I've never made it past N. And not through lack of practise either.


hyperventilate before the belch


----------



## DownwardDog (Feb 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I've never made it past N. And not through lack of practise either.



Switch to the Rotokas language from PNG - only 12 letters.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

smokedout said:


> how many five year old ask for nose jobs?



Yes thankfully children are largely protected from those kind of social pressures until their teens but gender typing begins from they are born. 

This common argument that people make in defence of gay or trans people that they are "born this way" to me seems reactionary, an extremely defensive line of argument but one that can be effective precisely because it dovetails with conservative notions of sexuality and gender.

It is something of a slap in the face though to years of feminist and queer struggle against biological determinism.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 8, 2014)

I once managed to belch 'the archbishop of canterbury'


----------



## rekil (Feb 8, 2014)

I belch 'Ohhhh Yeaaah' like in the Yello tune. Pretentious wanker.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 8, 2014)

Impressive.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 8, 2014)

This thread seemed like the most appropriate place to leave this:
Wellesley Students Complain That a Statue of a Man in His Underwear Is “Sexual Assault”







Best comment from the studes:



> Matelli's statue does not speak to the power of art to inspire dialogue but rather to the power of the nearly nude, white, male body to disturb and discomfit. Even unconscious and vulnerable, he is threatening. "Arms outstretched, eyes closed," he lumbers forward, quite literally unable to acknowledge the presence of his (in this context) largely female spectators. What a perfect representation of the world outside of Wellesley, where women and people identifying as women are often subject to a similar ambivalence. "I'm not even conscious that I'm wandering through your lady landscape," the statue says. "I do not have to experience you. I feel about you the same way I feel about the snow. But you have to experience me, and I don't care."
> What does this statue do if not remind us of the fact of male privilege every single time we pass it, every single time we think about it, every single time we are forced to acknowledge its presence. As if we need any more reminders.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 8, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Yes thankfully children are largely protected from those kind of social pressures until their teens but gender typing begins from they are born.
> 
> This common argument that people make in defence of gay or trans people that they are "born this way" to me seems reactionary, an extremely defensive line of argument but one that can be effective precisely because it dovetails with conservative notions of sexuality and gender.
> 
> It is something of a slap in the face though to years of feminist and queer struggle against biological determinism.



strikes me as quite dangerous to take a political theory, that gender is a social construct (which I agree with) and then to say that must mean biological transsexualism, which is essentially an argument about chemistry, can never exist - no matter what the testimony of thousands of people, or what at least some medical research suggests

its an argument that also rests on essentialism incidentally, the assumption that someone born male could never have a medical/biological drive to be female without social factors involved, because they were err born male.  the truth is no-one knows, including you, whether transsexuality has some kind of physical (born) factors behind it, which could be as simple as something to do with body mapping or sexual circuitry and nothing to do with gender essentialism - although you'd expect it to be vastly exacerbated due to a highly gendered society.  political theory should follow the facts, not the other way round, and in this case the facts are not yet known.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 8, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> This thread seemed like the most appropriate place to leave this:
> Wellesley Students Complain That a Statue of a Man in His Underwear Is “Sexual Assault”
> 
> 
> ...




I quite like that statue of the bloke in his underwear, its a lot nicer than other statues I've seen and a lot less objectionable politically than for example 'war heroes' on horseback etc...


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 8, 2014)

Notably, no self-identified rape survivors piped in to say that the statue reminded them of their own experiences, but that didn't hold back the tide of speculation that it might traumatize them


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

smokedout said:


> ...its an argument that also rests on essentialism incidentally, the assumption that someone born male could never have a medical/biological drive to be female without social factors involved, because they were err born male.  the truth is no-one knows, including you, whether transsexuality has some kind of physical (born) factors behind it, which could be as simple as something to do with body mapping or sexual circuitry and nothing to do with gender essentialism - although you'd expect it to be vastly exacerbated due to a highly gendered society.  political theory should follow the facts, not the other way round, and in this case the facts are not yet known.



I for one find it difficult to imagine (though maybe it's the fault of my imagination) how anyone could be literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are.

We are all born as we, as individuals, are. The very fact that we are all defined as either male or female from the moment of our birth is, it seems to me, the very essence of gender essentialism. The idea that everyone can be fitted into the gender binary, and that this fitting in is the most important aspect of our identities is social rather than essential or in-born.

In the interests of helping me, and perhaps others, to understand what you mean, have you got any other examples of cases where you think people are literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> In the interests of helping me, and perhaps others, to understand what you mean, have you got any other examples of cases where you think people are literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are?



otherkin 

there are people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc which its been suggested might be something to do with neurology and body-mapping, but no-one knows.  thats the point really, no-one knows, just like no-one knows whether people are 'born' gay or not, both sides of the argument have their political uses, but it shouldnt really be a political argument imo.


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

smokedout said:


> otherkin
> 
> there are people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc which its been suggested might be something to do with neurology and body-mapping, but no-one knows.  thats the point really, no-one knows, just like no-one knows whether people are 'born' gay or not, both sides of the argument have their political uses, but it shouldnt really be a political argument imo.



Firstly, just because it may be to do with neurology doesn't mean it is therefore inborn. As I understand it, our neurology develops at least in part as a response to our experiences, and is therefore influenced, to an extent which is not yet fully understood, by our socialisation.

Interesting examples you cite. I think most people would take the view that both "otherkin" and people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc are in some way mental ill, and that they would benefit from therapy rather than body modification. 

Do you agree with that conclusion? And do you think that "biological transsexualism" (by which I understand a wish to have one's body modified in some way to more closely resemble a male, if one has been previously categorised as a female, or a female, if one has previously been categorised as a male), comes into a similar category to "otherkin" and people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc?


----------



## emanymton (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> I for one find it difficult to imagine (though maybe it's the fault of my imagination) how anyone could be literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are.
> 
> We are all born as we, as individuals, are. The very fact that we are all defined as either male or female from the moment of our birth is, it seems to me, the very essence of gender essentialism. The idea that everyone can be fitted into the gender binary, and that this fitting in is the most important aspect of our identities is social rather than essential or in-born.
> 
> In the interests of helping me, and perhaps others, to understand what you mean, have you got any other examples of cases where you think people are literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are?


I'm a thin good looking man, trapped in an ugly fat man's body.


----------



## rekil (Feb 8, 2014)

revol68 said:


> the equivalent of teenagers hating it when other people like the same band. I'm the only oppressed in the village.


That reminded me of this stuff.

Following rapidly on from his disgust that the Globe theatre has cast yet another white woman to play Cleopatra who was Greek, twintersectionalist 'mediocre dave' is "just fed up with queers being everyone's pet political cause. So patronising, and to the exclusion of all the other issues"

It's like when Nirvana got big and those who nearly saw them in the camden toilet were calling them sellouts, and going but what about the The Something Somethings?

No #solidarity? Is this a little bit homophobia? A microaggression? Worth a call out? Surely support for the Russian LGBT community should be unconditional and not contingent on skin colour or the level of media coverage their struggle has garnered, and which won't last very long anyway.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> Firstly, just because it may be to do with neurology doesn't mean it is therefore inborn. As I understand it, our neurology develops at least in part as a response to our experiences, and is therefore influenced, to an extent which is not yet fully understood, by our socialisation.
> 
> Interesting examples you cite. I think most people would take the view that both "otherkin" and people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc are in some way mental ill, and that they would benefit from therapy rather than body modification.
> 
> Do you agree with that conclusion? And do you think that "biological transsexualism" (by which I understand a wish to have one's body modified in some way to more closely resemble a male, if one has been previously categorised as a female, or a female, if one has previously been categorised as a male), comes into a similar category to "otherkin" and people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc?



no, otherkin was a joke, the other was an example of what you asked for outside of transsexualism, most people might view people with this bodily dysmorphia (a desire to have a limb removed) as mentally ill, but what most people currently think isnt particularly relevant to science


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

smokedout said:


> no, otherkin was a joke, the other was an example of what you asked for outside of transsexualism, most people might view people with this bodily dysmorphia (a desire to have a limb removed) as mentally ill, but what most people currently think isnt particularly relevant to science



So we're talking about science now? Just now you seemed to be arguing with revol68 not over whether something was scientifically correct but if it was appropriate to use something (the idea that gender is a social theory) you claimed was simply a political idea, to supposedly argue that biological transsexualism, (which you claim is essentially an argument about chemistry, though that claim is just as contentious as your suggestion that gender is simply a social theory) can never exist:



smokedout said:


> strikes me as quite dangerous to take a political theory, that gender is a social construct (which I agree with) and then to say that must mean biological transsexualism, which is essentially an argument about chemistry, can never exist - no matter what the testimony of thousands of people, or what at least some medical research suggests...



Contrary to what you've claimed, it seems to be you who is dealing in essentialism.

I also find your implication that we can talk about what is scientifically correct, as if that were utterly separate from what people (either in general or from the testimony of the thousands you mention) think, or from the wider social and political contexts in which that science is situated, to be a source of confusion in your argument - you're really not making it clear what you're trying to say or on what basis you're arguing it.


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I'm a thin good looking man, trapped in an ugly fat man's body.



Me too mate. The question is, what's the appropriate response 

body modification
psychotherapy
a bit more exercise, a little less cake, and a bit of acceptance...


----------



## cesare (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> I for one find it difficult to imagine (though maybe it's the fault of my imagination) how anyone could be literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are.
> 
> We are all born as we, as individuals, are. The very fact that we are all defined as either male or female from the moment of our birth is, it seems to me, the very essence of gender essentialism. The idea that everyone can be fitted into the gender binary, and that this fitting in is the most important aspect of our identities is social rather than essential or in-born.
> 
> In the interests of helping me, and perhaps others, to understand what you mean, have you got any other examples of cases where you think people are literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are?


We are not all defined as male or female from the moment of our birth and not everyone can be fitted into the gender binary. This isn't the first time it's been pointed out to you either: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-lgbt-terminology.319196/page-3#post-12841595


----------



## smokedout (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> So we're talking about science now? Just now you seemed to be arguing with revol68 not over whether something was scientifically correct but if it was appropriate to use something (the idea that gender is a social theory) you claimed was simply a political idea, to supposedly argue that biological transsexualism, (which you claim is essentially an argument about chemistry, though that claim is just as contentious as your suggestion that gender is simply a social theory) can never exist:



the science is pretty relevant to whether you can claim something is or isn't true at a biological/genetic/other empirically measurable level, and the science is currently inconclusive when it comes to a biological basis for transsexuality although it is starting to look like there might be


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

cesare said:


> We are not all defined as male or female from the moment of our birth and not everyone can be fitted into the gender binary. This isn't the first time it's been pointed out to you either: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-lgbt-terminology.319196/page-3#post-12841595



Perhaps I'm not expressing myself clearly enough. I'm well aware that not everyone can be fitted into the gender binary (and my understanding of exactly how that works was aided by the thread you cite).

I should have said above that an attempt is made to define us as male or female from the time of our birth (and in the vast majority of cases such a definition can be made accurately or unproblematically). The definition has a social rather than a biological imperative.

What I find more interesting personally is not the tiny number of cases where the definition is problematic, important though those are for those directly affected, but the reasons behind the gender binary being seen as being the most important defining part of everyone's identity, and the implications for the vast majority of us who can be so defined, even though we needn't be.


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

smokedout said:


> the science is pretty relevant to whether you can claim something is or isn't true at a biological/genetic/other empirically measurable level, and the science is currently inconclusive when it comes to a biological basis for transsexuality although it is starting to look like there might be



The total of all my experience, both direct and what I've read etc, leads me to the conclusion that everything which we conceptualise, which includes how we relate to the world around us, both physical and social, and how we conceptualise ourselves, is fundamentally social in nature.

Our very conceptualising of ourselves as having an identity including being male or female, or in a small number of cases not fitting into one or other of those positions, is, for me at least, a product of our socialisation rather than something which can ever be reduced simply to biology/chemistry/genetics.


----------



## cesare (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> Perhaps I'm not expressing myself clearly enough. I'm well aware that not everyone can be fitted into the gender binary (and my understanding of exactly how that works was aided by the thread you cite).
> 
> I should have said above that an attempt is made to define us as male or female from the time of our birth (and in the vast majority of cases such a definition can be made accurately or unproblematically). The definition has a social rather than a biological imperative.
> 
> What I find more interesting personally is not the tiny number of cases where the definition is problematic, important though those are for those directly affected, but the reasons behind the gender binary being seen as being the most important defining part of everyone's identity, and the implications for the vast majority of us who can be so defined, even though we needn't be.



The genetic/biological numbers aren't *that* tiny though. In 2000 Anne Fausto-Sterling* conducted a medical review of the frequency of sex variations, producing number estimates based on medical literature between 1955 and 1998 - numbers based on reported sex variations rather than those that go unreported because they're just not known about and - for example - 1 in 1666 births are not XX and not XY; 1 in 1000 births are XXY (Klinefelter); 1 in 100 births differ from "standard" male or female; etc etc. 

We don't know the extent to which gender dysphoria is biological or social or a combination of both, and to perpetuate binary political positions without scientific foundation based on social and/or political perceptions without sufficient scientific understanding seems short sighted and exclusionary to me.

*"How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis" _American Journal of Human Biology _12:151-166.


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

cesare said:


> ...We don't know the extent to which gender dysphoria is biological or social or a combination of both, and to perpetuate binary political positions without scientific foundation based on social and/or political perceptions without sufficient scientific understanding seems short sighted and exclusionary to me...



I am as certain as I need to be that it's a combination of both, personally. smokedout claimed above that it was all reducible to chemistry; I disagreed. We could argue the relative importance of each factor (assuming we can actually seperate or measure them definitively) but I personally am not particularly interested in that.

As I said before, what interests me far more is how the social process of imposing a gender identity on all of us works and what its implications are for all of us. I obviously can't insist that everyone discusses the aspect which interests me.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> I am as certain as I need to be that it's a combination of both, personally. smokedout claimed above that it was all reducible to chemistry; I disagreed. We could argue the relative importance of each factor (assuming we can actually seperate or measure them definitively) but I personally am not particularly interested in that.



err bollocks did I, I said there may be a biological mechanism at work, no-one knows, but that that shouldn't be dismissed (and needn't be dismissed) because of the idea of gender as a social construct


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2014)

smokedout said:


> err bollocks did I, I said there may be a biological mechanism at work, no-one knows, but that that shouldn't be dismissed (and needn't be dismissed) because of the idea of gender as a social construct



Err, bollocks, you *did*. here's the full post with the relevant bit highlighted



smokedout said:


> strikes me as quite dangerous to take a political theory, that gender is a social construct (which I agree with) and then to say that must mean *biological transsexualism, which is essentially an argument about chemistry*, can never exist - no matter what the testimony of thousands of people, or what at least some medical research suggests
> 
> its an argument that also rests on essentialism incidentally, the assumption that someone born male could never have a medical/biological drive to be female without social factors involved, because they were err born male.  the truth is no-one knows, including you, whether transsexuality has some kind of physical (born) factors behind it, which could be as simple as something to do with body mapping or sexual circuitry and nothing to do with gender essentialism - although you'd expect it to be vastly exacerbated due to a highly gendered society.  *political theory should follow the facts, not the other way round, and in this case the facts are not yet known*.



The last bit seems to suggest that no political theory, no matter now provisional, can be put forward until "the facts" are known.

The scientific method is based, among other things, on the idea that "the facts" may never be known, all we can do is arrive at better and better approximations of the "the facts". So at what point do we have your permission to begin to to form political theory?

You also seem to ignore the possibility that the development of scientific knowledge aka "the facts" is in itself a social process influenced to a significant extent by our social and political conceptions.


----------



## cesare (Feb 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> I am as certain as I need to be that it's a combination of both, personally. smokedout claimed above that it was all reducible to chemistry; I disagreed. We could argue the relative importance of each factor (assuming we can actually seperate or measure them definitively) but I personally am not particularly interested in that.
> 
> As I said before, what interests me far more is how the social process of imposing a gender identity on all of us works and what its implications are for all of us. I obviously can't insist that everyone discusses the aspect which interests me.


I don't think smokedout did argue that "it was all reducible to chemistry" - what he seems to be arguing (and he'll correct me if I've misunderstood him) is that we don't know the extent to which gender dysphoria is biological or socially based. And even if we did have that scientific certainty it wouldn't invalidate the dysphoria experienced.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 8, 2014)

precisely, and thats what I thought I said



> the truth is no-one knows, including you, whether transsexuality has some kind of physical (born) factors behind it, which could be as simple as something to do with body mapping or sexual circuitry and nothing to do with gender essentialism - although you'd expect it to be vastly exacerbated due to a highly gendered society.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

If in regards to any other issue but gender dysphoria people put forward speculative biological mechanisms for gender they would get called out as the reactionaries they are. Now part of this double standard is obviously motivated from the best of intentions, to support a massively discriminated against minority but that is based on the assumption that their experience has to be biologically/medically validated in order to be respected.

Why do we speculate that there is some kind of biological mismatch between the persons sex and gender when the obvious reason for such mismatch is the deeply entrenched gender typing in our society that expects certain sexed bodies to behave, think and even feel in certain ways, going so far as to mutilate intersex babies in order for them to categorised into this violent binary.

As for the science, well science isn't some neutral form of knowledge, it is tied up in society and more often reproduces its prejudices, hence studies into men and women's perfomance on tests of emotional intelligence, spatial awareness etc are unnecessarily sexed. The results showed a gradient of results, with women tending to score higher on emotional intelligence whilst men higher on spatial awareness, but it wasn't a one to one correlation. Many women were characterised as male brained and men as female brained. The sexist ideology at work is obvious when you imagine someone defining height in terms of male or female heights based on the spread of height by sex averages, I would be female heighted at 5.6. This is before we point out the obvious fact that men and women are clearly socialised different, so it would be surprising if this didn't show up in such tests.

Also social construction doesn't ignore biology, it is quite possible that people experiencing gender dysphoria are neurologically or biologically different than those who don't, the problem isn't that though but how this body encounters the social construct of gender. For example say there is a "male" neurology why would it be in conflict with female genitalia, after all we know that many women have "male" brains but don't experience it as in conflict with their sex.

Like I said the speculation about such biological mechanisms producing an innate conflict at the level of the body sans socialisation is driven not by reason or science but the ideological pervasiveness of gender, its naturalisation where it disappears into sex, hardly suprising when sex has been the basis for subjugating half the worlds population for centuries. It should also come as no surprise that Iran has some of the highest rates of sex changes as it is a society with rigidly defined gender typing including violent persecution of homosexuality.

None of this denies trans peoples experience of gender dysphoria, anymore than arguing for social understandings of depression denies or cheapens the experience of the depressed. The idea that it does stems from capitalist societies disavowal of the social, instead things are either innate or free choices made by transparent rational individuals, so if something isn't biological or medical they should just "get over it". Likewise arguing for a social approach to depression doesn't mean judging or condemning people for taking medication to make navigating life easier, nor should a social approach to understanding gender dysphoria mean condemning or judging people undergoing hormonal treatment or surgery.


----------



## Combustible (Feb 8, 2014)

revol68 said:


> If in regards to any other issue but gender dysphoria people put forward speculative biological mechanisms for gender they would get called out as the reactionaries they are.



Called out by who? The only people who would denounce anyone who thought there could be some biological differences between the brains of those who identify as male and female are those who have dogmatically decided the answer to what is as far as I know an undetermined biological question. And just because science isn't neutral and can reproduce societal prejudices doesn't mean you can correctly decide the answer to scientific questions based on your dogma. What do you do if reality doesn't conform to how you think it should be and there is a biological mechanism at some level for gender? Do you become a raging sexist because now there is a biological justification for gender roles in society or do you ignore it no matter how convincing because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived world view?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

Combustible said:


> Called out by who? The only people who would denounce anyone who thought there could be some biological differences between the brains of those who identify as male and female are those who have dogmatically decided the answer to what is as far as I know an undetermined biological question. And just because science isn't neutral and can reproduce societal prejudices doesn't mean you can correctly decide the answer to scientific questions based on your dogma. What do you do if reality doesn't conform to how you think it should be and there is a biological mechanism at some level for gender? Do you become a raging sexist because now there is a biological justification for gender roles in society or do you ignore it no matter how convincing because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived world view?



But there is no evidence, on the contrary the studies coming back from neuroscientists are that differences between the sexes are massively exagerrated by socialisation. Even the studies that show differences show they aren't tied to sex in some simple one to one manner, rather they are a spread ike height, hence many men have "female" brains and vice versa. 

I am arguing that the weaselly insistence that there is a biological mechanism causing a conflict at a pretty societal level is ideologically driven, it is based on a deep seated prejudice about sex and gender. 

I likewise reject any innate explanation for the lower scores of African americans in US IQ tests, the explanation instead is tied to social economic factors and the cultural bias of IQ tests. Oddly such rejections of biological explanations doesn't provoke the same "but you can't discount the possibility of it being biological" and the reason is that thankfully racism of this sort is no longer endemic to our society in the way that sexism and gender typing is. 

The money thrown at research to explain differences between men and women behaviour in biological terms is huge, the coverage given to any two bit study and the way the results are amplified or outright distorted to shore up biological essentialism is incredible, see thousands of evo psyche just so stories, from a natural history of rape to an evolutionary account of why girls prefer pink!

This is pure ideology as is weasly argument "that there might be" or it's dogmatic to discount the possibility.


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## Combustible (Feb 8, 2014)

revol68 said:


> But there is no evidence, on the contrary the studies coming back from neuroscientists are that differences between the sexes are massively exagerrated by socialisation. Even the studies that show differences show they aren't tied to sex in some simple one to one manner, rather they are a spread ike height, hence many men have "female" brains and vice versa.
> 
> I am arguing that the weaselly insistence that there is a biological mechanism causing a conflict at a pretty societal level is ideologically driven, it is based on a deep seated prejudice about sex and gender.
> 
> I likewise reject any innate explanation for the lower scores of African americans in US IQ tests, the explanation instead is tied to social economic factors and the cultural bias of IQ tests. Oddly such rejections of biological explanations doesn't provoke the same "but you can't discount the possibility of it being biological" and the reason is that thankfully racism of this sort is no longer endemic to our society in the way that sexism and gender typing is.



The difference is that race is an entirely artificial while there are quite clearly biological differences between the male and female sexes. And whether or not these include differences in the brain (for most people) should not have an effect on how you view transient gender roles in society. Just because some biological differences might extend to the brain doesn't mean you have use these to explain away the differences between men and women. In fact given the massively complex nature of the brain and society, I don't think you could ever meaningful link them. 

But that is not the same as insisting there can not be any differences and therefore it can not be the case that transgendered people biologically have a mismatch between their sex and gender. Do your beliefs about gender really rely on there being no differences at all? And if they do not why keeping insisting something you can not know is true?


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## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

of course my ideas on gender don't rely on there being no differences, fuck me, I'm not saying I'm a man of the world but yes I've noticed quite a few differences.

the point is that these differences don't have to map to gender, which is a series of expectations based on sexed bodies.

I'm not denying there is a mismatch between their sex and gender, it is quite obvious they do, but it is based on the fact the gender they identify with doesn't map on to their sexed body by societal expectations, this is then read as the body not fitting their identity. There can be no biological pre societal mismatch because gender is not biological even if one there is a correlation between sex and certain behaviours on a statistical level. To argue there is a biological disjoint is akin to arguing that short men have biological mismatch with their gender, or women with "male brain"(to use a shitty term) have a biological mismatch.

When people talk about social constructs they aren't denying material reality or biology, they are talking about how things are articulated, categorised and assigned significance.


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## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

and seriously this "something you can not know is true" crap is just irrational bullshit.

there are plenty of things I can't know for certain aren't true, I don't know if there isn't a dragon in the next room but if I was wanting a to explain the smell of smoke coming from it and also happened to know my housemate is a smoker or I'd left the oven on, I think I'd settle on one of them rather than speculating about about a dragon.

like I said the evidence coming back from neuroscientists is weakening the argument for the innate cognitive differences between the sexes.

more to the point though if we define someone as being in the wrong body based on the fact they have attributes commonly or statistically correlated to the other sex, then what you have is a self fufilling prophecy, men behave like this, if you behave like this you are a man. Which is exactly what is going on in Iran.


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## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

Not a fan of radical feminists take on the issue but this is mildly amusing and sums up the problem with bullshit sexed brain theory.


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## SpineyNorman (Feb 8, 2014)

Can we go back to ranting about identity politics please? I understood that


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## revol68 (Feb 8, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Can we go back to ranting about identity politics please? I understood that



hilariously neither do the intersectionalists, they do know that transphobia is bad though and is defined as anything that might piss off some trans people.

btw quite a few trans people reject attempts to define gender dysphoria in the biological/medical manner.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

cesare said:


> We are not all defined as male or female from the moment of our birth and not everyone can be fitted into the gender binary. This isn't the first time it's been pointed out to you either: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-lgbt-terminology.319196/page-3#post-12841595



In this society, generally speaking we all are, and yes intersex people have been forced into this binary, often with surgery involved without their ability to consent.

Other societies have third sexes which is interesting but there is no denying the hegemony of the binary gender model.


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## TruXta (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> In this society, generally speaking we all are, and yes intersex people have been forced into this binary, often with surgery involved without their ability to consent.
> 
> Other societies have third sexes which is interesting but there is no denying the hegemony of the binary gender model.


Well, hardly surprising giving the biological predominance of two sexes/dimorphism in humans.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Well, hardly surprising giving the biological predominance of two sexes/dimorphism in humans.



Please explain why gender should map onto the same binary as the predominant sexual one?


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## TruXta (Feb 9, 2014)

Please explain why it shouldn't. It's hardly as if a predominance of two genders is something recent or particular to our current societal arrangement.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Please explain why it shouldn't. It's hardly as if a predominance of two genders is something recent or particular to our current societal arrangement.



I'm not denying its prevalence, on the contrary, what I'm asking for is an explanation as to how the overwhelming predominance of two sexes translates into two genders, especially as there have been cultures with more than two genders. What I'm saying is that gender is clearly mediated and not simply the societal shadow cast by sex.


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## Balbi (Feb 9, 2014)

Camila Vallejo gets spotted by the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/09/camila-vallejo-caricatures-chile-communist


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> This thread seemed like the most appropriate place to leave this:
> Wellesley Students Complain That a Statue of a Man in His Underwear Is “Sexual Assault”
> 
> 
> ...



So basically we're supposed to accept the interpretation of a student "revolutionary" of what the statue says?
Why would I want to do that?
Don't these eejits have something else to worry about, say like the ever-increasing toll of sexual assaults on US uni campuses?


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## TruXta (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I'm not denying its prevalence, on the contrary, what I'm asking for is an explanation as to how the overwhelming predominance of two sexes translates into two genders, especially as there have been cultures with more than two genders. What I'm saying is that gender is clearly mediated and not simply the societal shadow cast by sex.


Saying gender is mediated is fairly trivial though. It doesn't explain anything either, it's just a description.

Saying that, I have no more than speculations to offer as to why two (and a bit) sexes has been mediated into two (and a bit) genders. I suspect the answers aren't straightforward and are down to several factors, some more social in nature, others with a more material basis. Which isn't half trivial either.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

andysays said:


> I for one find it difficult to imagine (though maybe it's the fault of my imagination) how anyone could be literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are.



Put simply, neuro-biochemistry.  Just because your biology dictates that you have a particular set of genitals, does not mean you inhere all the social and biological consequences of having that set of genitals.



> We are all born as we, as individuals, are. The very fact that we are all defined as either male or female from the moment of our birth is, it seems to me, the very essence of gender essentialism.



Although "gender" does not denote biological sex.
We are born with male or female (or in some cases intersex) biological sexual attributes.  That doesn't make us "male" or "female", it merely means we have have certain biological sexual attributes.



> The idea that everyone can be fitted into the gender binary, and that this fitting in is the most important aspect of our identities is social rather than essential or in-born.



We can trace social acceptance of a "third sex" back at least as far as the 5th century BC in ancient Greece and India, so it's not like the idea that sex *and* gender might extend beyond the binary is a new idea.



> In the interests of helping me, and perhaps others, to understand what you mean, have you got any other examples of cases where you think people are literally born with what you call a "medical/biological drive" to be something other than what they physically or biologically are?



It's as biologically plausible for people to be born with such a drive, as it is for them not to be born with such a drive.  Whether they succumb to a biological imperative is a question that can't really be answered without reference to specific cases - nurture can sometimes  guide nature.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

smokedout said:


> otherkin



I hate elves!!! 



> there are people who have strong desires to have limbs amputated etc which its been suggested might be something to do with neurology and body-mapping, but no-one knows.  thats the point really, no-one knows, just like no-one knows whether people are 'born' gay or not, both sides of the argument have their political uses, but it shouldnt really be a political argument imo.



It's unavoidably a political argument until we actually understand the interplay between biological sex and gender, as well as the social and political consequences of the so-called "life-choices" involved in revealing yourself as "other than that which is normative" a lot better than we currently do.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

andysays said:


> Firstly, just because it may be to do with neurology doesn't mean it is therefore inborn. As I understand it, our neurology develops at least in part as a response to our experiences, and is therefore influenced, to an extent which is not yet fully understood, by our socialisation.



Basic structures are developed in the womb.
What you're talking about is post-natal development of neuronal pathways.
So, some might be said to be "inborn" in a very simplistic way, but yeah, some of "who and what we are" is also down to, again simplistically, socialisation.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I'm a thin good looking man, trapped in an ugly fat man's body.



I'm an ugly fat man, entirely comfortable with being in an ugly fat man's body.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Put simply, neuro-biochemistry.  Just because your biology dictates that you have a particular set of genitals, does not mean you inhere all the social and biological consequences of having that set of genitals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay but how can there be a conflict on the biological level, how would that play out? As a physical pain and does pain mean the body is conflicted, after many women get a great deal of paid from periods, are they born in the wrong body? 

I mean say we accept sexed brains which is the thing that a lot of people grasp at as an innate explanation of gender dysphoria (though surely that would make it sex dysphoria), what we would have is simply that men and women can have brains that don't statistically match up with their sex, so what, why would that entail they have to match up? Such arguments are essentialists through and through. Like deciding that men whose height is more commonly female are in the wrong body and their is a biological conflict.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

andysays said:


> Me too mate. The question is, what's the appropriate response
> 
> body modification
> psychotherapy
> a bit more exercise, a little less cake, and a bit of acceptance...



Although life is rarely as simple as your third point; your first point is meaningless (there's very little "body modification" that'll stop someone being substantively fat, for example); and your second point is a course that is unaffordable by many, and inconceivable by almost as many.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

It's such fucking bullshit and if it wasn't being pushed by sections of the trans community but say bog standard white male sexists it would get short shrift, but because it is a extremely marginalised and victimised section of society there is such an unwillingness to criticise for fear of denying the validity of their experience.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Okay but how can there be a conflict on the biological level...



At a biological level, the entirety of the human body is all about biological conflict, and the struggle of certain parts of our biology to bring about equilibrium, whether we're talking at a cellular level or an endocrinological level.  Our biology is never really "at peace" with itself.



> ...how would that play out? As a physical pain and does pain mean the body is conflicted, after many women get a great deal of paid from periods, are they born in the wrong body?



That's a very poor analogy.  Periods can cause pain because of the physical purgative action necessary.
And sure, biological conflict can obviously manifest as physical pain - as a "cancer" tumour, or as stress to a particular part of our complex governing systems.
Equally obviously, biological conflict can manifest as psychic distress - we can be "depressed" without an attributable physical or emotional cause.



> I mean say we accept sexed brains which is the thing that a lot of people grasp at as an innate explanation of gender dysphoria (though surely that would make it sex dysphoria), what we would have is simply that men and women can have brains that don't statistically match up with their sex, so what, why would that entail they have to match up? Such arguments are essentialists through and through. Like deciding that men whose height is more commonly female are in the wrong body and their is a biological conflict.



The "sexed brain" argument doesn't really hold water as far as I'm concerned - the few slight structural differences don't seem to "map" to the claims made for them, IYSWIM.

IMO we can have a basic biological (neurochemical) conflict between our physical sex and "what we feel ourselves to be".  However, a lot of how our life-story plays out is dependent on how we socially and emotionally develop as individuals, and how that combines with any biological conflict.  We can't say "X plus Y equals Z" because human development has a far more complex set of variables that X, Y and Z.


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## andysays (Feb 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Put simply, neuro-biochemistry.  Just because your biology dictates that you have a particular set of genitals, does not mean you inhere all the social and biological consequences of having that set of genitals.



As I understand it, neuro-biology is dependent, to some as-yet-unknown extent, on socialisation in the broad sense. We're not born as "blank slates", but that doesn't mean the slate doesn't get written on after we're born (agree totally with your second sentence there, so won't attempt to add anything to it).



ViolentPanda said:


> Although "gender" does not denote biological sex.
> We are born with male or female (or in some cases intersex) biological sexual attributes.  That doesn't make us "male" or "female", it merely means we have have certain biological sexual attributes.



Even the concepts of "male" and "female" are human constructs rather than objective catagories. We are each born with individual attributes, which are then developed by socialisation, including/particularly the dominant gender binary idea that we all must be either male or female, and that that distinction is the most important part of our identity.



ViolentPanda said:


> We can trace social acceptance of a "third sex" back at least as far as the 5th century BC in ancient Greece and India, so it's not like the idea that sex *and* gender might extend beyond the binary is a new idea.



No, it's not a new idea, but it is now dominant and has, as far as I can see, been dominant at most times in most cultures. The fact that I recognise it as dominant doesn't mean I also regard it as correct or positive, 



ViolentPanda said:


> It's as biologically plausible for people to be born with such a drive, as it is for them not to be born with such a drive.  Whether they succumb to a biological imperative is a question that can't really be answered without reference to specific cases - nurture can sometimes  guide nature.



Most biological drives, as far as I am aware, serve the evolutionary purposes of prolonging the life of the individual and ensuring the continuity of the species (biological drives are, of course, not confined to the human species). I asked someone who brought this up to provide me with a concrete example rather than a vague notion of an urge to overcome what one is, because it sounds proper confused to me, but since you aren't the one who brought it up, I won't expect you to justify it.

And when we're talking specifically about people, I would argue that nurture/socialisation *always* guides nature. It's like the famous experiment where a baby was brought up without being exposed to language to see what was the "natural" language it would speak. We know how that one ended, right?


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 9, 2014)

this isn't especially new, but i have just discovered it.  here is eve ensler, writer of the vagina monologues....

"
There are no accidents. Or may be everything is an accident. My friend Paul says to me, “It’s like you’ve got Congo Stigmata.” Well, actually, almost everyone said it in one way or another. “It doesn’t surprise me, Eve, of course. All those stories of rape over all these years. The women have entered you.” And at first I pushed this away because it’s not really a great advertising for activism. Come care about others, listen to their stories and their pain, and you can contact it too. Then immediately after the surgery, the doctors told me that they had discovered inside me that they had rarely seen before. Cells of endometrial (uterine) cancer had created a tumor between the vagina and bowel and had “fistulated” the rectum. Essentially, the cancer had done exactly what rape had done to so many thousands of women in the Congo. I ended up having the same surgery as many of them."

http://talkmag.in/cms/columns/book-talk/item/1564-the-congo-stigmata


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## rekil (Feb 9, 2014)

So should PD demand mandatory hermaphroditism for all or not.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> At a biological level, the entirety of the human body is all about biological conflict, and the struggle of certain parts of our biology to bring about equilibrium, whether we're talking at a cellular level or an endocrinological level.  Our biology is never really "at peace" with itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah the what we see ourselves to be bit is where gender dysphoria stems from, the disjoint people feel, the sense that their body is alien, it is a social issue, but that doesn't make it any less real for them. Like I said there is a common tendency to see matters as totally determined or a free choice. Many people who suffer depression feel that attempts to explain it as a social problem rather than as a simple medical one is to deny the reality of depression and make it something you can "snap out of" or whatever. Considering the abuse trans people get it is hardly surprising that many seek the solidity of the biological model for legitimisation, after all it bestows a "realness" denied to social constructs. When you add in the fact medical insurers won't pay for treatments etc that arent strictly medical the appeal of such explanations is totally understandable.


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## TruXta (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> the solidity of the biological model for legitimisation, after all it bestows a "realness" denied to social constructs.



Note that the scales of realness can be reversed too - see the attempts of religious folks to fend off neuro-biologically based explanations for religious thought and behaviour. Social constructs (fucking hate that term btw) can be socially defended as real as much as material bases.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Note that the scales of realness can be reversed too - see the attempts of religious folks to fend off neuro-biologically based explanations for religious thought and behaviour. Social constructs (fucking hate that term btw) can be socially defended as real as much as material bases.



I detest those bullshit explanations of religions though. Oh we found the god molecule, fuck up, religion is a social matter, at best you are onto showing there is a neurological basis for transcendental ideas, hardly ground breaking, would be more shocking if there was wasn't one.


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## smokedout (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Considering the abuse trans people get it is hardly surprising that many seek the solidity of the biological model for legitimisation, after all it bestows a " social constructs. When you add in the fact medical insurers won't pay for treatments etc that arent strictly medical the appeal of such explanations is totally understandable.



Had it ever occurred to you that trans people might be telling the truth about how they experience their bodies and its not all a secret ruse to get free sex changes or politically legitimise transsexualism?


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

smokedout said:


> Had it ever occurred to you that trans people might be telling the truth about how they experience their bodies and its not all a secret ruse to get free sex changes or politically legitimise transsexualism?



No one is saying they are lying about their experience, the issue is what are the causes of this experience.

Are atheists calling religious people liars?

Depressing that you take that from the discussion, so fucking backward.


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

Honestly if that's the level you're coming at this from, cop on.


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## smokedout (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Are atheists calling religious people liars?
> 
> Depressing that you take that from the discussion,



Its telling that you compare transsexuality with religion


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## Nigel Irritable (Feb 9, 2014)

smokedout said:


> Its telling that you compare transsexuality with religion



Are you taking the piss or did you just not follow his argument?


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## smokedout (Feb 9, 2014)

Yes I followed the argument, it was a complete strawman which confused transgenderism as a whole with transsexuality and then added in some complete nonsense about medical funding


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## revol68 (Feb 9, 2014)

Cretin.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Cretin.


nice to see you able to so comprehensively and convincingly deal with smokedout's point.


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## SpackleFrog (Feb 9, 2014)

To be fair, I'm not sure as a society we are particularly close to understanding whether biology or sociology determine transgenderism, or even if its not a combination of the two, so perhaps not a topic either of you can offer a definitive answer on. Unless you think you can of course, in which case go for it.


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## SpackleFrog (Feb 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yeah, but by calling other people out, you get this thing known as a "boost to your ego", and some people trip on the power to do that.



Yeah, some people, but most of them probably only get a kick out of it cos they've genuinely ended up in a place where they believe they're helping.


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## Mr. Jolly (Feb 9, 2014)

Whether its biological or social is erm academic. Whats more important is the material effects of these ideas on individuals and groups, each has been both liberating and coercive.


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## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> nice to see you able to so comprehensively and convincingly deal with smokedout's point.



I'll give her a respectful response when she gives me the respect of actually reading my argument and not ignoring it for some offensive strawman.

In the mean time if you have any criticisms to make of my argument I'd be happy to hear them.


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## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr. Jolly said:


> Whether its biological or social is erm academic. Whats more important is the material effects of these ideas on individuals and groups, each has been both liberating and coercive.



So the truth of something is academic and what matters is the perceived usefulness to particular individuals and groups?

What do you think are the effects of such an approach? I'd suggest they produce a politics of irrational relativism and the reduction of truth to an instrumentalist tool of power, not a good idea when you look at where power lies and who it serves in wider society.

Also the material effect of biological arguments for gender dysphoria is to reinforce essentialist ideas about sex and gender, ideas that have been central in justifying and reproducing sexism. This is the legitimate aspect of some radical feminists issue with aspects of trans politics, unfortunately some have used these legitimate concerns to justify rampant bigotry toward's trans people, for example this,

http://www.autostraddle.com/anti-tr...vatives-to-harass-colorado-trans-teen-201433/


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## Idris2002 (Feb 10, 2014)

Here's one I made earlier. Notes from:

Rathus, Spencer A., Nevid, Jeffrey S., and Fischner-Rathus, Lois, _Human Sexuality in a World of Diversity_, Allyn and Bacon, Boston, London, 2002 (1993)

1967 – one of a pair of male twins lost his penis in a circumcision accident. After undergoing gender reassignment surgery, he was – or so it seemed – “successfully reared as a girl”. The sequel: “at the age of 14, when “she” was informed about the circumcision accident and the process of gender reassignment, she immediately decided to pursue life as a male.”

These authors note another case, however, where an individual, again damaged by circumcision, was gender reassigned, but “in a follow-up at the age of 9, the individual was also tomboyish in behavior and personality traits, but considered herself a girl”. This individual grew to adulthood with the “self concept of being female” and engaged in bisexual activity, until forming a long-term “lesbian” relationship with a woman.

They go on to cite the fascinating consequences of “cloacal exstrophy” a rare medical condition in which individuals are born with “normal testicles, male sex chromosomal structure, and male sex hormones” – but are also born without a penis. In a case of several of these individuals surgically castrated and reared as girls they consistently reported male gender identity, which Marianne J. Legato ascribes to the effects of testosterone.

“How can we sort out the roles of nature and nurture, of biology and the environment?” By turning to cases of pseudohermaphroditism – _perhaps. _Unlike cases of true hermaphroditism, which are extremely rare, the condition of pseudohermaphroditism affects about one individual in every thousand. The individuals “possess the gonads of one gender but external genitalia that are ambiguous or typical of the other gender”. (177)

This comes about, e.g. via androgenital syndrome where a female may have internal female sexual organs, but “masculinized” genitalia. This is due to overexposure to androgen. Then there is androgen-insenstivity syndrome, where males with a mutated gene have lower-than-normal prenatal sensitivity to androgens. “At birth their external genitals are feminized , including a small vagina and their testes are undescended.”

Then there is Dominican Republic Syndrome, named after the country where the first cases were described. This is a form of pseudo-hermaphroditism in which a genetic enzyme disorder prevents testostroene from masculinizing the external genitalia. (177). “Their penises were stunted and resembled clitorises. Their scrotums were incompletely formed and resembled  female labia. They also had partially formed vaginas”.

“The boys with Dominican Republic syndrome also resembled girls at birth and were reared as females. At puberty, however, their testes swung into normal testosterone production, causing startling changes: the testes descended, their voices deepened, their musculature filled out, and their “clitorises” expanded into penises. Of the 18 boys who were reared as girls, 17 shifted to a male gender identity. Sixteen of the 18 assumed a stereotypical masculine gender role. Of the remaining 2, 1 adopted a male gender identity but continued to maintain a feminine gender role, including wearing dresses. The other maintained a female gender identity, and later sought gender-reassignment surgery to “correct” the pubertal masculinization” (178- 179: these authors are citing Money, J., and Ehrhardt, A., _Man and Woman, boy and girl, _1972, Baltimore MD, The Johns Hopkins University Press)

TL; DR: there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I'll give her a respectful response when she gives me the respect of actually reading my argument and not ignoring it for some offensive strawman.
> 
> In the mean time if you have any criticisms to make of my argument I'd be happy to hear them.


calling people cretins doesn't advance your argument


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## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> No one is saying they are lying about their experience, the issue is what are the causes of this experience.
> 
> Are atheists calling religious people liars?
> 
> Depressing that you take that from the discussion, so fucking backward.


this seems to be a 'no, it hadn't occurred to me'.


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## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Here's one I made earlier. Notes from:
> 
> Rathus, Spencer A., Nevid, Jeffrey S., and Fischner-Rathus, Lois, _Human Sexuality in a World of Diversity_, Allyn and Bacon, Boston, London, 2002 (1993)
> 
> ...



None of that negates the social basis for gender dysphoria, rather intersex shows the problem of forcing people into gender binaries, of the expectation that someone should be raised as a boy or a girl based on sexed bodies. Intersex is only "problematic" from a societal perspective, kind of how autism/aspergers is a "condition" because of the social problems people with "non typical neurology" encounter. Infact there is a small but growing movement of intersex people demanding an end to surgery on intersex children to make their bodies fit one sex or the other, that is that their bodies aren't treated as a problem to be solved.


The argument that gender dysphoria is a social matter doesn't deny the fact there is biological basis in many cases, rather it is how this biology interacts with societal factors, so we shouldn't be surprised that women with more typically "male" neurology might be more likely to experience gender dysphoria than those with typically "female" neurology.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2014)

of course there's going to be some biological aspect to this, you are after all dealing with living beings - and biology is...

where do you think biology ends and sociology begins?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> of course there's going to be some biological aspect to this, you are after all dealing with living beings - and biology is...
> 
> where do you think biology ends and sociology begins?



well done you have shown your completely inability to comprehend the argument, have a biscuit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> well done you have shown your completely inability to comprehend the argument, have a biscuit.


i'm in good company then. but run it past me once so you can prove it's not your inability to construct a persuasive case.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Also just to make clear there are trans people who reject the attempts to root trans in biology, in some pre societal mismatch/conflict/disorder in the body.




			
				Sass Rogando Sasot said:
			
		

> “I am not trapped by my body. I am trapped by your beliefs. And I want to reclaim this body from those who want it to breathe and be fed by their dogmas.”


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2014)

there is at least one poster on here who is intersex, and given that about 1 in 100 people are there must be more, would be interesting hearing what they think about the whole gender dysphoria debate

personally if someone wants to have gender assignment surgery, i don't see a problem with it tbh, although there is a good point about why they need to have surgery in the first place ... why society forces this stuff on people ...


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> None of that negates the social basis for gender dysphoria, rather intersex shows the problem of forcing people into gender binaries, of the expectation that someone should be raised as a boy or a girl based on sexed bodies. Intersex is only "problematic" from a societal perspective, kind of how autism/aspergers is a "condition" because of the social problems people with "non typical neurology" encounter. Infact there is a small but growing movement of intersex people demanding an end to surgery on intersex children to make their bodies fit one sex or the other, that is that their bodies aren't treated as a problem to be solved.
> 
> 
> The argument that gender dysphoria is a social matter doesn't deny the fact there is biological basis in many cases, rather it is how this biology interacts with societal factors, so we shouldn't be surprised that women with more typically "male" neurology might be more likely to experience gender dysphoria than those with typically "female" neurology.



there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.



Btw, could you tone down the aggression just a tad? That too - just like gender dysphoria - is a social matter.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Here's the whole speech from Sass Roganda Sasot, well worth a read

http://www.transgenderasia.org/sass-wronged-body.htm



> *I understand that an explanation of our existence by some expert opinion can be our lifeline against the different forms of violence and discrimination wielded against us by those who are disturbed by our existence. There are different scientific and religious theories that have been offered to explain us. I find that all of them seem to revolve around that famous statement that “We were born in the wrong body” or its other form “Trapped in the wrong body”.
> 
> For us transsexual people, this statement has been a convenient explanation to make people understand why we live with a gender that does not match the gender associated with the genitals we were born with. However, the realization that “I am born with the wrong body” and the action one takes in order to “right this wrong body” cannot be divorced from the traditional beliefs about how a female or male body should look like. We live in our bodies and our bodies live in a particular society. The moment we stand naked in front of the mirror, the reflection that we’re seeing is not necessarily being seen by naked eyes for our eyes are adorned by the conditioning of our societies. We were conditioned to consider those who were born with or do have vaginas and breasts as girls and women while those who were born with or do have penises as boys and men.
> 
> ...


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, could you tone down the aggression just a tad? That too - just like gender dysphoria - is a social matter.



I'm just getting peeved at peoples misreadings, I mean I'd appreciate if you could make the argument as to how what you posted counters anything I've been saying?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I'm just getting peeved at peoples misreadings, I mean I'd appreciate if you could make the argument as to how what you posted counters anything I've been saying?



What makes you think it was intended to counter anything you've been saying?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> What makes you think it was intended to counter anything you've been saying?



the more things in heaven comment, maybe I'm being defensive because people have been misreading me (in good and bad faith) but I read it as a reiteration of the argument "you never know it could be a biological pre societal condition", which I argued was really just an attemp to shore up biological essentialist explanations in much the same way religious people revert to "you never know".


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

It's funny how biology supposedly interacts with social matters in revol's picture of things, yet rarely if ever seems to have a real causal stake in anything. Even more ironic considering the supposed material basis of Marxist theory.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr. Jolly said:


> Whether its biological or social is erm academic. Whats more important is the material effects of these ideas on individuals and groups, each has been both liberating and coercive.



Welcome back 'stretched.'


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It's funny how biology supposedly interacts with social matters in revol's picture of things, yet rarely if ever seems to have a real causal stake in anything. Even more ironic considering the supposed material basis of Marxist theory.



You mistake Marx's materialism for the crude kind, which is exactly what he was rejecting.

I also pointing out how biology can have a causal effect on the experience of gender dysphoria, but the it is a causal effect mediated through society. Christ I was even willing to provisionally accept the shaky claims of "sexed" brains to do so.

I can't believe I'm going to recommend someone read Judith Butler but I think you should.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> You mistake Marx's materialism for the crude kind, which is exactly what he was rejecting.
> 
> I also pointing out how biology can have a causal effect on the experience of gender dysphoria, but the it is a causal effect mediated through society. Christ I was even willing to provisionally accept the shaky claims of "sexed" brains to do so.
> 
> I can't believe I'm going to recommend someone read Judith Butler but I think you should.


I bloody knew it


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> You mistake Marx's materialism for the crude kind, which is exactly what he was rejecting.
> 
> I also pointing out how biology can have a causal effect on the experience of gender dysphoria, but the it is a causal effect mediated through society. Christ I was even willing to provisionally accept the shaky claims of "sexed" brains to do so.
> 
> I can't believe I'm going to recommend someone read Judith Butler but I think you should.


I'm not advocating a crude kind of materialism, whatever that means. All I'm saying is that I can't think of a single instance here where you've lent the material basis of gender dysphoria/intersex any kind of causal weight. You keep banging on about it being mediated, but that explains fuck all. It's a descriptive label masquerading as an explanation.

If we're to follow your script where biological sex has more or less nothing to do with social gender typing and expression causally speaking, there's no reason at all for there to be a preponderance of two genders. OTOH if you think that there might just be a causal link between sex and gender, well, it's fairly obvious why we have that correspondence IMO.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> I bloody knew it



That I have a guilty love for Butler, yeah I do, even if she is an awful liberal and her and Michael Douglas seem to be morphing into each other.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I'm not advocating a crude kind of materialism, whatever that means. All I'm saying is that I can't think of a single instance here where you've lent the material basis of gender dysphoria/intersex any kind of causal weight. You keep banging on about it being mediated, but that explains fuck all. It's a descriptive label masquerading as an explanation.
> 
> If we're to follow your script where biological gender has more or less nothing to do with social gender typing and expression causally speaking, there's no reason at all for there to be a preponderance of two genders. OTOH if you think that there might just be a causal link between sex and gender, well, it's fairly obvious why we have that correspondence IMO.



The fact you say "biological gender" speaks volumes.

You really should read some Butler,

http://autof.files.wordpress.com/20...inism-and-the-subversion-of-identity-1990.pdf


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> The fact you say "biological gender" speaks volumes.
> 
> You really should read some Butler,
> 
> http://autof.files.wordpress.com/20...inism-and-the-subversion-of-identity-1990.pdf


It was typo ffs. Should've said "sex". I think you might wanna be quiet about malicious misreadings from here on out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> That I have a guilty love for Butler, yeah I do, even if she is an awful liberal and her and Michael Douglas seem to be morphing into each other.


she looks more like face out of the a team than michael douglas


----------



## Balbi (Feb 10, 2014)

YAY JUDITH 'GENDER TROUBLE IS DESIGNED TO MAKE YOUR EYES WEEP' BUTLER


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It was typo ffs. Should've said "sex". I think you might wanna be quiet about malicious misreadings from here on out.



considering your argument it is far from clear it was a typo.

As for me addressing the articulation of biology in society, well here's what I said earlier,



> The argument that gender dysphoria is a social matter doesn't deny the fact there is biological basis in many cases, rather it is how this biology interacts with societal factors, so we shouldn't be surprised that women with more typically "male" neurology might be more likely to experience gender dysphoria than those with typically "female" neurology.



Ofcourse the idea of "male" and "female" neurology is a social construction, as even proponents of "sexed brain" theory acknowledge it is a spectrum. The fact that people would wish to "sex" such a spectrum is interesting, it is as daft as sexing height, despite the fact the case for height being biologically related to sex is much stronger than "sexed brains", considering the role socialisation has on neurological development, so it shouldn't be that shocking that women tend to score higher on emotional intelligence whilst men tend to score higher on spatial awareness.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

It was clear as day, my post didn't make sense at all the way you (mis)read it. But again, you're reluctantly acceding a place for biology in these matters without ever actually placing it in your explanatory scheme except as some sort of Primordial Cause/First Mover, which is then utterly removed from the causal chain. What role does neurological development play in socialisation? How does biology shape and constrain society? These are questions you can't even begin to ask because of an ideological opposition to them being asked in the first place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> considering your argument it is far from clear it was a typo.
> 
> As for me addressing the articulation of biology in society, well here's what I said earlier,
> 
> ...


so where dors the social begin here? you pooh pooh the notion of sexed neurology then provide an example of apparent sexual difference. why?


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It was clear as day, my post didn't make sense at all the way you (mis)read it. But again, you're reluctantly acceding a place for biology in these matters without ever actually placing it in your explanatory scheme except as some sort of Primordial Cause/First Mover, which is then utterly removed from the causal chain. What role does neurological development play in socialisation? How does biology shape and constrain society? These are questions you can't even begin to ask because of an ideological opposition to them being asked in the first place.


There has to be a place for biology, because it is what it is. But gender is what you do rather than what you are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yeah, some people, but most of them probably only get a kick out of it cos they've genuinely ended up in a place where they believe they're helping.



From previous experience, I think "most" is too kind.  A majority, maybe.  
Problem is, identity politics is pretty much honey to bees looking to feed their egos - it can be a non-critical environment, once you're part of the in-group, unless you're into self-criticism.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Balbi said:


> YAY JUDITH 'GENDER TROUBLE IS DESIGNED TO MAKE YOUR EYES WEEP' BUTLER



It get's a bad rep and she isn't the greatest writer but well worth the read.


TruXta said:


> It was clear as day, my post didn't make sense at all the way you (mis)read it. But again, you're reluctantly acceding a place for biology in these matters without ever actually placing it in your explanatory scheme except as some sort of Primordial Cause/First Mover, which is then utterly removed from the causal chain. What role does neurological development play in socialisation? How does biology shape and constrain society? These are questions you can't even begin to ask because of an ideological opposition to them being asked in the first place.



Join the dots, if I suggest it's not surprising that a woman born with a more typically "male" neurology are more likely to experience gender dysphoria, that would hint towards this neurology having a causative role in their behaviour in such a way that they may feel an affinity to more traditionally masculine roles or interests and reject the feminine gender role imposed on them by society based on their genitalia.

Again though there are so many levels of mediation involved that this is only a rough speculative explanation of how it could have an affect.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> There has to be a place for biology, because it is what it is. But gender is what you do rather than what you are.


Sure, but what you do (socially) is so often partly because of what you are (biologically). To use a different analogy: Imagine an earthquake happening where a town is built. The earthquake itself is a geological phenomenon, but the damage caused is socially constructed in a most literal sense. If you want to mitigate the effects of future disasters you have to take into account both the material side of things (local geology and seismic risk) as well as the built environment writ large (engineering, politics, economics, health etc etc.). In my view gender/sex is the same - whilst gender - the doing - is socially constructed by and for all of us, you can't ignore biology.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Sure, but what you do (socially) is so often partly because of what you are (biologically). To use a different analogy: Imagine an earthquake happening where a town is built. The earthquake itself is a geological phenomenon, but the damage caused is socially constructed in a most literal sense. If you want to mitigate the effects of future disasters you have to take into account both the material side of things (local geology and seismic risk) as well as the built environment writ large (engineering, politics, economics, health etc etc.). In my view gender/sex is the same - whilst gender - the doing - is socially constructed by and for all of us, you can't ignore biology.


No-one is suggesting that biology is ignored. But the argument is that gender is a continuum (you could argue that biology is a continuum too, but let that pass for a moment) and free floating - and it's society that acts as the magnet - in a manner of speaking - to attach gender to biology.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Why am I not surprised that TruXta, always soo quick to jump in with an unwarranted accusation of sexism or misogyny (see Jack Monroe/Laurie Penny threads) is clueless when it comes to actual feminist analysis of gender.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> No-one is suggesting that biology is ignored. But the argument is that gender is a continuum (you could argue that biology is a continuum too, but let that pass for a moment) and free floating - and it's society that acts as the magnet - in a manner of speaking - to attach gender to biology.


I certainly agree that sex as well as gender is, if not a continuum, then at least not binary. I don't agree really that gender is free-floating - it's very much based on the biologically lived fact of sex - genitals, hormones and the rest. If gender was truly floating then why the overwhelming correspondence across history and cultures between two sexes and two genders? With the obvious caveat that many cultures recognise more than two genders/sexes - but even in these the vast majority of people are assigned to one of two archetypal genders, man and woman.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Why am I not surprised that TruXta, always soo quick to jump in with an unwarranted accusation of sexism or misogyny (see Jack Monroe/Laurie Penny threads) is clueless when it comes to actual feminist analysis of gender.


Please stay on topic or fuck off eh.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I certainly agree that sex as well as gender is, if not a continuum, then at least not binary. I don't agree really that gender is free-floating - it's very much based on the biologically lived fact of sex - genitals, hormones and the rest. If gender was truly floating then why the overwhelming correspondence across history and cultures between two sexes and two genders? With the obvious caveat that many cultures recognise more than two genders/sexes - but even in these the vast majority of people are assigned to one of two archetypal genders, man and woman.


One explanation, and it's just one, is that people confuse biological function with gender.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> One explanation, and it's just one, is that people confuse biological function with gender.


I don't follow.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I don't follow.



That biological functionality equals gender performative.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Sure, but what you do (socially) is so often partly because of what you are (biologically).



But here's the kicker - what we do socially, whether partially biologically-determined or not, is mediated (hah!  ) through prior social exposure and experience.  There's no "ideal-type" situation where a human animal can avoid this. "No man is an island, entire of itself..." and all that.



> To use a different analogy: Imagine an earthquake happening where a town is built. The earthquake itself is a geological phenomenon, but the damage caused is socially constructed in a most literal sense. If you want to mitigate the effects of future disasters you have to take into account both the material side of things (local geology and seismic risk) as well as the built environment writ large (engineering, politics, economics, health etc etc.). In my view gender/sex is the same - whilst gender - the doing - is socially constructed by and for all of us, you can't ignore biology.



Your analogy sucks whale dick. Cost/benefit analysis has little to do with social constructionism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I don't follow.



People confusing having a dick with being male, etc.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2014)

Truxta, class divisions are as ubiquitous as the two genders model, are they rooted in biology?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I certainly agree that sex as well as gender is, if not a continuum, then at least not binary. I don't agree really that gender is free-floating - it's very much based on the biologically lived fact of sex - genitals, hormones and the rest. If gender was truly floating then why the overwhelming correspondence across history and cultures between two sexes and two genders? With the obvious caveat that many cultures recognise more than two genders/sexes - but even in these the vast majority of people are assigned to one of two archetypal genders, man and woman.



One explanation for the dominance of a gender binary (at least for the last 2,000 years) is normalisation of Christian religeous belief.  Christian socio-moral normativity calls for a gender binary conforming to biology.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Truxta, class divisions are as ubiquitous as the two genders model, are they rooted in biology?



Only if you're Francis Galton.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Truxta, class divisions are as ubiquitous as the two genders model, are they rooted in biology?


To cut short this line of questioning - yes, but in a much more distant sense. Like many other apes we seem to easily reproduce social hierarchies. There's nothing predetermined about this btw. Ought does not follow from is.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> One explanation for the dominance of a gender binary (at least for the last 2,000 years) is normalisation of Christian religeous belief.  Christian socio-moral normativity calls for a gender binary conforming to biology.


It predates that by many thousands of years. Look at early neolithic art. Not a huge amount of third genders, a whole lot of big dicks and massive tits.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It predates that by many thousands of years. Look at early neolithic art. Not a huge amount of third genders, a whole lot of big dicks and massive tits.


Images of big dicks and massive tits are images of sex not gender.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> Images of big dicks and massive tits are images of sex not gender.


So it's not possible that they are both? If, as many scholars believe, such images had social and performative functions other than illustration (for hunting, magic, religious purposes or whatnot) surely they also represent gender and gendered roles in those societies.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> So it's not possible that they are both? If, as many scholars believe, such images had social and performative functions other than illustration (for hunting, magic, religious purposes or whatnot) surely they also represent gender and gendered roles in those societies.


Of course it's possible, but it's also possible that they're not. We can't know for sure how gender and gender roles mapped onto Neolithic society, we can only guess by using our own society as the frame of reference.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It predates that by many thousands of years. Look at early neolithic art. Not a huge amount of third genders, a whole lot of big dicks and massive tits.



You're confusing sex and gender again!
Fact is that in many mass religions pre-dating Christianity, what we might term "gender confusion" (if we're being stupidly reductive) was an accepted part of life, as were homosexual relations, and as was physical hermaphrodism. The spread of "the word of G-d" placed a restrictive template on how people were able to conceive of themselves, that pretty much mapped sex to gender (as well as implanting other ideas that haven't done us any favours).


----------



## JimW (Feb 10, 2014)

Really don't think you can extrapolate from e.g. penis imagery to gender roles resembling what prevails now - VP's post just reminded me that hermes (IIRC) was often represented by a big old phallic statue in a society with very different attitudes to masculinity.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> we can only guess by using our own society as the frame of reference.


Don't agree at all - isn't a major point of doing history to avoid doing just that?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're confusing sex and gender again!
> Fact is that in many mass religions pre-dating Christianity, what we might term "gender confusion" (if we're being stupidly reductive) was an accepted part of life, as were homosexual relations, and as was physical hermaphrodism. The spread of "the word of G-d" placed a restrictive template on how people were able to conceive of themselves, that pretty much mapped sex to gender (as well as implanting other ideas that haven't done us any favours).


No I'm not, I'm being quite clear that the representation of genitalia and biological markers of sex such as breasts can be both gender- and sex-representations. BTW you can also find many counter-examples to putative "gender-permissive" societies - look at ancient Greek and Egyptian religions, which are fairly heavily (albeit not exclusively) weighted towards fairly recognisable male/female binaries. Again there was a place for gender-bending, hermaphrodites and other sexual and gender variants, but the preponderance of the male/female binary was there long before Christianity.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Truxta, class divisions are as ubiquitous as the two genders model, are they rooted in biology?



I don't really understand the arguments about the relationship between biology (sex?) and gender - I'd need to do a lot of reading on it before I could form an opinion. And I'm equally unfamiliar with the terminology so I apologise if I get any of it wrong. But surely the near universality of class divisions is different in one important way from that of gender, in that all societies have 'male' and 'female' genders (albeit with some also exceptional cases having other identities too) whereas there is a huge variance in terms of the class structure of societies (capitalist = bourgeois, proletarian, petty bourgeois; feudalism = lord, squire, serf, artisan etc; slave societies = masters, slaves etc). 

But as I said, I haven't really understood this discussion so this might be utterly irrelevant.


----------



## rekil (Feb 10, 2014)

Ah shit, I thought that was from today, never mind.


----------



## cesare (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Don't agree at all - isn't a major point of doing history to avoid doing just that?


How can our interpretation of different societies not be grounded in our own frame of reference?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Ah shit, I thought that was from today, never mind.




I'm not sure what I would say if I could say one thing to the left collectively but it wouldn't be about etiquette.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Ah shit, I thought that was from today, never mind.




"guys"


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

cesare said:


> How can our interpretation of different societies not be grounded in our own frame of reference?


Of course you have to start somewhere, but isn't the ideal end-point of social history at least to try to understand a place and time as much as possible from within their own terms? I think of it like learning a new language, you have to use your own language skills to gain a foothold, but as you improve your understanding you start to become immersed in the new language (and in the wider language milieu for want of a better word), you start to think in that new language, you understand the tacit links between words and idioms etc etc.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I'm not sure what I would say if I could say one thing to the left collectively but it wouldn't be about etiquette.



I think if I had to pick one thing to say to the left it would probably be "please, please, please, try not to come across as a total loon when you talk to people". And then I'd probably cry, because it would be a waste of breath.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> From previous experience, I think "most" is too kind.  A majority, maybe.
> Problem is, identity politics is pretty much honey to bees looking to feed their egos - it can be a non-critical environment, once you're part of the in-group, unless you're into self-criticism.



Yes, and I do see that thats a danger, but I also think these groups are fundamentally incapable of dealing with internal disagreement, and thats when shit really hits the fan - the local ISN/RevSoc/whatever student group round our way has just exploded for basically this reason.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yes, and I do see that thats a danger, but I also think these groups are fundamentally incapable of dealing with internal disagreement, and thats when shit really hits the fan - the local ISN/RevSoc/whatever student group round our way has just exploded for basically this reason.



It (the fracture of political/ideological groups) seems to be part and parcel of life whenever dogma is involved.  As you say, there's an inability to deal with internal disagreement, and that sort of constraint on how people are able to express their political thinking means that two things usually happen:
1) A group self-destructs, with the majority swearing off activism, and
2) A new group forms, even more dogmatic and more convinced of the rectitude of the dogma than before.

Of course, if we're *really* lucky (and it doen't happen very often), some of those participants will look inward and actually learn something positive from the experience, but I don't usually hold my breath for that.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yes, and I do see that thats a danger, but I also think these groups are fundamentally incapable of dealing with internal disagreement, and thats when shit really hits the fan - the local ISN/RevSoc/whatever student group round our way has just exploded for basically this reason.



Fall out from raceplaygate?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your analogy sucks whale dick. Cost/benefit analysis has little to do with social constructionism.



Just saw this. I didn't bring up cost-benefit analysis. In fact it's entirely irrelevant. I was talking about mitigating damage, for which you have to at least try to understand both the physical realities on the ground as well as the social/political/cultural/economic histories that lead to particular risk profiles. One is pointless without the other.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Fall out from raceplaygate?



Old news mate. They're calling each other out of houses now I hear


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Just saw this. I didn't bring up cost-benefit analysis. In fact it's entirely irrelevant. I was talking about mitigating damage, for which you have to at least try to understand both the physical realities on the ground as well as the social/political/cultural/economic histories that lead to particular risk profiles. One is pointless without the other.



Your "taking into account both the material side of things...as well as the local built environment" is reducible, in one easy move, to a cost/benefit analysis.  Hence, "your analogy sucks whale dick". 
Next time, rather than going for a pat analogy, why not say what you've just said above?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> No I'm not, I'm being quite clear that the representation of genitalia and biological markers of sex such as breasts can be both gender- and sex-representations. BTW you can also find many counter-examples to putative "gender-permissive" societies - look at ancient Greek...



That would be the ancient Greece, most of whose constituent cultures during various parts of the history of ancient Greece had religious beliefs that featured deities, one of whom was hermaphrodite, several who were homosexual, and one who went for bestiality? 



> ...and Egyptian religions, which are fairly heavily (albeit not exclusively) weighted towards fairly recognisable male/female binaries. Again there was a place for gender-bending, hermaphrodites and other sexual and gender variants, but the preponderance of the male/female binary was there long before Christianity.



And there you show that you've missed my point, which was that Christianity has "locked in" thinking to a binary sex/binary gender way of thinking, and that many religions pre-dating Christianity did not, as well as that Christianity has tainted elements of those religions that were previously accepting of non-binary sex and gender conceptualisations.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your "taking into account both the material side of things...as well as the local built environment" is reducible, in one easy move, to a cost/benefit analysis.  Hence, "your analogy sucks whale dick".
> Next time, rather than going for a pat analogy, why not say what you've just said above?


Way to miss the point. Yes you can reduce that to a cb analysis, but that's irrelevant. You can reduce it to a watercolour too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Way to miss the point. Yes you can reduce that to a cb analysis, but that's irrelevant.



It's hardly irrelevant that your analogy is reducible to that. If I read it as saying that, who else will?  Who else will think "TruXta's analogy suck shit of off of a paving slab"?  What does that say for the credibility of other stuff that you write, especially when we bnoth know that you can do better? 



> You can reduce it to a watercolour too.



Now you're just being silly.  Go to your room! No herring for you tonight!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's hardly irrelevant that your analogy is reducible to that. If I read it as saying that, who else will?  Who else will think "TruXta's analogy suck shit of off of a paving slab"?  What does that say for the credibility of other stuff that you write, especially when we bnoth know that you can do better?


You can reduce pretty much anything to a cb analysis. I'm mystified that you fail to see the point I was making.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 10, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I'll give her a respectful response when she gives me the respect of actually reading my argument and not ignoring it for some offensive strawman.



the straw man you have created is an assumption that transsexual people have surgery to meet gender norms, or because of societal pressure to conform to a standard model of femininity - as you said, for similar reasons someone might have plastic surgery.  Now this may be the case for some of the wide spectrum of trangendered people, some of who like most people in society are gender essentialists, or increasingly commonly have a queer perspective on gender as a chosen performance that can be played with, adopted at will etc

But that is not transsexuality, which is not a perceived mismatch between born sex and gender expectations, but a strongly felt discord about one's own physical sex which usually manifests, often in infancy, as a type of bodily dysmorphia, hatred for genitalia, revulsion to secondary sexual characteristics at puberty such as chest hair etc, a feeling that the neural map of the body is wrong - that the brain and body don't match up, some female to male transsexuals even report feeling of phantom erections etc

I have a freind who's currently transitioning and have met with several of her mates who have previously transitioned and talked about this at length for what its worth.  All said the clothes, the gender expression etc were secondary to the mismatch and discomfort they felt in their own bodies, often from early childhood and which went away after transition ie they felt cured, even if their gender expression in one case was very androgynous - it wasnt about gender to her it was about physical sex.  Despite feeling cured, they may still have a desire to meet gender expectations, like most women, so a slim figure, bigger breasts etc - but this was not a dysmorphia in the sense that it left them feeling suicidal, unable to cope, self-hating, in denial etc - the hormone treatment and surgery had ridded them of transsexuality, but the feeling to conform and be feminine that many/most women feel remained.

Ive never heard anyone transsexual say they have had SRS surgery to meet gender expectations, but you still insist on this being the driving force, which then develops into your argument that a transsexual's need to alter their body is something socially constructed due to a gendered society and can't possibly be for any other reason.  Your entire position is based on misrepresenting transsexuality, deciding for yourself why trans people act as they do and then drawing conclusions from that whilst ignoring not just the medical testimony of thousands of people but also the current neurological research which suggests at least the possibility, and increasingly even the probability of a biological driver for transsexualism.

and it's 'he' by the way, sloppy in the context of this discussion.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 10, 2014)

Oh dear. 

http://owenjonesramblings.tumblr.com/post/76255250252/my-mini-encyclopaedia-of-bile


----------



## TruXta (Feb 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Christianity has "locked in" thinking to a binary sex/binary gender way of thinking, and that many religions pre-dating Christianity did not, as well as that Christianity has tainted elements of those religions that were previously accepting of non-binary sex and gender conceptualisations.



Just picking up on this before bed - surely this is a hangover from Judaism and other local religions. Christianity made it stronger and more widespread, but the basic ideas were already there.


----------



## rekil (Feb 11, 2014)

Quality from Shiv Malik today.



> If young adults aren't willing to protest abt rising housing costs, why shouldn't the other 2/3rds  of the country take advantage of them?





> In fact I was in the very first kettle in Oxford street in 2001...





> I wrote a book. I think I know.





> Take charge of your victimhood.



etc etc

tbf, the twitter intersectionality kru don't have any palpable interest in issues like housing.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 11, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Just picking up on this before bed - surely this is a hangover from Judaism and other local religions. Christianity made it stronger and more widespread, but the basic ideas were already there.


Possibly.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Possibly.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall a lot of third genders, hermaphrodites or even homosexuality in the OT or other Jewish texts BC.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 11, 2014)

Homosexuality is mentioned - one of the things which people in Sodom (or was it Gomorrah?) wanted to get up to with the visitors to Lot's house.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall a lot of third genders, hermaphrodites or even homosexuality in the OT or other Jewish texts BC.


Samaritans.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Homosexuality is mentioned - one of the things which people in Sodom (or was it Gomorrah?) wanted to get up to with the visitors to Lot's house.


The visitors were angels. Perhaps that's the third gender? The interesting thing in that story is lots reaction to the rapists - offering them his daughters.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The visitors were angels. Perhaps that's the third gender?


Angels who had taken the form of men (or were at least dressed as men).


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Angels who had taken the form of men (or were at least dressed as men).


Anglekin


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Berdache or Two-Spirit yet:

*Two-spirit people* (also *two spirit* or *twospirit*) is an umbrella term sometimes used for what was once commonly known as *berdaches* /bərˈdæʃɨz/, indigenous North Americans who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles in First Nations and Native American tribes.

Third gender roles historically embodied by two-spirit people include performing work and wearing clothing associated with both men and women. The presence of male two-spirits "was a fundamental institution among most tribal peoples."[1] According to Will Roscoe, male and female two-spirits have been "documented in over 130 North America tribes, in every region of the continent."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anglekin


The Brethren and Sistren of the Hook and Sinker.

Also, please enlighten me as to why you mentioned the samaritans?


----------



## rekil (Feb 11, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Angels who had taken the form of men (or were at least dressed as men).


Have angels ever been depicted as anything other than blokes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2014)

cherubim


----------



## cesare (Feb 11, 2014)

Interesting article on gender transgression in ancient religion: http://www.willsworld.org/priests.html


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anglekin


not to be confused with 'anglican'


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

TruXta said:


> The Brethren and Sistren of the Hook and Sinker.
> 
> Also, please enlighten me as to why you mentioned the samaritans?


The hebrews hated them for being the same as them but not them. That's why they were hated and despised. Bit tenuous.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The hebrews hated them for being the same as them but not them. That's why they were hated and despised. Bit tenuous.


Ah ok.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not to be confused with 'anglican'


Polite ineffectual middle class atheist angels would be excellent. Angels culturally modeled on dawkins.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> Have angels ever been depicted as anything other than blokes.


They're supposed to be sexless, but OT etc generally gave them male names.  More recent art depicts angels, seraphs, and cherubim etc who look more like androgynous/females than castrated/androgynous/males.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2014)

well modern depictions do go for the fey/legolas/eflfin adrogyny, but you can almost smell the beard and denim coming from Michael


----------



## smokedout (Feb 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> Quality from Shiv Malik today.
> 
> etc etc
> 
> tbf, the twitter intersectionality kru don't have any palpable interest in issues like housing.



so a tweet that basically says get off your arse young people and start protesting about housing or don't expect anyone to give a shit is "victim blaming to the highest degree" according to stavvers

and now its all about shiv and stavvers, and not housing

shiv's pompous responses aside, this stuff is now actively shutting down real stuff


----------



## smokedout (Feb 11, 2014)

_Workers of the World_, Unite. You have nothing to lose but _your chains_!

 victim blaming!!!

sorry, lets talk about Lily Allen


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

Coming back to the gender/sex/religion thingie - I supppose you could see the eunuch/castrato as a figure standing outside the traditional Christian/Abrahamic binary.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 11, 2014)

S☼I said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> http://owenjonesramblings.tumblr.com/post/76255250252/my-mini-encyclopaedia-of-bile


 
Like mildly successful rock bands who record songs about how terrible life on the road is.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

_Sarcasm in a blue checked shirt._


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2014)

TruXta said:


> You can reduce pretty much anything to a cb analysis. I'm mystified that you fail to see the point I was making.



I saw the point you were making, but it was crude, and, to repeat myself yet again, your analogy sucked whale dick.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2014)

I was amused by his response to 'you're only in it for the money' was. 'cos socialism is notoriously well paid etc'

(paraphrasing obvs)


----------



## rekil (Feb 11, 2014)

Number 4 will be especially embarrassing if/when Labour hand him a cushy spad gig or something.

I don't think he's interested in money money money, it's more that proximity to power does funny things to people.

I don't want your money honey, give me regular access to the cabinet and the read the papers slot on Skynews


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I was amused by his response to 'you're only in it for the money' was. 'cos socialism is notoriously well paid etc'
> 
> (paraphrasing obvs)


_I'm dying for your sins and not even getting paid that well. _Horrible stuff.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> Number 4 will be especially embarrassing if/when Labour hand him a cushy spad gig or something.



As will #10 - look, he's even marked out his long term target area.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I saw the point you were making, but it was crude, and, to repeat myself yet again, your analogy sucked whale dick.


Still not sure what c/b analysis has to do with anything.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Just picking up on this before bed - surely this is a hangover from Judaism and other local religions. Christianity made it stronger and more widespread, but the basic ideas were already there.



Hmmm, parts of Judaism pull the "sex and gender are the same thing, and a binary" _schtick_, but it wasn't universalised across every Judaic sect, whereas because of the speedy hegemony of the Catholic church, by about 400AD it had been.  It became doctrine (and dogma) across western Christianity, and couldn't be gainsaid right up until (arguably) the late 19th century.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anglekin



Fuck my old brown boots, but there are some strange people!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck my old brown boots, but there are some strange people!


Werepandas, anyone?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2014)

TruXta said:


> The Brethren and Sistren of the Hook and Sinker.
> 
> Also, please enlighten me as to why you mentioned the samaritans?



Samaritans - Judaism's Presbyterians.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> Number 4 will be especially embarrassing if/when Labour hand him a cushy spad gig or something.
> 
> I don't think he's interested in money money money, it's more that proximity to power does funny things to people.
> 
> I don't want your money honey, give me regular access to the cabinet and the read the papers slot on Skynews




Benn is invoked at some point. past five. 

I did look more in the blog and thought his bit on the mail going after red eds dad was OK if a bit...._man the barricades the press are coming

_
it wasn't a bad rant for all that aspect


----------



## rekil (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> As will #10 - look, he's even marked out his long term target area.


2017 will be good. Apologism for (or limp scolding of) midterm Labour combined with Russian rev anniversary fapping.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2014)

pnt 17 is fair enough also, but people on the internet proclaiming him as the face of the british bolshevik corporation are fish/barrel


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Samaritans - Judaism's Presbyterians.


 
what makes you say that?

they're still around btw!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what makes you say that?
> 
> they're still around btw!!



Small sect, stick to their principles, burn people who walk anti-clockwise around cemeteries.  That sort of stuff.

The third point may be fictitious.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2014)

smokedout said:


> so a tweet that basically says get off your arse young people and start protesting about housing or don't expect anyone to give a shit is "victim blaming to the highest degree" according to stavvers
> 
> and now its all about shiv and stavvers, and not housing
> 
> shiv's pompous responses aside, this stuff is now actively shutting down real stuff


TIME TO STEP UP AND TO STEP BACK
GET POLISHING YOUR PROGRESSIVE STACK


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Small sect, stick to their principles, burn people who walk anti-clockwise around cemeteries.  That sort of stuff.
> 
> The third point may be fictitious.


 
so who's right then originally?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> TIME TO STEP UP AND TO STEP BACK
> GET POLISHING YOUR PROGRESSIVE STACK




their are housing woes, 
in different area codes


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> so who's right then originally?



Neither.  The Devil made them do it.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 11, 2014)

I notice that it was favourited by our friend Sam Ambreen. Interesting to see that solidarity with other _intersectionalistas_ accused of lying about rape has be qualified with denunciations of those feminists because they are white.

This stuff is a sickness.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

_And i'm the shoeshine boy.
_
No, hang on.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> _And i'm the shoeshine boy.
> _
> No, hang on.



There's shit on your shoe, you shitty-shoed bastard.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> There's shit on your shoe, you shitty-shoed bastard.


Never repeated - down the hole. Too close to the truth. I saw fat bob on some cooking program just as we were out the door on sat - looks about 80.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Never repeated - down the hole. Too close to the truth.



refs unpersons. 

oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Never repeated - down the hole. Too close to the truth. I saw fat bob on some cooking program just as we were out the door on sat - looks about 80.


 
Another of Preston's finest.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2014)

As good a place as any:

http://pando.com/2014/02/07/occupy-...-google-wants-to-crowdfund-a-private-militia/

(About the Justine Tunney/Micah White monetising-Occupy thing)


----------



## cesare (Feb 11, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> As good a place as any:
> 
> http://pando.com/2014/02/07/occupy-...-google-wants-to-crowdfund-a-private-militia/
> 
> (About the Justine Tunney/Micah White monetising-Occupy thing)


Monetizing ur anti-capitalism


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

Fucking Shiv Malik though 



Hard hitting journalistic intent and understanding of both politics and activism


----------



## TruXta (Feb 11, 2014)

For real?


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

This is supplementary to his if 1/3 of the population isn't protesting about housing for the young, no wonder the 2/3's exploit them and that people need to own their own oppression or some shit and take action and we need more Rosa Parks moments 

Now, I'm pretty much a Jacques Cousteau level of wet liberal thinker, but he's a proper, proper wanker.

Deleted loads of his tweets and then posted the previously posted tweet


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Fucking Shiv Malik though
> 
> 
> 
> Hard hitting journalistic intent and understanding of both politics and activism



Post #4195 - try and keep up


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Post #4195 - try and keep up



Yes dear, I can see the poorly formatted examples, but his reverse ferret and then sudden publicising on his feed of housing groups he's been in contact with after they all went for him for being a dick, and claiming it was a 'conversation spur'. I know where the spur should go.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I notice that it was favourited by our friend Sam Ambreen. Interesting to see that solidarity with other _intersectionalistas_ accused of lying about rape has be qualified with denunciations of those feminists because they are white.
> 
> This stuff is a sickness.



I conclude that she is a nasty piece of work.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 11, 2014)

Shiv was telling people to "take charge of your victimhood" and 'be prepared to go to prison for protesting'. Claimed he was in the first ever police kettle in 2001. I mean, wow, fucking hell.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Yes dear


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

Jockeying for position on the wrong side of the shithouse seat


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>



 Patronising begat patronising.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Patronising begat patronising.


You'll have to spell it out to me


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 11, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Shiv was telling people to "take charge of your victimhood" and 'be prepared to go to prison for protesting'. Claimed he was in the first ever police kettle in 2001. I mean, wow, fucking hell.



Easy for him to say that when his job is writing about protests on Twitter


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> You'll have to spell it out to me


 
You tell me to keep up  I tell you I am, and expounding.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 11, 2014)

Then again, Shiv did write this on IndyMedia just after 9/11


> The world has gone crazy. 5000 businessmen and military personnel die and suddenly we are at war. With, whom? In what way? With a prime suspect who no one has any proof of guilt and who himself denies responsibility. More people die each day from starvation or bad water as a result of IMF loans yet were are all the three minute silences for them. Over 1.5 million children have died in Iraq as a direct result of the American imposed embargo. Which CNN viewer knows their suffering, much longer and much more painful?
> 
> It is sickening watching countries who poured vitriol on the U.S. in their daily papers for years, suddenly Kowtowing to it’s demands and sending in messages of condolences. It is disgusting watching the press of the supposedly “free and civilised” world printing such obvious propaganda and attempting to rile masses to whatever cause the Whitehouse may choose. Where are those questions like “why did this happen”? Why is the press simply Muslim bashing? Where’s all the reflection that’s supposed to happen at a time like this? Why is no one noticing what’s happening in Palestine?
> Someone needs some sense right now. S.M.



https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2001/09/11599.html?c=on


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Easy for him to say that when his job is writing about protests on Twitter



Yeah, what a hypocrite. Preaching from his pulpit. There are plenty of reasons why some people are unable/won't protest.


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Then again, Shiv did write this on IndyMedia just after 9/11
> 
> 
> https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2001/09/11599.html?c=on



Oh, he's THAT journalist. The calculating bastard who ensure that he swerves a current issue by pointing out loudly that there's this other issue that's as importance that journalists never cover and he's covering it and isn't he so fucking clever for doing so and you should probably listen to him.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 11, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Shiv was telling people to "take charge of your victimhood" and 'be prepared to go to prison for protesting'. Claimed he was in the first ever police kettle in 2001. I mean, wow, fucking hell.


Wow, forget admiring Lucy Parsons, Emily Pankhurst, etc, we should worship at this wankers alter.


----------



## caleb (Feb 11, 2014)

smokedout said:


> so a tweet that basically says get off your arse young people and start protesting about housing or don't expect anyone to give a shit is "victim blaming to the highest degree" according to stavvers
> 
> and now its all about shiv and stavvers, and not housing
> 
> shiv's pompous responses aside, this stuff is now actively shutting down real stuff



Forgetting the lingo ("victim blaming"), I do think Shiv Malik's point was basically shite. In the absence of any real movement, of course young people aren't going to be out on the street getting kettled over housing benefit, which is not to say that they're (or we're) apathetic about it, but rather feel basically powerless and / or at a loss about what to do and how. It's no good a Guardian journalist hectoring over twitter about it. 

How is it 'actively shutting down real stuff'?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 11, 2014)

Of course its a shit point, but it wasn't leapt on for being a shit point it was leapt on because the intersectionalists saw a flaw in the jargon and went on the hunt - as such the conversation became about victim blaming and shiv, not housing or at least thats how it looked earlier today (haven't kept up)

that doesn't matter so much when its a Guardian hack I spose, but I can see how this could extend into other aread where stuff is going on

Also going out on a limb, but Shiv has covered the benefit cuts, workfare, housing  etc and hes been ok, more so than any other journalist - I dont really see him as part of the intersectional crowd so it seemed to me to be an example of how they could start crossing over into things that matter


----------



## weepiper (Feb 11, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Shiv was telling people to "take charge of your victimhood" and 'be prepared to go to prison for protesting'. Claimed he was in the first ever police kettle in 2001. I mean, wow, fucking hell.



Reminds me of Laurie and Owen and their standard defence when questioned about anything: 'yes, but what do _you_ do?_ I_ travel the country, doing activism.'


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 11, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Reminds me of Laurie and Owen and their standard defence when questioned about anything: 'yes, but what do _you_ do?_ I_ travel the country, doing activism.'



So sanctimonious. That response is on the Owen Jones bingo card along with 'chuffed,' 'unscrupulous private landlords,'  'vote Labour' and a few others I'm sure.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 11, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Fucking Shiv Malik though
> 
> 
> 
> Hard hitting journalistic intent and understanding of both politics and activism




fuck me.  I thought twitter was vapid pointless shite but that takes the prize.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 11, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Reminds me of Laurie and Owen and their standard defence when questioned about anything: 'yes, but what do _you_ do?_ I_ travel the country, doing activism.'



I_ actually know_ Tony Benn.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 11, 2014)

In the biblical sense?


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

I've suckled at his tobacco stained pipe


----------



## Balbi (Feb 11, 2014)

Sorry (not sorry)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 12, 2014)

This tickled me:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2014)

cesare said:


> Monetizing ur anti-capitalism



Wasn't that the battle-cry of Laurie Penny's mate Malcolm "definitely not obsessed by the idea of sex with underage girls" Harris?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Shiv was telling people to "take charge of your victimhood" and 'be prepared to go to prison for protesting'. Claimed he was in the first ever police kettle in 2001. I mean, wow, fucking hell.


 
so was i.  how do i monetize this fact?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 12, 2014)

Nominative Determinism will get you every time. I.e. with a name like "Tristram" what else can we expect?

Labour party shadow education minister and Engels biographer Tristram Hunt crossed a picket line of striking university lecturers at Queen Mary University on 10 February to lecture to students on Marx and Engels.

The strikers, members of the UCU union, were taking part in a two-hour "lightning" strike as part of an extended campaign of industrial action against real pay cuts - the government's 1% public sector pay, which is well below the rise in the cost of living.

The Morning Star quoted a striker as saying the shadow minister looked "shamefaced" as he scabbed on crossed their picket line.

Another striking lecturer on twitter, @dd_johnston, commented "Turns out #TristramHunt is actually the guy's name, not rhyming slang".

http://libcom.org/news/tristram-hunt-labour-party-scab-11022014


----------



## TruXta (Feb 12, 2014)

Can we expect Shiv to be a backstabber then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Shiv was telling people to "take charge of your victimhood" and 'be prepared to go to prison for protesting'. Claimed he was in the first ever police kettle in 2001. I mean, wow, fucking hell.


i was in a kettle in trafalgar square in 2000. traditionally considered to be before 2001.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 12, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Can we expect Shiv to be a backstabber then?



POST OF THE DAY


----------



## TruXta (Feb 12, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> POST OF THE DAY


No, don't be silly.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 12, 2014)

TruXta said:


> No, don't be silly.



TruXta in uniform:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 12, 2014)

<--- SHIV . . . . . . . . . WALRUS --->


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i was in a kettle in trafalgar square in 2000. traditionally considered to be before 2001.


Mind your chronological privilege.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 12, 2014)

Good ol' New Statesman

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifesty...nes-day-sells-us-patriarchy-disguised-romance


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Good ol' New Statesman
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/lifesty...nes-day-sells-us-patriarchy-disguised-romance



With the partial exception of the rather narrow class assumptions in the remarks about career success, I don't really see much wrong with that article. It's not particularly significant or bursting with profound new insights, but it's fair enough as far as it goes.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 12, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> With the partial exception of the rather narrow class assumptions in the remarks about career success, I don't really see much wrong with that article. It's not particularly significant or bursting with profound new insights, but it's fair enough as far as it goes.



The self-esteem study is pretty flawed as the majority of the sample is young people:

"Finally, although we collected data from noncollege student samples, the mean age of our participants was fairly young. An interesting future direction would be to look at the effects of partner success or failure on men who are older and who have been married longer. It is possible that the gender difference observed in these studies could be due to a difference between testosterone levels in men and women. As testosterone goes down with age"

So it's not 'all men' but young men.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 12, 2014)

Given that men of older generations are markedly less likely to earn less money than their partners, that distinction doesn't seem terribly significant.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Good ol' New Statesman
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/lifesty...nes-day-sells-us-patriarchy-disguised-romance



Wishy-washy article. Nothing new. When you've got kids, the issue of getting flowers and romance and what that means goes out the window (the important stuff like work/housework//childcare balance comes into play)

re: men, their self esteem and women's achievement - some men don't care.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 12, 2014)

I see that Blairite gobshite Tristram Hunt crossed a picket line to give a talk on Marx. No comment yet from A Very Public Sociologist, the blogger who joined Labour to, ahem, carry out revolutionary work and ended up as a paid bag carrier for Hunt within months. Said blogger has now moved on to new opportunities, so he need have no fear that commenting would endanger his remuneration.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 12, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I see that Blairite gobshite Tristram Hunt crossed a picket line to give a talk on Marx. No comment yet from A Very Public Sociologist, the blogger who joined Labour to, ahem, carry out revolutionary work and ended up as a paid bag carrier for Hunt within months. Said blogger has now moved on to new opportunities, so he need have no fear that commenting would endanger his remuneration.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 12, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I see that Blairite gobshite Tristram Hunt crossed a picket line to give a talk on Marx. No comment yet from A Very Public Sociologist, the blogger who joined Labour to, ahem, carry out revolutionary work and ended up as a paid bag carrier for Hunt within months. Said blogger has now moved on to new opportunities, so he need have no fear that commenting would endanger his remuneration.



Someone mentioned it in a comment on an unrelated post and he replied that Tristram would be eating humble pie very soon. Which doesn't seem to have happened


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 12, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I see that Blairite gobshite Tristram Hunt crossed a picket line to give a talk on Marx. No comment yet from A Very Public Sociologist, the blogger who joined Labour to, ahem, carry out revolutionary work and ended up as a paid bag carrier for Hunt within months. Said blogger has now moved on to new opportunities, so he need have no fear that commenting would endanger his remuneration.


He's very middle of the road these days, makes our OJ look like Che Guevara...


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 12, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> He's very middle of the road these days, makes our OJ look like Che Guevara...



Yes. Jones, whatever his limitations, is on the radical left of the Labour Party. AVPS passed through the radical left of the Labour Party in about five minutes, moving on to cleaning shoes for Hunt and tweeting about Question Time. 

I wouldn't really give a shit about one more ex-socialist nonentity with a minor blog, but every once in a while I'm reminded of his existence when he surfaces to make smug, condescending remarks about the left.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 13, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes. Jones, whatever his limitations, is on the radical left of the Labour Party. AVPS passed through the radical left of the Labour Party in about five minutes, moving on to cleaning shoes for Hunt and tweeting about Question Time.
> 
> I wouldn't really give a shit about one more ex-socialist nonentity with a minor blog, but every once in a while I'm reminded of his existence when he surfaces to make smug, condescending remarks about the left.



I don't think I'd mind him so much if he hadn't acted like such a freak on his way through. I worry he may cause people to believe that blogging about what sex noises you heard at conference is normal in the radical left...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 13, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I don't think I'd mind him so much if he hadn't acted like such a freak on his way through. I worry he may cause people to believe that blogging about what sex noises you heard at conference is normal in the radical left...


Hey organisations split over not much worse, look at the ISN and race play


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 13, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Hey organisations split over not much worse, look at the ISN and race play



No split here  He just left.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 13, 2014)

My mate just resigned from the SP, said that at the last conference someone walked in wearing a shirt saying "eastleigh 52" on it (52 votes for tusc lol) and that the candidate with the lowest votes had to buy the drinks lol


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2014)

as if the lost deposit wasn't enough, the beer bill too?!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My mate just resigned from the SP, said that at the last conference someone walked in wearing a shirt saying "eastleigh 52" on it (52 votes for tusc lol) and that the candidate with the lowest votes had to buy the drinks lol



He didn't get me a bloody drink!


----------



## articul8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Said blogger has now moved on to new opportunities, so he need have no fear that commenting would endanger his remuneration.


 what's he upto now then?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 13, 2014)

For your entertainment and edification, activist pickup lines:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrulla/52-hilarious-activistpickuplines-for-valentines-day

GIVE IN TO YOUR HATE


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> He didn't get me a bloody drink!


he was thinking of your liver perhaps. or maybe he was just cheap.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 13, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> For your entertainment and edification, activist pickup lines:
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrulla/52-hilarious-activistpickuplines-for-valentines-day
> 
> GIVE IN TO YOUR HATE





> I'm a socialist in the streets but an anarchist in the sheets



I'll have that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> For your entertainment and edification, activist pickup lines:
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrulla/52-hilarious-activistpickuplines-for-valentines-day
> 
> GIVE IN TO YOUR HATE




FORGET HER! right now some hair-head has her on her back telling her 'fuck for peace' while han is hunting your young asses in the anshaue valley!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 13, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> FORGET HER! right now some hair-head has her on her back telling her 'fuck for peace' while han is hunting your young asses in the anshaue valley!


www.fuckforforest.com


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 13, 2014)

did you see the film about those idiots?  it was hilarious.



TruXta said:


> www.fuckforforest.com


----------



## TruXta (Feb 13, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> did you see the film about those idiots?  it was hilarious.


No.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 13, 2014)

oh you should.  you really really should.  you'll thank me for the recommendation.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 13, 2014)

i'd find a link to it but i'm at work!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 13, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> oh you should.  you really really should.  you'll thank me for the recommendation.


Hoh-kay.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 13, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> did you see the film about those idiots?  it was hilarious.


 
Is it on youtube?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 13, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> FORGET HER! right now some hair-head has her on her back telling her 'fuck for peace' while han is hunting your young asses in the anshaue valley!



What movie is that from? I can't place it. . .


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> What movie is that from? I can't place it. . .




clearly you weren't there etc. Hamburger Hill. Odd pacing in that.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 13, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> What movie is that from? I can't place it. . .



Hamburger Hill.

And it's the A-Shau Valley.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Hamburger Hill.
> 
> And it's the A-Shau Valley.




think the quote is mangled as well. It's a quality rant tho.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2014)

Saw this on the old Teletyper Of Doom, and thought of FreddyB:





*Sam Webber* 
Guess who appears in credits of the original @*dobbs_michael* 'House of Cards'/ 'the final cut' - but @*Mike_Fabricant*! pic.twitter.com/RvuX9VP3W0




  10:58 PM - 5 Feb 2014


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 13, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> clearly you weren't there etc. Hamburger Hill. Odd pacing in that.



The ref to "han" threw me off. I couldn't tell if they were fighting Charlie or Princess Leia.


----------



## rekil (Feb 13, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> The ref to "han" threw me off. I couldn't tell if they were fighting Charlie or Princess Leia.


Racist.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is it on youtube?


 
dunno, i saw it at the cinema but it was only a small release.  those guys are such idiots.  it might be difficult to find on the internet because i imagine that most of their porn vids are labelled "fuck for forest" but if you can find it it will be worthwhile.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 13, 2014)

"
Laurie Penny turned down Celebrity
Big Brother. Obviously a woman with much
more sense than is initially apparent."

according to popbitch.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 14, 2014)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed  15h
Polyamory problems: picking a Valentine's card which is sweet whilst not coming over as presumptuous to someone's primary partner.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2014)

Primaries need to check their first in line privilege!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 14, 2014)

Is polyamory still an oppression?


----------



## belboid (Feb 14, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Is polyamory still an oppression?


just ask the mormons!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

belboid said:


> just ask the mormons!


yes. there is a difference between POLYAMORY (not traditionally associated with mormons) and POLYGAMY (often associated with mormons)


----------



## rekil (Feb 14, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Is polyamory still an oppression?


It's not registered on the wheel, so no.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

weepiper said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed  15h
> Polyamory problems: picking a Valentine's card which is sweet whilst not coming over as presumptuous to someone's primary partner.


i'd have thought one of the drawbacks to polyamorous relationships would be a great expenditure at this time of the year.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2014)

weepiper said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed  15h
> Polyamory problems: picking a Valentine's card which is sweet whilst not coming over as presumptuous to someone's primary partner.



That is such a "look at me, aren't I liberated?" tweet.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm just imagining what if Laurie Penny had gone into the Big Brother House... 

I think that there are very few people who would be given a dose of something closer to reality than their every day lives through that experience but she might just be a candidate for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I'm just imagining what if Laurie Penny had gone into the Big Brother House...
> 
> I think that there are very few people who would be given a dose of something closer to reality than their every day lives through that experience but she might just be a candidate for that.


you think she should get a dose?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you think she should get a dose?



Don't we all deserve a dose?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Don't we all deserve a dose?


not a dose of lp

few people deserve a dose of lp


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 14, 2014)

laurie penny in the big brother house with various z-list celebs would actually be slightly entertaining


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> laurie penny in the big brother house with various z-list celebs would actually be slightly entertaining


might lead to the first murder in the bb house


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2014)

What about a Big Brother House full of _twittersectionalistas_?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2014)

_Today in the Big Brother House Sam Ambreen and Helen Lewis have mostly been assembling twitter possies against each other while refusing to make eye contact across the living room_


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> laurie penny in the big brother house with various z-list celebs would actually be slightly entertaining



Also, at parties I'd have been able to take vicarious pleasure in her increased fame by saying, 'you know laurie penny, that irritating trendy lefty off big brother? She called me a racist on twitter once'


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 14, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> That is such a "look at me, aren't I liberated?" tweet.


 
 Yes it is - the quest for subcultural capital continues!

I was struck by the 'primary partner' thing though - it would seem polyamory is rather more hierarchically organised than I had imagined. Rather more traditional too if exchanging valentines with 'secondary' and 'tertiary' partners is the done thing - sounds all rather courtly and formal.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 14, 2014)

primary partner, sounds sterile, like something from some horrible sex workshop for pragmatic navigation of polyamory.

I'm with Zizek,



> “Yeah, because I'm extremely romantic here. You know what is my fear? This postmodern, permissive, pragmatic etiquette towards sex. It's horrible. They claim sex is healthy; it's good for the heart, for blood circulation, it relaxes you. They even go into how kissing is also good because it develops the muscles here – this is horrible, my God! It's no longer that absolute passion. I like this idea of sex as part of love, you know: 'I'm ready to sell my mother into slavery just to fuck you for ever.' There is something nice, transcendent, about it. I remain incurably romantic.”


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 14, 2014)

> Facebook have added a new “custom” gender selector, which is live for users in the United States. This is great news for people who, for a variety of reasons, did not want to pick “male” or “female”. My own friends feed erupted in mild excitement, with several of my friends even switching to the US interface just to see the choice.
> 
> Selecting the “custom” option lets you pick from around 50 more pre-defined options, with various combinations of trans*, as well as non-binary options including “agender”, “androgyne”, “bigender”, “gender non-conforming”, “neither”, “neutrois”, and “non-binary”. The choice of which pronouns the site should use to refer to you is also unlocked: this is orthogonal to the gender per se, you get to pick from “he”, “she”, or English’s second-person gender-neutral singular pronoun “they”. You can lock down your specific gender so that only your friends (or subgroups) can see it, but your preferred pronouns are public – presumably for reasons of grammar in messages such as “wish [them] a happy birthday!”



I'm up to date on trans issues but other gender binaries seem new to me. Is there a Tumblr account I can read up on? 
http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tec...s-choice-50-genders-why-cant-we-write-our-own


----------



## rekil (Feb 14, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yes it is - the quest for subcultural capital continues!
> 
> I was struck by the 'primary partner' thing though - it would seem polyamory is rather more hierarchically organised than I had imagined. Rather more traditional too if exchanging valentines with 'secondary' and 'tertiary' partners is the done thing - sounds all rather courtly and formal.


♫ What's the story in polyamory, ♪ wouldn't ye like to know? ♫


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 14, 2014)

He's not part of the "commentariat", but as he's been discussed on this thread already, here's a new piece by Andrew Flood defending intersectionalism against Mark Fisher. Flood is the most prominent Workers Solidarity Movement activist (he probably wouldn't appreciate being called their leader, but...).

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/intersectionality-vampire-castle-reply


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 14, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Also, at parties I'd have been able to take vicarious pleasure in her increased fame by saying, 'you know laurie penny, that irritating trendy lefty off big brother? She called me a racist on twitter once'



Hmmm, not the worst small claim to fame. My weapons of choice are having seen a couple of bands before they were famous and once having met Edward Woodward. That and giving Monbiot a tip or two for his latest piece on Syria and foreign fighters.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 14, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Also, at parties I'd have been able to take vicarious pleasure in her increased fame by saying, 'you know laurie penny, that irritating trendy lefty off big brother? She called me a racist on twitter once'


“...But she was happy to make it clear that she didn't think I was a racist...”


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 15, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Also, at parties I'd have been able to take vicarious pleasure in her increased fame by saying, 'you know laurie penny, that irritating trendy lefty off big brother? She called me a racist on twitter once'



you will be dining out on that story for years


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you will be dining out on that story for years



I've just run a quick post analysis using business analytics and he has mentioned it 1,7023 times on here since it happened - of which 1,486 times were without prompting.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 15, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Hmmm, not the worst small claim to fame. My weapons of choice are having seen a couple of bands before they were famous and once having met Edward Woodward. That and giving Monbiot a tip or two for his latest piece on Syria and foreign fighters.



You're responsible for that terrible article??


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> You're responsible for that terrible article??



He was researching it and asked about laws against joining foreign conflicts. I pointed him in the direction of the 1870 Foreign Enlistment Act and mentioned the one single prosecution under the Act in 1896 (the officer was acquitted).


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 15, 2014)

Rihanna backs right wing Venezuelan protesters. Shakira meanwhile is a Chavista, so we can always hope she'll stab Rihanna with a broken champagne flute in some backstage VIP area.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 15, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> He's not part of the "commentariat", but as he's been discussed on this thread already, here's a new piece by Andrew Flood defending intersectionalism against Mark Fisher. Flood is the most prominent Workers Solidarity Movement activist (he probably wouldn't appreciate being called their leader, but...).
> 
> http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/intersectionality-vampire-castle-reply



opportunist prick


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 15, 2014)

revol68 said:


> opportunist prick


What's with the personal antipathy? I don't agree with his politics, whether he's arguing for anarchism or intersectionalism, but he's always struck me as a nice lad.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 15, 2014)

have we had this yet?  

very important.

http://mcdlr.com/check-your-privilege/


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 15, 2014)

_Fuck off._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> have we had this yet?
> 
> very important.
> 
> http://mcdlr.com/check-your-privilege/


This ought to be some kind of a loyalty card scheme - free lattes at Waitrose in exchange for guilt ticks.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 15, 2014)

woo, that makes it worth being a white man.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 15, 2014)

Each tick saves a child in Africa.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Each tick saves a child in Africa.


i thought ticks gave people lyme's disease.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 15, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought ticks gave people lyme's disease.


They do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2014)

TruXta said:


> They do.


so they're hardly likely to save lives in africa then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Each tick saves a child in Africa.



...but kills a kitten in Heaven.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 15, 2014)

I had my induction training for the nhs the other day. Finally got around to joining the union (unite, can't stand unison), and on the second day, I got my equality and diversity hour training. I was able to put all I have learnt on here to good use and mansplained to the black female nurse at the front of the lecture theatre the correct attitude toward transgender patients and work colleagues.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 16, 2014)

Helen Lewis was on the Sunday Politics arguing that Rachel Reeves should be a future Labour leader because she is 'economically competent'.

Oxford-educated Red Tory. Ugh.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 16, 2014)

Helen Lewis generally is pretty rubbish in her views. Hence why she's perfect editorship material for the NS.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 16, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Helen Lewis generally is pretty rubbish in her views. Hence why she's perfect editorship material for the NS.



I won't ever forget that during the Grangemouth dispute the biggest injustice according to her was Unite picketing the bosses. She is just awful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I won't ever forget that during the Grangemouth dispute the biggest injustice according to her was Unite picketing the bosses. She is just awful.


so she's perfect for the role of spectator editor as well as new statesman editor


----------



## treelover (Feb 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Helen Lewis was on the Sunday Politics arguing that Rachel Reeves should be a future Labour leader because she is 'economically competent'.
> 
> Oxford-educated Red Tory. Ugh.




Lewis or Reeves, or both?

Btw, time was the N/S supported and covered the direct action movement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2014)

treelover said:


> Lewis or Reeves, or both?
> 
> Btw, time was the N/S supported and covered the direct action movement.


time was when and why?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 16, 2014)

treelover said:


> Lewis or Reeves, or both?



Lewis


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 16, 2014)

That Twitter thread is nauseating. 

LOL, I forgot that she backed Jane Austen on the £10 note campaign. Big win. http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2013/07/women-bank-notes-i-was-wrong


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 16, 2014)

Lewis is also responsible for the god awful Vagenda blog on NS and now infesting the Guardian with the same crappy writing.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Lewis




Why is it always wrong? Some elderly people in my village picketed a councillors house over the closure of a daycare centre, clearly they must be manarchist scum


----------



## treelover (Feb 16, 2014)

treelover said:


> Lewis or Reeves, or both?
> 
> Btw, time was the N/S supported and covered the direct action movement.




Around 93-96 when Steve Platt was editor, went on for a fair bit longer when Hargreaves was Editor


----------



## J Ed (Feb 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Why is it always wrong? Some elderly people in my village picketed a councillors house over the closure of a daycare centre, clearly they must be manarchist scum



It's always wrong cos Helen Lewis is a class warrior for the establishment


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 16, 2014)

What does this mean? 

Ppl on asexuality spectrum constantly erased + derided by queer spaces. Poc viewed as more primal= poc asexuality invisible #queeringcolour


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Ppl on asexuality spectrum constantly erased + derided by queer spaces. Poc viewed as more primal= poc asexuality invisible #queeringcolour


it's a longwinded way of saying 'ignore'


----------



## J Ed (Feb 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Ppl on asexuality spectrum constantly erased + derided by queer spaces. Poc viewed as more primal= poc asexuality invisible #queeringcolour



They are saying that LGBT people and groups don't take asexuality into account and that people who aren't white are seen as more sexualised than white people and by extension not recognising that people who aren't white can be asexual is racist. I think...

In other news I overheard someone in a very posh accent talking about 'white privilege' in a train station the other day, first time I've ever heard that stuff mentioned in real life outside of uni.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> In other news I overheard someone in a very posh accent talking about 'white privilege' in a train station the other day, first time I've ever heard that stuff mentioned in real life outside of uni.


 Like some awful moment in a horror film where you realise it wasn't just a dream and the monsters are real.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 16, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Like some awful moment in a horror film where you realise it wasn't just a dream and the monsters are real.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2014)

Pansexuality currently being discussed on Woman's Hour.  Struggling not to roll my eyes at how up themselves the interviewees seem to be.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2014)

FTR pansexuality seems to be being used in the context of "why the obsession with my genitals and who or what I choose to fuck?" .  There was I thinking that the entire thing of treating people as people is part of normal life and yet another sexuality/gender-related label should be superfluous.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Pansexuality currently being discussed on Woman's Hour.  Struggling not to roll my eyes at how up themselves the interviewees seem to be.


Up everyone and everything if they're pansexualists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> FTR pansexuality seems to be being used in the context of "why the obsession with my genitals and who or what I choose to fuck?" .  There was I thinking that the entire thing of treating people as people is part of normal life and yet another sexuality/gender-related label should be superfluous.


but then they wouldn't get off on being on a chatshow


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but then they wouldn't get off on being on a chatshow


WH isn't supposed to be a chatshow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> It's not supposed to be a chatshow.


anything with people talking about pansexuality is a chatshow. some of them are good chatshows and some of them are bad chatshows.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> anything with people talking about pansexuality is a chatshow. some of them are good chatshows and some of them are bad chatshows.


In that case, this was a good chatshow because that section was mercifully brief.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...g-class-elizabeth-truss-school-day-activities

agreed with a lot of it tbh, but the comments ...


----------



## rekil (Feb 17, 2014)

Marcus Brigstocke Twitter Row Is News

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...itll-be-a-damn-shame-9133739.html?jklsdjfskld


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 17, 2014)

"news"


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

must be a slow day. how to go on twitter/facebook and disguise it as work


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

"i'll clarify my actions on twitter"


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

Owen and mehdi doing the post benefits street debate tonight. Rather than the people in the program. Or people on benefits. Or non-party shills.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Owen and mehdi doing the post benefits street debate tonight. Rather than the people in the program. Or people on benefits. Or non-party shills.



How depressing.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> How depressing.


Utterly. Never mind, the two oxbridge educated (one private school/one not) types are there to speak for us. It's always worked in the past.


----------



## lazyhack (Feb 17, 2014)

Except Dee, Tich and Smoggy *are *taking part...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> Except Dee, Tich and Smoggy *are *taking part...


Watch their serious input sidelined. What about dozy btw? But why, the fuck jones and hasan - you're c4 mafia - ask them that why not CAB people or someone like that?


----------



## lazyhack (Feb 17, 2014)

The interesting thing about the debate is ITN already did it, but for Channel  5 - http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/big-benefits-row-live-channel-3108957


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> The interesting thing about the debate is ITN already did it, but for Channel  5 - http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/big-benefits-row-live-channel-3108957


With Owen Jones?


----------



## lazyhack (Feb 17, 2014)

With Katie Hopkins...


----------



## weepiper (Feb 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> With Owen Jones?



He was on it briefly


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> With Katie Hopkins...


...and Owen Jones. Who refused to be a proper panel member but stuck his oar in anyway. The point being who is asked. The ITV mafia look to have as small a contact book as C4s. _Poor people, means left wing, is owen free, he does poor people right?_


----------



## lazyhack (Feb 17, 2014)

Who would you have on?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> Who would you have on?



Will Self, Fry, Clare Balding.

Ian Bone, some normal non-media 'welfare' advocates. I see what you're doing, you're rifling my pockets so you can pass on the names and contacts to build up some more internal C4 cred.


----------



## lazyhack (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't book guests, generally. I just enjoy your 'I can do that' Dee Dee outlook. Really, Bone? Might boost his election campaign...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 17, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> Except Dee, Tich and Smoggy *are *taking part...



What about Dave, Dozy and Mick?


----------



## weepiper (Feb 17, 2014)

In a similar vein, oh my fucking god.



> Famous, Rich and Hungry (2×60′) will see actor Cheryl Fergison, journalist Rachel Johnson, Made in Chelsea’s Jamie Laing and Dragons’ Den star Theo Paphitis experience what life is like for people who cannot afford to eat.



http://www.c21media.net/bbc-focuses-on-food-poverty/


----------



## TruXta (Feb 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> In a similar vein, oh my fucking god.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.c21media.net/bbc-focuses-on-food-poverty/


If all goes well they'll kill and eat each other.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 17, 2014)

Theo Paphitas will be eating longpig by day 2


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> In a similar vein, oh my fucking god.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.c21media.net/bbc-focuses-on-food-poverty/


And of course, Johnson is a key figures in Jones book - contact book thin on the BBC too.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> In a similar vein, oh my fucking god.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.c21media.net/bbc-focuses-on-food-poverty/


 What's next, The Krankies get called in by Atos, Babs Windsor goes skip diving...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

Oh look it's love productions- the same people as benefits street. Making million eh boys and girls. This time directly from the taxpayer.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

This is fascinating for many many reasons.- it's them announcing what's been commissioned from who by who.

Some useful oxbridge mapping here.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

> The Guest List: New Commission
> 
> Fronted by Rob Brydon, The Guess List is a new six x 40 minute Saturday night Comedy Entertainment series where two contestants compete against each other with the help of famous faces from the worlds of sport, music, TV or film.
> 
> Commissioned by Charlotte Moore, Controller, BBC One, Mark Linsey, Controller, Entertainment Commissioning and Alan Tyler Executive Editor, Entertainment Commissioning, the series will be produced by 12 Yard Productions. The Executive Producers are Michael Mannes, Paul McGettigan, Rhys John and Alan Tyler for the BBC.





> Rob Brydon says: “I loved making the pilot for The Guess List and can’t wait to get started on the first series.”
> 
> Charlotte Moore, Controller, BBC One, says: “More Rob on BBC One can only be a good thing. It's a really funny show and an exciting addition to Saturday nights.”
> 
> Andy Culpin, Managing Director of 12 Yard, says: “We are so excited to be working with a talent as big as Rob Brydon on this new Saturday night series. His hilarious interaction with the famous faces and members of the public takes the show to another level.”



Your money.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

Look for 'new commissions': this is a fleshed out one - with Moore to the front again:



> The Secrets: New Commission
> 
> BBC One Controller Charlotte Moore and Controller of BBC Drama Commissioning Ben Stephenson have commissioned Working Title Television to produce The Secrets, a 5 x 30 minute Drama series for BBC One.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

The blurb for the secrets actually says:



> The strand, which will energise creativity and support new talent


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

Alan Davies Après-Ski: New Commission

This is real - alan davis goes to people in the winter olympics, _wan't it cold, you're mental_. Can i have 100 grand now?

Did this happen?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10459224/Joanna-Dennehy-The-call-of-the-underworld.html


----------



## weepiper (Feb 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10459224/Joanna-Dennehy-The-call-of-the-underworld.html





> Those who are born in squalor may never escape it because they do not know or cannot imagine anything different. Some, no doubt, are thrust into squalor by circumstance; but others achieve it as some kind of guarantee or certificate of authenticity. They wear squalor as a badge of honour, a Victoria Cross won against the odds during the battle against respectability.


Christ.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

> But just as Stretch’s height will come to seem less freakish as the average height of each succeeding generation increases, so will the behaviour of Joanna Dennehy seem less exceptional where youthful rebelliousness is the convention, and an anti-bourgeois bohemian attitude to life – such as I once had – is the norm.



 

Yes, Joanna Dennehy's crimes are a result of an 'anti-bourgeois bohemian attitude to life'


----------



## weepiper (Feb 17, 2014)

He's got a cheek talking about squalor. Poisonous sewer that he is.


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Your money.




There is only a few people I don't like on TV, Jonathan Ross, Rob Brydon is another.


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10459224/Joanna-Dennehy-The-call-of-the-underworld.html






> Although he is occasionally accused of being a pessimist and a misanthrope, his defenders praise his persistently conservative philosophy, which they describe as being anti-ideological, sceptical, rational and empiricist. In 2010, Daniel Hannan wrote that Dalrymple's work "takes pessimism about human nature to a new level. Yet its tone is never patronising, shrill or hectoring. Once you get past the initial shock of reading about battered wives, petty crooks and junkies from a non-Left perspective, you find humanity and pathos".[




His Wikipedia is not exactly balanced, time for a challenge?


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

> I can’t say that I have myself been completely immune from these shallow and romantic ideas. I remember thinking, as a young man, such absurd thoughts as that baldness in men was a physical sign or consequence of having compromised in cowardly fashion with the demands of the world for the sake of peace, quiet and comfort. One’s hair fell out as a result: it was the sign of a guilty, or at least unquiet, conscience. Now that I have gone bald myself, I know different.



Bizzarro!


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

> While youth would once have had its day and then grown up, we live at a time of unprecedented nostalgia for youth and its narcissistic rebelliousness. As the population ages, so youth becomes ever more desirable. Perhaps the most visible symbol of this is the rather pathetic refusal of former rock stars to admit that they are no longer 18, and to dress or comport themselves differently from how they did then. Another sign was Tony Blair’s callow commitment to youthfulness as the touchstone of virtue and wisdom. We are about to enter the first age of the adolescent geriatric, or the geriatric adolescent.



I think he is right here, anyone for a round of Call Of Duty?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> Bizzarro!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2014)

He allowed my mate to get beaten to fuck by screws in Winchester. Lovely fluffy conservative.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2014)

What's his real name? That can't be it surely?


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

Is he a relly of the other Dalrymple?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 17, 2014)

No, it's just a pseudonym.


----------



## Balbi (Feb 17, 2014)

Good, I quite like William Dalrymple. This bloke reads like Quilliam Dalrymple.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 17, 2014)

i saw this and thought it needed to go somewhere on urban.  so i'm putting it here....


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

Rebecca Lush is still speaking out, bit more genteel these days but still there.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 17, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i saw this and thought it needed to go somewhere on urban.  so i'm putting it here....
> 
> View attachment 48672


Interesting - especially as the reporter's name rang a bell - she was the _Mirror_'s Special Projects Editor to whom Steven Nott revealed ihs concerns about the ‘default code’ voicemail hack in the late 90s, as well as the sister-in-law of Sean Hoare, the now-dead _Sun_/_NOTW _journo.

A marvel of juxtaposition and not much else, that article!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 18, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Christ.



I'd forgotten what a poisonous turd Dalrymple is.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd forgotten what a poisonous turd Dalrymple is.


 
Is that actually his name? It can't be can it?


----------



## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is that actually his name? It can't be can it?


Again, it's a pseudonym. Real name is Anthony Daniels.


----------



## belboid (Feb 18, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Again, it's a pseudonym. Real name is Anthony Daniels.


C3PO??!!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

belboid said:


> C3PO??!!


By Gove, you're right!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 19, 2014)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>



She needs to check her phobic surname privilege!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 20, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>


 
she's got me


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> she's got me


bang to rights


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 20, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> bang to rights


 
is it ok to be turned on by that post?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> is it ok to be turned on by that post?


yes as long as you 'like' it.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 20, 2014)

*likes*

i feel dirty now.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>


 
Is that real?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is that real?


yes. of course it's real


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is that real?


What a peculiar question. Is what real? Is that hand-drawn pie chart real? Is the “women's website” on which it featured real? Or is there real research underpinning the 30% boner stat?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> What a peculiar question. Is what real? Is that hand-drawn pie chart real? Is the “women's website” on which it featured real? Or is there real research underpinning the 30% boner stat?


 
I meant was it meant seriously or were they taking the piss out of what people who think up those pie charts are like?


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 20, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. of course it's real


Everything's real


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Everything's real



Except fiction.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Except fiction.



that's real too.  it's real fiction.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 21, 2014)

True lies.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 21, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's real too.  it's real fiction.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 21, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


>


also real


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd forgotten what a poisonous turd Dalrymple is.



Aye.  He can't even see the contradiction here:

"I remember thinking, as a young man, such absurd thoughts as that baldness in men was a physical sign or consequence of having compromised in cowardly fashion with the demands of the world for the sake of peace, quiet and comfort. One’s hair fell out as a result: it was the sign of a guilty, or at least unquiet, conscience. Now that I have gone bald myself, I know different."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10459224/Joanna-Dennehy-The-call-of-the-underworld.html


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 21, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Aye.  He can't even see the contradiction here:
> 
> "I remember thinking, as a young man, such absurd thoughts as that baldness in men was a physical sign or consequence of having compromised in cowardly fashion with the demands of the world for the sake of peace, quiet and comfort. One’s hair fell out as a result: it was the sign of a guilty, or at least unquiet, conscience. Now that I have gone bald myself, I know different."
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10459224/Joanna-Dennehy-The-call-of-the-underworld.html




He's never been one for self-reflection.  I picked up a book of his for 50p once (called "If Symptoms Persist", a collection of his _Spectator_ columns), read it and binned it.  It was obvious that the author was "...a psychopath of the first water!".


----------



## TruXta (Feb 21, 2014)

Imagine having that dick as your psychiatrist - "ffs just get over it"....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 21, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Imagine having that dick as your psychiatrist - "ffs just get over it"....



You'd be wanting to punch his sanctimonious phizzog within about 2 minutes of the consultation starting.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2014)

I wonder what any of these idiots would do in Ukraine? What would they do if they got attacked by a nazi? Ask them to check their nazi's privilege? Is there an intersectional pie chart that we can look at?


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I wonder what any of these idiots would do in Ukraine? What would they do if they got attacked by a nazi? Ask them to check their nazi's privilege? Is there an intersectional pie chart that we can look at?



I'm hopeful that lauriepenny is on her way to Kiev at this moment, and we'll be reading her report from the front line in the next issue of Workers' Girder


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I wonder what any of these idiots would do in Ukraine? What would they do if they got attacked by a nazi? Ask them to check their nazi's privilege? Is there an intersectional pie chart that we can look at?


If fractionMan is kind enough to have a go at the priv-off app, it should include a neo-nazi card.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm hopeful that lauriepenny is on her way to Kiev at this moment, and we'll be reading her report from the front line in the next issue of Worker's Girder





> _Sorry, guys_, but I'm not going back out there today. Really don't want to be arrested and deported just for journalism.


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2014)

> _Sorry, guys_, but I'm not going back out there today. Really don't want to be arrested and deported just for journalism.





> In _war_, _truth is the first casualty_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm looking forward to Laura joining forces with Amanda Palmer, Jacobin Nambla and the #MonetiseWallStreet bunch to organise the ‘BanderaAid’ charity single.



> Do they know it's extreme right-wing Orthodox Christian nationalism again?



_Crowdfund it and they will come._


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 21, 2014)

You've probably heard the ATOS news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26287199

But why are the BBC News Channel not covering it?   The story was available online this morning but when I went to look for it on the TV..... nothing.  The BBC Saints & Scroungers programme, an infomercial for the Tories, suggests to me that the BBC is in their pocket to some degree.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> You've probably heard the ATOS news:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26287199
> 
> But why are the BBC News Channel not covering it?   The story was available online this morning but when I went to look for it on the TV..... nothing.  The BBC Saints & Scroungers programme, an infomercial for the Tories, suggests to me that the BBC is in their pocket to some degree.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-bias--on-the-right-not-the-left-9129639.html

I remember when Spain watchers used to look disparagingly at Spain in regards to the state broadcaster, they laughed at how each party would put their boys in positions of power and the bias would be obvious. Well, we have it too now.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 21, 2014)

Flavia "intersectional or bullshit" Dzodan served up a twitter rant about those racist old Marxists. You'll get the tone from one example:

@redlightvoices: White Marxist dudes, if you are "revolution", I rather stay in this shit.When you are in charge, it'll be as awful minus pumpkin spice latte


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Flavia "intersectional or bullshit" Dzodan...



Who?



> I am a writer, public speaker, media maker, ideas instigator, content creator and facilitator living in Amsterdam.



Oh.


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2014)

> Also, and to be clear, I want NOTHING to do with these conceptions of "revolution" that always imply some form of violence
> 
> It is not because I am a lovey dovey pacifist but because violence is all we've had for centuries. "Revolution" for me is something else


Hmmm. 



> it's easy to say "race doesn't matter" when its not your children dying from white supremacy


That long awaited intersecionality analysis of Syria seems further away than ever.


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Who?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh.


You left out "business developer".


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Flavia "intersectional or bullshit" Dzodan served up a twitter rant about those racist old Marxists. You'll get the tone from one example:
> 
> @redlightvoices: White Marxist dudes, if you are "revolution", I rather stay in this shit.When you are in charge, it'll be as awful minus pumpkin spice latte



If I can't have pumpkin spice latte, it's not my revolution...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

Flavia Dzodan is...



> ...a writer, media analyst and marketing consultant based in Amsterdam





> ...a marketeer (and she sees no shame in it!) and media analyst with a penchant for pop culture and endless discussions on the merits of TV shows and bad advertising practices.





> ...half Hispanic, half Eastern European and lives in Amsterdam, The Netherlands, by way of her home town of Buenos Aires (where she was born and raised).





> ...a truly adopted Amsterdammer capable of cursing in three languages, after living there for almost a decade and a half.





> ...an “ideas instigator” and writes mostly about politics, race and feminism with the occasional pop culture inspired rant added for good measure, from her very mixed perspective of place of birth, culture and education in the Global South and current European residence.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 21, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> You've probably heard the ATOS news:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26287199
> 
> But why are the BBC News Channel not covering it? <snip>


Mentioned on R4's news, also on You and Yours and PM.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes, Dzodan is a woman of many job descriptions. One or two of which are a little eyebrow raising. But for our purposes she is of note for coining the emblematic intersectionalist slogan.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, Dzodan is a woman of many job descriptions. One or two of which are a little eyebrow raising. But for our purposes she is of note for coining the emblematic intersectionalist slogan.



You mean


> my feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit


?


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 21, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Mentioned on R4's news, also on You and Yours and PM.


Thanks 

But coverage on the TV was zero.  Lunchtime I watched at least one whole news cycle of the satellite channel 503, and there was nothing.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 21, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> <snip>Lunchtime I watched at least one whole news cycle of the satellite channel 503, and there was nothing.


The thing is, you'll probably find more people getting the news off the radio or the net during the day, instead of on television.

Edited to add:  BTW check your having time to watch the telly during the day privilege.


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2014)

> ...half Hispanic, half Eastern European and lives in Amsterdam


She needs to check her not inconsiderable privilege imho.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 21, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> You mean
> 
> ?


Yes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 21, 2014)

That quote will hopefully be following her around for the entire length of her career.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes.


I have the estimable SAM! (Sometimes of This Parish) to thank for illuminating me on this point


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 21, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Who?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh.



Yes, that's right, she's a self-facilitating media node.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, that's right, she's a self-facilitating media node.



I get the impression that she doesn't actually write much about politics for mainstream media outlets or academic ones. Her mass media involvement seems to be as a marketing consultant, while in political terms she's a blogger not a columnist.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Flavia "intersectional or bullshit" Dzodan served up a twitter rant about those racist old Marxists. You'll get the tone from one example:
> 
> @redlightvoices: White Marxist dudes, if you are "revolution", I rather stay in this shit.When you are in charge, it'll be as awful minus pumpkin spice latte



My intersectionalism will be consumerist or it will be bullshit or is that the other way around?


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2014)

> When you are in charge, it'll be as awful minus pumpkin spice latte


This is the problem with 140 characters. Drivel that makes no sense is reduced into making even less sense.



> the issue is that they (white cis marxist dudes!) demand we give up our very livelihoods so that theirs can prevail. It's a matter of survival


Shake in your shoes marketing consultants!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

SHARE THE PAIN:



> *Laurie PennyVerified account* ‏@*PennyRed*
> So, fun facts. Because of BBC travel-sharing policies I am now stuck in a car with a Tory MP for 4 hours. Wish me luck?
> 
> 9:46 PM - 21 Feb 2014


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2014)

lauriepenny don't worry you two can spend your time talking about microaggressive reverse snobbery


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Shake in your shoes marketing consultants!



What was the context for that particularly bizarre one? It sounds almost like she was responding to an argument about her class position, but surely not?


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> SHARE THE PAIN:


The responses...



			
				martin rowson said:
			
		

> Start a sing-song! Start off with Avanti Popolo & see if you get round to Anarchy in the UK by Reading






Nigel Irritable said:


> What was the context for that particularly bizarre one? It sounds almost like she was responding to an argument about her class position, but surely not?


I can't remember tbh. I'll have a look tomorrow. Lots of nuggets in there, but that stuck out.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 22, 2014)

so let me get this straight.  some middle class business type doesn't want a marxist revolution?  but wants us to believe that's because of racism rather than because she's a middle class business type?  

and is anyone actually falling for this shit?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 22, 2014)

sorry guys but my problems with Laurie are melting away at that pic of her with the dog, fuck sake.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 22, 2014)

revol68 said:


> sorry guys but my problems with Laurie are melting away at that pic of her with the dog, fuck sake.



Until you look closely and can see her expression suggests she is thinking "look at me with this dog, aren't I cool and cute" rather than "look at the cute doggie"


----------



## rekil (Feb 22, 2014)

The same pricks that fapped over Snowden for releasing them docs that show what the US gets up to now pooh-poohing the notion that the US is sponsoring efforts to destabilise Venezuela, and apparently underestimaing the implacable hatred the latin american right have for any form of socialism into the bargain. 

Exhibit a)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 22, 2014)

And there's me thinking that Venezuelans _are _americans. I think her statement is a little bit racism and cultural imperialism


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2014)

Serious politics going on and her concern is with calling some racist.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 22, 2014)

> @*mollycrabapple*
> Painting everyone on the streets in a foreign country as a dupe (even if you don't like their cause) is dangerously US-centric and insulting



LOL


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2014)

These idiots protesting on the streets of Caracas are passing around racist bullshit about how Maduro is flying in black Cuban soldiers to rape middle-class Venezuelans, if people with views like that in America were protesting she'd probably call them hicks or rednecks.


----------



## caleb (Feb 22, 2014)

In my SU elections the one "intersectionalist" running for the Equality & Diversity position is also the only able-bodied, white person. I'm pretty sure, to use a phrase so beloved of twitter intersectionalists, she should "sit the fuck down and learn" from those running against her. But then how would she get that nice job in the Labour Party after.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2014)

Releasing right-wing oligarchs with fantastic hair is a little bit communism...


----------



## rekil (Feb 22, 2014)

caleb said:


> In my SU elections the one "intersectionalist" running for the Equality & Diversity position is also the only able-bodied, white person. I'm pretty sure, to use a phrase so beloved of twitter intersectionalists, she should "sit the fuck down and learn" from those running against her. But then how would she get that nice job in the Labour Party after.


Private school as well?


----------



## caleb (Feb 22, 2014)

Apparently not. But definitely posh.

It's funny though, she's being supported by all the intersectional lot and the self-proclaimed revolutionaries (not that there are many of them, or that they are actually revolutionary) despite a) the fucking obvious fact that by their own standards she probably shouldn't be running at all, and b) she's big in the student Labour society.

I genuinely would prefer a fat, Tory toff to win over the student Labour lot and their friends. More or less the same class interests, but without all the piousness, or, funnily enough, the ambition.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 22, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> LOL



I assume she takes the same approach when she's talking about the tea party then.


----------



## rekil (Feb 22, 2014)

caleb said:


> In my SU elections the one "intersectionalist" running for the Equality & Diversity position is also the only able-bodied, white person. I'm pretty sure, to use a phrase so beloved of twitter intersectionalists, she should "sit the fuck down and learn" from those running against her. But then how would she get that nice job in the Labour Party after.


This prompted me to stick this vid up. Noam Titelman of the Chile student movement talking about the danger of falling into the trap of focusing on individual issues at the expense of attacking structural issues. It would've been nice if he'd gone into a bit more detail about how the word 'activism' is suspicious. He's jewish and hispanic but is that enough to save him from the wrath of the private school oxbridge intersectionalistas?



Spoiler


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> This prompted me to stick this vid up. Noam Titelman of the Chile student movement talking about the danger of falling into the trap of focusing on individual issues at the expense of attacking structural issues. It would've been nice if he'd gone into a bit more detail about how the word 'activism' is suspicious. He's jewish and hispanic but is that enough to save him from the wrath of the private school oxbridge intersectionalistas?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



Noam Titelman?

NO, I'M ENTITLED MAN more like


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 22, 2014)

What the heck is going on?





Long thread read.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 22, 2014)

some stupid twitter bullshit about whose the most oppressed.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 22, 2014)

A friend commented on some billy Bragg bollox about masculinity so it appeared on my Facebook. Ugh!


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> some stupid twitter bullshit about whose the most oppressed.


They should check the PD wheel of oppression, then they'd know for sure.

Oppression isn't some competition.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> A friend commented on some billy Bragg bollox about masculinity so it appeared on my Facebook. Ugh!


first world problems >>>


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 22, 2014)

Bragg is engaging with me, apparently, he is not a whore as he wasn't paid to shill for the lib dems, or for soth bank. It's ok cos he _believes!_


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 22, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> What the heck is going on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The part when fellow Urban75 poster Sam Ambreen informs Penny that yes, she should just quietly listen when she's called a turd, a whore and a vulture, is my favourite bit of the row. Well apart from LP ending up apologising for being offended.

The hazards of being a feminist in the age of privilege mongering.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 22, 2014)

Brilliant this is why it is so genius they are going to alienate themselves


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Bragg is engaging with me, apparently, he is not a whore as he wasn't paid to shill for the lib dems, or for soth bank. It's ok cos he _believes!_


not getting paid makes him a mug


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 22, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Brilliant this is why it is so genius they are going to alienate themselves


Pop (journalism) will eat itself


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The part when fellow Urban75 poster Sam Ambreen informs Penny that yes, she should just quietly listen when she's called a turd, a whore and a vulture, is my favourite bit of the row. Well apart from LP ending up apologising for being offended.
> 
> The hazards of being a feminist in the age of privilege mongering.


Intersectionalism really does defy logic.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 22, 2014)

LOL, I think they are pissed that Penny does not condemn Helen Lewis for being poor at intersectionality and by virtue, she is culpable for the bullying Red Light Voice gets from 'cronies' of Lewis on Twitter for daring to criticise Lewis.

Can we add that to the wheel of oppression?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 22, 2014)

Does constipation count as an oppression?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2014)

Who's Lena Dunham? And why is she a racist?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 22, 2014)

imagine if we all stopped looking at twitter.  imagine if the only people reading twitter were idiots like that.  imagine how much work we could get done whilst they were arguing about who is the biggest racist?


----------



## rekil (Feb 22, 2014)

.


SpineyNorman said:


> Does constipation count as an oppression?


Or piles?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Who's Lena Dunham? And why is she a racist?



where's that from?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> Or piles?



Both piles and constipation - my arse oppressions are intersecting in a very painful way today!


----------



## rekil (Feb 22, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Both piles and constipation - my arse oppressions are intersecting in a very painful way today!


Maybe they can be included on the disability 'axis'.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 22, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Both piles and constipation - my arse oppressions are intersecting in a very painful way today!


Colofac worked well for both for me


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

Hahaha, Ross Wolfe getting roped in on that, as part of the "same ilk" as Helen Lewis and Laurie Penny 

Ross' worst crime was questioning whether Flavia is a woman of colour. Flavia is pretty damn pasty, if anyone cares to have a look, but apparently her hair is unlike the hair of any white woman, so she counts as a "WoC" - her own words, basically.


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

Fucking great when Sam Ambreen praised Laurie Penny for being willing to "listen and learn" or something when she's getting vile abuse. And Laurie kept saying she'd just "listen and learn"... no defiance, no questioning. It's a sad state of affairs, really.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

This intersectional one-upsies is all fun and games until you're all stuck in some freezing cold, remote mountain lodge, stabbing and strangling each other for tweeting inadequate self-critiques


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2014)

Have we had an intersectional analysis of Ukraine yet?

'Hi can you help, I just got beaten up by Ukrainian fash for being a Jew'
'I'm sorry! Why don't you fuck off with your white tears, why would you think that we should help you, and by the way stop being microaggressive'
'What does that mean, my English isn't very good'
'It isn't my fault I understand the jargon, go and read tumblr or something'
'Ok, but the fash have just taken over my entire town, and I don't know what to do'
'The fash have taken over your whole town?? that's like what I have to go through on Twitter EVERY DAY'
'My neighbour just got told to get out because he's gay'
'All these cis white dudes and their problems. What do you think about Richard Seymour?'
'I'm sorry who is this person?'
'You don't even know, that shows how little you care about creating a safe space, I bet you don't even notice if Helen Lewis posts something on the new statesman website'
'I haven't got any food! And the buses have all stopped running'
'You see, you aren't even thinking about your cis white privilege, someone just posted about race play on my Facebook and didn't even put a trigger warning, I feel so invalidated, you couldn't possibly understand'
'Have you been listening to a single word I've been saying?? I've got to try and stop fash marching past our street, I've got to go, it was a total waste of time to ask you anything' 
'You racist!'


----------



## Brechin Sprout (Feb 23, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not getting paid makes him a mug


Cos doing anything for nothing is a mug's game? Have you got any friends. How much do you charge them? What's the rate for standing at a barricade?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2014)

Brechin Sprout said:


> Cos doing anything for nothing is a mug's game? Have you got any friends. How much do you charge them? What's the rate for standing at a barricade?


standing on the barricades and being clegg's patsy two different things


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

The more I think about what went down between Flavia Dzodan and Penny, etc. the angrier I get. What a fucking mental state of affairs where shouting (sexist) abuse at women is good feminism, but objecting to receiving that abuse makes you a racist.

Is there an end to all this?


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

It's also astonishing to think that Flavia _is a white woman. _But self-identifying as a 'WoC' _on account of her hair, _gives her some sort of right to attack other women.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> It's also astonishing to think that Flavia _is a white woman. _But self-identifying as a 'WoC' _on account of her hair, _gives her some sort of right to attack other women.



wtf.  Really ?  Jesus.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> The more I think about what went down between Flavia Dzodan and Penny, etc. the angrier I get. What a fucking mental state of affairs where shouting (sexist) abuse at women is good feminism, but objecting to receiving that abuse makes you a racist.
> 
> Is there an end to all this?



Hoisted by her own petard so I don't care about her. What I do care about is the number of people who don't promote nonsense ideologies like intersectionality and privilege theory that are targeted by its adherents and the no doubt countless numbers of people who have been alienated by them and lost forever to left-wing politics.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> It's also astonishing to think that Flavia _is a white woman. _But self-identifying as a 'WoC' _on account of her hair, _gives her some sort of right to attack other women.



Very confusing. She lives in the Netherlands but she calls herself _sudaca_, a pejorative term (like wetback) used by racists in Spain. True, it's a term that has been reclaimed by some Latin Americans in Spain but it's so culturally specific I can't imagine that anyone gets called it in the Netherlands so it wouldn't exactly be necessary to reclaim it... she's just appropriating victimhood for the sake of fashion.


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> wtf.  Really ?  Jesus.



She's from Argentina and her surname is Croatian. With those credentials, I'm sure Penny's Irish - Jewish - Maltese mash-up would also entitle her to self-identify as a 'WoC', but, oh wait...



> You gotta understand my hair is VERY curly and VERY textured. *Nothing* like a White woman's hair. And back then it was very long







Cool, that's settled then. Your hair is nothing like a white woman's.



J Ed said:


> Hoisted by her own petard so I don't care about her. What I do care about is the number of people who don't promote nonsense ideologies like intersectionality and privilege theory that are targeted by its adherents and the no doubt countless numbers of people who have been alienated by them and lost forever to left-wing politics.



Oh sure, and the fact Penny didn't just say "fuck this, why should I listen to abuse..." but rather apologised is pretty shameful. She had an opportunity here, where it was pretty obvious how fucking nuts the whole thing is, to not back down and to challenge them. But she preferred to "sit the fuck down and listen" (ugh).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> imagine if we all stopped looking at twitter.  imagine if the only people reading twitter were idiots like that.  imagine how much work we could get done whilst they were arguing about who is the biggest racist?



The problem being that we know that some of these twitterers are "opinion-formers" and "influence-mongers", so we'd forever feel paranoid that while we were working, they'd be changing the _status quo_ around us!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

**nah scrub all that* - my mistake**


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2014)

To be fair I've had people say out of order things to me and I've apologized, out of a lack of confidence  not sure we should be having a go at lp about that


----------



## weepiper (Feb 23, 2014)

Someone I follow on twitter sums up neatly how I feel about twitter feminists


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

The other latest twitter feminist thing is using "sex work abolition" as a term of abuse - this from self-proclaimed "anarchists" and "communists", and calling people who believe gender is a social construct "transphobic".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> Or piles?



((((( friedaweed )))))


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> The more I think about what went down between Flavia Dzodan and Penny, etc. the angrier I get. What a fucking mental state of affairs where shouting (sexist) abuse at women is good feminism, but objecting to receiving that abuse makes you a racist.
> 
> Is there an end to all this?



You're possibly getting angry because you're not seeing that beyond this bullshit twitter intersectionalising load of flabby arse, there are feminisms that point and laugh at the likes of Dzodan and Penny, who think "get over yourselves, and do something for *women* not just for the single woman you obviously care so much about".


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

Btw, she pimps for the Abu Dhabi regime through the Abu Dhabi Music & Arts Foundation (controlled by this prick) - attempting to give a cultured modern face to that monstrosity of a place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Very confusing. She lives in the Netherlands but she calls herself _sudaca_, a pejorative term (like wetback) used by racists in Spain. True, it's a term that has been reclaimed by some Latin Americans in Spain but it's so culturally specific I can't imagine that anyone gets called it in the Netherlands so it wouldn't exactly be necessary to reclaim it... *she's just appropriating victimhood for the sake of fashion.*



As her class always do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> The other latest twitter feminist thing is using "sex work abolition" as a term of abuse - this from self-proclaimed "anarchists" and "communists", and calling people who believe gender is a social construct "transphobic".



Most of whom won't understand social constructionism beyond what they learned in A level sociology (insert customary lecture about the dangers of know-nothings using academy-speak in their arguments).


----------



## rekil (Feb 23, 2014)

Curly hair? Could a claim to POCness be any more tenuous?

Dzodan is definitely going to get a nice priv-off matchup with someone.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Feb 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Most of whom won't understand social constructionism


I just googled that VP, & tbf it is quite hard to understand. I looked on wiki & it requires the reader to look at lots of other stuff as well like brute facts & teleology for example.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> It's also astonishing to think that Flavia _is a white woman. _But self-identifying as a 'WoC' _on account of her hair, _gives her some sort of right to attack other women.



That's fucking ace, what a playa


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

It takes lots of chutzpah, certainly.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 23, 2014)

What's the opposite of chutzpah? We need another spoke on the wheel.

((( lauriepenny ))) comprehensively outplayed.


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 23, 2014)

caleb said:


> The more I think about what went down between Flavia Dzodan and Penny, etc. the angrier I get. What a fucking mental state of affairs where shouting (sexist) abuse at women is good feminism, but objecting to receiving that abuse makes you a racist.
> 
> Is there an end to all this?


I wonder if someone (maybe LP herself) will suddenly get sick of it and do a 'controversial' denunciation of their former beliefs. Which will then be discussed for years on end by the same handful of people promoting this nonsense.

Sad thing is, I've read some intersectionalist writing I liked and it can be used more as a structural critique than a priv-off. I think it's important to distinguish between some of the more nuanced texts on intersectionalism and the kind of neo-maoist self-criticism happening here. People like bell hooks are worth reading even if you don't agree with them. The twittersectionalists are not worth reading. I think it's sad that they've managed to smear the term intersectionalism by their involvement with it.

I imagine many urbanites would find much to agree with in Class Matters for example, though you can argue her view of class isn't quite structural enough: http://www.feminish.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Where-We-Stand-Class-Matters.pdf

But there's stuff worth talking about in there, whatever you think of it, and it's a shame that a few idiots with platforms have managed to completely degrade the discussion.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> To be fair I've had people say out of order things to me and I've apologized, out of a lack of confidence  not sure we should be having a go at lp about that



LP doesn't lack confidence, she has public school arrogance in spades, she's just following the rules of the game she helps to popularise.


----------



## rekil (Feb 23, 2014)

Belushi said:


> What's the opposite of chutzpah? We need another spoke on the wheel.
> 
> ((( lauriepenny ))) comprehensively outplayed.


She may be cheered by her breathtaking comeback and #victory in the priv-off with Camila Vallejo, if I ever get round to finishing it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> I wonder if someone (maybe LP herself) will suddenly get sick of it and do a 'controversial' denunciation of their former beliefs. Which will then be discussed for years on end by the same handful of people promoting this nonsense.
> 
> Sad thing is, I've read some intersectionalist writing I liked and it can be used more as a structural critique than a priv-off. I think it's important to distinguish between some of the more nuanced texts on intersectionalism and the kind of neo-maoist self-criticism happening here. People like bell hooks are worth reading even if you don't agree with them. The twittersectionalists are not worth reading. I think it's sad that they've managed to smear the term intersectionalism by their involvement with it.
> 
> ...


But you can't just pick on people you like and say _these are real intersectionalists. _You need to ask how and why stuff that she helped popularise (and not just amongst elite graduates, not in her case) has turned into this shit. I like bell hooks, but all this stuff is a mighty long walk around the block only to end up back at "The white worker who has been displaced at General Motors has more in common with the displaced black worker than those larger white CEO's, and those Wall Street people who are determining their fate... whose thievery and greed is determining their fate."


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> But you can't just pick on people you like and say _these are real intersectionalists. _You need to ask how and why stuff that she helped popularise (and not just amongst elite graduates, not in her case) has turned into this shit. I like bell hooks, but all this stuff is a mighty long walk around the block only to end up back at "The white worker who has been displaced at General Motors has more in common with the displaced black worker than those larger white CEO's, and those Wall Street people who are determining their fate... whose thievery and greed is determining their fate."


I don't suppose we'll agree on this but for me class-based politics always had a certain totalitarian potential - there is one right class, one right struggle, one right revolution, one way of seeing capitalism, one class enemy etc. I do see the authoritarian communist regimes as to some degree produced by Marxian thought. A grand unified 'correct' way of seeing the world requires a unified interpreter and enforcer - which turned out to be the party, which turns out to require violence to ensure everyone is engaging in the struggle in the 'correct' manner.

So (a) the same critique you apply to bell hooks should be applied to the more orthodox class-based perspectives - which is to say, what did it develop into? 
and (b) to some extent I feel the above-mentioned flaws of the strongly class-based perspectives do need balancing out, perhaps even with some stuff from the intersectionalist side, even though it is also flawed and has clearly led to some bullshit.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

I'd ask you why you first paragraph is telling me/others this? Why you're offering such an absurd caricatured position  - how have you arrived at such a crude misreading? Which should explain why i don't think the second para says very much at all. I'm not at all interested in talking to people who really genuinely think that to argue for class readings of society means that all that exists is class, and that as only class exists there must then be one single position, and if one position, then one party and so on. It's ludicrous. It really is.  After ten year on here you still think this?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> for me class-based politics always had a certain totalitarian potential - there is one right class, one right struggle, one right revolution, one way of seeing capitalism, one class enemy etc.



This makes me think you are a bona fide idiot.

Congratulations! You win a prize! 

(I not be no heap big clever dick like you but, come on, if lumpen fools like wot I is can understand class in more nuanced, more accurate terms than that, then you deserve opprobrium and mockery.)


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 23, 2014)

I didn't say that is what class-based politics is. I said it always had a certain potential within it, which did find expression. Likewise bell hooks writing has the potential within it to be read as a splintering identity politics. People's un-nuanced readings of texts shouldn't mean the texts should be dismissed but those readings may help us identify problems with the text. This twittersectionalist bullshit is descended from bell hooks thought. And authoritarian communism was descended from Marxist thought. I think that in both cases it is possible to identify the flaws within each that left them open to those misreadings.


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 23, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> This makes me think you are a bona fide idiot.
> 
> Congratulations! You win a prize!
> 
> (I not be no heap big clever dick like you but, come on, if lumpen fools like wot I is can understand class in more nuanced, more accurate terms than that, then you deserve opprobrium and mockery.)


Never had a shiver go up your spine when you heard the chant "One solution: revolution!"?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2014)

of anticipation?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

Weird how class = marx for brain addict.


----------



## andysays (Feb 23, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> They should check the PD wheel of oppression, then they'd know for sure.
> 
> *Oppression isn't some competition.*



Hmm, have you actually been paying attention to this thread?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 23, 2014)

andysays said:


> Hmm, have you actually been paying attention to this thread?


Stop oppressing me with your facts


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 23, 2014)

http://www.redlightpolitics.info/post/77475031929/i-hate-you-all-media-vultures


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

Does she hate Nahyan bin Mubarak Al Nahyan who is the boss of the United Arab Emirates Ministry of Culture, Youth, and Social Development? Is working for him in helping his regime sell itself as something other than the authoritarian monarchy that it is whoring or pimping? Or a bit of both?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2014)

My name is Flavia Dzodan, I am a writer, public speaker, media maker, ideas instigator, content creator and facilitator living in Amsterdam. This blog is about the spaces and intersections between politics, culture, race and gender matters with some humor and pop culture thrown in the mix.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My name is Flavia Dzodan...



No,* I'M *Flavia Dzodan!


----------



## caleb (Feb 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Most of whom won't understand social constructionism beyond what they learned in A level sociology (insert customary lecture about the dangers of know-nothings using academy-speak in their arguments).



Well, hey, what's the point trying to understand things when you can shout them down, call them out, smear them, and so on? It's everyone else who has to "sit the fuck down, shut up and listen". 

Just about sums it up, once saw somebody claim they'd read "a few pages" of Judith Butler's 'Gender Trouble' and could tell it was "transphobic trash".


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My name is Flavia Dzodan, I am a writer, public speaker, media maker, ideas instigator, content creator and facilitator living in Amsterdam. This blog is about the spaces and intersections between politics, culture, race and gender matters with some humor and pop culture thrown in the mix.


Get yourself down to Abu  Dhabi - mad shit going on there, all sort of state run events and shit like that.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Get yourself down to Abu  Dhabi - mad shit going on there, all sort of state run events and shit like that.



How come she's a feminist and works for a regime like that? Or does it not matter because theyre not white??


----------



## TruXta (Feb 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How come she's a feminist and works for a regime like that? Or does it not matter because theyre not white??


Stupid. Or evil. Bit of both?


----------



## Belushi (Feb 23, 2014)

She's the Mr Benn of intersectionality, magically becoming a conservative muslim man when a wedge of greenbacks hits the table.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

Seriously:



> You can pick my carcass but you will never have my dignity.



this...fucking...drivel is dignity? I've met people who went out on strike for 18 months and fought every single day of those 18 months and lost every single thing they held dear as a price and still would not give up. That's dignity you curly haired twat.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2014)

http://www.redlightpolitics.info/post/69964018924/the-language-of-solidarity


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

Belushi said:


> She's the Mr Benn of intersectionality, magically becoming a conservative muslim man when a wedge of greenbacks hits the table.


Only transphobic scum wouldn't be able to get their tiny little minds around that


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> you curly haired twat.



Miscymotrichist social-fascist


----------



## rekil (Feb 23, 2014)

..


butchersapron said:


> Seriously:
> 
> 
> 
> this...fucking...drivel is dignity? I've met people who went out on strike for 18 months and fought every single day of those 18 months and lost every single thing they held dear as a price and still would not give up. That's dignity you curly haired twat.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 23, 2014)

I'd never heard of Flavia Dzodan until this thread.  First time I've heard of an 'ideas instigator' as well.  
_
Ideas instigator_, lol.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My name is Flavia Dzodan, I am a writer, public speaker, media maker, ideas instigator, content creator and facilitator living in Amsterdam. This blog is about the spaces and intersections between politics, culture, race and gender matters with some humor and pop culture thrown in the mix.




i read that when i looked her up.  why anyone would take her politics seriously is something i don't understand.  her politics are as useless and stupid as nick clegg's.  if she claims to be left wing that's her bullshit, but anyone taking her seriously is a fucking idiot.  she's a capitalist fraud and will be straight to the camps come the glorious day.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I'd never heard of Flavia Dzodan until this thread.  First time I've heard of an 'ideas instigator' as well.



I'm the trouble starter, ideas instigator,
I'm the twitter addicted, marketing hipster,

I'm a trendstarter, terrific trendstarter,
You're the trend martyr, twisted trend martyr,
I'm a trendstarter, terrific trendstarter.

I'm the idiot you hated, filthy lucre infatuated,
Yeah I'm the pain-in-the-arse, failed intersectionalisted...


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 23, 2014)

You never know, she might google her name and end up here.  She could tell us how oppressed her hair is, or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> You never know, she might google her name and end up here.  She could tell us how oppressed her hair is, or something.


she could always go to a different salon


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2014)

> My name is Flavia Dzodan, Commanders of the Army of The North, General of the Felix Legion, father to a murdered child, husband to a murdered wife and I will have my vengeance in this life or the next. Or on Twitter


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

> My name is Flavia Dzodan. You killed my career. Prepare to endure tedious tweets that are really dire.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2014)

_Hello. My name is  Flavia Dzodan. You killed my father. Prepare to be called the fuck out._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 23, 2014)

> Hello, my name is Flavia Dzodan - and you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2014)

got halfway through reworking 'my name is luka' before the depressing lyrics of the original text threw me off beam.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 24, 2014)

_Hello. My name is Flavia Dzodan. Is it me you're looking for?_


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Cause I'm Flavia Dzodan, I'm the real intersectionalista
All you other POCs are just imitatah
So won't the real Flavia please stand up,
Please stand up, please stand up?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> ...please stand up,
> Please stand up, please stand up?



Bit fucking _ableist_, n'est-ce pas?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

I feel dirty pointing it out... But essentially what we have just done is create a tumblr. WITHOUT PICTURES.


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

There has a to be a Flavia Flav one. Brocialists Are A Joke etc


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> There has a to be a Flavia Flav one. Brocialists Are A Joke etc


WE GOT TO FIGHT THE POWERS THAT BE (EXCEPT IN THE U.A.E.)


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> There has a to be a Flavia Flav one. Brocialists Are A Joke etc


Yes, we have the ideal one for if she were a 911 loon, but sadly appears not. This is the closest i could find:  "At the beginning, in the late nineties and early 2000s, especially after the World Trade Center debacle..."


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Cis White Fems Are A Joke As Well


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

> Intersectionalism is funny how, I mean, funny like I'm an intersectional clown? Intersectionalism amuses you? It makes you laugh, it's here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is intersectionalism funny?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> You never know, she might google her name and end up here.  She could tell us how oppressed her hair is, or something.


 If this thread has achieved anything, at least it has made us reflect on our _own_ hair texture.  Workers of all salons unite, you have nothing to lose but your Alberto VO5!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

Wilf said:


> If this thread has achieved anything, at least it has made us reflect on our _own_ hair texture.  Workers of all salons unite, you have nothing to lose but your Alberto VO5!


yes. but this in itself highlights the hair tyranny those with shining pates have to live under. why can't she be grateful she has hair and just shut the fuck up about it? how does she imagine this constant harping on about the quality of her hair makes the likes of samuel l jackson feel?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> I don't suppose we'll agree on this but for me class-based politics always had a certain totalitarian potential - there is one right class, one right struggle, one right revolution, one way of seeing capitalism, one class enemy etc. I do see the authoritarian communist regimes as to some degree produced by Marxian thought. A grand unified 'correct' way of seeing the world requires a unified interpreter and enforcer - which turned out to be the party, which turns out to require violence to ensure everyone is engaging in the struggle in the 'correct' manner.



You're conflating the actions of the upper heirarchy of political movements with the needs, desires and actions of the class.
They're not the same thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> I didn't say that is what class-based politics is. I said it always had a certain potential within it, which did find expression. Likewise bell hooks writing has the potential within it to be read as a splintering identity politics. People's un-nuanced readings of texts shouldn't mean the texts should be dismissed but those readings may help us identify problems with the text. This twittersectionalist bullshit is descended from bell hooks thought. And authoritarian communism was descended from Marxist thought. I think that in both cases it is possible to identify the flaws within each that left them open to those misreadings.



All representational political forms inhere a potential for authoritarianism - it's the risk we all take if we assign our own power to someone else to manage on our behalf.  It isn't merely a failing of communisms or socialisms.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

caleb said:


> Well, hey, what's the point trying to understand things when you can shout them down, call them out, smear them, and so on? It's everyone else who has to "sit the fuck down, shut up and listen".
> 
> Just about sums it up, once saw somebody claim they'd read "a few pages" of Judith Butler's 'Gender Trouble' and could tell it was "transphobic trash".




It does sometimes seem that the main qualification the twitter _intersectionistas_ and their bloggie sistren have, besides the arrogance to presume to speak for others without let, is a fondness for ill-informed judgementalism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

Belushi said:


> She's the Mr Benn of intersectionality, magically becoming a conservative muslim man when a wedge of greenbacks hits the table.



She probably even lives on the intersection of Festive Rd and the high street!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.redlightpolitics.info/post/69964018924/the-language-of-solidarity



That's an extremely poor attempt at textual analysis (okay, only of a two-word phrase!) by Dzodan.  She has, for example, elided one entire set of contextually-valid meanings of the word "show" (those to do with revealing) from her little rant about how "show" is performative.
Sorry, sister Dzodan, but it's also revelatory.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's an extremely poor attempt at textual analysis (okay, only of a two-word phrase!) by Dzodan.  She has, for example, elided one entire set of contextually-valid meanings of the word "show" (those to do with revealing) from her little rant about how "show" is performative.
> Sorry, sister Dzodan, but it's also revelatory.


 
Also, since when has that happened in normal speech, it's normal for people to say "ooh I think  I'll go along to visit so and so in hospital, and show a bit of solidarity" (or it is in my family anyway) not "i think i'll stand in solidarity" 

showing solidarity has a wide variety of meanings if you see what i mean


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's an extremely poor attempt at textual analysis (okay, only of a two-word phrase!) by Dzodan.  She has, for example, elided one entire set of contextually-valid meanings of the word "show" (those to do with revealing) from her little rant about how "show" is performative.
> Sorry, sister Dzodan, but it's also revelatory.


I read in another piece of hers where she has the curly haired cheek to damn 'call out culture' - from this she doesn't seem to know what 'performative means. It doesn't mean performing. It doesn't mean putting on a performance and " and go on with our lives.". It means _the exact opposite_ in fact.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously:
> 
> 
> 
> this...fucking...drivel is dignity? I've met people who went out on strike for 18 months and fought every single day of those 18 months and lost every single thing they held dear as a price and still would not give up. That's dignity you curly haired twat.



You need to view her scribblings through the lens of self-obsession, rather than through any rational filter.
It's an interesting trait shared by the majority of our intersectionalistas, this self-obsession.  The very things that allow them to interpollate themselves with others and "identify with" them, also appear *to them* to give them licence to assert that their utterances on behalf of others they interpollate with, have validity.
There's a failure (remarkable given their pontifications about intersecting oppressions) to realise that unless you're effectively "elected" to speak for others, your claims on their behalf have *no* validity, they're just the rantings of an egotist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also, since when has that happened in normal speech, it's normal for people to say "ooh I think  I'll go along to visit so and so in hospital, and show a bit of solidarity" (or it is in my family anyway) not "i think i'll stand in solidarity"
> 
> showing solidarity has a wide variety of meanings if you see what i mean



Well quite!
And wilfully ignoring half of that wide variety of meanings on the basis that they don't suit her fatuous definition, is the act of an arse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm the trouble starter, ideas instigator,
> I'm the twitter addicted, marketing hipster,
> 
> I'm a trendstarter, terrific trendstarter,
> ...



Now if only someone composes a rhyme matching the phrases "ideas instigator" and "chronic masturbator"...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Feb 24, 2014)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...the-concept-of-intersectionality-9146871.html


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

Wilf said:


> If this thread has achieved anything, at least it has made us reflect on our _own_ hair texture.  Workers of all salons unite, you have nothing to lose but your Alberto VO5!



Bet the woman has never suffered the indignity that is the Jewfro, either!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Now if only someone composes a rhyme matching the phrases "ideas instigator" and "chronic masturbator"...


what about masturbation instigator?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I read in another piece of hers where she has the curly haired cheek to damn 'call out culture' - from this she doesn't seem to know what 'performative means. It doesn't mean performing. It doesn't mean putting on a performance and " and go on with our lives.". It means _the exact opposite_ in fact.



I just wasted five minutes of my life reading that link.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...the-concept-of-intersectionality-9146871.html


An rather good freudian slip from Lees:



> What followed was a harangue from Burchill about why the world had gone to pot because of the left constantly slanging itself.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I just wasted five minutes of my life reading that link.


Yeah, it's self-obsessed drivel given the lie by her real life actions.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Also, at parties I'd have been able to take vicarious pleasure in her increased fame by saying, 'you know laurie penny, that irritating trendy lefty off big brother? She called me a racist on twitter once'





DotCommunist said:


> you will be dining out on that story for years





“...So then Larry Olivier turns round and - quick as a flash - tells Amanda Palmer, ‘Well, to be honest, my dear, everything since _Sandman_ has been utter bilge!’ Poor Mandy didn't know where to look, as you can imagine, and then Larry - the mischievous rogue - started asking young Laura - _insisting_, really - whether she preferred snails or oysters, and she - rather _haltingly_, I felt - replied, all a-stutter, that she did not eat sea food or in fact any meats or fishes or whatever-the-hell-they-are, because of both - and here Larry gave out a great scoff, ‘SCOFF!’ - her deeply-felt ‘politico-cultural-religious precepts’, I believe she said - in that sort of nasally, high-pitched murmur of hers - and her sense of solidarity with all living creatures... To which Larry jumped in and announced ‘What?! This impish young lad's a girl?!’, before turning his back to her to return to his sherry and a game of chess with Ryan Gosling...”


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 49087
> 
> “...So then Larry Olivier turns round and - quick as a flash - tells Amanda Palmer, ‘Well, to be honest, my dear, everything since _Sandman_ has been utter bilge!’ Poor Mandy didn't know where to look, as you can imagine, and then Larry - the mischievous rogue - started asking young Laura - _insisting_, really - whether she preferred snails or oysters, and she - rather _haltingly_, I felt - replied, all a-stutter, that she did not eat sea food or in fact any meats or fishes or whatever-the-hell-they-are, because of both - and here Larry gave out a great scoff, ‘SCOFF!’ - her deeply-felt ‘politico-cultural-religious precepts’, I believe she said - in that sort of nasally, high-pitched murmur of hers - and her sense of solidarity with all living creatures... To which Larry jumped in and announced ‘What?! This impish young lad's a girl?!’, before turning his back to her to return to his sherry and a game of chess with Ryan Gosling...”


not peter ustinov


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

We should anticipate a slew of Twitter War novels and memoirs 

For Whom The Call-Out Tolls
The Forging Of An Ideas Instigator
10 Days That Shook My Mentions


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but this in itself highlights the hair tyranny those with shining pates have to live under. why can't she be grateful she has hair and just shut the fuck up about it? how does she imagine this constant harping on about the quality of her hair makes the likes of samuel l jackson feel?


 
Of course what about those with really thick hair that's difficult to wash? You bald cunts will never know the tyranny of your hair clogging up the plughole, plugholes designed for bald people 

THIS IS BALD PRIVILEGE


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

20 000 tweets under the sea. (not war, but there you go, give us a sec)


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

1984 Retweets


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

All quiet on the mentions front.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> We should anticipate a slew of Twitter War novels and memoirs
> 
> For Whom The Call-Out Tolls
> The Forging Of An Ideas Instigator
> 10 Days That Shook My Mentions




Homage to Twitterlonia


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Of course what about those with really thick hair that's difficult to wash? You bald cunts will never know the tyranny of your hair clogging up the plughole, plugholes designed for bald people
> 
> THIS IS BALD PRIVILEGE


you've clearly never seen your hair fall off en masse and block up the sink.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you've clearly never seen your hair fall off en masse and block up the sink.


 
time for me to go back to the progressive stack - hair privilege AND baldness privilege


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

The rise and fall of the 3rd Like


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_The Ragged Trousered Hipster Kickstarterist _


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_The FULL COMMUNISM Manifesto_ (Tumblr edition)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> All quiet on the mentions front.




Perhaps your Flash needs updating? Have you tried F5? Maybe tweet a link to Owen or Stephen or or or...


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

The battle of cable tweet


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

The Tweet of Brest-Litovsk


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The Tweet of Brest-Litovsk


 
In the shadow of the (facebook) wall


----------



## TopCat (Feb 24, 2014)

"White women don’t give a shit about ‘feminism’, only themselves."

Go on, guess the wannabee writer of the Guardian who wrote this?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Feb 24, 2014)

"Tweeting The Fascists", anyone?  Eh?  Eh?

(Oh, alright, I'll get off Urban now, then)


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

Iwo Jima tweet of anger


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

The Naked And The BLOCKED


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

the master and the majortweeter


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

force tweet from navarone


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> "Tweeting The Fascists", anyone?  Eh?  Eh?
> 
> (Oh, alright, I'll get off Urban now, then)


We did that gag when lauriepenny was begging Tommy Robinson for an interview.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

The unfriending of the like brigade


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

for who the belle trolls


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

where angels fear to troll


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

The Eagle has Tweeted


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

Went the day liked


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

The Dambuskers (tenuous)


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

The Satanic TERFses


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

The Wolf's locked-down twitter profile


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

the bunfight at ok corral


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

My Struggle against four years of lies, cowardice, trolling, invalidation on internet blogs and #media whores


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

Full Metal Hack It


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> The Dambuskers (tenuous)


the damn buskers, a post on Sam Ambreen's blog


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Look To Windbagward


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

on a side note my hair kinks and curls quite badly once it gets longer than two inches. However I cannot lay claim to POC because i am proper milk-pale. I've got other cards in my opression deck though!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The unfriending of the like brigade


Ooh, you're good


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> on a side note my hair kinks and curls quite badly once it gets longer than two inches. However I cannot lay claim to POC because i am proper milk-pale. I've got other cards in my opression deck though!


yeh poor spelling for example


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Vampire Castle Hack Rent


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

anne rice's interview with the guardian


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> anne rice's interview with the guardian


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

I was a teenage manarchist


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

An american checks their privilege in london


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

DON'T Give The Manarchist A Cigarette


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

a new statesman for all seasons


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

all the president's people


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Pet Cause Sematary


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2014)

carry on tweeting


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 24, 2014)

.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

We'll tweet again


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 24, 2014)

Nineteen Eighty-Bore


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

A Passage to The Indy


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_cif...._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_Intersectional The King's Men_


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Pilgrim's Progressive Stack


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

The Diary Of A Brobody


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

_To the laptop_


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Three Cis White Male Scum In A Privilege Boat


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

Accidental deletion of a manarchist from my friends list


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 24, 2014)

La Dolce Tweeter


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

Wait till we start on the pictures.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

An inspector calls you out on your white cis scum privilege


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_One Day In The Life Of Some Whiney Cis White Man_


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Atone Menz!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

Anne Rice penned a number of bash worthy erotica novels you heathens


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Of course what about those with really thick hair that's difficult to wash? You bald cunts will never know the tyranny of your hair clogging up the plughole, plugholes designed for bald people
> 
> THIS IS BALD PRIVILEGE


 My partner's first world hair clogs our plughole of struggle, whilst my pristine pate crashes through the intersectionalist dandruff. Ours is a truly multicultural household.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

The night of the long tumblr blog posts


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 24, 2014)

Reservoir Blogs


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_Tibetan Book Of The Dead Blog Links_


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

The Unbearable Lightness of Tweeting


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

the cook, the brief, his wife and her blogger


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

The Internship Potemkin.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

La Dolce Tweeter.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

The Blogger of Suburbia.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

Wilf said:


> La Dolce Tweeter.


Sorry, Buckaroo beat you to it!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

Wilf said:


> The Internship Potemkin.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

Wilf said:


> The Unbearable Slightness of Tweeting



Corrected for you


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Sorry, Buckaroo beat you to it!


 Oh, and I've just seen I liked it.  Plagiarism worthy of Johann Hari himself.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

Walter Tweety

Cisformers Dark of the Moon


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

Large Proud Black Trans Woman's House


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

Casablogger


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Casablogger


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

Seven Gender Neutral Sluts For Seven Polyamorous Allies


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

The Outsider Arts People


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

Laurie, Sam, and Bob Too


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

An Animal of Color and his co-equal friends take Manhatten


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

Meet the Parents not that she needs her paranoid fascist borderline abusive dad's permissison to marry you; you sexist bastard and as for her zombie sheep mom...


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> An Animal of Color and his co-equal friends take Manhatten



Monty Python's life of a gender neutral middle Easterner


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

The Twitter Tea of General Yen.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

Trend it Like Beckham.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 24, 2014)

War and Tweets


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

My name is Flavia Dzodan. Look upon my works ye mighty and despair


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 24, 2014)

Bring me the Head of an Anarcha Feminista


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

Freddie Starr Ate My Blogster.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_Lez: Miserable_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

“Trend unto tweet-star that which is tweet-star's”


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

my hair is very curly when I grow it, but also very thin and 'white'

I used to go to this afro-carribean hairplace to get my braiding done. First time I did that, silence. Thereafter, lively chat. Even unto a lady giving me tips on how to snag a woman. 


I went from 'who the fuck is this twat' to 'poor boy needs a girl' in the space of three visits.


on a side note- those elastic hairbands that say they are non tangle? Lies m8. Proper lies. They tangle.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

Braiding?

The is a stalker haunting me across twitter.


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

In Search Of Most Likes


----------



## rekil (Feb 24, 2014)

TRIGGER ALERT: A Poem (a long one)

Menzdymion


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

_By Whom The bell Is Extolled_


----------



## J Ed (Feb 24, 2014)

The Great Tweet Forward


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 24, 2014)

101 uses for a dead tweet


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 24, 2014)

> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  2h
> People pointed out that from a distance the picture looked a bit like blackface, I said 'oops, sorry' and took it down, and that was it.


----------



## Sue (Feb 24, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Oh, and I've just seen I liked it.  Plagiarism worthy of Johann Hari himself.


 
No, it's not -- you need to up your game.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 24, 2014)

There couldn't_ possibly _be anyone else who personally knows people on both sides of this argument.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 24, 2014)

weepiper said:


> There couldn't_ possibly _be anyone else who personally knows people on both sides of this argument.



Why even post that without bothering to even wink or hint at what the argument is? Passive-agressive navel-gazing at its finest.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 24, 2014)

> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  2h
> I really wish people would stop writing articles telling me I'm stupid for ever taking criticism from women of colour seriously.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 24, 2014)

The39thStep said:


>




More like






and


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

Being called a racist = you _learning _eh laurie. The same way as you berating and chest prodding others is _teaching_. Sickening. Truly. Deeply.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

Meanwhile, in Lewis-HasteleyLand, Helen attempts the world record for most names dropped in single navel-gazing blog post on why being a member of the commentariat is, like, so, so exhausting, or something:

http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/77476314258/tumblr_n1efgmyoPI1rpijql


----------



## weepiper (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Meanwhile, in Lewis-HasteleyLand, Helen attempts the world record for most names dropped in single navel-gazing blog post on why being a member of the commentariat is, like, so, so exhausting, or something:
> 
> http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/77476314258/tumblr_n1efgmyoPI1rpijql



I literally cannot be arsed reading that. I got about two sentences in and my brain just stopped computing.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 24, 2014)

TL;DR


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Meanwhile, in Lewis-HasteleyLand, Helen attempts the world record for most names dropped in single navel-gazing blog post on why being a member of the commentariat is, like, so, so exhausting, or something:
> 
> http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/77476314258/tumblr_n1efgmyoPI1rpijql


That's some pretty shallow shit right there.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Meanwhile, in Lewis-HasteleyLand, Helen attempts the world record for most names dropped in single navel-gazing blog post on why being a member of the commentariat is, like, so, so exhausting, or something:
> 
> http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/77476314258/tumblr_n1efgmyoPI1rpijql



I tried to read it, I really did. Utter guff. Is it supposed to be political in some sense? The final Derren Brown quote (ffs) is quite amusing, given the context...


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Meanwhile, in Lewis-HasteleyLand, Helen attempts the world record for most names dropped in single navel-gazing blog post on why being a member of the commentariat is, like, so, so exhausting, or something:
> 
> http://helenlewiswrites.tumblr.com/private/77476314258/tumblr_n1efgmyoPI1rpijql



From that article:



> David Baddiel’s current stand-up show is ostensibly about fame, and the pain of losing control of your public image. (He notes he is commonly depicted as either a “stereotypical lad” or a “racist caricature of a smug Jew”.)



He wishes. He's best known as being an unfunny prick.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> From that article:
> 
> 
> 
> He wishes. He's best known as being an unfunny prick.


Or that bloke skinner was funnier than. Despite skinner not going to oxbridge. Still, they needed an oxbridge angle to sell it to the BBC.


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Or that bloke skinner was funnier than. Despite skinner not going to oxbridge. Still, they needed an oxbridge angle to sell it to the BBC.



christ, rob newman was funnier than him.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> christ, rob newman was funnier than him.


Double oxbridge BBC _in bonus _on the newman stuff though.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Meanwhile, in Lewis-HasteleyLand, Helen attempts the world record for most names dropped in single navel-gazing blog post on why being a member of the commentariat is, like, so, so exhausting, or something <snip>


Thanks for that link - you've just made Polish grammar look interesting (does not compute).


imposs1904 said:


> christ, rob newman was funnier than him.


Not to mention (call me shallow, if you must) more attractive.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I literally cannot be arsed reading that. I got about two sentences in and my brain just stopped computing.


I'll summarise:



> Andrew O’Hagan’s long, brilliant essay...Julian Assange’s ghostwriter...Dreamworks film...Twitter’s search function...John Banville's The Untouchable: “Diderot said”...what a bizarre funhouse reflection my Twitter presence is...Facebook is hardly better...I’m still performing a gossipy caricature of myself, only this time it’s a version I’m happy for my friend’s mums to see...John Updike was right...“YOU can win the X Factor”...David Baddiel’s current stand-up show...“I’d sooner cut my balls off than Google myself”...like any intoxicant, there’s a comedown...the comments on Mail Online about it were horrendous...Derren Brown...Channel 4 specials...everyone who’s been in Big Brother...White Dee from Benefits Street...as Molly Crabapple writes...Freud called it...this blog puts it...I am not James Delingpole...I am not Suzanne Moore, or Zoe Williams, or Laurie Penny...Tumblr...a bonus gif



HAPPY?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 24, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> christ, rob newman was funnier than him.


Oh by far.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'll summarise:
> 
> 
> 
> HAPPY?


Ecbleedinstatic.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

What was that? You all want to see some of Baddiel's unrecommissioned monologue show _A Stab In The Dark_, also featuring a baby-faced Michael Gove?



(Sadly lacking any Tracey ‘AMATEURS!’ Macleod, though)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 24, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Ecbleedinstatic.


I dobry wieczór, pani


----------



## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I dobry wieczór, pani


Good evening to you an' all.


----------



## chilango (Feb 24, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> christ, rob newman was funnier than him.



Newman was the only one with any talent outta that bunch.

Not the funniest, but clearly the only one giving any thought at all to what they were doing.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 24, 2014)

Sue said:


> No, it's not -- you need to up your game.


This means I'm not going to be taken on at the end of my internship doesn't it?  And to think my pater got your pater out of a few Bullingdon scrapes.


----------



## chilango (Feb 24, 2014)

D'yknow what's great though?

Literally no one has ever, ever, mentioned any of these fucks to me IRL.

No one, ever, not once.

Jack's ads have passed uncommented and barely watched. And that's the height of exposure.

For all the sound and fury these dicks are utterly, utterly, utterly alienated from everyday working class life.

Bluster all you like twitterati, real life is elsewhere.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 25, 2014)

chilango said:


> D'yknow what's great though?
> 
> Literally no one has ever, ever, mentioned any of these fucks to me IRL.
> 
> ...


Shurely, workers by hand or by 140 characters?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

Has Sunny been offered a safe seat or something?




*Sunny Hundal* ‏@*sunny_hundal* 
BBC now reduced to running H.Harman 'paedophile link' non-story to satisfy rightwing press. 'When did you stop beating your wife' journalism

11:57 PM - 24 Feb 2014


----------



## Sue (Feb 25, 2014)

Wilf said:


> This means I'm not going to be taken on at the end of my internship doesn't it?  And to think my pater got your pater out of a few Bullingdon scrapes.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 25, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Has Sunny been offered a safe seat or something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By way of a minor derail, saw Harman on newsnight earlier.  Pretty dreadful interview and equally dreadful response from her.  Why the NCCL had any links of any kind to PIE was something that required a brief explanation of the politics of the time (however fucking wrong it was, regardless).  Neither wanted to get into that.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 25, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/24/rebecca-adlington-nose-shrink

This comment is brilliant, sums up Laurie Penny's article beautifully



> I wouldn't blame you for opting to have rhinoplasty.
> 
> That's all you needed to say. In fact it's too much, you needn't have said anything. Instead you chose to make money out of drawing attention to the woman's nose whilst dressing up your article as some sort of feminist statement. Least said soonest mended, eh?



Half the articles on the Graunid are just Daily Mail celebrity click bait with a word here or there to give a veneer of feminism or whatever to justify the existence of the article in a 'serious' newspaper.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 25, 2014)

> I'm as impressed by the dignified way you put up with the press hounding you over your looks as I am by your stack of swimming medals *and your OBE*



Impressed by an OBE? As in "Officer of the most excellent Order of the British Empire?" 

Wouldn't someone of the radical left, ideologically and morally opposed to imperialism and the racism and oppression inherent to it, be appalled rather than impressed by an OBE?

Tea and sedition.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/24/rebecca-adlington-nose-shrink
> 
> This comment is brilliant, sums up Laurie Penny's article beautifully
> 
> ...




Eye calls it have you cake and eat it. You comment on the story  as it has been reported else where, with a dose of arched eyebrow scoff.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> Impressed by an OBE? As in "Officer of the most excellent Order of the British Empire?"
> 
> Wouldn't someone of the radical left, ideologically and morally opposed to imperialism and the racism and oppression inherent to it, be appalled rather than impressed by an OBE?
> 
> Tea and sedition.





> Sorry, guys, but I'm not going back out there today. Really don't want to be arrested and _deported_ just for journalism.


----------



## rekil (Feb 25, 2014)

Even better.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> Impressed by an OBE? As in "Officer of the most excellent Order of the British Empire?"
> 
> Wouldn't someone of the radical left, ideologically and morally opposed to imperialism and the racism and oppression inherent to it, be appalled rather than impressed by an OBE?
> 
> Tea and sedition.


i'd be impressed if they shoved it up their arse being as it's all spiky


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

never understood the Garter thing. You get enobled so now you have to wear a piece of ladies hosiery under your chainmail?


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> Even better.
> 
> View attachment 49167



Fantastic.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 25, 2014)

Here's Sunny Hundal not looking very bright on Venezuela. https://t.co/y30pnmrVTw


----------



## J Ed (Feb 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Here's Sunny Hundal not looking very bright on Venezuela. https://t.co/y30pnmrVTw



Useful idiot


----------



## caleb (Feb 25, 2014)

Libcom promoting Flavia Dzodan now, lol:

http://libcom.org/library/come-one-come-all-feminist-social-justice-blogging-performance-bloodshed


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2014)

caleb said:


> Libcom promoting Flavia Dzodan now, lol:
> 
> http://libcom.org/library/come-one-come-all-feminist-social-justice-blogging-performance-bloodshed


no surprise that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> Even better.
> 
> View attachment 49167



What a difference 18 months makes.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 25, 2014)

caleb said:


> Libcom promoting Flavia Dzodan now, lol:
> 
> http://libcom.org/library/come-one-come-all-feminist-social-justice-blogging-performance-bloodshed


 
"bloodshed" ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> "bloodshed" ffs.


but are you surprised?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

caleb said:


> Libcom promoting Flavia Dzodan now, lol:
> 
> http://libcom.org/library/come-one-come-all-feminist-social-justice-blogging-performance-bloodshed





> My first concert was an Argentinian pop band which you most likely never heard of.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 25, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but are you surprised?


 
in the great twitter war, the first casualty is the truth


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>




fuck me thats near verbatim a Girder article headline


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> in the great twitter war, the first casualty is the truth


In the Great Twitter War, truth is kneeled down and blindfolded behind the milking sheds having a pistol pressed into the back of its skull


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> in the great twitter war, the first casualty is the truth








"he'll not tweet again"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> fuck me thats near verbatim a Girder article headline


PAGING copliker


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2014)

caleb said:


> Libcom promoting Flavia Dzodan now, lol:
> 
> http://libcom.org/library/come-one-come-all-feminist-social-justice-blogging-performance-bloodshed


That's the piece wherein she doesn't know what performative actually means.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> Even better.
> 
> View attachment 49167


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's the piece wherein she doesn't know what performative actually means.


There you go again, waving your dictionary privilege around like the throbbing blue-veined baton it is


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> in the great twitter war, the first casualty is the *truth*



followed closely by her cousins: Dignity, Self Awareness and Tact


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> followed closely by her cousins: Dignity, Self Awareness and Tact



Truth, Dignity, Self-Awareness and Tact.

For any aspiring member of the commentariat these qualities are as welcome as the Four Horsemen themselves.


----------



## rekil (Feb 25, 2014)

> I suspect he responded personally because when I wrote to him, they weren’t yet as massively famous as they would later become.


So so hip.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm thinking we need a commentariat bingo card.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 25, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> In the Great Twitter War, truth is kneeled down and blindfolded behind the milking sheds having a pistol pressed into the back of its skull


 
don't you mean #skull


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I'm thinking we need a commentariat bingo card.



there is already a good top trumps....


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> don't you mean #skull




He-Mans tweets all end with that


----------



## Wilf (Feb 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> So so hip.


 I'm working on a piece provisionally entitled 'Shangalang-a-liminality: a performative reading of The Bay City Rollers'.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 25, 2014)

... oh, and when I say _entitled_, I'm not making any assumptions...


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> So so hip.




I was into colplay when parachutes was an underground indie runaway success story. I had the first Snow Patrol album before it was (a year later) re-packaged with a new hit single and sold for millions.

I tried to beg a fag off of the bassist from Get Cape, Wear Cape, Fly and he said no so I called him a tight bastard


Can I getta 'hell yeah!'?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 25, 2014)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ibuting-to-head-lice-among-teens-9151317.html


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ibuting-to-head-lice-among-teens-9151317.html




'I' bait

'could being a smug liberal journo contribute to the rocketing suicide rate?' they said never


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 25, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I'm working on a piece provisionally entitled 'Shangalang-a-liminality: a performative reading of The Bay City Rollers'.



IIRC there was a PHD thesis on the sound made by the snare drum, just the snare drum, on Led Zeppelin's 'When The Levee Breaks.'


----------



## Wilf (Feb 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ibuting-to-head-lice-among-teens-9151317.html


 Shurely, 'Techno-Narcissism, Complex Hair and the Threat of the 'Other''.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2014)

I really don't know where to put this cos we don't have a psueds corner threa, but spotted in a 2012 edition of Private Eye (my brothers toilet literature is dire)

'A soup redolent of burnt umber. A great fist of a soup. Dark and bowellish'


----------



## J Ed (Feb 25, 2014)

The woman who started raceplaygate writes in the Graunid? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/25/sex-workers-right-to-refuse


----------



## belboid (Feb 25, 2014)

That's her.  Not a terrible piece, tho the stress placed upon them being 'skilled professionals' as opposed to 'workers with the same rights as anyone else' is a bit crap.

e2a: & I notice her profile includes the line 'The author is writing under a pseudonym' - underneath a photo of herself!)


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The woman who started raceplaygate writes in the Graunid? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/25/sex-workers-right-to-refuse



Any old twat can write for comment is free and stress on the 'free'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> IIRC there was a PHD thesis on the sound made by the snare drum, just the snare drum, on Led Zeppelin's 'When The Levee Breaks.'


and you mention this because you believe the scope of this apocryphal thesis is too narrow?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Any old twat can write for comment is free and stress on the 'free'.


Rusbridger's _digital strategy _writ large!


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 25, 2014)

LOL


----------



## J Ed (Feb 25, 2014)

Ugh. Fucking die you reach around privately educated born to rule fauxcilist Oxbridge cunts and your Venezuelan fash worshipping liberal groupies


----------



## weepiper (Feb 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


> reach around privately educated born to rule fauxcilist Oxbridge cunts


*applauds*


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> LOL



would you really retweet a personal friend describing your own work as "iconic"?


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 25, 2014)

As love detective once said:

'Look at me, buy my shit.'


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> would you really retweet a personal friend describing your own work as "iconic"?


She'll pose in front of her mate's whopping portrait of her so this is nothing.

Meanwhile, some mug paid Crabapple for this awfulness.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 26, 2014)

That doesn't even look like George.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2014)

I hope that drawing is _after_ something - because if it's not it displays a serious misreading of the book. Also, since when did Crapabble join the banderovici?


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Also, since when did Crapabble join the banderovici?


As far as I'm aware, she's been treading a solidly liberal line and her sole (twitter machine) comment on events in Ukraine consists of greeting Tymoshenko's release with a "fuck yeah" of approval. One can extrapolate all sorts of potentially unsound positions from that.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> As far as I'm aware, she's been treading a solidly liberal line and her sole (twitter machine) comment on events in Ukraine consists of greeting Tymoshenko's release with a "fuck yeah" of approval. One can extrapolate all sorts of potentially unsound positions from that.


That book she's illustrating is about anti-Communist ukranian exiles. Perfect timing.


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That book she's illustrating is about anti-Communist ukranian exiles. Perfect timing.


I think it's from 2012. I came across it while looking for something else.

(I got a gag about her being the next Banksy retweeted by her publisher a while ago. #victory #activism)


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think it's from 2012. I came across it while looking for something else.


Ah, so she was in on it from the start!


----------



## JimW (Feb 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> ...
> Meanwhile, some mug paid Crabapple for this awfulness.
> ...


Is he attacking his famous "fascist octopus singing its swansong"?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2014)

JimW said:


> Is he attacking his famous "fascist octopus singing its swansong"?


A sly dig at her comrades writing you think?


----------



## Greebo (Feb 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> That doesn't even look like George.


He looks more like one of my former chemistry teachers - tweed suit and all


----------



## JimW (Feb 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> A sly dig at her comrades writing you think?


That would imply she's read and understood Orwell properly, so we can guess not I reckon.


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

.


JimW said:


> Is he attacking his famous "fascist octopus singing its swansong"?


St.George slaying the soviet dragon or octodragon or something. Geddit?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 26, 2014)

JimW said:


> Is he attacking his famous "fascist octopus singing its swansong"?



_Non, je ne regrette rien. . ._


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

LP gets an article published by Al Jazeera America about rudeness on twitter. Top quote.


> Freedom of speech does not include the right to have everybody pay attention when you’re being a prize prick.


Meanwhile AJ journos are banged up in Egypt. The PD twitter machine feed is full of journos from all over protesting with taped mouths etc. But no #solidarity from Laurie funny enough.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> LP gets an article published by Al Jazeera America about rudeness on twitter. Top quote.
> 
> Meanwhile AJ journos are banged up in Egypt. The PD twitter machine feed is full of journos from all over protesting with taped mouths etc. But no #solidarity from Laurie funny enough.


 
Maybe she's going to go and work in Doha with Flavia


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Maybe she's going to go and work in Doha with Flavia


I'm wary of AJ, but they do some really good stuff.


----------



## belboid (Feb 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> St.George slaying the soviet dragon or octodragon or something. Geddit?


Russia was quite often portrayed as an Octopus spreading its tentacles across neighbouring lands, in the late 19th century


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

The point is that Orwell was correct when he said that the octopus metaphor is a cliche that needs to be consigned to where else but the dustbin of history.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 26, 2014)

the octopus metaphor is often well dodgy. sorry.


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> the octopus metaphor is often well dodgy. sorry.


None more dodgy than the mimic octopus.



Spoiler


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> That doesn't even look like George.



Looks like Stanley Baxter!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> That doesn't even look like George.




he's not even got a shitty roll-up


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 26, 2014)

Good lord. Make it stop.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 26, 2014)

she needs to check her _monetizing the corpses of women of color_ priv.


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

Dead hotties only. NO MINGERS.


----------



## Bun (Feb 26, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> she needs to check her _monetizing the corpses of women of color_ priv.


That house in the Hamptons won't buy itself.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> Dead hotties only. NO MINGERS.



What about those whose looks, as judged by Molly, fall somewhere in between HOT! and MINGER? Would this include or exclude Rosa for example?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 26, 2014)

Rosa has certainly got summat about her in that pic, I reckon she would be quite dirty


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2014)

What next, the beauty regime of a revolutionary? Hairstyles for a revolutionary?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 26, 2014)

Next week in the New Statesman - how to do your nails like a glamorous Ukrainian right-wing paramilitary!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 26, 2014)

No place for louise michel in Molly's book  






(yeah yeah she didn't actually die in the commune but she's definitely dead now so it counts)


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 26, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Good lord. Make it stop.




What would Jimmy Savile have said?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Next week in the New Statesman - how to do your nails like a glamorous Ukrainian right-wing paramilitary!


How to make shampoo from woodash - new quicker recipe!


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 26, 2014)

I read that as woodlice. Making shampoo from woodlice would be interesting but probably speciesist and not suitable for vegan spaces


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> the octopus metaphor is often well dodgy. sorry.



Just so long as you don't mention squid.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm also waiting for Crabapple to tweet 'ten top tips to avoid chipping your nails whilst fighting the fash'.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 26, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'm also waiting for Crabapple to tweet 'ten top tips to avoid chipping your nails whilst fighting the fash'.



Shouldn't that be whilst respecting the fash's autonomy and agency?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2014)

My bad


----------



## tim (Feb 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What would Jimmy Savile have said?



That he could fix it for her


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 26, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Shouldn't that be whilst respecting the fash's autonomy and agency?



I'm still waiting for that intersectional analysis of Ukraine


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2014)

We'll need to make a priv-off card for at least one of the Ukraine nazi bigwigs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2014)

i was looking at klitchko the other day thinking 'aren't you supposed to be an actual giant?' but it turns out I was looking at the wrong kiltch.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 26, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'm also waiting for Crabapple to tweet 'ten top tips to avoid chipping your nails whilst fighting the fash'.



We put the 'fash' in fashionista


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> i was looking at klitchko the other day thinking 'aren't you supposed to be an actual giant?' but it turns out I was looking at the wrong kiltch.



Vitali is 6'7" and Wladimir is 6'6", so they are both pretty tall. Valuev was the real giant.


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2014)

The Occupy Wall Street imbecile is on form.

http://storify.com/JustineTunney/te...=&awesm=sfy.co_cb3G&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> The Occupy Wall Street imbecile is on form.
> 
> http://storify.com/JustineTunney/te...=&awesm=sfy.co_cb3G&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter





> If you want progress, stand with the _true progressives_, which are tech workers.



Amazeballs


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2014)

I couldn't just pick one or two examples, they're all smash hits.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 27, 2014)




----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

> When protesters hurled a brick at a Google Bus back in December, it was the shot heard around the world.



deffo the best one imo


----------



## J Ed (Feb 27, 2014)

Punch a google glass wearer in the face


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Punch a google glass wearer in the face


It's happening.



> Slocum (google glass rage victim) herself has called the incident a hate crime, regardless of the fact that the legal definition of a hate crime does not mention Google Glass wearer or tech worker.



Laurie says she's going over to do a piece on San Francisco. These will be the kind of pricks she'll be hanging around with.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Punch a google glass wearer in the face



"We have the technology, we can rebuild you".


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

'only shitter'


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's happening.



'Glasshole.'


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> deffo the best one imo








'Three weeks from now, I will be mercilessly cashing in on other people's genuine principles. Imagine where you will be, and it will be so. Hold the party line! Stay with me! If you find yourself on Twitter, tweeting insults and smears at anyone who dares to disagree with you or point out your unprincipled, narcissistic hypocrisy, do not be troubled. For you are one of the Twatterati, and you're already a pointless waste of time, space and oxygen!'

Brothers, what we do in life... echoes in eternity.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> 'Three weeks from now, I will be mercilessly cashing in on other people's genuine principles. Imagine where you will be, and it will be so. Hold the party line! Stay with me! If you find yourself on Twitter, tweeting insults and smears at anyone who dares to disagree with you or point out your unprincipled, narcissistic hypocrisy, do not be troubled. For you are one of the Twatterati, and you're already a pointless waste of time, space and oxygen!'
> 
> Brothers, what we do in life... echoes in eternity.




or in your browser history


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> or in your browser history



The browser history is the TRUE window to the soul...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Punch a google glass wearer in the face



Der Googlekristallnacht


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Punch a google glass wearer in the face


why stop there?


----------



## Greebo (Feb 27, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> The browser history is the TRUE window to the soul...


Mine is constantly gleaming then, given how often it gets wiped.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 27, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Mine is constantly gleaming then, given how often it gets wiped.



You like giving it a daily polish, then?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's happening.
> .


It's true - 150 years ago people were being beaten up in pubs for those fancy fob watches. 
Hate Crime Through the Centuries #1 in a short series.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 27, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> You like giving it a daily polish, then?



COMING OVER HERE, STEALING OUR INTERNET SEARCHES...


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

roasting and eating angry birds which belong TO THE QUEEN


----------



## Wilf (Feb 27, 2014)

Googlebussers - the _true_ freedom riderz.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie says she's going over to do a piece on San Francisco. These will be the kind of pricks she'll be hanging around with.



Don't dwell on the negative - just think fearless alternohack plus corporate charter coach/river taxi plus RPG.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 27, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Don't dwell on the negative - just think fearless alternohack plus corporate charter coach/river taxi plus RPG.


 The Borg in a minibus.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 27, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Don't dwell on the negative - just think fearless alternohack plus corporate charter coach/river taxi plus RPG.



Thereby removing the corporate charter and making a significant contribution to depopulating the world's wanker quota:


----------



## J Ed (Feb 27, 2014)




----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 27, 2014)

Like taking candy from a fish, or shooting babies in a barrel.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

Our Lady of Corby (ex) proves once more that she's a fuckin idiot.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

there's an intersectionalist battle going on on my facebook news feed but i feel a bit bad posting it here because i'm mates with one of the participants. her profile has has gone a bit  recently though


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's an intersectionalist battle going on on my facebook news feed but i feel a bit bad posting it here because i'm mates with one of the participants. her profile has has gone a bit  recently though


pls quantify their privilege


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

In the game of privs, you win or die


----------



## J Ed (Feb 27, 2014)

Iconic


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Iconic



That's just asking for a photoshop.

Instead of 'Unspeakable things' it needs to be 'Why we can't have nice things'

And instead of:

Sex
lies
and
revolution

it should be:

like
a
relolution

(edit: that should be revolution at the end but I'm not changing it cos I just accidentally invented the word relolution, which is the kind of revolution people like laurie, who are impossible to take seriously and inspire more lols among the ruling class than they do fear, would like to see. or something)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Iconic


according to amazon it's sex lies and mutiny. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unspeakable...9705&sr=8-1&keywords=laurie+penny+unspeakable


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 27, 2014)

On my Facebook one friend has posted a lee rigby string em up post, another a post approving of a child molester (although the molester is a female teacher and the child a teenage boy).


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> On my Facebook one friend has posted a lee rigby string em up post, another a post approving of a child molester (although the molester is a female teacher and the child a teenage boy).


that's it. that's going to be the basis of laurie penny's next article.


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2014)

.


J Ed said:


> Iconic










> This is a book about speech and the silencing of speech; about who gets to speak and who does not; about who is listened to and who is ignored. In this down-to-earth analysis of the democratic principle of freedom of speech, Betty McLellan insists that, if this prized democratic principle is to have any continuing credibility, free speech must be free for all.
> 
> Written from the perspective of feminist ethics, Unspeakable focuses on how women are silenced in every nation on earth: through violence, subordination and exclusion. The author's hope is that radical feminism will continue to be a “feminism of dissent” and that radical, political feminists will continue speaking against the silence.


I wonder if the similarities stop at the title.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you don't suspect that laurie penny might be the feminist equivalent of johann hari, the renowned plagiarist?


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't suspect that laurie penny might be the feminist equivalent of johann hari, the renowned plagiarist?


It could easily just be laziness or a lack of imagination at play here, but given her well documented propensity to make shit up and lie, compounded by a somewhat prurient pursuit of approval and fame, who knows.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


>


----------



## J Ed (Feb 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't suspect that laurie penny might be the feminist equivalent of johann hari, the renowned plagiarist?



No, he was a much better writer


----------



## BigTom (Feb 27, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's just asking for a photoshop.
> 
> Instead of 'Unspeakable things' it needs to be 'Why we can't have nice things'
> 
> ...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 27, 2014)

BigTom said:


>


 I love you!


----------



## twelveweeks (Feb 27, 2014)




----------



## MAD-T-REX (Feb 27, 2014)

Sex, lies and revolution? Hasn't everyone learned yet that anyone who claims to have an informed opinion on everything is a complete bullshitter?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 28, 2014)

similar, no?


----------



## twelveweeks (Feb 28, 2014)

You think that's bad, just look at how lazy Penguin published authors can be.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 1, 2014)

http://yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com/

*punches self in face*


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 1, 2014)

Another chance to write about a country she knows nothing about.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Another chance to write about a country she knows nothing about.



Another chance to get other people to help her with her homework too.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Another chance to get other people to help her with her homework too.


_English-speaking_ pro-choice activists, who_ happen to follow_ La Plagiarisaria on Twitter!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _English-speaking_ pro-choice activists, who_ happen to follow_ La Plagiarisaria on Twitter!


Unless she's fluent in Spanish, but I think she'd have said so if she was...

She should check her languages priv.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Unless she's fluent in Spanish, but I think she'd have said so if she was...



Well, who are we to say that she doesn't hide her talents away out of modesty? Would explain why we see so little of them!


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Well, who are we to say that she doesn't hide her talents away out of modesty? Would explain why we see so little of them!



Penny Dreadful's an immensely modest person.

With a great deal to be immensely modest about.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Penny Dreadful's an immensely modest person.
> 
> With a great deal to be immensely modest about.


 
If I was your husband I'd drink it.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If I was your husband I'd drink it.


That doesn't even make any sense


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That doesn't even make any sense


 
It's an allusion dear.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 1, 2014)

Damarr said:


> Sex, lies and revolution? Hasn't everyone learned yet that anyone who claims to have an informed opinion on everything is a complete bullshitter?



i know i am.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's an allusion dear.


it reads like you've a dictionary of churchill quotes and you're randomly posting them like a 'loon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i know i am.


everyone knows you are


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it reads like you've a dictionary of churchill quotes and you're randomly posting them like a 'loon.



isn't that normal behaviour.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it reads like you've a dictionary of churchill quotes and you're randomly posting them like a 'loon.


 
But in the morning, I will be sober.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> everyone knows you are



"it takes one to know one" - Winston Churchill.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But in the morning, I will be sober.


and in the afternoon you'll be drunk again.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> "it takes one to know one" - Winston Churchill.


 
But it may be the end of the beginning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> isn't that normal behaviour.


it is. for a 'loon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But it may be the end of the beginning.


and the beginning of the boring.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and in the afternoon you'll be drunk again.


 
We may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> We may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing.


only then it turns into a long-drawn-out three week drunk throughout which you post here.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> only then it turns into a long-drawn-out three week drunk throughout which you post here.


 
If you're going through hell, keep going.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If you're going through hell, keep going.


please do. another 3,000 miles south east should do it.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> please do. another 3,000 miles south east should do it.


 
An iron curtain had descended across this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> An iron curtain had descended across this thread.


do some kruschev ones now


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> do some kruschev ones now


 
We will bury you [_bangs shoe on keyboard_].


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> We will bore you [_bangs shoe on keyboard_].


that's more like it


----------



## benedict (Mar 1, 2014)

Says it all.



> *ABOUT LAURIE PENNY*
> Laurie Penny was born in a skip in Islington in 1986 and grew up wild in the back-alleys of London’s bourgeois ghetto, surviving only on mouldy paninis and half-eaten pots of hummous fished out of bins and sleeping in rolled-up copies of The Observer Review. After a dispute with a notorious urban fox gang, she fled to Brighton Beach, and was taken in by a radical seagull collective and weaned on mulched-up, regurgitated back-issues of Spare Rib and Red Rag. Eventually she was offered a scholarship to Brighton College Sixth Form, where she edited a student newspaper and never learned to wear a tie. She went to Wadham College, Oxford, and later moved back to London to work in a shop in Camden Market, where being a scuzzy, mohawked Brighton feminist was part of the job description. It didn’t stick, and she rapidly turned to a life of journalism, having discovered that she was unsuited to any other employment by virtue of being weird and difficult. Now she has long hair, a semi-regular income, and zooms around trying to put the world to rights. She can still talk to seagulls.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 1, 2014)

benedict said:


> Says it all.



Odd, no mention of her parents successful legal practice or that she had been at Brighton College for five fee-paying years before winning the scholarship for the Sixth form.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's an allusion dear.


FUCK OFF DWYER YOU PATRONISING TWAT.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> We will bury you [_bangs shoe on keyboard_].


You can do slightly better than a performing poodle.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If I was your husband I'd drink it.


And if you were mine, I'd be sufficiently spiteful to keep whatever you wanted to drink (including poison) well out of reach.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> FUCK OFF DWYER YOU PATRONISING TWAT.



I'm sorry but your historical illiteracy deserves no better quite frankly.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> And if you were mine, I'd be sufficiently spiteful to keep whatever you wanted to drink (including poison) well out of reach.



I have a long reach.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I have a long reach.


Not as long as it'd need to be.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 1, 2014)

Oh man.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 1, 2014)

Describing people's views of conflicts in which the US is heavily involved as being 'Orientalist' for recognising US involvement (Venezuela is the 'Orient' now?) while viewing them through the perspective of a subculture of a subculture critiquing another subculture of a subculture. Welcome to the American 'left' in 2014.

No wonder the US army allowed her into Gitmo to do some sketches. Braindead idiot.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 1, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Describing people's views of conflicts in which the US is heavily involved as being 'Orientalist' for recognising US involvement (Venezuela is the 'Orient' now?) while viewing them through the perspective of a subculture of a subculture critiquing another subculture of a subculture. Welcome to the American 'left' in 2014.



I had to shake my head at the stupidity. I don't think she really understands the term.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 1, 2014)

Won't somebody please think of all the independent hot Right Sector chicks out there monetising their fascism that don't need no America?!


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 1, 2014)

It's also bollocks: of course people in their own countries can organise and protest but the sphere of U.S. influence is often too high to ignore. Especially in South and Central America. Look at Honduras in 2009 or Venezuela today.

Then again, I'd be suspicious of anyone who brags about the money they made off the Occupy movement.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 1, 2014)

I'm struggling to see what context orientalism is used in by musselpear


----------



## Sue (Mar 2, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Odd, no mention of her parents successful legal practice or that she had been at Brighton College for five fee-paying years before winning the scholarship for the Sixth form.


That whole blurb is utterly detestable without even taking your points into account.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm sorry but your historical illiteracy deserves no better quite frankly.


You're an arsehole who contributes little to this community. Fuck knows why you're still on here to be honest.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Oh man.




I'm not sure that Molly has quite grasped the ideas behind "Orientalism".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Describing people's views of conflicts in which the US is heavily involved as being 'Orientalist' for recognising US involvement (Venezuela is the 'Orient' now?) while viewing them through the perspective of a subculture of a subculture critiquing another subculture of a subculture. Welcome to the American 'left' in 2014.
> 
> No wonder the US army allowed her into Gitmo to do some sketches. Braindead idiot.



She appears to be conflating the idea of a looking down on "alien" cultures inherent to much of "the west" with military oppression.

I wonder if she's syphilitic?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You're an arsehole who contributes little to this community. Fuck knows why you're still on here to be honest.



Because he believes that he contributes something.


Which he does.  Apparently, he's helped a handful of Urban's many insomniacs fall asleep, through the medium of reading his posts.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You're an arsehole who contributes little to this community. Fuck knows why you're still on here to be honest.



Your failure to contain your rage refutes you a priori I fear.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 2, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Not as long as it'd need to be.



I'll be the judge of that.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> She appears to be conflating the idea of a looking down on "alien" cultures inherent to much of "the west" with military oppression.
> 
> I wonder if she's syphilitic?


Probably not. Just misinformed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

Greebo said:


> You can do slightly better than a performing poodle.


are you sure?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Your failure to contain your rage refutes you a priori I fear.


your failure to demonstrate anything other than your visceral need to piss people off undermines your claim about equationgirl's failure to contain her rage


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> your failure to demonstrate anything other than your visceral need to piss people off undermines your claim about equationgirl's failure to contain her rage


Rage is perhaps a little strong, Senior Librarian Model, but I was definitely pissed off at him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Rage is perhaps a little strong, Senior Librarian Model, but I was definitely pissed off at him.


but why would you restrain your pissed offness or rage when dwyer's such a miserable little worm?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but why would you restrain your pissed offness or rage when dwyer's such a miserable little worm?


Dwyer wouldn't know rage until it smacked him in the face, an event I suspect happens far too infrequently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Dwyer wouldn't know rage until it smacked him in the face, an event I suspect happens far too infrequently.


or until it stomped his nematode form into a mush


----------



## agricola (Mar 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure that Molly has quite grasped the ideas behind "Orientalism".



I would wager that she has monetized it, though.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> or until it stomped his nematode form into a mush


I see him more like this:


Where did I put the salt again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I see him more like this:
> View attachment 49387
> 
> Where did I put the salt again?


i see him more like this:


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i see him more like this:



Is that something that got thrown up?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is that something that got thrown up?


it's something that got stomped on


----------



## Greebo (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> are you sure?


It's a paradigm shift which I prefer for the time being.  How long that may be is anyone's guess.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> your failure to demonstrate anything other than your visceral need to piss people off undermines your claim about equationgirl's failure to contain her rage



Hang on Pickers, we had a non-aggression pact.  Greebo was witness. Can you really be so lacking in chivalry?


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 2, 2014)

Greebo said:


> It's a paradigm shift which I prefer for the time being.  How long that may be is anyone's guess.



My faith has been disgracefully betrayed now though.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Rage is perhaps a little strong, Senior Librarian Model, but I was definitely pissed off at him.



No you weren't.  The truth is that you were annoyed with yourself--and with good reason--for making such a silly blunder.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model I hate to admit it, but Dwyer's got a point about both of you having agreed to bury the hatchet.


phildwyer said:


> My faith has been disgracefully betrayed now though.


You'll survive the disappointment, most of us do...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Hang on Pickers, we had a non-aggression pact.  Greebo was witness. Can you really be so lacking in chivalry?


l suppose your contretemps with equationgirl is you showing your chivalry


----------



## Greebo (Mar 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> l suppose your contretemps with equationgirl is you showing your chivalry


I suppose it depends on how you define chivalry.  Come to think of it, being so patronising to equationgirl was initially unprovoked.  IMHO neither equationgirl nor Dwyer are entirely in the right, nor in the wrong.  A pity when both of them are capable of better than this.

There are bigger enemies and far more urgent problems outside urban, perhaps change might become reality slightly sooner if the bickering (fun as it is) stopped.  Or at least eased up.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No you weren't.  The truth is that you were annoyed with yourself--and with good reason--for making such a silly blunder.


I think I know who I'm annoyed at, thank you very much.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think I know who I'm annoyed at, thank you very much.



And you have every right to be annoyed at him.  I'm annoyed at him too.  But we should all learn to control our tempers better, especially you if I may say so.


----------



## Santino (Mar 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And you have every right to be annoyed at him.  I'm annoyed at him too.  But we should all learn to control our tempers better, especially you if I may say so.


Why are you such a cunt?


----------



## Greebo (Mar 2, 2014)

Santino said:


> Why are you such a cunt?


I thought you were better at reading between the lines.  Dwyer is annoyed with himself


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 3, 2014)

Santino said:


> Why are you such a cunt?



I think the word for you is "twerp."

You are a twerp.  I'd never met a twerp before you came along.  I should be grateful.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Mar 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is that something that got thrown up?



People: get a grip.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> People: get a grip.


I think you'll find they already have.  That's the trouble with posting between time zones.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 3, 2014)

agricola said:


> I would wager that she has monetized it, though.



Some how the idea of Crabapple monetising Orientalism sees me imagining her in a mink fedora, pimping girls from the "Far East".

Probably says more about me than her, frankly.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 3, 2014)

It gets worserer:



> If you associate with a lot of anarchists, squatters or people under the age of 25, you will probably know that “ACAB” stands for “All Cops Are Bastards”. Whether or not you agree with the statement, it is hard to disagree that relations between civilians and the police, always a better barometer of the public mood than any poll, are not friendly.


It's not cops, it's coppers, and all those old blokes with it - they ain't anarchist or squatters.

Note also the equivocation.


----------



## rekil (Mar 3, 2014)

> Occupy co-creator Micah White has been tapped to enter Google's Glass Explorer Program, an invite-only program that puts Glass into the hands of "bold, creative individuals who want to help shape the future."
> 
> Glass is a potential force multiplier—like barricades in 1848 and general assemblies in 2011—and Micah will be the first professional activist to put this technology toward the people's struggle.  What are the applications of Glass for revolution?  How can Glass facilitate the people's experiment in global self-governance?  Let's find out.





> Airfare for two to San Francisco for Glass Basecamp - $600.00
> 
> Send Micah and Chiara to Glass Basecamp! Google's Glass Guides will take them through a personalized 1:1 fitting experience. They will also have a chance to meet other Explorers and chat with members of the team. Google recommends allotting 30 - 45 minutes for the full fitting experience.


This is getting fucking weird.

http://micahmwhite.com/mission-glass


----------



## rekil (Mar 3, 2014)

> You are buying Micah White and Boutique Activist Consultancy one Google Glass. This technology will be used to create new kinds of revolutionary activism.


$1500? 

lol


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 3, 2014)

surely a wind up?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 3, 2014)

Boutique Activist Consultancy certainly SOUNDS like something a wit might make to mock, but its so hard to tell anymore


----------



## rekil (Mar 3, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> surely a wind up?


Double checked. It's 4 real. He's going to get beaten up one of these days.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Boutique Activist Consultancy certainly SOUNDS like something a wit might make to mock, but its so hard to tell anymore


surely it would be boutique activist consultancy international or baci for short.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It gets worserer:
> 
> 
> It's not cops, it's coppers, and all those old blokes with it - they ain't anarchist or squatters.
> ...


anyone who says 'civilians' in that context really means 'the great unwashed and unarmed', i.e. 'sheep'.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> This is getting fucking weird.
> 
> http://micahmwhite.com/mission-glass


Someone that goes to uni in Switzerland can probably afford to pay for their spouse's airfare to be honest. What's a professional activist anyway?


----------



## rekil (Mar 3, 2014)

Laurie invented ACAB actually.


equationgirl said:


> What's a professional activist anyway?


Someone who gets paid to talk about activism which consists of being paid to talk about activism.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie invented ACAB actually.
> 
> Someone who gets paid to talk about activism which consists of being paid to talk about activism.



Did you see the workshop they're doing soon? 200 USD for something that looks like talking about talking for 3 and a half hours. But it's ok, you get lunch and a gift...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie invented ACAB actually.
> 
> Someone who gets paid to talk about activism which consists of being paid to talk about activism.



Surely a "professional activist" is someone who has monetised both their activism and "the struggle"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Did you see the workshop they're doing soon? 200 USD for something that looks like talking about talking for 3 and a half hours. But it's ok, you get lunch and a gift...




...and hopefully, some other mug to pay for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Someone that goes to uni in Switzerland can probably afford to pay for their spouse's airfare to be honest. What's a professional activist anyway?


like a professional revolutionary only less efficient


----------



## andysays (Mar 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely a "professional activist" is someone who has monetised both their activism and "the struggle"?



Even the #leaderless revolt needs leaders


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 3, 2014)

"Water cannon are the sexy designer underwear of the modern police arsenal. It’s not whether you do anything with them that counts, but the way they make you feel. If you’re packing that sort of specialist gear, you feel cheeky and confident and just a little bit daring, and yes, it’s pretty expensive for something you’ll probably never use, though you secretly hope that some day you might get the chance. It’s even better if you make people know you’ve got them – for example, if you hold a high-profile public consultation about the brutal anti-riot kit you’re about to buy."

http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/02...scontented-get-water-cannon-or-rubber-bullets


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 3, 2014)

rubber bullets for the ladies


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> surely a wind up?



Of course it is: "regards from the people's coast"  is the giveaway.


----------



## rekil (Mar 4, 2014)

His whole CV is a wind-up.


> Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher,  ABC TV  - Special Teen Guest


He's living Malcolm Harris's dream tbf.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> He's living Malcolm Harris's dream tbf.



Speaking of which, I see there's a SPAD position just opened up at No.10 which might suit his particular skillsets and enthusiasms.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2014)

caleb said:


> Libcom promoting Flavia Dzodan now, lol:
> 
> http://libcom.org/library/come-one-come-all-feminist-social-justice-blogging-performance-bloodshed


They're now hosting padeo-anarchist John Henry Mackay material after making a huge fuss about not stocking Hakim-Bey material because he's a paedo.


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

Laurie and Novara fall for conspiraloon Abby Martin's ruse. Y u no google before twittering shit.


----------



## cesare (Mar 5, 2014)

Isn't Abby Martin that presenter for RT that Casually Red luuuuuuurves?


----------



## twelveweeks (Mar 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> They're now hosting padeo-anarchist John Henry Mackay material after making a huge fuss about not stocking Hakim-Bey material because he's a paedo.


It's quite easy for anyone to submit content to libcom, and it's only been up since this morning. You could notify the admins about it if you are unhappy with this material being hosted.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2014)

Yep.


----------



## cesare (Mar 5, 2014)

Haha


----------



## Balbi (Mar 5, 2014)

No need. I googled. Fucking hell.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 5, 2014)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

Heyyouguys! I can laugh at myself, see, HA! HA! HA!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2014)

Private Eye satirical diary about me this week is actually pretty funny. When the revolution comes, Craig Brown's death will be merciful.
— Laurie Penny (@PennyRed) March 5, 2014

That's not up to you to decide shared background.


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

Cracking bit of self-orbiting and deranged liberalism from Mona Eltahawy. ‏


> Recently, pics/news of activists/journalists whose arms police hv broken in Ukraine,Venezuela,Egypt has triggered my trauma over my assault.
> 
> Unending support to all acivists/journalists who stand up vs bastard police everywhere.I'm still struggling w my PTSD & try 2 avoid triggers


Everywhere? All the time? No matter what the "activists" politics and aims are eh?


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

The German activists here are rocking the wolfsangel insignia. (ff to 2:20)

I'm sure this has featured here before but Trigger Alert! The coppers get rough.



Spoiler


----------



## belboid (Mar 5, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

How come it's ok for Laurie to issue death threats? 

Not just any old death threats, death threats against private school knobs.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 5, 2014)

LOL, that Private Eye spoof is rather accurate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> How come it's ok for Laurie to issue death threats?
> 
> Not just any old death threats, death threats against private school knobs.



Don't think of them as ‘death threats’, think of them as soggy-biscuits-with-extreme-prejudice.


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> LOL, that Private Eye spoof is rather accurate.


Nah, even putting aside implacable hatred for etonians for a sec, it's shit. She's not sweary for a start. She talks and writes like an enid blyton character.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> Nah, even putting aside implacable hatred for etonians for a sec, it's shit. She's not sweary for a start. She talks and writes like an enid blyton character.


you've not seen the adult fiction blyton wrote then


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you've not seen the adult fiction blyton wrote then


Mr.Galliano's Circus?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> Mr.Galliano's Circus?


she didn't write it under the name enid blyton  she wrote it under the name kendal grahame


----------



## Balbi (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> How come it's ok for Laurie to issue death threats?
> 
> Not just any old death threats, death threats against private school knobs.



Eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> How come it's ok for Laurie to issue death threats?
> 
> Not just any old death threats, death threats against private school knobs.


d'you mean knobs or nobs?


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Eh?






			
				LP said:
			
		

> When the revolution comes, Craig Brown's death will be merciful.


Sick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2014)

what's craig brown ever done to laurie penny?


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> d'you mean knobs or nobs?


Knobs, nobs and nabobs.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> How come it's ok for Laurie to issue death threats?
> 
> Not just any old death threats, death threats against private school knobs.



Class solidarity overcomes all


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> Knobs, nobs and nabobs.



My knob (penis) is the nabob (ruler) of nobs (posh people).


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2014)

We got there in the end.


----------



## Sue (Mar 5, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what's craig brown ever done to laurie penny?


 
Maybe she's a Scotland fan..?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> My knob (penis) is the nabob (ruler) of nobs (posh people).



But is it a nattering nabob of negativism?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> We got there in the end.



The end of my knob.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> But is it a nattering nabob of negativism?



Thankfully not.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Intersectionality tsunami hits Sci-fi? The most quoted reason for Ross not hosting that i've seen is because - and i quote "A white man famous for humour denigrating women? I'm the opposite of excited". Regardless of whether he was the right choice for that crowd, are we now back where being skin colour and gender are good enough reasons for debarring someone  - and also having these rather reactionary views is seen as a sign of progressive politics?


----------



## articul8 (Mar 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what's craig brown ever done to laurie penny?


 whatcha go and have to post a picture of that eejit for?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2014)

articul8 said:


> whatcha go and have to post a picture of that eejit for?


it is always a joy to read your incisive critiques.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Intersectionality tsunami hits Sci-fi? The most quoted reason for Ross not hosting that i've seen is because - and i quote "A white man famous for humour denigrating women? I'm the opposite of excited". Regardless of whether he was the right choice for that crowd, are we now back where being skin colour and gender are good enough reasons for debarring someone  - and also having these rather reactionary views is seen as a sign of progressive politics?



There's a big thread on this on the Charlie Stross blog (link to follow) and I think it's a bit more complicated than that. SF fandom appears to be trying to 'clean house' where inappropriate behaviour is concerned (behaviour like that of the superannuated 60s author who thinks he can grope anyone female, for example).

They also seem to have formed the impression that Ross (who apparently is a genuine sci-fi fan) is the type whose humour tends to involve the personalised attack that would be taken for bullying in other contexts. As I only know Ross from his chat show host persona I've no idea if that's true or not. My guess, though, is that they may have overreacted, but it's a bit more to it than just eejits thinking that barring people on skin colour and gender makes them progressive heroes.

Judging by the comments on CS' blog post, there are still some seriously moronic people in that subculture:

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2014/03/the-latest-hugo-awards-storm.html

Splundig Vur Thrigg.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm sure that you're right it's more complicated than that idris, id be very surprised if it wasn't - but i tried to sidestep that complication by focusing on the white man shit posted by someone (who it turns out is pretty central to this and well into intersectionalism) rather than the internal dynamics of that scene. Making it about how someone post that sees themselves as a progressive type rather than a sf fan type. What's your mucker MacLeod said or is he well out of this stuff? Though i note he's been on the laurie networking course.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm sure that you're right it's more complicated than that idris, id be very surprised if it wasn't - but i tried to sidestep that complication by focusing on the white man shit posted by someone (who it turns out is pretty central to this and well into intersectionalism) rather than the internal dynamics of that scene. Making it about how someone post that sees themselves as a progressive type rather than a sf fan type. What's your mucker MacLeod said or is he well out of this stuff?



Obviously I didn't bother to actually read your link.

I've only met MacLeod the once, but as far as I know he is steering well clear. In one of his books about the global revolution of 2045 there's a line about student politicoes making mistakes that were antique when he was a lad.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Obviously I didn't bother to actually read your link.
> 
> I've only MacLeod the once, but as far as I know he is steering well clear. In one of his books about the global revolution of 2045 there's a line about student politicoes making mistakes that were antique when he was a lad.


I'm reading the the second part of the Fall Revolution series right now. Did not like part one, but glad i stuck with it all the doubling back and mirroring stuff and nuggets dropped is now coming to life.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm reading the the second part of the Fall Revolution series right now. Did not like part one, but glad i stuck with it all the doubling back and mirroring stuff and nuggets dropped is now coming to life.





Spoiler



Were your parents killed in the war? No, it was afterwards, in the peace process.



You'd probably dig _The Restoration Game _as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got them all downloaded and waiting to go. I find it very hard to read fiction though.

On the spoiler, there's a number of great lines in that first one - the one about there not being enough violence on tv was very good.


----------



## belboid (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Intersectionality tsunami hits Sci-fi? The most quoted reason for Ross not hosting that i've seen is because - and i quote "A white man famous for humour denigrating women? I'm the opposite of excited". Regardless of whether he was the right choice for that crowd, are we now back where being skin colour and gender are good enough reasons for debarring someone  - and also having these rather reactionary views is seen as a sign of progressive politics?


oh come on butch, thats just the line you've seen quoted most often, it doesnt mean its the one most SF fans hold, its just the one that the papers know looks good.  Most of the reasons are around either his general oafishness (fair enough to an extent) or the fact that he isnt 'real' sci fi (which is just wrong) The NS article is actually pretty reasonable on the whole affair


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

belboid said:


> oh come on butch, thats just the line you've seen quoted most often, it doesnt mean its the one most SF fans hold, its just the one that the papers know looks good.  Most of the reasons are around either his general oafishness (fair enough to an extent) or the fact that he isnt 'real' sci fi (which is just wrong) The NS article is actually pretty reasonable on the whole affair


As i said, i'm not making a point about SF  -about which i could not care less frankly - but about the use of arguments such as these by people who see themselves as progressive and on the left.

And what's this 'cleaning house' stuff Idris?



> The problem I see is that while fandom is in the process of cleaning house, inviting him — or anyone with a controversial media profile — to be Hugo toastmaster is like rolling out a welcome mat at the Worldcon front door that says "muck-rakers welcome". There's a lot of muck to be raked, even before we get into Daily Mail photographers stalking cosplayers: just look at the recent SFWA fracas (plural), the Jim Frenkel/harassment scandal at Tor, and so on.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Got them all downloaded and waiting to go. I find it very hard to read fiction though.
> 
> On the spoiler, there's a number of great lines in that first one - the one about there not being enough violence on tv was very good.



You'll have got to the bit that mentions Ukraine, I suppose?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> As i said, i'm not making a point about SF  -about which i could not care less frankly - but about the use of arguments such as these by people who see themselves as progressive and on the left.
> 
> And what's this 'cleaning house' stuff Idris?



They're trying to make their subculture a space where it's less acceptable to be a dick.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You'll have got to the bit that mentions Ukraine, I suppose?


As of yet the only ref i've reached is:

"Forget it," Wilde said. "You're fighting no battles for me."
"Battles . . ." Tamara sat up straight. "You said there might be big trou-
ble. I can tell the comrades to get ready. In Circle Square we've got a few
good fighters, and people who've studied all the great anarchist battles—
Paris, Kronstadt, Ukraine, Barcelona, Seoul, Norlonto . . ."
"Yeah, right," said Wilde. "Well, I hate to break this to you at such a late
date and all, but there's one vital thing all the great anarchist battles of his-
tory have in common."
"Yes?"
Wilde stood up and got ready to move down to the front row. He grinned
at Tamara's eager inquiry.
"They were all defeats," he said.

Factually wrong btw, plenty of battles won, few wars.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> They're trying to make their subculture a space where it's less acceptable to be a dick.


I know what the term means! I'm just asking after how bad a problem they had/have  - given that there seems (from me googling it and knowing fuck all about it an hour ago) to be an across the board commitment to do something about it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I know what the term means! I'm just asking after how bad a problem they had/have  - given that there seems (from me googling it and knowing fuck all about it an hour ago) to be an across the board commitment to do something about it.



I'd say they probably have a worse problem than you'd think, given that their subculture tends to attract undersocialised types. Also they only just seem to be waking up to the fact.

E2A:

They're thinking of stuff like this, which is a US incident, though:

http://blog.shrub.com/archives/sigel-phoenix/2006-08-30_375


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I'd say they probably have a worse problem than you'd think, given that their subculture tends to attract undersocialised types. Also they only just seem to be waking up to the fact.
> 
> E2A:
> 
> ...


Cheers, as i say, not my scene, don't know anyone into the scene. I must stop saying 'scene'.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cheers, as i say, not my scene, don't know anyone into the scene. I must stop saying 'scene'.



Do you mean 'scene' _qua _'scene', though?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Do you mean 'scene' _qua _'scene', though?


Damn straight.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Factually wrong btw, plenty of battles won, few wars.



Yeah, but that character's an anarcho-capitalist.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Yeah, but that character's an anarcho-capitalist.


I know, i'm reading the book - remember?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I know, i'm reading the book - remember?



Yes, but you've mentioned your problems with fiction.

I'm reading a dictionary at the moment. It's not much of a story, but it explains it as you go along.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Yes, but you've mentioned your problems with fiction.
> 
> I'm reading a dictionary at the moment. It's not much of a story, but it explains it as you go along.


Personally I like the...



Spoiler



...whole zebra twist ending thing.


----------



## belboid (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> As i said, i'm not making a point about SF  -about which i could not care less frankly - but about the use of arguments such as these by people who see themselves as progressive and on the left.


I cant see anything about who actually made the quote, its just repeated in all the press stories (tho not the one you actually linked to!)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

belboid said:


> I cant see anything about who actually made the quote, its just repeated in all the press stories (tho not the one you actually linked to!)


Here.


----------



## rekil (Mar 6, 2014)

Quality twittering.


----------



## belboid (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here.


she's not exactly important or central to anything tho


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> There's a big thread on this on the Charlie Stross blog (link to follow) and I think it's a bit more complicated than that. SF fandom appears to be trying to 'clean house' where inappropriate behaviour is concerned (behaviour like that of the superannuated 60s author who thinks he can grope anyone female, for example).
> 
> They also seem to have formed the impression that Ross (who apparently is a genuine sci-fi fan) is the type whose humour tends to involve the personalised attack that would be taken for bullying in other contexts. As I only know Ross from his chat show host persona I've no idea if that's true or not. My guess, though, is that they may have overreacted, but it's a bit more to it than just eejits thinking that barring people on skin colour and gender makes them progressive heroes.
> 
> ...


Please can you not use moronic? Thanks.


----------



## chilango (Mar 7, 2014)

Spotted on my twitter feed this morning someone describing themselves as "the Owen Jones of Reading politics".


----------



## cesare (Mar 7, 2014)

Jehovah Jehovah


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> Jehovah Jehovah


drop one keep one >> that way


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2014)

chilango said:


> Spotted on my twitter feed this morning someone describing themselves as "the Owen Jones of Reading politics".


reading as in looking at books or reading as in west of london?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 7, 2014)

chilango said:


> Spotted on my twitter feed this morning someone describing themselves as "the Owen Jones of Reading politics".


 
wtf does that mean. and why is this a good thing


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> wtf does that mean. and why is this a good thing


it's random words moulded into a sentence as meat is into a sausage.


----------



## cesare (Mar 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> drop one keep one >> that way


It's my impersonation of Idris.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2014)

chilango said:


> Spotted on my twitter feed this morning someone describing themselves as "the Owen Jones of Reading politics".


https://twitter.com/WillCross61


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's random words moulded into a sentence as meat is into a sausage.


 
to be fair i think that whenever i read a lot of commentariat writing - it's just putting random words together and hoping they'll make sense


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 7, 2014)

not that different to most of my posts


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> It's my impersonation of Idris.



You're only making it worse for yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You're only making it worse for yourself.


is that your impression of cesare?


----------



## cesare (Mar 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You're only making it worse for yourself.


I'm warning you.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 7, 2014)

you need some gifs to do a proper impression


----------



## cesare (Mar 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> is that your impression of cesare?


We are all Matthias now


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> you need some gifs to do a proper impression








Badgers


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 7, 2014)




----------



## chilango (Mar 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> https://twitter.com/WillCross61



That's the one.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 8, 2014)

The most Laurie Penny article ever (featuring Spain).

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ortion-not-about-morality-its-about-austerity


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 8, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> The most Laurie Penny article ever (featuring Spain).
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ortion-not-about-morality-its-about-austerity


And that's a bad article because why?


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 8, 2014)

cesare said:


> Isn't Abby Martin that presenter for RT that Casually Red luuuuuuurves?



I dont love her. I would though


----------



## rekil (Mar 8, 2014)

> To say that women’s right to decide what happens to their own bodies has been used as a political football is accurate only *if one thinks back to those playground days when the boys who had the football routinely trampled over the entire yard, ruining everyone else’s games.*


Didn't happen. Especially not in Brighton College with its state of the art sporting facilities.

Is Laurie accusing the PP of using identity politics to distract attention from proper hard issues?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 8, 2014)

I wonder what grounds for sports playage Brighton college have? I reckon it ain't one fucking yard.


----------



## rekil (Mar 10, 2014)

Brighton College cricket hoolies after shooing the 'geeks' off the playground.








> If you ever find yourself at a party full of “mainstream” literary types and you confess to having not encountered a book that everyone else considers vital, you may well be met by shocked stares. “Call yourself a reader when you haven’t read Ulysses, or Lolita?”


Another any old shit will do article, another posh party mention, another chance to roll out the smartest girl in a smart school claim and cadge approval from the people who matter. Firstly Laurie, you ARE "mainstream", none more so. Secondly, the first line. Made up. Though since the media and publishing industries are dominated by private school oxbridge filth it wouldn't be all that surprising would it.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 10, 2014)

There are schools with cricket pavilions... wow.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 10, 2014)

sci-fi and fantasy has been pretty mainstream throughout my life.  i mean, i like a fair bit of sci-fi and fantasy, if it's well written and not libertarian crap, but to pretend that suddenly the internet has made it mainstream is absolute bollocks and the sort of nonsense that implies that some sort of underground purity has been taken away from people who like to dress as stormtroopers.  YOUR TASTES DO NOT MAKE YOU AN OPPRESSED MINORITY WHOSE CULTURE HAS BEEN PLUNDERED.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2014)

Hard enough to find a comp with even a wicket nowadays.


----------



## rekil (Mar 10, 2014)

"You normals probably haven't heard of it, but there's this film called Gravity..."


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 10, 2014)

I got redirected to an advert offering private healthcare insurance off that bottom of that Laurie Penny article.

(link broken) https:// www protected co uk/health-insurance/faqs/top-5-health-insurance-secrets-revealed.phtml?dx=1

_It's not just the USA dwellers that need to have health insurance in their lives; even with the services of the NHS available to us all, UK residents should consider this valuable cover, too. With growing concerns about the effect that the government is having on the NHS, now is as good a time as ever to *consider health insurance* so that, should you face an illness or you need some sort of medical treatment, you will have another option.

With approximately 7 million people having already signed up for a health insurance policy1, it's time for you to join. Take a look at these industry secrets that will help you to make the most of your investment._

Intrigued at who Laurie Penny was clickbaiting for I read the "What's this" section at the bottom of the New Statesman website where the links are_:_

_http://www.contentclick.co.uk/links.php_

_*What are these links?*

ContentClick provides content links to sites who use our sponsored content widget. ContentClick and the site the links are displayed upon may receive a compensation when readers click and engage._

Now I know LP or the New Statesman don't get to choose what sites ContentClick advertise on their website_. _But even if they did I doubt they'd care. Money is money.


----------



## rekil (Mar 10, 2014)

Sihhi went through who advertises in the NS before, fucking attack helicopter companies and the like wasn't it.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 10, 2014)

Just have a look through some of the adverts in the print copy it's fucking grim. 

For instance in the last Christmas ediction, 20th Dec - 9th Jan, which I happen to have a print copy of all but a few pages away from Laurie's article is an advert for the Royal Over-seas League, a highly exclusive private club. "With historic clubhouses in central London and Edinburgh, we offer our members a home away from home. Contact RSOL for more information, quoting _New Statesman_ for special joining discounts."

Also a nice American express Platinum card one at the first few pages:

"As a platinum cardholder, you can find yourself invited to a bespoke range of events that have been curated with you in mind. Discover new culinary hotspots and meet the chef, or taste new vintages with renowned winemakers.

*It's all part of leading a Platinum life*"

I could go on because there's something that makes me want to puke on just about every other page.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 10, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> sci-fi and fantasy has been pretty mainstream throughout my life.  i mean, i like a fair bit of sci-fi and fantasy, if it's well written and not libertarian crap, but to pretend that suddenly the internet has made it mainstream is absolute bollocks and the sort of nonsense that implies that some sort of underground purity has been taken away from people who like to dress as stormtroopers.  YOUR TASTES DO NOT MAKE YOU AN OPPRESSED MINORITY WHOSE CULTURE HAS BEEN PLUNDERED.



She's taking the same approach to science fiction as she does to politics, turns up decades late to the party but is convinced that she and her chums invented it. Rich folk pay good money to have their offspring imbued with that sense of entitlement.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 10, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> Just have a look through some of the adverts in the print copy it's fucking grim.
> 
> For instance in the last Christmas ediction, 20th Dec - 9th Jan, which I happen to have a print copy of all but a few pages away from Laurie's article is an advert for the Royal Over-seas League, a highly exclusive private club. "With historic clubhouses in central London and Edinburgh, we offer our members a home away from home. Contact RSOL for more information, quoting _New Statesman_ for special joining discounts."
> 
> ...



You can also add, oddly for a supposedly leftie magazine, the NS's refusal to recognise the National Union of Journlists. A recognition the NUJ has been seeking, and the NS has been ducking, for a number of years now. I don't know if it would be fair, strictly speaking, to describe the NS as union-busting, but it certainly refusies to recognise the NUJ even while employing Toytown Trots and pretend revolutionaries of the Prada-Meinhof persuasion, such as Penny Dreadful.


----------



## chilango (Mar 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> There are schools with cricket pavilions... wow.



That's pretty run of the mill for those kinds of schools. I know of schools with their own boathouses on the Thames, their own climbing walls, i vaguely remember one that had its own cottage in the Cairngorms. Laurie Penny's old head, and inspiration, now leads a school with its own golf course.

These types of school also do sport, seriously, every day...and employ ex-internationals as coaches.

Never wondered why so many sports are dominated by private school kids?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 10, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> Just have a look through some of the adverts in the print copy it's fucking grim.
> 
> For instance in the last Christmas ediction, 20th Dec - 9th Jan, which I happen to have a print copy of all but a few pages away from Laurie's article is an advert for the Royal Over-seas League, a highly exclusive private club. "With historic clubhouses in central London and Edinburgh, we offer our members a home away from home. Contact RSOL for more information, quoting _New Statesman_ for special joining discounts."
> 
> ...



So it admits that you've got to be an RSOL to be a member?


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 10, 2014)

> There have always been reactionaries in the ranks and modern escapist creations such as _Game of Thrones_ are as riddled with gang rapes and gratuitous racism as any other mainstream fiction.



Say what? I assume by referring to GoT, she is specifically focusing on the TV show. I do not recall a single scene with gang rape (there is attempted male and female rape though). So to imply its riddled with it is stretching credibility. Whilst there are more reasonable points to make about racism in the show she once again misses the entire point. 

Christ, I am reminded of that absolutely terrible article she wrote about Game of Thrones. For a such a 'nerd' she really understands little of the show or books.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 10, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Say what? I assume by referring to GoT, she is specifically focusing on the TV show. I do not recall a single scene with gang rape (there is attempted male and female rape though). So to imply its riddled with it is stretching credibility. Whilst there are more reasonable points to make about racism in the show she once again misses the entire point.
> 
> Christ, I am reminded of that absolutely terrible article she wrote about Game of Thrones. For a such a 'nerd' she really understands little of the show or books.



In the article she conflated things that only happened in the books and only happened in the TV programme. Probably because she hasn't actually read the books and hasn't watched much of the TV programme and is basing her article off of someone else's work.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 10, 2014)

chilango said:


> That's pretty run of the mill for those kinds of schools. I know of schools with their own boathouses on the Thames, their own climbing walls, i vaguely remember one that had its own cottage in the Cairngorms. Laurie Penny's old head, and inspiration, now leads a school with its own golf course.
> 
> These types of school also do sport, seriously, every day...and employ ex-internationals as coaches.
> 
> Never wondered why so many sports are dominated by private school kids?



Biggest private school in Edinburgh is not far from where I live and they have gymnasia (plural), a separate games hall, a 'fitness room', a swimming pool, 6 hard tennis courts, a football pitch, a bowling green, a cricket pitch, a rugby pitch and a massive pavilion that serves the last two. My kids' school doesn't even have its own playing field.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 10, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> Just have a look through some of the adverts in the print copy it's fucking grim.
> 
> For instance in the last Christmas ediction, 20th Dec - 9th Jan, which I happen to have a print copy of all but a few pages away from Laurie's article is an advert for the Royal Over-seas League, a highly exclusive private club. "With historic clubhouses in central London and Edinburgh, we offer our members a home away from home. Contact RSOL for more information, quoting _New Statesman_ for special joining discounts."
> 
> ...



I think the health insurance advert is worse to be honest. It reminds me of the demolition job being carried out against the NHS.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 10, 2014)

chilango said:


> That's pretty run of the mill for those kinds of schools. I know of schools with their own boathouses on the Thames, their own climbing walls, i vaguely remember one that had its own cottage in the Cairngorms. Laurie Penny's old head, and inspiration, now leads a school with its own golf course.
> 
> These types of school also do sport, seriously, every day...and employ ex-internationals as coaches.
> 
> Never wondered why so many sports are dominated by private school kids?


I once tutored a private school pupil. They had to do two hours of sport every day after school, some were practice sessions, other days were matches with other private school teams, plus all afternoon Wednesdays and Saturday afternoons were competitions or more matches. The pupil was often too exhausted to do homework and quite frankly they should have been doing less sport not more.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 10, 2014)

Meanwhile over on twitter one of the patron saints of twittersectionalism, Mikki Kendall, the originator of the moderately famous #solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag, has gone full patriot. It starts with Snowden being a "traitor" and culminates in her stating that her politics were never radical to begin with.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 10, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Meanwhile over on twitter one of the patron saints of twittersectionalism, Mikki Kendall, the originator of the moderately famous #solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag, has gone full patriot. It starts with Snowden being a "traitor" and culminates in her stating that her politics were never radical to begin with.



Looks like Obama wins this round of top trumps!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 10, 2014)

It's some really quite astonishing stuff. It's almost too perfect.

Karnythia is her twitter name if any rubberneckers want to watch the carnage


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 10, 2014)

That article is bad though - it's inconsistent throughout, and whilst the image is indeed of Charlotte Church, it's not of Charlotte Church 'doing a sci-fi show' as the caption helpfully points out, it's a UV light show of Charlotte Church performing her latest EP 'Four'. And Charlotte Church would be the first to point out she's a fairly mainstream artist, so why the picture of her in the first place?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 10, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Meanwhile over on twitter one of the patron saints of twittersectionalism, Mikki Kendall, the originator of the moderately famous #solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag, has gone full patriot. It starts with Snowden being a "traitor" and culminates in her stating that her politics were never radical to begin with.



Huh, I wouldn't have thought American nationalist and intersectional feminist were a squareable circle...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> Huh, I wouldn't have thought American nationalist and intersectional feminist were a squareable circle...


have you seen the way american nationalists complain about the way they're treated by the federal government?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> have you seen the way american nationalists complain about the way they're treated by the federal government?


True enough, but they do at least have an imaginary historical idyll to fall back on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> True enough, but they do at least have an imaginary historical idyll to fall back on.


yeh one in which feminists did not play a prominent role


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 10, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> Huh, I wouldn't have thought American nationalist and intersectional feminist were a squareable circle...



I suspect that's only true if you think that intersectionalism is inherently radical. Most US liberals are patriotic to some degree or other.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> is basing her article off of someone else's work.









'Johann Hari, Hari Hari, Johann Hari, Penny Dreadful...'


----------



## Buckaroo (Mar 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Hard enough to find a comp with even a wicket nowadays.



That's not cricket.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 10, 2014)

It will be interesting to see how the British (largely white) twitter intersectionals respond to Kendall's outbursts. Will anyone have the chutzpah to try to defend her with a "racist bullying" card, will they just quietly ignore the whole thing, or will they turn on her?

So far it's largely been Americans responding.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> sci-fi and fantasy has been pretty mainstream throughout my life.  i mean, i like a fair bit of sci-fi and fantasy, if it's well written and not libertarian crap, but to pretend that suddenly the internet has made it mainstream is absolute bollocks and the sort of nonsense that implies that some sort of underground purity has been taken away from people who like to dress as stormtroopers.  YOUR TASTES DO NOT MAKE YOU AN OPPRESSED MINORITY WHOSE CULTURE HAS BEEN PLUNDERED.




it's hard growing up in the genre ghetto *plays mouth organ*


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That article is bad though - it's inconsistent throughout, and whilst the image is indeed of Charlotte Church, it's not of Charlotte Church 'doing a sci-fi show' as the caption helpfully points out, it's a UV light show of Charlotte Church performing her latest EP 'Four'. And Charlotte Church would be the first to point out she's a fairly mainstream artist, so why the picture of her in the first place?



possibly to show the mainstream stealing from sci-fi people.

although if they knew anything about church they'd know that the whole pop thing was her job and that she's a bright lass who knows her stuff, not some vacuous simon cowell machine appropriating cultures.

edited to add: they don't know anything about charlotte church of course, because charlotte church is a) working class; and b) low culture, and so completely beneath the NS radar.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 10, 2014)

I will say the photo sort of did fit with the theme of the article overall i.e. it was forced to fit a narrative that is simply wrong. Sci-fi is not mainstream. It has become more acceptable to be a geek ('geek chic' and all that), to be different but I'm the first to admit to pointing at the chap at work who still plays Magic The Gathering and laughing a little at him, whilst clutching a copy of Terry Practhett's 'Steam'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2014)

sci fi is pretty mainstream now. OK so you aren't going to see people weilding the latest Alistair Reynolds novel much, but as a genre it is fine now. No longer are we basement dwelling serial masturbators the only people who enjoy Battlestar Galactica! the wheel has turned and now my furtive habit is cool once more. Like what it was in the 70s when even playboy would publish sci fi amongst the tits.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 11, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's some really quite astonishing stuff. It's almost too perfect.
> 
> Karnythia is her twitter name if any rubberneckers want to watch the carnage



The most sophisticated surveillance state in human history, a system that would make the Stasi blush with envy but apparently Snowden is the enemy because he's libertarian. At this point, I don't care for his political allegiance, the story is simply too big and important for us not to know. 

As disgusting as COINTELPRO was, throwing in identity politics about the most egregious form of civil liberties invasion is really quite insulting.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> sci fi is pretty mainstream now. OK so you aren't going to see people weilding the latest Alistair Reynolds novel much, but as a genre it is fine now. No longer are we *only* basement dwelling serial masturbators the only people who enjoy Battlestar Galactica! the wheel has turned and _now my furtive habit is cool once more_. Like what it was in the 70s when even playboy would publish sci fi amongst the tits.



Your poor eyesight.


----------



## rekil (Mar 12, 2014)

A stone cold classic.


----------



## cesare (Mar 12, 2014)




----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

Got to to be a glimpse of crowd sourced humour.


----------



## cesare (Mar 12, 2014)

It's just such a _fucking_ stupid thing to say.


----------



## rekil (Mar 12, 2014)

> Someone ask me about my in depth critique of mainstream media sometime. But no! I'm just that lady who writes about lady things.


She was asked a few times here was she not? And the response was "For fucks sake, I work for a living"


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

I can't even get what the frig their joke is about this time.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 12, 2014)

_monetize _your made up background, _monetize _your friendships, _monetize _your sexuality, _monetize _the books you haven't read - _monetize _your life


----------



## J Ed (Mar 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> She was asked a few times here was she not? And the response was "For fucks sake, I work for a living"



Good media on the right side of history:
See union-hating, ex Daily Mail journo run New Statesman

Bad media:
Anyone who refuses to employ Laurie.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

Yeah?



> That’s key: political economy. And you use the word “egalitarian.” That’s sort of what’s completely missing today. All of these victories on these other fronts, largely matters of identity politics, and where is the egalitarian left?
> 
> Right, and my friend Walter Michaels has made this point very eloquently over and over again . . .  that the problem with a notion of equality or social justice that’s rooted in the perspectives of multiculturalism and diversity is that from those perspectives you can have a society that’s perfectly just if less than 1 percent of the population controls 95 percent of the stuff, so long as that one percent is half women and 12 percent black, and 12 percent Latino and whatever the appropriate numbers are gay. Now that’s a problem.



I wonder how her and her classes economic dominance would be adequately represented? Maybe by majority ownership/control and content provision? So what's the prob - you got it already?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2014)

J Ed said:


> _monetize _your made up background, _monetize _your friendships, _monetize _your sexuality, _monetize _the books you haven't read - _monetize _your life


that's like prostituting yourself, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> A stone cold classic.



the minute you start talking about building a brand you know you're doing something wrong. oh - and crowdsourced reporting sounds very much like getting other people to do the work for you.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> that's like prostituting yourself, right?



Yeah but that's not a bad thing in commentariat world. "I really like sex and I'm writing my sex-poz blog about how I like sex and how empowered I am WITH MY SEX". Not being a woman with a fierce drug addiction and a criminal record selling sex to get by and hating every minute of it.


----------



## rekil (Mar 12, 2014)

Maybe personal brand building is a key part of that "autonomist tradition" LP claims to come from. Poor Naomi Klein. She warned us.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 12, 2014)

Fingers crossed I won't come across someone in real life who talks about 'building' their 'personal brand.'


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Fingers crossed I won't come across someone in real life who talks about 'building' their 'personal brand.'


If you do, get it on your phone please.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 12, 2014)

How come LP is the one who gets paid for 'crowd sourcing' 'journalism' and not the actual members of the crowd who do the work?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

J Ed said:


> How come LP is the one who gets paid for 'crowd sourcing' 'journalism' and not the actual members of the crowd who do the work?


Same reason facebook get all the money for their members content. They're enclosing thieves.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2014)

I love the way she was doing that in 2007 though. Twitter only launched in July 2006 - was she really using it right at the start?

Also, the NUJ asked her to promote them to students of journalism (a simple retweet, no presentations or anything) yet she didn't according to her twitter profile. Not cool.


----------



## rekil (Mar 12, 2014)

Laurie's alma mater doing a spiffing job.



> In 12th place this year, Brighton is ahead of many much more selective schools. This large improvement from entry at Year 7 or Year 9 to the final public exams is reflected in some of the best value-added scores in the country.
> 
> All of this is down to the school's recruitment and retention of truly outstanding teachers who inspire children here to achieve more than anyone thought possible.
> 
> Almost all leavers progress to university in the UK, though the number of pupils applying to universities in the USA and Europe is increasing.


I suspect that.small class sizes, massive resources, and exclusive entry procedures that keep the undesirables out might also have something to do with it.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie's alma mater doing a spiffing job.
> 
> 
> I suspect that.small class sizes, massive resources, and exclusive entry procedures that keep the undesirables out might also have something to do with it.



Not to mention a much higher proportion of parents who can afford to pay university fees.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 12, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Fingers crossed I won't come across someone in real life who talks about 'building' their 'personal brand.'



my brother does this. I'm selling a person not a service etc. He cleans half a dozen local pubs and estate agents. Most nauseating of all is the phrase on his latest glossy leaflet 'We don't claim to be the cheapest. But we do claim to be the best'

which nobhead has he sourced that line from. Oh that'll be me.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

_Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university_

Jesus, i thought i was angry an hour ago.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> my brother does this. I'm selling a person not a service etc. He cleans half a dozen local pubs and estate agents. Most nauseating of all is the phrase on his latest glossy leaflet 'We don't claim to be the cheapest. But we do claim to be the best'
> 
> which nobhead has he sourced that line from. Oh that'll be me.


Probably why my own dabble in the entrepreneurship world failed - i said _we're not the best but we are the cheapest_. I got 2 grand to do that for agreeing to be taken off the unemployment stats.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie's alma mater doing a spiffing job.
> 
> 
> I suspect that.small class sizes, massive resources, and exclusive entry procedures that keep the undesirables out might also have something to do with it.



recruitment and retention of truly outstanding teachers?

hmmm.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

chilango said:


> recruitment and retention of truly outstanding teachers?
> 
> hmmm.


Contract not renewed?


----------



## rekil (Mar 12, 2014)

What's going on at the Abu Dhabi Brighton College? Teachers on scooters!? Wacky tie at 4:34? The wee fellow at 1:55 will be trouble in 20 years time mark my words.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2014)

Remember, I've experienced seldon's recruitment process first hand. 

I've sat in enough of these posh school staffrooms too.

truly outstanding, my arse.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> my brother does this. I'm selling a person not a service etc. He cleans half a dozen local pubs and estate agents. Most nauseating of all is the phrase on his latest glossy leaflet 'We don't claim to be the cheapest. But we do claim to be the best'
> 
> which nobhead has he sourced that line from. Oh that'll be me.


He's building a business brand though, not a personal brand of Dave Communist.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> _Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university_
> 
> Jesus, i thought i was angry an hour ago.


The ones that become apprentices are probably never spoken of again, no matter how good their school grades. The ones that go into *gasp* businesses not owned by their parents could likely be counted on one hand, if any exist.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The ones that become apprentices are probably never spoken of again, no matter how good their school grades. The ones that go into *gasp* businesses not owned by their parents could likely be counted on one hand, if any exist.



there are plenty of university courses these kids can simply pay to be on, no matter how poor their grades. Switzerland, for example, has entire Universities that seem to be based upon this. I once met a buch of Brit med students in the Czech Rep who'd flunked in the UK, but paid to study there.

Only a few students from these schools need these safety nets though. Most will get the grades. Or a sports scholarship in rowing or something.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Also, the NUJ asked her to promote them to students of journalism (a simple retweet, no presentations or anything) yet she didn't according to her twitter profile. Not cool.



If she had promoted the NUJ then her union-busting employers at the New Statesman might be a tad peeved. Plus, sooner or later, people might start asking why she was promoting the NUJ when her employers at the New Statesman abjectly refuse to recognise the NUJ in their workplace.

Which might conflict with Penny Dreadful monetising the principles, people and causes that she claims to genuinely, passionately espouse.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> If she had promoted the NUJ then her union-busting employers at the New Statesman might be a tad peeved. Plus, sooner or later, people might start asking why she was promoting the NUJ when her employers at the New Statesman abjectly refuse to recognise the NUJ in their workplace.
> 
> Which might conflict with Penny Dreadful monetising the principles, people and causes that she claims to genuinely, passionately espouse.


They may well refuse to recognise the bargaining power of the NUJ but there's nothing stopping her being in it as a member. Apart from not being able to monetise union membership of course.


----------



## tim (Mar 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> What's going on at the Abu Dhabi Brighton College? Teachers on scooters!? Wacky tie at 4:34? The wee fellow at 1:55 will be trouble in 20 years time mark my words.




Sound track sounds rather psycho shower scene to me.

And not many hijabs or indeed any indication of the world beyond the school gates.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The ones that become apprentices are probably never spoken of again, no matter how good their school grades. The ones that go into *gasp* businesses not owned by their parents could likely be counted on one hand, if any exist.


Wiling to bet not one person from this school started an apprenticeship. Ever. Even in the old days of proper ones.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 12, 2014)

Good lord no. Apprenticeships are for people who have to get their hands dirty.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> What's going on at the Abu Dhabi Brighton College? Teachers on scooters!? Wacky tie at 4:34? The wee fellow at 1:55 will be trouble in 20 years time mark my words.



Is that the new wes anderson?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Wiling to bet not one person from this school started an apprenticeship. Ever. Even in the old days of proper ones.


I think there might have been a couple over the years. But I would think they've been airbrushed from the history of the school.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 12, 2014)

apprenticeships in the modern workforce are actually just code for 'we'll pay this mug less than the dole'

mate of mine left school and got work through his dads connection as an apprentice pipe fitter. They site bods gave him a hell of a time, and thats out of order. But he got paid a big wedge every week, was given out-of-area money if he was on a site some miles away and was taught the craft. They even had him do a btec one day a week, which they paid for. 

where are the apprenticeships like that now? they don't even want skilled people anymore, just outsource it all. Sooner or later thats going to become an issue because you won't have trained bods anymore.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> apprenticeships in the modern workforce are actually just code for 'we'll pay this mug less than the dole'
> 
> mate of mine left school and got work through his dads connection as an apprentice pipe fitter. They site bods gave him a hell of a time, and thats out of order. But he got paid a big wedge every week, was given out-of-area money if he was on a site some miles away and was taught the craft. They even had him do a btec one day a week, which they paid for.
> 
> where are the apprenticeships like that now? they don't even want skilled people anymore, just outsource it all. Sooner or later thats going to become an issue because you won't have trained bods anymore.



I've seen a NMW job I once did as a waiter in a restaurant advertised as an apprenticeship, probably the worst preparation and training I've ever had before a job and the worst management too. Disgusting.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> apprenticeships in the modern workforce are actually just code for 'we'll pay this mug less than the dole'
> 
> mate of mine left school and got work through his dads connection as an apprentice pipe fitter. They site bods gave him a hell of a time, and thats out of order. But he got paid a big wedge every week, was given out-of-area money if he was on a site some miles away and was taught the craft. They even had him do a btec one day a week, which they paid for.
> 
> where are the apprenticeships like that now? they don't even want skilled people anymore, just outsource it all. Sooner or later thats going to become an issue because you won't have trained bods anymore.



There are lots of shit apprenticeships but also there are lots of good craft and trade ones out there, especially in public services or outsourced companies doing public services , like gas fitters, plumbers, chippies etc


----------



## Belushi (Mar 12, 2014)

chilango said:


> I once met a buch of Brit med students in the Czech Rep who'd flunked in the UK, but paid to study there.



Yeah, I know a fella who did that.  He's a GP now.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> apprenticeships in the modern workforce are actually just code for 'we'll pay this mug less than the dole'
> 
> mate of mine left school and got work through his dads connection as an apprentice pipe fitter. They site bods gave him a hell of a time, and thats out of order. But he got paid a big wedge every week, was given out-of-area money if he was on a site some miles away and was taught the craft. They even had him do a btec one day a week, which they paid for.
> 
> where are the apprenticeships like that now? they don't even want skilled people anymore, just outsource it all. Sooner or later thats going to become an issue because you won't have trained bods anymore.


There's some, if you know where to look, but because manufacturing and construction have been decimated, the usual mass employers of apprentices are reducing how many they take or not taking on any at all.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 12, 2014)

Back when i was in construction there was a scam of sorts where lads would enroll on a sparky course at college and then use that as a pretext to become an electrician's 'mate' with the agencies, which paid more and was less brutal than general labouring. I guess a lot of them would have got the trade eventually if they did the college. In some ways it would have been better than an apprenticeship; 'mates' certainly got paid more than apprentices did. The bastard would be having to do college of an evening, but it certainly seemed another avenue in to getting a trade. People find a way.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think there might have been a couple over the years. But I would think they've been airbrushed from the history of the school.



Nope.

There might have been a few _internships_ though.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 13, 2014)

Thread theme tune appropriated.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 13, 2014)

chilango said:


> there are plenty of university courses these kids can simply pay to be on, no matter how poor their grades. Switzerland, for example, has entire Universities that seem to be based upon this. I once met a buch of Brit med students in the Czech Rep who'd flunked in the UK, but paid to study there.



It used to be you could do that at the College of Surgeons in Dublin. They had to stop it in the 1980s because you were getting people in there who _totally and completely unsuited to being doctors. _


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> A stone cold classic.




FUCK OFF! What shit ethics. Not what journalism should be about.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> FUCK OFF! What shit ethics. Not what journalism should be about.



Given her treatment of the chap who threatened suicide (such as running the story even after the Samaritans and others had already clearly said it wasn't in that individual's best interests) I'd certainly question her use of the word 'ethical.' Come to think of it, having known a great many activists and having been one myself, I'd also question her claiming to be any kind of activist at all and I've always been sickened by her use of various causes and ideals as some kind of moneymaking pose while people involved who actually believe in their chosen causes are out risking daily harassment by the authorities, risking court appearances, risking prison sentences and often going to jail for their beliefs while Penny Dreadful simply exploits them as copy fodder.

That's what really makes me angry about PD and her ilk. To them protest movements are a mixture of career opportunities and moneymaking schemes. They're not involved out of a genuine commitment or devotion, they're involved because a spot of radical chic looks good on the CV and enables them to market themselves as being edgy/alternative/voice of a generation/insert fake marketing blurb and cliches here. Meanwhile, the people who take actual risks are doing so because they actually commit to causes and ideas and often suffer the consequences. I've been out on protests and at camps where arrest and jail wasn't an abstract concept or a small possibility, I've sat in court watching friends and colleagues being sent down and fined and slapped with onerous bail conditions and I've spent many hours doing the donkey work behind the scenes as well and I did all that because the causes were ones I actually believed in and thought were worth the time, effort and effort and money and working on them even when I was often ill enough that I should have been in bed. It was never a career move or a business opportunity or a pose for me. It is for PD and her ilk and the thing that infuriates me most is the dishonesty and mercenary motives concealed behind a fake belief in causes that's about as genuine as a Rolex off a Bangkok market stall.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> If you do, get it on your phone please.



Before or after he culls them?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2014)

J Ed said:


> How come LP is the one who gets paid for 'crowd sourcing' 'journalism' and not the actual members of the crowd who do the work?



Because she's the (inter)mediator, getting their plebian content out to a wider audience.  At least, that's how the dog-fuckers who solicit content from the public justify this to themselves - as serving a purpose that the plebs themselves can't fulfill.
It's absolute bullshit, obviously. Laziness and an unwillingness to research issues beyond tweeting for opinions.  What gets lost is that those you're tweeting to are a self-selected group (of, say, Laurie fans), so your "crowd-sourced" data is value-laden and quite possibly skewed and full of Laurie-pleasing rather than "truths" or "facts".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I love the way she was doing that in 2007 though. Twitter only launched in July 2006 - was she really using it right at the start?
> 
> Also, the NUJ asked her to promote them to students of journalism (a simple retweet, no presentations or anything) yet she didn't according to her twitter profile. Not cool.



Why would she? What was in it for her? Certainly no monetisation of her radicality.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> _Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university. Almost all leavers progress to university_
> 
> Jesus, i thought i was angry an hour ago.



It's a fantastic iteration of "money talks, all else is bullshit", isn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because she's the (inter)mediator, getting their plebian content out to a wider audience.  At least, that's how the dog-fuckers who solicit content from the public justify this to themselves - as serving a purpose that the plebs themselves can't fulfill.
> It's absolute bullshit, obviously. Laziness and an unwillingness to research issues beyond tweeting for opinions.  What gets lost is that those you're tweeting to are a self-selected group (of, say, Laurie fans), so your "crowd-sourced" data is value-laden and quite possibly skewed and full of Laurie-pleasing rather than "truths" or "facts".


it's always struck me something of a pity how people like lp think they're needed by the plebs to get the pleb message out


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> apprenticeships in the modern workforce are actually just code for 'we'll pay this mug less than the dole'
> 
> mate of mine left school and got work through his dads connection as an apprentice pipe fitter. They site bods gave him a hell of a time, and thats out of order. But he got paid a big wedge every week, was given out-of-area money if he was on a site some miles away and was taught the craft. They even had him do a btec one day a week, which they paid for.
> 
> where are the apprenticeships like that now? they don't even want skilled people anymore, just outsource it all. Sooner or later thats going to become an issue because you won't have trained bods anymore.



It's already an issue in some trades. Trackside signals and telecommunications on the railways is mostly the purview of blokes aged 50+, with fewer youngsters being trained up than "natural wastage" reduces the labour pool by.  Eventually that'll mean people versed in theory rather than practice, doing that work, and *that* is a terrifying thought to me.


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That article is bad though - it's inconsistent throughout, and whilst the image is indeed of Charlotte Church, it's not of Charlotte Church 'doing a sci-fi show' as the caption helpfully points out, it's a UV light show of Charlotte Church performing her latest EP 'Four'. And Charlotte Church would be the first to point out she's a fairly mainstream artist, so why the picture of her in the first place?



really like her new single, Glitterbombed.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why would she? What was in it for her? Certainly no monetisation of her radicality.



Isn't the New Statesman still anti-NUJ? Would explain a lot. 

Penny is typical of the ego who wants to be the focus of the story not the story itself. Not that I was a particular fan of hers to begin with, after seeing that tweet, I just cannot take her seriously any longer. The Louise Mensch of the Left.


----------



## cesare (Mar 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Isn't the New Statesman still anti-NUJ? Would explain a lot.
> 
> Penny is typical of the ego who wants to be the focus of the story not the story itself. Not that I was a particular fan of hers to begin with, after seeing that tweet, I just cannot take her seriously any longer. The Louise Mensch of the Left.


We don't know if the New Statesman is still anti NUJ or not because the last time I looked the NUJ haven't tried to get recognition again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2014)

cesare said:


> We don't know if the New Statesman is still anti NUJ or not because the last time I looked the NUJ haven't tried to get recognition again.


why would they, when there's a sign in the new statesman's editor's office reading





> please do not ask for union recognition as refusal often offends


----------



## cesare (Mar 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> why would they, when there's a sign in the new statesman's editor's office reading


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 13, 2014)

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...eryl-sandbergs-ban-bossy-campaign&h=BAQGi-6wJ


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 13, 2014)

not being funny but why do people care so much about this sort of thing?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 13, 2014)




----------



## caleb (Mar 13, 2014)

1. I wonder if Karama identifies as a 'PoC'?
2. 'Folks' - what's the intersectionalist obsession with that word? It's fine on twitter, despite being a cliche, but in an official letter? lol.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 13, 2014)

I'd be thankful for being excluded by that bunch of pricks because it would lessen my chances of having a stroke.


----------



## cesare (Mar 13, 2014)

This is exactly the same reasoning that some feminists give for excluding MtF at radfem events.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I'd be thankful for being excluded by that bunch of pricks because it would lessen my chances of having a stroke.


Oy, check your vascular privileges!


----------



## rekil (Mar 14, 2014)

Micah M.White PhD doing some "mansplaining" here. Or cuntsplaining rather. Trying to tell Kshama Sawant how to do #activism. The fucking nerve of these useless pigs. 



> For Occupy, a movement that famously eschewed a top-down organization, rallying around any leader, even one who sings from the same choirbook, has its own challenges. White, who coined the term, said he supports Sawant -- yet still yearns for an even bolder kind of politician who might, say, serve a month before handing the office to someone else.
> 
> “My advice for her would be, be careful to think you won’t be in power too long,” he said. “When these people get elected, they act as if they’re going to be there a very long time.”


"These people" eh?


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Micah M.White PhD doing some "mansplaining" here. Or cuntsplaining rather. Trying to tell Kshama Sawant how to do #activism. The fucking nerve of these useless pigs.
> 
> 
> "These people" eh?



Aside from the obvious practical difficulty of anybody being in a job for only a month having barely had time to learn all the ins and outs before handing over to someone else who also spends their month figuring out the job. Repeat ad infinitum.


----------



## rekil (Mar 14, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Aside from the obvious practical difficulty of anybody being in a job for only a month having barely had time to learn all the ins and outs before handing over to someone else who also spends their month figuring out the job. Repeat ad infinitum.


Surely Mr.White's month was up long ago so why hasn't he fucked off and let someone else bagthe google goodies and be the go to guy/gal for any vaguely lefty stories.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

Monetize those murdered in the Syria conflict







http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/syria-war-3-years-dead-faces-activist-voices


----------



## rekil (Mar 14, 2014)

Why not just print the photos she's copied?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2014)

actual conflict chic


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

> As I drew faces for the #100000Names Oral Memorial for Syria, more deaths appeared on Twitter. A Canadian photojournalist named Ali Mustafa, dead from a barrel bomb in Aleppo. Anwar Banoud, who ran aid convoys from Turkey to Syria, dead. Hamza, a Palestinian actor, killed by security forces in Yarmouk.
> 
> I keep drawing Syria’s dead. Drawing means preserving. I sometimes draw bystanders and sometimes heroes, but always humans, clever and brave and vulnerable. They look outward, from the computer screen, toward the world.



Jesus.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 14, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Monetize those murdered in the Syria conflict
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Coming soon to an auction site near you, probably at an inflated price.

And will Syrian refugees and similar unfortunates be seeing any of the profits..?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> actual conflict cheek



.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

On the earlier point about Penny's brand, this is my big issue about their journalistic conduct. They both need to insert themselves into the story to raise their own sense of self-importance - whether through badly written anecdote or sketches.

The sketches literally tell us nothing about these people and we assume they are entirely accurate depictions. It doesn't garner any further sympathy had we just seen regular photographs of the victims. Instead, it's about brand Crabapple. This mix of art and journalism is just terrible because it places needless emphasis on the author.

Journalists are not the story, just the storyteller.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 14, 2014)

> But the Western left paid little attention to Syria’s activists.
> 
> For the last decade, the left has struggled against the murderous idiocies of the War on Terror. Guantanamo. Iraq. Weddings drone-bombed in the name of “freedom”. When Syrian activists and the Free Syrian Army began asking for weapons and no-fly zones in what actually was a fight for freedom, the Western left mostly looked away.



Who is this 'left' she is talking about? For that matter, what the fuck is she talking about? Oh, it's time to for her to m_onetize _some neoconservativism - Hitchens with a pencil

No wonder they let her into Gitmo to do some sketches


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

It's a lot of self-serving bollocks to claim drawing is 'preserving.' So is photography. But would brand Crabapple fly all the way to the region if she couldn't in turn boost her own profile? I find her intentions suspect.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Who is this 'left' she is talking about? For that matter, what the fuck is she talking about? Oh, it's time to for her to m_onetize _some neoconservativism - Hitchens with a pencil
> 
> No wonder they let her into Gitmo to do some sketches



It's like that nonsense she keeps spouting about people in their own country organising protests and a lack of support from the strawman left because of the U.S.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 14, 2014)

This is just so vapid I don't have any idea how to deal with it.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

Fuck, she is far worse than Penny. Lots of people want a solution in Syria. A solution that does not include dropping iron fragmentation bombs across Syria. How many sketches would she be drawing of the dead that were murdered by Western forces? Probably none.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 14, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Fuck, she is far worse than Penny. Lots of people want a solution in Syria. A solution that does not include dropping iron fragmentation bombs across Syria. How many sketches would she be drawing of the dead that were murdered by Western forces? Probably none.



Well she was cheering on the far-right protests against the Venezuelan government and denying the existence of the far-right in Ukraine while decrying anyone sceptical of Euromaidan as being right-wing 'MRAs' the other day. She is a fucking idiot.


----------



## The Pale King (Mar 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> This is just so vapid I don't have any idea how to deal with it.




Where's the politics here? It's just a meaningless bifurcation - 'Syrian women' v 'white dudes', 'neocons' v 'the left'. Which side you take depends on what pose you want to strike. And this:

"In wars, it’s easy to see the dead as gore on a Twitter feed, as statistics to be shrugged away."

...is hideous, frankly. She comes over like she's educating us, but she actually reveals herself to be deeply callous. 'Gore on a twitter feed' ffs


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 14, 2014)

Are they too dense to also realise that some on the right oppose intervention in Syria? Quite a few Tory MPs did. I'm sure some Republicans might. This is not a problem solely for the left.

I guess their version of the left are white 'MRA' brodudes.


----------



## rekil (Mar 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Well she was cheering on the far-right protests against the Venezuelan government and denying the existence of the far-right in Ukraine while decrying anyone sceptical of Euromaidan as being right-wing 'MRAs' the other day. She is a fucking idiot.


Links pls!


----------



## J Ed (Mar 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Links pls!



Not gonna look through everything but here's a taste of it ..


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Mar 14, 2014)

Hey Molly, read this: http://williamblum.org/books/killing-hope


----------



## benedict (Mar 15, 2014)

Yes! Even when writing fiction LP can't help but make herself the central character:

"Six months ago, Ruby Peeton was an A-star student. Captain of the netball team. On her way to Cambridge. That was before she got involved in the dangerous underground world of Seer swapping."


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Why not just print the photos she's copied?


Why not just photo that bowl of fruit?

(Not that I'm defending the disgusting Crabapple cunt)


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 15, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Fuck, she is far worse than Penny. Lots of people want a solution in Syria. A solution that does not include dropping iron fragmentation bombs across Syria. How many sketches would she be drawing of the dead that were murdered by Western forces? Probably none.


Well Penny cheered on the bombing of Libya, but yeah Crabapple is worse, supporting scum in Venezuela and the Ukraine.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 15, 2014)

benedict said:


> Yes! Even when writing fiction LP can't help but make herself the central character:
> 
> "Six months ago, Ruby Peeton was an A-star student. Captain of the netball team. On her way to Cambridge. That was before she got involved in the dangerous underground world of Seer swapping."




proper mary sue


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Why not just photo that bowl of fruit?
> 
> (Not that I'm defending the disgusting Crabapple cunt)


We are all that bowl of fruit.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> We are all that bowl of fruit.



I'm nicking that.


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I'm nicking that.


Just the right mix of pathos and vapidity I think.


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

benedict said:


> Yes! Even when writing fiction LP can't help but make herself the central character:
> 
> "Six months ago, Ruby Peeton was an A-star student. Captain of the netball team. On her way to Cambridge. That was before she got involved in the dangerous underground world of Seer swapping."


Writing fiction is hard and I've got no qualms about admitting that I've written my fair share of utter rubbish but LP boasts continually about being a SF geek, so why oh why is this so fucking irredeemably shit?


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 15, 2014)

Fair's fair. It's better than her poetry.

In the same way that the electric chair is better than being broken on the wheel, granted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Fair's fair. It's better than her poetry.
> 
> In the same way that the electric chair is better than being broken on the wheel, granted.


being in the chair can be far worse than the wheel as yer man can kill you instantly on the wheel but the chair takes longer


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Writing fiction is hard and I've got no qualms about admitting that I've written my fair share of utter rubbish but LP boasts continually about being a SF geek, so why oh why is this so fucking irredeemably shit?




the influence of Gaiman and Pratchett. They are guilty of twee in the first degree but despite that are good writers if you like that sort of thing, which I do. But its very, very easy to do badly.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 15, 2014)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jessie-thompson/left-wing-people_b_4941582.html

The article makes some valid points but manages to be annoying itself.


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the influence of Gaiman and Pratchett. They are guilty of twee in the first degree but despite that are good writers if you like that sort of thing, which I do. But its very, very easy to do badly.


Gaiman has never interested me but Pratchett is good at what he does. Cory Doctorow has been mentioned. He has a book called For The Win ffs. Is LP's story a condensed rip off of Little Brother?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 15, 2014)

never had much time for Doctorow but the odd short story has passed my eyes- for someone who _just_ gets away with that cringey zietgiesty riffing, Charles Stross. And even then its cos he packs it with weird, inventive and knowledgable stuff that backs the odd bum note


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Writing fiction is hard and I've got no qualms about admitting that I've written my fair share of utter rubbish but LP boasts continually about being a SF geek, so why oh why is this so fucking irredeemably shit?



It's not that bad for something obviously dashed off with little thought, although the bit they chose to highlight is lolsome (laughed with her mouth wide open what the fuck?)

I would nominate Cory Doctorow as the best near future speculator person.

Stross and MacLeod are both better writers, but less plausible imo


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 15, 2014)

worth mentioning Greg Egan for convincing sci fi- another one who I only enjoy in short fiction. Axiomatic is his best short collection.


MacLeod as mentioned is a bit implausible but really really fun.


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> It's not that bad for something obviously dashed off with little thought, although the bit they chose to highlight is lolsome (laughed with her mouth wide open what the fuck?)


If she'd read some Myles na gCopaleen she might avoid deploying cliches like "prying eyes", And that "warehouse off the Harrow Road" bit makes no sense. It's a big road so she'd need to be a bit more specific since she goes on to mention that Tottenham is under military occupation. Bah.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 15, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Fair's fair. It's better than her poetry.
> 
> In the same way that the electric chair is better than being broken on the wheel, granted.



Vogon poetry is better than her poetry.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> It's not that bad for something obviously dashed off with little thought, although the bit they chose to highlight is lolsome (laughed with her mouth wide open what the fuck?)
> 
> I would nominate Cory Doctorow as the best near future speculator person.
> 
> Stross and MacLeod are both better writers, but less plausible imo



The one time I met Macleod I asked him if The Star Fraction was partly an allegory for the 'strange death of labour England' and he said yes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Vogon poetry is better than her poetry.




have you ever had the pleasure of Lousie the abandoner of Corby Mensch's poetry?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> have you ever had the pleasure of Lousie the abandoner of Corby Mensch's poetry?



Christ, you made me look some of it up. Like smelling adolescent farts.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Vogon poetry is better than her poetry.



_"Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes,
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
With my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"_

It's still immeasurably better than Saudade.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 15, 2014)

Check out my pal taking LP to task for her choice of 'anger' to describe the 'I too am Oxford' 

Follows on from this.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

To be fair, having looked at recent posts on her Twitter feed I got the impression that she was all for the 'I am too Oxford' campaign and thought that the 'we are too oxford' campaign, which seems to have disappeared, was all about white privileged students.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 15, 2014)

it is my considered position that anyone in the media world who calls themselves Ned needs to be strangled in the town square.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the influence of Gaiman and Pratchett. They are guilty of twee in the first degree but despite that are good writers if you like that sort of thing, which I do. But its very, very easy to do badly.



i agree with this.  i made that mistake in my early 20s.  very hard to get right without sounding like a complete cunt.  and there are plenty on here i think who won't even agree the gaiman and pratchett get it right!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

What is this _i am too oxford_ branding shit? What sort of knob thinks equality means scum like you rising to the top? Working class kids, get the fuck out of these places.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair, having looked at recent posts on her Twitter feed I got the impression that she was all for the 'I am too Oxford' campaign and thought that the 'we are too oxford' campaign, which seems to have disappeared, was all about white privileged students.



her trouble is that she can't be both but wants to be.  she wants to be the radical outsider, but also wants to have been an oxford student.  she loves that she went to oxford, but she doesn't want to love it.  she wants to throw off her background, but also revel in it.  i feel sorry for her sometimes, because i know a few activists from her background and they handle it well by not pretending to be anythign they're not.  it's so easy to do, but not when you're twisted up with weird values and contortions about your personal brand.  

then i read some of her nonsense and remember that she's a lying fantasist trading off pretending to be a radical, and i think _fuck 'er_.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What is this _i am too oxford_ branding shit? What sort of knob thinks equality means scum like you rising to the top? Working class kids, get the fuck out of these places.


I only saw the tumblr which was (at least to me) a photo essay with a number of people of colour writing their experiences on a white board. Racist experiences at worse and ignorant experiences at best. I read it as they were challenging those white privileged students who didn't think they should be at Oxford because of their skin tone.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

No one should be at oxford. Fuck every last one of them - white black or fucking agglomerations of volcanic dust that have developed turing brains, then used as slow memory work drones for a billion years, until one hero remembers, through love...etc


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> her trouble is that she can't be both but wants to be.  she wants to be the radical outsider, but also wants to have been an oxford student.  she loves that she went to oxford, but she doesn't want to love it.  she wants to throw off her background, but also revel in it.  i feel sorry for her sometimes, because i know a few activists from her background and they handle it well by not pretending to be anythign they're not.  it's so easy to do, but not when you're twisted up with weird values and contortions about your personal brand.
> 
> then i read some of her nonsense and remember that she's a lying fantasist trading off pretending to be a radical, and i think _fuck 'er_.


Is she really that radical though? I think she likes to view herself as radical, and for her circle she probably is, but in reality? Not so much. I feel sorry for her too, sometimes I think she does the right think but then I read about her trying to build her personal brand and it undoes any good that she's done.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No one should be at oxford. Fuck every last one of them - white black or fucking volcanic dust.


Do you think that Oxford - and the other universities of that ilk - should be shut?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Do you think that Oxford - and the other universities of that ilk - should be shut?


Into the ground.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Into the ground.


And the other universities, the redbricks, the concretes, the post-95s, them too?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And the other universities, the redbricks, the concretes, the post-95s, them too?


I'd like the oxbridge boycott that i mentioned above to extend to all universities.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'd like the oxbridge boycott that i mentioned above to extend to all universities.



besides, wikipedia has made university education all but pointless anyway


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'd like the oxbridge boycott that i mentioned above to extend to all universities.


Are you against university education altogether then?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Are you against university education altogether then?


No. I think all w/c kids should boycott it. Refuse to go. Refuse to apply.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think all w/c kids should boycott it. Refuse to go. Refuse to apply.


And what exactly is that supposed to achieve?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And what exactly is that supposed to achieve?


Fuck all. Except fucking up how the entire system works.

In getting a few w/c kids more into oxbridge - not much more than normal.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And what exactly is that supposed to achieve?


Seriously - a total collective refusal to engage with a system of education because you hate it and it reflects motivations that you reject, vs  oh well.


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

The PD magician section should threaten to make Oxford "disappear".


----------



## rekil (Mar 15, 2014)

Alan De Zanzibar


----------



## Balbi (Mar 16, 2014)

Rococo Ornamentation surely?


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

Colin The Fez


----------



## Balbi (Mar 16, 2014)

Johann Hari Potter


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

Penny And Troller

Not a very rich seam this tbh


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No one should be at oxford. Fuck every last one of them - white black or fucking agglomerations of volcanic dust that have developed turing brains, then used as slow memory work drones for a billion years, until one hero remembers, through love...etc


 
What about the Poly?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> Penny And Troller
> 
> Not a very rich seam this tbh



Aye, I peaked at Beastie Boys


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 16, 2014)

Ali Bongo


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is she really that radical though? I think she likes to view herself as radical, and for her circle she probably is, but in reality? Not so much. I feel sorry for her too, sometimes I think she does the right think but then I read about her trying to build her personal brand and it undoes any good that she's done.



no, she's not that radical at all, which is what i meant.  she might believe herself to be, she certainly positions herself that way, but she's not radical at all, she's a liberal.  she might occasional suggest that a revolution would be nice, that she's a socialist or anarchist, but when she does put across opinions, for the most part, they are pure reformism.  she engages with the state, seeking to moderate capitalism and patriarchy, rather than to abolish and rebuild.

some people seem a bit shocked by butchers' position on universities.  i think i might have been a few years ago.   but i can totally see his point.  university education doesn't do much for working class kids these days except land them with shitloads of debt and confuse them about their class position.  it sucks up the very best for the elite to co-opt, and saddles the rest with useless degrees and debt.  if i had my time again with the knowledge i have know, i'd not bother.  but i did literature and philosophy so it was a fairly pointless activity encouraged more by me not wanting to go out to work but not having a better idea of what i could have done.  now i realise that there are hundreds of things i could have done that would have been more useful that being semi-permanently stoned for four years.


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

LP said:
			
		

> Let's be clear: Oxford may be trying hard. But like other old, historically colonialist institutions of privilege, it is a racist place.


Not racist enough for you to leave, or decline the Oxford Union invite. 



			
				LP said:
			
		

> Who are we? People who are ambitious. People who expect to be in the top 10 to 1% of global society, either now or in a few years. People who are members of the Oxford Union or are invited to speak at the Oxford Union, or lucky enough to have been invited to speak at the Oxford Union


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 16, 2014)

We are the 1%.


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

So lucky to study and get invited to speak at racist institutions.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> So lucky to study and get invited to speak at racist institutions.



Like the climax of _V For Vendetta_ only with everyone in Frank rather than Guy masks


----------



## weepiper (Mar 16, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> some people seem a bit shocked by butchers' position on universities.  i think i might have been a few years ago.   but i can totally see his point.  university education doesn't do much for working class kids these days except land them with shitloads of debt and confuse them about their class position.  it sucks up the very best for the elite to co-opt, and saddles the rest with useless degrees and debt.  if i had my time again with the knowledge i have know, i'd not bother.



This is exactly how I feel about it tbh. I have a first-class degree from one of the 'good' universities and it's been 20% of fuck all use to me; I have only ever worked in a shop since graduating and I've just about managed to pay the interest off my student loans so I'm back at the level they were when I took them out 17 years ago. I won't be encouraging my kids to go.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

I must admit, I'm in two minds about this. I couldn't have done what I do without a degree in engineering, however I do think I'd have been better served by doing an apprenticeship first. I'd think carefully about encouraging anyone going to uni straight out of school these days. 

Thanks tories for fucking the education system up so much.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 16, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> no, she's not that radical at all, which is what i meant.  she might believe herself to be, she certainly positions herself that way, but she's not radical at all, she's a liberal.  she might occasional suggest that a revolution would be nice, that she's a socialist or anarchist, but when she does put across opinions, for the most part, they are pure reformism.  she engages with the state, seeking to moderate capitalism and patriarchy, rather than to abolish and rebuild.
> 
> some people seem a bit shocked by butchers' position on universities.  i think i might have been a few years ago.   but i can totally see his point.  university education doesn't do much for working class kids these days except land them with shitloads of debt and confuse them about their class position.  it sucks up the very best for the elite to co-opt, and saddles the rest with useless degrees and debt.  if i had my time again with the knowledge i have know, i'd not bother.  but i did literature and philosophy so it was a fairly pointless activity encouraged more by me not wanting to go out to work but not having a better idea of what i could have done.  now i realise that there are hundreds of things i could have done that would have been more useful that being semi-permanently stoned for four years.



tbh I can fully see where he's coming from. Higher education is just a racket. I've got a degree and it's been not been much help to me either. It's strange because for a lot of students having a degree will do nothing to help them in the labour market at all but they still persist in applying and going. A degree functions a lot like a big class dividing line. It's almost like people just paying a certain amount just to be in the middle classes or to call themselves "educated" or whatever.

I had a feeling this would be the case when I applied for uni but I but I convinced myself that education for educations sake is a principle worth defending, and it's worth going just so you can learn about politics and so on, which is valuable in itself. Looking back the sad thing about this is I implicitly assumed that going to uni was the only way to actually learn that stuff, and that the very idea that you can do something else more practical and enjoyable and _still_ have opportunity to engage in politics hadn't occurred to me.

My parents definitely played a part in this because they came from very marginalised backgrounds and got into uni in the 1970's and managed to wangle stable public sector jobs and a decent standard of living out of it. To them going to uni was big thing economically  but it was also a something they took a lot of pride in, social mobility and all that. I could never quite get them to understand that a university education in my lifetime is vastly different to how they experienced things back in the day.

As a kid I just wanted to play rugby or be in a rock band, to invoke a bit of Laurie Penny I wanted to do music and PE for GCSE and my teachers just said straight up no, because I was half-decent academically. I'd have been much happier in a lot of ways if I had done that than going to uni.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 16, 2014)

that's part of it.  for a while i was proud of going to uni, even a shit one, because no-one in my family had gone to uni before.  my dad reckoned that an education would mean i didn't have to work on the trains like him and his father.  heh, if i'd had the fucking self- discipline to do the trains i'd be laughing right now.  



Delroy Booth said:


> To them going to uni was big thing economically  but it was also a something they took a lot of pride in, social mobility and all that.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 16, 2014)

I find it sad that people (without realising that a lot of them are going to end up like me, anyway) can attach a status value to formal education.   And it being a part of this aspiration towards/delusion of actually being 'middle class,' as el-ahrairah talked about earlier.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

My parents were very aspirational about the whole uni thing, mostly because they'd had no opportunities, were from rural working class families and had virtually nothing. From a young age, around 10 or so, I can remember my mum saying 'you will go to university' as if that was the only avenue open to any of us. And to be honest, nobody ever said that there were other avenues open - and by the time I actually had to decide uni became my way of escaping anyway. 

But the university education that was denied to my parents wasn't the university education I ended up with. I was the first in my family to go the university and my parents were justifiably proud of that. I'm really not sure I'd go now.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 16, 2014)

For those of you who wish you hadn't gone to university (I think that quite often myself) what do you think you would have been better off doing?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm glad I went, at 24 in my home town. After work/jail/streets/sofasurf/dole/work since 16 it was a brilliant doss to spend 3 years studying poetry and writing. I never had any thought of it being employment though, not poetry. Wouldn't do it with the way fees are now. 30k debt wouldn't be worth it.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> My parents were very aspirational about the whole uni thing, mostly because they'd had no opportunities, were from rural working class families and had virtually nothing. From a young age, around 10 or so, I can remember my mum saying 'you will go to university' as if that was the only avenue open to any of us. And to be honest, nobody ever said that there were other avenues open - and by the time I actually had to decide uni became my way of escaping anyway.
> 
> But the university education that was denied to my parents wasn't the university education I ended up with. I was the first in my family to go the university and my parents were justifiably proud of that. I'm really not sure I'd go now.



Not saying there's anything wrong with aspiration per se, so don't get me wrong.  

I would be the first to go in my family (and I'm getting on!), however, I could graduate and realistically just end up doing the kind of job I'm doing now only tens of thousands of pounds in debt.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Not saying there's anything wrong with aspiration per se, so don't get me wrong.
> 
> I would be the first to go in my family (and I'm getting on!), however, I could graduate and realistically just end up doing the kind of job I'm doing now only tens of thousands of pounds in debt.


I know


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is she really that radical though? I think she likes to view herself as radical, and for her circle she probably is, but in reality? Not so much.


My sister has an english and history degree and works in insurance. Last week she took her €135k a year boss aside and gave him a dressing down over his behaviour and bullying of women in the office. He got sacked on friday. That's a little bit radicalism - one bit more radicalism than anything LP has ever done anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> My sister has an english and history degree and works in insurance. Last week she took her €135k a year boss aside and gave him a dressing down over his behaviour and bullying of women in the office. He got sacked on friday. That's a little bit radicalism - one bit more radicalism than anything LP has ever done anyway.


Love it  Good for her - and way more radical than anything LP has done.


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Love it  Good for her - and way more radical than anything LP has done.


Not a one-off either, she has a solid track record of doing that kind of thing.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 16, 2014)

Jesus Christ. I mean really?

*The top 30 young people in digital media: Nos 30-11*

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/mar/16/top-30-young-people-digital-media-nos-30-11?CMP=twt_gu


> 22. Laurie Penny
> Age: 27.
> Who: Writer.
> Following: 88.2K on Twitter.
> ...


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2014)

.She won't be happy about being beaten by Kid President.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 16, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Not saying there's anything wrong with aspiration per se, so don't get me wrong.
> 
> I would be the first to go in my family (and I'm getting on!), however, I could graduate and realistically just end up doing the kind of job I'm doing now only tens of thousands of pounds in debt.


I count myself very lucky that I graduated (from a polytechnic) just before student loans came in and before tuition fees.  First and last of my family to graduate, although that's no indication of ability given the handful of HNDs among the others.  Edited to add:  And no, I don't regret going.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> For those of you who wish you hadn't gone to university (I think that quite often myself) what do you think you would have been better off doing?



don't know really.  i initially planned that after my a-levels i would sack everything else off and go and join a protest camp and see where life took me after that.  if i'd been mentally healthier i would have done that.  but uni was a good option for free, given that what i primarily wanted was to not have to get up in the morning.  if i'd had any ambitions or aspirations greater than getting stoned or perhaps one day writing a bit, then maybe i'd have made different decisions.  i wish that, at the time, i'd had the knowledge and mental strength to go and find something useful to do.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> Not a one-off either, she has a solid track record of doing that kind of thing.


She's my hero today


----------



## weepiper (Mar 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> For those of you who wish you hadn't gone to university (I think that quite often myself) what do you think you would have been better off doing?



I should have used the NVQ I got at agricultural college the year before and got a job as a countryside ranger.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is she really that radical though? I think she likes to view herself as radical, and for her circle she probably is, but in reality? Not so much. I feel sorry for her too, sometimes I think she does the right think but then I read about her trying to build her personal brand and it undoes any good that she's done.



There was a video on the previous thread that sums her up perfectly. She's giving a talk to some oxford types, government advisers, judges, barristers, in her own words _ambitious people_. And she says she's a revolutionary socialist. And they give her a little round of applause. And she smiles. It tells you everything you need to know about the role she plays.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 17, 2014)

Twelve years ago I was a train driver earning £30,000 to £35,000pa, owned my own mortgage and no other debt.
 Today I have two degrees, £35,000 of debt and a rented house and I earn less than the living wage.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 17, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Twelve years ago I was a train driver earning £30,000 to £35,000pa, owned my own mortgage and no other debt.
> Today I have two degrees, £35,000 of debt and a rented house and I earn less than the living wage.


But by Jove I bet you are full of _ambition_ and _spunk_!


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> <snip> Today I have two degrees, £35,000 of debt and a rented house and I earn less than the living wage.


If you had your time again, would you still make the same choice?  The thing is, I may not have made direct use of my degree, but bits of it have certainly been extremely useful.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> If you had your time again, would you still make the same choice?  The thing is, I may not have made direct use of my degree, but bits of it have certainly been extremely useful.


In an instant.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> For those of you who wish you hadn't gone to university (I think that quite often myself) what do you think you would have been better off doing?


My point is not about it being _worth _going to university but about a class refusal to do so (however fanciful and forgetting the reality that w/c class kids are now faced with debt/education choices). And to make the calculation whether its worth it or not is to have already abandoned that refusal.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> My point is not about it being _worth _going to university but about a class refusal to do so (however fanciful and forgetting the reality that w/c class kids are now faced with debt/education choices). And to make the calculation whether its worth it or not is to have already abandoned that refusal.


You seem to be assuming that "university" has to mean Oxbridge - what I went to was a well respected poly (a better reputation for modern languages than the university in the same city), although it's been called a university since the 1990s.  BTW I'd also claim that the chance to leave the area I'd more or less grown up in was almost as helpful, albeit in a different way, as any of the course material.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> You seem to be assuming that "university" has to mean Oxbridge - what I went to was a well respected poly (a better reputation for modern languages than the university in the same city), although it's been called a university since the 1990s.  BTW I'd also claim that the chance to leave the area I'd more or less grown up in was almost as helpful, albeit in a different way, as any of the course material.


Tbh, my point rests on university _not _meaning oxbridge - it's not going to mess much up if people who would never have gone to oxbridge boycott it!  It's specifically the normal unis that i want people to refuse - en masse - to go to. Now i know that's fantasy and isn't going to happen - i can even think of loads of good _individual _reasons to go - but,i was asked what i'd ideally like to happen (i think! Need to check).


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Tbh, my point rests on university _not _meaning oxbridge - it's not going to mess much up if people who would never have gone to oxbridge boycott it!  <snip>


It might have made more of a difference at a time when there was a very clear split between universities and polytechnics (now muddied by the so-called new universities) - both equally demanding, but the latter had far more of a practical and technical bias and were also less elitist in intake.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

captainmission said:


> There was a video on the previous thread that sums her up perfectly. She's giving a talk to some oxford types, government advisers, judges, barristers, in her own words _ambitious people_. And she says she's a revolutionary socialist. And they give her a little round of applause. And she smiles. It tells you everything you need to know about the role she plays.



She's more cock sock than rev soc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> But by Jove I bet you are full of _ambition_ and _spunk_!



Only after he's spent a night down the docks, earning his less than minimum wage.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Only after he's spent a night down the docks, earning his less than minimum wage.



That's why I took up writing. The personal predilections of Plymouth's naval community are too vile even for one of my liberated tastes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> My point is not about it being _worth _going to university but about a class refusal to do so (however fanciful and forgetting the reality that w/c class kids are now faced with debt/education choices). And to make the calculation whether its worth it or not is to have already abandoned that refusal.



As a method of throwing a clog into the workings of the education machine, probably hard enough to break the machine (the function of which is, of course, predicated on a certain number of people making an economic calculation that higher ed will accrue more benefits than debts to them), it'd work really well.  If we look at how the academy has become managerialised - at how university no longer means learning how to think even in the limited sense that it originally did, but is merely a transaction between two parties - then refusing to enter the edifice, refusal to either implicitly or explicitly support it *or* the ideology(s) behind it, could only be beneficial to the class, either from the viewpoint that elements of the class were no longer being removed and potentially re-fashioned as members of the _bourgeoisie_, or the viewpoint of helping an edifice of domination to collapse under its' own weight.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> That's why I took up writing. The personal predilections of Plymouth's naval community are too vile even for one of my liberated tastes.



I once said to a sailor "so, rum, sodomy and the lash, eh?".  
He said "piss off! Way too vanilla!".


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I once said to a sailor "so, rum, sodomy and the lash, eh?".
> He said "piss off! Way too vanilla!".



Would this be the time to relate, in detail, the use submariners have for jars of chopped liver?


----------



## xenon (Mar 17, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's part of it.  for a while i was proud of going to uni, even a shit one, because no-one in my family had gone to uni before.  my dad reckoned that an education would mean i didn't have to work on the trains like him and his father.  heh, if i'd had the fucking self- discipline to do the trains i'd be laughing right now.



heh. Very similar to my situation. My dad always said, never work on the trains like he did, leaving school at 14. I couldn't have done anyway due to eyesight but you know... The general feeling then from teaching staff and alike, was a degree, any degree, was supposed to show employers you had some kind of application and ability to learn. Even if you hadn't gone to one of the Red Bricks. So I was gonna do History / Philosophy or English and Philosophy... Ended up doing Fine Art... I sometimes think I should have carried on with law post GCSE but I hate paperwork and whigs.

Currently unemployed. Have never earned the threshold to start paying back student loans (late 90's version.)


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Jesus.



Can people explain what is wrong with memorialising the dead of Syria, or is it the person doing the drawings,


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

the latter.


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

Crabapple did a load of shit "No to Nato" drawings very recently, now she reckons it'd be a good idea for them to bomb and bomb and bomb the fuck out of Syria til there's nothing left but freeeeeedom.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

> yes!!!!!!!!



Or was that one Penny?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 17, 2014)

It's like you're trying to transmit essential heart op information over a narrowband connection and Crabapple's hacked onto it and is beaming her crayon scrawlings as if that's actually fucking doing something. There's a limited space for media representation of certain issues, and her 'contribution' is a self-promoting gesture with absolutely nothing behind it beyond future engagement and profit. Not sickening, bit worth a spit in the gutter and a shake of the head.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Or was that one Penny?




that was penny cheering on the bombing of Libya


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

like butchers said, as individuals we all had good (or at least, convincing at the time) reasons to go.  but the system these days is designed to start someone off in debt with qualifications that aren't worth anything in the job market unless you're doing something specific that requires a certain degree.  i think in the days of the internet there is even less reason for a working class person to go to uni just for the sake of study.  you can study anything you like via the internet in ways that i couldn't dream of back in 1997 when i went. 

so a good response would be to fuck off the whole stupid game!.


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

That was Penny. This is that NATO thing.


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Like the climax of _V For Vendetta_ only with everyone in Frank rather than Guy masks



Did Frank ever express any political views?, saw him once, can't remember


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

this is a bit of a cause for discussion between me and the missus, actually.  she's a keen believer in the value of education and on the usefulness of having a bit of paper to impress people with your brainz, i think that a formal education is massively over-rated and is mis-sold to the working classes.  any fruit of this union will be the battleground on which our class values conflict


----------



## kebabking (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> As a method of throwing a clog into the workings of the education machine, probably hard enough to break the machine (the function of which is, of course, predicated on a certain number of people making an economic calculation that higher ed will accrue more benefits than debts to them), it'd work really well.  If we look at how the academy has become managerialised - at how university no longer means learning how to think even in the limited sense that it originally did, but is merely a transaction between two parties - then refusing to enter the edifice, refusal to either implicitly or explicitly support it *or* the ideology(s) behind it, could only be beneficial to the class, either from the viewpoint that elements of the class were no longer being removed and potentially re-fashioned as members of the _bourgeoisie_, or the viewpoint of helping an edifice of domination to collapse under its' own weight.



or, in much simpler terms, that the majority of those who leave university this year will (with luck) get a job at 21 flogging Sky TV for £16k having racked up £40k's worth of debt, whereas before the explosion of degrees given - without a comensurate explosion in the number of degree level jobs available - that same person would have got a job at age 18 flogging Sky TV for £16k with no debt.

its a swiz, a confidence trick - a rip-off. truth is, unless either of mine were going to do a high end course at a decent uni, i'm not sure i'd advise them to go. this of course pre-supposes that by then the price of a ticket to open the jobs page isn't a minimum of a 2.2 in Basket-Weaving and American Studies from the University of Penge...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> Did Frank ever express any political views?, saw him once, can't remember


 
Anarchy In Timperley?
I Said Hey You Mr Riot Policeman?
Football Is Really Fantasic?

he's one of us.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 17, 2014)

Interestingly enough I had a polish mate to stay over the weekend and he said that in the UK it's far easier to get a job without qualifications than in Poland where most jobs seem to require degrees.


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> tbh I can fully see where he's coming from. Higher education is just a racket. I've got a degree and it's been not been much help to me either. It's strange because for a lot of students having a degree will do nothing to help them in the labour market at all but they still persist in applying and going. A degree functions a lot like a big class dividing line. It's almost like people just paying a certain amount just to be in the middle classes or to call themselves "educated" or whatever.
> 
> I had a feeling this would be the case when I applied for uni but I but I convinced myself that education for educations sake is a principle worth defending, and it's worth going just so you can learn about politics and so on, which is valuable in itself. Looking back the sad thing about this is I implicitly assumed that going to uni was the only way to actually learn that stuff, and that the very idea that you can do something else more practical and enjoyable and _still_ have opportunity to engage in politics hadn't occurred to me.
> 
> ...



This maybe be the experience of many urbanites, (though there are plenty of 'success' stories on here), but looking at the careers of some of my peers from the 92 cohort, many have done very 'well' indeed many now have managerial posts, or are in professions, etc. though, of course with the massive costs incurred by todays students it would be different now, but many will still 'achieve' their goals.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Would this be the time to relate, in detail, the use submariners have for jars of chopped liver?



Not really, except maybe to explain that trawlermen use plaice for the same purpose.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

kebabking said:


> its a swiz, a confidence trick - a rip-off. truth is, unless either of mine were going to do a high end course at a decent uni, i'm not sure i'd advise them to go. this of course pre-supposes that by then the price of a ticket to open the jobs page isn't a minimum of a 2.2 in Basket-Weaving and American Studies from the University of Penge...


 
The University Of Penge is a respectable institution,I'll have you know.

All my graduates have a 100% employment record in the booming Fried Chicken Retail sector.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> Can people explain what is wrong with memorialising the dead of Syria, or is it the person doing the drawings,



It's the person doing the drawings for the purpose she's doing them - not only to memorialise, but to *sell*.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 17, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Anarchy In Timperley?
> I Said Hey You Mr Riot Policeman?
> Football Is Really Fantasic?
> 
> he's one of us.


He was a bastard to Little Frank


----------



## weepiper (Mar 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> but looking at the careers of some of my peers from the 92 cohort, many have done very well



Many of mine have too. The middle class ones.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> He was a bastard to Little Frank


 
Bakunin didn't like Jews much, but we let him off.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> You seem to be assuming that "university" has to mean Oxbridge - what I went to was a well respected poly (a better reputation for modern languages than the university in the same city), although it's been called a university since the 1990s.  BTW I'd also claim that the chance to leave the area I'd more or less grown up in was almost as helpful, albeit in a different way, as any of the course material.


This. Leaving was the best thing I ever did. Ever.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not really, except maybe to explain that trawlermen use plaice for the same purpose.



There's a reason why the flounder is nicknamed the 'Fisherman's Friend.'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 17, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Bakunin didn't like Jews much, but we let him off.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Many of mine have too. The middle class ones.


 
it's funny, but i look at my small group of friends from the shit ex-poly i studied at.  the only person doing alright is the one with the private education and wealthy parents.  everyone else is poorly paid, unemployed, or in temp work.  fair play to the guy, i don't begrudge him his wealth cos he works hard and he's a right clever lad, but class will out innit!


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I should have used the NVQ I got at agricultural college the year before and got a job as a countryside ranger.




highly prized career these days, lots of phd's applying, etc.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>


 
*shakes fist*  i see what you did there.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 17, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's funny, but i look at my small group of friends from the shit ex-poly i studied at.  the only person doing alright is the one with the private education and wealthy parents.  everyone else is poorly paid, unemployed, or in temp work.  fair play to the guy, i don't begrudge him his wealth cos he works hard and he's a right clever lad, but class will out innit!



Me and my mate both got firsts. I still work in a shop on barely above minimum wage. She is in a senior position earning above £50k working for the Auditor General. My mum was an admin temp most of her working life. Her mum was a headmistress.


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's the person doing the drawings for the purpose she's doing them - not only to memorialise, but to *sell*.




not defending her, but didn't all the 'war artists' ultimately sell their work/be commissioned?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> not defending her, but didn't all the 'war artists' ultimately sell their work/be commissioned?


What's a 'war artist'?


----------



## xenon (Mar 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Many of mine have too. The middle class ones.



I think this is it. Opportunities seeing other possibilities and being able to move into those circles. Even role models, though I hate that phrase. Connections in the lower rungs of establishment...

Anyway last time the thing about the costs came up. I remember Butcher's calling me an idiot because I said I'd probably still go to university were I 18 again. Purely based on the 18 YO me wouldn't have been able to get a job anyway. Personal circustmance blah, blah... I have changed my mind. I can learn what I need to for potential work off the internet, ebooks etc. The other stuff university gives you, social stuff, meeting new people, sure that's good but it's not 40 grand's worth of good.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What's a 'war artist'?



It's not unusual for military units to have either a soldier or attached civilian who does sketches and/or paintings of major events in a unit's history. Nowadays they tend not to turn up in the front line, but they often used to do that and produce artwork based on what they saw during an action. Go inot any officer's mess or regimental museum and you'll find at least one painting commemorating some battle or other from wars gone by.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> It's not unusual for military units to have either a soldier or attached civilian who does sketches and/or paintings of major events in a unit's history. Nowadays they tend not to turn up in the front line, but they often used to do that and produce artwork based on what they saw during an action. Go inot any officer's mess or regimental museum and you'll find at least one painting commemorating some battle or other from wars gone by.


Cheers, i was really asking why we should respect such a notion though. (Or Jack Russel's watercolours for that matter!)


