# Anti-fascist protest at the ballet tomorrow (Fri 12 Jan)



## Mr T (Jan 11, 2007)

Called by UAF against this ballerina Simone Clarke:

No to Fascism and Racism at the Ballet 
Unite Against Fascism Demonstration 
London Coliseum
At the performance of Giselle 
Friday 12th January, 12 noon 
St Martin's Lane, London, WC2N 4ES 

http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=61213



> _We are calling on all those who have an appreciation for the arts, music, and dance to demand that the promotion of racist and fascist politics are incompatible with a leading arts institution such as the English National Ballet, to speak out against the association of artists with the BNP, and that Simone Clarke should be removed from her position_



I'm sure some on her will wish to carry on the debate from this thread - but when it comes down to it shes used her position at the ENB to get a sympathetic interview in the Daily Mail promoting the BNP, while in a publicly funded role.  Hope to see you there.


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## JHE (Jan 11, 2007)

> The BNP is exploiting Simone Clarke's membership in order to promote and prettify their extreme right wing politics.



Really?  I didn't know the BNP ran the Guardian.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Really?  I didn't know the BNP ran the Guardian.



Easy target though JHE, a certain win. Which will be a change for the SWP which has never won anything before.


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## Dubversion (Jan 11, 2007)

this is bollocks.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 12, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> this is bollocks.



Agreed.  Another carefully aimed shot at UAF's own feet.  This is the sort of thing that alienates the white working classes from the left (funny how the swappies and thier front orgs like UAF are never there when services are being cut from WWC areas or when pensioners are being frozen and starved in their own homes but they are always there for publicity stunts like this) and also it gives the BNP more publicity than if people had just shrugged thier shoulders and said: 'OK its a posh vacuaous ballet dancer who doesn't think before putting pen to paper' and just ignored her.  

FFS its not as if David Irving had been given a job teaching in a Tower Hamlets primary school is it.


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## Blagsta (Jan 12, 2007)

Completely counterpoductive, not to mention dangerous.  What if it sets a precedent for people being fired for having far left or anarchist views?


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 12, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Completely counterpoductive, not to mention dangerous.  What if it sets a precedent for people being fired for having far left or anarchist views?



Spot on.  Will this end up with counter protests with boneheads turning up to protest against the 'commies' working in various areas.

UAF protest manual excerpt:

'pick up shotgun, aim carefully at feet and fire.  You can then hop up and down and declare a glorious victory against facsism'


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## e19896 (Jan 12, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Completely counterproductive, not to mention dangerous.  What if it sets a precedent for people being fired for having far left or anarchist views?



Very much agree with blagsta see http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2006/08/348687.html and this thug has now taken another job doing the same work Sheffield Antifa have spoken about this at length where do we goto from here now this being an open board not willing to disclose that conversation.

However i feel it is very counterproductive and just feeds the ego of this scum even more (at the risk of publicising their material, watch this 
the vanguard of the left feeding the egos of the far right, is my feelings)

Blagsta raises a very serious question here what if this sets a precedent for those having left wing views, are we opening the doors of our own repression by taking such action and you know what, i feel we are.

This said how do we deal with the rise of the far right? one way is through education that means we get onto the streets do the door knocking and pushing leaflets through doors with a clear defined understanding of what The BNP are.

We do this with no hidden agendas, no promotion of our own egos but just simply one of getting an understanding of why the BNP are wrong. this is how we undermine them and take away their confidence, once this is done there will be no need for them to be doing the work they are doing because they will have nothing to promote.

Yes i have promoted the demo but have reached this thought following the meeting of Sheffield Antifa, and the link to You Tube is not there to promote but to show what we are dealing with if the mods decide it to be wrong, then i'll remove.


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## mk12 (Jan 12, 2007)

How will her perfomance of ballet be promoting her political views


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## darren redparty (Jan 12, 2007)

she only piroettes to the right


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## JHE (Jan 12, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Completely counterpoductive, not to mention dangerous.  What if it sets a precedent for people being fired for having far left or anarchist views?



Quite!  (Fuck me.  It's not often I thoroughly approve of a Blagsta post.)


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## JHE (Jan 12, 2007)

Anyway, Mr T, how did it go?  Have you persuaded her employers to sack the Naaartsee ballerina?


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## Mr T (Jan 13, 2007)

The protest was small but noisy in the half hour or so I was there on my lunch break, it seems to have got a huge amount of press coverage 

As I said in the OP, for me this isn't an issue that her politics should necessarily preclude her from her job, but the fact that since her membership of the BNP was revealed, she gave an interview in the Daily Mail about why shes in the BNP etc.  That interview wouldn't have happened if she wasn't in her position at the ballet, so therefore she has used her publicly funded/subsidised position to promote the BNP, and should be sacked for it.  Imagine if, say, the Director-General of the BBC, or Comissioner of Transport for London or some other high-profile public sector figure was exposed as a member of this fascist org and used their position to get publicity for the BNP - they would be sacked instantly, and quite rightly.  Let people hold whatever political views they want, but when people whos jobs are funded with taxpayers money use their position to promote a party of racists and fascists its completely out of order.

As for persuading the employers - if I were a higher up in the ENB or the Arts Council, I'd be worried that people are asking why on earth does ballet get subsidised by £6.5m pa, when the audience are usually very wealthy - after all the government doesn't subsidise football tickets does it?  E2A: Although given the enormous media coverage of the protest, maybe I'm wrong and ballet is a favorite form of entertainment for loads of people, and everyones always interested in what goes on at the ENB


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

Mr T said:
			
		

> but the fact that since her membership of the BNP was revealed, she gave an interview in the Daily Mail about why shes in the BNP etc.  That interview wouldn't have happened if she wasn't in her position at the ballet,



so actually, if the press hadn't got hold of it and decided to make a big deal out of it, she wouldn't have got to spout her bollocks in the press.

So actually, it's not as simple as you make out, is it?


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

No, but it's not the simple the other way around either.

The point Blagsta and JHE make - there was always the same problem with No Platform, wasn't there? If you stripped racists or fascists having a platform, didn't they have the right to free speech and couldn't the same prohibition be made against leftwing groups and speakers? And if you demonstrated against (say) John Carlile, as I remember doing in 1986, then you were accused of giving them publicity. Well, there was that risk, of course, but there was also the opposite point that that publicity might actually expose what Carlile was and what he supported.

It _might_ be counterproductive: but it's not so straightforward as that.


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

but this ballerina isn't a party ideologue, isn't someone habitually being given a public mouthpiece, isn't a convincing representative for her views (which, even by the standards of the BNP, are half-baked).. She's just an idiot who happens to dance for a living. And I do think the public funding aspect is a red herring


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## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> No, but it's not the simple the other way around either.
> 
> The point Blagsta and JHE make - there was always the same problem with No Platform, wasn't there? If you stripped racists or fascists having a platform, didn't they have the right to free speech and couldn't the same prohibition be made against leftwing groups and speakers? And if you demonstrated against (say) John Carlile, as I remember doing in 1986, then you were accused of giving them publicity. Well, there was that risk, of course, but there was also the opposite point that that publicity might actually expose what Carlile was and what he supported.
> 
> It _might_ be counterproductive: but it's not so straightforward as that.



A ballet is not a platform for political beliefs.  If she was speaking at a BNP rally, then by all means go and demonstrate.  But she was dancing in a ballet...


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

I take that point, but that was not the point with which I was taking issue!


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

There's a comparison to be made with Buster Mottram, against whom there were demonstrations about thrity years ago because he was a member of the National Front. There were justified - rightly, I think - on the grounds that he was a prominent Nazi. It doesn't necesarily follow that the same applies here, but it's a comparison worth making - if people are prominent and are able, for that reason, to get space for Nazi views.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

So what did she say in the DM?


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> There's a comparison to be made with Buster Mottram, against whom there were demonstrations about thrity years ago because he was a member of the National Front. There were justified - rightly, I think - on the grounds that he was a prominent Nazi. It doesn't necesarily follow that the same applies here, but it's a comparison worth making - if people are prominent and are able, for that reason, to get space for Nazi views.



It's a valid comparison, but I think the difference between Mottram and this dancer's standing, degree of outspokenness etc IS the crucial distinction. If she hadn't been exposed, I doubt she would ever have spoken out.

I just think it's dangerous to get into some sort of absolutist position where anyone in the BNP is a target for demos and the like if they're not doing anything active.

If she's out leafletting or canvassing support, she's fair game for opposition. But unless she's found a way of performing a pirouette which somehow conveys her fuckwitted views on immigration (remember who her partner is  ) then I think this is an over-reaction and will further boost the BNP's pathetic victimisation claims (although as you've said, the whole No Platform issue is a very thorny one for this and other reasons)>


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

I think bad call, for reasons given by others in thread about being hassled for views when at work not expressing views - bad precedent - and also poor people who'd paid £££ to watch Giselle and had their performance spoiled.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> It's a valid comparison, but I think the difference between Mottram and this dancer's standing, degree of outspokenness etc IS the crucial distinction.


And I'm inclined to agree.


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

BK - while I agree with your conclusion i actually disagree with your reasons.. 




			
				Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> I think bad call, for reasons given by others in thread about being hassled for views when at work not expressing views - bad precedent -



not at all. If someone was outspoken / active etc outside their workplace, I wouldn't reject 'hassling' them in their workplace. It depends on who it is and to some extent where they work. It's even better when it comes from the workmates..




			
				Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> and also poor people who'd paid £££ to watch Giselle and had their performance spoiled.



Not sure that worries me in any other regard except that if they're pissed off about having the performance spoiled and see the reason as trivial, it would be grist to the BNP's mill.


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## smokedout (Jan 13, 2007)

> Completely counterpoductive, not to mention dangerous. What if it sets a precedent for people being fired for having far left or anarchist views?



not sure what i think about this

but i think that there is a good chance that if someone running a publicly funded organisation, say a drugs charity, was outed as an anarchist, and then on the back of the publicity gave a newspaper aninterview to justify their beliefs then its quite likely that theyd be fired


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

Paddick, anyone?


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## smokedout (Jan 13, 2007)

he didnt get fired for that though, though i reckon that was the beginning of his downfall

there was no way he was ever gonna keep his position after some of the things he said on here that were published


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

i wasn't being entirely serious.. the  was a clue


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> - bad precedent - and also poor people who'd paid £££ to watch Giselle and had their performance spoiled.



How many poor people go to the ballet?


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Well, I went to the opera in London when I was on fuck all.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Well, I went to the opera in London when I was on fuck all.



What uni did you go to again?


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Relevance of question?


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Relevance of question?



If you really wanted money I'm sure it could be found.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Jolly good. From whom should I find it, do you think?


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Jolly good. From whom should I find it, do you think?



Some of your old muckers, I'm sure they must have a job somewhere doing something dastardly.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Are you achieving anything here other than showing how stupid you are? How much money do you imagine I have? Do you think I could touch somebody I knew twenty years ago for a ballet ticket, or that if I could, I wouldn't touch them for something more important?

You absolute idiot.


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## exosculate (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm an advocate for free speech regardless, because otherwise the gag can be turned on anyone.

This demo is ridiculous, you can't make stuff like this up.

What is it likely to achieve?

What harm could it potentially do?


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Some of your old muckers, I'm sure they must have a job somewhere doing something dastardly.



don't be a twat.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Are you achieving anything here other than showing how stupid you are?



Yes, I'm winding you up.




> How much money do you imagine I have?



Thruppence ha'penny




> Do you think I could touch somebody I knew twenty years ago for a ballet ticket, or that if I could, I wouldn't touch them for something more important?



Hand jobs for ballet tickets? Dear me ((((donna))))  




> You absolute idiot.



What do you expect from common muck babe?


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

exosculate said:
			
		

> I'm an advocate for free speech regardless, because otherwise the gag can be turned on anyone.
> 
> This demo is ridiculous, you can't make stuff like this up.
> 
> ...



hear hear


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## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> not sure what i think about this
> 
> but i think that there is a good chance that if someone running a publicly funded organisation, say a drugs charity, was outed as an anarchist, and then on the back of the publicity gave a newspaper aninterview to justify their beliefs then its quite likely that theyd be fired



Not a valid comparison.  Simone whatserface is not running a publicly funded organisation.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> What do you expect from common muck babe?


Common courtesy.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 13, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> David Irving had been given a job teaching in a Tower Hamlets primary school.




This is fucking disgraceful!!!


Actually on topic, who cares, are people not allowed to have political beliefs now? I may not agree with them, but she has every right to hold those beliefs no matter what her job (although one would hope she wasn't working as Trevor Phillips PA or something), fuck me, if we only could work places after we had been vetted i would not be working where i am now.
Actually I find it more disturbing that someone has deemed it important enough to have demo about it.

Who's the real fucking facists here?


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> but she has every right to hold those beliefs no matter what her job (although one would hope she wasn't working as Trevor Phillips PA or something)


1. I think your own example demonstrates that some jobs are not compatible with the holding of certain political beliefs.

2. The quarrel is with someone using the profile afforded by their job to  propound certain beliefs. This too, may not be acceptable.


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## Mr T (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> so actually, if the press hadn't got hold of it and decided to make a big deal out of it, she wouldn't have got to spout her bollocks in the press.
> 
> So actually, it's not as simple as you make out, is it?



No, but then it wasn't UAF that went undercover for the Guardian...




> Richard Barnbrook in today's Guardian
> *Mr Barnbrook, returning to the subject of Clarke, said she had his full backing and that he did not object to her relationship with Cuban-Chinese dancer Yat-Sen Chang. "She's not racist - she's going out with someone who is not of her own race," he said. But he said, he hoped the couple would not have children.
> 
> "I'm not opposed to mixed marriages but their children are washing out the identity of this country's indigenous people," he explained, quickly adding: "That's my view, it's not the party's view."
> *



I wonder what Ms Clarke will think of this 'support' from her party 

E2A: According to this she does have a kid with him.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 13, 2007)

Mr T said:
			
		

> No, but then it wasn't UAF that went undercover for the Guardian...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it's always hilarious when the racists talk about the indigenous people of England. Always makes me think, who the fuck is that then?


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> 1. I think your own example demonstrates that some jobs are not compatible with the holding of certain political beliefs.
> 
> 2. The quarrel is with someone using the profile afforded by their job to  propound certain beliefs. This too, may not be acceptable.



but her beliefs do not prevent her from ballet dancing.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm not sure that you grasp the point.


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> How many poor people go to the ballet?



Inverted snobbery.

Students, dance students, people who have saved up for tickets because they love dance, families for their Christmas-time treat...

Tickets start at a tenner same as many gigs.

Going to the ballet is a special occasion and most peopel can't afford to go much, tickets are hard to get hold of, and I don't think the protest will have done anything much aapart from spoil people's night and set a well dodgy precedent about harrassing people at work for their beliefs. Something which if done to a left wing activist would doubtless have half the board up in arms.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that you grasp the point.




I assure you that i do and whilst she may be utilising her position to sound of on her political views it's not as if she is in a position of responsibility where these views may contradict those of her role. 

To protest against this person is frankly ridiculous, let her spout off. She is entitled to hold these views and seeking to silence her by waving placards outside the ballet, or indeed seeking to silence anyone whose views you do not agree with is as equally odious.


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## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

A lot of liberal, civil libertatian nonnsense here. Harrassing fascists at work is a well used and very effective tactic against them- the issue here is that her job is in the public sector- and it is illegal to employ fascists in the public sector. She was instructed to reconce here views, failed to listen to what was being told to here, and will pay the coinsequences by never working in her career again

A good by- product of this will be to discourage others from joinig the BNP


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## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> She is entitled to hold these views and seeking to silence her by waving placards outside the ballet, or indeed seeking to silence anyone whose views you do not agree with is as equally odious.



No she isnt- she is a fascist who is not entitled to hold fascist views. You fail to grasp that she was instructed to leave the BNP , and failed to do so.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> She is entitled to hold these views


I don't think, in fact, that she's entitled to propound them.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> A lot of liberal, civil libertatian nonnsense here. Harrassing fascists at work is a well used and very effective tactic against them- the issue here is that her job is in the public sector- and it is illegal to employ fascists in the public sector. She was instructed to reconce here views, failed to listen to what was being told to here, and will pay the coinsequences by never working in her career again
> 
> A good by- product of this will be to discourage others from joinig the BNP



It is illegal to employ "fascists" in the public sector?  Since when?


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> A lot of liberal, civil libertatian nonnsense here. Harrassing fascists at work is a well used and very effective tactic against them- the issue here is that her job is in the public sector- and it is illegal to employ fascists in the public sector. She was instructed to reconce here views, failed to listen to what was being told to here, and will pay the coinsequences by never working in her career again
> 
> A good by- product of this will be to discourage others from joinig the BNP




Oh shut up


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## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> A lot of liberal, civil libertatian nonnsense here.



Where?  




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> and it is illegal to employ fascists in the public sector.



Is it?  Under what law?


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## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> No she isnt- she is a fascist who is not entitled to hold fascist views. You fail to grasp that she was instructed to leave the BNP , and failed to do so.



Its very doubtful that she's a fascist.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Its very doubtful that she's a fascist.



Why?


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Guardian on the subject, & here is her Mail on Sunday interview so you can read her confused ramblings for yourselves....




			
				Hate Mail on Sunday said:
			
		

> The BNP is certainly repellent, with its knee-jerk hatred of foreigners and history of organised thuggery, and there is something in the juxtaposition of dance pumps and bovver boots that many will find impossible to comprehend, particularly in the liberal world of the arts.
> 
> But Simone's explanation for why she decided to join the party last year - given here for the first time - cannot be simply brushed aside as a foolish error, let alone ignored.
> 
> The reason is summed up in one word: Immigration


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Anyway, McCarthyism.


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## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Why?



Do you have any evidence that she is?  From what I gather, she is anti-immigration and wants to take a tough stance on crime.  That does not make someone a fascist.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Not with you (BK, that is).


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

McCarthyism reference was re: stopping artists/performers from working because of political views, blah.


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## red_hippy (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Do you have any evidence that she is?  From what I gather, she is anti-immigration and wants to take a tough stance on crime.  That does not make someone a fascist.



Doesn't matter a toss, she's a member of a fascist organisation. If she's not a fascist and doesn't wanted to be labelled and treated as one then she should leave, simple as.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> McCarthyism reference was re: stopping artists/performers from working because of political views, blah.


Thing is, it's not, and the term shouldn't be used to easily. It could turn into it, yeah - but it's not.

Bear in mind that hard racists are people who will hurt and hinder other people from working, for their views and for their ethnic background. To some extent, there can be a choice between them. Leave the first set alone, on impeccable grounds and you leave the second on a limb.


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## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

red_hippy said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter a toss, she's a member of a fascist organisation.



Agreed, the BNP are fascist (or neo-fascist) at heart.




			
				red_hippy said:
			
		

> If she's not a fascist and doesn't wanted to be labelled and treated as one then she should leave, simple as.



Do you think that everyone who supports the BNP is a fascist?


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

I know it isn't full-on McCarthyism., and I said it to skirt round Godwin's law arguments, but it seems to me that she has already had full scale opprobrium and hopefully no-one will give the dimwit any more publicity, and she can get on with doing twirls and keeping quiet.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Do you have any evidence that she is?  From what I gather, she is anti-immigration and wants to take a tough stance on crime.  That does not make someone a fascist.



She's either desperately naive or pretending to be.

If you decide to join a fascist party how can you get upset if someone accuses you of being one?


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> I know it isn't full-on McCarthyism., and I said it to skirt round Godwin's law arguments, but it seems to me that she has already had full scale opprobrium and hopefully no-one will give the dimwit any more publicity, and she can get on with doing twirls and keeping quiet.


