# "The Man Who Hated Britain": Mail goes for Millibands dad, Ralph, in a big way



## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

> The man who hated Britain: Red Ed's pledge to bring back socialism is a homage to his Marxist father. So what did Miliband Snr really believe in? The answer should disturb everyone who loves this country
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2435751/GEOFFREY-LEVY-SATURDAY-ESSAY-Red-Eds-pledge-bring-socialism-homage-Marxist-father.html#ixzz2gSmDeIgp


 
Mail goes for Millibands dad, Ralph, in a big way, and of course by association, Ed

I wonder what did Dacre do in the war?
Ralph was a naval intelligence officer...


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## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

they've used one line from a young Ralphs diary to hinge the smear on- have refused to back down when Ed made a rebuttal.


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## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> I wonder what did Dacre do in the war?
> Ralph was a naval intelligence officer...


 he was busy not being born yet.


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## Casually Red (Oct 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> he was busy not being born yet.



that old excuse


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## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

I've got no time for Milipede the younger but having your dad slagged off in a rag like the Mail must be fairly galling.

whats behind it all? is it cos he made noises about controls for energy prices? fucking hell, it'll be FULL COMMUNISM under Red Ed obviously


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

Of course, I was highlighting the fact that RM 'served his country', Dacre poisons it...

btw, why do you continually troll my threads?


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## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

Don't be pathetic.


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## Casually Red (Oct 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I've got no time for Milipede the younger but having your dad slagged off in a rag like the Mail must be fairly galling.
> 
> whats behind it all? is it cos he made noises about controls for energy prices? fucking hell, it'll be FULL COMMUNISM under Red Ed obviously



well thats what most of them have been saying pretty much . Along with raising the spectre of 1970s style power black outs .

Come to think of it the recent marketting of frighteningly over priced donkey jackets for the hipster set starts to make a bit more sense now .


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## RedDragon (Oct 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I've got no time for Milipede the younger but having your dad slagged off in a rag like the Mail must be fairly galling.


I'd be rather proud.


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## Sprocket. (Oct 1, 2013)

I am surprised it has taken the dolts at the mail to take this long to realise who Ed and Dave's dad was. 
''One of the most prominent Marxist thinkers of his generation''
I knew about Ralph, first from Haralambos and then through Hobsbawm, long before Ed came asking us to select him for Kev's old seat.
Fucking Tory rag clutching at straws and flinging mud.

I am sure many Mail readers wish Miliband senior had been captured by their heroes the Nazis.


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## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Of course, I was highlighting the fact that RM 'served his country, Dacre poisons it...
> 
> btw, why do you continually troll my threads?


actually, i've had enough of this shit. if you post nonsense, i'll point it out, as with anyone else. 
that isn't trolling you fucking prick. if you don't want me to pull you up on your hysterical bullshit, stop posting hysterical bullshit. you're an embarassment.


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## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

This article was from before last weekend. I would say that it has had precisely no impact whatsoever.


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...his-father-against-daily-mail-defining-moment

Anyway Ed has now took on the Mail, in a response piece he decries the 'gutter journalism'

Let battle commence


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> actually, i've had enough of this shit. if you post nonsense, i'll point it out, as with anyone else.
> that isn't trolling you fucking prick. if you don't want me to pull you up on your hysterical bullshit, stop posting hysterical bullshit. you're an embarassment.


 

It was a minor error, knowingly done, who is the hysterical one?


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 1, 2013)

Too many strong words, ffs. Treelover obviously using the same tactic as the Mail i.e. argumentum absurdium or whatever it's called, killer b taking it literally, it's not hysterical bullshit and it's not trolling.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 1, 2013)

Re: the OP, if ONLY Miliband was more like his dad. He's replied that his dad was a left-winger and he (Ed) has chosen another path. It's part of the ongoing campaign to label Miliband a socialist (he was referred to as such by Newsnight last night) cos it's a dirty word and to make sure people vote for one of the other neo-liberal centrist fuckfaces on offer.


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

> Britain has always benefitted from a free press. Those freedoms should be treasured. They are vital for our democracy. Journalists need to hold politicians like me to account - none of us should be given an easy ride - and I look forward to a robust 19 months between now and the General Election.
> But what appeared in the _Daily Mail_ on Saturday was of a different order all together. I know they say ‘you can’t libel the dead’ but you can smear them.
> Fierce debate about politics does not justify character assassination of my father, questioning the patriotism of a man who risked his life for our country in the Second World War, or publishing a picture of his gravestone with a tasteless pun about him being a ‘grave socialist’.


 
Robust response by Ed, Blair would never have done this...

btw, the Mail has unbelievably reprinted Sat's article and a long editorial, ffs..


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## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

S☼I said:


> Too many strong words, ffs. Treelover obviously using the same tactic as the Mail i.e. argumentum absurdium or whatever it's called, killer b taking it literally, it's not hysterical bullshit and it's not trolling.


nah, the whining fuck moans whenever i pick them up on anything. seems to think i seem them out for ridicule or something, rather than replying to their idiot posts when i find 'em, like with everyone else. had enough, frankly.


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## happie chappie (Oct 1, 2013)

I've just had a "full and frank" discussion with the Mail on this very subject*

Here's the phone number: 020 7938 6000

Ask for the Features Department in Editorial.

* When I say "discussion" it was more of a monologue which included the phrases "call yourself a journalist - you should be ashamed of yourself" and "you're a fucking disgrace."


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

Lest we forget, Ralph who spent three years in the RN or this?


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 1, 2013)

"Nobody hates this country as much as the Daily Mail" - someone on twitter, earlier.


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## dylanredefined (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Mail goes for Millibands dad, Ralph, in a big way, and of course by association, Ed
> 
> I wonder what did Dacre do in the war?
> Ralph was a naval intelligence officer...



  So he was a left winger who wanted to change Britain and disliked the establishment. Did he do anything illegal? Or actively work against the UK's interest? No. Wasn't even great fan of the USSR. So the slur seems to be he wasn't a tory and didn't love maggie (Which isn't a crime yet)


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## eatmorecheese (Oct 1, 2013)

Well Ed, this is what they do. Amusing, they did it to my old man in 1978. Some hatchet headline about his ineffectiveness as a consul in Mexico City. But at least my old man was alive. (Ended up telling a DM journalist to fuck off down the phone, curtailed his promotion prospects somewhat..)


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

Apparently Jeremy Hunt refuses to condemn the article on the grounds that "RM didn't support the free market"

scary stuff...


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This article was from before last weekend. I would say that it has had precisely no impact whatsoever.



BBC was running with it this am, including the decontextualised diary quote; it's not at all clear why. I don't think it will do Milliband  any harm; most people just won't care, and for those that do it will simply be used to support an already existing position (either for or against).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 1, 2013)

if i voted, the mail would have just secured my vote.  for milliband.


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## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> BBC was running with it this am, including the decontextualised diary quote; it's not at all clear why. I don't think it will do Milliband  any harm; most people just won't care, and for those that do it will simply be used to support an already existing position (either for or against).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


I can only think the BBC's angle is that they're reporting a row rather than the content of the article itself? Not having seen/heard their report i don't know. I think you're spot on in likely impact. I also think the Mail have misjudged this socialist stuff - going from the comments section on a number of these red scare stories anyway.


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## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

Dacre is a lovely fella as long as you're painting his house.


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## DRINK? (Oct 1, 2013)

If you have to post up articles from 1936 to back up your belief that the daily mail are cunts, you've probably not been paying attention


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## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> BBC was running with it this am, including the decontextualised diary quote; it's not at all clear why. I don't think it will do Milliband  any harm; most people just won't care, and for those that do it will simply be used to support an already existing position (either for or against).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice




Thats where the story came to my attention. Its not like ed hasn't spent some quality time union bashing over this last month or so- just goes to show that it really doesn't matter what he does the press are going to go with the whole Red Ed bullshit.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I can only think the BBC's angle is that they're reporting a row rather than the content of the article itself? Not having seen/heard their report i don't know. I think you're spot on in likely impact. I also think the Mail have misjudged this socialist stuff - going from the comments section on a number of these red scare stories anyway.


 
Someone on Radio 4 was saying it was significant because Ed Miliband had stood up to Dacre when Brown and Blair had folded when their families were attacked.

Which I'm not sure is true anyway (didn't Brown go mental about his kids being in the press?)

But yes, hard to see why it is that important. Twitter is full of liberal types going on about the hurrah for the blackshirts stuff and the photo of the DM owner with Hitler. But so what?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> But so what?


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## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

It's weird, i've seen three mail links posted on here today - the one this thread is about. the hurrah for the blackshirts one and one defending, or lauding violent attacks on fascists up to and including slashing with razors and maiming.


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## happie chappie (Oct 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> But yes, hard to see why it is that important. Twitter is full of liberal types going on about the hurrah for the blackshirts stuff and the photo of the DM owner with Hitler. But so what?


 
I think this might form the basis of the Mail's next editorial.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I can only think the BBC's angle is that they're reporting a row rather than the content of the article itself? Not having seen/heard their report i don't know. I think you're spot on in likely impact. I also think the Mail have misjudged this socialist stuff - going from the comments section on a number of these red scare stories anyway.



Yep the BBC stuff was focussed entirely on the row as politics, rather than the content of the article as substance. 

Given the lack of substance in the article, it would have been difficult for them to retain their neutrality if they had gone down that route (i.e. they would have had to point out it was at best poor journalism).

I don't think the BBC are looking for a fight with the Mail (one which would play into a Mail friendly Bolshevik Broadcasting Company narrative).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

DRINK? said:


> If you have to post up articles from 1936 to back up your belief that the daily mail are cunts, you've probably not been paying attention



I think the point was to compare Milliband senior's attitude towards fascism with that of the Mail as was, and to beg the question who really hated Britain?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I think the point was to compare Milliband senior's attitude towards fascism with that of the Mail as was, and to beg the question who really hated Britain?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



http://begthequestion.info/


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## agricola (Oct 1, 2013)

The original article does seem a bit odd; it almost makes one wonder if it was originally quite a bit more detailed (with regards to Ralph's teaching of Ed) and got cut down to its current size by the lawyers?


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

The Mail must be really desperate to try to paint Ed Milliband as a "Red". If only he were; in reality he is a feeble reformist. Of course apart from naming him "Red Ed" they have nothing to say and have to resort to suggesting his father, who was an intellectual socialist most people won't have heard of, was someone who hated Britain.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> http://begthequestion.info/



Collins and others suggest that your attempted pedantry is well past its sell by date. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

doesn't make you any less wrong.


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## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

This argument is symptomatic - Ed M's "One Nation Labour" is attempting to forge some kind of democratic national-popular progressive alliance around British identity and traditions (we pull together in a crisis, the Dunkirk spirit, we remade Britain in 45 etc.) which is partly self-conscious in appealing to the Popular Frontism of the CPGB.   So targetting his old man's "Britishness", aligning socialists with a lack of patriotism and appreciation of "our traditions" - strikes at the heart of that, and why Ed had to respond.

What Ralph M made of the arguments for such Popular Frontism is a different question altogether.  Anyone know if he wrote on this?   Had he developed a critique of the CP by that stage?


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Mail goes for Millibands dad, Ralph, in a big way, and of course by association, Ed
> 
> I wonder what did Dacre do in the war?



Dacre Senior very obviously caught a combination of syphilis and gonorrhea from a dockyard prostitute in the war.

Nothing else can explain the symptoms of congenital syphilis that Paul Dacre frequently displays.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> doesn't make you any less wrong.



Nice try but that is precisely what it does do; or perhaps you still use nice to mean foolish?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## ska invita (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The Mail must be really desperate to try to paint Ed Milliband as a "Red". If only he were; in reality he is a feeble reformist.


in only he were a feeble reformist


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> Ed M's "One Nation Labour" is attempting to forge some kind of democratic national-popular progressive alliance around British identity and traditions which is partly self-conscious in appealing to the Popular Frontism of the CPGB.


 
Would've loved to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

he's already stated he won't be reversing any of the cuts- thats why this Red Ed stuff is so feeble. He's just the same as the  other two


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

there's clearly a part of the right that thinks there's an audience for this - like Guido Fawkes continuously posting up Unite-Labour links stuff - but no-one outside their little bubble genuinely worries that the Labour Party is being controlled by marxists or the unions...


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## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> This argument is symptomatic - Ed M's "One Nation Labour" is attempting to forge some kind of democratic national-popular progressive alliance around British identity and traditions (we pull together in a crisis, the Dunkirk spirit, we remade Britain in 45 etc.) which is partly self-conscious in appealing to the Popular Frontism of the CPGB.   So targetting his old man's "Britishness", aligning socialists with a lack of patriotism and appreciation of "our traditions" - strikes at the heart of that, and why Ed had to respond.


But without any of the components of previous attempts at such approaches or without the context of popular political participation that allowed such approaches space to live. I think you've over thought this really.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Robust response by Ed, Blair would never have done this...



Blair *couldn't* have done it, because his ideology (whether you quantify it as his mythical "3rd way" or the more quotidian "what works") didn't allow for anything as overtly political as socialism.



> btw, the Mail has unbelievably reprinted Sat's article and a long editorial, ffs..



Hardly unbelievable.  They think they're swinging a decent punch, so they'll keep on using it as long as they can.  This isn't about them being right or accurate, this is about getting this particular bit of fiction into mainstream consciousness.


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Nice try but that is precisely what it does do; or perhaps you still use nice to mean foolish?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


why use a a phrase erroneously when a perfectly serviceable alternative is available... "makes me wonder" is nice.


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## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Would've loved to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting.


Cruddas is well aware of the parallels I'm sure - in a way the "New Times" proto-Blair project was about repeating this kind of broad cross-class alliance about a "new Britain" too.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> This argument is symptomatic - Ed M's "One Nation Labour" is attempting to forge some kind of democratic national-popular progressive alliance around British identity and traditions (we pull together in a crisis, the Dunkirk spirit, we remade Britain in 45 etc.) which is partly self-conscious in appealing to the Popular Frontism of the CPGB.   So targetting his old man's "Britishness", aligning socialists with a lack of patriotism and appreciation of "our traditions" - strikes at the heart of that, and why Ed had to respond.


Either that, or he's positioning the Labour Party at the same place as the old 'wet' tories, and has simply nicked their self-description.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Apparently Jeremy Hunt refuses to condemn the article on the grounds that "RM didn't support the free market"
> 
> scary stuff...



I wouldn't say it's "scary", but it *is* revealing of Hunt (and his _milieu's_) "politics" (if you can call them that).


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## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Either that, or he's positioning the Labour Party at the same place as the old 'wet' tories, and has simply nicked their self-description.


 there's an element of triangulation alright, but I think it's a mistake to see it as just that.  There is more to it...and the notion of a popular-democratic Britishness is core to it.


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## Sprocket. (Oct 1, 2013)

I think what really upset those in Maildom is the fact that Ralph changed his name from Adolph because of the moustachioed lunatic that the mail admire so.
NO not Chaplin!


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## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> there's an element of triangulation alright, but I think it's a mistake to see it as just that.  There is more to it...and the notion of a popular-democratic Britishness is core to it.


Every party uses this and has done since ww2. This really isn't Togliatti and the Salerno Turn - there is no multi-million member communist party, no clear class lines to be organised across. It really is just _look, we're for everyone. _Nothing else. You are giving these people too much credit.


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## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> But without any of the components of previous attempts at such approaches or without the context of popular political participation that allowed such approaches space to live. I think you've over thought this really.


 
There is a definite attempt to tap into something here though - the Danny Boyle olympic opening ceremony was lapped up by the leadership, and they want to tap into the same sense of pride in national values/traditions etc (as with Blue Labour).  Obviously how deeply this can resonate with people, what forces it could mobilise or draw together is something else altogether.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> why use a a phrase erroneously when a perfectly serviceable alternative is available... "makes me wonder" is nice.



'Makes me wonder' would be fine but 'begs the question' is not erroneous; also 'begs the question' is obviously serviceable, since its very widespread common useage has produced its accepted alternative meaning. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. you might want to correct your typo.


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## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> There is a definite attempt to tap into something here though - the Danny Boyle olympic opening ceremony was lapped up by the leadership, and they want to tap into the same sense of pride in national values/traditions etc (as with Blue Labour).  Obviously how deeply this can resonate with people, what forces it could mobilise or draw together is something else altogether.


I guess you're thinking of things like Labour's Next Majority and stuff like this sort of analysis? Is this really new though?


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> there's an element of triangulation alright, but I think it's a mistake to see it as just that.  There is more to it...and the notion of a popular-democratic Britishness is core to it.



I don't see any more to it at all. One-nation tories would say that 'the notion of a popular-democratic Britishness' was core to their beliefs too.

It positions Labour as 'nice tories', that's all.

ETA:

Actually, butchersapron is right, _right-wing _tories would make the same claim. It's what Thatcher said.


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## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Every party uses this and has done since ww2. This really isn't Togliatti and the Salerno Turn - there is no multi-million member communist party, no clear class lines to be organised across. It really is just _look, we're for everyone. _Nothing else. You are giving these people too much credit.


 
I think there is a bit of both in all honesty. I'm sure most Labour MPs have no awareness whatsoever of the political history of this stuff.  But Cruddas and his circle have more of a project than that.


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## youngian (Oct 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Twitter is full of liberal types going on about the hurrah for the blackshirts stuff and the photo of the DM owner with Hitler. But so what?



The whole attack hinges on a remark Ralph Miliband made when he was 17. Highlighting what politics the Mail was promoting and who Lord Rothermere was hanging around with in that period is a perfectly legitimate response. It is not irrelevant in the context of this vile attack on the Miliband family.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 1, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> there's clearly a part of the right that thinks there's an audience for this - like Guido Fawkes continuously posting up Unite-Labour links stuff - but no-one outside their little bubble genuinely worries that the Labour Party is being controlled by marxists or the unions...


Yeah I just can't see this attack doing Miliband any damage, surely anybody who is going to get remotely angry about a couple of lines that his dad wrote when 17 years old is never going to vote for Labour in a million years, hell most of them will probably consider the Tories too wet.


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

why tho? it's more recent meaning has become popular due to the general acceptance of its misuse and widespread ignorance of the phrases real meaning. no one wants that, surely?







/end


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 1, 2013)

youngian said:


> The whole attack hinges on a remark Ralph Miliband made when he was 17. Highlighting what politics the Mail was promoting and who Lord Rothermere was hanging around with in that period is a perfectly legitimate response. It is not irrelevant in the context of this vile attack on the Miliband family.


 
It is a relevant point in an argument which will be irrelevant to most of the electorate, is my point.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> There is a definite attempt to tap into something here though - the Danny Boyle olympic opening ceremony was lapped up by the leadership, and they want to tap into the same sense of pride in national values/traditions etc (as with Blue Labour).  Obviously how deeply this can resonate with people, what forces it could mobilise or draw together is something else altogether.



Without the big class narratives provided by for example, a mass communist party or a vigorous trade union movement, what do these national values and traditions amount to? At best they seem to be articulated around some pretty soft liberal notions of why can't we all just get along; while at worst they use some regressive notions of gender, race and ethnicity as organising principles. In the current climate there is no guarantee that the soft liberals will win out over the sexists and racists.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> why tho? it's more recent meaning has become popular due to the general acceptance of its misuse and widespread ignorance of the phrases real meaning. no one wants that, surely?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's nice using a dinosaur to prove your point about evolving language.

Cheers - Louis (channeling the 14th century) MacNeice


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Without the big class narratives provided by for example, a mass communist party or a vigorous trade union movement, what do these national values and traditions amount to? At best they seem to be articulated around some pretty soft liberal notions of why can't we all just get along; while at worst they use some regressive notions of gender, race and ethnicity as organising principles. In the current climate there is no guarantee that the soft liberals will win out over the sexists and racists.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


At worst, it is corporatist, denying the existence of horizontally aligned interests, and concentrating on the vertically aligned ones. That's what one-nation toryism was/is. Bosses and employees all on the same side.


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That's nice using a dinosaur to prove your point about evolving language.
> 
> Cheers - Louis (channeling the 14th century) MacNeice


sigh. just carry on then... You'd expect more from someone who names themselves after who you've named yourself after.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> sigh. just carry on then... You'd expect more from someone who names themselves after who you've named yourself after.



I think the Louis MacNeice would have been comfortable with incorrigibly plural meanings; for myself, I'm at home with the drunkeness of things being various. Perhaps you should try a bit less sighing and a bit more peeling and portioning?

Cheers - Louis Macneice


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## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Without the big class narratives provided by for example, a mass communist party or a vigorous trade union movement, what do these national values and traditions amount to? At best they seem to be articulated around some pretty soft liberal notions of why can't we all just get along; while at worst they use some regressive notions of gender, race and ethnicity as organising principles. In the current climate there is no guarantee that the soft liberals will win out over the sexists and racists.


I'm not suggesting this project is some kind of masterplan for electoral success - but the fact that even someone like Ken Loach is drawing on similar themes re the Spirit of 45 etc (with Jerusalem in the closing credits) shows that there is a sense in which this stuff is not just being dropped from the sky.

I mean, there would be scope within this frame for a fairly bold defence of "our" NHS, "our" welfare state - pulling together in a time of crisis, working collectively for the common good....


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> sigh. just carry on then... .


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> I'm not suggesting this project is some kind of masterplan for electoral success - but the fact that even someone like Ken Loach is drawing on similar themes re the Spirit of 45 etc (with Jerusalem in the closing credits) shows that there is a sense in which this stuff is not just being dropped from the sky.
> 
> I mean, there would be scope within this frame for a fairly bold defence of "our" NHS, "our" welfare state - pulling together in a time of crisis, working collectively for the common good....


given what's happened to the nhs don't you think the horse has well and truly bolted? don't you think you're being the tiniest bit disingenuous?


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> I'm not suggesting this project is some kind of masterplan for electoral success - but the fact that even someone like Ken Loach is drawing on similar themes re the Spirit of 45 etc (with Jerusalem in the closing credits) shows that there is a sense in which this stuff is not just being dropped from the sky.
> 
> I mean, there would be scope within this frame for a fairly bold defence of "our" NHS, "our" welfare state - pulling together in a time of crisis, working collectively for the common good....


They're not doing that, though, are they? They're still playing to the line that there is a huge deficit that needs paying down, that the financial crisis was caused by overspending government, which is wrong and depressing to hear from Labour. And means that a Labour govt would do much the same as a tory one.


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## J Ed (Oct 1, 2013)

The attacks are obviously massively hypocritical and nasty but I can't help but feel that both sides win here. The Mail get to do a bit of faux-red-baiting while Ed Miliband gets to appear to most people as a decent bloke sticking up for his dad no matter what and overly optimistic leftists will see in that defence his speaking out in favour of socialism and the ideas of his father, meanwhile he doesn't have to actually sacrifice any neoliberal politics.


----------



## youngian (Oct 1, 2013)

https://twitter.com/search?q=#mydadhatedbritain&src=hash


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Excellent, this is the mail editorial response to milibands right-to-reply - it's  even more loony than the original piece.



> In his tetchy and menacing response


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 1, 2013)

S☼I said:


> Re: the OP, if ONLY Miliband was more like his dad. He's replied that his dad was a left-winger and he (Ed) has chosen another path. It's part of the ongoing campaign to label Miliband a socialist (he was referred to as such by Newsnight last night) cos it's a dirty word and to make sure people vote for one of the other neo-liberal centrist fuckfaces on offer.


The Tories hate Miliband because he isn't _their_ neoliberal. EdM is about as Marxist as Roy Jenkins.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 1, 2013)

The Mail has painted itself into a corner. It can't escape its Nazi-supporting past no matter how hard it tries to paint Ed Miliband as a raving Marxist. Time's up for the Mail.


----------



## youngian (Oct 1, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The Tories hate Miliband because he isn't _their_ neoliberal.



You wonder how Blair would have responded-

"Why I hate my Commie Dad"
"Why I wish Lord Rothermere was my father"

Tony pours his heart out in Mail exclusive.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The Tories hate Miliband because he isn't _their_ neoliberal. EdM is about as Marxist as Roy Jenkins.


Red Ed.

Red Roy. 

Alliteration and rhymes don't lie.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Red Ed.
> 
> Wed Woy.
> 
> Alliteration and rhymes don't lie.



Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Red Ed.
> 
> Red Roy.
> 
> Alliteration and rhymes don't lie.


Proper headbanging Marxist, our Roy. I won't have a bad word said about him or our Shirl.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Wed woy


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Red Ed.
> 
> Red Roy.
> 
> Alliteration and rhymes don't lie.


----------



## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

On BBC Jeremy Vine is discussing "can you be patriotic and a socialist at the same time"!


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> why tho? it's more recent meaning has become popular due to the general acceptance of its misuse and widespread ignorance of the phrases real meaning. no one wants that, surely?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love the subtlety of using dinosaurs.

Edit: curses. Missed #68


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> On BBC Jeremy Vine is discussing "can you be patriotic and a socialist at the same time"!


Fuck me. So the Mail wins a bit at least.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> On BBC Jeremy Vine is discussing "can you be patriotic and a socialist at the same time"!



Did you see the interview with Ed and the Beeb? They asked him if, because he was criticising the Mail, whether he wanted to censor it as if he were the caricature they used to paint of Hugo Chavez.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They're not doing that, though, are they? They're still playing to the line that there is a huge deficit that needs paying down, that the financial crisis was caused by overspending government, which is wrong and depressing to hear from Labour. And means that a Labour govt would do much the same as a tory one.


 
Well there's a clear tension between what would be required to do that national-popular alliance thing at all convingly, and the room for manouevre they have within the co-ordinates of what Ed Balls thinks the markets will wear.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> On BBC Jeremy Vine is discussing "can you be patriotic and a socialist at the same time"!


 it's quite a good question IMO


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2013)

Great comment under the New Stateman's article, linked to on page 1 of this thread:

"The Mail is at least consistent, when they were supporting the Nazis in the 30's they didn't want Jews fleeing here,from persecution, either."


----------



## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ETA:
> Actually, butchersapron is right, _right-wing _tories would make the same claim. It's what Thatcher said.


 
To an extent, but the question is then how was she able to present herself as on the side of the little guy, standing up for our traditions and freedoms etc. - in a way which lots of working class people bought into.  If we cede this territory to the right, can we ever win a majority of the British people?  That's the question they asked themselves. 

And don't forget Thatcherism was itself a response to the earlier hegemony of the Collectivist/welfare-state/Keynesian capitalism, and the vision of national mission that it held out.


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

His dad was clearly a fucking shit socialist and Marxist if the only dirt they could dig up on him came from his teenage diaries, ffs.


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> On BBC Jeremy Vine is discussing "can you be patriotic and a socialist at the same time"!



Cool, and the obvious answer should be 'no', why anything else?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Wed woy



Excuse me; post 83 anybody? Whatever happened to proper acknowledgement; and that goes for the people who liked your post as well.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Excuse me; post 83 anybody? Whatever happened to proper acknowledgement; and that goes for the people who liked your post as well.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Twice. On one thread


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Excuse me; post 83 anybody? Whatever happened to proper acknowledgement; and that goes for the people who liked your post as well.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Swines all.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent, this is the mail editorial response to milibands right-to-reply - it's  even more loony than the original piece.