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> not defending her, but didn't all the 'war artists' ultimately sell their work/be commissioned?


If you mean the official war artists contracted by the government for either of the world wars then their work was produced for propaganda purposes a lot of the time. But there were also unofficial artists, those who painted what they saw at the front for whatever reason and who knows what happened to those works? I doubt they were produced with the express intent of being sold though - hardly the most pressing thought at the front.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

This page is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_official_war_artists

Crabapple's not a war artist though is she? She's a conflict tourist, she's monetising whatever she draws/paints with the express intent of monetising. How much is she giving back to Syria after monetising the dead?


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> This page is interesting:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_official_war_artists
> 
> Crabapple's not a war artist though is she? *She's a conflict tourist*, she's monetising whatever she draws/paints with the express intent of monetising. How much is she giving back to Syria after monetising the dead?



I like your description, though I don't think it fully conveys the extent to which she is cynically exploiting the conflict and those individuals killed etc in it. I'd suggest conflict vulture or conflict vampire is nearer the truth


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

captainmission said:


> There was a video on the previous thread that sums her up perfectly. She's giving a talk to some oxford types, government advisers, judges, barristers, in her own words _ambitious people_. And she says she's a revolutionary socialist. And they give her a little round of applause. And she smiles. It tells you everything you need to know about the role she plays.


PD on the case here.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> I like your description, though I don't think it fully conveys the extent to which she is cynically exploiting the conflict and those individuals killed etc in it. I'd suggest conflict vulture or conflict vampire is nearer the truth


I think she's used by publications to a certain degree, that said, she has allowed herself to be exploited in that way.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> PD on the case here.



Can't see it


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> This page is interesting:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_official_war_artists
> 
> Crabapple's not a war artist though is she? She's a conflict tourist, she's monetising whatever she draws/paints with the express intent of monetising. How much is she giving back to Syria after monetising the dead?



Also, the term "war artist" can be applied wider than the idea of someone appointed by a state as an official propagandist, so someone who depicts scenes of war in an artistic way which actually attempts to add something to our understanding.

Examples would be Picasso's Guernica, or maybe Ralph Steadman's stuff from Biafra (which I can't find any examples of). Crabapple's "work" though is simply kitsch which says nothing and adds nothing to anyone's understanding.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 17, 2014)

crabapple's not a war artist. she hasn't lived through the reality of war, she doesnt know wtf she's talking about, she's living in new york somewhere and getting paid by rich liberals


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think she's used by publications to a certain degree, that said, she has allowed herself to be exploited in that way.



She may well be used to a degree, as are many others discussed here, which just makes their claims to radical outsiderness more ridiculous and cynical/comical


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Can't see it


Try now. The text is a bit shitty, but _deliberately_ so.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 17, 2014)

What's the war time equivalent of an ambulance chaser? Molly Crabapple is that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> crabapple's not a war artist. she hasn't lived through the reality of war, she doesnt know wtf she's talking about, she's living in new york somewhere and getting paid by rich liberals



closest to the sharp end was a nicking at Occupy NY (which LP declined to face)


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

She's after Banksy's market $$$$$$$


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> closest to the sharp end was a nicking at Occupy NY (which LP declined to face)


 
"not going back out there to get arrested just for journalism"


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What's the war time equivalent of an ambulance chaser? Molly Crabapple is that.




in medieval times there were people who would go onto the battlefield after a big engagement and loot anything they could from the corpses. Given that said armies will have been burning thir crops, stealing their food and generally acting the cunt they may have had some justification...

anywaythere's a special term for them, but I cannot recall it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> in medieval times there were people who would go onto the battlefield after a big engagement and loot anything they could from the corpses. Given that said armies will have been burning thir crops, stealing their food and generally acting the cunt they may have had some justification...
> 
> anywaythere's a special term for them, but I cannot recall it.



Camp followers?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> closest to the sharp end was a nicking at Occupy NY (which LP declined to face)


At least she had the bottle to be nicked. I seem to remember a certain LP stating that she wasn't prepared to do that.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Camp followers?


*Must resist*


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Camp followers?




could be, but I think that refers in general to the loose collection of sex workers, ad hoc armourers, hostlers and etc that would trail an army behind the baggage train. whereas there was a specific word or term. Not crows.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> not defending her, but didn't all the 'war artists' ultimately sell their work/be commissioned?



She's not a "war artist", she's a liberal who makes a living (to borrow a phrase from The Clash) "turning rebellion into money".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> This page is interesting:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_official_war_artists
> 
> Crabapple's not a war artist though is she? She's a conflict tourist, she's monetising whatever she draws/paints with the express intent of monetising. How much is she giving back to Syria after monetising the dead?



"Conflict tourist" hits the nail on the head.

She's monetising the struggles of others.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> could be, but I think that refers in general to the loose collection of sex workers, ad hoc armourers, hostlers and etc that would trail an army behind the baggage train. whereas there was a specific word or term. Not crows.



Yeah, I was thinking camp followers, but having just looked them up, your def is right.

I think though that in least in some cases they were groups who more or less followed the armies around, preying on them after battles rather than "opportunistic locals".


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 17, 2014)

vultures?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm recovering from food poisoning btw, hence my early afternoon postings.


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> in medieval times there were people who would go onto the battlefield after a big engagement and loot anything they could from the corpses. Given that said armies will have been burning thir crops, stealing their food and generally acting the cunt they may have had some justification...
> 
> anywaythere's a special term for them, but I cannot recall it.




I wonder if there was an actual occupation, rather than as an opportunist, scavenger?


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

This imbecile. Dearie me.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> in medieval times there were people who would go onto the battlefield after a big engagement and loot anything they could from the corpses. Given that said armies will have been burning thir crops, stealing their food and generally acting the cunt they may have had some justification...
> 
> anywaythere's a special term for them, but I cannot recall it.



It was usually the infantrymen from the winning side that did this. Isn't it just 'scavengers'?


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> vultures?





andysays said:


> I like your description, though I don't think it fully conveys the extent to which she is cynically exploiting the conflict and those individuals killed etc in it. *I'd suggest conflict vulture* or conflict vampire is nearer the truth





treelover said:


> I wonder if there was an actual occupation, rather than as an opportunist, scavenger?





andysays said:


> ...I think though that in least in some cases they were groups who more or less followed the armies around, preying on them after battles rather than "opportunistic locals".



So are you two just going around scavenging bits from my posts?  

BTW, there's a reference in Les Miserables about one of the characters looting on the battlefield of Waterloo, but I can't quite remember if he was an opportunist or a full time looter. I think the latter, though I might be mis-remembering


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It was usually the infantrymen from the winning side that did this. Isn't it just 'scavengers'?



after small and portable items of wealth, or gear better than their own and of the right size. No the term reffered to people, non army affiliated (even loosely a la camp follower) who would loot after dark.

it'll come to me at some point.


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

> The memorable images here are not those of victory and celebration, and the poem does not provide much regarding the feelings of the victors. Instead, the victory is defined by the extent of the waste and devastation, like at the end of action movies when no one has anything to say and no real perspective. "They left behind them to share the corpses / the dark-coated swarthy raven, / horn-beaked, and the gray-coated / eagle, white-tailed, to possess the carrion, / the greedy war-hawk and that gray wild beast, / the wolf in the forest" (60-65). These are the battlefield scavengers who appear repeatedly in early English poetry.
> 
> http://public.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/medieval/brunanburg.html



from the Dark Ages, probably as old as warfare, but in this case animals/birds, etc.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's not a "war artist", she's a liberal who makes a living (to borrow a phrase from The Clash) "turning rebellion into money".



But does she wear Burton's suits?


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

Alexander McQueen gowns.



			
				LP said:
			
		

> Two weeks ago, I stayed with an impossibly glamorous friend [Crabapple] who insisted upon dressing me up in her latest acquisition, an Alexander McQueen gown.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> "not going back out there to get arrested just for journalism"




thing with that one was, if she had been nicked it'd be temp visa suspended and next flight home, plus you aren't going to be allowed back ever.

Having that happen would have been principled, but it would get in the way of further thrilling NY reportage about finding a faded Obama campaign jersey.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> But does she wear Burton's suits?



She wears a Burtons Trilby, by the looks of it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> She wears a Burtons Trilby, by the looks of it.


its no cor blimey hat is it


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> This imbecile. Dearie me.



Not the worst post on her feed either.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its no cor blimey hat is it



Laurie's claims that her old man is a dustman have now been disproven, but it's worth recalling that it was actually his trousers rather than his hat which she was claiming as being "cor blimey"


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> Laurie's claims that her old man is a dustman have now been disproven, but it's worth recalling that it was actually his trousers rather than his hat which she was claiming as being "cor blimey"



thats right, it was a dustmans hat was it not. But if 'my old man said follow the van(guard)' then surely its an appropriate recruitment song for newer PD cadres


----------



## J Ed (Mar 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> This imbecile. Dearie me.



This bullshit techno-libertarianism is becoming 'common sense' to a lot of people. Punch a google glass wearing cunt in the face.

There's no point striking since machines will just replace you, give blowjobs to data scientists at corporations which avoid taxes while taking in massive subsidies or die by the road side. Anything else is getting in the way of progress.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

we are all neo-luddites now


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> This bullshit techno-libertarianism is becoming 'common sense' to a lot of people. Punch a google glass wearing cunt in the face.
> 
> There's no point striking since machines will just replace you, just give blowjobs to data scientists at corporations which avoid taxes while taking in massive subsidies or die by the road side. Anything else is getting in the way of progress.


The thing is, it's capital whose thieved the social/general intellect embodied in technology rather than boffins being white suited angels bringing light to the dark.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> Laurie's claims that her old man is a dustman have now been disproven, but it's worth recalling that it was actually his trousers rather than his hat which she was claiming as being "cor blimey"


Ive never forgotten this for some reason
"My old’s man a duke, he wears a dukell hat, he’s never met the working class or seen a council flat"


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2014)

well thats exactly shown by how _refinement in process _is more valued than direct innovation. Refinements in process can be used to cheapen the labour value of a widget, wheras innovation outside of it challenges existing monopoly. If you see what I mean


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 17, 2014)




----------



## emanymton (Mar 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> after small and portable items of wealth, or gear better than their own and of the right size. No the term reffered to people, non army affiliated (even loosely a la camp follower) who would loot after dark.
> 
> it'll come to me at some point.


The phrase that has popped into my head is bone picker, but I probably just made that up myself.


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

This could be a laugh. It's on at 7:30. It'd be kewl if LP featured.


----------



## benedict (Mar 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>




It's all about Laurie, Laurie, Laurie, as usual. Re: the discussion earlier, THIS is her form of radicalism, whatever situates *her* as radical. Hence why she has barely a passing interest in class issues. 

Must add though that Frostrup does make a right arse of herself by coming up with shit like this: "If your boyfriend hasn't yet decided what sex to go for, let alone an individual to direct his passion towards, he shouldn't be attempting a long-term union."


----------



## weepiper (Mar 17, 2014)

All the most _interesting_ people are bisexual and polyamorous.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 17, 2014)

weepiper said:


> All the most _interesting_ people are bisexual and polyamorous.



Bisexuality is boring nowadays it needs the extra edge of polamory

ETA: I used to go to school with a lass called Polly Amery if only we had known when we were ten!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

polyamory really gets on my tits.  in my day we had open relationships and that was that.  *thumps stick on ground*


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2014)

My girlfriends, boyfriends and I are so edgy, we're bored with vanilla polyamory and can only get turned on if we've got weird molds like dictyostelium and about a ton of fruit and veg watching.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 17, 2014)

if i'you're not doing race play and fisting with three partners and six strangers you're part of the problem.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 17, 2014)

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS, LIKE A REVOLUBRICANT


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2014)

captainmission said:


> There was a video on the previous thread that sums her up perfectly. She's giving a talk to some oxford types, government advisers, judges, barristers, in her own words _ambitious people_. And she says she's a revolutionary socialist. And they give her a little round of applause. And she smiles. It tells you everything you need to know about the role she plays.





Jesus fucking wept! 

Cunt!


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

there's an arguement on my facebook feed with someone (whose white housemate has dreads) saying it's not OK for white people to have dreads


----------



## Belushi (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's an arguement on my facebook feed with someone (whose white housemate has dreads) saying it's not OK for white people to have dreads


 
How about black folk with straight hair?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

someone said:

"It is ok to have dreads - grow up"

Her reply: 

"says white person to people of colour"


----------



## J Ed (Mar 18, 2014)

Didn't vikings have dreadlocks?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

On the anelka/dieudonne thing Richard Seymour was on about (cant remember it was here or the other thread), my colleague at work started talking about him today (shes kenyan)

she was absolutely disgusted by him, saying that as a black person he should know what it was like to experience racism, because of what she's experienced here, that it was an insult and disrespectful etc, and that she found it disgusting and that you didn't even have to have been to school to know what it was about

it's so easy on the left to get into this bubble of writing off our friends and workmates who are not into politics as non-political and imagine that most of society need to be "given a lead" when actually it's the left that needs to be given a lead tbh


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

id love some of these intersectionalists to come and experience life outside their cosy little bubble.

she also said "if it happened to him he'd be jumping up and down" which would probably horrify them


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's an arguement on my facebook feed with someone (whose white housemate has dreads) saying it's not OK for white people to have dreads


 
when i had dreads i got more love for them from black people than i ever did from white people.  looking back now i think i might have been being patronised however.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> someone said:
> 
> "It is ok to have dreads - grow up"
> 
> ...


the long winter nighrts must fly by.....


----------



## rekil (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> someone said:
> 
> "It is ok to have dreads - grow up"
> 
> ...


I was looking for a vid of a dreadlocked Irish guy doing improv reggae with a local fellow doing beatbox in Goa or someplace but I couldn't find it and came across this intersectionality nightmare instead. A really white englishwoman entertaining Indian people with Irish dancing.



Spoiler


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2014)

J Ed said:


> For those of you who wish you hadn't gone to university (I think that quite often myself) what do you think you would have been better off doing?



I was definitely better off doing an apprenticeship than any of the kids I knew who went to uni from school (though tbh that's not very many). By the time I'd served my time I was earning pretty much double what they were in their first jobs. 

I'm glad I went later in life though - with eyes wide open with regards to how little it would really help my employment prospects and how much debt I'd end up with. I wouldn't have known what to do if I'd gone at 18 (probably would have done some kind of engineering degree) and definitely wouldn't have appreciated it as much. 

I think unless they desperately wanted to do a particular degree or had specific talents that could only be realised at uni I'd recommend that kids got a trade and then went to uni later in life, when they'd experienced a bit of life, knew what they wanted to learn about and could really appreciate being allowed to study pretty much exactly what they wanted to (though that's probably not the case for many at uni - I've been lucky there) full time.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

there was a statesman article on the politics of black hair recently- tangenitally related. It wasn't mental though, it made sense. Unlike the no dredds for whitey idea


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> there was a statesman article on the politics of black hair recently- tangenitally related. It wasn't mental though, it made sense. Unlike the no dredds for whitey idea



Was that the one where some woman was arguing that she had POC status because her hair was really frizzy, like what all black people's is?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

no, that one was the apotheosis of twittersectionalism though.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2014)

New Statesman liberal Sarah Ditum doesn't like the expansion of "No Platform"  to non-fascists: http://www.newstatesman.com/sarah-d...out-attacking-individuals-deemed-disagreeable


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

maybe i need to check my privilege but i really do have to wonder what sort of racism these people have experienced if they're getting upset about white people wearing dreads.

the fact is that huge numbers of people have experienced some sort of discrimination, racism, sexism, or have loved ones that have, or even something like being unable to find a job because of mental health issues or a disability.

rather than the idea that people dont understand and shouldnt even try because its oppressive, its far useful to like talk about ideas and experiences, ways of dealing with it etc.

My old housemate went to belly dancing every week, she was chinese, it isn't a part of chinese culture as far as I'm aware. Does she need to check her privilege?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> New Statesman liberal Sarah Ditum doesn't like the expansion of "No Platform"  to non-fascists: http://www.newstatesman.com/sarah-d...out-attacking-individuals-deemed-disagreeable



Barring a well known and widely publicised columnist like Bindel, who does have form for being a hateful despicable speaker and writer, is akin to letting fascists win 

"If you don't like the mean people, don't share a platform with them" is playground idiocy. Yes, let them have a platform and be right but don't make a fuss


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Barring a well known and widely publicised columnist like Bindel is akin to letting fascists win



The other way of looking at it is that it's faintly comical that NUS or some intersectionalists on twitter actually think that a well known columnist can be meaningfully no platformed in the first place.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

voltaire lives


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The other way of looking at it is that it's faintly comical that NUS or some intersectionalists on twitter actually think that a well known columnist can be meaningfully no platformed in the first place.



I reckon said columnist and her friends getting a right bee in her bonnet about it is even more comical


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

nice elision of silencing  Zionist ranter with silencing a woman talking about feminism. Context free freedom of speech


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

"this conference believes Julie Bindel is vile" though, . That'll sort the problem/How could she possibly have taken that in the spirit it was meant. It's hilarious an NUS conference is even doing that.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

it's hilarious NUS conferences even think they are relevant to anything. Most students just see them as a thing to get discounts


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> nice elision of silencing  Zionist ranter with silencing a woman talking about feminism. Context free freedom of speech



Is there any reason to think that either should be silenced? It seems to me that on this issue, the usually useless Ditum has something of a point. No platform was never about shutting up every dick we don't like simply because they are dicks and we don't like them or their views.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> it's hilarious NUS conferences even think they are relevant to anything. Most students just see them as a thing to get discounts



A step on the ladder to political stardom


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2014)

And it's hard not to crack a grin at someone from Feminists Against Censorship arguing for no platforming other feminists.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/a...e-intellectuals-are-driving-the-students-mad/

This Alan Johnson bloke's a proper turd though


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2014)

Balbi said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/a...e-intellectuals-are-driving-the-students-mad/
> 
> This Alan Johnson bloke's a proper turd though



Yes, of course he is.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

Balbi said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/a...e-intellectuals-are-driving-the-students-mad/
> 
> This Alan Johnson bloke's a proper turd though


 
fuck both sides of that "argument".


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

Nobody disses Judith Butler


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

what a stupid title anyway

"the intellectuals are driving the students mad"

er seriously


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

thuggery lol, a light boying off, nothing more.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what a stupid title anyway
> 
> "the intellectuals are driving the students mad"
> 
> er seriously



KNOWLEDGE AS COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2014)

How pathetic, "I've been on this campus ten years" indeed. You'd never tell would you?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

to be fair i can't stand most of that BDS stuff and this:



> He might have been writing about the student at the end of the video who hints darkly about dirty “Israeli money” not being “wanted here.”


 
is a bit 

but seriously, if you want to do a proper critique of this stuff then do so without whinging about swearing and making yourself look like a dick


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> to be fair i can't stand most of that BDS stuff and this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




thats the usual 'criticisms of israel is anti-semitism' done with a little more tact than mad mel innit


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> thats the usual 'criticisms of israel is anti-semitism' done with a little more tact than mad mel innit


 
well sometimes as has been discussed on here, they are. but he makes himself look like such a pompous dickhead - "thuggery" etc

also, his criticisms of ilan pappe (who actually uses morris's work in his books) and butler - wtf.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

oh yeah "Ive been on this campus 10 years"

like that's an achievement??


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

> Diana Buttu of Harvard Kennedy School teaches that Israel is guilty of “ethnic cleans[ing]” and “massacre.”


 
what's wrong with that, it's indisputable isn't it?

And when did butler say that hamas and hezbollah were progressive? from what i know of her work, that sounds like bollocks


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

Ditum's used a wah wah the academics made the students hate me as a keystone for her argument for one of her journalist mates going wah wah a proportion of people who disagree with me hate me and are taking nigh on meaningless action because of it.


----------



## rekil (Mar 18, 2014)

.


frogwoman said:


> oh yeah "Ive been on this campus 10 years"
> 
> like that's an achievement??


Full kit wanker into the bargain. In a concession to sensibleness, he has his jumper on underneath. You don't wanna catch your death of cold when you're smashing the zionist murder machine on the west coast of Ireland.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And when did butler say that hamas and hezbollah were progressive? from what i know of her work, that sounds like bollocks



It's a quote taken out of context. http://mondoweiss.net/2012/08/judit...at-is-not-associated-with-state-violence.html



> My remarks on Hamas and Hezbollah have been taken out of context and badly distort my established and continuing views. I have always been in favor of non-violent political action, and this principle has consistently characterized my views. I was asked by a member of an academic audience a few years ago whether I thought Hamas and Hezbollah belonged to “the global left” and I replied with two points. My first point was merely descriptive: those political organizations define themselves as anti-imperialist, and anti-imperialism is one characteristic of the global left, so on that basis one could describe them as part of the global left. My second point was then critical: as with any group on the left, one has to decide whether one is for that group or against that group, and one needs to critically evaluate their stand. I do not accept or endorse all groups on the global left.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

can you find a better source? can't stand that site


----------



## captainmission (Mar 18, 2014)

Bulter wrote the statement to the editors of that site, it seems believing that the jerulaem post wouldn't publish her response. So that site is the primary source. You can read extract of it here http://rsa.cwrl.utexas.edu/node/6247


----------



## rekil (Mar 18, 2014)

crabapple said:
			
		

> April 9, NYC, me and @warrenellis invite you to watch us drink whiskey and burn down the world.



http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=15110

This bit is the best. Keep the scum out.


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=15110
> 
> This bit is the best. Keep the scum out.





> Jackets are requested *for men*



I foresee a campaign based on women's equal rights to be requested to wear jackets.

Incidently, I was wondering if this was the same Warren Ellis from the Bad Seeds, Dirty Three, etc, but it's not (just in case anyone else wondered...)


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

warren ellis is a massive liberal as well


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

andysays said:


> I foresee a campaign based on women's equal rights to be requested to wear jackets.
> 
> Incidently, I was wondering if this was the same Warren Ellis from the Bad Seeds, Dirty Three, etc, but it's not (just in case anyone else wondered...)



this Warren writes comics, good ones as well.


----------



## rekil (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> this Warren writes comics, good ones as well.


Official enemy of the denim clad intergalactic working class now so he is.


----------



## rekil (Mar 18, 2014)

Blocked as well. God, these people.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blocked as well. God, these people.



I bet Hitler would have been a prolific twitter blocker. And he was fond of formal wear too.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

he's such a dick. Used to have the odd row with him on the whitechapel comic forum. He got the hump with me for saying Freak Angels is essentially a Midwich Cuckoos re-imagining


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> he's such a dick. Used to have the odd row with him on the whitechapel comic forum. He got the hump with me for saying Freak Angels is essentially a Midwich Cuckoos re-imagining



How could he dispute that?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

Balbi said:


> How could he dispute that?




'inspired by but not a re-imagining'

ok


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> 'inspired by but not a re-imagining'
> 
> ok



"homage"??


----------



## captainmission (Mar 18, 2014)

andysays said:


> I foresee a campaign based on women's equal rights to be requested to wear jackets.



I think you'll find the venue is at the vanguard of breaking down patriarchal gender constraints be insisting on a dress code of “_business casual” for ladies and gentlemen as accepted in the New York City business community. _Isn't this the equality we dreamed of?
_
_


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> this Warren writes comics, good ones as well.


 
i disagree.  his comics are vapid tittillation for teenage stoner philosophers who arent even half as clever as they think they are, and people who think that everyone else is a tiresome norm if they don't have blue hair.

the venn diagram on those two markets is quite large.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blocked as well. God, these people.


 
personally i think being accused of not owning many clothes is a good thing.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

and i'm cheap as well.  three pints of scrumpy jack and i'm anyones


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> 'inspired by but not a re-imagining'
> 
> ok





andysays said:


> "homage"??









"Jacket, no denim"


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

i bet if i googled for pictures of warren ellis i'd find pictures of him wearing a trilby, and probably goth trousers too.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i disagree.  his comics are vapid tittillation for teenage stoner philosophers who arent even half as clever as they think they are, and people who think that everyone else is a tiresome norm if they don't have blue hair.
> 
> the venn diagram on those two markets is quite large.



Freak Angels and Transmet are good (the latter being his Hunter S Thiompson in the future 'inspired by')


----------



## rekil (Mar 18, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I bet Hitler would have been a prolific twitter blocker. And he was fond of formal wear too.


I didn't even get a chance to do a check your extensive wardrobe privilege gag.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Freak Angels and Transmet are good (the latter being his Hunter S Thiompson in the future 'inspired by')


 
i hated Transmetropolitan when i finally got round to reading it.  utter bobbins.

i read Freak Angels for a while on the basis of your recommendation but that was crap too.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

philistine! with your denim and your lack of $20 dollars


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

Inviting people to burn down the world, stating a dress code, $20 door charge.

It's actually a plea for help, they're attempting to corrall the worst elements of their own excess and success, and are inviting the denim clad jacketless masses to enthusiastic arson.


----------



## Limerick Red (Mar 18, 2014)

Do ya think that maybe..,just maybe...burning down the world might  mean sitting being bored to fuckin tears about two complete gowls rabbitin on bout themselves?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

note albert in CORRECT ATTIRE


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

it would be ironic if someone were to set fire to the building whilst that was happening.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 18, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> it would be ironic if someone were to set fire to the building whilst that was happening.





Balbi said:


> Inviting people to burn down the world, stating a dress code, $20 door charge.
> 
> It's actually a plea for help, they're attempting to corrall the worst elements of their own excess and success, and are inviting the denim clad jacketless masses to enthusiastic arson.



AHEM


----------



## The Pale King (Mar 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> *Full kit wanker into the bargain*. In a concession to sensibleness, he has his jumper on underneath. You don't wanna catch your death of cold when you're smashing the zionist murder machine on the west coast of Ireland.



All the gear, no idea...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I bet Hitler would have been a prolific twitter blocker. And he was fond of formal wear too.


He knew how to let his hair down too, mind.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

I didn't really need to see that, especially the middle photo


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 18, 2014)

"Und next week ve vill haff ein night of long trouzers".


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 18, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i hated Transmetropolitan when i finally got round to reading it.  utter bobbins.
> 
> i read Freak Angels for a while on the basis of your recommendation but that was crap too.



Questionable Content is the web comic I follow.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

Lol this is absolute bollocks from this Alan Johnson guy

Has he never heard of the debates in the left over 'national self determination'?? 





> In the 19th century, most of the Left felt that assimilation was the only acceptable Jewish response to modernity and anti-Semitism. It disapproved of the survival of Jewishness – of the Jews as a _people_ with the right to national self determination as opposed to individuals with civil rights. Instead, the Left hoped to dissolve Jewish peoplehood in the solvent of progressive universalism. The proletariat, understood as the universalist class par excellence, was to make a revolution that would solve "the Jewish question" once and for all. Actually, in the 19th century and the early 20th century, many European Jews agreed with both universalism and assimilation; it was the name of their desire too.
> 
> But world history went another way and Jewish history went with it. The failure of the European socialist revolution, the rise of Fascism and Nazism, and the unprecedented transformation of the assault upon the Jews – in the form of the Shoah, an industrial-scale genocide in the heart of Europe – left the appeal of assimilationism and universalism in tatters.  In response, the Jews insisted on defining their own mode of participation in universal emancipation: Zionism and support for the creation of the state of Israel. Whether they moved to Israel or not, that was the choice of all but a slither of world Jewry. And that remains the case today.



Assimilation continues to be the choice of a huge number of people lol, more than ever following world war 2, has he not been following the news for the past few decades and resulting panic in some quarters about latge numbers of Jews marrying non-Jews (a number which is estimated to be at least 40%)

Also even if jewish people don't marry non Jews most have assimilated to some extent by having non Jewish family and friends and working in multicultural workplaces 

Also most people aren't obsessed with Israel and Palestine, he comes across as a completely ignorant twat


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> He knew how to let his hair down too, mind.




in modern times only simon cowell wears his belt so high. Co-incidence?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Lol this is absolute bollocks from this Alan Johnson guy
> 
> Has he never heard of the debates in the left over 'national self determination'??
> 
> ...



why has everyone oddsworth got their own special theory.


----------



## benedict (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> it's hilarious NUS conferences even think they are relevant to anything. Most students just see them as a thing to get discounts



Political kindergarten innit. Crèche for wannabe party napparatchiks of every flavor


DotCommunist said:


> in modern times only simon cowell wears his belt so high. Co-incidence?



Also the freudian nightmare vision of spike jonze's Her.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> why has everyone oddsworth got their own special theory.



Fucked if I know I'm just wondering what world he lives in!


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Lol this is absolute bollocks from this Alan Johnson guy...



Sorry, according to Alan



> the Jews [that's all of you, obvs] insisted on defining their own mode of participation in universal emancipation: Zionism and support for the creation of the state of Israel. Whether they moved to Israel or not, that was the choice of all but a slither of world Jewry. And that remains the case today.



So you just have to accept that the decision has been made for you and get with the fucking Zionist programme, I'm afraid


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

Seriously open a copy of the Jewish chronicle where there are always paranoid articles about assimilation, intermarrying and that sort of topic, people panicking that there aren't gonna be any Jews left or the more serious bits of demographic research on the topic or better yet just TALK TO PEOPLE and then tell me that his worldview represents reality in any way. It's just fantasy stuff, it's like people saying that the vast majority of Muslims don't marry non Muslims and only have one political view


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

andysays said:


> Sorry, according to Alan
> 
> 
> 
> So you just have to accept that the decision has been made for you and get with the fucking Zionist programme, I'm afraid



To be honest I want nothing to do with either side in that debate


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

> that was the choice of all but a *slither* of world Jewry.



I'm sure this was meant to be sliver and not a lizardly reference


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

Also the whole idea of 'national self determination' and support of 'national liberation' movements as promoted by Trotsky and Lenin is where a lot of this hamas supporting shit in the left comes from, if he wanted to criticize the Left properly he would have talked about that...


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> To be honest I want nothing to do with either side in that debate



No reason why you should.

And just in case there's any doubt about my previous post



Sometimes sarcasm's rather a blunt weapon - sorry if it didn't come across the way it was meant.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

andysays said:


> No reason why you should.
> 
> And just in case there's any doubt about my previous post
> 
> ...




I wasn't offended at all.


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm sure this was meant to be sliver and not a lizardly reference


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2014)

so would hitler pass the dress code?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2014)

andysays said:


> "homage"??




homage to catatonia


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2014)

andysays said:


> No reason why you should.
> 
> And just in case there's any doubt about my previous post
> 
> ...





No problem to be honest I have major problems with the whole ideology of 'anti-zionism' too, I don't like being asked between apologists for Israeli state militarism and racism and the idea thst seems to be amomg some people that if you have been to say visit family in Israel or something you are a cunt. (In a way that visiting say Russia or China or something wouldn't be) I'm not saying it's antisemitic or anything but a lot of them are really ignorant and I am not interested in either of them


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2014)

The Ellis - Crabapple, pay 20 quid to watch friends congratulate each other scam led me to notice Crabapple and a liberal writer Sarah Kendzior engaging in a bit of "you are great - no, you, you are great" mutual backslapping. Which in turn led me to notice that Kendzior is currently campaigning for Foreign Policy to employ more women writers. My male privilege had previously blinded me to the tragic and brutally unfair lack of career opportunities for women liberal interventionists and foreign policy hawks in their male dominated field.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 18, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The Ellis - Crabapple, pay 20 quid to watch friends congratulate each other scam led me to notice Crabapple and a liberal writer Sarah Kendzior engaging in a bit of "you are great - no, you, you are great" mutual backslapping. Which in turn led me to notice that Kendzior is currently campaigning for Foreign Policy to employ more women writers. My male privilege had previously blinded me to the tragic and brutally unfair lack of career opportunities for women liberal interventionists and foreign policy hawks in their male dominated field.



Campaigning for more female waterboarders at Gitmo is a little bit feminism...


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> in medieval times there were people who would go onto the battlefield after a big engagement and loot anything they could from the corpses. Given that said armies will have been burning thir crops, stealing their food and generally acting the cunt they may have had some justification...
> 
> anywaythere's a special term for them, but I cannot recall it.


Journalists?


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 18, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The Ellis - Crabapple, pay 20 quid to watch friends congratulate each other scam led me to notice Crabapple and a liberal writer Sarah Kendzior engaging in a bit of "you are great - no, you, you are great" mutual backslapping. Which in turn led me to notice that Kendzior is currently campaigning for Foreign Policy to employ more women writers. My male privilege had previously blinded me to the tragic and brutally unfair lack of career opportunities for women liberal interventionists and foreign policy hawks in their male dominated field.



I won't forget the time Sarah Kendzior accused another writer of plagiarism before actually approaching her because of her larger Twitter platform. Cue pitchforks from her followers and it eventually transpired that there was no plagiarism as the author had written on the topic before Kendzior had. Hilarious climbdown.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Freak Angels and Transmet are good (the latter being his Hunter S Thiompson in the future 'inspired by')


His first 12 issues of _The Authority_ are great too, went to shit after that. The lead up to the _The Authority_ in S_tormwatch_ was pretty good too.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2014)

oh my fucking god. workers bomb needed here.


----------



## treelover (Mar 19, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Barring a well known and widely publicised columnist like Bindel, who does have form for being a hateful despicable speaker and writer, is akin to letting fascists win
> 
> "If you don't like the mean people, don't share a platform with them" is playground idiocy. Yes, let them have a platform and be right but don't make a fuss




there is hardly anyone


DotCommunist said:


> nice elision of silencing  Zionist ranter with silencing a woman talking about feminism. Context free freedom of speech



There are about six people at that meeting, most are pro BDS.


----------



## rekil (Mar 20, 2014)

> "On behalf of teachers I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense, which means insert roughly into the anus of."


Has anybody called out Mr.Steer from educating yorkshire yet? Is he a little bit homophobia?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 20, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has anybody called out Mr.Steer from educating yorkshire yet? Is he a little bit homophobia?


Did he perchance originally hail from Texas?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has anybody called out Mr.Steer from educating yorkshire yet? Is he a little bit homophobia?




nah surely shoving a trophy up someones arse is about the discomfort not homophobia.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> nah surely shoving a trophy up someones arse is about the discomfort not homophobia.


 
It seems a peculiarly specific way to make someone uncomfortable?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2014)

Have we had this one yet?
"Occupy founder calls on Obama to appoint Eric Schmidt CEO of America"
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/20/occupy-founder-obama-eric-schmidt-ceo-america


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

Am I wrong to find this cartoon really annoying, especially the bit at the end? 

http://www.erikamoen.com/comics-portfolio/queer/


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It seems a peculiarly specific way to make someone uncomfortable?




nah, shove it up your arse has long been an expression- its about discomfort not homophobia imo


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I wrong to find this cartoon really annoying, especially the bit at the end?
> 
> http://www.erikamoen.com/comics-portfolio/queer/



No. You are not.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> No. You are not.


 
ok good, one of the intersectionalist types just posted it


----------



## J Ed (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I wrong to find this cartoon really annoying, especially the bit at the end?
> 
> http://www.erikamoen.com/comics-portfolio/queer/



Patronising and vile


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

Seriously how can they go on about things like spicey bean-burgers being racist and then post shit like this?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2014)

don't really get what the last bit is trying to say. Sexual liberation=pole dancing?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> ok good, one of the intersectionalist types just posted it



Moen isn't a bad cartoonist at all, albeit in a typically US indie twee slice of life sort of way. That last panel reflects the sex industry positive proclivities of US progressive hipster / arty circles. And the slight air of smugness grates. I'm not at all surprised that it would be a hit with a lot of twittersectionals, mind you. And not entirely for bad reasons - it does actually explain some issues clearly.

(This stuff is quite amusing to me as the cartoon reminds me strongly of a mate's girlfriend, including the last panel digression)


----------



## captainmission (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I wrong to find this cartoon really annoying, especially the bit at the end?
> 
> http://www.erikamoen.com/comics-portfolio/queer/



Is there anything other than the strip club pannel you find annoying?



frogwoman said:


> Seriously how can they go on about things like spicey bean-burgers being racist and then post shit like this?



Sex positive innit. The dancers probably paying her way through university which makes it ok


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Is there anything other than the strip club pannel you find annoying?
> 
> 
> 
> Sex positive innit. The dancers probably paying her way through university which makes it ok


 
i'm bisexual/"pansexual" I suppose lol, apart from queer being used as a term of abuse when i was younger and one i find quite hard to get my head around, and the smugness, not really, it's the strip club panel i find the most irritating though, but it's also like she's acting like she's the only person to have thought of this stuff before


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I wrong to find this cartoon really annoying, especially the bit at the end?
> 
> http://www.erikamoen.com/comics-portfolio/queer/



The picture of the bloke in his vest....


----------



## captainmission (Mar 20, 2014)

Smugness just come along with that style of comic. It's _personal _i.e self absorbed and and platform to show how rad and edgey the author is. Ok it says nothing any bi person wouldn't have concluded themselves. But in a milieu where white people can't criticise black people who commit domestic violence or calling someone a fanny is an act of sexual violence it's on the less objectional side of things.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Smugness just come along with that style of comic. It's _personal _i.e self absorbed and and platform to show how rad and edgey the author is. Ok it says nothing any bi person wouldn't have concluded themselves. But in a milieu where white people can't criticise black people who commit domestic violence or calling someone a fanny is an act of sexual violence it's on the less objectional side of things.


 
maybe, i just haven't come across much of this type of thing before recently


----------



## weepiper (Mar 20, 2014)

'how cute are her boobs'?

:vom:


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

isn't it a bit rapey?

isn't that sort of stuff and waving money at someone saying how cute someone's boobs are etc basically just objectification? (which women can do to other women and men, and men can do to men etc) it isn't necessarily a "fulfilling relationship" is it?

or do i need to check my privilege again?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 20, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Smugness just come along with that style of comic. It's _personal _i.e self absorbed and and platform to show how rad and edgey the author is. Ok it says nothing any bi person wouldn't have concluded themselves. But in a milieu where white people can't criticise black people who commit domestic violence or calling someone a fanny is an act of sexual violence it's on the less objectional side of things.



I'll never surrender the right to call someone a fanny. I'll concede practically every gendered insult going, i'll accept the arguments about other words and how they're inherently violent, but I draw the line at fanny. we need to have _some_ words, and fanny is a _hilarious_ word.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 20, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'll never surrender the right to call someone a fanny. I'll concede practically every gendered insult going, i'll accept the arguments about other words and how they're inherently violent, but I draw the line at fanny. we need to have _some_ words, and fanny is a _hilarious_ word.



You're not alone in that. I had a friend who recently decide to become intersectional. When he got groped in a gay club he consulted the internet and was told by complaining he was upholding his straight privilege and invading a queer space. He accepted that. He volunteers for a homeless charity and thought young homeless men that nosh men off for money could be helped by redefining themselves as gender-queer. But he drew the line when told couldn't use fanny cos it embodied _400 years _ of patriarchy.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> isn't it a bit rapey?
> 
> isn't that sort of stuff and waving money at someone saying how cute someone's boobs are etc basically just objectification? (which women can do to other women and men, and men can do to men etc) it isn't necessarily a "fulfilling relationship" is it?
> 
> or do i need to check my privilege again?



nah, you're sounding like some anti-sex radfem. She's not some pleb forced to work for page 3 or something. She's classy. She's probably got a-levels and everything. It's like burlesque. Saying she has cute tits is a form of sex positive allyship


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

captainmission said:


> You're not alone in that. I had a friend who recently decide to become intersectional. When he got groped in a gay club he consulted the internet and was told by complaining he was upholding his straight privilege and invading a queer space. He accepted that. He volunteers for a homeless charity and thought young homeless men that nosh men off for money could be helped by redefining themselves as gender-queer. But he drew the line when told couldn't use fanny cos it embodied _400 years _ of patriarchy.


 
how would redefining themselves as genderqueer help get themselves out of their situation of homelessness


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I wrong to find this cartoon really annoying, especially the bit at the end?
> 
> http://www.erikamoen.com/comics-portfolio/queer/


 
nope.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> isn't it a bit rapey?
> 
> isn't that sort of stuff and waving money at someone saying how cute someone's boobs are etc basically just objectification? (which women can do to other women and men, and men can do to men etc) it isn't necessarily a "fulfilling relationship" is it?
> 
> or do i need to check my privilege again?


 
i agree with you entirely.  but i am the Fun Police, so you may want to take this with a pinch of salt.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2014)

It's interesting what nigel said above about sex work being viewed as positive and empowering by some sections of the US left. I'm suffering from a massive christian morality hangover and I'm a bloke so I'm not exactly the best placed to comment but it never seemed like an empowering life choice to me...


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

im sure the waitresses in moldova who got trafficked by the restaurant they worked in while I was out there viewed it as an empowering life choice.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 20, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> how would redefining themselves as genderqueer help get themselves out of their situation of homelessness



well obviously it wouldn't. But a lot of the men are (for lack of a better word) confused about the sexual identity. Most are involved in hetrosexual relationship, but suck off men to fund their drug habit. A conversation about economic decision you make when destitute might be useful. Adopting the terminology of middle class students less so


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2014)

captainmission said:


> nah, you're sounding like some anti-sex radfem. She's not some pleb forced to work for page 3 or something. She's classy. She's probably got a-levels and everything. It's like burlesque. Saying she has cute tits is a form of sex positive allyship



It all depends who's saying it, obvs.

If I (as a privileged white middle aged male) or the bloke pictured in the vest were to say it, then of course it would be dodgy, or perhaps even "rapey".

But because Erika is "queer" (and  also because she's, like, an expressive creative professional, you dig) it's not just acceptable, it's empowering for the woman with cute tits (sorry, I obviously mean the woman who Erika is depicting/describing as having cute tits - i'm not allowed to express an opinion as to their cuteness or otherwise).

It would be interesting to add a thought bubble to the last picture in that sequence, suggesting what the woman on the stage thought, but Erika has chosen to leave her voiceless and presumably opinionless...


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> It's interesting what nigel said above about sex work being viewed as positive and empowering by some sections of the US left. I'm suffering from a massive christian morality hangover and I'm a bloke so I'm not exactly the best placed to comment but it never seemed like an empowering life choice to me...



It's broader than "the left" and permeates into a wider socially "progressive" younger section of society. Most of which would be "leftish" on many issues and in terms of cultural affinities but tends towards Ayn Randian style libertarianism on the subject of the sex industry. It's all about individual "choice", and to talk about constraints on choice is to deny "agency". This logic is correctly seen as self-serving shit when applied to other economic decisions but the sex industry gets a free pass.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2014)

My mate worked in a centre for victims of sex trafficking in Moldova, the charity I worked for also helped people who were deemed at risk of it or had already been trafficked and it helped them improve their lives. I wonder what their opinions would be about any of this. She used to come back with some horrific fucking stories.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 20, 2014)

andysays said:


> It would be interesting to add a thought bubble to the last picture in that sequence, suggesting what the woman on the stage thought, but Erika has chosen to leave her voiceless and presumably opinionless...



That's very clever. Her thinking "oh for fuck's sake" or even just thinking about buying groceries with the money....


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's broader than "the left" and permeates into a wider socially "progressive" younger section of society. Most of which would be "leftish" on many issues and in terms of cultural affinities but tends towards Ayn Randian style libertarianism on the subject of the sex industry. It's all about individual "choice", and to talk about constraints on choice is to deny "agency". This logic is correctly seen as self-serving shit when applied to other economic decisions but the sex industry gets a free pass.



its an odd one, and no doubt the people involved would call it brit prudishness to voice objections. But I remember a mate coming back from Vegas where he took his mrs on honeymoon with a flyer offerin 'the works' so to speak for twenty dollar. Twenty dollars, whats that, 15 quid on a good day? I know quibbling over the prices isn't the point but how devalued is the sale of sex that you can rent someones parts for less than twenty notes?


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's very clever. Her thinking "oh for fuck's sake" or even *just thinking about buying groceries with the money*....



That gets my vote


----------



## rioted (Mar 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> It's interesting what nigel said above about sex work being viewed as positive and empowering by some sections of the US left. I'm suffering from a massive christian morality hangover and I'm a bloke so I'm not exactly the best placed to comment but it never seemed like an empowering life choice to me...


Whereas going down pit, trawling, flipping burgers are? Having to sell your labour, time or body is never empowering. Survival is all.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 20, 2014)

rioted said:


> Whereas going down pit, trawling, flipping burgers are? Having to sell your labour, time or body is never empowering. Survival is all.



There aren't hordes of "leftists" who start shouting about the denial of agency if someone offers a negative analysis of the fast food industry.


----------



## rekil (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's very clever. Her thinking "oh for fuck's sake" or even just thinking about buying groceries with the money....


Heavy duty nuclear physics equations and workers bomb delivery system logistics and the like. There's an idea for a comic.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

copliker said:


> Heavy duty nuclear physics equations and workers bomb delivery system logistics and the like. There's an idea for a comic.


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


>






			
				Erica said:
			
		

> Cute tits!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

I take it you want more equations?


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I take it you want more equations?



I'm afraid those are already beyond me, and any more would be wasted (on me, at least)


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm afraid those are already beyond me, and any more would be wasted (on me, at least)


I can assure you, they're beyond me as well


----------



## rekil (Mar 20, 2014)

crabapple said:
			
		

> You shouldn't just care about Syria because many people were tortured and killed
> 
> You should care because people like @RedRazan are brave activists who the American left could learn so much from if they bothered to try


The US left should be ashamed of themselves for being such a disappointment to crabapple,  especially the people of colour ones. Like, what's their problem.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Is there anything other than the strip club pannel you find annoying?


 For me, it was the words, drawings and ideas. In fact I now hate my computer screen as well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> The US left should be ashamed of themselves for being such a disappointment to crabapple,  especially the people of colour ones. Like, what's their problem.




when I was eleven my brother convinced me that it was OK to bring a crabapple to a conker fight. He even helped me string the bastard. So I rock up to the big boys table with my crabapple on a string. I was mocked mercilessly. My brother is a dick. He'd pull that sort of wankers trick, then turn up when my mouth had got me in trouble and chin my enemy. So you have to take the rough with the smooth I suppose.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2014)

pmsl


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> when I was eleven my brother convinced me that it was OK to bring a crabapple to a conker fight. He even helped me string the bastard. So I rock up to the big boys table with my crabapple on a string. I was mocked mercilessly. My brother is a dick. He'd pull that sort of wankers trick, then turn up when my mouth had got me in trouble and chin my enemy. So you have to take the rough with the smooth I suppose.


Very 



Spoiler: Ginger Chips


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> when I was eleven my brother convinced me that it was OK to bring a crabapple to a conker fight. He even helped me string the bastard. So I rock up to the big boys table with my crabapple on a string. I was mocked mercilessly. My brother is a dick. He'd pull that sort of wankers trick, then turn up when my mouth had got me in trouble and chin my enemy. So you have to take the rough with the smooth I suppose.



I hope you're going to publish all this some day.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

captainmission said:


> nah, you're sounding like some anti-sex radfem. She's not some pleb forced to work for page 3 or something. She's classy. She's probably got a-levels and everything. It's like burlesque. Saying she has cute tits is a form of sex positive allyship


 
i know you're taking the piss but i really hate this language "folks" "allyship" "not real solidarity" etc (apparently not thinking bellydancing is racist "isn't real solidarity" and as someone who's experienced racism myself i should be ashamed lol)

oh and the classic "i welcome your experience" i mean why would you say that, it's like job letters that begin "...after careful consideration" another one i got told, after talking about sexual assault was "you shared so beautifully" what??

what?? what the fuck does that mean?

Speak like fucking humans ffs!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

Black folks - White people.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I hope you're going to publish all this some day.



dotcommunist a life lived backwards?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> dotcommunist a life lived backwards?



But who would play him in the movie?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Black folks - White people.



Peau noir, masques blanc.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

The allusion wasn't accidental Idris.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

i welcome your experience


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The allusion wasn't accidental Idris.



Fanon anon.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

Begone!


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

I saw a very white englishwoman wishing Ireland's people of colour "all 27 of you" a happy st.patrick's day.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> I saw a very white englishwoman wishing Ireland's people of colour "all 27 of you" a happy st.patrick's day.


 


on twitter?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> I saw a very white englishwoman wishing Ireland's people of colour "all 27 of you" a happy st.patrick's day.



Christ almighty. 

I was talking to someone at home earlier this week, mind, and she said she'd spotted at least six young Muslim women wearing green hijabs on Paddy's day, apparently on their way back from the parade.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

6 down, only 21 to go


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> on twitter?


Where else? Also something about how Belfast is "very white :/" Trying so hard to be a good ally.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Where else? Also something about how Belfast is "very white :/" Trying so hard to be a good ally.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Where else? Also something about how Belfast is "very white :/" Trying so hard to be a good ally.


 
i welcome your experience copliker. this makes intersectionality all the more relevant.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

I once met a Sudanese doctor in Castlebar who told me 'the Irish are just like the Sudanese - they are very simple people'.

TRUE STORY BRO.


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Christ almighty.
> 
> I was talking to someone at home earlier this week, mind, and she said she'd spotted at least six young Muslim women wearing green hijabs on Paddy's day, apparently on their way back from the parade.


On the other end of the scale, a while ago there was a young man at the back of the bus claiming that there were 500,000 Chinese people in Ireland. He was corrected by one of the 27 people of colour.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> On the other end of the scale, a while ago there was a young man at the back of the bus claiming that there were 500,000 Chinese people in Ireland. He was corrected by one of the 27 people of colour.



The biggest immigrant group in RoI is actually English people (who may well have Irish connections of one sort or another of course). Chinese in Ireland number roughly 20,000.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Where else? Also something about how Belfast is "very white :/" Trying so hard to be a good ally.


 Isn't 'hideously white' the preferred term nowadays?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> On the other end of the scale, a while ago there was a young man at the back of the bus claiming that there were 500,000 Chinese people in Ireland. He was corrected by one of the 27 people of colour.


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


>



"This video is not available in your country."

Media blackout! 

I find that term offensive and triggering actually.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> "This video is not available in your country."
> 
> Media blackout!
> 
> I find that term offensive and triggering actually.


 
how can it not be available, you're irish and it's father ted


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Media blackout!
> 
> I find that term offensive and triggering actually.


 
I welcome your experience.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> how can it not be available, you're irish and it's father ted


appropriation


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> I find that term offensive and triggering actually.



WAIT THERE 'TIL I GET YE.


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> The biggest immigrant group in RoI is actually English people (who may well have Irish connections of one sort or another of course). Chinese in Ireland number roughly 20,000.


I think there's more Poles than Brits now.

Get a load of them emigration stats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 21, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It seems a peculiarly specific way to make someone uncomfortable?



Was Father Jack a little bit homophobia when he shoved the Holy Stone of Clonrickert up Bishop Len's arse?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Was Father Jack a little bit homophobia when he shoved the Holy Stone of Clonrickert up Bishop Len's arse?


 
I do not know. I would assume that doing that in the real world would count as a sexual assault though?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> But who would play him in the movie?


liam neeson


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> But who would play him in the movie?



A young Tim Roth circa "Made in England".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 21, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I do not know. I would assume that doing that in the real world would count as a sexual assault though?



Up to and including rape, as of 4 years ago in the UK ("penetration with object"), although sexual intent has to be shown, and I think Father Jack was doing it to cause pain, not so he could get the horn.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Up to and including rape, as of 4 years ago in the UK ("penetration with object"), although sexual intent has to be shown, and I think Father Jack was doing it to cause pain, not so he could get the horn.


 
Yeah that's interesting about sexual intent.

I'll admit that this is a bit of a tangent, but I find it difficult to imagine that choosing anal torture rather than, say, beating someone around the head has no sexual element to it whatsoever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 21, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yeah that's interesting about sexual intent.
> 
> I'll admit that this is a bit of a tangent, but I find it difficult to imagine that choosing anal torture rather than, say, beating someone around the head has no sexual element to it whatsoever.



A good point.  It's going to depend on whether the anal torture is a conscious manifestation of sexual intent, or an unconscious one, I suspect.  Father Jack being a priest, he may have sublimated his lust for young nubiles ("Girls, drink, arse, feck!!!") into a single violent penetration of Bishop Len's fundament.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Was Father Jack a little bit homophobia when he shoved the Holy Stone of Clonrickert up Bishop Len's arse?



Does Jack actually do that, though? I was about to type that he doesn't, but I'm not now sure if I remember the episode correctly. Are you sure you're not thinking of Ted _kicking _Bishop Brennan up the arse?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Does Jack actually do that, though? I was about to type that he doesn't, but I'm not now sure if I remember the episode correctly. Are you sure you're not thinking of Ted _kicking _Bishop Brennan up the arse?



TBF I can't remember!


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


>



 'This video is not available in your country'. Need i say more.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i know you're taking the piss but i really hate this language "folks" "allyship" "not real solidarity" etc (apparently not thinking bellydancing is racist "isn't real solidarity" and as someone who's experienced racism myself i should be ashamed lol)



I know a woman of south Asian origin who's into bellydancing, is that cultural appropriation or is she 'passable' enough for _intersectionalistas_?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I know a woman of south Asian origin who's into bellydancing, is that cultural appropriation or is she 'passable' enough for _intersectionalistas_?


 
doesn't matter, i've got a chinese mate into bellydancing and got told that it doesn't matter how "innocently ignorant" she is, and doesn't matter if shes from an ethnic minority


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> doesn't matter, i've got a chinese mate into bellydancing and got told that it doesn't matter how "innocently ignorant" she is, and doesn't matter if shes from an ethnic minority



If you're a Chinese Orientalist does that make you an Occidentalist?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> If you're a Chinese Orientalist does that make you an Occidentalist?


 
also middle eastern women's voice is the only thing that matters on this, even though none of the people telling me this were from the middle east


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

I'm also "naive" for not thinking it's a massive problem if someone doesn't know/didn't believe me if i told them that fish and chips came from jewish immigrants

for people who say that "my voice is the most important" on these matters, i've seldom encountered more blantant examples of being told what to think, what racism is, and how to react to it.

i've fell out with someone i thought was a mate over this ideology, she's told me i'm "degrading and disgusting" as well as racist and all sorts of other shit.  her mate wrote a message on her wall with an article about "cultural appropriation," mentioned my name, saying that it "might help" my name was obviously spelt wrong. 

really really hate this shit.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

also maybe i need to check my privilege again but is it really such a massive problem if someone in the UK has a mohican?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 21, 2014)

So hang on - stripping is "empowering" but belly dancing is racist?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm also "naive" for not thinking it's a massive problem if someone doesn't know/didn't believe me if i told them that fish and chips came from jewish immigrants
> 
> for people who say that "my voice is the most important" on these matters, i've seldom encountered more blantant examples of being told what to think, what racism is, and how to react to it.
> 
> ...



Where do you find these people? :/


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Where do you find these people? :/



America.

It's American calvinism at work - build up your cred by public signs that you are one of the elect.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> also maybe i need to check my privilege again but is it really such a massive problem if someone in the UK has a mohican?




proud punk tradition shorely? fauxhicans like what beckham had once are just not on though


----------



## Balbi (Mar 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> proud punk tradition shorely? fauxhicans like what beckham had once are just not on though



Punks are all screwdriver racists though in this worldview.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> America.
> 
> It's American calvinism at work - build up your cred by public signs that you are one of the elect.



We are all a little bit racism (except for me cos I said it first)


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> proud punk tradition shorely? fauxhicans like what beckham had once are just not on though


The Filthy 13 started it. 

 

De Niro's mohawk in Taxi Driver was based on its use in 'Nam according to Scorsese. It was a way of saying "don't fuck with me, i'm proper mental" or something like that. Then the postcard punks came along, and now it's standard for middle managers everywhere.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> We are all a little bit racism (except for me cos I said it first)



They'll do it anywhere over anything. Look at this remarkable bullshit:



> Now: Tiffany Austin, as you can see in this video, is a reasonably fit but by no means _intimidating_ person. This entire incident is brimming over with absurdity. I would be tempted to dismiss this story as unlikely, if it were not *perfectly in line* with Planet Fitness's entire corporate mission statement: "No Gymtimidation. No Lunks." This is a gym that specifically bans intense exercise. *This is a gym that installs an actual alarm that may be pressed if someone is perceived to be working out too hard. This is a gym that once called the police on a customer who was "grunting" while squatting 500 pounds.*
> 
> If you squat 500 pounds you may make any god damn sound that you wish.



http://gawker.com/burn-planet-fitness-to-the-ground-1548050224


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Where do you find these people? :/


 
Oxford


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> proud punk tradition shorely? fauxhicans like what beckham had once are just not on though


 
Apparently it's degrading to native americans?

but didn't many of the original punks have quite a proud record of fighting against racism and fascism?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

given all the problems that native americans face with racism is someone with a mohican on the other side of the atlantic really one of them?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> given all the problems that native americans face with racism is someone with a mohican on the other side of the atlantic really one of them?



Then when someone comes along who tries to help the indigenous peoples of the Americas like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales it's all #SOSvenezeuala #pray4venezuela #weareallposhorightwingparamilitaries


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

Maduro is missing a real trick, has he thought about sending Leopoldo López a tweet asking him to check his privilege? Tweets like that dismantle barricades.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> given all the problems that native americans face with racism is someone with a mohican on the other side of the atlantic really one of them?



If the intersectional structural understanding of racism only extends as far as making a tumblr of racist halloween costumes, or some ahistoric white supremacy, then why not? It certainly makes for a more catchy tweet.


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2014)

The novara people were enthusing about the greens recently I think. They had Bennett on their wireless show. Have they learned nothing from the LibDem fiasco?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> They'll do it anywhere over anything. Look at this remarkable bullshit:


*"This is a gym** that once called the police** on a customer who was "grunting" while squatting 500 pounds."*

*The intersectionalist gym.  Maybe they should apply these ideas to other sports: anti-oppressive boxing, constructive karate, inclusive Iron Man...*


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 21, 2014)

Calling the cops weirdness aside, I find it hard to get particularly outraged about the existence of a gym aimed at unfit and/or corpulent people who don't want to be faced with rows of grunting muscle bound types while they are plodding along on their treadmills. Not my cup of tea, but hardly an atrocity either.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2014)

More Laurie Penny erasing class privilege with generational war shit http://www.newstatesman.com/cultura...baby-boomers-left-society-worse-they-found-it


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> More Laurie Penny erasing class privilege with generational war shit http://www.newstatesman.com/cultura...baby-boomers-left-society-worse-they-found-it


Sometimes, i feel i can't go on. Then i read this.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> More Laurie Penny erasing class privilege with generational war shit http://www.newstatesman.com/cultural-capital/2014/03/ns-debate-house-believes-baby-boomers-left-society-worse-they-found-it



That's a meme I keep seeing on right wing websites; its the babyboomers fault not capitalism.


----------



## Sue (Mar 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> The Filthy 13 started it.
> 
> View attachment 50606
> 
> De Niro's mohawk in Taxi Driver was based on its use in 'Nam according to Scorsese. It was a way of saying "don't fuck with me, i'm proper mental" or something like that. Then the postcard punks came along, and now it's standard for middle managers everywhere.


 
American paratroopers used to do the mohawk hairdo as a solidarity thing. Lots of pictures by Robert Capa -- who parachuted with them behind enemy lines in WW2 -- of this.


----------



## Sue (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Oxford


 
Plenty of people in Oxford who're not like that. In fact during my time in Oxford -- seven years living there, five more when I was there a lot -- only actually came across people like that a couple of times. (A memorable occasion being when a massive argument ensued at a party I was at about whether feminists should shave their legs. When I pointed out there were many more important issues to worry about, it didn't go down at all well. )


----------



## weepiper (Mar 21, 2014)

'sharpest young political thinkers'.

Or at least, the sharpest young political thinkers that went to private school and know the right people to get asked to appear at this kind of shit.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 21, 2014)

Sue said:


> American paratroopers used to do the mohawk hairdo as a solidarity thing. Lots of pictures by Robert Capa -- who parachuted with them behind enemy lines in WW2 -- of this.



Correct. They also often applied their camouflage cream as though it was war paint. Instead of simply covering their hands and faces they'd apply it in stripes like this member of the 101st Airborne Division (AKA 'The Screaming Eagles') photographed just before taking off to jump on D Day:


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2014)

weepiper said:


> 'sharpest young political thinkers'.
> 
> Or at least, the sharpest young political thinkers that went to private school and know the right people to get asked to appear at this kind of shit.


the word they're looking for begins with sh... and ends with ...est but they've the middle letters wrong


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2014)

Sue said:


> Plenty of people in Oxford who're not like that. In fact during my time in Oxford -- seven years living there, five more when I was there a lot -- only actually came across people like that a couple of times. (A memorable occasion being when a massive argument ensued at a party I was at about whether feminists should shave their legs. When I pointed out there were many more important issues to worry about, it didn't go down at all well. )



I met these guys through anti cuts groups.


----------



## Sue (Mar 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I met these guys through anti cuts groups.


 
I can imagine how successful they'll be at convincing your normal person on the street about the justice of their cause.


----------



## rekil (Mar 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> More Laurie Penny erasing class privilege with generational war shit http://www.newstatesman.com/cultura...baby-boomers-left-society-worse-they-found-it


" six of the country’s sharpest political thinkers will debate the motion"

I know they have to puff this rubbish up but fucking hell.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> also middle eastern women's voice is the only thing that matters on this, even though none of the people telling me this were from the middle east



With regard to the whole "cultural appropriation" _schtick_ in reference to belly-dancing, it's fairly obvious that your twittersectionalist friends have never bothered to establish whether Middle Eastern "belly-dancing" is derived from an act or acts of cultural appropriation in the first place. 
Perhaps if they'd bothered to do so, they'd have seen that some of the (many) explanations place it as originally European in origin.   Other explanations, of course, place it firmly in North Africa, but at the very least, the *original* cultural source is contested.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> also maybe i need to check my privilege again but is it really such a massive problem if someone in the UK has a mohican?



Nope, 'cos anyone with half a gorm in their braincase knows that the particular hairstyle (shaved sides) was actually worn by the Huron tribes, and that it has manifested many times in European and other cultures (most often as a warrior hairstyle - it's easier to get a helmet on) prior to being seen on sdome of the east coast Native American tribes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> The Filthy 13 started it.
> 
> View attachment 50606
> 
> De Niro's mohawk in Taxi Driver was based on its use in 'Nam according to Scorsese. It was a way of saying "don't fuck with me, i'm proper mental" or something like that. Then the postcard punks came along, and now it's standard for middle managers everywhere.



The Royal Marines have had a similar haircut for over 100 years - the traditional "bootneck" look, similar to the US MArine Corps "high and tight" cut.  The full shaving of the sides is pretty much "common sense" in warmer climes, as it gives less territory for stuff like fungal infections to take root.


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> With regard to the whole "cultural appropriation" _schtick_ in reference to belly-dancing, it's fairly obvious that your twittersectionalist friends have never bothered to establish whether Middle Eastern "belly-dancing" is derived from an act or acts of cultural appropriation in the first place.
> Perhaps if they'd bothered to do so, they'd have seen that some of the (many) explanations place it as originally European in origin.   Other explanations, of course, place it firmly in North Africa, but at the very least, the *original* cultural source is contested.



Surely, the salient point, of which this is evidence, is that culture has always - and will always- cross borders. It mutates, develops, decays, evolves and so on. Anyone attempting to stick a flag in it, or freeze it at a moment of authenticity is at best a fool.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 22, 2014)

chilango said:


> Surely, the salient point, of which this is evidence, is that culture has always - and will always- cross borders. It mutates, develops, decays, evolves and so on. Anyone attempting to stick a flag in it, or freeze it at a moment of authenticity is at best a fool.


Or a multiculutralist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2014)

chilango said:


> Surely, the salient point, of which this is evidence, is that culture has always - and will always- cross borders. It mutates, develops, decays, evolves and so on. Anyone attempting to stick a flag in it, or freeze it at a moment of authenticity is at best a fool.



Absolutely. Cultures promiscuously hybridise as a matter of course. The only static cultures are dead cultures, and even they were subject to change while those cultures were alive.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2014)

Yeah the whole idea of stealing stuff from other cultures (dancing, literature, food etc) is essentially a fascist concept isn't it?


----------



## rekil (Mar 22, 2014)

Defend race purity tbh.


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2014)

The desire to define (and then preserve) authenticity is also often very closely connected to the desire to accumulate cultural capital.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 22, 2014)

chilango said:


> The desire to define (and then preserve) authenticity is also often very closely connected to the desire to accumulate cultural capital.



Especially when it's a desire to preserve the authenticity of others


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Especially when it's a desire to preserve the authenticity of others



...and then you can add more than a dash of paternalism to it too.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 22, 2014)

Bit late to this part of the discussion but some of the 'sex-positive' takes on prostitution make me really angry - so angry I find it quite hard to articulate my own thoughts on it.

I've known a lot of sex workers in my time - kind of comes with the territory of having been a long-term heroin addict - women and men right at the very bottom of the sex industry. For them there is nothing 'liberating' about it. They're utterly desperate. I've seen a young woman come crying to me and my mates - absolutely devastated - because she'd been so desperate for money for gear that she'd agreed to give someone a blow job without a condom for £25. He'd then refused to pay her and beaten her up. It's not a choice for these men and women, it's a necessity. They're economically coerced into being exploited in the most violent way I can imagine. This might not be PC in come circles but this kind of exploitation is in no way comparable to the exploitation of someone cleaning toilets or something. The argument that they can earn more money in this way than others and that;s why it's liberating and chosen is bollocks too - I could earn as much as them plumbing. The ones I have known have been serious drug addicts, often taking drugs to self-medicate mental illnesses and to help them forget about past sexual abuse. I've actually bothered to speak to them unlike these middle class fucks who think the experiences of an educated middle class s&m expert like magpie corvid are in some way representative. I've not done a statistical study but I'm pretty confident that there are more sex workers of the kind I know than educated 'liberated' ones who do it because it's edgy and radical. And the ones I've spoken to absolutely agree they;re being exploited and the 'work' they do is in no way liberating. They hate it, and were constantly threatened by violence - me and a couple of the lads used to sometimes accompany them when they went out for protection. Not so just out of the good of our hearts, we were addicts and I don't wanna romanticise what we did - they'd chuck us some gear for it if they made enough to do so and some of the lads were of the mind that if they were assaulted we then had an excuse to rob the punter blind - so we were exploiting them too in a way.

Then there were others who were not far off being slaves to drug dealers, who'd keep them at home to have sex with, not allowing them any money and just feeding them food and gear. And when their money was tight they'd pimp them out. I didn;t see that much of this in Chesterfield, where the drugs business is pretty amateurish - though you'd get women who out of desperation would stay with dealers for s while and give them sex in return for money. But in bigger cities like Sheffield that wasn't so unusual. I'd really like to do something about it now but the bad guys here move around a lot and the only way I could get to know where they are and exactly what's going off would be to get back in the drugs seen - it may sound selfish but I've got too much to lose to go back to that and another relapse would probably kill me so I'm not gonna do it.

I once offered to take two sex-positive feminists (which in their mind meant pro-prostitution, one of them was a man, the other a woman) to see a couple of these women. They had better things to do surprisingly enough. 

Bit of a rambling post here and probably not that clear since it was typed in a kind of incoherent rage, and I've maybe revealed stuff I don't want to reveal but I get really pissed off by this stuff. I think the middle class trendy lefty view of prostitution is based on the idea that 'well if I, as an educated and financially secure middle class person, were to go into it it would be by choice so obviously that;s why all sex workers do it.' And if they're to actually help rather than obscure what's at stake here they need to get out and see what it's like for the thousands of women at the bottom of the sex industry.


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## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2014)

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/13/the_politics_of_being_friends_with_white_people/


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## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2014)

It was Amanda with whom I had my first deep philosophical conversations. In fifth grade, I asked her what she thought about interracial marriage, probably after meeting a kid who had both black and white parents. She told me, “My daddy says people should marry their own kind.” Having never heard it put quite that way before, I simply nodded my head. It sort of made sense. Even I knew that my friendship with Amanda was an anomaly.

Ffs...that's just sad


----------



## newbie (Mar 23, 2014)

chilango said:


> The desire to define (and then preserve) authenticity is also often very closely connected to the desire to accumulate cultural capital.


Has that always been the case or is it an internet phenomenon?  Eg were my friend's parents simply acquiring cultural brownie points when they insisted on speaking Welsh at home in the 1950s, as they had done when they were kids themselves, despite that being unusual in their area?


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2014)

newbie said:


> Has that always been the case or is it an internet phenomenon?  Eg were my friend's parents simply acquiring cultural brownie points when they insisted on speaking Welsh at home in the 1950s, as they had done when they were kids themselves, despite that being unusual in their area?



You could also look at the Grand Tour etc. in the 19th c. 

Art collectors.

"Foodies".

World Music.

etc etc etc


----------



## newbie (Mar 23, 2014)

Not sure the Grand Tour fits, but I'd have thought the others fulfill some useful purpose.  eg Cecil Sharp seems to me to have achieved something worthwhile though on the Twitter of his day he'd have rightly stood accused of ripping off cultural capital belonging to others.


----------



## Brechin Sprout (Mar 23, 2014)

Sue said:


> I can imagine how successful they'll be at convincing your normal person on the street about the justice of their cause.


What are "normal people"? I don't think they exist!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah the whole idea of stealing stuff from other cultures (dancing, literature, food etc) is essentially a fascist concept isn't it?



Right-authoritarian rather than fascist (the Romans and Greeks, among ancient cultures, were also into cultural and racial purity), but yep, centred around the fatuous idea that a culture can be kept pure and free from outside influences.  The only way to do so is complete social segregation and isolation, which is and always has been (to all intents and purposes) impossible.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 23, 2014)

chilango said:


> The desire to define (and then preserve) authenticity is also often very closely connected to the desire to accumulate cultural capital.



Which is why we end up with (IMO) wrongheadedness like Ms Penny defining herself as an anarchist - she wants the perceived kudos of such a label.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Especially when it's a desire to preserve the authenticity of others



It's only ever a desire to preserve those attributes that the preserver deems worthy, though.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 23, 2014)

copliker said:


> " six of the country’s sharpest political thinkers will debate the motion"
> 
> I know they have to puff this rubbish up but fucking hell.



They'll be getting the movie preview bloke to do the voiceover ad for it next.


----------



## treelover (Mar 23, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Correct. They also often applied their camouflage cream as though it was war paint. Instead of simply covering their hands and faces they'd apply it in stripes like this member of the 101st Airborne Division (AKA 'The Screaming Eagles') photographed just before taking off to jump on D Day:



Many of the 'filthy 15' were basically thugs, murdered wounded Germans, etc,


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2014)

treelover said:


> Many of the 'filthy 15' were basically thugs, murdered wounded Germans, etc,


What's your basis for this? And it's filthy 13, not 15.


----------



## treelover (Mar 23, 2014)

> "He talks about men jumping from plains and being sucked into propellers, guys getting their heads blown off, and just what it was like to kill the enemy up close and personal. I hope the statute of limitations for murder has passed, because he tells in gruesome detail how he and another guy killed wounded Germans. Sure it was war, and of course they did it to us, but all the same, it is disturbing."
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1932033122


----------



## treelover (Mar 23, 2014)

The 'greatest generation:, my dad was liberated by the Americans, they asked him "which krauts they wanted popping"


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2014)

That's a comment on the book not a primary evidence source.


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## treelover (Mar 23, 2014)

> because he tells in gruesome detail how he and another guy killed wounded Germans.



I haven't bought the book, but that seems clear, Jake McNiece and some of his comrades admit to killing wounded prisoners.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2014)

treelover said:


> I haven't bought the book, but that seems clear, Jake McNiece and some of his comrades admit to killing wounded prisoners.


Without haven't read the book how can you state that? Someone's opinion is that they killed wounded prisoners but is that correct?


----------



## Sue (Mar 23, 2014)

Brechin Sprout said:


> What are "normal people"? I don't think they exist!


 
Okay, let me rephrase. The vast majority of people who don't subscribe to this intersectionalist rubbish.


----------



## Sue (Mar 23, 2014)

Just going to leave this here for anyone with three quid burning a hole in their pocket who's free on Thursday night.

http://www.foyles.co.uk/Public/Events/Detail.aspx?eventId=2141

Playing the Whore: Melissa Gira Grant in conversation with Laurie Penny


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> I haven't bought the book, but that seems clear, Jake McNiece and some of his comrades admit to killing wounded prisoners.



Unfortunately that's something that's always happened, especially if an army is advancing fast enough that supply lines aren't keeping up.  At and after D-Day, the advance was fast enough that retaining prisoners would have meant detailing off sizeable numbers of frontline combat-ready troops to manage them, so the word on the QT was "take no prisoners, and if you do, have an accident".  Totally against standing orders, but done by every army.


----------



## treelover (Mar 24, 2014)

Its' murder and victors justice.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 24, 2014)

i for one am touched by treelovers regard for the wellbeing of nazi stormtroopers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> i for one am touched by treelovers regard for the wellbeing of nazi stormtroopers.


he likes to stand up for the unterschweinhund.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 24, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unfortunately that's something that's always happened, especially if an army is advancing fast enough that supply lines aren't keeping up.  At and after D-Day, the advance was fast enough that retaining prisoners would have meant detailing off sizeable numbers of frontline combat-ready troops to manage them, so the word on the QT was "take no prisoners, and if you do, have an accident".  Totally against standing orders, but done by every army.



It's also often done as a reprisal because the other side did it first. It's been suggested that after 64 Canadians were shot by members of the 12th SS Hitler Youth Division the Canadians chose 14 SS prisoners, shot 13 and sent the last one back to his own side of the line with a message for the SS.

The message being that, if the SS shot any more Canadans, the Canadians would refuse to take any SS prisoners. Anybody wearing SS insignia would, regardless of whether they were infantry, tank crew, medics, truck drivers, whatever, would be shot out of hand. The SS tended to keep Canadian prisoners alive after that.


----------



## treelover (Mar 24, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> i for one am touched by treelovers regard for the wellbeing of nazi stormtroopers.



eh, all the Wermacht were Nazis's, not something my late father agreed with, expected better of you than that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> eh, all the Wermacht were Nazis's, not something my late father agreed with, expected better of you than that.


so you disagree with your father who took a more nuanced opinion of the wehrmacht than you do then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> Its' murder and victors justice.



Of course it is.  It's total and utter _realpolitik_ in action.


----------



## treelover (Mar 24, 2014)

No, i


Pickman's model said:


> so you disagree with your father who took a more nuanced opinion of the wehrmacht than you do then.



No, I'm challenging BP who basically called them all Nazis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> No, i
> 
> 
> No, I'm challenging BP who basically called them all Nazis.


so you think a number of them could have been staunch anti-fascists


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2014)

are these wehrmacht or ss? if it was the former, a lot of them were conscripts

however if it was the latter then seriously fuck them all


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> are these wehrmacht or ss? if it was the former, a lot of them were conscripts
> 
> however if it was the latter then seriously fuck them all


i was under the impression that some of the waffen-ss were conscripts too towards the end.

e2a: this bit from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts#Conscript_divisions


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i was under the impression that some of the waffen-ss were conscripts too towards the end.
> 
> e2a: this bit from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts#Conscript_divisions


 
as early as 1944 tho?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> as early as 1944 tho?


probably


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 24, 2014)

Wehrmacht complicity in holocaust
http://www.holocaust-history.org/wehrmacht-complicity/wehrmacht-complicity-2.shtml
http://www.mq.edu.au/pubstatic/public/download.jsp?id=99539


----------



## andysays (Mar 24, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Wehrmacht complicity in holocaust
> http://www.holocaust-history.org/wehrmacht-complicity/wehrmacht-complicity-2.shtml
> http://www.mq.edu.au/pubstatic/public/download.jsp?id=99539



Seems like the concept of collective guilt is creeping in here.

While I don't dispute that the Wehrmacht as an organisation was complicit with/responsible for various war crimes, that doesn't mean that all individual members were complicit and therefore effective summary execution is itself a war crime.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 24, 2014)

andysays said:


> Seems like the concept of collective guilt is creeping in here.
> 
> While I don't dispute that the Wehrmacht as an organisation was complicit with/responsible for various war crimes, that doesn't mean that all individual members were complicit and therefore effective summary execution is itself a war crime.



I agree with you on this point of collective punishment btw, not all individual soldiers in the wehrmacht were war criminals deserving immediate execution, but it's worth mentioning something here which is often overlooked:

After the war this myth was allowed to develop that it was Hitler and the Nazi party alone responsible for both the holocaust and losing the war, and that the German generals in the Wehrmacht were merely good patriotic German soldiers loyally following the orders of the Nazi party, and that actually if only Hitler had listened to his generals they'd have not only won the war by 1942 but could done so without any kind of holocaust (which of course the generals were totally unaware of and were horrified by). This is bullshit of the highest order, and has become one of the biggest sustained myths of world war 2. You can trace it back to the self-serving lies and bullshit that the German generals produced for the Americans post-1945 when they were interrogated and debriefed, and sadly from this point it seems to have stuck.

But in actuality the wehrmacht was complicit in all the crimes of Nazism. Hitler's policy of war wasn't devoid of meaning, from the very beginning Hitler's war had purpose - to destroy bolshevism, to found a Germanic "1000 year reich" that would politically unify and dominate Europe as the master culture, and to bring about a worldwide demographic revolution which necessarily involved the massacre of the Jews, and other "untermensch" along with them. Those generals were well aware of this purpose, they knew why they were fighting and as far as anyone can tell from looking at the actual historical record (as opposed to the post-war shite they later came out with) the generals in the German army were enthusiastic supporters of these aims, made no attempt to circumvent them, and whilst the war was going in their favour actually enthusiastically supported them.

This is perhaps my biggest criticism of the film Downfall, that it panders to these myths a little bit. Whilst some criticised this film for humanising Hitler actually the part of the film I disliked the most is the way in which they humanised the generals, both SS and wehrmacht, again clinging onto this type of ahistorical nonsense that Hitler was solely to blame and that the generals were all decent men being forced to carry out his crazy orders. This is not the case - and infact it has some parallels with the "stab in the back" stuff that followed the first world war, that it wasn't the utter incompetence and stupidity of Hindenberg and Ludendorf that lost the war it was some other external group that betrayed these fine generals from the victory they so clearly deserved, in that case it was Jews who were scapegoated by after the war, in this case Hitler shoulders all the blame for these gross tactical errors not the Generals.

And just like world war 1 the competence and conduct of the Wehrmacht was never called into question, it was always this idea that Hitler was some imbecile who wouldn't listen to the sound and pragmatic advice of his generals rather than their fault that seemed to stick. At the end of the first world war the conduct of Hindenberg and Ludendorf was self-serving and disgusting, but they ended up coming home as war heroes because they successfully found a scapegoat, and after the second world war something similar happened except that it was Hitler personally. Another myth that comes up as a result of this is that Hitler was some tactically inept fool who ignored or bullied his generals sound advice, actually this isn't true. For starters the single most impressive tactical decision made during the war, the decision to attack France using a small number of fast and mobile mechanised divisions to go straight through the maginot line rather than through Belgium, where the French army was amassing, thus cutting off the bulk of the French army from Paris and causing total disarray, was Hitler's idea not his generals. Likewise the idea that Hitler refused to allow German soldiers to retreat is also a myth, from time to time he certainly did allow them to retreat, and this notion of his furiously refusing to allow these tactics was only really true by the beginning of 1945, by which time he had started to lose his grip on reality and of course by this point the war was lost. Some of the worst tactical decisions of the war were as a result of Wehrmacht generals giving incredibly bad advice, all of which gets badly overlooked.

Anyway sorry for the digression it's not really the thread for it I know.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 24, 2014)

This has to be one the most stupid pieces of insectional commentary i've read  -

*Hashtags as Decolonial Projects with Radical Origins*


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2014)

captainmission said:


> This has to be one the most stupid pieces of insectional commentary i've read  -
> 
> *Hashtags as Decolonial Projects with Radical Origins*


I just can't read that article. It's virtually impenetrable.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 24, 2014)

I suspect someone isn't as clever as they think they are.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2014)

Of course observers swooping in to co-opt, erase, steal, or gawk at our digital lives cannot understand our communities, instead simplifying them according to their aesthetic identity categories.


----------



## andysays (Mar 24, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> I agree with you on this point of collective punishment btw, not all individual soldiers in the wehrmacht were war criminals deserving immediate execution, but it's worth mentioning something here which is often overlooked...
> 
> ...Anyway sorry for the digression it's not really the thread for it I know.



This is (at least) a digression of a digression of a digression, but...

I agree broadly with the points you're making, but there are always myths which emerge or are constructed after wars (and other major events too, of course).

I also suggest that it wasn't only the German high command of WW2 of whom it could be said that many of them were, at times

of questionable competence and conduct
complicit in war crimes and careless of the human cost of their actions

supportive and encouraging of the barbarous geopolitical aims of their state's government and/or ruling class
In fact that has probably been more often true of military high commands than not, in whatever time and place you care to mention.


----------



## rioted (Mar 24, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> i for one am touched by treelovers regard for the wellbeing of nazi stormtroopers.


Perhaps it's the conscripts he's concerned for. Perhaps he doesn't think that all Germans were nazis, even the ones forced to fight. Perhaps he has some humanity. Which I realise is taboo for real revolutionaries.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 24, 2014)

andysays said:


> This is (at least) a digression of a digression of a digression, but...
> 
> I agree broadly with the points you're making, but there are always myths which emerge or are constructed after wars (and other major events too, of course).
> 
> ...



I agree entirely, infact our own generals were often guilty of some extremely unscrupulous behaviour. And Curtis LeMay openly stated that he'd have been tried as a war criminal if they'd lost the war, for the firebombing of Tokyo and the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. LeMay was a fucking horrible piece of work as bad as anyone in the Wehrmacht in my opinion, but yes this is way too much of a digression we should take this to the history forum really. Maybe a thread to discuss the myths and misconceptions of world war 2?


----------



## rekil (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah David, who gives a shit about some grief stricken forrins lol.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 25, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I suspect someone isn't as clever as they think they are.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 25, 2014)

http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/03...ts-and-foreigners-are-plotting-white-genocide



> Being raised to expect special treatment because of your race or gender doesn't make you a bad person.  A lot of my friends really are straight, white men, and most of them aspire to be decent human beings, and many of them struggle every day with how to negotiate their own privilege and find models of masculinity they can live with in a world where they find themselves less powerful and more vulnerable than they ever expected



The lack of self-awareness and erasure of social class here is staggering.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 25, 2014)

'...and most of them aspire to be decent human beings.'


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 25, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> '...and most of them aspire to be decent human beings.'



Others remain unevolved.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 25, 2014)

Maybe less of her friends would be white if she wasn't a privately educated Oxbridge grad but then again if she wasn't then no one would have heard of her and she wouldn't be able to browbeat them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2014)

rioted said:


> Perhaps it's the conscripts he's concerned for. Perhaps he doesn't think that all Germans were nazis, even the ones forced to fight. Perhaps he has some humanity. Which I realise is taboo for real revolutionaries.


yeh. but perhaps he doesn't.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 25, 2014)




----------



## Theisticle (Mar 25, 2014)

Is the concept of class so hard for these individuals to grasp?


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 25, 2014)

And capitalism isn't the tool of subordination for the working class? Jesus Christ. Identity politics. Geez.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 25, 2014)

god its not a fucking competition.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 25, 2014)

I found this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...sian-american-women-are-notyourasiansidekick/

She seems ok.

I think it's easy to take tweets out of context.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> god its not a fucking competition.


Intersectionality and identity politics always seem to end up in some kind of priv off though.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 25, 2014)

8115 said:


> I found this.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...sian-american-women-are-notyourasiansidekick/
> 
> ...



Just look over her timeline, a pretty consistent picture emerges.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Is the concept of class so hard for these individuals to grasp?



I think it isn't for some.  It's avoided because then they'd have to start thinking more seriously about 'privilege.'


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Intersectionality and identity politics always seem to end up in some kind of priv off though.




ennit- theres also the assumption in that tweet that no person without colour ever gets a raw deal from the capitalist set up.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 25, 2014)

oh god I'm using the terminology now


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh god I'm using the terminology now


*loads gun*


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 26, 2014)

Laurie picks an easy target (Men's rights activists)

http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...think-feminists-are-plotting-“white-genocide”


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 26, 2014)

Laurie Penny: the right-on Bernard O'Mahoney.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh god I'm using the terminology now


you have internalised it


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> '...and most of them aspire to be decent human beings.'



Meaning, in Penny Dreadful's exalted position of constant infallibility, that they'd like to be but aren't quite there yet. In Her Majesty's oh-so-consequential opinion.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> god its not a fucking competition.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 26, 2014)

More like


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2014)

"Keep out of the black and in the red, you'll get nothing in this game for two in a bed". A shocking and, frankly, rather moralistic take on Bakunin's struggles with Marx.


----------



## rekil (Mar 26, 2014)

The New Statesman wants WAR (and lol in advance at LP's shit article)


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2014)

whats the huge not at all xenophobic depiction of a bear got round its neck?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 26, 2014)

Wow, is Helen Lewis trying to outdo her predecessor?







Time to re-arm: bomb the New SStatesman


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2014)

Can't wait for the Pickettywitch's article on what Marx got wrong.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 26, 2014)

The economy is fucked; the environment is going down the pan, what we need is an evil enemy to take the proles minds off things.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Wow, is Helen Lewis trying to outdo her predecessor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



christ


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2014)

Wilf said:


> "Keep out of the black and in the red, you'll get nothing in this game for two in a bed". A shocking and, frankly, rather moralistic take on Bakunin's struggles with Marx.



To be fair to Laurie (  ), she has already made clear that as a queer practioner of polyandry, she regards anyone still engaging in boring old vanilla sex as somewhat beneath her. 

In her game, you only get points for three in a bed at an absolute minimum


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2014)

andysays said:


> she has already made clear that as a queer practioner of polyandry, she regards anyone still engaging in boring old vanilla sex as somewhat beneath her.


has she?


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2014)

killer b said:


> has she?



hasn't she?


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2014)

She hasn't in any of the articles I've read. Maybe I've missed something. Link me up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 26, 2014)

andysays said:


> To be fair to Laurie (  ), she has already made clear that as a queer practioner of polyandry


Polyamory rather than polyandry I would have thought.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 26, 2014)

killer b said:


> She hasn't in any of the articles I've read. Maybe I've missed something. Link me up.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/20/polyamorous-shows-no-traditional-way-live
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/09/true-love-idea-cruel-life
http://coilhouse.net/2012/07/a-radical-gabfest-with-authoractivist-laurie-penny/

etc


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2014)

killer b said:


> She hasn't in any of the articles I've read. Maybe I've missed something. Link me up.



I believe it was linked to here so you're welcome to go back and have a look (please be aware that I'm not claiming what I said she said as a direct quote, rather my interpretation of what she was saying, so once you've found it, you may well disagree with my interpretation...)

And DaveCinzano has corrected my mistaken memory - as he says polyamory rather than polyandry  at self


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2014)

enough about pennies sex life ffs


them statesman covers are shit. the dodgy as fuck one with the star of david rampant over a union flag particularly so


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/20/polyamorous-shows-no-traditional-way-live
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/09/true-love-idea-cruel-life
> http://coilhouse.net/2012/07/a-radical-gabfest-with-authoractivist-laurie-penny/
> 
> etc


I'm aware she practices polyamory, just wondering how this meant she viewed vanilla fucking as beneath her? there's really no need to make stuff up.


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2014)

killer b said:


> I'm aware she practices polyamory, just wondering how this meant she viewed vanilla fucking as beneath her? there's really no need to make stuff up.



Wow, that's some serious speed reading


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> enough about pennies sex life ffs
> 
> 
> them statesman covers are shit. the dodgy as fuck one with the star of david rampant over a union flag particularly so


That's from 12 years ago mind.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2014)

andysays said:


> Wow, that's some serious speed reading


I've read some of them before. But also, I've read lots of her other writing. Implying some kind of superiority of one kind of sexuality over another isn't really her is it?

As I say, feel free to criticise her for the things she actually writes. making straw men to shout at her about - based on her sexuality ffs - is stupid though.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's from 12 years ago mind.



Yes, and it's worth pointing out that Lewis has condemned it, but the xenophobia of the latest cover shows some similarly bad judgement.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Yes, and it's worth pointing out that Lewis has condemned it, but the xenophobia of the latest cover shows some similarly bad judgement.


The continuity of the politically middle-brow.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 26, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Laurie picks an easy target (Men's rights activists)
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/2014/03/laurie-penny-what-drives-men-who-think-feminists-are-plotting-“white-genocide”



that's horrible and it's a shame because theres a really good opportunity there to talk about how scarcity, particularly of housing, leads to divisive attitudes.  There are lots of single older homeless people who resent young mums, or immigrant families, being given priority for housing when they get precisely fuck all help - this is one way that lack of housing/homelessness manifests in social attitudes and ultimately leads to increased isolation and marginalisation.  Add to that the gender war shit that is dominant in mainstream culture, men are from mars etc, and perhaps a failed relationship/family and it is not difficult to see how someone might end up feeling like that poor bastard she interviews.

But instead she wrote a ha ha lets point and laugh at the weird homeless person I met piece, all justified by a fake narrative of a 'new bigotry' which as the other thread shows is a tiny bunch of cranks who've been around since at least the 70s.

and this



> I know this because, if it was, I would be sitting on a gigantic golden throne with oiled flunkies feeding me chocolate biscuits



You are Penny, from where that bloke you interviewed is looking.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 26, 2014)

What's worse is that she doesn't even suggest any way that people as a whole can move past their misdirected anger and towards addressing the roots of their frustrations. They are just scum, fodder for her to mock as losers in life and she is making money while doing it.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 26, 2014)

That's the point, it doesn't matter, Penny has her hate figure. Rather than critically engage the root of the problem she builds him as a strawman to burn. He's homeless, no steady job, or right of reply. He's stripped down to some angry cliches and assumed anger. 

It's almost like she only chose the quotes to fit the article. It wasn't an interrogation of this man's anger or alienation but rather Penny confirming to herself and friends what a hideous man this person is, he might well be, but Penny does little outside of soundbites to accurately represent his views. 

Sloppy journalism.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> That's the point, it doesn't matter, Penny has her hate figure. Rather than critically engage the root of the problem she builds him as a strawman to burn. He's homeless, no steady job, or right of reply. He's stripped down to some angry cliches and assumed anger.
> 
> It's almost like she only chose the quotes to fit the article. It wasn't an interrogation of this man's anger or alienation but rather Penny confirming to herself and friends what a hideous man this person is, he might well be, but Penny does little outside of soundbites to accurately represent his views.
> 
> Sloppy journalism.



It's known in the trade as a 'hatchet job.' It doesn't matter what the subject of the article think, says or does. Nor does it really matter who they are. They're simply there to be pilloried and attacked, seldom with the right of rebuttal or reply. The target could be the nicest, most decent person on the planet and from a piece like that you wouldn't know that if you hadn't actually met them.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 26, 2014)

She quotes him 6 times (?). I honestly doubt this conversation lasted all of 10 minutes. But like you say, hatchet job.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 26, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> It's known in the trade as a 'hatchet job.' It doesn't matter what the subject of the article think, says or does. Nor does it really matter who they are. They're simply there to be pilloried and attacked, seldom with the right of rebuttal or reply. The target could be the nicest, most decent person on the planet and from a piece like that you wouldn't know that if you hadn't actually met them.



Hang on a second here. We are talking about an MRA involved with the rabid website "A Voice For Men". We can take it for granted that he's a misogynistic wanker. Most of Penny's article may be an exercise in liberal smugness, but I very much doubt if she had to misrepresent this guy at all to make him look bad. MRAs are rather like Loyalists in full "Fenians Out!" mode in that regard - reliably obnoxious.

Let's not start making every prick that liberals don't like into some silenced exemplar of proletarian grievances.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 26, 2014)

The guy's blog is atrocious. But she's drawing on one very angry asshole to make some grander point and it really doesn't work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> The guy's blog is atrocious. But she's drawing on one very angry asshole to make some grander point and it really doesn't work.


for me it all falls apart from the line 'some of my best friends are straight white men'


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 26, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> The guy's blog is atrocious. But she's drawing on one very angry asshole to make some grander point and it really doesn't work.



Sure, but that's a different objection: this clown isn't representative of any interesting new phenomenon is one argument. This clown is alright really and is being unfairly done over by a snooty metropolitan liberal is another.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2014)

Check out @suttonnick's Tweet: 

Horrendous front cover.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 26, 2014)

the point isnt whether this guys a dick, but whether he became a dick in social isolation, or is there a material reason for his dickness and those like him since he's presented as an archetype for the 'new bigotry'.  is his sense of injustice valid but mis-directed, or is it just what she calls it, out and out bigotry.  and if so what gives him and his fellow dicks a sea to swim in.



> “As you go down the social scale, men are totally disposable. A man on the minimum wage – what chance does he have?”



is he wrong here, why with all his white male privilege would he think that?  Is he just "adrift in an uncertain world"?  Thats where the story is, that how this new bigotry* as a social force is emerging, thats where the analysis should go, and also the where the challenge to dick needs to come from, but she cant be bothered to do this, and neither can the rest of the commentariat by and large - all they have to offer is look at this dick

*its a bit of a moot point anyway, because this new social force doesnt really exist and was invented by laurie so she could laugh at a dick


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Check out @suttonnick's Tweet:
> 
> Horrendous front cover.





but what has the evil russian bear got around its throat? it looks like a waxy red disc. Is that supposed to represent crimea or something?


----------



## Belushi (Mar 26, 2014)

And whats with Arabia being renamed the Gulf and SE Asia baring no resemblance to the actual geography?


----------



## Belushi (Mar 26, 2014)

The Red Sea also appears to have become a lake and an entirely new island appeared off the coast of Yemen.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2014)

also the three leaders of a mailed fist of force that can be projected anywhere in the world with frightening speed is somewhat underplayed by having the big three standing timid before a raging bear.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> The New Statesman wants WAR (and lol in advance at LP's shit article)
> 
> View attachment 50963


Love the really shit pictures of Merkel, Obama and Cameron.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 26, 2014)

Also, all the places that are being pierced by the Russian bears arrows have recently been invaded/ liberated, devastated by Germany, Britain or the USA


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Hang on a second here. We are talking about an MRA involved with the rabid website "A Voice For Men". We can take it for granted that he's a misogynistic wanker. Most of Penny's article may be an exercise in liberal smugness, but I very much doubt if she had to misrepresent this guy at all to make him look bad. MRAs are rather like Loyalists in full "Fenians Out!" mode in that regard - reliably obnoxious.
> 
> Let's not start making every prick that liberals don't like into some silenced exemplar of proletarian grievances.



The point isn't the interviewee in question, it's that if a hack has already decided they're doing a hatchet job then the interviewee could be Saint Francis of Assisi and, no matter what views they espoused, how reasonably they espoused them or how solid their facts and reasoning, they'd still be slated, misquoted and their standpoint spun to fit the hack's pre-determined intent. 

If a hack or their editor has already decided to rip a person or viewpoint to shreds then it doesn't matter how nice or nasty the interviewee might be. They'll be shredded into little pieces all the same. Granted, some targets are easier than others, but if a hack wants to smear then they'll find a way to do it.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 26, 2014)

Belushi said:


> The Red Sea also appears to have become a lake and an entirely new island appeared off the coast of Yemen.



I think it's meant to be Socotra


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 26, 2014)

Look at the people I sketched! Gotta insert herself in the story somehow.

http://www.vice.com/read/theater-of-justice


----------



## kavenism (Mar 26, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Hang on a second here. We are talking about an MRA involved with the rabid website "*A Voice For Men*". We can take it for granted that he's a misogynistic wanker. Most of Penny's article may be an exercise in liberal smugness, but I very much doubt if she had to misrepresent this guy at all to make him look bad. MRAs are rather like Loyalists in full "Fenians Out!" mode in that regard - reliably obnoxious.
> 
> Let's not start making every prick that liberals don't like into some silenced exemplar of proletarian grievances.



That website is hilariously bad. This example of their highly calibrated 'humanist counter-theory' had me spitting my green tea over the table. 

"In Plato’s Republic (or the Symposium – I no longer remember which one and do not care to look it up) the Greek generals were talking about their own penises.  One general made a comment to the effect that when he was in his younger years, he wanted to cut it off so he could spend just one day thinking about things other than sex.  (No, he was not transgender, nor did he despise masculinity: he was joking; men do that.)"


----------



## rekil (Mar 27, 2014)

Self-styled radical journalist in no idea wtf is going on shock.


----------



## rekil (Mar 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> but what has the evil russian bear got around its throat? it looks like a waxy red disc. Is that supposed to represent crimea or something?


Maybe it had been a star of david. Makes you think.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> but what has the evil russian bear got around its throat? it looks like a waxy red disc.



Russians _really like_ Mini Babybels.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Self-styled radical journalist in no idea wtf is going on shock.




Nothing Laurie, as you weren't here. We were just waiting for you to come back. For an internet booster (sorry radically horizontal communication device) you'd think she'd at least be able to use the bloody thing to read the news from the UK whilst helping the homeless abroad.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2014)

Capitalizing pronouns can invalidate social justice struggles apparently


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Capitalizing pronouns can invalidate social justice struggles apparently



Unlike monetising social justice struggles, obviously.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Self-styled radical journalist in no idea wtf is going on shock.



There's no excuse for such laziness now you can read the internet on your phone, even from abroad, or local internet cafes, or a mate's computer. It's just a 'look at me' tweet, in her typical 'you lot be my researchers' style.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2014)

Where was she, anyway? Oooh, did she go to that thing with Molly Crabapple at that private club in New York last Thursday? That members only thing?

ETA: Yes, she was in New York.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 27, 2014)

LP going down like a water balloon filled with shit


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2014)

To be fair I like not going on the internet when I am on holiday


----------



## Balbi (Mar 27, 2014)

It's a talk about Sex Workers, with SW's in the audience and Laurie's gone off on a me, me, me angle. The SW's are NOT happy bunnies.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2014)

Balbi said:


> It's a talk about Sex Workers, with SW's in the audience and Laurie's gone off on a me, me, me angle. The SW's are NOT happy bunnies.


Understandably so. It's not a talk about LP, after all.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 27, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Understandably so. It's not a talk about LP, after all.



One of my twitter follows has gone "I'm not there, but I guess it's gone as I predicted" to a chorus of ayes from within Foyles


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> To be fair I like not going on the internet when I am on holiday


But the second you're back you don't send a tweet saying 'What happened while I was away', you just start perusing the interwebs.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 27, 2014)

LP now fighting a rearguard action, claiming illness as her reason for her misgendering and cissexism and that. Oops.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 27, 2014)

All kicking off


----------



## Greebo (Mar 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> All kicking off <snip>


Excuse me while I book the electron microscope in order the play the world's smallest violin...


----------



## weepiper (Mar 27, 2014)

What the fuck? Really. These people are truly living in a different world.


----------



## treelover (Mar 27, 2014)

All this is really bizarre and a head fuck, maybe the sixties were like this, but there were other better movements around as well.


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2014)

weepiper said:


> What the fuck? Really. These people are truly living in a different world.




None of them noticed or commented on the class assumption of "this lady here" then...


----------



## rekil (Mar 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> To be fair I like not going on the internet when I am on holiday


She was posting on twitter every day over there, and anyway, the teachers strike was announced ages ago. She has no interest and couldn't be bothered to pretend to be interested so it didn't get the mention.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2014)

Why does everything have to be an act of solidarity lol?


----------



## weepiper (Mar 27, 2014)

Boring old heteronormative teachers and their tedious worries about 60-hour weeks and working til they're 68.


----------



## rekil (Mar 27, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Boring old heteronormative teachers and their tedious worries about 60-hour weeks and working til they're 68.


You saddo normals don't understaaand.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 27, 2014)

She comes across like a fifteen year old.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 27, 2014)

Belushi said:


> She comes across like a fifteen year old.


A fifteen year old would be slightly more self aware.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 28, 2014)

She was sick though! Oh man, it's parody levels now.


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2014)

Kimberle Crenshaw LSE talk about intersectionality from the other day if anyone is interested. 

http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=2360


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> She was sick though! Oh man, it's parody levels now.



What did she actually do?


----------



## Brechin Sprout (Mar 28, 2014)

Belushi said:


> She comes across like a fifteen year old.


And the amount of attention she's getting from "adults" on here is well dodgy. Find someone a bit more mature to have a go at.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What did she actually do?



Referred to someone as a lady when responding to a question


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Referred to someone as a lady when responding to a question


I thought that was the case but couldn't actually believe it. Beyond a joke now.


----------



## The Pale King (Mar 28, 2014)

Hoist by her own petard.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 28, 2014)

I reckon one day Laurie is going to go mad mel and make an (openly) right wing turn.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

yes, this referring to someone as a woman could be a foreshadowing of the horribleness to come. We can't say we weren't warned.

_Only one thing could have broken our movement – if the adversary had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed with extreme brutality the nucleus of our new movement._


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2014)

Dillinger4 said:


> I reckon one day Laurie is going to go mad mel and make an (openly) right wing turn.


Smartest (and nerdiest, weirdest and bookiest) girl in a smart school - it's going to happen.


> This whole edifice of civilization is in its foundations and in all its stones nothing else than the result of the creative capacity, the achievement, the intelligence, the industry, of individuals: in its greatest triumphs it represents the great crowning achievement of individual God-favored geniuses, in its average accomplishment the achievement of men of average capacity, and in its sum doubtless the result of the use of human labor-force in order to turn to account the creations of genius and of talent. So it is only natural that when the capable intelligences of a nation, which are always in a minority, are regarded only as of the same value as all the rest, then genius, capacity, the value of personality are slowly subjected to the majority and this process is then falsely named the rule of the people. For this is not rule of the people, but in reality the rule of stupidity, of mediocrity, of half-heartedness, of cowardice, of weakness, and of inadequacy.
> 
> IT IS ABSURD TO BUILD UP ECONOMIC LIFE ON THE CONCEPTIONS OF ACHIEVEMENT, OF THE VALUE OF PERSONALITY, AND THEREFORE IN PRACTICE ON THE AUTHORITY OF PERSONALITY, BUT IN THE POLITICAL SPHERE TO DENY THE AUTHORITY OF PERSONALITY AND TO THRUST INTO ITS PLACE THE LAW OF THE GREATER NUMBER - DEMOCRACY.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 28, 2014)

I need some help from Urban 75's finest intersectionalistas and this seems like as good a place to post it as any.

I am a white cis male and last night I used my privilege to intervene in a racist and sexist incident.

A Turkish cis male was sitting outside a pub. Two black cis women walked past. He called one of them a "Black bitch" - it was not clear why.

The woman unsurprisingly took offence to this and got up in his face and asked him to repeat himself - which he did. She then tipped his full pint over him and gave him an almighty tongue lashing, which I have to say made me proud to live in Hackney.

He then stood up. And picked up his now empty glass.

At this point I figured enough was enough and stood in the midde of them and said something completely fucking stupid like "hey hey hey".

This diffused the situation and they went their seperate ways.

However I am concerned that I used my white/cis-gender privilege and perhaps should have "sat down and shut up" and not mansplained.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I need some help from Urban 75's finest intersectionalistas and this seems like as good a place to post it as any.
> 
> I am a white cis male and last night I used my privilege to intervene in a racist and sexist incident.
> 
> ...


You've already called one person in this interaction a woman you fucking monster.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You've already called one person in this interaction a woman you fucking monster.


 
I am willing to learn


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2014)

are you on the old/unnatractive spokes? check the wheel and count up your points.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I need some help from Urban 75's finest intersectionalistas and this seems like as good a place to post it as any.
> 
> I am a white cis male and last night I used my privilege to intervene in a racist and sexist incident.
> 
> ...



You have been sentenced to wear itchy underpants for a fortnight, and write up your shameful actions as an apologetic 5,000 word blog (which you must also edit down into a 1,000 piece for CiF).


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> are you on the old/unnatractive spokes? check the wheel and count up your points.


 
Good call. 44 and slightly overweight. But that is about all I have to offer unless I big up my chronic but not actually noticeable nervous disorder.

I once fancied a boy when I was a teenager and don't like football so I was edging towards genderqueer too, but I think that is stretching it a bit?


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2014)

Bad case of white saviour complex imo. Did you even bother to ascertain how the 'male' poc chooses to self-identify?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> Bad case of white saviour complex imo. Did you even bother to ascertain how the 'male' poc chooses to self-identify?


 
I felt that might inflame the situation. But on reflection that was just my own swaggering assumption.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> She was sick though! Oh man, it's parody levels now.



All the painkiller drugs? Really? I could perhaps understand it if she was on fentanyl or morphine but I doubt she was on those.


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I need some help from Urban 75's finest intersectionalistas and this seems like as good a place to post it as any.
> 
> I am a white cis male and last night I used my privilege to intervene in a racist and sexist incident.
> 
> A Turkish cis male was sitting outside a pub. Two black cis women walked past. He called one of them a "Black bitch" - it was not clear why...



i hope you don't need me to point out the cis-normative assumption you've made there...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 28, 2014)

andysays said:


> i hope you don't need me to point out the cis-normative assumption you've made there...


 
In that I assumed they were cis? Good point 

Actually to be fair I didn't think about that at the time, just in the retelling of it.


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> All the painkiller drugs? Really? I could perhaps understand it if she was on fentanyl or morphine but I doubt she was on those.



Check your "resiliance to Lemsip" privilege, you oppressor!!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 28, 2014)

andysays said:


> Check your "resiliance to Lemsip" privilege, you oppressor!!


I shall check my Lemsip privileges forthwith.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Anyway, well done fozzie you're a real mensch.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 28, 2014)




----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2014)

'spouse' minus 10 pts


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


>


The italics are the best example of anti-somerset privilege i think i've ever seen.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 28, 2014)

Aren't there some groups which insist that you ask about any preferred pronoun before using one? It seems totally reasonable to change the way you address someone based on their preference but I can't believe that people expect others to go around asking that before every new interaction that they have.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The italics are the best example of anti-somerset privilege i think i've ever seen.


Some of my best friends have been eye-tall-icks.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2014)

To be fair to Penny, the weird self flagellation about having "gendered" people was directly in response to people complaining about it on twitter. Ie there is now a wider milieu that regards it as "cissexist" to assume people are the gender they present themselves as until corrected. Not much of a wider milieu, but one you have to appease if you plan to stay credible among twittersectionals.

It's not even an irrational position, though it is irredeemably sub cultural and unlikely to get any further than providing ammunition for social media social justice warrior status games. But who am I to sneer? In theory I'm in favour of abolishing gendered pronouns in their entirety, although I'm not silly enough to try to wage a tiny sub cultural campaign to actually enforce such a change in the here and now.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

She immediately bought into it as hers, as one that she was part of and that had accidentally stepped out of - and then spent some time trying to fit into these dicks world. Fuck her.

Each word, each step, each action (as if) driving that wedge further. Good.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 28, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> A Turkish cis male was sitting outside a pub.



How do you know he was Turkish?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She immediately bought into it as hers, as one that she was part of and that had accidentally stepped out of - and then spent some time trying to fit into these dicks world. Fuck her.
> 
> Each word, each step, each action (as if) driving that wedge further. Good.



My point wasn't that Penny's just great, but that as so often she is representative of a type. Usually, she's this place's favourite stand in for liberal-left media self-promoters as a whole, but on this occasion she's acting so as to fit in with a more "grassroots" variant of twitter intersectionalism. (Which at another remove is part of maintaining her personal brand amongst the liberal-leftish media sorts)


----------



## J Ed (Mar 28, 2014)

What a dick. I actually think that the BS around 'man flu' is harmful and in some cases stops men who are seriously ill from going to the doctors when necessary


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> My point wasn't that Penny's just great, but that as so often she is representative of a type. Usually, she's this place's favourite stand in for liberal-left media self-promoters as a whole, but on this occasion she's acting so as to fit in with a more "grassroots" variant of twitter intersectionalism. (Which at another remove is part of maintaining her personal brand amongst the liberal-leftish media sorts)


I know that you don't think that she's great - really. My point was that she had stepped out of and quickly tried to jump back into this dual market - this dual authenticity. Hence her scrabbling around on her knees in the one she is less powerful in, the one where anyone can her to fuck. Going through this idiocy to emerge as an authentic ally is probably easier then the real world being left wing market.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What a dick. I actually think that the BS around 'man flu' is harmful and in some cases stops men who are seriously ill from going to the doctors when necessary



Beyond pathetic._ It's only ball cancer._


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 28, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How do you know he was Turkish?



It was an assumption based on his appearance and accent. I wouldn't usually bother to mention ethnicity like that.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I know that you don't think that she's great - really. My point was that she had stepped out of and quickly tried to jump back into this dual market - this dual authenticity. Hence her scrabbling around on her knees in the one she is less powerful in, the one where anyone can all her to fuck. Going through this idiocy to emerge as an authentic ally is probably easier then the real world being left wing market.



Can't disagree with any of that.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2014)

A rare moment of commentariat-positive urbanism: Dominic Fox put up a really good series of tweets on aspects of the "sex work" debate today. Of course,he got very little response.

Twitter.com/domfox


----------



## J Ed (Mar 28, 2014)




----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


>




The context of that one is important though, because he goes on to say that he's in favour, ideally, of people being equally free to say that they don't want to go to work. His point in this part of his tweet series was that in every other circumstance we recognise sex as distinct because of intimacy and issues of bodily autonomy - eg anyone saying that sexual trauma is no different to any other form of physical trauma would be immediately recognised as being "obtuse".

His concentration on what might sarcastically be called the agency and choices of punters is also a welcome corrective. Plus his comparison between the effects of economic coercion on "consent" with situations in which married women have "consented" under forms of coercion was very sharp.

I'm not at all surprised that he only got one biter.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> You saddo normals don't understaaand.


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2014)

This clown.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

weepiper said:


>



I hate that band but perfect


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> This clown.



The retreat of the OWS tide really did leave some giant turds behind on the beach. This lad and Tunney, Jesus fucking Christ.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck her.



_Fuck they_


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The retreat of the OWS tide really did leave some giant turds behind on the beach. This lad and Tunney, Jesus fucking Christ.


And Harris and Crabapple. Ben Gilroy here?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2014)

christopher reiss who done that hilarious article about a stone being thrown at a google van 'a shot that rang out across the world'

if that was he.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 28, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It was an assumption based on his appearance and accent. I wouldn't usually bother to mention ethnicity like that.


How, for that matter, do you know he was cis instead of a very happy post op (or very convincing transitioning) trans?


----------



## Greebo (Mar 28, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _Fuck they_


"Them".  Confusing as it may be for some people, the nonsexist "they" always takes the plural in the appropriate case, never the singular.  Even when "they" refers to one person.

If you prefer it, "hir" has also been attempted as a nonsexist pronoun.  It's inelegant and sometimes still sounds sexist so is less widely used than "they/them/their".


----------



## captainmission (Mar 28, 2014)

we should just adopt a language with non-gendered pronouns, like farsi or bengali. Women must have it great in countries where those languages are spoken.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Greebo said:


> "Them".  Confusing as it may be for some people, the nonsexist "they" always takes the plural in the appropriate case, never the singular.  Even when "they" refers to one person.
> 
> If you prefer it, "hir" has also been attempted as a nonsexist pronoun.  It's inelegant and sometimes still sounds sexist so is less widely used than "they/them/their".


You're not from round here are you?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2014)

One of the skiffy books I read recently has 'yt' as the indicative  pronoun self chosen by third gendered people.

bit too close to 'it' imo but in the context of the tale these are deliberate and chosen by the third gendered. iyswim


----------



## Greebo (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You're not from round here are you?


It's a countercultural thing, prevalent among people I knew and socialised with long before the Commentariat was even a blob of ink on an overused biro.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Greebo said:


> It's a countercultural thing, prevalent among people I knew and socialised with long before the Commentariat was even a blob of ink on an overused biro.


Cool, no probs - i just don't understand what you said though - not in a spikey way, i just find this stuff hard to follow.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 28, 2014)

In Spain some activists have taken to using @ or x in words which would otherwise denote gender, so todos/todas becomes todxs or tod@s. A bit silly I think.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 28, 2014)

Instead of pissing about with language and trying to pretend gender doesn't exist, why don't we spend our energy on attacking and resolving the inequalities that come with being born one sex instead of another?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

Genuine question - why don't they? Owen does as far as his labour legs will carry him but, where are these people?


----------



## weepiper (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Genuine question - why don't they? Owen does as far as his labour legs will carry him but, where are these people?



Because it's too fucking hard, isn't it? It's too much work.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Because it's too fucking hard, isn't it? It's too much work.


I think that's about - sadly - the size of it.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 28, 2014)

There's no validation in it. They want the quick fix.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cool, no probs - i just don't understand what you said though - not in a spikey way, i just find this stuff hard to follow.


Sorry, basically a lot of Neo Pagans etc were a bit politically correct and alternative anyway, so they began using "they" etc instead of "he/she" long before (20 odd years ago) the media caught up with it.  This was also encouraged by the use of first or nicknames only, and by heavy use of the net before it had become mainstream.



weepiper said:


> Instead of pissing about with language and trying to pretend gender doesn't exist, why don't we spend our energy on attacking and resolving the inequalities that come with being born one sex instead of another?


Because one way to attack and resolve those inequalities is to make it as difficult as possible to work out which gender you're interracting with before you've got to know the individual.  FWIW it's not a game.  I don't pretend to be what I'm not, I just don't always make it that obvious either.  The reaction to that can be quite enlightening and amusing.



J Ed said:


> In Spain some activists have taken to using @ or x in words which would otherwise denote gender, so todos/todas becomes todxs or tod@s. A bit silly I think.


Not as silly as you might think - Ms was a way of correcting the social injustice which made it immediately obvious whether a women is married, while men have more privacy around such matters.  Making todas/todos neuter is a reminder that we're all human and, unless genitals or gender are directly relevant, they're completely ignored.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 28, 2014)

i'm more than happy with attempting to break down the whole gender bollocks shit.  ungendered pronouns etc are a good way of doing this.  so far though, they haven't  really caught on.  that's no reason to not keep trying, but it's not really that important a fight, to me.  we've got a lot on our plate and we can deal with the linguistics later when we have the context of a wonderful shining socialist future.  what too many of the intersectionalists do is use language as a shibboleth - you MUST use the correct words for their clique otherwise you're out.  using he / she is NOT an indicator that the person speaking is a vile patriarch transphobe gender essentialist, just that they have different priorities eh.

i hope i made myself clear, i'm a bit pissed!


----------



## Greebo (Mar 28, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> <snip>what too many of the intersectionalists do is use language as a shibboleth - you MUST use the correct words for their clique otherwise you're out.  using he / she is NOT an indicator that the person speaking is a vile patriarch transphobe gender essentialist, just that they have different priorities eh.
> 
> i hope i made myself clear, i'm a bit pissed!


As crystal.


----------



## fogbat (Mar 28, 2014)

Still trying to make #pirvateedcuationsplaining a hash tag


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 28, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Still trying to make #pirvateedcuationsplaining a hash tag


#etonsplaining is perhaps a little catchier?


----------



## fogbat (Mar 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> #etonsplaining is perhaps a little catchier?



I don't think PD went there, sadly.

Now I have to go search her articles for references to Eton posh boys


----------



## Greebo (Mar 28, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Still trying to make #pirvateedcuationsplaining a hash tag


#privdsplaining?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 28, 2014)

#publicschoolsplaining?


----------



## JHE (Mar 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> In Spain some activists have taken to using @ or x in words which would otherwise denote gender, so todos/todas becomes todxs or tod@s. A bit silly I think.



As a purely written form it's fine.  Trouble is:  it is purely a written form.  

How do you pronounce it?  In Spanish @ is arroba.  You could try saying todarrobas, compañarrobas, ciudadanarrobas etc, but obviously nobody does!  Right-on types in Spain (or in 'the Spanish state' as they might tediously insist) revert to 'todos y todas', 'compañeros y compañeras', 'ciudadanos y ciudadanas' etc.  It can be very long-winded, which of course is why, when writing, they opt for the (unpronounceable) arroba-based shorthand.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 28, 2014)

#poshplaining


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2014)

Having had a discussion with a male peer and a male manager at lunchtime at work the other day where they both basically said women need to suck it up when it comes to the pay gap because we are always going to take time off work to have children I just can't bring myself to get worked up about calling someone who self identifies as male a 'lady'.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Having had a discussion with a male peer and a male manager at lunchtime at work the other day where they both basically said women need to suck it up when it comes to the pay gap because we are always going to take time off work to have children I just can't bring myself to get worked up about calling someone who self identifies as male a 'lady'.




Are both of them childless? What a pair of ignorant arses.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Are both of them childless? What a pair of ignorant arses.



Yes. It wasn't said in a 'haha you have to put up with this lol' way, more in a 'this is just the way it is, it's the natural order of things and we think it's unfair too but y'know it's never going to change because women have babies' way. I did point out how perhaps the world of work ought to have got its head round the fact that women have babies by now and found a way of accommodating that beyond men having all the advantage of getting free childcare because women stay at home and take the lifetime pay cut that comes with that and they both went 'er' at that but I don't think it really sank in.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yes. It wasn't said in a 'haha you have to put up with this lol' way, more in a 'this is just the way it is, it's the natural order of things and we think it's unfair too but y'know it's never going to change because women have babies' way. I did point out how perhaps the world of work ought to have got its head round the fact that women have babies by now and found a way of accommodating that beyond men having all the advantage of getting free childcare because women stay at home and take the lifetime pay cut that comes with that and they both went 'er' at that but I don't think it really sank in.


Clearly they don't see it as an issue that affects them, after all, if they choose to get married and have children then they won't be the ones dashing out of work to deal with a child taken ill at school or nursery.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Clearly they don't see it as an issue that affects them, after all, if they choose to get married and have children then they won't be the ones dashing out of work to deal with a child taken ill at school or nursery.


No they will just suffer from their partner earning less and therefore the family as a whole having less money.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 29, 2014)

#explainingfieldsofeton


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2014)

_Cleverland 'Splain Dealer_


----------



## Balbi (Mar 29, 2014)

A system where the privately educated form a structure which working class and less privileged people buy in and get nowhere?

My god, it's a Poncey Scheme


----------



## J Ed (Mar 29, 2014)

It isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a reverse funnel system!


----------



## rioted (Mar 29, 2014)

emanymton said:


> No they will just suffer from their partner earning less and therefore the family as a whole having less money.


argueing over slices of cake? We want the whole fucking bakery!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2014)

Turn down your wage rises do you? Or rises in benefits? Or do you just throw this tired rhetoric around?


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Clearly they don't see it as an issue that affects them, after all, if they choose to get married and have children then they won't be the ones dashing out of work to deal with a child taken ill at school or nursery.



Tbf some men do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> All the painkiller drugs? Really? I could perhaps understand it if she was on fentanyl or morphine but I doubt she was on those.



Even morphine doesn't make you talk bollocks.  All it does is disinhibits you, so that you *might* be more open to speaking your mind.  Laurie blames the drugs for her "speaking out of turn".  I'd say that the disinhibition was such that she forgot her intersectional formulae, and actually "spoke from the heart" for once in her miserable life.


----------



## rioted (Mar 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Turn down your wage rises do you? Or rises in benefits? Or do you just throw this tired rhetoric around?


I don't turn it down, no. If someone offers me a pint, I accept. But I don't go around proposing that if everyone bought me drinks the whole world would be a better place.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 30, 2014)

Personal brand building over being a good ally? Is Suey Park the new Laurie Penny?



> Portland, Oregon based writer and blogger of Navajo and Yankton Dakota descent Jacqueline Keeler pointed out that the explosion of attention given to #CancelColbert had meant that Natives had essentially been “edited out” of the conversation, with “one tweet supporting Native people for every 100 for #CancelColbert.” “Native people are messaging me that they feel their work has been co-opted,” she posted. “90,000 [people] go to stadiums EVERY SUNDAY in redface — how much hashtag trending would that equal in#CancelColbert terms? If our allies did that much twittering for us as they do for a satirical skit, redface would be banned from stadiums tomorrow.”



The whole piece is worth reading in regards to the limitations of hashtag activism.

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/03/29/stephen-colbert-racism-and-the-weaponized-hashtag/

Park completely ignores the real issue of a racist charity the Redskins owner created (which Colbert lampooned) and instead becomes solely about her campaign: http://time.com/42174/we-want-to-cancelcolbert/


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

rioted said:


> I don't turn it down, no. If someone offers me a pint, I accept. But I don't go around proposing that if everyone bought me drinks the whole world would be a better place.


What?

Tell us about the bakery again.


----------



## rekil (Mar 30, 2014)

A bit of googling (oooh, creepy!) reveals that Suey Park, a university of Illinois grad, is from Lake Zurich, an affluent suburb of Chicago where median household income is about $110k compared to around $57k for Illinois state and $51k for the US as a whole. Makes you think. I'm not going to post a pic of her house or anything, but it's dead nice.


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2014)

I remember meeting some of the early anti-CJA activists when they 'performed' at an event/rave I put on at my uni, earlier one of them had been 'crucified' on the gates of the main DHSS HQ building, a couple of years later there was a programme that feautured some of them and their 'family lives', boy, did they live in nice houses, etc. Later I met someone in RTS who's Grandfather had been Hitler's Adjudtant and others in the anti-capitalist movement who were very affluent indeed, though many were very decent people .

My point is these people have always existed, the net means they are more visible.


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2014)

http://www.38degrees.org.uk/pages/staff

Have a look at the staff of 38 Degrees, certainly fit the demographic discussed all above, including someone who is on their second internship!

note a space- hijacker(and poster on here) is now working for them

again, don't know them personally, may be very switched on people, but disabled people had to drag them kicking and screaming to promote campaigns against ATOS/DWP benefits cuts, despite them being very prominent on members interests/nominees for campaigns.


----------



## chilango (Mar 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> I remember meeting some of the early anti-CJA activists when they 'performed' at an event/rave I put on at my uni, earlier one of them had been 'crucified' on the gates of the main DHSS HQ building, a couple of years later there was a programme that feautured some of them and their 'family lives', boy, did they live in nice houses, etc. Later I met someone in RTS who's Grandfather had been Hitler's Adjudtant and others in the anti-capitalist movement who were very affluent indeed, though many were very decent people .
> 
> My point is these people have always existed, the net means they are more visible.



in fairness in the early days of the anti CJB movement "rave" was one of the main issues. So not exactly unreasonable for some "wealthier" folk to be involved.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.38degrees.org.uk/pages/staff
> 
> Have a look at the staff of 38 Degrees, certainly fit the demographic discussed all above, including someone who is on their second internship!
> 
> ...


Space hijacker


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.38degrees.org.uk/pages/staff
> 
> Have a look at the staff of 38 Degrees, certainly fit the demographic discussed all above, including someone who is on their second internship!
> 
> ...


Why are you so full of hate? Why don't you join left unity. Questions that will never be answered.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Space hijacker


He's outing someone.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He's outing someone.


I did wonder if it was that. 

Pretty low though.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 30, 2014)

Disgraceful behaviour from treelover as usual.

Answer some questions treelover you sad sack


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.38degrees.org.uk/pages/staff
> 
> Have a look at the staff of 38 Degrees, certainly fit the demographic discussed all above, including someone who is on their second internship!
> 
> ...


afaik only one space hijacker posts here and he doesn't work for 38 degrees. i wouldn't be surprised if you'd cocked it up again you stupid cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> I remember meeting some of the early anti-CJA activists when they 'performed' at an event/rave I put on at my uni, earlier one of them had been 'crucified' on the gates of the main DHSS HQ building, a couple of years later there was a programme that feautured some of them and their 'family lives', boy, did they live in nice houses, etc. Later I met someone in RTS who's Grandfather had been Hitler's Adjudtant and others in the anti-capitalist movement who were very affluent indeed, though many were very decent people .
> 
> My point is these people have always existed, the net means they are more visible.


when you say 'my uni', which do you mean - oxford or cambridge?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 30, 2014)




----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



It's called monetesing laurie.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Feminism, you lot are doing it all wrong.

_ have realised for some time now that feminist ideas go viral easily - and that can be used to sell us things._


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Feminism, you lot are doing it all wrong.
> 
> _ have realised for some time now that feminist ideas go viral easily - and that can be used to sell us things._


She clearly hasn't seen any adverts recently then. Most them are based on 1950s gender stereotypes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



advertising execs have known it for some time but la penny's only just realised it?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 30, 2014)

I feel like someone is going to have to explain to her the business model behind the newspapers and magazines she writes for...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I feel like someone is going to have to explain to her the business model behind the newspapers and magazines she writes for...


yeh she's either super-intelligent or scarily stupid (i think it was einstein who said that the difference between genius and stupidity was that genius has its limits). i tend to believe it's the latter. but either way she's excessively patronising.


----------



## Ole (Mar 30, 2014)




----------



## Ole (Mar 30, 2014)

She's an open fucking book. Is she still claiming to be a revolutionary anarchist?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Ole said:


>



Is this alan sugar or something?


----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2014)

Ole said:


>




The perfect combo of self pity, "look at how successful I am" and pure speak-your-brains stupidity

I think I'm going to put this thread on ignore from now, it's unfortunately become a groundhog day-like loop of unaware self parody


----------



## rekil (Mar 30, 2014)

Why do you all hate Success!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Ayn said:
			
		

> The ladder of success is best climbed by stepping on the rungs of opportunity.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

I wonder, is there a _successes_ union at the _staggers_?


----------



## rekil (Mar 30, 2014)

andysays said:


> The perfect combo of self pity, "look at how successful I am" and pure speak-your-brains stupidity


She's referring to crabapple here, but it still comes across as being about herself.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

_Thus is what solidarity looks like._


----------



## tim (Mar 30, 2014)

Ole said:


>


----------



## rekil (Mar 30, 2014)

800 words on The Epic Success Generation


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Space hijacker




http://www.spacehijackers.org/


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.spacehijackers.org/


Cheers for that


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> Why do you all hate Success!


that's not success. that's prostitution


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

Culture has to incorporate sexual difference. Gender abolition is false-conscience.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I feel like someone is going to have to explain to her the business model behind the newspapers and magazines she writes for...



I'd be tempted, seeing as she works for the New Statesman, to ask her to do a piece on that magazine's attitude to recognising unions at the NS...


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 30, 2014)

I could generate a Penny tweet:

Dear women of the world, you are all beautiful. Don't let the patriarchy tear you down. Want advice? Buy 'Unspeakable Things: Sex, Lies and Revolution' in July.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Culture has to incorporate sexual difference. Gender abolition is false-conscience.


Drivel. Literal drivel.  And you mean false consciousness.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Culture has to incorporate sexual difference. Gender abolition is false-conscience.


Why?


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

Why? Because that's why we have culture in the first place. It's part of our humanity that culture is adapted to.

False-consciousness because it is mecessary to resolve inequality between men and women, not possible to simply transcend gender stemming from a will to negate the other. It is a negotiated process.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> <snip> False-consciousness because it is mecessary to resolve inequality between men and women, not possible to simply transcend gender stemming from a will to negate the other. It is a negotiated process.


We seem to be talking at cross purposes here - do you agree that it's possible to slightly change perceptions and opinions (and even reality, in the end) by changing what you call something?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Why? Because that's why we have culture in the first place. It's part of our humanity that culture is adapted to.
> 
> False-consciousness because it is mecessary to resolve inequality between men and women, not possible to simply transcend gender stemming from a will to negate the other. It is a negotiated process.


That's right. There is no such thing as patriarchal culture. You prat.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

Greebo said:


> We seem to be talking at cross purposes here - do you agree that it's possible to slightly change perceptions and opinions (and even reality, in the end) by changing what you call something?


 
Changing what you call something - or the way in which we alter language - is part of an attempt to change behaviour / change how it it legitimated, so this can help improve reality. But it is insufficient and worse to address everything at the level of personal expression at the expense of what it is being expressed. This attitude ultimately tends toward an anti-political anti-culture. We are alienated as men and women, and in how we are taught to be men and women, and therefore as subjects engaged in war, in emnity against the oppressor (rather than an attempt to neutralize the deepest aspects of oppression, how it is experienced).


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Changing what you call something - or the way in which we alter language - is part of an attempt to change behaviour / change how it it legitimated, so this can help improve reality. But it is insufficient and worse to address everything at the level of personal expression at the expense of what it is being expressed. This attitude ultimately tends toward an anti-political anti-culture. We are alienated as men and women, and in how we are taught to be men and women, and therefore as subjects engaged in war, in emnity against the oppressor (rather than an attempt to neutralize the deepest aspects of oppression, how it is experienced).


Does culture exist or is it only what you think that it should ideally be? If the former then shut up. if the latter then tell yourself to shut up and stop talking jargon-drivel.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's right. There is no such thing as patriarchal culture. You prat.



Or the basis of a non-patriarchal culture in the existing cultures?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Or the basis of a non-patriarchal culture in the existing cultures?


Wtf are you on about?

Look up what culture means then apologise for saying that it really means what you would love it...i would love it...to be.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> <snip>it is insufficient and worse to address everything at the level of personal expression at the expense of what it is being expressed. This ultimately tends toward an anti-political anti-culture. <snip>


Examples of this?  and your definition of how long it takes to reach "ultimately" (days, decades, millennia?).  If none, you've failed to show your working.


Ibn Khaldoun said:


> <snip>We are alienated as men and women, and in how we are taught to be men and women<snip>


Speak for yourself.  Social conditioning can be reversed; the first step is recognising that it goes on and how it's done.  Even assuming that your claim is correct, alienated from what?


Ibn Khaldoun said:


> <snip>and therefore <snip>in emnity against the oppressor, rather than an attempt to neutralize the deepest aspects of oppression.


Okay then, get off the net and onto the barricades.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Wtf are you on about?
> 
> Look up what culture means then apologise for saying that it really means what you would love it..i would it...to be.



Well I can apologize for not being sure what the objection is precisely. Part of my argument is that gender always exists at least at the minimal level that it is an aspect of the human body (that needn't insist upon oppressive gender roles).

In any case, gender is inherent in our identity as people.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

_Gender exists._ You fucking star.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Well I can apologize for not being sure what the objection is precisely. Part of my argument is that gender always exists at least at the minimal level that it is an aspect of the human body (that needn't insist upon oppressive gender roles).<snip>


It need exist at no more a significant level than identity and discrimination based on eye colour, or skin pigmentation.  Not that I blame you for believing otherwise, you are a product of your conditioning.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Examples of this?  and your definition of how long it takes to reach "ultimately" (days, decades, millennia?).  If none, you've failed to show your working.



That was a description of an attitude, a will-suppress-difference that is reactionary.o

Examples on this thread . . . The example of those rejecting gendered pronouns, if I have to name one. But that is not all, because other posters (including BA) have been approaching towards the point about ideology.



> Speak for yourself.  Social conditioning can be reversed; the first step is recognising that it goes on and how it's done.  Even assuming that your claim is correct, alienated from what?



I think you don't you get it. Social-conditioning is too profound to just be reversed (in its entirety anyway).

Alienation from our general being and powers.



> Okay then, get off the net and onto the barricades.



I can take time off [...]


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2014)

Greebo said:


> It need exist at no more a significant level than identity and discrimination based on eye colour, or skin pigmentation.  Not that I blame you for believing otherwise, you are a product of your conditioning.



Rubbish. Sexual difference is completely universal. Race is not - it is a modern invention bound up with the emergence of capitalism.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2014)

It will take at least a century to acheive full gender equality. We can only know our true grounds of being in fully developed socialism.


----------



## xenon (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Rubbish. Sexual difference is completely universal. Race is not - it is a modern invention bound up with the emergence of capitalism.


You are mixing up sex and gender I think. And even then sex isn't universally binary. Someone will be along in the morning to explain I expect.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2014)

xenon said:


> You are mixing up sex and gender I think. And even then sex isn't universally binary. Someone will be along in the morning to explain I expect.



No, I'm not. I'm understanding their deep, dialectical relation.


----------



## xenon (Mar 31, 2014)

I don't know what that even means TBH.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 31, 2014)

"This communism, as fully developed naturalism, equals humanism, and as fully developed humanism equals naturalism . . . "


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> "This communism, as fully developed naturalism, equals humanism, and as fully developed humanism equals naturalism . . . "


Marxplaining(TM. Proletarian Democracy).


----------



## Greebo (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> It will take at least a century to acheive full gender equality. We can only know our true grounds of being in fully developed socialism.


1) Given that fully developed socialism (let alone communism) was still a significant way off (money was still in use, there was still a privileged minority at the top of the hierarchy etc) when the iron curtain lifted, how can you judge what will or won't become possible under it, let alone how much time will be needed?  Even China and Korea haven't got rid of money or got rid of hierarchical structures.

2) Gender equality is not to be conflated with sexual equality.  This is slightly before my first coffee so I'll make this simple (at least for me):

Which set of genitals you prefer your sexual partner(s) to have has little to do with whether you show more so-called feminine or masculine characteristics (not universal across all cultures and all of history).  It also has next to no link with which genitals and reproductive organs any given individual currently has or was born with.  It used to be widely believed and claimed (mostly based on observations of Europeans at the time) that men were innately the best knitters, clerks, and linguists; that only changed within the last two and a half centuries.

If something matters and will take a long time to achieve, there's little to gain by putting it off until the perfect conditions arrive, better to start now.  Unless, that is, the current system keeps you near the top.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's called monetesing laurie.



A concept one would hope that Ms Penny is familiar with, given how often her work uses her own (sometimes tenuous) feminism to "sell" the _bourgeois_-opinion-dressed-up-as-informed-comment that she retails.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Culture has to incorporate sexual difference. Gender abolition is false-conscience.



If you're going to talk clichéd shit, could you at least use the correct phrases in the correct context?

Thanks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Why? Because that's why we have culture in the first place. It's part of our humanity that culture is adapted to.
> 
> False-consciousness because it is mecessary to resolve inequality between men and women, not possible to simply transcend gender stemming from a will to negate the other. It is a negotiated process.



No-one is attempting to transcend gender.  The idea, primarily (IMO), is to render it irrelevant in the context of socio-economic relations.  That doesn't require transcendance, it requires acknowledgement of the _status quo_, and requires the emplacement of parity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Changing what you call something - or the way in which we alter language - is part of an attempt to change behaviour / change how it it legitimated, so this can help improve reality. But it is insufficient and worse to address everything at the level of personal expression at the expense of what it is being expressed.



Socially-constructing or re-constructing an idea through changed meanings doesn't "improve" reality, it re-defines the idea away from current usage, toward a new norm, and usually operates "across the board", not just at the level of personal expression.



> This attitude ultimately tends toward an anti-political anti-culture. We are alienated as men and women, and in how we are taught to be men and women, and therefore as subjects engaged in war, in emnity against the oppressor (rather than an attempt to neutralize the deepest aspects of oppression, how it is experienced).



Yes, because cultures are static and rigid, and are never fluid and/or flexible, and the ways in which we are "taught to be men and women" never changes, does it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Rubbish. Sexual difference is completely universal. Race is not - it is a modern invention bound up with the emergence of capitalism.



Sexual difference isn't universal.  Please don't make sweeping statements.  It's not even the case that sexual difference is universal so far as we currently know, given that we're well aware of single-sex organisms within our known biological categorisation schemes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2014)

xenon said:


> I don't know what that even means TBH.



To put it far less pretentiously, he means that the two things are co-existent and mutually-supportive - you can't have a conversation about gender without acknowledging the fact of sex, and _vice versa_.

Don't worry. He has a hard time posting anything in non-academese.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2014)

He has an even harder time posting in academese going by the confused nonsense he posted last night.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He has an even harder time posting in academese going by the confused nonsense he posted last night.


Thank you - there was I thinking that I was just being exceptionally thick last night while trying to decipher those posts.


----------



## rekil (Mar 31, 2014)

Dunno if this was put up before. Dippy liberal bingo - epic OWS, Lennon, Steve Jobs. Does Crabapple reckon the problem is that we don't have 'proper' capitalism?



> I am an entrepreneur. I fucking love entrepreneurship. But society as it is now cannot function if most people are entrepreneurs.  Entrepreneurs need employees.  They need infrastructure.  They need people to assemble their iphones. To condemn people, as I sometimes see done, to severe financial fuckery, for being the average working stiffs who make the world run, is privileged bullshit I can’t stomach. We ALL have a common cause in fighting the corrupt, anti-competitive oligarchy in power.
> 
> This isn’t about whether you wear designer shoes or hate the smell of weed or can’t stand fucking hippies and their drum circles.  Its about whether you support an *anti-capitalist fuedal-lord grifter class* that privatizes their profits but socializes their losses
> 
> ...


How is it possible to get Lennon wrong? And here, I assume she's attempting to draw comparisons between people protesting against Albuquerque coppers habit of killing people and those in Venezuela and/or maybe Ukraine as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2014)

That's your basic rich-girl market-libertarianism isn't it? Here's something on Steve 'doing capitalism proper'Jobs btw: Newly unsealed documents show Steve Jobs’ brutal response after getting a Google employee fired


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's your basic rich-girl market-libertarianism isn't it? Here's something on Steve 'doing capitalism proper'Jobs btw: Newly unsealed documents show Steve Jobs’ brutal response after getting a Google employee fired


 
that's exactly what it is.  she's not got a problem with capitalism really, you could replace the word 'entrepreneur' in that rant with 'capitalist' and not lose anything.  she's basically decided that the problem is that _she's not the oligarchy.  _


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 31, 2014)

she's been reading PJ O'Rourke and taking it seriously i reckon.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 31, 2014)

> future_mr_crabapple 1 point 12 months ago
> So how much money do you make a year with your many different projects? But seriously, you seem to have the ideal life of being yourself and doing what you love to do. Is it all for the art or is the Molly Crabapple empire not get out of bed for less than $25k? It's wrong for you to hold out with vital financial information if we are to be married one day.... PS Sorry I missed your AMA and hope you reply with your drunken guard down.
> 
> mollycrabapple 8 points 12 months ago
> ...


http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1bo9lw/i_am_molly_crabapple_an_artist_who_documents/

Monetise, people.


----------



## The Pale King (Mar 31, 2014)

"Expenses like giving my employees benefits"

A benevolent lady of the manor. Christmas bonus for the groundskeeper.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "Expenses like giving my employees benefits"
> 
> A benevolent lady of the manor. Christmas bonus for the groundskeeper.


And I bet a lot of those expenses are tax deductible too.


----------



## The Pale King (Mar 31, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And I bet a lot of those expenses are tax deductible too.


 
Quite so. As long as other employers are as benevolent and enlightened as Crabapple wants to advertise herself as, she does not have any problems with the economic system or its inherent exploitation. Her politics are of the wateriest variety - not even countercultural.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 31, 2014)

I wonder what those six figures are? She's definately in the top 10% of US incomes- i wonder if she makes it in to the top 1%?

edited from 5% to 10%


----------



## Belushi (Mar 31, 2014)

Employers eh? They're practically saints, working 24/7 in order to give us jobs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 31, 2014)

unlike those _elites_


----------



## agricola (Mar 31, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "Expenses like giving my employees benefits"
> 
> A benevolent lady of the manor. Christmas bonus for the groundskeeper.



Or heat, light and a cheap source of almost renewable energy - if she has indeed monetized her hotness by hooking it up to some form of steam turbine.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 31, 2014)

It's an American liberal thing.  Entrepreneurs and capitalists are good; corporations and monopolies are bad.  They think there's a contradiction between these two groups.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2014)

Dissent entrepreneurs


----------



## Greebo (Mar 31, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's an American liberal thing. <snip>


*enlightenment dawns*  That would certainly explain why some Americans have called me everything from unpatriotic to communist for expressing what seemed only slightly left of centre ideas.  eg suggesting that all the tenants in the same block clubbed together to pay for the removal of a large wasp nest on a communal landing instead of leaving it to the one whose front door was nearest.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's an American liberal thing.  Entrepreneurs and capitalists are good; corporations and monopolies are bad.  They think there's a contradiction between these two groups.



And this is also where you get 'big this' or 'big that' as a synonym for what is wrong with the world. E.g. lashing the pharmaceutical industry for being 'big pharma' - the fact that that industry is big is one of the good things about it.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 1, 2014)

I think I've finally worked out why I dislike Suey Park. For reasons like this:

Her degree of involvement in a hashtagged cause, she said, depends on how much “free time” she has at the moment, and whether a particular issue piques her interest. “It’s not like I enjoy missing ‘Scandal’ to tweet about ‘The Colbert Report,’” she said.

Park suggested that she, like West, is playing to a part and, in the process, satirizing what we might expect from a twenty-three-year-old hashtag activist. “There’s no reason for me to act reasonable, because I won’t be taken seriously anyway,” she said. “So I might as well perform crazy to point out exactly what’s expected from me.”

I know she does other work outside of Twitter but her attitude just rubs me the wrong way, again she must be the focus of the story. That NewYorker piece is a good read.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...witter-campaign-to-cancel-colbert-report.html


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I think I've finally worked out why I dislike Suey Park. For reasons like this:
> 
> Her degree of involvement in a hashtagged cause, she said, depends on how much “free time” she has at the moment, and whether a particular issue piques her interest. “It’s not like I enjoy missing ‘Scandal’ to tweet about ‘The Colbert Report,’” she said.
> 
> ...


 
I've not been following this thread as closely as some but what I don't get is why she's seen as important at all? I don't really see a problem with what she's saying there as far as it goes - so she sticks some stuff up on twitter when she can be bothered, nothing wrong with that in itself - but how does it get to the point where we're discussing her?

Like that interview with her a few pages back going on about how she 'decided to start a hashtag' as if it's some momentous achievement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I've not been following this thread as closely as some but what I don't get is why she's seen as important at all? I don't really see a problem with what she's saying there as far as it goes - so she sticks some stuff up on twitter when she can be bothered, nothing wrong with that in itself - but how does it get to the point where we're discussing her?


how long have you been on urban? haven't you yet realised that we discuss everything - and nothing?


----------



## rekil (Apr 1, 2014)

My problem with Suey Park is not that she's from a great big road full of Billy Bragg style houses in an area of Chicago that might as well be another planet as far as almost all the other city residents are concerned, yet pretends to be oppressed, but that she occupies a political space that rightfully belongs to PD. Perhaps we should approach her in a comradely manner.


----------



## rekil (Apr 1, 2014)

Looks good tbh. What can go wrong?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Looks good tbh. What can go wrong?
> 
> View attachment 51340


----------



## rekil (Apr 1, 2014)

Owen has me trying to say 'people power' without moving my lips. That's the rest of the morning gone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Owen has me trying to say 'people power' without moving my lips. That's the rest of the morning gone.


i thought you could read without moving your lips


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2014)

the inevitable check shirt


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 1, 2014)

is teh checked shirt supposed to be a signifier, i wonder.  or does he just like checked shirts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> is teh checked shirt supposed to be a signifier, i wonder.  or does he just like checked shirts.


here's a picture of a gormless owen jones not wearing a checked shirt


----------



## cesare (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Looks good tbh. What can go wrong?
> 
> View attachment 51340


That fucking shirt.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Looks good tbh. What can go wrong?
> 
> View attachment 51340



Despite generally looking about 12, he still has the haunted eyes of a man who has Gone Too Far, and Seen Too Much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Despite generally looking about 12, he still has the haunted eyes of a man who has Gone Too Far, and Seen Too Much.


nah. he just looks vacant.


----------



## cesare (Apr 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Despite generally looking about 12, he still has the haunted eyes of a man who has Gone Too Far, and Seen Too Much.


“There could not have been a lovelier sight; but there was none to see it except a little boy who was staring in at the window. He had ecstasies innumerable that other children can never know; but he was looking through the window at the one joy from which he must be for ever barred."


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Despite generally looking about 12, he still has the haunted eyes of a man who has Gone Too Far, and Seen Too Much.




you weren't there man


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Despite generally looking about 12, he still has the haunted eyes of a man who has Gone Too Far, and Seen Too Much.


If you had been booked year after year for the Left Field at Glastonbury, you too would have the Thousand Yurt Stare.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> If you had been booked year after year for the Left Field at Glastonbury, you too would have the Thousand Yurt Stare.



And now, a word from our sponsors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDRURjjKFzU_8&v=RURjjKFzU_8


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Despite generally looking about 12, he still has the haunted eyes of a man who has Gone Too Far, and Seen Too Much.


 
he met a load of urbanites int he pub once, that will do it.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Dissent entrepreneurs


 I'm liking that term even more than when I 'liked' it yesterday.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Thousand Yurt Stare.


 ... and that.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I'm liking that term even more than when I 'liked' it yesterday.


Thing is, that was a real term amongst these people a few years back, but it doesn't mean monetising dissent, it meant actually being able to sell your politics to a modern more inter-connected world. Which is not to defend it, it's a total capitulation to capitalist symbolism. That it would be reduced by the above people to,_ yeah i can make money off this, that's a good thing, it's why i'm pro-proper capitalism_ should have been obvious from the start.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Dissent entrepreneurs



Dissentrepreneurs, surely?

Selling other people's deeply-held principles since Genoa 2001.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Thing is, that was a real term amongst these people a few years back, but it doesn't mean monetising dissent, it meant actually being able to sell your politics to a modern more inter-connected world. Which is not to defend it, it's a total capitulation to capitalist symbolism. That it would be reduced by the above people to,_ yeah i can make money off this, that's a good thing, it's why i'm pro-proper capitalism_ should have been obvious from the start.


Didn't know that, cheers Butchers. As well as the origins of the term itself, what you say about it being part of a transition from 'dissent' through to being actively pro capitalist sounds spot on.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 1, 2014)

Jonnyvoid has posted an April fool piece in which the unions announce they going to defend their members and fight; unbelievable I know, but then has had a storm of protest because he is apparently belittling the suffering.

Jesus fuck the left is fucked


----------



## cesare (Apr 1, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Jonnyvoid has posted an April fool piece in which the unions announce they going to defend their members and fight; unbelievable I know, but then has had a storm of protest because he is apparently belittling the suffering.
> 
> Jesus fuck the left is fucked


Yeah I saw that  this morning and it was probably the only April Fool that "got" me for a few seconds  

Storm of protest eh, how bloody stupid.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> he met a load of urbanites int he pub once, that will do it.


Yeah, well, let's face it, it's probably not every day that he gets told to do something useful with his life.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 1, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Dissentrepreneurs, surely?
> 
> Selling other people's deeply-held principles since Genoa 2001.



Soi-disantrepeneurs.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Looks good tbh. What can go wrong?
> 
> View attachment 51340



I read the title as "rebel pants" first. I'd be more interested in that book tbh. PD should make one.


----------



## rekil (Apr 1, 2014)

..


BigTom said:


> I read the title as "rebel pants" first. I'd be more interested in that book tbh. PD should make one.


I was thinking of possible PD book covers today after seeing that anti UKIP pic.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> ..
> 
> I was thinking of possible PD book covers today after seeing that anti UKIP pic.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> ..
> 
> I was thinking of possible PD book covers today after seeing that anti UKIP pic.



Which pic?

PD should launch a book range. We can embrace the principles of Luddism and have all our books hand written in the style of 12th century monks, before the printing press ruined their profession.
The genius of this idea is that each comrade can write every book they sell themselves, having bought a blank book in wh smiths or wherever and we just get dust jackets printed!
So with no labour costs (thank you Ned Ludd) we can sell them cheap!


----------



## rekil (Apr 1, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Which pic?
> 
> PD should launch a book range. We can embrace the principles of Luddism and have all our books hand written in the style of 12th century monks, before the printing press ruined their profession.
> The genius of this idea is that each comrade can write every book they sell themselves, having bought a blank book in wh smiths or wherever and we just get dust jackets printed!
> So with no labour costs (thank you Ned Ludd) we can sell them cheap!


A hope not hate one. 6 Hitlers in a shopping trolley.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 1, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Jonnyvoid has posted an April fool piece in which the unions announce they going to defend their members and fight; unbelievable I know, but then has had a storm of protest because he is apparently belittling the suffering.
> 
> Jesus fuck the left is fucked



Oh god I just made the mistake of looking at that article and the fucking comments beneath it.

Fuck the "left" - this humourless soulless circular pissing contest of who can leap on someone the first for the slightest thing, any deviation from the oh so serious business of fighting for the oppressed via social media, infact any lapse into any kind of humanity is pounced on and treated as if it's a hate crime. They fucking deserve to lose, I'd hate to live in their world.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 1, 2014)

Wh Smith comrade?  I was sacked for stealing when I worked for them,  by a man with a framed photo of Thatcher on his desk. Petty bourgeoisie oppressors of the working classes, and no mistake.  The true proletariat buy their notebooks from pound stretcher.


----------



## andysays (Apr 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Wh Smith comrade?  I was sacked for stealing when I worked for them,  by a man with a framed photo of Thatcher on his desk. Petty bourgeoisie oppressors of the working classes, and no mistake.  The true proletariat buy their notebooks from pound stretcher.



The true proletariat steal their notebooks from wherever they can, and make sure they don't get caught


----------



## J Ed (Apr 2, 2014)

No munters in my posho Venezuelan McCarthyite riot porn, sez Molly http://www.buzzfeed.com/mollycrabapple/riot-square-sanctificare

TRIGGER WARNING FOR TOTAL LACK OF SELF-AWARENESS



> Neda was a bridge character for Western media, which was never good at understanding mass movements, but always loves a photogenic face.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 2, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Soi-disantrepeneurs.



 Très bon ma soeur.


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2014)

J Ed said:


> No munters in my posho Venezuelan McCarthyite riot porn, sez Molly http://www.buzzfeed.com/mollycrabapple/riot-square-sanctificare
> 
> TRIGGER WARNING FOR TOTAL LACK OF SELF-AWARENESS



Not defending her other stuff, of which I've read little TBH but I thought that article was alright. Just making the point the those with a message, the media have always focussed on some iconic image to present a story.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2014)

xenon said:


> Not defending her other stuff, of which I've read little TBH but I thought that article was alright. Just making the point the those with a message, the media have always focussed on some iconic image to present a story.


And it's her job to provide the media with those icons. It's a piece dripping in hypocrisy.


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And it's her job to provide the media with those icons. It's a piece dripping in hypocrisy.



She didn't seem to be objecting to the iconography she describes. It read more like. This is how it is and if you know what I do, you know I'm part of it. A hyena talking about dinner, perhaps. Ojbectionable enough on it's own terms I spose but still, thought the piece wasn't terrible as a sort of preses.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2014)

xenon said:


> She didn't seem to be objecting to the iconography she describes. It read more like. This is how it is and if you know what I do, you know I'm part of it. A hyena talking about dinner, perhaps. Ojbectionable enough on it's own terms I spose but still, thought the piece wasn't terrible as a sort of preses.


A hyena admonishing  others for killing what they eat for their (the hynena's) tea maybe.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 2, 2014)

xenon said:


> She didn't seem to be objecting to the iconography she describes. It read more like. This is how it is and if you know what I do, you know I'm part of it. A hyena talking about dinner, perhaps. Ojbectionable enough on it's own terms I spose but still, thought the piece wasn't terrible as a sort of preses.



I don't think that she's objecting to anything, it is vague because I don't think that she has any actual beliefs. She _monetizes_ the beliefs, struggles and real or perceived suffering of others to maintain her six figure income.


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that she's objecting to anything, it is vague because I don't think that she has any actual beliefs. She _monetizes_ the beliefs, struggles and real or perceived suffering of others to maintain her six figure income.



Sure, I agree she's a self serving shitstain.

I dunno. I was in the National gallery the other week, listening to the audio descriptions and so on. Reading that bit just put me in mind of some of those classic paintings I think.


----------



## rekil (Apr 2, 2014)

If crabapple knew the madres de plaza de mayo  existed, she'd be flogging doodled headscarves on her etsy, wrinkly old mingers or not.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2014)

That is a brilliant pic. We must give PD love to the mothers,


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 2, 2014)

I have no fondness for Crabapple, but that piece on pretty girl martyrdom imagery is being willfully misread on twitter by people who are rightly pissed off about her liberal imperialist gibberish about Syria. Her defence on twitter - that it's not an article about Venezuela at all - is basically correct.

There is actually something pretty creepy about dying-pretty-girl imagery, particularly when it becomes an iconic representation of a cause or issue.


----------



## rekil (Apr 2, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Her defence on twitter - that it's not an article about Venezuela at all - is basically correct.





> Her lips, wrapped around a breathing tube, became a symbol of the brutality of the Maduro regime.


No ambiguity there. Even before that, she had picked her side.


> The BBC reported she was killed by pro-government militias.


Can anyone find this BBC report?

I can only find this one on BBC Mundo, there's no mention of pro-government militias.

The bombshell bit is wrong as well afaik.


----------



## treelover (Apr 2, 2014)

> *The Tories own the future – the left is trapped in the past*
> Too many progressives remain wedded to nationalisation, the big state and jobs for life. If they can't find a more modern vision the battle is lost



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/02/tories-own-future-left-trapped-in-past

John Harris savages the Left,

is he up against the wall?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Apr 2, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/02/tories-own-future-left-trapped-in-past
> 
> John Harris savages the Left,
> 
> is he up against the wall?


He's making a very old and uncontroversial critique of the soc dem/statist left. And what he proposes instead is proper dross. The state can't hold back the neo-lib juggernaut, so what will? Neighourliness apparently


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> No ambiguity there. Even before that, she had picked her side.
> 
> Can anyone find this BBC report?
> 
> ...


I found a google book  (Household words by Stephanie Ann Smith) that said the term was originally coined in 1708 to describe a new kind of weapon - incendiary bombs falling from the sky - but quickly became the term used for any unexpected event. It was first used as slang to describe a woman during the Depression, some years before WWII.


----------



## rekil (Apr 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I found a google book  (Household words by Stephanie Ann Smith) that said the term was originally coined in 1708 to describe a new kind of weapon - incendiary bombs falling from the sky - but quickly became the term used for any unexpected event. It was first used as slang to describe a woman during the Depression, some years before WWII.


Bombshell - 1933 Jean Harlow fillum.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> Bombshell - 1933 Jean Harlow fillum.


To not do five minutes of checking on the internet is really lazy in my opinion. Very sloppy writing - I won't call it journalism. But I suppose a film title doesn't fit with narrative she was trying to put across in the article.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 2, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I have no fondness for Crabapple, but that piece on pretty girl martyrdom imagery is being willfully misread on twitter by people who are rightly pissed off about her liberal imperialist gibberish about Syria. Her defence on twitter - that it's not an article about Venezuela at all - is basically correct.
> 
> There is actually something pretty creepy about dying-pretty-girl imagery, particularly when it becomes an iconic representation of a cause or issue.



No, it's unabashed bullshit which parrots the idiotic claims of the opposition. Nasty black and mestizo commies (manipulated by smarter white Cuban commies/Jews) are killing our pretty middle-class white girls - because that is all they have and it is all that she has.

Molly Crabapple is a twitter Christopher Hitchens, getting paid to use a very thin veneer of progressive politics to bludgeon those actually working for a better world.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

> Her lips, wrapped around a breathing tube, became a symbol of the brutality of the Maduro regime.



Because of course, the nasty Maduro regime must be lying. Way to be objective.



> Five years later, you can still watch Neda die on YouTube. Again and again, a group of men will attempt CPR. The blood will leak from Neda’s mouth. Her searching eyes will go blank. You press play and add yourself to 1,628,679 viewers of this one copy of Neda’s execution. You watch, are helpless, watch again.



Is meant to make an ironic point how women in death are objectified? Because she's doing the exact same thing. The focus on blood, breathing tubes, "A policeman’s foot was caught one second before coming down on her bare stomach."



> Renaissance masters painted the church’s female martyrs as beauties, all gold hair and curves. Inevitably killed by pagans as revenge for their Christian virginity, these girls praised God through pincers and flames. Their deaths gained Jesus god knows how many converts. In paintings, the martyrs look salon-fresh as they offer up symbols of their torture. Saint Agatha smiles coyly — presenting her severed breasts on a plate. Saint Lucy’s eyes shine no less bright, though they’re pulled out of her head.



A) There's no evidence that Saint Agatha's torturers were pagan (more likely Roman.) As the BBC point out for Saint Lucy:

"The grisly story of Saint Lucy, a virgin martyr from Syracuse, whose death at the hands of the Romans resulted in her becoming the patron saint of the blind."

Crabapple also excludes the point that God restored Saint Lucy's eyes after torture ( if you believe in such legends.) Another explanation for her eyes on the plate is that Lucy is the patron saint of blindness. Lucy's name means "light", with the same root as "lucid" which means "clear, radiant, understandable." So it does not always reflect her torture. But again, with these stories that become legend, it can be hard to separate fact from fiction. As the BBC's profile of this saint points out:

"Lucy was born in 283 AD in Syracuse, Sicily, and was killed there in 303 AD during Roman persecution under the Emperor Diocletian.

Most of the other details about Lucy are probably fabrications."

According to this Catholic site (https://www.catholic.org/saints/female.php) there are 783 female saints. Not everyone is a victim of torture or male violence (if such incidents took place.) However, she picks just two brutal example to make some elongated point.

She then goes on to contradict herself with Marianne (who was rightly identified as an allegory for liberty and Republic.) She was not a real person.

But if women are always victims in war, why is one of the most iconic paintings of Marianne feature her leading men into battle?

If she had read anything by Postman, she'd understand for that many years, we have lived in an image-based culture. Especially in the age of social media, it is easy for images to be misconstrued (like in Iran.)

But it's also a stretch to suggest that the virality means "images lose politics, lose geography, lose protest."

Is "our sustained gaze" also yours Molly? You did make sure to fill in the details of their deaths. Images of saints change throughout history. They are not one image. So on that point she is wrong. Also, Marianne of France is not a saint. She is the iconography of revolution.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

I see from David Graeber's twitter feed that he's been evicted from his New York home on a 'technicality'. He is alleging a wider pattern of state harassment against some Occupy activists (presumably not the ones who monetised their hotness). Anyone else know more about this one?


----------



## rekil (Apr 3, 2014)

Looks like someone is on the ball, sort of.  "CORRECTION: The BBC did not report that Genesis Carmona was killed by pro-government militias, the post has been updated to reflect that."

Now the line says "Some reported she was killed by pro-government militias."

Some who?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 3, 2014)

Ole said:


>




#solidarityisforrichwomen


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

It's also worth noting that Crabapple referred to the democratically-elected Marudo government as a "regime," which implies the opposite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It's also worth noting that Crabapple referred to the democratically-elected Marudo government as a "regime," which implies the opposite.


no it doesn't. it means a government, esp. an authoritarian one. we're not really strangers to authoritarian regimes in this country, not after thatcher and blair.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

Oh God.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no it doesn't. it means a government, esp. an authoritarian one. we're not really strangers to authoritarian regimes in this country, not after thatcher and blair.



You're right, but in this sort of context, 'regime' is used with the implication that it's one of those _bad _authoritarian regimes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You're right


everything after 'right' is froth


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> everything after 'right' is froth



Is your life really this empty, pixie old chap?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Is your life really this empty, pixie old chap?


i'm just bored


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm just bored



This should get your blood running:


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This should get your blood running:



nsfw


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> nsfw


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


>



can't do sound at work


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> can't do sound at work



I did not expect this. Not even with headphones?


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

What a train wreck:


> *What is the best way to work with white people, to get them on our side?*
> 
> I don’t want them on our side.
> 
> ...


http://www.salon.com/2014/04/03/can...y_park_this_is_not_reform_this_is_revolution/


----------



## rekil (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This should get your blood running:



The new Bob Mould record will be a cracker if this one is anything to go by.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

Not consciousness again


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 3, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> What a train wreck:
> 
> http://www.salon.com/2014/04/03/can...y_park_this_is_not_reform_this_is_revolution/



Yes, although she is complaining that the interview has been heavily edited and presented in a way that's designed to give an impression of mumbling incoherence. There's a certain obvious truth to that: it's an editorial choice to leave in the "ums" and sentence fragments and other features of off the cuff spoken communication. If you want someone to look good, you clean that up for print. If you want to make them look addled or stupid you emphasise them. And that works on almost everyone, because very few people can speak in fully formed paragraphs, without making filler sounds, without abruptly changing direction occasionally in the middle of a sentence and so on.

That said, the core issue with the interview isn't the hostile way in which her speech patterns are reported, but the apparent incoherence of her underlying politics. She does seem more radical than her fellow "feminist of color" twitter saint Mikki Kendall, but then again people were defending Kendall's radicalism right up until she explicitly pointed out that she doesn't have a radical political outlook during her hail to the NSA, #solidarityisfordroneoperators meltdown. I would actually be interested in hearing what Park's wider political outlook is in a less hostilely presented and more thorough interview.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

To be honest I dread to think what an interview with me would be like, I always say 'like' etc too much and I'd probably end up seeming like a female Marxist version of muslamic rayguns guy


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 3, 2014)

A more sympathetic interview: http://www.bustle.com/articles/1197...o-bustle-about-racism-feminism-and-the-future


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2014)

I take it everyone's _enacted the labour_ of watching her car crash interview with Josh Zepp - the sheer incoherence that nigel mentioned is on full show.



Spoiler: drivel


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

Wasn't he taking the piss out of racists?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

'I helped trend the mascots' you mean you posted something on Twitter


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

Enact the labour?


----------



## captainmission (Apr 3, 2014)

I supose this is just hating on successful WoC's, but...



> I had to cancel a whole week of gigs, and I haven’t been able to leave where I’m staying in six days due to the amount of threats I am getting. [I lost] $4,000 that I would have made in my speaking gigs...



she earns $4k a week? When did being a revolutionary become so profitable? #wearethe5%


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

But she's not doing anything, writing on Twitter isn't being a revolutionary especially not when you are getting paid for it ffs


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But she's not doing anything, writing on Twitter isn't being a revolutionary especially not when you are getting paid for it ffs


shh!


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

Good critique of Park by a fellow WoC feminist. http://joslynstevens.com/2014/03/30/cancelcolbert-politics-offended/#.Uz2ps1evPoZ


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I take it everyone's _enacted the labour_ of watching her car crash interview with Josh Zepp - the sheer incoherence that nigel mentioned is on full show.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: drivel




Don't you mean trigger warning: drivel


----------



## captainmission (Apr 3, 2014)

She's decolonalising white supremacist territory and creating non-linear queer timelines with hashtags or some such. if that's not radical i don't know what it is.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

Let’s not overlook her friendship with Michelle Malkin, a race-baiting liberal-hating, Asian token for the Republican party, who non apologetically wrote about supporting internment of the Japanese people which she says had nothing to with racism.

Fucking hell that woman is poison.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

Fucking hell. Malkin is asinine.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Fucking hell. Malkin is asinine.



Seriously? She's on the far right of the republican party ffs.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

I mean that - she's openly racist and islamophobic and was part of that anti ground zero mosque thing iirc.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)




----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

*Malkin and the Sinister Crescent!*
In 2005, Malkin took a pre-eminent role in an astoundingly dumb controversy regarding a proposed memorial for Flight 93. Dubbed "Crescent of Embrace," it consisted primarily of a stand of trees partially surrounding the crash site. The design was selected by a panel composed of design experts and victims' family members, and it was announced on September 7.[4]

Shortly after the announcement, a group of Internet obsessives - Malkin among them - came to the conclusion that the Memorial was actually a covert memorial to the terrorists.[5] Why? Because it's a big red crescent, a_historic_ symbol of Islam![6] With such clear facts, all Malkin had to overcome were the families, all of whom were sure the claims were utter bunk.[7] Of course, Malkin is not one to let something as petty as the stated desires of the grieving get in her way.

The dreaded crescent was not a particularly long-term campaign, for Malkin or anyone else. Today, the only ones who want to talk about it are the mentally unstable sons of renowned political theorists.[8]


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

WTF


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

'Hysterical'


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

Isn't this #notrealsolidarity lol


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

I guess solidarity is for those who agree with her, even if the source of agreement is Michelle Malkin of all people!


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 3, 2014)

Yep.


----------



## captainmission (Apr 3, 2014)

> *Laurie Penny* ‏@PennyRed  1h
> So-called leftists and progressives can be the most vicious in their attacks on women who they believe are too uppity, too 'careerist'.
> 
> Expand




I mean what _is _the lefts problem with people that earn $100,000 a year?


----------



## captainmission (Apr 3, 2014)

I have been told this piece is 'beautiful' and 'important'.

Apparently white men having beards is a form of cultural appropration. Although that said it touches on some decent points about racial sterotypes and machismo among the gay community. 

Again the authour is from a well to do background educated at an elite university. Giving workshops for fellow idle children of the rich at elite universities. 

His tedx talk iis revealing in who is audience is and what he thinks the revolutionary potential might be


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 3, 2014)

captainmission said:


> I have been told this piece is 'beautiful' and 'important'.
> 
> Apparently white men having beards is a form of cultural appropration. Although that said it touches on some decent points about racial sterotypes and machismo among the gay community.
> 
> ...




I have no idea what he's on about but it sounds like a kind of hybrid of the worst elements of hippyism and post-modernist bollocks.


----------



## Ole (Apr 3, 2014)

captainmission said:


> I supose this is just hating on successful WoC's, but...
> 
> 
> 
> she earns $4k a week? When did being a revolutionary become so profitable? #wearethe5%


Who is saying that?


----------



## captainmission (Apr 3, 2014)

Ole said:


> Who is saying that?



suey parks


----------



## Ole (Apr 3, 2014)

captainmission said:


> I supose this is just hating on successful WoC's, but...
> 
> 
> 
> she earns $4k a week? When did being a revolutionary become so profitable? #wearethe5%





captainmission said:


> I mean what _is _the lefts problem with people that earn $100,000 a year?



How do these twats keep getting away with calling themselves revolutionaries?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 3, 2014)

Ole said:


> How do these twats keep getting away with calling themselves revolutionaries?



Look on the bright side, all this means is that with one decent cull of the rich all this identity politics twittersectionality dies off.


----------



## Ole (Apr 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Look on the bright side, all this means is that with one decent cull of the rich all this identity politics twittersectionality dies off.


They rarely wind me up any more, but it's a bit worrying how they're saying this stuff so openly and yet they are unchallenged by all these people who are following them on Twitter and able to read what they're saying.

Surely anyone with a left-wing bone in their body would see something like that and think there's something not right here...


----------



## J Ed (Apr 3, 2014)

They don't have any left-wing bones in their body. They are middle-class (at best) liberal class warriors.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 4, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Oh God.




What are you whining for?

You should be proud that so many middle-class members of the commentariat are going to be getting together in one place! It makes them easier to assassinate avoid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But she's not doing anything, writing on Twitter isn't being a revolutionary especially not when you are getting paid for it ffs




To themselves, as well as to their peers, "writing on twitter" is indeed a revolutionary act.
That some of their tweets are seen by fewer people than read _The Catholic Herald_ is immaterial to their (inflated) sense of revolutionary self-worth.
It's just a shame that so few of them ever bother to engage with a spot of revolutionary self-criticism.


----------



## rekil (Apr 4, 2014)

trigger warning!!!

Cis scum marxplaining old white devil David Harvey being interview on Novara atm

http://radioplayer.resonancefm.com/console/


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's just a shame that so few of them ever bother to engage with a spot of revolutionary self-criticism.


There would have been no need for the cultural revolution if people just admitted they "were on all the painkillers in the world"


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 4, 2014)

Oh man.



> Yesterday, I was contacted separately by two distressed friends, both writers, both women. One is famous, successful, hard as diamond under glass and trying gamely to brush off fantasies of personal and specific violence being sent to her by people nominally on the left. She is discovering that as a woman writing and speaking about serious politics in public, it’s not enough just to be _good_ – you also have to deal with the overheads of abuse, bullying, dismissal and disrespect, all while smiling and being nice and pretending as hard as you can that it doesn’t get to you.
> 
> My other friend is just starting out, is very young and very talented. She was in tears, wondering if she should just kick it in altogether because of all the people writing in complaining that she’s “all me, me, me” and a “careerist”. “Careerist” is usually used an insult against women and people of colour – the type of people in media who are not supposed to have careers. If you’re Ezra Klein, careerism is fine – you’re expected to be proud of your work, to promote your brand of journalism, to behave as a professional would. “We have to work on your sense of entitlement,” I told my young friend. “It needs to be bigger.”



No doubt in reference to those earlier tweets. Whilst Penny and I'm sure Crabapple get some horrific, disgusting and truly repulsive abuse, lets not pretend that the abuse from those on the left does might also fall under legitimate critique.



> My qualification to talk about all this is that I’ve spent five years working, largely as a freelancer, sometimes within mainstream publications like this one and sometimes outside them, to change how journalism and commentary was done. I’ve been doing this along with hundreds of women, people of colour, trans people and allies who saw a media world that was closed to them and only spoke to them to tell them lies and thought, fuck that, we have the technology to do better. So we did. Except that when we did, we weren’t called ‘the future of media’. If we got hired by establishment outfits it was intitially as mascots, performing seals who weren’t trusted to cover “real journalism”. I’m thinking of the newspaper that hired me on a promise that it would let me do serious long-form reporting and then pressured me to cover only “fluffy” women’s issues, sending me to cover precisely one story in nine months: the Women’s Beach Volleyball at the Olympics.
> 
> Modelview. Racialicious. Colourlines. Writers Of Colour. The Vagenda. Meta. Novara. Trans Media Watch. Those are just the first few names I’ve plucked out of the air in terms of exciting new outfits that, whatever you feel about their content, are real journalism and criticism and commentary, and are undeniably startups, changing the way media is done.



Vagenda?! Are you shitting me? They are published in the New Statesman and Guardian. Hilarious they are considered 'real' journalism, but I digress.

Yes, there needs to be better diversity in the media but I hardly think Penny is the best person to make the argument. Why not let one of the above groups write the article instead? No matter what you think, you are mainstream, Laurie.

http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2014/04/where-are-real-outsiders-new-media


----------



## J Ed (Apr 4, 2014)

http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2014/04/where-are-real-outsiders-new-media



> “We have to work on your sense of entitlement,” I told my young friend. “It needs to be bigger.”



This is why private schools all need to be physically demolished and banned.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 4, 2014)

Dull, dull, dull, irrelevant, dull. And I speak as a female blogger.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 4, 2014)

Careerist journalist positions herself as radical. What a load of bullshit posturing. Considering she's contributing editor to the News Statesman and friends with Helen Lewis, she's in an ideal position to lobby for such writers. She can actually affect change in one institution or another where she commands authority.

Penny might already, but this article smacks of trying to earn good ally points, instead of addressing her own privilege as a journalist.

Once again inserting herself into the story.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Careerist journalist positions herself as radical. What a load of bullshit posturing. Considering she's contributing editor to the News Statesman and friends with Helen Lewis, she's in an ideal position to lobby for such writers. She can actually affect change in one institution or another where she commands authority.
> 
> Penny might already, but this article smacks of trying to earn good ally points, instead of addressing her own privilege as a journalist.
> 
> Once again inserting herself into the story.


I thought the second 'friend' sounded a lot like P herself


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Dull, dull, dull, irrelevant, dull. And I speak as a female blogger.



You've got a blog?!? I've been reading your comments here for the past year and it comes as news to me. You need to take a few tips off LP, mate, post links here to your every utterance and really get out there and raise your profile, build your market share, etc. All in the interest of spreading the message, of course, not in any way to serve your ego or anything.

Just as long as you don't get careerist about it


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I thought the second 'friend' sounded a lot like P herself



How dare you  As if LP would ever use herself and her experiences to make a point


----------



## Belushi (Apr 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> You've got a blog?!? I've been reading your comments here for the past year and it comes as news to me. You need to take a few tips off LP, mate, post links here to your every utterance and really get out there and raise your profile, build your market share, etc. All in the interest of spreading the message, of course, not in any way to serve your ego or anything.
> 
> Just as long as you don't get careerist about it



This is good advice. Also start calling people out more, they  may be friends but all's fair in love and blogging.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> You've got a blog?!? I've been reading your comments here for the past year and it comes as news to me. You need to take a few tips off LP, mate, post links here to your every utterance and really get out there and raise your profile, build your market share, etc. All in the interest of spreading the message, of course, not in any way to serve your ego or anything.
> 
> Just as long as you don't get careerist about it


You forgot about 'building a personal brand'


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You forgot about 'building a personal brand'



How could I forget that one?  at self.

Clearly, LP is the master* at this, and we should all studies her collected works and learn from them.

*I fully expect to get called out for using this word. There is, unfortunately, no gender-neutral equivalent which conveys the meaning I'm seeking. *shakes fist at patriarchal language conventions*


----------



## rekil (Apr 4, 2014)

> sending me to cover precisely one story in nine months


A dishonest slagging of the Indy here I suspect. It's a journalist's job to go out and come up with stories not sit around waiting for the editor to drop them into her lap. And has she done any 'serious long form reporting' since then for the NS?


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You forgot about 'building a personal brand'



Can anybody explain to me how it's possible to claim to be a radical leftie journo while adopting corporate practices like building a personal brand?

Penny Dreadful's a radical leftie or climbing the greasy pole as a professional hack while doing the Rebel Sell. It isn't possible to be both.


----------



## captainmission (Apr 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> Clearly, LP is the master* at this, and we should all studies her collected works and learn from them.
> 
> *I fully expect to get called out for using this word. There is, unfortunately, no gender-neutral equivalent which conveys the meaning I'm seeking. *shakes fist at patriarchal language conventions*



How about artisan self promoting hack?


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Can anybody explain to me how it's possible to claim to be a radical leftie journo while adopting corporate practices like building a personal brand?


Because my pal, real communism has never being realised

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their personal brand"


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2014)

captainmission said:


> How about artisan self promoting hack?



It doesn't quite convey the meaning I was going for, but I like your use of "artisan" to distinguish LP from more run of the mill self promoting hacks.

It doesn't actually mean anything, of course, but it adds a certain something which appears to raise it above the mundane, as long as you don't look too closely or think about how superficial it really is


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> A dishonest slagging of the Indy here I suspect. It's a journalist's job to go out and come up with stories not sit around waiting for the editor to drop them into her lap. And has she done any 'serious long form reporting' since then for the NS?



It is a dishonest slagging of the Independent, yes. And I'd have thought, as an experienced freelancer (I happen to be one. by the way) that she'd be well used to the idea of coming up with her own ideas, working them into pitches and suchlike and then running them by an editor for their approval or decline as that's what freelancers do. If you're freelance then you'll likely spend as much time looking for ideas and pitching them to people as you will writing. It's part of the job to find and develop your own ideas into something editors might be interested in. 

And I don't recall Penny Dreadful managing much in the way of 'serious long form reporting' in any capacity, if I'm honest.


----------



## rekil (Apr 4, 2014)

On the other hand, slagging off her former employer and not giving a hoot about how unprofessional or unwise it is _proves_ that she's a proper revolutionary autonomist communist.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 4, 2014)

I'll just leave this here.



> *Ida Minerva Tarbell* (November 5, 1857 – January 6, 1944) was an American teacher, author and journalist. She was one of the leading "muckrakers" of the progressive era. She wrote many notable magazine series and biographies. She is best known for her 1904 book _The History of the Standard Oil Company_, which was listed as No. 5 in a 1999 list by New York University of the top 100 works of 20th-century American journalism.[1] She depicted John D. Rockefeller as crabbed, miserly, money-grabbing, and viciously effective at monopolizing the oil trade.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> On the other hand, slagging off her former employer and not giving a hoot about how unprofessional or unwise it is _proves_ that she's a proper revolutionary autonomist communist.



I'm also curious as to why they kept her around for so long if they only sent her out to cover one story. Newspapers don't usually employ people for nine months with the intention of seldom using them at all unless their competence is doubtful or they're a nightmare to work with.


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I'll just leave this here.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell



That's all very well, but how many twitter followers did she have?


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 4, 2014)

Penny was writing at least 1 or 2 articles a month for the Indy. It looks like she had free range on the topic matter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/biography/penny?pageNumber=1

She's incredibly bitter about one article she had to write. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...u-really-need-to-ask-why-im-here-7986148.html


----------



## Ole (Apr 4, 2014)

A technical question - what would happen if I went steaming in at these cunts on their Twitters when they reveal themselves as undercover class warriors for the 'successful' - I mean tactfully though, no naughty language or anything. Would they just be able to censor me anyway?

Are any of you lot already doing it?

I'm not having them pissing on the left like this without any aggravation.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2014)

you'll be blocked swiftly


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Penny was writing at least 1 or 2 articles a month for the Indy. It looks like she had free range on the topic matter.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/biography/penny?pageNumber=1
> 
> She's incredibly bitter about one article she had to write. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...u-really-need-to-ask-why-im-here-7986148.html



Hardly covering one story in nine months, is it?


----------



## Ole (Apr 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you'll be blocked swiftly


Right.  Must be why every comment they have on their Twitters are all arse licking?


----------



## weepiper (Apr 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> You've got a blog?!? I've been reading your comments here or the past year and it comes as news to me. You need to take a few tips off LP, mate, post links here to your every utterance and really get out there and raise your profile, build your market share, etc. All in the interest of spreading the message, of course, n
> ot in any way to serve your ego or anything.
> 
> Just as long as you don't get careerist about it


http://furcoatnaenicks.wordpress.com/


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 4, 2014)

oh is that you!


----------



## Greebo (Apr 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> <snip> master* at this, and we should all studies her collected works and learn from them.
> 
> *I fully expect to get called out for using this word. There is, unfortunately, no gender-neutral equivalent which conveys the meaning I'm seeking. *shakes fist at patriarchal language conventions*


Adept?


----------



## weepiper (Apr 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> oh is that you!


 yes, why?


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Adept?



Good suggestion. I think of that mainly as an adjective, but as you say, it's a noun too. I think of it mostly as a practitioner of magic (is that right?) but maybe it doesn't necessarily have that connotation.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 4, 2014)

weepiper said:


> yes, why?


just didn't realise, I quite like your tweets but never read the blog properly


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2014)

adept as a descriptor generally is synonymous with skilled, handy, craftsperson

in can and has been used to describe practitioners of ritual magic also.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> <snip> can and has been used to describe practitioners of ritual magic also.


All the more reason to reclaim its other more mundane meaning, which should be just as common, in my arrogant opinion.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2014)

Greebo said:


> All the more reason to reclaim it's other more mundane meaning, which should be just as common, in my arrogant opinion.




I've encountered it in the mundane sense loads, just as much in the 'magicker' meaning. It goes well with 'in the art of'

'he was adept in the arts of deception' and so forth


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2014)

Ole said:


> Right.  Must be why every comment they have on their Twitters are all arse licking?



If you don't add your hand to their collective online circle jerk then you're not a proper member of the Commentariat.


----------



## Ole (Apr 4, 2014)

Just for me to be clear, when you get blocked, what does that mean? The blocker can't see any of your messages or *no-one* can see any of your messages?

I guess there's no way of getting your message seen on someone's Twitter account without their explicit consent?

No I don't really use Twitter before anyone asks.


----------



## rekil (Apr 4, 2014)

Ole said:


> Just for me to be clear, when you get blocked, what does that mean? The blocker can't see any of your messages or *no-one* can see any of your messages?
> 
> I guess there's no way of getting your message seen on someone's Twitter account without their explicit consent?
> 
> No I don't really use Twitter before anyone asks.


Just the blocker can't see your vile messages of hate.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> Just the blocker can't see your vile messages of hate.




Or the revolutionary discipline of PD


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2014)

Ouch.

http://madammiaow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/laurie-penny-defriends-woman-of-colour.html


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Ouch.
> 
> http://madammiaow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/laurie-penny-defriends-woman-of-colour.html



A genuine WTF moment when Charles Shaar Murray appears out of nowhere to tag in, deliver a quick dropkick, and tag out again.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> A genuine WTF moment when Charles Shaar Murray appears out of nowhere to tag in, deliver a quick dropkick, and tag out again.



I know, I proper laughed out loud at that. what's next Bob Harris and Pete Frame?


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 4, 2014)

E.Jane.cochrane?
When I first clicked on this all of Laurier posts were marked e.jane cochrane.
 When I rechecked to lol at Owen mansplaining it had changed to LP.
Is that a intersectional joke?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 4, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> E.Jane.cochrane?



It's the name LP uses on facebook


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> E.Jane.cochrane?
> When I first clicked on this all of Laurier posts were marked e.jane cochrane.
> When I rechecked to lol at Owen mansplaining it had changed to LP.
> Is that a intersectional joke?


I'd guess that she changes her FB account name on a regular basis to minimise the abuse she attracts from people. I don't mean disagreements or stuff like that, I mean the people who post threats about wanting to hit her or rape her or worse.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2014)

She uses E.Jane.cochrane? What arrogance.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'd guess that she changes her FB account name on a regular basis to minimise the abuse she attracts from people. <snip>


Sensible, but a shame she has to do it.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'd guess that she changes her FB account name on a regular basis to minimise the abuse she attracts from people. I don't mean disagreements or stuff like that, I mean the people who post threats about wanting to hit her or rape her or worse.



no she's always used that name (or at least has for ages) Anna Chen changed it on her blog


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> no she's always used that name (or at least has for ages) Anna Chen changed it on her blog


Like I say, it was a guess. If she doesn't change it regularly, I'm surprised.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She uses E.Jane.cochrane? What arrogance.



no different to malatesta32 or kropotkin or Bakunin


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> no different to malatesta32 or kropotkin or Bakunin


If they went around saying that the powers that be were crushing the modern day kropotkins and pointing towards themselves maybe!


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 4, 2014)

Shit's kicking off


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 4, 2014)

Also, it can't be that private of a Facebook name if it has over 300 followers.


----------



## rekil (Apr 4, 2014)

How many facebook 'friends' has the PD account got? We should strive to have only 1 - A.Worker


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> How many facebook 'friends' has the PD account got? We should strive to have only 1 - A.Worker



Nearly 1,500 friends. Private indeed.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2014)

The thing is, if madam miaow does continue to contact LP after she's been asked not to several times, that's heading into harassment/stalker territory no matter how deserving the cause or righteous the argument.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> How many facebook 'friends' has the PD account got? We should strive to have only 1 - A.Worker


I did a rough tally and would say that there were around 1,200 Friends. Including Alex Callinicos!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The thing is, if madam miaow does continue to contact LP after she's been asked not to several times, that's heading into harassment/stalker territory no matter how deserving the cause or righteous the argument.



A tangent, but that reminds me of this:

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/journ...ons-fraudster-served-police-harassment-notice


----------



## rekil (Apr 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I did a rough tally and would say that there were around 1,200 Friends. Including Alex Callinicos!




(How do we monetize this depth of market penetration )


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 5, 2014)

Not really part of the "Commentariat" but this piece of academic wankery was too funny not to share:

*What Is Cupcake Fascism?*
by Tom Whyman

*The Radical Possibility and Cake*

The constellation of cultural tropes that most paradigmatically manifest in the form of the cupcake are associated in particular with _infantilization_.

If we see the paradigmatic mechanisms of social oppression operative today in the form of a cupcake, then the clue to the overthrowing of these mechanisms exists also in cake, albeit of an entirely different kind. It is precisely in the truly cake-like, the spongy and the moist and the excessive and the unhealthy. Against the austerity of the cupcake-form, we need to recapture, in our social reality, a sort of joy: the joy of being open to genuinely alternative possibilities.

http://www.full-stop.net/2014/04/03/blog/tom-whyman/what-is-cupcake-fascism/


----------



## treelover (Apr 5, 2014)

Just been reading that the Prof is related (not sure how close) to the late Count Anton Arco-Valley, the assassin who killed Kurt Eisner.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Oh man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm, that's an "interesting spin on "careerist" that Ms. Penny is making.
Especially given that "careerist" has long been an insult deployed against *anyone* who is overtly career-oriented, regardless of gender.  Is she, once again, doing a Humpty-Dumpty with the meaning of words? Sure looks like it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You forgot about 'building a personal brand'



Just as long as weeps also remembers to "monetise her hotness".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 5, 2014)

captainmission said:


> How about artisan self promoting hack?



From there it's only a short step to being a self-actualising media node.


----------



## cesare (Apr 5, 2014)

I've a vague memory of Madam Miaow from the SWP meltdown thread, or am I misremembering?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2014)

Laurie Penny thread - and previous she had made serious allegations about the way she was treated by ex-swp bigwigs in RESPECT.


----------



## cesare (Apr 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Laurie Penny thread - and previous she had made serious allegations about the way she was treated by ex-swp bigwigs in RESPECT.


Didn't she also blog about her (bad) experiences of the SWP when the contents of the SWP conference were publicised?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> Didn't she also blog about her (bad) experiences of the SWP when the contents of the SWP conference were publicised?


Quite possibly - they were around for a long time before that too.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> Didn't she also blog about her (bad) experiences of the SWP when the contents of the SWP conference were publicised?


You'll probably find more stuff searching on ‘Anna Chen’ than ‘Madam Miaow’.


----------



## cesare (Apr 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Quite possibly - they were around for a long time before that too.


I think I've found it, but the blog page looks very different now, she must have redesigned it: http://madammiaow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/swp-sex-implosion-its-dehumanisation-in.html

Cheers butchers. I don't really keep track of the individual members of the commentariat but this one rang a bell. Just trying to put her in context. Thanks.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Laurie Penny thread - and previous she had made serious allegations about the way she was treated by ex-swp bigwigs in RESPECT.


It was the Socialist Alliance not RESPECT she was the SA press officer until John Rees assaulted her with a ballon and called all Chinese petit bourgeois


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 5, 2014)

treelover said:


> Just been reading that the Prof is related (not sure how close) to the late Count Anton Arco-Valley, the assassin who killed Kurt Eisner.


Anton Graf von Arco auf Valley to give him his proper surname (he has a ton of first names - proper aristo  )


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2014)

According to wiki quoting a (paywalled) Times article, Laurie's bestest teacher pal and legend "Anthony Seldon is tipped as a contender to replace Tony Little as Head Master of Eton College in September 2015"


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 5, 2014)

http://disillusionedmarxist.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/twittersectionalists-1/


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Anton Graf von Arco auf Valley to give him his proper surname (he has a ton of first names - proper aristo  )



Aristo's usually need lots of names, it reflects their many centuries of dedicated inbreeding.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> According to wiki quoting a (paywalled) Times article, Laurie's bestest teacher pal and legend "Anthony Seldon is tipped as a contender to replace Tony Little as Head Master of Eton College in September 2015"


QUALITY ALWAYS RISES TO THE TOP


----------



## Greebo (Apr 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> QUALITY ALWAYS RISES TO THE TOP


So does scum...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 5, 2014)

http://tressiemc.com/2014/03/05/the-trigger-warned-syllabus/ 

Excellent piece on trigger warnings in academic syllabuses...


----------



## Greebo (Apr 5, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> <snip> trigger warnings in academic syllabuses...


That could make teaching literature, the classics, Old English, Norse, sociology, economics, politics, peace studies, or comparative religion, challenging to say the least.


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://disillusionedmarxist.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/twittersectionalists-1/


The first comment is


----------



## toggle (Apr 5, 2014)

Greebo said:


> That could make teaching literature, the classics, Old English, Norse, sociology, economics, politics, peace studies, or comparative religion, challenging to say the least.



I could put a trigger warning of 'contains nauseating levels of racism and bigotry' on just about everything I've read this year.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 5, 2014)

Greebo said:


> So does scum...


and turds.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm just going to put a sign saying 'Trigger Warning!' on the inside of my front door.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 5, 2014)

Greebo said:


> That could make teaching literature, the classics, Old English, Norse, sociology, economics, politics, peace studies, or comparative religion, challenging to say the least.



Not to mention military history or criminology.


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2014)

> One example given is Chinua Achebe’s “Things Fall Apart” for its colonialism trigger.



Alcoholism trigger as well. Lots of palm wine drinking in there. Careful people.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

I never put trigger warnings on anything I write and I write about some grim topics. Maybe below the suey park vide I should put 'trigger warning: drivel'


----------



## fogbat (Apr 6, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I'm just going to put a sign saying 'Trigger Warning!' on the inside of my front door.


I'm going to put one on my gun.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

Dunno if this has been posted: 

http://www.occupy.com/article/anarc...ds-birgitta-jónsdóttir-talks-big-e-revolution


----------



## cesare (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://disillusionedmarxist.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/twittersectionalists-1/


Why is now a bigger threat to our living standards worse than, for example, WWII?

Also re HR depts - the only reason they devise and police anti discrimination policies is for profit protection. If classism became unlawful they'd be just as assiduous in including that too.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

cesare said:


> Why is now a bigger threat to our living standards worse than, for example, WWII?
> 
> Also re HR depts - the only reason they devise and police anti discrimination policies is for profit protection. If classism became unlawful they'd be just as assiduous in including that too.



That was kind of my point tbh - and one place where I worked did include classism'!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

cesare said:


> Why is now a bigger threat to our living standards worse than, for example, WWII?
> 
> Also re HR depts - the only reason they devise and police anti discrimination policies is for profit protection. If classism became unlawful they'd be just as assiduous in including that too.



Yeah I meant in terms of protection of workers rights that are now under threat and were won during the first part of this century - I could have made that clearer tbh


----------



## cesare (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That was kind of my point tbh - and one place where I worked did include classism'!


I don't see why you think HR departments would adopt twittersectionalism. And I don't see why you think our living standards are under the worst attack in a century.

Edit: ok, I see we cross posted but I still don't see why it's worse now than a century ago in terms of workers rights either.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

cesare said:


> I don't see why you think HR departments would adopt twittersectionalism. And I don't see why you think our living standards are under the worst attack in a century.
> 
> Edit: ok, I see we cross posted but I still don't see why it's worse now than a century ago in terms of workers rights either.



Not twittersectionalism but the whole definition of classism etc as something that doesn't actually threaten what they are doing 

And there are already moves to include elements of it in university syllabuses etc - and SpineyNorman will know more about some of the ways its already being used


----------



## cesare (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Not twittersectionalism but the whole definition of classism etc as something that doesn't actually threaten what they are doing
> 
> And there are already moves to include elements of it in university syllabuses etc - and SpineyNorman will know more about some of the ways its already being used


I'd be interested to see what definition of classism is being incorporated into diversity policies.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

cesare said:


> I don't see why you think HR departments would adopt twittersectionalism. And I don't see why you think our living standards are under the worst attack in a century.
> 
> Edit: ok, I see we cross posted but I still don't see why it's worse now than a century ago in terms of workers rights either.



It's not worse. I'm going to have to take another look at that bit tbh - I meant in terms of inequality, and also in terms of how gains won last century are being eroded, increasing numbers of people not being able to feed themselves etc. But yes you're right.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

cesare said:


> I'd be interested to see what definition of classism is being incorporated into diversity policies.



I'll PM you


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

I've changed it now anyway. Cheers for pointing that out - the 'worst attacks for a century' is something I heard a lot in the SP though.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 6, 2014)

What's the argument against the worst attacks for a century? Obviously the attacks on the General Strike in 1926 were a lot worse than what is going on now, but at least it was more of a fight rather than a one sided pummelling.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> QUALITY ALWAYS RISES TO THE TOP



So does hot air.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 6, 2014)

So wait, Suey Park did not create the #notyourasiansidekick hashtag by herself? Despite all the credit she gets in the media as being the creator. Shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

http://fascinasiansblog.com/post/81601449659/from-here-to-there-my-experience-in-hashtag-land


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 6, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Not to mention military history or criminology.



Let's not forget Irish studies, while we're at it:



Spoiler: trigger warning RUM BLOOD BRUTAL ATTACK ON THE POLICE


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 6, 2014)

Holy shit. She doesn't consider herself truly mainstream.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That was kind of my point tbh - and one place where I worked did include classism'!



I think I have mentioned it before I have members of family who are managers in the civil service, a number of years ago I was researching equal opportunities and I asked this relative what issues were covered in her E/O brief and she reeled them off, race, gender, etc, I asked "what about class?" she replied, "what about class? there are no problems with class in the civil service"


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

etc?


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

ffs, stop criticising posts just for the sake of it, its debilitating and puts others off posting, my post above has clarity and makes very valid points about the omission of class in the equal opportunities sphere/racket


----------



## fishfinger (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> ffs, stop criticising posts just for the sake of it, its debilitating and puts others off posting, my post above has clarity and makes very valid points about the omission of class in the equal opportunities sphere/racket


I thought he was referring to the post above yours.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> I think I have mentioned it before I have members of family who are managers in the civil service, a number of years ago I was researching equal opportunities and I asked this relative what issues were covered in her E/O brief and she reeled them off, race, gender, etc, I asked "what about class?" she replied, "what about class? there are no problems with class in the civil service"


Your made up story lacks clarity - it's like a fucking idiots blackboard with all you fav terms on _MSM, left, borders_. _You _are why people don't feel connected to potential answers - knobs who just say _left unity_ to them. Did you enjoy your latest holiday abroad btw?


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

"Did you enjoy your latest holiday abroad btw?"

what on earth are you on about?

and its not made up, grow up.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> "Did you enjoy your latest holiday abroad btw?"
> 
> what on earth are you on about?
> 
> and its not made up, grow up.


I guess it was _work _then. Putting on the poor mouth to tick others off all the time. What the fuck is wrong with you? All you do is moan that people that have reported on your hobby horses haven't reported on your hobby horses (horses that you never deign to ride btw) or that the left is now on the verge of the biggest post-war breakthrough/shit not worth bothering with. You'd put me off having a pint in the same pub as you never mind joining the same party.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

And answer some questions you arrogant shit.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

drunk?


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

btw, talking about people's private lives is against the FAQ.

and that's my last retort, I never even used to reply to such insults for many years, you are just scaring people off these boards with your bullying bluster.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> drunk?


Yeah, people fed up of you are all drunk. Do you do this in real lie meetings?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> btw, talking about people's private lives is against the FAQ.
> 
> and that's my last retort, I never even used to reply to such insults for many years, you are just scaring people off these boards with your bullying bluster.


Jesus christ, you accuse people of being drunk because they disagree with you, you make stuff up, you moan for a decade and lie and dissemble, you make - literally - people who agree with you on wider issues your enemy on here and you dare ask where they're going wrong? You are a joke.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> btw, talking about people's private lives is against the FAQ.
> 
> and that's my last retort, I never even used to reply to such insults for many years, you are just scaring people off these boards with your bullying bluster.


The FAQs clearly state that 'posting personal information' is against the rules. In the time I have been here, that has broadly been taken to mean anything that the poster themself hasn't posted about.

However, whether or not asking you about a 'holiday' breaches this part of the FAQ is irrelevant considering you very recently tried to out a Space Hijacker and member of urban on the boards. 

He does have a point about you never answering any direct questions that are put to you. You never EVER do and it's very annoying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> btw, talking about people's private lives is against the FAQ.
> 
> and that's my last retort, I never even used to reply to such insults for many years, you are just scaring people off these boards with your bullying bluster.


you're boring them off. if butchersapron scared people off - and i don't believe he does - it would be shitfer twats the place is better off without. and u75 would be a better place without you.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

How many regular posters are there on P/P? lots less since your style of following round people you disagree with became dominant, you and BA are bullies, end of.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

"However, whether or not asking you about a 'holiday' breaches this part of the FAQ is irrelevant considering you very recently tried to out a Space Hijacker and member of urban on the boards."

That's not correct, I never mentioned any individual.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> "However, whether or not asking you about a 'holiday' breaches this part of the FAQ is irrelevant considering you very recently tried to out a Space Hijacker and member of urban on the boards."
> 
> That's not correct, I never mentioned any individual.


you lying cunt. you said above 'this is my last retort' but here you are pissing on again. you did mention one person - and one person is traditionally 'an individual'.

fuck off and make something of your life which doesn't involve posting a litany of lies here.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

You pick on lots of people, taffboy, articulate, awesome, you are bullies, and there are plenty of urbanites who would post on here if you and BA refrained from doing so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> You pick on lots of people, taffboy, articulate, awesome, you are bullies, and there are plenty of urbanites who would post on here if you and BA refrained from doing so.


so you should be allowed to lie and lie and lie and not be pulled up about it. as it happens i don't pick on any people, i just engage rather more forcefully with some people than others.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you're boring them off. if butchersapron scared people off - and i don't believe he does - it would be shitfer twats the place is better off without. and u75 would be a better place without you.



I think you find the info I have posted consistently on benefits issues, etc, have helped more posters than your puerile offerings.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so you should be allowed to lie and lie and lie and not be pulled up about it. as it happens i don't pick on any people, i just engage rather more forcefully with some people than others.




No, there is robust argument and there is bullying and hectoring, you and some others fall into the latter camp

oh, and Equation girl just Pm Spiney or some others to find out why my postings are so minimal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> I think you find the info I have posted consistently on benefits issues, etc, have helped more posters than your puerile offerings.


let's assume it's true that you've helped a lot of people with your offerings on benefits issues. why, then, do you undermine that good work by posting barking nonsense and lies elsewhere on the boards?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> No, there is robust argument and there is bullying and hectoring, you and some others fall into the latter camp


it is interesting that you only complain of this treatment when you're pulled up for being a liar and posting stuff about an alleged poster here.


----------



## dendrite (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And answer some questions you arrogant shit.



Longtime lurker here. Joining to corroborate treelover. I've personally been put off posting and joining these forums, by your emotionally incontinent aggression.

Let's not pretend it isn't happening. You even had to preemptively give an assurance that "I won't attack you" in the OP of a thread about voting Labour in 2015.

You demand responses (and how!) But people _should _ignore you. For their own good. Because you relate to them as fodder for your thirsty, needy abusiveness.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

We missed a winner here. Borders _are _good.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 6, 2014)

MANY PMS OF SUPPORT


----------



## chilango (Apr 6, 2014)

I, for one, prefer quality over quantity in terms of posters on P&P.  I like the fact that bullshit and inanity is robustly countered here. Sure, it's a shame that this may put some potentially valuable posters off, but it's a price worth paying to defend our little corner of the internet from the vacuous, the ignorant and the empty posturing so prevalent elsewhere.

It's rough, but I wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

dendrite said:


> Longtime lurker here. Joining to corroborate treelover. I've personally been put off posting and joining these forums, by your emotionally incontinent aggression.
> 
> Let's not pretend it isn't happening. You even had to preemptively give an assurance that "I won't attack you" in the OP of a thread about voting Labour in 2015.
> 
> You demand responses (and how!) But people _should _ignore you. For their own good. Because you relate to them as fodder for your thirsty, needy abusiveness.


What, would it be, that you bring?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What, would it be, that you bring?


s/he's bringing a brand of cod psychology i thought we'd seen the last of here.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> MANY PMS OF SUPPORT




Why dismiss him?


you don't do what BA and PM do on here, you post very informative and astute political info and insight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> Why dismiss him?
> 
> 
> you don't do what BA and PM do on here, you post very informative and astute political info and insight.


why don't you try to emulate DaveCinzano ?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> Why dismiss him?


Him?


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

chilango said:


> I, for one, prefer quality over quantity in terms of posters on P&P.  I like the fact that bullshit and inanity is robustly countered here. Sure, it's a shame that this may put some potentially valuable posters off, but it's a price worth paying to defend our little corner of the internet from the vacuous, the ignorant and the empty posturing so prevalent elsewhere.
> 
> It's rough, but I wouldn't have it any other way.



others differ, I come on here primarily for information and insight and to post info to an informed entity, including the many many lurkers and people who just read posts on P/p or the number who are too intimidated to do so, not arguing and often downright nastiness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> others differ, I come on here primarily for information and insight and to post info to an informed entity, including the many many lurkers and people who just read post on P/p, not arguing and often downright nastiness


what, the sort of info about an alleged poster's identity and workplace and political background not to mention a picture of them? very kind of you i'm sure


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> Why dismiss him?
> 
> 
> you don't do what BA and PM do on here, you post very informative and astute political info and insight.


I post very informative and astute political info and insight. Every fucking day. You don't


----------



## chilango (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> others differ



I'm sure they do.

Which is fine.

Just sharing my personal view.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

No, I didn't, no names were used, the individuals background was freely available on the biog on the site,

btw, I seem to recall it was me who was 'outed' many years ago on here.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> No, I didn't, no names were used, the individuals background was freely available on the biog on the site,
> 
> btw, I seem to recall it was me who was 'outed' many years ago on here.


Why do you 'seem' to recall - , what do you recall - say exactly what you recall.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> I think you find the info I have posted consistently on benefits issues, etc, have helped more posters than your puerile offerings.


You have consistently posted posturing on threads specifically not for discussion, despite being asked repeatedly not to do so.

You also posted a photo of someone and mentioned their RL activities and other affiliations. If that's not talking about an individual I don't know what is. Please stop acting all outraged. You've been caught out in a lie. Have the grace to hold up your hands and take responsibility for your actions.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

The whole board is full of posturing on 'inappropriate' threads, on the remembrance one for instance


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Why do you 'seem' to recall - , what do you recall - say exactly what you recall.



No, because the person who put my details on here is no longer with us, died three years ago


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> No, I didn't, no names were used, the individuals background was freely available on the biog on the site,
> 
> btw, I seem to recall it was me who was 'outed' many years ago on here.


you fucking shit. you said something along the lines of 'like the space hijacker who posts here and works here' kindly giving a link.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> No, because the person who put my details on here is no longer with us, died three years ago


So don't you fucking dare beat me or others around the head with it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> No, because the person who put my details on here is no longer with us, died three years ago


and so you feel justified in 'outing' other people?


----------



## weepiper (Apr 6, 2014)

Well, that's not a sockpuppet at _all_.


----------



## chilango (Apr 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You also posted a photo of someone and mentioned their RL activities and other affiliations.



I missed that.

That's pretty dodgy ground to be treading, even if available elsewhere.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 6, 2014)

chilango said:


> I missed that.
> 
> That's pretty dodgy ground to be treading, even if available elsewhere.


Give me a sec, I'll see if I can find it.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.38degrees.org.uk/pages/staff
> 
> Have a look at the staff of 38 Degrees, certainly fit the demographic discussed all above, including someone who is on their second internship!
> 
> ...



chilango here it is.


----------



## chilango (Apr 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> chilango here it is.



Ah yes. I did see that.

In fairness to treelover I don't think that's quite "outing" as he hasn't linked between a specific individual an poster.

But, if I was the person in question I'd still be pretty pissed off, and it's a dodgy move to make IMHO.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

Ok, I have no qualms about saying I made a mistake and put my hands up to it, I offer an unequivocal apology to the said person.

but I don't like these gadarene rushes to attack one person, I stand by my view that more people would post on here if people didn't act like bullies


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

http://www.shlur.com/2014/01/escapism/

Bloody hell


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

There's always  some normal people waiting to knock down the doors in treelovers world. Well we're in here, we are fed up of your whinging/boosting - now what?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 6, 2014)

But he wouldn't elaborate on why he posted that particular link, and it does link to staff photos as well as claiming that it's a poster and someone belonging to space hijacker. It's personal information.

Which makes the faux outrage about his own being breached when he was asked if his recent trip was a holiday or work-related somewhat hypocritical.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> But he wouldn't elaborate on why he posted that particular link, and it does link to staff photos as well as claiming that it's a poster and someone belonging to space hijacker. It's personal information.
> 
> Which makes the faux outrage about his own being breached when he was asked if his recent trip was a holiday or work-related somewhat hypocritical.


but that's all through him like 'brighton' through rock.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> Ok, I have no qualms about saying I made a mistake and put my hands up to it, I offer an unequivocal apology to the said person.
> 
> but I don't like these gadarene rushes to attack one person, I stand by my view that more people would post on here if people didn't act like bullies


Everyone thinks that you are a boring cunt who never says anything. That doesn't make you christ.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

I haven' been anywhere so is that stalking?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> Ok, I have no qualms about saying I made a mistake and put my hands up to it, I offer an unequivocal apology to the said person.
> 
> but I don't like these gadarene rushes to attack one person, I stand by my view that more people would post on here if people didn't act like bullies


If you want bullies take a look at the thread 'A killer in the making?'. I objected to something and now have posters mocking me calling me Miss Jean Brodie, amongst other things. 

P&P has always been a different part of the boards than the other forums. There are a lot more disagreements and discussions, and less gentle posters. It took several years before I felt brave enough to come in here - not because I thought I would be bullied but because people pull no punches in here. It's not bullying.

There are some nasty posters on these boards and I haven't always seen eye to eye with butchersapron and Pickman's model but they are both decent posters and not bullies.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> I haven' been anywhere so is that stalking?


You sure lad? Think before answering.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> I haven' been anywhere so is that stalking?


if you don't know what stalking is you shouldn't accuse other people of it.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

@BA

What on earth are you doing?


----------



## chilango (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> I stand by my view that more people would post on here if people didn't act like bullies



I think bullying is the wrong term to use. but that aside, I accept that you may be right. 

More people may well post here if posters were more tolerant.

I don't think this is a bad thing though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> @BA
> 
> What on earth are you doing?


you should look in the mirror and ask the same question.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> if you don't know what stalking is you shouldn't accuse other people of it.




BA obviously thinks I've been abroad, which I haven't but the question is, why does he think it is important, I don't question people's off board social activities on here.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> BA obviously thinks I've been abroad, which I haven't but the question is, why does he think it is important, I don't question people's off board social activities on here.


You've not been abroad? That's simply not true.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

Good grief, I haven't been for years, I wish I had though

but where did you find something that said I was?

bizarro!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Why did you say you hadn't been abroad? ffs.  Why do these pointless little lies? What does doing so say about your re-telling of left unity or other events? What does being caught lying do to your credibility?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Why did you say you hadn't been abroad? ffs.  Why do these pointless little lies? What does doing so say about your re-telling of left unity or other events? What does being caught lying do to your credibility?


he's got blair's syndrome, a condition in which the sufferer lies about pointless things which are easily disproved e.g. going to watch newcastle when 18 months old


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Best player i ever saw that Jackie milburn.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Why did you say you hadn't been abroad? ffs.  Why do these pointless little lies? What does doing so say about your re-telling of left unity or other events? What does being caught lying do to your credibility?



Ridiculous, for the record I haven't been abroad for three years. end of that's it, finite, why you have a beef about it is anyones guess, fwiw, I'm not even involved in active politics now, now you and your echo chamber Pickmans can fuck off with your stalking.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Read my lips


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> Ridiculous, for the record I haven't been abroad for three years. end of that's it, finite, why you have a beef about it is anyones guess, fwiw, I'm not even involved in active politics now, now you and your echo chamber Pickmans can fuck of with your stalking.


yes it's always someone else who's doing the bad things and never you.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 6, 2014)

Welcome to dendrite the wonderful new poster have a hobnob lol


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> drunk?



Hard as it may be for you to accept, posters don't *have* to be drunk to get the pip at your incessant swinging from doomy Eeyore, to touter of the next new "Left" thing that's *sure* to make a breakthrough.


----------



## treelover (Apr 7, 2014)

give it a rest,


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> give it a rest,


Why are you trying to police the boards so?


----------



## treelover (Apr 7, 2014)

Cos personal attacks are just not on and make no sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> Cos personal attacks are just not on and make no sense.


Jesus christ, come on down.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

dendrite said:


> Longtime lurker here. Joining to corroborate treelover. I've personally been put off posting and joining these forums, by your emotionally incontinent aggression.



As I've said to many posters before, if you're delicate enough that you get put off of debate on the basis of someone being aggressive, then you shouldn't post or even read - it'll be bad for you.
Of course, much of the time, when we say we're "put off", what we actually mean is that a combination of our own sense of the argument, and our ability to argue it effectively in the face of aggression, is what puts us off.  In fact, the sort of thing you'd have to master if participating in a "live" people-to-people" debate.



> Let's not pretend it isn't happening. You even had to preemptively give an assurance that "I won't attack you" in the OP of a thread about voting Labour in 2015.



To a single particular poster who was using their belief that he'd attack as a "shield" for not posting.  Do lets not forget the context, eh?



> You demand responses (and how!) But people _should _ignore you. For their own good. Because you relate to them as fodder for your thirsty, needy abusiveness.



Interesting personalisation going on there.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> s/he's bringing a brand of cod psychology i thought we'd seen the last of here.



That's not cod psychology, it's cod psychoanalysis, which is as bad, if not worse!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> Why dismiss him?
> 
> 
> you don't do what BA and PM do on here, you post very informative and astute political info and insight.



So BA and P's M don't?  We must be reading different boards.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I post very informative and astute political info and insight. Every fucking day. You don't



Self-praise is no recommendation, young man! Make sure you confess the sin of pride, and do your penance!


----------



## rekil (Apr 7, 2014)

This is reminiscent of workers power's blue skies thinking classic but might as well go in here. 

Horrible design. Wake up sheeple. Let's touch base yeah? Going forward. That'll do it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> Cos personal attacks are just not on and make no sense.



It isn't a "personal attack", it's a fairly middle-of-the-road analysis of your posting history, which oscillates wildly between lamenting (loudly) the death of "the Left", and cheerleading any new org, however mediocre or tainted with reformism and/or neoliberalism.
A personal attack would play you, not a confirmable (or not) thing like your posting history.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

black sheep though! dissident sheep, you've read the design wrong.

I've never seen a black sheep. I would like to before I die. I've seen hairy cows with horns on them, c-beams glittering in the darkness before the tanhauser gate. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of orion.

I've seen black goats and chinese ducks (seriously they look like ducks designed by lewis carol)

but no black sheep


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 7, 2014)

there was a black sheep in the metro this morning.  hold on...


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course, much of the time, when we say we're "put off", what we actually mean is that a combination of our own sense of the argument, and our ability to argue it effectively in the face of aggression, is what puts us off.



one privilege the intersectionalists will never recognise is that of the wordsmith.  the inarticulate shall never inherit the earth.


> In fact, the sort of thing you'd have to master if participating in a "live" people-to-people" debate.


different skillset


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 7, 2014)

http://metro.co.uk/2014/04/06/hes-b...-of-newborns-is-biggest-in-the-world-4690741/


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> one privilege the intersectionalists will never recognise is that of the wordsmith.  the inarticulate shall never inherit the earth.


Still, you do try.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> one privilege the intersectionalists will never recognise is that of the wordsmith.  the inarticulate shall never inherit the earth.


Do you think all those people in 1917 were poets btw? In 84/85?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> one privilege the intersectionalists will never recognise is that of the wordsmith.  the inarticulate shall never inherit the earth.



Or so the revolutionary vanguard are forever telling us.



> different skillset



Not entirely different.  Skills within both sets intersect.


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Do you think all those people in 1917 were poets btw? In 84/85?


your point?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> your point?


That people you deem inarticulate - and consequently weightless - have political agency.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> your point?



fantastic stuff btw _newbie, speaking for those who can't._


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That people you deem inarticulate - and consequently weightless - have political agency.


that's quite an extrapolation of a whimsy    politics is about influence as well as agency.

we're in a different place to the past, communication is increasingly typed rather than spoken


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> that's quite an extrapolation of a whimsy    politics is about influence as well as agency.
> 
> we're in a different place to the past, communication is increasingly typed rather than spoken


Where?


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not entirely different.  Skills within both sets intersect.


true up to a point. relatively few people never learned to talk, plenty can't read or write.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> true up to a point. relatively few people never learned to talk, plenty can't read or write.


I'm sure they'd be glad to hear that you're sticking up for them.


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2014)

tbh I just thought I was joining a conversation not raising a battle cry, but if it comes to sticking up for anybody I'll choose which side I'm on, just as you will.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I post very informative and astute political info and insight. Every fucking day. You don't


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


>


He doesn't.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 7, 2014)

Black Sheep is for drinking


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

newbie said:


> that's quite an extrapolation of a whimsy    politics is about influence as well as agency.
> 
> we're in a different place to the past, communication is increasingly typed rather than spoken



Luckily for the software companies, a small but growing percentage of "typed" stuff is now inputted via voice-recognition.


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2014)

I've never used one, so don't know if the skills required for effective contributions are closer to written clarity or spoken "did I really just say that?".


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


>



Superb, I'm having that.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

The whole point is that his laughter is faked -  is made under duress. Why use it to signify genuine hilarity? In this death, i win.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The whole point is that his laughter is faked -  is made under duress. Why use it to signify genuine hilarity? In this death, i win.


 FFS it's just a class gif. The context of Henry Hill in the film has fuck all to do with anything.

Need to watch Goodfellas again mind, what a film.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Ole said:


> FFS it's just a class gif. The context of Henry Hill in the film has fuck all to do with anything.
> 
> Need to watch Goodfellas again mind, what a film.


Nothing is to do with anything. Cheers.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

Forum's desperately missing a cringe emoticon.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

You tell 'em.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

It's some bloke laughing!!!!! All laughter is therefore the same!!!!!!!

Fucking knobhead.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

Dry your eyes mate. :wherethecringesmileyoughttobe

Precious cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Oh god, are you some sort of _ultra?_


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Oh god, are you some sort of _ultra?_



What?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Hello i have a flare. And flares. Nothing means anything.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Hello i have a flare. And flares. Nothing means anything.



*gasp* You caught me, through scouring through my post history, I'm a football fan. Do you expect me to be ashamed or something? What sport should I be following then? Maybe no sport?

Where the fuck is that cringe smiley eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

I didn't look at your post history. I didn't need to.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I didn't look at your post history. I didn't need to.


And? What's your point about football sunshine?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Ole said:


> And? What's your point about football sunshine?


Sunshine? Go on, call me 'son'.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Odd fight this.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

Odd is right. Didn't a Cardiff City lad start this website in the first place? If it's football fans you have a problem with, it would seem that this is the wrong place to be!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 7, 2014)

Ole


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

ole


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

Fair play Spanks/Butchers.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

Ole said:


> Fair play Spanks/Butchers.



I'm not spanky though. Not until i get back on the regime.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not spanky though. Not until i get back on the regime.


So you're a football lad after all?  Who do you support then?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

The biggest team managed by a crook. Or, about 10th down.



Spoiler: Leeds



Leeds


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The biggest team managed by a crook. Or, about 10th down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of all the fucking teams in England... 

Fucking Leeds. The obsessive, Munich singing fuckwits... you bastard Butchers.


----------



## rekil (Apr 7, 2014)

Sunny wants war.


----------



## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Sunny wants war.



Background on this cunt, mate? Don't know him


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 7, 2014)

Ole said:


> Background on this cunt, mate? Don't know him


Check out Liberal Conspiracy


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 8, 2014)

Ole said:


> Of all the fucking teams in England...
> 
> Fucking Leeds. The obsessive, Munich singing fuckwits... you bastard Butchers.



You couldn't script it could you 

There's only one team in Yorkshire. I don't give a fuck about the league table so long as we finish above them bastards.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Apr 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> Sunny wants war.



doesn't he always?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

newbie said:


> I've never used one, so don't know if the skills required for effective contributions are closer to written clarity or spoken "did I really just say that?".



They're pretty good unless you've got a fairly unusual accent, as most of them "learn" how you as an individual pronounce certain letters and sounds.  There's about half a dozen regular posters on here besides me that I know use speech recog.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> Sunny wants war.




Sunny is a wet wiberal shit-eater posturing as the conscience of England.  CTR he'll be strung up by his knob from a motorway bridge, to be used as a piñata by passing articulated lorries.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 8, 2014)

So I see that Laurie Penny has been sent to report on Calafou.

Why would an editor assign someone to this story who doesn't speak Catalan or Spanish, knows nothing about economics or Spain in general?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Apr 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So I see that Laurie Penny has been sent to report on Calafou.
> 
> Why would an editor assign someone who doesn't speak Catalan or Spanish, knows nothing about economics or Spain in general to this story?



Cause they wanted essentially a travelogue written by someone like their imagined reader?


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 8, 2014)

LOL


----------



## fractionMan (Apr 8, 2014)

ffs


----------



## J Ed (Apr 8, 2014)

Omg it's an authentic _Colonia Posadista





_


----------



## rekil (Apr 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So I see that Laurie Penny has been sent to report on Calafou.
> 
> Why would an editor assign someone to this story who doesn't speak Catalan or Spanish, knows nothing about economics or Spain in general?


She's cheap, she lies about her capabilities and her bosses just don't give a shit. Journos were marking the 100th day since the arrests of AJ staff in Egypt all over the place the other day. Easy to see who the scabs are. Laurie was evidently too busy asking for hugs.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 8, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> LOL



I love that she didn't say 'I'm not going to be tweeting.' What's lots, 10 tweets per day so anything under that is fine? Way to be ethical.


----------



## andysays (Apr 8, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I love that she didn't say 'I'm not going to be tweeting.' What's lots, 10 tweets per day so anything under that is fine? Way to be ethical.



I'm confused. What sort of post capitalist ecoindustrial colony has community media protocols which prevent self-styled activists from dropping in and tweeting loads to enhance their personal image?



> If I can't tweet about it, I don't want to be part of your revolution


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm confused. What sort of post capitalist ecoindustrial colony has community media protocols which prevent self-styled activists from dropping in and tweeting loads to enhance their personal image?


anywhere which doesn't want laurie penny to strut about


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 8, 2014)

FFS

*Stop calling Tony Blair a war criminal. The left should be proud of his record*
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/tony-blair-labour-pride-war-criminal-iraq


----------



## benedict (Apr 8, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> Cause they wanted essentially a travelogue written by someone like their imagined reader?



The profile of a typical NS reader though is soft Labour probably centered around a Compass-like position, not her faux radicale pseudobollocks. Since she has no areas of expertise and a mediocre talent as a cliche-ridden writer, what is her function? Clickbait alone?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> FFS
> 
> *Stop calling Tony Blair a war criminal. The left should be proud of his record*
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/tony-blair-labour-pride-war-criminal-iraq


shurely the left should be proud so many of them repeatedly called for a vote for labour war criminals without illusions


----------



## benedict (Apr 8, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> FFS
> 
> *Stop calling Tony Blair a war criminal. The left should be proud of his record*
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/tony-blair-labour-pride-war-criminal-iraq



One of the great minds of her generation.


----------



## tim (Apr 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So I see that Laurie Penny has been sent to report on Calafou.
> 
> Why would an editor assign someone to this story who doesn't speak Catalan or Spanish, knows nothing about economics or Spain in general?




Those type of idealistic communities are nearly always riven with interpersonal tensions who else would you send to bring a little harmony o the place.


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> FFS
> 
> *Stop calling Tony Blair a war criminal. The left should be proud of his record*
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/tony-blair-labour-pride-war-criminal-iraq




First John Harris, now Zoe, its the great moving right show!

I wonder if is it because we may have right wing hegemony for the foreseeable future, I say may.


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Omg it's an authentic _Colonia Posadista
> 
> 
> 
> ...




http://www.furnessphotography.com/4/post/2013/06/on-the-road-welcome-to-calafou.html

looks an interesting place

what happens if you can't work, disabled, etc?


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

tim said:


> Those type of idealistic communities are nearly always riven with interpersonal tensions who else would you send to bring a little harmony o the place.




absolutely, mild and not so mild paranoia was a key signature of much of the direct action scene




> Calafou attracts a curious variety of donations and suggestions from the wider community which offer some insight into the public perception of this project. In the week that I was there a local man asked if he could bring 500 sheep to graze the land and the woods, a beekeeper who is getting too old to manage his hives offered Calafou his bees, they were given a machine for cutting textile 20 sheets at a time and a man who's glass cutting/polishing business had just closed, donated as much of his stock and machines to Calafou as the guys could fit in a van. - See more at: http://www.furnessphotography.com/4...-welcome-to-calafou.html#sthash.SSl0g3EM.dpuf



Many people seem to want to support it though


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 8, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Ouch.
> 
> http://madammiaow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/laurie-penny-defriends-woman-of-colour.html





DaveCinzano said:


> A genuine WTF moment when Charles Shaar Murray appears out of nowhere to tag in, deliver a quick dropkick, and tag out again.



Speaking of which, Bone is now reporting that both Chen & Murray have ‘sign[ed] up for Rock Against the Rich’!

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2014/0...aar-murray-sign-up-for-rock-against-the-rich/


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> She's cheap, she lies about her capabilities and her bosses just don't give a shit. Journos were marking the 100th day since the arrests of AJ staff in Egypt all over the place the other day. Easy to see who the scabs are. Laurie was evidently too busy asking for hugs.



In the world of high-profile, brand-building media tarts you'll find 'solidarity' is a word often used satirically. See also 'Comrade' and various other buzzwords of the Prada-Meinhof brigade.

Speaking of scabbing, has anybody asked Penny Dreadful why her employers at the New Statesman still refuse to recognise the NUJ?


----------



## benedict (Apr 8, 2014)

treelover said:


> First John Harris, now Zoe, its the great moving right show!
> 
> I wonder if is it because we may have right wing hegemony for the foreseeable future, I say may.



Zoe hasn't moved.


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

She is being attempting some revisionism on Blair.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 8, 2014)

treelover said:


> She is being attempting some revisionism on Blair.


gibberish.

And what evidence does this provide of some rightward shift? (not that I expect an answer from you)


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

so you won't get one then


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> In the world of high-profile, brand-building media tarts you'll find 'solidarity' is a word often used satirically. See also 'Comrade' and various other buzzwords of the Prada-Meinhof brigade.
> 
> Speaking of scabbing, has anybody asked Penny Dreadful why her employers at the New Statesman still refuse to recognise the NUJ?



on a side note I found out union letters to members back in the day would be signed off with 'yours fraternally' 


why don't they do that anymore?


----------



## weepiper (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> on a side note I found out union letters to members back in the day would be signed off with 'yours fraternally'
> 
> 
> why don't they do that anymore?



Excludes the wimmin, eh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

true that- american unions go in for the 'international brotherhood' thing as well. Soritas is the equivalent to frater iirc. 'Yours fraternally and Sorritorially'

fuck it, lets just go with 'yours sincerely' then


----------



## benedict (Apr 8, 2014)

Reminds me of this gem of guilt-outwringing:

"This has been the liberal's dilemma for some time now: is it OK to sub-contract all your domestic work? Obviously, from a Marxist point of view, it isn't – we all make mess, we all have to eat, we all have to look after children if we have them. When some of us refuse to do any of that ourselves, others among us will end up doing all of it."


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> true that- american unions go in for the 'international brotherhood' thing as well. Soritas is the equivalent to frater iirc. 'Yours fraternally and Sorritorially'
> 
> fuck it, lets just go with 'yours sincerely' then



I've seen union emails signed off as 'in solidarity' in the last week


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I've seen union emails signed off as 'in solidarity' in the last week



that seems a fair one, bit more focused than the 'yours sincerely'


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> on a side note I found out union letters to members back in the day would be signed off with 'yours fraternally'
> 
> 
> why don't they do that anymore?



Don't know about the letters but my dad's union refer to each other as brother soinso in their meetings. A proper union that is.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

veers on the masonic/craft union exclusiveness though


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> on a side note I found out union letters to members back in the day would be signed off with 'yours fraternally'
> 
> 
> why don't they do that anymore?


I still do


----------



## weepiper (Apr 8, 2014)

xenon said:


> Don't know about the letters but my dad's union refer to each other as brother soinso in their meetings. A proper union that is.



That is indelibly associated with Tommy Sheridan for me now because he calls everyone 'brother' and 'sister' all the time.
*wipes mind with antibac*


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

weepiper said:


> That is indelibly associated with Tommy Sheridan for me now because he calls everyone 'brother' and 'sister' all the time.
> *wipes mind with antibac*


that's cos he's got the memory of a sieve and can only process if someone is a man or a woman


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> I still do




you immense chauvinist


----------



## xenon (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> veers on the masonic/craft union exclusiveness though



Just fraternal regard. I've only been to one meeting with him, there weren't any women there. I guess they'd be called sister though. .


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> true that- american unions go in for the 'international brotherhood' thing as well. Soritas is the equivalent to frater iirc. 'Yours fraternally and Sorritorially'
> 
> fuck it, lets just go with 'yours sincerely' then



And over the decades their 'international brotherhood' has been immensely inclusive of its Sicilian membership.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> And over the decades their 'international brotherhood' has been immensely inclusive of its Sicilian membership.




I'm not up on the state of things now but I thought the IBT had at least cleaned house somewhat after a solid run of allowing members funds to be given as 'loans' to mobsters.

I recall reading about one such union man who was dissapeared after being implicated in such things circa 1980. You'll no doubt have the name. You always do.

american unionism and its involvement with the mob is a subject that endlessley fascinates me. Make a deal with the devil...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 8, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I've seen union emails signed off as 'in solidarity' in the last week



me too


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm not up on the state of things now but I thought the IBT had at least cleaned house somewhat after a solid run of allowing members funds to be given as 'loans' to mobsters.
> 
> I recall reading about one such union man who was dissapeared after being implicated in such things circa 1980. You'll no doubt have the name. You always do.
> 
> american unionism and its involvement with the mob is a subject that endlessley fascinates me. Make a deal with the devil...



You're probably thinking of Jimmy Hoffa, former National President of the Teamsters. He rose to National President thanks largely to his personal links with the Mob until he went to prison for racketeering and corruption. While he was away the Mob decided he was damaged goods and replaced him with someone less independent and more easily controlled as Hoffa had been too independent for their liking. When Hoffa got out he immediately started agitating to regain the Presidency and wouldn't accept Mob 'advice' to give up and retire into obscurity. Hoffa refused to quietly disappear. The Mob made sure he did, permanently.

And you're right. The endlessly complex relationship between all manner of unions and organised crime in America is fascinating and far predates Hoffa and the Teamsters. You could easily trace the three-way dance between unions,management and gangsters back well into the 19th century starting with the likes of Monk Eastman and Benny Fein, via Jacob Orgen and Louis 'Lepke' Buchalter through to Hoffa and beyond. Incidentally, Buchalter is commonly regarded as the pioneer of modern industrial and union racketeering. He was also the best customer of the Syndicate's enforcement arm nicknamed 'Muder Incorporated' and the only top-level American crimelord ever to be legally executed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 8, 2014)

Thats exactly the person I was talking about too 

I did once read the contention that US unions jumping into bed with the mob was a reaction to the bosses and their hired Pinkertons bringing unacceptable levels of physical coercion on members, so the union chiefs of the time made a faustian pact...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2014)

Ta ta for now comrades.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 9, 2014)

Laurie's piece on San Francisco: http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...-tech-boom-widening-gap-between-rich-and-poor

Becomes more amusing after reading 'What out of town writers need to know about SF' in full, not just selectively quoted. http://www.sfgate.com/living/articl...ters-need-to-know-about-SF-5307139.php#page-1


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 9, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Not really part of the "Commentariat" but this piece of academic wankery was too funny not to share:
> 
> *What Is Cupcake Fascism?*
> by Tom Whyman
> ...



Unbelievable, the Guardian have reproduced this utter dross now. 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/beware-of-cupcake-fascism


----------



## treelover (Apr 9, 2014)

> *No, I won't transfer schools just because Dartmouth can't handle discrimination*
> Since when must victims of hate get up and leave for getting up and protesting? Since when can't you protest at a college sit-in?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/09/dartmouth-college-sit-in-discrimination




Now its struggles for a 'Freedom Budget' a set of 72 proposals that seeks to "eliminate systems of oppression including racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism and ableism" on campus.

though the author does seem to have some grounds for the protest, there are some crazy demands.


----------



## benedict (Apr 9, 2014)

treelover said:


> Now its struggles for a 'Freedom Budget' a set of 72 proposals that seeks to "eliminate systems of oppression including racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism and ableism" on campus.
> 
> though the author does seem to have some grounds for the protest, there are some crazy demands.



If this was taking place at the University of New Hampshire we'd never have learned of it. Even if it was happening at the University of Sunderland I'm not sure we would have.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2014)

treelover said:


> Now its struggles for a 'Freedom Budget' a set of 72 proposals that seeks to "eliminate systems of oppression including racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism and ableism" on campus.
> 
> though the author does seem to have some grounds for the protest, there are some crazy demands.


for one glorious moment i thought this was about dartmouth academy


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 9, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> You couldn't script it could you
> 
> There's only one team in Yorkshire. I don't give a fuck about the league table so long as we finish above them bastards.



You are correct in your assertion that there's only one team in yorkshire but you appear to have attached the wrong link, because a club for whom Andy Booth is some kind of a hero has at best tenuous grounds for the claim to be playing football at all.

This is what a footballer looks like Delroy:



Thought you might enjoy this too


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 9, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> You are correct in your assertion that there's only one team in yorkshire but you appear to have attached the wrong link, because a club for whom Andy Booth is some kind of a hero has at best tenuous grounds for the claim to be playing football at all.
> 
> This is what a footballer looks like Delroy:



you know as well as I do that Boothy was doing great for you lot until his knee injury. Ruined him totally that.

Good tip though - if you need to book a restaurant anywhere around Huddersfield just say your name is Mr A Booth 

My little brother used to ring up TalkSport posing as Andy Booth, got on the air loads of times


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 9, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> My little brother used to ring up TalkSport posing as Andy Booth, got on the air loads of times



Is he quite tall? Just thinking he might have been able to get on the football pitch by doing the same thing 

Even before the injury he was never all that popular - probably had more to do with whose boots he was supposed to be filling than what he did on the pitch though to be fair - Booth had the potential to be a good top flight target man. Were it not for Steve fucking Bould Hirsty would have become widely accepted as being world class (already was IMO). Him and Shearer were coming through at the same time and Hirsty was generally rated as the better of the two - there's a quote from Bobby Robson somewhere where they ask him who's going to replace Gary linekar. His response was something like 'you're asking the wrong question - you should be asking who's going to partner David Hirst.

Got to play golf with him once as well when work paid for me to go on a pro-celebrity 4 ball with the man himself, some teaching pro and a customer  I was so star struck I barely spoke to him - and I was about 25 at the time 

/end of derail - sorry everyone (well, everyone except Delroy Booth )


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 9, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Laurie's piece on San Francisco: http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...-tech-boom-widening-gap-between-rich-and-poor
> 
> Becomes more amusing after reading 'What out of town writers need to know about SF' in full, not just selectively quoted. http://www.sfgate.com/living/articl...ters-need-to-know-about-SF-5307139.php#page-1


It does read like she's done a cut and paste job from the SFgate article, it's well funny


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It does read like she's done a cut and paste job from the SFgate article, it's well funny



One person's cut and paste job is another's thorough desk based research, apparently


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 9, 2014)

andysays said:


> One person's cut and paste job is another's thorough desk based research, apparently



Which often translates as:

'I saw it, read it, liked it and wished I'd actually written it. So C&P'd the original text and rewrote it paragraph by paragraph in my own style in the hope that nobody will notice I've cribbed it from somebody else whose work will go uncredited, unacknowledged and hopefully unnoticed.'


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 9, 2014)

This quote really stands out:



> “We’re aiming for the 10 per cent, which might allow us to have our parents’ lifestyle. We’re just trying to get by in a world that’s not giving us the same chances the baby boomers had. What did I do as an artist? I went and got an engineering degree.”



I cannot be arsed to re-read such contrived nonsense but I do not recall her interviewing any actual poor people at length. They are props to the story. The real victims are the people who are vastly rich already. Or speaking to the bohemian like-minded artists/journalists/writers. All aspirational entrepreneurs fucked over by Google (and their ilk.)

Give me a break.


----------



## killer b (Apr 9, 2014)

TBF, she did credit it.


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> This quote really stands out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Have you met them at all, the poor...?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unbelievable, the Guardian have reproduced this utter dross now.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/beware-of-cupcake-fascism



ARGH I JUST CAME HERE TO POST THAT


----------



## benedict (Apr 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It does read like she's done a cut and paste job from the SFgate article, it's well funny






			
				Laurie Penny said:
			
		

> “They took my shopping cart.”
> 
> On Market Street in downtown San Francisco, an old man with long, dirty hair has dropped his collection can. Coins and scraps of paper spill across the sidewalk and into the road. Nobody is helping.



I find this fucking revolting. The unwashed poor as scene-setting backdrop. Does she chat to the guy? Does she fuck. It's all about her.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> ARGH I JUST CAME HERE TO POST THAT



Unbelievable isn't it? Has to be one of the worst 'left' articles in the mainstream press ever!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unbelievable isn't it? Has to be one of the worst 'left' articles in the mainstream press ever!



Just fucking dire. Fascism based on niceness? The infantilised masses unable to see the writer's genius and 'think dialectically enough'? What an ego-maniac. Worthy of Laurie.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 10, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> This quote really stands out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People who are actually poor are always the threatening baddies who are too stupid to know their own interests in her pieces. The man with a right-wing libertarian (in Britain??) t-shirt asking her for a fag, the American misogynist bloke living out of his car.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 10, 2014)

Now this is the kind of progressive twitter user I can get behind:



Spoiler: safe for work, btw


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 10, 2014)

benedict said:


> I find this fucking revolting. The unwashed poor as scene-setting backdrop. Does she chat to the guy? Does she fuck. It's all about her.



Does she help?


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 10, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Now this is the kind of progressive twitter user I can get behind:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: safe for work, btw



Looks like Michael Fabricant.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 10, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Looks like Michael Fabricant.



Maybe that's what happened to ol' Mickey Fab.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Just fucking dire. Fascism based on niceness? The infantilised masses unable to see the writer's genius and 'think dialectically enough'? What an ego-maniac. Worthy of Laurie.



I hate that sort of stuff, if you are going to chuck around terms like Nazi and fascist it should mean something.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 10, 2014)

Is this the appropriate thread to laugh at Richard Seymour's new beard on?


----------



## captainmission (Apr 10, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Does she help?



In her defense she probably made up this man for her article


----------



## J Ed (Apr 10, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Is this the appropriate thread to laugh at Richard Seymour's new beard on?




lol hipster wanker.

Has anyone pointed out that the Graunid is flogging his book with a themed t-shirt? http://entertainment.guardianoffers...gainst-austerity-t-shirt-g/?INTCMP=mic_232751

I can't remember a deal like that since I was a kid and bought Command and Conquer and got a free t-shirt!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 10, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I hate that sort of stuff, if you are going to chuck around terms like Nazi and fascist it should mean something.



That's Fascist!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 10, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Is this the appropriate thread to laugh at Richard Seymour's new beard on?





it goes well with his intellectual swagger


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 10, 2014)

Is calling someone insane for having batshit transphobia views offensive? I've just been told off for it, tempted to tell the person to piss off given I suffer from mental health problems myself. But maybe I am wrong and it is offensive, someone needs to tell virtually everyone I know then.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 10, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is calling someone insane for having batshit transphobia views offensive? I've just been told off for it, tempted to tell the person to piss off given I suffer from mental health problems myself. But maybe I am wrong and it is offensive, someone needs to tell virtually everyone I know then.



IMO insane is one of those words which is divorced from its literal meaning when used like that, then again I think the same of twat and cunt which probably makes me a misogynist


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> IMO insane is one of those words which is divorced from its literal meaning when used like that, then again I think the same of twat and cunt which probably makes me a misogynist



Yep twat and cunt just mean a bastard to me


----------



## fogbat (Apr 10, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yep twat and cunt just mean a bastard to me


Check out someones's legitimacy privilege


----------



## andysays (Apr 10, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is calling someone insane for having batshit transphobia views offensive? I've just been told off for it, tempted to tell the person to piss off given I suffer from mental health problems myself. But maybe I am wrong and it is offensive, someone needs to tell virtually everyone I know then.



I don't find it offensive, but it isn't exactly a coherent argument as to why you disagree with them, an argument which I'm sure you're more than capable of making (though sometimes all you really want to do is lash out  )


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 10, 2014)

andysays said:


> I don't find it offensive, but it isn't exactly a coherent argument as to why you disagree with them, an argument which I'm sure you're more than capable of making (though sometimes all you really want to do is lash out  )



It was in the context of a long blog post where I did make an argument against them!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 10, 2014)

Ah well, she was probably having a bad day or something.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 10, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Is this the appropriate thread to laugh at Richard Seymour's new beard on?




I'm struggling to think of a thread on which that wouldn't be appropriate. Maybe an RIP one.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 10, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm struggling to think of a thread on which that wouldn't be appropriate. Maybe an RIP one.


he's no peaches though


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.furnessphotography.com/4/post/2013/06/on-the-road-welcome-to-calafou.html





> I spoke with a woman who attended a workshop at Calafou last year on how to adapt a car's engine so that it uses less petrol and partially runs off water.



Audi are shitting themselves


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 11, 2014)

Check your privilege with this handy quiz

http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you?bffb&s=mobile


----------



## weepiper (Apr 11, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Check your privilege with this handy quiz
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you?bffb&s=mobile





> You live with 42 out of 100 points of privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eat my lack of privilege, Laurie.


----------



## cesare (Apr 11, 2014)

I got 35 which is a load of bollocks.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 11, 2014)

You live with 63 out of 100 points of privilege.






*You’re quite privileged. You’ve had a few struggles, but overall your life has been far easier than most. This is not a bad thing, nor is it something to be ashamed of. But you should be aware of your advantages and work to help others who don’t have them. Thank you for checking your privilege.*


----------



## cesare (Apr 11, 2014)

"I have never done my taxes myself" should be "I always do my taxes myself" cos in the UK self assessment is an indicator of privilege.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 11, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Check your privilege with this handy quiz
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you?bffb&s=mobile



I got 43.

How the fuck is never having to do your own taxes a privilege? Or not having a student loan?


----------



## weepiper (Apr 11, 2014)

cesare said:


> "I have never done my taxes myself" should be "I always do my taxes myself" cos in the UK self assessment is an indicator of privilege.



It's very very American.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 11, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I got 43.
> 
> How the fuck is never having to do your own taxes a privilege? Or not having a student loan?



I think they mean 'I've always paid an accountant to do it for me' and 'Daddy paid my living expenses at university'.


----------



## cesare (Apr 11, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It's very very American.


Yep eg that Sallie Mae question


----------



## J Ed (Apr 11, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It's very very American.



Which is appropriate since intersectionalism has been imported wholesale from American universities with very little effort expended into making it relevant here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Which is appropriate since intersectionalism has been imported wholesale from American universities with very little effort expended into making it relevant here.


insert 'anywhere'


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 11, 2014)

cesare said:


> Yep eg that Sallie Mae question



Yeah I don't know what it is but unless it's something like that show friends or something I don't feel privileged not knowing.


----------



## cesare (Apr 11, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah I don't know what it is but unless it's something like that show friends or something I don't feel privileged not knowing.



Google tells me that it's some sort of US student loan company


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2014)

I got 15 on that liberal piece of shit test. My under-privilige actually now gives me power in the real world of made up shit these private school dicks have built.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I got 15 on that liberal piece of shit test. My under-privilige actually now gives me power in the real world of made up shit these private school dicks have built.


I didn't know you were a transexual muslim


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 11, 2014)

Conclusive proof that this test is fundamentally flawed:


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I didn't know you were a transexual muslim


I guess being white bumped it up as well.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 11, 2014)

FWIW I got 38 (not privileged), mainly by adjusting my answers as if I'd have to pay for private treatment.  Being Pagan helped too.

Does knowing how to interpret the questions to get a more accurate result imply privilege?


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 11, 2014)

63%, not quite enough to qualify for a White Privileged Male Railcard.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2014)

so we've had it with 'urban v the commentariat' and now we're all busy checking our privilege


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 11, 2014)

Buzzfeed is shit.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 11, 2014)

I got underprivileged, which is absolute bullshit, so there you go.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 11, 2014)

DownwardDog said:


> Audi are shitting themselves



I'm not sure the workshoppers have quite grasped the principles behind the internal combustion engine yet.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure the workshoppers have quite grasped the principles behind the internal combustion engine yet.


Suck, squeeze, bang, blow, you mean?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 11, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Suck, squeeze, bang, blow, you mean?



That, and the fact that to make an engine suck, squeeze, bang and blow, one needs a fuel that explodes when ignited. A car running on fuel that's got water in it, will have a bit of a problem with the "bang" component!


----------



## peterkro (Apr 11, 2014)

Apparently I'm underprivileged .


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Eat my lack of privilege, Laurie.


Follow with my lack of privilege for pudding 





44 out of 100.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> That, and the fact that to make an engine suck, squeeze, bang and blow, one needs a fuel that explodes when ignited. A car running on fuel that's got water in it, will have a bit of a problem with the "bang" component!


Yes, I did wonder about that bit. If cars could run on water-mix fuels then our reliance on petroleum fuels would be radically reduced and all the carmakers would be doing it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, I did wonder about that bit. If cars could run on water-mix fuels then our reliance on petroleum fuels would be radically reduced and all the carmakers would be doing it.



Or hiring hitmen to take out the scientists doing the research on petroleum/H2O)-mix fuels.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 11, 2014)

How is using prescription drugs a privilege?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 11, 2014)

I got 28


----------



## Lo Siento. (Apr 11, 2014)

I was not bullied as a child for any of my identities.
I have never tried to distance myself from any of my identities.
I have never been self-conscious about any of my identities.
I have never questioned any of my identities.
I was bullied as a child for being a bit posh. I've tried to distance myself from my poshness. I'm self-conscious about being posh. I've questioned the extent of my poshness.

OPPRESSION.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 11, 2014)

50.


Lo Siento. said:


> I was not bullied as a child for any of my identities.
> I have never tried to distance myself from any of my identities.
> I have never been self-conscious about any of my identities.
> I have never questioned any of my identities.
> ...



Were you also mocked for your accent?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Apr 11, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> 50.
> 
> 
> Were you also mocked for your accent?


 Sometimes. *sniffs*


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 11, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> Sometimes. *sniffs*



(((((((Lo Siento))))))))


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 11, 2014)

I can't even get opening of link privilege


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 11, 2014)

People at a place I used to work at would try and engineer situations where I would say the word 'parcel' so they could amuse themselves at my West Country accent. This sometimes involved putting me on shifts in the post room.

I demand a support group and to be allowed to speak in preference to anyone not suffering accent oppression.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How is using prescription drugs a privilege?


Because in the US you have to pay for drugs and they can be quite pricey. So I'm assuming (assumption privilege) that if you can afford the drugs you score privilege points for having the money to do so.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I was not bullied as a child for any of my identities.
> I have never tried to distance myself from any of my identities.
> I have never been self-conscious about any of my identities.
> I have never questioned any of my identities.
> ...


I too was mocked for my 'poshness' at school. We moved when I was quite young so my rural Oxfordshire accent was deemed 'posh' by the kids speaking with a Birmingham/West Midlands accent. 

As my parents had no money, I rarely had new clothes unless my mum made them and was about as unposh as it got, I found this quite hurtful. Kids can be cruel.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 11, 2014)

That privilege test is horribly preachy, I didn't get past answering about 10 of them. Even the way people say that god-awful phrase, like they just picked up on it recently as the thing to say at the moment - it's exclusivist in itself. Maybe I'm having an off day, but what is PDA it refers to? Is it some fangled thing that only special people who know the latest lingo understand?


----------



## JHE (Apr 11, 2014)

Public display of affection


----------



## Greebo (Apr 11, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> <snip>what is PDA it refers to? Is it some fangled thing that only special people who know the latest lingo understand?





JHE said:


> Public display of affection


^This - holding, hugging, kissing, sitting on each other... anything which is neither a firm handshake nor full on sex but involves non-essential physical contact in a public place.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 12, 2014)

Also, not having student loans etc isn't an identity


----------



## andysays (Apr 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also, not having student loans etc isn't an identity



Being oppressed/under-privileged doesn't (shouldn't) have to have an "identity" associated with it, though I suppose if you can concoct one it's all to the good for maximum oppression points


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How is using prescription drugs a privilege?



"Affordable" healthcare, I suspect.


----------



## rekil (Apr 12, 2014)

Giving tramps your leftovers is a little bit communism. #LeftoversForTramps


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2014)

She's been eating at that station since she was 7? This habitual exaggeration on even trivial things is bordering on outright lying.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2014)

could she not have got him a burger of his own


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2014)

only people with more money than sense buy food in victoria station


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> could she not have got him a burger of his own


people don't stay rich by buying dinner for the indigent.


----------



## tim (Apr 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She's been eating at that station since she was 7? This habitual exaggeration on even trivial things is bordering on outright lying.




Lunch with Nanny before being  put on the train for her first term at prep school.


----------



## Westonman (Apr 12, 2014)

Maybe she bunked the train to ER.


----------



## tim (Apr 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> people don't stay rich by buying dinner for the indigent.



Stay rich! The poor woman's virtually on the breadline herself but clearly her heart's in the right place.





 *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed* Apr 11
I feel bad now for not buying him an entire meal. I'm not flush but I could have covered him. Next time I'll be less taken aback.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 13, 2014)

Hint: he wanted you to give him enough for a tin or a pastie. It's not an existential crises. Just give if you have, don't if you aint. And give does not mean the remains of your fucking falafal


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 13, 2014)

She wasn't in Calafou for very long then.


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 13, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> People at a place I used to work at would try and engineer situations where I would say the word 'parcel' so they could amuse themselves at my West Country accent. This sometimes involved putting me on shifts in the post room.
> 
> I demand a support group and to be allowed to speak in preference to anyone not suffering accent oppression.



I saw  a filum about something like that once. When I was wee . So I did.


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> Now its struggles for a 'Freedom Budget' a set of 72 proposals that seeks to "eliminate systems of oppression including racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism and ableism" on campus.
> 
> though the author does seem to have some grounds for the protest, there are some crazy demands.



anyone have an idea why they use this apparent hipsterism

Latin@


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> anyone have an idea why they use this apparent hipsterism
> 
> Latin@



Because it combines both gender specific forms latino/latina into one gender neutral form.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 13, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She wasn't in Calafou for very long then.



Too few entrepreneurs for her liking.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 13, 2014)

A


DownwardDog said:


> Because it combines both gender specific forms latino/latina into one gender neutral form.


long with a radicalish anarchy style, and a monetising link to with it e- commerce


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 13, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> A
> 
> long with a radicalish anarchy style, and a monetising link to with it e- commerce



so its hipster shite then ?


----------



## rekil (Apr 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Giving tramps your leftovers is a little bit communism. #LeftoversForTramps



A line in this week's game of thrones raised a chuckle.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  14h
So I am going to Brussels next month to dig around in European politics before the elections. Who's around, who should I talk to?

We're crowdsourcing an article again...


----------



## treelover (Apr 14, 2014)

Not defending her, but haven't journalists always tried to get sources/tips for their stories or to create new ones?, the net just facilitates it on a wider scale.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 14, 2014)

She's going to Brussels. The story is under her nose over here. But the sort of people that it involves are not racy enough.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  14h
> So I am going to Brussels next month to dig around in European politics before the elections. Who's around, who should I talk to?
> 
> We're crowdsourcing an article again...


It's like the shittest episode of _Knightmare_ ever.

*“Go left! GO LEFT! LEFT!!!”*


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> Not defending her, but haven't journalists always tried to get sources/tips for their stories or to create new ones?, the net just facilitates it on a wider scale.


Getting sources and tips is one thing. Asking twitter to help you every time you have an article is another.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 14, 2014)

Look forward to the addendum, “Does anyone know any English-speaking people in Brussels who can do my homework for me?”


----------



## J Ed (Apr 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Look forward to the addendum, “Does anyone know any English-speaking people in Brussels who can do my homework for me?”



You'd think with all that expensive private education you'd get some MFL knowledge.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 14, 2014)

Owen Jones just tweeted this, apparently:

From Owen Jones twitter feed

Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84 2h

Just turned up at the @guardian. “Are you here for work experience?”
asks the receptionist


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Getting sources and tips is one thing. Asking twitter to help you every time you have an article is another.



Nothing wrong with sources and tips. Nothing wrong with querying possible clients about article ideas, either. Repeatedly asking people to do most of her job for her is another matter.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> You'd think with all that expensive private education you'd get some MFL knowledge.



You'd think Mummy and Daddy would know a few EU high-ups really. Must be nouveau riche, not proper money.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 14, 2014)

I hope LP dies at the hands of the teenage intersectionalistas her ilk breed. Not sure how that could happen but I hope it does.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2014)

steady on


----------



## J Ed (Apr 14, 2014)

Death by a thousand tumblrs..


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2014)

I mean she's an annoying fauxscialist but death? there are many who live that deserve death. And many dead who deserved life. Can you give it to them, SpackleFrog? Do not be so quick to deal in death as judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends


----------



## andysays (Apr 14, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Owen Jones just tweeted this, apparently:
> 
> From Owen Jones twitter feed
> 
> ...



Poor Owen. Do you think he still gets asked for ID in pubs?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I mean she's an annoying fauxscialist but death? there are many who live that deserve death. And many dead who deserved life. Can you give it to them, SpackleFrog? Do not be so quick to deal in death as judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends



I'll take it I've just been lectured by the very wise then. Ta for the pearls of wisdom.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2014)

I cast them before swine etc

no but thats a gandalf quote above, apt though it may be I can't claim it as mine


----------



## weepiper (Apr 14, 2014)

Ugh. No need to wish death on her, I can't stand her but that's unnecessary


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> Poor Owen. Do you think he still gets asked for ID in pubs?




his youthful visage is a privilege as checked as his shirts


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I hope LP dies at the hands of the teenage intersectionalistas her ilk breed. Not sure how that could happen but I hope it does.


on a plane. it crashes in the mountains in south america. lp captured by cannibal teenage intersectionalistas with a yen for bbq'd members of the commentariat.

or

on a plane. it crashes in the mountains in south america. lp captured by lost tribe of incas. freed by teenage intersentionalistas among the incas who find their idol lp not what they had imagined. it's up the sacrificial pyramid with her and the last thing she sees is her still-beating heart ripp'd from her chest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> his youthful visage is a privilege as checked as his shirts


give it ten years and he'll have a drinker's ruddy complexion.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> on a plane. it crashes in the mountains in south america. lp captured by cannibal teenage intersectionalistas with a yen for bbg'd members of the commentariat.
> 
> or
> 
> on a plane. it crashes in the mountains in south america. lp captured by lost tribe of incas. freed by teenage intersentionalistas among the incas who find their idol lp not what they had imagined. it's up the sacrificial pyramid with her and the last thing she sees is her still-beating heart ripp'd from her chest.



They're both so beautiful... Ideal wedding gift material.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 14, 2014)

One way I could see Laurie Penny dying at the hands of teenage intersectionalists is if she went to one of those weird white guilt plantation things in America where white liberals get black people to whip them while they are in chains because they have a fetish to rid them of their white guilt.

Thinking about it, with the rise of intersectionalistas here, setting one up might be a good way to make a few quid here...


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I hope LP dies at the hands of the teenage intersectionalistas her ilk breed. Not sure how that could happen but I hope it does.


That's well out of order. Whatever she's done, death threats however 'humourous' are not on.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> on a plane. it crashes in the mountains in south america. lp captured by cannibal teenage intersectionalistas with a yen for bbq'd members of the commentariat.
> 
> or
> 
> on a plane. it crashes in the mountains in south america. lp captured by lost tribe of incas. freed by teenage intersentionalistas among the incas who find their idol lp not what they had imagined. it's up the sacrificial pyramid with her and the last thing she sees is her still-beating heart ripp'd from her chest.


Not cool Pickman's. No need for death threats, she's done nothing to deserve that.


----------



## andysays (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That's well out of order. Whatever she's done, death threats however 'humourous' are not on.



I thought (or maybe hoped) that it was metaphorical rather than literal, like "dying a death", but if it was meant literally then yes, it's well out of order.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Not cool Pickman's. No need for death threats, she's done nothing to deserve that.


no death threats here, just some mild imagination


----------



## treelover (Apr 14, 2014)

Stand by for Laura interjection!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 14, 2014)

Those aren't death threats. They miss the crucial "threat" part.

That said, I think we can do without that stuff.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That's well out of order. Whatever she's done, death threats however 'humourous' are not on.



Not a threat, as noted. I'm a bit surprised by this reaction to be honest.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Not a threat, as noted. I'm a bit surprised by this reaction to be honest.


There's been stuff related to LP and acts of violence being wished on her before. Some were clearly humourous, others not so much, and I know it's imaginary but there's been a sort of guideline for a while where we only discuss her work, and the death stuff is pretty much unnecessary.

I'm sure she gets a lot of abuse online as it is, we know she reads this forum and I don't think we should contribute to the abuse she gets.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

if i'd wanted to be abusive, believe me i'd have been abusive


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> if i'd wanted to be abusive, believe me i'd have been abusive


I know you would have been, I just don't think imaginary deaths are appropriate on this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I know you would have been, I just don't think imaginary deaths are appropriate on this thread.


better than real one we'll all meet too soon tho. and most real deaths are banal.


----------



## tim (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  14h
> So I am going to Brussels next month to dig around in European politics before the elections. Who's around, who should I talk to?
> 
> We're crowdsourcing an article again...


----------



## classicdish (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> ...we know she reads this forum...


I doubt she reads it anymore


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 14, 2014)

classicdish said:


> I doubt she reads it anymore



Not since last July according to her profile on here (may have registered a new lurker account though I guess)


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> There's been stuff related to LP and acts of violence being wished on her before. Some were clearly humourous, others not so much, and I know it's imaginary but there's been a sort of guideline for a while where we only discuss her work, and the death stuff is pretty much unnecessary.
> 
> I'm sure she gets a lot of abuse online as it is, we know she reads this forum and I don't think we should contribute to the abuse she gets.



Begrudgingly, I suppose you have a point there. Sigh. Can I claim it's my right to react to her privileged non-sociopathic status in this way as a means of expressing my lived experience of oppression?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Begrudgingly, I suppose you have a point there. Sigh. Can I claim it's my right to react to her privileged non-sociopathic status in this way as a means of expressing my lived experience of oppression?


Tricky. I think you'd have to do a full intersectional privilege analysis to be sure. Use the PD wheel.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 14, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Not a threat, as noted. I'm a bit surprised by this reaction to be honest.



Yes I am confused that anyone considers what you said to be a 'threat'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2014)

it clearly wasn't a threat but as endlessly irritating as she may be its a bit much to be wishing death. I wish death upon people who justify that level of hatred. Penny's annoying but its hardly pinochet is it


----------



## J Ed (Apr 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> it clearly wasn't a threat but as endlessly irritating as she may be its a bit much to be wishing death. I wish death upon people who justify that level of hatred. Penny's annoying but its hardly pinochet is it



I would understand this response if it was said re: a scenario that seemed realistic or likely. I agree that LP doesn't actually deserve death and I don't think that Spackle Frog thinks otherwise tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I agree that LP doesn't actually deserve death


it's a pity then that she is unlikely to live forever.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2014)

I would continue riding my high horse but I have remembered that I've called death so many times I don't really have a leg to stand on.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's a pity then that she is unlikely to live forever.



Well given her class if we do figure it out she is going to get the life extending pillz sooner


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 14, 2014)

#killallmen


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I would continue riding my high horse but I have remembered that I've called death so many times I don't really have a leg to stand on.



I think that's terrible - how could you?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think that's terrible - how could you?




couldn't, kept falling over


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm at Victoria now getting a burger can't see any homeless people to share it with???


----------



## Greebo (Apr 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'm at Victoria now getting a burger can't see any homeless people to share it with???


Look outside the station  - they'll be delighted to be woken up and handed the cold greasy remnants of your burger.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2014)

Oops sorry finished it before I saw that


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 15, 2014)

Burger thread ----->


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2014)




----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

Oxbridge educated Asian woman writes "On posh white blokes in NGOs"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'm at Victoria now getting a burger can't see any homeless people to share it with???


did you not see any journalists either?


----------



## rekil (Apr 15, 2014)

Molly Crabapple slagging off Bush's paintings and politics. Two terms as president and he's a 'failure' apparently.



> They’re ideal clickbait-kitsch from a boy who would grow into an adorable grandpa, without ever becoming an adult. Bush grins in his painting smock and we laugh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Molly Crabapple slagging off Bush's paintings and politics. Two terms as president and he's a 'failure' apparently.


has la crabapple displayed any of her own daubs?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Molly Crabapple slagging off Bush's paintings and politics. Two terms as president and he's a 'failure' apparently.



Given her comments on foreign policy I would expect her to be a big Bush fan.

Also, criticising Bush's paintings? Low fucking hanging fruit,


----------



## rekil (Apr 15, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> has la crabapple displayed any of her own daubs?


Like this classic?



Spoiler


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 15, 2014)

This is supposed to be Chelsea Manning. Great sketch, Crabapple. [Spoilered for size]



Spoiler


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 15, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> This is supposed to be Chelsea Manning. Great sketch, Crabapple.



Heck of a job, Crabby.


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Molly Crabapple slagging off Bush's paintings and politics. Two terms as president and he's a 'failure' apparently.





> clickbait-kitsch



Is she plagiarising reviews of her own work now?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

http://awakeningthehorse.wordpress.com/about-2/

Someone I know through anti cuts stuff just posted this.

Is it me or ... 'People of European heritage'?

Really?

Well its the end point of where this identity politics shit ends up.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Molly Crabapple slagging off Bush's paintings and politics. Two terms as president and he's a 'failure' apparently.




she says while doing a b-rate steadman impression for a c-list Thompson


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 15, 2014)

Fucking hell, Dan Hodges. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...s-why-youre-being-criticised-sarah-wollaston/


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

Our Indigenous cousins in Basque Country still hold the story of Zalzaval or Horse-man from whom humans descended.  In Celtic and Germanic culture, Epona the Horse is associated with the Sun and led the souls of the dead to the after-life.  No other animal has such a long and revered place in the lives of traditional European peoples.


For fucks sake.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 15, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Fucking hell, Dan Hodges. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100267696/nigel-evans-has-had-his-career-ruined-thats-why-youre-being-criticised-sarah-wollaston/



Jeeeeesus, what is wrong with him?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Our Indigenous cousins in Basque Country still hold the story of Zalzaval or Horse-man from whom humans descended.  In Celtic and Germanic culture, Epona the Horse is associated with the Sun and led the souls of the dead to the after-life.  No other animal has such a long and revered place in the lives of traditional European peoples.
> 
> 
> For fucks sake.



Quiet, horse person.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Quiet, horse person.



I couldn't actually believe he posted it, is it just because it has buzzwords like 'decolonization' in there? I mean I just saw it and thought it looked more than a bit fash?


----------



## rekil (Apr 15, 2014)

#NotYourHorsepeopleSidekick


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

I mean 'indigenous European culture'? Really?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

Awakening the Horse People serves people of European heritage (POEH) and others interested in decolonization by providing practical resources that can aid in decolonization, reconnection with ancestral lifeways, and re-development of an identity rooted in the culture of place.

You are invited on a most amazing adventure to find who you are and the people you come 

What like the wandervogel?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 15, 2014)

Sounds a tad fascist to me.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> culture of place.


 
People not of this place not welcome here.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Sounds a tad fascist to me.



This guy who is quite the intersectionalist just posted it. I dunno whether I should point it out, somehow I doubt he'd thank me!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> People not of this place not welcome here.



Exactly, blut und boden type shit


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Our Indigenous cousins in Basque Country still hold the story of Zalzaval or Horse-man from whom humans descended.  In Celtic and Germanic culture, Epona the Horse is associated with the Sun and led the souls of the dead to the after-life.  No other animal has such a long and revered place in the lives of traditional European peoples.
> 
> 
> For fucks sake.



Hush, neigh-sayer


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2014)

It's not fascist - it spiritualised multi-culturalism. But that, of course, relies on borders and boundaries between cultures (read races). So it's pretty clearly race-based. It's almost wandering into ariosophist style racism of the soul. But rather than a hierarchy of racial-souls _all our racial souls are equal_. Vomitous drivel.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

Am I overreacting or is that site fash and pretending not to be under the guise of intersectionality?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

Culture of place can mean a lot of things, but if you include "european heritage" AND "decolonisation" then the alarm goes off.

Who are the people who have "colonised" europe and how will this "decolonisation" take place?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I overreacting or is that site fash and pretending not to be under the guise of intersectionality?


 
Well the two things are not exclusive. The BNP are well into "Identity" and rights for whites now.

Avoid.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well the two things are not exclusive. The BNP are well into "Identity" and rights for whites now.
> 
> Avoid.



Yeah I thought I should point this out... Don't reckon I would get much thanks for it tho lol


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I thought I should point this out... Don't reckon I would get much thanks for it tho lol



Doesn't matter, you should. Whoever posted this clearly needs help and if you don't provide that help then really, in a tiny insignificant way, you are kind of letting The Class down.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Awakening the Horse People



First the Sheeple, now this. Fecks' sake.


----------



## The Pale King (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Am I overreacting or is that site fash and pretending not to be under the guise of intersectionality?



You are not overreacting. Ancestral lifeways? Culture of place? sounds like fascism 101 to me.


----------



## The Pale King (Apr 15, 2014)

Billy Bragg speaking not singing at the LSE later this month. Leave your skateboards at home kids!
*
England: a Nation Defined by Dissent*

*Billy Bragg *
*Date: Thursday 29th May*
*Time: 6.30-8pm*
*Location: Old Theatre, Old Building* 
Is it possible to be both progressive and patriotic? Billy Bragg argues that from Magna Carta to Euro-scepticism, England is a nation that has been defined by dissent


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 15, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Billy Bragg speaking not singing at the LSE later this month. Leave your skateboards at home kids!
> *England: a Nation Defined by Dissent*
> 
> *Billy Bragg
> ...



Is he still hawking that shite?


----------



## The Pale King (Apr 15, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is he still hawking that shite?



Talk about money for old rope.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 15, 2014)

who the fuck are white europeans in europe intrested in being decolonised by?  romans?  moors?  celts?  blacks? i haven't got a fucking scooby what they're on about.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 15, 2014)

actually, if we could be decolonised by billy bragg and his mates, i'd sign up for that.


----------



## captainmission (Apr 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> who the fuck are white europeans in europe intrested in being decolonised by?  romans?  moors?  celts?  blacks? i haven't got a fucking scooby what they're on about.



By themselves. By the white euporean civilisation that stopped them being able to experience magic horse powers, or non-linear time, or dancing like a crane, or healing yourself with shamanic dreaming, or whatever noble savage fantasy they use to project on to native americans until they decided cultural appropriation was a terrible crime.

Just think otherkin, but where they're a white power shaman instead of a dragon


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> This guy who is quite the intersectionalist just posted it. I dunno whether I should point it out, somehow I doubt he'd thank me!



Point it out. Sucker's gotta learn.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://awakeningthehorse.wordpress.com/about-2/
> 
> Someone I know through anti cuts stuff just posted this.
> 
> ...


Rights for whites


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I thought I should point this out... Don't reckon I would get much thanks for it tho lol



Give us his twitter address!


----------



## captainmission (Apr 15, 2014)

Well here's a cartoon calling for the forced deportion of black people to africa. By a white french woman. Who pretends to be a native american. Who she thinks are crows. Whilst criticising other white people for pretending to be native americans.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 15, 2014)

captainmission I don't have the words to describe how wrong that cartoon is. I just don't.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2014)

Put the horse people out to pasture


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> who the fuck are white europeans in europe intrested in being decolonised by?  romans?  moors?  celts?  blacks? i haven't got a fucking scooby what they're on about.



Usually fash use this word re: Jews.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Usually fash use this word re: Jews.



Well yeah going on about a 'culture of place' etc.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Usually fash use this word re: Jews.



The guy who posted this is in an anti cuts group, I am not trying to be horrible but I literally think he posted it because he saw the word decolonization.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 15, 2014)

Decolonisation sounds like a radical surgery for Crohn's.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://awakeningthehorse.wordpress.com/about-2/


That is bonkers. 

Thanks for the laugh  I feel like it is too niche/weird to be worth worry too much about any sinister connotations. I'd definitely have words with people posting it though


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2014)

Or maybe I'm being too cynical - are we just too removed from our cultural heritage to connect with our inner horse?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2014)

It's really just this person making posters.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2014)

He's deleted it now...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://awakeningthehorse.wordpress.com/about-2/



Could be the sister site to wateringthehorse.com


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2014)

how can you be a former co-founder? Surely once you've founded something you're a co-founder, that's it.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2014)




----------



## benedict (Apr 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


>




Was just watching that episode last night on YouTube! Classic stuff. *nostalgic*


----------



## agricola (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well yeah going on about a 'culture of place' etc.



First horses, now fish.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Look outside the station  - they'll be delighted to be woken up and handed the cold greasy remnants of your burger.



Cab drivers aren't delighted by free food and drink.

'Do you have room in your cab for 12 pints and a curry..?'

'Sure, absolutely.'

'BLEEEEUUUURRRRGH!!'


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's really just this person making posters.



What is with this thing of "re-awakening connection to your ancestors" and thereby "knowing your culture". 

Even where it doesn't have fascist overtones, it still seems like a profoundly anti-modern, anti-enlightenment, anti-humanist trend. I'm not suggesting it's wide spread or becoming dominant or anything, but the fact that it has any appeal in the 21st century just amazes me.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2014)

It's _because _it's the 21st century - alienation in an individual consumers market of spirituality and pathetic attempts at community.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2014)




----------



## chilango (Apr 15, 2014)

...in the absence of the sacred.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Awakening the Horse People serves people of European heritage (POEH) and others interested in decolonization by providing practical resources that can aid in decolonization, reconnection with ancestral lifeways, and re-development of an identity rooted in the culture of place.
> 
> You are invited on a most amazing adventure to find who you are and the people you come
> 
> What like the wandervogel?



Its only redeeming feature is that fact that the acronym POEH should probably be pronounced 'poo'. That's got to be worth something surely?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 15, 2014)

I've been thinking about this all day and the only thing decolonisation can mean in this context is getting rid of the influence/prescence of non-Europeans. Right? Or have I misunderstood?


----------



## weepiper (Apr 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


>




No shit. Does she want a fucking prize for this or something?


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's _because _it's the 21st century - alienation in an individual consumers market of spirituality and pathetic attempts at community.



I agree about the alienation bit, but a return to mysticism really is a pathetic attempt to find community.

Maybe more disheartening than amazing, cause I suppose it is just about explainable


----------



## weepiper (Apr 15, 2014)

weepiper said:


> No shit. Does she want a fucking prize for this or something?



I forgot, she already got the prize for this, a successful journalism career despite never having been on the fucking sharp end of having to leave your kids to go to work to pay the bills.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 15, 2014)

weepiper said:


> No shit. Does she want a fucking prize for this or something?



She probably does yes. Or at least some accolades.


----------



## rekil (Apr 15, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I forgot, she already got the prize for this, a successful journalism career despite never having been on the fucking sharp end of having to leave your kids to go to work to pay the bills.


Remember: having no children is an oppression according to The Wheel and priv off international rules, so step back!


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 15, 2014)

LOL, fucking hell.



> When I was unemployed all I wanted was a job or enough cash for something posh and tasty from Sainsbury's. When I finally got a job I wanted a better one so I could buy nice clothes and go on holiday. Then I started wanting a house, but despite the fact my boyfriend and I earn decent enough salaries this is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Do I feel thwarted? Yes. Am I angry? Most certainly. Will I be revolting? Probably not.


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-people-pessimistic-future-britons?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Remember: having no children is an oppression according to The Wheel and priv off international rules, so step back!


I'm _pretty sure_ that if Laura was to attempt to argue that to Weeps in person, it would result in a D-lock getting stuck in a face.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> LOL, fucking hell.
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-people-pessimistic-future-britons?CMP=twt_gu



I wonder if she is including herself in..



> Sometimes older people, especially on the left, forget that young Britons lack any kind of political education. Yet as a demographic we are woefully ill-informed of even basic political structures, let alone things like socialism or feminism


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I forgot, she already got the prize for this, a successful journalism career despite *because of* never having been on the fucking sharp end of having to leave your kids to go to work to pay the bills.



Corrected that for you


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


>



She did a wonderful 'oooh, I'm _sure_ you didn't mean to say...', nicely closing down debate.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 15, 2014)

No way. LP is not an expert on having to leave your kids to go to work. Who on earth thought she was a good person to voice that opinions? 

This will be the same LP that flies to and from wherever at the drop of a hat to chase articles or quaff champagne with her neoliberal friends like Molly. She's part of the economic system.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> She did a wonderful 'oooh, I'm _sure_ you didn't mean to say...', nicely closing down debate.


She did do that, didn't she?

Though I'm a little perplexed about why C4 News' production team put her up 'against' Bousted. Did they book her hoping for some sort of feminist line about a women's right to work trumping the issue of tired kiddies? As it happened they did both identify economic forces compelling parents to increasingly sub-contract child-care.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> No way. LP is not an expert on having to leave your kids to go to work. Who on earth thought she was a good person to voice that opinions?
> 
> This will be the same LP that flies to and from wherever at the drop of a hat to chase articles or quaff champagne with her neoliberal friends like Molly. She's part of the economic system.



A useful part of it too, I don't think for a second that she has that much influence but most people must find the influence that she does have alienating. A fair few people must look at her and think that if she represents left-wing politics then they want no part in it.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 15, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Though I'm a little perplexed about why C4 News' production team put her up 'against' Bousted.



I guess she did make an interesting broader point, though one that was also covered by the other person as it happened.

Personally, moving to the topic of the debate, I don't see the obsession with starting school so early. Especially so for older teenagers, who are probably really shit at getting up early and could fit in more easily with a finishing time of 5pm or something. I suppose it is to give teachers time to do the rest of their work.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> No way. LP is not an expert on having to leave your kids to go to work. Who on earth thought she was a good person to voice that opinions?
> 
> This will be the same LP that flies to and from wherever at the drop of a hat to chase articles or quaff champagne with her neoliberal friends like Molly. She's part of the economic system.



Yeah, yeah and all that...but I'd be a little uncomfortable with the notion that being a parent is a necessary pre-condition to speak up for working parents. 

Like I said above, I wonder if C4 thought she might oppose the union's concern about kiddies' hours with a straight-forward 'right to access the labour market' line?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 15, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Personally, moving to the topic of the debate, I don't see the obsession with starting school so early. Especially so for older teenagers, who are probably really shit at getting up early and could fit in more easily with a finishing time of 5pm or something. I suppose it is to give teachers time to do the rest of their work.



The prime function of all under 16s schooling is facilitating adults going to work (not education as idealists might say, or even conditioning that some cynics would purport). That's why everyone gets their knickers in a twist about a teachers strike while hardly anyone notices if the uni / FE lecturers do.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's not fascist - it spiritualised multi-culturalism.



as Adolf once explained to to Heinrich Himmler


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


>



She's like an intersectional Andy Townsend


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Decolonisation sounds like a radical surgery for Crohn's.



Damn it, Jim, I'm a psychiatrist, not a proctologist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Fucking hell, Dan Hodges. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...s-why-youre-being-criticised-sarah-wollaston/



I wonder if Glenda ever wishes she'd aborted him?


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 16, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I forgot, she already got the prize for this, a successful journalism career despite never having been on the fucking sharp end of having to leave your kids to go to work to pay the bills.


Didn't she also win the George Orwell prize for counter revolutionary literature?, she will be handing lists of intersectionalists to M15 before the decade is out.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 16, 2014)

she was shortlisted for the Orwell Prize, for her blog, at a time incidentally when the only way for blogs to be entered into the Orwell Prize was for the blogger to nominate themselves


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2014)

George Eaton has a piece on the new statesman blog entitled UKIP's own privately educated clique in response to Farage's attack on the Media/tory private school network lash up.  As luck would have it, a new issue of his own mag comes out today - i wonder did he consider an audit? Anyway, going from the listed authors on the front cover we find:

Andrew Marr (Prep school then not one, but two private schools and on, of course, to oxbridge)
John Banville - (Irish, normal)
Will Self (Private school-->oxbridge)
Hilary Mantel (normal school)
Craig Raine (Private school-->oxbridge)
Ralph Steadman (normal, but talks like a private school type)
Tracey Thorn (normal)
Alexander McCall Smith (private school)
Adam Foulds (private school-->oxbridge)
Frances Wilson (private school-->oxbridge)
Karl Ove Knausgård (Scandinavian)
Baddiel (private school-->oxbridge)
Vince Cable (normal-->oxbridge-->murderer)
Laurie Penny (need i say? Private school-->oxbridge)
Mark Haddon (private school-->oxbridge)
Clive James (normal school, turned down private school scholarship-->oxbridge)
HG Wells (private school-->mars)
Stalin (Private seminary-->constructor of Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart)

Who's winning George?


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2014)

Stalin _and_ Ralph Steadman. Hopefully in some kind of Fear & Loathing type set up about the Ukraine?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2014)

Afraid not, disappointingly. Just an archive piece from the man of steel.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> i wonder did he consider an audit?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 16, 2014)

Ireland's main anarchist group, the WSM, or at least what's left of them, dive further into the new identity politics package. First it was intersectionality, now it's privilege theory. Here one of their main dudes produces a facile blogpost defending the concept. It's been doing the rounds of their members on Facebook, with only outsiders disagreeing (in so far as I've seen at least).

http://selfcertified.wordpress.com/...wledging-privilege-doesnt-make-you-the-enemy/

How is this stuff progressing inside AFED or SolFed, if at all?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Vince Cable (normal-->oxbridge-->murderer)
> HG Wells (private school-->mars)
> Stalin (Private seminary-->constructor of Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Ireland's main anarchist group, the WSM, or at least what's left of them, dive further into the new identity politics package. First it was intersectionality, now it's privilege theory. Here one of their main dudes produces a facile blogpost defending the concept. It's been doing the rounds of their members on Facebook, with only outsiders disagreeing (in so far as I've seen at least).
> 
> http://selfcertified.wordpress.com/...wledging-privilege-doesnt-make-you-the-enemy/
> 
> How is this stuff progressing inside AFED or SolFed, if at all?





> I hasten to add that the class analysis of some of these champions of labour extends as far as asking if the green stuff on your plate is mushy peas or avocado (I like both by the way).



And what the fuck is wrong with that? 

(Author clearly some kind of petty bourgeois deviationist)


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

Intersectionalists saying describing antisemitism as racism is racist because it is white people trying to say that the religious discrimination they experience is the same as what people of colour experience. And white people shouldn't say they experience racism. 

The person who said this is a middle class white women in her 50s


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm on the verge of deleting the lot of them because they're just fucking me off so much with their bullshit but they're the ones organizing the demos and everything else round here.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm on the verge of deleting the lot of them because they're just fucking me off so much with their bullshit but they're the ones organizing the demos and everything else round here.



Out of curiosity, what sort of groups are they in? They just seem so absurd.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Out of curiosity, what sort of groups are they in? They just seem so absurd.



I'll pm you


----------



## classicdish (Apr 16, 2014)

Why do you bother paying them any attention?

You can still go on the demos surely, without listening to the rest of their drivel?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Intersectionalists saying describing antisemitism as racism is racist because it is white people trying to say that the religious discrimination they experience is the same as what people of colour experience. And white people shouldn't say they experience racism.
> 
> The person who said this is a middle class white women in her 50s



I've often thought an intersectional analysis of the Rwandan genocide would be err... interesting.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I've often thought an intersectional analysis of the Rwandan genocide would be err... interesting.



I left the group because I was sick of reading their patronizing (and actually somewhat racist) drivel


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I left the group because I was sick of reading their patronizing (and actually somewhat racist) drivel



Anyone who genuinely thinks antisemitism isn't a form of racism is an historical illiterate and fuckwit who shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Anyone who genuinely thinks antisemitism isn't a form of racism is an historical illiterate and fuckwit who shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.



I know, they were saying that it was just white people trying to compare what religious discrimination they have experienced to the experience of people of colour and as white people they don't experience the oppression they do therefore its racist. 

I didn't comment because I had work to do but they are in a pathetic pissing contest to prove who is the most intersectional and it is pathetic and actually what they were saying was very insulting.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I know, they were saying that it was just white people trying to compare what religious discrimination they have experienced to the experience of people of colour and as white people they don't experience the oppression they do therefore its racist.
> 
> I didn't comment because I had work to do but they are in a pathetic pissing contest to prove who is the most intersectional and it is pathetic and actually what they were saying was very insulting.



Do these people genuinely think antisemitism is religious persecution with no racial element to it whatsoever? I can't understand how anyone who claims to take the subject seriously could possibly think that.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I know, they were saying that it was just white people trying to compare what religious discrimination they have experienced to the experience of people of colour and as white people they don't experience the oppression they do therefore its racist.
> 
> I didn't comment because I had work to do but they are in a pathetic pissing contest to prove who is the most intersectional and it is pathetic and actually what they were saying was very insulting.



And actually I really don't like saying that everything is racist because I don't like that way of arguing I think that if an argument is wrong you can say it is without necessarily finding any racism but in this case they don't fucking realize how privileged they are and they are using it to shut people up and rather than saying that it is 'the voice of' [insert ethnic group here] that's important the way I have seen them treat people of any ethnicity who disagree with them their voice is only important if they agree, and they think they have got over all their privilege but they are using these views to shut people up and haven't really challenged their own racism etc at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Do these people genuinely think antisemitism is religious persecution with no racial element to it whatsoever? I can't understand how anyone who claims to take the subject seriously could possibly think that.



That is what they were saying and that it was racist for a white man to say that it is because there are Jewish people of different ethnicities


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That is what they were saying and that it was racist for a white man to say that it is because there are Jewish people of different ethnicities



For fuck's sake. Hitler obviously wasn't a proper antisemite then.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

My favourite is when they know that they have fucked up (whether on their own terms or in reality) and rather than actually acknowledging that they fucked up and feeling embarrassed they use it as a way to prove how moral they are through ritualistically acknowledging that their own failings. It's all a bit Opus Dei.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 16, 2014)

The logic is as follows:

1) There is a reasonable argument that Jewish people in Britain in 2014 are not a systematically racially oppressed group.

2) Racism is not simply racial prejudice but such prejudice in a context of systemic oppression.

3) Members of groups who are not subject to racism (by that definition) who claim to suffer it are thereby diminishing the real racism etc etc.

Each of those claims is contestable, but no stage of the argument is plainly irrational in its own terms. What it does tend to reveal is that these arguments have been picked up from present day America and are being treated as geographically and temporally universal. So those who are "white" as understood in the US in 2014 cannot be racially oppressed. There is actually an interesting discussion to be had about how / when British Jews and Irish immigrants ceased to be racially oppressed in a systemic way, or about how anti-traveller or anti Eastern European prejudices operate at the moment. But not with these people.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

Nigel Irritable I never see them mention travellers or Polish people, I think they think Polish immigrants also benefit from 'white privilege'

I think you are right about Jewish people in the UK but I would say that it doesn't happen on a wide scale (although in my own experience its a lot more common than people think, something like 4 out of 10 Jewish people have experienced some form of it the last year etc) but in terms of access to employment etc you are probably right.

I think their argument is that its not racism because you can't tell just by looking at someone?

They would probably say the same thing about Polish people, apparently EVERYONE that is white benefits from 'white privilege'


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> My favourite is when they know that they have fucked up (whether on their own terms or in reality) and rather than actually acknowledging that they fucked up and feeling embarrassed they use it as a way to prove how moral they are through ritualistically acknowledging that their own failings. It's all a bit Opus Dei.




weather underground/cmrd bala


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> My favourite is when they know that they have fucked up (whether on their own terms or in reality) and rather than actually acknowledging that they fucked up and feeling embarrassed they use it as a way to prove how moral they are through ritualistically acknowledging that their own failings. It's all a bit Opus Dei.



I [insert bad thing here in 1984/show trial style confession style]. I am very sorry, that isn't OK.

(That is not/isn't OK is another of their catch phrases I've noticed - I think it's their way of saying 'I acted the cunt, sorry')


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I [insert bad thing here in 1984/show trial style confession style]. I am very sorry, that isn't OK.
> 
> (That is not/isn't OK is another of their catch phrases I've noticed - I think it's their way of saying 'I acted the cunt, sorry')



That's not real solidarity folks


----------



## tim (Apr 16, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'm at Victoria now getting a burger can't see any homeless people to share it with???




You probably have an intimidating aura of privilege. Laura on the other hand indeed on both hands has the stigmata that have been brought on by the Christlike persecution she has suffered.The patronisable poor know a real saint when they see one.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2014)

its either the aura of privilege, or hep C.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's not real solidarity folks




poor allyship


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> poor allyship



  

I hate all those cringey made up terms !!! 

Speak like humans ffs!


----------



## co-op (Apr 16, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> What it does tend to reveal is that these arguments have been picked up from present day America and are being treated as geographically and temporally universal.



This is the thing that often strikes me, it's unconsciously incredibly arrogant and - ironically - ideologically imperialist. I think I have already mentioned on here something that I heard personally way back in the 90s when a man at a meeting in Brixton (but who was from a small, more-or-less all-white town up north) starting going on about "African-Americans" much to everyone's confusion, until it became clear he was trying to use the right word for black people in Britain, and was just using the most up-to-date word he'd heard.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I hate all those cringey made up terms !!!
> 
> Speak like humans ffs!



This is just typical gaslighting of PoCs, violating the safe space of allies calling out the MRA Left through their own lived experience of intersectional minority spaces so embrace the progressive stack and step back.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> This is just typical gaslighting of PoCs, violating the safe space of allies calling out the MRA Left through their own lived experience of intersectional minority spaces so embrace the progressive stack and step back.



I don't even understand that


----------



## weepiper (Apr 16, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm on the verge of deleting the lot of them because they're just fucking me off so much with their bullshit but they're the ones organizing the demos and everything else round here.



sack em off frogs. Organise stuff yourself. You don't need these oppression-vampires.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 16, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Ireland's main anarchist group, the WSM, or at least what's left of them, dive further into the new identity politics package. First it was intersectionality, now it's privilege theory. Here one of their main dudes produces a facile blogpost defending the concept. It's been doing the rounds of their members on Facebook, with only outsiders disagreeing (in so far as I've seen at least).
> 
> http://selfcertified.wordpress.com/...wledging-privilege-doesnt-make-you-the-enemy/
> 
> How is this stuff progressing inside AFED or SolFed, if at all?


So what actually do you not like about this article?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> This is just typical gaslighting of PoCs, violating the safe space of allies calling out the MRA Left through their own lived experience of intersectional minority spaces so embrace the progressive stack and step back.




for some reason whenever I think of the progressive stack I am siderailed by thinking about Giant Haystacks, the big wrestler from the dark pre-WWF era of british wrestling


----------



## rekil (Apr 16, 2014)

Progressive Giant Haystacks would be an interesting wrasslin persona.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2014)

His entrance music would be Braggs 'sexuality'


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

He wouldn't fight anyone, he would just get all his allies on twitter to tweet the rival wrestlers' twitter accounts and guilt them out of the ring


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2014)

weepiper said:


> sack em off frogs. Organise stuff yourself. You don't need these oppression-vampires.



A lot of them seem to think that criticism of them is the same thing as racism.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 16, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> So what actually do you not like about this article?



There is no substance to it beyond the elision of "privileged", a colloquial way of saying "better off than" and privilege theory, a set of ideas that purports to explain how multiple forms of oppression operate and reproduce themselves. 

The idea that some working class people experience various forms of oppression that others do not is a statement of the bleeding obvious and not something anyone argues against. Understanding that in no way implies accepting the sometimes implied, sometimes explicit theoretical explanations for the existence and functioning of or methods of dealing with those oppressions which form privilege theory. That has to be argued out not simply stated. The article doesn't do so, whether because the distinction has been missed or as a rhetorical device.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 16, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> There is no substance to it beyond the elision of "privileged", a colloquial way of saying "better off than" and privilege theory, a set of ideas that purports to explain how multiple forms of oppression operate and reproduce themselves.
> 
> The idea that some working class people experience various forms of oppression that others do not is a statement of the bleeding obvious and not something anyone argues against. Understanding that in no way implies accepting the sometimes implied, sometimes explicit theoretical explanations for the existence and functioning of or methods of dealing with those oppressions which form privilege theory. That has to be argued out not simply stated. The article doesn't do so, whether because the distinction has been missed or as a rhetorical device.


So what is wrong with privilege theory?

I ask because I have read through the threads on intersectionality etc and I have seen plenty of dismissive comments but not really any good explanation of why it's problematic.

As far as I can tell all it purports to say is that if we, for example, had common ownership and no class inequality, we would still need to guard against other forms of discrimination manifesting themselves.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> So what is wrong with privilege theory?
> 
> I ask because I have read through the threads on intersectionality etc and I have seen plenty of dismissive comments but not really any good explanation of why it's problematic.
> 
> As far as I can tell all it purports to say is that if we, for example, had common ownership and no class inequality, we would still need to guard against other forms of discrimination manifesting themselves.



That's not all it says tho is it? It explicitly relegates class, not being able to pay bills etc, to an 'identity'


----------



## BigTom (Apr 17, 2014)

Also has the tendency to fall into a similar trap to utilitarianism of thinking you can measure oppression and weigh off one person's oppression against another, often it seems to decide who is right in an argument.
Being connected to liberalism of course all oppression/identities are equal and it's just how many you can claim.


----------



## rekil (Apr 17, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> has la crabapple displayed any of her own daubs?


How appropriate that Occupy's greatest artist does not know the difference between a squid and an octopus.


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> How appropriate that Occupy's greatest artist does not know the difference between a squid and an octopus.
> 
> View attachment 52294



Depections of octopuses representing bankers, financiers etc are often seen as anti-semitic.

I suspect MC drew the picture with that subconciously in mind (or maybe the image had been suggested by some of her Occupy chums...), then realised what she'd done and wrote squid instead because she couldn't be bothered to re-draw with a proper squid (and TBF, it is a jolly good pic of an octopus, especially the way it's raising its eyebrows in a threatening manner).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Didn't she also win the George Orwell prize for counter revolutionary literature?, she will be handing lists of intersectionalists to M15 before the decade is out.



Given the narrow limits of LP's convictions, and her proven lack of courage in pursuing those convictions (most of us remember the "I'm not leaving my room to check on the Occupy Wall Street protests, in case I get hit by a copper" tweet), I wouldn't put it past her, and sooner rather than later.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

killer b said:


> Stalin _and_ Ralph Steadman. Hopefully in some kind of Fear & Loathing type set up about the Ukraine?



Given how much Uncle Joe hated his birthplace, more likely "Fear and Loathing in the Caucasus".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Intersectionalists saying describing antisemitism as racism is racist because it is white people trying to say that the religious discrimination they experience is the same as what people of colour experience. And white people shouldn't say they experience racism.
> 
> The person who said this is a middle class white women in her 50s



Jews in the west were mostly not really considered "white" until much the same time as the Irish were.  They certainly (as with the Irish) didn't get to exercise "white privilege".
I think that your interlocutor may be either historically-ignorant or (more likely) a complete and utter fuckwit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I've often thought an intersectional analysis of the Rwandan genocide would be err... interesting.



As well as revealing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Anyone who genuinely thinks antisemitism isn't a form of racism is an historical illiterate and fuckwit who shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.



Except perhaps a psychotherapist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Do these people genuinely think antisemitism is religious persecution with no racial element to it whatsoever? I can't understand how anyone who claims to take the subject seriously could possibly think that.



Their lives would have to have pretty much avoided "intersecting" with anyone from a "white" minority to be this ignorant.  Most of us, within living memory, can recall Irish immigrant communities being treated as poorly as BME communities, with much of that based on their Catholicism.
Perhaps these people are middle-class mono-cultural types whose "experience" of others doesn't extend very far, ignorant as the day is long?


----------



## rekil (Apr 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> Depections of octopuses representing bankers, financiers etc are often seen as anti-semitic.
> 
> I suspect MC drew the picture with that subconciously in mind (or maybe the image had been suggested by some of her Occupy chums...), then realised what she'd done and wrote squid instead because she couldn't be bothered to re-draw with a proper squid (and TBF, it is a jolly good pic of an octopus, especially the way it's raising its eyebrows in a threatening manner).


She's at least part jewish afaik. She nicked it off her rolling stone chum Matt Taibbi, a prep school, private liberal arts college (Bard College - $60k a year!) dude. On top of everything else, it's a stupid trope because vampire squids are harmless 1 foot long deep sea things that live off prawns.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2014)

Oppressed prawns


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> So what is wrong with privilege theory?
> 
> I ask because I have read through the threads on intersectionality etc and I have seen plenty of dismissive comments but not really any good explanation of why it's problematic.
> 
> As far as I can tell all it purports to say is that if we, for example, had common ownership and no class inequality, we would still need to guard against other forms of discrimination manifesting themselves.



In the way privilege theory is used by the majority of its' "commentariat" proponents, it addresses complex socio-cultural situations and developments with what are effectively simplistic binary oppositions - black=oppressed, white=privileged, and so forth.  There's little nuance or acceptance that nothing is quite as simple as binary oppositions lead you (them) to believe.

It's really, in this incarnation, not about guarding against discrimination (many people, regardless of ethnicity, skin colour etc do that anyway, as part of how they act within society), it's more about playing categorisation games, and "allying" yourself to people you perceive to be non-privileged.  If it were purely about theory, and how theory could inform a wider social understanding of the gradiated asymmetry of privilege, I'd be all for it.  Unfortunately, it isn't currently, it's about "privilege theory" as a tool used by an elite to neutralise arguments that they don't interpellate/identify with, hence the virtual absence of class arguments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> My favourite is when they know that they have fucked up (whether on their own terms or in reality) and rather than actually acknowledging that they fucked up and feeling embarrassed they use it as a way to prove how moral they are through ritualistically acknowledging that their own failings. It's all a bit Opus Dei.



Possibly without the cilice, though.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 17, 2014)

cesare said:


> Oppressed prawns


----------



## rekil (Apr 17, 2014)

cesare said:


> Oppressed prawns


I have a crap prawn based anecdote. To cut a shit story short, an Irish patrol on UN duty in the Lebanon is being intimidated by an IDF helicopter which is shooting both sides of the road, so one of the troops stands up, sticks his thumbs in his straps and goes "at the end of the day, we're all just prawns".

.


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> I have a crap prawn based anecdote. To cut a shit story short, an Irish patrol on UN duty in the Lebanon is being intimidated by an IDF helicopter which is shooting both sides of the road, so one of the troops stands up, sticks his thumbs in his straps and goes "at the end of the day, we're all just prawns".
> 
> .


When me missus was been laid off on a community project in Limerick herself and the other women were meeting the management over their redundancies and one of the infuriated women shouted at the management , " your offering us mittens , how are we supposed to get by on that, it's just bloody mittens" 
Me missus although equally angry, had to cover her mouth and try not to burst her hole laughin


----------



## captainmission (Apr 17, 2014)

I think i've found a new favourite intersectionalist



> *DarkMatter* ‏@DarkMatterRage  Apr 13
> also we can't forget as @queerthunder reminds us that the 'closet' metaphor is about anti-blackness and the colonial anxiety of the unknown





> *Malcolm Shanks* ‏@queerthunder  Apr 14
> It's able-ist because supposedly sight=citizenship. It's anti-black bc black=unknown and both are bad. @Traveller_23 @DarkMatterRage



e2a Malcolm Shanks graduate of woodberry forest boarding school (a steal at $48,500 a year) and brown university.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm on the verge of deleting the lot of them because they're just fucking me off so much with their bullshit but they're the ones organizing the demos and everything else round here.



I wouldn't go on demos organised by people like this.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2014)

chilango said:


> I wouldn't go on demos organised by people like this.



I know, I haven't been, not in ages.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2014)

chilango said:


> I wouldn't go on demos organised by people like this.



Dunno what the alternative is, sit around ranting on here though.  which is what I usually do. 

I want to get back into political stuff I really do but I don't feel able to.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2014)

Anything - demos or otherwise - those people organised would simply be demonstrations (in both senses) of _affective self-valorisation. _The wankers. 

They'd get eaten alive in the real world.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Dunno what the alternative is, sit around ranting on here though.  which is what I usually do.
> 
> I want to get back into political stuff I really do but I don't feel able to.


Didn't you used to be in an SP branch? There must be some non-fruitloops doing something locally?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2014)

I have no words
http://seymourvscyrus.tumblr.com


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Didn't you used to be in an SP branch? There must be some non-fruitloops doing something locally?



There are, the SP is pretty much non existent where I am (branch meetings are an hour from here by bus)  

There must be other people though.


----------



## rekil (Apr 17, 2014)

captainmission said:


> e2a Malcolm Shanks graduate of woodberry forest boarding school (a steal at $48,500 a year) and brown university.


 

I fucking love looking up these places. Have a look at their promo vid. See how they make sure the only 2 or 3 black lads in the school are in every shot.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 17, 2014)

I wonder if they teach ethical personal brand building at Woodberry Forest Boarding School like they do at Laurie Penny's private school.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I wonder if they teach ethical personal brand building at Woodberry Forest Boarding School like they do at Laurie Penny's private school.



Those private American boarding schools are modelled on the UK system except are probably better equipped. 

My school didn't look like that. My university didn't either....


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2014)

Holy frig - look at the notable alumni of that school - apart from the Porky's bloke, fucking hell. That's some serious firepower.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2014)

Coming out of the closet is anti black wtf?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Holy frig - look at the notable alumni of that school - apart from the Porky's bloke, fucking hell. That's some serious firepower.



Y'see is it any wonder people end forming complicated conspiracy-theories about skull and bones or bilderberg when they're confronted by a ruling class as rigid and clear as that list there! How exclusive it is, how such a small number of people can exert such a wide influence, how few people fill so many top jobs, the brazenness of it too. I've always tried to be skeptical of things like C Wright Mills power elite (with all it's hints of "400 families running everything") because it's a bit conspiracist but when you see a list like that it's tempting.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2014)

I woder what his parents think about him wasting that expensive education on being a twitter pinko and activist type? Like Lorelai Gilmore with confused politics instead of pregnancy.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 17, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I woder what his parents think about him wasting that expensive education on being a twitter pinko and activist type? Like Lorelai Gilmore with confused politics instead of pregnancy.



the ruling class needs to have some of its own infiltrated within the working class, to provide guidance and leadership. It is what they were trained for.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2014)

[side issue: the class politics of Gilmore Girls are interesting and unusually well developed, but they centrally deal with the interaction between the petit bourgeoisie and the haute bourgeoisie. The working class is not central at all]


----------



## fogbat (Apr 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> Depections of octopuses representing bankers, financiers etc are often seen as anti-semitic.
> 
> I suspect MC drew the picture with that subconciously in mind (or maybe the image had been suggested by some of her Occupy chums...), then realised what she'd done and wrote squid instead because she couldn't be bothered to re-draw with a proper squid (and TBF, it is a jolly good pic of an octopus, especially the way it's raising its eyebrows in a threatening manner).



Vampire Squid was (I think) Goldman Sachs's nickname.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 17, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> [side issue: the class politics of Gilmore Girls are interesting and unusually well developed, but they centrally deal with the interaction between the petit bourgeoisie and the haute bourgeoisie. The working class is not central at all]


Luke was working class. I think part of the problems he and Lorelai had was because of their different classes - she may have started as a chambermaid but she wasn't working class.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> she may have started as a chambermaid but she wasn't working class.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Luke was working class. I think part of the problems he and Lorelai had was because of their different classes - she may have started as a chambermaid but she wasn't working class.




Luke was a small business owner and the son of a small business owner! His actual class position is broadly comparable to Loralai's when we meet them - she is the manager of a hotel and is aspiring to open her own smaller hotel.

I agree about the interpersonal problems though. The difference between them is that Loralai is still voluntarily slumming it, just as she was as a chambermaid - she's a scion of the haut bourgeoisie. She was raised with the expectations of that class and all it ever takes for her to carpet bomb her problems with money is to swallow her scruples and ring her parents. And indeed the first story arc of the show is about her doing that so that her daughter can have the class based advantages she herself rejected.

There are very few workers who are prominent as characters. Sookie the chef is a skilled worker, but she is on her way into business with Lorelai. She also marries a small business owner. Jess is technically, if I remember correctly, from a family with a small business, but he is consistently treated as being from the wrong side of the tracks and is himself en route to becoming a construction worker, so he may be the closest thing to a working class character of some significance. Even Michel the concierge is a son of privilege. The town is largely stocked with (almost all warm, good hearted) small business owners, while Lorelai's parents world consists of (cold, uptight, damaged, maid-abusing) ruling class types.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 17, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Luke was a small business owner and the son of a small business owner! His actual class position is broadly comparable to Loralai's when we meet them - she is the manager of a hotel and is aspiring to open her own smaller hotel.
> 
> I agree about the interpersonal problems though. The difference between them is that Loralai is still voluntarily slumming it, just as she was as a chambermaid - she's a scion of the haut bourgeoisie. She was raised with the expectations of that class and all it ever takes for her to carpet bomb her problems with money is to swallow her scruples and ring her parents. And indeed the first story arc of the show is about her doing that so that her daughter can have the class based advantages she herself rejected.
> 
> There are very few workers who are prominent as characters. Sookie the chef is a skilled worker, but she is on her way into business with Lorelai. She also marries a small business owner. Jess is technically, if I remember correctly, from a family with a small business, but he is consistently treated as being from the wrong side of the tracks and is himself en route to becoming a construction worker, so he may be the closest thing to a working class character of some significance. Even Michel the concierge is a son of privilege. The town is largely stocked with (almost all warm, good hearted) small business owners, while Lorelai's parents world consists of (cold, uptight, damaged, maid-abusing) ruling class types.



Jackson is a produce supplier - small business owner.
Mrs Kim owns an antique store - small business owner
Miss Patty and her dance studio - small business owner
Taylor - many small businesses! 

Dean leaves school after graduating and goes into carpentry - his relationship with Rory is probably even more class-based than Luke and Lorelai's! As is hers with Logan, him being from a super-privileged family.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Jackson is a produce supplier - small business owner.
> Mrs Kim owns an antique store - small business owner
> Miss Patty and her dance studio - small business owner
> Taylor - many small businesses!
> ...



Yep, it's a town of upstanding small property owners. Thats the central way in which class is treated. It's not about the exploitation of workers but about clashes between (bad) bourgeois social mores and (good) petit bourgeois ones,

And I got Dean and Jess mixed up above! It was Dean - a mother's dream for a first boyfriend, but not necessarily a daughter's - I was talking about. Actually both of them may qualify as working class. They were certainly both presented as being from "rougher" backgrounds - so Rory's sporadic taste for a bit of rough may be the main way in which the viewer encounters non-business owners.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 17, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yep, it's a town of upstanding small property owners. Thats the central way in which class is treated. It's not about the exploitation of workers but about clashes between (bad) bourgeois social mores and (good) petit bourgeois ones,
> 
> And I got Dean and Jess mixed up above! It was Dean - a mother's dream for a first boyfriend, but not necessarily a daughter's - I was talking about. Actually both of them may qualify as working class. They were certainly both presented as being from "rougher" backgrounds - so Rory's sporadic taste for a bit of rough may be the main way in which the viewer encounters non-business owners.


Jess ended up being in some kind of writers' collective/independent publisher, I think? On a par with small business owner.


----------



## tim (Apr 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> She's at least part jewish afaik. She nicked it off her rolling stone chum Matt Taibbi, a prep school, private liberal arts college (Bard College - $60k a year!) dude. On top of everything else, it's a stupid trope because vampire squids are harmless 1 foot long deep sea things that live off prawns.



Armless squid!


----------



## The Pale King (Apr 18, 2014)

Taibbi must have known full well the heritage of the imagery he was using - whenever I see tentacles appearing in political discourse, I can't help but think the words 'Bolshevik-Plutocratic plot' can't be too far behind.

Isn't it enough to excoriate Goldman Sachs? Without giving the reader this little frisson of antisemitic imagery?


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2014)

Nice to see radical politics node Novara giving struggling sisters of privately educated oxbridge media personalities a hand with burgeoning careers. 

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/04/dont-spend-it-all-at-once-7-things-wage-increases-cant-hide/


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 18, 2014)

LOL


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 18, 2014)

Not satire:

http://time.com/58743/cancelcolbert-activists-we-will-protest-this-until-it-ends/


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 18, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Vampire Squid was (I think) Goldman Sachs's nickname.


It turns out that a vampire squid has 8 tentacles like an octopus but they are webbed together:






So molly's drawing is definitely an octopus.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 18, 2014)

Wow. This piece on Twitter intersectionality, Suey Park, and the limitations of the medium is great:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arun-gupta/bitcoin-activism-how-mich_b_5169731.html


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Wow. This piece on Twitter intersectionality, Suey Park, and the limitations of the medium is great:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arun-gupta/bitcoin-activism-how-mich_b_5169731.html


I can't tell if I'm just totally out of touch or this doesnt make any sense at all.


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2014)

killer b said:


> I can't tell if I'm just totally out of touch or this doesnt make any sense at all.


Hashtag activism.   I'm glad I'm totally out of touch.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 18, 2014)

Essentially, this wave of intersectionality has created a wealth of ego-driven cliques that mirror the racism, colonialism and Orientalism they claim to hate by bifurcating groups along skin colour - they treat white people as a homogenised block without realising the irony of mirroring the oppression they oppose.   

Park, like Crabapple take radical positions but use it as a platform for personal brand-building online. However, Park's rhetoric is more likely to alienate people in the real world, especially those who might pay money to listen to some naive 23-year-old who probably read one book on critical race theory. 

Yes, racism exists across the fabric of our society, but the idea that Colbert was promoted to spite Park is utterly hilarious. In their narrow view of oppression there are other factors as to why he got the job.

Meaningful activism exists outside of social media, yes, there are obvious benefits for those who are disabled or lack the finances to attend regular meetings or protests. I view it more of a jumping off point. Often, in these sorts of imagined Twitter events of oppression, the usual voices gang up and play purity points with 'being a good ally.'

A load of self-important online bollocks. Despite the rhetoric, those who speak so loudly of oppression are those who will always speak from a position of wealth. Why do they never speak of class? Because many reaped the benefits of a private education and the wealth of lassez-faire capitalism. 

Their oppression is only convenient to a point.


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2014)

I watched that channel 4 Baghdad ballerina thing. Intersectionality twitterleft must fucking hate her for doing whitey shit.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It turns out that a vampire squid has 8 tentacles like an octopus but they are webbed together:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Seems a bit pointless having tentacles if they're all stuck together.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 18, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Seems a bit pointless having tentacles if they're all stuck together.


I think it's to help the web bit move better, a bit like the spokes on an umbrella.


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think it's to help the web bit move better, a bit like the spokes on an umbrella.


It lives in the pitch black depths feeding off tiny creatures so I assume it wouldn't be able to catch them without the web bit.