Yeah, maybe.

I was thinking that before I emigrated, I was working somewhere where a large proportion of the clientele were non-White (and non-Christian for that matter). Had we had a fascist working there I think I would very much had wanted them removed. This would, no doubt, have attracted the attention of the press, who would have shouted "McCarthyism", and no doubt many other people would have said "it's counterproductive", but it would have been right and necessary.

It's not the same situation of course but you can see my point.


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## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> She's either desperately naive or pretending to be.
> 
> If you decide to join a fascist party how can you get upset if someone accuses you of being one?




because the BNP are trying to reposition themselves as something other than a Fascist party, and if you're not the sharpest knife in the draw (which I think applies here) then you might believe them.


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

But everyone has mocked her as a dimmo, and I don't think she's dangerous. More publicity will just make her a martyr, and she doesn't deserve the status. And the BNP have got enough PR out of it as it is.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> But everyone has mocked her as a dimmo, and I don't think she's dangerous. More publicity will just make her a martyr, and she doesn't deserve the status.


No, I agree with you. But it's not McCarthyism. And let us suppose there are non-white people working around her, as there surely are. What do they feel, I wonder?


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

> She also says she has had little reaction from her ballet colleagues. "In the end nobody really said anything at work,' she says. "I think it's because there are a lot of foreign dancers who have probably never even heard of the BNP."




from Mail. Am googling to see what else comes up...


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## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> because the BNP are trying to reposition themselves as something other than a Fascist party, and if you're not the sharpest knife in the draw (which I think applies here) then you might believe them.



Where do you draw the line?

Many would argue being a fascist in the first place is an act of stupidity.


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## red_hippy (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Agreed, the BNP are fascist (or neo-fascist) at heart.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that everyone who supports the BNP is a fascist?



No, but I think there's an important difference between supporter and member. I wouldn't brand the growing number of people voting for the BNP as fascists, and I would regard somebody who voted for them as supporter. 

However, I think if somebody has not just voted for but joined the BNP then whether they regard themselves as a fascist or not, they're making an organised commitment to a fascist organisation, and that makes them a fascist as far as I'm concerned.


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## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Guardian



> Her conversion to the far right was prompted by watching the television news and then reading the BNP manifesto. "I am not too proud to say that a lot of it went over my head but some of the things they mentioned were the things I think about all the time, mainly mass immigration, crime and increased taxes. I paid my £25 there and then," she said.
> 
> She protested that it is "really silly" to point to her partner's non-English origins, adding: "It is not about removing foreigners. It's about border controls."
> 
> Nine of her 10 principal dancers at the ENB are immigrants and she suggested that this may have muted the internal response, adding: "There are a lot of foreign dancers who have probably never even heard of the BNP."


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

There's quite a long tradition of dozy arty people from the wealthy classes who support the fascists without ever really understanding the implications of any of it.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

She comes over as a very silly woman.


Fantastic dancer. Utter dimwit with zero political analysis other than skim reading the BNP website after getting in a rage over some immigration story on the news


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

> Nine of her 10 principal dancers at the ENB are immigrants



Which is possibly getting closer to the real causes of her anger.

Maybe she feels the foreign dancers are frustrating her career.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Hardly, she's starring as Giselle.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Do you "star" in a ballet?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Yes.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 13, 2007)

All this shit for a poxy ballet dancer...


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Tsk.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

agricola said:
			
		

> It is illegal to employ "fascists" in the public sector?  Since when?



since 2000, when public sector organisations had a duty to promote good race relations. she can`t do this as a fascist- therefore cant work for a publically funded organisation


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> Hardly, she's starring as Giselle.



The more you have the greedier you are IMO.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Do you have any evidence that she is?  From what I gather, she is anti-immigration and wants to take a tough stance on crime.  That does not make someone a fascist.



She is a BNP member, thereefore is a fascist.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> McCarthyism reference was re: stopping artists/performers from working because of political views, blah.



Good. The intention is to put her in the dole for her political views by harrassing her at work- is that clear enough?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Well not really, Jim, no, not the way you put it.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Good. The intention is to put her in the dole for her political views by harrassing her at work- is that clear enough?



Hmm, dont you think this strategy could be counterproductive?  it was the protestors that were booed at the ballet yesterday, not the BNP Ballerina.

Portraying her as a victim of McCarthyism may be just what the BNP wants.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> The more you have the greedier you are IMO.




She can only dance in one thing at once, and Giselle is the ENB's biggest performance, in which she has the lead, at the busiest time of the year, which is Christmas/New Year at the Coliseum.

I honestly think she is a dinwitted idiot who fell for the BNP's soft-pedalled pernicious anti-immigration shite, which is not so far off what the Express and Mail come out with on occasion.

The real scare is how the BNP have managed to make themselves sound palatable to dimwitted ballet dancers skim-reading their manifesto.

 But maybe she does think it is funny dancing in the *English* National Ballet as the principal when all the other nine lead dancers are non-English, and maybe it did get on her tits, after all...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

...either way, she is a twerp, and has not come out of this well.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

> I honestly think she is a dinwitted idiot who fell for the BNP's soft-pedalled pernicious anti-immigration shite, which is not so far off what the Express and Mail come out with on occasion.



Innit, unfortunately the BNPs attempt to reposition themselves is proving quite succesful, just squealing fascist isnt going to work. Ordinary peoples concerns about immigration need to be addressed.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Good. The intention is to put her in the dole for her political views by harrassing her at work- is that clear enough?



 

Clear, but misguided, counter-productive and in fact highly dodgy.

Ker-ist, just read what you have written again. Now imagine she's a Communist. Or an Anarchist. Or a Muslim. Or a Lesbian. Or something.


----------



## JHE (Jan 13, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> it was the protestors that were booed at the ballet yesterday, not the BNP Ballerina.



Don't worry.  The UAF photographed all the booers.  They're going on the list of people to be hounded out of their jobs.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> Ker-ist, just read what you have written again. Now imagine she's a Communist. Or an Anarchist. Or a Muslim. Or a Lesbian. Or something.


But I do think many people would understand the problem of having a fascist at work, or having a prominent individual expound fascist ideas. Which is what needs to be explained: if it just focusses on her having unpleasant views people are more likely to miss this.

I think they probably got the wrong person here, in the wrong way.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

I think they got the wrong person. Dancers just dance, they get told what to do and they do it. They don't have a platform to speak out on politics and nobody cares what they think as long as they point their toes and do the steps thrillingly. If she was a teacher, or a civil servant, or something, fair enough, where her views might affect the decisions she makes, but dancers just dance. Nobody cares what their views are on the single currency, or immigration, or 9/11 , or anything else at all.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> I think they got the wrong person. Dancers just dance, they get told what to do and they do it. They don't have a platform to speak out on politics and nobody cares what they think as long as they point their toes and do the steps thrillingly. If she was a teacher, or a civil servant, or something, fair enough, where her views might affect the decisions she makes, but dancers just dance. Nobody cares what their views are on the single currency, or immigration, or 9/11 , or anything else at all.


Well, except that she does appear to have been given that platform.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Innit, unfortunately the BNPs attempt to reposition themselves is proving quite succesful, just squealing fascist isnt going to work. Ordinary peoples concerns about immigration need to be addressed.



Agreed that descibing her as fascist alone will not work- but you really need to decribe the BNP as fascist at each opportunity 

As to "ordinary peoples concerns about immigration"- what do you mean? Ordianry people say immigration is a good thing- and welcome immigration. Those who oppose immigration dont need their views adressing- but opposing


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Ordinary people say immigration is a good thing- and welcome immigration.


On the whole they don't, actually, do they? I'd rather they did, but they don't.


----------



## exosculate (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> On the whole they don't, actually, do they? I'd rather they did, but they don't.




No they don't. I'm starting to see the unsophisticated position that has lead to a demo being called for now.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Well, except that she does appear to have been given that platform.




And was slated for her views.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Ordianry people say immigration is a good thing- and welcome immigration. Those who oppose immigration dont need their views adressing- but opposing



Do they?  the majority of people I speak to (black and white) appear to have some concerns about immigration, perhaps its just a London thing.  Immigration = good, anti-immigration = bad is a ridiculous oversimplification imho.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Hmm, dont you think this strategy could be counterproductive?  it was the protestors that were booed at the ballet yesterday, not the BNP Ballerina.
> 
> Portraying her as a victim of McCarthyism may be just what the BNP wants.



No. It tells potential BNP members not to join, and existing ones that they must resign. It tells them there is a price to be paid for being a fascist. 

I dont think you understand. This campaign is working class people using their power to stop the BNP organising- and when she is sacked- will give people more encouragement to give the fascists hell wherever, and whenever, they appear


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> And was slated for her views.


Yeah, but that's not the same thing. She _did_ get a platform (and the _Mail _didn't mind giving it to her). That's bothersome.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

> but you really need to decribe the BNP as fascist at each opportunity



TBH I think that the days when the left could shout down opposition by simply accusing them of being fascists are long over.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> and when she is sacked- will give people more encouragement to give the fascists hell wherever, and whenever, they appear


If it works, Jim, maybe. If it doesn't, because you've chosen the wrong target and the wrong time, then it won't.


----------



## exosculate (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> No. It tells potential BNP members not to join, and existing ones that they must resign. It tells them there is a price to be paid for being a fascist.
> 
> I dont think you understand. This campaign is working class people using their power to stop the BNP organising- and when she is sacked- will give people more encouragement to give the fascists hell wherever, and whenever, they appear




Are you a Jehovah-Trot?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> TBH I think that the days when the left could shout down opposition by simply accusing them of being fascists are long over.


Mmm, but it still ought to be possible to accuse fascists of being fascists.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> No. It tells potential BNP members not to join, and existing ones that they must resign. It tells them there is a price to be paid for being a fascist.
> 
> I dont think you understand. This campaign is working class people using their power to stop the BNP organising- and when she is sacked- will give people more encouragement to give the fascists hell wherever, and whenever, they appear



We'll have to disagree - to me it look at best ineffective and at worst counterproductive.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> This campaign is working class people using their power to stop the BNP organising-




Do you have chapter and verse on the class make-up of the protestors?


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Good. The intention is to put her in the dole for her political views by harrassing her at work- is that clear enough?



How ironic,  you sound like a facist.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Mmm, but it still ought to be possible to accuse fascists of being fascists.



I agree, I just odnt think the poublic really takes much notice - its the boy who cried wolf.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> We'll have to disagree - to me it look at best ineffective and at worst counterproductive.


One thing about campaigns of this nature is - if they're ineffective they _are_ counterproductive.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Do they?  the majority of people I speak to (black and white) appear to have some concerns about immigration, perhaps its just a London thing.  Immigration = good, anti-immigration = bad is a ridiculous oversimplification imho.



Not the people I speak to - I am from scotland where there is genuine  outrage at immigration controls being imposed on us by Westminster. Open Borders is a genuinely popular policy

When they tried to deport one lad from shetland- a third of the polulation signed a petition up there to oppose this. In glasgow- many deportations have besn physically stopped by ordinary working class people

As you say- maybe it is a london thing. If anyone  or any groups, tried to oppose immigration up here, they would last 5 minuites


----------



## exosculate (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Not the people I speak to - I am from scotland where there is genuine  outrage at immigration controls being imposed on us by Westminster. Open Borders is a genuinely popular policy
> 
> When they tried to deport one lad from shetland- a third of the polulation signed a petition up there to oppose this. In glasgow- many deportations have besn physically stopped by ordinary working class people
> 
> As you say- maybe it is a london thing. If anyone  or any groups, tried to oppose immigration up here, they would last 5 minuites




Have you met all 6 million of your fellow Scots?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Incidentally, on the question raised rather crudely above: in my experience the audience for ballet is not, overall, so posh and upper-class as the audience for opera.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

'Specially Giselle, just after Christmas, at lunchtime matinee. Attracts lots of little ballet-mad girls, with their families, and students, dance students, and pensioners


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Yeah. Always some people who aren't loaded but just like the dancing.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Yes quite, nobody should face the horror of an UAF demo, how ghastly.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> If it works, Jim, maybe. If it doesn't, because you've chosen the wrong target and the wrong time, then it won't.



But because this is a high profile case- it will have more impact that other fascists who were sacked (say Kevin Scott- who got the sack from B&Q for being a fascist). 

Also, she can`t be overlooked just beacuse she isnt an active fascist or a candidate or whatever. It is exactly because she is an ordinary, non-active, card-carrying member- who probably never attended a meeting or put out a leaflet in here life- that will put fear into the fascists.

It will work- if the pressure is kept up


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Jim, for pity's sake. If you want to keep pressure up you have to attract supporters, not put them off. People who would support you in other circumstances are saying "no, not this one".


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> It will work- if the pressure is kept up




the evidence on this thread suggests quite the opposite, you're just not listening.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> the evidence on this thread suggests quite the opposite, you're just not listening.



Innit, the crowd booed the protestors not the ballerina, which I imagine is exactly what the BNP would want.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Jim, for pity's sake. If you want to keep pressure up you have to attract supporters, not put them off. People who would support you in other circumstances are saying "no, not this one".



I see the media or liberal reaction here as irrelevant- they may find picketing a fascists workplace as somehow distasteful. But it hasn`t resulted in condemnation by anyone, or negative publicity for UAF- and the media reports usually refer to the BNP as fascists.


----------



## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> I see the media or liberal reaction here as irrelevant- they may find picketing a fascists workplace as somehow distasteful. But it hasn`t resulted in condemnation by anyone, or negative publicity for UAF- and the media reports usually refer to the BNP as fascists.



How can you say that given that most of the comments on this thread have been negative?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> I see the media or liberal reaction here as irrelevant-


You are a very stupid individual. If people disagree with you, you call them liberals in order to avoid dealing with it.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> I see the media or liberal reaction here as irrelevant- they may find picketing a fascists workplace as somehow distasteful. But it hasn`t resulted in condemnation by anyone, or negative publicity for UAF- and the media reports usually refer to the BNP as fascists.




And here we go. We're to be "condemned" as liberals because we think a protest is ill-advised. 

I've fought fascists - literally. I've marched and blockaded and protested and fundraised. I'm not having some jumped up little prick dismissing me as a 'liberal' simply because I think one particular action is counter-productive.

It's people like you, Page, who make it pretty fucking likely the Left will never get its act together in this country.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

agricola said:
			
		

> How can you say that given that most of the comments on this thread have been negative?




Because he's yet another self-important, naive fool.


----------



## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> Because he's yet another self-important, naive fool.



True, but he could at least have the decency not to make statements that are immediately disproved by the preceding posts.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

goes with the territory with his type, sadly.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> And here we go. We're to be "condemned" as liberals because we think a protest is ill-advised.
> 
> I've fought fascists - literally. I've marched and blockaded and protested and fundraised. I'm not having some jumped up little prick dismissing me as a 'liberal' simply because I think one particular action is counter-productive.
> 
> It's people like you, Page, who make it pretty fucking likely the Left will never get its act together in this country.



So should she be overlooked? Why? Do you beleive in freedom of speech by fascists? Do you believe a fascist can work in the public sector?

And the left in my country, Scotland, has got its act together


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

No, no. Carry on, as you were etc. Obviously completely ignoring the opinions of those who might be broadly in sympathy with your overall aims is the IDEAL way to secure a future for the left.

All that 'listening to people' and stuff is just namby-pamby liberal hogwash.


----------



## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> And the left in my country, Scotland, has got its act together


----------



## exosculate (Jan 13, 2007)

this thread is actually quite amusing.

1) Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.

2) Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

3) It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a liberal to enter the kingdom of God

psalms, proverbs etc


----------



## JHE (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> As to "ordinary peoples concerns about immigration"- what do you mean? Ordianry people say immigration is a good thing- and welcome immigration.



I suspect people just tell you what you want to hear, Jim, for fear that you'll hit them or campaign for them to be sacked.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

agricola said:
			
		

> How can you say that given that most of the comments on this thread have been negative?



While respecting the majority view on this thread-  go do a google search on the media reports- most simply report this as a picket of a fascist by people who are concerned members of the community. Now if this got a condemnatory headline or article anywhere on the web or press- you might have a point to say "think again". From a publicity point of view, this seems to have worked as a tactic


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> While respecting the majority view on this thread-



where did you do this? this respecting bit? so far, i've seen people condemned as ineffectual liberals, stuff like that. Not much respect.


----------



## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> While respecting the majority view on this thread-  go do a google search on the media reports- most simply report this as a picket of a fascist by people who are concerned members of the community. Now if this got a condemnatory headline or article anywhere on the web or press- you might have a point to say "think again". From a publicity point of view, this seems to have worked as a tactic



First off, you said "Condemnation by anyone", which - given the evidence of this thread - is a bit off.  Secondly I cant find any articles which describe the picket as being composed of "concerned members of the community".


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Yes Jim conform, will you please think of the ballet!


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

agricola said:
			
		

> First off, you said "Condemnation by anyone", which - given the evidence of this thread - is a bit off.  Secondly I cant find any articles which describe the picket as being composed of "concerned members of the community".



I was talking of the general spin put on this by the media coverage. I cant find a single condemnation of the UAF`s  action in the media. It has universally been described as an anti-fascist activity- reminding people the BNP are fascists

Look- do people want to stop the BNP or not?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

They wish to do so by using their brains, not by sticking their fingers in their ears.

If you can't get people's support, Jim, you stop what you're doing, listen to them and try something else next time.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> I was talking of the general spin put on this by the media coverage. I cant find a single condemnation of the UAF`s  action in the media. It has universally been described as an anti-fascist activity- reminding people the BNP are fascists
> 
> Look- do people want to stop the BNP or not?




Can we have some links to the media coverage of this daring protest by the concerned  public at a ballet matinee, please?


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Look- do people want to stop the BNP or not?



These are authoritarians so I do believe it is more effective to attack the leaders rather than the foot soldiers.  

Saying that I'm rather disapointed with the blandness of the thoughts here.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Look- do people want to stop the BNP or not?



yes, thanks. Which is why i think this protest is inane and you're an idiot


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> Can we have some links to the media coverage of this daring protest by the concerned  public at a ballet matinee, please?



http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&ned=uk&ie=UTF-8&q=bnp


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> yes, thanks. Which is why i think this protest is inane and you're an idiot



This protest, and campaign is probably doing more harm to the BNP than putting out 100,000 leaflets or whatever. It is directly targeted at fascists personally- and i reckon that there are several hundred fascists who work for local councils, railways the NHS etc who will be wondering what happens the next time their membership lists are leaked


----------



## Giles (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> So should she be overlooked? Why? Do you beleive in freedom of speech by fascists? Do you believe a fascist can work in the public sector?



You can't have "freedom of speech" at all if it is only allowed for views that you agree with. 

There is no law that states that you can be sacked from your job for membership of any political party, is there?

Giles..


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> This protest, and campaign is probably doing more harm to the BNP than putting out 100,000 leaflets or whatever.


No it isn't, because it is alienating your natural supporters.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Incidentally - I have, in my life, been directly targeted and assaulted by the BNP (at football matches) and it's a vile, frightening experience. I know what they are. I don't regard them as a group who can be treated as just people (_pace_ Giles) who I "disagree with". My concern is what is the best way to show people what they are and mobilise against them. Not all actions against them are the right thing to do, even if I sympathise with the people who carry them out.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

So TWO posters disrupted the performance, and were booed, whilst 50 peaceably demonstrated outside. Fair do's the the ones outside, the ones inside undermined their legit work IMO by spoiling the performance for everyone there. From Yorkshire Post.



