# People in UK who can't speak English



## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language.  But there are tens  of thousands of foreigners who settled in UK over last few decades who have almost nil understanding of English.  These people add to bigotry of colour skin people and public perception of foreigners.  In fact most immigrants in UK, whether settled ten years plus, students and even refugees have a good grasp of English language.  Local councils and NHS employ translators for minority of people born overseas who are here and don't speak our language


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## bi0boy (Aug 27, 2011)

Point?


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## frogwoman (Aug 27, 2011)

this'll go well.


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## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2011)

What is "bigotry of colour skin people"?


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't think councils should  routinely translate stuff. Its a waste of time and effort.
 whats the fucking point of having a Somali housing benefit form really think about.
 even if some Somali with no English rocks up to get his claim form fills it in correctly its only going to have to be translated again so HB can actually enter it.


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## Fedayn (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language. But there are tens of thousands of foreigners who settled in UK over last few decades who have almost nil understanding of English. These people add to bigotry of colour skin people and public perception of foreigners. In fact most immigrants in UK, whether settled ten years plus, students and even refugees have a good grasp of English language. Local councils and NHS employ translators for minority of people born overseas who are here and don't speak our language



You mean Geordies and Yorkshires?


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## Brainaddict (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> These people add to bigotry of colour skin people and public perception of foreigners.


Yeah man, people cause bigotry by being all different. Stupid of them really. They should just all be the same as us and then no one would be bigotted.


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## ddraig (Aug 27, 2011)

likesfish said:


> I don't think councils should routinely translate stuff. Its a waste of time and effort.
> whats the fucking point of having a Somali housing benefit form really think about.
> even if some Somali with no English rocks up to get his claim form fills it in correctly its only going to have to be translated again so HB can actually enter it.


how much difference does it make to you? seriously?

maybe you should get annoyed about the much higher amounts spent on consultants who achieve fuck all and cut vital services.

go away and have a think


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## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2011)

totaly don't give a shit. I'm more concerned about illiteracy rates among native speakers.


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## lizzieloo (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language. But there are tens of thousands of foreigners who settled in UK over last few decades who have almost nil understanding of English. These people add to bigotry of colour skin people and public perception of foreigners. In fact most immigrants in UK, whether settled ten years plus, students and even refugees have a good grasp of English language. Local councils and NHS employ translators for minority of people born overseas who are here and don't speak our language



How the fuck do you know "these people" don't speak the language?


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## Brainaddict (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob I'd like you to tell us your position in this. Are you an immigrant yourself? I would guess from your grammar that English is not your first language. I'm not being snippy about it. I just want to know where you're coming from. Do you feel that you are targetted by racists because other people let you down by being less integrated immigrants than you? Reveal your position or this is just another internet flaming with nothing of interest likely to come of it.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 27, 2011)

i don't understand the OP. can Mr Blob please write it again in English?


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Mr Blob I'd like you to tell us your position in this. Are you an immigrant yourself? I would guess from your grammar that English is not your first language. I'm not being snippy about it. I just want to know where you're coming from. Do you feel that you are targetted by racists because other people let you down by being less integrated immigrants than you? Reveal your position or this is just another internet flaming with nothing of interest likely to come of it.


 
I'm British born- parents from abroad- second generation immigrant.  Yeah, people in street and strangers about rudely ask 'do you speak English'.  Its annoying as English is natural to me- a number of people have actually commented I write well


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2011)

It does annoy me because its fucking stupid. Like when some community wanker/worker stands up in front of a room full of white residents and says we really need more input from ethnic minority members of the community.
  Its Brighton you stupid cunt at least know something about the fucking community your supposed to be helping


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> totaly don't give a shit. I'm more concerned about illiteracy rates among native speakers.


Yeah, the school drop out who never did any work in classroom that teachers set



butchersapron said:


> What is "bigotry of colour skin people"?



people who think all foreigners are strangers to British way of life


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 27, 2011)

ddraig said:


> the much higher amounts spent on consultants


Oooh don't start me on consultants! I've had decades of consultants popping up with monotonous regularity. In fact I'm off to start a thread about consultants and the like.

edited to add eek, after I've cooked supper for the hungry hordes.


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## Brainaddict (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> I'm British born- parents from abroad- second generation immigrant. Yeah, people in street and strangers about rudely ask 'do you speak English'. Its annoying as English is natural to me- a number of people have actually commented I write well


Since the vast majority of immigrants in Britain do speak English, why do you think people ask you that question?


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i don't understand the OP. can Mr Blob please write it again in English?



xvbn...yyy''wed//hh


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Since the vast majority of immigrants in Britain do speak English, why do you think people ask you that question?


they're dick-heads



Brainaddict said:


> Yeah man, people cause bigotry by being all different. Stupid of them really. They should just all be the same as us and then no one would be bigotted.


21st century- preach tolerance


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## ddraig (Aug 27, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Oooh don't start me on consultants! I've had decades of consultants popping up with monotonous regularity. In fact I'm off to start a thread about consultants and the like.
> 
> edited to add eek, after I've cooked supper for the hungry hordes.


Yes. and I find it very hard not to ask them if they think they bring or add any value, as well as whether they sleep at night and have a conscience!


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2011)

Consultants being lizards have no conscience or feel pain so your allowed to set light to them


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## _angel_ (Aug 27, 2011)

likesfish said:


> I don't think councils should routinely translate stuff. Its a waste of time and effort.
> whats the fucking point of having a Somali housing benefit form really think about.
> even if some Somali with no English rocks up to get his claim form fills it in correctly its only going to have to be translated again so HB can actually enter it.



Not convinced you speak English, in some of your posts on here.


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## killer b (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> a number of people have actually commented I write well


do any of them speak english?


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## _angel_ (Aug 27, 2011)

My friends mum doesn't really speak any English and she's been here for 40 years at least. It can't be ideal for her, having to take someone with her if she ever has to deal with anything official. However, she's worked all the time she's been in this country and paid taxes, so I think any idea that she shouldn't live here totally wrong, obviously. I don't think there should be a  test or anything.


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Not convinced you speak English, in some of your posts on here.


I just type fast- when I write to my best friend its 100% English



killer b said:


> do any of them speak english?



everyone does- its law of land


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## _angel_ (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> I just type fast- when I write to my best friend its 100% English


Um I was saying that to Likesfish. I don't really know who you are.


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## geminisnake (Aug 27, 2011)

lizzieloo said:


> How the fuck do you know "these people" don't speak the language?



Not sticking up for the OP but I do know from experience that there are quite a few older chinese people in Scotland that don't speak English which can cause problems. There was a chinese lady in Aberdeen Royal Infirmary last year that nurses and doctors couldn't communicate with as she had NO english


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## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2011)

likefish's posts are akin to being shouted at in code down a really crap radio line


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> My friends mum doesn't really speak any English and she's been here for 40 years at least. It can't be ideal for her, having to take someone with her if she ever has to deal with anything official. However, she's worked all the time she's been in this country and paid taxes, so I think any idea that she shouldn't live here totally wrong, obviously. I don't think there should be a test or anything.


That's quite common with first generation immigrants in UK-  always worked for a living say in shops/restaurants, contributed to national economy over decades and all this immigration debate weeds out non-English speakers here as undesirables


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## _angel_ (Aug 27, 2011)

Yes, especially the older generation more often women than men (I know they say women do better at languages but I think it's more social circumstance). One girl I was at school with said she didn't know a word of English until she went to school aged 5.... and she was born here. You couldn't tell that English wasn't her first language by the time she was at high school though.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob, all I can say is that by the looks of it your 'first' language is one that doesn't use the definite article in the same way that English does. You do write well in English, however you do not use the definite article 'the' correctly when you write.

