# 5 yr old girl & 35 yr old man shot in Stockwell



## wemakeyousoundb (Mar 30, 2011)

Not much news so far.
Critical condition at the moment.
Maybe someone at one of the quizzes knows more as it happened next to the queen apparently.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12903670


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## EastEnder (Mar 30, 2011)

The main road outside my flat has been cordoned off all night, still loads of coppers there now doing the forensics.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 30, 2011)

Blimey. Glad I moved.


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## gabi (Mar 30, 2011)

that would explain the police cordon outside the queens head last night. fucking shit fuck. sick of this shit.


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## Rushy (Mar 30, 2011)

Just mentioned on R4 news.


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## colacubes (Mar 30, 2011)

I was at the Queens and at some point in the evening there were a shit load of cops and cars outside. Road was taped off from the next road up towards Stockwell to outside Brixton cycles so must have been in one of those shops. Someone asked one of the coppers what had happened and they said 5 year old girl shot. Myself and others thought this must be bullshit. Was monumentally depressed when I just heard it on the news


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2011)

Sounds like a similar situation to the family a few doors away from me. Out for the day, went into a shop on the way home, suddenly a gunfight starts on the street, spills into shop, son killed  I really hope this child survives and without long-term harm.


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## Rushy (Mar 30, 2011)

From Guardian:

"A worker at a nearby shop said he heard that a group of youths on bicycles had been involved in a row with a man at the shop. Shots were fired and the girl was hit accidentally.

Parents outside Stockwell primary school said they heard youths had returned and fired shots after they were banned from the shop."


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## RaverDrew (Mar 30, 2011)

A mate was in the shop when it happened


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## editor (Mar 30, 2011)

FFS: I hope the junior psychopaths responsible get banged up and quickly for the sake of the general public.


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## Voley (Mar 30, 2011)

Christ.


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## colacubes (Mar 30, 2011)

Rushy said:


> From Guardian:
> 
> "A worker at a nearby shop said he heard that a group of youths on bicycles had been involved in a row with a man at the shop. Shots were fired and the girl was hit accidentally.
> 
> Parents outside Stockwell primary school said they heard youths had returned and fired shots after they were banned from the shop."



My first thought that the only people so fucking stupid to do this would be kids


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 30, 2011)

it does seem to be all a bit crazy at the moment  some guy was stabbed just outside my door last week.   looks like  it's  the  kids from my road kicking off with a bunch of kids from the estate.   big fight week before  then  a follow up stabbing

cheery


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## Giles (Mar 30, 2011)

Completely fuxated behaviour all round. 

What is wrong with these people's brains that they resort to shooting people over the most trivial issues?

They seem to lack any kind of "impulse control" and have no ability to think further ahead than the next 30 seconds.

I hope this little kid (and the poor shopkeeper, if that's who the bloke is) are OK.

Giles..


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## Winot (Mar 30, 2011)

Fucking fuck. 

Good on Barney at Brixton Cycles though for emphasising the positive aspects of the area (on BBC report).


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> They seem to lack any kind of "impulse control" and have no ability to think further ahead than the next 30 seconds.


A lot of teenagers behave in that way every now and then. It's a teenage thing and happens before the brain matures. Luckily the vast majority of teenagers don't have guns. This isn't really about the lack of foresight of teenagers, it's about how cheap and easy it is to get guns.


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## agricola (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A lot of teenagers behave in that way every now and then. It's a teenage thing and happens before the brain matures. Luckily the vast majority of teenagers don't have guns. This isn't really about the lack of foresight of teenagers, it's about how cheap and easy it is to get guns.


 
I dunno, I think even the vast majority of teenagers in Stockwell wouldnt think about ever behaving like this - the problem is a small number of individuals who want to, or rather feel entitled to, act in a certain way in order to conform to a certain set of particularly idiotic standards.  You would hope that those who know the people responsible would take this chance to do something about it and turn them in.


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## Ms T (Mar 30, 2011)

We got home from holiday on Monday to a leaflet through the door saying there'd been a shooting incident on Chaucer Road last Monday - in broad daylight in the middle of the afternoon.  It's all a bit depressing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2011)

Report on it on ITV1 at 1.55pm


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## past caring (Mar 30, 2011)

Crimewatch outside the advice centre filming for their slot (the Chaucer Road one, I take it) when I arrived for work this morning.


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## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> Completely fuxated behaviour all round.
> 
> What is wrong with these people's brains that they resort to shooting people over the most trivial issues?
> 
> ...



Lack of impulse control and lack of empathy can be caused by abuse and neglect in early infancy.


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## Ms T (Mar 30, 2011)

past caring said:


> Crimewatch outside the advice centre filming for their slot (the Chaucer Road one, I take it) when I arrived for work this morning.


 
I saw two TV crews in Brixton today - one at the end our our road, and the other at the end of Bob Marley Way, opposite Kellett Road.  I assumed it was a Brixton Riots anniversary thing, but maybe not?


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## past caring (Mar 30, 2011)

The one outside was definitely Crimewatch - recognised the presenter.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I saw two TV crews in Brixton today - one at the end our our road, and the other at the end of Bob Marley Way, opposite Kellett Road.  I assumed it was a Brixton Riots anniversary thing, but maybe not?


 

Maybe an ITV crew.  News at 1.55pm


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## Ms T (Mar 30, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe an ITV crew.  News at 1.55pm


 
Would be weird as it's not really close to where the shooting happened.


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## EastEnder (Mar 30, 2011)

Gang war probe after girl, five, shot in Stockwell shop

That's my local corner shop!


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## kittyP (Mar 30, 2011)

It was all corndoned off when we came out the Queens Head last night. 
It seemed reasonably calm by 11 so I thought it might not have been that bad


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## girasol (Mar 30, 2011)

this is on my route to work, yes EastEnder, I cycle past your window a couple of times a week and do a mental wave at you... 

I don't even know what to say to this though, it's just insane    going on a shooting rampage because you get barred from a shop?  There's no justification for it.


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## Giles (Mar 30, 2011)

girasol said:


> this is on my route to work, yes EastEnder, I cycle past your window a couple of times a week and do a mental wave at you...
> 
> I don't even know what to say to this though, it's just insane    going on a shooting rampage because you get barred from a shop?  There's no justification for it.


 

These guys are strutting around with egos the size of a planet, and interpret anyone not letting them do exactly what they want as an "insult" worthy of savage animal violent reprisal.

Sooner they are caged the better for everyone's sake.

Giles..


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## girasol (Mar 30, 2011)

It's really sad that humans are capable of this kind of reasoning, something is seriously broken...   How much hatred for other people must they have?  And for themselves too.


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2011)

girasol said:


> It's really sad that humans are capable of this kind of reasoning, something is seriously broken...


 
In cases with behavour like this, I'd use the word 'human' in its loosest possible sense.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2011)

Ms T said:


> Would be weird as it's not really close to where the shooting happened.


 

Oh, possibly.

Saw another guy on the triangle bit of St Matthew's today being filmed.  Was a tanned looking guy with dark hair and 2 crew.  Same people?


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## shygirl (Mar 30, 2011)

I think the 'getting barred from the shop' being the reason might be wrong.


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## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

ajdown said:


> In cases with behavour like this, I'd use the word 'human' in its loosest possible sense.


 
Unfortunately, human beings are very capable of this kind of behaviour.  Even a cursory knowledge of history would tell anyone this.  To deny their humanity is stupid.


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## colacubes (Mar 30, 2011)

shygirl said:


> I think the 'getting barred from the shop' being the reason might be wrong.



You're possibly right.  All the news reports I've heard today on the radio have described 2 kids hiding in there and they were the intended targets.  The police want to try and find who they are as they will probably know who the shooters were.


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## EastEnder (Mar 30, 2011)

I've been in that shop hundreds of times, it's only a few doors down from my gaff. Scary stuff. I hope the victims make swift recoveries.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 30, 2011)

girasol said:


> It's really sad that humans are capable of this kind of reasoning, something is seriously broken...   How much hatred for other people must they have?  And for themselves too.


 
I think that "reasoning" isn't an accurate assessment. As agricola indicates, there are people who feel entitled to behave like this, and when they're indulging in some self-reinforcing group-think about "honour", "respect" or "territory", reasoning goes out of the window, with stupidity and bravado taking over.


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## Giles (Mar 30, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that "reasoning" isn't an accurate assessment. As agricola indicates, there are people who feel entitled to behave like this, and when they're indulging in some self-reinforcing group-think about "honour", "respect" or "territory", reasoning goes out of the window, with stupidity and bravado taking over.


 
What are they defending or fighting over, anyway? Their shithole against the guys from the dump down the road who look and behave exactly like they do. Probably like the same music, fashion, sport, whatever, so what the fuck? Shoot someone from the neighbouring estate coz its a different postcode. Dangerous levels of stupidity. Have they caught them yet? I hope they do, before they shoot someone else....

Giles..


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> Their shithole against the guys from the dump down the road who look and behave exactly like they do.


That's a very simplistic and highly prejudiced view. 

The boy a few doors away was shot dead in similar circumstances to the people shot last night and was completely blameless too. A good boy with no gang involvement at all. He was in a shop with his Mum. My son, who does not have gang involvement either was often attacked for being 'out of his area'. 

Maybe you think estates are dumps and shitholes but I bet you've never lived on one, nor come across the amazing funny bright good people who live on them, as I do. Attitudes such as yours, about people like me and mine, are part of the problem that marginalises and demonises entire sections of society. 

The only reason this has made national news is that a five year old girl has been shot. On the whole people aren't much interested when teenage boys are killed.


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## kittyP (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> What are they defending or fighting over, anyway? Their shithole against the guys from the dump down the road who look and behave exactly like they do. Probably like the same music, fashion, sport, whatever, so what the fuck? Shoot someone from the neighbouring estate coz its a different postcode. Dangerous levels of stupidity. Have they caught them yet? I hope they do, before they shoot someone else....
> 
> Giles..



Please don't misunderstand me, I abhor this kind of violence but we cannot possibly understand what it's like for these young people growing up in with the influences and culture that they do. 
It's dog eat dog and even though we don't understand why they are arguing over a bit of shitty street in Brixton, does not make it totally unfathomable. 
People have acted and thought like this since time immemorial (just with a vaguely different slant on it) but they just didn't have guns so easily to hand.

And when I say people, I mean all people, not just 'estate people'. 
We all have a penchant towards fighting for what is ours. Even if we just do it in a reasoned verbal way.


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## Jackobi (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The boy a few doors away was shot dead in similar circumstances to the people shot last night and was completely blameless too.


 
But he wasn't the intended victim was he? The intended victims probably are very similar to the perpetrators, young, black, poor, undereducated, wannabe gangsters living at a slightly different postcode on an almost identical council estate.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2011)

Doesn't make it right when "young, black, poor, undereducated, wannabe gangsters" get shot either. The difference is no-one much cares about that, indeed, some people seem to think their lives just don't matter at all. Which may have something to do with why things have got like this.


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## clandestino (Mar 30, 2011)

There was an excellent documentary on TV a few years back about gang culture, with the makers talking to a lot of gang members across the country, including in Tooting. The kids in the documentary talked very candidly about their lives and motivations, and the general conclusion was that when you have nothing much in your life - no money, no job, no prospects - the one thing you do have is the respect of your peers. If you lose that, then you really have nothing, hence the desire to keep that respect intact, no matter what.

Obviously there are plenty of other factors too, as Blagsta mentioned earlier, but that reasoning does make some kind of depressing sense. Depressing for the people who find themselves in that situation, as well as those bystanders affected by it. 

I lived on an estate off the south circular for a year or so, and my memory of it was that it was regular folks living there. I think it's simplistic to just blame this on kids living on estates, even though some of the gang members may well do. It's not about where you live, more about everything else that's going on in your life.


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## kittyP (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Doesn't make it right when "young, black, poor, undereducated, wannabe gangsters" get shot either. The difference is no-one much cares about that, indeed, *some people seem to think their lives just don't matter at all. Which may have something to do with why things have got like this.*


 
^^ this


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2011)

I've heard it described by a couple of chortling twats in a pub as 'ethnic cleansing'. I nearly got violently angry but decided it wasn't worth it so just left, shaking with rage.


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## kittyP (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I've heard it described by a couple of chortling twats in a pub as 'ethnic cleansing'. I nearly got violently angry but decided it wasn't worth it so just left, shaking with rage.


 
That's terrible. 
Were they also discussing how "jolly awful" it is that we don't own half the world any more?


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## ericjarvis (Mar 30, 2011)

The basic problem here is that we learn by what we see and not by what we are told. However we are governed on the basis that we will learn by what we are told and not by what we see.

Now get inside the head of a kid growing up in Brixton (or any number of other places). More often than not any parenting they get is from somebody who is overworked and stressed out, or from somebody who has no money and is stressed out, often both. So what they learn is from school, from the media, and from their peers.

At school, regardless of how good their teachers are, they are basically stuffed into an examination result machine and told that if they do well they may get a job. So they look at what getting a job means, and around them they see sweeping the street, serving behind the counter in MacDeadthings, getting up at 5 in the morning to clean up after a bunch of messy twats in some office or somesuch, all for damn all money and on short term contracts. Understandably many don't see any future through the education system.

From the media they get a clear impression that the right way to behave is to demand respect, treat any wrongdoing with physical violence, and to deal with feeling wronged in any way by seeking revenge. They see the people who should be setting an example engaged in fraud, nepotism, warmongering, and treating any sign of concern for others as a shameful weakness. No matter what anyone tells them they should be doing it's what they see that counts as the example to follow. Meanwhile they are bombarded by the message that their worth is to be judged primarily on their possessions, and that if they don't have much money they are worthless. They also pick up the clear message that to be young (and especially to be young and black) is to be seen by society at large as a threat. If they are "lucky" enough to come from a family where there is some attempt at bringing them up within a religion, the chances are it will be a simplified fundamentalist version that is big on smiting the ungodly and not too strong when it comes to forgiveness. For many of them there is nothing reaching them at all that could possibly be seen as teaching them to concentrate on doing the right thing themselves.

