# Joker trailer



## krtek a houby (Apr 4, 2019)

This looks a bit more meaty than Jared Leto's performance


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## fucthest8 (Apr 4, 2019)

OOOOH


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## mwgdrwg (Apr 4, 2019)

This looks incredible.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 4, 2019)

Not usually a fan of comic book based stuff, but that actually looks good.


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## Lord Camomile (Apr 4, 2019)

Yeah, alright, I'm curious...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 4, 2019)

I hope it’s as character focused as the trailer suggests, rather than the usual superhero cgi explosion yawn fest most of them turn out to be.


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## ruffneck23 (Apr 4, 2019)

not feeling it tbh, although I do like the lead actor, so il probably go and see it


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## ska invita (Apr 4, 2019)

Theres a (big) touch of Taxi Driver about this I think


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## mwgdrwg (Apr 4, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Theres a (big) touch of Taxi Driver about this I think



...and King of Comedy. De Niro is in it!


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 4, 2019)

Tried to watch suicide squad again last night. Leto, even in his four minutes of screen time, was awful. This seems like it'll be the opposite of that so I'm in.


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## Lord Camomile (Apr 4, 2019)




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## Cid (Apr 4, 2019)

Obviously, given DC/WB's recent track record, gonna reserve judgment, but yeah - potential that they've got back on track.


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## ska invita (Apr 4, 2019)

Is this film going to have batman in it? 
Thats put me off again if so


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## Ax^ (Apr 4, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Is this film going to have batman in it?
> Thats put me off again if so



possible as it has been reported that the next batman will have a noir feel to it

the Joker is set in the 90's as this is DC i'd suspect they think that would count 


it has been said phoenix will appear is Birds of Prey, I hope not, but then again do we want to see the suicide squad joker again


From the trailer i'm getting excited but can they pull it off


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## DexterTCN (Apr 4, 2019)

Director previously directed the Hangover movies, Starsky & Hutch and Road Trip.

And wrote Borat.

Some big names involved though, might be good.   I have plenty of time for Phoenix.


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## krtek a houby (Apr 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Director previously directed the Hangover movies, Starsky & Hutch and Road Trip.
> 
> And wrote Borat.
> 
> Some big names involved though, might be good.   I have plenty of time for Phoenix.



I remember having misgivings over the director of Beetlejuice taking on Batman, back in the day 

This looks good. And I'm fine if Bats isn't in it. I think it would work better without him. Although, that kid in the trailer could be young Bruce Wayne...


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 5, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Is this film going to have batman in it?
> Thats put me off again if so



No.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2019)

Cid said:


> Obviously, given DC/WB's recent track record, gonna reserve judgment, but yeah - potential that they've got back on track.



This doesn't seem to be tied in to the rest of their crappy universe which is a good sign.


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## T & P (Sep 6, 2019)

Final trailer is out.



From what I've read so far the film is not perfect though the general consensus is still very favourable, but Phoenix's performance in particular is being widely praised


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## krtek a houby (Sep 6, 2019)

Film already being discussed as right wing and a call to arms for incels. Kinda.

'Incel' violence is horrific, but Joker is complex, and doesn't take sides


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 6, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Film already being discussed as right wing and a call to arms for incels. Kinda.
> 
> 'Incel' violence is horrific, but Joker is complex, and doesn't take sides


If that final trailer is anything to go by that take seems apposite. No laughs, we already live in a shit world full of damaged kids who go out and commit violence. This seems massively misjudged.


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## krtek a houby (Sep 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> If that final trailer is anything to go by that take seems apposite. No laughs, we already live in a shit world full of damaged kids who go out and commit violence. This seems massively misjudged.



Won't know it, til we see it, I guess. As long as nobody is shooting up theatres


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## 8ball (Sep 6, 2019)

T & P said:


> Final trailer is out.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've read so far the film is not perfect though the general consensus is still very favourable, but Phoenix's performance in particular is being widely praised




Trailer looks kind of interesting.  I was pleased not to see any obvious bat suggestions.


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## krtek a houby (Sep 6, 2019)

8ball said:


> Trailer looks kind of interesting.  I was pleased not to see any obvious bat suggestions.



Yeah, don't want any Batman cameos etc


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## 8ball (Sep 6, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Yeah, don't want any Batman cameos etc



Not even a reference to the Wayne family*, I was half-expecting something of that ilk.

* - unless fairly well hidden on a street sign or something...


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## ruffneck23 (Oct 3, 2019)

out tomorrow


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 3, 2019)

I'm not a fan of the Batman films really...but I think this could be brilliant.


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## Cid (Oct 3, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Film already being discussed as right wing and a call to arms for incels. Kinda.
> 
> 'Incel' violence is horrific, but Joker is complex, and doesn't take sides



I suppose we'll see... It may just end up obviously being that. It would certainly fit better into the DC's output if it was. But there is a danger of making it exactly that just because of the way it's been interpreted.

That said, a brief peruse of google does point to Phillips being a bit of a cunt. Well, like I said - we'll see.


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## Yossarian (Oct 3, 2019)

I'm probably still going to see this, but Todd Phillips has sounded like so much of a twat in recent interviews that I wouldn't be surprised if his next big project was an Ayn Rand adaptation.


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## rekil (Oct 3, 2019)

Todd Phillips is indeed a knob who claims nobody can make comedy anymore because of the pc brigade.


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## ruffneck23 (Oct 3, 2019)

Before he was Joker, Joaquin Phoenix was Superboy and it will make you cring


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## krtek a houby (Oct 4, 2019)

Well, it's dark, that's for sure. Possibly the darkest DC adaptation I've seen. And Phoenix is sensational and the least showiest incarnation of the Joker yet. Not only do we get the obvious Scorsese influences but possibly a bit of _Falling Down_? Also, nice to see _Atlanta_'s Zazie Beetz and Brian Tyree Henry.

One problem I had was 



Spoiler



the depiction of protesters but the elite don't come out of it looking great, either. Wayne is a prick.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 4, 2019)

I’ve just watched it. I thought it was magnificent.
The unraveling and coming apart of a deindustrialised city, society and a person was utterly immersive. It’s brilliantly filmed and scored. Phoenix is superb and, given I don’t normally make much of this genre, I’m amazed how much I liked it.

A post industrial nightmare. Dark, violent, tense as fuck and political. In the key scene the Joker’s social worker says: ‘they don’t give a shit about people like you, and they don’t give a shit about people like me’


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 4, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve just watched it. I thought it was magnificent.
> The unraveling and coming apart of a deindustrialised city, society and a person was utterly immersive. It’s brilliantly filmed and scored. Phoenix is superb and, given I don’t normally make much of this genre, I’m amazed how much I liked it.
> 
> A post industrial nightmare. Dark, violent, tense as fuck and political. In the key scene the Joker’s social worker says: ‘they don’t give a shit about people like you, and they don’t give a shit about people like me’


How would you answer the criticism leveled at it that it's a rallying call for incels Smokeandsteam ?


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## JudithB (Oct 4, 2019)

All my kids are gutted because Mummy hadn't realised it was a 15 oops

I'm thinking that will add to the movie.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 4, 2019)

S☼I said:


> How would you answer the criticism leveled at it that it's a rallying call for incels Smokeandsteam ?