 


> 'at least Miliband wouldn’t join his fellow Marxist in refusing to condemn Stalinism’s mass murders or the brutal Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956'


 
What a hilarious way of saying 'Miliband condemned Stalinism’s mass murders and the brutal Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> To an extent, but the question is then how was she able to present herself as on the side of the little guy, standing up for our traditions and freedoms etc. - in a way which lots of working class people bought into.  If we cede this territory to the right, can we ever win a majority of the British people?  That's the question they asked themselves.
> 
> And don't forget Thatcherism was itself a response to the earlier hegemony of the Collectivist/welfare-state/Keynesian capitalism, and the vision of national mission that it held out.


What territory? It's all just fluff.

Isn't that precisely what is wrong: it's all about positioning yourself, nothing about what you think it is right to do.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> Cool, and the obvious answer should be 'no', why anything else?



It may be the obvious answer but should it be the only answer? What if patriotism is defined simply as a cultural attachment to the country of your birth or domicile? What is you define your country in terms of its working class history and practices? Is there never any space for a progressive patriotism?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## youngian (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> it's quite a good question IMO



It can be but probably not from the angle they're pursuing. I wonder if Vine has ever asked if you can be a neo-liberal supporter of international capital and a patriot?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

It's a meaningless question.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a meaningless question.


why?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> why?


Because the answer people give will depend on the meaning they attach to 'patriotic'.

Will we be having Unbritish Activities tribunals now, in which any attachment to socialist groups in the past leads to accusations of treachery? To even consider posing the question is totally absurd.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 1, 2013)

Bit rich for the mail to accuse him of 'hating Britain's institutions'.

Unlike the Mail, which always championed the NHS, Britain's railways (when they were Britain's railways), schools, the independance of the judiciary etc.


Does Miliband actually frighten them? Is that what this is about?


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It may be the obvious answer but should it be the only answer? What if patriotism is defined simply as a cultural attachment to the country of your birth or domicile? What is you define your country in terms of its working class history and practices? Is there never any space for a progressive patriotism?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



1. Yes, it should be the only answer. 2. Don't care / not interested. 3. Trouble with that is, you get all these cunts who skirt over the good stuff and claim that the British tradition is in labourite shit, the welfare state, etc. 3. No, of course not Billy Bragg.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> 1. Yes, it should be the only answer.


Only if you think 'patriotic' means 'I support the status quo and current power structure of this country'. I'm sure Milliband snr and many other people who fought in WW2 would reject that definition out of hand.


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Only if you think 'patriotic' means 'I support the status quo and current power structure of this country'. I'm sure Milliband snr and many other people who fought in WW2 would reject that definition out of hand.



Unless it's intransigent revolutionary defeatism I'm really not interested.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> 1. Yes, it should be the only answer. 2. Don't care / not interested. 3. Trouble with that is, you get all these cunts who skirt over the good stuff and claim that the British tradition is in labourite shit, the welfare state, etc. 3. No, of course not Billy Bragg.



Thanks for your considered replies especially the don't care/not interested one; I thought caring about and being interested in the culture of the society in which you live might be pretty fundamental to thinking about how to improve that society (e.g. recognising strengths to built upon and weaknesses to be overcome).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> Unless it's intransigent revolutionary defeatism I'm really not interested.



Sorry I didn't mean to disturb your sleep.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Only if you think 'patriotic' means 'I support the status quo and current power structure of this country'. I'm sure Milliband snr and many other people who fought in WW2 would reject that definition out of hand.



Seriously though, whether they disregarded that definition or not, I think the position they ultimately took was one in defence of the state and capital - objectively, proudly even. I don't see how the status quo can ever be challenged with patriotism, reformulated or not, by it's very nature it groups together people and things with opposing interests.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> Seriously though, whether they disregarded that definition or not, I think the position they ultimately took was one in defence of the state and capital - objectively, proudly even. I don't see how the status quo can ever be challenged with patriotism, reformulated or not, by it's very nature it groups together people and things with opposing interests.


But that's not how the question is framed. It's not 'can patriotism challenge the status quo' it is 'can you challenge the status quo and be patriotic at the same time'. It is questioning the patriotism of socialists - and that's a very specific thing to do, as it is an attempt to define patriotism as adherence to a particular economic system and set of social relations, capitalism.

So the answer to the question is 'yes, of course you can', but that depends on how you define 'patriotic'.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

This discussion of Ralph Miliband could be quite useful if it stirred up an interest in his ideas and writings. Well done the Mail.


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But that's not how the question is framed. It's not 'can patriotism challenge the status quo' it is 'can you challenge the status quo and be patriotic at the same time'. It is questioning the patriotism of socialists - and that's a very specific thing to do, as it is an attempt to define patriotism as adherence to a particular economic system and set of social relations, capitalism.
> 
> So the answer to the question is 'yes, of course you can', but that depends on how you define 'patriotic'.



I'm a bit contradictory though, because ultimately I'm not bothered by the fact that most people aren't communists and hold patriotic views. I don't think communists need to go about demystifying people from their patriotic slumber, for me that's neither here nor there - some of the most militant workers have been the most patriotic, and behaved in the most contradictory ways (voting for patrioric non-strike clauses then going on wildcats, for example).

I have less time for the sort of socialist intellectual who thinks we need to cook up a new form of patriotism to feed the masses. ultimately it needs to be destroyed, not reformulated.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 1, 2013)

So, the Daily Mail,  that vicious and repellent organiser of the most venal, greedy and backward  section of the UK's population has gone for Ed Miliband's deceased father.  Few here will be shocked.

But its worth imagining how it could be if Ed was a socialist.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 1, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Great comment under the New Stateman's article, linked to on page 1 of this thread:
> 
> "The Mail is at least consistent, when they were supporting the Nazis in the 30's they didn't want Jews fleeing here,from persecution, either."


 
The quisling pieces of shit at the Daily Zig Haile would have rather Ralph had been gassed to death by their heros in German National Socialist Workers Party than come over here and advocate his own firebrand Judeo-Bolshevik progaganda.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 1, 2013)

Youtube comment:



> dear Mr Millipeed, fuck you and fuck your dead jew cunt father. Marxist Jew cunts like you are destroying western society and genociding the white race through enforced mass immigration.
> British soldiers liberated Belson two weeks after Ann frank died, and all these repulsive Jews immediately came here and began to plot our own ethnic cleansing.
> your vile treachery will not go unnoticed twice


 
Definately a member of the Rothermere clan.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 1, 2013)

The jeremy vine show has pretty much been the daily mail set to middle of the road music for some time.  I actively try to avoid it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

What is the high price that Greenslade thinks Miliband (let's call him that rather then ed please) has paid for his right to reply. I can't seem to find it in this article.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> This discussion of Ralph Miliband could be quite useful if it stirred up an interest in his ideas and writings. Well done the Mail.


But it will not. Literally not a single human being will now go and read MIliband as result of this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

the high price is apparently the mail getting to repeat themselves with added editorial


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Jeff Robinson said:


> What a hilarious way of saying 'Miliband condemned Stalinism’s mass murders and the brutal Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956'


Interesting they didn't mention the '68 'invasion' of Czechoslovakia but only Hungary in '56. Almost like they wanted to cover up their support for the last real invasion of Czechoslovakia. The one that took place in 1938.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> the high price is apparently the mail getting to repeat themselves with added editorial


So no price at all.


----------



## white rabbit (Oct 1, 2013)

With the Cold War and general paranoia about Communism being over, does being labeled a red have the same bite it used to? Aside from the Daily Mail being in no position to cast stones about inherited affiliations, this sounds like toothless bluster. Miliband might even score a few points for having some theoretical heft to his background.


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> With the Cold War and general paranoia about Communism being over, does being labeled a red have the same bite it used to? Aside from the Daily Mail being in no position to cast stones about inherited affiliations, this sounds like toothless bluster. Miliband might even score a few points for having some theoretical heft to his background.



Well, presumably the sort of person who'd score someone points for "theoretical heft" wouldn't score those points so superficially?


----------



## white rabbit (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> Well, presumably the sort of person who'd score someone points for "theoretical heft" wouldn't score those points so superficially?


I was thinking of the comparison with Cameron, who is a conviction-free zone.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Interesting they didn't mention the '68 'invasion' of Czechoslovakia but only Hungary in '56. Almost like they wanted to cover up their support for the last real invasion of Czechoslovakia. The one that took place in 1938.


The last real invasion of Czechoslovakia was completed in 1948.


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> I was thinking of the comparison with Cameron, who is a conviction-free zone.



Except he's not, and Ed Miliband's father being some sort of Eurocommunist who once wrote something nasty about Britain doesn't mean Miliband is... conviction-full.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The last real invasion of Czechoslovakia was completed in 1948.


Can you invade your own country then?


----------



## white rabbit (Oct 1, 2013)

caleb said:


> Except he's not, and Ed Miliband's father being some sort of Eurocommunist who once wrote something nasty about Britain doesn't mean Miliband is... conviction-full.


I'm just saying that the association isn't necessarily a negative one. The DM clearly think this damages him. It could well be viewed favourably.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> I'm just saying that the association isn't necessarily a negative one. The DM clearly think this damages him. It could well be viewed favourably.


It won't be viewed favourably because anyone who would want it to be true knows that "Red Ed" isn't even slightly pink.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> http://begthequestion.info/



I don't think it's in any way an accident that the basic structure of a logical argument and the most common fallacies which undermine such arguments are things which are not taught in schools.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 1, 2013)

Is it just me, or does "The Man Who Hated Britain" sound like the title of a classic Ealing comedy?


----------



## JimW (Oct 1, 2013)

Had a scan of the BBC's online "package" (arf) about this and there was one fairly informative and even-handed article from Michael Crick (here) but of course that turned out to be from a few years back during the leadership contest.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2013)

> my dad farted to the tune of "keep the red flag flying here" all the way through Thatcher's funeral  #*mydadhatedbritain*


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> It won't be viewed favourably because anyone who would want it to be true knows that "Red Ed" isn't even slightly pink.



I doubt he'd even turn red if you riddled the cunt with bullets.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> It won't be viewed favourably because anyone who would want it to be true knows that "Red Ed" isn't even slightly pink.


I think that's a very simplistic way of thinking about people's political opinions. You don't have to want Ed M to be a marxist to be attracted to the idea that a politician has an unconventional political background that scares part of the establishment (I'm not saying he does, I'm just saying that's how this story could paint him). The idea that Obama wasn't just another same old Washington politician was evidently a massive mobiliser for him in 2008 - even though it wasn't true (same goes for Farage in a smaller way).


----------



## white rabbit (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> It won't be viewed favourably because anyone who would want it to be true knows that "Red Ed" isn't even slightly pink.


Im not sure. The Daily Mail have this idea that putting "red" before someone's name damages them. I'm not sure that's true any more. We've moved on from that era. It just isn't as scary as it once was. Whether it's taken seriously probably relies a lot on its pejorative force. I dare say it could place Miliband more to the left in people's minds, unconsciously or not. If that's socialism-lite it could be seen positively. I don't think most people examine the politics in depth. They go on a general impression.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

JimW said:


> Had a scan of the BBC's online "package" (arf) about this and there was one fairly informative and even-handed article from Michael Crick (here) but of course that turned out to be from a few years back during the leadership contest.


There is one terrifying fact about Ed Miliband revealed in that article. He could do the Rubik's Cube in one minute 20 seconds using only one hand! Should such a person be allowed a position of influence?


----------



## JimW (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> There is one terrifying fact about Ed Miliband revealed in that article. He could do the Rubik's Cube in one minute 20 seconds using only one hand! Should such a person be allowed a position of influence?


And what was he doing with the other hand? Filthy little bugger.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 1, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Is it just me, or does "The Man Who Hated Britain" sound like the title of a classic Ealing comedy?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> There is one terrifying fact about Ed Miliband revealed in that article. He could do the Rubik's Cube in one minute 20 seconds using only one hand! Should such a person be allowed a position of influence?


 
Would have been easy for him. All the sides would have been red in his household.


----------



## JimW (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._


I thought the same too - surely far too may people will have at least some older relative who was one of the filthy reds or fellow travellers back when there were your actual mass movements.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> There is one terrifying fact about Ed Miliband revealed in that article. He could do the Rubik's Cube in one minute 20 seconds using only one hand! Should such a person be allowed a position of influence?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 1, 2013)

eatmorecheese said:


> View attachment 41314



_I'll get you, Scargill._

Starring Sid James as Ralph Miliband - special guest appearance, Diana Dors as Margaret Thatcher.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._



In a few union disputes there was (especially London dockers, Dagenham, NUS strike 1966)

(Labour expelled a few fellow travellers under one of the Attlee governments too)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._



It doesn't work because Britain's communists work tirelessly to make themselves look as pitiful and irrelevant as humanly possible.

e2a: At least in recent years.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> In a few union disputes there was (especially London dockers, Dagenham, NUS strike 1966)
> 
> (Labour expelled a few fellow travellers under one of the Attlee governments too)


Internal nonsense rather than something the electorate bought into - exactly why these were isolated and not known about or made a part of public politics in elections.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._



I seem to remember there was a lot of red baiting during the Greenwich by-election in the 80s when Deirdre Wood was the Labour candidate. And, of course, there was the earlier  Bermondsey by-election with Tatchell. Maybe it was just a London/South-East thing.

eta: It was also the case that we were a Sun/Star household when I was growing up. So that might be why I remember the red-baiting as a kid.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Internal nonsense rather than something the electorate bought into - exactly why these were isolated and not known about or made a part of public politics in elections.


Yeah, you're right. In fact I'd say Trot witchhunts are probably the closest we've come to proper red-baiting.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._


There was mostly a history of reporting on strikes using a red smear I remember Red Robo being a hate figure. In politics it was Tony Benn who was the bête noire rouge of the media. Of course Michael Foot was also handed some nasty criticism long after he had become a conventional soft-left figure. You would have had to been a reader of the Express and Sun (and the Mirror when Labour was in power)  to have noticed it.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 1, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Is it just me, or does "The Man Who Hated Britain" sound like the title of a classic Ealing comedy?



More like the title of a Julian Symons novel.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> I seem to remember there was a lot of red baiting during the Greenwich by-election in the 80s when Deirdre Wood was the Labour candidate. And, of course, there was the earlier  Bermondsey by-election with Tatchell. Maybe it was just a London/South-East thing.


and there's this


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> I seem to remember there was a lot of red baiting during the Greenwich by-election in the 80s when Deirdre Wood was the Labour candidate. And, of course, there was the earlier  Bermondsey by-election with Tatchell. Maybe it was just a London/South-East thing.


Again, both internal things i think and driven by very local battles.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> There was mostly a history of reporting on strikes using a red smear I remember Red Robo being a hate figure. In politics it was Tony Benn who was the bête noire rouge of the media. Of course Michael Foot was also handed some nasty criticism long after he had become a conventional soft-left figure. You would have had to been a reader of the Express and Sun (and the Mirror when Labour was in power)  to have noticed it.


That's the point though - it was stuff in right wing papers. Not an issue for the voters across the board. At least not a large one. It may have loomed larger in activists minds than in reality.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._


 
The nearest you get is the far weaker "loony left" narrative in the eighties, I reckon. And "Unions holding us to ransom / Enemy Within".


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> There was mostly a history of reporting on strikes using a red smear I remember Red Robo being a hate figure. In politics it was Tony Benn who was the bête noire rouge of the media. Of course Michael Foot was also handed some nasty criticism long after he had become a conventional soft-left figure. You would have had to been a reader of the Express and Sun (and the Mirror when Labour was in power)  to have noticed it.


But Red Robbo is a really weird case - in that he was a pretty moderate trade unionist who happened to be a longstanding member of the CP - it was only after he was sacked for fuck all that the press went to town on him.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Again, both internal things i think and driven by very local battles.



Maybe in the case of Tatchell it was internal - a bit before my time - but I do remember the tabloid smear campaign against Wood. They absolutely slaughtered her in the press. 

eta: But as my Dad would insist on buying the Sun and Daily Star every day, of course that's the things you pick up on.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The nearest you get is the far weaker "loony left" narrative in the eighties, I reckon. And "Unions holding us to ransom / Enemy Within".


Yep, i think that would be it. There's the economic strand (red robbo etc who was actually the managements mate) and the political strand in local councils. Might be an article on this actually.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 1, 2013)

With this and Osborne's jibe about Marxism the other day, I wonder if there's a little jaunt down the EDL/UKIP flavour of route - denouncing anything from about Kenneth Clarke leftward as the red menace. 

I don't see what good it does to be honest. It looks unhinged.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 1, 2013)

happie chappie said:


> I've just had a "full and frank" discussion with the Mail on this very subject*
> 
> Here's the phone number: 020 7938 6000
> 
> ...



just rang them, got through saying I had a story they'd be interested in about support for far right groups. Not that department. He said "you're very clever aren't you...la la la la la"

I said it doesn't matter how clever  I am, he hung up in the end of course. They are filth. It clearly winds them up. I'd urge others to take the piss out of the Blackshirt menace.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 1, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> With this and Osborne's jibe about Marxism the other day, I wonder if there's a little jaunt down the EDL/UKIP flavour of route - denouncing anything from about Kenneth Clarke leftward as the red menace.
> 
> I don't see what good it does to be honest. It looks unhinged.



Possibly an attempt to copy the Yanks? Over there, you really can effectively smear someone by calling them pink, let alone red.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 1, 2013)

I see Paul Dacre's father didn't do military service. Just got himself a cushy job on Fleet Street during the war.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2013)

it seems to be a surprise to the Mail that a man who died in 94? was a marxist and had 2 sons who are politicans


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 1, 2013)

Just read this......



> In 1999, when the Mail's proprietor Viscount Rothermere also died, the prime minister read a lesson at the service of thanksgiving.



http://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/feb/22/dailymail.pressandpublishing


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Just read this......
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/feb/22/dailymail.pressandpublishing


Is tony balir bad then?


----------



## xenon (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was red ever a scare thing over here? Post-ww2 anyway. Zinoviev letter was supposed to have panicked some horses (not sure i agree) but there's not a great tradition of red-baiting in mainstream electoral politics in this country because_ it just doesn't work._



The rightwing press keep trying though. Red Ken OTOMH. Had more power pre 1989 as a slur I'd have thought.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

xenon said:


> The rightwing press keep trying though. Red Ken OTOMH. Had more power pre 1989 as a slur I'd have thought.


Repeatedly elected.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

xenon said:


> The rightwing press keep trying though. Red Ken OTOMH. Had more power pre 1989 as a slur I'd have thought.


He used it to his advantage, though, didn't he?


----------



## caleb (Oct 1, 2013)

Is it true Margaret Hodge used to be known as Margaret Hoxha? that's awesome.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2013)

I remember seeing Hamilton (Mrs) on some tv thing where she blurted out 'Buggers Broadcasting Communism' as an amusing acronym for the BBC and was rather taken aback that nobody else had heard it before. Certain right-wing types appear to associate only with each other and to have a somewhat twisted idea of what is and isn't a credible slur.


----------



## happie chappie (Oct 1, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> just rang them, got through saying I had a story they'd be interested in about support for far right groups. Not that department. He said "you're very clever aren't you...la la la la la"
> 
> I said it doesn't matter how clever  I am, he hung up in the end of course. They are filth. It clearly winds them up. I'd urge others to take the piss out of the Blackshirt menace.


 
I just abut managed to call them a bunch of fucking cowards before they put the phone down on me.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

didn't Livingstone get the Red Ken tag in r/w press


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> didn't Livingstone get the Red Ken tag in r/w press


he did, but again, Livingstone's connections were to Trots rather than the CP, and we'd already got to the 1980s by that point


----------



## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I remember seeing Hamilton (Mrs) on some tv thing where she blurted out 'Buggers Broadcasting Communism' as an amusing acronym for the BBC and was rather taken aback that nobody else had heard it before. Certain right-wing types appear to associate only with each other and to have a somewhat twisted idea of what is and isn't a credible slur.


 

you could easily say the same about the left as well, its micro-communities

btw, the story is leading every single news bulletin, wonder how it will play out?


----------



## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> didn't Livingstone get the Red Ken tag in r/w press



He played it up to it a bit to when it suited him. I remember a cheese advert in which he said he liked "a bit of RED Leicester".

Imagine the laughs.


edit - Here it is.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> you could easily say the same about the left as well, its micro-communities
> 
> btw, the story is leading every single news bulletin, wonder how it will play out?


Is it? It's not is it?


----------



## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

from Political Scrapbook


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2013)

Livingstone with a head of hair! oldschool


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## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is it? It's not is it?


i can only speak for radio 1, it was about halfway through. surprised it featured at all on r1, mind.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

Favelado said:


> He played it up to it a bit to when it suited him. I remember a cheese advert in which he said he liked "a bit of RED Leicester".
> 
> Imagine the laughs.
> 
> ...



what kind of filthy sellout pretends to like red leicester?


----------



## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> what kind of filthy sellout pretends to like red leicester?



It appears to have been an advert for British Cheese. Before Thatcher sold it off of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

Favelado said:


> He played it up to it a bit to when it suited him. I remember a cheese advert in which he said he liked "a bit of RED Leicester".
> 
> Imagine the laughs.
> 
> ...



i see he's got the lea and perrins on the table


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

Favelado said:


> It appears to have been an advert for British Cheese. Before Thatcher sold it off of course.


still, no one likes red leicester, do they? Not even Communists.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

Fuck off, red Leicester and pumpkin seeds bread, lovely, and it's good for toasties.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

fwiw, i think it's a wise move on miliband's part to go on the offensive on this. most people's sympathies will lie with him rather than the DM.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> still, no one likes red leicester, do they? Not even Communists.


a proper red leicester, as with almost any cheese, is a wonderful thing.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 1, 2013)

Think the Hate Mail has made a mistake on behalf of the Tories (clearly this is a Linton Crosby panic move after Labour blindsided them with an actual policy) and that Ed Miliband is going to tear them a new arsehole over it...


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck off, red Leicester and pumpkin seeds bread, lovely, and it's good for toasties.


this is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> still, no one likes red leicester, do they? Not even Communists.


I am a fan of Red Leicester


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2013)

lol that the Red Ed father story is making the headlines during the Tory Conference - Dacre has really fucked up


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 1, 2013)

Isn't Dacre meant to be on his way out before long? So sayeth Private Eye, at any rate


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

john prescott there on C4 news, calling dacre out on national television. i do like a bit of john prescott. he reminds me of my dad when he's pissed.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> john prescott there on C4 news, calling dacre out on national television. i do like a bit of john prescott. he reminds me of my dad when he's pissed.


Dacre doesn't do telly does he ?


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

it's making me think of andrew sachs for some reason. probably just wishful thinking mind...


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Dacre doesn't do telly does he ?



conveniently enough for him...


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 1, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Dacre doesn't do telly does he ?


​


Would'nt want to see this on your telly would you ?


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 1, 2013)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> Well there's a clear tension between what would be required to do that national-popular alliance thing at all convingly, and the room for manouevre they have within the co-ordinates of what Ed Balls thinks the markets will wear.



And there we have it - the reason why anything Labour come out with is likely to fail/won't go anywhere near far enough to make a difference/empty rhetoric - it's all about "what the markets will wear".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

articul8 said:


> it's quite a good question IMO



It;'s a crap question - it presupposes that patriotism (love of country) and socialism are mutually exclusive.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> john prescott there on C4 news, calling dacre out on national television. i do like a bit of john prescott. he reminds me of my dad when he's pissed.


Who was that dreadful person from the Financial Times.
What a waste of brain cells - almost LBC level moronic "right-wing is common sense" crap.


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

it was the red headed uptight one from sexy in the city, according to mrs pf.

i tend to switch off when people use the word 'socialist' as a pejorative.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2013)

http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-miliband-daily-mail-father-ralph-labour-leader


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i see he's got the lea and perrins on the table



Leicester cheese, worcestershire sauce, that Livingstone is all over the place!


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2013)

*Anne McElvoy* - did post-graduate stuff in East Germany - maybe she inherited some of their paranoia.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2013)

Judging by my facebook this has put more people on Miliband's side than I've ever seen - the Mail could get him elected at this rate!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> Isn't Dacre meant to be on his way out before long? So sayeth Private Eye, at any rate



According to the _Eye_, *Lady* Rothermere is agitating for Dacunt to be put out to pasture, and for her favourite (the current editor of _The Mail On Sunday_) to replace Dacunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Dacre doesn't do telly does he ?



He has a face made for radio.


----------



## SikhWarrioR (Oct 1, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> Would'nt want to see this on your telly would you ?




On the other hand it would look good through the sights of a sniper rifle or a 88KwK36


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> According to the _Eye_, *Lady* Rothermere is agitating for Dacunt to be put out to pasture, and for her favourite (the current editor of _The Mail On Sunday_) to replace Dacunt.


can't see it happening tbh.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> According to the _Eye_, *Lady* Rothermere is agitating for Dacunt to be put out to pasture, and for her favourite (the current editor of _The Mail On Sunday_) to replace Dacunt.


 Rumour has it that Dacunt hates MoS editor Geordie Greig and the feeling's mutual....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> can't see it happening tbh.



Depends whether Johnny Rothermere wants a life of connubial bliss or not, doesn't it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> Rumour has it that Dacunt hates MoS editor Geordie Greig and the feeling's mutual....



Dacunt doesn't like that Greig won't toe the line, and doesn't subscribe to the Paul Dacunt School of Personnel Management. Greig doesn't like bullies, or being bullied.

A match made in Heaven!


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Depends whether Johnny Rothermere wants a life of connubial bliss or not, doesn't it?


the rothermeres strike me as a family who know what side their bread is buttered tbh. dacre has presided over their newspaper becoming incredibly successful, at a time when every other paper has tanked - they aren't going to risk someone new atm.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 1, 2013)

Wonder will Dacunt slag Liz the 2nd off seen as her uncle was quite pally with the Nazis back in the '30s


----------



## teqniq (Oct 1, 2013)




----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 1, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> still, no one likes red leicester, do they? Not even Communists.


Brilliant cheese for cooking.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 1, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Brilliant cheese for cooking.


It's a bit strong for cooking?. Great in a sandwich though.

The Daily Mail deputy editor is debating this with Alastair Campbell on Newsnight tonight, I guess the DM readership wouldn't watch Newsnight anyway so this won't make much difference to them.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

Just caught this on the radio and now Newsnight.  There's basically nothing the Mail won't stoop to.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

But who cares? It strikes me as an attempt to imitate the personal attacks on Obama in the US, attacking the figurehead of the opposing party, only Ed Milliband is just not in that figurehead position at all, and never will be.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> But who cares? It strikes me as an attempt to imitate the personal attacks on Obama in the US, attacking the figurehead of the opposing party, only Ed Milliband is just not in that figurehead position at all, and never will be.


I care because I think it's a really low blow, it's not even a personal attack on someone, it's a personal attack on a dead person to discredit their son and also a highly propogandist attack on socialism.  I think we deserve better in political media, even from the Daily Mail.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

steafal is struggling. what an arse.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

8115 said:


> I care because I think it's a really low blow, it's not even a personal attack on someone, it's a personal attack on a dead person to discredit their son and also a highly propogandist attack on socialism.  I think we deserve better in political media, even from the Daily Mail.


What effect is it going to have?


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

Ralph Milliband was a marxist, Marxism was responsible for millions and millions of deaths.

Also, "immigrant parents".

We should be playing bingo.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> But who cares? It strikes me as an attempt to imitate the personal attacks on Obama in the US, attacking the figurehead of the opposing party, only Ed Milliband is just not in that figurehead position at all, and never will be.



I care because anything we can do damage the Daily Mail must be taken advantage of. The News of The World is (more or less) gone. The Mail could pick the wrong fight and get destroyed one day. Or even if it can't we'll give it a go.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 1, 2013)

Campbell getting stuck in.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 1, 2013)

Campbell has given him a proper kicking


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What effect is it going to have?