Which brings us to the peer group. The only people they get to deal with, in the most part, who treat them with any respect. The only people who set rules for them on the basis that EVERYONE obeys the same rules. So their sole source of a personal morality is down to their friends. In many areas that basically means that the ONLY people giving them an example they can follow is a gang based on street robbery and crack dealing. When they adopt a morality in which the key tenets are look out for your own; make money by whatever means necessary; respond to threat, disrespect, and transgressions, with extreme violence; seek sex at any opportunity; then there's nothing to contradict it other than what people who clearly don't give a damn about them say... but don't do.

It's a huge mess, but it's not entirely their mess, and it won't be fixed by treating it as if it is.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2011)

They were too young to remember the Empire, kittyp. It made it all the worse.


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## kittyP (Mar 30, 2011)

This link may be appropriate to the discussion


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## kittyP (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> They were too young to remember the Empire, kittyp. It made it all the worse.


 
Oh they don't need to have been there at the time to be enough of a tit head to still want it


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Doesn't make it right when "young, black, poor, undereducated, wannabe gangsters" get shot either. The difference is no-one much cares about that, indeed, some people seem to think their lives just don't matter at all. Which may have something to do with why things have got like this.



... or it happens so often we've become desensitised to it.


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## goldenecitrone (Mar 30, 2011)

Wonder how much respect he's going to get for shooting a little girl. Who'd want to be in that gang.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> Wonder how much respect he's going to get for shooting a little girl. Who'd want to be in that gang.


 
probably make out the bullet ricocheted and it's therefore not his fault


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## Jackobi (Mar 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I've heard it described by a couple of chortling twats in a pub as 'ethnic cleansing'.


 
It is lazy thinking, instead of trying to understand why 'they' want to murder each other, just let them get on with it, so long as no innocent bystanders are hurt.


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## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2011)

See the politicians are wading in already. Here is Claudia Webbe --Labour party member, Chair of Trident and board director of one of New Labours ALMOs spouting off on C4 website:

http://www.channel4.com/news/girl-aged-5-gunned-down-in-london-shooting

Really irritates me that professional politicians get this airtime.


If Claudia thinks drugs is the problem then how about taking drugs out of crime by decriminalising them or legalising them. But then Claudia is in the Labour party and has made a good career out of this. So wont say that.

See her career here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_Webbe

She also says more resources need to be put into poor communities. Quite so. Her party did bugger all when they were in power.


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## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> At school, regardless of how good their teachers are, they are basically stuffed into an examination result machine and told that if they do well they may get a job. So they look at what getting a job means, and around them they see sweeping the street, serving behind the counter in MacDeadthings, getting up at 5 in the morning to clean up after a bunch of messy twats in some office or somesuch, all for damn all money and on short term contracts. Understandably many don't see any future through the education system.
> 
> From the media they get a clear impression that the right way to behave is to demand respect, treat any wrongdoing with physical violence, and to deal with feeling wronged in any way by seeking revenge. They see the people who should be setting an example engaged in fraud, nepotism, warmongering, and treating any sign of concern for others as a shameful weakness. No matter what anyone tells them they should be doing it's what they see that counts as the example to follow. Meanwhile they are bombarded by the message that their worth is to be judged primarily on their possessions, and that if they don't have much money they are worthless.


 
Good point Eric and backed up by work of Professor Wilkinson on Inequality:

http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2010/jul/prof-richard-wilkinson-inequality-trigger-violence

"Professor Wilkinson explained how quality of life was linked to how equal a country is rather than how rich it is. “More equal societies are more cohesive,” he said. “They have less violence, fewer drug problems and better health. A fairer society can improve the quality of life for all of us. We all know these problems are rooted in relative deprivation and social status. These problems get worse as differences get bigger.”

He added: “One of the main triggers to violence is how you’re looked at, disrespected, loss of face, people’s self-worth."


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## Giles (Mar 30, 2011)

Why should your average working and law-abiding person give a toss about these little wankers shooting and stabbing each other over ridiculous and pathetic motives, though?

People choose this lifestyle of violence, intimidation of others and petty crime.  This is not the desperate crime of the poor person stealing to feed their kids, is it?

Giles..


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## killer b (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> Why should your average working and law-abiding person give a toss about these little wankers shooting and stabbing each other over ridiculous and pathetic motives, though?


 
empathy?


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 30, 2011)

I feel for those caught up in this rotten mess. There's a lot more to the term 'Innocent Victim' than some people care to consider.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> Why should your average working and law-abiding person give a toss about these little wankers shooting and stabbing each other over ridiculous and pathetic motives, though?
> 
> People choose this lifestyle of violence, intimidation of others and petty crime.  This is not the desperate crime of the poor person stealing to feed their kids, is it?
> 
> Giles..


 
Because it is attitudes like yours, so frequently expressed through the mass media, that causes them to decide that they may as well treat everyone else with the same lack of concern, sympathy, or understanding. To them you are simply an ignorant wealthy pillock who knows eff all and who commands even less respect. In that they are simply taking their cue from your attitude, it's just that you see each other as being in different "gangs".

You also miss the point in the last two sentences.

No they don't choose a life of petty crime. They just didn't grow up in a wealthy enough home to get to go to a posh school and then commit large scale fraud in cahoots with their cronies. However they see the example and do what they can, in their limited way, to emulate it. It wouldn't be any better if it was somebody stealing to feed their family. It would still be the same crime.

What I am most concerned about are the victims. I believe they are best served by taking a long hard look at the actual problems, rather than by everyone sitting around posturing and trying to appear as hard on criminals as possible.


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## Giles (Mar 30, 2011)

killer b said:


> empathy?


 
The people I feel empathy for are those who just want a normal life and who get literally caught in the uncaring and unfeeling cross-fire of these assholes living out their wannabe shit gangster lifestyles in our city. 

Giles..


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## killer b (Mar 30, 2011)

it isn't an either/or situation.


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## Giles (Mar 30, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Because it is attitudes like yours, so frequently expressed through the mass media, that causes them to decide that they may as well treat everyone else with the same lack of concern, sympathy, or understanding. To them you are simply an ignorant wealthy pillock who knows eff all and who commands even less respect. In that they are simply taking their cue from your attitude, it's just that you see each other as being in different "gangs".
> 
> You also miss the point in the last two sentences.
> 
> ...


 
They could try getting a job. Like most people do. Your oversimplification of society into posh rich city fraudsters v violent street criminals is just silly.

What about the, oh, 99.whatever % of people who are neither? Who just accept and live an ordinary life? Who don't decide to "get rich or die trying" even if this means shooting small children in shops?

Giles..


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## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> Why should your average working and law-abiding person give a toss about these little wankers shooting and stabbing each other over ridiculous and pathetic motives, though?
> 
> People choose this lifestyle of violence, intimidation of others and petty crime.  This is not the desperate crime of the poor person stealing to feed their kids, is it?
> 
> Giles..



because they're people, because innocent people get hurt and killed, because it's tragic that this happens at all

y'know, basic human stuff like that


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## Stoat Boy (Mar 30, 2011)

Lets all be honest, both the left and the right dont really give a fuck.

These poor black kids come from areas that aint ever going to elect a Conservative so are off the radar and the left are so fucked up with 'identity' politics that nobody is going to really step into the breach and say that 'Urban' culture is as negative as fuck. 

The real answer is education. Real, proper education which focuses on things such as giving poor kids real marketable skills in the work place. The reality is that there is no point in trying to push poorer kids into higher education as things stand because all the jobs in industrys such as the media or finance or even things like medicine are becoming more and more the preserve of the rich.

But give them the chance to get real qualifications in things like plumbers, electricans, carpenters and so on and they might actually have a chance to make something of their lives. 

However its not going to happen because education has just become another political playground in which competing groups of white middle class people wage ideological conflict that has no bearing on how their own kids get educated and prepared for the world of work. 

What Brixton needs is a technical school that takes kids in at the age of 11 and lets them out at 18 with City & Guilds qualfications. Which turns them into engineers. Which gives them a chance to maybe buy their own home, go on a nice foreign holiday once a year and turn them into rather tedious and no doubt Daily Mail reading people. Golfers. That sort of thing. 

This shooting will be next weeks proverbial fish and chip paper because its not really in anybodys interest in our careerist political elites, from all sides of the divide, to actually give a flying fuck beyond sound bites of the usual stale sounding bullshit.


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## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> They could try getting a job. Like most people do. Your oversimplification of society into posh rich city fraudsters v violent street criminals is just silly.
> 
> What about the, oh, 99.whatever % of people who are neither? Who just accept and live an ordinary life? Who don't decide to "get rich or die trying" even if this means shooting small children in shops?
> 
> Giles..



This is what Eric means by looking at the actual problems:

Income Inequality and Violent Crime. See here on this link

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/publications/research-digest-1-violent-crime-web


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## colacubes (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> They could try getting a job. Like most people do. Your oversimplification of society into posh rich city fraudsters v violent street criminals is just silly.
> 
> .


 
As is your oversimplification of getting a job at the moment.


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## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> The people I feel empathy for are those who just want a normal life and who get literally caught in the uncaring and unfeeling cross-fire of these assholes living out their wannabe shit gangster lifestyles in our city.
> 
> Giles..



I feel zero empathy for you right now


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## james87 (Mar 30, 2011)

Definitely... an unequal, unfair and divided society with grotesque inequalities breeds violence. And before our eyes, watch all of the problems and despair in our society at the moment magnify under this government - which lets be clear, couldn't give a shit about what happens in the likes of Stockwell, a million miles away from Chelsea.

It's sad to see with this tragedy people running down the area a bit more... nobody would ever know that a lot of people actually quite like living here! 

I hope everyone is OK and I obviously hope those responsible are caught... but let's not fall into the trap of thinking that "tough on crime" alone will stop this happening again.


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## colacubes (Mar 30, 2011)

james87 said:


> Definitely... an unequal, unfair and divided society with grotesque inequalities breeds violence. And before our eyes, watch all of the problems and despair in our society at the moment magnify under this government - which lets be clear, couldn't give a shit about what happens in the likes of Stockwell, a million miles away from Chelsea.
> 
> It's sad to see with this tragedy people running down the area a bit more... nobody would ever know that a lot of people actually quite like living here!
> 
> I hope everyone is OK and I obviously hope those responsible are caught... but let's not fall into the trap of thinking that "tough on crime" alone will stop this happening again.



Welcome to Urban.  And good point well made


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## ericjarvis (Mar 30, 2011)

james87 said:


> Definitely... an unequal, unfair and divided society with grotesque inequalities breeds violence. And before our eyes, watch all of the problems and despair in our society at the moment magnify under this government - which lets be clear, couldn't give a shit about what happens in the likes of Stockwell, a million miles away from Chelsea.
> 
> It's sad to see with this tragedy people running down the area a bit more... nobody would ever know that a lot of people actually quite like living here!
> 
> I hope everyone is OK and I obviously hope those responsible are caught... but let's not fall into the trap of thinking that "tough on crime" alone will stop this happening again.



"Tough on crime" simply makes it more likely to happen again. It's no use criticising these kids for trying to live by an over simplified, vengeful, and violent moral code, by preaching an equally over simplified, vengeful, and violent moral code. That just makes it their gang versus our gang.


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## james87 (Mar 30, 2011)

nipsla said:


> Welcome to Urban.  And good point well made


 
Cheers. Been lurking for a while but couldn't keep quiet... didn't help enduring everyone at work talking about what a "shithole" and a "ghetto" Stockwell is... I only just started so I didn't really wanna start an argument with them


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## Summerbaby (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles' comments just goes to show that an expensive education and a name like 'tarquin' or 'Giles' for that matter does not an educated man make. Giles your attitude perfectly exposes everything that is wrong with this country. I have no idea why you would come to an urban forum firstly...you very obviously have no understanding of urban issues. Someone who thinks the way you do probably only lives in kilburn because despite your public school education and lack of melanin you are still unable to afford a property far enough away from the brown people of this world. 

Well done Eric for articulately describing in great detail the root causes that lead to this type of scenario and to Mrs Magpie for speaking the uncomfortable truth. Unfortunately, attitudes like Giles' are everywhere, especially in the so called upper echelons of society or ruling classes which base their dealings with ethnic minorities on 'the bell curve' and other white supremacist pieces of literature.

Money can not buy class and public school educations can't buy emotional intelligence or wisdom. Giles, I suggest you move to a country which hasn't colonised the majority of the melanined people populated countries of the world and is therefore not dealing with the consequences of doing so.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 30, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> What Brixton needs is a technical school that takes kids in at the age of 11 and lets them out at 18 with City & Guilds qualfications. Which turns them into engineers.


 
Which causes the bottom to drop out of that market leaving them with non transferable skill set and a bad attitude about the system that didn't give them the chance to shine academically?

[/whitemiddleclassteacher]


----------



## james87 (Mar 30, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Which causes the bottom to drop out of that market leaving them with non transferable skill set and a bad attitude about the system that didn't give them the chance to shine academically?
> 
> [/whitemiddleclassteacher]



There should be academic and technical routes... but there shouldn't be a big divide between the two. Finland has a comprehensive system but there are academic/vocational schools, however they're on an equal standing...  So Finland is almost entirely state comprehensives and leads the world in education rankings, but this country cherry picks this "free schools" bollocks, part-privatises education and promotes religious schools :/


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## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2011)

james87 said:


> Definitely... an unequal, unfair and divided society with grotesque inequalities breeds violence. And before our eyes, watch all of the problems and despair in our society at the moment magnify under this government - which lets be clear, couldn't give a shit about what happens in the likes of Stockwell, a million miles away from Chelsea.
> 
> It's sad to see with this tragedy people running down the area a bit more... nobody would ever know that a lot of people actually quite like living here!
> 
> I hope everyone is OK and I obviously hope those responsible are caught... but let's not fall into the trap of thinking that "tough on crime" alone will stop this happening again.



Hi James. Yes it would be a pity if this leads to people running the area down. There is a good mix of people and cultures there. 

When the World Cup was on I noticed different flags from around the world on the flats.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 30, 2011)

james87 said:


> Cheers. Been lurking for a while but couldn't keep quiet... didn't help enduring everyone at work talking about what a "shithole" and a "ghetto" Stockwell is... I only just started so I didn't really wanna start an argument with them


 
Just refer to it as St Ockwell, a relatively unknown village just south of the Thames.