JUST LIKE THE YOU KNOW WHO


----------



## Greebo (Apr 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, am I the only one looking at that and seeing a similarity to a buttplug ?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Sorry, am I the only one looking at that and seeing a similarity to a buttplug ?


Now you've said it...


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

a vampire buttplug


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2014)

'Slacktivism' being used to describe things like avaaz petitions is 'ablist' apparently .. According to some blog posted by somebody


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'Slacktivism' being used to describe things like avaaz petitions is 'ablist' apparently .. According to some blog posted by somebody



I should imagine that virtually anything & everything in existence is wrong "a_*ccording to some blog posted by somebody"*_!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'Slacktivism' being used to describe things like avaaz petitions is 'ablist' apparently .. According to some blog posted by somebody


 
On the NCAFC facebook group I've seen a number of people arguing that encouraging people to come to a protest is ableist because it highlights the exclusion of people who are unable to come.

The same people also argued that talking about zombies was ableist.

I don't understand how they are able to survive on a day to day basis.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

its getting to the point where taking a shit will be considered exclusionary to people who are a bit backed up.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2014)

Hey, less of the survivalist and constipatalist hate.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2014)

How is talking about zombies ableist? And disabled people do come to protests, and there are any number of reasons why someone might not be able to which are nothing to do with disability.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

if zombies are anything, they arean anti-working class metaphor. Shuffling mindless consuming hordes who once out of control eat the intelligentsia (brainz) and destroy society.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2014)

How do these people survive in the real world?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How is talking about zombies ableist? And disabled people do come to protests, and there are any number of reasons why someone might not be able to which are nothing to do with disability.


In my case, for example, laziness. Although I do sometimes think of starting a campaign to get laziness recognised as a disability, but frankly I can't be arsed.


----------



## Bun (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How do these people survive in the real world?


Take your reality fascism elsewhere, Frogwoman! I'm calling you OUT!


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 19, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Essentially, this wave of intersectionality has created a wealth of ego-driven cliques that mirror the racism, colonialism and Orientalism they claim to hate by bifurcating groups along skin colour - they treat white people as a homogenised block without realising the irony of mirroring the oppression they oppose.
> 
> Park, like Crabapple take radical positions but use it as a platform for personal brand-building online. However, Park's rhetoric is more likely to alienate people in the real world, especially those who might pay money to listen to some naive 23-year-old who probably read one book on critical race theory.
> 
> ...



Yep, this.

There's a line in a VS Naipaul novel (I forget which one) that says that one can only sing sweet songs of the injustice of oppression when one expects and receives justice most of the time.

Oh, and it's never structural advantages, is it? It's always "luck" and "good choices", fitting the neoliberal outlook like a glove. Class distinction muddies the water and fucks with the grid of oppression, and we can't have that.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How is talking about zombies ableist? And disabled people do come to protests, and there are any number of reasons why someone might not be able to which are nothing to do with disability.





DotCommunist said:


> if zombies are anything, they arean anti-working class metaphor. Shuffling mindless consuming hordes who once out of control eat the intelligentsia (brainz) and destroy society.



Personally if I was going for the wingnut _intersectionalista _angle on zombies I would go for cultural appropriation of Haitian folklore...


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How do these people survive in the real world?



Trust funds, I'm guessing, though I'm sure questioning that would in itself be some kind of oppression.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Personally if I was going for the wingnut _intersectionalista _angle on zombies I would go for cultural appropriation of Haitian folklore...




foklore? plenty of evidence to suggest that people had in the past been fed powerful brain damaging potions by shaman/witchdoctors and then used as zombie slaves. Your cultural imperialistic thinking again!back of the stack.


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How do these people survive in the real world?



They don't, do they?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 19, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I don't understand how they are able to survive on a day to day basis.



Easily - because after a couple of years of role-playing this sort of balloon debate politics, many of these people will settle in to their well-remunerated, class-destined management careers.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Easily - because after a couple of years of role-playing this sort of balloon debate politics, many of these people will settle in to their well-remunerated, class-destined management careers.


Yep, and they will take their managerial bossy stuff with them into the world of work. Oh what a boon for those under them. And there will be many.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 19, 2014)

Posh school > Oxbridge or Expensive Liberal Arts College > Career in the small incestuous world of the Liberal commentariat thanks to connections


----------



## Belushi (Apr 19, 2014)

It also explains the 'calling out' and demands to 'be an ally' - it's the kind of juvenile bollocks that you should grow out of once you leave school.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, and they will take their managerial bossy stuff with them into the world of work. Oh what a boon for those under them. And there will be many.





DaveCinzano said:


> Easily - because after a couple of years of role-playing this sort of balloon debate politics, many of these people will settle in to their well-remunerated, class-destined management careers.



So a lot of this intersectional stuff is learnt behaviour from mummy and daddy who work as managers? It would explain a lot, I put this down mostly to the sort of arrogance that comes with a private education.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, and they will take their managerial bossy stuff with them into the world of work. Oh what a boon for those under them. And there will be many.



I'M IN CHARGE HERE!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

No no no, with your mixed relationships, sports clubs, education work and leisure and easy non-racist life _you're doing it all wrong!_


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'M IN CHARGE HERE!


*shivers down the spine*


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Posh school > Oxbridge or Expensive Liberal Arts College > Career in the small incestuous world of the Liberal commentariat thanks to connections




or a damascene volte-face into Mel Philips


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

I do think they're people outside of society desperately trying to _catch up with the norms_ via massive guilt projection.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> or a damascene volte-face into Mel Philips



I think it's only a matter of time before this happens a lot here. The Suey Park/Michelle Malkin thing is so obviously something that could happen here, you can already see it with the likes of Crabapple commenting on Venezuela.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 19, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'M IN CHARGE HERE!


I will admit to have just spent precious minutes searching for _that_ Clare Solomon video, even though she doesn't quite fit the profile


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> or a damascene volte-face into Mel Philips


See, i don't think that will happen - it takes commitment to have mel phillips type views whereas to these people their politics is lightly worn. Penny's superficiality inures her from turning into Phillips.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> See i don't thin that will happen - it takes commitment to mel phillips type views whereas to these people their politics is lightly worn. Penny's superficiality inures her from turning into Phillips.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

She's more Deborah Mitford than Nancy Mitford.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

on the 'slacktavism is an ableist term' its quite clearly a neologism/portmanteau/made up word in which the first part of the term comes from 'slacker'- linguistically on about the whole 'slacker culture' thing in the US indie scene that was talked about in terms of being a real 'thing', around Nirvana/Kevin Smith/Clerks/Seattle scene times.

At least thats how I read it.

and theres the rub. You end up on an etymology hunt that bears no relevance to the point in hand just to defend yourself agains being IDS


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 19, 2014)

All this online intersectionality leads us to this:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/aasiddiqi/do-you-benefit-from-white-supremacy

Ugh.


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The same people also argued that talking about zombies was ableist.


Need screenies please.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2014)

Taibbi crosses picket lines btw.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Taibbi crosses picket lines btw.


this is the first time i have ever heard of him and presents him in a poor light.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



That post implies you can't be a feminist and like clothes & makeup, which is plain wrong.

It also plays into feminists being 'hellwraiths' which is wrong.

ffs.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2014)

erm... Isn't that sarcasm?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2014)

killer b said:


> erm... Isn't that sarcasm?


Difficult to tell with LP.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2014)

It really isnt.


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2014)

Time for this atrocity again. This is how LP sees herself. No foolin'.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That post implies you can't be a feminist and like clothes & makeup, which is plain wrong.
> 
> It also plays into feminists being 'hellwraiths' which is wrong.
> 
> ffs.



I never wear makeup, don't like it, except very occasionally, I don't often shave my legs although that's more out of laziness than a feminist principle


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> 'slacker'- linguistically on about the whole 'slacker culture' thing in the US indie scene that was talked about in terms of being a real 'thing', around Nirvana/Kevin Smith/Clerks/Seattle scene times.



As illustrated by Superchunk's rather wonderful tune "Slack Motherfucker"


or the not quite so wonderful, but still illustrative period piece "Slacker"


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Taibbi crosses picket lines btw.



he always was a bit shite


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2014)

chilango said:


> As illustrated by Superchunk's rather wonderful tune "Slack Motherfucker"



Where's Laura?  (Our Laura not msm and twitter personality Laura)


Edit: Aww. " In 2013 she announced that she would no longer be touring with the band due to her worsening hyperacusis."


----------



## co-op (Apr 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I do think they're people outside of society desperately trying to _catch up with the norms_ via massive guilt projection.



I see loads of projection in this stuff.

There's one of those caption photos of a (non-white) Oxbridge student who has been told "you must have got here on a positive discrimination policy" which catches the projection thing perfectly I think. On one level it's just a standard bit of upper-class racism born of social isolation and awkwardness (and arrogance of course).

But whoever said that must have known on some level (maybe not even the conscious one) that - like most Oxbridge students - they had inherited their _own_ place from their parents social rank and are correspondingly keen to find equivalent inheritance in others, and where they can't, they just project wildly in all directions. 

This also feeds back into their own vanity of course since the idea that they have merely inherited their Oxbridge places undermines their own sense of how wonderful they are for having come out on top, cleverer than their siblings & non-Oxbridge peers etc 

"Look! Over there! This one didn't get in on merit!" (NOT LIKE ME)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 19, 2014)

co-op said:


> I see loads of projection in this stuff.
> 
> There's one of those caption photos of a (non-white) Oxbridge student who has been told "you must have got here on a positive discrimination policy" which catches the projection thing perfectly I think. On one level it's just a standard bit of upper-class racism born of social isolation and awkwardness (and arrogance of course).
> 
> ...



One wonders where, exactly, the _smartest girl in a very smart school_ might fit into such an imaginary scenario.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2014)

percentages. That enormous bellend Frank Turner claims up on the 'scholarship boy' one because he was in eton on reduced fees- reduced by 15% iirc. So still more than me or my parents ever earn in a year. While typing this I'm recalling that Eton of all places has charitable status and thats annoying me.


I got tried out at swanbourne by my pushy ma- bronze result on the tests. 75% fees before you've paid for uniform kit meals or a school trip. So state school anyway, and I did ok there. Glad I failed that one tbf, I'm arrogant enough as it is. Private would have sent me into the stratosphere.



> But whoever said that must have known on some level (maybe not even the conscious one) that - like most Oxbridge students - they had inherited their _own_ place from their parents social rank and are correspondingly keen to find equivalent inheritance in others, and where they can't, they just project wildly in all directions.




see thats a bit psychoanalytical and I'm not sure I agree- for instance the intersectionalist massif having online presence, being prevalent in some voluble forms of media discourse on the left. The student union/s etc. *prepare for wavey hands* couldn't it be how radicalism has been radicalised? splintered not in to groups but the lense of any struggle through me alone?


----------



## muscovyduck (Apr 19, 2014)

Slactivism is an offensive word all around, it's an insult. That's the point of it.  It's the way it's used that might make someone ableist. For example, accusing someone with ME, epilepsy, etc of being a slactivist is a big no no.

Not that I expect any of these people to understand that.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 19, 2014)

'Slacker' bands were in some ways characterised by wearing the clothes of revolutionaries (or hippies) without any particular political substance - although some bands were born from DIY punk roots, but it never translated into lyrical activism. One phrase for the more mainstream of these bands was 'rage against nothing'. CTs at the time (possibly from something Jello Biafra said?) maintained that 'The Man' pushed grunge as a means to distract white youth from gangster rap, which was considered more dangerous and subversive (what happened there then?).

So I can kind of see how 'slacktivism' could be related. My interpretation is that it refers to ineffectual bedroom protesting - starting a Facebook group to 'overthrow Assad' and pointless shit like that, the idea that a few clicks will change the world and that in having this 'power' you are meaningfully challenging the world.


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> 'Slacker' bands were in some ways characterised by wearing the clothes of revolutionaries (or hippies) without any particular political substance - although some bands were born from DIY punk roots, but it never translated into lyrical activism. One phrase for the more mainstream of these bands was 'rage against nothing'. CTs at the time (possibly from something Jello Biafra said?) maintained that 'The Man' pushed grunge as a means to distract white youth from gangster rap, which was considered more dangerous and subversive (what happened there then?).
> 
> So I can kind of see how 'slacktivism' could be related. My interpretation is that it refers to ineffectual bedroom protesting - starting a Facebook group to 'overthrow Assad' and pointless shit like that, the idea that a few clicks will change the world and that in having this 'power' you are meaningfully challenging the world.


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2014)

Crabapple enjoying herself in istanbul.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 20, 2014)

Sycophantic ally purity point scoring.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That post implies you can't be a feminist and like clothes & makeup, which is plain wrong.
> 
> It also plays into feminists being 'hellwraiths' which is wrong.
> 
> ffs.



It's also utterly wrong on the descriptive level. LP is neither "terrifying" or a "hellwraith".  "Mildly annoying" and "boringly self-righteous" would be far more accurate descriptions.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Sycophantic ally purity point scoring.





more struggle tourism eh. If troubles so beautiful then any large town high street around 11.15 pm should do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> more struggle tourism eh. If troubles so beautiful then any large town high street around 11.15 pm should do.


yeh used to be able to set your watch by the weekend fights by the auld coach stop in north finchley


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 20, 2014)

Jesus Christ. Monetise Manning.


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> more struggle tourism eh. If troubles so beautiful then any large town high street around 11.15 pm should do.


Trouble isn't so beautiful if you're the one cleaning up the blood and mess afterwards. Or getting interviewed by the coppers about the murder of a 90 year old man. She's been at them futurists again.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 20, 2014)

Just in case she deletes it. "I'm aware that it's not just women who get pregnant and I respect that. But talking about women and pregnancy matters, because >>"


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2014)

There's a bit of context surrounding that tweet to be fair:


----------



## JHE (Apr 20, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Just in case she deletes it. "I'm aware that it's not just women who get pregnant and I respect that. But talking about women and pregnancy matters, because >>"



She's right, of course.  Female camels, mice, hedgehogs and pigs, among many other creatures, also get pregnant.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 20, 2014)

'QUILTBAG people'?


----------



## JHE (Apr 20, 2014)

weepiper said:


> 'QUILTBAG people'?



Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender/Transsexual, Bisexual, Allied/Asexual, Gay/Genderqueer, apparently


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2014)

If nothing else, LP's bullshit has alerted me to this bit of holy shitness.


> A team of Chinese surgeons has successfully operated on a two-year-old boy, who was 'pregnant' with his parasitic twin.
> 
> The toddler, Xiao Feng , from Huaxi, was admitted to hospital with an abnormally large stomach and severe breathing difficulties. Various medical tests including X-Rays and MRI scans showed that Feng's parasitic twin was growing inside his stomach. The boy had absorbed his twin pair in utero.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 20, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Just in case she deletes it. "I'm aware that it's not just women who get pregnant and I respect that.


----------



## rekil (Apr 21, 2014)

Yet another reason why private schools should be nuked and nuked and nuked until there's nothing left but a great big brat shaped crater of victory.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 21, 2014)

I thought posh people only said darling decades ago...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Yet another reason why private schools should be nuked and nuked and nuked until there's nothing left but a great big brat shaped crater of victory.




Was?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 21, 2014)

Bakunin said:


>





SpineyNorman said:


> Was?



OK, are people on this thread reading my mind? As these are the exact reactions I had.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2014)

emanymton said:


> OK, are people on this thread reading my mind? As these are the exact reactions I had.


You must be part of the monothought clique.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2014)

http://bilgewatch.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/the-current-nonsense-about-religion/


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2014)

My god, how many sites do you have? Not so sure promoting the 'Jews killed jesus myth' is very useful. Nor your conflation of green with Green Party for that matter.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> My god, how many sites do you have? Not so sure promoting the 'Jews killed jesus myth' is very useful. Not your conflation of green with Green Party for that matter.



Nail the buggers up, it's the only language they understand.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 22, 2014)

Penny Red's apology to da students....

Whilst I find myself agreeing with some of the sentiments...


> ....they should go to university for the love of learning, because they were talented and brilliant and longed to study....If I could go back in time and speak to the pupils I mentored in 2006, I'd still tell them to go out and get the best education they can – not because it'll get them a good job, but because reading, learning and expanding your horizons is necessary if you're going to understand what's being done to the world around you, and change your collective circumstances.



...a 'socialist' commentator worrying about social mobility? How does that stack up?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2014)

Isn't it odd that she was ever so silent on the graduate premium - the amount a graduate earns above a non-graduate - when it was higher and only writes about it when it declines? She starts to care when inequality lessens. Interesting that despite the sheen of love of education the thing she chooses to base the article around is the small decline in graduate premium. Money, not love of learning.

And for the record, the graduate premium remains at around 7 grand per year - we're talking near 1/4 million quid over a working lifetime - but given we know lots of graduates receive no such premium we're really talking about part of the graduate population receiving even more than that - not to mention working less, at a slower rate, in better conditions and retiring earlier.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 22, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Penny Red's apology to da students....
> 
> Whilst I find myself agreeing with some of the sentiments...
> 
> ...





> I have an apology to make. Some years ago, when I was a student, I worked as a mentor and teacher for the Aimhigher programme, which was designed to encourage gifted pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds to apply to university. In return for room, board and sandwich money I spent my days giving lectures about exciting books, *and my nights trying to find where my eager pupils had stashed their vodka.*



So a privately educated uni student was begging for (or stealing?) vodka from school aged pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds? Class system in action right there..


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2014)

Room and board _and sandwich _money - the latter commonly known as _pay_.

Tbh, if there was anything that would be put me off university it's a load of penny's telling me how wonderful it is and getting paid for it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So a privately educated uni student was begging for (or stealing?) vodka from school aged pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds? Class system in action right there..


no schoolie has a stolichnya stash. Its hyperbole. or, lies.


stash of white lightening maybe


----------



## J Ed (Apr 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> no schoolie has a stolichnya stash. Its hyperbole. or, lies.



I don't know whether it's better whether it's a lie or not. What a weird world she inhabits to either do it or to think it would be a good thing to lie about.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 22, 2014)




----------



## captainmission (Apr 22, 2014)

An okish, if not particularly insightful piece by owen jones. But why the pretense that it's an incredibly tough piece to write? I'd presume half competent hack could knock out a piece like this in less than an hour. And any gay man that's capable even a basic degree of self reflection has thought about issues of their masculinity. Is it just a columnist aggrandising their essentially rather easy job? Or the intersectionalist idea that self reflection is a taxing process of public self flagellation rather than an ordinary part of exisitance?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 22, 2014)

captainmission said:


> An okish, if not particularly insightful piece by owen jones. But why the pretense that it's an incredibly tough piece to write? I'd presume half competent hack could knock out a piece like this in less than an hour. And any gay man that's capable even a basic degree of self reflection has thought about issues of their masculinity. Is it just a columnist aggrandising their essentially rather easy job? Or the intersectionalist idea that self reflection is a taxing process of public self flagellation rather than an ordinary part of exisitance?



My guess would be he found it tough because he simply couldn't understand the viewpoint he was trying to write from.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's not all it says tho is it? It explicitly relegates class, not being able to pay bills etc, to an 'identity'


Is it though? Or is it saying that, even in an equal, classless society, sexism/homophobia/racism would still be problems and they need to be addressed now, because class equality alone will not deliver them?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 22, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> In the way privilege theory is used by the majority of its' "commentariat" proponents, it addresses complex socio-cultural situations and developments with what are effectively simplistic binary oppositions - black=oppressed, white=privileged, and so forth.  There's little nuance or acceptance that nothing is quite as simple as binary oppositions lead you (them) to believe.
> 
> It's really, in this incarnation, not about guarding against discrimination (many people, regardless of ethnicity, skin colour etc do that anyway, as part of how they act within society), it's more about playing categorisation games, and "allying" yourself to people you perceive to be non-privileged.  If it were purely about theory, and how theory could inform a wider social understanding of the gradiated asymmetry of privilege, I'd be all for it.  Unfortunately, it isn't currently, it's about "privilege theory" as a tool used by an elite to neutralise arguments that they don't interpellate/identify with, hence the virtual absence of class arguments.



But to turn that around, in the way socialism is used by the majority of its 'commentariat' proponents, it reduces complex situations to binary oppositions - rich=poor, capitalist=worker and so on. But we don't dismiss socialism on that basis, so what's the difference? What is solidarity if not allying?

Rather than trying to neutralise arguments, could it not be seen as trying to carve out a space to discuss things that, in the view of their proponents, have not been fully explored before? Maybe there is an absence of class arguments because they're being discussed elsewhere?

As far as I can tell they are taking the language of class and applying it to other social constructs. So why would they apply it back to class?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2014)

Wtf are you on about? They're using class privilege to cut out the non-poshoes and impose a restricted posho langauge on how oppositional politics plays out. It's their game.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Is it though? Or is it saying that, even in an equal, classless society, sexism/homophobia/racism would still be problems and they need to be addressed now, because class equality alone will not deliver them?



I don't think that anyone disputes this but this isn't how its used by the people on the thread who were discussing, Penny, crabapple etc 

I actually have some time for Cranshaw, bell hooks etc


----------



## captainmission (Apr 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> My guess would be he found it tough because he simply couldn't understand the viewpoint he was trying to write from.



Yeah, i suppose those checked shirts do scream straight acting


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Wtf are you on about? They're using class privilege to cut out the non-poshoes and impose a restricted posho langauge on how oppositional politics plays out. It's their game.



how, exactly?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> how, exactly?


By defining the terms of legitimate political debate around a series of injuries  - ones that the privileged suffer from as much as the rest of us. By turning debate around inequality from one of how inequality is produced and sustained into one of the effects of inequality hits one group (and it's always their fave token group of the week) and is designed to, by helping foster the central structuring idea of how the ruling class operates as just an identity.

*And by making people like you think that you have to ask people like me questions like this.*


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 22, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> But to turn that around, in the way socialism is used by the majority of its 'commentariat' proponents, it reduces complex situations to binary oppositions - rich=poor, capitalist=worker and so on. But we don't dismiss socialism on that basis, so what's the difference? What is solidarity if not allying?
> 
> Rather than trying to neutralise arguments, could it not be seen as trying to carve out a space to discuss things that, in the view of their proponents, have not been fully explored before? Maybe there is an absence of class arguments because they're being discussed elsewhere?
> 
> As far as I can tell they are taking the language of class and applying it to other social constructs. So why would they apply it back to class?



You are persistently confusing taking issues of oppression seriously with adopting the language, outlook, mores, theories and politics associated with the privilege / intersectionality / standpoint package. That is to say you are treating one particular set of theoretical approaches as if they are synonymous with the wider issues they seek to explain.

As long as you continue to do this, you will continue to be perplexed by the answers you get here. Perhaps if you were to cease assuming that those criticising social media privilege talk here are semi-mythical class-is-all-that-matters whippet-eating monsters, and start instead to assume that they object to the conversion of radical politics into a glorified scorecard determining who has to shut up in twitter arguments, you may make more progress.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 22, 2014)

The hashtag is a great social media fail for the New York police. However, Crabapple must remind everyone, not once, but twice that she was once arrested.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 22, 2014)

If you squint a bit you can enter an alternate reality where she is being arrested by the People's Militia for this


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2014)

taking oppression, racism, sexism etc seriously does not mean taking their views seriously and not taking then seriously does not mean you are some Ted Grant type dinosaur. There are other ways to view this stuff - in terms of the function things like racism play for capital in terms of dividing people, the ideological views and material interests of who want this stuff to continue etc, even various feminist views of rape culture etc and how sexism is structurally reinforced which is nothing to do with privilege theory


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


> If you squint a bit you can enter an alternate reality where she is being arrested by the People's Militia for this




whos house is that in the pic ?

eta

oh right its yer wan, didnt recognise

Shes not big into the old dusting i see from just over her shoulder. Thats like _been dead for a few years and never got round to it_ level dust


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 23, 2014)

JHE said:


> Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender/Transsexual, Bisexual, Allied/Asexual, Gay/Genderqueer, apparently



fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2014)

Also it really fucks me off that the only way they can seem to argue is by calling people racist etc and having been on the receiving end of various types of prejudice myself, having been sexually assaulted myself etc, I don't really like that based solely on the fact I don't agree with their stupid little philosophy. and they of course can say whatever the hell they want, weird sexism about women's hair and dress sense etc, provided they use the right buzzwords and seem to be a 'good ally'


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2014)

Calling women bitches for wearing an item of clothing, lecturing ethnic minorities on what is racism, being racist/homophobic themselves, nah all fine because they checked their privilege


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


> On the NCAFC facebook group I've seen a number of people arguing that encouraging people to come to a protest is ableist because it highlights the exclusion of people who are unable to come.
> 
> The same people also argued that talking about zombies was ableist.
> *
> I don't understand how they are able to survive on a day to day basis*.



if i ever take power thatll be sorted...read my lips.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 23, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> if i ever take power thatll be sorted...read my lips.



 *furiously signs 'ABLEIST!'*


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 23, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck



Casually Red, yesterday:


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 23, 2014)

you should see me today


----------



## co-op (Apr 23, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Is it though? Or is it saying that, even in an equal, classless society, sexism/homophobia/racism would still be problems and they need to be addressed now, because class equality alone will not deliver them?



We don't know what will still be problems in a society where power is distributed equally but there is passable evidence from history (and I think from most people's individual lives) that when economic hierarchies shrink or vanish (even temporarily) that most of the ism-issues also start to spontaneously lessen or even disappear. 

This isn't to say that the ism-issues don't need to be looked at consciously now (for obvious reasons), or to say that everything will magically be perfect in a future radically altered society. But it does suggest that to prioritise this stuff over economic and political power is - at best - tackling the symptoms not the disease and - at worst - what ba and others have pointed up so brilliantly on this thread, ie an intellectual-ideological power-grab by a small sub-set of the existing governing elite. It also very very clearly sets up a divide-and-rule strategy for that elite and is underwritten by a hyper-individualised obsession with individual identity and action rather than collective identity and action.


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2014)

Justine Tunney interview. It's packed with hits, but imo, the best bit starts at 40:30 mark where the caste system is discussed.



Spoiler


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2014)

can you precis the greatest hits for me?


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 23, 2014)

co-op said:


> We don't know what will still be problems in a society where power is distributed equally but there is passable evidence from history (and I think from most people's individual lives) that when economic hierarchies shrink or vanish (even temporarily) that most of the ism-issues also start to spontaneously lessen or even disappear.
> 
> This isn't to say that the ism-issues don't need to be looked at consciously now (for obvious reasons), or to say that everything will magically be perfect in a future radically altered society. But it does suggest that to prioritise this stuff over economic and political power is - at best - tackling the symptoms not the disease and - at worst - what ba and others have pointed up so brilliantly on this thread, ie an intellectual-ideological power-grab by a small sub-set of the existing governing elite. It also very very clearly sets up a divide-and-rule strategy for that elite and is underwritten by a hyper-individualised obsession with individual identity and action rather than collective identity and action.



very well put sir


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> can you precis the greatest hits for me?


India's caste system is great - the untouchables "aren't part" of it. 
Anarchists who break windows are degenerates who should be jailed.  
Google should build new cities without zoning boards, labour unions and bureacracy getting in the way - "better than Singapore".
Lots of shit about being a leader of occupy and demanding to know why nobody is doing anything now.
Something about steaks I *need* to check again. 

It's fucking painful. Salute to the interviewer who managed to keep it together.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 23, 2014)

Kill it with fire


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2014)

Herr Hitler (yes!) said pretty much the same thing at the Dusseldorf Industry Club in 1932.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2014)

he sounds like randist filth who should be impaled on a spike as an example to the others


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> he sounds like randist filth who should be impaled on a spike as an example to the others


She. The name sort of indicates it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She. The name sort of indicates it.


ONLY THE CASTE ENEMY GENDERS A STRANGER


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2014)

I suspect this person gets their caste nonsense from star wars or star trek or star gate or something rather then millennia of inequality and abuse. 

This is gettting beyond daft now.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2014)

Babylon 5- the Minbarri caste system is benign and theres nobody at the bottom getting shit on.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 23, 2014)

Occupy Tattooine


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 23, 2014)

The radical privileged will always resort to self-interest once they grow up a bit. They have stuff to lose.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Occupy Tattooine


Someone's on the case:


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2014)

the sandpeople walk single file to hide thier numbers


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the sandpeople walk single file to hide thier numbers


That's Joy Division.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the sandpeople walk single file to hide thier numbers



The sandpeople are idiots. Should use 171.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 23, 2014)

They're easily frightened, but return in greater numbers.  Here endeth the similarity with Occupy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> But to turn that around, in the way socialism is used by the majority of its 'commentariat' proponents, it reduces complex situations to binary oppositions - rich=poor, capitalist=worker and so on. But we don't dismiss socialism on that basis, so what's the difference? What is solidarity if not allying?



The only member of the _commentariat_ I've seen being that simplistic about socialisms is Ms. Penny.  Most of the rest tend to acknowledge that socialism is more nuanced, and deals in social strata rather than binary oppositions.



> Rather than trying to neutralise arguments, could it not be seen as trying to carve out a space to discuss things that, in the view of their proponents, have not been fully explored before? Maybe there is an absence of class arguments because they're being discussed elsewhere?



Or perhaps it's due to some people making a decision that class is no longer relevant, and allowing all their arguments to proceed from that assumption?



> As far as I can tell they are taking the language of class and applying it to other social constructs. So why would they apply it back to class?



No, they're taking the *language* of class, and using it selectively, in a Humpty-Dumpty manner, in order to support their own arguments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Calling women bitches for wearing an item of clothing, lecturing ethnic minorities on what is racism, being racist/homophobic themselves, nah all fine because they checked their privilege



TBF, this has *always* happened, and always will. There are always eejits who believe they're above the "rules" that govern quotidian beings such as ourselves, and who believe that the judgements they make of people are neutral because they happen to think they're self-aware.  You can't argue with them, either, because they *always but always* know better, regardless of whether they've any actual experience of what they're farting on about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Babylon 5- the Minbarri caste system is benign and theres nobody at the bottom getting shit on.



Until Delenn broke the Grey Council, and thewarrior caste starting feeling their dicks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2014)

fogbat said:


> The sandpeople are idiots. Should use 171.


should get lucky dip


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Until Delenn broke the Grey Council, and thewarrior caste starting feeling their dicks.



it did seem fairly implausible prior to that- a caste set up where the warriors don't fuck everyone over? And the priest caste don't tell the worker caste its thier own fault?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> you should see me today


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Kill it with fire





Anthropologists of the caste system are really, really, insistent that it's not a concept that can be used outside of India, Nepal, and a few pockets of the Indian diaspora.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 24, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2014)

Avril Lavigne getting it from the intersectionalistas. New video is cultural appropriation. Having a few words of forrin in your tune is racist - official.

I'm going to see Shonen Knife in a couple of weeks. What happens there? I might have to protest against myself.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 24, 2014)

Laurie realises UKIP aide went to Brighton College with her, and was a 'mean' girl.



Someone does their duty...


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 24, 2014)

Who the fuck brags about having a booking team?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 24, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Laurie realises UKIP aide went to Brighton College with her, and was a 'mean' girl.



I call bullshit on that - penny didn't go there until she was 11 in 1997 - at which point this Vaid was just about to leave and wouldn't be anywhere near first year kids.


----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2014)

Next week's column forming already - "Attack UKIP Vaid for her politics, not her nudey photos (or her class or where she went to school)"


----------



## Balbi (Apr 24, 2014)

And, backpedal...


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 24, 2014)

Jesus, could she be anymore vain?


----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2014)

Matt the scab Taibbi is in this Occupy fillum. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2201488/

Only a matter of time before there's a drama out. PD need to put a treatment together, we're falling behind in the loon gap.


----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2014)

Balbi said:


> And, backpedal...


Is it just me or is she engaging in a bit of thinly veiled schadenfreude rather than 'calling out' a straightforward case of rotten sexism?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 24, 2014)

Arguments about "cultural appropriation" as they are expressed through social media rage are really crudely essentialist. The operating assumption is of discrete, eternal, cultures, with hybridisation cast as violation.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 24, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The operating assumption is of discrete, eternal, cultures, with hybridisation cast as violation.



You've got another 43 characters to go!


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 24, 2014)

Balbi said:


> And, backpedal...


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> Avril Lavigne getting it from the intersectionalistas. New video is cultural appropriation. Having a few words of forrin in your tune is racist - official.
> 
> I'm going to see Shonen Knife in a couple of weeks. What happens there? I might have to protest against myself.




Odd considering the amount of "cultural appropriation" in Japanese popular culture. Kitty herself  lives in a fictionalised felinised version of the 1970's London n which  the rather more real me grew up.




> Hello Kitty is originally Japanese, "Hello Kitty" refers to the group of related characters, while the main character herself is known as Kitty White (キティ・ホワイト, _Kiti Howaito_?), or affectionately as Kitty-chan (キティちゃん, _Kiti-chan_?). According to the official character profile, she was born in the suburbs of London, England on November 1. Her height is described as five apples and her weight as three apples. She is portrayed as a bright and kind-hearted girl, very close to her twin sister Mimmy. She is good at baking cookies and loves Mama's homemade apple pie. She likes to collect cute things and her favourite subjects in school are English, music and art.[2][8]



Even Kitty's seemingly generic sounding cat related name was meant as an act of overt cultural appropriation



> ] Shimizu got the name _Kitty_ from Lewis Carroll's _Through the Looking-Glass_, where in a scene early in the book Alice plays with a cat she calls _Kitty_.[


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2014)

Balbi said:


> And, backpedal...




Let's hope the UKIP libel lawyers have  been let loose on poor old Penny!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2014)

tim said:


> Let's hope the UKIP libel lawyers have  been let loose on poor old Penny!


a win-win situation


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> Next week's column forming already - "Attack UKIP Vaid for her politics, not her nudey photos (or her class or where she went to school)"


"don't be mean to lizzy vaid"

laurie penny says: she's just a hardworking girl from brighton who fell in with a bad crowd


----------



## flypanam (Apr 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Jesus, could she be anymore vain?




#cancelsueypark's8o'clock


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 25, 2014)

Her stance on Snowden was bad enough but feminist hashtag creator wants U.S./UN intervention in Nigeria after Boko Haram kidnapped over 200 girls.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Her stance on Snowden was bad enough but feminist hashtag creator wants U.S./UN intervention in Nigeria after Boko Haram kidnapped over 200 girls.




The facepalmfulness is even stronger with this one than you might imagine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 25, 2014)

http://www.varsity.co.uk/culture/7107

*Hannah Wilkinson* talks to Laurie Penny about the lack of opportunities young people are facing today, and what we can do about it

In _Varsity_.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 25, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> http://www.varsity.co.uk/culture/7107
> 
> *Hannah Wilkinson* talks to Laurie Penny about the lack of opportunities young people are facing today, and what we can do about it
> 
> In _Varsity_.



this has made me and my girlfriend cry with laughter.  if you invented that, people would think you'd gone too far!


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 25, 2014)

'Never meet your idols,' lol.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 25, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> this has made me and my girlfriend cry with laughter.  if you invented that, people would think you'd gone too far!


 
Solid gold classic, a quote for this thread in every paragraph.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> http://www.varsity.co.uk/culture/7107
> 
> *Hannah Wilkinson* talks to Laurie Penny about the lack of opportunities young people are facing today, and what we can do about it
> 
> In _Varsity_.



This is a goldmine of horror


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Her stance on Snowden was bad enough but feminist hashtag creator wants U.S./UN intervention in Nigeria after Boko Haram kidnapped over 200 girls.




God help her if she used the wrong pronoun for somebody, but apparently full on cruise missile feminism is ok.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2014)

> “I graduated in 2007 before the crash, and I look at my friends who graduated just after the crash and the difference is just astonishing” She explains. “People my age and older believed that if we worked hard and did all the right things it would all be fine eventually. Now people know that’s bullshit.”



Yes, pre-2007 all mediocre writers with big fuck off entitlement issues could get a regular gig in the New Statesman, Independent and Guardian. That's why you have been successful in your career...


----------



## rekil (Apr 25, 2014)

tim said:


> Odd considering the amount of "cultural appropriation" in Japanese popular culture. Kitty herself  lives in a fictionalised felinised version of the 1970's London n which  the rather more real me grew up.
> 
> Even Kitty's seemingly generic sounding cat related name was meant as an act of overt cultural appropriation


Lavigne denies all charges btw. She blames the Japanese director and crew.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 25, 2014)

She has now set up a petition asking the US government to intervene, thereby showing a solid grasp of the mechanics of power as well as her usual touching faith in the role of the US military as a force for good.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> Lavigne denies all charges btw. She blames the Japanese director and crew.



How long before speaking a foreign language is considered 'cultural appropriation' by these knownothing dickheads?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2014)

It's not like she hasn't committed actual crimes, like..


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 25, 2014)

I still rate "What The Hell".


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 25, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> http://www.varsity.co.uk/culture/7107
> 
> *Hannah Wilkinson* talks to Laurie Penny about the lack of opportunities young people are facing today, and what we can do about it
> 
> In _Varsity_.



Utterly hilarious. Lack of self-awareness personified.

“I could do, but I’d be a shit writer” she says. “I need to be listening and engaged. The last thing I need is a thick skin.”


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 25, 2014)

I nearly gave myself a hernia through wincing at that final paragraph.


----------



## killer b (Apr 25, 2014)

why would anyone dance ironically (or semi-unironically) to sean paul?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 25, 2014)

killer b said:


> why would anyone dance ironically (or semi-unironically) to sean paul?


 
Complex navigation of hipster territory.

Perhaps you can't just dance to Sean Paul because you used to like him when you were in your early twenties and are a bit embarrassed about it now.

But you definitely can't dance to Sean Paul ironically because that might be construed as taking the piss out of Jamaicans (albeit relatively middle class ones).

So you have to do it "semi-unironically".

Which also raises the issue of cultural appropriation of reggae by white people. Clearly skinheads shouldn't have enjoyed dancing to ska in the sixties and it was much better when their racist offspring the boneheads danced to Skrewdriver in the 80s.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2014)

campaigned for the lib dems semi ironically


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 25, 2014)

killer b said:


> why would anyone dance ironically (or semi-unironically) to sean paul?



that bit confused me too.


----------



## chilango (Apr 25, 2014)

Half a black fly in your chardonnay?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 25, 2014)

Lordy me that Varsity article is excruciating. It reads as if LP has given up arguing about youth issues because it's just too hard. 

But using Varsity to talk about the opportunities young people don't have access to is a bit


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2014)

tbf it reads like she has stopped doing so because as at the venerable age of 27 she is no longer yoot. Which is true. It's three years away from when you have to hand in your badge and your shades and admit that you are no longer having your finger on the youth zietgiest pulse


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2014)

Why did no one send me the memo about ‘youth issues’ being a ‘genre’? Or is that purely a private school-Oxbridge-meejah hipster thing?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 25, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Why did no one send me the memo about ‘youth issues’ being a ‘genre’? Or is that purely a private school-Oxbridge-meejah hipster thing?



you didn't get it?  obviously you're no-one in the world of the commentariat.  i hear sunny got it twice.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> you didn't get it?  obviously you're no-one in the world of the commentariat.  i hear sunny got it twice.


No, Will Self is _no one_ in the world of the commentariat.


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2014)

> The Free University of Sheffield is a grass-roots organisation of loosely associated students and staff based in Sheffield concerned by the current state of higher education.
> 
> On May 1 we will be opening a temporary learning space in the University of Sheffield where people from all works of life can come together as e...quals and share skills, resources and ideas. Our intention is to embody a practical expression of how we think universities should be structured, and what they should be here to do, which includes the provision of a free education for all in an institution that is non-hierarchical and directly-democratic, and run in the interests of society as a whole rather than the profit of the few.
> 
> ...




Saw the title and thought, wow, then saw all the programme..


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2014)

J Ed said:


> How long before speaking a foreign language is considered 'cultural appropriation' by these knownothing dickheads?



So, when I go over to France and have the common courtesy to use basic French instead of assuming that everybody speaks English and I'm there to enjoy a global sporting event that's geographically located in France, is that cultural appropriation as well?

If I should happen to have a glass of cognac, or eat local food, or buy local souvenirs and bring them home with me, should I be ticking off my big list of sins and displaying appropriate penitence for having ever been there at all?

Just so I know, like.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or perhaps it's due to some people making a decision that class is no longer relevant, and allowing all their arguments to proceed from that assumption?



And why shouldn't they? We might disagree with them but that doesn't make their position invalid.

People's responses to me have been illuminating, thanks. I think what is at the root of my lack of understanding is this 'either-or' attitude. I don't see why it is necessarily a problem that intersectionalists relegate class to one of many factors.  Its proponents seem to spend most of their time debating on Twitter and a few blogs. It has very little general recognition. Plenty of other people are having debates in terms that reject the premise of intersectionality.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> And why shouldn't they? We might disagree with them but that doesn't make their position invalid.
> 
> People's responses to me have been illuminating, thanks. I think what is at the root of my lack of understanding is this 'either-or' attitude. I don't see why it is necessarily a problem that intersectionalists relegate class to one of many factors.  Its proponents seem to spend most of their time debating on Twitter and a few blogs. It has very little general recognition. Plenty of other people are having debates in terms that reject the premise of intersectionality.



It's a problem because any social analysis that even attempts to be inclusive, but that doesn't place the most basic cleavage of all as the one from which all other cleavages proceed, entirely misses the point of social analysis, which is to analyse society, not just the bits of it you feel most comfortable with.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Avril Lavigne getting it from the intersectionalistas. New video is cultural appropriation. Having a few words of forrin in your tune is racist - official.
> 
> I'm going to see Shonen Knife in a couple of weeks. What happens there? I might have to protest against myself.


And what's that got to do with intersectionality? Guardianistas were getting high and mighty about cultural appropriation long before intersectionality became a buzzword (leading to my favourite ever Guardian headline: 'Is afro-house demeaning to world music?').


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a problem because any social analysis that even attempts to be inclusive, but that doesn't place the most basic cleavage of all as the one from which all other cleavages proceed, entirely misses the point of social analysis, which is to analyse society, not just the bits of it you feel most comfortable with.


But they disagree with your assertion that class is the most basic cleavage of all, and that all of the other ones come from that.


----------



## rekil (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> And what's that got to do with intersectionality?


You'd have to ask them really but I reckon it's a particularly odd extrapolation of the logic of identity politics. They're saying Lavigne is exercising white privilege and faffing about as a kind of faux pop punk supersexist Al Jolson just for the fuck of it, ignoring that she's popular in Japan and that musicians rarely have much to do with the creation of their own videos.



			
				huff post said:
			
		

> The women included in the "Hello Kitty" video are not part of the story. They do not seem to have any agency, emotions or purpose beyond playing Lavigne's backdrop and representing a watered-down version of Japanese culture, palatable for a white American audience.



With these weirdos, concern about cultural appropriation centres exclusively around notions of crude racial separatism, rather than class.

Anyway here's Shonen Knife with a new song about cats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> But they disagree with your assertion that class is the most basic cleavage of all, and that all of the other ones come from that.



Yes, they do disagree.
What none of them *do* do, though, is put forward a coherent (or even semi-coherent) argument as to why that's the case.  The best you get is "because racism!" or similar.
And before you ask whether I've put forward a coherent argument in support of my assertion, yes I have, on the Laurie Penny thread.  Feel free to scoot across and plough through the whole shebang!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 28, 2014)

a herculean labour at 300 pages plus!


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, they do disagree.
> What none of them *do* do, though, is put forward a coherent (or even semi-coherent) argument as to why that's the case.  The best you get is "because racism!" or similar.
> And before you ask whether I've put forward a coherent argument in support of my assertion, yes I have, on the Laurie Penny thread.  Feel free to scoot across and plough through the whole shebang!


I followed that for a while but then got out while the going was still good. I will try and find your post but if you happen to have a link I'd be grateful. In the meantime I'll have a go:

50 men and 50 women spawn on to God's green land. All else being equal, the men will tend to dominance because they, as a rule, are stronger and can physically force the women to do what they want. I contend that this will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people. That is, whether they are a group of people plucked from 1990s Britain or a pre-agrarian, pre-capitalist tribe.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 28, 2014)

oh dear


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I followed that for a while but then got out while the going was still good. I will try and find your post but if you happen to have a link I'd be grateful. In the meantime I'll have a go:
> 
> 50 men and 50 women spawn on to God's green land. All else being equal, the men will tend to dominance because they, as a rule, are stronger and can physically force the women to do what they want. I contend that this will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people. That is, whether they are a group of people plucked from 1990s Britain or a pre-agrarian, pre-capitalist tribe.


Um, what????

Force the women to do what they want? What the fuck are you advocating here?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> 50 men and 50 women spawn on to God's green land. All else being equal, the men will tend to dominance because they, as a rule, are stronger and can physically force the women to do what they want. I contend that this will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people. That is, whether they are a group of people plucked from 1990s Britain or a pre-agrarian, pre-capitalist tribe.



hmmmmm.  i've seen that argument before somewhere.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Um, what????
> 
> Force the women to do what they want? What the fuck are you advocating here?


I'm not advocating anything.

I'm saying that men have historically dominated women through the threat of physical violence.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm not advocating anything.
> 
> I'm saying that men have historically dominated women through the threat of physical violence.


Bit of a generalisation that. Some men have done that yes, but not every single man ever has dominated all women he knows through the threat of physical violence.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm not advocating anything.
> 
> I'm saying that men have historically dominated women through the threat of physical violence.



Have they?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Bit of a generalisation that. Some men have done that yes, but not every single man ever has dominated all women he knows through the threat of physical violence.


 I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about patriarchy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 28, 2014)

and you think that is a natural state of affairs, predetermined, and inevitable?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about patriarchy.


And within the patriarchy not all men make women do things through the threat of physical violence.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about patriarchy.


You were making a generalisation about 'human nature', no? And the inevitability that if males are physically bigger they will dominate.

Our two closest relatives (very close - we're closer to each other than to any other ape) are chimps and bonobos. Both chimps and bonobos exhibit similar size differences between the sexes to humans. Chimp society can be said to be broadly patriarchal, while bonobo society is broadly matriarchal, despite females being smaller than males. 

You can't generalise just from size differences.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> and you think that is a natural state of affairs, predetermined, and inevitable?


No, and this is where I think the intersectionalist approach falls down.

For example, a woman may experience sexism in the workplace but it is fairly unlikely that she faces actual physical threat. She is being belittled or whatever because she lives in a patriarchal society, which ultimately derives from the exploitation of force. But as in many circumstances it is now split from physical strength then there is an opportunity for change (hence attacks on patriarchy).

But the point is that the inequality here didn't derive from class.

e2a: but my example of workplace sexism being not linked to physical strength does not mean that violence is no longer used against women.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And within the patriarchy not all men make women do things through the threat of physical violence.


Yeah, obviously.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> No, and this is where I think the intersectionalist approach falls down.
> 
> For example, a woman may experience sexism in the workplace but it is fairly unlikely that she faces actual physical threat. She is being belittled or whatever because she lives in a patriarchal society, which ultimately derives from the exploitation of force. But as in many circumstances it is now split from physical strength then there is an opportunity for change (hence attacks on patriarchy)..



Explain bonobo society using this thinking.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Yeah, obviously.


Except you said that wasn't the case a few posts above. So which is it?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Explain bonobo society using this thinking.


An exception to the rule. There are also human matriarchal societies. And?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> An exception to the rule. There are also human matriarchal societies. And?


If there are exceptions, then it isn't a rule.

I think you are right that there have been many times and places (and still here and now in many instances) where male physical domination of women has been reflected in wider society. But you did make some rather grand statements earlier on about it being a general rule. It's not, and there are more complicated things going on, which you seem to be acknowledging.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Except you said that wasn't the case a few posts above. So which is it?


Show me where I said that?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Show me where I said that?


In this exchange within the last 20 minutes.


tbtommyb said:


> I'm not advocating anything.
> 
> I'm saying that men have historically dominated women through the threat of physical violence.





equationgirl said:


> Bit of a generalisation that. Some men have done that yes, but not every single man ever has dominated all women he knows through the threat of physical violence.





tbtommyb said:


> I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about patriarchy.





equationgirl said:


> And within the patriarchy not all men make women do things through the threat of physical violence.





tbtommyb said:


> Yeah, obviously.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If there are exceptions, then it isn't a rule.


According to whom?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> In this exchange within the last 20 minutes.



Yeah, still don't see how you're getting confused. I'm saying that men, as in the group that is half the population of the human species, not each individual man, have historically used violence and the threat of to dominate women. This does not mean that literally every man ever has used violence against a woman. The control became codified in a patriarchy so that violence was no longer used, but the fundamental asymmetry lies underneath.

e2a: I'd also point out that you're the one who has reinterpreted a general statement to refer to every instance ever, so please back up your reasoning for that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> According to whom?


You and I clearly understand something different from the word 'rule'. 

You're normally onto a loser when you try to state some general rule of 'human nature'. Incest taboo is pretty universal across societies (as it is in many other species) . Male domination of women isn't. Neither is war, fwiw.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You and I clearly understand something different from the word 'rule'.



Well, clearly. I have never seen a definition of 'rule' that meant it couldn't have an exception.


> You're normally onto a loser when you try to state some general rule of 'human nature'. Incest taboo is pretty universal across societies (as it is in many other species) . Male domination of women isn't. Neither is war, fwiw.



So what percentage of societies are matriarchal?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Yeah, still don't see how you're getting confused. I'm saying that men, as in the group that is half the population of the human species, not each individual man, have historically used violence and the threat of to dominate women. This does not mean that literally every man ever has used violence against a woman. The control became codified in a patriarchy so that violence was no longer used, but the fundamental asymmetry lies underneath.
> 
> e2a: *I'd also point out that you're the one who has reinterpreted a general statement to refer to every instance ever, so please back up your reasoning for that*.


Because that's the definition of a generalisation. I haven't misunderstood anything.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Yeah, still don't see how you're getting confused. I'm saying that men, as in the group that is half the population of the human species, not each individual man, have historically used violence and the threat of to dominate women. This does not mean that literally every man ever has used violence against a woman. The control became codified in a patriarchy so that violence was no longer used, but the fundamental asymmetry lies underneath.
> 
> e2a: I'd also point out that you're the one who has reinterpreted a general statement to refer to every instance ever, so please back up your reasoning for that.


I think you're the one that is confused. Violence has not become codified within the patriarchy to control women as you claim.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

You said this:



> 50 men and 50 women spawn on to God's green land. All else being equal, the men will tend to dominance because they, as a rule, are stronger and can physically force the women to do what they want. I contend that this will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people. That is, whether they are a group of people plucked from 1990s Britain or a pre-agrarian, pre-capitalist tribe.



A society of 100 people will go to hell very bloody quickly if one half starts trying to push the other half around. Cooperation and mutual aid may see a division of labour that reflects physical abilities, but it by no means follows that this will mean domination of one sex over the other. In such a thought experiment, I would suggest that any man who tries to physically force women to do stuff will end up being excluded from the group if he doesn't stop.


----------



## rioted (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> So what percentage of societies are matriarchal?


Matriarchy or Patriarchy? There must be more choices than that, surely?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Because that's the definition of a generalisation. I haven't misunderstood anything.


I'm sorry, but I genuinely can't see how you're interpreting it in this way. Some men may not have (partly due to codification of structures I mentioned above), but that doesn't change the statement that men as a collective group did. An example: 'the British in the 19th century exploited people in other countries'. Doesn't mean every single British person did, but the British as a collective group did.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think you're the one that is confused. Violence has not become codified within the patriarchy to control women as you claim.


What's your argument for that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm sorry, but I genuinely can't see how you're interpreting it in this way. Some men may not have (partly due to codification of structures I mentioned above), but that doesn't change the statement that men as a collective group did. An example: 'the British in the 19th century exploited people in other countries'. Doesn't mean every single British person did, but the British as a collective group did.


The British ruling classes exploited people in other countries. And they exploited other British people in Britain. The British as a collective group doesn't work in this case.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A society of 100 people will go to hell very bloody quickly if one half starts trying to push the other half around. Cooperation and mutual aid may see a division of labour that reflects physical abilities, but it by no means follows that this will mean domination of one sex over the other. In such a thought experiment, I would suggest that any man who tries to physically force women to do stuff will end up being excluded from the group if he doesn't stop.


And I would suggest otherwise.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The British ruling classes exploited people in other countries. And they exploited other British people in Britain. The British as a collective group doesn't work in this case.


At first I thought it was a bad example but actually it's not so bad. The point I'm trying to make is that a group can have a behaviour that is not reflected by each and every member of it. So 'men' is more than just a collection of males, it is the gender.

This is basically another example of when someone says 'we live in a society where men dominate' and someone pipes up with 'oh, well I'm a man and I don't dominate anyone!', completely missing the point.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> And I would suggest otherwise.


Ok. You appear to have a very dim view of people, and men in particular. Do you have any evidence to back up your view? 

I think Kropotkin was a bit idealistic in some of what he thought, but he makes some very valid points in Mutual Aid. As a species our success is based on our ability to see the value in cooperation, at least in defined 'in-groups'. If there were just 100 people on Earth, there would certainly just be one 'in-group'. They'd all know each other and be very aware that their individual survival depended on the success of the group.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> What's your argument for that?


Where's your evidence that it has?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok. You appear to have a very dim view of people, and men in particular. Do you have any evidence to back up your view?


I wouldn't say it's dim, as I think that we have come a long way from it. The thought experiment I gave was very extreme. I think in practice actual violence would be rare, but it is the social structures that build up around it. Just as I, now, would not intentionally assert dominance over a woman, but I probably do without meaning to in many ways that trace themselves back very very far. And men previously would have exploited a social order that privileged them that goes right back.



> I think Kropotkin was a bit idealistic in some of what he thought, but he makes some very valid points in Mutual Aid. As a species our success is based on our ability to see the value in cooperation, at least in defined 'in-groups'. If there were just 100 people on Earth, there would certainly just be one 'in-group'. They'd all know each other and be very aware that their individual survival depended on the success of the group.


Yes, but groups can split, meet other groups etc. Maybe one group found that using domination was effective for a time that allowed them to take over another group etc etc.


equationgirl said:


> Where's your evidence that it has?



Well, for a start violence is still used as a method of control of women in many different ways. The patriarchy is about controlling women's behaviour in a way that men want (I should stress, given the car crash that we had above, that _not every man ever has always wanted to control every woman_). The most basic method of control is violence. The control just got a lot more subtle.

Anyway, I am off to bed. This has been very interesting.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 29, 2014)

actually i completely see what tommyb was saying now, i misunderstood initially thinking he was making some evo-psych argument that men dominating women is nature's way, but actually he's just saying that the patriarchy exists and is a real thing.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 29, 2014)

and this "will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 29, 2014)

tbf he started off with a sweeping statement and became a bit more nuanced as he went on. I still think he has it wrong about the nature of human interaction, which is  a bit evo-psychy.

And the nature of male domination, where it exists, is far more complex anyway. There are other ways to dominate, for instance by being rich. And money trumps gender generally, I would say, in terms of social power.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 29, 2014)

yeah, that's why it was so hard to see what he actually meant.

well, it's all class isn't it, but within classes gender.

like, an upper class woman lacks the social power of an upper class man, but has far more social power than a working class man, because of class.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I followed that for a while but then got out while the going was still good. I will try and find your post but if you happen to have a link I'd be grateful. In the meantime I'll have a go:
> 
> 50 men and 50 women spawn on to God's green land. All else being equal, the men will tend to dominance because they, as a rule, are stronger and can physically force the women to do what they want. I contend that this will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people. That is, whether they are a group of people plucked from 1990s Britain or a pre-agrarian, pre-capitalist tribe.



Because...?  I'm asking because I don't want to just assume you're some kind of social Darwinist or biological determinist.
After all, muscle power isn't the be-all and end-all of dominance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm not advocating anything.
> 
> I'm saying that men have historically dominated women through the threat of physical violence.



Reductivist.
Men have historically dominated women because over time a narrative of male dominance was constructed in order to naturalise patriarchy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about patriarchy.



No, you were talking about a small number of men and women.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You were making a generalisation about 'human nature', no? And the inevitability that if males are physically bigger they will dominate.



If tommy has an open mind, he'll know there's no such thing as "human nature" - that "human nature" is a social construct used to excuse and/or explain behaviours that invariably emanate from motivation rather than from a vacuum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> No, and this is where I think the intersectionalist approach falls down.
> 
> For example, a woman may experience sexism in the workplace but it is fairly unlikely that she faces actual physical threat.



Frankly, that's a poor example, given that a significant minority of claims of workplace sexism involve physical sexual harrassment. "Fairly unlikely" doesn't cut the mustard.



> She is being belittled or whatever because she lives in a patriarchal society, which ultimately derives from the exploitation of force. But as in many circumstances it is now split from physical strength then there is an opportunity for change (hence attacks on patriarchy).
> 
> But the point is that the inequality here didn't derive from class.



Didn't it? How was and is modern sexual inequality in the workplace constructed?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I'm sorry, but I genuinely can't see how you're interpreting it in this way. Some men may not have (partly due to codification of structures I mentioned above), but that doesn't change the statement that men as a collective group did. An example: 'the British in the 19th century exploited people in other countries'. Doesn't mean every single British person did, but the British as a collective group did.



It means that those with the ability to exploit, did so.
Those with the ability to exploit were invariably the ruling classes and the _bourgeoisie_.

So, not a "collective group" that's in any way representative of "the British" in the 19th century.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> actually i completely see what tommyb was saying now, i misunderstood initially thinking he was making some evo-psych argument that men dominating women is nature's way, but actually he's just saying that the patriarchy exists and is a real thing.



Telling us something we're already well aware of, but doing it wordily and self-righteously.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2014)

smokedout said:


> and this "will hold true regardless of cultural preconditions of the people."



Yes, because physiology will always override intellect, comrade.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 29, 2014)

PD should demand all women be given access to light weaponry and combat training from school age to correct the imbalance


----------



## smokedout (Apr 29, 2014)

Except Laurie Penny because she'd just shoot herself in the foot


----------



## BigTom (Apr 29, 2014)

smokedout said:


> Except Laurie Penny because she'd just shoot herself in the foot



I'm now imagining Laurie in a revolutionary setting to be like Hugh Laurie's character in Blackadder Gone Forth.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2014)

Fuck off Graunid http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/apr/29/game-of-thrones-racism-sexism-rape


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> actually i completely see what tommyb was saying now, i misunderstood initially thinking he was making some evo-psych argument that men dominating women is nature's way, but actually he's just saying that the patriarchy exists and is a real thing.


Well yeah, and hopefully no-one would contest the existence of a patriarchy.

It's where it originates from is the interesting thing. The counter-argument to my proposition, as far as a cursory reading indicates, is that human society was broadly egalitarian until the arrival of agriculture and domestication created the first means of production (e.g. ploughs), which favoured men, hence the class-based explanation of the origin of patriarchy.

But to me there's a logical step missing there as it doesn't explain why the creation of means of production should favour men, _unless there was already a presumption in favour of men_. A woman is, after all, as capable as a man of creating a means of production.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2014)

But didn't. This is nonsense. What happened? Why are we here now? What's your explanation for why things changed from what you suggest was reality?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Reductivist.
> Men have historically dominated women because over time a narrative of male dominance was constructed in order to naturalise patriarchy.


Patriarchy is 'male dominance' so that definition is circular. And that wasn't my argument.



> Because...? I'm asking because I don't want to just assume you're some kind of social Darwinist or biological determinist.
> After all, muscle power isn't the be-all and end-all of dominance.


You kind of answered this yourself when you jumped at a class argument:



> It means that those with the ability to exploit, did so.
> Those with the ability to exploit were invariably the ruling classes and the _bourgeoisie_.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> But didn't. This is nonsense. What happened? Why are we here now? What's your explanation for why things changed from what you suggest was reality?


Do you mean what is my explanation for why the development of means of production favoured men rather than being equal?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Do you mean what is my explanation for why the development of means of production favoured men rather than being equal?


I mean expand on this:

 human society was broadly egalitarian until the arrival of agriculture and domestication created the first means of production (e.g. ploughs), which favoured men, hence the class-based explanation of the origin of patriarchy.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I mean expand on this:
> 
> human society was broadly egalitarian until the arrival of agriculture and domestication created the first means of production (e.g. ploughs), which favoured men, hence the class-based explanation of the origin of patriarchy.


oh right. well, if we state that patriarchy ultimately derives from class, and it did not meaningfully exist before there was class, then it follows that patriarchy comes after the arrival of the means of production that created class.

So from this, I do not see why the arrival of the means of production and the concept of class should necessarily have caused a disadvantage to women that previously did not exist and ultimately let to a patriarchy.

If I have misrepresented the argument I apologise.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> If tommy has an open mind, he'll know there's no such thing as "human nature" - that "human nature" is a social construct used to excuse and/or explain behaviours that invariably emanate from motivation rather than from a vacuum.


Really? Is that conclusively proven, or an assertion you've made?


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Telling us something we're already well aware of, but doing it wordily and self-righteously.


I fit right in here, don't I?


----------



## Balbi (Apr 30, 2014)

Got people on twitter tweeting about #poorphobia, which seems like a way for them to include class in the identity struggle


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

Laurie Penny on UKIP http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/ukip-understands-people-will-always-want-someone-blame - could have been a lot worse.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Laurie Penny on UKIP http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/ukip-understands-people-will-always-want-someone-blame - could have been a lot worse.



Nor without saying anything original or insightful. Just a regurgitation. Lazily calling Ukip the far-right is not helpful. They are no doubt a racist party but such a comparison is spurious. 

Also, I don't understand how you can write a serious political blog and include:

"In reality, one of the hands is under the table pointing a gun at your nethers, like Johnny Depp as Eyeless Jack in _Once Upon A Time In Mexico_, and I absolutely promise you that that’s the only time I’ll ever mention Johnny Depp and Nigel Farage in the same sentence."


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

Is that the piece that required her going to Brussels to write. Note that she's allowed attack people for going to private school. That piece is terribly written and edited. And it bashes people who bash UKIP by calling them racist whilst bashing UKIP for being racist. And yes, it _could _have been worse - that just shows how bad it is.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

that line about johnny depp. Jesus.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is that the piece that required her going to Brussels to write. Note that she's allowed attack people for going to private school. That piece is terribly written and edited. And it bashes people who bash UKIP by calling them racist whilst bashing UKIP for being racist. And yes, it _could _have been worse - that just shows how bad it is.



I was just expecting a Laurie Pennyised version of the stuff that's been in the Sun lately.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

_British people - and, in particular, the English people - will giggle it all the way into Downing Street, accompanied not by a Wagnerian overture but a farting trombone._


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I was just expecting a Laurie Pennyised version of the stuff that's been in the Sun lately.


It sort of was wasn't it? Just with added finger-wagging. If 'the organised left' is her and her mates then no wonder people don't go near it - that's not something that her last - key - paragraph could ever see.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

a) What on earth does she think will happen - that UKIP are going to win the general election? 
b) What on nearth does she think has happened? Has she missed the racialising of social issues by the three main parties over the last three decades? Where is the real far-right threat here? Her parties and their power or UKIP?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

Scroll down to the adverts under that piece - look at the middle one. What on earth made them think that would be a good picture to sell their service?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Patriarchy is 'male dominance' so that definition is circular. And that wasn't my argument.



No, patriarchy *isn't* "male dominance".  



> You kind of answered this yourself when you jumped at a class argument:



Except that I didn't.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Has she missed the racialising of social issues by the three main parties over the last three decades? Where is the real far-right threat here? Her parties and their power or UKIP?


This is a point that needs to be made over and over - that UKIP or similar (and stamp out UKIP and something else will take it's place) are the inevitable consequence of mainstream political discourse.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

1000 words and she does not mention how some working classes are voting Ukip, the sense of betrayal many feel with the centre-left agreed to variants of austerity. As if the racist framework Ukip came from was not established by the very Westminster elite they claim to despise. 

"The entire comment spectrum on left and right seems to treat the people who plan to vote for Ukip and similar meatheaded, vicious right-wing parties like cattle who must be herded towards right-thinking."

But you've just labelled Ukip a far-right party. Irony, eh? She really does not understand the appeal of Ukip a great deal. Vacuous dribble.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> Really? Is that conclusively proven, or an assertion you've made?



*Nothing* is conclusively proven, tommy. 
As far as psychology goes, however, there's very little from 100+ years of research to show that "human nature" is innate (unless we're regressing back to Lombroso and his mapping of traits to physiognomy - read your head-bumps, sir?), and quite a lot to show that it's culturally-loaded and socially-constructed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2014)

tbtommyb said:


> I fit right in here, don't I?



Yes, you do!


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 30, 2014)

killer b said:


> _British people - and, in particular, the English people - will giggle it all the way into Downing Street, accompanied not by a Wagnerian overture but a farting trombone._


 
Something already demonstrated by Boris?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

"Across Europe, candidates from the libertarian nationalist fringe are emerging to fill the void where hope should be"

Is a really weird line. I know that UKIP has a lot of right wing libertarians but are any of the other nationalist parties in Europe at all libertarian? I know that Wilders went through a free market phase that he seems to have abandoned but I cannot think of any other examples...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> "Across Europe, candidates from the libertarian nationalist fringe are emerging to fill the void where hope should be"
> 
> Is a really weird line. I know that UKIP has a lot of right wing libertarians but are any of the other nationalist parties in Europe at all libertarian? I know that Wilders went through a free market phase that he seems to have abandoned but I cannot think of any other examples...


It tends to be strongly interventionist and social protectionist. Serious misreading of the contemporary far-right,


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Something already demonstrated by Boris?


I don't agree with her. I just thought it was a fairly nasty sentence. Contemptuous.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

Britain has a long tradition of resisting fascism. If she only thinks Ukip are a) fascist b) will get near Westminster. Well, she is deeply misguided. The bigger issue is the normalisation of racism/xenophobia by the major parties. Ukip's racism does not exist in a vacuum after all. It's a really patronising final paragraph.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Scroll down to the adverts under that piece - look at the middle one. What on earth made them think that would be a good picture to sell their service?



Hipster chic?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

Hipster life insurance.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

I hate these people:


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

LP's "made it"- she's at the point where she can churn out any old sick, reheated from last week's guardians, and then harvest the "omg! nailed it!!" head pats.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 30, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, patriarchy *isn't* "male dominance".



Oxford Dictionary definition: 'a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.'

That's an example of male dominance. Not all male dominance is patriarchy, of course.


> Except that I didn't.


You did, when you said 'those who could exploit, did'.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 30, 2014)

Looks like Laurie is going back to university. http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/



> I’m excited finally to be able to announce that I’ll be joining the class of 2015 at the Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard University.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Looks like Laurie is going back to university. http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/



Meritocracy, she is in you


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Looks like Laurie is going back to university. http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/


Look forward to some great scoops


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

I'm so glad that we live in a world where the privately educated, Oxford grad salt of the earth daughter of lawyers can end up at Harvard.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I'm so glad that we live in a world where the privately educated, Oxford grad salt of the earth daughter of lawyers can end up at Harvard.


In a way, we are all the winners here.


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

"given my age and background in non-traditional media."

State telly and radio, newspapers and liberal websites are non traditional media.


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

> Laurie Penny (UK anarchist), contributing editor of the New Statesman, editor-at-large of The New Inquiry, and a contributor to The Guardian, Vice, _The Nation_ and many other publications, will study the economic history and theory of social movements, with an emphasis on digital culture and linguistics.



Hope she finds the time and inclination to have a go at studying Proletarian Democracy.


----------



## phildwyer (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Scroll down to the adverts under that piece - look at the middle one. What on earth made them think that would be a good picture to sell their service?


 
It's an ad for life insurance, so we must presume this shows a young widow's reaction to the news that her recently-deceased husband had failed to make adequate provision in that regard.

Quite obvious really, why have your semantic skills deserted you today?


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

Win/win - we get a break for a year or two, and she learns to write.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

killer b said:


> Win/win - we get a break for a year or two, and she learns to write.


And - maybe, just maybe - citizenship!


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

Maybe Laurie will drop the pretence of being anything but posh and privileged.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

Oh, please.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

"I’ve been feeling for a while now that in order *to take my writing to the next level*, I needed to stop careering around chasing stories, go back to school and sit my bum down for some serious reading and nerding out. This fellowship is an unbelievable opportunity to do just that."

Oh man, I'm dying reading that.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

Does fellowship mean she gets to do it all paid for?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> "I’ve been feeling for a while now that in order *to take my writing to the next level*, I needed to stop careering around chasing stories..."



Pretty sure that ‘careering around chasing stories’ is what distinguishes a reporter from non-reporters.

By way of contrast, here's a proper journalist, ‘careering around’ as she ‘chases a story’:

https://www.beaconreader.com/projects/the-last-story-of-robert-bradford

Feel free to fund McKee's work, safe in the knowledge that she doesn't need to _take her writing to the next level_.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 30, 2014)

Last night danced semi-unironically to Avril Lavigne whilst we all discussed how much we regret campaigning for Hilary in 2016. Possibly my most millennial moment ever.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 30, 2014)

From here http://nieman.harvard.edu/NiemanFou...ipProgramAtAGlance/StipendsAndAllowances.aspx



> International Fellows
> Funds from the original Nieman bequest are restricted to U.S. citizens. International candidates must find financial support from sources outside the Nieman Foundation; however, finding funding is not a condition of being awarded a fellowship. The Nieman Foundation will assist International Fellows to secure necessary funds.
> 
> This funding can come from many sources. Typically, candidates work with foundations and journalistic organizations in their own countries to find money to support a Nieman Fellowship.
> ...


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

Edgy


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

_Sorry, guys, but I'm not going back out there today. Really don't want to be arrested and deported just for studying journalism._


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 30, 2014)

EDIT cos yer hoodedclaw said it first.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

It's the ambition that gets me. Ambition is counter revolutionary.


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

"Laurie Penny, 27, never imagined she would find herself enmeshed in a world of poverty and the grip of the Harvard fellowship system when she graduated with a 2:1 degree in English from Oxford University in 2008"


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Does fellowship mean she gets to do it all paid for?


There's allsorts of funding streams, bequests and whatnot that Oxford grads can tap up. Fortunately for her.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

Yeah, lots of elite mutual aid out there.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, lots of elite mutual aid out there.


 
"Special thanks go to the amazing Emily Bell, Paul Mason, Jason Cowley and Clay Shirky, who took the time to write letters of recommendation."


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> ...Paul Mason...



“Why, she's all fucking off now!”


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

Maybe in a year, she'll drop the shitty teenage prose and learn to write correctly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2014)

just lol


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

"It’s a great honour to have been accepted, and one that I wasn’t expecting, given my age and background in non-traditional media."

Are you fucking kidding me?! The Guardian and New Statesman aren't traditional media? Christ.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

Clearly The Only Interesting Person In Harvard (2014 Edition)


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> "It’s a great honour to have been accepted, and one that I wasn’t expecting, given my age and background in non-traditional media."
> 
> Are you fucking kidding me?! The Guardian and New Statesman aren't traditional media? Christ.



http://thenewinquiry.com/author/laurie-penny/



> Laurie Penny was born in a skip in Islington in 1986 and grew up wild in the back-alleys of London’s bourgeois ghetto, surviving only on mouldy paninis and half-eaten pots of hummous fished out of bins and sleeping in rolled-up copies of The Observer Review. After a dispute with a notorious urban fox gang, she fled to Brighton Beach, and was taken in by a radical seagull collective and weaned on mulched-up, regurgitated back-issues of Spare Rib and Red Rag. Eventually she was offered a scholarship to Brighton College Sixth Form, where she edited a student newspaper and never learned to wear a tie. She went to Wadham College, Oxford, and later moved back to London to work in a shop in Camden Market, where being a scuzzy, mohawked Brighton feminist was part of the job description. It didn’t stick, and she rapidly turned to a life of journalism, having discovered that she was unsuited to any other employment by virtue of being weird and difficult. Now she has long hair, a semi-regular income, and zooms around trying to put the world to rights. She can still talk to seagulls



Does anyone else understand what this bio is supposed to convey? Is it a 'fuck you' to people who point out that she is enormously privileged or ironic or an actual attempt to convey a lack of privilege?


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> "It’s a great honour to have been accepted, and one that I wasn’t expecting, given my age and background in non-traditional media."
> 
> Are you fucking kidding me?! The Guardian and New Statesman aren't traditional media? Christ.


 I think that means she uses twitter.


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

Clearly I need to take my 'making shit up in interviews' to the next level.


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://thenewinquiry.com/author/laurie-penny/
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone else understand what this bio is supposed to convey? Is it a 'fuck you' to people who point out that she is enormously privileged or ironic or an actual attempt to convey a lack of privilege?



Nobody makes more of an effort to re-write their history than she does.


----------



## tbtommyb (Apr 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I hate these people:



'Im Europe.' The hubris...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Nobody makes more of an effort to re-write their history than she does.



What are you suggesting?


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Clearly The Only Interesting Person In Harvard (2014 Edition)





> Elaine Díaz Rodríguez (Cuba), journalist, blogger and professor at the University of Havana, will study Internet-based models of journalism that could serve a plurality of voices in Cuban civil society, with a particular focus on political consensus building and national reconciliation.


Interesting cos apparently, she was refused a visa last year. So was I the first time I tried to go to the US. The next time I had a go, the nice woman at immigration asked me why I'd been refused entry before. I half expected to be turned back so just said "because I was poor". After a pause she goes "They didn't like that huh? Welcome to the US". I should've fucking stayed there tbh.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 30, 2014)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Looks like Laurie is going back to university. http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/



Well, if she studies journalism really, really, really hard then she might actually become a proper journalist.

At those odds I'll put a fiver on and have enough to retire.



Theisticle said:


> "I’ve been feeling for a while now that in order *to take my writing to the next level*, I needed to stop careering around chasing stories, go back to school and sit my bum down for some serious reading and nerding out. This fellowship is an unbelievable opportunity to do just that."
> 
> Oh man, I'm dying reading that.



So she wants to parade her authentic journalistic credibility, but doesn't want to to be 'Careering around chasing stories.'?


OK...


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

'nerding out' seems to be one of her favourite phrases atm. a grown woman, and the voice of a generation. _nerding out._


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

killer b said:


> 'nerding out' seems to be one of her favourite phrases atm. a grown woman, and the voice of a generation. _nerding out._


She likes American things.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

> Laurie Penny (UK anarchist), contributing editor of the New Statesman, editor-at-large of The New Inquiry, and a contributor to The Guardian, Vice, The Nation and many other publications, will study the economic history and theory of social movements, with an emphasis on digital culture and linguistics.



Hang on - if she's an anarchist wtf is she doing by crossing the picket line anarchists have for Harvard since its murderous role in the Sacco and Vanzetti case? Is she scabbing at hangman house?


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

I put in the anarchist bit. I punk'd you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> I put in the anarchist bit. I punk'd you.


I did notice that (really!) as it didn't appear on their announcement thing that i was just flicking through. She is crossing the line though isn't she?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2014)

oxford, internships, statesmen gig, and now harvard. Where will it end. A knighthood?


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I did notice that (really!) as it didn't appear on their announcement thing that i was just flicking through. She is crossing the line though isn't she?


You got confirmation that it's still in place? I can ask about if need be.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 30, 2014)

Nerding out?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2014)

something that one might aplly to spending an afternoon playing warhammer, not studying writing at the most prestigious uni in america


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oxford, internships, statesmen gig, and now harvard. Where will it end. A knighthood?



I predict that it will end somewhere between Christopher Hitchens and Melanie Philips.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 30, 2014)

I just asked if she's aware of Harvard's role in the case of Sacco and Vanzetti.


----------



## Sue (Apr 30, 2014)

killer b said:


> Win/win - we get a break for a year or two, and she learns to write.



Ever the optimist...


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She is crossing the line though isn't she?


How about Robert Paul Wolff ?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> How about Robert Paul Wolff ?


Paul Avrich who did the best book on Sacco and Vanzetti was even published by them.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> What are you suggesting?
> 
> View attachment 53076




I reckon a meme's coming on...


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2014)

> Laurie Penny (UK anarchist), contributing editor of the New Statesman, editor-at-large of The New Inquiry, and a contributor to The Guardian, Vice, _The Nation_ and many other publications, *will study the economic history and theory of social movements,* with an emphasis on digital culture and linguistics.



I'm sure the Rand Corporation would be happy to fund her studies


----------



## rekil (Apr 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Paul Avrich who did the best book on Sacco and Vanzetti was even published by them.


Waiting for the Crabapple illustrated edition.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2014)




----------



## Bakunin (Apr 30, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> I just asked if she's aware of Harvard's role in the case of Sacco and Vanzetti.



Still no reply. 

I'll file that under 'Inconvenient Truth' shall I, Penny Dreadful?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


>


says millionaire celebrity Russell Brand.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2014)

cutting.


----------



## classicdish (Apr 30, 2014)

I'm getting really bored of Penny and Crabapple. 

Surely there are lots of people in the Commentariat?


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> "I’ve been feeling for a while now that in order *to take my writing to the next level*, I needed to stop careering around chasing stories, go back to school and sit my bum down for some serious reading and nerding out. This fellowship is an unbelievable opportunity to do just that."
> 
> Oh man, I'm dying reading that.




She's very good at stringing cliches together, Let's hope she doesn't lose that skill at Harvard.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 30, 2014)

She's going to be the smartest girl at the smartest university, isn't she?

I wonder how she's funding it - I read a book about someone who did an expose on the Harvard MBA system and he reckoned with fees and living expenses it was $250k over two years to do it. They were churning out 900 students a year with that qualification a few years ago, might even be more now.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She's going to be the smartest girl at the smartest university, isn't she?


----------



## Balbi (May 1, 2014)

She's going to come back all Melanie Phillipsd up.


----------



## flypanam (May 1, 2014)

Balbi said:


> She's going to come back all Melanie Phillipsd up.



She might not want to come back. I'm sure she has dreams of working at NYT or even Harpers Magazine. Why limit one's genius to the UK when the USA is where all your buddies live.


----------



## J Ed (May 1, 2014)

flypanam said:


> She might not want to come back. I'm sure she has dreams of working at NYT or even Harpers Magazine. Why limit one's genius to the UK when the USA is where all your buddies live.



Good.


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

Politics of envy innit.


----------



## J Ed (May 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Politics of envy innit.



Some people actually have to work for a living, yah?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Politics of envy innit.


 
I wouldn't call it "politics."


----------



## J Ed (May 1, 2014)

Already has the Hitchens-style fauxcilist terminology down. I'm sure you will find plenty of comrades, Laurie.


----------



## benedict (May 1, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Already has the Hitchens-style fauxcilist terminology down. I'm sure you will find plenty of comrades, Laurie.




Urgh. To be honest I feel for the Harvard undergrads who are going to have to endure her sitting in on their classes.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 1, 2014)

i don't, they'll be cut from the same cloth.


----------



## Theisticle (May 1, 2014)

What dross (although fairly typical of the NS): http://www.newstatesman.com/society...et-married-until-we-have-equality-certificate


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 1, 2014)

if only she was going to Boston, Lincs for a few years.  That would give her a real education.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She's going to be the smartest girl at the smartest university, isn't she?
> 
> I wonder how she's funding it - I read a book about someone who did an expose on the Harvard MBA system and he reckoned with fees and living expenses it was $250k over two years to do it. They were churning out 900 students a year with that qualification a few years ago, might even be more now.



If you're the smartest person in the room, I'm told, that means you're in the wrong room.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



If he is promoting it with his number of followers on twitter, etc its unlikely to be a flop


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> if only she was going to Boston, Lincs for a few years.  That would give her a real education.


Going up and down the country for a couple of years, like Owen Jones but for real, could've been an interesting and useful bit of social history; examining effects of policies and inequities and letting people speak. The only potential snag would've been that she's not interested in people, hates 'em, especially them stupid fat fuck americans apart from the famous ones and those that can be used to advance her career.


> Americans are very strange. They can and do hyperventilate about the most everyday happenings as if they are the most important thing in the world, and then they act completely normal when public conversations are had about war on Iran and war on women's bodies and when Rick Santorum is considered a serious presidential candidate. The real heroes I've met in America are risking everything to make sure that the United States doesn't slide further into bigotry, inequality and violence whilst everyone is distracted by the everyday doings of celebrities.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2014)

We've got to talk about Kansas..


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> i don't, they'll be cut from the same cloth.



If only Walter Bishop were still teaching at Harvard....


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

"77th Nieman gang" is a baader meinhof allusion isn't it.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 1, 2014)

treelover said:


> We've got to talk about Kansas..


----------



## benedict (May 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> i don't, they'll be cut from the same cloth.



Not true. They may have a similar class background on average. But Laurie is an extreme outlier in terms of her annoyingness.


----------



## trabuquera (May 1, 2014)

Maybe she'll turn Christian fundie, Republican (Tea Party faction) or "surrendered wife" to a banker.


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> Maybe she'll turn Christian fundie, Republican (Tea Party faction) or "surrendered wife" to a banker.


why do we have to make up stuff? bit weird isn't it? especially that last one. urgh.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> especially that last one. urgh.


 
I don't even know what it means.


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

> Bragg is showing no sign of mellowing. “The fights that I’m picking aren’t getting any easier,” he smiles. “As I get older I see myself more and more as Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men. The one that says, okay, but what’s really happening here, let’s look a bit deeper.”


.


----------



## Balbi (May 1, 2014)

Yeah, but Henry Fonda's dead


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

12 Angry Braggs


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> "surrendered wife"


 
What does this mean please?


----------



## Idris2002 (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What does this mean please?



There was some idiot yank woman a few years back who published a book called 'the surrendered wife' which argued that the feminine ideal is to be a sort of inflatable doll who can cook. Part of the chronic backlash against those who criticise The Patriarchy.

In fairness to Laurie of House Penny, she's not daft enough to fall for that one.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> There was some idiot yank woman a few years back who published a book called 'the surrendered wife' which argued that the feminine ideal is to be a sort of inflatable doll who can cook. Part of the chronic backlash against those who criticise The Patriarchy..


 
Oh right.  Like _The Rules_ and that.  Definitely not LP's scene, have some respect for Christ's sake.


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2014)

it's fairly dodgy ground to be attacking a feminist on too (specially as it's totally made up). I reckon trabuqera needs to check his privilege.


----------



## smokedout (May 1, 2014)

> “The fights that I’m picking aren’t getting any easier,”



fearlessly taking on real power wherever it lies, like the kids who skateboard on the Southbank undercroft


----------



## seventh bullet (May 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> it's fairly dodgy ground to be attacking a feminist on too (specially as it's totally made up). I reckon trabuqera needs to check *his* privilege.



Isn't trabuqera a woman?


----------



## Theisticle (May 1, 2014)

Billy Brag is still a cunt: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/billy-bragg-ukip-bnp-scottish-3483239#.U2KCixjAqN8.twitter


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2014)

Opening para of that piece contains undisguised HnH propaganda - the sage was built with lottery money, the eu paid a tiny amount of the overall bill for other stuff ITA. Unsurprising given  Ros Wynne-Jones role with them i suppose.


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Isn't trabuqera a woman?




the wheel of oppression turns.


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

Someone needs to be a better ally.

That always makes me think of Ally's Tartan Army by Andy Cameron, which in turn makes me think of the b-side


----------



## Theisticle (May 1, 2014)

"Social media for journalists with Shiv Malik"

http://www.theguardian.com/guardian-masterclasses/social-media-for-journalists-shiv-malik-course

*Price:* £229 (includes VAT, booking fee, lunch and refreshments)


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> "Social media for journalists with Shiv Malik"




Broadcast a twitter appeal for information about big event

Hassle anybody who responds with endless emails begging for sensitive information
Ignore any helpful suggestions and leads, and just make stuff up on the fly 
That will be £114.50 please, Shiv 

_“It's all about hating on Tesco”_


----------



## rekil (May 1, 2014)

James also claims that Stalin killed more than Hitler therefore he's worse (but that doesn't mean James would've been objectively pro-nazi, or does it?)


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> .


Standing up to protect an innocent man vs trying to get a skatepark closed down - the similarities and uncanny.


----------



## J Ed (May 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> James also claims that Stalin killed more than Hitler therefore he's worse (but that doesn't mean James would've been objectively pro-nazi, or does it?)




James Bloodworth is one of those socialists whose socialism only seems to extend to declaring themselves socialists in order to attack socialists.


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 2, 2014)

J Ed said:


> James Bloodworth is one of those socialists whose socialism only seems to extend to declaring themselves socialists in order to attack socialists.


 
one of treelovers then


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 2, 2014)

J Ed said:


> James Bloodworth is one of those socialists whose socialism only seems to extend to declaring themselves socialists in order to attack socialists.





el-ahrairah said:


> one of treelovers then



Treelover is Xzibit?!


----------



## J Ed (May 5, 2014)

Homeless for six hours

Going to school is a little bit homelessness
Going to work is a little bit homelessness
Doing an overnighter at uni is a little bit homelessness
Spending the night in the pub is a little bit homelessness
Doing an ultra-marathon is a little bit athletic homelessness


----------



## Theisticle (May 5, 2014)

I admire her tenacity to function in the real-world without endlessly needing such Twitter updates. Oh wait...


----------



## equationgirl (May 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Homeless for six hours
> 
> Going to school is a little bit homelessness
> Going to work is a little bit homelessness
> ...



So if she'd caught the tube to Heathrow she wouldn't be homeless? How can she be homeless in the same city where she rents a room?

That's some serious facepalm action even by her own standards.


----------



## Theisticle (May 5, 2014)

Isn't moving to Boston to study now? So I guess technically she would be if she handed in her keys.


----------



## equationgirl (May 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Isn't moving to Boston to study now? So I guess technically she would be if she handed in her keys.


No, she's gone to some conference in Berlin until the end of the week. Doubt she'll be going out to the US until term starts in September.


----------



## captainmission (May 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


>




Surely this is perfect columnist fodder- _How my recent brush with homelessness bought home the horrors of the housing crisis. 
_
Soon to be followed by _How i understand the plight of stateless people having sat in a airport starbucks for an afternoon_


----------



## Bakunin (May 5, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Surely this is perfect columnist fodder- _How my recent brush with homelessness bought home the horrors of the housing crisis.
> _
> Soon to be followed by _How i understand the plight of stateless people having sat in a airport starbucks for an afternoon_



Soon to be followed by my own epic rebuttals

'I can write about being homeless because I actually have been.'

and

'Holiday Hell: My nightmarish experience of a couple of hours in Plymouth Ferryport departure lounge on my way to my annual holiday.'

That'll be £500 for each piece and some added underclass credibility Privilege Points, please. These Privilege Points can be translated into a Prada-Meinhof 'rebel sell' career opportunity or taken to the nearest Esso station for some free glasses and possibly a branded key ring or two. While stocks last.


----------



## frogwoman (May 5, 2014)

I had an argument with my mum, it was just like Ukraine


----------



## frogwoman (May 5, 2014)

My housemate told me to do the washing up, now I know how the Palestinians feel


----------



## frogwoman (May 5, 2014)

A ticket officer asked to see my ticket, Nazi Germany all over again


----------



## tbtommyb (May 5, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> i don't, they'll be cut from the same cloth.


If only it had been Princeton, she could have chatted to this chap: http://time.com/85933/why-ill-never-apologize-for-my-white-male-privilege/


----------



## Theisticle (May 5, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Surely this is perfect columnist fodder- _How my recent brush with homelessness bought home the horrors of the housing crisis.
> _
> Soon to be followed by _How i understand the plight of stateless people having sat in a airport starbucks for an afternoon_



"Gave a homeless man my sandwich. Now understand Kropotkin's theory of mutual aid. #smashcapitalism"

"Met inspiring teenager. Inspired her with words. She is beautiful. All women are beautiful. #smashpatriachy"

"Wore hijab in the house. Now understand how Muslim women feel about street harassment. #smashislamophobia"


----------



## Bakunin (May 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> "Gave a homeless man my sandwich. Now understand Kropotkin's theory of mutual aid. #smashcapitalism"
> 
> "Met inspiring teenager. Inspired her with words. She is beautiful. All women are beautiful. #smashpatriachy"
> 
> "Wore hijab in the house. Now understand how Muslim women feel about street harassment. #smashislamophobia"



It's great that it's possible for people to do so little, yet improve themselves so very, very much.

A shining example to us all, methinks.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 5, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> It's great that it's possible for people to do so little, yet improve themselves so very, very much.
> 
> A shining example to us all, methinks.


More of a shinning example







(Pictured: The Lez. Out of shot: Laurie)


----------



## DotCommunist (May 5, 2014)

tbf six hours stuck in babylondon waiting on a heathrow flight would be dredd- unless you have the money to go watch two films and eat some-whatever it is journywomen journos eat. Even if it was a mcdees. For the sake of argument. You could style the 6 hours out watching two films, having a meal and a spliff, then on to check in.

if you are poor you have to just read your airport thriller for six hours and hope to be interviewed by the beeb about travel chaos.

Fuck trying to get anywhere on a bank holiday weekend though. Stay in with supplies and tunes.

anyway...


----------



## captainmission (May 5, 2014)

get you with your no travel plans privilege


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 7, 2014)

Strap yourselves in, team, because I present to you...





















...wait for it...


















...are you sure you're ready?
























...Okay, here it comes...




















*VEGAN PRIVILEGE*


----------



## DotCommunist (May 7, 2014)

I likehow they've uses a suicide girls photo with the story. Really on-message that is


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I likehow they've uses a suicide girls photo with the story. Really on-message that is


I forgot the trigger warning


----------



## captainmission (May 7, 2014)

I once knew a trustifarian who on return from the Palestine gushed over what amazing vegan food they had there. It didn't occur to her the wonderful vegan diet was a result of crushing poverty and not having land to rear animals on. But now i wonder how i can be a good ally to oppressed meat eating settlers?


----------



## J Ed (May 8, 2014)

captainmission said:


> I once knew a trustifarian who on return from the Palestine gushed over what amazing vegan food they had there. It didn't occur to her the wonderful vegan diet was a result of crushing poverty and not having land to rear animals on. But now i wonder how i can be a good ally to oppressed meat eating settlers?



Once heard something similar from someone coming back from holiday in Cuba, it was fun telling them that all those beans were probably cooked in stock made of meat.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2014)




----------



## xenon (May 8, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Surely this is perfect columnist fodder- _How my recent brush with homelessness bought home the horrors of the housing crisis.
> _
> Soon to be followed by _How i understand the plight of stateless people having sat in a airport starbucks for an afternoon_




The Sunday Format got there years ago. 

These peple are so Self regarding and painfully unaware. Seemingly socialising only in a bubble of likeminds.


----------



## rekil (May 9, 2014)

Anyone for a lecture from comrade Laurie Penny at entrepreneurial wankfest republica? This is what she's interested in atm apparently.



I made it as far as the 2nd slide where snide, irrelevant, sexist and worst of all, unfunny, remarks about middle class fashion of 1913 were made.





Spoiler: Video


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2014)

22 minutes - claims she blurred the name of SWP from a picture of f15 banners on a picture that she she found on the internet with them already blurred (ineptly) because 'they are rape denialists'. She uses this piece to say that voting doesn't matter. This follows on from the wilding davison piece in which she argues that voting is crucial.


----------



## rekil (May 9, 2014)

It's peculiar that Oxford's lackadaisical attitude to rape culture is not being challenged with quite the same vigour as say, the SWP and their paper sellers. It doesn't do to shit on one's own doorstep what.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 9, 2014)

copliker said:


> It doesn't do to shit on one's own doorstep what.



My dear chap, _it simply isn't done._


----------



## rekil (May 9, 2014)

Sharing "cigarettes, phone numbers and anecdotes" freely is a little bit communism.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/09/mix-it-how-make-friends-20s


----------



## smokedout (May 10, 2014)

Owen Jones was on the  Daily Politics yesterday sparring with James Delingpole like they were old chums.  Then up popped Oxbridge twat Tom Hodgekinson, editor of The Idler, talking about Peter Kropotkin, who he portrayed as some soft hippy libertarian who didn't like governments or big corporations much to the delight of Delingpole who said he sounds like my kinda guy, Owen chortled along happily letting this revisionist bullshit go unchallenged before an embarrassingly optimistic Dave Nellist was on talking about the TUSC whilst Owen Jones explained why everyone should join the Labour Party.  If that wasn't enough Nick Griffin was up next in full on conspiraloon mode blaming the BNP implosion on a Labour/BBC plot and saying the EDL were a created as part of a Zionist conspiracy.  I'm not sure I have anything to add to any of it, just felt the need to post to get it off my chest and check that that all really did happen in just one hour of television.


----------



## smokedout (May 10, 2014)

Owen was worst by the way, he's right in the heart of it now, Andrew Neil's little pet, Delingpole's chum, no genuine anger, no real politics, no contempt for where and who he's found himself with, no nothing, just him, grinning like a cunt


----------



## treelover (May 10, 2014)

Sounds like a right shambles


----------



## treelover (May 10, 2014)

smokedout said:


> Owen was worst by the way, he's right in the heart of it now, Andrew Neil's little pet, Delingpole's chum, no genuine anger, no real politics, no contempt for where and who he's found himself with, no nothing, just him, grinning like a cunt




There are quite a few on here who think he is a good sort.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> There are quite a few on here who think he is a good sort.


Not on this thread though. Haven't seen any 'I heart Owen' posts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Not on this thread though. Haven't seen any 'I heart Owen' posts.



In fact, while some posters have stated that they respect his position, many of us have said that because of his support for the whole "vote Labour with no illusions" _schtick_, and everything *that* means in terms of doing nothing to sort out the current lack of democracy, we can't support him or his "movement".


----------



## tim (May 11, 2014)

smokedout said:


> Owen Jones was on the  Daily Politics yesterday sparring with James Delingpole like they were old chums.  Then up popped Oxbridge twat Tom Hodgekinson, editor of The Idler, talking about Peter Kropotkin, who he portrayed as some soft hippy libertarian who didn't like governments or big corporations much to the delight of Delingpole who said he sounds like my kinda guy, Owen chortled along happily letting this revisionist bullshit go unchallenged before an embarrassingly optimistic Dave Nellist was on talking about the TUSC ...........



Embarrassingly optimistic or not, at least Dave Nellist is someone articulate from the real left. Perhaps we need to be embarrassingly optimistic sometimes. Anyway here's the Nellist extract.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> In fact, while some posters have stated that they respect his position, many of us have said that because of his support for the whole "vote Labour with no illusions" _schtick_, and everything *that* means in terms of doing nothing to sort out the current lack of democracy, we can't support him or his "movement".




in a nutshell there vp. I'd never consider the man List material but I do find his 'we will save labour' thing a bit bust


----------



## tim (May 11, 2014)

How patronizing!


----------



## weepiper (May 11, 2014)

Pip Borev doing a sterling job of winding up the intellectuals here (he is gay btw)


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2014)

Watch of much of this vid as you can - then go right to the end and look at card with the address of the filmers site (at about 5:10)


----------



## Theisticle (May 12, 2014)

I thought Penny was too old to write about student issues now? 

http://www.newstatesman.com/education/2014/05/laurie-penny-how-pass-your-damn-exams


----------



## trabuquera (May 12, 2014)

smokedout said:


> Owen was worst by the way, he's right in the heart of it now, Andrew Neil's little pet, Delingpole's chum, no genuine anger, no real politics, no contempt for where and who he's found himself with, no nothing, just him, grinning like a cunt



mmm, because nothing will win the tellywatching masses over to real socialism like a good hard grumbling from a stony faced angry bloke who'll bash the table and disapprove of everything and everyone around him...


----------



## cesare (May 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Watch of much of this vid as you can - then go right to the end and look at card with the address of the filmers site (at about 5:10)


"Exposing the lunacy of the left, and various other tidbits"


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> mmm, because nothing will will the tellywatching masses over to real socialism like a good hard grumbling from a stony faced angry bloke who'll bash the table and disapprove of everything and everyone around him...


nothing will will what?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2014)

cesare said:


> "Exposing the lunacy of the left, and various other tidbits"


titbits


----------



## cesare (May 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> titbits


Tell it to "laughingatliberals"


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>


LGBTIQQAA h8r


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> LGBTIQQAA h8r


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>


Don't despair completely - you've pulled back from the abyss with self-censorship bonus points, plus self-flagellation smilies!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Don't despair completely - you've pulled back from the abyss with self-censorship bonus points, plus self-flagellation smilies!


abyss interruptus


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

That takes abyss kit


----------



## cesare (May 12, 2014)

Can someone with more patience with acronyms tell me what the difference between LGBTIQQAA and QUILTBAG is?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2014)

one is pronounceable as a word
?


----------



## weepiper (May 12, 2014)

Lesbian Gay Bi Trans Intersex Queer give in give in give in, and Queer Intersex Lesbian Trans Bi And Genderqueer, I think.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2014)

Questioning, Ally and Another A


----------



## cesare (May 12, 2014)

QUILTBAG's easier to remember


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

cesare said:


> QUILTBAG's easier to remember


But SCUM was easier still


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I thought Penny was too old to write about student issues now?
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/education/2014/05/laurie-penny-how-pass-your-damn-exams


More lies:



> I’m not the smartest person I know


----------



## cesare (May 12, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> But SCUM was easier still


True  Das Uberdog doesn't know he's born tbf


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I thought Penny was too old to write about student issues now?
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/education/2014/05/laurie-penny-how-pass-your-damn-exams




She's gone back to uni so presumably is back in the student milue (never can spell that word)


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

cesare said:


> True  Das Uberdog doesn't know he's born tbf


Born?! Oxygen-sucking privilege


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> (never can spell that word)



Can't-be-arsed-to-USE-A-FUCKING-DICTIONARY privilege


----------



## cesare (May 12, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Born?! Oxygen-sucking privilege


Sucked into the non-white hole of the Y chromosome


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2014)

Have the commentariat had anything to say about the Ukraine btw? Any of them? They've had 6 months now. One of them must have said something?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2014)

i don't think the goodie/baddie lines are drawn clearly enough to allow for hashtagged hectoring


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2014)

Waiting to hear back from Pravy Sector and Donétskaya Naródnaya Respúblika what their safe spaces policies are. Still no response


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2014)

Just before we go onto discuss the Ukraine (no, can't remember any of the commentariat bothering their arse about it), I thought this section of Penny's article was massively patronising:



> Private and public schools push pupils hard to sit and resit papers until they get the grades. The other reason is confidence. If you grow up hearing that you’re smart, that you matter, that you can do anything you set your mind to, you’re more likely to walk into your exams with the sense of calm assurance you need to get through them.
> 
> It’s that same confidence that carries better-off kids through life with the understanding that they can take risks, reach for their goals, and things will probably be OK.  Which makes it doubly unfair, of course, because growing up with money and connections makes it more likely that mediocre exam results won’t have a big impact on your future.


----------



## weepiper (May 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Just before we go to discuss the Ukraine (no, can't remember any of the commentariat bothering their arse about it), I thought this section of Penny's article was massively patronising:



It _is _patronising. Poor parents don't tell our children that they're smart, that they matter, that they can do anything they set their mind to, oh no.


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It _is _patronising. Poor parents don't tell our children that they're smart, that they matter, that they can do anything they set their mind to, oh no.


I made the mistake of reading her 'top tips'. Shockingly bad is number 3:


> The final trick is the most important, not just for your exams but for the life you intend to lead after time’s up and results are in. Once you have learned how to pass exams, you must learn how not to pass exams. Exams are a pernicious, awful hazing ritual designed to produce compliant drones who can give answers on cue, but not doing your best at them only hurts you, so if you really want to beat the system, you have to remember that your real education takes place outside the exam hall. It’s about reading widely, thinking deeply, asking hard questions rather than simply giving the right answers with a smile. If you truly understand that exams are pointless, you can beat them not just in practice but also in principle. Good luck.



Exams aren't pointless. And describing them as a 'hazing ritual designed to produce compliant drones' isn't helpful either. They're a means to an end. They're not the be all and end all by a long shot. Given her obvious hatred of them I'm surprised she's opted to go back and do a whole lot of hard exams at a hard university.


----------



## weepiper (May 12, 2014)

Acht. I disagree with her fundamentally anyway. I like exams. I chose to take an extra course module/exam rather than do a dissertation because I work _better _under pressure


----------



## rekil (May 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Have the commentariat had anything to say about the Ukraine btw? Any of them? They've had 6 months now. One of them must have said something?


We should do one ourselves. "Enough with Ukraine already! No matter what happens, the winner will be whiteness"


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Acht. I disagree with her fundamentally anyway. I like exams. I chose to take an extra course module/exam rather than do a dissertation because I work _better _under pressure


It's the thought of some poor panicky teenager reading it made me


----------



## frogwoman (May 12, 2014)

An intersrctional analysis of right sector


----------



## DotCommunist (May 13, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I made the mistake of reading her 'top tips'. Shockingly bad is number 3:
> 
> 
> Exams aren't pointless. And describing them as a 'hazing ritual designed to produce compliant drones' isn't helpful either. They're a means to an end. They're not the be all and end all by a long shot. Given her obvious hatred of them I'm surprised she's opted to go back and do a whole lot of hard exams at a hard university.



its lit., so it'll be essays over exams I'd have assumed


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Waiting to hear back from Pravy Sector and Donétskaya Naródnaya Respúblika what their safe spaces policies are. Still no response


 
What pravy sektor and Donetskaya Narodnaya Respublika really need is a facilitator so they can explain how they really feel about their interlocking systems of privilege


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What pravy sektor and Donetskaya Narodnaya Respublika really need is a facilitator so they can explain how they really feel about their interlocking systems of privilege


One step ahead of you there:


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2014)

I also want to know why Putin didn't put a trigger warning before his speech about crimea


----------



## J Ed (May 13, 2014)

For me the real question is Pravy Sector's position on raceplay and call out culture. Also, are at least 50% of their torturers cis males? Problematic.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Have the commentariat had anything to say about the Ukraine btw? Any of them? They've had 6 months now. One of them must have said something?


IIRC Crabapple was cheering on the Maiden protesters, and the anti-gov protestors in Venezuela.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I also want to know why Putin didn't put a trigger warning before his speech about crimea


He's merely following the example of Lyudmila. She certainly never gave a trigger warning!


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2014)

J Ed said:


> For me the real question is Pravy Sector's position on raceplay and call out culture. Also, are at least 50% of their torturers cis males? Problematic.



Yeah I think activists everywhere should be asking why pravy sector don't make their torturers more representative


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I think activists everywhere should be asking why pravy sector don't make their torturers more representative


Say what you will about the Nazis, they were big on equality of opportunity in some fields


Spoiler: SEXUALISED NAZI TRIGGER WARNING!


----------



## fractionMan (May 13, 2014)

Is it wrong that I want to watch that?


----------



## fractionMan (May 13, 2014)

less so now I've read the review:



> medical torture was carried out by the Nazis but this movie is not like Men behind the sun, and you will be left questioning the authenticity of Ilsas source


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 13, 2014)

I see some anarchist conference in Portland saw a shouty twitter/tumblr style row erupt in real life. One of the pannelists, who seems to be a crimethinc sort, had written a controversial article on the usual hot button issues, so protestors stopped him from speaking. Lots of shouting and chanting and then allegations that cops were called etc. Note that the meeting wasn't about the controversial issues.

Music of the future.


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I see some anarchist conference in Portland saw a shouty twitter/tumblr style row erupt in real life. One of the pannelists, who seems to be a crimethinc sort, had written a controversial article on the usual hot button issues, so protestors stopped him from speaking. Lots of shouting and chanting and then allegations that cops were called etc. Note that the meeting wasn't about the controversial issues.
> 
> Music of the future.


Keep up lad. Posted on here days ago and a whole other thread.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Keep up lad. Posted on here days ago and a whole other thread.



That's what I get for only looking at the bike race thread for a few days


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 13, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I see some anarchist conference in Portland saw a shouty twitter/tumblr style row erupt in real life. One of the pannelists, who seems to be a crimethinc sort, had written a controversial article on the usual hot button issues, so protestors stopped him from speaking. Lots of shouting and chanting and then allegations that cops were called etc. Note that the meeting wasn't about the controversial issues.



*coff*

PS Don't think he has anything to do with CrimethInc, though there was an exchange of articles on the use of language.


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Say what you will about the Nazis, they were big on equality of opportunity in some fields
> 
> 
> Spoiler: SEXUALISED NAZI TRIGGER WARNING!
> ...



I think Pravy Sector need to apologise to the bdsm community for not having more people like that in their ranks, Barkashov too, he's basically the Helen Lewis of fascism


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> ...basically the Helen Lewis of fascism



If I was Alexander Barkashov I would _totally_ have that as my twitter tagline!


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> If I was Alexander Barkashov I would _totally_ have that as my twitter tagline!



That's where they're going wrong, if the fash in Eastern Europe really wanted to enact the labour of social change in order to fight heterogeneity and promote white privilege they would be calling each other out on Twitter instead of murdering people on the streets and gaining access to the corridors of power - oh hold on...


----------



## Idris2002 (May 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's where they're going wrong, if the fash in Eastern Europe really wanted to enact the labour of social change in order to fight heterogeneity and promote white privilege they would be calling each other out on Twitter instead of murdering people on the streets and gaining access to the corridors of power - oh hold on...


----------



## purves grundy (May 13, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It _is _patronising. Poor parents don't tell our children that they're smart, that they matter, that they can do anything they set their mind to, oh no.


She's giving us the habitus lowdown.

Rather badly.


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2014)

purves grundy said:


> She's giving us the habitus lowdown.
> 
> Rather badly.


She has no idea about _habitus - _she's an english lit grad. She is simply describing how she views privilege as working (or rather, she is describing one way in which she thinks it works on its own). Badly.


----------



## The Pale King (May 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She has no idea about _habitus - _she's an english lit grad. She is simply describing how she views privilege as working (or rather, she is describing one way in which she thinks it works on its own). Badly.


 
Yes. I may be reading too much into her views, but there seems to be a taken-for-granted equation between moral goodness and being well-off - i.e there is an automatic and unproblematic relationship between social class and childhood encouragement / education.

I agree with Weepiper that it is incredibly patronising (worthy of Mrs Jellyby in fact) and it's also _total fucking bollocks_.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 13, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yes. I may be reading too much into her views, but there seems to be a taken-for-granted equation between moral goodness and being well-off - i.e there is an automatic and unproblematic relationship between social class and childhood encouragement / education.
> 
> I agree with Weepiper that it is incredibly patronising (worthy of Mrs Jellyby in fact) and it's also _total fucking bollocks_.



 can't remember why I had the semi epiphany but something I read prompted me to think of this- a tendency that I too often fall into of treating capitalism as some sort of moral failure- as if we could make good of it all by persuading rich people to just stop being greedy. Petitioning the King to sack his bad advisors and rule fairly again. When actually we need his head on a spike and his advisors trapped in the palace as we burn it.

But seriously, the idea of right wingery and capitalist society as a moral failure rather than a structural set up. Must watch myself on that one, its too easy to suppose there are just bad people who need to be nicer.


----------



## Ole (May 13, 2014)

*Harvard’s Kennedy School Adds Privilege-Checking to New-Student Orientation*

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/05/harvard-adds-privilege-checking-to-orientation.html



> “We’re at one of the most powerful institutions in the world, yet we never critically examine power and privilege and what it means to have access to this power,” says Reetu Mody, a first-year masters student in public policy and a campus activist. “We’re excited to have the administration on board for training all Harvard Kennedy School first years.”
> 
> ....
> 
> She says most of the resistance to discussing privilege comes from those who (mistakenly) believe it’s about making individuals feel guilty. That’s why Mody thinks Kennedy School of Government makes a good pilot program for institutionalized privilege-checking. *For them, examining the world and your position in it isn’t just a feel-good liberal intellectual exercise; it’s a practical tool for people who hope to be leaders.*



Thank you, Reetu Mody. We need more enlightened leaders.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 13, 2014)

Ole said:


> *Harvard’s Kennedy School Adds Privilege-Checking to New-Student Orientation*
> 
> http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/05/harvard-adds-privilege-checking-to-orientation.html
> 
> ...


Jesus


----------



## The Pale King (May 14, 2014)

"Last month, they held a privilege walk: 77 students occupied the school’s courtyard, where two facilitators led a “privilege visualization exercise*.”*


----------



## Wilf (May 14, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "Last month, they held a privilege walk: 77 students occupied the school’s courtyard, where two facilitators led a “privilege visualization exercise*.”*


Says it all really. _'Visualise'_ it - why not just look at each other?


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2014)

“If you don’t have an understanding of sociology, political science, critical race theory, feminist critique, and *revisionist history,*”


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2014)

They don't mean _that _stuff - they just mean stuff that challenges the dominant narratives of history. That is a shocking attempt to enclose socially progressive politics to elites. About as reactionary as you can get.


----------



## Theisticle (May 14, 2014)

Over 1,600 words spent saying very little. What a chore to read.

http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...eing-called-racist-nothing-dealing-boko-haram


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2014)

I know we really need to move on from penny but it's so hard to when she does this:



> Johnson is right that apology ought to count for something, and I’ve found that an honest, rapid, unqualified sorry, backed up by a conscious effort to change one's actions, is generally accepted in good faith.


----------



## Theisticle (May 14, 2014)

Also, why are the NS focusing on second-wave feminism? Seems rather irrelevant. Plus Helen Lewis fawns over a transphobe like Germaine Greer. 



> It is questionable whether even Greer herself would agree with what she wrote in _The Whole Woman_, but there are still radical feminists who dispute whether someone born male can ever be a woman. There is also a broader question: what is gender, anyway? If there is no such thing as a "female brain", what does it mean to identify as a woman?


http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-l...nd-wave-why-feminism-needs-respect-its-elders

IIRC, Greer never apologised for transphobia.

This explains so much:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jan/26/germaine-greer-female-eunuch-feminists-influence


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 14, 2014)

that's fucking hilarious!

butcher's quote, that is.

Theisticle  - was greer actually transphobic or, is it that she questions whether gender is a cultural thing and more than just what genitals you have or what you want it to be?


----------



## seventh bullet (May 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> “If you don’t have an understanding of sociology, political science, critical race theory, feminist critique, and *revisionist history,*”



Revisionism in historical research has been a good, fruitful and respectable thing (and I don't mean it in an exclusive middle class way). See the historians of the Soviet Union who helped many to see beyond the inadequate totalitarian model. It's Holocaust deniers, in the main, who have tried to use 'revisionism' as a respectable cloak for their filth.


----------



## treelover (May 14, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "Last month, they held a privilege walk: 77 students occupied the school’s courtyard, where two facilitators led a “privilege visualization exercise*.”*




I wonder what Naomi Klein makes of it, all that work, was it in vain?


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "Last month, they held a privilege walk: 77 students occupied the school’s courtyard, where two facilitators led a “privilege visualization exercise*.”*


They played the PD game didn't they


----------



## Balbi (May 15, 2014)

Twitter types, Sam Ambreen wrote a piece about ushering in fascism and Helen Lewis. LP has just said...



Oh dear Laurie


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Twitter types, Ambreen wrote a piece about Helen Lewis and ushering in fascism. LP has just said...
> 
> View attachment 53911
> 
> Oh dear.


seems to me that la penny has no class analysis worth the name if she's siding with her boss.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


>


*makes tracks for forbidden planet*


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

She (the ambreen) said that 'socialists' want to do another nazi style genocide. That piece that was supposed to be on fascism was a disgraceful joke.



> Nazi Germany happened because the Germans were concerned only with themselves. Under the guise of socialism (alarm bells) they convinced an entire nation that the Jews were vermin. Just like our socialists have been doing this past year about us. It was as Pastor Niemoller said.


----------



## J Ed (May 15, 2014)

Late conversion to Posadism?


----------



## cesare (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She (the ambreen) said that 'socialists' want to do another nazi style genocide. That piece that was supposed to be on fascism was a joke.


Oh my word


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Late conversion to Posadism?



I think we'll be needing a rigorous course of self-criticism and naming of where the bodies are who put them there about her ex-mates (an ever expanding group i believe) first.


----------



## Theisticle (May 15, 2014)

LOL, always making it about herself.


----------



## J Ed (May 15, 2014)

> Of course I hope I am wrong here but when future generations ask how it was possible that so many non-white people were terrorised and murdered by the English (this century), the answer will be the same as it was for Nazi Germany. The liberals and lefties let it happen. They allowed for the kind of rhetoric that othered anyone who was not able, wealthy and white. They lied about why it was happening; it’s not class war, Helen, it’s white supremacy.



Sam Ambreen please read any basic history of the interwar period of Germany. You are very confused, I know some of this confusion is deliberate but not all of it is.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 15, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> *makes tracks for forbidden planet*



NEVER TO RETURN


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> NEVER TO RETURN


----------



## J Ed (May 15, 2014)

Stupid interwar lefties like Rosa Luxemburg, saying everything was about class and letting noble WoCs be othered by white supremacists like Helen Lewis


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Stupid interwar lefties like Rosa Luxemburg, saying everything was about class and letting noble WoCs be othered by white supremacists like Helen Lewis


and lewis's lickspittle associate, laurie penny.


----------



## J Ed (May 15, 2014)

It was like Stalingrad all over again


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It was like Stalingrad all over again


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Stupid interwar lefties like Rosa Luxemburg, saying everything was about class and letting noble WoCs be othered by white supremacists like Helen Lewis


Nearly a million arrested for active resistance in the 12 years of the regime - thousands killed opposing them in the streets before the regime. All otherers. I would be fearful of  an anti-fascism based on twitter myself. I'd rather trust to the otherers.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 15, 2014)

_First they came for the communists, but I ignored that and denounced them for being racists on my blog._


----------



## agricola (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nearly a million arrested for active resistance in the 12 years of the regime - thousands killed opposing them in the streets before the regime. All otherers. I would be fearful of  an anti-fascism based on twitter myself. I'd rather trust to the otherers.



Whose tweets?  Our tweets.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

agricola said:


> Whose tweets?  Our tweets.


You've been saving him haven't you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Sam Ambreen please read any basic history of the interwar period of Germany. You are very confused, I know some of this confusion is deliberate but not all of it is.



Yeah, but who is history written by, eh?  It's written by middle class white people!


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> _First they came for the communists, but I ignored that and denounced them for being racists on my blog._


30 000 kpd resistance linked deaths (going with a conservative figure). That stupid post of hers has really pissed me off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nearly a million arrested for active resistance in the 12 years of the regime - thousands killed opposing them in the streets before the regime. All otherers. I would be fearful of  an anti-fascism based on twitter myself. I'd rather trust to the otherers.



I'm fearful of any anti-fascism that is based solely in the virtual world, because it means that if we ever return to the kind of "street battle" atmosphere of the '70s, most of these mugs will stay at home.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

we aren't seeing that. We aren't even seeing BM style hitler cults. Its church and king mobs, deffo-not-racist patriot movements and...well. The second part of the 'first as tragedy' line.

Is it not fair to say that any time a far right street presence is seen the antis outnumber the boneys and the coppers protecting them?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> 30 000 kpd resistance linked deaths (going with a conservative figure). That stupid post of hers has really pissed me off.



And then you've got the thousands executed at places like Plotzensee who weren't necessarily leftist, but were resisters nonetheless.
Of course, Plotzensee also did for quite a few citizens of "Greater Germany" who'd done nothing more than not "heil Hitlering" loudly enough, or expressing a lack of enthusiasm for _ersatz_ coffee.


----------



## rekil (May 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Sam Ambreen please read any basic history of the interwar period of Germany. You are very confused, I know some of this confusion is deliberate but not all of it is.


Look at her profile pic ffs, where does she think that logo originated?


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

Would Owen Jones have to agree to this being used (and presumably getting paid/or the guardian getting paid) by the gay murdering Iranian theocracy?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> we aren't seeing that. We aren't even seeing BM style hitler cults. Its church and king mobs, deffo-not-racist patriot movements and...well. The second part of the 'first as tragedy' line.
> 
> Is it not fair to say that any time a far right street presence is seen the antis outnumber the boneys and the coppers protecting them?



It *has* been the case, but I'd argue that for the last 20 years or so, that's been solely down to better comms and logistics by the anti-fascists.  There seem to be fewer (IMO/IME) non-aligned anti-fascist taking part than before.
As for back in the '70s, it really depended on how long the logistics chain was/how much "warning" was given of a demo.  Sometimes the coppers outnumbered the fascists and the anti-fascist in total!


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Look at her profile pic ffs, where does she think that logo originated?


Oh yes, good spot.


----------



## caleb (May 15, 2014)

This has been bugging me for a while, right: does "white supremacist" have any meaning in a Brit / European context? It's not to say that there isn't racism in Britain / Europe, but to what extent is that racism based upon a unified, coherent notion of 'whiteness' (at it undoubtedly is in the States?). Because I'd say the history of racism in Europe has been a bit more complicated than that.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

caleb said:


> This has been bugging me for a while, right: does "white supremacist" have any meaning in a Brit / European context? It's not to say that there isn't racism in Britain / Europe, but to what extent is that racism based upon a unified, coherent notion of 'whiteness' (at it undoubtedly is in the States?). Because I'd say the history of racism in Europe has been a bit more complicated than that.



where are you coming from? certainly the idea of an aryan 'proper white' has been relegated to the lower leagues of nazi freaks but recall what WASP meant- the P bit is important because the irish were still on the lower rung of race and power relations when those kkk lot got going.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

caleb said:


> This has been bugging me for a while, right: does "white supremacist" have any meaning in a Brit / European context? It's not to say that there isn't racism in Britain / Europe, but to what extent is that racism based upon a unified, coherent notion of 'whiteness' (at it undoubtedly is in the States?). Because I'd say the history of racism in Europe has been a bit more complicated than that.


As a central functional structuring element  of the way society is/was organised - none. None at all. The comparison with how capitalism developed, how it divided the w/c, it's legitimation process, it's system of aggressive cultural identification in the US is barmy.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> where are you coming from? certainly the idea of an aryan 'proper white' has been relegated to the lower leagues of nazi freaks but recall what WASP meant- the P bit is important because the irish were still on the lower rung of race and power relations when those kkk lot got going.


WASP is not a GB term. It's a US term. It has no meaning in this country.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

caleb said:


> This has been bugging me for a while, right: does "white supremacist" have any meaning in a Brit / European context? It's not to say that there isn't racism in Britain / Europe, but to what extent is that racism based upon a unified, coherent notion of 'whiteness' (at it undoubtedly is in the States?). Because I'd say the history of racism in Europe has been a bit more complicated than that.




I'd also say that despite the fact that class and race relations more nakedly fracture in a US context, it doesn't mean it isn't the same here. The stats on stop search, diagnoses of schitz for black people, jail numbers and makeup etc don't show a more pleasant picture. There is a significan't difference if we want to look at the experience of afro-Caribbean 3rd gen immigrants to britain and the ex-slave thing going on with american black people. For one the black people of this country hadn't had a systematically destroyed culture (yes I know the colonial era of brits in the carribean was just that) but in a modern context its hard to compare them. I hope that makes sense- no moral equivalence either- I'm just saying how it looks to me. Vile in either case but markedly different


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd also say that despite the fact that class and race relations more nakedly fracture in a US context, it doesn't mean it isn't the same here. The stats on stop search, diagnoses of schitz for black people, jail numbers and makeup etc don't show a more pleasant picture. There is a significan't difference if we want to look at the experience of afro-Caribbean 3rd gen immigrants to britain and the ex-slave thing going on with american black people. For one the black people of this country hadn't had a systematically destroyed culture (yes I know the colonial era of brits in the carribean was just that) but in a modern context its hard to compare them. I hope that makes sense- no moral equivalence either- I'm just saying how it looks to me. Vile in either case but markedly different


White _supremacy_ - not racism.


----------



## caleb (May 15, 2014)

What I mean is you'll find British "intersectionalists" talking about race in the UK as if there is a clear "black" (inc. South Asian, Middle Eastern) / "white" divide - with all "white" people benefiting from racism and all "black" people being the victims of the same sort of racism. I think it's taking US racial categories and shoehorning in British demographics.

On St. Patrick's Day I stumbled across a few twitter posts from (British) users going like "oh God, St. Patrick's, when white people pretend to be a minority..." and then ripping some sub-_How the Irish Became White _yarn... even though, obviously, that has nothing to do with Irish people in the UK. But then you'll see on Sam Ambreen's blog she suggests that the British state now consider s"all non-white people terrorists" - is that at all true? And if it is, how do you factor in the treatment of Irish communities in the UK during the troubles, were they white or non-white?


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

caleb said:


> What I mean is you'll find British "intersectionalists" talking about race in the UK as if there is a clear "black" (inc. South Asian, Middle Eastern) / "white" divide - with all "white" people benefiting from racism and all "black" people being the victims of the same sort of racism. I think it's taking US racial categories and shoehorning in British demographics.
> 
> On St. Patrick's Day I stumbled across a few twitter posts from (British) users going like "oh God, St. Patrick's, when white people pretend to be a minority..." and then ripping some sub-_How the Irish Became White _yarn... even though, obviously, that has nothing to do with Irish people in the UK. But then you'll see on Sam Ambreen's blog she suggests that the British state now consider s"all non-white people terrorists" - is that at all true? And if it is, how do you factor in the treatment of Irish communities in the UK during the troubles, were they white or non-white?


If i remember right, when she was told i was irish during her brief sojourn on here she gave some mad essentialist bollocks about gerry adams. Suggests to me that it's not really followed through in any coherent fashion - it is a _fashion _though.


----------



## cesare (May 15, 2014)




----------



## smokedout (May 15, 2014)

I was thinking about this the other day, couldn't it be said that anti-racism is in some way structural to neo-liberalism, as in the best wo/man for the job, in a free, flexible and competitive labour market.  This would be in tension with the necessary class relations, but I'm not sure that matters and it also won't function because of institutional and personal racism, but I find it hard to see how racism is likely to be a stuctural component of the way capitalism is developing  (unlike sexism which is part of the structural nature of neo-liberalism due to the value of profit making work over socially reproductive work).  or perhaps I'm taling bollocks.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

smokedout said:


> I was thinking about this the other day, couldn't it be said that anti-racism is in some way structural to neo-liberalism, as in the best wo/man for the job, in a free, flexible and competitive labour market.  This would be in tension with the necessary class relations, but I'm not sure that matters and it also won't function because of institutional and personal racism, but I find it hard to see how racism is likely to be a stuctural component of the way capitalism is developing  (unlike sexism which is part of the structural nature of neo-liberalism due to the value of profit making work over socially reproductive work).  or perhaps I'm taling bollocks.


Nope, you're not talking bollocks  -see Walter Benn Michaels and others - a good part of the non-loon US left are starting to get this now.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 15, 2014)

cesare said:


>



_Must. . . resist. . .urge to post. . . Irish ape cartoon. . ._


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> White _supremacy_ - not racism.




do you mean a doctrine of racial superiority rather than the generalised smelly food xenephobia? cos if so then I'm totally addressing a different point to the one raised. Again.


----------



## killer b (May 15, 2014)

I've noticed that a lot of pro-immigration arguments people spout come from an essentially neo-lib viewpoint - the one that's been irking me recently is the one about how immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, as if the economy is all that matters. Who's economy?


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> do you mean a doctrine of racial superiority rather than the generalised smelly food xenephobia? cos if so then I'm totally addressing a different point to the one raised. Again.


White supremacy is a way of managing organising and reproducing the interests of the dominant class - classcially in the US. It means society is organised _on the basis of _it - rather than society having expressions of racism but that aren't functional to the system.


----------



## caleb (May 15, 2014)

killer b said:


> I've noticed that a lot of pro-immigration arguments people spout come from an essentially neo-lib viewpoint - the one that's been irking me recently is the one about how immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, as if the economy is all that matters. Who's economy?



Yep. Or the arguments around sex work as a form of individual freedom / bodily autonomy. Yeah, don't do the radfem thing and hate on sex workers but it's easy enough to do that without bending the stick that far the other way.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> White supremacy is a way of managing organising and reproducing the interests of the dominant class - classcially in the US. It means society is organised _on the basis of _it - rather than society having expressions of racism but that aren't functional to the system.



now that makes some sense- britain bringing in a large afro carribean contingent do the work. In which case a doctrine of racial superiority would work against capital interests, and common-and-garden non 'special theory' xenephobia works against the interest of the dominant class who want more labour, more cheap, but are not afraid to use the resultant tensions to further purely political aims.

I do hope I have this right, I've spent all day trying to square how capital speaks and how capital operates and what that means for us. Bloody hard work, I would stick to jokes but sometimes you have to think rather than wisecrack.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

killer b said:


> I've noticed that a lot of pro-immigration arguments people spout come from an essentially neo-lib viewpoint - the one that's been irking me recently is the one about how immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, as if the economy is all that matters. Who's economy?



that can often translate into views about the lazy brit worker vs the hard working foriegner.


----------



## smokedout (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nope, you're not talking bollocks  -see Walter Benn Michaels and others - a good part of the non-loon US left are starting to get this now.



cheers, liked that, not sure he's quite correct about sexism



> If, for example, you are looking to promote someone as Head of Sales in your company and you are choosing between a straight white male and a black lesbian, and the latter is in fact a better salesperson than the former, racism, sexism and homophobia may tell you to choose the straight white male but capitalism tells you to go with the black lesbian.



what if she's pregnant or a single parent?


----------



## frogwoman (May 15, 2014)

Thing is that if,me and ViolentPanda wanted for example we could accuse anyone who disagreed with us of antisemitism, thing is that way of arguing makes me feel really uncomfortable, like calling someone a paedophile because they didn't agree with you


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

smokedout said:


> cheers, liked that, not sure he's quite correct about sexism
> 
> 
> 
> what if she's pregnant or a single parent?


I'm sure they can come up with something. He has whole books that do address this though - that was just a quick intro to the idea. The reproductive/productive thing - capital is battering down those doors right now. And part of that is commodifying things precisely things like childcare.


----------



## smokedout (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm sure they can come up with something. He has whole books that do address this though - that was just a quick intro to the idea. The reproductive/productive thing - capital is battering down those doors right now. And part of that is commodifying things precisely things like childcare.



I wondered if that meant wet nursing may make a comeback, and look: http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2012/01/20/the-return-of-wet-nursing/


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Thing is that if,me and ViolentPanda wanted for example we could accuse anyone who disagreed with us of antisemitism, thing is that way of arguing makes me feel really uncomfortable, like calling someone a paedophile because they didn't agree with you



that'd be call out culture top trumps shit though- I've got a bisexual brother, I'm poor and mentally not well. 1o pnts here

but whats this- a person of colour? alas I am undone.

Its no basis for a serious discussion is it.


----------



## co-op (May 15, 2014)

smokedout said:


> I was thinking about this the other day, couldn't it be said that anti-racism is in some way structural to neo-liberalism, as in the best wo/man for the job, in a free, flexible and competitive labour market.. but I find it hard to see how racism is likely to be a stuctural component of the way capitalism is developing  ...



Agree with this, I am old enough to have really seen this huge swing in racism from something that was quite general, normal and acceptable in the upper echelons of society to this new taboo that is really horrid and vulgar and probably working class (i.e. this is how it is believed to exist in UK society now by the elites). Of course the reality is that upper social classes are far more ethnically homogenous and socially awkward still about colour and ethnicity while in reality w/c communities have far more integration, but in terms of the expression of political views the upper classes seem to me now to be right on-message.

This swing in how it is viewed absolutely corresponds with the gradual post war collapse of imperial preference/trade preference blocs that sought to defend "their" economic turf from exploitation by foreigners to the new globalised market which requires huge degrees of labour mobility and in which wealthy elites have effectively pooled their turfs and agreed to share the moolah.

Racism is very useful for the first form, the imperial form, not least because it binds groups together in an identity they could be made to fight for in the huge wars that resulted from it, but its an obstacle and a problem for the latter type, the globalised market, and reduces profit-making opportunities rather than enhances them.

I used to wonder at how easily 'anti-racism' won the field (at times it looked like a battle that would be lost to me) but it sort of dawned that it was pretty much intrinsic to the new economy, and - voila! - it just happened.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Thing is that if,me and ViolentPanda wanted for example we could accuse anyone who disagreed with us of antisemitism, thing is that way of arguing makes me feel really uncomfortable, like calling someone a paedophile because they didn't agree with you



Also, frankly it's not a mode of argument, it's a way of closing argument down, especially when you don't have an intellectual foot to stand on.
Which is probably why the intersectionalists do it so often.


----------



## phildwyer (May 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> _Must. . . resist. . .urge to post. . . Irish ape cartoon. . ._


----------



## fogbat (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> If i remember right, when she was told i was irish during her brief sojourn on here she gave some mad essentialist bollocks about gerry adams. Suggests to me that it's not really followed through in any coherent fashion - it is a _fashion _though.



I believe there was a similar Irish thing during her Kill All Men adventures at the book fair.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 15, 2014)

phildwyer said:


>


----------



## rekil (May 15, 2014)

That's my sister-in-law's cousin.

_Bonus oppression points_


----------



## Buckaroo (May 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> That's my sister-in-law's cousin.



That's my ex's class mate. Drummers?


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 15, 2014)

Owen Jones' facebook thread, today:

"So some keep attacking me for being insufficiently loyal to the Labour leadership. Just so everyone's clear: I'm not a Labour party press officer! I spend an inordinate amount of time attacking the Tories and exposing their policies and the consequences on people's lives across the country. I try and take on the myths and lies that underpin their agenda, and often find myself taking on Tory policies and lies when - to be honest - the Labour front bench are Missing In Action. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be critical of the Labour leadership when they fail to stand up for people, or for not offering an agenda that inspires and encourages people. That might upset some people, but in any case, I think that's entirely counterproductive - _*if more people had spoken out when New Labour invaded Iraq, or abolished the 10p tax rate, or failed to regulate the banks, or didn't deal with the housing crisis - the Labour party might not be in such a mess*!_ So just so everyone is clear - that's what I'm going to keep on doing. Over and out!"

well done Owen, keeping the labour party honest where the plebs failed becuase they just didn't want it enough.


----------



## phildwyer (May 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> _*if more people had spoken out when New Labour invaded Iraq, or abolished the 10p tax rate, or failed to regulate the banks, or didn't deal with the housing crisis - the Labour party might not be in such a mess*!_



If more people had_ stopped voting_ for the buggers the _country _might not be in such a mess.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

How many people out on f15 would have been enough to make them not political failures and responsible for his parties wars and general policy do we think? 9 billion?


----------



## rekil (May 15, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> That's my ex's class mate. Drummers?


Can't remember tbh. Not a side of the family I know much about really. Still something I can wheel out to win rows though I suppose. (and that's the main thing)


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

Does anyone have an answer to my question about owen and Presstv btw?


----------



## rekil (May 15, 2014)

Blame the rats for deserting the ship


----------



## smokedout (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Does anyone have an answer to my question about owen and Presstv btw?



I suspect they might have just nicked which means Owen could probably get it taken down, someone he hasn't blocked should ask him on twittet


----------



## rekil (May 15, 2014)

smokedout said:


> I suspect they might have just nicked which means Owen could probably get it taken down, someone he hasn't blocked should ask him on twittet


The miraculously not blocked yet PD on the case.

UPDATE: OJ denies all knowledge. So either presstv nicked it or the guardian flogged it to them.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 15, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If more people had_ stopped voting_ for the buggers the _country _might not be in such a mess.



Yer right there and no mistake.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> UPDATE: OJ denies all knowledge.



If the tweet doesn't fit, you must acquit


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> If the tweet doesn't fit, you must acquit


I tried for ages and couldn't come with anything beyond _facts_. Which is shit.

But legally sound.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I tried for ages and couldn't come with anything beyond _facts_.


Facts: the poor man's opinions


----------



## rekil (May 15, 2014)

Crabapple, Stoya, and last and least, conspiraloon Tim Pool team up for google glass marketing exercise. 


> The project, called "Glass Gaze: An online performance with hacked Glass and Stoya," is multifaceted. It looks at the relationship between the artist's eye and the model, and how what the artist sees is not necessarily what winds up on the page. And aside from test runs, this will be the first time that Crabapple will be using Google Glass.
> 
> Born Jennifer Caban, the New York native Crabapple has a long history documenting the political and social turmoil of the 21st century with breezy, Victorian-style linework.



http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/artist-gazes-at-porn-performer-through-google-glass-q-a/

When these idiots say 'hacked' they really mean 'configured' don't they but hacking is way more mysterious and matrixy sounding.


----------



## cesare (May 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> _Must. . . resist. . .urge to post. . . Irish ape cartoon. . ._


That's the point, eh


----------



## Theisticle (May 16, 2014)

Bullshit


----------



## Favelado (May 16, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Bullshit




MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME.

She's awful.


----------



## J Ed (May 16, 2014)




----------



## J Ed (May 16, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Bullshit




Well, she went to Brussels to learn about the 'rise of fascism in Europe'.

Maybe guessing  Laurie's 'racial phenotypes' will make it into her article.. lol


----------



## rekil (May 16, 2014)

Followed by pic of LP in a pub with a bloke in a cape and mask calling himself 'Captain Europe'. Top research. Top revolutionary socialism.


----------



## weepiper (May 16, 2014)

Oh Jesus Christ just _shut up_ Laurie


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


>


Think i'd rather got to the thing Rutita1 was promoting yesterday - that above looks like london lefty liberal luvvys living room. What does "comment from Owen Jones" mean - he'll be watching it and tweeting and they'll have a big screen of his timeline?


----------



## J Ed (May 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> Followed by pic of LP in a pub with a bloke in a cape and mask calling himself 'Captain Europe'. Top research. Top revolutionary socialism.



EU Federalist chauvinism is a little bit pro-forrin communism

My god though what a joke the EU is, an EU presidential debate? Does anyone actually know that it's happening? What's the point? Who voted in that ex-'Maoist'-veryquickly-turned-neoliberal Barroso? 

Well they can have an EU Presidential debate and then people like Laurie Penny can report home on the fantastic state of EU democracy in Brussels and bemoan the fact that anyone doubting it is an ignorant racist.


----------



## J Ed (May 16, 2014)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ttack-to-bring-rebellious-italy-to-its-knees/



> The revelations about EMU skulduggery are coming thick and fast. Tim Geithner recounts in his book _Stress Test: Reflections on Financial Crises_ just how far the EU elites are willing to go to save the euro, even if it means toppling elected leaders and eviscerating Europe’s sovereign parliaments.
> 
> The former US Treasury Secretary says that EU officials approached him in the white heat of the EMU crisis in November 2011 with a plan to overthrow Silvio Berlusconi, Italy’s elected leader.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2014)

caleb said:


> Yep. Or the arguments around sex work as a form of individual freedom / bodily autonomy. Yeah, don't do the radfem thing and hate on sex workers but it's easy enough to do that without bending the stick that far the other way.


On this, Nancy Fraser has a brillaint book on how 2nd wave feminism helped provide both ideological and  structural support for the move from state-centred capitalism to neo-liberalism in the mid 70s:

Fortunes of Feminism: From Women's Liberation to Identity Politics to Anti-Capitalism 

Chapter 9 is the key one.

There's an interesting interview with her on Against the Grain as well:

Feminism and Neoliberalism


----------



## cesare (May 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> On this, Nancy Fraser has a brillaint book on how 2nd wave feminism helped provide both ideological and  structural support for the move from state-centred capitalism to neo-liberalism in the mid 70s:
> 
> Fortunes of Feminism: From Women's Liberation to Identity Politics to Anti-Capitalism
> 
> ...


I was reading a cif piece that she did last autumn, I'll see if I can find it ...


----------



## cesare (May 16, 2014)

Ah, not cif, it's an actual article: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/feminism-capitalist-handmaiden-neoliberal

It's part of a theme she's developed in a longer article but it's behind an education or some other paywall so I can't access it. Interesting theme of commodified feminism ... I'll see if I can find the other articles around it by other authors ...


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2014)

That looks pretty much like a summary of that chapter 9 from the book. All good stuff.


----------



## Theisticle (May 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



Fuck that. Will probably be another big 'vote Labour' event.


----------



## cesare (May 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That looks pretty much like a summary of that chapter 9 from the book. All good stuff.


It looks as though it's also worth reading Kathi Weeks: The Problem With Work, published in 2011 I think


----------



## rekil (May 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> EU Federalist chauvinism is a little bit pro-forrin communism


While people were getting watercannoned and arrested for protesting, LP was on the piss with journos and this cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2014)

cesare said:


> It looks as though it's also worth reading Kathi Weeks: The Problem With Work, published in 2011 I think


the problem with work IS work

http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> While people were getting watercannoned and arrested for protesting, LP was on the piss with journos and this cunt.
> 
> View attachment 53946


there is more than one cunt in that picture.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ttack-to-bring-rebellious-italy-to-its-knees/



So it was alright for the US to stand behind numerous destabilisation programmes that brought down Italian govts from post-WW2 right into (arguably) the '90s, but when the EU want to do it....


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ttack-to-bring-rebellious-italy-to-its-knees/






> Geithner told them this was unthinkable. The US could not misuse the machinery of the IMF to settle political disputes in this way. "We can't have his blood on our hands".



the ironing of that comment..

then again, the E.U's behaviour in Ukraine has been appalling and has seriously dented any positive notions I had towards it.

it all deserves its own thread


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> While people were getting watercannoned and arrested for protesting, LP was on the piss with journos and this cunt.
> 
> View attachment 53946





> _Sorry_, _guys_, but I'm not going back out there today. Really don't want to be arrested and deported just for having a holiday on expenses.


----------



## smokedout (May 16, 2014)

cesare said:


> It's part of a theme she's developed in a longer article but it's behind an education or some other paywall so I can't access it. Interesting theme of commodified feminism ... I'll see if I can find the other articles around it by other authors ...



I can, think you just have to be logged in


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> While people were getting watercannoned and arrested for protesting, LP was on the piss with journos and this cunt.
> 
> View attachment 53946



Didn't see any of that on the BBC, etc, that's a lot of arrests


----------



## Theisticle (May 16, 2014)

To be fair, she did eventually get round to tweeting about it (30 minutes ago)


----------



## Bakunin (May 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So it was alright for the US to stand behind numerous destabilisation programmes that brought down Italian govts from post-WW2 right into (arguably) the '90s, but when the EU want to do it....



Does that mean the Phoenix Program was a work of genius as well?


----------



## Theisticle (May 16, 2014)

Molly Crabapple



> When you buy Google Glass, you are not a consumer. You are an Explorer.
> 
> Everything about Glass affirms your specialness. The Swedish modern showroom, where a hot guy tweaks Glass’s nose grips just for your face. The card that comes with Glass, calling you an "adventurer," a "founder." The fact that you must be invited to purchase your pair, since there are only 8,000 Google Glasses in the world.
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/mollycrabappleart/posts/10153730051550691


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Does that mean the Phoenix Program was a work of genius as well?



In terms of _realpolitik_, I suppose that *could* be said, if you were amoral.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Molly Crabapple
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/mollycrabappleart/posts/10153730051550691




how are they managing to make what is a pretty fun looking sci fi toy into some wank like that? ^^^


----------



## J Ed (May 18, 2014)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/u...-students-squirm.html?hpw&rref=education&_r=1



> SANTA BARBARA, Calif. — Should students about to read “The Great Gatsby” be forewarned about “a variety of scenes that reference gory, abusive and misogynistic violence,” as one Rutgers student proposed? Would any book that addresses racism — like “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” or “Things Fall Apart” — have to be preceded by a note of caution? Do sexual images from Greek mythology need to come with a viewer-beware label?
> Colleges across the country this spring have been wrestling with student requests for what are known as “trigger warnings,” explicit alerts that the material they are about to read or see in a classroom might upset them or, as some students assert, cause symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder in victims of rape or in war veterans.
> 
> ...
> ...



Note how many of the unis with these _intersectionalista _students are private unis...


----------



## steeplejack (May 18, 2014)

mentally ill. 

"I might be exposed to bad shit!"

the logical conclusion is to lock yourself indoors and never watch anything, surf anywhere, speak to anyone or read a book or newspaper.

_Bad shit might happen._


----------



## butchersapron (May 18, 2014)

steeplejack said:


> mentally ill.
> 
> "I might be exposed to bad shit!"
> 
> ...


I wish they actually did follow through on that logic.


----------



## flypanam (May 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I wish they actually did follow through on that logic.



Tipper Gore must be some sort of hero to these types. PMRC as Trigger Warning nirvana


----------



## rekil (May 19, 2014)

A desperate attempt, even by Irish commentariat standards, to lump Sinn Fein in with the far right.



> Sinn Fein, some of whose members have engaged in actual paramilitary action against unsavoury foreign elements such as Brits and Protestants, would have to be given a more extreme rating than that, somewhere beyond the far right and into a realm where it may indeed be meeting itself at the other end of the spectrum – which may explain the fumbling efforts of experts who see it as a sort of left-wing, or socialist party, but which probably brings us to a somewhat more evocative denomination which would cover the nationalism and this strange "socialism". It would bring us to Sinn Fein as National Socialists.


SF are at about 20% in the polls, on target to wipe out Labour in the euros and are undented by being called terrorists etc for years, so why an experienced opinion monger like Lynch would think this approach might fare a bit better is a mystery. On the other hand, to get paid for this lazy piece of piss, that's livin' the dream.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 19, 2014)

copliker said:


> A desperate attempt, even by Irish commentariat standards, to lump Sinn Fein in with the far right.
> 
> 
> SF are at about 20% in the polls, on target to wipe out Labour in the euros and are undented by being called terrorists etc for years, so why an experienced opinion monger like Lynch would think this approach might fare a bit better is a mystery. On the other hand, to get paid for this lazy piece of piss, that's livin' the dream.



Another side of effect of neutrality is that the Irish commentariat look at 1939 - 45 and think 'oh noez, we missed the big party the cool kids went to '.


----------



## flypanam (May 19, 2014)

Does Denis O'Brien sanction articles at the indo like O'Reilly used to?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 19, 2014)

copliker said:


> A desperate attempt, even by Irish commentariat standards, to lump Sinn Fein in with the far right.
> 
> 
> SF are at about 20% in the polls, on target to wipe out Labour in the euros and are undented by being called terrorists etc for years, so why an experienced opinion monger like Lynch would think this approach might fare a bit better is a mystery. On the other hand, to get paid for this lazy piece of piss, that's livin' the dream.



Ah now, we can't start including the Sunday Independent here or the sheer weight of malicious stupidity will bury the thread.

The far right claim is idiocy, but one with a bit of a pedigree - the Officials used to cheerfully describe the Provos as fascists for years. They weren't then and they aren't now. That said Lynch does make the perfectly correct point that neither Labour nor Sinn Fein are left wing, despite the general consensus in the mainstream media that they are.


----------



## phildwyer (May 19, 2014)

steeplejack said:


> mentally ill.
> 
> "I might be exposed to bad shit!"
> 
> ...



It's projected guilt if you ask me.  Supposedly the trigger warnings are to protect war veterans, of whom there are now very many in American classrooms.  So it's alright to send them off to slaughter darkies, but bad to remind them about it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 21, 2014)

Right, so who fancies making nearly a grand a week?



> The EiC is expected to:
> 
> 
> Represent openDemocracy in the eyes of an international public of readers, supporters and funders
> ...


http://www.opendemocracy.net/opendemocracy/editorinchief-opendemocracy


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2014)

> Retweeted by Laurie Penny
> 
> 
> *R-Mattz* ‏@RealMattLucas  May 20
> #WhyImVotingUkip Because I like to think that people from other countries who live in mine are the main reason I have failed in life.




Go fuck yourself Laurie you private school everything handed to you on a plate wanker. Ironic that someone who bangs on about privilege for their FUCKING JOB is so totally blind to their own.


----------



## mk12 (May 22, 2014)

Ugh. Everything wrong with the middle class left summed up in one tweet.


----------



## The Pale King (May 22, 2014)

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/05/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-trigger-warnings

This caught my eye in Laurie's article on trigger warnings:

"The book I’ve just written touches on all sorts of potentially traumatic issues, the reason being that if you want to do transformative feminist politics properly you have to be willing to engage with rage and pain. _Unspeakable Things_ is not being published plastered in trigger warnings, and I wouldn't want it to be, but when I sent out draft chapters to friends for comment, I told them straight-up: this might be triggery. Perhaps if you're having a bad head day for body issues you might not want to read the eating disorders chapter. If I were ever so lucky as to see it discussed in a university class, I'd have no objection to teachers letting their students know that there are some difficult passages."

I would be worried about forcing people who have had traumatic experiences to reveal themselves and the type of trauma they have experienced in a university class. It might be that some people would rather others did not know about their traumatic experiences and not be forced to share them or analyse them in terms of whatever it is the class is reading. There are privacy issues here and whether people who have undergone traumas want to be known as and present themselves as survivors of abuse or abuse victims to their teachers and peers.

Anyway, gist of the article is that censorship happens in Texas, and that if you have any doubts about trigger warnings, you are "dismissing women, people of colour, queer people and trauma survivors as readers" and  "saying that our experiences do not matter - that we should calm down and "grow a thicker skin"."


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 22, 2014)

i think trigger warnings aren't the worst of ideas in the world but that makes me want them banned!


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2014)

'triggery'


----------



## emanymton (May 22, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> If I were ever so lucky as to see it discussed in a university class


There is not enough laughter in the world.


----------



## emanymton (May 22, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i think trigger warnings aren't the worst of ideas in the world but that makes me want them banned!


It really should just be covered by basic don't be a prick protocol. 
If you are about to read something out that might be upsetting to some just say so, if you don't you're a bit of a pick.


----------



## rekil (May 22, 2014)

Laurie and her mates aspire to be the new PMRC as someone said earlier, could be an article in that, easy money. But only if you top Laurie's "wrote this on my phone, in two hours, on a train" for any old shit will do sloppiness.

She has evidently forgotten about the peculiar kind of "empathy" she offered to a victim during her drive-by here.


----------



## The Pale King (May 22, 2014)

emanymton said:


> There is not enough laughter in the world.





And she threw it out there ever so 'umbly as well. Harvard take note!


----------



## flypanam (May 22, 2014)

Not going to read it, but when did teachers become psychotherapists? I'm pretty sure from university, FE, and secondary they are pretty much under pressure with non academic requirements, let alone finding texts that are benign enough for everyone to be comfortable.

Can a biology text be pmrc'd?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2014)

killer b said:


> 'triggery'



Prone to calling people "Dave" and wearinga lurid blue suit when partying?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2014)

double post


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2014)

flypanam said:


> Not going to read it, but when did teachers become psychotherapists? I'm pretty sure from university, FE, and secondary they are pretty much under pressure with non academic requirements, let alone finding texts that are benign enough for everyone to be comfortable.
> 
> Can a biology text be pmrc'd?



Not to put too fine a point on it (in other words, I'm going to be blunt!), what sort of eggshell-personality, fearful and temulous whining milksop wimps are not going to have experienced enough trauma in their lives that they evince trauma from reading a fucking text?  Wankers who've been insulated by mummy and daddy's money, that's who!
I've had to read G-dawful stuff that's made me sick to my stomach and made me cry, but I needed to read it to understand a subject (forensic psychology), and to allow me to better-understand the _subjects_ of the subject.  If those texts hadn't explained particular horrors, I would have had a much harder time grasping the psychological effects that those horrors can and do cause.  I despair for a future where we have too few psychologists, because prissy pissy wankers were scared of being traumatised by the subject!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 22, 2014)

Out of mild curiosity has anyone ever read anything about trigger warning written by someone with any expertise in PTSD?


----------



## The Pale King (May 22, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Out of mild curiosity has anyone ever read anything about trigger warning written by someone with any expertise in PTSD?


 

Behold:

*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  3 hrs
When I see 'trigger warning for eating disorders' on a blog, I still read it, I just make sure to have lunch beforehand. It's that simple.


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 22, 2014)

no-one gives trigger warnings for the things that have fucked me up


----------



## Idris2002 (May 22, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Behold:
> 
> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  3 hrs
> When I see 'trigger warning for eating disorders' on a blog, I still read it, I just make sure to have lunch beforehand. It's that simple.



Jesus fuck that's appalling.


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it (in other words, I'm going to be blunt!), what sort of eggshell-personality, fearful and temulous whining milksop wimps are not going to have experienced enough trauma in their lives that they evince trauma from reading a fucking text?  Wankers who've been insulated by mummy and daddy's money, that's who!
> I've had to read G-dawful stuff that's made me sick to my stomach and made me cry, but I needed to read it to understand a subject (forensic psychology), and to allow me to better-understand the _subjects_ of the subject.  If those texts hadn't explained particular horrors, I would have had a much harder time grasping the psychological effects that those horrors can and do cause.  I despair for a future where we have too few psychologists, because prissy pissy wankers were scared of being traumatised by the subject!


 
That’s a bit harsh VP – people who suffer the effects of PTSD are not whining milksop wimps, they suffer from a debilitating and distressing condition.

However, I’m not sure if trigger warnings are the best response to what is, after all, a relatively rare condition – while on the face of it they sound like a reasonable idea, I think they lead to the kind of nonsense we’ve seen above.

Surely it’s the responsibility of the sufferer to take whatever action is necessary to avoid being ‘triggered’? As my cousin who suffers from a peanut allergy does to avoid coming into contact with peanuts?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 22, 2014)

thats got to be hard work given the themes covered by most mainstream drama, books and in media. Even something like Emmerdale covers some triggerish themes


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2014)

Yep, and I think the warnings they have atm for the more serious stuff - rape & domestic violence for example - are a good idea. But if you're getting panic attacks from reading about eating disorders then you need to take ownership of that yourself, I think.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2014)

killer b said:


> That’s a bit harsh VP – people who suffer the effects of PTSD are not whining milksop wimps, they suffer from a debilitating and distressing condition.



I'm not talking about PTSD sufferers (something I know a bit about from personal experience), I'm talking about the sort of molly-coddled muppet who will supposedly get a fit of the vapours from reading an academic text.  The vast majority of people demanding "trigger warnings" aren't victims of actual trauma, they're people who're either looking for something to be offended by, or who aren't currently equipped for "real life".
I magine if Urban had to include trigger warnings! Your "I fell over pissed in the park in the middle of the night" thread would have needed dozens! 


> However, I’m not sure if trigger warnings are the best response to what is, after all, a relatively rare condition – while on the face of it they sound like a reasonable idea, I think they lead to the kind of nonsense we’ve seen above.


If this call for trigger warnings was only about the dangers to those who'd experienced trauma, I'd be supportive of *something*, but this stir-up in academe *mostly* isn't about protecting trauma survivors, it's about self-righteous identity politics imposing itself between the student and the subject of study.



> Surely it’s the responsibility of the sufferer to take whatever action is necessary to avoid being ‘triggered’? As my cousin who suffers from a peanut allergy does to avoid coming into contact with peanuts?



Precisely, hence my derisive characterisation of those who aren't trauma-survivors getting all aereated about texts not having trigger warnings.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Out of mild curiosity has anyone ever read anything about trigger warning written by someone with any expertise in PTSD?



I'm not widely-read on the subject of PTSD, but I've read a fair bit around the general psychological effects of trauma, *including* PTSD, and while it's made clear that certain foci and loci may trigger recall episodes (and therefore the psychological consequences, too), it's nowhere near generalised into anything prescriptive such as "war films should have trigger warnings, as they may cause problems for former combat soldiers".  It's much more about the individual survivor being aware of their issues, their trauma narrative and desensitising their triggers, rather than avoidance.  How does someone get past trauma if they avoid anything that might trigger recall?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Behold:
> 
> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed*  3 hrs
> When I see 'trigger warning for eating disorders' on a blog, I still read it, I just make sure to have lunch beforehand. It's that simple.



Just when you think that a particularly-dumb fuck can't get any dumber, Laurie shits out a homily so dumb it's called Cleatus.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 22, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not widely-read on the subject of PTSD, but I've read a fair bit around the general psychological effects of trauma, *including* PTSD, and while it's made clear that certain foci and loci may trigger recall episodes (and therefore the psychological consequences, too), it's nowhere near generalised into anything prescriptive such as "war films should have trigger warnings, as they may cause problems for former combat soldiers".  It's much more about the individual survivor being aware of their issues, their trauma narrative and desensitising their triggers, rather than avoidance.  How does someone get past trauma if they avoid anything that might trigger recall?


 
Thanks, that's the kind of thing I was getting at. I don't want to dismiss anyone who genuinely suffers from PTSD but it certainly seems as if some of the appeals to it here are coming from people who don't really seem to have a lot of knowledge of it.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 22, 2014)

It's one of those things where the language used (crudely imported from across the pond, like most of the twitteratai shite) makes me wince a bit, but isn't something I can find a logical objection to.  I'm worried I'm getting old and reactionary.


----------



## frogwoman (May 22, 2014)

I've got an anxiety disorder myself and avoidance is just about the worst possible thing for it


----------



## Idris2002 (May 22, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> It's one of those things where the language used (crudely imported from across the pond, like most of the twitteratai shite) makes me wince a bit, but isn't something I can find a logical objection to.  I'm worried I'm getting old and reactionary.



In my quest for gifs with which to delight my fans and annoy butchersapron, I often look at a site whose owner seems to be quite the fan of Hilary C and the US Democratic party. The odd thing is that said site is based in New Zealand. . .


----------



## frogwoman (May 22, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> In my quest for gifs with which to delight my fans and annoy butchersapron, I often look at a site whose owner seems to be quite the fan of Hilary C and the US Democratic party. The odd thing is that said site is based in New Zealand. . .



Maybe its peter dows long lost twin


----------



## equationgirl (May 22, 2014)

killer b said:


> Yep, and I think the warnings they have atm for the more serious stuff - rape & domestic violence for example - are a good idea. But if you're getting panic attacks from reading about eating disorders then you need to take ownership of that yourself, I think.


I don't like the effect reading about anorexia has on me and my subsequent eating patterns. This stems from being forced into reading detailed articles on anorexia at a very young age by a misguided parent. 

So I don't read articles about anorexia. No need for trigger warnings, I'm an adult, I know the effect on me certain things have and I avoid them.


----------



## rekil (May 22, 2014)

TRIGGER WARNING: poshos exploiting emotive issues for political and careerist leverage.

Huffpost trigger warning discussion featuring LP and some bloke from Rutgers.


----------



## Theisticle (May 22, 2014)

Anyone seen this?



> The open letter published yesterday calling for Ben Sullivan to resign was, in my honest view and in the view of our experienced lawyer, unwise and unfair. Its contents could possibly interfere with the proper administration of justice. That is contempt of court, which carries a penalty of six months in prison and could cause any criminal proceedings to collapse.
> 
> Since The Tab and our lawyer made that point to some of the signatories of the letter, many of them have tried to retract their signature. The New Statesman and the Cherwell pulled the letter from their websites after we got in touch.
> 
> Chunks of that letter, which can’t be reproduced here, may affect a jury member’s opinion of Ben Sullivan if they had read it. And it was signed by respected people who call themselves journalists, such as Laurie Penny and Caroline Criado-Perez. It was also briefly published by the New Statesman. Their names carry weight, and have an enormous impact on people’s opinions. I think they have behaved irresponsibly.


http://oxford.tab.co.uk/2014/05/21/...o-say-this-witch-hunt-is-getting-out-of-hand/


----------



## equationgirl (May 22, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Anyone seen this?
> 
> 
> http://oxford.tab.co.uk/2014/05/21/...o-say-this-witch-hunt-is-getting-out-of-hand/


I thought the article was good - fair and balanced. Schoolgirl mistake for a journalist such as LP to not think about contempt of court, especially about one of their own.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2014)

That oxford letter later that was taken down/back. And it, of course, contains a lengthy trigger warning.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2014)

Fairly decent discussion of 'trigger warnings' here:

http://jezebel.com/we-dont-have-to-use-trigger-warnings-but-we-can-learn-1578653191/all


----------



## Theisticle (May 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That oxford letter later down/back. And it, of course, contains a lengthy trigger warning.



Ah, Owen Jones signed also.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2014)

There was a good point made the other day saying that some places are coming under pressure not to teach stuff that may be triggering, ie feminist theories, things about racism/colonialism etc thereby having exactly the opposite point to what was supposedly intended


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That oxford letter later down/back. And it, of course, contains a lengthy trigger warning.



Check out some of the names there:

Ailsa Burkimsher Sadler
Catrin Gruffydd Jones
Mary-Dan Johnston
Henriette Willberg
Barnaby Raine
Benjamin Coney Critchley
Jessy Parker Humphries

No Tarquins though


----------



## emanymton (May 24, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Check out some of the names there:
> 
> Ailsa Burkimsher Sadler
> Catrin Gruffydd Jones
> ...


I am surprised you missed that one of the others is deputy leader of the green group on Oxford council.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2014)

Is there some kind of stratification going on with the list of signatories? They are all identified by their college, except the first six, two of whom (Pine & Delaney) who are identified by their (elected) Student Union function. The other four (Dollimore, Criado-Perez, Penny & Jones) are seemingly expected to be identified by name alone, perhaps?

For completeness' sake:

Helena Dollimore (St. Hilda's College)
Sarah Pine (Wadham College alumna)
Lucy Delaney (Wadham College)
Caroline Criado-Perez (Keeble College alumna)
Laurie Penny (Wadham College alumna)
Owen Jones (University College alumnus)

Also, the preamble notes that the letter was initially signed by “spokespeople concerned with equality and women’s issues” before being opened up “to all members of the Oxford community...Alumni or public figures”. But only two are identified as having any kind of mandate to ‘speak’ for others (ie Pine & Delaney, as elected office holders within the Student Union); are Criado-Perez, Penny and Jones now to be considered ‘spokespeople’ simply by virtue of speaking (or writing) and being paid for it?


----------



## killer b (May 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> are Criado-Perez, Penny and Jones now to be considered ‘spokespeople’ simply by virtue of speaking (or writing) and being paid for it?


yes. shit isn't it?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2014)

killer b said:


> yes. shit isn't it?


I just find it a little odd that there is an implied expectation of name recognition for some, but not for others. Typically with an open letter like this, one might expect signatories to be listed by name and function or organisation so the reader has a sense of the breadth (or narrowness) of support.

And why does Dollimore - a Labour hack but not a Student Union official - get to be elevated to ‘name only’ status level?


----------



## killer b (May 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I just find it a little odd that there is an implied expectation of name recognition for some, but not for others. Typically with an open letter like this, one might expect signatories to be listed by name and function or organisation so the reader has a sense of the breadth (or narrowness) of support.


I think it's to give the reader a sense of the breadth (or narrowness) of it's intended readership...


----------



## fractionMan (May 24, 2014)

Once I went on twitter and it was entirely populated by twats.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2014)




----------



## Idris2002 (May 24, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> Once I went on twitter and it was entirely populated by twats.



The clue is in the name. HTH.


----------



## rekil (May 25, 2014)

Laurie's chum here, ooooh shocking


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2014)

Great choice of site to be shocking on too - one set up by a racist homophobic far-righter.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Great choice of site to be shocking on too - one set up by a racist homophobic far-righter.


As endorsed by FBI ex-anarchist stoolpigeon-turned-Tea Party poster boy Brandon Darby!


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Great choice of site to be shocking on too - one set up by a racist homophobic far-righter.



Notice that James Delingpole and the Henry Jackson Society's (too extreme even for James Bloodworth) Raheem Kassam write for the UK edition


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Notice that James Delingpole and the Henry Jackson Society's (too extreme even for James Bloodworth) Raheem Kassam write for the UK edition


The latter actually runs it.


----------



## Theisticle (May 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie's chum here, ooooh shocking




What an asshole. IIRC Milo once said on edition of BBC Free Speech that he had no issue with racial profiling.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 25, 2014)

Eoin Clarke makes you ‘an offer you can't refuse’:


----------



## steeplejack (May 25, 2014)

are we meant to be honoured if whoever "Eoin Clarke" is re-tweets us, or something?

who the fuck is he, anyway? the arrogance of these people always both baffles and surprises me.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 25, 2014)

steeplejack said:


> are we meant to be honoured if whoever "Eoin Clarke" is re-tweets us, or something?
> 
> who the fuck is he, anyway? the arrogance of these people always both baffles and surprises me.


Hey, he's got 30,000 followers, so he must be important!



> Labour. Ethical Socialist. Founder of @*LabourLeft*. Editor of The Green Benches
> 
> greenbenchesuk.com


----------



## steeplejack (May 25, 2014)

In other words, a guy with an opinion and some shitty blog /magazine that hardly anybody reads.

unreal.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2014)

that quid could be better spent on 6 chomps


----------



## emanymton (May 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> that quid could be better spent on 6 chomps


It would be better spent dropping it down the drain to be frank.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Great choice of site to be shocking on too - one set up by a racist homophobic far-righter.



One who killed himself with fatty food and cocaine, John Belushi style, no less.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> that quid could be better spent on 6 chomps



You mean they still make chomps? This changes everything. . .


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2014)

steeplejack said:


> are we meant to be honoured if whoever "Eoin Clarke" is re-tweets us, or something?
> 
> who the fuck is he, anyway? the arrogance of these people always both baffles and surprises me.



He's a backbench Labour MP, IIRC. Very opinionated, and sometimes a bit conspiratastic.


----------



## Balbi (May 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's a backbench Labour MP, IIRC. Very opinionated, and sometimes a bit conspiratastic.



He isn't an MP


----------



## Left (May 26, 2014)

Would people be willing to admit that this is a decent article? New Statesman | Let's call the Isla Vista killings what they were: misogynist extremism

I can't find anything to take issue with there.


----------



## butchersapron (May 26, 2014)

Left said:


> Would people be willing to admit that this is a decent article? New Statesman | Let's call the Isla Vista killings what they were: misogynist extremism
> 
> I can't find anything to take issue with there.


What about this nonsense?



> For some time now, misogynist extremism has been excused, *as all acts of terrorism committed by white men are excused*, as an aberration, as the work of random loons, not real men at all. Why are we denying the existence of a pattern?



There's a whole industry attempting to place terrorism committed by white men in all sorts of contexts and political patterns beyond being the work of random loons. Do i need mention Brevik? Copeland? The Lone Wolf Industry? Timothy Mcveigh and the american far right?


----------



## Left (May 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What about this nonsense?
> 
> 
> 
> There's a whole industry attempting to place terrorism committed by white men in all sorts of contexts beyond being the work of random loons. Do i need mention Brevik? Copeland? The Lone Wolf Industry? Timothy Mcveigh and the american far right?



But surely you would agree that acts of terrorism by (non-Muslim) white men are treated differently in the media and by the public? Including reluctance to use the word "terrorism"? and that remarkably little attention is paid their whiteness and maleness and its relevance?


----------



## butchersapron (May 26, 2014)

Left said:


> But surely you would agree that acts of terrorism by (non-Muslim) white men are treated differently in the media and by the public? Including reluctance to use the word "terrorism"? and that remarkably little attention is paid their whiteness and maleness and its relevance?


I'm arguing that the bit that i highlighted - the definite universal statement, the founding rock of the whole article - is wrong. Embarrassingly wrong. And that pointing out a few examples of a real living tradition of understanding white terrorism in a way contrary to the articles opening claim, is enough to fatally undermine it, no matter how many other examples of treating white terrorism (also a thing which doesn't exist, but i'll leave that for now) being treated in the way that the article suggests is universal.


----------



## rekil (May 26, 2014)

Rodger's mam was asian, doesn't that make him a POC according to intersectionality rules? 

Pathetic understanding of political violence here, which amongst other things, ignores the participation of women, which is doubly peculiar because LP often fetishizes them. What's going on in Oxford?


> Violent extremism always attracts the lost, the broken, young men full of rage at the hand they’ve been dealt. Violent extremism entices those who long to lash out at a system they believe has cheated them, but lack they courage to think for themselves, beyond the easy answers they are offered by pedlars of hate.


This is why we can't have nice things. Like a revolution.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> Pathetic understanding of political violence here, which amongst other things, ignores the participation of women, which is doubly peculiar because LP often fetishizes them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm...





			
				Laurie Penny then said:
			
		

> Fewer business lunches, more throwing punches


----------



## DotCommunist (May 26, 2014)

thats so patronising. Broken my arse, plenty of people driven to acts of political violence because of their personal convictions are hale of mind and body and very angry. Lack the courage. Always that fucking binary.


----------



## Limerick Red (May 26, 2014)

Not that it really needs mentioning, but there is a important role being played on behalf of the state by articles like those   Linked to here, and that's the conflation of "extremism" and "bad", whereby the political origins/intent of the "extremists" get swept away in the handwringing.
Allowing "progressives" over and over to ally themselves with the state, as for example hope not hate do, in describing themselves against "all extremism"

Naxalites you lack the courage to think for yourselves!

ETA stop offering easy answers you pedlars of hate!


----------



## DotCommunist (May 26, 2014)

peddler anyway. Pedlar is the olden day word.


----------



## tim (May 26, 2014)

Left said:


> But surely you would agree that acts of terrorism by (non-Muslim) white men are treated differently in the media and by the public? Including reluctance to use the word "terrorism"? and that remarkably little attention is paid their whiteness and maleness and its relevance?



A reluctance not reflected in  the ongoing quest to  get Gerry Adams


----------



## DotCommunist (May 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You mean they still make chomps? This changes everything. . .




They do, but sit down for this.




They now charge 15p for a chomp. That also goes for a finger of Fudge and a Curly Wurly.

I know. I know it is hard news. But we will adapt and survive


----------



## Idris2002 (May 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> They do, but sit down for this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tim (May 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> peddler anyway. Pedlar is the olden day word.




The words of a self-appointed pedlar of lexicographical authority. Your intolerance of marginalised spellings disgusts me. A less intolerant society would gaol your sort


----------



## tim (May 26, 2014)

Left said:


> But surely you would agree that acts of terrorism by (non-Muslim) white men are treated differently in the media and by the public? Including reluctance to use the word "terrorism"? and that remarkably little attention is paid their whiteness and maleness and its relevance?




Its a lack of a coherent political or religious justifying ideology that leads to the term terrorist not to be used for spree killers such as Elliot Rodger.


----------



## seventh bullet (May 26, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Not that it really needs mentioning, but there is a important role being played on behalf of the state by articles like those   Linked to here, and that's the conflation of "extremism" and "bad", whereby the political origins/intent of the "extremists" get swept away in the handwringing.
> Allowing "progressives" over and over to ally themselves with the state, as for example hope not hate do, in describing themselves against "all extremism"
> 
> Naxalites you lack the courage to think for yourselves!
> ...



Naxalism (not the label loosely used by the Indian government) has been going nowhere for years.  It's an awful, largely un-Maoist struggle.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


>



_Ourselves_ alone?


----------



## rekil (May 27, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Naxalism (not the label loosely used by the Indian government) has been going nowhere for years.  It's an awful, largely un-Maoist struggle.


They need to get a move on and renew their new statesman subscription pronto.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Rodger's mam was asian, doesn't that make him a POC according to intersectionality rules?
> 
> Pathetic understanding of political violence here, which amongst other things, ignores the participation of women, which is doubly peculiar because LP often fetishizes them. What's going on in Oxford?
> 
> This is why we can't have nice things. Like a revolution.



Very poor understanding of the psychology behind some terrorists/freedom fighters too. Some choose, from a basis of rationality rather than extremism, to do what they do.
She completely removes any agency from them, in effect making them puppets rather than active, engaged participants whose basis for action lies in "getting the story out" and creating political and economic tensions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> thats so patronising. Broken my arse, plenty of people driven to acts of political violence because of their personal convictions are hale of mind and body and very angry. Lack the courage. Always that fucking binary.



Easy-reading reductivism - that's what she's about.  Echo-chambering the mainstream, and presenting it as radical thought.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _Ourselves_ alone?



Shut it, Chuckie!


----------



## Theisticle (May 27, 2014)




----------



## DotCommunist (May 27, 2014)

just checked mine, still not a scion of a fascist family leading a neo-fascist party.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2014)

So this is life now Justine - a series of wind up statements on twitter. A life well lived.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>




Fucking hell, is that real?


----------



## weepiper (May 27, 2014)

How about women hating on her? Is that ok? Because I'm happy to shoulder the burden of legitimately hating on Marine Le Pen on behalf of all you privileged male liberals.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 27, 2014)

soon we will be told that the nickname 'Bitch of Buchenwald' is an inappropriate way to refer to Illse Koch...

on a side note I do find them lurid depictions of nazi women a bit off, like they are sensationalised just cos 'look, this person was an evil cunt- BUT ALSO FEMALE'

so the fuck what, who really has in their heads the idea of all women as a homogenous nice care-giving mother figure?


----------



## rekil (May 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Very poor understanding of the psychology behind some terrorists/freedom fighters too. Some choose, from a basis of rationality rather than extremism, to do what they do.
> She completely removes any agency from them, in effect making them puppets rather than active, engaged participants whose basis for action lies in "getting the story out" and creating political and economic tensions.


Opinion mongers are victims as well here, they're under such terrible pressure to react to events and bang out any old content asap. 

Speaking of which, Marcos has checked his privilege and is OUT of the EZLN leadership. 800 words on what this means for the left and how it's hoped that his replacement will use an e-cig as a gimmick.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Opinion mongers are victims as well here, they're under such terrible pressure to react to events and bang out any old content asap.
> 
> Speaking of which, Marcos has checked his privilege and is OUT of the EZLN leadership. 800 words on what this means for the left and how it's hoped that his replacement will use an e-cig as a gimmick.



Can't help but feel partly responsible.


----------



## rekil (May 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Can't help but feel partly responsible.


Laurie thug-shamed him into jacking it in.


> Violent extremism entices those who long to lash out at a system they believe has cheated them, but lack they courage to think for themselves, beyond the easy answers they are offered by pedlars of hate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie thug-shamed him into jacking it in.





> Sorry, guys, but I'm not going back out there today. Really don't want to be arrested and deported just for leading an indigenous-proletarian-peasant rebellion against a multinational corporation-backed neoliberal state.


----------



## Theisticle (May 27, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Fucking hell, is that real?



She tweeted this prior:


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> She tweeted this prior:


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2014)

So it's a pisstake then.


----------



## rekil (May 27, 2014)

If this isn't a call out, I dunno what is 



> They say out there that we haven’t achieved anything for ourselves.
> 
> It never ceases to surprise us that they hold on to this position with such self-assurance.
> 
> They think that the sons and daughters of the comandantes and comandantas should be enjoying trips abroad, studying in private schools, and achieving high posts in business or political realms. That instead of working the land and producing their food with sweat and determination, they should shine in social networks, amuse themselves in clubs, show off in luxury.



(no _ambition_)


----------



## co-op (May 28, 2014)

> Violent extremism always attracts the lost, the broken, young men full of rage at the hand they’ve been dealt. Violent extremism entices those who long to lash out at a system they believe has cheated them, but *lack they courage* to think for themselves, beyond the easy answers they are offered by pedlars of hate.



These men "lack the courage"? They aren't "brave"? 
Why then they can't be REAL men!

Weird how this so openly reproduces the patriarchal assumptions that (I assume) it is trying to critique.

Mind you anyone who can write "pedlars of hate" is just another hack basically.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>




This has to be a piss-take, surely?


----------



## Sue (May 28, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This has to be a piss-take, surely?


Got to be,  no-one would say 'hating on' otherwise surely?


----------



## Idris2002 (May 28, 2014)

co-op said:


> "pedlars of hate"



Come buy my hate!

Fresh hate for sale!


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2014)

I've got a hate pedalo.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2014)

Vanzetti - only a poor pedlar of hate.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 28, 2014)

And she hated her hate barrow, through hates broad and narrow. . .


----------



## co-op (May 28, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This has to be a piss-take, surely?



I just had a look at her twitter feed and I don't _think_ so but I know nothing about twitter. She also tweeted 



> *Justine Tunney* ‏@*JustineTunney*
> .@*gabegaster* I’m pointing out that Marine Le Pen is proof that feminists consider women secondary to the left-wing party line.



whereas ??"real" feminists give completely uncritical support to everything ever done by every woman ever? Or that feminism is finished or what?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Vanzetti - only a poor pedlar of hate.


Better a poor pedlar than a backpeddler


----------



## rekil (May 28, 2014)

The door to door hate sales industry is due a comeback, riding a retro nostalgia wave. You cannot beat the personal touch.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> So this is life now Justine - a series of wind up statements on twitter. A life well lived.



It wouldn'tbe so bad if it wasn't so transparently "look at me, aren't I controversial!" behaviour, pretty much like Yiannopolos's Breitbart article about how Elliott Rodger wasn't a misogynist.
Sad middle-class dicks, the pair of them.


----------



## rekil (May 28, 2014)

co-op said:


> I just had a look at her twitter feed and I don't _think_ so but I know nothing about twitter.


Tunney is a loon.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> The door to door hate sales industry is due a comeback, riding a retro nostalgia wave. You cannot beat the personal touch.


“Special delivery for Mr Carr!”


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2014)

weepiper said:


> How about women hating on her? Is that ok? Because I'm happy to shoulder the burden of legitimately hating on Marine Le Pen on behalf of all you privileged male liberals.



Thanks weeps, you're a _mensch_ (and I mean that in a thoroughly non-sexist way)!!!
Frankly, though, I think I'll brave Ms Tunney's ire and resist checking my privilege with regard to believing that Marine Le Pen is a soulless hard-right piece of shit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> soon we will be told that the nickname 'Bitch of Buchenwald' is an inappropriate way to refer to Illse Koch...
> 
> on a side note I do find them lurid depictions of nazi women a bit off, like they are sensationalised just cos 'look, this person was an evil cunt- BUT ALSO FEMALE'
> 
> so the fuck what, who really has in their heads the idea of all women as a homogenous nice care-giving mother figure?



Bear in mind that in Nazi ideology, from the late '20s on, that's exactly how women in the _Reich_ were viewed, hence the BDM and other "woman as mother and care-giver" organisations and ordinances.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> Opinion mongers are victims as well here, they're under such terrible pressure to react to events and bang out any old content asap.




So when we get right down to it, it's *our* fault for putting the poor commentators in that situation in the first place!
What utter cunts we are!


----------



## Balbi (May 28, 2014)

[Media]471658391883247616[/media]


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2014)

Balbi said:


> [Media]471658391883247616[/media]



Best 471658391883247616 ever.


----------



## Balbi (May 28, 2014)

Fuck you


----------



## weepiper (May 28, 2014)

co-op said:


> I just had a look at her twitter feed and I don't _think_ so but I know nothing about twitter. She also tweeted
> 
> 
> 
> whereas ??"real" feminists give completely uncritical support to everything ever done by every woman ever? Or that feminism is finished or what?



_My _feminism will be socialist or it will be bullshit.


----------



## Theisticle (May 28, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Fuck you




But can she monetise that hotness?


----------



## Sue (May 28, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Fuck you




Oh FFS.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2014)

weepiper said:


> _My _feminism will be socialist or it will be bullshit.


if i can't dance on laurie penny's grave i don't want to be in your revolution.
--emma goldman at a seance recently


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 28, 2014)

oh ffs crabapple.


----------



## rekil (May 28, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So when we get right down to it, it's *our* fault for putting the poor commentators in that situation in the first place!
> What utter cunts we are!


Blessed are the privately schooled opinion mongers.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blessed are the privately schooled opinion mongers.



how come if she's been practicing for years she's still shit at it?


----------



## Brainaddict (May 28, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> oh ffs crabapple.


She's like a weathercock. You can tell the state of our (or US at least) culture just by watching her.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blessed are the privately schooled opinion mongers.



_Practi*s*ing_, if you don't mind.


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blessed are the privately schooled opinion mongers.




She missed out years of lying and relying on the unpaid labour of others.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blessed are the privately schooled opinion mongers.




It is said that "practice makes perfect".  Laurie's writings give this old saw the lie.


----------



## Bakunin (May 29, 2014)

Writing's a craft, is it? Strange, been doing it for years and it's hardly some mysterious, arcane occupation as far as I can see.


----------



## killer b (May 29, 2014)

of course it's a craft.


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2014)

Thousands of books my anus. Well, kiddy fiction maybe. (Nothing wroing with that, just not that relevant to her journalism boasts).


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 29, 2014)

http://www.tatler.com/bystander/events/2014/may/the-henry-jackson-society-ladies-lunch

Jesus H Christ.


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2014)

Penny pours forth on behalf of the part Murdoch-owned anti-Bolivarian Vice Magazine http://www.vice.com/read/what-is-this-europe-that-you-keep-talking-about


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2014)

God she is an incredibly annoying and vapid writer.


----------



## equationgirl (May 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Blessed are the privately schooled opinion mongers.



Oh ffs


----------



## The Pale King (May 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Penny pours forth on behalf of the part Murdoch-owned anti-Bolivarian Vice Magazine http://www.vice.com/read/what-is-this-europe-that-you-keep-talking-about



Most of that reads like a fucking Craig Brown parody


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 30, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Most of that reads like a fucking Craig Brown parody


Well, the _actual_ As Told To Craig Brown didn't get great reviews...







...but this _fake_ As Told To Craig Brown (as in, an actual LP column) certainly tickled a Norwegian expat:



> ...These days, I avoid left-wing newspapers and blogs like the plague, on the basis that, as I’m now 60, I’ve really heard enough bullshit to last whatever span is left to me. But an hour ago I fell for a tweet by Chris Deerin linking to what he claimed was a parody of a Laurie Penny column by Craig Brown. Only it turned out to be an actual column by the privately-educated journalistic successor to Polly Toynbee (and, of course, Deidre Spart), written in 2010, in the lead-up to the last World Cup. It is a classic – utterly beyond parody...
> 
> ...At one point there's a surreal reference to a lesbian South African player being raped (possibly by Mosley's blackshirts - or idiot children - who knows?). And she uses the word "bricolage", thus proving how useful an expensive private education can be....


----------



## cesare (May 30, 2014)




----------



## Theisticle (May 30, 2014)

My favourite Penny article is still about her wearing the hijab indoors (circa 2009). Her writing still hasn't improved in 2014.



> Islamic culture is not mine to appropriate. I still enjoy wearing hijab, but out of respect to the many full-time veil-wearers in my area of London I only wear it around the house. Maybe that's weird - but it's no weirder than the many women who are happiest prancing around their living rooms in frilly underwear or, in the case of one particular friend of mine, eight-inch spike heels and a steel-bone corset.
> 
> These and many other options are, of course, only liberating if one is truly free to dress as one pleases. I'd object to being forced to wear a hijab, burqa, frilly knickers or any other garment on the basis of my gender as strenuously as I objected to the mandatory short skirts that formed part of my school uniform. What the French government seems not to have grasped is that the freedom to wear whatever little dress we like is not every woman's idea of the zenith of personal emancipation.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/labourlist/france-tells-women-what-n_b_221803.html


----------



## frogwoman (May 30, 2014)

That's funny because most Muslim women actually DONT wear it indoors!


----------



## equationgirl (May 30, 2014)

She wrote about Elliott Rodgers - there's an awful lot of rhetoric and hyperbole though:
http://www.newstatesman.com/lifesty...-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism

Somehow the link to 1989 shooting in Quebec has linked to the guy's email address instead of a news article about it.


----------



## J Ed (May 31, 2014)

_Monetize _your twitter abuse (or in a few cases justified, if a little over the top, criticism)


----------



## frogwoman (May 31, 2014)

Wtf


----------



## DotCommunist (May 31, 2014)

the giant self portrait of ego


----------



## Theisticle (May 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> _Monetize _your twitter abuse (or in a few cases justified, if a little over the top, criticism)




Bloody hell, these people are awful.


----------



## weepiper (May 31, 2014)

'petty bourgoius'?


----------



## tim (May 31, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> how come if she's been practicing for years she's still shit at it?




PRACTISING, surely


----------



## Theisticle (May 31, 2014)

I obviously sympathise with them after some of the abhorrent abuse they genuinely suffer online but doing a portrait of it is simply so self-indulgent.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2014)

tim said:


> PRACTISING, surely


yr late with that


----------



## treelover (May 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the giant self portrait of ego



Tracey Emin's bed?


----------



## Bun (Jun 1, 2014)

Poor Molly Tall Poppy.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 1, 2014)

LP claims that all men benefit from sexism without (as far as I can tell) explaining how or much at all really http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 2, 2014)

J Ed said:


> LP claims that all men benefit from sexism without (as far as I can tell) explaining how or much at all really http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism



Now there's a surprise!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 2, 2014)

to be fair, without reading the article, that is basically true.


----------



## Left (Jun 2, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with that article, it's feminism 101. Of course all men benefit from sexism.


----------



## Left (Jun 2, 2014)

What's the point of this thread anyway? Satire? Exposing fake lefties? What purpose does all this obsessive nit-picking serve?


----------



## Left (Jun 2, 2014)

sdfdsdfs


----------



## Left (Jun 2, 2014)

triplepost


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2014)

oh, are we at that point in the cycle again?


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

I disagree as I do not think it is a fact that all men benefit from sexism.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 2, 2014)

Left said:


> There's nothing wrong with that article, it's feminism 101. Of course all men benefit from sexism.



Is it that obvious is it?

What about men deemed to not match up to certain criteria? You think men who identify closer with what is commonly considered feminine traits universally benefit? You don't think historically homophobia towards gay men was bound up in sexism?

Certainly many men enjoyed a certain wages of maleness and many have and continue to fight to maintain sexism as means of bolstering their status but to claim in such a dismissive manner that all men benefit from sexism is just stupid.


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2014)

stupid it may be, but it _is_ true. I don't have a huge problem with feminists being a bit dismissive on the topic, considering.


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2014)

(rubbish article though)


----------



## Left (Jun 2, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Is it that obvious is it?
> 
> What about men deemed to not match up to certain criteria? You think men who identify closer with what is commonly considered feminine traits universally benefit? You don't think historically homophobia towards gay men was bound up in sexism?
> 
> Certainly many men enjoyed a certain wages of maleness and many have and continue to fight to maintain sexism as means of bolstering their status but to claim in such a dismissive manner that all men benefit from sexism is just stupid.



all men have male privilege - I can't believe this is even controversial. Gay men are disadvantaged in lots of ways, including by misogyny, but they are not part of the sex class.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 2, 2014)

killer b said:


> stupid it may be, but it _is_ true. I don't have a huge problem with feminists being a bit dismissive on the topic, considering.



yeah but taken to logical extremes and you get TERF's arguing that trans people are just out to violate women's spaces.

Growing up homophobia was always tied into sexism, these weren't real men etc. I don't think many of my gay male friends benefited from sexism, on the contrary.


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2014)

of course they did. there's a thousand invisible ways that men - whatever their sexuality - benefit from being men. That they were also oppressed more visibly for their sexuality is a separate thing.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 2, 2014)

The problem I have with the argument that all men benefit from sexism isn't that it's not true - at a basic level it clearly is, in that all other things being equal men do better out of society as it is than women (badly phrased I know but you know what I mean). It's more that if you just leave it at that it kind of sounds like all men would be worse off if we were to do away with patriarchy/sexism (or whatever you want to call it). Which makes it sound like all men have a material interest in maintaining sexism. 

Fortunately I don't actually think that's true, because it's one of the props holding capitalism up and keeping it functioning (unpaid labour contributing to the social surplus bla bla bla). So on another level most men (in particular working class ones) lose out as a result of sexism, since without it the system that exploits us couldn't be maintained and conversely some women - female capitalists for example - derive material benefits from it while still being affected negatively as compared to men in a similar position.

I think if you actually want to do away with sexism, as opposed to impotent moralising, it's useful to make that qualification simply because people are less likely to support political goals that they believe will make them worse off and more likely to support ones that will make them better off.

(Warning: this post may contain stuff that reads like Marxism by numbers)


----------



## weepiper (Jun 2, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Growing up homophobia was always tied into sexism, these weren't real men etc. I don't think many of my gay male friends benefited from sexism, on the contrary.



They never benefited from higher wages and better working conditions because women were at home looking after children or elderly parents? It doesn't have to be_ their_ children. Women contribute a lot of unpaid work to the economy because it traditionally is left to us.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 2, 2014)

Left said:


> all men have male privilege - I can't believe this is even controversial. Gay men are disadvantaged in lots of ways, including by misogyny, but they are not part of the sex class.



I have the privilege of not worrying about my skin colour but do I actually gain from racism? Basically are these benefits based on a class oppression, that is do men and women, blacks and whites constitute class formations. Is it in my interest to maintain these class systems?

I don't think men and women constitute class formations, rather internal divisions and hierarchies within wider class structures.

Protestant workers could be said to benefit from sectarian hiring practices, but only if protestant workers interests are defined narrowly within the status quo and within a  zero sum logic. From the perspective of a protestant worker wishing to atleast challenge the class system, sectarianism was very much against their interest.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 2, 2014)

weepiper said:


> They never benefited from higher wages and better working conditions because women were at home looking after children or elderly parents? It doesn't have to be_ their_ children. Women contribute a lot of unpaid work to the economy because it traditionally is left to us.



Actually women at home looking after children or elderly parents unpaid allows capitalists to pay less than they should for the reproduction of labour power. Women do contribute most of the unpaid work to the economy but I guess the question depends on whether you think all men benefit from the reproduction of such an economy. 

The issue of whether women bare the brunt of sexism is a no brainer, the question of whether it is of benefit to men is a bit less obvious.

Like I said protestants on one hand gained from sectarian employment for decades in a very direct manner but in the larger picture can it be said that it was in their interests and really in their benefit? Again depends on whether you think it's a matter of sharing out the shitness of this world in a more fair manner or reject the shitness in general.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 2, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Actually women at home looking after children or elderly parents unpaid allows capitalists to pay less than they should for the reproduction of labour power. Women do contribute most of the unpaid work to the economy but I guess the question depends on whether you think all men benefit from the reproduction of such an economy.
> 
> The issue of whether women bare the brunt of sexism is a no brainer, the question of whether it is of benefit to men is a bit less obvious.



If women weren't doing it, someone else would have to. You (men) benefit from it by not having to do it. Or having to pay higher taxes so that someone could be paid to do it.


----------



## chilango (Jun 2, 2014)

Yet I benefitted from getting to do it. A male privilege double whammy!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 2, 2014)

weepiper said:


> If women weren't doing it, someone else would have to. You (men) benefit from it by not having to do it. Or having to pay higher taxes so that someone could be paid to do it.



Not sure I agree with the second bit of that post - I don't think capitalism could survive the loss of unpaid womens labour - I think getting rid of it means getting rid of capitalism so it's possible that both women and _most_ men would be better off.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 2, 2014)

weepiper said:


> If women weren't doing it, someone else would have to. You (men) benefit from it by not having to do it. Or having to pay higher taxes so that someone could be paid to do it.



Do men and women face each other as distinct classes, with unique interests?
Do men benefit from shit paternity leave? Do notions of the male bread winner ultimately benefit men? Does the brutalisation so prevalent with the construction/imposition of masculinity benefit all men, even as they self destruct into emotional retarded, violent messes? 

Certainly the double shift overwhelmingly effects women but would say the demand for wages for housework be against the class interests of working class men? Essentially are womens demands fundamentally at odds with mens? I mean the way you talk about higher taxes erases any sort of actual class analysis. Whose taxes?

I don't think men so much benefit from patriarchy as just don't suffer the worst of it as much. It's like everyone is swallowing shit but some have to swallow more of it than others and even odder some people identify with their particular shit eating role because being a shit eating man is somehow something to be proud of and lord over women.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 2, 2014)

Left said:


> all men have male privilege - I can't believe this is even controversial. Gay men are disadvantaged in lots of ways, including by misogyny, but they are not part of the sex class.



It's controversial because not everyone agrees with it as a description or as an explanation. There are other analyses of women's oppression that aren't feminist, such as those made by Marxists. Sexism divides the working class, and women's unpaid labour strengthens capitalism, enables it to reproduce and survive. In whose interest is this?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 2, 2014)

What I don't get about the idea of men inherently benefiting from sexism is this - surely men with female partners who they care about and believe are their equals (and this must be the majority of men?) also suffer from misogyny on a number of levels rather than benefiting. Having your female partner subjected to verbal or physical gender violence causes distress and if you look at it from a purely economic point of view, if you are at least partly reliant on the wage of your female partner then you suffer from the wage gap as well.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2014)

Men benefit from sexism in the sense that it means they end up privileged over women in equivalent situations. They get paid more for doing the same jobs than women, they are allowed to do more things than women are etc etc. That is surely not controversial?

It may well be the case that everyone would benefit if there was no sexism, but part of the point of it as a social phenomenon is to create privileged groups.


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Men benefit from sexism in the sense that it means they end up privileged over women in equivalent situations. *They get paid more for doing the same jobs than women, they are allowed to do more things than women are etc etc. That is surely not controversial?*
> 
> It may well be the case that everyone would benefit if there was no sexism, but part of the point of it as a social phenomenon is to create privileged groups.



Generally I agree that that men  tend to get paid more than women for doing the same work but it is not always the case.

I work in a school as a teaching assistant...EVERY other teaching assistant gets paid more than me...as they are on the top of the grade and I am at the bottom of the grade. I can never catch them up as the local authority stopped annual increments 5 years ago ... this meant that those new in post start at the bottom of the scale and stay there whereas those already in post kept their increments. I am male and all the other teaching assistants are female.
This was also the exact same situation in my previous job.

I am also not sure how my partner earning less than the men in her work place benefits me as a man...especially as she is and always has been the main earner in our family since we've had kids. She has always worked full time and I have worked part time, and been a part time stay at home "house husband" (for the want of a proper term)

I'd have thought that sexism mainly benefits ruling people/bosses who use divide and rule tactics to keep their control  and keep their costs down.

However the reaction towards the article surprises me as does the general annoyance towards the author... but I guess I  don't know enough about her. I disagree with some of what she writes but never get annoyed with what she's written.

Finally I am always surprised that lots of people who agree with the idea that all men benefit from sexism seem to strongly disagree that all white people benefit from racism which seems contradictory to me


----------



## weepiper (Jun 2, 2014)

Not all men.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 2, 2014)

This reminds me of a single dad friend of mine who gets incredibly defensive if I ever talk about some of the ways single mothers are structurally disadvantaged in our society. Despite 92% of single parents being female.


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski Equal Pay claims aren't restricted to women, y'know.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2014)

Jesus.


----------



## co-op (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> Finally I am always surprised that lots of people who agree with the idea that all men benefit from sexism seem to strongly disagree that all white people benefit from racism which seems contradictory to me



Or that all straight people benefit from homophobia, all goyim from anti-semitism, etc etc.


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski Equal Pay claims aren't restricted to women, y'know.

I know...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2014)

And people wonder why the whole "check your privilege" thing came about. It was you.


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Jesus.


I don't understand your post


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> And people wonder why the whole "check your privilege" thing came about. It was you.


don't understand this either


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2014)

No, I don't imagine so.


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

cesare said:


> comrade spurski Equal Pay claims aren't restricted to women, y'know.






			
				comrade spurski said:
			
		

> I know...


Do something about it then!


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

cesare said:


> Do something about it then!



I have no legal case...the council banned all increment rises for everyone in the council and as TA's are on council terms and conditions in all the local council controlled schools I am not being discriminated against.

I find it fascinating that when a person gives an opinion like I did people respond in a manner that seems irritated/angry etc...

The women in work ain't benefiting from me not getting increments...I was simply suggesting that imo not all men benefit...it's fine to say you disagree with me, or to think I'm wrong but please don't patronise  me... I ain't stupid ... I simply disagreed.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2014)

NOT ALL MEN


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Jesus.





FridgeMagnet said:


> And people wonder why the whole "check your privilege" thing came about. It was you.





FridgeMagnet said:


> No, I don't imagine so.



I have no idea what your problem is...
I simply gave an opinion...I did so politely...on a discussion board
Feel free to disagree but stop with the patrionising attitude...it don't lead to sensible debate just slanging matches and cheap point scoring


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> NOT ALL MEN


if you want to pull me up on something please do so in a way that I understand...Laurie pennies article states all men benefit...so why the crass cap locks and cheap point scoring?


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> I have no legal case...the council banned all increment rises for everyone in the council and as TA's are on council terms and conditions in all the local council controlled schools I am not being discriminated against.
> 
> I find it fascinating that when a person gives an opinion like I did people respond in a manner that seems irritated/angry etc...
> 
> The women in work ain't benefiting from me not getting increments...I was simply suggesting that imo not all men benefit...it's fine to say you disagree with me, or to think I'm wrong but please don't patronise  me... I ain't stupid ... I simply disagreed.


If you are doing the same work or work of equal value to female comparators, and are being paid less than those comparators - you potentially have a case (equal pay). If the council have imposed a provision, criteria or practice (in this case, stopping the increments) which results in unlawful discrimination then that's potentially another case (sex discrimination). Just because the council have decided to do something doesn't mean that it's lawful. Have you taken legal advice on this?

Edit: point to where I've patronised you please.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> if you want to pull me up on something please do so in a way that I understand...Laurie pennies article states all men benefit...so why the crass cap locks and cheap point scoring?



It's a meme.

http://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> if you want to pull me up on something please do so in a way that I understand...Laurie pennies article states all men benefit...so why the crass cap locks and cheap point scoring?


it's been very clearly demonstrated but

(a) all men do actually benefit

(b) you are banging on about about how they don't using a really tired irrelevant trope


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

the "Do something about it then!" post came across as patronising imo.

I have taken advice from my union (unite)...I am on the same grade as my colleagues but I am not entitled to increments...nor are they...however they got increments before they were stopped by the council 5 years ago...I became a TA 4 years ago so have never received the increments therefore I am paid less...had the increments still been in place my colleague would have got to the top of the grade and I would eventually have caught up with them... but as I am on the same grade as them I am not being discriminated against.

Shit for me but there you go...however I was  not trying to say I am being treated worse than women or in a sexist way but have obviously explained my point poorly so I leave the thread to get back on track


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> it's been very clearly demonstrated but
> 
> (a) all men do actually benefit
> 
> (b) you are banging on about about how they don't using a really tired irrelevant trope



Ah...you mean that that you're right and I'm wrong...
well thanks  for the insight and sorry for wasting your time


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 2, 2014)

I don't think gender inequality is disputable really but it sticks in the craw when someone with a private education under their belt suggests I check my privilege. Check your own.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 2, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think gender inequality is disputable really but it sticks in the craw when someone with a private education under their belt suggests I check my privilege. Check your own.



Can't argue with this. I haven't read Penny's article because I can't be arsed, to be quite honest.


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think gender inequality is disputable really but it sticks in the craw when someone with a private education under their belt suggests I check my privilege. Check your own.


we have been telling her that for 247 pages (and all those other ones). Think she's allowed a swing every now and then.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 2, 2014)

Neither have I. But that's her line isn't it? Apols if it isn't.


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> the "Do something about it then!" post came across as patronising imo.
> 
> I have taken advice from my union (unite)...I am on the same grade as my colleagues but I am not entitled to increments...nor are they...however they got increments before they were stopped by the council 5 years ago...I became a TA 4 years ago so have never received the increments therefore I am paid less...had the increments still been in place my colleague would have got to the top of the grade and I would eventually have caught up with them... but as I am on the same grade as them I am not being discriminated against.
> 
> Shit for me but there you go...however I was  not trying to say I am being treated worse than women or in a sexist way but have obviously explained my point poorly so I leave the thread to get back on track


It wasn't being patronising, it was an exclamation! I wouldn't leave it at that personally - Birmingham City Council springs to mind  - because being on the same grade but not being paid the same as female comparators is worth pursuing. That's a matter for you though (even if it does make me !)


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

cesare said:


> It wasn't being patronising, it was an exclamation! I wouldn't leave it at that personally - Birmingham City Council springs to mind  - because being on the same grade but not being paid the same as female comparators is worth pursuing. That's a matter for you though (even if it does make me !)


My bad if you weren't being patronising...apologies
Birmingham was based on bonuses and overtime payments...mens work being deemed as necessary to have these and womens work not...that's my memory from when I was a steward


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> My bad if you weren't being patronising...apologies
> Birmingham was based on bonuses and overtime payments...mens work being deemed as necessary to have these and womens work not...that's my memory from when I was a steward


Yes, in the case of Birmingham. But it works on basic pay too. If your council have done something that disproportionately disadvantages male pay for that job, even if the effect was achieved indirectly, it should be looked in to and resolved.


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## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

I worked in the council as aa Admin/Finance Officer in Welfare Rights Section...I was at the top of my grade...cos I chose to take a pay cut to go back to working with kids I am considered to have chosen this situation (legally speaking) according to my union's advice.
Thanks for taking the time to give me advice though ... is very kind of you


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> I worked in the council as aa Admin/Finance Officer in Welfare Rights Section...I was at the top of my grade...cos I chose to take a pay cut to go back to working with kids I am considered to have chosen this situation (legally speaking) according to my union's advice.
> Thanks for taking the time to give me advice though ... is very kind of you


I disagree with your union. Just because you chose to take that position doesn't mean that you chose to be discriminated against - firstly it's potentially an unlawful situation whether you chose to go into it or not; secondly other male TAs are also potentially being adversely affected.

Cheers anyway


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 2, 2014)

does the equal pay thing apply if you get less because you started after they stopped incremental pay rises whereas others didn't? I thought it just applied if the people getting less were from a specific gender, ethnic etc group? (genuine question, I know you know your stuff on this, I only know what I've seen in the papers and on here)


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 2, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> does the equal pay thing apply if you get less because you started after they stopped incremental pay rises whereas others didn't? I thought it just applied if the people getting less were from a specific gender, ethnic etc group? (genuine question, I know you know your stuff on this, I only know what I've seen in the papers and on here)



can't answer this as well as others as I only know what my union has advised me...
but... read you're We're All Wednesday Aren't We? post last week on another thread...told my partner who is a massive owls fan and she knows of WAWAW? but didn't know it's origins...she pissed herself  (as did our teen daughter...my baby gone and got all grown up)... it was the day she had heart tests (all clear thankfully) but it really cheered her up


----------



## cesare (Jun 2, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> does the equal pay thing apply if you get less because you started after they stopped incremental pay rises whereas others didn't? I thought it just applied if the people getting less were from a specific gender, ethnic etc group? (genuine question, I know you know your stuff on this, I only know what I've seen in the papers and on here)


Being directly discriminated against "we're going to pay you less because you're <eg male> is more clearly straightforward, and rarer because of that.

"We're going to impose a provision, criteria or practice across the board irrespective of characteristics <which on examination disproportionately adversely affects a group eg men>" is a lot harder to prove, but still discriminatory.

Councils are public sector and therefore under an additional "Equality Duty" which replaced the gender equality duty.

Equal pay audits are intended to analyse (for example) the effects of policy changes so that no unintended discriminatory effects flow from those changes. An unintended consequence might be that because there are fewer male TAs and generally they have less service than female TAs, stopping increments may result in perpetuating a pay gap.

More info here:
http://m.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1811


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## cesare (Jun 3, 2014)

Two more major equal pay claims in the pipeline: http://www.thehrdirector.com/legal_...ss-action-equal-pay-claims-hit-the-headlines/


----------



## xenon (Jun 3, 2014)

Well getting back to the point of why should LP's article on this fit here. OK fair enough, I'll go with men in general benefit from inherent sexism, the patriarchy. I speak as an unemployed disabled bloke but you know it's not all about me. Or you. The Notallmen thing is a meme for those who don't know... But I'm and I think most posting in this here thread are not about to take lessons in privilege from the likes of LP quite frankly.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 3, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> it's been very clearly demonstrated but
> 
> (a) all men do actually benefit
> 
> (b) you are banging on about about how they don't using a really tired irrelevant trope



But there were several people posting who disagreed with statement (a) so I don't know why you're picking at the arguments of only one poster, apart from that he talked about his own experience of pay inequality, which renders him vulnerable to the not all men meme, which incidentally, I also had to look up.

People who oppose sexism and the oppression of women don't necessarily think that all men benefit from it. This has been a debate on the left for decades, it's not conclusive at all. As you can see from the several people who posted alternative arguments.


----------



## cesare (Jun 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> LP claims that all men benefit from sexism without (as far as I can tell) explaining how or much at all really http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism


How did we miss this last August?


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 3, 2014)

I think all of us chaps do benefit from the patriarchy, although we do not do so equally - some men benefit enormously, others hardly at all.
But I still think it's a poor article. Internally inconsistent, and as ever with L.P, it's all about individual attitudes, not systems. And the writing! Check this out:

"Without invoking dull gender stereotypes about multitasking, we should all agree that it’s relatively easy to hold more than one idea at a time in the human brain. It’s a large, complex organ, the brain,* about the size and weight of a horrible, rotting cauliflower*, and it has room for many series’ worth of trashy TV plot lines and the phone number of the ex-lover you really shouldn’t be calling after six shots of vodka. If it couldn’t handle big structural ideas at the same time as smaller personal ones, we would never have made it down from the trees and built things such as cities and cineplexes."

_...Paging Dr Freud..._


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> to be fair, without reading the article, that is basically true.



As a generalisation, absolutely, but where Penny takes the premise? It's crap.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> I disagree as I do not think it is a fact that all men benefit from sexism.



It's a generalisation, obviously, but on the whole men as a sex *do* benefit from sexism.  I can't think of anywhere significant where this isn't the majority case socially, economically and culturally.  We benefit by/from pay differentials, social attitudes, cultural assumptions and a host of other "facts on the ground".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 3, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> But there were several people posting who disagreed with statement (a) so I don't know why you're picking at the arguments of only one poster, apart from that he talked about his own experience of pay inequality, which renders him vulnerable to the not all men meme, which incidentally, I also had to look up.


Probably not very constructive of me really, no, sorry.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> The problem I have with the argument that all men benefit from sexism isn't that it's not true - at a basic level it clearly is, in that all other things being equal men do better out of society as it is than women (badly phrased I know but you know what I mean). It's more that if you just leave it at that it kind of sounds like all men would be worse off if we were to do away with patriarchy/sexism (or whatever you want to call it). Which makes it sound like all men have a material interest in maintaining sexism.
> 
> Fortunately I don't actually think that's true, because it's one of the props holding capitalism up and keeping it functioning (unpaid labour contributing to the social surplus bla bla bla). So on another level most men (in particular working class ones) lose out as a result of sexism, since without it the system that exploits us couldn't be maintained and conversely some women - female capitalists for example - derive material benefits from it while still being affected negatively as compared to men in a similar position.
> 
> ...



Yep.  While the generalisation holds true, any finer-grained analysis turns up all sorts of factors (class, race etc) that confound things if you try to focus the generalisation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> Finally I am always surprised that lots of people who agree with the idea that all men benefit from sexism seem to strongly disagree that all white people benefit from racism which seems contradictory to me



That is often because people take claims like "all white people benefit from racism" personally (because even tangential accusations of racism get taken personally by most people!), rather than seeing the claim not as a slur on individuals or community, but as an ongoing historical truth insofar as institutionalised practices (in, for example, the British criminal justice system) mean that *in general* whites were, and will be privileged over non-whites.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> I have no legal case...the council banned all increment rises for everyone in the council and as TA's are on council terms and conditions in all the local council controlled schools I am not being discriminated against.
> 
> I find it fascinating that when a person gives an opinion like I did people respond in a manner that seems irritated/angry etc...
> 
> The women in work ain't benefiting from me not getting increments...I was simply suggesting that imo not all men benefit...it's fine to say you disagree with me, or to think I'm wrong but please don't patronise  me... I ain't stupid ... I simply disagreed.



You're projecting your personal situation onto the canvas of general male benefit derived from sexism, and using it to say "not all men benefit", while missing the point insofar as the established differentials that are already in existence.  Yes, you're one male suffering from a pay differential, but your differential didn't come about due to a deliberate devaluing of female labour.  The pay differentials that still exist between male and female salaries *did* come about because of that sort of institutionalised sexism.

BTW, writing "ain't" doesn't prove membership of the proletariat, comrade!


----------



## Balbi (Jun 3, 2014)

Not all New StatesMen


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 3, 2014)

#notallpublicschooloxbridgegraduates


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## comrade spurski (Jun 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're projecting your personal situation onto the canvas of general male benefit derived from sexism, and using it to say "not all men benefit", while missing the point insofar as the established differentials that are already in existence.  *Yes, you're one male suffering from a pay differential, but your differential didn't come about due to a deliberate devaluing of female labour.* The pay differentials that still exist between male and female salaries *did* come about because of that sort of institutionalised sexism.
> 
> BTW, writing "ain't" doesn't prove membership of the proletariat, comrade!



I do agree with the bit in bold and actually said in the bit you quoted in this post that the women I work with are not benefiting.

I also agree with the bit underlined.

I was not trying to use my situation to generalise in any way I was simply trying to show that things are no always so simplistic...to be honest I understand I poorly explained myself but I think that stating ;

"Men benefit from sexism in the sense that it means they end up privileged over women in equivalent situations. *They get paid more for doing the same jobs than women, they are allowed to do more things than women are etc etc. That is surely not controversial?" *


is over simplified and my post was in response to that. It don't make me right it means I disagree.
I also wrote that I don't understand how my partner not being paid the same amount as men benefits me....not to score cheap points but because I genuinely don't ... this effects all men with a female partner in work...if pay was equal then they'd have a higher household income.

I think my life is easier in some ways because I ain't judged on how I looked in the same way women are, I don't have unwanted attention put upon me in the same way women, I don't get judged on my age in the same way etc.
I am considered to be a "good partner" cos I do the majority of the housework and child care yet women are simply expected to do these things and get little (if any) respect for it.

I do not fear sexual attack nor am I expected to shave my legs and arm pits, pluck my eye brows etc.

I think that in a majority of careers it is easier to progress if you are male and that many men are higher paid than men for equivalent work.

But I think that over simplifying things does not necessarily lead to the correct answers.

In my view men do not benefit from women being paid less ... it effects household incomes of millions of men who have female partners. If their female partners were equally paid, given equal chances of promotion, bonuses etc. then the men would benefit.

I could well be wrong...I may have explained myself poorly but I fail to see why me having and opinion leads people like Fridge Magnet start being so rude...it was like listening to some swp hack bending the stick.

As for me not needing to use the word "ain't"...that totally contradicts everythings ones mockney coach has taught me over the years in my private tuition sessions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> As for me not needing to use the word "ain't"...that totally contradicts everyone ones mockney coach has taught me over the years in my private tuition sessions.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 3, 2014)

Molly Crabapple asks Donald Trump a question. He doesn't answer. She leaves at the end. That's a Vice article.

http://www.vice.com/read/i-confronted-donald-trump-in-dubai


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

> If you get too comfy in rich-people land, in New York or Dubai, you might stay here and belong to them.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 3, 2014)

I thought the title said 'Donald trumped in Dubai' which would have been a much more interesting article.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 3, 2014)

Don't even fucking start me


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I thought the title said 'Donald trumped in Dubai' which would have been a much more interesting article.




I'm sure he did pass wind in the desert- a real sirroco of a fart I imagine.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

look at the drawing of the arab bloke.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 3, 2014)

The comments, DEAR GOD.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

> it is well documented historical fact that slaves did not build the pyramids, they were public works project initiated by the Pharaoh in order to provide employment in times of hardship, they were well housed and well compensated for their services. Egyptians under these programs built not only monuments like Pyramids, obelisks, or other such constructions - but irrigation canals and large scale agricultural ventures to increase yearly yield


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a generalisation, obviously, but on the whole men as a sex *do* benefit from sexism.  I can't think of anywhere significant where this isn't the majority case socially, economically and culturally.  We benefit by/from pay differentials, social attitudes, cultural assumptions and a host of other "facts on the ground".


300+ men die in coal mine in Turkey. How did they benefit from sexism? Surely its because of patriarchy it was all men underground?


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're projecting your personal situation onto the canvas of general male benefit derived from sexism, and using it to say "not all men benefit", while missing the point insofar as the established differentials that are already in existence.  Yes, you're one male suffering from a pay differential, but your differential didn't come about due to a deliberate devaluing of female labour.  The pay differentials that still exist between male and female salaries *did* come about because of that sort of institutionalised sexism.
> 
> BTW, writing "ain't" doesn't prove membership of the proletariat, comrade!


Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.


Yes, and why do we (generally) 'take on' lower paid, more often part-time jobs? Because it's us that (generally) does the childcare. And we have to take a job that allows us to do it. And why are part-time jobs low-paid? Because we're being exploited.


----------



## killer b (Jun 3, 2014)

jesus.


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


>


It's true. The pyramids were the ancient equivalent of HS2.


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yes, and why do we (generally) 'take on' lower paid, more often part-time jobs? Because it's us that (generally) does the childcare. And we have to take a job that allows us to do it. And why are part-time jobs low-paid? Because we're being exploited.


Who's denying that?

eta: are you suggesting that women ought to be paid more than men? I'd rather we work toward a situation where men do more childcare.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:
			
		

> 300+ men die in coal mine in Turkey. How did they benefit from sexism? Surely its because of patriarchy it was all men underground?



How did they benefit?  They were able to earn a living mining coal, women weren't.  Their death wasn't a "benefit".  Their ability to secure a living was and is.
And yeah, you're right, it *is* because of patriarchy that it was all men, but that doesn't make men relatively as oppressed as women, it simply means that sometimes other social and cultural factors exert influences too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.



What part of "generalisation" and my comments about some individual cases differing from the generality, did you have trouble understanding?  
And why do you think that women might be taking those jobs, hmmm?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> jesus.



no, rioted.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 3, 2014)

What the fuck


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> eta: are you suggesting that women ought to be paid more than men?



 Yes, yes of course that's what I'm suggesting. Obviously I must be suggesting that.


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> How did they benefit?  They were able to earn a living mining coal, women weren't.  Their death wasn't a "benefit".  Their ability to secure a living was and is.
> And yeah, you're right, it *is* because of patriarchy that it was all men, but that doesn't make men relatively as oppressed as women, it simply means that sometimes other social and cultural factors exert influences too.


LOL

So the benefits they accrued were due to Patriarchy but the penalties weren't? You have a very strange view of what patriarchy is.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

this sort of reaction is what justifies penny's branes btw.


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yes, yes of course that's what I'm suggesting. Obviously I must be suggesting that.


It follows about as closely as your reply to me does.


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> What part of "generalisation" and my comments about some individual cases differing from the generality, did you have trouble understanding?
> And why do you think that women might be taking those jobs, hmmm?


Because the patriarchy conspires against men doing childcare?


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> It follows about as closely as your reply to me does.


My reply was because you seem to have no understanding whatsoever of why more women are in low-paid, part-time work. It's not because we're choosing it. We're trapped there.


----------



## cesare (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Do male supermarket checkout operators get paid more than women? Do teachers? The difference is not in women being paid less than men for the same job as much as women taking on lower paid, more often part-time jobs.


Equal pay for the same work or work of equal value is still an issue - Birmingham City Council's had to sell the NEC to fund compensation. For example.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Because the patriarchy conspires against men doing childcare?




well how come there are vastly more women teaching infants/keystage 1 than men. Is that because it's natural or is it because of societal expectations that lead less men to take on that role (and the never-far-from-sniggered nonce musings)?

using phrasing like 'patriarchy conspires' makes it sound like you are casting people as paranoids looking over their shoulders and being done down by the secret council of patriarchs. Its a descriptor for systemic inequality- process not agency


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

weepiper said:


> My reply was because you seem to have no understanding whatsoever of why more women are in low-paid, part-time work. It's not because we're choosing it. We're trapped there.


You might be. It may come as a surprise to you but a lot of women WANT part-time (or no) work so they can spend more time with their kids. For the work they do, they are NOT paid less than men. Like I said, I wish more men did more childcare.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> You might be. It may come as a surprise to you but a lot of women WANT part-time (or no) work so they can spend more time with their kids. For the work they do, they are NOT paid less than men. Like I said, I wish more men did more childcare.



Are you _actually _pulling the 'you hold the egg this way, Grandma' trick?


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

These women obviously chose their situation then I suppose.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/down-rabbit-hole-single-parenthood-austerity-britain


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Equal pay for the same work or work of equal value is still an issue - Birmingham City Council's had to sell the NEC to fund compensation. For example.


Mainly because they wouldn't fund the increase by cap on higher scales. We went through the same thing in Nottingham City Council. The poorest paid, yes mostly but not all women, were given pay rises at the expense of other low paid workers. My grade as an IT technician was reduced so that I ended up with less money than I'd started on 10 years previously. Most of the people who lost out were women. Result!


----------



## Balbi (Jun 3, 2014)

Not all women


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

weepiper said:


> These women obviously chose their situation then I suppose.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/down-rabbit-hole-single-parenthood-austerity-britain


Yeah, because all single parents are women. This effects ALL single parents of whatever gender. Your over-concentration on women in that role just reinforces patriarchy. The problem is NOT that these are women, it is that they're single parents.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Yeah, because all single parents are women. This effects ALL single parents of whatever gender. Your over-concentration on women in that role just reinforces patriarchy. The problem is NOT that these are women, it is that they're single parents.


92 fucking percent.


----------



## killer b (Jun 3, 2014)

come back Laurie. All is forgiven.


----------



## cesare (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Mainly because they wouldn't fund the increase by cap on higher scales. We went through the same thing in Nottingham City Council. The poorest paid, yes mostly but not all women, were given pay rises at the expense of other low paid workers. My grade as an IT technician was reduced so that I ended up with less money than I'd started on 10 years previously. Most of the people who lost out were women. Result!


It's a significant example of unequal pay, to counter your claim that pay is now equal. There are another couple of current large scale examples that I linked to last night. Pay differential isn't just a feature of women doing lower status and/or part time work although that's also true.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

*dons shoddy superhero costume*


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

weepiper said:


> 92 fucking percent.


Yeah, and we should still have "mother & toddler" groups 'cos women do most childcare.  Thank fuck we managed to change here to "parent & toddler" to encourage more men. You're stuck in the present - find ways to move forward. I would encourage more people to work part time' you seem to be bigging up full-time wage slavery.


----------



## rioted (Jun 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> *dons shoddy superhero costume*


Fuck off.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

nice of you to address the piss take rather than the serious post I made earlier. Easier I suppose.


----------



## Ole (Jun 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> How did they benefit?  They were able to earn a living mining coal, women weren't.  Their death wasn't a "benefit".  Their ability to secure a living was and is.
> And yeah, you're right, it *is* because of patriarchy that it was all men, but that doesn't make men relatively as oppressed as women, it simply means that sometimes other social and cultural factors exert influences too.



Oh get to fuck! Being 'able' to earn a living doing a highly dangerous occupation such as coal-mining in Turkey is a privilege?

You might as well have said a dead prostitute was privileged to have been able to earn a living as long as she did before she was 'killed on the job'. 

What a sick attitude.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

argh


----------



## chilango (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Yeah, and we should still have "mother & toddler" groups 'cos women do most childcare.  Thank fuck we managed to change here to "parent & toddler" to encourage more men. You're stuck in the present - find ways to move forward. I would encourage more people to work part time' you seem to be bigging up full-time wage slavery.



Seriously?


----------



## Ole (Jun 3, 2014)

If you can see how capitalism exploits the biology of women in as many ways as it does, but wherever it similarly exploits the biology of men you think it appropriate to resituate that exploitation into being a privilege over women, you are a useful fucking idiot for the enemy.

Dying as a coal miner as male privilege. For fuck's sake.  Fuck off.



DotCommunist said:


> argh



Well go on then?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 3, 2014)

rioted said:


> Yeah, and we should still have "mother & toddler" groups 'cos women do most childcare.  Thank fuck we managed to change here to "parent & toddler" to encourage more men. You're stuck in the present - find ways to move forward. I would encourage more people to work part time' you seem to be bigging up full-time wage slavery.


I'm not sure its actually possible to avoid being stuck in the present. last time I checked the laws of physics weren't optional.


----------



## Favelado (Jun 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm not sure its actually possible to avoid being stuck in the present. last time I checked the laws of physics weren't optional.



You need a holiday in Tralfamadore.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm not sure its actually possible to avoid being stuck in the present. last time I checked the laws of physics weren't optional.


Cut him some slack. He's just trying to find a way that he can tell himself it's my fault.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 3, 2014)

fucking hell ole, I don't know where to start with that. I'd have another read of the posts you're replying to if I were you - some of the views you're attributing to others bear no relation to what they've said.


----------



## Ole (Jun 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> fucking hell ole, I don't know where to start with that. I'd have another read of the posts you're replying to if I were you - some of the views you're attributing to others bear no relation to what they've said.


Start wherever you like mate. It's just one post I'm really replying to (ViolentPanda's) and he genuinely argued that dead Turkish miners benefited from sexism by 'having the ability' to earn a living in a non-unionised coal-mining industry, which was so dangerous that 300 of them were killed in one incident with the risk of many more. Read his post again if you think I'm misrepresenting his views.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/goto/post?id=13180843#post-13180843

I think it was out of order what he said and I stand by that. Where's my massive fuck-up then Spiney? What's so unspeakable about what I've said?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 3, 2014)

Ole said:


> Start wherever you like mate. It's just one post I'm really replying to (ViolentPanda's) and he genuinely argued that dead Turkish miners benefited from sexism by 'having the ability' to earn a living in a non-unionised coal-mining industry, which was so dangerous that 300 of them were killed in one incident with the risk of many more. Read his post again if you think I'm misrepresenting his views.
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/goto/post?id=13180843#post-13180843
> 
> I think it was out of order what he said and I stand by that. Where's my massive fuck-up then Spiney? What's so unspeakable about what I've said?



That's not what you claimed he said - you claimed he said getting killed in the mines showed they were benefiting from sexism. The actual point was that their role as wage earners gives them economic independence denied to most women in Turkey. 

My view of it? At a fairly superficial level men to benefit from sexism, in that all other things being equal we are generally better off than women in this society. But at a more profound level we (as in working class men) lose out because of it, as it is essential for the perpetuation of capitalism and therefore the perpetuation of our exploitation.

Where did I say what you said was unspeakable?


----------



## Ole (Jun 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> *That's not what you claimed he said - you claimed he said getting killed in the mines showed they were benefiting from sexism. *The actual point was that their role as wage earners gives them economic independence denied to most women in Turkey.
> 
> My view of it? At a fairly superficial level men to benefit from sexism, in that all other things being equal we are generally better off than women in this society. But at a more profound level we (as in working class men) lose out because of it, as it is essential for the perpetuation of capitalism and therefore the perpetuation of our exploitation.
> 
> Where did I say what you said was unspeakable?



Mate that is just false. I never made that claim. You're now just talking bollocks pal. I claimed he said that dead miners benefited from sexism. Which is accurate. That is what he said.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 3, 2014)

Do we have actual MRA's on here now


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 3, 2014)

not taking the piss but what does MRA's mean?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> not taking the piss but what does MRA's mean?


Men's Rights Activists, I believe


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 3, 2014)

cheers mate...
never heard of it before...sounds a bit nutty like fathers for justice to me


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> cheers mate...
> never heard of it before...sounds a bit nutty like fathers for justice to me




they are just fighting for the rights historically denied to men.


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 3, 2014)

well when you put it like that then it all makes perfect sense


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 4, 2014)

Ole said:


> Mate that is just false. I never made that claim. You're now just talking bollocks pal. I claimed he said that dead miners benefited from sexism. Which is accurate. That is what he said.



You certainly implied it by adding this to the end:



> You might as well have said a dead prostitute was privileged to have been able to earn a living as long as she did before she was 'killed on the job'.



It's really quite simple. Working down a mine is shit. But it's less shit than having almost zero control over any aspect of your life. This really didn't ought to be controversial.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 4, 2014)

Out of interest, has anyone knowingly met an MRA? I'm certainly not denying they exist or are a problem - they clearly do and are - it's just I've only ever seen them on the internet and in newspaper articles about fathers 4 justice. Maybe I have met them and they've just been sensible enough to hide their principled stand against misandry from me?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 4, 2014)

I've known a few dads pissed off about the visitation/childcare arrangements but none who turned it into a political movement. More just grumbling and in one case having to get near court before the mum entered into discussion about the issue.

but no torch bearers for the MRA


----------



## Ole (Jun 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> You certainly implied it by adding this to the end:
> 
> 
> 
> It's really quite simple. Working down a mine is shit. But it's less shit than having almost zero control over any aspect of your life. This really didn't ought to be controversial.



How does that remark of mine imply that I claimed ViolentPanda said getting killed in the mines shows the miners benefited from sexism?




frogwoman said:


> Do we have actual MRA's on here now



Are you levelling that accusation at me?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Out of interest, has anyone knowingly met an MRA? I'm certainly not denying they exist or are a problem - they clearly do and are - it's just I've only ever seen them on the internet and in newspaper articles about fathers 4 justice. Maybe I have met them and they've just been sensible enough to hide their principled stand against misandry from me?



Yes. About as creepy as you'd expect and the last I heard of him he'd been arrested for hitting his girlfriend.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Yes. About as creepy as you'd expect and the last I heard of him he'd been arrested for hitting his girlfriend.


‘Striking a blow for the movement’


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I've known a few dads pissed off about the visitation/childcare arrangements but none who turned it into a political movement. More just grumbling and in one case having to get near court before the mum entered into discussion about the issue.
> 
> but no torch bearers for the MRA



Yeah me too - and in some cases can't really blame them - but I've never met any who thought this was some kind of manifestation of a feminist conspiracy against men or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

rioted said:


> LOL
> 
> So the benefits they accrued were due to Patriarchy but the penalties weren't? You have a very strange view of what patriarchy is.



Try not to put words in my mouth, there's a good chap.
And if you can't resist putting words into peoples' mouths, at least try to be original.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

rioted said:


> Because the patriarchy conspires against men doing childcare?



You really don't take anything on-board, do you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Not all women



Or rather, the hoary old "not all men!" wearing its' mother's party dress and slingbacks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

rioted said:


> Yeah, and we should still have "mother & toddler" groups 'cos women do most childcare.  Thank fuck we managed to change here to "parent & toddler" to encourage more men. You're stuck in the present - find ways to move forward. I would encourage more people to work part time' you seem to be bigging up full-time wage slavery.



Wow, a mansplaination!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

Ole said:


> Oh get to fuck! Being 'able' to earn a living doing a highly dangerous occupation such as coal-mining in Turkey is a privilege?



Two generations of my father's side of the family worked in the pits east of Rotherham.  I'm well aware of how dangerous mining is. 
If the social structure is such that only a sector of the population is able to take the opportunity to put food on the family table, then work is, _de facto_, a "privilege".
Guess what, Nortbert? Privilege is relative.



> You might as well have said a dead prostitute was privileged to have been able to earn a living as long as she did before she was 'killed on the job'.
> 
> What a sick attitude.



Only if you're enough of a twat to think that "privilege" means something it doesn't, Einstein.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

Ole said:


> If you can see how capitalism exploits the biology of women in as many ways as it does, but wherever it similarly exploits the biology of men you think it appropriate to resituate that exploitation into being a privilege over women, you are a useful fucking idiot for the enemy.
> 
> Dying as a coal miner as male privilege. For fuck's sake.  Fuck off.



"Wherever"?  get over yourself!
As I said further up the thread, sometimes other social and cultural factors are involved.  In this case, those social and cultural factors militate against women in supposedly "inappropriate" workplaces - women are effectively diverted (if at all) into other work, often the traditional role of child-rearer and all-round carer.  For me, that very obviously makes men around Soma relatively-privileged over women.  Yes, it's a shitty "privilege", and yes, it'd be better if it didn't exist, but it does, and it fuels the sort of reactive and reactionary assumptions about gender roles that are already well-established, as much here as in Turkey.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

Favelado said:


> You need a holiday in Tralfamadore.



Avoid Billy, though.  He's a bit of a bore once he starts recounting his war stories.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Out of interest, has anyone knowingly met an MRA? I'm certainly not denying they exist or are a problem - they clearly do and are - it's just I've only ever seen them on the internet and in newspaper articles about fathers 4 justice. Maybe I have met them and they've just been sensible enough to hide their principled stand against misandry from me?



I have, but not for over 20 years (then again, I don't get out anywhere near as much as I did back then), and that was a small group that used to "protest" outside of any event in south London that had even a vague whiff of feminism to it (even outside Lambeth Council meetings, back when Linda Bellos was at lambeth in the late '80s). elves "men for change" or something similarly nondescript. 
I knew one of them because he'd been a year above me at secondary school. I wasn't surprised that he was anti-feminist, and believed that women were privileged over men, mostly because while charming and personable, he'd been the vainest, most self-centred person in a school of 900 males, so reacting against anything that removed him from the centre of attention seemed to me to be natural behaviour for him.  I got talking and bought him a pint, and it was the same old same old - his wife had stolen his kids from him, and poisoned their minds (nothing to do with his own behaviour, obviously!) - and it was part of a feminist conspiracy, not the fact that he was a donkey's rectum.
Nowadays I think it's a little less permissible to voice such sentiments aloud, but that doesn't stop people from holding them.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Out of interest, has anyone knowingly met an MRA?



Yes. The father of an ex. Became obsessed with the family courts after a marriage broke up. Then followed the oft tread path from feeling hard done by, to "fathers rights" to more generalised misogyny. I didn't know him before the transformation but I'm told he wasn't a reactionary at all beforehand.


----------



## Ole (Jun 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Two generations of my father's side of the family worked in the pits east of Rotherham.  I'm well aware of how dangerous mining is.
> *If the social structure is such that only a sector of the population is able to take the opportunity to put food on the family table, then work is, de facto, a "privilege".*
> Guess what, Nortbert? Privilege is relative.
> 
> ...


That is a very simple-minded point of view.

This latest tragedy in Turkey demonstrates how duplicitous this rhetoric of 'well it's shit but at least you can earn a living' actually can be. You can't earn a living when your job literally kills you. 

Do you draw no line whatsoever? Surely you must. How poor do the working conditions, and how high does the risk of death have to be in a workplace before work is not a 'privilege'?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 5, 2014)

sometimes oppressions intersect.

it is possible that, depending on how you look at things, the right to work is both a privilege and an oppression.

all wage-slavery is oppression.  not being allowed to earn a living is also an oppression.

these situations can exist at the same time because of context and should not pose a mental problem, surely?


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 5, 2014)

There's an issue around meaning here isn't there? I think for most people, their associations with the word privilege are wealth, the kind of wealth enjoyed by the upper middle class, and all the advantages of that. Which is somewhat different to the way in which privilege is being used to describe the relative advantages of being a man in a sexist society. Using it with the second meaning and it being seen or heard with the associations of the first is going to cause some pissedoffness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2014)

Ole said:


> That is a very simple-minded point of view.
> 
> This latest tragedy in Turkey demonstrates how duplicitous this rhetoric of 'well it's shit but at least you can earn a living' actually can be. You can't earn a living when your job literally kills you.
> 
> Do you draw no line whatsoever? Surely you must. How poor do the working conditions, and how high does the risk of death have to be in a workplace before work is not a 'privilege'?


work is not a privilege. it is a life sentence of hard labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Avoid Billy, though.  He's a bit of a bore once he starts recounting his war stories.


used to know a man who, within five minutes, would turn a conversation from any imaginable topic to german weapons of the second world war.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2014)

Ole said:


> That is a very simple-minded point of view.



It's a *simplistic* point of view - you can't generalise and not be simplistic - but I disagree that it's "simple-minded".



> This latest tragedy in Turkey demonstrates how duplicitous this rhetoric of 'well it's shit but at least you can earn a living' actually can be. You can't earn a living when your job literally kills you.


Thing is, for most of our history, *not* earning a living has been a very effective method of killing off the working class.  If your choice is Hobson's Choice, then you get your head down, and get on with it, and here, post- The Factories Acts, that meant adult male labour in the mines and iron and steel mills, and adult labour in the textile mills, regardless of the danger.  Better a modicum of food on the table, however dangerous earning it was, than the alternatives.



> Do you draw no line whatsoever? Surely you must. How poor do the working conditions, and how high does the risk of death have to be in a workplace before work is not a 'privilege'?



Yet again you're missing the context I've used "privilege" in.  I don't mean that work should be *seen* as a privilege, I mean that gender roles have historically privileged males over females, and that one of the arenas this has historically played out in is with regard to access to work - access to the ability to look after you and yours, even if you have to sell your labour to do so.
What sort of line can be drawn between "not too risky to do, in order to feed your family", and "too risky to do", when there's no other "safety net" but the workhouse, where the mortality rates were generally higher than the local non-workhouse population?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 5, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> used to know a man who, within five minutes, would turn a conversation from any imaginable topic to german weapons of the second world war.


Why did you remain in touch, then? Was it some kind of Panzerfaustian pact?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Why did you remain in touch, then? Was it some kind of Panzerfaustian pact?




he was a regular in a pub i used to drink in


----------



## Ole (Jun 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a *simplistic* point of view - you can't generalise and not be simplistic - but I disagree that it's "simple-minded".
> 
> 
> Thing is, for most of our history, *not* earning a living has been a very effective method of killing off the working class.  If your choice is Hobson's Choice, then you get your head down, and get on with it, and here, post- The Factories Acts, that meant adult male labour in the mines and iron and steel mills, and adult labour in the textile mills, regardless of the danger.  Better a modicum of food on the table, however dangerous earning it was, than the alternatives.
> ...



I know you're generalising and obviously there is a degree of truth to the idea. My point is that I believe one instance in which your generalisation of 'greater access to work = greater privilege' fails to hold true is when you are talking about these miners, because of the state of their rights and working conditions. I also believe the massive loss of life attests to that. 

I just choose to draw the line there. I think there comes a point where the conditions placed on the opportunity to earn some money are so ruthless and harsh that it is no privilege at all to have it. I mean, what if the fatality rate in coal-mining there shot up massively, by say 200%? 300%? Surely even you would agree, at some point? If it is Hobson's choice, they must take it, and massive numbers will die, to be replaced by even more desperate people. It isn't reasonable to describe being coerced into doing something and seriously risk death doing it, as a privilege.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2014)

Ole said:


> I know you're generalising and obviously there is a degree of truth to the idea. My point is that I believe one instance in which your generalisation of 'greater access to work = greater privilege' fails to hold true is when you are talking about these miners, because of the state of their rights and working conditions. I also believe the massive loss of life attests to that.
> 
> I just choose to draw the line there. I think there comes a point where the conditions placed on the opportunity to earn some money are so ruthless and harsh that it is no privilege at all to have it. I mean, what if the fatality rate in coal-mining there shot up massively, by say 200%? 300%? Surely even you would agree, at some point? If it is Hobson's choice, they must take it, and massive numbers will die, to be replaced by even more desperate people. It isn't reasonable to describe being coerced into doing something and seriously risk death doing it, as a privilege.



And yet, when one uses the same "economic conscription" argument to discuss why members of the working class join the army, allowing themselves to be coerced into doing something and seriously risk death by doing it, a lot of people won't accept it. 

The privilege is relative to the availability of work. If the only work is coal mining, and the only people allowed to do that work are men, then what is taking place, if not the privileging of one sex over another - men being supposedly better able to do mining than women? Sure, those men are also being "privileged" with the greater likelihood of dying, but constructing your argument around the danger inherent to any profession misses out on what gets constructed around the attitudes around "mens' work" - all those sundries that get added with regard to "male as breadwinner".


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jun 5, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> There's an issue around meaning here isn't there? I think for most people, their associations with the word privilege are wealth, the kind of wealth enjoyed by the upper middle class, and all the advantages of that. Which is somewhat different to the way in which privilege is being used to describe the relative advantages of being a man in a sexist society. Using it with the second meaning and it being seen or heard with the associations of the first is going to cause some pissedoffness.


It's pretty unfortunate vocabulary, isn't it? 
If you were going to design a word specifically for the purposes of setting different groups of people at each other's throats then "privilege" would be it...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm quite enjoying http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6124&sid=9044ee33cfab017e5629337b6f8cc58a which predictably started going rapidly downhill and at the moment has earned the OP a week's ban.


----------



## Ole (Jun 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet, when one uses the same "economic conscription" argument to discuss why members of the working class join the army, allowing themselves to be coerced into doing something and seriously risk death by doing it, a lot of people won't accept it.
> 
> The privilege is relative to the availability of work. If the only work is coal mining, and the only people allowed to do that work are men, then what is taking place, if not the privileging of one sex over another - men being supposedly better able to do mining than women? Sure, those men are also being "privileged" with the greater likelihood of dying, but constructing your argument around the danger inherent to any profession misses out on what gets constructed around the attitudes around "mens' work" - all those sundries that get added with regard to "male as breadwinner".



It's not reasonable to analogise a miner with a soldier is it? There are serious moral questions involved with that occupation, e.g. signing yourself up as an agent to murder who you're told to. 

Regardless, the *level* of coercion is also an important moral consideration. It's one thing going into an occupation because you can't stand the dole, and another being effectively completely coerced because your son needs medical treatment every month to stay alive (a story I read about one of the dead miners in Soma) and that's the only game in town. Whether it's the mines or the army.

Taking the dangers of an occupation into consideration of how privileged being in it is, doesn't have the implication of ignoring the issue of sexist attitudes about what men's work and women's work is. Not taking the dangers into consideration at all on the other hand simply ignores the realities facing those workers, and any assessment of their 'relative privilege' without considering those issues is likely to be very flawed as I believe yours is. 



Red Cat said:


> There's an issue around meaning here isn't there? I think for most people, their associations with the word privilege are wealth, the kind of wealth enjoyed by the upper middle class, and all the advantages of that. Which is somewhat different to the way in which privilege is being used to describe the relative advantages of being a man in a sexist society. Using it with the second meaning and it being seen or heard with the associations of the first is going to cause some pissedoffness.



That equivocal effect may play subconsciously, but I believe even without it, its use can just be an obscenity in some contexts.


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Penny pours forth on behalf of the part Murdoch-owned anti-Bolivarian Vice Magazine http://www.vice.com/read/what-is-this-europe-that-you-keep-talking-about


This is the 2nd worst bit -  Top Gear scripted by Scott Templeton. On another day she might've seen fit to "nerd out" at the atomium, comics museum or Marx stuff, or maybe wheedle a couple of made up quotes out of members of the large immigrant population. 





> Brussels is dull. It smells of bland, deep-fried things and traffic. The people are quietly friendly. The staple foods are claggy and soporific: beer and french fries and chocolate and more beer. Its short, stocky buildings resemble every medium-size European city that hasn’t been flattened by bombs at any point in the last century, with the interesting bits shaved off, and its most popular tourist attraction is a small statue of a little boy pissing into a fountain. Brussels is very, very dull.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> This is the 2nd worst bit -  Top Gear scripted by Scott Templeton. On another day she might've seen fit to "nerd out" at the atomium, comics museum or Marx stuff, or maybe wheedle a couple of made up quotes out of members of the large immigrant population.



Brussels is the only city I visited where you could sort of sense the racial tension and see the stark divide between the white Belgians and the non-white Belgians. It's also a city where being British has, until now, associated you instantly with the BNP (as they're cuuuuunnnts). Luckily, we've got UKIP now


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 6, 2014)

"Smooth jazz wafts over the Place du Luxembourg. The sun is shining, the drinks are cheap, and the soundscape is peppered with polite conversation from the little cafés around the square. Here, *mass unemployment, the collapse of public health, and incipient street fascism are abstract issues—things to discuss over beer and waffles."*

Aren't they always 'abstract issues to discuss over beer and waffles' for the intrepid Penny though?

Whatever journalism is, this aint it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm starting to think that LP is actually some kind of Stewart Home-type ‘artist’.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 6, 2014)

What sort of shithead complains about cheap beer, chips, chocolate and waffles? Brussels is only dull if you hang around in the EU quarter.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 6, 2014)

jazz should always be described as wafty though


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 6, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Out of interest, has anyone knowingly met an MRA? I'm certainly not denying they exist or are a problem - they clearly do and are - it's just I've only ever seen them on the internet and in newspaper articles about fathers 4 justice. Maybe I have met them and they've just been sensible enough to hide their principled stand against misandry from me?


I used to know this one
http://jezebel.com/tag/the-hatred-of-women

 triggeralert.blogspot.com

lovely.


----------



## benedict (Jun 6, 2014)

http://digital-deadly-sins.theguardian.com/#/Grid

Bragg in his 'mancave'


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm starting to think that LP is actually some kind of Stewart Home-type ‘artist’.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm starting to think that LP is actually some kind of Stewart Home-type ‘artist’.



As in "one-off-the-wrist artist"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> What sort of shithead complains about cheap beer, chips, chocolate and waffles? Brussels is only dull if you hang around in the EU quarter.



And she forgot that it's not "French fries", it's "frites", and that theyre at their best accompanied by mussels and mayonnaise


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 55247


always the weakest series of Wire for me.


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> always the weakest series of Wire for me.


That's the general consensus isn't it. I just finished watching all of it.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> always the weakest series of Wire for me.



I agree, a lot of people dislike Season 2 but I think that it was one of the strongest.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> That's the general consensus isn't it. I just finished watching all of it.




for me they'd done street level stuff, docks/drug dealing/schools-  then the leap to fourth estate that didn't work. And the red ribbon murder stuff didn't ring true


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I agree, a lot of people dislike Season 2 but I think that it was one of the strongest.



is two the dockers and longeshoremen, union corruption? my fave n all.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah it is, I think a lot of people find it hard to connect to. Sadly I think that's cos it's one of their few exposures to unions in pop culture or even generally


----------



## killer b (Jun 6, 2014)

season 2 was brilliant, one of my favourites too.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2014)

Utter nonsense from Owen Jones here suggesting that Newark voters voted tactically to keep out UKIP, he celebrates Labour and Lib Dem voters going for the Tories to keep out UKIP. This is what passes for logic from the left of the British political caste.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Utter nonsense from Owen Jones here suggesting that Newark voters voted tactically to keep out UKIP, he celebrates Labour and Lib Dem voters going for the Tories to keep out UKIP. This is what passes for logic from the left of the British political caste.



i saw that and was going to put it on here.   i've never seen such bollocks.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2014)

Exactly, it's patently not true and if it were true then it wouldn't exactly be something to celebrate to say the least.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 6, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> I used to know this one
> http://jezebel.com/tag/the-hatred-of-women
> 
> triggeralert.blogspot.com
> ...



that sounds like a really shit happy shopper version of james blunt


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Exactly, it's patently not true and if it were true then it wouldn't exactly be something to celebrate to say the least.



lol I just said exactly the same thing on a facebook whatsit!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Utter nonsense from Owen Jones here suggesting that Newark voters voted tactically to keep out UKIP, he celebrates Labour and Lib Dem voters going for the Tories to keep out UKIP. This is what passes for logic from the left of the British political caste.


That is proper headbanging out of touch with reality stuff. I wonder how that could have happened.

The left's dan hodges says that UKIP is now over. Again, how could he think that? What sort of ongoing scenario could give him such and idea?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 7, 2014)

Has Owen been on Urban? 





> There is a debate raging on the left about how to deal with Ukip. Some believe that it is counterproductive to label Ukip – let alone its voters – as racist, lest it fuels a sense of the muesli-eating, sandal-wearing "liberal elite" closing ranks to shut down debate.



If he's gonna quote me he should fucking attribute it to me


----------



## chilango (Jun 7, 2014)

He's also missing the point.

Owen, if you're here, read a little more carefully eh?


----------



## killer b (Jun 7, 2014)

christ, I hope it's a discussion that's going on a bit further afield than just here.


----------



## chilango (Jun 7, 2014)

killer b said:


> christ, I hope it's a discussion that's going on a bit further afield than just here.



Oh it is, I'm sure.

Just not sure where else "a debate raging on the Left" could occur these days.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 7, 2014)

not now that firebox has closed anyway.


----------



## chilango (Jun 7, 2014)

Maybe in the network of Peoples Assemblies in communities and workplaces across the country?


----------



## killer b (Jun 7, 2014)

on twitter? That seems to be the trendy place for debate nowadays.


----------



## chilango (Jun 7, 2014)

killer b said:


> on twitter? That seems to be the trendy place for debate nowadays.


----------



## rekil (Jun 7, 2014)

Hope lies in the twitterleft.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2014)

blog comment sections


----------



## rekil (Jun 7, 2014)

Whatever kiez tavern guardian people drink in.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 7, 2014)




----------



## equationgirl (Jun 7, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



It is a genuine observation of the state of the London houseing market, but I'm not as sympathetic to someone going to study at one of the most expensive universities in the world as I am to say someone being forced to move out of their support network because they can't afford to stay there.


----------



## rekil (Jun 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It is a genuine observation of the state of the London houseing market, but I'm not as sympathetic to someone going to study at one of the most expensive universities in the world as a I am to say someone being forced to move out of their support network because they can't afford to stay there.


Are things so bad that even the smartest kid from a smart school can't get a reasonably well paid day job that would still enable her to knock out those 6 or 7 opinion pieces a month? I think not. 

Anthony Seldon claims he doesn't know how many kids at Wellington College get full fees paid. Liar factories these places. Newman should've thrown a bit of chalk at him.

http://www.channel4.com/news/passing-on-the-privilege-of-public-schools-video


----------



## chilango (Jun 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Anthony Seldon claims he doesn't know how many kids at Wellington College get full fees paid.



I believe him.

He wouldn't have a fucking clue.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 7, 2014)

Yeah, _genuinely_ afraid. Like she's had her Housing Benefit suspended for 2 months because she had a £4 per week pay rise, like I just have. Fuck you sideways, Laurie.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yeah, _genuinely_ afraid. Like she's had her Housing Benefit suspended for 2 months because she had a £4 per week pay rise, like I just have. Fuck you sideways, Laurie.


 on your behalf. Fuck them sideways indeed.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yeah, _genuinely_ afraid. Like she's had her Housing Benefit suspended for 2 months because she had a £4 per week pay rise, like I just have.


*FFS*


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 7, 2014)

Oh look, she wants us to do her homework for her again 



*Laurie Penny*  @PennyRed     ·    9h 
Tweet me your #*londonhousing* stories. I have moved c.12 times in 7 years. Currently sharing a room in Willesden.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 7, 2014)

Laurie Penny said:
			
		

> I have moved c.12 times in 7 years.



Almost as if it's not them, it's you...


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 7, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Almost as if it's not them, it's you...


I moved a lot in my twenties  - left uni at 22 moved 9 times over the next 7 years. Being in the same place for the next 7 years was liberating because suddenly I was in control of when I moved.

Last but one time we had to move out of the flat we were in because the landlord wanted to sell it. It then sat empty for the next 8 months.


----------



## xenon (Jun 8, 2014)

I only haven't moved because I'm lucky enough to be in social housing. Last private rental gaff before I had to move because landlord was selling the place. I was technically homeless... Only for a fortnight but still. I coulda got an article in the Guardian about that yeah?


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 8, 2014)

xenon said:


> I only haven't moved because I'm lucky enough to be in social housing. Last private rental gaff before I had to move because landlord was selling the place. I was technically homeless... Only for a fortnight but still. I coulda got an article in the Guardian about that yeah?


Totally  - probably two articles if you tried hard.


----------



## xenon (Jun 8, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Totally  - probably two articles if you tried hard.


Dam. I coulda monitised it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 8, 2014)

xenon said:


> Dam. I coulda monitised it.


What's _wrong_ with you, don't you _want_ to be successful?


----------



## xenon (Jun 8, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> What's _wrong_ with you, don't you _want_ to be successful?



This is why we need the commenterriate. Who else will pen our truths from Harvard.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 8, 2014)

xenon said:


> This is why we need the commenterriate. Who else will pen our truths from Harvard.


I bet she keeps up her New Statesman column etc whilst she's over there. I'm surprised she hasn't asked for a room on Twitter yet (Harvard Square of course).


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jun 8, 2014)

The last gaffe I had before this one I got my teeth knocked down my throat for answering the door. That was a laugh.


It actually was a laugh - TBH, I didn't really give a shit and my colleague who bundled the assailants out of the door went "You're a twat you, now I've saw them off you're laughing about it". Which I was.

Still though laurie, there's loads of empty flats up there with the bedroom tax and that.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 8, 2014)

there is, of course, more to just bad housing experience than having to move a lot.  there's also not being able to move from a bad situation due to poverty.  many of us who have had to move around lots crave the security of being able to stay in one place - but just because someone hasn't had to move in 5 years doesn't mean their housing is secure, decent, or appropriate.  families in hostels, beds in sheds, living in shitty shared housing because you can't afford the deposit on a new place.  there's a lot of other experiences other than transience.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 8, 2014)

its almost like the bastards running things use housing precarity to keep us docile, that or personal debt. Of course getting rich at the same time.


----------



## flypanam (Jun 9, 2014)

Willesden? I live there. Haven't seen her in Sainsbury's or in Flynn's or McGowan's. Must be in Angie's III where she gets her pints.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jun 9, 2014)

flypanam said:


> Willesden? I live there. Haven't seen her in Sainsbury's or in Flynn's or McGowan's. Must be in Angie's III where she gets her pints.


Was in angies yesterday for the Roscommon v mayo game , no sign of her but maybe she was in the pool room?


----------



## Limerick Red (Jun 9, 2014)

I did notice both the willesden and cricklewood McGowans were closed yesterday when I was doing me Sunday rounds.


----------



## flypanam (Jun 9, 2014)

She must be in the Number 8.

If the McGowan pubs are closed, its pretty sad. What next the Lucky 7? McGlynn's?


----------



## Limerick Red (Jun 9, 2014)

flypanam said:


> She must be in the Number 8.
> 
> If the McGowan pubs are closed, its pretty sad. What next the Lucky 7? McGlynn's?


No fear of the 7 closing...always busy, I am boycotting the place though.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 11, 2014)

Anyone following the Sarah Kendzior versus Jacobin twitter war? Truly bizarre and quite educational.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 11, 2014)

i'm going to google those people now, i may come to regret this.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 11, 2014)

can't see how i lose anything by not having been aware of either of those things before.  what nonsense is the war about?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 11, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> can't see how i lose anything by not having been aware of either of those things before.  what nonsense is the war about?



Amber A'Lee Frost wrote a piece for Jacobin about the term "bro". It mostly argues that dismissing  certain types of expertise, interest or knowledge as "bro" stuff is counterproductive for feminists. In a slightly odd and incongruous aside she said that she thought that talking about real male violence or threats of violence in "cutesy" terms like bro is also ill conceived and linked to a tweet by Sarah Kendzior to illustrate that aside. The link was quickly removed, presumably after complaints.

So far, so not that interesting. Where it gets educational is the next stage: Kendzior complains on twitter that the Jacobin piece "mocked" her rape threats. And so starts a massive twitter storm, targeted at Frost and Megan Erickson, a Jacobin editor. People all over twitter performing solidarity with  Kendzior, the Jacobin women getting called rape apologists by people who clearly have no idea what the arguments were about, crazier and crazier stuff. By now the whole thing is in Newsweek, Salon, even libertarian rag Reason.

(Frost and Erickson are little known Marxist types associated with Jacobin, Kendzior is a leftish mainstream journalist, with a slightly incongruous past connection to Freedom House).

It's perhaps the archetypal left wing twitter row. A perfect encapsulation of the culture and process.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 11, 2014)

Never heard of her.  Important middle class people arguing with important middle class people?


----------



## weepiper (Jun 11, 2014)

Who?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2014)

"Performing solidarity" is a great phrase Nigel Irritable


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 11, 2014)

I say who?

Never heard heard of either of them. I can confirm that my life has been unaffected by not knowing about this.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 11, 2014)

If these people were English you would know who they are. Or at least you would know who Kendzior is. You probably already know what Jacobin is, even if the writers and editors aren't widely known in their own right.

The point isn't that any of these people are of particular importance to the lives of anyone here.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> "Performing solidarity" is a great phrase Nigel Irritable



Yes, but unfortunately I didn't come up with it!


----------



## killer b (Jun 11, 2014)

depressingly, the original article is quite thoughtful and thought-provoking.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 11, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The point isn't that any of these people are of particular importance to the lives of anyone here.



If threads had subtitles, this would be ours!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 12, 2014)

killer b said:


> depressingly, the original article is quite thoughtful and thought-provoking.


 
It is actually. If it's true that people are trying to portray actual _use of data _some sort of macho, masculine thing that's potentially quite troubling.

The other stuff just seems like more twitter bickering that I can't be bothered to try to understand.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 12, 2014)

yeah, that is quite an interesting article.  was worth a read for sure.  also not going to worry about the twitter stuff because i hate twitter.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Was in angies yesterday for the Roscommon v mayo game , no sign of her but maybe she was in the pool room?




prob on the fruit machine


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 12, 2014)

killer b said:


> depressingly, the original article is quite thoughtful and thought-provoking.


Hmm, I'm not so sure. It doesn't really discuss the worthwhile critique of data use (which admittedly some haters of data use may be unaware of). The interesting critique is about how data is used as a trump card in an argument because it is 'objective'. But data is not objective. It seems so, but it isn't. Personal judgements went into what data should be collected, how it would be collected, what data would not be collected. With hard work you can try to deal with some of these problems but you can't get rid of all of them. For instance, you can't know all the data not collected, because there are both known unknowns and unknown unknowns, as Donald would say.

So to give an example of 'correct' data not being objective, here is a piece of data (which I'll invent but we'll pretend I collected for the sake of the argument):  _In the period 1920 to 1940 there were 1500 violent attacks per year by black men against white men in the southern US. Only 10% of the perpetrators were brought to trial._

I could now write an entire essay on the basis of this data, all the time claiming it to be 'objective'. But it isn't objective, even though the data is technically correct. It's a bit of a crass example I grant you, but almost every use of data can carry similar problems. If we're aware of it that's fine, but then we can no longer use data as quite the trump card we used it as before.

So it's a shame the article doesn't really get into why it is that people got pissed off with data use in the first place. The problem is people using it as 'objective' and attempting to invalidate other arguments (and other methods) through the claim to objective authority.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 12, 2014)

That just underlines the importance behind asking questions about the range of data, the methodology used in collecting it, etc. In other words the correct response to dodgy/cherry-picked data is better data, not to swear it off completely.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 12, 2014)

NoXion said:


> That just underlines the importance behind asking questions about the range of data, the methodology used in collecting it, etc. In other words the correct response to dodgy/cherry-picked data is better data, not to swear it off completely.


 Your best will never be 'objective' however, particularly in social problems (as opposed to snooker ball problems) because in social problems the potential amount of data to be collected tends towards the infinite.

The point of this critique isn't to swear off data and never use it, the point is to undermine the authority of it. Because it often pretends to a level of authority that can't really be justified.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 12, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> Your best will never be 'objective' however, particularly in social problems (as opposed to snooker ball problems) because in social problems the potential amount of data to be collected tends towards the infinite.
> 
> The point of this critique isn't to swear off data and never use it, the point is to undermine the authority of it. Because it often pretends to a level of authority that can't really be justified.



Sod "objective", there's no such thing. There is such a thing however as better or more comprehensive data.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 12, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> Hmm, I'm not so sure. It doesn't really discuss the worthwhile critique of data use (which admittedly some haters of data use may be unaware of). The interesting critique is about how data is used as a trump card in an argument because it is 'objective'. But data is not objective. It seems so, but it isn't. Personal judgements went into what data should be collected, how it would be collected, what data would not be collected. With hard work you can try to deal with some of these problems but you can't get rid of all of them. For instance, you can't know all the data not collected, because there are both known unknowns and unknown unknowns, as Donald would say.
> 
> So to give an example of 'correct' data not being objective, here is a piece of data (which I'll invent but we'll pretend I collected for the sake of the argument):  _In the period 1920 to 1940 there were 1500 violent attacks per year by black men against white men in the southern US. Only 10% of the perpetrators were brought to trial._
> 
> ...



I think that's a slightly odd criticism of the article tbh. It's talking about things being portrayed as macho and therefore bad, of which big data use is an example but other male dominated fields are touched on. What may be a better criticism of how data is used isn't the point.


----------



## killer b (Jun 12, 2014)

'but the article doesn't cover this!'

well yeah. cause the article isn't really about that.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 12, 2014)

The article was interesting. The twitterspat, not so much.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 12, 2014)

Disgusting rape threats aside (I haven't kept with the intimate details of this journalist) but she hardly covers herself in glory on Twitter.

http://eliasisquith.tumblr.com/post/88326927050/on-the-sarah-kendzior-incident


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 12, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think that's a slightly odd criticism of the article tbh. It's talking about things being portrayed as macho and therefore bad, of which big data use is an example but other male dominated fields are touched on. What may be a better criticism of how data is used isn't the point.


But the article fails to understand why there is a feminist/post-structuralist critique of data use, and why it might be described as 'macho'. The article thinks it is just about data coming from sciency male-dominated fields but I think that misunderstands why some people are suspicious of data or describe it as macho. There is a whole discourse behind this about the assumed authority of science (or data), and the role of data in systems of (patriarchal, capitalist etc) domination, and the way people use assumed authority to silence opposing points of view.

So the article doesn't entirely understand critiques of data use (perhaps just got noddy versions off twitter, where people summarise the criticism with the word 'macho', or are even using discourse they only half understand). My criticism of the article is that it doesn't understand or recognise the debate it has wandered into. Which is why I may be appearing to talk past the article.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 13, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> But the article fails to understand why there is a feminist/post-structuralist critique of data use, and why it might be described as 'macho'. The article thinks it is just about data coming from sciency male-dominated fields but I think that misunderstands why some people are suspicious of data or describe it as macho. There is a whole discourse behind this about the assumed authority of science (or data), and the role of data in systems of (patriarchal, capitalist etc) domination, and the way people use assumed authority to silence opposing points of view.
> 
> So the article doesn't entirely understand critiques of data use (perhaps just got noddy versions off twitter, where people summarise the criticism with the word 'macho', or are even using discourse they only half understand). My criticism of the article is that it doesn't understand or recognise the debate it has wandered into. Which is why I may be appearing to talk past the article.



From what I can tell it understands the critiques of data use that form the focus of the article very well - I've encountered these kinds of people in real life and they really do think that purely emotional arguments based only on subjective experience (as opposed to arguments that are sensitive to, but not purely based on, said experience) should trump reasoned evidence based discussion every time.

Isn't your response along the same likes as someone attacking an article that takes on creationist critiques of Darwinism on the basis that it doesn't mention Stephen Jay Gould and punctuated equilibrium?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 13, 2014)

Firstly, I don't think it is.

Secondly, why is PR, as an avowed anarchist, bothered about the election?


----------



## killer b (Jun 13, 2014)

what's she talking about?


----------



## weepiper (Jun 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> what's she talking about?



Milibland being pictured gurning with The Sun, I expect.


----------



## killer b (Jun 13, 2014)

oh. she's a fucking idiot then.


----------



## killer b (Jun 13, 2014)

no news there I guess.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 13, 2014)

It's an utter irrelevance as regards the next election - that sort of stuff could only come from within a bubble of right-on types. What's more revealing is that she's still team-labour, that's who her _our _is. But of course, this can't be openly declared can it?


----------



## rekil (Jun 13, 2014)

Just noticed this dizzgusting attempt at #silencing.




			
				Hungary eurovision guy said:
			
		

> "I wrote this song about a childhood friend of mine, and people I have met with similar stories throughout my life. Unfortunately my friend was victim to child abuse, domestic violence. I wrote this song about their experiences and everything that they went though. I would like to raise awareness to this topic."


He's a POC, which makes it a little bit racism as well.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2014)

Thought this might go here..

http://gawker.com/lefty-writer-chri..._source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow



> Last week, the New Republic accused Chris Hedges, the Pulitzer-winning ex-New York Times reporter and antiwar essayist, of plagiarism. A further investigation by Gawker has found that Hedges has published writing suspiciously similar to that of left-wing hero Amy Goodman, and that he has been recycling and reselling his own old work as original writing to multiple outlets for at least a decade.
> 
> The preponderance of the evidence suggests that in addition to borrowing liberally from sources as diverse as Hemingway and fellow Harper's contributors, Hedges—an antiwar icon who has published widely and prolifically since leaving the Times more than a decade ago—is also a serial self-plagiarist, on the order of the disgraced New Yorker writer Jonah Lehrer.
> 
> Gawker examined a variety of Hedges' online writings for similarities to other works. The investigation, which focused especially on the writer's earliest columns for the liberal site Truthdig beginning in 2006, was neither systematic nor scientific. But of approximately 20 pieces examined, at least half exhibited verbatim similarities to older work, either Hedges' or someone else's. The similarities ran from a few lines to several thousand words.


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> As in "one-off-the-wrist artist"?



A Jackson Bollock, as it were.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Thought this might go here..
> 
> http://gawker.com/lefty-writer-chri..._source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow



Self-plagriasm is a silly point and detracts from the more serious allegations.

Penny falling into her tried and tested sympathy route after being called out by WoC





A lot of it seemingly went down in the reponses to this tweet


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2014)

i have never seen laurie penny wearing a slip


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 17, 2014)

The hashtag is in relation to this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/your-slip-is-showing-4chan-trolls-operation-lollipop


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> The hashtag is in relation to this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/your-slip-is-showing-4chan-trolls-operation-lollipop



So Laurie Penny was actually created by 4chan? Things make so much more sense now.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 17, 2014)

It turns out one of LP's regular WOC contacts is a sockpuppet for 4chan


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 17, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So Laurie Penny was actually created by 4chan? Things make so much more sense now.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 17, 2014)




----------



## Balbi (Jun 17, 2014)

Parameters.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2014)

You would think that it would be some time for some self-evaluation upon discovering that your positions/the positions of people you use as contacts and support are indistinguishable from misogynist parody... but no.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 17, 2014)

Penny's still following that sock puppet account.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Penny's still following that sock puppet account.



She bought this?


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 17, 2014)




----------



## Theisticle (Jun 18, 2014)

The ego to co-opt a story where the biggest victims were black feminists.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...n-posing-online-feminists-leftists?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> The ego to co-opt a story where the biggest victims were black feminists.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...n-posing-online-feminists-leftists?CMP=twt_gu


 
co-authored with a black feminst tbf.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 18, 2014)

No mention of the #yourslipisshowing hashtag which was a grassroots movement by black feminists to the expose the troll accounts, big lapse. 

Ouch:


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> The ego to co-opt a story where the biggest victims were black feminists.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/18/sexist-racist-online-sabotage-wont-win-posing-online-feminists-
> 
> ...



Are you seriously suggesting that Penny can't write about a story involving black women (and presumably white men doing the trolling) because she is white?

Or are you objecting to something particular that she said?


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 18, 2014)

More the fact that she's excluded other black voices who suffered and went on to expose the abusers. Shoddy. She's entitled to write about it, she just did a shitty job.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> More the fact that she's excluded other black voices who suffered and went on to expose the abusers. Shoddy. She's entitled to write about it, she just did a shitty job.



What does "she's excluded other black voices who suffered" mean in this context? That she can write about a story involving black women (and white men) but only if she devotes it to a roll call of black women who suffered, with little quotes from each so their "voices" aren't "excluded"?

Have you been spending too much time on twitter recently?

Penny's article is, as so often, trivial and glib, although as it's about a nasty 4chan stunt that's oddly appropriate in this case. But this line of criticism is a particularly silly form of solipsistic twitter intersectionalism - if she doesn't write about this kind of thing she is a typical "white feminist" (boo! the worthless worms!), only interested in white women. If she does write about it, she is "erasing" or talking over black women's voices. If she co-writes an article about it with a black woman, well that's tokenism and she's deciding which black voices get a platform (and of course excluding others"). She can't win that game.

Now I don't have too much sympathy for her - she chooses to play that game, she knows the rules, and she will respond by abasing herself suitably. But this particular line of criticism is a pile of horseshit.


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## Rural (Jun 19, 2014)

If those were the criticisms aimed at LP I would think them simplistic & self-defeating. I think the problem is more concerned with LP's history of trivialising struggles while centring them on herself & missing their point. It's her touristy way that I find objectionable. To state you are an activist, anarchist, anti-racist, etc rabble-rouser & then make the same mistakes again & again when writing about issues of oppression, despite a history of apologising & promising to learn from past criticisms, suggests a fake-naivety & lack of self-(or any) awareness that is surprising given her age, education & past experiences. It's almost as if she welcomes the chance to call Black women bullies, safe in the knowledge that her boss & the leftwing white media have her back.  I've cringed my way through many LP articles & feel she has been harshly treated at times, but I see a pattern here. And it's one of her own making.

Btw this is my first post, never felt brave enough to write anything on here before, but I have tried to keep up with this thread for a while!


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## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2014)

Welcome to the thread Rural 

It takes a while to feel brave enough to post in the politics forum, took me a good few years of being on urban before I felt brave enough.

I think she does make the pattern of behaviour, and her articles often make me cringe too.


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## Rural (Jun 19, 2014)

equangirl said:


> Welcome to the thread Rural
> 
> It takes a while to feel brave enough to post in the politics forum, took me a good few years of being on urban before I felt brave enough.
> 
> I think she does make the pattern of behaviour, and her articles often make me cringe too.


Thanks  
Ive tried in the past to make excuses for her cos she gets SO much horrible crap, but thats just patronising after a while. Also some of my irl pals are/used to be friends with her. Plus i always think of her as really young, but i think that's possibly due to her writing! She may mean well (the road to hell...) but imo she's becoming more disingenuous, eg by always promising to listen & learn, then doing the same thing. I was cringing when she started to use the fact she had had fun co-writing with a Black woman in her defence...it just goes on 
Ive


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## co-op (Jun 19, 2014)

Rural said:


> .
> 
> Btw this is my first post, never felt brave enough to write anything on here before, but I have tried to keep up with this thread for a while!



Welcome to P&P . If you've been following I guess you can see it gets a bit feisty sometimes so I recommend being a bit meh about any apparently aggressive replies or comments - it happens to everyone.


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## Theisticle (Jun 19, 2014)

Rural said:


> If those were the criticisms aimed at LP I would think them simplistic & self-defeating. I think the problem is more concerned with LP's history of trivialising struggles while centring them on herself & missing their point. It's her touristy way that I find objectionable. To state you are an activist, anarchist, anti-racist, etc rabble-rouser & then make the same mistakes again & again when writing about issues of oppression, despite a history of apologising & promising to learn from past criticisms, suggests a fake-naivety & lack of self-(or any) awareness that is surprising given her age, education & past experiences. It's almost as if she welcomes the chance to call Black women bullies, safe in the knowledge that her boss & the leftwing white media have her back.  I've cringed my way through many LP articles & feel she has been harshly treated at times, but I see a pattern here. And it's one of her own making.
> 
> Btw this is my first post, never felt brave enough to write anything on here before, but I have tried to keep up with this thread for a while!



You've articulated my original criticism better, Penny found out about the story a day before that article was published. She sent out a few tweets and did some basic research. It's her way of inserting herself into the story without listening to the many valid criticisms people had about her writing about this.

E.g. engaging the trolls and not the actual black women who were exposing it.


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## Rural (Jun 19, 2014)

If you're going to write an article knowing full well who the main players are, don't seem that worried if they have doubts about talking to you, write the article anyway (having done all this b4 with uncomfortable results), can you really b surprised when you face the same criticisms (again answered by eg, but one of my friends is Black!, please don't b mean to me, I have good intent, oh you've already made your minds up). The best I can say to LP is Good luck in your career. IMO trying to have a career as an activist is going to make ppl distrust you, cos when it comes down to it, you are on the side of the status quo.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 19, 2014)

Rural said:


> To state you are an activist, anarchist, anti-racist, etc rabble-rouser & then make the same mistakes again & again when writing about issues of oppression, despite a history of apologising & promising to learn from past criticisms, suggests a fake-naivety & lack of self-(or any) awareness that is surprising given her age, education & past experiences.



Welcome to the board.

I'd certainly agree that Penny can write about any issue in a manner that's both superficial and self-involved. But what are these "mistakes" she makes "again and again" when "writing about issues of oppression", which she then must "apologise" for, precisely? Apologies aren't being demanded over and over again because her writing is self-involved - or if they are, some of her critics are outrageous hypocrites.

As an aside the line about "almost" welcoming the "chance to call black women bullies" is itself pure twitter: anointing a small number of individual black women involved in any particular row as representatives a large demographic, allowing white women and men on the same side of the same rows to wrap themselves in vicarious blackness, while also "almost" but not quite accusing someone of racism on the flimsiest of grounds.

You are right about the contradictions between "activism" and professional journalism. Lots of journalists have had to navigate those waters over the years, but it's particularly hard for Penny to do because so much of her, ahem, professional brand is bound up with her activist image.


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## Rural (Jun 19, 2014)

I'll try to make myself more clear. I don't think LP has to apologise for anything, imo constantly apologising while making no effort to change is pointless. Some ppl (not saying LP, idk) enjoy indulging in guilt, hand-wringing, etc which I find useless & not a good substitute for action. the mistakes LP is said to have made again & again can b summed up by her eagerness to jump on bandwagons, ie, sex work, matters of Black identity, anti-racism, in her column in NS, all these subjects being concerned with power, resistance, identity, abuse, erasure,etc. Unfortunately, given her rather large platform compared to many activists (which she claims to be) LP tackles these subjects in a clumsy, gauche & yes, ppoffensive manner. Eg if you are going to write about Black women being attacked, doxed, threatened & how several Black women discovered this plan, it would surely be important to talk to at least one or two of these women (I think there were only 2 or 3 who were involved in the exposure & I found them within seconds on twitter, it's not hard). However LP grabbed a Black English woman (all the actual Black women targeted were in USA) wrote an article for the guardian, never actually mentioning the women targeted, how they found out, or any of the pertinent details. i wonder why she bothered to write the article at all. Oh yes, to make money out of the situation. 

Yes I am accusing her of racism. She may mean well, I'm sure she does, but if u have a platform like she does & profess to b anti-racist, u should at the very least not write erasing articles with yourself as the main point if reference


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## Rural (Jun 19, 2014)

Sorry got cut off & I've lost my thoughts a bit! I've tried hard to have sympathy for LP but her articles & selfpity r getting worse. She also put some pals of mine in danger during the riots, through basically being manipulative & silly. So I've goe off her now.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 19, 2014)

Ever shagged a camel? If not can you in all conscience call yourself rural?


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## Rural (Jun 19, 2014)

Actually I'm more suburban than rural but someone had that user name.

There aren't any actual camels round here but I smoke them if someone offers me one, as I can only afford baccy, so ciggies r a rare treat.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 20, 2014)

Zero Books:



> Working the Aisles: A Life in Consumption
> All the world is not a stage, anymore - the world is a supermarket. This book relates one man's struggle to go 'working the aisles'.
> 
> Working the Aisles takes the reader on tumultuous driving trips across the United States and France, on phone sex escapades in San Francisco, on banking battles in Sweden, and many other adventures – including, of course, on trips to supermarkets, where the author has had to ‘work the aisles’. Moving back and forth through time, like a novelist, indeed in something of a memoirist tour de force, the book develops the story of struggle, of poverty and depression, but also of gaiety and desire, of a will to live in spite of it all, and to keep working the aisles. It moves the reader through highs and lows, through episodes of ecstasy and thoughts about suicide, and tells how this particular Everyman ended up sane but sorry.


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## J Ed (Jun 20, 2014)

I don't understand what that book is about? Is it a story of him doing jobs and that?


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2014)

looks like a psychogeography/social journey type thing. They have their place if not done wank


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 20, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I don't understand what that book is about? Is it a story of him doing jobs and that?



Exactly! Is is about working, shopping or shoplifting in an actual supermarket or... What?


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Exactly! Is is about working, shopping or shoplifting in an actual supermarket or... What?




possibly because I have been reading Kathleen Jaime's Findings I can sort of get the idea. It's obviously meant to be a journey, a described journey. Significant moments will be produced. Think it wants to be a bit street n all. I'd give it a go, it sounds a bit wank but then these sorts of thing often are- not always. But often.


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## rekil (Jun 21, 2014)

Bargain or what.

Writing compelling columns with Owen Jones



> This course is designed for anyone who writes because they have things they want to say, debates they want to provoke or issues they want to raise. A well-written column backed up with strong research is an effective way to raise issues and represent causes and people that are otherwise airbrushed out of existence. Whatever your point of view, award-winning Guardian columnist Owen Jones can help you to turn your own knowledge and passion into a persuasive argument.


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## J Ed (Jun 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Bargain or what.
> 
> Writing compelling columns with Owen Jones



This course is for you if...

You want to be able to completely ignore the history of the party, group or organisation that you shill for.
You want to learn how to write article after article as if you are suddenly astonished that a neoliberal party is behaving like a neoliberal party.
Your party, group or organisation is being attacked from the left and you want to give your followers the vaguest bit of hope of change.


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## weepiper (Jun 21, 2014)

I'm perfectly capable of writing a compelling column by myself cheers Owen. Can you help me get it from a little blog that a few hundred people see to a well-paid regular column in a national newspaper? No? I have to have been to Oxbridge for that? Right, I think I'll just keep my 40 quid then ta.


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## butchersapron (Jun 21, 2014)

How much does the oxbridge cost?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Bargain or what.
> 
> Writing compelling columns with Owen Jones



Owen is monetising his Oxbridge education.
Probably best, as his "hotness" would only appeal to those who like teenage boys.


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## rekil (Jun 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Owen is monetising his Oxbridge education.


There's probably a clause in his guardian contract making this kind of nonsense mandatory. He's only following orders. The 2nd comment was a bit beneath you. I am going to get PD fan stavvers to call you out m8.

Meanwhile, Rachel Rosenfelt (lest we forget, new Ink-wirry co-founder and chum of Occupy chancer Malcolm Harris) is off to Gawker to be something called 'an Executive Producer.'

As mentioned previously, her da is John Hagel III who puts out books with go-getter titles like The Power Of Pull.


> Our goal is to show how organizations can make large scale transformations in a series of smaller pragmatic steps. We call these approaches Pragmatic Pathways, and they are designed to help organizations accomplish more with less by circumventing their organization’s political and financial obstacles, leveraging disruptive technologies and building strong relationships in their broader ecosystems to share information and risk.


I'm guessing this waffle is essentially about getting people to work for nothing.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> There's probably a clause in his guardian contract making this kind of nonsense mandatory. He's only following orders.



That's not a valid defence.



> The 2nd comment was a bit beneath you. I am going to get PD fan stavvers to call you out m8.



You should know by now that absolutely *nothing* is beneath me! 
Also, it's not my fault the guy looks like a baby-faced teen, and would therefore be poster material for perves!



> Meanwhile, Rachel Rosenfelt (lest we forget, new Ink-wirry co-founder and chum of Occupy chancer Malcolm Harris) is off to Gawker to be something called 'an Executive Producer.'
> 
> As mentioned previously, her da is John Hagel III who puts out books with go-getter titles like The Power Of Pull.
> 
> I'm guessing this waffle is essentially about getting people to work for nothing.



Would that be Malcolm Harris, the notorious promoter of unlawful sexual relations and serial monetiser of his address book?


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 21, 2014)

Would I be risking legal action by suggesting that the most credible explanation for Harris' weird views on age difference in sexual relationships is that he's probably a nonce? I think it might be, which is precisely why I'm not going to make that suggestion.


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## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2014)

copliker I liked the bit where the article said 



> “It’s not a role that exists right now,” she said. “They’re building a role around my talents. Part of it will be involving editorial, as well as recruiting. I’m helping to realize Gawker’s strategic objectives and shaping what they are.”



And she doesn't believe in diversity either:



> The hiring comes not long after Gawker Media was publicly criticized for having no full-time female employees on its sports site, _Deadspin_. Conversely, _The New Inquiry_ has drawn praise for publishing a wide and diverse group of voices. Rosenfelt said she was interested in helping _Deadspin_ recruit more female staffers but her main concern is “talent.”
> 
> “I don’t recruit for diversity and never have,” she said. “I recruit for talent. At _The New Inquiry_ we found that the best available talent is people that no one is looking at. This is because organizations overly rely on networking.”



I'm not saying anyone should be employed solely on things like gender, sexuality, race, disability but to state that you don't believe in recruiting for diversity is a pretty bold thing to say.


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## Belushi (Jun 21, 2014)

Yes, surely one of the arguments for diversity is that you miss out on so much talent if you're only recruiting people like you.


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## el-ahrairah (Jun 21, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Would I be risking legal action by suggesting that the most credible explanation for Harris' weird views on age difference in sexual relationships is that he's probably a nonce? I think it might be, which is precisely why I'm not going to make that suggestion.



it's only occam's razor, tbf.  see also Hari and his paedophile-incest writings


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## Theisticle (Jun 21, 2014)

More faux radicalism:



> was preparing myself to vote Labour with gritted teeth if there were no good Green candidates in my area but I’d feel far less dirty about the whole thing if I knew I was getting my own owl.



These next few paragraphs are just excruciating to read. Like a teenage confessional. 


> I do have a few questions, though. I want to know if the owls will be standardised. Who-whoo do I contact if my owl is defective? Will I have to raise my owl from a chick, feeding it tiny little gross bits of mouse and mince, or will it be presented to me personally by the council on the day Miliband swoops into power? Will the unemployed have to turn up at the Raptor Centre twice a week in order to keep their owl? How long will asylum seekers have to wait until they receive an owl of their own? What if some people, perhaps because of cultural differences, might prefer a different bird of prey, say a buzzard or a crested goshawk? Will small boys in Northern towns be allowed to keep their kestrels? If we must have an owl, can we choose what kind?  The public demands answers.
> 
> Perhaps it’ll turn out that the Americans are right. Maybe Britain actually is a land of magic and make-believe, in which case it shouldn’t just be students at Hogwarts who are entitled to an owl. They’ve privatised the post office, so perhaps this is Labour’s solution: owls swooping down the chimneys of local authority-owned housing, dropping eviction notices and stern letters from the Department for Work and Pensions telling people with terminal cancer that they have to get a job or be kicked out on the street.
> 
> Or maybe it’ll be more like the film _Labyrinth_, but instead of a snowy owl flapping into your bedroom and turning into David Bowie in a fright wig and very tight tights, it turns into Ed Miliband. Hold that thought in your mind for a second, and imagine Owl Miliband waggling a magic crystal ball about and telling jobless, hopeless young people that their benefits have been stolen away, far far away, to the centre of a treacherous maze, lost for ever unless they can find work or training in thirteen hours.


http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/everything-awful-vote-owls


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## J Ed (Jun 21, 2014)

She gets paid for this shit. A good (near) daily reminder of the perniciousness of the class system in this country.


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## Favelado (Jun 21, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> More faux radicalism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What. Is. That?


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## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2014)

he moves the stars for no one


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## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> What. Is. That?


Some kind of play on the twitter joke that labour will give everyone an owl if they get into power. But it's really really bad.


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## treelover (Jun 21, 2014)

> People's Assembly spokesman Clare Solomon said: "It is essential for the welfare of millions of people that we stop austerity and halt this coalition government dead in its tracks before it does lasting damage to people's lives and our public services."



I see Clare's back in the news, but at least she is doing something


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 21, 2014)




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## ViolentPanda (Jun 22, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Would I be risking legal action by suggesting that the most credible explanation for Harris' weird views on age difference in sexual relationships is that he's probably a nonce? I think it might be, which is precisely why I'm not going to make that suggestion.



It may be, or it's possible that he's so socially and visually grotesque that only the young and foolish can be tricked into having sexual relations with him.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 22, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> More faux radicalism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That article reads like one of awesome wells's posts.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2014)

I see louis mensch has a page to herself in the Sun on Sunday. Dave bought it round cos he'd read it while on the bus. It's a proper comic, almost worse than the daily edition.


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## Favelado (Jun 22, 2014)

I just read it again and saw the Kes joke. Fuck off Penny you Southern wanker.


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## weepiper (Jun 22, 2014)

Seriously, wtf. This is activism? This passes for socialism now?


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## Idris2002 (Jun 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> he moves the stars for no one


Just wait until it's time for CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 22, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I just read it again and saw the Kes joke. Fuck off Penny you Southern wanker.



Maybe she thinks Ken loach films are documentaries? Would explain quite a bit about her politics tbh


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## Idris2002 (Jun 23, 2014)




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## CNT36 (Jun 23, 2014)

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-ways-...age&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage


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## treelover (Jun 24, 2014)

> No, the media didn’t ignore your anti-austerity march – it just wasn’t that interesting
> * There’s no organised “media blackout” on reporting protest marches. More often than not, they just aren’t that much of a story.*
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ti-austerity-march-it-just-wasn-t-interesting



New man on the block, Willard Foxton(any relation to the estate agents?) doing the Spiked type contrarian bit on the left and its delusions.


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## treelover (Jun 24, 2014)

> BBC News this morning told me about the height of the grass on a Wimbledon tennis court.



a wonderful reply


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## killer b (Jun 24, 2014)

what did you think of the article? I can't say I disagreed with it. There certainly wasn't the 'blackout' all the hysterical ex-lib dems on my fb are screaming about.


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## The Pale King (Jun 24, 2014)

This fucker's usually at the Telegraph - what's he doing in the New Statesman's stable? Swap deal for Laurie Penny?


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## treelover (Jun 24, 2014)

@KB

A bit too clever, I agree the BBC are not there as a recruiting sergeant but if by any chance they had mentioned it before hand it might have gained more momentum, more numbers, more publicity on the day, then the next one would be bigger, its circular, anyway the backlash is quite significant, the Trust are going to have to respond

and of course they reported Falange and Co ad inifitum


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## treelover (Jun 24, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> This fucker's usually at the Telegraph - what's he doing in the New Statesman's stable? Swap deal for Laurie Penny?




Ah, interesting, the Guardian seems to be swinging to the right as well.


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## The Pale King (Jun 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> Ah, interesting, the Guardian seems to be swinging to the right as well.



It's a sign of the times, a sign of the times...

_(sharpening stones/walking on coals/to improve your business acumen)_


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 24, 2014)

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/06/4-reflections-on-the-anti-austerity-movement/

This is also quite good.


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## killer b (Jun 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> and of course they reported Falange and Co ad inifitum


I'm not sure what relevance this has?


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 24, 2014)

It's almost as if people expect the BBC to report on any old bollocks and not have its own interests/agenda.


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## J Ed (Jun 24, 2014)

killer b said:


> what did you think of the article? I can't say I disagreed with it. There certainly wasn't the 'blackout' all the hysterical ex-lib dems on my fb are screaming about.



I agree with you, though I do think that they should have provided a bit of coverage rather than totally ignoring the protest, but putting aside whether the BBC is being reasonable or not - isn't there some tactical value in acting as if they were being unreasonable?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 24, 2014)

killer b said:


> what did you think of the article? I can't say I disagreed with it. There certainly wasn't the 'blackout' all the hysterical ex-lib dems on my fb are screaming about.


Nah, it's rubbish. The BBC website will produce a story about the most utterly trivial rubbish imaginable - the idea that tens of thousands of people marching through London for political reasons wouldn't have had articles because it "wasn't newsworthy" is just absurd.

I was quite cynical about the whole thing when I turned up, but there was a decent number of different groups there (much broader than some other marches dominated by the big unions) and even the speeches were okay - I stayed much longer than I usually do, though usually I duck out to the pub after the second speaker anyway so that's not saying much. I wasn't expecting a lot in the news but I was expecting at least one reasonably sized piece and was quite surprised that there was just _nothing_.


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## treelover (Jun 24, 2014)

The P/A seems to be doing some things right, lets hope Rees doesn't mess it up.


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## treelover (Jun 24, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jun/24/sheffield-reporter-arrest-anti-terrorism-laws

The national mass media, Mail, Guardian, etc is now picking up on the freedom ride by pensioners in S.Yorks, and the arrests of some of its members, pensioners, this is about 30 people, yet this is getting coverage,  something unusual is happening now with the BBC, imo.


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## Rural (Jun 24, 2014)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure what relevance this has?



I believe this is relevant cos Farage only has to sneeze & it's all over the msm. Any left-wing opp to the govt is ignored. I know he's often mentioned in a "what bonkers, eccentric, insular comment has he made now?" fashion but it's still publicity. All to do with british (media?)'s preoccupation with personalities in politics, the more outlandish the better. There r no comparable personalities on the left for the media to dwell on. Maybe non-personalities (Owen Jones)


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## 8115 (Jun 24, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Nah, it's rubbish. The BBC website will produce a story about the most utterly trivial rubbish imaginable - the idea that tens of thousands of people marching through London for political reasons wouldn't have had articles because it "wasn't newsworthy" is just absurd.
> 
> I was quite cynical about the whole thing when I turned up, but there was a decent number of different groups there (much broader than some other marches dominated by the big unions) and even the speeches were okay - I stayed much longer than I usually do, though usually I duck out to the pub after the second speaker anyway so that's not saying much. I wasn't expecting a lot in the news but I was expecting at least one reasonably sized piece and was quite surprised that there was just _nothing_.


I was surprised to read about the march on here given that I read the papers, tv, radio etc and had heard nothing.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 24, 2014)

8115 said:


> I was surprised to read about the march on here given that I read the papers, tv, radio etc and had heard nothing.


Well quite, and there wasn't that much on here about it either.


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## fractionMan (Jun 24, 2014)

I didn't even know it was going to happen, let alone that it had happened.  And I only found that out from here.


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## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well quite, and there wasn't that much on here about it either.


I didn't see anything about it on here until after the event.


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## weepiper (Jun 24, 2014)

I was vaguely aware it was going to happen but discounted the possibility of going to it because it's hundreds of miles away and I have a job to be at and small children to look after. And because we've marched for things in our thousands before and fuck all changed. I expect that means I don't care.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 24, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I was vaguely aware it was going to happen but discounted the possibility of going to it because it's hundreds of miles away and I have a job to be at and small children to look after. And because we've marched for things in our thousands before and fuck all changed. I expect that means I don't care.


I didn't see a single post apart from one jokey one about it, on Urban.

Somehow I guess nobody would be accusing you of not caring as they weren't even referring to it at all. It might not have happened as far as the BBC was concerned, but it also might not have happened as far as Urban was concerned.


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## weepiper (Jun 24, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I didn't see a single post apart from one jokey one about it, on Urban.
> 
> Somehow I guess nobody would be accusing you of not caring as they weren't even referring to it at all. It might not have happened as far as the BBC was concerned, but it also might not have happened as far as Urban was concerned.



I saw a few people talking about it on Twitter in the weeks beforehand but that's a function of the sort of people I follow as much as anything. The not caring thing was a reference to Owen Jones et al who fall back on the 'yeah? But what do _you _do?' argument whenever anyone asks what this sort of event actually achieves


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## killer b (Jun 24, 2014)

there was a media blackout here too, clearly. Editor in the pay of MI5.


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## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I didn't see a single post apart from one jokey one about it, on Urban.
> 
> Somehow I guess nobody would be accusing you of not caring as they weren't even referring to it at all. It might not have happened as far as the BBC was concerned, but it also might not have happened as far as Urban was concerned.


Which is why the thread about the event has an aura of 'What's you point, caller?' about it, in my opinion.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 25, 2014)

Christ, Penny writes a long piece about trans rights and manges to insert herself into the piece (a common theme):

"Explaining why this is so significant is hard for me, because I’m about as close as you can get to the trans rights movement without being trans yourself."

http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2014/06/laurie-penny-what-transgender-tipping-point-really-means


----------



## Balbi (Jun 25, 2014)

Fucking hell, I've trans friends who'd blow a fuse at that


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 25, 2014)

bit patronising saying statistics etc are a "man" thing. almost as if women are irrational and can't think


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


>


 calm down dear.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 25, 2014)

On a semi-related note, isn't it interesting how there's been almost total silence from the NS on the Al Jazeera journalism trial. No editorials, no protests, no real condemnation.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 25, 2014)

LOL


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2014)

"Second prize, two evenings with Laurie Penny".


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2014)

£15 lol. 

Potentially an interesting topic with a bit of squinting. Why _are_ private school oxbridgers so afraid of working class women.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2014)

Didn't Mary Beard get a lot of bullshit from that AA Gill wanker?


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 25, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "Second prize, two evenings with Laurie Penny".



I can supply a review of this in advance:

'I knew it wasn't going well at the interval, when instead of ice creams they came round with a tray of cyanide capsules.'


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Didn't Mary Beard get a lot of bullshit from that AA Gill wanker?


Yep, and apparently Beard responded with this nonsense.


> "Possibly this is where we reach the heart of AA Gill's problem: maybe it's precisely because he did not go to university that he never quite learned the rigour of intellectual argument and he thinks that he can pass off insults as wit.



That reminds me of this 1985 piece on Dermot Bolger, a writer who went to my school.  



> Born in Finglas in the bedroom that he sleeps in to this day, 26-year-old Bolger made a conscious decision not to go to university. “I saw no point in it. I felt it would alienate me from the experience I wanted to write about – namely, the world I grew up in.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2014)

Bolger's late 80s novel, The Journey Home was a searing piece of social realism about the Irish crisis of that decade. His novel from a few years back about the Goold-Verschoyle family - a real big house family who produced a couple of upper-class Stalinists in the 1930s - wasn't worth finishing, I thought.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> £15 lol.
> 
> Potentially an interesting topic with a bit of squinting. Why _are_ private school oxbridgers so afraid of working class women.
> 
> View attachment 56453


Astonishing - three women. All private school. All Oxbridge. All examples of what outspoken women should be. No swinging maces or that here. All white panel again. And yet again, my mum's not on there.


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> His novel from a few years back about the Goold-Verschoyle family - a real big house family who produced a couple of upper-class Stalinists in the 1930s - wasn't worth finishing, I thought.





Spoiler: you can stfu and all


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 25, 2014)

Haha, she tweets a variant of this every time she gets called out.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Haha, she tweets a variant of this every time she gets called out.




Honestly this is just so repetitive, at this point it's just obvious (as she puts it) "ethical personal brand" building/consolidation.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 25, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Fucking hell, I've trans friends who'd blow a fuse at that



some are, Danaerys lol


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2014)

Helen Lewis  
@helenlewis  


My advice for writers now boils down to: a) don't strip-mine your life for anecdotes; b) don't end up writing for your 20 worst critics.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 25, 2014)

killer b said:


> Helen Lewis
> @helenlewis
> 
> 
> My advice for writers now boils down to: a) don't strip-mine your life for anecdotes; b) don't end up writing for your 20 worst critics.



My advice for writers is 1) go to private school 2) go to Oxbridge 3) write whatever inane shit you want 4) exploit the unpaid labour of people further down the pyramid scheme 5) ££££££££££


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2014)

that's in next weeks seminar.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 25, 2014)

It's funny, I think deep down she means well on one level, but constantly mucks up, gets lost in her vacuousness and sense of self-importance. Teenage confessional writing meets shoddy activism. But cynically, I think a lot of what she writes is a vehicle for brand building. The funniest thing is now Penny would fail her own editor's advice about strip-mining for anecdotes.

She can write about race, trans issues or other topics, but I don't think her range as a writer can really expand beyond her own experiences meshed with dubious sources (why does she rarely link to statistics?) She certainly does not deserve a lot of the gross online misogynistic abuse but her inability to listen to the groups she writes about is breathtaking. 

You could perhaps understand if she was 18 and a little 'wet behind the ears' but she's closer to thirty now - and this sort of behaviour is a long-running problem.

If she learnt to listen to people who mean well in critique and she genuinely made efforts to improve as a writer, she would be on the way onto something more helpful. I hold no malice towards her. Far from it, but her inability to see beyond her own privileged bubble is staggering. It's tiresome to read her get so defensive when faced with genuine and constructive feedback and criticism.

But does she have the ability to improve? I'm not sure, but happy to be proved wrong.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Astonishing - three women. All private school. All Oxbridge. All examples of what outspoken women should be. No swinging maces or that here. All white panel again. And yet again, my mum's not on there.


Or mine. She was born in Oxford so they could have done the whole Gown and Town thing too.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It's funny, I think deep down she means well on one level, but constantly mucks up, gets lost in her vacuousness and sense of self-importance. Teenage confessional writing meets shoddy activism. But cynically, I think a lot of what she writes is a vehicle for brand building. The funniest thing is now Penny would fail her own editor's advice about strip-mining for anecdotes.
> 
> She can write about race, trans issues or other topics, but I don't think her range as a writer can really expand beyond her own experiences meshed with dubious sources (why does she rarely link to statistics?) She certainly does not deserve a lot of the gross online misogynistic abuse but her inability to listen to the groups she writes about is breathtaking.
> 
> ...


I think you've neatly summarised her behaviour. It's the failure to listen that I really think lets her down the most. That said, failure to listen isn't a crime, and it certainly doesn't warrant the rape threats and other delights she is subjected to with depressing regularity.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jun 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think you've neatly summarised her behaviour. It's the failure to listen that I really think lets her down the most. That said, failure to listen isn't a crime, and it certainly doesn't warrant the rape threats and other delights she is subjected to with depressing regularity.



Her failure to listen isn't what brings on the horrific abuse and rape threats she gets though. IMO the trumpets who launch abuse at Penny don't do so coz of her failings as a commentator, they do it coz she's a woman with a voice - And they'd still do it (possibly even moreso) if she was a woman with a voice who actually knew what she was talking about. Still though, you're right, she certainly doesn't deserve rape threats and such.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 25, 2014)

I hope that didn't come across as a defence of rape threatening scumbags, there can be no defence for that sort of online abuse for anyone.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jun 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I hope that didn't come across as a defence of rape threatening scumbags, there can be no defence for that sort of online abuse for anyone.



It didn't.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I hope that didn't come across as a defence of rape threatening scumbags, there can be no defence for that sort of online abuse for anyone.


No, not at all.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "Second prize, two evenings with Laurie Penny".


After seeing the post above yours, I was just about to post exactly that, and yelped in amusement/exasperation as I scrolled down (to the confusion of the toddler sat next to me)


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 26, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> After seeing the post above yours, I was just about to post exactly that, and yelped in amusement/exasperation as I scrolled down (to the confusion of the toddler sat next to me)



Great minds think alike.



And fools seldom differ.


----------



## rekil (Jun 26, 2014)

Bragg's amazing Glasto "Recharge Your Activism" tshirt reminds me that we could do with a newish PD one.



> Top up your activism with this fine T that plugs into any car lighter or household plug socket (please note, this T doesn’t do either of those things) and lights up the faces of those around you in the shared glow of seeing society re-organised so that that everyone has access to the means by which to reach their full potential.



Billy's variation on the old what do YOU do gag goes a bit wrong.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Great minds think alike.
> 
> 
> 
> And fools seldom differ.


I've got mine; have you got yours?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> Bragg's amazing Glasto "Recharge Your Activism" tshirt reminds me that we could do with a newish PD one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So Millionaire Billy considers tweeting to be ‘working’?


----------



## rekil (Jun 26, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> So Millionaire Billy considers tweeting to be ‘working’?


Selling #activism tshirts which were probably designed by someone else and made god knows where is a little bit working.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 26, 2014)

copliker said:


> Spoiler: you can stfu and all
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 56455





Spoiler: :-)


----------



## Rural (Jun 26, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think you've neatly summarised her behaviour. It's the failure to listen that I really think lets her down the most. That said, failure to listen isn't a crime, and it certainly doesn't warrant the rape threats and other delights she is subjected to with depressing regularity.


I think it's failure to listen combined with *I'm the closest thing u can get to trans/black/sex worker/etc, without actually being any one of these things. Because friends.*

Her IRL friends are very much like her from what I've seen. They are the ones who back her up on twitter when the *intersectional world* is offering a critique of her work. They (her friends) usually say things like "stop picking on Laurie", "she's really nice", "this is making her upset". U know the sort of thing. Not aimed at any of the actual points, just doing their best as they see it to defend a pal.


----------



## flypanam (Jun 27, 2014)

Laurie on channel 4 news talking about Brookes and News Int trial.


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 27, 2014)

interrupting and then squeaking 'LET ME FINISH'


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2014)

flypanam said:


> Laurie on channel 4 news talking about Brookes and News Int trial.



Why?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2014)

chilango said:


> Why?


Deeds, not words. 

Fewer _business lunches_, more _throwing punches_.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 27, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> interrupting and then squeaking 'LET ME FINISH'



The kind of lack of self-awareness you can only buy with a private education


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2014)

I just saw the piece on +1. I'm really at a loss as to what it added to my understanding, knowledge or interest in the matter.

That's not Laurie's fault though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Deeds, not words.
> 
> Fewer _business lunches_, more _throwing punches_.



Or, in Laurie's case, "fewer _revo lunches_, more _butt munches_".


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2014)

> *Confessions of a socialist entrepreneur*
> Tony Benn taught me that it's possible to make a profit as well as having principles
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...list-entrepreneur-tony-benn-profit-principles


----------



## J Ed (Jun 28, 2014)

It's the whole 'choices' thing that gets me here, as if the difference between the rest of us and nice good people like Tony Benn and this Olivia Knight is that they choose to work for nice ethical employers (LOL @ that in regards to the Graunid, Eurostar and Co-Op) whereas the dumb proles choose to work for Tesco or whatever because they are ignorant. The message seems to be that we can all live good ethical lives under free market capitalism if only we make the right choices, there is a lot of neoliberal ideology in this article.

IMO the most salient point on there is in the comments section 



> Getting free publicity for your business in the Guardian shows you are good at marketing


----------



## chilango (Jun 28, 2014)

I don't have a problem with individuals making a living, even getting rich doing so.

I do have a problem with them trying to make out that this is consistent with socialism/activism or whatever.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2014)

What have you learnt from me Olivia? From my mum?

Note the age and the _found:
_



			
				little olivia said:
			
		

> that I'd found my first proper job at 21


----------



## rekil (Jun 28, 2014)

August 4th would be fucking yesss! #ThanksTripleEntente or something


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2014)

I don't think Olivia is from a wealthy background though, the Guardian now has a few who aren't.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 29, 2014)

WTF is Penny on about? I was never taught this:



> Men have largely grown up being told that if they do all the things men are meant to do and don’t get in too much trouble, they will be rewarded with a hot woman. If they are good guys, nice guys who mean well – and who isn’t a nice guy who means well? – they will eventually find the girl or girls of their dreams who will bear and raise their children and subtly overhaul their personal grooming routine, not in a gay way, just so they look a bit more grown-up and sexy.


http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/2014/06/why-can-t-we-fancy-jeremy-meeks-fine-felon


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> I don't think Olivia is from a wealthy background though, the Guardian now has a few who aren't.


What makes you say that about Olivia knight?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What makes you say that about Olivia knight?



Isn't her older sister a columnist and sometime writer of "chick-lit"?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 56602
> 
> August 4th would be fucking yesss! #ThanksTripleEntente or something



i don't even understand that tweet.  is she another one who claims Gavrilo Princip as a socialist hero because he killed a prince?


----------



## rekil (Jun 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i don't even understand that tweet.  is she another one who claims Gavrilo Princip as a socialist hero because he killed a prince?


Evidently, my crap gags transcend the puny cognitive abilities of this timeline's sheeple.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Evidently, my crap gags transcend the puny cognitive abilities of this timeline's sheeple.



i'm very hungover and i can't even work out if i'm being insulted here, and if so, is it friendly or unfriendly.

I think i should get off the internet and come back when i have recovered from yesterday's cider festival


----------



## rekil (Jun 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm very hungover and i can't even work out if i'm being insulted here, and if so, is it friendly or unfriendly.
> 
> I think i should get off the internet and come back when i have recovered from yesterday's cider festival


hangover #solidarity tbf


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 29, 2014)

Twitter leftists called out Molly Crabapple for this 2009 show, where, "Our artists documented these beautiful savages using only the primitive sketch pads and newspapers found in the wild." http://www.drsketchy.com/site/comments/le_nouvelle_savage#sthash.0Sojolbv.dpuf

Shit went down in this thread, Crabapple naturally defensive: 

Think a lot are pissed at her Syria piece, tbh: http://www.vice.com/read/caught-between-isis-and-assad


----------



## rekil (Jun 29, 2014)

Well researched article about Ireland and its political landscape in Vice. Wake up sheeple! Riot for journos!



> Our reaction to the economy's collapse reveals deep flaws in the Irish psyche. Firstly, there have been no protests of note, nor riots. The political awareness of what happened and what is continuing to happen is virtually zero. People have lost their jobs, houses and friends and family members to emigration, every budget in our social services is being slashed to ribbons, and future generations are being buried beneath mountains of debt from which they'll never escape. But the prescription here seems to be inaction, moaning about expenses and some vague tabloid waffle, blaming the Polish for fiddling the dole when most of them have long since gone home.


This one confirms that Mr.Nolan is a massive bell end.


> In Ireland I had dreams of fulfilling the writer's myth. Drinking, drugging; I wanted to live in the day and unload it onto the page at night. Like Miller, like Kerouac. The only problem – besides confusing living with drinking and drugging – was that I didn't have the cash to do it. I existed in a cage, forever in doubt as to what this kind of life could bring me. Now, though, I can afford all the drink and drugs I want, except – between teaching and the book – I have no time to do them.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jul 1, 2014)

'Do something that I never risk so I have something to write about' is a classic.


----------



## Rural (Jul 1, 2014)

Damarr said:


> 'Do something that I never risk so I have something to write about' is a classic.


Oh that is LP all over.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Well researched article about Ireland and its political landscape in Vice. Wake up sheeple! Riot for journos!
> 
> 
> This one confirms that Mr.Nolan is a massive bell end.



Wanker. Half the fucking country boycotted the household tax and there were massive demonstrations. It took the revenue terrorising people to force through the property tax, and the combined powers of the whole trade union bureaucracy to demoralise people out of protesting. But for this clown, Irish people were just passively moaning about immigrants. No hint that demoralisation is created rather than some inherent sheep like flaw.

By the way, in the elections a couple of months ago, anti-immigrant parties and candidates got a few hundred votes. Meanwhile the combined Provo and Trot vote in Dublin was heading towards 40%.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 1, 2014)

This seems the most appropriate thread for this outbreak of peurile nonsense:







A sphinx made of sugar, that 'ironically' uses old racist representations of the 'mammy'. This is an actual exhibition you can visit in Brooklyn, apparently.

http://indypendent.org/2014/06/30/why-i-yelled-kara-walker-exhibit



> “You are recreating the very racism this art is supposed to critique,” I yelled. The visitors lowered their cameras. Just seconds ago, they had been aiming their lenses at the sculpture of a 40-foot tall, nude black female sphinx. Many posed under its ass; some laughed and pointed at its vulva. As I watched their joking, my thoughts spun and I walked into the crowd, turned to face them and began yelling. - See more at: http://indypendent.org/2014/06/30/why-i-yelled-kara-walker-exhibit#sthash.6n5zVu0d.dpuf


----------



## Rural (Jul 1, 2014)

http://tristanburke.tumblr.com/

not sure if anyone has seen this but seems informative as to lp & veracity/lack of.  Also mentions her unique role in activism,  comparing her to an uc cop. I don't think she is but her access to info in these circles is almost unprecedented for a journo.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> http://tristanburke.tumblr.com/
> 
> not sure if anyone has seen this but seems informative as to lp & veracity/lack of.  Also mentions her unique role in activism,  comparing her to an uc cop. I don't think she is but her access to info in these circles is almost unprecedented for a journo.



Not seen it before, 2 years on and dead on - really good piece.


----------



## Rural (Jul 1, 2014)

I hadn't seen it til Phil greaves posted it on Twitter a couple of days ago (@philgreaves01) but was aware of many incidents of ppl (some of whom I know personally & trust) accusing her of lying. I think there was one occupy meeting where she wrote a bunch of quotes attributable to a woman,  who unfortunately for lp, saw her article & publicly denounced her for fabrication. Again it was lp romanticising,  playing up to stereotypes that ppl have of students/activists.  She seems to want to live her life like she's the leading character in a terrible novel :/


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 1, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This seems the most appropriate thread for this outbreak of peurile nonsense:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What aspect did you find puerile?


----------



## Rural (Jul 1, 2014)

http://zetkin.net/journalism-subjectivity-movement/

This is the link to the occupy meeting I was talking about, where lp is accused of making stuff up. It appears she was the one who alerted the woman she lied about to the fact that she had written about her. Prob best not to lie about ur comrades if then going to point them towards ur article.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 2, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What aspect did you find puerile?



Having had a chance to sleep on it, I have revised my opinion. . . partly. What didn't occur to me initially is that the use of the Sphinx is a nod to Afrocentric notions common in the African-American community, and that the overall idea is sound enough. If art is "play with form" then it's not a bad idea to take the commodities produced on the slave plantation and use them to make representations of the people who actually did the work on those plantations.

So yeah, it wasn't a bad idea in principle, but. . .

The trouble is that it was so avant-garde that the wankers described in that piece (like the gobshites making gang signs in front some of the exhibits) were almost inevitably going to take the piss. Subtlety is really not a good idea if you want your political art to effectively make a political point.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 2, 2014)

Rural said:


> http://tristanburke.tumblr.com/
> 
> not sure if anyone has seen this but seems informative as to lp & veracity/lack of.  Also mentions her unique role in activism,  comparing her to an uc cop. I don't think she is but her access to info in these circles is almost unprecedented for a journo.



A curious political development in which graduates of elite universities conduct textual analyses of the fictional character Laurie Penny.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 2, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> A curious political development in which graduates of elite universities conduct textual analyses of the fictional character Laurie Penny.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 2, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It's tiresome to read her get so defensive when faced with genuine and constructive feedback and criticism.



On the other hand, as LP says herself, she's the only media commentator who'd bother to respond to a forum like this one.

100% of similarly-placed hacks would say (or at least think): "what an unbelievable bunch of bitter, envious losers.  Fuck them and the horse they rode in on."

But she didn't.  She actually felt the force of the critique that's being leveled at her here.  Which is admittedly a cogent and important critique--but she deserves credit for acknowledging that fact.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> On the other hand, as LP says herself, she's the only media commentator who'd bother to respond to a forum like this one.
> 
> 100% of similarly-placed hacks would say (or at least think): "what an unbelievable bunch of bitter, envious losers.  Fuck them and the horse they rode in on."
> 
> But she didn't.  She actually felt the force of the critique that's being leveled at her here.  Which is admittedly a cogent and important critique--but she deserves credit for acknowledging that fact.



I don't think she really acknowledged it though.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 2, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I don't think she really acknowledged it though.


 
i've been posting here for over a decade now and i don't think i've ever really acknowledged it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 2, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i've been posting here for over a decade now and i don't think i've ever really acknowledged it.



