# NYC Pre- or Post-Giuliani



## phildwyer (Oct 5, 2005)

Having lived in NYC from 87 until 97, I saw the city both before and after the utter transformation visited upon it by Rudi Giuliani.  I've discussed this with many friends, and they all seem quite ambivalent about the changes he wrought.  So I thought I'd ask those of you who saw it in both conditions which you reckon is better.


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## zenie (Oct 5, 2005)

I have no comment on this as I've never been there but the statistics are pretty impressive.

Ed is in love with the place so I presume he'll be along shortly to give you an essay


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## editor (Oct 5, 2005)

Tricky one from my limited experience. In 1986 it was like a modern Brixton gone mad with muggings, shootings, rapes and dodgy goings on at every turn. But it was damn exciting.

Post-Giuliani it's cleaner, quieter and a great place for battle-weary Brixton residents like me to hang out without the hassle.

But it's certainly lost its edge, with locals complaining that places like the LE Side and the East Side are now bland, soulless shadows of their former selves.


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## phildwyer (Oct 5, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Tricky one from my limited experience. In 1986 it was like a modern Brixton gone mad with muggings, shootings, rapes and dodgy goings on at every turn. But it was damn exciting.
> 
> Post-Giuliani it's cleaner, quieter and a great place for battle-weary Brixton residents like me to hang out without the hassle.
> 
> But it's certainly lost its edge, with locals complaining that places like the LE Side and the East Side are now bland, soulless shadows of their former selves.




Yep.  When I first moved there you took your life in your hands if you wandered east of avenue A.  There were virtually no (legitimate) businesses on the LES, and Tompkins Square Park was a veritable zoo.  I confess I miss the junkies, hookers and loonies, but I was never one of them, so it was probably reprehensible and voyeuristic of me to be so fascinated by all the vice.  Then again, are those people really better off in jail, which is where they are now?  Certainly subcultures like the beats, punk and hip-hop couldn't have emerged from anywhere else.  NYC today is just one more big American city, its lost its uniqueness for sure.  But anyway, Philadelphia is the new New York: once you get outside Center City you're on your own....


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## Concrete Meadow (Oct 6, 2005)

If you enjoy shooting gritty black and white pictures with a Nikkomat, NYC before Rudi would be your kind of town.

Perusing my mother's notebooks [my parents are reporters and documentarists], it must have been a different world when Andy's Factory (41 Union Square West), the Cedar Tavern, the Electric Circus, Electric Ladyland, the Chelsea Hotel, Stonewall, Village Voice that came off the press every Tuesday afternoon, the SoHo News, Scribner's on Fifth Avenue, Chock Full O'Nuts, Woolworth's down the road from SVA, the Strand avant renovations, the Luna Lounge ... all happened. 

During Giuliani? After Giuliani? (Do you know that Rudi, like Bloomberg, was once a democrat?) There's no there there.


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## Andy the Don (Oct 6, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> But it's certainly lost its edge, with locals complaining that places like the LE Side and the East Side are now bland, soulless shadows of their former selves.



As has Times Square, its gone from "nice 'n' sleazy" to "happy smiley corporate shopping square.."


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## D (Oct 8, 2005)

Concrete Meadow said:
			
		

> If you enjoy shooting gritty black and white pictures with a Nikkomat, NYC before Rudi would be your kind of town.
> 
> Perusing my mother's notebooks [my parents are reporters and documentarists], it must have been a different world when Andy's Factory (41 Union Square West), the Cedar Tavern, the Electric Circus, Electric Ladyland, the Chelsea Hotel, Stonewall, Village Voice that came off the press every Tuesday afternoon, the SoHo News, Scribner's on Fifth Avenue, Chock Full O'Nuts, Woolworth's down the road from SVA, the Strand avant renovations, the Luna Lounge ... all happened.
> 
> During Giuliani? After Giuliani? (Do you know that Rudi, like Bloomberg, was once a democrat?) There's no there there.



I had a ridiculous fondness for the Chock Full O'Nuts thing in Times Square when I was a child.  Times Square is - for me - the site of the most radical changes of the city I grew up in.  It's not far from where my parents live(d) and when I was a kid it was still possible to see Broadway stars instead of just movie stars performing there.  I remember seeing the Bway revival of Anything Goes with Patti LuPone sometime in the mid-late 80s when the giant Camel billboard was still around too - the window of the theater (can't remember the name, I think it's attached to the Marriot) overlooked the billboard.  I remember seeing Cats at the Winter Garden over and over again.  I remember seeing A Chorus Line for my friend's 8th? 9th? birthday.   I remember when actors stood in theater lobbies and handed out red ribbons in exchange for donations to Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS.  Is the Cup O' Noodles thing in the same place as the old Chock Full O' Nuts thing was? I don't think it is...

My father had his wallet stolen in Times Square and I saw the pickpocket run down the street.  I still remember that he was wearing blue running shoes.  We went to the little police shack (which may have been a new addition to the Times Square landscape?) and they, of course, couldn't have cared less.

I remember when I wasn't allowed south of 14th St on my own and certainly not east of Ave A.

I remember the first time I went into the Stonewall Inn.  It must have been in the late 90s.  I thought, "I can only imagine...".

What a weird little burst of weird little nostalgia this thread has inspired.


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## phildwyer (Oct 9, 2005)

D said:
			
		

> I had a ridiculous fondness for the Chock Full O'Nuts thing in Times Square when I was a child.  Times Square is - for me - the site of the most radical changes of the city I grew up in.  It's not far from where my parents live(d) and when I was a kid it was still possible to see Broadway stars instead of just movie stars performing there.  I remember seeing the Bway revival of Anything Goes with Patti LuPone sometime in the mid-late 80s when the giant Camel billboard was still around too - the window of the theater (can't remember the name, I think it's attached to the Marriot) overlooked the billboard.  I remember seeing Cats at the Winter Garden over and over again.  I remember seeing A Chorus Line for my friend's 8th? 9th? birthday.   I remember when actors stood in theater lobbies and handed out red ribbons in exchange for donations to Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS.  Is the Cup O' Noodles thing in the same place as the old Chock Full O' Nuts thing was? I don't think it is...
> 
> My father had his wallet stolen in Times Square and I saw the pickpocket run down the street.  I still remember that he was wearing blue running shoes.  We went to the little police shack (which may have been a new addition to the Times Square landscape?) and they, of course, couldn't have cared less.
> 
> ...



Remember Sally's?  First time I went in there as a naive young hetero, I thought I was in totty heaven.  Took me about five minutes before I was heading for the door.  Remember the corner of 8th and 42nd at 3am?  They reckoned a million dollars changed hands on that corner every night.  Remember the cops telling the Jersey boys to 'get off the deuce' as they wandered out of Port Authority?  Remember the fake ID stores that were fronts for drugs dealers?  Remember the crack den in the corner of the subway stairwell?  All gone, gone with the wind...


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## Donna Ferentes (Oct 9, 2005)

I used to know a guy from New Jersey (white, Jewish) who said that personally, he thought Giuliani was great, but that nobody black or Hispanic of his acquaintance shared that opinion.


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