Personally I prefer living round here to any of the soulless mind numbingly boring suburbs further out. For a real shithole you need somewhere like Suburbiton. At least round here the police make some attempt to catch criminals, they don't simply write off thuggery as being "youthful high spirits".


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Just refer to it as St Ockwell, a relatively unknown village just south of the Thames.


 it's become quite famous since a young brazilian was shot there some years ago.

you south londoners make me laugh, with your ludicrous attempts to disguise where you live (st ockwell, st reatham)


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## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Giles' comments just goes to show that an expensive education and a name like 'tarquin' or 'Giles' for that matter does not an educated man make. Giles your attitude perfectly exposes everything that is wrong with this country. I have no idea why you would come to an urban forum firstly...you very obviously have no understanding of urban issues. Someone who thinks the way you do probably only lives in kilburn because despite your public school education and lack of melanin you are still unable to afford a property far enough away from the brown people of this world.
> 
> Well done Eric for articulately describing in great detail the root causes that lead to this type of scenario and to Mrs Magpie for speaking the uncomfortable truth. Unfortunately, attitudes like Giles' are everywhere, especially in the so called upper echelons of society or ruling classes which base their dealings with ethnic minorities on 'the bell curve' and other white supremacist pieces of literature.
> 
> Money can not buy class and public school educations can't buy emotional intelligence or wisdom. Giles, I suggest you move to a country which hasn't colonised the majority of the melanined people populated countries of the world and is therefore not dealing with the consequences of doing so.




Bell Curve theory is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

Somewhat unfair on Giles. I dont agree with him but he has not mentioned race. Gang culture is also found in mainly white areas of the country as well. And has a long historical pedigree ( Glasgow knife gangs for example). Its the use of guns more recently thats made it worse.

Gang culture is socio economic and not dependant on race

Nor has Giles said anything about his education.

Also some of Giles attitudes arent that unusual. My local newsagent didnt see any excuse for using a gun in this way and he is Indian.


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## james87 (Mar 30, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Just refer to it as St Ockwell, a relatively unknown village just south of the Thames.



It's bizarre how obsessed/paranoid people in London are about location, people will live in Vauxhall or Clapham but rule out a two minute walk into Stockwell... unless a dickhead estate agent fools them into thinking it's "Clapham Border" or something! I don't care though, makes my rent cheaper


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2011)

Giles said:


> They could try getting a job. Like most people do.


 misery loves company


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2011)

james87 said:


> It's bizarre how obsessed/paranoid people in London are about location, people will live in Vauxhall or Clapham but rule out a two minute walk into Stockwell... unless a dickhead estate agent fools them into thinking it's "Clapham Border" or something! I don't care though, makes my rent cheaper


 
it's not bizarre - quite understandable, really, having visited stockwell (and streatham). but very amusing nonetheless


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## james87 (Mar 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not bizarre - quite understandable, really, having visited stockwell (and streatham). but very amusing nonetheless



I've never been able to see what's so great about Clapham... expensive, crap transport and pretentious. Vauxhall is alright but other than being more central, I don't really see how it's a much better area than Stockwell... but I guess cos it's central, like elephant the developers are just planning on building something gentrified and upmarket, and to hell with everyone who can't live in a £400k apartment.


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## Summerbaby (Mar 30, 2011)

QUOTE=Gramsci;11641561]Bell Curve theory is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

Somewhat unfair on Giles. I dont agree with him but he has not mentioned race. Gang culture is also found in mainly white areas of the country as well. And has a long historical pedigree ( Glasgow knife gangs for example). Its the use of guns more recently thats made it worse.

Gang culture is socio economic and not dependant on race

Nor has Giles said anything about his education.

Also some of Giles attitudes arent that unusual. My local newsagent didnt see any excuse for using a gun in this way and he is Indian.[/QUOTE]

I accept that Giles didn't MENTION race and I also accept that I have made an assumption about his background based on his stance but surely someone who is discerning would accept that some keyboard warriors don't have the guts to mention race. The geo-political agenda doesn't mention race, the socio-political agenda doesn't mention class but this does this mean that the agenda is not class or race based??

I am by no means calling Giles racist, I am merely calling him simplistic in his view towards this situaton and pointing out that he doesn't have the faintest idea of the root causes which culminate in awful incidents like yesterday.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 30, 2011)

james87 said:


> which lets be clear, couldn't give a shit about what happens in *the likes of Stockwell, a million miles away from Chelsea.*



Well, closer to four miles really.


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## ash (Mar 31, 2011)

As this 'incident' was within yards of my childs school I am not too concerned about the sociology behind the shooting. 
Walking to school today I overheard 5 year olds saying 'who was shot'?    My daughter told me that a child was shot dead and asked if  it was a shot gun or pistol and she is 6 for fucks sake.   
I have no regard for the individuals that perpetrated this attempted murder.  I also find it very offensive  to people who are disavantaged financially or emotionally that people are excusing the idiots using socio-economic factors as an excuse!!


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## Brixton Hatter (Mar 31, 2011)

Giles said:


> Why should your average working and law-abiding person give a toss about these little wankers shooting and stabbing each other over ridiculous and pathetic motives, though?


Because it could have been any of us here who in live in the area who happened to be in that shop when the shooting happened.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 31, 2011)

james87 said:


> There should be academic and technical routes... but there shouldn't be a big divide between the two. Finland has a comprehensive system but there are academic/vocational schools, however they're on an equal standing...  So Finland is almost entirely state comprehensives and leads the world in education rankings, but this country cherry picks this "free schools" bollocks, part-privatises education and promotes religious schools :/


 
this is an slightly separate point though  i think personal social views on education are what needs to change  more than education itself.

there is good vocational training out there  it's peaoples desire to go into  a particular area  that needs top be stimulated and thats difficult  

for a start    it's ridiculous to think that most 16 year old actually really know what route in life they want to take. sure   some will but a lot won't.  hell i only really  decided on teaching a few years back after  getting into it... and i still have second thoughts.     your not allowed to vote  or drink  but you have to decide what route you want to take in life... nuts

and   because of this  it's often not the individual  that makes  the choice  it's  that individuals social group   the pearents  and the peers

untill  sociaty changes  how it thinks about education     education will have a tough time trying to change sociaty


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## silverfish (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Giles' comments just goes to show that an expensive education and a name like 'tarquin' or 'Giles' for that matter does not an educated man make. Giles your attitude perfectly exposes everything that is wrong with this country. I have no idea why you would come to an urban forum firstly...you very obviously have no understanding of urban issues. Someone who thinks the way you do probably only lives in kilburn because despite your public school education and lack of melanin you are still unable to afford a property far enough away from the brown people of this world.
> 
> Well done Eric for articulately describing in great detail the root causes that lead to this type of scenario and to Mrs Magpie for speaking the uncomfortable truth. Unfortunately, attitudes like Giles' are everywhere, especially in the so called upper echelons of society or ruling classes which base their dealings with ethnic minorities on 'the bell curve' and other white supremacist pieces of literature.
> 
> Money can not buy class and public school educations can't buy emotional intelligence or wisdom. Giles, I suggest you move to a country which hasn't colonised the majority of the melanined people populated countries of the world and is therefore not dealing with the consequences of doing so.



Either you know the poster Giles or you are just banging out your own unimaginative class enemy stereotype bullshit

Lets be clear about this. teenage boys have shot dead, a young girl and a bloke. 

You can ring your fucking hands as much as you like, but not everyone in the community is banging round on mountain bikes shooting people. The vast majority of the communities, as pointed out on the thread are great, balanced, multicultural, law abiding and getting on with life what ever their socio-economic/ethnic status even though they have had the same environmental exposure as the murderers you are excusing


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## Jackobi (Mar 31, 2011)

ash said:


> As this 'incident' was within yards of my childs school I am not too concerned about the sociology behind the shooting.
> Walking to school today I overheard 5 year olds saying 'who was shot'?    My daughter told me that a child was shot dead and asked if  it was a shot gun or pistol and she is 6 for fucks sake.



That is horrific, and disturbing that the perpetrators are probably schoolchildren themselves.


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## Jackobi (Mar 31, 2011)

silverfish said:


> Lets be clear about this. teenage boys have shot dead, a young girl and a bloke.



Both were shot, the girl is critical, the man is stable.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it's become quite famous since a young brazilian was shot there some years ago.
> 
> you south londoners make me laugh, with your ludicrous attempts to disguise where you live (st ockwell, st reatham)



That's a pisstake.  It makes the yuppie newcomers feel like they're moving somewhere posh


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2011)

Jackobi said:


> Both were shot, the girl is critical, the man is stable.


 
I heard he was critical?

(Maybe he's critically stable)


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 31, 2011)

silverfish said:


> You can ring your fucking hands as much as you like, but not everyone in the community is banging round on mountain bikes shooting people. The vast majority of the communities, as pointed out on the thread are great, balanced, multicultural, law abiding and getting on with life what ever their socio-economic/ethnic status even though they have had the same environmental exposure as the murderers you are excusing


 
most people are fairly good..  but i wonder what percentage are close to the edge...

what percentage  feel presure and feel like they need to punch some one,  what percentage feel afraid, what percentage feel like their only option for survival is a knife in the pocket   what percentage   just go that one step further

hell i am   one of the most placed people  you can get... but even i  when i was a teenager   felt that if someone had put a knife in my hands i might have done something i regretted...


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## Jackobi (Mar 31, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I heard he was critical?
> 
> (Maybe he's critically stable)


 
Perhaps he is one or the other, the headlines are focusing on her critical condition, so I'm not sure.


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

silverfish said:


> Either you know the poster Giles or you are just banging out your own unimaginative class enemy stereotype bullshit
> 
> Lets be clear about this. teenage boys have shot dead, a young girl and a bloke.
> 
> You can ring your fucking hands as much as you like, but not everyone in the community is banging round on mountain bikes shooting people. The vast majority of the communities, as pointed out on the thread are great, balanced, multicultural, law abiding and getting on with life what ever their socio-economic/ethnic status even though they have had the same environmental exposure as the murderers you are excusing



Are you a politician or a sensationalist murdoch-esque journalist??? If the answer is neither then you may have found your calling! 

Pathetic attempt to divert the attention from the points we are discussing...Let's be clear aboit this no-one is dead yet! To say that I am excusing the 'murderers' is ridiculous. Maybe in youir little world you find it difficult to accept the issues that have been addressed here but I have lived them, as have many of my peers and we are law abiding citizens who get on with our lives but that doesn't mean that we close our eyes to what goes on in our communities and furthermore our WORLD! But don't you worry your pretty little head about it.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 31, 2011)

the same kid  who gives you a wave in the streat  and chats to you about how the local team is doing is the same kid  who decides that if some one is trying to kick his head in he needs to get a weapon

yes this is an extreame example  but these are still  products of the same system.  

these kids  probably didn't pop out the womb  holding a gat ganster style  something somewhere  made them think that was the right thing to do


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## Plumdaff (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it's become quite famous since a young brazilian was shot there some years ago.
> 
> you south londoners make me laugh, with your ludicrous attempts to disguise where you live (st ockwell, st reatham)


 
I call it St.Ockwell as a pisstake (well, according to estate agents I live in North Cla'am actually) and I'm bloody proud of the place. There's a true community, I know loads of my immediate and not so immediate neighbours and the local shopkeepers, diversity, lovely little hidden pubs and restaurants, Portuguese cafe culture, it's very central - let the snobs stay away, that suits me fine


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## silverfish (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Are you a politician or a sensationalist murdoch-esque journalist??? If the answer is neither then you may have found your calling!
> 
> Pathetic attempt to divert the attention from the points we are discussing...Let's be clear aboit this no-one is dead yet! To say that I am excusing the 'murderers' is ridiculous. Maybe in youir little world you find it difficult to accept the issues that have been addressed here but I have lived them, as have many of my peers and we are law abiding citizens who get on with our lives but that doesn't mean that we close our eyes to what goes on in our communities and furthermore our WORLD! But don't you worry your pretty little head about it.



If no one is dead yet thats alright then?

The rest of your post said nothing really apart from confirm you live somewhere in a city


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## Gixxer1000 (Mar 31, 2011)

Echos of the Rhys Jones murder. Lets hope that the local community expel the perpetrators in the same way that they did in Everton.


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## EastEnder (Mar 31, 2011)

james87 said:


> It's bizarre how obsessed/paranoid people in London are about location, people will live in Vauxhall or Clapham but rule out a two minute walk into Stockwell... unless a dickhead estate agent fools them into thinking it's "Clapham Border" or something! I don't care though, makes my rent cheaper


I've lived in the centre of Stockwell (which isn't, as many think, by the tube stop, it's actually half way between there and Brixton) for nearly 6 years. It's no worse than most other inner London areas, and a lot better than some I've lived in. If you walk 2 minutes off the main road into the back streets it's all posh Victorian houses and the like. There's the usual problems you get in most inner London areas, but I've never had any real cause for concern.


----------



## Giles (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Giles' comments just goes to show that an expensive education and a name like 'tarquin' or 'Giles' for that matter does not an educated man make. Giles your attitude perfectly exposes everything that is wrong with this country. I have no idea why you would come to an urban forum firstly...you very obviously have no understanding of urban issues. Someone who thinks the way you do probably only lives in kilburn because despite your public school education and lack of melanin you are still unable to afford a property far enough away from the brown people of this world.
> 
> Well done Eric for articulately describing in great detail the root causes that lead to this type of scenario and to Mrs Magpie for speaking the uncomfortable truth. Unfortunately, attitudes like Giles' are everywhere, especially in the so called upper echelons of society or ruling classes which base their dealings with ethnic minorities on 'the bell curve' and other white supremacist pieces of literature.
> 
> Money can not buy class and public school educations can't buy emotional intelligence or wisdom. Giles, I suggest you move to a country which hasn't colonised the majority of the melanined people populated countries of the world and is therefore not dealing with the consequences of doing so.


 
Firstly, for the record, I did not go to any kind of fee-paying school, but rather to a "bog standard comprehensive".

Secondly, what is with all this "bell curve" "white supremacist" stuff? I did not mention either......

Finally, what do you mean by Britain "dealing with the consequences" of colonialism? Like having lots of different races in our country, you mean? Bound to cause problems, that....

Giles..