> Clarke, from Leeds, was faced with two supporters of Unite Against Fascism who leapt from the stalls 15 minutes into her starring role as Giselle at the London Coliseum.
> They shouted slogans, but Clarke danced on with a fixed smile and the demonstrators were met with cries of "Shame" from the audience before security guards bundled them away.





> About 50 supporters of Unite Against Fascism also staged a noisy protest outside the Covent Garden venue calling for Clarke to be sacked, saying it was "unacceptable" that a BNP member should be part of the English National Ballet.
> But audience member Peter Hilton, 30, a dancer from south London, said: "You can't stop her believing something.
> "I'm not saying it's right, and *I don't agree with her*, but her private life is her private life. When she's on stage she's a character so her own beliefs don't come into it.
> "*The protest spoiled it for us – it disrupted the performance and I don't think it was the right place* to go about it."
> ...



The Telegraph has more than 2 disrupting it 



> ....a 34-year-old man and several sixth-form students jumped up from their seats to shout





> "It was an absolutely outrageous outburst, and completely inappropriate", said Angela Large, a 50-year-old photographer who was among many to pay more than £40 for a seat in the stalls.
> 
> "*I have no sympathy with the BNP but to attack and humiliate someone while they are using their talent and doing their job is the wrong way to make a statement."*
> Others apparently chose to return their tickets when told of the principal dancer's links to the BNP.




The protesters turning up encouarged 30 member of the BNP to turn up.
( Guardian) 



> The usual matinee mix of *pensioners and schoolchildren *had been joined at the London Coliseum, central London, by two less likely groups of ballet enthusiasts - about 30 members of the British National party and a smaller number of anti-racism activists



I think the protest outside was a good move, in my entirely personal and sunjective opinion, and I might have joined in if I had been in the area. But upsetting the audience  just backfires - note how all those interviewed say they don't agree with her politics but found the disruption during an artistic  performance in appropriate.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> No it isn't, because it is alienating your natural supporters.



What the working masses that love the ballet


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

It's another silly, silly posting.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> So should she be overlooked? Why? Do you beleive in freedom of speech by fascists? Do you believe a fascist can work in the public sector?




I believe in freedom of speech for everyone. Like it or not she is entitled to vote for and be a member of whatever party she chooses. She has the right to speak as much as you or I, and Ballet isn't the public sector. Funded by the public or not.
 Arms are been sold to fascists paid for by the public, that is a far worthier cause to protest against. Not some bird that prances around for a living and doesn't think before opening her mouth.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> She is a BNP member, thereefore is a fascist.



That's a rather daft assertion.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> I believe in freedom of speech for everyone. Like it or not she is entitled to vote for and be a member of whatever party she chooses. She has the right to speak as much as you or I, and Ballet isn't the public sector. Funded by the public or not.
> Arms are been sold to fascists paid for by the public, that is a far worthier cause to protest against. Not some bird that prances around for a living and doesn't think before opening her mouth.




I agree.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Well, not "daft". Inaccurate, simplistic and unsophisticated, but not "daft" as such.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> I agree.


I don't believe in freedom of speech for everyone. There are limits, and must be limits, to all freedoms of all sorts. There are, plainly, things we would not in a civilised society permit to be publicly said, even if we define that as "shouting FIRE in a crowded theatre".


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> note how all those interviewed say they don't agree with her politics but found the disruption during an artistic  performance in appropriate.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Orwell:

_When I joined the militia I had promised myself to kill one Fascist--after all, if each of us killed one they would soon be extinct--and I had killed nobody yet, had hardly had the chance to do so. _

Note that Orwell, by this, just means "somebody fighting on the Fascist side". As he knew as well as anybody, that wouldn't necessarily have meant a convinced, dedicated Fascist, indeed the chances were that it would not. But he uses the term anyway.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> That's a rather daft assertion.



But the BNP are fascists. Its a simple desciption of their worldview- not a term of abuse


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But the BNP are fascists. Its a simple desciption of their worldview- not a term of abuse


Jim, it's your thinking that's simple. Does everybody who joins the BNP understand exactly what they mean and what they want?

I don't mind using the term "fascist" as shorthand - it's a fascist organisation - and nobody who joins them can complain if the term is used of them, but as a statement of fact about all their members it's not completely accurate.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But the BNP are fascists. Its a simple desciption of their worldview- not a term of abuse



O to live in such a simple world as you.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

YES but there are ways and means of gathering support than _pissing off an audience of _


> pensioners and schoolchildren



Note that the audience members interviewed said things like


> I'm not saying it's right, and I don't agree with her



but then lost all sympathy with the protesters because of their tactics disrupting the show



> but her private life is her private life. When she's on stage she's a character so her own beliefs don't come into it.
> "The protest spoiled it for us – it disrupted the performance and I don't think it was the right place to go about it."





> "It was an absolutely outrageous outburst, and completely inappropriate", said Angela Large, a 50-year-old photographer who was among many to pay more than £40 for a seat in the stalls.
> 
> "I have no sympathy with the BNP but to attack and humiliate someone while they are using their talent and doing their job is the wrong way to make a statement."



People outside protesting, fair enough.
Disrupting a performance, not fair enough. IMO.
Returning tickets and saying why  
Writing to papers saying why returning tickets  
Papers reporting peaceful anti facist demo outside,  
IMO.

There are ways and means of getting publicity. Think the disrupters inside backfired on the protesters outside. Again, IMO.

 And yes, free speech doesn't go as far as bullying or tormenting people, and I think there are better ways of going about making anti-BNP points than twatting about in a theatre disrupting a ballet matinee. FWIW, IYSWIM.IMO. etc.

And people sneering as if ballet is elitist can fuck off: as I keep saying, the matinee IS when the less well off go, kids, students, pensioners etc, its where you can get many more accessible cheap seats.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 13, 2007)

> note how all those *interviewed* say they don't agree with her politics but found the disruption during an artistic performance in appropriate.



hmmm

i still havent made my mind up about this, but its worth noting that almost all direct action will inconvenience people in some way, thats kind of the point

ive always been torn over the no platform thing and i think every case needs to be judged on its merit, for example if the bnp plot up in bradford and start trying to agigate the community and cause divisions then a bunch of militant anti-facists turning up and shutting down the meeting is no bad thing in my view

i dont think the bnp or uaf have done particularly well out of this situation, but i do take on board the fact that at least it has generally been reported that the this was an anti-facist action, ie, the bnp are facist

it may be that the threat of facism is so close and dangerous (some would say that facism-lite is already here, certainly from an economic perspective) that is should be closed down wherever it rears its head regardless of the opinions of a few ballet fans

it may also be argued that to do this is counter-productive, and the threat is so important that we cant afford to take a risk like this, i can see both sides

ill try pick a side if i stay on this thread tho'  

just to add that there really is a massive working class open borders movement in scotland

also blags, she is in a publically funded position and she did use that role to give her a platform to speak politically, which isnt really on

if the captain of the england team gave an interview promoting any political idea i reckon its a safe bet theyd be sacked

ok, the type of work weve done may be a bit different, but id point out that ive often felt politically compromised in my work and have rarely felt confident enough to reveal my true politics or political activities


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> And people sneering as if ballet is elitist can fuck off: as I keep saying, the matinee IS when the less well off go, kids, students, pensioners etc, and many more cheap seats.


Hurrah!


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

a more accurate description of the protest, which attracted 100 anti fascists...


Up to 100 protesters demonstrated outside the London Coliseum theatre this lunchtime against the first performance by Simone Clarke, principal dancer at the English National Ballet (ENB), since she was revealed as a card-carrying member of the fascist British National Party (BNP).

The protest, organised by Unite Against Fascism, was lively with constant chanting against the BNP. Demonstrators carried placards reading “Ballet not bigotry” and “No to fascism and racism at the ballet”. The demo also attracted significant interest from the mainstream media.

Clarke’s membership of the BNP was revealed in the Guardian newspaper over Christmas. She responded by giving a lengthy and unrepentant interview with the Mail on Sunday where she showered praise on the BNP’s anti-immigration agenda.

The actual performance of Giselle was disrupted by protesters from Love Music Hate Racism shortly after Clarke made her entrance on stage. They stood up and shouted that her presence was a disgrace, that there should be no racism in the arts, and that the BNP was a fascist organisation.

A group of a dozen or so Nazis were also at the performance, huddled around Richard Barnbrook, the BNP’s mayoral candidate and lead councillor in Barking & Dagenham. They loudly applauded and cheered when Clarke made her entrance.

Emma Blackwood, a visual artist and musician from west London, was on the Unite protest outside. She highlighted the BNP’s bigoted attitudes towards lesbians, gay men, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people.

“Simone Clarke represents a fascist organisation. That seems to me to be incongruent with the arts world, which involves lots of LGBT people,” she told Socialist Worker.

“Clarke’s allegiance to the BNP must be distressing for her colleagues as well as for artists in general. She’s being employed by a publicly funded organisation, so she should not be publicly aligning herself with a fascist political party.”

Renowned classical pianist Ian Pace was also on the Unite protest. “It is incompatible for Clarke to be an active BNP member – going to meetings and using her prominence to promote the organisation – while also being in a multicultural state funded arts organisation,” he said.

“If she were to leave the BNP, then fine. But if not, she cannot remain part of a company with an extremely diverse group of dancers, many of whom are immigrants – she has to go.

“I also think she should say what she thinks about the politics of the BNP – which include Holocaust denial, racism and criminal violence.”

According to an article in today’s Independent newspaper, Clarke’s fascist sympathies have attracted anger from colleagues and workers at the ENB.

It reports “growing frustration among the troupe’s 150 dancers and backstage staff that Clarke has not been publicly challenged about her views when nine out her ten fellow principal dancers are immigrants”.

Both the Musicians’ Union and the Bectu theatre workers’ union have spoken out against Clarke and condemned the BNP. The actors’ union Equity, in contrast, has failed to comment.

Gerry Morrissey, Bectu’s assistant general secretary, said, “Simone Clarke earns her living in the subsidised arts and with this goes certain responsibilities, with which she has failed to comply. She has brought our industry into disrepute.”


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> also blags, she is in a publically funded position and she did use that role to give her a platform to speak politically, which isnt really on



She is hardly running a publically funded organisation though is she? Which is the parallel you drew earlier.

Also, the point has been made that it was outing her that led to her being able to espouse her views in the media in the first place.

Oh and I've always been comfortable talking about my politics at work - most of my colleagues are left wing also.  In fact my manager in one post was an ex-member of Red Action.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

> A group of a dozen or so Nazis were also at the performance,



Well, that isn't accurate, is it?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

Jim, long cut-and-pastes from _Socialist Worker_ do not usually invite applause on this forum. Try and provide a link instead.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> a more accurate description of the protest, which attracted 100 anti fascists...
> 
> 
> Up to 100 protesters demonstrated outside the London Coliseum theatre this lunchtime
> <snip>



You could have included the source.  Socialist Worker.


----------



## agricola (Jan 13, 2007)

...which is from that quality journal "Socialist Worker"!

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10483


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> YES but there are ways and means of gathering support than _pissing off an audience of _
> 
> There are ways and means of getting publicity. Think the disrupters inside backfired on the protesters outside. Again, IMO.
> 
> But it didnt- ignore the opinions of a few mifddle class ballet fans who frankly dont matter- there was not a critical word from the media. There is groweing anger in the unions as well at the presence of this fascist in a theatre


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> ignore the opinions of a few middle class ballet fans who frankly dont matter


Will this exceedingly stupid man please shut up.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> there was not a critical word from the media.



Not true.  Vanessa Feltz on the Radio London phone in on Friday morning took a critical position.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

Wonder how these comments, by a leading member of the BNP, will go down with Ms Clarke? 



> When he [Barnbrook] started to answer questions about the Holocaust one of his minders hissed in his ear: "Don't talk about the Holocaust, stick to the ballet."





> "She's not racist - she's going out with someone who is not of her own race," he said. But he said, he hoped the couple would not have children.
> 
> "I'm not opposed to mixed marriages but their children are washing out the identity of this country's indigenous people," he explained, quickly adding: "That's my view, it's not the party's view."



Apparently, according to a BBC report, Barnbrook did not appear to be aware that Ms Clarke and Mr Sen-Chang have a child. 

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1989461,00.html


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

So if they were working class parents watching their kids in a Nativity play, then you wouldn't approve of people leaping onto the stage and disrupting it, but as they are *''middle class'' *pensioners and school kids *they're fair game?

_* and how the fuck do you know if they are middle class, you little snob?_

Boorish twattery, IMO, which back fired. But carry on with your brave struggle comrade, protesting, say, arms fairs, or pushing for the right to protest outside Parliament/generally are as not as important as fucking off a few hundred people who love dance and went to see a show on a day when the seats are cheaper, and of whose number many said they were anti-BNP but lost patience with the protest because of the actions of a few inside the theatre.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

agricola said:
			
		

> ...which is from that quality journal "Socialist Worker"!
> 
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10483



And? SW has its faults- but it put the attendance more accurately at nearly a hundred- and reported on union and artists views.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jan 13, 2007)

...and called people ''Nazis'' which is just inaccurate and a great way to lose your audience by over-stating the case in a hysterical way.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

The writer's all right, I know him from another forum. Party man but you can argue with him.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> So if they were working class parents watching their kids in a Nativity play, then you wouldn't approve of people leaping onto the stage and disrupting it, but as they are *''middle class'' *pensioners and school kids *they're fair game?
> 
> People were invited to boycott the event- and didnt listen to what was told to them. Only one did. The event was sucessfully disrupted. Clarke will be on the way to the benefit office soon.
> 
> Militant anti fascism like this can provide results. Lets see what will happen as a result of this action- my prediction- BNP members being increasingly terrified to identify themselves and stand for election. And hopefully, the long demanded ban on fascists working in the public sector


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Jan 13, 2007)

And a decrease in people listening to you, and no increase in you listening to other people.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> ...and called people ''Nazis'' which is just inaccurate and a great way to lose your audience by over-stating the case in a hysterical way.



Yes, but always remember this, the BNP is not normal political party. It is made up of fascists and racists who want to kick out all non-white people from Britain and, in the words of the BNP leader, "hang race traitors", in which he includes liberals like yourself.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Badger Kitten said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Yes, but always remember this, the BNP is not normal political party. It is made up of fascists and racists who want to kick out all non-white people from Britain and, in the words of the BNP leader, "hang race traitors", in which he includes liberals like yourself.



Yeah, but they're not the NSDAP in 30's Germany, so describing them as Nazi's is somewhat innaccurate.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> JimPage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> The perfomance was disrupted.



How so?  By 15 seconds of shouting, followed by the audience booing the protestors and then being escorted out?




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> The ballet company know that wont be the last time- so may well sack her
> 
> Success in dissuading people from from joining the BNP- and intimidating  others who dont want this to happen to them at their workplace into resigning
> There are probably people out there who may think " i would like to join the BNP but am afraid of losing my job" as  a result of this
> ...



You have absolutely no evidence for any of this.


----------



## Pete the Greek (Jan 13, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> I don't believe in freedom of speech for everyone. There are limits, and must be limits, to all freedoms of all sorts. There are, plainly, things we would not in a civilised society permit to be publicly said, even if we define that as "shouting FIRE in a crowded theatre".



This is a direct contradiction to what you said the other day about the Muslim bloke who got arrested for shouting "bomb Denmark, bomb USA" at a demo.

is it not?


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Blagsta said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## smokedout (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> She is hardly running a publically funded organisation though is she? Which is the parallel you drew earlier.
> 
> Also, the point has been made that it was outing her that led to her being able to espouse her views in the media in the first place.



ok, but i think the england captain comparison is valid



> Oh and I've always been comfortable talking about my politics at work - most of my colleagues are left wing also.  In fact my manager in one post was an ex-member of Red Action.



fuck, just be glad you never worked for T*****R***H  B***W*Y


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Badger Kitten said:
			
		

> Well, that isn't accurate, is it?



Nazi sympathises/wannabe would be an accurate description.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh and there's nobody complaining that she has a political opinion - it's the fact she's joined the undemocratic and fascist BNP that's the problem.

Furthermore, what is it about immigration that could possibly affect someone like her in her position of wealth and status? It's not like any immigrant is going to come along and take her job is it? Well, not unless they're better at it.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Yeah, but they're not the NSDAP in 30's Germany, so describing them as Nazi's is somewhat innaccurate.



In the scheme of things they're fascists, but also some of the membership (leading members) hark back to the Germany of the thirties. Ask Collett. A number also like to give the straight arm salute. In private these days of course, but get caught out sometimes when some insider passes video evidence to anti-fascists.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> you're an idiot. And it's depressing



Hey, it looks like you're referring to me!


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Why can we refer to them as fascists and not nazis pray tell?

The Nazis were the ones cashing in on 'out-group' differences not the fascists.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Hey, it looks like you're referring to me!




nope, sorry. Definitely Jim Page and his carefully thought out campaign


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> In the scheme of things they're fascists, but also some of the membership (leading members) hark back to the Germany of the thirties. Ask Collett. A number also like to give the straight arm salute. In private these days of course, but get caught out sometimes when some insider passes video evidence to anti-fascists.



Yes, but its innacurate to call them Nazi's.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Yes, but its innacurate to call them Nazi's.



It's more accurate to call them nazis than fascists.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Why can we refer to them as fascists and not nazis pray tell?
> 
> The Nazis were the ones cashing in on 'out-group' differences not the fascists.



Maybe I'm being pedantic, but the term "Nazi" refers to NSPAP in 20's - 40's Germany.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

JimPage is right, militant anti-fascism such as this will make it clear to all those racist fuckwits out there to think twice about joining the BNP. There is no going back to the 70's when it was deemed "normal" to come out with any stupid, nasty, racist crapolla in the workplace and elsewhere. Anti-racism is and will continue to be a commonsense approach to hate fuelled bollocks.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> JimPage is right, militant anti-fascism such as this will make it clear to all those racist fuckwits out there to think twice about joining the BNP. There is no going back to the 70's when it was deemed "normal" to come out with any stupid, nasty, racist crapolla in the workplace and elsewhere. Anti-racism is and will continue to be a commonsense approach to hate fuelled bollocks.



I don't think it will, I think all it does is to make the BNP out to be political martyrs.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Yes, but its innacurate to call them Nazi's.



It's not innacurate to understand that some of the leaders and members of this odious organisation are Hitlerite, fuhrer inspired wannabe's, with a liking for the ideas of national socialism.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I don't think it will, I think all it does is to make the BNP out to be political martyrs.



You're entitled to your opinion, but in this case you're wrong and will be seen to be so.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 13, 2007)

This action was pants.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm being pedantic, but the term "Nazi" refers to NSPAP in 20's - 40's Germany.



...and I could say the equivalent about Mussolini's movement during the same time.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 13, 2007)

Neo-nazis will not be defeated by namby pamby authoritarian centrism as is spouted on this thread.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2007)

TopCat said:
			
		

> This action was pants.



You will have been putting yours on at the time?


----------



## netbob (Jan 13, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> This is the sort of thing that alienates the white working classes from the left (funny how the swappies and thier front orgs like UAF are never there when services are being cut from WWC areas or when pensioners are being frozen and starved in their own homes but they are always there for publicity stunts like this)



I know some of the people who organised this demo and they are there when services are being cut as it happens. 

(memespring - not a swappie)


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You're entitled to your opinion, but in this case you're wrong and will be seen to be so.




i suspect not. I suspect exactly the reverse, i'm afraid to say.