The film is, at its core, about the collective disintegration of a capitalist society - mental, political, cultural and social.

So I can see how’s it’s possible to construct that argument, but I’d suggest it’s one that’s badly wide of the mark. If anything it’s more a commentary on how capitalism provokes a collective and deep mental health crisis.  Have you got a link to an article or review that adopts an ‘incel rallying call’ reading of the film?


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## Yossarian (Oct 4, 2019)

I think Stephanie Zacharek at Time was one of the critics Phillips took exception to.



> the movie lionizes and glamorizes Arthur even as it shakes its head, faux-sorrowfully, over his violent behavior. There’s an aimless subplot involving a neighbor in Arthur’s apartment building, played by Zazie Beetz, in an underdeveloped role. ... Arthur has a crush on her, and though he does her no harm, there’s still something creepily entitled about his attentiveness to her. He could easily be adopted as the patron saint of incels.



https://time.com

But it sounds like Anthony Lane at the New Yorker might be nearer the mark.



> “Joker” is not a great leap forward, or a deep dive into our collective unconscious, let alone a work of art. It’s a product. All the pre-launch rumblings, the rants and the raves, testify to a cunning provocation, and, if we yield to it, we’re not joining a debate; we’re offering our services, unpaid, to the marketing department at Warner Bros.



Todd Phillips’s “Joker” Is No Laughing Matter


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## DexterTCN (Oct 4, 2019)

That was magnificent, I have to go back and watch it again.   

I have stuff to say about the response to the film but they're just looking for the spotlight so nah.

Joachim absolutely deserves an Oscar for this, Ledger can rest in peace because someone has taken the torch.   The people that have made this film have stretched the superhero/villain universe, challenged it.

Incredible.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 4, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'm not a fan of the Batman films really...but I think this could be brilliant.



The problem with Batman is that he is a fundamentally boring character, as well as the whole fascist wank fantasy thing he has going on. The villains have always been much more interesting. Jaoquins performance looks like it will be a classic.

This looks fantastic. The trailers, 5* reviews and marketing have thoroughly whetted my appetite. My girlfriend, who is utterly against action movies on general principle, is gonna watch it with me on Monday. I don't think either of us will be disappointed.


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## DexterTCN (Oct 4, 2019)

Jon-of-arc said:


> The problem with Batman is that he is a fundamentally boring character, as well as the whole fascist wank fantasy thing he has going on. The villains have always been much more interesting. Jaoquins performance looks like it will be a classic.
> 
> This looks fantastic. The trailers, 5* reviews and marketing have thoroughly whetted my appetite. My girlfriend, who is utterly against action movies on general principle, is gonna watch it with me on Monday. I don't think either of us will be disappointed.


You can tell her it's not an action movie.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 4, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> You can tell her it's not an action movie.



She's sold on it already, but is there no action?


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 4, 2019)

Jon-of-arc said:


> She's sold on it already, but is there no action?



There is. But it’s not an action movie


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## DexterTCN (Oct 4, 2019)

Jon-of-arc said:


> She's sold on it already, but is there no action?


I only said it isn't an action movie. 

Never you mind.   Come back on Monday night...what are you doing here?  Fuck off.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 5, 2019)

JudithB said:


> All my kids are gutted because Mummy hadn't realised it was a 15 oops
> 
> I'm thinking that will add to the movie.



Definitely not a kids movie. I remember seeing young kids at the Heath Ledger film and thinking it might be too much for them, but this Joker is more... real ... and terrifying for that reason.


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## spanglechick (Oct 5, 2019)

It’s a thriller of sorts. 

Not an action film or in any sense a superhero film. 

It’s a treatise on subjectivity and the subjective nature of reality.  

It isn’t a rallying call to incels.  It might be a rallying call to the poor.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 5, 2019)

Yeah, just to be clear I wasn't claiming it was that kind of film; I'd just seen it described as such on links on this thread and wanted an opinion from urbz who have seen it.


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## spanglechick (Oct 5, 2019)

We took the sixth form acting and film studies students to a 3.15 showing yesterday.  

Nice way to end the week...


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## bellaozzydog (Oct 5, 2019)

Ticket booked for 1415


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 5, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> It’s a thriller of sorts.
> 
> Not an action film or in any sense a superhero film.
> 
> ...



If you wanted to theorise it you could write it as a Mark Fisher type ‘ghosts of my life’ examination of capitalism and the soul of humanity. A society haunted by a cancelled future. But a) I don’t think that’s what Todd Philips intends and b) it would be a bit pretentious. However, it’s a better reading of it than accounts that suggest it’s some sort of incel promo


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## bellaozzydog (Oct 5, 2019)

No idea how the incel critique comes in, unless you link it to



Spoiler



Arthur’s non existent relationship with neighbour



Possibly not the film to perk me up on a Saturday afternoon. 
I found a fair bit of it clunky and obvious. 
But as per usual Phoenix is spell binding (if disturbing) 

Recommended but I wouldn’t take your PoF date to watch it


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## moonsi til (Oct 5, 2019)

Went this morning- thoroughly enjoyed it. 

Stand out quote from his writing pad about the worst thing about having a mental illness is people expecting you to behave like you don’t.


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## 8115 (Oct 5, 2019)

I haven't even seen the trailer and I think it's going to be shit.

I also suspect I'm going to find the portrayal of the joker from a mental health point of view deeply offensive. I've heard the clip from from the trailer where he says "all I have are negative thoughts". Well, I know how that feels, but you don't catch me turning into an anti-hero psychopath. I'm surprised more hasn't been made of this.


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## moonsi til (Oct 5, 2019)

I haven’t seen the trailer but my take regarding mental disorder was positive - well in the way that people have to work harder to function which is exhausting.


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## bellaozzydog (Oct 5, 2019)

8115 said:


> I haven't even seen the trailer and I think it's going to be shit.
> 
> I also suspect I'm going to find the portrayal of the joker from a mental health point of view deeply offensive. I've heard the clip from from the trailer where he says "all I have are negative thoughts". Well, I know how that feels, but you don't catch me turning into an anti-hero psychopath. I'm surprised more hasn't been made of this.



Try watching the fucking thing before getting offended by it


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## 8115 (Oct 5, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> Try watching the fucking thing before getting offended by it


I've seen other Batman films. I know the deal with the joker. The basic plot of the film is that an ordinary person has a mental illness and becomes The Joker. Try telling me how that's particularly different to "knife-wielding schizophrenic" headlines.


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## bellaozzydog (Oct 5, 2019)

8115 said:


> I've seen other Batman films. I know the deal with the joker. The basic plot of the film is that an ordinary person has a mental illness and becomes The Joker. Try telling me how that's particularly different to "knife-wielding schizophrenic" headlines.



Fuck off and watch the fillum


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## 8115 (Oct 5, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> Fuck off and watch the fillum


I'm not giving them a penny.


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## bellaozzydog (Oct 5, 2019)

8115 said:


> I'm not giving them a penny.



