# Border Police raid Brixton shops for visa "abuse"



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

I saw that "Frumious B" has posted up on this on Brixton chitter chatter. It does seems to me an issue that deserves a thread. 

I object to UKBA (UK Border Agency) coming to Brixton which has a long history of immigration going back to the late 1950s. Immigration makes Brixton what it is today. And that goes for the whole of London as well. The Government pick on visa overstayers who are an easy target. It is so they can be seen to placate peoples concerns about immigration.  These people are not harming others. 

There is article about it in Evening Standard and Brixton Blog

I dont know what other people think but these sort of actions by the thugs of the UKBA really piss me off. As far as Im concerned they can fuck off.


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

In Greece there has just been a similar action, on a larger scale. As the Syriza Party in Greece say its all a distraction from "austerity" cuts.

Good to see how multicultural the UKBA are from the Standard photo.

When the UKBA went on strike just before Olympics the "Trade Union" leader Serwotka was supporting the great job the UKbastardsAgency do. The important job they do in keeping "us" safe. No as far as Im concerned they can go on strike 365 days of the year. Bunch of thugs. 

I have friends from other countries here in London and its no joke these days. Actually this harder line on visa overstayers ( that is what it is) started under New Labour as a consequence of East European immigration here. It is relatively easy to give people who need visas a hard time.


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2012)

Can the visas be extended?


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## ajdown (Aug 27, 2012)

The law's the law.  Is it really that difficult for them to get proper visas to be here legally?


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## Mr Smin (Aug 27, 2012)

ajdown said:


> The law's the law.  Is it really that difficult for them to get proper visas to be here legally?


Can be impossible if the application is rejected.
I dont blame people for trying to live where they want to live, and anecdotally ive seen the most daily mail attitudes from legal migrants and their offspring so perhaps britain is giving visas to the wrong sort of applicant.


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## dessiato (Aug 27, 2012)

There have been two raids here in Lincolnshire in which allegedly illegal immigrants have been arrested.
http://www.thisisgrimsby.co.uk/Immi...cy-Immingham/story-16766355-detail/story.html


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)

Do Australians etc get rounded-up and detained when they over stay their visas?  Or do we just do this to 'undesirable' immigrants?


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)

I wish they would. Those and the bloody Saffas.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)




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## dylanredefined (Aug 27, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I wish they would. Those and the bloody Saffas.


     I think South Africa has suffered enough without sending the saffas we have here back to them. We gave them Mark Thatcher after all its a fair exchange .


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Do Australians etc get rounded-up and detained when they over stay their visas?  Or do we just do this to 'undesirable' immigrants?


Aussies and kiwis are also treated firmly. Due to an overisght a mate recently overstayed his visa by three weeks (he'd had two concurrent 5yr visas). If he had stayed one more week he would have been banned for life despite being engaged to an English girl. He had a driving offence for driving without a valid licence (he only had a kiwi licence) and so was not eligible to extend his visa. He left the country for two months but because he was engaged he was allowed back for six months under a fiance visa but even this would have been denied him if he'd overstayed the original visa by more than 28 days. He lost his teaching job and the kids activities company he set up lost its  contracts. He reckons the whole process cost him about 15k.

His response? "Fair dos, mate. It was my job to know the rules but I couldn't really be arsed."


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## Belushi (Aug 27, 2012)

IIRC Australia's biggest problem re illegal immigrants is British overstayers.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)

Rushy said:


> He left the country for two months but because he was engaged he was allowed back for six months under a fiance visa but even this would have been denied him if he'd overstayed the original visa by more than 28 days.


 
But did he get put in some G4S prison while he was waiting for his flight? Or did they let him make his own arrangements?

In Korea you get detained at the airport like a proper bad criminal if you're even 1 day over your visa, though they have internet and bring you kimbap (like sushi) apparently.


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)

Jaysus! AFAIK the worst that happens here is you pay a fine per day. Could be worse if you overstay for longer periods. Need to check this out better actually, as we are looking at overstaying for a week or so at the end of our stay.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Jaysus! AFAIK the worst that happens here is you pay a fine per day. Could be worse if you overstay for longer periods. Need to check this out better actually, as we are looking at overstaying for a week or so at the end of our stay.


 
Can't you just get a week extension at immi?  Tell them how you just can't bear to leave without seeing some cultural relic?


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Can't you just get a week extension at immi? Tell them how you just can't bear to leave without seeing some cultural relic?


 
No can do. We can only do one extension on our visit visas, did that the first month. Now we're looking at visa runs over the border to Oman. One of the reasons we've been travelling monthly is just this issue. That and it's nice to get out of this hole.


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Can the visas be extended?


If you're lucky, it's very difficult and you may have to leave the UK in order apply to get the visa extended.  If unlucky, it's impossible.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)

TruXta said:


> No can do. We can only do one extension on our visit visas, did that the first month. Now we're looking at visa runs over the border to Oman. One of the reasons we've been travelling monthly is just this issue. That and it's nice to get out of this hole.


 
Heh, I used to have to visa run to Japan ever 90 days when we first lived in Korea and weren't married.  Forced holidays aren't so fun.


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Heh, I used to have to visa run to Japan ever 90 days when we first lived in Korea and weren't married. Forced holidays aren't so fun.


 
I've had a great time farting around the ME/South Asia!