If we don't make eye contact, eventually it will go away.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 2, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I don't think she really acknowledged it though.



Sure she did.  She even put a bit in the Introduction to her book that was clearly a response to this thread--admitting how lucky and privileged she's been, how she really has no right to speak for the less fortunate etc.

Doesn't make the criticisms of her any less valid.  Indeed they're _obviously _valid, to the point where she herself can't help but admit it.  

But my point is that every other hack of similar standing would have ignored us completely.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 2, 2014)

(((deborah orr)))




phildwyer said:


> But my point is that every other hack of similar standing would have ignored us completely.


 
have you been inside phil?  this board has been noticably less contrarian recently so i assume you've been away.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 2, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> have you been inside phil?



Worse than that.  I've been in Wales.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 2, 2014)

oh dear.  i noticed that the welsh were noticeably more irritated recently.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 2, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> have you been inside phil?



I'm not that much of a swinger.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 2, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> oh dear.  i noticed that the welsh were noticeably more irritated recently.


 
And here's us thinking it was because of the World Cup.


----------



## Rural (Jul 2, 2014)

dwyer said:


> Sure she did.  She even put a bit in the Introduction to her book that was clearly a response to this thread--admitting how lucky and privileged she's been, how she really has no right to speak for the less fortunate etc.
> 
> Doesn't make the criticisms of her any less valid.  Indeed they're _obviously _valid, to the point where she herself can't help but admit it.
> 
> But my point is that every other hack of similar standing would have ignored us completely.



If she cant help admit it why can't she learn from it. She had an expensive education, she should b able to learn.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 2, 2014)

Rural said:


> If she cant help admit it why can't she learn from it. She had an expensive education, she should b able to learn.



What exactly do you want her to do?

Give up her job in favor of a more deserving candidate?  

Start writing a different kind of column?

Nobody would do the first, and she can't do the second.  She is what she is.  Nor is it a particularly bad thing to be.  We all wish that a different kind of voice appeared in the media, but that's up to us, not her.


----------



## Rural (Jul 2, 2014)

I said b4 the best I could say to her is "I hope u have a successful career". I just don't think her form of activism is helpful. In fact I think it has a negative effect, certainly when she is proved to be a liar. Imo she should b a journalist, cover whatever she wants (or is allowed by her bosses) but stop acting like the revolutionary voice of a generation. She's not an activist so stop pretending for her articles. Also I'd like her to actually listen when sheis, often politely, criticised for not listening to certain groups, rather than constantly say she's being bullied & don't we all know she checks her priv all the time.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 2, 2014)

Rural said:


> http://tristanburke.tumblr.com/
> 
> not sure if anyone has seen this but seems informative as to lp & veracity/lack of.  Also mentions her unique role in activism,  comparing her to an uc cop. I don't think she is but her access to info in these circles is almost unprecedented for a journo.



Very interesting, thanks for sharing, not seen before. Although, I always thought the Gosling story was a total fantasy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 6, 2014)

http://hosb.org.uk/37-things-need-know-modern-britain-thing-7-generation-y-new-quarter-life-crisis/

Hosted by Miranda Sawyer*, with Owen Jones*, Laurie Penny* and Celeste Houlker**

Britain’s 18-25 olds appear to be both a lost generation paying for the mistakes of their elders, and self-pitying malcontents with unrealistic expectations. Generation Y and the New Quarter Life Crisis ask which of these descriptions is right?
There is no doubt that that Generation Y faces serious challenges. Wages are low, and living costs spiralling; welfare state support has been reduced, and the internship treadmill can last for years. But, as Lena Dunham’s Girls records, they also have boom-period aspirations – home ownership, rich experiences, identities defined by exciting and fulfilling careers. Should they?
At a time when thousands of graduates are unable to move from family homes, and one in ten seek to work overseas, this debate asks if the quarter-life crisis is real, and considers what it could mean for the nation’s future
The debate is hosted by The Observer columnist Miranda Sawyer, with panellists Owen Jones (columnist for The Guardian, New Statesman and author of Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class,), Celeste Houlker, editor of Live! Magazine. Together they will examine whether Generation Y is a betrayed and exploited generation, or an over-privileged group that refuses to adjust to reality.

@HoStBarnabas**** @Bug_London #generationY

Tickets available here 

Guests will be invited to stay and enjoy tunes played out by special guest DJ Tom Findlay***, Groove Armada

---------------------------------------------

*Oxford
** does anyone know?  it's almost impossible to find out where she went to school. 
***Cambridge, shill for Bacardi.
****Private Members Club Charity.  I have no idea either.

---------------------------------------------
"Together they will examine whether Generation Y is a betrayed and exploited generation, or an over-privileged group that refuses to adjust to reality"

it's either/or, isn;t it.  there couldn't be a class analysis needed on this question, could there?


----------



## emanymton (Jul 6, 2014)

What about 18-25 year olds who never went to University?


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## el-ahrairah (Jul 6, 2014)

i don't think anyone has even considered them.  in the same way that none of this branch of the commentariat think that people over 35 are real*, they can't consider the existence of anyone who didn't go to university as anything other than an abstract concept.

*except as some imagined enemy, the face of The Man, the dull, vanilla, heterosexual monogamous missionary position normal haircut white privilege jackboots on the neck of youth.


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## Bakunin (Jul 6, 2014)

A complete lack of self-awareness or more self-justifying bullshit?. You decide:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...w-write-about-personal-without-becoming-story


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## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> A complete lack of self-awareness or more self-justifying bullshit?. You decide:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...w-write-about-personal-without-becoming-story


Bland. It says nothing in a great many words.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 6, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> A complete lack of self-awareness or more self-justifying bullshit?. You decide:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...w-write-about-personal-without-becoming-story



Hahahahahahaha



> Now that I’m lucky enough to be able to pick and choose



So before you were coerced into writing obsessively about yourself and now it's by choice.

Hahahahaha

Also she manages to cite paedophile Allen Ginsberg as an inspiration.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Hahahahahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I wouldn't be citing a paedo as an inspiration if I were a writer. That won't end well.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 6, 2014)

its possible she didn't know and didn't check tbf. Although its usually the done thing to make a cursory glance at the character of who you are quoting lest you end up passing on the tainted words of a nonce


----------



## Favelado (Jul 6, 2014)

Rural said:


> I said b4 the best I could say to her is "I hope u have a successful career". I just don't think her form of activism is helpful. In fact I think it has a negative effect, certainly when she is proved to be a liar. Imo she should b a journalist, cover whatever she wants (or is allowed by her bosses) but stop acting like the revolutionary voice of a generation. She's not an activist so stop pretending for her articles. Also I'd like her to actually listen when sheis, often politely, criticised for not listening to certain groups, rather than constantly say she's being bullied & don't we all know she checks her priv all the time.



In ten years' time I think it's quite likely that Laurie will still be a journalist of the self-appointed culture commentator type, with every last vestige of politics long consigned to the scrapheap.

Also, loaded and utterly establishment.


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## chilango (Jul 6, 2014)

How is any of this Generation Y quarter life crisis stuff any different from the Generation X mid 20s crisis stuff written about by Coupland a quarter of a fucking century ago?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its possible she didn't know and didn't check tbf. Although its usually the done thing to make a cursory glance at the character of who you are quoting lest you end up passing on the tainted words of a nonce


His wiki page makes reference to his membership of NAMBLA, so even if that was the only thing she looked at it would have given it away.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 6, 2014)

theres a way of doing writing where you have a quote you like and work backwards from there, rather than having an idea or theme, developing it and THEN finding nice quotes to garnish (and check who you are quoting)

I didn't go to oxford though so my opinion on how to write is presumably so much shit to these brilliant talkers-for-us


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## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2014)

chilango said:


> How is any of this Generation Y quarter life crisis stuff any different from the Generation X mid 20s crisis stuff written about by Coupland a quarter of a fucking century ago?


it's been written more recently


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## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> theres a way of doing writing where you have a quote you like and work backwards from there


you mean a sort of inductive method

or something


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## J Ed (Jul 6, 2014)

It's a good thing that Laurie Penny is differentiating herself from the way in which she was coercively typecast before...

Oh wait



> Hosted by Miranda Sawyer, with Owen Jones, Laurie Penny and Celeste Houlker
> 
> Britain’s 18-25 olds appear to be both a lost generation paying for the mistakes of their elders, and self-pitying malcontents with unrealistic expectations. Generation Y and the New Quarter Life Crisis ask which of these descriptions is right?
> There is no doubt that that Generation Y faces serious challenges. Wages are low, and living costs spiralling; welfare state support has been reduced, and the internship treadmill can last for years. But, as Lena Dunham’s Girls records, they also have boom-period aspirations – home ownership, rich experiences, identities defined by exciting and fulfilling careers. Should they?
> ...



Eleven quid a ticket too


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## Bakunin (Jul 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It's a good thing that Laurie Penny is differentiating herself from the way in which she was coercively typecast before...
> 
> Oh wait
> 
> ...



Monetising her bullshit.


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## el-ahrairah (Jul 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its possible she didn't know and didn't check tbf. Although its usually the done thing to make a cursory glance at the character of who you are quoting lest you end up passing on the tainted words of a nonce



everyone knows these days surely?


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## el-ahrairah (Jul 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It's a good thing that Laurie Penny is differentiating herself from the way in which she was coercively typecast before...
> 
> Oh wait
> 
> ...




good spot


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## Rural (Jul 6, 2014)

Favelado said:


> In ten years' time I think it's quite likely that Laurie will still be a journalist of the self-appointed culture commentator type, with every last vestige of politics long consigned to the scrapheap.
> 
> Also, loaded and utterly establishment.



Sort of like a queer Katie Hopkins?


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## weepiper (Jul 7, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://hosb.org.uk/37-things-need-know-modern-britain-thing-7-generation-y-new-quarter-life-crisis/
> Wages are low, and living costs spiralling; welfare state support has been reduced, and the internship treadmill can last for years.



The 'internship treadmill' is only open to you in the first place if your parents are paying you an allowance. The rest of us are stuck with the low wages forever. They've got a fat salary at the end of it.


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## seventh bullet (Jul 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> The 'internship treadmill' is only open to you in the first place if your parents are paying you an allowance. The rest of us are stuck with the low wages forever. They've got a fat salary at the end of it.



It's pretty indicative of what planet they are living on, and it isn't ours.  They like to speak for us, though, don't they.


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## chilango (Jul 7, 2014)

I think I'd quite like to be given a chance to get on the "internship treadmill".


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## Dogsauce (Jul 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> The 'internship treadmill' is only open to you in the first place if your parents are paying you an allowance. The rest of us are stuck with the low wages forever. They've got a fat salary at the end of it.



Exactly.  And by participating in the 'internship treadmill' (even if protesting the fact) they're ensuring it survives as a means of selecting the voices we get to hear louder than any others.  I'd imagine most people have no fucking idea what it actually is.

It's like people who moan about the high cost of gig/festival tickets they've bought without realising they're the fucking problem.  High prices exist because people pay them without considering who they're pricing out with such an endorsement.


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## Theisticle (Jul 7, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> A complete lack of self-awareness or more self-justifying bullshit?. You decide:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...w-write-about-personal-without-becoming-story



A hand-wringing press release for her new book. This should be labelled as such.


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## Rural (Jul 7, 2014)

TE="Theisticle, post: 13254199, member: 60429"]A hand-wringing press release for her new book. This should be labelled as such.[/QUOTE]
Shes not self aware, tho she should b by now. It's not like there's a lack of ppl *helping* her reach self-awareness


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## Limerick Red (Jul 7, 2014)

chilango said:


> I think I'd quite like to be given a chance to get on the "internship treadmill".


It's called workfare for regular punters!


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## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2014)

chilango said:


> I think I'd quite like to be given a chance to get on the "internship treadmill".


i don't think you would, unless you've a private source of income


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## kavenism (Jul 7, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> A hand-wringing press release for her new book. This should be labelled as such.



Two hundred and eighty-eight fucking pages according to the Amazon listing. I'd sooner take a bullet in the groin than review this one.


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## chilango (Jul 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think you would, unless you've a private source of income



I think it's the class prequesites involved that I actually fancy...


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## Idris2002 (Jul 7, 2014)

Laurie on Magaluf, tries to integrate a class angle into here analysis:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/07/gin-lane-magaluf-press-shame-women?CMP=twt_gu


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## kavenism (Jul 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Laurie on Magaluf, tries to integrate a class angle into here analysis:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/07/gin-lane-magaluf-press-shame-women?CMP=twt_gu



IMO this Magaluf reaction is like taking a tour of hell and expressing surprise at all the horror one finds. Isn't this sort of thing what these places exist for?


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## Idris2002 (Jul 7, 2014)

kavenism said:


> IMO this Magaluf reaction is like taking a tour of hell and expressing surprise at all the horror one finds. Isn't this sort of thing what these places exist for?



Well we square middle aged people might not know what they're like - I wouldn't have known if I hadn't chanced upon a documentary about Ayia Napa or whatever that place is called one night.


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Laurie on Magaluf, tries to integrate a class angle into here analysis:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/07/gin-lane-magaluf-press-shame-women?CMP=twt_gu


I couldn't even finish that. Is it me or has her writing got even worse recently?


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## Favelado (Jul 7, 2014)

kavenism said:


> IMO this Magaluf reaction is like taking a tour of hell and expressing surprise at all the horror one finds. Isn't this sort of thing what these places exist for?



Although this is a notch up from what I've ever seen at home, this is very similar to Saturday nights out in tourist pubs in Blackpool. You can find free drinks offers for girls prepared to have a bucket of water thrown over their chests in seaside resorts in Britain. Is Laurie from Brighton? Maybe the Soho-on-Sea aspect of the town has stopped it happening there.


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## Rural (Jul 7, 2014)

[QUOTE Equationgirl, post: 13254738, member: 17853"]I couldn't even finish that. Is it me or has her writing got even worse recently?[/QUOTE]

Lol thats so funny, I couldn't finish it either. Think I gave up just b4 half way point


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## Bakunin (Jul 7, 2014)

Rural said:


> [QUOTE Equationgirl, post: 13254738, member: 17853"]I couldn't even finish that. Is it me or has her writing got even worse recently?



Lol thats so funny, I couldn't finish it either. Think I gave up just b4 half way point[/QUOTE]

At its worst, trying to finish one of her articles is rather like entering the Le Mans 24 Hours in a pedal car, yes.


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2014)

Yeah, just before half way for me 

LOL at all of us not managing to finish it.


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## el-ahrairah (Jul 7, 2014)

i'm not going to read that because life is too short, but isn't a class analysis a good thing?


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## seventh bullet (Jul 7, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Although this is a notch up from what I've ever seen at home, this is very similar to Saturday nights out in tourist pubs in Blackpool. You can find free drinks offers for girls prepared to have a *bucket of water thrown over their chests* in seaside resorts in Britain. Is Laurie from Brighton? Maybe the Soho-on-Sea aspect of the town has stopped it happening there.



She has mates who do it, 'ironically.'


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## weepiper (Jul 7, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> She has mates who do it, 'ironically.'



Rich girls monetize their hotness. Working class women just suck cocks for a holiday.


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## seventh bullet (Jul 7, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm not going to read that because life is too short, but isn't a class analysis a good thing?



I agree, but then, what the fuck does she know about the working class?


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## Rural (Jul 7, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm not going to read that because life is too short, but isn't a class analysis a good thing?



"Laurie tries 2 integrate a class angle" is pretty far removed from any actual, relevant class analysis.


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## el-ahrairah (Jul 8, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I agree, but then, what the fuck does she know about the working class?


 
she went into the KFC in brixton on thatcher party day?

it would be nice if she discovered a proper class analysis.  we'll see.


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## Bakunin (Jul 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> she went into the KFC in brixton on thatcher party day?
> 
> it would be nice if she discovered a proper class analysis.  we'll see.


 
I doubt she'd recognise a decent class analysis if it stripped naked in front of her, covered itself in custard and started dancing the Watusi.

Still, hope might for once triumph over experience.


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## Rural (Jul 8, 2014)

Just noticed the photo that accompanied the guard article shows a reflection of a man wearing a hi-vis jacket, presumably having just bought a copy of the sun, either to confirm his prejudices against *Magaluf Woman* or possibly to reminisce on similar holidays he's taken himself. When he's not in rainy england, being reflected in a tabloid display of course. Think that's the class stereotype. I mean analysis.


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## Limerick Red (Jul 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> she went into the KFC in brixton on thatcher party day?
> 
> it would be nice if she discovered a proper class analysis.  we'll see.


KFC is only for payday, it's Sams chicken for the rest of the month, if my scumbag meat eating colleagues are ought to go by!


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Laurie on Magaluf, tries to integrate a class angle into here analysis:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/07/gin-lane-magaluf-press-shame-women?CMP=twt_gu



Her class angle has no angle.  There's no analysis as to *why* working class women are treated in such a way (because they're less able to defend themselves due to lack of social capital, for a start), just an admission that the media are hypocrites.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm not going to read that because life is too short, but isn't a class analysis a good thing?



It would be, if she'd attempted a class analysis.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I agree, but then, what the fuck does she know about the working class?



Some of her best friends are probably working class/black/lesbian/add significator as applicable to story.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Rich girls monetize their hotness. Working class women just suck cocks for a holiday.



Ah, the difference between "call girl" and "prostitute", i.e. one of social position, perception and capital, rather than anything meaningful or relevant.


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## Idris2002 (Jul 8, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Her class angle has no angle.  There's no analysis as to *why* working class women are treated in such a way (because they're less able to defend themselves due to lack of social capital, for a start), just an admission that the media are hypocrites.



Hey I said she tried, I didn't say she succeeded.


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2014)

You can't have a class analysis from a position that is in such thrall to bastardised privilege theory. You can have a class angle - i,.e that one of the vast array of underprivileged groups is being targeted etc due to their class. But that's it. It's why Jones book on class wasn't class analysis.


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, the difference between "call girl" and "prostitute", i.e. one of social position, perception and capital, rather than anything meaningful or relevant.


Or burlesque vs stripping. A differentiation that penny has been rather keen to get in on the wrong end of in the past.


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## Rural (Jul 8, 2014)

Paying lip-service by mentioning the word class doesn't equal a class analysis.  This is one thing that annoys me about all lp ' s writing.  Just writing a buzzword with no attempt to understand its depths or implications.  So she can pat herself on the back & say "but I tried, I can't understand why they (pick any group she tourists among) aren't happy with me!" Then there will follow a list of mc media types throwing sympathy her way. The victims of her tourism will get painted as bullies... This cycle just goes on & on.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Or burlesque vs stripping. A differentiation that penny has been rather keen to get in on the wrong end of in the past.



Over and over again, as I recall.
She also seems to differentiate between "porn as art" and "porn" _per se_.  She'd probably be fine with one of Jeff Koons' pieces of sculpture of him sodomising his wife, but not okay with so-called "gonzo porn" of a w/c bloke and their partner doing the same.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 9, 2014)

Guardian review of Penny's new book:



> Unspeakable Things is billed as an account of love and sex in a time of austerity, an attempt to bring together two of Penny's familiar themes: gender politics and a post-crash politics of protest. Her argument seems to be that capitalism invariably creates losers, young men who lack economic clout and thus the status to which they feel entitled; and that capitalist society defends itself against their rage and disappointment by somehow deflecting it on to women, suggesting it's because of emasculating, uppity women that these men haven't got what they want. Or as she puts it, "neoliberalism may have set up vast swaths of people to fail, but the real problem cannot be a crisis of capitalism so it must be a crisis of gender".





> Why? One reason might be that this is Penny's fifth book in about four years, alongside a prodigious blogging and speaking and journalistic output, and it's a rare talent that can sustain being spread so thinly. There is something uncannily familiar about a hefty nine-page chunk of the final chapter, devoted to the Hollywood film trope of the kooky, sensitive Manic Pixie Dream Girl: a quick check reveals it's lifted, virtually word for word, from a recent piece she wrote for the New Statesman. It is a great piece, which is why I remembered it. But reprinting it here, with nothing more than an easily overlooked reference in the copyright blurb to parts of the book being "excerpted and extended" from published work, seems frankly to be pushing her luck. The fourth chapter, "Cybersexism", also rings a bell for a reason: it was first published as an ebook last year. And so on. It's fair enough for readers just discovering her, but diehard fans will have a sense of deja vu. Halfway through, I began to wonder if it isn't time Penny took her themes – social change, love and loss, coming of age – and turned them into a properly literary novel, rather than exploring them again in non-fiction.



Wow, that's appalling. What a hack.



> Yet for all her contradictions and irritatingly sweeping generalisations, when she's right she is very right. She provides a clear yet empathetic explanation for why the Occupy protesters signally failed to come up with a better idea than capitalism: those she met were often "homeless, jobless and multiply damaged", boarding the bus to protests because they had nowhere else to sleep. Barely surviving their own lives, they were incapable of reinventing everyone else's. Lecturing them from a great height on their lack of intellectual rigour seems somehow an inadequate response from a society that has failed to offer them any answers either.



Insert that tweet about her refusing to go outside and report during the protest.

Kinda stopped reading there.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/09/unspeakable-things-laurie-penny-review


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## Bakunin (Jul 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Or burlesque vs stripping. A differentiation that penny has been rather keen to get in on the wrong end of in the past.



If I remember rightly, wasn't her account of her burlesque period considered rather questionable by many people?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Guardian review of Penny's new book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's excellent - a review of a book by a privately schooled oxbridge graduate written by a privately schooled oxbridge graduate in a section of the paper edited by a privately schooled oxbridge graduate in a paper edited by a privately schooled oxbridge graduate. I know i keep banging on about this sort of thing but we must_ name these demons. _We must make these covert networks of privilege transparent to all. Maybe laurie and gaby and claire and alan and all the other little lauries and gabys and claires and alans so concerned with the operation of privilege would like to lend a hand?


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## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> If I remember rightly, wasn't her account of her burlesque period considered rather questionable by many people?


She was called a liar and a fantasist by a number of people and the multiple edits of the article stretching over an extended period (6 months!) plus the inclusion of an explanation at the end by the editors suggests some merit in these claims.


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## Theisticle (Jul 9, 2014)

Is Penny that lazy of a writer that she inserts her 'Manic Pixie Dream Girl' piece almost word-for-word in a book? It would appear so. That's scandalous really.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 9, 2014)

and so hacky even her bezzies at the groan couldn't let it slide in a friendly review


----------



## rekil (Jul 9, 2014)

From an amazon review.


> With quite a bit of pleasantly dry and snarky humour thrown in to break up discussions of some of the darker topics covered - for instance, her view that the problem isn't the lack of women in corporate boardrooms but that none of said boardrooms are on fire.


That bit of pathetic posing is from her oxford union performance I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Is Penny that lazy of a writer that she inserts her 'Manic Pixie Dream Girl' piece almost word-for-word in a book? It would appear so. That's scandalous really.


It gets worse, the e-book she included as an entire chapter is itself largely a collection of previously published articles. She clearly feels the need to have 250+ pages to suggest seriousness. 

Excellent line in the review:



> Like Caitlin Moran, another compulsive and essentially self-taught writer,



Self-taught. Really.


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## Theisticle (Jul 9, 2014)

> Throughout this polemic about the way gender roles have been destroyed under market forces, Penny thrills in being provocative and dramatic. When she talks about the high proportion of men who succeed in committing suicide, she can't stop there, but has to imagine how they might do so. The hyperbole continues in her chapter "Fucked Up Girls", when, after making a sound point about the pressure on girls to appear perfect at all times, she adds: "We can preserve you as the perfect girl… with a few subtle slits for easy penetration. Ageing can and must be fought with injections and knives."



WTF



> As with many writers who favour radical ideals over pragmatism, Penny's arguments often seem to contradict themselves. It is hard to pinpoint what the book is really trying to say, which Penny half-admits herself in the afterword. Just like the Occupy movement she supports, her revolution has no clear narrative.


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...tion-by-laurie-penny-book-review-9565404.html


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## Rural (Jul 9, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Guardian review of Penny's new book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol at "diehard fans"


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 9, 2014)

copliker said:


> From an amazon review.
> 
> That bit of pathetic posing is from her oxford union performance I think.



actually i think this is one bit that she's right about.  fuck reforming boardrooms, end capitalism.


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## Rural (Jul 9, 2014)

[QUOTE="el-ahrairah, post: 13258497, member: 30835"nk this is one bit that she's right about.  fuck reforming boardrooms, end capitalism.[/QUOTE]
But why is it referred to as the "darker side"? It looks reasonable to me.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 9, 2014)

because guardian people are liberals.  they get little liberal stiffies over joking about burning down boardrooms, but each and every one of them would allow their children to ritually sodomised by every member of every board in the country before they consider changing the system completely.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> Lol at "diehard fans"


I think that means us.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It gets worse, the e-book she included as an entire chapter is itself largely a collection of previously published articles. She clearly feels the need to have 250+ pages to suggest seriousness.
> 
> Excellent line in the review:
> 
> ...


I used to be more sympathetic to her than I am now but have always felt she was a pretty crap writer, there are plenty of poster on here with a much stronger claim to being self taught writers who piss all over her. But of course they don't get the newspaper columns and book deals as they never went to the right school.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 9, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I used to be more sympathetic to her than I am now but have always felt she was a pretty crap writer, there are plenty of poster on here with a much stronger claim to being self taught writers who piss all over her. But of course they don't get the newspaper columns and book deals as they never went to the right school.



What constitutes a trained writer I wonder? She's done journalism courses, according to Wiki, as well as a degree in English. Bizarre defensive claim really.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2014)

YouSir said:


> What constitutes a trained writer I wonder? She's done journalism courses, according to Wiki, as well as a degree in English. Bizarre defensive claim really.



The whole "self-taught" _schtick_ is part of LP's attempt to construct herself as outside of her actual influences (the private schooling, Oxbridge, all that stuff), and therefore not as a creature of those influences like so many others of her ilk.
She's always shown a fairly-illustrative sense of denial when it comes to admitting that she's the sum of the social and economic capital her parents invested in her.  What better than to propaagte a legend whereby you were the author of your own success, unassisted by others, untainted by those grubby networks that other people used to "get on".


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## Bakunin (Jul 9, 2014)

YouSir said:


> What constitutes a trained writer I wonder? She's done journalism courses, according to Wiki, as well as a degree in English. Bizarre defensive claim really.



Not if you're trying to sell the non-privileged, outsider 'worked my way up from the bottom by honest labour' schtick, it isn't. Wouldn't suit that narrative at all to be seen treading a conventional path.


----------



## JimW (Jul 9, 2014)

"Compulsive" is an apt choice though, but it's not "writer" you tend to pair it with


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 9, 2014)

Check your privilege, Penny Dreadful. The privilege you seem to be pretending isn't there...


----------



## weepiper (Jul 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The whole "self-taught" _schtick_ is part of LP's attempt to construct herself as outside of her actual influences (the private schooling, Oxbridge, all that stuff), and therefore not as a creature of those influences like so many others of her ilk.
> She's always shown a fairly-illustrative sense of denial when it comes to admitting that she's the sum of the social and economic capital her parents invested in her.  What better than to propaagte a legend whereby you were the author of your own success, unassisted by others, untainted by those grubby networks that other people used to "get on".



time for a repost of this to illustrate your point



> Laurie Penny was born in a skip in Islington in 1986 and grew up wild in the back-alleys of London’s bourgeois ghetto, surviving only on mouldy paninis and half-eaten pots of hummous fished out of bins and sleeping in rolled-up copies of The Observer Review. After a dispute with a notorious urban fox gang, she fled to Brighton Beach, and was taken in by a radical seagull collective and weaned on mulched-up, regurgitated back-issues of Spare Rib and Red Rag. Eventually she was offered a scholarship to Brighton College Sixth Form, where she edited a student newspaper and never learned to wear a tie. She went to Wadham College, Oxford, and later moved back to London to work in a shop in Camden Market, where being a scuzzy, mohawked Brighton feminist was part of the job description. It didn’t stick, and she rapidly turned to a life of journalism, having discovered that she was unsuited to any other employment by virtue of being weird and difficult. Now she has long hair, a semi-regular income, and zooms around trying to put the world to rights. She can still talk to seagulls.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 9, 2014)

weepiper said:


> time for a repost of this to illustrate your point



This is actually what she tells the Americans


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2014)

Don't forget, she's off to Harvard soon to do some fancy course in journalism. 

The book must be pretty awful if her mates at the Guardian aren't giving her a rave review.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 10, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Jul 10, 2014)

Wanting more white male pretend Labour party MPs in parliament is a little bit communism.


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

QUOTE="J Ed, post: 13260330, member: 58247"]

[/QUOTE]
"Heros" R not what is needed. I hate the crap about ppl needing someone to save them (from themselves). Save urself & kill ur heroes. Cant blv a *revolutionary* like lp would endorse this hero rhetoric. Oh wait


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Don't forget, she's off to Harvard soon to do some fancy course in journalism.
> 
> The book must be pretty awful if her mates at the Guardian aren't giving her a rave review.



Yeah, reading between the lines I think it's a bit of a demolition job to be honest - there's a lot of negative language in the review, the author makes it clear she is on LP's side, but phrases like:

She is a dazzling writer, but so dazzling that you wonder if sometimes the words race rather ahead of the facts.

Her argument seems to be

one is led to expect something well beyond the anecdotal here; more exploration, perhaps, of those missing working-class voices

Her economic theories feel rather hastily bolted on

it's a rare talent that can sustain being spread so thinly

But reprinting it here, with nothing more than an easily overlooked reference in the copyright blurb to parts of the book being "excerpted and extended" from published work, seems frankly to be pushing her luck

Halfway through, I began to wonder if it isn't time Penny took her themes – social change, love and loss, coming of age – and turned them into a properly literary novel, rather than exploring them again in non-fiction.

Yet for all her contradictions and irritatingly sweeping generalisations, 

_Unspeakable Things_may not be very much more than the sum of its parts

...don't add up to a good review - I'd say this is a filleting.


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yeah, reading between the lines I think it's a bit of a demolition job to be honest - there's a lot of negative language in the review, the author makes it clear she is on LP's side, but phrases like:
> 
> She is a dazzling writer, but so dazzling that you wonder if sometimes the words race rather ahead of the facts.
> 
> ...


Advising a non-fiction author they might be better off giving fiction a go is telling


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 10, 2014)

The Pale King the one about talent being spread thinly made me think it wasn't an adoring review - as you point out there are large number of negative comments in there - and if she can't get a rave review at the Guardian, where can she get one?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The Pale King the one about talent being spread thinly made me think it wasn't an adoring review - as you point out there are large number of negative comments in there - and if she can't get a rave review at the Guardian, where can she get one?



New Statesman.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The Pale King the one about talent being spread thinly made me think it wasn't an adoring review - as you point out there are large number of negative comments in there - and if she can't get a rave review at the Guardian, where can she get one?



Indeed - these are her greatest supporters. Insulating her from legitimate criticism and focussing on internet misogynists has proven to be killing with kindness. And recycling already published blogs and articles as new material is simply shoddy.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 10, 2014)

That Graun review tells you a whole lot more about Gaby Hinsliff than it does Laurie Penny. 


> She went to places others didn't and brought back things they had missed


Speak for yourself Gaby.


> What unsettled me more was the unusually literary edge to her reportage. She is a dazzling writer, but so dazzling that you wonder if sometimes the words race rather ahead of the facts.


It strikes me that journalists have a very strange idea of what makes a writer "dazzling". Penny's writing is riddled with cliches, implausible anecdotes, inappropriacies of tone and an inability to make the subject speak louder than her own voice. It's more slightly irritating than anything else.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 10, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Indeed - these are her greatest supporters. Insulating her from legitimate criticism and focussing on internet misogynists has proven to be killing with kindness. And recycling already published blogs and articles as new material is simply shoddy.




   Ooh.   Clever use of "shoddy" in its real sense there.   I is impressed.  Maybe you could have LP's space in the _Guardian_ and _New Statesman _ when she buggers off to Harvard.   Except I suppose she'll still need it to keep us all up to date with her adventures.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 10, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> ...
> 
> It strikes me that journalists have a very strange idea of what makes a writer "dazzling". Penny's writing is riddled with cliches, implausible anecdotes, inappropriacies of tone and an inability to make the subject speak louder than her own voice. It's more slightly irritating than anything else.



I think it's possible that the reviewer carefully chose to use "dazzling", but didn't mean it as a compliment.

<I have snarky cynical hat on today>


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 10, 2014)

Celyn said:


> I think it's possible that the reviewer carefully chose to use "dazzling", but didn't mean it as a compliment.
> 
> <I have snarky cynical hat on today>


I dunno, the writer's affection for LP seemed genuine enough. But then you can imagine the brief - "please review this book by one of our occasional columnists who we might want to use again in the future, try not to make it too much of a hatchet job"


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 10, 2014)

.


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

Celyn said:


> Ooh Clever use of "shoddy" in its real sense there.   I is impressed.  Maybe you could have LP's space in the _Guardian_ and _New Statesman _ when she buggers off to Harvard.   Except I suppose she'll still need it to keep us all up to date with her adventures.



Her adventures - fighting the system while being attacked by huge spiders while Ryan Gosling saves her life. Kind of like an Arachnophobia/ War of the Worlds/Reds mashup


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 10, 2014)

Rural said:


> Her adventures - fighting the system while being attacked by huge spiders while Ryan Gosling saves her life. Kind of like an Arachnophobia/ War of the Worlds/Reds mashup



I think the Girl Genius webcomic does that sort of thing better.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 10, 2014)

Rural said:


> Her adventures - fighting the system while being attacked by huge spiders while Ryan Gosling saves her life. Kind of like an Arachnophobia/ War of the Worlds/Reds mashup



Interesting mental image.

No more drugs for you, my friend.

Step away from the vinegar shaker full of acid and put the crack pipe down.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2014)

**


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> ""



And that I did not know. To the Deletionmobile.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 10, 2014)

Amanda Palmer writes:


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

Bakunin said:
			
		

> Interesting mental image.
> 
> No more drugs for you, my friend.
> 
> Step away from the vinegar shaker full of acid and put the crack pipe down.


Yes but remember, according to LP, those things *actually* happened to her IRL


----------



## J Ed (Jul 10, 2014)

Rural said:


> Yes but remember, according to LP, those things *actually* happened to her IRL



Was the Gosling thing ever verified by anyone?


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Was the Gosling thing ever verified by anyone?


Nope


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 10, 2014)

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/people/2012/04/05/ryan-gosling-laurie-penny-saga/

And don’t think we don’t see how puzzling it is that your story, the one that injects details like your “pink wig” and being lost in your own internal monologue, is strangely similar to the 2004 film _Closer—_the movie in which *Natalie Portman* adorns a pink wig and has a run-in with an automobile and *Jude Law*comes to her rescue. It’s now two days after the incident, and every report is still working off your stream of tweets. Goz has nothing to lose by being called a hero, so we’re left wondering: did it even really happen?


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

[http://tristanburke.tumblr.com/QUOTE="The Pale King, post: 13261783, member: 59401"]http://www.torontolife.com/informer/people/2012/04/05/ryan-gosling-laurie-penny-saga/

Excuse reposting but this blog discusses the RG story & includes those scenes from Closer. 

And don’t think we don’t see how puzzling it is that your story, the one that injects details like your “pink wig” and being lost in your own internal monologue, is strangely similar to the 2004 film _Closer—_the movie in which *Natalie Portman* adorns a pink wig and has a run-in with an automobile and *Jude Law*comes to her rescue. It’s now two days after the incident, and every report is still working off your stream of tweets. Goz has nothing to lose by being called a hero, so we’re left wondering: did it even really happen?

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Rural (Jul 10, 2014)

http://tristanburke.tumblr.com/

Sorry my link went weird in last reply


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 11, 2014)

Rosamund Urwin gave it a polite mauling in the Evening Standard yesterday.

I almost felt sorry for her for a while, until Urwin made it clear that Penny is completed deluded.  She identifies as 'radical' despite having no actual radical opinions: therefore all other opinions are not radical - actual radical opinions can be dismissed as liberal whilst Penny actually advocates reformist or anti-feminist positions.  Not that Urwin said this, but the bits she quoted made me realise that this is the one of the problems.

This is the problem with identity politics.  It's calling a dog a cat, demanding that the dog is allowed to catch mice, and blaming the mice for not being caught. 



that analogy may not work if your dog catches mice.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 12, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> This is the problem with identity politics.  It's calling a dog a cat, demanding that the dog is allowed to catch mice, and blaming the mice for not being caught.
> 
> 
> 
> that analogy may not work if your dog catches mice.


Are you calling Laurie a dog?


----------



## rekil (Jul 12, 2014)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/books...enny-on-the-politics-of-the-personal.24686346



			
				lauriepenny said:
			
		

> "Oh, but I really am committed to my online work, to my more ephemeral work, because I think that's the way that change really happens now," she responds, inhaling an e-cigarette. "With digital media you can have several conversations going at the same time. I can be fighting with someone in one window on Twitter; on another I might be writing a massive manifesto; *on yet another, I could be organising a demonstration. * That's how I almost always spend my days. I was built for the internet. Honestly, I believe that the geek shall inherit the earth."


What demonstration did she organise? 

Honestly, unless there's a fast-tracking of workers bomb development or a mass outbreak of Chijon Family style activism, I believe the private school and elite university educated (Oxford is 3rd in the world) shall inherit the earth.


----------



## xenon (Jul 12, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I dunno, the writer's affection for LP seemed genuine enough. But then you can imagine the brief - "please review this book by one of our occasional columnists who we might want to use again in the future, try not to make it too much of a hatchet job"



tIt was plainly a gloved fist of a review

It pretty much says, yeah, it's lightweight shite. I wouldn't bother if I were you. Dazzling = showy nothingness, spread thin talent...  Hastily bolted on theories.. . Try fiction.

It's a hatchet job.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 12, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> ...
> 
> 
> that analogy may not work if your dog catches mice.



Well, terriers catch rats ...


----------



## Celyn (Jul 12, 2014)

xenon said:


> tIt was plainly a gloved fist of a review
> 
> It pretty much says, yeah, it's lightweight shite. I wouldn't bother if I were you. Dazzling = showy nothingness, spread thin talent...  Hastily bolted on theories.. . Try fiction.
> 
> It's a hatchet job.



Yep, that's what I had in mind when suggesting that the reviewer might have been choosing her words carefully.   "Dazzling" sounds like a compliment, and it might be one, but there's also the "showy nothingness" interpretation.   

Still, many people write a book (or several) without getting publicity and reviews in the _Guardian_, so I don't suppose LP is worried, really.  Would she have enough awareness to realise that some people aren't really bowled over?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 12, 2014)

I predict that the book will be bought by a lot of people who won't read it


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 12, 2014)

xenon said:


> tIt was plainly a gloved fist of a review
> 
> It pretty much says, yeah, it's lightweight shite. I wouldn't bother if I were you. Dazzling = showy nothingness, spread thin talent...  Hastily bolted on theories.. . Try fiction.
> 
> It's a hatchet job.



Putting my professional hat on for a second, Id agree that it's a hatchet job. I wouldn't be surprised if those reviewers employed by her mates and other employers were quietly 'advised' to produce a positive review. For Penny Dreadful to be receiving openly bad reviews from reviewers working for the same publications that champion her so much wouldn't reflect too well on those employers and champions themselves, thus the need for positive reviews in advance, so to speak.

Problem with this is that journalists don't generally appreciate people trying to steer them in directions they themselves might not want to go, hence reviews that are outwardly positive while damning with the faintest possible praise.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> http://www.heraldscotland.com/books...enny-on-the-politics-of-the-personal.24686346
> 
> What demonstration did she organise?
> 
> Honestly, unless there's a fast-tracking of workers bomb development or a mass outbreak of Chijon Family style activism, I believe the private school and elite university educated (Oxford is 3rd in the world) shall inherit the earth.


Yeah, but you know, she could organise a demo if she wanted to. She hasn't to the best of my knowledge, but she could.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 12, 2014)

On a second reading, that Guardian review is full of backhanded compliments, I'm pretty sure Penny retweeted too, which once again demonstrates her delusion.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, but you know, she could organise a demo if she wanted to. She hasn't to the best of my knowledge, but she could.



Yeah, of the three things she says she could be doing (Twitter fighting, 'massive manifesto' writing, and demo organising), she seems to have got stuck on number one...


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 12, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yeah, of the three things she says she could be doing (Twitter fighting, 'massive manifesto' writing, and demo organising), she seems to have got stuck on number one...


I'm not sure I'd be admitting to massive manifesto writing after the last person who wrote one and sent it to loads of people shot and killed 6.


----------



## rekil (Jul 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, but you know, she could organise a demo if she wanted to. She hasn't to the best of my knowledge, but she could.


Schools like brighton college teach _leadership_ - it's drilled into 'em, like in full metal jacket, except their gunnery sergeant hartman shouts about how smart they are.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 12, 2014)

You can read parts of her book here: 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=thu7AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


----------



## Rural (Jul 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> http://www.heraldscotland.com/books...enny-on-the-politics-of-the-personal.24686346
> 
> What demonstration did she organise?
> 
> Honestly, unless there's a fast-tracking of workers bomb development or a mass outbreak of Chijon Family style activism, I believe the private school and elite university educated (Oxford is 3rd in the world) shall inherit the earth.


There is nothing geeky about arguing on twitter. Stupid & pointless maybe but not geeky


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 12, 2014)

Rural said:


> There is nothing geeky about arguing on twitter. Stupid & pointless maybe



Au contraire, Twitter spats can be a useful way to gain free publicity and tart your wares around the web if you're so inclined. If you have a thick skin and a shameless attitude to self-promotion then it's a marketing tool that you can use as a shop window if you know how.


----------



## Rural (Jul 12, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Au contraire, Twitter spats can be a useful way to gain free publicity and tart your wares around the web if you're so inclined. If you have a thick skin and a shameless attitude to self-promotion then it's a marketing tool that you can use as a shop window if you know how.


Yep i forgot the narcissistic aspects of it & was thinking in actual practical terms! My mistake


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> You can read parts of her book here:
> 
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=thu7AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


I tried. I really tried. But her style of writing is very shouty and makes my brain switch off after a few sentences. So I didn't get very far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I tried. I really tried.


but why did you try?


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 12, 2014)

Christ, the ability to write a paragraph but say nothing at all is pretty evident:


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Christ, the ability to write a paragraph but say nothing at all is pretty evident:



That's just faux-radical wordsoup. A tin of alphabetti spaghetti dropped on the floor. 'Two or three generations ago'? The passive voice covers a multitude of sins. Bullshit.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 13, 2014)

That reads like a sixth form essay.


----------



## Rural (Jul 13, 2014)

Belushi said:


> That reads like a sixth form essay.


*everything* I read from lp reads like a 6th form essay


----------



## cesare (Jul 13, 2014)

Trite observations written in the style of a Gothic novel.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jul 13, 2014)

What's the 40,000 years of human history referring to? Humans have existed for about 200,000 years, we began behaving like pretentious apes about 50,000 years ago and recorded history began after 3,000 BC.

Before the agricultural revolution, there were no political or skilled classes. Men were doomed to a life of chasing around rabbits every day and women looked after the kids. Women were/are oppressed in virtually every society that later emerged, but it's a bit of a stretch to impose a gender struggle narrative on the long period of human history when there was nothing for men to hoard (including political power).

Also - 'Women will not return to sexual and political subjection without a fight to the death'. Putting aside the difference between LP's rhetoric ('throw a punch!') and the reality (avoiding protests with a police presence), groups that have chosen death over political subjugation are very few and far between, and most people don't really care about their political rights unless it brings some sort of material disadvantage. I think what LP means is that the Twittersphere would go up in flames.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 13, 2014)

What a prick


----------



## rekil (Jul 13, 2014)

J Ed said:


>







Now that's a little bit Multitudinous Positionism baby!


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 13, 2014)

"the gays"?


----------



## rekil (Jul 13, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/13/unspeakable-things-review-laurie-penny-modern-feminism


> Her constituency, she says, is the underclass – gay and transgender people, goths, sex workers, rioters, anarchists – arguably the people with the most to lose from the neoliberalist agenda.


Goths?

GOTHS?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 57485
> 
> Now that's a little bit Multitudinous Positionism baby!


if she was interested in the truly momentous events in the world she'd have been watching the recent congress of the chinese communist party which installed the leadership for the next ten years instead of watching the results come in from the us presidential farce.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/13/unspeakable-things-review-laurie-penny-modern-feminism
> 
> Goths?
> 
> GOTHS?







at risk from neo-liberals: patricia morrison


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2014)




----------



## comrade spurski (Jul 13, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "the gays"?


yeah ... the gays...they live next door to us blacks and across the road from the disabled


----------



## toggle (Jul 13, 2014)

Belushi said:


> That reads like a sixth form essay.



actually, i'd say it has most of the characteristics of first year uni student. it's written in a way that says the author is trying to write academic language without properly understanding the purpose of academic language isn't to make her look clever. the passive voice, the overuse of big terms, mixed in with some immature(in an academic writing sense) phrasing that only succeeds in convincing that she dosen't really understand the terms she is throwing about. I'm also going to say that it reads like someone hasn't understood that you have to learn the rules of sentence construction properly before you can properly understand where to ignore them. basically, the main failing is that she is trying to use a writing style she isn't able to do properly to try to give an impression of ability and understanding 9and authority) that she dosen't have.


----------



## rekil (Jul 13, 2014)




----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Au contraire, Twitter spats can be a useful way to gain free publicity and tart your wares around the web if you're so inclined. If you have a thick skin and a shameless attitude to self-promotion then it's a marketing tool that you can use as a shop window if you know how.




Boycott Workfare have used twitter and other social media to great effect.


----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2014)

> Her constituency, she says, is the underclass – gay and transgender people, goths, sex workers, rioters, anarchists – arguably the people with the most to lose from the neoliberalist agenda.




I had my first encounter with an intersectionalist at the bookfair here this weekend, that is almost the same list that she reeled off, before she stormed out of the room as she 'didn't feel listened to and didn't feel safe'


----------



## weepiper (Jul 13, 2014)

> arguably the people with the most to lose from the neoliberalist agenda.


Go on then Penny, argue it with me.


----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2014)

A true gay son of the underclass, stand up for him Penny.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 13, 2014)

I've never heard someone use the term, "the gays" now I can only imagine her saying whilst doing inverted commas with her fingers.


----------



## Rural (Jul 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> Boycott Workfare have used twitter and other social media to great effect.


I tweet quite a lot,  Twitter can b great for some things.  What I think is silly is the arguments ppl get into on there where all anyone is interested in iz looking clever & making their opponent look a mug.  U don't get the intelligent nuanced debate that I've found on urban


----------



## rekil (Jul 13, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> "the gays"?


What's wrong with LGBTQQIAAPO? Has it  been cast aside in an irony fisted coup?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 13, 2014)

QUILTBAG or death


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 13, 2014)

Would it be fair to generalise that after a few pages of generalisations that the rest of her book will be more of the same?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Would it be fair to generalise that after a few pages of generalisations that the rest of her book will be more of the same?


Generally speaking


----------



## Belushi (Jul 13, 2014)

Jeez, it's Mutiny at the Bunty


----------



## Rural (Jul 13, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Jeez, it's Mutiny at the Bunty


Signing petitions, supporting Obama,  cheering the liberals.  I see *nothing* in this that doesn't support her claim to be a revolutionary anarchist


----------



## rekil (Jul 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> at risk from neo-liberals: patricia morrison


She quit because tightfist Eldritch was paying her only £75 a week or something. At that time I was getting £150 a week *plus* room and board in a pub. I could've got her a few hours no probs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> She quit because tightfist Eldritch was paying her only £75 a week or something. At that time I was getting £150 a week *plus* room and board in a pub. I could've got her a few hours no probs.


yeh but back then she didn't realise that come 2014 neo-liberals would be dogging her tracks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Would it be fair to generalise that after a few pages of generalisations that the rest of her book will be more of the same?


surely "more of the shame"


----------



## two sheds (Jul 14, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Jeez, it's Mutiny at the Bunty










Where's photoshop when you need it?


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

Owen Jones having a pop at Ian Bone in a piece about the Eton polar bear youngster. This'll go well.



> In a recent anti-austerity protest organised by the People's Assembly, Bone's Class War crew decided not to target, say, George Osborne or Iain Duncan-Smith, but mocked up an admittedly amusing banner featuring a still of me from a BBC programme clutching a bottle of champagne, adorned with the emphatic words: "Fuck off back to Oxford." Bone is a disciple of Mikhail Bakunin, a 19th-century Russian anarchist whose aristocratic family owned 500 serfs, and of the even more aristocratic Russian Peter Kropotkin.
> 
> This background-baiting unites Bone with the vitriolic right, many of whom remain silent about class privilege until it becomes a convenient means to attack a leftwinger.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 14, 2014)

clearly not chuffed



> a still of me from a BBC programme clutching a bottle of champagne, adorned with the emphatic words: "Fuck off back to Oxford.



^^this however is lol


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Owen Jones having a pop at Ian Bone in a piece about the Eton polar bear youngster. This'll go well.


Let the lesson in asymmetric warfare commence!


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

I reckon that as part of a Labour/CW #payback2015 pact, OJ has agreed to give Ian "the mention" every so often.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2014)

Owen Jones said:
			
		

> I think Oxbridge should have an automatic enrolment for the brightest working class kids.



Jones' partner is eton-educated btw


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

"the supermarket shelf stacker, the nurse, the young black man"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> "the supermarket shelf stacker, the nurse, the young black man"


The long-thought lost first draft of the Prodigy's ‘Firestarter’ lyrics?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Jones' partner is eton-educated btw



How can anyone who calls themselves socialist argue in favour of _reforming_ Eton??


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

Why isn't he arguing that all private schools should be _reformed to the ground with the people defending them inside_?


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

The supermarket shelf stacker, the nurse, the young black man
Doing the best they can, building their brands 
Hard working families glued to plasma wide screens
Not long to go til payback 2015


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

> Mocking an Eton boy's death is the worst politics of envy



I can't believe that he agreed to write an article with that heading.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> The supermarket shelf stacker, the nurse, the young black man
> Doing the best they can, building their brands
> Hard working families glued to plasma wide screens
> Not long to go til payback 2015



The revolution will be brought about by the autonomous construction of ethical personal brands by privately educated Oxbridge journalists or it will be more than a little bit racism/sexism/_politics of envy_


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I can't believe that he agreed to write an article with that heading.


Bastille Day and all.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

BTW OJ has been a bit quiet about the paedophile thing hasn't he, is it because Labour people are implicated?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> How can anyone who calls themselves socialist argue in favour of _reforming_ Eton??


 
Reform...with extreme prejudice?


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I can't believe that he agreed to write an article with that heading.



They could have come up with something more tabloid-friendly:

'Bear-faced cheek' springs to mind.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Jones' partner is eton-educated btw



Just got banned from Owen Jones' 'like' page on facebook for pointing this out


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

He changed his tune


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2014)

Odd choice of attack on the SW by Jones, to argue that the SWP aren't real proper Leninists like what he is:



> The SWP is expressly not Stalinist, having emerged from the notoriously fractured Trotskyist movement. But its internal authoritarianism – a parody of whatever Lenin meant by "democratic centralism" – reeks of Stalinism



Not to mention attacking Bone for having a pop at him rather than attacking bigger more deserving target, in a piece that Jones gives over almost entirely to attacking not one, but two minor targets instead of the properly deserving. Nor his (Jones) attacking these minor targets for their attacking people simply for being rich when the remainder of his own article consists in him attacking them, not for personally being rich, _but for agreeing with things that rich people have said and done in the past.
_
Very poor this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> He changed his tune



Indeed, i did quick trawl for his past comments on eton - he's left himself wide open. So lazy and arrogant do these people become once they're ensconced that own goals become inevitable. And i actually agree with the wider point that he's failing to effectively make here.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 14, 2014)

he accussed me of being a rape apologist on his facebook page for mentioning that he told me the other week that socialists don't criticse other socialists!

now that is a nasty thing to do.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jul 14, 2014)

Orwell was not a fuckin socialist....gggrrrr


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 14, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Orwell was not a fuckin socialist....gggrrrr



If he were still alive I'd love to see what he'd make of the SWP. 

Mincemeat, in all probability.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> He changed his tune



Posted whilst in Ann Arbor


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2014)

Anyway, this is just Eton trifles


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Posted whilst in Ann Arbor


University of Michigan? Wtf else is there?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> If he were still alive I'd love to see what he'd make of the SWP.
> 
> Mincemeat, in all probability.


tbh most people  make mincemeat of the swp


----------



## seventh bullet (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> "the supermarket shelf stacker...



I am quite capable of speaking for myself Owen Jones, and while over the years I haven't exactly been a fan of Class War I think you should shove that megaphone up your arse and 'Fuck off back to Oxford.'


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> University of Michigan? Wtf else is there?


The old MC5 communal house.


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

> In the early 2000s, Ann Arbor's City Council debated an ordinance that included extensive regulation of animal cruelty, ranging from the number of pets a household could keep to the particular conditions required. Hours of debate on the ordinance spread across multiple Council meetings provided a new term for snarkily discussing the frivolity of a particular issue of public policy, when discussion was bogged down by an attempt to define what constituted a proper level of human companionship for goldfish.


Likin' that kind of thing


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I am quite capable of speaking for myself Owen Jones, and while over the years I haven't exactly been a fan of Class War I think you should shove that megaphone up your arse and 'Fuck off back to Oxford.'


I see Owen narrating a Labour election video featuring actors playing proles who stop whatever ghastly activities they're engaged in to turn, tilt their heads and gawp forlornly at the camera for a couple of secs.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 14, 2014)




----------



## seventh bullet (Jul 14, 2014)

Good.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>




Twat


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 14, 2014)

it's clear he sees anything left of labour as if not outright enemy, a fools errand.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

You will only undermine my allegiance to slavery if you can offer a coherent alternative

You will only undermine my allegiance to apartheid if you can offer a coherent alternative

You will only undermine my allegiance to The Borg if you can offer a coherent alternative


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> it's clear he sees anything left of labour as if not outright enemy, a fools errand.



Political class solidarity


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> You will only undermine my allegiance to The Borg if you can offer a coherent alternative









'You will ALL be assimilated...'


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 14, 2014)

Is the elitist education? Rubbing shoulders with the powerful? Owen just loves his Labour Party. A party that he pretends is not a carbon-copy of the centre-right. 

Nor will he admit the People's Assembly is some bollocks campaign for get people voting Labour and a slightly less crushing austerity. Fuck that.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 14, 2014)

Oh, and LOL


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> bit patronising saying statistics etc are a "man" thing. almost as if women are irrational and can't think


this is red leader calling frogwoman, come in frogwoman


----------



## Rural (Jul 15, 2014)

"POLITICS of envy" as oj calls it is just another way of silencing dissent.  Why shouldn't ppl b envious & see how unfair things are? "Oh go on, u just have everything,  don't mind me, I'll b over here with nothing" why does he have to demonise those with less in this way? Nasty name-calling,  he can dish it out but can't take it. Also he is very defensive, much more than lp & regularly mocks (not very successfully) ppl on Twitter who disagree with him. He demands I'dthen "r u socialist or anarchist? " & Seems to think calling them anarchists is a huge insult. Usually he comes across as an arrogant prissy mug imo


----------



## J Ed (Jul 15, 2014)

I used to think that he was okay, but he seems increasingly just like a dishonest salesman with a niche shtick - just like Laurie Penny.


----------



## Rural (Jul 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I used to think that he was okay, but he seems increasingly just like a dishonest salesman with a niche shtick - just like Laurie Penny.


He has got more bitter lately,  I rmbr a year or 2 ago he addressed what he calls one of the "twitter anarchists" saying how he (oj) really shared his beliefs & how hard it was for him (oj) to compromise & take a softer approach but that gradually, bit by bit,  he (oj) was aiming for full communism,  just like the anarchists.  Except oj was achieving it thru joining the labour party.  Or something


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 15, 2014)

wait, whut?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 15, 2014)

feckin liberals


----------



## J Ed (Jul 15, 2014)

If it were up to Hague we'd be in a quagmire in Syria, nice Tory hero you have there Sunny


----------



## Rural (Jul 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> If it were up to Hague we'd be in a quagmire in Syria, nice Tory hero you have there Sunny


 
I thought he was joking!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 15, 2014)

nope.  he means it!


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 15, 2014)




----------



## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but why did you try?


Mainly to see if it was as bad as I feared.

It was worse.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2014)

treelover said:


> I had my first encounter with an intersectionalist at the bookfair here this weekend, that is almost the same list that she reeled off, before she stormed out of the room as she 'didn't feel listened to and didn't feel safe'


Ah the 'didn't feel safe' card. Often played because they're not being agreed with and fawned over about their right-on politics. Which just reduces the effectiveness of the phrase for those who might genuinely need a safe space.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> he accussed me of being a rape apologist on his facebook page for mentioning that he told me the other week that socialists don't criticse other socialists!
> 
> now that is a nasty thing to do.


That is a very nasty thing to do indeeed, especially when you are about as far as you can get from a rape apologist. 

Know any lawyers? That's potentially libellous.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Know any lawyers? That's potentially libellous.


I can pass on details of one who's happy to send out defamation letters, literally no questions asked...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> I can pass on details of one who's happy to send out defamation letters, literally no questions asked...


i offer a complementary service, being happy to send out defamatory letters


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That is a very nasty thing to do indeeed, especially when you are about as far as you can get from a rape apologist.
> 
> Know any lawyers? That's potentially libellous.



Has anybody else noted the tendency of some Twatterati to libel people if they think they can get away with it and then grovel when they realise they can't?


----------



## Rural (Jul 15, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Has anybody else noted the tendency of some Twatterati to libel people if they think they can get away with it and then grovel when they realise they can't?


I'm absolutely sick to death of ppl throwing around the phrase *rape apologist* when the person its aimed at is nothing of the sort. I'm just grateful that ppl I know irl never use insults like that. In fact most of my friends would not know what it means.  It seems to be a twitter catchphrase to describe what these types also call *the very worst* when the ppl they r describing r far removed from the actual very worst.  Or they've lived very sheltered lives.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Know any lawyers? That's potentially libellous.



it's pretty tempting tbh but life's to short to engage in legal spats over facebook arguments.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 15, 2014)

LP: That’s part of the reason it has so much memoir in there. It was difficult to strike a balance between that and polemic – because you have to have the personal gossip that moves polemic along, and there’s a lot of stuff that is straight up polemic. And the memoir bits explain where my politics come from and how they developed. If I were going to write straight memoir – but I’m 27 and far too young to write memoirs – here I barely talk about my family at all – and there are very good reasons for that – and I don’t talk about Oxford at all. University was my least political time, because I went there very young – I was just 17 and just out of hospital. I spent a couple of years just getting myself well and doing a lot of theatre and drinking gin and being a reprobate and scraping through my exams. It was a couple of years off serious politics. I needed to use the time for other things – self-care is radical. People go on at me about Oxford – and sure it’s important to acknowledge privilege.

from: http://www.feministtimes.com/left-tendency-to-eat-itself/


...got that? Drinking gin and doing theatre at Oxford is radical. Liked these as well:

"Stories have always fascinated me – the more engaged I’ve got with writing, the more I have realised that politics is a story we tell ourselves about what life is about, what identity is about, and the more you can change the story the more you can change the future."

"I could no longer do this kind of unremitting engagement without a physical break. If I hadn’t got that fellowship, I would still have taken a year off of some kind. It’s been really difficult to fight my corner and look after myself and do the work – which doesn’t mean it’s not been worth doing, but I have to think long term and not burn out. That would be sad – no one wants to be in the 27 club. I’m 27 but my birthday’s in September, so I am probably all right."

We can only hope she doesn't have to take her rightful place alongside Brian Jones et al and that Harvard will prove recuperative. She works so ruddy bloody hard on our behalf we really should be more grateful.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's pretty tempting tbh but life's to short to engage in legal spats over facebook arguments.



Anyway we know where he drinks :thumbs :


----------



## Humberto (Jul 15, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> She works so ruddy bloody hard on our behalf we really should be more grateful.



That was the message I found we were meant to take on board during her short contributions here. That and you were also being rather beastly.


----------



## Rural (Jul 15, 2014)

Humberto said:


> That was the message I found we were meant to take on board during her short contributions here. That and you were also being rather beastly.


She is on urban? I didn't know that lol


----------



## Humberto (Jul 15, 2014)

Rural said:


> She is on urban? I didn't know that lol



Yeah she dropped in for a couple of posts months ago. Called us all ungrateful basically.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's pretty tempting tbh but life's to short to engage in legal spats over facebook arguments.


Your call obviously, but if he does it again, at least you know it's an option.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Yeah she dropped in for a couple of posts months ago. Called us all ungrateful basically.


And then heavily used some of our discussion points for her articles, but all the journos do that.


----------



## Humberto (Jul 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And then heavily used some of our discussion points for her articles, but all the journos do that.



Bastards!  Shows its all worthwhile if your contributions can be ripped off by dim careerists in not so high places.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 15, 2014)

Rural said:


> She is on urban? I didn't know that lol



http://www.urban75.net/forums/search/32130086/


----------



## cesare (Jul 15, 2014)

Rural said:


> She is on urban? I didn't know that lol


There was a massive argument about some aspersions she'd cast on a couple of the posters here (via twitter) and it all became quite heated until she "apologised". She's since visited again a couple of times when she's been alerted to something someone or other has posted or said.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 15, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Bastards!  Shows its all worthwhile if your contributions can be ripped off by dim careerists in not so high places.


No wonder the working class aren't heard - the twitterati are stealing our words and shouting them instead of us.


----------



## Humberto (Jul 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> No wonder the working class aren't heard - the twitterati are stealing our words and shouting them instead of us.



Theres worse problems though. Its easy to become a nuisance after all.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 16, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Theres worse problems though. Its easy to become a nuisance after all.


True.


----------



## Rural (Jul 16, 2014)

cesare said:


> There was a massive argument about some aspersions she'd cast on a couple of the posters here (via twitter) and it all became quite heated until she "apologised". She's since visited again a couple of times when she's been alerted to something someone or other has posted or said.


The posts I read from her were exactly  I expected.  Didn't see her tweets,  she's not someone I'd follow on Twitter.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

I cannot actually see the Laurie Penny posts, did she put me on ignore?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I cannot actually see the Laurie Penny posts, did she put me on ignore?


You may have either your PlagiarismChecker or TediumBlockPro settings too high - you need to go to the Arsehole Filters part of the User Control Panel to change them.


----------



## cesare (Jul 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I cannot actually see the Laurie Penny posts, did she put me on ignore?


Can you see the search results? http://www.urban75.net/forums/search/32132681/


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

Nope!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 16, 2014)

Me neither?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 16, 2014)

nor I


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

Damnit, I was hoping that I'd uniquely offended her somehow


----------



## cesare (Jul 16, 2014)

Maybe search results are unique to the poster doing the search, I dunno. User name is lauriepenny btw


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2014)

You can't share search results - but you should be able to see a poster's profile page, from which you can see their posts:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/members/lauriepenny.57994/


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

OK, nevermind


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> OK, nevermind


You are actually genuinely disappointed that you haven't uniquely offended LP, aren't you?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 16, 2014)

oh wow I'd forgotten how that went.  Dark days.


----------



## rekil (Jul 16, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> You can't share search results - but you should be able to see a poster's profile page, from which you can see their posts:
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/members/lauriepenny.57994/


You h@><0r3d the board kewlstyle.

http://manyfesto.org/2014/07/15/the-weaponized-naked-girl/

This blogpost about Crabapple, Femen, Pussy Riot and urban75 poster lauriepenny touches on some of the stuff brought up here . 

Crabapple is calling herself a Bonapartist now apparently.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> Crabapple is calling herself a Bonapartist now apparently.



That's an interesting euphemism for cheerleader of US foreign policy, war and far-right paramilitarism in Venezuela. I wonder if she cleared it with her boss James Murdoch first?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

This article is brilliant btw copliker 

Particularly like this bit



> I asked the question, why is a young woman like Molly Crabapple chosen to write about Syria, and not a young woman like Eva Bartlett? We could say it’s as simple as the fact that Crabapple supports NATO intervention in Syria, weaving a case for the need for intervention by bravely “risking her life” going 100 meters into Syria to report on the need for the Syrian government to be overthrown by foreign forces. Bartlett does not agree with this, but let’s also look deeper at what disqualifies her: she has worked as a regional organizer for ISM in Gaza, speaks Arabic, and has a firm grounding in the region. She has worked as a human shield for the Palestinian people against imperialist bombs. While this first-hand knowledge might qualify her to some, it would probably disqualify her from taking a job in professional journalism, as this would require a level of “objectivity” she clearly no longer possesses.
> 
> This position also offered her the opportunity to visit the prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, where hundreds of prisoners are denied basic rights as human beings and are currently on mass hunger strike. The stories of torture and mistreatment out of Guantanamo are not hard to find, including reports of a  CIA murder cover up, but these are conspicuously absent from Crabapple’s reporting. She instead spends most of her time with the guards and wardens of the prison camp, drawing pictures of the idyllic scenery and the equipment they use to torture the prisoners. She draws Guantanamo as overgrown and mysterious, lush and abandoned, a sort of Tim Burton set. It is no longer threatening, merely an uncomfortable afterthought. When questioning the purpose of this visit, I was asked “What could someone REALLY dig up on such a trip?” What indeed. So then the question becomes: why was this woman who did no journalism of note, who left out actual journalism of note from her report, allowed to visit such a blight on humanity if not to present an acceptable and non-threatening version of it to her audience?
> 
> It’s clear then, that a woman such as this is not qualified to be considered a journalist, much less a “leftist” by any serious standards. She is simply a pop-culture propagandist, marketed to young leftists as an acceptable and attractive alternative to Thomas Friedman. Yet, when confronted with criticism on her position or credentials, Crabapple retreats into a victim’s shell. Her critics are “haters”, “jealous”, or “obsessed with her [sexually]“. Refugee Palestinian children become her sexual molesters while she simultaneously and bravely calls for their betterment - not through BDS or armed resistance, but *some*how. Likewise, the “left” pelts her with alleged rape threats while she is only trying to help them win broader exposure. Her sexuality as a woman simultaneously promotes and shields her. She even went as far as to paint a portrait of herself with various criticisms painted over her face – few of them were threats to her body, most of them to her politics, but certainly all one and the same in her artistic representation.[/quote


----------



## rekil (Jul 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> That's an interesting euphemism for cheerleader of US foreign policy, war and far-right paramilitarism in Venezuela. I wonder if she cleared it with her boss James Murdoch first?


Crabapple's rotten blurtings about Venezuela, the brutal poors murdering our beautiful white girls, are a bit of a glaring omission.


----------



## Rural (Jul 16, 2014)

I had to do my own search, that link said "page not found error"


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 16, 2014)

Christ, she is shameless


----------



## Balbi (Jul 16, 2014)

She's criticising the author of that piece for self funding her masters degree at SOAS as well, well for having a masters but not realising the author delivered Chinese food and such to pay for it 

Did do an event for the Economist though, which is worse than having your own agent to book stuff for you. Obviously.


----------



## rekil (Jul 16, 2014)

Balbi said:


> She's criticising the author of that piece for self funding her masters degree at SOAS as well, well for having a masters but not realising the author delivered Chinese food and such to pay for it
> 
> Did do an event for the Economist though, which is worse than having your own agent to book stuff for you. Obviously.


She was a temp secretary or something at the economist.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 16, 2014)

14:00-15:00 mark - Crabapple admits it's pretty easy to get journalistic access to Gitmo, you just need a) quite a bit of money b) someone to publish your piece and c) approach the Gitmo press office.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20141302


----------



## fractionMan (Jul 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> You h@><0r3d the board kewlstyle.
> 
> http://manyfesto.org/2014/07/15/the-weaponized-naked-girl/
> 
> ...



First politics blog post I've got all the way through in a long time.  Great stuff.


----------



## Balbi (Jul 16, 2014)

Both have called it bullshit, the article and that women making personal attacks on other women isn't an activism they're part of. Which proves the point, entirely.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 16, 2014)

How to retain your left 'cred' while continuing your PR work on behalf of the likes of James Murdoch? Limit your support of revolutionary struggles to those which took place in the 18th Century.


----------



## rekil (Jul 16, 2014)

Balbi said:


> She's criticising the author of that piece for self funding her masters degree at SOAS as well, well for having a masters but not realising the author delivered Chinese food and such to pay for it
> 
> Did do an event for the Economist though, which is worse than having your own agent to book stuff for you. Obviously.



She reckons they got this by being doxxed by Vice journo Danny Gold who knows her real name from a while ago and was poking around her linkedin. I'm certainly not on linkedin so I dunno how that works. You can see who's viewing your profile?


----------



## treelover (Jul 16, 2014)

Noreena Hertz the self styled 'anti-capitalist' queen, sorry, economist, has written a self help book "_Eyes Wide Open: How to Make Smart Decisions in a Confusing World" 
_
The publishers quote a Sony exec as approving of the the book.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 16, 2014)

i wondered what a bonapartist is.  i looked it up.  i think marx got it right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonapartism#.27Bonapartist.27_as_a_Marxist_epithet

"Bonapartists preserve and mask the power of a narrower ruling class"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> I'm certainly not on linkedin so I dunno how that works. You can see who's viewing your profile?



Yes, so if you are _researching_ someone it pays to either have cover, or to just not give a shit who knows you are looking at someone or something.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2014)

It was never like this in The Lez years 


Spoiler: SEMI-NAKED FLATMATE TRIGGER WARNING



http://instagram.com/p/qeS_EPFb6H/



Touch of the Batemans there, too.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> 14:00-15:00 mark - Crabapple admits it's pretty easy to get journalistic access to Gitmo, you just need a) quite a bit of money b) someone to publish your piece and c) approach the Gitmo press office.
> 
> http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20141302


PD trip to Gitmo in 2015 then? We could crowdsource the money...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> Schools like brighton college teach _leadership_ - *it's drilled into 'em,* like in full metal jacket, except their gunnery sergeant hartman shouts about how smart they are.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> PD trip to Gitmo in 2015 then? We could crowdsource the money...


Could we get Delroy Booth out of retirement to perform a burlesque benefit night? HASHTAGMONEYSPINNER


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 17, 2014)

PS Our old friend Amanda is celebrating finishing her book, which apparently “expands upon her popular TED talk to reveal how ordinary people, those of us without thousands of Twitter followers and adoring fans, can use these same principles in our own lives.”

Eh?

Well...



> Imagine standing on a box in the middle of a busy city, dressed as a white-faced bride, and silently using your eyes to ask people for money. Or touring Europe in a punk cabaret band, and finding a place to sleep each night by reaching out to strangers on Twitter. For Amanda Palmer, actions like these have gone beyond satisfying her basic needs for food and shelter — they've taught her how to turn strangers into friends, build communities, and discover her own giving impulses. And because she had learned how to ask, she was able to go to the world to ask for the money to make a new album and tour with it, and to raise over a million dollars in a month.



http://www.powells.com/biblio/9781455581085


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Posted whilst in Ann Arbor





copliker said:


> University of Michigan? Wtf else is there?


It's like a WASPy Left Bank version of Ann Coulter


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'M IN CHARGE HERE!


The Judgment of Solomon


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 17, 2014)

I think this may be peak post-hipster/intersectional irony Tumblr time:

http://mentakingup2muchspaceonthetrain.tumblr.com/


----------



## rekil (Jul 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I think this may be peak post-hipster/intersectional irony Tumblr time:
> 
> http://mentakingup2muchspaceonthetrain.tumblr.com/


It'll have to go head to head with Melissa Gira Grant describing an org (involving kidnapping survivor Elizabeth Smart) that tries to rescue kids from sex trafficking as "peak saviour, never underestimate white people".  Hands off the kiddy trafficking trade!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> It'll have to go head to head with Melissa Gira Grant describing an org (involving kidnapping survivor Elizabeth Smart) that tries to rescue kids from sex trafficking as "peak saviour, never underestimate white people".  Hands off the kiddy trafficking trade!


End the nonceplaining!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I think this may be peak post-hipster/intersectional irony Tumblr time:
> 
> http://mentakingup2muchspaceonthetrain.tumblr.com/


Some of the pictures are interesting though - there are obviously loads of squashed people.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> It'll have to go head to head with Melissa Gira Grant describing an org (involving kidnapping survivor Elizabeth Smart) that tries to rescue kids from sex trafficking as "peak saviour, never underestimate white people".  Hands off the kiddy trafficking trade!


I think Elizabeth's outlook is pretty amazing considering what she went through.


----------



## Favelado (Jul 17, 2014)

I saw Owen Jones mentioned in El Pais today. World domination is happening.


----------



## Balbi (Jul 18, 2014)

#GLOBALPAYBACK2015


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2014)

#Gobacktooxfordseñorjones


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

Looking forward to an OJ article about the need for a UK Podemos, "but one that supports the Labour left and our historic links to trade unions up and down the country".

Molly Crabapple's response to that blogpost was to slap the author's real name up on the twitter machine.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Molly Crabapple's response to that blogpost was to slap the author's real name up on the twitter machine.



Hell hath no fury like a scorned neoliberal imperialist cheerleading shit puppet millionaire


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2014)

She truly is the Richard Branson of the neo-liberal age.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jul 18, 2014)

J Ed said:


> #Gobacktooxfordseñorjones



#Vuelvaaoxfordseñorjoneshijodeputa!


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2014)

Es amigo de nuestro propio PPSOE, de verdad


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Looking forward to an OJ article about the need for a UK Podemos, "but one that supports the Labour left and our historic links to trade unions up and down the country".
> 
> Molly Crabapple's response to that blogpost was to slap the author's real name up on the twitter machine.



Shit.



LOL, does she not know how the block button works?


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2014)

She doesn't have to respond because it's 'harassment'. 'Neoliberalism at fever pitch' was spot on.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2014)

Just look at her timeline, this is how she distorts criticism

She turns articles like the one above into





Is this sort of behaviour learnt or actively being taught?


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2014)

Presumably they 'enable those who do so' by criticising her. So just don't criticise her at all and everything will be alright!


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2014)

Mebbe the heat's getting to me...but this seems to be a good piece by La Penny....

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/07/westminster-child-abuse-inquiry-corruption-heart-state

Have I done wrong here?


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 18, 2014)

They aren't actively calling for *her* to be hanged, more insinuating that imperialist propaganda got people hung. Christ.


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Mebbe the heat's getting to me...but this seems to be a good piece by La Penny....
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/07/westminster-child-abuse-inquiry-corruption-heart-state
> 
> Have I done wrong here?


It's another by the numbers rehash of the 100s of opinion pieces already out there and adds nothing, except the promotion of the LP brand. Note the ad for the shindig at the bottom of the piece.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's another by the numbers rehash of the 100s of opinion pieces already out there and adds nothing, except the promotion of the LP brand.



Yeah, there is nothing wrong with it but that's because it's a re-writing of the work and research of others who have genuinely put their necks on the line for the story.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 18, 2014)

I do sympathise with the genuine and utterly disgusting misogyny, death/rape threats, they receive, but the way Crabapple openly distorts that above example for brand building is really unpleasant.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, there is nothing wrong with it but that's because it's a re-writing of the work and research of others who have genuinely put their necks on the line for the story.



Yeah, not even a hat-tip to those reporters. A cut'n'paste job.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I do sympathise with the genuine and utterly disgusting misogyny, death/rape threats, they receive, but the way Crabapple openly distorts that above example for brand building is really unpleasant.



The thing is that she trivialises that sort of disgusting behaviour by conflating it with people suggesting that if she were alive in another time she could be have been held to account for her promotion of right-wing terrorism.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yeah, not even a hat-tip to those reporters. A cut'n'paste job.



So...yeah, I did do wrong. Instead of calling it 'good', I should properly have said that la Penny had produced a derivative re-hash, 'cut'n'paste' that didn't have much wrong with it.

But by her standards....?

But FWIW, any MSM copy that promotes readers to question the complicit actions of the 'deep state' has to have some merit.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 18, 2014)

I've never understood how Penny fails to put any links her articles. Not hard.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2014)

brogdale said:


> So...yeah, I did do wrong. Instead of calling it 'good', I should properly have said that la Penny had produced a derivative re-hash, 'cut'n'paste' that didn't have much wrong with it.
> 
> But by her standards....?
> 
> But FWIW, any MSM copy that promotes readers to question the complicit actions of the 'deep state' has to have some merit.



No harm to you Broggers! 

By her standards it's Pulitzer - worthy!


----------



## Favelado (Jul 18, 2014)

Now that all that information is out there it's not difficult to make a sensible summary of it. Here, David Icke does what Laurie does in her article, with only a little added in way of clumsy metaphor and extra accusation. I post this *not *as a supporter of the turquoise tracksuit fan, but to illustrate the point that she's hardly doing great work here.




10 quid if you make it to the end of the vid. PM me with your Paypal details.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 18, 2014)

It must be to fun to be paid to write articles after the best and original analysis is already written. Hoover journalism.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It must be to fun to be paid to write articles after the best and original analysis is already written. Hoover journalism.



Not wishing to extend my (limited) defence of La Penny, but have you read the NS recently? She ain't alone in 'hoovering' for a living. Compared to something like the LRB, the NS looks like the fucking Beano these days.


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

Classic bit of Oxplaining from BBC journo Julia MacFarlane (variety of elite international private schools etc).


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Classic bit of Oxplaining from BBC journo Julia MacFarlane (variety of elite international private schools etc).




Yuck


----------



## weepiper (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Classic bit of Oxplaining from BBC journo Julia MacFarlane (variety of elite international private schools etc).




Riiight. Because 4 children getting killed by naval gunshells from a hostile occupying force isn't at_ all _political


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 18, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Not wishing to extend my (limited) defence of La Penny, but have you read the NS recently? She ain't alone in 'hoovering' for a living. Compared to something like the LRB, the NS looks like the fucking Beano these days.



Oh really? I've always found the NS quite nauseating. Wasn't too long ago, George Eaton was spunking his trousers over Labour's horrendous welfare proposals for young people.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Oxplaining



*SAVES*


----------



## Rural (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Classic bit of Oxplaining from BBC journo Julia MacFarlane (variety of elite international private schools etc).



But their deaths r political.  And their lives were cheap. Isn't this relevant?  What's the point of mentioning them otherwise?


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

It's all kicking off


----------



## captainmission (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> Classic bit of Oxplaining from BBC journo Julia MacFarlane (variety of elite international private schools etc).




Being such an impartially BBC journalist i'm sure she made the same criticism of Israel.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Oh really? I've always found the NS quite nauseating. Wasn't too long ago, George Eaton was spunki.ng his trousers over Labour's horrendous welfare proposals for young people.


 The clue being in the wording of the Webb's chosen title for their organ; the new _*state*_sman


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's all kicking off



Paul Mason veers between good stuff and total bollocks, doesn't he?


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

.


Lo Siento. said:


> Paul Mason veers between good stuff and total bollocks, doesn't he?


He's right that drawing equivalence between a proper loon outlet like RT with the BBC is wrong. I think someone on here, butchers probably, posted something about this fairly recently. Mason is going in pretty hard on O'Hagan. PD #solidarity detachment on standby.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> He's right that drawing equivalence between a proper loon outlet like RT with the BBC is wrong. I think someone on here, butchers probably, posted something about this fairly recently.


I don't think there's enough in Ellie's original statement to just call "rubbish", the BBC isn't neutral.


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I don't think there's enough in Ellie's original statement to just call "rubbish", the BBC isn't neutral.


He's saying the BBC has its ideology but can't be compared with RT. I don't think O'Hagan even necessarily disagrees with him. He wouldn't be this much of a cunt with LP or Molly.


----------



## treelover (Jul 18, 2014)

much too time on her hands...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2014)

I think that he was probably doing an immediate response to her _ I'm not defending rt but..._  defence of rt


----------



## treelover (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's all kicking off





Mates falling out.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I don't think there's enough in Ellie's original statement to just call "rubbish", the BBC isn't neutral.


the power of meaningful debate on twitter


----------



## Favelado (Jul 18, 2014)

ska invita said:


> the power of meaningful debate on twitter



I know you are, you said you are, you can't say it back.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 18, 2014)

#ButWhatAmI?


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2014)

*block*


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 18, 2014)

is there a good analysis of RT anywhere?  i keep getting people posting RT stuff uncritically and i wondered if there was something i could pass them to indicate the dodginess of the source.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yuck




Yup. Total partiality.  It "cheapens" dead kids to shroud their coffins with HAMAS flags, but not dead Israelis with the state of Israel's flag.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2014)

Rural said:


> But their deaths r political.  And their lives were cheap. Isn't this relevant?  What's the point of mentioning them otherwise?



Bear in mind that in the minds (or at least what passes for them after editorial prejudice is asserted), Palestinians and Israelis are equal in their suffering, and one Palestinian "rocket" is so powerful that it needs to be replied to with a thousand Israeli rockets.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2014)

captainmission said:


> Being such an impartially BBC journalist i'm sure she made the same criticism of Israel.



Fat Benny is used to using the flag-shrouded corpses of others to further his political career.  Most of his early progress was made off the back of his deceased "military hero" brother.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 18, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fat Benny is used to using the flag-shrouded corpses of others to further his political career.  Most of his early progress was made off the back of his deceased "military hero" brother.



That would be Jonathon Netanyahu, killed while leading the commando raid on Entebbe in the late 1970's if I remember rightly.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> That would be Jonathon Netanyahu, killed while leading the commando raid on Entebbe in the late 1970's if I remember rightly.


I bet you remember what automatic weapons they were using.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> That would be Jonathon Netanyahu, killed while leading the commando raid on Entebbe in the late 1970's if I remember rightly.



Yup.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> He wouldn't be this much of a cunt with LP or Molly.



*adopts Gore Vidal voice*  It's because the stakes are so _small_...


----------



## Rural (Jul 18, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> is there a good analysis of RT anywhere?  i keep getting people posting RT stuff uncritically and i wondered if there was something i could pass them to indicate the dodginess of the source.



https://blogs.state.gov/stories/2014/04/29/russia-today-s-disinformation-campaign

http://www.utne.com/media/conspirac...y-anti-american-propaganda.aspx#axzz36vOWaaqt

Here r 2 links I found critical of RT,  tho 1st is on us state blog but written by a past editor of time,  so Idk.  Ikwym about ppl treating rt like it's the absolute unquestionable truth cos it's a different pov to msm in the west.  I don't think it's as simple as that.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 19, 2014)

ta


----------



## Limerick Red (Jul 20, 2014)

There is very good stuff on RT, their coverage of even minor protests is quite comprehensive. Once your aware that their sole editorial purpose is to embarrass and highlight discontent in Western Europe. It's a propaganda channel the same as all news channels are, don't think it's any better or worse than the rest ...it is more enjoyable though!


----------



## Rural (Jul 20, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> There is very good stuff on RT, their coverage of even minor protests is quite comprehensive. Once your aware that their sole editorial purpose is to embarrass and highlight discontent in Western Europe. It's a propaganda channel the same as all news channels are, don't think it's any better or worse than the rest ...it is more enjoyable though!


It is a refreshing alternative to msm &the murdochtopia we have to hear the rest of the time


----------



## J Ed (Jul 20, 2014)

Apparently trolls are being mean about Laurie Penny's book...

Laurie Penny characterises the criticism of the book as sexist, and a brief glance at Amazon confirms that. Clearly this sort of behaviour is totally unacceptable and needs to be dealt with.

However, the mercenary way in which Laurie Penny is happy to _monetize_ these attacks as an opportunity is just breath taking.

This is seriously what she recommends people do in response



> -Firstly, you could buy the book! Or pre-order it, if you’re in the USA. I wouldn’t normally ask this so directly, but it’d be fantastic to see this latest bit of sexist sabotage massively backfire. If you’d prefer not to use Amazon, you can support your local independent bookshop here.
> [ETA: Only if you can afford it! I've just had someone tell me they've ordered it despite not being paid till next week, and that is extremely kind but not necessary. You could...I don't know...borrow a copy and then post a review. Thanks. ILU.]



I wonder if Penny is going to offer to send a book for free to the wageless follower who bought it, god knows she could afford it.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 20, 2014)

This is a nice piece of (I believe it's called) _humblebrag :

I am sick of this bullshit. Criticism is one thing – and the book has received its fair share of that from writers who think it’s too personal, too politically strident, too left-wing, too queer or too dark, as well as rave reviews from critics who love it for precisely the same reasons.
_
Too political for 'em! They couldn't handle her pitch-black truthbombs! The squares!


----------



## rekil (Jul 20, 2014)

The spamming is pathetic, is that holborn loon behind it? It seems to be a follow on from the pasting she got for claiming to be too sick to go to the Gaza demo (but not too sick to stay in and write 'epic articles'). Mind you, loads of the 5 star 2 line 'reviews' are from blank profile people who haven't reviewed anything else.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 20, 2014)

copliker said:


> The spamming is pathetic, is that holborn loon behind it? It seems to be a follow on from the pasting she got for claiming to be too sick to go to the Gaza demo (but not too sick to stay in and write 'epic articles'). Mind you, loads of the 5 star 2 line 'reviews' are from blank profile people who haven't reviewed anything else.
> 
> View attachment 57979



Ugh. If you're actually too ill to go, then fair enough, don't go. But don't tweet about your not going in a passive-aggressive manner. Yesterday it was fucking_ pouring _rain and I have a stinking cold and tendonitis in my shoulder but I still drove through to Glasgow to our demo and stood in the pissing rain for an hour or two to make my point. I'm not blogging about it or expecting a medal for my efforts or anything. I don't want to say she invites it because clearly no-one should get that kind of abuse just because they're female but truly she does not help herself sometimes.


----------



## rekil (Jul 20, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Ugh. If you're actually too ill to go, then fair enough, don't go. But don't tweet about your not going in a passive-aggressive manner. Yesterday it was fucking_ pouring _rain and I have a stinking cold and tendonitis in my shoulder but I still drove through to Glasgow to our demo and stood in the pissing rain for an hour or two to make my point. I'm not blogging about it or expecting a medal for my efforts or anything. I don't want to say she invites it because clearly no-one should get that kind of abuse just because they're female but truly she does not help herself sometimes.


Being ill (or drunk ) affects judgement but no matter how unintentional, it's rather insensitive to juxtapose 'feeling a bit under the weather' with the carnage and psychological toll people are facing in Gaza.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 20, 2014)

copliker said:


> Being ill (or drunk ) affects judgement but no matter how unintentional, it's rather insensitive to juxtapose 'feeling a bit under the weather' with the carnage and psychological toll people are facing in Gaza.


Yes. Crass.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 20, 2014)

And then laurie penny gets harassment like this:


> *Shatners Bassoon* ‏@*JudysJugs*
> Oi @*PennyRed* what you need is a fucking good cock up ya


And that's not even the worst of it. Yes, she may be attention seeking but really deserving of that? I think not.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And then laurie penny gets harassment like this:
> 
> And that's not even the worst of it. Yes, she may be attention seeking but really deserving of that? I think not.



Agreed, absolutely. That kind of thing is inexcusable. It's vile for the sake of being vile. That said, if you try making the point that there's a huge difference between that vileness and legitimate criticism then you may well be met with a blanket accusation of misogyny. I tried to make that point yesterday and got exactly that response. The big problem with accusing any critic or opponent of bigotry on an 'Is it because I'm (insert demographic here)', aside from being a snide and dishonest means to try and stifle even fair comment and solid points raised, is that it instantly cheapens the idea that such bigotry does actually exist and that those suffering it are less likely to be given a fair hearing because legitimate complaints are written off as trying to silence and smear critics.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 20, 2014)

Of course she doesn't deserve that.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jul 20, 2014)

copliker said:


> Classic bit of Oxplaining from BBC journo Julia MacFarlane (variety of elite international private schools etc).



It's just a series of sad events. Best to say 'Isn't it terrible' and move quickly on to the next item.

The convo after that tweet is good btw. The journo asks a critic if they are sure they understood her tweet.


----------



## Rural (Jul 21, 2014)

QUOTE="equationgirl, post: 13283586, member: 17853"]And then laurie penny gets harassment like this:

And that's not even the worst of it. Yes, she may be attention seeking but really deserving of that? I think not.[/QUOTE]
That abuse is vile.  Many women get worse tho,  esp Black women who have a much smaller platform & less supporters than  lp. Yet I don't see the outrage when abuse is directed at non-media fems.  All abuse like that is bad yet some ppl know that they can call the police,  get their abusers arrested (like Caroline criado-perez) while others are not taken seriously/told they provoked it etc


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 21, 2014)

Old Holborn is a nasty and vile prick. Feel sorry for Laurie, she does not deserve this misogynistic harassment. However, it's not fair to ask people to simply buy your book to spite the trolls. Why not simply write positive reviews instead? After all, I'm a little cynical that publishers care that much about one site for reviews, arguably, sales matter more? Hopefully Amazon will remove some of those reviews. People are still spamming the 1-star section.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 21, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Old Holborn is a nasty and vile prick. Feel sorry for Laurie, she does not deserve this misogynistic harassment. However, it's not fair to ask people to simply buy your book to spite the trolls.



Old Holborn is a pretty nasty piece of work, I don't think any objective observer could deny that. Nor is the blatant vileness justifiable. That said, there's an issue of perception about this appeal for positive reviews and trying to drum up book sales. It wouldn't be fair to say that this is either a pre-planned marketing stunt or an opportunistic cash-in trying to monetise the fuss and bother. That said, it could be perceived as being that. The intent may not be cynical, but it could be looked at in that way.

Complaining about blatant harassment is fine, no problems with that at all. But complaining about harassment and then taking on 'By the way, I've got a new book out and will everybody please buy a copy' rather clouds the issue somewhat. Especially when you have somebody of a professed left-wing position using Amazon, with Amazon's considerable reputation for tax dodging and doing their best to eliminate competition by fair means or foul while also treating their own authors all that well.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 21, 2014)

Her book shot up in the Amazon sales, mission accomplished.


----------



## rekil (Jul 21, 2014)

Free publicity anyhoo

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-antisemitic-abuse-over-her-book-9617744.html


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 21, 2014)

The abuse is unjustified and unpleasant but her response makes me a little less sympathetic when the intention was book sales.


----------



## Rural (Jul 21, 2014)

I find it disingenuous how lp conflates buying her book with fighting sexist trolls. Then goes on to say buying her book will help all other women writers (what even the ones u've marginalised?) stand up to trolls.  Buying THEIR books might help them.  Buying LP's is only gonna add to LP's wealth.


----------



## rekil (Jul 21, 2014)

Melissa Benn said:
			
		

> Emotionally, I’m with the Pennys and the Campbells, spirited outsiders who refuse to be bought off with empty dreams of female empowerment. Forty years apart in age, they embody the fantasy of the writer as heroine/rebel, moving from place to place with suitcase and laptop, truthful about the pain that exile from the establishment causes the true nonconformist.


Benn trolling hard.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2014)

'Spirited _outsiders_??'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Benn trolling hard.


It doesn't even make sense - surely the _true nonconformist_ couldn't give a shit about _exile from the establishment_, let alone be _pained_ by it?


----------



## rekil (Jul 21, 2014)

Exiled to Harvard.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Exiled to Harvard.


Basically Guantanamo Bay for commentarians


----------



## rekil (Jul 21, 2014)

Thank you Bennster for reminding me that I've got Carmen Aguirre's Something Fierce: Memoirs of a Revolutionary Daughter on my book pile and it needs reading.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 21, 2014)

Rural said:


> I find it disingenuous how lp conflates buying her book with fighting sexist trolls. Then goes on to say buying her book will help all other women writers (what even the ones u've marginalised?) stand up to trolls.  Buying THEIR books might help them.  Buying LP's is only gonna add to LP's wealth.



It comes across as trying to run with the fox and hunt with the hounds. It's one thing to oppose something you regard as being A Bad Thing, whatever that cause happens to be. It's quite another to decry something you regard as bad while using it to feather your nest at the same time. Ardent pacifists, for example, are pretty unlikely to own shares in Vickers or British Aerospace, while I'm not keen on the Catholic Church's attitude to birth control, I shouldn't think the Pope decries the evils of contraception while getting a share dividend form Durex, either. There's an irreconcilable contradiction between wanting to see an end to something while still raking in the cash from that same thing.

It could also be looked at as wither a pre-planned marketing stunt or an opportunistic way to say 'Yes, this isn't a very nice thing that's happening, but if you all send me fourteen pounds then it'll all seem so much less awful.' At best it looks clumsy and opportunistic. At worst it looks cynical, hypocritical and mercenary.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 21, 2014)

copliker said:


> Benn trolling hard.



isn't she trying again to become the 5th generation of House Benn to sit in Her Majesties Parliament?

Outside of society! there waitin for me!


----------



## BigTom (Jul 21, 2014)

weepiper said:


> 'Spirited _outsiders_??'



Insider = actual aristocracy, private school, oxbridge.
Outsider = went to a minor private school and oxbridge. Perhaps the LSE or St Andrews.

I reckon. Not sure where that leaves any of us like.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 21, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I reckon. Not sure where that leaves any of us like.



We are sexists, racists, trolls, dole scum ("I have to work for a living you know") and consumers to market her 'personal ethical brand' to.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Insider = actual aristocracy, private school, oxbridge.
> Outsider = went to a minor private school and oxbridge. Perhaps the LSE or St Andrews.
> 
> I reckon. Not sure where that leaves any of us like.


When they say outsider, they mean someone who's outside the privy chamber waiting for a audience. We take outsider to mean someone outside the locked palace gates.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> We are sexists, racists, trolls, dole scum ("I have to work for a living you know") and consumers to market her 'personal ethical brand' to.


Cue some hasty backpeddling after she found out many of us worked more for a living than she did. Good times.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Apparently trolls are being mean about Laurie Penny's book...
> 
> Laurie Penny characterises the criticism of the book as sexist, and a brief glance at Amazon confirms that. Clearly this sort of behaviour is totally unacceptable and needs to be dealt with.
> 
> ...



Wow.  Her Amazon stats show 85 five-star ratings, 76 one-star ratings, and absolutely *nothing *in between.  That's what you call dividing opinion.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Wow.  Her Amazon stats show 85 five-star ratings, 76 one-star ratings, and absolutely *nothing *in between.  That's what you call dividing opinion.


Is that better than one single 4 star review that is clearly by yourself?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is that better than one single 4 star review that is clearly by yourself?


She didn't


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She didn't


Oh no, _only one poster_ on here is shameless enough to do such a thing.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is that better than one single 4 star review that is clearly by yourself?



Of course not.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 22, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Wow.  Her Amazon stats show 85 five-star ratings, 76 one-star ratings, and absolutely *nothing *in between.  That's what you call dividing opinion.



Shame that she and her followers aren't as good at spotting the difference between legitimate criticism and misogynist abuse then, isn't it?

http://robertwalshwriter.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/bullying-bigotry-and-book-sales/


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 22, 2014)

I browsed for some anti-Semitic abuse she mentioned and thankfully found none on Twitter. Perhaps it was posted elsewhere.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 22, 2014)

BUY MY BOOK!!


----------



## Rural (Jul 22, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I browsed for some anti-Semitic abuse she mentioned and thankfully found none on Twitter. Perhaps it was posted elsewhere.


What is her fb name?  Maybe it's there.  Really hope she is being truthful this time :/


----------



## fogbat (Jul 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Oh no, _only one poster_ on here is shameless enough to do such a thing.



Only four stars? You have to admire Phil's humility.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 22, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Only four stars? You have to admire Phil's humility.




He comes to us as the son of man, to serve not to lead.


----------



## fogbat (Jul 22, 2014)

Bonathan would have given 5s for sure.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Shame that she and her followers aren't as good at spotting the difference between legitimate criticism and misogynist abuse then, isn't it?
> 
> http://robertwalshwriter.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/bullying-bigotry-and-book-sales/


Great article Bakunin.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Great article Bakunin.



Cheers. Bunged up another today regarding cyberbullying in general.


----------



## fogbat (Jul 22, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Shame that she and her followers aren't as good at spotting the difference between legitimate criticism and misogynist abuse then, isn't it?
> 
> http://robertwalshwriter.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/bullying-bigotry-and-book-sales/



Mansplaining,  clearly.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Cheers. Bunged up another today regarding cyberbullying in general.


Liked that one too, nice work


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Bonathan would have given 5s for sure.



phildwyer is no Bonathan Jizzmop.


----------



## Rural (Jul 23, 2014)

One page of 1* reviews none of which seem like trolling to me.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-rev...?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

Asking her pals to manipulate voting just about sums up her honesty.  Some ppl would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than stand on the ground & tell the truth.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> He comes to us as the son of man, to serve not to lead.



Just don't drink his Kool-aid.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 23, 2014)

James Bloodworth, eh? What a dick. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ary-tourism-than-actual-politics-9604934.html


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 23, 2014)




----------



## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2014)

If people are taunting her because of ill health that's not very nice. Ill health is not something that can be controlled for the most part, although I will say it's hard to be sympathetic when she's such a drama queen.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 23, 2014)

Original [now deleted tweet]:_ "Woke up so sick_ from _heat_ that it _would_ be _extremely stupid_ to _push my body harder_. _So_ I _can't go_ to the _Gaza protest today_. _Feel guilty_."


----------



## weepiper (Jul 23, 2014)




----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jul 23, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> James Bloodworth, eh? What a dick.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ary-tourism-than-actual-politics-9604934.html


"What you are saying has been said before"

This section of his article really narks me (more so than the rest). Virtually everything said today has been said before. 

Something that struck me when reading histories of Rome was that contemporary commentators were as insightful and articulate as any person alive. This doesn't undermine or devalue people speaking up in their own time. Slavery was obviously wrong and had many opponents throughout recorded history, but Lincoln wasn't just a fashionable twat for banging on about it and neither is someone who points out obvious solutions to the I/P conflict (such as treating Palestinians with basic human dignity). Just because it has been repeated (and ignored) doesn't mean it isn't true or constructive.


----------



## benedict (Jul 24, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Original [now deleted tweet]:_ "Woke up so sick_ from _heat_ that it _would_ be _extremely stupid_ to _push my body harder_. _So_ I _can't go_ to the _Gaza protest today_. _Feel guilty_."



There is a growing amount of evidence and allegation for her being oftentimes genuinely deceitful. Very strange pattern of behavior, given she's broadcasting this all to circa 95k Twitter followers.


----------



## toggle (Jul 24, 2014)

benedict said:


> There is a growing amount of evidence and allegation for her being oftentimes genuinely deceitful. Very strange pattern of behavior, given she's broadcasting this all to circa 95k Twitter followers.



i think ti's her attempting to cover up her numerous fuck ups, while she tries to maintain the pretense she has a fucking clue what she's talking about


----------



## toggle (Jul 24, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Great article Bakunin.



it's not bad. 

he's got a couple of bad writing habits that drive me potty when i read them. but he's getting a lot better, and ti's really nice living with a bloke who really gets this stuff all on his own.


----------



## rekil (Jul 24, 2014)

lauriepenny said:
			
		

> The moral basis for Israel’s persecution of the Palestinian people is eroding fast.



Persecution within reason? First that MP and his murderous fantasies, now this. We need to talk about LibDems.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 24, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Mansplaining,  clearly.



Yep, as one of her admirers was keen to point out while telling me to fuck off for stating that online harassment affects everybody and so is everybody's problem, not to be claimed as the property of any single group.



equationgirl said:


> If people are taunting her because of ill health that's not very nice. Ill health is not something that can be controlled for the most part, although I will say it's hard to be sympathetic when she's such a drama queen.



Despite being so ill, she still found time to put out two or three more 'epic articles.



toggle said:


> i think ti's her attempting to cover up her numerous fuck ups, while she tries to maintain the pretense she has a fucking clue what she's talking about



Not with me, she doesn't. Blocked and not a single question acknowledged, let alone answered.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 24, 2014)

toggle said:


> it's not bad.
> 
> he's got a couple of bad writing habits that drive me potty when i read them. but he's getting a lot better, and ti's really nice living with a bloke who really gets this stuff all on his own.


His bad habits are nowhere near as bad as LP's, though!


----------



## toggle (Jul 24, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> His bad habits are nowhere near as bad as LP's, though!



true, he's not a whiney little shit. and he does try to use his expereinces to actually say something, rather than just self publicise.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 25, 2014)

Jewish voices opposed to the current conflict in Gaza are indeed important voices, so I do find little to disagree with in this piece. However this part did make me chuckle:



> Last weekend, hundreds of thousands of men, women and children around the world marched to express their disgust at Israel’s air and ground assault on the Gaza Strip, and among them were swathes of Jews and Israelis. This is one of the few situations in which it makes a difference to stand up and say: not in our name. Not now, not ever again. Being Jewish, or having Jewish roots, doesn’t make you responsible for what is happening in Gaza, but it does mean that your dissent carries that much more weight.



Too sick to protest but happy to tweet about it. I guess it's easier to sit back and let others risk it more when protesting. 

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-a...tensifies-it-not-anti-semitic-say-not-my-name


----------



## Rural (Jul 27, 2014)

At least her taxi stopped & Ryan Gosling wasn't required to drag lp out the way 

Lp on Twitter: 

"Once in London a taxi stopped right next to me on the street and @andrejapejic got out. For a second I saw an angel, in a leopardprint coat. "


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 27, 2014)

This is pretty disingenuous considering she's an editor for the site (and not disclosed it).


----------



## J Ed (Jul 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> This is pretty disingenuous considering she's an editor for the site (and not disclosed it).




Help save the endangered private schoolers! Donate now!


----------



## killer b (Jul 27, 2014)

I read and enjoyed some essays on TNI recently. I felt conflicted.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 27, 2014)

They should fund raise by auctioning off the rights to punch Malcolm Harris in his smug face


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 27, 2014)

was harris the one with certain _interests_?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 27, 2014)

They don't call him rolf for nothing.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> was harris the one with certain _interests_?



Yes the one who says pro-nonce stuff, also condemned the Chicago teacher strike on the basis that teachers play the same social role as prison guards.  Pure scum


----------



## rekil (Jul 27, 2014)

I read somewhere that TNI pays $50 per article. Rachel Rosenfelt went to Barnard College, $44k a year - the most selective school in the US according to wiki - her da isn't short of a few bob.

More weird attacks on anti-humantrafficking orgs the other day, from Crabapple this time.


----------



## Rural (Jul 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> I read somewhere that TNI pays $50 per article. Rachel Rosenfelt went to Barnard College, $44k a year - the most selective school in the US according to wiki - her da isn't short of a few bob.
> 
> More weird attacks on anti-humantrafficking orgs the other day, from Crabapple this time.


I read that as more attacks on trafficking orgs... from anti-human Crabapple


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 28, 2014)

copliker said:


> I read somewhere that TNI pays $50 per article. Rachel Rosenfelt went to Barnard College, $44k a year - the most selective school in the US according to wiki - her da isn't short of a few bob.
> 
> More weird attacks on anti-humantrafficking orgs the other day, from Crabapple this time.


She who doesn't believe in diversity remember. It's framed as 'I believe in talent' but let's face it, it's all about hiring people like her and her class i.e. LP.


----------



## treelover (Jul 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> James Bloodworth, eh? What a dick.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/arguments-about-israel-and-palestine-have-more-to-do-with-the-fashion-for-revolutionary-tourism-than-actual-politics-9604934.html




Be good if you could post why he is a dick, the level of obsession with I/P is intense, the killing in Syria is much more, and yes who is marching against ISIS?, the numbers of demos far outweighing those for the thousands who have died, some at their own hand as a consequence of the benefit cuts, I'm not saying what is happening in Palestine isn't obscene, but I do think its worth exploring why amongst radicals and the liberal left it is the central cause of the decade.

in terms of obsession I used to be one of them but what can we do here.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 28, 2014)

Bloodworth: Labour should cut its ties with the illiberal Henry Jackson Society (2013)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/20/labour-cut-ties-henry-jackson-society

Bloodworth speaks at a Henry Jackson Society event (2014): http://henryjacksonsociety.org/2014...der-parties-assessing-the-european-elections/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Help save the endangered private schoolers! Donate now!



Well, I shouldn't really, as it's against my principles, but I have been saving up my earwax for a couple of years...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2014)

double post


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> was harris the one with certain _interests_?



The man who thinks that once cheerleaders have left junior high, they're too old to watch.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 28, 2014)

.

edit wrong bloke


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> This is pretty disingenuous considering she's an editor for the site (and not disclosed it).




Disingenuous would a fair description. Nothing wrong with a publication fund-raising if need be, but it should be disclosed.


----------



## chilango (Jul 28, 2014)

Is lauriepenny doing anything anymore deserving of the focus she retains on this thread?

She seems to have stopped, or at least toned down, the anarchist/radical left pose which was always my main beef with her.

She appears to have moved on to other more fertile pastures, which have nowt to do with me.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but might be worth letting Laurie get on with it and focus on those closer to home as it were...


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 28, 2014)

She's off to Harvard now so I'm sure we won't be hearing from her for a good while anyway. She will likely return in some future guise. But she won't be short of political allies across the pond:


*Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed* Jul 26
In exactly three weeks I'll be getting on the plane to Cambridge, MA. Leaving England and my job for a whole year to go Back To College.
 





 *Louise Mensch* ‏@*LouiseMensch* Jul 26
@*PennyRed* how exciting. Staying at Harvard?
*Details Expand Collapse *
 

Follow Following Unfollow Blocked Unblock Pending Cancel


 *Laurie PennyVerified account *‏@*PennyRed*  Jul 26
@*LouiseMensch* fellowship at Harvard, yep. Really exciting!


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Bloodworth: Labour should cut its ties with the illiberal Henry Jackson Society (2013)
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/20/labour-cut-ties-henry-jackson-society
> 
> Bloodworth speaks at a Henry Jackson Society event (2014): http://henryjacksonsociety.org/2014...der-parties-assessing-the-european-elections/


Bloodworth is a total dick. He once blocked me for daring to ask what the point of "demonstrating against Islamic extremism" was, and what form it would it take.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 28, 2014)

he also has a very guardian face.


----------



## rekil (Jul 28, 2014)

That's the one we caught plagiarising.


----------



## treelover (Jul 28, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> She's off to Harvard now so I'm sure we won't be hearing from her for a good while anyway. She will likely return in some future guise. But she won't be short of political allies across the pond:
> 
> 
> *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed* Jul 26
> ...




She is conversing with Mensch!


----------



## treelover (Jul 28, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> Bloodworth is a total dick. He once blocked me for daring to ask what the point of "demonstrating against Islamic extremism" was, and what form it would it take.



There are people who go on protests at the drop of the hat, yet won't demonstrate against the Islamists, maybe they should and the public would take them more seriously, why shouldn't there be protests against the Mullahs who shout 'all gays should go to hell"(which to them is a literal proposition) etc and propagandists.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> There are people who go on protests at the drop of the hat, yet won't demonstrate against the Islamists, maybe they should and the public would take them more seriously, why shouldn't there be protests against the Mullahs who shout 'all gays should go to hell"(which to them is a literal proposition) etc and propagandists.


You done any of that?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> There are people who go on protests at the drop of the hat, yet won't demonstrate against the Islamists, maybe they should and the public would take them more seriously, why shouldn't there be protests against the Mullahs who shout 'all gays should go to hell"(which to them is a literal proposition) etc and propagandists.



Because I'm not a populist who goes on pointless protests just to prove to "the public" that I'm being even-handed. Islamic extremism is already opposed by the government, the security forces, the newspapers and basically the entire establishment, so what's the purpose of my protest? Who am I trying to influence/affect?

Also, what exact form is my protest supposed to take? A generic A to B march through the city where I denounce islamic extremism? If I announced that it would inevitably attract lots of racists, with lots of racist banners and generally look like an intimidating mass demonstration that made no differentiation between the vast majority of peaceful muslims and the people I'm supposedly targeting. Or would you prefer a march on a specific Mosque? Good luck with that, a bunch of white people marching on a Mosque to shout at the worshippers...

So, in short, impractical, pointless, reinforcing a load of racist stuff I abhor. Lots of reasons not to do it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> She is conversing with Mensch!


She's been conversing with Mensch for ages, on and off.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 28, 2014)

including on air when she's meant to be the token opposition


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 29, 2014)

you can't alienate someone you might need something from at some point in your career.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You done any of that?



has he bollocks!


----------



## treelover (Jul 29, 2014)

Actually I've interceded on STW protests etc a number of times, once blocking a propagandists loudhailer, while he was giving it , "Palestine from the river to the sea", snatching anti-Semitic literature off other fanatics, robustly challenging the MAB at meetings, not many others did.

why do you assume everyone is as spineless?


----------



## killer b (Jul 29, 2014)

is 'from the river to the sea Palestine will be free' a contentious slogan?


----------



## killer b (Jul 29, 2014)

(other than with cunts, I mean)


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> Actually I've interceded on STW protests etc a number of times, once blocking a propagandists loudhailer, while he was giving it , "Palestine from the river to the sea", snatching anti-Semitic literature off other fanatics, robustly challenging the MAB at meetings, not many others did.
> 
> why do you assume everyone is as spineless?


Have you organised any anti-fundie protests? That's what you were proposing? What wheels have you out in motion to do this?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2014)

killer b said:


> is 'from the river to the sea Palestine will be free' a contentious slogan?


It can be depending on context. I don't like it myself.


----------



## treelover (Jul 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Have you organised any anti-fundie protests? That's what you were proposing? What wheels have you out in motion to do this?



I've told you I don't do anything other than post on here.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2014)

So when you replied to el-ahrairah's laughing at the suggestion that you did any of the things you demand that others do by huffily insisting that _actually _you did, you were knowingly bullshitting?


----------



## treelover (Jul 29, 2014)

I mentioned the things I have done in the past.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> I mentioned the things I have done in the past.


None of which were the things you demanded that others do and that el-ahrairah was laughing at the suggestion of you _actually _doing them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 29, 2014)

killer b said:


> is 'from the river to the sea Palestine will be free' a contentious slogan?




I think people can draw the inference from it that israelis must all be driven into the sea. Not sure tho.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jul 29, 2014)

Did we ever discuss this?

Edit: not endorsing this bloke, not had time to research further, just never remember it coming up before


----------



## muscovyduck (Jul 29, 2014)

Anyway yeah see I'd like to believe that someone using the word feminist as an insult is talking bollocks but Laurie has a track record for talking bollocks herself. I guess it's a good example of where her kind of 'activism' gets everyone but then both of them seem so irrelevant I don't care. Dunno why I brought it up really


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 30, 2014)

it's pathological innit.  she can't stop herself.

that bloke is such a prick though.  he really needs to get trapped in a slurry pit.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 30, 2014)

"the growing problem of serial monogamy"

-----

where i come from, it's not nice to call someone's relationship status a 'problem', if it's not hurting anyone else.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 30, 2014)

statesman on the burning issue occupying everyones minds.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 30, 2014)

"I conducted an anonymous online survey as research for my show asking what behaviours would be considered infidelity. 73 out of 100 respondents thought that falling in love with someone else with no sexual contact still counted, 31 per cent selected staying up all night talking to someone else, while a scary 7 per cent decided that merely thinking about someone else was unacceptable. How you would police this I don’t know."
http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/07/isn-t-it-time-we-admitted-we-re-all-bit-polyamorous

Very scientific.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 30, 2014)

I know someone who thinks pornography is akin to cheating. She wasn't even thrilled to hear that her bf *gasp* has a bash now and then, to the bank. Thats a bit much imo.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 30, 2014)

"Many anonymous poll responses of support".

I think she has an odd view of what serial monogamy is. "Policing" is not an appropriate word for my relationships.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 30, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "Policing" is not an appropriate word for my relationships.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 30, 2014)

Whatever turns you on DaveCinzano


----------



## Rural (Jul 30, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> View attachment 58623
> 
> "the growing problem of serial monogamy"
> 
> ...


Why do they have to talk about relationships j in terms of "currencies"? Hate the way everything is put in these terms. 

Also the stuff about poly women being booked up months in advance & having exciting complicated lives,  I bet I could b poly & manage to b as undesirable a partner as I am as a mono or stereo or whatever I am idk


----------



## agricola (Jul 30, 2014)

Rural said:


> Why do they have to talk about relationships j in terms of "currencies"? Hate the way everything is put in these terms.
> 
> Also the stuff about poly women being booked up months in advance & having exciting complicated lives,  I bet I could b poly & manage to b as undesirable a partner as I am as a mono or stereo or whatever I am idk



One of the side-effects of monetization, one would imagine.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 30, 2014)

Rural said:


> Why do they have to talk about relationships j in terms of "currencies"? Hate the way everything is put in these terms.
> 
> Also the stuff about poly women being booked up months in advance & having exciting complicated lives



That's what I hate about this. The implication that if you just happen to be a one-at-a-time kind of person you must be dull, uninteresting and generally to be pitied.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2014)

It's childish _hey everyone i had sex  _crap. Juvenile.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 30, 2014)

its a bit more to it than that imo, the implication being that if you don't do poly you're staid and not like the exciting boundry pushers. And tellingly for a supposed left radical journal it completely lifestyles dissent. We're free and you aren't.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's childish _hey everyone i had sex  _crap. Juvenile.




innit.  don't most people grow out of that before they actually have sex?


----------



## Belushi (Jul 30, 2014)

She also has a very rosey view of polyamory. That's not to say poly relationships can't work well, but the notion that they are less complicated than monogamous ones is just..


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> Did we ever discuss this?
> 
> Edit: not endorsing this bloke, not had time to research further, just never remember it coming up before


That article rings a bell, and if she had misrepresented him then a) that's not a surprise given her form and b) it's sloppy journalism which plays into the hands of people like him.

The comments are something special though.


----------



## Theisticle (Jul 30, 2014)

Who could forget this gem from Penny last year:



> Of course, polyamory isn't always political. People do it for all sorts of reasons, from grand ethical statements to boredom – managing the drama of multiple relationships is a great way to kill time on a Sunday afternoon. Personally, I started practising non-monogamy in my early 20s as a statement against the tyranny of the heterosexual couple form and the patriarchal nuclear family – but then again, I did a lot of silly things for similar reasons in my early 20s. If you'd asked 21-year-old me why precisely I was hanging half-naked out of a fourth-floor window on Holloway Road, I'd probably also have answered "as a statement against the tyranny of the heterosexual couple form". Nowadays, from the wise and serious vantage point of my mid-20s, I practice non-monogamy because it works for me. It doesn't work for everyone, and I might not choose it forever.



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/20/polyamorous-shows-no-traditional-way-live


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That article rings a bell, and if she had misrepresented him then a) that's not a surprise given her form and b) it's sloppy journalism which plays into the hands of people like him.
> 
> The comments are something special though.



It's quite an effort to look past the hyperbole and very obvious agenda but, I'd have to admit, his allegations of being misrepresented are unusually detailed for somebody trying to discredit a hack. Normally they just come out with 'I didn't say that' or 'That's not what I meant at all' but this chap is picking precise parts that he claims are misrepresentative. There are also a lot of individual points that he takes issue with, and all within a single paragraph. Picking apart the entire piece (assuming he's 100% accurate) would likely bring up more little nuggets based on the single paragraph he complaining about.

I also think we should be a little careful about discussing this piece, seeing as he states at the end that he's considering a defamation suit. I'd also be very interested in seeing her answer these accusations, but I'm not holding my breath on that score.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 30, 2014)

what it means if she lied is that Laurie sees being homeless or unemployed as legitimate points of attack, that's how she smears someone, they're a pov, don't listen to them


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 30, 2014)

smokedout said:


> ...Laurie sees being homeless or unemployed as legitimate points of attack...



Except when it pays better - politically or professionally - to paint oneself as either (or both). Just think of the spokes on the wheel of oppression as Pokémon - gotta catch 'em all!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> It's quite an effort to look past the hyperbole and very obvious agenda but, I'd have to admit, his allegations of being misrepresented are unusually detailed for somebody trying to discredit a hack. Normally they just come out with 'I didn't say that' or 'That's not what I meant at all' but this chap is picking precise parts that he claims are misrepresentative. There are also a lot of individual points that he takes issue with, and all within a single paragraph. Picking apart the entire piece (assuming he's 100% accurate) would likely bring up more little nuggets based on the single paragraph he complaining about.
> 
> I also think we should be a little careful about discussing this piece, seeing as he states at the end that he's considering a defamation suit. I'd also be very interested in seeing her answer these accusations, but I'm not holding my breath on that score.


I had a bit of a look but I couldn't see a response from her.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Except when it pays better - politically or professionally - to paint oneself as either (or both). Just think of the spokes on the wheel of oppression as Pokémon - gotta catch 'em all!


Which we know she has done from her tweets - wasn't there one recently about her being homeless in London when in fact she'd missed the last tube to Heathrow and just couldn't be arsed going back home?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Which we know she has done from her tweets - wasn't there one recently about her being homeless in London when in fact she'd missed the last tube to Heathrow and just couldn't be arsed going back home?


A _little bit homeless_ - she _knows our pain_!


----------



## weepiper (Jul 30, 2014)

Pretending to be homeless because you've missed your tube is a little bit communism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 30, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Pretending to be homeless because you've missed your tube is a little bit communism.


It's Temporary Autonomous Not Zone 6


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That article rings a bell, and if she had misrepresented him then a) that's not a surprise given her form and b) it's sloppy journalism which plays into the hands of people like him.
> 
> The comments are something special though.



Sure are! This was a particular favourite:

"In her facile article Laurie Penny said this, ‘Feminism, for instance, is not in reality a strategy cooked up by left-wing women so we can take all of men’s power and money for ourselves and turn them into sex slaves.’ Err. Actually it is – just precisely that."

...Doesn't sound too bad to me tbf, I for one will welcome our new overlords (-ladies?)... Bring on the gynocracy!


----------



## toggle (Jul 31, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Sure are! This was a particular favourite:
> 
> "In her facile article Laurie Penny said this, ‘Feminism, for instance, is not in reality a strategy cooked up by left-wing women so we can take all of men’s power and money for ourselves and turn them into sex slaves.’ Err. Actually it is – just precisely that."
> 
> ...Doesn't sound too bad to me tbf, I for one will welcome our new overlords (-ladies?)... Bring on the gynocracy!



I'm getting sex slaves?

I need to go have another look at the handbook, I must have missed that bit.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 31, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Which we know she has done from her tweets - wasn't there one recently about her being homeless in London when in fact she'd missed the last tube to Heathrow and just couldn't be arsed going back home?


I was a shepherd in a nativity play once. I hope you aren't denying the authenticity of my experience?


----------



## Rural (Jul 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's childish _hey everyone i had sex  _crap. Juvenile.


It's what glosswitch called "smugsexual" on Twitter which caused several meltdowns


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I was a shepherd in a nativity play once. I hope you aren't denying the authenticity of my experience?



Don't try to lie - You were the back end of a sheep. And being from Heywood _christ_ knows what was done to you.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Who could forget this gem from Penny last year:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/20/polyamorous-shows-no-traditional-way-live





> precariously employed young queer people from Sheffield.



I don't even know why but that's tickled me.


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 31, 2014)

toggle said:


> I'm getting sex slaves?
> 
> I need to go have another look at the handbook, I must have missed that bit.



Yeah, I think our commentor has told us more about himself than about feminism with that one tbf


----------



## toggle (Jul 31, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yeah, I think our commentor has told us more about himself than about feminism with that one tbf


pass the mindbleach please.


----------



## co-op (Jul 31, 2014)

killer b said:


> is 'from the river to the sea Palestine will be free' a contentious slogan?



The implication that "the jews" - Israelis, whatever - should be driven into the sea seems pretty clear to me. Even if the slogan is unspecific; there's a mealy-mouthed nod-nod-wink-wink element to that which just makes it sound dodgier to me personally.

Given the regularity with which the whole "anti-semitic" trope is wheeled out in defence of the [victimised jews and their only defender, the] Zionist regime it's always best to play safe imo. Losing the moral high ground in a propaganda war with Zionists is an impressive example of shooting yerself in the foot.


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2014)

ok. I thought it was just a call for a return to the pre-1967 borders.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 31, 2014)

killer b said:


> ok. I thought it was just a call for a return to the pre-1967 borders.


1967 Palestine stretches from the River to Jerusalem, then has a big slice of Israel in the Middle before we get to Gaza and the Sea.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jul 31, 2014)

Of course, since the facts on the ground have changed there's no plausible possibility of a 2-state solution now anyway, so the distinction makes little sense...


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2014)

you're right. pre 1945 then, which basically means the eradication of Israel altogether. I understand why it might be a little contentious now...


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 31, 2014)

I wonder what the average gazan's stance on polyamory is. I think we should know the answer to this question before we give them our #solidarity


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

the author of the polyamory article has come onto the facebook thread to defend it.  it is as hilarious and tragic and wrong-headed as you might imagine.  it looks like they've got laurie's replacement perfectly chosen.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2014)

i


el-ahrairah said:


> the author of the polyamory article has come onto the facebook thread to defend it.  it is as hilarious and tragic and wrong-headed as you might imagine.  it looks like they've got laurie's replacement perfectly chosen.




don't be shy, give us a C+P of the choicest things to mock.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

1. the "if you don't agree with me you're a bad person" combined with the "words only mean what i think they mean not what you think they mean"


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

2. the "you didn't understand me" combined with the "i'm really clever and know more than you"


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

3.  the "ignoring a serious question"


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2014)

wtf? So having friends is polyamory?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

4. the "i know you are but what am i"


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

5. the "numerous PMs of support"


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2014)

killer b said:


> wtf? So having friends is polyamory?


Liking them certainly is. What a wretched example of _heads i win tails you lose_ arguing.

edit: she's now doing the same with love and romantic. Is she fucking 16?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

6. the "like, what does anything even mean" combined with the "show off" combined with some identity pigeonholing combined with the friend popping in to give a half-hearted boost with a return to the "like, what does anything even mean".

i'm bored of this now, but there you are...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> View attachment 58717
> 
> 5. the "numerous PMs of support"


Always an argument winner


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2014)

So, in  brief an extended run through many examples  of the etymological fallacy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

she is, apparently, a stand-up comedian.  it looks like she's quite popular and credible, but i'm a bit of a Lletsa when it comes to popular culture.  if there isn't a thread about them on here, or they don't make it into the Metro's pages about celebs falling out of their clothes, then i don't really know.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> she is, apparently, a stand-up comedian.



I intuit a slight roadblock on this particular career path.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

her wikipedia page calls her the lesbian Eddie Izzard.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 31, 2014)

We haven't had a real life commentaritwat on here for a while, someone see if they can tempt her over


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I intuit a slight roadblock on this particular career path.


 
"In 2007, she reached the final of the Leicester Mercury Comedian of the Year"


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2014)

Urban75 poster, revolutionary socialist and ethical personal brand builder Laurie Penny has an op-ed in the New York Times. Take that h8rs


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 31, 2014)

We're back to "stretching the meaning of a word to make your fairly ordinary life seem more interesting".

Previously seen with "genderqueer" meaning anything from transsexual to "I'm a bloke that once wore a bit of eyeliner".


----------



## cesare (Jul 31, 2014)

Suzanne Moore's going to be writing a weekly memoir column in the NS back pages from Sept. Is someone leaving


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2014)

> “Hurt people hurt people” is not supposed to be a political program. That victims of child abuse often grow up to replicate that abuse, to become bullies or tyrants or covert sexual predators, has long been understood as a human tragedy. *Only in Britain does it seem to have been the intrinsic psychology at the dark heart of the governing elite.*


O rly?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2014)

Oh yes. Def only here. Some sort of unique gene or something unrelated to power and inertia and privilege. It wouldn't make an appearance in say a universal church or something.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

copliker said:


> Urban75 poster, revolutionary socialist and ethical personal brand builder Laurie Penny has an op-ed in the New York Times. Take that h8rs


 
and outsider. don't forget outsider.


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2014)

"The boy Dutroux will be disappointed with that" - Andy Townsend


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> and outsider. don't forget outsider.


The circle is complete







/threadwin


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 31, 2014)

In all the reporting on the gaza conflict I think the otherkin perspective is being erased.


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> In all the reporting on the gaza conflict I think the otherkin perspective is being erased.


It's an intersectionality nightmare. Palestinians are POCs, no question, but an IDF soldier of ethiopian origin was killed the other day and Israel is way more QUILTBAG friendly. It all sort of evens out really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's an intersectionality nightmare. Palestinians are POCs, no question, but an IDF soldier of ethiopian origin was killed the other day and Israel is way more QUILTBAG friendly. It all sort of evens out really.


more quiltbag friendly? tell you what, you get a couple of quiltbag types - as long as one of them's palestinian and the other a jew from the zionist entity - walk them down the front in tel aviv and then tell me they're more quiltbag friendly and it sort of evens out.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 31, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's an intersectionality nightmare. Palestinians are POCs, no question, but an IDF soldier of ethiopian origin was killed the other day and Israel is way more QUILTBAG friendly. It all sort of evens out really.



Saw an intersectional feminist on twitter defending the fact she'd gone on a birthright tour of Israel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Saw an intersectional feminist on twitter defending the fact she'd gone on a birthright tour of Israel.


this was a voluntary thing, right? she should check her privilege.


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Saw an intersectional feminist on twitter defending the fact she'd gone on a birthright tour of Israel.


A jump off point to demand that gaza strip males check their unexamined privilege.


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> more quiltbag friendly? tell you what, you get a couple of quiltbag types - as long as one of them's palestinian and the other a jew from the zionist entity - walk them down the front in tel aviv and then tell me they're more quiltbag friendly and it sort of evens out.


The PD Priv-Off app will sort this kind of thing out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2014)

copliker said:


> The PD Priv-Off app will sort this kind of thing out.


yes. hierarchy. good.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> View attachment 58718
> 
> 6. the "like, what does anything even mean" combined with the "show off" combined with some identity pigeonholing combined with the friend popping in to give a half-hearted boost with a return to the "like, what does anything even mean".
> 
> i'm bored of this now, but there you are...



thanks rabbit cultural-spirit thats made me facepalm and groan, but also chuckle at the absurdity


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 31, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's an intersectionality nightmare. Palestinians are POCs, no question, but an IDF soldier of ethiopian origin was killed the other day and Israel is way more QUILTBAG friendly. It all sort of evens out really.


 





  vs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*spins the wheel of oppression*


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2014)

Excellent c&p work by the way el-ahrairah


----------



## Rural (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> O rly?


I really hate the way this argument feeds into the self-hatred survivors of abuse often feel.  It seems like a way of blaming more victims,  adding to the guilt they already have dumped on them.  Because a section of abuse survivors are brought up in an environment where the abuse is so normalised & all-encompassing that they carry on this pattern as adults,  does not mean at all that most abuse survivors go on to abuse. Seems to me a way of focusing blame on the victims rather than looking at who the abusers are.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Urban75 poster, revolutionary socialist and ethical personal brand builder Laurie Penny has an op-ed in the New York Times. Take that h8rs





el-ahrairah said:


> and outsider. don't forget outsider.



Don't forget anarchist, Lib Dem supporter, Labour supporter, feminist, journalist, TV commentator, author and anything else that might cross off another box in Bullshit Bingo.

A few more demographics and she'll win a carriage clock and some ornamental crystal tumblers.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> View attachment 58718





> ...polyamory - from the Greek ‘many loves’...


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 1, 2014)

Laurie Penny, Helen Lewis, and Mary Beard podcast for 'Outspoken Women' aka Oxbridge Mafia: https://audioboo.fm/boos/2364277-th...urie-penny-and-helen-lewis-on-outspoken-women


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

do they explain why it is that, for women certainly, being Outspoken and being Oxbridge educated are interchangable terms and what that says about our society?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> O rly?



What fucks me off in that paragraph is "...victims of child abuse often grow up to replicate that abuse".
"Often", Laurie?  No, you daft twat, a minority of the abused will become abusers.  Why not get your "facts" from actual psychological research on the matter, rather than plucking them out of your wiberal arse?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> I really hate the way this argument feeds into the self-hatred survivors of abuse often feel.  It seems like a way of blaming more victims,  adding to the guilt they already have dumped on them.  Because a section of abuse survivors are brought up in an environment where the abuse is so normalised & all-encompassing that they carry on this pattern as adults,  does not mean at all that most abuse survivors go on to abuse. Seems to me a way of focusing blame on the victims rather than looking at who the abusers are.



It doesn't mean that they even "often" go on to become abusers, as La Pennionara claims.  She certainly wins "dumb fucker of the month" for that particular morsel of received wisdom bullshit.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 1, 2014)

loads of tweets today asking why people don't identify themselves as cis or trans etc. surely most trans people face far more serious issues than this? and im getting really annoyed by this self indulgent wank when kids are dying in gaza


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> loads of tweets today asking why people don't identify themselves as cis or trans etc. surely most trans people face far more serious issues than this? and im getting really annoyed by this self indulgent wank when kids are dying in gaza


Cis kids or trans kids?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2014)

You MUST identify by things that i find important.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 1, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cis kids or trans kids?



who cares?


----------



## Rural (Aug 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It doesn't mean that they even "often" go on to become abusers, as La Pennionara claims.  She certainly wins "dumb fucker of the month" for that particular morsel of received wisdom bullshit.


I find it hard to think lp has a levels at times,  let alone a degree from Oxford or Cambridge.  Surely she's capable of a little critical thinking/fact checking?  Or does she just say anything that sounds populist?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It doesn't mean that they even "often" go on to become abusers, as La Pennionara claims.  She certainly wins "dumb fucker of the month" for that particular morsel of received wisdom bullshit.



If you've been abused then the "common sense" idea that you are likely to go on to become an abuser yourself really isn't going to help you come to terms with it.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 1, 2014)

Christ, 11 minutes into that NS podcast, Penny is already conflating disgusting misogyny with actual critique of her writing.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 1, 2014)

Wow... another NS writer.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

that is very telling - without the context i can only assume the following may be true.

1. identifying as a oppressed minority doesn't mean that you are one.
2. identifying as a oppressed minority doesn't mean that you aren't a prick.
3. you don't get to decide your identify, _they do_.
4. no matter what oppression you've got, _they are more oppressed than you_.
5. unless a person says they are cis, they are not.  unless a person says they are trans, they are not.  some trans people identify as cis, some cis people identify as trans.  this is _your _problem.  you must always use the correct term as decided by a jury of people who think that using the right pronoun is more important than whether or not you're an exploiter of the working classes.


----------



## Sue (Aug 1, 2014)

(((Eyeliner)))


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2014)

no wonder the statesmen is so dire.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Wow... another NS writer.


Don't go _there _then.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 1, 2014)

Here TL is a complete shitshow: https://twitter.com/CCriadoPerez

Clear transphobe.


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Urban75 poster, revolutionary socialist and ethical personal brand builder Laurie Penny has an op-ed in the New York Times. Take that h8rs



She's on her way up..


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 1, 2014)

treelover said:


> She's on her way up..


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> O rly?




Not in Belgium then where hundreds of thousands marched because they knew this went much deeper than just Mark Dutroux.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

actually, reading some of that twitter shitstorm, my further relections are that this just shows the problems with identity politics - she is trying to use the language of identity politics to defend her apparently valid criticism of another area of identity politics.  she's trying to square a circle here and it can't be done.  in the end she will find that her feminist politics make her transphobic, or her trans-friendly politics undermine her feminist analysis.  using the wrong tools will fuck up the job.


i don;t think i explained that well.  but my point is that identity politics isn't a good way of doing things.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2014)

Nope, the first bit was very clear and well put.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 1, 2014)

She's just trying to turn 'cis' into a slur when it's not. 

E.g.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

Cis is used as a slur though, all over the identity politics section of the internet.  just because they say they don't, we can read context.  using the language of sensible intersectional politics, it merely is an identifier, but where intersectionality has become identity politics it is clear that cis is a slur.  that's why none of them bang on about being cis.  they're all genderqueer even if they're straight people who dress to their birth gender.  because to be cis is to lose oppression points.  and they need lots of oppression points to make up for the fact they;'re all white middle class people with fuck all real oppression to be victims of.  none of them use cis- as a neutral term of description, it's always loaded and used to imply privilege and to shut down voices of opposition. 

_no vietnamese ever called me cisgendered_


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Cis is used as a slur though, all over the identity politics section of the internet.  just because they say they don't, we can read context.  using the language of sensible intersectional politics, it merely is an identifier, but where intersectionality has become identity politics it is clear that cis is a slur.  that's why none of them bang on about being cis.  they're all genderqueer even if they're straight people who dress to their birth gender.  because to be cis is to lose oppression points.  and they need lots of oppression points to make up for the fact they;'re all white middle class people with fuck all real oppression to be victims of.  none of them use cis- as a neutral term of description, it's always loaded and used to imply privilege and to shut down voices of opposition.
> 
> _no vietnamese ever called me cisgendered_


 
or "agender" even if they're a straight white man


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Cis is used as a slur though, all over the identity politics section of the internet.  just because they say they don't, we can read context.  using the language of sensible intersectional politics, it merely is an identifier, but where intersectionality has become identity politics it is clear that cis is a slur.  that's why none of them bang on about being cis.  they're all genderqueer even if they're straight people who dress to their birth gender.  because to be cis is to lose oppression points.  and they need lots of oppression points to make up for the fact they;'re all white middle class people with fuck all real oppression to be victims of.  none of them use cis- as a neutral term of description, it's always loaded and used to imply privilege and to shut down voices of opposition.
> 
> _no vietnamese ever called me cisgendered_



exactly this.

_Other people_ are cis-gendered (and serial monogamists). "I mean, it's not a bad thing, obviously, it's just the way they are, the simple fools."

But this defeats the whole function of the word "cis", which is NOT TO ASSUME that people are cis.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 1, 2014)

"a man died in an Israeli air strike"
"HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS A MAN"


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Cis is used as a slur though, all over the identity politics section of the internet.  just because they say they don't, we can read context.  using the language of sensible intersectional politics, it merely is an identifier, but where intersectionality has become identity politics it is clear that cis is a slur.  that's why none of them bang on about being cis.  they're all genderqueer even if they're straight people who dress to their birth gender.  because to be cis is to lose oppression points.  and they need lots of oppression points to make up for the fact they;'re all white middle class people with fuck all real oppression to be victims of.  none of them use cis- as a neutral term of description, it's always loaded and used to imply privilege and to shut down voices of opposition.
> 
> _no vietnamese ever called me cisgendered_



Wait, are you implying white-middle-class trans folk won't suffer oppression? C'mon. They clearly do. https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/aids/consumers/lgbt/transgender_health_concerns.htm


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Wait, are you implying white-middle-class trans folk won't suffer oppression? C'mon. They clearly do. https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/aids/consumers/lgbt/transgender_health_concerns.htm



that's not what he's saying at all.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 1, 2014)

From a _Guardian_ reader survey today:


----------



## marty21 (Aug 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> loads of tweets today asking why people don't identify themselves as cis or trans etc. surely most trans people face far more serious issues than this? and im getting really annoyed by this self indulgent wank when kids are dying in gaza


 I got caught up in a Cis/Terf loop yesterday on twitter - it's a fucking minefield!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2014)

cisTerfs are doing it for themselves.


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2014)

Wiki says that Criado-Perez was born in Brazil and her da escaped the Argentinian dictatorship. You'd think that this would amount to an impressive oppression point score with intersectionalistas but apparently not. Maybe if she had curly hair like Flavia Dzodan, she'd be allowed to identify as a WOC?


----------



## marty21 (Aug 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> cisTerfs are doing it for themselves.


  bet you've waited years to say that


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> cisTerfs are doing it for themselves.


Settin' up their own twitter feeds
Something something something


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> cisTerfs are doing it for themselves.


Damn it, athos just won the other thread with Ypres St Laurent and now you've won this one.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Christ, 11 minutes into that NS podcast, Penny is already conflating disgusting misogyny with actual critique of her writing.



No change there, then. It's a handy means to avoid engaging with actual critics and to try scaring people into silence rather than force an issue. It's evasion, a cheap shot and a lie based on expediency rather than fact. Then again, her integrity (story involving a person threatening suicide that professionals advised her not to proceed with, she ignored them and wrote it up anyway), honesty (see the Ryan Gosling debacle and anybody not agreeing with her being a misogynist), professional ability (see lousy fact-checking where they're checked at all) and hypocrisy (fronting up to people and making libellous allegations when she thinks she can get away with it, then running away and whinging about being smeared when she's caught dead to rights) don't exactly inspire confidence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> I find it hard to think lp has a levels at times,  let alone a degree from Oxford or Cambridge.  Surely she's capable of a little critical thinking/fact checking?  Or does she just say anything that sounds populist?



I suspect that she follows the standard idea of focusing on an issue, and then pulling in info about it.  Thing is, I was taught that you draw info from a variety of sources, from other papers' stories and academia, and synthesise a relevant article from them.  I'm not sure that LP bothers with anything as time-consuming as reading academic papers in order to cross-check her claims.  I'm fairly sure that she thinks "oh well, if it was printed in another paper, and the journo didn't get pulled up, it must be right!".
It's journalism by blagging, and that's without critiquing how she inserts herself into every story!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> If you've been abused then the "common sense" idea that you are likely to go on to become an abuser yourself really isn't going to help you come to terms with it.



No, and I've known people to actually be harmed (mostly through self-harm) because of their own belief in that "common sense" piece of nonsense after it was retailed to them.  Sometimes, I wish Ms Penny would bother to engage her brain before submitting her copy, I really fucking do.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> Wiki says that Criado-Perez was born in Brazil and her da escaped the Argentinian dictatorship. You'd think that this would amount to an impressive oppression point score with intersectionalistas but apparently not. Maybe if she had curly hair like Flavia Dzodan, she'd be allowed to identify as a WOC?
> 
> View attachment 58759


 

how awful to be confused with a white person when your hair is clearly nothing like a white person's hair.







surely only a racist could possible look at this person and see a white woman?  LOOK AT THAT HAIR PEOPLE LOOK AT IT.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> how awful to be confused with a white person when your hair is clearly nothing like a white person's hair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 you need to check your cis privilege matey


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

are you being racist at me?


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> how awful to be confused with a white person when your hair is clearly nothing like a white person's hair.
> 
> 
> 
> surely only a racist could possible look at this person and see a white woman?  LOOK AT THAT HAIR PEOPLE LOOK AT IT.


J-Roc is a more convincing POC.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> are you being racist at me?


 LOOK AT YOUR HAIR


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

identity shaming


----------



## marty21 (Aug 1, 2014)

Terf luck


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 1, 2014)

Was Cyrus cis? S/he coulda got everybody together and stop the TERF wars


----------



## marty21 (Aug 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Was Cyrus cis? S/he coulda got everybody together and stop the TERF wars


I see what you did there


----------



## Athos (Aug 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> cisTerfs are doing it for themselves.



Fucking brilliant.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2014)

Athos said:


> Fucking brilliant.


\

our pun game has been strong today ennit *fist bump*


----------



## Athos (Aug 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> \
> 
> our pun game has been strong today ennit *fist bump*



Yeah.  Not sure how impressed the Mrs will be when she gets home and I haven't emptied the loft, as promised, though.


----------



## Rural (Aug 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, and I've known people to actually be harmed (mostly through self-harm) because of their own belief in that "common sense" piece of nonsense after it was retailed to them.  Sometimes, I wish Ms Penny would bother to engage her brain before submitting her copy, I really fucking do.


Me too.  It makes me rage with the unfairness & inaccuracy of it.  Does a lot of damage.  I wish ppl would stop repeating it uncritically.


----------



## Rural (Aug 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> how awful to be confused with a white person when your hair is clearly nothing like a white person's hair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have literally seen tweeters (with no sense of irony) condemn ccp 4 having blonde hair while claiming to b South American,  while saying how awful it is women like flavia r oppressed cos they r s American, ie in terms of hyper-sexualisation etc. The things they pity poor flavia for are used to degrade ccp. Like everything else,  most of these ppl have no values,  it's all who u like & who is in with the cool group.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> most of these ppl have no values,  it's all who u like & who is in with the cool group.



+1


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 1, 2014)

Athos said:


> Yeah.  Not sure how impressed the Mrs will be when she gets home and I haven't emptied the loft, as promised, though.


Typical bourgeoise, with her lofty aspirations, crushing the dreams of the toilers


----------



## Athos (Aug 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Typical bourgeoise, with her lofty aspirations, crushing the dreams of the toilers



In fairness, she spent the weekend emptying the shed of coal.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 1, 2014)

Athos said:


> In fairness, she spent the weekend emptying the shed of coal.


Absolutely bunkers


----------



## two sheds (Aug 1, 2014)

Athos said:


> In fairness, she spent the weekend emptying the shed of coal.





> Right, Father.
> The roof should be Ok now.
> I hoovered the upstairs and I did the attic, top to bottom.
> What else? Oh, yes, yes.
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 1, 2014)

treelover said:


> Not in Belgium then where hundreds of thousands marched because they knew this went much deeper than just Mark Dutroux.


Not strictly correct, the White March was for a better police and justice system, because there were some pretty horrendous mistakes in the police investigation which meant that 4 girls died when they likely could have been rescued.



> The march was intended not only as a protest at what is becoming popularly perceived as an incompetent law and order system, but also as an expression of sympathy with the victims of a gang reportedly led by a convicted child rapist, Marc Dutroux, one of the 13 charged.



http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/21/world/275000-in-belgium-protest-handling-of-child-sex-scandal.html


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> J-Roc is a more convincing POC.




I was JUST ABOUT TO POST THIS


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> cisTerfs are doing it for themselves.


 You that's probably the best post you're ever going to make right.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 2, 2014)

peak dottie


----------



## rekil (Aug 6, 2014)

New OJ book out soon. The bowler hat on the cover is a bad start. Get out of the 60's man! Chavs had a burberry cap on the cover. Maybe it's a cleverclogs theme and his 3rd one will feature I dunno a beret, 'Resistance - on the front lines in the war on povs" or something.



> Lovely as those reviews are, they may be the last - my chapter on the media probably won’t do go down a storm with some


It's going to be a slagging of guido, murdoch, and the daily mail isn't it.


----------



## cesare (Aug 6, 2014)

How *they* get away with it? Surely that should be how *we* get away with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2014)

Or, _How i got into it._


----------



## chilango (Aug 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Or, _How i got into it._



Could he really pad out "I went to Oxford" into book length prose?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2014)

I found a really old copy of 'Dude wheres my country' by Michael Moore and took it to the bog for some shit -lit. Proper proper liberal garbage. I hope Jones doesn't go down this path, the way he's started to call anyone left of labour an anarchist or a swappie is not an encouraging sign.


----------



## rekil (Aug 6, 2014)

Next hat cover themed book. It seemed funnier in my head.


----------



## Limerick Red (Aug 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Next hat cover themed book. It seemed funnier in my head.
> 
> 
> View attachment 59089


Love the shirts


----------



## J Ed (Aug 6, 2014)

copliker love the 'squee solidarity' bit


----------



## rekil (Aug 6, 2014)

He went a bit mad today.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 6, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0249qp5


----------



## Rural (Aug 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Next hat cover themed book. It seemed funnier in my head.
> 
> 
> View attachment 59089



What's a pov?  I thought it was point of view


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2014)

Rural said:


> What's a pov?  I thought it was point of view


In this case a 'pov' is a poor person i.e. someone poverty-stricken.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2014)

chilango said:


> Could he really pad out "I went to Oxford" into book length prose?


Brightest bloke in the brightest school


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2014)

In other news Laurie is still plugging her book on twitter:


> *Laurie Penny*  @PennyRed     ·    Jul 11
> This is your friendly weekly reminder that Unspeakable Things is out now in the UK. Here's the (Amazon) link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1408824744/ref=redir_mdp_mobile…


----------



## Rural (Aug 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> In other news Laurie is still plugging her book on twitter:


Oh no it's going to be a weekly event by the look of it. Wish she'd hurry up & go to merica where she will no doubt embrace her inner liberal.  Or become a Republican,  whatever. I


----------



## rekil (Aug 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> In other news Laurie is still plugging her book on twitter:


It's a pinned tweet. Nothing wrong with plugging your book on twitter.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 7, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/29-perfect-age-friend

old people suck


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/29-perfect-age-friend
> 
> old people suck



Only eggs though - And grandmas need to be taught.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 8, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Only eggs though - And grandmas need to be taught.


That always makes me think of _Ai No Corrida_


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2014)

Pop


----------



## Rural (Aug 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's a pinned tweet. Nothing wrong with plugging your book on twitter.


What's a pinned tweet?; is it like an advert, like those promoted tweets?


----------



## captainmission (Aug 8, 2014)

Rural said:


> What's a pinned tweet?; is it like an advert, like those promoted tweets?



It's a tweet that'll appear at the top of her feed. Similar to a sticky thread on a forum. Why would anyone pay her to promote her own book?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 59086



Can we not do something with the bowler hat and the Clockwork Orange poster?







_Being the adventures of a young man whose principle interests are being chuffed/gutted, recruiting people to the Labour party and..._

sort of thing?


----------



## rekil (Aug 8, 2014)

Speaking of Oxford, this is probably the appalling indictment of the class system ever.

A Theory of Justice: the Musical!





> In order to draw inspiration for his magnum opus, John Rawls travels back through time to converse (in song) with a selection of political philosophers, including Plato, Locke, Rousseau and Mill. But the journey is not as smooth as he hoped: for as he pursues his love interest, the beautiful student Fairness, through history, he must escape the evil designs of his libertarian arch-nemesis, Robert Nozick, and his objectivist lover, Ayn Rand.. Will he achieve his goal of defining Justice as Fairness?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2014)

Coming soon to first radio 4 then BBC 2.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 8, 2014)

Random aside, what has Frances been banned for this time?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 8, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Random aside, what has Frances been banned for this time?



I think it might be for propositioning Johnny Vodka.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 8, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> I think it might be for propositioning Johnny Vodka.


I saw that, doesn't seem all that ban worthy. He has posted worse I am sure.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2014)

Being a dick - as normal. Who fucking cares.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 8, 2014)

Decent number of commentariat idiots on the list of 200 people against Scottish independence

Also, how many of these people are upper-middle-class and English? lol


----------



## emanymton (Aug 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Being a dick - as normal. Who fucking cares.


Yeah fair enough.


----------



## Rural (Aug 8, 2014)

captainmission said:


> It's a tweet that'll appear at the top of her feed. Similar to a sticky thread on a forum. Why would anyone pay her to promote her own book?


Thanks I expect we'll b hearing a lot about her book & America from her until she goes :/


----------



## Rural (Aug 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Decent number of commentariat idiots on the list of 200 people against Scottish independence
> 
> Also, how many of these people are upper-middle-class and English? lol


Against it??? I thought I'd misread that at first. Not that I shd b surprised tho,  probably exactly to be expected given how dire most of their views are


----------



## rioted (Aug 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Being a dick - as normal. Who fucking cares.


Arsehole


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2014)

rioted said:


> Arsehole


You lost. Live with it for what's left.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 10, 2014)

Christ. Excruciating from Helen Lewis:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...net-mary-beard-female-troll#start-of-comments


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 10, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Christ. Excruciating from Helen Lewis:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...net-mary-beard-female-troll#start-of-comments



What I dislike about that is seemingly claiming ownership of something that can affect anybody. Anybody can suffer online abuse (I personally have, it's no fun at all) and anybody with a web connection can deliver it. Demographics are irrelevant with that in mind.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 10, 2014)

Again, she lumps all criticism or her and her friends as MRAs. She's only really interested in censoring those who critique their work. Not that any of us would defend rampant misogyny but she's deliberately conflating the two issues.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 10, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Again, she lumps all criticism or her and her friends as MRAs. She's only really interested in censoring those who critique their work. Not that any of us would defend rampant misogyny but she's deliberately conflating the two issues.



And completely failing to acknowledge that this is a universal problem, or deliberately avoiding the fact. Cynical, ignorant (possibly wilfully so) and thoroughly dishonest.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 10, 2014)

I find their position so inconsistent. Why not push for a safe space for all online?


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 10, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I find their position so inconsistent. Why not push for a safe space for all online?



I asked her that in the comment section and she hasn't responded. I've asked others that on Twitter. The answers to raising the issue consisted of my being labelled a misogynist and told to fuck off.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

Which is ridiculous Bakunin you're no more a misogynist than I am. Online should be safe for everybody, it's not just about making it safe for women only. I've had some online abuse, not much fortunately, and I think that the semi-anonymous nature of it, even on Urban, makes certain people think they can say whatever they want with impunity and no consequences.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Which is ridiculous Bakunin you're no more a misogynist than I am. Online should be safe for everybody, it's not just about making it safe for women only. I've had some online abuse, not much fortunately, and I think that the semi-anonymous nature of it, even on Urban, makes certain people think they can say whatever they want with impunity and no consequences.



I had somebody harass me both online and in person and it's certainly not something I'd wish on anybody. It's debilitating, it affects your personal relationships with other people, it's upsetting and it can wear you down the longer it goes on for. The web, unfortunately, lends itself to people who want to do that because they can hit and run while hiding behind multiple identities and smear you before anybody with an internet connection just by typing bullshit and posting it up.


----------



## Rural (Aug 10, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> I asked her that in the comment section and she hasn't responded. I've asked others that on Twitter. The answers to raising the issue consisted of my being labelled a misogynist and told to fuck off.


This is the problem with so much*debate* on twitter,  any dissent gets someone labelled as "evil", "the worst" "a whatever-phobe". Completely shuts down debate


----------



## weepiper (Aug 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Decent number of commentariat idiots on the list of 200 people against Scottish independence
> 
> Also, how many of these people are upper-middle-class and English? lol





> Dan Snow, the television historian, co-organised the letter with historian Tom Holland.



This Dan Snow, you mean?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 10, 2014)

Rod Liddle, he really loves us and wants us to stay, eh


----------



## weepiper (Aug 10, 2014)

David Starkey loves us really too.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2014)

weepiper said:


> David Starkey loves us really too.



Starkey doesn't even understand the city he lives in, let alone another country.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

weepiper said:


> David Starkey loves us really too.


He didn't like Burns either


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 10, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Rod Liddle, he really loves us and wants us to stay, eh


Rod "Goat Curry" Liddle.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

I think I'd rather he went to somewhere like Sealand, so all of us were safe from his rampant bigotry.


----------



## chilango (Aug 10, 2014)

Liddle's a prick.

What is most offensive about him is not _what_ he writes - I doubt he believes a word of it - but that he thinks he can get away with pawning this shit off as what the "ordinary man in the street" believes. He wouldn't dream of talking like this amongst his social circle, yet merrily writes it for us.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 11, 2014)

In 1983 Rod Liddle was the music columnist for a local paper in South Wales, and he made a band I was in his "hot tip" for success that year.  Catch them now, he wrote, before you can't afford them.  They're going to be bigger than the Beatles.

Within a month we had broken up amid terrible acrimony and the bass player was in prison.

Make of that what you will.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 11, 2014)

Oh damn, I meant to post this yesterday - on the commentariat front, Owen "Oxbridge" Jones was one of the speakers at the Gaza solidarity demo on Saturday.  As he started up, I was looking at the video screen, and noticed that he was reciting his speech from reading his mobile phone!  Surely that's kinda cheating, right?  At least the Gorgeous One's later tub-thumping bellowing was done w/out any sort of script (let alone a bloody mobile phone).


----------



## brogdale (Aug 11, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Oh damn, I meant to post this yesterday - on the commentariat front, Owen "Oxbridge" Jones was one of the speakers at the Gaza solidarity demo on Saturday.  As he started up, I was looking at the video screen, and noticed that he was reciting his speech from reading his mobile phone!  Surely that's kinda cheating, right?  At least the Gorgeous One's later tub-thumping bellowing was done w/out any sort of script (let alone a bloody mobile phone).



Why bother turning up at all? Surely he could just have tweeted the speech through his phone to the video screen...and the assembled masses could have been enlightened.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 11, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Why bother turning up at all? Surely he could just have tweeted the speech through his phone to the video screen...and the assembled masses could have been enlightened.



Indeed so - or he could've done one better and had a still image of one of his Graun Comment Is Free columns put on the video screen, and then we could have all basked in its (and his) munificence.


----------



## rekil (Aug 11, 2014)

OJ channelling Michael O'Leary a bit today - "I just believe in democratic control by consumers". Referring to people as 'consumers' always gives me the heebie jeebies.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 11, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Oh damn, I meant to post this yesterday - on the commentariat front, Owen "Oxbridge" Jones was one of the speakers at the Gaza solidarity demo on Saturday.  As he started up, I was looking at the video screen, and noticed that he was reciting his speech from reading his mobile phone!  Surely that's kinda cheating, right?  At least the Gorgeous One's later tub-thumping bellowing was done w/out any sort of script (let alone a bloody mobile phone).



If I was addressing a rally of tens of thousands of people, I might have some notes to refer to rather than winging it?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 11, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> If I was addressing a rally of tens of thousands of people, I might have some notes to refer to rather than winging it?



Oh yeah, I can see that, but surely glancing at yr phone every 15 seconds (which he was doing) is a bit much.  And as it goes, everyone else there without exception spoke without notes.  Surely the boy Jones could have done some pre-demo speech revision by e.g. memorising bullet points stuff?

(e2a: I've edited this post 4 times now!)


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 11, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Oh yeah, I can see that, but surely glancing at yr phone every 15 seconds (which he was doing) I thought was a bit much.  And as it goes, everyone else there without exception spoke without notes.  Surely the boy Jones could have done some pre-demo sppech revision by e.g. memorising bullet points stuff?


Maybe he had the speech memorised but was just checking the phone to keep up with the football scores - it was the first day of the season after all. You know checking his bets and his fantasy football team.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe he had the speech memorise but was just checking the phone to keep up with the football scores - it was the first day of the season after all. You know checking his bets and his fantasy football team.



Arf!   As H J Simpson would say, "It's funny 'cause it's true"


----------



## rekil (Aug 11, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> If I was addressing a rally of tens of thousands of people, I might have some notes to refer to rather than winging it?


He's just a boy who can't say no. By some weird process of osmosis, having been to Oxford confers an ability and confidence to weigh in on literally any subject, no matter how 'shaky' one's grasp of it may be.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2014)

Rural said:


> This is the problem with so much*debate* on twitter,  any dissent gets someone labelled as "evil", "the worst" "a whatever-phobe". Completely shuts down debate



It's supposed to shut down debate. If somebody comes up with inconvenient points that don't fit a pre-conceived narrative and insists on standing their ground, then trying to scare them into backing down with a smear or two, or provoking them into a row instead of a reasoned debate in the hope that their inconvenient line of questioning will be forgotten, is a standard tactic for people who want to be seen to debate without actually doing so.

If you don't have a decent answer then scare them into silence or distract onlookers by turning a debate into a fight, simple.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> He's just a boy who can't say no. By some weird process of osmosis, having been to Oxford confers an ability and confidence to weigh in on literally any subject, no matter how 'shaky' one's grasp of it may be.


i've been to oxford on several occasions and this osmosis hasn't worked for me yet


----------



## rekil (Aug 11, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i've been to oxford on several occasions and this osmosis hasn't worked for me yet





Spoiler: another theory shot to shit









> From the hand of a government man
> Came these papers
> Came these signs
> Came these good things


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2014)

copliker


----------



## rekil (Aug 11, 2014)

Oh I dunno, still hungover from the Bragg multitudinous positionism conversion victory party.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 11, 2014)

> @PennyRed: It's very exciting being on Australian media. I've never been there, so in my head it's a magical land which may not exist.



Hallo birds hallo trees


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2014)

I'm surprised Penny Dreadful hasn't jumped all over the former commander of HMS Portland, the first female warship skipper in Royal Navy history, recently being stripped of her command.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2014)

made front page of the sun, that.

total wank, how many male rankers have had thier sexual indiscretions splashed on the front page?


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> made front page of the sun, that.
> 
> total wank, how many male rankers have had thier sexual indiscretions splashed on the front page?



In fairness, the affair was with a subordinate officer also serving aboard HMS Portland. I can see why that might cause serious problems aboard ship, especially in action. Personally, I'm not so bothered about about the affair as much as the potential risk to the other officers and crew that might have transpired as a result of that. To be fair, I'd sooner see both of them shipped out to different postings as they were both at fault. I'm not interested in either of the individuals, but in the well-being and safety of the ship's company.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> In fairness, the affair was with a subordinate officer also serving aboard HMS Portland. I can see why that might cause serious problems aboard ship, especially in action. Personally, I'm not so bothered about about the affair as much as the potential risk to the other officers and crew that might have transpired as a result of that. To be fair, I'd sooner see both of them shipped out to different postings as they were both at fault. I'm not interested in either of the individuals, but in the well-being and safety of the ship's company.




well yeah, but my point was that how many male officers have got caught fucking about and inappropriately and then had the sun do a front page spread of the story under the tasteful headline 'jolly rogerer'


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2014)

That's a fair point. I'm not in favour of other officers having their misconduct overlooked or swept under the carpet at all. What military personnel do in their personal lives is up to them, but anybody bringing their personal life on deck with them is a different matter. I'd take issue with anybody doing that because it puts others at unnecessary risk.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2014)

> @Rebb003: @thelindywest @PennyRed @katebornstein It's happening. Let's share stories of anxiety & depression, raise awareness: #sparkofmadness



And as if by magic, here is one Penny made earlier



> @PennyRed: I've been writing a long piece about depression and anxiety for ages, scared to post. I'll get to that today. #sparkofmadness


----------



## rekil (Aug 13, 2014)

James Bloodworth here, schooling you fools with some phat history beats.


> When it comes to the totalitarian rebellions against liberal societies throughout history, sophisticated people have very often failed to grasp what goes on in the minds of the fanatic.
> Back in the 1930s, attempts to explain fascism famously tripped up many leading intellectuals of the time. Hitler’s demands to expand the Third Reich were taken by many otherwise sophisticated people as code for something else. Was it not true, after all, that the Treaty of Versailles had imposed punitive and unreasonable conditions on Germany? As Paul Berman noted in his book, Terror and Liberalism, despite the SS repeatedly reaffirming at its death camps that "here there is no why", for much of the left there was always a "why".


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 13, 2014)

Christ, even by Bloodworth's low standards that's a stinking turd. Of course, Bloodworth would cite a book that praises neo-Con intervention. 
Anyway.... These made me chuckle:


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 13, 2014)

Right, I'm near finishing that blog post about Laurie Penny I said I'd do like a year ago, lol. Split it into two because it's quite big. I've covered:
private education, oxford
Suspiciously biased wiki page
Public letter to disabled reader
For fuck sake, I work for a living
That post from the morning star co-worker
Calling Jacob a cunt
That IWCA article
Girl in the grey hoody
Enniskillen G8
Don't want to get deported/arrested just for journalism and too warm to go to Gaza protest

Possible misrepresentation of that MRA dickhead
Starkey
Trying to hire an intern below min wage/guido fawkes
'People have an exaggerated idea of how wealthy I was growing up'

There are some things I want to work in that I haven't yet. For eg, living in Mayfair, living on inheritance while doing an internship, changing opinion on NATO every ten minutes.  If there's anything anyone thinks I should specifically mention that I haven't done already then now's the time to remind me. I know everything's gone quiet recently but there needs to be a decentish record of all the things she's done because it's quite hard to keep track already. I've split it into two, first half being mainly her background and how she's fucked off the left and latter half being how the right uses it against us.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2014)

matiness with Louise Mensch?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 13, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> ...If there's anything anyone thinks I should specifically mention that I haven't done already then now's the time to remind me...




Misrepresenting/misquoting woman during cycle of student protests & occupations (IIRC the person in question came back with a three-part blog takedown of LP)
Self-plagiarism and repackaging (at relative high cost) of previously published material
Changing sexual self-identification to suit audience/garner sympathy

The ‘brief stint as burlesque performer entitles me to speak for sex workers’ angle early on
‘Missed last train to airport so am basically homeless’
Molly's portrait
E-cig on _The Daily Politics_ or _This Week_
Fulsome praise for her old (private school) head/teacher
Living with The Lez
Ryan Gosling fanfic incident


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2014)

The secret private school motivational speaker network


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 13, 2014)

Oh, and the ‘new new journalism’/‘longform reportage’ yadda yadda yadda shtick that went with her minibook done with Molly.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2014)

The talk at oxford where she approvingly said that those in the room - her included - ran and owned the world. That could be used to tie together the overarching sentiment/motif of all this really.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2014)

starting the journo wankers 'I am in you' twitter affectation. Probably just a bit minor, but by fuck did it annoy me


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm no where near finished am I.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 13, 2014)

"Explaining why this is so significant is hard for me, because I’m about as close as you can get to the trans rights movement without being trans yourself"

http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2014/06/laurie-penny-what-transgender-tipping-point-really-means


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2014)

> @WillMcHoebag: Robin Williams was incredibly selfish; at no point did he stop and consider what Laurie Penny might have been going through.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2014)

Oh god, the pretending to wear a Burkha/abaya for two weeks one. Is there any experience she can't talk for?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Oh god, the pretending to wear a Burkha/abaya for two weeks one. Is there any experience she can't talk for?



Erectile dysfuction? Or did I miss that piece?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2014)

Victim of years of unspeakable bullying on social media because she has dared to ' speak up'


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Erectile dysfuction? Or did I miss that piece?


Was a fair while ago - not so sure she's be so confidently bullshitting now she has more attention.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 13, 2014)

It's from 2009 but amazingly lacking in self-awareness:

"Islamic culture is not mine to appropriate. I still enjoy wearing hijab, but out of respect to the many full-time veil-wearers in my area of London I only wear it around the house. Maybe that's weird - but it's no weirder than the many women who are happiest prancing around their living rooms in frilly underwear or, in the case of one particular friend of mine, eight-inch spike heels and a steel-bone corset."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/labourlist/france-tells-women-what-n_b_221803.html


----------



## brogdale (Aug 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Was a fair while ago - not so sure she's be so confidently bullshitting now she has more attention.


 
"Gotcha"

I actually clicked on that thinking...surely not...she couldn't have, could she?


----------



## chilango (Aug 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The secret private school motivational speaker network



It's not secret.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Oh god, the pretending to wear a Burkha/abaya for two weeks one. Is there any experience she can't talk for?



the cameltoe/hijab 'never change London' tweet is a tie in


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2014)

chilango said:


> It's not secret.


It's not secret to those who are ITK i agree.


----------



## rekil (Aug 13, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the cameltoe/hijab 'never change London' tweet is a tie in


That one was a little bit everyday sexism.

Penance: 50 listenings to Fugazi's Suggestion


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 13, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the cameltoe/hijab 'never change London' tweet is a tie in



I thought you were joking!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2014)

beyond parody I'm afraid


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 13, 2014)

I feel bad referencing tweets from 2011 because I tweeted a lot of shit then too. But I was 16 and not writing for national newspapers


----------



## rekil (Aug 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Misrepresenting/misquoting woman during cycle of student protests & occupations (IIRC the person in question came back with a three-part blog takedown of LP)
> 
> Changing sexual self-identification to suit audience/garner sympathy


Sofie Buckland 
"More Irish than English" but a little bit jewish as well.

The mutiny blather in her book while gushing simultaneously over pretend labour party water carrier Tom Watson.


Spoiler: mutiny









Spoiler: watson







Hatred of Americans. 



Spoiler: americans







Chasing Tommy and subsequent interview.

Hilarious graffiti attempt for German tv and doing a scabby interview for a paper that has a policy of boycotting and smearing the German left.

Bizarre self aggrandisment, illustrated by that portrait.


> Why is it that in London, in New York, in California, in Egypt and across the world, it is young journalists who have come to be identified, in the absence of named leaders, as figureheads in these new movements? Why not orators, organisers, artists, musicians, singer-songwriters? Why journalists?


----------



## rekil (Aug 13, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> Don't want to get deported/arrested just for journalism and too warm to go to Gaza protest


Contrast with say, Naomi Klein who got arrested outside the white house in 2011.


> “I wasn’t planning to get arrested,” Klein told the Star minutes after she was sprung.  “It was a last-minute decision. I was sitting there with several indigenous leaders from Canada. And when it became clear they intended to stay where they were and expose themselves to arrest, well . . .” She did the same.  For Klein, it was a first-ever arrest. “I write. And I’m an activist. But I’m not a chanter, not a marcher. I’ve never been arrested before.
> “But that’s what’s been happened for two weeks. Climate scientists, landowners, a wide range of people who all feel this same sense of urgency. The feeling is that we can’t just talk about the stakes on Twitter and leave it at that. If we mean what we say then we have to act like it.” Klein is unsure yet whether the bust will come back haunt her in future cross-border travels.



I hope this doesn't clash too much with the Camila Vallejo vs Laurie priv off international thing I've nearly done.


----------



## rekil (Aug 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The talk at oxford where she approvingly said that those in the room - her included - ran and owned the world. That could be used to tie together the overarching sentiment/motif of all this really.


But it's a racist place, why would she speak at a racist place?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2014)

> Chasing Tommy and subsequent interview.



I still claim the co-authored parody of that interview as my greatest literary achievement


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 13, 2014)

Christ, how did I miss this Penny debacle from 2011? 

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150251255627156

"Yesterday, Laurie Penny published a piece about the sentencing of Charlie Gilmour on the New Statesman website (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/07/charlie-gilmour-months-tabloid), which was chiefly a character assassination. Gilmour is accused by Penny (a journalist who considers herself not only part of the movement but the authentic voice of his generation) of being  a “spoilt, selfish, drug-addled neo-aristocratic nihilist with daddy issues”,  a “posh tosser”, a “massive prat”, and a “messed-up young idiot”, not to mention her implication that he has an alcohol problem."

She eventually agreed to edit it.

_Editor's note: This post was updated by Laurie Penny at 5.05pm on Sunday, 17 July_

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/07/charlie-gilmour-months-tabloid


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Christ, how did I miss this Penny debacle from 2011?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150251255627156
> 
> ...


this would be the same laurie penny who went to oxford, leaving herself open to charges of being 'a massive prat', 'posh tosser', 'messed up young idiot' and doubtless tippler etc etc ad nauseam?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Christ, how did I miss this Penny debacle from 2011?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150251255627156
> 
> ...


She was right there. Which also means we can legitimately use similar characterisations back at her and most of the rest of the commentariat.


----------



## krink (Aug 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> Hilarious graffiti attempt for German tv



any link?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

perhaps it's time to start a thread, 'penny dreadful', devoted to la penny's scribblings


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She was right there. Which also means we can legitimately use similar characterisations back at her and most of the rest of the commentariat.




I still think his nailing on that was unfairly harsh, but yes he shouldn't have been off his tree on acid swinging from a cenotaph. Its not just a bit off, it makes everyone around him look a cunt as well, allows the tarring with brush.


----------



## rekil (Aug 13, 2014)

krink said:


> any link?


2:56 mark.



Spoiler: anarchy lol


----------



## krink (Aug 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> 2:56 mark.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: anarchy lol




oh dear. that _is_ embarrassing!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 13, 2014)

Sucking up to Helen Lewis (who commissions the articles), and then sucking up to the person currently beefing with Helen Lewis (invariably a someone who lends LP some intersectional cred)
‘Did I mention that I'm Great Showbiz Pals with Warren Ellis?’/Savage Red Pen of Justice

Getting her Twitter followers to donate cash instead of putting her own hand in her pocket to help out that Greek journo who had his kit nicked whilst working as an unpaid stringer/translator for her 9 day excursion to Hellas


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 13, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> I feel bad referencing tweets from 2011 because I tweeted a lot of shit then too. But I was 16 and not writing for national newspapers



fucking hell, i thought your were an aged joyless cynic like the rest of us around here.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 13, 2014)

I wonder if the youngsters among us even know what a dial-up modem sounds like. Back in my day, it took a minute to connect and anyone posting a huge cat picture on a forum would have been crucified.

Kids today are all 'Why can't I stream this video to my fridge in full 1080p'.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 13, 2014)

Damarr said:


> Kids today are all 'Why can't I stream this video to my fridge in full 1080p'.



_Video_? No, the youth is all about the SQUID, baby.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps it's time to start a thread, 'penny dreadful', devoted to la penny's scribblings


 She might start posting again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

brogdale said:


> She might start posting again.


good

hopefully she'd have less time to write her farting piffle for the ns


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> good
> 
> hopefully she'd have less time to write her farting piffle for the ns


Her Harvard jaunt, which I believe starts this month, apparently means that “Any professional work [she undertakes] will be at the discretion of the Nieman Foundation.”

http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Her Harvard jaunt, which I believe starts this month, apparently means that “Any professional work [she undertakes] will be at the discretion of the Nieman Foundation.”
> 
> http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/


perhaps the nieman foundation considers the outlay well worth the price of curtailing her writing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 13, 2014)

ALTRUISTIC PHILANTHROPY LIVES


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Her Harvard jaunt, which I believe starts this month, apparently means that “Any professional work [she undertakes] will be at the discretion of the Nieman Foundation.”
> 
> http://laurie-penny.com/some-very-exciting-news/



Isn't that likely to cramp the shameless self-promotion, hypocrisy, dishonesty, lightweight writing and lack of professional ethics?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 14, 2014)

“Deeds not words. Fewer business lunches, more throwing punches.”
Getting other people to do your homework/research/job, and calling it ‘crowdsourced’:
Pro-abortion activists in Spain
Anarchists in Athens
Anyone with an opinion on Belgium

I know the Tommy interview was mentioned, but how about STEAK DINNER?
The new penitent spiel - ‘I'm trying to do better, please don't cast me out, I'll be a better intersectional ally in the future I promise’
Smearing someone as a racist, then privately speaking with them on the phone, and agreeing that they're not actually racist, using the ‘misunderstanding’ excuse, but never actually publicly correcting the false accusation


----------



## cesare (Aug 14, 2014)

What was that thing where she fell out with OJ on twitter then she took him for tea to make it up?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps the nieman foundation considers the outlay well worth the price of curtailing her writing.


Who says the rich don't have a social conscience. Long this this sort of social-minded philanthropy. 

edit: damn, far too late.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> starting the journo wankers 'I am in you' twitter affectation. Probably just a bit minor, but by fuck did it annoy me



And what about _Saudade_?


----------



## rekil (Aug 14, 2014)

"I was building an ethical personal brand"

Naomi Klein in No Logo more or less predicting the likes of LP, Vice, crabapple and all those horrible new ink-wirry and activism boutique chancers that occupy shat out. 



'Hullo editors, I'm the voice of youth, I have an anarchy badge and I've been in a kettle, something something lost generation, *wiggles school tie*, career please'.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 14, 2014)

Sort of failing your 'A' levels, (like sort've being as near to trans* as you can get without being it), is a little bit communism.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

How'd she get in to oxford then? She probably did them when she was 12 or something such is her cleverocity.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 14, 2014)

I did wonder about that, having scraped a 'D' and an 'E' second time around and made it to auspicious corridors of the Polytechnic of Central London.

Don't they have entrance exams at Oxbridge? Maybe she did really well in them (trained up for them at the smartest school)


----------



## cesare (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> How'd she get in to oxford then? She probably did them when she was 12 or something such is her cleverocity.


If she passed the Oxford entrance exam and interview, her A level results wouldn't have mattered too much because Oxford rate their own process higher than that of anyone else.


----------



## killer b (Aug 14, 2014)

I dunno if it's the same now, but in my brothers' time once you passed the entrance exam you just needed two D's to get in.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

cesare said:


> If she passed the Oxford entrance exam and interview, her A level results wouldn't have mattered too much because Oxford rate their own process higher than that of anyone else.


Really? Yet another hidden stitch up.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

You've been _anointed  _- don't worry about the stuff the plebs have to do. 

So in fact, she didn't _fail _her a levels. It was _impossible _for her to fail them. The play was already fixed from above by oxford. They just didn't _matter _in her upward progression.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> I dunno if it's the same now, but in my brothers' time once you passed the entrance exam you just needed two D's to get in.


back in the 80s if you passed their tests you just needed two e's. 

i am aware of at least one person who slacked off and didn't even achieve this  minimal target


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

Oxbridge cunts. Find out some new reason to hate it every day.


----------



## cesare (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Really? Yet another hidden stitch up.


More here courtesy of Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-applicants-simply-trained-pass-A-levels.html


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

cesare said:


> More here courtesy of Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-applicants-simply-trained-pass-A-levels.html


Cheers. It would make sense for them to have a private standard mirroring private education i suppose. I hear they plan on having special fast pavement lanes for their students next term. If non-students step in it they get mocked in the _quads_.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cheers. It would make sense for them to have a private standard mirroring private education i suppose. I hear they plan on having special fast pavement lanes for their students next _term_. If non-students step in it they get mocked in the _quads_.


at which point i hope the offending students get kicked in the _quads_ or similar


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 14, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I did wonder about that, having scraped a 'D' and an 'E' second time around and made it to auspicious corridors of the Polytechnic of Central London.
> 
> Don't they have entrance exams at Oxbridge? Maybe she did really well in them (trained up for them at the smartest school)



Don't forget, there's always crammers (if you have the money)!


----------



## cesare (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Cheers. It would make sense for them to have a private standard mirroring private education i suppose. I hear they plan on having special fast pavement lanes for their students next term. If non-students step in it they get mocked in the _quads_.


Students without an elite background and RP accent get mocked too.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

cesare said:


> Students without an elite background and RP accent get mocked too.


Some of them join in the mocking though. That's how they move on up.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 14, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Sort of failing your 'A' levels, (like sort've being as near to trans* as you can get without being it), is a little bit communism.



Is there _no_ issue that isn't all about her?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 14, 2014)

danny la rouge said:


> Is there _no_ issue that isn't all about her?



She _is_ the Zeitgeist, Danny.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 14, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> And what about _Saudade_?


 
How could I forget! I can't bear to look at it again though, it was so cringingly bloody awful. I'll wait til it's read out in full (along with everything else mentioned here) at her show-trial.

Perhaps it offers a glimpse of how insulated these media types make themselves though - no-one, from conception to editing to printing, was kind enough to say to her 'this is fucking terrible'. Editorial meetings at the New Statesman must just be one big _circle-jerk_.


----------



## killer b (Aug 14, 2014)

cesare said:


> Students without an elite background and RP accent get mocked too.


Is that true? Certainly isn't the case with the people I know who went.


----------



## chilango (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Oxbridge cunts. Find out some new reason to hate it every day.



Oh yes.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is that true? Certainly isn't the case with the people I know who went.


 
It was certainly true with me.  My accent was probably quite broad back then.  Many people there had literally never heard a regional accent before, and they just couldn't get over it.  For three years.

There's a very good book called _The Oxbridge Conspiracy _by Walter Ellis.  Came out about 20 years ago, to the predictable slagging, but it's definitely worth a look.


----------



## cesare (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is that true? Certainly isn't the case with the people I know who went.


It's the case with one of the three people I know that went there. They used to pretend not to be able to understand a Yorkshire accent.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is that true? Certainly isn't the case with the people I know who went.



My partner went (smartest girl in the shittest school).

There was some direct mocking, some indirect stuff about arcane table manners and also a sort of patronising pygmallion _let's take you under our wing as the token pov thing_.


----------



## chilango (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is that true? Certainly isn't the case with the people I know who went.



Not just in Oxbridge, and not just students. I've stories that I can't share right now about the "gentle ribbing" that teachers from ordinary backgrounds working in these environments get...


----------



## killer b (Aug 14, 2014)

thinking about it, our alex doesn't have much of an accent anymore...


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> I dunno if it's the same now, but in my brothers' time once you passed the entrance exam you just needed two D's to get in.


 
Three As they wanted off me.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 14, 2014)

Heh, I've just pulled down my copy of _The Oxbridge Conspiracy.  _I'd forgotten how funny it is.  Here's Ellis in the Preface to the second edition, talking about the book's reception:

"Gerard Kaufman... was typically abrupt in his verdict, delivered in the _Sunday Times.  _My statistics of an Oxbridge-dominance of English society were no doubt impeccably accurate, he wrote, but proved nothing.  The doughty socialist then deduced that my problem could easily be summarized: "Baby, It's Cold Outside."  Such is socialism today."

There's plenty more in the same vein, he chooses his targets nicely.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

Beware Owen, ellis was chased around the world and his book sold 200 copies due to exposing what_ no one knows about._


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Beware Owen, ellis was chased around the world and his book sold 200 copies due to exposing what_ no one knows about._


 
No, it sold a lot more than that.  You're talking about the hardback.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, it sold a lot more than that.  You're talking about the hardback.


I am - a hardback that cane out after the original paperback was dumped at the last minute. How many more than 200 did the later paperback sell?


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I am - a hardback that cane out after the original paperback was dumped at the last minute. How many more than 200 did the later paperback sell?


 
It's ranked 700,000 in Amazon today, 20 years after publication, and it was widely reviewed--always negatively, but that doesn't matter--so it probably hit five figures. 

It should have been many more.  And it's probably true that Ellis's career has suffered as a result of writing it.  As he's admitted, the title was unfortunate--of course it isn't a conspiracy, and that gave reviewers something to slag off.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is that true? Certainly isn't the case with the people I know who went.


 
my missus went to oxford and therefore is my go to person for insider information.  she has told stories about this sort of thing, proper blatant stuff, rude to people's faces about their accents or the perception of whether they were privately educated or not.   it's very segregated by class as well once you get there, apparently - with the upper classes not really mingling with the smaller amounts of lower classses.  my missus says that most of the public schools are basically preparing you for oxbridge, the language, the behaviour, the expectatins and the clubs and dinners and all that shit you don't know about if you didn't go to Eton or Rugby or whatever.  Those upper class kids already know how it works, but the Compehensive school swot has no preparation or understanding of those worlds.  non brits tend to hang around in clusters of immigrants and not mingle too much i am told.  ethnic minority brits tend to hang around with the non-brits, because they are all treated like the help by loads of the really posh kids.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 14, 2014)

cesare said:


> If she passed the Oxford entrance exam and interview, her A level results wouldn't have mattered too much because Oxford rate their own process higher than that of anyone else.


You still have to pass your exams though. They do matter.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

Not to her. Or her life transition.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not to her. Or her life transition.


Sadly true. Anyway, she's off to Harvard.


----------



## cesare (Aug 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You still have to pass your exams though. They do matter.


I don't see where I said that someone didn't have to pass their exams and/or that the exams didn't matter.


----------



## chilango (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not to her. Or her life transition.




...or to people like her.

Things that lessen the importance of exam results for these kinds of people include:


"scholarships" and the like.
Private universities where you can simply buy your way in.
Getting a job via family and friends.
Living off inherited wealth.
Over the years I've taught enough posh kids whose poor to appalling exam results have not had the slightest impact on their guaranteed road to "success" thanks to the above "get out of jail free" cards.

It's all utterly rigged.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2014)

chilango said:


> ...or to people like her.
> 
> Things that lessen the importance of exam results for these kinds of people include:
> 
> ...



Of course it is, and those of the ruling classes who know it is rigged are generally those who argue loudest that:
a) It isn't rigged, and/or
b) that *they* got there on merit, it was everyone else who had a silver spoon.

Cunts, the lot of them.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 14, 2014)

cesare said:


> If she passed the Oxford entrance exam and interview, her A level results wouldn't have mattered too much because Oxford rate their own process higher than that of anyone else.


Indeed, as evidenced by my dad failing the entrance exam when he had passed his eleven plus aged nine, been a straight A student at grammar school and never failed any exam in his life before or since. He lived in a council house and his dad was a joiner though so no special considerations for him.


----------



## rekil (Aug 14, 2014)

Rotten on all kinds of levels.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Rotten on all kinds of levels.



What a fucking parasite.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Rotten on all kinds of levels.




Yeah, 'cos we never have days of rioting after the police execute another young black man in London.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What a fucking parasite.


St Louis is a good way away from Harvard, so I don't know why she's freaking out so much. It's not like race riots are a new thing in the US or here anyway, and it's not like they only started happening since she applied to go study there.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I don't know why she's freaking out so much



because 



			
				Laurie said:
			
		

> _me me me me me ME ME_


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 14, 2014)

A guy in the year above me did take the entrance paper, and passed it. They said at interview he would also have to sit an S grade paper in Maths, which he did and passed as well. He then got his offer, 3 'A's. But he got 2'A's and a B for his 'A' levels so they said no to him. He was pretty devastated - and his Dad was a bank manager.

The next year I was offered the chance to do the Oxford entrance exam in mathematics. I had a look at some past papers, and decided it was too much extra work (maths teacher reckoned 3-4 hours additional tutoring a week) for no guaranteed place at the end of it. So I said no and have never regretted it.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 14, 2014)

It's also difficult to take her fear seriously when she posts things like this the day before:


> *Laurie Penny*  @PennyRed     ·    Aug 13
> Please please somebody create a street riot scene out of gingerbread. #*tgbbo*


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 14, 2014)

weepiper said:


> because


Hey, go easy, it's been a tough week for Laurie, what with Robin Williams selfishly topping himself, A-Level results coming out and now the Ferguson farrago, all triggering bad vibes for her (and overshadowing what should be her jubilant odyssey across the pond).


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 14, 2014)

Molly Crabapple pointed out that Laurie was being a dick re: race riots on twitter. I do have slightly more respect for her than Laurie tbf. Only slightly


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 15, 2014)

copliker said:


> Rotten on all kinds of levels.




Wow. I have no idea how she continues to post stuff like that! Is she lacking in that much self-awareness.

Reminder:

Laurie Penny is...

a) white and b) going to Harvard, which means in all probability, she will not face any problems with U.S. law enforcement. Instead, an issue of police racism, militarisation and violence boils down to her own personal safety. Going to one or two Occupy protests in the past does not mean you are an expert on the above issue.

She really does not understand the black experience in the U.S.? Yes, I am going there... She needs to check her privilege. This issues goes far beyond one *unarmed* black man murdered by the police. She should read this:

Twenty unarmed black men murdered by cops in recent U.S. history:

http://www.theroot.com/photos/2014/07/unarmed_black_men_killed_by_law_enforcement.html

Or the hashtag #IfTheyGunnedMeDown - which demonstrates how black people are still regularly dehumanised and racially stereotyped.

Or when Penny tweeted "Daisy Coleman, modern feminism's Emmett Till. There is a war." She deleted and claimed that she would do better because she read about these issues online.

I mean, Christ.






Proof that an expensive education might make you all the connections but still be so dense. As someone pointed about above. Does she forget Mark Duggan? Murdered by in the same manner. Dehumanised by the media. Did Penny ever protest this injustice? Nah. Thought not.


Oh, these responses were good:






She doesn't care. The ethical brand continues to grow.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2014)

I wonder, would she call 81 and 85 race riots? Would she call 2011 race riots? An easy way to identify who is on what side someone is on is if they call those race riots.


----------



## rekil (Aug 15, 2014)

Black people protesting = mob of whitey hunters, all hopped up on goofballs. Don't be taken in by all those 'hands in the air' pics guys.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2014)

Rational political response to injustice = race riot


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 15, 2014)

Throughout our own history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_riots#United_Kingdom - look how many of these issues are caused by police actions. Or racist white groups. 

I actually agree with Crabapple on this, Penny's framing of this issue deliberately undermines the rightful public anger. There was no riot. It was people responding to more police violence in all manner of direction action.


----------



## Limerick Red (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm going to repost this here cause I think it's relevant to the latest penny whinge:

From a comrade and pal of a few people on here :

http://awatewillmakeyourlifebetter.com/blog/mark-duggan-police-being-black


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 15, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> Molly Crabapple pointed out that Laurie was being a dick re: race riots on twitter. I do have slightly more respect for her than Laurie tbf. Only slightly



i actually have even less for molly.  i think penny is just a bit of a liberal idiot promoted above her abilities and trying to please everyone all of the time.  crabapple is an exploitative libertarian pimp.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 15, 2014)

Is Laurie Penny racist?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Is Laurie Penny racist?


I personally don't think she's racist, I just think she's a bad combination of naivety and arrogance, and says things without thinking about what she saying.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 15, 2014)

I have no idea how someone with such a high profile can be so self-centred and naive on issues of race. I don't know if she is racist but how she continually manges to fuck up is astonishing.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I still claim the co-authored parody of that interview as my greatest literary achievement



Wait, what?  Has that been posted round these parts? (Just did a search now, but couldn't find anything)


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 15, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Wait, what?  Has that been posted round these parts? (Just did a search now, but couldn't find anything)




search for 'lousia pfennig' posted by Frogwoman.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 15, 2014)

I predict Laurie will be speaking with an American accent by Christmas.


----------



## Rural (Aug 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Oh god, the pretending to wear a Burkha/abaya for two weeks one. Is there any experience she can't talk for?


I think it was for a couple of hours actuality :/


----------



## Favelado (Aug 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder, would she call 81 and 85 race riots? Would she call 2011 race riots? An easy way to identify who is on what side someone is on is if they call those race riots.



Surely not 2011. She might be able to misinterpret the 80s but Laurie's house in 2011 must have had clean windows she could see through, impoverished and starving though she undoubtably was.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Aug 15, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> search for 'lousia pfennig' posted by Frogwoman.



Cheers DC - just read it now.  The penultimate sentence is textbook Penny, I mean, Pfennig.  Quality stuff


----------



## J Ed (Aug 16, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I predict Laurie will be speaking with an American accent by Christmas.



Well she already thinks that she's about to enter an episode of the Wire


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I predict Laurie will be speaking with an American accent by Christmas.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2014)

Is that the sound of a few more spokes being added to the wheel..? Time for a few of our favourite shiterati to upgrade their unpriv.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 16, 2014)

So pan sexuals are pro-gender. For now.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 16, 2014)

Like the pro race people. Gender realists.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 16, 2014)

a wonderful polysexual community. Boke.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

Swear I've seen those runes before in an Old English maunscript


----------



## weepiper (Aug 16, 2014)

Is there any way of putting normal people off something better than illustrating it with fucking Ponies?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Is there any way of putting normal people off something better than illustrating it with fucking Ponies?


Ponies _and_ unicorns


----------



## Belushi (Aug 16, 2014)

They should just get on with having sex rather than all this talking about it


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2014)

Besides, pretty sure...



weepiper said:


> ...putting normal people off...



...is one of the objectives.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

'I took Latin in high school'

yep


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2014)

Belushi said:


> They should just get on with having sex rather than all this talking about it


Asexophobe


----------



## weepiper (Aug 16, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> 'I took Latin in high school'
> 
> yep



I did. For 4 years. Classical Studies Higher too. Some state schools do offer it


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I did. For 4 years. Classical Studies Higher too. Some state schools do offer it


Ecce! Ingens polyspaston!


----------



## weepiper (Aug 16, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Ecce! Ingens polyspaston!



In pictura est puella. No, wait. In pictura est puer. No, wait.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> b) that *they* got there on merit, it was everyone else who had a silver spoon.


I once had the misfortune of studying for a Graduate Diploma in Law with a bunch of Oxbridge students. They were all convinced that (a) they had made it that far entirely on merit and (b) they would make it as a barrister entirely on merit.

It's a few years later and most of them aren't barristers (only something like one in eight trained barristers actually get tenancy). I sometimes wonder if their unshakeable belief in their own abilities has finally imploded.


----------



## Rural (Aug 16, 2014)

While I don't agree with all this,  some of this review is quite funny.  "Marx, Engels,  Penny. God help us all"
http://hurryupharry.org/2014/08/15/19th-century-marxist-mantra-in-21st-century-feminist-garb/


----------



## rekil (Aug 16, 2014)

muscovyduck 

 

The "impossible to say" martini sip smirk makes it.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> muscovyduck
> 
> View attachment 59684
> 
> The "impossible to say" martini sip smirk makes it.


Where can I retweet this picture from?


----------



## Rural (Aug 16, 2014)

Damarr said:


> I once had the misfortune of studying for a Graduate Diploma in Law with a bunch of Oxbridge students. They were all convinced that (a) they had made it that far entirely on merit and (b) they would make it as a barrister entirely on merit.
> 
> It's a few years later and most of them aren't barristers (only something like one in eight trained barristers actually get tenancy). I sometimes wonder if their unshakeable belief in their own abilities has finally imploded.


most (actually maybe all) of the richest/most privileged ppl I know r all absolutely convinced their success is entirely of their own making.  They become very vocal & defensive if this is challenged. Not sure if this is related,  maybe in terms of delusion,  but they all routinely claim poverty & complain about struggling when they r down to their last few hundred thousand. In one case when she only had £5m.  Ok everything's relative but I think I'm struggling when I literally have no food & no money for a couple of weeks & other pals regularly choose b/w feeding their children or themselves. The capacity to write ur own story is infinite


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 16, 2014)

> *Laurie Penny*  @PennyRed     ·    54m
> Colour me very unimpressed that not a single one of you showed up to the departure gate for a dramatic-music, end-of-movie scene. #*leaving*



Laurie leaves the country in a flounce...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 16, 2014)

we should have shown up and staged a series of interventions...

"oh my god, it's laurie penny!  are you leaving the country?"

"why yes, i'm going to harvard to study because i'm rilly very clever and anarchist"

"don't come back eh"


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Laurie leaves the country in a flounce...


 i think its just a joke tbf.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 16, 2014)

killer b said:


> i think its just a joke tbf.


You never can tell with her - I think deep down she would have expected a legion of adoring fans waving her off.


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2014)

you can tell. And tbh i think it pushes the thread over from 'fair comment' to 'weird' if every other innocuous tweet she sticks up is held up for disection.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

Why the fuck is everyone on this thread so obsessed with her? 286 pages about Laurie Penny!  Hardly anyone outside of urban has even heard of her she's that irrelevant. She not even the enemy ffs she's just a middle class leftie like loads of other people.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

lol


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> lol


It's fucking well weird. Like a kind of group obsession.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

all this has happened before and will happen again.


in fairness there have been many other commenteriat sorts discussed.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 16, 2014)

<sigh>

If you read the thread you'll see it's not about Laurie, it's about what Laurie is the most prominent example of, hence she gets talked about more than owen jones or paul mason or others in the commentariat. Also she's not a very good journalist whereas the other two I've just mentioned are fairly decent, so her articles tend to get more of a response. 

I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years she's no longer left wing, she seems to me to be an opportunist, she's adopted a left wing persona because there's a market for that in the current climate. On some issues (feminism, sexuality) I think she's pretty genuine, on others (protest, activism, anti-capitalism) I think she's not. But who cares really, this is about how private school/oxbridge feeds people into the media (and other parts of society, but this thread is about the media) and how this shapes society in return and why that matters. Also about how we are represented in the media and how we don't get to choose who we are represented by, but it's always oxbridge and usually private school, and never Butcher's mum.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

the last 10 pages have been somewhat penny-centric admittedly. If you add the previous thread its double the 286 at least


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> <sigh>
> 
> If you read the thread you'll see it's not about Laurie, it's about what Laurie is the most prominent example of, hence she gets talked about more than owen jones or paul mason or others in the commentariat. Also she's not a very good journalist whereas the other two I've just mentioned are fairly decent, so her articles tend to get more of a response.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years she's no longer left wing, she seems to me to be an opportunist, she's adopted a left wing persona because there's a market for that in the current climate. On some issues (feminism, sexuality) I think she's pretty genuine, on others (protest, activism, anti-capitalism) I think she's not. But who cares really, this is about how private school/oxbridge feeds people into the media (and other parts of society, but this thread is about the media) and how this shapes society in return and why that matters. Also about how we are represented in the media and how we don't get to choose who we are represented by, but it's always oxbridge and usually private school, and never Butcher's mum.


Not sure you can call twitter the media and that's where most of the shit she says seems to come from on this thread. Just… fuck there are more important people out there to be attacking than her. She's essentially on your side for fucks sake


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> it's always oxbridge and usually private school, and never Butcher's mum.


I would love butcher's mum to sign up here.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Not sure you can call twitter the media and that's where most of the shit she says seems to come from on this thread. Just… fuck there are more important people out there to be attacking than her. She's essentially on your side for fucks sake




news stateseman, new inquiry, newsnight etc


----------



## BigTom (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Not sure you can call twitter the media and that's where most of the shit she says seems to come from on this thread. Just… fuck there are more important people out there to be attacking than her. She's essentially on your side for fucks sake



Twitter is definitely part of the world of the commentariat, look at the spats that happen there between different journalists/bloggers/activists. You think that twitter isn't a space that is used to shape thought and reactions to events, in just the same way that traditional media does?
I'm not entirely convinced Laurie is essentially on our side tbh, like I said, I think she's an opportunist who will shift her political views to suit the landscape around her in terms of what she sees as being the best way to progress her journalist career.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Twitter is definitely part of the world of the commentariat, look at the spats that happen there between different journalists/bloggers/activists. You think that twitter isn't a space that is used to shape thought and reactions to events, in just the same way that traditional media does?
> I'm not entirely convinced Laurie is essentially on our side tbh, like I said, I think she's an opportunist who will shift her political views to suit the landscape around her in terms of what she sees as being the best way to progress her journalist career.



on the last point the reason the likes of owen gets a lot of leeway is precisely because he does come across as genuine. A genuine left labourite, but still...


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Twitter is definitely part of the world of the commentariat, look at the spats that happen there between different journalists/bloggers/activists. You think that twitter isn't a space that is used to shape thought and reactions to events, in just the same way that traditional media does?
> I'm not entirely convinced Laurie is essentially on our side tbh, like I said, I think she's an opportunist who will shift her political views to suit the landscape around her in terms of what she sees as being the best way to progress her journalist career.


If I asked 10 people in the street who Laurie Penny was I'd guarantee you that not a single fucking one would have a clue. Not a bloody inkling. She's irrelevant. The left just love to hate her. Why do you think that is BigTom ? That's a more interesting question.


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> <sigh>
> 
> If you read the thread...


all 200-odd pages? and the 800-odd pages of the last one? why would anyone do that, really?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2014)

masochism?


----------



## BigTom (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> If I asked 10 people in the street who Laurie Penny was I'd guarantee you that not a single fucking one would have a clue. Not a bloody inkling. She's irrelevant. The left just love to hate her. Why do you think that is BigTom ? That's a more interesting question.



Of course they wouldn't, so what? This isn't about her. It's about what she represents and what she is part of, that's not irrelevant, don't miss the wood for the trees.

Who are "the left"? Why would you bunch a group of people together like this? Clearly plenty of people who would identify as left do like laurie, you can see that every time someone criticises her and she calls out for support.

I don't hate Laurie, I don't know her. I don't like her writing or the attitude she displays on twitter and through her writing. I don't like that someone who is private school/oxbridge is represented as a genuine voice of the working class, or that she plays to this though generally couching herself as the voice of a generation or as the voice of the left. I don't like the way she attacks any criticism of her work as mysogynistic or calls other racist. I don't like the privilege politics she most strongly subscribes to.


----------



## chilango (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> If I asked 10 people in the street who Laurie Penny was I'd guarantee you that not a single fucking one would have a clue. Not a bloody inkling. She's irrelevant. The left just love to hate her. Why do you think that is BigTom ? That's a more interesting question.



It's also a question that's been answered, in some detail, on here numerous times. I'll give you a clue - the answer isn't the one you seem to be insinuating.

That said, I'm done with talking about her. Have been for a while. There nothing new, or of value, to add to what has already been said.


----------



## rekil (Aug 16, 2014)

Reliable source saying LP 'livetweeted' a protest from inside a pret a manger.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

chilango said:


> It's also a question that's been answered, in some detail, on here numerous times. I'll give you a clue - the answer isn't the one you seem to be insinuating.
> 
> That said, I'm done with talking about her. Have been for a while. There nothing new, or of value, to add to what has already been said.


Tbf no way can I be arsed to read this mammoth thread and you could of just told me rather than write that waste of a post


----------



## BigTom (Aug 16, 2014)

killer b said:


> all 200-odd pages? and the 800-odd pages of the last one? why would anyone do that, really?



Be here from the start... or as DC says. There is actually plenty of very interesting discussion amongst all of the derails and puns and trolls, but I wouldn't read it all again or if I was coming to it fresh.  
But if you want to comment on a thread as a whole, then reading it would be a good idea, no?


----------



## chilango (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Tbf no way can I be arsed to read this mammoth thread and you could of just told me rather than write that waste of a post



Nah. 

You decided to comment on what you think has been written on the thread.

Up to you whether you check the accuracy of your assertions.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> If I asked 10 people in the street who Laurie Penny was I'd guarantee you that not a single fucking one would have a clue. Not a bloody inkling. She's irrelevant. The left just love to hate her. Why do you think that is BigTom ? That's a more interesting question.



I think Tom sort of answered why her journalism (which is weak) gets slated. Her education and career trajectory is predicated on opportunities that only a minority get to enjoy, but that doesn't seem to matter. Articulating on oppression from such a vantage point comes across as either a piss-take or irrelevant given her connections and status. Left-wingery as a marketable image, rather than something that springs from genuine experience of economic or social dispossession. 

All been said before on here, tbh.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> I think Tom sort of answered why her journalism (which is weak) gets slated. Her education and career trajectory is predicated on opportunities that only a minority get to enjoy, but that doesn't seem to matter. Articulating on oppression from such a vantage point comes across as either a piss-take or irrelevant given her connections and status. Left-wingery as a marketable image, rather than something that springs from genuine experience of economic or social dispossession.
> 
> All been said before on here, tbh.


Oh god who cares. It's just not that important is it?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Why the fuck is everyone on this thread so obsessed with her? 286 pages about Laurie Penny!  Hardly anyone outside of urban has even heard of her she's that irrelevant. She not even the enemy ffs she's just a middle class leftie like loads of other people.


Oh sod off firky


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Be here from the start... or as DC says. There is actually plenty of very interesting discussion amongst all of the derails and puns and trolls, but I wouldn't read it all again or if I was coming to it fresh.
> But if you want to comment on a thread as a whole, then reading it would be a good idea, no?


Why? You can get the flavour from the last 20 pages. I don't think you can ask someone to read 1000 pages of circuitous character assassination to comment on a thread tbh. 

I agree there's some good stuff on here fwiw, but it's lost among the bile, and there's been nothing of value said in ages.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Oh sod off firky


Nah it's edie. Sorry I cba emailing editor to get him to unblock my account cos we don't get on anymore for some reason.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 16, 2014)

Equationgirl said:


> Oh sod off firky


She isn't (AFAIK)


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Oh god who cares. It's just not that important is it?





I didn't realise that importance was a requirement for discussions on here


----------



## BigTom (Aug 16, 2014)

killer b said:


> Why? You can get the flavour from the last 20 pages. I don't think you can ask someone to read 1000 pages of circuitous character assassination to comment on a thread tbh.
> 
> I agree there's some good stuff on here fwiw, but it's lost among the bile, and there's been nothing of value said in ages.



I agree about the last bit, but Nancy said that it's 286 pages of obsession over laurie, she didn't ask if it was all about laurie or if the last few pages were representative of the thread as a whole or just comment on the pages she'd read, just made a statement about the whole thread and what it's been about, that's what I meant about commenting on the thread as a whole. I don't expect someone to read it all to talk about it or ask stuff about the thread but I don't think you should comment on things you haven't read. There's obviously a lot of the character assassination stuff but it's not what the threads have been about imo.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 16, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> I didn't realise that importance was a requirement for discussions on here


well no  But I guess I think that a load of infighting in the left and eating your own tails is a real problem for the left. Nit picking all the differences and fierce arguments over the difference between the socialist workers and other niche parties that means nothing to anybody else.


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I agree about the last bit, but Nancy said that it's 286 pages of obsession over laurie, she didn't ask if it was all about laurie or if the last few pages were representative of the thread as a whole or just comment on the pages she'd read, just made a statement about the whole thread and what it's been about, that's what I meant about commenting on the thread as a whole.


I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption for her to make tbf. Either way, she's illustrated how worthless the thread is now, even if it did have a purpose at one point.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Aug 16, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> It's fucking well weird. Like a kind of group obsession.



Tweet-spotting as the new train-spotting.


----------



## Rural (Aug 16, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> I think Tom sort of answered why her journalism (which is weak) gets slated. Her education and career trajectory is predicated on opportunities that only a minority get to enjoy, but that doesn't seem to matter. Articulating on oppression from such a vantage point comes across as either a piss-take or irrelevant given her connections and status. Left-wingery as a marketable image, rather than something that springs from genuine experience of economic or social dispossession.
> 
> All been said before on here, tbh.


she's a fake. After trying to defend her for ages irl (ok on twitter) I have come to the conclusion that whatever side she's on,  it's not mine. And what she writes/says has a detrimental effect on activism.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Aug 17, 2014)

this thread had gone a bit off the rails in the last 10 pages or so...


----------



## rekil (Aug 17, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> this thread had gone a bit off the rails in the last 10 pages or so...


Just biding time until OJ's book about "the establishment" is out. And remember comrades, there are no worthless threads! Only uninspired posters!! Szybko, Do Pracy!!!


----------



## Rice & Salt (Aug 17, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> If I asked 10 people in the street who Laurie Penny was I'd guarantee you that not a single fucking one would have a clue. Not a bloody inkling. She's irrelevant. The left just love to hate her. Why do you think that is BigTom ? That's a more interesting question.



Well one reason would be the role that people like Penny play in reinforcing the narrative that left wing politics is purely the preserve of privileged middle class liberals who treat it as a hobby horse for their own self promotion. Parasites feeding of peoples genuine concerns and issues. Penny is particularly galling in that she is promoted as the 'voice' of radical politics, which is why the focus.

The one positive is, as you point out, most people don't know who the fuck these people are, at the same time some who do are put of approaching a more radical perspective on socio-economic issues because idiots like Penny are presented as the embodiment of it. Better then that penny (and others like them) get torn down from a left approach to challenge the notion that they represent anything other than their own careers and the priviledges that enable them.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Aug 17, 2014)

Yeah I do get what you mean Rice & Salt

It is fucking galling that the left has been completely hijacked by the upper middle class. The Guardian, Ed Milliband, that woman who cooks stuff for 10 p and goes busking with Billy Bragg, Billy Bragg etc (why is he so annoying lol), and I see how Laurie Penny is part of that.

And all that fucking navel gazing about split hair identity individualist politics, are you a transgendered lesbian black disabled woman cos if not I'm got more right to speak than you. All bollocks and symptomatic of the same problem of people looking at themselves and not the wider community.

I think obviously there's nothing wrong with upper middle class people being on the left, that's great, and the skills and professions they bring are necessary anyway. It's just fucking galling that sense of entitlement that they have to speak all the time. But then there's no working class people speaking louder. George Galloway I guess.

Why don't the unions kind of run Labour? People get voted up the unions and eventually into the Labour Party? That's probably a really stupid idea for lots of reasons I can't think of. It'd be better than Ed Milliband or whatever other middle class career politician in a suit stands there.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 17, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Why don't the unions kind of run Labour? People get voted up the unions and eventually into the Labour Party? That's probably a really stupid idea for lots of reasons I can't think of. It'd be better than Ed Milliband or whatever other middle class career politician in a suit stands there.



Trade Union careerist -> Labour MP was a definite career trajectory, see Jack Dromey MP for an example, Len McClusky (Unite gen sec) probably looking to do the same. Problem is that it's Ed Milliband etc that get to decide who stands as an MP (at least in winnable seats) so you're not likely to see someone like Bob Crow getting selected by them. 
Another problem is that trade union careerists suffer from many of the same issues as career politicians in that their interests become gradually more and more divorced from the interests of the people they are meant to be working for. If you want to join the elite group, you must become like them, because they won't tend to promote people who aren't like them, particularly in terms of ideas and culture. 

Anyway, plenty of tories will tell you that the unions do run Labour


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> all this has happened before and will happen again.



So it goes.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2014)




----------



## weepiper (Aug 18, 2014)

Diddums.


----------



## rekil (Aug 18, 2014)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 18, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



No longer the smartest girl in a very smart school?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2014)




----------



## weepiper (Aug 18, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



What the fuck does Jamie *I'm worth £150million* Oliver know about socialism?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 18, 2014)

weepiper said:


> What the fuck does Jamie *I'm worth £150million* Oliver know about socialism?



didn't he invent it?  isn't it something to do with throwing turkey twizzlers in the bin and shopping at sainsbury's?


----------



## 8den (Aug 18, 2014)

weepiper said:


> What the fuck does Jamie *I'm worth £150million* Oliver know about socialism?



Correction What does Jamie "I'm worth 150m and I've never finished a book" Oliver know about socialism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2014)

he tells people how to cook on a budget(like they never knew). Ergo he is vladmir illich re-incarnate


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2014)

8den said:


> Correction What does Jamie "I'm worth 150m and I've never finished a book" Oliver know about socialism.



I don't know what he knows about socialism but he has certainly patronised a fair few socialists


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> he tells people how to cook on a budget(like they never knew). Ergo he is vladmir illich re-incarnate


 
I'm imagining Lenin hosting a cooking show now. 'And today we're cooking...Borscht!'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> I'm imagining Lenin hosting a cooking show now. 'And today we're cooking...Borscht!'




_MasterlessChef_
_Great British Bukharin Off_
_Ramsey MacDonald's Kitchen Cabinet Nightmares_
_Controlling the Means of Cake Production with Prole Leith_


----------



## agricola (Aug 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> I'm imagining Lenin hosting a cooking show now. 'And today we're cooking...Borscht!'



One would probably want to avoid his Lenin Drizzle Cake, though.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2014)

The Hairy Strikers' Eurasian Adventure


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 18, 2014)

Most advanced layer (of the proletariat) cake

...bloody hell that was a hard 5 minutes' thinking


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 18, 2014)

_Beat the (egg) whites with the red whisk._


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Aug 18, 2014)

Steak and revolution


----------



## friedaweed (Aug 18, 2014)

Ready Steady Kuntz


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 18, 2014)

Kremlin brûlée


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Most advanced layer (of the proletariat) cake
> 
> ...bloody hell that was a hard 5 minutes' thinking


Intellectual labour, cme.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2014)

anyone recycling from the firebox punathon will be shot


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 18, 2014)

Stalin Tender Dumplings (pelmeni).







'Life has become better, comrades, life has become more joyful.'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 18, 2014)

*Top Tips:*


When baking a proletarian soufflé, always be careful not to allow your oven to become too kulak
Take turns to lick the bowlshevik
Avoid Sino-Soviet splits in your mayonaisse by introducing historical materialism very gradually


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 18, 2014)

Five-Step Plan to make the perfect kotleti.


----------



## Rice & Salt (Aug 18, 2014)

Trot-calate ice cream. Be careful not to pick at it too much.


----------



## co-op (Aug 18, 2014)

Always remember to convert Imperial measures *spits* into metric gramscis


----------



## Rural (Aug 18, 2014)

The Gulaging Gourmet
Showing me age a bit here!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 18, 2014)

The Fanny Cradock strike of 1970


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 18, 2014)

Laurie Penny manages to sum up in one tweet why I can't stand her shitty politics:


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 18, 2014)

aaaargh fuck off fuck off fuck off fuck off


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 18, 2014)

That Time article is written by the  geezer on the left in this scene - really - that would get me excited:


----------



## rekil (Aug 18, 2014)

Time said:
			
		

> You probably haven’t heard of the Jackson State shootings.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Laurie Penny manages to sum up in one tweet why I can't stand her shitty politics


I'd keep that to myself if I was LP. Time is a right-wing, infotainment rag.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 18, 2014)

8den said:


> Correction What does Jamie "I'm worth 150m and I've never finished a book" Oliver know about socialism.


He finished his first book last year (Catching Fire) last year - he's dyslexic.


----------



## 8den (Aug 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> He finished his first book last year (Catching Fire) last year - he's dyslexic.



So he's written more books than he's read?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 18, 2014)

And I've heard of the Kent State shootings.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2014)

niel young did a song about that massacre


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> I'm imagining Lenin hosting a cooking show now. 'And today we're cooking...Borscht!'




Ready, Steady, Communism


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 18, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> I'm imagining Lenin hosting a cooking show now. 'And today we're cooking...Borscht!'



I'll provide the pre-dinner cocktail, 'Resd Under The Bed.'

Recipe:

Put two Trots in a confined space.

Add a dash of personal falling-out dressed ups deeply-held political principles.

Stir in a large measure of careerist ambition.

Add two overblown egos.

A little vodka. 

And the chance of a lucrative career for one of them as a mainstream media talking head.

Serve with plenty of heat and just as little light, wrapped in several torn-up party cards and an unsold copy of Socialist Worker..


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 18, 2014)

8den said:


> So he's written more books than he's read?


Pretty much - he uses a dictaphone to write his books, although I suspect someone else does the transcribing.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 18, 2014)

Kent state was the one where white kids were killed. It's well remembered. The two black students killed ten days later in Jackson State College, missiissippi, protesting the Ohio killings, not remembered so well. Nor those 3 black students murdered at Orangeburg in 68.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 18, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Stalin Tender Dumplings (pelmeni).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"But what about people who don't like dumplings, like me?"

"Come the glorious day of the People's Dumpling, comrade, you'll do as your damn well told".


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 18, 2014)

Oh, and here's one you all missed:

PANNEKOEK.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 19, 2014)

Detailed analysis:


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2014)

Pausing only to name drop Ferguson ,race and riots before back to the main issue ; the pressures on her in meeting some deadline for an article. A little bit of self centreredness.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 19, 2014)

Has Penny actually expressed any genuine sympathy for Mike Brown? I think not. Imagine, highlighting a story about racial and economic disparity and making it about you because someone name dropped your book. 

Thank God she's in Harvard. She would probably be writing an article about it.


----------



## Rural (Aug 19, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Detailed analysis:



All she did in the London riots was get her friends beaten up/arrested.  So Yeh they prob were peaceful for her.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> aaaargh fuck off fuck off fuck off fuck off



Interesting how, when it suits her (and ONLY when it suits her) she includes class in her worldview.  What a fucking rotter!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 19, 2014)

Rural said:


> All she did in the London riots was get her friends beaten up/arrested.  So Yeh they prob were peaceful for her.








'Comrades! As the voice of your generation I am determined to fight to the last drop of _*your*_ blood!'


----------



## Limerick Red (Aug 19, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Detailed analysis:



For the love of Jaysus, more peaceful for who?  people being tear gassed and shot at with both live rounds and rubber bullets ?, what she means is she prefers to have her urban uprisings with a bit less looting and a few more articulate people on the telly. She is scum!


----------



## agricola (Aug 19, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> For the love of Jaysus, more peaceful for who?  people being tear gassed and shot at with both live rounds and rubber bullets ?, what she means is she prefers to have her urban uprisings with a bit less looting and a few more articulate people on the telly. She is scum!



Maybe she means that she is in Harvard this time.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 19, 2014)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...uenced-political-values-millennial-generation

should we form a Wizards Party then, to capitalise on this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 19, 2014)

well harry potter is a middle class fantasy about someone who escapes the normals and goes to a very special school.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 19, 2014)

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-po...1868939.lA-BrU&rd=1&src=newsletter1015967&t=3

*facepalm*


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 19, 2014)

Warning: the above link contains some boakworthy Democrat spam 'stand with President Obama'


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 19, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> For the love of Jaysus, more peaceful for who?  people being tear gassed and shot at with both live rounds and rubber bullets ?, what she means is she prefers to have her urban uprisings with a bit less looting and a few more articulate people on the telly. She is scum!



It's always more peaceful when the violence is so far away.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 19, 2014)

a moderately good pastiche.  http://feministsunknown.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/i-am-uberpoor/


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2014)

probably not satire http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/08/king-s-cross-derelict-wasteland-caffeinated-utopia


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 20, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> probably not satire http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/08/king-s-cross-derelict-wasteland-caffeinated-utopia


No I don't think it is. It is a bit obvious and dull in my opinion.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2014)

The author - Ed Smith - was a decent tier below world class cricketer. Seems like an alright bloke on commentaries and others reckon his books are ok. He's just that _sort of ok_ person. The main thing is that they now have another privately schooled oxbridge voice writing for them after one privately schooled oxbridge voice has crossed the water.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 20, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The author - Ed Smith - was a decent tier below world class cricketer. Seems like an alright bloke on commentaries and others reckon his books are ok. He's just that _sort of ok_ person. The main thing is that they now have another privately schooled oxbridge voice writing for them after one privately schooled oxbridge voice has crossed the water.


Did you read what I assume is her last column for them, on white knights and feminism?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 21, 2014)

Wow.

I _almost_ stopped reading after the first paragraph.



> I would like to apologise to my long-suffering editor. This column is coming in late. I have been busy, you see, sexually servicing all the men and boys who express feminist sentiments in public. Some people have suggested that this idea – that men only treat women as human beings in order to get laid – is venal propaganda cooked up by paranoid chauvinists to explain away the growing army of men who are proud to support women’s crazy ambitions to gain basic respect and equality. But no. It’s all true. I haven’t slept properly in four years. I hear that Germaine Greer hasn’t slept since 1981. I’m working through the backlog by consuming enormous stockpiles of coffee but the queue is long and it’s getting longer every day, so please bear with me.



She might as well have just wrote "I am on the internet and I'm a woman, I have sex LOL" 



> The most heroic thing you can do as a man today is to risk your own social status to do what you know is right



Yes the most heroic thing you can do today is argue with misogynist 13 year olds on the internet and get called a white knight and a 'fag'. Jesus. Her writing gets worse and worse, this would be alright if she was a 13 year old writing on tumblr for an audience of one but she gets paid for this shit.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 21, 2014)

LP's final NS column for a year. Rather painfully late to the topic of Ferguson. Still lacking any self-awareness:

"I am struggling to hear the radio report over the industrial roar of an espresso machine and the smooth jazz drifting in through speakers. I am sitting in a hipster café in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The girl at the next table over from me has no idea where Ferguson is, or what is happening there, despite the battle for her country’s soul going on 1,200 miles away in the Midwest. She was unaware, until I brought it up in conversation, that on 9 August, an unarmed African-American teenager had been shot and killed by police. Outside, on a balmy, late-summer morning in a mainly white university town, with no police on the streets, life goes on as normal. Please repeat – this is America."

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-a...oot-unarmed-black-man-six-times-and-then-call

Then we move onto London...

"In Britain, we’ve seen this already. Almost exactly three years before the Ferguson protests broke out, the Metropolitan Police shot and killed an unarmed man, Mark Duggan, in Tottenham, north London. Peaceful demonstrations turned into several days of pandemonium as young people came out to loot shops and fight the police. Thousands of arrests were made and the government was hours away from sending in the army.

The protests in Ferguson are different in many ways from the 2011 English riots but there are also disturbing similarities: in August 2011, the official story was that the civil disorder had nothing to do with “real” politics, nothing to do with racist policing and repression. It was – in the words of the Home Secretary – “pure criminality”. It had nothing to do with class, or austerity, or the racial prejudice baked into both of those axes of oppression. Law enforcement was justified in making mass arrests and using extreme force to bring the situation under control – the only response to civil breakdown, then as now, was to bring in the big guns. And, as with the situation in Ferguson, everything hung on the character of the deceased."

Interesting how she frames the London protest as looting and fighting the police. She then labels it a "riot" before qualifying her remarks with a sentence about austerity and police racism. 

Also "fighting the police" de-legitimises how the police first murdered Mark Duggan (which she correctly highlighted) and then a 16-year-old protester outside Tottenham Police Station is attacked, after around 100 people peacefully protested and were largely ignored by the police shortly after the shooting. Years of institutional police racism, stop and search, harassment is reduced to a sentence. Yes, it's not about London, she's trying to make a broader point about U.S. society, using her days of experience in a country, with a complex history of race problems.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The author - Ed Smith - was a decent tier below world class cricketer. Seems like an alright bloke on commentaries and others reckon his books are ok. He's just that _sort of ok_ person. The main thing is that they now have another privately schooled oxbridge voice writing for them after one privately schooled oxbridge voice has crossed the water.


A lot of his articles for Cricinfo are pretty good IMO, but as you say totally from the right sort of background.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 22, 2014)

Apparently I 'was born to Ray Barnett'- dear Wikipedia, wonderful as my dad was, the family confirms that he did not actually give birth
 *john locke* ‏@*jlocke13* 2h

@*PennyRed* "born to" not "born by"..did you do English GCSE..?
*Expand Collapse *



 *Laurie Penny* ‏@*PennyRed* 2h
.@*jlocke13* actually I got the top mark in English GCSE nationally


She's the best at English 'nationally'. Actually. Actually.

Hope this will be my last post on the subject of Penny. If true, why brag about such a thing? What on earth does it matter? Especially in some twitter beef over spelling with someone calling themselves John Locke? What a dick. And so needy.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 22, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Apparently I 'was born to Ray Barnett'- dear Wikipedia, wonderful as my dad was, the family confirms that he did not actually give birth
> *john locke* ‏@*jlocke13* 2h
> 
> @*PennyRed* "born to" not "born by"..did you do English GCSE..?
> ...



And you just know this Locke guy has named himself after the Lost character, not the philosopher.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2014)

Nor the rotund tenor.

edit: drat, thought this twitterer was called Jo.


----------



## rekil (Aug 22, 2014)

There is a Student Grant where he does this - goes through all his GCSE results. I can't remember if there was an 'actually'


----------



## killer b (Aug 22, 2014)

I don't want to talk about the stupid shit she comes out with anymore, but that is ridiculous. Also considering the separate exam boards not even possible I'd imagine.


----------



## rekil (Aug 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nor the rotund tenor.
> 
> edit: drat, thought this twitterer was called Jo.


Played at my grandmother's funeral.


----------



## rekil (Aug 22, 2014)

Love A Good Plagiarism Row.




			
				Washington Post said:
			
		

> Columns by CNN host Fareed Zakaria, who was disciplined after a plagiarism controversy two years ago, are under scrutiny after new accusations from an anonymous Internet watchdog that says he copied passages from other writers’ work.
> 
> The questions were raised Tuesday by the site Our Bad Media, which exposed Buzzfeed’s Benny Johnson as a serial plagiarist in July, leading to his dismissal. The site posted 12 examples from Zakaria columns that it said echo facts or passages from other sources without proper attribution.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 22, 2014)

Is anyone even defending her anymore? Serious question


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 22, 2014)

Christ. Helen Lewis asks why isn't there a left wing version of UKIP? NS is the public toilet of British political journalism. 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...abour-big-issues-so-why-isn-t-there-ukip-left


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 22, 2014)

some sort of socialism but nationalist


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2014)

Chuck - you about? Have you been playing the long game here?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> Love A Good Plagiarism Row.


Once you've read one plagiarism row, you have a nagging suspicion that you've read every plagiarism row.


----------



## Ole (Aug 23, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> Is anyone even defending her anymore? Serious question


Would love to literally attack anyone who does tbh.


----------



## Rural (Aug 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> I don't want to talk about the stupid shit she comes out with anymore, but that is ridiculous. Also considering the separate exam boards not even possible I'd imagine.


I'd b shocked* if she turned out to be lying
*totally unsurprised. Actually.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm looking for the Oxford Union etc stuff, and I've found a transcript of what she said in the old thread (here). Does anyone know where Sihhi found it from?  I'll keep looking but the whole topic is difficult to find much about.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 24, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> I'm looking for the Oxford Union etc stuff, and I've found a transcript of what she said in the old thread (here). Does anyone know where Sihhi found it from?  I'll keep looking but the whole topic is difficult to find much about.


Knowing sihhi, i reckon he watched the vid and wrote it down. At least that part. He doesn't post here anymore and i've lost his number, otherwise i'd ask - maybe Spanky Longhorn  or some one has it?


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Knowing sihhi, i reckon he watched the vid and wrote it down. At least that part. He doesn't post here anymore and i've lost his number, otherwise i'd ask - maybe Spanky Longhorn  or some one has it?


It didn't even occur to me to check Youtube for the video. I'm such an idiot.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

THERE'S A PROLETARIAN DEMOCRACY YOUTUBE ACCOUNT. omg


----------



## Favelado (Aug 24, 2014)

> I am struggling to hear the radio report over the industrial roar of an espresso machine and the smooth jazz drifting in through speakers. I am sitting in a hipster café in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The girl at the next table over from me has no idea where Ferguson is, or what is happening there, despite the battle for her country’s soul going on 1,200 miles away in the Midwest. She was unaware, until I brought it up in conversation, that on 9 August, an unarmed African-American teenager had been shot and killed by police. Outside, on a balmy, late-summer morning in a mainly white university town, with no police on the streets, life goes on as normal. Please repeat – this is America.



It's gone from annoying to brilliant now. I loved that paragraph. Impossible to do a spoof version of that. It's perfect.​


----------



## rekil (Aug 24, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> I'm looking for the Oxford Union etc stuff, and I've found a transcript of what she said in the old thread (here). Does anyone know where Sihhi found it from?  I'll keep looking but the whole topic is difficult to find much about.


Looks like it was taken down. Dead link here. And Private on the oxford union youtube channel. 

But...PD have a copy in the vaults. Big data ftw.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> Looks like it was taken down. Dead link here. And Private on the oxford union youtube channel.
> 
> But...PD have a copy in the vaults. Big data ftw.


That's interesting. Wonder why it got taken down?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> That's interesting. Wonder why it got taken down?


Don't mess with Skull & Bones


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Don't mess with Skull & Bones


Pirates?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> Pirates?


LIZARDS!


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> LIZARDS!


Icke?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 24, 2014)

The smug faces of the enemy


----------



## rekil (Aug 24, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> That's interesting. Wonder why it got taken down?


Some say it burned a red pen of justice shaped hole right through the internet.


----------



## fogbat (Aug 24, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The smug faces of the enemy








Why?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2014)

J Ed said:


>


Cloth ears


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Chuck - you about? Have you been playing the long game here?



The unseen hand of the underhand left of the motor of history


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 24, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> The unseen hand of the underhand left of the motor of history


ISIS of the left.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> ISIS of the left.


Still though a UKIP of the left  would call for an international brigade to fight ISIS was the right line. Cockers where art thou ?


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The smug faces of the enemy



I thought you'd photoshopped this but it's a real photo?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 24, 2014)

is that lezzard as who, wtf man


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 24, 2014)

hang on theres no shadows. ye shoppe


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 24, 2014)

muscovyduck said:


> I thought you'd photoshopped this but it's a real photo?


It's from here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...e-penny-and-nicholas-lezard-debate-doctor-who


----------



## JimW (Aug 24, 2014)

So the New Statesman now publishes two flatmates blethering about what's on telly? Bet the subscribers are rushing to renew. Still, keeps them off serious subjects.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 24, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The smug faces of the enemy



Jesus Fucking Christ


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> hang on theres no shadows. ye shoppe


Nah there's a small shadow under her foot. Probably taken with overcast weather?


----------



## Ole (Aug 25, 2014)

Favelado said:


> It's gone from annoying to brilliant now. I loved that paragraph. Impossible to do a spoof version of that. It's perfect.​


Private school and Oxford education produced that shower ffs.

*That *apparently qualified for postgraduate Harvard   FFS. Sort of wrong uns are they letting in?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 25, 2014)

Ole said:


> Sort of wrong uns are they letting in?



http://nieman.harvard.edu/newsitem.aspx?id=100261


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


>



SMUGGEST MAGIC ACT IN VERY MAGICAL VEGAS - TICKETS NOW AVAILABLE


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 25, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> It's from here:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...e-penny-and-nicholas-lezard-debate-doctor-who


----------



## captainmission (Aug 25, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> It's from here:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...e-penny-and-nicholas-lezard-debate-doctor-who



My favourite part of the article is the advert at the top






If only they'd accept their natural constituency isn't rioters and the underclass- but the sort of twat that would spend £70 on a bit of cloth


----------



## J Ed (Aug 25, 2014)

captainmission said:


> If only they'd accept their natural constituency isn't rioters and the underclass- but the sort of twat that would spend £70 on a bit of cloth



I saw an H&M advert for a cape the other day and wondered who would buy something like that, I have just suddenly realised who - NS readers


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 25, 2014)

vapid toss of an article. Lezzard chips in that Who is 'homeric'

wanker


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 25, 2014)

captainmission said:


> My favourite part of the article is the advert at the top
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see any ads


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 26, 2014)

Lezard looks like a "pick-up artist" - the sort of man who does ham-fisted coin tricks and carries rohypnol in his wallet.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> vapid toss of an article. Lezzard chips in that Who is 'homeric'
> 
> wanker



In fairness, legends of the Doctor have been passed down orally through the recitation of verse epics around the tribal campfires.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 26, 2014)

captainmission said:


> My favourite part of the article is the advert at the top
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They also regularly run ads for Lock & Co, Hatters.  Their hats (as opposed to caps) start at about a ton and a half for off the peg.  Way too expensive for a Fedora-fancier like me.


----------



## Rural (Aug 26, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I saw an H&M advert for a cape the other day and wondered who would buy something like that, I have just suddenly realised who - NS readers


i made a *bat-cape* when i was 13 in needlework at school.  to the horror of my domestic science teacher.  it was tartan too.  god knows what i was thinking. but yeh i guess im the sort of person who'd wear a cape.  at age 13 anyway


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 27, 2014)

cape-wearers


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2014)

a cape is just a poor mans cloak. We should bring back cloaks.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> a cape is just a poor mans cloak. We should bring back cloaks.



i had a woolen poncho for a week, when i was a teenage crusty.  it was a bad look even by my long history of bad looks.  it is almost impossible to eat or drink whilst wearing a woolen poncho, without spilling food down your front.  combine this with living in a squatted dairy in midwinter and the crust really builds up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 27, 2014)

_I’ve just taken a call from a shadow cabinet adviser who asked me whether I’d seen the Daily Politics, with Owen Jones and Labour MP Simon Danczuk crossing swords over welfare. I said I had. (Owen got a proper shoeing from the Honourable Member for Rochdale, by the way.)


“Well, Simon’s going to find he’s in trouble for that. Ed’s office have told people we’re not allowed to criticise Owen Jones,” they said. So I checked with another shadow cabinet source, and it’s true. Apparently, Owen Jones is the Labour Party equivalent of a “Made Man”.


For those not aware, a “Made Man” is a form of honorary status bestowed on members of the Mafia, which means they cannot be harmed in any way unless official sanction has been granted from on high. And amazingly, similar status has been granted to *the Justin Bieber of the Left*.


“We’ve been told Ed wants to be seen leading a broad coalition,” says the second source. “We’ve all been instructed we can’t debate Owen Jones, and we can’t criticise him. We’ve been warned attacking him would be the equivalent of friendly fire.” [etc]_​http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...bands-labour-is-running-scared-of-owen-jones/

HT: Bone


----------



## rekil (Aug 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> The smug faces of the enemy


 It's a little bit #everydaysexism so it is. How come the Lez gets to be the doctor? All that genderqueering malarkey doesn't amount to much when it comes down to it does it?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> a cape is just a poor mans cloak. We should bring back cloaks.


Cloaks can make good blankets for picnics and travelling, less good if you need to run for the bus or train; the drag factor is ridiculous.


----------



## Sue (Aug 27, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ow-power-works-in-britain-elites-stranglehold

'In an exclusive extract from his new book, Owen Jones explains how the political, social and business elites have a stranglehold on the country.' Enjoy.


----------



## Sue (Aug 27, 2014)

Bumper day for it from Owen Jones. 

'It says all too much about the narrowing of democracy that those presented as outsiders are the establishment in undiluted form. '

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/27/boris-johnson-farage-mavericks-politics


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's a little bit #everydaysexism so it is. How come the Lez gets to be the doctor? All that genderqueering malarkey doesn't amount to much when it comes down to it does it?



I was thinking that myself. What happened to women 'writing their own narratives' and not being sidekicks in men's ones? Say it aint so Laurie!


----------



## flypanam (Aug 28, 2014)

Laurie's 'Why I write' from Aussie journal, Overland.

https://overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-216/feature-laurie-penny/

_"I have been lonely all my life; I was born that way. Everybody told me it would stop when I grew up and made friends, but everybody was wrong. I can be lonely in the middle of a crowded dance floor with a bass line shuddering my bare skin."_


----------



## Limerick Red (Aug 28, 2014)

flypanam said:


> _". I can be lonely in the middle of a crowded dance floor with a bass line shuddering my bare skin."_


Bwahahaha , ah she got us!she had us all goin' for a few years there.... We've all just being punk'd by Laurie.... It was all a wind up...see!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 28, 2014)

flypanam said:


> _"I have been lonely all my life; I was born that way. Everybody told me it would stop when I grew up and made friends, but everybody was wrong. I can be lonely in the middle of a crowded dance floor with a bass line shuddering my bare skin."_



Hyperbole Alert.


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2014)

captainmission said:


> My favourite part of the article is the advert at the top
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 the ads are targetted based on_ your_ search history rather than being specific for the NS. Think you've given yourself away there...


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 28, 2014)

> Nor does it include the internet itself, which contains at least 4.3 billion pages, some of which are _many hundreds of thousands of words long_.



Or just seem like it.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2014)

flypanam said:


> Laurie's 'Why I write' from Aussie journal, Overland.
> 
> https://overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-216/feature-laurie-penny/
> 
> _"I have been lonely all my life; I was born that way. Everybody told me it would stop when I grew up and made friends, but everybody was wrong. I can be lonely in the middle of a crowded dance floor with a bass line shuddering my bare skin."_



to be fair to her, i could have written that in my 20s.  only the article would have been called "Why I Took Drugs".


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

orwells 'why I write' starts similar.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

Mensch is openly making up quotes from UKIP defector carswell today:

*Louise Mensch* @LouiseMensch
Carswell's own blog "Only by voting Conservative can you get a realistic chance of leaving the EU" talkcarswell.com/home/2775

The site actually says:



> By voting for the Conservatives, we stand a realistic chance of being out in 40 months' time.



Did the poor girl not learn what quotes are from private school and and an english lit degree from oxbridge?


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 28, 2014)

Speaking of shit writers, here's the latest from Crabapple:

http://www.vice.com/read/we-must-risk-delight-after-a-summer-full-of-monsters


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Mensch is openly making up quotes from UKIP defector carswell today:
> 
> *Louise Mensch* @LouiseMensch
> Carswell's own blog "Only by voting Conservative can you get a realistic chance of leaving the EU" talkcarswell.com/home/2775
> ...


It would appear not, clearly a privileged education is not as good as one acquired in the state system. I got taught how to quote correctly and accurately from 12 iirc. She obviously didn't.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Speaking of shit writers, here's the latest from Crabapple:
> 
> http://www.vice.com/read/we-must-risk-delight-after-a-summer-full-of-monsters



can you precis it so i don't have to read that nonsense?


----------



## rekil (Aug 28, 2014)

> I was in Sweden. The country's neat politeness made an obscene contrast to social media, where the stream showed police rampaging in Ferguson, Missouri.



Swedish police hunt for neat polite gunmen targeting immigrants

'We can't rule out a neater politer Swedish Breivik': MP

Neat and usually polite riot police 'resorted to racial slurs' in Husby





el-ahrairah said:


> can you precis it so i don't have to read that nonsense?


"Stuff made me do an epic sad, (buy my rotten drawings)"


----------



## JimW (Aug 28, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Speaking of shit writers, here's the latest from Crabapple:
> 
> http://www.vice.com/read/we-must-risk-delight-after-a-summer-full-of-monsters


Paul Mason tweeted a link to that (that I didn't follow I hasten to add). He's fallen in with a bad crowd, sobering warning.of where prolonged exposure to the commentariat leads you.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> can you precis it so i don't have to read that nonsense?


It's shit, but there's a picture.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 28, 2014)

I'll save you reading Crabapple's piece:

James Foley was a beautiful man. Sorry he is dead. I found out via Skype.

I like visiting Sweden. I am oblivious to its racism and neo-Nazi problem - or the police running over an anti-Nazi protester or charging them on horses.

Black people murdered by racist cops in America. But at least I offered bail funds. Protests in Ferguson. Is my whiteness = complicity?

IDF bombing Gaza. As an American I could not look away at the horror. As an American, am I complicit?

"Journalism often feels like vampirism." Am I also a vampire?

"Writing about others' trauma bears no relation to living it. Yet I was a ruin more and more." People were murdered but I felt just as bad.

Don't know how to write about happiness. Rain once washed flowers out my hair. I danced on regardless.

I read a good poem. Reminded me about good and bad in world.

Capitalism and a Hurricane ruined a place I liked to visit as a child. Poetic prose explains its decline as adult.

Beauty exists in bad places.

Beauty is worth fighting for.


----------



## rekil (Aug 28, 2014)

"I backed the racist murderers in Venezuela but I think I got away with it."


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2014)

http://www.vice.com/read/lulz-and-leg-irons-in-the-courtroom-with-weev




			
				Crabapple said:
			
		

> Four hours earlier, we'd been downing whiskey to celebrate Weev's last night of freedom. His party took over the sort of fantasy loft that woos broke artists over to Newark. Journalists drank alongside hackers, activists, eyepatch-wearing documentarians, and candy-haired girls with lip rings. A lanky, lovely security expert swung from a rope. Livestreamer Tim Pool twittered that "all the little red dots on the government monitor are in the same room."  Weev spent the night answering a Reddit AMA.


That's this pathetic cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

That's pretty damning. I'm going to go full _racist prick._


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2014)

Hang on, that doesn't show the rest of the thread; banging on about jews, black breeding and miscegenation. This should do it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Entrepreneurs to the rescue!


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2014)

It doesn't get more Vice than that really.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 29, 2014)

Who is this rancid creep?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

I think we got a new friend - let's forget laurie.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think we got a new friend - let's forget laurie.


Aye.


----------



## benedict (Aug 29, 2014)

Before forgetting, this is absolutely priceless:


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 29, 2014)

oh fuck off


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

I'd say Penny was beyond parody but that statement has lost all meaning with her. Penny follows Auernheimer (and I assume Crabapple does too) and yet both are of Jewish descent but can seemingly follow someone who paranoidly rants about 'The Jews'.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

Nice Thor's hammer, racist dickhead


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)




----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> http://www.vice.com/read/lulz-and-leg-irons-in-the-courtroom-with-weev
> 
> 
> That's this pathetic cunt.




The only broke artist we know is Stanley .what sort of loft would woo him?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 29, 2014)

> Journalists drank alongside hackers, activists, eyepatch-wearing documentarians, and candy-haired girls with lip rings.


and I bet every single one of them went to a fee-paying school


> "all the little red dots on the government monitor are in the same room."


aye right. You wish.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)




----------



## weepiper (Aug 29, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>



Wow, he really is filth. Gun job.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 29, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Wow, he really is filth. Gun job.


Twenty years shovelling shit in one of Uncle Joe's holiday camps. Then the gun job.

Does Laurie P really follow this shit?


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2014)

Huh? Penny "follows" a Nazi writer for Vice?



I'm lost.

As an aside I know/knew someone who works at/for Vice. Nice kid. Incredibly privileged and expensively educated though.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

Quite an infamous online 'troll' which means some are happy to excuse his overtly racist views: https://medium.com/matter/the-martyrdom-of-weev-9e72da8a133d


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 29, 2014)

benedict said:


> Before forgetting, this is absolutely priceless:




"Do you know who I am..?"

Yes, Penny Dreadful, we do. You build your 'ethical brand' by running stories about benefit claimants threatening suicide even when professionals have expressly advised you not to run the story in question.

A most apposite demonstration of your idea of press ethics, as far as I can see.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)




----------



## weepiper (Aug 29, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>





I suppose it's no surprise they're the way they are when they surround themselves with such craven sycophants.


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Twenty years shovelling shit in one of Uncle Joe's holiday camps. Then the gun job.
> 
> Does Laurie P really follow this shit?


Radical ethical personal brand building journo, you had one job.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

*grabs popcorn*


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2014)

I might spend the next few weeks learning how to mimic Molly's drawing style. Had a quick go recently, it's pretty easy.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

chilango said:


> I might spend the next few weeks learning how to mimic Molly's drawing style. Had a quick go recently, it's pretty easy.


Don't you just do blurry lines and naff vicrtoriana? And round curvy bits?


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> *grabs popcorn*


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Don't you just do blurry lines and naff vicrtoriana? And round curvy bits?



I think their the bits I need to practise!



chilango said:


> ...and I'm still playing around with the self-portrait.
> 
> View attachment 57154


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 29, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Twenty years shovelling shit in one of Uncle Joe's holiday camps. Then the gun job.



It wouldn't be pretty, that's for sure.






After 8 years.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 29, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> It wouldn't be pretty, that's for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where'd you find this one? (genuine question)


----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> *grabs popcorn*




I get the impression Whelan reads Urban a decent amount


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I get the impression Whelan reads Urban a decent amount


He does more than read - don't you lazyhack?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Radical ethical personal brand building journo, you had one job.
> 
> 
> View attachment 60205


 
woah, they really do stick together.  i can't believe even she would uncritically support that scumbag.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He does more than read - don't you lazyhack?


Butchers. I am a journalism person at the News. Please do not lecture me on lurking.


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2014)

chilango said:


> I might spend the next few weeks learning how to mimic Molly's drawing style. Had a quick go recently, it's pretty easy.


Dunno much about art, but she already looks doomed to repeat herself. Her agent retweeted me for suggesting she's having a go at being the new banksy. As an aside, I'm pretty sure that if we put on an exhibition of PD art and we used naked women in baths to promote it, we'd get in trouble.


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> Dunno much about art, but she already looks doomed to repeat herself. Her agent retweeted me for suggesting she's having a go at being the new banksy. As an aside, I'm pretty sure that if we put on an exhibition of PD art and we used naked women in baths to promote it, we'd get in trouble.



Well...she obviously has a certain amount of skill in her drawing/draughtsmanship and the style she works in is ideally suited to illustration. But it's far from great art.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 29, 2014)

weepiper said:


> aye right. You wish.


I can easily imagine a panel discussion on state repression in which Crabapple et al would talk over someone who had spent years in Gitmo.

'I have to live with my tweets being monitored.'


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

Penny's now manually replying to people who linked to her Harvard tweet:


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 29, 2014)

Commentariat credentialgeddon!


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

Check your credentials.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

Too good:


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

Other journo's not happy with Penny:


----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

I love the idea that you need to go to Harvard to find out that you shouldn't lie about what others have said, most people learn that that is wrong when they compulsively lie as a toddler and are corrected by their parents. Evidently Penny's rich lawyer parents never told her that lying is wrong so now she has to go to Harvard where she will, uhh.. I actually have no idea, find out better ways to justify her behaviour?

Oh look, everyone who points this out is a misogynist, surprising






...wouldn't that make her attacks on Nesrine Malik racist?


----------



## YouSir (Aug 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I love the idea that you need to go to Harvard to find out that you shouldn't lie about what others have said, most people learn that that is wrong when they compulsively lie as a toddler and are corrected by their parents. Evidently Penny's rich lawyer parents never told her that lying is wrong so now she has to go to Harvard where she will, uhh.. I actually have no idea, find out better ways to justify her behaviour?



You miss the point, it's like that M&S ad - you may think that you're honest and ethical but you're still not _commentariat _honest and ethical. Don't worry, few years at Harvard will sort that right out. Or just wait til Laurie Penny graduates and she'll no doubt explain it all to you in a concise and not at all egotistical article.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)




----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

Imagine if she didn't choose her words carefully


----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

Laurie Penny worked hard to get her fellowship at Harvard, just like any other brightest girl at smart private school could, nasty neoliberal ideas about 'choice' just drip from everything she writes.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 29, 2014)

Her tweets with Nesrine are so revealing. She has really internalised any criticism as something more sinister. Not to mention arrogant in the first place to use her privilege to shut down debate and then name search herself to defend it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

All that said, nesrine malik can get to fuck as well.




			
				malik said:
			
		

> Taking a risk and earning commensurate reward on the either the perspicacity or audacity of the stake is the cornerstone of the globalised economy of opportunity in which we live.



I really wanted to avoid penny as well, but that tweet is just so perfect. It needs repeating i think:


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 29, 2014)

what happens if you critique her support for the nazi?  i'd like to see her justifications for that?


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> what happens if you critique her support for the nazi?  i'd like to see her justifications for that?


They'd most likely claim he's not a real racist on the grounds that they've met him and he's a l33t irony fuelled h@x0r, who's just trolling you sheeple for lulz.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> They'd most likely claim he's not a real racist on the grounds that they've met him and he's a l33t irony fuelled h@x0r, who's just trolling you sheeple for lulz.


 
possibly.  though i believe LP has written articles about sexism in internetland and concluded that it still isn't acceptable.

i'd like to see their excuses / explanations for thinking a self-described National Socialist is the doberman's twitcher.

post-racism


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 29, 2014)

vice really is a shit outfit, the nadir of app-for-that fuck haired ironical posturing content to flirt with any nazi/gun/cannibal/racist shit cos you know..its cool man, retweet this shit. May they burn


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> what happens if you critique her support for the nazi?  i'd like to see her justifications for that?


 
Well, I did ask her about her quoting from a conversation she had with Anna Span at some porn award ceremony, only for Ms Span herself to go on Twitter and ask why she was being quoted in a conversation she didn't have at an event she didn't actually attend.

No answer, oddly.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 29, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> app-for-that fuck haired ironical posturing



Ten points & a ‘Highly Commended’ certificate for you, sir


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Laurie Penny worked hard to get her fellowship at Harvard, just like any other brightest girl at smart private school could, nasty neoliberal ideas about 'choice' just drip from everything she writes.


Did she? I thought a load of her luvvie mates who don't pay much attention just signed a letter recommending her?

She should call the next book; "I'm sorry", it seems she gets to have her privilege cake and eat it too, so long as she says sorry the whole time.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> Did she? I thought a load of her luvvie mates who don't pay much attention just signed a letter recommending her?
> 
> She should call the next book; "I'm sorry", it seems she gets to have her privilege cake and eat it too, so long as she says sorry the whole time.



I wasn't being serious, I'm sure you are right, but she behaves as if that is what happened. BTW I don't see many examples of her acknowledging her class privilege, white privilege sometimes maybe...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 29, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> Did she? I thought a load of her luvvie mates who don't pay much attention just signed a letter recommending her?



Including Emily Bell, who I had always thought was a good egg


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 29, 2014)

Any criticism of LP just highlights how sexist and horrible the person criticising her is.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 29, 2014)

Follow


*Laurie PennyVerified account*‏@*PennyRed*
@*NesrineMalik* I don't think you're a troll. I think you're giving ammunition to trolls.


...Criticising her in any way equates to giving aid and comfort to the enemy. So don't do it! Just applaud, it's what she demands...


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Where'd you find this one? (genuine question)



Isaiah Oggins.  I stumbled upon him after reading about Soviet mugshots.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Isaiah Oggins.  I stumbled upon him after reading about Soviet mugshots.



http://www.thelostspy.com/

A fascinating read.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 30, 2014)

It irritates me to constantly reference Penny, but I cannot escape how she is a) unable to understand why people were critical of her Harvard comment and b) makes herself the victim....again. She's obviously not deserving of some the more visceral misogyny. But to blame the way she went after people yesterday for calling her out on 4 years of abuse is a weak excuse.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 30, 2014)

she really really really should get off twitter.  it's a terrible place for people who can't take criticism, whether that criticism is justified or not. it would do wonders for her mental health.  sadly it probably wouldn't improve the quality of her politics, writing, or base humanity.


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> she really really really should get off twitter.  it's a terrible place for people who can't take criticism, whether that criticism is justified or not. it would do wonders for her mental health.  sadly it probably wouldn't improve the quality of her politics, writing, or base humanity.



I was thinking that earlier.

I wonder how many others who've fully committed themselves into "building their personal brand through social media" are beginning to find that they've lost control of it?


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 30, 2014)

Yeah the problem of basing your politics on twitter call-outs is it's very easy to be hoist by your own petard


----------



## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

chilango said:


> I wonder how many others who've fully committed themselves into "building their personal brand through social media" are beginning to find that they've lost control of it?



I have zero sympathy, she has a world of other options and this is the path she has chosen. She can get off at any time, or at least stop behaving as appallingly, but she doesn't.


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I have zero sympathy, she has a world of other options and this is the path she has chosen. She can get off at any time, or at least stop behaving as appallingly, but she doesn't.



Y'see I don't think she can. Same with the rest of commentariat. Social media is her platform, where she builds her platform, her audience and sustains her exposure. She leaves, she disappears into obscurity. Same with all the others. 

No sympathy, that's the game she chose play. But I don't think she has much choice anymore.


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2014)

...I also don't think she's quite privileged enough to just jack in journalism and waltz into some other career.

She appears very insecure about her status, hence the constant credential flaunting and name dropping.

There's plenty like her coming out of the private school system, coming out without quite enough social capital to ensure a smooth realisation of their raised expectations. These are also often the types to be keenest to rip up the ladder of social mobility to prevent others of their ilk coming along and providing competition for their "hard won" status.

At least in comparison with their more secure peers.

I chuckle to myself when these types are forced deal with the likes of me as "an equal" professionally or socially.

*I meet too many posh people in my life*


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2014)

Elisabeth Violet


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Yeah the problem of basing your politics career on twitter call-outs is it's very easy to be hoist by your own petard



Fixed for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> vice really is a shit outfit, the nadir of app-for-that fuck haired ironical posturing content to flirt with any nazi/gun/cannibal/racist shit cos you know..its cool man, retweet this shit. May they burn



Probably the only reason they haven't done a feature on "paedo" hairdos is because most of their staff have such coiffures.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 30, 2014)

Now is a good time for her to walk away from Twitter, seeing as she's about to start her course at Harvard. She won't have time to keep up with it soon anyway.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 30, 2014)

Her behaviour on Twitter is pretty routine:

Writes/makes controversial statement (closest thing to the trans movement without being trans/Harvard credentials):

Receives a lot of justified criticism (and some not) given the big profile she has. Instead of an exercise in humility and learning - it's "I'll try harder next time" or "I'm getting bullied and harassed, send love." It's amazing how she's not learnt anything from her past fallouts. She's her own worst enemy in that sense.

I think she's tone deaf to how people *actually* perceive her tweets/behaviour/writing. Very insecure about Harvard - she snapped at Nesrine Malik for suggesting she did not deserve to be there (which was not the case at all).

I know Twitter has a function now that notify's you if someone links to one of your tweets but the way she went after people yesterday was so embarrassing. She does not deserve a lot of the abuse but imagine playing on people's good nature to generate book sales?

Hopefully Harvard means she'll re-evaluate her attitude and the way she uses things like Twitter. Lose the vanity. Learn humility. Actually learn from the people who try to teach about her identity politics (as she's so insistent on it). She probably won't though. I'm probably some awful, shitty women hater for writing this now. Just another elitist bubble. 

I don't dislike Penny in a lot of ways. She is just utterly naive about a lot of the world and has shitty politics. No malice. But as others say, when you approach Twitter in a certain way, don't expect to not be hoisted by your own petard.

I'm tired of writing about her. I will continue to critique her politics and laugh at her Harvard-style tweets. But unless either of the two happen, this will hopefully be the last thing I say about her.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 30, 2014)

She's like a stick figure in a cartoon that's not even about her.


----------



## rekil (Aug 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>



This really needs some of yer man's racist blurtings scrawled all over it twirly style.


----------



## Theisticle (Aug 30, 2014)

Ugh, fuck off.


----------



## Ole (Aug 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> It irritates me to constantly reference Penny, but I cannot escape how she is a) unable to understand why people were critical of her Harvard comment and b) makes herself the victim....again. She's obviously not deserving of some the more visceral misogyny. But to blame the way she went after people yesterday for calling her out on 4 years of abuse is a weak excuse.






The state of this fucking middle-class whinger. I could vomit.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

Serious Q: has Laurie ever had a proper job?

I don't mean to minimise what I'm sure has been an immense trauma for her over the past few days in Harvard, but I love the idea of her behaving like she does currently in a normal prole job where you can't blame your fuck ups on 'trolls' and a 'campaign of abuse'.


----------



## Ole (Aug 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Serious Q: has Laurie ever had a proper job?
> 
> I don't mean to minimise what I'm sure has been an immense trauma for her over the past few days in Harvard, but I love the idea of her behaving like she does currently in a normal prole job where you can't blame your fuck ups on 'trolls' and a 'campaign of abuse'.



One of her proofs of her victimhood is that her employers were harassed. 

(pause)


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

Ole said:


> One of her proofs of her victimhood is that her employers were harassed.
> 
> (pause)



I wish someone would harass my employer, one of my main gripes with my workplace is that no one does


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

BTW everyone should harass the N$, the Fabians are elitist cunts and have been since their foundation


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

Not you


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Lezard looks like a "pick-up artist" - the sort of man who does ham-fisted coin tricks and carries rohypnol in his wallet.



Lezard's a prick for sure but why not judge him on his actual prickery rather than your interpretation of his appearance? He looks like the sort of guy who carries rohypnol in his wallet? Really FFS. 

Why _do_ you seem to see perversion in everything/everyone you look at? There's something up with you. Honestly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Ugh, fuck off.





Nice one, Crapabble, turning murder into money.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> Butchers. I am a journalism person at the News. Please do not lecture me on lurking.


Forgot to say tops marks for this btw!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Serious Q: has Laurie ever had a proper job?
> 
> I don't mean to minimise what I'm sure has been an immense trauma for her over the past few days in Harvard, but I love the idea of her behaving like she does currently in a normal prole job where you can't blame your fuck ups on 'trolls' and a 'campaign of abuse'.



She did an internship at _The Morning Star_, although according to a poster who works there, she rarely turned up, pinched ideas and was a typical Oxbridge wanker.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> BTW everyone should harass the N$, the Fabians are elitist cunts and have been since their foundation



I would just like to mention here that articul8 is *not, and never has been a Fabian*.  We know this because he has told us so, despite coming across like a Webbite sometimes.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 31, 2014)

Only to the terminally confused


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 31, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Why _do_ you seem to see perversion in everything/everyone you look at? There's something up with you. Honestly.



too much time spent researching the attitudes and psychology of sex offenders, rapists, and MRAs 'undercover' for an Anti Violence Against Women Project last year, probably.  once you see it, it cannot be unseen.  becomes a kind of presumption of guilt for all men really.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> vice really is a shit outfit, the nadir of app-for-that fuck haired ironical posturing content to flirt with any nazi/gun/cannibal/racist shit cos you know..its cool man, retweet this shit. May they burn



See what you mean, but they've done some really important stories recently.  I think they're trying to go mainstream.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 31, 2014)

Violent Panda said:


> She did an internship at _The Morning Star_, although according to a poster who works there, she rarely turned up, pinched ideas and was a typical Oxbridge wanker.


Worked for low/min wage for One in Four when it started up too (moaned about the lack of pay either here or twitter, then a couple of weeks later wrote them a gushing 'thank you for the opps' letter for their anniversary edition)


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 31, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Worked for low/min wage for One in Four when it started up too (moaned about the lack of pay either here or twitter, then a couple of weeks later wrote them a gushing 'thank you for the opps' letter for their anniversary edition)



Funny thing, OneInFour (which sadly folded recently) used to pay its freelance contributors £100 a piece. Not mega-money for freelancers, but certainly not pocket change, either.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> she really really really should get off twitter.  it's a terrible place for people who can't take criticism, whether that criticism is justified or not. it would do wonders for her mental health.



The fact that she evidently cares so much what people think of her is a point in her favor.


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 31, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Hopefully Harvard means she'll re-evaluate her attitude and the way she uses things like Twitter. Lose the vanity. Learn humility.



Oh aye they're well humile down Harvard.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 31, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Funny thing, One InFour (which sadly folded recently) used to pay its freelance contributors £100 a piece. Not mega-money for freelancers, but certainly not pocket change, either.


I didn't realise it'd folded - that's a huge shame


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Only to the terminally confused



You wish.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The fact that she evidently cares so much what people think of her is a point in her favor.


Is it?  She might end up doing exactly what she never intended to, if she carries on like that.


----------



## rekil (Sep 1, 2014)

"Is this *YOUR* nazi friend Ms.Penny?" Dear oh dear.




!



!!




Apparently chummy with this tattooist person.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2014)

Looks like what what they call _nipsters _in germany. That's a hitler quote above btw for those who don't recognise it. How hilarious.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 1, 2014)

the fuck, when it comes to nazis there is no sense of humour. There is no lol. There is no hugs. There is only hatred and destruction, make sure its you to them first. Otherwise piss weak liberals get confused and encouraged and fist bump the murderous bastards


----------



## rekil (Sep 1, 2014)

Not _all_ nazi hackers.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 1, 2014)

straight-arm salute lol! So hilaire!


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 1, 2014)

fuckquenele, its a mienfield


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> !!
> 
> View attachment 60345



That's particularly fruity 

ETA:

Just to dispel any uncertainty or ambiguity...


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 1, 2014)

Hugs really do help though, they make you feel great. I'm just not sure they have much efficiacy when it comes to combating National Socialist views


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the fuck, when it comes to nazis there is no sense of humour. There is no lol. There is no hugs. There is only hatred and destruction, make sure its you to them first. Otherwise piss weak liberals get confused and encouraged and fist bump the murderous bastards


couldnt agree more. sick of the dressing up of pure hatred as middle of the road mediocrity with an "eccentric" twist, ie Boris, farage, u know the sort i mean.  these r not remotely comedic ppl representing middle of the road views.  they are hatred & murderous & must not be "liked" let alone trusted with anything, under any circumstances.  its just not fucking funny


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2014)

Johnson & Farage aren't nazis.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> couldnt agree more. sick of the dressing up of pure hatred as middle of the road mediocrity with an "eccentric" twist, ie Boris, farage, u know the sort i mean.  these r not remotely comedic ppl representing middle of the road views.  they are hatred & murderous & must not be "liked" let alone trusted with anything, under any circumstances.  its just not fucking funny


no i am prob going too far but i just get really angry at the manipulation & perception of what i consider the rightwing (often extreme right wing) as often laughable, eccentric, quite likable really.  it just isnt, imo it's dangerous & deadly.   yet make it look funny & ppl warm to it.  i find this horrifying.


----------



## andysays (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> Johnson & Farage aren't nazis.



They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.

*unless you'd like to argue otherwise


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

andysays said:


> They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.
> 
> *unless you'd like to argue otherwise


thank u, i would like to have expressed this too, this is just what i meant


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2014)

andysays said:


> They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.
> 
> *unless you'd like to argue otherwise


don't think either of them are to any significant degree. Theyre both free market capitalists, any hatred in their politics is entirely opportunistic rather than a core value.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> don't think either of them are to any significant degree. Theyre both free market capitalists, any hatred in their politics is entirely opportunistic rather than a core value.


but that could be said of cameron, ids, many members of cabinet atm, it still makes them deadly.  i dont know whether what their prejudices r down to is, for instance, just greed or whether, for eg, it's just for hatred of what they see as the "other".  in the end their policies have the same results - death, devastation & destruction


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

also, free market capitalism does not exist in this world and i dont think it ever will.  the type of capitalism that passes for free market is based on hatred, prejudice & othering.  it is not a level playing field.  altho i have had libertarians arguing my head off for hours about this.


----------



## Limerick Red (Sep 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> but that could be said of cameron, ids, many members of cabinet atm, it still makes them deadly.  i dont know whether what their prejudices r down to is, for instance, just greed or whether, for eg, it's just for hatred of what they see as the "other".  in the end their policies have the same results - death, devastation & destruction


But its not, its the ruling class maintaining their interests, none of these people are "evil", if that was the case problems could be solved by only voting for "good" people. To try describe it in moral terms is of no help. IDS , Cameron and members of the ruling class, they are doing what they need to, to maintain power for their class, and interests.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> But its not, its the ruling class maintaining their interests, none of these people are "evil", if that was the case problems could be solved by only voting for "good" people. To try describe it in moral terms is of no help. IDS , Cameron and members of the ruling class, they are doing what they need to, to maintain power for their class, and interests.


i did not mean to describe it in terms of evil, etc, i agree with u there.  i just mean that whether they maintain their interests thru bigotry, dislike of certain types of ppl, or whether they do it cos of some adherence to what they see as free market capitalism, the result is the same.  and making these ppl into lovable clowns is obscuring their danger.  i dont know if i am making sense.  for me, the evil comes into how ppl end up dying, never having a chance, the complete unfairness of it all and the way it is always, always kept the same.  i dont see much point calling ppl evil, most ppl believe what they are doing is good, prob even cameron & ids.  prob even hitler.


----------



## andysays (Sep 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> But its not, its the ruling class maintaining their interests, none of these people are "evil", if that was the case problems could be solved by only voting for "good" people. To try describe it in moral terms is of no help. IDS , Cameron and members of the ruling class, they are doing what they need to, to maintain power for their class, and interests.



So now we've gone from killer b incorrectly asserting that Rural was saying Farage and Johnson are Nazis to you incorrectly asserting that Rural is saying the ruling class are evil.

Maybe if you addressed what is actually being said rather that what you imagine is being said, there might be a discussion worth having.

So, Farage and Johnson are indeed eager free market capitalists, which to me implies or includes a hatred of the working classes, based on despising and fearing them, which is, of course, an expression of their class interest.

It's not to say that F & J are unique in this, of course they're not, but what Rural originally said was that they are to some extent able to disguise/get away with it because of their carefully cultivated personae.

And apparently there are plenty of people, even here, who inadvertantly demonstrate the truth of the point...


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2014)

is that what were doing? Right.


----------



## andysays (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> is that what were doing? Right.



Well that's what it looks like to me, otherwise why would you leap in to defend Nigel and Boris from accusations of being Nazis, accusations which no one was making and which exist only in your mind?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Hugs really do help though, they make you feel great. I'm just not sure they have much efficiacy when it comes to combating National Socialist views



Oh, they have efficacy alright! They're great for positioning a Nazi for a shiv in the gizzard.


----------



## Limerick Red (Sep 1, 2014)

andysays said:


> So now we've gone from killer b incorrectly asserting that Rural was saying Farage and Johnson are Nazis to you incorrectly asserting that Rural is saying the ruling class are evil.
> 
> Maybe if you addressed what is actually being said rather that what you imagine is being said, there might be a discussion worth having.
> 
> ...



I am addressing the point, you said in #8851 that they are basing their politics on hatred, how so?



andysays said:


> So, Farage and Johnson are indeed eager free market capitalists, which to me implies or includes a hatred of the working classes, based on despising and fearing them, which is, of course, an expression of their class interest.


Does it imply or include hatred of the working class? its not all free market capitalists voting for Farage/UKIP.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

andysays said:


> So now we've gone from killer b incorrectly asserting that Rural was saying Farage and Johnson are Nazis to you incorrectly asserting that Rural is saying the ruling class are evil.
> 
> Maybe if you addressed what is actually being said rather that what you imagine is being said, there might be a discussion worth having.
> 
> ...


i guess to go back to the commentariat thread title, i think if even LP is having a laugh with white supreme-racists or whatevs, the commentariat is very responsible for presenting these types as harmless, eccentric, bit lovable, etc.  "even LP", what am i saying, i know, but she did present to be "one of us", sold herself as a revolutionary, etc.  its no wonder the daily mail do such a good job of this type of spin on these type of characters.  is there any media (ok i know ive only mentioned lp & the fail) that is honest about these things?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2014)

andysays said:


> They are, though, arguably basing their politics on hatred*, which was the point Rural was making, and are both to some extent allowed to get away with it because of their carefully fostered cheeky chappie personae.
> 
> *unless you'd like to argue otherwise



I'd say that the likes of Johnson and Farage are more insidious than blatant hatemongers are, because their shit-stirring is all about political opportunism, rather than conviction. You know the pair of them would u-turn their views on a sixpence if it garnered them votes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> don't think either of them are to any significant degree. Theyre both free market capitalists, any hatred in their politics is entirely opportunistic rather than a core value.



Yup. They'd sell their grandmothers if it got them media coverage. I'm surprised Johnson hasn't denounced his Circassian great-grandmother!


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> I am addressing the point, you said in #8851 that they are basing their politics on hatred, how so?
> 
> 
> Does it imply or include hatred of the working class? its not all free market capitalists voting for Farage/UKIP.


even if they are not basing their own personal politics on hatred, they deliberately stir up hatred of "foreigners", disabled, anyone they see that can be made to look "less than" and othered.  i cant believe i am actually having to argue this on here.  i kind of thought ppl could see this.  it's obvious to me that these are their tactics.  whether they believe them themselves idk. i guess i could find some farage quotes backing my opinion up, if u really want me to but id not think they are hard to find.


----------



## Limerick Red (Sep 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> even if they are not basing their own personal politics on hatred, they deliberately stir up hatred of "foreigners", disabled, anyone they see that can be made to look "less than" and othered.  i cant believe i am actually having to argue this on here.  i kind of thought ppl could see this.  it's obvious to me that these are their tactics.  whether they believe them themselves idk. i guess i could find some farage quotes backing my opinion up, if u really want me to but id not think they are hard to find.


Of course they do, Im not arguing they don't. Im saying that if tomorrow by some magical occurrance that the majority of English people thought the EU was the bee's knees, they would without batting an eyelid, completely U-turn on it, theirs is the politics of opportunism, the maintainance of their priviledgled place in society.


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2014)

andysays said:


> Well that's what it looks like to me, otherwise why would you leap in to defend Nigel and Boris from accusations of being Nazis, accusations which no one was making and which exist only in your mind?


I've no interest in a word-by-word dissection of the post I was replying to, but it was far from 'only in my head'. Enough people make breathless pronouncements about Farage / Johnson / Duncan Smith / etc etc being nazis for it to be necessary to challenge it when it comes up - they aren't, and to talk of them in the same breath as nazis is making those associations, whether it's meant or not. It isn't a defence of Johnson or Farage to challenge it - it's a demand for accuracy. Neo-liberal economics is the enemy, not Nazism.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> Of course they do, Im not arguing they don't. Im saying that if tomorrow by some magical occurrance that the majority of English people thought the EU was the bee's knees, they would without batting an eyelid, completely U-turn on it, theirs is the politics of opportunism, the maintainance of their priviledgled place in society.


personally i believe the same, just so sadly predictable that any measure of "success" is accompanied by a seemingly corresponding lack of integrity


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> I've no interest in a word-by-word dissection of the post I was replying to, but it was far from 'only in my head'. Enough people make breathless pronouncements about Farage / Johnson / Duncan Smith / etc etc being nazis for it to be necessary to challenge it when it comes up - they aren't, and to talk of them in the same breath as nazis is making those associations, whether it's meant or not. It isn't a defence of Johnson or Farage to challenge it - it's a demand for accuracy. Neo-liberal economics is the enemy, not Nazism.


i dont think it's accurate to say i made a "breathless pronouncement" about those ppl being nazis.  also u can talk about many things in the same breath without saying that they are the same thing.  many things are linked, it does no harm to discuss this.  maybe if they are not linked, good debate will reveal the truth of this.  

also imo anyway nazism is definitely the enemy.  i can have more than one u know!


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2014)

It's a distraction. at least it is in the UK.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 1, 2014)

copliker said:


> "Is this *YOUR* nazi friend Ms.Penny?" Dear oh dear.



Amazing innit.  Doesn't that guy know the SS would have put a bullet in his brain before he'd even staggered off the train?

_Was ist das, _ginger hair, beard, glasses, about 4ft 9 and with more than a little of the oriental about him?  Turn right _schweinhund..._


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

as George Carlin said  "when fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jackboots. It will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts. Smiley-smiley." 

the commentariat (im trying to stick to the thread!) r guilty imo of assisting the ushering-in of this with distractions, by making lovable clowns of ppl who (imo) have dangerous objectives.  it's bread & circuses presented to us thru a very distorted media lens.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Is it?  She might end up doing exactly what she never intended to, if she carries on like that.



Wha dat den?


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> im trying to stick to the thread!



One of them eh?  We don't have much truck with your kind round here.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> One of them eh?  We don't have much truck with your kind round here.


hehe i am being disruptive!


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2014)

Rural said:


> as George Carlin said  "when fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jackboots. It will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts. Smiley-smiley."
> 
> the commentariat (im trying to stick to the thread!) r guilty imo of assisting the ushering-in of this with distractions, by making lovable clowns of ppl who (imo) have dangerous objectives.  it's bread & circuses presented to us thru a very distorted media lens.


Do you have anything from Bill Hicks as well?


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> Do you have anything from Bill Hicks as well?


*goes to look*


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Wha dat den?


If you can't be bothered to string a coherent sentence together, sweetie, I can't be bothered to try to work out exactly what Laurie Penny doesn't want to do.  

'Shut up and sink back into obscurity' might be head of the list, though.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> If you can't be bothered to string a coherent sentence together.



Racist.



Greebo said:


> 'Shut up and sink back into obscurity' might be head of the list, though.



Actually, I bet she's surely tempted to do just that.  I don't think her skin is particularly thick.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Actually, I bet she's surely tempted to do just that.  I don't think her skin is particularly thick.



Nah, she is brimming with that individual manifest destiny that private school kids all seem to have in spades whether it's warranted or not.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> <snip> Actually, I bet she's surely tempted to do just that.  I don't think her skin is particularly thick.


"Sorely", surely, you're welcome.  

Thick skin or thin, LP's got this far.  Maybe even negative attention is welcome, as long as it's attention.  She wouldn't be the first.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 1, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Nah, she is brimming with that individual manifest destiny that private school kids all seem to have in spades whether it's warranted or not.



Not so much the women ime.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> "Sorely", surely, you're welcome.
> 
> Thick skin or thin, LP's got this far.  Maybe even negative attention is welcome, as long as it's attention.  She wouldn't be the first.



No, she certainly wouldn't.  

But compare her to someone like Julie Burchill--who obviously doesn't give a toss what anyone thinks of her (or at least gives a very convincing impression of feeling that way).  I don't think LP relishes being denounced and berated in the way that Burchill does.

And you know where that difference comes from? * Class,* that's where.


----------



## Rural (Sep 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> Do you have anything from Bill Hicks as well?



think this says it all

"All governments are lying cocksuckers"


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not so much the women ime.


You mean you're less good at seeing it.  The autistic spectrum isn't expressed in the same way regardless of sex or gender, why would other characteristics be expressed identically?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> <snip> compare her to someone like Julie Burchill--who obviously doesn't give a toss what anyone thinks of her (or at least gives a very convincing impression of feeling that way).  I don't think LP relishes being denounced and berated in the way that Burchill does.
> 
> And you know where that difference comes from? * Class,* that's where.


Not necessarily - masochistic streaks and other psychological flaws and quirks are no respecters of class or other arbitrary dividing lines.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 2, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Not necessarily - masochistic streaks and other psychological flaws and quirks are no respecters of class or other arbitrary dividing lines.



Ooh yes they are.  The English ruling class are completely different to everyone else.  Why wouldn't they be?  They live in their own world from cradle to grave, they never even meet outsiders.


----------



## andysays (Sep 2, 2014)

killer b said:


> I've no interest in a word-by-word dissection of the post I was replying to, but it was far from 'only in my head'. *Enough people make breathless pronouncements about Farage / Johnson / Duncan Smith / etc etc being nazis* for it to be necessary to challenge it when it comes up - they aren't, and to talk of them in the same breath as nazis is making those associations, whether it's meant or not. It isn't a defence of Johnson or Farage to challenge it - it's a demand for accuracy. Neo-liberal economics is the enemy, not Nazism.



Of those three, Duncan Smith gets accused of being a Nazi most often, from what I've seen.

Farage may get called it occasionally; he's more often dismissed, here and elsewhere, as a rascist.

I can't remember ever seeing Johnson seriously described as a Nazi, he doesn't even have the word rascist generally attached to him.

And whatever you say, Rural didn't describe or even hint at Farage and Johnson as Nazis, yet you feel the need to get your retaliation in first. Why is that, I wonder?...

But you're right that neo-liberalism is the enemy, so we can hopefully agree to attack/criticise Farage/Johnson/etc on that basis


----------



## killer b (Sep 2, 2014)

wtf are you trying to say Andy? If think I have some kind of ulterior motive in misunderstanding rural's post, I'd appreciate if you were clear about what you think it is?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Ooh yes they are.  The English ruling class are completely different to everyone else.  Why wouldn't they be?  They live in their own world from cradle to grave, they never even meet outsiders.


So you might think (does the Queen think state schools always have a faint smell of fresh paint?) and you've probably had more contact with them than I have, haven't got the time to debate this with you atm, bluetailed fly day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2014)

andysays said:


> Of those three, Duncan Smith gets accused of being a Nazi most often, from what I've seen.



He isn't helped by the fact that he adopted "work makes you free" as a catchphrase when he first become secretary of state at the DWP, which was pretty much a gift to anyone remotely satirically-inclined.


----------



## Rural (Sep 2, 2014)

Greebo said:


> "Sorely", surely, you're welcome.
> 
> Thick skin or thin, LP's got this far.  Maybe even negative attention is welcome, as long as it's attention.  She wouldn't be the first.



LP could be accused of monetarising her own sensitivity/vulnerability in some instances.  her persona is quite delicate at times, she has public (well on twitter!) panic attacks, tweets how she is crying cos of what mean ppl r saying to her (and i dont mean the awful violent threats she gets, often it's just members of an oppressed group asking her to please reconsider what crass thing she is saying about them).  this leads to a lot of attention directed her way from so-called "white knights", who she even wrote in praise of recently.  in person she appears small, frail, well, vulnerable.  i know u cant help aspects of ur appearance.  but u can capitalise on them.


----------



## Rural (Sep 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> He isn't helped by the fact that he adopted "work makes you free" as a catchphrase when he first become secretary of state at the DWP, which was pretty much a gift to anyone remotely satirically-inclined.


that slogan, together with the spiteful "go home" one adopted by the immigration dept & their vans, is the sort of thing id have once thought was not possible these days.  taken together, along with the actions that have accompanied them, i can see why the word fascism jumps to mind.  it's impossible to avoid it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2014)

Rural said:


> that slogan, together with the spiteful "go home" one adopted by the immigration dept & their vans, is the sort of thing id have once thought was not possible these days.  taken together, along with the actions that have accompanied them, i can see why the word fascism jumps to mind.  it's impossible to avoid it.



I *try* to avoid it, and "Nazism", purely because to apply those labels to these deluded neoliberal cuntwipes cheapens the labels.  They aren't "fascist" or "Nazi", they're authoritarian patricians - the worst possible kind of patrician.  They'll shit all over you, while convincing themselves that they're doing "good works".


----------



## Rural (Sep 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I *try* to avoid it, and "Nazism", purely because to apply those labels to these deluded neoliberal cuntwipes cheapens the labels.  They aren't "fascist" or "Nazi", they're authoritarian patricians - the worst possible kind of patrician.  They'll shit all over you, while convincing themselves that they're doing "good works".


yep, yep, i agree with u & i didnt call anyone a nazi earlier on.  it's occurred to me since then that looking at those slogans, it is hard to avoid thinking "fascism" tho.  i also do not want to use words like nazi etc to become a distraction, thats no help.


----------



## agricola (Sep 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I *try* to avoid it, and "Nazism", purely because to apply those labels to these deluded neoliberal cuntwipes cheapens the labels.  They aren't "fascist" or "Nazi", they're authoritarian patricians - the worst possible kind of patrician.  They'll shit all over you, while convincing themselves that they're doing "good works".



I am not even sure they are that, to be honest.  Carnegie was an authoritarian patrician but of course he opened libraries, rather than closed them.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 2, 2014)

Rural said:


> LP could be accused of monetarising her own sensitivity/vulnerability in some instances.  her persona is quite delicate at times, she has public (well on twitter!) panic attacks



Or she could just be lying about it


----------



## killer b (Sep 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I *try* to avoid it, and "Nazism", purely because to apply those labels to these deluded neoliberal cuntwipes cheapens the labels.  They aren't "fascist" or "Nazi", they're authoritarian patricians - the worst possible kind of patrician.  They'll shit all over you, while convincing themselves that they're doing "good works".


Don't think so. I think they're free market capitalists. There's nothing noble about this lot, even misguided nobility.


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Amazing innit.  Doesn't that guy know the SS would have put a bullet in his brain before he'd even staggered off the train?
> 
> _Was ist das, _ginger hair, beard, glasses, about 4ft 9 and with more than a little of the oriental about him?  Turn right _schweinhund..._



Sorry Phil. Whilst. I'm in accord with the spirit of your post, and don't wish to criticise I feel I must comment.

I've stood on the platform at Auschwitz-Birkenau, at the very spot where Nazi officers made the decision to send people "left" or "right". And it's one of the few situations where I've completely broken down. 

A place that overwhelmed me, utterly.

Utterly.


It's not a place I can joke about. Or can read jokes about.

And, I know your post was explicitly anti-nazi, and about bringing the realities home to the ironic "Nipsters". But...but, I still found it upsetting. 

I will struggle with "flippant" references like this, to concrete places, I guess. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Worth bearing in mind? 

...that said, I hope we are united in implacable opposition to pricks like him.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 2, 2014)

chilango said:


> I know your post was explicitly anti-nazi



I think that's the point really.

I mean, where do you draw the line?  The gulag was quite upsetting too.  I've been to Toul Sleng: very upsetting.  So we can only discuss any such things in hushed, reverent tones?  Nah, I don't buy it.


----------



## toggle (Sep 3, 2014)

Rural said:


> LP could be accused of monetarising her own sensitivity/vulnerability in some instances.  her persona is quite delicate at times, she has public (well on twitter!) panic attacks, tweets how she is crying cos of what mean ppl r saying to her (and i dont mean the awful violent threats she gets, often it's just members of an oppressed group asking her to please reconsider what crass thing she is saying about them).  this leads to a lot of attention directed her way from so-called "white knights", who she even wrote in praise of recently.  in person she appears small, frail, well, vulnerable.  i know u cant help aspects of ur appearance.  but u can capitalise on them.



iif she's claiming to be trying on twitter while having a panic attack, then i don't know if she really knows what a full blown panic attack actaully is. cause she'd be too busy, at best, trying to remember how to breathe. at worst, wondering if she was having a heart attack. 

i don't doubt she gets shit, but that shit is attention seeking and is insulting to those that are actually that distressed by abuse.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 3, 2014)

Actually, If you're attention-seeking to that extent you may actually deserve the attention. You don't act like that unless there's something wrong deep down.


----------



## Rural (Sep 3, 2014)

phildwyer post: 13376177 said:
			
		

> I think that's the point really.
> 
> I mean, where do you draw the line?  The gulag was quite upsetting too.  I've been to Toul Sleng: very upsetting.  So we can only discuss any such things in hushed, reverent tones?  Nah, I don't buy it.


At certain times i feel very sensitive (maybe over?) To the endless horrors ppl have inflicted & continue to inflict on each other. Sometimes overwhelmed by it. I've been pretty ill for a couple weeks & feel done it by it all atm (oh god I sound like LP. I even had a temperature). When I feel stronger in myself I find I am more able to use humour as a defence against the horrors. I do try not to say anything that would hurt or cause upset to another cos of my own ignorance or bigotry & I'm sorry if I've ever seemed like I'm trivialising what r matters of life & death. Sometimes I do think if I didnt laugh id cry tho :/


----------



## rekil (Sep 3, 2014)

Yer man's Linkedin - This is the kind of loon that Laurie and Crabapple gravitate towards? And they complain about being called fakes all the time? 



> Organizations I support:
> 
> Electronic Frontier Foundation
> Feminist Software Foundation
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Yer man's Linkedin - This is the kind of loon that Laurie and Crabapple gravitate towards? And they complain about being called fakes all the time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe they thought the Voortrekker baarde were a hipster thing?


Spoiler: Edgy fashion photography from the Bophuthatswana catwalk (not for the faint of heart)


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 3, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Actually, If you're attention-seeking to that extent you may actually deserve the attention. You don't act like that unless there's something wrong deep down.



Aye.


----------



## chilango (Sep 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think that's the point really.
> 
> I mean, where do you draw the line?  The gulag was quite upsetting too.  I've been to Toul Sleng: very upsetting.  So we can only discuss any such things in hushed, reverent tones?  Nah, I don't buy it.



Nah. Course not.

I was just letting you know how that post made me feel. It's not a big deal, and I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to post, or how to post. But I do think it's sometimes worth letting people know if/when things they say resonate in unintended ways. That's all.


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> iif she's claiming to be trying on twitter while having a panic attack, then i don't know if she really knows what a full blown panic attack actaully is. cause she'd be too busy, at best, trying to remember how to breathe. at worst, wondering if she was having a heart attack.
> 
> i don't doubt she gets shit, but that shit is attention seeking and is insulting to those that are actually that distressed by abuse.


I don't think you get to decide whether she's distressed enough or not.


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> I don't think you get to decide whether she's distressed enough or not.



In fairness, I've actually had panic attcks. /you don't sit there Tweeting through one, not a proper full-on one anyway.


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

you don't get to decide either.


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

Is this for real? On another thread, toggle is giving a poster reams of abuse for not being a good enough 'ally' over a woman receiving misogynist abuse online, here she's doubting the sincerity of a the reactions of a woman receiving misogynist abuse online. Fucksake.


----------



## Rural (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is this for real? On another thread, toggle is giving a poster reams of abuse for not being a good enough 'ally' over a woman receiving misogynist abuse online, here she's doubting the sincerity of a the reactions of a woman receiving misogynist abuse online. Fucksake.


the misog abuse lp gets as in the rape threats, etc (which many many ppl get not only lp & not only women) r not what i was talking about.  its more when she gets revealed as a less than ideal "ally" to whichever group shes sucking up to atm.  a little critique from these quarters and its like "im actually having a full blown panic attack now cos of all this" then she just carries on tweeting away.  maybe she can tweet thru panic attacks. dont think anyone else i know would be able to do this tho.  but no, obv only she knows how distressed she feels.  its really not like she doesnt have loads of support online and irl.  for every person who offers a critique of her work online there are many more who rush to wipe her eyes, send her hugs, offer support.  she is well-protected.


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

Ah, ok. well, I think if I were receiving daily rape threats, I might struggle to keep other criticism in context. And IME 'attention seeking behaviour' is a fairly common - and understandable - reaction to the kind of abuse Penny gets.

Clearly she isn't immune from criticism though - I just think perhaps we should place at least bear all this other stuff in mind when doing so.


----------



## toggle (Sep 3, 2014)

you're entirely missing the fucking point. I'm not making comment on whether she has the right to be distressed, or how distressed any of the abuse she received should make her. I'm commenting on how she chooses to describe distress and use it to silence criticism. I don't doubt there are times she expereinces distressing shit, and firstly,  what I do not believe is that anyone is still typing on twitter throughout a full panic attack that is supposedly triggered by people disagreeing with her on twitter. 

Secondly, My comment was a reply to Rural above, who made it clear she was discussing the times that LP was asked to check her own privilage rather than monitor other people's.its something that has been noticed as a pattern, she panics when she is caught having published something that she hasn't fackchecked, hasn't actually interviewed the person she's quoting, is completely misrepresenting someone's opinions or has blatently displayed her ignorance and privilage. not saying that the experience isn't distressing to her, i'm sure it is, but she is, IMO, exagerating by describing it as a panic attack to get other people to go fight for her, because she has fucked something up and doesn't know a way out of it. 

Crying wolf by using and exaggerating distress to silence criticism is a shitty trick. just like her other shitty trick of labeling any criticism of anything she's written as misogyny. it turns the expereinces of those who chose not to exaggerate about the triggering shit we find online into a fucking joke.


----------



## Rural (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> Ah, ok. well, I think if I were receiving daily rape threats, I might struggle to keep other criticism in context. And IME 'attention seeking behaviour' is a fairly common - and understandable - reaction to the kind of abuse Penny gets.
> 
> Clearly she isn't immune from criticism though - I just think perhaps we should place at least bear all this other stuff in mind when doing so.


tbf why r ppl even on twitter or social networks if not seeking attention? that is the purpose of them i thought.  ive sought attention for lots of "good causes" on soc nets & for me too. attn seeking not always a bad thing


----------



## Rural (Sep 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> you're entirely missing the fucking point. I'm not making comment on whether she has the right to be distressed, or how distressed any of the abuse she received should make her. I'm commenting on how she chooses to describe distress and use it to silence criticism. I don't doubt there are times she expereinces distressing shit, and firstly,  what I do not believe is that anyone is still typing on twitter throughout a full panic attack that is supposedly triggered by people disagreeing with her on twitter.
> 
> Secondly, My comment was a reply to Rural above, who made it clear she was discussing the times that LP was asked to check her own privilage rather than monitor other people's.its something that has been noticed as a pattern, she panics when she is caught having published something that she hasn't fackchecked, hasn't actually interviewed the person she's quoting, is completely misrepresenting someone's opinions or has blatently displayed her ignorance and privilage. not saying that the experience isn't distressing to her, i'm sure it is, but she is, IMO, exagerating by describing it as a panic attack to get other people to go fight for her, because she has fucked something up and doesn't know a way out of it.
> 
> Crying wolf by using and exaggerating distress to silence criticism is a shitty trick. just like her other shitty trick of labeling any criticism of anything she's written as misogyny. it turns the expereinces of those who chose not to exaggerate about the triggering shit we find online into a fucking joke.



that is exactly what i meant about lp & the times she has pleaded distress.  they are not times of vile abuse, more when she has been caught out. sometimes she would be better to put twitter down, walk away, etc.  staying there saying shes collapsing cos of twit-crit really doesnt make anything shes saying more believable


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> you're entirely missing the fucking point. I'm not making comment on whether she has the right to be distressed, or how distressed any of the abuse she received should make her. I'm commenting on how she chooses to describe distress and use it to silence criticism. I don't doubt there are times she expereinces distressing shit, and firstly,  what I do not believe is that anyone is still typing on twitter throughout a full panic attack that is supposedly triggered by people disagreeing with her on twitter.
> 
> Secondly, My comment was a reply to Rural above, who made it clear she was discussing the times that LP was asked to check her own privilage rather than monitor other people's.its something that has been noticed as a pattern, she panics when she is caught having published something that she hasn't fackchecked, hasn't actually interviewed the person she's quoting, is completely misrepresenting someone's opinions or has blatently displayed her ignorance and privilage. not saying that the experience isn't distressing to her, i'm sure it is, but she is, IMO, exagerating by describing it as a panic attack to get other people to go fight for her, because she has fucked something up and doesn't know a way out of it.
> 
> Crying wolf by using and exaggerating distress to silence criticism is a shitty trick. just like her other shitty trick of labeling any criticism of anything she's written as misogyny. it turns the expereinces of those who chose not to exaggerate about the triggering shit we find online into a fucking joke.


Yeah, I misread. Sorry, I probably shouldn't post half asleep. 

That said, I don't think we can say whether she's genuinely suffering from panic attacks or not when she says she is, just because your experience of them was a particular way.


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> *wtf are you trying to say Andy?* If think I have some kind of ulterior motive in misunderstanding rural's post, I'd appreciate if you were clear about what you think it is?



So now you're getting all offended and huffy? Do I need to remind you that this exchange began as the result of your ridiculous non sequitur attempted dismissal of someone else's post?



killer b said:


> Johnson & Farage aren't nazis.



And that when I called you on it, you didn't have the good grace admit you'd made a mistake, that no one had actually called anyone Nazis, but had to carry on defending Farage and Johnson as just free market capitalists (a nice bland sounding, apolitical description of the sort I'm sure they'd be happy with) whose connection with hatred is merely occasional and coincidental. And you're still using that description in your response to VP.

As far as I'm concerned, Farage and Johnson are both representatives of the ruling class, a ruling class which

hates, depises and fears the working class as an integral part of their exploiting of it and
regularly and repeatedly seeks to use various forms of hatred to divide the working class against itself and against its own interests
You don't need to look to far to find specific examples of both of these from Farage and Johnson.

You may think that you're merely attempting to ensure clarity of discussion, but your attempt to dismiss Rural's original comment, your attempted defense of this dismissal, and your use of bland apolitical descriptors looks to me like an attempt to muddy the discussion and defend members of the ruling class. I haven't speculated as to *why* you're doing this, as opposed to how it comes across, and I'm not going to start now, but you might perhaps want to think about it yourself.

And if you really can't see the truth of the original comment about hate and its significance, you clearly haven't been paying attention when you should



If you close your eyes, it will not go away...


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 3, 2014)

wtf.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2014)

Are you ok andy? What's upset you? Do you need us to call someone for you? If not, why are you posting such nonsense as: _looks to me like an attempt to muddy the discussion and defend members of the ruling class?_


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

jesus.


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

btw, I don't mean 'free market capitalist' as any kind of defence. That's a misunderstanding on your part.


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Are you ok andy? What's upset you? Do you need us to call someone for you? If not, why are you posting such nonsense as: _looks to me like an attempt to muddy the discussion and defend members of the ruling class?_



No, I'm fine thanks. No need for concern.

Maybe the bit you've highlighted is a little over the top, but if I'm upset by anything it's killer b's mission to dismiss criticism of things he doesn't agree with (see also his response to toggle and Bakunin) which appear to be directed most often at criticisms of representatives the ruling class (LP just about scrapes into this category), and which are phrased in such a way as to shut down discussion rather open it up.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> btw, I don't mean 'free market capitalist' as any kind of defence. That's a misunderstanding on your part.


Watch out, or he'll post a gang of four vid to explain what free market capitalism is next.


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Watch out, or he'll post a gang of four vid to explain what free market capitalism is next.



Have you got a Johnny Thunders one?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> No, I'm fine thanks. No need for concern.
> 
> Maybe the bit you've highlighted is a little over the top, but if I'm upset by anything it's killer b's mission to dismiss criticism of things he doesn't agree with (see also his response to toggle and Bakunin) which appear to be directed most often at criticisms of representatives the ruling class (LP just about scrapes into this category), and which are phrased in such a way as to shut down discussion rather open it up.


You think that bit was over the top - so you say the same thing again but in less direct language and add on a baleful motivation on his part? You don't sound like you do think it was _that _OTT tbh.


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You think that bit was over the top - so you say the same thing again but in less direct language and add on a baleful motivation on his part? You don't sound like you do think it was _that _OTT tbh.



You seem to be confusing motivation and effect. It may not be the intention to shut down debate, but that is the effect (you and others are often guilty of this too, IMO). I'm commenting on the effect and the pattern as I see it - the repeated dismissal (as opposed to genuine refutation) of criticism of Farage, for example,.

But when there does appear to be a pattern, eventually I begin to wonder if it might be deliberate and if so what the motivation might be.


----------



## Rural (Sep 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Watch out, or he'll post a gang of four vid to explain what free market capitalism is next.


i would love to see a thread about this! political philosophy explained by 70s/80s bands.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2014)

Hats off to Hatton


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2014)

If such interventions are - as you suggest andy - "phrased in such a way as to shut down discussion" then this would surely lead to the conclusion that this is the _intention_, that there is some thought put into achieving the desired outcome - that they are _motivated _by wanting to shut down discussion. Stop saying things, pretending to take them back  (pretending that you mean effect rather than motivation for example) then just restating them. Your reading here is bizarre and a long way off course. And looks more like some sort of daft grudge bearing than anything else.


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

fucksake what? I've no interest in 'shutting discussion down'. I'm struggling to think of a way to respond to this tbh.


----------



## Rural (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> fucksake what? I've no interest in 'shutting discussion down'. I'm struggling to think of a way to respond to this tbh.


i thought u were originally saying that i was maybe using nazi & fascism incorrectly & that these words can be used as a distraction from "what is really going on".  i didnt mean to do that.  thought it was sorted now.  i didnt agree with what u said to me but tried to explain what i meant.  thats all i know


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> If such interventions are - as you suggest andy - "phrased in such a way as to shut down discussion" then this would surely lead to the conclusion that this is the _intention_, that there is some thought put into achieving the desired outcome - that they are _motivated _by wanting to shut down discussion. Stop saying things, pretending to take them back  (pretending that you mean effect rather than motivation for example) then just restating them. Your reading here is bizarre and a long way off course. And looks more like some sort of daft grudge bearing than anything else.



First of all, I will agree that my reading or interpretation may be a long way of course and even bizarre, certainly with regard to people's intentions.

But the *effect* of people's posts here, especially those quickly dashed off in moments of frustration, on at least some of those who read them, may not be entirely that which was deliberately intended (which is why I'm not happy about posters being overly criticised about the one-off careless use of a word which others are offended by, but that's another story).

But when there appears to be a pattern as there does here (and that again be an interpretation on my part which says more about me than anyone else), then I think it's worth pointing out, challenging and attempting to explain to the person doing it how it comes across. Maybe that's what comes across as grudge bearing, because it's only when I notice the same person doing it repeatedly that I find it worthy of comment.


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> fucksake what? I've no interest in 'shutting discussion down'. I'm struggling to think of a way to respond to this tbh.



OK, I accept that's not your intention.

I didn't intend (LOL) to suggest it was, rather that's the way it comes across to me eg when you made your "they're not nazis" comment, but I can see how it can could across that way.

In an attempt to make an general point without personalising or casting aspersions on anyone's intention or motivations, I would prefer it if posters would refrain from making essentially content-free dismissals of other posters comments, especially when they're based on mis-reading or misrepresentation of those comments, and instead attempt some sort of reasoned rebuttal.

And if I see what I think of as patterns in the other posters' comments, I will attempt in future to focus on their content rather than what could be seen as idle speculation about their motivation...


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> Have you got a Johnny Thunders one?


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> OK, I accept that's not your intention.
> 
> I didn't intend (LOL) to suggest it was, rather that's the way it comes across to me eg when you made your "they're not nazis" comment, but I can see how it can could across that way.
> 
> ...


 
If I think the direction a discussion is taking is misdirected, pointless or actively damaging then I'll continue to challenge it. If I have the time or the inclination, I'll go into detail why I think it's misdirected, pointless or actively damaging.

But I don't always have the time or inclination, and when it's something that's been discussed loads on here already I don't think there's necessarily the need to do more than raise whatever the issue is, and then clarify further if it_ is_ necessary.

This is generally what people do isn't it?


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Sep 3, 2014)

As a distraction from the home-grown madness, I thought we might enjoy Julie Bindel on railway workers being jobsworth scum:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/culturehousedaily/2014/09/my-fare-dodging-hell/



> To cut a long story short, dear reader, I was cautioned and reported for fare-dodging. My transformation from wild, threatening, cursing person to apologetic, mild-mannered lady, with early-onset memory loss, did not help.


'I'm going to blog about this! Don't you know who I am? 

'Oh, a summons...what were you saying dearie?'


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 3, 2014)

tbf, revenue collection has got out of order in recent years. Gone are the days of travelling with the fare in your pocket. They've rumbled that one.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 4, 2014)

So Podemos is hosting an event in London called “Rethinking ourselves: Podemos as a part of a new construction of democracy in Europe”. Ok, cool, great - I think we have a lot to learn from Podemos in this country. So who's invited?







Owen Jones? What? Why is the left flank of neoliberalism in this country and defender of the PSOE's British equivalent speaking at an event like this? If Podemos existed in the UK then OJ would be denouncing them as Anarchists trying to split the anti-Tory vote.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 4, 2014)

Owen is asking for good reviews on facebook this morning..



> Ok everyone - this is an embarrassing plea for your help. When left-wing journalist Laurie Penny's book came out, right-wing trolls bombarded her Amazon review page with one star reviews. I knew they were going to do the same with me, and so they have (see the attached pic). I can't emphasise how much this crew are obsessed with me, and it's flattering that they're rattled. As I've said to people over and over, please do not buy the book from Amazon if you can. But the websit...e is a key reference point - before people buy books they check the review on the website. As you can see, no-one in these reviews has read the book - it's just an attempt by my obsessive hard right wing trolls to trash it. So as I say - as much as I hate to do it - this is a plea for readers' help! And for those who haven't got it - buy it from a local tax-paying bookshop!


----------



## J Ed (Sep 4, 2014)

_monetize _your trolls


----------



## krink (Sep 4, 2014)

Well i hope owen is insisting people read the book before getting involved in this good review campaign....



> As you can see, no-one in these reviews has read the book



or is that the point? £££££££


----------



## fractionMan (Sep 4, 2014)

> Ignore the 1 star reviews - this book has clearly rattled The Establishment





> Please ignore the fake reviews by right-wing trolls, you can tell if they have not read the book, it's clear from anyone that Owen is a socialist, this book is full of very credible ideas, well researched and very entertaining. If you buy it though, please don't buy it here.



90 5 star reviews reading like that.  'ignore the fake reviews'.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> too much time spent researching the attitudes and psychology of sex offenders, rapists, and MRAs 'undercover' for an Anti Violence Against Women Project last year, probably.  once you see it, it cannot be unseen.  becomes a kind of presumption of guilt for all men really.



So by your own admission your judgement has been coloured by your looking into material that you're quite clearly not mentally strong enough to be able to handle looking at. It's left its mark on you to the extent that you now view all men as potential sex offenders/rapists/perpetrators of violence against women. Which is a really unhealthy way of looking at the world. And it still doesn't justify saying of Lezard (or anyone else) " I bet he carries rohypnol around with him, he just looks the _type_". Judging someone by their appearance - Not cool, not cool at all - That black kid with his hood up, I bet he's a street robber - He just looks the _type._

Get some help.

E2a - You're male aren't you? Looking at your own gender in such a warped way will really seriously damage your already fragile self esteem. You're doing yourself no favours.


----------



## Rural (Sep 5, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Owen is asking for good reviews on facebook this morning..


I just cant help picturing OJ as a character in the Young Ones :/


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 5, 2014)

Check out the number of fawning reviews yesterday. Good job OJ:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Establishme...5219&sr=8-1&keywords=owen+jones+establishment


----------



## fractionMan (Sep 5, 2014)

> I'm only reviewing this book in response to Owen's plea that I give him 5 stars for agreeing with him.
> 
> I'm sure it's great if you agree with what he says, terrible if you disagree and simple drudgery to complete if you're anyone else. Not that I'll ever find out. I've not read it and never will. The copy of whatever it is that he's also written about the underclass I received as a misguided present will remain unread on my shelf too.
> 
> A great gift for people who are a little bit communism and think Laurie Penny is 'left-wing'. I would like to give it a Schrodingers rating or 1 and 5 at the same time, but I'll have to settle with 3 stars.



2 of 20 people found the following review helpful


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Check out the number of fawning reviews yesterday. Good job OJ:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Establishment-how-they-get-away-ebook/dp/B00KTRZJI2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409915219&sr=8-1&keywords=owen jones establishment


my personal favourite:





> 39 of 47 people found the following review helpful
> 5.0 out of 5 stars *Great..* 4 Sep 2014
> By Ms J Walker
> Format:Hardcover
> Great... a must read book - whatever your political persuasion it's impotent to have a balanced view and this, whatever you views, is a fascinating book


----------



## Dillinger4 (Sep 5, 2014)




----------



## Dillinger4 (Sep 5, 2014)

proper vitriol there.


----------



## andysays (Sep 5, 2014)

> Journalist Laurie Penny and historian David Starkey go head-to-head at the Sunday Times Festival of Education on Saturday 23th June, 2012. Penny called Starkey a "racist" and a "bigot" after he claimed a child exploitation ring who groomed white girls for sex had *values "that were entrenched in foothills of the Punjab."* Starkey responded, glass of wine in hand, by aggressively accusing Penny of demanding a large fee for appearing at an event before poking his finger in her face and criticizing her public school education.



Unfortunately you could equally well argue that the values which allowed it to happen are entrenched in the foothills of the Peak District (or more widely, obviously, not suggesting it's confined to one small part of Britain).


----------



## Dillinger4 (Sep 5, 2014)

Watch the video. Despite David Starkey making that point and being David Starkey, Laurie Penny manages to lose the crowd and come out looking even worse. Astonishing.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2014)

Dillinger4 said:


> Watch the video. Despite David Starkey making that point and being David Starkey, Laurie Penny manages to lose the crowd and come out looking even worse. Astonishing.


Is this your first time a a harvester?


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 5, 2014)

> Starkey responded, glass of wine in hand, by aggressively accusing Penny of demanding a large fee for appearing at an event before poking his finger in her face and criticizing her public school education


.. Which was reported by LP on twitter as  (link edited in)


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 5, 2014)

LOL (no fan of Goodhart though).


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2014)

This is old old shit.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Sep 5, 2014)

oh yeh. oops. sorry. still, a great reminder.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 5, 2014)

It's split-band scheduling - you're currently reading ‘Urban vs the Commentariat Classic Gold’ on Medium Wave, but if you want 24 hour rolling beef you need to retune to ‘UvC Hits Machine’ on the FM dial.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's split-band scheduling - you're currently reading ‘Urban vs the Commentariat Classic Gold’ on Medium Wave, but if you want 24 hour rolling beef you need to retune to ‘UvC Hits Machine’ on the FM dial.


Link ee up then.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 5, 2014)

Good discussion:


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 5, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> LOL (no fan of Goodhart though).



A Goodhart these days, is hard to find.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> A Goodhart these days, is hard to find.


Expelled from the group.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 5, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> So by your own admission your judgement has been coloured by your looking into material that you're quite clearly not mentally strong enough to be able to handle looking at. It's left its mark on you to the extent that you now view all men as potential sex offenders/rapists/perpetrators of violence against women. Which is a really unhealthy way of looking at the world. And it still doesn't justify saying of Lezard (or anyone else) " I bet he carries rohypnol around with him, he just looks the _type_". Judging someone by their appearance - Not cool, not cool at all - That black kid with his hood up, I bet he's a street robber - He just looks the _type._
> 
> Get some help.
> 
> E2a - You're male aren't you? Looking at your own gender in such a warped way will really seriously damage your already fragile self esteem. You're doing yourself no favours.



oh _do_ fuck off, freud.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 5, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> oh _do_ fuck off, freud.


----------



## fogbat (Sep 5, 2014)

Dillinger4 said:


>



Fiiiiiiiiiight!


----------



## CNT36 (Sep 10, 2014)

We've been here before, right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/09/aaup-trigger-warnings_n_5792358.html



> In a lengthy statement outlining the AAUP's position, the group called trigger warnings -- whether mandatory or voluntary -- a "threat to academic freedom." The use of them by faculty in a classroom setting could skew the choice of course materials and teaching methods, AAUP said, and would prove "counterproductive to the educational experience."


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 10, 2014)

Commentariat thread time loop week?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

has there been any commenteriat chat about scotland indy? other than monbiotic cereal?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 10, 2014)

1. none of them give a fuck about the scottish people.  not glamourous enough, not far enough away or oppressed enough to be interesting like venezualans or black american people.
2. no points to be won with future employers - all the political parties are No, as are all the newspaper publishers, so only No-friendly columns would be acceptable...
2. but most of their audience will be Yes, leading to potentially confrontational tweets.  bringing point 1. back into it, it's simply not worth their while doing either their cred or their prospects damage just to express an opinion on some boring issue that only affects dough-faced povvos from scotchland who propably aren't poly-sexual otherkin friendly and have never seen a genderqueer social centre in their lives.


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 10, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> propably aren't poly-sexual otherkin friendly and have never seen a genderqueer social centre in their lives.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> 1. none of them give a fuck about the scottish people.  not glamourous enough, not far enough away or oppressed enough to be interesting like venezualans or black american people.
> 2. no points to be won with future employers - all the political parties are No, as are all the newspaper publishers, so only No-friendly columns would be acceptable...
> 2. but most of their audience will be Yes, leading to potentially confrontational tweets.  bringing point 1. back into it, it's simply not worth their while doing either their cred or their prospects damage just to express an opinion on some boring issue that only affects dough-faced povvos from scotchland who propably aren't poly-sexual otherkin friendly and have never seen a genderqueer social centre in their lives.



not even a tweeted saltire


----------



## rekil (Sep 10, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> 1. none of them give a fuck about the scottish people.  not glamourous enough, not far enough away or oppressed enough to be interesting like venezualans or black american people.
> 2. no points to be won with future employers - all the political parties are No, as are all the newspaper publishers, so only No-friendly columns would be acceptable...
> 2. but most of their audience will be Yes, leading to potentially confrontational tweets.  bringing point 1. back into it, it's simply not worth their while doing either their cred or their prospects damage just to express an opinion on some boring issue that only affects dough-faced povvos from scotchland who propably aren't poly-sexual otherkin friendly and have never seen a genderqueer social centre in their lives.


With the polling so close, it's time to call for PD to weigh in and declare that if anybody needs to step back and review their unexamined white privilege, it's the scotch.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 10, 2014)

"flaunting their democratic privilege by going it alone lacking solidarity with the working classes of london a smack in the face for the global revolution etc etc"


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

For was it not Jon Logie Baird who invented the televison, upon which the revolution will not be?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> With the polling so close, it's time to call for PD to weigh in and declare that if anybody needs to step back and review their unexamined white privilege, it's the scotch.




I recall a passage from Irvine Welsh's 'Filth' where a particularly nobbish copper says when discussing racism 'The english had made slaves out of us before they even knew where africa was!'


----------



## rekil (Sep 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> For was it not Jon Logie Baird who invented the televison, upon which the revolution will not be?


James Watt invented steam, which has powered the wheel of oppression ever since. Ban steam.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> James Watt invented steam, which has powered the wheel of oppression ever since. Ban steam.



Well to be fair Newcomen invented steam, Watt invented the little chamber off to the side of the steam engine (condenser) which you squirted little squirts of cold water into, which collapsed the vacuum so you didn't have to pump little squirts of cold water into the main cylinder which cooled the cylinder down.

That increased efficiencies so you only needed (as I recall) 2/3 the amount of coal. Because of the patent laws at the time he got a fixed percentage of the savings which earned him a bob or two.


----------



## andysays (Sep 10, 2014)

two sheds said:


> Well to be fair Newcomen invented steam, Watt invented the little chamber off to the side of the steam engine (condenser) which you squirted little squirts of cold water into, which collapsed the vacuum so you didn't have to pump little squirts of cold water into the main cylinder which cooled the cylinder down.
> 
> That increased efficiencies so you only needed (as I recall) 2/3 the amount of coal. Because of the patent laws at the time he got a fixed percentage of the savings which earned him a bob or two.



Neither of them actually invented steam - Newcomen invented a way of harnessing the potential power of steam, and Watt invented a way of making it more efficient.

Anyway, isn't the Wheel of Oppression powered by a combination of hot air and tweets? I don't think the Scots can claim any exclusive rights to either of those...


----------



## two sheds (Sep 10, 2014)

andysays said:


> Neither of them actually invented steam - Newcomen invented a way of harnessing the potential power of steam, and Watt invented a way of making it more efficient.



Actually Hero of Alexandria invented ....