Well I gave them 19 quid and they gave me a film. Some popcorn and two bottles of doombar

The mental health aspects of jokers life seemed to be dealt with reasonably/sympathetically  enough not to offend me

Caveat I’m not Mark Kermode, Aaron T Beck or the DMS-5


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 5, 2019)

8115 said:


> I haven't even seen the trailer and I think it's going to be shit.
> 
> I also suspect I'm going to find the portrayal of the joker from a mental health point of view deeply offensive.



I don’t think you will. It’s not dealt with as an afterthought or a prop. It addresses, really well, the lack of resources, the misdiagnoses and the othering powerfully


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 5, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> No idea how the incel critique comes in, unless you link it to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Spot on. But if you come away from the film thinking that the spoiler you’ve highlighted is the meta narrative of the film then you haven’t been paying much attention


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## felixthecat (Oct 5, 2019)

An acting masterclass by Joaquin Phoenix.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 5, 2019)

Well, that was dark. I think its the darkest DC project ever and it doesn't feel like a "comic book movie" in any way shape and form.  It feels more like a thriller that dissects the main character coming apart at the seems.  It reminded me more of Falling Down than anything else, except it didn't puss-out with the ending.  It followed Arthur to the cold, gruesome end (or beginning, however you see it).

I don't think it was a "rallying cry for fascism", if anything it was anti-fascist in that it pretty much takes down post-industrial society.  Remember that Batman has always been the rallying cry for authoritarianism.  Its a gimme to portray the Joker as a foil to that.  There's a scene where the joker says "If I were the one lying dead on the ground, you'd step right over my body."  And, in that moment, you know he's speaking the truth.  Overall, this was well done.  The pacing was one of the best I've seen in a modern movie.  It starts out really slow with building character development.  Then, it ups the pace about every fifteen minutes to the last blazing 10 minutes.

And you know what I found most disturbing?  It was that I wasn't allowed to take my purse into the theater.  No costumes were allowed and anyone with a hoodie over their head had to remove it. There was a cop in the theater during the entire show.  Now and then, he'd pop out and look the crowd over.  Every theater in town had an armed cop guarding it.  If you want a sign that post-industrial society is doomed.  That might be it.

Did anyone else pick a seat near an exit?


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 5, 2019)

S☼I said:


> How would you answer the criticism leveled at it that it's a rallying call for incels Smokeandsteam ?



Its more of dissection of what societal forces produce incels, mass shooters, and more mundane disfunction--all for your entertainment of course.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 5, 2019)

8115 said:


> I haven't even seen the trailer and I think it's going to be shit.
> 
> I also suspect I'm going to find the portrayal of the joker from a mental health point of view deeply offensive. I've heard the clip from from the trailer where he says "all I have are negative thoughts". Well, I know how that feels, but you don't catch me turning into an anti-hero psychopath. I'm surprised more hasn't been made of this.



Everyone knows how that feels.


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## spanglechick (Oct 5, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Well, that was dark. I think its the darkest DC project ever and it doesn't feel like a "comic book movie" in any way shape and form.  It feels more like a thriller that dissects the main character coming apart at the seems.  It reminded me more of Falling Down than anything else, except it didn't puss-out with the ending.  It followed Arthur to the cold, gruesome end (or beginning, however you see it).
> 
> I don't think it was a "rallying cry for fascism", if anything it was anti-fascist in that it pretty much takes down post-industrial society.  Remember that Batman has always been the rallying cry for authoritarianism.  Its a gimme to portray the Joker as a foil to that.  There's a scene where the joker says "If I were the one lying dead on the ground, you'd step right over my body."  And, in that moment, you know he's speaking the truth.  Overall, this was well done.  The pacing was one of the best I've seen in a modern movie.  It starts out really slow with building character development.  Then, it ups the pace about every fifteen minutes to the last blazing 10 minutes.
> 
> ...


No.  I and my colleague took a couple of dozen teenagers and their safety didn’t occur to me at all.  

Harder to massacre a cinema audience without firearms.


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## spanglechick (Oct 5, 2019)

The mental health thing isn’t exploitative at all, IMO as someone with more than one long term MH diagnosis.  

Arthur Fleck is someone it’s easy to feel empathy with until quite late in the film - and isn’t ever a total monster.


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## DexterTCN (Oct 5, 2019)

He's redefined Joker's laugh.


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## Gimigimi (Oct 6, 2019)

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I have seen the grim pictures of what the theatres were like opening day in the US.
  
The Sinclair local news has been talking about all the "concerns" about shooters at the opening for this movie every damn day for weeks, I didn't realize it was going to result in this though. Usually the ambiance of a film doesn't start until you're _inside_ the theatre.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 6, 2019)

Michael Moore's take on it

_“On Wednesday night I attended the New York Film Festival and witnessed a cinematic masterpiece, the film that last month won the top prize as the Best Film of the Venice International Film Festival. It’s called ‘Joker’ — and all we Americans have heard about this movie is that we should fear it and stay away from it. We’ve been told it’s violent and sick and morally corrupt — an incitement and celebration of murder. We’ve been told that police will be at every screening this weekend in case of ‘trouble.’ Our country is in deep despair, our constitution is in shreds, a rogue maniac from Queens has access to the nuclear codes — but for some reason, it’s a movie we should be afraid of."_

More here

Michael Moore Calls ‘Joker’ a Masterpiece: ‘The Greater Danger to Society May Be If You Don’t See This Movie’


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## JudithB (Oct 6, 2019)

Seeing Phoenix so wrinkly has made me feel old. Yet to see the film


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## krtek a houby (Oct 6, 2019)

JudithB said:


> Seeing Phoenix so wrinkly has made me feel old. Yet to see the film



His character is kind of child like, mind. I'm also reminded of Gus Van Sant's _To Die For_ (from nearly 25 years ago!!!) with Nicole Kidman and an early role for JP.


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## JudithB (Oct 6, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> His character is kind of child like, mind. I'm also reminded of Gus Van Sant's _To Die For_ (from nearly 25 years ago!!!) with Nicole Kidman and an early role for JP.


I did not know he made a film with Joaquim? I will have to look that up. Thx 
My Own Private Idaho is one of my favourites

ETA - a quick google reminded me of the film. That I have seen lol. Hadn't remembered Joaquim in it. Will have to watch again. Thx again it's a bloody funny movie and the reminder is great


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 6, 2019)

Can’t wait to see this. You know that when even Urban - one of the most critical and cynical corners of internet - are unanimous in their praise of a film that it must be special.


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## emanymton (Oct 6, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Can’t wait to see this. You know that when even Urban - one of the most critical and cynical corners of internet - are unanimous in their praise of a film that it must be special.


I found it pretty dull and very predictable.


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 6, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I found it pretty dull and very predictable.



I shouldn’t have jinxed it.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 6, 2019)

The hysteria around the film is well clockwork

_A young man who was loudly cheering and applauding on-screen murders sent some people heading toward exits in a crowded theater in Manhattan's Times Square on Friday night. Other patrons yelled at the man, who spit on them as they left early, said Nathanael Hood, who was in the theater._

Man loudly cheering on-screen murders in 'Joker' NY screening sends many to exit


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## sunnysidedown (Oct 6, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> The hysteria around the film is well clockwork
> 
> _A young man who was loudly cheering and applauding on-screen murders sent some people heading toward exits in a crowded theater in Manhattan's Times Square on Friday night. Other patrons yelled at the man, who spit on them as they left early, said Nathanael Hood, who was in the theater._
> 
> Man loudly cheering on-screen murders in 'Joker' NY screening sends many to exit



I had to stifle a cheer during that scene when I saw this last night.