----------



## The Sick Anchor (Jan 14, 2007)

> militant anti-fascism such as this will make it clear to all those racist fuckwits out there to think twice about joining the BNP. There is no going back to the 70's



if there's no going back to the 70s/80s, you should surely realise that militant anti fascism as a tactic is pretty pointless in the current day, you've got to attack what the right are attacking with, and that's not fists & bottles, it's ideas & policies that are resonating with a large chunk of the very part of society that the left has failed (which you blanketly write off as racist fuck wits), and will continue to fail if they stick to cobweb type tactics as their central plank of anti-facism


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 14, 2007)

ok, so I am going to be a bit simplistic here.

The BNP go and buy some cheap suits from Burtons and start to present themselves as a legitimate political party - which they are, let's not forget that (whatever dispicable intentions they are hiding).
The UAP follow them whereever, and no matter how well intentioned, harass them everywhere with placards and demo's.
The BNP gain sympathy as all they have to do is stad their in front of the cameras palms outward and say "look we are being denied the chance to speak"

At a time when political freedoms such as the priviledge to speak your mind for what you believe is very much an important issue, this is counter productive, it makes the fascists out to be martyrs. Like it or not, mass immigration is an important issue for the average man in Britain. It is him that is been undercut by immigrant workers amongst other issues. If the BNP are able to gain leverage on this by not only claiming that they are listening to him, but also are being denied the chance to speak in the name of "political correctness", do you think he will listen to the protesters - who have no political argument relevant to him, just shouty slogans, or the poor BNP who are been denied the right to speak up. Just like he feels.

In other words, use your heads, fight them politically, with reasoned argument and common sense. They have entered the political arena. You must argue against them here. Not in the streets with placards.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 14, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> ok, so I am going to a bit simplistic here.
> 
> The BNP go and buy some cheap suits from Burtons and start to present themselves as a legitimate political party - which they are, let's not forget that (whatever dispicable intentions they are hiding).
> The UAP follow them whereever, and no matter how well intentioned, harass them everywhere with placards and demo's.
> ...



Aye I agree with a lot of that, while theres still a place for unmasking the real racist agenda of the BNP, we also need to be out discussing peoples real fears about immigration and refuting a lot of the myths around immigration. Just squealing fascist at anyone who's anti-immigration isnt going to work.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 14, 2007)

bit late to this, but i feel ms clarke should be given _lots _of publicity - on grounds of pure stupidity.  According to yesterdays grauniad she joined on the grounds of things she read in the bnp manifesto - even though she was "not too pround to say that  a lot of it went over my head".  Fuck me! she finds the bnp's manifesto _*too intellectual*_!  

On the demo, agree with a lot that has been said - counter productive, all too predictable and a dodgy precedent.  Rather than some tedious shouty thing, her involvement in the fash should have been used humourously, as the basis for leaflets, jokes, graffiti - to ridicule the very thing that the grauniad reporter uncovered (that they are actively seeking to get middle class members and shaking off the skinhead image).  Could easily imagine what some half decent photoshopper could come up with, playing around with images of clarke, hitler, stormtroopers etc.

E2a: and those who are calling for her to be sacked should just think about the consequences.  Would be just about the biggest gift the bnp has received in years.  Would be able to bang on about how the 'establishment' is trying to quash them, how they get unequal treatment to the other parties etc etc.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

The Sick Anchor said:
			
		

> if there's no going back to the 70s/80s, you should surely realise that militant anti fascism as a tactic is pretty pointless in the current day, you've got to attack what the right are attacking with, and that's not fists & bottles, it's ideas & policies that are resonating with a large chunk of the very part of society that the left has failed (which you blanketly write off as racist fuck wits), and will continue to fail if they stick to cobweb type tactics as their central plank of anti-facism



Read my post again and you will find I wrote "militant anti-fascism such as this" (picketing in this case) and not "fists & bottles" as you write. Also, I wasn't referring to those who are misguided and vote for them, you seem to have conveniently forgotton that there *are* racist fuckwits in the BNP.

I also take issue with your assertion that a "large chunk of society" is "resonating" with the "ideas & policies" of the BNP. Not "large" at all. As the ballerina in question notes most of there policies went over her head when she read them and apparently she concentrates on just one issue - immigration. Which I suspect as do most people who vote for this odious party.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> i suspect not. I suspect exactly the reverse, i'm afraid to say.



If you don't mind, I'll take my cue from my own experiences in these matters and from those who have a vast experience of fighting fascism.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> ok, so I am going to be a bit simplistic here.
> 
> The BNP go and buy some cheap suits from Burtons and start to present themselves as a legitimate political party - which they are, let's not forget that (whatever dispicable intentions they are hiding).
> The UAP follow them whereever, and no matter how well intentioned, harass them everywhere with placards and demo's.
> ...



Not only simplistic, but liberal shite too.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> If you don't mind, I'll take my cue from my own experiences in these matters and from those who have a vast experience of fighting fascism.




feel free. You and Jim and the rest can continue to alienate the very people you're claiming to be fighting for, ignoring advice / criticisms from people who might actually have a similar worldview and might - just might - also have a clue. Bound to be a terribly effective way of getting things done, good luck


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> feel free. You and Jim and the rest can continue to alienate the very people you're claiming to be fighting for, ignoring advice / criticisms from people who might actually have a similar worldview and might - just might - also have a clue. Bound to be a terribly effective way of getting things done, good luck



Thanks, I will indeed keep ignoring your advice.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Thanks, I will indeed keep ignoring your advice.




good. But can you please stop claiming to be doing this for the common man in that case. By the way it looks like you have fallen in to that terribly liberal trap of claiming superiority over everyone else and knowing what's best for everyone.

Good luck


----------



## snadge (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Not only simplistic, but liberal shite too.



you're the fucking fascist here.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> good. But can you please stop claiming to be doing this for the common man in that case. By the way it looks like you have fallen in to that terribly liberal trap of claiming superiority over everyone else and knowing what's best for everyone.
> 
> Good luck



Not at all (as I posted), on this subject I will take advice from those who have a vast experience of fighting fascism and not amateurs.

Btw, luck has nowt to do with it.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Not at all (as I posted), on this subject I will take advice from those who have a vast experience of fighting fascism and not amateurs.



you're an arrogant wanker, aren't you?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

snadge said:
			
		

> you're the fucking fascist here.



How? Is it because I believe that a fascist organisation should be denied a platform for their odious views. Views that include the denying of free speech to anyone they disagree with, denying the right of an individual to marry and have children of their choice, nevermind, what they would deny to black and Asian people. This is not about "political correctness"  as poster Boris Sprinkler states, but effective anti-fascism ensuring that this nasty, lying, odious little party is kept to the margins.

Now, the "average man", or "common man" (I note that Boris has not mentioned women as yet in his posts?) may have concerns about immigration (I don't has it happens) and yes it is important to discuss this, but that don't mean I'm going to legitimise an avowedly fascist party.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> you're an arrogant wanker, aren't you?



Judging by your numerous posts, that label suits you sir.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> but that don't mean I'm going to legitimise an avowedly fascist party.



nobody's suggesting you should, you fucking goon


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> How? Is it because I believe that a fascist organisation should be denied a platform for their odious views.
> <snip>



She was dancing in a ballet.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> nobody's suggesting you should, you fucking goon



Goon.  

Some on here seem to think that fascists have the right to free speech? I don't, ballerina, or not. If she denies that she is a fascist and just "concerned abour immigration" then she has the option to bail out now and join an organisation like Hackney Independent for example.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Goon.
> 
> Some on here seem to think that fascists have the right to free speech.



She was dancing in a ballet.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> She was dancing in a ballet.



Never.  Still a member of a fascist party last time I looked.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Never.  Still a member of a fascist party last time I looked.



So given that you agree she was dancing in a ballet, how is that "a platform for [her] odious views"?


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> How? Is it because I believe that a fascist organisation should be denied a platform for their odious views. Views that include the denying of free speech to anyone they disagree with, denying the right of an individual to marry and have children of their choice, nevermind, what they would deny to black and Asian people. This is not about "political correctness"  as poster Boris Sprinkler states, but effective anti-fascism ensuring that this nasty, lying, odious little party is kept to the margins.
> 
> Now, the "average man", or "common man" (I note that Boris has not mentioned women as yet in his posts?) may have concerns about immigration (I don't has it happens) and yes it is important to discuss this, but that don't mean I'm going to legitimise an avowedly fascist party.



yes. exactly. You seek to control and silence people.

oh and btw I didn't mention women as i am a misogynist and most likely a nazi as well for daring to state that you may be wrong, and I put political correctness in speech marks as I believe it would be something the BNP would say. I hate the phrase too. Of course that should of been obvious to anyone reading my post, unless they had their head up their arse. As you do. You fucking tool.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> So given that you agree she was dancing in a ballet, how is that "a platform for [her] odious views"?



Clarke being allowed, despite her membership of a fascist organisation, to continue her role in this production is implicitly putting across the view that fascist membership is acceptable. Do you not think that the BNP leadership are loving this normalising of a fascist party? I would be interested how the rest of the dancers felt about her being included?


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

i think i've found my new favourite fucknut, and it's MC5. well done


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> yes. exactly. You seek to control and silence people.
> 
> oh and btw I didn't mention women as i am a misogynist and most likely a nazi as well for daring to state that you may be wrong, and I put political correctness in speech marks as I believe it would be something the BNP would say. I hate the phrase too. Of course that should of been obvious to anyone reading my post, unless they had their head up their arse. As you do. You fucking tool.



Dear me, the abuse and smears are coming thick and fast now, as you appear to have lost the argument? Is that the best you can do?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> i think i've found my new favourite fucknut, and it's MC5. well done



I rest my case.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Dear me, the abuse and smears are coming thick and fast now, as you appear to have lost the argument? Is that the best you can do?



I don't think I've lost my argument at all, because I still hold my opinion, you on the other do not seem capable of debate, a fact highlighted by your assertion that the BNP should not be allowed to speak. At all. Fullstop. And that you are the one to prevent them from doing so.
Of course this is exactly what they want. But you don't seem to quite grasp that.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Clarke being allowed, despite her membership of a fascist organisation, to continue her role in this production is implicitly putting across the view that fascist membership is acceptable. Do you not think that the BNP leadership are loving this normalising of a fascist party? I would be interested how the rest of the dancers felt about her being included?



What the fuck are you talking about?


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 14, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> In other words, use your heads, fight them politically, with reasoned argument and common sense. They have entered the political arena. You must argue against them here. Not in the streets with placards.



Placards and these type of wanky demos have never achieved anything apart from advertise whatever group is pimping themselves.

I think we should consider what Hilter said about the only way the Nazis could of been stoppped i.e. violently crushed.

Not only that but by engaging with them  on this plastic veneer of decency only gives them more credibility....IMO of course.

Target their leaders in every way possible, make their lives uncomfortable and uncertain.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> I don't think I've lost my argument at all, because I still hold my opinion, you on the other do not seem capable of debate, a fact highlighted by your assertion that the BNP should not be allowed to speak. At all. Fullstop. And that you are the one to prevent them from doing so.
> Of course this is exactly what they want. But you don't seem to quite grasp that.



Debate with fascists? Difficult as they deliberately lie and deceive and make a mockery of "free speech".

One such speech in the US not so long ago saw Griffin defending himself from charges that he was diluting his politics (appearing respectable). Griffin explained that this was a short-term political tactic. Pointing to his white skin he reassured the audience that defending his race was all that was important.

However, I accept that demonising the BNP is not enough. For the BNP to be beaten someone else needs to win and this requires organisations to push their own ideas in a way that also exposes the BNP.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> What the fuck are you talking about?



Plain to all I would have thought. That the English National Ballet which receives £6m of public money a year from the Arts Council (which requires recipients of public money to be "aware of how their work contributes to race equality and promoting good race relations") has not challenged Clarke about her views, despite the wave of discontent from within the troupe itself and when nine out her 10 fellow principal dancers are immigrants.

One conclusion that can be made, as I've already alluded to, is that the management of the ENB believe it's ok for one of it's principle dancers to support the BNP and therefore legitimising this odious, fascist organisation. Part of a process by the leadership of the BNP, along the road of normalisation that they have only dreamt about until now.

It appears that the management of ENB have got their heads in the sand on this, clearly hoping it will just go away. It won't.

I find it ironic (and also naive on her part) that Ms Clarke has the temerity to join a party that would deny her partner and co-dancer at the ENB, Yat Sen-Chang, a Cuban immigrant with a Chinese father, membership of said organisation.

It will be interesting to see if all this follows the plot of Giselle:

After declaring her love for Prince Albrecht, Giselle realises his true nature, and is condemned to live as a tortured spirit.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2007)

What the fuck are you on about?  How is she promoting the BNP by dancing in a ballet?  Its people like you that are giving her all the publicity.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> What the fuck are you on about?  How is she promoting the BNP by dancing in a ballet?  Its people like you that are giving her all the publicity.



Clarke has promoted BNP in the Daily Mail (which she wouldn't have got a look in if she wasn't a prominent, principle ballerina). She also continues to promote the BNP by being a member and seemingly not having any qualms about belonging to this fascist party.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Clarke has promoted BNP in the Daily Mail (which she wouldn't have got a look in if she wasn't a prominent, principle ballerina).



we've been over this, einstein. She didn't set about promoting the BNP, she was interviewed after her membership had been exposed.




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> She also continues to promote the BNP by being a member and seemingly not having any qualms about belonging to this fascist party.



being a member of something is not the same as promoting it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 14, 2007)

I began to believe she could just be extremely naive but now I just think she is trying do some damage limitation with her muddled witterings.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> being a member of something is not the same as promoting it.



But she is a supporter.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> But she is a supporter.




of course, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> This protest, and campaign is probably doing more harm to the BNP than putting out 100,000 leaflets or whatever. It is directly targeted at fascists personally- and i reckon that there are several hundred fascists who work for local councils, railways the NHS etc who will be wondering what happens the next time their membership lists are leaked



THis is true, I have some sympathy for Jim, and less for th liberals who are critiquing Jim by saying he's a liberal. I actually find the liberalism is held by those who are 'speculating that this protest is harming anti fascism'... as hot air is no basis for a historical materialist political position, nor an anarchist one come to that.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> being a member of something is not the same as promoting it.



Semantics... actually she is promoting it cos her £25 IS helping to promote the BNP via their publicity materials...


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> we've been over this, einstein. She didn't set about promoting the BNP, she was interviewed after her membership had been exposed.



Cut the personal shite thanks.

Exposed in The Guardian and interviewed later in the Mail on Sunday as it happens, where she gave a lengthy and unrepentant interview and showered praise on the BNP’s anti-immigration agenda.



> being a member of something is not the same as promoting it.



Of course it isn't.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Cut the personal shite thanks.
> 
> Exposed in The Guardian and interviewed later in the Mail on Sunday as it happens, where she gave a lengthy and unrepentant interview and showered praise on the BNP’s anti-immigration agenda.
> 
> ...




We all appreciate your smelly oik politics but can't you understand you cannot disrupt the ballet?

ffs


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Cut the personal shite thanks.



not likely, i'm afraid.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> We all appreciate your smelly oik politics but can't you understand you cannot disrupt the ballet?
> 
> ffs



I love the ballet. I dislike fascists though. Even naive ones like this one are not excluded from protest.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> not likely, i'm afraid.



I'm not.


----------



## soulman (Jan 14, 2007)

Ballet my arse!


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Clarke has promoted BNP in the Daily Mail (which she wouldn't have got a look in if she wasn't a prominent, principle ballerina).



Yes, this has already been covered - she only got to "promote" the BNP because she was publicly outed as a member.




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> She also continues to promote the BNP by being a member and seemingly not having any qualms about belonging to this fascist party.



How does she continue to promote it?


----------



## -[Eco-Geek]- (Jan 15, 2007)

Why isn't she entitled to her views, no matter how biggoted they seem?


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 15, 2007)

-[Eco-Geek]- said:
			
		

> Why isn't she entitled to her views, no matter how biggoted they seem?




careful now, don't want to be labelled a liberal.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2007)

-[Eco-Geek]- said:
			
		

> Why isn't she entitled to her views, no matter how biggoted they seem?



Something I think is important is political accountability. Too often in anarchist circles there is no political accountability, and fascists should be made to accept the consequences of having anti social opinions... 

Anti social cos they are aimed at certain sections so you MUST accept these sections will have something to say, to your face... In fact this is a radical democratic point of view, and not a hairy fairy liberal one that says in a dope filled haze - 'maaannn she's entitled to her point of view'...


----------



## Wilf (Jan 15, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Anti social cos they are aimed at certain sections so you MUST accept these sections will have something to say, to your face... In fact this is a radical democratic point of view, and not a hairy fairy liberal one that says in a dope filled haze - 'maaannn she's entitled to her point of view'...


I don't have a problem with her getting some stick.  She is supporting the fash - and is anyway a complete idiot (having a mixed race child).  However the *form *that this has taken is the problem - an all too predictable chanty thing.  Should have been more creative and done in a way that didn't alienate all present - as this clearly has done.  

Foot note: I'm not personally worried about the sensitivities of ballet audiences.  However its the swp/uaf who are going on about her role (as in 'using her role to promote the fash').  Logicaly, _they _should be more concerned about their own impact on the audience and wider public.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 15, 2007)

4thwrite said:
			
		

> I don't have a problem with her getting some stick.  She is supporting the fash - and is anyway a complete idiot (having a mixed race child).  However the *form *that this has taken is the problem - an all too predictable chanty thing.  Should have been more creative and done in a way that didn't alienate all present - as this clearly has done.
> 
> Foot note: I'm not personally worried about the sensitivities of ballet audiences.  However its the swp/uaf who are going on about her role (as in 'using her role to promote the fash').  Logicaly, _they _should be more concerned about their own impact on the audience and wider public.




can't disagree with any of that. It's about approach and it's also about perspective - as abhorrent as this woman might be, she's not really high profile or any kind of threat - indeed, by exposing her, she's had a mouthpiece she would otherwise never have been given.

Perhaps it's time for the people involved to admit this is as much a profile raising action on their part as anything?


----------



## Spion (Jan 15, 2007)

-[Eco-Geek]- said:
			
		

> Why isn't she entitled to her views, no matter how biggoted they seem?



she is entitled to her views. And other people are entitled to express what vile shite her views are


----------



## dylanredefined (Jan 15, 2007)

I think someone being hounded out of work for her political views is wrong and seems too much like a lynch mob imho.
   Also whenever you finally get to hear the bnp speak they come over as a bunch of fuckwits anyway and I always come away thinking what was the fuss about. Give them all the publicity they can handle like a loathsome mould
they will dry out and blow away.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 15, 2007)

dylanredefined said:
			
		

> Also whenever you finally get to hear the bnp speak they come over as a bunch of fuckwits anyway and I always come away thinking what was the fuss about. Give them all the publicity they can handle like a loathsome mould
> they will dry out and blow away.



They said that about Hitler in the 1920s and again, in the 1930s. 

Oh but it were true: that they'd just go away and crawl back under their moist rock piles.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 15, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Yes, this has already been covered - she only got to "promote" the BNP because she was publicly outed as a member.
> 
> 
> 
> How does she continue to promote it?



Attica's already covered that:



> Semantics... actually she is promoting it cos her £25 IS helping to promote the BNP via their publicity materials...


----------



## dylanredefined (Jan 15, 2007)

Its not germany in the 20 or 30s or haven't you realised that? The bnp is a nasty minority party who get far to much attention probably because of the anti fascist mob imho.I doubt the action at the ballet stoped me waking up tommorow in a fascist britain smacks too much of a witchhunt to me though.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Attica's already covered that:



Eh?  How has dancing in a ballet got anything to do with that?

