# The Last Jedi : BEWARE SPOILERS YOU SHOULD



## ruffneck23 (Dec 13, 2017)

Spoiler thread for those who have seen it...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

Right, I can now return to this thread.



Spoiler



Loved the first 20-30 mins, then it started to drag, then it turned into Return of the Jedi. 

Lots to enjoy, but ended up feeling a little disappointed.

As previously, thought there were some potentially interesting ideas that ended up being rather squandered.

More to follow, no doubt...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

Spoiler



Random thoughts:

Why did Laura Dern not tell anyone her plan? What was the point in the failed mutiny that ended as quickly as it started?

Showing how strong Leia is with the force? Grand. Doing it by making her look like a space witch/Mary Poppins? Didn't land for me.

Snoke ended up being... no-one?

Thought the relationship between Rey and Ren was interesting; the idea of these two young force users, on different but also similar paths, both looking for someone to guide them and instead finding each other... But I thought they didn't really explore it or follow through as much as they could. Couple of scenes, but then it just went back to fighting each other.

I hate those stupid little what I believe are called porgs. And I liked the ewoks.

Great to see Chewie flying the Falcon... solo, if you will. Ruined by the porg.

What was the point of Maz, the whole hacker thing. Just to give Finn something to do? Maybe I'm missing character development stuff, but plot-wise it didn't really do much. And if you want to give Finn a reason to become more brave and heroic, there's better ways to do it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

From t'other thread.


Lord Camomile said:


> Right, I can now return to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Lord Camomile said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## 5t3IIa (Dec 14, 2017)

I’m going in 8 hrs 52 minutes


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

right.....

I enjoyed it but wasnt blown away and prefered TFA if im honest, I'm with Lord Camomile on a few points



Spoiler



The Bad : the Leia thing was just stupid , as was using the force over distance, why didnt the emperor or Vader do this? , seemed like showing off for showing off sake ? Phasma didn't need to be in it and as for Snoke ,completely wasted. Finn was completely underused and Rose as sweet as she was , was still a bit rubbish.Rey's parentage.
And Lukes death didnt have anywhere as much resonance as Han's
The Ok : Didnt mind the porgs , the humour was just ok 
The Good : The space battles were awesome , R2 sorting Luke out was a nice look back. Kylo Ren wasnt too bad in this one , shows he can act.



I think I will have to see it again at some point


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> right.....
> 
> I enjoyed it but wasnt blown away and prefered TFA if im honest, I'm with Lord Camomile on a few points
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yeah, Phasma was definitely underused. Could have been another strand to enrich the story, in the end it was slightly cheap character-development/plot for Finn.

I didn't mind Rose at all (for some reason her sister's death rather got to me, even though we'd only known her for all of 30 seconds), but I just felt their whole sub-plot was rendered pretty pointless. I mean, I suppose you could argue that in real life plans don't always play out perfectly and are rendered inert, but just feel like even if that's the point you want to make it could have been done better. They ran to a planet, ran around for a bit, got captured, then ran back to their vessel, only to be caught again. And for what? Nothing really advanced, except the two characters had an adventure together that I suppose is supposed to develop the relationship between them and, in turn, that between Finn and Rey.

Also agree about Luke's death. No problem with him Jedi-fading - that guy has had quite the arc and we've been there with him for most of it) but it seemed a bit... rushed? Missed? I dunno, just missed the mark a little.

Also, didn't like the flashbacks. Just don't think they fit in the SW universe.

Yoda should either have been used better or not in it too. It was nice to see them back together (much like Luke and R2, actually - Mark Hamill seems to be pretty good at developing relationships with puppets  ), but like a lot else it seemed more fan/nostalgia service.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 14, 2017)

I prefer this to Force Awakens, I came away from it feeling like I'd been entertained by a spectacle whereas leaving TFA I felt disappointed and annoyed by what turned out to be such a lost opportunity to reunite some of my favourite characters. I wasn't expecting much from this one and was pleasantly surprised but yes, certainly some bad points.



Spoiler



I thought Ren & Kylo were going to team up as some all-powerfull intergalactic yin and yang duo of the force to knock the First Order & Rebellion's heads together to point out the cyclic & pointless nature of the ebbing and flowing of their conflict - a point also made by the exposing of the arms traders getting rich selling to both sides.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



totally forgot about Yoda til then ,  which is weird as when he turned up a huge grin on my face also turned up lol 
more thoughts , benicio de toros (sp? ) character didnt seem right, seemed to be trying to do a Lando at could city switch
the more i think about it the more im picking holes in it 
However was still much better than the prequels
 [/spoilers]


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

Indeliblelink said:


> I prefer this to Force Awakens, I came away from it feeling like I'd been entertained by a spectacle whereas leaving TFA I felt disappointed and annoyed by what turned out to be such a lost opportunity reunite some of my favourite characters. I wasn't expecting much from this one and was pleasantly surprised but yes certainly some bad points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought that too , well hoped


----------



## Wilf (Dec 14, 2017)

Deathstars, always have a design flaw. Should have gone on Rated People.


----------



## chilango (Dec 14, 2017)

First thoughts.

I really enjoyed it.

Particularly 



Spoiler: The Nihilistic streak



Kylo’s desire to kill the past. That Rey’s parents were nobodies (though I’m suspicious about this). Del Toro’s character was ace (hopefully he’ll reappear st some point) and the arms dealers arming both sides. Luke chucking the light sabre wordlessly off the cliff and the whole end the Jedi religion vibe. The pointlessness and seeming dead ends of some of the action.





Spoiler: Kylo/Ben



Surprisingly good. There was a moment where he cast a glance at Hux for repeating his orders. Class.





Spoiler: Luke’s Island



well realised. The milk scene 



Rose Tico was cool.

I like the ending.


But...



Spoiler: Kylo & Rey



The whole Kylo/Rey psychic connection was really really annoying and Snope’s claim if responsibility for this felt inadequate. I still fear for a brother/sister reprise here.





Spoiler: Yoda



Why?





Spoiler: Leia



Flying thru Space? Stupid.



...and the Porg were mercifully peripheral.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 14, 2017)

edit: cos me and the spoilercode are not on the same page.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

Indeliblelink said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

this completely, i liked it but felt empty afterwards , , im a bit down about it lol , still lets see how it pans out


----------



## Wilf (Dec 14, 2017)

Carrie Fisher being centre stage for much of the film was sad and a bit weird, because...

edit: ffs! What am I doing wrong with this twatty spoiler code! 

Gah: another fail. The force is not strong in this one.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

you dont need it here but...



Spoiler



then end it with( [/spoiler} ) brakets not included


----------



## Wilf (Dec 14, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> you dont need it here but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shurely, _'need it here you do not'_?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

yes, right you are


----------



## Wilf (Dec 14, 2017)

Well in the spirit of spoilerdom: It was obviously poignant having Carrie Fisher on screen, when much of her character's dialogue was about getting older. But the weird/sad bit was that she was also _the bereaved_.


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

Fuck me, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread having enjoyed the movie. I knew it - people on Urban only go to movies in order to moan about them - and I still forgot. Doh.

There were no significant similarities to Return of the Jedi BTW. Don't think you can have paid much attention to the original films if you can say that. But I can't be arsed going over the rest of it or giving my own positive opinion knowing that you lot'll just tear it apart.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> There were no significant similarities to Return of the Jedi BTW. Don't think you can have paid much attention to the original films if you can say that. But I can't be arsed going over the rest of it or giving my own positive opinion knowing that you lot'll just tear it apart.





Spoiler



Throne room - supreme leader - Sith Lord/apprentice - novice Jedi they want to seduce to the dark side, that in turn is trying to bring back the Sith Lord/apprentice to the light side - "I've seen the good in him"/"he is conflicted" - "look at this battle currently going on in space where your friends are dying and have no chance" - Sith kills supreme leader...

Admittedly he killed Snoke for different reasons to Vader killing Palpatine, but by that point I was already disappointed they'd done so little with it. He even said "we can rule together"; he just missed off "as father and son"!

That's just off the top of my head, pretty sure I counted others too.

I was aware that most of my posts were gripes and complaints. There was stuff I liked about it too - as I say the first 20-30 minute space battle was brilliant, proper dogfights, genuine threat of "holy fuck, this is impossible" BUT most importantly coupled with genuine loss. I think to be honest after that start I just got deflated that the rest didn't live up to it.

Plus it's much easier to gripe


----------



## Lorca (Dec 14, 2017)

not long got back from watching this. honestly, i reckon its all getting a bit silly now! i fell asleep and missed some of it to be fair, but found it somehow unsatisfying  and the plot twists were all pretty obvious and the 3d didn't seem to add much either. fair enough i know i'm not the target demographic, but i came out wondering why i bothered tbh, though i quite liked some of what i percieved to be biblical or Nietzsche-ian allusions. also, i suppose i'm a bit cynical, couldn't help thinking those cute little furry creatures were only in the film so they can flog boatloads of 'em. its clear there's gonna be about 500 sequels, which is fair enough, looked like the other cinema goers (all young men) were really enjoying it so good luck to them (one bloke was conducting his own light saber fight in his seat.)


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not exactly a lot, is it? And do you think they were in Return of the Jedi? Really?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

It's just occurred to me, why are we covering everything in spoiler quotes when this is the spoiler thread!?


----------



## strung out (Dec 14, 2017)

It was a mess. Some really fantastic bits spoiled by stuff like the nonsense on the casino world and the tedious island training.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> That's not exactly a lot, is it? And do you think they were in Return of the Jedi? Really?


It's the climax of half the damn film! You've got the Resistance v First Order, and you've got the Kylo/Snoke v Rey/Luke thing. They spent a good amount of time there, and it featured many of the same beats and plot points as RotJ*.



*RotJ - usually shortened to "Jedi" (like "Empire" and "Hope"). Ep VIII has fucking ruined this  I'm sure this has been raked over in the build up, but I ignored all that so I'm raking over it again!


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> It's the climax of half the damn film! You've got the Resistance v First Order, and you've got the Kylo/Snoke v Rey/Luke thing. They spent a good amount of time there, and it featured many of the same beats and plot points as RotJ*.
> 
> 
> 
> *RotJ - usually shortened to "Jedi" (like "Empire" and "Hope"). Ep VIII has fucking ruined this  I'm sure this has been raked over in the build up, but I ignored all that so I'm raking over it again!



Ah, I see - to be honest I was reading on my phone and didn't pay much attention so my brain kept acting as if you were talking about ESB (but writing ROTJ instead) because that's what everyone what is saying  So sorry for that. But really that is hardly any similarities and, as you say, there were significant differences.

Thanks for the explanation about acronyms though. Someone called scifisam posting on the internet in 2017 on a Star Wars thread obviously wouldn't know something like that.

Great thread, all!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Thanks for the explanation about acronyms though. Someone called scifisam posting on the internet in 2017 on a Star Wars thread obviously wouldn't know something like that.


Sorry, that wasn't intended as an explanation aimed at you, more a musing aside regarding the confusion between Jedi and Jedi.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

Oh, and if you want to talk Empire - _blatant _Hoth analogues in the final seige. They even had to have someone say "oh, it's salt" as if to ram home "it's not snow, it's not Hoth, we're not on Hoth!!".


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Oh, and if you want to talk Empire - _blatant _Hoth analogues in the final seige. They even had to have someone say "oh, it's salt" as if to ram home "it's not snow, it's not Hoth, we're not on Hoth!!".



Or it was because it looked like bloody footsteps so the soldiers and the viewers would have wondered what was going on. It was one of the ways the film showed some of the practical trivialities of the First Order - like the ironing robots, which got a big laugh in the cinema I was in. Plus it explained why Kylo didn't slip and slide around and drew attention to the fact that Luke didn't leave the same footprints (I'd have to watch again to see if he left any at all).

But no, the negative explanation is the only possible one. Obviously having mentioned the name of the planet numerous times they were making the name clear again, that's all.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 14, 2017)

Spoiler



If you can destroy a ship by flying something at light-speed through it then could we just have programmed some pilot-less X-wings to fly at the death star(s). Might not of destroyed it but would caused more damage than shooting lazers at it.


----------



## chilango (Dec 14, 2017)

...and the visually arresting red dust trails. They were cool.


----------



## strung out (Dec 14, 2017)

You'd think that if flying something at light-speed directly at a fleet of ships would take most of it out, they'd have tried it with one of the two other ships that got destroyed before the flagship.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 14, 2017)

Indeliblelink said:


> If you can destroy a ship by flying something at light-speed through it then could we just have programmed some pilot-less X-wings to fly at the death star(s). Might not of destroyed it but would caused more damage than shooting lazers at it.


Thaaaaaaat is a fair point that I didn't think of. I thought that bit was pretty cool 


scifisam said:


> But no, the negative explanation is the only possible one. Obviously having mentioned the name of the planet numerous times they were making the name clear again, that's all.


Glad we agree


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 14, 2017)

Where does Snoke buy his dressing gowns from? I want to get one for my dad for Christmas.View attachment 123039


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Fuck me, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread having enjoyed the movie. I knew it - people on Urban only go to movies in order to moan about them - and I still forgot. Doh.




I think that's a bit unfair, cant you enjoy a movie and still pick out bits you didnt like ? it was a good movie but it did have its flaws


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> I think that's a bit unfair, cant you enjoy a movie and still pick out bits you didnt like ? it was a good movie but it did have its flaws



EVERY post here has been negative. Every. Single. One. Every opportunity to claim something was bad is seized upon even though (like the salt and sand thing) it's actually pretty cool. And bizarrely putting it on ignore isn't working - it keeps showing up anyway. I am out of here though because for me so much negativity is sucking the joy out of my experience with a film I really enjoyed


----------



## chilango (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> EVERY post here has been negative. Every. Single. One. Every opportunity to claim something was bad is seized upon even though (like the salt and sand thing) it's actually pretty cool. And bizarrely putting it on ignore isn't working - it keeps showing up anyway. I am out of here though because for me so much negativity is sucking the joy out of my experience with a film I really enjoyed





chilango said:


> First thoughts.
> 
> I really enjoyed it.
> 
> ...





chilango said:


> ...and the visually arresting red dust trails. They were cool.



My posts were positive, no?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> EVERY post here has been negative. Every. Single. One. Every opportunity to claim something was bad is seized upon even though (like the salt and sand thing) it's actually pretty cool. And bizarrely putting it on ignore isn't working - it keeps showing up anyway. I am out of here though because for me so much negativity is sucking the joy out of my experience with a film I really enjoyed


Wow , did you not see my good, ok and bad points ? Ive just had a chat with my cousin who is the same age ( 46 , we saw a new hope aged 6 together and have been full on fans since) , he loved it, but also listened to my criticism without flouncing off


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

chilango said:


> My posts were positive, no?



Some of it was, yeah. It's not that I want everyone to be really happy about the film, but there's no way you can have a discussion about, say, whether Kylo was telling the truth about Rey's parents, when the thread has basically gone to the dark side. There won't be anything fun or interesting in that conversation, just sniping. Most Urban film threads are like that and I new that, so I can only blame myself.


----------



## scifisam (Dec 14, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> Wow , did you not see my good, ok and bad points ? Ive just had a chat with my cousin who is the same age ( 46 , we saw a new hope aged 6 together and have been full on fans since) , he loved it, but also listened to my criticism without flouncing off



More bad points than good, though, right? Even the one other person who said they preferred to TFA then spent more time talking about the bad points. Do you not see how that can be a little bit of a dampener?

Anyway, all please stop quoting me and then maybe the damned thread'll stop showing up on my feed


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 14, 2017)

Thread said:
			
		

> *BEWARE SPOILERS YOU SHOULD*


*Subscribes*


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

scifisam said:


> More bad points than good, though, right? Even the one other person who said they preferred to TFA then spent more time talking about the bad points. Do you not see how that can be a little bit of a dampener?
> 
> Anyway, all please stop quoting me and then maybe the damned thread'll stop showing up on my feed


i thought you were leaving the thread ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2017)

I thought it was fucking superb. A couple of bum notes in the script but the whole thing felt like it had a point to it, which is worth enduring a few plot holes for. Daisy Ridey much improved acting-wise, Fisher and Hamill both better than they were in the original trilogy for my money. 

Killing off Snoke in act two of the second movie stops the whole thing becoming a retread of the old trilogy, and while there were riffs on bits of the other movies nothing was simply rehashed like pretty much the entire second half of Force Awakens was. 

I don't give a shit if Captain Phasma was a bit pointless, the baddies' chief henchman is not supposed to be a key part of the movie. 

I'm glad the sad bastards who did all those youtube videos about Snoke's identity and Rey's family have been basically left with nothing. These are supposedly the biggest Star Wars fans around and yet they've completely missed the point of what Star Wars is, ie a daft fantasy yarn that's fun and exciting to watch. This movie had me in genuine suspense for a lot of the time even though I could pretty much guess a lot of what was going to happen, and that's no mean trick. Force Awakens didn't do that, Rogue One didn't do that. 

Yeah anyway, it was great and you're all wrong.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2017)

I even detected some nods to Kurt Vonnegut in the script, and I never thought I'd say that about a Star Wars movie.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 14, 2017)

I dont think anyone here has said it was a bad film, just some including myself, have some issue. AlthoughIi think to be honest I'd over-hyped myself for it


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> I dont think anyone here has said it was a bad film, just some including myself, have some issue. AlthoughIi think to be honest I'd over-hyped myself for it



I went into this expecting it to be a bit shonky in places. It was much less shonky than I thought it would be and, to my great surprise, had actual coherent themes and proper character arcs and stuff in it to boot. That could all have been fucked off in favour of plot twists or 'surprise' revelations but it wasn't, Johnson decided to make a proper movie instead.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2017)

JJ is back for the next one so expect Return of the Jedi With Different People In It.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Dec 14, 2017)

About as good as TFA I thought, very enjoyable, I just switched off and went with the ride. Great action and quite a few laughs, the biggest one from me was for Luke 



Spoiler



brushing dirt off his shoulder



I went to watch it with my 11 year old boy, who thought it was "THE BEST FILM EVER MADE!!!". A hit with the target demographic then.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 15, 2017)

I have to say that, after some reflection, there is great deal about the film that I dislike hugely - to the extent that on more than one occasion during the viewing I found myself acknowledging the generational and money driven impetus behind the film (or franchise) - especially given the last few minutes that could be 'read' in a highly cynical way - and the fact that there might be a time to leave 'the Star Wars ride'. I'm booked again to see it on Monday so I will wait before reaching a final view.