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I've had a great time farting around the ME/South Asia!


 
I accidentally went to some island between Japan and Korea in the winter and had to wait 12 hours for the ferry back, everyone was being sick and rolling around crying on the boat.  Got my stamp though.    Your adventures sound more successful.


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2012)

ajdown said:


> The law's the law. Is it really that difficult for them to get proper visas to be here legally?


Ajdown, I wouldn't wish the paperwork and the not so merry hours spent queueing outside Lunar House (and inside it) on anyone except those who claim that too many people are allowed in.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> But did he get put in some G4S prison while he was waiting for his flight? Or did they let him make his own arrangements?
> 
> In Korea you get detained at the airport like a proper bad criminal if you're even 1 day over your visa, though they have internet and bring you kimbap (like sushi) apparently.


No. Because he left of his own accord as soon as he realised he'd fallen foul of the rules. No one had to come and find him.


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## quimcunx (Aug 27, 2012)

TruXta said:


> No can do. We can only do one extension on our visit visas, did that the first month. Now we're looking at visa runs over the border to Oman. One of the reasons we've been travelling monthly is just this issue. That and it's nice to get out of this hole.


 
So can't you do another visa run over the border? 


Applying to stay can be an expensive business.  Was recently told of a US citizen who had forked out about £1k and turned down because his manager made a mistake on the form.  He will have to fork out another £1k to apply again. If you're on minimum wage it's hard to find that sort of money.  Also if you're on a student visa but working maybe you just try and keep your head down and not bother applying to extend.


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> So can't you do another visa run over the border?


 
Oh we can. Just not sure we're bothered.


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## Dan U (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Do Australians etc get rounded-up and detained when they over stay their visas? Or do we just do this to 'undesirable' immigrants?


 
I know a few Australians who have been busted by their employers for overstaying a work visa and then have skipped the UK via the Eurostar to Paris before UKBA can get on to them. Apparently the Eurostar doesn't give a stamp on exit or something so it is the least likely route to get you an 'Overstayer' stamp in your passport and a 10 year ban from the UK.

I've also known at least one Australian refused entry to the UK full stop at Heathrow. Her boyfriend got let in but she stupidly said she was a hairdresser for her job and she had a lot of hairdressing equipment in her luggage so they refused her a holiday visa and put her on the next plane home.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Aug 27, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Oh we can. Just not sure we're bothered.


 
I will send you a cake with a file in it if you get detained.


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## nagapie (Aug 27, 2012)

The laws that allow Commonwealth visas for people from those countries are constantly tightened up for South Africans. We are not as desirable as Aussies and Kiwis, probably but not only because some are black.


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> I will send you a cake with a file in it if you get detained.


 
We might do a quick trip to Oman to avoid any hassle. OH needs to come back on a regular basis after we move out so we can't afford to fuck up too badly.


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## Boudicca (Aug 27, 2012)

I knew an Ecuadorian who went to renew her student visa, but it had run out the day before.  She was put in a cell overnight in Croydon and on a plane back to Ecuador the next day.


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## TruXta (Aug 27, 2012)




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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> So can't you do another visa run over the border?
> 
> 
> Applying to stay can be an expensive business. Was recently told of a US citizen who had forked out about £1k and turned down because his manager made a mistake on the form. He will have to fork out another £1k to apply again. If you're on minimum wage it's hard to find that sort of money. Also if you're on a student visa but working maybe you just try and keep your head down and not bother applying to extend.


 
An American colleague of mine had something similar recently applying for indefinite leave - he'd spent £1400 (and had to travel to Stalybridge) and was refused because HR had made an error four years ago when completing the forms for his last visa. Luckily the immigration guy pointed it out to him and told him it would be declined before he formally submitted it or he would have lost the money.


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

ajdown said:


> The law's the law. Is it really that difficult for them to get proper visas to be here legally?


 
It has been getting more and more difficult. Also people who traditionally had no problem getting visas - like Filipinos who work in NHS- are now finding it more difficult. Its not the law being changed its the regulations. My Filipino friend tried to get a 5 year visa to work here in NHS he showed me the "form" which was size of small book. Also written in legalese that I found hard to understand. The whole thing was designed to make it harder.

My Brazilian friend went back to Brazil as it was so difficult to renew her visa. Its getting ridiculous. She told me that people coming from Brazil now on a learning English visa will be not able to take a part time job. It used to be 20 hours and then it was 10 hours. She said that in a few years Brazilians will not be coming to UK.

The system imo is set up to make it easy to send in UKBA to deport them. Realistically people work more than there allowed hours. Its all about placating those who get concerned about immigration. Which revolves mainly about keeping wages low. 

As for Australians. There is a hard line against them as well now. I was chatting to one I know who is going back as his visa is expiring. Told him years ago lots of Aussies overstayed. No one bothered. Only got sent back if arrested by police for some drunken fight etc.

I know or meet a lot of people on visas. They do not bother me. This whole tightening up is distasteful.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> But did he get put in some G4S prison while he was waiting for his flight? Or did they let him make his own arrangements?
> 
> In Korea you get detained at the airport like a proper bad criminal if you're even 1 day over your visa, though they have internet and bring you kimbap (like sushi) apparently.