Examples:


> everyone does- its law of land ]



'It's *the* law of *the* land'



> people who think all foreigners are strangers to British way of life



'*The* British way of life'

Apart from what I have said above, I am unsure I can comment on your OP as I am not sure what your point is.


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## inferno (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language.



Since when?

I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2011)

inferno said:


> Since when?
> 
> I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.


i've always found the irish, the australians and even the americans, canadians and new zealanders to have a certain degree of proficiency in the english language. i am surprised you haven't found the same. even the south africans (afrikaners) i've met have had passable english.

are you sure you're not full of shit?


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

inferno said:


> Since when?



It's true, even though my mum is from the US if she hadn't gotten her degree at an English university she would have had to do the language test.



> I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.



I find that highly unlikely. Occasionally I have come across someone's elderly mother who is never going to be that proficient at English having not moved here till she was aged and deaf, but most people can speak a bit of it even if they haven't been in the UK for long.


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

My wife had to do the test, she has a masters in English Lit.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> It's true, even though my mum is from the US if she hadn't gotten her degree at an English university she would have had to do the language test.


that's not exactly what inferno's saying. he's saying that he's not met any immigrant - not simply anyone applying for british nationality - who can speak english to a reasonable level.


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## weltweit (Aug 27, 2011)

I konw the spanish mother of a friend who lived here since the sixties and she has never learnt english.

Now her husband has passed away and she will not move from her London flat to be closer to her family she is very isolated as she knows hardly anyone who speaks spanish.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

inferno said:


> Since when?
> 
> I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.



Maybe they do, but when they meet someone like you, they feign incomprehension. Are you a bus ticket inspector?


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## weltweit (Aug 27, 2011)

I can't imagine living somewhere and not learning the native language.


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## _angel_ (Aug 27, 2011)

inferno said:


> Since when?
> 
> I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.


I live in Leeds and know plenty of people born oversees that speak perfectly good English. Where the heck are you?
If you're working as a taxi driver/ in a takeaway/ restaurant/ shop you're interacting with people all day, going to help your language skills.
The people that don't know English well tend to be elderly.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that's not exactly what inferno's saying. he's saying that he's not met any immigrant - not simply anyone applying for british nationality - who can speak english to a reasonable level.


No, the first bit, the o really was in response to another post.

I did respond to the rest of it


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> No, the first bit, the o really was in response to another post.
> 
> I did respond to the rest of it


i saw your edit after i quoted your post.


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## isvicthere? (Aug 27, 2011)

Edited


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## Orang Utan (Aug 27, 2011)

inferno said:


> Since when?
> 
> I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.


they probably haven't applied for citizenship then 
many immigrants choose not to become citizens


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> they probably haven't applied for citizenship then
> many immigrants choose not to become citizens



Its not just for citizenship, just permanent residence


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## Orang Utan (Aug 27, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> I live in Leeds and know plenty of people born oversees that speak perfectly good English. Where the heck are you?
> If you're working as a taxi driver/ in a takeaway/ restaurant/ shop you're interacting with people all day, going to help your language skills.
> The people that don't know English well tend to be elderly.


i've just spent a month helping to teach people English and there are quite a few younger people who are learning to speak English. But so what? What are mr blob and inferno complaining about?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 27, 2011)

spawnofsatan said:


> Its not just for citizenship, just permanent residence


what is?


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

The English language test.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

spawnofsatan said:


> The English language test.



Since last November.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/aboutus/features/englishlangrequirementpartners


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## Orang Utan (Aug 27, 2011)

right, that appears to be just for people applying to join their partners here, not all migrants (though i do think it's unfair)


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

Ah, it was a couple of years ago now.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

spawnofsatan said:


> My wife had to do the test, she has a masters in English Lit.



Fuck me. Unbelievably stupid bureaucracy. Where did she do her masters?


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## agricola (Aug 27, 2011)

The Home Office are mad - they kick you out if you dont learn the language of these islands, and kick you out if you try to.


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

Stanford


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

spawnofsatan said:


> Stanford



And they still made her do a test. That's ridiculous.


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

Part of the criteria for indefinite leave to remain.....


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i saw your edit after i quoted your post.


Yes, I know, I tend to post stuff before I've finished writing it


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> And they still made her do a test. That's ridiculous.


Like I said, if my mum's degree hadn't been a 1st from Nottingham Uni she would also have had to do a test, it's how they make it not racist, by having everyone do it. 

She's lived in the UK since she was 19 too, qualified to teach in the UK, etc.


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

weltweit said:


> I can't imagine living somewhere and not learning the native language.


That's why I declined a job in France- can't see myself mastering their language



_angel_ said:


> I live in Leeds and know plenty of people born oversees that speak perfectly good English. Where the heck are you?
> If you're working as a taxi driver/ in a takeaway/ restaurant/ shop you're interacting with people all day, going to help your language skills.
> The people that don't know English well tend to be elderly.


In London loadsa-people from overseas speak brilliant English too. But there remains pockets of the overseas population for some reason or another managing in this country illiterate



Orang Utan said:


> they probably haven't applied for citizenship then
> many immigrants choose not to become citizens



Yeah, a proportion of immigrant workers have no desire for permanent abode in this country


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Mr Blob, all I can say is that by the looks of it your 'first' language is one that doesn't use the definite article in the same way that English does. You do write well in English, however you do not use the definite article 'the' correctly when you write.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> That's why I declined a job in France- can't see myself mastering their language


I dunno about _master_, I would gladly take a low level job in France and try to get by on my poor French until it improved....obvs I wouldn't be getting any job right away that required fluency as I haven't got it. I don't really see what the problem is.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I dunno about _master_, I would gladly take a low level job in France and try to get by on my poor French until it improved....obvs I wouldn't be getting any job right away that required fluency as I haven't got it. I don't really see what the problem is.



In Mr Blob's world everybody should stay in their own village until they die. Outside is far too dangerous.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> In Mr Blob's world everybody should stay in their own village until they die. Outside is far too dangerous.


He's right, I wish I wasn't 75 miles away from where I was born, everyone talks right posh round here and pints are bloody loads.


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## isvicthere? (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> It's true, even though my mum is from the US if she hadn't gotten her degree at an English university she would have had to do the language test.
> .



Anyone who says "gotten" should be immediately deported.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

isvicthere? said:


> Anyone who says "gotten" should be immediately deported.


Back to Nottingham?


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> That's why I declined a job in France- can't see myself mastering their language


You've just given yourself away as probably not a native to these shores.  Every monoglot English speaker knows deep down that if they shout loudly and slowly enough any foreigner will understand.


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Back to Nottingham?


in my case Leicester- still a plaque in hospital bearing my name


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> I'm British born- parents from abroad- second generation immigrant. Yeah, people in street and strangers about rudely ask 'do you speak English'. Its annoying as English is natural to me- a number of people have actually commented I write well



Going by the crap composition in the first post, they lied to you.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> in my case Leicester- still a plaque in hospital bearing my name


They bulldozed the building I was born in a few years back, probably for the best really....


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Back to Nottingham?


 
For the love of god, no!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Since the vast majority of immigrants in Britain do speak English, why do you think people ask you that question?



Because he's wearing a _Shalwar Kameez_ and is about to slaughter a goat on the pavement?


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

spawnofsatan said:


> For the love of god, no!


I'm in ur town, eating all ur drugz.


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I'm in ur town, eating all ur drugz.


 
Looks round, are you fuck.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

spawnofsatan said:


> Looks round, are you fuck.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> they're dick-heads
> 
> 21st century- preach tolerance



Tolerance is a great ideal.

Unfortunately though, society-at-large are often not set the best of examples by those who are supposedly our leaders.

If only we had halfway-decent role-models!


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> <snip>English is natural to me- a number of people have actually commented I write well


Damning with faint praise, if you ask me. Are you familiar with "all the girls say I'm pretty fly, for a white boy" or "you scrub up well"?