In terms of acting - there is some _very_ clunky dialogue (even for Star Wars) - much of which is delivered by Ridley who remains - to my mind - desperately miscast. There are lines delivered in which you can almost imagine an out of shot member of the production staff holding cards with dialogue on. In some places I found it *that* bad. I think this ought to be remembered during the discussions of Mark Hamill's performance.  

The score isn't fantastic, there is very little new material of interest or impact, but if you think of SW soundtracks as 'motif' driven there are some nice musical moments that bring together themes from the prequels and the orignal trilogy. In this regard the film is clearly attempting to create a greater synthesis between the film soundscapes and it is here that it works.

Possibly the most beautiful shot of the film does not, significantly, feature any music.

One thing it did do is shift the perception of the prequels, and the continuity of artistic and narrative vision that George Lucas was able to maintain. Lucas has been the subject of criticism ever since the prequels, but he may well have been right all along. 

It also leads to a greater appreciation of 'Rogue One' and 'The Force Awakens'. 

Let us hope that 'Solo' works well. But Disney clearly like the vision and presentation of 'The Last Jedi' by Rian Johnson and at the moment, that worries me greatly.

*Still processing*


----------



## strung out (Dec 15, 2017)

It was great seeing Carrie Fisher's daughter in it


----------



## Gromit (Dec 15, 2017)

I went tonight expecting to see a new Star Wars film. 

What I got was basically Empire Strikes Back with some New Hope and RoTJ thrown in for good measure. 

They tried to disguise it in places by adding new elements but I don't feel I've seen new film. No new ideas just twists on old ones. 

If I hadn't seen Star Wars the first time around this would be a great film. A fantastic spectacle. But I have so it wasn't. 

I'm pretty much underwhelmed. 

I know it's a middle chapter like Empire was but Empire managed to rip the guts out of the audience leaving them salavating for the next instalment. 
This is more a "This page is intentionally left blank" page of a book. 

I'll watch the next one but I'm not in any way desperate to see how they'll conclude this trilogy.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2017)

mwgdrwg said:


> Luke
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2017)

Gromit said:


> No new ideas just twists on old ones.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2017)

Gromit said:


> I went tonight expecting to see a new Star Wars film.
> 
> What I got was basically Empire Strikes Back with some New Hope and RoTJ thrown in for good measure.
> 
> ...


Yes, all that really. On the other thread I was alluding to 'plot issues' and it was the above - including the inversion of the evil father producing saintly offspring from the earlier films.  I did enjoy it and will also watch the next one, but I like to get lost in a film. All those clunky plot re-runs break through that and remind you there was a group of people sat in a conference room making plot 'decisions'.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Dec 15, 2017)

Banned poster uses current poster as a conduit to post his view thusly:


I really wanted to enjoy this movie, and I convinced myself that I had until the reality set in. What a disappointment. A spit in the face to Star Wars fans. I'm now convinced that anyone who likes this movie is either still in shock or a Disney shill.

The bad:
Luke Skywalker dies
Leia space Poppins
Captain Phasma - she's back! For one whole scene!
Social commentary. I know hurting animals and selling weapons is bad, I don't need star wars to tell me.
Luke Skywalker dies
Del Toro - wasted chance
Luke was considering killing his own apprentice? Luke Skywalker? Fuck off!
The whole Finn and Rose subplot.
Admiral Ackbar dies
Snoke doesn't do anything and dies
Luke Skywalker dies
That ending. Dear God.
Porgs. In fact, all the creatures on that island
No lightsaber duel
Too many jokes
No questions from TFA were answered. 
Luke Skywalker dies

The Good:
Hamill and Fisher gave really good performances


Maybe I've been a tad unfair, and tbh I didn't rate TFA after the first viewing but it grew on me. Maybe this will, but I'm not in a rush to watch it again. Not for a couple of weeks.

Bring back George Lucas!


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 15, 2017)

I completely agree with you except I liked the porgs


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2017)

I'm now starting to understand why people didn't like this. It's because they're stupid and they weren't paying attention.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2017)

5t3IIa said:


> Banned poster uses current poster as a conduit to post his view thusly:
> 
> 
> I really wanted to enjoy this movie, and I convinced myself that I had until the reality set in. What a disappointment. A spit in the face to Star Wars fans. I'm now convinced that anyone who likes this movie is either still in shock or a Disney shill.
> ...


Shows how wrecked and asleep I was by 2.30 a.m., but I'd forgotten that Luke S had died.  Or has he?  At the very least he's going to appear as a ghostly yoda style apparition on some godforsaken planet when whatever she's called is having a dark teatime of the soul.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm now starting to understand why people didn't like this. It's because they're stupid and they weren't paying attention.


Yes, that's me covered. 

Actually, I did quite like it.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 15, 2017)

again I'l say I did enjoy it,I just found a lot not to like about it, these things can co-exist in the same space me thinks


----------



## Saints Alive (Dec 15, 2017)

mwgdrwg said:


> About as good as TFA I thought, very enjoyable, I just switched off and went with the ride. Great action and quite a few laughs, the biggest one from me was for Luke
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha, I went with my 9 and 11 year old boys and they both thought the whole thing was amazing too. AND, that was my youngest boy's favourite moment as well. He asked if he was allowed to do it at school and be all cryptic  He went on and on about it on the way home, impressed with how cool Luke was - even though it was some kind of weird astral projection.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Dec 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm now starting to understand why people didn't like this. It's because they're stupid and they weren't paying attention.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 15, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Shows how wrecked and asleep I was by 2.30 a.m., but I'd forgotten that Luke S had died.  Or has he?  At the very least he's going to appear as a ghostly yoda style apparition on some godforsaken planet when whatever she's called is having a dark teatime of the soul.


He transcends. Proven by the vanishing body. 

So yes he can now do a Yoda, Ben, Darth. 

Surprised Darth hasn't appeared to Kylo Ren and told him to get a grip and stop praying to him like some One Direction fan girl.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2017)

Gromit said:


> He transcends. Proven by the vanishing body.
> 
> .


 It's almost as if... there's rules about this sort of thing.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 15, 2017)

Gromit said:


> Surprised Darth hasn't appeared to Kylo Ren and told him to get a grip and stop praying to him like some One Direction fan girl.


That's been niggling in the back of my head since Awakens, tbh. Fucking sort it 'aht, Anakin


----------



## fucthest8 (Dec 15, 2017)

Well, I thought it was the best one since IV

Obviously, lots of it is bollocks. But's it's STAR WARS for fucksake, not Arrival.


----------



## fucthest8 (Dec 15, 2017)

scifisam said:


> EVERY post here has been negative. Every. Single. One. Every opportunity to claim something was bad is seized upon even though (like the salt and sand thing) it's actually pretty cool. And bizarrely putting it on ignore isn't working - it keeps showing up anyway. I am out of here though because for me so much negativity is sucking the joy out of my experience with a film I really enjoyed



Fuck 'em. I loved it


----------



## fucthest8 (Dec 15, 2017)

Out of interest, did anyone else go without having read a thing about it or watched any trailers at all? That's what I did. I'm wondering if it makes a difference.

Started doing it with games a couple of years back, now do it with films too. I find it makes everything better.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 15, 2017)

fucthest8 said:


> Out of interest, did anyone else go without having read a thing about it or watched any trailers at all? That's what I did. I'm wondering if it makes a difference.


Yeah, I did. To the point where I stuck my headphones on and closed my eyes when the trailer came on in the cinema 

If I know I'm going to see a film I avoid as much as possible about it; I really like discovering all these things in the context of the film/story.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 15, 2017)

fucthest8 said:


> Out of interest, did anyone else go without having read a thing about it or watched any trailers at all? That's what I did. I'm wondering if it makes a difference.
> 
> Started doing it with games a couple of years back, now do it with films too. I find it makes everything better.


I read nothing. 
Couldn't avoid seeing a trailer or two but remember nothing from the trailers other than Rey holding a light sabre out plaintively and Rey seemingly having a convo with Ren about not knowing her place in the world and him seemingly offering one.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 16, 2017)

5t3IIa said:


> Banned poster uses current poster as a conduit to post his view thusly:
> 
> 
> I really wanted to enjoy this movie, and I convinced myself that I had until the reality set in. What a disappointment. A spit in the face to Star Wars fans. I'm now convinced that anyone who likes this movie is either still in shock or a Disney shill.
> ...



Luke doesn't die.
Leia scene probably a low point in the film - the finest emotional manipulation
Luke doesn't die
Phasma - less a charachter and more of a toy with superficial gender politics attached
Hurting animals and selling weapons - Wampas and Tauntauns? Star Wars as less black / white bifurcation and more about grey
Luke doesn't die
Del Toro - meh but he he wasn't killed off so the character might return? Disability politics anyone?
Luke / Kylo - let's not bother to explain properly - a flashback is enough
Finn / Rose - Questions of sexuality can be explored in a highly racially constructed way
Admiral Ackbar killed - do you like your salmon fried or oven cooked?
Snoke - why bother explaining anything when we can just kill him off - backstory not required *insert personal flashback*
Luke doesn't die
Broom kid. The Force? That will be the next trilogy taken care of...did they like 'Turbo' and 'Tour de France'?
Porgs. Could you eat one? Let us do animal welfare - but Luke eats fish
Lightsabres - what happened to the green one?
Jokes - subjective
TFA - don't answer questions just create them - audiences will keep coming back for more
Luke doesn't die

Maybe add:

Yoda - learn from your mistakes - oh really? Tell me about Jedi hubris and why has Luke not apparently *spoken* to you or anyone else - maybe his Dad had a few things to say about poor parenting? How is Qui-Gonn getting on - and has he spoken to Obi-Wan recently?
Godspeed - first entrance in to Star Wars cinema - care to explain?
Luke - likely to be back in Episode 9 - ghosts can now interact with the physical realm. Jedi hate books.
Religion - just leave alone Disney
Dice - real or not real?
John Williams - Loves Mahler's Symphony No 9 - especially the 3rd movement


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Leia scene probably a low point in the film - the finest emotional manipulation



You know 'emotional manipulation' is basically the purpose of filmmaking right?

And you may be surprised to learn that they actually wrote and filmed Leia's scenes before Carrie Fisher died. So how they could have deliberately exploited her death for cheap pathos is unclear to me. If anything it's clear that they didn't change a note of Fisher's performance or her character's role in the story, as I feared they might for the sake of the series' ongoing continuity.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Finn / Rose - Questions of sexuality can be explored in a highly racially constructed way



Just fuck off with whatever the fuck this is supposed to mean.


----------



## Santino (Dec 16, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Godspeed - first entrance in to Star Wars cinema - care to explain?....
> Religion - just leave alone Disney


"Oh God, my uncle. How am I going to explain this?" - Episode IV

"Then I'll see you in hell!" - Episode V


----------



## Santino (Dec 16, 2017)

"Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes..." - Episode IV


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2017)

Popped into the Disney store just now. Officially so my daughter could have a browse, unofficially just to see if I’d be tempted by a fluffy Porg. I wasn’t.


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2017)

...though I’m sure a roaring trade will occur in golden dice for gentlemen of a certain age.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 16, 2017)

Ray crosses the galaxy, treks up half a mountain and hands the sacred light sabre to Master Luke.   He chucks it over his shoulder and down a cliff.  Classic...and insta meme.

"What do you want me to do?  Walk out and face the entire might of the First Order with a laser sword?"  Later on...he does this.

Ray stole the Jedi books, you see them at the end.

The scene where they 'phone' Min Sakul in the middle of a gun fight that she calls it 'union negotiations'.

For a Star Wars film it was very good...all of the new lot have been good.   Haven't been to see one in the cinema since ESB and eveyone enjoyed it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 17, 2017)

So,



Spoiler



apart from "what the hell", "godspeed", "bastard" it felt about right. Loved the secnery and we were spellbound by Skellig. The Yoda bit was so unexpected and it felt like proper muppet Yoda, not horrible CGI Yoda. And how great Rey turned out to be an ordinary person and Snoke was just a bad dude. Even if the casino world was a bit superflous, it was fun and yeah, fuck you arms dealers! Luke was justy brilliant and Leia uses the force for the first time and how cool was it? Highly entertaining and better than TFA. Is it better than Rogue, though? Hmmmm. Have to watch it again in the near future...


----------



## fucthest8 (Dec 17, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Luke doesn't die.
> Leia scene probably a low point in the film - the finest emotional manipulation
> Luke doesn't die
> Phasma - less a charachter and more of a toy with superficial gender politics attached
> ...



You don't really like Star Wars, do you?


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 17, 2017)

not going to watch this in the cinema. will wait for torrent. not a massive star wars fan, so have read all the spoilers.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 17, 2017)

donkyboy said:


> not going to watch this in the cinema. will wait for torrent. not a massive star wars fan, so have read all the spoilers.



This isn't the film you're looking for.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 17, 2017)

will still watch


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 17, 2017)

donkyboy said:


> will still watch



Why bother?


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 17, 2017)

Will watch


----------



## Gromit (Dec 17, 2017)

donkyboy said:


> Will watch


These aren't the films you're looking for. 

Move along.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 17, 2017)

donkyboy said:


> Will watch



Whatever. Boring conversation anyway.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 17, 2017)

still watching it


----------



## Gromit (Dec 17, 2017)

donkyboy said:


> still watching it


Move along.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 17, 2017)

still going to watch


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 17, 2017)

Spoiler



apart from "what the hell", "godspeed", "bastard" it felt about right.


[/QUOTE]

"Weeks" and "Bloody" were my  script jarrers. Franchise ruined 

But thats half its charm (see also: Bottom Eddie on Hux's bridge?)

I thought it was a huge triumph in originality. The pattern of this being the srs baddies triumph (to set up the rousing finale film) wasn't as pronounced as I was fearing.

I thought bringing life to Snoke was interesting. 

Luke's death was a bit "oh, he's not dead really, phew/ah, spoke too soon...".

Was it too funny/cute? Maybe. Tho I can't complain as I lolled at the Poe/Hux exchange at the start.

Literally did the full sharp intake of breath thing like an 11 year old when the broom moved. That was ace 

Lolling at Carrie Fisher/Mary Poppins point from earlier. Too true 

(Can we fuck it off with spoiler quotes too, please )


----------



## Santino (Dec 17, 2017)

I thought the jokes were excellent. Star Wars needs that type of humour to undercut the essential ridiculousness of it all, and to remind you that it's meant to be fun.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 17, 2017)

Santino said:


> I thought the jokes were excellent. Star Wars needs that type of humour to undercut the essential ridiculousness of it all, and to remind you that it's meant to be fun.


I agree. Some really funny moments. The delighted shock in the cinema when Luke tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder was great. "Page-turners they are not"

And my fave..._Oooh, a new ship. That's cool but a bit odd, looks quite like a steam iron...oh, wait_


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 17, 2017)

S☼I said:


> And my fave..._Oooh, a new ship. That's cool but a bit odd, looks quite like a steam iron...oh, wait_



That was utter cinema magic. The universality of the thought process, the casual cinema style millisecond pause before polite ripples of laughter...Absolutely loved it


----------



## emanymton (Dec 17, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I have to say that, after some reflection, there is great deal about the film that I dislike hugely - to the extent that on more than one occasion during the viewing I found myself acknowledging the generational and money driven impetus behind the film (or franchise) - especially given the last few minutes that could be 'read' in a highly cynical way - and the fact that there might be a time to leave 'the Star Wars ride'. I'm booked again to see it on Monday so I will wait before reaching a final view.
> 
> In terms of acting - there is some _very_ clunky dialogue (even for Star Wars) - much of which is delivered by Ridley who remains - to my mind - desperately miscast. There are lines delivered in which you can almost imagine an out of shot member of the production staff holding cards with dialogue on. In some places I found it *that* bad. I think this ought to be remembered during the discussions of Mark Hamill's performance.
> 
> ...


I saw it this morning, and really wasn't impressed at all. I agree on Ridley. Watching her In this and the force awakens I am always acutely aware that I am watching somebody acting. She was fine in murder on the Orient express, so yes maybe just miscast. Like she doesn't quite fit in the world.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 18, 2017)

Blink and you miss appearance of Michaela Coel.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 18, 2017)

And did Snoke tell Rey he liked her spunk or did I imagine that?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 18, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> And did Snoke tell Rey he liked her spunk or did I imagine that?


Yes, he did. Bloke next to me snorted.


----------



## Spod (Dec 18, 2017)

IMO all the three most recent SW films (TFA, Rogue 1, Last Jedi) can be summarised  by "great beginning, boring middle and decent ending".  Except perhaps Last Jedi as the ending wasnt as good as the others.


----------



## Omaplata (Dec 18, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Yes, he did. Bloke next to me snorted.



I'm ashamed to say I snorted also.  Not as much as during Alien Covenant when Fassbender said "I'll do the fingering" but still...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 18, 2017)

Nah....they blew it this time.

It was like Lord of the Rings meets Star Trek TNG.

Tried to do too much with too little, and much of it added nothing at all.

It was a hits package with all the crap songs on it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2017)

You're all still wrong.

And Rogue One was a bag of shite and all. A very pretty bag, but a shite-filled one nonetheless. Turgid, overblown rubbish based entirely around the notion that Hannibal Lecter managed to build a flaw into the death star but didn't think to just tell the good guys what it was. Apparently they can build spaceships that travel faster than light and weapons that blow up planets but the technology to send emails _with attachments_ is completely beyond them.

I mean if anything the file with the plans in it would have been smaller than the file with the hologram and voice recording. I dunno what sort of compression algorithm they use but I reckon a 3D hologram recording with sound has to be a bigger file than a single autocad document, however complex it may be.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 18, 2017)

pfft


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 18, 2017)

Love it when people base their enjoyment of Star Wars films on how realistic they are in relation to modern day Earth


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 18, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I saw it this morning, and really wasn't impressed at all. I agree on Ridley. Watching her In this and the force awakens I am always acutely aware that I am watching somebody acting. She was fine in murder on the Orient express, so yes maybe just miscast. Like she doesn't quite fit in the world.



Your last point is absolutely right - it made me think that her acting actually would sit better in the prequels.


----------



## 03gills (Dec 18, 2017)

Came out a bit overwhelmed, drained & conflicted, but still feeling it was OK, but the more I think about it the more disappointed I am. I shouldn't have to convince myself that I just watched a great movie & I found myself doing that after I left the cinema. 

This felt like Episode 8 & 9 rolled into one, just far too much crammed into one film. There are some great moments, the Yoda return was wonderful, with Frank Oz taking him back to his giggling, being-a-bit-of-a-jerk-to-Luke trolling OT self. The opening battle is great, & seeing Ade Edmonson as an imperial officer was a joy. Carrie was wonderful in this, but it was obviously bittersweet. 