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> With the polling so close, it's time to call for PD to weigh in and declare that if anybody needs to step back and review their unexamined white privilege, it's the scotch.



Crucial role as foreman on the slave plantations.


----------



## rekil (Sep 10, 2014)

two sheds said:


> Well to be fair Newcomen invented steam, Watt invented the little chamber off to the side of the steam engine (condenser) which you squirted little squirts of cold water into, which collapsed the vacuum so you didn't have to pump little squirts of cold water into the main cylinder which cooled the cylinder down.
> 
> That increased efficiencies so you only needed (as I recall) 2/3 the amount of coal. Because of the patent laws at the time he got a fixed percentage of the savings which earned him a bob or two.


Sciencesplaining. Blocked.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Sciencesplaining. Blocked.



Young people nowadays


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Sep 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> has there been any commenteriat chat about scotland indy? other than monbiotic cereal?


Notorious idiot Simon Heffer has weighed in: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ON-HEFFER-says-fear-English-people-think.html


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 10, 2014)

does Heffer count as the commentariat?  isn't he just some sort random noise machine for the wingnut right?


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 11, 2014)

andysays said:


> Neither of them actually invented steam - Newcomen invented a way of harnessing the potential power of steam, and Watt invented a way of making it more efficient.
> 
> Anyway, isn't the Wheel of Oppression powered by a combination of hot air and tweets? I don't think the Scots can claim any exclusive rights to either of those...



Round and round went the great fuking wheel,

In and out went the great prick of steel,

Balls of brass all loaded with cream,

And the whole mechanism was driven by steam.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2014)

killer b said:


> Is this for real? On another thread, toggle is giving a poster reams of abuse for not being a good enough 'ally' over a woman receiving misogynist abuse online, here she's doubting the sincerity of a the reactions of a woman receiving misogynist abuse online. Fucksake.



Nope, she's questioning the level of function available to someone suffering a panic attack. Having had them myself (in relation to agoraphobia that I've since managed to mostly suppress), I'm well-aware that the triggered "fight or flight" instinct allows for very little beyond that, and physiologically the flood of adrenaline and other hormones will massively affect fine motor control for at least five minutes after the "peak" of the panic attack.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> has there been any commenteriat chat about scotland indy? other than monbiotic cereal?


Owen Jones has been tweeting about it a lot and wrote this the other day

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/07/scotland-decides-union-tories


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> So by your own admission your judgement has been coloured by your looking into material that you're quite clearly not mentally strong enough to be able to handle looking at. It's left its mark on you to the extent that you now view all men as potential sex offenders/rapists/perpetrators of violence against women. Which is a really unhealthy way of looking at the world. And it still doesn't justify saying of Lezard (or anyone else) " I bet he carries rohypnol around with him, he just looks the _type_". Judging someone by their appearance - Not cool, not cool at all - That black kid with his hood up, I bet he's a street robber - He just looks the _type._
> 
> Get some help.
> 
> E2a - You're male aren't you? Looking at your own gender in such a warped way will really seriously damage your already fragile self esteem. You're doing yourself no favours.



Way to miss the point and show yourself up, Frances.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> For was it not Jon Logie Baird who invented the televison, upon which the revolution will not be?



Didn't John Bogie's laird turn him off his croft during the second wave of clearances?


----------



## weepiper (Sep 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Didn't John Bogie's laird turn him off his croft during the second wave of clearances?


 his dad was a Kirk of Scotland minister so this seems unlikely


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 11, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Owen Jones has been tweeting about it a lot and wrote this the other day
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/07/scotland-decides-union-tories


 
well, you can't really argue with that article.  mostly because all he's doing is recognising that it's quite important really.  it's an exercise in not saying anything whilst appearing to say something, in true politicians style.  have his tweets been criticising the stream of lies and threats coming out of his own party?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Way to miss the point and show yourself up, Frances.



Way to be late to the party, fatboy. That was a _week_ ago. I said my thing, el-rabbitchops exercised his right to reply and all's well that ends well, the thread moves on, the world keeps turning etc. Until cue the arrival of some beardy fat _sac_ whose arrogance won't allow him to consider the possibility that the world could ever keep turning without first hearing his opinion on the issues that six days ago wrapped yesterdays chips. Well it's heard them now so move on, you're only a week late.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 12, 2014)

LOL, OJ viewing any criticism as the act of a 'troll':


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2014)

Theisticle said:


>



Yeah, damn those trolls Chelsea Manning, Clive Ponting, Sarah Tisdall...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2014)

Being part of the commentariat bubble, Jones has no idea that the rest of us might want to use pseudonyms on the internet because we might be monitored by bosses. Either because we are posting at work, or because we might have views that they disagree with. Or even that we might want to have a moan about our work.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2014)

And because we're not monetizing  ourselves as brands.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 12, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Being part of the commentariat bubble, Jones has no idea that the rest of us might want to use pseudonyms on the internet because we might be monitored by bosses. Either because we are posting at work, or because we might have views that the disagree with. Or even that we might want to have a moan about our work.



Pretty much. Dude is delusional to expect people to simply reveal themselves online when he requests it.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 12, 2014)

PC Owen Jones, unmasking the great unwatched.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 12, 2014)

Owen Jones: Loves anonymous 5* Amazon reviews for his book. Hates anonymous people challenging him on Twitter.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And because we're not monetizing  ourselves as brands.



Oh I _am_ doing that, not just under my actual name


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2014)

just monetizing my hotness tbf


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Way to be late to the party, fatboy. That was a _week_ ago. I said my thing, el-rabbitchops exercised his right to reply and all's well that ends well, the thread moves on, the world keeps turning etc. Until cue the arrival of some beardy fat _sac_ whose arrogance won't allow him to consider the possibility that the world could ever keep turning without first hearing his opinion on the issues that six days ago wrapped yesterdays chips. Well it's heard them now so move on, you're only a week late.



It's always good to see the real you peeking out, Frances.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Being part of the commentariat bubble, Jones has no idea that the rest of us might want to use pseudonyms on the internet because we might be monitored by bosses. Either because we are posting at work, or because we might have views that they disagree with. Or even that we might want to have a moan about our work.



It's all to do with our not being Oxbridge.  We haven't learnt the correct way to "sell" ourselves, scum that we are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And because we're not monetizing  ourselves as brands.



Sounds way too much like public masturbation to appeal to me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> just monetizing my hotness tbf



Ah, so you're a crypto-Crabapple-ite, eh?  

(makes note in THE BOOK)


----------



## Greebo (Sep 12, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Way to be late to the party, fatboy. That was a _week_ ago. <snip> Well it's heard them now so move on, you're only a week late.


Sweetie, do pray forgive VP for having had extremely limited internet access for a week on account of residing with netphobes in an area where radio waves (and mobile phone signals) are blocked.

The last I heard, this was a board, not live chat, therefore replies can be made later than you'd like.


----------



## andysays (Sep 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And because we're not monetizing  ourselves as brands.



Does that mean you won't be launching a range of butchersapron Butcher's Aprons any time soon


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 12, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's always good to see the real you peeking out, Frances.






andysays said:


> Does that mean you won't be launching a range of butchersapron Butcher's Aprons any time soon



That's his wanking-den costume.


----------



## andysays (Sep 12, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> ..That's his wanking-den costume.



Sorry Frances, my comment was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek reference to the possibilities of someone "monetising their brand" rather than an opportunity for you to make a dig or continue some sort of spat


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 12, 2014)

Spoilsport.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So Podemos is hosting an event in London called “Rethinking ourselves: Podemos as a part of a new construction of democracy in Europe”. Ok, cool, great - I think we have a lot to learn from Podemos in this country. So who's invited?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apparently he told a mate of mine the other day something along the lines of "if I was in Spain I'd be in Podemos cos different historical conditions blah blah blah.

Shouldn't be a surprise - he's said plenty of times if TUSC or LU ever makes a serious breakthrough he'll grace them with his membership dues...



el-ahrairah said:


> well, you can't really argue with that article.  mostly because all he's doing is recognising that it's quite important really.  it's an exercise in not saying anything whilst appearing to say something, in true politicians style.  have his tweets been criticising the stream of lies and threats coming out of his own party?



It's also an attempt to row back from his not-very-well-received attempt to be the token lefty face of the No campaign.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Apparently he told a mate of mine the other day something along the lines of "if I was in Spain I'd be in Podemos cos different historical conditions blah blah blah.
> 
> Shouldn't be a surprise - he's said plenty of times if TUSC or LU ever makes a serious breakthrough he'll grace them with his membership dues...



Owen Jones in "politically-opportunistic" non-shocker!!


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 12, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Apparently he told a mate of mine the other day something along the lines of "if I was in Spain I'd be in Podemos cos different historical conditions blah blah blah.
> 
> Shouldn't be a surprise - he's said plenty of times if TUSC or LU ever makes a serious breakthrough he'll grace them with his membership dues...
> 
> ...


Forgetting of course that the well-known public commentator in Podemos actually helped found and build it rather than just showing up at the end when it was already successful.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 12, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's also an attempt to row back from his not-very-well-received attempt to be the token lefty face of the No campaign.



I didn't know about that.  See my earlier thing about their employers being No, their supporters are Yes, so they have to keep as quiet as possible (because they're careerist scum.)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 13, 2014)

Someone's desperate to bridge the gap between this thread & _Guardian down the pan_:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/13/were-naming-the-baby-after-noel-edmonds


----------



## SpackleFrog (Sep 13, 2014)

"Another blow for the 'Yes' vote? First the banks threaten to flee an independent Scotland, now it appears the Loch Ness Monster has relocated south of the border!"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ter-relocated-south-border.html#ixzz3DBNjcvFV


----------



## J Ed (Sep 13, 2014)

http://www.clickhole.com/article/st...ult&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook


----------



## J Ed (Sep 13, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Apparently he told a mate of mine the other day something along the lines of "if I was in Spain I'd be in Podemos cos different historical conditions blah blah blah.



Pathetic. So someone who has regular appearances on the BBC and who is a regular columnist in national newspapers, an Oxford education, an elite social circle and an Eton boyfriend feels like he is an outsider who needs to wait for _others _to develop a proper decent alternative before he stops faintly paddling against the flow (while making £££) in neoliberal shit creek?


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 13, 2014)

Owen must have a wardrobe full of those shirts:


----------



## J Ed (Sep 13, 2014)

I notice that there is a comment on the fact that Owen Jones is a proponent of the PPSOE's equivalent in the UK on the coverage of the event from the pro-Podemos publico.es


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 16, 2014)

Is this peak Owen Jones? 

On Thursday, Scotland's people will decide whether to vote for independence.

How they vote is a matter for them, and them alone.   Whether they vote No or Yes, we promise to:  


*Boot out David Cameron and the Tories from Number 10.* Every time the Tories have won an election since 1955 has been on a lower share than the time before. They haven't won a general election since 1992. They couldn't even win in 2010. This is all down to Scots, English and Welsh people refusing to vote for them in ever greater numbers. We will fight to finish the job and finally defeat the Tories for good, whatever the Scottish people decide.



*Give Labour a kick up the backside.* Whether we are Labour supporters who don't think its leaders are doing a good enough job, or people who are fed up with Labour altogether, we do not believe they are offering the inspiring, coherent alternative that we deserve. We will redouble our efforts to hold them to account as long as they fail to do so.



*Build a federal country* *with a national constitution* which devolves powers both to regions and to nations. A new *constitutional convention* must be convened to democratically decide the new constitution.



*Create a socially just country* that breaks with the pro-rich policies of the last generation. A living wage, secure jobs, rights and dignity for working people, affordable homes for all, utilities and services run by the public for the public, real tax justice including an all-out war against tax avoidance, universal free childcare that supports families, the end to devastating social security cuts, a sustainable environment that is defended. A country with no food banks or legal loan sharks. A nation free of prejudice and bigotry.



*Learn from the common, shared, proud traditions of ordinary Scottish, English and Welsh people* who - by confronting those with power - won the right to vote, built our welfare state and NHS, won workers' rights, and confronted sexism, racism and homophobia.



*Change the national anthem.* The current one sucks.
To achieve these goals, we will organise and protest however we can.

http://www.change.org/p/fellow-citizens-whatever-happens-in-indyref-the-status-quo-must-end


----------



## NoXion (Sep 16, 2014)

Only problem I can see with that, is that it isn't radical enough. But that is to be expected, surely?


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Apparently he told a mate of mine the other day something along the lines of "if I was in Spain I'd be in Podemos cos different historical conditions blah blah blah.
> 
> Shouldn't be a surprise - he's said plenty of times if TUSC or LU ever makes a serious breakthrough he'll grace them with his membership dues...
> 
> ...



Apparently the meeting was packed.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

> Ignore the strange dry-eyed weeping from the English – it’s nothing more than British imperialism



In-depth commentary.


----------



## Rural (Sep 18, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Owen must have a wardrobe full of those shirts:



I thought they were both owen Jones, like he was at the waxworks or something. They look very alike imo


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2014)

cousins


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2014)

treelover said:


> Apparently the meeting was packed.


He was rubbish on the Alan Titmarsh show the other day


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> He was rubbish on the Alan Titmarsh show the other day


Too much pistil dipping, not enough pistol whipping


----------



## Rural (Sep 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:
			
		

> cousins


Thnks, i wasnt sure which one was oj for a while


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2014)

Rural said:


> Thnks, i wasnt sure which one was oj for a while




not really! they just look like cousins


----------



## Rural (Sep 18, 2014)

I am gullible lol. From following the twitter link it looks like couple others have asked who is who. That is, if quien means who.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> cousins


----------



## Rural (Sep 18, 2014)

QUOTE="DaveCinzano, post: 13405344, member: 23884"]View attachment 61213 View attachment 61214[/QUOTE]
Whos the 2nd pic?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2014)

Rural said:


> QUOTE="DaveCinzano, post: 13405344, member: 23884"]View attachment 61213 View attachment 61214


Whos the 2nd pic?[/QUOTE]
I think it's one of those dolls that screams and poops and cries that they make high school kids carry around in order to dissuade them from having pre-marital sex. I hope so, otherwise Nicolas Cage's cousin Jason Schwartzman has one helluva ugly baby.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 18, 2014)

treelover said:


> Apparently the meeting was packed.



A phrase with two incompatible meanings.


----------



## Rural (Sep 18, 2014)

That is one odd looking doll/baby.  Even worse than looking at pics of oj & his clones


DaveCinzano said:


> Whos the 2nd pic?


I think it's one of those dolls that screams and poops and cries that they make high school kids carry around in order to dissuade them from having pre-marital sex. I hope so, otherwise Nicolas Cage's cousin Jason Schwartzman has one helluva ugly baby.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 19, 2014)

Rural said:


> Thnks, i wasnt sure which one was oj for a while



It's him in the white jeep effort


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 19, 2014)

Look at these media cunts laughing at a 17-year-old getting something published in their local paper:


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 19, 2014)

FUCK OFF...She's 17.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> FUCK OFF...She's 17.



Here's Caitlin Moran's own stylings-of-a-seventeen-year-old:


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2014)

caitlin can laugh because she was writing for the NME at 17. And we sure did laugh at her then.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 19, 2014)




----------



## Theisticle (Sep 19, 2014)




----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> caitlin can laugh because she was writing for the NME at 17. And we sure did laugh at her then.



See - I told you the NME was both crap and the causal connection of the commentariat contagion.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> See - I told you the NME was both crap and the causal connection of the commentariat contagion.


Ha! Fell right into my trap - it was actually the MM she wrote for.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 19, 2014)

So unpleasant (and not surprising) for someone like Moran to take the piss out of that writer until she finds out she's a 17-year-old on work experience. Then starts backtracking with faint praise.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Ha! Fell right into my trap - it was actually the MM she wrote for.



YOU WIN THIS ROUND APRON - BUT WE SHALL MEET AGAIN.



She also wrote for the Daily Telegraph, if memory serves.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2014)

In her own words:

*My glorious career? I won it in a competition*

*Caitlin Moran*
Published at 12:00AM, November 26 2007

_It’s not the way you’re supposed to do it (a bit like Gary Numan marrying one of his fans, or something: not quite done), but I won my career in a competition – like it was an LCD TV, or a year’s supply of Primula._

In 1990 The Observer ran a Young Reporter Of The Year contest, which I entered – primarily out of the terrifying realisation that, as I lived in Wolverhampton, this was about as near as I was ever going to get to an “in” to “the media” – and won. I was 15. Afterwards, the lovely people from The Observer said I’d won because every other entry had been a straight, prim report of some local event, such as a fête, or body-popping tournament. Not having read the rules properly, I did mine in the style of a Kate Adie war report, but on the subject of washing my three-year-old sister’s hair, instead.

Winning the competition, and subsequently being given a weekly column during the summer holidays, absolutely changed my life. Not least because, with the money they paid me – £150 a column! I was the richest person in Wolverhampton, apart from the owner of Cash Converters! – I was finally able to buy a bed, and some tights, and, erm, some fags, but it’s best to ignore that. Primarily, though, the competition acted as a positive invitation to be considered a journalist. I have no idea what it’s like in the present day for lower-middle, working class and underclass kids, but certainly in 1990 – with no prospect of university or “contacts”, or even a train ticket down to London, where all the newspapers were – it was the only chance going.

Anyone thinking of entering a journalism competition should consider a few, brief pieces of advice. 1) Read as many published journalists as you can – study what makes the awful ones awful, and subtly steal what makes the good ones good. 2) Write every day, until it’s as natural to you as eating or thinking. 3) Write as you talk – it’s the quickest way to end what can be a 15-year dilemma entitled “Oh, when will I ‘find’ my ‘writing style’?” And finally: don’t buy fags with the winnings. Apparently, I found out recently, they give you cancer! Unbelievable.​
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/caitlinmoran/article2051041.ece


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 19, 2014)

Christ. Her style of writing is insufferable.


----------



## Rural (Sep 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> In her own words:
> 
> *My glorious career? I won it in a competition*
> 
> ...


She had to buy her own bed at age 15? Is she really trying to push the cliche of grim up north(in the midlands,w/e)?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2014)

'I think it was having to appeal to all ages, all types, right from the beginning. I wrote my first book at eight, all of four pages. At 10, I did a 40-page story. At 12 I wrote two stage plays. One was called Are You Being Ignored and was set in a supermarket. The other was called Hello Bathsheba about a bloke who breaks his leg playing golf, decides his life is finished and becomes a Buddhist monk. I wrote everything to amuse my younger brothers and sisters - and my parents. I was trying to amuse all of them, at the same time. That's why I can now Entertain the Masses.'​
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ndit----and-typical-teenage-slob-1436595.html


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Sep 19, 2014)

Vice/Guardian journo


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2014)

Honest at least. 

_Our _and _allow_. Feel our imperial master informal internalised boot.


----------



## killer b (Sep 19, 2014)

That's quite well written for a local newspaper restaurant review. Loads of the cultural / review type stuff seems to be either syndicated or done by enthusiastic amateurs & work experience kids these days. Probably always has been.


----------



## Dandred (Sep 19, 2014)




----------



## Rural (Sep 19, 2014)

I


killer b said:


> That's quite well written for a local newspaper restaurant review. Loads of the cultural / review type stuff seems to be either syndicated or done by enthusiastic amateurs & work experience kids these days. Probably always has been.


 Couldnt see anything wrong with that review, it was well written imo & i agreed with most of what she said about pizza ex. It didnt strike me as hilarious in any way.


----------



## killer b (Sep 19, 2014)

Christ, it isn't well written, it's crap and a bit daft. but, y'know. kids need to learn how to write, and cheap local media groups need to get their local copy from somewhere too.


----------



## Rural (Sep 20, 2014)

Well I understood it clearly, which to me is "well written"! Lol. I am not clever but I couldn't see anything really wrong with it, she described the food/experience clearly.


----------



## Dandred (Sep 20, 2014)

When are we going to see a column by one of urban's over qualified commentary?


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 22, 2014)

What a crappy sketch. The face proportions are all wrong:


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 22, 2014)

The heads too small for starters.


----------



## rekil (Sep 22, 2014)

"So-called leftists and progressives" accuse LP of being too big for her boots but here the artist depicts her with a deft ironic flourish as being _too small_ for them. Makes you think.

Not sure how someone of LP's background can be accused of being "uppity". If anything, she is well "downitty" - a posho fantasising about adventures in plucky outsiderism. Exhibit H(13).


----------



## rekil (Sep 22, 2014)

On top of everything else, that looks a little bit cultural appropriation. I know people are bored with her shit, but fuck me, that's a proper cracker, one for muscovyduck's files.

'White unexamined privilege mansplainer in hammersmith palais'.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> 'White unexamined privilege mansplainer in hammersmith palais'.


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 23, 2014)

copliker said:


> On top of everything else, that looks a little bit cultural appropriation. I know people are bored with her shit, but fuck me, that's a proper cracker, one for muscovyduck's files.
> 
> 'White unexamined privilege mansplainer in hammersmith palais'.


Going to have wifi as of next week so I should be able to start finishing the thing off.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 23, 2014)

copliker said:


> "So-called leftists and progressives" accuse LP of being too big for her boots but here the artist depicts her with a deft ironic flourish as being _too small_ for them. Makes you think.
> 
> Not sure how someone of LP's background can be accused of being "uppity". If anything, she is well "downitty" - a posho fantasising about adventures in plucky outsiderism. Exhibit H(13).



soi disant


----------



## JimW (Sep 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> soi disant


So _you _say...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 23, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> soi disant


SNEERILY TALKING IN AIR QUOTES & ITALICS


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> caitlin can laugh because she was writing for the NME at 17. And we sure did laugh at her then.


 
i thought she was a Melody Maker writer.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 23, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i thought she was a Melody Maker writer.



Careful now, once butchers is finished "jerking it", you'll catch hell.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 23, 2014)

you've been waiting for ages to shoe-horn that in.

Anyway, i checked and she did write for Melody Maker.

Not that it really matters, it's more because i used to read NME in the 90s and found the Melody Maker too frivilous.  I questioned my own knowledge of music journalists of the NME 1992-1997

*shakes head sadly at self*


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2014)

The Great Red Hope and his new best friend, the never knowingly underbreathalysed former ‘Victory To Unita’ poster boy


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2014)

"Victory to UNITA"? What brand of fuckery is this?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "Victory to UNITA"? What brand of fuckery is this?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 24, 2014)

what's a UNITA?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 24, 2014)

its ok, i looked it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNITA


----------



## treelover (Sep 24, 2014)

Is that Guido Fawkes?

wtf?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 24, 2014)

He was one of those Federation of Conservative fuckers, Tebbit shut them down.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2014)

Belushi said:


> He was one of those Federation of Conservative fuckers, Tebbit shut them down.



Sudden mental image of Judge Tebbit, astride his Lawmaster, rounding up FCS perps and consigning them to the iso-cubes.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2014)

A snippet on Staines:

_Staines’s past political involvement came back to haunt him when a ‘Home Office official’ tried to put the screws on him:_

“He said, ‘look, I know who you are, we know all about you’, because I had a Special Branch record from being in politics, working in extreme groups. They couldn’t work it out: ‘You’re a right wing Tory, why are you doing this?’ Because I’m doing loads of E and having a great time!”​


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Sudden mental image of Judge Tebbit, astride his Lawmaster, rounding up FCS perps and consigning them to the iso-cubes.


More Dead Man than Old Stoney Face


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 24, 2014)

Which of us _hasn't_ necked a load of Mitsubishis, gone out raving and ended up the night supporting an armed Maoist group?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Which of us _hasn't_ necked a load of Mitsubishis, gone out raving and ended up the night supporting an armed Maoist group?


‘Back in the day’ that's how you knew you'd had a good night


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> its ok, i looked it up.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNITA


How are you getting on with this new-fangled internet thingy?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 24, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Which of us _hasn't_ necked a load of Mitsubishis, gone out raving and ended up the night supporting an armed Maoist group?


It's the South African proxy bit, whilst his mates - and the current speaker of the house - were up their their necks in hang mandela filth that's raising eyebrows.


----------



## JimW (Sep 24, 2014)

Owen misheard him and thought he used to subscribe to Umanita Nova. Or he just doesn't care.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 24, 2014)

JimW said:


> Owen misheard him and thought he used to subscribe to Umanita Nova. Or he just doesn't care.


I bet he didn't have to buy a drink all conference. And no one had to ask why staines was there either.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 24, 2014)

hes got guido in headlock territory and a glass bottle in the other hand. Connect the fucking dots Owen!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's the South African proxy bit, whilst his mates - and the current speaker of the house - were up their their necks in hang mandela filth that's raising eyebrows.



Aye. On the wrong side of history. Must have seemed so _daring_ to the FCS at the time.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 24, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> How are you getting on with this new-fangled internet thingy?



it'll never catch on.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Sep 24, 2014)

...and in today's episode, we have the Boy Jones driving a bulldozer straight into Not All Men! territory: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/men-stand-together-emma-watson-misogyny

And as to where he gets his "understanding" of mental health issues from....what did he do, read up on all this from the back of a packet of fucking Cornflakes?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2014)

well looky here, I think someone still reads urban:



> *Laurie PennyVerified account * ‏@*PennyRed*
> Oh internet, we have so much in common. I, too, love the word 'cockwombles.' Let's say it again, together. Cockwombles.


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 25, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> ...and in today's episode, we have the Boy Jones driving a bulldozer straight into Not All Men! territory: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/men-stand-together-emma-watson-misogyny
> 
> And as to where he gets his "understanding" of mental health issues from....what did he do, read up on all this from the back of a packet of fucking Cornflakes?



I don' think it's a bad piece overall. That said, I can't help thinking his passing mention of mental health issues is less than relevant to the causes thereof, It also takes rather more than a little soundbite to make it much more than lip service.


----------



## krink (Sep 26, 2014)

Can someone techno-clever grab the boy Jones' latest tweet about us all following IS's script? I want to check it is real and I didn't just imagine it. Ta.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 26, 2014)

Nick Cohen rallies against Oxford PPE's - a place where he also studied:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9322492/the-politics-of-ppe/


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 26, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Sep 27, 2014)

A PD militant captures the moment Owen's new book reaches the barrios of Stroud.



Spoiler


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 27, 2014)

*applause*


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2014)

Nick 'ten years on, the case for invading Iraq is still valid' Cohen:

How an Oxford degree – PPE – created a robotic governing class



> A remarkable number of the politicians voters despised for their tricks learnt their politics at Oxford: David Cameron, William Hague, Theresa May, Jeremy Hunt, Ed Davey, Danny Alexander. Matthew Hancock, Ed Miliband, David Miliband, Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Angela Eagle, Maria Eagle, Rachel Reeves and Stuart Wood. There are more PPE graduates in the Commons than Old Etonians (35 to 20). Remember I am not talking about Oxbridge-educated politicians, who make up 50 per cent of ministers and 28 per cent of MPs, but the graduates of just one Oxford course.



Guess what Cohen forgets to mention in this article?


----------



## Sue (Sep 28, 2014)

PPE Oxford according to Wikipedia.  Maybe it just slipped his mind..?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2014)

Sue said:


> PPE Oxford according to Wikipedia.  Maybe it just slipped his mind..?


Maybe media dominance by this type just doesn't matter eh Nick?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2014)

The piece itself is a great example of appalling naivety that probably stems from his shallow PPE education. Non-PPE graduate politicians across all states and parties are making the same appalling decisions, almost as if there's some structural pressure for them to do so rather than a series of unconnected wrong choices made over and over again all over the world because of wrong degree choice. So his argument has some merit in that field he works in but forgot to apply it to, but very little in that part of the world where he did.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The piece itself is a great example of appalling naivety that probably stems from his shallow PPE education. Non-PPE graduate politicians across all states and parties are making the same appalling decisions, almost as if there's some structural pressure for them to do so rather than a series of unconnected wrong choices made over and over again all over the world because of wrong degree choice. So his argument has some merit in that field he works in but forgot to apply it to, but very little in that part of the world where he did.



Structural pressure? Pshaw and fie, good sir!


----------



## rekil (Sep 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> http://www.vice.com/read/lulz-and-leg-irons-in-the-courtroom-with-weev
> 
> 
> That's this pathetic cunt.



Like a runt kitten trying to act hard.



His okcupid profile is a hoot

http://ads.okcimg.com/profile/weev?cf=profile


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2014)

link doesn't work copliker


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Sep 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> link doesn't work copliker



Yes it does.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> Like a runt kitten trying to act hard.
> 
> View attachment 61853
> 
> ...



A little puppy.  A racist Scrappy-Doo.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes it does.


My computer must be blocking it for some reason then. Probably for the best.


----------



## andysays (Sep 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> My computer must be blocking it for some reason then. Probably for the best.



Have you upgraded your "arrogantnaziarseholeblock" software recently?


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> Like a runt kitten trying to act hard.
> 
> View attachment 61853
> 
> ...



Bloody hell. That tattoo!


----------



## rekil (Sep 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> link doesn't work copliker


It should work if you manually cut and paste it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2014)

copliker said:


> Like a runt kitten trying to act hard.
> 
> View attachment 61853
> 
> ...



Probably worth mentioning that he _will_ see who has visited his profile (unless you have a paid-for OKC profile and are browsing invisibly), and given his creepy predilections, that might not be something everyone would want to risk.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2014)

andysays said:


> Have you upgraded your "arrogantnaziarseholeblock" software recently?


I think I must have. That tattoo really isn't my thing...


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2014)

and even crabapple called him an asshole


----------



## rekil (Sep 30, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Probably worth mentioning that he _will_ see who has visited his profile (unless you have a paid-for OKC profile and are browsing invisibly), and given his creepy predilections, that might not be something everyone would want to risk.


Ok, so if you're on the site, you can _hax0r it_ by not logging in and just pasting the link. If you can't be bothered, it's this kind of thing. 



> *What I’m doing with my life*
> I manage a hedge fund.
> 
> *I’m really good at*
> ...





equationgirl said:


> and even crabapple called him an asshole


An arsehole she approves of enough to paint portraits of.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2014)

like a poundshop edward norton from AHX


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> like a poundshop edward norton from AHX


Whilst we're on the subject of gropey hipsters who think they're, like, so transgressive and shit, but like, I don't even care about that, how about this Sam Pepper dude?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-assault-claims-from-teenage-fan-9753870.html
http://sourcefed.com/reports-of-sexual-assault-and-rape-continue-to-build-against-sam-pepper/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29404364


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 1, 2014)

Who is Sam Pepper ? Has he been on X.Factor?


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 1, 2014)

Best explanation of Sam Pepper:


----------



## rekil (Oct 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> like a poundshop edward norton from AHX


Bodyshaming - who's the _real_ nazi here?


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 1, 2014)

Jesus wept:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112903/molly-crabapple-and-occupy-wall-street-protest-art


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2014)

ink is a little bit like blood sometimes. lol.


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 1, 2014)

What a shitty Commentariat awards shortlist. LOL at James Bloodworth being nominated for independent blogger:

http://www.commentawards.com/category-shortlists.htm


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2014)

I really really despise tonybee's pompous style. It's like plain speaking was murdered in its cradle. And she's so often just wrong, badly wrong. It's one thing to mock twitter personalities and  vloggers but people like her are writing for a national mainstream newspaper with ever more insipid and puerile references to institutes and existing structure with zero critical analysis. the apotheosis of fabian I-know-better. Jog on.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> What a shitty Commentariat awards shortlist. LOL at James Bloodworth being nominated for independent blogger:
> 
> http://www.commentawards.com/category-shortlists.htm


Where the actual fuck is urban on this list?

*Best Online Comment Site Sponsored by Virgin Media*
*Shortlist:*

*Financial Times*
*Mumsnet*
*New Statesman*
*Sub-Scribe*
**


----------



## rekil (Oct 2, 2014)

Would be good crack if lauriepenny ever came back and was asked to explain why after labelling people here racists and misogynists, she supported this scum

dailystormer dot com/what-i-learned-from-my-time-in-prison/


----------



## Limerick Red (Oct 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> Would be good crack if lauriepenny ever came back and was asked to explain why after labelling people here racists and misogynists, she supported this scum
> 
> dailystormer dot com/what-i-learned-from-my-time-in-prison/


can you repost what support she has given him? it seems to be unbelievable, Ive seen one or two references in this thread but wasnt aware of who this cunt was


----------



## rekil (Oct 2, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> can you repost what support she has given him? it seems to be unbelievable, Ive seen one or two references in this thread but wasnt aware of who this cunt was


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2014)

copliker said:


> Would be good crack if lauriepenny ever came back and was asked to explain why after labelling people here racists and misogynists, she supported this scum
> 
> dailystormer dot com/what-i-learned-from-my-time-in-prison/


But...but...how could anyone tell what he was really like?


----------



## rekil (Oct 2, 2014)

"I still have my journo L plates "

"wait, you can use topsy.com to see if your little geek chum is a massive racist?"


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Nick Cohen rallies against Oxford PPE's - a place where he also studied:
> 
> http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9322492/the-politics-of-ppe/



That's a perceptive article.  Things were much better when our politicians all read Greats.  Yes I'm serious.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The piece itself is a great example of appalling naivety that probably stems from his shallow PPE education. Non-PPE graduate politicians across all states and parties are making the same appalling decisions, almost as if there's some structural pressure for them to do so rather than a series of unconnected wrong choices made over and over again all over the world because of wrong degree choice. So his argument has some merit in that field he works in but forgot to apply it to, but very little in that part of the world where he did.



It is entirely possible for individuals to withstand and even remove "structural pressure," provided that their education has equipped them with the necessary historical perspective.  Which PPE singularly fails to do.


----------



## rekil (Oct 2, 2014)

Another one that used occupy as a career springboard. Friend of LP's natch. You people.


----------



## Combustible (Oct 2, 2014)

Who are the _real_ nazis?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Bloody hell. That tattoo!



There is a vacancy waiting in the English voodoo.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

Combustible said:


> Who are the _real_ nazis?





I blame morrisey for this level of stupid


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

The idiot has been featured on gawker. It makes me wonder, if someone is a youngish hipster and a 'hacker' then just what _would_ they have to say to be denounced by the likes of Laurie Penny?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

from the gawker article I can't tell if he was already fash or if he met some charming gentlemen from the AB inside and subscribed to the newsletter


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> from the gawker article I can't tell if he was already fash or if he met some charming gentlemen from the AB inside and subscribed to the newsletter



I think he was like that before he went to prison as well

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-drove-weev-home-from-prison



> A white power anthem blared from the van’s speakers while I drove away from the prison, and weev sang along, "There's no crime in being white!" As we headed back to New York, weev detailed his experience behind bars, where he’d smelted jewelry, read some epic poetry, and started a small Greek yogurt business. “A lot of pedophiles like to tell other people in prison that they're hackers,” he said. “And I got to call all of those fuckers out, which was great. I say gas ‘em, just gas ‘em all."
> 
> If you know weev, this doesn’t surprise you. Anyone who takes him too seriously will end up offended, as he utters his off-color commentary like a 4chan comment thread read aloud. Notorious troll or not, weev's lack of a filter has made him many a friend; I learned that famously abrasive comedian Doug Stanhope contributed $100 to weev's post-jail fund, a fund that swelled by over $3,000 in the time it took us to drive out to the prison and pick him up.
> 
> Exiting the Holland Tunnel, and heading into Lower Manhattan past the familiar sight of Zuccotti Park, weev reflected on his time at Occupy. We parked, reunited him with a backpack he’d left behind 13 months ago at his sentencing, and walked upstairs to a friend’s apartment where a small welcome party had assembled. Close friends and supporters awaiting Andrew’s arrival popped champagne bottles, applauded, and cheered, “Hail Eris! Hail victory!”



...but he's a hacker with a beard that uses 4chan and is famous in the media! He must be fine!


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

Not like those horrible nasty EDL people who like football and drink stella and don't even "work for a living"!


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> from the gawker article I can't tell if he was already fash or if he met some charming gentlemen from the AB inside and subscribed to the newsletter


I think he was banging on about jews on youtube years ago, and coming out with this kind of thing before LP and co backed him.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I think he was like that before he went to prison as well
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-drove-weev-home-from-prison
> 
> ...




Some old prison regime they have over there . It sounds more like one of those free social spaces that our liberal lefty mates had a fad for a few years ago.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think he was banging on about jews on youtube years ago, and coming out with this kind of thing before LP and co backed him.



Ha! Ha! Ha! He's such a _card_! You don't take anything he says _seriously_, do you? You're so _conventional_! So _old left_! Just so _old_!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

> prosecutors exhibited an embarrassing lack of internet know-how,


 lol key issue in the US justice system .


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Some old prison regime they have over there . It sounds more like one of those free social spaces that our liberal lefty mates had a fad for a few years ago.




new yoik district as well so if he was married he could have got a shag every week via the conjugal visit.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

Excellent - a pop up prison yogurt business.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

he says they put him in secure because the authorities think a white man listening to classical music=AB.

nothing to do with the big swastika on his chest. Probably ring cycle as well.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Not like those horrible nasty EDL people who like football and drink stella and don't even "work for a living"!


Well, quite.  It stands to reason that indulgers in traditional British hobbies like football and booze, let alone racism, hold the moral high ground far above anyone on benefits.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent - a pop up prison yogurt business.


‘Finest Greek Yogurt - All profits to Golden Dawn’


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

She name checked him in an appalling article on Icelands Pirate Party last year : 


> Now fringe parties and protest groups are appearing to fill the ideas vacuum. Of these newcomers, the Pirates – a disparate group of hackers, anarchists and digital rights campaigners – are by far the most interesting. Elsewhere in the world, internet activists such as the hacker Andrew “Weev” Auernheimer, the late Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz and many others have been prosecuted and imprisoned for fighting for freedom of information, but these ones are about to get into parliament.



It's like Elisabeth Violet reciting Jack Kerouac on helium


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> ‘Finest Greek Yogurt - All profits to Golden Dawn’




fromage friekorp


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Not like those horrible nasty EDL people who like football and drink stella and don't even "work for a living"!



Of course not! There's no subcultural capital to be harvested from associating with those types. They've never even been to Brooklyn!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

This might have been posted before but this is how she painlessly and seamlessly  excuses his politics in order to write her article and show she is onside with anything that appears to be wadical.



> If one thing unites the hackers and whistleblowers hunted by the US government over the past three years, from Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden to notorious prankster Andrew "weev" Auernheimer, it is that they have little respect for the moral authority of the US government and its mechanisms. They are in their teens and 20s; they grew up in the Bush, Blair and Brown years and came of age just as the financial crash of 2008 swept away the socioeconomic justification for Anglo-American imperialism. The online culture that they helped create believes deeply in transparency and, to that culture, digital activists who risk everything for the public's "right to know" are heroes.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

2008 NYT article. Don't ask me how I found it, awesome h@><0r madskillz. 



> I first met Weev in an online chat room that I visited while staying at Fortuny’s house. “I hack, I ruin, I make piles of money,” he boasted. “I make people afraid for their lives.” On the phone that night, Weev displayed a misanthropy far harsher than Fortuny’s. “Trolling is basically Internet eugenics,” he said, his voice pitching up like a jet engine on the runway. “I want everyone off the Internet. Bloggers are filth. They need to be destroyed. Blogging gives the illusion of participation to a bunch of retards. . . . We need to put these people in the oven!”
> 
> I listened for a few more minutes as Weev held forth on the Federal Reserve and about Jews. Unlike Fortuny, he made no attempt to reconcile his trolling with conventional social norms.





> Weev, Claudia and I hung out in Fullerton for two more nights, always meeting and saying goodbye at the train station. I met their friend Kate, who has been repeatedly banned from playing XBox Live for racist slurs, which she also enjoys screaming at white pedestrians. Kate checked my head for lice and kept calling me “Jew.”



Funny how his harassment of Kathy Sierra was overlooked.


> Over a candlelit dinner of tuna sashimi, Weev asked if I would attribute his comments to Memphis Two, the handle he used to troll Kathy Sierra, a blogger. Inspired by her touchy response to online commenters, Weev said he “dropped docs” on Sierra, posting a fabricated narrative of her career alongside her real Social Security number and address. This was part of a larger trolling campaign against Sierra, one that culminated in death threats. Weev says he has access to hundreds of thousands of Social Security numbers. About a month later, he sent me mine.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

The sort of person tomk&e thought he was.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

Wow the whole 'people are being horrible to me on the internet, buy/consume my product' thing is really taking off. LP should start charging for 'boosting' the ethical personal brand of people this way, maybe she already does.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

Crabapple now claiming that she didn't intend to glorify him with the portrait, done for free for a documentary. A lie methinks! 

 

Here she's giving him #hugs (1:50ish) before he makes a prediction (6:50ish) that the US will become a "third world country" with "new Birminghams, Detroits, and St.Louises".  Little bit racism.



Spoiler


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Wow the whole 'people are being horrible to me on the internet, buy/consume my product' thing is really taking off. LP should start charging for 'boosting' the ethical personal brand of people this way, maybe she already does.




I would have thought that Laurie could have used the Kathy Sierra case as an example of what anti women bullying is all about 



> _How internet abuse works: she displeases him and he tries to punish her. He posts doctored photos of her to the web. In one, a noose is near her head. In another, her children appear to be performing sex acts. He emails graphic threats about violating her with a chainsaw. He sneers that she is too fat to be loved, and then — missing the irony — calls her a slut. He distributes her Social Security number online. He posts lies about a prostitution bust. Posing as her, he solicits sex in online ads and includes her home address so men knock on her door at all hours. Maybe he’s anonymous but often he doesn’t bother hiding his identity. Why worry? He knows that in his corner of the web, women who complain about harassment are the enemy._
> Kathy Sierra complained. She was one of those who called for help.



Aside from the fact that it was her internet freedom mate Weev who was the perpetrator


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

yoghurt/nazi puns isn't a rich vein. I can't even think of a muller fruit corner one.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> I would have thought that Laurie could have used the Kathy Sierra case as an example of what anti women bullying is all about
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from the fact that it was her internet freedom mate Weev who was the perpetrator


Need a link for that. And this is a mate of laurie et al. And they have the fucking gall to _call others out _for mysognist abuse. House a tumbling.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

How alienated from "the left" (never mind them horrible normals!) must you be that this is the kind of creep you gravitate towards. They have the whole world to write/scrawl about and campaigns to leech off and yet this is what they choose to go with.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Need a link for that. And this is a mate of laurie et al. And they have the fucking gall to _call others out _for mysognist abuse. House a tumblring.




fify


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> fromage friekorp



Finest Greek yoghurt, made from pure Aryan cultures!


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nick 'ten years on, the case for invading Iraq is still valid' Cohen:
> 
> How an Oxford degree – PPE – created a robotic governing class
> 
> ...



The Eagle sisters may have gone to Oxbridge, but they are working class women from Wallasey.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

treelover said:


> The Eagle sisters may have gone to Oxbridge, but they are working class women from Wallasey.


And now they're Oxford educated members of the governing class and the political elite. And partly through having gone to Oxford.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> How alienated from "the left" (never mind them horrible normals!) must you be that this is the kind of creep you gravitate towards. They have the whole world to write/scrawl about and campaigns to leech off and yet this is what they choose to go with.



It's a hipster circle jerk. Someone in the states massages this hipster filth's Nazi cock, and uses the word "trickster" rather than "cunt" to describe him, and then the other lemmings jump on the bandwagon.
It's not like we haven't seen the likes of LP siding with douchebags before. She comfortably excused Malcolm Harris's nonce fantasies using the same "trickster" bullshit.  In Laurie's world you can be a depraved cunt, just as long as you justify your depravity in a suitably "happening" manner.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a hipster circle jerk. Someone in the states massages this hipster filth's Nazi cock, and uses the word "trickster" rather than "cunt" to describe him, and then the other lemmings jump on the bandwagon.
> It's not like we haven't seen the likes of LP siding with douchebags before. She comfortably excused Malcolm Harris's nonce fantasies using the same "trickster" bullshit.  In Laurie's world you can be a depraved cunt, just as long as you justify your depravity in a suitably "happening" manner.


It's symptomatic of her belief that she's part of an idealised elite comprised of writers, journalists, artists, geeks, various famous types, the _smart_ people she's so relentlessly desperate to seek approval from. Her anti-normals prejudices are never far from the surface, informed by her background where she was brought up with a cast iron sense of entitlement and the expectation that she's destined to be part of society's officer class. I couldn't find anything, but I expect wee man there is a private school sort as well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's symptomatic of her belief that she's part of an idealised elite comprised of writers, journalists, artists,* geeks,* various famous types, the _smart_ people she's so relentlessly desperate to seek approval from. Her anti-normals prejudices are never far from the surface, informed by her background where she was brought up with a cast iron sense of entitlement and the expectation that she's destined to be part of society's officer class. I couldn't find anything, but I expect wee man there is a private school sort as well.



ignoring the fact that theres nothing special about being into sf and fantasy, the genres can and do stray into reactionary and questionable paths in the hands of _wrong _writers.

There's nothing special about being able to name 5 space marine chapters. Geek stuff is mainstream now. Has been since before I was born, waxing and waning as cultural trends do. Why carrying some pratchett torch is outre to these people is baffling.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's symptomatic of her belief that she's part of an idealised elite comprised of writers, journalists, artists, geeks, various famous types, the _smart_ people she's so relentlessly desperate to seek approval from. Her anti-normals prejudices are never far from the surface, informed by her background where she was brought up with a cast iron sense of entitlement and the expectation that she's destined to be part of society's officer class. I couldn't find anything, but I expect wee man there is a private school sort as well.


 
I think it's also symptomatic of the  attitude that people have that if we all just made the right choices - eat the right meat (or no meat), wear the right clothes, listen to the right music and so on then everything will change for the better and we can have whatever utopia the intersectionalistas pretend to want. A side effect of this attitude is that the likes of Laurie Penny is able to accept people with views that are really fucking out there, neo-Nazi out there, as long as they are making the right subcultural and consumer choices... oh and are from the right sort of class background.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

double post


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I think it's also symptomatic of the  attitude that people have that if we all just made the right choices - eat the right meat (or no meat), wear the right clothes, listen to the right music and so on then everything will change for the better and we can have whatever utopia the intersectionalistas pretend to want. A side effect of this attitude is that the likes of Laurie Penny is able to accept people with views that are really fucking out there, neo-Nazi out there, as long as they are making the right subcultural and consumer choices... oh and are from the right sort of class background.




politics as a lifestyle choice. The likes of weev would still be cracking jokes and acting the wacky fool as he voted for yellow stars- I wonder if his soi disant left commenteriat supporters realise how it isn't just an ironic posture.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

you don't write that sort of anti semite filth without conviction.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Another one that used occupy as a career springboard. Friend of LP's natch. You people.



The recent discussion below that tweet is quite astonishing. She tells someone off for use of 'violent language'. Shortly after saying she's had more than one neo-nazi friend.

I mean, you can't argue against that. It's not even worth arguing is it? It's purely about power. She has the power to decide what is or isn't acceptable. Not you. Her. That's it.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

Makes you think.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Makes you think.




The bad sort of racism.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 3, 2014)

Doesn't every group of friends have a token neo-nazi midget? You lot are so fucking provincial.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Makes you think.





of course endorsing an ideology that has the most viscious and disgusting racism built into the fabric is ok if its just your mate 'trolling'


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

In the great market place of ideas there are no right or wrong purchases. Such a proposition would be anti consumer choice. And as such against that which underpins our great anti capitalist movement of movements.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> The bad sort of racism.


Maybe somebody let slip that they liked Avril's hello kitty tune.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Oct 3, 2014)

Who the fuck ARE these people. Fucking bonkers. Never used twitter and only see these posts here. Seems hard to believe they actually exist.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> from the gawker article I can't tell if he was already fash or if he met some charming gentlemen from the AB inside and subscribed to the newsletter


It said he'd been a long-time spouter of racist and anti-semetic shite so my money's on 'already fash'.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Who the fuck ARE these people. Fucking bonkers. Never used twitter and only see these posts here. Seems hard to believe they actually exist.


Would like to see them last in the real world.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 3, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Who the fuck ARE these people. Fucking bonkers. Never used twitter and only see these posts here. Seems hard to believe they actually exist.



I'd put money on that being a fake tattoo too.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 3, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Doesn't every group of friends have a token neo-nazi midget? You lot are so fucking provincial.


 I know  

In the spirit of True Hipster-Commentariat Tolerance, I'd *like* to be able to say that 'some of my best friends are Nazis'. But they aren't. Quinn Norton can say that and it is true. But I just can't. I have no Nazi friends at all. I've not been keeping up with the times have I? 


PS. THE TIMES ARE FUCKED IF PEOPLE CAN GET AWAY WITH SPOUTING THIS SHIT.

What? No. I didn't say anything. Everything normal here.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> In the great market place of ideas there are no right or wrong purchases. Such a proposition would be anti consumer choice. And as such against that which underpins our great anti capitalist movement of movements.



Can you take your idea back to the place of purchace for a free exchange within a 28 day period if you decide you've bought the wrong one, though?


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> fromage friekorp



Oi!kos


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2014)

chilango said:


> Oi!kos


 
Arbeit Mactivia Frei


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Arbeit Mactivia Frei



Muller Reich


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2014)

chilango said:


> Muller Reich


Reichals Organic


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> Can you take your idea back to the place of purchace for a free exchange within a 28 day period if you decide you've bought the wrong one, though?


Laurie does it all the time. Contrast an extract from her buke with the 'having a go' (little bit revolutionary socialism) at whoever is running Miliband's twitter machine, a straight outta oxbridge intern probably. Tbf I suspect she only weighed in so she could get her brand on the hashtag.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

I only know Tesco Everyday Value Low Fat Fruit Yoghurt 4X12 for 33p. 

I feel like i'm being excluded here.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2014)

So Laurie's idea of mutiny is asking Ed Miliband what he's going to do?

I think she should be taking her dictionary (or maybe her education) back to the place of purchase for a refund, never mind an exchange


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

Mutiny on the buses.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I only know Tesco Everyday Value Low Fat Fruit Yoghurt 4X12 for 33p.
> 
> I feel like i'm being excluded here.



Go away and don't come back until you can afford the sort of life style which enables you to make yoghurt based puns


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I only know Tesco Everyday Value Low Fat Fruit Yoghurt 4X12 for 33p.
> 
> I feel like i'm being excluded here.



You need to broaden your horizons and experience some other cultures.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

Mutiny On The Harvard Fellowship


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

chilango said:


> You need to broaden your horizons and experience some other cultures.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 3, 2014)

Where I grew up, yoghurt was for poofs.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

> "@PennyRed: Any law put in place to combat 'terrorism' will eventually be used against minorities and dissidents. Show me where this isn't true."



Show me a country that doesn't have any anti terrorist laws.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where I grew up, yoghurt was for poofs.



Labour Party area?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 3, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Labour Party area?



Just a bit.  Even drainpipe jeans were for poofs.

Pretty much everything was for poofs actually.  Lucky poofs, if only there had been any.


----------



## Buckaroo (Oct 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where I grew up, yoghurt was for poofs.



When you grow up. Poof? Really? You haven't just let yourself down etc


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 3, 2014)

chilango said:


> experience some other cultures.



Probiotic yoghurts?

I'm still struggling to figure out the logic behind Penny Dreadful claiming to be a journalist, traditionally a job involving freedom of speech, information and opinion, while having closed comments on her blog.


----------



## fogbat (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie does it all the time. Contrast an extract from her buke with the 'having a go' (little bit revolutionary socialism) at whoever is running Miliband's twitter machine, a straight outta oxbridge intern probably. Tbf I suspect she only weighed in so she could get her brand on the hashtag.
> 
> View attachment 61953



Bad porn, obviously.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where I grew up, yoghurt was for poofs.


And healthfreaks, often of the hippy persuasion.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2014)

credit crunch corners


----------



## Buckaroo (Oct 3, 2014)

I know political correctness gone mad and all that but is using the word 'poof' acceptable now? Seems a bit Clarkson.


phildwyer said:


> Even drainpipe jeans were for poofs.
> Pretty much everything was for poofs actually.  Lucky poofs, if only there had been any.



What next nigger?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> I know political correctness gone mad and all that but is using the word 'poof' acceptable now? Seems a bit Clarkson.
> 
> 
> What next nigger?


It was meant as reported speech - like what the kids he grew up with would say. Like me talking about my dad calling paul weller a poof but without putting it in quotes. He writes a load of priviliged shit now, but this is not one he's done wrong.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Just a bit.  Even drainpipe jeans were for poofs.
> 
> Pretty much everything was for poofs actually.  Lucky poofs, if only there had been any.


Since when is it acceptable to use 'poof'. ffs dwyer. Please fuck off.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It was meant as reported speech - like what the kids he grew up with would say. Like me talking about my dad calling paul weller a poof but without putting it in quotes. He writes a load of priviliged shit now, but this is not one he's done wrong.


Not sure I buy that explanation to be honest.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Not sure I buy that explanation to be honest.


It's what happened. Phil doesn't use the word poof in any way but as a memory of his (supposed) past and how people expressed themselves. Poofs was and still is common. I've used the term in the same way on here. This is the wrong tunnel to bark down.


----------



## Buckaroo (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It was meant as reported speech - like what the kids he grew up with would say. Like me talking about my dad calling paul weller a poof but without putting it in quotes. He writes a load of priviliged shit now, but this is not one he's done wrong.


I see what you mean for the first post as reported speech but not sure about the follow up.


phildwyer said:


> Even drainpipe jeans were for poofs.
> Pretty much everything was for poofs actually.  Lucky poofs, if only there had been any.


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2014)

give over ffs. Its obvious what Phil was doing (hint: No, he isn't a homophobe)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> I see what you mean for the first post as reported speech but not sure about the follow up.


He's saying gay people were forced to hide - so there weren't any. Partly through abuse of people as poofs and people seeing threatening poofs everywhere. Any deviation from standard style =poof. I'm right on this one. Trust me.

How do we explain shakey though?


----------



## Buckaroo (Oct 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> give over ffs. Its obvious what Phil was doing (hint: No, he isn't a homophobe)



Ok ffs! Wasn't that obvious to me, that's all!


----------



## Buckaroo (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He's saying gay people were forced to hide - so there weren't any. Partly through abuse of people as poofs and people seeing threatening poofs everywhere. Any deviation from standard style =poof. I'm right on this one. Trust me.
> 
> How do we explain shakey though?



Fair enough.

Shakey?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Shakey?


Drain pipe trew hell in phils home town:


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

On  related note these could probably go in the unfashionable 80s bands thread. The street racists gave us their album for christmas cos it was the kind of thing that gets dumped in the bargain bin. It seemed a bit tame for us at the time, definitely nowhere as good as Shaky, so my brother gave it to the school teddy boy. I didn't like their clothes either. Still playing apparently.


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

btw, if anyone feels like grassing themselves up (or trolling)....


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Drain pipe trew hell in phils home town:




Shakey was most definitely for poofs.  

He was the most hated man in town.  I'd tell you why, but it might lay me open to unfounded allegations.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> btw, if anyone feels like grassing themselves up (or trolling)....



What weird subjects have life (imposed by the state) produced  in her world. Minorities and protesters. Any other fuckers?


----------



## rekil (Oct 3, 2014)

Harvard homework I assume.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> btw, if anyone feels like grassing themselves up (or trolling)....




Fucksake!!!

Given her record of misuse of personal stories people have given her, that's totally out of order.

Someone should really challenge her on that, in case some poor gullible fool actually gives her something.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 3, 2014)

copliker said:


> btw, if anyone feels like grassing themselves up (or trolling)....




Already have done.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2014)

If that is the level her elite course is on - present opposing examples - then what hope for the cleverest boys and girls of this - or indeed, humanities -future generations. Game over.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> If that is the level her elite course is on - present opposing examples - then what hope for the cleverest boys and girls of this - or indeed, humanities -future generations. Game over.



The whole idea of a university course in journalism is daft anyway.  If you have to ask you'll never know.


----------



## rekil (Oct 4, 2014)

Laurie and Molly get the mention on Breitbart.



> This news will come as acutely embarrassing to a number of figures on the political Left who lauded Auernheimer during his trial and incarceration. New Statesman writer Laurie Penny praised Auernheimer in bylined opinion pieces as well as on Twitter, where she called for his release using the hashtag #freeweev.
> 
> Artist and writer Molly Crabapple, another prominent figure on the Left, wrote an emotional account of Auernheimer's sentencing in VICE. "I didn't go there to write an article. I went because his conviction was wrong, and my friends and I cared for him. I meant to be another body filling the courtroom, to provide whatever support that's good for," she opined.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2014)

Won't it be hilarious when it's revealed he's mugged us all. I can't wait to laugh. Laughter will be upon me. Upon us. Laughter is icumen in.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 4, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie and Molly get the mention on Breitbart.


There's an awesome pbman-type comment under that:



> The odd thing is his politics didn't change. He is/was a committed Leftist who now is outspoken in his articulation of the standard views of the Left. Most of the most rabid Communists in Eastern Germany became fervent Neo-Nazis after reunification. They have also adopted Islam as their religion of choice.
> 
> The Left is a continuum of thought that encompasses both National Socialism and International Socialism that they and perhaps you would like to avoid mentioning.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2014)

Damn nazi commie muslims. Sneaking over the border for an ISIS style attack. I'm heading for the ozarks.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 4, 2014)

> Most of the most rabid Communists in Eastern Germany became fervent Neo-Nazis after reunification. They have also adopted Islam as their religion of choice.



This is true. You can barely move for Neo-Nazi muslims in the former DDR.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2014)

Having watched that vid of the freak above outside court - why did they attach themselves to this clown? They wouldn't dare sit next to him on the bus. Why did this happen?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Damn nazi commie muslims. Sneaking over the border for an ISIS style attack.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 61976


Let's not get onto the order of nine angles an all that bollocks. It is a marketplace of ideas though. He made me live in a forest for nine months. Not even a bicycle. Menz of steel.


----------



## rekil (Oct 4, 2014)

lauriepenny said:
			
		

> You lot are hilarious. Really. The number of hours you've wasted ranting, hyperventilating and making up rubbish about me and stalking my friends is no doubt an enormous loss to the British left.


One of your friends is a nazi hacker and actual misogynistic stalker who's capable of compromising the personal security of people by passing information on to rather unpleasant types. #awkward


----------



## chilango (Oct 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Let's not get onto the order of nine angles an all that bollocks. It is a marketplace of ideas though. He made me live in a forest for nine months. Not even a bicycle. Menz of steel.



I lived in a forest for 6 months. I had a bike. But it was broken.

True story.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2014)

When is the PD Response Squad picket at the university she is studying at in the states?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Having watched that vid of the freak above outside court - why did they attach themselves to this clown? They wouldn't dare sit next to him on the bus. Why did this happen?



It exposes the journalists concerned for being the featherweights that they are in their profession. They were either too lazy or too stupid to do basic fact checking on the subject they were reporting on.

The Breitbart article implies that he undertook a political conversion while in prison, but the egotistical narcissism if not outright psychopathy has been evident all along. From a Tweet posted up before:



> I am a friend of @rabite's. I can't believe it took a picture of a swastika for y'all to notice his whole white pride trip. He's not subtle.


----------



## rekil (Oct 4, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> When is the PD Response Squad picket at the university she is studying at in the states?


All US section militants are engaged in leading practically all worthwhile campaigns over there so a Proletarian Security Kommando has been scrambled and is on its way across the atlantic.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> ignoring the fact that theres nothing special about being into sf and fantasy, the genres can and do stray into reactionary and questionable paths in the hands of _wrong _writers.
> 
> There's nothing special about being able to name 5 space marine chapters. Geek stuff is mainstream now. Has been since before I was born, waxing and waning as cultural trends do. Why carrying some pratchett torch is outre to these people is baffling.



A-fuckin-men brother.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> politics as a lifestyle choice. The likes of weev would still be cracking jokes and acting the wacky fool as he voted for yellow stars- I wonder if his soi disant left commenteriat supporters realise how it isn't just an ironic posture.



A-fucking-men brother, volume II


----------



## rekil (Oct 4, 2014)

His youtube account (youtube.com/weevlos) has plenty of racist guff on it from up to 5 years ago - if you have literally nothing else to do and can be bothered sitting through it. He is _extremely_ boring.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2014)

Laurie Penny and Molly Crabapple should be ashamed of themselves for calling weev a friend. Perhaps it's no wonder they don't know what misogyny really looks like.


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 4, 2014)

Yes. They stand unmade. The cry will go up 'we didn't know'. _You knew._


----------



## rekil (Oct 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I only know Tesco Everyday Value Low Fat Fruit Yoghurt 4X12 for 33p.


Butchers doing sponsored posts now?


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 4, 2014)

The Crabapple piece in Vice that copliker posted upthread is the most revealing as to her friendship with this Weev creature:

"I didn't go there to write an article. I went because his conviction was wrong, and my friends and I cared for him. I meant to be another body filling the courtroom, to provide whatever support that's good for. "

"Official internet asshole or not, Weev inspires ride-or-die love."

He's so _loveable! _She sounds like a fucking Mitford sister.

""Hail, Eris," he yelled as the guards led him away. If this were a movie, here's where the crowd would have raised their fists in unison. _We are Weev. We are Spartacus_. A few did raise their fists. But the rest stood as if slapped silent. The black-haired girl doubled over with hard, ugly sobs. "

The _hard, ugly sobs _bit is straight out of the Penny book of faux-profundity...

from here: http://www.vice.com/read/lulz-and-leg-irons-in-the-courtroom-with-weev


----------



## Belushi (Oct 4, 2014)

Sounds like a nice guy, apart from the Nazism and misogyny.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 4, 2014)

chilango said:


> I lived in a forest for 6 months. I had a bike. But it was broken.
> 
> True story.



I used to live in Castlebar. Beat that.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 4, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> The Crabapple piece in Vice that copliker posted upthread is the most revealing as to her friendship with this Weev creature:
> 
> "I didn't go there to write an article. I went because his conviction was wrong, and my friends and I cared for him. I meant to be another body filling the courtroom, to provide whatever support that's good for. "
> 
> ...



This line from her article stands out:



> The prosecutors spun the tale of a brilliant young sociopath.



And she spun the tale of Weev, the victim.

She's out of her depth. It reads more like a passage from a novel than a court report.

Women in the public gallery are 'balled up in tears' and are 'doubled over with hard, ugly sobs'

She herself calls it "art", so I presume with that comes, for her, a freehand to define a narrative divorced from a far more sinister story than she wanted in her simpleton good / evil battle


----------



## chilango (Oct 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I used to live in Castlebar. Beat that.



Did you have a bike?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 4, 2014)

chilango said:


> Did you have a bike?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 4, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Sounds like a nice guy, apart from the Nazism and misogyny.



Nobody's perfect. Apart from the master race, obviously.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 4, 2014)

A chat between the naive, artistic Beauty and the Nazi Beast: twitter.com/mollycrabapple/status/487741192239476736


----------



## J Ed (Oct 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Probiotic yoghurts?
> 
> I'm still struggling to figure out the logic behind Penny Dreadful claiming to be a journalist, traditionally a job involving freedom of speech, information and opinion, while having closed comments on her blog.



Freedom of speech for the monied and bearded.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 4, 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/liberal-democrat-peer-struggle-300-4370228?ICID=FB_mirror_main



> A senior Liberal Democrat has complained that peers cannot get by on the £300 a day they get for turning up at the House of Lords.
> 
> Baroness Olly Grender, who worked as an adviser to Nick Clegg, said that the tax-free payment left peers relying on their partners for financial support.
> 
> ...



From wikipedia



> Grender blogged for the New Statesman magazine.


----------



## inva (Oct 4, 2014)

I think I remember weev coming to fame back in around 2006/2007 as one of the people behind the website Jews Did 9/11 dot com. He was one of the Encyclopedia Dramatica lot who made a name for themselves stalking and harassing people on sites like Livejournal, and that was earlier still. He has a record of this stuff that goes back for nearly a decade at least.


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 5, 2014)

*Molly CrabappleVerified account *‏@*mollycrabapple*  Oct 3
I'm a mixed Puerto Rican Jew. Fuck Nazis. Had much sympathy for an unjustly imprisoned person. Misjudged sincere belief as trolling


...Not sure if she's talking bout Weev's incarceration or Hitler's time in Landsberg...

If he'd been _trolling_, it would have been all good and great japes


----------



## rekil (Oct 5, 2014)

So where's their #FreePeterNunn campaign?

I note that (publically at least) LP has opted to ignore the whole thing and shore up the brand by putting out a 'Social Justice Warriors Are Winning' claptrap piece. Not so much as a #solidarity for poor molly. That's what that education buys you - an ability to keep calm, abandon your mates, at least until it blows over, and carry on.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> So where's their #FreePeterNunn campaign?
> 
> I note that (publically at least) LP has opted to ignore the whole thing and shore up the brand by putting out a 'Social Justice Warriors Are Winning' claptrap piece. Not so much as a #solidarity for poor molly. That's what that education buys you - an ability to keep calm, abandon your mates, at least until it blows over, and carry on.
> 
> View attachment 62051


She does know he has a massive swastika on his chest, right?


----------



## rekil (Oct 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She does know he has a massive swastika on his chest, right?


If she does, she ain't saying so.


----------



## newbie (Oct 5, 2014)

why am I not seeing that here? https://twitter.com/pollytoynbee


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 5, 2014)

inva said:


> I think I remember weev coming to fame back in around 2006/2007 as one of the people behind the website Jews Did 9/11 dot com. He was one of the Encyclopedia Dramatica lot who made a name for themselves stalking and harassing people on sites like Livejournal, and that was earlier still. He has a record of this stuff that goes back for nearly a decade at least.


Still on LJ apparently, where he posts a mix of open source rants and support for white supremacist murderers.


----------



## rekil (Oct 5, 2014)

newbie said:


> why am I not seeing that here? https://twitter.com/pollytoynbee


She must've deleted it.


----------



## newbie (Oct 5, 2014)

oh ok, ta.


----------



## rekil (Oct 5, 2014)

newbie said:


> oh ok, ta.


It was me! I trolled you! Inspired by this idiocy, which also suggests to me that their careers won't suffer. They're 'made' luvvies.


----------



## newbie (Oct 5, 2014)

that was my first thought, but it was followed by "no, a fine upstanding urbanite wouldn't do something so dastardly"

Murdoch/Marx was obviously wrong, but you wouldn't have made up abominartions, or so i thought


----------



## rekil (Oct 5, 2014)

That's the best you can do? Go on, give us a "Who are the _real_ nazis?"


----------



## Belushi (Oct 5, 2014)

We're stopping successful women by forcing them to befriend Nazis?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 5, 2014)

Belushi said:


> We're stopping successful women by forcing them to befriend Nazis?



Surely the implication is that we're stopping successful women by forcing them to *de*friend Nazis


----------



## smokedout (Oct 5, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 62055
> 
> That's the best you can do? Go on, give us a "Who are the _real_ nazis?"



wow, i genuinely believd that was another doctored tweet #beyondparody


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 5, 2014)

Who is she calling a successful woman though?


----------



## rekil (Oct 5, 2014)

Herself naturally, and Crabapple, who's done very nicely out of monetizing occupy. Not least the kickstarter where she bagged $65k to paint the same picture 10 times to be sold at $10k a pop.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)

Brian Whelan and Laurie Penny in battle now on Twitter


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)

This is debate: twitter.com/brianwhelanhack/status/518846732420263936

I can't post full link or it tries to embed it in a link. I might just post it up on here... yeah fuck it, it's not that long... hold on..


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)




----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)




----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)




----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)




----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 5, 2014)

and that's it


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> View attachment 62055
> 
> That's the best you can do? Go on, *give us a "Who are the real nazis?"*


There it sort of is. Deflected 30 yard screamer. Back of the net.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2014)

Blimey , looks like I just landed the big one


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

wtaf


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Blimey , looks like I just landed the big one


Yeah he name searches. So avoid giving him the mention. In olden times he would've spelled it w33\/.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2014)

If you build it they will come.

Journalist not aware of nazi views and on reflection didn't find his humour funny and hasn't been on the internet a lot this weekend anyway.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> There it sort of is. Deflected 30 yard screamer. Back of the net.





soi called


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Yeah he name searches. So avoid giving him the mention. In olden times he would've spelled it w33\/.




can we make him go chokey again, not the good kind where there is pop up yoghurt and wagner. The crap kind where there is only gruel, the cawing of crows and bitter lonely wanks at 3am


----------



## J Ed (Oct 6, 2014)

Why is it that when the narrative suits a story Laurie Penny not only identifies as Jewish but heavily implies that she is a practising Jew but when it comes to an actual blood and soil Jew-hating neo-Nazi she has to be dragged kicking and screaming into acknowledging his anti-Semitism all the while accusing those who point out this Nazism of being sexists?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 6, 2014)

Even if we take this



> I absolutely distance myself from his abhorrent politics. I did so back when I thought he was merely a sexist, racist prick



At face value, is there any evidence of it?


----------



## Limerick Red (Oct 6, 2014)

_"The existence of laws like the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act do untold damage not just to activists on the frontline, many of whom do not abuse women and minorities for sport, but to everyone who believes the internet can and should be a tool for liberation rather than just a network of state and corporate control."_

Bizarre, she's like some Robert Owen type character , that thinks a better world can be built somewhere other than the real world.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I used to live in Castlebar. Beat that.


I went out with a girl from Achill for a few years. 

Anyway enjoying Penny getting pulled apart on this on twitter. Not that it will ultimately matter, she will still get paid to write crap in papers etc. Paul Mason will still tweet approvingly about her and Crapapple etc.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 6, 2014)

couldn't see this on here

http://laurie-penny.com/on-weev-fascism-and-the-free-internet/

so it turns out he is a fascist.

who knew.

eta - think it may have been as it's quoted.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

Dan U said:


> couldn't see this on here
> 
> http://laurie-penny.com/on-weev-fascism-and-the-free-internet/





> Samuel  October 6, 2014 at 1:48 am
> It sucks this had to be written, you championed a cause you believed in before a change of circumstances or without being aware of them to start with. *that’s totally not your fault.*




!!!


----------



## Dan U (Oct 6, 2014)

yeah i was a bit wtf at that as well DaveCinzano 

there there journalist, you don't check on facts.

i am fairly sure on this very thread i read some basic googling tasks carried out revealing such inclinations of this twat going back years. 

whole article is a heap of crap.


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> _"The existence of laws like the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act do untold damage not just to activists on the frontline, many of whom do not abuse women and minorities for sport, but to everyone who believes the internet can and should be a tool for liberation rather than just a network of state and corporate control."_
> 
> Bizarre, she's like some Robert Owen type character , that thinks a better world can be built somewhere other than the real world.


It's less to do with a law which I for one don't believe for one second that they give a fuck about and more to do with being desperate to associate themselves with a celebrity 'geek' because that makes them feel cleverer and hipper than you sheeple pricks with your Strictly and your snotty kids and petty beige concerns. From LP's buke, about 'geeks'. Rubbishist bits snipped.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 6, 2014)

> I don’t think anyone- ANYONE- deserves to be in jail merely for using a computer to access information the state would rather they didn’t see or distribute



nonce enabler.

only half joking as well. it's just not thought through is it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


>


_“Not now, Bernard.”_


----------



## weepiper (Oct 6, 2014)

My dad understands more about coding than I do on account of having been writing computer programmes since before I was born. Patronising pish.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

weepiper said:


> My dad understands more about coding than I do on account of having been writing computer programmes since before I was born. Patronising pish.


Now, now - let's not bring the actual real-world life experience of you normals into this. SRS INTRNT BSNSS!


----------



## J Ed (Oct 6, 2014)

I like how she shoehorns in literature there in order to directly link herself as an English graduate to 'hackers'...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 6, 2014)

Old people definitely don't get literature. What with it only being invented in 1994 and everything.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Old people definitely don't get literature. What with it only being invented in 1994 and everything.


There's a reason Georgina Urwell titled her seminal self-published novel about an under-appreciated genius trying to survive in a world of permanent war and mediocrity or something _Nineteen Ninety-Four_. Five star Amazon review and I haven't even finished it!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> It's less to do with a law which I for one don't believe for one second that they give a fuck about and more to do with being desperate to associate themselves with a celebrity 'geek' because that makes them feel cleverer and hipper than you sheeple pricks with your Strictly and your snotty kids and petty beige concerns. From LP's buke, about 'geeks'. Rubbishist bits snipped.
> 
> View attachment 62073


it's hard to see how someone can be an outsider with literature when every bookshop in the land probably has something like jane austen or charles dickens in it, even if it's just propping up a desk or chair.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> There's a reason Georgina Urwell titled her seminal self-published novel about an under-appreciated genius trying to survive in a world of permanent war and mediocrity or something _Nineteen Ninety-Four_. Five star Amazon review and I haven't even finished it!


or the famous 90s rock novel _homage to catatonia_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> or the famous 90s rock novel _homage to catatonia_


Or that meisterwerk challenging the extradition of Gary McKinnon, _Keep The Aspie Disaster From Flying_.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2014)

Private school/Oxbridge mental health issues are much better/worse than anyone elses as the people there are the best and the brightest and so worth more than an ugh...average type:

How Cambridge University almost killed me



> At Britain’s universities many students crumble as they realise they are only average-sized fish in a much larger pond. Part of the problem is that while we are used to praising or criticising students, it is unusual to sympathise with them. Even to themselves, the whining sounds like “poor me”. But the reality is that the pressure is putting thousands of bright young people at risk of serious mental illness.
> 
> Oxbridge is a close-knit collegiate system. Within this system, small communities of extremely motivated individuals live together in the intimate confines of an environment characterised by centuries of academic achievement. Katt Parkins likens it to an Etch-a-Sketch. “You know when you just have to slide off what’s already there and focus on a new drawing?” she says. “It’s like that. You have to focus on your work, so you suppress personal things that you should actually work through. Eventually it builds and builds.”





> “There’s certainly historical data that suggests that there is greater prevalence of mental health difficulties in Oxford and Cambridge,” says Byrom. “Living with a small group of competitive people isn’t easy, and you also then have a competitive environment. I think Oxford and Cambridge are probably happy to admit that they pre-select people at high risk of developing mental health difficulties, because they’re taking high-achieving perfectionist young people, who come to be the best.”



Why was this piece given the internet lead today?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Private school/Oxbridge mental health issues are much better/worse than anyone elses as the people there are the best and the brightest and so worth more than an ugh...average type:
> 
> How Cambridge University almost killed me
> 
> ...


because posh people at oxbridge don't have it easy


----------



## Sue (Oct 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> because posh people at oxbridge don't have it easy


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

my heart pumps purple piss


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> my heart pumps purple piss


I was looking for a title for my forthcoming pulp pastiche post-detective novel, cheers


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I was looking for a title for my forthcoming pulp pastiche post-detective novel, cheers


Cover suggestion: raised gold lettering, a rose, a gun, and a heart leaking purple wee wee.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Cover suggestion: raised gold lettering, a rose, a gun, and a heart leaking purple wee wee.


Like David Morrell never went away!


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Like David Morrell never went away!









"One oxbridge columnist's quest to backpeddle more frantically than hardly any oxbridge columnist had done before."


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2014)

I've enjoyed LP's case that it was a moral and ethical failing on the part of everyone else _not_ to have befriended a nazi.


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

We _must_ try to be better allies in future.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> "One oxbridge columnist's quest to backpeddle more frantically than hardly any oxbridge columnist had done before."



“An insane neonazi hacker threatens to destroy the intersectionalnet - and only two women stand in his way. But can ex-CIA hitwoman Laura Pennyred, who turned her back on the assassin's life to become the world's most successful academic in the history of media studies, and reformed art terrorist Malificent Croboppel, stop him in time?”


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> my heart pumps purple piss



Have you considered exhibiting yourself in a freakshow?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> We _must_ try to be better allies in future.




better axis's surely


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> better axis's surely


Axes


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> because posh people at oxbridge don't have it easy



(((posh people at oxbridge)))


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Have you considered exhibiting yourself in a freakshow?



This sort of thing you mean?


----------



## weepiper (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> This sort of thing you mean?


saucer of milk for table three


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

pub carpets ftw


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> This sort of thing you mean?



The Jacobin readers' group amateur dramatic society get together to pick this year's production:

“No, Malcolm, for the last time we are not going to do _Bugsy Malone_, we've already agreed we're putting on _Les Miserables_...”


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> pub carpets ftw



And own-brand bar snacks and Spesh are a little bit Communism.

Penny Dreadful, yesterday:


----------



## J Ed (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> We _must_ try to be better allies in future.


 
Surely worse Allies and a better Axis?

edit: beaten to it, ffs


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Private school/Oxbridge mental health issues are much better/worse than anyone elses as the people there are the best and the brightest and so worth more than an ugh...average type:
> 
> How Cambridge University almost killed me
> 
> ...



For the same reasons that so much of the story of this country's contribution to the fight against Franco focused on dreaming spires rather than bus garages. It's all about access and interest; neither of which seemed to have changed much in the nearly eight intervening decades.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Surely worse Allies and a better Axis?
> 
> edit: beaten to it, ffs




you have to get up early to win in the nazi pun game


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you have to get up early to win in the nazi pun game



And you score bonus points for making the trains run on time.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you have to get up early to win in the nazi pun game


Every Nazi pun game needs its Gleiwitz Incident


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I've enjoyed LP's case that it was a moral and ethical failing on the part of everyone else _not_ to have befriended a nazi.



Conversely, doesn't that make anyone who has avoided befriending a Nazi, especially avoided it by thumping said Nazi, an abject specimen of amorality?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The Jacobin readers' group amateur dramatic society get together to pick this year's production:
> 
> “No, Malcolm, for the last time we are not going to do _Bugsy Malone_, we've already agreed we're putting on _Les Miserables_...”



You just *know* that Malcolm fantasises about Tallulah.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> And own-brand bar snacks and Spesh are a little bit Communism.
> 
> Penny Dreadful, yesterday:



To be fair, even The Peoples' Poet's worst poems were better than LP's preposterously-awful "Saudade".


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Conversely, doesn't that make anyone who has avoided befriending a Nazi, especially avoided it by thumping said Nazi, an abject specimen of amorality?


Absolutely -  and that is her trimuph.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you have to get up early to win in the nazi pun game


yeh cos otherwise you'll miss the golden dawn


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, even The Peoples' Poet's worst poems were better than LP's preposterously-awful "Saudade".



So is William Shatner's back catalogue, to be honest.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Absolutely -  and that is her trimuph.



In which case I'm glad that I long ago accepted my status as an abject specimen of amorality. If being moral is being like her ilk, then morality needs to be erased from the pages of time*.

*With thanks to M. Ahmedinedjad.


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Absolutely -  and that is her trimuph.



Maybe that's where whatshisface got the inspiration for his tattoo from






He's not a nazi at all, just a film fan


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2014)

andysays said:


> Maybe that's where whatshisface got the inspiration for his tattoo from
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was going more for the Vanzetti type of vibe to be honest. I'm quite sure she deserves to placed alongside him in terms of relentless persecution.


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I was going more for the Vanzetti type of vibe to be honest. I'm quite sure she deserves to placed alongside him in terms of relentless persecution.



yeah, I'm sure that's more how he (and she) see themselves


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Why is it that when the narrative suits a story Laurie Penny not only identifies as Jewish but heavily implies that she is a practising Jew but when it comes to an actual blood and soil Jew-hating neo-Nazi she has to be dragged kicking and screaming into acknowledging his anti-Semitism all the while accusing those who point out this Nazism of being sexists?


I think she said her parents were atheists (cannot find the quote now) but on her blog she has claimed to be "an agnostic with buddhist leanings", so she's hedging her bets somewhat. Makes you think.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Makes you think.



Thinking's what got us into this mess


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think she said her parents were atheists (cannot find the quote now) but on her blog she has claimed to be "an agnostic with buddhist leanings", so she's hedging her bets somewhat. Makes you think.




Has anyone asked her views on Odin Allfather?


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think she said her parents were atheists (cannot find the quote now) but on her blog she has claimed to be "an agnostic with buddhist leanings", so she's hedging her bets somewhat. Makes you think.



For all her failings (and there are many) I think she's entitled to choose her own definition of her religious beliefs*, rather than be defined by those of her parents.

And has she really ever claimed (or even heavily implied) to be a practicing Jew? Not that I've seen.

ETA *however confusedly


----------



## rioted (Oct 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I was going more for the Vanzetti type of vibe to be honest. I'm quite sure she deserves to placed alongside him in terms of relentless persecution.


Is Workers Liberty the only source you could find for that? An anarchist's poem followed by an appeal to donate. To AWL? Whose leader has a poem denigrating the anarchists at Kronsdadt? Poor show.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2014)

It's not a poem.


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

> It turns out rank sexism is not the exclusive preserve of neonazis, neoliberals, libertarians and basement-dwelling fantasists


How come right, when LP and her mates live in basements and hovels, they're inevitably crazy boho _salons_; hives of edginess, with an ever changing cast of smoking, arting, poeting and SEX having libertines, but our basements, the normals' basements, are the smelly lonely failed-in-life tasteless mismatched furniture 1 working cooker ring kind. So shit. 

I've lived in many a basement. including this one in Rome, a converted fash era air raid shelter. There was a fountain in the marble floored lobby.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think she said her parents were atheists (cannot find the quote now) but on her blog she has claimed to be "an agnostic with buddhist leanings", so she's hedging her bets somewhat. Makes you think.


 
It sounds like she is playing posho hipster bingo to me


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It sounds like she is playing posho hipster bingo to me



Bullshit bingo, more like.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It sounds like she is playing posho hipster bingo to me


Two fat housekeepers, 88 acres of garden? Ride-on lawnmower, number 14?


----------



## Sue (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think she said her parents were atheists (cannot find the quote now) but on her blog she has claimed to be "an agnostic with buddhist leanings", so she's hedging her bets somewhat. Makes you think.



I'm still waiting for Catholicism to become trendy so I can go all hipster and tell everyone I was Hail Marying away before they'd even heard of it.


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

Sue said:


> I'm still waiting for Catholicism to become trendy so I can go all hipster and tell everyone I was Hail Marying away before they'd even heard of it.


Peig Sayers chic.


----------



## JimW (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> Peig Sayers chic.


Hush your poor mouth


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 6, 2014)

weepiper said:


> My dad understands more about coding than I do on account of having been writing computer programmes since before I was born. Patronising pish.


Ditto. Still does bits and pieces to keep amused.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 6, 2014)

copliker said:


> How come right, when LP and her mates live in basements and hovels, they're inevitably crazy boho _salons_; hives of edginess, with an ever changing cast of smoking, arting, poeting and SEX having libertines, but our basements, the normals' basements, are the smelly lonely failed-in-life tasteless mismatched furniture 1 working cooker ring kind. So shit.
> 
> I've lived in many a basement. including this one in Rome, a converted fash era air raid shelter. There was a fountain in the marble floored lobby.
> 
> View attachment 62089


We could do the PD 2015 calendar on Basements of the Proletariat


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 6, 2014)

Does it have to be solely basements?  Or are ground floor/upwards hovels acceptable?
E2a: i can dig out photos of the pigeon shit covered bathroom from my last bedsit in London if needed..


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> We could do the PD 2015 calendar on Basements of the Proletariat


Definitely need to do a calendar, what with the election and payback 2015 coming up.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> This sort of thing you mean?



it's enough to make you bite your own tongue right off.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 6, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Does it have to be solely basements?  Or are ground floor/upwards hovels acceptable?



'Hovels? But what have the commentariat ever done for _us_?'


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2014)

What about loft parties?


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Does it have to be solely basements?  Or are ground floor/upwards hovels acceptable?



Check your "living above ground level" privilege


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I was looking for a title for my forthcoming pulp pastiche post-detective novel, cheers


i was following a trail of postcards. at the end of it i knew i'd find the killer i'd been looking for for so long. ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> And you score bonus points for making the trains run on time.


simple: just alter the timetable to when they actually run


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i was following a trail of postcards. at the end of it i knew i'd find the killer i'd been looking for for so long. ...





http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/urban-postcard-exchange-summer-2014.324400/


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 6, 2014)

The New Statesman has really made me quite cross. While the article itself is broadly correct factually, my main bones of contention are it seems based around a phone interview with one woman at BP as well as a recent report 'supported by' BP but is, in fact, not fucking news as it waxes lyrical about a topic well known to people in engineering and education (how to get more women into engineering) for the past 20 or so years.

http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tec...iscouraging-women-choosing-engineering-career

It doesn't even mention that in order to encourage more women into engineering it's essential to start encouraging girls at primary school age that science and engineering are great career choices. The engineering profession is quite starved of entrants at this point anyway so just encouraging women into the profession won't address the future needs of the industry, engineers of all genders are needed.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 7, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> What about loft parties?



Stormy applause for your weev bating on twitter.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Does it have to be solely basements?



In the free market of ideas, every buyer needs a cellar.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The New Statesman has really made me quite cross. While the article itself is broadly correct factually, my main bones of contention are it seems based around a phone interview with one woman at BP as well as a recent report 'supported by' BP but is, in fact, not fucking news as it waxes lyrical about a topic well known to people in engineering and education (how to get more women into engineering) for the past 20 or so years.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tec...iscouraging-women-choosing-engineering-career
> 
> It doesn't even mention that in order to encourage more women into engineering it's essential to start encouraging girls at primary school age that science and engineering are great career choices. The engineering profession is quite starved of entrants at this point anyway so just encouraging women into the profession won't address the future needs of the industry, engineers of all genders are needed.



Have you seen this site?

http://www.engineergirl.org/


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you have to get up early to win in the nazi pun game


Last night I spent literally minutes trying to construct a volley based around Jim Bowen telling Ernst Röhm “You don't get anything for two in a bed”, but nothing quite worked. Soz.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Have you seen this site?
> 
> http://www.engineergirl.org/



Shame that I don't find Leena Gade listed there:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/apr/28/leena-gade-female-motorsport-engineer


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that apart from enabling academics around the world to share their ‘wanted’ lists of 60s SF show episodes on VHS and facilitating a robust, decentralised command-and-control system for absolute nuclear holocaust, this is exactly what the internet was invented for - a pointless online spat between a nonce-associated ex-Tory MP and a failed reality TV businessperson:




(etc)


----------



## Rural (Oct 7, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Probably worth mentioning that he _will_ see who has visited his profile (unless you have a paid-for OKC profile and are browsing invisibly), and given his creepy predilections, that might not be something everyone would want to risk.


Now u tell us


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 7, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'm pretty sure that apart from enabling academics around the world to share their ‘wanted’ lists of 60s SF show episodes on VHS and facilitating a robust, decentralised command-and-control system for absolute nuclear holocaust, this is exactly what the internet was invented for - a pointless online spat between a nonce-associated ex-Tory MP and a failed reality TV businessperson:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They deserve one another.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

Rural said:


> Now u tell us


Has he been A/S/Ling you?


----------



## Rural (Oct 8, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Has he been A/S/Ling you?


Idk what that means :/


Oh god sorry i am slow today!


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 8, 2014)

Going back to the Weev issue it's worth reading this blog post Trouble at the Koolaid Point: http://seriouspony.com/trouble-at-the-koolaid-point


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 8, 2014)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Going back to the Weev issue it's worth reading this blog post Trouble at the Koolaid Point: http://seriouspony.com/trouble-at-the-koolaid-point



Damn, you beat me to it. I don't think "evil" is too strong a word for the kind of things documented in that post.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 8, 2014)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Going back to the Weev issue it's worth reading this blog post Trouble at the Koolaid Point: http://seriouspony.com/trouble-at-the-koolaid-point


What a depressing picture that paints.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 8, 2014)

Going back to Butcher's original reaction to watching the Weev interview video: WTF?! You wouldn't even sit next to this guy on a bus. Why did they take him seriously? 

But it's true! Even just a casual investigation into his history would reveal that this guy is seriously dangerous and if you associate with him it's going to blow back and hit you in the face hard.

Maybe it's because in his court case he had the backing of respected organisations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation.


----------



## co-op (Oct 8, 2014)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Going back to the Weev issue it's worth reading this blog post Trouble at the Koolaid Point: http://seriouspony.com/trouble-at-the-koolaid-point



Fuck me, this should be read widely. Think I'm a bit of a naive about trolling, it still just means "fucking about on a BB" to me. What an evil little wanker.

_And Laurie Penny bought into this guy? _Fucking amazing.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 8, 2014)

co-op said:


> _And Laurie Penny bought into this guy? _.



Could anyone be that stupid and/or ignorant? Or should we seek some other explanation?


----------



## rekil (Oct 8, 2014)

I lolled at this take on LP, from someone who usually knows better.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 8, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Or that meisterwerk challenging the extradition of Gary McKinnon, _Keep The Aspie Disaster From Flying_.


has anyone done 'Down and Out in Paris Hilton' yet?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Could anyone be that stupid and/or ignorant? Or should we seek some other explanation?


It's trying to keep up the appearance of being well up on things you know sweet fanny adams about (and this generally means shiny new things - see various academic fields for excellent examples) and making yourself a target in the process in of trying to insert yourself into that newness and hot issue-ness.

On  a side note, i remember many of us being laughed at here and elsewhere for pointing out the libertarian (in the bad sense) and right wing nature of much of anon and related activity and motivations of participants - that it reflected the use of specialised power/knowledge without any sense of wider collective responsibility. Without anything _beyond the activity itself_ and the pleasure it brings to the actors involved. A profoundly anti-social, anti-working class position. Now it turns out half of them are state grasses and the other half neo-nazis.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's trying to keep up the appearance of being well up on things you know sweet fanny adams about (and this generally means shiny new things - see various academic fields for excellent examples) and making yourself a target in the process in of trying to insert yourself into that newness and hot issue-ness.
> 
> On  a side note, i remember many of us being laughed at here and elsewhere for pointing out the libertarian (in the bad sense) and right wing nature of much of anon and related activity and motivations of participants - that it reflected the use of specialised power/knowledge without any sense of wider collective responsibility. Without anything _beyond the activity itself_ and the pleasure it brings to the actors involved. A profoundly anti-social, anti-working class position. Now it turns out half of them are state grasses and the other half neo-nazis.



"The man who was thursday."


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

I'm struggling to get my head round this - this guy isn't just a bit of a nasty prick, he's the very worst of the exact kind of misogynist attack dog that targets the likes of Penny - _and is both reknowned for it and proud of it_. Oh yeah, plus all the white power stuff. All there with a few minutes googling. Insane.

Great, if nauseating, blog post btw.


----------



## newbie (Oct 8, 2014)

powerful stuff, and I wish I hadn't read it with this slightly nauseous feeling that this thread and its predecessor wouldn't look too great if cherrypicked for quotes in the light of what she's said.



> I now believe the most dangerous time for a woman with online visibility is the point at which others are seen to be listening, “following”, “liking”, “favoriting”, retweeting. In other words, the point at which her readers have (in the troll’s mind) “drunk the Koolaid”. Apparently, that just can’t be allowed.



there is some sort of fine line between justifiable criticism and what Kathy is discussing, and it ill behoves a discussion group as robust as this one, and as male dominated as this one, to get too sanctimonious.


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

ok. we'll leave the sanctimony to you.


----------



## Rural (Oct 8, 2014)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Going back to Butcher's original reaction to watching the Weev interview video: WTF?! You wouldn't even sit next to this guy on a bus. Why did they take him seriously?
> 
> But it's true! Even just a casual investigation into his history would reveal that this guy is seriously dangerous and if you associate with him it's going to blow back and hit you in the face hard.
> 
> Maybe it's because in his court case he had the backing of respected organisations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation.


He is taken seriously by lp & her ilk cos he is their class. He's seen as a maverick,  many comments about him being "funny", witty,  charismatic.  Politics r less impt than being a personality.  Not that he seems to have one that I'd find appealing, but I can completely see why he appeals to that lot.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Going back to Butcher's original reaction to watching the Weev interview video: WTF?! You wouldn't even sit next to this guy on a bus. Why did they take him seriously?
> 
> But it's true! Even just a casual investigation into his history would reveal that this guy is seriously dangerous and if you associate with him it's going to blow back and hit you in the face hard.
> 
> Maybe it's because in his court case he had the backing of respected organisations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation.



It's the liberal American faith in Free Speech.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant and all that.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's the liberal American faith in Free Speech.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant and all that.



And the silly complacent belief that once having been granted free speech, the far right will simply condemn themselves out of their own mouths, and nothing more need be done.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

Btw has anyone else been following the implosion of the NY "alt.lit" scene?  

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/10/doesnt-have-to-be-rape-to-suck.html


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Btw has anyone else been following the implosion of the NY "alt.lit" scene?
> 
> http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/10/doesnt-have-to-be-rape-to-suck.html



Yeah, saw that one on facebook. May hell mend them.


----------



## rekil (Oct 8, 2014)

There was a pic here of Mr.Weev throwing a nazi salute in a car upon his release. The person who posted it is now going 'wtf, nazi? no wai, had no idea'. Locked account now though.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 8, 2014)

Rural said:


> He is taken seriously by lp & her ilk cos he is their class. He's seen as a maverick,  many comments about him being "funny", witty,  charismatic.  Politics r less impt than being a personality.  Not that he seems to have one that I'd find appealing, but I can completely see why he appeals to that lot.



Style over substance, in other words. Shouting loud while saying little.

Explain's Penny Dreadful's whole career trajectory really.


----------



## rekil (Oct 8, 2014)

Ah, here it is.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Yeah, saw that one on facebook. May hell mend them.



I can't find a single redeeming feature in any of them.  The women all write a load of self-regarding twaddle, and the men all write a lot of self-regarding twaddle while clumsily trying to sleep with the women.  Then they all hate each other.  Then the women all bitch about the men on the internet.  The men offer groveling apologies, which are contemptuously rejected.  The police are called in.  Street-fighting erupts in Williamsburg.

Apart from the last bit, unfortunately.  But seriously, what kind of a literary scene is this?  I frankly despair of the youth.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2014)

some good points in the article about positive consent- even if the people do seem to be examples of the last days of rome, its a serious subject and the articles points on positive affirmation are worth thinking on


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's the liberal American faith in Free Speech.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant and all that.



I'm familiar with that saying, but I think in this case a couple of bottles of extra strength domestos would be more appropriate


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> Ah, here it is...



Given that he's already in a car, they'd struggle to make the claim he was just trying to hail a cab.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> Ah, here it is.
> 
> View attachment 62158


Worst
nazi
salute
ever


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

In fact, at risk of starting a competition:

worst
nazi
ever


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2014)

he'd ave some stiff competition there. Who was that cunt who invented the quenelle


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Worst
> nazi
> salute
> ever



TBF (  at self for using that expression here) he is limited by the close proximity of the roof of the car



DotCommunist said:


> he'd ave some stiff competition there. Who was that cunt who invented the quenelle



I reckon that could have been specifically invented for use in the back of a car. Shame it's now spread more widely, obvs...


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> some good points in the article about positive consent- even if the people do seem to be examples of the last days of rome, its a serious subject and the articles points on positive affirmation are worth thinking on



I don't know man, it all seems ridiculous to me.

Last time I looked, they'd collectively agreed on a _form--_an actual, fill-in-the-blanks form--that they're going to print out, carry round with them, and _get their partner to fill out every time they have sex.  _

Then some of them said: "Ah, but what if someone gives their consent at first, and then changes their mind?  Couldn't the form be used against them in court?"

Cue much consternation and a hubbub of earnest discussion.  I look forward to seeing what they'll come up with next.


----------



## rekil (Oct 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> TBF (  at self for using that expression here) he is limited by the close proximity of the roof of the car


"Disgracefully wayward thumb action darling. Tuck. It. In."


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> "Disgracefully wayward thumb action darling. Tuck. It. In."
> 
> View attachment 62161



Liked even though I have no idea who the fuck that is


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I don't know man, it all seems ridiculous to me.
> 
> Last time I looked, they'd collectively agreed on a _form--_an actual, fill-in-the-blanks form--that they're going to print out, carry round with them, and _get their partner to fill out every time they have sex.  _
> 
> ...




its incredible but a lot of people- scions of privilege usually- actually do think their hard on is someone elses problem also.

forms is getting a bit wtf but then, how did they get to that point?


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I don't know man, it all seems ridiculous to me.
> 
> Last time I looked, they'd collectively agreed on a _form--_an actual, fill-in-the-blanks form--that they're going to print out, carry round with them, and _get their partner to fill out every time they have sex.  _
> 
> ...


theyre kids aren't they? I remember an angry teen feminist I know advocating such a procedure, before she realised it was totally ridiculous...


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> how did they get to that point?



You don't want to know. Or maybe you do?  If so, just Google "Stephen Tully Dierks" and take it from there.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

killer b said:


> theyre kids aren't they?



Some of them are in their late 20s.  I suppose 29 is the new 9 or something.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I suppose 29 is the new 9 or something.



Ever taught undergrads in your long career as an international bohemian, phil?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2014)

killer b said:


> theyre kids aren't they? I remember an angry teen feminist I know advocating such a procedure, before she realised it was totally ridiculous...




you'd have to have a list of all permutations, positions and acts with tick boxes next to them. Not to mention what a passion killer.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 8, 2014)

i can't believe it's really so complicated not to rape someone.  is it really that difficult?


----------



## inva (Oct 8, 2014)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Going back to Butcher's original reaction to watching the Weev interview video: WTF?! You wouldn't even sit next to this guy on a bus. Why did they take him seriously?
> 
> But it's true! Even just a casual investigation into his history would reveal that this guy is seriously dangerous and if you associate with him it's going to blow back and hit you in the face hard.


Did they have much of a reason to think it _would_ hit them in the face hard though? As the Trouble at the Koolaid Point article makes clear, numerous people and numerous 'serious' publications/organisations have supported weev or overlooked & downplayed his actions many times over many years and got away with it, and have done the same with other edgy hacker types. I remember leftys/liberals in other places fawning over LulzSec as they released peoples credit card details, or Anonymous (even before their supposed progressive turn with the Scientology stuff), ignoring or waving away what came with the cat pictures ('controversial group', 'infamous trolls', asshole of the internet lololol).

in this instance it may have hit them, though probably not that hard but there's a reason they felt safe to be so blase about his politics and his behaviour and it definitely wasn't that they were ignorant of it.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i can't believe it's really so complicated not to rape someone.  is it really that difficult?


You'd hope not,  but


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i can't believe it's really so complicated not to rape someone.  is it really that difficult?


apparently people need forms now.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

inva said:


> Did they have much of a reason to think it _would_ hit them in the face hard though? As the Trouble at the Koolaid Point article makes clear, numerous people and numerous 'serious' publications/organisations have supported weev or overlooked & downplayed his actions many times over many years and got away with it, and have done the same with other edgy hacker types. I remember leftys/liberals in other places fawning over LulzSec as they released peoples credit card details, or Anonymous (even before their supposed progressive turn with the Scientology stuff), ignoring or waving away what came with the cat pictures ('controversial group', 'infamous trolls', asshole of the internet lololol).
> 
> in this instance it may have hit them, though probably not that hard but there's a reason they felt safe to be so blase about his politics and his behaviour and it definitely wasn't that they were ignorant of it.


Who are the _they _involved here though? That article mentions tech - now, i don't who or what tech is. I do know that it looked _hot _for a while for LP and others to jump on. That's my entire interest here. Nailing them. beyond that i know nothing. I don't know about this world of not actually doing anything at all.


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i can't believe it's really so complicated not to rape someone.  is it really that difficult?


It isn't, of course. TBH the whole idea comes from a fairly dodgy mindset.

I guess these things are dreamed up by people who don't have a great deal of experience of sex tbh. The total unworkability (and undesirability) of them in practice is perhaps not so obvious as a result.


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

id venture a guess that most guys involved in that scene have at least one fedora.


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> apparently people need forms now.



If forms are the answer, you're asking the wrong question, or at least phrasing/understanding it wrong


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I look forward to seeing what they'll come up with next.



An app.


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

killer b said:


> id venture a guess that most guys involved in that scene have at least one fedora.



When VP reads that you are in sooo much trouble


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> An app.



I believe I read somewhere (???) recently that such a thing already exists


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

killer b said:


> id venture a guess that most guys involved in that scene have at least one fedora.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 8, 2014)

phildwyer said:


>



For all we know that chap's just poking his head through a dark matter portal into another dimension.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2014)

he's doing the westide gang symbol wrong


----------



## inva (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Who are the _they _involved here though? That article mentions tech - now, i don't who or what tech is. I do know that it looked _hot _for a while for LP and others to jump on. That's my entire interest here. Nailing them. beyond that i know nothing. I don't know about this world of not actually doing anything at all.


I'm mainly going by that Koolaid article to be honest - I can't say I know anything about tech either. I'm the right age to have picked up a bit about weev and that crowd and I dimly remember some far too friendly coverage from years ago, but that's about the limit of it really.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's trying to keep up the appearance of being well up on things you know sweet fanny adams about (and this generally means shiny new things - see various academic fields for excellent examples) and making yourself a target in the process in of trying to insert yourself into that newness and hot issue-ness.
> .


It's a bit like the Scott Walker Sunn O))) collaboration.


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's a bit like the Scott Walker Sunn O))) collaboration.


it isn't very good is it?


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

although I think the not-good-ness is more the fault of sunn than scott.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 8, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Have you seen this site?
> 
> http://www.engineergirl.org/


Bit recently, it's looking really good. Nice one, thanks


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 8, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Shame that I don't find Leena Gade listed there:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/apr/28/leena-gade-female-motorsport-engineer


There's only 228 women worldwide on it. WORLD-FUCKING-WIDE!!!!!! That's ridiculous.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 8, 2014)

this chap sums it up quite well, though is a bit verbose about it.

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.co...nt-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

his basic points are that:

1. having sex with someone very rarely involves a direct question and a direct answer.  almost of us are socialised to know when we're being asked and when we're not, using our experience of language, body language, and human interactions.  sometimes we're a bit clumsy and unsure about it, but basically _we know_.

2. the idea of "getting permission" ignores point a. - ignores human social conventions.

3. that the idea of miscommunication is a rapist's excuse.  they are aware of point number one, but also of point two.  because they are human beings, not some weird monster that doesn't understand stuff.  they use the fact that there was no direct refusal to indicate consent, but know that actually there was none.  _they didn't care_.  

and i think i agree with that.


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> 3. that the idea of miscommunication is a rapist's excuse.  they are aware of point number one, but also of point two.  because they are human beings, not some weird monster that doesn't understand stuff.  they use the fact that there was no direct refusal to indicate consent, but know that actually there was none.  _they didn't care_.


yeah, this is why the whole idea is on dodgy ground imo. it suggests a grey area where there isn't really one.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2014)

killer b said:


> I guess these things are dreamed up by people who don't have a great deal of experience of sex tbh.



Several of the women involved mention that they were virgins, or near-virgins, at the time of the incidents they describe.

Of course I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that a lot of it reflects the understandable horror experienced by many young women when the penny finally drops and they realize what young men are actually like.

I suppose that happens to some extent in every generation.  But this generation puts it on the internet.


----------



## rekil (Oct 8, 2014)

Reminder that Laurie bagged that Harvard jolly on the basis that she claimed to be clued up on 'digital culture'.



> Laurie Penny (UK), contributing editor of the New Statesman, editor-at-large of The New Inquiry, and a contributor to The Guardian, Vice, The Nation and many other publications, will study the economic history and theory of social movements, with an emphasis on digital culture and linguistics.



Meanwhile Crabapple is worried that a US state dept account might damage her brand. (She could be just pretending)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

They're finally doing what she wanted and arming the FSA though? Arm in arm, shoulder to shoulder.


----------



## rekil (Oct 8, 2014)

As tennis commentator Chris Bradnam would say: "Too Good"


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

Lovely.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

killer b said:


> it isn't very good is it?


Not heard it. not ever going to hear it. Walker can fuck off and all now. All his oh so astonishing pieces sound like laurie pennies idea of scary music - i.e the death of modernism in the 20s. Oh god, it's fractured, non-linear, there's a noisy bit coming, _oh no an an odd bit._ Tilt it up your arse mate. And then put some crap electronic drums on it. Tax dodging fuckface. Still at least he don't hang around with...ah...hang on...


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2014)




----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not heard it. not ever going to hear it. Walker can fuck off and all now. All his oh so astonishing pieces sound like laurie pennies idea of scary music - i.e the death of modernism in the 20s. Oh god, it's fractured, non-linear, there's a noisy bit coming, _oh no an an odd bit._ Tilt it up your arse mate. And then put some crap electronic drums on it. Tax dodging fuckface. Still at least he don't hang around with...ah...hang on...


as it happens, I recommended a friend listen to his last album this afternoon, he's just this minute messaged me



> Tried the first couple of Bish tracks, but I felt like I was listening to Points Of View letters being read by a suicidal depressive.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not heard it. not ever going to hear it. Walker can fuck off and all now. All his oh so astonishing pieces sound like laurie pennies idea of scary music - i.e the death of modernism in the 20s. Oh god, it's fractured, non-linear, there's a noisy bit coming, _oh no an an odd bit._ Tilt it up your arse mate. And then put some crap electronic drums on it. Tax dodging fuckface. Still at least he don't hang around with...ah...hang on...


I'll mark you down as an ‘undecided’.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2014)

I was honestly listening to the walker box zet this morning. But now...pah. Goodbye to all that great stuff. I'll miss you.


----------



## Rural (Oct 8, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Style over substance, in other words. Swing loud while saying little.
> 
> Explain's Penny Dreadful's whole career trajectory really.


Being cut from the same cloth as LP & ilk (Pilk?) is indication of who they will stand with. When the chips are down, that is who they will b offering their solidarity to.


----------



## Rural (Oct 8, 2014)

phil post: 13450946 said:
			
		

> I don't know man, it all seems ridiculous to me.
> 
> Last time I looked, they'd collectively agreed on a _form--_an actual, fill-in-the-blanks form--that they're going to print out, carry round with them, and _get their partner to fill out every time they have sex.  _
> 
> ...


A form to fill in???? Surely it is possible to find other ways of communicating enthusiastic consent without feeling like ur applying for housing benefit. Idgi. These ppl r bonkers. And I'm saying that as someone who has been sectioned 6 times


----------



## Rural (Oct 8, 2014)

andysays said:


> Liked even though I have no idea who the fuck that is


I read that as "licked"


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Both sound like good descriptions of these clowns MO though.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you'd have to have a list of all permutations, positions and acts with tick boxes next to them. Not to mention what a passion killer.


The minute u put ur signature to it, it would b out of date. Surely they realise ppl can change their minds


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Hence Multitudinous Positionism. The only ways to goes.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

UOTE="butchersapron, post: 13452123, member: 366"]Hence Multitudinous Positionism. The only ways to goes.[/QUOTE]
Im a bit nervous to click on that, but OK. I may be some time...


----------



## Greebo (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> A form to fill in???? Surely it is possible to find other ways of communicating enthusiastic consent without feeling like ur applying for housing benefit. Idgi. These ppl r bonkers. And I'm saying that as someone who has been sectioned 6 times


There is - agreeing that "yes" means "yes" but will always be trumped by "no" by either party at any point - end of story.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

MOTE="Greebo, post: 13452129, member: 2834"]There is - agreeing that "yes" means "yes" but will always be trumped by "no" by either party at any point - end of story.[/QUOTE]
Nah, too clearcut & sensible for them. They need to strangle all possible enjoyment out if it with red tape & complicated forms


----------



## Greebo (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> <snip> They need to strangle all possible enjoyment out if it with red tape & complicated forms


I suppose retaining a modicum of social awareness would be far too much like hard work.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

[QUOTE="Greebo, post: 13452154, member: 283suppose retaining a modicum of social awareness would be far too much like hard work.[/QUOTE]
Also they r assuming everyone can read and write. And I expect the forms r in english. Or is it gonna b like when u get arrested & ur offered a leaflet in various languages and an interpreter?


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> Nah, too clearcut & sensible for them. They need to strangle all possible enjoyment out if it with red tape & complicated forms


I think it's just confused, insecure people trying to find their way and getting it very wrong. When my mates came out with stuff like this when we were younger they were just laughed at by our peer group. These people for some reason have an international stage to make fools of themselves on.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Hence Multitudinous Positionism. The only ways to goes.


I actually thought this was a link to a *karma sutra* type article X_x


----------



## J Ed (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> A form to fill in???? Surely it is possible to find other ways of communicating enthusiastic consent without feeling like ur applying for housing benefit. Idgi. These ppl r bonkers. And I'm saying that as someone who has been sectioned 6 times



Maybe they get really excited about bureaucracy and it's their way of getting other people involved in their fetish?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

killer b said:


> id venture a guess that most guys involved in that scene have at least one fedora.




https://twitter.com/search?q=#fedoraguy


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)




----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 9, 2014)

What's this fedora malarkey? 

Suppose I should Google it.


----------



## krink (Oct 9, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> What's this fedora malarkey?
> 
> Suppose I should Google it.



i think it's an internet thing about people wearing fedoras being mens-rightists, anarchocapitalists or generally unpleasant people.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

Sometimes #fedoraman is simply a man wearing a fedora.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2014)

also it implies sex pestery?


----------



## krink (Oct 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> also it implies sex pestery?



yes, according to tumblr where all the cool kids are.


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

internet meme for a particular kind of passive aggressive loser, with hints of sex pestery.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

krink said:


> yes, according to tumblr where all the cool kids are.


To further confuse matters, I intuit a considerable (if you will permit me) _intersection_ between ironic vintage-style millinery and tumblelogging.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 9, 2014)

So it's a subcultural thing but certain dodgy behaviours which have come to be associated with that sort are found much wider.


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 9, 2014)

20 Reasons You Shouldn’t Date Men Who Wear Fedoras - Buzzfeed

Think this was more of a 'thing' a year or two ago.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/20-reasons-you-shouldnt-date-men-who-wear-fedoras#6umlpu


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

yeah, its seems to be all neckbeard hate now, but personally I think the fedora still has relevance.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

killer b said:


> yeah, its seems to be all neckbeard hate now, but personally I think the fedora still has relevance.


Not least because of actual, real life #fedoramen descending on municipalities across Missouri to hatsplain to local Black youth how best they should protest against fatal shootings by police officers.


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not least because of actual, real life #fedoramen descending on municipalities across Missouri to hatsplain to local Black youth how best they should protest against fatal shootings by police officers.


 I must say I found the # a little confusing - has anyone written a comical precis of his activities you could link us up with?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2014)

killer b said:


> I must say I found the # a little confusing - has anyone written a comical precis of his activities you could link us up with?



I imagine someone at Vice is writing that at this exact moment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> He is taken seriously by lp & her ilk cos he is their class. He's seen as a maverick,  many comments about him being "funny", witty,  charismatic.  Politics r less impt than being a personality.  Not that he seems to have one that I'd find appealing, but I can completely see why he appeals to that lot.



Because, like them, he's just another controversialist making coin from being a controversialist.
Did a bit of research with regard to the type of prison mr weev did time in. Prisons that give the sort of concessions he experienced are the equivalent of a British "open" prison: A "county jail" or state "honor farm" - the least scary option used for offenders with offences considered too piddling to require a state or federal penitentiary. The big tough white supremacist would have been filleted and eaten raw in any other part of the system.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> And the silly complacent belief that once having been granted free speech, the far right will simply condemn themselves out of their own mouths, and nothing more need be done.



Because, of course, they're all too stupid to couch their message in quasi-academic terminology, and (ab)use knowledge in order to make their message appear more acceptable to a wider range of people. 
Truly, the world is full of people who deserve to be members of Unite Against Fascism.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 9, 2014)

krink said:


> i think it's an internet thing about people wearing fedoras being mens-rightists, anarchocapitalists or generally unpleasant people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

killer b said:


> id venture a guess that most guys involved in that scene have at least one fedora.



They're much too "happening" to wear fedoras.
They're blatantly cap-wearers. All of them probably have a selection of paperboys, berets and flats, even the women. They're probably all vintage clothes enthusiasts, too. It's so "now"!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

andysays said:


> When VP reads that you are in sooo much trouble



It's okay. killer b can't help the fedora-hate. It's because his teeny-tiny head and etiolated frame making anything with a brim wider than a gnat's chuff look ridiculous!


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

I think you're a man of sufficient age and gravitas to get away with wearing a fed without people mistaking you for some kind of hateful sex pest VP.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's okay. killer b can't help the fedora-hate. It's because his teeny-tiny head and etiolated frame making anything with a brim wider than a gnat's chuff look ridiculous!


Check your hatband size privilege


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's okay. killer b can't help the fedora-hate. It's because his teeny-tiny head and etiolated frame making anything with a brim wider than a gnat's chuff look ridiculous!



You're not suggesting that a bright fedora would leave our fellow poster resembling a Belisha beacon, are you?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> killer b can't help the fedora-hate. It's because his teeny-tiny head...



Have you ever seen killer b?! His noggin is Liam Dutton-proportioned!


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2014)

if MRA sex pests start wearing beanies then its war


----------



## andysays (Oct 9, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Check your hatband size privilege



Get in!!!


----------



## krink (Oct 9, 2014)

So VP are you more of a Melly?


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 9, 2014)

andysays said:


> Get in!


Too much opression of the smaller skulled on this thread to stay silent


----------



## andysays (Oct 9, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Too much opression of the smaller skulled on this thread to stay silent





> First they came for the small skulled, but I didn't speak out because I wasn't small skulled.



We all know how that ended...


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 9, 2014)

krink said:


> So VP are you more of a Melly?


"Like a man who survived an explosion in a toothpaste factory".


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 9, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> 20 Reasons You Shouldn’t Date Men Who Wear Fedoras - Buzzfeed
> 
> Think this was more of a 'thing' a year or two ago.



Huzzah!


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

E="killer b, post: 13452823, member: 2066"]yeah, its seems to be all neckbeard hate now, but personally I think the fedora still has relevance.[/QUOTE]
Whats a neck beard? Is it a chinstrap with no moustache?


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

this year's fedora.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> Whats a neck beard? Is it a chinstrap with no moustache?



Just click the button named reply. Don't fuck about trying to quote.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

OTE="andysays, post: 13453042, member: 58653"]We all know how that ended...[/QUOTE]
Ive got a small head, always think of me as being *pea-headed*, but I've also got quite a large face. Idk who thought that would b a good idea :/


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

QUOTE="butchersapron, post: 13453611, member: 366"]Just click the button named reply. Don't fuck about trying to quote.[/QUOTE]
Im not! I've never quoted, my reps have gone all daft again. I AM trying


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

very trying.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

killer b said:


> very trying.


I hoped no1 would notice, i think i best stay quiet til i sort this out


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Then click the button with lines and a sort of 1 at the bottom , then click insert quote - put what you want to quote in the quotes. The one three to the right of the tongue thing.



> And killer, stop flirting.


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2014)

I can't help myself. I'm a raging ball of hormones atm.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Then click the button with lines and a sort of 1 at the bottom , then click insert quote - put what you want to quote in the quotes. The one three to the right of the tongue thing.


Thank u, i will try to sort it, can imagine its annoying. I am sorry


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Rural said:


> Thank u, i will try to sort it, can imagine its annoying. I am sorry


It's not _that _annoying.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's not _that _annoying.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's okay. killer b can't help the fedora-hate. It's because his teeny-tiny head and etiolated frame making anything with a brim wider than a gnat's chuff look ridiculous!



I always imagine you wearing a hat like this bloke


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2014)

trawlermans hat surely. I think Uncle Albert was in the Merchant Navy


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 9, 2014)

killer b said:


> I think you're a man of sufficient age and gravitas to get away with wearing a fed without people mistaking you for some kind of hateful sex pest VP.


hang on are people saying fed means sex pest? Fedayn


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> trawlermans hat surely. I think Uncle Albert was in the Merchant Navy



Never the less that's how I always imagine VP


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I always imagine you wearing a hat like this bloke



The only hats I wear are fedoras, except for a couple of years of beret-wearing. 

TBF though, when it's untrimmed the beard is pretty spot-on!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

krink said:


> So VP are you more of a Melly?



George was, is, and ever shall be be far more stylish than me. I'd never dare wear a blue fedora (or that suit!). Plain black, brown or straw for me (although I may buy a grey one for my G-dson's wedding).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Huzzah!



The steampunker is wearing a Trilby.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2014)

doppelpost


----------



## co-op (Oct 9, 2014)

> he is taken seriously by lp & her ilk cos he is their class.



News reports about Weev claim he's from a poor background.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

co-op said:


> News reports about Weev claim he's from a poor background.


Maybe it's more than money then. He exudes entitlement, he expects to b listened to & taken seriously. Idk his background but he seems more middle class/privileged than, for eg, the stereotype of racist edl supporter.  Who no doubt would b mocked by lp & ilk for things like grammar,  spelling,  unsophisticated politics, etc. Not sure I'm explaining this well


----------



## rekil (Oct 9, 2014)

co-op said:


> News reports about Weev claim he's from a poor background.


Where? I can't find what school he went to or info on parents etc but this 2009 doc says he went to James Madison University in Virginia.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 9, 2014)

don't think it's steampunk, he's playing an arcade game, trench coat and trilby is not steampunk


----------



## co-op (Oct 9, 2014)

copliker said:


> Where? I can't find what school he went to or info on parents etc but this 2009 doc says he went to James Madison University in Virginia.



I just googled before I posted because I saw a quote by him saying something like 'jail was ok for me because of where I'm from, Aaron Swartz killed himself because he was posh and he couldn't handle it', but of course I can't find it now. Also another journalist quote that he was 'raised poor' - whatever that means in journalese these days.


----------



## co-op (Oct 9, 2014)

"I am a poor country boy from Arkansas. I was born into nothing,"

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/b...s-most-notorious-troll-go-to-jail-for-hacking


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

co-op said:


> I just googled before I posted because I saw a quote by him saying something like 'jail was ok for me because of where I'm from, Aaron Swartz killed himself because he was posh and he couldn't handle it', but of course I can't find it now. Also another journalist quote that he was 'raised poor' - whatever that means in journalese these days.


Raised poor might just mean daddy only earned $200k a year and they only holidayed alternate years in the Hamptons.

ETA cross-posted.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

co-op said:


> "I am a poor country boy from Arkansas. I was born into nothing,"
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/b...s-most-notorious-troll-go-to-jail-for-hacking


I def believe everything he says. Check his record.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Posh people from Cheshire still get away with pretending to be w/c in london ffs.  Poor boy my anus.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

co-op said:


> News reports about Weev claim he's from a poor background.


Thunderbolts and lightning very very frightening me?


----------



## rekil (Oct 9, 2014)

Posh or petty-booj people would never stoop to making stuff up about their background tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

co-op said:


> "I am a poor country boy from Arkansas. I was born into nothing,"
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/b...s-most-notorious-troll-go-to-jail-for-hacking


Next para:



> While Auernheimer’s behavior in the past has made internet freedom activists reluctant to come to his defense, the chorus of support is growing. Even Immunity Sec founder and former NSA security researcher Dave Aitel, who has accused Weev of once posting “rape porn” fiction about Aitel’s wife to Aitel’s own site, has grudgingly pointed out that the verdict could be dangerous for the security industry.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

copliker said:


> Posh or petty-booj people would never stoop to making stuff up about their background tbf.


No one who was a poor country boy would say they were a poor country boy. Only people who want to mug people and laugh up their sleeve when it's printed  say that.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Thunderbolts and lightning very very frightening me?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

Anyway, where's newbie to tell us everyone else here is as bad as him. The daft cunt.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anyway, where's newnie to tellujs at heart eve


Is that 5 across, (7,2,3,6)?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2014)

wether he's a strasser or a speer he's still a total cunt


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is that 5 across, (7,2,3,6)?


One across, just 3 - begins with c ends with t.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> One across, just 3 - begins with c ends with t.


cat?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> cat?


Yep. Attention time.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yep. Attention time.


I don't understand what you mean...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

My cat wanted attention and trampled all over my laptop.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> May cat wanted attention and trampled all over my laptop.


Ah, now I understand. That was a little bit too lateral for my brain


----------



## weepiper (Oct 9, 2014)

krink said:


> i think it's an internet thing about people wearing fedoras being mens-rightists, anarchocapitalists or generally unpleasant people.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 9, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> hang on are people saying fed means sex pest? Fedayn


----------



## co-op (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Posh people from Cheshire still get away with pretending to be w/c in london ffs.  Poor boy my anus.





Tick. I've met plenty of posh northerners camping up their accents in London. 

I wasn't saying I'm buying his story, just that that is the story. I can't find any details.


----------



## Rural (Oct 9, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Thunderbolts and lightning very very frightening me?


Lol I was just thinking "I'm just a poor boy,  from a poor family..."


----------



## newbie (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anyway, where's newbie to tell us everyone else here is as bad as him. The daft cunt.


there's no comparison between anyone here and the attention seeker from Arkansas


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

newbie said:


> there's no comparison between anyone here and the attention seeker from Arkansas


So why make it then? In a _i'm looking at you and you_ down your old lady glasses way?


----------



## newbie (Oct 9, 2014)

because I'd just read Kathy Sierra's blog post and came back to this thread to find yet more attacks on a 'a woman with online visibility'.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

But you just said that you didn't do that? Did you do that? Finger pointing - smearing - nasty same bag of tricks as what you're so piously condemning. Name names - name posts.


----------



## newbie (Oct 9, 2014)

what?  I'm sure you're right, whatever it is you just said.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2014)

You pious cunt.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 9, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> hang on are people saying fed means sex pest? Fedayn



Eh?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> Eh?


Spanky was trying to make a pun. It did not go well (and sex pests are not funny anyway).


----------



## fogbat (Oct 9, 2014)

It's an obvious mistake, but Fedayn is actually a common garden pest. Try spraying with an organic insecticide, combined with companion planting schemes, and you should avoid the worst.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Posh people from Cheshire still get away with pretending to be w/c in london ffs.  Poor boy my anus.



Indeed


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2014)

newbie said:


> because I'd just read Kathy Sierra's blog post and came back to this thread to find yet more attacks on a 'a woman with online visibility'.



Kathy sierras blog was actually signposted on this thread


----------



## J Ed (Oct 9, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Kathy sierras blog was actually signposted on this thread



No doubt the concern displayed for the female victims of weev's misogyny (ignored by newbie's heroine LP) was a foul trick played by the 'MRA Left' to throw critics off the scent


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2014)

heroine


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

newbie said:


> heroine


Gateway columnist. It'll be toynbee with tea and toast before you're out the door.

Then radio 4. In the car.

_I'm being informed and neutral-  i am seeing through the lies as i drive _

Driving Radio 4 cunts are pretty much why we are here.


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2014)

for sure r4 in the background, no columnists, tea or toast though


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _“Not now, Bernard.”_


An exasperated Sean Connery says this very line in The Terrorists. Lovejoy hijacked a plane.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> An exasperated Sean Connery says this very line in The Terrorists. Lovejoy hijacked a plane.


That's a great film 

And an early appearance from _The Bill_'s Burnside!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> An exasperated Sean Connery says this very line in The Terrorists. Lovejoy hijacked a plane.


He also robbed a bank to fund his fascist assault on the degeneracy of Europe.


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He also robbed a bank to fund his fascist assault on the degeneracy of Europe.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> An exasperated Sean Connery says this very line in The Terrorists. Lovejoy hijacked a plane.


Lovejoy and Burnside - the ultimate team-up!

 

Cutting edge technology!

 

Couldn't even be bothered to come up with a convincing fake country name!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He also robbed a bank to fund his fascist assault on the degeneracy of Europe.



The armed wing of Mercedes-Benz


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

Was true as well. An anarchist bank robbing oliver reed in dirty weekend not so true.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Was true as well. An anarchist bank robbing oliver reed in dirty weekend not so true.


What sort of swine robs an anarchist bank


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> What sort of swine robs an anarchist bank


No rulez man._ No rulez._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He also robbed a bank to fund his fascist assault on the degeneracy of Europe.


Kevin McCloud would have loved this guy, the crypto-fascist


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

Rural said:


> I actually thought this was a link to a *karma sutra* type article X_x


I know what you mean. Every time i hear the words _explore our bodies_ (not that common to be fair) i imagine some hippie sticking his fingers up someones arse.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Kevin McCloud would have loved this guy, the crypto-fascist
> 
> View attachment 62234


I tell you what when we get some money  together there is loads to be made in translating and publishing the stories of the french-italian-spanish robbers of the 70s and 80s. Just make sure we do them over for copyright.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Every time i hear the words _explore our bodies_ (not that common to be fair) i imagine some hippie sticking his fingers up someones arse.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)




----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>


No lunch for me now. ta.


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I tell you what when we get some money  together there is loads to be made in translating and publishing the stories of the french-italian-spanish robbers of the 70s and 80s. Just make sure we do them over for copyright.


Hit up Glenn Greenwald. He was boasting last month that that he donates money to 'radicals' (Weev lol?). But either he deleted it or I can't find it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Hit up Glenn Greenwald. He was boasting last month that that he donates money to 'radicals' (Weev lol?). But either he deleted it or I can't find it.



Can you imagine how many soi-disant opsec activists and Occupy Tea Tent type nutters would have been jumping on that faster than blue tits on a fat ball?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

I heard some ruffians set up a fake glenn 'invade iraq' greenwald i will give you money account just so he could give it some largesse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No one who was a poor country boy would say they were a poor country boy. Only people who want to mug people and laugh up their sleeve when it's printed  say that.



Unless they're writing a C & W lyric.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unless they're writing a C & W lyric.


or in queen - "i'm just a poor boy / nobody loves me" from 'bohemian rhapsody' comes close.


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


>




Most racist essay competition?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

It's trying hard. Good old Oxford.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Most racist essay competition?
> 
> View attachment 62239


You don't understand: Oxford University the _racist institution of privilege_ is nothing to do with the Oxford University made up of all those _smartest boys and girls from very smart schools_. Entirely different things.


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Most racist essay competition?
> 
> View attachment 62239



(((Oxford)))

I'm referring to the city, where I believe some relatively ordinary and even non-racist people still live, as opposed to the bastion of class and other privilege which is the university (and which LP chooses still to actively benefit from, as distinct to simply benefiting from as an Oxford graduate) obviously...

Edited to clarify (potentially) confusing use of brackets


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

Far far too many varieties and use of brackets in that post.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 10, 2014)

No use of {}  though,  so not the fullbracketdiversityrainbow. 
First they came for the brackets....


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2014)

If this is true, it's weird, if it's not, well why make something like that up.


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> No use of {}  though,  so not the fullbracketdiversityrainbow.
> First they came for the brackets....


Not seeing any "< >" #bracketqueer representation either.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Far far too many varieties and use of brackets in that post.


why do you hate vibrancy?  bracketist.


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Far far too many varieties and use of brackets in that post.



Yeah, sorry about that. I hope it's better now.

In mitigation, I will simply say that I haven't had the benefit of a proper Oxford education and then post-graduate studies in journalism at Harvard like what some people have


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> No use of {}  though,  so not the fullbracketdiversityrainbow.
> First they came for the brackets....



I chose [] rather than {} or <> because they can be rendered without use of the shift key, so are particularly well suited to my one fingered typing style.

What's your point caller?


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 10, 2014)

Wait,  what? I need to have a point?  
Discrimination.  Period.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Pointism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

andysays said:


> What's your point caller?





tufty79 said:


> Wait,  what? I need to have a point?
> Discrimination.  Period.



No points, no periods, just FULL STOPS


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 10, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Pointism.


Disappointism


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Wait,  what? I need to have a point?
> Discrimination.  Period.



I can see that I've inadvertently strayed into the vexed area of orthographic correctness 

Maybe this subject needs a whole thread to itself where we can discuss what is and isn't acceptable in this context, and who are the orthographically privileged who need to learn to be good allies and step up, or back whatever it is, instead of engaging in punctuation-plaining.

Can I leave you to start it though?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

called himself an anarchist too, the molly crab of is day


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Pointism.



Art that everybody raves about etc thread ------------------------------------>


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 10, 2014)

andysays -  you've hit the punctuation kool aid tipping point, my friend


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

Is that two pointilism jokes in a row?

This must be a record, shirley


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

Before we leave this subject, I'd also like to make a pathetic joke about it being the first time I've seen a thread turning into an example of a punch up *about* the bracket, rather than just someone being offered a punch up the bracket.

<Gets coat and guide to orthographic correctness>


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

andysays said:


> Before we leave this subject, I'd also like to make a parenthetic joke...



CFY


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)




----------



## equationgirl (Oct 10, 2014)

andysays said:


> (((Oxford)))
> 
> I'm referring to the city, where I believe some relatively ordinary and even non-racist people still live, as opposed to the bastion of class and other privilege which is the university (and which LP chooses still to actively benefit from, as distinct to simply benefiting from as an Oxford graduate) obviously...
> 
> Edited to clarify (potentially) confusing use of brackets


Oxford is more town than gown, in my experience. But the university has a huge influence and brand.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 10, 2014)

If our Laurie is marking those essays then at least we know that Oxford is moving in the right direction, employing a white, upper-middle-class privately educated Oxford graduate currently studying at Harvard with an "ethical personal brand" is the first step towards eliminating all traces of colonialism, privilege and racism at your institution.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> If our Laurie is marking those essays then at least we know that Oxford is moving in the right direction, employing a white, upper-middle-class privately educated Oxford graduate currently studying at Harvard with an "ethical personal brand" is the first step towards eliminating all traces of colonialism, privilege and racism at your institution.


What is a personal brand though, seriously?


----------



## Rural (Oct 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What is a personal brand though, seriously?


I guess it's using ur perceived individualism as a usp so u can make money by *being urself*


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What is a personal brand though, seriously?


in laurie's case it's the exploitation of serious issues - about which you haven't had the decency conduct anything even on nodding terms with genuine research - in the pursuit of shameless self promotion


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2014)

Hasn't said a word about the Kurds though


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2014)

no NATO bombs to cheer yet I suppose


----------



## Greebo (Oct 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What is a personal brand though, seriously?


A bit of a poisoned chalice - ask anyone who's got their real name splattered across the internet and also uses it for work.

Edited to add:  eg Yvonne Aburrow


----------



## Rural (Oct 12, 2014)

copliker said:


> If this is true, it's weird, if it's not, well why make something like that up.
> 
> View attachment 62240


Monetarise ur riot


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 12, 2014)

Rural said:


> I guess it's using ur perceived individualism as a usp so u can make money by *being urself*



The rebel sell. Being 'edgy' enough to turn a buck without being so 'edgy' that you deter potential custom.

Which is about as genuine as an MP's expenses claim, frankly.


----------



## krink (Oct 12, 2014)

has crabby not  done a painting to end the siege on Kobane yet? her one about Ferguson worked so well...


----------



## rekil (Oct 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What is a personal brand though, seriously?


Short answer is that it's the image an entrepreneur tries to project in order to distinguish themselves from the competition and goad consumers into forming an emotional attachment with their shit. 

Here's a thing: Kathy Sierra wrote to Crabapple about Mr.Weev last May.

http://olaasm.wordpress.com/2014/10...te-weevgate-abusers-their-knowing-apologists/



> In summary, he destroyed my life, for lulz, and you, personally, are propagating his mythology.


----------



## Rural (Oct 12, 2014)

@unquietpirate @soletvebe @flyingteacosy @joshsamuels I find this exchange really upsetting. I feel judged for expressing pride.

LP on twitter (sorry idk how to link so the tweet appears here, I mean come on u all must know I can barely manage to reply coherently!) Just wanted to point out how the usual silencing technique *I'm upset, stop upsetting me* is still being used every time she's called out. This time for upsetting bisexuals. Also lol about feeling judged on twitter. What does she think ppl do to tweets they read?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2014)

I can't do it either - anything about kurdish transgingers?


----------



## Rural (Oct 12, 2014)

http://laurie-penny.com/on-weev-fascism-and-the-free-internet/

This was actually what I was looking for on her twitter when I became distracted by her being upset when called out. Again.


----------



## Rural (Oct 12, 2014)

butcshersapron said:


> I can't do it either - anything about kurdish transgingers?


If there is shes prob upset about it


----------



## weepiper (Oct 12, 2014)

Rural said:


> @unquietpirate @soletvebe @flyingteacosy @joshsamuels I find this exchange really upsetting. I feel judged for expressing pride.
> 
> LP on twitter (sorry idk how to link so the tweet appears here, I mean come on u all must know I can barely manage to reply coherently!) Just wanted to point out how the usual silencing technique *I'm upset, stop upsetting me* is still being used every time she's called out. This time for upsetting bisexuals. Also lol about feeling judged on twitter. What does she think ppl do to tweets they read?


You click on a particular tweet then copy the url at the top address bar then paste it in the reply box here and it embeds it for you, like this



edit, I mean click on 'details' at the bottom first...


----------



## Rural (Oct 12, 2014)

I will weepiper said:


> You click on a particular tweet then copy the url at the top address bar then paste it in the reply box here and it embeds it for you, like this



Thanks i will def have a go!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 13, 2014)

Rural said:


> http://laurie-penny.com/on-weev-fascism-and-the-free-internet/
> 
> This was actually what I was looking for on her twitter when I became distracted by her being upset when called out. Again.


Love how she's putting his facism down to a change in heart whilst in prison, and is in complete denial about him always being a misogynist anti-semite facist.


----------



## Rural (Oct 13, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Love how she's putting his facism down to a change in heart whilst in prison, and is in complete denial about him always being a misogynist anti-semite facist.


Basically "i am going to cheer on someone i find adorbs & who I completely distance myself from & find repugnant".

Edit - "he's a lovely guy apart from everything he says & everything he does"


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 13, 2014)

I've been looking at this thread since before I joined Urban75 and I don't know much about many of the members of the Commentariat mentioned recently or many of the places where they seem to do whatever it is they do such as Facebook, Twitter and Tumblr.  I'd heard of Laurie Penny because she has written for The Guardian, The Independent and the New Statesman and I had thought she was one of the better writers of the new generation (along with Owen Jones) because whilst she wrote about issues such as feminism her views seemed to come from a wider socialist outlook.

However, this argument about Weev (who I'd never heard of) and other arguments involving other members of the Commentariat (such as Gamergate) seem to me to be like petty personal arguments between groups of children in a playground than debates about the major issues of our time like the wars in Syria and Iraq, Britain's relationship with the EU or the state of the NHS.

Is that a fair assessment of some of the Commentariat?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> You don't understand: Oxford University the _racist institution of privilege_ is nothing to do with the Oxford University made up of all those _smartest boys and girls from very smart schools_. Entirely different things.



Oxford's greatest crime was to inflict Radiohead on the rest of the world, surely?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 13, 2014)

fuck off, OK Computer is a stone classic

also wtf username


----------



## krink (Oct 13, 2014)

Were Ride based in Oxford? I liked them.


----------



## andysays (Oct 13, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> ...I'd heard of Laurie Penny because she has written for The Guardian, The Independent and the New Statesman and I had thought she was one of the better writers of the new generation (along with Owen Jones) because whilst she wrote about issues such as feminism her views seemed to come from a wider socialist outlook...



"seemed" might be the appropriate word there


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 13, 2014)

krink said:


> Were Ride based in Oxford? I liked them.



I'm partial to the occasional ride myself.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2014)

krink said:


> Were Ride based in Oxford? I liked them.


Class traitor.


----------



## krink (Oct 13, 2014)

[QUOTE "butchersapron, post: 13462704, member: 366"]Class traitor.[/QUOTE]
I didnt know. And when I did know it was too late, dammit.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 13, 2014)

I would have thought that weev would have been the sort of 4chan shite that any decent campaigner against misogynism etc online should be getting upset about.


----------



## chilango (Oct 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Class traitor.



Chapterhouse.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I would have thought that weev would have been the sort of 4chan shite that any decent campaigner against misogynism etc online should be getting upset about.


 
Honestly he seems worse than the average 4chan onanist, I get the impression that while most of them probably are a little bit racist and sexist they aren't actual blood and soil neo-Nazis which makes the commentariat's behaviour even worse.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 13, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> I
> However, this argument about Weev (who I'd never heard of) and other arguments involving other members of the Commentariat (such as Gamergate) seem to me to be like petty personal arguments between groups of children in a playground



This is what strikes me too.  The _infantilism _of them all.  I don´t know how they manage to remain so innocent.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> <snip> I don´t know how they manage to remain so innocent.


Naive, surely.  Or unworldly if you really must.


----------



## Rural (Oct 13, 2014)

Greebopost: 13463853 said:
			
		

> Naive, surely.  Or unworldly if you really must.


Self-obsessed i'd call it but maybe I'm being mean :/


----------



## Greebo (Oct 13, 2014)

Rural said:


> Self-obsessed i'd call it but maybe I'm being mean :/


You are.  Self-obsessed animals like cats can't help how they are and you're comparing them to humans who supposedly have a bit more awareness and choice in the matter.


----------



## Rural (Oct 13, 2014)

Greebo3464090 said:
			
		

> You are.  Self-obsessed animals like cats can't help how they are and you're comparing them to humans who supposedly have a bit more awarenes and choice in the matter.


Cats r always wonderful & can do no wrong ever


----------



## Greebo (Oct 13, 2014)

Rural said:


> Cats r always wonderful & can do no wrong ever


I've never claimed such a thing.


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> This is what strikes me too.  The _infantilism _of them all.  I don´t know how they manage to remain so innocent.



Infantilism is a very good description of the mentality but I think I know why it persists.

There have been arguments on the Internet since long before Twitter (which was launched in 2006) and Facebook (2004).  The World Wide Web was launched in 1991 but Godwin's Law was established in 1990 and it was inspired by discussions on Usenet (which was launched in 1980).  However, because social networking websites like Facebook and Twitter became globally known, were simpler to use and have features such as "like" buttons and follower counts groups and rivalries on those sites grew bigger and faster.

Meanwhile, newspapers and magazines have been struggling as print sales have fallen, more people have accessed their content online and new online-only news sites like HuffPo and Guido Fawkes have sprung up.  In their desperation to generate clicks at low cost newspapers and magazines like The Guardian, The Independent, The Telegraph and the New Statesman have looked for writers who have popular blogs or thousands of followers on Facebook or Twitter and commissioned articles from them or given them columns.  Some of them are awful writers who make themselves and their publications look stupid but they generate the clicks.

If you think about the Commentariat in footballing terms Owen Jones is a player who has been signed by The Guardian with a view to replacing the long-serving Premier League left-winger Polly Toynbee when she retires, Laurie Penny is a player who has yo-yo-ed between the Premier League and the Championship and Johann Hari was banned from the game for taking performance-enhancing quotes.  The people who get into arguments like the one about Weev or Gamergate are young players hoping that they will be the next to be plucked from the lower tiers of the Commentariat League and asked by The Guardian to write a thousand words about the latest petty argument or the topic about which they have written badly for a few months.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 13, 2014)

you know of owen jones so presumably you have read his bbook, Chavs: The Demonization of the working class

So why the username.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 13, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> If you think about the Commentariat in footballing terms Owen Jones is a player who has been signed by The Guardian with a view to replacing the long-serving Premier League left-winger Polly Toynbee when she retires, Laurie Penny is a player who has yo-yo-ed between the Premier League and the Championship and Johann Hari was banned from the game for taking performance-enhancing quotes.  The people who get into arguments like the one about Weev or Gamergate are young players hoping that they will be the next to be plucked from the lower tiers of the Commentariat League and asked by The Guardian to write a thousand words about the latest petty argument or the topic about which they have written badly for a few months.



Good analogy.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> Infantilism is a very good description of the mentality but I think I know why it persists.
> 
> There have been arguments on the Internet since long before Twitter (which was launched in 2006) and Facebook (2004).  The World Wide Web was launched in 1991 but Godwin's Law was established in 1990 and it was inspired by discussions on Usenet (which was launched in 1980).  However, because social networking websites like Facebook and Twitter became globally known, were simpler to use and have features such as "like" buttons and follower counts groups and rivalries on those sites grew bigger and faster.
> 
> ...



You make some very good points.  I dont disagree with any of them.

However, I think we have to locate some of the blame beyond the media, in wider society.  I think people who received their secondary and tertiary education in this century were systematically deprived of historical knowledge, political analysis and philosophical skill.  Instead they were fed a diet of superficial, self-congratulatory anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-homophobia that has rendered them incapable of rational discussion above the level of: "ooh, he said the N-Word!  He is such a baddie.  Ooh, she looked at me in a creepy way, Im never talking to her again."  And so forth.  It would be deplorable were it not so hilarious.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> banned from the game for taking performance-enhancing quotes


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you know of owen jones so presumably you have read his bbook, Chavs: The Demonization of the working class
> 
> So why the username.



My username is the one I used on The Guardian's website in response to a 2008 article by some Fabians who wanted to ban the word "chav".  The writers didn't understand the meaning of the word and how people (including working-class people) used it and when I registered I had to pick a username and it was the first thing that came to mind.  I've kept it because I don't think I can remember another username for another website.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

its a false division- same as lumpen. We get enough othering done by the middle classes lets not start on ourselves


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You make some very good points.  I dont disagree with any of them.
> 
> However, I think we have to locate some of the blame beyond the media, in wider society.  I think people who received their secondary and tertiary education in this century were systematically deprived of historical knowledge, political analysis and philosophical skill.  Instead they were fed a diet of superficial, self-congratulatory anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-homophobia that has rendered them incapable of rational discussion above the level of: "ooh, he said the N-Word!  He is such a baddie.  Ooh, she looked at me in a creepy way, Im never talking to her again."  And so forth.  It would be deplorable were it not so hilarious.



Absolutely.  I pay very little attention to the news compared to a decade or so ago because even the political debates on the major news, current affairs and political programmes are often about the personalities of politicians, the current status of particular politicians or parties or the tactics of the political game, not the issues or the social problems millions of people face.  Newspapers are even worse for this.  Politics and journalism have become like team sports and accusations of racism or sexism are often just one side trying to get an opponent like Jeremy Clarkson or Rod Liddle sent off.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> Absolutely.  I pay very little attention to the news compared to a decade or so ago because even the political debates on the major news, current affairs and political programmes are often about the personalities of politicians, the current status of particular politicians or parties or the tactics of the political game, not the issues or the social problems millions of people face.  Newspapers are even worse for this.  Politics and journalism have become like team sports and accusations of racism or sexism are often just one side trying to get an opponent like Jeremy Clarkson or Rod Liddle sent off.



The best (almost the only) place to find out what is really going on these days is the business press.  Not so much the Wall St Journal, which is crap, but the FT and the business sections of the Sundays.  They have to tell the truth, because their readers bank balances suffer if they dont.


----------



## Rural (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> Infantilism is a very good description of the mentality but I think I know why it persists.
> 
> There have been arguments on the Internet since long before Twitter (which was launched in 2006) and Facebook (2004).  The World Wide Web was launched in 1991 but Godwin's Law was established in 1990 and it was inspired by discussions on Usenet (which was launched in 1980).  However, because social networking websites like Facebook and Twitter became globally known, were simpler to use and have features such as "like" buttons and follower counts groups and rivalries on those sites grew bigger and faster.
> 
> ...


Oh god LP is the QPR of the media world


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

#weareallqprnow


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The best (almost the only) place to find out what is really going on these days is the business press.  Not so much the Wall St Journal, which is crap, but the FT and the business sections of the Sundays.  They have to tell the truth, because their readers bank balances suffer if they dont.



I can believe that.  Britain doesn't really have a quality press worthy of the description any more.  The Guardian is a bad parody of itself.  The Independent newspaper is better than The Guardian but The Independent's website is terrible.  The Telegraph becomes more like the Daily Mail every day.  The Times is probably the best but it's the best of a very bad bunch and they are all obsessed with serving middle-class readers in London and the South East, whichever overseas market they have decided to target and people who will retweet links to their clickbait.

That's one of the reasons why it took so long for the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal to be uncovered.  Once something approaching the full story was uncovered a few months ago the Commentariat had very little to say about it because the story was too complicated to write about quickly, politically too difficult to write about and it didn't affect them.


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> #weareallqprnow



It could be worse.  We could be Leeds United.


----------



## Rural (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> It could be worse.  We could be Leeds United.


I like QPR, they r my team. I want LP to be someone like Millwall or Arsenal


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

shes dulwitch hamlet fc


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> shes dulwitch hamlet fc



Sunday Parks League, more like.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> I can believe that.  Britain doesn't really have a quality press worthy of the description any more.  The Guardian is a bad parody of itself.  The Independent newspaper is better than The Guardian but The Independent's website is terrible.  The Telegraph becomes more like the Daily Mail every day.  The Times is probably the best but it's the best of a very bad bunch and they are all obsessed with serving middle-class readers in London and the South East, whichever overseas market they have decided to target and people who will retweet links to their clickbait.



I know.  The rare times I look at the British press these days its with a resigned incredulity that it has fallen so far. 

The only decent non-business newspaper in the Anglophone world these days is the _New York Times._


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

Workers Girder, I think you mean


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 14, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> It could be worse.  We could be Leeds United.



As commemorated in song by the great Amanda Palmer herself.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2014)

So does all this make Polly Toynbe Real Madrid?


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So does all this make Polly Toynbe Real Madrid?



Fiorentina, surely...


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 14, 2014)

Slightly baffling Richard Seymour piece in the guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/14/why-hostility-immigrants-uk-racism
It flips between saying anti-immigrant feeling has deep historical roots, and saying it is a product of neo-liberalism, while being very vague about both lines of development.
And contains the bizarre assertion (without evidence) that anti-immigration feeling  has little to do with negative personal experiences of the impact of immigration.
He sometimes makes sense but this is bordering on gibberish. It all just smacks of "Don't call anti-immigrant voters racist in your way - I know the right way to call them racist."
Can't see why he wrote this except for the money - but cif doesn't even pay very much I'm told.

Edit: perhaps it's unfair to say it was just for the money, but it certainly feels rushed to a deadline. It might have made sense if he'd spent a couple more weeks thinking about it but this is like an email reply to a friend in a lunch break at work, not a well-thought-out argument.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm reliably informed they pay per hit on cif. You can imagine the effect this might have on the kind of journalism people therefore submit...


----------



## rekil (Oct 14, 2014)

Has Paul Mason "lost it"?



> If the miners had possessed smartphones, Twitter and the Human Rights Act – let alone al-Jazeera and Russia Today – the outcome might have been different.


If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You make some very good points.  I dont disagree with any of them.
> 
> However, I think we have to locate some of the blame beyond the media, in wider society.  I think people who received their secondary and tertiary education in this century were systematically deprived of historical knowledge, political analysis and philosophical skill.  Instead they were fed a diet of superficial, self-congratulatory anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-homophobia that has rendered them incapable of rational discussion above the level of: "ooh, he said the N-Word!  He is such a baddie.  Ooh, she looked at me in a creepy way, Im never talking to her again."  And so forth.  It would be deplorable were it not so hilarious.


yeh the lecturers and profs have a lot to answer for


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has Paul Mason "lost it"?
> 
> 
> If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?




if only they had used social media they might have won. Like the time anon toppled muburak singlehandedly


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has Paul Mason "lost it"?
> 
> 
> If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?



If the miners had had smartphones, Thatcher would have made texting illegal.


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> I'm reliably informed they pay per hit on cif. You can imagine the effect this might have on the kind of journalism people therefore submit...



Brainaddict posting that link has probably earned Seymour a few quid then, as we all go to check out his latest musings...


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 14, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> if only they had used social media they might have won. Like the time anon toppled muburak singlehandedly


 Mason periodically writes stuff like this. I read it as him selling himself to editors etc as being down with the kids, edgy, relevant...


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> Brainaddict posting that link has probably earned Seymour a few quid then, as we all go to check out his latest musings...


 Imagine what this thread has added to Laurie Penny's personal bank balance then.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 14, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> As commemorated in song by the great Amanda Palmer herself.


I haven't washed my left tit since she signed it outside a gig a few years back.  Her signature is long gone, but y'know...


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 14, 2014)

The Boy said:


> I haven't washed my left tit since she signed it outside a gig a few years back.  Her signature is long gone, but y'know...



Like you need an excuse for not washing.


----------



## rekil (Oct 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> Brainaddict posting that link has probably earned Seymour a few quid then, as we all go to check out his latest musings...


This then, if it works - www.donotlink.com


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> This then, if it works - www.donotlink.com



Good shout


----------



## Belushi (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has Paul Mason "lost it"?





> some of the Welsh miners who slept on my living room floor in Leicester in 1984 had never eaten a samosa.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has Paul Mason "lost it"?
> 
> 
> If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

there were no firebox takeawway vans in those dark days


----------



## Belushi (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm hoping for a new big budget British comedy where a group of Welsh Miners are led out into the daylight and introduced to ethnic food for the first time.


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

If the miners had possessed smartphones and Twitter instead of there being collections of money and food for miners and their families there might have been trending hashtags and the miners and their families would have starved to death.

I believe Paul Mason when he talks about economics.  When he talks about politics and technology I believe he's deluded.


----------



## Sue (Oct 14, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I'm hoping for a new big budget British comedy where a group of Welsh Miners are led out into the daylight and introduced to ethnic food for the first time.



....and I can think of just the ex-London Mayoral candidate for the job...


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 14, 2014)

If the miners had possessed smartphones they could have phoned for a takeaway.


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 14, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I'm hoping for a new big budget British comedy where a group of Welsh Miners are led out into the daylight and introduced to ethnic food for the first time.


 
"'Half and Half" is a heartwarming tale for all the family......


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

If the miners had possessed coal-powered smartphones they could have tweeted for days because when they ran low on power they could have blown on their phones to get more power or tipped a teaspoon of nutty slack in the back.

Although they would have been wise not to put the chimney on their smartphones near their mouth or nose.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 14, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> If the miners had possessed smartphones they could have phoned for a takeaway.


Being Welsh miners, I'm sure they wouldn't even have needed to phone, they could've just used an ap.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Being Welsh miners, I'm sure they wouldn't even have needed to phone, they could've just used an ap.



OK, we're done here people.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> Has Paul Mason "lost it"?
> 
> 
> If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?


 
I can really imagine Owen and Laurie and going off to Yorkshire or Durham to hang around with working class people.


Have either of them ever been seen further north than Oxford?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 14, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> Have either of them ever been seen further north than Oxford?



Only on nights when the moon is full.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 14, 2014)

Belushi said:


>


 
I can't imagine either of my parents, born and bred in East London, could have identified a samosa, in 1984.  And I don't think my parents were weird in that respect.  My grandma lived the first 80 years of her life in East London and probably couldn't identify a samosa today.

Just to put that bloke's weird fucking idea into context.


----------



## rekil (Oct 14, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> I can really imagine Owen and Laurie and going off to Yorkshire or Durham to hang around with working class people.
> 
> 
> Have either of them ever been seen further north than Oxford?


OJ is from Stockport and he *does* go up and down the country. He even says he was in Ireland last year, scolding the ultra left for not being in Labour maybe.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Only on nights when the moon is full.




beware the journoman when the moon is fat


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> OJ is from Stockport and he *does* go up and down the country. He even says he was in Ireland last year, scolding the ultra left for not being in Labour maybe.



He was speaking at an event organised by the Socialist Party in Dublin! He was pretty good too from what I remember. To be fair, he doesn't automatically advocate that people in other countries should join their local labour/soc dem party.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 14, 2014)

copliker said:


> OJ is from Stockport and he *does* go up and down the country. He even says he was in Ireland last year, scolding the ultra left for not being in Labour maybe.


 
i would have thought someone from stockport would have grown up too sensible to be owen jones.  you live and learn.  well, you might, i try not to.  now i imagine the boy jones, dreaming of islington, where the streets were paved with lattes and the labour club was full of dashing young blades.


----------



## rekil (Oct 14, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> He was speaking at an event organised by the Socialist Party in Dublin! He was pretty good too from what I remember. To be fair, he doesn't automatically advocate that people in other countries should join their local labour/soc dem party.


Ganging up with the local winning side is a little bit communism.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 14, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i would have thought someone from stockport would have grown up too sensible to be owen jones.  you live and learn.  well, you might, i try not to.  now i imagine the boy jones, dreaming of islington, where the streets were paved with lattes and the labour club was full of dashing young blades.



But father, we must all live our lives according to our lights.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 14, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> 80s LARPing for middle class kids from the home counties.  DM boots, donkey jackets, living in ex-council flats in formerly run-down inner cities, doing smack and listening to the specials.  reading laurie penny articles because it's the closest thing they've got to radical angry political firebrands.


Quoted because I can't find the retro Miners' Strike chic fashion tumblr so this will have to do as a temporary placeholder


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Quoted because I can't find the retro Miners' Strike chic fashion tumblr so this will have to do as a temporary placeholder


FOUND IT!!!

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...cebook-handbags.266196/page-610#post-12197334







Gone but not forgotten...


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> He was speaking at an event organised by the Socialist Party in Dublin!* He was pretty good too from what I remember.* To be fair, he doesn't automatically advocate that people in other countries should join their local labour/soc dem party.



Either pissed, not fully concentrating or beginnings of dementia?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 14, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Either pissed, not fully concentrating or beginnings of dementia?



Any of the above are possible in my case. As for him, well he didn't seem pissed, but I can't entirely rule out the other two.


----------



## Rural (Oct 14, 2014)

QUOTE="copliker, post: 13465135, member: 33737"]Has Paul Mason "lost it"?


If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?[/QUOTE]
Im sure the support of occupy would have led to victory for the miners. LP could have taught them intersectionality & crabby could have drawn some lovely pics of Scargill & indigenous miners. Ah the missed opportunities...


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 14, 2014)

Rural said:


> Im sure the support of occupy would have led to victory for the miners. LP could have taught them intersectionality & crabby could have drawn some lovely pics of Scargill & indigenous miners. Ah the missed opportunities...



Absolutely.  Given how the Occupy movement took power throughout the Western world, reduced the influence of large multinational corporations and reformed the global financial system and made the world a fairer, more democratic and more stable place I'm sure they could have stopped the programme of pit closures in Britain in the 1980's.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2014)

Rural said:


> QUOTE="copliker, post: 13465135, member: 33737"]Has Paul Mason "lost it"?
> 
> 
> If they'd had Max Keiser shouting at them about bitcoins they would've done a bit better?


Im sure the support of occupy would have led to victory for the miners. LP could have taught them intersectionality & crabby could have drawn some lovely pics of Scargill & indigenous miners. Ah the missed opportunities...[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of Annakees position years ago that a local strike would have been won if it was on twitter and they performed a musical or something bonkers


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 15, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> samosa, in 1984.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2014)

phildwyer said:


>



I always had you down as a bit younger


----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 15, 2014)

...should've been in that Two Ronnies skecth...

"...have you got some 'ose..."

"...samosas..?"


----------



## Rural (Oct 15, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Im sure the support of occupy would have led to victory for the miners. LP could have taught them intersectionality & crabby could have drawn some lovely pics of Scargill & indigenous miners. Ah the missed opportunities...


Reminds me of Annakees position years ago that a local strike would have been won if it was on twitter and they performed a musical or something bonkers[/QUOTE]

I'm now imagining an anon version of Les Mis starring Laurie& Owen.


----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 15, 2014)

.....this is just eye-gougingly cringe-making....and you have to pay Murdoch to read it on-line...


----------



## Rural (Oct 16, 2014)

Wish ppl would stop referring to USA as "a newish country". There were ppl there b4 Columbus. Tho there's plenty more awful things about that article.


----------



## captainmission (Oct 16, 2014)

This was posted before - https://olaasm.wordpress.com/2014/1...te-weevgate-abusers-their-knowing-apologists/

detailing how Kathy Sierra emailed Molly Crabapple informing her Weev a serial harasser while she was busy lionising him in her articles.

Turns out laurie penny didn't like this, so retweeted a troll account to her 100,000 followersthat doxxed the author of that piece. When he complained she accused him of harassing him and said she felt threatened.


----------



## newbie (Oct 16, 2014)

I hadn't realised that LP is a notable name in the US but she gets a couple of namechecks in this rather fine, if long, blogpost which I don't think has been mentioned on here

http://ohtarzie.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/the-celebrity-left-wars/#comment-13497



> Zionist, white supremacist publicist, and risible snob Laurie Penny, when confronted with the possibility that something other than her gender inspires criticism, offers another crash course in how to argue like a Celebrity Left. The entire conversation is a grim study in how infantile narcissism and the hasbara-like maneuvering of this riff-raff complement each other.


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2014)

> If you look at funding sources and the demographic makeup of participants, the presumed border between mainstream and alternative media is largely imagined. That means that the system of reward and punishment for coloring inside and outside lines is in play everywhere, though the lines themselves may differ. This thesis gets more credible as left politics gain purchase in commercial ventures like Comcast, Vice, and Huffington Post and elicit the patronage of tech billionaire Pierre Omidyar and media mogul Rupert Murdoch.


This bit.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 16, 2014)

Calling LP a white supremacist or a Zionist is ridiculous, what is this accusation of 'Zionism' based on other than her fleetingly mentioned and supposed Jewish ancestry?

BTW wtf is this supposed 'culture war' that LP keeps bringing up? Is she consciously trying to imitate the vacuousness of Fox News or something?


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2014)

Its based on a tweet, linked to in the article.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2014)

**


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 16, 2014)




----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2014)

(fwiw that postscript was the least interesting part of the piece, and it is a bit silly calling her a Zionist over the tweet mentioned - though the tweet itself is definitely worth highlighting)


----------



## newbie (Oct 16, 2014)

killer b said:


> (fwiw that postscript was the least interesting part of the piece


aye fair enough, but it was the fact that she counts as a celebrity leftist over there that I was trying to highlight. There are posts about Greenwald, Snowden and Chomsky so she's in good company.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2014)

It's actually from an article - the tweet of a line form it and the polite question were met by _you're threatening me nonsense and bluster and i didn't een say those lines anyway_ so i guess that's why that part was highlighted again. From the article:



> Because in the end, it is about blood. Not blood as metonym or metaphor, but the actual stuff, wet on the faces of screaming children in Gaza. It’s about blood, and how much more of it will have to be shed before Israel finally feels “safe”, and how long the international community will stand by. The moral basis for Israel’s persecution of the Palestinian people is eroding fast. It is not anti-Semitic to say “not in my name”.




The clumsy writing revealing a logic that there had been previously been a moral basis for Israel’s persecution of the Palestinian people. Terrible unclear thought process and clumsy writing - and in attempting to deny it happened she only succeeded in making it stick in peoples memories.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 16, 2014)

I think all of that is indicative of laziness and ignorance rather than Zionism to be honest.


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I think all of that is indicative of laziness and ignorance rather than Zionism to be honest.


I suppose you could argue that it's indicative of some kind of unconscious, internalised zionism at work. But I agree, and I think it muddies the water to claim it too. Seems a bit out of place with the rest of the article too - is the writer taking the piss perhaps?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 16, 2014)




----------



## rekil (Oct 16, 2014)

Brand hawking his stocking filler in NY 

*waggly hands*

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ell-brand-occupy-wall-street-protesters-video


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 16, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 62503


 
what is that i don't even


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> what is that i don't even


Yer man Johann hari dipping his toe back in?


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 16, 2014)

copliker said:


> *waggly hands*



RESPECT the waggly hands!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 16, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 62503


Like a watered-down Stewart Home. Stewart Homeopathy, if you will.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 16, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> what is that i don't even



Book launch!

Meta-commentariat pulp fiction.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2014)

_Looters, Tooters and Sawn-Off Shooters_ for the w/c who went to uni but are now embarrassed and cut-off.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 16, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Book launch!
> 
> Meta-commentariat pulp fiction.


 
i'm not sure i'm the target audience of that.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 16, 2014)

OJ is going to be in us soon


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 16, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm not sure i'm the target audience of that.



You read enough shite about about them on here. 

I expect it will be like that, but with more sex and violence.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> OJ is going to be in us soon



£7 concessions.

_Feel it._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> £7 concessions.
> 
> _Feel it._


Hopefully there won't be any h8rz _deeply resenting_ this attempt to_ reach a_ _mass audience_.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Hopefully there won't be any h8rz _deeply resenting_ this attempt to_ reach a_ _mass audience_.





> _*And How They Get Away with It*_



If anyone wants to hear this advert for free...it's here


----------



## J Ed (Oct 16, 2014)

They are all too busy reading OJ's syndicated Greatest Graunid Hits


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> They are all too busy reading OJ's syndicated Greatest Graunid Hits



with gloves on i hope


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 16, 2014)

J Ed said:


> They are all too busy reading OJ's syndicated Greatest Graunid Hits



I'd wager that more inner city sixth formers have been politicised reading Chomsky than have or ever will be by reading The Establishment.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Hopefully there won't be any h8rz _deeply resenting_ this attempt to_ reach a_ _mass audience_.



Reaching a mass audience, yesterday:


----------



## J Ed (Oct 17, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I'd wager that more inner city sixth formers have been politicised reading Chomsky than have or ever will be by reading The Establishment.



Chomsky is definitely a great gateway writer, not sure if you can say the same for OJ


----------



## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

only for those with intellectualist leanings and an appetite for long/obscure/academic words.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> only for those with intellectualist leanings and an appetite for long/obscure/academic words.


What peculiar prejudices you betray.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> What peculiar prejudices you betray.



with 15 character words...


----------



## J Ed (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> only for those with intellectualist leanings and an appetite for long/obscure/academic words.


 
Are you talking about OJ or Chomsky? I don't think that what you are arguing here applies to either of them, I read the Fateful Triangle when I was 14. Chomsky writes in an unpretentious common sense way. Any literate student of that age who is sufficiently interested can read Chomsky's political stuff.


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## killer b (Oct 17, 2014)

Have you read any Chomsky newbie? He's pretty careful not to use obscure academic language - the exact opposite of what you say.


----------



## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> What peculiar prejudices you betray.


you think? From my perspective the peculiar ones are those who read, understand and can reproduce the nuances of philosophical or political theories because IME & IMO most of us can't. So we defer to those that can and rely on their abilities to aid our understanding.  That applies to this forum just as much as to Chomsky or the rest of the celeb left commentariat.

I've been trying to imagine who would work as a gateway for 16/17 year olds, though I'm reluctant to limit it to 6th formers since that's only a subset of the agegroup, many of whom don't pass exams. It's not been defined what the gateway is to, I suppose, but the current crop of social justice warriors, intersectionalists and so on passed through some sort of gateway.  They're a tiny, tiny percentage of their peers, but still.  Was that reading Chomsky aged 14, did they read Chavs, did they follow pennyred on twitter?  or was it Harry Potter?

If the answer to that really is Chomsky, who is 85 and has been writing for decades, then why has the gateway effect worn off in so many of their older peers who now appear to be under the spell of UKIP, who (I'd have thought) owe little to Chomsky?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> you think? From my perspective the peculiar ones are those who read, understand and can reproduce the nuances of philosophical or political theories because IME & IMO most of us can't. So we defer to those that can and rely on their abilities to aid our understanding.  That applies to this forum just as much as to Chomsky or the rest of the celeb left commentariat.
> 
> I've been trying to imagine who would work as a gateway for 16/17 year olds, though I'm reluctant to limit it to 6th formers since that's only a subset of the agegroup, many of whom don't pass exams. It's not been defined what the gateway is to, I suppose, but the current crop of social justice warriors, intersectionalists and so on passed through some sort of gateway.  They're a tiny, tiny percentage of their peers, but still.  Was that reading Chomsky aged 14, did they read Chavs, did they follow pennyred on twitter?  or was it Harry Potter?
> 
> If the answer to that really is Chomsky, who is 85 and has been writing for decades, then why has the gateway effect worn off in so many of their older peers who now appear to be under the spell of UKIP, who (I'd have thought) owe little to Chomsky?



So the answer to killer b's question is no. With some wordy waffle.


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## andysays (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> ...or was it Harry Potter?
> 
> If the answer to that really is Chomsky, who is 85 and has been writing for decades, then why has the gateway effect worn off in so many of their older peers who now appear to be under the spell of UKIP, who (I'd have thought) owe little to Chomsky?



Who are you suggesting is "under the spell" of UKIP, or is this just an extension of your reference to Harry Potter?


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## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

No it's not, I've tried, by and large I fall asleep, as with most tracts.


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## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> Who are you suggesting is "under the spell" of UKIP, or is this just an extension of your reference to Harry Potter?


sort of the latter, but it's pretty plain that a fair chunk of the older brothers/sisters and parents/grandparents of the current teenagers are sympathetic to what UKIP is saying.


----------



## rekil (Oct 17, 2014)

Helen Lewis gives the Kathy Sierra case the mention with some awkward bits filleted out.

Eg this kind of thing.




			
				lauriepenny said:
			
		

> If one thing unites the hackers and whistleblowers hunted by the US government over the past three years, from Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden to *notorious prankster Andrew "weev" Auernheimer*, it is that they have little respect for the moral authority of the US government and its mechanisms. They are in their teens and 20s; they grew up in the Bush, Blair and Brown years and came of age just as the financial crash of 2008 swept away the socioeconomic justification for Anglo-American imperialism. The online culture that they helped create believes deeply in transparency and, to that culture, digital activists who risk everything for the public's "right to know" are heroes.



If the SWP had plonked themselves in that loon's corner, the intersectionalistas would've gone ballistic, tipping over stalls and the like.


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## andysays (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> sort of the latter, but it's pretty plain that a fair chunk of the older brothers/sisters and parents/grandparents of the current teenagers are sympathetic to what UKIP is saying.



But are you suggesting that these people are the same ones who once read and understood Chomsky, and have since gone on to reproduce the nuances of philosophical or political theories, and that some of them are here? If so, maybe you'd clarify by naming them.

Otherwise I don't see how your post #9738 makes any sense at all


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> you think? From my perspective the peculiar ones are those who read, understand and can reproduce the nuances of philosophical or political theories because IME & IMO most of us can't. So we defer to those that can and rely on their abilities to aid our understanding.  That applies to this forum just as much as to Chomsky or the rest of the celeb left commentariat.
> 
> I've been trying to imagine who would work as a gateway for 16/17 year olds, though I'm reluctant to limit it to 6th formers since that's only a subset of the agegroup, many of whom don't pass exams. It's not been defined what the gateway is to, I suppose, but the current crop of social justice warriors, intersectionalists and so on passed through some sort of gateway.  They're a tiny, tiny percentage of their peers, but still.  Was that reading Chomsky aged 14, did they read Chavs, did they follow pennyred on twitter?  or was it Harry Potter?
> 
> If the answer to that really is Chomsky, who is 85 and has been writing for decades, then why has the gateway effect worn off in so many of their older peers who now appear to be under the spell of UKIP, who (I'd have thought) owe little to Chomsky?


 
I don't think anyone was claiming that Chomsky's work has politicised the majority of people. They were just countering your misconception that Chomsky's political stuff is "nuanced political theory" and accessible only to intellectuals. It's a caricature that doesn't stand up to actually reading it.

Here's the first article I came across on Chomsky's website. I could find just two words that you might reasonably classify as long/obscure "Extirpate" and "marginalia". As to the theory, is the idea that the US condemns things that others do, whilst also doing them and letting their allies do them really that complex?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> No it's not, I've tried, by and large I fall asleep, as with most tracts.



Including this one?



Spoiler


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> only for those with intellectualist leanings and an appetite for long/obscure/academic words.


Er, no. Chomsky's work is pretty accessible. Besides, what's wrong with long words? Expand your vocab, maaaan!


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## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

andysays said:


> But are you suggesting that these people are the same ones who once read and understood Chomsky, and have since gone on to reproduce the nuances of philosophical or political theories, and that some of them are here? If so, maybe you'd clarify by naming them.
> 
> Otherwise I don't see how your post #9738 makes any sense at all


If Chomsky works as a gateway, he's not been very effective.  Plenty of people here seem to think his writing is accessible and persuasive- apparently it's only me that finds him dry and academic. He's been prominent for decades, and the post I initially responded to said "Chomsky is definitely a great gateway writer".  I don't know how many of the current UKIP sympathisers read him at some point during those decades, but some of them must have done, if he's such a great writer, or such a great gateway.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> If Chomsky works as a gateway, he's not been very effective.  Plenty of people here seem to think his writing is accessible and persuasive- apparently it's only me that finds him dry and academic. He's been prominent for decades, and the post I initially responded to said "Chomsky is definitely a great gateway writer".  I don't know how many of the current UKIP sympathisers read him at some point during those decades, but some of them must have done, if he's such a great writer, or such a great gateway.


 
I'm not sure what exactly you think that proves. Most people don't share Richard Littlejohn's views, does that make him dry and inaccessible?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> I don't know how many of the current UKIP sympathisers read him at some point during those decades, but some of them must have done


 
Some, sure, how many exactly do you think? Plus, no one is suggesting that Chomsky's writing suddenly magically turns everyone into 'born again' libertarian socialists. There are definitely right-libertarians, Islamists and even neo-Nazis who read, quote and draw their own conclusions from Chomsky but that is not exactly the majority. Are you seriously criticising Chomsky on the basis that 1) Chomsky's writing exists 2) UKIP supporters exist therefore Chomsky's writing is academic and dry and has failed to 'purify' the world of UKIP?


----------



## andysays (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> If Chomsky works as a gateway, he's not been very effective.  Plenty of people here seem to think his writing is accessible and persuasive- apparently it's only me that finds him dry and academic. He's been prominent for decades, and the post I initially responded to said "Chomsky is definitely a great gateway writer".  I don't know how many of the current UKIP sympathisers read him at some point during those decades, but some of them must have done, if he's such a great writer, or such a great gateway.



Looks like my and everyone else's initial reaction was right then - your post conflated various different things and didn't make any sense


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> only for those with intellectualist leanings and an appetite for long/obscure/academic words.



We must be reading different Noam Chomskys, as I've always found his socio-political work a marvel of clarity. I've read 8 of his books (I have another 2 on my "to read" pile - "The New Military Humanism" and "Imperial Ambitions"), and have always found his stuff relentlessly well-presented, easy to understand (unless you skim-read, in which case you deserve everything you get) and well-supported with references to sources.
Your sentence above applies more to Will Self (I've read 4 books of his, so have a reasonable base for comparison  ) than Noam Chomsky.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

killer b said:


> Have you read any Chomsky newbie? He's pretty careful not to use obscure academic language - the exact opposite of what you say.



Unless he's reading some of Chomsky's collected papers on linguistics - some of those are a bit dense, but understandably so when his linguistics work is aimed at a quite narrow academic "audience".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I don't think anyone was claiming that Chomsky's work has politicised the majority of people. They were just countering your misconception that Chomsky's political stuff is "nuanced political theory" and accessible only to intellectuals. It's a caricature that doesn't stand up to actually reading it.



Yup.
What does sometimes happen with Chomsky's work is that it inspires people to dig deeper, to have a peek behind the curtain, and what gets revealed can inspire others to think politically. As you rightly say, his work hasn't politicised "the majority of people". What it has arguably done, though, is to sort of activate a political virus in some people that has then spread - not to pandemic proportions, but enough to self-propagate.


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup.
> What does sometimes happen with Chomsky's work is that it inspires people to dig deeper, to have a peek behind the curtain, and what gets revealed can inspire others to think politically. As you rightly say, his work hasn't politicised "the majority of people". What it has arguably done, though, is to sort of activate a political virus in some people that has then spread - not to pandemic proportions, but enough to self-propagate.


Also thought that OJ's original idea, that inner city 6th formers (ie. code for working class teenagers) don't (can't?) read political work of that sort is a load of patronising arse.


----------



## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> We must be reading different Noam Chomskys, as I've always found his socio-political work a marvel of clarity. I've read 8 of his books (I have another 2 on my "to read" pile - "The New Military Humanism" and "Imperial Ambitions"), and have always found his stuff relentlessly well-presented, easy to understand (unless you skim-read, in which case you deserve everything you get) and well-supported with references to sources.
> Your sentence above applies more to Will Self (I've read 4 books of his, so have a reasonable base for comparison  ) than Noam Chomsky.



I have no bone to pick with you, or with anyone else here.  But you are in the minority of those who have the ability to read, understand and be able to put into perspective academic or polemical books on isms and ologies. So are most of the other contributors to this thread, some of whom are actual academics, some are not.  Your own experience, and your natural abilities, are not the same as the experiences and abilities of the bulk of the population, any more than being goodlooking, always in the first team at sport, having the ability to sing or paint or having a head for maths are universal.  Maybe all of those and more come naturally to everyone you know, but tbh I doubt it.  

A text based forum like this obviously favours those with abilities based on reading, understanding and writing text, as does the world of the commentariat.  So I shouldn't be surprised that few here will accept the view that the language of Chomskys journalism is unlikely to act as a gateway for more than a tiny minority of teenagers.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> Also thought that OJ's original idea, that inner city 6th formers (ie. code for working class teenagers) don't (can't?) read political work of that sort is a load of patronising arse.



Agreed. I can't speak for any other school but my own, but back in the '70s, I knew people besides me who'd read "The Communist Manifesto", "The Condition of the Working Class in England" and "The Making of the English Working Class" and other broadly-political works by the 5th year, and understood the messages they contained. 
While I'm aware that the National Curriculum has narrowed down what you read *in school*, any teen interested in politics nowadays can download most of the great political texts free, or borrow them from a library. It comes across like Owen is trying to sell his latest piece of work as a solution, but frankly I don't think that someone whose message reduces to a core of "vote Labour without illusions" is credible. Chomsky shows you how to think for yourself, as does Thompson, Marx and Engels, for that matter. Jones, on the other hand, leads you down a primrose path at the end of which lies Labour.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> I have no bone to pick with you, or with anyone else here.  But you are in the minority of those who have the ability to read, understand and be able to put into perspective academic or polemical books on isms and ologies. So are most of the other contributors to this thread, some of whom are actual academics, some are not.  Your own experience, and your natural abilities, are not the same as the experiences and abilities of the bulk of the population, any more than being goodlooking, always in the first team at sport, having the ability to sing or paint or having a head for maths are universal.  Maybe all of those and more come naturally to everyone you know, but tbh I doubt it.
> 
> A text based forum like this obviously favours those with abilities based on reading, understanding and writing text, as does the world of the commentariat.  So I shouldn't be surprised that few here will accept the view that the language of Chomskys journalism is unlikely to act as a gateway for more than a tiny minority of teenagers.



You are speaking (whether *they* like it or not) for the bulk of the population.
Do you have anything except personal prejudice to substantiate your position on the distribution of ability in terms of reading and understanding political texts as a late teenager (I'm thinking not)?
If so, set it out, allow it to be critiqued. If not...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Agreed. I can't speak for any other school but my own, but back in the '70s, I knew people besides me who'd read "The Communist Manifesto", "The Condition of the Working Class in England" and "The Making of the English Working Class" and other broadly-political works by the 5th year, and understood the messages they contained.
> While I'm aware that the National Curriculum has narrowed down what you read *in school*, any teen interested in politics nowadays can download most of the great political texts free, or borrow them from a library. It comes across like Owen is trying to sell his latest piece of work as a solution, but frankly I don't think that someone whose message reduces to a core of "vote Labour without illusions" is credible. Chomsky shows you how to think for yourself, as does Thompson, Marx and Engels, for that matter. Jones, on the other hand, leads you down a primrose path at the end of which lies Labour.


primroses more often associated with tories: e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primrose_League


----------



## newbie (Oct 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You are speaking (whether *they* like it or not) for the bulk of the population.
> Do you have anything except personal prejudice to substantiate your position on the distribution of ability in terms of reading and understanding political texts as a late teenager (I'm thinking not)?
> If so, set it out, allow it to be critiqued. If not...


Half, at least, of the population don't/didn't get into 6th form, they don't pass the exams, many of which rely on text based abilities.  

You're the one that describes Chomsky as _"easy to understand (unless you skim-read, in which case you deserve everything you get)"_, as though entirely unable to identify your own privilege.  Fine, but just because you find something easy doesn't mean everyone does- you must have some area of your life that you know others take to like a fish to water but you can't deal with, surely?  Or are you somehow so perfect that doesn't apply?  

I'm sorry, one of my personal failings is timing and I've got this one wrong.  I have to go out although I'd prefer to stay and discuss.  Later.


----------



## Rural (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> I have no bone to pick with you, or with anyone else here.  But you are in the minority of those who have the ability to read, understand and be able to put into perspective academic or polemical books on isms and ologies. So are most of the other contributors to this thread, some of whom are actual academics, some are not.  Your own experience, and your natural abilities, are not the same as the experiences and abilities of the bulk of the population, any more than being goodlooking, always in the first team at sport, having the ability to sing or paint or having a head for maths are universal.  Maybe all of those and more come naturally to everyone you know, but tbh I doubt it.
> 
> A text based forum like this obviously favours those with abilities based on reading, understanding and writing text, as does the world of the commentariat.  So I shouldn't be surprised that few here will accept the view that the language of Chomskys journalism is unlikely to act as a gateway for more than a tiny minority of teenagers.


I read the sentence as ending after "having a head". Blimey who doesn't have a head I was thinking.  Which obvs goes to show how clear my reading comprehension is :/


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

newbie said:


> Half, at least, of the population don't/didn't get into 6th form, they don't pass the exams, many of which rely on text based abilities.



And of that "half the population", how many "didn't pass the exams"? I suspect that as many again had no reason to want to stay until 6th-form anyway.



> You're the one that describes Chomsky as _"easy to understand (unless you skim-read, in which case you deserve everything you get)"_, as though entirely unable to identify your own privilege.  Fine, but just because you find something easy doesn't mean everyone does- you must have some area of your life that you know others take to like a fish to water but you can't deal with, surely?  Or are you somehow so perfect that doesn't apply?



I'm not claiming that "everyone" might find Chomsky easy to understand. I said that *I've* always found his stuff easy to understand. You must have missed that in your rush to try and point-score.
As for the rest of that paragraph, it reveals more about you than me. 



> I'm sorry, one of my personal failings is timing and I've got this one wrong.  I have to go out although I'd prefer to stay and discuss.  Later.



Later, indeed.


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## Bakunin (Oct 17, 2014)

copliker said:


> Helen Lewis gives the Kathy Sierra case the mention with some awkward bits filleted out.
> 
> Eg this kind of thing.
> 
> ...



Am I the only one who thinks Helen Lewis is disingenuous, mendacious and deliberately so?


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 17, 2014)

Nope


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## tufty79 (Oct 17, 2014)

Dp


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## killer b (Oct 17, 2014)

I think it's fair to say that a small minority of people read the likes of chomsky, and I reckon probably much less than did do say 30, 40 or 50 years ago, when left wing ideas has more of a base in the working class.

However, to blame this on the accessibility of the text is nonsense - in fact, one of the barriers to more people reading political texts is others propogating this idea that it's all dry, academic and complicated, and _not for the likes of us_.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 17, 2014)

I've only watched the manufacturing consent video on youtube, but it didn't come across as overly dry or technical


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## Rural (Oct 17, 2014)

Bakunin: 13472537 said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who thinks Helen Lewis is disingenuous, mendacious and deliberately so?


I thought the way she treated Sam ambreen by asking an *innocent* question, not privately, but so her many followers would see & jump in, was very disingenuous & undermining. I think this has all been discussed elsewhere on urban or this thread tho. But that was one thing that made me doubt hl's motives.


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## killer b (Oct 17, 2014)

One of the interesting things we heard about the Scottish independence referendum was that - magically - 'the man on the street' was somehow able to grasp the finer points of the nuanced political and economic arguments they were presented with - people in pubs were having informed debates about fiscal policy, international relations and so on.

IMO that shows that when he has some kind of ownership of the terms of the discussion and a stake in the outcome, perhaps he isn't so thick after all.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2014)

killer b said:


> Have you read any Chomsky newbie? He's pretty careful not to use obscure academic language - the exact opposite of what you say.


Yeah it's been some time since I read any Chomsky but I don't remember any of the books I've read being full of obscure words or academic jargon.


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## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

killer b said:


> I think it's fair to say that a small minority of people read the likes of chomsky, and I reckon probably much less than did do say 30, 40 or 50 years ago, when left wing ideas has more of a base in the working class.
> 
> However, to blame this on the accessibility of the text is nonsense - in fact, one of the barriers to more people reading political texts is others propogating this idea that it's all dry, academic and complicated, and _not for the likes of us_.



Right, so noticing that Chomksy is read by a minority is actually correct but shouldn't be said just in case someone finds it offputting...


killer b said:


> One of the interesting things we heard about the Scottish independence referendum was that - magically - 'the man on the street' was somehow able to grasp the finer points of the nuanced political and economic arguments they were presented with - people in pubs were having informed debates about fiscal policy, international relations and so on.
> 
> IMO that shows that when he has some kind of ownership of the terms of the discussion and a stake in the outcome, perhaps he isn't so thick after all.


and anyway amounts to calling the entire male Scottish population thick.

Come off it.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

All this _Chomsky is easy, accessible, common sense_ looks a lot like shorthand for the sort of intellectual** snobbery that goes _only a fool finds difficult what I find simple_. 

I'm hardly surprised that contributors to a fairly serious corner of a text based discussion board are good at understanding text based arguments. But is there really a widespread view that the spectrum of ability so obviously evident in sport, music, art or maths somehow doesn't apply to reading dense politics or philosophy? A denial that there is a privilege involved here? One that, like other privileges, works to the advantage of haves and creates a barrier for have-nots?

That unacknowledged privilege, the unconscious exclusion by insiders who backslap about how easy it is, is a far greater barrier to other people approaching politics than pointing out that what a professor writes isn't particularly obvious.


** 12 letters, but I'd suggest almost all native English speakers know what it means, even if they don't know one or want to know one.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 18, 2014)

Sorry but Chomsky is not easy or accessible at all, I can't read more than about a page of it. The problem with all academic writing or the vast majority of it is that you have to be deeply interested enough in the subject to collect the tools you need to be able to comprehend it, and even then it requires lots of time and concentration, I'm pretty sure I'm not thick but any lefties going on about how readable this or that academic writer is makes me feel stupid and disempowered tbh.

ETA: there are some good, and entertaining academic writers that can make me think about things differently, but thats because I like their style which is pretty subjective criteria. I don't think that makes them easy or accessible.


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> Right, so noticing that Chomksy is read by a minority is actually correct but shouldn't be said just in case someone finds it offputting...


not at all - denying he's read by a minority would be a nonsense. But the reasons he's read by a minority are not because his writing is dry, academic and complicated. It isn't. One of the reasons he's as widely read and admired as he is, is because of the clarity of his writing. 



> and anyway amounts to calling the entire male Scottish population thick.
> 
> Come off it.


I think I'm beginning to see your problem.



newbie said:


> All this _Chomsky is easy, accessible, common sense_ looks a lot like shorthand for the sort of intellectual** snobbery that goes _only a fool finds difficult what I find simple_.


whereas, your argument seems to be_ I struggle to comprehend the simplest of things, therefore all those other people - who can't be as clever as me - must do too._


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> and anyway amounts to calling the entire male Scottish population thick


What! How the fuck do you get that from KB's post?

Anyway Lo Siento's posted a Chomsky article, so can you give some examples of the obscure academic language that you claim he uses?


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

right, so it's that explicit is it?  You'd rather call me personally too stupid to understand "_the simplest of things"_ than deal with what I've actually said.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> Anyway Lo Siento's posted a Chomsky article, so can you give some examples of the obscure academic language that you claim he uses?



you want some sort of textual evaluation of his work?  Of course, that's sure to prove beyond any doubt that there's no such thing as disempowerment going on here.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2014)

No I want a couple of examples of obscure academic language form the piece Lo Siento linked to. Also slightly silly for a bloke who's moaning about complexity to make that into a request for a "textual evaluation".


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## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> right, so it's that explicit is it?  You'd rather call me personally too stupid to understand "_the simplest of things"_ than deal with what I've actually said.


I have dealt with what you've said. You seem to have struggled to comprehend what I've posted though - is my language too dry and academic too?


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

so that you can say _yeah kb was right you, personally, really are too stupid to understand simple things?_  How does that help?

why don't you address the point I made about art, maths and so on?


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

killer b said:


> I have dealt with what you've said. You seem to have struggled to comprehend what I've posted though - is my language too dry and academic too?


no you haven't.  You've made no attempt to deal with my points about intellectual snobbery and so on, merely keep asserting that because you admire his writing anyone- me - that finds it less than clear is obviously stupid.


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

But your points about intellectual snobbery rely on a misreading - either wilful or otherwise - of the posts people have made on this thread.


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## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

No they don't, they rely on an analysis that's laid out in what I've said.  It's not a misreading at all, that's simply the same sort of characterisation as any insider uses when someone identifies the privilege they use unconsciously.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> No I want a couple of examples of obscure academic language form the piece Lo Siento linked to. Also slightly hypocritical for a bloke who's moaning about complexity to make that into a request for a "textual evaluation".


and what?  get into a dull argument about individual words and/or Palestine or Russia.  No thanks. It wouldn't demonstrate anything worthwhile whether I find words, phrases, paragraphs or the whole thing unclear or not.  It's not whether or not I'm stupid that's at issue here.


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> No they don't, they rely on an analysis that's laid out in what I've said.  It's not a misreading at all, that's simply the same sort of characterisation as any insider uses when someone identifies the privilege they use unconsciously.


You've certainly misread all of my posts, to a comical degree in some cases. I don't feel particularly well disposed to thrash it out with you tbh, as I suspect you're doing it on purpose.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

doing what on purpose- identifying something you're finding uncomfortable?

tbh I'm finding the defensiveness a bit bizarre.  Has the blatantly obvious stuff I've been saying really never occurred to any of you clever folk that read and understand Professors?


ps I'll admit that #9771 was intended to be vaguely comical (and I'm pleased it worked  )


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm not finding it uncomfortable. I just disagree that the barrier to more people reading Chomsky is his dry academic language. Because his language isn't dry or academic, as you'd know if you'd read any of it.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 18, 2014)

I find Chomsky fairly tough going, not because he uses complex language, I don't think (it's been a while), but there's an awful lot of information in his text. I read the Fateful Triangle in my twenties and it was a slog, I wouldn't have had the capacity to read such a book when I was 14, I don't think, despite my 'intelligence'.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 18, 2014)

I have a couple of Chomsky books.  Chomsky on Anarchism which I've not read and Manufacturing Consent which I started but put down because it's quite dry and boringly written. The film of Manufacturing Consent is far more accessible.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 18, 2014)

But in a way this misses the point. What are the social conditions in which people can get together to tackle a book/text? Do people do this? Are there many political reading groups anymore?

I went to a theory seminar yesterday for my work/training and it was great. All three seminars that I've had this term, with just 4 of us and a seminar leader, have been transformative in terms of my understanding of the (difficult) texts.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 18, 2014)

Many people don't read Chomsky because they've never heard of him. I reckon.


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> But in a way this misses the point. What are the social conditions in which people can get together to tackle a book/text? Do people do this? Are there many political reading groups anymore?


This is what I'm trying to get at - the barriers to people reading political theory are little to do with the accessibility of the text IMO.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

killer b said:


> I'm not finding it uncomfortable. I just disagree that the barrier to more people reading Chomsky is his dry academic language. Because his language isn't dry or academic, as you'd know if you'd read any of it.


I have (tried to) read him, as I said up there somewhere.  But you're refusing to recognise that what you find simple or at least accessible other people find hard.   And that refusal creates a barrier, with you uncomfortably on the same side as the elite who frame debate, the ones for whom text and text based understanding are central to their being.  Wordsmiths like journalists, commentariat, lawyers, politicians, academics, novelists, historians and so on.  All rely on a similar skillset, the ability to read, understand and manipulate words. They're the ones who, by and large, define our horizons.  

People who lack that skillset, through nature or nurture, are disadvantaged, whatever other attributes they have.  See the mockery of the likes of Beckham for being inarticulate or, perhaps more importantly, the way the scientists fret that they can't communicate their ideas properly, the way technologists need writers to get across their innovations because the boffins themselves can't adequately find the words.  

Words are a specific skill- I can't for the life of me see why anyone seeks to deny that.


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2014)

Right - but as I was attempting to demonstrate with my post about the Scottish referendum, given sufficient motivation and opportunity people who normally probably wouldn't have bothered to read or understand fairly 'complex' political & economic arguments clearly can do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Sorry but Chomsky is not easy or accessible at all, I can't read more than about a page of it. The problem with all academic writing or the vast majority of it is that you have to be deeply interested enough in the subject to collect the tools you need to be able to comprehend it, and even then it requires lots of time and concentration, I'm pretty sure I'm not thick but any lefties going on about how readable this or that academic writer is makes me feel stupid and disempowered tbh.



Depends which of his books you read, Spanky. The ones that are taken from interviews with David Barsamian are "accessible", for example. They're not footnoted, they don't contain abstruse academic language, and they're a great feed-in to Chomsky's more "single issue" books. Even then he deliberately tries to limit his arguments to the immediate side of politics, rather than the academic.



> ETA: there are some good, and entertaining academic writers that can make me think about things differently, but thats because I like their style which is pretty subjective criteria. I don't think that makes them easy or accessible.



Accessibility is a pretty subjective criteria too, frankly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> right, so it's that explicit is it?  You'd rather call me personally too stupid to understand "_the simplest of things"_ than deal with what I've actually said.



It's a bit rich, you complaining about people not dealing with what you actually said, when you completely misrepresented me, as I illustrated in post #9762.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

you said 


ViolentPanda said:


> We must be reading different Noam Chomskys, as I've always found his socio-political work a marvel of clarity. I've read 8 of his books (I have another 2 on my "to read" pile - "The New Military Humanism" and "Imperial Ambitions"), and have always found his stuff relentlessly well-presented, easy to understand (unless you skim-read, in which case you deserve everything you get) and well-supported with references to sources.
> Your sentence above applies more to Will Self (I've read 4 books of his, so have a reasonable base for comparison  ) than Noam Chomsky.


to which the relevant part of my response was 


newbie said:


> You're the one that describes Chomsky as _"easy to understand (unless you skim-read, in which case you deserve everything you get)"_, as though entirely unable to identify your own privilege.  Fine, but just because you find something easy doesn't mean everyone does- you must have some area of your life that you know others take to like a fish to water but you can't deal with, surely?  Or are you somehow so perfect that doesn't apply?


you then you had what I though was the last word


ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not claiming that "everyone" might find Chomsky easy to understand. I said that *I've* always found his stuff easy to understand. You must have missed that in your rush to try and point-score.
> As for the rest of that paragraph, it reveals more about you than me.



so how am I misrepresenting you?  I've said that because you, personally, find him easy doesn't mean others do.  I don't see any misrepresentation there.  If there is one it was unintentional, unlike the snippy tone you've adopted.

If you think my identification of privilege is wrong then say so.


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

.

 changed me mind, hang on a sec


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

killer b said:


> Right - but as I was attempting to demonstrate with my post about the Scottish referendum, given sufficient motivation and opportunity people who normally probably wouldn't have bothered to read or understand fairly 'complex' political & economic arguments clearly can do.


I have no argument whatsoever with that, when motivated people can clearly understand all sorts of things they don't normally bother with.

Is there any evidence that those people read tracts by Professors before or during the debate?  Maybe they did, I don't know I wasn't in Scotland, but without evidence as to what gateway was in use there may be limited relevance to this conversation.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

'tract' is short for extract btw, what you are talking about is non fiction books.


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## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

is it?  didn't know that.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 18, 2014)

Funnily enough Chomsky actually makes a good point on this sort of discussion



> QUESTION: You've written about the way that professional ideologists and the mandarins obfuscate reality. And you have spoken -- in some places you call it a "Cartesian common sense" -- of the commonsense capacities of people. Indeed, you place a significant emphasis on this common sense when you reveal the ideological aspects of arguments, especially in contemporary social science. What do you mean by common sense? What does it mean in a society like ours? For example, you've written that within a highly competitive, fragmented society, it's very difficult for people to become aware of what their interests are. If you are not able to participate in the political system in meaningful ways, if you are reduced to the role of a passive spectator, then what kind of knowledge do you have? How can common sense emerge in this context?
> 
> *CHOMSKY: Well, let me give an example. When I'm driving, I sometimes turn on the radio and I find very often that what I'm listening to is a discussion of sports. These are telephone conversations. People call in and have long and intricate discussions, and it's plain that quite a high degree of thought and analysis is going into that. People know a tremendous amount. They know all sorts of complicated details and enter into far-reaching discussion about whether the coach made the right decision yesterday and so on. These are ordinary people, not professionals, who are applying their intelligence and analytic skills in these areas and accumulating quite a lot of knowledge and, for all I know, understanding. On the other hand, when I hear people talk about, say, international affairs or domestic problems, it's at a level of superficiality that's beyond belief. *
> 
> ...


 
I think Chomsky can be a bit patronising in regards to his opinions on spectator sports and the de-politicisation of people through interest in sport but otherwise I think he makes some good points here.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> is it?  didn't know that.


yeah its from church 'tracts'- a small leaflet/2page booklet typically an extract or two from the bible accompanied by an interpretation or what have you. an a pretty picture of the cross, or jesus holding a lamb etc


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> 'tract' is short for extract btw



My dictionary begs to differ.

*tract*, n, treatise or pamphlet, esp. a religious or moralistic one. [C15: from Latin _tractatus_ from _tractare_ to handle]

*extract*, n, something extracted, such as a part or passage from a book. [C15: from Latin _extractus_ drawn forth, from _extrahere_, from _trahere_ to drag]


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> My dictionary begs to differ.
> 
> *tract*, n, treatise or pamphlet, esp. a religious or moralistic one. [C15: from Latin _tractatus_ from _tractare_ to handle]
> 
> *extract*, n, something extracted, such as a part or passage from a book. [C15: from Latin _extractus_ drawn forth, from _extrahere_, from _trahere_ to drag]



see above- I was half right.

thing is to use it in its correct definition actually confuses newbies point. If as he/she says most people have niether the time nor ability to plough through dense works (leaving aside the 'is chomsky dense' argument), then a tract is EXACTLY what they would read in passing. iyswim


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## two sheds (Oct 18, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> I find Chomsky fairly tough going, not because he uses complex language, I don't think (it's been a while), but there's an awful lot of information in his text. I read the Fateful Triangle in my twenties and it was a slog, I wouldn't have had the capacity to read such a book when I was 14, I don't think, despite my 'intelligence'.



He does somewhere remark that if you're agreeing with the general consensus - say that israel is a plucky little country that is threatened by extinction from the powerful and evil palestinian terrorists - then a couple of sentences will do because everyone knows what you're talking about. 

If you however want to point out that israel is a hugely militarized society backed by the US and palestine has tiny military might in comparison - you have to give every piece of your reasoning and not miss out any key facts or people who buy into the propaganda model will just dismiss what you're saying out of hand. 

(To the best of my recollection, and my example of this rather than his - grateful for exact quote if anyone knows it.)


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> see above- I was half right.
> 
> thing is to use it in its correct definition actually confuses newbies point. If as he/she says most people have niether the time nor ability to plough through dense works (leaving aside the 'is chomsky dense' argument), then a tract is EXACTLY what they would read in passing. iyswim


A tract is _not_ an extract, and they have entirely different etymological roots.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> A tract is _not_ an extract, and they have entirely different etymological roots.




yes, you made that clear but the point is a tract is not the usage newbie was using- referring to a full text.


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## Bakunin (Oct 18, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> My dictionary begs to differ.
> 
> *tract*, n, treatise or pamphlet, esp. a religious or moralistic one. [C15: from Latin _tractatus_ from _tractare_ to handle]
> 
> *extract*, n, something extracted, such as a part or passage from a book. [C15: from Latin _extractus_ drawn forth, from _extrahere_, from _trahere_ to drag]


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> All this _Chomsky is easy, accessible, common sense_ looks a lot like shorthand for the sort of intellectual** snobbery that goes _only a fool finds difficult what I find simple_.
> 
> I'm hardly surprised that contributors to a fairly serious corner of a text based discussion board are good at understanding text based arguments. But is there really a widespread view that the spectrum of ability so obviously evident in sport, music, art or maths somehow doesn't apply to reading dense politics or philosophy? A denial that there is a privilege involved here? One that, like other privileges, works to the advantage of haves and creates a barrier for have-nots?
> 
> ...



So, just to get this straight: it's intellectual snobbery to say that most people, if they were inclined to read it, could comprehend Chomsky's work, but it's not intellectual snobbery to say that Chomsky's work is far too dense and complex for most people to understand?


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## agricola (Oct 18, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> So, just to get this straight: it's intellectual snobbery to say that most people, if they were inclined to read it, could comprehend Chomsky's work, but it's not intellectual snobbery to say that Chomsky's work is far too dense and complex for most people to understand?



I always thought even mentioning Chomsky's work was intellectual snobbery.


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## Buckaroo (Oct 18, 2014)

agricola said:


> I always thought even mentioning Chomsky's work was intellectual snobbery.


It takes discipline not to mention Chomsky.


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2014)

No-one referring to him as Chumpsky anymore then?


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## Buckaroo (Oct 18, 2014)

chilango said:


> No-one referring to him as Chumpsky anymore then?



No, cos that's Cheapsky.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 18, 2014)

If you think Chomsky's work is dense and complex, try Spinoza or Hegel.


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## two sheds (Oct 18, 2014)

chilango said:


> No-one referring to him as Chumpsky anymore then?



Nim Chimpsky and don't you forget it.


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## Buckaroo (Oct 18, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> If you think Chomsky's work is dense and complex, try Spinoza or Hegel.



It's easier when they're dead.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 18, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> It's easier when they're dead.


Why? Because you need a medium?


----------



## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

I


Lo Siento. said:


> So, just to get this straight: it's intellectual snobbery to say that most people, if they were inclined to read it, could comprehend Chomsky's work, but it's not intellectual snobbery to say that Chomsky's work is far too dense and complex for most people to understand?


well I've reread the post you quoted and I don't _think_ it says that, but if that's your reading then so be it.


----------



## Buckaroo (Oct 18, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Why? Because you need a medium?



You're pissing in the shower now mate.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> I
> 
> well I've reread the post you quoted and I don't _think_ it says that, but if that's your reading then so be it.



Well the former is all I've said in this thead, and I presume I was included in this accusation of intellectual snobbery.


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## newbie (Oct 18, 2014)

surely in the absence of evidence it's better to presume innocence?


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> yes, you made that clear but the point is a tract is not the usage newbie was using- referring to a full text.


A tract can be and very often is ‘a full text’.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

oh just piss off, the point is clear, you shouldn't call a whole book a tract because it isn't


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## brogdale (Oct 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh just piss off, the point is clear, you shouldn't call a whole book a tract because it isn't


 Used to be; often inter-changeable with tome.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh just piss off, the point is clear, you shouldn't call a whole book a tract because it isn't



Suck it up pilgrim, you got it wrong there is nothing wrong with getting something wrong but don't keep trying to bury it


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

i got the etymology wrong yes- I was going on an explanation I'd been told many years ago as a church kid asking 'why are these called tracts' and I admitted as much. But a tract in common usage is not a book- end of


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

any further responses on this subject will be met with the hand because the face aint listening *nose in air*


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

brogdale said:


> *Used to be*; often inter-changeable with tome.




so not now and today. I'm right and everyone else is wrong


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

ok maybe I was wrong but in a wider sense I am still right


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2014)

Just claim that you're finding all these replies proving you wrong "upsetting" and then put 'em on ignore. You win.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> so not now and today. I'm right and everyone else is wrong



I know Dotty...you do your best to lower the average Urbanite age and all that...but you should know better than argue etymology with the grey-backs


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## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2014)

chilango said:


> Just claim that you're finding all these replies proving you wrong "upsetting" and then put 'em on ignore. You win.




you are all triggering me ffs


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2014)

newbie said:


> and what?  get into a dull argument about individual words and/or Palestine or Russia.  No thanks. It wouldn't demonstrate anything worthwhile whether I find words, phrases, paragraphs or the whole thing unclear or not.  It's not whether or not I'm stupid that's at issue here.


It would demonstrate whether you're correct in your claim that Chomsky uses long or obscure words or academic jargon.


----------



## toggle (Oct 18, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> It would demonstrate whether you're correct in your claim that Chomsky uses long or obscure words or academic jargon.



there's enough of the nanswer to that question that is subjective. a lot of how penetrable a text seems is related to how much of the background ot it someone already come across  and whether ti's something they are personally interested in.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2014)

toggle said:


> there's enough of the nanswer to that question that is subjective. a lot of how penetrable a text seems is related to how much of the background ot it someone already come across  and whether ti's something they are personally interested in.



But those are all different issues to the one of I'm asking, where we can be more objective - does the author use obscure words? Is there a lot of academic jargon?, etc

I fully accept that there are other ways for a text to be inaccessible, things such as:
- how much background knowledge is required/assumed by the author
- the structuring of the piece, is the reader "draw in"
- the style/tone, is it engaging
- the complexity of the ideas discussed

Some of those are pretty subjective, e.g. the style/tone of the piece. I mean some people have said they find Chomsky's work dry, personally I don't see it (to me in a lot of his work, and the linked piece is a good example, there's a sort of black humour and underlying anger that IMO makes it anything but dry) but I not going to claim people are wrong on that score. But  I think anyone saying that Chomsky's political writings are inaccessible because of his vocabulary (which was newbie's original claim) is just plain wrong.


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2014)

You've read a lot of his work so it's pretty plain that for you there's no inaccessibility. You have the interest (or education) to analyse and list different factors involved in comprehending text, you've made it clear that this particular point matters to you and that you've made your mind up about it.  

So even if I had any interest in picking through your chosen article, which I don't, there's no way that would lead anywhere productive.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2014)

chilango said:


> Just claim that you're finding all these replies proving you wrong "upsetting" and then put 'em on ignore. You win.


Find a way to shoehorn in an accusation of racism, sexism, disablism or similar for double win.

Then tag all your abusers in a post and get the urban monothought clique to pile in, claiming that is in no way bullying behaviour.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm calling sam ambreen to be my counsel now


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## two sheds (Oct 19, 2014)

newbie said:


> So even if I had any interest in picking through your chosen article, which I don't, there's no way that would lead anywhere productive.



Yes, we wouldn't want to confuse the issue with facts.


----------



## newbie (Oct 19, 2014)

a proposition was put forward, it's been batted back and forth, assertion and counterassertion made, and the bones picked over.  If you believe the entire discussion stands or falls on the 'facts' of a specific 'objective' test based on that article then go ahead and prove it to your own satisfaction.  Anyone else wishing to do so can read the same article, reach their own conclusions.  

That really doesn't require my input. It's not my vocabulary or my comprehension that's at issue here yet the proposed test relies on me suggesting that some particular word or phrase is problematic, so providing another opportunity for people (many for whom wordsmithery is stock in trade) to say _we know what that means, it's simple, you must be stupid_.  Hiding to nothing sfaics.


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## killer b (Oct 19, 2014)

All this because you got caught out talking bollocks about something you haven't read. It would have been easier if you'd just held your hands up tbf.


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2014)

I've been reading bits & pieces the bloke's written for decades. For the umpteenth time the observation that an American Professor only works as a 'gateway' for a tiny minority of British teenagers isn't about me.


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## Bakunin (Oct 19, 2014)

two sheds said:


> Yes, we wouldn't want to confuse the issue with facts.



The commentariat seldom mix the two, after all.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2014)

Who is  behind this then? Odd (or maybe not so odd) concentration on hedley.

Safer Spaces Exposed


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Who is  behind this then? Odd (or maybe not so odd) concentration on hedley.
> 
> Safer Spaces Exposed


The truth is out there , somewhere


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 19, 2014)

*Molly CrabappleVerified account *‏@*mollycrabapple*  Oct 16
@*brassiest* @*translator_eli* these are drawings that I hope are iconic of the man who masterminded 9/11. pic.twitter.com/dtPcdrW1zQ





 

'>


 *Élise Hendrick* ‏@*translator_eli*  Oct 16
@*mollycrabapple* @*brassiest* Very Der Stürmer-esque. I'm not sure that racist caricatures are going to work to distance you from a Nazi.

... the response made me chuckle a bit, have to say. Crabapple defending herself from accusations that she glorified 'Weev' by painting him sympathetically, argues that she is an equal opportunities iconographer.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 19, 2014)

Long but rather telling examination of the kind of crap research Owen Jones is seemingly guilty of http://www.jeremy-duns.com/blog/2014/10/18/owen-jones-and-how-how-he-gets-away-with-it


----------



## killer b (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm not sure how much I like Duns, but he's very good at this stuff. His twitter feed is a constant source of joy.


----------



## rioted (Oct 19, 2014)

S☼I said:


> Long but rather telling examination of the kind of crap research Owen Jones is seemingly guilty of http://www.jeremy-duns.com/blog/2014/10/18/owen-jones-and-how-how-he-gets-away-with-it





> To clarify: of the £8bn of controlled export licences under review £7.75bn is for commercial equipment, mostly cryptographic software to supply Israel's mobile phone networks.


Because of course, the Israeli military have no use for cryptography.


----------



## Rural (Oct 19, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> *Molly CrabappleVerified account *‏@*mollycrabapple*  Oct 16
> @*brassiest* @*translator_eli* these are drawings that I hope are iconic of the man who masterminded 9/11. pic.twitter.com/dtPcdrW1zQ
> 
> 
> ...


Why is his beard pink when everyone knows he used L'Oréal no 3 brasilia


----------



## Rural (Oct 19, 2014)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure how much I like Duns, but he's very good at this stuff. His twitter feed is a constant source of joy.


Completely agree.  Don't think I agree with everything he stands for but like the way he exposes twats


----------



## Rural (Oct 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Who is  behind this then? Odd (or maybe not so odd) concentration on hedley.
> 
> Safer Spaces Exposed


I suspect it's seamus @ blac bloc on twitter & maybe ciaran.  U knew the ones involved in that casa thing last year. But idk for sure


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 19, 2014)

S☼I said:


> Long but rather telling examination of the kind of crap research Owen Jones is seemingly guilty of http://www.jeremy-duns.com/blog/2014/10/18/owen-jones-and-how-how-he-gets-away-with-it


It's a newspaper comment writer's standard of research basically, isn't it? They all basically do it, and if you write a book like that and you've got the kind of politics that attract significant numbers of detractors you're likely to get "Fisked".


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 19, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Who is  behind this then? Odd (or maybe not so odd) concentration on hedley.
> 
> Safer Spaces Exposed



it's like reading an MRA website.  self-entitled pricks.  no solidarity with abused women.  the right for men to say what they want and be protected from other people's opinions.  demanding a patriarchal standard of proof of allegations.  fuck em/


----------



## Rural (Oct 19, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's like MRA website.  self-entitled pricks.  no solidarity with abused women.  the right for men to say what they want and be protected from other people's opinions.  demanding a patriarchal standard of proof of allegations.  fuck em/


It has the usual accusations of "dividing the working class" as if other classes have less racism, sexism, etc. I find that really offensive & despise the idea that the WC is so riven with bigotted beliefs that any challenge to this behaviour threatens the whole movement.


----------



## co-op (Oct 19, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's like reading an MRA website.  self-entitled pricks.  no solidarity with abused women.  the right for men to say what they want and be protected from other people's opinions.  demanding a patriarchal standard of proof of allegations.  fuck em/



That's nothing like reading any MRA sites I've ever seen.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 20, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> self-entitled pricks.  no solidarity with abused women.  the right for men to say what they want and be protected from other people's opinions.  demanding a patriarchal standard of proof of allegations.  fuck em/


Mmm. merricky.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> *Molly CrabappleVerified account *‏@*mollycrabapple*  Oct 16
> @*brassiest* @*translator_eli* these are drawings that I hope are iconic of the man who masterminded 9/11. pic.twitter.com/dtPcdrW1zQ
> 
> 
> ...



Equal opportunities for gay hating, women oppressing , anti left reactionaries


----------



## J Ed (Oct 22, 2014)




----------



## Belushi (Oct 22, 2014)

I'll just retweet that to the Kurds in Kobane..


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2014)




----------



## J Ed (Oct 22, 2014)

Why are they bothering with those guns, don't they know about twitter and may-mays?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2014)

For all we know that dead beardie the HPG blokes are standing over might have seen one of taffboys memes and dropped dead.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 22, 2014)

She said 'we'. Not those brown poor people.


----------



## andysays (Oct 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> ...



Honestly, those Kurds are *so* last century.

I don't know why they don't follow Justine's advice and get themselves some decent memes. That would stop ISIS for sure...


----------



## andysays (Oct 22, 2014)

Guns don't kill people, memes do
Get yourself on Twitter, woo woo woo


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 22, 2014)

andysays said:


> Honestly, those Kurds are *so* last century.
> 
> I don't know why they don't follow Justine's advice and get themselves some decent memes. That would stop ISIS for sure...



I somehow think my grandfather, when rather busily engaged with the German, Italian and Japanese Armies, would have preferred to stick with rifle and bayonet, personally,


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 22, 2014)

_We shall fight on the Tumblr.  We shall fight on the Facebook groups.  We shall fight in the like and in the tweets.  We shall fight in the blogs.  We shall never surrender._


----------



## Superdupastupor (Oct 22, 2014)

this meme kills fascists


----------



## J Ed (Oct 22, 2014)

*retweeted by Ellie*


----------



## J Ed (Oct 22, 2014)

Fuck your data, analysis and research, we really, really reckon something


----------



## fogbat (Oct 22, 2014)

I have to agree with Ellie. Obviously I'm totally not racist, but what about other people less stable, less educated, less middle-class than me? Builders or blacks for example.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

> @PennyRed: I've dyed my hair back to its natural colour temporarily. Partly because of street harassment.



Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Nobody knows but Jesus


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 23, 2014)

Do you want to read an article about Renee Zellweger's face?  You're in luck!

The Guardian has at least four:
_
Nothing's wrong with Renee Zellweger's face. There's something wrong with us (by Jennifer Gerson Uffalussy)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c6ui

_Renée Zellweger's face is her brand – a new look will change her career beyond recognition (by Steve Rose)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74v

_Renée Zellweger's new look due to 'happy, healthy lifestyle', not surgery (by Xan Brooks)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74w

_It’s not unreasonable to ask where the real Renée Zellweger has gone (by Viv Groskop)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74x

The Independent has at least five:

_Renee Zellweger looks unrecognisable in these photos (by Christopher Hooton)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74y

_The facepalm that was coverage of Renee Zellweger's face (by Dina Rickman)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74z

_Renee Zellweger's real crime has been to age in an industry that prizes women's youth over humanity (by Amanda Hess)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74f

_The reactions to Renee Zellweger's face say more about us than about her (by Emma Gannon)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74g

_Renee Zellweger on plastic surgery: 'I'm living a fulfilling life and I'm thrilled that perhaps it shows' (by Ella Alexander)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74h

The Telegraph has at least six:

_Renee Zellweger: what has happened to her face? (by Anita Singh)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74r

_Renee Zellweger: my face looks different because I'm at peace (by Anita Singh)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74q

_Renee Zellweger’s face: why are we so obsessed? (by Olivia Goldhill)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74p

_Are men to blame for the plastic surgery obsession? (by Jake Wallis Simons)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74n

_Celebrities like Renee Zellweger face huge pressure to have plastic surgery (by Myles Burke)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74m

_Renée Zellweger: why does her face look so different? (by Victoria Lambert)_

http://www.donotlink.com/c74k

Years ago if you wanted to read that sort of news and comment you'd have to buy Heat magazine.  However, now you have been saved that embarrassment by fourteen people writing for Britain's "quality" newspapers and their editors who presumably said "Can you bash out a thousand words about Renee Zellweger's face in an hour?" and were not told to fuck off.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 23, 2014)

Renee Zellweger has a face now!


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
> Nobody knows but Jesus


Dying your hair back is a little bit communism


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> Do you want to read an article about Renee Zellweger's face?  You're in luck!
> 
> The Guardian has at least four:
> _
> ...





Belushi said:


> Renee Zellweger has a face now!


News to me


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
> Nobody knows but Jesus


I think complaining about street harassment is ok, isn't it? Seems an odd thing to be picking her up on.


----------



## PoorButNotAChav (Oct 23, 2014)

Rural said:


> News to me



It's news to me too.  I was reading about how the Department for Work and Pensions is classifying thousands of people with degenerative conditions as being fit to work in the future and therefore they will receive less money, are threatened with sanctions if they fail to attend Work-Related Activity Group sessions and may lose their benefits after a year.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...te-no-possibility-of-improvement-9811910.html

However, this obviously isn't as important as Renee Zellweger's face which is why editors of Britain's national newspapers throw three hundred pounds a time at writers who are more interested in Renee Zellweger's face than the welfare of thousands of people suffering from Multiple Sclerosis, Spinal Muscular Atrophy, Parkinson’s Disease, Cystic Fibrosis and Rheumatoid Arthritis.


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

You know how newspapers work don't you? Especially now no-one buys them?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Mmm. merricky.



But without the eco-touchy-feely bits.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> For all we know that dead beardie the HPG blokes are standing over might have seen one of taffboys memes and dropped dead.



He's not dead. he's just collapsed in exhausted laughter after reading Laurie Penney's latest whine about how oppressed she is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2014)

PoorButNotAChav said:


> _We shall fight on the Tumblr.  We shall fight on the Facebook groups.  We shall fight in the like and in the tweets.  We shall fight in the blogs.  We shall never surrender._



You forgot "_unless they attack us with physical violence, in which case we'll give up without so much as a punch thrown, let alone a grenade"_


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

We shall monetize our hotness, whatever the cost may be.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 23, 2014)

I barely knew where to post this horror, but here is the Guardian Commentariat Convergence to beat them all: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/russell-brand-revolution-book-panel-verdict
And pretty much every word is entirely fatuous (Emma Howard comes out best), commenting on something utterly fatuous. The whole thing reads like a satire of the guardian.


----------



## co-op (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> You know how newspapers work don't you? Especially now no-one buys them?



Fair enough but at least part of the reason so many people have stopped buying them is because they are so full of trivial shite. I can't believe how rubbish they are when I pick up a broadsheet now.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> I think complaining about street harassment is ok, isn't it? Seems an odd thing to be picking her up on.



Be interested to know what form this harassment takes tbh


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

I've no doubt it takes a similar form to the street harassment that's depressingly familiar to the vast majority of young women. Seriously, why this?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

Aye Step, why this?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

Both my daughters ( and my partners daughters) experience of street harassment wouldn't register someone commenting on the colour of their hair tbh and certainly wouldn't a) make them change the colour or b) tweet about it.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

Anyway street harassment is only the partial reason


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

ok. well, whatever the details, I think it's at least a tactical mistake for a middle aged man to be criticising a young woman's complaints about street harassment.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> ok. well, whatever the details, I think it's at least a tactical mistake for a middle aged man to be criticising a young woman's complaints about street harassment.



It might be an even bigger tactical mistake to dismiss a criticism based on the identity of the critic, rather than the content/the detail of their criticism.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> ok. well, whatever the details, I think it's at least a tactical mistake for a middle aged man to be criticising a young woman's complaints about street harassment.



Middle aged able bodied heterosexual tall white male if you don't mind.check that out for privilege .


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Middle aged able bodied heterosexual tall white male if you don't mind.check that out for privilege .


 of course you are. you're posting in the urban75 politics forum.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Middle aged able bodied heterosexual tall white male if you don't mind.check that out for privilege .



Next you'll be telling us you're employed and securely housed...you bastard!

In privelegded solidarity - Louis MacNeice


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It might be an even bigger tactical mistake to dismiss a criticism based on the identity of the critic, rather than the content/the detail of their criticism.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


This is a fair point. In this case I think its a mistake though.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> This is a fair point. In this case I think its a mistake though.



Yep kb I was making a general point rather defending Steps particular contribution...which I'm still undecided about (priveledged fence sitter that I am).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> This is a fair point. In this case I think its a mistake though.


Ok I will get the girls to have a pop at her on twitter if that's alright with you


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm just not sure why it's worthy of a pop, on the tiny amount of detail you can glean from that tweet?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Next you'll be telling us you're employed and securely housed...you bastard!
> 
> In privelegded solidarity - Louis MacNeice


Just taken redundancy, the house is ok though, hopefully might find out if I have sold it today.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> I'm just not sure why it's worthy of a pop, on the tiny amount of detail you can glean from that tweet?




Fortune favours the brave killer


----------



## Belushi (Oct 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


>




Who can she mean? People like her? People who read the Guardian? 

Or people not like her, poorer, less upper middle class maybe..


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> I've no doubt it takes a similar form to the street harassment that's depressingly familiar to the vast majority of young women. Seriously, why this?


Do u really think LP is harassed EVERY time she goes out cos she had dyed her hair? Is Boston so unused to ppl with coloured hair? ? Hardly unusual these days. And why post she's dyed it back if not for more,  supposedly unwanted, attention


----------



## The Pale King (Oct 23, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Who can she mean? People like her? People who read the Guardian?
> 
> Or people not like her, poorer, less upper middle class maybe..



Yep. A lot of people 'latently racist'. Not Ellie or her mates though, they're the enlightened few, the 'secular priesthood' (good ol' Chomsky).


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Middle aged able bodied heterosexual tall white male if you don't mind.check that out for privilege .


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

Rural said:


> Do u really think LP is harassed EVERY time she goes out cos she had dyed her hair? Is Boston so unused to ppl with coloured hair? ? Hardly unusual these days. And why post she's dyed it back if not for more,  supposedly unwanted, attention


 I haven't the faintest Idea, and nor do I think it's something worth speculating about, and certainly not something to attack her about.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

Rural said:


> Do u really think LP is harassed EVERY time she goes out cos she had dyed her hair? Is Boston so unused to ppl with coloured hair? ? Hardly unusual these days. And why post she's dyed it back if not for more,  supposedly unwanted, attention



We don't have to parse everything she says for ill intent, do we? A society that can produce bullshit like GamerGate is quite capable of producing arseholes who'll catcall a woman for her hairstyle.



The39thStep said:


> Middle aged able bodied heterosexual tall white male if you don't mind.check that out for privilege .



Able bodied. . . _for now._


----------



## J Ed (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> We don't have to parse everything she says for ill intent, do we? A society that can produce bullshit like GamerGate is quite capable of producing arseholes who'll catcall a woman for her hairstyle.



Fair number of gamergate weirdos from the UK as well


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Fair number of gamergate weirdos from the UK as well



Quite. On the subject of US weirdoes, when I taught at the "Dumb Blonde School" I had a class featuring a 'horsey set' girl and a goth chick. . . the former had a US passport I remember her telling her gothic colleague that she would, in fact, experience hassle if she walked down the street in the US. . .


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Just taken redundancy, the house is ok though, hopefully might find out if I have sold it today.



Sorry to hear about the redundancy; good luck with the house.

Cheers and take care - Louis MacNeice


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> We don't have to parse everything she says for ill intent, do we? A society that can produce bullshit like GamerGate is quite capable of producing arseholes who'll catcall a woman for her hairstyle.
> 
> 
> 
> Able bodied. . . _for now._


Same goes for the middle age as well.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Sorry to hear about the redundancy; good luck with the house.
> 
> Cheers and take care - Louis MacNeice



Thanks Louis.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Quite. On the subject of US weirdoes, when I taught at the "Dumb Blonde School" I had a class featuring a 'horsey set' girl and a goth chick. . . the former had a US passport I remember her telling her gothic colleague that she would, in fact, experience hassle if she walked down the street in the US. . .



My American OH says that catcalling is much worse in the US than here. I'm inclined to believe our Laurie on this one.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 23, 2014)

Buzzfeed or Clickhole?


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Quite. On the subject of US weirdoes, when I taught at the "Dumb Blonde School" I had a class featuring a 'horsey set' girl and a goth chick. . . the former had a US passport I remember her telling her gothic colleague that she would, in fact, experience hassle if she walked down the street in the US. . .



Is that the same place you made a student cry?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Is that the same place you made a student cry?



No, that was Brummergem.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Is that the same place you made a student cry?



We've all made students cry...haven't we?

Apologies in advance - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> We've all made students cry...haven't we?
> 
> Apologies in advance - Louis MacNeice



Yes, but not necessarily by reading them our poetry.

Apathetic bloody planet.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 23, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> We've all made students cry...haven't we?
> 
> Apologies in advance - Louis MacNeice



Never been to university.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Never been to university.



You don't need to go to university to make students cry, silly!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Never been to university.



You don't have to go to university to make a student cry; it just gives you more opportunities.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

There was a Student Grant strip in Viz which ended with him battered to a bloody pulp ("I took a term of law, and I happen to know that what you are doing is illegal"), but it's not on the net. So you'll just have to use your imaginations.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You don't need to go to university to make students cry, silly!



You need to in order to lecture at one, though.

You know what I think about the brats, but what did she do to cause you to go into incredible hulk mode?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> You need to in order to lecture at one, though.
> 
> You know what I think about the brats, but what did she do to cause you to go into incredible hulk mode?



They kept giving me one-word answers to questions, and I was reduced to thumping the desk with my fist and shouting "SENTENCES! SENTENCES! YOU HAVE TO REPLY TO ME WITH FULL SENTENCES!"


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> They kept giving me one-word answers to questions, and I was reduced to thumping the desk with my fist and shouting "SENTENCES! SENTENCES! YOU HAVE TO REPLY TO ME WITH FULL SENTENCES!"



Whatever.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> They kept giving me one-word answers to questions, and I was reduced to thumping the desk with my fist and shouting "SENTENCES! SENTENCES! YOU HAVE TO REPLY TO ME WITH FULL SENTENCES!"


Why?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Why?



Because I DEMAND IT.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> They kept giving me one-word answers to questions, and I was reduced to thumping the desk with my fist and shouting "SENTENCES! SENTENCES! YOU HAVE TO REPLY TO ME WITH FULL SENTENCES!"


Bof!


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 23, 2014)

emanymton said:


> Why?



No transitional soundbytes for Idris, its full sentences or nothing.


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

whatevs.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 23, 2014)

...


----------



## emanymton (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Because I DEMAND IT.


OK


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Quite. On the subject of US weirdoes, when I taught at the "Dumb Blonde School" I had a class featuring a 'horsey set' girl and a goth chick. . . the former had a US passport I remember her telling her gothic colleague that she would, in fact, experience hassle if she walked down the street in the US. . .


Do they not have goths in us? I don't see them very often in uk now,  hadn't thought of us. That's if lp's a goth or similar?  Idk


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> I haven't the faintest Idea, and nor do I think it's something worth speculating about, and certainly not something to attack her about.


Maybe if she concentrates more on her hair & less on her role as voice of anarchist revolution she'll stop offending so many ppl.  Tho I don't think it went so well for her last time she wrote an article on her hair.


----------



## fogbat (Oct 23, 2014)

It's just irrelevant. Plenty to criticise her for, but fucking hair? As a response to harassment?


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

Rural said:


> Maybe if she concentrates more on her hair & less on her role as voice of anarchist revolution she'll stop offending so many ppl.  Tho I don't think it went so well for her last time she wrote an article on her hair.


yeah, she shouldn't bother her pretty little head about serious things like the revolution.


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> yeah, she shouldn't bother her pretty little head about serious things like the revolution.


I don't care what she does with her hair,  just fed up with another in the long line of posts where lp claims to b victim of extreme circumstances. Maybe I'm being too mean to her, I'm finding her really annoying lately.


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't think being the subject of street harassment is an extreme circumstance particularly. Depressingly mundane, in fact.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 23, 2014)

Rural said:


> I don't care what she does with her hair,  just fed up with another in the long line of posts where lp claims to b victim of extreme circumstances. Maybe I'm being too mean to her, I'm finding her really annoying lately.



You could always unfollow her. 

TBH I have to agree with killer b here. And I think it undermines the claims made on this thread that it's all about the politics when every single thing she says is on here to be pointed at.


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> I don't think being the subject of street harassment is an extreme circumstance particularly. Depressingly mundane, in fact.


I think claiming ur harassed every single time u leave the house cos of ur hair is extreme. No sadly Street harassment isn't rare.


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

Has she claimed that?


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You could always unfollow her.
> 
> TBH I have to agree with killer b here. And I think it undermines the claims made on this thread that it's all about the politics when every single thing she says is on here to be pointed at.


I don't follow her,  I know her irl & so do lots of my pals.  So altho I try to avoid her twitter my tl does get ppl talking about what she posts at times.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 23, 2014)

@PennyRed: I've dyed my hair back to its natural colour temporarily. Partly because of street harassment.

Nothing about 'every time I leave the house.'


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

killer b said:


> Has she claimed that?


I will try to find the tweet


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> @PennyRed: I've dyed my hair back to its natural colour temporarily. Partly because of street harassment.
> 
> Nothing about 'every time I leave the house.'


That's not the tweet I am trying to find


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

I call bullshit RT @PennyRed: @nomez_7 @swafieldst people yelling at me in the street every day, each time I walk between home and work.


This is the tweet  sorry I can't embed it properly on this phone


----------



## Rural (Oct 23, 2014)

Rural said:


> I call bullshit RT @PennyRed: @nomez_7 @swafieldst people yelling at me in the street every day, each time I walk between home and work.
> 
> 
> This is the tweet  sorry I can't embed it properly on this phone


I didn't write the "I call bullshit" bit,  that was someone else replying to lp


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 23, 2014)

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/09/30/hollaback-boston-state-of-our-streets-survey/


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 23, 2014)

i doubt she gets it every single time she leaves the house though.  unless of course, everyone in boston already knows her by sight.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 23, 2014)

A bit of exaggeration in a tweet isn't exactly the Hitler diaries.


----------



## killer b (Oct 23, 2014)

quite. followers of me on facebook might notice that yesterday I claimed to have broken my spine in the pit last time I saw the Subhumans. _I didn't break my spine in the pit last time I saw the Subhumans._


----------



## fogbat (Oct 23, 2014)

Clearly a slight exaggeration for emphasis. I bet it can feel like _every fucking time _.


----------



## Rural (Oct 24, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> A bit of exaggeration in a tweet isn't exactly the Hitler diaries.


I dont think it is comparable.


----------



## Rural (Oct 24, 2014)

QuoTE="fogbat, post: 13489084, member: 20505"]Clearly a slight exaggeration for emphasis. I bet it can feel like _every fucking time _.[/QUOTE]
Dont think its that clear myself.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 24, 2014)

Oh for fuck's sake. Attack her for the gaping holes in her politics, not because she posted a slightly mememe tweet about dyeing your hair an unnatural colour attracting unwanted attention  _seriously._


----------



## FNG (Oct 24, 2014)

FFS Its hardly suprising she feels a bit unsafe being subjected to abuse living in a new city halfway round the world from friends and family . Castigating her for expressing those fears through the medium she presumably finds enabling is to my eyes wankerish.


----------



## Rural (Oct 24, 2014)

Didn't see anyone having a go at her for feeling unsafe.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 24, 2014)

Anyway... How's this for a bit of quality sleb-on-sleb snarking?


----------



## JimW (Oct 25, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Anyway... How's this for a bit of quality sleb-on-sleb snarking?



Amateur, he should have cobbled together a short pamphlet out of his previously published columns full of made-up interviews.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 25, 2014)

or do a frankie boyle and just basicaly write down all your used up material in time for a christmas book, thieving cunt.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2014)

Our betters are having a barney:

The CUSU Women’s Campaign has spoken out against the invitation of Caroline Criado-Perez to speak at the ‘Women of the World’ (WOW) Festival [...]

The Women’s Campaign wrote an open letter to the organiser of the event, describing Criado-Perez as a “totally inappropriate and offensive candidate”.

In a statement signed by the entire Women’s Campaign committee and Sarah Brown, former Cambridge City Councillor, they claimed that Criado-Perez holds views that “harm and exclude trans people, especially women”...Criado-Perez is also accused of having a “dismal” record on race and having beliefs which “privilege” non-transgender women [...]

In an email to the Women’s Campaign obtained exclusively by Varsity, Criado-Perez described herself as “deeply hurt and saddened”...She also denied the allegations of transphobia levelled at her by the Women’s Campaign, claiming that she “stand with trans women against the male violence that we all face”.

Criado-Perez also elaborated on her “specific objections” to the term 'cis', primarily “the need to be able to specifically address the discrimination faced by women who have been raised as girls since birth, as well the need to not present this oppression as privilege by mixing these women with their oppressor class – men, who certainly do benefit from having been born and raised as boys. I believe that cis does this by mixing "cis women" together with "cis men."" [...]

Criado-Perez invited the Women’s Campaign to meet with her in order to identify her stance on specific issues that have “made them feel uncomfortable”. It is not clear yet whether the Women’s Campaign have accepted her offer [...]​
http://www.varsity.co.uk/news/7663

My head hurts.

This is droll, though:

The Women’s Campaign were also disappointed not to have been invited to the WOW event, describing their exclusion as “bizarre”. Committee members cited both their “*pioneering schemes*" and "*ideas that the University gains public approval from*” as reasons for their inclusion in the event.​


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2014)

killer b said:


> quite. followers of me on facebook might notice that yesterday I claimed to have broken my spine in the pit last time I saw the Subhumans. _I didn't break my spine in the pit last time I saw the Subhumans._



Only because you refused to go in the pit, in case you scuffed your shoes.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 25, 2014)

Rural said:


> Didn't see anyone having a go at her for feeling unsafe.



Exactly .


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 25, 2014)

it should be noted that the ideas harmful to transpeople are nothing more than asking if simply claiming to be a woman is enough to considered a woman, and suggesting that if womens spaces are open to any man simply on the basis of his claim to be a woman then these spaces aren't womens spaces, IIRC.


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 25, 2014)

I've had no internet for weeks, so catching up on Weevgate, but WTF is this shit? Look what Crabapple favourited.


----------



## andysays (Oct 25, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I've had no internet for weeks, so catching up on Weevgate, but WTF is this shit? Look what Crabapple favourited...





> the piece also says "when she was still a nude model no one could have predicted she'd one day be taken seriously as a political artist"...



Whereas now she's *totally* taken seriously.

Oh, no, hang on, she's actually *not*, is she??!? And with her ongoing fawning over weev, that's hardly any surprise...


----------



## Ole (Oct 26, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Oh for fuck's sake. Attack her for the gaping holes in her politics, not because she posted a slightly mememe tweet about dyeing your hair an unnatural colour attracting unwanted attention  _seriously._





That's not the fucking context is it? Looking at the last few pages it looks like folk are being snidely attacked for questioning the story of a fucking infamous bluffer.


----------



## killer b (Oct 26, 2014)

Who's being snide? Get to fuck.


----------



## FNG (Oct 26, 2014)

> The39thStep said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly .
> ...


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

I didn't expect my post to cause such a stir, i really didnt think id been a wanker. All I meant was, which has been said many times on this forum, I don't think lp is telling the truth, rather she is crying sexism in much the same way she claims oppression in various ways which have been proved to be either complete lies or appropriation of things that have happened to others, sometimes IMO, more oppressed groups. It seems to me that sometimes any criticism of her is met with cries of .....list, putting herself in the position of victim & painting others as bullies/oppressors when that is not always the case. I'm not saying she does this with every single thing, more that she's the sort of person who'd rather climb a tree to tell a lie than stand on the ground and tell the truth.

There have been many, many pages on this forum referring to the many whoppers she's told & been caught out in. They are still there for anyone to see. That doesn't mean I dont think she gets ANY harassment or trolling. As I've said b4 the best I can say to her is good luck with ur career, cos I know she has actually worked hard to get where she is. I just wish she wasn't the voice of revolution/anarchy/the far left, whatever role she & mainstream media sets herself up in. cos she is damaging to the activist movement.

Maybe u don't think she is particularly untruthful, maybe she isn't more than most mainstream journals. Could b I expect more from her cos of the position she claims to be representing. Anyway I've clearly upset some of her supporters here, from what has been said. I have felt here b4, tho not while talking about lp, that Ive been argued with for things I haven't said. Maybe swearing at ppl & being aggressive is what passes for "robust debate". I don't think so.


----------



## killer b (Oct 27, 2014)

her supporters, eh? I thought I was the one who was being snide?


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

post: 13495861 said:
			
		

> her supporters, eh? I thought I was the one who was being snide?


Why is that snide? It is not unreasonable to say she has supporters. Actually she has lots. More than critics id say. Also I did not say u were snide, sorry that u think I am.


----------



## killer b (Oct 27, 2014)

On this thread? where are they?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 27, 2014)

its not implausible that she's been given shit for her hair. You can get called cunt to your face anywhere from kettering to kowloon for having unusual hair. In a harvard district, as a young woman? Come on. It happens.


----------



## killer b (Oct 27, 2014)

All anyone is saying here is that it's a fruitless - counterproductive in fact - angle of attack. This argument is in itself a perfect demonstration of why.


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

killer b said:


> On this thread? where are they?


Ppl Have defended her,  not just this time but in the past on this thread. U can re-read it to find their names. Imo she has many supporters, tho not many necessarily on this thread. But she had not gone undefended.


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its not implausible that she's been given shit for her hair. You can get called cunt to your face anywhere from kettering to kowloon for having unusual hair. In a harvard district, as a young woman? Come on. It happens.


Yes it does happen.  Frequently.  I was just meaning that every time she leaves her house was another stretching of my belief anyway.  In a long line of stretching. I didn't think it would b  big deal as this subject has been discussed b4. Really didn't mean it to go on so long.


----------



## killer b (Oct 27, 2014)

You said you've upset her supporters_ here._ Who are they?


----------



## FNG (Oct 27, 2014)

> Anyway I've clearly upset some of her supporters here,



I'm far from being a supporter of her, I've barely skimmed more than a couple of her articles,



> I just wish she wasn't the voice of revolution/anarchy/the far left, whatever role she & mainstream media sets herself up in. cos she is damaging to the activist movement.



No she is not her name wouldn't even register with the people i live and work with. And if you think anything she could say or write in anyway damage" the cause" or more importantly and accurately the causes you align yourself with i feel sad for you son,cause i got 99 problems and LP aint one


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## newbie (Oct 27, 2014)

Rural said:


> I just wish she wasn't the voice of revolution/anarchy/the far left, whatever role she & mainstream media sets herself up in. cos she is damaging to the activist movement.


is there an activist movement? 
is that a good thing?
does her position or her journalism damage it?


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

killer b said:


> You said you've upset her supporters_ here._ Who are they?


He r supporters as in ppl who have stuck up for her when she is criticised.  U can re-read the thread going back months if u want a list. Not sure why u want me to "name names" When u can read.  Just cos ppl have defended her in some things on this thread does not mean I'm accusing them of being diehard lp fans.


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

FNG said:


> I'm far from being a supporter of her, I've barely skimmed more than a couple of her articles,
> 
> 
> 
> No she is not her name wouldn't even register with the people i live and work with. And if you think anything she could say or write in anyway damage" the cause" or more importantly and accurately the causes you align yourself with i feel sad for you son,cause i got 99 problems and LP aint one


She is as far as msm & many ppl r concerned.  I don't think she is either but this is the role she has taken up/had bestowed on her by msm. The damage she does to activist movements was discussed thoroughly earlier on this thread & I don't want to just repeat it all.  It's a long thread & maybe u haven't seen the parts I'm referring to.  Glad she's not a problem for u & ur pals.


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

newbie said:


> is there an activist movement?
> is that a good thing?
> does her position or her journalism damage it?


Yes I believe there are activist Movements.  I think they r a good thing. Her damage to these movements was discussed thoroughly imo earlier on this thread. I'm not going to repeat it all. Sorry if u missed it,  I know this is quite a long thread to wade thru.


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## killer b (Oct 27, 2014)

Rural said:


> He r supporters as in ppl who have stuck up for her when she is criticised.  U can re-read the thread going back months if u want a list. Not sure why u want me to "name names" When u can read.  Just cos ppl have defended her in some things on this thread does not mean I'm accusing them of being diehard lp fans.


you're the one who made a snide comment about upsetting the LP supporters on here. I'm asking you to back that up, as I think you're misrepresenting the view of most who've expressed discomfort about particular lines of attack. We've all been pretty clear, so you're either pretty dense or doing this on purpose. Which is it?


----------



## Rural (Oct 27, 2014)

killer b said:


> you're the one who made a snide comment about upsetting the LP supporters on here. I'm asking you to back that up, as I think you're misrepresenting the view of most who've expressed discomfort about particular lines of attack. We've all been pretty clear, so you're either pretty dense or doing this on purpose. Which is it?


I wasn't being snide!  Idk why u keep insisting i was.  What is wrong with saying ppl have defended her? I have clearly said I'm not attacking her for her hair & saying I am is misrepresenting my words. I think I have been clear & been attacked for a line of thought that I wasn't saying.  Ok ur right I'm doing it deliberately or I'm too dense.  I won't b posting here again so u can breathe a sigh of relief.  There are other things I'd have like to discuss such as el ahrairah's  comment about trans ppl but I can't seem to get u to leave the LP thing & it s bogging down the thread. I've been sworn at, taken in bad faith & dug out about this.


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## The39thStep (Oct 27, 2014)

Partially


----------



## rioted (Oct 27, 2014)

Rural said:


> I've been sworn at, taken in bad faith & dug out about this.


It's why some people are here! They're not after debate or reasoned arguement: they're after a fight.


----------



## andysays (Oct 27, 2014)

Rural said:


> *Her supporters as in ppl who have stuck up for her when she is criticised*.  U can re-read the thread going back months if u want a list. Not sure why u want me to "name names" When u can read.  Just cos ppl have defended her in some things on this thread does not mean I'm accusing them of being diehard lp fans.



In that case, I think you've misunderstood what some people are saying.

It's not that people are actually defending LP or supporting her in everything (anything) she says or does, it's more that they are challenging you choosing to criticise her on this particular (trivial and personal) issue, which looks like a personal attack for the sake of it rather than a substantive attack on her politics or her negative contribution to the overall debate.

I had this distinction pointed out to me a while back when I made some sneery comment about the sound of her voice, or something along those lines, and I thought it was a valid one, so I took it on board. No one is saying you shouldn't criticise LP (or anyone else) on substantive issues, and I'm sure the chance to do so will be along again soon.


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## weepiper (Oct 27, 2014)

It's all far too close to home if you're female and ever tried to explain what street harassment's like and had it minimised by people who don't want to believe it. Just don't go there. Find something else to attack her over if you must. I actually don't care whether she's telling the truth or not.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 27, 2014)

andysays said:


> In that case, I think you've misunderstood what some people are saying.
> 
> It's not that people are actually defending LP or supporting her in everything (anything) she says or does, it's more that they are challenging you choosing to criticise her on this particular (trivial and personal) issue, which looks like a personal attack for the sake of it rather than a substantive attack on her politics or her negative contribution to the overall debate.
> 
> I had this distinction pointed out to me a while back when I made some sneery comment about the sound of her voice, or something along those lines, and I thought it was a valid one, so I took it on board. No one is saying you shouldn't criticise LP (or anyone else) on substantive issues, and I'm sure the chance to do so will be along again soon.



Agreed.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It's all far too close to home if you're female and ever tried to explain what street harassment's like and had it minimised by people who don't want to believe it. Just don't go there. Find something else to attack her over if you must. I actually don't care whether she's telling the truth or not.


This, pretty much.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 29, 2014)

Any _known faces_ from our New York _list_ at the dinner party near the end of this video?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2014)

Have discovered that New Statesman pay 12p a word.

That person has a piece in that mag attacking brand right now as well - didn't count the words - looks about a 1000, so a hundred quid?:

Stuff your revolution if it doesn’t include treating women as people



> Russell Brand, clown that he is, is taken seriously by an awful lot of young men who see any criticism of the cartoon messiah’s misogyny as a derail from “the real issues” (whatever they are). The fans claim they love Brand despite the fact that he talks about women as poisoned birds of paradise, sucubus-like vultures or material accoutrements of wealth (“Are you reading this on a yacht, through your Ray-Bans, with, I dunno, a pair of glistening Russian sisters,” Brand asks his implicitly male reader at the start of his atrocious Revolution). I think the fans are dishonest: the sexism is part of the sell. If you know what power feels like, even if you have ever so little of it, how many people could commit to a new order with none at all?


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Have discovered that New Statesman pay 12p a word.
> 
> That person has a piece in that mag attacking brand right now as well - didn't count the words - looks about a 1000, so a hundred quid?:
> 
> Stuff your revolution if it doesn’t include treating women as people



to be honest I hate Russell Brand and I'd agree with a lot of that, except a lot of women also like Russell Brand


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Have discovered that New Statesman pay 12p a word.



She doesn't explicitly state that the _NS_ pays 12p/word. Could be any of the outlets she writes for, including the _Guardian_ (which despite a house agreement to pay £310.68/1,000 words for print only pays £90 for “commissioned or ‘pick of the day’” posts, with reports of CiF or blog posts of around 400-600 words earning just £85. At the lower end of that scale that would amount to approximately 12p/word.

laptop will know more about Tightarse Alan's regime of skinflintery.


----------



## rekil (Nov 4, 2014)

This proper petit booj rubbish was probably done for free. Laurie's off on international duty, and apparently the NS doesn't have a very deep bench.


> Do you dislike Jamie Oliver because you’re ideologically opposed to his pasta dishes, or is it because the idea of a working class man who has acquired the privileges of middle class life pisses you off?





> Sure, it’s utterly consumerist, but Jamie Oliver capitalises on something that most of us struggle to define: transforming a desire to better yourself morally and culturally into a cast-iron griddle pan. That, I think, is at least something to admire.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> She doesn't explicitly state that the _NS_ pays 12p/word. Could be any of the outlets she writes for, including the _Guardian_ (which despite a house agreement to pay £310.68/1,000 words for print only pays £90 for “commissioned or ‘pick of the day’” posts, with reports of CiF or blog posts of around 400-600 words earning just £85. At the lower end of that scale that would amount to approximately 12p/word.
> 
> laptop will know more about Tightarse Alan's regime of skinflintery.



She means the NS though doesn't she? Why else mention that brand edited it?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> She means the NS though doesn't she? Why else mention that brand edited it?


She may well mean the _NS_, but I don't think it is wise to assume that from a tweet (with all the attendant problems associated with brevity, zing, contextlessness, hyperbole etc which the form tends to bring with it), without some kind of explicit confirmation.

Certainly the NUJFB fees guide indicates current rates are around double the mentioned 12p/word. As SD is an experienced freelance and longtime, relatively high-profile (via the blogosphere) contributor to _NS,_ and not some ingénue pulling into the metropolis on a carrot cart with not an idea of how much to charge, I just think it is worth clarifying before potentially overreaching/misstating.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2014)

what if i have no wish to be fair to the NS and it's anti-union cast of scummers and want to make them look bad whilst being able to blame it on one of their own if it turns out to be untrue - eh, did you think of that? *prods in chest* eh?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> what if i have no wish to be fair to the NS and it's anti-union cast of scummers and want to make them look bad whilst being able to blame it on one of their own if it turns out to be untrue - eh, did you think of that? *prods in chest* eh?


I'm afraid I was aiming higher, and attempting to ensure that this _thread of record _accurately and wholly considered all reasonable inferences, to forestall potential future perpetuation of _possible_ mistakes


----------



## J Ed (Nov 5, 2014)

Apparently Laurie said this, and the quote been loving retweeted by LP. It's an interesting insight into her mind and the way in which she justifies lying about what people say and outright making shit up so that she doesn't have to 'adapt' herself. Explains a lot.






They _must_ be a misogynist/racist (disregard if neo-Nazi bearded hipster) otherwise I'd have to revise the idea that I am not a dick.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Apparently Laurie said this, and the quote been loving retweeted by LP. It's an interesting insight into her mind and the way in which she justifies lying about what people say and outright making shit up so that she doesn't have to 'adapt' herself. Explains a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's really quite a strange quote. Does LP have a notion that there is an essential self that exists somewhere separate from all the stories? She seems to be at least questioning this in the second part, where she is actively encouraging story telling as a way to change the world (which she presumably is partly a product of). It all comes across as a self-serving and poorly thought out justification for personal dishonesty in the cause of some greater good...not really the sort of thing you'd want to tweet, let alone retweet.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That's really quite a strange quote. Does LP have a notion that there is an essential self that exists somewhere seperate from all the stories? She seems to be at least questioning this in the second part, where she is actively encouraging story telling as a way to change the world (which she presumably is partly a product of). It all comes across as a self serving and poorly thought out justification for personal dishonesty in the cause of some geater good.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Sounds like fair, reasoned comment to me.


----------



## killer b (Nov 5, 2014)

It's an ironically (unintentionally) worded call to action ('be the change you want to see') rather than suggesting fibbing, surely?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 5, 2014)

killer b said:


> It's an ironically (unintentionally) worded call to action ('be the change you want to see') rather than suggesting fibbing, surely?


 
I'm not so sure. It seems to me to be a call to 'change the world' by telling 'stories', in order to protect yourself; after all that is where she starts i.e. don't change your self (whatever that might be), but rather change the account you give of the world you live in. She doesn't want to be the change/to be changed; she want to be protected, as she is. Which when you think about it isn't really all that suprising for someone in her position.

Cheers - Louis Macneice


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2014)

killer b said:


> It's an ironically (unintentionally) worded call to action ('be the change you want to see') rather than suggesting fibbing, surely?



Objective fact is, or should be, a journalistic fundamental. If you start bending a narrative and you're spotted doing it, which she has been on a number of occasions, then not only yourself but also your cause is discredited. It's like a trial witness giving evidence. A few small white lies might not seem like much until the opposing lawyer points them out to a jury, at which point _everything_ you've said becomes questionable no matter how accurate the rest of it may be. If people don't know at a given time whether or not you're bending the truth then they're likely to err on the side of caution.


----------



## killer b (Nov 5, 2014)

I know that's what she does, which is what makes the quote amusing. But she isn't suggesting that's what people should do ffs. listen to yourselves.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2014)

killer b said:


> I know that's what she does, which is what makes the quote amusing. But she isn't suggesting that's what people should do ffs. listen to yourselves.



Personally, it's the fact that she does it that annoys me. It's not what a reporter is supposed to do and ignores basic principles. I don't mind people being polemicists at all, provided they're honest about it. I mind the idea of pretending to be an honest broker while employing dishonest methods and rounding on people who have the temerity to point that out.


----------



## rekil (Nov 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


> neo-Nazi bearded hipster


Kicked off the twitter apparently. I don't see LP campaigning for her "digital activist hero" (Guardian - Nov 2013) this time.

Crabapple's done a fantastically smug 15 point guide to $ucce$$ to promote Cory Doctorow's stocking filler buke. She's left out a few and claimed she never got a big break. Forgotten about all the opportunities Occupy threw up already eh? EH?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 5, 2014)

killer b said:


> I know that's what she does, which is what makes the quote amusing. But she isn't suggesting that's what people should do ffs. listen to yourselves.


 
Sorry I'm confused now. She is saying invent the story isn't she? I have a nasty feeling that I'm being quite thick here...help me out.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## killer b (Nov 5, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Personally, it's the fact that she does it that annoys me. It's not what a reporter is supposed to do and ignores basic principles. I don't mind people being polemicists at all, provided they're honest about it. I mind the idea of pretending to be an honest broker while employing dishonest methods and rounding on people who have the temerity to point that out.


As a journalism fellow at Harvard, we know Penny needs no lecturing on journalistic ethics   Clearly she doesn't apply those ethics to her own writing, but advocating it to others would be insane.

So, while this is amusingly misunderstandable, it's not her suggesting journalists break rule 1 of the journalism rule book - it's her suggesting people act to change things (and therefore the story).


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2014)

killer b said:


> As a journalism fellow at Harvard, we know Penny needs no lecturing on journalistic ethics   Clearly she doesn't apply those ethics to her own writing, but advocating it to others would be insane.
> 
> So, while this is amusingly misunderstandable, it's not her suggesting journalists break rule 1 of the journalism rule book - it's her suggesting people act to change things (and therefore the story).



If I'm wrong about this particular instance, then fair enough. I don't think her prior record will have helped vis a vis misunderstandings, though.


----------



## newbie (Nov 5, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Sorry I'm confused now. She is saying invent the story isn't she? I have a nasty feeling that I'm being quite thick here...help me out.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


to me it reads like she's saying that as a character in a story she can do what's expected of her or she can try to change the plotline.

Isn't that something that's occurred to most of us, one way or another, even before the Truman Show?


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Sorry I'm confused now. She is saying invent the story isn't she? I have a nasty feeling that I'm being quite thick here...help me out.



By "the story" she means "life" or "the historical situation" or "politics."  She doesn't mean it in a journalistic sense.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Apparently Laurie said this, and the quote been loving retweeted by LP. It's an interesting insight into her mind and the way in which she justifies lying about what people say and outright making shit up so that she doesn't have to 'adapt' herself. Explains a lot.



Posts like this remind me of the Gamergate fiasco.  So desperate to find ammunition.  Getting daft.


----------



## 8115 (Nov 5, 2014)

She's an Emma Goldman for our time


----------



## J Ed (Nov 5, 2014)

8115 said:


> She's an Emma Goldman for our time



Don't tell her that, she'll open up an expensive ice cream shop which sells pretentious mostly savoury flavours


----------



## 8115 (Nov 5, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Don't tell her that, she'll open up an expensive ice cream shop which sells pretentious mostly savoury flavours


You know you're on a highbrow thread when you have to google the jokes to get them.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2014)

8115 said:


> You know you're on a highbrow thread when you have to google the jokes to get them.



Some things you're better off not knowing.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> By "the story" she means "life" or "the historical situation" or "politics."  She doesn't mean it in a journalistic sense.



Yep...I was avoiding some report writing and got hooked on a non-existent barb.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 6, 2014)

Have we had this one yet? Apparently the commentariat are winning. 

http://laurie-penny.com/why-were-winning-social-justice-warriors-and-the-new-culture-war/


----------



## toggle (Nov 6, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Have we had this one yet? Apparently the commentariat are winning.
> 
> http://laurie-penny.com/why-were-winning-social-justice-warriors-and-the-new-culture-war/





Not the commentariat,  feminists. i think. probably. erm.....


I think there might be some interesting points in there, mainly focused on the idea that you don't see backlash this severe unless you've actually gained ground. However, they have been made many times before by people who know more about feminism than a few buzzwords. That would be people who can actually write them in a way that doesn't a. make my eyes bleed and b. make me believe the worst job in journalism must be editing LPs wibble into something printable.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 6, 2014)

toggle said:


> Not the commentariat,  feminists. i think. probably. erm.....
> 
> 
> I think there might be some interesting points in there, mainly focused on the idea that you don't see backlash this severe unless you've actually gained ground. However, they have been made many times before by people who know more about feminism than a few buzzwords. That would be people who can actually write them in a way that doesn't a. make my eyes bleed and b. make me believe the worst job in journalism must be editing LPs wibble into something printable.



I guess if we have to talk about it seriously...

There are spikes and falls in interest in feminism all the time. But at certain points feminist movements have changed things before the inevitable reactionary backlash; LP and her ilk change nothing, they just rehash and repackage old ideas.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 6, 2014)

That's an article that's been written by several people about GamerGate with a few minor adjustments to make it supposedly more general, as far as I can tell.


----------



## toggle (Nov 6, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I guess if we have to talk about it seriously...
> 
> There are spikes and falls in interest in feminism all the time. But at certain points feminist movements have changed things before the inevitable reactionary backlash; LP and her ilk change nothing, they just rehash and repackage old ideas.



Absolutely.


Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's an article that's been written by several people about GamerGate with a few minor adjustments to make it supposedly more general, as far as I can tell.



that stuff was going about before gamergate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 6, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's an article that's been written by several people ...



© Studios Penné


----------



## rekil (Nov 6, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Have we had this one yet? Apparently the commentariat are winning.
> 
> http://laurie-penny.com/why-were-winning-social-justice-warriors-and-the-new-culture-war/


The Weev apologia appeared a couple of weeks after that. It's a peculiar form of feminism that involves boosting the likes of that 'digital activist hero' while deliberately concealing his racism and _gamergateesque_ misogyny.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2014)

hasn't weev boasted of his many 'doxing'* exploits against women he doesn't like?


*of course we have to have a new word for 'hacking and then leaking someones personal information. Because a) internet and b) the 'chan crowd love the weird ideolect


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 6, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> the commentariat are winning.


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> hasn't weev boasted of his many 'doxing'* exploits against women he doesn't like?
> 
> 
> *of course we have to have a new word for 'hacking and then leaking someones personal information. Because a) internet and b) the 'chan crowd love the weird ideolect


The word "dox" is probably older than you. It has been in use since at least the 1980s. Admittedly, it has only become a mainstream term fairly recently.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2014)

in the context 'doxxing' as in hacking and leaking personal info? or as net geek slang for document?


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> in the context 'doxxing' as in hacking and leaking personal info? or as net geek slang for document?


It's the same thing. It just means leaked/copied info, whether it's commercial or personal is immaterial.


----------



## Sue (Nov 8, 2014)

In Foyles yesterday, seems Laurie's latest has been shortlisted for a prize!

http://greencarnationprize.com

(LGBT writing apparently.)


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 8, 2014)

christ, are there that few LGBT people writing these days?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> christ, are there that few LGBT people writing these days?



it's probably more to do with the fact that Penny mentions her sexuality and her politics a lot more often than yer standard LGBT journo.


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 9, 2014)

Laurie did not make The Independent on Sunday's Rainbow List 2014, I guess that happens when you trash your former employer publicly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/therainbowlist/rainbow-list-2014-1-to-100-9848457.html


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Laurie did not make The Independent on Sunday's Rainbow List 2014



Probably just a subbing error


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> It's the same thing. It just means leaked/copied info, whether it's commercial or personal is immaterial.


so i suppose someone who does this doxxing is a doxy


----------



## Celyn (Nov 10, 2014)

And the practice of doxing is doxology.


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so i suppose someone who does this doxxing is a doxy


I'm sure there are many names for them  but usually they would be called a doxxer.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so i suppose someone who does this doxxing is a doxy



And if you do it for someone else you'd be a proxy doxy.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 10, 2014)

And if you weren't very good at that you'd be a poxy, proxy doxy.


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 10, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> And if you weren't very good at that you'd be a poxy, proxy doxy.


But if you were only pretending to be bad at it, you'd be a foxy, poxy, proxy, doxy.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 10, 2014)

Dressed as Robin Hood? A poxy, proxy doxy from Loxley.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 10, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> But if you were only pretending to be bad at it, you'd be a foxy, poxy, proxy, doxy.



Damn it I was working on a foxy one!

Cheers - Louis Macneice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 10, 2014)

If you went about your task with courage? A moxy but poxy, proxy doxy from Loxley.

I'd better stop now and do some work.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## rekil (Nov 10, 2014)

Dunno where else to put this ID pol nonsense. Why do I get the feeling that whoever came up with that are alumni of proper posh private schools?


----------



## captainmission (Nov 10, 2014)

copliker said:


> Why do I get the feeling that whoever came up with that are alumni of proper posh private schools?



It's worse than that; they've sort to replicate one - The Emma Goldman Finishing School

Well more a hippy housing co-op, but the name is telling. Also...



> we encourage membership in all ages, races, ethnicities, abilities, orientations, and *class backgrounds.*


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 10, 2014)

oh for fuck's sake.  liberal dickbags.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 10, 2014)

*insert wheel of oppression here*


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 10, 2014)

Fucking pricks.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 10, 2014)

captainmission said:


> It's worse than that; they've sort to replicate one - The Emma Goldman Finishing School
> 
> Well more a hippy housing co-op, but the name is telling. Also...


 
Emma Goldman is _so tired of your bullshit. _(not yours, captainmission)

_




_

Film at 11.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> *insert wheel of oppression here*



I'd like to fucking break them on the Wheel of Oppression, the fatuous cunts!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd like to fucking break them on the Wheel of Oppression, the fatuous cunts!


Bet you'd like to hear the lamentations of ‘their’ women too, you patriarchal bastard


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> *insert wheel of oppression here*



Kinky.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Bet you'd like to hear the lamentations of ‘their’ women too, you patriarchal bastard



Bit sexist to assume that it'd necessarily be their women lamenting, Dave, you male chauvinist swine!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit sexist to assume that it'd necessarily be their women lamenting, Dave, you male chauvinist swine!


Repression is pain


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit sexist to assume that it'd necessarily be their women lamenting, Dave, you male chauvinist swine!


heteronormative too.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 13, 2014)

Owen spends his LIFE doing politics. What do YOU do?


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 13, 2014)

weepiper said:


> What do YOU do?



As little as possible, generally.


----------



## krink (Nov 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd like to fucking break them on the Wheel of Oppression, the fatuous cunts!



spot on and cheers VP, that proper cheered me up!


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2014)

That doesn't seem an unreasonable response to the dig quoted - am I missing something?


----------



## krink (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> That doesn't seem an unreasonable response to the dig quoted - am I missing something?



.not at me


----------



## weepiper (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> That doesn't seem an unreasonable response to the dig quoted - am I missing something?


He just says it so much it's become a meme. Also if for whatever reason your health, caring responsibilities or financial situation prevents you from doing activism up and down the country it doesn't mean he's better than you.


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2014)

But he's responding to a snipe from a labour councillor saying he just writes about politics - I don't see any implication that he's better than anyone in that?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> But he's responding to a snipe from a labour councillor saying he just writes about politics - I don't see any implication that he's better than anyone in that?


It'[s the 2nd time owen jones has used this_ i'm doing politics full time, wtf are you doing?_ on people who question him on twitter though. He shouldn't be allowed get away with line-drawing between _specialists _and activists like him and norms. That's a really damaging thing to accept.


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2014)

But he hasn't said 'wtf are you doing'. There's no line being drawn - except by the labour councillor.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> But he hasn't said 'wtf are you doing'. There's no line being drawn - except by the labour councillor.


If you read the whole thread he comes across as very arrogant.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> But he hasn't said 'wtf are you doing'. There's no line being drawn - except by the labour councillor.


Give us a bit and i'll dig out the other example, it is relevant because this appears to be the same message with a more deserving target so possibly let slip by. The message seems clear to me. _I'm the proper politician_ - don't question me. It's something i'm sure most of us have seen replicated on smaller or larger scales throughout their collective political activity, which is why i think people recognise it was being so damaging. I've certainly seen it over and over, politicos attempting to dominante because, _well i'm the politico here - you're just a housewife. _And next week only the politicos turn up.


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2014)

Surely it's just Jones responding to someone else saying _I'm a proper politician, don't question me._


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> Surely it's just Jones responding to someone else saying _I'm a proper politician, don't question me._


If he is then he's responding - _i'm a proper politician too_. So still drawing and re-inforcing that line. And it really has to be measured alongside the last time he used almost that exact same line to try and cut norms out of debate/conclusions. I _will _find it.


----------



## krink (Nov 13, 2014)

just read that conversation, is OJ still a member of Labour? he only says he's not in scottish labour.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 13, 2014)

krink said:


> is OJ still a member of Labour?


If the glove fits


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2014)

killer b said:


> That doesn't seem an unreasonable response to the dig quoted - am I missing something?


Hang on - VP's post wasn't even addressed to the OJ thing, it was to that Emma Goldman/solidarity bollocks.


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2014)

I know, the quote seemed to go missing somewhere. I was replying to weeps'


----------



## rekil (Nov 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> If he is then he's responding - _i'm a proper politician too_. So still drawing and re-inforcing that line. And it really has to be measured alongside the last time he used almost that exact same line to try and cut norms out of debate/conclusions. I _will _find it.


Here's one. It's every day now rather than every other day. He's much much nicer if you're a face, regardless of how shit your politics are.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> Here's one. It's every day now rather than every other day. He's much much nicer if you're a face, regardless of how shit your politics are.



Ta, not sure that was even the one i was thinking of - so if not, that's three times. Note him blocking one of our comrades on that little exchange.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 13, 2014)

Owen Jones' accelerationism.

Next he will be going up and down the country twice a day.

Then #Omnipresence2015


----------



## krink (Nov 13, 2014)

(((((((((((((tired OJ))))))))))


----------



## rekil (Nov 13, 2014)

Simply The Best.


----------



## krink (Nov 13, 2014)

Unless there is going to be a mass public hanging in 2015 then I beg to differ.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 13, 2014)

Replace them with baying well-off Labour MPs who can continue Tory spending plans.

What's that William Burroughs quote? Something like "nobody does more harm than people _who feel bad about doing it_"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 13, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Owen Jones' accelerationism.



He's the Large Hadron Collider of the left


----------



## tim (Nov 13, 2014)

copliker said:


> Here's one. It's every day now rather than every other day. He's much much nicer if you're a face, regardless of how shit your politics are.




Thanks to Tory steadfastness, after HS2 he'll be able to whizz up and down the country in half a day.


----------



## rekil (Nov 13, 2014)

The next few months will be busy so he should make like Montgomery and Deadmau5 and look into hiring stunt double #activist Owens.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 13, 2014)

they love a bit of blocking, don't they.  owen blocked me on fb months ago, now left unity have done it.   no sense of the dialectic, these wankers.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 13, 2014)

krink said:


> Unless there is going to be a mass public hanging in 2015 then I beg to differ.



#payback2015 triple cashback on donations to the Labour Party*

*exceptions apply to trade union members


----------



## Greebo (Nov 13, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Owen Jones' accelerationism.
> 
> Next he will be going up and down the country twice a day.
> 
> Then #Omnipresence2015


Gosh - you mean like we mere mortals already do via the *gulp* internet?


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 13, 2014)

When I hear the words 'up and down the country' I reach for my revolver


----------



## Celyn (Nov 13, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Owen spends his LIFE doing politics. What do YOU do?




This Stephen McCabe cannot spell "practise".  Either that or he is an American impostor.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2014)

OJ was pretty much saying 'I'm a better politician because _I do politics all over the country_, not just in a small part of West Scotland'. That makes him pretty arrogant.

Whilst I have no wish to defend labour, Steve McCabe's constituency isn't in a particuarly wealthy (apart from the Kilmacolm area) part of the world. There's high unemployment for starters, and it is the worst area in Scotland for drug abuse issues in the 15-24 age group. Only Glasgow has more addicts in the 35-64 age group. When was the last time OJ visited the area to do some activism?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> OJ was pretty much saying 'I'm a better politician because _I do politics all over the country_, not just in a small part of West Scotland'. That makes him pretty arrogant.
> 
> Whilst I have no wish to defend labour, Steve McCabe's constituency isn't in a particuarly wealthy (apart from the Kilmacolm area) part of the world. There's high unemployment for starters, and it is the worst area in Scotland for drug abuse issues in the 15-24 age group. Only Glasgow has more addicts in the 35-64 age group. When was the last time OJ visited the area to do some activism?



You wouldn't be suggesting it's not trendy enough for him, would you?


----------



## chilango (Nov 14, 2014)

"Traipsing up and down the country" is a pretty shit way of doing politics anyway.


----------



## rekil (Nov 14, 2014)

Joan Burton of our very own pretend labour party deploying OJ's "up and down the country" zinger yesterday (at 0:34 mark) in response to some SF grandstanding.



Spoiler


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 14, 2014)

chilango said:


> "Traipsing up and down the country" is a pretty shit way of doing politics anyway.


But a great way to do a bit of the old serial killing - has anyone checked OJ's travel itinerary recently?


----------



## Greebo (Nov 14, 2014)

chilango said:


> "Traipsing up and down the country" is a pretty shit way of doing politics anyway.


Inefficient, expensive, not to mention worse for the environment than doing what you can in one place and using the net etc to reach places further away.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 14, 2014)

BTW I have no evidence to suggest that Thee Jones is a brutal and unempathetic slaughterer of strangers, using his self-defined role as the  perambulatory überactivist de nos jours as cover for his charnel deeds, but, you know, cold dead eyes etc.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 14, 2014)

if he's killing tories he's got my unqualified support


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 14, 2014)

_"By day he was the angel-faced superstar of the Labour Left, travelling up and down the country to bring hope to the hopeless..."_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 14, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> _"By day he was the angel-faced superstar of the Labour Left, travelling up and down the country to bring hope to the hopeless..."_



 

Angel-faced, you say? Now, there are angels, and there are _angels_...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 14, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> if he's killing tories he's got my unqualified support



Evokes wistful memories of this fine old zine (named for a spittle-flecked exhortation aimed at hunt sabs by a pink-coated psycho, I believe):


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 14, 2014)




----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> But a great way to do a bit of the old serial killing - has anyone checked OJ's travel itinerary recently?



There isn't an ill-fitting glove and a Ford Bronco involved, is there?


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 14, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> There isn't an ill-fitting glove and a Ford Bronco involved, is there?



OJ refuses to speak:


----------



## Blagsta (Nov 14, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> OJ was pretty much saying 'I'm a better politician because _I do politics all over the country_, not just in a small part of West Scotland'. That makes him pretty arrogant.
> 
> Whilst I have no wish to defend labour, Steve McCabe's constituency isn't in a particuarly wealthy (apart from the Kilmacolm area) part of the world. There's high unemployment for starters, and it is the worst area in Scotland for drug abuse issues in the 15-24 age group. Only Glasgow has more addicts in the 35-64 age group. When was the last time OJ visited the area to do some activism?



Stephen McCabe is an MP in Birmingham. Unless there's two of them.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Stephen McCabe is an MP in Birmingham. Unless there's two of them.


It's this one.


----------



## Blagsta (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's this one.



Not the brummie one then!


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Stephen McCabe is an MP in Birmingham. Unless there's two of them.


There's two of them. I did check.


----------



## agricola (Nov 14, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 63761



Does anyone elses' subconcious read that as "Owen Jones touches the political class"?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 15, 2014)

agricola said:


> Does anyone elses' subconcious read that as "Owen Jones touches the political class"?



No, just yours


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 15, 2014)

agricola said:


> Does anyone elses' subconcious read that as "Owen Jones touches the political class"?



Gazes at his political navel, more like.


----------



## rekil (Nov 15, 2014)

'At what point do I tell my child that life just isn't fair?'

Alice O'Keeffe's "Squeezed Middle" column.



> Middle-class mothers spend too much time telling their children to be nice, to share, not to hit anybody, to say please and thank you, not to drop litter in the street, or tease cats, or stomp on worms.



Fuck off.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 15, 2014)

> Middle-class mothers spend too much time telling their children to be nice


IME they don't spend nearly enough time.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 15, 2014)

working class mums never do any of those things the Hogarthian slatterns


----------



## weepiper (Nov 15, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> working class mums never do any of those things the Hogarthian slatterns


We're too busy letting our staffies shit all over the playground and leaving bags of meat in parks, apparently


----------



## Belushi (Nov 15, 2014)

weepiper said:


> We're too busy letting our staffies shit all over the playground and leaving bags of meat in parks, apparently



And drilling for fossil fuels apparently. I don't know where you get the time to fit it all in.


----------



## chilango (Nov 15, 2014)

Middle-class mothers spend too much time whinging about catchment areas, buying Orla Kiely/Cath Kidson changing bags and hanging out in the various branches of the "Lounge" chain of cafe bars frankly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2014)

obsessed by the myth of their own genteel english politeness.


----------



## The Boy (Nov 15, 2014)

agricola said:


> Does anyone elses' subconcious read that as "Owen Jones touches the political class"?



touches the political cloth?


----------



## rekil (Nov 16, 2014)

Laurie and someone called Molly Sauter who has a buke called The Coming Swarm about hacktivism - "a rising star" says Laurie referring to the blurb. A self-described geek in her twitter bio, LP says she thought DDOS attacks began in 2010! A whole buke about taking down websites, for a bit. Tis heartening that there are still opportunities for careers and brands to be built on this sort of shoddy parasitism.

Actual real life lol at 5:00, LP wishing she was at Seattle. Obligatory suffragette guff at 35:00, quoting Emmeline Pankhurst on property but ignoring her backing of WW1, imperialism, and anti-communism.

And not a peep about digital activist hero Weev btw, airbrushed from liberal #activist history.



Spoiler


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2014)

Note, and note well, 'star'.

This may be fun - put our favs names in here.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Note, and note well, 'star'.
> 
> This my be fun - put our favs names in here.



Readers of Owen Jones





lols


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2014)

Guess which noted commentator and friend of the poor this is for (well you know, readers of, not him/her)


----------



## Limerick Red (Nov 17, 2014)

.doublepost


----------



## Limerick Red (Nov 17, 2014)

People who like the English defence league have 10 times more readies than people who read socialist worker apparently


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 17, 2014)

Also, readers of Laurie Penny are more left wing than readers of Karl Marx.

Good to know.


----------



## Limerick Red (Nov 17, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also, readers of Laurie Penny are more left wing than readers of Karl Marx.
> 
> Good to know.


But not as left wing as celtic fans


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 17, 2014)

Fans of _Edge Of Darkness_ are basically Welsh versions of Trabant drivers 

Readers of _New Internationalist_ are more declassé and less affluent than those of _New Statesman_ (and there are 35x and 5x more _Beano_ readers than either)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 17, 2014)




----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 17, 2014)

is that a food from soprano's?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 17, 2014)




----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> is that a food from soprano's?



I think it's a kind of creme brulee type dessert. HB ice cream did a zabaglione flavoured ice cream back in 80s Ireland.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> is that a food from soprano's?


Maybe. French cuisine includes a similar thing (sabayonne).

Either way, zabaglione's mostly a foam made of eggs, sugar, and sweet white wine, whisked up over a very gentle heat source.


----------



## tim (Nov 17, 2014)

wrong thread, sorry!


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 18, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> is that a food from soprano's?


It'a an amazing Italian custard.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2014)

OT, but couldn't resist...






I know....fatist and all that, don't bother....


----------



## rekil (Nov 18, 2014)

This is my favourite. "Hobbies: Sleeping."


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Note, and note well, 'star'.
> 
> This may be fun - put our favs names in here.



Surprised that LP has such a large male following


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2014)

Lot of research and development types for Trotsky


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 18, 2014)

http://dannybirchall.tumblr.com/post/102910815919/all-the-white-people-who-like-all-the-things


----------



## rekil (Nov 18, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Surprised that LP has such a large male following


All them basement dwelling trolls probably.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 18, 2014)

copliker said:


> All them basement dwelling trolls probably.



And a legion of bungling sub-editors.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 18, 2014)

> Working-class cat owners who like Pussy Riot form core of the people's paper's audience



http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/...Morning-Star-readership#.VGsyXFQg_m4.facebook


----------



## rekil (Nov 18, 2014)

Urban75 poster receives endorsement from Hollywood royalty.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

We a' ponzi - our shamelessness.


----------



## rekil (Nov 18, 2014)

http://interactive.fusion.net/rise-up/index.html
http://fusionriseup.com/#speakers

This looks terrible, a little bit CIA even, but it's where LP's career trajectory might be headed isn't it? The bottomless pit of US state dept/disney/NGO cash. Crabapple did an ad for it, exploiting Ferguson. Check out the speaker bios - Samantha Power, conspiraloon Tim Pool, Pussy Riot, a Venezuelan brat that bagged a Cato Institute "Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty", various entreprenuers. Oh dear.


----------



## rekil (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm seeing OJ's catchphrase everywhere now.


> heroic work done by gardaí up and down the country


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 19, 2014)

copliker said:


> I'm seeing OJ's catchphrase everywhere now.


That author is a right charmer, isn't he?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenobyrnes
https://twitter.com/obyrness
http://www.mkc.ie/who-we-are/management-team/



> Stephen O’Byrnes is one of the most aggressive agents in the unregistered world of Irish lobbying...The covert machinations of MKC and the arch-Macchiavelli O’Byrnes have not conduced to a healthy and democratic discussion of this fairly mainstream environmental and political issue.



http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index...beg-incinerator-an-essay-in-cynical-lobbying/



> The latest well-paid bigshot to chastise those who've lost their jobs for their carelessness is Stephen O'Byrnes, a leading PR consultant who took a break from his spin-doctor's surgery last week to talk down to the unemployed from the opinion pages of The Irish Times...Given the number of immigrants employed in [the market gardening, meat processing and hospitality] sectors, he concludes that the "no jobs mantra" is a convenient excuse that "suits the disposition of the work-shy and the welfare abuser".



http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...tter-laughter-of-the-dole-queue-26758596.html


----------



## Limerick Red (Nov 19, 2014)

copliker said:


> I'm seeing OJ's catchphrase everywhere now.


Nearly vomited reading that yesterday, think one of murphys mistakes in the media, and in fairness he has done very well considering the forces he is dealing with, is to get drawn into an debate over what constitutes peaceful protest!


----------



## rekil (Nov 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> That author is a right charmer, isn't he?


See OR's post here. They don't know how to respond really. The scenario he and the rest of the media are trying to present is just not recognisable to most people. Of course there's an element who want to see people battered for the lolz but they're not the ones that need to be addressed.

John Waters of all people, although the *silent* protest is a bit of a crap idea.


> The word "violence" crept into the reporting as a matter of routine. Politicians and scribes sought to outdo each other in an orgy of platitudinising about democracy and freedom. By Monday, the Taoiseach was sufficiently self-assured to declare that the Tanaiste had been "effectively kidnapped". Our bullyboy Government was "traumatised and upset".
> 
> Let's get real. Throwing water or eggs is not "violence". It's been a staple element of street protest for at least two millennia. A road blockade, too, is a legitimate form of protest and although she was in the car with her secretary, the Tanaiste was under the protection of the Garda Public Order Unit.





Limerick Red said:


> Nearly vomited reading that yesterday, think one of murphys mistakes in the media, and in fairness he has done very well considering the forces he is dealing with, is to get drawn into an debate over what constitutes peaceful protest!


Just saw yesterday's Herald with amazing "Burton Hag Insult Not My Fault" front page. And yet I did smirk when Murphy was quizzed on his background (private school) and he claimed that class (or background can't remember) isn't important. Or at least that was what was reported.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 19, 2014)

_*CASTING FOR AN MTV DOCUMENTARY* 
Punched in the Head Productions - Brooklyn, NY 


When You're White, it can be difficult to talk about race.
Casting for an MTV Documentary: Are you white? Do you have a story to tell? We want to hear from you.
Is race an issue in your family, community or school? Is something making you question possible advantages you've had as a white person? Are you being discriminated against for being white? Are you having a problem with race on social media? Is something happening in your life that's making you think a lot about race, or what it means to be white?

If you are white, appear between the ages of 16-24 years old, and relate to these questions, we want to hear from you. Please email your name, number, a recent photo and a brief description of your story.


Indeed - 18 hours ago -  save job   
» Apply Now_​
http://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=13ba8ba1f082852f

Something tells me this is not going to end happily.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 19, 2014)

first up, the producers talk to Weev


----------



## rekil (Nov 19, 2014)

DG is an odd fellow. Also, epic biology fail.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 19, 2014)

A white rasta and neo-Nazi skinhead "for balance".


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> _
> Punched in the Head Productions - Brooklyn, NY_
> ​


​
_Should Be _Punched in the Head, amirite?

dickheadery.


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 19, 2014)




----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 19, 2014)

i would, but i'm washing my hair.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 19, 2014)

The Pale King said:


>




I wouldn't take up that offer. I'd only be wilfully and/or unattributedly misquoted.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 19, 2014)

I am doing a YouGov survey and it includes this question:

 

'Political figure'


----------



## JimW (Nov 19, 2014)

weepiper said:


> ...
> 
> 'Political figure'


Would 'current' stretch to saying Thatcher cos she died?


----------



## rekil (Nov 20, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I am doing a YouGov survey and it includes this question:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Political figure'


Barry Mainwaring


----------



## rekil (Nov 20, 2014)

Kshama Sawant arrested yesterday. Still no mention of her or offers of #solidarity from the revolutionary socialist and feminist Laurie Penny. What gives?


> Seattle City Councilwoman Kshama Sawant was arrested after she failed to disperse during a protest outside of Alaska Airlines headquarters in SeaTac Wednesday evening.
> 
> Sawant was one of four people arrested when they stayed in the middle of a street at a protest calling for a $15 minimum wage for all workers at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport. The other people arrested were a cargo handler, a former airport worker and a church reverend.
> 
> Sawant said before the protest started that it was her “obligation as a public servant” to exercise civil disobedience and risk arrest.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 21, 2014)

i saw this and thought of this thread "_Specifically, they identify as a non-binary genderqueer peoplequeer mentally ill non-monogamous kinky critical feminist robot"_


----------



## rekil (Nov 22, 2014)

LP's "digital activist hero" in Pando.



> One aspect of the culture that weev obviously enjoys is the concept of “wasta,” an entrenched organizing principle in Levantine neighborhoods, economies and political life, which roughly means “clout” or “influence” or “who you know.” It also signifies protection.
> 
> “I’ve got some wasta,” weev says. “Enough to mitigate a controlled kidnapping situation. But there is a much greater risk that the US government could just kill me.”
> 
> He refers to wasta frequently throughout our talk, and clearly relishes the idea of a network of protection that doesn’t cave to threats of prosecution or violence. He says he owes his wasta to his girlfriend’s family ties in Beirut.


I get the feeling that it's not the US govt he should be worried about but rather the inevitable falling out with shady new associates because he's a massive cunt.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 22, 2014)

Celebrity Internet Leftie Death Match!







And the Bonus Ball:


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 22, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i saw this and thought of this thread "_Specifically, they identify as a non-binary genderqueer peoplequeer mentally ill non-monogamous kinky critical feminist robot"_



Been reading the Daily Express again?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 22, 2014)

it was on some feminist website.  the piece attached was incredibly patronising.


----------



## rekil (Nov 22, 2014)

Everyone stop what you're doing and get #furious at this filthy heteronormative propaganda.



> Left in Love is a monthly dating column for progressive daters, written by Meghan Murphy. Left alone? Find love at rabble.ca. Let us send you out on the town with someone who will tickle your radical fancy!


Left in Love: Angus and Priscilla overcome white male privilege and find common ground


> Self-awareness is sexy. We did the whole "where would you like to be in 10 years" bit, and I was attracted to the way she described her metric for achievement.


Something about "metric for achievement" makes me die inside a bit. I don't get it. Is this made up stuff with normal people used as props for the pics?


----------



## red & green (Nov 22, 2014)

Don't know what LP is going on about most of the time - seems to be her personal interests


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 22, 2014)

copliker said:


> Something about "metric for achievement" makes me die inside a bit.



not just you.  it makes me feel like i live in a planet of weird aliens/


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 22, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Celebrity Internet Leftie Death Match!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



someone else on his TL accusing _Chavs _of enabling racism (presumably on the grounds that it draws attention to the white working class and racist stereotype).The whole Thornberry episode is like a masterclass in divide and rule.


----------



## Limerick Red (Nov 22, 2014)

How there you , I'm a socialist


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 22, 2014)

Who on earth actually says 'I was attracted to the way she described her metric of achievement'? What wanky pompous bollocks.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Who on earth actually says 'I was attracted to the way she described her metric of achievement'? What wanky pompous bollocks.



Yet another example of how it is becoming impossible to differentiate between the _intersectionalistas_ and corporate HR wankers.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Yet another example of it would be impossible to differentiate between the _intersectionalistas_ and corporate HR wankers.


Not even our extremely corporate appraisal system uses that type of phrase.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 22, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Celebrity Internet Leftie Death Match!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm on team OJ with that one. The Artist Taxi Driver needs to be brought down a peg or two.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 24, 2014)

I don't understand the beef


----------



## rekil (Nov 27, 2014)

Laurie back on form after trying to make a hero out of a nazi. Having a go at the real enemy. Horrid white socialists exploiting Ferguson to promote their brand.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 27, 2014)

No black person would ever believe that racism is fundamentally rooted in economics


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

White socialist bastards.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 27, 2014)

using ferguson to score a vague intersectionalist id politics point. nice


----------



## Flavour (Nov 27, 2014)

Haven't you all forgotten that race is more important than class? I thought we'd cleared that up quite comprehensively by now.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> White socialist bastards.



Indict them along with Wilson!!


----------



## Flavour (Nov 27, 2014)

I bet they were men, too, those white people.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 27, 2014)

I bet they were privately educated too!!! Wait, that's ok isn't it? At least not as bad as being a white bloke!


----------



## Belushi (Nov 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I bet they were privately educated too!!! Wait, that's ok isn't it? At least not as bad as being a white bloke!



People can't help being privately educated! Unlike being a white bloke.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie back on form after trying to make a hero out of a nazi. Having a go at the real enemy. Horrid white socialists exploiting Ferguson to promote their brand.




Weev would never have done this


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 28, 2014)

Russell Brand advertising protests against water charges in Ireland.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 28, 2014)

Flavour said:


> Haven't you all forgotten that race is more important than class? I thought we'd cleared that up quite comprehensively by now.



Yes, and the political strategies flowing from that insight have been such an amazing success in pig AmeriKKKa.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 28, 2014)

Flavour said:


> Haven't you all forgotten that race is more important than class? I thought we'd cleared that up quite comprehensively by now.


Thing is flav - not one of us has said that class is more important than race, we've said that class _regulates _race, that the race line is a class line and that a flattening down of them into competing identity politics harms both/all. They are the ones who demand that we have said that class is the more important - when that way of ranking things in order of importance rather than looking at how they interact is  actually a ludicrous approach.

(and yes, i did forget to reply to your pm)


----------



## rekil (Nov 29, 2014)

Belushi said:


> No black person would ever believe that racism is fundamentally rooted in economics


Meanwhile, Kshama Sawant, whose existence and organisation's minimum wage campaign is yet to be publically acknowledged by LP, weighed in and dropped this bomb. 

 

She also gave a couple of jabs to identity politics at a thing about the Seattle 1999 protests - 32:25ish mark.



Spoiler


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2014)

i don't know who kshama sawant is, but i agree with that malcolm x quote.


----------



## rekil (Nov 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i don't know who kshama sawant is, but i agree with that malcolm x quote.


If I was a Guardian/Staggers journo, I'd label her "the American Pussy Riot".


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2014)

oh.  i thought that was the pussycat dolls?


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> If I was a Guardian/Staggers journo, I'd label her "the American Pussy Riot".



She's CWI. I have a lot of time for her tbh.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> If I was a Guardian/Staggers journo, I'd label her "the American Pussy Riot".



Seattle - _you've probably never heard of it _


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Seattle - _you've probably never heard of it _


Was that that time Kurt Cobain flashed his tits to protest about non-Fairtrade instant coffee or something?


----------



## FNG (Nov 29, 2014)

nop[e this


lyrics


Spoiler



No sunshine

The body rock stopped, probably got caught by the cops
Nearby, somebody got shot
But parties don't stop and the parties don't care
It's a stick-up, it's why we got our hands in the air

Still demanding a share, refrigerators bare
'Cause they wanna see trade get free and not fair
But we are not blind, we are not there
We don't got time left to spare to not care

On the last day of November, swellin' in ranks
Went to chant down the mighty IMF and World Bank
A gathering of people in peaceful assembly
Onward to Westlake to disrupt the entry

Walk along steady, riot squad ready
To protect every last dignitary's ass
But this started when they herded us like cattle in a fence
Protesters gettin' restless without an exit

They threatened to arrest us, we pushed back and then
A hail of rubber bullets hit teens and old men
I admit, had to split when the first gas canisters hit
Felt it burn in my eyes, nose, and lips

They tried to blame it on the anarchists, garbage
I was there, I'll tell you right now the pigs started it
But they distort it in the news
Talkin' bout stompin' down Niketown wearing their shoes

But the body rock stopped, probably got caught by the cops
Nearby, somebody got shot
But the parties don't stop and the parties don't care
It's a stick-up, it's why we got our hands in the air

50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets
50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets
50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets
50,000 deep, 50,000 deep

Yeah, now, the body rock stopped, probably got caught by the cops
Nearby, somebody got shot
But parties don't stop in the south
So take your shoes off when you come into my house

I had to duck out 'cause I knew I stuck out in the crowd
After many years growin' up brown in this town
Now this is what democracy looks like
Not what you all had in mind for tonight

Mr. Mayor, shell-shocked for 5 days straight
Press conference, lookin' constipated and pale
Tossed a homie in jail, wasn't even protesting
Wrong place, wrong time, learned a quick lesson

But this is not a question what we did to deserve this
Rich kids went and got arrested on purpose
But was it worth it? My first inclination
Globalization is the root of the pain

Made the reason that they left and the reason that we came
Catch my breath, blood pulsates my brain
And they called it a riot?
Huh, I call it an uprising

And they call this a riot?
But nah, I call it a uprising
And they call this a riot? Nah man, fuck that
I'm a call it a uprising

50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets, yo
50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets, come on y'all
50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets, yeah
50,000 deep, and it sound like thunder when our feet pound streets


----------



## rekil (Nov 29, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Was that that time Kurt Cobain flashed his tits to protest about non-Fairtrade instant coffee or something?


"passionate about gunge music"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 29, 2014)

copliker said:


> "passionate about gunge music"


He did that entire album protesting against Rio Tinto, didn't he? _Never Mined_ or something?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> She's CWI. I have a lot of time for her tbh.



sorry froggy, what's CWI?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> He did that entire album protesting against Rio Tinto, didn't he? _Never Mined_ or something?



if someone made that joke to me on a date, i'd put out for sure.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 29, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> sorry froggy, what's CWI?



The trot international the SP is part of


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2014)

oh.   i was hoping it was sometihng a bit more interesting


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2014)

Not to be confused with their hated enemies the WCI.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 29, 2014)




----------



## Belushi (Nov 29, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Not to be confused with their hated enemies the WCI.



SPLITTERS


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Yes, and the political strategies flowing from that insight have been such an amazing success in pig AmeriKKKa.



Don't dis the MIM m8! They have movie reviews!

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/review.php?f=long/gladiator.txt

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/long/azkaban.html

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/review.php?f=long/matrix.txt

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/long/shrek2.html

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/long/terminator3.html

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/review.php?f=long/trumanshow.txt


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

Some of those associated with MIM and RAIM became the (Maoist Third-Worldist) Leading Light Communist Organization a while back, upholding the earlier labour aristocrat theory and the Mao-Lin Biao concept of global People's War.

American Maoism is quite odd.  It seems mainly confined to the internet, though, with LLCO forming out of a collection of blogs about MTWism appearing over the years, the most important one (I think) being Monkey Smashes Heaven (LLCO's journal keeps the name).

Class-privileged Harvard (and the like) freaks.  The kind of privilege we won't hear about when they look down on the white trash and crackers enjoying the benefits of United $nakes imperialism.  The aristocrats may as well be literally drinking the blood of super-exploited people in the 'occupied third world.'  I think they'd scare the average liberal intersectionalista bully on Twitter shitless. It would be quite funny to watch a prairie fire melt a special snowflake.  It comes form the same place, though.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Some of those associated with MIM and RAIM became the (Maoist Third-Worldist) Leading Light Communist Organization a while back, upholding the earlier labour aristocrat theory and the Mao-Lin Biao concept of global People's War.
> 
> American Maoism is quite odd.  It seems mainly confined to the internet, though, with LLCO forming out of a collection of blogs about MTWism appearing over the years, the most important one (I think) being Monkey Smashes Heaven (LLCO's journal keeps the name).
> 
> Class-privileged Harvard (and the like) freaks.  The kind of privilege we won't hear about when they look down on the white trash and crackers enjoying the benefits of United $nakes imperialism.  The aristocrats may as well be literally drinking the blood of super-exploited people in the 'occupied third world.'  I think they'd scare the average liberal intersectionalista bully on Twitter shitless. It would be quite funny to watch a prairie fire melt a special snowflake.  It comes form the same place, though.



A pattern that goes back to the 60s apparently - the Trots were strong in US public unis, but Mao Zedong thought took its recruits from the elite private schools. 

Did I ever email you that Monthly Review special issue on the cultural revolution at Tsinghua university, btw?


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 30, 2014)

Oh, and his Blowback Chalmers Johnson recalls checking his university library at the height of anti-Vietnam feeling, and being surprised to discover that all the books on Mao and China were sitting unread and ignored on the shelves.

Students, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Some of those associated with MIM and RAIM became the (Maoist Third-Worldist) Leading Light Communist Organization a while back, upholding the earlier labour aristocrat theory and the Mao-Lin Biao concept of global People's War.
> 
> American Maoism is quite odd.  It seems mainly confined to the internet, though, with LLCO forming out of a collection of blogs about MTWism appearing over the years, the most important one (I think) being Monkey Smashes Heaven (LLCO's journal keeps the name).
> 
> Class-privileged Harvard (and the like) freaks.  The kind of privilege we won't hear about when they look down on the white trash and crackers enjoying the benefits of United $nakes imperialism.  The aristocrats may as well be literally drinking the blood of super-exploited people in the 'occupied third world.'  I think they'd scare the average liberal intersectionalista bully on Twitter shitless. It would be quite funny to watch a prairie fire melt a special snowflake.  It comes form the same place, though.


whatever happened to the RIMmers?


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> A pattern that goes back to the 60s apparently - the Trots were strong in US public unis, but Mao Zedong thought took its recruits from the elite private schools.
> 
> Did I ever email you that Monthly Review special issue on the cultural revolution at Tsinghua university, btw?



No you didn't.  Linky please.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 30, 2014)

Link:

http://archive.monthlyreview.org/index.php/mr/article/view/MR-024-03-1972-07_1

It's paywalled alas, but I think I have a PDF somewhere. More tomorrow. . .


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> A pattern that goes back to the 60s apparently - the Trots were strong in US public unis, but Mao Zedong thought took its recruits from the elite private schools.



Guilty liberalism turned up to eleven basically. The interesting part is just how big US Maoism got for a little while. There's even a direct link to today's much less radical guilty liberal politics through privilege theory, which originated in the US Maoish diaspora.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 30, 2014)

weather underground self crit sessions etc. I rrecall reading something from an ex member ages ago- almost cultish set up


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Some of those associated with MIM and RAIM became the (Maoist Third-Worldist) Leading Light Communist Organization a while back, upholding the earlier labour aristocrat theory and the Mao-Lin Biao concept of global People's War.
> 
> American Maoism is quite odd.  It seems mainly confined to the internet, though, with LLCO forming out of a collection of blogs about MTWism appearing over the years, the most important one (I think) being Monkey Smashes Heaven (LLCO's journal keeps the name).
> 
> Class-privileged Harvard (and the like) freaks.  The kind of privilege we won't hear about when they look down on the white trash and crackers enjoying the benefits of United $nakes imperialism.  The aristocrats may as well be literally drinking the blood of super-exploited people in the 'occupied third world.'  I think they'd scare the average liberal intersectionalista bully on Twitter shitless. It would be quite funny to watch a prairie fire melt a special snowflake.  It comes form the same place, though.



Canadian anarcho/maoist publisher Kersplebedeb has really been championing this neo-Maoism, hasn't it?

This is the new political economic textbook for the neo-Maoists. I'll up a PDF for reference if it can't be found. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Divided-World-Class-Stratification-Capitalism/dp/1894946413


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 30, 2014)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Worker-Elite-Notes-Aristocracy-ebook/dp/B00KOTXSTC

I can't speak for other so-called third world revolutionaries but the Turkish and Kurdish Maoists reject this shite. Mind you, they're still stuck in 1979.


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Guilty liberalism turned up to eleven basically. The interesting part is just how big US Maoism got for a little while. There's even a direct link to today's much less radical guilty liberal politics through privilege theory, which originated in the US Maoish diaspora.



Their upper middle class guilt takes them to some nasty places.  In their fantasy, after the victorious People's War, reparations are expected.  

As well as making use of the advanced technologies and infrastructure of the defeated countries as part of a redistribution of stolen wealth, this includes the unproductive exploiter populations of the defeated imperialist countries (me and you) being forcibly dispersed throughout the world under the Joint Dictatorship of the Proletariat of Oppressed Nations, to take part in socialist construction under the supervision of the new global revolutionary state power.  

Given their take on things re race and privilege, this would likely take on the character of ethnic cleansing, not to mention the forced labour.


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

dialectician said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Worker-Elite-Notes-Aristocracy-ebook/dp/B00KOTXSTC
> 
> I can't speak for other so-called third world revolutionaries but the Turkish and Kurdish Maoists reject this shite. Mind you, they're still stuck in 1979.



The author was apparently a part of the US Maoist milieu back in the 1970s.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Their upper middle class guilt takes them to some nasty places.  In their fantasy, after the victorious People's War, reparations are expected.
> 
> As well as making use of the advanced technologies and infrastructure of the defeated countries as part of a redistribution of stolen wealth, this includes the unproductive exploiter populations of the defeated imperialist countries (me and you) being forcibly dispersed throughout the world under the Joint Dictatorship of the Proletariat of Oppressed Nations, to take part in socialist construction under the supervision of the new global revolutionary state power.
> 
> Given their take on things re race and privilege, this would likely take on the character of ethnic cleansing, not to mention the forced labour.



Thankfully it will always remain a fantasy. If they, you know, actually conducted some research, the braindead numbskull philistines, they would realise that a lot of Maoist parties in India, for instance, are owned by wealthy businessmen. There are like 500 Maoist sects in India. I'm not kidding. The Nepalese Maoists once again split last Monday.

People persistently accuse Trotskyism of being a nebulous and sectarian movement, which is not wholly unwarranted, it must be conceded, but they still don't compare to the Maoists...


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> The author was apparently a part of the US Maoist milieu back in the 1970s.



Have you read it? I've only red Cope and found his implicit conflation of surplus-value with profit, his idea that productive labourers in the first world are remunerated, and an inability to distinguish between the multifaceted layers of the first world proletariat to be extremely problematic. Oh and his apologetics for third period Stalinism, using the work of Aly Götze to come to some strange conclusion that workers didn't resist fascism.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Their upper middle class guilt takes them to some nasty places.  In their fantasy, after the victorious People's War, reparations are expected.
> 
> As well as making use of the advanced technologies and infrastructure of the defeated countries as part of a redistribution of stolen wealth, this includes the unproductive exploiter populations of the defeated imperialist countries (me and you) being forcibly dispersed throughout the world under the Joint Dictatorship of the Proletariat of Oppressed Nations, to take part in socialist construction under the supervision of the new global revolutionary state power.
> 
> Given their take on things re race and privilege, this would likely take on the character of ethnic cleansing, not to mention the forced labour.



This is MIM and the post-MIM third worldist milieu you are talking about here I presume rather than the 70s organisations with thousands of members? MIM were always unrepresentative fruitcakes and to be considered such in company as fruitcakey as US Maoism is quite the accomplishment.

The likes of the RU, CP(ML) etc were strange in their own ways but they weren't MIM strange.


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> This is MIM and the post-MIM third worldist milieu you are talking about here I presume rather than the 70s organisations with thousands of members? MIM were always unrepresentative fruitcakes and to be considered such in company as fruitcakey as US Maoism is quite the accomplishment.
> 
> The likes of the RU, CP(ML) etc were strange in their own ways but they weren't MIM strange.



I was talking about the newer organisation which came partly out of MIM, the activity of which seems to only exist on the internet.

The CP (M-L) you're talking about defended Democratic Kampuchea until some of its members realised their trip there in 1978 was foolish indeed. The party collapsed not long after.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I was talking about the newer organisation which came partly out of MIM, the activity of which seems to only exist on the internet.
> 
> The CP (M-L) you're talking about defended Democratic Kampuchea until some of its members realised their trip there in 1978 was foolish indeed. The party collapsed not long after.



Yes, quite a lot of Western Maoists were supportive of "Democratic Kampuchea", partly because the Khmer Rouge were seen as a successful national liberation movement (they beat the imperial powers and their local puppets before the Vietnamese did) and partly because Pol Pot and Co tended to align themselves with China rather than Russia. Most, but not all, of them eventually realised that this was not a good idea.

I'm no fan of the CP(ML) at all, but they were very much larger and much less nuts than the MIM. They were a real thing rather than a couple of strange lads with a typewriter.


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Have you read it? I've only red Cope and found his implicit conflation of surplus-value with profit, his idea that productive labourers in the first world are remunerated, and an inability to distinguish between the multifaceted layers of the first world proletariat to be extremely problematic. Oh and his apologetics for third period Stalinism, using the work of Aly Götze to come to some strange conclusion that workers didn't resist fascism.



I haven't read either. His Maoist history is vaguely referred to in the intro I think, saw it mentioned somewhere. I would be interested if you can get hold of copies.

As for Maoism in India, when you talk of the hundreds of groups (are there really that many?!) I assume you're talking about orgs beyond those that trace their origins to the CPI (M-L) and the doomed Charu Mazumdar line of armed struggle. On that score, I think there are something like 40 groups of 'Naxalites.' The term is misused by the authorities there, even when they are using it on Maoists, rather than just blaming something else on them.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 30, 2014)

Yes organisations beyond CPI (M-L) and Charu Mazumdar. Just insignificant sectlets really, 10-100 members max, kinda like some tiny Trot groups in the UK. I'll ask my Indian comrades next time I speak to them or see if I can find any literature on it from Turkish Maoists.

Hundreds was me slightly hyperbolising but definitely more than 40...


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, quite a lot of Western Maoists were supportive of "Democratic Kampuchea", partly because the Khmer Rouge were seen as a successful national liberation movement (they beat the imperial powers and their local puppets before the Vietnamese did) and partly because Pol Pot and Co tended to align themselves with China rather than Russia. Most, but not all, of them eventually realised that this was not a good idea.
> 
> I'm no fan of the CP(ML) at all, but they were very much larger and much less nuts than the MIM. They were a real thing rather than a couple of strange lads with a typewriter.



They beat them partly because of the vital support given and large gains made by the Vietnamese on Cambodian soil against FANK, if we look at it from 1970-73. The victories were only two weeks apart, but capturing Phnom Penh before the northerners captured Saigon was a source pride for the CPK.

I think westerners (non-Maoists included) also failed to understand the deterioration of relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties, either seeing outward signs of fraternal solidarity (for a time) or viewing it through a crude understanding of Sino-Soviet enmity.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> They beat them partly because of the vital support given and large gains made by the Vietnamese on Cambodian soil against FANK, if we look at it from 1970-73. The victories were only two weeks apart, but capturing Phnom Penh before the northerners captured Saigon was a source pride for the CPK.
> 
> I think westerners (non-Maoists included) also failed to understand the deterioration of relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties, either seeing outward signs of fraternal solidarity (for a time) or viewing it through a crude understanding of Sino-Soviet enmity.



Agreed on both points. There was a misunderstanding generally of both the intense nationalism of the KR and their intense weirdness. So they tended to be seen either as a simple offshoot and junior ally of the Vietnamese or alternatively as "Pro-Chinese" for Sino-Soviet split reasons rather than "Pro-Chinese" for anti-Vietnam reasons.


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 30, 2014)

They weren't 'weird' so much as crudely formulaic. I think their xenophobia and nationalism is misunderstood. It was still within a Marxist-Leninist framework of national liberation, 'building socialism' via rapid industrialisation and eventual communism (as they understood it).  It needs to be said that the above wasn't something most of the country's population was aware of, but it was imposed upon them and quickly rejected (the wartime united front masking the party enjoyed widespread but never majority peasant support, and that was soon lost). There were 'traditional' reasons with regard to the rural social structure (as well as living conditions and terror) that saw no coordinated, country-wide resistance, however.

In doctrinal terms, they owed a lot to their later mortal enemies, and the Vietnamese after 1979 encouraged the idea that they were weird 'fascist' crazies, rather than through the toxic circumstances of a brutal and devastating war, and inexperience when rocketed to positions of authority,  the Cambodians shared the same Stalinist/Maoist politics in important respects.

They did however gain inspiration from the PRC, but not wholesale copying.


----------



## toblerone3 (Nov 30, 2014)

I don't really get this thread at all.


----------



## rekil (Nov 30, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> He did that entire album protesting against Rio Tinto, didn't he? _Never Mined_ or something?


Victory to Nickelback who have cast off the cowl of conference level pussyfootin' gunge to proclaim that we're (Standin' On The) Edge Of A Revolooshawn


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> They weren't 'weird' so much as crudely formulaic. I think their xenophobia and nationalism is misunderstood. It was still within a Marxist-Leninist framework of national liberation, 'building socialism' via rapid industrialisation and eventual communism (as they understood it).  It needs to be said that the above wasn't something most of the country's population was aware of, but it was imposed upon them and quickly rejected (the wartime united front masking the party enjoyed widespread but never majority peasant support, and that was soon lost). There were 'traditional' reasons with regard to the rural social structure (as well as living conditions and terror) that saw no coordinated, country-wide resistance, however.
> 
> In doctrinal terms, they owed a lot to their later mortal enemies, and the Vietnamese after 1979 encouraged the idea that they were weird 'fascist' crazies, rather than through the toxic circumstances of a brutal and devastating war, and inexperience when rocketed to positions of authority,  the Cambodians shared the same Stalinist/Maoist politics in important respects.
> 
> They did however gain inspiration from the PRC, but not wholesale copying.



I think this seriously understates the weirdness of the KR. 

Their nationalism, of a particularly intense and chauvinist kind, was not simply a local variant of a "national liberation" strategy, but was also in very large part targeted against their (also colonised) neighbours and internal minorities. Their anti-city, back to the land, stance was, of course justified in terms of ultimately developmentalist goals, but as a starting point was a nearly unique inversion of Stalinist norms.

That they started out within a Stalinist ideological framework is certainly true. That their brutality was shaped by the devastation wrought by the long war against colonialism is equally certain. As is the undoubted fact that the Vietnamese had every reason to portray them as entirely sui generis, nothing to with us gov. But nonetheless there really is nothing quite like them in the whole rotten collection of Stalinist regimes. Compare their rule to that of the WPV or the Pathet Lao, all stemming from the same original party, all coming to power after devastating wars, all inexperienced. Yet their neighbours in different ways were rather obviously within the broad Stalinist mainstream, while the KR very quickly went haywire.


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 1, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I think this seriously understates the weirdness of the KR.
> 
> Their nationalism, of a particularly intense and chauvinist kind, was not simply a local variant of a "national liberation" strategy, but was also in very large part targeted against their (also colonised) neighbours and internal minorities.



What I meant earlier was top-down industrial development within a national framework, but separate to and outdoing a unified Vietnam; this partly was tied to a fear, whether or not the Vietnamese had the resources or inclination, to dominate the area. More broadly, the crudity of its interpretation, the brutality in which it was carried out, and the differing paths based on an individual country's 'needs' (from a Communist Party's view of how to begin industrial development) doesn't disqualify CPK use of doctrine taught to them by the ICP/VWP, even when they went their own, independent way.



> Their anti-city, back to the land, stance was, of course justified in terms of ultimately developmentalist goals, but as a starting point was a nearly unique inversion of Stalinist norms.