Cracking film. Could of done without the Gary glitter tune though.


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## bellaozzydog (Oct 6, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> I had to stifle a cheer during that scene when I saw this last night.
> 
> Cracking film. *Could of done without the Gary glitter tune though*.



I’m not super sensitive but that did jar me Slightly in an “Oh hello, what’s that about” manner. When everything in A film is there for a reason is it possible they missed the Gary Glitter connection....not sure they could do what did that reflect/mean/signal


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## weepiper (Oct 6, 2019)

Just seen it. I thought it was really excellent. It was refreshingly all about the acting and not about pointless crashing bashing CGI nonsense making up for the lack of plot.


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## CNT36 (Oct 6, 2019)

Poor Martha and her pearls. Never any luck.


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## emanymton (Oct 6, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I shouldn’t have jinxed it.


I mean it's not bad, and as everyone says the central performance is spot on. I just personally found it a bit dull and nothing in it was shocking or surprising.


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 7, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I mean it's not bad, and as everyone says the central performance is spot on. I just personally found it a bit dull and nothing in it was shocking or surprising.



In other words, ‘meh’ - the stock Urban response to any work of art receiving critical acclaim. Not saying you’re wrong btw, I reserve judgment until I’ve seen it!


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 7, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’m not super sensitive but that did jar me Slightly in an “Oh hello, what’s that about” manner. When everything in A film is there for a reason is it possible they missed the Gary Glitter connection....not sure they could do what did that reflect/mean/signal



That tune is massive in the states, played at lots of sporting events when teams come out, game is about to begin etc....

I think it was used in that sense, it marks the start of Jokers game, he's on the pitch, ready to play....

I doubt many Americans know much about Gary Glitter, Rock n Roll Pt 2 was his only hit there, his albums never charted there, and he only had one other single get into the top 40. I suspect they don't have much knowledge of his dirty deeds.


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## Bonfirelight (Oct 7, 2019)

I saw it yesterday. It was pretty good.


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## Yossarian (Oct 7, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’m not super sensitive but that did jar me Slightly in an “Oh hello, what’s that about” manner. When everything in A film is there for a reason is it possible they missed the Gary Glitter connection....not sure they could do what did that reflect/mean/signal



It took a while, but the song is fading away - the NFL banned it in 2006, and NHL teams have been dropping it after fan complaints. That New Yorker reviewer sees its use in 'Joker' as more evidence that the controversy is a marketing ploy.



> Do you believe that the decision to revive it, for “Joker,” is anything but a studied choice, nicely crafted to offend? Please.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 7, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> I had to stifle a cheer during that scene when I saw this last night.
> 
> Cracking film. Could of done without the Gary glitter tune though.



Me too.  I didn't because I figured the cop would haul me out (or put me on _a list_).


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 7, 2019)

Just saw it, absolutely brilliant. Very disturbing, in a good way. 

Joaquin is such an amazing actor.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 7, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I only said it isn't an action movie.
> 
> Never you mind.   Come back on Monday night...what are you doing here?  Fuck off.



That was, tbf, su-fucking-perb. She thoroughly enjoyed it, too. Totally refreshing take on the starting to get a bit stale comic book movie. 

It in no way panders to incels, but they'll still think it does.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 7, 2019)

One for the (comic) book wankers out there - how close is the movie to the Joker origins story part of The Killing Joke? Heard that it's pretty much considered canon in the batman comics, and has good pedigree with Alan Moore on writing duty. Wondering if it's one to pick up...


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 7, 2019)

Just this.


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 7, 2019)

Spoiler: Breakdown of Opening Scene by director


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 7, 2019)

Just got back from the cinema having watched this and I found it to be excellent if not disturbing.

The cinematography is fantastic adding to the films fascination.


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 7, 2019)

There's this too.



Spoiler: dancing


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 7, 2019)

Biggest october opening ever, 4th biggest R rated opening ever.

Nice.


----------



## Part 2 (Oct 8, 2019)

Just seen it. It's alright.

It borrows so much from Taxi Driver, King of Comedy and You Were Never Really Here that it's hard to judge it as a film on it's own. 

Joaquin Phoenix is brilliant but I'd say he was better in YWNRH and it's hard not to draw comparions between Joe and Joker. I did love the dancing scenes, especially the first one. No idea why there was a cockney midget to laugh at and one of the violent scenes added nothing to the story I thought.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Perhaps DeNiro wasn’t acting and was instructed to simply be himself?

I find the majority of new movies are disappointing to plain shit but Joker is one of the few films I’d actually go to see again at the cinema I thought it was so good.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Perhaps DeNiro wasn’t acting and was instructed to simply be himself?
> 
> I find the majority of new movies are disappointing to plain shit but Joker is one of the few films I’d actually go to see again at the cinema I thought it was so good.


Has he, or does he just think Trump's a cunt?


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 13, 2019)

.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Sweet FA said:


> Has he, or does he just think Trump's a cunt?



I personally don’t care what DeNiro’s opinion is on any subject matter, he a very good actor though.

Regarding DeNiro’s obsession of appearing in the media and first words of ‘fuck Trump’, he just comes across as a boorish oaf.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> he just comes across as a boorish oaf.


When?


----------



## RubyBlue (Oct 15, 2019)

Just watched it and thought it brilliant ~ Oscar worthy performance from Joaquin Phoenix ~ disturbing, dark and brilliant. As he came down the steps with the Gary Glitter music ~ twisted ~ he was twisted and the music now seems twisted ~ fantastic! And, contrary to recent reports GG gets no royalties.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 16, 2019)

Saw this on Monday and thought it was great. Some really terrible takes from woke liberals about the movie promoting 'white, male entitlement' and conservative hacks saying its a critique of 'antifa violence'.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 16, 2019)

I got interested in this film because some article said that the key to understanding it was Todd Phillips first film, the documentary about GG Allin "Hated", and that is one of my favourite ever videos... however the article went on to just say they were both shiite so I dunno. I still love "Hated", does that mean I will love this film?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 16, 2019)

ps I bet gary glitter is getting some money out of it one way or another.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

rutabowa said:


> ps I bet gary glitter is getting some money out of it one way or another.



Yeah, the royalties gnomes go where the PRS fears to tread.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 16, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'm not a fan of the Batman films really...but I think this could be brilliant.



Mayor Wayne and his son Bruce!
Good film, great performance 7/10.
It didn't go the way I was expecting it to go. Loved the clowns on the subway.
Was hit by hearing Jack Bruce towards the end.
Why the bloodied footsteps (we have a theory).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 16, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Saw this on Monday and thought it was great. Some really terrible takes from woke liberals about the movie promoting 'white, male entitlement' and conservative hacks saying its a critique of 'antifa violence'.



Indeed. The analysis of some liberals has been  embarrassingly wide of the mark. But these accounts are actually very instructive of their wider mindset, which can be summaries as a) defence of the current established order b) hysterical mischaracterise those opposed to it and c) paint everyone as wanting change as deranged.  