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

Fuck off Giles


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 31, 2011)

EastEnder said:


> I've lived in the centre of Stockwell (which isn't, as many think, by the tube stop, it's actually half way between there and Brixton) for nearly 6 years. It's no worse than most other inner London areas, and a lot better than some I've lived in. If you walk 2 minutes off the main road into the back streets it's all posh Victorian houses and the like. There's the usual problems you get in most inner London areas, but I've never had any real cause for concern.


 
Im sure it is but sadly I am a little put off because it is the only place I have been punched, stabbed (only a little bit though) and robbed in the street. I was also beaten half to death on the clapham end of acre lane if that evens anything out.  

Any more news on the victims?


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

You use terminology like..."Lets be clear about this" and proceed to embellish the truth in order to add weight to your argument. If you cared about the community and the issues that affect it, you would have cared enough to find out whether the victims were dead or alive but just like the sensationalist media you spout truth combined with lies, point fingers and shoot anyone down who trys to look at the bigger picture.



silverfish said:


> Lets be clear about this. teenage boys have shot dead, a young girl and a bloke.


----------



## girasol (Mar 31, 2011)

Giles said:


> Why should your average working and law-abiding person give a toss about these little wankers shooting and stabbing each other over ridiculous and pathetic motives, though?
> 
> People choose this lifestyle of violence, intimidation of others and petty crime.  This is not the desperate crime of the poor person stealing to feed their kids, is it?
> 
> Giles..


 
Because we live in a community, well, we should anyway.  Everyone is affected, our quality of life and freedoms suffer because of it.

Maybe the problem is that people act like they don't belong to a community and act like they're not connected to it or involve themselves.  They just wash their hands of it and view other people they don't understand as not valid.

Poverty, neglect and violence affects everyone, duh!  Look at what just happened in Stockwell!


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## Stoat Boy (Mar 31, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Which causes the bottom to drop out of that market leaving them with non transferable skill set and a bad attitude about the system that didn't give them the chance to shine academically?
> 
> [/whitemiddleclassteacher]


 
LOL.

Do you have any idea about the shortgage of qualified trades people in this country ? 

What you seem to fail to understand is that shining academically makes no difference now. Almost all of the 'proffessions' are limited to upper-middle class kids now due to this whole nonsense of 'internships'. Thats the reality of a Britain after 12 years of a Labour Government and a Tory Government who show no inclination to do anything to make it any different.

There is no shortgage of graduates. In fact there are so many that they are willing to work for nothing for a period of years just to get themselves a foot on what ever career ladder they want to get on. No self-respecting working class kid is either capable or willing to do that and good on them. 

You want to give people from a working class background a serious leg up in the current and future UK jobs market then you give them a good quality trade skill. 

I admit to a bias having recently started a new venture in the re-training business but given that I can, for less than the cost of a single year at university, give somebody the ability to legimately call themself a fully qualified plumber or an Electrician (with both discplines including the new and much sort after renewable energy installer quals) along with the experience and back-up to go into a jobs market that has a genuine need for them then I struggle to find out why Government cannot see the logic of stepping into the market place and give kids from places like Brixton and Peckham a real hand as opposed to bullshit music and sports projects. 

For working class people getting a trade has been the historic route up the social mobility pole and I see nothing to indicate that has changed. In fact compared to the 50's for the more academically gifted working class kid a trade offers a far better route than university.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 31, 2011)

The problem isn't how to get them 'up the social mobility pole'. The problem is that there is a social mobility pole.


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

Giles said:


> Firstly, for the record, I did not go to any kind of fee-paying school, but rather to a "bog standard comprehensive".
> 
> Secondly, what is with all this "bell curve" "white supremacist" stuff? I did not mention either......
> 
> ...


 
I never said that you mentioned any Bell curve, white supremacist stuff, I said that the ruling classes base their dealings with ethnic minorities on "The Bell Curve" which is a white supremacist piece of literature and attitudes like yours derive from a society that treats non-white people like that. And having different races in "our country"  wouldn't cause problems if this wasnt the case but sadly it is and we will be dealing with the consequences until there is real and positive change in our society, the same way we will soon be dealing with similar class related issues.

Quite frankly, I have no interest in whether your education was paid for by your parents or our taxes, there are many people who think like you who went to comprehensive schools. Your view fails to address the root causes. Who owns the media companies which bank-roll gangster rappers and only ensure success for Black people who talk about killing each other and treat women as sex objects? Who commissions the programmes that fail to represent ethnic minorities in a positive way?  Who makes real and deliberate attempts to silence anyone who speaks the truth about these issues? NOT BLACK PEOPLE, thats for sure. 

I suggest you and Silverfish, get together in a pub somewhere and work out how you can lock up all the problematic people of this world so you can live in a harmonious society where no wrong is ever done because all the _baaaad people_ are banged up.


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## girasol (Mar 31, 2011)

Let's not forget that this has a potential to escalate, local kids are already talking about revenge because of the shootings...  So within the local community there's a hunt already taking place.  Other kids are planning on shooting the teenagers who shot the little girl and a man.  

Just checked the South London press, and there's talk of the 'Tamil Tigers' being on the hunt for them.


----------



## Kanda (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Quite frankly, I have no interest in whether your education was paid for by your parents or our taxes, there are many people who think like you who went to comprehensive schools.


 
Why the fuck did you bring it up then??


----------



## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

girasol said:


> Let's not forget that this has a potential to escalate, local kids are already talking about revenge because of the shootings...  So within the local community there's a hunt already taking place.  Other kids are planning on shooting the teenagers who shot the little girl and a man.


 
Sad and true, but as long as the crimes we hear about are perpetrated by young black males its non white people that get caught up in the crossfire, Its all "collateral damage old chap" in the eyes of Giles and the like.


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## ajdown (Mar 31, 2011)

girasol said:


> Because we live in a community, well, we should anyway.  Everyone is affected, our quality of life and freedoms suffer because of it.
> 
> Maybe the problem is that people act like they don't belong to a community and act like they're not connected to it or involve themselves.  They just wash their hands of it and view other people they don't understand as not valid.


 
It's not a case of "not wanting to get involved" - for many people (as I would be, if it had happened near me) it's fear of retaliation.  Once you start to speak out publicly against something that is wrong, you often become a target of it and those responsible.

I have no real desire to end up getting shot or stabbed - as much as some round here might like that thought.


----------



## silverfish (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> You use terminology like..."Lets be clear about this" and proceed to embellish the truth in order to add weight to your argument. If you cared about the community and the issues that affect it, you would have cared enough to find out whether the victims were dead or alive but just like the sensationalist media you spout truth combined with lies, point fingers and shoot anyone down who trys to look at the bigger picture.



"lets be clear about this, teenage boys have shot ----a young girl and a bloke" Happy now

You seem to think that if no one has died it some how changes the nature of the incident, reduces its severity/impact somehow

You seem to think that opinion is not valid unless it has been saturated with emotion, which can only come from postcode proximity to the event and "tenuous" direct personal involvement

Why don't you just shout "You weren't there, You wouldn't understand man" it would add clarity to your argument


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## silverfish (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Sad and true, but as long as the crimes we hear about are perpetrated by young black males its non white people that get caught up in the crossfire, Its all "collateral damage old chap" in the eyes of Giles and the like.



You are staggering towards parody


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> LOL.
> 
> Do you have any idea about the shortgage of qualified trades people in this country ?
> 
> ...


 
Stop talking sense


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

silverfish said:


> "lets be clear about this, teenage boys have shot ----a young girl and a bloke" Happy now
> 
> You seem to think that if no one has died it some how changes the nature of the incident, reduces its severity/impact somehow
> 
> ...


 
You know nothing, neither do I live anywhere near Stockwell or do I have any tenuous personal involvement. I merely have a brain and a heart and I use them in conjunction with one another. My emotions relating to this incident are universal_ human _emotions; anger, disgust, sadness and contempt. I will cease to converse with you. A wise man once said, 'don't argue with idiots, they will bring you down to their level and beat you at their own game' 

And as for the parody comment, a sense of humour is often required to deal with people as ignorant as you.


----------



## gabi (Mar 31, 2011)

here's the little one..







whoever shot her is gonna have a delightful time of it when he's banged up...


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Sad and true, but as long as the crimes we hear about are perpetrated by young black males its non white people that get caught up in the crossfire, Its all "collateral damage old chap" in the eyes of Giles and the like.


 
I may have missed something that Giles has said but he seemed to be pretty incensed that two people had been pointlessly caught up in cross fire. He and everyone else is, I think, aware that the victims were not white. On the face of it your comment seems a little unfair.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 31, 2011)

nah, fuck him, he's proffesed eugeniscist ideals in the past and all that 'these people' stuff is dogwhistle.


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## Badgers (Mar 31, 2011)

girasol said:


> Let's not forget that this has a potential to escalate, local kids are already talking about revenge because of the shootings...  So within the local community there's a hunt already taking place.  Other kids are planning on shooting the teenagers who shot the little girl and a man.
> 
> Just checked the South London press, and there's talk of the 'Tamil Tigers' being on the hunt for them.



Nasty shit


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## nick h. (Mar 31, 2011)

Can we have a bit of a reality check here? 

Firstly, for a lot of kids in gangs the damage is done years before qualifications and the jobs market become relevant. They start out in a single parent family. Then the parent becomes an addict or goes to prison, and the child is effectively bringing himself up. His only family is other kids in similar situations. What kind of values does a child acquire when life is like that from the age of, say, 6?  Shooting at people from your mountain bike seems pretty logical. It's Lord of the Flies meets The Wire. But in Stockwell. Some of these kids are spotted by social services and fostered. But a lot aren't. The 'lucky' ones spend their teenage years sharing a hostel with street sleepers and addicts. 

Secondly, it's incredibly rare for these kids to shoot the rest of us by accident. When was the last case? The only one I can recall is a Polish woman who was sprayed by machine gun fire in New Cross several years ago.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 31, 2011)

Poor, poor child. Poor adult who was shot - and all their families.

EricJarvis: Actually, I think people learn most from what they _feel_, not from what they see, and in my experience, from contact with young people involved in gang crime and other anti-social behaviour, I would say that it isn't in general the children of the working-stressed who grow up in this way. Those children understand what it is to value your life enough to work hard for it, even if it still results in poverty. It isn't poverty alone, either.

It is the children from families who have never allowed them to feel that their lives, their pain, their future is worth a shit. The children who wake to find Mum is still out (Dad was maybe never there, or only to be violent) and there is no breakfast in the fridge and they must make it to school alone. Again. The children whose parents knock them about, don't care if they are distressed, treat them as if they never wanted them.

Children who see parents working hard to support them KNOW that that is because their lives are valued and worked for.

There was an article in one of the colour supplements last weekend in which a convicted muderer (bottled someone who 'looked' at him) was asked if he felt any guilt or remorse. No, he didn't. His response was why should he? No-one had ever shown any remorse for anything done to him.

I agree about the need for peer 'respect', but think the problems start at a level more serious than stress and low income.

And still plenty of young people manage to grow and develop despite horrifically damaging upbringings - not fair of any of us to assume a self-fulfilling prophesy and project a prejudiced view onto any of our young people. (not saying you have done that - a general point)


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## OpalFruit (Mar 31, 2011)

Cross-posted with nick.h. With whom I agree.


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Secondly, it's incredibly rare for these kids to shoot the rest of us by accident. When was the last case? The only one I can recall is a Polish woman who was sprayed by machine gun fire in New Cross several years ago.


 
There was the young footballer kid on his way home last year - shot by another kid on a bike aiming at someone else. The young girl in a queue going to a club shot by boys passing in a car NYE before last. Sorry - I forget both their names. Rhys? Alisha?


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## nick h. (Mar 31, 2011)

Hmm. Perhaps I should have specified 'killed'.   The Polish woman was killed. I hope these others weren't?


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Hmm. Perhaps I should have specified 'killed'.   The Polish woman was killed. I hope these others weren't?


Both killed, sadly.


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Can we have a bit of a reality check here?
> 
> Firstly, for a lot of kids in gangs the damage is done years before qualifications and the jobs market become relevant. They start out in a single parent family. Then the parent becomes an addict or goes to prison, and the child is effectively bringing himself up. His only family is other kids in similar situations. What kind of values does a child acquire when life is like that from the age of, say, 6?  Shooting at people from your mountain bike seems pretty logical. It's Lord of the Flies meets The Wire. But in Stockwell. Some of these kids are spotted by social services and fostered. But a lot aren't. The 'lucky' ones spend their teenage years sharing a hostel with street sleepers and addicts.
> 
> Secondly, it's incredibly rare for these kids to shoot the rest of us by accident. When was the last case? The only one I can recall is a Polish woman who was sprayed by machine gun fire in New Cross several years ago.


 
Agreed


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## silverfish (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> You know nothing, neither do I live anywhere near Stockwell or do I have any tenuous personal involvement. I merely have a brain and a heart and I use them in conjunction with one another. My emotions relating to this incident are universal_ human _emotions; anger, disgust, sadness and contempt. I will cease to converse with you. A wise man once said, 'don't argue with idiots, they will bring you down to their level and beat you at their own game'
> 
> And as for the parody comment, a sense of humour is often required to deal with people as ignorant as you.


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> nah, fuck him, he's proffesed eugeniscist ideals in the past and all that 'these people' stuff is dogwhistle.



And we can smell them a mile off!


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## Ms T (Mar 31, 2011)

Rushy said:


> There was the young footballer kid on his way home last year - shot by another kid on a bike aiming at someone else. The young girl in a queue going to a club shot by boys passing in a car NYE before last. Sorry - I forget both their names. Rhys? Alisha?


 
And Mrs M's neighbour was shot dead in cross-fire, as she says upthread.


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## Giles (Mar 31, 2011)

And let's not forget this poor girl shot dead while waiting for a take-away by some maniac shooting randomly through the window:

16 year old shot in food take-away

Giles..


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

silverfish said:


>



My guess is that you are an army boy or some other type of institutionalised twat who has had the emotion and empathy trained right out of him.


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## ILOVELAMP (Mar 31, 2011)

A very troubling incident indeed.

I have joined this forum as I have read a lot of very well thought out and measured contributions to this topic and the root causes of crimes like these. If only our mainstream media would ask the questions and look at the things that some of the posters here have.