The comedy was hit & miss, & the Luke-milking-space-tits scene was just plain fucking weird  

And yes, Lukes death (cynically placed at the very end, so as to avoid the bad publicity of walk outs) is a complete dick move, & leaves a bitter taste, however much they try & sweeten the pill. I think most fans (including me) were sort of dreading his fate in this one, but desperately hoping after the loss of Carrie, producers had maybe had a rethink. Just like with Han, you could feel the energy drain from the Cinema once Luke got Obi-Wan'd.

Very frustrating. I admire Disney for letting Rian Johnson make the film he wanted but I’m glad JJ Abrams is back for the next one. Luke will be force ghosting his ass all over Episode IX, guaranteed.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> You know 'emotional manipulation' is basically the purpose of filmmaking right?
> 
> And you may be surprised to learn that they actually wrote and filmed Leia's scenes before Carrie Fisher died. So how they could have deliberately exploited her death for cheap pathos is unclear to me. If anything it's clear that they didn't change a note of Fisher's performance or her character's role in the story, as I feared they might for the sake of the series' ongoing continuity.



Yes, I was aware. My point was in regard to the character's death, and a new found ability to transcend death (apparently) and remain in a physical form. It was a cheap trick out of step with anything suggested within the previous films.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 18, 2017)

03gills said:


> Came out a bit overwhelmed, drained & conflicted, but still feeling it was OK, but the more I think about it the more disappointed I am. I shouldn't have to convince myself that I just watched a great movie & I found myself doing that after I left the cinema.
> 
> This felt like Episode 8 & 9 rolled into one, just far too much crammed into one film. There are some great moments, the Yoda return was wonderful, with Frank Oz taking him back to his giggling, being-a-bit-of-a-jerk-to-Luke trolling OT self. The opening battle is great, & seeing Ade Edmonson as an imperial officer was a joy. Carrie was wonderful in this, but it was obviously bittersweet.
> 
> ...


On the topic of cameos...

Anyone spot the girl from Chewing Gum?

I thought James Cordon was an x-wing pilot that gets blown up but it was so fast that it probably wasn't him. Just my imagination.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 18, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Yes, I was aware. My point was in regard to the character's death, and a new found ability to transcend death (apparently) and remain in a physical form. It was a cheap trick out of step with anything suggested within the previous films.


I was more impressed with Leia's ability to open a door from the vacuum of space (no airlock) without anyone (or air) in the passage getting sucked out into space.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 18, 2017)

The details of the extra scenes to be made available on the Blu-Ray / DVD have been announced - including Luke's missing 'lesson three'.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 18, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> The details of the extra scenes to be made available on the Blu-Ray / DVD have been announced - including Luke's missing 'lesson three'.


How to cook the perfect Jedi pasta?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Dec 18, 2017)

Ted Striker said:


> But thats half its charm (see also: Bottom Eddie on Hux's bridge?)


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 18, 2017)

Gromit said:


> I thought James Cordon was an x-wing pilot that gets blown up but it was so fast that it probably wasn't him. Just my imagination.



Me Too! Threads like this makes me realise what little I remember from films!


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 19, 2017)

Gromit said:


> On the topic of cameos...
> 
> Anyone spot the girl from Chewing Gum?



ahem. post #98


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 19, 2017)

Reading some of the bah, humbug, joyless comments on the film... I reckons if the internet had been around in '77 Star Wars would not be a much loved as it is today.


----------



## chilango (Dec 19, 2017)

Indeed.

I rewatched Star Wars and Empire for the first time in aaages the other day. Was surprised at how “not very good” they were in so many ways.

But I enjoyed them.

Just as I enjoyed the Last Jedi (and Rogue One and The Force Awakens).


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 19, 2017)

What annoys the fuck out of me is those dissing it (not here, btw) because of strong female leads and diverse casting. Like, you haven't been watching Star Wars for all these years?


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 19, 2017)

Oooh, flashback...a good 10 seconds plunged into the depths of anxiety and peril FEARING THE initiation of a subplot where Chewbacca turns vegan? (The way he looked at the freshly cooked cutething?)


----------



## 03gills (Dec 19, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> What annoys the fuck out of me is those dissing it (not here, btw) because of strong female leads and diverse casting. Like, you haven't been watching Star Wars for all these years?



I've barely seen anyone critical of the film for those reasons.

In fact the only time i hear that is from critics who seem to be weirdly obsessed with painting objections to this film along political lines.

Or best of all, being told the reason some didn't appreciate this movie is because_ they just didn't pay enough attention in philosophy class. _


----------



## Gromit (Dec 19, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> What annoys the fuck out of me is those dissing it (not here, btw) because of strong female leads and diverse casting. Like, you haven't been watching Star Wars for all these years?


Diversity? In space?

By the way... we don't serve droids in here.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 19, 2017)

Sign the Petition

lol


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 19, 2017)

Y'know what, Luke in his X-Wing would have cheered me up....it was there, under the sea at Skellig Michael...


----------



## chilango (Dec 19, 2017)

FAO all you crying about Luke passing, or cheering ‘cos some little green ET muppet thing got a few lines or gone no about Lando or whatever...Kylo’s spelled it out.

* "Let the past die. Kill it."*


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 19, 2017)

just because some emo character in a film says something, doesnt make it true


----------



## 03gills (Dec 19, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Y'know what, Luke in his X-Wing would have cheered me up....it was there, under the sea at Skellig Michael...



If this was JJ's film, that's probably what would've happened. But TLJ feels like it was catered more towards discerning film critics, rather than fans. 

It feels with Johnson like he was so worried about subverting expectations & not doing what fans were expecting that he forgot he was actually making a Star Wars film that's supposed to be part of a cohesive trilogy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 19, 2017)

For the next one JJ Abrams is just going to crowdsource the plot by simply mashing together a load of half-baked ideas posted on message boards. Luke will come back from the dead, as will Carrie Fisher somehow, C-3PO will get a big bollywood dance scene, every line of dialogue will be 'I've got a bad feeling about this' and there'll be some kind of mass genocide of ewoks.

Star Wars 'fans' will look upon the atrocity they've created and still bitch about it, thus missing the point entirely.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 19, 2017)

So, after 24 hours of feeling a bit disappointed by the latest Star Wars film, I have taken a more relaxed view.

I feel that the film was mostly let down by trying to tell too many stories in one go. All stories that could have been better told across two films.

Some bits were great fun, and the Rey/Ben ruck with the red dudes was a fine enough action sequence.

Not sure about Snoke (he wears a bathrobe and hangs around young people that he has summoned to his room - Harvey Weinstein!!!!). I felt like I did about Maul after he was so prematurely wiped out. Why?

Liked that Ben has got to a point of saying 'yeah, I wanna fucking rule, so fuck all this old shit, I'm bringing my own game on'.

Liked Del Toro's character. Liked Rose. 

I love seeing Chewie, but maybe his story is over now, and C3P0 and R2D2. to shoe horn them in added nothing to this film. I wanna see those guys, but doing something of value and not just hanging around.

Luke - I don't believe Luke would consider killing a teenager in the dark, it undermined his story for me. I think losing a nephew to the dark side would have been enough for him to doubt himself and just take himself into exile. To make Luke the reason Ben tips over could have worked, but it didn't work the way they did it (for me)

The Salt planet stuff looked great. The space battles were fun.

Perhaps I am just getting too old for Star Wars now.....although I did get goose bumps seeing Luke's X-Wing, said out loud 'no way' when he fluttered off at the end, and was really pleased to see Leia centre stage (other than the Poppins bit).

Didn't get Laura Dern's character at all. Dressed like she'd been to Abigail's Party. Didn't she have a more practical outfit?

The jokes; I like jokes in Star Wars, but laughed less during this than any previous, and I think because the jokes were too rooted in our everyday, they felt too modern day and knowing. There was always something slapstick and innocent about Star Wars jokes. 

The gambling planet place adventure was just not very good, and seemed like a throwback to the prequels. Hated the Never-ending Story creatures and the kids, and all of it.....just a real distraction. Finn could have sat this one out. he didn't need a daft story invented to give him something to do.

We needed Lando. Where was Lando.

Plasma. Why? No need. Just have done with it. There's no character there. It's an attempt to make a Boba Fett and it has failed. Finish it.

Porgs. No. Sparkly xmas foxes. No. Irish Frog Nuns. Yeah, they made me laugh.

BB8 - R2lite

So, having had some time I can say I did enjoy it, I didn't enjoy it all, and not as much as Force Awakens, and a few less story lines (and not trying to tell everyone's story all at the same time) would have given the film space to breath.

It's Star Wars. I'm always gonna come back for more....


----------



## emanymton (Dec 19, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So, after 24 hours of feeling a bit disappointed by the latest Star Wars film, I have taken a more relaxed view.
> 
> I feel that the film was mostly let down by trying to tell too many stories in one go. All stories that could have been better told across two films.
> 
> ...


Agree with a lot of this, especially the humour. The odd but was funny (Luke casually chucking his lightsaber over his shoulder) but most of it felt forced and not rooted in the star Wars world. The opening 'comedy' scene probably turned me off the film from the start.

And that reminds me, they went all out with the world war 2 in space thing didn't they? How exactly do you drop bombs in space?


----------



## Gromit (Dec 19, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Agree with a lot of this, especially the humour. The odd but was funny (Luke casually chucking his lightsaber over his shoulder) but most of it felt forced and not rooted in the star Wars world. The opening 'comedy' scene probably turned me off the film from the start.
> 
> And that reminds me, they went all out with the world war 2 in space thing didn't they? How exactly do you drop bombs in space?


The inside of the ships have gravity. Provided by some magic generator I guess as they don’t use spin to generate it. 
Notice how they all walk around rather than float. 

The bombs inside were flung out by that gravity. Once free of the gravity they carry on through space via inertia in the direction they left the ship.


----------



## Rimbaud (Dec 20, 2017)

Saw it today and absolutely fucking loved it. Miles better than The Force Awakens.

Here is why:

 1- The movie subverted expectations at every point and never got predictable. There were really some great twists in the tale. TFA by contrast was Star Wars by numbers.

2- The relationship between Rey and Kylo was brilliant.

3- Had a sense of darkness and peril not seen in any Star Wars movie but Empire Strikes Back.

4- Kylo Ren has a depth and complexity not seen in previous villains, and you do root for him sometimes.

5- Changes what we know about the Force, and exposes the Jedi caste of the Old Republic as a hypocritical elite. This also redeems the prequel trilogy somewhat by changing the story of the Star Wars saga to be about a priestly caste who had to be destroyed by Vader to restore balance and democratise the force. This retroactively changes some of the shit elements of the prequel trilogy (tedious politics etc) into a meaningful critique of a decadent society on the verge of decline. It even makes the movie a comment on the disappointment of the prequels - the Old Republic was a disappointment to us, just as the Jedi were to Luke who was, like us, sold a glorified version given by Obi Wan. The entire movie is then about the rebirth of hope and the rebirth in a faith in the Jedi myth. It is really super meta and kind of incredible when you think about it.

6- Glimpse of the venal imperial elite on the casino world, and hints of a class struggle about to be waged by the slave kids against the so-called 'worst people in the universe', (the rich who profit from the wars) which is gonna be awesome.

7- Luke's island is well realised.

8- The scene with Kylo and Rey fighting the guards is amazing

9- The jokes were good, some nice laugh out loud moments

10- I enjoyed the salt world with the red mist, and the return of the AT-AT walkers


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 20, 2017)

The lightsabre fight in the throne room was great.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

I loved it, but as always with SW movies, they always rush through the inevitable aliens-in-a-bar sequence far too quickly for you to take in the glorious range of creatures. 
Shame they killed Luke off - he was the most interesting character in it. Rose was cool too though would have liked to have seen more character development of her - glad they didn't kill her - hope we see more of her in the next films. 
Not quite as good as Return Of The Jedi, but I would put it second out of the eight so far.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

why are some people using spoiler tags on a spoiler thread?


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

Dying from a strenuous and intense yoga session is not really a hero's death - it could have been a bit more dramatic than that


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 20, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Dying from a strenuous and intense yoga session is not really a hero's death - it could have been a bit more dramatic than that



I thought it was quite fitting. He came to the Skellig to die and achieved that. Also he projected himself across the galaxy, that must have taken a lot of effort from him.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> It's the climax of half the damn film! You've got the Resistance v First Order, and you've got the Kylo/Snoke v Rey/Luke thing. They spent a good amount of time there, and it featured many of the same beats and plot points as RotJ*.
> 
> 
> 
> *RotJ - usually shortened to "Jedi" (like "Empire" and "Hope"). Ep VIII has fucking ruined this  I'm sure this has been raked over in the build up, but I ignored all that so I'm raking over it again!


I wish people would just use the titles of the films, rather than acronyms. It's pretty lazy and can confuse people who aren't familiar with them


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Luke doesn't die.
> Leia scene probably a low point in the film - the finest emotional manipulation
> Luke doesn't die
> Phasma - less a charachter and more of a toy with superficial gender politics attached
> ...


Erm, Luke does die


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Luke doesn't die.
> Leia scene probably a low point in the film - the finest emotional manipulation
> Luke doesn't die
> Phasma - less a charachter and more of a toy with superficial gender politics attached
> ...


pseuds corner beckons


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

S☼I said:


> ]
> And my fave..._Oooh, a new ship. That's cool but a bit odd, looks quite like a steam iron...oh, wait_


I must have missed that - what happened?


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

One thing I noticed is how much they had Chewbacca sitting down in the film - Peter Mayhew is getting on, so it's nice of them to do this.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 20, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I must have missed that - what happened?



Iron shaped ship about to land... on some First Order uniforms... nice visual gag


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 20, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> One thing I noticed is how much they had Chewbacca sitting down in the film - Peter Mayhew is getting on, so it's nice of them to do this.



I think the role was played by Joonas Suatano in this episode with Mayhew as a consultant...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 20, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> I think the role was played by Joonas Suatano in this episode with Mayhew as a consultant...


This


----------



## Rimbaud (Dec 20, 2017)

Two articles which encapsulate why I liked this movie so much. First, it is the most left wing movie of the series and democratises the force:

Anti-empire, pro-activist … The Last Jedi is as left wing as Jeremy Corbyn | Toby Moses

*Anti-empire, pro-activist … The Last Jedi is as left wing as Jeremy Corbyn*

Toby Moses
The latest Star Wars film is an unlikely champion of the grassroots – and it’s not even subtle about it 

_What have The Last Jedi and Jeremy Corbyn got in common? There’s the penchant for silly hats, and a love of cuddly critters – but that goes for any of the series’ previous entries too. No, what the new Star Wars film and the Labour leader really have in common is that they’re both as red as Kylo Ren’s lightsaber.

Whether you’re a fan of the latest instalment or not – it’s impossible to deny that it’s a revolutionary entry into Star Wars canon. And not just because it’s the first of the series to pass the Bechdel test. If its predecessor, A Force Awakens, shook things up with a female lead, a black co-star and a Latin-American heartthrob, this film takes it to a whole new level of progressive fantasy, taking aim at capitalism, the Trump regime, and the very notion of heroes.

There’s a delicious irony to the fact that director Rian Johnson, funded by corporate behemoth Disney, has used this most capitalistic, money-grabbing of platforms to plant the seeds of anti-fascist, anti-capitalist egalitarianism in the minds of the world’s young. It’s not a subtle message, either. There’s a whole sequence set in an intergalactic casino where the only thing of any import we learn is about the evils of unfettered capitalism – only the wicked get rich, and it’s by selling arms to both sides. Ring any bells?

The shape of our stories has ramifications far beyond the boundaries of their fictional universes. Disney must take its share of the blame for the princess obsession, just as Star Wars feeds into our innate desire for hero narratives. But not any more. The Last Jedi has a clear message: anybody can be a hero, so there’s no excuse not to get involved in the fight. The very last shot of the film (again, spoiler alert) has a young boy, enslaved by that malevolent casino, casually using the force to whisk a broom into his hand before staring up at the stars. It’s a direct echo of Luke Skywalker gazing up at the dual sunset in the 1977 original – but unless the boy turns out to be a long lost clone of Darth Vader, it’s a radical shift.

No longer do the Skywalker clan hold the hopes of the galaxy in their perpetually unreliable grip. Now it’s down to all of us, even the most lowly stable boy, to rise up against the evil empire. And who heads up that evil empire? A white man of course. But he’s also the spawn of the galaxy’s most famous family, and the son of a princess. It’s the danger of over-privilege writ large.

If the original trilogy was about waiting for a hero to rescue the world from a tyrannical, authoritarian regime, and the prequels were an (albeit hamfisted) attempt to examine how democracy can easily mutate in to dictatorship, then this new trilogy had looked set to simply repeat what came before. After Episode VII all the questions were about the parentage of our new hero, Rey. She’s a Skywalker, surely? Or a least a Kenobi. Perhaps there’s a little Yoda in there somewhere?

But no. And by shrugging off that mystery, and revealing her parents as galactic wastrels of no import, who sold her off for booze money, Johnson’s entry has rooted the future of the series in a populist framework of how to defeat tyranny through community. Not only are dynasties over, they’re actively dangerous. After all, this isn’t the first of the Skywalker clan to wreak death and destruction, and the last of that bloodline has become, apparently, an irredeemable villain.

In the age of Trump, Brexit and general hopelessness, this is something we need to hear more than ever – waiting around for a hero to fix the world simply won’t do. We all have the responsibility, and capability, to improve things – no matter where we are from. The only way the resistance will win this time is if we work together and recognise the talents and potential of all people.

It’s a message we need on both sides of the Atlantic. Donald Trump is an obvious villain, embarking upon a journey of obviously fascistic behaviour. The wave of mass protests already seems to have woken liberal America from any complacency that might have existed before the 2016 election. But it’s a lesson we need in the UK too – we can’t rely on somebody to rescue us from this Conservative government if we won’t put the effort in ourselves. Too much of the Labour party has been stuck in the thinking of the 70s original, waiting for A New Hope to lead them in to the light – whether it’s David Miliband to the right, or Jez to the left. But it’s in the grassroots that the future for both Labour and Star Warslies. We can all be the hero, we just have to believe we can be the change we want to see in this world, as well as a galaxy far, far away.

No matter what we’ve been told, in countless hero narratives over the centuries, we’re all capable of weighing in and playing our part. Whatever you may think of the Last Jedi, that’s a good message to send kids home with for Christmas.