Native speakers don't go round congratulating other native speakers on their literacy. Next you'll be telling me that you have no accent.  Please tell me this.  I could do with a laugh.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> I just type fast- when I write to my best friend its 100% English
> 
> everyone does- its law of land



Nope, there's no legislation compelling the speaking and writing of English, _du dumkopf_.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, there's no legislation compelling the speaking and writing of English, _du dumkopf_.



dummkopf, nicht wahr?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> That's quite common with first generation immigrants in UK- always worked for a living say in shops/restaurants, contributed to national economy over decades and all this immigration debate weeds out non-English speakers here as undesirables



The only undesirables are people stupid enough to think that way.


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## spawnofsatan (Aug 27, 2011)

Achtung Spitfire?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

inferno said:


> Since when?
> 
> I live in Leeds and I have yet to meet any immigrant that speaks English with any degree of proficiency or even to a passable level, most don't speak any English at all.



If you apply for formal citizenship, there's a minimum level of proficiency in the English language required in order to pass the written and spoken "exams" they give you.


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, there's no legislation compelling the speaking and writing of English, _du dumkopf_.


*Metaphorically throws every German dictionary in the flat at VP, including the wristbreaker.*  Check your spelling du Arsch!


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you apply for formal citizenship, there's a minimum level of proficiency in the English language required in order to pass the written and spoken "exams" they give you.


AFAIK the level of English you'd need is approximately that of an old O level test for a modern language, but with less tolerance of errors, and requiring a wider vocabulary.  Not impossible, but nowhere near instantly achievable either.


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Next you'll be telling me that you have no accent. Please tell me this. I could do with a laugh.



For the last two weeks I've lost my voice- blame the intermittent wet weather and bug about. You're lucky as you read what I'm thinking bearing in mind I've been mute since mid-August and only communicate in print


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## Mr Blob (Aug 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, there's no legislation compelling the speaking and writing of English, _du dumkopf_.


Last week I wrote a ranting letter to PM David Cameroon in Spanish


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Last week I wrote a ranting letter to PM David Cameroon in Spanish



He'll probably get Clegg's wife to translate it for him.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> You're lucky as you read what I'm thinking



We are indeed blessed.


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> For the last two weeks I've lost my voice<snip>


How awful for you old chap.  You still haven't said whether your usual voice has been described as lacking an accent.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> He'll probably get Clegg's wife to translate it for him.


_Real_ men use googletrans.


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## Greebo (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> _Real_ men use googletrans.


and then get a native speaker to polish it


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> _Real_ men use googletrans.



Since when has anyone laboured under the delusion that Cameron is a "real man"?

"Plastic-faced dickless robot" maybe, but "real man"? I bet he doesn't even fart, the unnatural bastard!


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## boohoo (Aug 27, 2011)

Someone told me their mum couldn't speak English even though she lived over here for 40 years. I suppose it's like the Brits who go to live abroad and don't learn the language. Judging from this thread, urban peeps think that's acceptable.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 27, 2011)

I think there is a serious point to be made about communication. The OP does not make it remotely well. Poor English skills are a barrier to all sorts of things regardless of ethnicity/national background, and yes this includes far too many first language English speakers of stock which is broadly indigenous to these isles. Poor English use can exacerbate racism, but is far more likely to only add to racism that is there in the first place, so that is not my prime concern, racists being racist regardless.

The ability to speak English should, I think, be encouraged where it is lacking, and there can be some complex cultural challenges in doing that. This is the exact opposite of what will be happening under the tory cuts, As Likefish alludes to, some councils have started to question the point of having so many translation services, especially in the current climate.

Overall though, it's far from the biggest problem we face. The English speaking peoples must be among the most monoglot on the planet. So monoglots like me, and quite possibly Mr Blob, ought to have a bit of humility before seeking to judge others too harshly on their language skills, or lack thereof.


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

I've met quite a few Welsh that are a bit sketchy on their English when I lived in Gwynedd, and there are still elderly up there that can't or wont speak a word of English.

TBF you don't really need to speak a language to get by anyway. I spent an amusing few months living in Amsterdam where the local Turkish owned offie was run by some people that could speak Turkish and a bit of Dutch, but no English at all. Managed to get by fine and even have a few laughs with them. *shrugs*

Same when I worked in hospital in Leicester, being a hospital it had plenty of elderly parents that either never had any English or had forgotten it with old age.


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## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i've just spent a month helping to teach people English and there are quite a few younger people who are learning to speak English. But so what? What are mr blob and inferno complaining about?


So they want to speak English, not sure how anyone can fault that.


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## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> So they want to speak English, not sure how anyone can fault that.


Best way to learn a language, going to the country.


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## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I think there is a serious point to be made about communication. The OP does not make it remotely well. Poor English skills are a barrier to all sorts of things regardless of ethnicity/national background, and yes *this includes far too many first language English speakers of stock which is broadly indigenous to these isles.* Poor English use can exacerbate racism, but is far more likely to only add to racism that is there in the first place, so that is not my prime concern, racists being racist regardless.
> 
> The ability to speak English should, I think, be encouraged where it is lacking, and there can be some complex cultural challenges in doing that. This is the exact opposite of what will be happening under the tory cuts, As Likefish alludes to, some councils have started to question the point of having so many translation services, especially in the current climate.
> 
> Overall though, it's far from the biggest problem we face. The English speaking peoples must be among the most monoglot on the planet. So monoglots like me, and quite possibly Mr Blob, ought to have a bit of humility before seeking to judge others too harshly on their language skills, or lack thereof.



Mke 'em drink wine outside a cafe when they're 8. That'll learn these filthers. Yes to the common market.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Best way to learn a language, going to the country.


Only if you get enough interraction - the long hours of a bottom of the heap job plus just going home to sleep won't help you learn more than a few words.  Even at its most effective, learning by immersion can be very unpleasant and frustrating.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language. But there are tens of thousands of foreigners who settled in UK over last few decades who have almost nil understanding of English. These people add to bigotry of colour skin people and public perception of foreigners. In fact most immigrants in UK, whether settled ten years plus, students and even refugees have a good grasp of English language. Local councils and NHS employ translators for minority of people born overseas who are here and don't speak our language


There are a lot of so-called native born people who can barely string a sentence together. Funny how people forget them... isn't it?

Then there are people who say "hotting up" when they should be saying "heating up". Most immigrants have a better grasp of grammar than the natives.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Only if you get enough interraction - the long hours of a bottom of the heap job plus just going home to sleep won't help you learn more than a few words. Even at its most effective, learning by immersion can be very unpleasant and frustrating.


Well yes, but if one of your intentions is to learn the language you go out of your way to interact, even if your job doesn't allow for it much.

I still remember the nephew of a local pizza shop owner when I was in my late teens. HE came over from Pakistan barely speaking English so his uncle promptly put him on counter service so he could 'interact and learn'. He went from that, to within a year or two 'don't tell my uncle, but I went out for my birthday and had a pint of beer' - about another year or so after that it was all 'Wicked pills about bruv, had it large at the weekend, etc' - he got sent home shortly after.....


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't know whether anybody else has said this, but how many of the English in Spain speak Spanish?


----------



## boohoo (Aug 28, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I don't know whether anybody else has said this, but how many of the English in Spain speak Spanish?


I said it and no-one noticed. Maybe my english isn't good enough. Or maybe people didn't want to throw that idea into the equation.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I don't know whether anybody else has said this, but how many of the English in Spain speak Spanish?


Afaik you can go to Spain, get a job working for an English owned company in Spain, and spend years never getting past 'Un cerveza por favour'.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Afaik you can go to Spain, get a job working for an English owned company in Spain, and spend years never getting past 'Un cerveza por favour'.