Whilst I do think that the perpetrators of this crime need to be removed from the streets at the moment in order to protect more innocents (I refuse to sympathise with people who commit such an act, whatever the age), it is important that we, as a society, look at the causes of these crimes and the contributing factors to gang mentality, which many posters have done here succinctly. Without addressing such causes, things can only get worse.


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

silverfish said:


>



My guess is that you are an army boy or some other type of institutionalised fool who has had emotion and empathy, trained, buggered or beaten out of them.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 31, 2011)

ILoveLamp - that's right - understanding the cause doesn't mean sympathy for the result.
Except in the Daily Mail, perhaps.


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## ILOVELAMP (Mar 31, 2011)

@opalfruit

Are you insinuating that I am a mail reader or did I misunderstand your post?


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

Some fucking ridiculous liberal hand-wringing on this thread.


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## Summerbaby (Mar 31, 2011)

Some terribly fascist ideologies too.


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## ILOVELAMP (Mar 31, 2011)

Summerbaby said:


> Some terribly fascist ideologies too.


 
what, like the murdering of the innocent?


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 31, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Hmm. Perhaps I should have specified 'killed'.   The Polish woman was killed. I hope these others weren't?


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/25/agnes-sina-inakoju-gun-crime

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/shop-shooting-victim-was-innocent-bystander-887364.html

These are a couple that stuck in my mind 

Both black teenagers, and the earliest news reports weren't always clear - but both were innocent bystanders, nothing to do with gangs, just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 31, 2011)

Not that it should be any less shocking when its teenage gang members killing other teenage gang members - it's still children killing children.


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

OpalFruit said:


> Poor, poor child. Poor adult who was shot - and all their families.
> 
> EricJarvis: Actually, I think people learn most from what they _feel_, not from what they see, and in my experience, from contact with young people involved in gang crime and other anti-social behaviour, I would say that it isn't in general the children of the working-stressed who grow up in this way. Those children understand what it is to value your life enough to work hard for it, even if it still results in poverty. It isn't poverty alone, either.
> 
> ...


 
Also agreed.


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Some fucking ridiculous liberal hand-wringing on this thread.


 
Don't use words you don't understand.


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## ajdown (Mar 31, 2011)

A £50,000 reward has been put up now.

Apparently one of the 'targets' has contacted the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12923615


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Don't use words you don't understand.


 
0/10


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## agricola (Mar 31, 2011)

Whilst its true that some of the youths involved in this type of thing do come from what might be termed broken or dysfunctional homes, it should be born in mind that a good number of them do not - IMHO I would put it more down to peer pressure, a percieved (in some cases quite reasonable) need to defend oneself or ones friends from attack, the allure of a superficially attractive and easy lifestyle etc etc.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

ILOVELAMP said:


> A very troubling incident indeed.
> 
> I have joined this forum as I have read a lot of very well thought out and measured contributions to this topic and the root causes of crimes like these. If only our mainstream media would ask the questions and look at the things that some of the posters here have.


 
That's because we live where these things happen, whereas those in charge of the mainstream media don't. A friend of mine used to be a political reporter with the BBC. He used to live in inner city Tottenham. He got sick of his reports being drastically altered by editors who hadn't a clue about how most of us live in order to replace the facts with something more in tune with the nonsense the tabloids spew out. He's now a science journalist, where at least his editors know they haven't a clue about what he's reporting on.

To a newspaper editor this is a story about people in a place he's never going to go, and which he can potentially twist into something that will appeal to his readership by reinforcing the idea that they must be good people because there are some other people who are just simply "born evil". The media have absolutely no interest in anyone finding solutions to these problems. Nor do the majority of politicians. It suits them fine as things are now. They can use it to back up ridiculously simplistic and repressive legislation whilst not having to face the consequences themselves.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

agricola said:


> Whilst its true that some of the youths involved in this type of thing do come from what might be termed broken or dysfunctional homes, it should be born in mind that a good number of them do not - IMHO I would put it more down to peer pressure, a percieved (in some cases quite reasonable) need to defend oneself or ones friends from attack, the allure of a superficially attractive and easy lifestyle etc etc.


 
I know of several instances on this estate of kids who had no intention of getting involved in any sort of crime being targetted by the local gang in an effort to draw them in. To stay out of it takes a great deal of inner strength as well as family support. Especially as there's little else to help. There is no funding locally for activities that involve both young people and older people, all the funding is on the basis that since the youth are the "problem" the money should be spent on activities solely for young people. Which simply ghettoises them more, and means they spend more time with their peer group and less time learning how to behave from adults.

What they need is for the rest of us to stop abdicating our responsibilities and accept that the ONLY way they are going to learn to live a good life is if they have examples to learn from. That means having the chance to take part in activities with adults as peers and not simply in a supervisory role.


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## ILOVELAMP (Mar 31, 2011)

@ericjarvis great post. Very interesting to hear about your journo friend having reports altered by BBC eds.

IMO the BBC are about as impartial as Fox news. They consistently toe the gov't line with few exceptions (Dr. Kelly's suicide being the last one I can think of)


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

Well said eric


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## tommers (Mar 31, 2011)

Ms Ordinary said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/25/agnes-sina-inakoju-gun-crime
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/shop-shooting-victim-was-innocent-bystander-887364.html
> 
> ...



There was also that guy who was shot in West Norwood whilst sitting in his flat.

http://www.southlondonpost.com/2010/09/14/west-norwood-shooting-victim-named/


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## stethoscope (Mar 31, 2011)

Excellent posts Eric.


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> 0/10


 
Yeah, you're losing your touch.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

ash said:


> I have no regard for the individuals that perpetrated this attempted murder.  I also find it very offensive  to people who are disavantaged financially or emotionally that people are excusing the idiots using socio-economic factors as an excuse!!


 
Socio-economic factors are not an excuse. Nobody is saying they are. However they are a causal factor, so to help prevent such things happening again the socio-economic situation has to be changed. That's not any form of excuse for the individuals who did this horrendous thing. It's just a matter of concentrating on how these crimes can be prevented rather than on trying to show how tough we want to be on the perpetrators. It's concentrating on the needs of the victims, and future potential victims, rather than simply reacting emotionally by pouring out bile about the perpetrators.

This is part of the problem. As soon as any of us start looking at any solution other than "hanging them" there are people who try to shout it down by claiming that it is "excusing" the villains, or that it is ignoring the victims. That's one of the reasons things aren't getting any better.

I have no objection to the guilty parties being severely punished. I consider it to be a good thing if they are locked away for the rest of their sorry lives. However I think it's even more important to look at ways of preventing these things happening in the first place.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> the same kid  who gives you a wave in the streat  and chats to you about how the local team is doing is the same kid  who decides that if some one is trying to kick his head in he needs to get a weapon
> 
> yes this is an extreame example  but these are still  products of the same system.
> 
> these kids  probably didn't pop out the womb  holding a gat ganster style  something somewhere  made them think that was the right thing to do


 
From what I can see, and I'm looking from pretty close to ground zero, many of these kids are basically living two completely separate lives. In one they are polite, concerned, and helpful. In the other they are aggressive and violent criminals. It all depends on the company they are in.


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## Ms T (Mar 31, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> That's because we live where these things happen, whereas those in charge of the mainstream media don't. A friend of mine used to be a political reporter with the BBC. He used to live in inner city Tottenham. He got sick of his reports being drastically altered by editors who hadn't a clue about how most of us live in order to replace the facts with something more in tune with the nonsense the tabloids spew out. He's now a science journalist, where at least his editors know they haven't a clue about what he's reporting on.
> 
> To a newspaper editor this is a story about people in a place he's never going to go, and which he can potentially twist into something that will appeal to his readership by reinforcing the idea that they must be good people because there are some other people who are just simply "born evil". The media have absolutely no interest in anyone finding solutions to these problems. Nor do the majority of politicians. It suits them fine as things are now. They can use it to back up ridiculously simplistic and repressive legislation whilst not having to face the consequences themselves.


 
I know quite a few editors at the BBC who do not live in the circumstances you describe.  One lives in Bethnal Green, the other in Brixton/Camberwell.  Actually, there are quite a few in Camberwell.  I think many journalists are well aware of how ordinary people live, because they're pretty ordinarly themselves.  You are merely propagating a stereotype, tbh.


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## Ms T (Mar 31, 2011)

ILOVELAMP said:


> @ericjarvis great post. Very interesting to hear about your journo friend having reports altered by BBC eds.
> 
> IMO the BBC are about as impartial as Fox news. They consistently toe the gov't line with few exceptions (Dr. Kelly's suicide being the last one I can think of)


 
That's never been my experience.


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## ILOVELAMP (Mar 31, 2011)

Ms T said:


> That's never been my experience.


 
come off it! look at their protest coverage ffs! always looping the violent minority. or any war coverage, so pro gov't it hurts!

anyway, we're off topic here


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 31, 2011)

stephj said:


> Excellent posts Eric.


 
Yes to that


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, you're losing your touch.


 
Bollox Blagsta, unfortunately this whole thing is fucking far too close to home for me.  A friend was caught up in this incident and left pretty upset from what they witnessed. I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's  plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Bollox Blagsta, unfortunately this whole thing is fucking far too close to home for me.  A friend was caught up in this incident and left pretty upset from what they witnessed. I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's  plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.


 
If you're so concerned about avoiding "stereotyping and bullshit" etc perhaps you should avoid sticking up silly hit-and-run posts about "liberal hand-wringing"?

There's been some thoughtful stuff posted, mostly by ericjarvis, but others too; respond to it as it deserves.


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

Great posts Eric. Particularly this:



> From what I can see, and I'm looking from pretty close to ground zero, many of these kids are basically living two completely separate lives. In one they are polite, concerned, and helpful. In the other they are aggressive and violent criminals. It all depends on the company they are in.



and this



> What they need is for the rest of us to stop abdicating our responsibilities and accept that the ONLY way they are going to learn to live a good life is if they have examples to learn from. That means having the chance to take part in activities with adults as peers and not simply in a supervisory role.


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Bollox Blagsta, unfortunately this whole thing is fucking far too close to home for me.  A friend was caught up in this incident and left pretty upset from what they witnessed. I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's  plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.


 don't be a cock drew. What exactly Is "liberal" about wanting to understand why these things happen and placing them in a social context. That's pretty much the opposite of liberal tbh

Oh and you don't have a monopoly on experience of tragedy.


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## girasol (Mar 31, 2011)

I guess a lot of these kids learn about agression from adults.  Agression seems to be everywhere I look, including here.  The slightest little things rubs people up the wrong end.  Why is humanity in self-destruct mode?  So full of hatred and intolerance wherever you look?

Is this because we all come to expect so much from life and get so little?  Injustice has always been part of the human condition, but I think people dealt with it more gracefully in the past.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 31, 2011)

ILOVELAMP said:


> @opalfruit
> 
> Are you insinuating that I am a mail reader or did I misunderstand your post?



No, I was agreeing with you!


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 31, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> LOL.
> 
> [snip]



i do know about the situation.  i teach  on an apprenticeship course  one of those supposed new routes into work.   i just don't think  creating courses magically changes peoples lives  and situations on a larger scale

people  will have to really really want to a tradesman before the scheme works

thats one of the reasons why a lot of the time it's music or sports programs. it's because they are the projects  that   people want to get into


yeah  having  good vocational courses  is a good thing  but  it doesn't magic away  people dissatisfation


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## Citizen66 (Mar 31, 2011)

A lot of these kids are on the wrong path waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before offers of apprenticeships come their way.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 31, 2011)

yeah  this is way of tangent really


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## miss minnie (Mar 31, 2011)

I live a few blocks from this incident.  It happened on Tues night, the Thurs before that we had a bunch of kids arrive from the same general direction and a series of skirmishes took place with my neighbours.  On the Fri night a bunch of kids on bikes accompanied by a car arrived and a neighbour was stabbed.  Police attended both incidents.  

This sort of thing is not very common here, it happens only sporadically.  Its not necessarily symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc.

Some years ago I witnessed a bit of 'gang culture' arise on this patch.  There was a very definite leader and when he left the scene the gang subsided straight away.  Quite decent kids if you got to chat with any, away from the 'gang'.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Mar 31, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Socio-economic factors are not an excuse. Nobody is saying they are. However they are a causal factor, so to help prevent such things happening again the socio-economic situation has to be changed. That's not any form of excuse for the individuals who did this horrendous thing. It's just a matter of concentrating on how these crimes can be prevented rather than on trying to show how tough we want to be on the perpetrators. It's concentrating on the needs of the victims, and future potential victims, rather than simply reacting emotionally by pouring out bile about the perpetrators.
> 
> This is part of the problem. As soon as any of us start looking at any solution other than "hanging them" there are people who try to shout it down by claiming that it is "excusing" the villains, or that it is ignoring the victims. That's one of the reasons things aren't getting any better.
> 
> I have no objection to the guilty parties being severely punished. I consider it to be a good thing if they are locked away for the rest of their sorry lives. However I think it's even more important to look at ways of preventing these things happening in the first place.


 Thanks for this post in particular, there are way too many people who equate understanding the causes/origins of an act with excusing it.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> This sort of thing is not very common here, it happens only sporadically.  *Its not necessarily symptomatic of deprivation or anything else*, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc..



This just isn't true; it is highly symptomatic of deprivation and there is a very clear correlation between social status and likelihood to resort to violence. The fact that "loads of other kids around here living the same sort of existence" don't become violent proves nothing. It simply means that low social status is a risk factor (probably the _major_ social risk factor) but that other things are needed to tip any one individual over the edge. It would be impossible to ignore gender for example since men are vastly more likely to react to perceived insult with violence than women are.

To simplify wildly, honour and self-respect become more and more important the further down the social scale you go because they are in shorter and shorter supply, that's what being poor _is_; being systematically dishonoured and socially shamed. It's why you don't meet many middle-class hard men.


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## tommers (Mar 31, 2011)

I don't know, there's a few on here.


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> Thanks for this post in particular, there are way too many people who equate understanding the causes/origins of an act with excusing it.


 
Get ready for the liberal backlash...