The joker furore really does reveal their unspoken concerns that the current system and their (admittedly declining) place in it as the narrating and administration class of it is collapsing.

The analysis that suggests it’s a commentary on Antifa is just pathetic and not worthy of comment


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 16, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Indeed. The analysis of some liberals has been  embarrassingly wide of the mark. But these accounts are actually very instructive of their wider mindset, which can be summaries as a) defence of the current established order b) hysterical mischaracterise those opposed to it and c) paint everyone as wanting change as deranged.
> 
> The joker furore really does reveal their unspoken concerns that the current system and their (admittedly declining) place in it as the narrating and administration class of it is collapsing.
> 
> The analysis that suggests it’s a commentary on Antifa is just pathetic and not worthy of comment



Reading the different takes on the movie by liberals and rightwing reactionaries has been telling in terms of how much better the right are at culture war politics, and why they’ll always win against the liberals on that terrain. They’re smart enough to realise that the movie has tapped into real anxieties people have about inequality, alienation and loneliness and rather than just pathologising they provide an interpretive framework for explaining it that suits their ideological agendas (e.g globalism, political correctness and so on). They can also point to the liberals jeering as further evidence that they are the one’s trying squash critiques of the status quo and the liberals give them an open goal by responding in the way you describe.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 16, 2019)

Maybe I shouldn't have watched the Grouch trailer _before_ seeing Joker.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 16, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Reading the different takes on the movie by liberals and rightwing reactionaries has been telling in terms of how much better the right are at culture war politics, and why they’ll always win against the liberals on that terrain. They’re smart enough to realise that the movie has tapped into real anxieties people have about inequality, alienation and loneliness and rather than just pathologising they provide an interpretive framework for explaining it that suits their ideological agendas (e.g globalism, political correctness and so on). They can also point to the liberals jeering as further evidence that they are the one’s trying squash critiques of the status quo and the liberals give them an open goal by responding in the way you describe.



Excellent points. It’s possible to construct a genuine left reading of the film as a dark portrayal of the fall out from deindustrialisation, late capitalism and the alienation of the soul of man. I actually started one a few page back but stopped when I realised how pretentious it read.

Both sides in the culture war overlook these fundamental points of course


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 16, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Reading the different takes on the movie by liberals and rightwing reactionaries has been telling in terms of how much better the right are at culture war politics, and why they’ll always win against the liberals on that terrain. They’re smart enough to realise that the movie has tapped into real anxieties people have about inequality, alienation and loneliness and rather than just pathologising they provide an interpretive framework for explaining it that suits their ideological agendas (e.g globalism, political correctness and so on). They can also point to the liberals jeering as further evidence that they are the one’s trying squash critiques of the status quo and the liberals give them an open goal by responding in the way you describe.



On the whole the right does a better job of creating a message and then speaking that message with one voice.  It may not be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but its "their truth."


----------



## Sue (Oct 16, 2019)

I thought Joaquim Phoenix was great (as ever) and liked the subversion of the goodie-baddie roles. But was a bit surprised at the knowing rip off (homage?) to The King of Comedy which is a much better film.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 17, 2019)

Watched this last night , and although I wasn't expecting to like it, I was completely engaged with it.
Joaquim Pheonix was outstanding and deserves an Oscar nomination at the the very least.

BUT I'm not really sure if he is the Joker as far as comics go. Heath Ledger still has the crown for me.


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Perhaps DeNiro wasn’t acting and was instructed to simply be himself?
> 
> I find the majority of new movies are disappointing to plain shit but Joker is one of the few films I’d actually go to see again at the cinema I thought it was so good.


That's fake though, account doesn't exist.  (not your fault it's a snip)


----------



## chilango (Oct 19, 2019)

Just seen it.

Thought it was excellent.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 19, 2019)

Saw it tonight, really tense, almost unbearable at times, great movie.


----------



## chilango (Oct 20, 2019)

Also...am I the only one to...



Spoiler



.		  see an awful lot of Robin Williams in Phoenix's joker?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> Also...am I the only one to...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yes, its his laugh.  

Robin Williams was in the casting mix for both the Joker and the Riddler in previous films, but the director in each case decided to go with Nicholson and Carrey instead.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Oct 21, 2019)

Just saw it and thought the cinematography was fantastic, the score was superb and the performance from Phoenix was excellent but I thought the pacing was a weird. It built it up really well but then it kinda jolted forward a bit too quickly. It's very Taxi Driver/King of Comedy esque which is fine in my book but I can certainly see why it's been rather polarising. I also felt like it was a lot longer than it actually was.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 23, 2019)

We’ve just got back from watching this. Joaquin Phoenix has to get an Oscar for this performance. He was outstanding. Great film but I’m not a massive fan of violence so I spent much of it cringing in my seat.


----------



## Virtual Blue (Oct 28, 2019)

slow burner movie that was reminiscent of 80's downtown US. 
enjoyed it but was expecting more of Killing Joke (one of my fav comic books of my childhood).


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 29, 2019)

I thought it was shallow and pretentious trash so am surprised by how much love there is for it


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 29, 2019)

Virtual Blue said:


> slow burner movie that was reminiscent of 80's downtown US.
> enjoyed it but was expecting more of Killing Joke (one of my fav comic books of my childhood).



I was in my late teens, I guess, when that comic came out. I found it quite disturbing, the violence visited upon Barbara Gordon was very graphic._ Joker_ is easy going, by comparison.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Also...am I the only one to...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought Iggy Pop should get some  acknowledgement.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 29, 2019)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought it was shallow and pretentious trash so am surprised by how much love there is for it



That makes it a perfect example of our time and culture.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 29, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> That makes it a perfect example of our time and culture.


Though not necessarily a good movie


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 29, 2019)

Orang Utan said:


> Though not necessarily a good movie



I can't say I'm entertained by the culture at the moment either.  The plot is all over the place and the actors are pretty full of themselves.


----------



## D'wards (Oct 29, 2019)

Just saw it, thought it was great. 

Only thing I didn't like 



Spoiler



The bit where Bruce's parents were killed. Massively shoehorned in. 
Why would they be going up the pictures right in the middle of a riot against them, let alone without bodyguards.


----------



## killer b (Oct 29, 2019)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought it was shallow and pretentious trash so am surprised by how much love there is for it


most people have pretty dreadful taste tbf


----------



## CNT36 (Oct 29, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Just saw it, thought it was great.
> 
> Only thing I didn't like
> 
> ...


Because it didn't happen.


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 29, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> Because it didn't happen.





Spoiler: imdb spoiler trivia



In Joker 2019, an unidentified man dressed in a Joker mask murders the Waynes during a riot, making it the second film to imply the Joker is linked to the Waynes' deaths,


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 29, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Spoiler: imdb spoiler trivia
> 
> 
> 
> In Joker 2019, an unidentified man dressed in a Joker mask murders the Waynes during a riot, making it the second film to imply the Joker is linked to the Waynes' deaths,


But more or less the whole theme of the film is that reality is in the eye of the beholder.  We don’t know if any of it happened.


----------



## D'wards (Oct 29, 2019)

On the Empire spoiler special they posited that this is not The Joker, just A Joker.