And the english language is everywhere - trying to get people to speak some foreign to me abroad is difficult - even when I've asked them to tell me what it is in their own language.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Well yes, but if one of your intentions is to learn the language you go out of your way to interact, even if your job doesn't allow for it much.


Have you tried doing that yourself? Just because that teenager you remember was able to use colloquial English within a couple of years it doesn't mean he'd be able to fill in a form (FFS literate & educated people struggle with them even in their mothertongue), fully understand a contract, or be able to understand what might be said by a GP, let alone during a medical emergency.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2011)

likefish be fucked. Kick him out. Send him home.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Have you tried doing that yourself? Just because that teenager you remember was able to use colloquial English within a couple of years it doesn't mean he'd be able to fill in a form (FFS literate & educated people struggle with them even in their mothertongue), fully understand a contract, or be able to understand what might be said by a GP or during a medical emergency .


Yes, I have travelled all around Europe, even a few days in each country I have picked up key phrases (such as I am vegetarian, this does not mean I eat chicken or fish), and travelling with people from other Euro countries my French, etc came on leaps and bounds. I normally try to read the local newspapers as well - quite often you can make it out, even in Czech the fizzy mineral water pretty much says "tizit innit" or some such - nice big alliterative hint there, literally no idea how some mates managed to get a crate of that instead of plain despite 'not speaking Czech', I suspect they didn't even attempt to think about it.

When I get back to the UK I am surprised to hear shop assistants speaking English sometimes.

Sadly I only seem to be able to access that part of my brain when I have to though, it seems to disappear out my head within days of getting back to the UK.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

boohoo said:


> And the english language is everywhere - trying to get people to speak some foreign to me abroad is difficult - even when I've asked them to tell me what it is in their own language.


That hasn't been my experience, but then again I didn't stick to areas geared up for holidaymakers from the UK.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> That hasn't been my experience, but then again I didn't stick to areas geared up for holidaymakers from the UK.


I went to an intercambio in Spain and unless i found someone whose English was as bad as my Spanish, they would all try and practice their English on me. I'm not very confident at all with learning a foreign language.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Sadly I only seem to be able to access that part of my brain when I have to though, it seems to disappear out my head within days of getting back to the UK.


That's because it's passive - your brain recognises those words when nudged, but can't retrieve them without it.  AFAIK active memory etc (the type which lets you find the words without the nudge) comes sooner if you're taught, instead of letting your brain decode stuff by context.  Passive is useful - it lets you understand a lot more than you can easily speak or write - but active stops the rest getting lost.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> That's because it's passive - your brain recognises those words when nudged, but can't retrieve them without it. AFAIK active memory etc (the type which lets you find the words without the nudge) comes sooner if you're taught, instead of letting your brain decode stuff by context. Passive is useful - it lets you understand a lot more than you can easily speak or write - but active stops the rest getting lost.


Seeing as my aim is to be able to speak/get by in forn, rather than to be a UN translator - I can't see it matters.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Aug 28, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I don't know whether anybody else has said this, but how many of the English in Spain speak Spanish?



I would guess the vast majority speak some Spanish. Just takes the less talented (like myself) much longer.

There are communities of mostly brits on the south coast who naturally speak to each other in English. But, I know very few expats who have not made the effort. Those that don't soon return to the UK.

All twons in Spain offer free introductory language lessons to all immigrants. In many places the lessons become popular social meeting points also. They're a good way of meeting people in a similar position to yourself.

As far as any immigrant learning the language of the country they move to goes: I think it's important to appreciate people have very different language learning abilities for different reasons. Brits are probably the most disadvantaged in the developed World. The standard education system doesn't even teach us the grammar of our own language. Second language teaching at school is minimal.

I met a teacher taking a school group from North London on holiday to Granada a few months ago. He told me there were over 50 languages in his school, and most children started with no English. Most of the children were confidently practicing Spanish. Best time to learn - the older you get bthe more difficult it gets. I fully understand why some elderly people give up. If hearing is fading also learning a language will be even more difficult.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I went to an intercambio in Spain and unless i found someone whose English was as bad as my Spanish, they would all try and practice their English on me. I'm not very confident at all with learning a foreign language.



Even if they reply in English, you don't have to.  Okay, IME, gets a bit surreal with them butchering your language and you butchering theirs, but part of the trick is to stop worrying about mistakes as long as you manage to communicate in that language.  FWIW sometimes I didn't find it that pleasant or comfortable either.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Seeing as my aim is to be able to speak/get by in forn, rather than to be a UN translator - I can't see it matters


On its own, passive can just about understand what is being said, but can't find enough words to ask a question.  Passive can't start a phone call, passive struggles to even leave a post it for the flatmate who's nicked your food again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Seeing as my aim is to be able to speak/get by in forn, rather than to be a UN translator - I can't see it matters.



It matters 'cos it's the difference between saying the right thing and being chased by an angry crowd of villagers with pitchforks and burning brands because you (unintentionally, obviously!  )just told some old Catholic grandma that you wanted to sacrifice her youngest grandchild to "il diablo".


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It matters 'cos it's the difference between saying the right thing and being chased by an angry crowd of villagers with pitchforks and burning brands because you (unintentionally, obviously!  )just told some old Catholic grandma that you wanted to sacrifice her youngest grandchild to "il diablo".



My sis managed to declare herself frigid in Paris, thinking she was talking about the weather being cold.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> My sis managed to declare herself frigid in Paris, thinking she was talking about the weather being cold.



 How embarrassed was she when she realised?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> My sis managed to declare herself frigid in Paris, thinking she was talking about the weather being cold.


I managed to do that during carnival week in a German backend of nowhere - and that after pulling.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> I managed to do that during carnival week in a German backend of nowhere - and that after pulling.


Easily done actually!


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> I just type fast- when I write to my best friend its 100% English


It's.


----------



## kmarxs&sparks (Aug 28, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language. But there are tens of thousands of foreigners who settled in UK over last few decades who have almost nil understanding of English.



I'm happy English is required for people coming into the UK. It's not a racist thing or whatever but concern for the people involved.
You simply can't live properly in a country when you can't speak the language.
The requirement must be tempered with provision of English courses for those in need.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2011)

mr blob (and many of us) would certainly fail the citizenship test


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2011)

boohoo said:


> And the english language is everywhere - trying to get people to speak some foreign to me abroad is difficult - even when I've asked them to tell me what it is in their own language.



Not in Andalucia, it isn't...


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> These people add to bigotry of colour skin people and public perception of foreigners.


Is it the _colour skin people_ who are bigoted, and is it your thesis that their bigotry is added to by their inability to speak English?

Or, are you suggesting that bigotry is a natural reaction to someone who doesn't speak your language (providing they are a _colour skin person_)?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> mr blob (and many of us) would certainly fail the citizenship test


I'd be interested to give it a go, actually.  Just to see whether I'd be deported or not.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 28, 2011)

I was hoping the BNP would win the last election so they'd pay me to fuck off back to Australia.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> I'd be interested to give it a go, actually. Just to see whether I'd be deported or not.


http://www.ukcitizenshiptest.co.uk/
i failed 
a friend of mine recently became a citizen and we had a citizenship pub quiz at her party to celebrate the fact. only one team out 40 odd people got the required 80% and her partner was in that team and must have been swatting.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2011)

if there is an online english competency test for visa applicants, can someone post it here please? would like to try it out!


----------



## Belushi (Aug 28, 2011)

15 out of 24 (63%) but really is knowing that members of the Church of England can be described as Anglicans or Episcopalians really relevant to modern life in Britain. Some of the questions are ludicrous.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

*You have failed the practice citizenship test.*

*Questions answered correctly: 15 out of 24 (63%)*

*Time taken: 04 minutes 56 seconds*

However, in my defence, I'd point out that for me the answer to "Which of the following TWO types of people get their prescriptions free of charge?" is "everyone registered with a GP in Scotland", which wasn't one of the choices.