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> This just isn't true; it is highly symptomatic of deprivation and there is a very clear correlation between social status and likelihood to resort to violence. The fact that "loads of other kids around here living the same sort of existence" don't become violent proves nothing. It simply means that low social status is a risk factor (probably the _major_ social risk factor) but that other things are needed to tip any one individual over the edge. It would be impossible to ignore gender for example since men are vastly more likely to react to perceived insult with violence than women are.
> 
> To simplify wildly, honour and self-respect become more and more important the further down the social scale you go because they are in shorter and shorter supply, that's what being poor _is_; being systematically dishonoured and socially shamed. It's why you don't meet many middle-class hard men.


 
I don't think I've ever seen so much bollox in my whole life. 

Utterly amazing that you are lecturing minnie about not understanding what happens on her own doorstep. 

You _clearly_ know so much better than anyone who has to deal with these particular kids on a day to day basis.


----------



## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

tommers said:


> I don't know, there's a few on here.





Hmm. "The effect of internet bulletin boards on bourgeois machismo"


*strokes chin pensively*



I feel a thesis coming on.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> I don't think I've ever seen so much bollox in my whole life.
> 
> Utterly amazing that you are lecturing minnie about not understanding what happens on her own doorstep.
> 
> You _clearly_ know so much better than anyone who has to deal with these particular kids on a day to day basis.




I've probably lived in Stockwell longer than most people on these boards, you idiot. 


Why not try addressing some of the attempts to discuss this subject intelligently, or is that utterly beyond you?


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## ajdown (Mar 31, 2011)

Whilst you've all been arguing, it seems that the police have arrested one of the three - a 19 year old man.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12923726


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## leanderman (Mar 31, 2011)

With social mobility falling and inequality rising, such tragic events are no surprise.

The wealthy increasingly dominate the best schools, universities and careers - on a hereditary basis - leaving everyone else literally to fight over the scraps.


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> I've probably lived in Stockwell longer than most people on these boards, you idiot.
> 
> 
> Why not try addressing some of the attempts to discuss this subject intelligently, or is that utterly beyond you?



So these kids were chasing the other kids and looking to shoot them because of poverty and their upbringing. Nothing to do with bravado, peer-pressure or losing face ? Righto...

Maybe you should quit using this debate to score "right-on points" and stop patronising people that actually engage with these youngsters on a regular basis ?


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## RaverDrew (Mar 31, 2011)

leanderman said:


> With social mobility falling and inequality rising, such tragic events are no surprise.
> 
> The wealthy increasingly dominate the best schools, universities and careers - on a hereditary basis - leaving everyone else literally to fight over the scraps.


 
Great, just what we need, more political points being scored over a tragedy.

I give up on this thread ffs. Most of the local yoot would piss themselves if they read it.


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## Laughing Toad (Mar 31, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> What they need is for the rest of us to stop abdicating our responsibilities and accept that the ONLY way they are going to learn to live a good life is if they have examples to learn from. That means having the chance to take part in activities with adults as peers and not simply in a supervisory role.


 
Like attending a good church, for instance.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> So these kids were chasing the other kids and looking to shoot them because of poverty and their upbringing. Nothing to do with bravado, peer-pressure or losing face ? Righto...
> 
> Maybe you should quit using this debate to score "right-on points" and stop patronising people that actually engage with these youngsters on a regular basis ?



Oh please shut up you wally. I don't think you've read my post at all; it's quite short and it clearly talks about respect and honour etc - what's that to do with if not to do with "losing face" and consequent bravado etc etc. Honestly this is pathetic stuff. Argue with what's there not with the voices in your head.

I specifically addressed one claim made by another poster - i.e. that it can't be social deprivation that "causes" people to turn to violence because other people in the same social circumstances don't do so. But the case that has been made is that social deprivation is a major risk factor, not the simple cause -  that's why violence and social status correlate so well (<this is called "evidence" btw). 

I'm not expecting you to try and grapple with this though, it's so much more fun to froth up and gibber isn't it?


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## miss minnie (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> ...
> 
> I specifically addressed one claim made by another poster - i.e. that it can't be social deprivation that "causes" people to turn to violence because other people in the same social circumstances don't do so. ...


I didn't say that it "can't be" I said that "its not necessarily symptomatic".


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> So these kids were chasing the other kids and looking to shoot them because of poverty and their upbringing. *Nothing to do with bravado, peer-pressure or losing face ?* Righto...
> 
> Maybe you should quit using this debate to score "right-on points" and stop patronising people that actually engage with these youngsters on a regular basis ?



Presumably these things exist in some kind of social vacuum?


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## Giles (Mar 31, 2011)

leanderman said:


> With social mobility falling and inequality rising, such tragic events are no surprise.
> 
> The wealthy increasingly dominate the best schools, universities and careers - on a hereditary basis - leaving everyone else literally to fight over the scraps.


 
These people would not bother with universities, exams or apprenticeships. They probably are the kids who skip school or who have been chucked out for threatening the teachers and other pupils. Or actually assaulting them.

No job or training scheme they would ever be offered will be enough for someone who wants the "glamour" of being a local bad-boy, maybe dealing, robbing people etc. 

Ordinary life is never going to match the short-term "rewards" of a criminal career choice, is it? 

Unless you are the lucky one in a million with a super sporting talent or something.

Giles..


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> I didn't say that it "can't be" I said that "its not necessarily symptomatic".



OK but I don't think the hairsplit is that important. You said;



miss minnie said:


> Its not necessarily symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc.



I think this is wrong because

(a) violence clearly displays a social gradient, it gets commoner as you move down through a social hierarchy (i.e. it IS symptomatic of deprivation) - I don't think anyone disputes this as fact.

(b) your reference to other young people not being violent or whatever is irrelevant; the fact that not everyone exposed to a risk factor ends up exhibiting the behaviour associated doesn't mean it isn't a risk factor. Unemployment is strongly correlated with depression but not everyone who is unemployed becomes depressed etc etc.


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## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

I think its more accurate to say that violence is de-legitimised as you move down the hierarchy. The Iraq war, for example, very violent and legitimised by the state.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I think its more accurate to say that violence is de-legitimised as you move down the hierarchy. The Iraq war, for example, very violent and legitimised by the state.


 
Yes that's a good way of describing it - I was using the term in its loose meaning - i.e. "violence committed by people we don't respect".


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## miss minnie (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> OK but I don't think the hairsplit is that important.


It makes a world of difference actually.



> _*Its not necessarily *_symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc.





> *It can't be *symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc.



See?


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> It makes a world of difference actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I get the technical difference between the words you've highlighted. I'm less sure about the usefulness of discussing the hairsplit and ignoring the substantive point.


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## miss minnie (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> I think I get the technical difference between the words you've highlighted. I'm less sure about the usefulness of discussing the hairsplit and ignoring the substantive point.


The point is that you choose to take something I say and twist it into something I didn't say.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> The point is that you choose to take something I say and twist it into something I didn't say.


 
*sigh*

I'm not "choosing to twist your words" etc - your intention seemed pretty clear to me, but if I've misinterpreted what you said the best thing to do is to point that out, I'll even apologise if you like. Why not address the substantive point instead of details? All I've done is said I disagree with what I believed you'd posted, that's not argumentative or rude.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Whilst you've all been arguing, it seems that the police have arrested one of the three - a 19 year old man.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12923726


 
Excellent news. It probably means they already have a fair idea who the other two were. It's also good that one of the intended targets is co-operating with their enquiry. There comes a point when whatever your opinion of the Metropolitan Police, they are a much better bet to deal with than the alternative of outright gang law. I would hope that eventually that point becomes somewat earlier than people chasing after you firing guns fairly randomly. Still, every small step helps.


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## miss minnie (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I'm not "choosing to twist your words" etc - your intention seemed pretty clear to me, but if I've misinterpreted what you said the best thing to do is to point that out, I'll even apologise if you like. Why not address the substantive point instead of details? All I've done is said I disagree with what I believed you'd posted, that's not argumentative or rude.


If you choose to misrepresent my words then why would I consider engaging with anything else you have to say?   You have no substantive points afaic.  Nothing but generalisations accompanied by a big dose of condescension.


*sigh* seriously!


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> I think I get the technical difference between the words you've highlighted. I'm less sure about the usefulness of discussing the hairsplit and ignoring the substantive point.


 
Actually it is a substantive point and not a hair split. In fact it highlights something very important.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of children in this area are growing up in relative (and often extreme) poverty. There is a clear correlation between relative levels of poverty and crime, just as there is a clear correlation between smoking cigarettes and contracting lung cancer. Pointing out that some children grow up in poverty and don't ever commit any crimes and claiming that shows there is no connection, is just as logically sound as showing that a single individual has smoked cigarettes for a while and not developed cancer in order to claim cigarettes have no connection to lung cancer. That is not logically sound in any way, shape, or form.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> If you choose to misrepresent my words then why would I consider engaging with anything else you have to say?   You have no substantive points afaic.  Nothing but generalisations accompanied by a big dose of condescension.
> 
> 
> *sigh* seriously!




Oh stop being such a drama queen! If you've been "misrepresented" and had your "words twisted" it's  because I misunderstood your original post. A more grown up response would be to engage with that not get hung up on ridiculous perceived insults. 

I actually haven't got a clue what your original post was about now but if you don't want to discuss it that'll be quite a relief.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Actually it is a substantive point and not a hair split. In fact it highlights something very important.
> 
> The simple fact is that the vast majority of children in this area are growing up in relative (and often extreme) poverty. There is a clear correlation between relative levels of poverty and crime, just as there is a clear correlation between smoking cigarettes and contracting lung cancer. Pointing out that some children grow up in poverty and don't ever commit any crimes and claiming that shows there is no connection, is just as logically sound as showing that a single individual has smoked cigarettes for a while and not developed cancer in order to claim cigarettes have no connection to lung cancer. That is not logically sound in any way, shape, or form.


 
Which is, and was, precisely my point.


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## miss minnie (Mar 31, 2011)

co-op said:


> Oh stop being such a drama queen! If you've been "misrepresented" and had your "words twisted" it's  because I misunderstood your original post. A more grown up response would be to engage with that not get hung up on ridiculous perceived insults.
> 
> I actually haven't got a clue what your original post was about now but if you don't want to discuss it that'll be quite a relief.


I thought I endeavoured to help you understand the difference between what I wrote and what you interpreted with calmness and clarity, only trying to be helpful.   You're the one doing the dramatic *sighing*!


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

Giles said:


> These people would not bother with universities, exams or apprenticeships. They probably are the kids who skip school or who have been chucked out for threatening the teachers and other pupils. Or actually assaulting them.
> 
> No job or training scheme they would ever be offered will be enough for someone who wants the "glamour" of being a local bad-boy, maybe dealing, robbing people etc.
> 
> ...


 
Which isn't entirely the case. Some of them will be, but some of them will seem perfectly well behaved when with their families or at school. They are the ones that do whatever it takes to fit in, and unfortunately what it takes to fit in when running with the gang is to be a violent and vengeful criminal, so that's what they'll be at those times.

However it is a perfectly valid point that many of them see no alternatives but crime or poverty. That in my view is where they have been failed, by their parents, by their schools, and above all by society as a whole.

They are capable of doing a well paid job. All you need to do is look at how efficiently the local gangs manage the crack market and it's clear that there are some clever kids involved with one hell of a future in retail or marketing if they but knew it. However in most cases they've never been told that. They have no examples to follow, because by and large most people from inner city areas who succeed in life don't hang around where they grew up. They don't see what they are actually capable of.


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## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2011)

Laughing Toad said:


> Like attending a good church, for instance.


 
Only if it has activities that aren't strictly supervised by a minister of some sort. Basically a church generally doesn't add anything much to their chances of a decent and peaceful life, unless it's that immensely rare creature... a church where the minister and congregation actually live according to the teachings of their religion rather than just attacking others for not doing so.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> I thought I endeavoured to help you understand the difference between what I wrote and what you interpreted with calmness and clarity, only trying to be helpful.   You're the one doing the dramatic *sighing*!


 
Thanks for all your help. I haven't got a clue what you think about violence and its possible causes but you've got some attention and I guess that's the important thing.


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## miss minnie (Apr 1, 2011)

co-op said:


> Thanks for all your help. I haven't got a clue what you think about violence and its possible causes but you've got some attention and I guess that's the important thing.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 1, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> I live a few blocks from this incident.  It happened on Tues night, the Thurs before that we had a bunch of kids arrive from the same general direction and a series of skirmishes took place with my neighbours.  On the Fri night a bunch of kids on bikes accompanied by a car arrived and a neighbour was stabbed.  Police attended both incidents.
> 
> This sort of thing is not very common here, it happens only sporadically.  Its not necessarily symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc.
> 
> Some years ago I witnessed a bit of 'gang culture' arise on this patch.  There was a very definite leader and when he left the scene the gang subsided straight away.  Quite decent kids if you got to chat with any, away from the 'gang'.


 
It's also important to note that this sort of gang violence is not restricted to the inner cities. It happens amongst far wealthier children, where it is more likely to be referred to as youthful high jinks that went too far.

To give an example. Back when I was at college, four of us were walking past a hall of residence late one evening just as a group were ejected from a party. They walked up behind us and just laid into us in a completely unprovoked attack. I ended up with cuts and bruises and my glasses smashed, another ended up blind in one eye. Fortunately the other two managed to get away, and just around the corner met some members of the college rugby club who knew us all. They charged over to grapple with the gang who were by then attempting to kick our heads in whilst we were on the ground. As I was helped away to be patched up (and my mate was led away to get a taxi to Casualty) I saw a bunch of seriously large and somewhat irritated rugby players holding our assailants by the legs and banging their heads on car bonnets.

It turns out they were a bunch of students from an Oxford college who decided that as some Imperial College students had ejected them from a party for sexually harrassing one of the girls at the party, that some other IC "oiks" should be made to pay for the insult. We just happened to be handy.

It was reported to their college, where it was apparently treated as a bit of a laugh that got out of hand and not really a disciplinary matter.

Actually it's an example of gang violence of much the same kind. There is a difference in the level of armament involved. However kicking somebody repeatedly about the head when they are prone on the floor is just as much an attempt to kill or seriously injure them as an attack with a knife or gun. The big difference is between working class kids from a council estate and ex public schoolkids from an Oxbridge college.

Social deprivation is relevant because it limits the options available to children. It isn't a requirement for gang violence, it just means it's much more difficult for children to avoid being drawn into it.