Well, loads of free publicity for the Daily Mail, for a start.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Campbell has given him a proper kicking


Whoever wins, we lose.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 1, 2013)

8115 said:


> Ralph Milliband was a marxist, Marxism was responsible for millions and millions of deaths.
> 
> Also, "immigrant parents".
> 
> We should be playing bingo.



reminds me of dual loyalties shit. a pretty scummy attack by the mail. 

it doesn't mean that ed isn't a cunt tho


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> reminds me of dual loyalties shit. a pretty scummy attack by the mail.
> 
> it doesn't mean that ed isn't a cunt tho


I'm getting quite fond of him.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 1, 2013)

What utter vermin they are at the Mail. They should be eviscerated in front of cheering crowds.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

8115 said:


> Well, loads of free publicity for the Daily Mail, for a start.


They already have a lot of publicity - I was thinking more of dumb sympathy for Ed Milliband, and increasing US-style polarisation, which I think may be something they're aiming at (christ knows why given how badly it's worked for the Republicans but even so).


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They already have a lot of publicity - I was thinking more of dumb sympathy for Ed Milliband, and increasing US-style polarisation, which I think may be something they're aiming at (christ knows why given how badly it's worked for the Republicans but even so).


The polarisation is something that worries me.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

8115 said:


> The polarisation is something that worries me.


It's necessary if you want to maintain the idea that there's any significant difference between the two parties.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Whoever wins, we lose.



In a way that's true because instead of talking about policies that scare the shit out of the Tories Ed Miliband and Labour now have to deal with this shit...


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 1, 2013)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Youtube comment:
> 
> 
> 
> Definately a member of the Rothermere clan.





this is exactly what i thought, when i saw the line of attack the mail was pursuing, its nasty, and implying that he isn't "really" british/shouldn't really be in the country and his dad is "ungrateful" and "hates britain"

get him on his political ideas ffs, not some dodgy "ohh shouldnt really be in the country" bollocks


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> In a way that's true because instead of talking about policies that scare the shit out of the Tories Ed Miliband and Labour now have to deal with this shit...


you're kidding? this is a fucking gift to labour. a day of the tory conference effectively wiped out, two if it carries on tomorrow. they can't believe their luck.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> In a way that's true because instead of talking about policies that scare the shit out of the Tories Ed Miliband and Labour now have to deal with this shit...


I meant in that Alastair Campbell is a horrible shit with indefensible politics who is attacking a horrible shit with indefensible politics.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I meant in that Alastair Campbell is a horrible shit with indefensible politics who is attacking a horrible shit with indefensible politics.


while this is true, it was still fun to watch.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> In a way that's true because instead of talking about policies that scare the shit out of the Tories Ed Miliband and Labour now have to deal with this shit...


What are these Labour policies that scare the shit out of the Tories, because they seem to have been keeping them well under wraps recently


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> reminds me of dual loyalties shit. a pretty scummy attack by the mail.
> 
> it doesn't mean that ed isn't a cunt tho



Yep, you can't help but wonder just how disappointed the old Marxist would have been by his sons' politics.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> while this is true, it was still fun to watch.


If only when they fought, it was "two horrible shits enter, one horrible shit leaves".


----------



## teqniq (Oct 1, 2013)

8115 said:


> What are these Labour policies that scare the shit out of the Tories, because they seem to have been keeping them well under wraps recently


They want proper neoliberal none of this adulterated neoliberal lite.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> steafal is struggling. what an arse.


 No doubt he'll be in for an infamous Dacunt foul mouthed bollocking in the morning


----------



## peterkro (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I meant in that Alastair Campbell is a horrible shit with indefensible politics who is attacking a horrible shit with indefensible politics.


It's a big sign as to how politics goes that Campbell ripped the shit out of Dacres spokesperson,it's not a sign of British Socialism but it is a sign of how dead the Conservative party is.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

peterkro said:


> It's a big sign as to how politics goes that Campbell ripped the shit out of Dacres spokesperson,it's not a sign of British Socialism but it is a sign of how dead the Conservative party is.


He's a pro and very good at that sort of thing, and this is an absurdly easy target. Doesn't mean anything really.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

no, it's just theatre. campbell will rip a hole in whoever he's told to, and do a job of it. reckon he was enjoying this one though.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

I didn't think he was that great.  I was talking on the phone at the time though.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

Alistair Campbell just tore the Mail a new bottom on Newsnight.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

killer b said:


> no, it's just theatre. campbell will rip a hole in whoever he's told to, and do a job of it. reckon he was enjoying this one though.



Campbell genuinely hates the Daily Mail. I was working at a London office a couple of years ago and Campbell turned up on a fundraising mission for a cancer charity. During a Q+A he started ranting about the Mail there even though he was asked about the bugging scandal and not Associated Newspapers in particular. His hatred of Dacre and the Mail's "values" is very genuine it would seem.

When I asked him a question and told him that I hated the Mail too, he told me that "if you ever have any problems, come and see me".

I haven't yet.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

He may well hate the Mail. Lots of people do, it's a hateful publication. Him attacking the Mail does nobody any good because he represents a political position just as bad as theirs.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2013)

is it entertaining enough to be worth watching on iplayer? was there someone from the mail squirming on the sofa?


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

tbh i only follow mainstream politics for the fights. i don't really care who's winning, as long as someone gets some good punches in.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> is it entertaining enough to be worth watching on iplayer? was there someone from the mail squirming on the sofa?


yeah, reckon it's worth a few minutes of your time.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> is it entertaining enough to be worth watching on iplayer? was there someone from the mail squirming on the sofa?



The Mail's lackie gets a punch in at the bell but the judges have already declared the result long before then. Campbell delivers an absolute pummeling. I'd watch it.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> is it entertaining enough to be worth watching on iplayer? was there someone from the mail squirming on the sofa?


Yeah it's quite good.  Just make sure you turn it off before Grant Shapps and an audience of conservative voters, it was so bad I got stuck watching it like a rabbit in the headlights.


----------



## pesh (Oct 1, 2013)

i just had to go through an adult content filter to get to it on iplayer. what on earth did they get up to?


----------



## Humberto (Oct 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> this is exactly what i thought, when i saw the line of attack the mail was pursuing, its nasty, and implying that he isn't "really" british/shouldn't really be in the country and his dad is "ungrateful" and "hates britain"
> 
> get him on his political ideas ffs, not some dodgy "ohh shouldnt really be in the country" bollocks



Its very dodgy given the 'Hurrah for the Blackshirts', and 'keep the Jews out' stuff. Those articles at the time are worse than for instance deciding to run a 'Hooray for the Ku Klux Klan' article given what the NAZIs went on to do and what actually happened to those Jews the Daily Mail didn't want in Britain.

Feel a bit sorry for Ed Milliband. Maybe he is clever enough to throw it back in their faces. They haven't really changed and it would be the same today. They represent the same force. Ed Milliband should stick up for his dad if he has any guts and human feeling. Wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't but thats up to him. It really is pathetic and gutter level stuff. The Mail has gone down in my estimation and I hope everyone elses. Just to be clear I didn't exactly love them before but this is downright offensive as as well bullying behaviour in every sense. The media are often just a pack of attack dogs though so its no real surprise.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He may well hate the Mail. Lots of people do, it's a hateful publication. Him attacking the Mail does nobody any good because he represents a political position just as bad as theirs.


This is the trouble. I will always associate Alistair Campbell With Bliar. Much as he may be engaging and all the rest I am always worried he is going to try and sell me some complete bollox that no-one in their right mind would contemplate.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2013)

Some interesting comment from sections of the Jewish press suggesting that attributing the article to Levy was a concious attempt by the Mail to ward off accusations of anti-semitism. Levy doesn't really have much of a record of writing 'political' pieces for the rag, but he did pen a hatchet-job of Hobsbawm in 2009. Hmmmm....


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2013)

the old "Some of my best friend journalists are jewish"


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2013)

pesh said:


> i just had to go through an adult content filter to get to it on iplayer. what on earth did they get up to?


i think you have yesterdays show, todays one isnt up on iplayer yet from what i can see
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c4hgr


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> the old "Some of my best friend journalists are jewish"



how would they have attributed it to him if he didn't write it? surely you could sue somebody for something that's under your name without your permission and not written by you? 

or am i just being naive?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i just being naive?



What? The mail lie like that.....


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 1, 2013)

Campbell vs Dacre's stooge was great telly I thought. Campbell may be a cunt, but his evisceration of Dacre and his vile rag was a joy to behold. 
I think Dacres has indeed lost the plot. 'Hategate' has wiped the tory conference from the news, replacing it with oodles of coverage of Ed M defending his dear departed dad. The Daily Mail's nazi supporting past has been given massive publicity. Its exposed the paper as nasty, obsessive and out of touch to all but rabid rightwingers - and this comes only days after they were laying into miliband on behalf of the hated energy companies. 

What's not to like?


----------



## pesh (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i think you have yesterdays show, todays one isnt up on iplayer yet from what i can see
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c4hgr


yeah, i just realised that... i hoping tonights one has a warning too. is newsnight always this rude?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> the old "Some of my best friend journalists are jewish"



Yeah - there is def a whiff of 'his dad was foreign y'know. Jewish.' about the mail's story.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2013)

pesh said:


> no, i just realised that... i hoping tonights one has a warning too. is newsnight always this rude?


there are a lot of cocks and cunts on it


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2013)

has anyone mentioned that Miliband has a jewish background? (he has)


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 1, 2013)

brogdale said:


> What? The mail lie like that.....



but couldn't he sue them if they wrote something under his name that he didn't agree to?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2013)

marty21 said:


> has anyone mentioned that Miliband has a jewish background? (he has)



tbf (?) if he hadn't been up-front about this perhaps certain 'news'papers might have accused him of attempting to cover-up his background?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> but couldn't he sue them if they wrote something under his name that he didn't agree to?



Don't you think that his remuneration might be dependent upon his agreement?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 1, 2013)

I am glad to see The. Mail getting attacked over their bit of gutter journalism but not pleased to see Campbell crawling snakelike back into the political scene. He is no better than Dacre himself. All we now need is Mandelson to make up the full set of Blair style spinners driving policy under the guise of "presentation".


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2013)

marty21 said:


> has anyone mentioned that Miliband has a jewish background? (he has)


I didn't know he was Jewish, I thought he was just a 'metropolitan elite'.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 1, 2013)

Santino said:


> I didn't know he was Jewish, I thought he was just a 'metropolitan elite'.



rootless cosmopolitans


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

A disgusting obnoxious slimey cunt....and Alister Campbell


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 2, 2013)

Cant wait for for tomorrow edition where they provide some background to Stalins Russia apparently


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

Blair must be in despair, alright Labour haven't really abandoned his policies but the carefully honed and triangulated image of NL he created and cultivated has well and truly gone down the pan.


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:


> Cant wait for for tomorrow edition where they provide some background to Stalins Russia apparently


 

4 pages, Dacre goes to war, but increasingly he just looks bonkers..


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> A disgusting obnoxious slimey cunt....and Alister Campbell




Campbell's (justifiable) claims of Dacre's cowardice might have carried more weight if they'd come from an actual Labour politician. Where were they?


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

killer b said:


> the rothermeres strike me as a family who know what side their bread is buttered tbh. dacre has presided over their newspaper becoming incredibly successful, at a time when every other paper has tanked - they aren't going to risk someone new atm.


Who knows, Rothermere notoriously likes to keep out of the public eye (unsurprisingly) and his tax affairs have already invited comment,needs all this publicity like a hole in the head esp the Blackshirt stuff,Dacunt is nearing retirement age,a good way to get rid of.....


----------



## Humberto (Oct 2, 2013)

If only our political leaders WOULD listen to their fathers. Was his dads doctrine not good enough? He must have taught him a few things. Did he not listen? Who will Ed Milliband be in 20 years time?


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Campbell's (justifiable) claims of Dacre's cowardice might have carried more weight if they'd come from an actual Labour politician. Where were they?


 
Prescott has been all over the media having a pop at Dacre


----------



## where to (Oct 2, 2013)

brogdale said:
			
		

> Campbell's (justifiable) claims of Dacre's cowardice might have carried more weight if they'd come from an actual Labour politician. Where were they?



They have to avoid telling press what they can say.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:


> Cant wait for for tomorrow edition where they provide some background to Stalins Russia apparently


 Fuck me talk about desperate


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> A disgusting obnoxious slimey cunt....and Alister Campbell




What a prize pair of arseholes.


----------



## coley (Oct 2, 2013)

8115 said:


> Well, loads of free publicity for the Daily Mail, for a start.


And Millipede, a few quiet words of disdain for the article would have been appropriate, the " look at me taking on the DM" seems more of a publicity stunt than a defence of his father.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/385167178586005505
Expect a smear story on Lineker in the wail over the next few days


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 2, 2013)

Gary Lineker?!


----------



## Jollity Farm (Oct 2, 2013)

I think a number of Conservative-voting people have been unimpressed with this Mail article, not just people who hated the Mail already. To pen an article which essentially says "yeah, well, YOUR DAD was a dirty foreign communist, so ner!" does look a tiny bit like the paper hasn't got anything substantial to say about actual issues. Even if you think dead relations should be fair game because "freedom of speech!", the piece does rather look like someone who is frightened and fearfully throwing all the objects they can get their hands on. Which isn't really what political commentary should be like.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 2, 2013)

Well there is the argument that as Ed has mentioned his dad in his last three conference speeches, his dad ought to be fair game. Not altogether sure I buy that.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 2, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> still, no one likes red leicester, do they? Not even Communists.





Lo Siento. said:


> this is why we can't have nice things.




I like red leicester *and* am why we can't have nice things. Come at me, bro.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> A disgusting obnoxious slimey cunt....and Alister Campbell



Jesus, that's a pathetic defence. I can't believe they couldn't put someone up who could make a better case.


----------



## shagnasty (Oct 2, 2013)

Will Ed be the first jewish pm though i don't think he is a practicing jew.i think you can discount disraeli because i think he converted to christianity.they probablly would like to attack him for his jewishness.but that could be dangerous game


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

On the right is Adolf Hitler,on the far right is the owner of the Daily Mail.......


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> On the right is Adolf Hitler,on the far right is the owner of the Daily Mail.......


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> On the right is Adolf Hitler,on the far right is the owner of the Daily Mail.......



80 years later the Mail is still going after Jewish communists. Adolf would be proud.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

Humberto said:


> If only our political leaders WOULD listen to their fathers. Was his dads doctrine not good enough? He must have taught him a few things. Did he not listen? Who will Ed Milliband be in 20 years time?


ed miliband, of course


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 2, 2013)

DRINK? said:


> If you have to post up articles from 1936 to back up your belief that the daily mail are cunts, you've probably not been paying attention



"Despite her flaws, the only responsible vote in France next Sunday is one for Marine Le Pen"

"French downgrade shows that Marine Le Pen's role in French public life is not just legitimate but increasingly necessary"

Not much changes though.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1484647/When-Rothermere-urged-Hitler-to-invade-Romania.html


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 2, 2013)

Ken Livingstone was on 5 Live earlier as a friend of the family and revealed that at 17 he would probably have been condemning the Labour government because he'd been brought up a Tory.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 2, 2013)

shagnasty said:


> Will Ed be the first jewish pm though i don't think he is a practicing jew.i think you can discount disraeli because i think he converted to christianity.they probablly would like to attack him for his jewishness.but that could be dangerous game



Disraeli's _da _converted to Xtianity. 

A better example might be Fiorella La Guardia, who was mayor of New York in the 1930s. He was once asked why he never mentioned the fact that he was half-Jewish, and said "half-Jewish ain't enough to brag about".


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Oct 2, 2013)

killer b said:


> it's making me think of andrew sachs for some reason. probably just wishful thinking mind...



Well, it's quite possible that the 50 people who have complained to the PCC so far will bloom to 50 000 by the end of the week. Perhaps the Beeb should be using its output to demand heads roll?


----------



## Ted Striker (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> A disgusting obnoxious slimey cunt....and Alister Campbell




"You use those words quoting bully, coward"...

..."I'm not a coward"


----------



## Favelado (Oct 2, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> "Despite her flaws, the only responsible vote in France next Sunday is one for Marine Le Pen"
> 
> "French downgrade shows that Marine Le Pen's role in French public life is not just legitimate but increasingly necessary"
> 
> Not much changes though.



Fucking hell!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> In a way that's true because instead of talking about policies that scare the shit out of the Tories Ed Miliband and Labour now have to deal with this shit...


They are very happy to have to 'deal with this shit' as it goes - as a) it can easily be linked to those polices that you think scare the shit out of the tories b) associates the tories with underhand attacks c) knocks the tory party conference off the headlines c) allows labour leadership to pose as quiet decent people instead of the murderers that they are d) it means they don't have to actually give any details about those scary policies. It's a a perfcet gift for them and they didn't even have to do anything to earn it. That said, it's political outcome will be zilch - expect for giving the mail obsessives the chance of some internt-verbal-violence.

edit: i now see that this has been pointed out by killer b and others already.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

treelover said:


> Blair must be in despair, alright Labour haven't really abandoned his policies but the carefully honed and triangulated image of NL he created and cultivated has well and truly gone down the pan.


Why? How? Triangulation didn't involve appealing to the sort of people who would lap this nonsense up. if anything this has allowed them to now pose as representing that silent decent majority (or whatever horrible phrase it is this week) thus filling out and occupying the centre of that triangle. What has failed in the Mails wedge/polarisation agenda because people simply aren't buying it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Housemans making the most of this and have done out one of their windows in Ralph Miliband books:


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 2, 2013)

The Mail's former political editor, Benedict Brogan produced this bilge.


> The reaction to the Daily Mail's attack on Ralph Miliband tells us how remote the Cold War has become in British politics. Nearly 25 years have passed since Mikhail Gorbachev threw in the towel and gave up on the USSR's dreams of Soviet world domination. The fall of the Berlin Wall marked the end of superpower confrontation and the threat of nuclear conflagration. It also marked the beginning of what has become a form of social and political amnesia. Until that point the struggle between freedom and communism defined the world my generation grew up in. Our view was shaped by a deadly struggle to see off the threat of red tyranny. It was a world far removed from the more consensual politics we enjoy now. Before 1989 the divide between the good guys and bad guys was clear, because the bad guys were out to do us in. At its most extreme, the Cold War was about fear, about nuclear brinkmanship, fallout shelters, cruise missiles, five minutes to midnight and The Day After. And the Cold War filtered through to everyday politics. Labour wanted unilateral disarmament, and some of its members were all too willing to excuse communism and play the role of useful idiot for the tyrants of Moscow. By the time Labour came to power in 1997, the Cold War was already fading from memory and no one was interested in whether a Cabinet minister had thought it acceptable years before to take Communist money for a jolly to Cuba, or had dabbled with political groups whose directing strands could be followed to the other side of the Iron Curtain. Now it has all but disappeared from common memory: while the Second World War still dominates the collective consciousness, the Cold War, which posed the same existential threat to Britain as a nation, is all but forgotten.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/b...h-miliband-was-one-of-the-cold-wars-bad-guys/



Two massive paragraphs of red-baiting shite.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 2, 2013)

Good. If a few more people read Parliamentary Socialism the left in this country would be all the better for it.

The Michael Newman book is really good too.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

They could also do with the appallingly titled Paradigm Lost: State Theory Reconsidered by Stanley Aronowitz and Peter Bratsis


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The Mail's former political editor, Benedict Brogan produced this bilge.
> 
> 
> Two massive paragraphs of red-baiting shite.


Dig for victory, chaps. Dig for victory.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2013)

I watched the newsnight thing - god i hate Emily Maitlis - anyone notice how she called Ralph a "*rabid* Marxist"? With Crick and Mason gone its a real right-wing rump of presenters left on Newsnight. She's out of her depth in these kind of interviews. Another memorable example of her unable to hide her bias:


----------



## teqniq (Oct 2, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Dig for victory, chaps. Dig for victory.



Yes, a nice big hole. I really hope they come badly unstuck over this.


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

> The first Lord Rothermere – the great-grandfather of the current owner of the newspaper – made the remarks in a letter intercepted by the security service during surveillance of a suspected German agent. *But MI5 shied away from taking action against the press baron, whose sympathy for Oswald Mosley's Blackshirts was already well-known*.


 
This is while they and Special Branch were persecuting members of the National Unemployed Workers Movement(NUWM)


----------



## redcogs (Oct 2, 2013)

This is the most enjoyable thread that i've seen in the short time i've been coming here  

Somehow seeing Dac*nt and the Wail getting a sound kicking is a really enjoyable experience - all that is required now (to complete my day) is for the focus to widen to include a few other obnoxious journos who need their nails trimmed (with pliers).  Anyone for Kelvin scumshit mackenzie and Melanie Brevik Philips. ?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

I


ska invita said:


> I watched the newsnight thing - god i hate Emily Maitlis - anyone notice how she called Ralph a "*rabid* Marxist"? With Crick and Mason gone its a real right-wing rump of presenters left on Newsnight. She's out of her depth in these kind of interviews. Another memorable example of her unable to hide her bias:



Did she really say that? Was she quoting or something?


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1484647/When-Rothermere-urged-Hitler-to-invade-Romania.html


 

Incredible that Hitlers favourite spy may have been part jewish.


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

ska invita said:


> I watched the newsnight thing - god i hate Emily Maitlis - anyone notice how she called Ralph a "*rabid* Marxist"? With Crick and Mason gone its a real right-wing rump of presenters left on Newsnight. She's out of her depth in these kind of interviews. Another memorable example of her unable to hide her bias:




wouldn't call Paxo right wing, part of the awkward squad, imo


----------



## gosub (Oct 2, 2013)

http://www.intmensorg.info/harmsworth.htm

*4th Viscount Rothermere, the 43 year old Daily Mail owner is worth a cool £1,020,000,000. Jonathan inherited his family fortune of over £1b in 1998 and ironically given the Mail’s anti-French – well, anti-everybody not English – stance is, er, French. Athough only for UK tax purposes, the avoidance of, you understand… *


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

treelover said:


> Incredible that Hitlers favourite spy may have been part jewish.


And she was also involved post-war in the extremely virulent red-baiting Springer and Stern press - papers that made the Mail look like the Beano, papers that actually openly called for the murder of people like Rudi Dutschke in clear deliberate echoes of pre-war papers call for the murder of Luxemburg and Liebknecht. (And now i think of it, they also jew-baited Cohn-Bendit at the same time i think).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2013)

ska invita said:


> I watched the newsnight thing - god i hate Emily Maitlis - anyone notice how she called Ralph a "*rabid* Marxist"? With Crick and Mason gone its a real right-wing rump of presenters left on Newsnight. She's out of her depth in these kind of interviews. Another memorable example of her unable to hide her bias:




Jaysus what a twat 

The woman from UKuncut does brilliantly to fuck off her stupid questions though. She's careful to use the phrase 'property damage' in her reply when Maitliss talks about 'violence' as well.


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Jaysus what a twat
> 
> The woman from UKuncut does brilliantly to fuck off her stupid questions though. She's careful to use the phrase 'property damage' in her reply when Maitliss talks about 'violence' as well.


 
Yes, she was excellent, shame she hasn't been on more recently on the media(not invited?)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Bloody hell, they have 4 different stories on the USSR, Stalinism etc today. Highlights include: Leftist bullies, My mother’s Marxist hell, Hypocrites on the Left, Off to the gulag, Who wants communism?

edit: oh yeah, and Michael Burleigh doing a fantastic bit of guilt by association to suggest that Ed Miliband wants to kill 15-20 million people,


----------



## gosub (Oct 2, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/oct/02/daily-mail-editor-paul-dacre-new-contract


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 2, 2013)

fucking brilliant piece of PR this week eh! Just watched Heseltine on the politics show before there , and even HE sounded reasonable compared to the mad bastards , in fact if they weren't £18 i would get meself one of them Daily Mash tshirts "like spending 20 minutes in a mental hospital"


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Bloody hell, they have 4 different stories on the USSR, Stalinism etc today. Highlights include: Leftist bullies, My mother’s Marxist hell, Hypocrites on the Left, Off to the gulag, Who wants communism?
> 
> edit: oh yeah, and Michael Burleigh doing a fantastic bit of guilt by association to suggest that Ed Miliband wants to kill 15-20 million people,



Read your history - a temporary freeze on electricity bills and a modest extension of child care provision has ever been the first act of mass murdering tyrants.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I
> 
> Did she really say that? Was she quoting or something?


I should double check really, i watched it over breakfast
- okay, transcript went like this:

Jon Staefel: "his perspective politically was that of a Marxist, of a marxist ideology, he was a supporter of a marxist ideology being used to run governments around the world [paraphrase, a very bad thing - communism killed millions of people] 
Emily M: So was the point of this article that your paper implies that Ed Milliband Hates Britain and is now a rabid Marxist, or a Communist?

...by implication she say that Ralph was a rabid marxist - rabid is a very loaded word and beyond anything the Mail man said - it was her own word she threw in, her own bias.

maybe its nothing - i just dont like her anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2013)

treelover said:


> wouldn't call Paxo right wing, part of the awkward squad, imo


i would, i just think he hides his bias better than others. its faux indignant in most cases.
there was a funny interview about right wing bias/elitism in cultural life (IIRC) that Paxman chaired, interviewing some other right-wing guy (i forget who), and Paxman got pawned when the guy so, 'Oh, Lord So and So said he looks forward to seeing you at the manor house for a spot of grouse shooting this weekend' Paxman was flummoxed!


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)




----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

ska invita said:


> I should double check really, i watched it over breakfast
> - okay, transcript went like this:
> 
> Jon Staefel: "his perspective politically was that of a Marxist, of a marxist ideology, he was a supporter of a marxist ideology being used to run governments around the world [paraphrase, a very bad thing - communism killed millions of people]
> ...


Cheers. I seem to remember she comes from a traditionally leftist family or something. Sure i recall people being surprised that she didn't scab on one of the BBC strikes until her background was brought up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2013)

Tbf to Maitland, that reads as though she's purposely using Mail language back at them.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Tbf to Maitland, that reads as though she's purposely using Mail language back at them.


yeah maybe - but im biased against her! It would never come in my mind to use the word rabid though


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Why does the mail still use a *NAZI FONT* for its masthead?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

There is absolutely no need or reason to be fair to Maitland.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2013)

And tbevenfairer to Maitlis, her name isn't Maitland.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

That's very true!


----------



## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

Cracking move by the Mail this. .

Miliband is now getting sympathy from all kinds of people who previously didn't give a fuck either way.

The Mail, and by extension, the Tories look "nasty and petty".

The Mail's own "evil legacy" is dragged out again.

...and they've managed to remind people of the prior existence of real, viable, concrete alternative to Capitalism. They have dragged "socialism" blinking and shivering into the cold light of day much to the disgust of those who've spent the last twenty years trying to write a narrative casting capitalism as the natural and only way of things.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

That said, I doubt in the longer term this, on its own, will make much difference. But every little helps.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Cheers. I seem to remember she comes from a traditionally leftist family or something. Sure i recall people being surprised that she didn't scab on one of the BBC strikes until her background was brought up.


QUOTE:

Very much in the public domain, Maitlis lives what a friend describes as a "double life". Her husband, Mark Gwynne, a banker for Merrill Lynch, was brought up as a "polo-playing, hunting, shooting and fishing" sort. While the couple live a cosmopolitan life in Notting Hill with their 19-month-old son Milo Atticus (named after a Greek wrestler from around 550BC), they also enjoy glamorous parties in the country where Gwynne's parents own a notable property.