I'm gutted that 63% is a fail, though. Surely that'd be a C+ in real life?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Belushi said:


> 15 out of 24 (63%) but really is knowing that members of the Church of England can be described as Anglicans or Episcopalians really relevant to modern life in Britain. Some of the questions are ludicrous.


I knew that one!  But, yes, some of the questions are just bizarre.


----------



## LLETSA (Aug 28, 2011)

Belushi said:


> I was hoping the BNP would win the last election so they'd pay me to fuck off back to Australia.


 
A BNP government wouldn't pay you to fuck off anywhere.

It's possible to imagine a government with policies like those of the BNP not being able to deport any more people than get deported at present. Short of a complete collapse of the existing political order in Europe and beyond, they'd be blocked every step of the way and swiftly brought down by internal and external forces.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 28, 2011)

If I were making a list of useful information for a newcomer to the UK knowing what Hansard is wouldn't be a priority.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Belushi said:


> If I were making a list of useful information for a newcomer to the UK knowing what Hansard is wouldn't be a priority.


Deviant!


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> I'd be interested to give it a go, actually. Just to see whether I'd be deported or not.



They won't let me back unless they allow me to take my HTC Sensation into the test for a bit of help.

58% here


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> They won't let me back unless they allow me to take my HTC Sensation into the test for a bit of help.
> 
> 58% here


What is an HTC Sensation?


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> My sis managed to declare herself frigid in Paris, thinking she was talking about the weather being cold.


Book learning languages can lead to this too though, it misses out a lot of slang.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2011)

smartphone


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Book learning languages can lead to this too though, it misses out a lot of slang.


That comma should be a semicolon.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> What is an HTC Sensation?



Erm...

A) A made-up name for a mobile web browsing device manufactured in Taiwan.
B) A hard boiled sweet made by Tuffs of Nottingham.

These are the questions which really matter.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Erm...
> 
> A) A made-up name for a mobile web browsing device manufactured in Taiwan.
> B) A hard boiled sweet made by Tuffs of Nottingham.
> ...


I'd like it to be B, but I'm guessing it's A.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Book learning languages can lead to this too though, it misses out a lot of slang.


She failed her French GCSE twice for a reason. She did pass on the third attempt (I would have given up). To be fair, I don't think declaring yourself frigid is actually on the curriculum!


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> She failed her French GCSE twice for a reason. She did pass on the third attempt (I would have given up). To be fair, I don't think declaring yourself frigid is actually on the curriculum!


Sac plastique....go ask for a carrier bag from that shop mate....that always gets the N00bs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> mr blob (and many of us) would certainly fail the citizenship test



likesfish would be shipped off to some gulag for "re-education".


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 28, 2011)

> You have failed the practice citizenship test.
> 
> Questions answered correctly: 17 out of 24 (71%)



Oh bugger.

Does this mean I have to leave?

Seriously, who gives a flying fudge what year divorce became legal and so on?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Book learning languages can lead to this too though, it misses out a lot of slang.


The cold/frigid (both in French and German) isn't a question of slang, but one of grammar.    It doesn't help if learners are allowed to believe that each word has a direct translation, meaning exactly the same thing:
ich bin kalt - je suis froid - I'm frigid
mir ist kalt - j'ai froid - I'm cold


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2011)

Belushi said:


> I was hoping the BNP would win the last election so they'd pay me to fuck off back to Australia.



Well, a bit of you to Aus, a bit to Poland, a bit to Wales, and flush the rest down the khazi.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> The cold/frigid (both in French and German) isn't a question of slang, but one of grammar. It doesn't help if learners are allowed to believe that each word has a direct translation, meaning exactly the same thing:
> ich bin kalt - je suis froid - I'm frigid
> mir ist kalt - j'ai froid - I'm cold


Isn't it safer to stick to il fait froid?


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

Greebo said:


> The cold/frigid (both in French and German) isn't a question of slang, but one of grammar. It doesn't help if learners are allowed to believe that each word has a direct translation, meaning exactly the same thing:
> ich bin kalt - je suis froid - I'm frigid
> mir ist kalt - j'ai froid - I'm cold


Which is why 'sac plastique' is always fun....


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2011)

58 percent fml


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> http://www.ukcitizenshiptest.co.uk/
> i failed
> a friend of mine recently became a citizen and we had a citizenship pub quiz at her party to celebrate the fact. only one team out 40 odd people got the required 80% and her partner was in that team and must have been swatting.



I failed too - 63%.

The question about prescriptions only gave correct answers for England, not the rest of the UK so was a little misleading.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

I failed that citizenship test as well, and I'm usually pretty good at multiple guess.  IMHO even to read the book to swat up for those questions, you'd need to have quite a high level of English.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

equationgirl said:


> I failed too - 63%.
> 
> The question about prescriptions only gave correct answers for England, not the rest of the UK so was a little misleading.


I got about the same.
What have those questions got to do with British life. Who knows how many hours a week children can work, or how many days schools are open. And the questions about Europe are especially irrelevant considering most people who live here have zero interest in the EU.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> 58 percent fml


Nothing like that, I could have cheated but what's the point.

Reckon it's partially to show that you really want it enough to swot up on loads of trivial shit like that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2011)

I was just commenting 'fuck my life' to my score on the citizenship test. Where will they send me- somewhere extra far away because of that dismal score.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Isn't it safer to stick to il fait froid?


Not if indoors at the time.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2011)

63% fail too. Who the fuck cares how many days schools have to be open? Or the other names of the Anglican church? Who on earth knows how many constituencies there are? What a load of bollocks. It reveals - if we didn't know already - that it was simply introduced for political reasons to appease the baying anti-immigrant mob.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> 63% fail too. Who the fuck cares how many days schools have to be open? Or the other names of the Anglican church? Who on earth knows how many constituencies there are? What a load of bollocks. It reveals - if we didn't know already - that it was simply introduced for political reasons to appease the baying anti-immigrant mob.


It's like they made those questions up for a laugh. I didn't even understand the last one about council of europe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> 63% fail too. Who the fuck cares how many days schools have to be open? Or the other names of the Anglican church? Who on earth knows how many constituencies there are? What a load of bollocks. It reveals - if we didn't know already - that it was simply introduced for political reasons to appease the baying anti-immigrant mob.


i'd have thought parents (and indeed children and teachers) would care how many days schools have to be open. there are 650 constituencies in the uk, which is a basic fact of our democracy, just like there are 100 senators in the upper house of congress. as for the other names of the anglican church, i thought everyone knew it was the church of england but i'd be interested to know what other names it has.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> It's like they made those questions up for a laugh.


I think we could make up some far more relevant questions.  I'll start:

What do you understand by the phrase "mushy peas"?

A.  A delicious accompaniment to chips.
B.  A disease of the liver.
C.  An r 'n' b band.
D.  A common greeting.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2011)

No, parents know when the term dates are. Who the hell has sat and counted how many days that adds up to?

Also, there are 646 constituencies Pickman's. I happened to guess it right - you fail


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> I think we could make up some far more relevant questions. I'll start:
> 
> What do you understand by the phrase "mushy peas"?
> 
> ...