• Toby Moses is assistant editor on Guardian Opinion[/quote]_


----------



## Rimbaud (Dec 20, 2017)

And secondly, it fixes the prequels by fitting them into a wider arc.

'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Redeems the Prequels



> *'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Redeems the Prequels*
> 
> *Rian Johnson and Luke Skywalker have given the Jedi a story arc that makes sense.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 20, 2017)

That's all fine......but doesn't explain the never ending story creatures turning up...


----------



## YouSir (Dec 20, 2017)

Saw it last night and enjoyed it, although it felt a bit crowded plot wise and the jokes fell a bit flat for me. Did strike me though that the whole series is more or less the Skywalker/Organa/Solo family fucking things up for the entire universe. Final film, if one ever comes, should just be a load of pissed of nerf herders and droid maintenance workers storming some Jedi palace and purging the lot of them, aristo style.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 20, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> pseuds corner beckons


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 20, 2017)

Rimbaud said:


> Two articles which encapsulate why I liked this movie so much. First, it is the most left wing movie of the series and democratises the force:
> 
> Anti-empire, pro-activist … The Last Jedi is as left wing as Jeremy Corbyn | Toby Moses
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

No. No. No.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

No. No. No.[/QUOTE]
It's just as ridiculous as your pontifications


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 20, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> No. No. No.


It's just as ridiculous as your pontifications[/QUOTE]

I love your hard on for me. It is quite touching.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 20, 2017)

Ew.


----------



## The Octagon (Dec 20, 2017)

Just back from seeing it (and nearly murdering the two girls in the same row who had their phones out a majority of the time and kept getting up to chat to their mates in the front row ).

Best one since Empire IMO, maybe even better but needs a rewatch, a lot going on.

Good development of the newer cast (although Ridley is still the weakest actor, especially when sharing the screen with Adam Driver), but the film belonged to Hamill and Fisher and they knocked it out of the park 

Laura Dern and Benicio Del Toro were great as always too, welcome additions (but dropping the casino story thread and picking up Del Toro a different way might have been better). 

Nice moment at the end with Luke's legend inspiring the next generation (and did I imagine the kid force pulling the broom?).

Shame JJ is back for the next one, he'll likely play it safe whereas Rian Johnson made a proper film, not just an homage. Looking forward now to his new trilogy, separated from the restrictions of the Skywalkers, etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2017)

FAO Beats & Pieces, Nanker Phelge, 03gills etc.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 21, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> FAO Beats & Pieces, Nanker Phelge, 03gills etc.



The fonts are all wrong


----------



## N_igma (Dec 21, 2017)

So Luke has to go to Dagobah and go through a all that training with Yoda to be able to master the force yet Rey can go toe to toe with Kylo Ren and literally move mountains with fuck all training? Yeh good one.


----------



## The Octagon (Dec 21, 2017)

N_igma said:


> So Luke has to go to Dagobah and go through a all that training with Yoda to be able to master the force yet Rey can go toe to toe with Kylo Ren and literally move mountains with fuck all training? Yeh good one.



Luke literally says "I've only seen this strength before once" meaning Ben Solo, and Luke's met yoda and obi wan, so why not? Why shouldn't Rey be more powerful?

I don't get this complaint (either in Force Awakens or Last Jedi).


----------



## 03gills (Dec 21, 2017)

Why can't people just accept that others might have a different opinion on this film? I absolutely adored The Force Awakens but thought this was a crushing disappointment. 

I'm glad people liked it, but the opinions of those who didn't are just as valid as anyone else's. I've seen far too much of this dismissive attitude from all over t'internet from both sides. 

You liked the film? Great. You didn't? Also great.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 21, 2017)

The Octagon said:


> Just back from seeing it (and nearly murdering the two girls in the same row who had their phones out a majority of the time and kept getting up to chat to their mates in the front row


This reason is why I rarely go to the pictures now. In Croydon this behaviour is particularly bad, and I sit there fizzing with rage. 
If it's a film i really want to see I'll either go to Beckenham or Wimbledon on the tram, or go to an AM showing, where the inconsiderate prats are still in bed.

Or wait for it on kodi of course


----------



## The Octagon (Dec 21, 2017)

03gills said:


> Why can't people just accept that others might have a different opinion on this film? I absolutely adored The Force Awakens but thought this was a crushing disappointment.
> 
> I'm glad people liked it, but the opinions of those who didn't are just as valid as anyone else's. I've seen far too much of this dismissive attitude from all over t'internet from both sides.
> 
> You liked the film? Great. You didn't? Also great.



So we can't discuss differing perspectives on common complaints at all? What's the point of that? It's not personal.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 21, 2017)

03gills said:


> Why can't people just accept that others might have a different opinion


Ah. Hello, step this way. Welcome to the internet. Your induction and orientation will begin soon.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Dec 22, 2017)

D'wards said:


> This reason is why I rarely go to the pictures now. In Croydon this behaviour is particularly bad, and I sit there fizzing with rage.
> If it's a film i really want to see I'll either go to Beckenham or Wimbledon on the tram, or go to an AM showing, where the inconsiderate prats are still in bed.
> 
> Or wait for it on kodi of course



This. On more than one occasion recently. The last time it happened it got to the point of very nearly picking someone up and throwing them out. Why go to see a film if you are going to talk loudly throughout the screening?!



On a separate note I did go to see the film again, and I still feel the same.


----------



## Voley (Dec 22, 2017)

I thought it was great. I was a kid again for two hours. Luke's bit at the end was ace. Could quite happily watch it again right now.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 22, 2017)

The Octagon said:


> Luke literally says "I've only seen this strength before once" meaning Ben Solo, and Luke's met yoda and obi wan, so why not? Why shouldn't Rey be more powerful?
> 
> I don't get this complaint (either in Force Awakens or Last Jedi).



I imagine different force sensitive (or whatever the terminology is) folk have varying degrees of power and ability to pick it up.

Rey is more powerful because... she just is. Just like Anakin was one of the most powerful. Until now, perhaps.


----------



## Santino (Dec 22, 2017)

Rey has an exceptionally high midichlorian count.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

Santino said:


> Rey has an exceptionally high midichlorian count.



She stinks like a swimming pool


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> FAO Beats & Pieces, Nanker Phelge, 03gills etc.



Your life must be very satisfying if you just accept and enjoy everything for what it is, despite anything that might be considered flawed or just plain shit.

I suppose if you can forgive Jar Jar Binks then you can swallow pretty much anything.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 22, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Your life must be very satisfying if you just accept and enjoy everything for what it is, despite anything that might be considered flawed or just plain shit.



This is probably supposed to be sarcasm but everything you've said here is true.


----------



## N_igma (Dec 22, 2017)

The Octagon said:


> Luke literally says "I've only seen this strength before once" meaning Ben Solo, and Luke's met yoda and obi wan, so why not? Why shouldn't Rey be more powerful?
> 
> I don't get this complaint (either in Force Awakens or Last Jedi).



Yeh that was clearly put in by the writers who were just too lazy to explain why she has that ability. Which would be all well and good if she didn’t actually go to Luke to do her training so what was that all about? The only way she could have that ability is if she turned out to be Kylo’s twin sister which would make some sort of sense but no she isn’t according to Kylo. If they backtrack and it turns out in the next film that she is his twin then that’s just a kick in the face for everyone why the need to lie? 

Then there’s the child slave at the end who uses the force to lift a broom? Is he a Jedi? How come he can use the force? You can’t just spend 7 films bigging up the force then turn around and say anyone can actually use it when they can’t. I think it’s a fair complaint in all honesty and needs to be explained in the next episode.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

Episode IX: Rise of the Stablehands


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 22, 2017)

I feared for a second he was going to make the brush sweep the floor for him in a badly judged nod to Fantasia.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 22, 2017)

The Octagon said:


> Luke literally says "I've only seen this strength before once" meaning Ben Solo, and Luke's met yoda and obi wan, so why not? Why shouldn't Rey be more powerful?
> 
> I don't get this complaint (either in Force Awakens or Last Jedi).


"*Raw *strength", as in, untrained.

And Luke didn't really see his own raw strength, did he?

Aaaaaaaaaaand, Ben Solo was trained. Rey meets him _after_ his training, before any of her own.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Dec 22, 2017)

N_igma said:


> Then there’s the child slave at the end who uses the force to lift a broom?


Jfc I completely missed that. Did he??


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 22, 2017)

Yes. Was quite quick. He held his hand out about a foot from the broom and it went into his hand. Very casual.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 22, 2017)

The film was good fun, and had both pros and cons, most of which have been covered here. But the one thing I'm going to be really grumpy about is the length of it plus the flabbiness of the plot. It's a silly/fun fantastical space adventure - there's no need to complicate these things and there's certainly no need to drag it out to two and half hours. Even commercially it seems odd - that extra half hour must have cost $20m plus to film, and everyone would have paid the same money to see a 2h film. It annoys me because it's such a trend with lightweight Hollywood films at the moment. It was the main problem with the Bladerunner sequel, but even superhero or Harry Potter films ffs are being dragged way past the two hour mark. I think when people watch Hollywood stuff from this era in thirty years time they will remark on the incredibly poor discipline in writing them and wonder why anyone thought a piece of fluff needed subplots and two and a half hours plus.

ETA: And it annoys me because it makes them worse films. I think they could be much more entertaining with a tight plot that took less than two hours. More is not better.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

....and poor old Admiral Ackbar....

You have to shed a coupla drops dontcha....


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 22, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ....and poor old Admiral Ackbar....
> 
> You have to shed a coupla drops dontcha....


No heroic demise for yon Calamari


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

N_igma said:


> So Luke has to go to Dagobah and go through a all that training with Yoda to be able to master the force yet Rey can go toe to toe with Kylo Ren and literally move mountains with fuck all training? Yeh good one.



Luke was too old to start the training and learned implausibly quickly too.

A bit too long, but I loved it.
Was just reading about how some of the fanbase was up in arms about the plot, which is a nice touch considering the themes in the film.


----------



## chilango (Dec 22, 2017)

I’m liking the increasing idea that the force can be used by anyone regardless of bloodline or indoctrination. 

Neither Jedi nor Sith but Intergalactic Socialism!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> The film was good fun, and had both pros and cons, most of which have been covered here. But the one thing I'm going to be really grumpy about is the length of it plus the flabbiness of the plot. It's a silly/fun fantastical space adventure - there's no need to complicate these things and there's certainly no need to drag it out to two and half hours. Even commercially it seems odd - that extra half hour must have cost $20m plus to film, and everyone would have paid the same money to see a 2h film. It annoys me because it's such a trend with lightweight Hollywood films at the moment. It was the main problem with the Bladerunner sequel, but even superhero or Harry Potter films ffs are being dragged way past the two hour mark. I think when people watch Hollywood stuff from this era in thirty years time they will remark on the incredibly poor discipline in writing them and wonder why anyone thought a piece of fluff needed subplots and two and a half hours plus.
> 
> ETA: And it annoys me because it makes them worse films. I think they could be much more entertaining with a tight plot that took less than two hours. More is not better.



The length wasn't an issue for. It was rushing through too many stories. Trying to tell Rey, Luke, Kylo, Leia, Finn, Poe stories and give space to introduce at least 3 new characters, some new creatures, and shoe horn in a bit of Chewie, R2, Yoda, C3PO was all too much. Even 2.5hrs wasn't enough do any of them any justice.

......and I dont think any of those strands wouldn't have all been enjoyable, just not all needed at once.

Except the space horse chase, which was just rubbish.....and the orphans....I hope Kylo sweeps in and kills them all in the next film.

We don't need a Jedi micky mouse club rising up to conquer the dark side and then going on to be intergalatic saturday morning superstars.....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

chilango said:


> I’m liking the increasing idea that the force can be used by anyone regardless of bloodline or indoctrination.
> 
> Neither Jedi nor Sith but Intergalactic Socialism!



Yes. I like that Rey might just be a nobody.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 22, 2017)

8ball said:


> Luke was too old to start the training and learned implausibly quickly too.


_Anakin_ was too old, iirc.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

chilango said:


> I’m liking the increasing idea that the force can be used by anyone regardless of bloodline or indoctrination.



I think that was always the case tbf.  Was normal for some very 'strong in the Force' types to be turned away by the Jedi due to doctrinal reasons.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Yes. I like that Rey might just be a nobody.



Me too.  I was kind of cringing at the imminent lost aristocratic geneaology thing, but that made it better.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

S☼I said:


> _Anakin_ was too old, iirc.



Indeed.  Though this was Jedi training rather than strictly 'Force' stuff.

Bit like being a Shao-lin monk as opposed to learning Kung Fu.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 22, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The length wasn't an issue for. It was rushing through too many stories.



But the length is there because they were trying to do too many stories. When you think about good actiony films (like Diehard or even the more complex Bourne Identity), they have ONE plot. That is the correct number of plots for an action adventure imo, because they should be tight and high-adrenalin, not wandering around all over the place. And the first two Star Wars films managed to achieve their mammoth success without lots of little subplots. This tendency is dire.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> But the length is there because they were trying to do too many stories. When you think about good actiony films (like Diehard or even the more complex Bourne Identity), they have ONE plot. That is the correct number of plots for an action adventure imo, because they should be tight and high-adrenalin, not wandering around all over the place. And the first two Star Wars films managed to achieve their mammoth success without lots of little subplots. This tendency is dire.



Agree with too long and trying to cram a bit too much in.
Wonder how it will hold up to future watchings, though.


----------



## fucthest8 (Dec 22, 2017)

8ball said:


> Agree with too long and trying to cram a bit too much in.



Disagree entirely. Opinions eh? What are they like again?

E2A: I didn't notice the length at all. Was really surprised to discover I'd been in the cinema that long.


----------



## Santino (Dec 22, 2017)

On the use of the Force by non-trained people - it's been implicit in the films for a long time that some people have natural (innate?) sensitivity to the Force and can use it even unconsciously. Young Anakin has supernaturally fast reflexes before he has training. If you want to get into it, you could probably argue that Han is also unconsciously strong with the Force, although in his case it appears like just good luck.


----------



## N_igma (Dec 22, 2017)

8ball said:


> Luke was too old to start the training and learned implausibly quickly too.



But we know Luke is special from his backstory there’s exposition there. Not with Rey the child of two scavengers from Jakku desert? That’s not Skywalker material there as I said the only thing that could tie it all together is if it turns out she is Kylo’s sister but why lie to us if that is the case?


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

N_igma said:


> But we know Luke is special from his backstory there’s exposition there. Not with Rey the child of two scavengers from Jakku desert? That’s not Skywalker material there as I said the only thing that could tie it all together is if it turns out she is Kylo’s sister but why lie to us if that is the case?



The whole point was to break with the 'aristocratic blood' assumption.


----------



## N_igma (Dec 22, 2017)

8ball said:


> The whole point was to break with the 'aristocratic blood' assumption.



That would create more issues than it solves imo. A neat idea but just doesn’t seem right to me. Meh see how it plays out in the next episode.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 22, 2017)

N_igma said:


> That would create more issues than it solves imo.



Not really.  Yoda wasn't from an aristo lineage, and Vader's parentage was frankly murky.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> But the length is there because they were trying to do too many stories. When you think about good actiony films (like Diehard or even the more complex Bourne Identity), they have ONE plot. That is the correct number of plots for an action adventure imo, because they should be tight and high-adrenalin, not wandering around all over the place. And the first two Star Wars films managed to achieve their mammoth success without lots of little subplots. This tendency is dire.



I thought I was agreeing wih you.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 22, 2017)

N_igma said:


> That would create more issues than it solves imo. A neat idea but just doesn’t seem right to me. Meh see how it plays out in the next episode.



I think it's fair to say that George Lucas was fibbing when he claimed (in my RotJ commerative mag) that he had 9 films planned out from the start....


----------



## Santino (Dec 22, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think it's fair to say that George Lucas was fibbing when he claimed (in my RotJ commerative mag) that he had 9 films planned out from the start....


He did write a treatment for Episodes 7-9 but Disney decided not to use them.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 22, 2017)

Just  seen it... agree with overlong, casino bit rather crap (gsv pointed out that scifi casino scenes inevitably tacky as fuck). Gsv also suggested that actually, it would be good to just end the story with this one, though obviously they won't

 But great moments of awesome from a few characters, some decent, proper emotional stuff and I like the suggestion that actually perhaps the Jedi, as we know them at least, are should come to an end. They'd better not ruin it by making Rey's parents anyone. 

Was a bit emotional every time Carrie came on screen.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 22, 2017)

Santino said:


> On the use of the Force by non-trained people - it's been implicit in the films for a long time that some people have natural (innate?) sensitivity to the Force and can use it even unconsciously.


Ok, good. I've been slightly surprised by how surprised other people have been by this development. I always thought the implication was anyone can have force-sensitivity, just like anyone can have good hand/eye co-ordination, and from there it's about training.


----------



## blossie33 (Dec 24, 2017)

Went to see it this afternoon, I'm quite easy to please so I enjoyed it.
I somehow expected a very unexpected twist for the ending but didn't think there was.

Did anyone else think that Yoda's face didn't look quite the same as the original film '

I love Adam Driver ( he was great in Patterson) so I do find it hard to believe he's a real Baddie  and the sad part was loosing Carrie Fisher in real life RIP Leia


----------



## PursuedByBears (Dec 24, 2017)

Saw it today. On the whole I liked it but agree that it was too long and the whole casino planet bit could have been cut.  I'll rewatch it when it's out on torrents.


----------



## A380 (Dec 26, 2017)

I thought it was ok. But could have done with losing some of the sub plots. 

I felt is was better than TFA but not as good as Rouge One.

Glad I saw it at the cinema. Anyone with any interest in the franchise should see it on the big screen.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 26, 2017)

A380 said:


> I thought it was ok. But could have done with losing some of the sub plots.
> 
> I felt is was better than TFA but not as good as Rouge One.
> 
> Glad I saw it at the cinema. Anyone with any interest in the franchise should see it on the big screen.


I think the quality of sound in the modern cinema certainly added to the film, for me.   And the volume.

The fact that people are quibbling over which of the recent three is best (Rogue One is the answer, obviously) shows how well they've been received.   Making a shitload of money as well.

All eyes on the finale.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 27, 2017)

N_igma said:


> That’s not Skywalker material there as I said the only thing that could tie it all together is if it turns out she is Kylo’s sister but why lie to us if that is the case?


It’s not like Star Wars to tell lies about who someone’s father was...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 27, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> Rogue One is the answer, obviously



The answer to the question 'what do you get if you polish a turd?' maybe.