"It's a bit of a closet secret that she's married to a country squire type," says the friend. "I don't think Emily has really totally got to grips with the English countryside. But she's a good sport. She wasn't born and bred into it, but she's a mucker-in. She's very well liked and popular with both the financial hedge fund banking crowd and arty-farty media types. It's quite unusual to blend in both worlds."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/emily-maitlis-a-lot-of-front-470513.html

not the best credentialls


----------



## redcogs (Oct 2, 2013)

Would it be too sexist to observe that her high heeled shoes indicate everything you need to know about Ms Maitlis?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 2, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/oct/02/daily-mail-editor-paul-dacre-new-contract

So apparently the Daily Mail have given Dacre a new five year contract and it doesn't look like they're backing down an inch. Are they going to be like this all the way to the general election now? Is this them moving to the right of Cameron, perhaps threatening to endorse UKIP at a euro election, maybe even the general election? Or is this the Tories going for broke, and Lynton Crosby and co getting desperate and trying to get the right-wing press to take the gloves off. Ed Miliband's personal poll ratings have improved a lot after the Labour conference according to Yougov, the Ralph Miliband piece could be a cack-handed response to that? The Tories were speaking of Ed Miliband's personal unpopularity as their secret weapon, so maybe they it was panic?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2013)

redcogs said:


> Would it be too sexist to observe that her high heeled shoes indicate everything you need to know about Ms Maitlis?


i think it would. She does wear a lot of flash sparkley jewelery though... def not really a rabid marxist look


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> Cracking move by the Mail this. .
> 
> Miliband is now getting sympathy from all kinds of people who previously didn't give a fuck either way.
> 
> ...


all they are concerned with is selling a bunch of papers and keeping up circulation so this has been a good move by them!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> all they are concerned with is selling a bunch of papers and keeping up circulation so this has been a good move by them!


No, that's a wider concern but this is not about that. Why do you think they keep mentioning the reforms of the press or the mooted energy price freeze. Things like this are not just financially driven they are politically driven too. This was almost wholly a political operation.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 2, 2013)

The Daily Mash has excelled itself with this story, actually.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 2, 2013)

Tories being wishy-washy about criticising this - all Cameron would say was that he would be angry if they went for his dad in that way, Shapps refused to condemn the Mail, ditto Hague.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2013)

treelover said:


> Yes, she was excellent, shame she hasn't been on more recently on the media(not invited?)



...or maybe they have a policy of not reusing the same spokespersons. But given how badly Maitliss got owned in that interview I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC mysteriously lost that woman's phone number.

That and the BBC only talk about protest groups when shit gets smashed up. A bit hypocritical of them to then condemn property damage as a protest tactic.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, that's a wider concern but this is not about that. Why do you think they keep mentioning the reforms of the press or the mooted energy price freeze. Things like this are not just financially driven they are politically driven too. This was almost wholly a political operation.


You're right, I was wrong to say selling papers is All they are concerned with of course... but, this has been (once again, like every time they do something similar) very successful in selling more copies. So i wouldn't say it was wholly a political operation, they wouldn't have done it if it wasn't going to sell more papers.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 2, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Tories being wishy-washy about criticising this - all Cameron would say was that he would be angry if they went for his dad in that way, Shapps refused to condemn the Mail, ditto Hague.


 
The Tories and the Mail are essentially both pushing the same 'red ed' line, but the tories aren't cack handed enough to do it through his father. They don't want to be associated with the Mail's campiagn, not least because a paper fairly well known for backing the nazis attacking a war veteran of Normandy just isn't a good look. But they won't want to alienate the Mail or its readership either, so they're just staying out of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> You're right, I was wrong to say selling papers is All they are concerned with of course... but, this has been (once again, like every time they do something similar) very successful in selling more copies. So i wouldn't say it was wholly a political operation, they wouldn't have done it if it wasn't going to sell more papers.


I doubt it had any effect on hard-copy circulation. It will have boosted visitors to the site though, and they can then sell those figures to advertisers. But again, i can't see this as the primary motivation. There is a much larger political battle currently being fought within the right about how to respond to UKIP and Labours poll lead - this was part of that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

killer b said:


> the rothermeres strike me as a family who know what side their bread is buttered tbh. dacre has presided over their newspaper becoming incredibly successful, at a time when every other paper has tanked - they aren't going to risk someone new atm.



To be scrupulously fair, David English put the _Mail_ on the road to it's current hegemony.  Dacre picked up the ball and successfully ran with it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 2, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Tories being wishy-washy about criticising this - all Cameron would say was that he would be angry if they went for his dad in that way, Shapps refused to condemn the Mail, ditto Hague.


You should have seen Gove's defence. Kinell.


----------



## killer b (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be scrupulously fair, David English put the _Mail_ on the road to it's current hegemony.  Dacre picked up the ball and successfully ran with it.


i was careful in my post not to say that dacre was responsible for the mail's current success. regardless of who is responsible (and he must share some of the glory, such as it is), he's going nowhere (as rothermere conveniently confirmed to tatler...)


----------



## pinkmonkey (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I doubt it had any effect on hard-copy circulation. It will have boosted visitors to the site though, and they can then sell those figures to advertisers. But again, i can't see this as the primary motivation. There is a much larger political battle currently being fought within the right about how to respond to UKIP and Labours poll lead - this was part of that.



I think all they_ really_ care about is website hits as more hits = more advertising profit. How many 'outraged' people who would never buy the paper go to the website thus generating more hits & more profit?  How many of these would consider to boycott the website? The website is very profitable, whatever you think about the content, it *is* the best designed news website out there, from a web design perspective, easy to navigate, attention grabbing.

They 're wiping the floor with the competition, not just here but in the USA. So, I reckon Dacre will continue to see how far he can push it.

But I find it amusing that most DM readers now appear to be UKIP supporters - (my mother  my poor old socialist father must be  ). There does seem to be a Farage character assassination story every day, but it ain't working.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 2, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> You should have seen Gove's defence. Kinell.



Which was?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

pinkmonkey said:


> I think all they_ really_ care about is website hits as more hits = more advertising profit. How many 'outraged' people who would never buy the paper go to the website thus generating more hits & more profit?  How many of these would consider to boycott the website? The website is very profitable, whatever you think about the content, it *is* the best designed news website out there, from a web design perspective, easy to navigate, attention grabbing.
> 
> They 're wiping the floor with the competition, not just here but in the USA. So, I reckon Dacre will continue to see how far he can push it.
> 
> But I find it amusing that most DM readers now appear to be UKIP supporters - (my mother  my poor old socialist father must be  ). There does seem to be a Farage character assassination story every day, but it ain't working.


Yeah that's part of the internal battle on the right i mentioned. I have a feeling before too long they (the mail) will be using him (Farage) - or the threat of them supporting him - to try and strong arm Cameron into adopting this sort of loony red-baiting as an election strategy.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Oct 2, 2013)

Deck chair and popcorn time  -  it almost resembles a bulletin board troll war


----------



## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I doubt it had any effect on hard-copy circulation. It will have boosted visitors to the site though, and they can then sell those figures to advertisers. But again, i can't see this as the primary motivation. There is a much larger political battle currently being fought within the right about how to respond to UKIP and Labours poll lead - this was part of that.



Not just this..

But also there are, and you can see this in the Govt too, a number of fairly inept people on the right who have risen to prominence who are using their proximity to power to indulge in a bit of ideological posturing.

Much of this is a retarded neo-Thatcherism that has ended up aping elements from that regime (trying to re-fight the Cold War in this case, Gove's ongoing attempt to engineer his own "Miners' Strike" moment with the teachers is another example).

However, many of those engaged in such antics are too out of touch with mainstream society, and too ensconced in a bubble, to maintain a credible and viable ideology for the continuation of the neo-liberal project. They are changing from useful idiots, to mere idiots (see Farage) whose time is rapidly drawing to a close.

Thus far, colder and saner heads on the right and within capital have indulged these children as it has converged with their own agenda of profiteering. As the wheels come off we'll see this backing shifted pretty quickly. This may already have started.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

Nice comment on Bone's blog from 'RDH'...



> My late father, who worked all his life on Newport docks for fuck all, used to say, “If I wiped my arse with the Daily Mail then I’d have to flush my arse down the toilet.”
> 
> Stomp em ALL down. Hard.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2013)

Bad misjudgement from the Tory cabinet on this with their lukewarm non-condemnation. Heseltine's come out condemning it in the way they should have done, which just makes them look even worse.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 2, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Which was?


Let's put it this way: he couldn't hide his shit-eating grin. He also repeated the line used by defenders of the Mail article by saying something along the lines of "the paper was doing its job".


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> Not just this..
> 
> But also there are, and you can see this in the Govt too, a number of fairly inept people on the right who have risen to prominence who are using their proximity to power to indulge in a bit of ideological posturing.
> 
> ...


Yep. How did they ever manage to allow things to reach this stage. I've posted elsewhere on here what i think the dominance of the political management that representatives of short-term financial-capital component of the tory coalition brings - and we're seeing those results pretty clearly now. We're starting to see a political crash that mirrors the financial crash.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bad misjudgement from the Tory cabinet on this with their lukewarm non-condemnation. Heseltine's come out condemning it in the way they should have done, which just makes them look even worse.


At the same time as he is openly and aggressively condemning UKIP as racist powellites. Total mess.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> Let's put it this way: he couldn't hide his shit-eating grin. He also repeated the line used by defenders of the Mail article by saying something along the lines of "the paper was doing its job".


Gove started this idiot red baiting last year i think.


----------



## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yep. How did they ever manage to allow things to reach this stage. I've posted elsewhere here the result of the dominance of the political management that representatives of short-term financial capital component of the tory coalition brings - and we're seeing those results pretty clearly now. We're starting to see a political crash that mirrors the financial crash.



Fuck yeah.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> Let's put it this way: he couldn't hide his shit-eating grin. He also repeated the line used by defenders of the Mail article by saying something along the lines of "the paper was doing its job".



yep, it was just more of his Levenson cock-waggling about the 'free press'. Twat.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Gove started this idiot red baiting last year i think.


It's part of his genetic make-up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

killer b said:


> i was careful in my post not to say that dacre was responsible for the mail's current success. regardless of who is responsible (and he must share some of the glory, such as it is), he's going nowhere (as rothermere conveniently confirmed to tatler...)



At least, not for another 14 months, minimum.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Oct 2, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Tories being wishy-washy about criticising this - all Cameron would say was that he would be angry if they went for his dad in that way, Shapps refused to condemn the Mail, ditto Hague.



They're staring down the barrel of a Mail endorsement of UKIP at the Euros, that's why.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2013)

King Biscuit Time said:


> They're staring down the barrel of a Mail endorsement of UKIP at the Euros, that's why.


And alienating themselves from a lot of tory voters in the process. Even a lot of UKIP voters will be alienated by it, I'd have thought - the man took part in the Normandy landings ffs.

fwiw, if I were a tory adviser, I'd be advising them to take the line that Miliband snr was a war hero who fought for the right to disagree over politics.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 2, 2013)

Guardian columnist doing a pretty good job of summing up the observations on this thread.



> So, to recap the effects of that Daily Mail article on Ralph Miliband: It robbed the Conservative party conference of the headlines it expected – it was ahead of any of their policy announcements all yesterday in most news bulletins, across most channels. It reinforced Ed Miliband's image, for the second week running, as someone of integrity who stands up to bullies. It secured him sympathy and support from most political opponents. It caused a social media reaction which refreshed everyone's memory about the Daily Mail's historical links with Mosley and Hitler. It even managed to revive interest in the Leveson inquiry's recommendations. All in all, it was the journalistic equivalent of a glorious Stan Laurel pratfall.



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-campbell-mail-terrifying-brilliant-immigrant


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

ska invita said:


> QUOTE:
> 
> Very much in the public domain, Maitlis lives what a friend describes as a "double life". Her husband, Mark Gwynne, a banker for Merrill Lynch, was brought up as a "polo-playing, hunting, shooting and fishing" sort. While the couple live a cosmopolitan life in Notting Hill with their 19-month-old son Milo Atticus (named after a Greek wrestler from around 550BC), they also enjoy glamorous parties in the country where Gwynne's parents own a notable property.
> 
> ...


To go back to this:



> Labour Party leader Ed Miliband urged BBC staff not go ahead with the industrial action, saying it was only fair that Prime Minister David Cameron's speech was covered by the BBC.
> 
> "My speech was seen and heard on the BBC and in the interests of impartiality and fairness, so the prime minister's should be," he said.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

Alex Andreou, New Statesman writer, pretty sharp


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> You should have seen Gove's defence. Kinell.


His missus has a column in the shit rag,hardly going to bite the hand etc.......


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 2, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> His missus has a column in the shit rag,hardly going to bite the hand etc.......


True dat.


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 2, 2013)

This all reminds me a little of that famous backfiring speech by Churchill when Attlee went against him.



> *"There can be no doubt that socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state. Socialism is in its essence an attack not only upon British enterprise, but upon the right of the ordinary man or woman to breathe freely without having a harsh, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils. (Labour) would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance." *


----------



## marty21 (Oct 2, 2013)

I remember the Mail getting the right hump when people were celebrating Thatcher's death and slagging her off - said it wasn't appropriate to speak ill of the dead (or words to that effect)


----------



## marty21 (Oct 2, 2013)

King Biscuit Time said:


> They're staring down the barrel of a Mail endorsement of UKIP at the Euros, that's why.


 it just gets betterer and betterer


----------



## killer b (Oct 2, 2013)

Unlikely imo. They'll make dark threats in th direction, endorse some Ukip policies and use the threat to try to influence tory policy, but I'll eat my hat if they actually come out for Ukip.


----------



## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

killer b said:


> Unlikely imo. They'll make dark threats in th direction, endorse some Ukip policies and use the threat to try to influence tory policy, but I'll eat my hat if they actually come out for Ukip.



They might not.

But they might well use one or two pet columnists to "individually" call for a UKIP vote.

Then again, they might just go for it.


----------



## killer b (Oct 2, 2013)

I'll eat it without seasoning. Not even ketchup.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> They might not.
> 
> But they might well use one or two pet columnists to "individually" call for a UKIP vote.
> 
> Then again, they might just go for it.



They might well call for the parties to work together/UKIP not to stand where approved Tory nut jobs are incumbent?


----------



## marty21 (Oct 2, 2013)

somehow can't imagine that the Tories will get a post conference bounce in the opinion polls - #omnishambles


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron did you finish that article in the end?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

shagnasty said:


> Will Ed be the first jewish pm though i don't think he is a practicing jew.i think you can discount disraeli because i think he converted to christianity.they probablly would like to attack him for his jewishness.but that could be dangerous game


dizzy certainly jewish enough for rothermere or hitler.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

marty21 said:


> somehow can't imagine that the Tories will get a post conference bounce in the opinion polls - #omnishambles


i don't know, do people bounce when they jump from high up?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Gove started this idiot red baiting last year i think.




teaching strike where he called em all trots?


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Oct 2, 2013)

gosub said:


> http://www.intmensorg.info/harmsworth.htm
> 
> *4th Viscount Rothermere, the 43 year old Daily Mail owner is worth a cool £1,020,000,000. Jonathan inherited his family fortune of over £1b in 1998 and ironically given the Mail’s anti-French – well, anti-everybody not English – stance is, er, French. Athough only for UK tax purposes, the avoidance of, you understand… *



What kind of ultra shit failure of a wannabe capitalist inherits "over £1b" then 15 years later is worth almost precisely "over £1b"?  Put it in a post office current account and he'd have made more than that.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 2, 2013)

DMGT shares were victim to a cyclical downturn in ad spend and a structural decline in publishing models. To be fair.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 2, 2013)

Wont the french hammer him for being rich bwhaahahahahahah.
D day veteran smeared by facist loving tabloid​


----------



## gosub (Oct 2, 2013)

If you spend most of your time out of your country your tax bill goes down


----------



## D'wards (Oct 2, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Nice comment on Bone's blog from 'RDH'...


 I do like the story that on every flight he takes Alistair Campbell asks for a copy of the Daily Mail. 
He then carefully tears it into pieces and hands it back to the flight attendant.


----------



## framed (Oct 2, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Nice comment on Bone's blog from 'RDH'...
> 
> My late father, who worked all his life on Newport docks for fuck all, used to say, “If I wiped my arse with the Daily Mail then I’d have to flush my arse down the toilet.”



_"...worked all his life... for fuck all" _ ???

This is the Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch, is it not?


----------



## Belushi (Oct 2, 2013)

Alan Sugar slagging the Mail off on C4 News atm, he's no Dacre fan


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

How loathed do you have to be when even cunts like Sugar and Cambell are sticking an opportunistic boot in?


----------



## stavros (Oct 2, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Alan Sugar slagging the Mail off on C4 News atm, he's no Dacre fan



Sugar is a Labour peer and a major donor (two facts which are of course in no way related). I'm not sure which brother he preferred, or if he'd rather have had some Balls.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 2, 2013)

Probably been already posted, but here is Dan Hodges on the story: "If Ed Miliband wanted his father to be off limits, he should have kept quiet about him".



> Dan Hodges is a former Labour Party and GMB trade union official, and has managed numerous independent political campaigns. He writes about Labour with tribal loyalty and without reservation.


 
No he fucking doesn't.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 2, 2013)

Goodness. I usually agree with Hodges but he's gone the wrong way on this one. It's taking Blairite tribal loyalty too far to loathe Ed to the extent that you side with Dacre's bootboys.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Alan Sugar slagging the Mail off on C4 News atm, he's no Dacre fan



Called 'em _*dogs!*_ 

Did Campbell really tweet Dacre's home address? Funny if he did. I bet Libertad will soon pop up with the Heckler.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 2, 2013)

The bloke hated Britain so much he served in the Royal Navy and saw combat in ww2
    When paul dacre and his collection of cunts put their lives at risk for the country then they can critcise him otherwise shut the fuck up.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

likesfish said:


> When paul dacre and his collection of cunts put their lives at risk for the country then they can critcise him otherwise shut the fuck up.



That would rather spoil the fun, though.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The bloke hated Britain so much he served in the Royal Navy and saw combat in ww2
> When paul dacre and his collection of cunts put their lives at risk for the country then they can critcise him otherwise shut the fuck up.


He did hate Britain though. And was right too.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

> A former member of Margaret Thatcher's cabinet has accused the Daily Mail of "telling lies"....http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/02/thatcher-ally-daily-mail-ralph-miliband-lies




 squared


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The bloke hated Britain so much he served in the Royal Navy and saw combat in ww2
> When paul dacre and his collection of cunts put their lives at risk for the country then they can critcise him otherwise shut the fuck up.


right. i don't think it's a good idea, this nonsense about 'if someone's fought for "their country" then only people who have done the same have the right to criticise them'. by your lights, the only people at cable street who'd have had a right to criticise mosley would have been those who'd fought in the first world war


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

it does give the opportunity to say 'you war-shy bastard' a phrase from a tv program that has been amusing me all week. Anyway...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> it does give the opportunity to say 'you war-shy bastard' a phrase from a tv program that has been amusing me all week. Anyway...


so you're a bit 'gung ho' then i suppose


----------



## stavros (Oct 2, 2013)

The Daily Mail's start columnist Richard Littlejohn loves Britain so much he lives in a gated community in Florida.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> so you don't like draft dodgers?




oh no, I consider being war-shy very healthy. The phrase just tickled me for some reason. Simple things


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> oh no, I consider being war-shy very healthy. The phrase just tickled me for some reason. Simple things


i see


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i see




in before your ninja edit as well, unlucky.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> in before your ninja edit as well, unlucky.


i didn't edit

i have no intention of editing


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

The lady's not for editing


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 2, 2013)

brogdale said:


> squared



Is there anybody here who didn't have to google John Moore? He couldn't be more forgotten, really.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 2, 2013)

stavros said:


> The Daily Mail's start columnist Richard Littlejohn loves Britain so much he lives in a gated community in Florida.


   Tbf he is showing his love for the uk by being thousand miles away from it and living with armed nutters that might do the decent thing and shoot him  or scary wildlife that might eat him 
   See he knows how much his death would cheer the uk so hes doing his best to arrange it?
  Anyone wat to help send him a hoody and some skittles?


----------



## likesfish (Oct 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> right. i don't think it's a good idea, this nonsense about 'if someone's fought for "their country" then only people who have done the same have the right to criticise them'. by your lights, the only people at cable street who'd have had a right to criticise mosley would have been those who'd fought in the first world war



That a good point but it is the fucking mail so anything is fair game in giving the cunts a hard time


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Mirror tmw (apparently)







Just a mock-up though surely?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> right. i don't think it's a good idea, this nonsense about 'if someone's fought for "their country" then only people who have done the same have the right to criticise them'. by your lights, the only people at cable street who'd have had a right to criticise mosley would have been those who'd fought in the first world war


Sure. But in this case, you have The Mail dredging up a letter written just after he had arrived here fleeing the Nazis. They've chosen to make the battleground the Nazi period. I find it rather extraordinary that they should do this - had they forgotten what the Mail had done in that period?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

The great thing is that levy piece is ripped off almost word for word from another article by another author in the same paper the week before - itself by an outed plagiarist. (Private school and oxbrige and employee of an oxford college paid for by the nazi loving rothermere).


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The great thing is that levy piece is ripped off almost word for word from another article by another author in the same paper the week before - itself by an outed plagiarist. (Private school and oxbrige and employee of an oxford college paid for by the nazi loving rothermere).



That 'other author' being a senior fellow of the _*Rothermere*_ American Institute at Oxford University....hmmm


----------



## youngian (Oct 2, 2013)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Ralph-Miliband-triggers-furious-debate.html

According to the Mail, its 'critique' has triggered 'debate'

They have listed some of the fine figures that have come to Dacre's defence:
Dan Hodges, Anne McElvoy, Rod Liddle and "many callers to London station LBC"

And if that list of weasely gobshites wasn't enough they have been joined by Michael Gove, Louise Mensch, James Delingpole and Paul Staines.

Only remains for Littlejohn to crawl out from his rock and put his pennys worth in.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 2, 2013)

Thye're calling Hodges a "Labour blogger". He handed his party card in over Syria, I believe.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 2, 2013)

If your prepared to piss on dacre if he was on fire your a wrong en.
  Although wantingto piss on dacre is a perfectly natural


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

youngian said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Ralph-Miliband-triggers-furious-debate.html
> 
> According to the Mail 'critique' has triggered 'debate'
> 
> ...



If cuntlyness were an international sport we'd have a strong team.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 2, 2013)

brogdale said:


> That 'other author' being a senior fellow of the _*Rothermere*_ American Institute at Oxford University....hmmm


Who just so happens to live in Chipping Norton.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> Who just so happens to live in Chipping Norton.



You're not suggesting he might have ridden Raisa as well?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2013)

> Paul Staines



P. Stains. How apt


----------



## Favelado (Oct 2, 2013)

> Daily Mail Readers. Club together for a flux capacitator and fuck off back to the good old days".



Thanks to Viz Twop Tips.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 2, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> teaching strike where he called em all trots?



Chris Grayling said the same about the workfare row, even accusing the SWP of hacking his email at one point.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 2, 2013)

smokedout said:


> Chris Grayling said the same about the workfare row, even accusing the SWP of hacking his email at one point.



LOL


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 2, 2013)




----------



## killer b (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Mirror tmw (apparently)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the repeating para says 'clearly this spread would be completely absurd so, of course we won't print this tomorrow that would be very silly'

it was doing the rounds last night, not happening sadly...


----------



## where to (Oct 2, 2013)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Alan Sugar slagging the Mail off on C4 News atm, he's no Dacre fan



That was funny. Proposed that people may wish to make their feelings known at Dacres home. But he didn't recommend criminal damage. Lol.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm no fan of Alan Sugar but his attack on the Mail & Dacre was quite enjoyable to watch - "he's a dog" 

Vid here:
http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/10/alan-sugar-slams-paul-dacre-over-miliband-smears/


----------



## where to (Oct 2, 2013)

Owen Jones now promoting a protest outside DM offices. https://m.facebook.com/events/247553875396192

They risk overplaying their hand here.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 2, 2013)

funny, I dont remember him promoting the protest outside the Mail aimed at their treatment of claimants


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 3, 2013)

Dunno if we've had this, I'm told Paul Mason dug it out.

"Nazi Youth In Control" - The Late Rothermere spunks his load in another Jew-hate jizzfest 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/printArticlePdf/83404381/3?print=n


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

> But the truth is the Daily Mail hates Britain more than anyone. It hates its proudest institutions, like the BBC and the NHS, which the Tory Nigel Lawson once described as "the closest the English have to a religion." It hates public sector workers, who range from dinner ladies to nurses - the pillars of our society. It hates trade unionists, who belong to Britain's biggest democratic movement. It hates women generally. It hates Muslims. It hates travellers. In its long, hateful past, it has spewed hate at Jews and gays.


 



smokedout said:


> funny, I dont remember him promoting the protest outside the Mail aimed at their treatment of claimants


 
No mention of claimants even for the protest, this when nearly every other day the DM is promoting its bilious anti welfare agenda, its promoted by the People's Assembly, Rees really doesn't care about the poor, etc does he?


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Dunno if we've had this, I'm told Paul Mason dug it out.
> 
> "Nazi Youth In Control" - The Late Rothermere spunks his load in another Jew-hate jizzfest
> 
> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/printArticlePdf/83404381/3?print=n


 
Pretty damning stuff, has it gone viral?


----------



## Favelado (Oct 3, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be scrupulously fair, David English put the _Mail_ on the road to it's current hegemony.  Dacre picked up the ball and successfully ran with it.



One of the "heroes" of the 1992 election victory, although I can't remember which Tory said that now.


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 3, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/02/thatcher-ally-daily-mail-ralph-miliband-lies

A former member of Margaret Thatcher's cabinet has accused the Daily Mail of "telling lies" about Ralph Miliband after the newspaper claimed that the Marxist writings of the late father of the Labour party leader meant that he hated Britain.

In the biggest blow yet to the Mail editor, Paul Dacre, who has launched a strong defence of his paper's decision to claim that Ralph Miliband had left an "evil legacy", Lord Moore of Lower Marsh said his former tutor was a good man who never had a bad word to say about Britain.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 3, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> I usually agree with Hodges....



What? GTFO


where to said:


> Owen Jones now promoting a protest outside DM offices. https://m.facebook.com/events/247553875396192
> 
> They risk overplaying their hand here.



It's ok Owen clarifies this.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/385538278411075584



*Owen Jones* ‏@*OwenJones84*  8h
@*margotlily* @*jimwaterson* To be honest it's more of a cheerful carnival of the hated rather than a 'RAAHHHH' sort of protest


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover said:


> Pretty damning stuff, has it gone viral?



Classic Rothermere stable...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 3, 2013)

www.whereispauldacre.com


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> What? GTFO
> 
> 
> It's ok Owen clarifies this.
> ...



I wonder who would win in a fight between Dacre and Jones? Dacre has the weight advantage but Jones is younger and probably quicker handed. Think it would go to a judges decision.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 3, 2013)

Jones the Steam-in would give Dacre two achers. Or possibly just one acher if the rumours are correct.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2013)

Badgers said:


> www.whereispauldacre.com


That's brilliant.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 3, 2013)

_


youngian said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Ralph-Miliband-triggers-furious-debate.html

According to the Mail 'critique' has triggered 'debate'

They have listed some of the fine figures that have come to Dacre's defence:
Dan Hodges, Anne McElvoy, Rod Liddle and "many callers to London station LBC"

And if that list of weasely gobshites wasn't enough they have been joined by Michael Gove, James Delingpole and Paul Staines.