This needs it's own thread....you starting it or am I?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> No, parents know when the term dates are. Who the hell has sat and counted how many days that adds up to?
> 
> Also, there are 646 constituencies Pickman's. I happened to guess it right - you fail


you're (as so often) mistaken: 





> The UK is currently divided into 650 parliamentary constituencies, each of which is represented by one MP in the House of Commons. Although constituencies vary widely in area, the average number of voters in each constituency is approximately 68,175.
> *Constituency breakdown*
> 
> There are currently 533 constituencies in England, 59 in Scotland, 40 in Wales and 18 in Northern Ireland.


http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/constituencies/


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> It's like they made those questions up for a laugh. I didn't even understand the last one about council of europe.


there are two bodies, the council of europe and the council of the european union. the latter runs the eu the former doesn't.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're (as so often) mistaken:
> http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/constituencies/


It's no comfort being right if you fail to get citizenship because of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> It's no comfort being right if you fail to get citizenship because of it


you'll note there was no 650 option on that test. so i went for 646 as the nearest alternative. fwiw, i passed.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> This needs it's own thread....you starting it or am I?


You can have the honour.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> fwiw, i passed.


I think you just failed at being British


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there are two bodies, the council of europe and the council of the european union. the latter runs the eu the former doesn't.


I'm sorry I think I nodded off before getting to the end of that sentence. Anything to do with European union/whatever has that effect on me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> I'm sorry I think I nodded off before getting to the end of that sentence. Anything to do with European union/whatever has that effect on me.


there were two sentences there. both short.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2011)

isvicthere? said:


> Anyone who says "gotten" should be immediately deported.



I heard a BBC reporter today saying "hunkering down"


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2011)

what was your score, pickman's?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2011)

20/24


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> 20/24


the only true brit so far!


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> the only true brit so far!


Quite the contrary. It is simply not British to have a knowledge of obscure trivia with a slightly nationalistic bent. I have a theory that anyone who can pass the test is either an immigrant or a communist infiltrator from foreignland. Which is it Pickmans?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Quite the contrary.


i was being sarcastic


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 28, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> the only true brit so far!


I thought this was because he said the score as 20/24 instead of as a percentage.


----------



## Pinette (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> My friends mum doesn't really speak any English and she's been here for 40 years at least. It can't be ideal for her, having to take someone with her if she ever has to deal with anything official. However, she's worked all the time she's been in this country and paid taxes, so I think any idea that she shouldn't live here totally wrong, obviously. I don't think there should be a test or anything.


I find it really incomprehensible that someone who has lived in a country for 40 years can't speak the language, particularly as she has worked for the duration of her time here.  I can't understand this. (Sorry, Angel, I am not being rude - it's just 40 years is a long, long time)


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2011)

Pinette said:


> I find it really incomprehensible that someone who has lived in a country for 40 years can't speak the language, particularly as she has worked for the duration of her time here. I can't understand this. (Sorry, Angel, I am not being rude - it's just 40 years is a long, long time)


Yes but she worked in an all Asian factory/ workshop. It can easily happen.


----------



## Pinette (Aug 28, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Yes but she worked in an all Asian factory/ workshop. It can easily happen.


OK. Sorry.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 28, 2011)

Dunno what the pass rate is for that test. I got 79%. Do I get deported or not?
Anyway, my experience of immigrants that don't speak English is that it's those who are older and find acquiring a new language very hard. Their kids speak English no problem and contribute even more to this country than their parents did (although in my experience all immigrants work bloody hard and this country would collapse without them).


----------



## boohoo (Aug 28, 2011)

I got 54%


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Dunno what the pass rate is for that test. I got 79%. Do I get deported or not?
> Anyway, my experience of immigrants that don't speak English is that it's those who are older and find acquiring a new language very hard. Their kids speak English no problem and contribute even more to this country than their parents did (although in my experience all immigrants work bloody hard and this country would collapse without them).


 
1% short Mrs Magpie. Off to siberia you go


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> 1% short Mrs Magpie. Off to siberia you go


My Ancestral Homeland! Well the whole of Russia was cos my lot were Russky aristos, innit.


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## Yossarian (Aug 28, 2011)

Pinette said:


> I find it really incomprehensible that someone who has lived in a country for 40 years can't speak the language, particularly as she has worked for the duration of her time here. I can't understand this. (Sorry, Angel, I am not being rude - it's just 40 years is a long, long time)



I don't find it that surprising - here in Hong Kong, I've met dozens and dozens of Westerners, mainly British, who have been here for 20 or 30 years and can't string a sentence together in Cantonese. I've met a few who can't count higher than ten.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 28, 2011)

Actually my not passing says that it's a 'Set 'em up to fail' test innit? I set pub quizzes and didn't come up to scratch.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Dunno what the pass rate is for that test.


75%.  It says so at the start; you get 5% knocked off for not noticing...


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## Maidmarian (Aug 28, 2011)

I got 88%------ but I taught that sort of stuff for 35 yrs.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> I got 88%------ but I taught that sort of stuff for 35 yrs.


Some are wrong, though: there are 650 constituencies.  This wasn't an option.

And, this:



> Many job applications will require a covering letter and
> 
> a document showing proof of identity
> your National Insurance number
> ...


What was the right answer?  The only one I have never been asked for at application stage is my NI number; that comes once you've been offered the job.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> Some are wrong, though: there are 650 constituencies. This wasn't an option.
> 
> And, this:
> 
> What was the right answer? The only one I have never been asked for at application stage is my NI number; that comes once you've been offered the job.



CV.

But the questions are mad AND innaccurate.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> CV.


That's what I opted for, but I've also been asked for proof of ID and for a photograph.  So those should also be correct.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> That's what I opted for, but I've also been asked for proof of ID and for a photograph. So those should also be correct.


 
Yes danny , but that's only YOU it happens to ----- looking all dodgey & Scottish.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Yes danny , but that's only YOU it happens to ----- looking all dodgey & Scottish.


I also get my prescriptions free, despite being neither a child nor a pensioner.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 28, 2011)

I know Mad innit ?


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## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2011)

No, it's sane.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 28, 2011)

Heh,


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## Yossarian (Aug 28, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> What was the right answer? The only one I have never been asked for at application stage is my NI number; that comes once you've been offered the job.



A lot of the questions are silly but that one looks like it was designed to trip people up: Immigrants are a lot likelier than other people to be asked for NI numbers, proof of identity etc. when applying for jobs. The government is telling employers that they can be heavily fined if they employ illegal immigrants and telling would-be citizens that they're wrong when they say many job applications ask for proof of identity.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 29, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> I just type fast- when I write to my best friend its 100% English



It would be nice if you paid us the same respect especially if you want a debate.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 29, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> It would be nice if you paid us the same respect especially if you want a debate.


Especially if the debate you want is about poor English causing bigotry.


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 29, 2011)

> You have failed the practice citizenship test.
> 
> Questions answered correctly: 11 out of 24 (46%)
> 
> Time taken: 04 minutes 55 seconds



There is a book you are supposed to read with all the answers to those daft questions in it. It's a bit like the driving theory test I guess. Just doing it cold you have little chance, unless you're some kind of citizenship expert.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> Especially if the debate you want is about poor English causing bigotry.


Indeed, the poor are blamed for so much


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed, the poor are blamed for so much


^ an example of the poor english danny was talking about.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> ^ an example of the poor english danny was talking about.


Apologies for "poor" punctuation.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Apologies for "poor" punctuation.


no, it's got nothing to do with your punctuation and everything to do with your comprehension. when danny said 'especially if the debate you want is about poor english causing bigotry' it's clear he meant people's language skills. you clearly didn't understand this, leading to me saying that your post was an example of the poor english danny was talking about. out of curiosity, why did you think i was having a pop at your punctuation? where did you think you'd gone wrong?


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## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2011)

Colin instead of semi-colin?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Colin instead of semi-colin?


that is pisspoor. it's obvious you don't know what a colon or a semi-colon are.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2011)

piss-poor, surely


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2011)

piss poor, piss-poor or pisspoor - in any case i hope you know what i mean.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2011)

I certainly do.