Better to be detained at the airport than at some hellhole prison


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## Miss-Shelf (Aug 27, 2012)

so much of the london economy would shut down if people from out of europe union weren't keeping it going*

London schools for instance have been kept going by good overseas teachers who often have to not only jump through immigration and visa nonsense but also get paid less while going for qualified status in this country despite being qualified already

*this is my unsubstantiated opinion before someone brings statistics into it, but I bet its right


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2012)

I can't blame people for wanting to live here either. We were all immigrants at some point.

But there has to be some sort of procedure.

We are hardly unique in having a visa system and if you have one it must be enforced.


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

nagapie said:


> The laws that allow Commonwealth visas for people from those countries are constantly tightened up for South Africans. We are not as desirable as Aussies and Kiwis, probably but not only because some are black.


 
A lot of Afrikaners used to come to UK to work in Security ( there favourite job lots of experience in SA).Ones I chatted to had been interviewed and employed by security firm in SA. So started work straight away when they came here. Apparently the Rand / Sterling exchange rate meant they could save money.

They used to get 2 year work visas. This has now stopped and they no longer come here. Whole offices used to have Afrikaners as security.

Used to piss the Black Africans security off. They told me that the SA security firms only employed Afrikaners.

I think the stopping of the 2 year work visas is connected to EU. As EU workers are supposed to be offered jobs first.


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## Mr Smin (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm considering moving to Australia and I was touched to see their immigration office has a pdf welcome booklet for migrants, with advice on tax, laws, healthcare and so on. Out of curiosity I looked for something similar for people coming to the UK - and found nothing.


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## Miss-Shelf (Aug 27, 2012)

leanderman said:


> I can't blame people for wanting to live here either. We were all immigrants at some point.
> 
> But there has to be some sort of procedure.
> 
> We are hardly unique in having a visa system and if you have one it must be enforced.


one of the points some other posters were making was that punitive enforcements happen because it's easy to target workers or students whose visas have a slight inconsistency or overstay
so people who have made lives here and a positive contribution get deported in order to keep action on immigration in the news


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

leanderman said:


> I can't blame people for wanting to live here either. We were all immigrants at some point.
> 
> But there has to be some sort of procedure.
> 
> We are hardly unique in having a visa system and if you have one it must be enforced.


 
So do u think the present procedures are fine then? See my post #32


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> one of the points some other posters were making was that punitive enforcements happen because it's easy to target workers or students whose visas have a slight inconsistency or overstay
> so people who have made lives here and a positive contribution get deported in order to keep action on immigration in the news


 
That is what I think is happening. It makes the Government give impression its doing something about immigration. It achieves nothing. The issues around immigration are mainly about pressure on service and employers using it to keep wages down.

Low wages and poor working conditions are due to employers not immigrants. Pressure on services is due to the unequal distribution of wealth. And I blame all three parties for this not just Tories.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> That is what I think is happening. It makes the Government give impression its doing something about immigration. It achieves nothing. The issues around immigration are mainly about pressure on service and employers using it to keep wages down.


 
I agree that enforcement teams tend to go for the easy targets (whether it is visas or parking or nuisance or...). It is hugely irritating. I don't think they should get away with only targeting the easy options. That said, the easy targets are as responsible as anyone else for sorting their own visas out and I don't think the government's reluctance (if that is what it is) to deal with tougher cases can be used as justification for anyone else's infringement of the rules.


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## nagapie (Aug 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I think the stopping of the 2 year work visas is connected to EU. As EU workers are supposed to be offered jobs first.


 
I hadn't realised the 2 year visa didn't exist at all anymore! So Australians and Kiwis don't get those anymore either?


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I hadn't realised the 2 year visa didn't exist at all anymore! So Australians and Kiwis don't get those anymore either?


 
I don't know.


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## The39thStep (Aug 27, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> so much of the london economy would shut down if people from out of europe union weren't keeping it going*
> 
> London schools for instance have been kept going by good overseas teachers who often have to not only jump through immigration and visa nonsense but also get paid less while going for qualified status in this country despite being qualified already
> 
> *this is my unsubstantiated opinion before someone brings statistics into it, but I bet its right


 
Is there any reason why those jobs couldn't be filled by those with British passports?


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## ajdown (Aug 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Is there any reason why those jobs couldn't be filled by those with British passports?


 
... or just those here legally?

Presumably a lot of those here on dodgy grounds or expired visa's are hired in full knowledge of that, and are paid 'cash in hand' rather than being registered workers, paying tax etc?

Yes, it's as much the employers faults for not checking the status of those they are employing.


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> So do u think the present procedures are fine then? See my post #32


 
Well, the procedures seem to be colour-blind at least, according to posts on this thread.

And the tightening is a typical reponse to abuse of the visa system by a minority (a kind of tragedy of the commons).

Of course one issue is how large we want this country to grow.

London's population grew 14% from 2001-2011 (Tower Hamlets 29%).

And Britain's 62million will become 70million by 2032, according to the ONS.

If we build enough schools and stuff, this won't be a problem. But will we?


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## Brainaddict (Aug 27, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Of course one issue is how large we want this country to grow.
> 
> London's population grew 14% from 2001-2011 (Tower Hamlets 29%).
> 
> ...