Only remains for Littlejohn to crawl out from his rock and put his pennys worth in.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a collective noun for cunts ? With friends like that......._


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

brogdale said:


> You're not suggesting he might have ridden Raisa as well?


I'm saying nothing.


----------



## youngian (Oct 3, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> _Is there a collective noun for cunts ? With friends like that......._



A Dacre?

And when you're being dissed by Alan Sugar for your nasty bullying-
http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/display/playlistref/021013

(Clip on the panel below)


----------



## Nylock (Oct 3, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> _Is there a collective noun for cunts ? With friends like that......._


A 'Tory' of cunts maybe?

E2A:

A 'Clegg' of cunts alliterates better though


----------



## xslavearcx (Oct 3, 2013)

a 'clegg' of cunts is amazing for that collective noun!!


----------



## caleb (Oct 3, 2013)

ignore..


----------



## youngian (Oct 3, 2013)

Speaking of Clegg, who has also suffered similar xenophobic shit from the Mail, he did himself no harm today

Clegg's comments, with Nick Ferrari putting the Mail's side in the interests of journalistic balance of course. And what an utter prick the caller is cannot be expressed in words.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

He shouldn't be allowed to pose as a decent human being off the back of insults to others the frigging parasite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He shouldn't be allowed to pose as a decent human being off the back of insults to others the frigging parasite.


parasite = journalist or parasite = politician?


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He shouldn't be allowed to pose as a decent human being off the back of insults to others the frigging parasite.



True, but he's right in what he said. I'm conflicted 

What I am liking about this is the Mail is being criticised from all sides, and you've got the Tories siding with Miliband in the row. Disasterous week for the Tories overall, with the only thing I've seen in the headlines about their conference is the disgusting plan to take away all benefits for under 25s, which I can't believe many people would support.

We just need the Mail to endorse UKIP or make more noise for them and it's about as good as it gets.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2013)

It's good that they are all sticking up for Miliband against the Daily Mail, but to be honest I can't help but think of the extent to which they have stood up to the Mail over this and think about how little in comparison has been done to push back against the demonisation of the disabled and the unemployed. It's awful that they've slandered Ralph Miliband and it must be really bad for Ed but people are dying and going hungry and those who are so offended on Ed's behalf are silent or if they aren't they don't spend 5% of the time on the truly disadvantaged that they are spending on the legacy of Ralph Miliband.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

The Jewish Chronicle picks up the story.


> The row over the Daily Mail’s attack on Ed Miliband’s father intensified this week when a leading campaigner against antisemitism accused the paper of an anti-Jewish slur.
> 
> In a tweet on Wednesday, John Mann, the chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism, called the article on the late Ralph Miliband a “classical age-old antisemitic smear about disloyal Jews”.
> 
> ...



Personally, I think there was a streak of anti-Semitism running through the Mail's hatchet-job. Yet, this Rabbi, who happens to be a Tory councillor thinks otherwise.



> But Rabbi Alan Plancey, a Conservative councillor in Elstree, Hertfordshire, saw nothing antisemitic in the article. “The Daily Mail are having a go at Mr Miliband and this is nothing to do with him being Jewish. The word isn’t mentioned and I don’t think we should start digging it up and making it into something it isn’t… This is a battle against Labour. The Daily Mail is a Conservative paper, so it’s political.”



He's evidently forgotten the paper's history.

Then there's the wonderfully named Eric Moonman*, a former Labour MP who says:



> “I don’t think for a moment that it’s antisemitism. I must admit, like most Jews, I see dangers everywhere, but I don’t see it in this case.”



Fucks sake. History, people, history!


*Odd for someone who's a dyed in the wool Zionist.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The Jewish Chronicle picks up the story.
> 
> 
> Personally, I think there was a streak of anti-Semitism running through the Mail's hatchet-job. Yet, this Rabbi, who happens to be a Tory councillor thinks otherwise.
> ...



I reckon the DM is quite anti-scemiticism aware these days, they are pretty careful about this issue. As someone mentioned before they got the original article written by a man with a jewish name and Jon Steafel (the guy who got monstered by Campbell) is probably jewish, it's quite a classic jewish name in the UK.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 3, 2013)

Ed Miliband letter to The Mail:
http://labourpress.tumblr.com/post/62985465439/ed-miliband-letter-to-lord-rothermere

(about Mail hacks going to a memorial event for Miliband's Uncle yesterday and trying to interview relatives)


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

smokedout said:


> funny, I dont remember him promoting the protest outside the Mail aimed at their treatment of claimants



Yeah but save your attacks for when the enemy is weak? They are taking hits from all sides at the moment, now is when to go and put the boot in. A protest against their treatment of claimants would attract a couple of dozen if you're lucky and would be roundly ignored - making it mostly a pointless exercise.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> I reckon the DM is quite anti-scemiticism aware these days, they are pretty careful about this issue. As someone mentioned before they got the original article written by a man with a jewish name and Jon Steafel (the guy who got monstered by Campbell) is probably jewish, it's quite a classic jewish name in the UK.


The question is why would any self-respecting Jew write for such a vile rag like the Mail? Surely they know its history? I know Mad Mel wrote for them (she's fucked off to the States) but it baffles me that anyone with a gram of self-respect  would lower themselves in this way. It's like me accepting a role as a mugger or a gang leader on some television crime drama.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2013)

Also can anyone remember Clegg and Cameron coming out against the Mail's attack on Lucy Meadows? Why isn't it worth commenting on a newspaper hounding someone to suicide on the basis of a sex change but slandering a politician's father is worthy of condemnation? Seems like professional/class solidarity to me...


----------



## Zabo (Oct 3, 2013)

"Dear Lord Rothermere,

Yesterday I spoke at a memorial event held at Guy’s Hospital in London for my uncle, Professor Harry Keen, a distinguished doctor who died earlier this year. It was an event in a room on the 29th floor of Guy’s Hospital which was attended only by family members, close friends and colleagues.

I was told by one of my relatives late yesterday evening that a reporter from the Mail on Sunday had found her way into the event uninvited. I also discovered that, once there, she approached members of my family seeking comments on the controversy over the Daily Mail’s description of my late father as someone who “hated Britain”.

My wider family, who are not in public life, feel understandably appalled and shocked that this can have happened.

The Editor of the Mail on Sunday has since confirmed to my office that a journalist from his newspaper did indeed attend the memorial uninvited with the intention of seeking information for publication this weekend.

Sending a reporter to my late uncle’s memorial crosses a line of common decency. I believe it a symptom of the culture and practices of both the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday.

There are many decent people working at those newspapers and I know that many of them will be disgusted by this latest episode. But they will also recognise that what has happened to my family has happened to many others.

I believe no purpose would be served by me complaining to the Press Complaints Commission because it is widely discredited.

Instead, I am writing to you as the owners of the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday because I believe it is long overdue that you reflect on the culture of your newspapers. You should conduct your own swift investigation into who was responsible at a senior level for this latest episode and also who is responsible for the culture and practices of these newspapers which jar so badly with the values of your readers.

There are bigger issues for the people of Britain in the midst of the worst cost of living crisis for a century than intrusion into the life of my family. But the reaction of many people to the Daily Mail’s attacks on my father this week demonstrates that the way your newspapers have behaved does not reflect the real character of our country.

It is now your responsibility to respond.

Ed Miliband"

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...camerons-conference-speech-politics-live-blog


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Also can anyone remember Clegg and Cameron coming out against the Mail's attack on Lucy Meadows? Why isn't it worth commenting on a newspaper hounding someone to suicide on the basis of a sex change but slandering a politician's father is worthy of condemnation? Seems like professional/class solidarity to me...


I think you need to review the chain of events.

Mail attacks Milliband's father.
Milliband feels compelled to respond.  Story blows up.
Other politicians are pressured by wider media to give their opinion.  They realise that they have little choice but to back Milliband up.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The Jewish Chronicle picks up the story.
> 
> Personally, I think there was a streak of anti-Semitism running through the Mail's hatchet-job. Yet, this Rabbi, who happens to be a Tory councillor thinks otherwise.
> 
> ...



of course there is it's a classic anti-semitic accusation 

the only thing that is at issue in my opinion is whether the daily mail said it deliberately. I don't think the writer of the aricle did I think it was spectacularly stupid (although "jealous gods of deuteronomy" wtf bit of a dog whistle - these cunts wouldn't last 5 minutes in the book of deuteronomy ) 

the dual loyalty charge, about disloyal ungrateful Jews working behind the scenes and they're more loyal to diaspora Jewry (and later Israel) is a well known one thats been going on since about the 18th century and before. It's also been said about catholics saying that they were disloyal to the UK and plotting a "popish plot" especially at the time of Guy Fawkes etc. 

anyway whether it was deliberate or not its a ridiculously ill thought piece of propaganda which has backfired spectacularly


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The question is why would any *self-respecting *Jew write for such a vile rag like the Mail? Surely they know its history? I know Mad Mel wrote for them (she's fucked off to the States) but it baffles me that anyone with a gram of self-respect  would lower themselves in this way. It's like me accepting a role as a mugger or a gang leader on some television crime drama.



Aargh! No! By raising the concept of the "self-respecting jew" you invoke the stereotype of the "self-hating jew"! The S-HJ, _the most honest anti-semite of all_? The goyim hate the yiddim, the yiddim hate the yiddim. Where will it all end?

Perhaps - to return to your DM writers - ideology derived from socio-economics over-rides religious affiliation?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

Daily Mail row leads to spike in sales of Ralph Miliband books



> As with all authors specialising in densely-argued, Marxist-informed political thought, the overall sales figures remain modest, but radical bookshops are reporting a knock-on effect from the Daily Mail's focus on "the man who hated Britain".
> 
> And on the biggest bookseller of all, Amazon, Miliband currently occupies two of the top three sales slots in the "socialism" category – the third is a biography of him – and has three titles in the top 5,000 or so bestsellers. Not something to put Stephen King in a sweat, perhaps, but still notable.
> 
> "We've sold many more than we normally do. It's a relative term, but sales are definitely up a few hundred per cent," said Nick Gorecki, co-manager of the long-established radical bookshop Housmans, which set up shop in north London in 1945, five years after Miliband arrived in Britain as a refugee from Belgium.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Also can anyone remember Clegg and Cameron coming out against the Mail's attack on Lucy Meadows? Why isn't it worth commenting on a newspaper hounding someone to suicide on the basis of a sex change but slandering a politician's father is worthy of condemnation? Seems like professional/class solidarity to me...



I thought the Lucy Meadows case was a real missed opportunity for Miliband. It was utterly shabby stuff by Littlejohn and (ime) right out of step with what most people in this country feel to be right and just. He should have really gone for the throat - and he could have attacked Littlejohn (more or less an irrelevance) rather than the Mail directly.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm struggling right now to see how all this is going to end.


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Daily Mail row leads to spike in sales of Ralph Miliband books






butchersapron said:


> But it will not. Literally not a single human being will now go and read MIliband as result of this.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Aargh! No! By raising the concept of the "self-respecting jew" you invoke the stereotype of the "self-hating jew"! The S-HJ, _the most honest anti-semite of all_? The goyim hate the yiddim, the yiddim hate the yiddim. Where will it all end?
> 
> Perhaps - to return to your DM writers - ideology derived from socio-economics over-rides religious affiliation?


That wasn't my intention but then, I'm not sure how "self-respecting" forms a binary with "self-hating".


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Ed Miliband letter to The Mail:
> http://labourpress.tumblr.com/post/62985465439/ed-miliband-letter-to-lord-rothermere
> 
> (about Mail hacks going to a memorial event for Miliband's Uncle yesterday and trying to interview relatives)


 Interesting that Miliband is keeping going on this, he clearly thinks it will either get traction with the voters and make links with public perceptions on hacking - or alternatively it will just disrupt the mail's role in Tory electoral strategy.  Personally, I think the former is unlikely, not sure whether the latter will have much long term impact either.  I've every sympathy with him over his Dad and the mail are vile slithering things, needless to say. However he does sound a bit prissy in this letter and, even though he alludes to it himself, it reminds us he's in a priveliged position vis-a-vis other victims of the media .


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Aargh! No! By raising the concept of the "self-respecting jew" you invoke the stereotype of the "self-hating jew"! The S-HJ, _the most honest anti-semite of all_? The goyim hate the yiddim, the yiddim hate the yiddim. Where will it all end?
> 
> Perhaps - to return to your DM writers - ideology derived from socio-economics over-rides religious affiliation?



self-hating jews (in the real sense of hating jews not the sense of being opposed to the israeli state) aren't a stereotype. they actually exist, i know a couple myself  Like my grandma who said that fat people should be sent to Belsen to lose weight  

plenty of women writers write for the mail given how sexist it is too.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 3, 2013)

People may be buying Ralph M's books (and they may even be real people, not just the likes of us) - but are they _reading_ them?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

The levy article that sparked this was a straightforward re-write of one by another non-jewish writer (and noted plagiarist) the week before. I can only think they chose to ask a Jewish writer to rewrite this as they knew the claims were chock-full of anti-semitic tropes that history has now associated with the Daily Mails support for fascism and nazism. Being aware of not being seen to be anti-semitic isn't the same as not being anti-semitic


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> That wasn't my intention.



Sorry if it didn't come over, I was 95% joking and only 5% serious. IFYSWIM.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> self-hating jews (in the real sense of hating jews not the sense of being opposed to the israeli state) aren't a stereotype. they actually exist, i know a couple myself  Like my grandma who said that fat people should be sent to Belsen to lose weight
> 
> plenty of women writers write for the mail given how sexist it is too.


Holy shit!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


>


They'll be sitting on the shelfs i reckon - same as all those Negri books they never bother to read either.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Sorry if it didn't come over, I was 95% joking and only 5% serious. IFYSWIM.


Fair dinkum.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> plenty of women writers write for the mail given how sexist it is too.


And plenty of women read the mail. Majority female readership.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> Fair dinkum.



The thing is, as frogwoman has posted, it is a historical stereotype within jewish communities but it's a really arcane debate imo.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I'm struggling right now to see how all this is going to end.


 Me too.  Probably nowhere - the mail won't back down, because they can't - that's who they are, what they do. Who knows, may affect the dance between dacre, rothermere, ukip et al, but I suspect it won't do much.  Labour won't keep it up as they've still got to play ball with the media with an election coming up. The mail's too big and too linked to the new labour project (even if it never actually supported them).


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> Holy shit!


she also told me once that david irving had a point


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> she also told me once that david irving had a point


That's quite shocking.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Labour won't keep it up as they've still got to play ball with the media with an election coming up. The mail's too big and too linked to the new labour project (even if it never actually supported them).



But here's the thing - given tat Labour are basically going to take over more-or-less identical economic policies to the coalition, what they need are a series of dog-whistle issues to get their vote out and make them (their voters) feel they have to vote Labour because they are not as bad as the alternative. This kind of row is perfect for that kind of heat-making. It's why I was surprised they didn't go for Littlejohn over the Lucy Meadows suicide - it seemed like the perfect issue to create 'distance' between parties that are almost identical on all the important stuff.

I reckon Labour should keep this one going.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Me too.  Probably nowhere - the mail won't back down, because they can't - that's who they are, what they do. Who knows, may affect the dance between dacre, rothermere, ukip et al, but I suspect it won't do much.  Labour won't keep it up as they've still got to play ball with the media with an election coming up. The mail's too big and too linked to the new labour project (even if it never actually supported them).


I think they are going to keep it going as long as possible - this latest letter gives a good indication. And you can bet they have other incidences kept in reserve as the mail does seem to have been seeking to totally personalise their attacks on him for some time. Keeps the tories PR approach to UKIP voters out of the public eye - winner for them.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> she also told me once that david irving had a point



Fond of the gin, was she?


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> The thing is, as frogwoman has posted, it is a historical stereotype within jewish communities but it's a really arcane debate imo.



because it's true, it's not something that's made up by people who support Israel, it's a real thing and really exists. my grandad said to my dad on a few occasions "you know i'm always surprised there's not more anti-semitism in in the world not less" 

although my family are a bit weird i really doubt they're the only ones out there, there was that guy Joe Cole who did a video around Auschwitz where he said that the holocaust didnt exist and he was jewish. It's because of internalised racism I think, along the same sort of lines I remember reading a thing about a black teacher in South Africa a few years after the end of apartheid who told a white journalist that because of genetics black people had an inferior intelligence


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Fond of the gin, was she?



You'd think so but no, she's just fucking weird. She never drinks. Hates alcohol and has a really good sense of smell for it as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

Actually, this sort of manufactured row is more likely to play the role that the manufactured clause 4 row did for blair than the proposed union reforms. This gives people (not members, the public) a choice of a side to take that then entails taking other positions. And the mail is going to walk right into it as they cannot back down - not now.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think they are going to keep it going as long as possible - this latest letter gives a good indciation. And you can bet they have other incidences kept in reserve as the mail does seem to have been seeking to totally personlaise their attacks on him for some time. Keeps the tories PR approach to UKIP voters out of the public eye - winner for them.



It was interesting in that Alistair Campbell interview that he spoke of his regret that when he wanted Blair to do a daily 'anti-DM' rebuttal, but that Blair was talked out of it by the rest of the cabinet (to Campbell's obvious regret - hence the sense that he was making up for lost opportunities the other night). I'm sure Campbell will be still advising Labour on the quiet and if he is anything to do with it they'll go hard anti-DM.

After all, why not? How many votes will it lose them?


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> That's quite shocking.



yeah my nan is a racist UKIP supporting self-hating jew


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think they are going to keep it going as long as possible - this latest letter gives a good indication. And you can bet they have other incidences kept in reserve as the mail does seem to have been seeking to totally personalise their attacks on him for some time. Keeps the tories PR approach to UKIP voters out of the public eye - winner for them.


yep. and the mail's truculence is almost the perfect foil. it can keep going for as long as they refuse to back down (ie, forever). it's a total gift.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> It was interesting in that Alistair Campbell interview that he spoke of his regret that when he wanted Blair to do a daily 'anti-DM' rebuttal, but that Blair was talked out of it by the rest of the cabinet (to Campbell's obvious regret - hence the sense that he was making up for lost opportunities the other night). I'm sure Campbell will be still advising Labour on the quiet and if he is anything to do with it they'll go hard anti-DM.
> 
> After all, why not? How many votes will it lose them?


Indeed - and Campbell is clearly trying to force them onto that ground with his petition and demand that someone from the mail debates him in full in public. The labour leadership should trust his instincts on this.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think they are going to keep it going as long as possible - this latest letter gives a good indication. And you can bet they have other incidences kept in reserve as the mail does seem to have been seeking to totally personalise their attacks on him for some time. Keeps the tories PR approach to UKIP voters out of the public eye - winner for them.


 Yes, certainly looks that way with the letter.  I suspect they'll be both eyeing an opportunity here whilst also absolutely shitting themselves about the idea of taking on the mail - goes against new lab dna. If the do go for it, they'll have to make it about something else, other victims, battle for decency etc.  They'll also being doing a head count of the stories they know the mail could run about miliband, the shadow cabinet etc.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> because it's true, it's not something that's made up by people who support Israel, it's a real thing and really exists. my grandad said to my dad on a few occasions "you know i'm always surprised there's not more anti-semitism in in the world not less"
> 
> although my family are a bit weird i really doubt they're the only ones out there, there was that guy Joe Cole who did a video around Auschwitz where he said that the holocaust didnt exist and he was jewish. It's because of internalised racism I think, along the same sort of lines I remember reading a thing about a black teacher in South Africa a few years after the end of apartheid who told a white journalist that because of genetics black people had an inferior intelligence



It's definitely true in some ways. We are social animals, we react to general stereotypes and expectations, so enough anti-semticism in non-jews is bound to lead to a certain amount of anti-semitism among jews. Bloody odd though. 

I thought your comparison to women being the main target of the DM was apt - it's obviously misogynistic. Apparently it was the first paper aimed at women back at its creation.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> yeah my nan is a racist UKIP supporting self-hating jew


She's just like the blacks and Asians who support UKIP. Wtf is it with these people? They're usually second generation immigrants too.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> She's just like the blacks and Asians who support UKIP. Wtf is it with these people? They're usually second generation immigrants too.


People often respond to a big public-facing message (such as "We're here to stand up to the cosy Westminster cartel and take politics back to the people") without realising that there is a boiling mass of nastiness being hidden underneath.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

Wilf said:


> If the do go for it, they'll have to make it about something else, other victims, battle for decency etc.  .



This. They can't run this as a personal vendetta, it's got to be standing up for basic values, against the bully-boys, Britain can be better than this etc etc. They must be careful not to over-reach themselves and to remain the dignified-wounded. It's like that headmaster speech about letting the school down, letting your classmates down but mostly letting YOURSELF down. 

I'm surprised the DM has got this so wrong but I'm enjoying it loads.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

Looks like the anti-DM protest has legs, will it be the U.K's Axel Springer moment?, as J Ed says there is hardly any mention of the demonisation of claimants, its going to be about asylum seekers, etc and other liberal causes and John Rees's pet issues. If there is trouble it could backfire, just when the paper is on the backfoot.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> She's just like the blacks and Asians who support UKIP. Wtf is it with these people? They're usually second generation immigrants too.



Best has got to be this guy


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover said:


> Looks like the anti-DM protest has legs, will it be the U.K's Axel Springer moment?, as J Ed says there is hardly any mention of the demonisation of claimants, its going to be about asylum seekers, etc and other liberal causes and John Rees's pet issues. If there is trouble it could backfire, just when the paper is on the backfoot.


'axel springer moment'? do you mean the battle of tegeler weg?


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

a physical protest will be both pointless and meaningless. It will be ignored. Unless it kicks off, but thats unlikely...


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> This. They can't run this as a personal vendetta, it's got to be standing up for basic values, against the bully-boys, Britain can be better than this etc etc. They must be careful not to over-reach themselves and to remain the dignified-wounded. It's like that headmaster speech about letting the school down, letting your classmates down but mostly letting YOURSELF down.
> 
> I'm surprised the DM has got this so wrong but I'm enjoying it loads.


 I'm sure Miliband's PR creatures are already mulling over 'Britain Can Be Better' type slogans.


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover would love this to become about the Mail's attacks on claimants etc. I sympathise, after all the Mail's attack on Miliband is minor compared to its ongoing campaigns of hate and demonisation of the poor.

But, we can't beat the Mail at this. Not now. Not yet. Personally I think it would be exceptionally foolish for "the likes of us" to wade into this. This isn't our battle. Let's just stand on sidelines, watch and laugh.


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> a physical protest will be both pointless and meaningless. It will be ignored. Unless it kicks off, but thats unlikely...



"Red Ed's Rabble"

Why gift them an easy win?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 3, 2013)

chilango said:


> ...Let's just stand on sidelines, watch and laugh


An excellent plan, besides which they've been doing an outstanding job of shooting themselves in the foot over this, Who knows? They may yet have more spectacular fuckups in the bag.


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

chilango said:


> "Red Ed's Rabble"
> 
> Why gift them an easy win?


whatever happens it'll be a footnote. this isn't where the battle's being fought.

edit: as i see you said rather more eloquently in the previous post...


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

chilango said:


> "Red Ed's Rabble"
> 
> Why gift them an easy win?



God yes I bet Labour's leadership are shitting themselves about what could happen. If I was in their office I'd be getting a minibus of dignified labour-voting war-veterans down there quick sharp with their medals polished. TV will lap it up. Free beer afterwards. Ignore the dreadlocks (unless they are REEALLY photogenic). Carnival of Britain. Hoorah!


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Best has got to be this guy



And he's a fucking Scotsman. Ffs.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 3, 2013)

> *Jon Snow* @jonsnowC4
> Mail abuse of Milliband family much worse than we knew: full account Channel 4 News tonight 7.00pm: Mail on Sunday considering apologising


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> And he's a fucking Scotsman. Ffs.



I know. Apparently he's become pretty well-known, the Celtic fans chant his name etc (as in 'give us a wave', not nasty). I can't decide if he's simple (odds on favourite) or a genius situationist comedian in deep cover who will one day write THE definitive manifesto of radical-transformative street theatre.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...camerons-conference-speech-politics-live-blog



> The Press Association has just snapped this.
> 
> Geordie Greig, editor of The Mail on Sunday, today said he "unreservedly" apologised "for a reporter intruding into a private memorial service for a relative of Ed Miliband".


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> I know. Apparently he's become pretty well-known, the Celtic fans chant his name etc (as in 'give us a wave', not nasty). I can't decide if he's simple (odds on favourite) or a genius situationist comedian in deep cover who will one day write THE definitive manifesto of radical-transformative street theatre.



Or a self-hating muslim of course.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> It's definitely true in some ways. We are social animals, we react to general stereotypes and expectations, so enough anti-semticism in non-jews is bound to lead to a certain amount of anti-semitism among jews. Bloody odd though.
> 
> I thought your comparison to women being the main target of the DM was apt - it's obviously misogynistic. Apparently it was the first paper aimed at women back at its creation.



People do feel it, i've felt it, if you are feeling shit about yourself you will find shit like that to feel shit about.

A mate of mine who i did some anti fash stuff with in the past and is anything but a self-hating jew, once said to me when he was depressed that he was so ugly that his nose looked like the cartoons of Jews on Nazi websites. Its possible to take things to a whole new level tho. And some people don't relate it to themselves and they end up viewing things like that as like a sign of weakness in others (but not themselves), it's like my grandma hates all her elderly friends and neighbours on her road talking about their aches and pains because she thinks its a sign of weakness, and its like she's trained herself to be "hard" the same way the self-hating jew thing.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

Also - why hasn't anyone run out this famous line from someone (but I can't remember who and Google has failed me) - during a pre-war hustings a candidate who wasn't born British was heckled about it and answered that "you are just British by chance, I CHOSE to be British" - a killer line in the live arena I think we'd all agree. Applies to Ralph perfectly.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Also - why hasn't anyone run out this famous line from someone (but I can't remember who and Google has failed me) - during a pre-war hustings a candidate who wasn't born British was heckled about it and answered that "you are just British by chance, I CHOSE to be British" - a killer line in the live arena I think we'd all agree. Applies to Ralph perfectly.



I prefer the story of the English candidate who said "I was born an Englishman, and please God, I intend to die an Englishman" - to which a Scotch voice from the back replied, "och aye, man, have ye no ambition?"


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...camerons-conference-speech-politics-live-blog


 Not sure if this is something other than the invasion of memorial service, sounds like it might be:
"Mail abuse of Milliband family much worse than we knew: full account Channel 4 News tonight 7.00pm: Mail on Sunday considering apologising"


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Also - why hasn't anyone run out this famous line from someone (but I can't remember who and Google has failed me) - during a pre-war hustings a candidate who wasn't born British was heckled about it and answered that "you are just British by chance, I CHOSE to be British" - a killer line in the live arena I think we'd all agree. Applies to Ralph perfectly.


The genius Pressburger.


----------



## newbie (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> She's just like the blacks and Asians who support UKIP. Wtf is it with these people? They're usually second generation immigrants too.



and able to think for themselves.  I'm finding the notion that someones politics should be somehow dependent on their race, skin colour or nationality a little peculiar tbh.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> It was interesting in that Alistair Campbell interview that he spoke of his regret that when he wanted Blair to do a daily 'anti-DM' rebuttal, but that Blair was talked out of it by the rest of the cabinet (to Campbell's obvious regret - hence the sense that he was making up for lost opportunities the other night). I'm sure Campbell will be still advising Labour on the quiet and if he is anything to do with it they'll go hard anti-DM.
> 
> After all, why not? How many votes will it lose them?