The country was overwhelmingly rural anyway and the CPK's aim for rapid industrialisation was to begin there, so 'back to the land' implies a different kind of society the CPK controlled in 1975 and the government's goals.  Also, as the war went on the country was divided into a united front/Communist-controlled countryside versus besieged urban islands held by the Republic, protected by the USAF and supplied by American aid.  There were obvious reasons why the urban areas were viewed as 'enemy' territory, however their populations bulged from the influx of rural people escaping the aerial bombing and fighting.  They would've wanted to return to their villages after the war, but they too were viewed as the 'enemy' by CPK cadres.  What is sometimes forgotten is that the 'new' people treated so harshly by the Communists also consisted of peasant refugees, not just genuine urbanites.

The revolution intended to do away with traditional village life altogether, without the peasantry's say so.  The all-out effort to produce agricultural surpluses, and the transformation of the countryside to lay the foundations for building light and later heavy industry, saw the attacking of social institutions the peasantry held dear.



> That they started out within a Stalinist ideological framework is certainly true. That their brutality was shaped by the devastation wrought by the long war against colonialism is equally certain. As is the undoubted fact that the Vietnamese had every reason to portray them as entirely sui generis, nothing to with us gov. But nonetheless there really is nothing quite like them in the whole rotten collection of Stalinist regimes. Compare their rule to that of the WPV or the Pathet Lao, all stemming from the same original party, all coming to power after devastating wars, all inexperienced. Yet their neighbours in different ways were rather obviously within the broad Stalinist mainstream, while the KR very quickly went haywire.



If you're doing so, then it would be silly to talk of the Vietnamese being inexperienced in war and government by the 1970s.  Unlike the CPK, they had had decades of struggle under their belt and practising government with the DRV.  Marxist-Leninist revolution (the Vietnamese version was of a Soviet-Chinese blend) within ex-Indochina came from them, yes.  And, after all, and as you said, the Cambodian and Laotian parties were originally formed by and were subordinate to the Vietnamese (in Cambodia's case the KPRP, and then in the 1960s the WPK).  That relations between the Cambodian and Vietnamese parties eventually broke down doesn't mean that they completely broke from the doctrine and its 'rules' originally laid out by them.  Its severity is partially explained by Sihanouk's outwardly friendly but inwardly repressive positions in the 1960s as the Vietnamese confronted the United States.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 1, 2014)

seventh bullet does this link work?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByuoxXBRjQoAM2Fablp2UlpEaDA/edit


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 1, 2014)

toblerone3 said:


> I don't really get this thread at all.



You don't get it? How do you think we feel?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 2, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I haven't read either. His Maoist history is vaguely referred to in the intro I think, saw it mentioned somewhere. I would be interested if you can get hold of copies.



Here's a PDF of the Cope book

Bromma coming later today.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 2, 2014)

And here's Bromma's Worker Elite In PDF and Epub formats


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 2, 2014)

For MTW feminism (or proletarian feminism, as some like to call it) there is Butch Lee and Red Rover's Nightvision: Illuminating War and Class on the Neocolonial Terrain.
Link to PDF


----------



## J Ed (Dec 7, 2014)

http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 7, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social


That is *amazing*


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 7, 2014)

imagine doing the 12 days of christmas song but having to remember all them in a list


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 7, 2014)

Each of these twelve adorable kittens was subject to a week-long, grueling interview process to ensure there was absolutely nothing problematic in its beliefs. Unlike bland, privileged garbage kittens chosen for nothing more than shallow good looks, Social Justice Kittens radiate fierce strength in the face of untold adversity, and all are gifted with a dazzling array of genders and orientations to go with their tiny, oh-so-kissable faces! *The patriarchy WILL NEVER accept these kittens! *


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 7, 2014)

June kitty is the best


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 7, 2014)

December for me.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 7, 2014)

April is the best


----------



## Favelado (Dec 7, 2014)

J Ed said:


> April is the best



The cruellest month.


----------



## JimW (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm appalled at the speciesist objectification and and whisker-shaming going on here.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 8, 2014)




----------



## Greebo (Dec 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social


I am so tempted to spread that around face ache for the element of WTAF. *sits on hands*


----------



## fractionMan (Dec 8, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/100268870650/liartownusa-has-always-celebrated-online-social



Are those real quotes?


----------



## fractionMan (Dec 8, 2014)

Has to be July.


----------



## rekil (Dec 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> Laurie back on form after trying to make a hero out of a nazi. Having a go at the real enemy. Horrid white socialists exploiting Ferguson to promote their brand.



And again. The number of leaflets and far left groups in Boston has apparently expanded since last time. (LP = E Jane Cochrane/Nellie Bly)



And here's a Boston SA leaflet on facebook. No idea if they're one of the guilty old white man parties or not, but how peculiar that this does not quite match the description LP is so keen to relay to her (white liberal) audience.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 8, 2014)

copliker said:


> And here's a Boston SA leaflet on facebook. No idea if they're one of the guilty old white man parties or not, but how peculiar that this does not quite match the description LP is so keen to relay to her (white liberal) audience



SA are the largest far left outfit in Boston, so the chances are good.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 8, 2014)

What is she even trying to get at with these lies? Being as direct as she is pretending they are seems clumsy, patronising and like bad politics but it isn't exactly wrong is it. These problems are the fault of both systemic racism and neoliberalism, both of these things are inseparable. Has she decided that capitalism isn't actually the problem or something? I knew she was on a trajectory towards becoming a Julie Burchill or whatever but has her time in America convinced her of the righteousness of the supremacy of her class this quickly?


----------



## fogbat (Dec 8, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> December for me.


I'd fuck any of them, tbh.


----------



## rekil (Dec 9, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> “An insane neonazi hacker threatens to destroy the intersectionalnet - and only two women stand in his way. But can ex-CIA hitwoman Laura Pennyred, who turned her back on the assassin's life to become the world's most successful academic in the history of media studies, and reformed art terrorist Malificent Croboppel, stop him in time?”


Uh oh.


> In the near future, the police state is veiled by an attention economy generating an endlessly diverting, vacuous spectacle which involves all the dwellers above its dungeons, via social media, in a narcissistic dance of ambition and performance.
> 
> Caroline Benjie is a naïve Candide come to the big city to find a life and career, like everyone else, through promotion via social media. She is living on the margins in Crown Heights when opportunity knocks, as it does in these times for young women who can attract eyeballs. Her newfound friend, the minicelebrity Amanda Abbey, arranges for her to work as a journalist at an up-and-coming radical publication, The Dilettante. Caroline is soon introduced into the murky and luxurious social circle orbiting the townhouse of Dan Hemingway, svengali of a hipster left media industry, where favours and strange errands are traded among the fashionable, well connected denizens. Caroline finds herself rising through the ranks of New York society, feted and showered with gifts and endless praise of her excellence. Is Empire a wonderful meritocracy after all, and is the insipid and unimaginative Caroline really the superior specimen of the species as she herself is increasingly convinced? Or is she a pawn chosen for her vanity and gullibility, a mere puppet in a spectacle behind which there are larger and by no means random forces at work? Is she delivering revolution to the people or is she selling the people bound hand and foot -- and strapped to electrical prods -- to her many anonymous sponsors?
> 
> E.M. Quangel's debut novel is a dystopic satirical spy novel, at once hilarious and harrowing while dissecting fame, fascism, revolution and reaction, in a future that is now.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 9, 2014)

ROYALTIES, MOTHERFUCKER


----------



## Greebo (Dec 9, 2014)

fogbat said:


> I'd fuck any of them, tbh.


With or without tape?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 9, 2014)

Greebo said:


> With or without tape?


 
with or without permission


----------



## Greebo (Dec 9, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> with or without permission


The last I heard, kittens weren't able to give permission.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 9, 2014)

((((consenting kittens))))

if only there was a group to stand up for the rights of kittens to have sex with adult men.


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 9, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> ((((consenting kittens))))
> 
> if only there was a group to stand up for the rights of kittens to have sex with adult men.


MKLA?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 9, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> MKLA?


 
i thought that was one of the Kurdish communist groups?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 9, 2014)




----------



## Bakunin (Dec 11, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> i thought that was one of the Kurdish communist groups?



Angola, wasn't it?

Holden Roberto's mob, aided by the not-at-all-sadistically homidical 'Colonel Callan.'


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 11, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Angola, wasn't it?
> 
> Holden Roberto's mob, aided by the not-at-all-sadistically homidical 'Colonel Callan.'



You're thinking of the MPLA. Roberto's group were the FNLA, who were ultimately crushed by the MPLA, who also tried and executed this 'Colonel Callan'.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 11, 2014)

Wasn't really sure where to put this but I suppose here is as good as anywhere

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...rve-working-class-culture-at-Millwall-FC.html



> *Sociology students' trip to observe 'working class culture' at Millwall FC*
> 
> To anyone else, a trip to a football match would merely be a chance to see some sport played.
> 
> ...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 11, 2014)

fucksake.  that makes me really angry.

i hope that the millwall fans fuck up their field trip somehow.  fucking pricks.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Wasn't really sure where to put this but I suppose here is as good as anywhere
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...rve-working-class-culture-at-Millwall-FC.html



Something tells me they probably don't need a field trip to see sexism and racism in action


----------



## The Boy (Dec 11, 2014)

Isn't that just some students who have managed to convince a gullible college to fork out on football tickets for them?


----------



## The Boy (Dec 11, 2014)

For the avoidance of doubt, the above was obviously a joke. The students are probably cunts.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2014)

The Boy said:


> Isn't that just some students who have managed to convince a gullible college to fork out on football tickets for them?



Also given the skyrocketing price of football tickets, there's an obvious flaw in their plan. 

Don't know about Millwall but there's very little tolerance for racist abuse etc at Wycombe.


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 11, 2014)

Lets go and observe the prole apes in the wild. Fuck off.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 11, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> You're thinking of the MPLA. Roberto's group were the FNLA, who were ultimately crushed by the MPLA, who also tried and executed this 'Colonel Callan'.



Yep, you are correct. Interestingly, 'Colonel Callan's' sister ended up marrying his chief prosecutor.

I've also been entirely blocked from following a certain Twitterati's feed for asking one inconvenient question, by the way.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 11, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Lets go and observe the prole apes in the wild. Fuck off.




the Alphas going to look at the Savage enclosure


----------



## campanula (Dec 11, 2014)

Unless the school has undergone a radical transformation, Varndean college was hardly some elite private institution - pretty prole-y tbh (alongside its near rival, Dorothy Stringer)...so I am thinking rather more along the lines of studenty scamming and a very basic sociology curriculum - I very much doubt some sneering exercise is the case.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 12, 2014)

The 'American Express Community Stadium.' When the fuck did that happen?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 12, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> The 'American Express Community Stadium.' When the fuck did that happen?


 
couple of years it's been like that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 12, 2014)

The Boy said:


> For the avoidance of doubt, the above was obviously a joke. The students are probably cunts.



The students are just 6th-form students. It's whoever put the syllabus for the sociology AS Level who's the cunt, especially as their notions of the students conducting ethnographic research in an environment that will supposedly *absolutely* expose them to "racism, sexism and hyper-masculinity" are assumptions on the part of the person who set the syllabus, *not* a "general rule" for attendance at Millwall matches (or any other soccer team's matches for that matter).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 12, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Lets go and observe the prole apes in the wild. Fuck off.



That's pretty much what it reduces to.
That and the assumption that people attending soccer matches are proles and/or apes. *This* proletarian hasn't been able to afford a ticket for at least the last ten years.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 12, 2014)

As BHAFC season ticket holders both I and Louis Jnr will be attending tonight's fixture where we will be performing 'hyper masculinity' for the benefit of the Varndean 6th formers.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 12, 2014)

As an aside the comparison between Newcastle and Millwall taunts towards Seagulls fans is entertaining...well they made me smile being on the receiving end.

Millwall: 'What's it like, what's it like, what's it like to fuck a boy?' 

Newcastle Utd: 'You're just bi-curious, you're just bi-curious....'


Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## J Ed (Dec 12, 2014)

*7 Female CEOs Who Inspire Us All To Be Cogs In The Capitalist Machine*


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 13, 2014)

very good!


----------



## J Ed (Dec 13, 2014)

J Ed said:


> *7 Female CEOs Who Inspire Us All To Be Cogs In The Capitalist Machine*



I didn't realise how great The Onion is


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 13, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> As BHAFC season ticket holders both I and Louis Jnr will be attending tonight's fixture where we will be performing 'hyper masculinity' for the benefit of the Varndean 6th formers.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Well that was pretty awful; Millwall were poor but we were worse and there were various bits and pieces of crowd trouble at both ends so at least the Varndean students got to see some 'hyper masculinity' on display.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Dec 13, 2014)

I really did Laugh Out Loud at that Onion video.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 13, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Well that was pretty awful; Millwall were poor but we were worse and there were various bits and pieces of crowd trouble at both ends so at least the Varndean students got to see some 'hyper masculinity' on display.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


YOU'RE GOING HOME IN A SOCIOLOGY DEPARTMENT MINIBUS


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 13, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Lets go and observe the prole apes in the wild. Fuck off.



Fifty years out of date. How would you differentiate the working class apes from the middle class apes?


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 13, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Fifty years out of date. How would you differentiate the working class apes from the middle class apes?



It was the offensive social assumptions of the twat who set the syllabus with regard to class I was mocking in my post.  I think me and that person would differ in our conceptualisations of social class.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 13, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> It was the offensive social assumptions of the twat who set the syllabus with regard to class I was mocking in my post.  I think me and that person would differ in our conceptualisations of social class.



I'd differ in my conceptualisation of hyper-masculinity, which you're unlikely to see at a match supported by shandy-swigging southern ponces. Old Trafford tomorrow on the other hand will have the real McCoy.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 13, 2014)

What is 'hyper-masculinity' anyway? It sounds like mass competitive male masturbation


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 13, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What is 'hyper-masculinity' anyway? It sounds like mass competitive male masturbation



Pseudo masturbation, to be more precise.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 13, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What is 'hyper-masculinity' anyway? It sounds like mass competitive male masturbation



When you're well hard because all your mates are with you.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 13, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> I'd differ in my conceptualisation of hyper-masculinity, which you're unlikely to see at a match supported by shandy-swigging southern ponces. Old Trafford tomorrow on the other hand will have the real McCoy.



You're offering up Man Utd v Liverpool as a game not supported by southerners?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 13, 2014)

Belushi said:


> When you're well hard because all your mates are with you.



And middle class people never have this? What about all those rapey fraternities at certain universities etc?


----------



## Belushi (Dec 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And middle class people never have this? What about all those rapey fraternities at certain universities etc?



Yes but when middle class youngsters behave like that it's just youthful high-jinks.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 13, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Yes but when middle class youngsters behave like that it's just youthful high-jinks.



Yea it's alright to be a rugby twat


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 13, 2014)

Amanda Palmer comes out swinging:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...almer-art-business-difficult-honest-decisions


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 13, 2014)

Also, working class women can't like football?


----------



## Celyn (Dec 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> YOU'RE GOING HOME IN A SOCIOLOGY DEPARTMENT MINIBUS



Beautiful!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 14, 2014)

artists


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 14, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> I'd differ in my conceptualisation of hyper-masculinity, which you're unlikely to see at a match supported by *shandy-swigging southern ponces*. Old Trafford tomorrow on the other hand will have the real McCoy.



That'll be real ale quaffing dilettantes to you sonny!



Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 15, 2014)

Worrying lack of commentariat love for “police-hating poet” Eric Linkser, a “Brooklyn bard who cops say was at the center of a violent protest Saturday night on the Brooklyn Bridge was once known more for his erotic poetry interspersed with expletives aimed at the police”.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ked-cops-face-arrested-nypd-article-1.2044906

PLEASE HAMMER DON'T HURT THEM!


----------



## fogbat (Dec 15, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What is 'hyper-masculinity' anyway? It sounds like mass competitive male masturbation


Shippy / manga etc


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Spunky biscuit / Shippy / manga etc



Fixed that for you.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 16, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Amanda Palmer comes out swinging:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...almer-art-business-difficult-honest-decisions



In which Amanda says:

"I launched my now-infamous Kickstarter for my own album, tour and art book in 2012 and, while it grossed over $1.2m, it netted – when all was said and done – close to zero."

I've got that album. It's dire.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 19, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fixed that for you.



I think my ex girlfriend has that manga.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 20, 2014)

There seems to be some really unpleasant transphobia on some of these tumblr feminist sites, but directed against trans men who are 'letting the side down' and 'gaining male privilege' and it seems to be justified on a 'political' basis. 

Er...


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 20, 2014)

isn't that the whole TERF thing? or is it normally aimed at m2f people?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 20, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> isn't that the whole TERF thing? or is it normally aimed at m2f people?



No, this is different because people who aren't terfs are joining in with it. Although the terfs are part of it as well. They're saying that if you are a trans guy you have got male privilege and people can't be prejudiced against you because misandry doesn't exist, even when going on to say something completely prejudiced.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 20, 2014)

http://tranifesto.com/2013/04/15/ask-matt-trans-man-troubles/

Just found this


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 20, 2014)

In any case I am pretty sure that misandry does exist but it's a result of patriarchy isn't it? Ie men being expected to be strong and suppress their emotions, being afraid to go to the docs over things like testicular cancer etc. That's a bad effect of patriarchal attitudes on men


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> In any case I am pretty sure that misandry does exist but it's a result of patriarchy isn't it? Ie men being expected to be strong and suppress their emotions, being afraid to go to the docs over things like testicular cancer etc. That's a bad effect of patriarchal attitudes on men


put very simple its entirely possible to called a faggot for not doing what our society shows us to be male things- if you don't measure up to that you are a faggot, a fanny, all those feminizing/homophobic terms which basically mean 'not worthy of the cock you own, must be a shirtlifter'. Its the male version/ counterweight to structural enforcements of gender and sexuality more often and obviously visited upon sistrens I suppose


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 21, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Amanda Palmer comes out swinging:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...almer-art-business-difficult-honest-decisions


God, that's just a pathetic whine - "why are all these people being horrid to me about not paying people"


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 23, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> I distinctly remember hearing the phrase "acquiring male privilege" used against FtM trans people on twitter last year if that's of any interest



This is the sort of thing I have read in the last few days and been horrified by. If you want to see some really nasty examples of this you don't have to look very far unfortunately. I'm not going to link to any of it but check out the 'truscum debate' ugh.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 24, 2014)

sometimes i feel a bit sorry for laurie penny. her oft-publicised pro-sex work choosy choicy liberalism is being challenged by a former prostitute who says that her experience doesn't match penny's ideas.  the poor woman doesn't want to either retract her hip liberal stance, or tell rachel moran that her experience isn't valid to her opinions.  so she squirms and prevaricates.  it must be difficult being a brand sometimes.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 24, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> sometimes i feel a bit sorry for laurie penny. her oft-publicised pro-sex work choosy choicy liberalism is being challenged by a former prostitute who says that her experience doesn't match penny's ideas.  the poor woman doesn't want to either retract her hip liberal stance, or tell rachel moran that her experience isn't valid to her opinions.  so she squirms and prevaricates.  it must be difficult being a brand sometimes.




That whole conversation is worth reading. I note that nobody really offers a straight answer to "if sex work is just work, and there's nothing inherently degrading about it, you'd be willing to try a few weeks in a brothel, right?"

Top marks for "choosy choicey liberalism"


----------



## J Ed (Dec 24, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That whole conversation is worth reading. I note that nobody really offers a straight answer to "if sex work is just work, and there's nothing inherently degrading about it, you'd be willing to try a few weeks in a brothel, right?"
> 
> Top marks for "choosy choicey liberalism"



It's a complicated issue and I can see why both sides are right re: prostitution but one thing that I hope that we can all agree on is that only one participant in that conversation should be writing and the other should shut the fuck up and listen/read.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 24, 2014)

Oooh look at me I've had sex therefore I understand all the ethical dimensions of prostitution.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 24, 2014)

?


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 24, 2014)

J Ed said:


> ?


Ffs


----------



## rekil (Dec 24, 2014)

Lots of zingers in this piece by LP.



> The voices and opinions of sex workers, however, are usually silenced in "mainstream" debates about prostitution.





> [...]it's the "sex" part of those activities that really causes knickers to be twisted in the icy corridors of bourgeois moral opprobrium.





> Laws regulating sex work are written, in most cases, by people who have never done sex work and who have no sustained contact with those who do.


Note how the latter clause allows Laurie to insert herself as an authority. Them law squares don't even tweet obsequiously at stoya.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 25, 2014)

copliker said:


> Lots of zingers in this piece by LP.
> Note how the latter clause allows Laurie to insert herself as an authority. Them law squares don't even tweet obsequiously at stoya.


The following bit stood out most for me:


> So-called 'radical' feminist groups point to high rates of rape and assault experienced by sex workers as if this were an inevitable, natural consequence of selling sexual services rather than an atrocious working condition made actively worse by the fact that so many sex workers are even more afraid than other women to report their rapists to the police - particularly if they are black, Asian or transsexual. It’s as if someone who sells sex should have no expectation of consent at work.



Now, I haven't personally polled sex workers on this but I was always under the impression that it's not that they were necessarily more afraid to report their rapist to the police, but that one factor is the attitudes of the police towards sex workers i.e. it's an occupational hazard of the job, can't rape a prostitute, the usual tired myths. There's not one single reason why a woman doesn't report a rapist, but it's well documented that police attitudes and prosecution rates are certainly key.

It's just another piece of her writing, this week's latest key issues to be taken up by her.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 25, 2014)

soi disant again


----------



## J Ed (Dec 25, 2014)

Millionaire pornstars in the US who have a financial interest in saying that they enjoy sex work say that they enjoy sex work and Laurie has hung out with them while spending time with other millionaires. "Sustained social contact" with one kind of sex worker confers a full understanding of the experiences of all sex workers. Fuck the opinions of the vast majority of poor women in sex work.

It's almost as if there is some sort of lens of class privilege through which Laurie sees debates like these which blinds her to the experiences of the majority of sex workers and indeed the majority of people.


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 25, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Millionaire pornstars in the US who have a financial interest in saying that they enjoy sex work say that they enjoy sex work and Laurie has hung out with them while spending time with other millionaires. "Sustained social contact" with one kind of sex worker confers a full understanding of the experiences of all sex workers. Fuck the opinions of the vast majority of poor women in sex work.
> 
> It's almost as if there is some sort of lens of class privilege through which Laurie sees debates like these which blinds her to the experiences of the majority of sex workers and indeed the majority of people.



Spot on. I may come back on this tomorrow if I have time but for now will observe that she is treating the category 'sex worker' as unitary and unproblematic when it is anything but. And as you point out taking certain voices as paradigmatic of the category - i.e Stoya and the like. The quest for subcultural capital trumps any kind of analysis that might disrupt that quest, as always with Laurie Penny.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 25, 2014)

The Pale King said:


> Spot on. I may come back on this tomorrow if I have time but for now will observe that she is treating the category 'sex worker' as unitary and unproblematic when it is anything but. And as you point out taking certain voices as paradigmatic of the category - i.e Stoya and the like. The quest for subcultural capital trumps any kind of analysis that might disrupt that quest, as always with Laurie Penny.


addiction never plays a part in the trendy liberated sex worker narrative. It can't. To acknowledge it would mean acknowledging that coercion not choice is the driver for most sex work outside of laurie approved burlesque and monetized hotness. Strange when in any other industry the drivers are well recognized and lamented at by that crowd. It's not a far mirror from some pretty woman tart with a heart crude drawing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The following bit stood out most for me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





DotCommunist said:


> soi disant again


Also the sneery quote marks around ‘radical’ seem - to me at least - to indicate that she doesn't understand the particular meaning underlying the term ‘radical feminism’ when considered alongside other distinct feminisms.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 25, 2014)

it means feminists who have disagreed with me rather than inheritors to third wave


----------



## J Ed (Dec 25, 2014)

'Radical' feminism vs 'I have sex, watch a bit of porn and chatted with Stoya in an art gallery so I totes understand what it's like working in a brothel in Phuket or wherever' feminism


----------



## rekil (Dec 27, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The following bit stood out most for me:
> 
> 
> Now, I haven't personally polled sex workers on this but I was always under the impression that it's not that they were necessarily more afraid to report their rapist to the police, but that one factor is the attitudes of the police towards sex workers i.e. it's an occupational hazard of the job, can't rape a prostitute, the usual tired myths. There's not one single reason why a woman doesn't report a rapist, but it's well documented that police attitudes and prosecution rates are certainly key.
> ...


How Laurie flounced from that row so she could go and bang on about doctor fucking who. It was an interview with Taz.de that prompted this exchange I think. it's interesting to contrast how she claims to deal with sex workers there (last para) with how she chose to treat Rachel Moran whose 7 years experience from age 15 to 22 is waved away as "dogma", just like that. So much for privilege checking, intersectionality etc.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 27, 2014)

She's a serial liar, a fake 'Prada-Meinhof' radical, arrogant, hypocritical, ignorant, self-serving hack. But that's nothing new.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 27, 2014)

dogma lol.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 27, 2014)

I think that by dogma she means identifiable principles. It is absolutely possible to persuade someone to shift, alter or reframe their principles through reasoned debate though less easy perhaps than it is to get someone to adopt or abandon platitudes which are held purely to accumulate subcultural capital.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 27, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I think that by dogma she means identifiable principles. It is absolutely possible to persuade someone to shift, alter or reframe their principles through reasoned debate though less easy perhaps than it is to get someone to adopt or abandon platitudes which are held purely to accumulate subcultural capital.


That's a great piece of no-fucking-aroundery.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 27, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> dogma lol.




I was sold from the minute Chris Rock fell out of the sky. Oh and the bit with the shit-demon. And metatron.


----------



## rekil (Dec 27, 2014)

Btw, there's a bit from that Moran link that's pertinent to LP's flounce and her assertion in the NS that opposition to prostitution stems from prudishness ("the icy corridors of bourgeois moral opprobrium")



> Yet even faced with these bald truths, they tell us over and over that we are talking nonsense; that the opinions that have emerged from our own lived experience are nothing but propaganda sprung from some poisoned fountain of religious fundamentalist ideals.  But it is not so much what these happy hookers tell us that frame’s the bigger part of the picture; that is concealed by what they do not tell us.
> 
> They do not tell us – for the reason that they’d like to conceal it – about the same disconnect that academia isn’t telling us – because it is incapable of revealing it.
> 
> They do not tell us about the soul-level injury that capitalism and patriarchy have combined to create.  They do not tell us about that precise point at which female sexuality is severed from the self.  They do not tell us about what it means in the mind and the heart and the spirit, when you’ve been paid to say ‘yes’ and behave ‘yes’ and perform ‘yes’, so that you are mute – and rendered mute by the very reality of the transaction that has bought your silence – but everything non-audible that makes up who you are is silently screaming ‘NO’.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 27, 2014)

Bit essentialist. I thought she was one of dose _Jesuits _anyway?


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 27, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> She's a serial liar, a fake 'Prada-Meinhof' radical, arrogant, hypocritical, ignorant, self-serving hack. But that's nothing new.



She's the voice of a new genderation.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 27, 2014)

Dey paid me to tealk to shut me uyop.


----------



## rekil (Dec 27, 2014)

Jesuit jiggery pokery eh?


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 27, 2014)

copliker said:


> How Laurie flounced from that row so she could go and bang on about doctor fucking who.



I find it very hard not to post a Youtube clip of the song 'Run, Rabbit Run' at times like this.


----------



## FNG (Dec 28, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I think that by dogma she means identifiable principles. It is absolutely possible to persuade someone to shift, alter or reframe their principles through reasoned debate though less easy perhaps than it is to get someone to adopt or abandon platitudes which are held purely to accumulate subcultural capital.


PARKLIFE!


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 28, 2014)

LP seems obsessed with people calling her a 'bad feminist' (amongst other things). I'd say her particular brand of feminism is bad as it embraces capitalism, intersectionalism and ignorance in a dangerous mix.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 28, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> She's the voice of a new genderation.



Littlejohn of the Left, more like.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 29, 2014)

That Rachel Moran blog is heartbreaking.


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 30, 2014)

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...as-bad-nick-lezard-makes-out-so-i-went-see-it


> I looked about at the broken-backed furniture and the huge collection of valetudinarian “holiday” booze bottles some former flatmate had piled up in the nook by the book-filled fireplace


This *is* satire, right?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 30, 2014)

i think he's taking the piss out of lezard, but i can't be sure.  whether this lack of confidence in my interpretation is a failing of my reading comprehension or will self's writing, i wouldn't like to say.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 30, 2014)

Hold on... I thought one the of key components of her Harvard degree was that she not publish any journalistic pieces for a year?

http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/on-nerd-entitlement-rebel-alliance-empire


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Hold on... I thought one the of key components of her Harvard degree was that she not publish any journalistic pieces for a year?
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/on-nerd-entitlement-rebel-alliance-empire



Is this to do with gamergate? If so I probably agree with whatever she wants to say about nerd entitlement tbh.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 30, 2014)

Not GG, but broadly in that area. A reaction to this comment:

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 30, 2014)

it's a load of wet liberal self-pitying crap with a couple of digs at radical feminists.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2014)

the discussion is from gamegate but has moved on- theres this MIT bloke saying how nerdy lads are oppressed by etc I don't need to go into it all.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2014)

this is where the top trumps gets us btw


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 30, 2014)

Penny laments how women are shoe-horned into 'confessional' journalism but happily embellishes when it suits.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2014)

With all of these arguments (terfs, refusing to think that there is anything problematic about 'sex work', *some of* the terfs detractors who are using their total vileness as an excuse for misogyny) etc, I am becoming a bit embarrassed about saying that I am a feminist


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2014)

Is there a space any more within feminism for a class based approach about things that doesn't involve terfery or thinking that everything about sex work is great and everyone who does it is liberated? And some bollocks about killing all men? 

I honestly don't know.


----------



## killer b (Dec 30, 2014)

Both of those things are pretty extreme, so I'd say 'yes'.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> With all of these arguments (terfs, refusing to think that there is anything problematic about 'sex work', *some of* the terfs detractors who are using their total vileness as an excuse for misogyny) etc, I am becoming a bit embarrassed about saying that I am a feminist



This is one of the reasons why I don't call myself one.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> This is one of the reasons why I don't call myself one.



That and the fact you are a man and therefore an evil oppressor of all women


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That and the fact you are a man and therefore an evil oppressor of all women



Probably a rapist as well


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 30, 2014)

.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Probably a rapist as well


all men are etc


----------



## BigTom (Dec 30, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Probably a rapist as well



Your either a virgin or a rapist cos all m/f sex is rape in a patriarchal society 

(edit: or gay I guess, what do those rad fem types say about male gay sex? is that rape too?)


----------



## BigTom (Dec 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> all men are etc



damn you with your brevity and succinctness :shakes fist at DC:


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Your either a virgin or a rapist cos all m/f sex is rape in a patriarchal society
> 
> (edit: or gay I guess, what do those rad fem types say about male gay sex? is that rape too?)



I saw a terf saying that dilsos were a male plot as well


----------



## killer b (Dec 30, 2014)

Surely all that terf bullshit it the equivalent of the all men are rapist crap of feminism past: Nonsense nutty fringe stuff waved around by feminisms enemies as evidence of the movement as a whole's nuttiness.

Just ignore it and do some real politics instead. Its a waste of your mental energy giving it any time at all.


----------



## fogbat (Dec 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I saw a terf saying that dilsos were a male plot as well


Gateway phalluses. (Phalli? )


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 30, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Gateway phalluses. (Phalli? )


Fake penises  (© my mum, c. 1994)


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Gateway phalluses. (Phalli? )


phalluses


----------



## fogbat (Dec 30, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Fake penises  (© my mum, c. 1994)


Jeremy Kyle should do a special. Update her knowledge.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 30, 2014)

killer b said:


> Surely all that terf bullshit it the equivalent of the all men are rapist crap of feminism past: Nonsense nutty fringe stuff waved around by feminisms enemies as evidence of the movement as a whole's nuttiness.
> 
> Just ignore it and do some real politics instead. Its a waste of your mental energy giving it any time at all.



all politics has some idiots attached.  feminism has these idiots.  don't worry about them, they make a lot of noise but there's not really that many of them compared to sensible marxist-feminists (or even liberal choosy choicey feminists).


----------



## YouSir (Dec 30, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> all politics has some idiots attached.  feminism has these idiots.  don't worry about them, they make a lot of noise but there's not really that many of them compared to sensible marxist-feminists (or even liberal choosy choicey feminists).



They are often louder though. Unfortunately.


----------



## toggle (Dec 30, 2014)

killer b said:


> Surely all that terf bullshit it the equivalent of the all men are rapist crap of feminism past: Nonsense nutty fringe stuff waved around by feminisms enemies as evidence of the movement as a whole's nuttiness.
> 
> Just ignore it and do some real politics instead. Its a waste of your mental energy giving it any time at all.



it's not so bad when ti's terf crap being waved about by MRAs as evidence we're all nutters. the worst bit is terf/political lesbian fucknuts -  like brennan working with a voice for men and other mra fucknuts. while still claiming to be radical feminists


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2014)

Why did she do that?  


toggle said:


> it's not so bad when ti's terf crap being waved about by MRAs as evidence we're all nutters. the worst bit is terf/political lesbian fucknuts -  like brennan working with a voice for men and other mra fucknuts. while still claiming to be radical feminists


----------



## toggle (Dec 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> It's a complicated issue and I can see why both sides are right re: prostitution but one thing that I hope that we can all agree on is that only one participant in that conversation should be writing and the other should shut the fuck up and listen/read.



Just skimmed back over this. I suppose that depends on whether you believe the allegations that Moran didn't write the book.


----------



## toggle (Dec 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Why did she do that?



brennan? she's absoolutely obsessed with penises. and I mean utterly fucking obsessed, particularly with penises that are/were attached to transwomen. she's got it into her head that the only reason any 'man' would put themselves through assessments, treatments, surgery, societal condemnation, abuse, sometimes life threatening, is so they can -penetrate- women only space and have sex with lesbians. because she thinks transwomen are as obsessed with lesbian's cunts as she is with transwomen's penises. and she will ally herself with any kind of fucknut and cross any line of accetable behavior to abuse transwomen. including harassing transwomen's doctors, instigating harassment campaigns against trans* teens who are still underage and in school, harassing employers who don't discriminate against trans* employees. and she has shown herself willing to work with MRA groups like AVFM and with religious right groups. 

when I say there are some utter fucking arsehole fucknuts who call themselves feminist and who never fucking ever will speak for me, it's cunts like brennan i'm thinking of. 

and yes, I know that's all a pretty blunt phrasing. a dn 'man' is in quote marks because that's the way she thinks of transwomen, not the way i do. 

oh yes, shes a cunt


----------



## Greebo (Dec 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> phalluses


fallacious phalluses


----------



## J Ed (Dec 30, 2014)

toggle said:


> Just skimmed back over this. I suppose that depends on whether you believe the allegations that Moran didn't write the book.



Just had a quick google. Yikes.


----------



## toggle (Dec 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Just had a quick google. Yikes.



lot of stuff out there. i've been aware of that for a while, but IDK enough to say any more than the allegations exist.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2014)

I know who i believe, tbh.  the pro-sex work lobby are some of the most dishonest, misogynist, free-market abuse apologists i've ever come across.  my limited experience of support work with prostituted women in luton and lambeth has already taught me that most of what they claim about sex-work is nonsense.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 31, 2014)

#thistweetcalledmyback anyone been following this?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> I know who i believe, tbh.  the pro-sex work lobby are some of the most dishonest, misogynist, free-market abuse apologists i've ever come across.  my limited experience of support work with prostituted women in luton and lambeth has already taught me that most of what they claim about sex-work is nonsense.



Yep.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 31, 2014)

toggle said:


> Just skimmed back over this. I suppose that depends on whether you believe the allegations that Moran didn't write the book.



Really? I've not heard this before.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2014)

I'll believe she did write it until proven otherwise tbh


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 31, 2014)

is there any actual evidence that she didn't?


----------



## agricola (Dec 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> I know who i believe, tbh.  the pro-sex work lobby are some of the most dishonest, misogynist, free-market abuse apologists i've ever come across.  my limited experience of support work with prostituted women in luton and lambeth has already taught me that most of what they claim about sex-work is nonsense.



This, though of course that is one of those issues where both sides are probably wrong (or at least what they are proposing is wrong).


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 31, 2014)

For those who don't follow US left / identity politics twitter, an explanation: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30542768


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2014)

Besides plenty of writers of 'misery memoirs' and the like get help to write them, for reasons for literacy, articculacy and the like, it doesn't mean that it is all bollocks and there are enough women commenting on her blog and other independently verified evidence to make me believe it


----------



## caleb (Dec 31, 2014)

I think a lot of the pro-sex work stuff - the stuff that isn't just an edgy stance, which is something else entirely - from feminists comes from the understandable realisation that sex work will exist and that if it does exist, it should exist safely. Making sex work illegal will not lead to an end to sex work but only make it more dangerous and further, may deny some women of their only source of income. So far, sensible. The English Collective of Prostitutes realised this and had the slogan 'For Prostitutes, Against Prostitution', which is great because it also points to a world without, y'know, work. We can work towards better conditions for sex workers whilst also saying sex work is shit, because if sex work isn't shit then what's the point campaigning for better conditions? 

It seems to me that the desire the present sex work in a positive, liberating light comes from a reaction against those who wish to make it illegal - which seems understandable, if misguided to me - but also a belief that not doing so necessarily implies that women involved in sex work are victims, forced into sex work with no choice. So choice, liberation, autonomy, etc. must be emphasised. This, to me, seems highly questionable in many respects. Taken to its logical conclusion the same sort of argument could be drawn out to argue that criticism of _any _sort of work in capitalist society necessarily infantilises those who work, reduces their autonomy, etc. Drawn out, defence of sex work as work can become a defence of wage labour in general very easily, imo.

Like a lot of the intersectionalist / twitter left stuff, and again, assuming the best intentions on the part of those who hold these beliefs, for a moment, there's a sensible starting point, or at least an understandable one. But these starting points are drawn to weird conclusions and, actually, weird conclusions that wouldn't be too strange, shorn of all the edgy rhetoric, coming from the right.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2014)

None of the ECP were english or prostitutes though - and they weren't a collective. 3 words 3 lies. They were trying to take ownership of others struggles by using that name.


----------



## caleb (Dec 31, 2014)

I once read a tweet along the lines of 'any time you criticise a woman's decision, you're criticising all women', the suggestion being that all choices and decisions a woman makes are potentially liberating. I don't understand how anybody could hold such a position and also a critique of patriarchy / captialism/ society / the state. The person also claimed to be a Marxist. It's an odd thing.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2014)

Really? Are there any links about this?


----------



## caleb (Dec 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> None of the ECP were english or prostitutes though - and they weren't a collective. 3 words 3 lies. They were trying to take ownership of others struggles.



Perhaps, I really don't know anything about them, I think I saw that line in a Selma James book. It seems far better to me than a lot of the current pro-sex work stuff, however.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2014)

caleb said:


> I once read a tweet along the lines of 'any time you criticise a woman's decision, you're criticising all women', the suggestion being that all choices and decisions a woman makes are potentially liberating. I don't understand how anybody could hold such a position and also a critique of patriarchy / captialism/ society / the state. The person also claimed to be a Marxist. It's an odd thing.



So if you criticise thatchers decisions you're criticising all women?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2014)

caleb said:


> Perhaps, I really don't know anything about them, I think I saw that line in a Selma James book. It seems far better to me than a lot of the current pro-sex work stuff, however.


No perhaps about it. 

Nothing wrong with the line - nothing wrong with the approach. And yes,it was probably mentioned in the recent selma james collection through the wages for housework connection. An odd time - the demands were clashing - wages for housework/no wages/zero-work/more wages/more work for more workers/less work for more pay/new workers.


----------



## krink (Dec 31, 2014)

i just googled 'terf' 
is that really a thing outside of twitter/tumblr?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2014)

agricola said:


> This, though of course that is one of those issues where both sides are probably wrong (or at least what they are proposing is wrong).



you mean that paying for sex should be neither legal nor illegal?


----------



## toggle (Dec 31, 2014)

krink said:


> i just googled 'terf'
> is that really a thing outside of twitter/tumblr?



it's a thing in that they claim to be more pure feminists than the rest of us, by shitting on people more vulnerable to prove their credentials. they are thankfully a minority, sort of a vestigial second wave leftover while the world moved on to take more considered positions. IDK and never have known anyone who takes them seriously, but as in all groups, the stinkiest shit gets the most notice, so they have an impact louder than they should do.

did I mention that they are cunts?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2014)

I suspect that I lived with a terf once.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2014)

what did you feed it?


----------



## toggle (Dec 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> what did you feed it?



no. i'm not goin to reply. I'm not. I'm not nearly pissed enough to actually say what i'm thinking


----------



## red & green (Dec 31, 2014)

Lp seems to be stuck in her adolescence - I don't know what she is talking about most of the time and object to her making generalisations about women as if she speaks for all


----------



## agricola (Dec 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> you mean that paying for sex should be neither legal nor illegal?



Not really - TBH I think the current state of English and Welsh law with regards to that business is probably as sensible as it is possible to be.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2014)

agricola said:


> Not really - TBH I think the current state of English and Welsh law with regards to that business is probably as sensible as it is possible to be.



you must really hate desperate and vulnerable women


----------



## agricola (Dec 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> you must really hate desperate and vulnerable women



Not sure how you work that one out; of all the things that might help people in that situation, _"changing the law slightly"_ must be some way down the list of things that would be effective.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2014)

everything is peachy, yeah?


----------



## agricola (Dec 31, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> everything is peachy, yeah?



Of course it isnt.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> what did you feed it?



She was the one who wanted me to pay for organic washing powder.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> She was the one who wanted me to pay for organic washing powder.


oh my days, the organic freak green. Cleaning products too wasn't it? lol


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

toggle said:


> no. i'm not goin to reply. I'm not. I'm not nearly pissed enough to actually say what i'm thinking



I suspect she was terf because of the things she said. I remember her telling me about a helpline set up for men who were the victims of domestic violence and it being discovered that most of the men ringing the helpline were the perpetrators or were making it up. Now I know this does happen in many cases but the point of the story seemed to be that if a man says that he is the victim of DV then it shouldn't be believed. The organisation that she was working with also at that time only had a policy of providing services to women born as women, at least it had on the local level. Perhaps that policy has changed (it definitely has on a national level, I fucking hope so) but a few things she said led me to think that she probably agreed with it. However the topic of transgender people never came up so don't know for sure.

I don't think she was a bad person, her stances had been formed by some of the experiences she'd had, she was an awful landlord though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

On the other hand some of the trans activists seem to be just as bad frankly. Identity politics is so fucking toxic.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 1, 2015)

The NS are gross. Well known transphobe writes this piece: 
If you believe trans lives matter, don't share Leelah Alcorn's suicide note on social media

http://www.newstatesman.com/sarah-d...dont-share-leelah-alcorns-suicide-note-social

The gall of it. Her note was meant to raise awareness of why so many trans* people are hounded into suicide.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> The NS are gross. Well known transphobe writes this piece:
> If you believe trans lives matter, don't share Leelah Alcorn's suicide note on social media
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/sarah-d...dont-share-leelah-alcorns-suicide-note-social
> ...




Is Sarah Ditum terf isn't she? And she posted her suicide note online in a public forum so of course people are going to read it.


----------



## toggle (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> On the other hand some of the trans activists seem to be just as bad frankly. Identity politics is so fucking toxic.



decending into the worst arseholes on all sides screaming abuse at each other while the rest of us duck the missiles and try to remind people that arseholes don't speak for us?


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Is Sarah Ditum terf isn't she? And she posted her suicide note online in a public forum so of course people are going to read it.



Yep. Ditum is a well known TERF. Christ, they are taking the piss getting her to write that article.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Yep. Ditum is a well known TERF. Christ, they are taking the piss getting her to write that article.



Why did they ask her to write it? 

It's just clickbait isn't it?


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 1, 2015)

Shameless clickbait. Using the Samaritans guidelines to shut down the debate about trans suicide rates is fucking disgusting.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 1, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Shameless clickbait. Using the Samaritans guidelines to shut down the debate about trans suicide rates is fucking disgusting.



Puts me in mind of a certain NS writer who was once asked not to run a story by the Samaritans, but then went and ran it anyway.

Now who could that be?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Is Sarah Ditum terf isn't she? And she posted her suicide note online in a public forum so of course people are going to read it.



Judging by the content of it I'd say she wanted as many people as possible to read it in order to get the message out - that alone is reason enough to post it IMO


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 1, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Puts me in mind of a certain NS writer who was once asked not to run a story by the Samaritans, but then went and ran it anyway.
> 
> Now who could that be?



The NS is full of toxic writers. Must be part of the job description.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 1, 2015)

Terf Ditum


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Terf Ditum




What are they worried about with the whole women's space thing? There are so few M to F people around, who want to live as women full time let alone medically transition. I don't understand why it's an issue. 

There are men who pose as women online to speak to lesbians and bi women (and I had a lot of attention from these sorts of men when I was younger) but I am willing to bet that none were transgender or willing to have a surgical procedure to make them female, or even transition socially the way trans women do. 

I can't understand why they are getting upset over it. The misogyny and homophobia that is around has very little to do with transgender women (many of whom are straight!)


----------



## toggle (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> What are they worried about with the whole women's space thing? There are so few M to F people around, who want to live as women full time let alone medically transition. I don't understand why it's an issue.
> 
> There are men who pose as women online to speak to lesbians and bi women (and I had a lot of attention from these sorts of men when I was younger) but I am willing to bet that none were transgender or willing to have a surgical procedure to make them female, or even transition socially the way trans women do.
> 
> I can't understand why they are getting upset over it. The misogyny and homophobia that is around has very little to do with transgender women (many of whom are straight!)



i'm loathe to tag someone nto this thread because they are trans, but they did mention a possible shift in orientation during transition. no idea whetehr their expereinces are common, but it makes the whole transition because of lesbian cunt obsession even more bollocks.

AuntiStella thanks for the Ok, if you can add anyhting to any of this, it would be appreciated


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

toggle said:


> i'm loathe to tag someone nto this thread because they are trans, but they did mention a possible shift in orientation during transition. no idea whetehr their expereinces are common, but it makes the whole transition because of lesbian cunt obsession even more bollocks.



It doesn't make any sense at all. If someone visibly dresses as the opposite sex then they are obviously going to attract a huge amount of abuse, why would anyone go to such lengths?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

toggle said:


> i'm loathe to tag someone nto this thread because they are trans, but they did mention a possible shift in orientation during transition. no idea whetehr their expereinces are common, but it makes the whole transition because of lesbian cunt obsession even more bollocks.



Aren't most trans women straight anyway, I read a survey saying they were? Where does that come into it? I don't understand why they are so obsessed with it? Surely if someone wants to transition to the opposite sex that's up to them?


----------



## toggle (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> It doesn't make any sense at all. If someone visibly dresses as the opposite sex then they are obviously going to attract a huge amount of abuse, why would anyone go to such lengths?


this is why terf ideaology does not compute.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 1, 2015)

I find ditum describing people as 'male women' quite offensive. One, a woman is a woman and using the term 'male' is divisive and serves only to introduce a fake hierarchy where none exists or is even required.

Women need to act together whether cis or trans.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I find ditum describing people as 'male women' quite offensive. One, a woman is a woman and using the term 'male' is divisive and serves only to introduce a fake hierarchy where none exists or is even required.
> 
> Women need to act together whether cis or trans.


Its supposed to be offensive. Its to say 'I don't grant you the gender you are, you're a bloke in a dress'. Just because its not hur huring about big hands/adams apple and is dressed in jargon doesn't mean its not pretty much the same thing imho


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Its supposed to be offensive. Its to say 'I don't grant you the gender you are, you're a bloke in a dress'. Just because its not hur huring about big hands/adams apple and is dressed in jargon doesn't mean its not pretty much the same thing imho



Journalistically speaking it's called a 'hatchet job.' To the rest of us it's a turd with sprinkles on it.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> What are they worried about with the whole women's space thing? There are so few M to F people around, who want to live as women full time let alone medically transition. I don't understand why it's an issue.
> 
> There are men who pose as women online to speak to lesbians and bi women (and I had a lot of attention from these sorts of men when I was younger) but I am willing to bet that none were transgender or willing to have a surgical procedure to make them female, or even transition socially the way trans women do.
> 
> I can't understand why they are getting upset over it. The misogyny and homophobia that is around has very little to do with transgender women (many of whom are straight!)




there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular who are trying to access their partners or other vulnerable women.  we had a client last year who claimed t be transgender and was trying to get a court order so that he could live in a women's hostel and had tried to take the prison service to court to put him in women's prison.  he was returned to prison because he groomed a vulnerable underage teenage girl online and she ran away from home to be with him - she was found in his hostel room.  this guy is a serial sex offender whose MO is to seek out vulnerable women and to try and use the system to gain access to women.   if claiming to be transgender is enough to get you into a women-only safe space, this man is allowed in.   he's not the only one in london, sadly.  i'm told that one of london's sexual violence support services has a ban list containing dozens of individuals who are known to have done this at some time.  

if you say cis-women only for safer spaces you exclude vulnerable transgender women who need safe spaces. 

if you allow access to safer-spaces to anyone who claims to be transgender _on trust_, you're _potentially_ allowing the wolf into the fold.

many womens' organisations these days allow access to transwomen with a gender recognition certificate but not those without - this is criticised because getting transitioned is long and hard and thus they might be refusing services to transwomen in need.  others require that you pass as woman - also risking refusing service to vulnerable people.  

some have suggested that there should be more specialised sexual violence, counselling, housing etc services especially for transgender people, but does this risk ghettoising?

i dunno, i'm rambling now.  but we need to ensure that women's rights are not subordinate to transgender rights, or vice versa.  we need to recognise that there can be conflicts of interests.  i;m not a liberal, but taking a terf position is wrong, and so is allowing transrights to trump women's rights as some demand.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 1, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular who are trying to access their partners or other vulnerable women.  we had a client last year who claimed t be transgender and was trying to get a court order so that he could live in a women's hostel and had tried to take the prison service to court to put him in women's prison.  he was returned to prison because he groomed a vulnerable underage teenage girl online and she ran away from home to be with him - she was found in his hostel room.  this guy is a serial sex offender whose MO is to seek out vulnerable women and to try and use the system to gain access to women.   if claiming to be transgender is enough to get you into a women-only safe space, this man is allowed in.   he's not the only one in london, sadly.  i'm told that one of london's sexual violence support services has a ban list containing dozens of individuals who are known to have done this at some time.
> 
> if you say cis-women only for safer spaces you exclude vulnerable transgender women who need safe spaces.
> 
> ...



Fucking hell  minefield innit? The only thing I'm really sure of is that this transphobic terf stuff is definitely not the answer and its advocates are, as toggle said, a bunch of cunts.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 1, 2015)

SpineyNorman said:


> Fucking hell  minefield innit? The only thing I'm really sure of is that this transphobic terf stuff is definitely not the answer and its advocates are, as toggle said, a bunch of cunts.



i agree 100%.


----------



## toggle (Jan 1, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i dunno, i'm rambling now.  but we need to ensure that women's rights are not subordinate to transgender rights, or vice versa.  we need to recognise that there can be conflicts of interests.  i;m not a liberal, but taking a terf position is wrong, and so is allowing transrights to trump women's rights as some demand.



certainly the example you gave dosen't seem to be anyhting to do with actual transrights. and maintaining a list of those who attempt to abuse women's shelter provision to access vulnerable women seems to be a reasonable solution to this, provided the list isn't being maintained by a cunt.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

How easy it to get a gender recognition certificate?


----------



## toggle (Jan 1, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> How easy it to get a gender recognition certificate?



you're taking about a minimum of 2 years living as your chosen gender, providing evidence of that, plus evidence of diagnosis of gender dysphoria. and some combination of a spouse's permission and/or divorce.

I think the answer can be - it varies, but it's not easy and it will be necessarily harder for those without the finances to pay for paperwork


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

This is a very interesting site 

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/bailey-blanchard-lawrence.html


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2015)

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/wannabes.html this site covers quite similar ground to what you were saying el-ahrairah


----------



## smokedout (Jan 1, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular who are trying to access their partners or other vulnerable women.  we had a client last year who claimed t be transgender and was trying to get a court order so that he could live in a women's hostel and had tried to take the prison service to court to put him in women's prison.  he was returned to prison because he groomed a vulnerable underage teenage girl online and she ran away from home to be with him - she was found in his hostel room.  this guy is a serial sex offender whose MO is to seek out vulnerable women and to try and use the system to gain access to women.   if claiming to be transgender is enough to get you into a women-only safe space, this man is allowed in.   he's not the only one in london, sadly.  i'm told that one of london's sexual violence support services has a ban list containing dozens of individuals who are known to have done this at some time.



out of interest how do you know he/she was 'claiming' to be transgender?  it is just as possible for someone transgender to be a sex offender as it is a man or woman who is not trans.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 1, 2015)

smokedout said:


> out of interest how do you know he/she was 'claiming' to be transgender?  it is just as possible for someone transgender to be a sex offender as it is a man or woman who is not trans.



because part of my job involves reading casenotes and being aware of what care is being provided.  he was with us because he is a sex offender.  we have plenty of other sex offenders who are not trans.  his was just an interesting case.  

his psychiatric care team didn't believe he was "genuinely" transgender, btw.  they considered that this claim was part of a package of behaviours designed to gain access to vulnerable women and children.  unfortunately he's not the only one.  trans-rights activists often claim that we should take a person's gender as the one they claim - in the case of serial sex offenders like my former client, doing this would be a really bad idea.  that is why they are wrong that we shouldn't critically analyse individuals.  likewise, terf types would have you believe that all transpeople are like this, and this is incorrect and unfair too.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 1, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> because part of my job involves reading casenotes and being aware of what care is being provided.  he was with us because he is a sex offender.  we have plenty of other sex offenders who are not trans.  his was just an interesting case.
> 
> his psychiatric care team didn't believe he was "genuinely" transgender, btw.  they considered that this claim was part of a package of behaviours designed to gain access to vulnerable women and children.  unfortunately he's not the only one.  trans-rights activists often claim that we should take a person's gender as the one they claim - in the case of serial sex offenders like my former client, doing this would be a really bad idea.  that is why they are wrong that we shouldn't critically analyse individuals.  likewise, terf types would have you believe that all transpeople are like this, and this is incorrect and unfair too.



fair enough, it strikes me as very unusual, having looked into the terfs argument before i found barely any evidence of people living permanently and presenting as the opposite gender (which presumably he/she was doing if they were bringing court cases etc) to gain access to female only spaces to be sexually abusive.  I very much doubt agencies have lists of dozens of men doing this.

worth remembering as well that transgender is a very broad term encompassing everyone from drag queens to fetishistic cross dressers to people diagnosed as transsexual.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 1, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> trans-rights activists often claim that we should take a person's gender as the one they claim - in the case of serial sex offenders like my former client, doing this would be a really bad idea.



by the way who should decide what a person's gender is if not the individual themselves?  and how?  see its a bit more tricky then it seems on the surface.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 2, 2015)

The footnote for TERF Ditum.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh yeah, James Bloodworth wrote a pro-fracking article for the WSJ:



> Christmas came early for the world’s liberal democracies this year, with news in mid-December that repressive regimes from Russia to Venezuela and from Iran to Belarus are tumbling down an economic spiral. Who or what should we thank for this geopolitical yuletide? The neocons? Pro-democracy protesters?  George W. Bush  and Tony Blair ?
> 
> No. Thank instead American shale producers. The shale-gas and hydraulic-fracking revolution is lighting a figurative bonfire under the world’s petrocracies. Dictatorships that for years blackmailed the West in the knowledge that we would come crawling back for the black stuff are now catching a glimpse of a bleak future.



Good intellectual slight of hand to put Venezuela in the same bracket as dictatorship and 'petrocracies'.



> *Some of the most vociferous opponents of fracking are liberals, yet the shale revolution has the potential to undermine some of the world’s most illiberal regimes*, in the process freeing the U.S. from its bondage to Saudi Arabia, as demanded by progressives for decades. Thuggish governments in Caracas, Moscow and Tehran don’t much like shale either, which ought to endear it still further to democrats.
> 
> This is not to dismiss the environmental concerns regarding shale extraction in urban areas, nor to call for the abandonment of a long-term strategy in the West for the development of green renewables. Yet it is to recognize that American shale producers are engaged in a price war with some of the world’s vilest regimes. In that respect, the left should get on board the fracking revolution.



LOL what a bizarre justification.

Full text:



Spoiler



Christmas came early for the world’s liberal democracies this year, with news in mid-December that repressive regimes from Russia to Venezuela and from Iran to Belarus are tumbling down an economic spiral. Who or what should we thank for this geopolitical yuletide? The neocons? Pro-democracy protesters?  George W. Bush  and Tony Blair ?

No. Thank instead American shale producers. The shale-gas and hydraulic-fracking revolution is lighting a figurative bonfire under the world’s petrocracies. Dictatorships that for years blackmailed the West in the knowledge that we would come crawling back for the black stuff are now catching a glimpse of a bleak future.

As the American people and companies shift more of their consumption to cheaply produced domestic energy, the geopolitical leverage of oil-rich autocrats diminishes. A barrel of crude on Monday sold for less than $60, down nearly 50% since June when it went for $115. Take that, ayatollah.

This is a price drop made in the shale-rich heartlands of the U.S. Between 2007 and 2012, shale production in America jumped by more than 50% a year. In that time the shale share of total U.S. gas production rose to 39% from 5%. Last year the U.S. overtook Russia as the world’s leading energy producer; next year America is projected to overtake Saudi Arabia as the world’s biggest producer of crude oil.

One consequence is a massive fall in the price of oil just a few years after the words “peak oil” were being bandied around as gospel by environmentalists. Peak oil now looks like one of the most outlandish theories of our era. Rather than contract, the global supply of energy continues to diversify and expand, in no small part because of the boom in American shale.

This ought to put a smile not only on the faces of free-market economists, but liberals and progressives, too. As America becomes a net exporter of energy, shale could help topple some of the world’s worst regimes.

The relationship between oil wealth and autocracy is well-established, with a number of studies showing that democracy is less likely in oil-rich nations. Oil wealth helps keep dictators in their palaces by allowing vast military expenditure to repress dissent and providing a ready pool of money with which to co-opt their populations through generous welfare stipends.

Sitting atop large and valuable energy reserves also gives autocrats the luxury of keeping a tight lid on economic entrepreneurship. Winning the geographical lottery ensures that the oil money comes in regardless of how little revenue the rest of the economy generates.

Consider Russia and Venezuela. At least some voters in both countries have tolerated the emaciation of civil society while the Putinist and Chavista regimes have learned to use oil money to fend off unrest and buy off loyal cronies. Meanwhile, the armed forces in both nations have been placated with high-tech toys and rising salaries.

Despite legitimate environmental concerns about fracking and horizontal drilling, the long-term impact of shale on the global oil price means that regimes that have long relied on a single export for their survival are facing a potentially ruinous economic future.

Russia’s economic woes are well-documented, largely due to the fact that oil revenues make up 45% of the government budget. But elites in Iran and Venezuela also have the jitters and have been pleading with OPEC, the world’s largest oil cartel, to cut production to prevent the price of oil from falling any lower. Venezuela needs a price of $151 a barrel next year to balance its budget while Iran requires around $131.

So far Sunni Saudi Arabia has been willing to tolerate low prices in order to hurt its Shiite rival in Tehran. Yet Riyadh is no less worried about the long-term consequences of shale than are the Iranians—it simply has a bigger buffer of foreign-exchange reserves with which to soak up the short-term consequences. If oil stays at $60 per barrel in 2015, Riyadh will run a deficit equal to 14% of gross domestic product.

Some of the most vociferous opponents of fracking are liberals, yet the shale revolution has the potential to undermine some of the world’s most illiberal regimes, in the process freeing the U.S. from its bondage to Saudi Arabia, as demanded by progressives for decades. Thuggish governments in Caracas, Moscow and Tehran don’t much like shale either, which ought to endear it still further to democrats.

This is not to dismiss the environmental concerns regarding shale extraction in urban areas, nor to call for the abandonment of a long-term strategy in the West for the development of green renewables. Yet it is to recognize that American shale producers are engaged in a price war with some of the world’s vilest regimes. In that respect, the left should get on board the fracking revolution.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 2, 2015)

James 'worth some blood' is a truly nasty specimen. His articles are always a vapid and dishonest defence of neoliberalism and imperialism cloaked in a couple of leftishsounding buzzwords, like a poundshop (although imo his stock was vastly overrated anyway) Christopher Hitchens.



> Despite legitimate environmental concerns about fracking and horizontal drilling



If they are legitimate then why do they only merit half a sentence? Fuck the US working-class who will actually have to put up with the degradation of their environment, there are profits to be made and coups against democratically elected governments to unleash.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 2, 2015)

Look at some of this nonsense

http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2014/03/05/littler-england/



> The disinclination of the public to want Britain to intervene militarily in Syria has more to do with the ‘Ukipification’ of British politics than it does with any outbreak of flower power or anti-war sentiment.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 2, 2015)

Indeed, not even a hyperlink to explain the legitimate concerns around fracking. Bloodworth doesn't care. Doesn't fit his ideological prism.


----------



## treelover (Jan 2, 2015)

Not defending him but he is one of the few journalists who writes consistently about benefit issues, or at least he did, may have 'moved on' now.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2015)

How is that not a defence then?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

smokedout said:


> fair enough, it strikes me as very unusual, having looked into the terfs argument before i found barely any evidence of people living permanently and presenting as the opposite gender (which presumably he/she was doing if they were bringing court cases etc) to gain access to female only spaces to be sexually abusive.  I very much doubt agencies have lists of dozens of men doing this.



he's not living permanently and presenting as the opposite gender, that's the point.  his sole claim to transgender status appears to be based around trying to gain access to vulnerable women and girls.  

you may not believe me on this, or on the anecdotal stuff about agencies, what i can prove i won't because i'm not interested in risking my job at the moment to win an argument with someone on the internet.  what i can't prove i can't anyway, so it doesn't matter.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

smokedout said:


> by the way who should decide what a person's gender is if not the individual themselves?  and how?  see its a bit more tricky then it seems on the surface.



i don't know.  you'll note that i'm not claiming to know, nor proposing anything, merely stating that a problem exists with a particular model of practise.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 2, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> The footnote for TERF Ditum.




What a thoroughly unpleasant woman. Weird thing is, I expect even most Tories etc wouldn't say that to a trans person - can she just not see what a horrible bastard she comes across as?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2015)

I do find that many of the trans activist websites seem a bit misogynistic tbh, which ties into the idea that a few people are claiming to be transgender to prey on vulnerable women (cis or trans, the site I linked to goes into a few cases of that nature). Some of the sites I have been looking to around this stuff written by trans people express concern that some people are just fetishists who have no interest in transitioning full time. However, this is in no way a justification for terfism or any other form of transphobia. To be honest I would imagine that most trans people just want to live their lives and be left alone.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2015)

This blog by a trans bloke has a few posts going into the damage that identity politics is doing to trans people's ability to access services on the nhs, and could be used as an excuse to cut services, since it is thought that being able to identity as your real gender without medical intervention means that few/no trans people ever need surgery. I am possibly oversimplifying his argument but It's a very good blog imo

Http://toplioncub.tumblr.com


----------



## smokedout (Jan 2, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i don't know.  you'll note that i'm not claiming to know, nor proposing anything, merely stating that a problem exists with a particular model of practise.



fair enough, the answer currently is the government and how is based on provably living as the opposite gender for two years, having a diagnosis of transsexualism and having had some treatment - which means hormones, the same kind of drugs that are used for chemical castration.  This seems a drastic and elaborate step for a non-trans man to take to gain access to womens only spaces and I can't believe it is so commonplace that agencies have lists of dozens of men doing this.

There may well be examples of men masquerading as trans to get into women only meetings, workshops etc although I've never heard of one. 
I suspect though that anyone without a gender recognition certificate, who isnt being treated and has been diagnosed, is unlikely to get anywhere near a womens only hostel, and neither is your bloke who isnt even presenting as a woman and sounds like a crank.


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## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2015)

that is horrible SpineyNorman  There's something seriously wrong with them. 

Wtf right does some new statesman writer have to decide who is female anyway :S


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

smokedout said:


> I suspect though that anyone without a gender recognition certificate, who isnt being treated and has been diagnosed, is unlikely to get anywhere near a womens only hostel, and neither is your bloke who isnt even presenting as a woman and sounds like a crank.



fortunately you are quite right - he isn't getting anywhere near a women only hostel or prison, and he is a crank.  a crank who managed to groom a child this year, and may well have raped them too.

but the reason that i brought him up is because i am critical of a model that relies on trust, when the people they are trying to keep out are untrustworthy.  it's completely wrong - and i know they mean well, and they're trying to help break down stigma and be non-critical of transpeople, but as a gate-keeping method it's a massive failure.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 2, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> fortunately you are quite right - he isn't getting anywhere near a women only hostel or prison, and he is a crank.  a crank who managed to groom a child this year, and may well have raped them too.
> 
> but the reason that i brought him up is because i am critical of a model that relies on trust, when the people they are trying to keep out are untrustworthy.  it's completely wrong - and i know they mean well, and they're trying to help break down stigma and be non-critical of transpeople, but as a gate-keeping method it's a massive failure.



but I dont think the model does rely on trust completely, but also a bit of basic common sense and as shown in the in the case of your bloke it works.  the standard terf position is fairly ludicrous and I'm not sure anecdotes like yours, which actually show how these people are weeded out by current practice, should be used to bolster it at all.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

i think you've missed my point entirely tbh.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 2, 2015)

your point was that a model which allows people to self-identify gender is flawed because there are lots of predatory men who would present as women to access women only spaces to abuse women.  your evidence was an anecdote about a man, who didnt present as a woman, and wasnt given access to women only spaces.  i dont think that evidence is very strong, so I disagree with your criticism of the model, with the caveat that a bit of common sense needs to be applied and if a man turns up with a beard and a hard on claiming to be a woman and wanting to get into a female sexual health workshop he should probably be told to fuck off.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

so whilst you're calling me a liar and deliberately misrepresenting my point you're actually agreeing with me that there does need to be some critical analysis in some situations.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm not prepared to accept your claim that "there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular" based something someone told you once and an example which is clearly not a case of a man presenting as a woman to access women's spaces, if you think that's me calling you a liar sorry.  

and yes, I agree there should be some common sense, I dont think anyone would suggest a former sex offender who lives and presents as a man should be able to live in a women's hostel and its a complete straw man to suggest that anyone would.  so I wonder why you are bolstering the terf position with evidence that doesnt stand up whilst also undermining the opposing position by misrepresenting how it is called for and operates in practices, thats all.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 2, 2015)

heres some real evidence on this subject by the way: http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533


----------



## Sea Star (Jan 2, 2015)

It's going to be a long time before I feel confident to enter women only spaces! I've been a man too long! Unfortunately I am now not allowed in male only spaces either! It does become a problem! I've overcome the toilet issue and not had any trouble except from men but I still feel very wary especially as I see very negative stuff about trans women all over the mainstream media!

As for being a cunt obsessive, the opposite is true in my case whereby I've always had fairly uneasy relationship with female genitals but not felt able to enter into relationships with men either for whatever complicated reasons that probably only therapy will reveal!
What confused me I think is how much I loved being in female company and still do! At the moment I could only contemplate living with women as I more or less have done continuously since I was 21.

Now that I've started on female hormones and let myself explore being my true gender I find that I am very attracted to men and sudden to able to contemplate a relationship with a man!

many trans people I know, men and women, who were confused about their sexuality or identified as gay/ bisexual prior to transitioning, now identify as straight!!


----------



## Sea Star (Jan 2, 2015)

smokedout said:


> I'm not prepared to accept your claim that "there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular" based something someone told you once and an example which is clearly not a case of a man presenting as a woman to access women's spaces, if you think that's me calling you a liar sorry.
> 
> and yes, I agree there should be some common sense, I dont think anyone would suggest a former sex offender who lives and presents as a man should be able to live in a women's hostel and its a complete straw man to suggest that anyone would.  so I wonder why you are bolstering the terf position with evidence that doesnt stand up whilst also undermining the opposing position by misrepresenting how it is called for and operates in practices, thats all.


That's what I was thinking


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

any experience which doesn't match your position must therefore be motivated by me being a secret terf and or a right-winger.  despite all the evidence to the contrary.

you don't believe me, fine, whatever.  you haven't and won't see this evidence that you think doesn't stand up.  whatever.

you're a credit to journalism.  even the article posted by frogwoman on here actually cited examples of men doing just what i said this chap was doing.  but you say that doesn't happen.

fucking hell, whatever.  

i don;t know what the fucking point is.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm not trying to have a go, you made a highly contentious claim, its hardly surprising you've been asked to back it up.  The reason I'll never see your evidence is because you don't have any, except a list someone told you about and a case that it turns out doesnt support your claim.  Now maybe this list doesnt exist, and its one of those rumours that emerges amongst professionals based on preconceptions, isolated subjective experiences, or bigotry.  Or perhaps it does, and its actually a list of transgender or transsexual sex offenders (im sure they have lists of non-trangender sex offenders as well) - and that crucially that transgenderism is not recognised, or not accepted by some professionals because they either dont believe in it, or their offending is seen as 'male' thus invalidating their stated gender identity.  Or something else.  But I find the idea of some level of institutionalised transphobia within the mental health system and treatment of sex offenders more persuasive than the idea that there are 'plenty' of men living and presenting as women and claiming to be transsexual with the sole intention of gaining access to womens hostels and sexual abuse treatment services to abuse women.  Perhaps you can offer some examples of prosecutions for this kind of behaviour to prove me wrong?

the article froggy posted was about something quite different btw


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 2, 2015)

i feel that perhaps we are having completely different conversations here.


----------



## Sea Star (Jan 2, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i feel that perhaps we are having completely different conversations here.


Maybe you need to make yourself clearer then


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 3, 2015)

AuntiStella said:


> Maybe you need to make yourself clearer then



apparently so.

how about i apologise for sounding like a terf propaganda machine and retract my comment until such time as i can work out how to frame it better?


----------



## smokedout (Jan 3, 2015)

these internet message boards will never catch on if that's how people respond to criticism


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 3, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> how about i apologise for sounding like a terf propaganda machine



The old real terf or artificial terf debate. Never ends well.


----------



## Celyn (Jan 4, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> The old real terf or artificial terf debate. Never ends well.



Could possibly place bets on how debate would turn out.  At a Terf Accountant.

<Celyn quickly fetches coat>


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> apparently so.
> 
> how about i apologise for sounding like a terf propaganda machine and retract my comment until such time as i can work out how to frame it better?



So now you're expecting reflexivity from AuntiStella ? That's rather patriarchally-oppressive of you! Why not just say "practice what you preach, greenie" ?


----------



## Celyn (Jan 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> ... Why not just say "practice what you preach, greenie" ?



That would involve typing in USA-lingo.


----------



## cathal marcs (Jan 7, 2015)

Priorities!

"Despite years of “potty parity” laws, women are still forced to stand in lines at malls, schools, stadiums, concerts, fair grounds, theme parks, and other crowded public spaces. This is frustrating, uncomfortable, and, in some circumstances, humiliating. It’s also a form of discrimination"

http://time.com/3653871/womens-bathroom-lines-sexist-potty-parity/


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## el-ahrairah (Jan 7, 2015)

the rehabilitation of hari continues http://www.alternet.org/media/johan...868939.ib5rWs&rd=1&src=newsletter1029854&t=19


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jan 7, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> the rehabilitation of hari continues http://www.alternet.org/media/johan...868939.ib5rWs&rd=1&src=newsletter1029854&t=19


"Darling of the left"


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 7, 2015)

it's enough to make you claw your own eyes out.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jan 7, 2015)

cathal marcs said:


> Priorities!
> 
> "Despite years of “potty parity” laws, women are still forced to stand in lines at malls, schools, stadiums, concerts, fair grounds, theme parks, and other crowded public spaces. This is frustrating, uncomfortable, and, in some circumstances, humiliating. It’s also a form of discrimination"
> 
> http://time.com/3653871/womens-bathroom-lines-sexist-potty-parity/



Lots of that article is pretty dubious and one of the main solutions implied (the abolition of urinals) is downright stupid, but as "everyday sexism" issues go, having to queue often to take a piss because there aren't enough women's toilets isn't trivial. Or, as the author notes, men are less likely to think it's trivial when it's inflicted on us.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> it's enough to make you claw your own eyes out.



I'd rather claw Hari's out, if it's all the same with you.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Lots of that article is pretty dubious and one of the main solutions implied (the abolition of urinals) is downright stupid, but as "everyday sexism" issues go, having to queue often to take a piss because there aren't enough women's toilets isn't trivial. Or, as the author notes, men are less likely to think it's trivial when it's inflicted on us.



Yep


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2015)

As an aside I really hate the word queer, it was an insult to me growing up and brings back bad memories. And I don't like the politics it implies. LGBT are already perfectly good words.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2015)

Sorry just a rant. But that word was an insult to me growing up and it annoys me that it's always being used by commentariat fuckers.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 17, 2015)

#katiehopkinsofthe'left'


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 17, 2015)

Check this out:


----------



## rekil (Jan 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> #katiehopkinsofthe'left'


Maybe I should check my basic recording setup privilege but she needs a decent mic and pop filter. Is Harvard strapped for resources? Should I donate my Rode NT1A to them?



Some right wing headbanger had a go at her buke here. He seems to be under the impression that she's a bolshevik because Alexandra Kollontai gets the mention and so as if to labour the point, there's Trotsky quotes and pics of the lads; Stalin etc. He has put up an exceptionally cringeworthy excerpt which has at least one bit copied from a 2011 NS article.



> In 2011, the summer of rage and riots, I kiss a girl and she tastes of cigarettes and gin and I like it. She says she wants to be a mistress forever. We met because we were sleeping with the same boy, and he isn’t entirely comfortable with how close we’ve become. I buy her a cupcake from a posh sex shop. The cupcake has icing on it shaped like a cunt with a little clear sugar glaze tricking obscenely off the frosting folds. She laughs and eats it right there in front of me because she is hungry. . . .
> Then he’s sick of us both, and so we go out like we have before, eyeliner and cigarettes and bus passes on our way to corrupt young minds. . . . We are a tag team, an unstoppable perversion: we drag strange little hipsters into strange beds, turn them on to roll-ups and feminism. . . .





> I have spent more time than I care to contemplate in my nimble years in the company of polyamorists, queer non-monogamists and the sort of people who prefer labels like “love anarchists” . . .I don’t mean to advocate casual sex, housing collectives and late nights drinking bad vodka with bisexual activists as alternatives that necessarily work for everyone, though they’ve always done so for me.


Do not be too shocked comrades. Having a laugh in your 20s is a little bit communism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 18, 2015)

copliker said:


> Do not be too shocked comrades. Having a laugh in your 20s is a little bit communism.



Not sure who that is about, but I could have a Stav in the dark


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 18, 2015)

copliker said:


> Do not be too shocked comrades. Having a laugh in your 20s is a little bit communism.



Edgy.


----------



## The Pale King (Jan 18, 2015)

_'Turn them on to roll ups' ?_

It's the self-regard, it gets me every time...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 18, 2015)

I've been turning fat angry balding old men onto coke zero.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 18, 2015)

It's funny that when she gets criticised by actual, nasty misogynists she dances around like it's a game and it's funny. On the other hand, if someone reasonable has an actual political point that she does not like then she tries to shut it down by claiming harassment, anxiety etc


----------



## rekil (Jan 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's funny that when she gets criticised by actual, nasty misogynists she dances around like it's a game and it's funny. On the other hand, if someone reasonable has an actual political point that she does not like then she tries to shut it down by claiming harassment, anxiety etc





> I find your in-depth, line-by line analysis of my work rather flattering, in a creepy sort of way.


What is a book review meant to be other than a 'line by line analysis'. If it was a positive review I'd wager that she wouldn't label someone who bothered to wade through her shit vacuous writing as 'creepy'.

Anyone who's been having a tough time of it for the last few years, just stfu, check your privileges, all of them, and spare a thought for the squeezed middle.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 18, 2015)

copliker said:


> spare a thought for the squeezed middle.



She increasingly makes me think of George Ferguson, Bristol's 'radical', 'independent' (millionaire, recently ex-LibDem) mayor.



> 2015 is upon us and it promises to be a momentous year. The big positive is European Green Capital which will take off with the opening event on 23rd, followed by a media 'spectacle’ on 24th. There is a remarkable programme of events and projects throughout the year, leading up to our presence at the Paris UN Climate Change summit at the end of the year. The downside is that we are entering local and national elections which mean that we are faced with some negativity from those intent on taking pot shots – some of which are clearly aimed at smearing the 2015 project as a way of getting at me! This is a continuing challenge as it can be damaging and is very difficult to answer everything however outrageous it may be.
> 
> With this in mind I am determined that we step up communications via all media. I have, rather reluctantly, let Zoe take over as Director of Communications at Bristol 2015, which she has now been doing for nearly 3 months and is doing a great job, as you would expect. However it does mean that I have been without any ‘political’ assistance and I have missed her support. The good news is that I have now appointed Steve Hynd to take on her role as Head of Mayor’s Office for the next year, starting on 9th Februaryafter he returns from Uganda where he is running a pan-African charity. He previously worked for Bath MP Don Foster who recommended both of us to each other!
> 
> ...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 18, 2015)

"I have spent more time than I care to contemplate in my nimble years in the company of polyamorists, queer non-monogamists and the sort of people who prefer labels like “love anarchists” . . .I don’t mean to advocate casual sex, housing collectives and late nights drinking bad vodka with bisexual activists as alternatives that necessarily work for everyone, though they’ve always done so for me."

"There were revelations about feminist Laurie Penny’s singing habits. “She was a keen member of the Gilbert and Sullivan Society,” a university friend said. “At freshers fair they would sing continuously. Our stall was next to theirs and we had to operate in extremely short shifts. I have hated her with a murderous rage ever since”."

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/claws-are-out-among-the-girls-9311050.html


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's funny that when she gets criticised by actual, nasty misogynists she dances around like it's a game and it's funny. On the other hand, if someone reasonable has an actual political point that she does not like then she tries to shut it down by claiming harassment, anxiety etc



Probably because reasoned political points are much harder to refute with some twee little tweet or similar soundbite. The more solid the criticism, the more she'll leg it in some other direction.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 18, 2015)

also, i thought, what does "nimble years" mean.  i took it to mean student days, but then i wasn't too sure if i was being fair or not, so i googled it, and lo... it's from goethe's Faust.  and for some reason that mildly irritated me.


----------



## rekil (Jan 18, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> also, i thought, what does "nimble years" mean.  i took it to mean student days, but then i wasn't too sure if i was being fair or not, so i googled it, and lo... it's from goethe's Faust.  and for some reason that mildly irritated me.


It could have been pinched from the April 1972 issue of Motorboating (& Sailing) mag.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 18, 2015)

_Dear girl, believe me, what they call clever Is often more dumb conceit. _


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2015)

Someone pointed this out years ago (1965):

*Jeff Spross*‏@jeffspross
This Irving Howe quote is not about the Twitter left but it might as well be.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 19, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Someone pointed this out years ago (1965):
> 
> *Jeff Spross*‏@jeffspross
> This Irving Howe quote is not about the Twitter left but it might as well be.


'FOR GLORY OR BURDEN!' would make for a rather awkward battlefield cry, but it does have a certain ring to it


----------



## rekil (Jan 19, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> 'FOR GLORY OR BURDEN!' would make for a rather awkward battlefield cry, but it does have a certain ring to it


"FOR GLORY AND/OR BURDEN!"


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 19, 2015)

BY GRABTHAR'S HAMMER WE SHALL AVENGE THEE!


----------



## captainmission (Jan 19, 2015)

"I got where I am, in part, due to my privilege"




"But shut up talking about it"


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 19, 2015)

It's hard being a middle class brat.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 19, 2015)

LMAO, the lack of self-awareness is again outstanding. I'm sure like many others, her position afforded her various opportunities to build the brand. Faux posturing.  

Just amazed how someone from that privileged background can stand on her pulpit and tell us *we* overestimate class in this country. Pass me the fucking sick bucket.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 19, 2015)

#jamesbluntoftheleft


----------



## J Ed (Jan 19, 2015)

She means work for free... she has repeatedly talked about unpaid internships, including at Spiked.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 19, 2015)

Didn't she do a stint at the Morning Star too? I'm sure OJ probably greased the wheel in the same way. 

Musa Okwonga made some interesting points on this matter: http://www.okwonga.com/on-james-blunt-chris-bryant-and-inequality-in-the-arts/

Whilst I do empathise that Penny no doubt suffered bullying in spite of her academic position is sad and unpleasant but it underscores a wider problem about access to the media without the financial clout to intern for free or privileged to know the right names.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 19, 2015)

'_backbreaking_ low-paid entry level journalism jobs'? Nice try at making yourself look like some horny-handed daughter of toil, Laurie.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 19, 2015)

weepiper said:


> '_backbreaking_ low-paid entry level journalism jobs'? Nice try at making yourself look like some horny-handed daughter of toil, Laurie.



If she thinks that journalism is back breaking I'd love to see how she'd react to having to do a job where she had to be on her feet for eight hours. Ugh.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 19, 2015)

C'mon, that's a little harsh, it must be pretty backbreaking to not go outside to report on Occupy protesters being assaulted in the States to protect that personal brand of ethical journalism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 19, 2015)

Time for an oldie-but-a-classic


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> If she thinks that journalism is back breaking I'd love to see how she'd react to having to do a job where she had to be on her feet for eight hours. Ugh.



I'd hardly call it back-breaking, certainly not in comparison to many occupations.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 19, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Didn't she do a stint at the Morning Star too? I'm sure OJ probably greased the wheel in the same way.
> 
> Musa Okwonga made some interesting points on this matter: http://www.okwonga.com/on-james-blunt-chris-bryant-and-inequality-in-the-arts/



who also went to private school, talking about what Blunt who went to private school said about what Bryant who went to private school said about how people who didn't go to private can't access the arts, or as it turns out, even the fucking conversation


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 19, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Someone pointed this out years ago (1965):
> 
> *Jeff Spross*‏@jeffspross
> This Irving Howe quote is not about the Twitter left but it might as well be.


That's a great quote, almost as good as the Engels Fabian one.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 19, 2015)

captainmission said:


>




Fuck me, that tweet just gets weirder the more I chew on it. "In my experience" lol.

What a marvellous universe she must inhabit.


----------



## Sue (Jan 19, 2015)

weepiper said:


> '_backbreaking_ low-paid entry level journalism jobs'? Nice try at making yourself look like some horny-handed daughter of toil, Laurie.


 
It's a little bit practically working down the pit.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 19, 2015)

eatmorecheese said:


> What a marvellous universe she must inhabit.



THE PROMISED LAND


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 19, 2015)

A reminder that the creepy Malcolm guy exists. *Eye bleach*


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 19, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> THE PROMISED LAND
> 
> View attachment 66612



The smug pollution is oppressing me


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 19, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> THE PROMISED LAND
> 
> View attachment 66612



Oh God.


----------



## rekil (Jan 19, 2015)

captainmission said:


> "I got where I am, in part, due to my privilege"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not so long ago, Laurie was asserting that apart from her mates including the likes of Weev, Americans are all braindead sheeple wankers and that's why the US is fucked. Now I don't know what to think.


----------



## tim (Jan 19, 2015)

It's Satanist celebrity yoga that's been distracting and disturbing me this evening


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> She means work for free... she has repeatedly talked about unpaid internships, including at Spiked.




Regarding internships and emplyment, does anyone remember her paying below minimum wage for said services?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 20, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> THE PROMISED LAND
> 
> View attachment 66612


 
A rug really ties a room  together.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 20, 2015)

To give her her due, I thought this was amusing:


----------



## rekil (Jan 20, 2015)

One for muscovyduck - A remarkable bit of applied multitudinous positionism from LP here. Just a few days after smearing the Paris massacre victims as wotten wacists (no #solidarity for the dead black policewoman either - who's the _real_ racist eh?) she's been 'moved to tears' by a Neil Gaiman's proper makesyouthink tribute - motivated partly I suspect because Gaiman is rich and famous and she requires the approval of such people, and partly because she imagines the words apply to her.



Elsewhere in the milieu, Richard Seymour has dug his heels in. Lots more words where "I can't be arsed to research the mag but I saw a couple of covers on facebook and that Olivier Cyran piece and they had it coming" would do.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 20, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Regarding internships and emplyment, does anyone remember her paying below minimum wage for said services?



Not linking to Guido Fawkes but it worked out at about £5.88 an hour (their figures) for 85 hours of work. She also wanted a female, which is of course discrimination and originally qualified it with this remark:

"I'm probably looking for a female researcher, and if you have a background in feminism or activism, all the better. However, any males who wish to persuade me that they can do the job just as well, I'm open to all suggestions."


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 21, 2015)

Can't link to tweets on my phone and I've only got one hand to type with atm but anyone else see Laurie's tweet about how Americans underrate how important class is but English people overrate it?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 21, 2015)

muscovyduck said:


> Can't link to tweets on my phone and I've only got one hand to type with atm but anyone else see Laurie's tweet about how Americans underrate how important class is but English people overrate it?


http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/urban-vs-the-commentariat.313676/page-351#post-13669306


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 26, 2015)

no wonder they can't take criticism, with these sorts against them http://8ch.net/baphomet/res/42116.html

yeah sorry its full of proper gore and horrors. it's a bunch of gamergate arseholes talking about doing a number on sam ambreen.  i'm not a particular fan of her opinions but it's a timely reminder of what these pricks are like.   they are real real scum and if they disagree with you they will do their best to fuck up your life.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> no wonder they can't take criticism, with these sorts against them http://8ch.net/baphomet/res/42116.html



Ugh is that 4chan shit? Maybe don't link to that shite here.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2015)

Ugh it seems like that particular board is linked to gamergate stuff, probably better not to attract the cunts over here


----------



## J Ed (Jan 26, 2015)

A lot of very, very graphic images on that post. I'm dead inside from the internet already so I'm not that bothered but el-ahrairah might want to warn...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2015)

I didn't read that far thank fuck.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2015)

I don't agree with much ambreen says but she comes across as fairly sincere and genuine, unlike penny, lezard, hari et al

That website also appears to host a number of paedophilia-related forums too judging by its Wikipedia page


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Jan 26, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> no wonder they can't take criticism, with these sorts against them http://8ch.net/baphomet/res/42116.html
> 
> yeah sorry its full of proper gore and horrors. it's a bunch of gamergate arseholes talking about doing a number on sam ambreen.  i'm not a particular fan of her opinions but it's a timely reminder of what these pricks are like.   they are real real scum and if they disagree with you they will do their best to fuck up your life.


Holy FUCKING shit. Those men are vile and utterly terrifying.

What kind of defence is there against that stuff? Serious question. 

That poor poor lass.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Jan 26, 2015)

Also I couldn't give a toss what her opinions are. I couldn't care if she's a right wing libertarian or whatever is thought of as worst round here. No woman deserves to be threatened, hunted, scared, her family threatened by mysogynistic fucking pricks like that who hide behind 'Anon' and wish on her rape and chocking. Fuck them.

What's the defence?


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Jan 26, 2015)

Rrrrr god that's made me so fucking angry.

Fucking 'Anon'. They deserve to be named, publicly. Their mothers, sisters, Nans, friends, wives, co-workers made aware of exactly what cowardly disgusting creeps they are. Big fucking men eh, hiding quietly in the dark, ganging up together to frighten a woman who (whatever her fucking opinions) doesn't hide.

>>42532 uhuh uh yeah here's a picture of her at 16, here's her and her cousin, here's her email address, a postcode

Cowards. To feel so threatened by feminism that they hunt one woman down to silence her. Us. Cowards.


----------



## killer b (Jan 26, 2015)

There isn't one I don't think. Not one that makes any kind of sense anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 26, 2015)

Yeah know what you mean Nancy_Winks that sort of shit crosses so many lines it's untrue. I wonder if she's reported any of the threats.

Her opinions are irrelevant, she doesn't deserve any of that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 26, 2015)

Anon are this though. An amorphous mass of faceless etc. 

There are times when refusing a leadership is valid- see how some chinese have had to do the no visible leader thing to avoid the hammer of the state.

But these fucking sewer rats revel in thier own filth, because y'know, guy fawkes mask or something.

We had ambreen on here and there was vehement exchanges. Nobody would ever dream of giving her the shit she's had from the 'anon' 

political exchanges, heated ones. Yes. That's the cut and thrust of it. This stuff, toxic shit...fuck no. Anon. fucking assange.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2015)

They've harassed 11 year old kids. They're fucking scum.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 26, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> also, i thought, what does "nimble years" mean.



Bowie's first draft


----------



## toggle (Jan 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Anon are this though. An amorphous mass of faceless etc.
> 
> There are times when refusing a leadership is valid- see how some chinese have had to do the no visible leader thing to avoid the hammer of the state.
> 
> ...



fairly graphic demo of all the reasons women have to think carefully before being a non anonymous figure with a vagina and opinions. 

that shit is anonymous for the fuckers throwing it about, it isn'[t for the victim, their freinds, family, anyone who defends them paints a target on their back. and it isn't 'just the internet' when they are openly threatening people's families and publishing addresses and actively encouraging people to go visit. sure most of these fuckers are miles away, but it only takes one. the level of hate indicates a serious fucking threat  to the safety of women campaigners and their families. and this shit is clearly being shared. the online shit is being encouraged through these groups, even if you couoldn't call that actively 'organised', it is being done as a group targetting individuals. and the vast majority of the worst kinds of vile anti women stuff is coming from people like this. who have fuck all else to do other than whip up a group hate against women don't know they are supposed to stay on their knees. 

this is why it always ends up as the same voices speaking for feminism, cause omg, if 'using the word partiarchy in a non ironical way' is going to get you death threats, then how bad will this shit get if you actually seem to be achieving something. like that article on 'drinking the kool-aid'. i've got a level of respect for anyone dealing with that on a daily basis who is still taking about issues, not just the shit they face. and while the shit thrown by some of the commntariat is fucking irritating, i do hope there's no one who still dosen't believe that those women get daily levels of threat and abuse. but i know i couldn't face that shit. I can't put my family in a position of having to look over their shoulders when going out.


----------



## toggle (Jan 27, 2015)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Rrrrr god that's made me so fucking angry.
> 
> Fucking 'Anon'. They deserve to be named, publicly. Their mothers, sisters, Nans, friends, wives, co-workers made aware of exactly what cowardly disgusting creeps they are. Big fucking men eh, hiding quietly in the dark, ganging up together to frighten a woman who (whatever her fucking opinions) doesn't hide.
> 
> ...



they are actively making threats of injury and death to named individuals. fuck shaming them, I want to see people who do that jailed.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Jan 27, 2015)

toggle said:


> they are actively making threats of injury and death to named individuals. fuck shaming them, I want to see people who do that jailed.


Guess I don't ever put much stock in the police. And what I want to see happen is for these cunts to have a taste of their own medicine.

Their power comes from their anonymity, and their ability to expose the woman (and her family & friends) they target.

They need exposing themselves. Just my gut feeling mates. Where are our hackers going after these pieces of shit?


----------



## toggle (Jan 27, 2015)

Nancy_Winks said:


> Guess I don't ever put much stock in the police. And what I want to see happen is for these cunts to have a taste of their own medicine.
> 
> Their power comes from their anonymity, and their ability to expose the woman (and her family & friends) they target.
> 
> They need exposing themselves. Just my gut feeling mates. Where are our hackers going after these pieces of shit?



hmmmm.

maybee. be nice, but not as an either/or. having that level of threat coming in atatched to personal information that is more than enough to physically locate the victim and their families is a genuine life changing level of danger. and it should be taken seriously, not written off as women being oversensitive _again_ because disagreement is a natural result of trying to comment in public, or that it's 'just the internet' and not a real threat by authorities and sideline-charlies. 

or claimed as a freedom of speach issue. these fuckers don't care about free speach unless it's them talking. they want the fucking freedom to scream abuse at women, to threaten women, to graphically describe their rape fantisies to women. in order to silence women. you loose the fucking moral high ground on freedom of speech and the right to say anything you want when you're gobbing off in an attempt to silence someone else you fuckers.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 27, 2015)

A lot of 4-ch*n type shit is just kids (does anyone over the age of 15 use the word 'feminazi'?) trying to out-gross each other and get attention, that's what motivates a lot of this stuff, trying to be the best bad guy in the tribe.  And like classic school bullies they'll always go for the targets that will give them the satisfaction of reacting to it, which given the hyperbole of some of the commentariat might make them obvious targets. Not a justification in anyway for all the vile sinister shit, but it's more likely to be self-aggrandisement and vile shit to upstage someone else's vile shit rather than genuine rage at the victim. That said, it only takes one dickhead to take it further than words, and words themselves will be enough to make things very fucking unpleasant for the target.

I'm hoping one day there will be enough processing power for machines to go back and fathom out from patterns in posts and language who these people actually are, maybe in a decade's time when they're out of college and doing the normal family life thing, so that they might be held to account and embarrassed by their cruelty. Actually, I kind of don't because of other things that tech would be aimed at, but still, it ought to worry them.


----------



## toggle (Jan 27, 2015)

Dogsauce said:


> does anyone over the age of 15 use the word 'feminazi'?


yes.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 27, 2015)

It's not just kids.


----------



## toggle (Jan 27, 2015)

typical minimalising the problem though. it's harmless, don't worry your pretty little heads over them. ok goes on to admit it isn't, but still. it's not just kids. and when it is including that much personal information, it is a real threat.

and any woman with a public presence can end up a target. it's not just commentariat types. eg mary beard. being thratened shoudoln't be written off as an expected result of exagerating facts to get a story. cause it isn't about what anyone thinks of their honesty. it's about attacking women. especially those who talk about feminism


----------



## The Boy (Jan 27, 2015)

What weepiper and toggle said.  

Had a proper gamergater in my class at college last year.  In his mid-late 20s.  Dribbling fucking wretch.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 27, 2015)

The Boy said:


> Had a proper gamergater in my class at college last year.  In his mid-late 20s.  Dribbling fucking wretch.



I know a _woman_ from my uni, has some pretty serious issues, who has actually has managed to swing herself a (I suspect paid) position writing for a right-wing libertarian website. Her schtick is basically to legitimise the misogyny of the website's disgustingly bigoted readership by saying 'hey I am willing to say sexist things too, you totally aren't sexist!' - gamergate seems to be the platform she has used to launch her 'writing' to a wider readership.

Gamergate seems like it acts like a gateway to nastier and nastier views.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2015)

Milo Yiannopoulos and Delingpole were pro-GamerGater's, which tells you all you need to know.

Milo also allegedly had a thing for Nazi Germany some years ago.












http://pme2013.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-art-of-self-loathing.html

That stuff aimed at Sam Ambreen makes me sick to my stomach. She does not deserve that.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2015)

Of course it's not just kids, and being on the internet doesn't make it any less serious in the same way that people on say vanguard news network or scumfront's threats should be taken seriously as on many occasions they have carried them out, or the way salafist forums are used to recruit jihadis, etc


----------



## toggle (Jan 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I know a _woman_ from my uni, has some pretty serious issues, who has actually has managed to swing herself a (I suspect paid) position writing for a right-wing libertarian website. Her schtick is basically to legitimise the misogyny of the website's disgustingly bigoted readership by saying 'hey I am willing to say sexist things too, you totally aren't sexist!' - gamergate seems to be the platform she has used to launch her 'writing' to a wider readership.
> 
> Gamergate seems like it acts like a gateway to nastier and nastier views.





gamergate is the public face of those shitbags, the fuckwits who thought releasing chat logs full of rape threats proved they weren't in it to attack women. who have sucked in others with their claims that anyone who ins't talking about ethics in games journalism isn't a proper gamergater. note that it's the women being targetted, not the big games manufacturers who actually do have the money and influence to pay for good reviews with cash and other benefits. the rape threats aren't arseholes who only claim to be gamergaters. they are the true face of the group that is now draggin in the free-speach at any cost types and 'respectable' misogynists, and right wing publicity seeking cunts and don't forget our old freinds, the MRAs.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 28, 2015)

The Boy said:


> What weepiper and toggle said.
> 
> Had a proper gamergater in my class at college last year.  In his mid-late 20s.  Dribbling fucking wretch.



I do hope you fed him his own teeth.


----------



## co-op (Jan 28, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> being on the internet doesn't make it any less serious



It isn't on the internet as soon as they dox you; _I know where you live_ is the basic threat of threats. Nasty and highly intimidating and doesn't need anything more than one in a hundred such threats to be carried out to frighten people off.


----------



## Nancy_Winks (Jan 28, 2015)

Of course it's not 'just kids'. I'd expect the majority to be adult men in 20,30s,40s. And men in late teens and twenties ARE adult men, not 'kids'.

It's also just goes to show the hatred of women speaking up for women's rights too. These men don't exist in a bubble, they're just saying the vile shit a lot of men think.

That it exists at all and isn't shut down immediately by the police (in the same way threats to businesses by hackers is) is a fucking scandal and says a lot about the extent that deep seated misogyny is tolerated and supported by society.

It's like the internet is the uncensored version of the battle for women's rights, and these cunts act like they want to shut women up. They say shut the fuck up or we'll frighten you and threaten you to shut you up. Cunts.


----------



## The Boy (Jan 28, 2015)

SpineyNorman said:


> I do hope you fed him his own teeth.



Alas, no.  My other half was always warning me off picking a fight with him seeing as we were class mates, and she probably had the right of it tbf.

It *is* remarkable how easily cowed he was in person as compared to when he was hiding behind a computer screen though.  Even on facebook under his real name he would go off on one at the slightest hint of a challenge, but in class he was very quick to learn to keep schtum when I was nearby.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 28, 2015)

The Boy said:


> Alas, no.  My other half was always warning me off picking a fight with him seeing as we were class mates, and she probably had the right of it tbf.
> 
> It *is* remarkable how easily cowed he was in person as compared to when he was hiding behind a computer screen though.  Even on facebook under his real name he would go off on one at the slightest hint of a challenge, but in class he was very quick to learn to keep schtum when I was nearby.



Usually the case mate - and joking apart, satisfying as it might be unless you seriously maimed him the only person who'd suffer long term consequences would be you. And if you did seriously maim him you'd be in even more shit. It's like catch 22 or summat!


----------



## weepiper (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm not sure she and I have the same definition of 'radical'.


----------



## rekil (Jan 31, 2015)

First part of that for context.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 31, 2015)

Exactly. In the same breath as.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 31, 2015)

lols


----------



## rekil (Jan 31, 2015)

Zinger


----------



## andysays (Jan 31, 2015)

weepiper said:


> ...




"Ooh me, Miss, pick me!!!!1!!"


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 31, 2015)

andysays said:


> "Ooh me, Miss, pick me!!!!1!!"



I sense yet another bout of 'ethical' brand-building coming on.

The 'rebel sell' will be heard loud and clear. Again.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> I sense yet another bout of 'ethical' brand-building coming on.
> 
> The 'rebel sell' will be heard loud and clear. Again.


Probably coincides with a module at Harvard, or an assignment of some kind.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 31, 2015)

copliker said:


> First part of that for context.
> 
> View attachment 67090



Bit Anglocentric really. Why is she asking for privately educated Oxbridge media liberals to advertise themselves on twitter when both Podemos and Syriza have elected representatives who are women?


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 31, 2015)

LOL. OJ got Bloodworth riled.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 31, 2015)

Sounds like James Bloodworth is tired of being called scum lol


----------



## J Ed (Jan 31, 2015)

Here you go Cathy

Lola Sánchez Caldentey






A graduate of political science and social movement activist, like many young Spanish people she emigrated to find the work that she couldn't find in Spain. When she was elected as an MEP for Podemos she was working as a waitress in Murcia. Since being elected she has been generally awesome, and has been particularly vehement in her opposition to the TTIP.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 31, 2015)

Teresa Rodriguez






Former Izquierda Unida militant, veteran of anti-NATO protests and prominent feminist, she left the IU due to its power sharing agreement with the PSOE in Andalucia. She worked as a secondary school teacher. Elected as a Podemos MEP in 2014.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 31, 2015)

NM we'll just spin a narrative and get another Oxbridge grad on lulz


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 31, 2015)

J Ed said:


> NM we'll just spin a narrative and get another Oxbridge grad on lulz



Another one from the private school, Oxbridge, Prada-Meinhof bubble who'll sound just radical enough, but not so radical their presence would really mean anything. Another empty vessel spouting more exciting flavours of the same old piss.

Terrific.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 1, 2015)

whose james bloodworth then?  never heard of him before.  when jonesy calls him a Bolshevik, is he using the term Bolshevik accurately?


----------



## rekil (Feb 1, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> whose james bloodworth then?  never heard of him before.  when jonesy calls him a Bolshevik, is he using the term Bolshevik accurately?


Used to be AWL. 

 

He was caught on here plagiarising a couple of things.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 1, 2015)

cheers


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2015)

copliker said:


> He was caught on here plagiarising a couple of things.


Eg http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/bbc-owen-jones.295422/page-68#post-12409817


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 1, 2015)

^^
Wow. That's some blatant lifting from others from ol' Bloodworth.

Haha, look who OJ nominated for 'radical' women:








The same woman who wrote that infamous piece for Foreign Policy called about all Arab men hating women. Not that misogynist behaviour is exclusive to Arab males it was clearly a misdirected article. Especially when writing for FP indicates the type of audience you are aiming for. It raises serious issues but the front cover is beyond problematic. 

Her new book is called Headscarves and Hymens: Why the Middle East Needs a Sexual Revolution. Not essientialising identity at all.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 1, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> from others from ol' Bloodworth.
> 
> Haha, look who OJ nominated for 'radical' women:
> 
> ...




Feminist imperialism, that's a new one.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 1, 2015)

They literally cannot think of anyone outside of their Oxbridge idiot bubble


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2015)

http://m.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/31089462

No platform for 'non-sex positive feminists' ! 

Christs sake


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2015)

Fuck sake, thats actually made me really angry.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/...thwaite-free-speech-show-feminist-campaigners

“They told me that the union supports the sex industry, which is weird. Surely you support the workers, not the industry. Then I was asked if I had picket lines outside gigs before. I said no. Then I was told it was due to a likelihood of a breach of Goldsmiths’ ‘safe space policy’. I’m a zero threat to anybody’s safe space policy. If someone disagrees with me, I want to be able to talk about it.”

Twats.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 3, 2015)

Goldsmith's. What a suprise.


----------



## rekil (Feb 3, 2015)

> Kate Smurthwaite's Leftie Cockwomble is described as being about "free speech".


She should be no platformed on the basis of the show's rubbish title. Nice bit of publicity anyway. Good work from her agent to get something out of this nothing story.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2015)

http://cruellablog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/goldsmiths-and-me-full-story-proof.html?m=1


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2015)

They _support the sex industry?_ Are pimps and strip club owners an oppressed minority now?

That was a painful read. Dishonesty, self-righteousness, ignorance and what people might reckon trumping actually looking at things in a vaguely reasoned way. Totally unique for student politics


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Totally unique for student politics



Ah I see, you're 19 years old.  That explains much.  I'm sorry I was nasty to you now, I won't do it again.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2015)

the no platforming over her opinions is bad enough.  but to deny it is so utterly mendacious.  the fact that she can prove that they're liars makes me happy.  won't change anything, mind.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> the no platforming over her opinions is bad enough.  but to deny it is so utterly mendacious.  the fact that she can prove that they're liars makes me happy.  won't change anything, mind.



Kate Smurthwaite's interlocutor was not exactly being very honest with her either, I suspect.


----------



## killer b (Feb 4, 2015)

Isn't this just children playing at politics? Does it have any impact beyond their bubble?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2015)

if you're not defending pimps, you're just a tory in disguise.  punishment gang rapes are _liberating_.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2015)

killer b said:


> Isn't this just children playing at politics? Does it have any impact beyond their bubble?



It does when they grow up.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 4, 2015)

Read that blog than I remembered why I disliked Smurthwaite:



> Stand-up comedian Kate Smurthwaite gave a lively speech in support of the proposition, arguing that any form of theism was potentially incompatible with gender equality as religion requires us to unquestioningly accept the word of a deity. Smurthwaite also criticised the burqa, insisting that Saudi Arabian women did not choose to ‘cover themselves head to toe’, but were forced by social and legal pressures.
> 
> *Perhaps the most entertaining point of the evening occurred when Smurthwaite asked a burqa-wearing member of the audience to remove their religious clothing and emerge from the ‘shadows’. After removing the burqa it was revealed that the audience member, who was clearly part of Smurthwaite’s act, was male.*


*
http://oxfordstudent.com/2014/05/29...t-islam-is-incompatible-with-gender-equality/*


----------



## killer b (Feb 4, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> It does when they grow up.


Does it really? They'll have grown up, and won't be so stupid anymore.

I had some really fucking daft politics when I was 19. I learned how not to be (as) daft by talking and doing stuff having my daft politics challenged. Fortunately I didn't have a national stage on which to do this - neither should these kids.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2015)

killer b said:


> Does it really? They'll have grown up, and won't be so stupid anymore.



If only it worked like that.

Half of what comes out of Harriet Harman's mouth sounds like warmed-up student political nonsense to me.  Jacqui Smith too.  Many others too.  Might as well be listening J Ed half the time.



killer b said:


> I had some really fucking daft politics when I was 19. I learned how not to be (as) daft by talking and doing stuff having my daft politics challenged. Fortunately I didn't have a national stage on which to do this - neither should these kids.



Raise the voting age to 30 to start with.  Make the minimum age for an MP 40.  Do like the Romans.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 4, 2015)

killer b said:


> Does it really? They'll have grown up, and won't be so stupid anymore.



Let's hope so.


----------



## killer b (Feb 4, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Raise the voting age to 30 to start with.  Make the minimum age for an MP 40.  Do like the Romans.


have you seen the turnout figures for the under 30s? in effect, it already is...


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 4, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Let's hope so.




It's the Churchill inflections that really get me.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 4, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> It's the Churchill inflections that really get me.



He wouldn't look out of place in a horror movie. Some kind of Stephen King effort.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 4, 2015)

identity politics for kids.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2015)

I dont even


----------



## NoXion (Feb 5, 2015)

That's a pisstake, right? I hope it's not real.


----------



## krink (Feb 5, 2015)

NoXion said:


> That's a pisstake, right? I hope it's not real.



yeah it's someone trolling. 

source - hey i'm hip with the kids on tumblr, daddio


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2015)

glad to hear it.  i was sent it by someone who believed it to be real.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 5, 2015)

Damn. I really want Gloomgendered to be an actual thing. I've no idea what it would be though. But it sounds cool (to a depressive like me!)


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 5, 2015)

Rational Wiki on identity politics:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Identity_politics

Not entirely sure about all the author's points mind.


----------



## The Boy (Feb 5, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Damn. I really want Gloomgendered to be an actual thing. I've no idea what it would be though. But it sounds cool (to a depressive like me!)



According to google, it is


----------



## BigTom (Feb 5, 2015)

> *gloomgender*
> definition: nonbinary/indifferent. mostly darkness, the new moon phase, apathy and a mix of a bit of masculinity, bit of femininity and lack of gender. can include sadness, grief and depression.



http://mogai-archive.tumblr.com/post/92008152529/gloomgender

wtf does that even mean!?

Couple of other places seem to be saying that it's people with depression identifying that mental health issue as a gender which - to me - is tottaly wtf as whilst depresssion is an issue that is genderised (iirc far more likely to have clinical depression as a man than a woman), it's not a gender or a gender issue - at least as I understand either of those terms.
You might link it to sexuality, as depression (and meds) have a tendency to kill sex drive. But gender? I don't get it.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

It doesn't mean anything. It's a stupid term a teenage Goth thought of that basically only exists outside the person who invented it's head for people to go WTF over.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

If you go looking for it, stupid kids say stupid things every minute of every day, same as they always have. But now its on tumblr.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

Come on though: this stuff is like those sexual perversions people make up for the lols – giving it any kind of attention at all is more than it deserves.


----------



## krink (Feb 5, 2015)

it's not even the most batshit stuff i've seen on tumblr


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

Quite - and it really doesn’t matter – it’s just kids being kids. It has no bearing whatsoever on real life, or on the topic of this thread – which is about how privately educated middle class writers dominate the 'left' media, I think?


----------



## Belushi (Feb 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> If you go looking for it, stupid kids say stupid things every minute of every day, same as they always have. But now its on tumblr.



Innit. I'm forever grateful that the internet didn't go mainstream until I was well in to my twenties.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> Quite - and it really doesn’t matter – it’s just kids being kids. It has no bearing whatsoever on real life, or on the topic of this thread – which is about how privately educated middle class writers dominate the 'left' media, I think?



So I take it you're _absolutely certain_ that each and every one of these "kids" (and how do you know they're all kids? It seems more likely to me that they're adolescents, you know, that age at which one first starts having political opinions) will completely and fully grow out of this kind of Tumblr echo chamber without it having any kind of effect whatsoever on their later actions and thinking?

Am I to also understand that you think there is absolutely no link or avenue of potential influence between the commentariat and these identity politicians with training wheels?

I on the other hand am disinclined to believe that such things arise in a total vacuum. Where do kids get these ideas from, hmm?


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

Which other adolescents should we waste our time with, combing their social media for idiot things they've said? 

And yes, of course people's adolescent musings inform them as adults - but I think it's much more likely that their grown up politics will be influenced by this crap if there's attention paid to it now than if they're ignored and left to work it out among themselves.

Seriously, google _gloomgender_ - pretty much every single result is just someone going 'WTF?' - it's nothing anyone should give a shit about. Just some dramatic kid in eyeliner making a twat of themselves.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2015)

sounds like a character class in AD&D


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 5, 2015)

I think _gloomgender_ is exactly the kind of stupid shit that teenagers should be into.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

Talking about this kind of crap in threads like this risks giving it legitimacy and validation IMO, as well as being a waste of time. I never hear about anything like this except when someone posts something about it here, with a  - just like 99% of the other references to it you can find on the web.

But _then_ what happens is it gets held up as typical of silly left-wing views, and used as a way of driving people away from considering real, important issues around gender and identity (and left wing stuff in general). It's nothing. Let 'em get on with it.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> Which other adolescents should we waste our time with, combing their social media for idiot things they've said?
> 
> And yes, of course people's adolescent musings inform them as adults - but I think it's much more likely that their grown up politics will be influenced by this crap if there's attention paid to it now than if they're ignored and left to work it out among themselves.
> 
> Seriously, google _gloomgender_ - pretty much every single result is just someone going 'WTF?' - it's nothing anyone should give a shit about. Just some dramatic kid in eyeliner making a twat of themselves.



I wasn't suggesting that this thread be used to pick over the Tumblr postings of each and every angsty teen who thinks they're being politically progressive, just as I suspect that you think this thread would be a waste if we picked over the comments of every single web "journalist" who fancies themselves as the next Penny Dreadful. But to dismiss it all as "kids being kids" strikes me as going too far the other way. Why are they choosing _this_ way of expressing themselves, and can it be purely a coincidence that they're choosing those forms at a time when this thread on the commentariat has reached 355 pages?

Do you really think that U75 is that influential that if we dare to discuss such things in even general terms, it'll spread across the web (let alone the world) with the alacrity of the pox in a bordello? Judging from polls and the general behaviour of the membership I didn't get the impression this was a site popular with teenagers.

As for "gloomgender", it strikes me as indentity politics taken to its logical extreme (for a certain value of "logical" in any case). Yes, the reaction from the vast majority is going to be WTF (as was my reaction), but that's merely the most obviously ridiculous cherry-red tip of the whole festering boil.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 5, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think _gloomgender_ is exactly the kind of stupid shit that teenagers should be into.



i think i saw them at the Walthamstow standard in 1993


----------



## krink (Feb 5, 2015)

Supporting Slowdive, great gig.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2015)

NoXion said:


> I wasn't suggesting that this thread be used to pick over the Tumblr postings of each and every angsty teen who thinks they're being politically progressive, just as I suspect that you think this thread would be a waste if we picked over the comments of every single web "journalist" who fancies themselves as the next Penny Dreadful. But to dismiss it all as "kids being kids" strikes me as going too far the other way. Why are they choosing _this_ way of expressing themselves, and can it be purely a coincidence that they're choosing those forms at a time when this thread on the commentariat has reached 355 pages?


kids have always chosen things like this as ways to express themselves. It's just all there for people to pick over and laugh at now.


> Do you really think that U75 is that influential that if we dare to discuss such things in even general terms, it'll spread across the web (let alone the world) with the alacrity of the pox in a bordello? Judging from polls and the general behaviour of the membership I didn't get the impression this was a site popular with teenagers.


not at all - we have no influence whatsoever over what teenagers think. But we do perhaps reflect (and maybe influence? we can hope...) some trends in the wider left. I think it would be of benefit to us at least (and more charitable to the kids being laughed at) not to overstate the importance of teen goth idiocy and shrill student bubble politics. Plus, we can spend our time arguing about things that matter instead of kids stuff.


> As for "gloomgender", it strikes me as indentity politics taken to its logical extreme (for a certain value of "logical" in any case). Yes, the reaction from the vast majority is going to be WTF (as was my reaction), but that's merely the most obviously ridiculous cherry-red tip of the whole festering boil.


nope, it's just bollocks.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2015)

Back on topic (sort of) - there's some interesting points in this Mark Ames peice - when he's not whining about his old paper that is - i'm more interested in how this plays out in non-social media situations and the dynamics behind those encounters (i'm thinking back to that vid of those US students in a class protesting a while back) and how people not coming from that background would react if faced with this when say organising themselves around say, a housing selloff:

The geometry of censorship and satire

_That’s because the Internet and social media have pretty much flattened whatever remained out here of the old media hierarchies with a new sort of horizontal dystopia. In theory, as we all know and have heard a bazillion times, the Internet and social media were supposed to bring something far better than the old vertical, top-down, elite distribution of media and journalism. Under the bad old ways, the media “elites” imposed conformity and consensus from the top-down, foisting their “elite” interests on the rest of us without any real debate. It was this vertical, “elitist” control over media and information that supposedly was the real cause of all of our political problems, and our political disasters (Iraq, financial crisis)—at least according to the popular cant of today. The solution to “elites” controlling our narratives is therefore supposed to be horizontal, decentralized structural power, i.e., the Internet, and especially social media—which, again, levels and flattens old media hierarchies and makes it possible for other non-elite viewpoints and narratives to break in.

All this Internet utopian cant about flattened, decentralized power networks—derived originally from corporate managerial theory, but that’s another depressing story—jibes nicely with one of the most enduring middle-class romantic dreams that we’ve inherited from the hippies and never quite shaken off: the dream of leaderless, horizontally-structured utopias in which power itself dissolves along with the old oppressive vertical hierarchies. It’s an enduring middle-class dream up to this day. If anything it’s grown stronger since the hippies turned their dream of horizontally-structured utopias into a series of disastrous real-world communes, before turning to corporate consulting about decentralizing corporate structures, a la Stewart Brand. This same romantic “horizontalism” framed the Occupy protests, both their spectacular start and their embarrassing failures; and more to the point, it’s the major premise in much of the cant you hear from cheerleaders for the Brave New Media.

But there’s another, darker aspect to horizontal power beyond the utopian cant—a new hyper-conformist culture accelerated by social media horizontalism. You see it most clearly on Twitter, which was just launching around the time that Sergei Dorenko riffed on the Western media’s horizontal censorship._

_...

Twitter’s horizontalism does more than flatten out old elitist relationships (such as between reader and Twitter-engaged journalist)—it also flattens out time and space, cultures and contexts, and brains. It has a way of empowering credulous idiots and outrage addicts, who brandish their ignorance like a virtue. And reptilian ignorance is a virtue in social media’s horizontal model. Which is why, at some point, you figure, it’s not worth arguing with them. The whole platform can be as toxic as a Komodo Dragon’s gums.

...

Fact is, Swift today would be hounded off Twitter for “promoting child cannibalism as a solution to Irish poverty”; demagogic satire-shamers would trash Swift for “punching down, not up”—because as every social media Stalinist will tell you, “satire should punch up, not down.” And it’s all effected without the crude, violent methods used by the Kremlin censors—we do it to ourselves, thanks to our decentralized new utopia.
_


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> _Which is why, at some point, you figure, it’s not worth arguing with them. _



I'm not sure why it took Ames so long to figure this out.  It's pretty obvious that you can't have a rational debate on Twitter, because rational debates require nuance and subtlety.  Quite apart from the allegedly ignorant audience, there simply isn't _room _for a serious discussion on Twitter.  If you try to have one there, you'll end up degrading your own argument with relentless simplification.  Best left alone.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 5, 2015)

Gloomgender lol, leave em to it


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 6, 2015)

The mosque allegedly received death threats after Cathy Newman made some claims about being 'ushered' out of a mosque. CCTV tells a different story. She's apologised though, of course, no 'harm' done. In spite of her creating headlines as a result. But I'm sure this won't get picked as much.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/05/cathy-newman-mosque_n_6620026.html


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2015)

I was in the following mosque.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 6, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Gloomgender lol, leave em to it



It appears that several posters on here are Gloomgender, naming no names like:


----------



## killer b (Feb 6, 2015)

nah, we're done with that.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 6, 2015)

"_All this Internet utopian cant about flattened, decentralized power networks—derived originally from corporate managerial theory, but that’s another depressing story—jibes nicely with one of the most enduring middle-class romantic dreams that we’ve inherited from the hippies and never quite shaken off: the dream of leaderless, horizontally-structured utopias in which power itself dissolves along with the old oppressive vertical hierarchies._

Didn't realise corporate managerial theory was that old_._


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> nah, we're done with that.



Speak for yerself.  Anything can be a gender now.  I'm Drunkgender I am.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 6, 2015)

Flavour said:


> Didn't realise corporate managerial theory was that old_._



It's Oldgender.


----------



## rekil (Feb 6, 2015)

This is the best she could do on that other thing.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2015)

copliker said:


> This is the best she could do on that other thing.
> 
> View attachment 67374



What a dickhead


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> What a dickhead



Twatgender.

Actually I've found a great new gender: Neutrois.  That's what I am: Neutroisgender.  Just got to work on the dysphoria a bit, anyone got any tips?


----------



## rekil (Feb 10, 2015)

Laurie's contributions to the #AdviceForYoungJournalists mess on the twitter machine really are something. So something, she posted a storify of them.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 10, 2015)

copliker said:


> Laurie's contributions to the #AdviceForYoungJournalists mess on the twitter machine really are something. So something, she posted a storify of them.


I note that "join a union" isn't on there.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2015)

copliker said:


> Laurie's contributions to the #AdviceForYoungJournalists mess on the twitter machine really are something. So something, she posted a storify of them.



If you're a cub/fresh journalism grad then "pitch, pitch and pitch again" is likely to get you shit, not work, bearing in mind that the person on the other end of the phone will have already heard every pitch under the sun by about 10.00am.  I'd recommend trying to sell a finished story, rather than pitching to get a story commissioned.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

copliker said:


> Laurie's contributions to the #AdviceForYoungJournalists mess on the twitter machine really are something. So something, she posted a storify of them.



Actually they are very good advice.  Especially this: "Make sure you get paid."

The real reason ordinary people rarely make a career in mainstream journalism is that they can't afford to work for free.  Rich people can though.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you're a cub/fresh journalism grad then "pitch, pitch and pitch again" is likely to get you shit, not work, bearing in mind that the person on the other end of the phone will have already heard every pitch under the sun by about 10.00am.  I'd recommend trying to sell a finished story, rather than pitching to get a story commissioned.



That's very silly advice.  Then you'll just waste your time writing stories that no-one will publish.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> That's very silly advice.  Then you'll just waste your time writing stories that no-one will publish.



Pitching is fine if you've already made a name. It's not so good if you're one of a fresh stream of journalism grads, all of whom are also trying to pitch.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pitching is fine if you've already made a name. It's not so good if you're one of a fresh stream of journalism grads, all of whom are also trying to pitch.



Don't write anything unless you're sure you're going to get paid for it, otherwise you will starve.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pitching is fine if you've already made a name. It's not so good if you're one of a fresh stream of journalism grads, all of whom are also trying to pitch.



Worth writing the introduction you're thinking of and an outline I'd say.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 10, 2015)

two sheds said:


> Worth writing the introduction you're thinking of and an outline I'd say.


Mind you don't get splinters in your arse, now


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2015)

So she says not to work for free, and that working for free is undercutting people who don't then why did she do it? Do as I say not as I do


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2015)

lol


----------



## JimW (Feb 10, 2015)

Where's "quote what you needed them to say, not what they said"?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2015)

"Be born well"
"Choose parents who will pay for private school"
"Leverage privilege to get into Oxford"


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


> "Be born well"
> "Choose parents who will pay for private school"
> "Leverage privilege to get into Oxford"


trainspotting poster for the elite


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 10, 2015)

copliker said:


> Laurie's contributions to the #AdviceForYoungJournalists mess on the twitter machine really are something. So something, she posted a storify of them.



They're something, all right. Bollocks and bullshit, mostly. I especially like the one about not screwing over your sources, considering what she did to the one that was threatening suicide whose story she ran even after taking professional advice not to.

I've got most of my clients by pitching. You can expect to make far more pitches than you'll get replies, but it's still worth doing.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 10, 2015)

I love the idea that it takes "talent" to be a journalist.  If only...


----------



## Greebo (Feb 10, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> I love the idea that it takes "talent" to be a journalist.  If only...


Stamina, persistence, a bit of ruthlessness, and the ability to tell any qualms to take a running jump might be nearer the mark.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 11, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Stamina, persistence, a bit of ruthlessness, and the ability to tell any qualms to take a running jump might be nearer the mark.



Yes, for those employed full-time by a UK daily anyway.  That isn't all journalists though, there are some decent ones around.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 13, 2015)

Speaking of commentaritwats, here's the New York Times ripping Hari a new one over his latest book:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/books/review/chasing-the-scream-by-johann-hari.html?_r=1


----------



## captainmission (Feb 14, 2015)

Two experts talk about sci-fi



> *Penny: *It always interests me when you’re in a traditional literary circle and you say to someone _I haven’t read Ulysses_, people will look at you like _Oh my God, who are you, why are you here? _But if I’m at a con like Nine Worlds and I say _I haven’t read the Foundation Trilogy, _people will be like _Oh my God, it’s amazing, you’re gonna love it, you can get a copy upstairs!_





> *Penny: *More people now are reading Octavia Butler, Margaret Atwood. But still, within the SF community, it’s astonishing how many people haven’t read this stuff! People who claim to be really huge science fiction fans.



_Such expertise_


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 14, 2015)

without reading anything but those quotes actually my experience is similar.  as a massive generalisation!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2015)

I was into octavia butler before it was cool. and Joan Slonczewsk, Gene Ure, Cherry Wilder, Mary Doria Russel, gwyneth jones.


thats just how hip I am I'm afraid


----------



## emanymton (Feb 14, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> without reading anything but those quotes actually my experience is similar.  as a massive generalisation!


I find it quite amusing that in the second quote it sounds like she is engaging on just the sort of behaviour she criticised in the first.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2015)

atwood disavows her work as sci fi anyway. Too good for the genre ghetto obvs


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 14, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> atwood disavows her work as sci fi anyway. Too good for the genre ghetto obvs



Does every work involving a love affair belong in the romance genre?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Does every work involving a love affair belong in the romance genre?


no. TBH you can make the case for handmaids tale being not of the genre but orynx n crake, come on


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 14, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> no. TBH you can make the case for handmaids tale being not of the genre but orynx n crake, come on



I haven't read Oryx and Crake, but hasn't Atwood said that it is "speculative fiction", ie the dual purpose genre renaming that serves both to unite science fiction and fantasy under a single genre title and also as an attempt to claim various "literary fiction" works for the genre ghetto.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I haven't read Oryx and Crake, but hasn't Atwood said that it is "speculative fiction", ie the dual purpose genre renaming that serves both to unite science fiction and fantasy under a single genre title and also as an attempt to claim various "literary fiction" works for the genre ghetto.


yeah its all spec fiction these days, uniting all sorts from slipstream to alt history to space tales etc


----------



## Belushi (Feb 14, 2015)

Nothing new about SF writers being a bit ashamed of the genre


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Nothing new about SF writers being a bit ashamed of the genre


or fantasy- the plethora of pseudonym attests to it


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 14, 2015)

rubbish. It's nothing to do with shame and everything to do with differentiation in a massively crowded marketplace. It's quite acceptable and if anything should be encouraged.

ETA: and pseudonyms tend to be more about people pigeon holing writers in particular genres


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2015)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> rubbish. It's nothing to do with shame and everything to do with differentiation in a massively crowded marketplace. It's quite acceptable and if anything should be encouraged.


do you think the author of the Chronicles of Gor hid behind a fake name for purposes of differentiation


----------



## rekil (Feb 15, 2015)

Japanese author Ayako Sono calls for racial segregation.



> “Since learning about the situation in South Africa 20 or 30 years ago, I’ve come to think that whites, Asians, and blacks should live separately,” Sono wrote.



Tough one for the PD identity politics kommando. Is it racist and sexist to be not very supportive of a woman of colour's pro-apartheid views?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2015)

copliker said:


> Japanese author Ayako Sono calls for racial segregation.
> 
> 
> 
> Tough one for the PD identity politics kommando. Is it racist and sexist to be not very supportive of a woman of colour's pro-apartheid views?



Surely her expression of Galtonesque views disqualifies her from her status as a "person of colour" being taken into consideration?
Perhaps we should do the comrade the service of arranging a holiday for her at a Proletarian Democracy Leisure and Political Re-education Facility?


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely her expression of Galtonesque views disqualifies her from her status as a "person of colour" being taken into consideration?
> Perhaps we should do the comrade the service of arranging a holiday for her at a Proletarian Democracy Leisure and Political Re-education Facility?



In fact, comrades should investigate whether the person in question self-identfies as a POC. Given her pro-apartheid views, I suspect she might not take too kindly to having that label put upon her by others.

copliker - Check your stereotypical labelling priv...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> do you think the author of the Chronicles of Gor hid behind a fake name for purposes of differentiation



Could be, or it could be because of shame or whatever but it's hardly the same is it? Gor is not just a straight forward fantasy/scifi thing


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 15, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> do you think the author of the Chronicles of Gor hid behind a fake name for purposes of differentiation



No, he hid behind a fake name because he was writing creepy porn.

It's standard practice for writers who churn out different types of genre novels to adopt different pseudonyms for each type even if none of their output is "respectable" and they have no credibility to tarnish. It is, as Spanky Longhorn pointed out, a marketing thing.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely her expression of Galtonesque views disqualifies her from her status as a "person of colour" being taken into consideration?
> Perhaps we should do the comrade the service of arranging a holiday for her at a Proletarian Democracy Leisure and Political Re-education Facility?


Which reminds me, where are we having it this year?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Which reminds me, where are we having it this year?



The straw poll has narrowed it down to Bognor or Balatter. The committee will vote in due course, and of course make the correct decision, comrade.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The straw poll has narrowed it down to Bognor or Balatter. The committee will vote in due course, and of course make the correct decision, comrade.


PolPhail was taken off the table then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> PolPhail was taken off the table then?




Yep. Too luxurious. We want to exercise minds and bodies, not coddle them with roofs!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep. Too luxurious. We want to exercise minds and bodies, not coddle them with roofs!


http://irishworkhousecentre.ie


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The straw poll has narrowed it down to Bognor or Balatter. The committee will vote in due course, and of course make the correct decision, comrade.



So was Comrade Onket's ill-fated thread actually an attempt to arrange details of a recce on behalf of the Leisure and Political Re-education Committee?

And in banning him, Editor and the rest of the moderators have inadvertantly outted themselves as a counter-revolutionary cabal in our midst?

Shit's getting serious


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2015)

andysays said:


> So was Comrade Onket's ill-fated thread actually an attempt to arrange details of a recce on behalf of the Leisure and Political Re-education Committee?
> 
> And in banning him, Editor and the rest of the moderators have inadvertantly outted themselves as a counter-revolutionary cabal in our midst?
> 
> Shit's getting serious



Your analysis is correct, comrade. 
The counter-revolutionary cabal and their fellow-travellers have had their cards marked, though, and shall enjoy the hospitality of our Leisure Facility soon enough (hums "Holiday in Cambodia" by The Dead Kennedys to self)!


----------



## captainmission (Feb 15, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> without reading anything but those quotes actually my experience is similar.  as a massive generalisation!



It's a fine point about misogyny in sci-fi community. It also engages in behaviour she showed discomfort with a few paragraphs previous.

Also the question of being an expert- Penny's clearly a sci-fi fan. Her co-expert tells her twitter a week before the piece is published she's going to try and read some sci-fi books this month and asks for recommendations. But both come from elite universities and exist in the same bubble as the editor - so seemingly can be experts whatever they're commissioned to write about.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 16, 2015)

Jesus wept. Where to even begin with Bloodworth's terrorism analysis?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...th-and-tragedy-unwavering-faith-10049972.html


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 16, 2015)

> As the great historian of Stalinism Robert Conquest puts it



lol.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 16, 2015)

Considering some of the board have pointed out Bloodworth's past plagiarism this is quite suspect.

Bloodworth: I'm unsure who first said it, but a motto we might adopt is to "follow those that seek the truth and run from those who claim to have found it".

It's a famous quote that does not appear to often but it is often attributed to Vaclav Havel. Not that Bloodworth is interested in that.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 17, 2015)

Laurie reviews 50 Shades of Grey:

http://laurie-penny.com/fifty-shades-of-socialist-feminism/


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Laurie reviews 50 Shades of Grey <snip>


An amusing enough little number, but entirely predictable.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 17, 2015)

Greebo said:


> An amusing enough little number, but entirely predictable.



Were you amused by its presumption?


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Were you amused by its presumption?


By the presumption of her wanting to be paid for it, yes.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 17, 2015)

Greebo said:


> By the presumption of her wanting to be paid for it, yes.




Paid? For that?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 17, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Paid? For that?



If only she would use her powers for good and not for evil.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 17, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> lol.


Caused me a bit of a "what the actual fuck?" moment too!


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> If only she would use her powers for good and not for evil.


Or, with more or less the same outcome, stop using her so-called powers at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

I see the terf wars have started again ffs


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2015/02/no-platforming-1.html

Thoughts on this anyone? At the risk of being thought of as a commentariat type i agreed with a lot of it tbh. Although i do think that there should be no platform for fash obviously.


----------



## krink (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2015/02/no-platforming-1.html
> 
> Thoughts on this anyone? At the risk of being thought of as a commentariat type i agreed with a lot of it tbh. Although i do think that there should be no platform for fash obviously.




404 page not found?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2015/02/no-platforming-1.html
> 
> Thoughts on this anyone? At the risk of being thought of as a commentariat type i agreed with a lot of it tbh. Although i do think that there should be no platform for fash obviously.



I've not been following the events which lead up to that piece, but writing a letter to the Guardian demanding Germaine Greer shouldn't speak at Cambridge University is very different from a mass mobilisation preventing fascists from holding an election rally in a school.

I don't really give a shit where Germaine Greer speaks as I am yet to be convinced that she poses a similar threat to organised fascist gangs.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I've not been following the events which lead up to that piece, but writing a letter to the Guardian demanding Germaine Greer shouldn't speak at Cambridge University is very different from a mass mobilisation preventing fascists from holding an election rally in a school.
> 
> I don't really give a shit where Germaine Greer speaks as I am yet to be convinced that she poses a similar threat to organised fascist gangs.



Indeed.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

krink said:


> 404 page not found?



Works fine for me...


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I've not been following the events which lead up to that piece, but writing a letter to the Guardian demanding Germaine Greer shouldn't speak at Cambridge University is very different from a mass mobilisation preventing fascists from holding an election rally in a school.
> 
> I don't really give a shit where Germaine Greer speaks as I am yet to be convinced that she poses a similar threat to organised fascist gangs.



Well yea its kind of missing the point behind no platform. And I dont like the way that this stuff is being used to, for example, shut up critics of the sex industry as someone who's done a bit of sex trafficking prevention work myself.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Well yea its kind of missing the point behind no platform. And I dont like the way that this stuff is being used to, for example, shut up critics of the sex industry as someone who's done a bit of sex trafficking prevention work myself.



Yeah it's a bastardisation of the term in both tactics and in what it's being used to oppose. If you ramp up the outrage to 100% for Germaine Greer, what are you left with when something shows up which is actually dangerous?


----------



## krink (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Works fine for me...



yep, and me now. ta


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yeah it's a bastardisation of the term in both tactics and in what it's being used to oppose. If you ramp up the outrage to 100% for Germaine Greer, what are you left with when something shows up which is actually dangerous?



Also as everyone knows screeching abuse at people who aren't fash or even opposed to your views in many cases isn't the best way of convincing them of your position, as has been established in endless discussions on ukip etc here.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

Also not being funny but i can't take anyone that uses the term 'whorephobia' remotely seriously. Disliking the sex industry isn't remotely the same as disliking sex workers ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am yet to be convinced that she poses a similar threat to organised fascist gangs.


let's make her speak to them and see what happens.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

I'll be honest I fucking despise the sex industry and while i'm no terf i do have criticisms of, for example the thought of prescribing puberty blocking drugs to children unsure of their gender identity as is increasingly happening in the states. I think these are really complicated issues and I think they need to be discussed rationally. My views might be completely wrong but how are people going to be persuaded by such hostility, just as nobody is gonna be persuaded off voting ukip by someone screaming in their face or makjng fun of their appearance.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

The other day i was talking about the issue of babies with three parents to my dad and the fact that trans women may soon be able to have womb transplants to have kids, i don't have a problem with either of these really but he was deeply uncomfortable with it saying that we dont know the risks and that he didn't think any of these things should be messed around with. He's a bit of a small c conservative but he's never been sexist and he's not particularly strident about his views. How would he react to being told his opinions are worthless for being a privileged white cis man and that he is a transphobic misogynist that should kill himself?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Also not being funny but i can't take anyone that uses the term 'whorephobia' remotely seriously. Disliking the sex industry isn't remotely the same as disliking sex workers ffs.


 
this is something that i've come up against a lot.

you need a class analysis of sex work, and none of those people ever seem to have one.  they all think that choice is pure and free.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is something that i've come up against a lot.
> 
> you need a class analysis of sex work, and none of those people ever seem to have one.  they all think that choice is pure and free.



Exactly and their defence of sex work could be applied to any other work. 'Sex work is work!' Yea and whats so great about work anyway?


----------



## flypanam (Feb 18, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> they all think that choice is pure and free.



It is, if you can afford it.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> The other day i was talking about the issue of babies with three parents to my dad and the fact that trans women may soon be able to have womb transplants to have kids, i don't have a problem with either of these really but he was deeply uncomfortable with it saying that we dont know the risks and that he didn't think any of these things should be messed around with. He's a bit of a small c conservative but he's never been sexist and he's not particularly strident about his views. How would he react to being told his opinions are worthless for being a privileged white cis man and that he is a transphobic misogynist that should kill himself?



Depends on whether you are interested in convincing others of your point of view or the building of an 'ethical brand' and the accumulation of subcultural capital within existing peer networks. p.s die cis scum !!! i drink your cis tears!!!!!!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 18, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> How would he react to being told his opinions are worthless for being a privileged white cis man and that he is a transphobic misogynist that should kill himself?



I'm hoping this is like a pre-advert teaser question and you'll get back to us in a few minutes with the answer.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

And also in much of the world being 'cis' or even being a 'cis man' isnt even a privilege. Is being perceived to be female and having been born with a vagina a privilege if you are living under ISIS?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

I can just imagine it ...

'Im in Mosul, ISIS just took my wife away because she wasn't wearing the right clothes, im really scared'
'Check your privilege you misogynist, i lap up your cis male tears. Marriage is so outdated and everything, why dont you queer it up' 
'But my wife has been kidnapped by isis, can you help'
'How do you know she was kidnapped and she didn't go of her own choice EH EH?'
'Because she's my wife and we both hate ISIS, im worried they'll make her into a slave'
'Omg what monosexual and kink phobic assumptions, why am i even talking to you, why don't you kill yourself'
'Excuse me????'
'Stop tone policing me its really triggering!'
'Fuck off'
'See what i have to deal with?'


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2015)

'tone policing'?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

killer b said:


> 'tone policing'?



Yeah ...


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2015)

it's just rabbit-hole politics though isn't it? does anyone care what they think?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

Yeah but it's increasingly being used to try to shut people up in the real world. We probably shouldnt devote so much time on here tho to discussing it


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2015)

am I policing your tone?

*steps back*


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2015)

Im calling you out for that oppressive post


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 18, 2015)

It would be ironic for Germaine Greer to be forbidden from speaking at Cambridge University because she used to work there as a Special Lecturer on Shakespeare following publication of a book on the subject by Greer.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 18, 2015)

I hear her lectures featured. . . special stuff.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 19, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I hear her lectures featured. . . special stuff.


I'd love to hear her take on 'Taming of the Shrew'

even as a kid I spotted the _wrong _there


----------



## treelover (Feb 19, 2015)

I hate to say it and not defending them, but much of what these inter-sectionalists scream about, may be 'common sense' in thirty years time, I wasn't active in the mid 80's but I have heard of reports of blazing rows in left meetings when someone was called out for using 'chairman'


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 19, 2015)

treelover said:


> I hate to say it and not defending them, but much of what these inter-sectionalists scream about, may be 'common sense' in thirty years time, I wasn't active in the mid 80's but I have heard of reports of blazing rows in left meetings when someone was called out for using 'chairman'



Or the gulf between them and the public will continue to grow and they will carry on in their bubble completely oblivious to the rise of the far right, islamism, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is something that i've come up against a lot.
> 
> you need a class analysis of sex work, and none of those people ever seem to have one.  they all think that choice is pure and free.



I think that you're dignifying "their" argument through claiming that they think. It's fairly obvious that most of what they do, is presume. They presume to know, rather than actually finding out, and their presumptions *always* marry up to their pre-existing ideology and social preconceptions.


----------



## co-op (Feb 19, 2015)

treelover said:


> I hate to say it and not defending them, but much of what these inter-sectionalists scream about, may be 'common sense' in thirty years time, I wasn't active in the mid 80's but I have heard of reports of blazing rows in left meetings when someone was called out for using 'chairman'



Lots of isms issues were played out very fiercely in the 80s from my experience but I wouldn't say much of it has become 'commonsense'. Part of the reason the Trans vs RadFem schism is so bitter is because radical feminism is still so marginal that it can be taken out by an even tinier group of mtf trans activists who are probably fewer than 1 in a thousand of the population.

And there are still people who roll their eyes at "chair".


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 19, 2015)

co-op said:


> Lots of isms issues were played out very fiercely in the 80s from my experience but I wouldn't say much of it has become 'commonsense'. Part of the reason the Trans vs RadFem schism is so bitter is because radical feminism is still so marginal that it can be taken out by an even tinier group of mtf trans activists who are probably fewer than 1 in a thousand of the population.
> 
> And there are still people who roll their eyes at "chair".



Well im one of those and dont see why its an issue when in most cases the 'chair' is still a man before we even get to the fact of what he/she is being paid compared to other workers and those workers' all too frequent alienation and lack of participation in the type of structures that have 'chairs'


----------



## co-op (Feb 19, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Well im one of those and dont see why its an issue when in most cases the 'chair' is still a man before we even get to the fact of what he/she is being paid compared to other workers and those workers' all too frequent alienation and lack of participation in the type of structures that have 'chairs'





Yes, bad example with "chair" - for some reason it just makes me want to snigger because it makes me imagine the chair taking control of the meeting. TBH most of the times when I'm in the presence of a chair, or "chair" the only alienation going on is all of us from normal life as it'll be some titchy little protest group or TRA and we will all want to be somewhere else if we're being honest. I never have work meetings.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 19, 2015)

I saw 'the chairperson of the board of governors' on a company website today. 

It was a man.


----------



## rekil (Feb 20, 2015)

Some blogger, despite appearing to be a bit of a right wing fecker, had a pretty decent go at Laurie over her disgusting smearing of the Charlie Hebdo massacre victims as racist trolls.

https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/an-open-letter-to-laurie-penny/



> My objections to your message are as follows:
> 
> 1: You force equivalence/balance into the statement via the formulation. Namely: ‘The murderer is wrong but so are the victims.’  It seems to suggest you were incapable, for some reason, of being satisfied merely with condemning Islamist murderers.
> 2: You reduce Charlie Hebdo’s work to mere ‘trolling’. Under some definitions of trolling this might be accurate but you only ever employ it as a pejorative. I am assuming you have done so here.
> ...



One quibble is that he could've mentioned that she used a Guardian column to make out that a proper creepy nazi hacker weirdo was her idea of an actual hero. 

Responding to LP's passive aggressive refusal to account for her filtered through a Richard Seymour sock shittyness ("I don't owe you my attention" etc), the blogger claims "No doubt if a woman had written to you you'd respond." Well that's not strictly true is it?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 20, 2015)




----------



## J Ed (Feb 20, 2015)

Remember how Laurie Penny wrote an article denying that gender segregation was happening in UK universities' Islamic Societies and slandered Muslim women who protested against it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/22/this-isnt-feminism-its-islamophobia

Well, she rowed it back, sort of.



> I have spent weary weeks being asked to condemn this "policy of gender segregation" by "Islamic extremists", despite the fact that no such policy exists. Of course, I condemn all sexism within the academy. I condemn segregated drinking societies and the under-representation of women at the top levels of academia. I condemn rape culture on campus, traditions like "seal clubbing" and "slut dropping" where male students are encouraged to sexually humiliate their female classmates. If I've enough breath left, I'll condemn the suggestion that guest lecturers be allowed a segregated audience for religious reasons.



Gender segregation: a bit naughty but still alright, if it's happening, and I am going to pretend it isn't despite all evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Jezebelle (Feb 21, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is something that i've come up against a lot.
> 
> you need a class analysis of sex work, and none of those people ever seem to have one.  they all think that choice is pure and free.


I don't think that's true of Germaine Greer. I've heard her describe sex work in terms of a world-wide economic necessity for lots of women, many of which need to feed their children one way or another. She also sees it under capitalism as not necessarily different from all the other exploitative, miserable jobs that people do. She says "We are all involved in selling things that shouldn't be sold at all, it's called capitalism". http://critical-discipleship.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/germaine-greer-on-sex-work.html?m=1


----------



## rekil (Feb 21, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Laurie reviews 50 Shades of Grey:
> 
> http://laurie-penny.com/fifty-shades-of-socialist-feminism/


She's been at the socialist blackface again, and lying about her job description. 


> I tried to imagine what would happen if someone like me, a feminist *investigative journalist*, were to actually meet someone like Christian Grey. I named my main character ‘Emma Gold’ after the anarchist feminist philosopher Emma Goldman, who is one of my personal heroes.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2015)

copliker said:


> I tried to imagine what would happen if someone like me, a feminist *investigative journalist*, were to actually meet someone like Christian Grey. I named my main character ‘Emma Gold’ after the anarchist feminist philosopher Emma Goldman, who is one of my personal heroes



Gets even better: 

“I’ve been to more interesting parties in Brixton.”


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2015)

the thatcher's dead party was fairly interesting i guess.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2015)

Jezebelle said:


> I don't think that's true of Germaine Greer. I've heard her describe sex work in terms of a world-wide economic necessity for lots of women, many of which need to feed their children one way or another. She also sees it under capitalism as not necessarily different from all the other exploitative, miserable jobs that people do. She says "We are all involved in selling things that shouldn't be sold at all, it's called capitalism". http://critical-discipleship.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/germaine-greer-on-sex-work.html?m=1



you're quite right - the 'they' in my statement were the people who attempt to no platform her.  greer understands the class analysis of sex-work and puts it into its correct context.  i also meant that for every middle class escort who has "chosen freely" to go into sex work and finds it releatively safe and profitable, there are half a dozen working class women who are chosing between sex work and starvation, or sex work and violence, who work in unsafe situations for little or no profit.  their choices are not free - nor are those women who are pimped out, etc etc.  enshrining into law the freedoms of the middle classes is to enshrine into law the abuse of the lower classes, IYSWIM.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

It's also worth mentioning that one of the biggest issues that trans women face is actually economic coercion into sex work and 'transsexual porn' due to prejudice and lack of other options.  Don't see the twittersectionalists going on about that tho. I saw a tweet today saying that using the term 'fgm' is actually transphobic


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 21, 2015)

copliker said:


> She's been at the socialist blackface again, and lying about her job description.



Certainly lying about the job description. What investigative hard news has she actually covered? It's hardly Watergate or arms-to-Iran even if there is any. Come to think of it, didn't she whine about her time at the Independent being spent not covering hard news?

Hardly Woodward and Bernstein, now is it?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

Not going out there to be arrested just for journalism


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Not going out there to be arrested just for journalism



I'm sure those many journalists in places where they risk arrest and worse on a daily basis must find that just *so* inspiring...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I saw a tweet today saying that using the term 'fgm' is actually transphobic



was the thinking behind that apparent?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2015)

Media and mainstream political narratives in this country are so devoid of discussions of class that I think that people, particularly people in their mid twenties and younger, have difficulties conceptualising issues through class. People see themselves first and foremost as consumers and second or not at all as workers, which is why (some) customer service staff can spend an entire day being abused in customer service then at the end of day leave work and do the exact same thing to a counterpart in another company. 

If class does not factor into your consciousness then how do you look at attempts to criticise sex work? Well, then it's just a restriction on people in the same way as preventing someone from becoming a hairdresser because they are black. Why would you try to restrict the choices of anyone in our market society if not because of some kind of bigotry? It's another neutral choice in a market society in which we are all just making choices. Just like choosing cereal in Tesco.

Also, has anyone else noticed that almost all of these people building their ethical brand as sex workers by defending prostitution are middle-class dominatrices and the like rather than actual prostitutes who have full sex with johns with all the extra risk that entails?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> was the thinking behind that apparent?



No. It's 'cissexist as all hell' apparently. Presumably something about not all women having that anatomy.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> No. It's 'cissexist as all hell' apparently. Presumably something about not all women having that anatomy.


That's the same kind of people who think any kind of discussion about periods or endometriosis or any of the other things that genuinely do only affect women born women is transphobic. They can fuck off. I have no tolerance for that sort of nonsense whatsoever.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2015)

were they objecting to the procedure because it only affects female children, or objecting to being against it because that campaign excludes trans people.  i guess that's the question to understand whether they're an idiot or an actual shit.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

There was a case in the US recently where a woman who claimed sex discrimination because of not being allowed to breastfeed had her case thrown out because 'men can also lactate' 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6653418


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> were they objecting to the procedure because it only affects female children, or objecting to being against it because that campaign excludes trans people.  i guess that's the question to understand whether they're an idiot or an actual shit.



Objecting to the terminology used to describe it.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2015)

fucking hell.  that's insane.  @ the breastfeeding judgement.  as for the terminology thing, i guess they're just an idiot.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

And saying that referring to it as fgm excludes trans people. Im not being funny but they can fuck off. As far as i know they werent saying it was wrong to be against it but its a spectacularly stupid thing to say.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> There was a case in the US recently where a woman who claimed sex discrimination because of not being allowed to breastfeed had her case thrown out because 'men can also lactate'
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6653418


jesus mahogany christ.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> There was a case in the US recently where a woman who claimed sex discrimination because of not being allowed to breastfeed had her case thrown out because 'men can also lactate'
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6653418



Reactionaries really have cottoned on to this nonsense in recent years which is why you have Blairite students successfully using it to outmanoeuvre left-wing students in the NUS, Lib Dem councillors accusing Syriza of racism (and this being taken seriously by groups like London Black Revolutionaries) and the appropriation of intersectionalist language by MRAs and Gamergaters. They can do this because this 'politics' is so utterly devoid of content and a theoretical basis but at the same time is treated seriously by a vocal minority, people said for years that the right would do it and they have.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

There was also one from the same site altho i can't find the link now, a woman wasn't allowed to go on maternity leave in the US because 'if men could get pregnant we also wouldn't give them maternity leave'


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

It's increasingly getting out of hand and being used as a tool to shut people up. J Ed weepiper


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/brenda...s-has-created-an-army-of-vicious-narcissists/

I don't much like brendan o'neill and some of the language he uses in this piece but some good points made in this.

Identity politics is spreading, filling the chasm where the politics of ideas used to be. Even the general election looks set to be a festival of identity, a less violent form of the communalistic politics we sniffily condemn in places like India. Politicos rarely speak of ‘the electorate’ anymore. Instead, they prefer to change their message depending on which ethnic, gender or generational pocket they’re talking to. Just look at Labour’s pink bus, Operation Black Vote and the Tories wooing of the ‘grey vote’. The end result is implicitly divisive, hinting that the young have different interests to the old, blacks think differently to whites, and women are a distinctive political species.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2015)

I would include Spiked in the group of right-wingers who are appropriating identity politics, just for different groups.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I would include Spiked in the group of right-wingers who are appropriating identity politics, just for different groups.



Indeed.


----------



## agricola (Feb 21, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Reactionaries really have cottoned on to this nonsense in recent years which is why you have Blairite students successfully using it to outmanoeuvre left-wing students in the NUS, Lib Dem councillors accusing Syriza of racism (and this being taken seriously by groups like London Black Revolutionaries) and the appropriation of intersectionalist language by MRAs and Gamergaters. They can do this because this 'politics' is so utterly devoid of content and a theoretical basis but at the same time is treated seriously by a vocal minority, people said for years that the right would do it and they have.



This, really.  The problem is though that it will always be very easy for them to do it.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 21, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Reactionaries really have cottoned on to this nonsense in recent years which is why you have Blairite students successfully using it to outmanoeuvre left-wing students in the NUS, Lib Dem councillors accusing Syriza of racism (and this being taken seriously by groups like London Black Revolutionaries) and the appropriation of intersectionalist language by MRAs and Gamergaters. They can do this because this 'politics' is so utterly devoid of content and a theoretical basis but at the same time is treated seriously by a vocal minority, people said for years that the right would do it and they have.



London Black Revolutionaries don't half come out with some rubbish on their Facebook page.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 21, 2015)

agricola said:


> This, really.  The problem is though that it will always be very easy for them to do it.



There's the option of calling bullshit on it, I guess.


----------



## agricola (Feb 21, 2015)

8ball said:


> There's the option of calling bullshit on it, I guess.



True, but of course that is usually an option when someone comes out with intersectionalisms.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 21, 2015)

Weird SEP website defends racist, classist 'rapper' Iggy Azalea lol. They actually chose probably the only prominent racist white rapper to make this point about.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 21, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Reactionaries really have cottoned on to this nonsense in recent years which is why you have Blairite students successfully using it to outmanoeuvre left-wing students in the NUS, Lib Dem councillors accusing Syriza of racism (and this being taken seriously by groups like London Black Revolutionaries) and the appropriation of intersectionalist language by MRAs and Gamergaters. They can do this because this 'politics' is so utterly devoid of content and a theoretical basis but at the same time is treated seriously by a vocal minority, people said for years that the right would do it and they have.



I'm not sure it's a case of reactionaries appropriating it so much as it being inherently reactionary to begin with tbh


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2015)

J Ed SpineyNorman weepiper et al you know you were talking about the far right using this. Watching this itv doc now. Have a look at this - ex NF fash using the language ic intersectionality and identity politics to gain their organisation charitable status. 

I recommend anyone with an interest in the far right, jihadism, anti fascism etc to watch this i only just started and its really good. 
https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/exposure-charities-behaving-badly


----------



## Jezebelle (Feb 22, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> you're quite right - the 'they' in my statement were the people who attempt to no platform her.  greer understands the class analysis of sex-work and puts it into its correct context.  i also meant that for every middle class escort who has "chosen freely" to go into sex work and finds it releatively safe and profitable, there are half a dozen working class women who are chosing between sex work and starvation, or sex work and violence, who work in unsafe situations for little or no profit.  their choices are not free - nor are those women who are pimped out, etc etc.  enshrining into law the freedoms of the middle classes is to enshrine into law the abuse of the lower classes, IYSWIM.


Oh I see, thought you were talking about the commentariat. You're right, except I'm not convinced over the effectiveness of laws in making things safer. I know some organisation's keep 'dodgy punter lists' and there's (or was) a website for sex workers to warn each other about dangerous men. Same names or descriptions would come up time and time again. These are the kinds of things I see as being more useful at dealing with the realities of sex work.


----------



## Jezebelle (Feb 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> It's also worth mentioning that one of the biggest issues that trans women face is actually economic coercion into sex work and 'transsexual porn' due to prejudice and lack of other options.  Don't see the twittersectionalists going on about that tho. I saw a tweet today saying that using the term 'fgm' is actually transphobic


Germaine Greer also mentions that, and the high cost of surgery, in her book that first caused all this outrage.


----------



## Jezebelle (Feb 22, 2015)

weepiper said:


> That's the same kind of people who think any kind of discussion about periods or endometriosis or any of the other things that genuinely do only affect women born women is transphobic. They can fuck off. I have no tolerance for that sort of nonsense whatsoever.


I came across this recently during a discussion about periods on a feminist site. Basically, a neo-liberal equality feminist was having a go at a doctor in the UK who was calling for the option of paid 'period leave'; saying it was a ridiculous idea to allow women to miss 'valuable days off work for something so minor as periods'. Lots of women started having a go back at her, which led to what I thought was an important discussion about the impact of periods on our lives. But there was this small group who kept repeating stuff like, 'I'm a man who has periods' or 'I'm a women that doesn't have periods' so everyone should say people who have periods'. Some were calling anyone who'd used the word women transphobic; others were politely asking us to be more considerate, but it was an irritating distraction. Also helped me see how this kind of thing can be about more than policing language. It can end up with self-important side issues overtaking and ultimately, holding-back any kind of progress.


----------



## Jezebelle (Feb 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> There was a case in the US recently where a woman who claimed sex discrimination because of not being allowed to breastfeed had her case thrown out because 'men can also lactate'
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6653418


That's a really good example of side issues being used as excuses to deny employment rights and worsen working conditions.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

agricola said:


> True, but of course that is usually an option when someone comes out with intersectionalisms.



Funny, that.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2015)

Jezebelle said:


> I came across this recently during a discussion about periods on a feminist site. Basically, a neo-liberal equality feminist was having a go at a doctor in the UK who was calling for the option of paid 'period leave'; saying it was a ridiculous idea to allow women to miss 'valuable days off work for something so minor as periods'. Lots of women started having a go back at her, which led to what I thought was an important discussion about the impact of periods on our lives. But there was this small group who kept repeating stuff like, 'I'm a man who has periods' or 'I'm a women that doesn't have periods' so everyone should say people who have periods'. Some were calling anyone who'd used the word women transphobic; others were politely asking us to be more considerate, but it was an irritating distraction. Also helped me see how this kind of thing can be about more than policing language. It can end up with self-important side issues overtaking and ultimately, holding-back any kind of progress.



I'm starting to have less and less sympathy tbh. There's a really nasty misogynistic streak in a lot of trans politics and these activists are calling literally anyone who disagrees with them a terf. Some of the stuff they come out with is incredibly fucked up, and i mean this group rather than trans people in general before anyone starts.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 22, 2015)

Surely the solution should be that people should be allowed to breastfeed their infant or make allowances for the impact of periods, regardless of whether the person in question is (or self-identifies) as female or not?

Or is that too sensible?


----------



## toggle (Feb 22, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Surely the solution should be that people should be allowed to breastfeed their infant or make allowances for the impact of periods, regardless of whether the person in question is (or self-identifies) as female or not?
> 
> Or is that too sensible?



it is. but there's an unfortunate number of people who consider that anyhting offered to any group that is compensatory for any form of disability/problem/illness/need/etc is a direct attack on everyone else. the sort who would complain that someone needing time off if they had periods that were cripplingly painful should allow them days off cause they suffer by not being allowed to go play golf. the sort with the complete lack of empathy that won't allow them to comprehend that someone would probably rather be at work feeling fine than at home feeling like their insides were being torn out


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2015)

The above is so true about attitudes to single mums as well. A disturbing amount of blokes really do like to prove their manliness by making asinine comments to other blokes about how "she shouldn't have had kids then" when a single mum has to leave work early to pick up a sick or injured kid.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 22, 2015)

Don't those kind of people ever get sick or injured? I'm sure if they just broke their leg or were barfing their guts out they'd want allowances made for them. It just strikes me as so pettily mean-spirited to perceive the misfortune of others in such a miserly light.

It must be a miserable existence to think so little of one's fellows. Never mind that the rich and powerful do far worse as a matter of course, "that person over there is on the take!". Sweet suffering fuck.


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## weepiper (Feb 22, 2015)

It's bizarre. 'I am being discriminated against because you are not offering_ me_ any allowances for something that does not and will not ever affect me!!'


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## J Ed (Feb 22, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Don't those kind of people ever get sick or injured?



You just don't understand - only when they/their friends get sick they are actually sick whereas everyone else is just lying to get out of feeling as miserable as they do.


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## toggle (Feb 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


> You just don't understand - only when they/their friends get sick they are actually sick whereas everyone else is just lying to get out of feeling as miserable as they do.


and they experience events that are genuinely unplanned disasters. everyone else is being irresponsible and expecting other people to cover for them


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## J Ed (Feb 22, 2015)

Also fuck the people who come into work sick and make everyone else ill, do no work, stay sick for ages and brag about how they come into work sick while "pussies" take the time off to get better.


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## comrade spurski (Feb 22, 2015)

Sickness is such an issue in work.
5 days or over in a 12 month period puts you on formal sickness procedures in my council (which is pretty much like most employers)
People are forced into work when ill due to fear of disciplinary action and make others ill...who in turn go to work.
The NHS say to stay at home when you have a bad cold so you do not spread it but that is just not possible.
Employers want to know your sickness over a 2 year period  so one bout of the flu 18 months ago can and does cost people new jobs.
In years to come I can see that there will be medical research into the negative health implications of these policies.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Also fuck the people who come into work sick and make everyone else ill, do no work, stay sick for ages and brag about how they come into work sick while "pussies" take the time off to get better.


fourby owners who heroically make forth when even the man on the news said 'don't travel' making everyone else look like cunts. No matter that every two out of ten of you cunts cause the biggest headache for the fire bods when they fish your entitled arse out of the river eh. YOU TRIED TO GET TO WORK AND MAKE THE MAN MORE MONEY


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## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2015)

if there was a proper time and motion study done today considering all factors the schedule would be revised down heavily


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## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

toggle said:


> it is. but there's an unfortunate number of people who consider that anyhting offered to any group that is compensatory for any form of disability/problem/illness/need/etc is a direct attack on everyone else.



It's a sign of how the capitalist culture machine has been so incredibly successful - like when people who've never been ill complain about socialised health care.


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## Bakunin (Feb 22, 2015)

8ball said:


> It's a sign of how the capitalist culture machine has been so incredibly successful - like when people who've never been ill complain about socialised health care.



Perhaps it's because they've never needed socialised health care that they don't see a need for it, to be fair. They often change their minds when it's their neck on the block.


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## J Ed (Feb 22, 2015)

8ball said:


> It's a sign of how the capitalist culture machine has been so incredibly successful - like when people who've never been ill complain about socialised health care.



There are no adults who have _never_ been ill, and certainly none who have never had an ill family member.


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## Bakunin (Feb 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


> There are no adults who have _never_ been ill, and certainly none who have never had an ill family member.



I should know. The staff at my local hospital are practically on first name terms with my family.


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## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


> There are no adults who have _never_ been ill, and certainly none who have never had an ill family member.



Certainly the latter, yes.  Though there are plenty where the illnesses are not expensive ones of the kind that can utterly wipe out the finances of even quite well off people, so they resent those people where a lot of money gets spent.


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## toggle (Feb 22, 2015)

8ball said:


> Certainly the latter, yes.  Though there are plenty where the illnesses are not expensive ones of the kind that can utterly wipe out the finances of even quite well off people, so they resent those people where a lot of money gets spent.



even if they have had these expereinces, I think tghere's just a resentment of other people. and a lot of assumptions that their lifestyle is the right choice and others are wrong. it's an entitlement to have more than everyone else and a belief that everyone else should recognise their entitlement. 

plus, in a lot of people, the sort who do get insurance of some form and think that means they shouldn't have to pay for the nhs, a complete lack of understanding of how the nhs subsidises their insurance costs. private hospitals here do not have to train staff, they do not have to provide a full range of services, they do not have to provide intensive care or emergancy coverage. because they employ nhs trained staff, they get to specialise in easy cases where they can make the most profit, and if there's a problem, they can transfer the patient to a nhs facility.


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## co-op (Feb 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I'm starting to have less and less sympathy tbh. There's a really nasty misogynistic streak in a lot of trans politics and these activists are calling literally anyone who disagrees with them a terf. Some of the stuff they come out with is incredibly fucked up, and i mean this group rather than trans people in general before anyone starts.



Yep, important to distinguish between different groups within the trans community of course but some of the loudest m-t-f trans activists look basically the same as super-reactionary mra types to me, just with breast transplants added. It's very hard to know what proportion of the trans world these people speak for but they have very successfully appropriated liberationist equality language in pursuit of a very unliberationary and reactionary worldview and I think that has confused quite a few well-meaning people into automatically supporting them, or allowing them to set an agenda unopposed.


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## J Ed (Feb 22, 2015)

Worth noting that while I find a lot of this online 'activism' on both sides absolutely awful and actively harmful from what little I know of it, none of the trans people I have met in real life have had these views or behaved in a way that I would consider misogynist at all whereas I have met a handful of people with very dodgy views towards trans people though tbf none of them feminist AFAIK.


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## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2015)

I agree 100%. 


J Ed said:


> Worth noting that while I find a lot of this online 'activism' on both sides absolutely awful and actively harmful from what little I know of it, none of the trans people I have met in real life have had these views or behaved in a way that I would consider misogynist at all whereas I have met a handful of people with very dodgy views towards trans people though tbf none of them feminist AFAIK.


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## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

Isn't it just obvious that men who have a problem with women are going to have a problem with trans people, though?


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## J Ed (Feb 22, 2015)

8ball said:


> Isn't it just obvious that men who have a problem with women are going to have a problem with trans people, though?



Seems intuitive to me although I have seen MRAs use trans issues to attack real and/or straw feminists, rarely or never out of any actual concern for trans people though I suspect.


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## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Seems intuitive to me although I have seen MRAs use trans issues to attack real and/or straw feminists, rarely or never out of any actual concern for trans people though I suspect.



Yeah, but that's just because they want to attack feminists.


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## toggle (Feb 22, 2015)

co-op said:


> Yep, important to distinguish between different groups within the trans community of course but some of the loudest m-t-f trans activists look basically the same as super-reactionary mra types to me, just with breast transplants added. It's very hard to know what proportion of the trans world these people speak for but they have very successfully appropriated liberationist equality language in pursuit of a very unliberationary and reactionary worldview and I think that has confused quite a few well-meaning people into automatically supporting them, or allowing them to set an agenda unopposed.





there's a point where i have learnt to look at some of the language in terms of my own understanding of the language i use. I make a statement about the dangers of sexual assault by men, should I have to add the qualifier every single fucking time that of course I know not all men are rapists. and when a transperson complains about getting a raw deal from society, it dosen't need me piping up and saying i'm not transphobic and making the discussion about me, not transphobia. but some of the language used can make that very difficult. 

but....

having seen the difference between the loudest activists and some of the transpeople i've had more considered discussions with, i'm inclined to believe the situation is similar to that of feminism. the majority of the people who are self appointed feminist role models and campaign leaders do not represent anyone other than themselves or small loud factions. they don't really seem to have much in common with either my views or the majority of feminists I know. I don't think it takes me much of a leap of the imagination to realise that many of the people who have got the ability to make the most people listen to them are the people that have the status to do so and perhaps face the lowest levels of discrimination on other factors.


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## Nigel Irritable (Feb 22, 2015)

I don't think I've ever seen anything from a "trans activist" that reminds me of MRAs. I've seen some stupid or ill-considered things from trans activists, just as I've seen stupid or ill-considered arguments from every other group of people, but nothing that puts me in mind of the peculiar MRA outlook. MRAness generally has a certain level of obliviousness to the reality of gendered oppression as a prerequisite, and while trans activists may in many cases have views on gender that I might not entirely agree with, they rarely have the option of being oblivious in quite that way.


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## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Also fuck the people who come into work sick and make everyone else ill, do no work, stay sick for ages and brag about how they come into work sick while "pussies" take the time off to get better.


There's a nasty chest infection currently going round our office because someone caught it from his children and came into work with it. Several people have had to get antibiotics for it, and at least two of us are immunosuppressed to some degree 

We have one of those policies with a Bradford factor threshold.


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## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

Yep, my Bradford score has been fucked for all but 1 year since they started it.
You can have one illness that goes on for weeks, but a few shorter ones and you're buggered.


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## toggle (Feb 22, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> There's a nasty chest infection currently going round our office because someone caught it from his children and came into work with it. Several people have had to get antibiotics for it, and at least two of us are immunosuppressed to some degree
> 
> We have one of those policies with a Bradford factor threshold.



are you safe from that? can you call time off from that part of your disability, cause immunosupression makes it harder for you/


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## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2015)

Thats where the terf types get it wrong because while I think _some_ of what they say is based on actual concerns (kids being forced into gender roles and that, 'transgender children' in the states who dont conform to stereotyped gender norms being prescribed hormones at younger and younger ages, the breastfeeding/discrimination thing, the whole myth of 'male/female brains') they demonise people who have issues with gender identity, or say their all self hating lesbians etc, rather than to look at _why_ this is happening and the social roots of gender dysphoria or gender roles etc (if indeed there are any). it isn't just that all trans women are sexual predators trying to get access to womens spaces. as with iran forcing gay men into this surgery, there are areas of the world where the idea of innate gender etc has been used to stigmatise and medicalise homosexuality. imo trans people must have the right to transition and they must have the right to appropriate medical care, but it would be nice to live in the world where 'a man' didnt have to wear certain clothes and carry out certain behaviours and 'a woman' didnt have to do likewise.

I'm a gender non conforming woman in many ways and it does disturb me that in certain parts of the us were i to be growing up now i might well be encouraged to transition because im not interested in a lot of stereotypically girly thing. I think the idea that mens and womens brains are fundamentally different is a dangerous idea and i think this is where a lot of the anxiety is coming from. But rather than simply attacking this what the cathy brennan type terfs seem to be doing is saying that all trans women are rapists for wanting to go in a girls bathroom etc whereas if someone is living as a women and has had the surgery or even if they havent, it may be very dangerous to use a mens bathroom. What i have also noticed them doing is saying that all women are equally oppressed everywhere in the world whereas this is simply not the case. The situation of a middle class feminist in the uk is very different to a woman living under ISIS or even a working class woman. (ETA: but there is where the whole 'cis privilege' thing is bollocks because its demonstratably untrue that a) _all_ trans women are underprivileged against _all_ women born women - id rather be a pre op trans woman, even a closeted one, living under ISIS for example - and that gender roles automatically privilege them over trans women - and b) that the latter as a whole have _caused_ the situation where trans people are persecuted etc to come about.)

However, I think in some ways the situation of women in the west has fundamentally changed in some ways in the last 70 years because of capitalism but to read some of the terf stuff we might as well all be living in the 1500s.


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## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2015)

toggle said:


> are you safe from that? can you call time off from that part of your disability, cause immunosupression makes it harder for you/


Anything related to my disability doesn't get counted but I had to do the research and the union had to present it to them to get it taken up. Non-disability related illness is recorded in the usual way.


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## 8ball (Feb 22, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Anything related to my disability doesn't get counted but I had to do the research and the union had to present it to them to get it taken up. Non-disability related illness is recorded in the usual way.



Almost all my days off are related to a single known condition so I don't get penalised (there was no quibble about this - I think my employer must be nicer than most).

I don't think it's fair that someone would get penalised for being ill if it were a bunch of single illnesses of unknown cause, though.  It's weasly way of using numbers to accuse someone of taking the piss.


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## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2015)

I think some radical feminists dont take into account the changes in the labour market that mean that women increasingly are involved in top level management etc (although nowhere near the scale of men) and the expectation that w/c women are *both* expected to work long hours and be bread winners and look after children and the traditional role women have always had. And working class womens work doing things like commercial surrogacy for wealthy westerners in the third world or cleaning people's houses, terfs on the lines of cathy brennan (a payday loan lawyer) or the ones who do some of those transphobic blogs don't have a good deal to say about it. The other thing is the trend towards diagnosing increased numbers of very young children with gender identity issues and the pressure some younger lesbians and gay men are now describing to transition has also coincided with increased medicalisation and pathologisation of other conditions as well. (Dont expect any understanding from employers about this though.  

I haven't seen any attempts by terfs to bring this into their analysis at all. It's all women are oppressed by men without acknowledging the fact it is increasingly women doing that oppression and making these decisions. And the fact the increased roll back of womens rights, abortion rights and so on and the move back to the enforcement of gender roles is taking place at a time when other social protections are being comprehensively dismantled. No no its just men being cunts as usual. 

I've got a lot of sympathy towards the anti psychiatry movement and the idea that many mental health conditions are caused by social factors and therefore shouldn't always be treated with medical means. It's not implausible that a society that sets a great store by how men and women should act could at least contribute to the development of gender dysphoria in some people, shit ive sometimes wished i could be a man so i could be treated in a certain way, have more respect given to my opinions etc, i usually avoid talking about feminism and my experiences online for this reason. 

So no *not* a conspiracy against lesbians and women's spaces although there are some very nasty misogynists in that movement who seem to be very vocal in using this language to set the agenda as co-op says. And there are terf types that say all sex sith a man is rape because we are socialised into compulsory heterosexuality which is very similar to the 'sheeple' arguments imo. Feminism used to be about a systematic analysis of women's oppression rather than identy politics which is why these debates are so depressing. Because there is a lot that could be worked together on i think.


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 22, 2015)

yes, i think i agree with all that frogwoman.


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## comrade spurski (Feb 22, 2015)

8ball said:


> Almost all my days off are related to a single known condition so I don't get penalised (there was no quibble about this - I think my employer must be nicer than most).
> 
> I don't think it's fair that someone would get penalised for being ill if it were a bunch of single illnesses of unknown cause, though.  It's weasly way of using numbers to accuse someone of taking the piss.



I have known of cases where someone had an accident in work. They were off long term, on several occasions due to the effects of the accident and were sacked. As the council followed their sickness procedure it was deemed to be legally ok. Those who had the accidents and were sacked won compensation for the accident. The law is an arse regarding sickness in work. 
I am glad for you that your employer is reasonable with you...there is no reason for them to be otherwise but it don't seem stop many other employers of being unreasonable as fuck.


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## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2015)

I think in a lot of place the longer you've worked there the better it is. In some companies the permanant staff have some great perks when the temps and newer staff are completely disposable, total divide and rule strategy.


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## comrade spurski (Feb 22, 2015)

think that's true but there is also a culture of "if your face fits" that has re-emerged in council's. Some are allowed to "work from home" so they are never off sick while others never get that option and it is purely dependent on if your face fits.
The same is true in schools (I work in one) ... they have become mini fiefdoms for ego maniacs...if you are liked you get whatever you want but if not they harass the fuck out of you. 
In my previous school (when the deputy was made the new head 6 months before the old head retired) in a 9 month period a premises manager, an office worker, a nursery worker, the Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator, 6 teachers and 4 teaching assistants (including me) all left...14 staff  left which was about half the total school staff.
In my current school we have a similar situation (with the added joy of an Executive Head) and so far we have lost 7 staff since july...there are many others actively looking for work.
Sickness is part of the bullying culture in work


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## co-op (Feb 23, 2015)

toggle said:


> having seen the difference between the loudest activists and some of the transpeople i've had more considered discussions with, i'm inclined to believe the situation is similar to that of feminism. the majority of the people who are self appointed feminist role models and campaign leaders do not represent anyone other than themselves or small loud factions. they don't really seem to have much in common with either my views or the majority of feminists I know. I don't think it takes me much of a leap of the imagination to realise that many of the people who have got the ability to make the most people listen to them are the people that have the status to do so and perhaps face the lowest levels of discrimination on other factors.



I agree totally - the "mtf trans vs radical feminist" thing is really just sections of both those groupings attacking each other and it seems unlikely to me that they are very representative sections since the positions taken on both sides seem aggressively provocative to me. I think your point that the loudest voices are disproportionately likely to be high-status ones is precisely why this kind of debate is tricky to understand for outsiders who are leftish/liberalish; the language used in the argument is so often the language of the liberationist wing of the left, yet harnessed to ideological positions that are anything but radical. But they are often the loudest voices in public debate, maybe just because a good shouty row is more fascinating than anything more measured and so that's what gets publicised.


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## co-op (Feb 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I don't think I've ever seen anything from a "trans activist" that reminds me of MRAs. I've seen some stupid or ill-considered things from trans activists, just as I've seen stupid or ill-considered arguments from every other group of people, but nothing that puts me in mind of the peculiar MRA outlook. MRAness generally has a certain level of obliviousness to the reality of gendered oppression as a prerequisite, and while trans activists may in many cases have views on gender that I might not entirely agree with, they rarely have the option of being oblivious in quite that way.



Yes it was simplistic of me to lump the far end of the mtf trans spectrum with MRAs, because ideologically it is probably not coming from the same place, but some stuff I have read about from the States (with all the usual caveats about internet news) is pretty weird and disturbing, feminists being physically attacked and threatened at meetings, "Real Women have Dicks" + a large penis drawing graffitti sprayed on the walls outside a women-only festival which has a protest trans festival held outside it etc. This is almost the MO of an obsessive MRA.


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## co-op (Feb 23, 2015)

I mean the violence that mtf trans people really suffer in reality is overwhelmingly carried out by men, just as the violence carried out against women is overwhelmingly carried out by men (and the violence against men, for that matter). For any trans activists to be targeting radical feminists first, seems strange to me. Why not target men or the issues surrounding men and violence?


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## Greebo (Feb 23, 2015)

co-op said:


> <snip> Why not target men or the issues surrounding men and violence?


There's probably similar thinking behind attacking a woman wearing a fur coat but not a leathered up biker.


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## treelover (Feb 23, 2015)

J Ed said:


> You just don't understand - only when they/their friends get sick they are actually sick whereas everyone else is just lying to get out of feeling as miserable as they do.




I'm afraid you have just summed up the spirit of the age.


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## treelover (Feb 23, 2015)

comrade spurski said:


> Sickness is such an issue in work.
> 5 days or over in a 12 month period puts you on formal sickness procedures in my council (which is pretty much like most employers)
> *People are forced into work when ill due to fear of disciplinary action and make others ill...who in turn go to work.*
> The NHS say to stay at home when you have a bad cold so you do not spread it but that is just not possible.
> ...




Them, because of this, viruses, bugs, etc stay around much longer and eventually affect wider society, its a false economy.


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## co-op (Feb 23, 2015)

Greebo said:


> There's probably similar thinking behind attacking a woman wearing a fur coat but not a leathered up biker.



Yep, that's an interesting one too because of course it has an apparent 'class' aspect because fur has all the connotations of wealth too, but why is it always a _woman_-wearing-a-fur-coat who has to be the target?


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## Greebo (Feb 23, 2015)

treelover said:


> I'm afraid you have just summed up the spirit of the age.


It's worse than that at times.  A lesson in the conjugation of adjectives:  _My _children are freespirited and inspiringly creative; _your_ children are boistrous, overimaginative, and could do with a little more hands on parenting; _their_ children are obnoxious lawless lying brats.


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## smokedout (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> ETA: but there is where the whole 'cis privilege' thing is bollocks because its demonstratably untrue that a) _all_ trans women are underprivileged against _all_ women born women



hmm, it's demonstrably untrue that all black men are underprivileged against _all_ white men, that doesn't negate racism



> id rather be a pre op trans woman, even a closeted one, living under ISIS for example



I think there's a strong causal relationship between the words closeted and living in that environment


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## Greebo (Feb 23, 2015)

co-op said:


> Yep, that's an interesting one too because of course it has an apparent 'class' aspect because fur has all the connotations of wealth too, but why is it always a _woman_-wearing-a-fur-coat who has to be the target?


Because sexist assumptions remain about how likely a woman is to be able to injure you, compared to a man in the same situation?


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## Greebo (Feb 23, 2015)

smokedout said:


> <snip> think there's a strong causal relationship between the words closeted and living in that environment


Unfortunate, but highly probable.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

co-op said:


> I agree totally - the "mtf trans vs radical feminist" thing is really just sections of both those groupings attacking each other and it seems unlikely to me that they are very representative sections since the positions taken on both sides seem aggressively provocative to me. I think your point that the loudest voices are disproportionately likely to be high-status ones is precisely why this kind of debate is tricky to understand for outsiders who are leftish/liberalish; the language used in the argument is so often the language of the liberationist wing of the left, yet harnessed to ideological positions that are anything but radical. But they are often the loudest voices in public debate, maybe just because a good shouty row is more fascinating than anything more measured and so that's what gets publicised.



the other factor is that when it's the highest status voices speaking for the whole group, they are the ones who are least likely to have experienced multiple prejudices. they are not at one of those intersections. and I know what intersectionalism has turned into, but it was supposed to be about letting the people who had expereinced multiple prejudices speak about how to create a movement that attacked all of the multiple prejudices they expereinced. the black disabled lesbian of cliche fame was supposed to be the person who brought us together.

but what many of this lot have expereinced is morelikely to be about the single issue. they are less capable of understanding the multiple interlaced facets and they turn it into the hierarchy and that place where people look at oneupmanship over other groups in the search for attention and funding. now obviously, i don't think there's common ground in the terf wars, with their mutually opposed positions, but ti's fights like these that highlight th problems in single issue identity politics


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

co-op said:


> I mean the violence that mtf trans people really suffer in reality is overwhelmingly carried out by men, just as the violence carried out against women is overwhelmingly carried out by men (and the violence against men, for that matter). For any trans activists to be targeting radical feminists first, seems strange to me. Why not target men or the issues surrounding men and violence?



google for some of the blogs listing the activities of cathy brennan if you want an answer to that. i'd suggest a stiff drink first. but whatever rhetoric the most vehement transactivists use. it pales in comparison to stunts like outing trans teens in coordination with anti gay groups

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cathy_Brennan seems to be a reasonable summary of what i've read elsewhere


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

its not (usually)_women _that are commiting violence etc and privileged over trans people is it tho? What about the thousands of women that die as a result of dv? I'm not denying transphobia exists, im saying that the idea that cis women are not privileged over trans women and are by and large not the cause of it.

Although we are seeing an increased number of women carry out the sort of violence usually associated with men (joanna dennehy, the gang who kicked the homeless man to death a few weeks ago) and i think this is worth examining.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I think some radical feminists dont take into account the changes in the labour market that mean that women increasingly are involved in top level management etc (although nowhere near the scale of men) and the expectation that w/c women are *both* expected to work long hours and be bread winners and look after children and the traditional role women have always had. And working class womens work doing things like commercial surrogacy for wealthy westerners in the third world or cleaning people's houses, terfs on the lines of cathy brennan (a payday loan lawyer) or the ones who do some of those transphobic blogs don't have a good deal to say about it. The other thing is the trend towards diagnosing increased numbers of very young children with gender identity issues and the pressure some younger lesbians and gay men are now describing to transition has also coincided with increased medicalisation and pathologisation of other conditions as well. (Dont expect any understanding from employers about this though.
> 
> I haven't seen any attempts by terfs to bring this into their analysis at all. It's all women are oppressed by men without acknowledging the fact it is increasingly women doing that oppression and making these decisions. And the fact the increased roll back of womens rights, abortion rights and so on and the move back to the enforcement of gender roles is taking place at a time when other social protections are being comprehensively dismantled. No no its just men being cunts as usual.
> 
> ...



iirc, this sums up as that theres often a real point on both sides, but ti's hidden behind the absolutism and shreiking at each other?

i'm with you on that


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> its not (usually)_women _that are commiting violence etc and privileged over trans people is it tho? What about the thousands of women that die as a result of dv? I'm not denying transphobia exists, im saying that the idea that cis women are not privileged over trans women and are by and large not the cause of it.
> 
> Although we are seeing an increased number of women carry out the sort of violence usually associated with men (joanna dennehy, the gang who kicked the homeless man to death a few weeks ago) and i think this is worth examining.



aggree it's complicated. will reply properly when the cat stops trying to dance on me


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## smokedout (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> its not (usually)_women _that are commiting violence etc and privileged over trans people is it tho? What about the thousands of women that die as a result of dv? I'm not denying transphobia exists, im saying that the idea that cis women are not privileged over trans women and are by and large not the cause of it.



I think the terf/trans war is a smokescreen really and not the place to examine this, what seems to have emerged there is a highly personalised ugly spat that left behind any semblance of real politics or analysis a long time ago

but seems to me if transphobia exists then to an extent non-trans privilege must also exist, as in a group that isn't susceptible to transphobia - which is something that manifests in many of the same ways misogyny does, as in violence, rape, pressure to confirm to beauty/gender ideals, workplace discrimination but also in some novel ways such as rejection by family, street ridicule/abuse, tabloid outings and generalised everyday anxiety and risk in areas non-trans people never consider, such as which gendered toilets to use or whether you can try clothes on in a shop


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

right, she's buggered off for now.

no, the violence is not usually the fault of women, but anti trans positions can help in justifying that. 

the privilage issue, IDK. I really won't want to get into a long discussion based on a hierarchical discourse that i abhor. because I don't think we should be having the debate on those terms. it should be possible to have discussions about social pressures on gender identity and gender expectations in a way that looks for ways to help everyone understand the issues. it should be possible to have a discussion about some of the things you mentioned in your longer post above, without being attacked by either side for accepting that transpeople exist or that wanting to discuss some of the factors that may affect gender identity equals denying trans* existance. 

the part that the terfs have that is a point that is hidden behind the bullshit is how living as your chosen gender is defined by gender expectations. is being transgender a medical or social 'issue'. if it was entirely a social issue, then their point about how it's all based on gender expectations and by removing the expectation of conformity, allowing anyone to express whatever characteristic they want without prejudice, would be a valid one, but i do not believe that is all transgenderism* is. But the other place where discussion of gender expectation is important is where someone is required to live as their chosen gende to transition. what is 'living as a man/woman' and who gets to make that definiation. and i have an impression that at times, this can be based on some gender stereotypes, where what is required of someone to transition isn't something i recognise in my own expereinces of being female. 

but the key factor is that many of these discussions aren't able to take place because of the screaming. and nothing is going to get dealt with while discussion is only a battleground between the two sides' extremists. 


* IDk if that's the right term to use or not. the medical one is gender identity disorder. or gender dysphoria, and I don't like the way those terms pathologise people.


----------



## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

smokedout said:


> I think the terf/trans war is a smokescreen really and not the place to examine this, what seems to have emerged there is a highly personalised ugly spat that left behind any semblance of real politics or analysis a long time ago
> 
> but seems to me if transphobia exists then to an extent non-trans privilege must also exist, as in a group that isn't susceptible to transphobia - which is something that manifests in many of the same ways misogyny does, as in violence, rape, pressure to confirm to beauty/gender ideals, workplace discrimination but also in some novel ways such as rejection by family, street ridicule/abuse, tabloid outings and generalised everyday anxiety and risk in areas non-trans people never consider, such as which gendered toilets to use or whether you can try clothes on in a shop



and access to support services, eg shelters.


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 23, 2015)

to my mind the sourceof the whole problem is gender, an arbitrary patriarchal social construct.  the problem is two different and conflicting ways of defining the word "woman".  either a 'woman' is something created by patriarchal society to be the sex and domestic work class, or it is something innate that you just are and has recognisable traits that it can be defined by.  in order to be recognised as transgender by the medical system one needs to prove that they 'live as a woman' etc.  but what is living as a woman?  many feminists would say that living as a woman and being female are not the same thing, because sex and gender are different, and their feminism is about destroying the notions of gender and the limitations and roles pushed onto women that are gender based, and not innate to their genitals.  so if these feminists think that performance femininity is bad for women, and transwomen are required to show their performance femininity in order to get the surgery they need, there's a conflict of interests.

or maybe i've got it all arse about face again, i dunno.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 23, 2015)

toggle said:


> the part that the terfs have that is a point that is hidden behind the bullshit is how living as your chosen gender is defined by gender expectations. is being transgender a medical or social 'issue'. if it was entirely a social issue, then their point about how it's all based on gender expectations and by removing the expectation of conformity, allowing anyone to express whatever characteristic they want without prejudice, would be a valid one, but i do not believe that is all transgenderism* is. But the other place where discussion of gender expectation is important is where someone is required to live as their chosen gende to transition. what is 'living as a man/woman' and who gets to make that definiation. and i have an impression that at times, this can be based on some gender stereotypes, where what is required of someone to transition isn't something i recognise in my own expereinces of being female.



the courts, doctors and the government get to make those distinctions and those distinctions are based on traditional gender identities and presentation.  this places trans-people in a near impossible situation, of course if you want to do away with gender altogether then it is obscene that there are laws that now codify what gender, or more importantly what man or woman is, but in the real world which is a highly gendered society this is the only way trans people can gain any kind of equal rights. so it's a bodge,and reveals that a radical view of transsexuality and how it could be lived/experienced is incompatible with, and impossible under modern patriachy, and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> to my mind the sourceof the whole problem is gender, an arbitrary patriarchal social construct.  the problem is two different and conflicting ways of defining the word "woman".  either a 'woman' is something created by patriarchal society to be the sex and domestic work class, or it is something innate that you just are and has recognisable traits that it can be defined by.  in order to be recognised as transgender by the medical system one needs to prove that they 'live as a woman' etc.  but what is living as a woman?  many feminists would say that living as a woman and being female are not the same thing, because sex and gender are different, and their feminism is about destroying the notions of gender and the limitations and roles pushed onto women that are gender based, and not innate to their genitals.  so if these feminists think that performance femininity is bad for women, and transwomen are required to show their performance femininity in order to get the surgery they need, there's a conflict of interests.
> 
> or maybe i've got it all arse about face again, i dunno.



i think you're right in that there's a belief that transgenderism is nothing but 'performance femininity'. but while I have a huge problem with the gender expectations, I think there's more to transgenderism than that. being in the wrong body is about how someone relates to their own body. and while gender expectations can be part of the equation, they aren't the dominant factor


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

smokedout said:


> the courts, doctors and the government get to make those distinctions and those distinctions are based on traditional gender identities and presentation.  this places trans-people in a near impossible situation, of course if you want to do away with gender altogether then it is obscene that there are laws that now codify what gender, or more importantly what man or woman is, but in the real world which is a highly gendered society this is the only way trans people can gain any kind of equal rights. so it's a bodge,and reveals that a radical view of transsexuality and how it could be lived/experienced is incompatible with, and impossible under modern patriachy, and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.



Yes. And this particular facet of the discussion tdoes tend to lack loud enough trans* voices. IMo, mainly because those who aggree would get it from both sides of the extremes. 



Primarily, I call myself a feminist. and I do think that if we could have a sane and inclusive discussion about these issues, then it would be to the benefit of feminism as a whole as well as to trans* people


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

I'd also say the extreme terf discourse is by and large not something i recognise from my own experoences of being a woman. I hardly ever get cat called, i live in a house with three men in their 20s and 30s, as ive been doing for the last two years, and not one has ever tried to rape me or so much as make a pass at me when ive been drunk. i know it is that bad for some women but not everyone is living barefoot and pregnant in a kitchen. The labour market has changed and to some degree the nature of misogyny has also changed. Capitalism compels women to go out to work but as the same time still largely expected to fulfil 'womens roles'. 

That said i've seen some fucking disgusting stuff on twitter from trans activists including one who said they'd like to bash lesbians on the head with a rock for not wanting to sleep with them.


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 23, 2015)

smokedout said:


> and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.



this is quite right and i'm sorry if i came across as blaming them.  what i was trying, clumsily as per usual, to say, is that the problem is patriarchal capitalism.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I'd also say the extreme terf discourse is by and large not something i recognise from my own experoences of being a woman. I hardly ever get cat called, i live in a house with three men in their 20s and 30s, as ive been doing for the last two years, and not one has ever tried to rape me or so much as make a pass at me when ive been drunk. i know it is that bad for some women but not everyone is living barefoot and pregnant in a kitchen. The labour market has changed and to some degree the nature of misogyny has also changed. Capitalism compels women to go out to work but as the same time still largely expected to fulfil 'womens roles'.
> 
> That said i've seen some fucking disgusting stuff on twitter from trans activists including one who said they'd like to bash lesbians on the head with a rock for not wanting to sleep with them.



yeah, fair point, that kind of shit helps no one


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

toggle said:


> yeah, fair point, that kind of shit helps no one



Unfortunately thats not the only example, seen some horrendous stuff directed by this particular group of activists at trans women who disagree with them too.

And yeah i'm sorry too if anything i've written comes across as blaming anyone or being prejudiced.


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

smokedout said:


> the courts, doctors and the government get to make those distinctions and those distinctions are based on traditional gender identities and presentation.  this places trans-people in a near impossible situation, of course if you want to do away with gender altogether then it is obscene that there are laws that now codify what gender, or more importantly what man or woman is, but in the real world which is a highly gendered society this is the only way trans people can gain any kind of equal rights. so it's a bodge,and reveals that a radical view of transsexuality and how it could be lived/experienced is incompatible with, and impossible under modern patriachy, and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.



I agree 100%.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Unfortunately thats not the only example, seen some horrendous stuff directed by this particular group of activists at trans women who disagree with them too.
> 
> And yeah i'm sorry too if anything i've written comes across as blaming anyone or being prejudiced.



clearly both sides have given up on the winning freinds thing. not necessarily a bad thing. the more isolated the screamers become, the more possibility the adults can get some space to talk


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

There are also some blogs i follow from a couple of men who identified as trans at one point and had surgery, but then realised they wanted to live as their birth sex, thirdwaytrans.com and retransition.org. both of them have some really interesting stuff to say.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

and here's one of the other controversial questions. nothing in this post shall be taken as an indicator on my position. because i loathe the whole idea of defining who is and isn't a proper [insert group member here]

i've seen it asked whether some of the people that the 'bash their head in' stuff is directed at are lesbians. to be very blunt, is being lesbian about who you are or who you do? if the mouthpieces for terfism are political lesbians (choose women, because all sex with men is rape), do they speak for gay women? or are they straight women dictating who gay women should sleep with?


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 23, 2015)

a very good question, and one that in a more general sense, we all need to ask ourselves in our activism.  _who do we speak for_?  do they want us to?  if not, do we know better than them?  etc etc


i thought political lesbians were such because you can't have an equal relationship with a man because even the good ones are still tainted (see the _not my nigel _meme) by patriarchy and it's impossible to find a man who hasn't been socialised as a woman-hater.  you can therefore only form a meaningful relationship with another woman whilst patriarchy exists.


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## co-op (Feb 23, 2015)

toggle said:


> and here's one of the other controversial questions. nothing in this post shall be taken as an indicator on my position. because i loathe the whole idea of defining who is and isn't a proper [insert group member here]
> 
> i've seen it asked whether some of the people that the 'bash their head in' stuff is directed at are lesbians. to be very blunt, is being lesbian about who you are or who you do? if the mouthpieces for terfism are political lesbians (choose women, because all sex with men is rape), do they speak for gay women? or are they straight women dictating who gay women should sleep with?





Never even thought of that one.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> a very good question, and one that in a more general sense, we all need to ask ourselves in our activism.  _who do we speak for_?  do they want us to?  if not, do we know better than them?  etc etc
> 
> 
> i thought political lesbians were such because you can't have an equal relationship with a man because even the good ones are still tainted (see the _not my nigel _meme) by patriarchy and it's impossible to find a man who hasn't been socialised as a woman-hater.  you can therefore only form a meaningful relationship with another woman whilst patriarchy exists.


it comes in various shades.

and it also bumps up against whether you can choose your orientation rather than how you express it.and hether that letd you in to which group.


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

There are trans activists who think that not liking certain genitalia is transphobic though: 

http://chelseapoe.com/2015/02/11/terfs-gold-stars-and-ans-misogyny-that-exists-within-porn/


> Being a Gold Star lesbian isn’t an act of trans misogyny. Saying you are a gold star because you don’t like dick however is. Clearly due to the fact that some men have vaginas, some women have penises and there are people are intersex people and non binary people. What saying I don’t like dick so I’m a gold star lesbian means further is you don’t view trans men as men and you don’t view trans women as women.



since when has having a preference for a certain type of genitalia been transphobic? Obviously its not.


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## J Ed (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> There are also some blogs i follow from a couple of men who identified as trans at one point and had surgery, but then realised they wanted to live as their birth sex, thirdwaytrans.com and retransition.org. both of them have some really interesting stuff to say.



A nurse friend has mentioned a few stories like that to me, terrifying


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> There are trans activists who think that not liking certain genitalia is transphobic though:
> 
> http://chelseapoe.com/2015/02/11/terfs-gold-stars-and-ans-misogyny-that-exists-within-porn/
> 
> ...



and it's not IMO, anywhere close to being the most important issue that needs to be discussed. cause there's more important things. there's noright to have sex. and this is a minority issue, even for transwomen, afaik, most are id as hetero-female


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

It might be that some people are ignorant or represses sexually and this is why they don't want to sleep with trans people/ cis men/women but its not itself a bigoted act for not wanting to sleep with someone who has those genitals. If a gay man doesnt want to fuck me hes not a misogynist.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> It might be that some people are ignorant or represses sexually and this is why they don't want to sleep with trans people/ cis men/women but its not itself a bigoted act for not wanting to sleep with someone who has those genitals. If a gay man doesnt want to fuck me hes not a misogynist.



whatever point there is, more ignorance is fixed through education/understanding than abuse.


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

toggle said:


> and it's not IMO, anywhere close to being the most important issue that needs to be discussed. cause there's more important things. there's noright to have sex. and this is a minority issue, even for transwomen, afaik, most are id as hetero-female



Yeah i absolutely agree, theres no suggestion most trans people are like this but there are people (the mostly middle class types with an internet presence you mention) and this needs to be repudiated and exposed. Not by 'the trans community' if such a thing exists as im fully aware most are not like this but by progressive activists and anyone who is involved in doing anything around these issues, just as terf shit already is being repudiated and exposed.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah i absolutely agree, theres no suggestion most trans people are like this but there are people (the mostly middle class types with an internet presence you mention) and this needs to be repudiated and exposed. Not by 'the trans community' as im fully aware most are not like this but by progressive activists and anyone who is involved in doing anything around these issues, just as terf shit already is being repudiated and exposed.



or simply refusing to engage with wide scale debates on a right to sex, on defining holier than thou in-group membership, and on the hierarchies in identity politics. the enemy must be partiarchal capitalism that benefits a very small minority, not each other over who is more of a victim of it.


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

toggle said:


> or simply refusing to engage with wide scale debates on a right to sex, on defining holier than thou in-group membership, and on the hierarchies in identity politics. the enemy must be partiarchal capitalism that benefits a very small minority, not each other over who is more of a victim of it.



Yep theres a shit load we could all work together on.


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## toggle (Feb 23, 2015)

ok, bear with me while I think through this one. cause trying to maintain sanity while creating logic out of this is doing my head in.


the idea of political lesbianism has sought to redefine what a lesbian is. we're back to the do you define as who you fancy, or who you fuck. so it goes like this. while not all women want to have sex with women, all women should refrain from sex with men. so the lesbian is all women who do not have sex with men, regardless of actual sexual orientation. and speaking on behalf of all women who are lesbian by their definition and promoting the idea that proper feminists follow their rules and are better than those who don't.

and while not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis is not transphobic, that agenda is man-phobic (what's the proper word for that?). it is also transphobic by extension, trnaswomen being a subset of men by their definition. 

and if you accepted their logic, then the claims transwomen are seeking to invade women's space and bodies is more comprehensible. 

and that's where the other part of the transphobia comes in. the claims that transition is not about the identity of the person transitioning, but is all about, in effect, raping lesbians. someone else's struggles, and problems, and pain is about them. 

so a lesbian by the usual accepted definition- a woman attracted to women- not wanting to have sex with a person with a penis is not anyhting to do wth transphobia, but in the context of terfism and political lesbianism, that all becomes a bit more complex. and it may well be everything to do with transphobia. 

and now my head really fucking hurts.


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## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2015)

Did you read the piece? Terfs werent mentioned anywhere in the piece except here: 



> Anyone’s personal life is their business and in no way am I or any other trans person trying to talk terf lesbians into being into trans women but where it is completely open for critique is within women’s spaces and porn casting policy. If we are going to treat porn like a real multi-billion dollar industry we need to hold it up to the same standards as any other business.



Looks to me like shes using terf here to mean anyone who's a lesbian in its accepted meaning because wtf would an ideological terf, who hold to a set of beliefs that say porn is wrong be doing in the sex industry?


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## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2015)

.


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## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2015)

Judeinlondon going on about why so many donors to ukip are jewish,had a screen grab but cant upload it.


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## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Judeinlondon going on about why so many donors to ukip are jewish,had a screen grab but cant upload it.



Via _you_:


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## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks,couldnt upload it.


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## Idris2002 (Feb 24, 2015)




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## toggle (Feb 24, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Did you read the piece? Terfs werent mentioned anywhere in the piece except here:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks to me like shes using terf here to mean anyone who's a lesbian in its accepted meaning because wtf would an ideological terf, who hold to a set of beliefs that say porn is wrong be doing in the sex industry?



please miss, do I have to try and make sense of another nonsensical set of extreme ideaologies? I try to limit myself to one set per week. All i'd like to add is that i think ti's useful in seeking understanding that we're looking to try and present the arguments behind the screaming of the opposing ideaologies. and the bits where eithe side have a point. and see where those stand up to challenge and where they don't.

but i also wanted to add, there seems to be a divide between those transwomen who accept that the expereinces of those who were raised to be women can be different from those who were raised to be men and there's the side that don't. One side talks with women, listens and joins in discussion. They accept expereinces of those living as women can be different to those they had before transition and want to explore those differences and understand.

Then there's the side that carries over the privilage they learnt while being raised to be men. A need to dominate discussion, to make it about their needs, not the needs of all who identify as women. but there's also an entitlement to sex in some. a massive sulkathon that the one group that refused to have sex wth them while they presented as male to the world might include women who still don't want to have sex with them. A woman not wanting to have sex with them is about a massive conspracy among all lesbians (in the sense of women who are attracted to women, not the political bullshit) to deny transwomen's right to identify as women. i can recognise transwomen as women without wanting to have sex with them in the same way i dont want to have sex with a great many men and that dosent stop me recognising them as men. Nope, it really dosen't, despite the attitude some men have. it's that thing that is the issue, a refusal to fuck them being taken as a threat to their identity is something that many women precieve as male behavior. holding onto that attitude does not help the trans* cause to be accepted by women as women. brennan's lot don't help to reduce the amount of amunition or paranoia, but it is all about them and rights, not the choices of individual women to fuck or not fuck whomever they damn well want to.

Obviously that's a simplification (I hope not an offensive one) of a wide range of views, but ti's I think a realistic one of the more apparent voices. and understanding and listening to expeeinces has to be a two way street. 

eta: feminism must include transwomen and listen to how we can help encourage acceptance of transpeople and transrights. but that must be as part of the fight for equality and rights of all women and cannot include anyone, of any gender, orientation or identity who cannot treat others with sexual respect.


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## smokedout (Feb 24, 2015)

toggle said:


> A woman not wanting to have sex with them is about a massive conspracy among all lesbians (in the sense of women who are attracted to women, not the political bullshit) to deny transwomen's right to identify as women. i can recognise transwomen as women without wanting to have sex with them in the same way i dont want to have sex with a great many men and that dosent stop me recognising them as men. Nope, it really dosen't, despite the attitude some men have. it's that thing that is the issue, a refusal to fuck them being taken as a threat to their identity is something that many women precieve as male behavior. holding onto that attitude does not help the trans* cause to be accepted by women as women. brennan's lot don't help to reduce the amount of amunition or paranoia, but it is all about them and rights, not the choices of individual women to fuck or not fuck whomever they damn well want to.



is that what they are saying, or is it more this:



> If a small group wanted to talk about how ableism affected cultural notions of beauty and/or desirability, would feminist circles tolerate TERFs going on a yearlong campaign, claiming that those who aren’t able-bodied want to force lesbians to have sex with them?
> 
> In a culture that devalues and oppresses trans people, why is it not appropriate to discuss how these cisnormative beauty standards impact notions of desirability, how these biases relate to the fetishization of trans people and how all of this impacts the perception of trans people in queer spaces? Why is it not appropriate for transwomen to ask themselves how this affects the way we see ourselves and/or how this affects the way others view us?


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## Fozzie Bear (Feb 24, 2015)

Grace Dent in farcical "me me me" moment:



> *If teenage girls want to join Isis in the face of all its atrocities, then they should leave and never return*
> [...]Of course, there’s a strong case to be made that fleeing abroad in search of Isis is simply a severe case of teen rebellion. Much, in fact, like the time, aged 15, when I pierced my nose and dyed my hair a sort of toxic cyan shade, imagining myself to look like a sexy mermaid, like Kate from The B52s, but instead resembling the Cookie Monster. I was a complete tit for almost all of the 1980s. The Nineties and Noughties were only marginally better. But still, I am lost for ideas on how we greet young teen rebels who hope to return here after mixing with Isis.[...]


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...y-should-leave-and-never-return-10065516.html


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 24, 2015)

that's really terrible


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 24, 2015)

that stavvers really is a vile person.



I don;t understand why her experience of sexual violence trumps everyone else's.


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 24, 2015)

this is the article that provoked that outburst:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...d-it-was-female-only-spaces-helped-me-recover


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## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2015)

Because its all about her.

You should be able to oppose terf bullshit and oppose what some - SOME - of the transactivists are coming out with. Its common sense surely? I dont why the existence of lesbian nationalists who think dildos are a conspiracy should mean you somehow ignore disgusting misogyny or threatening to kill someone because they signed a fucking letter you disagree with. Its like being opposed to anti semitism doesnt mean you tolerate scumbags waving israeli flags about.


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## el-ahrairah (Feb 24, 2015)

it was just so amazingly hurtful.  i'm almost in awe of it.  i'm kind of a fan of being needlessly rude to liberals on the internet, but even i stopped and picked up my jaw.


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## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2015)

Cathy brennan speaks for a small coterie of mostly american ultranationalists who among other things believe that:

All trans women are rapists
There is an anti lesbian conspiracy
All sex with a man is rape but straight and bi women enjoy this, so are brainwashed and lesbians nees to forget about them
Lesbians cannot rape other lesbians and no domestic violence ever takes place among women
Men cannot be raped
Dildos are an anti gay conspiracy because they are often penis shaped and are aimed at drawing lesbians back to shagging men again
Oh and: Valerie Solanas was a feminist hero

NOBODY takes these views seriously beyond a tiny, tiny minority of people. Yes, they should be opposed and id say theres a case based on no platforming cathy brennan if she came to speak at an event, based on the nature of some of her fans. Do these views have any chance of gaining any ground in the real world? Doea lesbian nationalism/terfism have any chance of implementing its agenda anywhere?

But someone like sarah brown (a lib dem politico btw) or some of the others who have got into influential positions and are far far more potentially damaging and dangerous than the terfs who are utterly marginal. I recommend people read that post hewitt wrote and some of the trans women on twitter who are speaking up to realise that it a widespread problem and not just a few people lashing out at brennan and her ilk.

Yes transphobes sometimes use elements of terf ideology as a justification for their views but the majority of anti trans violence is committed by men who have even less sympathy with terfs than anyone commenting here.


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## ManchesterBeth (Feb 24, 2015)

killer b said:


> 'tone policing'?



There's also exclusionary policing in that academic language excludes non-white, disabled, non-cis male people. Nevermind the fact that I'm not white and disabled... Irony of ironies, I was called out by a white person. Insidious really, I shouldn't have to justify my experiences to anyone merely to prove 'how oppressed I am' or 'ZOMG I'm more oppressed than you.' I think there's quite a bit of racism in this liberal intersectional movement TBF.

Would have happily throttled that cunt if they tried pulling a similar manoeuvre on me irl.


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## ManchesterBeth (Feb 24, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> London Black Revolutionaries don't half come out with some rubbish on their Facebook page.



I got banned for arguing that black and brown people are capable of perpetuating racist *discourses*.  

I sometimes want to create a group called intelligent London MENA revolutionaries and engage in sectarian squabbles and polemics with LBR. Infuriating people really. I genuinely don't want these lapdogs of imperialist and protestant metaphysical morality speaking up for me.


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## ManchesterBeth (Feb 24, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> J Ed SpineyNorman weepiper et al you know you were talking about the far right using this. Watching this itv doc now. Have a look at this - ex NF fash using the language ic intersectionality and identity politics to gain their organisation charitable status.
> 
> I recommend anyone with an interest in the far right, jihadism, anti fascism etc to watch this i only just started and its really good.
> https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/exposure-charities-behaving-badly



Cheers Froggy, is it still available?


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## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2015)

dialectician said:


> Cheers Froggy, is it still available?


Was last time i looked. Think its on youtube to


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## toggle (Feb 24, 2015)

smokedout said:


> is that what they are saying, or is it more this:



no. that's an abstract discussion about how trans* bodies are either erased or fetishised and how that affects transpeople. it's primarily aimed at supporting transpeople. it isn't discussing who will or won't have sex with them, with associated entitlement and sulking. if they are being attacked for wanting to have a discussion of the former in a way that dosen't include the latter, then that is the kind of discussion that we all need to support and ask whether we are part of perpetuating the nasty. the latter does happen and needs to fuck right off.


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## toggle (Feb 24, 2015)

dialectician said:


> I got banned for arguing that black and brown people are capable of perpetuating racist *discourses*.



oh gawds, oh my fucking gawds. 


it's painful watching groups become a parody of themselves


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## smokedout (Feb 25, 2015)

toggle said:


> no. that's an abstract discussion about how trans* bodies are either erased or fetishised and how that affects transpeople. it's primarily aimed at supporting transpeople. it isn't discussing who will or won't have sex with them, with associated entitlement and sulking. if they are being attacked for wanting to have a discussion of the former in a way that dosen't include the latter, then that is the kind of discussion that we all need to support and ask whether we are part of perpetuating the nasty. the latter does happen and needs to fuck right off.



would you call it sulking or entitlement if it was disabled people or fat people moaning that people wouldnt have sex with them?  I couldn't actually find much evidence of people doing this (not saying it isnt there), I don't think the piece by the porn actor froggy posted was actually doing that and I haven't really seen this as an organised demand by any trans-activists beyond trying to open up a discussion about how trans* bodies are either erased or fetishised.  and having read some stuff today I can see why that is a big issue, the ability to form intimate and sexual relationships is a big part of what most people consider a normal and happy life, it seems that trans-people trying to have a discussion about this has led to an organised campaign by some radfems based on trying to prove that transwomen were trying to guilt trip lesbians into having sex with them.  I cringe at some of the stuff on both sides of this row,  but I do think the terf campaign has had some success in changing the discourse and inserting a lot of these ideas and they have seeped into mainstream thought, and that has been evidenced more than once on this thread.


----------



## toggle (Feb 25, 2015)

yes. there is no right to sex, no right to undermine the body autonomy of other people.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 25, 2015)

who is demanding that?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 25, 2015)

big difference by the way between demanding people have sex with you or moaning about no-one wanting sex with you and questioning whether that is because of social dynamics and prejudices or whether trans-people people are just naturally undesirable


----------



## smokedout (Feb 25, 2015)

dp


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Feb 25, 2015)

toggle said:


> oh gawds, oh my fucking gawds.
> 
> 
> it's painful watching groups become a parody of themselves



They'd be at home on anti-imperialism.com

Grim really...

The thing is that they don't have a coherent line on much. You can't accuse them of following Lin Biao's farcical and outdated three worlds theory (like mtws do) because you don't see any sort of economic theory from them. Pressure group, more like. And one that is starting to become risible, at that...


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 25, 2015)

It wasn't his theory, it was Mao and Deng's (more the latter). I'm not up on the differences between groups in that internet milieu, (and well, who really gives a fuck?) but MTWs see the later Three Worlds as a reactionary nationalistic error. 

They instead build on the mid-1960s Lin Biao-ised appraisal of the doctrine of PPW and its global significance (_Long Live the Victory of People's War_) at a time when China promoted an intensification and linking up of national liberation struggles as a response to Soviet revisionism (1965-71), and the prospects of a 'flying leap' in the economy and industrial development back home (and with it a coming cultural revolution to sweep the path for a further advance towards communism).

The above doesn't really matter anyway, and unlike Proletarian Democracy they're loonspuds with no real influence whatsoever.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Feb 25, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> It wasn't his theory, it was Mao and Deng's (more the latter). I'm not up on the differences between groups in that internet milieu, (and well, who really gives a fuck?) but MTWs see the later Three Worlds as a reactionary nationalistic error.
> 
> They instead build on the mid-1960s Lin Biao-ised appraisal of the doctrine of PPW and its global significance (_Long Live the Victory of People's War_) at a time when China promoted an intensification and linking up of national liberation struggles as a response to Soviet revisionism (1965-71), and the prospects of a 'flying leap' in the economy and industrial development back home (and with it a coming cultural revolution to sweep the path for a further advance towards communism).
> 
> The above doesn't really matter anyway, and unlike Proletarian Democracy they're loonspuds with no real influence whatsoever.



Cheers mate, I was under the impression that it was the other way around, in that Maoists of the RIM variety (1993 long live Marxism-Leninism-Maoism) rejected the later three worlds theory. I can swear that I read a Maoist from the PC-RCP (I think?) harping on about how three worlds was a Lin Biao aberration etc etc etc.

Then again MLMs of the 1993 variety aren't that far removed from the MTW understanding of the labour aristocracy, notwithstanding their significant disagreements.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 25, 2015)

The labour aristocracy stuff is there with the global People's War concept put forward by Lin Biao (they're both central to MTWs politics, or at least one part of them).  From what I understand of it, they did reject the Three Worlds Theory, those that became the MTW loons of today.  It was never Lin Biao's (he was dead and the tendency he represented was defeated as 'ultra-left' by then).  A Maoist doesn't know his/her 'Maoism,' lol.

To make it easy peasy without getting into the sectarian minutiae of crackpot American Maoism I have only a limited knowledge of anyway, here's one of their older videos (before forming LLCO) I posted here ages ago.  It's basically their version of Lin Biao's work (which reflected the Chinese alternative for world revolution in the mid-1960s via national liberation struggles, pressuring a revisionist Soviet Union to come back to the cause of socialism and fighting the western imperialists)  but adapted to include their 'global class analysis' of no longer proletarian/first-world labour aristocrat shite.  From about three minutes in it appears with 'exploiter populations.'



The 'flying leap' talk (reviving a Great Leap politics of sorts in rural areas which the GPCR had opened up for the true believers) lasted briefly from the late 1960s but ended with Lin's death. It wasn't that popular with other military leaders anyway.

All of this is just middle class weirdos with expensive educations and too much time on their hands.  Like I said, PD is our best hope for a better world.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 25, 2015)

Maoism is still a real thing in a few bits of the third world. "Maoist Third Worldism" is a few American fantasists, the political equivalent of a World of Warcraft Guild.

The Theory of the Three Worlds was put forward by Mao amongst others. Most Maoists worldwide went along with at the time. However most of what's left of Maoism now rejects it, either rejecting it from the start or coming to their senses later. However, they generally try to hide or simply refuse to believe that Mao backed the 3W Theory.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks.


----------



## toggle (Feb 25, 2015)

smokedout said:


> big difference by the way between demanding people have sex with you or moaning about no-one wanting sex with you and questioning whether that is because of social dynamics and prejudices or whether trans-people people are just naturally undesirable



I think i've made it clear that I know there's a difference.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Feb 25, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> The labour aristocracy stuff is there with the global People's War concept put forward by Lin Biao (they're both central to MTWs politics, or at least one part of them).  From what I understand of it, they did reject the Three Worlds Theory, those that became the MTW loons of today.  It was never Lin Biao's (he was dead and the tendency he represented was defeated as 'ultra-left' by then).  A Maoist doesn't know his/her 'Maoism,' lol.
> 
> To make it easy peasy without getting into the sectarian minutiae of crackpot American Maoism I have only a limited knowledge of anyway, here's one of their older videos (before forming LLCO) I posted here ages ago.  It's basically their version of Lin Biao's work (which reflected the Chinese alternative for world revolution in the mid-1960s via national liberation struggles, pressuring a revisionist Soviet Union to come back to the cause of socialism and fighting the western imperialists)  but adapted to include their 'global class analysis' of no longer proletarian/first-world labour aristocrat shite.  From about three minutes in it appears with 'exploiter populations.'
> 
> ...




Cheers again. Do you have a list of books/reading material going into detail about the minutiae of all this stuff, western Maoism in particular?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 25, 2015)

toggle said:


> I think i've made it clear that I know there's a difference.



for sure I'm not saying you don't, I just struggled to find any evidence of a coherent demand from trans-activists that lesbians should sleep with them that goes beyond questioning whether wider transphobia and idealised versions of desirability lie behind what many trans people have observed as a facet of their lives.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, or maybe this is a slur that has been inserted by the terf movement, because like the pretending to be transsexual to be rapists thing, everyone says it happening, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence that it actually is on any significant level, or even at all.


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## rekil (Feb 26, 2015)

The NS is a little bit wealdstone raider.


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## Louis MacNeice (Feb 26, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Maoism is still a real thing in a few bits of the third world.


 
More or less of a real thing than Trotskyism?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> The NS is a little bit wealdstone raider.
> 
> View attachment 68121



they don't half comission some shit covers


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## toggle (Feb 26, 2015)

smokedout said:


> for sure I'm not saying you don't, I just struggled to find any evidence of a coherent demand from trans-activists that lesbians should sleep with them that goes beyond questioning whether wider transphobia and idealised versions of desirability lie behind what many trans people have observed as a facet of their lives.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, or maybe this is a slur that has been inserted by the terf movement, because like the pretending to be transsexual to be rapists thing, everyone says it happening, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence that it actually is on any significant level, or even at all.



thanks for educating me about how i'm making it all up and how i'm actually just spreading the terf agenda.


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## frogwoman (Feb 26, 2015)

I dont think im out of order to be fucking furious at things like this (assuming this is genuine, which it may not be)







Its not spreading a terf agenda to acknowledge that this can and is used in reactionary ways any more than pointing out liberals trying to 'defend' immigrants by banging on about british people on benefits are all lazy means your a bnp/ukip supporter. If someone can just declare themselves female and be treated as such where does that leave womens struggles for equality (including trans women who have medically/socially transitioned?)


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## Nigel Irritable (Feb 26, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> More or less of a real thing than Trotskyism?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Depends where. There are places where Trotskyists are a minor but real force in "mainstream" politics. There are places where Maoists are a minor but real force, and there's even one country where they are major players.

Are you still cheerleading for the IWCA? How's the British Athletics Track To Socialism going?


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2015)

Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?  

https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c


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## Nigel Irritable (Feb 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?
> 
> https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c



Truly great work.


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## rekil (Feb 26, 2015)

We can always count on Tony Parsons.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?
> 
> https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c


Timely; _the list _was looking like it was due an updating


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## Nigel Irritable (Feb 26, 2015)

joolsd still churning them out. Dear oh dear Ronnie O'Sullivan


----------



## rekil (Feb 26, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> Timely; _the list _was looking like it was due an updating



Room for _plenty more_ inside.



Tim Cahill has a bit of a nerve, and conferring with Piers Morgan of all people. I wonder how many of these people are engaged in creative tax minimisation strategies and outright fraud. (#makeuthink)


----------



## smokedout (Feb 26, 2015)

toggle said:


> thanks for educating me about how i'm making it all up and how i'm actually just spreading the terf agenda.



I just thought you might have some evidence to back up that claim, which I'd also believed and thought was well dodge, but then when I looked at what was actually being said by trans-activists it wasn't really what I had thought  and I also thought they ha, if not a point, then at least a valid reason to dicuss things like the cotton ceiling and shouldnt be attacked for it.  But you might have seen some different stuff, thats why I asked.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 26, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Its not spreading a terf agenda to acknowledge that this can and is used in reactionary ways any more than pointing out liberals trying to 'defend' immigrants by banging on about british people on benefits are all lazy means your a bnp/ukip supporter. If someone can just declare themselves female and be treated as such where does that leave womens struggles for equality (including trans women who have medically/socially transitioned?)



I think it could be used in a reactionary way, but I don't think it's very likely it will be.  It's a bit eccentric, and I don't see many men declaring themselves women in order to score some points, more likely this is someone who is unsure, or is yet to transition, or even someone who is in the process of medical treatment who presents as male (or even someone genetically female who presents as male - these kids are crazy)

I think it's very difficult to challenge without getting in a mess yourself, would it have been okay to say that if she was wearing a dress and heels, at what point does someone else get to decide someone's gender and what criteria should they use.  I see your point, but I think this needs to be challenged with care, or perhaps not at all unless it becomes more widespread and starts to look like men (who believe themselves to be men) are actively using this technique to undermine women


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## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2015)

smokedout said:


> I think it could be used in a reactionary way, but I don't think it's very likely it will be.  It's a bit eccentric, and I don't see many men declaring themselves women in order to score some points, more likely this is someone who is unsure, or is yet to transition, or even someone who is in the process of medical treatment who presents as male (or even someone genetically female who presents as male - these kids are crazy)
> 
> I think it's very difficult to challenge without getting in a mess yourself, would it have been okay to say that if she was wearing a dress and heels, at what point does someone else get to decide someone's gender and what criteria should they use.  I see your point, but I think this needs to be challenged with care, or perhaps not at all unless it becomes more widespread and starts to look like men (who believe themselves to be men) are actively using this technique to undermine women


It is a bit mind-stretching to consider someone amab who presents as male but identifies as female. I can see how that can be and I welcome it really, but can also see how that may seem like people who pass as male seeking to occupy female territory. Obviously even by voicing that misgiving I am wounding those people. But I think their colonisation of female territory and erasure of biology also wounds people who have struggled with biologically female problems. Just my five cents.
Plus this, which is the first thing that came up when I googled cotton ceiling. YMMV.
https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/


----------



## smokedout (Feb 26, 2015)

from a blogger who says elsewhere that



> the patriarchal intent and effect of transgender, which i believe ultimately was to increase womens vulnerability to rape as well as erasing the political implications of men raping women across time and place


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## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2015)

smokedout said:


> from a blogger who says elsewhere that


Fair enough, we can discount it then along with the redacted lesbian who is surely a figment of hir imagination.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 27, 2015)

dialectician said:


> Cheers again. Do you have a list of books/reading material going into detail about the minutiae of all this stuff, western Maoism in particular?



Not in _detail_ (the differences), my knowledge of western politics only really skims the surface, and as you said before, there are confusing sectarian disagreements internationally on what 'Maoism' actually is (the legitimacy of M-L-M with RIM following on from the Shining Path?) and what is meant by the term Lin Biaoism related to the GPCR. This is serious business to people actually living with guns hung over their shoulders, not just Americans with blogs, but it's irrelevant to me (I would say that though, being a white first-world labour aristocrat). However...

Maoism in the Developed World - Robert J. Alexander (covers many groups and parties, not sure how thorough or accurate, got it to upload somewhere)
Revolution in the Air: Sixties Radicals Turn to Lenin, Mao and Che - Max Elbaum (good but not much depth, and can upload it)
Heavy Radicals: The FBI's Secret War on America's Maoists - The Revolutionary Union/Revolutionary Communist Party, 1968-1980 - Aaron J. Leonard and Conor A. Gallagher (new out, haven't read it)
The East Is Black: Cold War China in the Black Radical Imagination - Robeson Taj Frazier (likewise new out and haven't read it)

Related to the above, and also see here and  here.  I would be more sympathetic to those that realised and dealt with their prejudicial behaviour with its ignorance and stereotyping and learned from the environments they placed themselves into than becoming frustrated because the backward proles were doing politics wrong, or weren't interested in it on their terms/experience.

You could look at the Encyclopedia of anti-Revisionism On-Line at MIA.  And for Maoism Third-Worldism, just read their own sites (LLCO and RAIM which you mentioned before) for their own positions.

Maybe butchersapron has recommendations on US and European movements in the 1960s/70s.


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## Lurdan (Feb 27, 2015)

A Belden Fields book 'Trotskyism and Maoism: Theory and Practice in France and the United States' is quite interesting imo. The chapters on Maoism used to be on-line and are still at archive.org.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 27, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Depends where. There are places where Trotskyists are a minor but real force in "mainstream" politics. There are places where Maoists are a minor but real force, and there's even one country where they are major players.
> 
> Are you still cheerleading for the IWCA? How's the British Athletics Track To Socialism going?





Nigel where's your sense of humour; surely you must see the funny side of a Trotskyist having a pop at the real world impact of Maoism. 

If you want to talk about my take on the IWCA then this is the place to go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. I like the BRS jibe.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 27, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Nigel where's your sense of humour; surely you must see the funny side of a Trotskyist having a pop at the real world impact of Maoism.



Noting that Maoism used to be a significant movement, but now at least outside parts of South Asia, effectively no longer exists should t be particularly controversial regardless of who is talking.




			
				Louis MacNeice said:
			
		

> If you want to talk about my take on the IWCA then this is the place to go.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice
> 
> p.s. I like the BRS jibe.



Your explanation of the IWCAs preference for community over workplace seems to me to veer towards making a virtue of a necessity. Which is to say, it was perfectly rational for the IWCA to concentrate their small resources in one field and that doesn't really need a somewhat sweeping theoretical justification. 

More generally, I note that you reach the conclusion that something like the IWCA will have to be tried again, without attempting a serious explanation of its failure the first time around.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 27, 2015)

Sorry to see your sense of humour hasn't returned; if you want to talk about the IWCA I think the other thread would be more appropriate.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 27, 2015)

copliker said:


> Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?
> 
> https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c



I can't work out how to quote from that Storify thing, but someone called Beverly Knight says:

@*kinaton* I remember the army going in to quell an incident in Wolves. I was little but can still recall it. They didn't kick off again..xxxx

By "Wolves" I assume she means Wolverhampton. Any idea what "incident" she's talking about? I have no reason for asking other than idle curiousity mind.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2015)

I never open storify things; life sapping slide shows.


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I can't work out how to quote from that Storify thing, but someone called Beverly Knight says:
> 
> @*kinaton* I remember the army going in to quell an incident in Wolves. I was little but can still recall it. They didn't kick off again..xxxx
> 
> By "Wolves" I assume she means Wolverhampton. Any idea what "incident" she's talking about? I have no reason for asking other than idle curiousity mind.


I was wondering about that one as well. I don't know.


----------



## yield (Feb 27, 2015)

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1835/jun/01/disturbance-at-wolverhampton


> Notwithstanding there appeared to have been very little confusion or disorder, the military were called in, and the Riot Act having been read, they charged the people. The result was, that one man received a shot, in consequence of which his leg had to be amputated; another person was wounded, and would probably be lamed for life; and a third received a bullet, which had been attended with serious consequences—so much so, that the individual's life was endangered. He understood the military went about the town singly and in pairs, firing through doors, so that it was extraordinary many lives had not been lost.


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## rekil (Feb 27, 2015)

Even though Ms Knight was born 138 years later, that must be it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 27, 2015)

yield said:


> http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1835/jun/01/disturbance-at-wolverhampton



Woah. Shit just got real.

I doubt very much if that's the one she's thinking of. Or could it be?


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 28, 2015)

dialectician.

Here and here.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 1, 2015)

Penny on the plight of _creatives_, CEOs and consultants of london


----------



## J Ed (Mar 1, 2015)

First they came for the CEOs...


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 1, 2015)

the squeezed middle


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> First they came for the CEOs...



Has she anything to say about the criminal conduct of HSBC, then?


----------



## Jezebelle (Mar 1, 2015)

toggle said:


> it is. but there's an unfortunate number of people who consider that anyhting offered to any group that is compensatory for any form of disability/problem/illness/need/etc is a direct attack on everyone else. the sort who would complain that someone needing time off if they had periods that were cripplingly painful should allow them days off cause they suffer by not being allowed to go play golf. the sort with the complete lack of empathy that won't allow them to comprehend that someone would probably rather be at work feeling fine than at home feeling like their insides were being torn out


All true except when it comes to periods, the need to allow time off isn't just about any extreme pain that might be present. During menstruation, progesterone and estrogen are at their lowest levels. This affects our ability to physically 'get things done'. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard women say they don't feel like doing anything during their period. They almost always sound surprised when I tell them it's meant to be a time of rest. Problem is, in this current climate in which we're increasingly expected to be 'superhuman', and anything that sounds like gender essentialism is dismissed, we're moving even further away from this type of understanding.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2015)

Jezebelle said:


> All true except when it comes to periods, the need to allow time off isn't just about any extreme pain that might be present. During menstruation, progesterone and estrogen are at their lowest levels. This affects our ability to physically 'get things done'. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard women say they don't feel like doing anything during their period. They almost always sound surprised when I tell them it's meant to be a time of rest. Problem is, in this current climate in which we're increasingly expected to be 'superhuman', and anything that sounds like gender essentialism is dismissed, we're moving even further away from this type of understanding.


That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation though - not all women experience periods in the same way, some sail through, some suffer excruciating agony, some are in-between, and each period can be different for the same woman in any case, not to mention that the ability 'to get things done' as you put it being affected (or not) by hormone levels. What about women who don't experience periods for a variety of reasons?

I don't feel like going to work for a whole number of reasons on any given day - they're generally not related to my gender or my biology.


----------



## Jezebelle (Mar 1, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation though - not all women experience periods in the same way, some sail through, some suffer excruciating agony, some are in-between, and each period can be different for the same woman in any case, not to mention that the ability 'to get things done' as you put it being affected (or not) by hormone levels. What about women who don't experience periods for a variety of reasons?
> 
> I don't feel like going to work for a whole number of reasons on any given day - they're generally not related to my gender or my biology.


I'm not sure which part is "a bit of a sweeping generalisation"? In her book 'Rethinking Menstruation', Dena Taylor documents a range of women's responses to periods. Almost all of them said they wanted to be left alone, and many spoke of wanting to curl up in bed and relax, sleep by themselves and avoid going out. Even if you think those findings are wrong, or not important since all women are different, does that mean we're not allowed to generalise, or have any kind of common experience based on either biology or changing gender expectations? Because that just sounds like anti-feminism to me.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2015)

Jezebelle said:


> I'm not sure which part is "a bit of a sweeping generalisation"? In her book 'Rethinking Menstruation', Dena Taylor documents a range of women's responses to periods. Almost all of them said they wanted to be left alone, and many spoke of wanting to curl up in bed and relax, sleep by themselves and avoid going out. Even if you think those findings are wrong, or not important since all women are different, does that mean we're not allowed to generalise, or have any kind of common experience based on either biology or changing gender expectations? Because that just sounds like anti-feminism to me.


Are you calling me an anti feminist because I posted an opinion contrary to your own? 
Common experience based on biology is that most women have periods. A sweeping generalisation would be that women don't want to do anything during their period.

Do you see the difference between the two?

And going straight to 'that's anti feminist' is what many of the very commentariat this thread is about do.


----------



## Jezebelle (Mar 1, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Are you calling me an anti feminist because I posted an opinion contrary to your own?
> Common experience based on biology is that most women have periods. A sweeping generalisation would be that women don't want to do anything during their period.
> 
> Do you see the difference between the two?
> ...


No, I'm clearly not saying what you wrote sounded anti-feminist simply because you disagreed with me. Be useful if you could tell me how it supports your perspective on feminism instead of just attacking me. Also, if I'm being accused of 'not towing the line' expected on this thread, then afraid I'm still confused. Much of it seems to be devoted to discussions on Laurie Penny and yet, she says stuff like, 'what about women who don't have children', like her? and 'what about women who are pansexual', like her? She doesn't appear to like generalisations either.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2015)

Jezebelle said:


> No, I'm clearly not saying what you wrote sounded anti-feminist simply because you disagreed with me. Be useful if you could tell me how it supports your perspective on feminism instead of just attacking me. Also, if I'm being accused of 'not towing the line' expected on this thread, then afraid I'm still confused. Much of it seems to be devoted to discussions on Laurie Penny and yet, she says stuff like, 'what about women who don't have children', like her? and 'what about women who are pansexual', like her? She doesn't appear to like generalisations either.


Then please explain how my original post was anti feminist.

And for the record please point out where I have attacked you.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 2, 2015)

Jezebelle said:


> Much of it seems to be devoted to discussions on Laurie Penny and yet, she says stuff like, 'what about women who don't have children', like her? and 'what about women who are pansexual', like her? She doesn't appear to like generalisations either.



Quick question, have you read far back through the thread. She's not averse to generalisations when it suits (such as claiming that anyone criticising her is a misogynist, for example). It would be fair to say that she's selective about what she considers worth covering and ignores things that many journalists would consider well worth checking out. And, while we're on the subject, her use of repeated hyperbole and her question able usage and interpretation  of facts only does a disservice to whatever she's covering. 

Also, you reference her referral to people like her. Well, there seems to be very little that in some way isn't about her, judging by her output. Her constantly injecting herself into each and every story, often at the expense of the subject matter and people involved, doesn't do her any favours either. Come to that, I'm also no fan of her lumping any and all critics in with trolls, misogyny and harassment while being happy to smear people when it suits her and, in the case of one story in particular, I consider her professional ethics more than slightly suspect. When a person threatens to commit suicide and professional bodies advise you not to run that particular story out of concern for that person's well-being and safety, then you shouldn't run that story. She did run it even after having received professional advice not to.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 2, 2015)

Send the Army in; because _of course_ treating the country like a restive occupied territory is a sure-fire way of calming the situation.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 2, 2015)

LOL, stop trying to make these terrorists out to be motivated by sexual frustrations.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ised-or-is-he-just-a-sick-loser-10081044.html


----------



## J Ed (Mar 2, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> LOL, stop trying to make these terrorists out to be motivated by sexual frustrations.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ised-or-is-he-just-a-sick-loser-10081044.html



Pathetic, I know that this neocon moron is paid to grasp at straws to justify an aggressive foreign policy but really? Introversion = ISIS? Jesus.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 2, 2015)

> As with so many middle class children who turn to revolution in all its various forms, the promise of a violent overthrow of civilised society may simply be another way of making up for slights suffered in the school playground.



Channelling Scott Walker there.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 2, 2015)

Emwazi was engaged twice IIRC. Bloodworth couldn't even do basic research.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 2, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Emwazi was engaged twice IIRC. Bloodworth couldn't even do basic research.



Makes a change from plagiarising other people's.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 2, 2015)

Bloodworth is such a shitty neocon hack.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 4, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> LOL, stop trying to make these terrorists out to be motivated by sexual frustrations.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ised-or-is-he-just-a-sick-loser-10081044.html



Innit.  I've seen Martin Amis and Christopher Hitchens pushing this line too.  This idea that being an adult male virgin is a weird, perverse condition and a recipe for unbearable sexual tension and psychosis.  Says more about them and their 1960s background than anything else.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 4, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Innit.  I've seen Martin Amis and Christopher Hitchens pushing this line too.  This idea that being an adult male virgin is a weird, perverse condition and a recipe for unbearable sexual tension and psychosis.  Says more about them and their 1960s background than anything else.



It would be absurd to ascribe the whole phenomenon of jihadism to sexual frustration, but I don't believe it's an irrelevant point either. Think of Sean South, for example - before he was killed in the first action of the IRA's border campaign in 1956, he was known for going round the cinemas of Limerick, hunting for teenagers who might be engaged in acts of sin (mild kissing, that sort of thing) and forcibly separating them. 

Even by the standards of 1950s Ireland, that was an eccentric way to behave, and I don't think it's unrelated to the rest of of South's politics, be it his physical-force nationalism or his anti-semitism.


----------



## rekil (Mar 4, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> it was just so amazingly hurtful.  i'm almost in awe of it.  i'm kind of a fan of being needlessly rude to liberals on the internet, but even i stopped and picked up my jaw.


 

What Lewis neglects to mention is that the person responsible for that disgusting comment has also been a NS contributor.  Makes you think.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 4, 2015)

it does, doesn't it.  _cui bono_, as some clever people might say.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 4, 2015)

The whole thing makes me feel a bit sick tbh. Although i do have to laugh at the new statesman being nicknamed 'the new terfman'


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 4, 2015)

Maybe the fact she's not been invited back since 2012 explains it's sudden transformation.


----------



## rekil (Mar 4, 2015)

Speaking of the NS, they've hauled Hari on board. It's like a mad liberal journo version of the Jolie shambles Unbroken. He's making stuff up already according to Jeremy Duns and others.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 4, 2015)

Getting the old oxbridge gang back together for one last job.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 4, 2015)

please tell me its not for a new fiction feature


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> please tell me its not for a new fiction feature



With this lot what's the difference?


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Getting the old oxbridge gang back together for *one last job*.



If only...


----------



## The Pale King (Mar 4, 2015)

copliker said:


> Speaking of the NS, they've hauled Hari on board. It's like a mad liberal journo version of the Jolie shambles Unbroken. He's making stuff up already according to Jeremy Duns and others.



I have noticed articles by Simon Heffer appearing recently on their website as well : http://www.newstatesman.com/writers/simon_heffer 

Also noticed that the Guardian have hired Matthew D'Arsehola for a nice Tory insider perspective. I thought these were meant to be left wing journals? I guess that's what they mean when they talk about 'diversity'...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 4, 2015)

i've been trying to think of an ocean's 11 or italian job pun since butchers posted but i'm fucked if i'm clever enough.  someone here must be though...


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 4, 2015)

copliker said:


> He's making stuff up already according to Jeremy Duns and others.



*Dr. Evil:* The details of my life are quite inconsequential.
*Therapist (Carrie Fisher):* Oh no, please, please, let's hear about your childhood.
*Dr Evil:* Very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink, he would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Some times he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy, the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical, summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds, pretty standard really. At the age of 12 I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen, a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum, it's breathtaking, I suggest you try it.
*Therapist:* You know, we have to stop.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 4, 2015)

copliker said:


> View attachment 68371
> 
> What Lewis neglects to mention is that the person responsible for that disgusting comment has also been a NS contributor.  Makes you think.



Rape crisis south London suggested that said contributor might want to apologise for her comment... with predictable results

Weaponizing your identity seems awfully stressful.


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2015)

Journalism in 2015. Mr.Albertoni being a tad unrealistic I feel.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 5, 2015)

Remember, Mr Albertoni, she's not going out and getting arrested just for journalism.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 5, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Remember, Mr Albertoni, she's not going out and getting arrested just for journalism.


I've not been keeping up with this thread lately but an admin of the Anarchist Memes page on Facebook just wrote a long heartfelt post about "thin supremacy". Whats the bloody world coming too?


----------



## agricola (Mar 5, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i've been trying to think of an ocean's 11 or italian job pun since butchers posted but i'm fucked if i'm clever enough.  someone here must be though...



why not a ladykillers one?


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i've been trying to think of an ocean's 11 or italian job pun since butchers posted but i'm fucked if i'm clever enough.  someone here must be though...


Something something that band playing self preservation society on your face forever.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 5, 2015)

Actually it gets better. 





> Anarchist MemesEmilio Greycloud Ramos has been banned for fat-antagonism
> -Leto-
> Like · Reply · 5 · 10 hrs · Edited
> 
> ...


----------



## rekil (Mar 5, 2015)

OJ chuffed to be supporting Paloma Faith.



> When we heard that author and left-wing political commentator Owen Jones will be opening for Paloma Faith at a couple of upcoming shows, the news came as a definite bolt from the blue – *or should that be red?*





> What subjects will you cover onstage?
> 
> Stuff outside the mainstream news agenda – which tends to blame immigrants, unemployed people, public sector workers – rather than scrutinising the people at the top. For me, it’s about the politics of hope.


----------



## seventh bullet (Mar 5, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> Actually it gets better.



Posh people squabbling?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 5, 2015)

fat-antagonism?  is that being fat and antagonising, or antagonising fat people.

speaking as someone who is fat and antagonising, i still don't actually care.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 5, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> fat-antagonism?  is that being fat and antagonising, or antagonising fat people.



It appears to depend on whether there's a hyphen. Although I'm not 100% which way round is which.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 5, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> It would be absurd to ascribe the whole phenomenon of jihadism to sexual frustration, but I don't believe it's an irrelevant point either. Think of Sean South, for example - before he was killed in the first action of the IRA's border campaign in 1956, he was known for going round the cinemas of Limerick, hunting for teenagers who might be engaged in acts of sin (mild kissing, that sort of thing) and forcibly separating them.
> 
> Even by the standards of 1950s Ireland, that was an eccentric way to behave, and I don't think it's unrelated to the rest of of South's politics, be it his physical-force nationalism or his anti-semitism.



Fair point.  There's definitely a strain of Catholic thought that blames the Jews for the '60s, I'm familiar with that.  I haven't heard about it in an Irish nationalist context, but I can certainly imagine how the "logic" would run.

But of course this can only explain why particular individuals get involved, it can't explain the wider historical causes.  Plenty of people want it to though, because it distracts attention from the real, political issues.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 5, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Posh people squabbling?


More news from the front.



> Anarchist MemesLoughlin Wangfire Sullivan has been banned for body policing.
> -Leto-


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> > Anarchist MemesLoughlin Wangfire Sullivan has been banned for body policing.
> > -Leto-


'wangfire'? 
/childish


----------



## JimW (Mar 5, 2015)

The admins didn't hang fire with wangfire.


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

Body policing - is that a counter to the Class War thing? 'Call your cunt a copper' day 2015?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 5, 2015)

ooof!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 6, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> speaking as someone who is fat and antagonising, i still don't actually care.



That'll be the listlessness and lethargy caused by all the junk carbs and complex sugars you've been funnelling down your gorgepipe


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 6, 2015)

ooof


----------



## hot air baboon (Mar 6, 2015)

...its the squeezed middle...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 6, 2015)

http://www.alternet.org/environment/why-you-should-stop-eating-breakfast-lunch-and-dinner?

"Dogmatic adherence to mealtimes is anti-science, racist, and might actually be making you sick."


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 6, 2015)

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2015/03...-violence-is-white-supremacy-by-another-name/

the writer of this article and regular recipient of Ms Penny's public promotion is her sister.  Who even uses the same adopted surname as Laurie. 

The quality of work is about the same, and the depth of analysis is similarly merely ankle deep.  How fortunate we are to live in a time of _two _great talents.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 6, 2015)

Oddly, I imediatly lose intrest in articles that start off sounding like the beginning of a bad novel.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

To be honest that might be more credible if any of these guys had said a single word on the grooming scandals


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://wire.novaramedia.com/2015/03...-violence-is-white-supremacy-by-another-name/
> 
> the writer of this article and regular recipient of Ms Penny's public promotion is her sister.  Who even uses the same adopted surname as Laurie.
> 
> The quality of work is about the same, and the depth of analysis is similarly merely ankle deep.  How fortunate we are to live in a time of _two _great talents.




The society which we live in is a meritocracy. They are strivers, not skivers and you are jealous!


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

Talking about the grooming scandals might undermine their nonsense about 'swerfs' and how any sort of sexual exploitation is a choice and trafficking doesnt exist.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> To be honest that might be more credible if any of these guys had said a single word on the grooming scandals



They, and much of the left were calling people who talked about it racist even after the scale of what was happening was apparent to all but those who were ideologically committed to not seeing what was happening for what it was. See also her denial of the existence of gender segregation at Islamic Society lectures at British universities during which she libelled many women from a Muslim background.

They don't give a shit about kids getting raped or women who are being oppressed and will happily throw both under the bus to accumulate subcultural capital.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Talking about the grooming scandals might undermine their nonsense about 'swerfs' and how any sort of sexual exploitation is a choice and trafficking doesnt exist.



I agree, and ironically enough (or perhaps not) this puts their views in line with that of the South Yorkshire police.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

As we all know 'choices' exist in a vacuum you cis male oppressor.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

Poor people aren't sex workers, they are all exciting dominatrices or porn stars that go to art galleries or write books, get a Telegraph column and get played by Billie Piper on telly.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> The society which we live in is a meritocracy. They are strivers, not skivers and you are jealous!



Yes, and there's no nepotism within our little clique whatsoever.

Haters!


----------



## tim (Mar 6, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.alternet.org/environment/why-you-should-stop-eating-breakfast-lunch-and-dinner?
> 
> "Dogmatic adherence to mealtimes is anti-science, racist, and might actually be making you sick."






> They observed that the eating schedule of the native tribes was less rigid—the volume and timing of their eating varied with the seasons. Sometimes, when food was scarce, they fasted.



Fast being, presumably, in this case a euphemism for starved.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 6, 2015)

[edited for self-aggrandizing self-pity]


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2015)

rotheram council of the day claim they swerved their responsibilities for fear of being labeled racist. Right.*

Paps pick this up as 'PC ENABLES NONCES'

On the ground workers who made noise are largely ignored

*I wouldn't like to be labeled wrongfully as either but on balance, nonce enabler is worse personally. Its cross race.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Poor people aren't sex workers, they are all exciting dominatrices or porn stars that go to art galleries or write books, get a Telegraph column and get played by Billie Piper on telly.


Or if you are really unlucky your mum dresses you as a crap dom and sends you to school _at nine years old_ holding some cable ties because you are him from 50 shades of grey

great stuff


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

BTW that Novaramedia isn't good is it?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Or if you are really unlucky your mum dresses you as a crap dom and sends you to school _at nine years old_ holding some cable ties because you are him from 50 shades of grey
> 
> great stuff



Did that really happen?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Did that really happen?


yeah, it did. I just don't know where to start. BEDROOM. YOUR BEDROOM. Not your kids fucking fancy dress, what were you thinking


----------



## JimW (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Did that really happen?


Dotty is exaggerating, the lad was at least eleven.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 6, 2015)

JimW said:


> Dotty is exaggerating, the lad was at least eleven.


What is this, Yewtree role play?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> BTW that Novaramedia isn't good is it?



Novaremedial, amirite?


----------



## treelover (Mar 6, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Talking about the grooming scandals might undermine their nonsense about 'swerfs' and how any sort of sexual exploitation is a choice and trafficking doesnt exist.











What on earth is a 'swerf'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> What on earth is a 'swerf'?


why not try googling so you can show everyone, for once, that you're able to find things out.


----------



## JimW (Mar 6, 2015)

Keen to exclude sex work from feminism, so keen in fact they call them swerf-eagers, but I wash my hands of that.


----------



## treelover (Mar 6, 2015)

It is a rhetorical question, designed to get an robust response


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> It is a rhetorical question, designed to get an robust response


it nearly did but i thought it didn't quite merit a stern 'fuck off'


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

Its just a nonsense word used to associate people who dont like pimps and pornographers with the likes of eg cathy brennan.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2015)

JimW said:


> Keen to exclude sex work from feminism, so keen in fact they call them* swerf-eagers*, but I wash my hands of that.


you monster


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Its just a nonsense word used to associate people who dont like pimps and pornographers with the likes of eg cathy brennan.


the use of a subcultural language from neo fabian whiners you say? excluding the debate from norms with this hmm?  astonished you may paint me


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> the use of a subcultural language from neo fabian whiners you say?  astonished you may paint me



It's just nonsense. I can't take anyone who uses that term seriously.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)




----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

Meritocracy


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


>



redolent of sabres sinking into communards my dear chap, a heady brew of sensation


----------



## J Ed (Mar 6, 2015)

I bet our Laurie doesn't speak any foreign languages, I'd like to see her to do a lecture in a second language. Mocking ESL speakers like that is just basic xenophobia, isn't it?


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I bet our Laurie doesn't speak any foreign languages, I'd like to see her to do a lecture in a second language. Mocking ESL speakers like that is just basic xenophobia, isn't it?



She's fluent in self-serving, fraudulent bullshit, to be fair.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I bet our Laurie doesn't speak any foreign languages, I'd like to see her to do a lecture in a second language. Mocking ESL speakers like that is just basic xenophobia, isn't it?


It's really not cool and is downright xenophobic. I work with many ESL people, some of whom speak better English than I do but to mock their accents would be quite rude indeed.

I try to make an effort to learn the basics of a language so I can at least say please and thank you to people, and my accent is not great. It's only polite I think,  but I have travelled with people whose idea of learning the language is to shout louder in English.
Mortifying, and how her tweets make me feel.


----------



## rekil (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I bet our Laurie doesn't speak any foreign languages,


She's fluent in REVOLUTION.


----------



## Favelado (Mar 6, 2015)

She knows one word in Portuguese and wrote a poem about it so fuck off all of you.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Mocking ESL speakers like that is just basic xenophobia, isn't it?



Only if you're unfeasibly humorless.


----------



## Favelado (Mar 6, 2015)

To be fair, I'm an ESL teacher and I do it.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 6, 2015)

Someone needs to get her the box set of 'Mind your Language'


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Mocking ESL speakers like that is just basic xenophobia, isn't it?



Some more Fascist xenophobic ESL mocking bastards:


----------



## Belushi (Mar 6, 2015)

Von Smallhausen


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/...-womens-room-and-other-bathroom-complications

Those crazy _hysterical_ women.



> I could saunter confidently into any restroom that had that outline of a little woman, standing primly in her A-line skirt with her hands at her sides and feet together — you know, the way cisgender women often stand in front of public elevators — and know that if I wasn't her sister, at least all my effort had purchased another Day Pass to FemaleLand. I drew stares, but not blood.
> 
> But gradually that effort evaporated. Strip the long hair, earrings, lipstick, mascara, and blush off most cisgender women and you still usually pretty much see a woman. Strip them off me and what you see is ... Richard. And no matter how feminine I feel inside, Richard gets no Day Pass. Richard sauntering confidently into the women's room is ... chaos.
> 
> ...





> After paying for my exorbitantly expensive goods, I made a beeline for the women's room by the registers. Just as I exit my stall, there's Crazy Woman, standing between me and the door.
> 
> Crazy Woman takes one look and — although her voice has been in fourth gear all morning — finds that she can still reach that fifth one in overdrive: "_WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE! THIS IS THE WOMAN'S ROOM! WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN HERE!_" over and over.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 6, 2015)

> you know, the way cisgender women often stand in front of public elevators



whit?


----------



## Belushi (Mar 6, 2015)

Its weird, but when we put our mind to it men are better at being women than women :thumbs :


----------



## Limerick Red (Mar 6, 2015)




----------



## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2015)

Limerick Red


----------



## smokedout (Mar 7, 2015)

see if this piece, unfortunate language aside, was about any other group facing abuse and possibly violence for going to the toilet this kind of response wouldnt be tolerated on here


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 7, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It's really not cool and is downright xenophobic. I work with many ESL people, some of whom speak better English than I do but to mock their accents would be quite rude indeed.
> 
> I try to make an effort to learn the basics of a language so I can at least say please and thank you to people, and my accent is not great. It's only polite I think,  but I have travelled with people whose idea of learning the language is to shout louder in English.
> Mortifying, and how her tweets make me feel.



Welcome to my world:


----------



## weepiper (Mar 7, 2015)

smokedout said:


> see if this piece, unfortunate language aside, was about any other group facing abuse and possibly violence for going to the toilet this kind of response wouldnt be tolerated on here


You know women in general face abuse and violence for going to the toilet, right? See when groups of women go to the toilet together in a nightclub, that's not because they want to have a natter in private, it's learned behaviour not to go alone because going to the toilet is dangerous. You risk assault. I don't let my daughter (or my sons for that matter but they're younger) go into public toilets alone. We have only very recently been 'allowed' public toilets as a safe space at all. Plenty of pubs didn't have any women's toilet right up until the 80s. In countries where indoor toilets are not common women have to go out into the fields and risk rape daily just to have a shit. This stuff is not something only trans people have to cope with. As with so much of the abuse they face. It's part of being a woman.
Edit, what we need is far more public toilets of the 'disabled/baby changing' type, which are single gender-neutral cubicles with a lock containing a toilet, a sink and space to change clothes in. That would be safe for everyone. But it's expensive to build so it doesn't happen often. Cheaper to put in a row of stalls and a row of sinks.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 7, 2015)

weepiper said:


> You know women in general face abuse and violence for going to the toilet, right? See when groups of women go to the toilet together in a nightclub, that's not because they want to have a natter in private, it's learned behaviour not to go alone because going to the toilet is dangerous. You risk assault. I don't let my daughter (or my sons for that matter but they're younger) go into public toilets alone. We have only very recently been 'allowed' public toilets as a safe space at all. Plenty of pubs didn't have any women's toilet right up until the 80s. In countries where indoor toilets are not common women have to go out into the fields and risk rape daily just to have a shit. This stuff is not something only trans people have to cope with. As with so much of the abuse they face. It's part of being a woman.



who's denying that, but there's is obviously something going on here that is specific to people who are gender non-conforming however they define themselves and I don't really see someone discussing that as being a legitimate point for attack, or a forensic analysis that every word they say is perfect.  as I said, other marginalised groups would not, I don't think be subject to such scrutiny, or mocking attacks on here which have more than once lapsed into thinly veiled sneering about them being men really.

this is not a group with any social power, they are not represented in the commentariat except for by leeches like penny, they are not represented anywhere beyond the odd person writing in the lgbt press, the suicide attempt rate for young trans people is almost 50% (compared to 6% for non-trans people), there is clearly something going on here beyond misogyny, I would have expected a more sympathetic hearing


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 7, 2015)

people are perfectly sympathetic to transgender rights around here, i would hope.  criticising a transgender blogger isn't the same as wanting all transgender people put into camps.  you're using the laurie penny misogyny defence here.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 7, 2015)

Favelado said:


> She knows one word in Portuguese and wrote a poem about it so fuck off all of you.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 7, 2015)

Not denying any of that but i read the whole piece and that article seemed, to me anyway to have a seriously misogynistic and sneering tone, maybe i have read it wrong but it seemed to me that the piece was mocking the very idea that women might get nervous about a man (or someone that appeared to be one) being in the public toilet and suggesting that the problem being with those crazy women rather than pervs and violent blokes who make public toilets a dangerous place for them and for any transgender people too.

Could have read it wrongly though, wouldnt be the first time.


----------



## phildwyer (Mar 7, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Welcome to my world:



"Ergo?"  Bleedin ignorant foreigners can't even recognize English let alone speak it.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 7, 2015)

And as i saw this thread ive just read from a trans (I think) SP member on fb that they were just asked to leave a reclaim the night march by a labour cllr who has just voted to cut the funding for womens DV services, be worth doing some digging on this i reckon, looks like a case of 'feminist' posturing to cover up their role in administering austerity that will obviously disproportionately affect women


----------



## smokedout (Mar 7, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Not denying any of that but i read the whole piece and that article seemed, to me anyway to have a seriously misogynistic and sneering tone, maybe i have read it wrong but it seemed to me that the piece was mocking the very idea that women might get nervous about a man (or someone that appeared to be one) being in the public toilet and suggesting that the problem being with those crazy women rather than pervs and violent blokes who make public toilets a dangerous place for them and for any transgender people too.



it does ackowledge that, to a small degree, but its not about that, its not even a piece that makes any demands, its just someone discussing their experiences and unhelpful language aside (I think shes trying to be funny, it says shes a stand up comic) it seemed to me quite a thoughtful piece.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 7, 2015)

also, if you went searching through unknown blogs, or the fringe media belonging to other marginalised groups, not least the terfs, but almost any you care to mention you would find much more virulent stuff, yet no-one is doing that. no-one would suggest that ISIS videos should be used as a starting point for a discussion about racism that muslims face. yet people seem to delight in picking out the most fringe points of view from people who are transgender, which actually often arent all that extreme when you strip them down, and using this to define trans-politics as misogynist. I dont think ive seen another group of political women, whatever their position, being described as misogynist before either, which raises another question, which is that deep down are trans-women actually still considered to be men in so far as they can be political actors.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 7, 2015)

dp


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 7, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I try to make an effort to learn the basics of a language so I can at least say please and thank you to people, and my accent is not great. It's only polite I think,  but I have travelled with people whose idea of learning the language is to shout louder in English.
> Mortifying, and how her tweets make me feel.



Likewise. When I'm in France I always try my French before expecting local people to use English. My French is basic, but I know enough to get by and it's a point of principle with me that I use it even if I do have the odd conversation in the dreaded Franglais, where we struggle to understand each other but both make the effort to do so.

It annoys me that so many people, particularly us Brits, have an unfortunate habit of assuming and expecting that, wherever we go, there'll always be somebody who speaks English as though it's some kind of birthright not to have bother respecting other countries culture and language. Talking to a non-English speaker in English and expecting them to be fluent is rude, disrespectful and also impractical. It doesn't matter how loudly or slowly I were to speak in English to a French person unless they too speak English because I'd still just be bellowing at them in a language they don't understand.

Something many Brits abroad do which never ceases to irritate me enormously. Just pick up a simply phrasebook before getting on your plane or ferry, it really isn't that difficult.


----------



## Favelado (Mar 7, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Likewise. When I'm in France I always try my French before expecting local people to use English. My French is basic, but I know enough to get by and it's a point of principle with me that I use it even if I do have the odd conversation in the dreaded Franglais, where we struggle to understand each other but both make the effort to do so.
> 
> It annoys me that so many people, particularly us Brits, have an unfortunate habit of assuming and expecting that, wherever we go, there'll always be somebody who speaks English as though it's some kind of birthright not to have bother respecting other countries culture and language. Talking to a non-English speaker in English and expecting them to be fluent is rude, disrespectful and also impractical. It doesn't matter how loudly or slowly I were to speak in English to a French person unless they too speak English because I'd still just be bellowing at them in a language they don't understand.
> 
> Something many Brits abroad do which never ceases to irritate me enormously. Just pick up a simply phrasebook before getting on your plane or ferry, it really isn't that difficult.



"Well Spain would be fucked without tourism so they should all speak English." I've heard people on holiday in Barcelona say this. I hope they drown in the Med because they don't know how to shout "¡Socorro!"


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 7, 2015)

Favelado said:


> "Well Spain would be fucked without tourism so they should all speak English." I've heard people on holiday in Barcelona say this. I hope they drown in the Med because they don't know how to shout "¡Socorro!"



Well, if I didn't know the phrase 'Je suis diabetique' I could be dead if I had a hypoglycaemic attack. So there's a definite practical advantage to learning the basics of a country I'm visiting.


----------



## binka (Mar 8, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Well, if I didn't know the phrase 'Je suis diabetique' I could be dead if I had a hypoglycaemic attack. So there's a definite practical advantage to learning the basics of a country I'm visiting.


terrible example. im sure your average frenchman would understand the word 'diabetic' as long as you said it loudly enough


----------



## The Boy (Mar 8, 2015)

Diabetic in French is basically the same but in a French accent.  Nae worries 

edit: On the other hand, if you ask for salt and sauce they look at you funny.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 8, 2015)

The Boy said:


> edit: On the other hand, if you ask for salt and sauce they look at you funny.



You don't have to go to France for that, Glasgow's far enough.


----------



## The Boy (Mar 8, 2015)

weepiper said:


> You don't have to go to France for that, Glasgow's far enough.


Aye, but they batter their pizza before they deep fry them.  Madness.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 10, 2015)

The staggers says #notallsexwork


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


> The staggers says #notallsexwork


thats based on the straw man that opponents of  sex work as it stands are not 'expecting a waitress to be empowered'. Thats a construct the author has invented to hang an argument on.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


> The staggers says #notallsexwork


Would you be at all surprised to learn that the non-sex sex worker and author of that piece - pandora blake - is oxbridge and a mate of laurie penny?


----------



## weepiper (Mar 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


> The staggers says #notallsexwork


aaaargh fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2015)

its also suggesting that people are holding sex work as uniquely above other employment in terms of how it (should) empowers the worker- rather than y'know, the issues  surrounding safety from violence, safety wrt health, workplace representation, social stigma, legality, mental health, addiction etc etc


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2015)

Chris Morris:



> Vulnerable young women who lack the maturity, university education, support network, self-possession and financial safety net may read the media coverage of these 'happy hookers' and buy into the idea of stripping or prostitution as a viable career prospect



Laurie Penny:


> Luckily, the amount of heroin I use is harmless, I inject about once a month on a purely recreational basis. Fine. But what about other people less stable, less educated, less middle-class than me? Builders or blacks for example. If you're one of those, my advice is leave well alone. Good luck.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 10, 2015)

are we still not allowed a class analysis of sex work?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 10, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> are we still not allowed a class analysis of sex work?



They're all at Oxbridge or LA art galleries aren't they?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 10, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> are we still not allowed a class analysis of sex work?



Swerfs


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 11, 2015)

_If leftwingers like me are condemned as rightwing, then what’s left?_ Tim Lott
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/11/mainstream-left-silencing-sympathetic-voices

This is a full house - whining in a national paper about being "silenced", some misgivings about identity politics AND support for Spiked.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 11, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> _If leftwingers like me are condemned as rightwing, then what’s left?_ Tim Lott
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/11/mainstream-left-silencing-sympathetic-voices
> 
> This is a full house - whining in a national paper about being "silenced", some misgivings about identity politics AND support for Spiked.






> Nick Cohen, Christopher Hitchens, David Aaronovich, Julie Burchill, Julie Bindel and others have often been at the rough end of this debate, for daring to voice opinions of their own that do not fit the overarching narrative.



lol


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> _If leftwingers like me are condemned as rightwing, then what’s left?_ Tim Lott
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/11/mainstream-left-silencing-sympathetic-voices
> 
> This is a full house - whining in a national paper about being "silenced", some misgivings about identity politics AND support for Spiked.


...and mentioning dinner party invites.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2015)

The poor silenced thing is left with only his weekly Guardian column and his  op-ed writer position with The _Independent._


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 11, 2015)

Also the classic "but I'm only asking questions why are people being so mean to me?" device as used by conspiraloons and trolls the world over.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 11, 2015)

Belushi said:


> > Nick Cohen, Christopher Hitchens, David Aaronovich, Julie Burchill, Julie Bindel and others have often been at the rough end of this debate, for daring to voice opinions of their own that do not fit the overarching narrative.
> 
> 
> lol



The hidden victims


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 11, 2015)

The twitter groupthink has been digging. This from July 2013



And he wonders why people have a go at him.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 11, 2015)

The left forced me to become a tory


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 11, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> _If leftwingers like me are condemned as rightwing, then what’s left?_ Tim Lott
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/11/mainstream-left-silencing-sympathetic-voices
> 
> This is a full house - whining in a national paper about being "silenced", some misgivings about identity politics AND support for Spiked.


 This is one of the most confused pieces of writing I've seen anywhere. Congrats to the guardian for having a major columnist with the knowledge and arguing skills of a poor Fox News presenter.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 11, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> The left forced me to become a tory



give it a decade and i bet you that LP and OJ will be using similar arguments.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 11, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> give it a decade and i bet you that LP and OJ will be using similar arguments.



I think they kind of already are.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 11, 2015)

I have never, ever read such smug, self-serving and dishonest bullshit as that vomit from Tim Lott. Why are dickheads like that allowed to live?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 11, 2015)

Oh the true left now is to be found battling over those key issues facing the working-class like fag packets and gamergate while wearing George W Bush baseball caps. I wonder what it's like to get an actual narcotic high from your own farts, can someone with twitter ask Tim Lott?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I have never, ever read such smug, self-serving and dishonest bullshit as that vomit from Tim Lott. Why are dickheads like that allowed to live?



Because I only ever see them when I haven't got my gun


----------



## J Ed (Mar 12, 2015)

The 1 Percent’s White Privilege Con: Elites Hold 'Conversations' about Race, while Resegregating Our Schools The white privilege conversation is good business and P.R. for the wealthy. But look more closely at their actions.



> There’s even an annual “White Privilege Conference,” which is being held this year at Dalton School (tuition: $41,350). More and more private schools, according to the Times, “select students to attend” that conference. These students are so select (and these schools so selective) that they have to be selected to attend a conference on their selectedness.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 19, 2015)

So apparently this is actually a thing



> Okay, well, now Starbucks is planning on starting a national dialogue on race that will consist of talking to your Starbucks barista, about race. What are you doing, Starbucks? What? Are? You doing?
> 
> No? No. Yes, this is a real thing reported by many of our nation's top news outlets, and here are the facts that you need to know in order to avoid experiencing what could be one of the most painfully awkward interactions of your life with a random Starbucks barista:
> 
> ...



However, we get a good response in this interview...



> When I first read about this #RaceTogether thing, I thought it was a joke. It’s like something from ClickHole. But as seemingly weird as it is, I wonder, is it really coming out of nowhere? Or is it actually in keeping with how the “conversation” about race has been happening for a while — but especially in the Obama years?
> 
> It took me a while even to process what this initiative is supposed to mean and how it’s supposed to proceed. So the barista’s supposed to open the conversation by suggesting a racially appropriate drink, or what?
> 
> ...



I also found this bit interesting



> Another weird element to the #RaceTogether project, I thought, was the way it tried to increase (and outsource) a kind of emotional labor onto the Starbucks staff. According to Fortune, about 40 percent of Starbucks’ workforce is comprised of racial minorities; so now in many places not only are Starbucks workers going to have to pretend they enjoy handling long lines of grumpy people who just want their coffee, but they’re also going to have to do the work of talking about race to assuage the guilt — I guess? — of their customers, many of whom are white.
> 
> I think that’s a very good point. In fact, I mentioned to a trade union activist friend of mine that I was going to be talking to you today, and I sent him the link to [the Starbucks announcement], stuff and his immediate response was, Why doesn’t Starbucks encourage a conversation about wages, health care benefits, or working conditions? I wish I could say that I find this particular kind of self-righteousness and myopia to class inequality astounding, but it’s been around for too long now. I find it the equivalent of astounding in the brazenness of the oversight.



I mean, I get what they mean here. While working in call centres my continued employment has been dependent on actively defending the private healthcare insurance schemes and bank accounts owned by irate customers to them and people in my job were trained to defend those products in very ideological ways couched in neoliberal terminology. Is this really that different? I have to say that that was the first thing that occurred to me when I heard about this race together nonsense, that it is not a million miles away from what millions of people are required to do every day anyway.


----------



## rekil (Mar 19, 2015)

A new New Inkwirry? Nein danke.



> Across literary form and theoretical loyalty, obsessed with politics, economics, art and the (post)(anti)human, Salvage declares for austere revolutionary pessimism.
> 
> Salvage-Marxism embraces the Socialist rococo, the feel-good where we can and the feel-bad where we must, the utopian and the unflinching. Salvage will bring together the work of those who share a heartbroken, furious love of the world, and our rigorous principle: Hope is precious; it must be rationed.



(Just saw that fozzie had already posted this on the SWP thread )


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2015)

copliker said:


> A new New Inkwirry? Nein danke.


Socialist rococo...


----------



## NoXion (Mar 20, 2015)

copliker said:


> A new New Inkwirry? Nein danke.



Whenever I read this kind of stuff, my understanding veers between "well duh" and "I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about". Where the hell does this shit come from?


----------



## rekil (Mar 20, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Where the hell does this shit come from?


It looks like Richard Seymour pinched it off PD's bank loan application for the Girder, changed a few words and took out the betting tips. 

He loves his rococo he does.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 20, 2015)

copliker said:


> It looks like Richard Seymour pinched it off PD's bank loan application for the Girder, changed a few words and took out the betting tips.
> 
> He loves his rococo he does.
> 
> View attachment 69014



Where the hell does that come from?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## NoXion (Mar 20, 2015)

copliker said:


> It looks like Richard Seymour pinched it off PD's bank loan application for the Girder, changed a few words and took out the betting tips.
> 
> He loves his rococo he does.



Bloody hell. No, it's not esoteric politics or "rococo ornamentation" that I find off-putting, it's the overweeningly arrogant assumptions, superior tone and the lack of willingness to actually attempt to explain and examine things that repels me (maybe that's what they mean by "intellectual swagger"). Swearing is not a problem either.


----------



## rekil (Mar 20, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Where the hell does that come from?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


The preface of his last book. It's absolutely desperate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 20, 2015)

About that ‘intellectual swagger’ - sorry to disappoint you, old bean, but I suspect it's just an untreated anal fissure that's making you walk like that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2015)

at least this time it hasn't descended into 2 pages of trot rap


----------



## Flavour (Mar 21, 2015)

more on the almost super-hero pairing of paloma faith and OJ here with everyone roundly agreeing that it is just, simply, fucking, marvellous.

"The music industry has never been a groovy anarchist art collective."


----------



## J Ed (Mar 21, 2015)

Let's hear what more celebritys have to say so that we can print celeb gossip with a veneer of Radio 4 broadsheet credibility!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 23, 2015)

There's a discussion on Richard Seymour's Facebook page about prostitution which is heading for 500 posts. Riddled with choosey-choicey liberalism of the sort that denies that there's anything wrong with paying for sex at all. Funnily enough none of them would admit to doing so themselves.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 24, 2015)

Socialist Resistance publish a straight up TERF piece. http://socialistresistance.org/7292/feminists-and-transgender-why-is-there-a-debate


----------



## campanula (Mar 24, 2015)

yawn yawn yawn - where's the fucking gardening page?

time for a boycott of P&P I think.....


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 25, 2015)

Great moments in identity politics:


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 25, 2015)

deep!


----------



## rekil (Mar 25, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> There's a discussion on Richard Seymour's Facebook page about prostitution which is heading for 500 posts. Riddled with choosey-choicey liberalism of the sort that denies that there's anything wrong with paying for sex at all. Funnily enough none of them would admit to doing so themselves.


He's a bit of a creep isn't he. Pimpdaddy Dick.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 25, 2015)

Fetish, you say?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 25, 2015)

copliker said:


> He's a bit of a creep isn't he. Pimpdaddy Dick.
> 
> View attachment 69236



Is it me or is he starting to see himself as some sort of cult leader figure?


----------



## agricola (Mar 25, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Great moments in identity politics:




Its as if a million voices cried out _"but they enslaved him"_, and were suddenly silenced.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 25, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Is it me or is he starting to see himself as some sort of cult leader figure?


First as tragedy, then as farce.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 25, 2015)

copliker said:


> He's a bit of a creep isn't he. Pimpdaddy Dick.
> 
> View attachment 69236



The only thing more distasteful than male "socialists" defending men who hire prostitutes is Richard Seymour talking about his fetishes.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 25, 2015)

Perhaps Proletarian Democracy could commission him to do a sex worker review column for Worker's Girder, to keep up with the sex industry positive turn of much of the left. He could rate prostitutes out of ten for their oral sex skills, ideological soundness and how empowerfulized they seem to be.


----------



## rioted (Mar 25, 2015)

The fact that their bodies are up for hire is the one thing that unites the working class.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 25, 2015)

Andrew Marr has done an article called "British Politics Is Broken" for The New Statesman - like now he realises. One of the major reasons it is broken is because self important people like him have been asleep at the wheel through timidity and an acceptance of an ever narrower, more reactionary agenda. What a plank, trying to look astute for helping diagnose a problem he is a huge part of.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 26, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> at least this time it hasn't descended into 2 pages of trot rap



STRAIGHT OUT OF MARXISM
A CRAZY MOTHERFUCKER CALLED SEYMOUR


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2015)

subs owed in different area codes etc


----------



## Balbi (Mar 26, 2015)

You are about to witness the strength of street paper selling.


----------



## caleb (Mar 26, 2015)

> UK's National Union of Students has passed a policy to stop gay men appropriating black female culture.
> 
> Delegates at the Women's Conference today, many of them self-identified feminists, have passed plenty of motions.
> 
> ...



http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/...y-stop-white-gay-men-acting-black-women250315


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2015)

I used to know a guy who would dress up as a woman at any given opportunity. It didn't matter what the theme of a fancy dress party was, he would be there every single time dressed as a woman.

I assumed this was because he really liked dressing up as a woman and didn't get much chance to do so in public. I doubt that he self-identified as queer or as a transvestite - he was quite churchy.

Personally I think all men should be actively encouraged to dress up as women all the time. They might learn something. I certainly did when I gave it a go.


----------



## caleb (Mar 26, 2015)

Am I unfairly reading this as '... but it's alright when people we like do it":

"This ruling was given an exclusion to queer students who want to use cross-dressing in their everyday lives as a mode of expression and to those who want to cross-play by flipping the gender of a fictional character in fancy dress."


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)

Any motions on the rise of luxury student accommodation or are the NUS doing deals with selected partners?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> Am I unfairly reading this as '... but it's alright when people we like do it":
> 
> "This ruling was given an exclusion to queer students who want to use cross-dressing in their everyday lives as a mode of expression and to those who want to cross-play by flipping the gender of a fictional character in fancy dress."



People who know the correct buzzwords and know the rules of the game, certainly.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2015)

Can't find a list of motions anywhere, just bemusement on various blogs.

Here is a discussion of the jazz hands thing from one of the originators of the request to stop clapping:
http://oxfordstudent.com/2015/03/25...uccessful-derailing-of-nus-womens-conference/


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 26, 2015)

i guess what it's saying is that certain manners of clothing are proscribed to certain people, because sex, gender, and clothing, are all the same thing.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2015)

This guy is getting all huffy about a motion about a universal basic income, the abolition (or rather "abolishment") of prisons and the not appropriating black women stuff and seems to reproduce the actual motions:

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/revealed-the-outrageous-demands-from-nus-womens-conference/


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 26, 2015)

i wonder if they intend to have "modesty police" to make sure everyone is appropriately dressed at all times.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 26, 2015)

fucking hell, that jazz hands thing takes the biscuit.  Are these people real?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2015)

Novara were banging on about how the NUS has abandoned the demand for free higher education. You'd imagine that would make a huge difference to women as well and is possibly a more relevant campaigning issue of the NUS than abolishing prisons.


----------



## caleb (Mar 26, 2015)

I'm not pro-prison, but where does prison abolition fit into any of this? It doesn't really mean anything in this case other than 'I've read Angela Davis'...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 26, 2015)

They've had a conference where they've decided not to campaign about anything big.  Presumably it's a lot easier to declare victory in the war on men-inappropriately-dressed-as-women than it is to actually take on the same government that they all hope to be members of in a few years.

The NUS has been a bunch of despicable politico cowards for a long time.  Abandoning the last campaigning issue that actually means something renders it all but pointless.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> Am I unfairly reading this as '... but it's alright when people we like do it":
> 
> "This ruling was given an exclusion to queer students who want to use cross-dressing in their everyday lives as a mode of expression and to those who want to cross-play by flipping the gender of a fictional character in fancy dress."



I'm reading it as "we want to be like the cool kids in the USA".


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/...y-stop-white-gay-men-acting-black-women250315





> UK's National Union of Students has passed a policy to stop gay men appropriating black [female] culture...
> 
> ...Just one of them was ensuring everyone at the conference understood that some behaviors were damaging.
> 
> On Twitter, they announced: 'Some delegates are requesting that we move to jazz hands rather than clapping as it's triggering anxiety. Please be mindful!'



Quite apart from the question of how exactly clapping might trigger anxiety in a widespread or significant way, there is a certain irony in having a policy to stop (presumably) "white" people appropriating "black" culture alongside a proposal to adopt jazz hands as the alternative to clapping.







Looks to me like the most dangerous type of behaviour is introducing ill-considered motions which make you into a laughing stock...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)

What really annoys me is that the previous turn inwards towards policing  individual behaviours rather than seeking to change society came after a series of defeats and so a period of retreat, but those defeats only came about because of great battles - what battles have these clowns lost, or been involved in? This _is the defeat_ this time around isn't it?


----------



## caleb (Mar 26, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What really annoys me is that the previous turn inwards towards policing behaviours rather than seeking to change society came after a series of defeats and so a period of retreat, but those defeats only came about because of great battles - what battles have these clowns lost, or been involved in? This _is the defeat_ this time around isn't it?



I think the closest thing to a "great battle" would be the student movement of 2010, the defeats obviously being £9k fees being introduced, EMA abolished, etc. That movement lasted all of three months, occasionally looked like it had the potential to reemerge in various places on a smaller scale, but ultimately came to nothing. But thats a bout it.


----------



## agricola (Mar 26, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What really annoys me is that the previous turn inwards towards policing  individual behaviours rather than seeking to change society came after a series of defeats and so a period of retreat, but those defeats only came about because of great battles - what battles have these clowns lost, or been involved in? This _is the defeat_ this time around isn't it?



Has the NUS nationally ever been involved in a great battle, though?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)

agricola said:


> Has the NUS nationally ever been involved in a great battle, though?


The original fight against tuition fees in the late 80s i suppose - that was largely swallowed up by anti-poll tax stuff if i remember right, and the number of students was a lot smaller then and the role of students less central to society/state. I wasn't really on about just the NUS though - more the wider left and the reaction of many to the defeats of the 70s and early 80s.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2015)

The first proper argy bargy demo I went on was an NUS one against the introduction of tuition fees in late 1988.

A big march with a huge breakaway that attempted to head over Westminster bridge whilst parliament was sitting. We got charged by police horses and a few hundred of us later marched down to Bow Street to demand the release of people arrested.

Admittedly a lot of this was not what the NUS itself had planned but there was wider politicking at the time too and I did get the sense that there was a united campaign against fees being introduced.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The first proper argy bargy demo I went on was an NUS one against the introduction of tuition fees in late 1988.
> 
> A big march with a huge breakaway that attempted to head over Westminster bridge whilst parliament was sitting. We got charged by police horses and a few hundred of us later marched down to Bow Street to demand the release of people arrested.
> 
> Admittedly a lot of this was not what the NUS itself had planned but there was wider politicking at the time too and I did get the sense that there was a united campaign against fees being introduced.


Yes, i got involved despite not being a student and being a bit of an anti-student dick at the time. It was quite exciting because a lot of the people involved hadn't been through the leftist grind - they didn't know, for example that you _weren't allowed_ go and block off all the traffic into broadmead (main shopping centre in bristol) after secretly organising kids to all walk out one afternoon.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 26, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What really annoys me is that the previous turn inwards towards policing  individual behaviours rather than seeking to change society came after a series of defeats and so a period of retreat, but those defeats only came about because of great battles - what battles have these clowns lost, or been involved in? This _is the defeat_ this time around isn't it?


Isn't this still the legacy of those defeats though?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This guy is getting all huffy about a motion about a universal basic income, the abolition (or rather "abolishment") of prisons and the not appropriating black women stuff and seems to reproduce the actual motions:
> 
> http://thebackbencher.co.uk/revealed-the-outrageous-demands-from-nus-womens-conference/



"The backbencher", besides creating a neologism, is a dick. they haven't called for "the abolition of prisons", but for the abolition of the "prison-industrial complex", which is an entirely different set of issues.
The rest of the statement and motion is entirely uncontroversial.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Isn't this still the legacy of those defeats though?


Of course, they partially set the context for it - but this stuff is viewed and theorised by these clowns as victories, as successful resistance. As winning.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> I'm not pro-prison, but where does prison abolition fit into any of this? It doesn't really mean anything in this case other than 'I've read Angela Davis'...



It's not about abolition of prisons, it's about the abolition of the current "prison-industrial" system that extracts surplus value from inmates, with all the implications for "justice" that doing so has. it's fairly "vanilla".


----------



## caleb (Mar 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not about abolition of prisons, it's about the abolition of the current "prison-industrial" system that extracts surplus value from inmates, with all the implications for "justice" that doing so has. it's fairly "vanilla".



Sure, it's a "demand" that seems completely devoid of context though. To me, at least. It just seems LARP-y: we've read our Angela Davis and know about past struggles, so let's emulate them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> They've had a conference where they've decided not to campaign about anything big.  Presumably it's a lot easier to declare victory in the war on men-inappropriately-dressed-as-women than it is to actually take on the same government that they all hope to be members of in a few years.
> 
> The NUS has been a bunch of despicable politico cowards for a long time.  Abandoning the last campaigning issue that actually means something renders it all but pointless.



More than anything else, the NUS has served as a "nursery" for the sort of self-interested, self-obsessed members of the political class who formed the younger cohort of "new Labour". They have little interest in actual confrontational action (remember the NUS wankshaft during the student riots disavowing the riots?), but plenty of interest in posturing and preening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> They've had a conference where they've decided not to campaign about anything big.  Presumably it's a lot easier to declare victory in the war on men-inappropriately-dressed-as-women than it is to actually take on the same government that they all hope to be members of in a few years.
> 
> The NUS has been a bunch of despicable politico cowards for a long time.  Abandoning the last campaigning issue that actually means something renders it all but pointless.


david widgery described it, more than 40 years ago, as the students' muffler, while it has long been known as No Use to Students.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> Sure, it's a "demand" that seems completely devoid of context though. To me, at least. It just seems LARP-y: we've read our Angela Davis and know about past struggles, so let's emulate them.



I think that it's more that the issues around the incarceration of women *do* STILL need to be challenged (people were bringing info such as what they state in the "we believe" section of the motion to light back in the '80s, for all the good it did), and that the context with regard to "abolition" is that "the prison industrial complex" can impact especially-harshly on women inside the system. That's pretty uncontroversial, and very much a staple of criminological and sociological studies of the impacts of imprisonment in the UK and in the US.
And sure, while waving their supposed erudition in peoples' faces is cringeworthy and easily spottable, that's not to say that they don't have a point.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What really annoys me is that the previous turn inwards towards policing  individual behaviours rather than seeking to change society came after a series of defeats and so a period of retreat, but those defeats only came about because of great battles - what battles have these clowns lost, or been involved in? This _is the defeat_ this time around isn't it?



As was said further up the thread: "First as tragedy, then as farce".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> I think the closest thing to a "great battle" would be the student movement of 2010, the defeats obviously being £9k fees being introduced, EMA abolished, etc. That movement lasted all of three months, occasionally looked like it had the potential to reemerge in various places on a smaller scale, but ultimately came to nothing. But thats a bout it.



Had very little to do with the hierarchy of the NUS, though, who went all-out to show that they weren't involved, until they realised that non-involvement might cost them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2015)

caleb said:


> I think the closest thing to a "great battle" would be the student movement of 2010, the defeats obviously being £9k fees being introduced, EMA abolished, etc. That movement lasted all of three months, occasionally looked like it had the potential to reemerge in various places on a smaller scale, but ultimately came to nothing. But thats a bout it.


more like 'the closest thing to a "great bottle"...'


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 26, 2015)

NUS Jazz hands make headlines in Oireland:

http://www.dailyedge.ie/conference-2014696-Mar2015/


----------



## caleb (Mar 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that it's more that the issues around the incarceration of women *do* STILL need to be challenged (people were bringing info such as what they state in the "we believe" section of the motion to light back in the '80s, for all the good it did), and that the context with regard to "abolition" is that "the prison industrial complex" can impact especially-harshly on women inside the system. That's pretty uncontroversial, and very much a staple of criminological and sociological studies of the impacts of imprisonment in the UK and in the US.
> And sure, while waving their supposed erudition in peoples' faces is cringeworthy and easily spottable, that's not to say that they don't have a point.



Won't argue with this, then. As I said, I'm not pro-prison (and that particular blog was nasty right-wing shit), I just didn't see any context for that particular motion.



ViolentPanda said:


> Had very little to do with the hierarchy of the NUS, though, who went all-out to show that they weren't involved, until they realised that non-involvement might cost them.



Yeah, but I didn't see butchersapron's post as being purely about the NUS. I was just saying you can look at what's happening in student politics now as part of that defeat in 2010.

Also despite being a student and a member of the NUS (only two months left of that, mind), I've never really understood the internal NUS structure. Watching from afar though, it seems there are plenty of noisy "radicals" willing to shout out loud about how terrible the NUS is (can't argue with that), while also trying to climb into positions of power, taking part in internal conferences, etc. all the time. I don't understand it really.


----------



## rekil (Mar 26, 2015)

Balbi said:


> STRAIGHT OUT OF MARXISM
> A CRAZY MOTHERFUCKER CALLED SEYMOUR


Looks like he's laying the smack down on some fools but got stuck looking for something that rhymes with "disgust us" - "Pie crust"?

 

Salvage? Flotsam more like, trotsam even.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)




----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> Looks like he's laying the smack down on some fools but got stuck looking for something that rhymes with "disgust us" - "Pie crust"?
> 
> View attachment 69279
> 
> Salvage? Flotsam more like, trotsam even.


night bus


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 26, 2015)

Ain't no party like a Seymour party.


----------



## rekil (Mar 26, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> night bus


The scott trust.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 26, 2015)

a duckbill platypus


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> Looks like he's laying the smack down on some fools but got stuck looking for something that rhymes with "disgust us" - "Pie crust"?
> 
> View attachment 69279
> 
> Salvage? Flotsam more like, trotsam even.



It doesn't mean anything though does it. 

It is just style emptied of any content; pretended feeling, pretended radicalism, bad bad acting...which ignoring how socially useless it is, also seems personally pretty sad for him.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2015)

Note the desperate 'us'.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 26, 2015)




----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 26, 2015)

BigTom said:


> a duckbill platypus


cyst full of pus


----------



## J Ed (Mar 26, 2015)

So the NUS accuses people who condemn gender segregation by far-right Islamists as waycists/Islamophobes but apparently is now policing who can and cannot wear drag or say 'ohnoyoudidn't? They are so far from the average person in this country that they might as well be in Jonestown


----------



## J Ed (Mar 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> He's a bit of a creep isn't he. Pimpdaddy Dick.
> 
> View attachment 69236



BTW it's interesting that in this exchange Seymour sees himself as the john, rather than the prostitute economically coerced to perform sexual labour. If he was faced with either eviction or giving blowjobs for 20 quid I imagine that he might not be presenting sex work as a choice like any other - like choosing cornflakes or weetabix in Tesco.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 26, 2015)

On facebook London Black Revs posted up a video of Venezuelan police being chased by a gang of right-wing students, calling these students their 'brothers and sisters'. I pointed out that this was what was on the video, and that they were sharing a video from a Venezuelan right-winger. They deleted my comment and banned me from the page. wtf


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> Looks like he's laying the smack down on some fools but got stuck looking for something that rhymes with "disgust us" - "Pie crust"?



NO IFS! NO BUTTS!


----------



## tim (Mar 26, 2015)

fractionMan said:


> fucking hell, that jazz hands thing takes the biscuit.  Are these people real?



Do you really have to use such celiac exclusionary metaphors?

As to the jazz hands thing am I alone in seeing them as a gesture associated most with Al Jonson Singing "Mammy". It's certainly something that leaves me feeling uncomfortable


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2015)

copliker said:


> It looks like Richard Seymour pinched it off PD's bank loan application for the Girder, changed a few words and took out the betting tips.
> 
> He loves his rococo he does.
> 
> View attachment 69014


there is something of the bad punk fanzine about that as well. Don't buy this shit, norm- unless you DARE


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2015)

_Rococo _as highbrow though - that's a new one. It's just overdone shit - like a farmer putting on an illuminated carnival cart.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2015)

like baroques poorer cousin then?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2015)

The mack-daddy/would be john wanking himself off in a car around the corner from _campus _crying as he ain't got the money nor charisma to get what he wants without it - puts his foot down-  _this has gone too far_ he stamps. It's getting far too rococo:



> The thing that bothers me about the decisions of the NUS, however, is that in both cases there is an attempt to resolve these complexities through a kind of identity absolutism.  The premise appears to be that there is an authentic identification rooted in a real, collective lived experience which is being purloined inauthentically by groups who, lacking that experience, do not have a legitimate claim to that identity.  This actually goes against the grain of the current, growing common sense that race and gender are social constructs (whatever social construction is taken to mean) rather than being fixed essences; that balkanised cultures are impossible to sustain, and that hybridisation and fusion are the norm; that identities are not absolute, and are always exceeded by forms of difference - something that those fighting Islamophobia have been compelled to emphasise over and over.  And I would say that this is the better side of the emergent common sense, the side that we should fight to keep


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> cyst full of pus



Give yo mama a cuss.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> On facebook London Black Revs posted up a video of Venezuelan police being chased by a gang of right-wing students, calling these students their 'brothers and sisters'. I pointed out that this was what was on the video, and that they were sharing a video from a Venezuelan right-winger. They deleted my comment and banned me from the page. wtf



You made the mistake of causing them inadvertent public humiliation. For that they will have marked your card as a racist enemy of the class, because revos can be quite childish like that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> NO IFS! NO BUTTS!



Bust rhymes like Jan Smuts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> there is something of the bad punk fanzine about that as well. Don't buy this shit, norm- unless you DARE



Talking of bad punk fanzines, I wonder how trev hagl is getting on?


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Note the desperate 'us'.


I suppose it's technically correct to refer to 3 people gathered round a laptop as 'us'. I'm more puzzled by the 'your'. _Who are they talking to?_


----------



## treelover (Mar 27, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Can't find a list of motions anywhere, just bemusement on various blogs.
> 
> Here is a discussion of the jazz hands thing from one of the originators of the request to stop clapping:
> http://oxfordstudent.com/2015/03/25/jazz-hands-clapping-twitter-trolls-the-unsuccessful-derailing-of-nus-womens-conference/




I remember it appearing at EF gatherings in the late 90's.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2015)

treelover said:


> I remember it appearing at EF gatherings in the late 90's.


and it has spread like a plague from there


----------



## treelover (Mar 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Is it me or is he starting to see himself as some sort of cult leader figure?










He is beginning to look like that actor who played mad cult/coven leaders/ etc in early 70's films, Mike Raven.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> and it has spread like a plague from there



I wonder what else was spread at EF gatherings.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 27, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> derp!



FTFY


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I wonder what else was spread at EF gatherings.


i think we'd know by now if the 'french disease' had been spread there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2015)

tim said:


> As to the jazz hands thing am I alone in seeing them as a gesture associated most with Al Jonson Singing "Mammy". It's certainly something that leaves me feeling uncomfortable


i've never been a fan


----------



## treelover (Mar 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> More than anything else, the NUS has served as a "nursery" for the sort of self-interested, self-obsessed members of the political class who formed the younger cohort of "new Labour". They have little interest in actual confrontational action (remember the NUS wankshaft during the student riots disavowing the riots?), but plenty of interest in posturing and preening.



One of the women in AWL, a former NUS Womens Officer, was pushed down the stairs by Derek Draper, Murphy, Twigg, Fitzsimmons, that cohort really were an unpleasant bunch.


----------



## rekil (Mar 27, 2015)

treelover said:


> He is beginning to look like that actor who played mad cult/coven leaders/ etc in early 70's films, Mike Raven.


Had to nick this. Terrific spot.


----------



## red & green (Mar 28, 2015)

This is what happens when tuition isn't free


----------



## smokedout (Mar 28, 2015)

they don't drink enough or take enough fucking drugs these youngsters, no-one could have maintained this level of vigilence in the olden days.

(I fully accept that jumping around in a field listening to techno whilst off your face was not the viable revolutionary strategy we thought it was at the time, but at least it was fun)


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 30, 2015)

agricola said:


> Has the NUS nationally ever been involved in a great battle, though?



Unfortunately it didn't seize the opportunity given to it by the Young Socilaist Students Society in 2010
http://www.wrp.org.uk/news/5909


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2015)

J Ed said:


> On facebook London Black Revs posted up a video of Venezuelan police being chased by a gang of right-wing students, calling these students their 'brothers and sisters'. I pointed out that this was what was on the video, and that they were sharing a video from a Venezuelan right-winger. They deleted my comment and banned me from the page. wtf



They've also argued that Charlie Hebdo is a racist/fascist publication. I unliked their page in disgust. That showed 'em.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2015)

There is nasty shit in that mix. The remains of the rapists wrp lot have tried to throw in with them.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Mar 31, 2015)

i assumed that the London Black Revs were all young 'uns,  well-meaning but a bit politically naive.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2015)

Does Daniel Hanan count as commentariat?  Anyway, today - in relation to the 75th anniversary of the Katyn massacre -  he said:

*Daniel Hannan*
@DanHannanMEP
"The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must perish in the revolutionary holocaust." Karl Marx, 1856.

Marx actually said _no such thing_ - that's actually a straightforward made up quote - a quote made up by holocaust deniers. Which tells you all you need to know about who Hannan has been swimming with.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 4, 2015)

Galloway's days of rage against twitter continue


----------



## treelover (Apr 4, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Does Daniel Hanan count as commentariat?  Anyway, today - in relation to the 75th anniversary of the Katyn massacre -  he said:
> 
> *Daniel Hannan*
> @DanHannanMEP
> ...





> In _The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon_ (1852), Marx gives this description of the lumpenproletariat:
> 
> Alongside decayed roués with dubious means of subsistence and of dubious origin, alongside ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie, were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mountebanks, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, maquereaux [pimps], brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars — in short, the whole indefinite, disintegrated mass, thrown hither and thither, which the French call _la bohème_.[3]



Its impossible to imagine Marx would say something like that

though he did have a dislike of the 'lumpen'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 5, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Galloway's days of rage against twitter continue


what would he do without his million and one tawdry beefs?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2015)

Seymour's new project - please give generously, because, er, hope is precious. 

This is about hope guys.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/salvage--3


----------



## YouSir (Apr 8, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> Seymour's new project - please give generously, because, er, hope is precious.
> 
> This is about hope guys.
> 
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/salvage--3





> We do not despair, but we are despair-curious.
> 
> Across literary form and theoretical loyalty, obsessed with *politics*, *economics*, *art*and the *(post)(anti)human*, _Salvage_ declares for austere revolutionary pessimism.
> 
> ...



Alternatively, for £50, I'll knock together a pdf in the _Socialist Stone Cladding & Flock Wallpaper_ which will repel everyone and double up as a screwdriver (of agitation!). I'll draw the pictures too.


----------



## kavenism (Apr 8, 2015)

You gets keyringz!!!!


----------



## Bun (Apr 9, 2015)

kavenism said:


> You gets keyringz!!!!


This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a keyring.


----------



## chilango (Apr 9, 2015)

...or he could just join Left Unity which actually seems to be putting his "repellant time capsule of despair" idea into practise.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 9, 2015)

I get it now - they want to be a punk rock band but without playing any instruments. DIckheads.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 9, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I wonder what else was spread at EF gatherings.


humous


----------



## emanymton (Apr 9, 2015)

The worst thing about this crap is it makes the SWP CC look right.


----------



## chilango (Apr 9, 2015)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> humous



I wish.

My memories are of this shit:


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 9, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> Seymour's new project - please give generously, because, er, hope is precious.
> 
> This is about hope guys.
> 
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/salvage--3


This is ripe for a PD offshoot rival project


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 9, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I get it now - they want to be a punk rock band but without playing any instruments. DIckheads.


 I think its between an art project and...I just don't even know anymore. China's involved in this as well, when he should be off writing more bas lag books


----------



## rekil (Apr 9, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I get it now - they want to be a punk rock band but without playing any instruments. DIckheads.


How to Be an 80's Punk



> Fight the stereotype. In the 80s punks had the reputation of being a bit dumb or uneducated, mostly because they were young.
> You, however, are more street smart and wiser about the ways of the world.
> 
> The 2000s are a less innocent time. So fight the stereotype of a dumb punk by reading up on your anarchist literature Twitter and quote Alan Watts throw whorephobia accusations at them until their heads spin. Haters gonna hate, but that doesn't mean you have to embrace the stereotype of the dumb punk.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 9, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I get it now - they want to be a punk rock band but without playing any instruments. DIckheads.



That really is it isn't it? They want to dress up and play at something, the rest is incidental. The Left just has the best dressing up box and the right air of 'cool', if you don't actually really do anything that is. All it needs is for someone to start running a Lib Dem themed club night in Hackney and before long they'd all be dressed up as '90s Paddy Ashdown and reclaiming the Liberal _Laminate Flooring_ instead.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2015)

They should get embedded in the unions then get some money from there. I mean these people all look like they'd have good contacts and reputations.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> They should get embedded in the unions then get some money from there. I mean these people all look like they'd have good contacts and reps.



Look at that site and what *you get* for *your money*! The promise of having your ego publicly stroked...that's it...that's all there is.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## YouSir (Apr 9, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Look at that site and what *you get* for *your money*! The promise of having your ego publicly stroked...that's it...that's all there is.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



And a keyring, don't forget the keyring.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2015)

parker pen cunts


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 9, 2015)

carraige clock when you join proper


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 9, 2015)

and a dirty story dedicated to you


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2015)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> and a dirty story dedicated to you


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 9, 2015)

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY


Spanky Longhorn said:


> and a dirty story dedicated to you


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 9, 2015)

Where's my FREE PARKER PEN, motherfuckers?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 9, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> carraige clock when you join proper



Icepick through the skull when you try to leave.


----------



## kavenism (Apr 9, 2015)

I am the only one longing for the halcyon days of Cactus?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 13, 2015)

From facebook...



> *London Black Revs*
> 7 hrs ·
> 
> 
> ...



So the dickhead that runs the LBR acccount posts on Urban... can we have a witchhunt please?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 16, 2015)

J Ed said:


> From facebook...
> 
> 
> 
> So the dickhead that runs the LBR acccount posts on Urban... can we have a witchhunt please?



Why? Misguided for sure, lame liberal intersectionalism that borders on being reactionary at times, but why would a witch-hunt be necessary? I mean, i haven't seen the person who runs the LBR account post anything dodgy. Then again i was banned, so...


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2015)

Obligatory attempt at patronising election time guff from LP in the NS if anyone can be bothered.


> I’ve watched the Tories trash the welfare state, tear up the social contract and send in the riot squads to round up and beat down any person who dared to voice their dissent without filling in a form and shuffling politely into line. I’ve watched the Liberal Democrats roll over and let them do it.


Who else goes on about the precious non-existent "social contract" apart from randroid loons? 


> I have lived on the same anxious, bitter clutch of islands where you have lived for the past five years.


Bit of a lie this unless all that time in America doesn't count.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 20, 2015)

copliker said:


> Obligatory attempt at patronising election time guff from LP in the NS if anyone can be bothered.
> 
> Who else goes on about the precious non-existent "social contract" apart from randroid loons?
> 
> Bit of a lie this unless all that time in America doesn't count.



Nothing new about Penny Dreadful being a serial liar and fantasist.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2015)




----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2015)

LP's chum milo yiannopoulos was on skynews a few mins ago. None more smarmy. Women are bog average and men are gr8 apparently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2015)

Sam Ambreen said:


> I'd really appreciate if people wouldn't link me to discussions on rape before asking me first.


i'd really appreciate it if people wouldn't link to sam ambreen at all.


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 22, 2015)

She should be linked to a large boulder 3 miles from the nearest computer .


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 25, 2015)

Salvage has now raised over 10k.


----------



## rekil (Apr 25, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Salvage has now raised over 10k.


 

He wants some new mixed metaphors.


----------



## JimW (Apr 25, 2015)

copliker said:


> View attachment 70725
> 
> He wants some new mixed metaphors.


He wants to realise that assembling a gaggle of gobshites does not a liberation make.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

copliker said:


> View attachment 70725
> 
> He wants some new mixed metaphors.



He wants to stop fondling little SEYMOUR!


----------



## rekil (Apr 25, 2015)

JimW said:


> He wants to realise that assembling a gaggle of gobshites does not a liberation make.


You pathetic somnambulant normals just can't handle SHOCKING articles like "Marxism For WHORES"


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 25, 2015)

That fucking beard.


----------



## inva (Apr 25, 2015)

who on earth gave them money


----------



## YouSir (Apr 25, 2015)

inva said:


> who on earth gave them money



Me, I gave them £10k and they promised I could be Lenin. Big Rich has already bagsied Stalin mind and so far no one's volunteered to be a hostage or a mercenary.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2015)

YouSir said:


> Me, I gave them £10k and they promised I could be Lenin. Big Rich has already bagsied Stalin mind and so far no one's volunteered to be a hostage or a mercenary.


I've gotfirst dibs on being beria


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 26, 2015)

Don't these people know that the Sixties were fifty years ago?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

inva said:


> who on earth gave them money



The state?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The state?



"Congress for Sexual Freedom" - best CIA front ever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> "Congress for Sexual Freedom" - best CIA front ever.



And the best out of so many, too!


----------



## Theisticle (Apr 26, 2015)

Hah, gets called out on Twitter. 'Sorry, I've been to busy to read news and tweet'. Her TL doesn't seem anything but inactive.


----------



## dendrite (May 8, 2015)




----------



## Theisticle (May 9, 2015)

Would Laurie make this up?



List is here. Not sure how to verify. http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/women_gcs.htm


----------



## Plumdaff (May 9, 2015)

Maltese, innit. So did half my family. Kind of. I'd never actually put it that way.


----------



## Theisticle (May 9, 2015)

None of whom were born in Malta. Hah.


----------



## rekil (May 9, 2015)

Probably mixing up a service medal with the george cross that was awarded to the island. 

I was more triggered by the needy NS post election gibberish.

"We can take a few days to drink cold tea and listen to Billy Bragg’s saddest albums."


----------



## Theisticle (May 9, 2015)

Good lord:

"The politics of the modern right are the politics of depression, and right now they are winning. What remains of the British left is flat on its back, staring at the ceiling in a mess of unwashed sheets, and shouting at it to get up is not going to help right now.

I’m not about to tell you to just buck up. I’m not advocating enforced blissed-outedness like a sort of fascist Gwyneth Paltrow. Some of my best friends are hippies, and I like yoga and meditation and suspicious smoothies as much as the next bourgeois lefty throwback, but downward-facing-dog is not a radical position, and that’s not what this is about."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ulation-hard-govern-depressed-population-easy


----------



## Plumdaff (May 9, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> None of whom were born in Malta. Hah.


Eh?

Eta Ok, understand you now.


----------



## BigTom (May 10, 2015)

copliker said:


> Probably mixing up a service medal with the george cross that was awarded to the island.
> 
> I was more triggered by the needy NS post election gibberish.
> 
> "We can take a few days to drink cold tea and listen to Billy Bragg’s saddest albums."


Typically awful article from her. "Politics of despair" fuck off, that's the mirror of the "Politics of envy" that rw commentators prattle on about. 

Only thing she's got right in that is that the opposite of depression is action, not happiness.

All her other bits just don't ring with my personal experience of depression (though I'm fairly sure she had suffered depression herself, everyone is different) and the comparison/analogy/whatever to politics is just wrong, and action for actions sake is not good either in depression or politics. Sometimes you need to stop and think.


----------



## BigTom (May 10, 2015)

Oh, and she reckons the lib dems were a moderating influence


----------



## frogwoman (May 10, 2015)

A worrying number of people do think that tbh.


----------



## J Ed (May 10, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> A worrying number of people do think that tbh.



As an aside, I have suspected for a while that there has been an astroturf campaign by Lib Dems on forums like mumsnet and reddit to create that impression.


----------



## frogwoman (May 10, 2015)

My sisters boyfriend voted lib dem.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 10, 2015)

I assume anyone who won't admit who they voted for in 2010 voted libscum

harsh of me, but I'm probably 50/50 right


----------



## CNT36 (May 10, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I assume anyone who won't admit who they voted for in 2010 voted libscum
> 
> harsh of me, but I'm probably 50/50 right


You're definitely right like some of the time.


----------



## Bakunin (May 10, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Would Laurie make this up?
> 
> 
> 
> List is here. Not sure how to verify. http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/women_gcs.htm




Why not tweet her and ask?


----------



## J Ed (May 10, 2015)

Regardless of the medal thing, I don't really care about it one way or another and it's just another example of her making everything about her to boost her brand, I sort of agree with the general sentiment. Whoever defaced the memorial is obviously an idiot or an agent provocateur but at the end of the day it's a memorial which can be scrubbed and put back as it should be. What cannot be put right ever is the loss of the thousands who have died because our government believes that wealth transfer from the poorest to the richest is more important than the lives of the most vulnerable in society. You also cannot just make right the long term effects of malnutrition on children, those are permanent. How many of those who are aiming their violent vitriol at Laurie Penny are upset and offended by that? Not many I bet. I think that they are cheering it on.


----------



## rekil (May 10, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Typically awful article from her. "Politics of despair" fuck off, that's the mirror of the "Politics of envy" that rw commentators prattle on about.
> 
> Only thing she's got right in that is that the opposite of depression is action, not happiness.
> 
> All her other bits just don't ring with my personal experience of depression (though I'm fairly sure she had suffered depression herself, everyone is different) and the comparison/analogy/whatever to politics is just wrong, and action for actions sake is not good either in depression or politics. Sometimes you need to stop and think.


I predict that she'll bounce back in a few days and return to banging on about parties and ambition and lashings of fab rich'n'famous chum banter. This zinger is all the better, coming as it does, direct from a cloistered brandbuilding self styled nerd in Harvard of all places, who struggles to come up with a pop culture reference other than billy fecking bragg


> ...so many decisions about your life are being made without your input, by people whose interests are so alien to your own they may as well be on a slab in a base in New Mexico.


The accompanying pic of a white clenched fist is intensely problematic as well.


----------



## rekil (May 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Regardless of the medal thing, I don't really care about it one way or another and it's just another example of her making everything about her to boost her brand, I sort of agree with the general sentiment. Whoever defaced the memorial is obviously an idiot or an agent provocateur but at the end of the day it's a memorial which can be scrubbed and put back as it should be. What cannot be put right ever is the loss of the thousands who have died because our government believes that wealth transfer from the poorest to the richest is more important than the lives of the most vulnerable in society. You also cannot just make right the long term effects of malnutrition on children, those are permanent. How many of those who are aiming their violent vitriol at Laurie Penny are upset and offended by that? Not many I bet. I think that they are cheering it on.


It's ok to deface red army war memorials so unless it was a cop, they should've done the tag in Ukrainian colours or something.