 
I tend to find that, if one doesn't actually subscribe to some kind of malthusian enthusiasm for the death of the poor, most 'population' problems that people talk about are actually wealth distribution problems. Your post is edging towards noticing this but in case you hadn't thought about it in exactly those terms I thought I'd point it out 

On UKBA raids, New Cross Gate station is a favourite checkpoint for them. Did these kind of random inland checks always happen in this country or is it a response to the shift to the right in the immigration debate?


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## Miss-Shelf (Aug 27, 2012)

Some of the growth of london was due to less mobility of families leaving londonbecause  of the recession.  Tower Hamlets for instance did not forecast some of the growth of child population and the need for school reception places because it was unexpected stasis

much of londons growth is also due to european union migration and not visa overstayers


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## Ozone (Aug 27, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I agree that enforcement teams tend to go for the easy targets (whether it is visas or parking or nuisance or...). It is hugely irritating. I don't think they should get away with only targeting the easy options. That said, the easy targets are as responsible as anyone else for sorting their own visas out and I don't think the government's reluctance (if that is what it is) to deal with tougher cases can be used as justification for anyone else's infringement of the rules.


 
I'm not sure I agree that they are "going for easy targets to keep immigration in the news...." I would have thought it would be much harder to keep track of these people/students/people working in shops/butcheries etc - A lot of immigrants who are here illegally won't be staying at a registered address or paying NI/tax etc, so it would be much harder to keep tabs on them or take action/ find them once their visas expire. While I don't agree with the way they are going about their business, I'm not sure how else the UKBA are expected to deal with it? Obviously publicising these raids isn't good PR, and its sad that it's so much harder to get into or stay in the UK, but I think a lot of this has to do with EU migration.


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2012)

Brainaddict said:


> I tend to find that, if one doesn't actually subscribe to some kind of malthusian enthusiasm for the death of the poor, most 'population' problems that people talk about are actually wealth distribution problems. Your post is edging towards noticing this but in case you hadn't thought about it in exactly those terms I thought I'd point it out  quote]


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2012)

Brainaddict said:


> I tend to find that, if one doesn't actually subscribe to some kind of malthusian enthusiasm for the death of the poor, most 'population' problems that people talk about are actually wealth distribution problems. Your post is edging towards noticing this but in case you hadn't thought about it in exactly those terms I thought I'd point it out
> 
> On UKBA raids, New Cross Gate station is a favourite checkpoint for them. Did these kind of random inland checks always happen in this country or is it a response to the shift to the right in the immigration debate?


 
Absolutely, wealth is becoming more concentrated. And QEasing is playing a part


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## gabi (Aug 28, 2012)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> Do Australians etc get rounded-up and detained when they over stay their visas?


 
Yes. I know several antipodeans who've been thrown out. They didn't even give them time to pack their stuff.


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## uk benzo (Aug 28, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Is there any reason why those jobs couldn't be filled by those with British passports?


 

Because to be quite frank with you, most of the jobs undertaken by recent economic migrants are those that are deemed by British society as undesirable- not paying enough, too much hard work, too dirty etc.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2012)

dylanredefined said:


> We gave them Mark Thatcher after all its a fair exchange .



He's since been kicked out.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

uk benzo said:


> Because to be quite frank with you, most of the jobs undertaken by recent economic migrants are those that are deemed by British society as undesirable- not paying enough, too much hard work, too dirty etc.


 
divisive crap


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## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2012)

uk benzo said:


> Because to be quite frank with you, most of the jobs undertaken by recent economic migrants are those that are deemed by British society as undesirable- not paying enough, too much hard work, too dirty etc.



When did British society deem so?


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

uk benzo said:


> Because to be quite frank with you, most of the jobs undertaken by recent economic migrants are those that are deemed by British society as undesirable- not paying enough, too much hard work, too dirty etc.


 
I oppose the actions of the UKBA and the way that its being made difficult to come here to UK.

However comments like yours are just a wind up. This is the kind of things employers say. That British workers wont do these jobs and are lazy etc. The fact is business use immigration as one way to keep wages and conditions down. I do not blame migrants for this.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I oppose the actions of the UKBA and the way that its being made difficult to come here to UK.
> 
> However comments like yours are just a wind up. This is the kind of things employers say. That British workers wont do these jobs and are lazy etc. The fact is business use immigration as one way to keep wages and conditions down. I do not blame migrants for this.


 

fucks me right off to be fair. These jobs are dirty and they are low paid and they are what I've done pretty much my whole life. When you've little other options thats what you do. Cleaning, humpin and lumping boxes in a warehouse, unloading lorries etc. Yes you do work alongside a high proportion of recent migrants from the sub continent or eastern europe but they are in the same boat- no other choice save stay at home in even shittier conditions wrt work. How many centuries of w/c struggle for a living wage and safe conditions to work in- then tory governments kick the fuck out of industry, make housing unnafordable and tell the w/c they are lazy. You expect it from tories, they are ever the cunt, but hearing it come from liberal left wingers is fucking galling- what Jones terms 'socially acceptable liberalbigotry'

cunts


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 28, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> When did British society deem so?


 
Arguably, some time during the Thatcher era, when many of the the crappier jobs went from crappy, but in most cases reasonably secure and unionised to even crappier, insecure, and even worse paid.