The phrase "clutching at straws" comes to mind...


----------



## Tom A (Jan 15, 2007)

My 2p for what it's worth:

If you think this UAF demo against the "BNP ballerina" was counter-productive, what do YOU think should have been done instead? I for one don't agree with letting her peacefully being a member of the BNP and being in a prominent position. Oh and she HAS promoted the BNP though her HateMail interview and the £25 membership fee, as already mentioned, and surely after being exposed to this backlash she has had plenty of oppotunity to read up properly on the BNP, but she hasn't and still is a member, so one can assume she has no problems about the fact she supports a fascist party.

Individuals have responsibilities to their wider community, and one of them is not being a racist fucktard. If she was just some bitch gobbing off one in the street about how all blacks should be deported she would quite likely get some evil glares back at her best, or be leaving in an ambulance at worse. If you are going to spout unplesant views in public, you should expect to face the consequences.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 15, 2007)

dylanredefined said:
			
		

> Its not germany in the 20 or 30s or haven't you realised that? The bnp is a nasty minority party who get far to much attention probably because of the anti fascist mob imho.I doubt the action at the ballet stoped me waking up tommorow in a fascist britain smacks too much of a witchhunt to me though.



Anti-fascist mob? Pound to a penny most on this demo were middle-class and wouldn't say boo to a goose.

However, the antecedents of today’s far-right stem from the anti-immigration pressure groups operating in the 1950s and 60s. In particular, the Anti-Immigration Society (AIMS) and the Racial Preservation Society (RPS). Some of their membership was in later year’s instrumental in forming the National Front, which later spawned the BNP.

In the 50's and 60's, Colin Jordan, ‘future godfather’ of the extreme-right - led the National Socialist Movement (NSM) whose members had organised a campaign of arson attacks against Jewish synagogues. Dozens, mainly in London, were destroyed in an orgy of fire-raising, and NSM members later received hefty goal sentences for their part in it.

In an earlier period, another small and violent organisation, the White Defence League (WDL), which was also led by Jordan, made a name for itself by its violent intervention in the 1958 race riots in Notting Hill.

In 1988, the BNP bought a building in Upper Wickham Lane, Welling, which served as their headquarters. The BNP announced their arrival in no uncertain terms. The protest meeting called against it was attacked by 25 youths who set about the participants with chairs and clubs, hospitalising 12 people with injuries ranging from cuts to broken bones.

When the BNP emerged from the fragments of the National Front in 1986, part of their tactics were explicit in that direct physical force was an essential element of political action.

At the time, the criminal activities of some of their members ranged from bomb-making, organising illegal paramilitary groups, possession of firearms and a series of convictions under Race Relations and Public Order Acts.

While not all racist violence and harassment can be directly traced back to the activities of the far-right, the link between racial violence and the far-right has been well documented.

In 1985 a published report documented 400 cases of known fascists being convicted of offences, including 12 cases of murder, 14 of unlawful possessions of weapons, several convictions for bombing, arson and armed robbery and over 60 cases of violent assault.

Emphasis on electoral or violent methods is a matter of tactics rather than strategy. The same political outlook, social base and orientation often underlie both political thuggery and the suit wearing respectability of much of the extreme right. The organisations which constitute the two tactical faces of contemporary fascism also share members.

Now, you have every right to ignore the BNP and hope they go away if you want to (many people thought like that back in the 70's with regards to the NF, that had some 20,000 members by 1977), but some see it a different way and see it necessary to halt this latest fascist incarnation.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 15, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Eh?  How has dancing in a ballet got anything to do with that?



She has a BNP party card in her tutu.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 15, 2007)

dylanredefined said:
			
		

> Its not germany in the 20 or 30s or haven't you realised that? The bnp is a nasty minority party who get far to much attention probably because of the anti fascist mob imho.I doubt the action at the ballet stoped me waking up tommorow in a fascist britain smacks too much of a witchhunt to me though.



Your post is a tad elliptical.

MC5 says it pretty well.

It might be that if we/you/I sit back, we might just wake up one day in a country where the BNP are more than a nasty minority party. And then...ops! Too late!

Direct action. It's the way ahead.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Your post is a tad elliptical.
> 
> MC5 says it pretty well.
> 
> ...



Indeed, direct action is the way ahead, and Ben Franks in his book "Rebel Alliances" describes what is direct action and what is not very very well...


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 15, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Indeed, direct action is the way ahead, and Ben Franks in his book "Rebel Alliances" describes what is direct action and what is not very very well...



Ta. Will check it out. Do you think Houseman's will have it? I'm in the KX hood tomorrow.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> My 2p for what it's worth:
> 
> If you think this UAF demo against the "BNP ballerina" was counter-productive, what do YOU think should have been done instead?



I suggested a couple of things in post 213.  

As I've said, I really don't have a problem with people highlighting her mixture of nastiness and stupidity - and i'm not all that worried about ballet audiences  being disrupted (whether they were rich dudes or the £5 last minute ticket in the gods lot) - its just that this was inept


----------



## Wilf (Jan 15, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Ta. Will check it out. Do you think Houseman's will have it? I'm in the KX hood tomorrow.


the author will be speaking at this year's Projectile festival in Newcastle.  He doesn't know it yet, cos i've so far forgotten to invite him    

[you can get it from AK Press direct]


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Ta. Will check it out. Do you think Houseman's will have it? I'm in the KX hood tomorrow.



Housemans should have it... Sorry for delay but I logged off after my post...


----------



## oneflewover (Jan 16, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> How does she continue to promote it?



By not resigning her membership ?


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 16, 2007)

4thwrite said:
			
		

> the author will be speaking at this year's Projectile festival in Newcastle.  He doesn't know it yet, cos i've so far forgotten to invite him
> 
> [you can get it from AK Press direct]



Oops!



> Housemans should have it... Sorry for delay but I logged off after my post...



Ta. Will have a look this afternoon.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 16, 2007)

oneflewover said:
			
		

> By not resigning her membership ?



You'll have to explain that one to me.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 17, 2007)

from this weeks SW

No platform for the BNP ballerina
Simone Clarke is a principal dancer with the English National Ballet – and also a card carrying member of the fascist British National Party (BNP).

Unite Against Fascism protested last week outside her first performance since her support for the BNP was revealed.

Many liberal commentators have jumped to Clarke’s defence, claiming that her membership of a fascist organisation is a “personal view”.

But Clarke is not quietly keeping her opinions to herself – she gave a lengthy and unrepentant interview with the Mail on Sunday just before the new year where she showered praise on the BNP and its anti-immigration agenda.

The BNP’s entire purpose is to spread race hatred and violence. Despite recent attempts to appear “respectable”, it remains committed to removing all non-whites from Britain. 

It is not a legitimate political organisation and its activities should not be tolerated or normalised. That is why there is a longstanding principle of rigorously excluding fascists from public platforms. 

Clarke’s active membership of the BNP is incompatible with her high profile role in a publicly funded arts institution that has a responsibility to oppose racism. 

She has chosen to join the BNP – and so her involvement in the English National Ballet has to be terminated.

For a full report on the Unite protest go to Protest puts pressure on the BNP ballerina Simone Clarke


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 17, 2007)

Don't you have any opinions of your own?


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 17, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Don't you have any opinions of your own?




heaven forfend - that would be bourgeois individualism


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 17, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> They said that about Hitler in the 1920s and again, in the 1930s.
> 
> Oh but it were true: that they'd just go away and crawl back under their moist rock piles.


except the BNP are not a carbon copy of the NSDAP and are coming from a rather different place politically, and it's a bad error to compare like-for-like.
the main similarity is the thuggery


----------



## audiotech (Jan 17, 2007)

There's more here from Internationally-renowned pianist Ian Pace who writes on fascism in the Arts



> Simone Clarke has been a member of the BNP for 18 months and I believe goes to meetings as well - I find it hard to believe that she doesn’t have some idea of quite what sort of people are involved in this organisation. Their leader has espoused Holocaust denial, members have confessed to placing excrement through Asians’ letterboxes, others talked about wanting to launch rockets at mosques, the party espouse so-called ‘voluntary repatriation’, despises mixed-race relationships (making an exception in her case because they seem to feel they can benefit from her support), and is a thoroughly racist and homophobic organisation at the core.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 17, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> except the BNP are not a carbon copy of the NSDAP and are coming from a rather different place politically, and it's a bad error to compare like-for-like.
> the main similarity is the thuggery



I don't claim that the BNP are a carbon copy of the NSDAP. Their politics are as insidious and as dangerous to class solidarity, hence; I don't see a category error. 

Beyond word games and semantical nicities they need to be opposed accordingly.


----------



## JHE (Jan 18, 2007)

Simone Clarke is a member of Equity, the actors union.  In fact, she is an Equity 'deputy', i.e., a shop steward for her fellow dancers.

Equity is not going along with the UAF line.

*Union offers help to BNP ballerina*

Equity has offered its assistance to the ballerina at the centre of protests about her membership of the British National Party.

Simone Clarke, an English National Ballet principal and Equity deputy who was revealed as being a BNP member in December, was greeted by placards outside her final performance of Giselle this month, with members of the anti-racist Unite Against Fascism group calling for the company to sack her and some protesters reported to have shouted out at Clarke mid-performance inside the London Coliseum.

This week, Equity has come out in support of the performer’s right to work. According to the union’s rule 3B (p) it “acknowledge the right of individual members to hold and express their personal political and other beliefs both in their private and professional capacities”.

Equity spokesman Martin Brown added: “If ENB were to treat her unfairly, that is something we would expect to represent her for. The law forbids someone from being sacked for their legal political beliefs.

“We would protect her right to work and we would expect her to be treated as fairly as any other employee. We have offered help. We’ve said, if you need help, here we are.”

Brown stressed that, due to its rules, the union could take no view on her political beliefs and added that she had always been regarded as a good deputy, representing Equity within ENB and helping to deal with any problems faced by performers there. He added that she had in the past worked on behalf of dancers of non-British origin and had done so in a “fair and even-handed way”. Clarke’s partner and fellow dancer is, in fact, a Cuban of Chinese descent.

Performer and one-time Equity vice-president Dave Eager supported the union’s stance. He warned: “Where would it stop? People have a right to earn a living. If you don’t like them, don’t go to the theatre.”​

More:  http://www.thestage.co.uk/news/newsstory.php/15641/union-offers-help-to-bnp-ballerina


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Simone Clarke is a member of Equity, the actors union.  In fact, she is an Equity 'deputy', i.e., a shop steward for her fellow dancers.
> 
> Equity is not going along with the UAF line.
> 
> which shows what a worthless bunch of BNP- loving scabs they are. The fact that this fascist is a shop steward for them sums it all up.


----------



## Dubversion (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Equity is not going along with the UAF line.
> 
> which shows what a worthless bunch of BNP- loving scabs they are. The fact that this fascist is a shop steward for them sums it all up.



you're a genius 

it must be great being you - maintaining the simplistic naive black and white world of a 3 year old into your adult life. I'm almost  jealous


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> you're a genius
> 
> it must be great being you - maintaining the simplistic naive black and white world of a 3 year old into your adult life. I'm almost  jealous



so you get a "union" who purport to support the rights of fascists to work in the public sector- what is your preferred description of such scabbery?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> so you get a "union" who purport to support the rights of fascists to work in the public sector- what is your preferred description of such scabbery?



Although I disagree with the 'bnp ballerina' and what she belongs to it is good to see a union NOT slavishly following UAF.  A new approach is required for challenging this new breed of fascism and it is not the one used by Swappie front orgs like UAF.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> so you get a "union" who purport to support the rights of fascists to work in the public sector- what is your preferred description of such scabbery?



scabbery.  

 Brilliant. 

They purport to support the rights of their members of which she is one.
They are the opposite of scabs you fool. You are so  enshrined in your own propaganda you can't actually accept that someone has an opinion different to yours. And that you must attack this person until they come over to your way of thinking. Sounds exactly like ________ to me.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jan 18, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler Sounds exactly like ________ to me.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Trottery?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> scabbery.
> 
> Brilliant.
> 
> ...



but the TUC have made it clear- fascists cant be members of trades unions 

i accept people can have diferrent opinions of course- but you seem to defend the rights of fascists to organise, meet, stand for election and work in the public sector- which is a pretty strange point of view to have


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Although I disagree with the 'bnp ballerina' and what she belongs to it is good to see a union NOT slavishly following UAF.  A new approach is required for challenging this new breed of fascism and it is not the one used by Swappie front orgs like UAF.



But this is a new, and very healthy approach by UAF- workplace pickeds of fascists. It is a move towards the SWP`s militant antifascist roots, which should be supported.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But this is a new, and very healthy approach by UAF- workplace pickeds of fascists. It is a move towards the SWP`s militant antifascist roots, which should be supported.



No it isn't.  It sets a dangerous precedent in workplace harrassment.  I bet when some bnp boneheads turn up outside the workplaces of known leftwingers you'd start to whine.

I have no confidence in the 'SWP's militant anti facsist roots'  Having seen how SWP front orgs have stirred the shit in Dagenham and helped to increase BNP support and lied about their effectiveness in anti fa activities I wouldn't trust the SWP to tie their own shoelaces correctly.

BTW at least you have actually admitted that UAF is a Swappie front org.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> but the TUC have made it clear- fascists cant be members of trades unions
> 
> i accept people can have diferrent opinions of course- but you seem to defend the rights of fascists to organise, meet, stand for election and work in the public sector- which is a pretty strange point of view to have



Firstly, lets get this straight. I believe in free speech, and that people are entitled to their own opinions, also that people can stand for election and meet if they want to. That's the beauty of democracy, if you don't like someones opinion don't vote for them. Or offer a better alternative to ensure that they do not obtain power.
Which like I said before on this thread you ain't doing that. Yes, fascists are bad and you've got a sign on a stick, very good. Now for 150 points can you tell me (or more importantly the public) why fascism is bad and what you intend to do about it? Or how you intend to tackle the issues that the BNP are playing on?
Ps, the ballet ain't public sector, last time I checked tickets weren't free and I'm fairly sure that when she is working in her job she doesn't really have the opportunity to espouse those views you claim she is not entitled to have.


Or maybe I'm just a thug blackshirt. What do you reckon?


----------



## Bun (Jan 18, 2007)

No it isn't. It sets a dangerous precedent in workplace harrassment. 


Indeed. I mean, why should the state pay the wages of toy town trots who want to violantly overthrow that state?
All the UAF have done is the near impossible act of apearing more unpleasent than the BNP member they are attacking.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But this is a new, and very healthy approach by UAF- workplace pickeds of fascists. It is a move towards the SWP`s militant antifascist roots, which should be supported.


you mean "the SWP's hijacking and slow throttling of once-healthy antifascist organisations, accompanied by the most knuckleheaded counterproductive  antifascist tacrics ever, and the sound of the massed ranks of the BNP laughing at the swappies like drains as they pick up a new member each time".
and this one follows in that fine tradition


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 18, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> I don't claim that the BNP are a carbon copy of the NSDAP. Their politics are as insidious and as dangerous to class solidarity, hence; I don't see a category error.
> 
> Beyond word games and semantical nicities they need to be opposed accordingly.


OK fair enough misread you


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Agreed.  Another carefully aimed shot at UAF's own feet.  This is the sort of thing that alienates the white working classes from the left (funny how the swappies and thier front orgs like UAF are never there when services are being cut from WWC areas or when pensioners are being frozen and starved in their own homes but they are always there for publicity stunts like this) and also it gives the BNP more publicity than if people had just shrugged thier shoulders and said: 'OK its a posh vacuaous ballet dancer who doesn't think before putting pen to paper' and just ignored her.
> 
> FFS its not as if David Irving had been given a job teaching in a Tower Hamlets primary school is it.



*"This is the sort of thing that alienates the white working classes from the left"* 

 exactly .. know a lot of people who were ranting against these 'student wankers' and all agreed it just gives bnp publicity .. 

p.s. it seems to me that people are being pushed into an area where they think the bnp ( only the bnp) speaks for them even when they are fundamentally against the racism and anti w/c nature of the bnp.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 18, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> OK fair enough misread you




^ No problem.


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Completely counterpoductive, not to mention dangerous.  What if it sets a precedent for people being fired for having far left or anarchist views?



there is a lot of precedent for this ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> A lot of liberal, civil libertatian nonnsense here. Harrassing fascists at work is a well used and very effective tactic against them- the issue here is that her job is in the public sector- and it is illegal to employ fascists in the public sector. She was instructed to reconce here views, failed to listen to what was being told to here, and will pay the coinsequences by never working in her career again
> 
> A good by- product of this will be to discourage others from joinig the BNP



but it does not deal with the issues jim ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Ordianry people say immigration is a good thing- and welcome immigration. Those who oppose immigration dont need their views adressing- but opposing



jees how simplistic is that! 

you employ cheap labour??


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> No. It tells potential BNP members not to join, and existing ones that they must resign. It tells them there is a price to be paid for being a fascist.
> 
> I dont think you understand. This campaign is working class people using their power to stop the BNP organising- and when she is sacked- will give people more encouragement to give the fascists hell wherever, and whenever, they appear



so what you doing in covent garden instead of dagenham or oldham???


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Not the people I speak to - I am from scotland where there is genuine  outrage at immigration controls being imposed on us by Westminster. Open Borders is a genuinely popular policy
> 
> When they tried to deport one lad from shetland- a third of the polulation signed a petition up there to oppose this. In glasgow- many deportations have besn physically stopped by ordinary working class people
> 
> As you say- maybe it is a london thing. If anyone  or any groups, tried to oppose immigration up here, they would last 5 minuites



you misunderstand .. there have been many campaigns against deportations of refugees in englands too .. the discussion down here is about mass economic migration for cheap labour

p.s. not being horrible but HOW long you been in london .. you don't seem to get what is going on


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But the BNP are fascists. Its a simple desciption of their worldview- not a term of abuse



but jim why do the bnp exist??? becuase of policies by the bosses and govt .. and do i see you and your ilk getting as excited about the domestic policies?? no .. and then think why people gravitate toward the bnp


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You're entitled to your opinion, but in this case you're wrong and will be seen to be so.



judging by the votes for the continually rising votes for the bnp mc it seems blag is right and YOU are wrong


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

The Sick Anchor said:
			
		

> if there's no going back to the 70s/80s, you should surely realise that militant anti fascism as a tactic is pretty pointless in the current day, you've got to attack what the right are attacking with, and that's not fists & bottles, it's ideas & policies that are resonating with a large chunk of the very part of society that the left has failed (which you blanketly write off as racist fuck wits), and will continue to fail if they stick to cobweb type tactics as their central plank of anti-facism



top post


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> feel free. You and Jim and the rest can continue to alienate the very people you're claiming to be fighting for, ignoring advice / criticisms from people who might actually have a similar worldview and might - just might - also have a clue. Bound to be a terribly effective way of getting things done, good luck



dub i may not always agree with you but i think your posts on this thread have been excellent


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Goon.
> 
> Some on here seem to think that fascists have the right to free speech? I don't, ballerina, or not. If she denies that she is a fascist and just "concerned abour immigration" then she has the option to bail out now and join an organisation like Hackney Independent for example.



sad


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Something I think is important is political accountability. Too often in anarchist circles there is no political accountability, and fascists should be made to accept the consequences of having anti social opinions...
> 
> ...



no one disagrees .. the arguement is over whether this is a usefull event .. it is not in fact it is actually counter productive ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But this is a new, and very healthy approach by UAF- workplace pickeds of fascists. It is a move towards the SWP`s militant antifascist roots, which should be supported.



yet again mate you totally fail to understand why the bnp are increasing and that challenging the symptoms usually, and especially in this case, is counter productive as opposed to dealing with the  casuses


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> but the TUC have made it clear- fascists cant be members of trades unions
> 
> i accept people can have diferrent opinions of course- but you seem to defend the rights of fascists to organise, meet, stand for election and work in the public sector- which is a pretty strange point of view to have


so ermm if a 'fascist' (and the BNP are euro ultra-nationalists, NOT fascists) adopt the time-honoured fash stratagem of covert entry and organisation, what the hell you gonna do then?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> I have no confidence in the 'SWP's militant anti facsist roots'  Having seen how SWP front orgs have stirred the shit in Dagenham and helped to increase BNP support and lied about their effectiveness in anti fa activities I wouldn't trust the SWP to tie their own shoelaces correctly.
> 
> to give the SWP their historical dues, it was they, and only they, who stopped the NF in the 70s, by propaganda, rock against racism- kicking the NF off the streets, and yes, harrasment of prominent fascists at work- Bustem Motram, a tennis player of the day was given hell every time he turned up for a tournament. as tactics suited to the day- it worked
> 
> ...