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## phildwyer (Aug 29, 2011)

Pinette said:


> I find it really incomprehensible that someone who has lived in a country for 40 years can't speak the language, particularly as she has worked for the duration of her time here. I can't understand this. (Sorry, Angel, I am not being rude - it's just 40 years is a long, long time)



I can see how it would happen.  I've lived in Turkey and Mexico for much of the last three years, and I don't know much Turkish or Spanish.  Everyone I know speaks English, so there's no pressing need to learn.


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## Pinette (Aug 29, 2011)

phildwyer said:


> I can see how it would happen. I've lived in Turkey and Mexico for much of the last three years, and I don't know much Turkish or Spanish. Everyone I know speaks English, so there's no pressing need to learn.


But didn't it frustrate you when you couldn't communicate with normal people like shopkeepers, neighbours etc.,? I had a baby in a German speaking canton of Switzerland and had to quickly pick up a bit of the language at least.  Then 6 years later had another child in French and did very well with that. I can't not speak to people, it drives me mad. Can't stand it.


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2011)

In south of Spain there's  the tens of thousands of the english people who don't speak a dicky bird of Castellano. If the proficiency in the Spanish were required as a condition for the permanent residence they would all have to leave. Imagine on returning to Britain a scenario where they had to take the english proficiency test, too, to get the back in.

It's be a right palarvour....


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 30, 2011)

Anudder Oik said:


> In south of Spain there's the tens of thousands of the english people who don't speak a dicky bird of Castellano. If the proficiency in the Spanish were required as a condition for the permanent residence they would all have to leave. Imagine on returning to Britain a scenario where they had to take the english proficiency test, too, to get the back in.
> 
> It's be a right palarvour....



I think the Spanish should introduce the law as an April Fool's joke. Do they do April fool's over there? Or is it just the French?


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> I think the Spanish should introduce the law as an April Fool's joke. Do they do April fool's over there? Or is it just the French?



They have el Dia de los Santos Inocentes around Christmas time.

But, as I posted previously - it's a bit of a myth about all of these expats who don't speak Spanish. The vast majority do. Obviously, in English communities they speak English to each other. Outside of that, most make the effort to learn Spanish. Those who don't usually end up going back to the UK.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> They have el Dia de los Santos Inocentes around Christmas time.
> 
> But, as I posted previously -* it's a bit of a myth about all of these expats who don't speak Spanish. The vast majority do.* Obviously, in English communities they speak English to each other. Outside of that, most make the effort to learn Spanish. Those who don't usually end up going back to the UK.



I lived in Spain for a few years and the vast majority dont, the british are stereotyped for it. I've met an english couple attempting to run a business in Spain without spanish.

Its actively encouraged to learn, and you get on a lot better in Spain speaking very shit Spanish than speaking good english. The reason the british expats dont speak spanish is that they create a reworking of Britain in the sun and are generally refusing to integrate.


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## stuff_it (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> I lived in Spain for a few years and the vast majority dont, the british are stereotyped for it. I've met an english couple attempting to run a business in Spain without spanish.
> 
> Its actively encouraged to learn, in general the Spanish will help you along as you are fucking up when starting to learn.




So they won't help you if you are any good at it?

Eh?


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> So they won't help you if you are any good at it?
> 
> Eh?



No, just that they are friendly and encourage learning it to those that, dont speak it.


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## stuff_it (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> No, just that they are friendly and encourage learning it to those that, dont speak it.


'so long as you are fucking up when you start'....


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> I lived in Spain for a few years and the vast majority dont, the british are stereotyped for it. I've met an english couple attempting to run a business in Spain without spanish.
> 
> Its actively encouraged to learn, in general the Spanish will help you along as you are fucking up when starting to learn.



In the 6 years, or so I have lived in Southern Spain this hasn't been my experience. I have probably met more than a Thousand UK expats here, and only come across a couple of people who haven't bothered learning Spanish. One was here on a short term plan restoring a house to sell - he's back in the UK. The other was a woman with very limited English skills and she just gave up. However, I was told she's still living in Spain happily, so perhaps she's getting there now. I took me 4 years before I was confident enough to socialise in Spanish speaking circles. I'm finding German much easier to pick-up, but I had the basics already.

The free Spanish classes here are a social hub for newly arriving expats. The vast majority have fun learning the lingo.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> 'so long as you are fucking up when you start'....



Edited the post, to clear up that gibberish, i haven't had my morning coffee yet


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> In the 6 years, or so I have lived in Southern Spain this hasn't been my experience. I have probably met more than a Thousand UK expats here, and only come across a couple of people who haven't bothered learning Spanish. One was here on a short term plan restoring a house to sell - he's back in the UK. The other was a woman with very limited English skills and she just gave up. However, I was told she's still living in Spain happily, so perhaps she's getting there now. I took me 4 years before I was confident enough to socialise in Spanish speaking circles. I'm finding German much easier to pick-up, but I had the basics already.
> 
> The free Spanish classes here are a social hub for newly arriving expats. The vast majority have fun learning the lingo.



Where is Spain are you, its going to be a worse problem in the more built up traditional expat areas.


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> ...the british are stereotyped for it...



Brits are stereotyped for this everywhere. 'This' being the inability to learn a new language. As I posted earlier in the thread: this is due to our education, or lack of. Few Brits are taught the basic rules of grammar, syntax, etc of their own language, nevermind a second language. Most Europeans grow up learning at least Two languages. This makes it far easier to understand the 'mechanics' of language when it comes to learning a new language.

But, it is a stereotype. Just because it takes many Brits longer to learn doesn't mean they're stupid, or lazy, or ignorant.


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## stuff_it (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Brits are stereotyped for this everywhere. 'This' being the inability to learn a new language. As I posted earlier in the thread: this is due to our education, or lack of. Few Brits are taught the basic rules of grammar, syntax, etc of their own language, nevermind a second language. Most Europeans grow up learning at least Two languages. This makes it far easier to understand the 'mechanics' of language when it comes to learning a new language.
> 
> But, it is a stereotype. Just because it takes many Brits longer to learn doesn't mean they're stupid, or lazy, or ignorant.


I have to say that being an uber-geek and being in the 'Latin Club' at my comp has helped no end with Euro languages.


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> Where is Spain are you, its going to be a worse problem in the more built up traditional expat areas.



I live in Granada, but I'm very familiar with expat communities on the coast. There are people who fence off their villas and survive on weekly shopping trips to Lidl whilst only using English run bars, but that is very definitley the minority. Personally, I think it's their right to choose to live that way, and not have to learn Spanish. I have no problem with immigrants in the UK not learning English - it puts themselves at a disadvantage. It's not a problem for anyone else.

Check a few expat forums and see if you can find anyone who isn't learning Spanish.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> But, it is a stereotype. Just because it takes many Brits longer to learn doesn't mean they're stupid, or lazy, or ignorant.



I'm not suggesting that for a moment, but what does piss me off, is the lack of motivation demonstrated by British ex pats to learn the language.


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## JHE (Aug 30, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> Getting British citizenship now requires proficiency in English language.



No, it doesn't - very far from it.

For naturalisation (and indeed before that for indefinite leave to remain) the language requirement is quite low.  If I remember correctly, the requirement is Entry Level 3 (E3) speaking and listening skills and this requirement can be waived sometimes.

To confuse E3 speaking and listening with proficiency is like  confusing a toddlers' kickabout with Barcelona FC.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> I live in Granada, but I'm very familiar with expat communities on the coast. There are people who fence off their villas and survive on weekly shopping trips to Lidl whilst only using English run bars, but that is very definitley the minority. Personally, I think it's their right to choose to live that way, and not have to learn Spanish. I have no problem with immigrants in the UK not learning English - it puts themselves at a disadvantage. It's not a problem for anyone else.
> 
> Check a few expat forums and see if you can find anyone who isn't learning Spanish.



My perception has been in the gated communities that drink in the red lion and eat sunday roasts in 35c heat are the majority in some areas.