----------



## marshall (Dec 27, 2017)

Enjoyed it, only one thing bugged me; there were FOUR leader dots at the end of the opening scene-setting words that disappear into the Galaxy. Three, always three leader dots, not two, not four, it should always be three.


----------



## starfish (Dec 28, 2017)

Saw it today. First Star Wars film ive seen in a cinema since an original series triple bill in 1983 aged 13. Ive seen the prequels & ep VII & Rogue One but i was unprepared for the emotional ride. I cried 4 times during this.


----------



## starfish (Dec 28, 2017)

I thought it was overlong, had several scenes that should have been left out & the director didnt quite know when or how to finish the film but also thought it was fantastic, had me gripped & excited & for a few moments i felt i was a kid again. The fact my dad was sitting to my right may also have contributed as he was enjoying it too.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 28, 2017)

marshall said:


> Enjoyed it, only one thing bugged me; there were FOUR leader dots at the end of the opening scene-setting words that disappear into the Galaxy. Three, always three leader dots, not two, not four, it should always be three.


This is incorrect. Four is the norm but Return of the Jedi only had 3.


----------



## marshall (Dec 28, 2017)

That's interesting, Maltin, thanks.

When I say it should always be three leader dots, I wasn't talking about SW movies specifically, but grammar/best practice in general. 

Surprised they've only ever managed to get it right once.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 28, 2017)

marshall said:


> That's interesting, Maltin, thanks.
> 
> When I say it should always be three leader dots, I wasn't talking about SW movies specifically, but grammar/best practice in general.
> 
> Surprised they've only ever managed to get it right once.


Perhaps the grammar rules were different a long time ago in a galaxy, far, far, away....


----------



## Gromit (Dec 28, 2017)

Maltin said:


> Perhaps the grammar rules were different a long time ago in a galaxy, far, far, away....


It’s just that you need extra dots to fill space (the vast emptiness of).


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 28, 2017)

Maltin said:


> Perhaps the grammar rules were different a long time ago in a galaxy, far, far, away....


It wasn't them telling the story though, was it?

They didn't know they were long ago and far away.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 28, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> It wasn't them telling the story though, was it?
> 
> They didn't know they were long ago and far away.


One of them who would have traveled for ages to come tell us about it. How else would we know about it?


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 28, 2017)

Gromit said:


> One of them who would have traveled for ages to come tell us about it. How else would we know about it?


How does anyone know anything?

We googled it.


----------



## T & P (Jan 1, 2018)

Finally watched it so i’m able to join this thread. I thought it was bloody great, and so much better than TFA.

Not perfect though, and some plot holes became apparent to my mind. Mostly the rather absurd Wacky Races spaceship chase at low speed. What prevented any one of the First Order ships from breaking formation, overtaking the convoy and facing the Resistance flagship head-on to finish it off, rather than chasing it for 18 hours like fools?

Still, very pleased overall, and can’t wait to watch it again.


----------



## cybershot (Jan 1, 2018)

I enjoyed it, except for maybe the last 30 minutes which just felt like an after thought, and would actually have been a better way to start the next film rather than how to end one.

This film did make it quite clear this story could just go on forever, so I do wonder how long it will take before I get bored, just as I am with most of the Marvel stuff now. I honestly do feel, they will milk this franchise for the next 10-20 years, and like the comic book stuff, if people keep going to see them, they will keep making them.

Almost every trailer beforehand was for another comic book/superhero film, and they all just looked shite, so if people can stop going to see them, that would be great.


----------



## xenon (Jan 1, 2018)

Saw this on Thursday and read this thread.

Negative stuff first. Yes the Princess Leia space flying was risible. I subsequently suspected they'd kill off the character, as I thought she was on the medical frigget that got destroyed.

Agreeing with some others, Luke apparently going to murder his nephew struck a wrong note. I couldn't buy that Luke would do that. Maybe there's more to come on this.

Snoke was a bit of a disappointment in the end. That whole scene was quite predictable as soon as Rae entered the thrown room. She obviously wasn't going to die. And spunk FFS, don't say that. You're meant to be sinister cloke wearing space wizard, not Stonefish from fucking neighbours.

Would have been nice to see more of the cacino, interactions  and the band playing the Cantina tune in the background. The chase thing was daft. 

Why didn't Luke just turn up and fight Kylo if it was basically going to burn him out and kill him anyway. I mean, given that he was apparently up for murdering him in cold blood years earlier. 

It was a bit long, I needed a piss from about half way through though so that coloured my temporal awareness. 

The good stuff.

Aside all that, over all, I did like it. The opening scenes were great, showing the cost of war to the resistance. Kylo is an interesting villan. A dangerous unpredictable fuckup. I quite liked the rug being pulled away re the code breaker sub plot. Suspect we'll see him again. And yeah, agreed, I hope it turns out Rae's parents were basically nobodies. That is more interesting than she being another Skywalker relative.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 1, 2018)

xenon said:


> You're meant to be sinister cloke wearing space wizard, not Stonefish from fucking neighbours.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 2, 2018)

I loved it from start to finish. Got nothing bad to say about it. The silent scene was excellent. It felt like all the air had been sucked out of the room.


----------



## ginger_syn (Jan 3, 2018)

I found it rather boring gave up after an hour and four minutes and wandered off , which i was suprised at as i liked force awakens and rogue one. A definite thumbs down for this, I liked justice league better and should have gone to see jumanji instead.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 3, 2018)

cybershot said:


> I enjoyed it, except for maybe the last 30 minutes which just felt like an after thought, and would actually have been a better way to start the next film rather than how to end one.
> 
> This film did make it quite clear this story could just go on forever, so I do wonder how long it will take before I get bored, just as I am with most of the Marvel stuff now. I honestly do feel, they will milk this franchise for the next 10-20 years, and like the comic book stuff, if people keep going to see them, they will keep making them.
> 
> Almost every trailer beforehand was for another comic book/superhero film, and they all just looked shite, so if people can stop going to see them, that would be great.



It's just another genre, though. Westerns, gangster movies all had their peaks and troughs in popularity. If SW moves beyond the confines of the time period, location and family saga it could easily survive.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 3, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> It's just another genre, though. Westerns, gangster movies all had their peaks and troughs in popularity. If SW moves beyond the confines of the time period, location and family saga it could easily survive.


Star Wars is multi genre. George stole bits a bobs from everywhere and slung it together in a riotous tapestry that somehow works. 

It’s a Space Western, Space Swashbuckler, Space Fantasy, Space War Film and Space Rom Com. 

... to name but a few.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 3, 2018)

ruffneck23 said:


> yes, right you are


Are you saying that as Yoda, or as a chirpy cockney chap?


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 3, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> Random thoughts:
> 
> Why did Laura Dern not tell anyone her plan? What was the point in the failed mutiny that ended as quickly as it started?


Vice Admiral (acting General?) Holdo's plan depended on secrecy, and failed specifically because of loose-lipped Rebel personnel.  She was proven correct in keeping her cards close to her chest.
The mutiny, and Finn & Rose's side-mission, are part of a character-comparison story that pits the impulsive mansplainy young gun Poe, against the wiser, more measured, older female characters who hold command.  Presumably the audience, caught up in the adrenaline rush of it all, are supposed to back the seemingly more enterprising Poe, only to discover (along with him) that a more measured and cautious approach is sometimes the more successful way.
Poe actually caused the failure of Haldo's plan at the cost of the lives of countless Rebel fighters.


----------



## Santino (Jan 3, 2018)

Proposed spin-off film set between The Last Jedi and Episode 9 which is just two hours of Poe in therapy reflecting on his guilt.


----------



## magneze (Jan 3, 2018)

It's about as good as Star Wars gets. Really great. Let's not get hung up on Leia as Superwoman. Or shall we?


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 3, 2018)

Santino said:


> Proposed spin-off film set between The Last Jedi and Episode 9 which is just two hours of Poe in therapy reflecting on his guilt.


I feel the 'denial' phase would be a particularly long section.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 3, 2018)

Santino said:


> Proposed spin-off film set between The Last Jedi and Episode 9 which is just two hours of Poe in therapy reflecting on his guilt.



What did Poe have to feel guilty about?

* - I've just dived in mid-thread so ignore me if you're talking about Edgar Allen Poe


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 3, 2018)

8ball said:


> What did Poe have to feel guilty about?
> 
> * - I've just dived in mid-thread so ignore me if you're talking about Edgar Allen Poe


Poe (Dameron)'s impulsive and indeed, treasonous, intervention not only failed on it's own terms, but also led to the First Order's discovery of the evacuation plan (via the code-breaker DJ,who had overheard Finn discussing it with Poe), which led to the plan's partial failure, and the deaths of a large swathe of the existing Rebel population (including Vice Admiral Holdo herself).
I thought General Leia was extremely generous (or pragmatic) in rehabilitating him.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 3, 2018)

N_igma said:


> So Luke has to go to Dagobah and go through a all that training with Yoda to be able to master the force yet Rey can go toe to toe with Kylo Ren and literally move mountains with fuck all training? Yeh good one.


To be fair, on guitar, some people take ages to master Smoke on the Water. I managed in a mere 6 months.


----------



## Santino (Jan 3, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> Poe (Dameron)'s impulsive and indeed, treasonous, intervention not only failed on it's own terms, but also led to the First Order's discovery of the evacuation plan (via the code-breaker DJ,who had overheard Finn discussing it with Poe), which led to the plan's partial failure, and the deaths of a large swathe of the existing Rebel population (including Vice Admiral Holdo herself).
> I thought General Leia was extremely generous (or pragmatic) in rehabilitating him.


The greatest teacher is failure.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 3, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> Poe (Dameron)'s impulsive and indeed, treasonous, intervention not only failed on it's own terms, but also led to the First Order's discovery of the evacuation plan (via the code-breaker DJ,who had overheard Finn discussing it with Poe), which led to the plan's partial failure, and the deaths of a large swathe of the existing Rebel population (including Vice Admiral Holdo herself).
> I thought General Leia was extremely generous (or pragmatic) in rehabilitating him.



Yeah, but he was trying to help - its not like he did a Lando.  And it was a pretty good plan which would have made the film a good deal duller if he hadn’t done it and provided a new environment with creatures and characters that expanded merchandising opportunities by up to 16%.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 3, 2018)

8ball said:


> Yeah, but he was trying to help - its not like he did a Lando.  And it was a pretty good plan which would have made the film a good deal duller if he hadn’t done it and provided a new environment with creatures and characters that expanded merchandising opportunities by up to 16%.


A 'good' plan, would be one that furthered the cause of the rebellion, thwarted the designs of the First Order, and contributed to the restoration of balance within the Universe, not one that made for better entertainment opportunities during the retelling, in a completely different era and galaxy!


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 3, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> Are you saying that as Yoda, or as a chirpy cockney chap?



to be honest it was yoda talk , but after watching TLJ, I'm gonna go with cockney, I've stayed away from the thread after a poster flounced off as I dared to find fault with the film .

but after reflecting for a bit, il say this firm has done something amazing...

made me not want to go and see the ' Solo' film or the next episode on first day


----------



## Gromit (Jan 3, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> Vice Admiral (acting General?) Holdo's plan depended on secrecy, and failed specifically because of loose-lipped Rebel personnel.  She was proven correct in keeping her cards close to her chest.
> The mutiny, and Finn & Rose's side-mission, are part of a character-comparison story that pits the impulsive mansplainy young gun Poe, against the wiser, more measured, older female characters who hold command.  Presumably the audience, caught up in the adrenaline rush of it all, are supposed to back the seemingly more enterprising Poe, only to discover (along with him) that a more measured and cautious approach is sometimes the more successful way.
> Poe actually caused the failure of Haldo's plan at the cost of the lives of countless Rebel fighters.


He's loyal but rash and impulsive when kept in the dark.

So how should we deal with him... I know lets keep him in the dark yet again. I know that he keeps doing rash and impulsive things when we do this but hey if he gets enough people killed he's bound to learn eventually.

Over engineered bullshit story arc to squeeze some 'intrigue' and extra action in.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 3, 2018)

Gromit said:


> He's loyal but rash and impulsive when kept in the dark.
> 
> So how should we deal with him... I know lets keep him in the dark yet again. I know that he keeps doing rash and impulsive things when we do this but hey if he gets enough people killed he's bound to learn eventually.
> 
> Over engineered bullshit story arc to squeeze some 'intrigue' and extra action in.


You had to go on an 'engineered story arc' of your own to twist the blame on the command .


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 4, 2018)

magneze said:


> It's about as good as Star Wars gets. Really great. Let's not get hung up on Leia as Superwoman. Or shall we?



It was the first time we saw her use the force. It was awesome. I don't get why some people have issues withh it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 4, 2018)

Because it looked bloody daft.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 4, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> Because it looked bloody daft.



About as daft as Luke lifting his ship out of the mud on Dagobah


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 4, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> About as daft as Luke lifting his ship out of the mud on Dagobah


No, far, faaaaaar more daft. She looked like Mary SpacePoppins.

As I said in one of my first posts, I'm all for Leia using the force, it was just poorly executed/filmed in this case.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 4, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> No, far, faaaaaar more daft. She looked like Mary SpacePoppins.
> 
> As I said in one of my first posts, I'm all for Leia using the force, it was just poorly executed/filmed in this case.



gods, I thought it was a majestic scene. oh well.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 4, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> It was the first time we saw her use the force. It was awesome. I don't get why some people have issues withh it.


No it wasn’t.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 4, 2018)

Gromit said:


> No it wasn’t.



Yes it was. She's heard and felt things before - Luke in Bespin and Han's death but this was the first time she "used" it.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 4, 2018)

OMG!  Luke's right!  I just used the Force to move a pencil on my desk!  Just a few millimetres, but it worked!!!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 4, 2018)

I just used the force unintentionally. Farted and followed through.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 4, 2018)

...is strong in this one, etc.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 4, 2018)

Right, own up.  Which one of you on this thread is actually Mark Hamill?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 4, 2018)

We are all Mark Hamill


----------



## Gromit (Jan 4, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes it was. She's heard and felt things before - Luke in Bespin and Han's death but this was the first time she "used" it.


You misunderstand the true nature of the force.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 4, 2018)

I didn't like that they were allowed to use the beehive hits on Skellig.

And I was actually sitting there thinking " this is awful" when I saw it today, but with hindsight I am starting to revise my opinion.
 . .

Pray I do not revise it further.


----------



## Kesher (Jan 4, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I just used the force unintentionally. Farted and followed through.


----------



## Graymalkin (Jan 5, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> You had to go on an 'engineered story arc' of your own to twist the blame on the command .


Just musing on this now, it occurred to me that despite Poe's recklessness the (entirely valid) "shut up and let the women talk" plot didn't come off all that well when you remember that his decisions led to the destruction of one "dreadnought", Snokes 60Km wide star destroyer, and at least two other standard star destroyers.  It just wasn't well written.  I'm all for putting the hothead in his place but that subplot took up half the movie and came across as a sensible "hail mary" move.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 5, 2018)

Graymalkin said:


> Just musing on this now, it occurred to me that despite Poe's recklessness the (entirely valid) "shut up and let the women talk" plot didn't come off all that well when you remember that his decisions led to the destruction of one "dreadnought", Snokes 60Km wide star destroyer, and at least two other standard star destroyers.


Do you mean via Holdo's desperation light speed charge? Are you crediting that to Poe?


----------



## Graymalkin (Jan 5, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> Do you mean via Holdo's desperation light speed charge? Are you crediting that to Poe?


Well, it was obviously improvised and not part of the original plan.  Like I said, Poe is a reckless glory seeking fool, not someone you want in a leadership position.  I just don't think that point was made well.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jan 5, 2018)

There probably hasn't been an army anywhere on a war footing where he wouldn't have been taken off and summarily executed for his actions.  The rebellion are quite an enlightened lot I guess.
I keep calling them the Rebellion, but I think they are just called the 'Resistance' now, huh?


----------



## Graymalkin (Jan 5, 2018)

I think they used 'rebellion' and 'resistance' in this one.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 5, 2018)

I think Poe is a tit....


----------



## donkyboy (Jan 5, 2018)

looks like april when HD version will come out on torrent. a long wait.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 6, 2018)

I'm not a star wars person but I liked it, even if it was a bit clumsy in places.


----------



## T & P (Jan 6, 2018)

Every single SW film to date has been clumsy in places (and had plot holes aplenty too). Some people seem to have short memories as far as the original trilogy is concerned.


----------



## no-no (Jan 8, 2018)

alsoknownas said:


> Poe (Dameron)'s impulsive and indeed, treasonous, intervention not only failed on it's own terms, but also led to the First Order's discovery of the evacuation plan (via the code-breaker DJ,who had overheard Finn discussing it with Poe), which led to the plan's partial failure, and the deaths of a large swathe of the existing Rebel population (including Vice Admiral Holdo herself).
> I thought General Leia was extremely generous (or pragmatic) in rehabilitating him.



to be fair though the Holdo's plan was absolute bullshit. How were the troop carriers supposed to be invisible? There's a scene where rey and snoke are looking at the rebel fleet through their telescope thing in the throne room. The fleet are clearly visible. They didn't need to pick them up on scanners, they could SEE them. Maybe they were cloaked but then if that's the case why was Poe so skeptical of the plan? if the carriers had cloaking dvices then surely he'd be down for cloaking the fuck out of there and leaving c3po to sacrifice himslef in the kamikaze run.

Poe was right to think Holdo was nuts.....also, in a universe with possibly sentient droids wondering around it's really dumb to think that the rebel battelship didn't have autopilot on it. Why did holdo have to sacrifice herself? Poor cow, i bet she was hoping someone would do a Rose and save her at the last moment. Sorry Holdo, no one loves you enough to save you.

Holdo's plan worked in spite of a terrible script.

Completely daft.


----------



## no-no (Jan 8, 2018)

I came out asking myself which had the greatest emotional impact on me....

Luke and Han dying? Or Yondu's death in Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

I don't mind admitting I nearly cried when Yondu said " _He_ may have been _your father_, boy, but _he_ wasn't _your daddy"_

Star Wars is like one of those bands that release a great album then wait too long to release a mediocre follow up. Rogue one was great, the other two were average....about as much fun as watching one of those underworld movies with whats her face from porridge.


----------



## nuffsaid (Jan 8, 2018)

Finally got to see it this afternoon ( the last treat of my Xmas break ). Read some of this thread but not all so sorry if I'm rehashing others thoughts, which is somewhat like the film:

They have TOTALLY run out of ideas and are just rehashing everything over and over to milk us of our cash.