----------



## rekil (May 10, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I assume anyone who won't admit who they voted for in 2010 voted libscum
> 
> harsh of me, but I'm probably 50/50 right


LibDem in 2010. Tory now probably.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 10, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Oh, and she reckons the lib dems were a moderating influence



She's not on her own:

http://i100.independent.co.uk/artic...s-stopped-the-tories-from-passing--gkKwqOshgb

The REAL victims of this election.

_Oh, Nick._


----------



## rekil (May 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Regardless of the medal thing, I don't really care about it one way or another and it's just another example of her making everything about her to boost her brand, I sort of agree with the general sentiment. Whoever defaced the memorial is obviously an idiot or an agent provocateur but at the end of the day it's a memorial which can be scrubbed and put back as it should be. What cannot be put right ever is the loss of the thousands who have died because our government believes that wealth transfer from the poorest to the richest is more important than the lives of the most vulnerable in society. You also cannot just make right the long term effects of malnutrition on children, those are permanent. How many of those who are aiming their violent vitriol at Laurie Penny are upset and offended by that? Not many I bet. I think that they are cheering it on.


The Drunken Bakers guys said it somewhat better.


----------



## BigTom (May 10, 2015)

S☼I said:


> She's not on her own:
> 
> http://i100.independent.co.uk/artic...s-stopped-the-tories-from-passing--gkKwqOshgb
> 
> ...



It's the only way that they can square the cognitive dissonance of being politically astute/correct/etc, and them voting lib dem in 2010... _yeah the coalition was shit but imagine how bad it would have been if I hadn't voted lib dem!_


----------



## rekil (May 11, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Oh, and she reckons the lib dems were a moderating influence


She did a sad cos darling Vince is off to sign on, sip cold tea and listen to Bragg. Hang in there hun.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (May 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> She did a sad cos darling Vince is off to sign on, sip cold tea and listen to Bragg. Hang in there hun.
> 
> View attachment 71365


Oh dear, she really is out of touch. Perhaps she should stay in America when her course finishes, nothing to say to us here in the UK.


----------



## J Ed (May 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> She did a sad cos darling Vince is off to sign on, sip cold tea and listen to Bragg. Hang in there hun.
> 
> View attachment 71365



What a fucking idiot. 

Privatising the NHS is a little bit com... I can't even do this, she is just a fucking idiot insulated from the world and any critical thought by her private education and the privately educated. JUST FUCK OFF.


----------



## CNT36 (May 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> She did a sad cos darling Vince is off to sign on, sip cold tea and listen to Bragg. Hang in there hun.
> 
> View attachment 71365


Do the electorate even care that they might make her a little sad? Cunts.


----------



## J Ed (May 11, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> Do the electorate even care that they might make her a little sad? Cunts.



Don't they care about his moderating influence of killing the poor and privatising the royal mail _nicely_?


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> She did a sad cos darling Vince is off to sign on, sip cold tea and listen to Bragg. Hang in there hun.



Could have done with a TW (Twickenham Warning) there


----------



## DotCommunist (May 11, 2015)

Vince Cable who signed of the tuition fee hike? There speaks a woman whose never had to pay for her eductaion.


----------



## rekil (May 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Vince Cable who signed of the tuition fee hike? There speaks a woman whose never had to pay for her eductaion.


Mehdi Hasan on Cable in LP's own shitty mag a few years ago.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 11, 2015)

I wondered what Owen Jones would have to say on the matter- and lo, he has written.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...arish-election-result-politics-of-hope-needed

not truly awful, politics of hope line in there, thats going to become a commenteriat power-phrase i recon


----------



## BigTom (May 11, 2015)

politics of hope vs politics of despair


----------



## rekil (May 11, 2015)

I watched this rubbish last night. They all need to fuck off. Especially Toynbee.



PD might issue a why the left lost listicle. 

1: Billy Bragg wasting revolutionary energy trying to shut down the skatepark
2: SEX chair row
3: Voice of youth in exile
etc


----------



## frogwoman (May 11, 2015)

Just seen the guardian say gove is a fine choice as the justice secretary. Wtf


----------



## killer b (May 11, 2015)

He's a fine choice as far as the tories are concerned.


----------



## ska invita (May 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> I watched this rubbish last night. They all need to fuck off. Especially Toynbee.


the whole thing?  why in gods name?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 11, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Just seen the guardian say gove is a fine choice as the justice secretary. Wtf


he is a through and through torybot. The sort who'd worsen conditions in a jail then welcome the subsequent rioting cos he gets to look tough crushing them with some bull necked tornado-trained special screw squad


----------



## agricola (May 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> he is a through and through torybot. The sort who'd worsen conditions in a jail then welcome the subsequent rioting cos he gets to look tough crushing them with some bull necked tornado-trained special screw squad



We are talking about someone who as Tory Chief Whip managed in a bit more than a year to make double the number of UKIP MPs than UKIP have been able to in a decade, though.  Someone who, (edit) the Guardian claims in a Times piece calling for the return of the death penalty, said that:



> “Were I ever alone in the dock I would not want to be arraigned before our flawed tribunals, knowing my freedom could be forfeit as a result of political pressures. I would prefer a fair trial, under the shadow of the noose.”



Gove is unique - indeed placing him in charge of repealing the Human Rights Act is probably the best guarantee of retaining and extending it that there is.


----------



## two sheds (May 11, 2015)

agricola said:


> > I would prefer a fair trial, under the shadow of the noose.



Tbf I think a lot of people would like him to have a fair trial under the shadow of the noose.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 11, 2015)

I'd be happier with a show trial- someone of his class and reach would get an easy ride from bourgois justice


----------



## two sheds (May 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd be happier with a show trial- someone of his class and reach would get an easy ride from bourgois justice



well exactly hence 'fair' trial


----------



## killer b (May 11, 2015)

agricola said:


> Gove is unique - indeed placing him in charge of repealing the Human Rights Act is probably the best guarantee of retaining and extending it that there is.


He was massively successful in pushing through their agenda in education. You underestimate him.


----------



## rekil (May 11, 2015)

ska invita said:


> the whole thing?  why in gods name?


With drink involved, it was strangely compulsive.


----------



## ska invita (May 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> With drink involved, it was strangely compulsive.


ive become tempted


----------



## Hocus Eye. (May 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> He was massively successful in pushing through their agenda in education. You underestimate him.


 He was relieved of  that post after bringing down the wrath of the teaching profession on his head.


----------



## killer b (May 11, 2015)

So? Making the radical changes he made to education was bound to do that. Their wrath has - unfortunately - done nothing to stop them. He was parked briefly for political expediency, nothing more.

He's the most capable & ruthless member of the cabinet - presumably he's been given justice because repealing the human rights act promises to be a clusterfuck, and they need their most capable & ruthless member to push it through.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> He was massively successful in pushing through their agenda in education. You underestimate him.



Yup. He's a believer - an ideologue who'll do whatever is necessary to realise his vision. He's an ideological zealot in the same way that Iain Dunked-in Shit is a religious zealot. No criticism touches him because he *knows* he is *right*.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2015)

Hocus Eye. said:


> He was relieved of  that post after bringing down the wrath of the teaching profession on his head.



Tactics. He was replaced by an emollient successor who did absolutely nothing to halt or even slow Gove's "reforms".


----------



## Bakunin (May 12, 2015)

Ouch.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3077499/Laurie-Penny-said-grandmother-won-George-Cross.html


----------



## CNT36 (May 12, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Ouch.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3077499/Laurie-Penny-said-grandmother-won-George-Cross.html


And only yesterday the Mail were reporting it as fact 





> She was educated at some of Britain's finest academic institutions where she was taught about the sacrifices of the wartime generation. *Her grandmother was even awarded the George Cross for her services in the Second World War*.
> 
> Despite this, Left-wing writer Laurie Penny defended the vandal who sprayed 'F*** Tory Scum' in red paint on a memorial honouring the women who served in the war.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bakunin (May 12, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> And only yesterday the Mail were reporting it as fact



Penny Dreadful versus the DM. Sounds like a fight where I'd happily watch both sides bash away at each other all day.

Poor fact-checking, smears, whinging about their critics and generally giving journalism a bad name are common ground for them, after all.


----------



## rekil (May 12, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Ouch.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3077499/Laurie-Penny-said-grandmother-won-George-Cross.html


"Poster girl for the Left". PersonalBrand++. It's a nothing story about her getting mixed up. But this sort of nonsense suggests that if there are regular boisterous anti-tory protests, they'll go after people, pick them from the crowd, dig up what they can and generally make life a bit shitty.


----------



## Bakunin (May 12, 2015)

copliker said:


> "Poster girl for the Left". PersonalBrand++. It's a nothing story about her getting mixed up. But this sort of nonsense suggests that if there are regular boisterous anti-tory protests, they'll go after people, pick them from the crowd, dig up what they can and generally make life a bit shitty.



Nothing unusual about some elements of the Press doing that, though.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 12, 2015)

BigTom said:


> politics of hope vs politics of despair


Nope.


----------



## BigTom (May 12, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Nope.


----------



## J Ed (May 13, 2015)

On the use of intersectionality by right-wing US Democrats against leftists



> Manarchist, dudebro …. These are terms that are typically employed as a cudgel against the left by centrist Democrats. They argue for dismissing a particular political argument by presuming that a certain set of people makes that political argument. Which, whatever: a majority of the socialists I’ve known in my life have not been white men, and I’ve known thousands, but who cares, right. The bigger question at this point is what any of that has to do with a guy using Emmett Till’s memory to wage political warfare over a trade agreement. What does manarchism or brocialism or whatever have to do with that ugly comment? Who knows? It doesn’t matter: Bauer knows that those are magic words. He understands how today’s progressive internet works. He understands critique drift. He knows that whatever complaints about him can simply be filtered through third-hand appropriated feminism. Because that’s how we do things, now.
> 
> What all of this descended into, as was inevitable, was a White Off. A White Off is a peculiar 21st-century phenomenon where white progressives try to prove that the other white progressives they’re arguing with are The Real Whites. It’s a contest in shamelessness: who can be more brazen in reducing race to a pure argumentative cudgel? Who feels less guilt about using the fight against racism as a way to elevate oneself in a social hierarchy? Which white person will be the first to pull out “white” as a pejorative in a way that demonstrates the toothlessness of the concept? Within progressivism today, there is an absolute lack of shame or self-criticism about reducing racial discourse to a matter of straightforward personal branding and social signaling. It turns my stomach.



Expect more and more of this


----------



## rekil (May 13, 2015)

> Thanks, everyone. It's been a nasty few days but I have tea and books and good friends and ultimately, no power in the 'verse can stop me.


2 booj 2 fail. Suck it up losers.

Brave Helen Lewis saying what everyone else is thinking. 

"Do you miss the Lib Dems yet? Don't worry, you will"



> The Lib Dems are now tending to the fallen, with defeated candidates getting calls from the top brass. They plan to rebuild, as they have before, from the local level and draw hope from the way in which 10,000 masochists have joined the party since the election. But they are doubly sad, mourning both their annihilation and what that means for Britain. As one says: “There’s no satisfaction in watching the working poor being penalised to prove us right.


----------



## JimW (May 13, 2015)

It much easier to miss the Lib Dems now there's so few to aim at.


----------



## J Ed (May 13, 2015)

I wish Helen Lewis would fuck off along with them. Oxbridge political class piece of shit.


----------



## J Ed (May 13, 2015)

Where the fuck is this narrative coming from that somehow the Lib Dems were a moderating influence on the Tory-Lib Dem assault on the poor? They backed the welfare persecutions, persecution of the disabled, universal credit, free schools, further privatisation of the NHS and contributed to and supported the scrounger rhetoric which has led to an atmosphere in which thousands have died. Yet now they want to act as if they were against all of this and idiots  like Helen Lewis fall for it, probably because they are so far removed fro any of this and so rich they are probably in the small minority that actually benefit financially from the Tories.


----------



## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Where the fuck is this narrative coming from that somehow the Lib Dems were a moderating influence on the Tory-Lib Dem assault on the poor? They backed the welfare persecutions, persecution of the disabled, universal credit, free schools, further privatisation of the NHS and contributed to and supported the scrounger rhetoric which has led to an atmosphere in which thousands have died. Yet now they want to act as if they were against all of this and idiots  like Helen Lewis fall for it, probably because they are so far removed fro any of this and so rich they are probably in the small minority that actually benefit financially from the Tories.


Quite.
Though Lewis appears to take a more proactive role in propagating the myth than you suggest by characterising her position of one of gullibility. She presumes to _know_ the outcome of some imagined negotiations, and what effect the LDs _*would*_ have had on specific policy areas....had they been in a position to enter another coalition with their fellow vermin...



> _There are many other items on the agenda that *the Lib Dems would have blocked*: draconian anti-terror powers, hacking lumps out of the BBC, reviving the “snooper’s charter” and the £12bn of benefit cuts._


Jackanory.


----------



## captainmission (May 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Expect more and more of this



You mean like this?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Where the fuck is this narrative coming from that somehow the Lib Dems were a moderating influence on the Tory-Lib Dem assault on the poor?



The narrative has been under construction since May 2010, when the Lib-Dem cheerleaders and wonks realised that they'd have to try and discursively "square the circle" of Lib-Dem actions measured against Lib-Dem public pronouncements.



> They backed the welfare persecutions, persecution of the disabled, universal credit, free schools, further privatisation of the NHS and contributed to and supported the scrounger rhetoric which has led to an atmosphere in which thousands have died. Yet now they want to act as if they were against all of this and idiots  like Helen Lewis fall for it, probably because they are so far removed fro any of this and so rich they are probably in the small minority that actually benefit financially from the Tories.



Lewis hasn't fallen for anything. Her politics (left liberal) mean that she buys into the narrative because it benefits her to do so. She's no dupe.


----------



## weepiper (May 13, 2015)

BigTom said:


> politics of hope vs politics of despair


----------



## BigTom (May 14, 2015)

awesome


----------



## CNT36 (May 14, 2015)

> As one says: “There’s no satisfaction in watching the *working *poor being penalised to prove us right.



Still cunts then.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 14, 2015)

captainmission said:


> You mean like this?



So where did this piece of shit come from?


----------



## captainmission (May 14, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> So where did this piece of shit come from?



From a now defunct right wing blog. I saw it on a blog by Jack Halberstam, which is a rather good critique of trigger warnings


----------



## J Ed (May 17, 2015)

Not really sure where to put this so here is as good as anywhere I suppose.

Pink-washing the arm of the intelligence services which would make the Stasi blush

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-32753794



> The GCHQ "doughnut" building in Cheltenham is to be lit up in rainbow colours as a symbol of the intelligence agency's commitment to diversity.
> It will take place later, to mark International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia.



We'll illegally spy on you, collect all of your data, collect pictures of your kids and you naked and pass them around as a fringe benefit then get our mates to intimidate the media into not reporting any of this while we get MPs to make it retrospectively legal but hey look some of us are gay so it's alright.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 17, 2015)

I like how they nickname it 'the big ear', all friendly like. Ministry of Caring Listening. Safe under the watchful eyes


----------



## rekil (May 17, 2015)

.


copliker said:


> I predict that she'll bounce back in a few days and return to banging on about parties and ambition and lashings of fab rich'n'famous chum banter.


Normal service has been resumed.


----------



## CNT36 (May 17, 2015)

copliker said:


> .
> 
> Normal service has been resumed.



She's marking people on self-awareness now? What's her name again?


----------



## captainmission (May 20, 2015)

Caroline Criado-Perez on why we should be celebrating the election results. It's in the big issue - so all those newly homeless women turfed out their home's by the benefit cap can celebrate this great step forward.



> It is much harder for men private school and oxbridge scions of multi-millioaire ceo's to be able to see sexism, because it simply doesn’t affect them


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 20, 2015)

captainmission said:


> Caroline Criado-Perez on why we should be celebrating the election results. It's in the big issue - so all those newly homeless women turfed out their home's by the benefit cap can celebrate this great step forward.



Good fucking Christ.


----------



## butchersapron (May 20, 2015)

captainmission said:


> Caroline Criado-Perez on why we should be celebrating the election results. It's in the big issue - so all those newly homeless women turfed out their home's by the benefit cap can celebrate this great step forward.



_Bliss was it in that dawn to be crushed alive,
But to be living in a bin was very heaven!_

Four Die Sleeping In Bins



> Waste collection firm Biffa also revealed yesterday that its crews had reported finding 93 people sleeping in their bins in the last year.


----------



## frogwoman (May 20, 2015)




----------



## J Ed (May 20, 2015)




----------



## equationgirl (May 20, 2015)

I have no words on how horribly sad that is.


----------



## frogwoman (May 20, 2015)

Ive been wanting to do a marxist critique of her kind of feminism for ages now but im not sure how without sounding like a cunt.


----------



## weepiper (May 20, 2015)

> Female representation matters for women. You don’t have to agree with the woman’s politics. You don’t even have to like her. But her presence will nevertheless aid women in their aspirations, self-confidence, and achievements.



48 female Tory MPs and 7 Lib Dem MPs in the last Parliament

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oalitions-tax-and-benefit-tweaks-9907143.html

Pardon me for thinking 'fuck the fuck off'. Can we deal with the roof over me and my kids' heads and the food in their bellies and the shoes on their feet before we deal with my self-confidence and achievements


----------



## comrade spurski (May 20, 2015)

Presumably Thatcher being elected as PM was a golden time for women being able to celebrate their achievements and develop their self belief!

Shame the wives who set up and ran the miners support groups, the women of Greenham Common, the women fighting health service cuts in NUPE and millions of others didn't understand this important fact like this great feminist mind of today does.


----------



## rekil (May 20, 2015)

captainmission said:


> Caroline Criado-Perez on why we should be celebrating the election results. It's in the big issue - so all those newly homeless women turfed out their home's by the benefit cap can celebrate this great step forward.





Spoiler: First Female Dictator Hailed As Step Forward For Women


----------



## Libertad (May 20, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> _Bliss was it in that dawn to be crushed alive,
> But to be living in a bin was very heaven!_
> 
> Four Die Sleeping In Bins



That's fucking terrible. In the past I've had to sleep in those bins outside industrial units because that's where the cleanest cardboard and bubblewrap used to be. Poor bastards.


----------



## chilango (May 21, 2015)

Rod Liddle's column about the Goldsmiths row and intersectionalist in The Sun today is a curious read. Seems entirely cribbed from here.

So, presuming you're still around "researching" Rod, I thought you might want to know that your Clarkson-lite schtick isn't fooling anyone. Your writing still reeks of the smug liberalism of the metropolitan elite.

...and you're welcome to quote me on that.


----------



## krink (May 21, 2015)

And I'd just like to say you're a cunt, Rod.


----------



## phildwyer (May 21, 2015)

chilango said:


> Rod Liddle's column about the Goldsmiths row and intersectionalist in The Sun today is a curious read. Seems entirely cribbed from here.


 
Wouldn't be the first time.  The _New Statesman _is worse though.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2015)

krink said:


> And I'd just like to say you're a cunt, Rod.


you're too kind to him


----------



## cesare (May 22, 2015)

chilango said:


> Rod Liddle's column about the Goldsmiths row and intersectionalist in The Sun today is a curious read. Seems entirely cribbed from here.
> 
> So, presuming you're still around "researching" Rod, I thought you might want to know that your Clarkson-lite schtick isn't fooling anyone. Your writing still reeks of the smug liberalism of the metropolitan elite.
> 
> ...and you're welcome to quote me on that.


Where's this article then? I want to read it.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2015)

cesare said:


> Where's this article then? I want to read it.


Googled and found this http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/may/22/selfish-whining-monkeys-rod-liddle-review from a year ago today 



> Liddle is a typical petit bourgeois, afraid of either being absorbed into the proletariat he champions, or destroyed by the capitalist bogeyman he excoriates but depends on for his wonga. The cultural cringing of the squeezed intellectual middle is creased into every line of this baggy diatribe, in the form of scores of French loan words, pasquinades poorly aimed at intellectuals he regards as pretentious, and of course that plethora of fucks.


----------



## rekil (May 22, 2015)

cesare said:


> Where's this article then? I want to read it.


It's in the super soaraway Sun, paywalled, which is probably for the best.


----------



## cesare (May 22, 2015)

copliker said:


> It's in the super soaraway Sun, paywalled, which is probably for the best.


I'm not paying for it


----------



## Orang Utan (May 22, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Charlie Brooker once said that Rod Liddle looked like 'a failed Womble who's just been shaken awake in a shop doorway'


Time for a repeat of the above quote


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2015)

cesare said:


> Where's this article then? I want to read it.



The cafe I stop in for a mug of tea (and occasional sausage sandwich when I'm supposed to be in the gym, shhh) stocks The Sun. I'd persuade them not to but it's useful to read it from time to time....


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2015)

irishtimes said:
			
		

> Geography, in contrast, was a decent paper. You needed to know your stuff, but there was nothing engineered to make you cry.
> The option question, the big one that everyone worries about, was actually quite nice. The subject of racial and ethnic mixing was a happy question for all of us who do geography in Adamstown. There are 60 different nationalities in this school and we all get on famously.


Dunno what the actual question was but what's going on in Adamstown? Imagine the carnage if intersectionalistas were let loose there. "Ok class, we have a treat for you today. Please welcome our special guests Richard Seymour of sex chair fiasco fame, Stavvers from twitter and Laurie Penny from Brighton College, Oxford, and Harvard; all places which might as well be the fecking moon for the likes of you..."

Looks like there's some serious whitesplaining going on here. 





> Some of the boys wear their uniform with long hair and beards


Beards.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2015)




----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2015)

Nick Cohen got hundreds of RTs out of that. "Everything that's wrong with the British Left "


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2015)

That's almost as stupid.


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2015)

He is a terrible terrible cunt.


----------



## killer b (Jun 6, 2015)

I watched that 'we are many' doc the other night. It was pretty awful, but always good to be reminded what a truly disgusting human tony Blair is.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 7, 2015)

killer b said:


> I watched that 'we are many' doc the other night. It was pretty awful, but always good to be reminded what a truly disgusting human tony Blair is.


In what ways was it awful?


----------



## killer b (Jun 8, 2015)

emanymton said:


> In what ways was it awful?


Just felt a bit pointless I suppose - there was an air of it wanting to be some kind of celebration of triumph over adversity, which didn't really work considering what happened. I suppose the weird tenuous connection it tried to make with the arab spring was attempting to create and uplifting finish... That bit about Richard Branson's last minute mercy flight with Nelson Mandela was just fucking laughable. John Rees weeping, Damon Albarn... the whole thing was a mess.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2015)

As big a mess as this?


----------



## rekil (Jun 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> As big a mess as this?


Barry Mainwaring has chipped in with a helpful suggestion.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 9, 2015)

18 hours a day? You're doing it wrong, Seymour.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> As big a mess as this?


Is he having some sort of breakdown?


----------



## emanymton (Jun 9, 2015)

killer b said:


> Just felt a bit pointless I suppose - there was an air of it wanting to be some kind of celebration of triumph over adversity, which didn't really work considering what happened. I suppose the weird tenuous connection it tried to make with the arab spring was attempting to create and uplifting finish... That bit about Richard Branson's last minute mercy flight with Nelson Mandela was just fucking laughable. John Rees weeping, Damon Albarn... the whole thing was a mess.


Wow, fucking Branson.

Still you got to see Rees cry so not a total loss.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 9, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Is he having some sort of breakdown?


its the bad punk fanzine 'salvage marxism' style he seems to have hit upon


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2015)

Oh god.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/06/09/the-secret-to-putin-its-all-right-on-his-face/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Oh god.
> 
> http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/06/09/the-secret-to-putin-its-all-right-on-his-face/



That  really is a very badly written piece of crap.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 12, 2015)

http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/flakes-alive/

"The real comedy comes from panels like Dangerous Scapegoating of Islam: Exacerbated by the Left’s Silence About Controlled Demolition on 9/11. I counted this as one of three Truther panels this year, but these guys clearly had the best angle: Only a _racist_ would believe jet fuel can melt steel beams!"


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 12, 2015)

http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/flakes-alive/

The US Left Forum, paradise of cranks.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 12, 2015)

Is this the right thread for this?



> Caroline Criado-Perez - journalist. For services to equality and diversity.



That's Caroline Criado-Perez OBE, now.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 13, 2015)

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=65f92d6a1356676b15f8ee74eccdf664&oe=562D4534

This pic was in response to anarchists and anti fash driving neo nazis out of a town and preventing them from marching btw. butchersapron


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=65f92d6a1356676b15f8ee74eccdf664&oe=562D4534
> 
> This pic was in response to anarchists and anti fash driving neo nazis out of a town and preventing them from marching btw. butchersapron



I've ran into this sort of thing before... doing anything but a simple A to B march behind coppers is misogynistic cos violence is just for men


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2015)

_Violence is for everyone.
_
I feel a range of prol-dem greetings cards coming on.


----------



## rekil (Jun 14, 2015)

Good to see the Dublin hitman community embracing intersectionality.



> Locals at the scene suggested the gunman was dressed in women’s clothing when he approached the men and opened fire using an automatic weapon.



Not so good that they're bagging the wrong people.



> Gardaí believe he was not the killer’s target but was fatally wounded in a case of mistaken identity. He was shot in the head.



I can't remember who it was on here that suggested that the state should just let the gangs shoot it out but this latest case of innocent people being killed illustrates why that's not a particularly helpful solution.


----------



## rekil (Jun 14, 2015)

I was at the Cervantes institute during the week (doing activism) and 3 or 4 Bolivian child miners appeared from nowhere, pressed a flash drive into my hand, whispered '¡Viva Posadas!' and then vanished. The contents turned out to be #inspiring.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2015)

That 'we' and the cut to the harman and the african clothes woman and made even better by the sheer illogical banality of her ten to one percent (wtf is ten toone percent?).

Great work.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 14, 2015)

Muy buen.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2015)

Good work on nailing watson too.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 14, 2015)

Kudos on the video.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2015)

Cracking work again copliker please pass on my salutations to the Bolivian child miners on their sterling efforts.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 15, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> _Violence is for everyone.
> _
> I feel a range of prol-dem greetings cards coming on.



Something like this?


----------



## Blagsta (Jun 15, 2015)

although it looks like prole dem hammer man is about to bash her on the back of her head


----------



## JimW (Jun 15, 2015)

He's pointing out the targets, sinister left-wing string pullers and their rent-a-mob.


----------



## rekil (Jun 15, 2015)

Even worse it looks like he's mansplaining. "Not the door, hit the WINDOW ffs!"


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 15, 2015)

The bluey coat cop.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 15, 2015)

lol, I just auto-branded it, tbf would actually be better without the logo. I was just worrying that cismales/christmas was a pun too far. Which it probably is.


----------



## rekil (Jun 15, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Cracking work again copliker please pass on my salutations to the Bolivian child miners on their sterling efforts.


I'll leave a #solidarity note in the cervantes institute. For those not au fait with forrin, the tune is young (18 I think when it was recorded) Chilean rapper Belona MC's Hija Del Fuego (Daughter Of Fire - LP routinely bangs on about things on fire being great). Has anyone put it on the twitter machine?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 15, 2015)

RetuRn the hammer!


----------



## rekil (Jun 15, 2015)

chilango was kind enough to design a new genderneutral logo - time to unveil it.


----------



## JimW (Jun 15, 2015)

That's nothing, I've shown our multitudinous positionism by nicking this stock image off the Internet:


----------



## BigTom (Jun 15, 2015)

I did nearly put it on the image actually.. but didn't know if I should use it.. so here it is in situ.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 15, 2015)

JimW said:


> That's nothing, I've shown our multitudinous positionism by nicking this stock image off the Internet:



Awesome logo to be stolen for our next united front, setup to support the sparkies in their struggle, now expanded across all construction workers. Obviously need to change the colour and apparent gender of those hands, perhaps have one with a visible disability, maybe some rings or something to display other oppressions that can't be conveyed by a hand/arm, Campaign For Intersectional Construction or something with a better acronym. Or just turned red and black and used for anything.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2015)

Que chido guey.

Good work cbbes.


----------



## chilango (Jun 17, 2015)

Mick Hume oh so predictably defending that bloke who made those comments about women in science in today's Sun. How wearisome. Funnily enough The Sun must have forgotten to dredge up Hume's "hard left" past as it would normally do. Cosy.


----------



## rekil (Jun 17, 2015)

Helen Lewis on form. The banality of evil right there.

 

 

Refugees drowning in their thousands is getting a bit yawnsome as well I imagine.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 18, 2015)

If she finds Iraq such a boring topic then maybe she can be sent there to help re-invigorate her interest in the subject.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2015)

these'll be the same people who nodded alng to a sanction regime that murdered many thousands of Iraqi children. Its one of the things I truly fucking hate about these lot- we saw it with 'yay for nato' penny as well. They feel that they can make a sage judgement on what should or should not be done militarily. The fucking arrogance of it all, they'll never be on either end of a gun. They'll never be digging through rubble to try and find their kids bodies. Shithouse liberal wankers #summerofthuggery


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 18, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> these'll be the same people who nodded alng to a sanction regime that murdered many thousands of Iraqi children. Its one of the things I truly fucking hate about these lot- we saw it with 'yay for nato' penny as well. They feel that they can make a sage judgement on what should or should not be done militarily. The fucking arrogance of it all, they'll never be on either end of a gun. They'll never be digging through rubble to try and find their kids bodies. Shithouse liberal wankers #summerofthuggery



Have you noticed how few of them have ever either been in the military or embedded with it, but still think they have a far greater knowledge of what should be done and how than the military themselves? Reminds me of those idiots sat on barstools who insist on talking down to someone who's been in the job for twenty years or more.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 18, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> these'll be the same people who nodded alng to a sanction regime that murdered many thousands of Iraqi children. Its one of the things I truly fucking hate about these lot- we saw it with 'yay for nato' penny as well. They feel that they can make a sage judgement on what should or should not be done militarily. The fucking arrogance of it all, they'll never be on either end of a gun. They'll never be digging through rubble to try and find their kids bodies. Shithouse liberal wankers #summerofthuggery


 
It's all just a game to them, look at the language - 'it could be argued'. All that basically means is that she has heard that argument from one of her multitude of hawkish Tory and Red Tory mates, and that it is a reasonable position to take in that company, the important thing is to anchor yourself as a reasonable person within the narrative which is widely accepted and pushed by the bubble. No thought for the human consequences of such a position, just interest in whether it's a reasonable one to take and whether they will keep getting invited to dinner parties and balls.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Have you noticed how few of them have ever either been in the military or embedded with it, but still think they have a far greater knowledge of what should be done and how than the military themselves? Reminds me of those idiots sat on barstools who insist on talking down to someone who's been in the job for twenty years or more.



its more than that though. I'm a semi-geek about war, I think you have that cap as well, but I've never served. But cheering on the carpet bombing of libya ffs. You don't need even a smidge of knowledge to see the human cost there. Its like watching screaming apes hoot and throw shit at things cos yay nato. Fucks sake. And I was no fan of the late gaddafi either, but how can the wise heads who went to oxford and everything just not see what they are cheering for.


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 18, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> its more than that though. I'm a semi-geek about war, I think you have that cap as well, but I've never served. But cheering on the carpet bombing of libya ffs. You don't need even a smidge of knowledge to see the human cost there. Its like watching screaming apes hoot and throw shit at things cos yay nato. Fucks sake. And I was no fan of the late gaddafi either, but how can the wise heads who went to oxford and everything just not see what they are cheering for.



True, you don't need to have served to see the human cost of warfare, far from it. The talking heads are paid to talk and have opinions, preferably opinions that fit well within whichever bubble they inhabit be it left, right or middle. They make a living from having the 'right' opinions for their particular audience. It's been said that people choose their media based on its ability to confirm their pre-existing worldview, not to challenge the beliefs they already hold, hence the potentially lucrative career path based on having the 'right' opinions and knowing the 'right' people to advance your career not by ability, but by spouting the appropriate claptrap at Islington dinner parties.


----------



## krink (Jun 18, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> how can the wise heads who went to oxford and everything just not see what they are cheering for.



They can see, they are fully committed to that ideology.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 18, 2015)

krink said:


> They can see, they are fully committed to that ideology.


 
Yes they are, but they are also stupid I think. Some of them anyway, Helen Lewis comes across that way to me.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's all just a game to them, look at the language - 'it could be argued'. All that basically means is that she has heard that argument from one of her multitude of hawkish Tory and Red Tory mates, and that it is a reasonable position to take in that company, the important thing is to anchor yourself as a reasonable person within the narrative which is widely accepted and pushed by the bubble. No thought for the human consequences of such a position, just interest in whether it's a reasonable one to take and whether they will keep getting invited to dinner parties and balls.


All the grand game ennit. They couldn't actually give a flying fuck either way, but have to have a motherfucking opinion for money.


----------



## rekil (Jun 21, 2015)

BigTom said:


> lol, I just auto-branded it, tbf would actually be better without the logo. I was just worrying that cismales/christmas was a pun too far. Which it probably is.



Naturally PD denounces the infantile competitiveness of the twitter machine "fav" system, but surely this populist sop to patriarchy "day" deserved to fare a bit better.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2015)

Not sure whether this belongs here but anybody know what happened to atheism+? http://www.atheismplus.com/forums/ seems to have been down for a few weeks.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 21, 2015)

copliker said:


> Naturally PD denounces the infantile competitiveness of the twitter machine "fav" system, but surely this populist sop to patriarchy "day" deserved to fare a bit better.
> 
> View attachment 73034



Deng the capitalist roader.


----------



## rekil (Jun 21, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Deng the capitalist roader.


Yeah but intersectionality.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 21, 2015)

Yeah but proper communism.


----------



## rekil (Jun 21, 2015)

Applied multitudinous positionism. 

#smug


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 21, 2015)

"IT COULD BE ARGUED..."


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm sure the Iraqi people would love to be bored of war too. What a vacuous and callous thing to post, Helen Lewis should be ashamed of herself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I'm sure the Iraqi people would love to be bored of war too. What a vacuous and callous thing to post, Helen Lewis should be ashamed of herself.


ironic post-modern ennui I think. Oh darling the Armenian genocide is just so fucking boring now. Shall I fetch a blueberry muffin?

etc


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 22, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I'm sure the Iraqi people would love to be bored of war too. What a vacuous and callous thing to post, Helen Lewis should be ashamed of herself.



It's Helen Lewis,and she's a columnist. She's paid to think up _faux_-controversial positions,and to voice them. Think of her as a 99p store Julie Burchill, but without the sarcastic wit.


----------



## Theisticle (Jun 22, 2015)

NS is shit at the best of times; but Helen Lewis is so terribly vapid with her shite opinions for money.


----------



## rekil (Jun 22, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Yeah but proper communism.


In fairness, I did want to stick Barry Mainwaring's head on him, but a mixture of incompetence and laziness conspired against me once again and the "ah, it'll do" approach prevailed. This is why we can't have nice things etc.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 23, 2015)

Those of you with shit music taste may remember the existence of Alec Empire, the main guy from Atari Teenage RIot. Anyway he's having a full on anti-deutsch meltdown on twitter at the moment.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 23, 2015)

Does Alec Empire count as 'commentariat' now?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Those of you with shit music taste may remember the existence of Alec Empire, the main guy from Atari Teenage RIot. Anyway he's having a full on anti-deutsch meltdown on twitter at the moment.



Aren't you a bit old for trendy indie groups, Nige?


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Those of you with shit music taste may remember the existence of Alec Empire, the main guy from Atari Teenage RIot. Anyway he's having a full on anti-deutsch meltdown on twitter at the moment.


Not sure I want to mock someone who may be obviously mentally unwell to be honest.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 23, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Aren't you a bit old for trendy indie groups, Nige?



They were formed when I was still a child, are in no way currently trendy and I've never been a fan!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 23, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Not sure I want to mock someone who may be obviously mentally unwell to be honest.



Is there some indication that all's not right with him, other than the sub-anti-deutsch gibberish he was talking?


----------



## killer b (Jun 23, 2015)

When a friend went to see Atari teenage riot some years ago, empire was ranting some conspiracy theory about princess di, so mentalist meltdowns aren't unfamiliar territory for him.

I quite like some of his music, despite his cute politics.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Is there some indication that all's not right with him, other than the sub-anti-deutsch gibberish he was talking?


Other than that, no, but it doesn't sound exactly sensible behaviour.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 23, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Other than that, no, but it doesn't sound exactly sensible behaviour.



He's a confused German anarchoid leftist. That shit is par for the course.


----------



## chilango (Jun 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Those of you with shit music taste may remember the existence of Alec Empire, the main guy from Atari Teenage RIot. Anyway he's having a full on anti-deutsch meltdown on twitter at the moment.



The German housemate of mine who put together the Portuguese Revolution museum thing in the squatted house in Porto with me that I may have mentioned here and there shared a Berlin squat with Alec Empire back in the day.

Can I be commentariat now please too?


----------



## krink (Jun 24, 2015)

chilango said:


> Can I be commentariat now please too?



In the style of any shit liberal guardian columnist, give us an opening paragraph for an article on...lets say ISIS


----------



## JimW (Jun 24, 2015)

krink said:


> In the style of any shit liberal guardian columnist, give us an opening paragraph for an article on...lets say ISIS


As I look out of my Hoxton window at the chicken dinner boxes blowing down the street, I ponder on the similarities between my embattled plight and that of the Yazidi...


----------



## cantsin (Jun 24, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Not sure I want to mock someone who may be obviously mentally unwell to be honest.



huh ? from the above post you're concluding someone may be "mentally unwell" ? How do you work that out ?


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Those of you with shit music taste may remember the existence of Alec Empire, the main guy from Atari Teenage RIot. Anyway he's having a full on anti-deutsch meltdown on twitter at the moment.





cantsin said:


> huh ? from the above post you're concluding someone may be "mentally unwell" ? How do you work that out ?


Someone has been described as having a meltdown. How do you interpret that? 

Note I said he might be unwell,  not that he definitely was.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> He's a confused German anarchoid leftist. That shit is par for the course.



In the squatted villa at the top of Reilstrasse the other week, I saw a sticker depicting Bomber Harris and the slogan "deine jammern stolz mich an" - "your moaning makes me proud".


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 25, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Does Alec Empire count as 'commentariat' now?


does opposing the stupid effect of BDS on Israeli music equate to an anti-Deutcshe meltdown? (not that I'm defending his music or any other statements) didn't see owt wrong with his tweets on this.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 25, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Someone has been described as having a meltdown. How do you interpret that?
> 
> Note I said he might be unwell,  not that he definitely was.



it's Alec Empire being a complete dick, if you knew nothing about him / what was happening in the twitspat, why bother with daft mental health related conjecture ?


----------



## Belushi (Jun 25, 2015)

Why the fuck are people discussing Alec fucking Empire


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 25, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Why the fuck are people discussing Alec fucking Empire



Apparently someone heard that their mate's brother saw Laurie Penny at an Atari Teenage Riot gig once.


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2015)

I saw laurie penny at a noise-rock festival a couple of years ago, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Apparently someone heard that their mate's brother saw Laurie Penny at an Atari Teenage Riot gig once.


It'd have to be the new shot/shit version then given her age.


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 25, 2015)

Well *somebody's* reported/ locked LP out of her facebook account for it not being her real name. 


http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tec...ur-real-name-and-what-counts-real-name-anyway
Alec empire?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 25, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Well *somebody's* reported/ locked LP out of her facebook account for it not being her real name.
> 
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tec...ur-real-name-and-what-counts-real-name-anyway
> Alec empire?



It's a stupid policy


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 25, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's a stupid policy


selling to advertisers is surely the name of the game and to get more £££ for the adspace they need to be sure they are targetting a genuine mr D Communist rather than some made up name 

at least I think that is the logic


----------



## Libertad (Jun 25, 2015)

Does anyone know how to get around this photographic evidence bollocks?
I could just open another account with a different email addy but the worst of it is that I can't login to delete my account. There doesn't seem to be any way to contact Facebook without having a live FB account.


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2015)

I think you can just photoshop a passport and send it to them - they can't be doing anymore than a cursory (or even automatic) check of each one.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 25, 2015)

killer b said:


> I think you can just photoshop a passport and send it to them - they can't be doing anymore than a cursory (or even automatic) check of each one.



I don't have photoshop or teh skillz.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 25, 2015)

Done one for you


----------



## Libertad (Jun 25, 2015)

two sheds said:


> Done one for you



Uncanny.  We must have met.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 25, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> selling to advertisers is surely the name of the game and to get more £££ for the adspace they need to be sure they are targetting a genuine mr D Communist rather than some made up name
> 
> at least I think that is the logic



Nah. To sell advertising they need to know the pages you look at, which they do (assuming you're on Facebook anyway). Your name is beside the point.


----------



## rekil (Jul 2, 2015)

You are, and everybody else lucky enough to go to Brighton College and Oxford, and your nazi hacker stalker hero, and Amanda Palmer.

eta: It's a year old. It doesn't age well this stuff.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 2, 2015)

I can't read that. Literally can't. It's just utter shit, a big wet shit on a massive pile of shit andd I hope everyone mentioned in it or wrote it or read it and liked it dies in some shit.


----------



## rekil (Jul 2, 2015)

At least no nazis get the mention.


----------



## Favelado (Jul 2, 2015)

copliker said:


> View attachment 73485
> 
> You are, and everybody else lucky enough to go to Brighton College and Oxford, and your nazi hacker stalker hero, and Amanda Palmer.



It's disgusting the way she lumps herself in with groups who've had it a billion times harder than her. 



> My qualification to talk about all this is that I’ve spent five years working, largely as a freelancer, sometimes within mainstream publications like this one and sometimes outside them, to change how journalism and commentary was done. I’ve been doing this along with hundreds of women, people of colour, trans people and allies who saw a media world that was closed to them and only spoke to them to tell them lies and thought, fuck that, we have the technology to do better. So we did.



She's been rich since the day she was born. It's bullshit. If you care so much about society Laurie, why don't you step aside and let a less well-off woman do your job?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 2, 2015)

I think we need a 'why the independent is going down the pan' thread


----------



## rekil (Jul 2, 2015)

"The hyena can bounce on the lion’s grave but it can never be a lion, and in any case, grave, I am not in you."


----------



## J Ed (Jul 6, 2015)

This is brilliant



> Lindsay Wheatcroft, Joseph Thomas, and Dix Franks have all asked me what I think of the effort to crowdfund the bailout of the Greek Government.
> 
> Edgy answer: Yes, this is a matter that innovators like us ponder almost every weekend, isn't it? The Greek situation is tragic, but a predictable outcome, given the fact that the government that seized power is committed to outdated political paradigms. I think the initiative to crowd-fund the Greek bailout is leading edge. In fact, it hasn't just‪#‎movedtheneedle‬ – it's ‪#‎brokenthegauge‬. Orthodox 20th-century activists should be looking to this initiative as a model for practical, positive, boots-on-the-ground campaigning in the future. Instead of hand-wringing about the "brutal system of capitalist violence that robs people of their labor, wealth, and dignity to serve the interests of a wealthy few, all the while masking its violence behind a patronizing rhetoric of personal financial responsibility" (‪#‎lol‬ ‪#‎jargonmuch‬?), this campaign proactively leverages micro-capital, 21st-century social networks, digital platforms, 3D-printing (probably), and a "can do" attitude to mobilize the people into a people's revolution of synergistic, gamified, optimized, actionable solidarity. It recognizes that Big Government isn't going to fix the problem (because it has no capacity to do so, by virtue of its own bureaucratic character and no other external factors), but that the private sector, as a leader in start-up thinking and social innovation, most certainly can.
> 
> To be sure, I would have liked to have seen a coordinated effort across Europe (not just the UK), using multiple platforms. Those involved might also perhaps have leveraged broader communications networks by working with larger private sector stakeholders (e.g. Virgin, Goldman Sachs, etc.) to get the word out. But the current effort is a good start worthy of considerable ‪#‎failforward‬ applause, and there will certainly be future opportunities to improve the model. It's all ‪#‎iterative‬, really.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> This is brilliant


"I am intrigued by your ideas, and interested in subscribing to your newsletter".


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 6, 2015)

leftish governments democratically elected are always described as having 'seized' power like its the fucking october revolution


----------



## J Ed (Jul 6, 2015)

Has anyone seen a better candidate for execution?



> Punk rock has never been just about the music and the scene, it's also about imparting a certain frame of ideas that range from political activism to government beef to the forever prevalent theme of social change.  So what better genre than punk rock to help teach our children about what really matters?  After all, our minds are being shaped and molded from the day we learn to understand our native language.
> 
> Oklahoma City preschool teacher Jarred Geller seems to agree.  At Punk Rock Preschool, he blends his anarcho-capitalistic ideals with pre-k subject matter and a blend of educational pop-punk music to teach about the government, capitalism, the environment, trading (not sharing), and just about every other higher-level topic that you’d never think a kid could grasp.  If anything, he's breeding the youngest punk rock musicians in the country.  Their childhood angst and freedom to express themselves truly makes them the best candidates for the genre.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> This is brilliant



Has no one told you? All it takes for the hegemony of the bankers to crumble is 3d printing, BitCoins, a Popup yoghurt shop and some 'Upcycling'. Feel the Troika tremble!


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Has anyone seen a better candidate for execution?


----------



## 8den (Jul 6, 2015)

How anyone could write this sentence 



> Yes, this is a matter that innovators like us ponder almost every weekend, isn't it?



And not feel immediately compelled to repeatedly punch themselves in the face in a furious fit of self loathing until they pass out and drown in their own blood is beyond me.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 6, 2015)

It's satire


----------



## 8den (Jul 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's satire



Y'know I sort of thought it was but at this point it's getting really really hard to spot the difference.


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 8, 2015)

Favelado said:


> It's disgusting the way she lumps herself in with groups who've had it a billion times harder than her.
> 
> 
> 
> She's been rich since the day she was born. It's bullshit. If you care so much about society Laurie, why don't you step aside and let a less well-off woman do your job?


I'd probably find some of her stuff almost readable if it started "I am in no way qualified to write this, in fact none of this shit affects me in the least, but I've listened to what some people I have very little in common with had to say...


----------



## Favelado (Jul 8, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> I'd probably find some of her stuff almost readable if it started "I am in no way qualified to write this, in fact none of this shit affects me in the least, but I've listened to what some people I have very little in common with had to say...



Yeah, that approach would be fine. No-one's asking her to be oppressed, just honest.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 8, 2015)

Favelado said:


> Yeah, that approach would be fine. No-one's asking her to be oppressed, just honest.



A forlorn hope, IMHO.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> I'd probably find some of her stuff almost readable if it started "I am in no way qualified to write this, in fact none of this shit affects me in the least, but I've listened to what some people I have very little in common with had to say...


Even better if she allowed others to actually speak with their own voices, instead of speaking for them and claiming their real oppression as her badge of honour. No chance of that happening either, I suspect.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 8, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Even better if she allowed others to actually speak with their own voices, instead of speaking for them and claiming their real oppression as her badge of honour. No chance of that happening either, I suspect.



It's about as likely as any civilised human being felching rancid tuna salad out of their own anus with a straw, then asking for seconds.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> It's about as likely as any civilised human being felching rancid tuna salad out of their own anus with a straw, then asking for seconds.


Bleurgh.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

I feel quite sick now Bakunin.


----------



## toggle (Jul 8, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I feel quite sick now Bakunin.



i'll deal with him


----------



## JimW (Jul 8, 2015)

Remind me never to accept an invite round yours for tea, Bakunin


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 8, 2015)

mark my words, its the next big thing in the pop up scene, rancid arse tuna served in an ironic jamjar


----------



## toggle (Jul 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> mark my words, its the next big thing in the pop up scene, rancid arse tuna served in an ironic jamjar




oh ffs, don't fucking encourage him


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

toggle said:


> i'll deal with him


Thanks toggle


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

toggle said:


> oh ffs, don't fucking encourage him


To be fair I don't think Bakunin needs any encouragement


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 8, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair I don't think Bakunin needs any encouragement



I am naturally extremely revolting, yes.

Still, mother always said I'd be good at _something_.


----------



## toggle (Jul 8, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair I don't think Bakunin needs any encouragement



i know


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> I am naturally extremely revolting, yes.
> 
> Still, mother always said I'd be good at _something_.


Yes, we all have a talent. Nobody said it had to be something good.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 8, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, we all have a talent. Nobody said it had to be something good.



I collect sticks, I am quite good at it though.


----------



## toggle (Jul 8, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I collect sticks, I am quite good at it though.



can i have one to hit him with please. he's grinning like a dog with two dicks atm


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

toggle said:


> can i have one to hit him with please. he's grinning like a dog with two dicks atm


Tell him if he doesn't behave I'll come down there and do something I haven't thought of yet. It will be unpleasant though.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 8, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Tell him if he doesn't behave I'll come down there and do something I haven't thought of yet. It will be unpleasant though.



Involving tuna...


and a stick.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 8, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I collect sticks, I am quite good at it though.



If anyone makes such a move I'll set the cat on them.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 8, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> If anyone makes such a move I'll set the cat on them.



You're complicating things now. Tuna, stick, cat; could get messy.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> If anyone makes such a move I'll set the cat on them.


Cats love me. I could train it to attack you.


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 8, 2015)

toggle said:


> can i have one to hit him with please. he's grinning like a dog with two dicks atm


He's gone native.


----------



## rekil (Jul 14, 2015)

Good 'ol Vice.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 14, 2015)

copliker said:


> Good 'ol Vice.
> 
> View attachment 74020



Milo has been spending the past couple of years trying to push a neoreactionary views to younger people through Gamergate, this seems to be part of that offensive, you can see the strong Murdoch hand at work slowly turning Vice into a (more obvious) right-wing publication through the 'libertarian' gateway drug.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2015)

copliker said:


> Good 'ol Vice.
> 
> View attachment 74020



Milo *still* hasn't grown beyond the "child smearing self with own faeces to get attention" stage, I see.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2015)

Paul Mason imagines that technology is going to liberate us on its own.. (despite all evidence to the contrary on the use of automation under our current system)


----------



## fractionMan (Jul 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Paul Mason imagines that technology is going to liberate us on its own.. (despite all evidence to the contrary on the use of automation under our current system)



fucking hell that's awful


----------



## J Ed (Jul 18, 2015)

fractionMan said:


> fucking hell that's awful



Yes, a mix of weird stuff I have read from the 80s about how the work week would be cut in half due to automation and techno-libertarian bullshit with a vaguely socialist twist. I wonder if he believes it...


----------



## emanymton (Jul 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Paul Mason imagines that technology is going to liberate us on its own.. (despite all evidence to the contrary on the use of automation under our current system)


Only someone in the media could write this nonsense 


> information technology has brought about in the past 25 years. First, it has reduced the need for work, blurred the edges between work and free time and loosened the relationship between work and wages


The last one doesn't even sound like a good thing to me.


----------



## rekil (Jul 18, 2015)

Is his trucker hat too tight or what? He forgot to mention google glass, "barricades on your face".


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2015)

Sounds like he's getting up to date and reading 50s post-work utopia adverts - daniel bell etc


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2015)

All those new billions of actual wage-dependent manual workers in china have blurred the edges between work and free time and loosened the relationship between work and wages

Does he only ever see the country he is currently in love with?


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 18, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Only someone in the media could write this nonsense
> 
> The last one doesn't even sound like a good thing to me.


Neither does the second to last.  Do a shit job all day and it follow you home or do shit hours for shit pay but any free time isn't your own because if you want to keep even that pittance you better be ready to jump at a moments notice.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jul 18, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> All those new billions of actual wage-dependent manual workers in china have blurred the edges between work and free time and loosened the relationship between work and wages
> 
> Does he only ever see the country he is currently in love with?



He's got a book called postcapitalism. A comrade recommends i read it for a light reading group. I'm not at all sure. I just imagine force feeding him (mason) quotations from The Spirit of Horsepower


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 18, 2015)

Libertad said:


> You're complicating things now. Tuna, stick, cat; could get messy.



There's one potential advantage. When ours pops her clogs I can always bung the stick up her arse and use her as a duster.


----------



## toggle (Jul 18, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> There's one potential advantage. When ours pops her clogs I can always bung the stick up her arse and use her as a duster.



any more of that and i will confiscate the keyboard.

go to bed, you're tired enough to be being a fucking idiot and starting to go more than a bit hyper. if you don't want to star5t triggering a manic episode, go to fucking bed. grab yoiur meds first

go to bed.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 18, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> Neither does the second to last.  Do a shit job all day and it follow you home or do shit hours for shit pay but any free time isn't your own because if you want to keep even that pittance you better be ready to jump at a moments notice.


Well yeah that one too.  I think they sound especially bad in combination.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 21, 2015)

I cant make up my mind whether this is an interesting bit of analysis or to think that at the end its bordering on apologism especially the last three paragraphs. 

ISIS Transforming Into Functioning State That Uses Terror as Tool http://nyti.ms/1Voiy9U

I mean wtf

_Mr. McLaughlin, the onetime C.I.A. deputy, wondered whether the group, as it evolves, would begin to change its behavior, halting the destruction of antiquities, as it did in the recently captured Syrian city of Palmyra, or moderating its brutality as other revolutionary movements in history have done. “If they did,” he said, “the sense could settle in that this could be the new reality.”

Still, he said, it is hard to imagine the Islamic State becoming a legitimate state, with functioning airports and passports.

But, he added, “it’s not inconceivable.”

_


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 21, 2015)

Mr. McCants said this was an underlying theme in his coming book, “The ISIS Apocalypse,” to be published in September. “You’d like to say that treating people well and good governance go hand in hand,” he said, “but it’s not the case.”



Blurrrrrrrgh


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/se...o-each-other-about-pleasuring-themselves.html

Er ... Why????


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

yes i should definitely start a conversation with people i work with and my female friends about wanking and what we wank about!?


----------



## YouSir (Jul 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> yes i should definitely start a conversation with people i work with and my female friends about wanking and what we wank about!?



I remember as a kid being shown a sex education video at school which started off with a load of lads talking about how fiercely they'd wanked last night. Completely forget the greater message, don't get crabs or something, but that scene always stuck with me.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

why


YouSir said:


> I remember as a kid being shown a sex education video at school which started off with a load of lads talking about how fiercely they'd wanked last night. Completely forget the greater message, don't get crabs or something, but that scene always stuck with me.


 why are sex-ed videos always so cringey?


----------



## YouSir (Jul 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> why
> 
> why are sex-ed videos always so cringey?



To remind us all that sex should be awkward, embarrassing and, in my experience, filmed some time in the early '80s?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 22, 2015)

YouSir said:


> I remember as a kid being shown a sex education video at school which started off with a load of lads talking about how fiercely they'd wanked last night. Completely forget the greater message, don't get crabs or something, but that scene always stuck with me.



Are you sure this was a legit sex-ed video?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

I think DotCommunist also remembers "Johnny Condom"


----------



## YouSir (Jul 22, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Are you sure this was a legit sex-ed video?



Well, granted it was shown in a portacabin by a strange man but then that covers most of my school life so... hmmh...


----------



## xslavearcx (Jul 22, 2015)

So glad I went to a catholic school!!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 22, 2015)

xslavearcx said:


> So glad I went to a catholic school!!



Yeah me too. Our sex education mostly consisted of a nun telling us that contraception was evil, and that loads of women have died horrifically after getting a coil fitted. In my head a coil was some sort of giant rusty spring. The logistics of how such a device functioned was never made clear.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 22, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Yeah me too. Our sex education mostly consisted of a nun telling us that contraception was evil, and that loads of women have died horrifically after getting a coil fitted. In my head a coil was some sort of giant rusty spring. The logistics of how such a device functioned was never made clear.



Does it prevent pregnancy by explosively ricocheting through your body and out of the top of your head when you have sinful thoughts?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 22, 2015)

YouSir said:


> Does it prevent pregnancy by explosively ricocheting through your body and out of the top of your head when you have sinful thoughts?



I think it acts to propel penises away. Bounces them off whilst making a comedy boinging noise.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 22, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I think it acts to propel penises away. Bounces them off whilst making a comedy boinging noise.



That image made me laugh more than I expected, thank you.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 22, 2015)

YouSir said:


> That image made me laugh more than I expected, thank you.


 Your welcome.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

> Please, new associate members who will shape the party for the next five years, maybe forever: do a little research. Think what kind of country you want for you and your children and, even more importantly, think how you might get there. Now think, is Jeremy Corbyn in the middle of that picture? I don’t think so.



I am really cynical about the labour party and wont be joining it ever let alone voting for him but most of the people who are have their hearts far more in the right place than you you soulless careerist guardian twonk


----------



## J Ed (Jul 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I am really cynical about the labour party and wont be joining it ever let alone voting for him but most of the people who are have their hearts far more in the right place than you you soulless careerist guardian twonk



There is an astonishing amount of entitlement coming from red and yellow Tories, they think that they should get to decide everything. The plebs can vote, yes, but of course it is only sensible that they can only do so within the parameters of the financial sector asset striping dictatorship which we have imposed and called the moderate centre ground.

Notice that she does not address one single policy in her diatribe, it's just mudslinging, because his policies are actually quite popular with the electorate.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> why
> 
> why are sex-ed videos always so cringey?



If you want cringey then the old British Army vids warning about STD's should suffice.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

*Blair urges Labour not to wrap itself in a Jeremy Corbyn comfort blanket*




Is this a direct quote, in which case, why not put it in quote marks?

If its not a direct quote then I dunno wtf to say


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2015)

and why should the guardian be caring about tony blair's opinion on anything?


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 22, 2015)

I wouldn't mind wrapping Blair in a comfort blanket. Accompanied by an anchor and swift trip off the Vauxhall Bridge.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 22, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> I wouldn't mind wrapping Blair in a comfort blanket. Accompanied by an anchor and swift trip off the Vauxhall Bridge.










Furnace would be more eco friendly.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> *Blair urges Labour not to wrap itself in a Jeremy Corbyn comfort blanket*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now that the Yellow Tories are basically no more the Graunid is moving to the next best horse - Red Tories.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 22, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> yes i should definitely start a conversation with people i work with and my female friends about wanking and what we wank about!?



Either she has some quite confused ideas about what men talk about or all of the men I know are unusually prudish. She skips straight from the correct observation that men are more likely to make jokes about wanking to suggesting that women should talk with their friends about masturbation technique and fantasies. These things are not the same. Men are also more likely to make jokes about taking a dump. It doesn't flow from that observation that women should therefore start telling each other about the consistency of their stools.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 22, 2015)

YouSir said:


> Furnace would be more eco friendly.



True. And becoming free cat litter is about Blair's level.


----------



## rekil (Jul 22, 2015)

I nearly forgot how bad Sunny Hundal's opinions are.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2015)

copliker said:


> I nearly forgot how bad Sunny Hundal's opinions are.



I have no words.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 22, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I have no words.


 Unfortunately not something that can be said about Sunny.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 22, 2015)

Peak Guardian: George Osborne ruined my yoga retreat

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-osborne-ruined-yoga-retreat?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...15/jul/23/museums-should-charge-entrance-fees

The unsayable truth: museums should charge entrance fees


erm why is this "unsayable"? didnt stop him saying it, did it?


----------



## Belushi (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...15/jul/23/museums-should-charge-entrance-fees
> 
> The unsayable truth: museums should charge entrance fees
> 
> ...



And he appears unaware that museums did charge for entry until Blair's government made them free.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

Belushi said:


> And he appears unaware that museums did charge for entry until Blair's government made them free.





> It might also make our exhibition culture a bit more relaxed. Because Britain’s big London galleries as well as regional museums are mostly free, they have to generate income from exhibitions – for which they charge plenty. This drives the “blockbuster” obsession that many people are unhappy about



basically plebs are ruining museums cos they want to see cool shit like an ancient egypt theme rather than the obscure shit we guardian people appreciate more keenly


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

yeah their "liberalism" is just thinly veiled hatred of the common herd. despicable.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

nuff museums do charge anyway  

one of my greatest pleasures when going round otherwise boring towns is going to odd little museums and finding something random and cool.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

Northamptons shoe museums best exhibit is all the fetish footwear specialists made here for the film 'Kinky Boots'. Interesting one to vist with ones nan I can tell you!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> yeah their "liberalism" is just thinly veiled hatred of the common herd. despicable.


theres an element of london-centriscism to it as well. We don't all live in big cities with many galleries and ancient museums full of amazing stuff. So when I do come down with my straw being chewed and my 'how much for a can of coke?!'  expression I would rather like to see the cool shit nobs like this one take for granted. So does every schoolkid ever as well. Giant dinasour skellington or a trip to see the lesser sketches constable did? oh its a hard choice for man or a boy


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Northamptons shoe museums best exhibit is all the fetish footwear specialists made here for the film 'Kinky Boots'. Interesting one to vist with ones nan I can tell you!



Can't be as thrilling as the Keswick Pencil Museum.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Can't be as thrilling as the Keswick Pencil Museum.


I've been to cornwall a few times, with family and friends and EVERY TIME the Pilchard Museum suggestion from me is vetoed by 'oh noes lets go look at some boring caves then go pub or beach'. Wankers


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Can't be as thrilling as the Keswick Pencil Museum.



mate where is that museum. I wanna go. It sounds amazing.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> mate where is that museum. I wanna go. It sounds amazing.



Keswick


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I've been to cornwall a few times, with family and friends and EVERY TIME the Pilchard Museum suggestion from me is vetoed by 'oh noes lets go look at some boring caves then go pub or beach'. Wankers



lol. i never knew there was a pilchard museum. where is that. it sounds awesome.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> mate where is that museum. I wanna go. It sounds amazing.


Up north. I'd be up for a visit..


----------



## weepiper (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...15/jul/23/museums-should-charge-entrance-fees
> 
> The unsayable truth: museums should charge entrance fees



translation: fuck poor people, they don't matter.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Up north. I'd be up for a visit..



Me too.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 23, 2015)

Museums aren't free anyway, we pay through our taxes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> lol. i never knew there was a pilchard museum. where is that. it sounds awesome.


somewhere in cornwall. It's dedicated to displaying all the crafts and techniques the net-draggers of yesteryear used in their centuries old sea harvesting, its basically a  museum to a lost art when there was no engines and you feared the sea with a healthy respect rather than just plowing through it with a massive engine. But no, always the fucking beach so I get sand in my arse crack and my packed lunch

also it covers all the preservation and post-catch industry used to keep pilchads saleable over distance


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> somewhere in cornwall. It's dedicated to displaying all the crafts and techniques the net-draggers of yesteryear used in their centuries old sea harvesting, its basically a  museum to a lost art when there was no engines and you feared the sea with a healthy respect rather than just plowing through it with a massive engine. But no, always the fucking beach so I get sand in my arse crack and my packed lunch
> 
> also it covers all the preservation and post-catch industry used to keep pilchads saleable over distance



That sounds great, id be up for a visit. I love bizarre museums like that.


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## seventh bullet (Jul 23, 2015)

The museum of Proletarian Democracy, telling the story of our road to power, will be free, as will all the beings in the known universe that our party has touched.


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## Bakunin (Jul 23, 2015)

This sounds interesting, not sure your typical Guardian reader could stomach it, though:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/mar/19/scotland-yards-black-museum-reveal-dark-secrets


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## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)




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## Artaxerxes (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> somewhere in cornwall. It's dedicated to displaying all the crafts and techniques the net-draggers of yesteryear used in their centuries old sea harvesting, its basically a  museum to a lost art when there was no engines and you feared the sea with a healthy respect rather than just plowing through it with a massive engine. But no, always the fucking beach so I get sand in my arse crack and my packed lunch
> 
> also it covers all the preservation and post-catch industry used to keep pilchads saleable over distance



That sounds awesome.

For those going to London I'd suggest you go to this museum over any of the big ones

edit; I'm reminded of a quote but can't bloody remember it, something about Art being needed to inspire and lead the way out of barbarity for all, not just the rich. Which is why the guy made sure the estate he built had artwork on the walls, on the clotheslines.


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## Favelado (Jul 23, 2015)

It's 14 euros to get into the Prado now. That's why I don't go anymore. That's why free museums are good. Not difficult is it?


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## seventh bullet (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


>



Monument to the Conquerors of Space.  I used to pass that place a fair bit in northern Moscow.  It's been cleaned up in recent years, used to be covered in graffiti.


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## weepiper (Jul 23, 2015)

Favelado said:


> It's 14 euros to get into the Prado now. That's why I don't go anymore. That's why free museums are good. Not difficult is it?


cunt that wrote that article simply cannot compute the idea of not having a disposable income.


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## Favelado (Jul 23, 2015)

weepiper said:


> cunt that wrote that article simply cannot compute the idea of not having a disposable income.



Favourite comment below article 



> Thatcher introduced charges for admission to museums and cut their funding. The result was that most people stopped going. The Labour government made them free again. Now this idiot wants to go back to charging. He needs to be doing a different job. Not journalism. Maybe cleaning the floors in a museum?


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## Libertad (Jul 23, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Museums aren't free anyway, we pay through our taxes.



This.
We've already paid for all this and continue to do so . It's ours, if you want to charge us again then at least have the fucking decency to ask us.


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## Favelado (Jul 23, 2015)

"Where art is concerned the crowd is an idiot". 
http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...ding-where-art-is-concerned-crowd-is-an-idiot

I'd like to go round his house and do a massive turd on his doorstop. I'd call it "Dirty Protest" and claim it was a statement about the relationship between artists and critics. He'd like it and then it would win the Turner Prize.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

Artaxerxes said:


> Art being needed to inspire and lead the way out of barbarity for all


Sounds like that old Matthew Arnold thing about art being a social glue and shared heritage etc. I'm not sure I ever bought that 100%, pretty pictures and the plunder of antiquity don't put food on the table, the social sphere facilitated by access to art and culture is still heavily class demarcated (as this article shows, even though the author doesn't realise it). Our things and their things. For some reason I'm recalling Educating Rita which while a soppy tale does show that working class people are encouraged to think in terms of _their_ art and _our _getting on with life, the reactions of Rita's husband for instance.


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## Celyn (Jul 23, 2015)

Belushi said:


> And he appears unaware that museums did charge for entry until Blair's government made them free.



Aren't museums normally a thing under local control? Museums in Glasgow are free, and have been ever since I can remember.


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## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Sounds like that old Matthew Arnold thing about art being a social glue and shared heritage etc. I'm not sure I ever bought that 100%, pretty pictures and the plunder of antiquity don't put food on the table, the social sphere facilitated by access to art and culture is still heavily class demarcated (as this article shows, even though the author doesn't realise it). Our things and their things. For some reason I'm recalling Educating Rita which while a soppy tale does show that working class people are encouraged to think in terms of _their_ art and _our _getting on with life, the reactions of Rita's husband for instance.



There are some absolute scumbags in the art world, look at those cunts buying stolen antiques from ISIS and then going all quiet when asked where they got them. And then there was that cunt who starved a dog to death in a gallery (tho not quite on the same level). Yesterday i walked over a tempory bridge thats been put up while road works are being done, lots of graffiti on there and someone had written asking for graff walls to be legalised so they could paint something decent. Not really any way they can make a buck out of that tho so not gonna happen. I am ranting I know but I really despise some of the immoral cunts that inhabit that milieu.


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## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Can't be as thrilling as the Keswick Pencil Museum.


I LOVE that museum


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## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2015)

Celyn said:


> Aren't museums normally a thing under local control? Museums in Glasgow are free, and have been ever since I can remember.


They're still free, except some of the special exhibitions from time to time.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> There are some absolute scumbags in the art world, look at those cunts buying stolen antiques from ISIS and then going all quiet when asked where they got them. And then there was that cunt who starved a dog to death in a gallery (tho not quite on the same level). Yesterday i walked over a tempory bridge thats been put up while road works are being done, lots of graffiti on there and someone had written asking for graff walls to be legalised so they could paint something decent. Not really any way they can make a buck out of that tho so not gonna happen. I am ranting I know but I really despise some of the immoral cunts that inhabit that milieu.


There are many works seemingly lost to the world through war and plunder that will be in some super rich sociopaths private gallery. Da Vincis terracotta statues, half the shit the nazis nicked that never turned back up. I think for collectors of conflict art it isn't just the antiquity and craft that motivates. Its having it to yourself, in your special viewing room. Even showing it to select discreet fellow super rich collectors of such things, for the private club kudos. There was a forger of antiquities recently, well in the last five years. He fooled everyone. They clocked him in the end but the things he was turning out of his shed were indistinguishable from similar artefacts of the periods he was impersonating. Probably carbon dating that fucked him in the end. You can build it, weather it and make it look 100% but you can't mimic the age of radiation half life measuring


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## DotCommunist (Jul 23, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Monument to the Conquerors of Space.  I used to pass that place a fair bit in northern Moscow.  It's been cleaned up in recent years, used to be covered in graffiti.



I knew you'd know of it! I just always found it touching that cmrd Laika, who made the ultimate sacrifice, is there with gagarin and all the other cosmonaut pioneers. Never forget our animal friends


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## Nigel Irritable (Jul 23, 2015)

Favelado said:


> "Where art is concerned the crowd is an idiot".
> http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...ding-where-art-is-concerned-crowd-is-an-idiot
> 
> I'd like to go round his house and do a massive turd on his doorstop. I'd call it "Dirty Protest" and claim it was a statement about the relationship between artists and critics. He'd like it and then it would win the Turner Prize.



His Guardian columns constitute an ever expanding lake of shit. It's my own fault for knowing that, mind you. If I choose to read a Guardian art column, I deserve to read a Guardian art column.


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## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> There are many works seemingly lost to the world through war and plunder that will be in some super rich sociopaths private gallery. Da Vincis terracotta statues, half the shit the nazis nicked that never turned back up. I think for collectors of conflict art it isn't just the antiquity and craft that motivates. Its having it to yourself, in your special viewing room. Even showing it to select discreet fellow super rich collectors of such things, for the private club kudos. There was a forger of antiquities recently, well in the last five years. He fooled everyone. They clocked him in the end but the things he was turning out of his shed were indistinguishable from similar artefacts of the periods he was impersonating. Probably carbon dating that fucked him in the end. You can build it, weather it and make it look 100% but you can't mimic the age of radiation half life measuring



What happens when the war ends and daesh are sent to hell and the post war Syrians want to have some of their stuff back to take the kids on a day out or a nice walk in front of those statues? And they cant because its sitting in a private collection of some ultra rich fucker somewhere in London.


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## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> His Guardian columns constitute an ever expanding lake of shit. It's my own fault for knowing that, mind you. If I choose to read a Guardian art column, I deserve to read a Guardian art column.


Somebody in a nearby team at work reads the guardian and likes to prove how cultured he is to us by naming all sorts of weird and wonderful arts stuff. We like to mock him relentlessly for being a Guardian reader in return.


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## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

> Where exactly, in history, are these wise crowds? Do you mean the hordes who joined the first crusade and immediately started murdering Jews? The mobs who attacked Catholics, immigrants and foreigners in the 18th-century Gordon riots? Or the people who join in social media attacks on supposedly outrageous remarks by some poor sod or other?



Going on a rape, forced conversion and pillage spree is like a bunch of people calling someone an idiot on Comment is Free articles? Good, glad thats cleared up.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...15/jul/23/museums-should-charge-entrance-fees
> 
> The unsayable truth: museums should charge entrance fees
> 
> ...



Not exactly new. The Tories first tried charging entrance fees at public museums way back in '81.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> The museum of Proletarian Democracy, telling the story of our road to power, will be free, as will all the beings in the known universe that our party has touched.



I finished work on Comrade Mainwaring's glass mausoleum-cum-exhibition case last month, and design work proceeds apace with the spaceship landing pad and Posadist education centre.


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## Buckaroo (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I finished work on Comrade Mainwaring's glass mausoleum-cum-exhibition case last month, and design work proceeds apace with the spaceship landing pad and Posadist education centre.



I think you mean 'Posadist Re-education centre' comrade.


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## Favelado (Jul 23, 2015)

Also, free museums are great for kids. Once you've coughed up a tenner, you feel obliged to stay a couple of hours, until most children are thoroughly bored. Take a child to see 2 or 3 beautiful paintings in a little 30 minute visit and they'll probably leave having enjoyed it and maybe even wanting more.


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 23, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Sounds like that old Matthew Arnold thing about art being a social glue and shared heritage etc. I'm not sure I ever bought that 100%, pretty pictures and the plunder of antiquity don't put food on the table, the social sphere facilitated by access to art and culture is still heavily class demarcated (as this article shows, even though the author doesn't realise it). Our things and their things. For some reason I'm recalling Educating Rita which while a soppy tale does show that working class people are encouraged to think in terms of _their_ art and _our _getting on with life, the reactions of Rita's husband for instance.



It certainly ties in to what my Grandad used to say (though he was talking about football stadiums and crowds) "Treat people like animals and they'll act like animals" 

Some fuckers will always try and do one better and commercialise shit though. The entire modern art scene seems more like a marketing/sales role than actually producing something worth looking at, though even there one or two things manage to actually be worth a look at.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jul 23, 2015)

Helen Lewis lets her inner Blairite show: http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-l...g-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Helen Lewis lets her inner Blairite show: http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-l...g-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity



I've always suspected the internet of having left wing bias.


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## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2015)

An rather stupid argument that undermines itself there. On the one hand the people on Twitter and Facebook who like corbyn are a tiny irrelevant subset of not only voters but if Facebook users. On the other these irrelevant people secretly voted tory and decided the election.


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## J Ed (Jul 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Helen Lewis lets her inner Blairite show: http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-l...g-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity





> A lot of what happens on Facebook, as with Twitter, is “virtue signalling” – showing off to your friends about how right on you are.



What an ironic thing to write considering the fact that she is an editor of a fauxcilist magazine and most of her writing for it is virtue signalling to other servants of the political class about her own neoliberal credentials.



> But I’ve had enough of people describing him as “principled” as if it were a synonym for “holds opinions I agree with”. Liz Kendall, who has been relentlessly called a Tory in disguise – a Facebook Q&A she did was particularly testy on this front – is also principled. If you acknowledge that Corbyn is giving voice to marginalised opinions, you must also acknowledge it takes lady-balls to go to a meeting of Labour activists and say that you support the two-child benefit limit or the 2 per cent defence spending commitment. Kendall is booed at hustings while Corbyn is cheered. Her campaign is faltering precisely because she is saying what she believes.
> 
> As it happens, I disagree with her about the two-child limit – in the words of The West Wing’s Josh Lyman, Osborne apparently wants a government just small enough to fit into our bedrooms. But it is undeniably popular with exactly the people Labour was founded to represent.



So she wants to slag off the Labour Party membership for booing a disgusting eugenics policy but not take any flak for supporting that policy herself... and in an article based on the premise that Corbyn is unprincipled and Kendall is principled. Jesus Christ.


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## J Ed (Jul 23, 2015)

Remember how she claimed "it could be argued that" without the illegal Iraq War the civil war in Syria would be worse? Now she is basically doing the same with Liz Kendall. Does she have any beliefs of her own or does she exist purely to provide left cover for reactionaries?


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## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

Its all the thinly veiled accusations of misogyny as well.


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## J Ed (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Its all the thinly veiled accusations of misogyny as well.



Luckily my criticisms of a two child policy are purely recreational and harmless. I don't actually believe it or commit to anything at all in my magazine. Fine. But what about other people less stable, less educated, less middle-class than me? Builders or blacks for example. If you're one of those, my advice to you is to do what your betters tell you to do and shut up. Good luck.


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## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

Are we seriously saying that not supporting a social enginerring policy by a female leadership contender makes you a sexist. If you are saying that then fucking come out and say it rather than nudge wink snidey underhand ways of implying it.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jul 23, 2015)

The terrified screaming coming from the Guardian and New Statesman as a result of the Corbyn campaign is almost as funny as the panic the Irish Times displays whenever it looks like there might be a No vote in an EU referendum.


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## J Ed (Jul 23, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The terrified screaming coming from the Guardian and New Statesman as a result of the Corbyn campaign is almost as funny as the panic the Irish Times displays whenever it looks like there might be a No vote in an EU referendum.



I'm really enjoying it


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## J Ed (Jul 23, 2015)

I think this and I'm well left therefore if you call people who say this a cunt then you are _really_ unreasonable p.s buy my anti-union mag and watch me pal around with Tories on telly


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## frogwoman (Jul 23, 2015)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...desire-earn-living-proved-be-somewhat-d-class


What


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 23, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I think this and I'm well left therefore if you call people who say this a cunt then you are _really_ unreasonable p.s buy my anti-union mag and watch me pal around with Tories on telly


This on a t-shirt pls


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## Nigel Irritable (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...desire-earn-living-proved-be-somewhat-d-class
> 
> 
> What



They were paying her 50 quid a week too much. Particularly as they were using bequests from old communists to fund the liberal sewage they were producing.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 23, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...desire-earn-living-proved-be-somewhat-d-class
> 
> 
> What



Well, what? What's your opinion? Is it just that Moore submitted another piece while pished, or what?


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## frogwoman (Jul 24, 2015)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Well, what? What's your opinion? Is it just that Moore submitted another piece while pished, or what?



That some of that piece could be made up.


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## J Ed (Jul 24, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> That some of that piece could be made up.



It's also just stupid and makes her seem stupid, which she is


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 24, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> That some of that piece could be made up.



I guess it could be. It's not entirely implausible that Suze made the whole thing up, but the idea that Marxist publications back then then were run eccentrically isn't entirely implausible either.


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## Bakunin (Jul 24, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Luckily my criticisms of a two child policy are purely recreational and harmless. I don't actually believe it or commit to anything at all in my magazine. Fine. But what about other people less stable, less educated, less middle-class than me? Builders or blacks for example. If you're one of those, my advice to you is to do what your betters tell you to do and shut up. Good luck.



The smug, middle class elitism is thick enough to choke on, yes.



frogwoman said:


> Are we seriously saying that not supporting a social enginerring policy by a female leadership contender makes you a sexist. If you are saying that then fucking come out and say it rather than nudge wink snidey underhand ways of implying it.



Because Lewis has a habit of not committing to any position she might be called to defend later. That allows her and her ilk to shift their ground and hold or discard views on anything as and wen convenient. Typical politician's trick of never being pinned down to anything.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 24, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Helen Lewis lets her inner Blairite show: http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-l...g-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity


people get paid to write this shit


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## J Ed (Jul 24, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> people get paid to write this shit



Privately educated, Oxbridge liza-- err people get paid to write this shit


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## Bakunin (Jul 24, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Helen Lewis lets her inner Blairite show: http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-l...g-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity



Looking at that piece again, I notice there's no comment section for it. Is the writer not entirely convinced that comments would be sufficiently supportive? Afraid of people voicing an opinion different from her own, perhaps?

I think we should be told.


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## J Ed (Jul 24, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Because Lewis has a habit of not committing to any position she might be called to defend later. That allows her and her ilk to shift their ground and hold or discard views on anything as and wen convenient. Typical politician's trick of never being pinned down to anything.



Going through previous stuff by her it really is hard to pin her down on anything other than class solidarity with other rich and privileged women and support for transphobic feminists, even then that is massively qualified by mostly alleging that she is not a transphobic feminist she just spends all of her time being victimised by trans activists.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 24, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Going through previous stuff by her it really is hard to pin her down on anything other than class solidarity with other rich and privileged women and support for transphobic feminists, even then that is massively qualified by mostly alleging that she is not a transphobic feminist she just spends all of her time being victimised by trans activists.



While I don't dispute that there is a lot of online victimisation, I don't think any intelligent person could deny that or oppose it, I can't help thinking that professional victimhood exists as well. Accusations of bigotry and bullying can also be a useful way to shut down a debate that the accuser is losing, come to think of it.


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## J Ed (Jul 24, 2015)

On that issue she is just a bigot posing as a victim imo, in the same way that bigots BNP and some in UKIP say that the real victims of racism are those who dare to speak out against 'anti-white racism'.


----------



## cesare (Jul 24, 2015)

J Ed said:


> On that issue she is just a bigot posing as a victim imo, in the same way that bigots BNP and some in UKIP say that the real victims of racism are those who dare to speak out against 'anti-white racism'.


See also: "I'm not transphobic, I'm just playing devil's advocate"


----------



## rekil (Jul 24, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Going through previous stuff by her it really is hard to pin her down on anything other than class solidarity with other rich and privileged women and support for transphobic feminists, even then that is massively qualified by mostly alleging that she is not a transphobic feminist she just spends all of her time being victimised by trans activists.


This take was particularly tepid.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 24, 2015)

What on earth does "those who voted simply for more of the same etc" even mean? What relation does it bear to the election outcome?


----------



## cesare (Jul 24, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What on earth does "those who voted simply for more of the same etc" even mean? What relation does it bear to the election outcome?


Someone should point out to her that voting for a coalition wasn't a choice on the ballot papers.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 24, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I'm really enjoying it



Watching the Prada-Meinhof brigade going 'Oh shit, here come some actual left-wingers! Fuck, fuck, fuck, what the hell are we going to do against the genuine article!' is extremely edifying, yes.

The Prada-Meinhof brigade's leader, yesterday:


----------



## J Ed (Jul 24, 2015)

So Helen Lewis, still posing as a 'left-winger' is recommending Cass Sunstein in order to understand this stuff...

http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/



> Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama’s closest confidants.  Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama’s head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for “overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs.”  In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-”independent” advocates to “cognitively infiltrate” online groups and websites — as well as other activist groups — which advocate views that Sunstein deems “false conspiracy theories” about the Government.  This would be designed to increase citizens’ faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists.
> 
> ...
> 
> He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the Government’s messaging (on the ground that those who don’t believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government).  This program would target those advocating false “conspiracy theories,” which they define to mean: “an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role.”



Nasty dangerous shit, and you can see that she is dripping with that kind of paternalistic technocratic attitude.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 24, 2015)

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=199668



> In a striking empirical regularity, deliberation tends to move groups, and the individuals who compose them, toward a more extreme point in the direction indicated by their own predeliberation judgments. For example, people who are opposed to the minimum wage are likely, after talking to each other, to be still more opposed; people who tend to support gun control are likely, after discussion, to support gun control with considerable enthusiasm; people who believe that global warming is a serious problem are likely, after discussion, to insist on severe measures to prevent global warming. This general phenomenon -- group polarization -- has many implications for economic, political, and legal institutions. It helps to explain extremism, "radicalization," cultural shifts, and the behavior of political parties and religious organizations; it is closely connected to current concerns about the consequences of the Internet; it also helps account for feuds, ethnic antagonism, and tribalism. Group polarization bears on the conduct of government institutions, including juries, legislatures, courts, and regulatory commissions. There are interesting relationships between group polarization and social cascades, both informational and reputational. Normative implications are discussed, with special attention to political and legal institutions



Of course none of this 'group _polarization_' could ever apply to a political class who went to the same schools, the same universities and act as the constituent members and handmaidens of an oligarchy. Group _polarization_, just like 'virtue signalling' is something that only ordinary people can do.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 24, 2015)

The naturalistic assumption here and in the other piece is that her and and class are the normal ones - they are the ones that need pampering - that's just how nature intended.

The 9 million people (overwhelmingly w/c)  who stood by labour - not emotionally committed but using them as a last defence. Now she speaks for those defenders too. They always do. The 3 million lost w/c votes since 2001. All really oxbridge types with the same circular interests?

Keynes said "The class war will find me on the side of the educated bourgeoisie."  - he also  said, when he edited the NS, that he could write the whole thing on his own. Well here we go, anyone could write what they print now and they would be on the side of the educated bourgeoisie.


----------



## rekil (Jul 25, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...15/jul/23/museums-should-charge-entrance-fees
> 
> The unsayable truth: museums should charge entrance fees
> 
> ...


He also said this about the Abu Dhabi Louvre which as the Guardian itself reported, has been built with slave labour.


> Nothing excuses the inhuman working conditions that have been reported. But I suspect that when it opens, this audacious new museum will be admired as a world destination and artistic treasure house. And so it should be.
> 
> With any luck, this is the beginning of a global spread of great museums. The world needs a network of cultural oases on every continent, perhaps one day sharing all their collections. That would vindicate the democratic educational dream of the Enlightenment, from which the first world museums grew.


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## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2015)

In't he shocking. I'm shocked.


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## rekil (Jul 25, 2015)

Have some Oxbridge opinions why don't you.



Spoiler








Link blocked, bah.


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## The Pale King (Jul 25, 2015)

copliker said:


> He also said this about the Abu Dhabi Louvre which as the Guardian itself reported, has been built with slave labour.



Bloody hell. When you are raving about 'vindicating the educational dream of the enlightenment' (whatever that means) in regard to a plce built by slave labour, its time to put down the kool aid.


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> somewhere in cornwall. It's dedicated to displaying all the crafts and techniques the net-draggers of yesteryear used in their centuries old sea harvesting, its basically a  museum to a lost art when there was no engines and you feared the sea with a healthy respect rather than just plowing through it with a massive engine. But no, always the fucking beach so I get sand in my arse crack and my packed lunch
> 
> also it covers all the preservation and post-catch industry used to keep pilchads saleable over distance



Newlyn near Penzance. I might go next week.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2015)

There's a nice little maritime museum in Polperro, too, on site of old pilchard packing plant. Only small but full of interesting little pieces. Polperro's gorgeous too, spent a veh pleasant week there. 

 to pilchard oriented museums.


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## Libertad (Jul 27, 2015)

two sheds said:


> There's a nice little maritime museum in Polperro, too, on site of old pilchard packing plant. Only small but full of interesting little pieces. Polperro's gorgeous too, spent a veh pleasant week there.
> 
> to pilchard oriented museums.



A week in Polperro?


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## two sheds (Jul 27, 2015)

With a couple of neighbours out of season. Lansallos church is really interesting too - amazing carvings on the pew ends.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 27, 2015)

two sheds said:


> With a couple of neighbours out of season. Lansallos church is really interesting too - amazing carvings on the pew ends.



Yep it's a lovely church, I rebuilt and installed all the windows there after the fire. Slightly off topic


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2015)

Bloody hell  

proper job


----------



## Libertad (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2015)

It was a superb job altogether on the restoration - the wooden screen/door that was replaced was lovely piece of crafted work too. 

/end of derail


----------



## Libertad (Jul 27, 2015)

two sheds said:


> It was a superb job altogether on the restoration - the wooden screen/door that was replaced was lovely piece of crafted work too.
> 
> /end of derail



It is, all by Cornish craftsmen.  The chap that built the screen is a shipwright.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 29, 2015)

Given the recent online abuse directed at the muppet who shot Cecil the lion, has anyone asked any of the commentariat whether this too constitutes online bullying and trolling?

I would tweet Penny Dreadful and ask but she blocked me yonks ago.


----------



## toggle (Jul 29, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> nuff museums do charge anyway
> 
> one of my greatest pleasures when going round otherwise boring towns is going to odd little museums and finding something random and cool.



this place is full of them. an odd mix of china collections, local archaeology and industry and the 'wot we nicked on our holidays' 

pilchard museum is in newlyn. and there's some fantastic bits of artwork of the old fishing boats in the bay in the penlee.


----------



## toggle (Jul 29, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> While I don't dispute that there is a lot of online victimisation, I don't think any intelligent person could deny that or oppose it, I can't help thinking that professional victimhood exists as well. Accusations of bigotry and bullying can also be a useful way to shut down a debate that the accuser is losing, come to think of it.



it's also entirely possible to build status out of victimhood. it fits with the commentarriat habit of making the story about them, rather than about the story or people whose lives are actually affected by stuff. a bit of snide shittirring >twitterstorm>another series of articles about how it's all about them. i mean fuck the whole terf wars thing, it's not about transwomen or rad fems, a few choice comments on twitter and it can be all about soemthing really fucking important. her.



and i really am still feeling this book coming on.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 29, 2015)

The terf wars thing is really shit both sides are as bad as each other and I think both sides manage to inflict a lot of damage on quite vulnerable people. It seems more to be about finding scapegoats and posturing than on trying to work together on issues that affect both cis and trans women 

The radfems (many of them anyway) are also really blind to how damaging some of their views and the emphasis they place on relatively minor things can be sometimes, in my opinion.


----------



## toggle (Jul 29, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> The terf wars thing is really shit both sides are as bad as each other and I think both sides manage to inflict a lot of damage on quite vulnerable people. It seems more to be about finding scapegoats than on trying to work together on issues that affect both cis and trans women, on both sides



nope, seriously, it's about helen lewis.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2015)

toggle said:


> nope, seriously, it's about helen lewis.


Everybody knows it's about ethics in journalism


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Everybody knows it's about ethics in journalism


yeh the only way is ethicks


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

Ah, the gift that keeps on giving. How self-obsessed is this?:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-its-good-know-theres-still-commune-call-home


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 31, 2015)

*I asked my new friends if I could stay for a few days whilst my landlords dealt with a rat problem. I ended up staying forever.*

Fair play to her but she's lucky to have a landlord that actually deals with the rat problem instead of leaving us to (not that i'm having a go at her for that btw)


----------



## J Ed (Jul 31, 2015)

In this plutocrat's playground, thank god that it's still possible for someone who is merely extremely rich to play Red Star Marie Antoinette


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2015)

Didn't bother going past the first lie in the first line - "After a year of minor troublemaking in America"


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

With all that's going on in the world at the moment, all the crises affecting so many people in so many different and negative ways, I'm surprised that even Penny Dreadful didn't manage to acknowledge any of them by picking one and writing about it. Instead it's hundreds of words of self-referential 'All about me' garbage instead of returning with some actual reportage.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2015)

J Ed said:


> In this plutocrat's playground, thank god that it's still possible for someone who is merely extremely rich to play Red Star Marie Antoinette



I read that as "Red Star Marionette".


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

copliker said:


> Didn't bother going past the first lie in the first line - "After a year of minor troublemaking in America"


Somewhere in between the bathroom-cleaning rota and the decision to host queer dance parties as a community service, politics happened.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Ah, the gift that keeps on giving. How self-obsessed is this?:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-its-good-know-theres-still-commune-call-home



Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck off.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> With all that's going on in the world at the moment, all the crises affecting so many people in so many different and negative ways, I'm surprised that even Penny Dreadful didn't manage to acknowledge any of them by picking one and writing about it. Instead it's hundreds of words of self-referential 'All about me' garbage instead of returning with some actual reportage.



_It is no secret that London, even more than most major world cities, has become all but uninhabitable for young professionals, young unprofessionals, artists, writers, entrepreneurs - all the people, in short, who make a city more than just a coincidence of twelve million people breathing the same sooty air. _

Don't forget, you and your problems don't matter. But for this cavalcade of cunts we'd just be a few million scumbags staggering drunkenly around London as if it were a giant Wetherspoons on a Friday after work rather than a magical background for Hipsters and the lifestylist poor to float around having really profound experiences and doing 'politics'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

london is two cities


----------



## YouSir (Jul 31, 2015)

Also people who're actually doing something interesting or worthwhile rarely have to bang on at such fucking length about how interesting and worthwhile the thing they're doing is. Unless of course deep down they know that they're just playing at life despite having a fucking cavernous gap where any sort of real personality or worth should be. But that wouldn't apply here, no siree.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> london is two cities



London is one city with a couple of irritating, puss spewing skin infections.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I read that as "Red Star Marionette".


 I had an uncle who once played for Red Star Belgrade


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I had an uncle who once played for Red Star Belgrade



Great club. C'mon then, name names.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I had an uncle who once played for Red Star Belgrade



Billy Bragg reference?


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2015)

I had another go... 



> Tottenham is completely gone, and in its place is simply a smoking crater and a giant hologram of Ian Duncan Smith's head, cackling in an endless loop. No wonder all the liberals are leaving if they can.



No. Lazy shit. And a 'revolutionary socialist' from the 'autonomist tradition' fretting about the plight of liberals is it. Ffffs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Billy Bragg reference?


 his best song as we all know


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> his best song as we all know



Oh yeah


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2015)

Any excuse to post this



Spoiler


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2015)

I've wiped all of Bragg's tunes from my memory with the exception of New England and Kirsty did that better.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2015)

_Entrepreneurs?
Really? 
Entrepreneurs_?

_In there?_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Ah, the gift that keeps on giving. How self-obsessed is this?:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-its-good-know-theres-still-commune-call-home


 
Doesn't a year just fly by


----------



## Favelado (Jul 31, 2015)

> I live with nine other people in the gutted remains of a music storage warehouse in Brent. None of us are from the area, and many of us aren’t even from the country, but we are conclusively failing at the whole gentrification thing, given that most of us earn significantly less than our neighbours, none of whom would want to live in the warehouse given the perennially harrowing state of the plumbing.




Arrrrrrrggggg! You're RICH. You're from a rich family and you work as a journalist in one of the world's richest cities. How dare she write as if she works part-time in a chippy in Sunderland or something. She gentrifies everything she looks at. Just because you're neighbours are rich, it doesn't mean you aren't a stinkingly wealthy pig-dog as well.

The cheek of it. The fucking bare-faced cheek.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2015)

Favelado said:


> Arrrrrrrggggg! You're RICH. You're from a rich family and you work as a journalist in one of the world's richest cities. How dare she write as if she works part-time in a chippy in Sunderland or something. She gentrifies everything she looks at. Just because you're neighbours are rich, it doesn't mean you aren't a stinkingly wealthy pig-dog as well.
> 
> The cheek of it. The fucking bare-faced cheek.


 FUCK YOU, NORM!


----------



## Favelado (Jul 31, 2015)

What was her income last year? Anyone here think it was anything less than 30k? No chance. She's doing fine and playing at being poor again (Guardian article about houseshares springs to mind). It's a sick insult to British people who are suffering.


----------



## campanula (Jul 31, 2015)

Fuck - what a solipsistic pile of garbage. Utter drivel. The tone of smug, self-congratulatory narcissism is truly unedifying...and this is supposedly journalism - a 'look at me, I am so, so...special' piece of romanticised rubbish...with not so much as a mention of the real travails of house shares with 9 other (obviously self-obsessed nitwits) - pink tutu ffs. What about the toilet cleaning! And what are the arrangements for leasing this, (ahem) commune...because I am pretty certain it will not be the usual outer London squat scenario which I, and 3 decades later, my daughter, are so familiar with (harrassment, bailiffs, insecurity, anxiety, horrible living conditions...although it should be remembered, it is still summer - all these utopias look different in a gloomy english winter with no electricity). And, of course, there is the question of choice...or lack of it.WANKER.


----------



## rekil (Jul 31, 2015)

Favelado said:


> What was her income last year? Anyone here think it was anything less than 30k? No chance. She's doing fine and playing at being poor again (Guardian article about houseshares springs to mind). It's a sick insult to British people who are suffering.


She was in Harvard for the last year on the sort of freebie that's reserved for society's officer class but she could supplement her income by getting a day job or by churning out more content - 4 or 5 ar'icles a month isn't very good - and maybe she'd get better rates if she wasn't a scab working for an anti union paper.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

copliker said:


> and maybe she'd get better rates if she wasn't a scab working for an anti union paper.



Ah yes, the supposedly 'left wing' New Statesman. The same 'left wing' New Statesman that steadfastly refuses to recognise the National Union of Journalists. Hardly, I'd have thought, the natural home for anybody with a proper interest in issues like workers rights and so on.


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2015)

I had a date with an ex-flatmate of penny's last year, who was living with her when she was first writing those pity-me breadline stories a few years ago. When they lived together, they shared a comfortable semi-detached house in suburban London: everyone else in the house was a bit  when they read the articles as they didn't recognise what she was writing about at all. 

Would you believe.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2015)

killer b said:


> I had a date with an ex-flatmate of penny's last year...


I'd like to think you didn't go on this date purely as an intelligence-gathering mission


----------



## J Ed (Jul 31, 2015)

Favelado said:


> Arrrrrrrggggg! You're RICH. You're from a rich family and you work as a journalist in one of the world's richest cities. How dare she write as if she works part-time in a chippy in Sunderland or something. She gentrifies everything she looks at. Just because you're neighbours are rich, it doesn't mean you aren't a stinkingly wealthy pig-dog as well.
> 
> The cheek of it. The fucking bare-faced cheek.



Rich people always think that they aren't rich because they compare themselves to other rich people rather than ordinary people who they regard as not being people at all.


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'd like to think you didn't go on this date purely as an intelligence-gathering mission


I pretty much did tbh.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

killer b said:


> I pretty much did tbh.



***Awaits endless Twitter accusations of stalking and cyberbullying.***


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

Great news guiz- Frank Turners got a new album coming out. Just heard a tune off it. Its the same one he always does, you know, shouty bit, tortured soul bit, boringly trad guitar given a polish.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2015)

killer b said:


> I pretty much did tbh.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Ah yes, the supposedly 'left wing' New Statesman. The same 'left wing' New Statesman that steadfastly refuses to recognise the National Union of Journalists. Hardly, I'd have thought, the natural home for anybody with a proper interest in issues like workers rights and so on.



Even the Torygraph recognises the NUJ and probably has some actual leftists working on it, unlike the New $$tatesman which is a right-wing liberal scab paper written for fellow right-wing liberal scabs who want to convince themselves and other right-wing liberal scabs at dinner parties that they are still the open minded progressive people that they never were at university.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Rich people always think that they aren't rich because they compare themselves to other rich people rather than ordinary people who they regard as not being people at all.



“Many men of course became extremely rich, but this was perfectly natural and nothing to be ashamed of because no one was really poor – at least no one worth speaking of.”


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2015)

Two years ago she was not living in some hippy commune in Brent. We'd have been subjected to endless stories about it otherwise.

Clearly her year at Harvard taught her how to write fiction.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 31, 2015)

When was she living with Lezard?


----------



## campanula (Jul 31, 2015)

Oh I absolutely guarantee that within a decade, she will be living the life of some middle class surburbanite with a cleaner and nanny, have become totally right wing and will still be droning on endlessly and witlessly about  her amusingly 'radical'  younger self, ho ho, and no doubt being paid to spout vacuous rubbish.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

campanula said:


> Oh I absolutely guarantee that within a decade, she will be living the life of some middle class surburbanite with a cleaner and nanny, have become totally right wing and will still be droning on endlessly and witlessly about  her amusingly 'radical'  younger self, ho ho, and no doubt being paid to spout vacuous rubbish.



Basically Julie Burchill only with trendier slang.


----------



## toggle (Jul 31, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Two years ago she was not living in some hippy commute in Brent. We'd have been subjected to endless stories about it otherwise.
> 
> Clearly her year at Harvard taught her how to write fiction.



more about writing fiction.


----------



## Favelado (Jul 31, 2015)

campanula said:


> Oh I absolutely guarantee that within a decade, she will be living the life of some middle class surburbanite with a cleaner and nanny, have become totally right wing and will still be droning on endlessly and witlessly about  her amusingly 'radical'  younger self, ho ho, and no doubt being paid to spout vacuous rubbish.



Lifestyle journalist is her future. I've always thought that. Articles about trendy home decor and how she couldn't live with whatever the 20s equivalent of a good ice-cream maker will be.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

we will have hit peak Ice Cream by then and only groan journos and their ilk will be able to afford so much as a Feast


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2015)

I'm disappointed that Atheism+ has gone down. I kept wanting to ask them whether they thought that tattoos represented cultural appropriation.

[/derail]


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> we will have hit peak Ice Cream by then and only groan journos and their ilk will be able to afford so much as a Feast



Please tell me that Toffee Crumbles won't be unavailable.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Please tell me that Toffee Crumbles won't be unavailable.


in the wasteland to come there will only be Chomps and for the ones useful to the ruling class, choc ices


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> in the wasteland to come there will only be Chomps and for the ones useful to the ruling class, choc ices



Oh. Some brave new world this'll turn out to be.


----------



## toggle (Jul 31, 2015)

Favelado said:


> Lifestyle journalist is her future. I've always thought that. Articles about trendy home decor and how she couldn't live with whatever the 20s equivalent of a good ice-cream maker will be.




 the next islington tornado story , 


she described how she ran inside in her [insert brand name here] pumps, clutching her [insert brand name here] bag and reached for her [insert brand name here] phone to call her editor and then her darling who works for [insert brand name here], in that order. we sat sipping coffee in [insert brand name here] and talked of how the danger reminded her of her long ago days in occupy. She uses a napkin to wipe cream from her [insert brand name here] manicure



and i've got to stop before I puke.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Oh. Some brave new world this'll turn out to be.


in the grim darkness of next week there is only crap confectionary


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> in the grim darkness of next week there is only crap confectionary



Not even pickled onion Space Raiders will remain..?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Not even pickled onion Space Raiders will remain..?


those snacks will survive even a nuclear war, you know this. Stuffed as they are wit cockroach chitin and MSG. But imagine such a future, where the only crisps are space raiders and chomps the only chocolate. Pass the cyanide capsules please.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 1, 2015)

Werther's Originals will still be available though, they'll be a staple of the People's Ration and still no fucker will touch 'em.


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2015)

.


DotCommunist said:


> Somewhere in between the bathroom-cleaning rota and the decision to host queer dance parties as a community service, politics happened.


"Living in a house gutted edgy borough warehouse with people who aren't your rents is a little bit communism."


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Werther's Originals will still be available though, they'll be a staple of the People's Ration and still no fucker will touch 'em.


anyone who does hangs on the yewtree


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 1, 2015)

Belushi said:


> When was she living with Lezard?


I tracked down a few posts on the Alex callinicos handbags thread that looked like she was lezard's housemate in January 2013.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

vodka, radishes an y-fronts.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> vodka, radishes an y-fronts.


That's some shopping list. Got a big night planned?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> That's some shopping list. Got a big night planned?


performance art/booksigning fusion


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I've wiped all of Bragg's tunes from my memory with the exception of New England and Kirsty did that better.


I still rate 'which side are you on boy?'. It has little musical value but its a good question/chant


----------



## Libertad (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I still rate 'which side are you on boy?'. It has little musical value but its a good question/chant



Not a patch on either Pete Seeger or Utah Phillips' versions and they have the added bonus of being proper class warriors instead of some lifestyle socialist wanker.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Not a patch on either Pete Seeger or Utah Phillips' versions and they have the added bonus of being proper class warriors instead of some lifestyle socialist wanker.


heh, and heres me thinking it was his original. Should have known the queen loving fauxcialist wasn't doing an original.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

You really need to check out the florence reece original and read of the conditions in which it was written.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> heh, and heres me thinking it was his original. Should have known the queen loving fauxcialist wasn't doing an original.



Tip: acquaint yourself with the IWW songbook Cmbbe.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

that fucking smashes braggs cover.

harlan county again. I do need to look more at this. Theres a joe hill connection here I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> that fucking smashes braggs cover.
> 
> harlan county again. I do need to look more at this. Theres a joe hill connection here I think.



He was well dead when reece wrote it.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> He was well dead when reece wrote it.



"He's not dead" says I.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> He was well dead when reece wrote it.


the copper bosses etc

but he was for so long an influence on american unionism in its...mythos? its heart rather than head side iyswim. You know I'm going to ask you for a book now. Even if you haven't got it, the title will do. I'll dig it up. 

e2a on the struggle she spoke of and sings about obvs!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

Libertad said:


> "He's not dead" says I.


I set 'em up...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> the copper bosses etc
> 
> but he was for so long an influence on american unionism in its...mythos? its heart rather than head side iyswim. You know I'm going to ask you for a book now. Even if you haven't got it, the title will do. I'll dig it up.


You want the book by franklin rosemont on him (and the culture of the iww) , one of the finest books I've ever read.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 1, 2015)

Here you go DotCommunist https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Joe_Hill.html?id=y5ceAQAAIAAJ&hl=en


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

ta butchers, recon I can stretch to the small change needed for that come weds


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 1, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Here you go DotCommunist https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Joe_Hill.html?id=y5ceAQAAIAAJ&hl=en


 just been looking at the very same page. Think I'll get a physical copy. history/politics are easier to read without distraction in print for me.


----------



## Limerick Red (Aug 1, 2015)

"I know that somewhere in this neoliberal theme-park there is at least one bolthole for freaks, perverts, bohemians, migrants, angry feminists and revolutionaries to camp out and drink tea while the rest of the capital circles the plughole of socio-economic insanity."

She makes out like it's easy, when I first moved to london, no one put pervert on their gumtree ads , it was hard work and a bit of luck I eventually managed to find a flatmate who constantly walked round with his lad in his hand watchin porn on his phone while making tea for the rest of the house!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 1, 2015)

Limerick Red said:


> "She makes out like it's easy, when I first moved to london, no one put pervert on their gumtree ads , it was hard work and a bit of luck I eventually managed to find a flatmate who constantly walked round with his lad in his hand watchin porn on his phone while making tea for the rest of the house!



Hope you never asked for cream in your coffee.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

Why is being a pervert, 'freak' or 'bohemian' considered oppositional to neoliberalism?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Why is being a pervert, 'freak' or 'bohemian' considered oppositional to neoliberalism?


It's like they're living in 50s alabama and the last 70 years never happened. Capital has made  a market of this stuff - it's one of the internal enclosures that capital requires - and this mindset is actually part of the cultural legitimation of it.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> It's like they're living in 50s alabama and the last 70 years never happened. Capital has made  a market of this stuff - it's one of the internal enclosures that capital requires - and this mindset is actually part of the cultural legitimation of it.



Yes, sort of like doing yoga or writing for the New Statesman!


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I tracked down a few posts on the Alex callinicos handbags thread that looked like she was lezard's housemate in January 2013.



she's been going on about how her attitudes to gender make her a special snowflake for a few years now. but in a way that is still her trademark of it all being about how wonderful she is for not being an arsehole to other people. got to think she would have used some of this material before if it was so easily available.


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Hope you never asked for cream in your coffee.



wish i'd never shown you that book now


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Why is being a pervert, 'freak' or 'bohemian' considered oppositional to neoliberalism?



because they see neoliberalism as standing in favour of traditional family values. if they stand in opposition to those, then they are achieving protest points by going to a party and getting laid. it's activism without effort. 

how much the neoliberal parties are actually wedded to the nuclear family ideal rather than wedded to it's use as part of the striver v. scrounger discourse, i'm not certain. i'm sure there are those who believe that one family is parents comfortably ensconced in elderly care facility, one botox enhanced wife to look good at public events, make that 2, you're allowed a second when the first stops being a sufficient as arm ornament, 3 obedient children in PR internships, and 4 silicon enhanced mistresses for funtimes. but i don't think that all who espouse the value of the nuclear family as the only acceptable lifestyle really believe in it anymore. so the bohemian set are protesting against something that is an empty shell and a distraction.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

I dunno. I am sure that there are plenty of people who see these things as interlinked but the two people I know who have gone on to work as investment bankers are gay and use drugs regularly, they despise social conservatives just as much if not moreso than the average left-winger but hold the line completely on neoliberalism. According to them, I have no idea because they are really my only direct window on that world, being a 'libertarian pro-free market' (a term they unironically apply to themselves despite supporting bank bailouts) gay bloke that uses drugs is not uncommon high up in the financial sector.

My own experience of being at the very bottom of the financial services industry food chain in a call centre is that while institutional classism, anti-scrounger rhetoric and to an extent racism are all common gay rights, particularly those of gay men, are taken very seriously and most banks have 'LGBT societies'. These societies operate a bit like the societies do at university and do make peoples lives better in some ways, for example when a trans temp at Aviva in Sheffield was sacked and the IWW picketed the Aviva office there were people in the society there that voiced support for the sacked worker, though none joined the picket line. They also often include things like fast-tracking people on that basis in order to promote equality within the organisation.


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I dunno. I am sure that there are plenty of people who see these things as interlinked but the two people I know who have gone on to work as investment bankers are gay and use drugs regularly, they despise social conservatives just as much if not moreso than the average left-winger but hold the line completely on neoliberalism. According to them, I have no idea because they are really my only direct window on that world, being a 'libertarian pro-free market' (a word they unironically apply to themselves despite supporting bank bailouts) gay bloke that uses drugs is not uncommon high up in the financial sector.
> 
> My own experience of being at the very bottom of the financial services industry food chain in a call centre is that while institutional classism, anti-scrounger rhetoric and to an extent racism are all common gay rights, particularly those of gay men, are taken very seriously and most banks have 'LGBT societies'. These societies operate a bit like the societies do at university and do make peoples lives a lot better, for example when a trans temp at Aviva in Sheffield was sacked and the IWW picketed the Aviva office there were people in the society there that voiced support for the sacked worker, though none joined the picket line. They also often include things like fast-tracking people on that basis in order to promote equality within the organisation.



yep.

i don't think rejection of herteronormativity is anything like the act of rebellion they claim it is. 

but ti's something that LP can talk lots about. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, woman, moar woman, sex, moar woman, bohemian commune moar woman. she's playing just enough of the fantasy card to get attention and just little enough that it's not actually voyeuristic. 

she may not be capable of many things, but she is reasonably skilled as s self publicist.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

Neoliberalism is very much capable of integrating this stuff. Look at David Cameron and other modern Tories like Nick Boles, he has a civil partner in the IDF, he makes no secret of it - in fact he claimed Hebrew lessons on expenses! It's mostly the anachronistic right-wingers who flat out hate gay people.

Of course, if you are gay and poor then you are scum like the other poor people. She doesn't mention those people as being a part of her bolthole though.


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Neoliberalism is very much capable of integrating this stuff. Look at David Cameron and other modern Tories like Nick Boles, he has a civil partner in the IDF, he makes no secret of it - in fact he claimed Hebrew lessons on expenses! It's mostly the anachronistic right-wingers who flat out hate gay people.
> 
> Of course, if you are gay and poor then you are scum like the other poor people. She doesn't mention those people as being a part of her bolthole though.



which is where the bohemian set are fighting against a 25-30 year old tory manifesto. cameron isn't running back to basics. he isn't peter lilley making young single pregnant women out as public enemy no 1. this lot aren't wedded to christian morality. it's all about the money for them, who cares who you fuck as long as you vote tory and pay the taxes that can be skimmed off into the programs offering well renumerated non exec direcs.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

IMO they are fighting against a fictional idea of what the Tory party is because they are quite relaxed with the actual Tory party since they are some of the few that actually benefit financially from it.


----------



## campanula (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Of course, if you are gay and poor then you are scum like the other poor people. She doesn't mention those people as being a part of her bolthole though.



No, they sound like a horrible bunch of trustafarians to be honest (shudder). It is pitiful really, this whole self-publicist thing while pretending to be somehow engaged and active within a wider society when really it is just the exact same social class she probably knew at school...and is actually commodifying this 'experience' . It is the sheer lying, inauthentic amount of manufactured outrage she somehow feels she has (earned) the right to convey while simultaneously living a life of ease and protection.  (Toothgrinding again).


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

I actually can't believe you're now criticising me for not reading and responding to all 209 pages in their entirety. For fuck's sake, I work for a living, scroungers.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 1, 2015)

> Of course, if you are gay and poor then you are scum like the other poor people. She doesn't mention those people as being a part of her bolthole though.


Oh she does, the programmers, engineering graduates, and "young professionals, young unprofessionals, artists, writers, entrepreneurs" she lives with let young LGBT people "in need of emergency housing" sleep in a store cupboard when they need to.
Which, well, I'm not criticising them for that - its good, its just the fact she has to mention it (look how charitable she is - though you do wonder if she couldn't have stumped up for an extra room for them) while mentioning its "always occupied" (LGBT homelessness is a big problem/don't bother asking her to stay the night - they're full).  It also indicates that its not a squat (if it was, you'd show the young homelesss LGBT people how to break a squat for themselves) and not a proper co-op or social-housing based commune (both of which the young people could claim housing benefit for on the same basis as social housing once a room came up for them).  I mean great for her that she has somewhere interesting to live with people she gets on with (though I don't know why she thinks we're that interested), but its like she's tone-deaf around both the current struggles around housing and the forms of housing that came out of housing struggles in the past.

I also like how she talks about the "straight, white, monogamous man" as if not being monogamous would negate his privilege as much as being black or gay.


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

crossthebreeze said:


> Oh she does, the programmers, engineering graduates, and "young professionals, young unprofessionals, artists, writers, entrepreneurs" she lives with let young LGBT people "in need of emergency housing" sleep in a store cupboard when they need to.
> 
> I also like how she talks about the "straight, white, monogamous man" as if not being monogamous would negate his privilege as much as being black or gay.



it's the usual problem with the bastardised form of intersectional politics they espouse. it is all boiled down to which special characterirstics you have, which is one of the reasons you get people like her tripping over themelves to identify queer credentials. it's another rung on the anti-privilage ladder. 

but unlike where intersectional politics came from, it completely lacks class conciousness; won't recognise that wealth has always bought a lot of 'licence to be different', to be black, to be gay, to be female and to be in charge of your life and be safe. and the community spokespeople are of this sort. not the people at the bottom of the pile whose multiple intersecting expereinces of being shat on were supposed to mean they got consulted about how to simultaniously fix gender/race/class division and discrimination. 



> Which, well, I'm not criticising them for that - its good, its just the fact she has to mention it (look how charitable she is - though you do wonder if she couldn't have stumped up for an extra room for them) while mentioning its "always occupied" (LGBT homelessness is a big problem/don't bother asking her to stay the night - they're full). * It also indicates that its not a squat (if it was, you'd show the young homelesss LGBT people how to break a squat for themselves) and not a proper co-op or social-housing based commune (both of which the young people could claim housing benefit for on the same basis as social housing once a room came up for them).* I mean great for her that she has somewhere interesting to live with people she gets on with (though I don't know why she thinks we're that interested), but its like she's tone-deaf around both the current struggles around housing and the forms of housing that came out of housing struggles in the past.



nope, it's the charitable offer of their table leavings, the bit of space none of them want to live in. that makes them abkle to say how great and charitable they are without actually having to give anything up. or help anyone do something for  themselves. it's about making her feel good.


----------



## red & green (Aug 1, 2015)

I don't know what she is on about half the time


----------



## cesare (Aug 1, 2015)

red & green said:


> I don't know what she is on about half the time


Yeah, same here. Bores me to tears.


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2015)

cesare said:


> Yeah, same here. Bores me to tears.



I get it, cause i've skimmed past enough of the stuff it's based on to recognize what it is a self serving form of (eg, I picked up a book on the political use of the idea of the family in verso's last sale and reading this stuff stops insomnia becoming insanity) . but i suspect that you (as in someone who has better things to do with their life than read a bunch of critiques of various strands of neoliberal theories and policies) not getting it is part of the point, it's about proving all the stuff she thinks she knows, her own superiority. the other part of the point, the bit where you're supposed to have turned into an ego worshipping sheep seems to have failed somewhat spectacularly. but there's more than enough out there to give her the attention she craves.


----------



## red & green (Aug 1, 2015)

Just comes across like she thinks she's special - not interested tbh


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2015)

campanula said:


> Fuck - what a solipsistic pile of garbage. Utter drivel. The tone of smug, self-congratulatory narcissism is truly unedifying...and this is supposedly journalism - a 'look at me, I am so, so...special' piece of romanticised rubbish...with not so much as a mention of the real travails of house shares with 9 other (obviously self-obsessed nitwits) - pink tutu ffs. What about the toilet cleaning! And what are the arrangements for leasing this, (ahem) commune...because I am pretty certain it will not be the usual outer London squat scenario which I, and 3 decades later, my daughter, are so familiar with (harrassment, bailiffs, insecurity, anxiety, horrible living conditions...although it should be remembered, it is still summer - all these utopias look different in a gloomy english winter with no electricity). And, of course, there is the question of choice...or lack of it.WANKER.



Radical chic, its got a long pedigree, I used to think it was ok, but these are desperate times and there are many desperate people, my friend has a boat in Goole and she is aware of sanctioned families nearly starving.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 1, 2015)

treelover said:


> Radical chic, its got a long pedigree, I used to think it was ok, but these are desperate times and there are many desperate people, my friend has a boat in Goole and she is aware of sanctioned families nearly starving.



You wouldn't think so, according to that bilge.


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## cesare (Aug 1, 2015)

If people weren't at risk of starving there wouldn't be food banks ffs


----------



## brogdale (Aug 1, 2015)

treelover said:


> Radical chic, its got a long pedigree, I used to think it was ok, but these are desperate times and there are many desperate people, my friend has a boat in Goole and she is aware of sanctioned families nearly starving.


But does the boat in Goole have a "_former storage cupboard has been repurposed as a crash-pad for young LGBT people in need of emergency housing._"?


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 1, 2015)

Forget food banks, the poor should eat their children. It's a modest proposal.


----------



## Coolfonz (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Neoliberalism is very much capable of integrating this stuff. Look at David Cameron and other modern Tories like Nick Boles, he has a civil partner in the IDF, he makes no secret of it - in fact he claimed Hebrew lessons on expenses! It's mostly the anachronistic right-wingers who flat out hate gay people.
> 
> Of course, if you are gay and poor then you are scum like the other poor people. She doesn't mention those people as being a part of her bolthole though.



Lots of experience with these people. A lot of market-heads are `socially liberal`, vote Labour/Lib Dem and all that wank, but in my experience class prejudice is rampant. That includes class prejudice towards other `neo-liberals` who work alongside them.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 1, 2015)

red & green said:


> Just comes across like she thinks she's special - not interested tbh


tbf she/they are pretty special...


> The only way my friends and I could find to buck the trend was to *improvise a whole new way of living*, where we pool resources and share our labour, from carpentry to cake-baking.  *Imagine our surprise when we found created a post-capitalist anarcho-syndicalist utopia entirely by accident.*


Just imagine...


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2015)

brogdale said:


> But does the boat in Goole have a "_former storage cupboard has been repurposed as a crash-pad for young LGBT people in need of emergency housing._"?



No,  my friend is a saint, she feeds people, gives them work she doesn't really need doing, looks after the kids so the mums can look for bits of work, etc.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Neoliberalism is very much capable of integrating this stuff. Look at David Cameron and other modern Tories like Nick Boles, he has a civil partner in the IDF, he makes no secret of it - in fact he claimed Hebrew lessons on expenses! It's mostly the anachronistic right-wingers who flat out hate gay people.
> 
> Of course, if you are gay and poor then you are scum like the other poor people. She doesn't mention those people as being a part of her bolthole though.



Indeed. Her perception and description of the workers required by a functioning conurbation appears quite telling...


> It is no secret that London, even more than most major world cities, has become all but uninhabitable for *young professionals, young unprofessionals, artists, writers, entrepreneurs* - all the people, in short, who make a city more than just a coincidence of twelve million people breathing the same sooty air.


So fuck off anyone who isn't _young, _a 'creative' or (ffs) an "_entrepreneur"._


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 1, 2015)

Buckaroo said:


> Forget food banks, the poor should eat their children. It's a modest proposal.


Careful now. Someone might tolchok your Gulliver for talking like that.


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> It's like they're living in 50s alabama and the last 70 years never happened. Capital has made  a market of this stuff - it's one of the internal enclosures that capital requires - and this mindset is actually part of the cultural legitimation of it.


Helen Lewis's thing about 'virtue signalling' struck me as being a bit of a passive aggressive attack on LP, since she referred to a Matt Bruenig article which linked to a piece having a go at our old friend Malcolm Harris and his generational war guff and featuring an exchange involving urban75 poster and revolutionary socialist lauriepenny.


----------



## cesare (Aug 1, 2015)

treelover said:


> No,  my friend is a saint, she feeds people, gives them work she doesn't really need doing, looks after the kids so the mums can look for bits of work, etc.


Why the fuck are you putting your friend in this thread.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 1, 2015)

copliker said:


> Helen Lewis's thing about 'virtue signalling' struck me as being a bit of a passive aggressive attack on LP, since she referred to a Matt Bruenig article which linked to a piece having a go at our old friend Malcolm Harris and his generational war guff and featuring an exchange involving urban75 poster and revolutionary socialist lauriepenny.



Don't forget his idiotic scab rhetoric, considering the fact he calls himself left-wing while undermining organised labour maybe Helen Lewis should give him a regular column, he'd fit in


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Don't forget his idiotic scab rhetoric, considering the fact he calls himself left-wing while undermining organised labour maybe Helen Lewis should give him a regular column, he'd fit in


He seems unhappy that the Onion is doing a Vice pisstake. (edging a bit too close to home - all the sads)


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 2, 2015)

copliker said:


> He seems unhappy that the Onion is doing a Vice pisstake. (edging a bit too close to home - all the sads)


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 2, 2015)

ooft, that Penny Red article. She really needs to look up "self-awareness" in the dictionary. Just an impotent squirming bagful of lifestyle-choice eels.

I've only really just noticed how big this thread has become...I did give her slight credit for coming on here to face butchersapron with a hangover on a greentop...sadly after the Somerset curmudgeon had trapped her lbw in the first over the rest of her "contributions" featured suggestions that the other team were full of psychos, and the umpires were misogynist.

Still not as bad as that garbage she's just penned, though.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 2, 2015)

steeplejack said:


> ooft, that Penny Red article. She really needs to look up "self-awareness" in the dictionary. Just an impotent squirming bagful of lifestyle-choice eels.
> 
> I've only really just noticed how big this thread has become...I did give her slight credit for coming on here to face butchersapron with a hangover on a greentop...sadly after the Somerset curmudgeon had trapped her lbw in the first over the rest of her "contributions" featured suggestions that the other team were full of psychos, and the umpires were misogynist.
> 
> Still not as bad as that garbage she's just penned, though.


All of us were misogynistic though, including the women. And most matter how many people explained that actually no we weren't,  she just flounced off declaring us all to be anyway.

Not forgetting she works for a living, of course.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 2, 2015)

steeplejack said:


> Still not as bad as that garbage she's just penned, though.



Although, to be fair, 'Saudade' and 'Fifty Shades of Socialist feminism' have been the crowning turds in the waterpipe thus far.



equationgirl said:


> All of us were misogynistic though, including the women. And most matter how many people explained that actually no we weren't,  she just flounced off declaring us all to be anyway.
> 
> Not forgetting she works for a living, of course.



I remember it well.

And lots of people work for a living and still have serious difficulties meeting rent and bills, not forgetting the people who can't work but are arbitrarily cured by Atos, until they die anyway.


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## steeplejack (Aug 2, 2015)

Yeah, imagine waking up in the morning and realising that you're Yasmin Alibhai-Brown in waiting.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 2, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Although, to be fair, 'Saudade' and 'Fifty Shades of Socialist feminism' have been the crowning turds in the waterpipe thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was tongue in cheek, the works for a living comment, it was thrown at us the first chance she got. Didn't well for her.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 2, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It was tongue in cheek, the works for a living comment, it was thrown at us the first chance she got. Didn't well for her.



Nor did 'Saudade,' as I recall. Truly the William Shatner of modern verse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> All of us were misogynistic though, including the women. And most matter how many people explained that actually no we weren't,  she just flounced off declaring us all to be anyway.
> 
> Not forgetting she works for a living, of course.



She also denounced SpineyNorman as a racist, don't forget!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> She also denounced SpineyNorman as a racist, don't forget!



And only backed off when there was a chance of being sued, if I remember rightly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> And only backed off when there was a chance of being sued, if I remember rightly.



Yep.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep.



Call me cynical but, when a hack only backs off and grovels under threat of legal action, that doesn't say much for their sincerity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Call me cynical but, when a hack only backs off and grovels under threat of legal action, that doesn't say much for their sincerity.



Her own writing doesn't say much for her sincerity, mate!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Her own writing doesn't say much for her sincerity, mate!



'These are my deeply-held, fundamental, inviolate principles but, if you don't like them, I have others.'


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> She also denounced SpineyNorman as a racist, don't forget!


How could I forget her extremely offensive yet completely untrue accusation?  

Her brief time here went very scorched earth in the end.


----------



## rekil (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> How could I forget her extremely offensive yet completely untrue accusation?
> 
> Her brief time here went very scorched earth in the end.


3 months later she was sanctifying a nazi.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2015)

copliker said:


> 3 months later she was sanctifying a nazi.


Oh yes, now I remember. A fervent supporter of weev,  even after all his dodgyness was exposed.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Oh yes, now I remember. A fervent supporter of weev,  even after all his dodgyness was exposed.



'I don't defend racists. I only defend M&S racists.'


----------



## weepiper (Aug 3, 2015)

It's a kind of cultural appropriation, isn't it? Rich people playing at poverty. Because it's poverty and low wages that makes most people have to live in big flatshares rather than choice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/realestate/the-millennial-commune.html

I mean, this is not reality, is it?



> Prospective residents answer probing questions like “What are your passions?” and “Tell us your story (Excite us!).” If accepted, tenants live in what the company’s promotional materials describe as a “highly curated community of like-minded individuals.” In other words, they rent a room in an apartment in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, but with opportunities for social and spiritual growth, like dinner parties and meditation sessions.





> In order to charge residents top dollar for living with others, bells and whistles are in order. Pure House, for example, offers a premium $4,000-a-month package that includes massage, yoga, fresh fruits and vegetables, personal coaching and wellness counseling.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 3, 2015)

> “passionately disrupting the housing industry by reimagining its process, product and price points and curating an all-inclusive cosmopolitan living experience designed for today’s creative class.”


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm seeing more of the word curator applied to collections of people rather than information and objects. Seems very pretentious to me.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 3, 2015)

bit patrick bateman ennit


----------



## Belushi (Aug 3, 2015)

All those years I had housemates turns out I was 





> co-living in an ad-hoc community


 :thumbs :


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 3, 2015)

for 4 k a month it'd better include more than yoga and fruit, you can roll my spliffs and laugh at my jokes while you are there


----------



## Belushi (Aug 3, 2015)

It doesn't sound that much different to Laurie's set up on the previous page tbh


----------



## rekil (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Oh yes, now I remember. A fervent supporter of weev,  even after all his dodgyness was exposed.


It was all out there already - years of it before the nazi blog piece appeared. While she was most likely too shallow and lazy to do a bit of googling to get the full picture, she knew enough ('I thought he was trolling') but didn't care. And Paul Mason doesn't care that she and crababble didn't care. He needs an intervention tbh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Oh yes, now I remember. A fervent supporter of weev,  even after all his dodgyness was exposed.



She had dug herself in so deep with that one that she couldn't do a standard reverse-ferret. If she'd done a modicum of research before jumping on the weev-supporting wiberal bandwagon, she could have avoided showing herself up as an utter arse, but no! She *had* to jump on the bandwagon!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2015)

weepiper said:


> It's a kind of cultural appropriation, isn't it? Rich people playing at poverty. Because it's poverty and low wages that makes most people have to live in big flatshares rather than choice.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/realestate/the-millennial-commune.html
> 
> I mean, this is not reality, is it?



Well, it's *a* "reality", but I doubt it's one many working class and/or precariously-housed and/or *actually-poor* people share.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> but no! She *had* to jump on the bandwagon!



...or right under it...juggernaut stylee...


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> She had dug herself in so deep with that one that she couldn't do a standard reverse-ferret. If she'd done a modicum of research before jumping on the weev-supporting wiberal bandwagon, she could have avoided showing herself up as an utter arse, but no! She *had* to jump on the bandwagon!



Probably didn't do wonders for the Prada-Meinhof posturing or building that 'ethical' brand, eh?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> I'm seeing more of the word curator applied to collections of people rather than information and objects. Seems very pretentious to me.


It seems to be the current in thing to do. 99 times out of 100 they're actually the curator of fuck all. 

Pickman's model can advise further, but I don't think 'curating' is a real verb, it's one of those made up ones.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> for 4 k a month it'd better include more than yoga and fruit, you can roll my spliffs and laugh at my jokes while you are there


I'd want more than a few apples and a spot of yoga for that money too. I'd also not want to live with hipster twats who pretend to 'curate' all the time.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It seems to be the current in thing to do. 99 times out of 100 they're actually the curator of fuck all.



People who 'curate' their apartments :thumbs :


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It seems to be the current in thing to do. 99 times out of 100 they're actually the curator of fuck all.
> 
> Pickman's model can advise further, but I don't think 'curating' is a real verb, it's one of those made up ones.


I've seen it in loads of work stuff today, it's really irritating. I'm also seeing "sale" repositioned as "edit" for the past few months too


----------



## Sue (Aug 3, 2015)

Belushi said:


> People who 'curate' their apartments :thumbs :



Was wandering past some ubercool opening party for a magazine in Shoreditch the other week, with music curated by some collective or other. They were playing Material Girl when I passed one way and Billie Jean on the way back which just goes to show how tricky this curating thing is. 

ETA Mind you, I was probably the only person in the vicinity who actually remembered them first time round...


----------



## Libertad (Aug 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> I've seen it in loads of work stuff today, it's really irritating. I'm also seeing "sale" repositioned as "edit" for the past few months too



I don't understand that


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I'd want more than a few apples and a spot of yoga for that money too. I'd also not want to live with hipster twats who pretend to 'curate' all the time.



Look on the bright side. Herding them into particular spots makes their very existence that much easier to ignore.


----------



## Sue (Aug 3, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Look on the bright side. Herding them into particular spots makes their very existence that much easier to ignore.


Or easier to get them all at once...


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 3, 2015)

what if you win the lottery and want to live in a mad posh place like that but don't want to get yoga'd? I'm imagining hiding behind my 4000 pound sofa (because if I win the lottery I am having a disgustingly expensive sofa) as the yoga man knocks shouting through the letterbox at chakras and that


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2015)

Sue said:


> Or easier to get them all at once...


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I don't understand that


"Edit" you mean? "Shop our latest edit" is the stuff that's on discount/sale. Presumably they're editing the range they carry and selling off what they're editing out.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> "Edit" you mean? "Shop our latest edit" is the stuff that's on discount/sale. Presumably they're editing the range they carry and selling off what they're editing out.



I'm actually more confused after the explanation than before.


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I'm actually more confused after the explanation than before.


No-one has explained it to me, that's the only sense I can make of "shop our latest edit" or words to that effect  Might have it entirely wrong.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 3, 2015)

an 'edit' usually refers to a video of youths doing edgy things on bmx or skateboard, IME.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> "Edit" you mean? "Shop our latest edit" is the stuff that's on discount/sale. Presumably they're editing the range they carry and selling off what they're editing out.



Thanks, I think


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> I've seen it in loads of work stuff today, it's really irritating. I'm also seeing "sale" repositioned as "edit" for the past few months too


It's starting to creep into my work stuff, and it irritates me also.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 4, 2015)




----------



## J Ed (Aug 4, 2015)

So, that intersectionality as radicalism thing...

From a 'Fellow in Philanthropy' at the Ford Foundation



> Youth organizers in this network bring a truly intersectional lens to their work.



How much longer before we see the word being used by the Tory Party or Barclays? I give it 5 years or less.


----------



## agricola (Aug 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> So, that intersectionality as radicalism thing...
> 
> From a 'Fellow in Philanthropy' at the Ford Foundation
> 
> ...



an intersectional lens?  isnt that a prism?


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It seems to be the current in thing to do. 99 times out of 100 they're actually the curator of fuck all.
> 
> Pickman's model can advise further, but I don't think 'curating' is a real verb, it's one of those made up ones.



I have heard of someone working as a temp in an office, who was asked to "curate" (i.e., arrange) a meeting

not sure what's "made up" about "to curate" as a verb, though. 

The rise of the superstar curator in the late 80s and 90s in the art world paralleled the rise of the superstar DJ. Until, well, it was worked out that with the right connections and a modicum of organisational and social skills, anyone could do it. Just like with the right software anyone can be a DJ.

everyone's a curator now as a result.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 4, 2015)

I know Dan Hodges is a massive fucking weapon but even for him, this:




			
				Massive Fucking Weapon said:
			
		

> They had come. The young. The old. The women. The men. *The blacks.* The whites. The rich. The poor, (actually, they seemed predominantly middle-class to me).



is very bad indeed. Cos, y'know, black people aren't men or women, young or old, rich or poor, not really, are they Dan, they're just not like us


----------



## dendrite (Aug 4, 2015)

S☼I said:


> I know Dan Hodges is a massive fucking weapon but even for him, this:
> 
> 
> 
> is very bad indeed. Cos, y'know, black people aren't men or women, young or old, rich or poor, not really, are they Dan, they're just not like us


 
How has he used "blacks" differently from "whites" in that list?  (Apart from being earlier in the word order.) Genuinely puzzled, non-rhetorical question.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2015)

agricola said:


> an intersectional lens?  isnt that a prism?



when i was little, I got a visit to a science museum that had an exhibit for kids that included a ring of mirrors. you had to climb under the edge, and stand inside the hexagon (i think, but some kind of multi-sided shape) that was about 2m accross where every wall was a mirror. then see all the images of yourself, reflections inside reflections. 

I think that's an intersectional lens, at least the way this lot use intersectionality. because all they see is themselves reflected over and over again, rather than the world outside of the walls.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 4, 2015)

agricola said:


> an intersectional lens?  isnt that a prism?



No, it's not a prism.

Stop being so chromato-normative, you Godless heathen!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 4, 2015)

dendrite said:


> How has he used "blacks" differently from "whites" in that list?  (Apart from being earlier in the word order.) Genuinely puzzled, non-rhetorical question.



"The blacks" has a bad weight to it, historically. Hodges should know this, being a man of letters and all. If he'd said "Black people. White people" or "Black. White." that would have been ok.


----------



## dendrite (Aug 4, 2015)

S☼I said:


> "The blacks" has a bad weight to it, historically. Hodges should know this, being a man of letters and all. If he'd said "Black people. White people" or "Black. White." that would have been ok.



With that clarification, it seems we agree that textually, there's no difference in MFW's treatment of each of the groupings mentioned - just adding the article 'the' to each of them and putting them in a list.

That was what i was curious about. I understand what you're saying about the historical resonance of "The blacks" being different from his identical mentioning of other groupings.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> No, it's not a prism.
> 
> Stop being so chromato-normative, you Godless heathen!



Wheras your choice to use the term godless heathen only proves your cultural imperialism. Only someone who holds a false belief in their own innate superiority could assume that someone is without a structured system of belief in the catagorisation of optical elements, simply because they reject the definitions you use. you need to check your privilege before commenting again.


----------



## binka (Aug 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> "Edit" you mean? "Shop our latest edit" is the stuff that's on discount/sale. Presumably they're editing the range they carry and selling off what they're editing out.


in the last six-twelve months it's become a thing in my work too. it's extremely wanky but i think you have the meaning slightly wrong - i take it to mean edit as in edition or like an editor would get rid of all the shit just leaving the gold

eg:
http://www.very.co.uk/veryedit


----------



## cesare (Aug 4, 2015)

binka said:


> in the last six-twelve months it's become a thing in my work too. it's extremely wanky but i think you have the meaning slightly wrong - i take it to mean edit as in edition or like an editor would get rid of all the shit just leaving the gold
> 
> eg:
> http://www.very.co.uk/veryedit


Ah, I don't tend to click links to anything that's not a sale - it make sense that edit is highlights in all senses not just reduced price highlights.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 4, 2015)

toggle said:


> Wheras your choice to use the term godless heathen only proves your cultural imperialism. Only someone who holds a false belief in their own innate superiority could assume that someone is without a structured system of belief in the catagorisation of optical elements, simply because they reject the definitions you use. you need to check your privilege before commenting again.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2015)

Brilliant parody of Vice


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 6, 2015)

Guardian poundshop contrarian art columnist at it again. http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...-strikes-turn-me-tory-mark-serwotka-pcs-union


----------



## Libertad (Aug 6, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Guardian poundshop contrarian art columnist at it again. http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...-strikes-turn-me-tory-mark-serwotka-pcs-union



We did this yesterday


----------



## rekil (Aug 7, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Why is being a pervert, 'freak' or 'bohemian' considered oppositional to neoliberalism?


Terrible infantile Bruce Sterling quote posted on urban75 poster and little bit autonomist Laurie Penny's instagram.  On top of everything else, 'weirdness' isn't even a registered spoke on the wheel of oppression so why bother? The 'fail' is only compounded further by the smug Harvard victory pic just below it.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 7, 2015)

copliker said:


> Terrible infantile Bruce Sterling quote posted on urban75 poster and little bit autonomist Laurie Penny's instagram.  On top of everything else, 'weirdness' isn't even a registered spoke on the wheel of oppression so why bother? The 'fail' is only compounded further by the smug Harvard victory pic just below it.



The last line of that quote is missing.



> Most of all, remember that if being weird doesn't work you're from a loaded family and you've got loads of rich journalist mates who'll make sure you're absolutely fine.



Try working at Tesco's and being that weird and see if you get away with it. I'm not even saying I disagree with the sentiment: it's just that it's easy to be what you want when you've got cash and contacts. Most people can't even dye their hair a funny colour without risking the sack.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 8, 2015)

Jonathan Jones returns to his own vomit and doubles down this time:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-like-me-not-cynics-corbynites-pure-socialism

...Raving, ignorant nonsense - almost unhinged. Must be some meltdown going on at Guardian towers.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 8, 2015)

"after twenty years of simmering war of all against all, the army of the new republic launched the final offensive for the fourth time"


----------



## rekil (Aug 8, 2015)

An Indy story by one Jonathan Owen about Poles organising a strike contains this sinister little turd.



> Yesterday saw the launch of a protest of a more positive kind. Using the Twitter hashtag #Polishblood, organisers want Polish migrants to donate blood on the 20th August, rather than not turning up for work.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 8, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> "after twenty years of simmering war of all against all, the army of the new republic launched the final offensive for the fourth time"


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 8, 2015)

The Pale King said:


> Jonathan Jones returns to his own vomit and doubles down this time:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-like-me-not-cynics-corbynites-pure-socialism
> 
> ...Raving, ignorant nonsense - almost unhinged. Must be some meltdown going on at Guardian towers.



I like the way he actually acknowledges that Corbyn isn't a Marxist but then ploughs on regardless.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2015)

totally lost it. we should have a sweepstake on which one of the liberal bedwetters will be first to mention Stalin


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> totally lost it. we should have a sweepstake on which one of the liberal bedwetters will be first to mention Stalin



Jones does.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Jones does.


I skimmed it when I saw he was going down some Wind Of Change gorky park bullshit route to lend credence to his point. guardian keeps crashing my netbook, will you post the paragraph pls


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> guardian keeps crashing my netbook


It does that on my phone browser too - unsure whether blessing or curse


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I skimmed it when I saw he was going down some Wind Of Change gorky park bullshit to lend credence to his point. guardian keeps crashing my netbook, will you post the paragraph pls





Karl Marx was a gentle man, but his ideas would lead to human suffering almost unequalled in the history of the world. On the best current figures, about 6 million Russians were murdered in the era of Joseph Stalin – and that’s before you factor in the sufferings of eastern Europe from 1945 onwards, or the other revolutions from China to Cuba.

Today, the terrifying reality of Marxism in power has been consigned mercifully to the history books, but it has strange echoes. Clearly, Jeremy Corbyn is no Stalin, or Lenin, or Mao Zedong, just a long-serving British MP, but Marxist ideas live again in some spectral form in Corbyn’s runaway campaign and the enthusiasm of his supporters for a truly socialist Labour party. In one of the unspun answers that makes him appear authentic to supporters, Corbyn called Marx “a fascinating figure who observed a great deal and from whom we can learn a great deal”.

And:

I don’t think that after the fall of communism you can reject the capitalist economy root and branch or want to subject it to strong state control as Corbyn does. Markets are human, they have a powerfully creative side as well as a harsh unjust side, and to believe otherwise is to indulge in the same folly that killed the hapless peasants who Stalin labelled capitalist “kulaks” and saw fit to starve and shoot. The anti-market obsession that has overtaken the thinking left since Lehman Brothers is a treason by intellectuals whose hypocrisy is glaring. It’s like the old Monty Python gag. What has capitalism ever done for us – apart from the clothes, the food, the computers, the films, the pop music, and all the other stuff people swarmed the Berlin Wall 26 years ago to get their share of?

He even invokes the city named after Uncle Joe (and mis-spells 'Volgograd'):

In Russia I came across Marxism Today in a news kiosk in Vologograd – that is, Stalingrad. Of course! It had been funded by Moscow all along, like the entire Communist Party of Great Britain. So that too was compromised. And beside the vast silver emptiness of the Volga, the kulaks were nowhere to be found.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2015)

The guardian sells fucking marx t shirts ffs.


----------



## rekil (Aug 8, 2015)

> I can’t help thinking today’s bold neo-Marxist concepts like “the 1%” and “austerity” are equally unmoored from real lives. Indeed Greece has already found out what anti-austerity means in practice.



Eh?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2015)

Corbyn's not a stalinist though!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 8, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Corbyn's not a stalinist though!



He's too far-left for the fauxcalist Guardian and union-busting New Statesman, though.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2015)

Anyway, the guardian has interviewed the head of hizb ut tahrir by one if their journalists who describes him as a mate and has some weird shrine to 'valued' isis fighters ffs


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2015)

I am starting to really loathe that paper. They are not even fake socialists they've called for a vote for the lib dems ffs


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Corbyn's not a stalinist though!



they need to paint him so in order to reassure their blairite readership that corbyns mild social democratic spiel is hysterical.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 8, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I am starting to really loathe that paper. They are not even fake socialists they've called for a vote for the lib dems ffs



I have more time for the FT and the Torygraph. At least their writers actually give you the straight up neoliberal establishment line without private school boys and girls telling off actual socialists by being like 'psst I was young and naive and didn't despise the most vulnerable in society once, just like you, but now it's time to grow up!'


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> they need to paint him so in order to reassure their blairite readership that corbyns mild social democratic spiel is hysterical.



Seems as though the Blairites are the hysterical ones. Hysterical at the thought of the Labour Party actually being socialist again.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I have more time for the FT and the Torygraph. At least their writers actually give you the straight up neoliberal establishment line without private school boys and girls telling off actual socialists by being like 'psst I was young and naive and didn't despise the most vulnerable in society once, just like you, but now it's time to grow up!'


toynbee and white, stamping on a human face forever etc


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2015)

> I can’t help thinking today’s bold neo-Marxist concepts like “the 1%” and “austerity” are equally unmoored from real lives. Indeed Greece has already found out what anti-austerity means in practice.



The cunt deserves a neck-shot for that alone.


> I can’t help thinking...


 Then try harder you shiterag.
He should come round our house and have a look at what "austerity" means when it's fucking "moored" itself in our "real lives".

Jonathan Jones your name shall also go on the list.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 8, 2015)

22% unemployment in the city I live in now and 25% youth unemployment in the town I was born in. Capitalism not exactly doing my family or friends many favours. Some social democracy wouldn't go amiss in either of those place.
He seems unable to compute anything outside of his own tiny sphere of existence. A bubble of journalists, the wealthy and the London restaurant scene. It was the same with museums the other week. Loads of people don't have 20 quid to take their family out to look at paintings.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 8, 2015)

[QUOTE="J Ed, post: 14047647, member: 58247'psst I was young and naive and didn't despise the most vulnerable in society once, just like you, but now it's time to grow up!'[/QUOTE]

Or "Now _I'm_ rich you can fuck off!"


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Why is being a pervert, 'freak' or 'bohemian' considered oppositional to neoliberalism?



Richard Branson is all three.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2015)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/burning-daily-mail-sisters-uncut

The Sisters Uncut have been protesting against the Daily Mail, good on them, but strangely it didn't include challenging the anti-claimant bile and the scrounger rhetoric.

doesn't seem on their radar.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2015)

red & green said:


> Just comes across like she thinks she's special - not interested tbh



I don't read the spectator. The irony is I only know of her because of here!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 9, 2015)

I'm no fan of Laurie Penny or Malcolm Harris or Molly Crabapple, but surely Jonathan Jones has put the biggest liberal dickhead title out of reach.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2015)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm no fan of Laurie Penny or Malcolm Harris or Molly Crabapple, but surely Jonathan Jones has put the biggest liberal dickhead title out of reach.


Neck and neck with Michael White for me.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 9, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Neck and neck with Michael White for me.



Only one bullet needed.


----------



## rekil (Aug 9, 2015)

White's analysis of Allende and Chile leaves much to be desired as you might imagine. Meanwhile, he has endorsed Jones.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 9, 2015)

copliker said:


> White's analysis of Allende and Chile leaves much to be desired as you might imagine. Meanwhile, he has endorsed Jones.




Condescending cunt and I've just told him as much.


----------



## rekil (Aug 9, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Condescending cunt and I've just told him as much.


Make of this what you will. Eduardo Frei didn't have a tache, but if he did, it would probably have been a Whitey. #Tashology


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 9, 2015)

Wtf


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 9, 2015)

Here's an important lesson every _Guardian_ reader seems to need to learn either from books or the hard way -the likes of Michael White will always be on the sides of the bosses and the death squads; not necessarily with the stomach for actually pressing the gun barrel into the eye socket, clamping the electrodes to the genitals or pulling the knife across the infant's throat, but always with the weasel words to 'explain' why it is necessary or inevitable or desirable.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 9, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Condescending cunt and I've just told him as much.



Me: "You and Jones have lost all sense of reality. You have no experience of austerity in your "real lives". Don't condescend to me."

White: "The only difference between you condescending to me and me doing ti back is that I do it on purpose. Best wishes"


Cheeky cunt.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 9, 2015)

Me: @*MichaelWhite* Condescension comes easy to you given your lofty position. Me, I have to try a little harder. I lack aspiration obviously.

Feel free to wade in, I'm not so sure I have the tools to level this apologist for fascism as my bayonet is not long enough.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 9, 2015)

I would, but i don't do twitter any more. Bad things happened when i did


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## frogwoman (Aug 10, 2015)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/life/hi...athenian-neighbourhoods-and-outright-anarchy/

Golden Dawn - why we've got them all wrong


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 10, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Goldie Hawn - why we've got them all wrong


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 10, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> https://www.spectator.co.uk/life/hi...athenian-neighbourhoods-and-outright-anarchy/
> 
> Golden Dawn - why we've got them all wrong


 



> Take it from Taki...


 
Aha! Wise words from an undisputed non-rabid racist right-winger


----------



## J Ed (Aug 10, 2015)




----------



## Bakunin (Aug 10, 2015)

J Ed said:


>




Heartening for folk who can't afford twenty quid for a meal, isn't it?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 11, 2015)

Food deserts are an actual thing which cause malnutrition for working-class Americans, it's just a crass thing to say


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 11, 2015)




----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


>



She just blurts these things out without thinking.

I don't know why she doesn't just take a few snacks with her. A pot noodle, a couple of pieces of fruit and a packet of biscuits will cost a lot less than twenty quid.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

Personally, I can't remember the last time I spent twenty quid on a single meal.


----------



## fractionMan (Aug 11, 2015)

luckily for her, someone else is paying for dinner anyway


----------



## agricola (Aug 11, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> She just blurts these things out without thinking.
> 
> I don't know why she doesn't just take a few snacks with her. A pot noodle, a couple of pieces of fruit and a packet of biscuits will cost a lot less than twenty quid.



Or some Angel Delight, which as we all know as a food dessert.

*gets coat*


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

fractionMan said:


> luckily for her, someone else is paying for dinner anyway


In that case her comment is even more disingenuous - she could have tweeted grateful thanks to whoever bought her dinner as a token of gratitude.


----------



## rekil (Aug 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


>



I wouldn't say I'm a l33t cybergeek ubermensch like urban75 poster and "top 10 to 1" percenter of society Laurie, but I h@><0r3d the internet using a secret tool called 'googlemaps' and found a McDonald's beside the conference hotel, plus 2 pubs, an Italian restaurant and a shop a few minutes walk away. I also found €5 on the path yesterday, but that was analogue skillz.


----------



## cesare (Aug 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> I wouldn't say I'm a l33t cybergeek ubermensch like urban75 poster and "top 10 to 1" percenter of society Laurie, but I h@><0r3d the internet using a secret tool called 'googlemaps' and found a McDonald's beside the conference hotel, plus 2 pubs, an Italian restaurant and a shop a few minutes walk away. I also found €5 on the path yesterday, but that was analogue skillz.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

fractionMan said:


> luckily for her, someone else is paying for dinner anyway


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Food deserts are an actual thing which cause malnutrition for working-class Americans, it's just a crass thing to say



An actual thing for the working class everywhere. I have a cousin who lives outside of Norwich. Nearest "corner shop" is a mile (and ridiculously expensive), nearest choice of shops 3 miles, no car, and the bus service sucks like an industrial vacuum cleaner.


----------



## the button (Aug 11, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Personally, I can't remember the last time I spent twenty quid on a single meal.


Same. I usually have a main course too.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

tbf, I'd probably moan on twitter if it was 20 quid for a meal in a hotel I was staying in too.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> tbf, I'd probably moan on twitter if it was 20 quid for a meal in a hotel I was staying in too.



I would go to McDonalds instead


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

yeah, then I'd go to macdonalds. It's a weird thing to be complaining about here though - why not wait until she actually posts something shit? It won't be long...


----------



## J Ed (Aug 11, 2015)

It was the food desert comparison rather than the complaining about the expense of food in the hotel that prompted me to post it up


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

Is that any worse than complaining about being starving?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> Is that any worse than complaining about being starving?


Well it would be about as annoying as complaining about being starving because the mulipack crisps in the cupboard no longer contain any prawn cocktail flavour.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

That seems like a reasonable complaint to me.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> That seems like a reasonable complaint to me.


Whatever flavour you like then. But the analogy holds - you still have crisps just like penny red still has a choice of food outlets to go to. Many of reasonably priced and far less than 20 quid.

Has anyone pointed out to her what being in a food desert actually means? Clue: it's not being more than a whole foods or waitress.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

yeah, you've already made that point. She's exaggerating for effect, like everyone does. seriously, this is nothing - and it make it easier for people to dismiss any criticisms you might have about anything real.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> yeah, you've already made that point. She's exaggerating for effect, like everyone does. seriously, this is nothing - and it make it easier for people to dismiss any criticisms you might have about anything real.


Penny goes a fair way beyond exaggeration though. Right into downright fabrication in some cases.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

But not in this case. So why use it? What purpose does it serve than to make you look like obsessive weirdos who can be dismissed without engaging?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

Because food deserts are actually affecting many people this country, and SOMEONE ELSE BOUGHT HER DINNER ANYWAY BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS.

Are we to start grading her dishonesty now, so to only comment on the big fat whopping lies?


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

She isn't being dishonest though, she's just having a moan on twitter. And I do think picking and choosing what to criticise is a good idea, of course. Otherwise you just look weird.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

Plus the fact that there are a great many people in this country at the moment for whom twenty quid on one meal would be a luxury they simply can't afford. So to hear somebody complaining about having to pay for one meal a price that, for them, might be half their weekly food budget, might just grate a little.

Maybe she should check her privilege.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

Yeah, you've already said that too. Just stop and think for a minute instead of getting defensive. What are you hoping to achieve by highlighting this outrage? Do you think anyone gives a shit about some minor PC semantic transgression that mainly exists only in the heads of the 5 regular posters on this thread? Do you think anyone new to the topic is going to view that with anything other than scorn, and write you off as slightly unhinged ultra-left obsessives?


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> Yeah, you've already said that too. Just stop and think for a minute instead of getting defensive. What are you hoping to achieve by highlighting this outrage? Do you think anyone gives a shit about some minor PC semantic transgression that mainly exists only in the heads of the 5 regular posters on this thread? Do you think anyone new to the topic is going to view that with anything other than scorn, and write you off as slightly unhinged ultra-left obsessives?



I don't give a damn about people paying twenty quid for a meal. It irks me that they whine about it when to many it's a luxury they can't afford, especially when it's somebody so fond of telling other people to check their privilege. When I first signed on I was getting forty quid a week, eighty quid a fortnight. There were plenty of times that I either had to choose between feeding the leccy meter or eating and sometimes I'd run out of cash completely and find myself not eating at all for several days while sitting there cold and in the dark. And I'm not alone in that, more's the pity.

What irks me is her posing as some voice of the downtrodden and dispossessed while never having actually been either. If she had then she wouldn't be so crass as to whine about having to do something that for so many people is an option they simply don't have. It's crass, insensitive and betrays the privilege that she's so fond of telling other people, often people enduring a considerably less comfortable existence than her sainted self, that they should be checking at her command.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

Someone moaning on twitter about a meal being 20 quid isn't crass or insensitive. You've just made that up.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> Someone moaning on twitter about a meal being 20 quid isn't crass or insensitive. You've just made that up.



Wrong. I expressed an opinion. Whether or not you agree is up to you.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

You've been posting in this thread too long. You don't have any perspective on this, only a blinkered obsession with getting penny at any cost. Its a bit pathetic tbh.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 11, 2015)

Got to agree with you killer b i really dont care what shes had for dinner, plenty of other outrages on this thread


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 11, 2015)

Im interested in that cunt of a golden dawn apologist, anyone got any dirt on him? As one example


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> You've been posting in this thread too long. You don't have any perspective on this, only a blinkered obsession with getting penny at any cost. Its a bit pathetic tbh.



No, I have a dislike of fakery, hypocrisy and dishonesty. I've no objection to being fair with people. I also have serious doubts as to her professional competence and professional ethics, doubts for which there is ample reason. Not the same thing at all, and it's dishonest to claim otherwise.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 11, 2015)

I dont like penny but shes nothing compared with say the henry jackson columnists or that 'fathom' guy


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 11, 2015)

Pretty much most people exaggerate, half remember stuff and downright lie about things some of the time

Some of the scum we discuss here have done far worse (and her friendship with the nazi falls in that category) 

Pick you battles I think


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Pretty much most people exaggerate, half remember stuff and downright lie about things some of the time
> 
> Some of the scum we discuss here have done far worse



Agreed, absolutely. It's a storm in a teacup, certainly. But it did irritate me a little for the reasons I've given.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> No, I have a dislike of fakery, hypocrisy and dishonesty. I've no objection to being fair with people. I also have serious doubts as to her professional competence and professional ethics, doubts for which there is ample reason. Not the same thing at all, and it's dishonest to claim otherwise.


This has no relevance whatsoever to the tweet in question. If you're bothered about her dishonesty, fakery, professional competence etc then perhaps you should stick to highlighting occasions where her dishonesty, fakery and professional competence can be criticised. As you seem to have a much wider remit than that, it should be no surprise that you can easily get mistaken for someone with less noble motives.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 11, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Im interested in that cunt of a golden dawn apologist, anyone got any dirt on him? As one example


You mean Taki? He's got a bit of, erm, _history_...


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 11, 2015)

Sure, but saying something is a food desert is the least of her crimes, its like that light bulb stuff a year ago. If i say my house is 'a bit ghetto' as theres rats and damp and holes in the wall is that trivialising the holocaust? Its in the same sort of league i reckon


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> This has no relevance whatsoever to the tweet in question. If you're bothered about her dishonesty, fakery, professional competence etc then perhaps you should stick to highlighting occasions where her dishonesty, fakery and professional competence can be criticised. As you seem to have a much wider remit than that, it should be no surprise that you can easily get mistaken for someone with less noble motives.



I've already stated my reasons and made them crystal clear. I don't have to justify them or prove that they are what they are, not some hidden agenda you seem to be implying, or do so at your convenience. It irked me so I commented on it. Simple.



frogwoman said:


> Sure, but saying something is a food desert is the least of her crimes, its like that light bulb stuff a year ago. If i say my house is 'a bit ghetto' as theres rats and damp and holes in the wall is that trivialising the holocaust? Its in the same sort of league i reckon



It's a trivial nothing, yes. And, to be fair, I am feeling slightly crabby this evening.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

Clearly you aren't obliged to justify anything to me. But this is a discussion forum, and presumably when you post up your opinions, theyre up for discussion? Or do you only discuss them with people who're nodding along?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2015)

Who cares about the New Statesman? It's shit.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> Clearly you aren't obliged to justify anything to me. But this is a discussion forum, and presumably when you post up your opinions, theyre up for discussion? Or do you only discuss them with people who're nodding along?



Your tone came across as unnecessarily confrontational, if I'm honest. I've no objection to debating with people, but it comes across as though you're looking more for a row than a debate. To me, anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Your tone came across as unnecessarily confrontational, if I'm honest. I've no objection to debating with people, but it comes across as though you're looking more for a row than a debate. To me, anyway.


Have to agree with this killer b - yes, it might not be her absolute worst journalistic 'crime' but still - you were coming across as looking for a fight.

Yes, this is a discussion forum where we disagree and discuss many things, but you're continuing to try to pick a fight with both me and Bakunin even though we've both stated why we think she's being crass, insensitive and dishonest.


----------



## toggle (Aug 11, 2015)

it's not the whining about the cost of hotel food, it's the relating the whine to food deserts. fucking ignorance and really does show how far she is from the people she claims to speak for.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

My gran lives in a food desert. Nearest convenience shop is about two miles from her house. There's no footpath between her house and the shop, it's a country road with no path on either side, so walking is foolhardy because people speed along it and there's two blind summits along the way. There's irregular public transport in either direction. She also doesn't drive.

So to get food she grows a lot of vegetables and relies on my mum to do her shopping online at a nearby supermarket. I say nearby, it's about ten miles from her house. 

That's a food desert.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> My gran lives in a food desert. Nearest convenience shop is about two miles from her house. There's no footpath between her house and the shop, it's a country road with no path on either side, so walking is foolhardy because people speed along it and there's two blind summits along the way. There's irregular public transport in either direction. She also doesn't drive.
> 
> So to get food she grows a lot of vegetables and relies on my mum to do her shopping online at a nearby supermarket. I say nearby, it's about ten miles from her house.
> 
> That's a food desert.



It is indeed. Especially for anybody living in a rural area who has to rely on others for transport and/or can't afford the delivery charges for online grocery shopping. If you're on a tight budget then including delivery charges means buying less groceries, possibly less than you actually need. It's a common problem in rural areas.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2015)

Carry on then. Weirdos.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 11, 2015)

killer b said:


> Carry on then. Weirdos.



In case you hadn't noticed, there is something of a debate evolving about what constitutes a food desert and issues relating to it. That's an issue that's worth discussion, especially as it affects so many people across the country. There are also people here who've had direct experience of it and that makes the discussion even more worthwhile.

If that doesn't interest you then don't bother with it. If it does, then contribute.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2015)

Despite all that, my gran is fortunate in that she has help from family, albeit remotely for the most part. My cousin is fairly close by and can help with odd jobs etc.

But what do people do without a support network?  What if they don't have a computer or can't afford an Internet connection?


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 12, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Despite all that, my gran is fortunate in that she has help from family, albeit remotely for the most part. My cousin is fairly close by and can help with odd jobs etc.
> 
> But what do people do without a support network?  What if they don't have a computer or can't afford an Internet connection?



True. Being isolated both geographically and socially (especially common among the sick, elderly and disabled) only adds to the problem. It makes an already difficult situation worse, especially if you're also under threat from welfare 'reform', budget cuts, tax credit cuts, benefit sanctions and suchlike.


----------



## toggle (Aug 12, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> True. Being isolated both geographically and socially (especially common among the sick, elderly and disabled) only adds to the problem. It makes an already difficult situation worse, especially if you're also under threat from welfare 'reform', budget cuts, tax credit cuts, benefit sanctions and suchlike.



and a general failure to recognise the existence of rural poverty.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 12, 2015)

toggle said:


> and a general failure to recognise the existence of rural poverty.



Ah, that old problem. The one that successive governments  have done so little to tackle.


----------



## rekil (Aug 12, 2015)

peter cushing said:
			
		

> I know how absurd this is likely to sound, but please, I'm not a weirdo, you _*must*_ listen. The spirit of LLETSA....has returned, and has taken a new host. If the evil is to be destroyed, and it is imperative that we do so, he must be prevented from escaping to the sanctuary of the burger thread, where no power on earth, pardon the terrancentricism, can cause him any harm.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2015)

killer b said:


> Carry on then. Weirdos.



I've usually got a modicum of respect for your opinions, but the above ? That's plain cuntishness.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 13, 2015)




----------



## tufty79 (Aug 13, 2015)




----------



## Bakunin (Aug 14, 2015)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...grants-it-should-worry-about-creeping-fascism

In fairness, I'd say that's a definite improvement on the usual.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 14, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...grants-it-should-worry-about-creeping-fascism
> 
> In fairness, I'd say that's a definite improvement on the usual.


I think so. Certainly not as objectionable as many of her articles have been.


----------



## rekil (Aug 14, 2015)

It's Jonathan Jones's reheated slop from the other day, which at least gave the story behind the Raft Of The Medusa painting a mention.


> There is a reason that Angela Merkel’s response, in June, to a demonstration where the bodies of drowned migrants were buried on the front lawn of the Bundestag was stony silence.


Made up. Didn't happen. About 100 "symbolic" holes were dug.



> “Is it me,” said my friend, “Or is it just...okay to say things that are violently racist now? Has that always been okay, and I just didn’t notice till now?”


Yes it is ok, it's just trolling or pranksterism when your dickhead hero du jour does it. The one your wretched mate did a portrait of and sent postcards to ffs.



> Fascism happens when a culture fracturing along social lines is encouraged to unite against a perceived external threat.


Bag o'shite. Wtf is going on in Oxford.


----------



## Ole (Aug 17, 2015)




----------



## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2015)

Yes, she probably is.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 17, 2015)

Ole said:


>




She is such a coward.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 17, 2015)

Ole said:


>




Couldn't resist asking her if that's why the NS still won't recognise the NUJ. Seems like a fair question.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2015)

Has she explained why she feels so sympathetic to a man who did what he did?


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 17, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Has she explained why she feels so sympathetic to a man who did what he did?



Not terribly well, no. I'll be surprised if she deigns to answer my question about the NUJ either, to be honest.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 17, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Has she explained why she feels so sympathetic to a man who did what he did?



No because that would require actually having a position that she would then be required to defend rather than her typical wishy washy kite flying neoliberal bullshit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, she probably is.


except the entire 'liberal' left press who seem to think a slightly irritable old bloke from old labour tradition is stalin. Watching them shit themselves over this is almost better than indyreff. OMG PEOPLE ARE VOTING WRONG! well I thought you liked democracy sooo much? shitheads


----------



## red & green (Aug 17, 2015)

Twitter spat between John Rentoul and Bonnie Greer - seems some of those journos are abandoning any kind of neutrality - really amusing


----------



## agricola (Aug 17, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> except the entire 'liberal' left press who seem to think a slightly irritable old bloke from old labour tradition is stalin. Watching them shit themselves over this is almost better than indyreff. OMG PEOPLE ARE VOTING WRONG! well I thought you liked democracy sooo much? shitheads



Of course they despise him, Corbyn is the asteroid that created the Chicxulub crater to their Saurian population.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

C4 News had our Laurie on tonight. She was put up against Stephen Bush (NS) to cheerlead for JC. I assume that our Owen was otherwise engaged. 

No real 'beer on keyboard' moments that I can remember.....she seemed a little nervous.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> C4 News had our Laurie on tonight. She was put up against Stephen Bush (NS) to cheerlead for JC. I assume that our Owen was otherwise engaged.
> 
> No real 'beer on keyboard' moments that I can remember.....she seemed a little nervous.



I can see why she was nervous. Arguing against someone who also works for the NS might be seen as biting the hand that feeds. I've also had no answer from a certain Ms Lewis about the NS refusing to recognise the NUJ, either.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

ICYM'ourLaurie'


----------



## rekil (Aug 18, 2015)

Didn't get past 1:25 and the "squeezed" middle class tears. That's where the "mutiny" shit in her buke and the "autonomist tradition" she claimed to come from leads is it.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2015)

copliker said:


> Didn't get past 1:25 and the "squeezed" middle class tears. That's where the "mutiny" shit in her buke and the "autonomist tradition" she claimed to come from leads is it.



She's spent a year in the US where middle-class is sort of used in the same way that we say working-class.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> She's spent a year in the US where middle-class is sort of used in the same way that we say working-class.


True Ed, but she was responding to Bush's point about JC not appealing to the middle class, as understood in the conventional UK manner...I think.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 18, 2015)

Like with Owen Jones, I can't wait for her take on things come the Russian revolution centenary in a couple of years time.


----------



## rekil (Aug 18, 2015)

Low quality beef with Hodges who's too stupid to land a knockout nazi hacker hero mention blow. Bit saucy from LP considering the attempt to insult people here with the "I work for living" comment.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> C4 News had our Laurie on tonight. She was put up against Stephen Bush (NS) to cheerlead for JC. *I assume that our Owen was otherwise engaged. *
> 
> No real 'beer on keyboard' moments that I can remember.....she seemed a little nervous.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 18, 2015)

Laurie Penny on Corbyn. The campaign's Stalingrad.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


>




fucking vomit


----------



## JimW (Aug 18, 2015)

Corbyn's campaign might be able to get past this unfortunate intervention from Penny but it's bound to leave a taint.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> fucking vomit


mwah darling, mwah xx


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2015)

JimW said:


> Corbyn's campaign might be able to get past this unfortunate intervention from Penny but it's bound to leave a taint.



He is losing at least 10 votes per vowel


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

JimW said:


> Corbyn's campaign might be able to get past this unfortunate intervention from Penny but it's bound to leave a taint.


Odd gig for La Penny; isn't JC white, middle aged, middle-class & straight?


----------



## rekil (Aug 18, 2015)

Corbyn doing the ISIS finger salute in that telegraph pic. #makeuthink


----------



## JimW (Aug 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Odd gig for La Peeny; isn't JC white, middle aged, middle-class & straight?


When the interviewer repeated his bit about Chucks being a different "face" I thought he was going for some race angle but Laurie was wise to him.

ETA Also learned it's Law-ree and not Lorry like I thought.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 18, 2015)

JimW said:


> ETA Also learned it's Law-ree and not Lorry like I thought.



I say it a bit differently


----------



## Favelado (Aug 18, 2015)

Red Laurie, Yellow Laurie, Red Laurie, Yellow Laurie.


----------



## tim (Aug 18, 2015)

Favelado said:


> Red Laurie, Yellow Laurie, Red Laurie, Yellow Laurie.



It'll be Blue Laurie before too long.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

tim said:


> It'll be Blue Laurie before too long.


You appear to have over-looked this...


> The only way my friends and I could find to buck the trend was to *improvise a whole new way of living*, where we pool resources and share our labour, from carpentry to cake-baking. *Imagine our surprise when we found created a post-capitalist anarcho-syndicalist utopia entirely by accident.*


----------



## Favelado (Aug 18, 2015)

She's got middle-class bohemia mixed up with anarcho-syndicalism. Fine apart from that.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 18, 2015)

Favelado said:


> She's got middle-class bohemia mixed up with anarcho-syndicalism. Fine apart from that.


That piece was far from fine.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> That piece was far from fine.



I didn't mean it.


----------



## tim (Aug 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> You appear to have over-looked this...
> ​



I note the cake baking and am conviced that she belives that her route to the  Tory cabinet is Via "Celebrity Bake Off".


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 4, 2015)

tim said:


> I note the cake baking and am conviced that she belives that her route to the  Tory cabinet is Via "Celebrity Bake Off".



Or, in Richard Seymour's case, 'Celebrity Dickhead':

Guardian Writer's Vile Slur Against Falklands Hero

I'm by no means fond of either Bloodworth or Guido, but this is vile.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Sep 4, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Or, in Richard Seymour's case, 'Celebrity Dickhead':
> 
> Guardian Writer's Vile Slur Against Falklands Hero
> 
> I'm by no means fond of either Bloodworth or Guido, but this is vile.



Beat me to it!


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 5, 2015)

I take it the clock ran out on Little Richard's attempt to finish his PhD?

Or may we yet have the chance to remind him that he's not a real doctor?


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 5, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I take it the clock ran out on Little Richard's attempt to finish his PhD?



I seriously thought you meant the real one.  Now _that _would be an interesting read.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 5, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> I seriously thought you meant the real one.



That's PhD training for you.


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 5, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I take it the clock ran out on Little Richard's attempt to finish his PhD?
> 
> Or may we yet have the chance to remind him that he's not a real doctor?



He doesn't sound like an ally of the sick and disabled either, come to think of it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 5, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> He doesn't sound like an ally of the sick and disabled either, come to think of it.


It's a peculiar kind of intelligence that makes you go "you know what, even Frankie Boyle wouldn't say something like that".


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 5, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> It's a peculiar kind of intelligence that makes you go "you know what, even Frankie Boyle wouldn't say something like that".



That's saying something.

And 'Doctor.' Seymour? I'd probably get a less unpleasant bedside manner from this 'Doctor' and he didn't have decent medical qualifications, either:


----------



## J Ed (Sep 17, 2015)

Malcom Harris' fellow scab at the scab magazine that him and Laurie Penny write for has been slagging off teachers


----------



## 8den (Sep 18, 2015)

Wrong Thread


----------



## emanymton (Sep 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Malcom Harris' fellow scab at the scab magazine that him and Laurie Penny write for has been slagging off teachers



Harris has form for this as well. 
Is it just because they are dicks, or are teachers see differently in America? Note I am not suggesting they are not dicks just wondering if this is part of something wider.


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Harris has form for this as well.
> Is it just because they are dicks, or are teachers see differently in America? Note I am not suggesting they are not dicks just wondering if this is part of something wider.



There's plenty on here who've gone with the "teachers are cops" type line before tbh.


----------



## dendrite (Sep 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Malcom Harris' fellow scab at the scab magazine that him and Laurie Penny write for has been slagging off teachers




Oh that's just mean. There's something about the commitment of generosity in public service jobs, which feels like prey to leftier that thou yuppies.


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Malcom Harris' fellow scab at the scab magazine that him and Laurie Penny write for has been slagging off teachers




Have any of the scabberati ever satisfactorily explained why, given their oh-so-avowed leftie principles, they'd be seen writing for a union-busting publication in the first place?


----------



## rekil (Sep 21, 2015)

He's just the type to do it too.


----------



## JimW (Sep 21, 2015)

copliker said:


> He's just the type to do it too.
> 
> View attachment 76998


Unmitigated filth bastard.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 21, 2015)

copliker said:


> He's just the type to do it too.
> 
> View attachment 76998



Wtf?!


----------



## Belushi (Sep 21, 2015)

He's such a prick.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2015)




----------



## YouSir (Sep 23, 2015)

J Ed said:


>



I like the mask of anonymity bit, as if 'The Myth of Progress' suddenly admitting that yes, they are Debbie from Hull will make him suddenly take the question seriously.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 29, 2015)

Did anyone read LP's Cameron/pig article? I mean she managed to attend a Harvard journalism programme and still come out a worse writer. Quite some talent.

Oh, speaking of hacks. Bloodworth just wants to be Cohen right?! Labour Party: Nick Cohen, and why I won't be leaving the left - Cohen probably only quit the left again because his book is getting republished.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 29, 2015)

pretend Doc / Vote Yvette shill has change of heart : 

*Jack Monroe* ‏@DrJackMonroe  1 hr1 hour ago
While I'm in a humble apologetic mood; I was wrong about Corbyn. Wrong to judge him through a weird media kaleidoscope. He is remarkable.

145 retweets235 favourites


----------



## Belushi (Sep 29, 2015)

cantsin said:


> pretend Doc / Vote Yvette shill has change of heart :
> 
> *Jack Monroe* ‏@DrJackMonroe  1 hr1 hour ago
> While I'm in a humble apologetic mood; I was wrong about Corbyn. Wrong to judge him through a weird media kaleidoscope. He is remarkable.
> ...



LOL reverse ferrets all over the place at the moment


----------



## cantsin (Sep 29, 2015)

Belushi said:


> LOL reverses ferrets all over the place at the moment



loads of fawning fans applauding her for having the honesty to change her mind.

I skulked away ( virtually) , wanting to gauge my own eyes out.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 10, 2015)

cantsin said:


> I skulked away ( virtually) , wanting to gauge my own eyes out.



She's probably got a budget recipe for those (whether it uses ingredients from a certain major supermarket chain is another matter).


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2015)

Fucking hell Monroe's bleating about the egg throwing is making me rage. Fucking scumbag.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fucking hell Monroe's bleating about the egg throwing is making me rage. Fucking scumbag.


What's she saying?


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

Best one was suggesting people throwing eggs should join the army...?



Not to mention the weirdness of thinking throwing eggs is violent, is she so fucking totally ignorant of the place violence has played as a part of struggles?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> is she so fucking totally ignorant of the place violence has played as a part of struggles?


definitely


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Best one was suggesting people throwing eggs should join the army...?
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention the weirdness of thinking throwing eggs is violent, is she so fucking totally ignorant of the place violence has played as a part of struggles?




Throwing eggs at Tories is abhorrent and morally wrong, go and shoot foreigners dead for Tories instead


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Throwing eggs at Tories is abhorrent and morally wrong, go and shoot foreigners dead for Tories instead


its one of the most batshit things ive ever read  amazingly stupid

i wonder what she wouldve made of the suffragette bombing campaign


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

I think it's connected to this cultural/political thing that's going on about offense and people being upset or made to feel 'unsafe' since Monroe seems to have fully embraced some of the more idiotic elements of intersectional politics?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think it's connected to this cultural/political thing that's going on about offense and people being upset or made to feel 'unsafe' since Monroe seems to have fully embraced some of the more idiotic elements of intersectional politics?


Interesting...thats possible... Even if she's working her way through some Nonviolent Direct Action 101 issues, comparing an egging to joining the army gets an F

Its a funny over sensitivity over the impact of a thrown egg and a lack of sensitivity of the carnage the army does...very twisted

Or maybe its just a tweet and like all tweets isnt worth overanalysing. I look forward to 800 words on the subject


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)

She is a brand, she cannot not condemn direct action because if she did she would no longer make any money. Anyone who engages with her online is engaging with someone who has become their own PR person as well as marketing person. Like Laurie Penny she is a 'personal ethical brand'.


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

She could just not say anything surely? That's the safest and easiest thing to do. I suspect she does actually believe what she says with the condemnation. I think she's in a different ball park to Laurie Penny tbh, who seems a bit more clued in politically.


----------



## rekil (Oct 11, 2015)

lol


----------



## andysays (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> She could just not say anything surely? That's the safest and easiest thing to do. I suspect she does actually believe what she says with the condemnation. I think she's in a different ball park to Laurie Penny tbh, who seems a bit more clued in politically.



Throwing eggs is a pretty shocking waste of food, TBH. 

Maybe she should write a page on her blog about how they could be part of a tasty recipe for the struggling unemployed, assuming she still does the blog.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 11, 2015)

andysays said:


> Throwing eggs is a pretty shocking waste of food, TBH.
> 
> Maybe she should write a page on her blog about how they could be part of a tasty recipe for the struggling unemployed, assuming she still does the blog.


Yes, I was expecting her to comment on the waste of food  not that it was akin to joining the army.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2015)

are people still whining about the fucking egg? You didn't see presscot wailing about his egging, or turning tail and fleeing into the buildin. Jon got right fisty instead


----------



## andysays (Oct 11, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, I was expecting her to comment on the waste of food  not that it was akin to joining the army.



Personally, I'd prefer to eat the eggs before I went on the demo so I had the energy to throw other stuff, like half bricks maybe, which don't have any nutritional value


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

What's hilarious/tragic/pathetic is that it's not the Tories whining, it's the fucking lefties!


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)

andysays said:


> Personally, I'd prefer to eat the eggs before I went on the demo so I had the energy to throw other stuff, like half bricks maybe, which don't have any nutritional value



We could call it the Mad Gainz 4 bricking Tories diet


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> She could just not say anything surely? That's the safest and easiest thing to do. I suspect she does actually believe what she says with the condemnation. I think she's in a different ball park to Laurie Penny tbh, who seems a bit more clued in politically.



She's positioning herself as a brand. There is a lot of demand for being 'a left-winger who is unafraid to join in with denunciations of other left-wingers over petty issues whipped up by tabloids'.


----------



## rekil (Oct 11, 2015)

Laurie's attitude to the refugee crisis before and after it became clickworthy. 






			
				new shitsman 2 weeks ago said:
			
		

> It is not a question of numbers. It is a question of justice. It is a question of what is owed to those who have been made homeless and desperate by war and climate change. When a stranger is suffocating at your feet, you do not help them because you are a good person, or because it is politically expedient to do so: you help them because to do otherwise is morally repugnant.


----------



## andysays (Oct 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> We could call it the Mad Gainz 4 bricking Tories diet



Less of the "we" - it's *my* idea and I'm going to use it to launch my own brand of "recipes for rioters" - just setting up the blog now and then going to see about a publishing deal


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)




----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2015)

ammonia filled snooker balls in piss jus


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

Call me a softie liberal, but I'd be interested to see a discussion with Monroe about this stuff. Like do you think she's aware of that dynamic and has made a hard headed financial choice to go along with it, or is it ignorance, or she actually politically believes it, or some combination of them or something else entirely?

I might be crediting her with too much integrity/nouse, but my suspicion is that she's a bit caught up in the media whirlwind of sycophants where among her friends and work colleagues she can't say anything wrong, and the folks criticizing her on t'internet are a minority of macho anarchist haters.

Actually, just read some of her puke inducing fawning over Corbyn. No discussion, up against the wall.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Actually, just read some of her puke inducing fawning over Corbyn. No discussion, up against the wall.



Look at the stuff about Dan Jarvis.


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

She should be fed dry lentils and fizzy pop until she explodes in some austerity recreation of the gluttony scene from the film Seven.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2015)

dan jarvis is ex para so presumably he'd have gunned the egger and bystanders down in cold blood and then got the state to let him off


----------



## rekil (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Actually, just read some of her puke inducing fawning over Corbyn. No discussion, up against the wall.


She's in the Greens for now, at their conference in Scotland atm.


----------



## rekil (Oct 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> dan jarvis is ex para so presumably he'd have gunned the egger and bystanders down in cold blood and then got the state to let him off


Don't forget to plant eggs in the pockets of the dead bystanders.


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2015)

Reading her Twitter I'd say she's hugely politically naive more than anything. She was questioning how attacking the cereal cafe could be about 'building community', like that's the _only_ political reason to do anything.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> dan jarvis is ex para so presumably he'd have gunned the egger and bystanders down in cold blood and then got the state to let him off



I think it's hilarious how much the Labour Right (and Monroe who apparently follows their lead) loves Dan Jarvis.

They literally think that since Dan Jarvis was in the military and all the thick proles love the army everyone will vote for him. That's it.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 11, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Best one was suggesting people throwing eggs should join the army...?
> 
> 
> Not to mention the weirdness of thinking throwing eggs is violent, is she so fucking totally ignorant of the place violence has played as a part of struggles?


I've always thought of throwing eggs as a substitute for violence. This could be a brick or a glass bottle bit I'm not violent so it's an egg. A bit unpleasant but in no way painfully or potentially harmful.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 11, 2015)

copliker said:


> Laurie's attitude to the refugee crisis before and after it became clickworthy.
> 
> View attachment 77937



Funny how issues and people affected thereby suddenly assume greater importance when they're obvious enough to become grist to the career mill, isn't it? As for 'Nobody seemed very receptive to press', well, that's their prerogative and hardly the stern stuff required of anything resembling credible investigative journalism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I think it's hilarious how much the Labour Right (and Monroe who apparently follows their lead) loves Dan Jarvis.
> 
> They literally think that since Dan Jarvis was in the military and all the thick proles love the army everyone will vote for him. That's it.


this post made me think about how I could frame the crit of that regiment to a serving or ex members face without being 'introduced to the pavement'. Not been able to come up with much so far lol.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> She's positioning herself as a brand. There is a lot of demand for being 'a left-winger who is unafraid to join in with denunciations of other left-wingers over petty issues whipped up by tabloids'.



Fauxcalism with an Establishment face.

Or playing the double-headed Penny. 

Ba-doom! Tish!

Did you see what I did there?


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 15, 2015)

The Independent's Jane Merrick has been throwing a fairly spectacular tantrum after a mild prodding by Aaron Bastani.






There's other bits where she accuses Bastani of wanting journalists sacked and how this is outrageous behaviour, but the above's the eyebrow-raiser. Remember kids, you're only doing journalism if Jane Merrick, author of Clubbing is now in decline, great I hated it!, says you are. Because she works for a proper big paper dontchaknow. But it's very uncouth to point at sales figures these days, as though numbers should matter.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 15, 2015)

You know before I didn't like Aaron Bastani that much but I have to say that he is really good at winding up dickheads


----------



## J Ed (Oct 15, 2015)

This is great


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 15, 2015)

He did suggest that Nick Robinson and some others should be sacked for being shit. And it's hard to argue with that.

The outraged responses from various Oxbridge commentariat make it all worthwhile though.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 15, 2015)

Guido Fawkes is trying to link it to Corbyn, bafflingly:
Labour MP Raises Money to Get Journalists Fired


----------



## brogdale (Oct 18, 2015)

Couldn't resist; sorry.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Couldn't resist; sorry.


A secret underground anarchist library?????


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 18, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Call me a softie liberal, but I'd be interested to see a discussion with Monroe about this stuff. Like do you think she's aware of that dynamic and has made a hard headed financial choice to go along with it, or is it ignorance, or she actually politically believes it, or some combination of them or something else entirely?



She has her very own megathread.
In case you missed it:

A Girl Called Jack... time for action?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 18, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> A secret underground anarchist library?????


Ssshhhuuushhh!


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 18, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> A secret underground anarchist library?????



Yes, it's a specially-created troll-free zone. Nobody expresses differing opinions, politely disagrees or checks facts there.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 18, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Yes, it's a specially-created troll-free zone. Nobody expresses differing opinions, politely disagrees or checks facts there.



Don't trolls usually live underground? Or is that a troglodyte? I forget.

edit: OK I googled it. Trolls live under bridges, troglodytes in caves. It's Morlocks that live underground, although I think a Morlock is a type of troglodyte, so where this leaves us I don't know. Either way, anarchism!


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 18, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Don't trolls usually live underground? Or is that a troglodyte? I forget.



Trolls can live anywhere they're not in direct sunlight. If I remember rightly troglodytes are creatures that live entirely underground.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 18, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Don't trolls usually live underground? Or is that a troglodyte? I forget.


----------



## LDC (Oct 20, 2015)

Dr Jack Monroe is trans? Is that new, or am I behind the times? Not that it's important I know, but just wondering.
The Brave Man video is a fair portrait of trans life – it does not deserve your rage | Jack Monroe


----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Dr Jack Monroe is trans? Is that new, or am I behind the times? Not that it's important I know, but just wondering.
> The Brave Man video is a fair portrait of trans life – it does not deserve your rage | Jack Monroe


I wasnt aware opf that - her tweet which is linked to says:
"Yes I am transgender. Not all trans people transition from one binary gender to another"


----------



## LDC (Oct 20, 2015)

ska invita said:


> I wasnt aware opf that - her tweet which is linked to says:
> "Yes I am transgender. Not all trans people transition from one binary gender to another"



That's the only bit of decent opinion I could see on her whole Twitter feed.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2015)

This is why I hate twitter... Am curious about what she wants to tell the world, but a tweet leaves me nonethewiser


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

ska invita said:


> This is why I hate twitter... Am curious about what she wants to tell the world, but a tweet leaves me nonethewiser


perhaps they want to live their life feeling true to who they really feel they are. (Plus they no longer identity fully with the gender box marked 'girl' so female pronouns aren't appropriate.)


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 20, 2015)

Have they said they dont want female pronouns used?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Have they said they dont want female pronouns used?


 A couple of articles written about them coming out were quite careful to use they etc plus the 'a girl called' branding is being dropped.  can only assume that's down to them.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 20, 2015)

Ah ok, fair play to them.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Ah ok, fair play to them.


 Yeah, can only abide by their wishes really.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Oct 20, 2015)

ska invita said:


> I wasnt aware opf that - her tweet which is linked to says:
> "Yes I am transgender. Not all trans people transition from one binary gender to another"



What does that mean?


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 20, 2015)

Being non-binary: I’m not A Girl Called Jack any more, but I’m not a boy either

I dont really understand what non binary is tbh but tthey have written an article about it here. Best of luck tbh, not interested in joining in hatefests


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Oct 20, 2015)

"Non binary, in simple terms, means outside of the binary gender norms of “male” and “female”."

Still none the wiser.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Oct 20, 2015)

Spent the last 10 minutes googling binary gender and I am more confused than ever.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm not getting involved in trans politics. Position on the ripper museum was quite clear though. Perhaps the sex workers had privilege.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 20, 2015)

Nice avatar Teenage Cthulhu


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

To be honest I don't claim to fully understand it either. But then it doesn't have to make sense to me, in a way it only has to make sense to Jack Monroe and other non binary transgendered people. 

I understand that it means they are moving from the box marked 'girl' or 'boy' to the box (such as it is) marked 'none/both of the above). And I say 'such as it is' because to me it seems that the point being made is that gender doesn't fit in neat little boxes, that like sexuality it's more of a fluid concept. It might be a spectrum with boy at one end and girl at the other. Some people identify 100% at either end but others like jack are somewhere inbetween.

But I am no expert and I might have gotten this completely wrong.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 20, 2015)

Ive never had much slightest interest in stereotypically 'girly stuff' and have often wondered whether i'd more happy as a man. Doubt it though.  and tbh i prefer wearing dresses and skirts these days tbh


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm not bothered what people identify as. It'll get up my nose if wheels of oppression come into play to justify her support of misogyny or the bashing of the working class though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 20, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> her



I even tried not to do that.


----------



## Theisticle (Oct 20, 2015)

Here's Laurie Penny indirectly plagiarising her own editor.

LP: When is a terrorist not a terrorist? (October 17).

Helen Lewis: When is a terrorist not a terrorist? When he’s a white man with a gun (July 2).

I am, though, impressed with LP's ability to arrive at a topic later than everyone and still manage to offer no original opinions.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Here's Laurie Penny indirectly plagiarising her own editor.
> 
> LP: When is a terrorist not a terrorist? (October 17).
> 
> ...


That is a skill all of its own. Bet she learned how to do that at Harvard.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> To be honest I don't claim to fully understand it either. But then it doesn't have to make sense to me, in a way it only has to make sense to Jack Monroe and other non binary transgendered people.
> 
> I understand that it means they are moving from the box marked 'girl' or 'boy' to the box (such as it is) marked 'none/both of the above). And I say 'such as it is' because to me it seems that the point being made is that gender doesn't fit in neat little boxes, that like sexuality it's more of a fluid concept. It might be a spectrum with boy at one end and girl at the other. Some people identify 100% at either end but others like jack are somewhere inbetween.
> 
> But I am no expert and I might have gotten this completely wrong.


I get that, but does finding your spot on a spectrum count as trans? If so I'm trans too! Which if everyone is happy with Id be happy with too


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

ska invita said:


> I get that, but does finding your spot on a spectrum count as trans? If so I'm trans too! Happy with that


seriously, I am no expert on the transgender spectrum, that's just my own understanding of what non binary transgendered means. I might be completely wrong.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 21, 2015)

My only problem with this so far is talking about a serious subject full of nuance on twitter, and half the tweet taken up by a hashtag


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 21, 2015)

Merrick been defending Heidi Allen over on twitter for her 'oh so brave' speech in the commons about tax credits cuts before voting them


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 21, 2015)

Theisticle said:


> Here's Laurie Penny indirectly plagiarising her own editor.
> 
> LP: When is a terrorist not a terrorist? (October 17).
> 
> ...



Could be worse. If Hari had written that he'd probably have included a selfie with Osama bin Laden.

And plenty of quotes.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Could be worse. If Hari had written that he'd probably have included a selfie with Osama bin Laden.
> 
> And plenty of quotes.


plenty of made up quotes, you mean


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> plenty of made up quotes, you mean



"It was dawn. Dawn in the sweltering heat of Osama's mountain retreat. We sat watching the sun, awaiting the incoming drone strikes, watching for the tanks, listening intently for the helicopter gunships and the SAS snatch squads that we felt sure must come. As i looked at him and he loked at me we shared a momentary bond, a mutual understanding. He gazed at me with his wise, warm, wrinkled features and totally ruined the moment, ruined MY moment (hugely important and consequential because I'm a Western scribbler and darling of the commentariat, obviously), by saying: 

"Yes, your career really is based almost entirely on a tissue of bullshit, isn't it..?"


----------



## toggle (Oct 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Ive never had much slightest interest in stereotypically 'girly stuff' and have often wondered whether i'd more happy as a man. Doubt it though.  and tbh i prefer wearing dresses and skirts these days tbh



cause it's complicated. innit. 

I know i have serious issues with the expectations of gendered behavior, but its about the difference in being a female who does not feel comfortable with femininity, and not identifying as female. I know i got a lot more comfy with being female once I understood that I didn't have to behave according to someone else's diktat on what was acceptable female behavior.  but although i don't really understand jack's dicussion, their explanation sure as hell sounds a lot different to my experiences. which is why i reckon the terfs have it well wrong on trans identities.



Bakunin said:


> "It was dawn. Dawn in the sweltering heat of Osama's mountain retreat. We sat watching the sun, awaiting the incoming drone strikes, watching for the tanks, listening intently for the helicopter gunships and the SAS snatch squads that we felt sure must come. As i looked at him and he loked at me we shared a momentary bond, a mutual understanding. He gazed at me with his wise, warm, wrinkled features and totally ruined the moment, ruined MY moment (hugely important and consequential because I'm a Western scribbler and darling of the commentariat, obviously), by saying:
> 
> "Yes, your career really is based almost entirely on a tissue of bullshit, isn't it..?"



you clearly have the literacy requirements.....


----------



## toggle (Oct 21, 2015)

I just got a look that would curdle milk....


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 21, 2015)

toggle said:


> cause it's complicated. innit.
> 
> I know i have serious issues with the expectations of gendered behavior, but its about the difference in being a female who does not feel comfortable with femininity, and not identifying as female. I know i got a lot more comfy with being female once I understood that I didn't have to behave according to someone else's diktat on what was acceptable female behavior.  but although i don't really understand jack's dicussion, their explanation sure as hell sounds a lot different to my experiences. which is why i reckon the terfs have it well wrong on trans identities.
> 
> ...



Yeah agreed. I cant say ive ever felt like the way they  describe at all. It was a really interesting read tbh


----------



## toggle (Oct 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah agreed. I cant say ive ever felt like the way they  describe at all. It was a really interesting read tbh



absolutely. although i don't think i'll ever stop finding it all a little confusing.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 21, 2015)

And the way terfs (for want of a better word) describe the current day situation of womanhood and 'how it is for all women' is completely alien to me too tbh.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> And the way terfs (for want of a better word) describe the current day situation of womanhood and 'how it is for all women' is completely alien to me too tbh.


 I don't fit into the typical 'heels and make up' femininity box either, and the way terfs speak about womanhood is anathema to me. I don't recognise what I live every day in their descriptions.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I don't fit into the typical 'heels and make up' femininity box either, and the way terfs speak about womanhood is anathema to me. I don't recognise what I live every day in their descriptions.



Like according to some of them you would think that all women were kept permanently pregnant and chained to a kitchen. Im not denying it is that bad for some people, but every woman? Nah


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 21, 2015)

I saw one ages ago that said that girls wearing high heels was just as bad as foot binding   i dont wear high heels and they are bad for you, but its nowhere near the universally accepted mutilationary practice foot binding was in china ffs!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I saw one ages ago that said that girls wearing high heels was just as bad as foot binding   i dont wear high heels and they are bad for you, but its nowhere near the universally accepted mutilationary practice foot binding was in china ffs!


 Yeah, there seems to a lot of hysterical handwaving and over extrapolation.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 22, 2015)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 22, 2015)

J Ed said:


>




Not been hanging around our politicians much then?


----------



## rekil (Oct 23, 2015)

copliker said:


> Laurie's attitude to the refugee crisis before and after it became clickworthy.
> 
> View attachment 77937


From that same NS article, this amazing lie is still there. 


> There is a reason that Angela Merkel’s response, in June, to a demonstration where the bodies of drowned migrants were buried on the front lawn of the Bundestag was stony silence. All of this has happened before. All of this, in fact, is precisely what the European Union was established to prevent.




James Bloodworth blocked loads of people who questioned his made up stuff about Cubans in Syria and his general shitness. That'll do it James.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 23, 2015)

James Bloodworth is one of the most dishonest members of the commentariat, he is willing to say absolutely anything, which is probably why his star is rising so quickly


----------



## rekil (Oct 27, 2015)

...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 27, 2015)

They Shat on her head  and lit it afire.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 27, 2015)

Respect to molly, she knew the score.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 27, 2015)

I've heard some of Owen Jones's sexual antics. 

Sounds rather cold.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 27, 2015)

Snowman fetish?


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 27, 2015)

Women can’t have it all – because the game is rigged


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Women can’t have it all – because the game is rigged


drivel. Utterly obvious and unoriginal. Banal. I'm going to stop before I end up posting a very long rant about the article's poor quality.  her writing was not so universally and repeatedly substance free before Harvard - if this is the quality of writing one can aspire post-harvard then I am glad I will never get to go.

It's a shame really,  the subject itself opens up interesting avenues for discussion.  There's no need for the article to be quite so flimsy- she doesn't even make the point that the main reason some married men don't have to worry about work life balance is down to their spouse taking care of the 'wife work', which can include chores, cooking, shopping for food, paying bills, childcare, school runs, general chauffeur services, arranging appointments, remembering family birthdays and so on.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 27, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> drivel. Utterly obvious and unoriginal. Banal. I'm going to stop before I end up posting a very long rant about the article's poor quality.  her writing was not so universally and repeatedly substance free before Harvard - if this is the quality of writing one can aspire post-harvard then I am glad I will never get to go.
> 
> It's a shame really,  the subject itself opens up interesting avenues for discussion.  There's no need for the article to be quite so flimsy- she doesn't even make the point that the main reason some married men don't have to worry about work life balance is down to their spouse taking care of the 'wife work', which can include chores, cooking, shopping for food, paying bills, childcare, school runs, general chauffeur services, arranging appointments, remembering family birthdays and so on.



Somewhat sad that somebody from Harvard with years of experience still manages to take potentially interesting issue and reduce it to empty platitudes and buzzword bingo. Still, another day another byline.


----------



## eoin_k (Oct 27, 2015)

Not sure that Molly has anything to do with that book before people get carried away slagging it off... Looks like she is just doing a gig at a book launch for Kate Evans.

Not sure if Kate deserves to be on a thread reserved for the Commentariat; I've always had the sense that she lived her politics fairly honestly.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 28, 2015)

Billy Bragg defends Guardian's anti-Corbyn hysteria Billy Bragg on the Guardian's coverage of Jeremy Corbyn (with image, tweets) · huseyinkishi


----------



## Belushi (Oct 28, 2015)

Bragg can fuck right off.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 28, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Bragg can fuck right off.



He's just such a self-satisfied tool isn't he. I don't care about his politics tbh, he's a total bellend regardless.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 28, 2015)

He has all the political principles of a BUPA HR Manager


----------



## Belushi (Oct 28, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> He's just such a self-satisfied tool isn't he. I don't care about his politics tbh, he's a total bellend regardless.



I always thought he was a bit of a knob but the south bank skaters business really turned me against him.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 28, 2015)

J Ed said:


> He has all the political principles of a BUPA HR Manager


Impeccable


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 28, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Billy Bragg defends Guardian's anti-Corbyn hysteria Billy Bragg on the Guardian's coverage of Jeremy Corbyn (with image, tweets) · huseyinkishi


 
A millionaire LibDem would definitely be my first port of call when seeking an opinion on the pro-capital bias of a global media brand


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 28, 2015)

I still like In Our Time, though.


----------



## andysays (Oct 28, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I still like In Our Time, though.



Not sure which song you're referring to there 

Anyway, this one was written about the Thatcher govt, but could have easily been applied to the Blair govt with just a few small changes, and "the liberal (with a small l) weeping in front of the TV" could now be Billy himself wringing his hands on his twitter feed


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 28, 2015)

andysays said:


> Not sure which song you're referring to there


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 28, 2015)

andysays said:


> Not sure which song you're referring to there


 
He's not referring to a song, Great Uncle Idris2002 is just expressing his fondness for the Melvyn Bragg discussion programme on Radio 4


----------



## andysays (Oct 28, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> He's not referring to a song, Great Uncle Idris2002 is just expressing his fondness for the Melvyn Bragg discussion programme on Radio 4



OK, I see, he's doing a Bragg/Bragg joke.

Nice one Idris2002  Apologies for not getting it straight away


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 29, 2015)

And the hits just keep on coming...

The tragedy of James Bond


----------



## YouSir (Oct 29, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> And the hits just keep on coming...
> 
> The tragedy of James Bond



It's just so, so fucking pointless. It hurts to think of just how pointless it is. How much time and energy and money are wasted on such absolutely fucking pointless pointlessness.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 29, 2015)

YouSir said:


> It's just so, so fucking pointless. It hurts to think of just how pointless it is. How much time and energy and money are wasted on such absolutely fucking pointless pointlessness.



I disagree, I don't think that articles like these are pointless. Or at least their very pointlessness serves a useful function. The New $cabsman, and the Guardian, put stuff like this out about pop culture at a pretty consistent rate and for good reason. This sort of 'radical' pop culture commentary gives the appearance of challenging structural issues while doing nothing of the sort. The legitimacy provided by this faux-radicalism can then be used to give the impression that their critiques of anything to the left of Blairism come from a radical position rather than the same position of entrenched privilege as the editorial position of the Daily Mail or the Telegraph. You can talk about Tories mansplaining to fellow Oxbridge women or Lady Gaga's racist hair or whatever till the cows come home, great, just don't elect a politician that threatens private profits because that's going too far.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 29, 2015)

Lady Gaga has racist hair? Did I miss something?


----------



## YouSir (Oct 29, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Lady Gaga has racist hair? Did I miss something?



Sure it's all the excessive dressing up, on her last tour she had Jim Davidson perched on her head doing an old school Rasta impression. I hear next time out she's using Bernard Manning as a merkin. Slebs eh?


----------



## YouSir (Oct 29, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I disagree, I don't think that articles like these are pointless. Or at least their very pointlessness serves a useful function. The New $cabsman, and the Guardian, put stuff like this out about pop culture at a pretty consistent rate and for good reason. This sort of 'radical' pop culture commentary gives the appearance of challenging structural issues while doing nothing of the sort. The legitimacy provided by this faux-radicalism can then be used to give the impression that their critiques of anything to the left of Blairism come from a radical position rather than the same position of entrenched privilege as the editorial position of the Daily Mail or the Telegraph. You can talk about Tories mansplaining to fellow Oxbridge women or Lady Gaga's racist hair or whatever till the cows come home, great, just don't elect a politician that threatens private profits because that's going too far.



I can't argue with that. It's like the woman with the world on a turtle's back, pointlessness all the way.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 29, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Lady Gaga has racist hair? Did I miss something?



I don't know, it just seems like something that they would write about.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 29, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I don't know, it just seems like something that they would write about.



The fact I actually thought this was a genuine thing proves your point beautifully. This modern world.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 30, 2015)

I notice Novara Media now has a video starring one Eleanor Penny, sister to James Butler's Oxford chum...Laurie Penny!

Welcome to the new media, curiously similar to the old media...


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 30, 2015)

Incidentally, in a spirit of more constructive criticism, Bastani and Butler have said previously that it's been difficult to find women willing to go on Novara shows. Maybe they should think about the format they use, which requires a huge amount of 'front', not to say ego, in order not to appear silly in front of the mike/camera. Maybe they could try and think about formats that aren't authoratative talking heads staring down the camera, then maybe they could get a greater variety of people on....


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 30, 2015)

Brainaddict said:


> I notice Novara Media now has a video starring one Eleanor Penny, sister to James Butler's Oxford chum...Laurie Penny!
> 
> Welcome to the new media, curiously similar to the old media...



Yeah, I didn't notice that until this week either


----------



## LDC (Oct 30, 2015)

I really like the content (mostly) and politics (errr...mostly) of Novara and do appreciate projects like that are a huge commitment to keep going, but.... I do increasingly find some of the ego that comes across in some of the presentations a bit annoying and it's  starting to detract from an otherwise excellent project.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 30, 2015)

Watching Eleanor Penny is freaking me out, it's like Laurie Penny has inhabited multiple bodies. I wonder who's going to grow up to be Christopher and who will be Peter?


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 30, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Watching Eleanor Penny is freaking me out, it's like Laurie Penny has inhabited multiple bodies. I wonder who's going to grow up to be Christopher and who will be Peter?


 It is a little uncanny. I don't want to have a go at EP particularly though. It's more that Novara, after a long, hard search for women presenter talent, have finally settled on....the sister of an Oxford mate who already has a media profile. It's a bit _Guardian_ isn't it?


----------



## kavenism (Oct 30, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> And the hits just keep on coming...
> 
> The tragedy of James Bond





> Ultimately, it is terribly difficult to sustain an ironic erection. To do so involves a kind of anxiety that the men and boys of the 21st century know very well.


Tha fuck?!


----------



## J Ed (Oct 30, 2015)

I have to say that of all the things I spend my time worrying about ironic erections is not amongst them...


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 30, 2015)

easiest target in the world tbf, Bond. Anyone who's given it a moments thought realises they are cheering for an upper class sociopathic remorseles state killer. Turn the lense on somthing else- GoT, Who, Gaimans twee heroines- well thats harder.



> a copy of the *Patriot Act*: savage and silly and just a little bit pathetic.



Civil Contingencies Bill. Bond is not Bourne


----------



## J Ed (Oct 30, 2015)

She already wrote a shit article about GoT after obviously never actually watching it


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 31, 2015)

Brainaddict said:


> I notice Novara Media now has a video starring one Eleanor Penny, sister to James Butler's Oxford chum...Laurie Penny!
> 
> Welcome to the new media, curiously similar to the old media...



Two second-rate professional martyrs, no waiting.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 31, 2015)

Come to think of it, I'd expect a well-paid, supposedly professional and radical journalist to come up with news about issues that actually matter. Syria, refugees, welfare reform, the persecution of the sick and disabled, that sort of thing. Not turn in copy on irrelevant prattle that reads like a third-rate 'A' level cultural or media studies essay.

There's a whole raft of social, national and international issues that matter to which anybody with a public profile might devote an entire page. And perhaps might have any radical position they claim to espouse be better illustrated by actually doing so.


----------



## 8den (Oct 31, 2015)

YouSir said:


> It's just so, so fucking pointless. It hurts to think of just how pointless it is. How much time and energy and money are wasted on such absolutely fucking pointless pointlessness.



And done so much better by Mitchell & Webb


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Come to think of it, I'd expect a well-paid, supposedly professional and radical journalist to come up with news about issues that actually matter. Syria, refugees, welfare reform, the persecution of the sick and disabled, that sort of thing. Not turn in copy on irrelevant prattle that reads like a third-rate 'A' level cultural or media studies essay.
> 
> There's a whole raft of social, national and international issues that matter to which anybody with a public profile might devote an entire page. And perhaps might have any radical position they claim to espouse be better illustrated by actually doing so.


Yes, apart from her piece about living in a LBGQT collective in East London everything she wrote since she returned from the US is not even hinting at anything substantial or interesting (and even that article was pointing out how radical she was from the safety of her middle class lifestyle).  where are her articles about the junior doctors contracts, foodbanks in hospitals,  the jack the ripper museum masquerading as women's history?


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 31, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, apart from her piece about living in a LBGQT collective in East London everything she wrote since she returned from the US is not even hinting at anything substantial or interesting (and even that article was pointing out how radical she was from the safety of her middle class lifestyle).  where are her articles about the junior doctors contracts, foodbanks in hospitals,  the jack the ripper museum masquerading as women's history?



I'd have thought the Ripper museum would have caught her attention.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 31, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> I'd have thought the Ripper museum would have caught her attention.


I think that's the one that surprises me the most, given her much vaunted feminist credentials.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 31, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I think that's the one that surprises me the most, given her much vaunted feminist credentials.



Definitely not the potential for hyperbolic, depth-free clickbait involving the use of questionable 'facts,' 'facts' that might then be blamed on yet another incompetent sub-editor should it become expedient, obviously.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 31, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I think that's the one that surprises me the most, given her much vaunted feminist credentials.



Much vaunted or vaulted?


----------



## 8den (Nov 1, 2015)

Fucking hell she was quoted extensively in the guardian today in an article about "Generation K"


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 1, 2015)

generation ketamine?


----------



## 8den (Nov 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> generation ketamine?



Katniss...

Generation Ketamine would be more fun but less functional.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 1, 2015)

I think I'm going to have to join Generation Ketamine to continue reading the Graunid


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2015)




----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2015)

8den said:


> Fucking hell she was quoted extensively in the guardian today in an article about "Generation K"


I tried to look up what the fuck GenK is supposed to be...and I'm now even more confused. Is this whole cohort supposedly named after a character in a television programme?
FFS


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 1, 2015)

it should have all stoped after 'generation x'. I don't mind 'millenials' so much even if its largely used by wanks to write pieces about modern youth culture. It just sounds well futuristic so its fine with me.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I think I'm going to have to join Generation Ketamine to continue reading the Graunid



Love the comment on that article from ChineseGordon:

'Is this an article in the Guardian? Or a sixteen year olds sociology thesis? Either way both are flops.'


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2015)

> Writer and activist Laurie Penny, herself a first-era millennial at the age of 29, agrees. “I think what today’s young people have grasped that my generation didn’t get until our early 20s, is that adults don’t know everything,” she says. “They might be trying their best but they don’t always have your best interests at heart. The current generation really understands that – they’re more politically engaged and they have more sense of community because they’re able to find each other easily thanks to their use of technology.”


Always an "activist." Apart from noting that as usual, she's talking about herself and her lifestylism, where does one start with this load of toilet.


----------



## 8den (Nov 1, 2015)

brogdale said:


> I tried to look up what the fuck GenK is supposed to be...and I'm now even more confused. Is this whole cohort supposedly named after a character in a television programme?
> FFS



It's a movie, apparently she represents "distrust in authority and a strong sense of right and wrong" that define " this generation"

Wankbags (the notion not anyone born after 2001)


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2015)

copliker said:


> Always an "activist." Apart from noting that as usual, she's talking about herself and her lifestylism, where does one start with this load of toilet.


What a load of shite.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2015)

copliker said:


> Always an "activist." Apart from noting that as usual, she's talking about herself and her lifestylism, where does one start with this load of toilet.



Got to keep up the Prada-Meinhof radical chic image, though. All part of building that 'ethical' personal brand, after all.


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2015)

Noreena Hertz is worse. 



> “In previous generations teenagers did not think in this way. Unlike the first-era millennials [who Hertz classes as those aged between 20 and 30] who grew up believing that the world was their oyster and ‘Yes we can’, this new generation knows the world is an unequal and harsh place.”


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2015)

And she should know, being busy actually killing russians in her 20s.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> And she should know, being busy actually killing russians in her 20s.


Before playing Donovan to Naomi Klein's Dylan.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Before playing Donovan to Naomi Klein's Dylan.


In neither case do i feel the repenthation to be real.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> In neither case do i feel the repenthation to be real.


I don't think "repenthation" is actually a word, old man.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2015)

More nonsensizing i see.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> More nonsensizing i see.


Check your Edward Lear privilege.


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 1, 2015)

8den said:


> It's a movie, apparently she represents _"distrust in authority and a strong sense of right and wrong" that define " this generation"_



This is advertising speak, not social theory.


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 1, 2015)

What is the purpose of the generalisation 'generation'? - like 'nation' or whatever, it flattens out all class, gender etc differences to no good end.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

The Pale King said:


> What is the purpose of the generalisation 'generation'? - like 'nation' or whatever, it flattens out all class, gender etc differences to no good end.


In America at least, the purpose seems to be find some way to talk about American society without mentioning certain awkward facts (something like FJ Turner's concept of the frontier):

Strauss–Howe generational theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> generation ketamine?



Coincidentally whilst visiting family at the weekend, I happened upon a stash of old news clippings, including a 1996 _Observer _article about... 'The K Generation'.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> Coincidentally whilst visiting family at the weekend, I happened upon a stash of old news clippings, including a 1996 _Observer _article about... 'The K Generation'.


That's how you party Cinzano style, is it?


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2015)

Wtf is going on at Telesur? 

@3:50 mark - he can't be claiming that Marx's first book was Capital can he?  



Spoiler


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2015)

I've been enjoying minor thread favourite Mic Wright's content today.



Was he sacked from the Telegraph for plagiarism, or was that it Bloodworth, or both?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 1, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> That's how you party Cinzano style, is it?


Fuck yeah!


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> Fuck yeah!


"How would you like to come back to my place, and view my stash of old news clippings?"


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2015)

copliker said:


> Wtf is going on at Telesur?
> 
> @3:50 mark - he can't be claiming that Marx's first book was Capital can he?
> 
> ...



Jesus, if i weren't so shy


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2015)

Yes Idris2002   'weren't''


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Yes Idris2002   'weren't''


This is how you party Apron style is it?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> In America at least, the purpose seems to be find some way to talk about American society without mentioning certain awkward facts (something like FJ Turner's concept of the frontier):
> 
> Strauss–Howe generational theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I work with/for a lot of people who really believe in the concept of "millennials". I bet they're all namedropping "Generation K". As well as industry trendyism it's a general refusal to look at people as actually being human beings or use any sort of structural analysis to imagine what they might like and what they might do. Everything has to be down to magic generational qualities. Millennials all like social media so let's go on social media! but why do they like social media? who knows??? they're millennials!!! certainly wouldn't have anything to do with access to mobile tech and that our websites are shit and full of ads.

There is of course a whole industry of market analysts who exist to provide theoretical models to managers who don't understand people and don't care, and reassure them that it's okay not to care and treat people like aliens because the analysts have the answers. It doesn't really matter whether they're right or not as the managers they're selling to have all the money anyway. Dumb buzzphrases that look good on powerpoint slides are what you want.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 2, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> it should have all stoped after 'generation x'. I don't mind 'millenials' so much even if its largely used by wanks to write pieces about modern youth culture. It just sounds well futuristic so its fine with me.


She's onto 'millenials' today. Back to crowd-sourcing copy...


----------



## andysays (Nov 2, 2015)

brogdale said:


> She's onto 'millenials' today. Back to crowd-sourcing copy...




Wow, that will have the establishment shaking in its shoes...


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 2, 2015)

brogdale said:


> She's onto 'millenials' today. Back to crowd-sourcing copy...




All that crowdsourcing and a never-ending stream of bungling sub-editors, my heart bleeds.


----------



## agricola (Nov 2, 2015)

The Pale King said:


> What is the purpose of the generalisation 'generation'? - like 'nation' or whatever, it flattens out all class, gender etc differences to no good end.



"the generalization generation"

is it too late to copyright this?


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 2, 2015)

agricola said:


> "the generalization generation"
> 
> is it too late to copyright this?



 If the cap fits...


----------



## stethoscope (Nov 4, 2015)

Just putting this one here...


----------



## Belushi (Nov 4, 2015)

Poor Mark and Carol, forced to flog off their dead Mums old clothes.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Just putting this one here...


What a stupid suggestion - and it has already been studied anyway.


----------



## JimW (Nov 4, 2015)

They tried but were outbid by a West End production of the Rocky Horror Show.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 4, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Just putting this one here...



What I read here: ...as a fellow neoliberal devotee I too wished to bid on the jewellery and clothing so that I, like the other bidders, could masturbate in its presence


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2015)

its like kylo ren collecting Darth Vader relics


----------



## rekil (Nov 4, 2015)

Scuffles at the fees demo. Anybody from here there? Judging by her twitter machine content, I don't think the urban75 poster and official voice of youth Laurie Penny is. This is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 4, 2015)

She's getting a bit long in the tooth to be the voice of youth anymore.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 4, 2015)

Belushi said:


> She's getting a bit long in the tooth to be the voice of youth anymore.


Check your own yoof priv, Babyface


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2015)

copliker said:


> Scuffles at the fees demo. Anybody from here there? Judging by her twitter machine content, I don't think the urban75 poster and official voice of youth Laurie Penny is. This is why we can't have nice things.
> 
> View attachment 79115



It's a measure of her journalistic priorities and Prada-Meinhof posturing if, instead of covering actual issues, she files cod-psychology opinion on James Bond and Harry Potter.


----------



## rekil (Nov 4, 2015)

Belushi said:


> She's getting a bit long in the tooth to be the voice of youth anymore.


Still got it, still doing harry potter and playing dress up.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 4, 2015)

copliker said:


> Still got it, still doing harry potter and playing dress up.
> 
> View attachment 79118



She could've got more scary points if she'd blacked up as a pregnant, gay minstrel and then wrote a piece defending herself against accusations of racist, trans-homophobic, gynophobic, misogynistic misanthropy.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 4, 2015)

I don't know what she does to the enemy, but she frightens me.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2015)

Can anyone tell me exactly what Harry Potter and Bond have to do with actual issues like welfare reform, Syria, disability and so on?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 4, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Can anyone tell me exactly what Harry Potter and Bond have to do with actual issues like welfare reform, Syria, disability and so on?



They're all about killing people.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2015)

Buckaroo said:


> They're all about killing people.



The difference being that Syria, welfare reform, the persecution of the sick and disabled and suchlike kill actual people, not the products of a scriptwriter's imagination.

Yet our fearless 'voice of a generation' seems to think that said imaginary people are seemingly more worthy of coverage than the real ones dying real deaths in all sorts of places. Doesn't say much for anybody claiming to be a professional journalist that their news sense is that far off-kilter. Either that or they simply don't give a toss about said real issues involving real people. I'm remarkably glad that I don't and wouldn't cover true crime cases in a similarly unfeeling  and disinterested fashion.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 4, 2015)

She is painfully shallow. More concerned with image than substance.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 4, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> I don't know what she does to the enemy, but she frightens me.



She is the fucking enemy


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> She is the fucking enemy


Thought I'd set you up with an easy one there.

"Straight outta the park".


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 4, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Thought I'd set you up with an easy one there.
> 
> "Straight outta the park".


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 4, 2015)

J Ed said:


> She is the fucking enemy



Ah, the Penny's dropped for you then?


----------



## rekil (Nov 5, 2015)

Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre

Let's go! 



> Confirmed speakers so far include Billy Bragg, Nick Cohen, Simon Danczuk, Simon Hattenstone, Owen Jones, Suzanne Moore, Fraser Nelson, Martin Rowson, Tulip Siddiq, Polly Toynbee, Zoe Williams, and many more…
> 
> TICKETS
> 
> All Day Passes:£25


----------



## YouSir (Nov 5, 2015)

copliker said:


> Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre
> 
> Let's go!



Fuck me, would have been unremarkably pointless but for the inclusion of Danczuk and his ilk. Now it's just straight up confusing.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 5, 2015)

copliker said:


> Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre
> 
> Let's go!



I'm only going if they get Dan Hodges.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 5, 2015)

copliker said:


> Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre
> 
> Let's go!


I'm only going if Laurie is there -I almost feel miffed on her behalf that she's been left out. Almost. But not quite.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 5, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I'm only going if Laurie is there -I almost feel miffed on her behalf that she's been left out. Almost. But not quite.



There are other speakers too, maybe she just missed out on that headline spot. Check the 'TV I watched today' stage for her doing incisive cultural analysis.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 5, 2015)

copliker said:


> Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre
> 
> Let's go!


Come friendly bombs


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 5, 2015)

copliker said:


> Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre
> 
> Let's go!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2015)

copliker said:


> Alternative Party Conference  - Soho Theatre
> 
> Let's go!


tbf....


> *All Day* Passes:£25
> Your Day Pass will give you access to the Conference for the *full day*.


You get the full day for the price of an all day pass! You can tell this is a progressive event.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 5, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm only going if they get Dan Hodges.


Is that 'get' as in 'gonna git got'?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 5, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, apart from her piece about living in a LBGQT collective in East London everything she wrote since she returned from the US is not even hinting at anything substantial or interesting (and even that article was pointing out how radical she was from the safety of her middle class lifestyle).  where are her articles about the junior doctors contracts, foodbanks in hospitals,  the jack the ripper museum masquerading as women's history?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 5, 2015)

stuff_it said:


>


What's the smiley for?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 6, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Have they said they dont want female pronouns used?



Yes, they have. One of their Twitter posts links to a blog on their website where they ask for they / their etc pronouns to be used.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 6, 2015)

brogdale said:


> tbf....
> ​You get the full day for the price of an all day pass! You can tell this is a progressive event.



And if you sneak in without a ticket they punish you by making you watch the entire event on DVD.


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 7, 2015)

Suzanne Moore the other day:

It's good to be genderqueer but don't forget the sexual radicals who paved the way

...article seems to be in response to Laurie Penny coming out as genderqueer, which rather passed me by I'm afraid (not enough hours in the day and all that). But what caught my attention was this:

"To claim oneself as “other” has a touch of the Rachel Dolezal about it. Who you choose to have sex with and how you do it is radical only if you believe sex is your essential self, your deep-buried truth."

...in which Moore seems to be comparing Penny to Rachel Dolezal, albeit quite obliquely . It has led to a somewhat passive aggressive exchange between them on twitter. That is all.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2015)

I explained what genderqueer meant to one of my work colleagues yesterday. An interesting experience for both of us.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 7, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I'm only going if Laurie is there -I almost feel miffed on her behalf that she's been left out. Almost. But not quite.



Suzanne Moore didn't attend, according to her Twitter, because they were charging admission but not paying the speakers.

Whether or not that also accounts for the seeming absence of our beloved voice of a generation, I couldn't say.


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I explained what genderqueer meant to one of my work colleagues yesterday. An interesting experience for both of us.



I'm still baffled as to just what it does mean.

Is it simply someone who doesn't conform to all the stereotyped gender expectations, and doesn't wish to be pigeon-holed by their gender, or is there some more to it than that? And if it is just that (something which applies to me and I suspect a significant minority of people, male and female, gay and straight, etc), why should anyone really give a toss about Laurie Penny or anyone else coming out as or even just declaring their "genderqueerness"?

It strikes me as taking identity politics (which I'm not keen on at the best of times) to ever more ridiculous lengths in an attempt to demonstrate one's individual edginess - politics as a fancy-dress party.

(the questions are not directed specifically to equationgirl, BTW, they're general ones brought up by her post and a couple of earlier ones)


----------



## rekil (Nov 7, 2015)

andysays said:


> politics as a fancy-dress party.



Speaking of which...



> Tensions at Yale University hit a boiling point yesterday after an email about Halloween costumes created a week-long controversy on campus.
> 
> Students called for the resignation of Associate Master of Silliman College Erika Christakis after she responded to an email from the school’s Intercultural Affairs Council asking students to be thoughtful about the cultural implications of their Halloween costumes. According to The Washington Post, students are also calling for the resignation of her husband, Master of Silliman College, Nicholas Christakis, who defended her statement.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 7, 2015)

copliker said:


> Speaking of which...



American universities seem like a horror show to me, how more staff aren't quitting them rather than bothering with the endless pointless outrage is beyond me.


----------



## toggle (Nov 7, 2015)

andysays said:


> I'm still baffled as to just what it does mean.
> 
> Is it simply someone who doesn't conform to all the stereotyped gender expectations, and doesn't wish to be pigeon-holed by their gender, or is there some more to it than that? And if it is just that (something which applies to me and I suspect a significant minority of people, male and female, gay and straight, etc), why should anyone really give a toss about Laurie Penny or anyone else coming out as or even just declaring their "genderqueerness"?



it can be. oir it can be more. it's one of those terms that can either mean a lot or very little.

i could very easily use the term to describe myself, cause stuff, but i'm with suzanne more on this one. its being used to indicate radicalism, through having some fun with who you want to have fun with and wearing what you want to wear, not much more. discussed a but about this when lp's article about her genderqueer collective came out. post 11667 and onwards a bit. 

cause my feeling is that what suzanne more is calling them out on is the stuff that makes me feel nauseous about it. the bit where the priviagettes are collecting oppression points and its a relatively meaningless term that they can claim gives them another step away from cis-white-masculinity; another gorup they can be the voice of.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2015)

toggle said:


> it can be. oir it can be more. it's one of those terms that can either mean a lot or very little.
> 
> i could very easily use the term to describe myself, cause stuff, but i'm with suzanne more on this one. its being used to indicate radicalism, through having some fun with who you want to have fun with and wearing what you want to wear, not much more. discussed a but about this when lp's article about her genderqueer collective came out. post 11667 and onwards a bit.
> 
> cause my feeling is that what suzanne more is calling them out on is the stuff that makes me feel nauseous about it. the bit where the priviagettes are collecting oppression points and its a relatively meaningless term that they can claim gives them another step away from cis-white-masculinity; another gorup they can be the voice of.



Another spoke they can claim on their personal wheels of oppression. 

Fuck me, life is hard enough for most of us that we don't *need* to play oppression Top Trumps!


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Another spoke they can claim on their personal wheels of oppression.
> 
> Fuck me, life is hard enough for most of us that we don't *need* to play oppression Top Trumps!



That won't stop Penny Dreadful and her ilk from politely reminding us to check our privilege.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2015)

Some of the commentariat appear to be using genderqueer as the the label du jour andysays I explained it to a colleague as not fitting in either of the boxes marked 'boy' and 'girl', and left it at that. I am certainly no expert.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> That won't stop Penny Dreadful and her ilk from politely reminding us to check our privilege.



Of course not, just as it wouldn't stop me elucidating to her why being an Oxbridge-educated middle-class journo doesn't put her in a good position to tell us to check our privilege, despite her being female, being/claiming to be genderqueer, claiming to have a Jewish grandparent, and to live in a commune.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 7, 2015)

toggle said:


> it can be. oir it can be more. it's one of those terms that can either mean a lot or very little.
> 
> i could very easily use the term to describe myself, cause stuff, but i'm with suzanne more on this one. its being used to indicate radicalism, through having some fun with who you want to have fun with and wearing what you want to wear, not much more. discussed a but about this when lp's article about her genderqueer collective came out. post 11667 and onwards a bit.
> 
> cause my feeling is that what suzanne more is calling them out on is the stuff that makes me feel nauseous about it. the bit where the priviagettes are collecting oppression points and its a relatively meaningless term that they can claim gives them another step away from cis-white-masculinity; another gorup they can be the voice of.


Yeah. Given that it seems to be being waved about by some in the public eye to simply mean "hey I don't 100% agree with the expectations associated with my assigned gender and I'm more complex than that" I have sympathy with Moore's point that it's what you kind of expect, and it's true for everyone. It may be worth saying but it's an easy thing to say if your life is not being actively repressed, and, well, privilege and history need to be borne in mind.

The piece does fall apart a bit nearer the end though.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Some of the commentariat appear to be using genderqueer as the the label du journey andysays I explained it to a colleague as not fitting in either of the boxes marked 'boy' and 'girl', and left it at that. I am certainly no expert.



IMO the issue arises in the space between "not fitting in either of the boxes" (which is fairly common - many people deviate from the conventional gender definitions assigned to "boy" and "girl"), and *declaring* that you're genderqueer because you're comfortable fucking boys *and* girls, and take this to mean that you don't "fit in" with conventional gender definitions. Laurie was telling us she was bi long before she heard the term "genderqueer", and she's adopted the label as a mark of radical identity - a label she'll drop once it no longer facilitates her place in identity-political debate.


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## andysays (Nov 7, 2015)

According to Wikipedia (  at self)


> Genderqueer (GQ; alternatively non-binary) is a catch-all category for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine—identities which are thus outside of the gender binary





> genderqueer has been used as an adjective to refer to any people who transgress distinctions of gender, regardless of their self-defined gender identity, i.e. those who "queer" gender, expressing it non-normatively



I suppose calling yourself genderqueer and/or claiming that you're trangressing something does sound more exciting that simply saying you don't think people's lives and identities should be restricted by the socially imposed gender binary.


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## weepiper (Nov 7, 2015)

I guess I'm genderqueer then, although I wouldn't use that fucking word if I was being _paid _to


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## Thora (Nov 7, 2015)

Penny just means "I might be white, straight and middle class but honestly I'm not cis" (with a little bit of sneering at all the sheeple with their binary gender).

I'm sure when I first read her Buzzfeed article it said something like "the problem with feminism is it's obsessed with women".


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## frogwoman (Nov 7, 2015)

I hate the word queer, what about all the people 'triggered' by the fact that when they were at school it was used as a term of homophobic abuse?


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## CNT36 (Nov 7, 2015)

weepiper said:


> I guess I'm genderqueer then, although I wouldn't use that fucking word if I was being _paid _to


I thought the point of  lot of feminist discourse had been to free people from the need to fit into to narrowly defined gender roles. Creating a term to describe people who don't especially a fucking stupid one seems to shit on that.


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## weepiper (Nov 7, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> I thought the point of  lot of feminist discourse had been to free people from the need to fit into to narrowly defined gender roles. Creating a term to describe people who don't especially a fucking stupid one seems to shit on that.


Yes, I agree that they seem to be essentially missing the whole point of feminism.


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## J Ed (Nov 7, 2015)

'Genderqueer' is such an all encompassing term that I'm not sure that there is a single person in Britain who couldn't conceivably claim 'genderqueer' status.

Oh, he doesn't like football he must be genderqueer, she likes putting together flatpack furniture genderqueer... etc


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## Bakunin (Nov 7, 2015)

weepiper said:


> the whole point of feminism.



Is building an 'ethical personal brand,' isn't it?


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## toggle (Nov 7, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah. Given that it seems to be being waved about by some in the public eye to simply mean "hey I don't 100% agree with the expectations associated with my assigned gender and I'm more complex than that" I have sympathy with Moore's point that it's what you kind of expect, and it's true for everyone. It may be worth saying but it's an easy thing to say if your life is not being actively repressed, and, well, privilege and history need to be borne in mind.
> 
> The piece does fall apart a bit nearer the end though.




it's a bit disjointed, but this bit is what i really aggree with.



> Because if sex is just something you do rather than something you are, then it is way easier to play with gender. Yet it has become so muddled that every identity must be proclaimed in a hierarchy of grievance. This fragmentation, which is not intersectionality, but rather an increasingly insular discussion about cis-ness, microaggressions and trigger warnings, runs in horrific parallel to images of women being raped and killed all over the world.



which i reckon translates as asking if we can take a step back and look at the bigger picture as well for a while. because if you've got a voice that gets listened to, then wasting it on wibbling about your non-privilaged credentials makes it about you. and your sex life, and where you live and your haircut and your .....

i could have given my non priv credentials in the last post, but i'm not lp, so 'because stuff' will do. because then tis about the argument i'm making. not about me. Lp takes this making it all about her to extremes. moore indulges in a bit of her own as well, her own claim to special snowflake status is being spelled out through that. far froim innocent, but not anywhere near LP's level in this article. 


and she's also right about this shit not being intersectionality.


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## toggle (Nov 7, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Is building an 'ethical personal brand,' isn't it?




pukes.

it's ethics for people who think they are being green by loadingtheir shopping into thier 4x4 in reusable bags


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## toggle (Nov 7, 2015)

J Ed said:


> 'Genderqueer' is such an all encompassing term that I'm not sure that there is a single person in Britain who couldn't conceivably claim 'genderqueer' status.
> 
> Oh, he doesn't like football he must be genderqueer, she likes putting together flatpack furniture genderqueer... etc



yep. i just want to scream - stop sitting about labelling it and deciding what place it gives you in the hierarchy. go have some fun exploring it.


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## Bakunin (Nov 7, 2015)

toggle said:


> pukes.
> 
> it's ethics for people who think they are being green by loadingtheir shopping into thier 4x4 in reusable bags



Rather like fitting a tank with a catalytic converter, really.


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## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2015)

I'm a bloke.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 8, 2015)

The lady doth protest too much.


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## rekil (Nov 8, 2015)

Nick Cohen + Oxford = Explosive Take.



> Oxford University’s politics, philosophy and economics course was not established to create a ruling class.
> 
> Oxford’s triumph is the victory of a self-organising system, not a Gaullist masterplan. Ambitious young people who want to become politicians see that successful politicians have studied PPE. They apply to Oxford and become successful politicians themselves. Success breeds success and the machine feeds itself.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 8, 2015)

copliker said:


> Nick Cohen + Oxford = Explosive Take.


I was reading that in the pub earlier with my lip curling. I wanted to copy and paste a bit into a tweet but remembered that you can't do that with a paper copy of the Observer on the bar.



> I am a PPE graduate – who isn’t, darling? – and can testify that there wasn’t then, and is not now, anything resembling an Oxford ideology.



^ that bit


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## The Pale King (Nov 8, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I was reading that in the pub earlier with my lip curling. I wanted to copy and paste a bit into a tweet but remembered that you can't do that with a paper copy of the Observer on the bar.
> 
> 
> 
> ^ that bit



and this bit:

"You could say that Oxford’s dominance was acquired, like the British empire, in a fit of absent-mindedness."


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## muscovyduck (Nov 8, 2015)

Well it says everything that a PPE graduate a) thinks that lots of people are PPE graduates and b) doesn't understand what ideology is.


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## 8den (Nov 8, 2015)

Sorry is genderqueer 2010 speak for bisexual or am I thick? 

Or I'm a girl who plays video games and likes football so I'm "genderqueer"


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## Thora (Nov 8, 2015)

The second one.


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## toggle (Nov 8, 2015)

8den said:


> Sorry is genderqueer 2010 speak for bisexual or am I thick?
> 
> Or I'm a girl who plays video games and likes football so I'm "genderqueer"



yes.

it's both. 

or something else entirely.


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## CNT36 (Nov 9, 2015)

8den said:


> Sorry is genderqueer 2010 speak for bisexual or am I thick?
> 
> Or I'm a girl who plays video games and likes football so I'm "genderqueer"


I'd decided from your username and postings you were a man. Get in the box.


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## 8den (Nov 9, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> I'd decided from your username and postings you were a man. Get in the box.



Hey I don't like football and am binge watching the Gilmore Girls on Netflix. I'm genderqueer.


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## YouSir (Nov 9, 2015)

8den said:


> Hey I don't like football and am binge watching the Gilmore Girls on Netflix. I'm genderqueer.



No *I'm *genderqueer.






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## 8den (Nov 9, 2015)

YouSir said:


> No *I'm *genderqueer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I'm genderqueer and so is my non hetronormative life partner.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2015)

YouSir said:


> No *I'm *genderqueer.



Sometimes a fondness for snails and oysters is just a gastronomic preference


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## toggle (Nov 9, 2015)

in all seriousness, i suspect it's a useful term for those who know they don't fit with other people's expectations but aren't quite sure what box(es) they tick. or just want to get on and not tick any. or those who want to express difference and don't want to go into details. 

my problem with the term isn't it's existance, or it's lack of concrete meaning, but the use of it to claim extra status points in identity politics.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2015)

Enough with the duplicates


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 9, 2015)

Not sure I like the use of the term queer in any context, tbh (well maybe the original meaning of the word as something odd and quirky). I know it's supposed to be a reclamation of a term of abuse with the intention of turning it into something positive, but it still just seems like sweary offensiveness to me. Maybe I'm just becoming an old fuddy duddy.


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## 8den (Nov 9, 2015)

.


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## Bakunin (Nov 12, 2015)

8den said:


> Fucking hell she was quoted extensively in the guardian today in an article about "Generation K"



No wonder “Generation K” loves The Hunger Games – they can't rely on grown-ups either


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## 8den (Nov 12, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> No wonder “Generation K” loves The Hunger Games – they can't rely on grown-ups either



Well I'd say one thing, they are very green; recycling each other ideas for articles ad nauseum.


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## Bakunin (Nov 12, 2015)

8den said:


> Well I'd say one thing, they are very green; recycling each other ideas for articles ad nauseum.



It is rather a Prada-Meinhof, fauxcalist circle jerk, isn't it?


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## rekil (Nov 13, 2015)

Fantastic.


> When I was at school, Harry Potter and his friends were more important than the Greek pantheon. Harry, Ron and Hermione spoke to the values of my millennial cohort, who grew up convinced that if we were talented and worked hard, we would go to the equivalent of wizard school and lead magical lives in which good would ultimately prevail.


Will we plucky outsiders of £30k a year Brighton College and Oxford succeed 





> even if “the odds are never in our favour”





> Today’s teenagers are braver, better connected and less naive than any generation in living memory and it is up to the rest of us to stand behind them.


This is a little bit bollocks, and despite being so 'connected', the last person you chose to stand up behind was a nazi weirdo.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 13, 2015)

copliker said:


> This is a little bit bollocks, and despite being so 'connected', the last person you chose to stand up behind was a nazi weirdo.



Yeah, but you couldn't expect her not to follow the lead of her Noo Yawk wiberal buddies, could you (most of whom are as removed from "real life" as she is)?


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## 8den (Nov 13, 2015)

copliker said:


> Fantastic.
> 
> Will we plucky outsiders of £30k a year Brighton College and Oxford succeed
> 
> ...



Missed this. What nazi weirdo?


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## Idris2002 (Nov 13, 2015)

8den said:


> Missed this. What nazi weirdo?


The weev guy.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 13, 2015)

him of the jailhouse yoghurt . Life is too weird


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## 8den (Nov 13, 2015)

That particular chapter sailed right past me is it okay to call Laura a fucking idiot without getting labelled a misogynist?


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## Bakunin (Nov 13, 2015)

8den said:


> That particular chapter sailed right past me is it okay to call Laura a fucking idiot without getting labelled a misogynist?



That probably depends on whether or not you're male. If not, then other smears are available.


----------



## 8den (Nov 13, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> That probably depends on whether or not you're male. If not, then other smears are available.



We clear established earlier in this thread that I am a gender queer male.


----------



## LDC (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm gender queer, you're gender queer, she's gender queer, we're all gender queer.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 13, 2015)

We're all misogynists.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 13, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We're all misogynists.


What's wrong with being sexy?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 13, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> What's wrong with being sexy?



DaveCinzano, yesterday:


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2015)

copliker said:


> Fantastic.
> 
> Will we plucky outsiders of £30k a year Brighton College and Oxford succeed
> 
> ...


She claims this generation is braver and less naive than any other? Tell that to those who went into any number of wars when they were teenagers.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 13, 2015)

More content-free guff about free speech. This time white male liberals are to blame, apparently:

The free speech delusion


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2015)

http://m.theargus.co.uk/news/14031905.Pink_Floyd_legend_Dave_Gilmour_plays_in_front_of_a_small_crowd_at_Brighton_College/?ref=rss


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2015)

I'll just leave that link there - it's a news report on the opening of the new music school at penny's former school. Look who opened it.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 14, 2015)

> ...
> The college’s chamber choir were thrilled to accompany him on the track for an event which marked the official opening of the Eastern Road school’s brand new music school, designed by world-renowned Eric Parry Architects.
> 
> Director of music at the college Sandy Chenery said: “I think everyone felt watching David Gilmour live in such a wonderful setting was a very special moment.
> ...



Well, that all sounds just a wee bit different from my old comprehensive.  Oh, poor Laurie, how she must have suffered in that school environment, lacking so much.


----------



## rekil (Nov 14, 2015)

Plucky outsiders bucking the odds.

 



Nick Cohen claimed he was going to have a go at LP's free speech delusion piece but will probably shelve it in favour of some liberal chestbeating following the attacks.


----------



## agricola (Nov 14, 2015)

copliker said:


> Plucky outsiders bucking the odds.
> 
> View attachment 79639
> 
> Nick Cohen claimed he was going to have a go at LP's free speech delusion piece but will probably shelve it in favour of some liberal chestbeating following the attacks.




I wonder who the one person who didn't get their place in the sun was?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We're all misogynists.



Except for SpineyNorman , who's a racist misogynist.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except for SpineyNorman , who's a racist misogynist.


Yes, even me and weepiper got branded as misogynists


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, even me and weepiper got branded as misogynists



It's a simple logic that equates dislike for Laura's shenanigans with hatred of all women, but what else can we expect from a bubblehead (i.e. educational bubble, in case she's reading and thinks I'm indulging in misogynist abuse!) like her?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a simple logic that equates dislike for Laura's shenanigans with hatred of all women, but what else can we expect from a bubblehead (i.e. educational bubble, in case she's reading and thinks I'm indulging in misogynist abuse!) like her?


heaven forbid her work is criticised for being bad. It must be that she's getting criticism for her gender.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> heaven forbid her work is criticised for being bad. It must be that she's getting criticism for her gender.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 14, 2015)

Regarding her latest content-free guff, it's amazing that she seems to think that activists being smeared and insulted by the opposition is somehow something new. Or is it just new when it offers byline fodder?

It's a little bit journalism.


----------



## steeplejack (Nov 15, 2015)

Is it really worth going on and on about Laurie?

Her writing's not very good. She has not much to say beyond reheated white-liberal middle class platitudes, and some co-opted identity politics narcissism, culled from twitter and half understood.

In that case she is not much more than most "opinion formers" before her- Polly T, Yasmin Alibhai, Alexander Chancellor, Rod Liddle, etc etc etc

These parasites only exist because we create the space for them to exist, by reading and commenting on their "work". And these people are genuine parasites- feeding off social and political energy and slackening it whilst adding, pointlessly, to the noise that accompanies it.

If we ignore them, they will go away. It is not surprise that a privately educated Oxbridge grad has opinions like hers, nor that the 0.5% of the population who have a) heard of her and b) can be bothered to engage with what she has to say think she is somehow an authentic "voice of youth protest".

she'll end her days as a Liberal Democrat Baroness in the House of Lords. We all know this. There's no point orbiting her very weak and distant sun like so much space junk.


----------



## Favelado (Nov 15, 2015)

Beautifully put.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2015)

steeplejack said:


> If we ignore them, they will go away.


this is simply untrue


----------



## steeplejack (Nov 15, 2015)

they will go away from *the media*. if only the middle class would go away, more generally, if ignored.


----------



## Favelado (Nov 15, 2015)

She will pen an article for the Guardian in 2020 titled "Why The Middle-Ground Is The Only Way Forward".


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2015)

steeplejack said:


> they will go away from *the media*. if only the middle class would go away, more generally, if ignored.


who do you think they are writing for? Not us. Might occaisonally be about us (cf Owen Jones) but the audience of the Staesman, the guardian all the panopoly of shit liberal leftish mags cater for the middle class liberal. You've only got to look at who and what advertises in them to see where the dmographic is


----------



## agricola (Nov 15, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> who do you think they are writing for? Not us. Might occaisonally be about us (cf Owen Jones) but the audience of the Staesman, the guardian all the panopoly of shit liberal leftish mags cater for the middle class liberal. You've only got to look at who and what advertises in them to see where the dmographic is



A little bit Golgafrincham Ark Ship B?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2015)

agricola said:


> A little bit Golgafrincham Ark Ship B?


until we all die from an infection from a dirty telephone (following a lack of reporting of the terrible state of telephones by the commentariat)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 17, 2015)




----------



## J Ed (Nov 17, 2015)

Burn it all down


----------



## crossthebreeze (Nov 17, 2015)

"Individualism", "personal brand" "gender fluid" etc is all bullshit but if some shops (ie the ones i can afford to shop in, not selfridges) start making "menswear"-type clothes to fit (pear-shaped, big-breasted) women, or at least stock more stuff for women who don't like wearing dresses or particularly feminine clothes, and if shop assistants are going to stop getting flustered because I've taken clothes from the menswear department into the women's changing room then that'll be an upside to this nonsense_._  Menswear is often better made, warmer, and more practical than womenswear, and can look good too.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 18, 2015)

Look who it is two minutes in


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Look who it is two minutes in




You must watch some very obscure videos to have come across that.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 19, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You must watch some very obscure videos to have come across that.



I saw it posted on FB, it was a very strange watch I agree which is why I posted it. I suppose that Mason was a student at the nearby Sheffield Uni at the time


----------



## J Ed (Nov 20, 2015)

Stay safe comrades

The Feminist Guide to Being a Foodie Without Being Culturally Appropriative

edit: I actually think some of the points in the article, like about food gentrification, make good sense but the general tone of it is grating imo


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 20, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Stay safe comrades
> 
> The Feminist Guide to Being a Foodie Without Being Culturally Appropriative
> 
> edit: I actually think some of the points in the article, like about food gentrification, make good sense but the general tone of it is grating imo


 
On the 'Most Popular This Month' list:

15 Comments Polyamorous People Are Tired of Getting

'What's Hot Right Now':

5 Things Being in a Femme-Butch Relationship Has Taught Me About Privilege


----------



## J Ed (Nov 20, 2015)

I like this one though


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 21, 2015)

Surprised this Laurie tweet hasn't been posted. Y'all slipping


----------



## cantsin (Nov 21, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


> Surprised this Laurie tweet hasn't been posted. Y'all slipping




plse tell us you invented that one ?


----------



## LDC (Nov 21, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


> Surprised this Laurie tweet hasn't been posted. Y'all slipping




OMFG, that's brilliant on a number of levels.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


>


----------



## andysays (Nov 21, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> OMFG, that's brilliant on a number of levels.



The responses are worth reading as well


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2015)

andysays said:


> The responses are worth reading as well



You may have to post them here as we're mostly blocked.


----------



## andysays (Nov 21, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> You may have to post them here as we're mostly blocked.



I'm not sure how to do that, but I'll have a go.

In the meantime, can't you simply log off your twitter account and read them that way? 

(I don't have a twitter account, and when I click on the link in gawkrodger's post, her tweet appears with all the responses under it. I possibly don't fully understand how it all works though...)


----------



## andysays (Nov 21, 2015)

Here's a selection


> Fair do's. She's hidden that "clever" core identity well, since reaching adulthood.





> Clearly a MENSA plant in deep cover.





> In a crowded field, definitely a contender for weirdest tweet of the year.





> I hope one day you gain enough self awareness to realise how awful your tweets make you sound.This one's a real peach





> CAN'T. EVEN. BREATHE. This is the funniest thing you've posted in ages!





> You clearly have no concept of just how fatuous and self-absorbed you appear to those outside your echo chamber.





> You clearly have no concept of just how fatuous and self-absorbed you appear to those outside your echo chamber. #*ItsAllAboutMe*


And perhaps my favourite


> ...and then you signed up for Twitter, and it all went horribly wrong.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2015)

andysays said:


> Here's a selection
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Pale King (Nov 21, 2015)

It nicely implies that she 'instantly grasps' everything else as well


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 21, 2015)

Is intellectual ableism even a thing?


----------



## andysays (Nov 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Is intellectual ableism even a thing?



If the self-declared "smartest girl from a smart school" says it's a thing, then it's a thing...


----------



## cesare (Nov 21, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


> Surprised this Laurie tweet hasn't been posted. Y'all slipping



She *has* to be taking the piss


----------



## 8den (Nov 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Is intellectual ableism even a thing?



I don't know but reading her tweets makes my "intellectual ablism" worse...


----------



## 8den (Nov 21, 2015)

cesare said:


> She *has* to be taking the piss




It'd be amazing if she rips off her mask and we discover she is in fact Alexei Sayles.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2015)

8den said:


> It'd be amazing if she rips off her mask and we discover she is in fact Alexei Sayles.


MIND.BLOWN.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 21, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I hate the word queer, what about all the people 'triggered' by the fact that when they were at school it was used as a term of homophobic abuse?





cynicaleconomy said:


> Not sure I like the use of the term queer in any context, tbh (well maybe the original meaning of the word as something odd and quirky). I know it's supposed to be a reclamation of a term of abuse with the intention of turning it into something positive, but it still just seems like sweary offensiveness to me. Maybe I'm just becoming an old fuddy duddy.


Isn't this a very old debate? I thought we reclaimed 'queer' long ago. Or is it just 'genderqueer' that worries people.




DaveCinzano said:


> 'What's Hot Right Now':
> 
> 5 Things Being in a Femme-Butch Relationship Has Taught Me About Privilege


 That all very old debate too, new langauge same old issues. Recall having those very discussions 30 years ago.
Hot right now? again...


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 21, 2015)

.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 21, 2015)

Who are "we"?

Edited because clusterfuck.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> She claims this generation is braver and less naive than any other? Tell that to those who went into any number of wars when they were teenagers.



There seems to be a generation name for anyone born after the war 'Baby boomers' onwards. 
But anyone born before is just 'old'. if you are 65-110 its all the same.


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 21, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> There seems to be a generation name for anyone born after the war 'Baby boomers' onwards.
> But anyone born before is just 'old'. if you are 65-110 its all the same.


There are generational names for those born before baby boomers:

Generation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 21, 2015)

CNT36 said:


> Who are "we"?


We as in me and people I know. I am a queer, lezza, dyke, gay, friend of Dorothy.   I quite like the term, as it is inclusive rather than exclusive.  I'm not that keen on non queer people using the term or on Queer as a term of abuse obviously.

Though I'm old enough to remember it being an acrimonious debate in the London L&G Centre (when it was only L&G and T and B was still debated too) and one man took to standing outside with a placard  'I AM NOT QUEER' as he was from the generation of men who fought to be called 'gay' but he was alone voice. I thought it was an old debate. Is it still debated?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 21, 2015)

> The Lost Generation, also known as the _Generation of 1914_ in Europe,[22] is a term originating with Gertrude Stein to describe those who fought in World War I. The members of the lost generation were typically born between 1883 and 1900.
> The Greatest Generation, also known as the _G.I. Generation_, is the generation that includes the veterans who fought in World War II. They were born from around 1900 through 1924, coming of age during the Great Depression. Journalist Tom Brokaw dubbed this the _Greatest Generation_ in a book of the same name.[23]
> The Silent Generation, also known as the _Lucky Few_, were born from approximately 1925 until 1942.[24] It includes some who fought in World War II, most of those who fought the Korean War and many during the Vietnam War.


 I've heard of the first one in literary terms but I thought it applied to the ones who died not the ones still alive now. 

I don't hear people using these terms about themselves or their contemporaries, and I see a lot of people who are over 75.  Don't hear these terms used in our media. 'Bed-blocker' 'pensioners' perhaps 'silver surfers'. Usually just 'elderly' or 'old'.


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 21, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I've heard of the first one in literary terms but I thought it applied to the ones who died not the ones still alive now.
> 
> I don't hear people using these terms about themselves or their contemporaries, and I see a lot of people who are over 75.  Don't hear these terms used in our media. 'Bed-blocker' 'pensioners' perhaps 'silver surfers'. Usually just 'elderly' or 'old'.


I agree that they are usually just dismissively labelled as "old"


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm from the don revie generation.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 21, 2015)

i see penny dreadful's sister is following in her footsteps working with that god-awful novara media bunch.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 22, 2015)

sunnysidedown said:


> i see penny dreadful's sister is following in her footsteps working with that god-awful novara media bunch.



i quite like aaron bastanni's 'full automated luxury communism' schtick....


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2015)

sunnysidedown said:


> i see penny dreadful's sister is following in her footsteps working with that god-awful novara media bunch.



Be interested to hear you thoughts on Novara... I do/did like Novara, but the obvious ego and bluster has started to get quite grating, and topics increasingly often seem a bit shit. I also think that they think they're much cleverer than they actually are. Being well read isn't the same as being clever IMO.

The fully automated luxury communist stuff is interesting, but fucking annoying too. It's pretty easy for a load of academics and people who do totally socially useless jobs going on about automating all work. Maybe they should do a year in care work and then have a re-think.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 22, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Be interested to hear you thoughts on Novara... I do/did like Novara, but the obvious ego and bluster has started to get quite grating, and topics increasingly often seem a bit shit. I also think that they think they're much cleverer than they actually are. Being well read isn't the same as being clever IMO.
> 
> The fully automated luxury communist stuff is interesting, but fucking annoying too. It's pretty easy for a load of academics and people who do totally socially useless jobs going on about automating all work. Maybe they should do a year in care work and then have a re-think.



a lot of us do socially useless stuff nowadays, but amongst the likes of Bastanni /the Novara lot, I doubt you'd find too many that undervalue the work of careworkers/health workers/ a load of other non automatable professions etc .


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 24, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I also think that they think they're much cleverer than they actually are. Being well read isn't the same as being clever IMO.



My thoughts exactly, they just come across like a bunch of pompous twats to me. Bastani the lesser pompous twat.

As for penniless, he makes me want to chuck my radio out the window.


----------



## rekil (Nov 26, 2015)

I note from Bloodworth's bio on new venture 'Little Atoms' site that 





> *He is currently writing a book for Atlantic about living on the breadline in Tory Britain.*


It's going to be an exercise in poorly disguised plagiarism isn't it.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 26, 2015)

I thought Little Atoms was PDs youth cadre?


----------



## J Ed (Nov 26, 2015)

Living on the breadline? I assume that it isn't going to be about him then, I'm sure the Henry Jackson Society and other neocon think tanks don't pay NMW.


----------



## rekil (Nov 26, 2015)

All the shitehawks want a piece of the PD brand.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 6, 2015)

Bloodworth goes after alternative media: Alternative media's useful idiots | Little Atoms

I think he went after Fair/Alternet because one of their journalists exposed Bloodworth's lie about Cuban forces in Syra: Fox, Daily Beast Stories on Cubans in Syria Lack One Thing: Evidence of Cubans in Syria

Back in 2013, Left Foot Forward published a comment piece that was neo-Nazi propaganda: Black supremacist music: a reaction to historical oppression, or something more sinister?


----------



## Favelado (Dec 6, 2015)

sunnysidedown said:


> i see penny dreadful's sister is following in her footsteps working with that god-awful novara media bunch.



It's amazing that that despite their extreme hardships and all of the world being against them, they're both ending up with cushy careers. It's almost as if class is something to do with all of this.

The jobless are no shirking scroungers – you try living on £65.45 a week

Poverty was such a shock to middle class types.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 9, 2015)

Apparently Podemos have appointed Owen Jones as an independent expert who they can consult for advice...


----------



## JimW (Dec 9, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Apparently Podemos have appointed Owen Jones as an independent expert who they can consult for advice...


"Never wear check with stripes" would be about the limit of his useful advice you'd think.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 9, 2015)

"What Podemos really need to do is get into Oxford, get a job at the Graunid then just chill and coast for a bit"


----------



## J Ed (Dec 17, 2015)

6 Magical Lessons We Can Learn From Harry Potter in Our Work for Social Justice


----------



## 8den (Dec 17, 2015)

J Ed said:


> 6 Magical Lessons We Can Learn From Harry Potter in Our Work for Social Justice



He's an author, educator AND movement builder...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 17, 2015)

8den said:


> ...movement builder...


Is that like a cowboy who sells 'leftover' Tarmac from off the back of their flat bed?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2015)

And Pm Press published author (sort of US based AK Press, set up by ex AKUK people in fact) who effectively run the Against the Grain show that i know J Ed loves. 

So whose laughing now eh?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 17, 2015)

The Hunger Games is better


----------



## sihhi (Dec 17, 2015)

Paul Mason is either just a buzzword bingo merchant or a chump, isn't he?

"A Gramscian party in a non-Gramscian world." An interview with Paul Mason

He is asked:-

_*AS:* One of Syriza’s main selling points was the idea of new politics, of doing politics differently, “We’re not going to be like the establishment parties.” Was there anything you found while filming Syriza which differentiated them from other parties and politicians you have previously covered?_
*
PM:* There were massive differences. [... complete failure to list any differences] 
they do feel some ministers did get too close. The other thing is the question of prioritisation. As Euclid Tsakalotos actually says to me in an interview that will come out later, probably over the weekend, ‘Yeah, we didn’t do enough on the oligarchy and corruption.’ Even if they didn’t get captured by the oligarchy and corruption, they now admit that they didn’t do enough on that. Yet the ideal time to fight oligarchy and corruption is when the masses are with you, and everybody’s overwhelmed.


He is constantly talking as if Syriza is not in power in anymore not administering privatisations ND never dreamed of actually pushing through.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 22, 2015)

Aaron Bastani dressed as an 80's snooker player +  dancing like your uncle as he  'drops' ' Todd Terje's 'De Lorean' at the NR Xmas party  - I like him more as we go along tbf


----------



## LDC (Dec 22, 2015)

...shortly to be followed by Paul Mason doing the Can Can.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 29, 2015)

just seen Penny Red on the Beeb Reggie Yates / MRA documentary, and in the context of Milo Y /Nero,Dapper Laughs, Roosh V +  various other snivelling, deranged,mistanthropic excuses for humanity dribbling on, she was spot on - hearing about the abuse that she has to put up with from these scumbag's spineless, waste of space acolytes week in week out, makes me wonder about how much some of us ( me included, 100% ) direct our cynicism at her on here.


----------



## binka (Dec 30, 2015)

cantsin said:


> just seen Penny Red on the Beeb Reggie Yates / MRA documentary, and in the context of Milo Y /Nero,Dapper Laughs, Roosh V +  various other snivelling, deranged,mistanthropic excuses for humanity dribbling on, she was spot on - hearing about the abuse that she has to put up with from these scumbag's spineless, waste of space acolytes week in week out, makes me wonder about how much some of us ( me included, 100% ) direct our cynicism at her on here.


i saw the documentary and was meant to do a topic on it but never got round to it. some real horrible people on there and laurie penny wasn't one of them. that 18 year old lad going to speakers corner has to be seen to be believed!


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2016)

Answers on a postcard....


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 2, 2016)

Get some cans of alphabet spaghetti to go with it.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2016)

Do "queers" have different dietary requirements then?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Do "queers" have different dietary requirements then?


I reckon our Laurie needs to check her white-bean privilege.


----------



## rekil (Jan 2, 2016)

*R*
*E*
*V*
*O*
*L*
*U*
*T*
*I*
*O*
*N*

(hth)


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2016)

Sleb privacy issues now...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 3, 2016)

Am I the only person that thinks the running commentary on the tweets of Laurie Penny is tedious?


----------



## 8den (Jan 3, 2016)

x


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Am I the only person that thinks the running commentary on the tweets of Laurie Penny is tedious?


Apparently not.


----------



## andysays (Jan 3, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Am I the only person that thinks the running commentary on the tweets of Laurie Penny is tedious?






			
				Oscar Wilde never said:
			
		

> The only thing worse than the tweets of Laurie Penny is the running commentary on the tweets of Laurie Penny


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 3, 2016)

Although, one would think that as a journalist Laurie would already know the answer to that question.


----------



## rekil (Jan 3, 2016)

RTd proudly by Nick. No wonder he keeps leaving las leftas again and again.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 3, 2016)

copliker said:


> RTd proudly by Nick. No wonder he keeps leaving las leftas again and again.




It's like how Liam Neeson and his family keep getting taken


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2016)

'I don't know who you are, I do know what I want. If its principles you want I can tell you that I have none...'


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2016)

As I appear to be so fascinated by la Penny's quotidian output...perhaps I should start a dedicated thread? What could go wrong?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> It's like how Liam Neeson and his family keep getting taken


tbf to Liam thats only happened thrice whereas cohen and T. Young have enough 'in-outs' between them for a hokey cokey


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Do "queers" have different dietary requirements then?



They only eat Les beans.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They only eat Les beans.


Not funny.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> As I appear to be so fascinated by la Penny's quotidian output...perhaps I should start a dedicated thread? What could go wrong?


I think we all know what happened the last time...


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 3, 2016)

copliker said:


> RTd proudly by Nick. No wonder he keeps leaving las leftas again and again.




Ron Jeremy has been in and out less than Cohen.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> As I appear to be so fascinated by la Penny's quotidian output...perhaps I should start a dedicated thread? What could go wrong?


Why bother? She's been exposed as the psuedo-radical charlatan she is enough here. Why go on and on about her? She really isn't that important.

There are plenty of targets in the commentariat, either writing drivel or just being weathercocks. Novara Media for one probably deserves a bit of a rougher ride than it gets here. Aaron Bastani now has an organisation called Silke Digital I note: Silke Digital


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Why bother? She's been exposed as the psuedo-radical charlatan she is enough here. Why go on and on about her? She really isn't that important.
> 
> There are plenty of targets in the commentariat, either writing drivel or just being weathercocks. Novara Media for one probably deserves a bit of a rougher ride than it gets here. Aaron Bastani now has an organisation called Silke Digital I note: Silke Digital


Sorry, probably should have added a  type thingy.


----------



## rekil (Jan 3, 2016)

"passionate about content creation" 

Barry Mainwaring needs to get on linkedin.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 3, 2016)

These guys seem interesting:

EvolvePolitics | Truly Independent News & Media For The Awakened Generation | EvolvePolitics.com


----------



## rekil (Jan 3, 2016)

"overseen digital strategy for several breakthrough campaigns, the most prominent being the ‘3 Cosas Campaign’ where we deployed a set of digital assets to raise over £7,000 for outsourced cleaners to take industrial action"

Deploying sets of digital assets is a little bit communism.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 3, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Novara Media for one probably deserves a bit of a rougher ride than it gets here. Aaron Bastani now has an organisation called Silke Digital I note: Silke Digital



So, Novara's revolution will not be televised, but 'digitally executed'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Why bother? She's been exposed as the psuedo-radical charlatan she is enough here. Why go on and on about her? She really isn't that important.
> 
> There are plenty of targets in the commentariat, either writing drivel or just being weathercocks. Novara Media for one probably deserves a bit of a rougher ride than it gets here. Aaron Bastani now has an organisation called Silke Digital I note: Silke Digital


Because we developed our own trad enemies and it's up to fucking us if we want to keep picking at it.  And because she came on here and treated us like cunts. Do you go to football and tell people to stop chanting against people they hate? Do you really imagine we think we're doing anything else here other than that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2016)

copliker said:


> "overseen digital strategy for several breakthrough campaigns, the most prominent being the ‘3 Cosas Campaign’ where we deployed a set of digital assets to raise over £7,000 for outsourced cleaners to take industrial action"
> 
> Deploying sets of digital assets is a little bit communism.


This means putting out appeals on the internet for money/putting self forward for paid interviews.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Why bother? She's been exposed as the psuedo-radical charlatan she is enough here. Why go on and on about her? She really isn't that important.
> 
> There are plenty of targets in the commentariat, either writing drivel or just being weathercocks. Novara Media for one probably deserves a bit of a rougher ride than it gets here. Aaron Bastani now has an organisation called Silke Digital I note: Silke Digital


Crack the fuck on with that then.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Do you go to football and tell people to stop chanting against people they hate? Do you really imagine we think we're doing anything else here other than that?



I thought it was the revolution.


----------



## rekil (Jan 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So, Novara's revolution will not be televised, but 'digitally executed'.


Digitally _sex_ecuted even.

"we've interviewed some of the biggest names in politics and theory, from Natalie Bennett and Jeremy Corbyn to Paul Mason, Owen Jones and Melissa Gira Grant."

PDs linkedin would feature a list of so-called lefties that our cybermilitants have pwned on the twitter machine.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 3, 2016)

copliker said:


> we deployed a set of digital assets



We're not interested unless they're laser-guided, heat-seeking, ground-to-air digital assets


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jan 4, 2016)

sihhi said:


> Paul Mason is either just a buzzword bingo merchant or a chump, isn't he?
> 
> "A Gramscian party in a non-Gramscian world." An interview with Paul Mason
> 
> ...



The sheer extent that people will go to to justify Gramsci's Stalinism (or first world social democracy) is mind boggling. even amongst so-called anti-stalinist currents who arrogantly speak in the name of the working-class.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Sleb privacy issues now...


She clearly has trouble understanding the basics of photographic rights.


----------



## rekil (Jan 4, 2016)

Remember when LP used a guardian column to declare that this creep is a hero actually and her mate did his portrait? Good times.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2016)

copliker said:


> Remember when LP used a guardian column to declare that this creep is a hero actually and her mate did his portrait? Good times.
> 
> View attachment 81602


But,but...the internet.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 4, 2016)

copliker said:


> Remember when LP used a guardian column to declare that this creep is a hero actually and her mate did his portrait? Good times.
> 
> View attachment 81602









'Great days, they were. Great days...'


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 5, 2016)

copliker said:


> Remember when LP used a guardian column to declare that this creep is a hero actually and her mate did his portrait? Good times.
> 
> View attachment 81602


wasn't that one of things that prompted us to look more closely at her writings? Good times indeed.


----------



## killer b (Jan 5, 2016)

Hardly, that was only 2014.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 5, 2016)

nazi yoghurt


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> nazi yoghurt


As opposed to anarchist yogurt, which is Makhno-biotic


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> As opposed to anarchist yogurt, which is Makhno-biotic



You're talking out of your Arshinov, comrade!


----------



## smokedout (Jan 6, 2016)

"The left would be a bleaker place without thinkers from privileged backgrounds."

You can be born into privilege and still want to change the world | George Monbiot

Gaw'd bless ya Mr George


----------



## rekil (Jan 6, 2016)

Just mad cos his PD membership application got rejected again.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 6, 2016)

is he including himself in that list of priv'd leftists of old? engels, kropotkin, monbiotic


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

It already is pretty bleak tbh.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

been seriously annoyed by some of the coverage of the bundy ranch by the commentariat left on various sites in the last few days. mocking them because they're on welfare, really? and practically screaming at the cops to go in all guns blazing. ffs, a massive coup handed to the far right.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 6, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> been seriously annoyed by some of the coverage of the bundy ranch by the commentariat left on various sites in the last few days. mocking them because they're on welfare, really? and practically screaming at the cops to go in all guns blazing. ffs, a massive coup handed to the far right.



Because going in guns blazing worked superbly at Waco, as I recall. That and if it was a bunch of lefties they approve of doing this then they'd probably be shouting for the evil empire to leave them alone and, if there was another Waco, be creaming their jeans over all the bylines and appearance fees for spouting off about how terrible it was.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

well exactly, how would they react if it was a bunch of armed white leftists occupying a University?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> Because going in guns blazing worked superbly at Waco, as I recall. That and if it was a bunch of lefties they approve of doing this then they'd probably be shouting for the evil empire to leave them alone and, if there was another Waco, be creaming their jeans over all the bylines and appearance fees for spouting off about how terrible it was.


if there is another waco i suspect a lot of these will go very quiet.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 6, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> been seriously annoyed by some of the coverage of the bundy ranch by the commentariat left on various sites in the last few days. mocking them because they're on welfare, really? and practically screaming at the cops to go in all guns blazing. ffs, a massive coup handed to the far right.



The comments on the Monbiot piece make me want to shoot people.


----------



## NoXion (Jan 6, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> been seriously annoyed by some of the coverage of the bundy ranch by the commentariat left on various sites in the last few days. mocking them because they're on welfare, really? and practically screaming at the cops to go in all guns blazing. ffs, a massive coup handed to the far right.



That ties in with what I've seen of US liberals rubbing their hands with unseemly glee at the prospect of militant right-wing gun nuts being completely blown away by the US armed forces' tanks, drones and artillery. Quite apart from betraying an ignorance of how insurgencies actually operate, there's something I find personally repulsive about it even though I have no love for the militias.

If such a naked lust for the mortal exercise of state power against fellow citizens is so easily engendered, I have to wonder how far away from another civil war the US is.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

NoXion said:


> That ties in with what I've seen of US liberals rubbing their hands with unseemly glee at the prospect of militant right-wing gun nuts being completely blown away by the US armed forces' tanks, drones and artillery. Quite apart from betraying an ignorance of how insurgencies actually operate, there's something I find personally repulsive about it even though I have no love for the militias.
> 
> If such a naked lust for the mortal exercise of state power against fellow citizens is so easily engendered, I have to wonder how far away from another civil war the US is.



Easy to wish death and violence from the safety and comfort of your home somewhere on the east coast (or thousands of miles away in the UK) tbh


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

It's the whole 'they're committing treason / terrorism by occupy a building, take them out'. What would be achieved by packing Bundy and his bunch of southern good old boys to guantanamo? It's almost like they think state violence is OK as long as it's applied equally. Occupying a building isn't treason ffs, what about all the graduates of millbank a couple years ago? Most of them where white and a lot were a lot more privileged than some farmers up in some backwoods.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 6, 2016)

Another Waco with privileged white liberals baying for blood would be the absolute worst thing that could happen to the US in the current political climate, and the shrill coverage of these men as terrorists is in danger of creating a self fulfilling prophecy


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 6, 2016)

copliker said:


> Just mad cos his PD membership application got rejected again.



Look, the corner shop was out of loo roll, okay?


----------



## newbie (Jan 19, 2016)

oh joy, three urban favourites in one easy to digest story.

Katie Hopkins sued by Jack Monroe over vandalism accusation


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 20, 2016)

newbie said:


> oh joy, three urban favourites in one easy to digest story.
> 
> Katie Hopkins sued by Jack Monroe over vandalism accusation


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2016)

newbie said:


> oh joy, three urban favourites in one easy to digest story.
> 
> Katie Hopkins sued by Jack Monroe over vandalism accusation



are @MsJackMonroe and @MxJackMonroe the same person?


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2016)

dp


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> are @MsJackMonroe and @MxJackMonroe the same person?



Hopkins certainly lacks the intellect to distinguish one member of the commentariat from another. Interesting to see media types feuding among themselves when they're often so quick to circle the wagons against criticism of the journalistic 'profession.'


----------



## killer b (Jan 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> are @MsJackMonroe and @MxJackMonroe the same person?


Yes.


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> Hopkins certainly lacks the intellect to distinguish one member of the commentariat from another. Interesting to see media types feuding among themselves when they're often so quick to circle the wagons against criticism of the journalistic 'profession.'



But handy in this comes to court.  All her tweets are directed at MsJackMonroe, an acount with an avatar of an egg that has tweeted once,  all the cease and apologise ones back at her are from MxJackMonroe complete with a photo avatar of Jack Monroe.   "Your honour, there has clearly been some sort of mix up, I wasn't defaming her, I was defaming the other one...."


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yes.


How do you know?


----------



## killer b (Jan 20, 2016)

Because I read about it last year, Almost certainly on this wretched thread. Mx is a gender neutral title, which Monroe has donned after coming out as non-binary or suchlike.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> How do you know?


From the tweets?


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> Because I read about it last year, Almost certainly on this wretched thread. Mx is a gender neutral title, which Monroe has donned after coming out as non-binary or suchlike.


so the Ms addressing is actually part of the wind up


----------



## killer b (Jan 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> so the Ms addressing is actually part of the wind up


I don't think so - I think the screenshots are contemporaneous, and the other tweets shown (as they still exist) show Monroe's current twitter name.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 20, 2016)

Just parking this here in expectation of fulsome praise from an esteemed alumnx

Brighton College alters uniform code to accommodate transgender pupils


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 2, 2016)

And that's it for Guido at the Sun on Sunday:

Guido Fawkes’ Sun on Sunday column comes to an end


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 2, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> And that's it for Guido at the Sun on Sunday:
> 
> Guido Fawkes’ Sun on Sunday column comes to an end





> ...Staines’s number two, Harry Cole...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 2, 2016)

One for the Golden Agers 

Interview: David Babbs, founder, 38 Degrees

(Regwalled)


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 2, 2016)

I made the mistake of reading L Penny's take on the US Democratic primaries.

Though Hillary Clinton has flaws, I’ll enjoy seeing her mash Donald Trump into a smear of hair tonic




			
				L. Penny giving her inner liberal free reign said:
			
		

> Luckily for me, I don’t have to decide whom to vote for, because I’m British. So Bernie _v_ Hillary remains a pure thought exercise and, in that spirit, I choose: both. Why not?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 2, 2016)

It's probably just as well that American parts of the Anglophone "commentariat" don't get much traction here. There is a whole genre of "I like to think I'm a radical, but..." apologetics for Clinton that would probably cause this place to collectively shit its pants with rage.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 2, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> One for the Golden Agers
> 
> Interview: David Babbs, founder, 38 Degrees
> 
> (Regwalled)


You probably mean ringwalled, but what is the point of posting links to any site that has a paywall. Why not do a transcription of the article with an included commentary.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 2, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I made the mistake of reading L Penny's take on the US Democratic primaries.
> 
> Though Hillary Clinton has flaws, I’ll enjoy seeing her mash Donald Trump into a smear of hair tonic



Rather begs the question of why, if it makes no odds, write anything about it?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 2, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> You probably mean ringwalled



No, no I didn't.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 2, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It's probably just as well that American parts of the Anglophone "commentariat" don't get much traction here. There is a whole genre of "I like to think I'm a radical, but..." apologetics for Clinton that would probably cause this place to collectively shit its pants with rage.



An All-Caps Explosion of Feelings Regarding the Liberal Backlash Against Hillary Clinton


----------



## NoXion (Feb 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> An All-Caps Explosion of Feelings Regarding the Liberal Backlash Against Hillary Clinton



A sure-fire way of making sure that an article doesn't get read. By me at least. I can understand the urge to rant even if I don't agree with it in this instance, but you should try not to let that get in the way of basic readability if you're intending it for public consumption.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 4, 2016)

The Thatcher Problem

_In the current US Democratic primaries, the issue of whether Hillary Clinton is really a feminist has been ferociously debated, and the conclusion appears to be that she is not. In fact, despite Clinton’s strong record of supporting abortion rights and equal pay, the verdict of many American pundits is that Bernie Sanders would be the true feminist candidate (as if the most radical possible outcome would be another white man in charge). This is, of course, another double-bind for women: it is beyond facile to pretend that Clinton would be more popular for being more feminist, when any woman quoting Dworkin on the stump would be guaranteed an electorally toxic “feminazi” tag.

Women do not deserve to exercise power only on the condition that we would do it “better” than men and promote the feminist cause. Women have the right to political office exactly as men do, and that means that we can do it well or badly, feministly or unfeministly – just as men have been doing for millenia. Women are entitled to be wrong and mediocre sometimes. Being wrong and mediocre is part of the human condition, and women are allegedly human. At the despatch box or in the boardroom, we should have our fair share because it’s simply a matter of justice. Until we have our fair share, we have no idea how the normalising of female power might change the world; but we don’t have to change the world to merit our half of it._

Can anyone decipher this from the New Statesman?

First paragraph says it is crucial to recognise Clinton *is* a feminist. Paragraph following says it neither interests nor concerns me about the type of women - feminist *or *non-feminist - at the top, so long as women have half the positions of political power.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

sihhi said:


> The Thatcher Problem
> 
> _In the current US Democratic primaries, the issue of whether Hillary Clinton is really a feminist has been ferociously debated, and the conclusion appears to be that she is not. In fact, despite Clinton’s strong record of supporting abortion rights and equal pay, the verdict of many American pundits is that Bernie Sanders would be the true feminist candidate (as if the most radical possible outcome would be another white man in charge). This is, of course, another double-bind for women: it is beyond facile to pretend that Clinton would be more popular for being more feminist, when any woman quoting Dworkin on the stump would be guaranteed an electorally toxic “feminazi” tag.
> 
> ...



Looks like you've deciphered it well enough by yourself.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 4, 2016)

Ditum doesn't have the sophistication of the best right-wing liberal feminist apologists for Clinton, the likes of Rebecca Traister, but her views would fit right in with the dross churned out by more run of the mill Clinton apologists of the Amanda Marcotte type. That particular piece is somewhat confused, but two underlying points can be extracted from it: (1) Clinton is a feminist because she cares about two feminist issues Ditum prioritises. Her record on other feminist issues, like helping to impoverish what Clinton memorably called "welfare queens" or bombing brown women are not worth taking into account. (2) Even if she isn't a feminist, she's still a woman and as with Thatcher that's good enough for Ditum. It isn't good enough for the left, than the left itself isn't good enough for Ditum. Although why Ditum concerns herself with a left she has little obvious political connection to in the first place remains a mystery.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 4, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Although why Ditum concerns herself with a left she has little obvious political connection to in the first place remains a mystery.



In fairness, I'm not entirely sure the New Statesman has much of a connection wit the left, either. Especially when they're still refusing to recognise the NUJ.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 5, 2016)

Should Millennials Get Over Bernie Sanders? - The New Yorker
90% of what goes on at The New Yorker can be explained by Vulgar Marxism


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 5, 2016)

The two links above are to a typically stupid New Yorker article by a smug liberal supporter of Hillary Clinton and to a complete evisceration of that first article. The second piece concludes:




			
				Corey Robin said:
			
		

> But that’s all incidental. What really strikes the reader is just how removed Schwartz is from the experiences of her generation, how utterly clueless she is about the economic hardships so many young men and women face today.
> 
> It’s true that Schwartz graduated from the tony Brearley School in Manhattan (annual tuition: $43,000) in 2005 and Yale (annual tuition, fees, and costs: $65,000) in 2009, whereupon, after a few detours, she landed a spot at _The New Yorker_, from which she reports on Paris (cost: priceless).
> 
> ...


----------



## sihhi (Feb 6, 2016)

I am very ill so I have gone through some old stuff to take my mind off my chest, so pointless game:- guess the commenter

_A) To sit in Pizza Express eating a pizza is to partake in a mystic communion with the cosmopolitanisation of the British bourgeois in a way that no other chain-restaurant experience quite achieves.

B) I hope no U-turn on EMA. Was given to 50% of 6th-formers. Are half of British parents unable/unwilling to provide? Bred dependency culture.

C) _[On refugees]
_They live in twilight ghettos in Hackney, Brent, Lewisham and Hounslow. They lodge with friends. They are exploited. I hate the idea of a two-tier citizenship but that is the price these people must pay for taking refuge in London._


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 6, 2016)

A = Will Self?

B = Katie Hopkins?

C = Laurie Penny?


----------



## weepiper (Feb 6, 2016)

A) Nick Lezard?


----------



## The Boy (Feb 7, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> A = Will Self?
> 
> B = Katie Hopkins?
> 
> C = Laurie Penny?



Agree with A and C.  B contains too much humanity for Hopkins though.   Deffo a woman though - Julie Birchill maybe?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

sihhi said:


> I am very ill so I have gone through some old stuff to take my mind off my chest, so pointless game:- guess the commenter
> 
> _A) To sit in Pizza Express eating a pizza is to partake in a mystic communion with the cosmopolitanisation of the British bourgeois in a way that no other chain-restaurant experience quite achieves._



Blates Will Self.



> _B) I hope no U-turn on EMA. Was given to 50% of 6th-formers. Are half of British parents unable/unwilling to provide? Bred dependency culture._



Sounds like either Janet Daley or Melanie Philips.
_



			C)
		
Click to expand...

_


> On refugees
> _They live in twilight ghettos in Hackney, Brent, Lewisham and Hounslow. They lodge with friends. They are exploited. I hate the idea of a two-tier citizenship but that is the price these people must pay for taking refuge in London._



Peter Hitchens.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 9, 2016)

A is Will Self. B is The Times's working-class heritage pro-Labour columinst Janice Turner. C is pro-migration Simon Jenkins.

How about this:-

*This much is clear: with her brave agenda, Short has emerged as one of the meatiest political thinkers of the present government. 
Popular with the electorate, with the party and with both Blair and Brown, her future in the Cabinet seems assured. Unimaginable only a few years ago, promotion to one of the top jobs now seems a distinct possibility (though it is hard to imagine her leaving her beloved Department for International Development). Indeed, it looks as if Clare Short will go down in history as the woman who spearheaded an agenda that liberated millions from poverty. The scope and nobility of her aspirations are remarkable in an era when politicians are reduced to mere managers. I will stick my neck out and predict that Clare Short will come to be remembered as that rare thing in British politics: a heroine.*


----------



## NoXion (Feb 9, 2016)

Polly Toynbee?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 9, 2016)

Beyoncé Slays Black People



> One evening in September 2015, I sat down to watch the season premier of Doctor Who. What I saw disturbed me. Beginning with the opening scene, Black men were repeatedly killed within moments of appearing on screen. It was the old _Black guy dies first_ trope. I was mad, pausing the show to mutter to myself about racism and decide if I’d continue watching.
> 
> That same night, a friend’s brother was murdered in Chicago. He didn’t even make it to 30. I called my friend the day I got the news. I could hear the devastation in his voice, each labored breath almost choking the words out of him as we talked. “Chicago spares no one,” he lamented.
> 
> ...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 13, 2016)

I can't see any mention of this on the thread so far. There's a bloke called Daniel Voshart - I don't know anything about him other than that he doesn't like vice very much.

Anyway, since Vice have been a target on this thread I thought I'd mention that he's done some very interesting digging around the organisation (more than just finding out murdoch has his fingers in it) and it looks even dodgier than I at least ever thought.

Here's one of his bigger pieces with links to more of his stuff in the text:

Vice Media Kit— WARNING for Advertisers — Thoughts on Media

more of his stuff here

not vice


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 13, 2016)

This is news to me:



> VOICELESS: _Vice_ began as _Voice of Montreal_ (1994) and quickly turned into a “welfare scam”. _Vice_ used money that was meant to provide work to Haitian-Canadian immigrants to publish reviews of hate literature.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 12, 2016)

Stand by your stations:



A WORLD WAITS IN SILENCE


----------



## LDC (Mar 13, 2016)

This week's Novara had the double act of Bastani and Butler joined by the Marina Prentoulis AND Lindsey German. Far too much lefty excitement for a Friday afternoon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Stand by your stations:
> 
> 
> 
> A WORLD WAITS IN SILENCE




Some excellent comments on her "open letter".


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2016)

This is what she's talking about when she says she's been a victim of 'anti-semitic bullying' on the tube. She apparently claimed falsely to be an actual jew, not just a half a one.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> ...a half a one.



Fucking listen to yourself.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2016)

oh dear,  have i somehow offended you? If so do explain how. I was the only jewish kid at my school, I know what anti-semitic bullying is and I find LP characterising her experience in that way pretty offensive to be honest.


----------



## Buckaroo (Mar 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> oh dear,  have i somehow offended you? If so do explain how. I was the only jewish kid at my school, I know what anti-semitic bullying is and I find LP characterising her experience in that way pretty offensive to be honest.



Why do you find it offensive? Call her a liar if that's what you mean but why is her experience of anti-semitic abuse less worthy than yours?


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2016)

I don't want to play that game, never mind. It may just be personal due to my experiences that I felt that way when I read her calling a Jewish joke antisemitic bullying. If that's the worst she's experienced then maybe it was upsetting for her, even though they apologised at the time and seemed like nice kids etc. I got Yids out scrawled on my stuff, called kike Jesus killer and all that for years, so it's all relative I suppose. Whatever.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 14, 2016)

Anti-Semitism isn't good whoever is on the receiving end, and it does sound like being stuck in a lift for a few minutes with a person spouting such vileness would have been pretty horrible.

There's no hierarchy to such abuse, it's all pretty nasty.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2016)

err ok, sorry if I offended anyone with my offendedness, or my antisemitism. All unpleasantness is unpleasant, you're right, would you ban Jewish jokes though? Or just ban telling them to Jews? It gets a bit confusing there, cos what if it's Jewish people telling them presumably that's ok?


----------



## J Ed (Mar 15, 2016)

You don't have to be a particular ethnicity to be a victim of prejudice of it, think about all the Sikhs in the US who have been shot on the basis of Islamophobia.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2016)

I should probably bugger off now, cos this is (unsurprisingly) a bit of a touchy subject for me, and not really up for being told how to feel about it. Ban Jewish jokes if you like long as Jews can still tell them to each other.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Mar 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> err ok, sorry if I offended anyone with my offendedness, or my antisemitism. All unpleasantness is unpleasant, you're right, would you ban Jewish jokes though? Or just ban telling them to Jews? It gets a bit confusing there, cos what if it's Jewish people telling them presumably that's ok?


Bimble, no wonder this is a touchy subject for you, what happened to you at school must have been horrendous for you, and is obviously a worse experience than some fairly unthreatening idiots in a lift.

She mentioned "Jew jokes" not "Jewish jokes" though - my understanding - which admittedly might be wrong -  is that Jew jokes are blatant and crude antisemitic jokes told by racists, while "Jewish jokes", while sometimes close to the bone and dealing in stereotypes, would be the kind of humour which Jewish people tell (and should keep on telling to each other or to anyone they choose) - the difference would be both whose telling the joke and what their intent was, and of course there's a middle ground between the two.  But  even if racist/antisemitic  jokes directed at someone come out of the mouths of nice young students who aren't physically threatening and are part of a group where some apologise, it would obviously be an unsettling experience.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2016)

I know, I'm sure it was unpleasant. I didn't much like her calling that antisemitic bullying, in her article with no explanation of what she meant, but do get that may just be me. Never heard of a Jew joke but context is everything with this stuff, of course.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 18, 2016)

What do we think of this one then? Laurie discovers that the angst of the millenials (dread phrase) is a class thing not a generational thing.

What we talk about when we talk about millennials

I thought it was good for what it was, but of course the generational analysis of politics and society is an American thing, not something you see much on this side of the Atlantic (like unironic use of 'millenial'), and her class analysis is pretty much ABC stuff.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

And it turns out that Laurie is speaking in Halle tonight.

Kommende Veranstaltungen | Laurie Penny | Unspeakable Things in Halle | Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung Sachsen-Anhalt

Should I go along and ask her difficult questions? If so, what should I ask her?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Well she's not doing too badly.

Making a point against the finger pointers who say you can't complain about sexism in the west if Muslim women are oppressed.

Not sure if that answers the guy's question , but he was a dick anyway.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

It's the system where you write your question on a slip of paper and then submit it. That's a SWP thing anyway.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

" why worry about the glass ceiling when the cellar is filling up with water". Good line.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Should I go along and ask her difficult questions? If so, what should I ask her?



Maybe ask her about her 'open letter to the german people' and why she presumes to know that german people's shopping choices are all to do with their crippling guilt about what their great grandparents did?

By the way, the english translation of her talk is a bit wonderful:

"Angry and fulminant writes Penny based on their personal experience of self-optimization, Fucked-up Girls, Lost Boys and sexual violence (also in the Occupy movement). She concludes: The Backlash against sexual freedom for men and women and against social justice is obvious - and feminism must be courageous!
We therefore want to talk to the author about lies, love, freedom and more diversity, courage and glitters in times of capitalism. *The evening will be held in English* ."


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Well the dickhead mentioned above was attacking her on similar lines. I think he was one of those anti- Deutsch people.

She's doing the lost boy thing now, crisis of masculinity etc. Simplistic analyses for everybody!


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Would you feel it's ok to ask her what the "jew joke' was, the one that she got told to her in the lift at elephant & castle?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

bimble said:


> Would you feel it's ok to ask her what the "jew joke' was, the one that she got told to her in the lift at elephant & castle?


There's no fucking way I'd ask her that.

Hipster-y, studentish crowd here, if that matters.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

"Homophobia is used to police male behavior". She gets some things right.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 22, 2016)

I don't believe a word LP writes tbh.....it's always clouded.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> There's no fucking way I'd ask her that.
> 
> Hipster-y, studentish crowd here, if that matters.


I think you're very brave even being there, anthropologising.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Someone's asked her opinion of tinder, proving that hipsters ruin everything and students are the worst.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> "Homophobia is used to police male behavior". She gets some things right.



What does that mean?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> What does that mean?


It means shut up and do as you're told, or you're going home in an ambulance.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Now we're back on to BDS which she doesn't support she says, even though people say she said it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Testosterone. "I've been interested in it ever since reading that book Testo Junkie".


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Someone's asked her opinion of tinder, proving that hipsters ruin everything and students are the worst.


She's all for tinder, because she's a. "slut feminist" and"polyamourous".

I am very, very old.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> What does that mean?


stick to your defined gender role, with all that implies, or get called a faggot and knocked out

most nakedly manifest in an all boys school ime


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

" There wouldn't be a backlash if we weren't on our way to winning". Jaysus I fucking hope so.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

The chair finds the word "winning" problematic because it implies competition.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Should I go up to her and say "urban75 says hello"? That wouldn't be a good idea, would it.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> The chair finds the word "winning" problematic because it implies competition.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Should I go up to her and say "urban75 says hello"? That wouldn't be a good idea, would it.


Do - she'd love it here, shirley.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> "polyamourous".


please tell me she at least smirked or raised one eyebrow sarcastically when she used that word? 
But wait, no, she's about 22 isn't she, she hasn't had time to survey the damage yet.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 22, 2016)

bimble said:


> Do - she'd love it here, shirley.



She's been and gone from here, drawn in by a Firky troll, left in a puff of accusations of misogyny and racism against Urbanites


----------



## emanymton (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Should I go up to her and say "urban75 says hello"? That wouldn't be a good idea, would it.


Hi, there Idris2002, urban 75 poster here. I'd like to ask why you don't come and visit any more.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 22, 2016)

BigTom said:


> She's been and gone from here, drawn in by a Firky troll, left in a puff of accusations of misogyny and racism against Urbanites


Yes bimble even the women were misogynists iirc. That went down well with all concerned.  especially when it had to be explained to her why boardroom quotas for women are pointless and solve nothing. A fun evening for all.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> The chair finds the word "winning" problematic because it implies competition.


Fucks sake, shit like this is why we keep losing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2016)

BigTom said:


> She's been and gone from here, drawn in by a Firky troll, left in a puff of accusations of misogyny and racism against Urbanites


ah yes, spiney normans claim to fame ' a journo called me racist on the web'


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Yes bimble even the women were misogynists iirc. That went down well with all concerned.  especially when it had to be explained to her why boardroom quotas for women are pointless and solve nothing. A fun evening for all.


In fairness she did say something to that effect. 

I'm now home making my tea, so I won't be able to raise the black flag of urbanite anarchy over her book tour.

Not as much fun as the time I saw George Galloway speak. Which was nearly a decade ago. Did I mention that I'm very old?


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Now we're back on to BDS which she doesn't support she says, even though people say she said it.


how very odd. She's a slippery little anchovy.

"I support people's right to boycott Israeli products and services as a protest against the ongoing occupation of Gaza and the West Bank."
&
"It means something very different for a British Jew to support a peaceful boycott of Israeli goods than it does for a German of Christian descent to support the same boycott. I understand that.."

But yeah, she never did clearly state where her own avocados come from, or whether she considers herself 'a British Jew".


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Not as much fun as the time I saw George Galloway speak. Which was nearly a decade ago



that'll be when SWP were still allied to Respect? Halcyon days indeed


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> that'll be when SWP were still allied to Respect? Halcyon days indeed


A simpler, happier time, when men were men, women were women, and little furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were little furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

bimble said:


> how very odd. She's a slippery little anchovy.
> 
> "I support people's right to boycott Israeli products and services as a protest against the ongoing occupation of Gaza and the West Bank."
> &
> ...


Mmmmm, anchovies.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

Slipperiness - she was asked about sex work, and went off on a tangent.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Slipperiness - she was asked about sex work, and went off on a tangent.


as in the legalisation of? Yes, an opportune moment to swim away all silvery, and talk about glitter-bombing capitalism or something.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

bimble said:


> as in the legalisation of? Yes, an opportune moment to swim away all silvery, and talk about glitter-bombing capitalism or something.


I couldn't actually make out what her point was on that one.


----------



## treelover (Mar 22, 2016)

bimble said:


> I don't want to play that game, never mind. It may just be personal due to my experiences that I felt that way when I read her calling a Jewish joke antisemitic bullying. If that's the worst she's experienced then maybe it was upsetting for her, even though they apologised at the time and seemed like nice kids etc. I got Yids out scrawled on my stuff, called kike Jesus killer and all that for years, so it's all relative I suppose. Whatever.



who on earth by, can't imagine your average schoolkid knowing much from the bible, etc?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 22, 2016)

treelover said:


> who on earth by, can't imagine your average schoolkid knowing much from the bible, etc?


I can easily imagine the average school kid being a racist bully, though.


----------



## bimble (Mar 22, 2016)

treelover said:


> who on earth by, can't imagine your average schoolkid knowing much from the bible, etc?


Yeah, that's the magic of schooldays though - I can see now that all it took was this one kid with a following/ high status  having antisemitic loons for parents, to turn my experience of being the jew at that institution into something totally weird from the early 20th century.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I couldn't actually make out what her point was on that one.


That probably wasn't an accident.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> In fairness she did say something to that effect.
> 
> I'm now home making my tea, so I won't be able to raise the black flag of urbanite anarchy over her book tour.
> 
> Not as much fun as the time I saw George Galloway speak. Which was nearly a decade ago. Did I mention that I'm very old?



I saw Galloway speak only a few years ago and it was shit, even our Laurie could top that.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> It's the system where you write your question on a slip of paper and then submit it. That's a SWP thing anyway.


Not a bad system if used correctly. 
It stops you calling 6 people in a row who all want to make basically the same point. 
Also if someone is asking a particular question and someone elses point will basically answer it you can call them in the correct order. 
Of course it can be used to control the discussion and make sure certain questions don't get asked. But I struggle to think of a better way to handle big meetings.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I don't believe a word LP writes tbh.....it's always clouded.



She's a journalist/writer, and aware of the need to "cloud" stuff so that she doesn't lose work. Journos almost always start out thinking that they'll never compromise their "journalistic integrity", but most of them do pretty quickly when it comes to a choice between earning and not earning.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Hi, there Idris2002, urban 75 poster here. I'd like to ask why you don't come and visit any more.



We all know why.
It's because SpineyNorman is teh racistz!!! 
And not at all because LP is a childish whiner.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's a journalist/writer, and aware of the need to "cloud" stuff so that she doesn't lose work. Journos almost always start out thinking that they'll never compromise their "journalistic integrity", but most of them do pretty quickly when it comes to a choice between earning and not earning.



Sorry - I meant she is a complete bullshitter. As for describing her as a "journalist" I doubt she has ever had a shred of journalistic integrity if there is even such a thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Sorry - I meant she is a complete bullshitter.



She is. I lost the very small amount of respect I had for her years ago when she was in New York covering Occupy! Wall Street, rioting occurred, and she tweeted about how she wasn't leaving her hotel room to cover no riot. 



> As for describing her as a "journalist" I doubt she has ever had a shred of journalistic integrity if there is even such a thing.



There's a whole generation of no-mark journos, with her and that ringpiece Johann Hari as the leaders of the worthless wankshafts.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> She is. I lost the very small amount of respect I had for her years ago when she was in New York covering Occupy! Wall Street, rioting occurred, and she tweeted about how she wasn't leaving her hotel room to cover no riot.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a whole generation of no-mark journos, with her and that ringpiece Johann Hari as the leaders of the worthless wankshafts.


Don't forget her other tweet about 'sorry folks, I'm not going back out there tonight, it's not worth getting arrested for' during the Arab spring (I think?, might be wrong, definitely riots of some kind) molly crabapple was at the same riots drawing for some book of theirs. Yet she was extolling others to go and get arrested during protests at around the same time.

Lots of double standards from her.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 22, 2016)

Liberal pro-Hillary journo calling people who object to someone's membership of a genocidal  militia sexist because he now works for the Hillary campaign.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Don't forget her other tweet about 'sorry folks, I'm not going back out there tonight, it's not worth getting arrested for' during the Arab spring (I think?, might be wrong, definitely riots of some kind) molly crabapple was at the same riots drawing for some book of theirs. Yet she was extolling others to go and get arrested during protests at around the same time.
> 
> Lots of double standards from her.


no that was occupy NY, when the police were cracking heads.

on a non lp note I do wonder how much of the enegry and drive of ONY's early days has gone into 'feeling the bern' sanders campaigning. When killary gets the nom, as she will, those people will still be angry and still be organised. Interesting times


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Liberal pro-Hillary journo calling people who object to someone's membership of a genocidal  militia sexist because he now works for the Hillary campaign.




Supporting Peter Dow?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 22, 2016)

Wash your mouth out


----------



## JimW (Mar 22, 2016)

I hope you realise Idris2002 that you have effectively "live-blogged" a commentariat event. It's a slippery slope form there to an ironic Tumblr and you should get a grip.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 22, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I am very, very old.



Don't worry, there's probably an app for people wanting to pick up very, very old people too.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 22, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Don't worry, there's probably an app for people wanting to pick up very, very old people too.



Ooooh


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2016)

JimW said:


> I hope you realise Idris2002 that you have effectively "live-blogged" a commentariat event. It's a slippery slope form there to an ironic Tumblr and you should get a grip.



has anyone seen his barnet recently? its usually the giveaway sign


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 23, 2016)

Hey come on, we're not that bad.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 23, 2016)

JimW said:


> I hope you realise Idris2002 that you have effectively "live-blogged" a commentariat event. It's a slippery slope form there to an ironic Tumblr and you should get a grip.


D'you reckon?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> D'you reckon?


Are you a hipster hiding in our ranks?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 23, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Are you a hipster hiding in our ranks?


Yes, and I'm ready to strike at the first sign of weakness.


----------



## Sue (Mar 23, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Yes, and I'm ready to strike at the first sign of weakness.


Hmm, no self-respecting hipster would have such an unkempt beard...


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 23, 2016)

Sue said:


> Hmm, no self-respecting hipster would have such an unkempt beard...


That was last year.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> no that was occupy NY, when the police were cracking heads.
> 
> on a non lp note I do wonder how much of the enegry and drive of ONY's early days has gone into 'feeling the bern' sanders campaigning. When killary gets the nom, as she will, those people will still be angry and still be organised. Interesting times


It was the Athens stuff in 2012 I was thinking about.


----------



## Sue (Mar 23, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> That was last year.



Before it was cool no doubt...


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 23, 2016)

Sue said:


> Before it was cool no doubt...


You wouldn't have heard of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2016)

Owen Jones - July 2015: 
The left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda



> Lexit may be seen as a betrayal of solidarity with the left in the EU: Syriza and Podemos in Spain are trying to change the institution, after all, not leave it. Syriza’s experience illustrates just how forlorn that cause is



Owen Jones March 2016:
To leave the EU over Brussels would be a huge victory for terror



> I will vote to remain within the European Union, even though I am critical of its current incarnation and want to change it



(The latter piece is generally sensible and i don't post this to do anything but compare the two quotes)


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Liberal pro-Hillary journo calling people who object to someone's membership of a genocidal  militia sexist because he now works for the Hillary campaign.




Marcotte is quite incredible stupid. Daou is scum.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 27, 2016)

_Awwwww._


----------



## J Ed (Mar 27, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> _Awwwww._




I would like that too it's great when people bring cute dogs and babies to work


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I would like that too it's great when people bring cute dogs and babies to work


One of the people I work with brought his new puppy in a few weeks back. She was nearly adopted as a member of the team.

Sorry. Can't fault LP for that Idris2002


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 28, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> One of the people I work with brought his new puppy in a few weeks back. She was nearly adopted as a member of the team.
> 
> Sorry. Can't fault LP for that Idris2002


I wasn't being ironical.


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I wasn't being ironical.



It's touching to see that you're taking your pet with you when you attend LP's events, but couldn't you have persuaded her to pose for a photo with you and the tiny, fluffy, happy little dog?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 28, 2016)

andysays said:


> It's touching to see that you're taking your pet with you when you attend LP's events, but couldn't you have persuaded her to pose for a photo with you and the tiny, fluffy, happy little dog?


The correct term is "animal companion", you non-PC bastard.


----------



## dendrite (Mar 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> _Awwwww._




You people are going to respect my love for cuteness if it kills you.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2016)

We'ev ,the openly Nazi hacker who Laurie thought was a hero but didn't know he was a nazi has been quite busy.
Hacker Claims Credit for Anti-Semitic Flyer Sent to College Campuses	  » ADL Blogs


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> We'ev ,the openly Nazi hacker who Laurie thought was a hero but didn't know he was a nazi has been quite busy.
> Hacker Claims Credit for Anti-Semitic Flyer Sent to College Campuses	  » ADL Blogs



Just in case the message wasn't getting through in the actual article, he's thrown up the first comment too:


----------



## agricola (Mar 28, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Just in case the message wasn't getting through in the actual article, he's thrown up the first comment too:
> 
> View attachment 85166



I suppose binary as a language does lend itself to Nazism - one reich, one volk, one ball etc.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2016)

agricola said:


> I suppose binary as a language does lend itself to Nazism - one reich, one volk, one ball etc.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 28, 2016)

agricola said:


> I suppose binary as a language does lend itself to Nazism - one reich, one volk, one ball etc.



There's only 2 types of Nazi in the world - those that understand binary and those that don't.


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


>


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Just in case the message wasn't getting through in the actual article, he's thrown up the first comment too:
> 
> View attachment 85166


I think that was for the benefit of Laurie in case she was still in doubt about his views.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2016)

'Notorious prankster'


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2016)

Pieces of paper.  Blimey Andrew.  That'll do it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 29, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> We'ev ,the openly Nazi hacker who Laurie thought was a hero but didn't know he was a nazi h



Maybe she confused him with a tiny, fluffy, happy little dog.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2016)

Her desperate opportunism  to be seen to side with anything that might seem 'radical' ( or perhaps to sell articles to the Guardian after all what can a poor girl do?) led her to champion this dick.  Her original article explained the rise of hackers which included Weev as : 
" They are in their teens and 20s; they grew up in the Bush, Blair and Brown years and came of age just as the financial crash of 2008 swept away the socioeconomic justification for Anglo-American imperialism. The online culture that they helped create believes deeply in transparency and, to that culture, digital activists who risk everything for the public's "right to know" are heroes." 
Bless.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Just in case the message wasn't getting through in the actual article, he's thrown up the first comment too:
> 
> View attachment 85166


His comment is showing as 'under moderation' now.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> His comment is showing as 'under moderation' now.


Its appearance certainly was under-moderated


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 29, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Her desperate opportunism  to be seen to side with anything that might seem 'radical' ( or perhaps to sell articles to the Guardian after all what can a poor girl do?) led her to champion this dick.  Her original article explained the rise of hackers which included Weev as :
> " They are in their teens and 20s; they grew up in the Bush, Blair and Brown years and came of age just as the financial crash of 2008 swept away the socioeconomic justification for Anglo-American imperialism. The online culture that they helped create believes deeply in transparency and, to that culture, digital activists who risk everything for the public's "right to know" are heroes."
> Bless.


Whenever I think that maybe she's not so bad really, I remember this, which is so far beyond idiocy it's not funny.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Whenever I think that maybe she's not so bad really, I remember this, which is so far beyond idiocy it's not funny.


Go easy, what self-facilitating media node hasn't accidentally boosted a neo-Nazi?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 29, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Go easy, what self-facilitating media node hasn't accidentally boosted a neo-Nazi?


Just this morning, I accidentally boosted three neo-Nazis before breakfast (it was like that Morecombe and Wise sketch where they use the kitchen for a dance routine).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Just this morning, I accidentally boosted three neo-Nazis before breakfast (it was like that Morecombe and Wise sketch where they use the kitchen for a dance routine).


I bet Weev can comedy-waggle his specs with the best of them


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 29, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> I bet Weev can comedy-waggle his specs with the best of them


I wouldn't hit a guy with glasses. . . _with one exception._


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 30, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Marcotte is quite incredible stupid. Daou is scum.



Just an average day's posting from Amanda Marcotte, America's stupidest media Clintonite. I find her existence vaguely fascinating because while the talent pool of worthless right wing liberal writers is quite shallow in Britain and all kinds of non-entities can hold down a gig at the Guardian or the New Statesman, the US has shitloads of worthless right wing liberal writers and some of them are very clever. There are dedicated Clinton boosters who are skilled and sophisticated purveyors of neoliberal lies, yet somehow Marcotte makes a living. This is a clear case of market failure.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 30, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I wouldn't hit a guy with glasses. . . _with one exception._


----------



## J Ed (Mar 30, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Just an average day's posting from Amanda Marcotte, America's stupidest media Clintonite. I find her existence vaguely fascinating because while the talent pool of worthless right wing liberal writers is quite shallow in Britain and all kinds of non-entities can hold down a gig at the Guardian or the New Statesman, the US has shitloads of worthless right wing liberal writers and some of them are very clever. There are dedicated Clinton boosters who are skilled and sophisticated purveyors of neoliberal lies, yet somehow Marcotte makes a living. This is a clear case of market failure.




The stuff she writes is stupid. Really, really stupid. I don't think that she is though, she tailors her writing at a particular demographic which is receptive of her nonsense.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 30, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Go easy, what self-facilitating media node hasn't accidentally boosted a neo-Nazi?



Which of us can honestly say we haven't retweeted the EDL and then got all huffy when called on it, saying it happened because we were "in the middle of a riot".


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 30, 2016)

Casually Red said:


>




Room for one more?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 30, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Room for one more?


3rd prize at the fancy dress competition - the Poundland cammo top with the silly epaulettes let the ensemble down though.


----------



## JimW (Mar 30, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> 3rd prize at the fancy dress competition - the Poundland cammo top with the silly epaulettes let the ensemble down though.


It is almost a moustache though, if you squint a bit.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 30, 2016)

JimW said:


> It is almost a moustache though, if you squint a bit.


No amount of facial hair could disguise that particular killer geek's chinlessness.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 30, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> No amount of facial hair could disguise that particular killer geek's chinlessness.



My mum was a waitress and and she used to say a lot of the upper class were "chinless wonders". I always loved that term


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 1, 2016)

Words that sink hearts:



> ...Here's a piece I wrote about...


----------



## J Ed (Apr 1, 2016)

Top Conservative Writer Is A Group Effort, Sources Say


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Top Conservative Writer Is A Group Effort, Sources Say


"I'm a busy capitalist cheerleader, of course I have unpaid minions to do all the heavy lifting, hard graft and tedious actual work without any credit."


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 4, 2016)

""


----------



## killer b (Apr 4, 2016)

pick me!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 6, 2016)

Can anyone actually find 'the leftwing case for nuclear weapons' in this video?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 6, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> ""




We should start a rival petition to demand that Owen Jones leaves Bernie Sanders alone


----------



## two sheds (Apr 6, 2016)

Or someone from urban doing a video interview with Owen Jones?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 6, 2016)

Fruits of Laurie's recent visit to Halle:

For refugee women in Germany, solidarity is non-negotiable


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 6, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Fruits of Laurie's recent visit to Halle:
> 
> For refugee women in Germany, solidarity is non-negotiable



Is it just me, or is that just write-by-numbers?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 8, 2016)

Celebrity Lib Dem millionaire Billy Bragg:



(Marvin Rees is Labour's _second time lucky_ mayoral candidate, who will be facing the incumbent, erm, (local) celebrity Lib Dem millionaire George Ferguson.)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 8, 2016)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is it just me, or is that just write-by-numbers?


I suppose so. She does do good tweet (this one is in response to the news that SamCam has a very expensive fashion designer):


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Can anyone actually find 'the leftwing case for nuclear weapons' in this video?




Meanwhile seems like Mason is starting to make the case for left wing fascism


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 10, 2016)

She's actually quite good at this sort of one-liner. Maybe she should have been a stand-up comic?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 24, 2016)

The Bruenig Firing: 'Civility' As A Tool To Control Dissent

This weeks huge yank commentariat spat. A prominent left wing writer gets in a row with a prominent centrist Clintonite journalist and a prominent Clintonite think tank boss, the latter of whom is likely to be in the inner circle of a future Clinton regime. Gets fired by the slightly more liberal think tank he worked for. The whole liberal and left commentariat immediately take sides: Is this about evil brocialists harassing women and people of colour? Or is this about centrist neoliberal elites putting the fear of impoverishment into their left wing critics?