There's no way Phoenix would join the DCU and be in a regular mediocre batman superhero film.

Todd Phillips also said they both have no plans to do anything else with the character. It's not that kind of film. 

Wonder what Scorsese thinks of it. He was attached early on as a producer, but famously hates superhero films, alongside Francis Ford Copploa


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 29, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Wonder what Scorsese thinks of it. He was attached early on as a producer, but famously hates superhero films, alongside Francis Ford Copploa


I don't think it's about hating them, it's about objecting to the franchisation of movies.


----------



## ignatious (Oct 30, 2019)

The clear highlight for me was Phoenix as the Joker. He doesn’t quite have the charisma of Ledger or Nicholson but he was darker than both and, for this film, that worked well. 

I’m not sure it will age well though overall. As a metaphor for our times it didn’t really say anything about anything other than what an incoherent mess we are as a whole, and that is hardly a unique take on the human experience. Entertaining and engaging but ultimately unrewarding. It was a bit like watching a band with a great sound but no actual tunes. 

The female roles were a particular disappointment. Both his mother and the neighbour/love interest were reduced to feeble servitude and the misogyny that ran through the whole piece was epitomised by the old lady on the chat show who sat as if in comedic shock after being sexually assaulted in front of a live audience.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> But more or less the whole theme of the film is that reality is in the eye of the beholder.  We don’t know if any of it happened.



Iirc, that skewed take on reality is a staple of the Joker, remember Heath Ledger's various versions on how he got his "smile". Which one was real, if any etc...


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2019)

ignatious said:


> The clear highlight for me was Phoenix as the Joker. He doesn’t quite have the charisma of Ledger or Nicholson but he was darker than both and, for this film, that worked well.
> 
> I’m not sure it will age well though overall. As a metaphor for our times it didn’t really say anything about anything other than what an incoherent mess we are as a whole, and that is hardly a unique take on the human experience. Entertaining and engaging but ultimately unrewarding. It was a bit like watching a band with a great sound but no actual tunes.
> 
> The female roles were a particular disappointment. Both his mother and the neighbour/love interest were reduced to feeble servitude and the misogyny that ran through the whole piece was epitomised by the old lady on the chat show who sat as if in comedic shock after being sexually assaulted in front of a live audience.



That last scene is taken from _The Dark Knight Returns_ - where the Joker does the same to a Dr Ruth type character...



Spoiler: from the comic


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 30, 2019)

ignatious said:


> The clear highlight for me was Phoenix as the Joker. He doesn’t quite have the charisma of Ledger or Nicholson but he was darker than both and, for this film, that worked well.
> 
> I’m not sure it will age well though overall. As a metaphor for our times it didn’t really say anything about anything other than what an incoherent mess we are as a whole, and that is hardly a unique take on the human experience. Entertaining and engaging but ultimately unrewarding. It was a bit like watching a band with a great sound but no actual tunes.
> 
> The female roles were a particular disappointment. Both his mother and the neighbour/love interest were reduced to feeble servitude and the misogyny that ran through the whole piece was epitomised by the old lady on the chat show who sat as if in comedic shock after being sexually assaulted in front of a live audience.


Oh I don’t know.  I thought Frances Conroy brought real depth to her role, and when her “secret” is discovered, and then her real secret is discovered we see her character as much more than feeble.  

I count 3 important female characters.  (Mother, neighbour, social worker).  Plus other incidental ones.  It’s not fifty fifty and it doesn’t pass beschdel- but that doesn’t make it misogynist from where I sit.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 30, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Just saw it, thought it was great.
> 
> Only thing I didn't like
> 
> ...


TBH I thought the whole last 10-15 minutes could have been cut. Didn't add anything just end



Spoiler



where he shoots Murray Franklin


----------



## ignatious (Oct 30, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> I count 3 important female characters.  (Mother, neighbour, social worker).  Plus other incidental ones.  It’s not fifty fifty and it doesn’t pass beschdel- but that doesn’t make it misogynist from where I sit.


Oh there were definitely important female characters in the film, but I didn’t think they were ever developed beyond being props to Arthur; they created no force of their own on screen and came across as rather meek I thought. Many of the men he encountered, by contrast, were actively confrontational so their relative servitude was not required by the plot.



Spoiler



The neighbour was presented as almost childlike, and the social worker was a somewhat exasperated figure who made little attempt to bring anything of substance out of Arthur. She seemed bored. The mother clearly had a huge influence on Arthur but was so diminished by her condition that her influence had to be presented vicariously through Wayne, via letter or via documents he got from the Council. Ultimately she was uncovered as a sick, pathetic, dishonest child abuser. Even Norma Bates got her own voice!



Perhaps misogynist is too strong and in any case you are better placed than me to judge the tone from a female perspective, I just felt there was a slight undercurrent throughout. Perhaps all the incel chatter around the film has played a part in that though.


----------



## ignatious (Oct 30, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> TBH I thought the whole last 10-15 minutes could have been cut. Didn't add anything just end
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that would have made for a much better and more thought provoking film. The last few scenes were all about positioning the franchise.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 30, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> TBH I thought the whole last 10-15 minutes could have been cut. Didn't add anything just end
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the only bit that should've been cut is the 



Spoiler



pointless asylum scene at the end



The perfect endind would've been when 



Spoiler



he uses blood to make a triumphant Joker smile. This is the point where he became The Joker.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> I think the only bit that should've been cut is the
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can see merit in both endings. The first 



Spoiler



hints that much of this may be in Arthur's head, it's open to interpretation, of course


 whilst the latter is "the moment" 



Spoiler



birth of Gotham's clown prince and all the horror that will surely follow


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 30, 2019)

I agree generally that there were a few superfluous scenes towards the end.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 30, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> I think the only bit that should've been cut is the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The film ends the way it does because it’s not going framed to be part of the franchise or any of the rebooted universes.  If it ended as you suggest, it would absolutely allow the film to be read as the setup for a future batman incarnation.  But this film isn’t interested in that.


----------



## D'wards (Oct 30, 2019)

Two other bits I didnae like



Spoiler



His speech on the talk show - too on-the-nose. Reminded me of the similar speech in Natural Born Killers - show not tell innit.
And where you realise the relationship with Sophie was all in his head - was redundant showing you the scenes with them together then him alone in the same scene.
The audience largely aren't idiots, we know what it meant


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 2, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> It isn’t a rallying call to incels.  It might be a rallying call to the poor.



Looks like you’re right.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 2, 2019)

It's a shame we can't get a better rallying call to the poor than a movie that's making a bunch of rich guys a billion dollars richer.


----------



## belboid (Nov 2, 2019)

Finally saw it last night, much better than I'd feared, not quite as good as many claim. Tho I love Taxi Driver, King of Comedy & Network, so was always going to enjoy large parts of it, I suppose.

While  the fear that it might provide a hero for the Incel movement, that's clearly a nonsense and the movies politics are definitely on the right side.  There are some magnificent bits, Phoenix in general is brilliant, wipes out any memory of that awful Nicholson performance in the same role. And it, generally, includes enough key references from the comics without shoehorning them in.

But...lots of it just doesn't make any sense, unless it is (like the last scene it copies from Taxi Driver), all completely fictional bullshit in Arthur's head.