Rey in dark rocky hole = Luke in the tree in Empire
Snoke + Kylo v Rey = Emperor + Vader v Luke in Return, (they even had the lightsaber on the armrest thing going on)
Millennium Falcon going in and out of mine = Millennium Falcon dodging the asteroids in Return
First Order v Rebels final battle scene = Hoth attack (this one was quite blatant) salt for snow (ffs!) defenders sat in a trench, small fighters v Walkers...come on. 

So Kylo Ren becomes new Vader and Rey is Skywalker, on and on and on we go, generation after generation.

Having said all that, the opening battle scene was enjoyable and Snoke's ship was a kickass, space-faring, humungous, B2 Bomber....nice.

I can never say anything bad about Benicio Del Toro, and he was probably the most interesting character but also reminded me a bit of Boba Fett, someone dodgy on the edge of the story, he was good.

But the earlier clip above with Hamill says it all. Luke wouldn't go out with a whimper, or they at least should have had more story, going into the next films maybe, about how he became so cynical. One realisation about Kylo being a bit of a git doesn't cut it. 

So the story just moves on a generation but is basically the same. I really liked Rogue One, but then as that was so wedded to New Hope it was an actual extension of Star Wars proper, TFA and Last Jedi are just rehashing old plots.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 8, 2018)

Benicio Del Toro was Lando without the redeeming features.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 8, 2018)

Del Toro? Not awful, but a bit too much mugging for the camera.


----------



## no-no (Jan 9, 2018)

Del Toro breaks my suspension of disbelief, he's so obviously Benicio Del Toro!Didn't like him in GOG either but esp when he just happens to be a master hacker/cracker lounging around in the cell they happen to be locked up in.

then he procedes to casually break out of the cell.....wht the hell was he waiting around for? just passing the time of day?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jan 11, 2018)

no-no said:


> then he procedes to casually break out of the cell.....wht the hell was he waiting around for? just passing the time of day?



They mentioned they had a ship.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 11, 2018)

I've been thinking about Game of Thrones..something like 64 hours of epic story telling, expertly planned out and structured, with coherent story arcs, pacing, tone, acting levels etc. Compare to what the Star Wars series is at present. If you take the 8 episodes together its a total mess, but even if you just take Disney's 7+8 it still feels like a rambling mess.

George Lucas wrote the first three in near enough one go and they sit together well as a trilogy, and they pass the GOT benchmark test - everything within them is coherent (with a bit of a wobble in Return of the Jedi). With the new Disney versions there is no over-arching plan or vision. Each new film has a new writer picking up where the last one finishes and going wherever they want. Its a little like playing that fold and draw game, consequences.

Some of the best films ever made are written and directed by the same person. I am genuinely surprised that this happened on the Last Jedi. Although there are some genuine bits of vision in this new film ultimately it still feels massively bitty and box ticking for demographics.

Its interesting that in this thread people feel drawn to make pros, cons and meh lists, breaking down the film into little components - its like reverse engineering what is a very engineered story. I think thats no coincidence as its a film made up of lots of (often incongruous) elements. I also have a list of little bits i liked, and then a long list of little elements i didnt. The film writing lends itself to that because thats what it is, elements squashed together.

Before watching this I fancied a little Star Wars hit so I watched for the first time the Han shoots first Star Wars original theatrical release (with no CGI).  Its not worth trying to compare it to any modern film, let alone a Star Wars film, but it does pass the Game of Thrones test of being well paced, clear narrative, everything fits neatly together. You don't come away from it saying I like this bit this bit this bit, but not that bit or that bit or that bit. Thats because it was the result of a single clear vision that wasn't pandering to multiple expectations (and generally was just a great bit of film making/writing).

Ultimately with Last Jedi I didn't feel like i got lost in a film, i felt like i watched a slightly tortured process of trying to keep the Star Wars franchise going. Almost every couple of minutes something happens that broke any suspension of disbelief. Seeing it on a big screen and (reluctantly) on 3D also showed up the acting as weak (though this is more a fault of the writing/dialogue). This is the last time I'm going to see a Disneys Star Wars film in a cinema - it belongs on a home screen on a Sunday afternoon with a few stiff drinks. The big screen cinema experience just shows up all the problems going on. I still have a tiny bit of hope for the standalones to go off and do something unusual and interesting.

My Good and Bad element list has a lot of stuff already mentioned but id add

-Orphans stuff reminded of Michael Jacksons Moonwalker






WTF are r2d2 and cpo still doing in these films? Pointless. Im rooting for Kylo Ren to kill all of it off and make a new slate. Seriously disappointed Leia didnt die in space ffs. Groaned throughout. High time to purge the old stuff.

John Williams is going to need to write some new themes as the Star Wars music of old doesn't suit these new films or characters. They did it with Bond and they need to do it here. John is still alive and working so they might be in luck there.

The socio-politics (arms dealers, Kylo's nihilism, female leaders stuff, freeing wild ensnared animals etc) is sort of welcome but its still feels like an inserted element rather than a true beating heart, and its tone is nearer MJ Moonwalker version of social justice than anything else.

As if there wasnt enough to break suspension of disbelief when Rose and Finn get kicked out of the casino for parking violation they get issued a 27B/6 - the famous bit of paperwork from Brazil. Its not clever, its just annoying...

moan moan moan!!


----------



## Crispy (Jan 11, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Thats because it was the result of a single clear vision that wasn't pandering to multiple expectations (and generally was just a great bit of film making/writing).


Actually the production was a bit of a mess, with lots of unused scenes and last-minute rewrites. The film we know as Star Wars only really came together in the edit, for which we have Marcia Lucas to thank.


----------



## no-no (Jan 12, 2018)

Dom Traynor said:


> They mentioned they had a ship.



Ah right, still...he can casually break out of the cell but can't steal a ship?


----------



## emanymton (Jan 12, 2018)

no-no said:


> Ah right, still...he can casually break out of the cell but can't steal a ship?


He does steal a ship. And he doesn't wait for them either, so no I don't think it makes sense that he suddenly decided to leave then because they had a ship.

More likely he was pissed got banged up in a cell was sleeping it off and got work up by them. That makes more sense then much of what happened in the film.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 12, 2018)

It was very weak, terrible acting and apart from a few scenes all rather silly. Also, IMAX/3D shizzle hurts my head and eyes. 

Might work for Blue Planet or something but this just annoyed the fuck out of me.


----------



## cybershot (Jan 13, 2018)

Re watched with a friend who hadn't seen it, upon second viewing:

The Good


The space fights were great, although I don't quite understand why you'd have bombers in space!


Rose adds a new dimension, a sensible engineer type head to the team, which probably makes sense as Rey is obviously far too interesting now to be be seen as someone that can suddenly repair some injector couplings on the Falcon like in TFA, so that part needed a new character, and she's also quite charming, some excellent casting there that also in the real world is good, as a seemingly every day normal woman is seen as a solid engineer and someone that can get her hands dirty with technical stuff. Should become the more inspirational character going forward for young girls rather than voodoo wielding Rey.


DJ the code breaker, I get we haven't seen the last of him and strikes me as the sort of new Lando.


Yoda and the burning of the Jedi books temple. To me this scene sort of made connection with modern day realisation that religion is a load of rubbish and causes nothing but wars. The force can be found in anyone and everyone, and I hope this is the way they go with Rey, that she is just a normal girl, from a normal family, and that her parents were indeed just poor people. Proving that blood lines and religions mean nothing and that everyone has the power inside them to be something amazing. I believe this is also emphasised in the very last scene in the film with the young boy on the 'casino planet'

Also kind of touched upon in why was Luke training of the force. Why would he bother teaching a load of regular kids the force?


The Casino planet, showing that there's still a class of people, and that the rich profit from war. Again giving the story a more modern and realistic take, although this wasn't really explored upon much.


Kylo's desire to kill the past, which also vibes with the above.


Seeing that Rey and Kylo can get to each other obviously opens the door to a very long story arc of who will turn where, but this is Disney now, so we know how that is going to end.


To see Snoke defeated already made his character look weak and nothing like the original emperor, this should allow Kylo to take the helm and now separates the movies going forward to being too much like the original trilogy of having this 'masterful emperor' calling the shots from afar.


Carrie Fisher, almost every scene with her in made you feel emotional, probably part of the reason I enjoyed the film more than others, because I felt emotionally into it.

The Bad


Leia, for the first time finally uses the force to save herself from impending death in outter space. Most of us were probably thinking as we sat in our seats that this was her death scene, but clearly not. It seemed an odd way to finally see her use the force.


Laura Dern, who seems to pop up in everything takes over, whether she was carrying on Leia's original plan or not, but what seems daft is that her plan really isn't that much of a plan, so why on earth did she decide to keep it to herself. Even if she told Poe and the others the plan the likelihood was that Poe would have gone and done what he did anyway due to him being the hot head swash buckler that he is. It made her character not be likeable, and I don't like not liking a Laura Dern character because she's ace.


Luke's death. At this point I thought the film should already have ended. Yes the whole planet scene was very much Empire Strikes Back, and perhaps if they had started the next film this way then it would have been considered even more of an Empire ripp off, but personally I think the planet scene would have been a much better way to start the next film, than how to end a film. Or at least starting the next film with Luke's death could have been more meaningful as a new film progressed rather than being a not very good way of ending a film with little explanation. If he intended to die, why not just do it in person rather than from a far.


Chewie, R2 and C3PO are barely in the film, if you're not going to use them going forward, please just find a good way of writing them out of it. As a result the humour in the film falls flat on it's face.


The length. As kind of pointed on in Luke's death, the film goes on for a bit too long.

Kind of wish Rian Johnson was doing the next film, I think he has opened up the story to be something much more than just force light vs dark, where as JJ is just going to do another fan service.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2018)

You Tube has just had to buy some new servers to deal with all the Last Jedi Is Shit videos 

Rotten Tomatoes scores:
Force Awakens: Critics 93% Audience 88%
Rogue One: Critics 85% Audience 87%
Last Jedi: Critics 90% Audience 49% (thats lower than the prequels which score around 55-60% audience ratings)

i agree with the audience (though id have the prequels on 10%)...also why i gave up reading film critic reviews a long time ago (in newspapers far, far away)


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 13, 2018)

no-no said:


> Del Toro breaks my suspension of disbelief, he's so obviously Benicio Del Toro!Didn't like him in GOG either but esp when he just happens to be a master hacker/cracker lounging around in the cell they happen to be locked up in.
> 
> then he procedes to casually break out of the cell.....wht the hell was he waiting around for? just passing the time of day?





Idris2002 said:


> Del Toro? Not awful, but a bit too much mugging for the camera.



The hacker with the actual didntcatchthename flower on in the casino was Justin Theroux and I was v excited to see him as he’s _not in enough stuff._ But they ran straight past him and into yet another slightly tedious BDT cameo


----------



## T & P (Jan 13, 2018)

ska invita said:


> You Tube has just had to buy some new servers to deal with all the Last Jedi Is Shit videos
> 
> Rotten Tomatoes scores:
> Force Awakens: Critics 93% Audience 88%
> ...


I don't take either for granted. Even less so since the advent of the altright/ 4chan lot, which will go out of their way to influence opinion of films they deem offensive to their worldview.

I have no problem with lots of people not liking TLJ. But I do find the audience approval rating disparity between TFA and TLJ inexplicable to be honest. And as you mention that the prequels get 50% plus approval, I'm happy to disregard audiences as a bunch of simpletons.

Perhaps it's an age thing.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2018)

T & P said:


> But I do find the audience approval rating disparity between TFA and TLJ inexplicable to be honest.


I get why there's such a big difference, and I think its basically justified.
 Force Awakens may have had some annoying JJ Abrams trademark over the top unrealistic action sequences in it but it ultimately trod very safe real-Star Wars territory and didn't fuck anything up too badly, and set up new characters for the future of the series....there's meant to be a Star Wars film every two years indefinitely, so punters were happy enough with the predictability of the story line/soft reboot nature of it in the name of kicking off the series anew on a good foot. Mass relief at it not being anywhere near as shit as the prequels also helped.

This one however is so full of things that if you stop to give them any thought make no sense or otherwise annoy, that what feels like the majority of Star Wars fans - _who very actively engage with the ongoing storylines and arcs _- have been left seemingly in despair. I'm no Star Wars "fan", ive never given that much thought to any of it, but I do like the original films, understand what Star Wars is and how it works, and was really up for giving this series a chance and hoped they'd be good. But that feels over to me now. Last Jedi was ridiculous and annoying on so many levels that I no longer trust them to tell a story that holds up, so I feel I will no longer engage on the same level (but no doubt will still give them a torrent watch eventually when I need distracting). I think a lot of real Fans are feeling that same step down, and as they're so into it its hurting them.  

I've no idea why but its still bugging me. Unintentionally I cant stop thinking about it. The more I think about it, the more I remember what I saw, and the shitter I think it was. Looked incredible of course, amazing production, some good intentions in there, but in reality I think the majority of the time there was some degree of nonsense going on on the screen, and for those people for whom the plot/dialogue is the most important bit they feel the most let down .


----------



## MikeMcc (Jan 18, 2018)

My biggest bugbear in the film was the deux ex machina moment of Dern using the transport and the Hyperdrive to shred the First Order fleet.  It wasn't just the big brute of a destroyer that got thrashed but most of the supporting Destroyers.  If it was that easy why was nobody just putting automated hyperdrives onto asteroids and annihilating any invading fleet?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2018)

MikeMcc said:


> My biggest bugbear in the film was the deux ex machina moment of Dern using the transport and the Hyperdrive to shred the First Order fleet.  It wasn't just the big brute of a destroyer that got thrashed but most of the supporting Destroyers.  If it was that easy why was nobody just putting automated hyperdrives onto asteroids and annihilating any invading fleet?


Every single big action moment has some kind of nonsense element to it...im tempted to write them all down but theres so many i cant be arsed.  Knowing how Star Wars fans like to pore over the details its driving them mad i think


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2018)

It's just a film about space aliens. why should it make sense?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> It's just a film about space aliens. why should it make sense?


because logic in story telling is important if you want to create any sense of consequence


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> because logic in story telling is important if you want to create any sense of consequence


only if you go looking for it, you can also decide to just enjoy it


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> only if you go looking for it, you can also decide to just enjoy it


if by looking for it you mean paying money to sit infront of a big screen and paying attention for 2hrs, then yes, thats the problem - i went looking for it. and thats why i wont be doing it again. By all accounts 10 year olds love the film, so im happy for them, but it is basically a saturday morning cartoon now

by your logic all art is equal and all you have to do is decide to enjoy it - its all in the mind! Cant get on board with that.
The amount of switching your brain off required to enjoy this film was ridiculous - every couple of minutes you have to internally say "allow it".


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> by your logic all art is equal and all you have to do is decide to enjoy it - its all in the mind!


nope, i was just talking about this kind of film - the daftest and most ridiculous of all films/genres, yet it gets such a forensic examination by its supposed fans. it's hilarious.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> nope, i was just talking about this kind of film - the daftest and most ridiculous of all films/genres, yet it gets such a forensic examination by its supposed fans. it's hilarious.


its not that forensic really - the stupid stuff jumps out at you if your eyes are open. Crucially the original films didnt suffer from this problem - it can be done and fans want it done again. Well the ewoks stretched it, but up until then it added up by its own logic for the most part, and carried some emotional weight and sense of jeopardy as a result


----------



## Crispy (Jan 18, 2018)

If Han and Leia can walk around in the stomach of a giant asteroid space worm with just a face mask on and Ewoks can defeat the empire's crack troops, then Holdo can lightspeed kamikaze the fleet. It's fine.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2018)

Crispy said:


> If Han and Leia can walk around in the stomach of a giant asteroid space worm with just a face mask on and Ewoks can defeat the empire's crack troops, then Holdo can lightspeed kamikaze the fleet. It's fine.


the odd thing you can excuse/ignore, but in this film i found it relentless - physics is one occasional problem which usually you give a blie too, but it comes on top of bad comedy, hamfistted political points, messing up characters motivations and arcs, jumbled tone changes, painful attempts to include things from old films, plot holes, undoing things set up in the past, endless yeah but why didnt this then thoughts, why would they do that thoughts, no one in control of long-term narrative across the trilogy, generally bad writing etc etc its relentlessly shit in myriad ways i think

ewoks clearly went down a kids path...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 18, 2018)

Crispy said:


> If Han and Leia can walk around in the stomach of a giant asteroid space worm with just a face mask on and Ewoks can defeat the empire's crack troops, then Holdo can lightspeed kamikaze the fleet. It's fine.


I think the issue is not that the idea is fantastical, but that it raises the question "why is that not an established battle tactic?". If they can send objects through other objects at light speed, why don't they have drones to do that? Even if it's a question of size, something as relatively small as an X-Wing has light speed capabilities - automate one of them and then boom's your uncle.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 18, 2018)

Space wizards, Death Stars that can be blown up easily and stormtroopers who can't shoot proper. Doesn't really make sense but I love it.

A "fan" has edited the latest instalment to reduce the female characters impact 

Star Wars: The Last Jedi cast mock 'men-only' fan edit

It reminds me of school antics "no girls allowed" etc.


----------



## T & P (Jan 18, 2018)

I reckon a SW writer could conjure up a perfectly credible explanation involving anything from ship size to the ships' proximity to each other to the defensive shield not having enough time to reconfigure its settings to deal with the incoming ship as it was too close, to many potential other explanations. And it it was well thought out and explained, most people would happily buy it.

Let's not forget that virtually every SW fan in history has been more than happy to overlook arguably the biggest fallacy of them all in the entire saga: that a single measly torpedo could destroy a moon-sized battle station. If Rogue One hadn't been written, everyone here would presumably continue to be happy to ignore such massive plot hole.

And let's not forget Starkiller Base in TFA, which stretches one's suspension of disbelief to its very limits on various fronts.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 18, 2018)




----------



## no-no (Jan 19, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> It's just a film about space aliens. why should it make sense?



It should make internal sense. Good scifi should ask us to supend disbelief on a few matters and then the rest of the content should be consistent otherwise it's like listening to a kid make up a story.