From the event I attended it seemed that Miliband and Campbell spoke more than once a week. The reason he was on Newsnight the other night is because he's still right at the heart of the team I think.


----------



## Manter (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> she also told me once that david irving had a point



Jesus, seriously??!!

E2a bad choice of exclamation!


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> Jesus, seriously??!!
> 
> E2a bad choice of exclamation!



Yeah I'm serious. before adding "there's no business like shoah business" as well


----------



## Manter (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I'm serious. before adding "there's no business like shoah business" as well


Bloody hell. I'm speechless


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> Bloody hell. I'm speechless



yeah, i think you can see where some of my "issues" come from. she proper hates muslims tho, proper proper hates them.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

but lots of people are going on Saturday, although maybe not as many as the Peoples Assembly hopes..

I think they(The P/A) deleted my post about not mentioning claimants.


----------



## D'wards (Oct 3, 2013)

I think this incident may lead to a real sea-change for the Daily Mail. Even Nick Clegg on LBC this morning referred to them as being full of something like "hate filled bile", and ststed that no one hates more British people, and British ways of life than they do.

The guy from Hacked Off was also on LBC and called it pretty well, saying that traditionally politicians and public figures have been wary of criticising the Mail, lest they become the target of the hate. But that now many people were coming out to condem them there is a real groundswell against them.

In a way its like the media publicising the arrest of the 70's celebrities for sex attacks, and this encouraging other victims to come forward too.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

Yes, but the demo run by the Ex SWP could damage the whole thing, the DM will love lefties protesting out side their offices, attacking the freedom of the press, etc.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

D'wards said:


> I think this incident may lead to a real sea-change for the Daily Mail. Even Nick Clegg on LBC this morning referred to them as being full of something like "hate filled bile", and ststed that no one hates more British people, and British ways of life than they do.
> 
> The guy from Hacked Off was also on LBC and called it pretty well, saying that traditionally politicians and public figures have been wary of criticising the Mail, lest they become the target of the hate. But that now many people were coming out to condem them there is a real groundswell against them.
> 
> In a way its like the media publicising the arrest of the 70's celebrities for sex attacks, and this encouraging other victims to come forward too.


 

Thing is the NOTW closed down but reopened as The Sun on Sunday


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The genius Pressburger.



Ah! Where from?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2013)

newbie said:


> and able to think for themselves.  I'm finding the notion that someones politics should be somehow dependent on their race, skin colour or nationality a little peculiar tbh.



I agree with you to an extent, I once saw a (white, to make it even more stupid) member of the SWP accuse an Asian Tory of being a 'race traitor' but still if you are a Tory or UKIP and not white then the fact of the matter is that you are surrounding yourself and allying yourself with an awful lot of people who genuinely do not like you or people like you on the basis of your race. Every single 'non-white' member of the Conservative Party or UKIP is aware of that, and I do find it odd that anyone puts up with it.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I'm serious. before adding "there's no business like shoah business" as well





Should have been the sub-title of that Norman Finkelstein book _The Holocaust Industry._


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

Two mail on Sunday journalists suspended.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm sure the Daily Mail's made enough enemies over the years for a few of them to pipe up now there's the scent of blood in the water. I bet Michael Heseltine felt very satisfied after speaking out against what they did, as I understand it they gave him a hard time in the early 90's when he was the leading challenger to Thatcher, and they still don't like him for his pro-european attitudes. There must be loads of people waiting to see the day Dacre get's his comeuppance.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Should have been the sub-title of that Norman Finkelstein book _The Holocaust Industry._



shes an absolute bloody nightmare. and loves nigel farage as well


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

The People's Assembly definitely deleted my post asking why claimants, etc weren't mentioned in the 'roster' of DM victims, appalling.


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

well fwiw, i wouldn't want my cause associated with their idiot protest.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

newbie said:


> and able to think for themselves.  I'm finding the notion that someones politics should be somehow dependent on their race, skin colour or nationality a little peculiar tbh.


Do you really think, given UKIP's rhetoric, that those persons who are non-white are truly welcome within their ranks? There's some contradictory consciousness involved in all of this imho.


----------



## newbie (Oct 3, 2013)

I really think other people can make their own minds up.  Whether I agree with them, or can even follow their thought processes, doesn't really matter.  

Expecting someone to think, or act, in some specific way because of their skin colour etc is just silly, as is putting weird labels on those who stray outside their alloted stereotype.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover said:


> The People's Assembly definitely deleted my post asking why claimants, etc weren't mentioned in the 'roster' of DM victims, appalling.



Where did it get deleted from?


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> well fwiw, i wouldn't want my cause associated with their idiot protest.


...although of course, whatever they say they're protesting about, any coverage they do get (and i'm of a mind it's likely to be sparsely attended and ignored) will say that they're rallying in support of ed miliband.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

> Where did it get deleted from?


 

Their FB site for the event

To a point I agree with KB on the problematic nature of the protest, but the fact that such groups are not mentioned speaks volumes, I blame John Rees,


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 3, 2013)

newbie said:


> I really think other people can make their own minds up.  Whether I agree with them, or can even follow their thought processes, doesn't really matter.
> 
> Expecting someone to think, or act, in some specific way because of their skin colour etc is just silly, as is putting weird labels on those who stray outside their alloted stereotype.



Yet, there is a contradiction to what you say and if we take the example of the Scottish Muslim man who joined the EDL then he's clearly not thought it through. The labelling isn't done by me, it's done by those organisations the person in question has joined. Furthermore, those parties or groups tend to view 'race' as a cultural determinant rather than the social construction it is, use the kind of language that alienates those who aren't 'white'. 

I think the term contradictory consciousness is a valid one.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> Ah! Where from?


Apparently he said in in conversation with Christopher Challis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover said:


> The People's Assembly definitely deleted my post asking why claimants, etc weren't mentioned in the 'roster' of DM victims, appalling.


was it an appalling post?


----------



## pesh (Oct 3, 2013)

> *Daily Mali* ‏@*MaliDaily*2h
> The Daily Mali wld like to stress that it has nothing to do with the Daily Mail @*MailOnline* & it loves Ralph Miliband http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-internet-vs-the-daily-mail…


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

It uses the same font as the DM!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover said:


> The People's Assembly definitely deleted my post asking why claimants, etc weren't mentioned in the 'roster' of DM victims, appalling.



If ever a thing was truly created by and for the people, there would be no need to put the word 'people's' in front of it. 

Lots of things that had the word 'people's' in their titles have parodoxically ended up making a lot of people dead, tortured or enslaved.


----------



## youngian (Oct 3, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> The question is why would any self-respecting Jew write for such a vile rag like the Mail? Surely they know its history? I know Mad Mel wrote for them (she's fucked off to the States) but it baffles me that anyone with a gram of self-respect  would lower themselves in this way. It's like me accepting a role as a mugger or a gang leader on some television crime drama.



Its not unusual to butter the bread of some useful idiot to shield yourself when the stakes are high (in this case discrediting Ed M's leadership for daring to depart from the neo-liberal consensus with some mild social democracy). And the Mail is happy to trawl in any sewer to tap into latent prejudices of its readers in the bigoted Gin and Jag stockbroker belts and suburbs.

The thing that most shocked me about Levy's article when first reading it was this sentence-



> This was the immigrant boy whose first act in Britain was to discard his name Adolphe because of its associations with Hitler, and become Ralph, and who helped his father earn a living rescuing furniture from bombed houses in the Blitz.



Is that a tribute to the Milibands bravely getting stuck in to help the war effort? Or a nasty little innuendo that they were a pair Fagin type characters looting houses?


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

wow.



> The right fear that, if Labour were to win in 2015, it would inflict a possibly fatal blow to the free market fundamentalist political consensus. It will show it is possible to win on a different sort of programme, including one that at least hints at challenging an arrogant elite all too accustomed to wealth and power being generously shovelled in their direction by successive governments.



http://owenjonesramblings.tumblr.co...-prepared-the-right-are-preparing-all-out-war

edit: whoops, its a few days old. sorry if it's been posted already. wtf though.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

why wow kb? wow that he think Labour are offering "a different sort of programme" that in any way contradicts " the free market fundamentalist political consensus"


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

yer.


----------



## caleb (Oct 3, 2013)

> *Brian Whelan* ‏@*brianwhelanhack*2h
> Weird to see the left bigging up their 'British war veteran', can they not defend Miliband as Marxist academic opposed to Stalinism?


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

the 'possible fatal blow' was a bit lol too.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> why wow kb? wow that he think Labour are offering "a different sort of programme" that in any way contradicts " the free market fundamentalist political consensus"


 "Red Ed's Dead Dad Reaches Out From Beyond the Grave to Freeze Your Gas Bill"


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

> Weird to see the left bigging up their 'British war veteran', can they not defend Miliband as Marxist academic opposed to Stalinism?


 
"Uncle Joe's Henchman Nicked Me Nan's Sideboard in the Blitz"


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> wow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same rubbish we heard before the 1997 election. And 1983. And 74. And 66.


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

Wilf said:


> "Red Ed's Dead Dad Reaches Out From Beyond the Grave to Freeze Your Gas Bill"


did miliband sr. have a dog? if so, does it live on?


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2013)

Ramblings is about right, though

...*the right believe* that Ed Miliband has veered off script, abandoning the free market fundamentalist consensus established by Thatcherism in favour of what - by historical standards - is pretty mild social democracy...​
Surely only the most rabid and frothing representatives of the right can genuinely think that Ed Miliband is genuinely challenging or abandoning the free market fundamentalist consensus, or does OwenJ really believe it too?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

caleb said:


> Brian Whelan ‏@brianwhelanhack2h
> Weird to see the left bigging up their 'British war veteran', can they not defend Miliband as Marxist academic opposed to Stalinism?


Who is he on about? The only people who've actually defended him on those grounds  are pretty much mainstream politicians across all parties. Not 'the left'. And i didn't note Brian offering any in-depth defence of his theories or activity. I did see plenty of leftists digging out specific examples of Miliband attacking stalinism in theory and practice though.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> http://owenjonesramblings.tumblr.co...-prepared-the-right-are-preparing-all-out-war



Those 'ramblings' would make sense were it not for the fact that Miliband is about as much of a threat to the pro-free market political consensus as sexually transmitted diseases are to Michael Gove. Even when defending his dad's socialist ideals Miliband was careful to remind everyone that he doesn't share them, and that all he's after is a marginally less evil form of neoliberal capitalism.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Same rubbish we heard before the 1997 election. And 1983. And 74. And 66.





killer b said:


> did miliband sr. have a dog? if so, does it live on?


 
"Red Ed Channels Michael Foot's Donkey Jacket, Derek Acorah Claims"


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

Wilf said:


> "Red Ed's Dead Dad Reaches Out From Beyond the Grave to Freeze Your Gas Bill"


  welcome back Wilf


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> did miliband sr. have a dog? if so, does it live on?



If it does, it'll be pretty old and toothless by now, just like Miliband junior's take on his dad's socialism


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

andysays said:


> If it does, it'll be pretty old and toothless by now, just like Miliband junior's take on his dad's socialism


i guess what i was wondering was, is red ed's dead dad's dog dead?


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> i guess what i was wondering was, is red ed's dead dad's dog dead?



I'm sure Dacre will be dishing the definitive dirt on red ed's dead dad's dog any day now...


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 3, 2013)

If I thought for just a moment that Ed Miliband was really going to govern on a weak right-of-Harold Wilson Social Democratic basis I'd heed the call and be out there campaigning for him. Not because I'm a social democrat but because the left, weakened as it is, seems to have settled on fighting a desperate rearguard action to protect the core of the welfare state from austerity, and although it's a measure of how weak the left is and how limited it's aspirations are that this is all we aspire to, it's still a wortwhile thing to do all the same. It's a strategy that's concievable, relatively realistic and has a clear measurable outcome, so i'd be prepared to settle for it.

But he won't do any of it. He won't even try, it'll be no different from Francois Hollande. As meagre as those demands and objectives are it's not going to happen. Even if he wanted to, I doubt it would fare any more successfully than Miterrand's attempts at full-blooded social democracy in France in the early 80's, and there was a piece on New Left Project (here) by Andrew Kliman discussing the ultimate futility of this social democracy stuff that uses Mitterand as an example (even though I think Kliman overlooks some differences between France in the 80's and Britain today.) That doesn't mean we should give up the anti-cuts stuff, but should give up the comforting idea that Labour being in government is a realistic way of achieving those modest anti-cuts aims. 

Owen Jones is good at selling Miliband to a certain left audience that Labour has lost. He's the kind of guy who makes you not feel personally guilty for voting Labour and getting your hopes up. Catering to the niche market of lefties.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2013)

This just in:







red ed's dead dad's dog's red too


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> That doesn't mean we should give up the anti-cuts stuff, but should give up the comforting idea that Labour being in government is a realistic way of achieving those modest anti-cuts aims.
> 
> .


 Absolutely, fight the fuckers every step of the way, kick back hard, defend people, defend ourselves - but have nothing but contempt for people who want to use that fight to put Labour back in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> This. They can't run this as a personal vendetta, it's got to be standing up for basic values, against the bully-boys, Britain can be better than this etc etc. They must be careful not to over-reach themselves and to remain the dignified-wounded. It's like that headmaster speech about letting the school down, letting your classmates down but mostly letting YOURSELF down.
> 
> I'm surprised the DM has got this so wrong but I'm enjoying it loads.



The _Daily Mail_ hasn't got it wrong, Paul Dacunt has, and given that Rothermere just signed him up for another year, the _Mail_ newspapers are stuck with Dacunt.  Rothermere is going to be very busy calculating whether it's better to keep Dacunt, neutered or not, or bin him, and the solution may fall on the "bin him" side, if Rothermere thinks the Miliband story will keep on burning much longer.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 3, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> If I thought for just a moment that Ed Miliband was really going to govern on a weak right-of-Harold Wilson Social Democratic basis I'd heed the call and be out there campaigning for him. Not because I'm a social democrat but because the left, weakened as it is, seems to have settled on fighting a desperate rearguard action to protect the core of the welfare state from austerity, and although it's a measure of how weak the left is and how limited it's aspirations are that this is all we aspire to, it's still a wortwhile thing to do all the same. It's a strategy that's concievable, relatively realistic and has a clear measurable outcome, so i'd be prepared to settle for it.
> 
> But he won't do any of it. He won't even try, it'll be no different from Francois Hollande. As meagre as those demands and objectives are it's not going to happen. Even if he wanted to, I doubt it would fare any more successfully than Miterrand's attempts at full-blooded social democracy in France in the early 80's, and there was a piece on New Left Project (here) by Andrew Kliman discussing the ultimate futility of this social democracy stuff that uses Mitterand as an example (even though I think Kliman overlooks some differences between France in the 80's and Britain today.) That doesn't mean we should give up the anti-cuts stuff, but should give up the comforting idea that Labour being in government is a realistic way of achieving those modest anti-cuts aims.
> 
> Owen Jones is good at selling Miliband to a certain left audience that Labour has lost. He's the kind of guy who makes you not feel personally guilty for voting Labour and getting your hopes up. Catering to the niche market of lefties.



Damn you Delroy, I am inclined to agree with that analysis. I think your comparison to Francois Hollande is apposite. Just remember the press reports defining Hollande as a leftist, but now look at what is happening in France - nothing of a left nature at all. I think that Miliband and his advisors have identified a niche market of potential voters to appeal to in the same way as Hollande did, but will not deliver the goods to that audience if he is elected. To be fair to him he like Blair has not promised anything solid at all. A temporary price freeze in power won't achieve any long term change in the political reality of government. Like you I think we need to continue the anti- cuts work but not put it in the context of anything we could expect from Miliband. If Miliband thinks that he can regain the lost 'Labour Core Vote' by his transparent tactic then he is wrong.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2013)

treelover said:


> Looks like the anti-DM protest has legs, will it be the U.K's Axel Springer moment?, as J Ed says there is hardly any mention of the demonisation of claimants, its going to be about asylum seekers, etc and other liberal causes and John Rees's pet issues. If there is trouble it could backfire, just when the paper is on the backfoot.



It won't be anything like a "Springer moment", because as politically-crap and reactionary as the _Mail_ publications undoubtedly are, they're nowhere near the open hard-rightism that Springer's papers espoused (and continue to espouse amid their conservatism).  Bear in mind that Springer's papers didn't only stir the pot about immigrants, etc, they actually promoted a narrowing of German political life to minimise (some would claim to pretty much eliminate) left influence on politics.


----------



## youngian (Oct 3, 2013)

> *Brian Whelan* ‏@*brianwhelanhack*2h
> Weird to see the left bigging up their 'British war veteran', can they not defend Miliband as Marxist academic opposed to Stalinism?



Such a pity we can't all live up to Brian Whelan's right on credentials. The more invitations sent out to kick Paul Dacre while he's down the better. Christ even Nick 'no balls' Clegg is having a go.


----------



## co-op (Oct 3, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The _Daily Mail_ hasn't got it wrong, Paul Dacunt has, and given that Rothermere just signed him up for another year, the _Mail_ newspapers are stuck with Dacunt.  Rothermere is going to be very busy calculating whether it's better to keep Dacunt, neutered or not, or bin him, and the solution may fall on the "bin him" side, if Rothermere thinks the Miliband story will keep on burning much longer.



The Daily Mail is Paul Dacre and Paul Dacre is the Daily Mail. It's been that way for years. He got it wrong, they got it wrong. Giving him a contract extension is also getting it wrong. They have screwed it right up.


----------



## happie chappie (Oct 3, 2013)

I thought I'd drop Paul Dacre a line at paul.dacre@dailymail.co.uk:

"Dear Mr Dacre

"I have read your paper’s various articles about Ralph and Ed Miliband.

"I understand from Private Eye that you are partial to a bit of swearing.

"You are fucking cunt.

"I do hope this clarifies matters".


I'll let you know if I get a reply.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 3, 2013)

Wilf said:


> "Red Ed's Dead Dad Reaches Out From Beyond the Grave to Freeze Your Gas Bill"



  Post of the thread - get it tweeted before someone else does!


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Post of the thread - get it tweeted before someone else does!


"The Public Utility Poltergeist"





Okay, I'll leave it now.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

Miliband used to call his lectures at LSE _Morning Thunder with Ralph Miliband, _which his students rather obviously changed to _Morning Thunder with Ralph Moribund._


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2013)

So he wasn't really that dangerous ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Miliband used to call his lectures at LSE _Morning Thunder with Ralph Miliband, _which his students rather obviously changed to _Morning Thunder with Ralph Moribund._



Economics students sure are a wacky bunch.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

People were wondering yesterday if Littlejohn was going to stick his oar in next. Well, he was actually first out of the blocks, this is from two weeks ago:

Back to the future with Marxist Miliband



> Miliband’s late father was one of Britain’s most prominent Marxist ‘intellectuals’. In other words, he was spectacularly wrong on every single major issue.
> 
> My old man’s a Marxist,
> He wears a Marxist’s hat,
> ...



Prior to this he'd been boasting that he had never even heard of Ralph Miliband. Incidentally, here he is also pretending to applaud left-wingers who signed up to the various forces in WW2, in order to allow him to attack michael foot for not doing so. He's rather quiet right now over that aspect of both miliband's doing what he lauded and his employers doing what he attacked - staying at home writing showbiz gossip - not as far i know, a restricted occupation.

Such consistency of theme and content over many weeks and many writers means they had placed a lot of eggs in this basket and didn't appear to even contemplate the possibility of retreat. Laziness and arrogance has brought many people crashing down to earth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Economics students sure are a wacky bunch.


you seem to be missing an n


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Economics students sure are a wacky bunch.


Maybe, but these were politics students.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> So he wasn't really that dangerous ?


I haven't read a word of his in 20 years but, _superficially_ at least he became a glorified Bennite by the mid 80s.  Obviously not as daft/crass as Benn, but he at least got to point where he was talking about socialist strategy in terms of a combined left Labour victory, pushed on/defended by extraparliamentray struggles.  That's a bit vague and might be unfair on my part, I can't even remember which of his works that was. He was defending the Labour left at the time from some of the Marxism Today lot, but certainly saw some mileage in, ironically, parliamentary socialism.

edit: this touches on it:
http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/08/labour-party-miliband-2


----------



## stavros (Oct 3, 2013)

co-op said:


> The Daily Mail is Paul Dacre and Paul Dacre is the Daily Mail. It's been that way for years. He got it wrong, they got it wrong. Giving him a contract extension is also getting it wrong. They have screwed it right up.



According to Private Eye over the last year or so, there's much in-fighting between Dacre and Geordie Greig, editor of the Sunday title who has the ear of the owner's wife. Hopefully, it'll be a fight to their mutual deaths and will cause a highly expensive divorce between the Harmsworths, tax-dodging cunts that they are.


----------



## RedDragon (Oct 3, 2013)




----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2013)

I reckon Dacre looks a bit like Remmick in Star Trek TNG when he became a host for alien symbionts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 3, 2013)

Ed can always bring a complaint against the Wail to the Press Complaints Commission,who's chairman is .......Paul Dacre


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

really? i never knew that.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> really? i never knew that.


He's not.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Miliband used to call his lectures at LSE _Morning Thunder with Ralph Miliband, _which his students rather obviously changed to _Morning Thunder with Ralph Moribund._




Morning thunder? thats generally my bathroom at around 7 30 am


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> To be fair to him he like Blair has not promised anything solid at all. -


He's promised not to undo any coalition cuts/policies (apart from Bedroom Tax tbf)


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> He's promised not to undo any coalition cuts/policies (apart from Bedroom Tax tbf)




The man has refused to do anything but condemn every fucking strike thats happed under the coalitions loving hand, and had the gall to turn up and speak at the miners gala.

He wants both to have his cake and eat it.

earlier this year when discussing politics with my nan (always a fucking joy) she said he was a 'dangerous jew boy' then remembering herself said 'but not like your rachael'

for the love of christ. So much to get the man on and my nan and the mail choose his non existent red credentials and his jewishness. I despair.


----------



## killer b (Oct 3, 2013)

your nan & frogz's nan should hang out.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 3, 2013)




----------



## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

killer b said:


> your nan & frogz's nan should hang out.



I know right, I reckon they'd get on like a house on fire. They'd have so much to bitch about, jews, muslims, ill people, fat people  And how Nigel Farage "coped so well with his accident in the helicopter" (my nan actually said this)


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

if it'd been a helicopter that got stacked he'd never have made it out alive. Those things must really annoy the lord cos people hardly ever walk away from crashed ones.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> And how Nigel Farage "coped so well with his accident in the helicopter" (my nan actually said this)


 Excellent.   No way our Belgian commie boffin could cope with _that_. In the face of 28 billion Romanians arriving next week we need a few chaps unfazed by microlight carnage.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, i think you can see where some of my "issues" come from. she proper hates muslims tho, proper proper hates them.


 
She doesn't live in Brum does she? Sounds very familiar all this.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 3, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I've got no time for Milipede the younger but having your dad slagged off in a rag like the Mail must be fairly galling.
> 
> whats behind it all? is it cos he made noises about controls for energy prices? fucking hell, it'll be FULL COMMUNISM under Red Ed obviously


Actually I'd be delighted, as would many people I know.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2013)

Posters saying the DM protest will be a damp squib, I'm not so sure, so many people are offended by it and of course Ralph-Gate has had massive coverage.

btw, some posters on the FB site are surmising it was a deliberate action to leave unemployed/disabled claimants off the blurb, as not to implicate the LP.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2013)

just watching a Quentin Letts from the mail try to defend the tactic and headline on newsnight


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 3, 2013)

Ax^ said:


> just watching a Quentin Letts from the mail try to defend the tactic and headline
> 
> ffs
> 
> ...








Slimey toad is smugness personified


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2013)

aye sorta edited my original post as he just got his ass handed to him


----------



## Manter (Oct 3, 2013)

They aren't doing themselves any favours over at the Daily Bile are they? They could have made this all go away 4 days ago if they'd just said oops sorry - instead, they keep digging.

I'd love this to be the end of Dacre but suspect that may be optimistic


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

caleb said:


> whelan quote




yeah its remarkable to see people pointing out his part in the defeat of the nazis, what hypocrites everyone is.


----------



## white rabbit (Oct 3, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> if it'd been a helicopter that got stacked he'd never have made it out alive. Those things must really annoy the lord cos people hardly ever walk away from crashed ones.


They should install ejector seats.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Oct 3, 2013)

Yeah watching Letts trying to defend it is fucking funny . I loved it when the entire audience laughed at him.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> They should install ejector seats.




the ideal ejector seat in a helicopter would be one that blows you out of the vehicle SIDEWAYS


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 3, 2013)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah watching Letts trying to defend it is fucking funny . I loved it when the entire audience laughed at him.


 Nice to see the slimey sycophantic toad get his flabby arse handed to him on a plate


----------



## teqniq (Oct 4, 2013)

http://toys.usvsth3m.com/are-you-hated-by-the-daily-mail/


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 4, 2013)

K'POW! Share this far and share it wide!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-time-daily-mail_n_4039900.html?utm_hp_ref=tw


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 4, 2013)

Pure Youtube version - just copy and paste!

 RT - @mehdirhasan slays The Daily Mail on #bbcqt


----------



## treelover (Oct 4, 2013)

I was surprised at how much support he got, but yet again in his list of victims, no mention of claimants, its not right


----------



## xslavearcx (Oct 4, 2013)

shit forgot question time was on tonight. does it get repeated at all?


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 4, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> shit forgot question time was on tonight. does it get repeated at all?


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03c6zxq/Question_Time_03_10_2013/


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 4, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> Ed can always bring a complaint against the Wail to the Press Complaints Commission,who's chairman is .......Paul Dacre



Not unless he has an alternate persona as Lord Hunt.  He is chairman of the Editor's Code of Practice Committee though.

While checking this, I did find this curious statement from Hunt.



> I must first declare an interest, *as Chairman and sole owner of the Press Complaints Commission*,



Erm, he owns the PCC?


----------



## Sue (Oct 4, 2013)

Mail on the attack over anti-Semitism claims on R4 just now. Jewish Business Editor says they're owed an apology. Poor DM.


----------



## killer b (Oct 4, 2013)

who should apologise? the internet?


----------



## Sue (Oct 4, 2013)

EVERYONE. Poor DM.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 4, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> shit forgot question time was on tonight. does it get repeated at all?



Friday morning 10 am BBC2.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2013)

We have let the Mail down, we've let the press down and we have let ourselves down

hang heads time


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2013)

Sue said:


> Mail on the attack over anti-Semitism claims on R4 just now. Jewish Business Editor says they're owed an apology. Poor DM.



Hmmm...that was an interesting interview, wasn't it?

Alex Brummer let slip that Dacre had told, (then corrected to 'asked') him specifically, as a Jew, to go into this R4 'Today' interview to "_refute the specific canard, statted on Twitter, that the Miliband hounding was anti-semitic"_. Brummer then went on to justify the Mail's pro-jewish position on the basis that "_the paper is full of Jewish reporters" _and the paper's "_pro-Israeli" _editiorial position.  In claiming that the DM was "_due an apology" _Brummer went on to state that papers, like the Guardian, that attacked Israeli policy were the real anti-semities.

The fuckers are rattled.


----------



## Nylock (Oct 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> We have let the Mail down, we've let the press down and we have let ourselves down
> 
> hang heads time


....But more importantly, we have let the mail down....