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but it does not deal with the issues jim ..



there is not just one issue. the primary issue with the bnp is creating a political alternative to them - but another is doing whatever it takes to arrest their progress. in propaganda terms alone, this was one of the best actions by a left organisation for ages against the BNP- with an uncompromising refusal to allow the BNP to operate on any level, anywhere


----------



## JimPage (Jan 18, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> Which like I said before on this thread you ain't doing that. Yes, fascists are bad and you've got a sign on a stick, very good. Now for 150 points can you tell me (or more importantly the public) why fascism is bad and what you intend to do about it? Or how you intend to tackle the issues that the BNP are playing on?
> 
> as to issues, firstly by denying them a voice to raise the issues in the first place, by denying them a platform. secondly, by putting over better arguements
> 
> ...


----------



## chilango (Jan 18, 2007)

Surely the point is to stop her being a fascist, not stop her being a dancer?

The UAF miss this point.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> to give the SWP their historical dues, it was they, and only they, who stopped the NF in the 70s,



I'm not sure if this is strictly accurate.


Anyone?


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Boris Sprinkler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Giles (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> there is not just one issue. the primary issue with the bnp is creating a political alternative to them - but another is doing whatever it takes to arrest their progress. in propaganda terms alone, this was one of the best actions by a left organisation for ages against the BNP- with an uncompromising refusal to allow the BNP to operate on any level, anywhere



It didn't work though, did it?

The protestors ended up looking like louts, and the BNP looked like the reasonable ones (appearances can be deceptive I know!).

It also got the BNP a load of free publicity.

Giles..


----------



## audiotech (Jan 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> judging by the votes for the continually rising votes for the bnp mc it seems blag is right and YOU are wrong



No, as I was referring to that specific action in the now and as jim notes, that activity has a historical and political precedent for success in denying fascists a space to organise, despite what your 'mates' tell you.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> sad



I thought you would welcome new memebers to HI.


----------



## Reese (Jan 18, 2007)

*Nf*

It was the Thatcher Government who actually sunk the NF, the tories adopted the fascists policies,..... "we are being swamped" etc. Of course this was just a ploy but it did the trick.  ANL appeared quite late in the day having given the NF time to establish itself.


----------



## Giles (Jan 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> since 2000, when public sector organisations had a duty to promote good race relations. she can`t do this as a fascist- therefore cant work for a publically funded organisation



Quote me the statute under which it is "illegal to employ fascists in the public sector".

Does this law actually define "fascist" as "anyone who is a member of < a list of presumed fascist organisations>", or in some other way?

Whose responsibility is it to check that their employees are not fascists? 

What powers do employers have to investigate staff for fascist behaviour or beliefs?

I have never heard of such a law, and in fact I doubt that one exists.

Giles..


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 18, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is strictly accurate.
> 
> 
> Anyone?


no of course it fucking wasn't.  
it was REAL autonomous groups who sprung up especially in london but also elsewhere, plus the rise of black self-help organisations due to the black community being at the end of their tether, which arrested their rise, like on occasions such as the lewisham by-election, plus - i'd like to think - the innate good sense of the british people led them to tell the BNP to piss off at the ballot box
but most of all - as reese pointed out - maggie took the wind out of their sails.
you didn't nearly fall for swappie propaganda did you?


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 18, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> you didn't nearly fall for swappie propaganda did you?



No, just wasn't too sure of the historical facts.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 18, 2007)

Reese said:
			
		

> It was the Thatcher Government who actually sunk the NF, the tories adopted the fascists policies,..... "we are being swamped" etc. Of course this was just a ploy but it did the trick.  ANL appeared quite late in the day having given the NF time to establish itself.



"we are being swamped" is not a policy held by any party. Forced repatriation was a policy of the NF. The tories had expunged from the tory party anyone who held such a view long before Thatcher, with the expulsion of Enoch Powell after his 'Rivers of Blood' speech in the sixties.

The left held the view for some time that people should 'ignore them and they will go away' sort of stuff. That changed over time. Success was achieved against the fascists by politically uniting the left in a campaign denying them a space to organise in.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 18, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> no of course it fucking wasn't.
> it was REAL autonomous groups who sprung up especially in london but also elsewhere, plus the rise of black self-help organisations due to the black community being at the end of their tether, which arrested their rise, like on occasions such as the lewisham by-election, plus - i'd like to think - the innate good sense of the british people led them to tell the BNP to piss off at the ballot box
> but most of all - as reese pointed out - maggie took the wind out of their sails.
> you didn't nearly fall for swappie propaganda did you?



Ooop north it wer not like that.


----------



## JHE (Jan 18, 2007)

Giles said:
			
		

> It didn't work though, did it?
> 
> The protestors ended up looking like louts, and the BNP looked like the reasonable ones (appearances can be deceptive I know!).
> 
> ...



- Right!  Your name vill also go on ze list! Vot is it?

- Don't tell him, Giles!


----------



## happie chappie (Jan 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> "we are being swamped" is not a policy held by any party. Forced repatriation was a policy of the NF. *The tories had expunged from the tory party anyone who held such a view long before Thatcher, with the expulsion of Enoch Powell after his 'Rivers of Blood' speech in the sixties.*QUOTE]
> 
> Compete and utter bollocks - more parroted Swappie analysis. Get your facts right - Powell wasn't expelled from the Tory party. He left of his own volition in 1974, six years AFTER his Rivers of Blood speech. The Monday Club, which was pretty much an Enoch Powell fan club, wasn't suspended from the Tory party until 2001.
> 
> Happie Chappie


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jan 19, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> KeyboardJockey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Ooop north it wer not like that.


fair enough but the real explosive growth of the BNP was in the south and (to alesser extent) the midlands


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Never.  Still a member of a fascist party last time I looked.


except she isn't. the BNP have radically repositioned themselves and in so doing have gulled the lot of you into continuing to scream 'fascist. they are instead a euro-ultranationalist, racist party. the spirit of mussolini liveth not in their ideology, however much you may wish it were so.
The closest analogy is Le pen.


----------



## Tom A (Jan 19, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> except she isn't. the BNP have radically repositioned themselves and in so doing have gulled the lot of you into continuing to scream 'fascist. they are instead a euro-ultranationalist, racist party. the spirit of mussolini liveth not in their ideology, however much you may wish it were so.
> The closest analogy is Le pen.


But the point remains that if they were to get into any prominent postitions of government it would be A Very Bad Thing To Happen.

Also Griffin admitted this veneer of respectability is only a ruse to ensure they get a good press, if they ever got powerful enough, back on go the jackboots.


----------



## Reese (Jan 19, 2007)

*Nf*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> "we are being swamped" is not a policy held by any party. Forced repatriation was a policy of the NF. The tories had expunged from the tory party anyone who held such a view long before Thatcher, with the expulsion of Enoch Powell after his 'Rivers of Blood' speech in the sixties.
> 
> The left held the view for some time that people should 'ignore them and they will go away' sort of stuff. That changed over time. Success was achieved against the fascists by politically uniting the left in a campaign denying them a space to organise in.



In fact Thacher made a statement after Asian youths attacked a pub in Southall that "we are being swamped!". I don't know if you call this a policy or not but a lot of racist voters switched voting from the NF to the tories.

Neither waving  yellow lolipops or throwing house bricks stopped the NF, the bottom fell out of their organisation when the tories stole their clothes at the General Election of 1979.  If anything I would guess ANL helped the fascists recruit youngsters !


----------



## tbaldwin (Jan 19, 2007)

JimPage
to give the SWP their historical dues said:
			
		

> _*To give the SWP their historical dues also worth pointing out that people who organised the hit squads in the 70s thru the ANL were usually SWP members..
> Most of the active ones were expelled from the SWP and some went on to form Red Action.
> This period is covered in excellent fashion by a RA pamphlet by Mick O Farrell.
> 
> ...


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 19, 2007)

Reese said:
			
		

> In fact Thacher made a statement after Asian youths attacked a pub in Southall that "we are being swamped!". I don't know if you call this a policy or not but a lot of racist voters switched voting from the NF to the tories.
> 
> Neither waving  yellow lolipops or throwing house bricks stopped the NF, the bottom fell out of their organisation when the tories stole their clothes at the General Election of 1979.  If anything I would guess ANL helped the fascists recruit youngsters !



Off topic but that attack was due to a load of skinhead bands, 4 skins, I forget which others, playing the Hambro Arms slap in the middle of Southall, biggest Indian community outside of India. THe NF turned up and decided to provoke the situation. 
The Southall residents fought back, the Hambro arms is still a shell. 
The SWPies were in Reading shouting at a cat that looked a bit like Mussolini.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 19, 2007)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> Off topic but that attack was due to a load of skinhead bands, 4 skins, I forget which others, playing the Hambro Arms slap in the middle of Southall, biggest Indian community outside of India. THe NF turned up and decided to provoke the situation.
> The Southall residents fought back, the Hambro arms is still a shell.
> The SWPies were in Reading shouting at a cat that looked a bit like Mussolini.



That's how I remember it. Not sure about the cat though.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 19, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> But the point remains that if they were to get into any prominent postitions of government it would be A Very Bad Thing To Happen.


please show me wherever I said it wasn't. because OF BLOODY COURSE I  THINK IT WOULD BE. 
But you are missing the point by a mile; by reducing your critique of the BNP to a shrill and wholly inaccurate scream of 'fascist' a la swappies, you make it impossible to fully understand thine enemy, and therefore render yourself incapable of arresting their progress. They are NOT a fascist party - more to the point they can show this to their target voters, and m,ake you look bad in the process  



> Also Griffin admitted this veneer of respectability is only a ruse to ensure they get a good press, if they ever got powerful enough, back on go the jackboots


prolly, but mislabelling them is a damn good way of helping them get ever nearer to those jackboots.


----------



## untethered (Jan 19, 2007)

Apologies if I missed it earlier in the thread, but how would you categorise the BNP, Red Jezza?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 19, 2007)

happie chappie said:
			
		

> MC5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## audiotech (Jan 19, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> except she isn't. the BNP have radically repositioned themselves and in so doing have gulled the lot of you into continuing to scream 'fascist. they are instead a euro-ultranationalist, racist party. the spirit of mussolini liveth not in their ideology, however much you may wish it were so.
> The closest analogy is Le pen.



Whose number two has been sentenced to a three-month suspended jail sentence and fine for questioning the Nazi Holocaust. Bruno Gollnisch, who is number two in the French National Front, questioned the Nazis' use of gas chambers to murder Jews in World War II. 

On Thursday a Lyon court convicted him of "disputing a crime against humanity" and fined him 5,000 euros (£3,284). He was also ordered to pay 55,000 euros in damages to various plaintiffs.

Nazi scum!


----------



## audiotech (Jan 19, 2007)

Reese said:
			
		

> In fact Thacher made a statement after Asian youths attacked a pub in Southall that "we are being swamped!". I don't know if you call this a policy or not but a lot of racist voters switched voting from the NF to the tories.
> 
> Neither waving  yellow lolipops or throwing house bricks stopped the NF, the bottom fell out of their organisation when the tories stole their clothes at the General Election of 1979.  If anything I would guess ANL helped the fascists recruit youngsters !



The "winter of discontent" and Callaghan's response to it had more of a factor in NF support than Thatcher's 'swamp' statement. Thatcher of course was probably advised that the swamp statement would bolster the tories vote to some degree.

You would guess wrong on your latter point, as I remember on a weekly basis a number of potential fascist recruits (sympathies to the NF) used to turn up to RAR events. We took time out to discuss the error of their ways, as did others nationally.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Whose number two has been sentenced to a three-month suspended jail sentence and fine for questioning the Nazi Holocaust. Bruno Gollnisch, who is number two in the French National Front, questioned the Nazis' use of gas chambers to murder Jews in World War II.
> 
> On Thursday a Lyon court convicted him of "disputing a crime against humanity" and fined him 5,000 euros (£3,284). He was also ordered to pay 55,000 euros in damages to various plaintiffs.
> 
> Nazi scum!


Never said they weren't utter wankers and they have a fair few full-on fash in their ranks; however in the minds of the french public - which is after all, what counts, not your or my opinion - that (i.e. my description) is how they were seen


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 19, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> Apologies if I missed it earlier in the thread, but how would you categorise the BNP, Red Jezza?


where they are right now is racist euro-ultranationalists a la le pen & co pr vlaams blok, at least that is how they are - very cleverly and quite successfully - presenting themselves to the UK w/c.
i.e. the totalitarianism that is the no 1 ingredient with the NSDAP is nopt there, at least not visibly so nor the folkmyth weirdo-paganism.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 19, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> Never said they weren't utter wankers and they have a fair few full-on fash in their ranks; however in the minds of the french public - which is after all, what counts, not your or my opinion - that (i.e. my description) is how they were seen



Have you a survey I can look at?


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Have you a survey I can look at?


that sort of thing is very different to op-poll, I'm going by my (extensive) first hand experience of france and the french


----------



## dolly's gal (Jan 20, 2007)

racialist


----------



## JimPage (Jan 20, 2007)

Giles said:
			
		

> Quote me the statute under which it is "illegal to employ fascists in the public sector".
> 
> Does this law actually define "fascist" as "anyone who is a member of < a list of presumed fascist organisations>", or in some other way?
> 
> ...



Race Relations acts- which make it obligitory for all public secotr workers to promote good race realtions.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 20, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> JimPage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JimPage (Jan 20, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> _*To give the SWP their historical dues also worth pointing out that people who organised the hit squads in the 70s thru the ANL were usually SWP members..
> Most of the active ones were expelled from the SWP and some went on to form Red Action.
> This period is covered in excellent fashion by a RA pamphlet by Mick O Farrell.
> 
> ...



Not again denying the central role of the Squads in history. Why do you think the SWP could not return to those days though? They are the only english group woth the numbers to make any difference


----------



## Tom A (Jan 20, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> i.e. *the totalitarianism that is the no 1 ingredient with the NSDAP is (sic)nopt there*, at least not visibly so nor the folkmyth weirdo-paganism.


But if heaven forbid if we ever had a BNP government, their policies would soon make that government a totalitarian one.

As for the "folkmyth weirdo-paganism", the BNP may not be directly involved with that at the moment, but many senior BNP members still maintain links with Combat 18 and Blood and Honour (even though the BNP publicly has nothing to do with them), where such folkmyths do have a promince. Also there was some rune symbol which was used for the Young BNP logo, although it has been a few years since I went onto their sordid site.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Jan 20, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Have you a survey I can look at?


election results..?


----------



## Giles (Jan 20, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Race Relations acts- which make it obligitory for all public secotr workers to promote good race realtions.



But does this Act mean that employers can freely sack people for being a member of a party deemed "fascist"? Has any employer ever done this to  an employee? If so, example?

And is this requirement to "promote good race relations" defined any more precisely than those words?

More to the point, does it not apply only to the employee's behaviour in carrying out their work duties, and not to their personal opinions? 

For example, if you were responsible for choosing who gets social housing, and you sat there and told a black person "you are a n****r so you go to the back of the queue", this would obviously be wrong, but if you are a dancer, your job is to dance, and that's all. Unless you danced around wearing a swastika, or danced in a peculiarly fascist way, or something?

I can't see that a requirement to "promote good race relations" in terms of DOING YOUR JOB can be expanded to effectively telling people what political parties they can and cannot support in their own time.

Giles..

GIles..


----------



## JimPage (Jan 21, 2007)

Giles

here is the legal position on the emoploment of the fascist - this situation will be monitored and if the facist isnt sacked soon, a repeat visit must be oin the cards



UAF understands that there are clearly different views and misconceptions ab out our position on this matter, which need to be clarified. 

UAF believes that the Race Relations Amendment Act applies to the English National Ballet (ENB) as a publicly funded organisation. We think that Simone Clarke’s membership of the BNP and her comments to the Mail on Sunday contravene this. We accept that some people disagree with us. However regardless of what one’s views are on the outset the only proper way to resolve this matter is for the ENB to conduct an investigation. 

UAF believes that Clarke should be suspended pending this investigation and that she should be removed from her position as principal dancer. 

Historically fascists have destroyed freedom of speech, expression, artistic expression and other liberal freedoms. UAF supports freedom of speech and expression. However there is no such thing as total freedom of speech. There are various legislation against discrimination including incitement to racial hatred laws and race relations laws. We are simply calling for an investigation under existing legislation. 

The BNP is using Clarke’s membership to court respectability and disguise the true reality of their politics of hate and to make themselves appear to be respectable. This was proven by the attendance at the performance of several BNP members including the leader of the BNP group on Barking and Dagenham Council Richard Barnbrook. 

UAF believes this is further example of why the ENB must investigate Clarke and her membership of the BNP, as the BNP’s presence at Friday’s performance is likely to put off black, minority ethnic, Jewish, Muslim, lesbian, gay communities, disabled people and other communities that the BNP and fascists target, from participating in ballet. 

Many have claimed that the BNP is a not a proscribed organisation in Britain, and is therefore a legitimate political party. However it is clear that the BNP do not act as legitimate parties do.* The BNP try to hide and prettify their true nature they remain a fascist and violent party who are opposed to democracy. 

We have communicated our views to the ENB both verbally in our meeting and in writing. We were told that our views would be communicated to other board members. We will contact the ENB to discuss progress in this respect. UAF will continue to campaign for public clarification from the ENB.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 21, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> But if heaven forbid if we ever had a BNP government, their policies would soon make that government a totalitarian one.


you know do you? you're certain are yoyu?
no you AREN'T - more like the Greek colonels or latin american far-right plus  racial exclusion as 
Tom A - for god's sake  stop wilfully misubderstanding me, anmd start reading what I say properly. the whole point is that whilst you reduce your whole critique of what the BNP are about to a simple, shrill cry of 'FASCIST!' , you totally fail to grasp the image of themselves they have sold - far, far more successfully than people like yoyu have countersold - to the white w/c in areas hit by large-scale immigration; In fact, the level of your argument is the single biggest asset to the BNP, and the biggest handicap to effectively countering them. the BNP's best weapon is their hopelessly outflanked opponents.
for god's sake stop confusing surface impressions - i.e. as the public see them, _which is what we must counter_ - with the submerged reality - which is what we defeat _by countering the surface impression_.
jesus the left is so fucking obtuse sometimes....


> As for the "folkmyth weirdo-paganism", the BNP may not be directly involved with that at the moment, but many senior BNP members still maintain links with Combat 18 and Blood and Honour (even though the BNP publicly has nothing to do with them), where such folkmyths do have a promince. Also there was some rune symbol which was used for the Young BNP logo, although it has been a few years since I went onto their sordid site


do I deny this, and so what anyway?