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> My perception has been in the gated communities that drink in the red lion and eat sunday roasts in 35c heat are the majority in some areas.



They may well like to continue practicing their British way of life, but that doesn't mean they're not learning Spanish, or not enjoying Spanish culture also.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> They may well like to continue practicing their British way of life, but that doesn't mean they're not learning Spanish, or not enjoying Spanish culture also.



Yeah but even with all that they still dont attempt to integrate.


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> Yeah but even with all that they still dont attempt to integrate.



Depends what you mean by integrate. In the areas you refer to the 'locals' (native Spanish) are the minority. The whole area has been developed at a rapid rate to accomodate British, German and Scandinavian expats mostly (residential, as opposed to holiday developments). The common language in these communities is English. The culture is very much Northern European with Spanish sunshine. There has never been a reason to integrate into everyday, traditional Spanish life because it was never really preserved. You don't have to go far to find it if you want it, but if it isn't there to integrate into???


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## boohoo (Aug 30, 2011)

To sum this thread up, amongst the nations across the world, there will always be people who move to a new country who choose not to learn the language or integrate  whether that be Brits in the costa del sol or foreigners coming over to the UK and remaining in a community which speaks their native language.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Depends what you mean by integrate. In the areas you refer to the 'locals' (native Spanish) are the minority. The whole area has been developed at a rapid rate to accomodate British, German and Scandinavian expats mostly (residential, as opposed to holiday developments). The common language in these communities is English. The culture is very much Northern European with Spanish sunshine. There has never been a reason to integrate into everyday, traditional Spanish life because it was never really preserved. You don't have to go far to find it if you want it, but if it isn't there to integrate into???



I'm talking about really basic stuff like registering with the local council. When I lived in Valencia I saw a lot of reports about the issues relating to expats not registering themselves as residents and essentially shunning any offical interaction. It lead to huge issues around the provisioning of local services.

My bias comes from having living in a few different countries I've always made a big effort to learn the language if required and adapt to that countrie's way of life. It irrationally irritates me when others refuse to do so.


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## Stanley Edwards (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> I'm talking about really basic stuff like registering with the local council...



The only legal requirement to do this is if you intend to stay for more than 3 months. Most people take that as meaning 'stay for 3 months, if things work register then'. That's fair enough I think.

I registered on day 1 because I knew I had already committed to 6 months at least even though I wasn't 100% sure about staying longer. I know many people living 'outside of the system' who don't bother registering unless they need to open a bank account (officially a legal requirement, but Spain can still be quite flexible on these things if you have the cash). That doesn't annoy me as much as people who don't register, but still expect to make full use of local services.

Traditionally, there is the Costa del Crime element. That still exists in so much as minor criminals live in the area, or more often a bit farther inland where it's cheaper. They are a minority, but I'll concede they most definitley exist and abuse the Spanish way of life. There are some horrible communities north of Almeria. Many people knowingly bought houses illegally. There are many illegal builds given the go ahead by corrupt mayors with family connections to construction companies. The Junta now have the dilema of whether to issue demolition orders, or turn a blind eye for the sake of protecting new economies.

Drifting off subject now, but it's interesting.


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## grit (Aug 30, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> _That doesn't annoy me as much as people who don't register, but still expect to make full use of local services._
> 
> Traditionally, there is the Costa del Crime element. That still exists in so much as minor criminals live in the area, or more often a bit farther inland where it's cheaper. They are a minority, but I'll concede they most definitley exist and abuse the Spanish way of life. There are some horrible communities north of Almeria. Many people knowingly bought houses illegally. There are many illegal builds given the go ahead by corrupt mayors with family connections to construction companies. The Junta now have the dilema of whether to issue demolition orders, or turn a blind eye for the sake of protecting new economies.
> 
> Drifting off subject now, but it's interesting.



This is the exact mentality that I'm talking about, and while yourexperienced have been different, it was the default position for most of the british ex pats I met. Very few of them bothered to do it after the 3 month requirement ends. Then would then typically complain about the amount of time it took to get things done in Spain


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2011)

My experience in Barcelona has been that the majority of brits living there (Something like 30,000) have learned spanish quickly and are attracted to the culture and want spanish friends. They shun the idea of living in a ghetto and hanging out with other english. I get the impression that on the south coast the communities of english there don't need to learn spanish and are far from integrating. They seem to be obsessed with satalite TV and where they can get Pot Noodle. I can understand the former but the latter is madness when you consider how healthy the meditarranean diet is.

In the last 8 years Barcelona has attracted another type of brit. A vile type that doesn't learn spanish and snorts coke all day. Something like nearly 3 to 4 hundred Boiler rooms were set up (Investment fraud) which attracted hundreds of cunts. You would bump into them all over the shop, pissed up and causing trouble. Suppose they were temporary though...People who don't learn the language are basically in the country for the wrong reason and are open to criticism.

For me integration means speaking the language and living with the people, knowing and participating in the culture and traditions, knowing the details, the moods, the history, gastronomy, geography etc..

I believe that the more immigrants there are in an area, the more difficult integration with the locals becomes.

Look at Ealing for example. You can't find an english person to practice english with.


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## Poo Flakes (Aug 30, 2011)

Although, I do not give a shit. The everyone-speaks-English-brigade is actually really good for speakers of another language.  Since we expect people not just to learn English, but speak it, we tend to speak slower, louder, and are more forgiving of grammatical mistakes.

The situation is slightly different in other countries, particularly those where the stresses within particular words coupled with the wrong conjugation of a verb can render sentences completely meaningless to native speakers.

Having said that, I still hate "everyone speaks English" argument against the teaching/learning of foreign languages.


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## twentythreedom (Aug 30, 2011)

Fuck me, 67% - fail. What a load of shit, those questions are ridiculous!


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## CyberRose (Aug 30, 2011)

I think if you looked at non-English speakers and counted how many can speak a foreign language that _wasn't English, _British people might not be too far behind in language skills. If for whatever reason Chinese or Russian had become the dominant language in business and popular culture we'd have learned those languages to the same extent everyone else has learned English. I don't think it's necessarily as a necessity but more of an absolute bombardment of English in films or music that has made it such a well learned language.

That said, I'm glad there's loads of people in this country who can't speak English, because if they were all forced to learn English they'd take all our jobs, then we'd still have something to moan about...


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## Pinette (Aug 30, 2011)

grit said:


> I'm talking about really basic stuff like registering with the local council. When I lived in Valencia I saw a lot of reports about the issues relating to expats not registering themselves as residents and essentially shunning any offical interaction. It lead to huge issues around the provisioning of local services.
> 
> My bias comes from having living in a few different countries I've always made a big effort to learn the language if required and adapt to that countrie's way of life. It irrationally irritates me when others refuse to do so.


Yes. Me too. I couldn't *not* speak the language. I have to do it, or try to do it. I've only been to Spain once, for just a few days and I wanted to punch myself in the face for not being able to say 'sorry' when one of my children knocked over his glass of milk at a restaurant. The level of frustration is such that it galvanizes me into action. ( I wish I could say that I had since learned Spanish, but that would be a lie.)


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2011)

Pinette said:


> Yes. Me too. I couldn't *not* speak the language. I have to do it, or try to do it. I've only been to Spain once, for just a few days and I wanted to punch myself in the face for not being able to say 'sorry' when one of my children knocked over his glass of milk at a restaurant. The level of frustration is such that it galvanizes me into action. ( I wish I could say that I had since learned Spanish, but that would be a lie.)



Next time in Spain and milk gets spilt use this;

_"Me cago en la leche, coño"_

Translated literally it says, _"I Shit in the milk",_ but a real translation would be something like "Fuckin hell or that's fuckin torn it", which is what any decent Spaniard would say in such circumstances.


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