The (rarely expressed in so many words, but not entirely subtle) message that people in the crappier jobs should be treated like shit by both employers and customers, and that working class / service sector jobs are not something that should be aspired to has been fairly constant, yet the ruling classes act surprised when a chunk of working class people don't aspire to working class jobs any more and have been encouraged by 'divide and rule' to believe that working (for example) in a food establishment is 'beneath them'.

In the same way that the big business media encourages a "the rules don't apply to me, fuck everybody else" attitude in the middle class and call it "broken britain" when the plebs adopt the same attitude...


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## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Arguably, some time during the Thatcher era, when many of the the crappier jobs went from crappy, but in most cases reasonably secure and unionised to even crappier, insecure, and even worse paid.
> 
> The (rarely expressed in so many words, but not entirely subtle) message that people in the crappier jobs should be treated like shit by both employers and customers, and that working class / service sector jobs are not something that should be aspired to has been fairly constant, yet the ruling classes act surprised when a chunk of working class people don't aspire to working class jobs any more and have been encouraged by 'divide and rule' to believe that working (for example) in a food establishment is 'beneath them'.
> 
> In the same way that the big business media encourages a "the rules don't apply to me, fuck everybody else" attitude in the middle class and call it "broken britain" when the plebs adopt the same attitude...


 
Where is the evidence that working class people don't aspire to working class jobs anymore?  Most of the evidence says that there aren't enough of these jobs not that there aren't enough applicants.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 28, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Where is the evidence that working class people don't aspire to working class jobs anymore? Most of the evidence says that there aren't enough of these jobs not that there aren't enough applicants.


 
First off, I repeat "a chunk of working class people" - I don't believe it's possible to generalise about any group.

Secondly, quite a few w/c people have been aired in the media saying they wouldn't consider X sort of job - the media has usually taken this as an indication of laziness / work-shy-ness, rather than considering the aspects I mentioned such as the shitty attitude of employers towards employees in the sort of job, and the attitudes the media has embedded.

Then I've seen the way (again, some) people, even if unemployed, feel they can 'talk down' to people like cafe staff, bus drivers and so on.

A brief bit of web search has found this ("Avoiding the ‘McJobs’: unemployed job seekers and attitudes to service work; Strathclyde University, 2004)




> The analysis is based upon a survey of 300 registered unemployed people in Scotland. A substantial minority of respondents ruled out entry-level service work in retail and hospitality under any circumstances.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> However, on the demand side, service employers must seek to ‘abolish the McJob’, by ensuring that even entry-level positions offer realistic salaries, decent work conditions and opportunities for personal development.


 
I'm really not sure what the answer is (apart from de-shittifying the attitudes of a lot of employers, and putting more effort into enforcing employment law - and likewise landlords and tenancy law, as it's all part of the same picture)

But there's also attitudes to change - and attitudes to a lot of things.  Again for example (and again not saying 'all') a fair chunk of the working class have been conditioned by the tory media to believe that trade unions are a force for bad and don't offer them anything.  This isn't going to change overnight.

The current situation does not benefit recent immigrants who get exploited by shitty employers and landlords, it does not benefit the 'indigenous' working class (I'm not saying how long you have to be here to become indigenous) who either get the same exploitation or get shut out of / give up on the labour market because they won't put up with it.

Those employers who are happy to employ "illegals" will usually also disregard "red tape" (as the tory press would put it) like minimum wage, other aspects of employment law such as H&S, working time and so on, and in many cases also provide incredibly shit "accommodation" which breaches housing law.  The system and the media demonises the "illegal immigrants" and doesn't often say so much about the employers.

The bosses and landlords of course benefit from the squeeze they can put on wages and rents, and through their media, they can divide and rule - scapegoating the immigrants for "taking our jobs and houses" and the indigenous working class for being "lazy" while cashing in.


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## the button (Aug 28, 2012)

Aaaaaanyway, here's some bust cards for people stopped by UKBA:

https://network23.org/antiraids/immigration-checks-know-your-rights/english/

See menu at the top ("Immigration checks: know your rights") for versions in different languages.


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

the button said:


> Aaaaaanyway, here's some bust cards for people stopped by UKBA:
> 
> https://network23.org/antiraids/immigration-checks-know-your-rights/english/
> 
> See menu at the top ("Immigration checks: know your rights") for versions in different languages.


 
Interesting website. Also has advice of what u can do if u see someone stopped. The advice given is about being stopped by UKBA. Do you now what the situation is if they raid a premises? As happened in Brixton. Some of the shops in Brixton open directly onto street. Which is why some passers by commented on raids.

I get the impression the same applies? That are not supposed to target places that have a lot of ethnic minority workers purely due to that?

I do know a long while back my friends workplace got raided. But they came for one only and did not question anyone else. They asked for that person by name. Could have been that the person had a argument with someone and they told the UKBA about them.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2012)

ajdown said:


> The law's the law.



Is the law always right?


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> one of the points some other posters were making was that punitive enforcements happen because it's easy to target workers or students whose visas have a slight inconsistency or overstay
> so people who have made lives here and a positive contribution get deported in order to keep action on immigration in the news


 
In Evening Standard today (page 12) there is article on London Metropolitan University ( the old Poly in central London) having its status to take people on visas revoked.  Though its more usual to happen to private English language schools. Not well known educational institutions like a University. The Uni in article denied it is a "threat to immigration control".