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## editor (Apr 1, 2011)

Here's an interesting fact:


> Even more chilling were the statistics about gun crime. If you think it primarily takes place in inner cities, you're wrong; rural areas have the highest rate. Midsomer Murders, Lewis, Miss Marple: the English countryside, it would appear, isn't such an unlikely setting for murder after all.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/8407496/This-Is-Britain-BBC-Two-review.html


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## co-op (Apr 1, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> It's also important to note that this sort of gang violence is not restricted to the inner cities. It happens amongst far wealthier children,



For example the Columbine High School massacre which took place in the economic equivalent of a gated community (median income of inhabitants of Columbine = $120,000). Clearly the social gradient does not result from a simple causal link but involves other factors.


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## Badgers (Apr 1, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Whilst you've all been arguing, it seems that the police have arrested one of the three - a 19 year old man.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12923726


 
Didn't think it would take long.


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## co-op (Apr 1, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Social deprivation is relevant because it limits the options available to children. It isn't a requirement for gang violence, it just means it's much more difficult for children to avoid being drawn into it.



Obviously there will be some children who get involved with gang violence simply because it's more prevalent in their neighbourhood - it's an available option, so here you'd have peer-pressure, the glamour etc as factors.

But there's plenty of evidence for a more intrinsic role for social deprivation than simply making it more difficult for children to avoid getting drawn into it. Provoking a violent response from any given individual is an unpredictable business but some sort of 'insult' seems the best method. Obviously this insult is in the eye of the beholder; that is, people behaving violently almost always consider themselves to be _responding_ to an attack not initiating one. And this is a pretty deep cultural 'given' - responsive violence is not just justified, it is celebrated as noble and restores honour and manhood to the perpetrators - see just about any U.S. film for corroboration of that.

The further down a social hierarchy you are born, the more likely it is that you have been denied sources of social honour and self-respect (money, success, fame, whatever) and thus the more likely it is that a certain proportion of people will be faced with the choice of either accepting that they are essentially social nobodies or unwanted rubbish or enforcing 'respect' by whatever means come to hand. This is not some by-product of social hierarchy, in the way that say - higher rates of smoking is - it is _intrinsic_ to social status hierarchy. Make social wealth divisions wider and you get greater pre-disposition to the use of violence, make them narrower and you get less.


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## JWH (Apr 1, 2011)

co-op said:


> For example the Columbine High School massacre which took place in the economic equivalent of a gated community (median income of inhabitants of Columbine = $120,000). Clearly the social gradient does not result from a simple causal link but involves other factors.


 
While not disagreeing with your general thrust necessarily, I would disagree that the Columbine murders could be referred to as "gang crime".


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## co-op (Apr 1, 2011)

JWH said:


> While not disagreeing with your general thrust necessarily, I would disagree that the Columbine murders could be referred to as "gang crime".


 
I'd agree it doesn't fit the standard template, so to speak, - it was a very middle-class place so you'd expect the structures to be different from those generated in an inner-city environment with widespread poverty.

But the perpetrators - Klebbold (can't recall the exact name) and Harris had been systematically bullied and humiliated as 'faggots' and 'weirdos' etc by a dominant group within the school for many years, and it's clear that some of the bullying involved physical violence. It was systematic and organised and ultimately the victims decided to enforce respect and obtain revenge in the socially-approved way, i.e. by counter-violence. They restored their manhood.

I'm not saying that Columbine was a 'gang event' btw - but that the psychological processes involved are pretty similar. For a start I doubt that a Stockwell wannabe gangster would put up with years of humiliation before responding, a few seconds maybe. But calling something 'gang crime' is often a way of pigeon-holing it in the 'ignore' tray, in terms of trying to understand what we need to do to reduce it, especially when there are clearly many people who utterly refute the idea that social deprivation has anything to do with this kind of violence.


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## JWH (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't wish to derail this thread (as it isn't really relevant) and I agree with your last sentence but I'm not sure if the explanation you give for Klebold and Harris's actions is actually borne out by what happened before the shooting, although it was definitely the initial narrative immediately after. But in any case maybe discussion of what constitutes "gang crime" could be an interesting thread on its own.


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## tommers (Apr 1, 2011)

There's a hell of a lot of generalising going on in this thread.  Do any of us actually know any of the kids involved?

All we know is they were black teenagers on bikes.  Somehow we've got to them being the products of broken homes, suffering extreme poverty, playing up (or maybe not) at school, responding to a perceived insult, being gang members blah blah blah.

We don't know any of this stuff, it's all just being assumed.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

An urban thread with liberal hand-wringing and navel gazing ?  No wai !!!


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## The Octagon (Apr 1, 2011)

co-op said:


> But the perpetrators - Klebbold (can't recall the exact name) and Harris had been systematically bullied and humiliated as 'faggots' and 'weirdos' etc by a dominant group within the school for many years, and it's clear that some of the bullying involved physical violence. It was systematic and organised and ultimately the victims decided to enforce respect and obtain revenge in the socially-approved way, i.e. by counter-violence. They restored their manhood.
> 
> I'm not saying that Columbine was a 'gang event' btw - but that the psychological processes involved are pretty similar. For a start I doubt that a Stockwell wannabe gangster would put up with years of humiliation before responding, a few seconds maybe. But calling something 'gang crime' is often a way of pigeon-holing it in the 'ignore' tray, in terms of trying to understand what we need to do to reduce it, especially when there are clearly many people who utterly refute the idea that social deprivation has anything to do with this kind of violence.


 
I know this is slightly off-topic, and JWH has kind of covered it, but the above is the media spin on Columbine, not the reality. Harris was a sadistic bully throughout school and Klebold, although prone to depression and erratic behaviour, had other close friends and wasn't above preying on those weaker than himself. 

They didn't 'snap' against their fellow pupils after being beaten or ridiculed, they systematically developed and planned, over months and even years, what would turn out to be a failed bombing of the school cafeteria, egging each other on at various stages until it was too late to turn back. Only when the bombs failed did they start shooting.

The whole situation seems pretty far removed from what happened in Stockwell, IMO.


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## co-op (Apr 1, 2011)

The Octagon said:


> I know this is slightly off-topic, and JWH has kind of covered it, but the above is the media spin on Columbine, not the reality. Harris was a sadistic bully throughout school and Klebold, although prone to depression and erratic behaviour, had other close friends and wasn't above preying on those weaker than himself.
> 
> They didn't 'snap' against their fellow pupils after being beaten or ridiculed, they systematically developed and planned, over months and even years, what would turn out to be a failed bombing of the school cafeteria, egging each other on at various stages until it was too late to turn back. Only when the bombs failed did they start shooting.
> 
> The whole situation seems pretty far removed from what happened in Stockwell, IMO.



I wasn't trying to make the direct comparison, but ericjarvis had raised the question of outbreaks of extreme violence in wealthy communities and Columbine was an example of that, in fact that was why it got so much attention in the States - it was considered anomalous. 

FWIW I don't think anything you say above about Klebold and Harris particularly undermines what I said about them - and as the subject becomes political pretty much immediately I'd expect there to be controversy over the ownership of their story.


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## co-op (Apr 1, 2011)

tommers said:


> There's a hell of a lot of generalising going on in this thread.  Do any of us actually know any of the kids involved?
> 
> All we know is they were black teenagers on bikes.  Somehow we've got to them being the products of broken homes, suffering extreme poverty, playing up (or maybe not) at school, responding to a perceived insult, being gang members blah blah blah.
> 
> We don't know any of this stuff, it's all just being assumed.



We've moved from the specific incident to discussing the roots of violence, from the arena of the concrete & anecdotal to the arena of abstract thought. No one's made any claim to know exactly what happened in this case or what the 'provocation' for it was. The question being discussed is, does social deprivation have a role to play in violence?


----------



## metal13 (Apr 1, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Whilst you've all been arguing, it seems that the police have arrested one of the three - a 19 year old man.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12923726


 


> "A tragic incident but an isolated incident, and not the result of a culmination of ongoing issues." -- Chief Superintendent Nick Ephgrave, Metropolitan Police



Given all the recent shootings and stabbings that have occurred in the Brixton/Stockwell area, I don't really believe this. Gang violence seems more prevalent this year then in years past, but perhaps that is just because it's  more public then before.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

New thread ?


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## editor (Apr 1, 2011)

metal13 said:


> Given all the recent shootings and stabbings that have occurred in the Brixton/Stockwell area, I don't really believe this. Gang violence seems more prevalent this year then in years past, but perhaps that is just because it's  more public then before.


 Shootings are considerably down on previous years.


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## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> An urban thread with liberal hand-wringing and navel gazing ?  No wai !!!


 
What do you mean by "liberal" in this context?  Someone who subscribes to liberalism as a philosophy?  or something else?


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## ericjarvis (Apr 1, 2011)

tommers said:


> There's a hell of a lot of generalising going on in this thread.  Do any of us actually know any of the kids involved?


 
Not directly so far as I am aware. I know some people that almost certainly know them if they are from the Stockwell Park Estate. However I know a few kids from the Angell Town gang.


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## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

Aha! Do you know the former gang members from Angell Town who wrote a book? I've been meaning to read it for ages but I've forgotten what it's called.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 1, 2011)

co-op said:


> I wasn't trying to make the direct comparison, but ericjarvis had raised the question of outbreaks of extreme violence in wealthy communities and Columbine was an example of that, in fact that was why it got so much attention in the States - it was considered anomalous.


 
Actually I was trying to point out that many of the principle elements of gang culture are there amongst privileged kids, but seen very differently by the media and the criminal justice system.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 1, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Aha! Do you know the former gang members from Angell Town who wrote a book? I've been meaning to read it for ages but I've forgotten what it's called.


 
Elijah Kerr. The book is called "Street Kids" if I recall correctly. Thing is you have to bear in mind that he's nobody's fool and busily trying to create a gang history for Angell Town that he sees as likely to be a positive influence. So the book contains a lot of interesting stuff, and it gives some insight into the gang mindset, but it can't be relied on as a "historical document". Well worth reading though.

I've met him, though I wouldn't say I count him as somebody I know. I've also got his album, which is disappointing. He can rap and he has some things worth saying, but unfortunately the music simply doesn't cut it.


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## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

He told me he couldn't put much in the book because every 'fact' prompted yet another police interrogation.


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## Mrs Redboots (Apr 1, 2011)

editor said:


> Here's an interesting fact:


 
Because it is a lot easier to have a legal gun in the country than in the city - farmers, gamekeepers, etc, can usually get shotgun licenses....


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## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

As did that barrister who had a shootout in Chelsea.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 1, 2011)

nick h. said:


> He told me he couldn't put much in the book because every 'fact' prompted yet another police interrogation.


 
Something backed up by what I heard from the former beat bobby for the area when I discussed the book with him.

As I said, it's well worth reading and a point of view well worth looking at, however it's far from the whole story in and of itself. Everyone should read it, but should understand that simply having read it doesn't mean they know all about gangs in Angell Town.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 1, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Elijah Kerr. The book is called "Street Kids" if I recall correctly.



Street Boys.


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)




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## Gramsci (Apr 2, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's  plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.



For your information I have lived in central Brixton for many years. I seen a lot of things. Including 4 youths stab a Taxi driver for no other reason than respect. Multiple wounds with Stanley knives. An incident I was one of only 2 people prepared to come forward as witnesses.

If my comments are right on or liberal hand wringing I think im entitled to them. I live in the middle of this.

I can understand why people like Giles are outraged by this. Its just that at some point one has to step back and look at the underlying causes.

Also I think not all the parents of these youths are lone single parents with absent fathers.

When the case I was a witness for ( attempted murder) came to court some of the defendants parents came to court. They all looked gutted that there children had done this.

I dont have all the answers about why this kind of violence happens.


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## metal13 (Apr 2, 2011)

editor said:


> Shootings are considerably down on previous years.


 
That's interesting, and good! Where did you get the data for this? I can't find a good source, and the met's crime map tracking site is pretty rubbish for information.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 2, 2011)

16% down is the figure I've heard. Met bod on Radio 4 talking on the Today programme this morning about the Stockwell Road shooting. Still available on i-Player or the Today website.


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## Gramsci (Apr 2, 2011)

metal13 said:


> That's interesting, and good! Where did you get the data for this? I can't find a good source, and the met's crime map tracking site is pretty rubbish for information.


 
Its down 27.2% when u compare February 2010 and February 2011 according to Met site for London.

http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/textonly_month.htm

In Lambeth the gun crime figures are static:

http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/boroughs/lx_month - mps.htm


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## co-op (Apr 3, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's  plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.



RaverDrew - doesn't it look to you like most of the people posting on this thread are pretty local to what's happened? I've lived in Brixton and Stockwell since the mid-80s, including about at least 12 years on the Loughborough Estate and Spurgeon in Stockwell. I've seen plenty and had to intervene in stuff too, it's kind of inevitable unless you are living in some sort of gated community or one of the real enclaves of wealth somewhere. I'm really struggling to work out why your shouty response is so much more 'realistic' or useful than posters questioning some of the more obvious (and - arguably wrongheaded) kneejerk responses. 

I'm really not the slightest bit interested in being "right-on" and I'd guess I have quite a bit more experience of the area and some of its problems than you have. Instead of hurling stereotypical insults around why not post an opinion or two - why does this happen? what can we do about it? - and try and justify those opinions with argument and evidence?


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## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

co-op said:


> RaverDrew... <snip - more navel-gazing, and "I'm considerably more Brixton/Stockwell than yow" bollox>



Three days on and my comments are still bothering you enough to bump this thread again ?  Drop me out....

How about you leave this thread to be used for reporting about the incident that happened eh ?

If you want to glory-wank and pollute this topic with your personal social and political theories on youth crime, then you wont be getting another response from me. I've said all I have to say. It is what it is, take what you want from it.


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## co-op (Apr 3, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Three days on and my comments are still bothering you enough to bump this thread again ?  Drop me out....
> 
> How about you leave this thread to be used for reporting about the incident that happened eh ?
> 
> If you want to glory-wank and pollute this topic with your personal social and political theories on youth crime, then you wont be getting another response from me. I've said all I have to say. It is what it is, take what you want from it.