Spoiler: First bit that makes no sense



Whether or not Penny Fleck was abused by Wayne or someone else, there is no chance whatsoever she would have got Arthur back afterwards. They would never have seen each other again.





Spoiler: Main bit that makes no sense



Rather more centrally, the whole interaction with Rupert Pupkin would never have happened. Arthur would not have been filmed at that comedy club, the clip would not have been shown on the show, and he wouldn't be invited on afterwards.



Oh, and I'm not really sure what the point of Zadie Beetz was except to show that Arthur wasn't racist.

Still, even with those criticisms, it was a very entertaining couple of hours.  And the use of Rock n Roll _is _brilliant.


----------



## RubyToogood (Nov 2, 2019)

belboid said:


> Oh, and I'm not really sure what the point of Zadie Beetz was except to show that Arthur wasn't racist.


Perhaps they just thought she would be good in the part? I don't see why her blackness has to be saying anything in particular if that's what you mean. If you mean the character as a whole then I think you've drastically missed the point somewhere.

I enjoyed it.


----------



## cybershot (Nov 3, 2019)

Finally got round to seeing this last night. Great performance by Phoenix. Really enjoyed it.


----------



## belboid (Nov 3, 2019)

RubyToogood said:


> Perhaps they just thought she would be good in the part? I don't see why her blackness has to be saying anything in particular if that's what you mean. If you mean the character as a whole then I think you've drastically missed the point somewhere.
> 
> I enjoyed it.


Beetz performs perfectly well, but has almost nothing to do.  If she were completely cut it would make virtually no difference. Arthur's relationship with his mother provides his 'heart' and the rest is unreal, so what's her point?

Must admit, the more I think about the film, the less I think of it. Entertaining but shallow.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 3, 2019)

belboid said:


> Beetz performs perfectly well, but has almost nothing to do.  If she were completely cut it would make virtually no difference. Arthur's relationship with his mother provides his 'heart' and the rest is unreal, so what's her point?
> 
> Must admit, the more I think about the film, the less I think of it. Entertaining but shallow.





Spoiler



the reveal of him not going out with her shows him as an unreliable narrator, the depths of his insanity...and he probably killed her when he went into her flat, she wasn't seen again was she? (I was looking for her 2nd time I saw it)


----------



## belboid (Nov 3, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the reveal of him not going out with her shows him as an unreliable narrator, the depths of his insanity...and he probably killed her when he went into her flat, she wasn't seen again was she? (I was looking for her 2nd time I saw it)


We knew that anyway. It was pretty clearly laid out.  And that last bit is just a cheap bit of 'did he/didn't he?'


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 3, 2019)

WWJD?


----------



## T & P (Nov 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> Spoiler: First bit that makes no sense
> 
> 
> 
> Whether or not Penny Fleck was abused by Wayne or someone else, there is no chance whatsoever she would have got Arthur back afterwards. They would never have seen each other again.



I came here to ask the same question after watching it last night. In fact


Spoiler



I was actually left unsure if her mother had been involved or complicit in the abuse at all, or if she was simply a completely unconnected member of public who adopted Arthur after he'd been rescued by social services, and later on became mentally ill herself. As I understood it she was in care of Arthur while he was being abused, but surely he would have never been returned to her care afterwards, and even if he had been, who was looking after him for the period she spent in custody?



But overall, a very good film (not sure if 'film of the year' as some critics appear to be saying), but very good. And Phoenix is, of course, sublime.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 7, 2019)

He has three laughs, apparently.

His condition, when he's trying to fit in with others and when he finally becomes Joker.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 7, 2019)

Should get round to watching this


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2019)

Just seen it.  Kept laughing at bits that the rest of the audience didn’t seem to find funny.

Sure it’s fine.


----------



## D'wards (Nov 12, 2019)

Was anyone bothered by the use of Glitter?

I wasn't, and it's a great track and scene.

Was the director being provocative by putting it in, or is Glitter not a big star in America? So it may not have been big news (although I'm sure someone would have put Philips in the picture,  but it may not have been thought to ring any alarm bells with the American public)


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 12, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Was anyone bothered by the use of Glitter?
> 
> I wasn't, and it's a great track and scene.
> 
> Was the director being provocative by putting it in, or is Glitter not a big star in America?...


The director did the Hangover films, the Starsky and Hutch 'comedy' and Due Date.  He does not give a shit about glitter.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Was anyone bothered by the use of Glitter?
> 
> I wasn't, and it's a great track and scene.
> 
> Was the director being provocative by putting it in, or is Glitter not a big star in America? So it may not have been big news (although I'm sure someone would have put Philips in the picture,  but it may not have been thought to ring any alarm bells with the American public)


US audiences know it from sports, where it is played a ridiculous amount - or the bit used in the film is, anyway. It has dropped off recently, but only well after Glitter was jailed.  The director undoubtedly knew all about its wider connotations when he chose it and knew it would spark off a useful bit of controversy.

Was it bitterly cynical? yes.  Did it work in the film? also, yes, absolutely.


----------



## D'wards (Nov 12, 2019)

It is a brilliant scene.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2019)

Watch this on the weekend and like it

its not really comic book movie more an old school 70's   Martin Scorsese character study affair as a lot of critics said
tbf the violence with it has been over stated by the media ..

imo

Should grab some awards really at least for Phoenix
and the could end the dance to freedom by removing Gary's vocals from the footage


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> and the could end the dance to freedom by removing Gary's vocals from the footage


they have, I think.  We only hear the Glitter Band.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2019)

the hey is the only lyric of the songs first half methinks and that was glitter


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

it's part 2, which was the b-side and instrumental but for the 'hey'  I thought the band did that bit (tho Gary did it live), but could be talking out of my arse.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2019)

cannot say as my research was youtubing the song on the sound track


and skimming thru it before pondering about my recommend track listing for the car so

if you remember it on the radio i will concede..


----------



## D'wards (Nov 12, 2019)

Odd thing is, I think that Kanye West sampled it on his song Black Skinhead and you hear that all the time. In fact I think its Sky Sports theme tune


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## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2019)

think the black keys used a sample of it as well


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## Cid (Nov 14, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> the hey is the only lyric of the songs first half methinks and that was glitter






belboid said:


> it's part 2, which was the b-side and instrumental but for the 'hey'  I thought the band did that bit (tho Gary did it live), but could be talking out of my arse.



He is credited as a co-writer so would receive royalties under most contractual arrangements. He won’t, but - reading between the lines of stuff reported after release - this is purely because he sold the rights at some point. _When_ he sold them is less clear, hopefully in the mid 90s for a new car, but who knows really. With any luck he’ll have the good grace to snuff it in prison.


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## Jeff Robinson (Nov 14, 2019)

8ball said:


> Just seen it.  Kept laughing at bits that the rest of the audience didn’t seem to find funny.
> 
> Sure it’s fine.



If there's ever a film in which its appropriate to laugh inappropriately it's this one.


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## moody (Nov 15, 2019)

I'm off round a mates to have a go at this tonight, he says he has a decent copy.

I'll report back.

been a while since I've looked forward to watching something.


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## Saul Goodman (Nov 16, 2019)

Some decent acting.
Shite film.