This is nasty and unpleasant.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Interesting website. Also has advice of what u can do if u see someone stopped. The advice given is about being stopped by UKBA. Do you now what the situation is if they raid a premises? As happened in Brixton. Some of the shops in Brixton open directly onto street. Which is why some passers by commented on raids.
> 
> I get the impression the same applies? That are not supposed to target places that have a lot of ethnic minority workers purely due to that?
> 
> I do know a long while back my friends workplace got raided. But they came for one only and did not question anyone else. They asked for that person by name. Could have been that the person had a argument with someone and they told the UKBA about them.



It might be something to do with the fact that employers are legally required to do certain things to make sure they don't employ anyone that doesn't have the legal right to live and work in the UK. You probably don't want all the boring detail on that, but the end result is that premises can be raided if there's reasonable suspicion that someone is working there illegally. The bust card still applies though.


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

Brainaddict said:


> I tend to find that, if one doesn't actually subscribe to some kind of malthusian enthusiasm for the death of the poor, most 'population' problems that people talk about are actually wealth distribution problems. Your post is edging towards noticing this but in case you hadn't thought about it in exactly those terms I thought I'd point it out
> 
> On UKBA raids, New Cross Gate station is a favourite checkpoint for them. Did these kind of random inland checks always happen in this country or is it a response to the shift to the right in the immigration debate?


 
These random checks did not happen that much in my memory. The UKBA was set up in 2008 according to Wickipedia. Id say yes it is a response to a shift to right on immigration.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2012)

I've dated 'an illegal' before and it's a complete headache of a position to be in. Basically you become a non-person and are ripe for all manner of employment exploitation. Obviously the auto-rightwing counter response is "well, they shouldn't be here anyway, should they?" but human endevours lead people into many a predicament when falling fowl of a system constructed to provide them hardship. I know from experience that the right wing rhetoric about free houses and whatever to all and sundry is complete bollocks. My ex felt unable to seek even basic medical help for anything without fear of being deported.


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## Mr Smin (Aug 28, 2012)

It's an unfortunate choice of words, but all education companies (which includes Universities IMO) are required to 'police' their international students by registering them with UKBA, monitoring their attendance and so on. If they don't pass UKBA's audit, they get their Tier 4 licence revoked. The purpose of this is to stop fake education companies from just dishing out visas for a fee. 
Some of these education companies are grasping fuckers who richly deserved to have their business closed down, but that does make life perhaps even more difficult for their students.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

they get a free house, a car, a blowjob from michael gove and a million pounds!!!11!!! eleven


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I've dated 'an illegal' before and it's a complete headache of a position to be in. Basically you become a non-person and are ripe for all manner of employment exploitation. Obviously the auto-rightwing counter response is "well, they shouldn't be here anyway, should they?" but human endevours lead people into many a predicament when* falling fowl* of a system constructed to provide them hardship. I know from experience that the right wing rhetoric about free houses and whatever to all and sundry is complete bollocks. My ex felt unable to seek even basic medical help for anything without fear of being deported.


 

normally only happens during grouse shoots


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2012)

Foul.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I've dated 'an illegal' before and it's a complete headache of a position to be in. Basically you become a non-person and are ripe for all manner of employment exploitation. Obviously the auto-rightwing counter response is "well, they shouldn't be here anyway, should they?" but human endevours lead people into many a predicament when falling fowl of a system constructed to provide them hardship. I know from experience that the right wing rhetoric about free houses and whatever to all and sundry is complete bollocks. My ex felt unable to seek even basic medical help for anything without fear of being deported.



The employer penalties are quite draconian now, which means that most reputable employers take a lot of care to make sure they don't illegally employ someone. So any illegal employment often results in other abuse e.g. below minimum wage etc, a lot of which already mentioned above.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> The employer penalties are quite draconian now, which means that most reputable employers take a lot of care to make sure they don't illegally employ someone. So any illegal employment often results in other abuse e.g. below minimum wage etc, a lot of which already mentioned above.



She ended up working in a shit job under a cousin's id. So obviously the cousin gained all the NI contributions and tax rebates that were due to her. Cousin had no scruples so none of that was ever recompensed although I suppose the cousin took some kind of risk. Although anyone who 'knew', family or otherwise, were in a position to demand anything they liked with the spectre of "you're illegal, do what we say and we'll keep schtum" always hanging over her and used that to their advantage. She ended up trying to break free from it by applying for all manner of dubious jobs that mainly turned out to be 'training' for a waitress role or whatever that you had to pay for with zero job at the end of it.  makes you want to nuke the human race, tbh.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> She ended up working in a shit job under a cousin's id. So obviously the cousin gained all the NI contributions and tax rebates that were due to her. Cousin had no scruples so none of that was ever recompensed although I suppose the cousin took some kind of risk. Although anyone who 'knew', family or otherwise, were in a position to demand anything they liked with the spectre of "you're illegal, do what we say and we'll keep schtum" always hanging over her and used that to their advantage. She ended up trying to break free from it by applying for all manner of dubious jobs that mainly turned out to be 'training' for a waitress role or whatever that you had to pay for with zero job at the end of it.  makes you want to nuke the human race, tbh.