 
I'm sorry you think discussing the possible reasons for this sad event is a 'glory-wank'. I'm also not sure why it's ok for you to shoot your mouth off and not for anyone else. But if you don't want to, or can't, explain why you think what you do, that's your perogative.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 3, 2011)

What's a bit mad is that drew initially said that those not from the area shouldn't be lecturing those that are and now it turns out you are from the area you're being berated for pointing that out too.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 3, 2011)

Drew's friend was in the shop when it happened so his feelings are doubtless ravelled up in that. It must have been terrifying.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

Just to clarify, not actually in the shop at the time, but went to walk into the shop after the incident happened just as they were locking the doors and waiting for the police to arrive. 

I don't want any more unsolicited pm's from journo's thanks.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> *What's a bit mad is that drew initially said that those not from the area shouldn't be lecturing those that are* and now it turns out you are from the area you're being berated for pointing that out too.


 
That's not what I said at all.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 3, 2011)

Perhaps i interpreted it incorrectly then. As you were.



RaverDrew said:


> Utterly amazing that you are lecturing minnie about not understanding what happens on her own doorstep.
> 
> You _clearly_ know so much better than anyone who has to deal with these particular kids on a day to day basis.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 3, 2011)

The problem with this thread is that people have quite different reactions to this sort of thing. Some people have an overriding emotional response that lasts for quite a while, some people quickly get over the initial emotional response and try to react purely logically, and some of us have built up a huge store of anger over similar incidents over many years and react with a conditioned reflex that may be based on either emotion or logical analysis. It's very easy to see ones own reaction as being the only sensible one, and every alternative a sign of something being badly wrong. In fact all the reactions are reasonable. However, whilct I accept that an instinctive emotional revulsion is something that has to be taken into account, I object to the idea that because that's how some people react that the rest of us shouldn't get on with a logical analysis of how to improve things.

So. Drew, Giles, and so on, I'm not belittling the emotions behind your responses, but they don't give you the right to accuse anyone who expresses anything else as being unconcerned/unaware/pretentiously "right-on"/excusing the criminals etc. Personally I've just been too effing close to too many dumb violent assaults to waste time on righteous anger when we've already gone through all the same shit hundreds of times. I have an initial reaction of being absolutely livid that every time these things happen the mainstream of the media, and the bulk of the general public, simply have a short spell of berating the "wickedness of kids today", an even shorter period of handwringing and bemoaning the loss of a fictional golden age when these things didn't happen (which usually means grieving for a childhood when these things weren't relevant), and then fuck all until it happens again. Just once I'd like to see some concerted effort to see whether it's possible to come up with sensible and rational ways in which WE (by which I mean all of us and not some mysterious "they" acting on our behalf) can do something towards making it less likely to happen again.

Attacking everyone who doesn't respond with the correct emotional over reaction doesn't get us anywhere.


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## clandestino (Apr 5, 2011)

17 year old suspect of the shooting has been stabbed, and is currently in Kings. 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20110405/tuk-teenage-shooting-suspect-stabbed-6323e80.html


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## RaverDrew (Apr 5, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Perhaps i interpreted it incorrectly then. As you were.


 
I think maybe so, the context of that comment was co-op trying to lecture minnie about an incident that she saw happen right outside her home, and that he didn't. Completely daft imo. But hey ho, just my opinion innit.

I got no beef with anyone on this thread, but I've clearly upset some and unintentionally derailed the thread somewhat by using the word liberal. I won't bother again, but I still stand by everything I've said.

Btw eric I think that most of what you've posted is absolutely spot on, and also put far more eloquently than I could ever manage.


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## co-op (Apr 5, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> I think maybe so, the context of that comment was co-op trying to lecture minnie about an incident that she saw happen right outside her home, and that he didn't. Completely daft imo. But hey ho, just my opinion innit.
> 
> I got no beef with anyone on this thread, but I've clearly upset some and unintentionally derailed the thread somewhat by using the word liberal. I won't bother again, but I still stand by everything I've said.
> 
> Btw eric I think that most of what you've posted is absolutely spot on, and also put far more eloquently than I could ever manage.



I think it's pretty obvious that I wasn't trying to "lecture" anyone, I said I thought something that someone had posted was wrong and I don't think I did so rudely. She obviously took umbrage but that's quite normal on the internet.

TBF I was a bit ruder to you but then you were dishing it out, so there you go.


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## Gramsci (Apr 6, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> The problem with this thread is that people have quite different reactions to this sort of thing. Some people have an overriding emotional response that lasts for quite a while, some people quickly get over the initial emotional response and try to react purely logically, and some of us have built up a huge store of anger over similar incidents over many years and react with a conditioned reflex that may be based on either emotion or logical analysis. It's very easy to see ones own reaction as being the only sensible one, and every alternative a sign of something being badly wrong. In fact all the reactions are reasonable. However, whilct I accept that an instinctive emotional revulsion is something that has to be taken into account, I object to the idea that because that's how some people react that the rest of us shouldn't get on with a logical analysis of how to improve things.
> 
> 
> Attacking everyone who doesn't respond with the correct emotional over reaction doesn't get us anywhere.



Good point. As im one of those who can be characterised as "liberal handwringer" I would add that I can have all the responses to an incident like this together. That is why i have some sympathy for Giles. 

If I had been present my reaction would have not been rational. The instance where i did witness this kind of violence left an indelible mark on me. However it was not until Raverdrew wound me up that i remembered it. I had pushed it out of my conscious memory.


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## ash (Apr 6, 2011)

Can we just stick with the attempted MURDER as that is what this thread is about.  Keep your childish banter to yourself


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## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 6, 2011)

childish banter is more along the lines of yo mama jokes* this on the other hand is very much adult banter   and is  generally 90% of what goes on on urban without it threads would be a lot shorter, server costs would be down  and  generally the place would be a lot less interesting.   do you really want to gentrify urban?


* or possibly discussions about gun maintenance  in rare unfortunate cases


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## Riklet (Apr 6, 2011)

ash said:


> Can we just stick with the attempted MURDER as that is what this thread is about.  Keep your childish banter to yourself


 
Errrr it's a useful and interesting discussion.  To keep the thread merely about 'attempted MURDER' is to neglect examining this event and the circumstances around it in the way that it should be - inquisitively and with an aim to address both causes and solutions.

You don't get very far if your only answer to why this happened is because those who did this are 'murderers' or 'evil people' IMO.  There have already been some ace posts in this thread wording things better than I can, especially since I have no experience of living in Brixton.  

You've already got other teenagers trying to kill those suspected of attempted murder, with one of them stabbed in a supposedly 'unrelated' incident.  This is not a situation people can just sit back and disengage from just like that, and the discussion on this thread; 'liberal hand wringing', personal experience, sociological analysis, or whatever, is what makes this site somewhere you can actually learn something.  Or should this just be pages and pages of 'they need stringing/locking up....'?


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## editor (Apr 6, 2011)

One of the suspects has been stabbed:



> One of the teenage suspects in the shooting of five-year-old Thusha Kamaleswaran has been stabbed.
> 
> The 17-year-old is in a "serious but stable" condition under police guard in hospital, sources confirmed.
> 
> ...


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## kittyP (Apr 6, 2011)

editor said:


> One of the suspects has been stabbed:


 
I think someone said this yesterday but it got lost in the banter


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## kittyP (Apr 6, 2011)

I am a little confused about what I have read. 
Did one of the perpetrators hand himself in to the police? 
Who handed themselves in and who was arrested? 
Sorry just read conflicting things and got confused.


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## girasol (Apr 6, 2011)

ianw said:


> 17 year old suspect of the shooting has been stabbed, and is currently in Kings.
> 
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20110405/tuk-teenage-shooting-suspect-stabbed-6323e80.html



Not sure putting them both in the same hospital AND telling everyone where the suspect is being treated is a great idea...


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## Ms T (Apr 6, 2011)

kittyP said:


> I am a little confused about what I have read.
> Did one of the perpetrators hand himself in to the police?
> Who handed themselves in and who was arrested?
> Sorry just read conflicting things and got confused.


 
I think it was one of the boys who was the intended victim who went to the police.


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## shygirl (Apr 6, 2011)

They're under armed guard.  And Ms T is right.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 6, 2011)

ash said:


> Can we just stick with the attempted MURDER as that is what this thread is about.  Keep your childish banter to yourself


 
Totally, the reaction to my comments has somewhat derailed the thread, if anyone still has a problem with my terminology then I'm more than happy for them to take it to pm instead. 



Gramsci said:


> Good point. As im one of those who can be characterised as "liberal handwringer" I would add that I can have all the responses to an incident like this together. That is why i have some sympathy for Giles.
> 
> If I had been present my reaction would have not been rational. The instance where i did witness this kind of violence left an indelible mark on me. However it was not until Raverdrew wound me up that i remembered it. I had pushed it out of my conscious memory.


 
I can only apologise if I've inadvertently brought back any distress with those words Gramsci, the situation you mention sounds horrible  I honestly didn't realise that what I said would cause anyone such problems.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 6, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Btw eric I think that most of what you've posted is absolutely spot on, and also put far more eloquently than I could ever manage.


 
Part of what I'm trying to say is that we actually almost all share the same basic responses to this sort of thing, we just get around to them in a different order and for different times. However a lot of those responses are strongly emotional so it's easy for all of us to overreact.


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## Gramsci (Apr 6, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> I can only apologise if I've inadvertently brought back any distress with those words Gramsci, the situation you mention sounds horrible  I honestly didn't realise that what I said would cause anyone such problems.


 
Thanks for posting this Raverdrew.


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## EastEnder (May 12, 2011)

Stockwell shooting victim Thusha, 5, 'may never walk'


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2011)

EastEnder said:


> Stockwell shooting victim Thusha, 5, 'may never walk'



Poor girl.  



> Nathaniel Grant, 20, of Camberwell New Road, Camberwell, Kazeem Kolawoli, 18, of Black Prince Road, Lambeth, and Anthony McCalla, 19, of Oakdale Road, Streatham, were charged with attempted murder.



Wonder what pathetic sentences they'll receive


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## agricola (Mar 26, 2012)

Bumped because the three accused were convicted today, and will be sentenced (for GBH on the girl and the other bystander, for possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and for attempted murder on the bloke they were trying to shoot) on the 19th of April. One would hope it will be for a very long time indeed, given how utterly needless this was and how incredibly sad that CCTV footage is.

Thusha (the girl they shot) only gets to be released from hospital next week.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2012)

agricola said:


> Bumped because the three accused were convicted today, and will be sentenced (for GBH on the girl and the other bystander, for possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and for attempted murder on the bloke they were trying to shoot) on the 19th of April. One would hope it will be for a very long time indeed, given how utterly needless this was and how incredibly sad that CCTV footage is.
> 
> Thusha (the girl they shot) only gets to be released from hospital next week.


 
What else will they be charged with?  Surely *Intent to Endanger Life *and *Attempted Murder *aren't the crimes that relate to the poor girl?  Is there not another charge for what they did to her?


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## agricola (Mar 26, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What else will they be charged with? Surely *Intent to Endanger Life *and *Attempted Murder *aren't the crimes that relate to the poor girl? Is there not another charge for what they did to her?


 
GBH (and probably in its section 20 form) is the most serious charge that they could have been charged with in relation the injuries they caused to her - as it appears they didnt intend to shoot her or the other bloke - but possession of a firearm w/i to endanger life and attempted murder are both offences that you can (and one would hope should, in this case) get life for.  They did get convicted on all counts though, it seems.


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## peterkro (Mar 26, 2012)

I think the maximum for GBH is life,and since they were tooled up I'm guessing it's GBH with intent.It's also possible they'll get hefty and possibly consecutive sentences for the other stuff.I can see them getting 30year tariffs.Mind you IANAL.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2012)

agricola said:


> GBH (and probably in its section 20 form) is the most serious charge that they could have been charged with in relation the injuries they caused to her - as it appears they didnt intend to shoot her or the other bloke - but possession of a firearm w/i to endanger life and attempted murder are both offences that you can (and one would hope should, in this case) get life for. * They did get convicted on all counts though, it seems.*




Good


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2012)

peterkro said:


> I think the maximum for GBH is life,and since they were tooled up I'm guessing it's GBH with intent.It's also possible they'll get hefty and possibly consecutive sentences for the other stuff.I can see them getting 30year tariffs.Mind you IANAL.


 
That's optimistic


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## Giles (Mar 26, 2012)

They gave those other idiots who shot and killed a teenage girl in a food takeaway in quite similar circumstances (stupid "gang related" violence killing innocent bystander) very very long tariffs, so lets hope that they throw the book at them.

Giles..


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## goldenecitrone (Mar 26, 2012)

Surplus cunts. Hope they don't see the light of day again.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 27, 2012)

agricola said:


> They did get convicted on all counts though, it seems.


One of them had previously been acquitted of the murder of a boy on my street, almost identical circumstances, shooting into a shop and hitting an innocent bystander.


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## daedj (Mar 28, 2012)

Some of the police involved in the investigation are doing the Three Peaks Challange to raise money for Thusha Kamaleswaran. Details here:

http://www.threepeakschallenge.net/4148/team-thusha


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## Giles (Apr 19, 2012)

17 years minimum sentence for the gunman.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17766713

Giles..


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## Frumious B. (Apr 20, 2012)

Three teenagers sentenced to life for that murder at Victoria Station in 2010 when a couple of dozen schoolkids arranged to meet for a fight http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17781660  The recklessness of it reminds me of the Stockwell shooting. Both groups of murderers would have known that they were bound to be caught. That's the bit that baffles me. Even if you've decided to shoot or stab someone, why do it in such a way that you're guaranteed to spend your adult life in prison? How do people end up thinking like that? It's not as if they're aiming for a criminal career - they take so little trouble to avoid being caught they may as well hand themselves in. What's the logic? Life is so shit that I might as well live in prison?


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## Giles (Apr 20, 2012)

They seem so wrapped up in their sad world of wannabe gangsters that they aren't capable of reasoning very far ahead.

Giles..


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

She's just been on the news, looking fantastic and starting to walk again


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

She's really made me smile

http://www.itv.com/news/2013-03-25/...-years-after-being-shot-by-gang-in-stockwell/


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## ddraig (Mar 25, 2013)

awwwww  and awe


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## Winot (Mar 25, 2013)

I really wish these old threads didn't get tweeted on Brixton Buzz when resurrected. It looks like new news and does Brixton's reputation no good at all.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

Weren't me!


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