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2013)

being pro-Israel is of course the greatest defense against racism. Even Tommy Robinson knows that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> The man has refused to do anything but condemn every fucking strike thats happed under the coalitions loving hand, and had the gall to turn up and speak at the miners gala.
> 
> He wants both to have his cake and eat it.
> 
> earlier this year when discussing politics with my nan (always a fucking joy) she said he was a 'dangerous jew boy' then remembering herself said 'but not like your rachael'



Doesn't that mean she thinks froggie is a dangerous jew-boy? 

I've always had my suspicions, like...



> for the love of christ. So much to get the man on and my nan and the mail choose his non existent red credentials and his jewishness. I despair.



People almost always go for the easiest and most obvious markers of otherness though, don't they?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> your nan & frogz's nan should hang out.



Fucking hell, no! 

It'd be the start of the 4th Reich!!!


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Doesn't that mean she thinks froggie is a dangerous jew-boy?
> 
> I've always had my suspicions, like...
> 
> ...




they do, but I thought better of my nan. Mind you she is the woman who will stop mid flow from a five minute rant about proper hollyhock management to say something horrible about people.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fucking hell, no!
> 
> It'd be the start of the 4th Reich!!!



thing is she's actually all right, very decent in some ways until she starts coming out with that strange shit


----------



## Belushi (Oct 4, 2013)

It's not a real Nan unless she's at least mildly racist.

My friends in Lodz have an incredibly racist Nan, but she's outraged when they accuse her of being an anti-semite as this can't possibly be true because when the Nazi's occupied her village she didn't inform on the local Jewish family hiding out in a barn.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

i hope if i ever have grandchildren that i'm not like that, becoming a grandmother seems to activate a racism switch or something. to be fair she's done incredibly well, she's still driving at the age of almost 90 despite losing an eye in an accident a long time ago  she's a very strong woman, and doesn't tolerate weakness in anyone, i think sheer stubbornness has kept her going all that time. Ive never seen her cry or anything.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

i hope im doing all the things she does at her age. She goes to the local U3A and has arguments with them for being too left wing  hates the government though and she's been known to come out with some pretty socialist stuff herself lol


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2013)

Belushi said:


> It's not a real Nan unless she's at least mildly racist.
> 
> My friends in Lodz have an incredibly racist Nan, but she's outraged when they accuse her of being an anti-semite as this can't possible be true because when the Nazi's occupied her village she didn't inform on the local Jewish family hiding out in a barn.



its so true. My nan loves the Mail and Mad Mel but when you point out the inherent racist shit she points out that she's got a scar on her face from a bombing run by the bosche and raised kids who played in bomb craters while she made rations go far etc etc


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> its so true. My nan loves the Mail and Mad Mel but when you point out the inherent racist shit she points out that she's got a scar on her face from a bombing run by the bosche and raised kids who played in bomb craters while she made rations go far etc etc



my nan will happily admit she's racist and doesn't like muslims


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i hope if i ever have grandchildren that i'm not like that, becoming a grandmother seems to activate a racism switch or something. to be fair she's done incredibly well, she's still driving at the age of almost 90 despite losing an eye in an accident a long time ago  she's a very strong woman, and doesn't tolerate weakness in anyone, i think sheer stubbornness has kept her going all that time. Ive never seen her cry or anything.




I can remember the first time I ever heard my nan swear. I'd bought a nicked chicken chaser moped and got nicked riding it. Her words were 'you need to grow up you little shit'

I was shaken to the core


----------



## Favelado (Oct 4, 2013)

My grandma can happily multi-task reading the Daily Mail, tell me how much she loves my mixed-race brother and what
a lovely lad he is (he's ever so clean - he's SPOTLESSLY turned out) and say that Britain is full of wogs and immigrants, all at the same time.

No need for a coherent position if you're a gran. Just say what you feel and don't worry about the contradictions.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I can remember the first time I ever heard my nan swear. I'd bought a nicked chicken chaser moped and got nicked riding it. Her words were 'you need to grow up you little shit'
> 
> I was shaken to the core



you haven't read the "curious pleasures" have you?


----------



## co-op (Oct 4, 2013)

Belushi said:


> she's outraged when they accuse her of being an anti-semite as this can't possible be true because when the Nazi's occupied her village she didn't inform on the local Jewish family hiding out in a barn.



Bet she did, the fibber.

[/generalisations about Poles]


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 4, 2013)

The truly sad fact is that the Sun and the Star are pretty much known for being nothing more than rags. 
They do not portray themselves as a serious truth printing, fact full newspapers that both the Mail and Express have mislead their leadership into believing.
I cannot believe how many people from a working class heritage continue to buy these shameful class led and racist publications.
Those aspiring to appear middle class are almost compelled to buy and support these peddlers of deceit.

When I am Commissar in charge of adult re education all former readers of such as above will spend their time clearing litter or looking after old folk to earn their keep, see how they like it.


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 4, 2013)

Not my gran as such, but my mum's first mother-in-law was a bona fide Nazi. She grew up near a concentration camp and after liberation she and the rest of her village were bussed over to bury the dead as punishment for turning a blind eye.

Apparently made amazing roast potatoes though


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2013)

The Mail's tawdry defence of the original article that " the paper's article about Ralph Miliband, saying it was an "attempt to understand the roots" of his son's politics and what Ed would have heard around the breakfast table..." does appear to invite comparisons with what influence Cameron's late father may have had upon him.

The artcile could focus upon how the young Cameron might have had to listen to his father's tales of the family's proud history of profiterring from the sale/brokerage of war bonds, gambling, establishing and profiting from tax-dodging offshore funds, (including the £25m Panamanian fund created whilst Dave was still a callow youth at Eton), creating companies exclusively designed to provide tax-dodging services for the wealthy in tax-havens including Jersey and Switzerland, avoiding inheritance tax and financial secrecy in general.

Some "roots" eh? Might help us "understand the roots of his politics"? I confidently expect a Daily Mail article on Dave's dead Dad's malevolent influence in the very near future...


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 4, 2013)

The lyrics of this song should be played continuously to readers of the Mail and Express.
The anthem that we should have.


----------



## SikhWarrioR (Oct 4, 2013)

brogdale said:


> The Mail's tawdry defence of the original article that " the paper's article about Ralph Miliband, saying it was an "attempt to understand the roots" of his son's politics and what Ed would have heard around the breakfast table..." does appear to invite comparisons with what influence Cameron's late father may have had upon him.
> 
> The artcile could focus upon how the young Cameron might have had to listen to his father's tales of the family's proud history of profiterring from the sale/brokerage of war bonds, gambling, establishing and profiting from tax-dodging offshore funds, (including the £25m Panamanian fund created whilst Dave was still a callow youth at Eton), creating companies exclusively designed to provide tax-dodging services for the wealthy in tax-havens including Jersey and Switzerland, avoiding inheritance tax and financial secrecy in general.
> 
> Some "roots" eh? Might help us "understand the roots of his politics"? I confidently expect a Daily Mail article on Dave's dead Dad's malevolent influence in the very near future...




I think you will find there is more chance of me getting the pope's job than there is of the daily heil producing an article on cameron's father's dodgy dealings PS the "Sikh" part of my name might give you an idea as to my chances on the pope's job


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 4, 2013)

''Inbred, chinless, pony fuckers.''


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2013)

SikhWarrioR said:


> I think you will find there is more chance of me getting the pope's job than there is of the daily heil producing an article on cameron's father's dodgy dealings PS the "Sikh" part of my name might give you an idea as to my chances on the pope's job



Ok, so i forgot to use the ......but.......when the DM was still after Cam they did publish this (apologies for linking to the rag)

Also the Mail ought to be putting out there that Dave's dead Dad did work for (Rothschild) JOOOOOs!

Free-speech, innit?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2013)

co-op said:


> Bet she did, the fibber.
> 
> [/generalisations about Poles]



You call them Poles, I call them land thieves.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 4, 2013)

Right dogs breakfast of a piece here in the mail - apologising/defending themselves/pointedly noting the mail and mail on sunday are different papers etc:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...orry-Ed-Miliband-terrible-lapse-judgment.html


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 4, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Right dogs breakfast of a piece here in the mail - apologising/defending themselves/pointedly noting the mail and mail on sunday are different papers etc:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...orry-Ed-Miliband-terrible-lapse-judgment.html



Do you not think it'd make sense to cut and paste the relevant content, rather than just put up a link to the Daily Mail's website?  Considering that they derive income from click throughs, you're actually earning them money there.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 4, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Do you not think it'd make sense to cut and paste the relevant content, rather than just put up a link to the Daily Mail's website?  Considering that they derive income from click throughs, you're actually earning them money there.


Really, didn't know that, genuinely (from advertisers?)?  Ok, there you go:


> The Mail on Sunday apologised ‘unreservedly’ to Ed Miliband yesterday after one of its reporters turned up uninvited at a memorial service to his late uncle.
> The Labour leader, who was giving a speech at the service, said he was ‘appalled and shocked’ by the intrusion.
> Geordie Greig, the editor of the Mail on Sunday, issued an apology for what he called the newspaper’s ‘terrible lapse of judgment’.
> And last night Lord Rothermere, the chairman of Daily Mail and General Trust, which owns the Mail and the Mail on Sunday, also apologised in a personal letter to Mr Miliband.
> ...


[awaits charge of 'cut and paste odyssey']

As well as reflecting the mess they've got themselves into, that really is a _terrible_ article.  Running the 2 stories into each other, no clear narrative, almost in note form. 'Quick, quick, write something! Don't panic!'


----------



## gosub (Oct 4, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Do you not think it'd make sense to cut and paste the relevant content, rather than just put up a link to the Daily Mail's website?  Considering that they derive income from click throughs, you're actually earning them money there.




does the money still end up in Bermuda if you use Adblocker?


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 4, 2013)

Favelado said:


> My grandma can happily multi-task reading the Daily Mail, tell me how much she loves my mixed-race brother and what
> a lovely lad he is (he's ever so clean - he's SPOTLESSLY turned out) and say that Britain is full of wogs and immigrants, all at the same time.
> 
> No need for a coherent position if you're a gran. Just say what you feel and don't worry about the contradictions.



i wish these assorted grans would start posting here . Id be the voice of reason .


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> the voice of reason


one of the best bits of any issue of red action


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2013)

Now compulsive liar "Michael Green" pops up to squeal about how nasty the Guardian were to say that Dave's dead dad was a tax-dodger.



> He cited an investigation in The Guardian in April of last year claiming that David Cameron's father, Ian Cameron, built up legal offshore investment funds in Panama and Geneva. I'm disappointed we didn't hear the same outrage when the Guardian attacked David Cameron's father when he passed away after a completely _* spurious*_ piece





Spurious; that'll be true, then?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2013)

My Irish Catholic Nan was quite everything-ist in until where she lived (Euston) gradually became more multicultural and she could no longer reconcile her fears with the reality of the "nice Asian family in the flat next door", the "nice gay lads running the local pub" and the "nice Muslim woman who is also a dinner lady at the school".  By the time of her unexpected death at the age of 77 (undiagnosed kidney stones that poisoned her blood -- watch out for that, people), she was as small-l liberal as they come.

Unrelated and I've posted it before, but I never miss the chance: she was also the force of nature that once exclaimed, "You never see any policemen any more because they're all off having sex in vans."


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

kabbes said:


> My Irish Catholic Nan was quite everything-ist in until where she lived (Euston) gradually became more multicultural and she could no longer reconcile her fears with the reality of the "nice Asian family in the flat next door", the "nice gay lads running the local pub" and the "nice Muslim woman who is also a dinner lady at the school".  By the time of her unexpected death at the age of 77 (undiagnosed kidney stones that poisoned her blood -- watch out for that, people), she was as small-l liberal as they come.
> 
> Unrelated and I've posted it before, but I never miss the chance: she was also the force of nature that once exclaimed, "You never see any policemen any more because they're all off having sex in vans."


The last line is certainly true in West Yorkshire - see the many cases publicised by uPSd. Seems to be one every week.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2013)

So she knew what was what then, my Nan, it would seem.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 4, 2013)




----------



## Wilf (Oct 4, 2013)

kabbes said:


> "You never see any policemen any more because they're all off having sex in vans."


 As Butchers said, we've got life imitating nan-art on that one, but still a classic line. 

I can't offer up much nan prejudice, 'cept a good dose of anti-catholicism, which was put to the test when her son married one.  Mind, me Dad's picked up the baton. Wheeled him round the park the other week when it was boiling hot and he was wondering about some kids being in very hot clothes.  When the youth leader, wearing a yarmulke, came and sat on the bench with us, the penny dropped.  Cue loud stage whisper, 'ah, they're JEWS!'.


----------



## xslavearcx (Oct 4, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03c6zxq/Question_Time_03_10_2013/



thanks


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

Stalin fought hitler. Wonder what the mail makes of that.

That idiot paul staines/guido fawkes (or immigrant criminal and drug-user as the mail would call him) is claiming that this was a miliband set-up. Really. Please tories, listen to these people trying to make this stuff the basis of your election strategy.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Stalin fought hitler. Wonder what the mail makes of that.
> 
> That idiot paul staines/guido fawkes (or immigrant criminal and drug-user as the mail would call him) is claiming that this was a miliband set-up. Really. Please tories, listen to these people trying to make this stuff the basis of your election strategy.


 The comments on that 'piece' score high for stupidity, but way higher for banality.  It's as if the Daily Mail had a Provisional wing.  The usernames say it all:

Dumbed-down Britain gets on my tits says:
The British Publics Values says:
Axe The Telly Tax & Religion & Kill All Ecoloons says:​


----------



## teqniq (Oct 4, 2013)

Scary usernames


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

i think


Wilf said:


> As Butchers said, we've got life imitating nan-art on that one, but still a classic line.
> 
> I can't offer up much nan prejudice, 'cept a good dose of anti-catholicism, which was put to the test when her son married one.  Mind, me Dad's picked up the baton. Wheeled him round the park the other week when it was boiling hot and he was wondering about some kids being in very hot clothes.  When the youth leader, wearing a yarmulke, came and sat on the bench with us, the penny dropped.  Cue loud stage whisper, 'ah, they're JEWS!'.



carrying the torch of nan-prejudidice


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That idiot paul staines/guido fawkes (or immigrant criminal and drug-user as the mail would call him)



link?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> link?


They didn't call him that,but it's interesting who they choose not to.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They didn't call him that,but it's interesting who they choose not to.



no i meant a link to him being a criminal and drug-user


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> no i meant a link to him being a criminal and drug-user


All here:



> His attitude to the law is anarchic, especially the law that prohibits drink-driving. The most recent of his four alcohol-related convictions, in April 2008, resulted in a three-year driving ban and an 18-month supervision order. Writing for the Libertarian Alliance 20 years ago, he was lyrical in praise of his friend Tony Colston-Hayter, who outwitted the police by organising illegal but highly profitable acid house parties. He also fulsomely encouraged readers to experience the "staggeringly enjoyable, mind-warping" effects of illegal drugs, and declared that some of the drug dealers he knew were "honest, peace-loving, fair-minded people who just happen to be in a business of which the majority of people are said to disapprove".


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 4, 2013)

A couple of years ago there was a photo of him circulating the internet in which he was meeting and greeting a UNITA terrorist too. I just had a google for it and it seems to have mysteriously vanished from the web


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2013)

The stuff where he proposes joint fed of tory students action with the BNP hasn't.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

> He also fulsomely encouraged readers to experience the "staggeringly enjoyable, mind-warping" effects of illegal drugs, and declared that some of the drug dealers he knew were "honest, peace-loving, fair-minded people who just happen to be in a business of which the majority of people are said to disapprove".


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2013)

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...aimed-father-ralph-hated-britain-8858402.html


 

Apparently Mehdi Hasan applied for a columnists job on the Mail and "and that he admired Mr Dacre’s “relentless focus on the need for integrity and morality in public life.”

Dacre leaked the letter, but wtf, why does the left have so many of these figures with feet of clay?

oh, and its 'labour activists who will picket the mail tomorrow, where do they get that from?


----------



## Nylock (Oct 5, 2013)

....It is ofc feasible the hassan wrote a bullshitting grovelly letter in order to try and get a job... Then again, why would the man who described the newspaper as 'poison' want a job there anyway?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

killer b said:


> you're kidding? this is a fucking gift to labour. a day of the tory conference effectively wiped out, two if it carries on tomorrow. they can't believe their luck.



In the short term but the energy policies have far greater appeal than kicking the shit out of the DM. People want cheaper bills more than they want Dacre to resign.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

treelover said:


> Apparently Mehdi Hasan applied for a columnists job on the Mail and "and that he admired Mr Dacre’s “relentless focus on the need for integrity and morality in public life.”
> 
> Dacre leaked the letter, but wtf, why does the left have so many of these figures with feet of clay?
> 
> oh, and its 'labour activists who will picket the mail tomorrow, where do they get that from?



Louise Mensch is giving him shit on this on twitter.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 5, 2013)

Leaking someone's application letter idea even lower than smearing someone's dead dad.


----------



## where to (Oct 5, 2013)

Fuck Mehdi Hassan and fuck defending him. What a complete tit.


----------



## Balbi (Oct 5, 2013)

Pick and choose. Hasan's a social conservative, and his defence is yeah, they're poison, but it's not hypocritical to say that and apply for a job there. If I had said I would never write for the Mail, then I would be a hypocrite


----------



## where to (Oct 5, 2013)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Pick and choose. Hasan's a social conservative, and his defence is yeah, they're poison, but it's not hypocritical to say that and apply for a job there. If I had said I would never write for the Mail, then I would be a hypocrite



That defence is a load of shit. You can't say what he said and also write that letter. You just can't.

The guy has been exposed as a gob for hire. He can get to fuck.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> In the short term but the energy policies have far greater appeal than kicking the shit out of the DM. People want cheaper bills more than they want Dacre to resign.


And labour are going to hide away that policy for the next two years because of this are they? Can you really not recognise an opportunity when it's staring you in the face? Don't they teach political strategy and tactics at school anymore?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

where to said:


> That defence is a load of shit. You can't say what he said and also write that letter. You just can't.
> 
> The guy has been exposed as a gob for hire. He can get to fuck.


This is precisely why we needed that Laurie peony thread and the latter one. False friends can do serious damage.


----------



## chilango (Oct 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Don't they teach political strategy and tactics at school anymore?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 5, 2013)

Courtesy of 'Incubus', (via Bone)...



> .....in the US, journos are being called ‘_*presstitutes*_’- while that does a dis-service to those who earn a living ‘on the game’, one is certainly more honest and socially beneficial than the other…


----------



## where to (Oct 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> And labour are going to hide away that policy for the next two years because of this are they? Can you really not recognise an opportunity when it's staring you in the face? Don't they teach political strategy and tactics at school anymore?



Don't you think they are getting close to overplaying their hand here though? not sure they can get lasting result from this, don't see DM readership falling, or them putting gloves on either. And forcing Dacre out isn't going to happen by looks of it. The narrative thing has been done now, as has wiping Cam off news during conference. Is there anything left they can get from this/


----------



## CNT36 (Oct 5, 2013)

treelover said:


> btw, why do you continually troll my threads?


Perhaps you should remember this post when wondering about the low post count on threads you are precious about.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

where to said:


> Don't you think they are getting close to overplaying their hand here though? not sure they can get lasting result from this, don't see DM readership falling, or them putting gloves on either. And forcing Dacre out isn't going to happen by looks of it. The narrative thing has been done now, as has wiping Cam off news during conference. Is there anything left they can get from this/


I don't think they are no. I think this is a short term issue in terms of politically managing it but with long term potentially implications for labour: 1) positioning Miliband as the decent leader 2) Positioning him as the defender of decent families over cost of living issues who is 3) under attack by the powerful in an underhand way 4) associating the powerful with the tories 5) driving a wedge between the tories and the mail and 6) heightening internal far-right arguments about what electoral strategy to adopt (note the differences between Hesseltine's comments and Camerons, note also the former and Ken Clarkes attempts to undermine and damage the UKIP friendly message of the tory conference earlier this week). It's all win right now. I think that you are looking at the wrong targets above - at least in terms of labours strategy. The things you identify are more to do with these demo or whatever this other thing is.


----------



## killer b (Oct 5, 2013)

yep, it's surely more about using the current furore to make political capital - showing labour and miliband in a strong position against something all right-thinking people are against, and the tories on the side of bad.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

where to said:


> Don't you think they are getting close to overplaying their hand here though? not sure they can get lasting result from this, don't see DM readership falling, or them putting gloves on either. And forcing Dacre out isn't going to happen by looks of it. The narrative thing has been done now, as has wiping Cam off news during conference. Is there anything left they can get from this/



Yup they're risking a backlash with all the proxies fighting this one. The predictable defence of press freedom is now rolling out too. It's a short term win not a strategic victory, they need to move on with some eye catching policy or campaign otherwise it'll be a repeat of the Syria vote where Ed brilliantly wrongfooted Cameron but didn't change gear, overplayed his hand allowing Cameron to switch and manage his crisis very well.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> And labour are going to hide away that policy for the next two years because of this are they? Can you really not recognise an opportunity when it's staring you in the face? Don't they teach political strategy and tactics at school anymore?



You're a moron.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Leaking someone's application letter idea even lower than smearing someone's dead dad.



Think this is a real issue here, can't imagine many journos liking this idea (and probably having a good look at their old emails!)...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

It appears that they have dropped political strategy and tactics from the syllabus then. Maybe replaced it with _Samsung studies _or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

treelover said:


> Apparently Mehdi Hasan applied for a columnists job on the Mail and "and that he admired Mr Dacre’s “relentless focus on the need for integrity and morality in public life.”
> 
> Dacre leaked the letter, but wtf, why does the left have so many of these figures with feet of clay?



1) It's eminently arguable that Hasan isn't "on the left", but is, like many of his compatriots at the _new Statesman_, a centrist liberal.
2) *Everyone* has feet of clay.  The secret is to expose them.



> oh, and its 'labour activists who will picket the mail tomorrow, where do they get that from?



Out of their arses.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Nylock said:


> ....It is ofc feasible the hassan wrote a bullshitting grovelly letter in order to try and get a job... Then again, why would the man who described the newspaper as 'poison' want a job there anyway?



A lot of journos, from commited rightists, to commited leftists, will write letters like that at some time during their career.  It's a way of signalling the ability to fit in with a newspaper's "house style" while bringing a "unique" perspective, as much as anything else.  That Dacunt thinks it's meaningful to leak this signals a lot more about Dacunt's state of mind than it does about Hasan's hypocrisy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Louise Mensch is giving him shit on this on twitter.



Getting shit from Mensch for whatever reason is pretty much a badge of honour.  The woman is an arrant fuckwit.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Getting shit from Mensch for whatever reason is pretty much a badge of honour.  The woman is an arrant fuckwit.



She is amusing, find it hard to believe anyone takes her seriously given how shrill she is.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 5, 2013)

where to said:


> That defence is a load of shit. You can't say what he said and also write that letter. You just can't.
> 
> The guy has been exposed as a gob for hire. He can get to fuck.


 I'm with you 100% on Hasan, he's both stupid and hypocritical. Same time there's a bit of mileage in this with regard to leaking his letter. Must go against any kind of Personnel principles to leak a letter of application.  The Metro - part of Assoc Newspapers - looks to have Investors in People status (can't find anything on the DM itself having it).
http://www.investorsinpeople.co.uk/MediaResearch/CaseStudy/Pages/CaseStudyDetails.aspx?CSID=50
Not _much_ mileage in it, but Hasan could probably make a _bit_ of trouble for them over this.  Bit of a sideshow but most of all it shows the gloves are off.  Miliband and the Shadow Cabinet will be braced for whatever the Mail on Sunday has on them tomorrow.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 5, 2013)

The NUJ and the ICO should really have something to say about the Hasan letter leak. The Mail hasn't taken any measures to distance itself, which may turn out to have been a bad move.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> A lot of journos, from commited rightists, to commited leftists, will write letters like that at some time during their career.  It's a way of signalling the ability to fit in with a newspaper's "house style" while bringing a "unique" perspective, as much as anything else.  That Dacunt thinks it's meaningful to leak this signals a lot more about Dacunt's state of mind than it does about Hasan's hypocrisy.



Yup. Also serves a a warning to future journos looking to sell in a story too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

where to said:


> That defence is a load of shit. You can't say what he said and also write that letter. You just can't.
> 
> The guy has been exposed as a gob for hire. He can get to fuck.



In other words, the guy has exposed himself as being as venal and as human as a majority of his profession.
Journalists who stick to their ideological guns quasi-religiously are few and far between, and outwith John Pilger and a few others, they're freelancers.
Some journalists write "against" their own political convictions.  It's something journos have always done, and will always do.  For many, it's known as "earning a living".


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 5, 2013)

On my CV it says I have a strong work ethic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> The NUJ and the ICO should really have something to say about the Hasan letter leak. The Mail hasn't taken any measures to distance itself, which may turn out to have been a bad move.



What should they have to say about it?  Beyond reminding the _Mail_ of their obligation to keep personal data secure, that is?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> What should they have to say about it?  Beyond reminding the _Mail_ of their obligation to keep personal data secure, that is?



The NUJ could fund some sort of legal action against the Mail, or industrial action via the local chapel, and the ICO could fine them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> And labour are going to hide away that policy for the next two years because of this are they? Can you really not recognise an opportunity when it's staring you in the face? Don't they teach political strategy and tactics at school anymore?



I've met more than a few mainstream activists who don't even know the difference between strategy and tactics, let alone how to formulate and deploy them. Seems to me to be a consequence of centralisation of power, but then I would think that, wouldn't I?


----------



## Corax (Oct 5, 2013)

The Mail are getting a right battering over this.

Which is good, and deserved.  But it's notable that after all the reprehensible things they've done, the biggest uproar has come because they dissed a politician's dad.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> The NUJ could fund some sort of legal action against the Mail, or industrial action via the local chapel, and the ICO could fine them.



The NUJ, like most other TUs, won't get directly involved, and they won't get directly involved because they don't want to give either the state or the political parties any hostages to fortune to be used against them in the future.
Given the state of anti-TU legislation, while I don't agree with any such putative tactic, I can understand it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Corax said:


> The Mail are getting a right battering over this.
> 
> Which is good, and deserved.  But it's notable that after all the reprehensible things they've done, the biggest uproar has come because they dissed a politician's dad.



Not really, it's because they felt that *regardless of the very easily-accessible public facts*, they could "monster" Miliband Snr, and in doing so, harm Miliband Jr. People are reacting as much against the _Mail's_ perception that they should be allowed to do such a thing, as they are about the particular target.


----------



## Corax (Oct 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not really, it's because they felt that *regardless of the very easily-accessible public facts*, they could "monster" Miliband Snr, and in doing so, harm Miliband Jr. People are reacting as much against the _Mail's_ perception that they should be allowed to do such a thing, as they are about the particular target.


They've done worse before though, to less reaction - no?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

chilango said:


>



Don't laugh! 

I learned the basis of my ideas on political strategy and tactics during school history lessons, from my deep-red history teacher (bless him!).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Corax said:


> They've done worse before though, to less reaction - no?



No.
At least, nowhere near as nakedly, and not in repetition.


----------



## Corax (Oct 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> No.
> At least, nowhere near as nakedly, and not in repetition.


Guess that's subjective.  For me, Stephen Gately is the one that first springs to mind.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You're a moron.