 They get exploited and live in fear. And get blamed for eating our swans etc. Then you get Beecroft trying to get the Gangmasters legislation revoked, and dodgy gangmasters using the legislation loophole to try and get them all self employed. Recent(ish) report here on human trafficking which includes abuse of migrant workers: http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/..._trafficking_in_scotland-full-report_pdf_.pdf


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## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> In Evening Standard today (page 12) there is article on London Metropolitan University ( the old Poly in central London) having its status to take people on visas revoked. Though its more usual to happen to private English language schools. Not well known educational institutions like a University. The Uni in article denied it is a "threat to immigration control".
> 
> This is nasty and unpleasant.


Glasgow Caledonian Uni got visa sponsorship status suspended by the UKBA last April: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13155936

It was later restored, about 3 weeks after 'concerns were addressed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13361471

It does happen. Is it nasty? Certainly to those on visas - if English is not your first language understanding the labyrinth of regulations will be particularly daunting. But it's an easy way for UKBA to show they're being tough on immigration.


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## Winot (Aug 28, 2012)

Sounds like we need to make it easier for people to come here legally.


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## Giles (Aug 28, 2012)

Shouldn't we do more to help the millions of UK citizens currently on the dole into work before importing more and more people, however hard those people wish to work?

Giles..


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## Greebo (Aug 28, 2012)

Winot said:


> Sounds like we need to make it easier for people to come here legally.


Word - including doing away with the IMHO ridiculous rule that if you need a visa, you've got to have a job lined up with a named employer before you enter the UK and can't switch employers, no matter what reason you might have (eg your employer having lied to you about the hours or nature of the work, paying you late, paying less than the going rate etc).


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## Greebo (Aug 28, 2012)

Giles said:


> Shouldn't we do more to help the millions of UK citizens currently on the dole into work before importing more and more people, however hard those people wish to work?
> 
> Giles..


Shouldn't we also do more to enable people signing on to go and look for work elsewhere in the EU if they want to?  As it is, if you get contribution based  JSA, you can still get that while looking for work in the rest of the EU for a few months, but anyone on income related ("means tested") JSA or Income Support can't.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

you make sense for a change Giles- why should visa be so tied to specific job. If thereis work,let the man doit. Otherwise, well, what the fuck.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2012)

Giles said:


> Shouldn't we do more to help the millions of UK citizens currently on the dole into work before importing more and more people, however hard those people wish to work?
> 
> Giles..


 
The problem is that some greedy employers who seek to extract as much profit from a task as possible will play on an abundance of unemployed job seekers to keep wages low to the point that it even fails to compete with income support!

The solution is to either tax the company owners or landlord scum into oblivion or just kill them.


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> The employer penalties are quite draconian now, which means that most reputable employers take a lot of care to make sure they don't illegally employ someone. So any illegal employment often results in other abuse e.g. below minimum wage etc, a lot of which already mentioned above.


 
Not sure Id call an employer who does not employ illegals "reputable". Some employers will employ people on the books and they are taking a risk. Normally its those who had a visa but its run out or its those who are supposed to work a certain amount of hours but work more. There is a grey area between being legal and totally exploited/ abused. The grey area is the largest one. There are ways around the system but yes it is a risk. The worst cases of abuse are the ones that make the papers.


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> They get exploited and live in fear. And get blamed for eating our swans etc.


 
The Swan eaters are the East Europeans according to Hate Mail. So not visa over-stayers. To be pedantic.. Chatting to my Polish friend about this one as she had heard about it somewhere. Where else but the Mail.

"Of course, stories of immigrants killing and eating swans - once a treasonable offence punishable by hanging because all swans are Crown property and owned by the Queen - have emerged with increasing regularity since Britain's borders were thrown open to Eastern Europe in 2004."



​


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Not sure Id call an employer who does not employ illegals "reputable". Some employers will employ people on the books and they are taking a risk. Normally its those who had a visa but its run out or its those who are supposed to work a certain amount of hours but work more. There is a grey area between being legal and totally exploited/ abused. The grey area is the largest one. There are ways around the system but yes it is a risk. The worst cases of abuse are the ones that make the papers.



I see what you mean, but also bear in mind the employers are meant to do annual checks now in order to make sure they maintain their statutory excuse. 

Pedant re swans


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

Winot said:


> Sounds like we need to make it easier for people to come here legally.


 
We did have an easier system . These changes have been done in last years of Labour Government and continued in this one. Most of these changes do not seem to have gone through parliamentary debate and are changes to regulations. They are a reaction the concern about the level of East European migration here. Which is different issue. Something Government signed up and now cannot change. So non EU are given a hard time instead.

I was chatting to a Black British guy I know recently and he was complaining about Poles. Didn't understand why they are allowed to come here. I said Poland was part of EU know. He said that British Commonwealth citizens used to have these rights. He is correct - when the Commonwealth was expanded after WW2 the idea was a free movement of people in Commonwealth. This did not last long. Gradually its been made more difficult from the 60s onwards. Do not think I need to remind people of why.

So imo immigration debate is not based on some rational "fair" system ( "evidence based policy" as the last Government called it) that is enshrined in law we all should obey because its the law. And because the law is the bedrock of a civilized society.

Its all about politics. Our rulers responding to peoples concerns about a mixture of issues- race, jobs , pressure on services and loss of national identity in a populist fashion. Driven imo also by fears of far right getting vote as in Barking. Its an easy option for Governments to crack down on immigration.