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 21, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Giles
> 
> here is the legal position on the emoploment of the fascist - this situation will be monitored and if the facist isnt sacked soon, a repeat visit must be oin the cards
> 
> ...


just one teensy-weensy probboe, Jim me ol' mate;
The ENB is NOT a state owned, public sector body, but an indepepndent charitable trust which receives oodles of funding from the DNH, arts council etc.
Therefore Ms Clarke is NOT a public sector employee. never heard of the 3rd sector?


----------



## Tom A (Jan 21, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> more like the Greek colonels or latin american far-right plus  racial exclusion


Which in the end of the day were just as nasty to their proletariat as Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, and Franco's Spain was.



> whilst you reduce your whole critique of what the BNP are about to a simple, shrill cry of 'FASCIST!'


Where do I do that then, huh? All I said is what should be a very obvious statement, that a BNP government would still be a bad thing to happen, regardless of whatever term you label them with. The wolf is still a wolf, even if it has donned some particualrly convincing sheeps clothing. Oh and of course I bloody know that the tactics that saw off the "traditional" fascists will not be of much use against the modern day fascists, I never said that was the case.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 21, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> Which in the end of the day were just as nasty to their proletariat as Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, and Franco's Spain was.
> 
> Where do I do that then, huh? All I said is what should be a very obvious statement, that a BNP government would still be a bad thing to happen, regardless of whatever term you label them with. The wolf is still a wolf, even if it has donned some particualrly convincing sheeps clothing. Oh and of course I bloody know that the tactics that saw off the "traditional" fascists will not be of much use against the modern day fascists, I never said that was the case.


oh FFS! Well, thank you for that brilliantly perceptive contribution to the _Janet and John guide to UK politics_. Of course I fucking know that a BNP govt would be an awful thing - why do you think I've been figjhting the fuckers for the past 20 years?? It's not fucking difficult to work that out.
The whole point which you've missed is that by applying the wrong bad label - as you have done throughout here - you make it as easy as piss for them to say "no, we don't deserve any bad label at all" to their target voters,   (marginalised white urban w/c) on the groubnds that all their opponents must be lying, if they're lying over that fine-hair difference.
it is precisekly this dumbass countering strategy taht has played into their hands.
we ALL know how awful they are.
<weeps with frustration>


----------



## untethered (Jan 21, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> here is the legal position on the emoploment of the fascist - this situation will be monitored and if the facist isnt sacked soon, a repeat visit must be oin the cards



If we can't get out way by law or political persuasion, we'll use intimidation and coercion. 




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> UAF understands that there are clearly different views and misconceptions ab out our position on this matter, which need to be clarified.
> 
> UAF believes that the Race Relations Amendment Act applies to the English National Ballet (ENB) as a publicly funded organisation. We think that Simone Clarke’s membership of the BNP and her comments to the Mail on Sunday contravene this. We accept that some people disagree with us. However regardless of what one’s views are on the outset the only proper way to resolve this matter is for the ENB to conduct an investigation.
> 
> UAF believes that Clarke should be suspended pending this investigation and that she should be removed from her position as principal dancer.



Suspended pending the investigation and sacked from her job? Surely the sacking, if it happens at all, should follow the investigation. Or perhaps that's what you meant.

The only grounds for suspension pending an investigation is where there is some particular harm likely to be caused in the meantime. Has Clarke caused any harm while she's been dancing? What risks are there in allowing her to continue to dance?




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> Historically fascists have destroyed freedom of speech, expression, artistic expression and other liberal freedoms. UAF supports freedom of speech and expression. However there is no such thing as total freedom of speech. There are various legislation against discrimination including incitement to racial hatred laws and race relations laws. We are simply calling for an investigation under existing legislation.



Historically, communists and socialists have done that too. UAF doesn't strike me as being a "liberal" organisation. It's not very liberal to hound someone from their job for belonging to a legal political party.




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> The BNP is using Clarke’s membership to court respectability and disguise the true reality of their politics of hate and to make themselves appear to be respectable. This was proven by the attendance at the performance of several BNP members including the leader of the BNP group on Barking and Dagenham Council Richard Barnbrook.



Why is it anyone's business which cultural pursuits members of legal political parties want to enjoy?




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> UAF believes this is further example of why the ENB must investigate Clarke and her membership of the BNP, as the BNP’s presence at Friday’s performance is likely to put off black, minority ethnic, Jewish, Muslim, lesbian, gay communities, disabled people and other communities that the BNP and fascists target, from participating in ballet.



But does it? Are minorities now intimidated from going to the ballet because of a BNP member dancing?

More's the point, what makes you think that such people from minority groups (or otherwise) need a group like UAF to help them boycott the ballet if they so choose and make their views known to the ENB?

I'm quite sure that a few letters from regular ballet goers will have far more impact than the intervention of a simiarly extreme political group.




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> Many have claimed that the BNP is a not a proscribed organisation in Britain, and is therefore a legitimate political party. However it is clear that the BNP do not act as legitimate parties do.* The BNP try to hide and prettify their true nature they remain a fascist and violent party who are opposed to democracy.



That's a matter for the Home Office. If you believe that the BNP are acting in a way that's unlawful, you should forward your evidence to them. If not, they remain, by definition, legitimate. You do not make the law.




			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> We have communicated our views to the ENB both verbally in our meeting and in writing. We were told that our views would be communicated to other board members. We will contact the ENB to discuss progress in this respect. UAF will continue to campaign for public clarification from the ENB.



Have fun.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 22, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> Suspended pending the investigation and sacked from her job? Surely the sacking, if it happens at all, should follow the investigation. Or perhaps that's what you meant.


 <quotes fixed - FM>

am quite happy with sacking on the spot for being a fascist. its an open and shut case- she has admitted to being a fascist and has refused to resign from the BNP. 

The only grounds for suspension pending an investigation is where there is some particular harm likely to be caused in the meantime. Has Clarke caused any harm while she's been dancing? What risks are there in allowing her to continue to dance?

The risk is that if people allow her to maintain her job, other public sector workers may think they allowed to join the BNP without there being consequences. 

Historically, communists and socialists have done that too. UAF doesn't strike me as being a "liberal" organisation. It's not very liberal to hound someone from their job for belonging to a legal political party.

For reasons well know, the BNP are not a legal political party- and i cant speak for UAF- but militiant antifascism is by its nature opposed tot he notion that the right of free speech or association should be extended to fascists- such an idea is absurd


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 22, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> she has admitted to being a fascist



Has she?


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 22, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> untethered said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


except where the BNP are at is neither, fundamentally, fascism nor nazism but FN-esque euro ultranationalism with a side order of allround bigotry, and every time you seek to reduce it to the simplicities of Berlin'33 or Rome, 1920s, you play right into their hands and make it infinitely harderto argue them to pieces or combat them


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 22, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> The risk is that if people allow her to maintain her job, other public sector workers may think they allowed to join the BNP without there being consequences.


except ahe's not a public sector worker; the state does NOT own the ENB, or the RO, or the ENO. 


> For reasons well know, the BNP are not a legal political party


SORRY??? They damn well are!!! an utterly loathsome one, but still 100% legal. how the pissflaps do you think they get to stand in (and win) elections ffs?


----------



## treelover (Jan 22, 2007)

dangerous rubbish, god i wonder what a Page govt would be like, 


actually Jim, your not an SWP member why do have these Mccartyhite views



> am quite happy with sacking on the spot for being a fascist. its an open and shut case- she has admitted to being a fascist and has refused to resign from the BNP.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 23, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> dangerous rubbish, god i wonder what a Page govt would be like,
> 
> actually Jim, your not an SWP member why do have these Mccartyhite views



I have no sympathy with McCartyism- am just loyal to that well established principle of the left- No Platform for Fascists- which is as relevant today as in 1977.

 It is not saying that this sort of activity has to be the primary acticity of the left- the main one of course is building a political alternative to them in the wards they operate in- but if the opportunity arises to get a prominent fascist the sack- tactically- it makes sense


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 24, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> I have no sympathy with McCartyism- am just loyal to that well established principle of the left- No Platform for Fascists- which is as relevant today as in 1977.
> 
> It is not saying that this sort of activity has to be the primary acticity of the left- the main one of course is building a political alternative to them in the wards they operate in- but if the opportunity arises to get a prominent fascist the sack- tactically- it makes sense


except
a) FOR THE UMPTEENTH FUCKING TIME the BNP have moved on to a different political posiiton to where they were in 1977, and until you recognise that you don't have a hope of turning their voters against them
and
b) all your campaign actually did was to get ENB staff (stage and non-stage) and audience massively against you, and by implication the anti-BNP cause. 
In other words, own goal of the year - and it's still only january.
nice one.


----------



## exosculate (Jan 24, 2007)

People like JimPage seriously scare me.


----------



## untethered (Jan 24, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> For reasons well know, the BNP are not a legal political party- and i cant speak for UAF- but militiant antifascism is by its nature opposed tot he notion that the right of free speech or association should be extended to fascists- such an idea is absurd



You must have some strange idea of what a legal political party is. It's certainly not one that corresponds with the law. They are registered with the Electoral Commission, they contest elections, they are a legal party. That's it, really.

Please sort out the quoting in your posts so that no-one confuses your bizarre ideas with mine.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 24, 2007)

exosculate said:
			
		

> People like JimPage seriously scare me.


they don't scare me, for the good and simple reason that I know no-one of sense will ever take them seriously in any way. They do, however, depress me when I ponder that such 5-watt swapbots are what passes for Left activism in the UK nowadays. THAT is the tragedy.


----------



## exosculate (Jan 24, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> they don't scare me, for the good and simple reason that I know no-one of sense will ever take them seriously in any way. They do, however, depress me when I ponder that such 5-watt swapbots are what passes for Left activism in the UK nowadays. THAT is the tragedy.




If Jims type of _leftism_ gained any influence it would be very damaging. I hope you're right. It is very tragic too I agree.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 24, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> they don't scare me, for the good and simple reason that I know no-one of sense will ever take them seriously in any way. They do, however, depress me when I ponder that such 5-watt swapbots are what passes for Left activism in the UK nowadays. THAT is the tragedy.



thank you for your kind word, "Red" jezza. perhaps try to consider that if traditional antifascism isnt working (which it clearly isn`t) there may be new ways of combatting them to be found, and old ones re-discovered


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 24, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> thank you for your kind word, "Red" jezza. perhaps try to consider that if traditional antifascism isnt working (which it clearly isn`t) there may be new ways of combatting them to be found, and old ones re-discovered


sunshine, I was engaged in genuine anti-fascist and other 'red' activities, whilst you were still in your first year at prep school - and risking my life for it too. I do NOT need teenage idiot swappies to start telling me how to combat the BNP when you are so utterly fucking hopeless at it. I CERTAINLY don't need some pimply stude to tell me how to go about something I understand better than you ever will.
 WHEN you have FINALLY grasped that where the BNP are at, right now, bears ZERO relation to the stock image of 'fascism' in your 'mind'....
WHEN you have finally realised that where the BNP are at right now is resonating with uncomfortable lafrge swathes of the white working class you seem to have zero understanding or knoqwledge of...
WHEN you have outgrown the time-honoured SWP tradition of alienating as many people as possible by talking at them and talking down to them...
when ALL these things have happened then you may possibly be worth taking seriously. 
run along junior, it's january freshers night...


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 24, 2007)

fridge magnet - YOU ARE A FUCKING LEGEND!!!  
<BOWS DOWN>


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 24, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> I do NOT need teenage idiot swappies to start telling me how to combat the BNP when you are so utterly fucking hopeless at it. I CERTAINLY don't need some pimply stude to tell me how to go about something I understand better than you ever will.



Lol. Okay, RedJezza. Your frustration is, erm, palpable.

I'm interested to know how you think the BNP should be combated, or stopped etc, etc. Does direct action e.g. Antifa/AFA/Red London have a role to play? Or should the 'fascists' be allowed a platform and left to dig their own hole? Or is the solution somewhere between the two? 

The BNP has certainly bought itself a new shiny, nasty cheap suit: rather like some of its members. And it seems as if the fluff and the icing on their nasty cake has been enough to throw the Left into despair and confusion...

Mangling my metaphors but I think you catch my drift.

I'm interested: what is the way forward, RJ?


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 24, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Lol. Okay, RedJezza. Your frustration is, erm, palpable.
> 
> I'm interested to know how you think the BNP should be combated, or stopped etc, etc. Does direct action e.g. Antifa/AFA/Red London have a role to play? Or should the 'fascists' be allowed a platform and left to dig their own hole? Or is the solution somewhere between the two?
> 
> ...


OK. the single biggest change in the situation is that the BNP are clearly having an unprecedented - worryingly so - success in getting their message through to the (traditional) bedrock of the LP; the white working classes.
This is NOT a localised phenomena either - dagenham and burnley are a very, very long way apart, viewed within the overall context of the UK; the only thing that unites them is that they are traditional bastions of the white working class that have seen high levels of immigration over the past decade or so; immigration from asia, from 'new' europe, via asylum seekers. 
The fact remains that this white working class is the class that got shafted by thatcher - and then left behind by New Labour. The ONLY group, of any size, that seems to be getting a message through to them is the only group that seems - to them - to be putting their concerns first; the BNP.
Immigration has been used by govt and the bossclass alike (the two are closely entwined but not identical) to shaft workers; the home crowd by driving their wages downwards, and by dumping immigrants on their already hard pressed communities, either directly or by dint of simply letting untrammelled market forces do their work, and their worst.
gotta go now, will develop this theme further tomorrow.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 24, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> gotta go now, will develop this theme further tomorrow.



Cool. I'm interested as to where you take this.

In your analysis of the _how_ and the _why_ of the rise of the BNP, I'm broadly with you.


----------



## Tom A (Jan 24, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Does direct action e.g. Antifa/AFA/Red London have a role to play?


Depends on the situation, but I don't think that "fash bashing" the BNP ballerina would have been very productive IMO, to give on example.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jan 24, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> Depends on the situation, but I don't think that "fash bashing" the BNP ballerina would have been very productive IMO, to give on example.



Lol. I agree. I wasn't suggesting that a fired-up group of male (?) Comrades set about a girly dancer. 

Shame if she fell in front of a bus though.


----------



## Tom A (Jan 24, 2007)

Or if she "accidently" collided with half a dozen British Lion Quality free range organic eggs


----------



## JimPage (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> sunshine, I was engaged in genuine anti-fascist and other 'red' activities, whilst you were still in your first year at prep school - and risking my life for it too. I do NOT need teenage idiot swappies to start telling me how to combat the BNP when you are so utterly fucking hopeless at it. I CERTAINLY don't need some pimply stude to tell me how to go about something I understand better than you ever will.
> WHEN you have FINALLY grasped that where the BNP are at, right now, bears ZERO relation to the stock image of 'fascism' in your 'mind'....
> WHEN you have finally realised that where the BNP are at right now is resonating with uncomfortable lafrge swathes of the white working class you seem to have zero understanding or knoqwledge of...
> WHEN you have outgrown the time-honoured SWP tradition of alienating as many people as possible by talking at them and talking down to them...
> ...



a teenager i wish. What makes you think i am SWP, incidentally? To praise a single UAF activity seems to be enough.

When the BNP are described as fascists- it is a descriptive term of this politics and ideology- you have clearly lost focus on this. Yes, they are Eurnationalists of the likes of the VB in Flanders and FN in France- but they too arefascist organisations

You havent answered my point that new thinking is needed to stop the BNP- and re-discrovering old thinking again. And i dont need lessons in antifascism from you, son. Grow up, and research what AFA had to say about antifascism.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> OK. the single biggest change in the situation is that the BNP are clearly having an unprecedented - worryingly so - success in getting their message through to the (traditional) bedrock of the LP; the white working classes.
> This is NOT a localised phenomena either - dagenham and burnley are a very, very long way apart, viewed within the overall context of the UK; the only thing that unites them is that they are traditional bastions of the white working class that have seen high levels of immigration over the past decade or so; immigration from asia, from 'new' europe, via asylum seekers.
> The fact remains that this white working class is the class that got shafted by thatcher - and then left behind by New Labour. The ONLY group, of any size, that seems to be getting a message through to them is the only group that seems - to them - to be putting their concerns first; the BNP.
> Immigration has been used by govt and the bossclass alike (the two are closely entwined but not identical) to shaft workers; the home crowd by driving their wages downwards, and by dumping immigrants on their already hard pressed communities, either directly or by dint of simply letting untrammelled market forces do their work, and their worst.
> gotta go now, will develop this theme further tomorrow.



i dont need lessons from you that that the bnp are having unparallelled influence on the english working class at present. 

what you are saying is racist nonsense. you are saying that immigration is being used by the bosses to drive down wages- its simply a barefaced, shameless racist lie- you have not a scred of evidence that what you are saying is true

in scotland, there is widespread support for the ideas of open borders- with immigrants and aslum sekers being welcomes as assets to the community  and the bnp up here are simply not allowed to organise, or operate, anywhere, anytime. the few times they have apppeared over the last few years their presence has been removed within minuites. 

what you fail to realise is that you do not have to address the worries of the white working class on immigration. those worries are racist- and need to be adressed by putting better arguements. but if people, having been told the situation, persist in racist language and behaviour ( such as calling for immigration controls etc) it is more than sufficient simply to ensure their views are robustly challenged.


----------



## Giles (Jan 25, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> what you are saying is racist nonsense. you are saying that immigration is being used by the bosses to drive down wages- its simply a barefaced, shameless racist lie- you have not a scred of evidence that what you are saying is true



You don't think that having lots of Polish blokes working in the construction industry for low rates of pay, for example, is depressing wages in that sector, at all?

Google is your friend.

Giles..


----------



## untethered (Jan 25, 2007)

Giles said:
			
		

> You don't think that having lots of Polish blokes working in the construction industry for low rates of pay, for example, is depressing wages in that sector, at all?



I hate to say it, but this topic has already been done to death on several separate threads.


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jan 25, 2007)

Giles said:
			
		

> You don't think that having lots of Polish blokes working in the construction industry for low rates of pay, for example, is depressing wages in that sector, at all?
> 
> Google is your friend.
> 
> Giles..



Sorry to say bosses are using polish people etc to lower wages. Also political Islam is a danger in this country.Why have not UAF not protested outside any of the mosques?. What we need is a proper class based group.A group that is not going to turn a blind eye to political Islam.


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jan 25, 2007)

Mr T said:
			
		

> Called by UAF against this ballerina Simone Clarke:
> 
> No to Fascism and Racism at the Ballet
> Unite Against Fascism Demonstration
> ...




Why not protest outside the mosques aswell? is it any wounder the bnp are gaining ground with groups like uaf .Their chairman has even brought these Islamic fascists to London. Why don't UAF target all fascists not just white fascists.


----------



## Tom A (Jan 25, 2007)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:
			
		

> Why not protest outside the mosques aswell? is it any wounder the bnp are gaining ground with groups like uaf .Their chairman has even brought these Islamic fascists to London. Why don't UAF target all fascists not just white fascists.


Becase Islam is a religion of peace blah blah blah blah... Muslims are being threatened and harrassed cause of their religion blah blah blah, Blair wants to genocide the Muslims for the oil blah blah blah...

</WESPEC' party line>


----------



## chilango (Jan 25, 2007)

A few points...

1/ There is a huge vacuum in British politics - the main parties don`t offer much, so small parties have an oppurtunity to capitalize if they can find some resonance with communities hence the rise of not just the BNP but the Greens and independants too.