----------



## no-no (Jan 19, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


>


tbh I think it could have done with more humour, i found the prequels serious yoda to be a bit booooring.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jan 19, 2018)

well that was the worst use of 14 hours or however long it was ive ever had. and ive had surgery with no general anesthetic.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 19, 2018)

The jokes were out of whack with the Star Wars Universe. The call on hold joke was funny, but it didn't fit.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


>



The fact there are jokes in both Last Jedi and Empire does not mean they are both equally well executed.
In the original films humour was placed well in moments that developed characters personalities or helped defuse the end of dramatic sequences - in which genuine drama had been built up. Last Jedi just drops it in all over the place ignoring the overall mood or needs of a scene.
Yoda's training sequence in Empire is a wonderful bit of patient character writing. His switch from playing foolish to wise master is genuinely great writing. Yoda's deliberate foolishness is a test on Luke already. And it tricks the audience in making an assumption - the joke ends up on us for judging him. The comedy serves a purpose.
Absolutely nothing compares to it in Last Jedi in terms of writing quality. The whole sequence is far too slow and engaging to be allowed anywhere near Last Jedi.

Last Jedi is objectively really poor writing. Empire is a film that could be studied in film school. Last Jedi only as examples of errors not to make: there isnt a single sequence in the film that holds water to the last.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 19, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The jokes were out of whack with the Star Wars Universe. The call on hold joke was funny, but it didn't fit.



There's precedent for amusing calls, though


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> There's precedent for amusing calls, though



another great example of good appropriate use of humour: shows a lot about Han's character, creates tension: his panic becomes our panic etc. Humour serving the overall film. It can be done.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> another great example of good appropriate use of humour: shows a lot about Han's character, creates tension: his panic becomes our panic etc. Humour serving the overall film. It can be done.



Basically, it's a good joke that works in the environment it's set. It's not a telephone 'on hold' joke that is aimed at us in a Galaxy far far way from that galaxy where I've never seen a telephone, or a galactic call centre.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Basically, it's a good joke that works in the environment it's set. It's not a telephone 'on hold' joke that is aimed at us in a Galaxy far far way from that galaxy where I've never seen a telephone, or a galactic call centre.


tbf with that joke i think the idea was he was trying to buy time for something? it cuts to some kind of bar going up and when it reaches full he breaks off? It wasnt set up clearly so you have to fill in the blanks. With some slightly better writing it could've worked....though, personally, on top of all that I find Poe very unlikeable...just doesnt have the charm or character depth. He is responsible for a lot of comrades deaths in this film and he just acts completely two dimensionally no matter what is happening. I don't blame the actor, its the way he's been written. You could argue he's meant to be 2d as thats who he is I guess...but that reinforces why i dont like him on screen.

Poe's actions and consequences kill all but him of a squadron of their last few x wings and then his mutiny etc leads to the destruction of all the other rebels in the massacre of the transporters - its a major part of the film and the conflict with him and the female commanders is a massive part of the story telling (nothing forensic about this) - they tried to make a heavy handed point about all this
Yet he 2D's it all the way despite all that supposed drama


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> tbf with that joke i think the idea was he was trying to buy time for something? it cuts to some kind of bar going up and when it reaches full he breaks off? It wasnt set up clearly so you have to fill in the blanks. With some slightly better writing it could've worked....though, personally, on top of all that I find Poe very unlikeable...just doesnt have the charm or character depth. He is responsible for a lot of comrades deaths in this film and he just acts completely two dimensionally no matter what is happening. I don't blame the actor, its the way he's been written. You could argue he's meant to be 2d as thats who he is I guess...but that reinforces why i dont like him on screen.
> 
> Poe's actions and consequences kill all but him of a squadron of their last few x wings and then his mutiny etc leads to the destruction of all the other rebels in the massacre of the transporters - its a major part of the film and the conflict with him and the female commanders is a massive part of the story telling (nothing forensic about this) - they tried to make a heavy handed point about all this
> Yet he 2D's it all the way despite all that supposed drama



Totally agree. He is supposed to be the 'Han Solo' of the new trilogy, and he is a just a dick.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2018)

Doesnt Laura Dern/Holdo say towards the end something like " he's so impetuous - I like that guy"....er, he's just got you and 98% of the remaining rebels killed lol.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2018)

no-no said:


> It should make internal sense. Good scifi should ask us to supend disbelief on a few matters and then the rest of the content should be consistent otherwise it's like listening to a kid make up a story.


I guess it depends on how you take it in. If you go looking for inconsistencies and holes you will find them, but if you just enjoy it as a spectacle, then it doesn't matter, and you don't see these supposed faults.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> I guess it depends on how you take it in. If you go looking for inconsistencies and holes you will find them, but if you just enjoy it as a spectacle, then it doesn't matter, and you don't see these supposed faults.


What did you think of the prequels? Were you able to Just Enjoy them?


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 19, 2018)

The director tweets a response to the Luke/astralprojection complaints....


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> What did you think of the prequels? Were you able to Just Enjoy them?


God no, they were terrible. I found them difficult to follow, especially the last one. Bad bad storytelling.
You said in an earlier post that the writing in The Last Jedi was 'objectively bad', which is clearly untrue, and laughable when compared to George Lucas's writing. You're holding this film up against Star Wars, most of which is terribly written and full of implausible deī ex machina. Why were you able to suspend your disbelief with Parts IV-VI?
(I think I know the answer - cos you were a child when you first watched it - we have a generation imprinted on Star Wars and who can't step back and see what hokum they were)


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2018)

Interestingly, him indoors was talking to some of his students about Star Wars and they like the prequels and don't like the original trilogy. The thing about what we watch as children is spot on imo.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2018)

Vintage Paw said:


> Interestingly, him indoors was talking to some of his students about Star Wars and they like the prequels and don't like the original trilogy. The thing about what we watch as children is spot on imo.


I myself imprinted on Flash Gordon and James Bond films, thus I have a critical blind spot when watching those


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2018)

Vintage Paw said:


> The thing about what we watch as children is spot on imo.


true to a point but then a film studies course would take 2 minutes and ask What Films Did You Like When You Were Young: they're the good ones.
All films from before 2000-odd seem really boring and lame to lots of young people today - different attention spans. People like all kinds of crap. Some of the biggest box office films in recent years have been the Transformers movies. Lots of people like them. Doesn't stop them being total shite.

You can be objective about these things. The Plinkett rip-apart  film-by-film analysis of the prequels are spot on and properly in depth criticism based on film quality rather than sentimentality or star wars logic-failures. They're genuinely bad films, and most people agree on that. At least George Lucas tried something different though.

I enjoyed Force Awakens and happily enough bit my lip through the couple of sillier bits, but then Force Awakens was basically a remake of Star Wars and benefited a lot from the successful writing and structure of that film. Disney weren't taking any chances on that one. There were some new ideas in there too tbf. Rogue One was good too, but a bit drab. I'm open to these new films, Im not just wrapped up in nostalgia


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> true to a point but then a film studies course would take 2 minutes and ask What Films Did You Like When You Were Young: they're the good ones.
> All films from before 2000-odd seem really boring and lame to lots of young people today - different attention spans. People like all kinds of crap. Some of the biggest box office films in recent years have been the Transformers movies. Lots of people like them. Doesn't stop them being total shite.
> 
> You can be objective about these things. The Plinkett rip-apart  film-by-film analysis of the prequels are spot on and properly in depth criticism based on film quality rather than sentimentality or star wars logic-failures. They're genuinely bad films, and most people agree on that. At least George Lucas tried something different though.
> ...


You could equally do such a forensic analysis of the other films and find them wanting in the same ways though


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Force Awakens was basically a remake of Star Wars and benefited a lot from the successful writing and structure of that film.


It was an improvement, rather than a remake


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> bit my lip through the couple of sillier bits


but not through the silly bits in the other SW films?


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2018)

I watched the original Star Wars films as a child, and the prequels as an adult, and the new ones as an adult with a mortgage, and I like them all. They're all flawed, but I like them in the way that you like people you are friends with, in spite of their flaws, and sometimes because of them.


----------



## CNT36 (Jan 20, 2018)

MikeMcc said:


> My biggest bugbear in the film was the deux ex machina moment of Dern using the transport and the Hyperdrive to shred the First Order fleet.  It wasn't just the big brute of a destroyer that got thrashed but most of the supporting Destroyers.  If it was that easy why was nobody just putting automated hyperdrives onto asteroids and annihilating any invading fleet?


Perhaps it was just a shit Silent Running reference. Blowing yourself up so that the last of something can survive.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 20, 2018)

Vintage Paw said:


> Interestingly, him indoors was talking to some of his students about Star Wars and they like the prequels and don't like the original trilogy. The thing about what we watch as children is spot on imo.


Well they are obviously idiots and are objectively wrong. Seriously though no one can claim that the originals are masterpieces of film making, but they are simply better films than the prequals. 

I'm not sure I do buy this idea that what we watch as children is what we like. There will be an element of truth in it, but there is lots of stuff I liked as a kid/teenager that seems shit to me now. James Bond films for example, my god goldfinger is dull. But I still like the original Star Wars films, not as much as when I was younger true, but I still think they are decent films.

As for the last Jedi. I think my problems started with the opening comedy bit. Which felt more like something from a comedy sketch show doing a star wars bit than an actual star wars film. The humour in a scene like that really comes from the juxtaposition of something from 'our world' taking place in the world of Star Wars. That can work in a comedy sketch, or an out and out comedy, but has no place in an actual Star Wars film as far as I'm concerned. Maybe this is part of why I disliked it so much. The opening scenes should be when you buy into a film, and I just didn't, I was at odds with the film right from the beginning. Maybe if it had got straight to the space battle I'd have been more engaged and more willing to go along with the rest of the film and might have enjoyed it more?


----------



## Santino (Jan 20, 2018)

emanymton said:


> Maybe if it had got straight to the space battle I'd have been more engaged and more willing to go along with the rest of the film and might have enjoyed it more?


No, you are objectively wrong.


----------



## MrSpikey (Jan 21, 2018)

T & P said:


> Let's not forget that virtually every SW fan in history has been more than happy to overlook arguably the biggest fallacy of them all in the entire saga: that a single measly torpedo could destroy a moon-sized battle station.



I think you'll find there are many who question the official Death Star narrative.

On the day of the explosion, 90% of the TIE fighters that should have been available to deal with the attack were diverted to participate in simulated "war games". Coincidence? I think not.

It's a proven fact that a simple reactor explosion can't generate the energy required to disintegrate the structure as claimed. 

A group of Wampas were seen celebrating on a nearby planet as the Death Star exploded. This clearly indicates to any right-thinking person that the actual perpetrators were a collaboration of natives from their home planet - The Hothschilds.

Wake up, people!


----------



## Ralph Llama (Jan 21, 2018)

Christ dies, then ....


----------



## Gromit (Jan 21, 2018)

MrSpikey said:


> I think you'll find there are many who question the official Death Star narrative.
> 
> On the day of the explosion, 90% of the TIE fighters that should have been available to deal with the attack were diverted to participate in simulated "war games". Coincidence? I think not.
> 
> ...


It’s almost as if the lead engineer deliberately incorporated a design flaw to make the Death Star vulnerable. 

Although you’d be dumb to even entertain that as a plot narrative. Silly.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 21, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> The film was good fun, and had both pros and cons, most of which have been covered here. But the one thing I'm going to be really grumpy about is the length of it plus the flabbiness of the plot. It's a silly/fun fantastical space adventure - there's no need to complicate these things and there's certainly no need to drag it out to two and half hours. Even commercially it seems odd - that extra half hour must have cost $20m plus to film, and everyone would have paid the same money to see a 2h film. It annoys me because it's such a trend with lightweight Hollywood films at the moment. It was the main problem with the Bladerunner sequel, but even superhero or Harry Potter films ffs are being dragged way past the two hour mark. I think when people watch Hollywood stuff from this era in thirty years time they will remark on the incredibly poor discipline in writing them and wonder why anyone thought a piece of fluff needed subplots and two and a half hours plus.
> 
> ETA: And it annoys me because it makes them worse films. I think they could be much more entertaining with a tight plot that took less than two hours. More is not better.


^^What I came on this thread to say.  Each and every word from beginning to end.

Although this isn’t contradictory — it’s the reason for the flabbiness remarked on above.  I agree with it too.



Nanker Phelge said:


> The length wasn't an issue for. It was rushing through too many stories. Trying to tell Rey, Luke, Kylo, Leia, Finn, Poe stories and give space to introduce at least 3 new characters, some new creatures, and shoe horn in a bit of Chewie, R2, Yoda, C3PO was all too much. Even 2.5hrs wasn't enough do any of them any justice.
> 
> ......and I dont think any of those strands wouldn't have all been enjoyable, just not all needed at once.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 21, 2018)

Luke Skywalker has been my lifelong hero.  The unglamorous farm boy who dreamt of exciting things and then found the reality of them not to be what he was hoping for, but who retained his heart in spite of everything. And despite being beaten down in the 30 years since RoTJ (Just as Ben Kenobi was between RotS and ANH), Luke Skywalker in this film was fucking awesome, just as me as a child would have hoped Old Man Luke would grow up to be.  His superlative ability with the force to use such a wide scale doppelgänger Jedi skill finally shows us Luke as a hard core Jedi master and was totally a fitting way for him to win the battle he chose to fight.  His realisation that the Jedi were nothing more than an elitist fairy tale was perfect.  I loved Luke then and I loved him now and he will always be my hero.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jan 21, 2018)

kabbes said:


> Luke Skywalker has been my lifelong hero.  The unglamorous farm boy who dreamt of exciting things and then found the reality of them not to be what he was hoping for, but who retained his heart in spite of everything. And despite being beaten down in the 30 years since RoTJ (Just as Ben Kenobi was between RotS and ANH), Luke Skywalker in this film was fucking awesome, just as me as a child would have hoped Old Man Luke would grow up to be.  His superlative ability with the force to use such a wide scale doppelgänger Jedi skill finally shows us Luke as a hard core Jedi master and was totally a fitting way for him to win the battle he chose to fight.  His realisation that the Jedi were nothing more than an elitist fairy tale was perfect.  I loved Luke then and I loved him now and he will always be my hero.



I don't think it is fair to say that Ben was beaten down between RotS and ANH - there is a really profound sense of an individual sacrificing his potential in the hope of something that may (or may not) be true. If Disney do decide to go ahead with an Obi-Wan movie I very much hope that this heroism isn't abandoned, although I suspect that the potential for a further show down with Vader may prove too tempting.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 21, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I don't think it is fair to say that Ben was beaten down between RotS and ANH - there is a really profound sense of an individual sacrificing his potential in the hope of something that may (or may not) be true. If Disney do decide to go ahead with an Obi-Wan movie I very much hope that this heroism isn't abandoned, although I suspect that the potential for a further show down with Vader may prove too tempting.


Between AOTC and ANH might be a better period.  I am referring to the canonical Clone Wars series as well as the events of the film as illustration of how Obi-Wan gradually changes from being a starry-eyed happy-go-lucky believer in the Republic to eventually realising how the Republic itself has a rotten core.


----------



## Santino (Jan 21, 2018)

kabbes said:


> Between AOTC and ANH might be a better period.  I am referring to the canonical Clone Wars series as well as the events of the film as illustration of how Obi-Wan gradually changes from being a starry-eyed happy-go-lucky believer in the Republic to eventually realising how the Republic itself has a rotten core.


Is that camp Hutt with the southern US accent canonical?


----------



## kabbes (Jan 21, 2018)

Santino said:


> Is that camp Hutt with the southern US accent canonical?


Let us not talk of such things.


----------



## MikeMcc (Jan 22, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> It's just a film about space aliens. why should it make sense?


Because if she realized that they could do that, why doesn't everybody do it?  Why have the ridiculous (though spectacular) bombing sequence, if you can smash entire fleets in a fraction of a second?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 22, 2018)

MikeMcc said:


> Because if she realized that they could do that, why doesn't everybody do it?  Why have the ridiculous (though spectacular) bombing sequence, if you can smash entire fleets in a fraction of a second?


I don't know as I wasn't thinking about that when I watched it. all this is stuff that most people are unaware of and care nothing about


----------



## kabbes (Jan 22, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't know as I wasn't thinking about that when I watched it. all this is stuff that most people are unaware of and care nothing about


It’s clever the way you know what most people are unaware of and care nothing about.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 22, 2018)

kabbes said:


> It’s clever the way you know what most people are unaware of and care nothing about.


it has been very well received everywhere and the only people who seem to object to it is the imprinted 40 something geeknerds.


----------



## belboid (Jan 22, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> it has been very well received everywhere and the only people who seem to object to it is the imprinted 40 something geeknerds.


55% on Rotten Tomatoes. A lot of the audience objects to the crap bits (mostly Poe’s stupidity for me).


----------



## kabbes (Jan 23, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> it has been very well received everywhere and the only people who seem to object to it is the imprinted 40 something geeknerds.


It was certainly well received by both me and the friend I saw it with, but we still both came out saying, “if you can destroy whole fleets with an object ramming them at hyper speed, why not just do that all the time?  And why not do it straight away?  And why did Lorna Dern have to personally pilot that massive ship in any case?  Don’t they have autopilot?”

Well received doesn’t mean you don’t notice massive internal inconsistencies.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 15, 2018)

I finally saw it, overall enjoyed (some great touched, lightsaber stabiness, good if nonsensical space combat. Porgs nakedly shoehorned in with no real subplot except 'I am a cute toy'

finn spends the entire film shouting again. Oh leiea as SPAAAACE GHOOOOST was good when you thought she'd died in the blast with RIP ackbar

When ren held his hand out to rey I immediatly went there and hoped their union would be a herald of balance, the yin yang and all that one. Only they didn't go there (they did in my head) instead Luke got his balls out of retirement and saved the day before going of into force ghostland. Also: captain phasma's unearned level of Boss Deathness was funny. Classic baddie mistake 'No shootings to good for them!' yeah excellent last words.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Mar 8, 2018)




----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 8, 2018)

Beats & Pieces said:


>



Of all the shit they left in, but then they left this out? 
Phasma is a pointless plot point that should have been expanded to tie Finn's past role. Less fuckin porgs and Poe . . . And yeah the plot was stooopid. I'm not in love with the original star wars but the lesson there is to keep it simple, not ram it full of crap until the holes and bad stitching start to show.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Mar 8, 2018)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Of all the shit they left in, but then they left this out?
> Phasma is a pointless plot point that should have been expanded to tie Finn's past role. Less fuckin porgs and Poe . . . And yeah the plot was stooopid. I'm not in love with the original star wars but the lesson there is to keep it simple, not ram it full of crap until the holes and bad stitching start to show.



That was my reaction - this is interesting and gives some insight in to Phasma as a character beyond being a silver suit / toy. Increasingly it becomes harder to work out quite what Disney is about regarding Star Wars.


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Apr 15, 2018)

Just watched it and my verdict is... shite. 

Not as good as episode 1, 2 or 3.