(It's the second option)


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 24, 2016)

That particular row has effectively eaten American liberal and left twitter. The US has a much, much larger media industry and just about everyone in it, in the range between liberal-centrist and left wing, seems to want a say. You can immediately predict the content of just about every take by asking yourself "does this person support Hillary Clinton" before reading.

It's quite interesting in a way that this kind of row on this side of the Irish Sea rarely is. The driving forces are (a) the bewilderment and frustration of establishment journalists at the strength and persistence of Sanders support and their consequent desire to reinforce the old boundaries of acceptable opinion and (b) the way in which they are adapting to a new social media environment where their opinions can be immediately met with a dozen completely random nobodies pouring scorn on their views or sending them pictures of pig shit.


----------



## J Ed (May 24, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That particular row has effectively eaten American liberal and left twitter. The US has a much, much larger media industry and just about everyone in it, in the range between liberal-centrist and left wing, seems to want a say. You can immediately predict the content of just about every take by asking yourself "does this person support Hillary Clinton" before reading.
> 
> It's quite interesting in a way that this kind of row on this side of the Irish Sea rarely is. The driving forces are (a) the bewilderment and frustration of establishment journalists at the strength and persistence of Sanders support and their consequent desire to reinforce the old boundaries of acceptable opinion and (b) the way in which they are adapting to a new social media environment where their opinions can be immediately met with a dozen completely random nobodies pouring scorn on their views or sending them pictures of pig shit.



I have found the entire spat incredible on so many levels.

The absolute brazen hypocrisy of the people who have gone after Bruenig is just incredible. You have an alliance of some of the most power people in the Democratic Party, the media, right-wing libertarians, neoconservative interventionists and people who do PR for Central Asian dictators all lining up to get Bruenig and his wife sacked from their jobs while using the language of social justice and alleging harassment. One of the best examples I have seen is the Daily Kos Labour editor trying to find out whether Bruenig can be sacked from his job at the NLRB on the basis of a legislative technicality.

There are so many worrying implications in this turn in discourse, some of which I am sure we do not yet understand. In the short term I suppose it's good for power, this stuff seems to genuinely convince some people. In the long term it's going to be great for the sort of people who allege mendacity whenever someone speaks out against racism, sexism or other types of bigotry.


----------



## J Ed (May 24, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That particular row has effectively eaten American liberal and left twitter. The US has a much, much larger media industry and just about everyone in it, in the range between liberal-centrist and left wing, seems to want a say. You can immediately predict the content of just about every take by asking yourself "does this person support Hillary Clinton" before reading.
> 
> It's quite interesting in a way that this kind of row on this side of the Irish Sea rarely is. The driving forces are (a) the bewilderment and frustration of establishment journalists at the strength and persistence of Sanders support and their consequent desire to reinforce the old boundaries of acceptable opinion and (b) the way in which they are adapting to a new social media environment where their opinions can be immediately met with a dozen completely random nobodies pouring scorn on their views or sending them pictures of pig shit.



You can sort of see the same process here really with Corbyn, there was a huge amount of media effort put into painting all Corbyn supporters as misogynists during the leadership campaign and then again prior to the vote on Syria.


----------



## LDC (May 25, 2016)

Another exhibit in the Paul Mason, Laurie Penny, Molly Crabapple and The Guardian love-in... Molly Crabapple: the sketcher blurring activism and art


----------



## The Pale King (May 25, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You can sort of see the same process here really with Corbyn, there was a huge amount of media effort put into painting all Corbyn supporters as misogynists during the leadership campaign and then again prior to the vote on Syria.



See also the efforts to paint the protest outside Stella Creasy's constituency office following her vote to bomb Syrian people as mysoginistic harrassment / attacks on her house/person/safety etc.

Political criticism=bullying/harrassment now, and as you pertinently said on another thread, it's defined as something only the powerful suffer and only the powerless can be guilty of. A new turn in neoliberal subjectivity perhaps...


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 25, 2016)

The convenient part about the Bruenig incident is that it provides an almost unerring way of telling if some American leftish journalist or columnist that you've never really paid much attention to is a complete prick. There are some pricks on the pro-Bruenig side, sure, but pretty much every single person who has sided with the anti-Bruenig side is scum.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 25, 2016)

It's an entertaining way to kill a few minutes on public transport. Think of someone sort of well known as a left or liberal writer and then guess what side they've taken. If they are an American they will almost certainly have taken one.

For instance: Glenn Greenwald or Melissa Gira Grant. Guess. No cheating by looking.


----------



## gawkrodger (May 28, 2016)

‘It makes you want to fight back’: activists on life after prison

could be a lot worse


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 8, 2016)

When you've really, really run out of things worth saying, you can always scribble a few thousand disjointed words about the 'masculinity crisis', a condition that in my experience only really affects desperate columnists. How to be a man - Owen Jones.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 9, 2016)

I see Aaron Bastani of Novara Media has changed his mind and no longer supports Brexit. Brave re-assessment of the facts, or Boris Johnson of the left?

Why I've changed my mind on Brexit


----------



## J Ed (Jun 9, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I see Aaron Bastani of Novara Media has changed his mind and no longer supports Brexit. Brave re-assessment of the facts, or Boris Johnson of the left?
> 
> Why I've changed my mind on Brexit



I suspect he take whatever position will get him on the telly


----------



## kavenism (Jun 9, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I see Aaron Bastani of Novara Media has changed his mind and no longer supports Brexit. Brave re-assessment of the facts, or Boris Johnson of the left?
> 
> Why I've changed my mind on Brexit




So it’s back to half measures, equivocation and turning your back on a potential fight then. Back to the much vaunted drive for “real power” in 2020.

How does he expect Corbyn’s Labour to win back those WC who are voting for Brexit when they have lined up behind Cameron and the status quo? If those voters thought Labour were a shower last year they are hardly going to be well disposed to them now that their radical leader has shown himself willing to capitulate to exactly what is causing them to turn to UKIP.

The point is well made though that once Corbyn turned out for Brexit the game was up for any cohesive left campaign. A serious mistake Bastani and his buddies are going to regret but almost certainly never admit.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 10, 2016)

kavenism said:


> they are hardly going to be well disposed to them now that their radical leader has shown himself willing to capitulate to exactly what is causing them to turn to UKIP.


Should Jeremy Corbyn just go along with the idea that the years of declining wages and public services (which is I think what a lot of people are angry about) are down to EU immigration? Rather than, say, a government determined to suppress wage levels and destroy public services?

Has JC done a good job of convincing people that their declining standard of living _isn't_ down to immigration? Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean he should just go along with the notion (the one causing many people to turn to UKIP) that immigration is the problem. Sadly he hasn't really managed to change any mainstream narratives after years of Labour capitulation to right wing narratives*, but is that his fault? It was a difficult task and he hasn't exactly been fully supported by his party.


*Including the unfathomably bizarre capitulation to the notion it was Labour overspend that led to 'austerity'


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 10, 2016)

fwiw, I think a Corbyn-led lexit campaign would have been very interesting, could have really changed the landscape of the referendum, and would have raised opinions of him among many people. His party was never going to allow it though.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

A "government determined to suppress wage levels and destroy public services?" Why? Do that question first.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> fwiw, I think a Corbyn-led lexit campaign would have been very interesting, could have really changed the landscape of the referendum, and would have raised opinions of him among many people. His party was never going to allow it though.


Which party? The voters? The membership? The PLP? Why? Who owned it enough to stop him?


----------



## kavenism (Jun 11, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> fwiw, I think a Corbyn-led lexit campaign would have been very interesting, could have really changed the landscape of the referendum, and would have raised opinions of him among many people. His party was never going to allow it though.



Indeed that's what I was getting at. Of course I wouldn't expect a Corbyn Brexit position to be based on anti-immigrant arguments. Who would!? His position as with many others on the old Labour left has been that the EU is a trans-national capitalist institution that overall does far more harm than good. Pushing those arguments for Brexit would certainly have been interesting. As it stands however if Brexit happens it'll be framed as a victory for  anti-immigrant arguments rather than anything progressive. Labour will start on the back foot in the battles that follow.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 13, 2016)




----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 13, 2016)

I'm not sure I know what pansexual is myself, tbh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 13, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not sure I know what pansexual is myself, tbh.





DotCommunist said:


>



Much like Pan himself, anything is open. Lets just fuck it all.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Much like Pan himself, anything is open. Lets just fuck it all.


Presumably only consensual adult sexual behaviours?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Presumably only consensual adult sexual behaviours?



Not if they are truly following the teachings of Pan.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


>


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 13, 2016)

So it's something to do with those people that dress up as woodland creatures or dragons, right?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not if they are truly following the teachings of Pan.


 They really need to use brackets.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So it's something to do with those people that dress up as woodland creatures or dragons, right?


no thats Otherkin.


----------



## JimW (Jun 13, 2016)

Can only get it up for 70s TV dance troupes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

in this sense of the word 'pan' is being used to mean similar to omni The picture up there is Pan the woodland diety. Playing the pipes named after him, the piper at the gates of dawn etc


----------



## JimW (Jun 13, 2016)

Christ on a Pantocrator.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> in this sense of the word 'pan' is being used to mean similar to omni The picture up there is Pan the woodland diety. Playing the pipes named after him, the piper at the gates of dawn etc


----------



## killer b (Jun 13, 2016)

I think she's just kidding around there y'know guys.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

its obviously a joke killer thanks for enlightening us. I was lolling more at cynical economies confusion. Also I've looked up smart kitchens and if thats the future your fridge will txt you when the milk is off, check did you leave the oven on with an app. the future is here


----------



## Sue (Jun 13, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think she's just kidding around there y'know guys.


It's sometimes a wee bit difficult to tell tbh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

not this one, its an obvious pan gag. Just giggling now about killer thinking nobody had spotted it lol


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 13, 2016)

The joke being of course that you wouldn't cook with a pan that you had sex with. That would be weird.


----------



## killer b (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Just giggling now about killer thinking nobody had spotted it lol


'cause that's totally what happened.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 13, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The joke being of course that you wouldn't cook with a pan that you had sex with. That would be weird.


Well, once you're done playing "hide the sausage", you need something to cook it in.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 13, 2016)

that's a joke, btw, killer b


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The joke being of course that you wouldn't cook with a pan that you had sex with. That would be weird.



Unless you intended seasoning the dish with the chef's special sauce, obviously.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 9, 2016)

Theisticle said:


> Bloodworth is such a shitty neocon hack.


Our old chum is finally getting stuck into the whole Labour leadership thing now:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 10, 2016)

_Liberal_ commentariat lawyers discuss how best to stitch up Corbyn


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 10, 2016)

when they do finally knife him the gloating is going to be off the scale.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


>




that's reasonably funny tbf


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2016)

when you're on twitter so much that a bot reaches out to you...


----------



## cantsin (Jul 11, 2016)

*(((Jack Monroe)))* ‏@MxJackMonroe  40m40 minutes ago
Oh my god no general election no no no no no no WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE COCKING POLITICAL JOURNALISTS WE HAVEN'T SLEPT SINCE APRIL

'Doctor' prefix now ( wisely ) dispensed with, so it's 'POLITICAL JOURNALIST' time.

'


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 22, 2016)

So Owen Jones is a bit trigger happy with the old block function: I tweeted something that mentioned 'Oxford' and 'Liberal Media bubble' following his anti-Corbyn turn (while also acknowledging that he spoken some sense after the riots), followed up with a less provocative tweet asking what he hoped to achieve by this move at the momenmt - and just noticed that I have been blocked.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 22, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> So Owen Jones is a bit trigger happy with the old block function: I tweeted something that mentioned 'Oxford' and 'Liberal Media bubble' following his anti-Corbyn turn (while also acknowledging that he spoken some sense after the riots), followed up with a less provocative tweet asking what he hoped to achieve by this move at the momenmt - and just noticed that I have been blocked.



Probably feels guilty


----------



## 8den (Jul 22, 2016)

When Pennydreadful met Nero (aka milo) at the RNC. 

Two quotes come to mind both from "Aliens" films funnily enough; 

"Whoever wins, we lose."

And 

"Let's take off and nuke the site from orbit" 

I’m With The Banned — Welcome to the Scream Room


----------



## J Ed (Jul 22, 2016)

8den said:


> When Pennydreadful met Nero (aka milo) at the RNC.
> 
> Two quotes come to mind both from "Aliens" films funnily enough;
> 
> ...





> He tells me that the reason I have a column is that I’m a useful idiot and all my readers have low IQs. I ask him if he’s negging me.



There are a few good lols in that


----------



## J Ed (Jul 22, 2016)

The milo phenomenon is so strange, how is it that a camp Brit has become the conduit for the anger of young right-wing Americans? They really, really love him in a way that I find mystifying.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 22, 2016)

There's a whole thread about MY btw: Milo Banned!


----------



## 8den (Jul 22, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There's a whole thread about MY btw: Milo Banned!



I thought this was excellent cross purpose multimedia 
re conceptualisation exploring the "MRA movement" from both a feminist and socialist perspective.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 22, 2016)

I actually enjoyed Penny's piece, in parts it was very funny, but I don't really get what she is saying about the irony thing. I watched the whole of the gays for Trump milo video because I didn't understand what she meant about Americans having a different reaction to milo because they struggle with irony and having watched the video I am no further forward.

milo sets out a position, the leftist stab in the back to curry favour with practicioners of Islam, that I have heard in the past from other gay right-wingers, even ones who don't take an active interest in politics. It's a pretty well established narrative now, he's just presenting it in a theatrical style.

I have to admit I don't 'get' what people like about milo, and his relative lack of career success in the UK compared with the US can probably be attributed to something but I don't know what it is. I don't think it's getting or not getting irony.


----------



## inva (Jul 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I have to admit I don't 'get' what people like about milo, and his relative lack of career success in the UK compared with the US can probably be attributed to something but I don't know what it is. I don't think it's getting or not getting irony.


could it not be just that the anti-'SJW'/MRA/whatever crowd is bigger in the US than over here? that's my impression anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2016)

cantsin said:


> *(((Jack Monroe)))* ‏@MxJackMonroe  40m40 minutes ago
> Oh my god no general election no no no no no no WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE COCKING POLITICAL JOURNALISTS WE HAVEN'T SLEPT SINCE APRIL
> 
> 'Doctor' prefix now ( wisely ) dispensed with, so it's 'POLITICAL JOURNALIST' time.
> ...


Probably best, if memory serves it was honorary anyway and most honorary doctorate degrees don't confer the title as far as I'm aware.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I actually enjoyed Penny's piece, in parts it was very funny, but I don't really get what she is saying about the irony thing. I watched the whole of the gays for Trump milo video because I didn't understand what she meant about Americans having a different reaction to milo because they struggle with irony and having watched the video I am no further forward.
> 
> milo sets out a position, the leftist stab in the back to curry favour with practicioners of Islam, that I have heard in the past from other gay right-wingers, even ones who don't take an active interest in politics. It's a pretty well established narrative now, he's just presenting it in a theatrical style.
> 
> I have to admit I don't 'get' what people like about milo, and his relative lack of career success in the UK compared with the US can probably be attributed to something but I don't know what it is. I don't think it's getting or not getting irony.


My favourite bit of that article was where she talked about the media being full of posh graduates as if she wasn't one of them. Laurie,  you went to Oxford,  remember? 

I don't get the whole milo thing either. I think it's because he's made being a twat into a career.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 23, 2016)

J Ed said:


> There are a few good lols in that


Maybe, but I couldn't make it past the first paragraph.


----------



## inva (Jul 23, 2016)

inva said:


> could it not be just that the anti-'SJW'/MRA/whatever crowd is bigger in the US than over here? that's my impression anyway.


adding further to this, if we try to trace the development of this particular right wing trend I think you would go back from the present swamp through 4chan angry geek culture and its edgy racism/mysogny/homophobia etc, as well as the Ron Paul presidential campaign of 2008 (particularly its internet presence) which I think saw some of this form into something approaching a precursor movement (remembering the defences of racism and ideology of strong vs weak). There's also the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who overlap here and this conspiracy mindset is definitely widespread among anti-SJWs/MRAs/etc regarding cultural Marxism, misandry and so on which further connects with older strands of the US anti Communist right but also has strong similarities I believe with white supremacists and the paranoia, conspiracy and viciousness of racist ideology.

There's legacies then I think of narratives of cold war, race war and culture war which have shaped how this has evolved. So compared with the UK there is a larger space for this kind of politics and with much deeper roots, where here although it is present and possibly growing it's existing in a shallower way, perhaps too reliant on internet culture and lacking the historical ingredients that have nurtured it in the US.

Regarding irony which you mentioned J Ed describing Penny's argument, like you I can't see how it is much of an explanation for Yiannopoulos' popularity. There is an 'ironic' element in the way he and others who share those politics present themselves largely derived as far as I know from its internet form and ties with 'chan' culture/Encyclopedia Dramatica where 'ironic racism' merges seamlessly with real racism, for example. What it does provide is a level of deniability and this can help to establish legitimacy for its views. The most obvious example being how people were taken in by gamergate (it's actually about ethics or whatever that meme thing was). It can also be seen in the way that Laurie Penny and others engage with people like Yiannopoulos and self styled white supremacist Andrew Auernheimer in a way that they never would without that layer of irony. It's a feeble excuse for giving them airtime and glamourising them in my opinion.

Anyway, that's my explanation from what I know. I didn't go in to US libertarianism much aside from Ron Paul but that's mixed up in it too isn't it.


----------



## 8den (Jul 23, 2016)

If she was such a committed feminist, even her tact acceptance of Milo's intolerance and misogyny by turning up and hanging out with him is nauseating. I'm not of the "no free speech" school, but that doesnt mean you should go out on the pull with them afterwards.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 23, 2016)

8den said:


> If she was such a committed feminist, even her tact acceptance of Milo's intolerance and misogyny by turning up and hanging out with him is nauseating. I'm not of the "no free speech" school, but that doesn't mean you should go out on the pull with them afterwards.


Well yes - she can either be the kind of journalist who befriends and gets into marginally gonzo-style adventures with all sorts of outrageous and dubious characters, and then reports back (from a left/feminist perspective even) in order to shed light on some dark elements of politics or culture or whatever - great (I actually quite enjoyed that article)!  Or she can be the kind of commentator that aims to be the voice of the queer feminist left or whatever.  She doesn't have enough self-awareness (or maybe she does but just doesn't care) that getting hammered with Milo and going on the pull with him, or getting a tinder date with Geert Wilder's mate, or going to Weev's parties, undermine her queer feminist radical leftist credentials yet she'd still happy to put herself in the position (with then help of her oxford/public school network) of being the go-to commentator whenever channel 4 news or the guardian want a "radical" perspective.  Then she wonders why she gets so much criticism!


----------



## 8den (Jul 23, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Well yes - she can either the kind of journalist who befriends and gets into marginally gonzo-style adventures with all sorts of outrageous and dubious characters, and then reports back (from a left/feminist perspective even) in order to shed light on some dark elements of politics or culture or whatever - great (I actually quite enjoyed that article)!  Or she can be the kind of commentator that aims to be the voice of the queer feminist left or whatever.  She doesn't have enough self-awareness (or maybe she does but just doesn't care) that getting hammered with Milo and going on the pull with him, or getting a tinder date with Geert Wilder's mate, or going to Weev's parties, undermine her queer feminist radical leftist credentials yet she'd still happy to put herself in the position (with then help of her oxford/public school network) of being the go-to commentator whenever channel 4 news or the guardian want a "radical" perspective.  Then she wonders why she gets so much criticism!



Said it much better than I.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Why It's Important to See Women Smoking Weed | VICE | United States


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why It's Important to See Women Smoking Weed | VICE | United States


the most important feminist struggle


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> the most important feminist struggle



tbh it makes some good points about every day sexism but I just love the title


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Have to say I like the Milo character, he's a complete cynic and so transparent but still these earnest idiots get wound up by him. 

He's basically a camp in shape Eric Cartman and everyone loves Cartman, not despite him being an asshole but because of it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Have to say I like the Milo character, he's a complete cynic and so transparent but still these earnest idiots get wound up by him.
> 
> He's basically a camp in shape Eric Cartman and everyone loves Cartman, not despite him being an asshole but because of it.


Fucking hell, it's revol68. Where've you been, man? And what did you see out there?


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Fucking hell, it's revol68. Where've you been, man? And what did you see out there?



Not been up to much, just came back to see if the IWCA statement on BLM UK had whipped up any bunfights. It doesn't appear to have and everyone is being annoyingly reasonable in the P&P forums


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 8, 2016)

Thought I'd take the unusual step of posting a comment piece I quite like (don't worry, it contradicts some other commentariat types so is still in the spirit of the thread): Why allies are welcome to criticise social movements

I like it because I've sometimes felt the 'shut up and listen' line to be not very useful in certain situations. E.g. when discussing racism with black people who tell me racism isn't important and black people should stop going on about it (has happened a couple of times to me). Or even in that awkward situation where one black person tells you white dreadlocks are cultural appropriation, and another says they are proud of the influence of black culture they demonstrate. You can't really avoid having your own opinions on things that are happening to groups less privileged than you - just hopefully after listening for a while...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

Allies is a disgusting concept that starts from the position of discrete competing interests (closely tied to culture - i.e race) who can temporarily re-align over certain specific issues then move away again to their different interests. Like states. Fuck allies.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Allies is a disgusting concept that starts from the position of discrete competing interests (closely tied to culture - i.e race) who can temporarily re-align over certain specific issues then move away again to their different interests. Like states. Fuck allies.


Don't you think it gets used in different ways sometimes? Your description seems like the extreme end of it. I feel like I've seen uses of the word admit that the interests of 'allies' can be aligned long-term. The article above implies that men and women can fight together against sexism, for example - and have a shared interest in doing so. It seems to me that at the better end of the concept, it can include the idea that people might have different life experiences but still need to work together.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't you think it gets used in different ways sometimes? Your description seems like the extreme end of it. I feel like I've seen uses of the word admit that the interests of 'allies' can be aligned long-term. The article above implies that men and women can fight together against sexism, for example - and have a shared interest in doing so. It seems to me that at the better end of the concept, it can include the idea that people might have different life experiences but still need to work together.


It's current  - and i would say near sole - use is in political organisng and analysis is as weaponised specialised racialised tactical manouvere. It's part of an agenda driven discourse of personal grudges and careerist bureaucratic tricks.

Of course all the soppy stuff you mention still exists but isn't what is meant here. Not by a long shot.


----------



## Ole (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Allies is a disgusting concept that starts from the position of discrete competing interests (closely tied to culture - i.e race) who can temporarily re-align over certain specific issues then move away again to their different interests. Like states. Fuck allies.


What a great point.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Not been up to much, just came back to see if the IWCA statement on BLM UK had whipped up any bunfights. It doesn't appear to have and everyone is being annoyingly reasonable in the P&P forums


Can't disagree with their sentiments. How's the anarchist scene in Ireland ?


----------



## revol68 (Aug 8, 2016)

Shite tbh, wsm took another opportunist turn into intersectionalist sjw guff. Belfast has a tiny anarcho scene but no critical mass. 

I'm not really interested in activism though


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't you think it gets used in different ways sometimes? Your description seems like the extreme end of it. I feel like I've seen uses of the word admit that the interests of 'allies' can be aligned long-term. The article above implies that men and women can fight together against sexism, for example - and have a shared interest in doing so. It seems to me that at the better end of the concept, it can include the idea that people might have different life experiences but still need to work together.



We didn't call long-term political partners "allies" back in the day. We called them "comrades". This lot, they're not about long-term commitment to ideals, they're about garnering short-term political advantage by partnering up with any old cunt whose political reach will benefit theirs/give them some credibility points.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 19, 2016)

Tangential, but ballpark nonetheless:



> “Who is controlling the production of the history of Kenya? That was white men from Oxbridge, not a young American girl from Harvard,” she says.



Uncovering the brutal truth about the British empire | Marc Parry

Ah! The old _plucky outsider from Harvard_ motif 

(Interesting article, mind.)


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 19, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tangential, but ballpark nonetheless:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought "this is surprisingly hard hitting for the G", then I saw that it was reprinted from"the Chronicle of Higher Education".


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 19, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Shite tbh, wsm took another opportunist turn into intersectionalist sjw guff. Belfast has a tiny anarcho scene but no critical mass.
> 
> I'm not really interested in activism though



You are giving the WSM too much credit for tactical cleverness. The few of them that are left are completely genuine in their "intersectional sjw" beliefs.

As for the IWCA statement, what IWCA statement?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 19, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> what IWCA statement?



“Pick up that fahking dog shit, sahn!”


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 19, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tangential, but ballpark nonetheless:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did like this line


> She finds that Elkins’s current “narrative of victimisation” also rings a bit false. “There’s only so much ostracism one can plausibly claim if you won a Pulitzer and you became a full professor at Harvard – and this on the strength of the book that supposedly also made you outcast and vilified by all and sundry,” she says. “If only all the rest of us could be ostracised and have to make do with a Pulitzer and a full professorship at Harvard.”


The proposed film sounds sickening


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 19, 2016)

Am i the only one getting annoyed at the Indy's and Al Jazeera's (among others) constant headlines/posts saying shit like 'this happened and you dont care about it' then when you go to read the article its just a news story. I am actually less likely to read something if i feel im being emotionally blackmailed.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 19, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Am i the only one getting annoyed at the Indy's and Al Jazeera's (among others) constant headlines/posts saying shit like 'this happened and you dont care about it' then when you go to read the article its just a news story. I am actually less likely to read something if i feel im being emotionally blackmailed.


Most people around here are inoculated against such why-why-whyery due to prolonged treelover exposure.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 19, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Most people around here are inoculated against such why-why-whyery due to prolonged treelover exposure.



its just these websites have fuck all idea what i do and dont care about. Also not sharing certain stories or wanting to look at them on a particular day doesnt mean im a heartless person.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 19, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Am i the only one getting annoyed at the Indy's and Al Jazeera's (among others) constant headlines/posts saying shit like 'this happened and you dont care about it' then when you go to read the article its just a news story. I am actually less likely to read something if i feel im being emotionally blackmailed.


It's the new clickbait. "You won't BELIEVE what you didn't care about today".


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 20, 2016)

Like clockwork, here it comes:

Ageist and body-shaming Trump statue falls short as art and satire


----------



## brogdale (Aug 23, 2016)

If you're keen to share la Penny's workload.....


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 23, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Am i the only one getting annoyed at the Indy's and Al Jazeera's (among others) constant headlines/posts saying shit like 'this happened and you dont care about it' then when you go to read the article its just a news story. I am actually less likely to read something if i feel im being emotionally blackmailed.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 23, 2016)

brogdale said:


> If you're keen to share la Penny's workload.....





I don't have Twatter but if she can ask him what he thinks about the pedestrianisation of Norwich town centre I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 23, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> I don't have Twatter but if she can ask him what he thinks about the pedestrianisation of Norwich town centre I'd appreciate it.


I've asked her on twatter to ask him. Your long nightmare will soon be over.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 4, 2016)

George Monbiot and Ewan McLennan - The Berry






£16.50 entrance fee for someone to go in and call out a request for the Girls Aloud Krondstadt song.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 12, 2016)

20 Ways to Help Your Employees Struggling with Food Insecurity and Hunger


----------



## emanymton (Sep 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> 20 Ways to Help Your Employees Struggling with Food Insecurity and Hunger


Oh you could maybe just, you know, pay them enough that they can afford to fucking eat!


----------



## J Ed (Sep 12, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Oh you could maybe just, you know, pay them enough that they can afford to fucking eat!



Odd how the author could think of 20 reasons and not include that


----------



## inva (Sep 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Odd how the author could think of 20 reasons and not include that


looking at what they've got posted under the class tag on their site, it's striking that the assumption of the articles I saw on the 1st page at least all pretty much seem to assume that the reader isn't among the working class/poor they're talking about. It's like it's an alien species that they're teaching their audience how to deal with/think about (as they fly overhead in planes etc) 

Neoliberals


----------



## Libertad (Sep 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> 20 Ways to Help Your Employees Struggling with Food Insecurity and Hunger



_Wiley Reading _ORLY?


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 12, 2016)

From the article:

15. If an employee has disclosed to you that they struggle with hunger, thank them for disclosing, and let them know you know there is no shame in being hungry, and you will not penalize them.

...Gee thanks for not penalising me boss! 

The article begins "Whether you're coming from a place of compassion, or of wanting the employees to be more productive..."

Jaw-dropping stuff frankly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2016)

demand that they take the scraps. What is this, the 19th or the 21st century. You cheeky cunts


----------



## Ole (Sep 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> 20 Ways to Help Your Employees Struggling with Food Insecurity and Hunger


The fucking Yanks are unbelievable at times


----------



## andysays (Sep 13, 2016)

J Ed said:


> 20 Ways to Help Your Employees Struggling with Food Insecurity and Hunger



When I clicked on than link, a pop-up appeared inviting me to reserve a place on a workshop on


> Healing from Toxic Whiteness to Better Fight for Racial Justice


----------



## emanymton (Sep 13, 2016)

andysays said:


> When I clicked on than link, a pop-up appeared inviting me to reserve a place on a workshop on


Well I hope you reserved your place!


----------



## Ole (Sep 13, 2016)

andysays said:


> When I clicked on than link, a pop-up appeared inviting me to reserve a place on a workshop on



 you've got to love them.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2016)

andysays said:


> When I clicked on than link, a pop-up appeared inviting me to reserve a place on a workshop on


I didn't get my invite to the workshop 

And that article - I have no words for some of it.


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 13, 2016)

Why does everything have to be described as 'toxic' nowadays


----------



## JimW (Sep 13, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> Why does everything have to be described as 'toxic' nowadays


Easier to spell than invidious.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 13, 2016)

JimW said:


> Easier to spell than invidious.



Or poisonousity.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 13, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> Why does everything have to be described as 'toxic' nowadays



I blame Britney Spears.


----------



## andysays (Sep 13, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I didn't get my invite to the workshop


Could be that you're not toxic enough to require a place, or maybe you're *so* toxically white as to beyond the help of even a healing workshop...


> And that article - I have no words for some of it.


I confess, I never actually got as far as reading the article


----------



## two sheds (Sep 13, 2016)

It's very good


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I didn't get my invite to the workshop


must try harder


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> must try harder


Clearly


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> It's very good


a lie so enormous it has unbalanced the worlds axis and doomed us all to eternal winter


----------



## inva (Sep 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> 20 Ways to Help Your Employees Struggling with Food Insecurity and Hunger


it's ok, they've 'un published' it.



			
				Everyday Feminism said:
			
		

> After posting the new piece on Facebook, we received a comment from a reader that finally made it click for us, giving us the “ah-ha” moment that we needed to more fully understand the scope of our mistake: The issue wasn’t simply about the framing of the article; it was who we addressed it to and why – and how that contributed to the very oppression that we’re working to dismantle. At that point, we understood then that our “solution,” therefore, still didn’t address the issue in a responsible way.





> We know that this work includes making mistakes. But we also know that we need to own up to those mistakes when they happen – and to work tirelessly at not making them in the future. The best we can hope for is to have opportunities to keep getting better. Thanks for pushing us to do just that.


Fucking nauseating 
Don't know why they're apologising, it's in line with the other stuff they publish. They should embrace their class politics.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 14, 2016)

they showed poor allyship


----------



## andysays (Sep 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> they showed poor allyship



They're also offering a course in everyday-self-love which sounds from the title like it would be right up your street


----------



## emanymton (Sep 14, 2016)

andysays said:


> They're also offering a course in everyday-self-love which sounds from the title like it would be right up your street


$97, why not just call it $100!

Anyway sounds like a lot of hippy bollocks. 





> [*]Being resilient to toxic messages within yourself and from others
> [*]Honoring and communicating your needs and wants
> [*]Accepting your internal experiences with compassion, not judgment
> [*]Finding validation within yourself and prioritizing your own truth


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 14, 2016)

emanymton said:


> $97, why not just call it $100!
> 
> Anyway sounds like a lot of hippy bollocks.


Just as well I didn't get an invite - the urge to shout 'this is a load of hippy bollocks ' would have been great


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 14, 2016)

The most unpleasant part of that hungry-worker post is that it was written by somebody who had been in that position. If it had just been some dumb entrepreneur type you could simply write it off as the usual crap from privileged arseholes who've never actually thought it through. But somebody writing from the perspective of someone who actually hadn't had enough to eat, yet not even thinking to say "maybe pay us more"... that's horrible.

I've seen various folk saying how it shows how disconnected the outcomes of poverty have become from the reasons for poverty, as if "food insecurity" was some sort of illness that you just caught and employers should be sensitive to, rather than it directly being their fucking fault. That being internalised is terrible but predictable.


----------



## inva (Sep 14, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The most unpleasant part of that hungry-worker post is that it was written by somebody who had been in that position. If it had just been some dumb entrepreneur type you could simply write it off as the usual crap from privileged arseholes who've never actually thought it through. But somebody writing from the perspective of someone who actually hadn't had enough to eat, yet not even thinking to say "maybe pay us more"... that's horrible.
> 
> I've seen various folk saying how it shows how disconnected the outcomes of poverty have become from the reasons for poverty, as if "food insecurity" was some sort of illness that you just caught and employers should be sensitive to, rather than it directly being their fucking fault. That being internalised is terrible but predictable.


seems to be in the nature of a politics where rather than the problem being class as a system, instead the issue is 'classism'.

The 'progressive' wing of neoliberalism.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 14, 2016)

or perhaps thinking that asking for a proper wage would be seen as "Please sir I want some more" to be followed by a swift boot.


----------



## captainmission (Sep 14, 2016)

inva said:


> it's ok, they've 'un published' it.
> 
> 
> Fucking nauseating
> Don't know why they're apologising, it's in line with the other stuff they publish. They should embrace their class politics.



Clearly they need follow through to the logical conclusion of their politics of replacing social solidarity with a radical etiquette guide and decide what's needed is_ greater representation_ of people paid poverty wages in the work place. I'm sure that's something every _woke_ boss can support.



two sheds said:


> or perhaps thinking that asking for a proper wage would be seen as "Please sir I want some more" to be followed by a swift boot.



You'll be shocked to hear that the author, although recognising unions are important, can't strike cos he works for an NGO for low income family who need his services. That low income people might support other low income striking for better pay never occurs to him.


----------



## 8den (Sep 21, 2016)

Owen Jones on C4 news saying and I quote "I don't want to big myself up"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2016)

8den said:


> Owen Jones on C4 news saying and I quote "I don't want to big myself up"



Masturbatory little bubble-ite that he is.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 21, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> Why does everything have to be described as 'toxic' nowadays





Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I blame Britney Spears.



I blame Pat Mills


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 22, 2016)

emanymton said:


> $97, why not just call it $100!
> 
> Anyway sounds like a lot of hippy bollocks.
> 
> ...



Every extra line I read of that got me angrier and angrier. Didn't even get to the end.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2016)

8den said:


> Owen Jones on C4 news saying and I quote "I don't want to big myself up"


his humility is an example to us all


----------



## andysays (Sep 22, 2016)

emanymton said:


> $97, why not just call it $100!
> 
> Anyway sounds like a lot of hippy bollocks.





equationgirl said:


> Just as well I didn't get an invite - the urge to shout 'this is a load of hippy bollocks ' would have been great





ItWillNeverWork said:


> Every extra line I read of that got me angrier and angrier. Didn't even get to the end.



Sounds to me like you could all benefit from at least some of the course content, particularly

Honoring and communicating your needs and wants
Accepting your internal experiences with compassion, not judgment
but maybe we need to find a non-hippy-bollocks way of re-wording it to make it more acceptable


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2016)

yeh i think we need some inner calm people : ommmmmmm:


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 22, 2016)

andysays said:


> Sounds to me like you could all benefit from at least some of the course content, particularly
> 
> Honoring and communicating your needs and wants
> Accepting your internal experiences with compassion, not judgment
> but maybe we need to find a non-hippy-bollocks way of re-wording it to make it more acceptable


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 23, 2016)

Lezard's dropped a ricket recently. Although he has apologised unreservedly.

How on earth is it acceptable for a Guardian columnist to say he wants Jeremy Corbyn assassinated? | EvolvePolitics.com


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> Lezard's dropped a ricket recently. Although he has apologised unreservedly.
> 
> How on earth is it acceptable for a Guardian columnist to say he wants Jeremy Corbyn assassinated? | EvolvePolitics.com


doesn't Laurie Penny lodge with him?


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> doesn't Laurie Penny lodge with him?



Not any more, I don't think.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> Not any more, I don't think.


can't have been that harmonious an arrangement considering their differing views


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> can't have been that harmonious an arrangement considering their differing views



Well, I can't go on Twitter and ask as I'm blocked from that one.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 23, 2016)

Needs pic


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2016)

Er, they smoke rollies. Gross.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 23, 2016)

rollies are great, once you get used to them anything else feels like smoking a pool cue


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2016)

They're minging


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2016)

Could someone do a graph for Paul Mason's  mid-life crisis please - something along the lines of David Yaffe's velocitometer maybe?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2016)

The youth the youth the youth (esp graduates and young professionals) - there's a piece in the next issue of  British Journal of Political Science that shows the youth are now far to the right of thatchers children across all measures of traditionally understood social liberalism - and it was labours lack of challenge to this under blair that has effectively normalised this.

Thatcher’s Children and Blair’s Babies: A trickle-down theory of value change. (pdf)



> To what extent are new generations ‘Thatcherite’? Using British Social Attitudes data for 1985-2012 and applying age-period-cohort (APC) analysis and generalized additive models (GAMs) this paper investigates whether Thatcher’s Children hold more right-authoritarian political values compared to other political generations. We further examine the extent to which the generation that came of age under New Labour – Blair’s Babies – share these
> values. Our findings for generation effects indicate that this political generation is even more right-authoritarian, including with respect to attitudes to redistribution, welfare and crime. We support this view through evidence of cohort effects. Our results show the legacy of Thatcherism for left-right and libertarian-authoritarian values is to be found in its long-term shaping of public opinion through political socialisation.


----------



## inva (Sep 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The youth the youth the youth (esp graduates and young professionals) - there's a piece in the next issue of  British Journal of Political Science that shows the youth are now far to the right of thatchers children across all measures of traditionally understood social liberalism - and it was labours lack of challenge to this under blair that has effectively normalised this.
> 
> Thatcher’s Children and Blair’s Babies: A trickle-down theory of value change. (pdf)


I don't know about the actual result but didn't Owen Smith poll better among younger member/supporters than Corbyn? or did I misremember?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2016)

inva said:


> I don't know about the actual result but didn't Owen Smith poll better among younger member/supporters than Corbyn? or did I misremember?


I'd be surprised at that - healthy poll lead amongst 18-24 year olds before the election. Don't recall any results breakdown yet,


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 26, 2016)

You mean the exit poll from YouGov inva?


----------



## cantsin (Sep 26, 2016)

inva said:


> I don't know about the actual result but didn't Owen Smith poll better among younger member/supporters than Corbyn? or did I misremember?



it was some bollocksy sounding Yougov poll, endlessly quoted by Progress shills etc, not based on actual  ( presumably available ) data


----------



## inva (Sep 26, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> You mean the exit poll from YouGov inva?


actually I didn't, I'm sure I remember something earlier than that but can't find it googling - though I did come across that poll and was about to post myself.

YouGov do warn that the 18-24 category is one of their smallest sample sizes, so maybe not too reliable anyway.

cheers though


----------



## killer b (Sep 26, 2016)

Not sure if it is available is it? It was a secret  ballot...


----------



## inva (Sep 26, 2016)

cantsin said:


> it was some bollocksy sounding Yougov poll, endlessly quoted by Progress shills etc, not based on actual  ( presumably available ) data


I hope for Paul Mason's sake that's the case


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2016)

cantsin said:


> it was some bollocksy sounding Yougov poll, endlessly quoted by Progress shills etc, not based on actual  ( presumably available ) data


Yougov have to make their data available. And they don't do stuff without data. I really don't remember this one.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yougov have to make their data available. And they don't do stuff without data. I really don't remember this one.



sorry.I meant, not based on the actual voting data, which exists, but maybe isnt available yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2016)

cantsin said:


> sorry.I meant, not based on the actual voting data, which exists, but maybe isnt available yet.


Eh? Based on what then? Polling? If so they have to make it availible.

If the actual voting results then all sorts of people are in all sorts of trouble.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Eh? Based on what then?



their own polling data ?


----------



## killer b (Sep 26, 2016)

they don't have the breakdown from the actual vote, cantsin.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2016)

cantsin said:


> their own polling data ?


Which they have to make availible to all - yet it doesn't seem to be anywhere. I really think this is just a misrembering.


----------



## inva (Sep 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Which they have to make availible to all - yet it doesn't seem to be anywhere. I really think this is just a misrembering.


I'm sure I remember it being talked about on a thread here but there's nothing come up in the search results. I might have managed to imagine a poll and a conversation about it, probably all the excitement of the leadership election getting to me


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 26, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> You mean the exit poll from YouGov inva?



The future is generation is clearly a lost cause. Whiny remain-voting Smith supporters. The little shits need to have their ears twisted by their mums. Go and clean your rooms and think about what you fucking voted for. Don't come down for tea until you're ready to apologise.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The youth the youth the youth (esp graduates and young professionals) - there's a piece in the next issue of  British Journal of Political Science that shows the youth are now far to the right of thatchers children across all measures of traditionally understood social liberalism - and it was labours lack of challenge to this under blair that has effectively normalised this.
> 
> Thatcher’s Children and Blair’s Babies: A trickle-down theory of value change. (pdf)


thanks for this - i felt it in my bones to be the case....capitalist realism is a big part of this though...the old "easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism"...still potentially an open door to push on rather than deeply held with conviction ideological beliefs I think


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 26, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The future is generation is clearly a lost cause. Whiny remain-voting Smith supporters. The little shits need to have their ears twisted by their mums. Go and clean your rooms and think about what you fucking voted for. Don't come down for tea until you're ready to apologise.



Oh I dunno, seems to me if the consensus you grow up in is neoliberal, while you're still too young to realise how utterly fucked you are and how much of the talk of "you can succeed if only you believe/try hard enough" is garbage a right-wing trend will develop - but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll stick when reality, the first kid, the barren jobs market, the horrors of the welfare state etc come calling. 

The narrative's up for grabs really, just depends on whose answers come through loudest. As a young liberal/leftie my generation (the 25-39 bracket) was pretty much entirely uninterested in socialism when I was 18, too few trade unionists to even measure on the charts, and now they're polling harder for the Labour left than the 40-59ers. We remain pretty shite as an age bracket mind you, big ideas about voting unconnected to thoughts about rebuilding solidarity unionism etc (God people in their 30s and picket lines, don't get me started), but still.


----------



## killer b (Sep 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The youth the youth the youth (esp graduates and young professionals) - there's a piece in the next issue of  British Journal of Political Science that shows the youth are now far to the right of thatchers children across all measures of traditionally understood social liberalism - and it was labours lack of challenge to this under blair that has effectively normalised this.
> 
> Thatcher’s Children and Blair’s Babies: A trickle-down theory of value change. (pdf)


thanks for this, it's a good read.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 27, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I see Aaron Bastani of Novara Media has changed his mind and no longer supports Brexit. Brave re-assessment of the facts, or Boris Johnson of the left?
> 
> Why I've changed my mind on Brexit



I am not convinved his assessments are necessarily watertight.


Here's todays:



*Aaron Bastani*‏@AaronBastani
Chatting to education activists from 2010: "if Ed Miliband had half the bottle of Corbyn, coalition would have been over within 6 months"


----------



## 8den (Sep 28, 2016)

Owen Jones comparing Corbyn to Trump. 


Can I get a


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2016)

thats a line pusheed by telegraph wankers has been for some time


----------



## J Ed (Oct 1, 2016)

Hillary Clinton: why I'm with her



> 'I want Clinton to win in November. Not just because I’d rather not see the world’s only superpower topple over the edge of political unreason. Not just because she’s clearly a better candidate than Trump — an ageing golden retriever chasing the Democratic ribbon on its own tail would be a better candidate than Trump. I also want Clinton to win because she is a woman and a feminist, even if her feminism is unlike my own. I believe that all else being equal — and in this case it’s not even close — it’s time for a woman to lead the nominally free world.'


----------



## James McFadden (Oct 1, 2016)

"even if her feminism is unlike my own"

my presidential campaign will be intersectional or it will be bullshit


----------



## crossthebreeze (Oct 1, 2016)

She fully supports Hilary the "soft-neoliberal", but is still a little bit anarchist though, all governments are her enemy , but she wants Hilary to be her enemy because she can respect her   Also if you don't see something to celebrate in Hilary you are a misogynist


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Hillary Clinton: why I'm with her



Well slap my bum and call me Sally.

Has she started red-baiting against Russia yet? That's next.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2016)

Ole said:


> Well slap my bum and call me Sally.
> 
> Has she started red-baiting against Russia yet? That's next.


Red?


----------



## James McFadden (Oct 2, 2016)

Ole said:


> Well slap my bum and call me Sally.
> 
> Has she started red-baiting against Russia yet? That's next.


Have I missed something. Doesn't this just say: "well at least she's not as bad as Trump...froth, blah, I'm an anarchist"? Didn't everyone figure this months ago? What took her so long?

eta...sorry...'decades ago'

eta...clearly not 'everybody', I forgot about Trump supporters.


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Red?



The American liberal media has been accusing Trump of sympathising with Communism.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2016)

So Russia is red - red as in traditional targets of red-baiting - that is, socialist/communist/left-wing?


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

That's the American liberal's point of view.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2016)

Ole said:


> That's the American liberal's point of view.


It seemed to be yours too earlier. But, in fact, the US liberals view of russia is not that it presents a threat to their interests because of its left-wing nature is it? Plenty of US liberals actually like Putin - see the Green party goon reffed in your post above. And their deputy leader is even worse.


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It seemed to be yours too earlier. But, in fact, the US liberals view of russia is not that it presents a threat to their interests because of its left-wing nature is it?


Obviously not, but they are cynical enough to weaponise anti-Communism with regards to it anyway.

I didn't think it needed spelling out earlier that *I* didn't actually think Russia was a left-wing state, and that I was only portraying their characterisation of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2016)

Ole said:


> Obviously not, but they are cynical enough to not care about that.
> 
> I didn't think it needed spelling out earlier that *I* didn't actually think Russia was a left-wing state, and that I was only portraying their characterisation of it.


But that's not their characterisation of it at all. Where do they attack Russia for being left wing?


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> But that's not their characterisation of it at all. Where do they attack Russia for being left wing?



That said, for most Americans it's shocking to see an American presidential candidate openly touting authoritarian, *communist Russia*...

I imagine the old time *American Communist Party* is spinning in its collective grave with envy at what Trump is accomplishing.​


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2016)

Ole said:


> That said, for most Americans it's shocking to see an American presidential candidate openly touting authoritarian, *communist Russia*...
> 
> I imagine the old time *American Communist Party* is spinning in its collective grave with envy at what Trump is accomplishing.​


Any more?


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

I don't have time for that now the football's about to start. 

I may come back to this later.


----------



## Ole (Oct 2, 2016)

Putin Trump

To start with, we have here a project/website funded by the Clinton supporting liberal "Progress for USA" PAC - launched by big-bucks Democratic donor Rob Glaser and headed up by the former long-term stalwart/vice president of NPR.

The website's banner:








I could just stop there 

*WHY: AMERICAN VALUES ARE ON THE LINE*

Did you know that Putin was a KGB foreign intelligence officer for 16 years before he went into politics? Or that Putin likes Trump because Trump is “sensible enough to stay out of the way?” Or even how Trump was totally unaware that Russia had already invaded the Ukraine?​Here's a snip from the home page. Count the hammers and sickles.






Next up, a ridiculously long-winded theory about Trump falling into the spell of crypto-Communist Putin.

Trump and Putin: A Love Story - The New Yorker

Putin was less ambivalent about the collapse of the Soviet Union. In 2005, he called it “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the past century.” Although it was Yeltsin who brought Putin to Moscow, Putin has expressed barely concealed contempt for the nineteen-nineties, the Yeltsin era, as a period of unrelieved chaos, theft, and humiliation.​The Dangers of the Putin-Trump Relationship

Rob Glaser is one of the leading left-of-center campaign donors in America. With a fortune gained as an early employee at Microsoft and then as founder of RealNetworks, Glaser has backed causes including the Democracy Alliance and the early political career of Barack Obama. In this current cycle, Glaser is funding a new kind of political effort: a website—PutinTrump.org—intended to highlight the connections between the Republican presidential nominee and Russia’s authoritarian president. PutinTrump.org will launch on September 21.

Glaser and I overlapped at Yale University in the early 1980s. I interviewed him by email about his latest political venture.​As Glenn Greenwald points out, the Democrats have been 'red-baiting' against Jill Stein, Bernie Sanders, Wikileaks and Edward Snowden too.

A New McCarthyism: Greenwald on Clinton Camp's Attempts to Link Trump, Stein & WikiLeaks to Russia | Democracy Now!

Democrats’ Tactic of Accusing Critics of Kremlin Allegiance Has Long, Ugly History in U.S.

What’s Behind Barack Obama’s Ongoing Accommodation of Vladimir Putin?

Despite the fact that Russia ceased long ago to be guided by anything resembling communism, this linking of one’s political adversaries to the Kremlin is such a potent tactic in the U.S. because of decades of Cold War rhetoric about Moscow. *Referring to Putin, Matt Lauer this week asked Trump: “Do you want to be complimented by that former KGB officer?” Denouncing Trump’s praise of Putin, Democratic Rep. Charlie Rangel called the Russian president “a communist leader that’s a potential enemy!”*​
Barely been looking 10 minutes.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2016)

http://jezebel.com/the-team-of-men-behind-rachel-brewson-the-fake-woman-w-1787270300

Something to keep in mind when looking at these commentariat sites.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Ole said:


> Putin Trump
> 
> To start with, we have here a project/website funded by the Clinton supporting liberal "Progress for USA" PAC - launched by big-bucks Democratic donor Rob Glaser and headed up by the former long-term stalwart/vice president of NPR.
> 
> ...


I missed this sunday.

These are all examples of liberals attacking Russia for being Communist or Left-wing?

First one does no such thing.
Second one does no such thing.
Third one does no such thing.
Fourth one does no such thing and only talks about sanders historical pro-cuba statement.
The last one has a democrat rep saying that Putin is a Communist.

5 minutes reading.


----------



## Ole (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I missed this sunday.
> 
> These are all examples of liberals attacking Russia for being Communist or Left-wing?
> 
> ...



Bollocks.

I said they disingenuously characterise it as Communist, and smear their targets by association. You keep on misstating my statements as "attacking Russia for being left-wing".

It is basic red-baiting.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> http://jezebel.com/the-team-of-men-behind-rachel-brewson-the-fake-woman-w-1787270300
> 
> Something to keep in mind when looking at these commentariat sites.


wtf is wrong with people


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> wtf is wrong with people



Fucking astonishing isnt it.


----------



## 8den (Oct 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> wtf is wrong with people



I'm just exhausted reading that. Why go to all that fucking effort.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 5, 2016)

8den said:


> I'm just exhausted reading that. Why go to all that fucking effort.



For the money, from the looks of it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2016)

Robin Ince wants to join in:
“I am the liberal media elite, hear my gardener roar.”


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 5, 2016)

The social media star who flipped to Trump - BBC News

A comrade of mine used to know her a bit back when she was still an activist on the left.

Beware of these guys tbh


----------



## J Ed (Oct 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> The social media star who flipped to Trump - BBC News
> 
> A comrade of mine used to know her a bit back when she was still an activist on the left.
> 
> Beware of these guys tbh



I had no idea she was ever on the left.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I had no idea she was ever on the left.



The 'left'


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 5, 2016)

they always make such a big deal out of it as well, just selling the old birthright for a mess of pottage lads AND HERE IS WHY

nobody cares about yer lack of conviction. You'll always be suspect to your new allies anyway. Have fun etc


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 5, 2016)

'activist.'


----------



## YouSir (Oct 5, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Robin Ince wants to join in:
> “I am the liberal media elite, hear my gardener roar.”



What a pointless thing to write.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> they always make such a big deal out of it as well, just selling the old birthright for a mess of pottage lads AND HERE IS WHY
> 
> nobody cares about yer lack of conviction. You'll always be suspect to your new allies anyway. Have fun etc



Funny how you never hear about the conversion stories from right to left, and it's not because they don't happen.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 11, 2016)

What Does the Future of the Pro-Life Movement Look Like? 

Not strictly commentariat but im not in the least bit surprised this is now a thing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Funny how you never hear about the conversion stories from right to left, and it's not because they don't happen.


Ricky Tomlinson, Matty Blag


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 13, 2016)

I think I just fell off Nicholas Lezard's Christmas card list:

This summer, I've been to Hull and back


----------



## cantsin (Oct 13, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> I think I just fell off Nicholas Lezard's Christmas card list:
> 
> This summer, I've been to Hull and back



does that end as per below, or is there some sly pay wall preventing me from seeing the rest ?

I notice a woman walking along the pavement a few yards ahead of me. She turns to look at me and then, not too fast, she starts running on ahead. She is not dressed for running.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 13, 2016)

cantsin said:


> does that end as per below, or is there some sly pay wall preventing me from seeing the rest ?
> 
> I notice a woman walking along the pavement a few yards ahead of me. She turns to look at me and then, not too fast, she starts running on ahead. She is not dressed for running.



It does end with a running woman, yes.

Why, I don't know.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 17, 2016)

Is your dog’s Halloween costume sexist?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 1, 2016)

Inevitable Laurie Penny on Question Time klaxon.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 2, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Inevitable Laurie Penny on Question Time klaxon.


Has the time come for 2010 nostalgia already?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 2, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Has the time come for 2010 nostalgia already?



Oh has she been on before? I assumed this was a debut...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 2, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Oh has she been on before? I assumed this was a debut...


More a case of



> Laurie...Penny..? ...Oh, Laurie Penny - I think I remember her, didn't she used to be... Erm... Something or other? Back in, I don't know, five, six years ago?



(((That's showbiz)))


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 3, 2016)

Did anyone see Abi Wilkinson copy viral tweets for her 'alt-right manosphere' piece?

Viral tweets begin 09/11/16:


14/11/16: The Indy highlights Siyanda Mohutsiwa's viral tweets: The reason everybody thought Trump would lose

15/11/16: Abi Wilkinson Guardian piece published: We need to talk about the online radicalisation of young, white men | Abi Wilkinson

Twitter beef ensued:


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2016)

Aaron Bastani using a presstv link to EXPOSE a msm #mediablackout



Looks like CasuallyRedBrown in the comments.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2017)

Milo is "secretly quite a sweet, vulnerable person who is gracious to those he considers friends." Laurie Penny


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 3, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Milo is "secretly quite a sweet, vulnerable person who is gracious to those he considers friends." Laurie Penny


You accidentally support a nazi once and suddenly yo-

Urban v's the Commentariat

Okay, you accidentally support several nazis repeatedly and suddenly you're some kind of fuckwit


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Milo is "secretly quite a sweet, vulnerable person who is gracious to those he considers friends." Laurie Penny


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2017)

Apparantly the meeting she was inside at was being picketed outside by anti fascists


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly the meeting she was inside at was being picketed outside by anti fascists



If so, why was our latter day La Passionara not outside with them?

'They shall not pass! (Unless there's a byline in it).'


----------



## LDC (Feb 11, 2017)

Peak commentariat event....

Choose Life, Choose Populism? | Novara Media

Laurie Penny must have been booked already.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2017)

choose losing the plot and having techno-driven utopian rants


----------



## J Ed (Feb 11, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Peak commentariat event....
> 
> Choose Life, Choose Populism? | Novara Media
> 
> Laurie Penny must have been booked already.



Or they could settle for Eleanor instead 

What is Fascism? | Novara Media


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Or they could settle for Eleanor instead
> 
> What is Fascism? | Novara Media


how far did you make it into that video? I like some of novara output but for real....


----------



## J Ed (Feb 11, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> how far did you make it into that video? I like some of novara output but for real....



I didn't press play


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Or they could settle for Eleanor instead



Well, she is an editor with Team Novara


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I didn't press play


I don't lnow what sort of splianing it is but its splaining.


fashsplaining?


----------



## JimW (Feb 11, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I didn't press play


The only winning move is not to play.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 21, 2017)

>read Jack 'Doc' Monroe's standing for election
> go to her twitter feed w/ usual mix of cynicism / low level despondency
> lot's of #whatmakespeoplepoor contributions, from Monroe + followers
> read Jm's comment re:  living in 17 rentals, and only just getting a tiny garden space cos of some book money
> and about her / others experiences @ school, never going on any of the trips
> about not being able invite friends home from school for tea etc etc etc
> v v real stuff, all of it, esp. for the many of us that have been /are living it
> leave the feed, feeling a bit chastened


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2017)

Theisticle said:


> LOL. OJ got Bloodworth riled.






J Ed said:


> Sounds like James Bloodworth is tired of being called scum lol



Bloodworth now coming out as a closet LibDem with no sense of humour!


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2017)

My god: Helen Lewis.

Deep in Macron Country


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 8, 2017)

killer b said:


> My god: Helen Lewis.



WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 8, 2017)

Fucking hell, that makes Penny's stuff look like Tolstoy.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 8, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


>


What's that smell..?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 8, 2017)

self righteous liberal 'humour'. Unlike napalm and victory, I don't love it


----------



## rekil (May 8, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Fucking hell, that makes Penny's stuff look like Tolstoy.


As my mate said to me when I tried to run a sitcom idea past him many many years ago - "The first rule of comedy, you have to be funny."


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 8, 2017)

copliker said:


> As my mate said to me when I tried to run a sitcom idea past him many many years ago - "The first rule of comedy, you have to be funny."


Second rule - get Geoffrey Palmer


----------



## rekil (May 8, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Second rule - get Geoffrey Palmer


I'm a doctor and I want my sausages.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 8, 2017)

copliker said:


> I'm a doctor and I want my sausages.


Very few sitcoms could not be improved by including this


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 9, 2017)

One for the veterans of the OG Callinocos/Penny handbags & Commenting on the Commentariat threads, when I saw that Oor Malky had a new book coming out I was a bit  until I saw the title, and then I was more 

(Fortunately the subtitle mitigates things slightly.)


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> One for the veterans of the OG Callinocos/Penny handbags & Commenting on the Commentariat threads, when I saw that Oor Malky had a new book coming out I was a bit  until I saw the title, and then I was more
> 
> (Fortunately the subtitle mitigates things slightly.)


Maybe it's just me but that link doesn't seem to work, think you might have some stuff at the end. Looks great anyway.



> Gripping, mercilessly argued, deeply informed, and moving fluidly between critical theory, political policy, and pop culture, _Kids These Days _will wake you up, make you angry, and change how you see your place in the world. This is essential reading-not only for Millennials, but for anyone ready to take a hard look at how we got here and where we're headed if we don't change course fast.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Maybe it's just me but that link doesn't seem to work, think you might have some stuff at the end. Looks great anyway.


Cheers - have fixed.


----------



## Bakunin (May 10, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Fucking hell, that makes Penny's stuff look like Tolstoy.



And this is even worse:

Simon Danczuk quits Labour because he's finally had enough of Jeremy Corbyn's antics


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 10, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't lnow what sort of splianing it is but its splaining.
> 
> 
> fashsplaining?



Poshsplaining. 

Must be the red hair and the shit politics.


----------



## rekil (May 10, 2017)

Absolutely delighted that Urban75 poster and revolutionary socialist from the autonomist tradition Laurie Penny still has _it_. Is this an ironic RT? I can't tell anymore.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 30, 2017)




----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 30, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


>



I saw that and was impressed she managed to be wrong in about five different ways in a single tweet. I can't even be bothered to analyse all the ways - it's just shite.


----------



## killer b (Jun 30, 2017)

Ha, I was just coming here to post that. the comments are pretty glorious.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 30, 2017)

killer b said:


> Ha, I was just coming here to post that. the comments are pretty glorious.


----------



## killer b (Jun 30, 2017)

'You look absurd'


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 30, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


>



Iirc it was her holiday. "Life".


----------



## J Ed (Jun 30, 2017)

Nothing says disadvantage like taking a minimum wage job to write about it rather than to you know... survive.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 30, 2017)

Didn't Polly send her kids to private school? Was that before or after the min wage job?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 30, 2017)

Who hates ordinary people more - the staff at the Spectator or the New Statesman?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 30, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Who hates ordinary people more - the staff at the Spectator or the New Statesman?


probs the latter, as the former have the excuse that they've probably never consorted with them and some people at the New Statesman probably once spoke to a pov


----------



## J Ed (Jun 30, 2017)

I love how much these people are obviously actually wound up by being called slugs and Jolyons. They really, really hate it.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 30, 2017)

They just want to swoon over pictures of Trudeau and Macron while talking about the inevitability of union bashing, privatisation and endless war in peace. Then these horrible kids come along and basically have them summed up exactly.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 30, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Who hates ordinary people more - the staff at the Spectator or the New Statesman?


I honestly get the two mixed up on a regular basis. People tweet links to NS articles and I remember them as being from the Spectator, or vice versa. I'm not even being satirical.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 30, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I love how much these people are obviously actually wound up by being called slugs and Jolyons. They really, really hate it.


I know a Jolyon in real life. He used to work for the Labour party and quit when Corbyn got in


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 30, 2017)

J Ed said:


> They just want to swoon over pictures of Trudeau and Macron while talking about the inevitability of union bashing, privatisation and endless war in peace. Then these horrible kids come along and basically have them summed up exactly.


Speaking of Macron: My thoughts are 'too complex' for journalists, says Emmanuel Macron


----------



## emanymton (Jun 30, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Speaking of Macron: My thoughts are 'too complex' for journalists, says Emmanuel Macron


To be fair the thoughts of a hamster are probably too complex for most journalists.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 1, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> One for the veterans of the OG Callinocos/Penny handbags & Commenting on the Commentariat threads, when I saw that Oor Malky had a new book coming out I was a bit  until I saw the title, and then I was more
> 
> (Fortunately the subtitle mitigates things slightly.)


Christ, that sounds like a massive whingefest about why the milennials can't have nice things, from the summary. I did wonder what he had been up to though...


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2017)

Oh gosh. Toynbee joined in to that Helen lewis clusterfuck last night - this shit writes itself...


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2017)

Click through for an avalanche of on point replies.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2017)

Why would someone who is best known for splitting from Labour say that?


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2017)

I don't know. Maybe she's trolling?


----------



## The Boy (Jul 1, 2017)

From now on, "Where is *your* book on [subject]?" will be my stock response to anyone who disagrees with me on anything.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2017)

Then demand they eat the book, if they've written one.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 1, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I know a Jolyon in real life. He used to work for the Labour party and quit when Corbyn got in



Have known of him for a  long time, mainly as a genuinely good Dj - seems he's properly lost it, and since everyone started RTing his hilarious, ever upwardly adjusted ' Lab are headed for 28 / 30 / 32 / 34 % etc  poll share " tweets, it seems he's now quit " politics "/ changed his twitter handle etc ( I'm blocked , so can't link ) ?

I gather he's not the total w*nker in real life that he appears to be, in a political / soc media context ...but , whatever, just hope he / his sort never get near the LP again

Edit : unless yr mates with Maugham QC ?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2017)




----------



## The Pale King (Jul 3, 2017)

J Ed said:


>




What's his ideal - fascism? The collapsing of politics into pure management? A fatherly autocrat?


----------



## mather (Jul 3, 2017)

The Pale King said:


> The collapsing of politics into pure management?



The logical end result of liberal capitalism.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 8, 2017)

can't remember if Basto is classed commentariat or not...but not a great 24hrs for the man ....just don't get wtf he thought he was doing re: Galloway, on many levels ....


----------



## LDC (Jul 16, 2017)

I was just coming here to ask wtf was going on with that? There's a boycott Novara thing going on, what's the (short) story?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 16, 2017)

Short version, Aaron Bastani interviewed with George Galloway and got hammered for associating with a rape apologist, then messed up further by pretending he didn't know Galloway was persona non grata when prior Tweets had suggested otherwise. He's since apologised, but it went ballistic on social media and dredged up a bunch of other stuff (not best gone into here).

It's ended up with Novara putting out a new editorial and complaints code and more broadly, discussion in those circles about callout culture and abuse on social media. Plus lots of people still angry etc.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

The 'bunch of other stuff' isn't being gone into anywhere that I've been able to find, Just dark mutterings about sexual violence and 'platforming' abusers - the Galloway stuff doesn't seem to be central to the boycott, but what _is_ central is pretty much absent from the discussion, apart from for about 7 people in London who know each other and talk in code.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 16, 2017)

Dave Gilmour's son gets a mention.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 16, 2017)

killer b said:


> The 'bunch of other stuff' isn't being gone into anywhere that I've been able to find, Just dark mutterings.



The above is all you're getting from me. I assume you're not asking people to air their personal and private traumas on urban75 for the sake of giving online rubberneckers an inside track?


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

Nothing to do with rubbernecking - there's a public call for people to boycott a left wing media organisation, and an attempt to destroy it's reputation on the basis of something that no-one is prepared to talk about. That's actually mad.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 16, 2017)

See the second par of my previous post. I'm not personally in favour of a boycott, and I agree that public boycott calls without evidence the public can base decisions on aren't likely to get very far.

That said, the people calling for it are mostly talking to their friends and trying to pressure people they know, not justifying themselves to you. It's worth remembering that for lots of people Twitter manifests more as a sort of semi-public diary their mates can read than as a place where they have to publicly defend, evidence and justify every statement they make, which before you start I agree is a confusing and often difficult perspective to work with, but it's often where we're at.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

I don't think they're just talking to their mates - the whole point of a hashtag is to get whatever it is you're talking about heard by people outside your bubble.

Either way, it is a public platform that this trashing is being conducted on, and i think it's reasonable enough for people to wonder what the fuck is going on without being accused of rubbernecking.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 16, 2017)

Hashtags are used for any number of reasons, and yes no doubt they hoped other people would join them but that's not the same thing as hoping that people you don't know will weigh in asking you to relive the traumas prompting the outburst. They are primarily talking to their communities, not to you. I didn't accuse, I asked to clarify.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

'Clarify'. Gotcha.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

_Can i just clarify whether you've stopped beating your wife?_


----------



## lazythursday (Jul 16, 2017)

I've been annoyed by this as well - it seems the Galloway stupidity (which I think can be forgiven) is being conflated with some murkier but completely impenetrable allegations of sexual abuse from someone associated, or previously associated with Novara, and the fact that some people wrote a letter defending this person ('the B10'). And plus others who think Novara is 'laddish' and and therefore a bad thing. I think if people are going to trash the site's reputation they should be clear what the accusations are otherwise it comes across like the Galloway mistake is being used to further some kind of vendetta.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 16, 2017)

There's a list of demands for the boycott at the link - they seem fairly sensible, though not formally written, and Novara have probably met some of them by publishing their code of conduct etc.  I don't think anyone really needs to know the specifics, because they aren't asking for action to be taken on a specific case.  I don't really know the details, but I'm not surprised if i) a accusations of sexual violence haven't been taken seriously or ii) "radical" media types might tend to gloss over unpleasant facts about the "radical" media/academic/prominent activist types they hang out with/work with/depend on to keep their projects growing.


----------



## lazythursday (Jul 16, 2017)

I struggle to get past the bit about 'And while you're boycotting remind them to drop their racist poster boy Paul Mason', tbh. Smacks of the kind of left activism that really turns me off.

I dunno, if there's genuinely been tolerance of sexual misconduct then that's appalling, and I'd expect Novara to act on that, but then also, if I was to set up a politics website I wouldn't expect to have to be spending time policing the behaviour of contributors, and having to sit in judgement on allegations etc, perhaps naively. I dunno, it seems to me that Novara is one of the more successful and interesting of the left new media bubble (despite Bastani being supremely irritating) and it saddens me to see it being trashed, so I'd like to understand what Novara has actually done wrong, and why the steps taken / apology are not seen as good enough.


----------



## Ole (Jul 16, 2017)

The person who wrote that list of demands needs professional medical help immediately. She is suicidal and crying out for help.

Edit: removed the tweets off here but you can see what I'm talking about on her page.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 16, 2017)

Fucking hell, I didn't see all that - I'd just seen the demands linked to.  Probably best not spreading it on here though.  Does anyone know her irl or interact with her on social media enough to check that she's safe?


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

Hmm, that actually _is_  rubbernecking...


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 16, 2017)

Yes i think it shouldn't be linked to on here.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 16, 2017)

Yes take that down please, imv it's not really appropriate to put up on a random message board for people to goggle over even _if _the person has put it up on Twitter.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 16, 2017)

There's a statement here which gives a bit more background from the Novara side, including posting an interview with a man in a red balaclava who may be familiar to some here:
Statement | Novara Media

I don't know the ins and outs about the other stuff but people can track back through the twitter user's account quoted above for some previous tweets which allege abuse by an un-named someone allegedly connected to Novara.

What confuses me is that I, someone who is basically just an office worker and parent these days, knew about the problems with red balaclava man and George Galloway, whereas Novara and Aaron Bastani who seem to be magnetically linked to the London left activist scene didn't.

More generally, everyone seems to agree that the code of conduct and complaints procedure are good things. But not enough for some. I think it's dumb that Bastani seems to have blocked so many people on twitter.


----------



## Ole (Jul 16, 2017)

Rob Ray said:


> Yes take that down please, imv it's not really appropriate to put up on a random message board for people to goggle over even _if _the person has put it up on Twitter.



I thought it was appropriate, but democracy rules.


----------



## LDC (Jul 16, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There's a statement here which gives a bit more background from the Novara side, including posting an interview with a man in a red balaclava who may be familiar to some here



That red balaclava interview was totally bonkers - even leaving aside any other issues.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 16, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That red balaclava interview was totally bonkers - even leaving aside any other issues.



One simply does not need to do the washing up in a balaclava. A hoodie and a scarf over the face will suffice.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 16, 2017)

Also it seems trivial to mention it but Novara's video and audio output has become worse politically as it has improved in technical quality. 

It was always a bit wonkish but it is essentially all about the Labour Party now.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 16, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also it seems trivial to mention it but Novara's video and audio output has become worse politically as it has improved in technical quality.
> 
> It was always a bit wonkish but it is essentially all about the Labour Party now.



true...v easy to get sucked down that path ( probably cul de sac, time will tell) at present 

Full Auto Lux Comm seems a long time ago now *

(tho i think AB has FULC book out next year, so maybe some diversion from the path of Corbo then )


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2017)

Does anyone have a link to the balaclava vid?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jul 16, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also it seems trivial to mention it but Novara's video and audio output has become worse politically as it has improved in technical quality.
> 
> It was always a bit wonkish but it is essentially all about the Labour Party now.



Fickle innit? Their whole politics is based on academia and the student milieu.

Once the money dries up or they have to interact with people who aren't in university or haven't had the opportunity, it's nothing but hot air.

(fully acknowledging that i say that as a university dropout...)


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jul 16, 2017)

cantsin said:


> true...v easy to get sucked down that path ( probably cul de sac, time will tell) at present
> 
> Full Auto Lux Comm seems a long time ago now *
> 
> (tho i think AB has FULC book out next year, so maybe some diversion from the path of Corbo then )



Was just recycled left accelerationism.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Does anyone have a link to the balaclava vid?


Think they've deleted it now - if it's the one I'm thinking of it was someone who'd just got back from fighting Isis in Syria talking about rojava, while wearing a balaclava and doing the washing up.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 16, 2017)

dialectician said:


> Fickle innit? Their whole politics is based on academia and the student milieu.
> 
> Once the money dries up or they have to interact with people who aren't in university or haven't had the opportunity, it's nothing but hot air.
> 
> (fully acknowledging that i say that as a university dropout...)



AB and Zarb ( if he's counted as Novara ) seem less like straight up posh student types than most other prominent young meejah lefties tbf


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 16, 2017)

killer b said:


> Think they've deleted it now - if it's the one I'm thinking of it was someone who'd just got back from fighting Isis in Syria talking about rojava, while wearing a balaclava and doing the washing up.



Yes exactly, interspersed with footage (nicked from someone else, dunno?) from Rojava. It didn't say very much iirc. There was some stuff about people expecting to die and then it being surprise when you don't, which lead on to a few sentences about how they do funerals/martyrs. I would guess that the whole thing was about 4 or 5 minutes tops.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jul 16, 2017)

lazythursday said:


> I struggle to get past the bit about 'And while you're boycotting remind them to drop their racist poster boy Paul Mason', tbh. Smacks of the kind of left activism that really turns me off.
> 
> I dunno, if there's genuinely been tolerance of sexual misconduct then that's appalling, and I'd expect Novara to act on that, but then also, if I was to set up a politics website I wouldn't expect to have to be spending time policing the behaviour of contributors, and having to sit in judgement on allegations etc, perhaps naively. I dunno, it seems to me that Novara is one of the more successful and interesting of the left new media bubble (despite Bastani being supremely irritating) and it saddens me to see it being trashed, so I'd like to understand what Novara has actually done wrong, and why the steps taken / apology are not seen as good enough.



Mason is shit though.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 17, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That red balaclava interview was totally bonkers - even leaving aside any other issues.


That interview appears to be with the same person we were talking about before who was kicked out of the AF for a number of serious sexual assaults - the one who was doing security for the Vanessa Beeley meeting at the marx memorial library. I knew it would be as soon as i heard about this.  

I wonder if he'll come back and start posting here again.


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2017)

ah yes. was wondering if that was what you were getting at.


----------



## LDC (Jul 17, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> That interview appears to be with the same person we were talking about before who was kicked out of the AF for a number of serious sexual assaults - the one who was doing security for the Vanessa Beeley meeting at the marx memorial library. I knew it would be as soon as i heard about this.
> 
> I wonder if he'll come back and start posting here again.



Yeah, was just about to say I thought that might be the case. What a nasty fucking shit-politics prick.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 17, 2017)

dialectician said:


> Mason is shit though.



whats the 'racist poster boy' bit about though ?


----------



## LDC (Jul 17, 2017)

cantsin said:


> whats the 'racist poster boy' bit about though ?



DON'T QUESTION YOU APOLOGIST FOR RACISM.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 17, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> DON'T QUESTION YOU APOLOGIST FOR RACISM.





can anyone actually give any pointers on this one ? ( have googled)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 17, 2017)

cantsin said:


> can anyone actually give any pointers on this one ? ( have googled)



Not exactly but I think it relates to Mason's recent pronouncements on immigration post Brexit.


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2017)

Presume it's because of things Mason has written on free movement.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 17, 2017)

ah right, thanks both


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2017)

this I think is the most contentious article (there may be others)
We can escape Brexit doom with one small tweak to free movement


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 17, 2017)

[part of post removed - decided the internet didn't need more commentary on the situation]

I've felt for a while that Bastani in particular needed a check on him, and am glad that's happened and some processes been put in place. I doubt it will be the last time he needs it.

Frankly I think it is pretty bad (though unsurprising) that Novara is owned outright by Bastani and I've always felt that would lead to trouble at some point. I think it's a real shame that people haven't taken this opportunity to bring up the issue of organisational structure and ownership. It's boring. I know it's boring. I watch people's eyes fucking glaze over when I mention structure. But if we never talk about who owns what, what kind of politics are we involved in?


----------



## rekil (Jul 17, 2017)

Yucky.



After all that education and brand building he allows himself and his org to be pulled into this toxic loon's orbit.


----------



## mather (Jul 17, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Not exactly but I think it relates to Mason's recent pronouncements on immigration post Brexit.



Mason and his politics are shit for a whole host of reasons but racism isn't one of them for Christ's sake. Just shows you how far gone and crazy some on the left have become where unless you're 100% in favour of open borders you're racist, no better than the BNP. It really is like some on the left want to live up to the loony left stereotype that those on the right cast them as and shows how toxic the influence of identity politics really is.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 17, 2017)

mather said:


> Mason and his politics are shit for a whole host of reasons but racism isn't one of them for Christ's sake. Just shows you how far gone and crazy some on the left have become where unless you're 100% in favour of open borders you're racist, no better than the BNP. It really is like some on the left want to live up to the loony left stereotype that those on the right cast them as and shows how toxic the influence of identity politics really is.



I agree but I think there's a risk of quoting the craziest stuff out there on this thread. I think Mason has lost a lot of respect from people but most of them don't think he's racist.


----------



## mather (Jul 17, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I agree but I think there's a risk of quoting the craziest stuff out there on this thread. I think Mason has lost a lot of respect from people but most of them don't think he's racist.



I agree and there is a lot of real stuff to go on if you want to criticise Mason, not least that disgusting comment he made about the lads from up North who will steal your bike, but no with these twats that is all ok but not the fact that he doesn't support open borders.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 18, 2017)

mather said:


> I agree and there is a lot of real stuff to go on if you want to criticise Mason, not least that disgusting comment he made about the lads from up North who will steal your bike,


What a sexist bastard.


----------



## mather (Jul 18, 2017)

19force8 said:


> What a sexist bastard.



No.

Anti working class snobbery.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 18, 2017)

copliker said:


> Yucky.
> 
> View attachment 111503
> 
> After all that education and brand building he allows himself and his org to be pulled into this toxic loon's orbit.


Is Galloway even a proper loon, or just a chancer who spouts shite to keep the Gorgeous George show on the road?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Is Galloway even a proper loon, or just a chancer who spouts shite to keep the Gorgeous George show on the road?


He's both - but underneath of course he's an old school sexist socially conservative casually red type. They always are.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 19, 2017)

Why is the NS generally and Lewis in particular so obsessed with trans people?

Is Jeremy Corbyn right that trans people should be allowed to self-identify their gender?

Actually this issue is like catnip for them, a chance to attack trans people and Corbyn at the same time. How could they resist?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 19, 2017)

and where is your book on trans issues J Ed?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> and where is your book on trans issues J Ed?



Just asking questions: Are 'trans'women' actually lizards? by J Ed


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Why is the NS generally and Lewis in particular so obsessed with trans people?
> 
> Is Jeremy Corbyn right that trans people should be allowed to self-identify their gender?
> 
> Actually this issue is like catnip for them, a chance to attack trans people and Corbyn at the same time. How could they resist?


Well now let's be fair. They're fine with Proper Transexuals. It's those Transgenders who are a problem.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 19, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well now let's be fair. They're fine with Proper Transexuals. It's those Transgenders who are a problem.



Honestly I don't understand the ins and outs of trans related issues, I probably should. I've just picked up on how so many of these neoliberal feminists, coincidentally almost always those who attack the Labour leadership from the right through publications like the New Statesman or groupings like Progress, seem to be absolutely obsessed with pushing back against social advances in this area.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Honestly I don't understand the ins and outs of trans related issues, I probably should. I've just picked up on how so many of these neoliberal feminists, coincidentally almost always those who attack the Labour leadership from the right through publications like the New Statesman or groupings like Progress, seem to be absolutely obsessed with pushing back against social advances in this area.


Sorry, I was being a bit sarcastic there - I think it's absolutely typical liberal behaviour to say "well of course we support the basic idea of X but there are good X and bad X who take it too far" and those are the same people who'd be soft left at the same time. (Spectator column in a decade of course.)


----------



## The Pale King (Jul 20, 2017)

Yeah the fixation is clearly disproportionate to the case - they talk about bathroom access issues more than U.S Republicans.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jul 20, 2017)

mather said:


> Mason and his politics are shit for a whole host of reasons but racism isn't one of them for Christ's sake. Just shows you how far gone and crazy some on the left have become where unless you're 100% in favour of open borders you're racist, no better than the BNP. It really is like some on the left want to live up to the loony left stereotype that those on the right cast them as and shows how toxic the influence of identity politics really is.



I dunno man last year he said something to the effect that coloured people are racially conscious and that gives them an advantage over white w/c and marginalised, which just reads like the white mans identity politics to me (no better than the coloured bourgeois radicals, and in the rights hands utterly reactionary.)

Like I've had it better than most but being racially conscious isn't (and I'd probably be reprimanded for saying this) something I take pride in, it's fucking shit to be honest. always second guessing.

But then again disability complicates my attitudes towards race which has always been a lacuna in more traditional antiracist circles where there might be more cultural pride.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2017)

dialectician said:


> I dunno man last year he said something to the effect that coloured people are racially conscious and that gives them an advantage over white w/c and marginalised, which just reads like the white mans identity politics to me (no better than the coloured bourgeois radicals, and in the rights hands utterly reactionary.)



Did he? I bet he didn't.


----------



## lazythursday (Jul 20, 2017)

I vaguely remember this and I think he was making the point that the continuing experience of racism had galvanised community-based BME groups and had helped them to achieve things through collective action, whereas many marginalised white working class communities had lost those collective bonds, especially through the decline of traditional industries and the labour movement. It was just a bit of historical analysis, not an argument for identity politics moving forward.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2017)

I need to see it. And i reckon the accusation is simply on the 'free movement' lie.


----------



## lazythursday (Jul 20, 2017)

This isn't what I thought I remembered though it has a similar line of argument, I suspect it's what dialectician is referring to The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jul 20, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Did he? I bet he didn't.





> It was not always the case that ethnic-minority children did better than white English ones, but the reason why some of them do now is pretty obvious: their problem – racism – is defined; their language skills tend to be well-developed; their culture is one of aspiration; they have social and religious institutions that promote cohesion.



I'm totally clocking where this is going...

The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason

I still wouldn't call him a racist though.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2017)

dialectician said:


> I'm totally clocking where this is going...
> 
> The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason
> 
> I still wouldn't call him a racist though.


Ta - that's def not where the racist accusations are coming from thought is it?

Mason is out of control. He's literally taking a bite of this a bite of that, ooh novara puff me up and i'll do you. It's squalid.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2017)

I susspose i'll stab corbyn in the back, but if _you _stab corbyn in the back the chance for post-capitalism will pass you by.


----------



## killer b (Jul 20, 2017)

He's just called Mad Paul in this house.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2017)

That piece is appalling in it's nearly groped  insight and it's 20 years inside ignorance.


----------



## captainmission (Jul 21, 2017)

cantsin said:


> can anyone actually give any pointers on this one ? ( have googled)



A friend sent me this recently on Mason's supposed racism - Roundtable on Social Democracy, Borders, and Novara Media

It seems to come down to the fact Mason implied that migration can have an impact on wages- which is definitely racist, and it doesn't. Apart from when it does, but that's only short term and shut you up you monster!


----------



## J Ed (Jul 21, 2017)

captainmission said:


> A friend sent me this recently on Mason's supposed racism - Roundtable on Social Democracy, Borders, and Novara Media
> 
> It seems to come down to the fact Mason implied that migration can have an impact on wages- which is definitely racist, and it doesn't. Apart from when it does, but that's only short term and shut you up you monster!



Classic vampire castling


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 21, 2017)

captainmission said:


> A friend sent me this recently on Mason's supposed racism - Roundtable on Social Democracy, Borders, and Novara Media
> 
> It seems to come down to the fact Mason implied that migration can have an impact on wages- which is definitely racist, and it doesn't. Apart from when it does, but that's only short term and shut you up you monster!


Jesus that's fucking crap from start to finish. But just one point I want to pick up on



			
				ANGELA MITROPOULOS said:
			
		

> The first is the claim that migrants bring down wages or drive up unemployment, implicit in Mason‘s argument that is it necessary to “meets the objections of low-paid workers to wage suppression” with the suspension of freedom of movement


That _freedom of movement_ under capitalism is a fucking fiction!

To talk as if I have the same freedom to immigrate within the EU as someone who's been working a sub-minimum wage job for the last few years or as someone of Romany heritage is frankly disgusting.

Really I can't believe that this has so be said to anyone even slightly left of centre. I mean once upon a time even left liberals would understand that just because something is permitted legally that the _freedom_ to benefit from that legal right is nothing without the ability to use it.


----------



## killer b (Jul 22, 2017)

Did anyone manage more than 30 seconds of Mad Paul's shit play on BBC2 tonight? Horrifying.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 23, 2017)

killer b said:


> Did anyone manage more than 30 seconds of Mad Paul's shit play on BBC2 tonight? Horrifying.



No, I assumed it would be bad and that if it was anything else I would hear about it...


----------



## brogdale (Jul 23, 2017)

killer b said:


> Did anyone manage more than 30 seconds of Mad Paul's shit play on BBC2 tonight? Horrifying.


Yes, I watched the whole thing...regrettably.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 23, 2017)

BA is right, Mason is out of control these days. Just so incohernet. Remember how he was doing the progressive alliance stuff before the election?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 23, 2017)

J Ed said:


> BA is right, Mason is out of control these days. Just so incohernet. Remember how he was doing the progressive alliance stuff before the election?


Having watched the thing, I'd say worse than 'out of control'.
Downright counter-productive.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2017)

J Ed said:


> BA is right, Mason is out of control these days. Just so incohernet. Remember how he was doing the progressive alliance stuff before the election?


----------



## cantsin (Jul 23, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Yes, I watched the whole thing...regrettably.



be totally honest...some of it was kind of stirring for Beeb 2 on a sat night


----------



## cantsin (Jul 23, 2017)

( tho tonights Accidental Anarchist ( after possibly one too many) , BBC4, was really good from what I saw


----------



## ska invita (Jul 23, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> To talk as if I have the same freedom to immigrate within the EU as someone who's been working a sub-minimum wage job for the last few years or as someone of Romany heritage is frankly disgusting
> .


many poor people do emigrate within the eu... several members of my close family in fact. It would be interesting to see some stats about wealth levels of people who leave their country of birth to live(aka work) in other eu countries. Id expect a lot more people from below average wealth do it than above average.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 24, 2017)

ska invita said:


> many poor people do emigrate within the eu... several members of my close family in fact. It would be interesting to see some stats about wealth levels of people who leave their country of birth to live(aka work) in other eu countries. Id expect a lot more people from below average wealth do it than above average.


Even if that is true it in no way alters my point. Are you seriously trying to argue against the fact that the _freedom_ of movement of people is bound up with class (and race, gender, etc)?

I imagine that quite a few Romany people have emigrated from Hungary (or at least tried to) due to their persecution - is that _freedom of movement_?

The fact that a such a point is even under dispute is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, 50 years even liberals would accept that real freedoms people have are utterly bound up with their material conditions. Now that appears to be some crazy hypothesis.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 24, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Even if that is true it in no way alters my point. Are you seriously trying to argue against the fact that the _freedom_ of movement of people is bound up with class (and race, gender, etc)?
> 
> I imagine that quite a few Romany people have emigrated from Hungary (or at least tried to) due to their persecution - is that _freedom of movement_?
> 
> The fact that a such a point is even under dispute is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, 50 years even liberals would accept that real freedoms people have are utterly bound up with their material conditions. Now that appears to be some crazy hypothesis.


But come on now, no freedom is absolute. Having the current relatively open borders still gives relatively more freedom to even the poorest in Hungary than if the borders were impermeable. If it would make you happier we could say 'relative freedom of movement' every time we refer to it, but I feel that can be implied really - all freedom is relative. Closing the borders so you could no longer catch a (actually pretty cheap) bus from Budapest to London without going through some difficult visa process would still reduce the ability of poorer Hungarians to move around, wouldn't it? As for the push factors, like racism in Hungary, of course it's not 'freedom' in any absolute sense to feel pushed out of your country, but it's still relative freedom compared to feeling appalling racism against you in your home country and *not* being able to move away from it.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 25, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Even if that is true it in no way alters my point. Are you seriously trying to argue against the fact that the _freedom_ of movement of people is bound up with class (and race, gender, etc)?
> 
> I imagine that quite a few Romany people have emigrated from Hungary (or at least tried to) due to their persecution - is that _freedom of movement_?
> 
> The fact that a such a point is even under dispute is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, 50 years even liberals would accept that real freedoms people have are utterly bound up with their material conditions. Now that appears to be some crazy hypothesis.


the persecution of Romany people is racism...deeply embedded racism.
What point _exactly_ are you making about "freedom of movement"?

Your post sounded to me like it was suggesting poorer people can't move as much, hence my response that its the poorest that usually try their luck with emigration much more than wealthier people.

Emigrating because of poverty or persecution, not because you want to, is a tragedy, but in a way its nothing to do with visa-free international border crossing - people have been doing that, and are doing that anyway, whether they are legally allowed to or not! See several million migrants from north africa and the middle east for a current example...or my dad for an example from the communist era. For many of those who lived behind the iron curtain the ability to travel and settle across europe freely is still nothing short of a miracle that no one thought they would see in their lifetimes. I remember the first time i drove across the east german border with a relative and they burst into tears!

It sounds to me like you are making a semantic point about the use of "freedom" within the expression "freedom of movement". "Inter-european Visa-free movement" is more accurate.,,,not sure if that changes the point you are making.


----------



## mather (Jul 25, 2017)

ska invita said:


> Your post sounded to me like it was suggesting poorer people can't move as much, hence my response that its the poorest that usually try their luck with emigration much more than wealthier people.



That is not quite right, the poorest cannot emigrate as they would struggle to pay for the air fare and the initial costs (rent and food money while you look for a job) involved in starting a new life in a different country. Those who don't emigrate are either at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder and cannot afford to emigrate or are comfortable and rich enough that they don't need to. It is usually those who work and earn enough to get by but don't earn enough to fulfil their ambitions in life who emigrate. 

I literally couldn't afford to move to another country even if I wanted to, I'd need to save a few grand for that and that is money I literally don't have at the moment.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 25, 2017)

mather said:


> That is not quite right, the poorest cannot emigrate as they would struggle to pay for the air fare and the initial costs (rent and food money while you look for a job) involved in starting a new life in a different country. Those who don't emigrate are either at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder and cannot afford to emigrate or are comfortable and rich enough that they don't need to. It is usually those who work and earn enough to get by but don't earn enough to fulfil their ambitions in life who emigrate.
> 
> I literally couldn't afford to move to another country even if I wanted to, I'd need to save a few grand for that and that is money I literally don't have at the moment.


go to victoria coach station, see people pull up off an international bus, get off the bus....and then sleep around victoria in the parks...when you're desperate you try all kinds. Sometimes one person goes ahead, gets a little set up and calls back to friends/family once they know theres a job there. People recruit internationally. All kinds of things go down. People who reached the jungle in calais have trod across continents with some meager money. or on another level young people from spain - far from rich, but still travel to cities beyond spain for any shit job. Share rooms etc.

You dont need much money to make the journey, but the hardship comes when you get there. Like i said in a post above, id love to see stats, as my experience tells me more poorer people emigrate than richer. when you've got wealth you can put down roots and settle ..more holidays, second homes, but emigrating isn't particularly necessary.

im not sure what you mean by "fulfilling life ambitions" as a motive. So many people in my family - young and old - have emigrated at different times...people move to make a little money, send it home, eek out a life. Going to do (shit) jobs in other countries is no life ambition.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 26, 2017)

mather said:


> I literally couldn't afford to move to another country even if I wanted to,



If you didn't mind waiting for days freezing in a car park, rattling around in the pitch dark back of a truck, getting out by the side of some random road where you don't speak the language and most people hate you on sight, and you had to beg or steal to eat because nobody would give you a job and the people who brought you stole all your money .. you could afford to move overseas.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 26, 2017)

lazythursday said:


> This isn't what I thought I remembered though it has a similar line of argument, I suspect it's what dialectician is referring to The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason



nothing wrong with that piece imo


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 26, 2017)

ska invita said:


> the persecution of Romany people is racism...deeply embedded racism.


Yes, precisely. 


ska invita said:


> What point _exactly_ are you making about "freedom of movement"?
> 
> Your post sounded to me like it was suggesting poorer people can't move as much, hence my response that its the poorest that usually try their luck with emigration much more than wealthier people.


No my point is extremely simple, so simply in fact that I find it amazing that anyone who considers themselves a social democrat let alone a socialist and/or communist could not get it. 

Under capitalism the "freedoms" people have are inseparable from their material conditions, despite what liberals would like to believe. Individuals do not all have the same "freedom of movement" anymore than they have the same "freedom of speech", those "freedoms" depend on their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and _class_. Seriously this is basic stuff, social democracy 101, the fact that some progressives find it hard to grasp, or even outright reject it, perfectly illustrates the point I was making.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 26, 2017)

And then we have the fact that the EU is using eastern europe as an ultra low wage platform whilst simultaneously subsiding capital to do so and attacking the social and welfare structures that might soften the blows for its victims - effectively leaving many workers no option but to be forced out to higher wage economies to support their families and dependents, thereby bringing down the wages there closer to the one they were forced to flee from. That's what free movement means to the EU - free movement meaning the same as free labour - i.e the _dull compulsion of economic relations _presented as _choice_.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 26, 2017)

Yep, was going to get onto that next.

It's crazy for us as social democrats/socialist/communists to accept the crap the the neo-liberal EU is pushing as _freedom. _We need to make our own "freedoms" (though not very keen on that terminology really).


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 26, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Individuals do not all have the same "freedom of movement" anymore than they have the same "freedom of speech", those "freedoms" depend on their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and _class_.


But adding nationality to the things that inhibit their freedoms does not, it seems to me, have any positive effect on the constraints imposed by race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and class. Does it? Why cheerlead for a restriction on freedom that adds to other restrictions on freedoms? Unless you can argue that it would somehow bring jobs and self-determination (and other Good Things) to Bulgarians. But I don't see how closing the borders would even lead towards that. Turkish people can't move freely around the EU but they're still screwed by the current political settlement.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 26, 2017)

Do you know what this repeated  refusal to see things the right way up reminds me of? When you explain what the structural and political problems with the EU are in the run up to the referendum - sometimes with especial attention to the murderous fortress europe plans and the response comes _oh so you, want to kick out all the foreigners then? _ Here, twice now explaining what freedom of movement means within the context of those plans and problems becomes _oh so you want to construct more borders to keep foreigners out then? _ No reflection on the questions posed about the very idea of 'freedoms' - esp under specific material conditions, no critical inquiry as to what - and importantly when it's these people, _whose  _- freedoms are being upheld or used to hide what these freedoms represent for others. No attempt to unpack the term.

Explaining the problems or reality of something becomes an endorsement of an evil opposite - and there is no way on earth these people would accept that sort of logic being applied to them or their arguments. Oppose AV _oh so you you're voting with the BNP now then?_

The erasmus/weekend in barca propaganda is deep deep for these people.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 26, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Do you know what this repeated  refusal to see things the right way up reminds me of? When you explain what the structural and political problems with the EU are in the run up to the referendum - sometimes with especial attention to the murderous fortress europe plans and the response comes _oh so you, want to kick out all the foreigners then? _ Here, twice now explaining what freedom of movement means within the context of those plans and problems becomes _oh so you want to construct more borders to keep foreigners out then? _ No reflection on the questions posed about the very idea of 'freedoms' - esp under specific material conditions, no critical inquiry as to what - and importantly when it's these people, _whose  _- freedoms are being upheld or used to hide what these freedoms represent for others. No attempt to unpack the term.
> 
> Explaining the problems or reality of something becomes an endorsement of an evil opposite - and there is no way on earth these people would accept that sort of logic being applied to them or their arguments. Oppose AV _oh so you you're voting with the BNP now then?_
> 
> The erasmus/weekend in barca propaganda is deep deep for these people.


I could equally say that you've refused to accept that millions of working class people feel they are better off for the freedom of movement. Your looking down at the structures from your lofty position of one of the wealthiest countries in Europe presumably wouldn't go down well with most of them. Tell those migrants they're wrong, not me, but maybe you'll have the decency to explain to them how the rejection of the EU as a package will result in better conditions for them that will ameliorate the loss of this particular (relative) freedom. I don't think that argument is made, and it isn't primarily to me that the argument needs to be made, but if you think you've made it at all you've done so very poorly so far. As for this gap-year Erasmus bullshit, and with this idea that mostly richer Eastern Europeans come here - it's so dishonest, you must know it's bullshit. Have a look at the average wage of migrants from A8 and A2  (newer EU) countries here and tell me it's Erasmus students: Characteristics and Outcomes of Migrants in the UK Labour Market - Migration Observatory

It's not about refusing to acknowledge all the other constraints people have on them, their material conditions and so on. It's about giving some sort of priority to people's lived experience at the same time as trying to deal with the oppressive structures of the 'free market'. We don't have to go with just one or the other.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 26, 2017)

Oh jesus - and again:



> Tell those migrants they're wrong



So focused in are you on the seemingly self-evident truth that anyone critically interrogating the reality of what freedom of movement is and does and is designed to provide cover for must be supportive of measures that you don't support. You're simply making a series of assumptions about a whole range of people here not one of who has supported your ridiculous repeated characterisations of them as calling for more borders. 

I take it when you attempt to accurately describe how in your view something bad works you aren't endorsing all other alternatives to what you're describing? Because that would be black and white and silly wouldn't it? Maybe you could try and allow the same sort of thing to others?


----------



## emanymton (Jul 26, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> I could equally say that you've refused to accept that millions of working class people feel they are better off for the freedom of movement. Your looking down at the structures from your lofty position of one of the wealthiest countries in Europe presumably wouldn't go down well with most of them. Tell those migrants they're wrong, not me, but maybe you'll have the decency to explain to them how the rejection of the EU as a package will result in better conditions for them that will ameliorate the loss of this particular (relative) freedom. I don't think that argument is made, and it isn't primarily to me that the argument needs to be made, but if you think you've made it at all you've done so very poorly so far. As for this gap-year Erasmus bullshit, and with this idea that mostly richer Eastern Europeans come here - it's so dishonest, you must know it's bullshit. Have a look at the average wage of migrants from A8 and A2  (newer EU) countries here and tell me it's Erasmus students: Characteristics and Outcomes of Migrants in the UK Labour Market - Migration Observatory
> 
> It's not about refusing to acknowledge all the other constraints people have on them, their material conditions and so on. It's about giving some sort of priority to people's lived experience at the same time as trying to deal with the oppressive structures of the 'free market'. We don't have to go with just one or the other.


A few years ago there was a big movement of Polish workers to the UK. Do you think most of them wanted to completely uproot their lives and move thousands of miles away from their families? Or do you think that for many of them it was economic factors that pushed them to move? Whose interest did their movement serve? Was it theirs, or would they have been better of with a higher earning job in Poland?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jul 27, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Why is the NS generally and Lewis in particular so obsessed with trans people?



she's in the Times yesterday

A man can’t just say he has turned into a woman


_It’s hard not to see Justine Greening’s proposal for “self-identification” of gender as a few rainbow sprinkles from a government that is struggling to pass any substantial legislation. I’m not even sure that some of the politicians involved understand what they are proposing._


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> And then we have the fact that the EU is using eastern europe as an ultra low wage platform whilst simultaneously subsiding capital to do so and attacking the social and welfare structures that might soften the blows for its victims - effectively leaving many workers no option but to be forced out to higher wage economies to support their families and dependents, thereby bringing down the wages there closer to the one they were forced to flee from. That's what free movement means to the EU - free movement meaning the same as free labour - i.e the _dull compulsion of economic relations _presented as _choice_.


Yup, there was an article I read somewhere (can't remember where now) that was pointing out to social democrats/liberals who support certain EU conditions, such as freedom of movement, that far from being about rights for workers, these are about factor mobility and labour arbitrage.

Now, that isn't to say that for individuals, being able to move to get a job somewhere else isn't useful in real terms here and now.  (And indeed my union supported Remain on just that point).  But the point is that the conditions compelling that person to seek employment elsewhere is a side of the account that is ignored by the social democrat/liberal EU supporters.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 28, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup, there was an article I read somewhere (can't remember where now) that was pointing out to social democrats/liberals who support certain EU conditions, such as freedom of movement, that far from being about rights for workers, these are about factor mobility and labour arbitrage.
> 
> Now, that isn't to say that for individuals, being able to move to get a job somewhere else isn't useful in real terms here and now.  (And indeed my union supported Remain on just that point).  But the point is that the conditions compelling that person to seek employment elsewhere is a side of the account that is ignored by the social democrat/liberal EU supporters.


Blimey - someone got it and managed to put the thing on it's proper footing! Without saying that this understanding is a plea for more borders and a moral condemnation of immigration.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 9, 2017)

Owen Jones is getting a phone-in talk show on LBC (covering for Maajid Nawaz over the Summer hols)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 15, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> We'ev ,the openly Nazi hacker who Laurie thought was a hero but didn't know he was a nazi has been quite busy.
> Hacker Claims Credit for Anti-Semitic Flyer Sent to College Campuses	  » ADL Blogs


He's up to all sorts of new japes these days:



> “Weev”, the system administrator for The Daily Stormer is planning on sending Nazis to #HeatherHeyer funeral. #Charlottesville,” Loomer wrote.
> 
> Her tweet included a screen shot of a post by “Weev” asking for “e-sleuths” to track down the funeral location.
> 
> ...



http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/dai...cist-in-charlottesville/#.WZME_YXbffA.twitter


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 15, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> He's up to all sorts of new japes these days:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/dai...cist-in-charlottesville/#.WZME_YXbffA.twitter


He's a shitbag isn't he?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 15, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> He's a shitbag isn't he?


BUT HE SEEMED SO SWEET AND QUIRKY, YEAH???


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 16, 2017)

'Weev' might have a small tech issue at the moment, what with the Daily Stormer being taken offline.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> 'Weev' might have a small tech issue at the moment, what with the Daily Stormer being taken offline.


.ru


----------



## BigTom (Aug 16, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> BUT HE SEEMED SO SWEET AND QUIRKY, YEAH???



is Weev the one laurie penny was matey with and said he was trolling with all his right wing stuff? Am I thinking of someone else?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 16, 2017)

BigTom said:


> is Weev the one laurie penny was matey with and said he was trolling with all his right wing stuff? Am I thinking of someone else?


That's the one, yes.


----------



## rekil (Aug 16, 2017)

One development since then is that all the private school twitter tankies who attacked Laurie Penny and Molly Crabapple over this are 100% with him when it comes to Syria.



> “Syria, even right now, is more free by orders of magnitude than the United States,” he says. “I think [Syrian president Bashar al] Assad fucked up. He should have gone full Hafez [al Assad, former president and Bashar’s father] on the bedouin at the start and none of this would ever have happened."
> 
> Claims about the current liberties to be enjoyed in Syria are difficult to verify because so many of the country's bloggers and free speech activists are being extrajudicially and indefinitely incarcerated by the government. Weev repeatedly uses the jingoistic term "bedouins" to characterize the opposition to Assad's rule.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 1, 2017)

FUCK YOU.


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2017)

What does she say in the article? Headers and subheaders are written by subs, they often bear only a passing resemblance to the thrust of the piece itself.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2017)

That's precisely the giggly _amn't i naughty everyone_ headline and subheader she would write or ask people to write though.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 1, 2017)

killer b said:


> What does she say in the article? Headers and subheaders are written by subs, they often bear only a passing resemblance to the thrust of the piece itself.



Don't know, it's paywalled. Typical sort of Lewis stance though, and I can well imagine someone in her sort of position arguing it.


----------



## killer b (Sep 1, 2017)

probably best not to argue against imagined stances though eh?


----------



## J Ed (Sep 1, 2017)

Also while we are on the topic of Lewis, current NS cover....


----------



## J Ed (Sep 1, 2017)

Trump is a populist, just like Corbyn, Brexit is bad and problematic fave George Osborne is good. Enlightened thinking in dark times.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2017)

6 writers there. 5 oxbridge. The other is a former editor of an oxbridge magazine.


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## killer b (Sep 1, 2017)

it isn't the latest issue mind. although the criticisms remain valid.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Sep 1, 2017)

Spoiler: Helen Lewis article



A friend of mine has recently been ill — the kind of ill where your life becomes a blizzard of appointments, tests and treatments; where doctors think you are an “interesting” case. She says it’s a cruel double blow: a heap of extra admin when you already feel rotten. Managing her diary and endless paperwork is making her feel unproductive at work.

She’s not the only one. Dire predictions of sky-high jobless figures after the credit crunch never came to pass. Britain doesn’t have an unemployment crisis. Instead, it has a productivity crisis. The latest figures show that more of us are in work; we’re just not getting more done. Productivity has slipped back to where it was before the financial crisis.

Economists offer dozens of competing explanations, from simple bad management to the grand and pessimistic prediction that innovation has stalled. However, the figures sent my mind in a different direction. Has anyone totted up the sheer amount of life admin that we do and considered what it might be doing to us in return? An economy built for working men with stay-at-home wives has had to adjust, shrieking and wailing, to the reality of dual-earner households and single parents.

The sheer effort involved in managing the lives of others — whether young children or elderly parents — eats up our concentration and our leisure time.

The problem is made worse by the trend in business to offload as much effort as possible on to customers, often under the guise of “convenience”. But the self-checkout queue doesn’t feel all that convenient when three of the tills are out of order and someone is locked in a mortal battle with the remaining one over how to weigh an individual banana. Big companies love call centres because they’re incredibly efficient — but only for them. Provide slightly fewer than the necessary number of advisers and you’ll never have one sitting idle. Instead, your customers will waste hours of their own time listening to the music from BA adverts in the 1990s.

Online forms are another time-suck. Some still refuse point-blank to accept that you might not have a home phone number, forcing you to make one up and hope a stranger in Wanstead doesn’t receive a call about your furniture delivery. Online ticket systems force you to jump through hoop after hoop, before mysteriously timing out when you finally enter your credit card details. And any modern version of the Labours of Hercules would find far harder tasks than cleaning the Augean stables: try getting hold of a living, breathing human at Amazon. Or navigating a price-comparison website.

This life admin often hits women harder. In 2013 Facebook’s chief operating officer, Sheryl Sandberg, became the poster girl for corporate feminism, advising working women to “lean in”. They had to get their (male) partners to do more and try harder to have it all. Then, in 2015, her husband, Dave, died suddenly. Sandberg was left to juggle a high-flying job and two young children.

Her new book, Option B, contains a fascinating statistic: among middle-aged adults who lose a spouse, 54% of men are in a romantic relationship a year later, compared with 7% of women. In Britain widowers are twice as likely as widows to remarry within five years. Those numbers hint at a hard truth: we go easier on men who feel they can’t cope with running a household and holding down a job. Of course they need a partner in life, we say. (See also fathers who “babysit” their own kids.)

Life admin feels so draining because it is barely recognised, let alone valued. There’s no Oscar for best carer or award for nappy-changer of the month. In March the author Bruce Holsinger collected examples of male authors thanking their wives in their book acknowledgments. One in particular took the biscuit: “My wife typed my manuscript drafts as soon as I gave them to her, even though she was caring for our first child, born in June 1946, and was also teaching part-time in the chemistry department.” (Want to bet that poor woman also had to listen to her husband moan about how tiring it is to write a book?) It’s hard to imagine such a dedication being written now. It shows how some of the pioneers of literature and science were able to get so much done in their chosen field: that was all they did.

What can be done? Proper recognition helps. The Office for National Statistics has recently begun to analyse its data seriously, reporting that the estimated value of unpaid childcare in 2015 was £132.4bn. That’s more than the annual NHS budget. Honesty also helps: researchers only recently discovered that the most leisure-starved group were mothers, because early studies classed childcare and housework as “leisure”. (Those studies were largely carried out by men.)

Of course there is one obvious solution to the difficulty of juggling full-time work and life admin. In the end I told my friend that what she needed was simple: a wife.



So not as bad as the headline suggest.  But how the fuck does someone basically write a piece about unpaid labour - listing the massive amounts of paperwork and appointments needed during times of personal crisis, and how infuriating personal admin often is, companies that make things harder for consumers (and workers, though she doesn't mention this) for their own convenience and cost-cutting, the massive amounts of unpaid labour that go into raising kids and caring for the sick and elderly and the gendered division of labour for this - and use her sick friend as an example ffs - and conclude that the main issue resulting in this is work productivity (rather than, you know, stress or poverty or grinding down any enjoyment in life or alienation) and the source of the problem is not capitalism itself or even any fundamental problem with women's gendered role within the system, but just that the system hasn't adapted very well to women having jobs yet, and that all that needs doing about all this is better statistics (and ha ha stressed out women just need to get wives)??


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2017)

Plus she doesn't look at the other factors of why productivity is down such as underresourcing or bad management.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 1, 2017)

Basically she fancied writing an article about all the work we have to do that isn't officially work - a great topic - but decided to hang it on a convenient news hook of productivity figures when really that's a stupid place to hang it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2017)

II did a search for her name and productivity earlier - she's done a fair number of pieces on the idea without once seeming to get that it means...MORE WORK. Maybe she's eyeing up post-journo management  jobs after she has finally been found out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2017)

J Ed said:


> FUCK YOU.



Could she look any smugger?

Oxbridge twat!


----------



## killer b (Sep 12, 2017)

who's going to break it to her?


----------



## killer b (Sep 12, 2017)

(and does anyone know which paper?)


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 12, 2017)

One bad review in (I'm certain) a slew of sycophantic slobbering over how awesome and insightful and relevant she is, and she _cries_.

Reading your own reviews is a super edgy and cool thing to do though.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> probably best not to argue against imagined stances though eh?


 Having a go at the clickbaityness of the headline is fair game though, no?


----------



## J Ed (Sep 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> who's going to break it to her?




In a more meritocratic society she would be less upset because she would be more used to disappointment.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 13, 2017)

suuuper		ffs


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 13, 2017)

There was a great article by one Helen Pidd in the Guardian moaning about the lack of black faces in the audience at the Manchester Arena We are Manchester concert .


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 13, 2017)

Libertad said:


> suuuper ffs



Pronounced thuuuper.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2017)

Well, after an internet search, the Sydney morning herald thought it was 'compelling' (review was balanced, looked at the weak points as well), Kirkus Reviews described it as 'polemic writing at its thoughtful best', Foyles Bookshop gave her a very positive review, the Financial Times reviewed that book and others as part of an article about feminism and trump, and certainly didn't bash it by any means, but these articles aren't from today, they're from 6 to 8 weeks ago at least. 

No obvious bad review for bitch doctrine that I could see.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2017)

Did stumble across her Patreon info - she currently gets over $4k a month from 624 sponsors to write articles, which will be on top of the money she gets paid by magazines and newspapers for her work.


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Did stumble across her Patreon info - she currently gets over $4k a month from 624 sponsors to write articles, which will be on top of the money she gets paid by magazines and newspapers for her work.


It's great - people who want to read her bollocks can now pay her directly, and she's no longer compelled by economics to chase commissions from newspapers and magazines. Notice you haven't heard much from her lately? This is why. 

last time I looked, four people paid her $250 a month. Mad.


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2017)

I take my defence of Lewis last page back btw - she does it to herself.


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 14, 2017)

killer b said:


> I take my defence of Lewis last page back btw - she does it to herself.





Butchers on the money here: "That's precisely the giggly _amn't i naughty everyone_ headline and subheader she would write or ask people to write though."


----------



## krink (Sep 14, 2017)

I can string some words together, can i have 250 a month x4 please?


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2017)

You'll need to put a lot more work into your personal brand I'm afraid - it's individual people paying that, who each think her work is vital enough to pay three grand a year to support.


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2017)

Incredible what a relentless self publicist from a massively privileged background can do with a little hard work.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2017)

**ignore - hang on**


----------



## LDC (Sep 27, 2017)

Novara Media's content from the Labour Party conference and The World Transformed thing is so obsequious it's unwatchable.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2017)

Why an USDAW lanyard - or doesn't it matter? He's just _Paul Mason._


----------



## killer b (Sep 27, 2017)

embarrassing.

it should be _ohhhhh_ jeremy corbyn. _ooooh_ ffs.


----------



## chilango (Sep 27, 2017)

laughing at, not laughing with.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> View attachment 116538 View attachment 116537
> 
> Why an USDAW lanyard



Because John Kiriakou couldn't make it


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2017)




----------



## LDC (Sep 27, 2017)

Who the fuck is that with him? 

And is it just me or does that medallion looks a bit photo-shopped?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Who the fuck is that with him?
> 
> And is it just me or does that medallion looks a bit photo-shopped?


She is maker of 'upcycled artwork and jewellery'. mason posted it on his own timeline so assuming it's gen. She's been hawking these monstrosities for months.


----------



## chilango (Sep 27, 2017)




----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Who the fuck is that with him?
> 
> And is it just me or does that medallion looks a bit photo-shopped?


I think it's because mason's head always looked photo-shopped no matter what. A bit like aidan gillen's mouth movements being out of sync with his own voice.


----------



## killer b (Sep 27, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I think it's because mason's head always looked photo-shopped no matter what.


It does!


----------



## gawkrodger (Sep 27, 2017)




----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Novara Media's content from the Labour Party conference and The World Transformed thing is so obsequious it's unwatchable.



For me a lot of it just isn't very good. Some of what they put out is OK, although it tends to be ok in spite of itself because they have someone good on who they are interviewing, but they have just taken an opportunity for some really good media output and fucked it up. 

They seem to be growing a lot though so maybe I'm just not the target audience.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2017)

Also I notice that Paul Mason hasn't expanded on his 'Corbyn gov needs to drone bomb Helmand to implement real socialism' line at the conference as far as I can tell.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Also I notice that Paul Mason hasn't expanded on his 'Corbyn gov needs to drone bomb Helmand to implement real socialism' line at the conference as far as I can tell.


Nor his_ corbyn needs to be stabbed in the back right now_ line.


----------



## phillm (Sep 27, 2017)

Crikey he has the hots for her hence his embarassing supplication. The things we do for love !


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 28, 2017)

Novara are just a bunch of wannabe celebrity journos.  No depth, no analysis, just a desperate audition  for "Comment is Free"

Went to their TWT thing about anti fascism. Properly cringeworthy


----------



## LDC (Sep 28, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Novara are just a bunch of wannabe celebrity journos.  No depth, no analysis, just a desperate audition  for "Comment is Free"
> 
> Went to their TWT thing about anti fascism. Properly cringeworthy



I used to quite enjoy listening to their radio a while ago, it was a bit autonomist-lite kind of politics, but had some interesting output and discussion sometimes I thought. Over the last couple of years they've got increasingly fixated by Paul Mason/Labour/etc. and seem to have moved much more into 'pure journalism' rather than political reporting and analysis as well as jettisoning their more radical positions.

Out of them all I think Ash Sarkar often seems to have a better political perspective than some of the others, and that Michael Walker does my head (class war social democrat?!) in whereas Bastani does just seem to want to be a Paul Mason with a slightly better dress sense.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> For me a lot of it just isn't very good. Some of what they put out is OK, although it tends to be ok in spite of itself because they have someone good on who they are interviewing, but they have just taken an opportunity for some really good media output and fucked it up.
> 
> They seem to be growing a lot though so maybe I'm just not the target audience.


Do they still always do things in peedie lists? 5 THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THIS  PRETTY COMPLEX SUBJECT ACTUALLY. Ah man I had to stop reading for my BP.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Also I notice that Paul Mason hasn't expanded on his 'Corbyn gov needs to drone bomb Helmand to implement real socialism' line at the conference as far as I can tell.





butchersapron said:


> Nor his_ corbyn needs to be stabbed in the back right now_ line.



Actually nevermind...


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2017)

My God Tawney! What next the webbs? That technocratic behind the scenes lever pulling thing he mentions as regards the move into social-democratic scandanavian post-capitalism led by the goiverner of the bank of england is v reminiscent of them. And that Jan Valtin book has been exposed as a work of fiction so many times now.


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2017)

This from marina Hyde is hilarious - the bit where she grudgingly fakes finding the in jokes of the cobynite left funny so she can then spend the last third of the article accusing them of not being able to take a joke themselves like what she can is fab.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 28, 2017)

killer b said:


> This from marina Hyde is hilarious - the bit where she grudgingly fakes finding the in jokes of the cobynite left funny so she can then spend the last third of the article accusing them of not being able to take a joke themselves like what she can is fab.



The graunid articles where they are pretending not to hate the left while adding in not-so-subtle digs at the left are the best.


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2017)

TBF she doesn't pretend not to hate them.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2017)

Seriously - mason's recommendations for understanding modern society and what's happening is a mild mannered christian fabian from 100 year ago and a fake memoir about stuff nearly a hundred years ago. This post-capitalism sure is a bit old-fashioned.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously - mason's recommendations for understanding modern society and what's happening is a mild mannered christian fabian from 100 year ago and a fake memoir about stuff nearly a hundred years ago. This post-capitalism sure is a bit old-fashioned.



Seems to me like he is just name dropping obscure people in the hope that no one knows what he is on about but will sound suitably impressed. I certainly haven't heard of anyone who he is mentioning here, though I do know about or at least of Fabian Christians.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Seems to me like he is just name dropping obscure people in the hope that no one knows what he is on about but will sound suitably impressed. I certainly haven't heard of anyone who he is mentioning here, though I do know about or at least of Fabian Christians.


Tawney would be like the Toynbee of his day - but with a proper solid intellectual background. It's just bizarre to call him up. Valtin was one that anyone who was in he non-swp left groups when mason was a developing politically would know - the SP even re-published his book. It says to me that despite the up-to-date front he tries to put on he's really using the exact same tools and in the same way as when he was in workers power.


----------



## rekil (Sep 30, 2017)

Aaron fightin' with the Kingster.






			
				kingster said:
			
		

> Ms. Kuenssberg’s trolls are also as likely to come from the left as the right — as are other critics of her work. Her reporting, as well as that of many other BBC journalists, is the subject of constant critique on a wave of new left-wing websites, such as The Canary, Evolve Politics and Novara Media.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2017)

copliker said:


> Aaron fightin' with the Kingster.



Two old friends of the _Girder_ slugging it out for the championship


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously - mason's recommendations for understanding modern society and what's happening is a mild mannered christian fabian from 100 year ago and a fake memoir about stuff nearly a hundred years ago. This post-capitalism sure is a bit old-fashioned.



Mason reminds me of articul8 .  That same mix of unbridled enthusiasm (with lack of analysis), references to concepts and theories he obviously hasn't digested, and that crypto-Fabianism (which both would deny, but which is obvious to anyone outside "the bubble").


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Tawney would be like the Toynbee of his day - but with a proper solid intellectual background. It's just bizarre to call him up. Valtin was one that anyone who was in he non-swp left groups when mason was a developing politically would know - the SP even re-published his book. It says to me that despite the up-to-date front he tries to put on he's really using the exact same tools and in the same way as when he was in workers power.



I think he's hoping no-one has read Tawney - after all, he's not on academic book lists anymore - so he can get away with referencing him.  It's like referencing Hoggart or T.H. Marshall - solid but now obscure intellectuals.


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2017)

This has not aged well. The little heart and everything.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2017)

copliker said:


> This has not aged well. The little heart and everything.
> 
> View attachment 117458


Ms Penny's lawyers have been in touch to explain that that is not, in fact, a “little heart” but instead denotes that Ms Penny and Mr Yiannopoulos met fewer than three times.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 10, 2017)

What's the point in posting 7 year old tweets?  They're not supposed to 'age well' are they.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2017)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> What's the point in posting 7 year old tweets?  They're not supposed to 'age well' are they.


Because the pallyness of Penny and Yiannopoulos is significant, with mutual back-slapping articles produced by each of them over the years, right up until last year, well after Gamergate and the rise of the alt-right.

As he wrote in 2012, “Obviously, I loathe everything the woman writes, but she’s a nice, middle-class girl whose schtick happens to be Left, where mine is Right. She’s entirely unlike nasty pieces of work such as Johann Hari or the _New Statesman’s_ Mehdi Hasan...”


----------



## campanula (Oct 10, 2017)

A vacuous fluffball of nothingness, then.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2017)

copliker said:


> Aaron fightin' with the Kingster.



Did you ever send him his PD mug?


----------



## rekil (Oct 10, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Did you ever send him his PD mug?


We were waiting for an appropriate stamp. Not one of the ones we demanded in the campaign against the post office but it'll do.

IrishStamps.ie - 50th Anniversary of the death of Che Guevara


----------



## J Ed (Oct 17, 2017)

This is what they actually think... voters as school children.

My School Had A Referendum On Getting Rid Of Homework, And It Didn't Quite Go To Plan | HuffPost UK

Homework of course, being that thing that is totally uncontested as being academically useful. The author of this article, who had to use teaching as an analogy because they are so clueless about everything else, does not appear to know that much about their own area of professional expertise.

...he's done a TED talk though.


----------



## co-op (Oct 17, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This is what they actually think... voters as school children.
> 
> My School Had A Referendum On Getting Rid Of Homework, And It Didn't Quite Go To Plan | HuffPost UK
> 
> ...



Not only has this idiot redefined being patronising, his analogy is shit anyway since there is an extremely lively and interesting debate about whether or not homework is any good at improving education. Many homework advocates are just emptily 'supporting' a policy which is based on no evidence, a historical hangover which gives right-wing know-nothings a hard-on because it feels all old-fashioned.

Finland - which kicks the UK's arse on education standards - got rid of homework years ago.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This is what they actually think... voters as school children.
> 
> My School Had A Referendum On Getting Rid Of Homework, And It Didn't Quite Go To Plan | HuffPost UK
> 
> ...



That’s cringeworthy


----------



## inva (Oct 17, 2017)

even if it is good at improving education (or what schools interpret that as), kids shouldn't have to do homework anyway.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 17, 2017)

Fuck homework.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 17, 2017)

The amount of homework my 5 year old gets home is nuts, as he's already knackered (tearful tantrum style tired) by 4pm- there's something in there for every day of the week. We often just miss bits. I'll carry on doing that until social services gets involved.  This news strengthens my Brexit stance.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 17, 2017)

Coursework can get to fuck as well. Along with homework I never bothered with that shit.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 17, 2017)

TruXta said:


> Fuck homework.


And fuck work-work too


----------



## killer b (Oct 18, 2017)

I'm not sure where else to put this, but I guess this article about the repeated attempt to launch centrist parties via twitter is best here - latest by Economist writer Jeremy Cliffe (he's already bowed out)

People Keep Trying To Start Pro-EU British Centrist Movements On Twitter


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 18, 2017)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure where else to put this, but I guess this article about the repeated attempt to launch centrist parties via twitter is best here - latest by Economist writer Jeremy Cliffe (he's already bowed out)
> 
> People Keep Trying To Start Pro-EU British Centrist Movements On Twitter


On top of everything else, they can also be criticised for not even wanting their EU centrist movements hard enough. They are even shit at being shit!


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 19, 2017)

Anyone been following the Sam Kriss implosion? A woman accused him on facebook of sexual harassment/assault while on a date, as part of the #metoo campaign. He has issued a quite shit semi-apology. There are rumours that Vice will no longer be commissioning him, though I haven't seen that confirmed.


----------



## killer b (Oct 19, 2017)

Vice have confirmed they have no plans to commission any further pieces from him, yeah.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> Vice have confirmed they have no plans to commission any further pieces from him, yeah.


Ah, cheers. I've enjoyed reading him but nobody is totally necessary and it's good to see this stuff highlighted on the left. I'm glad he's having to answer for his actions. 

Suspect his career will recover one way or another, but we'll see.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 19, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> Anyone been following the Sam Kriss implosion? A woman accused him on facebook of sexual harassment/assault while on a date, as part of the #metoo campaign. He has issued a quite shit semi-apology. There are rumours that Vice will no longer be commissioning him, though I haven't seen that confirmed.


In case anyone missed it:

#MeToo and Sam Kriss - Pastebin.com

Today an allegation of sexual harassment and aggression was made against me, and I want to address…


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 19, 2017)

Full on sexual assault is what i read.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 19, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> In case anyone missed it:
> 
> #MeToo and Sam Kriss - Pastebin.com
> 
> Today an allegation of sexual harassment and aggression was made against me, and I want to address…


The tweets on there actually defending his attempt to "provide context" or "explain the misunderstanding" fuck sake.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 19, 2017)

diamarzipan said:


> The tweets on there actually defending his attempt to "provide context" or "explain the misunderstanding" fuck sake.


Yeah, there's a world of difference between a mistaken drunken attempt to kiss someone and the kind of domineering persistence and physical assault described. To be fair I felt most people in the comments recognise what a shit 'apology' it is. It's always so telling when someone can't even apologise properly - just confirms they really didn't get what they did wrong.


----------



## killer b (Oct 19, 2017)

Another twitter dude torpedoed for being a creep - this time GQ political correspondent (now ex-GQ political correspondent) Rupert Myers. I'm only vaguely aware of him as a smug faced irritant tbh.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> Another twitter dude torpedoed for being a creep - this time GQ political correspondent (now ex-GQ political correspondent) Rupert Myers. I'm only vaguely aware of him as a smug faced irritant tbh.



He was very vocally supportive on twitter of the women speaking out about Weinstein and others, and someone called him out for his hypocrisy (Marie Le Conte, I think)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> Another twitter dude torpedoed for being a creep - this time GQ political correspondent (now ex-GQ political correspondent) Rupert Myers. I'm only vaguely aware of him as a smug faced irritant tbh.





TheHoodedClaw said:


> He was very vocally supportive on twitter of the women speaking out about Weinstein and others, and someone called him out for his hypocrisy (Marie Le Conte, I think)



Then there's this thread...


----------



## killer b (Oct 19, 2017)

Ah yes, I recall reading that thread at the time now I see it again. Good good.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 19, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Then there's this thread...



"as a long time slag" ahahah I do like this girl  #slagsmoralcode


----------



## LDC (Oct 24, 2017)

Plan C seem to jumped fully onto the Corbyn/Mason/Novara train...

Corbynism from (the Great) Below  | We are Plan C
Dreams, Memes, Labour and Us | We are Plan C


----------



## crossthebreeze (Oct 24, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Plan C seem to jumped fully onto the Corbyn/Mason/Novara train...
> 
> Corbynism from (the Great) Below  | We are Plan C
> Dreams, Memes, Labour and Us | We are Plan C


I'll read those later, but it all sounds very depressing


----------



## LDC (Oct 24, 2017)

Plan C are very good at faux intellectualising themselves into any position they want. I think there's totally a London-centric back slapping circle of people that are getting very excited at being personally very close to the Corbyn/Mason thing - Novara seem to have lost all perspective and critical abilities.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 25, 2017)

As those articles try to make clear, Plan C itself has no official position with regard to Labour or Corbyn afaik. So I'm not sure Plan C has got itself into any position. I heard the other day someone telling me in full confidence that Plan C had affiliated to the Labour Party. Which just shows people are very quick to leap to uncharitable interpretations of people having debates, which it seems to me is what those articles are doing. In fact both articles express a lot of reservations about committing to Labour per se.


----------



## LDC (Oct 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> As those articles try to make clear, Plan C itself has no official position with regard to Labour or Corbyn afaik. So I'm not sure Plan C has got itself into any position. I heard the other day someone telling me in full confidence that Plan C had affiliated to the Labour Party. Which just shows people are very quick to leap to uncharitable interpretations of people having debates, which it seems to me is what those articles are doing. In fact both articles express a lot of reservations about committing to Labour per se.



You're right, Plan C doesn't have any official position on the Labour Party and Corbyn. It has though, got itself into a position of being very supportive and excited about both, and by extension parliamentary politics, with not much criticism coming from anyone else in the organisation, so it's easy to see why it might be seen as an official position by some. It's not all of Plan C for sure, but those that are tend to be the loudest members that get heard the most at the moment.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 15, 2017)

Commentariat Patreon breakdown.

Name / followers / cash per month / notes

*Stavvers */42 / not stated / is doing that writing a novel in November thing. Also apparently posts up her income monthly.
*Laurie Penny* / 605 / $4,333 / is also writing fiction. For $10 a month you would have been given the opportunity to choose what she reviews
*Richard Seymour* / 228 / not stated / a daily diary and other bits including his thoughts on the anarchist bookfair debacle
*Sam Ambreen */ 1/ $2 / just a couple of links to her blog thus far. (possibly defunct idk)
*Working Class History* (I think a subset of Libcom?) / 34 / $184 / drumming up cash for a podcast and oral history project.
*Sam Kriss* / 21 / $129 / you can marry this dude for $1 million. Probably best avoided though, eh?

Also try hards like this with no followers: Matt Turner is creating incisive, eye-opening political commentary and analysis. | Patreon

Not on there as far as I can see:

Paul Mason
Owen Jones
Jack Monroe

Presumably because they have relatively stable income from other sources.

Also the Novara lot, who do their own fundraising as an org.

Who have I missed?


----------



## JimW (Nov 15, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> ...
> *Laurie Penny* / 605 / $4,333 / is also writing fiction...


Fish...barrel...


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2017)

Nick Lowe is making 600 quid a month from Patreon which is nice. He's not commentariat but its nice to know anyway


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 15, 2017)

Patreon looks like a real time indicator of where people are in the commentariat hierarchy.

Except you have a commentariat "royalty" too who don't need to dirty their hands with it, because they already earn enough from the Guardian or wherever?

Question - is Laurie Penny's income now more secure than Owen Jones'? She is apparently on £40k a year from Patreon alone by today's exchange rate?

I guess this will depend on her ability to keep her backers happy vs Owen's capacity for pitching his writing to publishers.


----------



## hot air baboon (Nov 15, 2017)

wonder what the tax implications of this are  - somewhere between income from a trade & a gift


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> wonder what the tax implications of this are  - somewhere between income from a trade & a gift


presumably closer to self employment than anything else- if you commission a piece from a writer or an artist you pay them the asking and the tax arrangement are between the artist/writer and her majesties taxmen.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 15, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> wonder what the tax implications of this are  - somewhere between income from a trade & a gift



exactly as DC says, they will all be self-employed and it will count as income for tax purposes. No way this is a gift and income from a trade counts as income, you are selling a product/service.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2017)

Patreon is bog standard for anyone who creates content and doesn't have a regular job doing it. It's used by basically every artist I know, including loads of comic artists; also small game devs, writers, and people who don't have an easily-identifiable/marketable term. It's a way of doing multimedia publishing and getting money for it.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 17, 2017)

She's not part of the commentaries but cayleigh elise on you tube is supported through patreon for her content, which is well researched and factual, she focuses on the cases of missing people and unsolved murders to help raise their profile, hoping for progress and new leads. Last time I looked she gets around $2500 from 1100 subscribers,  she doesn't offer perks or different packages, but she is sincere in her appreciation of those who support her, even if that's just watching her videos.

Interestingly molly crabapple is only supporting others on patreon, she's not asking for money.


----------



## killer b (Nov 17, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Patreon is bog standard for anyone who creates content and doesn't have a regular job doing it. It's used by basically every artist I know, including loads of comic artists; also small game devs, writers, and people who don't have an easily-identifiable/marketable term. It's a way of doing multimedia publishing and getting money for it.


I think everyone is aware of what patreon is and how widespread it's use is now - what I wonder is, what effect does this kind of direct patronage have on a writer's work, and journalism in general?

I've mentioned elsewhere that there has been a noticable drop in the number of articles Laurie Penny has published in the press in the last year or so, in my view because she now has a stable income from her Patreon (and also that she is kept busy creating exclusive content for her patrons). Penny has been much more successful than most writers in leveraging her profile in this way, and frankly we're all better off without seeing her articles everywhere, but I reckon it could be having a more subtle dampening effect across the industry as more and more writers' work disappears behind personal paywalls.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 17, 2017)

Exactly - it's an understandable trend as print media dries up and there is presumably less paid work around for writers too?

I think with LP there is also a move towards trying to create fiction because you can spend time doing that and still be paid by your patrons. For this you can give them the odd snippet of your work in progress to keep them happy. Then ideally you can also be paid for a book deal if it's any good.


----------



## killer b (Nov 17, 2017)

I don't necessarily think it's any worse than the current dying system of patronage, where the financial or propaganda needs of press barons shape what's written. But it's definitely something that we should be keeping an eye on.


----------



## newbie (Nov 17, 2017)

BigTom said:


> exactly as DC says, they will all be self-employed and it will count as income for tax purposes. No way this is a gift and income from a trade counts as income, you are selling a product/service.


What tax jurisdiction does it arise in?


----------



## BigTom (Nov 17, 2017)

newbie said:


> What tax jurisdiction does it arise in?



I'm not a tax lawyer. I imagine you could use this to weasel your way out of paying taxes but generally it would arise in the jurisdiction the person is registered to pay tax in. It never made any difference to me when I was self employed if I was being paid in £ by British people, € by Europeans or $ by Americans, it's all taxable income in the UK.


----------



## newbie (Nov 17, 2017)

BigTom said:


> I'm not a tax lawyer. I imagine you could use this to weasel your way out of paying taxes


Nor am I but I can't see any reason in principle why a writer shouldn't open an account in the Caymans or Isle of Man or somewhere, pay the Patreon money into it and then read up on how to launder it. To assume they're all honest would be a bit of a stretch. The Patreon page on tax is very US centric, and doesn't mention anything about not dealing with tax havens.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 17, 2017)

This tax stuff is boring and not exactly relevant to the thread unless I have missed something?
Tax Form Information | Patreon


----------



## newbie (Nov 17, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This tax stuff is boring and not exactly relevant to the thread unless I have missed something?
> Tax Form Information | Patreon


I agree it's not exactly core, just a passing thought.


----------



## krink (Nov 17, 2017)

I am really skint - for example I only put the heating on two days a week - how do i get on this gig? I can string a few words together which, judging by the output I've seen so far, is the only requirement. Or do you already have to be of the commentariat?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2017)

krink said:


> I am really skint - for example I only put the heating on two days a week - how do i get on this gig? I can string a few words together which, judging by the output I've seen so far, is the only requirement. Or do you already have to be of the commentariat?


Think of it as a classical workers mutal benefit society for those already in little need of it. With a a little bit of celeb fairy dust sprinkled on top. The ones we're talking about anyway.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 17, 2017)

The issue is that you need a shit-tonne of social capital to make this work. This is how the hierarchy pans out with Laurie Penny making a go of it at the top and Sam Ambreen with one patron at the bottom.

The same is true of crowd-funding stuff.


----------



## krink (Nov 17, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Think of it as a classical workers mutal benefit society for those already in little need of it. With a a little bit of celeb fairy dust sprinkled on top. The ones we're talking about anyway.



Ah, I see. But I could write some tosh about how being poor has a tragic, poetic beauty to it. There must be a market for povo porn, surely?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The issue is that you need a shit-tonne of social capital to make this work. This is how the hierarchy pans out with Laurie Penny making a go of it at the top and Sam Ambreen with one patron at the bottom.
> 
> The same is true of crowd-funding stuff.


I feel quite sad now.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2017)

krink said:


> Ah, I see. But I could write some tosh about how being poor has a tragic, poetic beauty to it. There must be a market for povo porn, surely?


Need to brand-build via guardian opinion section first.


----------



## krink (Nov 17, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Need to brand-build via guardian opinion section first.



If Proletarian Democracy can do it with The workers Girder, then so can I. Reach for the Tsars!


----------



## chilango (Nov 17, 2017)

krink said:


> Ah, I see. But I could write some tosh about how being poor has a tragic, poetic beauty to it. There must be a market for povo porn, surely?



Patrons don't want to pay for "poor people's views". One of their own will write it far better for their needs.


----------



## rekil (Nov 17, 2017)

krink said:


> If Proletarian Democracy can do it with The workers Girder, then so can I. Reach for the Tsars!


The success of the AfD and the tasteful design of their loon mag is a reminder that it's time to relaunch Stonewashed.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 17, 2017)

Given the example I gave, getting a you tube channel up and running and providing regular new content to encourage people to subscribe would seem to be the full step.


----------



## krink (Nov 17, 2017)

chilango said:


> Patrons don't want to pay for "poor people's views". One of their own will write it far better for their needs.


Yes, I suppose the rich do have a much better understanding of the beauty of poverty than the poor.

This stuff always brings to my mind a story i heard where during the depression a visiting Lady told a group of Glasgow women how to make ends meet by using fish heads in their cookery. "Aye, and who gets the rest of the fish?" asked the audience!


----------



## chilango (Nov 17, 2017)

copliker said:


> The success of the AfD and the tasteful design of their loon mag is a reminder that it's time to relaunch Stonewashed.
> 
> View attachment 120711



Ahhh. _Stonewashed_. Great mag. Make me feel, how do you say?, erm, comfortable. Like them beaded seat covers you get in certain cars.


----------



## rekil (Nov 17, 2017)

chilango said:


> beaded seat covers you get in certain cars.


One for the middle age kicks listicle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 17, 2017)

krink said:


> Yes, I suppose the rich do have a much better understanding of the beauty of poverty than the poor.
> 
> This stuff always brings to my mind a story i heard where during the depression a visiting Lady told a group of Glasgow women how to make ends meet by using fish heads in their cookery. "Aye, and who gets the rest of the fish?" asked the audience!


my memory has that story in londons east end #regionalpride


----------



## krink (Nov 17, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> my memory has that story in londons east end #regionalpride



yeah i think i'll start saying it was my gran who said it. 
in fact it definitely was her, in Gateshead in 1937 and she was holding my newborn Dad.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 17, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Given the example I gave, getting a you tube channel up and running and providing regular new content to encourage people to subscribe would seem to be the full step.



I've noticed quite a few people on YouTube now have a Patreon account. I'm guessing that this is due to YouTube tightening up their advertisement revenue-sharing scheme - lots of complaints about people having their videos demonetised, sometimes for no apparent reason at all.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 17, 2017)

NoXion said:


> I've noticed quite a few people on YouTube now have a Patreon account. I'm guessing that this is due to YouTube tightening up their advertisement revenue-sharing scheme - lots of complaints about people having their videos demonetised, sometimes for no apparent reason at all.


That's exactly what cayleigh elise said - and due to the nature of her subject matter she wasn't even sure how long her you tube channel would get any advertising for in the future.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 17, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> That's exactly what cayleigh elise said - and due to the nature of her subject matter she wasn't even sure how long her you tube channel would get any advertising for in the future.



I've noticed that Google typically make it extremely difficult to redress grievances brought about by their systems - false DMCA flagging used to be the bane of those creating videos that someone, somewhere might take offense to for whatever stupid reason. That seems to happen less often now, thankfully. But now it seems that YouTube themselves, through either whatever human staff they have (probably nowhere near as much as is actually needed, considering the popularity of YouTube and the stinginess of modern tech companies), or whatever boneheaded algorithm they use to identify videos, is directly fucking with their userbase.

There's definitely some kind of push to make YouTube more shiny and corporate. Although maybe they should try working on preventing videos created by 4chan sickos from getting into kids' video feeds, before they try to make themselves into the next Disney Channel or whatever.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 17, 2017)

Everyone who calls my transphobia transphobia is a Russian bot I’m beginning to believe there’s a Russian conspiracy to churn out online conspiracy theories


----------



## NoXion (Nov 17, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Everyone who calls my transphobia transphobia is a Russian bot I’m beginning to believe there’s a Russian conspiracy to churn out online conspiracy theories



Apparently there's no such thing as honest disagreement these days.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 17, 2017)

Nyet


----------



## J Ed (Nov 17, 2017)

killer b said:


> I don't necessarily think it's any worse than the current dying system of patronage, where the financial or propaganda needs of press barons shape what's written. But it's definitely something that we should be keeping an eye on.



Strikes me as well that it is something that only makes sense within the current way in which people navigate the world, as individuals who are having various sorts of transactional relationships with other individuals. Obviously I am not going to say that people should instead be giving money to the Guardian or god forbid the Torygraph or worse, but this sort of shift I think does represent a change. Money that might otherwise be going to institutions is instead going to individuals. I wonder whether that says something about tendency towards monopoly under capitalism.


----------



## rekil (Nov 19, 2017)

chilango said:


> Ahhh. _Stonewashed_. Great mag. Make me feel, how do you say?, erm, comfortable. Like them beaded seat covers you get in certain cars.


Chile election today. I note that presidential candidate Eduardo Artes, of our top 20 enemy Proletarian Action, has appropriated 'Retro' chic.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 29, 2017)

copliker said:


> Laurie and Molly get the mention on Breitbart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rewind and come again:



> “You fucking wicked kike whore,” Andrew Auernheimer, The Daily Stormer’s webmaster, said in a voicemail for Gersh. “This is Trump’s America now.”



The Making of an American Nazi


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 17, 2018)

I note that Eleanor Penny, having got some experience with her sister, then with her sister's friends at Novara, has now got a paid editorial position with Red Pepper. I find it kind of amazing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 17, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I note that Eleanor Penny, having got some experience with her sister, then with her sister's friends at Novara, has now got a paid editorial position with Red Pepper. I find it kind of amazing.


Amazing? It's unbelievable - people getting paid at _Red Pepper_?! articul8 say it ain't so!!!


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 18, 2018)

Not sure Laurie's particularly in with the Novara crew? I got the impression Eleanor was there from quite early off her own bat, working basically for free for a fair chunk of time. Don't think there's much to be grumbled at about that, even if the jump from edgy upstart outfit to a paid gig with something like Red Pepper is a well-trodden path. The joint podcast for the Staggers with her sister on the other hand...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 18, 2018)

I think Laurie was interviewed on the main Novara FM show once. 

Eleanor has way better politics afaik (I mean, that isn't _difficult_...)

Having said that, there are possibly all sorts of social / alumni connections behind the scenes that us mortals wouldn't know about.


----------



## rekil (Jan 18, 2018)

They were all gr8 student m8s. Laurie tried to elbow her way onto Novara but failed and accused them of being sexists. Aaron said they wanted people that didn't already have columns and telly appearances and 100k twitter machine followers. As luck would have it, Laurie's privately educated UCL grad sister was around. See Workers' Girder's leftygoss pullout sections from 2013.


----------



## LDC (Jan 18, 2018)

Just watched Ash Sarkar vs. Piers Morgan on Good Morning Britain.  FFS she didn't half faff about being coy about the national anthem and the monarchy. Where's Ian Bone when you need him?!


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> Aaron said they wanted people that didn't already have columns and telly appearances and 100k twitter machine followers.



Think that one died when they took on Paul Mason.



> she didn't half faff about being coy about the national anthem and the monarchy.



Oh I dunno, enjoyable bit of old-fashioned telly trollery I thought. Ian Bone used to do similar back in the day iirc, albeit without an eye for future controversial opinioneering oppotunities.


----------



## LDC (Jan 18, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> Ian Bone used to do similar back in the day iirc, albeit without an eye for future controversial opinioneering oppotunities.



Ah, edited to add my Ian Bone quip before seeing this. Think he put in a notable performance on a Jonathon Ross show once.

Here ya all go...


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 18, 2018)

You know she got to them though, the Daily Mail was reduced to headlining with "Piers Morgan clashes with woman" because "journalist" would sound too respectful.


----------



## LDC (Jan 18, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> You know she got to them though, the Daily Mail was reduced to headlining with "Piers Morgan clashes with woman" because "journalist" would sound too respectful.



He did look like he was going to have a stroke. Can't quite imagine how he would have coped if she'd been a bit more forthright (honest?) in what she thinks, he might have imploded or something.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 18, 2018)

Suggesting "Wearing My Rolex" as the new national anthem is great. That's better than getting into all the guff about verse two being about bashing your enemies and the song itself being about the Queen rather than the country.

But it's not nearly as good as Martin Wright in full M'AM mode simply saying "We want to abolish the monarchy by any means necessary" on one late night TV chat show and slightly terrifying the luvvies.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 18, 2018)

Also the prison abolition podcast on Novara is quite good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Suggesting "Wearing My Rolex" as the new national anthem is great. That's better than getting into all the guff about verse two being about bashing your enemies and the song itself being the Queen rather than the country.
> 
> But it's not nearly as good as Martin Wright in full MA'AM mode simply saying "We want to abolish the monarchy by any means necessary" on one late night TV chat show and slightly terrifying the luvvies.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


>




I was less of a fan of that, I have to say. 

His current youtube vidcasts are very watchable but there is only so many times you finish with the point that everything is a bit shit and what we need is to get people out on the streets for some insurrection.


----------



## rekil (Jan 18, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> Think that one died when they took on Paul Mason.


Textbook Aaron. He was convinced the Green Party was the future back then. Now he's convinced that his dream of padding around number 10 and various ministries, probably in his socks like Joseph Stiglitz, is within his grasp.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> Laurie's _*privately educated*_ UCL grad sister was around..


But it must have been a scholarship shurely?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> Textbook Aaron. He was convinced the Green Party was the future back then. Now he's convinced that his dream of padding around number 10 and various ministries, probably in his socks like Joseph Stiglitz, is within his grasp.



The parliamentary road to fully automated luxury communism.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> Textbook Aaron. He was convinced the Green Party was the future back then. Now he's convinced that his dream of padding around number 10 and various ministries, probably in his socks like Joseph Stiglitz, is within his grasp.



He might still be better off with the forgiving Greens if he wants to be an MP — as far as I've heard it getting on the Labour slate's not an easy job when you've got criminal conviction baggage, haven't done the in-party time and made a lot of aggro waves on your way through...


----------



## LDC (Jan 18, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> He might still be better off with the forgiving Greens if he wants to be an MP — as far as I've heard it getting on the Labour slate's not an easy job when you've got criminal conviction baggage, haven't done the in-party time and made a lot of aggro waves on your way through...



I imagine he fancies himself as a maverick advisor rather than an MP...


----------



## rekil (Jan 18, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I imagine he fancies himself as a maverick advisor rather than an MP...


Yes and nothing screams maverick more than being unarsed with footwear in the office.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 18, 2018)

Hey I take my shoes off at work sometimes, especially when working on an important case with Ally McBeal.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just watched Ash Sarkar vs. Piers Morgan on Good Morning Britain.  FFS she didn't half faff about being coy about the national anthem and the monarchy. Where's Ian Bone when you need him?!



is piers morgan on daily morning tv (ie everyday?)?


----------



## LDC (Jan 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> is piers morgan on daily morning tv (ie everyday?)?



I have no fucking idea, nor do I want one.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> Amazing? It's unbelievable - people getting paid at _Red Pepper_?! articul8 say it ain't so!!!


It wasn't so in 2013 or at least he claimed they didn't 'get a penny' (ho ho) - i wonder if it's changed since and if so why/how?

Articul8 has some points/questions of his own on this sort of racket and the people involved:




			
				articul8 said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in a general analysis ("The new left commentariat") - looking at the conditions of how mainstream media selects them and how they relate to mainstream media, activists and "normals". Owen, Ellie, that ginger guy, Sunny, Laurie...
> 
> Maybe Zer0 will publish it


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 22, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> Not sure Laurie's particularly in with the Novara crew?


She is or at least was friends with James Butler.

Just find it a bit depressing that the self-declared radical left can't do any better than the BBC in terms of who they give opportunities to.

Job was advertised at 25k pro rata, 3 days a week. Not a fortune but paid left journalist positions are like hens teeth.


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 2, 2018)

Not sure if this guy is commentariat per se, but saw this on twitter and simply had to post:



*Rob Marchant*‏ @rob_marchant
Rob Marchant Retweeted Tom Blenkinsop

First they came for the council leaders. And I did not speak out. Because I was not a council leader.

Quite unbelievably crass, utterly tendentious, but the total loss of perspective is interesting


----------



## cantsin (Feb 2, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Not sure if this guy is commentariat per se, but saw this on twitter and simply had to post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



massive fuckwit


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2018)

Just some new labour holdout dick surely, ranting on about Momentum and Jezza loving the mullahs? There are many of them.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 3, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Not sure if this guy is commentariat per se, but saw this on twitter and simply had to post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He'd be the first to turn in the commies anyway


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 3, 2018)

Not important enough to be first against the wall, though.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Not sure if this guy is commentariat per se, but saw this on twitter and simply had to post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



always found the huge difference between Marchants' twitter biog photo, and his blog photo a bit strange :

Blogger: User Profile:  Rob Marchant

who has a complete " bloke in Sade's backing band" type makeover in what looks like their 40's +  ? 

weird centrist dad carry on


----------



## Horus Snacks (Feb 4, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> She is or at least was friends with James Butler.
> 
> Just find it a bit depressing that the self-declared radical left can't do any better than the BBC in terms of who they give opportunities to.
> 
> Job was advertised at 25k pro rata, 3 days a week. Not a fortune but paid left journalist positions are like hens teeth.


Isn't Eleanor at Novara her sister


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2018)

copliker said:


> They were all gr8 student m8s. Laurie tried to elbow her way onto Novara but failed and accused them of being sexists. Aaron said they wanted people that didn't already have columns and telly appearances and 100k twitter machine followers. As luck would have it, Laurie's privately educated UCL grad sister was around. See Workers' Girder's leftygoss pullout sections from 2013.



Novara probably also didnt want't a hopeless identity politics obsessed, posh, Milo loving, Corbo wavering, self regarding dullard


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2018)

Horus Snacks said:


> Isn't Eleanor at Novara her sister


Yes, discussed at length on last page.


----------



## Horus Snacks (Feb 4, 2018)

they're too hip and trendy for an old fart like me. Ifind them hard work watching. 

Ash is pretty smart, or seems to be, I don't really know because I find her points hard to follow. She can also be very abrasive while Aaron just seems to be Jeremy Corbyn's personal cheerleader.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 11, 2018)




----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2018)

That ash one made a proper narna of herself on  big questions this morning. Got a whole multi-racial/cross class crowd laughing at her after she said she was talking about 'class solidarity' after offering loads of top-down identity politics borderline racist nonsense. Gave me  some hope.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


>



Getting paid -  at last.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 11, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> That ash one made a proper narna of herself on  big questions this morning. Got a whole multi-racial/cross class crowd laughing at her after she said she was talking about 'class solidarity' after offering loads of top-down identity politics borderline racist nonsense. Gave me  some hope.



Interesting to hear two WC Asian lassies saying they didn't encounter racism growing up. They were obviously trying to make the point that power in this country is more complicated than the term "whiteness" would suggest but it all got dismissed as anecdotal evidence. I don't doubt their experiences, when me and this carer i worked with from Nepal moved to London from Inverness around the same time, both for studying, we were genuinely freaked out by the sudden education  we were getting on how to interact with other cultures. Both lacking an academic critique at the time we were saying "these people are like, really ...... racist! Why would you assume certain cultural differences just by looking at someone? What the fuck? Don't you just like,  talk to people????"  : )


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Interesting to hear two WC Asian lassies saying they didn't encounter racism growing up. They were obviously trying to make the point that power in this country is more complicated than the term "whiteness" would suggest but it all got dismissed as anecdotal evidence. I don't doubt their experiences, when me and this carer i worked with from Nepal moved to London from Inverness around the same time, both for studying, we were genuinely freaked out by the sudden education  we were getting on how to interact with other cultures. Both lacking an academic critique at the time we were saying "these people are like, really ...... racist! Why would you assume certain cultural differences just by looking at someone? What the fuck? Don't you just like,  talk to people????"  : )


It was. Was a revealing show in many ways that one.


----------



## Balbi (Feb 18, 2018)

The definitive explainer on Molly Crabapple, her “ride or die love” of a Nazi hacker, and her…

With Quinn Norton getting hired and then fired for the weev stuff, someone finally bothers going after Molly Crabapple over this.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 18, 2018)

Balbi said:


> The definitive explainer on Molly Crabapple, her “ride or die love” of a Nazi hacker, and her…
> 
> With Quinn Norton getting hired and then fired for the weev stuff, someone finally bothers going after Molly Crabapple over this.


Good read somewhat spoiled by random misconception  about Asperger's Syndrome thrown in. Does he have Asperger's, it seemed to come out of nowhere ?


----------



## Balbi (Feb 19, 2018)

*she, and yeah, dunno.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 19, 2018)

Balbi said:


> *she, and yeah, dunno.


No Weev obviously , did you read the whole thing?


----------



## crossthebreeze (Feb 19, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Good read somewhat spoiled by random misconception  about Asperger's Syndrome thrown in. Does he have Asperger's, it seemed to come out of nowhere ?


I think the implication is that its geek/hacker culture that's influenced by or aspergers (and/or that many geeks/hackers have aspergers).  But yeah the aspergers = no empathy trope is a harmful misconception.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Balbi said:


> The definitive explainer on Molly Crabapple, her “ride or die love” of a Nazi hacker, and her…
> 
> With Quinn Norton getting hired and then fired for the weev stuff, someone finally bothers going after Molly Crabapple over this.


Good piece that i feel bad about liking as she's been a consistent public voice in support of the syrian uprising (edit: and I'm now wondering why) . But the point of the piece is that you don't give people passes like that.

The Hare and the Hound is surely about the policing of class hierarchies not racial ones though.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 28, 2018)

.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Mar 29, 2018)

Who Does She Think She Is?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> Who Does She Think She Is?


Haha! Just played guess who the quote was from just now, I won


----------



## JimW (Mar 29, 2018)

I preferred her in the medium of twitter. Any read is bad enough but please not a long one.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2018)

I just closed the fucker down as soon as I saw 'long reads' and 'Laurie Penny' on the same page...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2018)

killer b said:


> I just closed the fucker down as soon as I saw 'long reads' and 'Laurie Penny' on the same page...


It’s got an Urban quote in it though! Go and see!


----------



## JimW (Mar 29, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> It’s got an Urban quote in it though! Go and see!


Saw that and stuck it in the search box but nothing turned up. Lost in the great board outage/post cull a while back or more of LP's accurate quoting? Oh, hang on, I don't give a shit.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 29, 2018)

I also won guess the quoted . It's also in the intro so you don't have to read the article.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2018)

JimW said:


> Saw that and stuck it in the search box but nothing turned up. Lost in the great board outage/post cull a while back or more of LP's accurate quoting? Oh, hang on, I don't give a shit.


It might be two posts in one but “hang Laurie Pennie” was butchersapron


----------



## rekil (Mar 29, 2018)

lauriepenny's article (same one she does over and over about herself and how successful she is) neglects to mention that she spent nearly a year championing a freaky wee nazi pest.



The US can lock up hackers, but it can't crush their spirit | Laurie Penny


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2018)

I stand  by my deadpan paen to her honesty btw.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 30, 2018)

Successful _and _important.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 30, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> Who Does She Think She Is?



One notes that she doesn't put the Urban quote in context, or mention her traducing of some longstanding Urbanites as racists on absolutely no evidence but her journalist _nous_. Poor Laurie, forever the victim, if such a public school, elite university, doors-opened-for-her type can be classed as a victim.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 31, 2018)

_I spent years studying and working hard and mum and dad spent much money, so that I can HAVE OPINIONS AND PUBLISH THEM and if you object to anything I say you're just a MEAN OLD MISOGYNIST like the whole internests because I'm A VERY IMPORTANT WOMAN with important opinions_.

Not such a long read. And self-pity is so radical.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> One notes that she doesn't put the Urban quote in context, or mention her traducing of some longstanding Urbanites as racists on absolutely no evidence but her journalist _nous_. Poor Laurie, forever the victim, if such a public school, elite university, doors-opened-for-her type can be classed as a victim.


She was only trying to explain things so that we'd lay off - nothing to do with her claiming we were all misogynists, or her promotion of weev, or her erroneous racism accusations. 

It was all us.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 1, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> She was only trying to explain things so that we'd lay off - nothing to do with her claiming we were all misogynists, or her promotion of weev, or her erroneous racism accusations.
> 
> It was all us.



Yes, yes it was. We few, we happy few, not amenable to brainwashing by liberal Laurie.


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2018)

The shirtless one. Laughing at stoner mural guy last week. Boosting this fraud today.


----------



## LDC (Apr 5, 2018)

Bastani is the worst thing about Novara, he's politically all over the shop, and watching/listening to him sometimes makes me think he's losing the plot a bit. His ego seems to be a bit out of control too, him and Walker as a double act are painful to watch.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 5, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Bastani is the worst thing about Novara, he's politically all over the shop, and watching/listening to him sometimes makes me think he's losing the plot a bit. His ego seems to be a bit out of control too, him and Walker as a double act are painful to watch.



Not sure I agree with this but only because there is _so much else_ wrong with Novara.


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2018)

Spoiler: It's Always Sunny On Novara


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 5, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> Who Does She Think She Is?



Sorry, who is that?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 5, 2018)

It's pretty low of Laurie Penny to bring an urb who's passed away up as evidence of how hard done by she has been. I almost felt sorry for until I got to that bit.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 5, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> It's pretty low of Laurie Penny to bring an urb who's passed away up as evidence of how hard done by she has been. I almost felt sorry for until I got to that bit.


Was duped into having another look to see where that was and seen this:



> That childlike belief in a natural limit to human malice is perhaps the most tenuous thread of privilege, because I can’t help noticing how many of those who have lived through years of abuse and still hold it are middle-class white girls, like me.



Oh my god fuck off!


----------



## cantsin (Apr 5, 2018)

copliker said:


> The shirtless one. Laughing at stoner mural guy last week. Boosting this fraud today.
> 
> 
> View attachment 131961



what was wrong with laughing @ Stoner Mural guy ?


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 5, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Bastani is the worst thing about Novara, he's politically all over the shop, and watching/listening to him sometimes makes me think he's losing the plot a bit. His ego seems to be a bit out of control too, him and Walker as a double act are painful to watch.



Oh I dunno, he's pretty consistent if you factor in that he's aiming to eventually become an MP.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Apr 5, 2018)

beware the future cops with their Novara Media flags.


----------



## rekil (Apr 5, 2018)

cantsin said:


> what was wrong with laughing @ Stoner Mural guy ?


Nothing. I was contrasting his correct position on mural crankery with his Murray endorsement which amongst other things is indicative of how he's somewhat more aligned with the loonosphere than he realises.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 5, 2018)

copliker said:


> Nothing. I was contrasting his correct position on mural crankery with his Murray endorsement which amongst other things is indicative of how he's somewhat more aligned with the loonosphere than he realises.



fairplay - I need to get better understanding of the heat vs Murray ( ie : spend more than 2 mins looking into it ) - but it's hard not to see his scepticism re: the whole Skirpal affair as understandable, given how the story's unfolding now .


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 5, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> Who Does She Think She Is?





MadeInBedlam said:


> Sorry, who is that?


----------



## agricola (Apr 9, 2018)

Caroline Criado Perez's pop at Neville Southall last night was somewhat bizarre.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2018)

Well she fucked that up - the progressive snob.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 9, 2018)

Criado-Perez, Ditum, Lewis - all dreadful anti-left/anti-working class, Labour 'moderates'/centrist liberals. Ditum supportively retweeted Rafael Behr backing an article by Dan Finkelstein the other day. I despair.


----------



## rekil (Apr 10, 2018)

Mr. Phd in social movements seems to have forgotten that just over 3 months ago in Iran, 20+ people were killed, hundreds were arrested, and the tories and Labour both said shit all. If memory serves, he pooh-poohed the whole brouhaha by sharing a bizarre taxi driver claim that the protests were motivated by people's lack of desire for frozen chicken.


----------



## sihhi (Apr 13, 2018)

Paul Mason is he actually a human or has he been replaced by a some sort of robot?

"Labour said no to Iraq,no to Vietnam"



The Labour party initiated action in Iraq.
The Labour party did not oppose Vietnam only opposed British service personnel action in Vietnam. 
During the period of the war, military collaboration and weapon transfers to the United States increased.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 13, 2018)

sihhi said:


> Paul Mason is he actually a human or has he been replaced by a some sort of robot?
> 
> "Labour said no to Iraq,no to Vietnam"
> 
> ...




Even the majority of the PLP voted for it, so what exactly is he talking about?


----------



## sihhi (Apr 13, 2018)

J Ed said:


> Even the majority of the PLP voted for it, so what exactly is he talking about?



He is lying.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 13, 2018)

sihhi said:


> He is lying.



Yes, but I'm just trying to work out what possible basis he might have for the lie... does he mean the membership? Something ele?


----------



## sihhi (Apr 13, 2018)

J Ed said:


> Yes, but I'm just trying to work out what possible basis he might have for the lie... does he mean the membership? Something ele?



In which case entirely meaningless as the membership of the Lib Dems, Conservatives, SNP also said no.


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2018)

For someone who spends so much time denouncing people as centrist melts and the like Aaron doesn't half come out with a load of old wet cobblers.



Spoiler: Enhance international institutions massively!








And for intersectionalistas, they don't seem to be very enthusiastic about letting any Syrians on their show when they're jabbering about Syria and the inevitable...



Spoiler: false flaaaags






.


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2018)

There's a very enjoyable commentariat meltdown on Twitter right now after Owen Jones' latest article. Jump in, I reckon it'll be raging all weekend.


----------



## rekil (May 13, 2018)

*F!r3b0><* 2.0


----------



## agricola (May 13, 2018)

copliker said:


> *F!r3b0><* 2.0
> 
> View attachment 135269



https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...andwidthz-pt-5.261392/page-3785#post-15552837


----------



## LDC (May 31, 2018)

The ego is now completely unleashed. How and why have the rest of the Novara gang let this happen...?

I give you... THE BASTANI FACTOR. I am not even joking.


----------



## Red Sky (May 31, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The ego is now completely unleashed. How and why have the rest of the Novara gang let this happen...?
> 
> I give you... THE BASTANI FACTOR. I am not even joking.




Unavailable.  A (suitably jaundiced) jist?


----------



## cantsin (May 31, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The ego is now completely unleashed. How and why have the rest of the Novara gang let this happen...?
> 
> I give you... THE BASTANI FACTOR. I am not even joking.




taken down  - quick summary ?


----------



## killer b (May 31, 2018)

Bastani with a cocaine sweat on.


----------



## killer b (May 31, 2018)

(I only watched the first 30 seconds, mind)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 31, 2018)

Just him wanking on about stuff in the news with a bit of bonkers stuff tacked on the end about lab grown meat.

Tommy Robinson is bad and should be in prison even though prison is bad and should be abolished but not right now obviously.

Italy. That journalist who wasn’t killed. Erm some other stuff. Oh yes “the media” and the Evening Standard commercial takeover. 

Support us for more of this stuff.


----------



## LDC (May 31, 2018)

I did wonder if it was a spoof for a bit, probably wise of Bastani to photo-shop it out of history.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 31, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I did wonder if it was a spoof for a bit, probably wise of Bastani to photo-shop it out of history.



He’ll be back next week and it will be worse. 

The future alternative media we all hoped for, but terrible.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 4, 2018)




----------



## cantsin (Jun 4, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


>




liked Sarkar 's 'lush go a little bit ACAB' prodding of that utter bell James Ball over the w/e -I like her, generally tbh.

Lets face it, "  “Walks like a supermodel. F***s like a champion. Luxury communism now!” is a whole lot more fun ( on paper) than we've had round these parts for a fair while.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 4, 2018)

'tame her'? Ugh.


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2018)

Build the brand, build the brand.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 4, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Build the brand, build the brand.



of course there's an element of that in it, Sarkar makes no bones about being up for enjoying herself, putting herself out there, but I don't see any attempt to compromise / fit more neatly into professional oppositionist roles etc - would take her over 1000 privately educated Graun hacks...or John Harris


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 4, 2018)

Ash was showing off her razor sharp intellect earlier this year


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2018)




----------



## mather (Jun 16, 2018)

J Ed said:


>




Err... because it saves people's lives and they would not be there without it.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 17, 2018)

J Ed said:


> Yes, but I'm just trying to work out what possible basis he might have for the lie... does he mean the membership? Something ele?


Honestly I think people are so used to the preference of pro “left” propaganda rather than facts he probs just thought he’d get away with it. Rightly so, He would. We are cracking our own skulls against walls now.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 13, 2018)

bring on the anti Novara moaners, but Ash Sarkar's ' I'm literally a communist you idiot' episode vs Piers Morgan on breakky ITV is a lot of commie fun ..... and this, from Elle frikin' magazine, today .....2018, we salute you, you mad bastard.

Today's Hero: This Girl Who Shouted 'I'm a Communist, You Idiot' at Piers Morgan


----------



## LDC (Jul 13, 2018)

cantsin said:


> bring on the anti Novara moaners, but Ash Sarkar's ' I'm literally a communist you idiot' episode vs Piers Morgan on breakky ITV is a lot of commie fun ..... and this, from Elle frikin' magazine, today .....2018, we salute you, you mad bastard.
> 
> Today's Hero: This Girl Who Shouted 'I'm a Communist, You Idiot' at Piers Morgan



Yeah that is brilliant. Respect to Ash, not least cos she didn't just flip out and punch Morgan or that fuck awful person on her left.

It's a meme-tastic quote.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 1, 2018)

Abi Wilkinson has been exposing D Finkelstein's involvement with the Islamophobic/fascist 'Gatestone Institute' of which I was unaware. Fink's mates try and dog pile her saying what a jolly nice chap he is, and she sees them off one by one. Several threads but will link one:





Good journalism and well done says I.


----------



## killer b (Aug 1, 2018)

It's been a total joy to watch, have to say.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 1, 2018)

all supported with reams of screen grabs, as the Fink tries desperately to deny , delete, double back, double down......

+ fine supporting role from a limp Aaronovitch as well, covering himself in glory as per


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 1, 2018)

Olly Kamm trying to threaten her w/ libel then deleting


----------



## cantsin (Aug 1, 2018)

The Pale King said:


> Olly Kamm trying to threaten her w/ libel then deleting



ffs, didnt see that


----------



## Balbi (Aug 1, 2018)

"Don't call me a racist scumbag. I'm not a scumbag." Incredible scenes.


----------



## The Pale King (Aug 1, 2018)

He is trying to frame it like she's only exposing his fascist links because she is a jew-hater. Disgusting insinuation - scumbag is dead right.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2018)

Can someone  set out the criticisms of Hope Not Hate please


----------



## killer b (Aug 24, 2018)

I think Notes from the Borderland have a lot of detail - Notes From The Borderland - Our problems with Searchlight/Hope Not Hate


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2018)

_Crapitalism lol. _

 



Spoiler: I'm surprised it took them this long.







20k a year private school, Oxford etc.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2018)

She was on that Politics, Theory, Other podcast a few weeks ago, thought she was pretty good tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2018)

I couldn't listen to more than five minutes because of the voice. I really did try.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 29, 2018)

killer b said:


> She was on that Politics, Theory, Other podcast a few weeks ago, thought she was pretty good tbh.



I think she is OK and knows her stuff as far as I can tell. I.e. she is posh but not a bullshitter.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 29, 2018)

Also that is a good podcast. I didn't listen to the SEYMOUR one about anti-semitism and Corbyn though because life is too short.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also that is a good podcast. I didn't listen to the SEYMOUR one about anti-semitism and Corbyn though because life is too short.


It was actually quite good  despite 75% of it being him saying exactly the same things he said 3 or 4 weeks previous  like he he was reading from an essay to a very lucky class.


----------



## rekil (Aug 29, 2018)

Crapitalism tho. Come on people.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2018)

yeah, that is a bit er crap.


----------



## Dragnet (Aug 29, 2018)

killer b said:


> She was on that Politics, Theory, Other podcast a few weeks ago, thought she was pretty good tbh.



Going off what I've heard so far, it's not a bad podcast, that. Haven't got round to listening to the one she was on yet, though. I'll give that a listen tonight. 

'Crapitalism' is shocking, though.


----------



## Toast Rider (Aug 30, 2018)

Oh it's not that bad. At least the video isn't 2 hours of Aron and the interminable Michael Walker droning on using words that sounds like they belong in a hipster phrase book ("I say Jolyon, are we on message to do? If not, can you solutions something while I finish my panini")


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2018)

Slightly worried about New Economics Foundation and Schumacher Institute and IPPR types fabianing their way into dominance of any public left economic discussions though and smuggling in their shitty keynianism as radical. Partly due to the way that many people on the left just haven't done their homework and think, leave it up to the _specialists_.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 30, 2018)

Toast Rider said:


> Oh it's not that bad. At least the video isn't 2 hours of Aron and the interminable Michael Walker droning on using words that sounds like they belong in a hipster phrase book ("I say Jolyon, are we on message to do? If not, can you solutions something while I finish my panini")



always hard to escape the suspicion that people that whinge on  about " HIPSTER"  < whatevers >" haven't really got a clue what they're talking about - eg : what are you actually trying to say here ?


----------



## Toast Rider (Aug 30, 2018)

cantsin said:


> always hard to escape the suspicion that people that whinge on  about " HIPSTER"  < whatevers >" haven't really got a clue what they're talking about - eg : what are you actually trying to say here ?



That I find Novara to speak more to a certain demographic than the broader working class.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 30, 2018)

Toast Rider said:


> That I find Novara to speak more to a certain demographic than the broader working class.



I may have missed the bit where Basto + co declared themselves the one and only authentic voice of the eternal Proletariat tbh


----------



## Toast Rider (Aug 30, 2018)

cantsin said:


> I may have missed the bit where Basto + co declared themselves the one and only authentic voice of the eternal Proletariat tbh


I don't get the point you're making, I don't do subtext I'm afraid.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 30, 2018)

is this the one that fucks like a champion?

i can't stand all of their voices tbh.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2018)

No, it's Grace Blakeley. She's an economist at the IPPR. Despite that she's quite interesting IMO.


----------



## rekil (Sep 2, 2018)

This was a day or two after the Levellers shitfest. I don't suppose anyone has got anything out of any of the Novara people about Williamson's Beeley boosting? It's like an annoying people's version of the omerta.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2018)

copliker said:


> This was a day or two after the Levellers shitfest



Eh youwhatnow?


----------



## rekil (Sep 2, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> Eh youwhatnow?


 Williamson, who has a pinned tweet of Sarkar introducing him as the 'Derby badman', was schmoozing with fascist and conspiraloon Beeley at the festival run by the Levellers a couple of days before this G op-ed appeared.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2018)

copliker said:


> Williamson, who has a pinned tweet of Sarkar introducing him as the 'Derby badman', was schmoozing with fascist and conspiraloon Beeley at the festival run by the Levellers a couple of days before this G op-ed appeared.


Some next level fuckedupness then


----------



## cantsin (Sep 6, 2018)

on a positive tip : Sarkar seriously crisp, punchy + unflinching  re : foundation of Israel on Pol Live yday :


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 7, 2018)

cantsin said:


> on a positive tip : Sarkar seriously crisp, punchy + unflinching  re : foundation of Israel on Pol Live yday :



You two rhetoric twins very much over-sold what would have been an alright 2 min clip.
I’m disappointed, non plussed, underwhelmed.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 7, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> You two rhetoric twins very much over-sold what would have been an alright 2 min clip.
> I’m disappointed, non plussed, underwhelmed.



in the context of a Politics Live lunchtime ' THE ANTI SEMITES ARE COMING '  clusterf*ck , I don't think we went too over the top tbf...


----------



## Toast Rider (Sep 7, 2018)

cantsin said:


> I may have missed the bit where Basto + co declared themselves the one and only authentic voice of the eternal Proletariat tbh


they are a media outlet, they impart information and analysis, there is an implicit assumption of authority within that.


----------



## Toast Rider (Sep 7, 2018)

dialectician said:


> is this the one that fucks like a champion?
> 
> i can't stand all of their voices tbh.


Bizzarre thing to put on a twitter account.

Perhaps she has awards for it


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Sep 7, 2018)

it's just branding shit. oh look at how i am down with the kids. except they're at least 13 years too late.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Sep 7, 2018)

oops double post.


----------



## Theisticle (Sep 9, 2018)

Here’s Sarkar defending those who defaced a wall of the Warsaw Ghetto with ‘Free Gaza-Palestine’ in 2010:



She rightly gets called out despite her protestations. Worth reading the exchanges with Mikey Franklin in full (all rather revealing).



Here’s some links about it in 2010:

Liberate all ghettos

The brazenness to target this place with pro-BDS stuff is also so unpleasant.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2018)

got to be honest - I just don't believe this sh*t... 'close friends', who are socialists, and suddenly start spouting comic book anti semitism ...just don't believe it


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2018)

as for A/S representing : " one of the biggest and most dangerous atrocities facing our country today.." ?


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2018)

cantsin said:


> got to be honest - I just don't believe this sh*t... 'close friends', who are socialists, and suddenly start spouting comic book anti semitism ...just don't believe it


I believe it.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2018)

cantsin said:


> as for A/S representing : " one of the biggest and most dangerous atrocities facing our country today.." ?




A good proportion of the commenters on that thread are fucking hoist by their own anti-semitic petard though.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 17, 2018)

Something similar happened to me 7/8 years ago, but it wasn't just one person, it was entire groups of activists all seeming to come out at once. It's the conspiracism that does it IMO. ''Just asking questions about 9/11'' seems to lead inexorably to ''Evil Rothschild Elites''. I've seen people I thought good allies go down there and never return. There are plenty of people still in that mindset who seem harmless enough .. till you catch them in the right mood and they let fly, and you finally see where their mind's been the last few years. This all has a long way to run yet IMO.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> A good proportion of the commenters on that thread are fucking hoist by their own anti-semitic petard though.



wldnt surprise me at all, and makes the whole thing doubly depressing.... complete sh*tshow


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2018)

killer b said:


> I believe it.



so you can imagine someone you know, genuinely on 'the left', who you presumably respected, cos they were a 'close friend' , who could  suddenly come out with something as ridiculous / stupid as ' the world is run by Jews' ?


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2018)

Yes I can.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2018)

killer b said:


> Yes I can.



ok


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2018)

you need to clear that shit out of your eyes mate. That kind of throwaway casual half-joking antisemitism is everywhere, including on the Labour left.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2018)

we must move in v different circles or sthn

( ps : " That kind of throwaway casual half-joking antisemitism is everywhere " - what does this refer to ? )


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2018)

cantsin said:


> we must move in v different circles or sthn
> 
> ( ps : " That kind of throwaway casual half-joking antisemitism is everywhere " - what does this refer to ? )


well, it's easy to imagine a Labour activist, after the recent 3-month long onslaught of antisemitism allegations in the national press and across all broadcasters, rolling their eyes and saying in a joking-not-joking way 'yeah but they run it all don't they?'. 

In fact, I don't really have to imagine it - I haven't heard those exact forms of words, but I've got friends who've come very close. Maybe I move in more racist circles than you, but I doubt it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 17, 2018)

killer b said:


> I believe it.


I completely believe it. I’ve had someone who was mostly an acquaintance but whom I talked politics with at work suddenly say “of course it’s all the Jews isn’t it”; I’ve had friends who really should fucking know better start talking about the “Jewish lobby” and how they control so much of the media. Let alone online, Jesus. And none of it was jokes.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 18, 2018)

we had someone mention 'the jewish lobby' on a whatsappgroup recently ( he meant 'the israel lobby' apparently which at least has some factual base,  but still sounds bollocks, was put straight v quickly, and he wont be  allowed 
near any public facing stuff going fwd ( not a friends thing ) - but that's shit politics, 'jews run the world ' is straight up a/s conspira-bobbins, and can't imagine a friend saying it


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2018)

LAUNCH OF NEW CULTURE, ARTS AND POLITICS JOURNAL: DRUGSTORE CULTURE - CHARLES FINCH


this is great. d'ancunt


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> LAUNCH OF NEW CULTURE, ARTS AND POLITICS JOURNAL: DRUGSTORE CULTURE - CHARLES FINCH
> 
> 
> this is great. d'ancunt


Ha yes. This is hilarious. This appears to be the opening paragraph of the opening article, with references to red-hot zeitgeist The Commitments. Also an interview with Ruth Davidson!


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

cantsin said:


> we had someone mention 'the jewish lobby' on a whatsappgroup recently ( he meant 'the israel lobby' apparently which at least has some factual base,  but still sounds bollocks, was put straight v quickly, and he wont be  allowed
> near any public facing stuff going fwd ( not a friends thing ) - but that's shit politics, 'jews run the world ' is straight up a/s conspira-bobbins, and can't imagine a friend saying it


'Mistaking' the Israeli lobby for _The Jewish Lobby_ is straight up antisemitism too, tbf.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> 'Mistaking' the Israeli lobby for _The Jewish Lobby_ is straight up antisemitism too, tbf.



agreed


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

That said: I don't think it's an unforgivable mistake to make, and one of the problems both with the tenor of the debate and with the wagon circling that goes on is that it makes it difficult to challenge these kind of ideas effectively.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> 'Mistaking' the Israeli lobby for _The Jewish Lobby_ is straight up antisemitism too, tbf.


Which makes it all the more ironic that Israel is moving ever closer to defining itself as a Jewish state


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

I'm not sure that the conversation benefits much from talking about these kinds of _ironies_ at these points tbh. Verging on whataboutery.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure that the conversation benefits much from talking about these kinds of _ironies_ at these points tbh. Verging on whataboutery.


You what now?


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

I don't think saying 'but Israel!' to every discussion on left-wing antisemitism helps the debate. The opposite in fact.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 18, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> LAUNCH OF NEW CULTURE, ARTS AND POLITICS JOURNAL: DRUGSTORE CULTURE - CHARLES FINCH
> 
> this is great. d'ancunt



It's like someone tried to physically manifest the essence of 1990s cool but made some typographical errors and got the spirit of Pseud's Corner instead.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> I don't think saying 'but Israel!' to every discussion on left-wing antisemitism helps the debate. The opposite in fact.


You don't think the increasing right wing ethnocentrism of Israeli politics has an influence on what people think around the Jewish lobby etc?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 18, 2018)

_Israeli _and _Jew _are not interchangeable terms, whatever the Israeli state says about itself and the rest of the world. That's the point.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 18, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> _Israeli _and _Jew _are not interchangeable terms, whatever the Israeli state says about itself and the rest of the world. That's the point.


It's not about what you think is it. It's about what message Israel is sending.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

TruXta said:


> You don't think the increasing right wing ethnocentrism of Israeli politics has an influence on what people think around the Jewish lobby etc?


Sure it does, and it's useful when trying to explain or analyse what drives left-wing antisemitism: at the moment though, we still seem to be trying to explain that left wing antisemitism is even a problem. In the context of that conversation, I don't think going on about the actions of the Israeli government is very helpful.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

Also, I expect the Israeli government love it that every conversation about antisemitism ends up being about Israel.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure that the conversation benefits much from talking about these kinds of _ironies_ at these points tbh. Verging on whataboutery.


I don't think it's whataboutery. It's a strange convergence of interests, to be sure, but it is very clear that the current Israeli regime attempts to make out that anti-Israel criticism is anti-Jew criticism. It does this systematically all the time. But, as Truxta says, it's not so odd perhaps that two apparently opposed  ethnocentric ideologies should mirror one another.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> Sure it does, and it's useful when trying to explain or analyse what drives left-wing antisemitism: at the moment though, we still seem to be trying to explain that left wing antisemitism is even a problem. In the context of that conversation, I don't think going on about the actions of the Israeli government is very helpful.


Isn't the central question here 'How do we go on about the actions of the Israeli government'?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> Sure it does, and it's useful when trying to explain or analyse what drives left-wing antisemitism: at the moment though, we still seem to be trying to explain that left wing antisemitism is even a problem. In the context of that conversation, I don't think going on about the actions of the Israeli government is very helpful.


Hmmmmmmmmm. I struggle to see how you can have that conversation without some reference to current Israeli politics. Anyway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Hmmmmmmmmm. I struggle to see how you can have that conversation without some reference to current Israeli politics. Anyway.


The Israeli regime wants to shut down criticism of its actions and one of the main methods it uses to do this is to brand the criticism 'antisemitic'. They do this using whataboutery, ironically enough: you criticise us for murdering people, but what about all these other murderous regimes? You single us out cos antisemitism'. That's their method, and any discussion of antisemitism on the left has to bear that in mind.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Israeli regime wants to shut down criticism of its actions and one of the main methods it uses to do this is to brand the criticism 'antisemitic'. They do this using whataboutery, ironically enough: you criticise us for murdering people, but what about all these other murderous regimes? You single us out cos antisemitism'. That's their method, and any discussion of antisemitism on the left has to bear that in mind.


This was my point really. Sure, it's impossible to discuss without some reference to Israeli govt actions: but how we talk about it, and when is important, for strategic reasons as much as anything else. Take a little care and they aren't able to.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2018)

Ok. We appear to be furiously agreeing.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2018)

THIS IS AMAZING.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 18, 2018)

TruXta said:


> It's not about what you think is it. It's about what message Israel is sending.



In what sense? That they desperately want 100% conflation of _Jew_ with _Israeli?_ Well of course they do, why wouldn't they? But why anyone anywhere pretends to take this desperation as anything other than desperation is beyond me.

Well no, of course it's not actually _beyond me_; I do get it. It's a super convenient pretext for a lot of views I find disgusting, as expressed both inside and outside Israel.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2018)

Jacobin Accused of Reneging on Wage Deal in British Takeover of...

Workers say that Sunkara promised that if workers took a settlement of only 70% of the back wages that they were owed that he would bring them back as staffers after taking over the publication. However, Sunkara in a statement to Payday confirmed that he would not bring the staffers back.

The workers in a series of open letters have accused Sunkara of lying to them and simply taking over the publication to expand Jacobin’s content reach into European markets under the Tribune’s prestigious name.

“In the capitalist world someone who buys an ailing company and dumps its committed workers is known as an asset-stripper or robber baron, but at least they don’t claim to be socialists,” said former Tribune employee Ian Hernon.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 1, 2018)

edit / delete


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 1, 2018)

two days ago he was doing the 'commies got hitler in' thing off the back of various media heads deciding to trash Rosa Luxemburg, as Owen Jones used the 'socialism or barbarism' line

these people.


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2018)

Katerji called Murray a racist conspiracy theorist. The 100% loon Patrick Henningsen, who was babbling away with Gilad Atzmon about jerusalemite domination, jewish power, Soros, and the unjustly vilified free speech site Gab on his show the day after the synagogue massacre, jumped in to claim he will help with Murray's legal  expenses. Oz's shouty libdemmery gives me a headache but it's no contest as to which side should be supported here.

Just saw that cantsin deleted his post. Dunno why but I'll delete if necessary. I predict that Murray bottles it anyway.

e2a: He also accused Michael Walker and Novara generally of boosting 'racist conspiracy theorists from Craig Murray to John Pilger'. Dunno bout the rest of them but Bastani has certainly pushed Murray guff. They worship Williamson.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 1, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Jacobin Accused of Reneging on Wage Deal in British Takeover of...
> 
> Workers say that Sunkara promised that if workers took a settlement of only 70% of the back wages that they were owed that he would bring them back as staffers after taking over the publication. However, Sunkara in a statement to Payday confirmed that he would not bring the staffers back.
> 
> ...


I met Sunkara recently and was not at all impressed - this doesn't really surprise me. Certainly on the day I met him he seemed more business-minded than socialism-minded.

I've never been impressed with Jacobin's schtick of 'Here's the marxist interpretation of everything' anyway, but they do have some good content and it's a shame the management isn't better. I've also heard of a woman (friend of the person I spoke to) who left the US operation because she felt she was being treated so badly.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2018)

I had no idea celebrity rapist Owen Oysten was the previous owner of Tribune. 

What's the current situation on that story? There was some heavy pushback from Burtenshaw & Sunkara claiming that the story wasn't true, but I've not seen a full response from them - I had a look through the new issue the other week and thought it was ok. Some good people writing for them who I'd expect better of if the claims are true...


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 1, 2018)

They got a proper celebrity line-up to write for the first issue - I don't imagine they can keep that up.

I don't know anything about the previous owner, but (genuine question) does the possible dodginess of the previous owner matter?


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2018)

it isn't possible, he's a convicted rapist. I dunno if it matters, I just thought it was interesting - Oyston owns a lot of things round here (Blackpool football club, an estate agent, the building my ex runs her business out of, loads of other things besides) so it was a surprise to see he also used to own Tribune.

I wasn't talking about the celebrity writers fwiw, some of the non-celebrity articles were much more interesting.


----------



## hot air baboon (Nov 1, 2018)

absolutely no idea what's going on here


----------



## cantsin (Nov 1, 2018)

hot air baboon said:


> absolutely no idea what's going on here
> 
> View attachment 151426
> 
> ...



at at a guess, same as what's going on every evening round Frannie B's, once it's over the yard arm - her para/conspira Zarb sock puppet shchtick suggests it's all moving up a notch, and it's starting to all feel less sustainable even in the near to medium term imo....an Eddie Marsan style exit might be on the cards, or some quiet time in a nice place in the countryside  etc.

Possibly more concerning are the FBPE weirdos lining up behind her on there tbh...total mess.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 1, 2018)

copliker said:


> Katerji called Murray a racist conspiracy theorist. The 100% loon Patrick Henningsen, who was babbling away with Gilad Atzmon about jerusalemite domination, jewish power, Soros, and the unjustly vilified free speech site Gab on his show the day after the synagogue massacre, jumped in to claim he will help with Murray's legal  expenses. Oz's shouty libdemmery gives me a headache but it's no contest as to which side should be supported here.
> 
> Just saw that cantsin deleted his post. Dunno why but I'll delete if necessary. I predict that Murray bottles it anyway.
> 
> e2a: He also accused Michael Walker and Novara generally of boosting 'racist conspiracy theorists from Craig Murray to John Pilger'. Dunno bout the rest of them but Bastani has certainly pushed Murray guff. They worship Williamson.



fuck, appreciate your deletion,v decent of you squire -  in retrospect, I probably didn't need to at all...but I quickly found the deleted / protected Katerji tweets, and then just sunk into a quagmire of the Assadist drivel all over the t/ls of the pro Murrayites...ended up in a stupid debate with a Corbyn supporter RTing Eva Bartlett, had to scroll for 1 min down her t/l  to find the inevitable RTs of Red Brown stuff...blows my mind tbh, and if there's one thing I'd love to do , it would be to have it out (constructively ) with her lot  / Chris Williamson etc, just to get some idea of wtf they're on here - am lost, I can't even find their defence of their positions ( prob need to look deeper )


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I met Sunkara recently and was not at all impressed - this doesn't really surprise me. Certainly on the day I met him he seemed more business-minded than socialism-minded.
> 
> I've never been impressed with Jacobin's schtick of 'Here's the marxist interpretation of everything' anyway, but they do have some good content and it's a shame the management isn't better. I've also heard of a woman (friend of the person I spoke to) who left the US operation because she felt she was being treated so badly.


More developments here - from other more weighty journal he publishes:



> We, the undersigned, stand in solidarity with contributors to Catalyst protesting the arbitrary coup carried out by the journal’s publisher Bhaskar Sunkara and its co-editor Vivek Chibber in order to give Chibber monopoly control over the journal by removing journal founder Robert Brenner from his position as co-editor.




Some proper heavyweight names in that list of signees. Total academic dominance of course.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 8, 2018)

Bastani has his own show on Novara now and has brought forth the wrath of Tom Watson in a transparently click bait trolling of the Royal British Legion.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2018)

I'm mostly in favour of trolling the RBL tbf


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2018)

I wish bastani wasn't such a massive bell tho.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 8, 2018)

killer b said:


> I'm mostly in favour of trolling the RBL tbf



Well someone needs to do it, for sure. Presumably he has enough self-awareness to know that he could potentially get Ian Bone outside Jacob Rees Mogg's gaff levels of attention for it though?


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2018)

I don't think Bastani is much blessed with self-awareness, no. He's the David Brent of the hard left.


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 12, 2018)

I had no idea until recently that Bastani was 34. Bring back the days of Aaron Peters praising IDS or him working for David Miliband’s 2010 campaign. 

I am all for trolling the RBL but his arguments were just open goals for the Tory press. 

Retweeting this nonsense is also hilarious. Novara eh.


----------



## Theisticle (Nov 16, 2018)

More Lexit bollocks from Novara.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> Williamson, who has a pinned tweet of Sarkar introducing him as the 'Derby badman', was schmoozing with fascist and conspiraloon Beeley at the festival run by the Levellers a couple of days before this G op-ed appeared.



u can't be a badman if you're from Derby my god what is the world coming to. Badman is only London. Not Essex, Not Surrey, not Bristol, not Brum, not Leeds, not Manchester. Not even West London. not even East London in 2 years time even.


----------



## mather (Nov 20, 2018)

killer b said:


> I don't think Bastani is much blessed with self-awareness, no. He's the David Brent of the hard left.



That's an insult to David Brent.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 20, 2018)

Theisticle said:


>



Truly the Claire & Fiona Fox de notre temps


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

wot? im an idiotic burned out white label (artist alias - untitled b2) technohead and have no idea what that pop culture reference means.

Kinda dispiriting to see the boogyman of the banks and greedy financeers dominating public discussion but comes with the territory i guess.



> The writer and broadcaster Grace Blakeley has been appointed an economics commentator of the New Statesman. Blakeley is currently on sabbatical from IPPR, where she will continue as a research fellow, and is writing a book, Stolen: How finance took control of our economy and corrupted our politics (Repeater Books).




Title sounds like something straight out of a nazbol pamphlet tbh.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 20, 2018)

Theisticle said:


> More Lexit bollocks from Novara.




in that 40 secs of simple, essentially self evident, reflection on Brexit/Lexit as it now is, where was the ' bollocks' in yr view ?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

Imagine being so shit that you have to use the same fake name/brand as your sister. And putting on the poor mouth while you're at it.  Theisticle is, of course, bollocks and doesn't get what this thread is.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2018)

Get her on patreon and she can disappear like her sister too.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

We can't stuff everyones mouth with gold.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2018)

I guess she has another few years of grift & brand building before that would work anyway


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

i was gonna ask if the penny was coincidental. incestuous. 'my family have been labour voters for 60 years.'


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2018)

It isn't incestuousness, it's privilege.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

Now we're back on track.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

killer b said:


> It isn't incestuousness, it's privilege.



Same thing these days tbh lol. is her voice as annoying as her sisters?


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2018)

It's the same voice. 

I think calling it _incest_ makes these kinds of patterns of power and privilege sound weird and unusual, whereas they're not - they're totally normal and natural, and how the world has been arranged since forever.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

killer b said:


> It's the same voice.
> 
> I think calling it _incest_ makes these kinds of patterns of power and privilege sound weird and unusual, whereas they're not - they're totally normal and natural, and how the world has been arranged since forever.


Indeed, then they tell us they made the water we're forced to swim in.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

'as many fascists with nice suits.'

switch off.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

killer b said:


> It's the same voice.
> 
> I think calling it _incest_ makes these kinds of patterns of power and privilege sound weird and unusual, whereas they're not - they're totally normal and natural, and how the world has been arranged since forever.



fair point. tho i was refering specifically to family leftism. I don't come from a leftist family at all and people find that strange.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Imagine being so shit that you have to use the same fake name/brand as your sister. And putting on the poor mouth while you're at it.  Theisticle is, of course, bollocks and doesn't get what this thread is.



it's a bit baffling / jarring just how posh Novara feels like it's getting with Blakely and Penny now, in addition to Pierce - all v bright folk, but feels like a wrong turn to be making after the Bastano / Sarkar origins ( and Walker ).


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

cantsin said:


> it's a bit baffling / jarring just how posh Novara feels like it's getting with Blakely and Penny now added to Pierce - all v bright folk, but feels like a wrong turn to be making after the Bastano / Sarkar origins ( and Walker ).


Got to get serious as they approach the halls of power. And nothing does serious like a private school voice and airy confidence. That said, i never watch/listen to them so it's all the same shit to me.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2018)

Penny has been there for years tbf.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> That said, i never watch/listen to them so it's all the same shit to me.


also this.


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 20, 2018)

killer b said:


> What's the current situation on that story? There was some heavy pushback from Burtenshaw & Sunkara claiming that the story wasn't true, but I've not seen a full response from them - I had a look through the new issue the other week and thought it was ok. Some good people writing for them who I'd expect better of if the claims are true...



There's a statement up here if ya didnt see it, unless that's what ya meant by pushback


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 21, 2018)

cantsin said:


> in that 40 secs of simple, essentially self evident, reflection on Brexit/Lexit as it now is, where was the ' bollocks' in yr view ?


I hope that Basto guy is paying you for all this weird PR


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 21, 2018)

that technology will be the salvation of us all and open the pearly gates to jannah book has been delayed I see. I was under the impression it was supposed to come out this year. Is this the joke? fully automated luxury delay?


----------



## cantsin (Nov 21, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I hope that Basto guy is paying you for all this weird PR



top bantz fam,  + feel free to address the question Thisticle swerved while you're here / getting involved etc


----------



## cantsin (Nov 21, 2018)

dialectician said:


> that technology will be the salvation of us all and open the pearly gates to jannah book has been delayed I see. I was under the impression it was supposed to come out this year. Is this the joke? fully automated luxury delay?



just looked, amazon says June -  the cover feels like a messy blob when see at this scale 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fully-Automated-Luxury-Communism-Manifesto/dp/1786632624


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Blimey the future is looking very 2015 isn't it?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 21, 2018)

inventing the future  should have come out in 1993 tbh when they were cribbing their ideas from electronic music massively speeding up.

thought it was ever so quaint when my mates started talking about it. the other day i found out i have 24 mutuals with one of the righters and i realised that day that eventually facebook will be cause for trauma again. it's inevitable. 

just listen to speedcore instead.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 21, 2018)

cantsin said:


> top bantz fam,  + feel free to address the question Thisticle swerved while you're here / getting involved etc


Theisticle was getting on my nerves, i typed something then thought better of it. 
There’s not much that doesn’t seem to get on my nerves these days


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2018)

I just saw this


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 25, 2018)

killer b said:


> I just saw this View attachment 153536


It’s a shame, I have a feeling those three would be an unstoppable trio in terms of furthering each other’s interests. Woe!


----------



## cantsin (Nov 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> I just saw this View attachment 153536



not sure what Maugham has got to do with 'the left'


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2018)

It's glorious on so many levels. That Maugham imagines himself to be on the left at all brought forth the first snort of derision: that he imagines Bragg, Jones and himself as the perfect round table to sort out a unified way forward brought another. 

Then there's the tragic edge of him being blanked by Billy Bragg. It's just beautiful.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> I just saw this View attachment 153536


Priceless. 

Maugham is missing a trick though. No women. If he wants the full, diverse range of opinion, he needs to sign up Laurie Penny, Ellie Penny and the EU Supergirl.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 26, 2018)

> I remember very little about her, except that she let us watch cartoons when we were supposed to be doing our homework, and that she happened to be a Beatles fan. In an act of charity the magnitude of which she will never know, she dubbed a cassette tape for my brother and me with Abbey Road on one side and Let it Be on the other. Never mind that the latter is the worst of the dozen albums they released; for reasons not entirely musical, my brother and I became obsessed with the Beatles.



oh, fuck off.

https://believermag.com/logger/2016-08-10-packing-my-library/


----------



## Libertad (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> oh, fuck off.
> 
> https://believermag.com/logger/2016-08-10-packing-my-library/



Blame Phil Spector for that.


----------



## rekil (Nov 27, 2018)

BBC One - This Week, 22/11/2018, Lexit: The left's strategy for Brexit

Authentic working class bit at the 1 min 50 sec mark.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 28, 2018)

The far right is marching for Brexit. Will the left stand against it? | Michael Chessum

Makes Lindsay German look like the voice of reason. Should have given him an earful when he came to my uni but i was too busy eating tesco sarma.


----------



## chilango (Nov 28, 2018)

copliker said:


> BBC One - This Week, 22/11/2018, Lexit: The left's strategy for Brexit
> 
> Authentic working class bit at the 1 min 50 sec mark.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 28, 2018)

copliker said:


> BBC One - This Week, 22/11/2018, Lexit: The left's strategy for Brexit
> 
> Authentic working class bit at the 1 min 50 sec mark.


That was well worth the wait *dying*


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 28, 2018)

Deffo needs practise there. Its not quite the two-hander (last seen : zac goldsmith) but is still bad


----------



## chilango (Nov 28, 2018)

This is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 28, 2018)

straight question : inevitable snarklolz aside ( perfectly legit, it's what we're here for etc )  does anyone have a word to say about Blakely / Novara's line on this,  ie : the 'Green New Deal ' element being worked into the case for Lexit ?


----------



## chilango (Nov 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> straight question : inevitable snarklolz aside ( perfectly legit, it's what we're here for etc )  does anyone have a word to say about Blakely / Novara's line on this,  ie : the 'Green New Deal ' element being worked into the case for Lexit ?



The whole video - passing reference to nationalisation whilst pretending to sip "a pint" aside - was very pro-business, no threat to capital honest, wasnt it?


----------



## cantsin (Nov 28, 2018)

chilango said:


> The whole video - passing reference to nationalisation whilst pretending to sip "a pint" aside - was very pro-business, no threat to capital honest, wasnt it?



really depends what the reality of " a transformation in the nature of ownership" actually amounted to, ie : how much 'nationalisation' was involved, what the compulsory purchase / compensation structures looked liked, and what the  'overhauled ' ownership structures were going to be going fwd - at one end of the scale, a truly radical approach to all this could be transformational ( on many levels, though undoubtedly not on the scale many of us actually believe possible /desirable ) and wld by, its very nature, constitute a ' threat to capital ' as is it is now, whilst giving us / our descendants some chance of swerving climateaggeddoon.


Arguably, none of the above would be even doable, on paper, from within the EU as is it now is.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 1, 2018)

complete betrayal (i mean was it ever there?) of internationalism from our decolonial socialist cambridge professor. With coloured friends like these you don't need white enemies. public fb post so i'm taking liberties. my status underneath.





> yes because contemporary fascism doesn't have a multicultural dimension to it does it? I'm fucking unemployed, brown, (from a muslim background actually, are you horrified by the smell of quranic mummification and decay?) disabled, micro-managed by your glorious mental health services and I'm still bothering to try and do my homework. the cambridge professor is telling us uncultured brown londoners to bow to their elders, though.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 1, 2018)

not sure if JoB qualifies as 'commentariat', but his politics suck...


----------



## Quote (Dec 1, 2018)

Crusading journalism would be putting pressure on the government to adequately fund the bloody NHS.

But why bother to actually pay people to do a job, just get in a load of volunteers and save some more money. It’s only the health service after all.

“Anyone fancy performing a heart bypass? Yeah, you with the mop...”


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2018)

He’s certainly doubling down on the scab thing.



I recognise the name but he’s in the random journo bucket for me.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 2, 2018)

This man has no apparent knowledge of political history. That headline...



Our politicians once told the truth, now voters are treated as children | Nick Cohen


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 2, 2018)

cantsin said:


> not sure if JoB qualifies as 'commentariat', but his politics suck...



Hey! I visited the Brexit thread with that, mainly to troll the people on there that kept sharing his shite. Walloper.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 2, 2018)

Cohen predicts a crisis of trust in politics coming. As if that ship hadn't sailed some time ago for vast amounts of people. Lets just gloss over his 'sure churchill was a racist, but at least he was straight talking' bit


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 3, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> This man has no apparent knowledge of political history. That headline...
> 
> 
> 
> Our politicians once told the truth, now voters are treated as children | Nick Cohen



just like that cretin Hitchens. never been of any use. I do everything to ignore him, even in he snark department. got a high rep when i used to hang around the council of ex muslims forum and never understood why. Is Namazie still involved with that? don't think so. Is she even still in radical politics? really out of touch with them for all i know the forum could be dead just like the majority of 00s message boards.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 3, 2018)

Bastano deliberately trolling this thread :


----------



## agricola (Dec 3, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> Cohen predicts a crisis of trust in politics coming. As if that ship hadn't sailed some time ago for vast amounts of people. Lets just gloss over his 'sure churchill was a racist, but at least he was straight talking' bit



At least we should celebrate Nick Cohen being able to surprise even the people who are familiar with his work.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 3, 2018)

dialectician said:


> just like that cretin Hitchens. never been of any use. I do everything to ignore him, even in he snark department. got a high rep when i used to hang around the council of ex muslims forum and never understood why. Is Namazie still involved with that? don't think so. Is she even still in radical politics? really out of touch with them for all i know the forum could be dead just like the majority of 00s message boards.



Namazie is still involved with the ex-Muslims stuff/One Law for All. I think their forum is dead but they are very active on Twitter (but assume most tweets are written by Namazie).


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 3, 2018)

think that stuff got way too think tanky tbh. ah well.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2018)

When reading tweets by Nick Cohen I often find myself thinking _got to be a parody, there's no blue tick_. But no. It's really him every time.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Dec 9, 2018)

Carole Cadwalladr is doing a very good impression of a conspiraloon type at the moment.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 9, 2018)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Carole Cadwalladr is doing a very good impression of a conspiraloon type at the moment.


as if the liberal russian hysteria (AKA dems miss the cold war)was ever going to stay hosed in the direction of the right. Its twelve degrees of separation stuff isn't it. Seamus Milne shared a coffee with etc


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2018)

did you all see this morning's Daily Record story re: corbyn/milne/russia btw? 

Secret Scottish-based office led infowars attack on Labour and Jeremy Corbyn


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 10, 2018)

killer b said:


> did you all see this morning's Daily Record story re: corbyn/milne/russia btw?
> 
> Secret Scottish-based office led infowars attack on Labour and Jeremy Corbyn


I have no words.


----------



## comrade spurski (Dec 11, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> This man has no apparent knowledge of political history. That headline...
> 
> 
> 
> Our politicians once told the truth, now voters are treated as children | Nick Cohen




funny that...
when Blair was lying through his teeth about why there needed to be a war with Iraq he became one of the the liars biggest cheer leaders while labelling all opposed to the war as being fascist sympathisers.


----------



## tim (Dec 11, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I have no words.



Don't worry there's a government funded think-tank that will make something up and attribute it to you.


----------



## rekil (Dec 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> did you all see this morning's Daily Record story re: corbyn/milne/russia btw?
> 
> Secret Scottish-based office led infowars attack on Labour and Jeremy Corbyn



How A Murky Row Over Russia, Jeremy Corbyn And A 'Psyops Campaign' Went Mainstream

The main evidence of this 'infowars attack on Labour and Corbyn' seems to be a tweet to a link of a Katerji new statesman article, the essence of which has been discussed on here many times. I suspect that Williamson getting caught cosying up to the wretched Beeley has something to do with it. Another case of people who should know better getting mugged by loons.


----------



## killer b (Dec 18, 2018)

Thanks for that - interesting stuff. Should have had a dig before posting it tbh...


----------



## Libertad (Dec 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> How A Murky Row Over Russia, Jeremy Corbyn And A 'Psyops Campaign' Went Mainstream
> 
> The main evidence of this 'infowars attack on Labour and Corbyn' seems to be a tweet to a link of a Katerji new statesman article, the essence of which has been discussed on here many times. I suspect that Williamson getting caught cosying up to the wretched Beeley has something to do with it. Another case of people who should know better getting mugged by loons.



KittySJones has a take on this as well:

Authoritarian UK government is funding military grade psyops to smear and calumniate HM’s opposition


----------



## cantsin (Dec 18, 2018)

copliker said:


> How A Murky Row Over Russia, Jeremy Corbyn And A 'Psyops Campaign' Went Mainstream
> 
> The main evidence of this 'infowars attack on Labour and Corbyn' seems to be a tweet to a link of a Katerji new statesman article, the essence of which has been discussed on here many times. I suspect that Williamson getting caught cosying up to the wretched Beeley has something to do with it. Another case of people who should know better getting mugged by loons.



what would the Williamson / Beeley ( one tweet afaik) love-in have to do with any of this ?


----------



## rekil (Dec 18, 2018)

cantsin said:


> what would the Williamson / Beeley ( one tweet afaik) love-in have to do with any of this ?


I could be wrong but I think it was a nothing story until Williamson went on RT's 'Going Underground' show at the end of last month to talk it up breathlessly, then the papers picked it up shortly afterwards. He and the entire Beeley loonsphere have been banging on about it non stop since then. I expect they see it as a vindication of all the nonsense they pump out. And just because we've only seen that one tweet where Williamson endorses Beeley at the Levellers shitshow, it doesn't mean they're not in regular communication. They follow each other on the twitter machine so who knows what's going on there. This doesn't really belong in this thread does it.  

(Laurie's patreon is down to $3500 btw )


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 23, 2018)

This could go on various threads but with this I think JK Rowling has earned herself a place on this thread. Brace yourselves.


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 23, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> This could go on various threads but with this I think JK Rowling has earned herself a place on this thread. Brace yourselves.




That's some deeply strange and self-aggrandising shit (is she supposed to be Christ in this?). She's gone badly wrong somewhere along the way


----------



## killer b (Dec 23, 2018)

I'd say it was the FBPE brainworms, but tbh she's always been a cock


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 23, 2018)




----------



## Threshers_Flail (Dec 29, 2018)

This guy.


----------



## rekil (Dec 30, 2018)

Threshers_Flail said:


> This guy.


He has apparently just suggested that Rachel Riley of all people is involved in a shadowy coordinated campaign against him/Williamson/Corbyn operating 'through WhatsApp groups and backchannels'. Are Countdown and 8 Out Of 10 Cats fronts for coded instructions from Soros?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 30, 2018)

copliker said:


> He has apparently just suggested that Rachel Riley of all people is involved in a shadowy coordinated campaign against him/Williamson/Corbyn operating 'through WhatsApp groups and backchannels'. Are Countdown and 8 Out Of 10 Cats fronts for coded instructions from Soros?


I did just now see Rachel Riley tweeting some batshit stuff about him mind


----------



## cantsin (Dec 31, 2018)

copliker said:


> He has apparently just suggested that Rachel Riley of all people is involved in a shadowy coordinated campaign against him/Williamson/Corbyn operating 'through WhatsApp groups and backchannels'. Are Countdown and 8 Out Of 10 Cats fronts for coded instructions from Soros?



Riley's dismal, and the whole thing is pretty synched up - fuck her / Jeremy Duns etc, utter w*nkers


----------



## rekil (Dec 31, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> I did just now see Rachel Riley tweeting some batshit stuff about him mind





cantsin said:


> Riley's dismal, and the whole thing is pretty synched up - fuck her / Jeremy Duns etc, utter w*nkers


The doctor left himself wide open for this treatment by ganging up with loons. He has an out of control ego and seems besotted by the prospect of having some proximity to power in a labour government. No marks like Duns and the like are irrelevant and don't change that.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 3, 2019)

The class snobbery.


----------



## greenfield (Jan 3, 2019)

Theisticle said:


> The class snobbery.




That's priceless


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 3, 2019)

I smell an article coming on.

One of the few people who've blocked me on Twitter btw - I have no idea why, I'm pretty sure I've never interacted with her at all.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 4, 2019)

#FBPE glitterati flaunting their disaster stockpiling


----------



## greenfield (Jan 4, 2019)

Stupid Asda delivery man! That showed him!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 5, 2019)

cantsin said:


> #FBPE glitterati flaunting their disaster stockpiling




I remember when only right wing loons got into the whole ''prepper" scene.

Then again I also remember when it was only right wing loons who spunked all over the EU, advocated censorship of other peoples' words, shat the bed over Russian conspiracies, obsessed themselves with becoming 'racially-conscious', argued for the separation of cultures, endlessly policed others' sexuality, made arguments like "well a private company can do what they want", and cheered on wars designed to civilise 'backwards' countries.

Guess I'm just getting old.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 5, 2019)

Bastani has his PhD research questioned by Jeremy Duns, who, ordinarily, I try to avoid, but he raises some serious concerns about Bastani’s research methods. The email exchanges are certainly something.


----------



## killer b (Jan 5, 2019)

Bastani is a total whopper who's removal from left wing prominence can't come sooner, but it shouldn't be at the hands of these vermin.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 5, 2019)

Fuck Duns tbh. But someone has gone through Bastani’s PhD and found, what they claim, is academic plagiarism, which is much worse:


----------



## killer b (Jan 5, 2019)

I don't give a shit about bastani's phd, and neither should you.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 5, 2019)

Bastani is a total plum but the criticisms of his PhD are piss weak and are largely more revealing of the critics' complete ignorance of social science qualitative research methods. Some of them were calling shenanigans on the basis of not knowing what a DPhil is.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 6, 2019)

Theisticle said:


> Fuck Duns tbh. But someone has gone through Bastani’s PhD and found, what they claim, is academic plagiarism, which is much worse:




wow, the smoking gun, its the end of Basto / Novara / Alt Left  etc etc ...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Smoking kills (Jan 6, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I remember when only right wing loons got into the whole ''prepper" scene.
> 
> Then again I also remember when it was only right wing loons who spunked all over the EU, advocated censorship of other peoples' words, shat the bed over Russian conspiracies, obsessed themselves with becoming 'racially-conscious', argued for the separation of cultures, endlessly policed others' sexuality, made arguments like "well a private company can do what they want", and cheered on wars designed to civilise 'backwards' countries.
> 
> Guess I'm just getting old.


Stocking up on Italian tomatoes and pasta seems sensible, rather than batshit backwoods crazy, given they could be twice the price this time next year.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 6, 2019)

Not impressed with Olusoga's wriggling here I dislike the link to empire, but it felt wrong to turn down an OBE | David Olusoga

Not a good look for someone who built a career on anti-colonial commentary. And the fact that he has no response except to take the piss out of Picketty's - actually totally reasonable - reason for turning down an honour marks him as just a bit too impressed with accolades from social superiors.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 6, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Bastani is a total plum but the criticisms of his PhD are piss weak and are largely more revealing of the critics' complete ignorance of social science qualitative research methods. Some of them were calling shenanigans on the basis of not knowing what a DPhil is.


Plagiarism and failing to honestly reflect on one's involvement in the events under scrutiny of one's own PhD are not in any way part of legitimate research methods. Does that really need spelling out?


----------



## killer b (Jan 6, 2019)

Shut up about bastanis Phd. Jesus Christ.


----------



## chilango (Jan 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Shut up about bastanis Phd. Jesus Christ.



Although it's reflecting the level of "commentary" that is appearing on this thread it's not exactly a step forward in our part, is it?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Shut up about bastanis Phd. Jesus Christ.


Fuck off with thread policing.


----------



## killer b (Jan 6, 2019)

It's been 90% of the content on politics twitter for a week now, and it's been crushingly boring for six days and 23 hours of that. I dunno what you want urban to be, but 'twitter, one week later' isn't it.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's been 90% of the content on politics twitter for a week now, and it's been crushingly boring for six days and 23 hours of that. I dunno what you want urban to be, but 'twitter, one week later' isn't it.


Not everyone is on twitter.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 6, 2019)

TruXta said:


> Plagiarism and failing to honestly reflect on one's involvement in the events under scrutiny of one's own PhD are not in any way part of legitimate research methods. Does that really need spelling out?



Sounds like the weak plagiarism claims by the attention  deperate Lightman have already been debunked.

Next.  ( zzzzzzzz )


----------



## TruXta (Jan 6, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Sounds like the weak plagiarism claims by the attention  deperate Lightman have already been debunked.
> 
> Next.  ( zzzzzzzz )


Fair enough. What I saw in that tweet thread was shoddy if true though. The other stuff would be a lot more damning if true.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 7, 2019)

Tbh I don't care if Bastani had his entire doctorate written for him by James Butler, it's not like he gets to hold it up for a free pass when he's been talking shite.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 7, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Tbh I don't care if Bastani had his entire doctorate written for him by James Butler, it's not like he gets to hold it up for a free pass when he's been talking shite.


No, but if he cheated on his PhD it helps establish a pattern.


----------



## killer b (Jan 7, 2019)

a pattern of who gives a fuck.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 7, 2019)

What of not always researching his topics properly and sometimes being sloppy with his referencing? I could have told you that from reading his Twitter stream, an investigative probe of his academic output is not required. I mean ffs the man does a regular hot take vlog called Tyskie Sour, it's not like he's short on examples of bullshittery.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 7, 2019)

What's this?
Journalists lying?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 7, 2019)

Oh well.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 7, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> What of not always researching his topics properly and sometimes being sloppy with his referencing? I could have told you that from reading his Twitter stream, an investigative probe of his academic output is not required. I mean ffs the man does a regular hot take vlog called Tyskie Sour, it's not like he's short on examples of bullshittery.



man, you heavyweights have his card properly marked ...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 7, 2019)

Get off Twitter


----------



## killer b (Jan 7, 2019)

I dunno, it's sometimes pretty useful when it's not all clogged up with bastani phd and sausage roll chat.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 7, 2019)

I used to think *I* was an obsessive weirdo who fixated on niche subcultural nonsense before I joined twitter, so it's been quite reassuring.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 7, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I used to think *I* was an obsessive weirdo who fixated on niche subcultural nonsense before I joined twitter, so it's been quite reassuring.


So job done, time to delete it?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 7, 2019)

TruXta said:


> So job done, time to delete it?



no no, I need _constant _reassurance 

(and there are other uses for it too)


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 7, 2019)

cantsin said:


> man, you heavyweights have his card properly marked ...



I'm no heavyweight ta, but you don't usually need to be to spot when Aaron's hot-taking is out-running his actual knowledge of a subject.


----------



## rekil (Jan 8, 2019)

PD should get some I'm Literally A PhD Truther tshirts out before this twoutrage is displaced by the next one.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jan 9, 2019)

I’m not sure I can face twitter anymore.

The Rachel Riley think has me utterly baffled.

I’m starting to think everyone is a shitbag

What’s the U.K. numbers on twitter and what’s the population, I need a % figure not on twitter I can squeeze a bit of hope out of


----------



## killer b (Jan 9, 2019)

I think there's about seven people on there. fuck all really, but everyone else is on facebook sharing nazi memes.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jan 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think there's about seven people on there. fuck all really, but everyone else is on facebook sharing nazi memes.



You are not helping


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 9, 2019)

The Latest UK Social Media Statistics for 2018 - Avocado Social

so 12 mill and change from 66.02 mill population overall. And a UK 2017 electorate number is 47,932,500.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jan 9, 2019)

I just had a great chat with a Norwegian. Loves his family, loves Norway, socialist system is amazing, everyone is wonderful, life is great. But he’s still not happy with brown skinned immigrants and the jobless

KILL ME NOW


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 9, 2019)

There are some good useful accounts on Twitter which post good useful things. "Official Politics Twitter" is fucking awful and I try to stay away from it as much as possible. This is generally easy, though - just don't follow the "big dogs", and block them if necessary so you don't see retweets.


----------



## killer b (Jan 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> don't follow the "big dogs", and block them if necessary so you don't see retweets.


fuck yes. I forgot you can do this.


----------



## killer b (Jan 21, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> LAUNCH OF NEW CULTURE, ARTS AND POLITICS JOURNAL: DRUGSTORE CULTURE - CHARLES FINCH
> 
> 
> this is great. d'ancunt


further to this.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> further to this.




can't remember what it was, but the first / only thing I saw on there was rancid, classist shite that didnt even know it was, sort of thing.

cldnt give a monkeys what happens to D'Ancona


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2019)

radical centrist agitprop? Coffee table magazine for god knows who? either way its going down the drain now


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

It was tory attempt at the modern world


----------



## killer b (Jan 22, 2019)

This is literally the first thing I've read about it since we were laughing at it last year. I haven't seen any articles shared, no chat about it at all. What have all these journalists been doing all that time?


----------



## cantsin (Jan 25, 2019)

Tim Martin's response to OJ's simple ' but you pay your workers f*ck all'  argument is as utterly feeble / morally bankrupt as it comes - in or  out of the EU ( whatever - tbf, no EU directive has done anything to hinder this lump of exploitative drek in 30 + yrs) - how can we not be crushing these cretins ?

Owen Jones meets Tim Martin: 'Poverty wages? Don't ask childish questions' – video


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2019)

We're not here on this thread to _bury them_ are we?


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2019)




----------



## CNT36 (Feb 13, 2019)

Explains the hairline.


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 10, 2019)

Dawn Foster doing a Helen Lewis/Suzanne Moore and temporarily removing their Twitter rather than apologise.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2019)

What did she say?


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2019)

What did he say for that matter?


----------



## rekil (Mar 10, 2019)

Some tory cunt said he thinks Jess Phillips is gr8. That's it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2019)

He said Phillips was 'irrisistable' and foster called him a creep - seem she's got nothing to apologise for to me. Gay men are totally capable of being creeps to women, his sexuality just isn't relevant.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2019)

Also katerji is a bellend.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Also katerji is a bellend.


All I've ever seen of the bloke is him having a row with someone over absolute trivia/twitter drama.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2019)

Always a delight when someone brings these bits of worthless ephemera to urban, must say.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2019)

Katerji may be, in this country, a soppy lib-dem anti-corbynite but he did solid gold work in opposition held areas of Syria for many many years in the most dangerous of conditions at the most dangerous of times at great risk to himself. A lot of the atrocities we now know about would not have been reported at all or not as well as they were without him and others like him. Say what you want about the man, but he knows damn well where he stands as regards mass murder of civilians, rape murder and torture in regime cells and so on - unlike many of the hard left anti-imperialist corbynites attacking him.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 10, 2019)

This is Boles’ tweet and her comment btw (not that she was the only one either). A complete nothing.


----------



## YouSir (Mar 10, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 164068
> 
> This is Boles’ tweet and her comment btw (not that she was the only one either). A complete nothing.



Going by her posting history very much doubt she deleted Twitter for that too.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 164068
> 
> This is Boles’ tweet and her comment btw (not that she was the only one either). A complete nothing.


Not even nothing really, she was totally correct.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 10, 2019)

YouSir said:


> Going by her posting history very much doubt she deleted Twitter for that too.


edit: oh look, death and rape threats on Twitter


----------



## Theisticle (Mar 16, 2019)

Appalled by the threats against Dawn. I hadn’t seen them when I had posted originally. 

Also, nice to LP, friend of Weev and Milo has something to say about fascism


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2019)

Theisticle said:


> Dawn Foster doing a Helen Lewis/Suzanne Moore and temporarily removing their Twitter rather than apologise.


Do you still think she should have apologised for calling a sleazy comment sleazy?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 16, 2019)

Apparently it wasn’t actually the Boles/Myers thing that led her to go offline for a bit, it was that she was on tv talking about Shamila Begum and immediately got a flood of shit from the far right.


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2019)

Oh I know. But there's still implicit in that comment the idea that foster should have apologised.

Phillips & Boles have recorded a little thing for channel 4 where they laugh about how ridiculous it all is btw, which at least proves (as if we didn't already know) that Phillips is more interested in dunking on her own side than the actual emancipatory politics she claims to be up for.


----------



## tim (Mar 16, 2019)

Theisticle said:


> Appalled by the threats against Dawn. I hadn’t seen them when I had posted originally.
> 
> Also, nice to LP, friend of Weev and Milo has something to say about fascism



She may be Milo's mate but she's still blocking me.


----------



## rekil (Mar 16, 2019)

tim said:


> She may be Milo's mate but she's still blocking me.


You mean you're missing premium content like this? The entire Labour party should turn towards Los Angeles and bow their heads in contrition.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 28, 2019)

*coff*


----------



## Buckaroo (Apr 28, 2019)

Weev got to do something about these Nazis.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 28, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Weev got to do something about these Nazis.


For we have promises to keep, and Miloes to go before we sleep. . .


----------



## chilango (Apr 28, 2019)

Am I imagining it, but didn't she buy Tommy Robinson a steak dinner once?


----------



## agricola (Apr 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Am I imagining it, but didn't she buy Tommy Robinson a steak dinner once?



I think it went on expenses, but yes.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

I reckon her mate Crabapple is genuinely ashamed of the weev carry on, I don’t think she’s gone to the lengths she did to erase all past traces of her friendship with him online over money.....it’s just a shame she couldn’t come out and say she fucked up as any of the- as far as I can see- positive work she’s done since then will always be coloured by it. I totally get how younger people can get involved with people who they think are launching satire at the liberal left/right and it can take a while to realise nah, actually they  are just dealing with fascists. She probably went through a period of denial too cause she’d become mates with him. Humour even on urban ten years ago was pretty near the line. Penny though, not so sure about her. She’s deliberately and obviously lied about shit so many times.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

That’s my empathy hat on for tonight  don’t shoot me


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 28, 2019)

I'm proud of Proletarian Democracy (you've probably never heard of it).


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> I'm proud of Proletarian Democracy (you've probably never heard of it).


Incidentally I was surprised to find the creators  of the eye injuring intersectionalist heavy blog Athoooosandflooooers sharing PD stuff, so I’ve heard of it twice!


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 28, 2019)

Nah, the 'never heard of it ' bit was an in-joke re Penny and PD reportage of the student movement in Chile.  Soz!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Nah, the 'never heard of it ' bit was an in-joke re Penny and PD reportage of the student movement in Chile.  Soz!


Aye workers girder “chile, you’ve probably never heard of it”

What am I missing?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Nah, the 'never heard of it ' bit was an in-joke re Penny and PD reportage of the student movement in Chile.  Soz!


I think athousandflowers shared the board game, or something, I admit my memory is shit


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 28, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Aye workers girder “chile, you’ve probably never heard of it”
> 
> What am I missing?



Nothing, that was it!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Nothing, that was it!


I know! Hahahaha


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 28, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Nothing, that was it!


My anecdote re the ATF sharing the PD stuff was superfluous humouf


----------



## LDC (May 14, 2019)

Claire Fox of RCP/Living Marxism/Spiked and now the Brexit Party on Novara Media tonight with Bastani.


----------



## ska invita (May 22, 2019)

Doesn't really belong on this thread, but does anyone know what all the Nina Power drama is about?


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Doesn't really belong on this thread, but does anyone know what all the Nina Power drama is about?


Theres quite a bit of discussion about it on the industrial music & fascism thread, recent pages.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2019)

Not sure where else to put this. Incredible stuff. The brain worms seem to be infecting everyone.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Not sure where else to put this. Incredible stuff. The brain worms seem to be infecting everyone.


That's from a while back isn't it? I've definitely seen it, but not recently.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 21, 2019)

Blimey


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

DaveCinzano said:


> That's from a while back isn't it? I've definitely seen it, but not recently.



I've not seen it before.

Lisa's facing a bit of a shit storm on twitter right now about something else.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 21, 2019)

Is it that surprising? Class War have often got an easy ride on here but they always seemed to me to be into class as an identity. If you assume that parliamentary politics doesn't matter and therefore the political distinctions between Phillips and Corbyn don't matter, but working class identity does matter, then it's a logical position.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2019)

DaveCinzano said:


> That's from a while back isn't it? I've definitely seen it, but not recently.


I dunno, someone shared it this morning.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> I've not seen it before.
> 
> Lisa's facing a bit of a shit storm on twitter right now about something else.


she created that particular shitstorm tbf


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I dunno, someone shared it this morning.



Were their motives 'pure" in doing so?

Lisa has made a lot of enemies in the last couple of days.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> she created that particular shitstorm tbf



Maybe.

Point being she's a bit "busy" tweeting in that to be posting the quoted tweet right now.

Doesn't alter the content, might alter the context.

*shrugs*

I have no skin in this. I find her sociology stuff useful though.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2019)

Are anyone's motives pure? Who cares. I'd imagine whoever shared it did so because she's been shrieking all over the internet for the last 24 hours, as context. Fair enough.


----------



## treelover (Jun 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> I've not seen it before.
> 
> Lisa's facing a bit of a shit storm on twitter right now about something else.






> The venom that has come out on Twitter tonight has truly shocked me. The left are truly finished. I have real fear in my heart of what is going to happen to all working class people in the UK in the next 5 years.



she is right though, most working class people wouldn't put Palestine in their top 5 of daily problems, though there are plenty who do care about it, anyway she has suspended her twitter account, another voice silenced.

actually reading her twitter page, she seems to have declared war on the London liberal left


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2019)

treelover said:


> she is right though, most working class people wouldn't put Palestine in their top 5 of daily problems, though there are plenty who do care about it, anyway she has suspended her twitter account, another voice silenced.


She may be right that working class people don't prioritise Palestine, but the whole row started when she attacked an anti-racist occupation at Goldsmith's  - which is in part about the withdrawal of a bursary for Palestinian students - for flying the Palestinian flag. I'm not surprised she got cunted off.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

No-one will come out of it looking good.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 21, 2019)

treelover said:


> she is right though, most working class people wouldn't put Palestine in their top 5 of daily problems, though there are plenty who do care about it, anyway she has suspended her twitter account, another voice silenced.
> 
> actually reading her twitter page, she seems to have declared war on the London liberal left


In my experience most working class people don't like the idea of military snipers shooting kids.


----------



## treelover (Jun 21, 2019)

of course not, but it is not a priority for most.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

Either way, losing your shit on twitter about it is not the way forward.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2019)

treelover said:


> of course not, but it is not a priority for most.


Nor is it to the Goldsmiths occupation tbf - the Palestine stuff is fairly low down on a list of demands which include better workers rights for cleaners and security, opening the building they're occupying for local community use, and a load of anti-racism stuff. It looks to me like an admirable campaign that's managing to walk _and_ chew gum, and attacking it is just bizarre.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2019)

It also smacks of whataboutery.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 23, 2019)

captainmission said:


> Caroline Criado-Perez on why we should be celebrating the election results. It's in the big issue - so all those newly homeless women turfed out their home's by the benefit cap can celebrate this great step forward.



Similar dynamic in this article by Timothy Garton Ash:

_you can show how these liberal values speak to the new challenges of our time, such as climate change, gender equality (on which Swinson wrote a book), education and preserving the European Union as the world’s pioneering example of liberal international order.

They now have Chuka Umunna, perhaps the most talented politician to leave Labour via the Change UK party, and should soon be joined by at least one of the three charismatic, pro-remain female MPs who left the Conservatives for Change UK._


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 2, 2019)

Just in case anyone needs reminding of Rod Liddle's proclivities:


----------



## rekil (Sep 19, 2019)

Forward to full space communism. One lobby pass at a time.


----------



## killer b (Sep 19, 2019)

He's right about Butler tbf, he's by some distance the best writer they have on Novara


----------



## LDC (Sep 23, 2019)

Words fail me.


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2019)

I was at the in-laws the other day and they were watching Pointless. 

I wasn't really paying attention but it slowly dawned on me that Owen Jones was a celebrity contestant.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Words fail me.



W. T. A. F?


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2019)

DaveCinzano said:


> W. T. A. F?



This isn't some drunken spur of the moment carried away lark either.

They've been planning and promoting it for weeks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 23, 2019)

Orang Utan said:


> Just in case anyone needs reminding of Rod Liddle's proclivities:



I had to Google “year 10”, because we have a different system here, but that’s apparently 14-year-olds.  “I don’t think I’d have dabbled much below year ten” he says. _I don’t think I’d have tried to shag children younger than 14 much. _

Well, there’s that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Words fail me.



What is it?


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What is it?



A variety show of Novara Media and Labour types at the Labour conference.

I refuse to know the details.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 23, 2019)

I can't say I watched the whole 2 hrs 17 minutes so there may be something I'm missing. But TBH I don't have a particular problem with relaxed/light-hearted/chilldown session, after all AWT is in some sense a counterpoint to main conference. Not sure why you would want to record and upload it though.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 23, 2019)

Jesus christ. One step removed from a space communist glee club


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> A variety show of Novara Media and Labour types at the Labour conference.
> 
> I refuse to know the details.


Ed Miliband was comperring, from what I could see. So radical.


----------



## rekil (Sep 23, 2019)

The Blind Date bit at 30ish mins. Chilling.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 23, 2019)

I think I’ve warmed to Green New Deal man though. He did well to dilute the creepiness.


----------



## rekil (Sep 23, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I think I’ve warmed to Green New Deal man though. He did well to dilute the creepiness.






			
				them said:
			
		

> Bolsheviks are red
> Mensheviks are white
> I'm in the vanguard
> And I'm a bit of alright.


It's all suspiciously similar to PD's valentines day poetry.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> This isn't some drunken spur of the moment carried away lark either.
> 
> They've been planning and promoting it for weeks.



could live w/0 Miliband doing Ed Balls jokes, but lefty alt media outfit does pre planned lefty alt media lolz show @ TWT - not sure where the " WTAF / wORdz FaIL Me "  etc stuff comes from ?


----------



## LDC (Sep 23, 2019)

cantsin said:


> lefty alt media outfit does pre planned lefty alt media lolz show @ TWT - not sure where the " WTAF / wORdz FaIL Me "  etc stuff comes from ?



Novara are happily trying to position themselves as a leading voice of the radical left.

Then Ed Miliband? For a start.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Novara are happily trying to position themselves as a leading voice of the radical left.
> 
> Then Ed Miliband? For a start.



litch just edited in that caveat /. accept that


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2019)

cantsin said:


> could live w/0 Miliband doing Ed Balls jokes, but lefty alt media outfit does pre planned lefty alt media lolz show @ TWT - not sure where the " WTAF / wORdz FaIL Me "  etc stuff comes from ?



Have you watched it?


----------



## cantsin (Sep 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> Have you watched it?



scrolled a bit hoping to find pissed OJ bit, but not feeling strong / time rich enough to do much more than that tbh


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2019)

cantsin said:


> scrolled a bit hoping to find pissed OJ bit, but not feeling strong / time rich enough to do much more than that tbh



I watched the first couple of minutes, but couldn't take any more.

I'm watching an old Tysky Sour instead and it's ok.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 23, 2019)

copliker said:


> The Blind Date bit at 30ish mins. Chilling.


You watched that far?


----------



## rekil (Sep 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> You watched that far?


That is called #activism. What do _you_ do?



Spoiler



I gave the Abbott bit about 30 secs then clicked at random.


----------



## treelover (Sep 23, 2019)

Orang Utan said:


> Just in case anyone needs reminding of Rod Liddle's proclivities:




just saw this, wow!, how has he got away with it.


----------



## treelover (Sep 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Words fail me.




John Mc is getting to close to the TWT lot, imo.


----------



## killer b (Sep 23, 2019)

treelover said:


> John Mc is getting to close to the TWT lot, imo.


I've just been looking through their programme for this year and it looks pretty good tbh. These are mostly the questions Labour should be attempting to answer & deal with - what's your issue with them?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Sep 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've just been looking through their programme for this year and it looks pretty good tbh. These are mostly the questions Labour should be attempting to answer & deal with - what's your issue with them?



I was about to say that looks a lot better than last year, but they're still doing a session on 'Acid Corbynism'.


----------



## killer b (Sep 23, 2019)

No point slagging that off to me, I like the Acid Corbynism stuff, shit name aside.


----------



## killer b (Sep 23, 2019)

(there's a thread about it here: Acid Communism ?)


----------



## SpackleFrog (Sep 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> (there's a thread about it here: Acid Communism ?)



I suppose I should read the thread but bleurgh


----------



## brogdale (Sep 28, 2019)

A _rave from the grave...

_


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 28, 2019)

brogdale said:


> A _rave from the grave...
> 
> View attachment 185386_


One would think a political activist such as herself would have been tweeting and writing prolifically on recent events rather than Halloween costumes...


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 28, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> One would think a political activist such as herself would have been tweeting and writing prolifically on recent events rather than Halloween costumes...


Didn't she go off to write scripts for Hollywood?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 28, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Didn't she go off to write scripts for Hollywood?


No idea. Last I knew she was doing some masters in the US.


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2019)

She doesn't need to hawk her writing to the papers anymore, her readers pay her direct (3.5k per month!). A blessing for everyone.

Laurie Penny is creating journalism, features and stories | Patreon


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2019)

We Can Be Heroes: How the Nerds Are Reinventing Pop Culture

Here's what mugs get for their patreon cash. A long brag about being a successful screenwriter from Oxford 'wizarding school'.



> Some of us were working-class, most of us were queer, almost all of us were twitchy weirdos emerging from the special neurosis of lonely intelligent children everywhere, namely that we thought far too much and far too little of ourselves at the same time.





> I publish a short novel, Everything Belongs to the Future, which is barely disguised fan fiction about me and my friends, set in a far-future Oxford, with a group of queer anarchists in a filthy flatshare trying to make art in a world that has no space for them.





> Of the original members of our Oxford Fan Fiction and Folklore society, by the way, two are now published authors, one is a cultural critic, and one is a major editor at a science fiction/fantasy publishing house.



Milo has been cast aside for now.


> A fringe far-right rally at the Republican National Convention. I'm here as a reporter, and I hold up my recorder as the far-right nanocelebrity on the podium segues seamlessly from a rant about the threat of Islam to a rant about the new _Ghostbusters_ reboot. “Terrible feminist flop!” Milo Yiannopoulos yells.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 6, 2019)

Amazing that a load of kids ('some working class' - one of them went to state school) in oxford university have gone on to have succesfull careers


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2019)

The Meritocracy Stands.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 6, 2019)

I'm all wound up by some meaningless shit laurie penny has chatted now, this is why the internet is bad


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 6, 2019)

Such a fucking knob tho


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2019)

That patreon really is just a _fund my holiday twats_ thing isn't it? 

What's like to be _patronised_. Like a 16th century duke's servant, or more like a _fund my party twats_ leninist subs style feeling?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 6, 2019)

I remember getting into blogging in mid-ish 00s (I'm embarrassed thinking about it) and that pennyred blog being one of the darlings of the 'left blogosphere' (fucks sake) and me wondering wtf and here we are fifteen years later with her leveraging 50k a year out of dickheads for pumping out the same teenage angst outsider posh bollocks. It is almost admirable really, in the same way as that horrible fella who faked the lottery ticket


----------



## chilango (Oct 6, 2019)

It's like painting cats for moneyed spinsters.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2019)

So her new thing is that elite dominance is ok - it's deserved right? She's consistent on this at least - here's her in 2013 talking at the oxford union: _Who are we? People who are ambitious. People who expect to be in the top 10 to 1% of global society, either now or in a few years. 
_
And as if by some magic - it happened!


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2019)

I dont have any particular problem with paying to read someone's writing, but the patreon model has you paying way more for far less than you would under other models- ie, a monthly subscription to a magazine or whatever.

The minimum to 'unlock' most patreon's content is usually about £3 - for that you might as well buy a paper magazine with lots of writers - and I'm sure I'm not the only person making that calculation. So as a way of funding individual writers, I cant see it working for anyone other than grifters like Penny.


----------



## rekil (Oct 6, 2019)

Fillum pitch: A chilling dystopia where Oxford has never existed.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2019)

Has to be a a celeb-grifter though. Preferably one who publishes on the harm celeb culture is doing to society.


----------



## binka (Oct 6, 2019)

$2 is the minimum to get her articles, she has 629 subscribers making the average $5.54 per month. Would expect it roughly follows the Pareto principle where 80% contribute 20% of the money and 20% contribute 80% - bit precarious with such a small subscriber base if she loses a few of her $100 or $250 subscribers she could be in trouble. I'm sure she manages to keep it fresh and interesting for them all though 

All joking aside we're only all jealous. Not that I could have been Laurie Penny but I definitely could have been PewDiePie


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2019)

I'm not jealous, I'm grateful that Penny has found the means to remove herself from public life.


----------



## binka (Oct 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not jealous, I'm grateful that Penny has found the means to remove herself from public life.


You wouldn't want to make three grand a month for writing a load of old toss?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 6, 2019)

All I'm thinking is that I might just start a patreon. Three and a half grand a month you say?


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2019)

It isn't actually (just) a load of old toss is it though - its writing that's carefully engineered to please her patrons. I wouldn't be interested in making a living on that kind of writing, no.


----------



## binka (Oct 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> It isn't actually (just) a load of old toss is it though - its writing that's carefully engineered to please her patrons. I wouldn't be interested in making a living on that kind of writing, no.


All you had to say was no, then I'd have said why not you already do it for free and then we could have all had a good laugh about it


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 6, 2019)

This patreon stuff skirts a line between paying for journalism (like having a sub for FT or new statesman or whatever) and paying to be somebody's fake friend. Well that's my thought for the day anyway


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2019)

Patreon is fine for entertainment where you know people just want more of the same and there's no harm in giving it to them. I kick in for a couple of podcasts but creators and audience know the deal there, if they want to do different stuff they do it under a different project. 

Doesn't work with anything that should be eclectic and challenging though. Even written fiction would be a struggle unless it was purely genre. Journalism? No way. Only orgs should use Patreon style funding for that, even then it's a delicate one.


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2019)

Actually having said that I could see scope for investigate reporting being crowd funded to one person. Narrow subject matter, clear journalistic purpose etc. Fuck all to do with Penny though who does neither journalism nor investigation.


----------



## killer b (Oct 10, 2019)

I dunno where else to put this, but this seems the most appropriate thread: Ellen Degeneres, after getting flak for palling up with George W Bush, gave a humorous monologue about how it's actually just fine for her to be mates with him. In front of a blue background... 

This altered version of the speech is magnificent. Especially this shot.


----------



## binka (Oct 16, 2019)

I wasn't sure where to put this either but this will do I guess. You remember Russell Brand? Him who a few years ago went to the occupy protests, got his face in front of all the cameras, I think he even called himself an anarchist. Well anyway here is in a Facebook advert for an appearance at the 'national achievers congress 2019' if you're not sure quite how shit that is let me help:

National Achievers Congress – Birmingham 2019 - Success Resources UK

_"National Achievers Congress is your chance to achieve worldwide success with leading strategies from global powerhouse entrepreneurs.

During the event, you will have the exclusive opportunity to hear from industry leaders and discover the secrets to optimise your business, build your brand and monetise your passion. 

At_ _this unprecedented event, you will have the opportunity to hear from Gary Vaynerchuck and Grant Cardone – two of the world’s most in-demand entrepreneurial experts._

_Whether you’re a budding entrepreneur in your first year or an established business looking to scale globally, you won’t want to miss out on this event. To celebrate the 25th anniversary of NAC, this year’s lineup is expected to be bigger and better than ever before, with more insights, more experts, and more questions."_

Monetise your passion people - it's the future


----------



## smokedout (May 31, 2020)

Fearless reporting as Laurie Penny goes charging towards the sound of gunfire once more



(I don't really care, it just happened to be top of my timeline after I'd just read the America burning thread)


----------



## rekil (May 31, 2020)

Fun times. The piano adds a certain_ je ne sais quoi_. Stay strong. You'll get through this. As usual. Unfortunately.


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2020)

rekil said:


> Fun times. The piano adds a certain_ je ne sais quoi_. Stay strong. You'll get through this. As usual. Unfortunately.
> 
> 
> View attachment 215470


Had to check that was 'real'...but the effort was rewarded as I saw the follow-up 'explanatory' tweet...


----------



## andysays (May 31, 2020)

rekil said:


> Fun times. The piano adds a certain_ je ne sais quoi_. Stay strong. You'll get through this. As usual. Unfortunately.
> 
> 
> View attachment 215470


I suppose I could google an image of Michelangelo's Pieta to find out, but I certainly don't remember there being a sofa and a fuck off grand piano in the original.


----------



## Favelado (May 31, 2020)

Would love to fact-check the rubber bullet thing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2020)

The retrospective continues


----------



## The39thStep (May 31, 2020)

From happier days 'They call themselves the quarantine gang'









						Not going coronavirus outbreak alone: Some find quarantine buddies to lessen isolation
					

As Californians are ordered to stay at home to decrease coronavirus spread, some are making pacts with small groups of friends.




					www.latimes.com
				



.


----------



## tim (May 31, 2020)

I have contempt for anyone who hasn't been banished from Laurie Penny's Twitter feed. It really isn't that difficult to wind her up enough.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> From happier days 'They call themselves the quarantine gang'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The39thStep (May 31, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 215488











						Feeling Isolated? Friends Buddy Up To Lessen Loneliness
					

Some people are forming groups agreeing to limit contact with anyone but each other.




					www.wbur.org


----------



## The39thStep (May 31, 2020)

There, there my dear.......


> My whole generation learned relentless work was the way to cope with the rolling crisis, with the mood of imminent collapse and economic insecurity that was the elevator music of our entire youth—the relentless tension between trying to save yourself and trying to save the world, between desperate aspiration and actual hope.


----------



## rekil (May 31, 2020)

_Why The LA Times Is Going Down The Pan_


----------



## Favelado (May 31, 2020)

She has got such a cheek. She has repeatedly portrayed herself as working poor. She did a housemate article for the Guardian as well didn't she? She is POSH AS FUCK. It's so dishonest. What an insult to the people who really have suffered in economic crises.


----------



## rekil (Jun 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> There, there my dear.......



She describes herself as "a precarious millennial" in that piece.  In fairness her free patreon cash has dipped to a mere $3500 a month.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 1, 2020)

Some nice colour in the NYTimes piece on the quarantine gang:

"Vogel, the songwriter, describes the group as “well-read, gifted, currently dangerously sex-starved, deeply compassionate nut jobs. We are working round the clock to keep one another entertained, inspired, fed and virus-free.”

They have read through plays, recorded songs together, performed for one another. Vogel led a concert from their front porch, with the audience social-distancing six feet away. As thanks, a neighbor dropped off milk and some squash. 

“It’s like being theatre kids again,” Penny said."

Not only well-read, but 'gifted' too! listen to yourself pal!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 1, 2020)




----------



## SpackleFrog (Jun 1, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 215488



WHY CAN THE MIDDLE CLASSES NOT DEAL WITH SLIGHTLY TESTING SITUATIONS WITHOUT FUCKING GIVING ADVICE AND DECLARING THEMSELVES GIFTED arrgrgrh


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 1, 2020)

There’s this child on Twitter who seems to be getting a lot of attention - he’s a Tory and Cummings fanboy - Darren Grimes? Anyone know why he’s blueticked and so prominent? He seems to have come out of nowhere


----------



## killer b (Jun 1, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> There’s this child on Twitter who seems to be getting a lot of attention - he’s a Tory and Cummings fanboy - Darren Grimes? Anyone know why he’s blueticked and so prominent? He seems to have come out of nowhere


He was the student who was prosecuted over Vote Leave campaign finance irregularities, which he's leveraged (or others have leveraged for him) into a media talking head career.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 1, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> There’s this child on Twitter who seems to be getting a lot of attention - he’s a Tory and Cummings fanboy - Darren Grimes? Anyone know why he’s blueticked and so prominent? He seems to have come out of nowhere


That's the useful idiot who provided the conduit for dodgy undeclared coordinated funding of Cambridge Analytica-linked data guerillas AggregateIQ through his ‘youth Brexit’ front BeLeave in concert with Vote Leave and others. He's heading towards his thirties


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 1, 2020)

SNAP


----------



## flypanam (Jun 1, 2020)

rekil said:


> She describes herself as "a precarious millennial" in that piece.  In fairness her free patreon cash has dipped to a mere $3500 a month.


in fairness she is described in the peice The39thStep  linked as "Two Californians — songwriter Natti Vogel and television writer Laurie Penny — have decided to socially distance together with two more of their friends." More reinventions than Bowie with much less talent, or maybe I'm too blind not to see it


----------



## killer b (Jun 1, 2020)

apparently he was working at the Institute of Economic Affairs until he left for 'undisclosed reasons' in March, which is probably why he's suddenly hustling for more media stuff now


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 1, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> That's the useful idiot who provided the conduit for dodgy undeclared coordinated funding of Cambridge Analytica-linked data guerillas AggregateIQ through his ‘youth Brexit’ front BeLeave in concert with Vote Leave and others. He's heading towards his thirties


He looks about 15!


----------



## tim (Jun 1, 2020)

[Q


Orang Utan said:


> There’s this child on Twitter who seems to be getting a lot of attention - he’s a Tory and Cummings fanboy - Darren Grimes? Anyone know why he’s blueticked and so prominent? He seems to have come out of nowhere



He's good at winning court cases, so watch what you type.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 1, 2020)

tim said:


> [Q
> 
> 
> He's good at winning court cases, so watch what you type.


Bring it on pipsqueak


----------



## tim (Jun 1, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> Bring it on pipsqueak


Bring it on _Sue Grabbit and Runne_.


----------



## killer b (Jun 1, 2020)

I think Darren Grimes' solicitors would be very busy if they went after everyone who was being rude about him on social media tbf.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 1, 2020)

rekil said:


> Fun times. The piano adds a certain_ je ne sais quoi_. Stay strong. You'll get through this. As usual. Unfortunately.
> 
> 
> View attachment 215470



Not even the best grand piano image from 2020 America


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 5, 2020)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 5, 2020)

And he's the porker who knows. Interesting fellow.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 5, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> And he's the porker who knows. Interesting fellow.



He knows his stuff and happy to tell people when they’re talking crap.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> He knows his stuff and happy to tell people when they’re talking crap.


TBF he can also be quite grumpy even when they're not talking crap 

(Well, back in his MHC days.)

Always funny how deferential senior cops would be to him though


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 5, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> TBF he can also be quite grumpy even when they're not talking crap


Can't we all...


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 5, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> TBF he can also be quite grumpy even when they're not talking crap
> 
> (Well, back in his MHC days.)
> 
> Always funny how deferential senior cops would be to him though



Grumpiness beats passive-aggressive cry-bullying victimhood every time


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 5, 2020)

And the secret barrister person aint happy either


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 6, 2020)

Poor Laurie


----------



## agricola (Jun 6, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And the secret barrister person aint happy either




sooner or later every member of the commentariat approves of Tory policies


----------



## co-op (Jun 6, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> Poor Laurie




I think what really bugs me is the stupid slurping down of US slogans without any thought about how they came about, why they are relevant there and why they might not be here. All in the rush to score points for being super right on.


----------



## co-op (Jun 6, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And the secret barrister person aint happy either



I think what really bugs me is the stupid slurping down of US slogans without any thought about how they came about, why they are relevant there and why they might not be here. All in the rush to score points for being super right on.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 6, 2020)

American imperialism out!


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 6, 2020)

Yeah, not sure about EMO's take there. Police pick up a lot of mentally ill people because mental health services are underfunded. I suppose there could be something to be said for transferring budgets straight from the police to mental health services. But as I understand it the key problem there is not about police funding, it's about mental health funding.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2020)

co-op said:


> I think what really bugs me is the stupid slurping down of US slogans without any thought about how they came about, why they are relevant there and why they might not be here. All in the rush to score points for being super right on.


I'll take a knee on that


----------



## co-op (Jun 6, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> American imperialism out!





butchersapron said:


> I'll take a knee on that



 

Yes very good everyone


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 6, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, not sure about EMO's take there. Police pick up a lot of mentally ill people because mental health services are underfunded. I suppose there could be something to be said for transferring budgets straight from the police to mental health services. But as I understand it the key problem there is not about police funding, it's about mental health funding.


100% hate to say it but in my experiences firsthand and secondhand, the police have always been a lot better to deal with than the NHS when it comes to urgent mental health issues. And you're right it comes down to funding and structural issues, and how this affects the motivation and atittudes of the individuals you come into contact with when a mental health crisis occurs.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 6, 2020)

also police (generally) have a better understanding of the law than MH staff. That’s not to have a go, but in the context of a legal process (which detentions are) it’s pretty important.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 6, 2020)

I have to say that my experience - not directly to me luckily but most prominently from a good friend who had an encounter with the police during a MH crisis - has been such that I wouldn't trust them a fucking inch and would never call them. I'm sure some are great, but that's always the way isn't it?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 6, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> also police (generally) have a better understanding of the law than MH staff. That’s not to have a go, but in the context of a legal process (which detentions are) it’s pretty important.


I would modify that, from my experience, to _some police have a much better understanding of the law than many NHS staff_, though I have also witnessed plenty of attempts by police to pass the MH buck inappropriately. 

I have also seen a scrum of doctors trying to (wrongly) persuade security to prevent a patient from leaving, even though he had capacity. Security stood their ground and refused, but it still helped precipitate a wholly avoidable situation in which a physically ill man ended up running barefoot into the street immediately outside the hospital in fear that he would be detained. Fortunately he was not injured in traffic.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 6, 2020)

yeah it’s a complex issue. Hence why EMO’s comment being particularly unhelpful (as well as factually wrong)


----------



## killer b (Jun 11, 2020)

Delighted to spot Nick Cohen being outed on twitter this afternoon.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 11, 2020)

killer b said:


> Delighted to spot Nick Cohen being outed on twitter this afternoon.







> you pervy ass Marshall Applewhite-looking fuck face







275 × 380


----------



## flypanam (Jun 13, 2020)

muscovyduck said:


> 100% hate to say it but in my experiences firsthand and secondhand, the police have always been a lot better to deal with than the NHS when it comes to urgent mental health issues. And you're right it comes down to funding and structural issues, and how this affects the motivation and atittudes of the individuals you come into contact with when a mental health crisis occurs.


I’d say some are absolute shit and can force people with MH issues to take their own lives because they share videos of people in distress Garda who shared video of mentally ill woman will not face charges


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 19, 2020)

Tangential - LP mentor news:











						On Finding Out Your Heroes are Monsters (Or: Detoxifying A Culture)
					

Warren Ellis is someone who could be credibly referred to as a genius. Transmetropolitan — a futuristic riff on Hunter S. Thompson — has never felt more relevant than in the era of Trump and the nationwide Black Lives Matters protests. The Marvel cinematic universe exists in no small part...




					www.doctornerdlove.com


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 20, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I'll take a knee on that


I used to be a warrior like you.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 20, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> I used to be a warrior like you.


Not sure if I'm proud or ashamed I got the reference immediately


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> On Finding Out Your Heroes are Monsters (Or: Detoxifying A Culture)
> 
> 
> Warren Ellis is someone who could be credibly referred to as a genius. Transmetropolitan — a futuristic riff on Hunter S. Thompson — has never felt more relevant than in the era of Trump and the nationwide Black Lives Matters protests. The Marvel cinematic universe exists in no small part...
> ...


this is a good piece - thanks for sharing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 20, 2020)

killer b said:


> this is a good piece - thanks for sharing.


I'd not come across him before, but it's grimly compelling reading - he's done a few others on other facets of comic industry sexism as well, which he links to at the bottom.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 20, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tangential - LP mentor news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If anyone follows through to BTL comments on news stories about this, strap yourselves in and be prepared for a whole lot of _I'm a little confused_ posts by men _trying to understand_ various particular aspects...


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'd not come across him before, but it's grimly compelling reading - he's done a few others on other facets of comic industry sexism as well, which he links to at the bottom.


the most interesting thing about it is how familiar it all is tbh. We all know people just like Ellis, the way he operates is totally... mundane. While people are having to work hard to not understand what he's done wrong, they're able to do that because this is how they and/or their friends also operate. Recognising what's wrong here requires them to recognise it being wrong in their own back yards.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2020)

Allison Pearson doesn’t see black people as human beings


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2020)

_Like PG tips chimps_. Blimey. That's what casual liberal-racist-prejudice looks like Allison.


----------



## agricola (Jun 24, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> Allison Pearson doesn’t see black people as human beings
> View attachment 219275



"full repertoire of virtues and vices"?  Does this mean that theres a character on _I May Destroy You_ who is a Telegraph opinion columnist that writes an article calling for people who report domestic incidents to be hounded by the press?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2020)

Oh Laurie.
[MEDIAtwitter]1277323094370119681[/MEDIA]


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> Oh Laurie.
> [MEDIAtwitter]1277323094370119681[/MEDIA]


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2020)

Idris2002 link borked


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2020)

oh no did she suggest that the Blues Brothers was idealised gen X retro fodder


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2020)

> ....Deleted that thread because it’s been a long week and I’d prefer not to deal with another heap of harassment on a Sunday afternoon. Sorry to anyone who was enjoying the alt-universe Brooklyn 99 silliness.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


>


Sorry guys.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2020)

I saw some of it, it was an attempt at humour, by the look of it, on her attempt to reconcile her wokeness with her love for frivolous police sitcom Brooklyn 99


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2020)

I always said she would have made a better stand-up comic than a journo.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> I always said she would have made a better stand-up comic than a journo.


It's not that I didn't trust you, but I did check


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2020)

There are not enough facepalms in the world.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2020)

You sad, sad man.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2020)

Fact-checkers - the last line of defence in the Commentariat Wars


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> I once, four years ago, said she would have made a better stand-up comic than a journo.


FTFY


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2020)

Somewhere, off in the distance, a dog barked.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 29, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I saw some of it, it was an attempt at humour, by the look of it, on her attempt to reconcile her wokeness with her love for frivolous police sitcom Brooklyn 99


Anyhoo


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 29, 2020)

Fucks sake, I don't think you need a massive justification to ratify one's love of a police-based sitcom with the knowledge that the police (in pretty much all jurisdictions) is a corrupt institution.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2020)

For context, there has been some chat on  social media recently about how police shows reinforce the idea of cops being good guys etc etc in the popular consciousness - I think that's certainly true and worth thinking about, but I don't think it's a demand for people to justify their TV watching habits to the world.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 29, 2020)

killer b said:


> For context, there has been some chat on  social media recently about how police shows reinforce the idea of cops being good guys etc etc in the popular consciousness - I think that's certainly true and worth thinking about, but I don't think it's a demand for people to justify their TV watching habits to the world.


Law and order is quite good on that front as it did periodically show police corruption.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 29, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Law and order is quite good on that front as it did periodically show police corruption.


It has been heavily criticised recently:








						Dick Wolf packed TV with hero cops. Critics say that’s part of what’s 'killing us.'
					

"The networks cannot be let off the hook" for supporting Wolf either, says Rashad Robinson, president of racial justice advocacy group Color of Change.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 29, 2020)

It is probably true that cop shows give the thugs in uniform more credit than they deserve, but I also think that American liberals/radical liberals made a fundamental error when they decided that "politics is downstream from culture".


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> It is probably true that cop shows give the thugs in uniform more credit than they deserve, but I also think that American liberals/radical liberals made a fundamental error when they decided that "politics is downstream from culture".


who actually made that decision though? The statues & racist comedies stuff over here has been an eye opener as far as this kind of thing is concerned, as while radicals have inevitably drawn into the arguments, both of those have really been an institutional response in the first instance.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 29, 2020)

killer b said:


> who actually made that decision though? The statues & racist comedies stuff over here has been an eye opener as far as this kind of thing is concerned, as while radicals have inevitably drawn into the arguments, both of those have really been an institutional response in the first instance.


Shit rolls downhill.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2020)

I don't know what that means


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 29, 2020)

killer b said:


> I don't know what that means


I mean that it wasn't a question of a single individual "deciding" that politics is downstream from culture, and therefore "we have to like, change the culture, dude". The structure of American society predisposed millions of people to make the mistaking of confusing a road to nowhere with a path of least resistance.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2020)

OK - I think this path of least resistance down which this stuff so easily disappears is something that's been created intentionally by people who have things to gain from it disappearing down it, rather than just springing up naturally. Certainly seems to be the case here anyway.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 30, 2020)

killer b said:


> For context, there has been some chat on  social media recently about how police shows reinforce the idea of cops being good guys etc etc in the popular consciousness - I think that's certainly true and worth thinking about, but I don't think it's a demand for people to justify their TV watching habits to the world.



Yeah there's some interesting reflections on this - sure David Graeber has an essay not he cosmological role of the police in American culture which I though was great, can't find it at the minute but this touches on some similar themes:



			https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/53222/1/Graeber_Dead_zones_imagination_2012.pdf


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tangential - LP mentor news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Moar today:









						Women speak out about Warren Ellis: 'Full and informed consent was impossible'
					

Scores of women are publishing details of their relationships with the Transmetropolitan writer, who they say offered mentorship in exchange for sexual contact. But they don’t want him cancelled - they want a conversation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## kavenism (Jul 14, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> Moar today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, he was a prolific “love rat”. Isn’t that what fame is for? Have we become so cossetted that the realities of a culture that worships celebrity have entirely slipped from our minds?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism said:


> So, he was a prolific “love rat”. Isn’t that what fame is for? Have we become so cossetted that the realities of a culture that worships celebrity have entirely slipped from our minds?


Is that a question you are seeking to have answered?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism having up to 19 concurrent relationships without a) making it clear to his primary partner or b) each woman that they are not his only girlfriend is the behaviour of more than a 'love rat' as you call it.

It's the behaviour of someone who has no regard for anyone but himself and treats women like objects.


----------



## kavenism (Jul 14, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> kavenism having up to 19 concurrent relationships without a) making it clear to his primary partner or b) each woman that they are not his only girlfriend is the behaviour of more than a 'love rat' as you call it.
> 
> It's the behaviour of someone who has no regard for anyone but himself and treats women like objects.



Isn't that one plausible definition of a love rat, perhaps combined with the ethos of the "player" and "pick-up artist"? 
I don't doubt his profligacy, though I'd be surprised if it was quite as superhuman an effort as this article makes out. 19 at the same time? When would he have time to write?  It does say there that some of these "relationships" were online only, which doesn't really count in my book.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism said:


> Isn't that one plausible definition of a love rat, perhaps combined with the ethos of the "player" and "pick-up artist"?
> I don't doubt his profligacy, though I'd be surprised if it was quite as superhuman an effort as this article makes out. 19 at the same time? When would he have time to write?  It does say there that some of these "relationships" were online only, which doesn't really count in my book.


Are you seriously trying to argue that 'love rat' is a justifiable label for someone who has behaved like this? 'love rat' is a tabloid term for a man who cheats on his wife, not someone who objectifies women almost pathologically.

An online relationship can be very much as damaging as an in person relationship, if not more so because of the usually high emotional content.


----------



## kavenism (Jul 14, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Are you seriously trying to argue that 'love rat' is a justifiable label for someone who has behaved like this? 'love rat' is a tabloid term for a man who cheats on his wife, not someone who objectifies women almost pathologically.
> 
> An online relationship can be very much as damaging as an in person relationship, if not more so because of the usually high emotional content.



There’s nothing in this article that suggests he was objectifying these women, a concept that is a lot more complex than many seem to recognise. I defer to Martha Nussbaum on that subject. Having multiple partners does not necessitate objectification, though it can do.

Disrespectful? Opportunistic? Narcissistic? Indulgent? Deceitful? Certainly, his behaviour could be described like that, and I’m not defending him, it’s a shitty and degrading way to behave towards people. But there are ways of criticising someone like this (and the women who contributed to these articles seem to recognise that) which takes into account the complexities of the power relations at work and see a bigger picture with broader lessons to learn.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2020)

Did you just mansplain the objectification of women to me, kavenism ?


----------



## kavenism (Jul 14, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Did you just mansplain the objectification of women to me, kavenism ?



No I deferred to Martha Nussbaum, whose essay I found very useful when I was writing my MA thesis on objectification. Distinction, in case you were wondering.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism said:


> No I deferred to Martha Nussbaum, whose essay I found very useful when I was writing my MA thesis on objectification. Distinction, in case you were wondering.


Lol


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism said:


> No I deferred to Martha Nussbaum, whose essay I found very useful when I was writing my MA thesis on objectification. Distinction, in case you were wondering.


I wasn't.


----------



## inva (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism said:


> No I deferred to Martha Nussbaum, whose essay I found very useful when I was writing my MA thesis on objectification. Distinction, in case you were wondering.


----------



## LDC (Jul 14, 2020)

kavenism said:


> No I deferred to Martha Nussbaum, whose essay I found very useful when I was writing my MA thesis on objectification. Distinction, in case you were wondering.



An MA? On objectification? And a distinction? Do tell us more oh wise sage.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 14, 2020)

inva said:


>


_Having a bit of a crawl?  Good for you. You don't need to explain.  Because you wanted to - that's all the reason you need._


----------



## tim (Jul 14, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> An MA? On objectification? And a distinction? Do tell us more oh wise sage.



Ignore LynnDoyleCooper. The rest of us doubt your sagacity and have no desire to read your MA thesis, whatever it's distinctions. 

This thread is about exposing, mocking and belittling members of the Commentariat. Until you have a column in the New Statesman, you cannot expect to be seriously scoffed at upon it


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2020)

Perhaps he's a friend of Laurie's?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 28, 2020)

Anyone have an opinion/overview on James Bloodworth please -aside from the plagiarism?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 28, 2020)

I thought people were talking about a different Warren Ellis for a bit there.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Anyone have an opinion/overview on James Bloodworth please -aside from the plagiarism?


Some stuff on him on this very thread and elsewhere, the search function reveals


----------



## ska invita (Jul 28, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Some stuff on him on this very thread and elsewhere, the search function reveals


yes thanks, a bit bitty though. From AWL>Left Foot Forward to UnHerd is I suppose a well trodden trajectory, but he doesnt strike me as a full blown Nick Cohen type. Some dubious positions on international wars, but that in itself isn't worthy of being a right off. His book Hired on shit working conditions looks overall like a  job well done, but there's definitely a suspect whiff about him - I'd just like a bit of clarity on what he's really all about, if anyone knows.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 8, 2020)




----------



## agricola (Aug 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


>



".... and because there are loads of them, the price is going to be really cheap"


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 3, 2020)




----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 3, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


>




UK flag on anything other than a flag is dickish, including cars, guitars, sofa cushions, dogs etc. It’ll be used as an indicator for potential South Atlantic conscripts during the post-revolution cultural filtering.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 3, 2020)

The British flag is definitely fucking not neutral in Scotland. Or Ireland. Fuck me.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 3, 2020)

weepiper said:


> The British flag is definitely fucking not neutral in Scotland. Or Ireland. Fuck me.


it's not culturally neutral anywhere and neither is the Stars & Stripes


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2020)

except to people who are completely blind to such things


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 4, 2020)

Like who? The sort of people who say _I don't see colour_?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 4, 2020)

or shapes, or tories


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2020)

two sheds said:


> or shapes, or tories



So, blind cunts, then?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 4, 2020)

i actually meant culturally blind but never mind


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

feck off


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

Jack Monroe on why she's adding 'politician' to her CV
					

Writer and cook Jack Monroe has turned politician, standing as an independent. She talks Labour’s future, the PM’s punk wardrobe and dating with Rosamund Urwin




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2021)

cantsin said:


> Jack Monroe on why she's adding 'politician' to her CV
> 
> 
> Writer and cook Jack Monroe has turned politician, standing as an independent. She talks Labour’s future, the PM’s punk wardrobe and dating with Rosamund Urwin
> ...


" I had to crowdfund my rent this month. "? WTF? She was famous with a bestselling book out by that point (thats from 2017 btw)

she goes on to say

" The Groucho rang me last week to find out if I was OK because I hadn’t been in. I was like, ‘Are your profits suffering?’” "

jesus


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> " I had to crowdfund my rent this month. "? WTF? She was famous with a bestselling book out by that point (thats from 2017 btw)



I just don't believe her / in her, re: most stuff


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2021)

cantsin said:


> I just don't believe her / in her, re: most stuff




i believe more that shes been drinking in the super expensive luvvies groucho club more than that she needed to crowdfund her rent


----------



## LDC (Jan 13, 2021)

cantsin said:


> Jack Monroe on why she's adding 'politician' to her CV
> 
> 
> Writer and cook Jack Monroe has turned politician, standing as an independent. She talks Labour’s future, the PM’s punk wardrobe and dating with Rosamund Urwin
> ...



Fucking hell, that is about as coherent as Priti Patel's briefings.


----------



## Edie (Jan 13, 2021)

cantsin said:


> I just don't believe her / in her, re: most stuff


She’s full of shit. Has the left totally wrapped round her finger


----------



## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Has the left totally wrapped round her finger


What does this mean? IME there is a large range of views on the left about Monroe - much of it pretty negative...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2021)

Capitol hill lols


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2021)

I still like her hair but don't buy a fucking word she says anymore.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> She’s full of shit. Has the left totally wrapped round her finger


Like a siren calling the sailors


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 21, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> View attachment 250326


had to check that was real








						Sex and the City Is Back and I Couldn’t Help but Wonder: Will the Show Finally Throw Off Shackles of Capitalism? | Novara Media
					

As the hit HBO franchise returns for its seventh season, Eleanor Penny asks whether our heroines will at last escape their opulent purgatory.




					novaramedia.com
				



the piece isnt as bad as it seems as the headlines seems
Its true, SATC's politics are so shit - fuck Mr Big, he's a cunt. All the characters are deeply dislikeable


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 21, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> View attachment 250326


My god, there's another one of them. Suspect I'm last to know.


----------



## rekil (Jan 21, 2021)

S☼I said:


> My god, there's another one of them. Suspect I'm last to know.


There's an always sunny line for everything.



Spoiler


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 21, 2021)

Apparently Sarkar has now become someone who watches the scenes kicking off in Bristol and thinks "what will the Tory backbenchers say?"


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 21, 2021)

Seems reasonable, in that it's not some product of Westminster political strategy, and nor should it be. If there's a flaw it's assuming that strategy is based around that (but there's no planned "strategy" anyway).


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 21, 2021)

Idk, it feels a bit funny to me coming from someone whose career and media platform comes out of the 2010/11 student protests?


----------



## Riklet (Mar 21, 2021)

I think thats harsh and not what shes saying. Shes analysing things tactically from the sidelines but not in a handwringing liberal way.

Tbh I dont think of Ash Sarkar and the Novara lot as the commentariat, even though I disagree with some of their stuff etc. Not got nothing on Owen Jones and various Guardian hacks!


----------



## tim (Mar 22, 2021)

My memory is that anger on the streets put paid to the Poll Tax, and the reaction on the Tory backbenches was to dump Thatcher.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 11, 2021)

WTF


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 11, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> WTF



Worst PowerPoint ever.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

Dawn Foster seems to have been one
of the only members of the Commentariat with full Urban approval. Was very sad to hear of her death.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2021)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 21, 2021)

Christ would you look at that. Britain's Christopher Walken in raspberry.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2021)

Matt Bellamy: the Crack Years


----------



## killer b (Aug 21, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Matt Bellamy: the Crack Years


I was wondering who it reminded me of, and it's definitely Matt Bellamy. 

Apparently he's promoting his debut novel, which sounds - if it's possible - even more excruciating than this photoshoot: it's about a maverick druggy journalist at the dawn of the New Labour years.


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 284544



aboutt to do his karaoke rendition of ’the pina colada song’....


----------



## tim (Aug 21, 2021)

Has Laurie Penny made it to GBNewts, yet?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2021)

tim said:


> Has Laurie Penny made it to GBNewts, yet?


She's busy being a telly drama scriptwriter in Murkah


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> She's busy being a telly drama scriptwriter in Murkah


quite prestige material too - The Nevers (wonder what she has to say about Joss Whedon) and The Haunting Of Bly Manor


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2021)

Mic on Pesto









						The thrilling adventures of Pobert Reston! What Peston's ropey roman-à-clef tells us about modern journalism...
					

"I really enjoyed your novel ... way of writing a fucking awful story."




					brokenbottleboy.substack.com


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 22, 2021)

Wasn’t sure where to put this.  I don’t even know where to begin.  It’s part of a baffling discourse that rumbles along on Twitter that trans rights will make Scotland like the Handmaid’s Tale (in ways that I can’t comprehend and frankly don’t make sense).

There’s absolutely no way to engage with this level of bonkersness.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 284544





> your dad cosplaying a chip-shop saveloy



In case anyone missed it


----------



## co-op (Aug 24, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 284726
> 
> Wasn’t sure where to put this.  I don’t even know where to begin.  It’s part of a baffling discourse that rumbles along on Twitter that trans rights will make Scotland like the Handmaid’s Tale (in ways that I can’t comprehend and frankly don’t make sense).
> 
> There’s absolutely no way to engage with this level of bonkersness.


I thought this was the Subject that May Not Be Discussed on U75?


----------



## rekil (Dec 24, 2021)

It's chrisssssssmas so here's two pro-plague genocidal liberal shitshovelling hottakes for the price of one.


----------



## tim (Dec 24, 2021)

rekil said:


> It's chrisssssssmas so here's two pro-plague genocidal liberal shitshovelling hottakes for the price of one.
> 
> View attachment 302838



You must be the only person posting here who Laurie Penny hasn't blocked. You're letting the side down.


----------



## rekil (Dec 24, 2021)

tim said:


> You must be the only person posting here who Laurie Penny hasn't blocked. You're letting the side down.


@nazihacker1488 likes this


----------



## 8ball (Dec 26, 2021)

rekil said:


> It's chrisssssssmas so here's two pro-plague genocidal liberal shitshovelling hottakes for the price of one.
> 
> View attachment 302838


I'm not sure I fully understand your post.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 26, 2021)

tim said:


> You must be the only person posting here who Laurie Penny hasn't blocked. You're letting the side down.



She hasn't blocked me yet.
Anyone got a message to pass on?

(I'm not sure I remember who she is, but the name sounds like some kind of liberal trustafarian)


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 31, 2021)




----------



## 8ball (Dec 31, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


>




Well, that's put a spring in my step for 2022..


----------



## rekil (Jan 1, 2022)

Louis Allday is from the bonkers beeleyite commentariat wing whose cv consists mostly of "I was a research intern at the British Embassy in Damascus. In 2009"


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2022)

The brightest girl in the school gets a shoeing 









						Sexual Revolution by Laurie Penny review – playing fast and loose with the f-word
					

Poorly researched and lacking serious analysis, this ‘searing critique of male dominance’ is almost comically relentless




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The brightest girl in the school gets a shoeing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It may well be a very lightweight book (I've not read it and don't know) but I think it's a very dishonest review in which LP was never to be given a chance because she's taken the 'wrong' position on trans issues, according to the guardian mafia. Slight giveaway here: "who therefore has some trouble with the word woman". But otherwise I think the reviewer is studiously avoiding the thing she's most annoyed about, and which is the real reason it was decided that LP should be given a kicking in the guardian.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 8, 2022)

Regardless of the merits (or lack thereof) of the book in question, I can tell that review is fucking shit.



> It should also be noted that there are currently a lot of authoritarians around: Bolsonaro, Johnson, Putin, Trump, Jacinda Ardern … No, _not _Ardern. Ha, I almost got you there, didn’t I? Actually, Penny doesn’t mention Ardern at all, nor even Angela Merkel.



Does this reviewer think that Jacinda Ardern and Angela Merkel are authoritarians? If not, why the fuck even mention them?


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Regardless of the merits (or lack thereof) of the book in question, I can tell that review is fucking shit.
> 
> 
> 
> Does this reviewer think that Jacinda Ardern and Angela Merkel are authoritarians? If not, why the fuck even mention them?


Yeah that was fucking weird. Ardern is authoritarian because she used government powers to stop lots of people dying in the pandemic perhaps? Merkel I can't even guess what she's trying to imply.


----------



## killer b (Feb 8, 2022)

I think she's just sore about her favourite girlbosses not being in the feminism book


----------



## JimW (Feb 8, 2022)

However shit the review is, the book does sound pretty execrable too if she's even halfway accurate with those quotes, and the accusations seem vintage Penny - convenient anecdotes from circle of friends etc.


----------



## rekil (Feb 8, 2022)

> It should also be noted that there are currently a lot of authoritarians around: Bolsonaro, Johnson, Putin, Trump, Jacinda Ardern … No, _not _Ardern. Ha, I almost got you there, didn’t I? Actually, Penny doesn’t mention Ardern at all, nor even Angela Merkel.


I don't think she's accusing Ardern or Merkel of being authoritarians, just pointing out that they're inconveniently powerful women. My main beef with the review is that the 100% cancellable expression "no shit sherlock" gets wheeled out.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2022)

The reviewers stripey top is a warning sign


----------



## rekil (Feb 9, 2022)

JimW said:


> However shit the review is, the book does sound pretty execrable too if she's even halfway accurate with those quotes, and the accusations seem vintage Penny - convenient anecdotes from circle of friends etc.


The important thing is that she made it in LA and you didn't. 



Spoiler








On the other hand the patreon is down to €1600 a month. Enmeshed in a world of poverty redux.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 10, 2022)

The phrase 'girlboss' is infantalising and unnecessary ever say 'manboss' or 'boyboss', Guardian  reviewer?


----------



## rekil (Feb 10, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> The phrase 'girlboss' is infantalising and unnecessary ever say 'manboss' or 'boyboss', Guardian  reviewer?



It was popularised by this person apparently.









						Sophia Amoruso - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




/shudder



> Sophia, a misfit, discovers a passion for fashion, becoming an unlikely businesswoman in the process. As her business grows, however, she has to learn to cope with life as her own boss. This show is loosely based on the true story of Nasty Gal Founder, Sophia Amoruso.











						Girlboss (TV Series 2017) - IMDb
					

Girlboss: Created by Kay Cannon. With Britt Robertson, Ellie Reed, Johnny Simmons, Alphonso McAuley. Sophia, a misfit, discovers a passion for fashion, becoming an unlikely businesswoman in the process. As her business grows, however, she has to learn to cope with life as her own boss. This show...




					www.imdb.com
				




Oh dear.









						Lawsuit: Nasty Gal's #GIRLBOSS Fired Employees For Getting Pregnant
					

A new lawsuit claims that hip, woman-led clothing company Nasty Gal is “a horrible place to work for professional women who become pregnant,” accusing the company of illegally firing four pregnant women. The suit, filed by ex-employee Aimee Concepcion, says Nasty Gal terminated her and three...




					jezebel.com


----------



## killer b (Feb 10, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> The phrase 'girlboss' is infantalising and unnecessary ever say 'manboss' or 'boyboss', Guardian  reviewer?


Don't think the reviewer used the phrase tbf, that was me


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

Yeah, I think it's a useful word as a shorthand for a certain approach.


----------



## tim (Feb 10, 2022)

killer b said:


> Don't think the reviewer used the phrase tbf, that was me


Which makes you worse than a Guardian reviewer, and they're ten times worse than Hitler.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2022)

oh dear 









						Why We Need the Patriarchy
					

Compact Magazine, a radical American journal



					compactmag.com


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> oh dear
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sup bruh?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2022)

Its quite sad that Nina Power has come to this...I know this isnt a new turn of events, but still


----------



## flypanam (Mar 23, 2022)

That mag got quite a write up in the NYT Two Religious Conservatives and a Marxist Walk Into a Journal


----------



## yield (Mar 23, 2022)

flypanam said:


> That mag got quite a write up in the NYT Two Religious Conservatives and a Marxist Walk Into a Journal





> “I think people are absolutely tired of this division,” said Nina Power, a British philosopher and self-described “open-minded centrist” with roots in Marxist feminism whose book “What Do Men Want?” offers a feminist defense of masculinity.
> 
> “Left and right are both features of liberalism,” she said. “We’re more interested in the questions that unite us, whatever our political backgrounds.”


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2022)

jesus christ.


----------



## petee (Mar 23, 2022)

"whose book “What Do Men Want?” "

#womenwritingmen


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 23, 2022)

Yeah, Nina Power's turn has been quite something to watch. I used to see her at left wing protests and now she writes for the Spectator and whatever the fuck that new mag is. Her association with DC Miller has clearly done nothing good for her politics, though I suppose we shouldn't blame him. Or maybe we need patriarchy and the man should set the politics in a relationship? What do I know? 

As a note of interest, as far as I can see her slide towards 'patriarchy is good actually' started with her saying some things that trans people found offensive. Instead of having a think about why they might find it offensive, she just got incredibly defensive, and people attacked her for that, and then she decided she wasn't on board with the 'intolerant left' and found other people who hated the 'intolerant left'.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 23, 2022)

I do still intend to read the new Power book some time soon, out of some kind of principle or another, but I'm not expecting to be a big fan of it. For those who haven't been following, there's some backstory over on the industrial thread: Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 23, 2022)

Missed a trick by not calling it Men: What Do They Want? Do They Want Things? Let's Find Out!, imo.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I do still intend to read the new Power book some time soon, out of some kind of principle or another, but I'm not expecting to be a big fan of it.


I think i first heard about the fact this book was coming quite a few years ago now, and remember thinking then that it would be great that this newest wave of feminism might lead to more people talking critically and constructively about masculinity - there's definitely a need and appetite for that to happen. Nina Power seemed like a good person to do it... but that was before (I was aware of)  this bizarre turn she has gone through....its clear from that article this book is going to be confused nonsense - I see no reason to read it.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 24, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I think i first heard about the fact this book was coming quite a few years ago now, and remember thinking then that it would be great that this newest wave of feminism might lead to more people talking critically and constructively about masculinity - there's definitely a need and appetite for that to happen. Nina Power seemed like a good person to do it... but that was before (I was aware of)  this bizarre turn she has gone through....its clear from that article this book is going to be confused nonsense - I see no reason to read it.


Yeah, it's interesting (in a depressing kind of way), I think of that stuff from 2019 as being like "the start of bad Nina Power", but going back and looking at that page again, there's this bit (that you quoted actually):


> But you are no doubt wondering by now why I have this reputation as a TERF. It is true that I have said things in private disagreeing with the current understanding of gender (as innate) in favour of the second-wave feminist idea that gender is imposed upon sex, and that gender roles are generally damaging and harmful to boys and girls and men and women, and I hold in general, as many feminists and some trans activists also do, a gender abolitionist position, i.e., that I would simply like everyone to feel free to be, wear and love whoever they would like without fear of or actual social punishment or internal shame. To feel unfree because of expectations that one must behave in such and such a way because one is a girl or a boy, or a man or a woman, is, it seems to me, a core diagnosis of the second wave feminist project, and this insight is reflected in those periods of history where feminists and gay rights come together to oppose stereotypical expectations.


How do you get from that to the "in defence of patriarchy" stuff above in less than three years?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 13, 2022)

Who is the left now.


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2022)

Barry Mainwaring can't even get on novara, never mind murdovision.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 13, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Who is the left now.
> 
> View attachment 318404


I took Rachel Connolly's thread today to be about Blakeley's publicly announced reasoning for taking the job:


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 13, 2022)

Weirdly Freedom's run-in with the Times today wasn't intended as a retort to Blakeley at all. Worked out nicely though. Happy coincidences ...


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Apr 13, 2022)

Brainaddict said:


> I took Rachel Connolly's thread today to be about Blakeley's publicly announced reasoning for taking the job:




Blakeley's latest career move made me think of this solid piece by Holly Rigby from last year.


----------



## LDC (Apr 13, 2022)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Blakeley's latest career move made me think of this solid piece by Holly Rigby from last year.



The Morning Star as one of the best examples of Left media though? Urgh.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 13, 2022)

I've occasionally read the Morning Star over the years, sometimes even fairly regularly. But it is frequently dogshit.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 13, 2022)

so for those like me who dont understand what is going on i presume its this:


the thread explains/justifies why she is going on it
only thing is, wtf is Talk TV? also what is News UK? are they popular? More popular than GB News? 
cupid_stunt


----------



## Sue (Apr 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> so for those like me who dont understand what is going on i presume its this:
> 
> 
> the thread explains/justifies why she is going on it
> only thing is, wtf is Talk TV? also what is News UK? are they popular? cupid_stunt



I have no idea who she is. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## ska invita (Apr 13, 2022)

Sue said:


> I have no idea who she is. 🤷‍♀️


she's a left-leaning commentator /author about economics


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> only thing is, wtf is Talk TV? also what is News UK?





> News Corp UK & Ireland Limited (trading as News UK, formerly News International and NI Group) is a British newspaper publisher, and a wholly owned subsidiary of the American mass media conglomerate News Corp.[1] It is the current publisher of _The Times_, _The Sunday Times_ and _The Sun_ newspapers; its former publications include the _Today_, _News of the World_ and _The London Paper_ newspapers. Until June 2002, it was called *News International plc*.[2] On 31 May 2011, the company name was changed from News International Limited to NI Group Limited,[3] and on 26 June 2013 to News UK.



The CEO is Rebekah Brooks.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 13, 2022)

And Tom Newton Dunn famously ran a front page Corbyn hit piece on the front page of The Sun, based on research that quoted neo-nazis Aryan Unity as a credible source.








						Why did the Sun publish a far-right conspiracy theory? | Daniel Trilling
					

The tabloid swiftly deleted its dubious exclusive linking Labour to a shadowy ‘network’ of postmodern hard-left extremists, says author Daniel Trilling




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> so for those like me who dont understand what is going on i presume its this:
> ]


it was that, yeah. Apologies for not explaining it all but I thought that tweet I quoted was more revealing than the backstory.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 13, 2022)

Ah News UK is News International...and Talk TV hasnt launched yet.

Im not totally unsympathetic of people trying to "leave the proverbial echo chamber and pitch socialist ideas to a wider audience" as she puts it, though i suspect the house always wins.


----------



## Lurdan (Apr 13, 2022)

The online row Grace Blakely's tweet has provoked is rather grimly entertaining. I'm sympathetic to some of what Josie Sparrow said in a twitter thread






twitter thread link

But for me what she says is then undermined/'contextualised' when she comes back later to suggest that New Socialist (which she writes for) and Red Pepper represent some kind of alternative. 
Rather a lot of this 'row' is about people cunting off Blakely while inviting us to admire the wonderful shiny spoon which they themselves have chosen to employ in supping with the devil.

This is taken to one logical extreme by Dr Lisa McKenzie





Twitter link

A little later she clarified further






Presumably it was also a 'victory' for 'working class representation' when, up to the end of last year, Dr McKenzie was able to write regular opinion pieces for the Russia Today website.
They included this last September about the 'diversity' strategy announced by multinational accountancy firm KPMG.



> The firm’s chair, Bina Mehta – who said she comes from a working-class background – announced that she was a _“passionate believer that greater diversity improves business performance”_ and added: _“Diversity brings fresh thinking and different perspectives to decision-making, which in turn delivers better outcomes for our clients.”_
> 
> I would never have thought that I would possibly agree with and approve of a decision made by such arch global capitalists, and yet I do. I think Mehta is absolutely right that lack of diversity in any industry or organisation means it becomes very quickly out of touch, self referential and irrelevant. Look at British politics or the British media as perfect examples of that – the British establishment, whether they are left or right, liberal or conservative, are uniformly middle class, mostly coming from private schools and elite universities like Oxford or Cambridge.





> Sam Friedman and Daniel Laurison, colleagues of mine when I worked at the London School of Economics, wrote a book in 2019 entitled, _The Class Ceiling - Why it pays to be privileged_. Their research showed almost all of those occupying senior positions in law, business, academia, politics and the media were from middle- or upper-class backgrounds, and that the British class system is in better shape than it ever has been.
> 
> Social mobility has effectively stopped in this country – it is more important what your parents do for a living, and where you went to university, than any actual skill or talent you possess.
> 
> The news that an organisation like KPMG are not only acknowledging that the class system exists, and working-class people also exist, and are disadvantaged within it, is a great first step – and they are adopting policies to actually counter that disadvantage.





I should stress that she hasn't written for Russia Today since last December. Instead like many of the other participants in the row over Grace Blakeley she has other projects.





Twitter link

When James Brown sang


> I don't want nobody
> To give me nothing
> Open up the door
> I'll get it myself


At least you could dance to it.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 13, 2022)

Yeah, as vile as TND personally is I find it hard to get very worked up about this one?


----------



## Sue (Apr 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> she's a left-leaning commentator /author about economics


So according to Wikipedia, privately educated, PPE at Oxford, worked as a management consultant at KPMG, gig at the New Statesman at 25.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 13, 2022)

I agree with lots that McKenzie has to say and did scratch my head when she started publishing articles through RT. I guess we've all got bills to pay though.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Apr 13, 2022)

Can anyone explain why Josie Sparrow ain't keen on the LRB? I'm quite fond of the unread pile of copies I have in the corner of my room.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Apr 13, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The Morning Star as one of the best examples of Left media though? Urgh.



Yeah fair enough, she was reaching there.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 13, 2022)

Most people amongst the self-proclaimed Left Wing Commentariat ultimately make their decisions on the key factor of 'but I want to do it' anyway. All the justifications following on from that are just fluff. They want money, they want a platform, they want to feel relevant, so they delude themselves as to reasons why it's essential to some wider struggle that they pop up on Murdoch TV. Don't think that's overly worth getting offended about though really, most of them are neither journalists or activists, they're just people with opinions and they only stand out because so few people in the media landscape are playing that role with any kind of Left Wing credentials. Practically though they're of no more use than the likes of Dan Hodges on the Right and Tories never get as excited about his incessant stream of pish as the Left does about Jones, Sarkar or Blakely.

As far as expanding cultural power within the media goes shit posters, vaguely popular YouTubers and parody accounts have done more to irritate and subvert the mainstream narrative than the big talking heads ever have. Plus they're less likely to drift off into Paul Mason-esque insanity to keep their names on the billboard.


----------



## Lurdan (Apr 14, 2022)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Can anyone explain why Josie Sparrow ain't keen on the LRB? I'm quite fond of the unread pile of copies I have in the corner of my room.


From the mention of Grenfell I assume she's referring to Andrew O'Hagan's 2018 essay 'The Tower' which took the 'interesting' viewpoint that Kensington & Chelsea Council and the hard pressed functionaries in the 'TMO' it set up to manage it's housing stock were really doing their best but had been caught between central Government policy and cuts on the one hand, and a faction of unreasonable stroppy tenants on the other. It had it's arse kicked at the time - for example here and here.

Only this week it was cited at the Inquiry, by one of the legal teams representing bereaved survivors and residents, as exemplifying the Council's viewpoint and initial justification for its actions and inactions. I don't think it's 'controversial' to suggest that the evidence heard at the Inquiry hasn't really supported the notion that the Council and the 'TMO' should be classed among the victims of the fire.

(While I thought the article, the authors response to his critics and the LRB's silence over the criticisms were disgraceful, it wouldn't lead me to boycott the LRB myself. But since I choose to spend my limited resources elsewhere it doesn't really arise).


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 14, 2022)

ska invita said:


> so for those like me who dont understand what is going on i presume its this:
> 
> 
> the thread explains/justifies why she is going on it
> ...




TalkTV thread -









						Piers Morgan rehired by Murdoch for his new TalkTV
					

Why do you ask?  Not sure why. Just sprung to mind. Do you though?




					www.urban75.net
				




They are currently testing with a looped promo, launches on Mon 27th April.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 14, 2022)

Sue said:


> So according to Wikipedia, privately educated, PPE at Oxford, worked as a management consultant at KPMG, gig at the New Statesman at 25.


On the whole she comes across as someone who knows what they are talking about, but like all economic commentators she also seems to get it just as wrong as the rest of them...ive yet to find anyone who talks about economic near future who does much better than predicting yesterday. 

There are a few marx-influenced economists who have had big City jobs I'm vaguely aware of...names escape me though Michael Roberts is one - i think he was a trader. (eta Tony Norfield another IIRC)

Maybe considering Grace's childhood background this kind of TV gig is best for her - a good fit - I think she should knock herself out with it. 

One of the problems of tv talking heads with any left bent is they are so few and far between that is easy to quickly feel disgusted by them popping up everywhere - if they were one of a 100 as opposed to one of 3 I think it would be easier to swallow

Lisa M is a massive hypocrite btw for the record there.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 14, 2022)

YouSir said:


> As far as expanding cultural power within the media goes shit posters, vaguely popular YouTubers and parody accounts have done more to irritate and subvert the mainstream narrative than the big talking heads ever have.


interesting point - unprovable - but interesting. None of my close friends or family use Twitter for example (one person does) - not even to read. 
tv/ corporate media in general, definitely has a different demographic audience to (corporate) social media.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 14, 2022)

Lurdan said:


> From the mention of Grenfell I assume she's referring to Andrew O'Hagan's 2018 essay 'The Tower' which took the 'interesting' viewpoint that Kensington & Chelsea Council and the hard pressed functionaries in the 'TMO' it set up to manage it's housing stock were really doing their best but had been caught between central Government policy and cuts on the one hand, and a faction of unreasonable stroppy tenants on the other. It had it's arse kicked at the time - for example here and here.
> 
> Only this week it was cited at the Inquiry, by one of the legal teams representing bereaved survivors and residents, as exemplifying the Council's viewpoint and initial justification for its actions and inactions. I don't think it's 'controversial' to suggest that the evidence heard at the Inquiry hasn't really supported the notion that the Council and the 'TMO' should be classed among the victims of the fire.
> 
> (While I thought the article, the authors response to his critics and the LRB's silence over the criticisms were disgraceful, it wouldn't lead me to boycott the LRB myself. But since I choose to spend my limited resources elsewhere it doesn't really arise).


Yeah, I boycotted it from 2018-2021 for precisely that reason before giving in on the grounds that my old grudge was starting to feel a bit stale and they didn't seem to have done anything comparably bad since? Still rankles that O'Hagan's still an editor or something similar there though.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 14, 2022)

ska invita said:


> interesting point - unprovable - but interesting. None of my close friends or family use Twitter for example (one person does) - not even to read.
> tv/ corporate media in general, definitely has a different demographic audience to (corporate) social media.



You don't really need to participate for it to have an effect though. Even if you just consume trad. media then, chances are, a lot of the talking heads you'll see are there because they've built (or maintained) their relevance/fame/marketability on social media. Even if most people don't use it and especially don't follow a load of political accounts those in the media do and the more they use it to build their own audiences the more they legitimise it as a platform to pay attention to. Think they only occasionally realise how self-defeating that can be when the usual 'ban internet anonymity' and 'evil internet trolls' stuff goes around.

YouTube is an even bigger thing, I'd say that with Trump and certainly the anti-vaxx stuff that was a far bigger motivator for those out actively protesting and doing stuff than even Fox News.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 14, 2022)

YouSir said:


> YouTube is an even bigger thing, I'd say that with Trump and certainly the anti-vaxx stuff that was a far bigger motivator for those out actively protesting and doing stuff than even Fox News.


Quite possibly, indie (social) media definitely strongest with those at the extremes of political opinion but corporate media still massively influential and dominant.. And hegemonic


----------



## YouSir (Apr 14, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Quite possibly, indie (social) media definitely strongest with those at the extremes of political opinion but corporate media still massively influential and dominant.. And hegemonic



Debatable, certainly with younger demographics. Not to say that social media isn't similarly open to corporate influence - it absolutely is, but the trends for news consumption especially are only going in one direction and it's not young people turning their TVs on or buying newspapers.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 14, 2022)

YouSir said:


> Debatable, certainly with younger demographics. Not to say that social media isn't similarly open to corporate influence - it absolutely is, but the trends for news consumption especially are only going in one direction and it's not young people turning their TVs on or buying newspapers.


Agree, but there's 40 years before this generation fades out so this demographic still crucial


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Apr 14, 2022)

Lurdan said:


> From the mention of Grenfell I assume she's referring to Andrew O'Hagan's 2018 essay 'The Tower' which took the 'interesting' viewpoint that Kensington & Chelsea Council and the hard pressed functionaries in the 'TMO' it set up to manage it's housing stock were really doing their best but had been caught between central Government policy and cuts on the one hand, and a faction of unreasonable stroppy tenants on the other. It had it's arse kicked at the time - for example here and here.
> 
> Only this week it was cited at the Inquiry, by one of the legal teams representing bereaved survivors and residents, as exemplifying the Council's viewpoint and initial justification for its actions and inactions. I don't think it's 'controversial' to suggest that the evidence heard at the Inquiry hasn't really supported the notion that the Council and the 'TMO' should be classed among the victims of the fire.
> 
> (While I thought the article, the authors response to his critics and the LRB's silence over the criticisms were disgraceful, it wouldn't lead me to boycott the LRB myself. But since I choose to spend my limited resources elsewhere it doesn't really arise).



Thanks, I had no idea.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 14, 2022)

I think there's a general problem with successfuly left voices not being involved in or reflecting what is happening in struggles on the ground. Surely your role as a left media voice should be to channel people into these struggles? I can forgive a privileged upbringing if people allow themselves to be used as a voice for others in mainstream media, and if they are using their positions to channel energy into movements. But that's not what happens. It's not what Blakeley does. Or what most of them do. So what's the point? Proving you can argue a point against TND? That's not going to grow any movements for change. 

I imagine they see themselves as somehow keeping the 'overton window' open by voicing left ideas on mainstream channels, but in reality its sheer tokenism by those channels. 95% of their content points the other way. So on their own terms I think these commentators are being outsmarted by the channels/papers they work for.


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 14, 2022)

Freedom's collective principles aside, as a personal thing I think the questions when engaging with mainstream media for most groups should generally revolve around whether a) you'll get a fair hearing b) the audience might be open to listening c) is there a point to doing so?

A turn on GB News for example? Obviously not. Even if you win the debate in front of a tiny audience of batshit moustache twitchers, the next hour of programming will involve the show doing a public "what I'd have said if I'd remembered" shower moment and all you get is a Twitter dunk that will barely register outside your existing fans. Wartime considerations aside, RT was actually a considerably better prospect when it was allowed, because while your audience is a weird one it may well be interested and you get more space to say your piece. I'd still not (and I'm certainly not defending Lisa McKenzie), because I'd rather not be associated with the likes of Galloway and Max Keiser, but I can see why people might.

TalkTV will be more similar to GB with a strong dose of Fox, and I'd see Blakeley acting primarily as the bullied liberal outnumbered 3:1 in every conversation, which is absolutely standard on Fox, for example. She'll act as cover for their general programming while changing few, if any, minds. No doubt it pays well.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree with lots that McKenzie has to say and did scratch my head when she started publishing articles through RT. I guess we've all got bills to pay though.


Could always get an honest job.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 14, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Could always get an honest job.



I think she works in higher education / academia now.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 14, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I think she works in higher education / academia now.


So she just does RT and GB for shit and giggles


----------



## ska invita (Apr 14, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> to  I'd see Blakeley acting primarily as the bullied liberal outnumbered 3:1 in every conversation, which is absolutely standard on Fox, for example. She'll act as cover for their general programming while changing few, if any, minds. No doubt it pays well.


Aye, this is what I meant by the house always wins


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 14, 2022)

nogojones said:


> So she just does RT and GB for shit and giggles



I didn’t realise she still was. Some time ago when I saw her published by RT.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 5, 2022)

It's wrong and bad to post up embarrassing things from people's youth. 

But goddamit if this is wrong, I don't want to be right. 



An excellent find courtesy of Splits and Fusions archive:









						Odds & Ends: Comrade Jones and the ISKRA Journal
					

ISKRA was apparently an email discussion list at the turn of the century. I don’t remember it although I was on a number of similar lists eg UK Left Network around that time. The ISKRA list w…




					splitsandfusions.wordpress.com


----------



## ska invita (May 5, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's wrong and bad to post up embarrassing things from people's youth.
> 
> But goddamit if this is wrong, I don't want to be right.
> 
> ...


Would he have been aged fifteen when he wrote that ??


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 5, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Would be have been aged fifteen when he wrote that ??


Well yeah, born 1984 so 15/16 I guess. An odd editorial choice.


----------



## chilango (May 5, 2022)

rekil said:


> Barry Mainwaring can't even get on novara, never mind murdovision.


Who needs Novara when we've got...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 5, 2022)

Also all the fuss about Blakely appearing on this show seems to have been somewhat overstated in the end:


----------



## chilango (May 5, 2022)

As for Grace Blakeley? I'm not sure what else people expected her to do? That's her social world, always has been will be. That she chucks out the form occasional half-decent Marxish take is nice, but essentially meaningless beyond any use people make of it.


----------



## steeplejack (May 16, 2022)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 284544



Just catching up with this thread. Jesus Christ what an image. Looks like a shit NFT artist trying to interest you in his "new wallet".

Either that or an 80s rock manager back on the straight and narrow after a lost decade hoovering up all the coke on a remote Caribbean island


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 15, 2022)

Pointless question for a dull Wednesday afternoon, but don't suppose any of the seasoned commentariat-spotters on here know why Owen Hatherley seems to have just deactivated his twatter?


----------



## killer b (Jun 15, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Pointless question for a dull Wednesday afternoon, but don't suppose any of the seasoned commentariat-spotters on here know why Owen Hatherley seems to have just deactivated his twatter?


I think he's writing a book so only activates it sporadically when he's got something to promote etc


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 15, 2022)

killer b said:


> I think he's writing a book so only activates it sporadically when he's got something to promote etc


Ah, fair enough - he seemed to have been around for an argument/discussion of an article earlier today that's now impossible to piece back together due to his posts having disappeared, I didn't think that anything super dramatic seemed to have happened from what I can tell but always hard to say with twitter.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 19, 2022)

We really need to deradicalise the British media


----------



## rekil (Jul 15, 2022)

chilango said:


> Who needs Novara when we've got...



Time for a Proletarian Democracy Reacts channel before novara do one. Speeches and so forth by lefty luminaries to get broken down by a couple of the youngest members, anyone under 45 will do.


----------



## flypanam (Jul 19, 2022)

Not quite Urban vs the commentariat but rather private companies shits the bed about bad reviews. Apparently NZ company Zuru, a toy maker has won a courtcase in California that means that workers who gave the company a bad review have to be named, and open to possible* defamation cases. The reviews said that the company was a 'burn out factory' and had 'incompetent management'.









						Glassdoor ordered to reveal identity of negative reviewers to New Zealand toymaker
					

Court says workplace review platform must identify anonymous users who made Zuru ‘sound like a horrible place to work’




					www.theguardian.com
				




Nothing that workers in most workplaces say each and every day.

The authoritarian turn in the state and private government is something to behold.

*edited in.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 19, 2022)

in every case where the internet can be used by little people to tell exploiters and arseholes, sex cases and/or MPs a thing or two about themselfs, they respond by trying to identify the person at the keyboard  so they can bring real world consequences to bear on individuals. I expect to see serious attempts to make a digital ID tied to your real life info a prerequisite of surfing before I shuffle.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 19, 2022)

flypanam said:


> Not quite Urban vs the commentariat but rather private companies shits the bed about bad reviews. Apparently NZ company Zuru, a toy maker has won a courtcase in California that means that workers who gave the company a bad review have to be named, and open to possible* defamation cases. The reviews said that the company was a 'burn out factory' and had 'incompetent management'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they comply that's essentially their firm over and done with I'd have thought. If it was me I'd be tempted to just delete the details, take whatever fine was handed down and get to encrypting/moving out absolutely everything in sight ...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 19, 2022)

This is also the logical endpoint of indivisualised consumer rights as being the way that people deal with corporations, as shoppers and employees. 

With an obvious power imbalance...


----------



## tim (Sep 4, 2022)

Our former board-commrade, Laurie Penny has apparently had her patio nicked whilst out shopping. She is desperately milking this for attention with some success as I am posting details here.









						Woman gets back from shops to find her entire patio taken
					

She had only popped to the shops for a few hours




					www.mylondon.news
				




"North London Woman": how the mighty commentariat are fallen!


----------



## JimW (Sep 4, 2022)

Council in proactive maintenance work shocker.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 4, 2022)

I certainly appreciate her w/c credentials now I know that no matter how successful her career gets she's keeping her council flat.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I certainly appreciate her w/c credentials now I know that no matter how successful her career gets she's keeping her council flat.


I guess the COVID commune couldn't last forever


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I certainly appreciate her w/c credentials now I know that no matter how successful her career gets she's keeping her council flat.



This one?









						This Tiny 370-Square-Foot Home Is Packed With Brilliant Organizing Ideas
					

Laurie was diagnosed with ADHD over three years ago and knew a key component to managing her mental health would be the way her home looks, feels, and functions.




					www.apartmenttherapy.com


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No idea, that article doesn't mention a patio...


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

She was living in Brighton in 2018 . Done well to get a council flat in London


----------



## tim (Sep 4, 2022)

.


The39thStep said:


> She was living in Brighton in 2018 . Done well to get a council flat in London


Leasehold,  presumably.


----------



## petee (Sep 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



my apt is 380 sq ft, i'll be scouring that for ideas.


----------



## JimW (Sep 4, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I certainly appreciate her w/c credentials now I know that no matter how successful her career gets she's keeping her council flat.


Don't mind that, social housing for all!


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

tim said:


> Leasehold,  presumably.


As in it’s ex council but the council retain the leasehold ?


----------



## tim (Sep 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> As in it’s ex council but the council retain the leasehold ?


ExCouncil and the Council will retain the freehold: the buyer, either Penny or her landlord, will have, I assume, bought the property on a long lease.











						Leasehold property
					

Leasehold property - leasehold disputes, buying the freehold, service charges, lease extensions and Right to Manage




					www.gov.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2022)

Suppose this is probably the right thread, or as good a thread as any, for Eddie Dempsey vs Femi Oluwole?



Probably quite a bit to be said on this one, I think Dempsey is a dick in several ways but also think that he may well have been misrepresented here? Also I'm not watching this guy's 10-minute video but from briefly skipping through it I saw he was encouraging people to take any money that they would've donated to his legal funds and give it to Enough is Enough or the RMT, which is a pretty solid gesture, fair play to him on that one.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 19, 2022)

hitmouse I saw some of it and it seems to hinge on the classic “liberals are fabulous, progressive and anti-racist” vs “liberals are centrist shitbags who look down their noses at working class people”.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 19, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> hitmouse I saw some of it


Thoughts and prayers, comrade, thoughts and prayers 😢


----------



## rekil (Sep 20, 2022)

I don't think Femi really understands the arguments against identity politics and Dempsey is too much of a cunt to make them. Femi will be ok anyway. Dempsey threatened to sue people who said he was a bouncer for Beeley even though they were just repeating what Gerry Downing said in his weekly worker letter. He hasn't sued either of them funny enough. He just has the resources for these antics.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 30, 2022)

No 'Hot Centrist Takes' thread yet, so I'll shove this here. Hannah Al-Othman is a Buzzfeed hack who sees a commitment to social justice and a commitment to social injustice and thinks 'wow, snap!'


----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> No 'Hot Centrist Takes' thread yet, so I'll shove this here. Hannah Al-Othman is a Buzzfeed hack who sees a commitment to social justice and a commitment to social injustice and thinks 'wow, snap!'
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 345141


Main difference is that Corbyn was regularly ahead in the polls


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Main difference is that Corbyn was regularly ahead in the polls


the other main difference is that Al-Othman's employers and colleagues all assured us that one was a threat to the pensions and houses and national security, whereas this lot have been enthusiastically sold to us as political heavyweights time and again.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 1, 2022)

Urban V the Commentariat?, its a part of the same....a small part 
Half the most vocal posters here spend their days regurgitating shit from twitter


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Urban V the Commentariat?, its a part of the same....a small part
> Half the most vocal posters here spend their days regurgitating shit from twitter


Ooooh. Stroppy.


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## DaphneM (Oct 2, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Urban V the Commentariat?, its a part of the same....a small part
> Half the most vocal posters here spend their days regurgitating shit from twitter


I think it’s supposed to frame it as a bunch of plucky Americans anarchists up against the Main Stream Media…


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## hitmouse (Oct 4, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> No 'Hot Centrist Takes' thread yet, so I'll shove this here. Hannah Al-Othman is a Buzzfeed hack who sees a commitment to social justice and a commitment to social injustice and thinks 'wow, snap!'


I think I've said this before in response to a different idiot making the same comparison, but it's amazing how these people have just wiped 2017 from their brains. Obviously the Corbyn project was not all glorious electoral success all the time, but equally, I'll be very surprised if Truss' first election as leader sees her improving her party's vote share by almost 10% and picking up 30 new seats.


DaphneM said:


> I think it’s supposed to frame it as a bunch of plucky Americans anarchists up against the Main Stream Media…


Is Americans an autocorrect insertion there, or do you think u75 posters genuinely do try to frame themselves as plucky Americans?


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