If that's the only reply you have to the points he raises, albeit abrasively, then *you* are blinkered.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I don't think they are no. I think this is a short term issue in terms of politically managing it but with long term potentially implications for labour: 1) positioning Miliband as the decent leader 2) Positioning him as the defender of decent families over cost of living issues who is 3) under attack by the powerful in an underhand way 4) associating the powerful with the tories 5) driving a wedge between the tories and the mail and 6) heightening internal far-right arguments about what electoral strategy to adopt (note the differences between Hesseltine's comments and Camerons, note also the former and Ken Clarkes attempts to undermine and damage the UKIP friendly message of the tory conference earlier this week). It's all win right now. I think that you are looking at the wrong targets above - at least in terms of labours strategy. The things you identify are more to do with these demo or whatever this other thing is.


 I think that's well put, in terms of where Labour probably think this might go, their ideal outcome.  In many ways that would to retread the decency/middle England positioning strategy of Blair in the mid 90s - and ironically, would be about presenting the party as daily mail friendly (which of course is a limit to the strategy - the mail itself will never forgive).  The difficulty with this is that Miliband hasn't got the tools Blair had when it comes to this kind of strategy (or indeed any).  But it is certainly the way Labour will want it to go. They'll be desperate for stories of energy bosses bonuses or tory chiselling/class A consumption to give it momentum.  Ultimately, it's hard to tell whether it will have much effect beyond fucking up the tory conference. Most of all, electorally, Labour need to establish voter confidence in their economic competence - a battle they seem to be losing at the moment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> On my CV it says I have a strong work ethic.



I can see a fraud conviction in your near-future!


----------



## newbie (Oct 5, 2013)

Mr Staines was on the ball "This is about Leveson, the Royal Charter and state regulation of the press."  That's the overriding threat to the DM, commercially and politically.  they've survived and prospered through all sorts of government, all sorts of public moods but cannot contemplate losing their freedom to smear and to hate.

They're looking wounded right now but when the real battle commences they'll be able to throw back the words around which the political establishment has closed ranks  "_I want to know how these practices are allowed to happen."  _Allowed.  State regulation is what bothers them (and me!) and they'll fight as hard and dirty as they can against it.

This started out as a warning shot, carefully timed to make sure Cameron noticed, but it's got out of hand


----------



## Manter (Oct 5, 2013)

Corax said:


> The Mail are getting a right battering over this.
> 
> Which is good, and deserved.  But it's notable that after all the reprehensible things they've done, the biggest uproar has come because they dissed a politician's dad.


Isn't this just a way in? Everyone's been too scared of them to take them on before. But they've left themselves open to attack and everyone is piling in...


----------



## Corax (Oct 5, 2013)

Manter said:


> Isn't this just a way in? Everyone's been too scared of them to take them on before. But they've left themselves open to attack and everyone is piling in...


I think you're right.  And I'm glad.  It just smacks a bit of a classist reaction iykwim - it matters more when it's one of the political/economic elite on the receiving end than when it's a mere pleb.

I know the Milliband's are hardly aristo gentry - his dad sounds an inspiration in many ways - but Ed and David still share those same privileges now.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

newbie said:


> Mr Staines was on the ball "This is about Leveson, the Royal Charter and state regulation of the press."  That's the overriding threat to the DM, commercially and politically.  they've survived and prospered through all sorts of government, all sorts of public moods but cannot contemplate losing their freedom to smear and to hate.
> 
> They're looking wounded right now but when the real battle commences they'll be able to throw back the words around which the political establishment has closed ranks  "_I want to know how these practices are allowed to happen."  _Allowed.  State regulation is what bothers them (and me!) and they'll fight as hard and dirty as they can against it.
> 
> This started out as a warning shot, carefully timed to make sure Cameron noticed, but it's got out of hand


That's really not Staines being on the ball - the daily mail said this was about that themselves - staines said Miliband had provoked this because of Leveson which is chronologically and politically challenged. I think that you're buying into the  mail omnipotence idea there.


----------



## newbie (Oct 5, 2013)

I know they did, that's the point I'm making. Their agenda is clear and has little or nothing to do with shortterm politicking about Labour, UKIP or anything else ephemeral. 

I don't think I'd describe them as omnipotent but they're unignorable in a way that the Sun used to be but isn't now.


I read the piece as Staines discussing why EM reacted  to DM provocation, but that's by the bye.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If that's the only reply you have to the points he raises, albeit abrasively, then *you* are blinkered.



Not at all it's a reply to a moron who likes to follow me round the board with his pathetic comments. I see no value in engaging with an intellectually debased individual like that.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 5, 2013)

newbie said:


> I know they did, that's the point I'm making. Their agenda is clear and has little or nothing to do with shortterm politicking about Labour, UKIP or anything else ephemeral.
> 
> I don't think I'd describe them as omnipotent but they're unignorable in a way that the Sun used to be but isn't now.
> 
> ...



The DM is now as ignorable as the Sun, that's one of the big lessons in this. It'd be unthinkable in the past for a party leader, deputy prime minister and other high profile politicians to attack it like this.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Not at all it's a reply to a moron who likes to follow me round the board with his pathetic comments. I see no value in engaging with an intellectually debased individual like that.


Looking real good right now kid.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2013)

newbie said:


> I know they did, that's the point I'm making. Their agenda is clear and has little or nothing to do with shortterm politicking about Labour, UKIP or anything else ephemeral.
> 
> I don't think I'd describe them as omnipotent but they're unignorable in a way that the Sun used to be but isn't now.
> 
> ...


I think that you're misreading a partial motivation for a whole one. There is a bundle of motivations here and it makes no sense to (correctly) say the mail is acting in what its dominant power-holders see as it's interests then ignore or write off another series of questions or issues in which it has a long term interest. (And these attacks via ralph miliband have been going on from since before leveson anyway).


----------



## andysays (Oct 5, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Leaking someone's application letter idea even lower than smearing someone's dead dad.



I'm not sure which is worse, TBH, but I do know that this sort of squabbling over supposed personal insults which various members of the political and media elite are throwing at each other all helps to distract from the far more important fact that all of them are in thrall to the same neo-liberal austerity bullshit.

When the dust finally settles on the "Daily Mail denegrates Ed's dead Dad's red diary" debacle, will any of that have really changed?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 5, 2013)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure which is worse, TBH, but I do know that this sort of squabbling over supposed personal insults which various members of the political and media elite are throwing at each other all helps to distract from the far more important fact that all of them are in thrall to the same neo-liberal austerity bullshit.



Largely, but this incident has provided a window of opportunity to alert people to the disgusting Hitler licking of The Mail, which by their own standards can be assumed to have shaped what they are today.

We may all assume that "everyone" knows that past, we'd be wrong. It's geekery, but now more people know.

If there's one thing worse than uniform neoliberal shite,  that does not have the entire establishment in thrall, it is fascism in it's rawest and most brutal of forms.

It's been a bad week for The Daily Blackshirt, that's a good thing. How much will linger? How much of anything lingers? Anything is better than nothing in the war on The Blackshirt.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 5, 2013)

Perhaps an obvious point, but if Labour manage to cobble together a coherent political message and get any traction on this, it will be in contrast to their failure to achieve that elsewhere.  Not much they can really say about the origins of the economic crisis, the cuts, punishing claimants, privatisation etc.  Be an irony indeed if the mail hand Labour 'decency strategy' on the back of their own indecency.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is precisely why we needed that Laurie peony thread and the latter one. False friends can do serious damage.



Owen's been adamant that today's protest should be peaceful and cheerful, not angry

this is probably not just for the usual bad protesters will make us look bad shit, but because the Daily Mail share a building with The Independent, so he's actually protesting outside a building full of not just his own colleagues but his bosses

(in fact I think Associated Newspapers still have quite a large share holding in Lebedev's other newspaper the Evening Standard)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2013)

I think that's gone now. Not 100% sure though.

Anyway


> In the row between the Mail and Ed Miliband the public come down solidly on the side of Miliband. Even on the principle of writing about and criticising Ralph Miliband’s views and his potential influence on Ed Miliband only 26% of people think that this was acceptable. Asked specifically about the Mail calling Ralph Miliband the “man who hated Britain” just 17% thought the Mail’s language was acceptable, 72% unacceptable. 69% of people think that the Daily Mail should apologise.
> 
> 78% of people think that Ed Miliband was right to complain to the Mail, and a quarter of people say the way he has reacted to the Mail’s attack has made them view Ed Miliband more positively.
> 
> While the Daily Mail’s own readers are more likely than the general public to support the Mail’s actions, overall they still think they were unacceptable. By 50% to 42% Mail readers think it was unacceptable for the paper to write about and criticise Ralph Miliband’s views, and by 60% to 29% they think it was unacceptable to use language like the “man who hated Britain”. 57% of the Mail’s own readers think they should apologise.


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## Fez909 (Oct 6, 2013)

That's pretty damning stuff from their own readership!


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

How did the D/M demo go?


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## brogdale (Oct 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> How did the D/M demo go?



Wasn't there, but (apparently) someone from our favourite 'left of centre' paper was there:-



> Protesters have gathered outside the offices of the Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday to voice their opposition to what they described as "grotesque acts of journalism" by both titles in their ongoing spat with the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.
> 
> Around 200 trade unionists and leftwing campaigners joined Muslim leaders for the demonstration outside the newspapers' London headquarters.
> 
> "The message is clear," said the journalist and campaigner Owen Jones, addressing the crowd. "Enough is enough: stop your campaign of hatred."


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## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2013)

That's ridiculous. A defend Britain demon in effect. I hate Britain.


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## brogdale (Oct 6, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> That's pretty damning stuff from their own readership!



....and yet...most will continue to buy the rag....coz their respectable, innit?


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## brogdale (Oct 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's ridiculous. A defend Britain demon in effect. I hate Britain.



Just repeating the Mail's nonsense notion that hating a land-mass has any meaning whatsoever.


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

> John Rees, *a protester from Hackney*, north London, said the papers' treatment of Miliband had been disgraceful. But he said the protest was also about wider issues.


 
Rees joined the proles at last, not the leader then


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## J Ed (Oct 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> Rees joined the proles at last, not the leader then



Hopefully no one dared to wear an England cap to this protest about the Daily Mail hating Britain lol


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## killer b (Oct 6, 2013)

damp squib then? quelle surprise.


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

owen looks even younger with his crew cut


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

killer b said:


> damp squib then? quelle surprise.


 
Maybe, but its had 450 comments on CIF already


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## killer b (Oct 6, 2013)

echo chamber bollocks.


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## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2013)

What did the peoples assembly say about the cifs comments about the people's assembly demo? And what of left unity and unite? The BBC? THE MSM?


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2013)

Fortunately, a crappy demo won't undermine the general sense of unease with the DM and with an anti-Ed agenda in middle England, nor - however dull-witted the slogans - will it make up for the political agenda being hijacked in Tory conference week.


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What did the peoples assembly say about the cifs comments about the people's assembly demo? And what of left unity and unite? The BBC? THE MSM?


 
fuck all wrong with discussing those orgs, have you seen the SWP thread.


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## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> fuck all wrong with discussing those orgs, have you seen the SWP thread.


You don't discuss them - you post the same thing/whine over and over about them and you get no response. _Because _you post the same thing/whine over and over and don't discuss them.


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

back on ignore then

btw, I imagine the DM will try to identify " the left wing layabouts" who were on the demo, front page splash, I reckon


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You don't discuss them - you post the same thing/whine over and over about them and you get no response. _Because _you post the same thing/whine over and over and don't discuss them.


 

last comment, I can't post long replies, etc, as you well know,


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## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2013)

Jesus christ. And you wonder why people don't bother with you?


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## killer b (Oct 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> back on ignore then
> 
> btw, I imagine the DM will try to identify " the left wing layabouts" who were on the demo, front page splash, I reckon


i imagine they will ignore it completely. why would they want to draw any further attention to this? they just want it to go away.


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## smokedout (Oct 6, 2013)

they ignored the claimant protest outside there a couple of years ago, which wasn't 'cheerful and chirpy' like this one but well rowdy and ended with a mob of people screaming fuck the daily mail over and over again right outside the front door


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## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

Watched paper review, I was completely wrong...


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 7, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Not at all it's a reply to a moron who likes to follow me round the board with his pathetic comments. I see no value in engaging with an intellectually debased individual like that.



And yet a simple 2-minute contextual analysis of your reply to me makes a very different point - that you'll go to some lengths to traduce someone you dislike, purely on the basis that you dislike them (the old "following around the board" accusation doesn't really wash).

And for what? Challenging your mainstream, reformist politics?  You need to be a little more Zen, or at least a little more creative with your accusations.


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## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

_

Hitchens Speaks!_



> 'Like Ralph Miliband - I was a Marxist too': A personal perspective on the Labour leader row by MoS columnist PETER HITCHENS


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## Serotonin (Oct 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> _
> Hitchens Speaks!_



Shockingly ( because fucking hell it's Hitchens) that's the best piece on the issue I've read. Despite the ' those lefties just need to grow up' rhetoric underlying it.


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## Wilf (Oct 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> _Hitchens Speaks!_


What was that?  Using Hitchens to make a de facto apology?   Digs at Hesseltine, banging the drum on press 'freedom', but I really did get a slight sheepish, neo-apology tone in there. Not real of course, but certainly a sense of deploying Hitchens to give it that feel.  Actually, as their most aggressive, but more off piste columnist, that was probably a good strategic move on the mail's part.


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## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Wilf said:


> What was that?  Using Hitchens to make a de facto apology?   Digs at Hesseltine, banging the drum on press 'freedom', but I really did get a slight sheepish, neo-apology tone in there. Not real of course, but certainly a sense of deploying Hitchens to give it that feel.


Different paper, different editor. The editor of the mail thinks the editor of the MoS is after his job and wants to cause trouble for him. I think he does and is. This is part of doing that. That said, hitchens would probably write this whatever. (And it's in the debate section as well)


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## Favelado (Oct 7, 2013)

Serotonin said:


> Shockingly ( because fucking hell it's Hitchens) that's the best piece on the issue I've read. Despite the ' those lefties just need to grow up' rhetoric underlying it.



It's good apart from the sign off. Once we all grow up and have a nervous breakdown in front of a religious painting as Hitchens did, we'll all be better off.


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## Wilf (Oct 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Different paper, different editor. The editor of the mail thinks the editor of the MoS is after his job and wants to cause trouble for him. I think he does and is. This is part of doing that. That said, hitchens would probably write this whatever. (And it's in the debate section as well)


That sounds right, though the focus was more focused on 'pasts' (the Mail piece) than journalists invading memorial services (MoS).  There was certainly a purpose in deploying Hitchen's, and at least one eye on the privy council, but Dacre's strategy in all this looks quite messy.

Edit: oh, ignore the above, I've just seen it says 'MoS Columnist'!  Sorry, with it being today I thought it was in the mail itself.  

Double edit: no less a source than wikipedia describes the mailonline as a joint site for the 2 papers, but doesn't clarify where editorial control sits.  Presumably the site itself will be playing out some of the tensions between the 2 print editors.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> _
> Hitchens Speaks!_


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## nino_savatte (Oct 8, 2013)

youngian said:


> Its not unusual to butter the bread of some useful idiot to shield yourself when the stakes are high (in this case discrediting Ed M's leadership for daring to depart from the neo-liberal consensus with some mild social democracy). And the Mail is happy to trawl in any sewer to tap into latent prejudices of its readers in the bigoted Gin and Jag stockbroker belts and suburbs.
> 
> The thing that most shocked me about Levy's article when first reading it was this sentence-
> 
> ...


Yes, I have to say when I saw that paragraph I found myself scratching my head.


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## stavros (Oct 9, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Dacre's strategy in all this looks quite messy.



The current Eye has a note about the small print of Dacre's contract, stating his salary only in terms of the period until he turns 65, an event which is but 5 weeks tomorrow, and suggesting it might mean him finally stepping down.

Let's not hold our breath though (I've heard it gives you cancer).


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 9, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet a simple 2-minute contextual analysis of your reply to me makes a very different point - that you'll go to some lengths to traduce someone you dislike, purely on the basis that you dislike them (the old "following around the board" accusation doesn't really wash).
> 
> And for what? Challenging your mainstream, reformist politics?  You need to be a little more Zen, or at least a little more creative with your accusations.



The follow round the board is true, only a sad little kiss ass can't see that.


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## Combustible (Oct 9, 2013)

stavros said:


> The current Eye has a note about the small print of Dacre's contract, stating his salary only in terms of the period until he turns 65, an event which is but 5 weeks tomorrow, and suggesting it might mean him finally stepping down.



He has signed another contract for another year at least.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/oct/02/daily-mail-editor-paul-dacre-new-contract


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The follow round the board is true, only a sad little kiss ass can't see that.



And there we go again, the peurile name-calling in lieu of anything meaningful.
Have a word with yourself, there's a good chap.

And by the way, it's spelled "arse" on this side of the Atlantic.


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## stavros (Oct 10, 2013)

Combustible said:


> He has signed another contract for another year at least.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/oct/02/daily-mail-editor-paul-dacre-new-contract



Bugger. He probably wants to see off any threat of Leveson-lite, and also grip Cameron's balls in the run up to the election.


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

> *Why is the left obsessed by the Daily Mail?*
> The Guardian has published an extensive critique of the Daily Mail and its reporting of Labour, press regulation and the Snowden leaks. We invited Mail readers to join in that debate. *Paul Dacre*, editor-in-chief, asked for the opportunity to comment. Here is his contribution
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/12/left-daily-mail-paul-dacre


 
Hard to believe but Dacre has done a piece for the Guardian!

worth its own thread


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

> Let it be said loud and clear that the Mail, unlike News International, did NOT hack people's phones or pay the police for stories. I have sworn that on oath.
> No, our crime is more heinous than that.
> It is that the Mail constantly dares to stand up to the liberal-left consensus that dominates so many areas of British life and instead represents the views of the ordinary people who are our readers and who don't have a voice in today's political landscape and are too often ignored by today's ruling elite.
> The metropolitan classes, of course, despise our readers with their dreams (mostly unfulfilled) of a decent education and health service they can trust, their belief in the family, patriotism, self-reliance, and their over-riding suspicion of the state and the People Who Know Best.
> ...


 
he clearly believes that there is a cultural Marxist hegemony and that his readers suffer from this everyday in their lives.


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

> For the record, the Mail received a mere two letters of complaint before Mr Miliband's intervention and only a few hundred letters and emails since – many in support. *A weekend demonstration against the paper attracted just 110 people. *
> 
> 
> 
> > He must have counted them!, killer b was right on it going to be a damp squib


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## white rabbit (Oct 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> Hard to believe but Dacre has done a piece for the Guardian!
> 
> worth its own thread


They've closed comments until 9am tommoz. Clearly expecting a frank exchange of views from the chatterati.


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

His writing style is a bit weird, its slightly medieval, one could expect him to say gadzooks..


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## white rabbit (Oct 12, 2013)

That must be how they talk in the real world.


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## Favelado (Oct 12, 2013)

He answers the criticisms of the Mail he fancies taking on but leaves some pretty important ones about, you know, support for fascism, promoting panic stories and whipping up hatred etc.

It's still interesting to hear from him though. This story has to burn out soon, the general public must feel done with it by now. I'm happy for another few months of it if necessary.


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

500 comments in half an hour!


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

> With 350 comments in 28 minutes the entire Guardian readership seems to be in auto mode. I bet some people have been up all night waiting for the Comments to open, like the Harrods sale.


 
have to say I laughed at this, definitely some truth in it, some people were waiting for comments to open and had their prepared their submissions.


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## chilango (Oct 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> have to say I laughed at this, definitely some truth in it, some people were waiting for comments to open



Were you one of them?


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

You know what, i reckon if i'd wanted to read guardian comments i would go and read them. I think the same would apply to facebook comments. Or comments on the left unity site or the peoples assembly or anywhere else. I think this place is still urban75 isn't it?


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2013)

oh do fuck off, no wonder people are leaving.


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## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> oh do fuck off, no wonder people are leaving.


who's left?


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> oh do fuck off, no wonder people are leaving.


They've been leaving ever since you joined and started moaning straightaway that people are leaving. This is u75 - your constant pasting of and concentration on_ comments elsewhere _ (not even articles ffs) makes me wonder why you don't go and post in the places where those comments are made rather than here. I don't care about facebook comments of cif comments or any of the other stuff you obsessively post on here - if i did i'd be on bloody facebook rather than u75.


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:


> who's left?


Did you miss the mass exodus of posters because there's_ simply not enough_ guardian comments sections comments posted here, or facebook comments from pages they can't see, or comments from sites they aren't on being posted on here day after day by treelover?


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## Dan U (Oct 12, 2013)

As someone who mostly reads this part of the forum rather than posts, I find the obsession with some have with CIF posts weird. Is this how we should measure political stories or issues - firstly if they are in CIF and then if so how many comments they got and how quickly. 

It's weird, there is much better stuff in here than that.


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## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

Well, no I didn't. Other than the handful who fucked off over that firky mess the population has been stable (if ageing) here for years. I was hoping tl might have some actual examples, as its clearly a massive concern...


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> oh do fuck off, no wonder people are leaving.



The boards would be empty, if your constant tales of woe were to be believed, Jeremiah.


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## Zabo (Oct 12, 2013)

Some very good comments in the G's readers' section. It could almost be a black comedy but I don't think Nazi apologists like Dacre are capable of such things.

I wonder how many readers they lost?

Which reminds me... This little feature takes some beating. They just love nostalgia.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...life-Hitler-s-capital-war-reduced-rubble.html


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## krtek a houby (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:


> Well, no I didn't. Other than the handful who fucked off over that firky mess the population has been stable (if ageing) here for years. I was hoping tl might have some actual examples, as its clearly a massive concern...


 
Is Firky gone again?


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## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

Probably not


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## frogwoman (Oct 12, 2013)

Zabo said:


> Some very good comments in the G's readers' section. It could almost be a black comedy but I don't think Nazi apologists like Dacre are capable of such things.
> 
> I wonder how many readers they lost?
> 
> ...



 i dont even have to read it . "Sunshine and swastikas" really mail? really  

mind you the guardian would probably do a feature on german 1930s period rustic kitchens if they could


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## frogwoman (Oct 12, 2013)

you know its true. "Gretchen and Siegfried from Dortmund show off their new Kinder, Kirche, Kuche kitchen and their brand new Volkswagen car. Ornate swastika designs by approved Reich artists (£100) decorate the kitchen and they have a wood burning stove to help them get in touch with the land the way their Fuhrer intends. There is the Fuhrer's portrait in the living room above the authentic Bavarian pinewood table (£2000) "You can cook all sorts of things on this wood-burning stove, apart from kosher food obviously," (£5000) Gretchen says. "We made our own artisan rustic bread last week on a specially designed swastika bread tin (£550) which is designed to spontaneously combust if it cannot detect pork concentrations of more than 100 parts per billion at all times. Last month we had had a health detox and been eating only vegan superfoods from a co-operative in Cologne so it started to spark a bit, but we have remedied it with our home-smoked ham and bratwurst, something all Guardian readers would enjoy".

"


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2013)

Dacre losing the plot??


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## treelover (Oct 14, 2013)

Blimey, he really does seem to live in a different era than most people, tbh, never even heard of that term before, though its clearly very very derogatory.


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## rioted (Oct 14, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> german 1930s period rustic kitchens if they could


Whats wrong with 1930s period rustic kitchens? Was german 1930s period technology all crap and not worthy of comment or study?


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## Fez909 (Oct 14, 2013)

treelover said:


> Blimey, he really does seem to live in a different era than most people, tbh, never even heard of that term before, though its clearly very very derogatory.



Ditto. Just had to Google it. Unbelievable.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2013)

Yes, it is unbelievable. Probably cause that's blatantly a spoof account. The idea of Dacre having a twitter account is a fairly incongruous one. Its not how he operates is it?


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## Bernie Gunther (Oct 14, 2013)

He's gaga and about to be put in a comfy room someplace quiet.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2013)

he isnt.


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## Fez909 (Oct 14, 2013)

killer b said:


> Yes, it is unbelievable. Probably cause that's blatantly a spoof account. The idea of Dacre having a twitter account is a fairly incongruous one. Its not how he operates is it?



Account suspended now. Makes sense that it was a spoof account, but why suspend a spoof account?


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2013)

Dunno. It is though. Don't let your desire to see Dacre hung out to dry cloud your judgement.


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## Bernie Gunther (Oct 14, 2013)

killer b said:


> he isnt.



Depends on the prevailing media narrative. If it portrays him as weeing himself uncontrollably, dressing as Rudolph Hess and and shouting at buses, he could find himself being sidelined and shoved into a care home someplace.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2013)

What prevailing media narrative?


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## Fez909 (Oct 14, 2013)

killer b said:


> Dunno. It is though. Don't let your desire to see Dacre hung out to dry cloud your judgement.



No judgement clouded. I saw the Tweet and just assumed it was real. I don't really do Twitter. As soon as you said it was fake it made sense.

Just surprised that a parody account has been suspended.


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## Bernie Gunther (Oct 14, 2013)

killer b said:


> What prevailing media narrative?



I suggest starting one like that. Maybe Eva Braun rather than Hess though.


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## The Pale King (Oct 14, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> you know its true. "Gretchen and Siegfried from Dortmund show off their new Kinder, Kirche, Kuche kitchen and their brand new Volkswagen car. Ornate swastika designs by approved Reich artists (£100) decorate the kitchen and they have a wood burning stove to help them get in touch with the land the way their Fuhrer intends. There is the Fuhrer's portrait in the living room above the authentic Bavarian pinewood table (£2000) "You can cook all sorts of things on this wood-burning stove, apart from kosher food obviously," (£5000) Gretchen says. "We made our own artisan rustic bread last week on a specially designed swastika bread tin (£550) which is designed to spontaneously combust if it cannot detect pork concentrations of more than 100 parts per billion at all times. Last month we had had a health detox and been eating only vegan superfoods from a co-operative in Cologne so it started to spark a bit, but we have remedied it with our home-smoked ham and bratwurst, something all Guardian readers would enjoy".
> 
> "



Fuck me that reads like a Viz parody 

...but it's not 

They're clearly getting a big, exciting, libidinal thrill from fantasising about domestic life under Fascism.


----------



## stavros (Oct 14, 2013)

killer b said:


> The idea of Dacre having a twitter account is a fairly incongruous one. Its not how he operates is it?



He has a long record of being suspicious of social media.


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## William of Walworth (Oct 14, 2013)

killer b said:


> What prevailing media narrative?


 
Steve Bell has one ...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Cheap pops, but weren't too bad last week for a few passing laughs ...


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## William of Walworth (Oct 14, 2013)

That Paul Dacre piece from Saturday is definitely worth a read (I mean the article itself, not the CiF stuff, which I couldn't be arsed with).

He's demented. He really does seriously believe that 'The Left' control everything, not least the BBC and a lot else ... and that the Mail are speaking up for the unfairly silenced/censored majority


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## youngian (Dec 11, 2013)

Daily Mail is at it again making vile insults at politicians' families. This time Miriam Clegg "the castanet clacker wife".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggie-castanet-clacker-wife.html#ixzz2nBn8TKRr

Regardless of views on Clegg the politician he deserves to have his family defended against Dacre and a talentless shithead like Quentin Letts.


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## stavros (Dec 11, 2013)

Pretty much anyone would have the moral upper hand with Dacre.


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## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2013)

Wrong


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## Wilf (Dec 11, 2013)

So, instead of Iberian clack clack, the Daily Mail want Morris Dancing?


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## J Ed (Dec 11, 2013)

I would have thought that Miriam's Partido Popular padre would be right up the Mail's alley tbh


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