Liked the cute alien things though, and the silvery space dogs. 

But by christ, the acting. Oh, the acting. It seemed more like a Flash Gordon sequel, but with worse acting and shitter soundtrack.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Apr 15, 2018)

Given time to reflect, i think that both rogue one and the last jedi were terrible . There, I've finally admitted it.


----------



## T & P (Apr 15, 2018)

PursuedByBears said:


> Given time to reflect, i think that both rogue one and the last jedi were terrible . There, I've finally admitted it.


Even though they’re obviously not the first films to be divisive, i cannot think of any other films that have proved so massively Marmitesque as the new SW films. Not only that, but there isn’t even much consensus amongst any group of people who might dislike one film and like the others.

I’ve meet people who loved Rogue One, didn’t like ep VII but liked VIII. Others liked RO, liked  VII and hated VIII. Others likes/ disliked all three. And similar splits amongst those who hated RO about their opinions of VII & VIII. It is quite fascinating...


----------



## tommers (Apr 23, 2018)

Finally got round to watching it. It was a good spectacle. There were some really cool bits. Like it looked fucking lovely at times.

Bombs in space was stupid. Poe is a fucking idiot. The mechanic woman was very multi-talented (tracking device expert, pilot, weird horse expert etc etc.).

But ultimately who cares? I mean RoTJ is fucking nonsense from start to finish. It was a very enjoyable 2 1/2 hours.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Dec 6, 2018)

FWIW (and to raise an old thread) I think this is the movie that broke the franchise. 
It broke the character of the keystone character, Luke, it broke the universes own unwritten rule in a way that completely invalidates the plot of all the previous films. These combined with the total lack of any coherent narrative or character arcs between the films means that is may be a fun film to watch but it has trashed being a franchise movie. 

First up Luke was the centre of the first trilogy, his hope and willingness to believe in the redemption of his father are a massive part of modern pop culture. To have the whole tossing his light sabre over his back, trying to kill Kylo, not giving a toss older self turn up on screen for this film, this is a huge breach in character continuity that had no real dramatic purpose. It was a fan fiction level character shift. 
Then the whole hyperspace ships can blow up mega Star Destroyers. So every Death Star could have been taken out by an X Wing in hyperspace? Every big space battle against a super big ship could have been won by punting a ship in hyperspeed straight at it? All the convoluted plots to deal with mega space ship plots are now rendered nonsense. 

These show that the creators had no real interest in maintaining continuity of the rules of the universe or the characters motivation. 

On smaller points Rey and Finns character development. It has no arc, no dramatic drive and again more akin to fan fiction than something developed by professionals. Luke arrived in New Hope as a raw farm boy who could only watch Obi Wan die in his fight, he then tried to fight Vader in Empire and got a serious arse kicking, but by Jedi had learnt enough to earn his place in the main fight though lost that. Rey is kicking Snokes body guards with like her second go on a light sabre and Finn kills Phasma with ease in the same film. Both are like "yay I suddenly have ninja skills because reasons". Finn stars by having a break in conditioning because his buddy dies. Then spends two movies cheering as he kills loads of people just like his buddy. 

There are no character arcs, no continuity and nothing be rehashed plot ideas from other movies. 

A lot of people enjoyed it as a stand alone film, that is cool. Its there to be enjoyed. But its total lack of respect for the films that went before it and for any effort to maintain good story telling rules mean a significant number of long term fans have now checked out. 

Compare and contrast with the MCU. There they try to ensure characters are consistent between films, the laws of the fantasy universe are retained and the audience is respected. 

But hey ho, big world, lots of opinions and a great many will continue to buy tickets. 

TL;DNR: JJ Abrams is a clown.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 6, 2018)

ferrelhadley said:


> FWIW (and to raise an old thread) I think this is the movie that broke the franchise.
> It broke the character of the keystone character, Luke, it broke the universes own unwritten rule in a way that completely invalidates the plot of all the previous films. These combined with the total lack of any coherent narrative or character arcs between the films means that is may be a fun film to watch but it has trashed being a franchise movie.
> 
> First up Luke was the centre of the first trilogy, his hope and willingness to believe in the redemption of his father are a massive part of modern pop culture. To have the whole tossing his light sabre over his back, trying to kill Kylo, not giving a toss older self turn up on screen for this film, this is a huge breach in character continuity that had no real dramatic purpose. It was a fan fiction level character shift.
> ...


I agree with most of this but JJ Abrams had very little involvement with this film.


----------



## T & P (Dec 6, 2018)

Abrams’s TFA was a satisfying nostalgia trip but ultimately a largely empty homage/ remake of A New Hope with little originality.

The Last Jedi was a mess on many levels. I don’t necessarily agree with some of the reasons why people hate it, but it for me the plot holes have become too much of an obstacle, even though i’m usually more forgiving than most about plot holes in films.

Another major gripe for me is that we’re two thirds into the so long awaited sequels to the original trilogy, and i’ve no idea where the story is going and little hope the conclusion will have answered any questions or delivered a worthy tale of what happened after ROTJ.

This is why I think Rogue One is not just the best SW film Disney has produced, but the best SW film since the original trilogy, and the only one worthy of standing alongside ithem. It is absurdly underrated IMO.


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Dec 6, 2018)

It was shit.


----------



## Reno (Dec 6, 2018)

I thought it as great.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 7, 2018)

I love how the older Luke became bitter and jaded. He was always impulsive as well, running off during the middle of his training with Yoda and naively thinking he could go up against Darth Vader, letting his emotions get the better of him. Then he fucks up his nephew's training. Not surprising he pissed off to the Skelligs.

An excellently realised example of when life's adventure doesn't turn out the way you think it will.


----------



## Reno (Dec 7, 2018)

I’ve never been a huge Star Wars fan exactly because it is such a simplistic heroes and villains universe. The Last Jedi was the first Star Wars film to surprise me because major characters are finally allowed to be flawed. Luke turns out not the lily white hero he was till then and Kylo Ren is the most complex villain of the franchise. The whole subplot with Laura Dern was excellent and dared to make this trilogy’s Han Solo look like a misogynist prat. 

The film also looks just fantastic, it’s clearly the product and of a film maker who was allowed to bring his vision to this, rather than an anonymous franchise obligation. Not saying the film is perfect, there are structural problems but the online hate campaign by fans because “it broke rules”, because it introduced moral shades of grey and because it upped minority representations is everything wrong with online fan culture.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 7, 2018)

Star Wars films make me feel like the kid I was when I was a kid watching Star Wars films. The new ones do that. Good enough for me.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

Moral shades of grey are good.  We didn’t get them in Last Jedi though.  Everything is still as black and white as it ever was.  Kylo is not complex, he’s a bad guy overthrowing his master and trying to take over the universe.  Lorna Dunn is not complex, she’s just a textbook example of a bad boss who tells underlings to ignore problems they see because they have to trust she has a super secret master plan.  Nobody is complicated in this film.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 7, 2018)

T & P said:


> The Last Jedi was a mess on many levels. I don’t necessarily agree with some of the reasons why people hate it, but it for me the plot holes have become too much of an obstacle, even though i’m usually more forgiving than most about plot holes in films.
> 
> Another major gripe for me is that we’re two thirds into the so long awaited sequels to the original trilogy, and i’ve no idea where the story is going and little hope the conclusion will have answered any questions or delivered a worthy tale of what happened after ROTJ.



I admire Johnson for realising that the only thing to do with the series artistically is to fuck it up. I also see TLJ as a direct dig at JJ Abrams for his fanfic installment and his use of Big Questions in lieu of an actual story. 

Look at Rian Johnson's previous films. They're not universally great but they all attempt something new. Abrams by contrast has built a career on going over old ground. Super 8 is maybe his best movie, but perhaps only because he managed to copy from more than one source.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 7, 2018)

Im not angry anymore but it was awful imo...


----------



## Reno (Dec 7, 2018)

kabbes said:


> Moral shades of grey are good.  We didn’t get them in Last Jedi though.  Everything is still as black and white as it ever was.  Kylo is not complex, he’s a bad guy overthrowing his master and trying to take over the universe.  Lorna Dunn is not complex, she’s just a textbook example of a bad boss who tells underlings to ignore problems they see because they have to trust she has a super secret master plan.  Nobody is complicated in this film.


So that whole Luke-thing which wound up fans so much passed you by ?

I'm not getting the "Lorna Dunn" joke but Admiral Holdo isn't a "bad boss" she is Navy. Since when does a military leader have to share classified information with a recently disgraced hot-head of a pilot who they have good reasons to distrust ? In which war movie or real life situation would that be considered good strategy ? I believe that if the character hadn't been a woman, we wouldn't get endless YouTube videos and online rants, how she is the most hated character in the Star Wars universe. 

Anyways, these are circular discussions and they drag on forever. I'm not invested enough in Star Wars to spend a whole day on this.

The main thing I don't get, its just a fucking movie. Why do fans online (not here of course) threaten critics who liked the film with death and rape threats ? Why did they hound an Asian actress who starred in the movie, off twitter with racist abuse ? If it pissed off those assholes, then that alone makes me think that the movie did something right.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 7, 2018)

Reno said:


> The main thing I don't get, its just a fucking movie. Why do fans online (not here of course) threaten critics who liked the film with death and rape threats ? Why did they hound an Asian actress who starred in the movie, off twitter with racist abuse ? If it pissed off those assholes, then that alone makes me think that the movie did something right.



because people are cunts when they get hold of a keyboard


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

A movie isn’t good just because it pissed off twats.

Luke’s disillusionment was fine by me, but I didn’t particularly enjoy the way it was played for laughs.

The Plinkett review was, as always, spot on.  The problem was that the movie was essentially a comedy farce and the tone of that didn’t at all fit the subject matter.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

And I said Lorna Dunn instead of Laura Dern because my brain went a bit mental.


----------



## Reno (Dec 7, 2018)

kabbes said:


> A movie isn’t good just because it pissed off twats.
> 
> Luke’s disillusionment was fine by me, but I didn’t particularly enjoy they say it was played for laughs.
> 
> The Plinkett review was, as always, spot on.  The problem was that the movie was essentially a comedy farce and the tone of that didn’t at all fit the subject matter.


A comedy farce ? We must have watched different films. Like all Star Wars movies this was also aimed at kids and they all include moments of levity. To claim that Luke's failing was played for laughs is absurd.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

The beats were all farcical.  I’d link to the Plinkett review but I’m guessing you don’t want to watch an hour long dissection of it.  But he’s spot on, the movie follows the structure to the letter of something like National Lampoons Family Vacation.


----------



## Reno (Dec 7, 2018)

kabbes said:


> The beats were all farcical.  I’d link to the Plinkett review but I’m guessing you don’t want to watch an hour long dissection of it.  But he’s spot on, the movie follows the structure to the letter of something like National Lampoons Family Vacation.


Thanks but I've really got better things to do today. I'm already suspicious of someone who takes this much time nitpicking a movie to death. I see more value in spending time a (video) essay which makes you appreciate a film more, rather than one that is fanning the flames of hate for an hour.

The fanboy arguments against the film are always the same. When you point out the flaws in their reasoning, like you (treating Admiral Holdo's motivation like she's a manager at McDonalds), they to resort "the tone" which is a highly subjective matter. Don't fool yourself that this apparently having the structure of "something like National Lampoons Family Vacation" is objective analysis or that matters like "tone" can be boiled down to an exact science.

Anyways, I'm off to the gym...


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

He’s not a fanboy.  He’s just a film reviewer, and a really good one.  His objections to the film are not based around the usual fanboy guff.  His dissection is around the structure and tone of the screenplay itself.  A farce is when the protagonists do things that are idiotic for no good reason, like when Chevy Chase decides to buy a shit car in the face of it being obvious to the viewer that the car is shit in Family Vacation.  In Last Jedi, equivalent idiotic things happen regularly, like Finn and Rose deciding to park on the beach on a world where it is obvious they will face consequences for this, even though they are supposed to be on a covert mission.  It’s not like that decision doesn’t matter either, it is fundamental to the plot, just like the poor car purchase is in Family Vacation


----------



## Santino (Dec 7, 2018)

One of the least edifying aspects of online discourse on cinema is the undue weight given to rules and structure, as if by adhering to (or breaking) certain rules films are thereby good (or bad) - objectively so.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 7, 2018)

I might re-watch over Christmas to see if I feel less disappointed a second time around...

Although the whole Sons of Dick Van Dyke thing still irks....


----------



## T & P (Dec 7, 2018)

The Wacky Races segment with a flotilla of First Order ships chasing the Resistance ships at low speed is my main gripe with the film to be honest. Absurd at so many levels.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 7, 2018)

kabbes said:


> He’s not a fanboy.  He’s just a film reviewer, and a really good one.  His objections to the film are not based around the usual fanboy guff.  His dissection is around the structure and tone of the screenplay itself.  A farce is when the protagonists do things that are idiotic for no good reason, like when Chevy Chase decides to buy a shit car in the face of it being obvious to the viewer that the car is shit in Family Vacation.  In Last Jedi, equivalent idiotic things happen regularly, like Finn and Rose deciding to park on the beach on a world where it is obvious they will face consequences for this, even though they are supposed to be on a covert mission.  It’s not like that decision doesn’t matter either, it is fundamental to the plot, just like the poor car purchase is in Family Vacation


His (their?) breakdowns are good its just a shame they wrap them in shit.

The comedy really was the first and biggest failing of the film. The opening scene with the prank phone call and the 'your mum' joke was just awful. A spot on comment I heard was that it felt like something from a comedy sketch show doing a Star Wars bit, rather than something from an actual Star Wars film.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

Santino said:


> One of the least edifying aspects of online discourse on cinema is the undue weight given to rules and structure, as if by adhering to (or breaking) certain rules films are thereby good (or bad) - objectively so.


If you’re going to break narrative convention, know why you’re doing it. If you’re going to borrow the structure and characterisation of farce, know why you’re doing it.  Some of the best films break the rules.  And so do find if the worst.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

emanymton said:


> His (their?) breakdowns are good its just a shame they wrap them in shit.
> 
> The comedy really was the first and biggest failing of the film. The opening scene with the prank phone call and the 'your mum' joke was just awful. A spot on comment I heard was that it felt like something from a comedy sketch show doing a Star Wars bit, rather than something from an actual Star Wars film.


Luke examining his lightsaber and rejecting it would be dramatic.  Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder was a comedy scene.  At a moment where comedy was really out of place.


----------



## Santino (Dec 7, 2018)

kabbes said:


> If you’re going to break narrative convention, know why you’re doing it. If you’re going to borrow the structure and characterisation of farce, know why you’re doing it.  Some of the best films break the rules.  And so do find if the worst.


For me, with popular/Hollywood film the conventions are so robotically obeyed that I welcome anything different, if it works in the overall context of that particular film. I'd rather see a flawed attempt to do something different than that same one structure flogged to death and beyond.

I do think that Kylo Ren is an interesting character (in the context of a story about space-monks with magic powers and comedy robots). He's not just bad, he's also vulnerable. It's very hard to see how he can have any kind of redemption but he isn't just a soulless villain to be dispatched at the climax of the third film.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

The Plinkett review pointed out that Last Jedi would have been orders of magnitude better had it ended at the point Kylo was reaching out to Rey just after they’d beaten Snoke.  Leave it on a cliffhanger in which both those characters could go either way.  Everything that happened after that point was either trite, stupid or trite and stupid.  Plus the film was too long anyway.


----------



## Santino (Dec 7, 2018)

kabbes said:


> The Plinkett review pointed out that Last Jedi would have been orders of magnitude better had it ended at the point Kylo was reaching out to Rey just after they’d beaten Snoke.  Leave it on a cliffhanger in which both those characters could go either way.  Everything that happened after that point was either trite, stupid or trite and stupid.  Plus the film was too long anyway.


But Luke walking out to face Kylo!

Cliffhangers are usually a terrible way to end films anyway.

The Last Jedi is not without its flaws, but most of those are due to the way The Force Awakens ended, i.e. not long after the climax of the film but with something that needed to be resolved. It meant they had to carry right on with the story instead of jumping ahead 2 or 3 years and seeing where the war had got to and how far Rey had developed.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

Luke walking out to face Kylo was stupid because it was again played as a farce.


----------



## Santino (Dec 7, 2018)

As farcical as Han chasing Stormtroopers down a Death Star corridor? Or Ewoks fighting space Nazis in walking tanks? Or a big space worm swallowing the Millennium falcon?

At a very fundamental level, Star Wars _is _a comedy, a pastiche. Otherwise it's a terrible story about billions of people dying in a war.


----------



## rekil (Dec 7, 2018)

I have always hated every single thing about Star Wars and always will. The "franchise" is the eternally implacable enemy of fillum and space.


----------



## Santino (Dec 7, 2018)

copliker said:


> I have always hated every single thing about Star Wars and always will. The "franchise" is the eternally implacable enemy of fillum and space.


Your mum is the eternally implacable enemy of fillum and space.


----------



## rekil (Dec 7, 2018)

Santino said:


> Your mum is the eternally implacable enemy of fillum and space.


Everyone needs a reason to get up in the morning.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2018)

Santino said:


> As farcical as Han chasing Stormtroopers down a Death Star corridor? Or Ewoks fighting space Nazis in walking tanks? Or a big space worm swallowing the Millennium falcon?
> 
> At a very fundamental level, Star Wars _is _a comedy, a pastiche. Otherwise it's a terrible story about billions of people dying in a war.


Comedy is one thing but farce is something else.  Kylo’s face off with Luke was not the time for a comedy beat and his ludicrous reaction was farcical in its incompetence


----------



## Santino (Dec 7, 2018)

I like it when Luke appears outside of the fort, and Kylo says 'I want every gun...' and you think for a moment that he's going to order all the guns turned off because he needs to face Luke alone, but then he's all 'Nah, mate - everyone shoot the fuck out of that man.' The way other dark lords never bother to even try. Just shoot the good guy, soon as you see him.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 8, 2018)

Reno said:


> Thanks but I've really got better things to do today. I'm already suspicious of someone who takes this much time nitpicking a movie to death. I see more value in spending time a (video) essay which makes you appreciate a film more, rather than one that is fanning the flames of hate for an hour....


----------



## Reno (Dec 8, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


>



Thanks, I just never gotten used to watching these. 

I'd rather watch another film. If I do watch a documentary on film it's more likely to do with film history rather than an opinion piece on a modern blockbusters. Otherwise I prefer film podcasts and books or written articles on film. 

Ultimately I'm more interested in reading or listening to something which introduces me to something new, rather than something which confirms my opinion.


----------