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## snadge (Nov 17, 2019)

Watched this tonight, enjoyed it with an excellent performance by JP. As for the GG music, it was the instrumental from B side, it fit well even knowing it was published under GG's name.


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## Reno (Dec 18, 2019)

I found this beautifully made and incredibly dull. It’s a movie where you know from the beginning where it was going to go and then there are no more surprises along the way, it incessantly bangs away at one note. Joker tries hard to be a Scorsese movie when Scorsese was on top by bluntly blending Taxi Driver with King of Comedy. They even cast De Niro so we‘ll get it, but that alone doesn’t put it anywhere near in the same league. I think I hated this.


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## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2019)

lovely framing of the tale in the '80s i thought- when NY was the crime spattered Gotham of the film. Not sure about the batman link but hey ho. I was impressed with JP use of his body and movement. It way maybe a bit less than satisfying overall. Lots of nods in every direction to other stuff - scorsese, mean streets,taxi driver obvs, french connection, midnight cowboy even.

eta and bernard goetz


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## Sue (Dec 19, 2019)

Reno said:


> I found this beautifully made and incredibly dull. It’s a movie where you know from the beginning where it was going to go and then there are no more surprises along the way, it incessantly bangs away at one note. Joker tries hard to be a Scorsese movie when Scorsese was on top by bluntly blending Taxi Driver with King of Comedy. They even cast De Niro so we‘ll get it, but that alone doesn’t put it anywhere near in the same league. I think I hated this.


I didn’t hate it. I liked the subversion of the Wayne family good, the Joker bad narrative and crime being a lot to do with life being shit. And Phoenix is v good and it's very well shot.

But absolutely agree on the Scorsese thing. I found it really depressing that no one I work with (they were all raving about this) had seen or was interested in seeing The King of Comedy which is such a better and more interesting film and was very blatantly and very knowingly ripped off.


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## 8ball (Dec 19, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> If there's ever a film in which its appropriate to laugh inappropriately it's this one.



Yeah, even at the time I was overly conscious of it, but I tend to laugh at uncomfortable stuff.

I hear it’s not that uncommon.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 19, 2019)

Saw this last night. The last ten minutes were great but most of the rest of it fell flat. There seemed to be a large chunk of the plot missing, namely the bit which explains how and why a massive insurrection sprang up in response to the Joker's actions.


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## Reno (Dec 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Saw this last night. The last ten minutes were great but most of the rest of it fell flat. There seemed to be a large chunk of the plot missing, namely the bit which explains how and why a massive insurrection sprang up in response to the Joker's actions.


That was one thing I didn't have that much of a problem with. Sometimes it takes little for a protest movement to adopt a mask or a symbol, like the V for Vendetta inspired Guy Fawkes mask. After the Joker's initial act of violence which made the news, it developed independent from him. We are talking the early 80s deprivation of NYC/Gotham, which saw a lot of unrest.


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## mauvais (Dec 19, 2019)

I had no interest in this given all the incel/MRA hype around it, but I happened to watch it today and thought it was alright. I liked that you don't need to know or appreciate anything about Batman or comics; it stands up on its own, just about. I don't think there's much to take away from it politically; not sure if we're supposed to sympathise or empathise with him. Whatever, it's nicely shot and acted.


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## D'wards (Dec 20, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I had no interest in this given all the incel/MRA hype around it, but I happened to watch it today and thought it was alright. I liked that you don't need to know or appreciate anything about Batman or comics; it stands up on its own, just about. I don't think there's much to take away from it politically; not sure if we're supposed to sympathise or empathise with him. Whatever, it's nicely shot and acted.


Tbh I only saw fuss about it from the anti incel/mra types. But then I don't move in incel or MRA circles either cyberly or irl.

I'm starting to think incel maybe a 4chan creation to wind "libtards" up as they are often want to do.
Mind you, as I said, I've never come across one but haven't actively gone looking either


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## Reno (Dec 21, 2019)

I can see how this plays into incel fantasies and the movie sort of roots for the Joker here as it’s entirely from his POV. I wouldn’t want to see this with an audience who cheers the kills. In this Origin Story he’s delusional and full of self pity, a bad childhood got him where he is, which is utterly trite. He’s just another fuck up out for personal revenge. In The Dark Knight The Joker took the piss out of that sort of reductive cliche, by giving backstories like this only for it to turn out to be another "joke". Heath Ledgers Joker is political, with a philosophy and a plan, which is so much more interesting.


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## Helen Back (Jan 10, 2020)

Will some... Joker... ever put the KLF version of Rock 'n' Roll Part 2 over the steps dance scene, I wonder...? ("Dr.Whooo-oooh! Hey! Dr.Who!")


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## ruffneck23 (Jan 13, 2020)

11 Oscar nominations is pretty awesome


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## DexterTCN (Jan 15, 2020)

Murray's show font is from Batman: TAS

The end credits are from Citizen Kane.


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## Badgers (Jan 31, 2020)

Loving this. 

Brilliant filming, acting and suspense


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## Jeff Robinson (Feb 3, 2020)

Reno said:


> I can see how this plays into incel fantasies and the movie sort of roots for the Joker here as it’s entirely from his POV. I wouldn’t want to see this with an audience who cheers the kills. In this Origin Story he’s delusional and full of self pity, a bad childhood got him where he is, which is utterly trite. He’s just another fuck up out for personal revenge. In The Dark Knight The Joker took the piss out of that sort of reductive cliche, by giving backstories like this only for it to turn out to be another "joke". Heath Ledgers Joker is political, with a philosophy and a plan, which is so much more interesting.



I don’t see what’s wrong with the cheering. In movies people are generally happy when the bad guys get their just deserts and the Wall Street guys and Murray at least were scumbags who deserved what they got. 

The Dark Knight trilogy had far more regressive politics than Joker, bordering on fascistic at times. Crime is presented for the most part as pathological and lacking any social causes. Joker flipped this by showing how the same system that produced the opulence of the Waynes also created the criminality and social breakdown that Bruce would later fight against. Okay, it’s not exactly an original tale, but an important corrective nonetheless to the deeply reactionary worldview that has dominated the franchise.


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## Reno (Feb 3, 2020)

I can’t even argue against the film, I found it so predictable and tedious its almost entirely gone from my memory.


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## krtek a houby (Feb 3, 2020)

Reno said:


> I can’t even argue against the film, I found it so predictable and tedious its almost entirely gone from my memory.



Ok, it's a bit derivative but surely JP's performance stayed with you? Much more depth than HL's Joker (who I loved).


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## Reno (Feb 3, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Ok, it's a bit derivative but surely JP's performance stayed with you? Much more depth than HL's Joker (who I loved).


I didn't see depth, just revenge movie cliches. Joaquin Phoenix is always good, but this is a role which requires an outlandish one-note performance, which is something I’m not that impressed by. In the best actor race for awards, Antonio Banderas and Adam Driver got more complex roles and got to do far more nuanced work. However the panels always reward the most acting over the best acting so he’ll keep winning those awards.


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## Idris2002 (Feb 6, 2020)

Just seen it, after a mix up last year with some French lesbians.

I thought it was a) really good, excellent in fact, and b) I never want to see it again!


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