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## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2012)

Mr Smin said:


> It's an unfortunate choice of words, but all education companies (which includes Universities IMO) are required to 'police' their international students by registering them with UKBA, monitoring their attendance and so on. If they don't pass UKBA's audit, they get their Tier 4 licence revoked. The purpose of this is to stop fake education companies from just dishing out visas for a fee.
> Some of these education companies are grasping fuckers who richly deserved to have their business closed down, but that does make life perhaps even more difficult for their students.


'Police' is an unfortunate choice of words? I think it's just the right word. These checks on students go well beyond what would be necessary to stop fake education companies. They are a network of anti-terrorist checks and a way of forcing universities into a policing role to keep an eye on suspicious-acting foreigners. As well as being blatantly xenophobic they are a ridiculous burden on everyone involved and will likely put off sensible students from coming here. That and the quality of degrees sinking faster than a stone in wet stuff


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## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2012)

Mr Smin said:


> It's an unfortunate choice of words, but all education companies (which includes Universities IMO) are required to 'police' their international students by registering them with UKBA, monitoring their attendance and so on. If they don't pass UKBA's audit, they get their Tier 4 licence revoked. The purpose of this is to stop fake education companies from just dishing out visas for a fee.
> Some of these education companies are grasping fuckers who richly deserved to have their business closed down, but that does make life perhaps even more difficult for their students.


 
Following on from what Brainaddict says I knew someone who used to teach EFL and these companies are grasping companies even if they did pass audit. The audit is not about the quality of the courses its all about the paperwork and proof that the students attending. She also said the audits and paperwork were nightmare. Which even reputable places like London Metropolitan Uni can fall foul off. Its the Government making the colleges do the dirty work for them. Not sure I would go as far as Brainaddict but it is definitely intrusive on students. And damages the quality of the teacher / student relationship. As the students know part of there colleges role is now to police them. A friend of mine who was a learning English visa said if you missed a class her college would ring u up threatening to tell the Home Office and that you were putting your visa at risk.

This outsourcing by the State of policing is imo a danger to other groups. Its a slippery slope where our employers/ teachers etc start to potentially be expected to police us for the state. In this I think Brainaddict has potentially a point.


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## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I agree that enforcement teams tend to go for the easy targets (whether it is visas or parking or nuisance or...). It is hugely irritating. I don't think they should get away with only targeting the easy options. That said, the easy targets are as responsible as anyone else for sorting their own visas out and I don't think the government's reluctance (if that is what it is) to deal with tougher cases can be used as justification for anyone else's infringement of the rules.


 
I think some of my other posts cover this. #86 

In London there is a lot I turn a blind eye to. If it is not affecting my life ( or my friends/ local community) Im not bothered if people infringe the rules. Especially when the goal posts keep moving. As is the case with visas.

When I shop in Brixton I don't wonder how many people here are illegal immigrants or visa "abusers". When I'm in the Eritrean internet I don't start asking them the present status of there asylum here. I chat to them in here and they are friendly lot. As far as I'm concerned that's good enough for me.

Nor do I like to see the State picking on some of the weakest here to make themselves look big. Nor do I have a lot of time for the people in UKBA when they go on strike.

One of the better aspect of being British ,that is disappearing imo, is minding ones own business unless someone/something is bothering you. An aspect of being British that I have had people from abroad comment on ( favourably).


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## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2012)

This was posted up on my Diaspora


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## the button (Aug 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Interesting website. Also has advice of what u can do if u see someone stopped. The advice given is about being stopped by UKBA. Do you now what the situation is if they raid a premises? As happened in Brixton. Some of the shops in Brixton open directly onto street. Which is why some passers by commented on raids.
> 
> I get the impression the same applies? That are not supposed to target places that have a lot of ethnic minority workers purely due to that?


Sorry, the website & the bust-card is the extent of my knowledge on the subject.  I found out about it when UKBA were targeting people (well, black people, anyway) waiting at the bus-stop at New X bus garage. Write-up here:

http://www.solfed.org.uk/?q=south-l...everywhere-new-cross-bus-stop-latest-hot-spot


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2012)

the button said:


> Sorry, the website & the bust-card is the extent of my knowledge on the subject.  I found out about it when UKBA were targeting people (well, black people, anyway) waiting at the bus-stop at New X bus garage. Write-up here:
> 
> http://www.solfed.org.uk/?q=south-l...everywhere-new-cross-bus-stop-latest-hot-spot


 
Interesting article. Does not surprise me. I was chatting to a Bulgarian in the internet cafe. Anyway we got chatting about Eastern Europe and Bulgaria. As I know a lot of East Europeans. Bulgarians and Romanians unlike the Poles have restrictions on them coming here. He told me he was stopped by 2 cops near Victoria as they thought he was pick pocket. ( As I said to him he was Eastern European looking). They asked for ID when he showed them his Bulgarian passport they got really interested. They searched him and checked his ID. As it is well known that Bulgarians are all criminals.

As he said the Bulgarian mafia don't do pick pocketing they do serious drug import export and people trafficking. Bulgaria is on crossroads of Europe and well placed for these kinds of business. Also in Bulgaria politics, business and organised crime are all linked. Though he did say the new PM of Bulgaria is former mafia boss so knows how to deal with them. 

So these kinds of stop and search based on racial profile do go on. Especially around the issue of peoples right to stay here.


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