2/ The political climate in Britain has shifted massively rightwards over the last 5 years. The BNP therefore are closer to the mainstream. Especially after their shift towards a more "moderate" image.

3/ The remnants of the left have not dealt with this: the SWPs et al have abandoned wc politics in favour of an oppurtunist tailending of political islam. So, Respect cannot compete with the BNP for votes. Others such as the IWCA are closer to the right idae, but persist in a cultural rather than economic definition of class and so limit the areas where they can grow. Still others play into the BNPs hands by falling into the anti-immigration camp (albeit with good intentions).


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> they don't scare me, for the good and simple reason that I know no-one of sense will ever take them seriously in any way. They do, however, depress me when I ponder that such 5-watt swapbots are what passes for Left activism in the UK nowadays. THAT is the tragedy.



but they do have an influence  out of all proportion with their size thru bullshit events like this, their irritating paperselling and leadership of so mnay goups like STW


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> sunshine, I was engaged in genuine anti-fascist and other 'red' activities, whilst you were still in your first year at prep school - and risking my life for it too. I do NOT need teenage idiot swappies to start telling me how to combat the BNP when you are so utterly fucking hopeless at it. I CERTAINLY don't need some pimply stude to tell me how to go about something I understand better than you ever will.
> WHEN you have FINALLY grasped that where the BNP are at, right now, bears ZERO relation to the stock image of 'fascism' in your 'mind'....
> WHEN you have finally realised that where the BNP are at right now is resonating with uncomfortable lafrge swathes of the white working class you seem to have zero understanding or knoqwledge of...
> WHEN you have outgrown the time-honoured SWP tradition of alienating as many people as possible by talking at them and talking down to them...
> ...



and so say all of us!


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 25, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> i dont need lessons from you that that the bnp are having unparallelled influence on the english working class at present.
> 
> what you are saying is racist nonsense. you are saying that immigration is being used by the bosses to drive down wages- its simply a barefaced, shameless racist lie- you have not a scred of evidence that what you are saying is true
> 
> ...



no wonder the left is finished


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 25, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> A few points...
> 
> 1/ There is a huge vacuum in British politics - the main parties don`t offer much, so small parties have an oppurtunity to capitalize if they can find some resonance with communities hence the rise of not just the BNP but the Greens and independants too.
> 
> ...



good post but this is why the immigration issue, however unpalatable, is so crucial .. dennis r tried well on the other thread ( as did VP on grassroots politics) to move this debate on


----------



## chilango (Jan 25, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> good post but this is why the immigration issue, however unpalatable, is so crucial .. dennis r tried well on the other thread ( as did VP on grassroots politics) to move this debate on




yeah but, no but..

groups like the BNP are not growing simply because of the immigration issue...its their willingness to do small scale local politics. hence the slow but sure growth of the Greens, the indepenant "stop the hospital closure" etc candidates etc.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> i dont need lessons from you that that the bnp are having unparallelled influence on the english working class at present.


given how pitifully poor your swappie heroes are at connecting with the working classes, as opposed to MAB camp-followers, you sure as hell do! they and you you have ZERO influence on british workers, or any workers for that matter, which is hardly surprising given the total lack of w/c roots in your sect of student scweamers


> what you are saying is racist nonsense. you are saying that immigration is being used by the bosses to drive down wages- its simply a barefaced, shameless racist lie- you have not a scred of evidence that what you are saying is true


you WHAAAT!!!!  
Sunshine, I work in recruitment, not that sector but I know my industry. I have SEEN how construction bosses, and industrial bosses keep right down to min wage - by employing immigrant workers first second and last. They ADMIT IT, quite openly. 
here in the place we call 'reality' - EVERYONE knows that is PRECISELY what is happening to unskilled/semi-skilled bluecollar work. the agencies are making a fortune, wages are kept right down, british workers ANd foreign workers are being screwed. you know - those workers you're meant to be on the same side as?
ever heard of 'workers of the world unite'? 




> in scotland, there is widespread support for the ideas of open borders- with immigrants and aslum sekers being welcomes as assets to the community


bullshit. utter, total tripe. gonna put up stats or links to back that up then?



> and the bnp up here are simply not allowed to organise, or operate, anywhere, anytime. the few times they have apppeared over the last few years their presence has been removed within minuites.


oh ffs! given the anglo-centric nature of the BNP, they have NEVER done much in scotland, and the xenophobic end of the SNP covers that ground quite well enough. the BNP gave up on scotland decades ago. FACT.  



> what you fail to realise is that you do not have to address the worries of the white working class on immigration.


sunshine, you don't actually KNOW anything abnout the white working class - you wouldn't recognise them if one of em offered you a fag! as a matter of curiosity, have you ever _met_ a british worker? 
OF COURSE you have to address those worries, tghey impact directly on their pockets, families, communities and living stabdards you moron. If THEY worry - YOU should worry. try _listening_ to the class instead of lecturing it, just for once, and they mivght do something other than laugh at you. have you actually ever been on strike jim?



> those worries are racist


no they are not, you complete and utter fuckwit, they are well-founded worrries about how this fucks up their world! 


> - and need to be adressed by putting better arguements. but if people, having been told the situation, persist in racist language and behaviour ( such as calling for immigration controls etc) it is more than sufficient simply to ensure their views are robustly challenged.


no it isn't because it totally fails to see matters from the workers' material point of view! It is NOT sufficient simply because you are TOTALLY failing to put across a point of view that deals with the worries, and engages the hearts, of the british working classes. speaking as one of em, like, re; my background. all you are doing is getting their backs up and driving them into the arms of the BNP - and please don't tell me your not - that is PRECISELY what happened with each and every one of their council wins.
Jim, come back when you can do more than simply recycle trot idiocies. you really are a walking explanation as to why the m/c anti-racist crusade, and the trot left has so totally, utterly failed. 
dismal.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> yeah but, no but..
> 
> groups like the BNP are not growing simply because of the immigration issue...its their willingness to do small scale local politics. hence the slow but sure growth of the Greens, the indepenant "stop the hospital closure" etc candidates etc.


aye - you know where they copied it off? it's a direct lift from the old Liberal party community politics of the 60s and 70s that eventually ended up tielded such stunning returns, first in councils in the 80s, then in parliament in the last 3 elections.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> a teenager i wish. What makes you think i am SWP, incidentally? To praise a single UAF activity seems to be enough.


errmm...because you have almost 100% recycled, uncritically, the standard, long-running, and entirely erroneous swappie line on this, hmm? and because UAF are 100% a swappie frontjob, always have been, always will be, hmm? which is why people ignore them, hmm? 


> When the BNP are described as fascists- it is a descriptive term of this politics and ideology- you have clearly lost focus on this.


no I haven't because anyone who knows where they are now knows they are NOT fascists but far-right racist reactionaries 


> Yes, they are Eurnationalists of the likes of the VB in Flanders and FN in France- but they too are fascist organisations


no they are not, and not a single serious lefty in france or belgium thinks they are.
do you actually KNOW what fascism is?  


> You havent answered my point that new thinking is needed to stop the BNP-


it sure as hell is - so why are you repeating every one of the mistakes of the past 30 years?


> and re-discrovering old thinking again


. 
yay, that old thinking! that beat the old NF! and forced the BNP to mutate into...unm, something rather different, precisely to outflank the old thinking, as indeed they have done, very successfully.
smart one, laddie. 



> And i dont need lessons in antifascism from you, son.


actually, you do, lessons from me and anyone and everyone with any sort of genuine anti-BNP, anti-fash pedigree. which is one thing you have NOT got.
sonny; let this middle aged man (oh god! ) spell this out; there are very few things in life I am certain of, but one of them is that I was fighting the like sof the NF and BNP - all the way back to PNL, 1984 - when you were still being sent to bed early by mummy. ALL of your posts on this thread have the classic hallmark of the self-righteous teenage uni trot, who hasn't got a clue what working class struggle means in practice.



> Grow up,


you couldn't make this up  


> and research what AFA had to say about antifascism


I don't need to, actually, i used to help _write_ quite a lot of it, in the old days when the original AFA had any relevance. 
which, it has to be said, is more than one can say for UAF at present.
and - if you knew ANYTHING about AFA - which clearly you do NOT - you'd know that most of the original AFA crowd, like the Red action crowd - moved on to form the backbone of the IWCA...whose views I have reproduced more or less 100% faithfully here, and who would agree with me 100%.
whoopsy!!!  
sunshine, buffoons like you are the biggest asset the BNP have got.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2007)

lightsoutlondon said:
			
		

> Cool. I'm interested as to where you take this.
> 
> In your analysis of the _how_ and the _why_ of the rise of the BNP, I'm broadly with you.


right; the next step. 
We need to copy their community methods, in both the workplace and the community, just do it better than them.
This shouldn't be that hard actually, because by and large BNP councillors have turned out to be truly hopeless.
and - above all - we need to do this on the basis of CLASS - that great unifier across all other boundaries - and therefore by fingering the REAL baddies - capitalism and the ruling classes.
we have to in fact take a leaf out of the BNP, and their ultimate spiritual godfathers, the NSDAP (they may not, right now, BE fascists, but they sure as hell grew out of that lineage).
and that is by forgetting the rhetoric, and going right back to the grassroots, with community campaigns based on the common interests of UK working classes and immigrant workers.
the TUc have belatedly started to recognise the possibilities offered to their membership ranks by the huge influx of immigrant workers - but if we waited for the TU hierarchy to give us a clear and bold lead we'd be marooned forever.
so;we need community campaigns, wherever there are large numbers of asylum seekers, or a detention centre for sdame, to relocate them to one of the leafiest, and most affluent areas of the country. for their own good, but also to relieve the pressure on w/c class communities.
we need public housing campaigns, to get more and better housing for immigrants and british workers alike, sio as to get both groups fighting alongside each other.
 we need workplace campaigns for ALL, to put bosses on the back foot and force wages UP.
and this needs to be done right at the deepest grassroots. 
BY the workers.
WITH workers taking the lead. 
assisted by 'cadres' who are NOT there to talk down to workers but to _listen_ to them


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but they do have an influence  out of all proportion with their size thru bullshit events like this, their irritating paperselling and leadership of so mnay goups like STW


true, and that is one utter, cosmic pain in the arse. I mean the bloke selling the SW and WESPECK'S paper on sydenham station has the poshest voice I ever, ever heard in south london. how is a knackered, low-paid commuting worker gonna respond when such a guy starts  lecturing him about 'brotherhood'?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> we have to in fact take a leaf out of the BNP, and their ultimate spiritual godfathers, the NSDAP...



 Seriously?


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Seriously?


yup. learn from their methods of embedding themselves right at the heart of the bluecollar community, use their community politics _against_ them.
remind me - HOW MANY  members did the nazis have BEFORE hitler became chancellor? a damn sight more than the numbers enjoyed by any left wing party in the UK today.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> true, and that is one utter, cosmic pain in the arse. I mean the bloke selling the SW and WESPECK'S paper on sydenham station has the poshest voice I ever, ever heard in south london. how is a knackered, low-paid commuting worker gonna respond when such a guy starts  lecturing him about 'brotherhood'?



Ironic then that one of the 'posh' voices in the SWP, Paul Foot, was alway's welcomed by working class communities, like the miners for example, and he alway's went out of his way to listen to those very same working class communities.

Are you hiding your own 'posh' accent, by appearing prolier than thou by any chance?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> yup. learn from their methods of embedding themselves right at the heart of the bluecollar community, use their community politics _against_ them.
> remind me - HOW MANY  members did the nazis have BEFORE hitler became chancellor? a damn sight more than the numbers enjoyed by any left wing party in the UK today.



The BNP have just over six thousand at the minute.  

Where is this bluecollar community you speak of?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> Sunshine, I work in recruitment, not that sector but *I know my industry*.



 says a lot about you 'sunshine'.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but they do have an influence  out of all proportion with their size thru bullshit events like this, their irritating paperselling and leadership of so mnay goups like STW



What's up Drutt, Hackney Independent not doing well these days?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> aye - you know where they copied it off? it's a direct lift from the old Liberal party community politics of the 60s and 70s that eventually ended up tielded such stunning returns, first in councils in the 80s, then in parliament in the last 3 elections.



BNP councillors are fiddling communities, whilst also harassing some members of it, all over the place and been seen to be doing so. It's what fascists do.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 26, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Ironic then that one of the 'posh' voices in the SWP, Paul Foot, was alway's welcomed by working class communities, like the miners for example, and he alway's went out of his way to listen to those very same working class communities.


1) please take on board this very *basic*, very *simple* point; one person does NOT a party make, as all _genuine_ socialists understand as a matter of course
I still know a fair few good people in that party, ditto the LP; it's just both _organisations_ which are rank, the LP as class traitors, the SWP as both cynical and delusional, and both accordingly rejected more by British workers with every day that passes.
I also knew Paul for many years- a fuck sight better than you did, i'm pretty confident - and i was at his funeral, along with the ex-poster here who used to lay out his _Private Eye_ copy, AND i cut my political teeth arranging miners meetings with him speaking, so I'm just a _little_ better informed than you on this, as it happens! And I'd agree, he's a man of unswerving integrity and principles, just not terribly good at speaking to the class in a way that seems relevant to our lives.
yes, he did go out of his way to listen - but ALL good journoes do, it's in the blood. he was in a tiny SWP minority as regards that. And anyone with paul's principles and consistency will ALWAYS be welcomed by w/c communities: nowt to do with the SWP's failed policies, or the fact the ideas he supoported have been consistently ignored by those same communities which welcomed him.
btw - he wasn't _that_ 'posh'; he comes from a famous non-con (quaker) radical campaigning family in the west country. his more famous uncle was also a journo by trade - as I'm sure you'd forgotten! 


> Are you hiding your own 'posh' accent, by appearing prolier than thou by any chance?


are you talking irrelevant shite here, by any chance? yup.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 26, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> says a lot about you 'sunshine'.


what, that I have to work in the private sector to earn a living, like, ermm, most people in a 100% capitalist country? And that I try to do my job well? yeah, _sure_ it does.  
unlike Jim page, you are not a fool, so please don't act like one. In other words - get real.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 26, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> The BNP have just over six thousand at the minute.


and growing by the day, ditto their voter base.



> Where is this bluecollar community you speak of


if you can't work that out for yourself, no point me telling you


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 26, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> BNP councillors are fiddling communities, whilst also harassing some members of it, all over the place and been seen to be doing so. It's what fascists do.


whatever they are doing, it's working well enough to deserve a serious and objective analysis, and working far better than any far-Left tactics other than those of the IWCA. are you SERIOUSLY suggesting the whole of the Left _doesn't_ need to go right back to the grassroots, and to first principles? 
That is _precisely_ what it needs to do, at this time when the nature of employment and industry has radically changed over the past 30 years.
the alternative is for the various left groups to continue as they have, and condemn themselves, in doing so, to another half-century of impotence, irrelevance and defeat


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 26, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> yeah but, no but..
> 
> groups like the BNP are not growing simply because of the immigration issue...its their willingness to do small scale local politics. hence the slow but sure growth of the Greens, the indepenant "stop the hospital closure" etc candidates etc.



yep totally agree


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 26, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What's up Drutt, Hackney Independent not doing well these days?



mc piss off grow up get a life ... you honestly have nowt better to do than come on here and try to take the piss? .. use it to debate mate .. 

p.s HI doing very well ta v.m.


----------



## brasicritique (Jan 26, 2007)

The bnp are doing well not because everyone who votes for them is a romper stomper but because of drift. The Nazis did not win power in Germany or got away with what they did because everyone voted for them. 

What happened amongst other things is that people said I do not really give a shit and this is what is happening now. Where are the future white
/under/working class people that the left are going to need? The next generation?  There seems to be a lot of old pot bellied gits on these boards youth does not appear to be on side.

And i would also say that there is a lack of people from the above  mentioned background coming through college or university or even the unions to make much of a difference. This mordern lack of social mobility will kick in over the next 10 years as thing get worse.

I am talking about people that can go between communities and i fear such people are a dying breed. The bnp also play class politics a lot better than some of you lot think. 

Some of you make good point about Euro -nationalism tip the bnp are on  but I also think they treat people like consumers  ' vote bnp here’s what you would get'  while the left are still thinking about mass movements or street demos all of which are more dated than violent pandas pants. If as I am sure we will all agree poverty is at the root of the problem then why not start some national anti poverty campaigns? Wishfull thinking i fear as the MC are doing to well out globalisation and now use WWC as a means of boosting their fragile little ego's.

As much as I respect some of the more intelligent posters on these boards I think that they have got the sentiment but lack the ideas, people and methods of dialogue required. But hey here’s to trying


----------



## audiotech (Jan 26, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> 1) please take on board this very *basic*, very *simple* point; one person does NOT a party make, as all _genuine_ socialists understand as a matter of course
> I still know a fair few good people in that party, ditto the LP; it's just both _organisations_ which are rank, the LP as class traitors, the SWP as both cynical and delusional, and both accordingly rejected more by British workers with every day that passes.
> I also knew Paul for many years- a fuck sight better than you did, i'm pretty confident - and i was at his funeral, along with the ex-poster here who used to lay out his _Private Eye_ copy, AND i cut my political teeth arranging miners meetings with him speaking, so I'm just a _little_ better informed than you on this, as it happens! And I'd agree, he's a man of unswerving integrity and principles, just not terribly good at speaking to the class in a way that seems relevant to our lives.
> yes, he did go out of his way to listen - but ALL good journoes do, it's in the blood. he was in a tiny SWP minority as regards that. And anyone with paul's principles and consistency will ALWAYS be welcomed by w/c communities: nowt to do with the SWP's failed policies, or the fact the ideas he supoported have been consistently ignored by those same communities which welcomed him.
> ...



Whatever,  but your bit about one person not making a party? Does it include the bloke selling SW on sydenham station?

Just a point, I remember meeting Foot and organising meetings. In mining communities as it happens.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 26, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> and growing by the day, ditto their voter base.
> 
> 
> if you can't work that out for yourself, no point me telling you



The BNP voter base is very soft and subject to pressure can collapse as quickly as it grew.



> bluecollar community



This is an americanism which I assumed you to mean those that work in manufacturing, car industry? Well, is that who you mean?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 26, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> whatever they are doing, it's working well enough to deserve a serious and objective analysis, and working far better than any far-Left tactics other than those of the IWCA. are you SERIOUSLY suggesting the whole of the Left _doesn't_ need to go right back to the grassroots, and to first principles?



Going back to grassroots and first principles is not what I've argued against though is it?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> mc piss off grow up get a life ... you honestly have nowt better to do than come on here and try to take the piss? .. use it to debate mate ..
> 
> p.s HI doing very well ta v.m.



Glad to hear it, but I'll take no lectures on piss taking from an aknowledged expert on the subject.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 26, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> what, that I have to work in the private sector to earn a living, like, ermm, most people in a 100% capitalist country? And that I try to do my job well? yeah, _sure_ it does.
> unlike Jim page, you are not a fool, so please don't act like one. In other words - get real.



The comment 





> I know my industry


 threw me, I thought you meant you owned the company.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 27, 2007)

Giles said:
			
		

> You don't think that having lots of Polish blokes working in the construction industry for low rates of pay, for example, is depressing wages in that sector, at all?
> 
> Giles..



Giles

its an urban myth that Polish workers are depressing wages. It may happen on an odd occasion, but the presence of Polish workers is generally neutral on wages rates. The position of socialists however is that they have an equal a right, as working class people, to live and work here as so called indigenous peoples


----------



## exosculate (Jan 27, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Giles
> 
> its an urban myth that Polish workers are depressing wages. It may happen on an odd occasion, but the presence of Polish workers is generally neutral on wages rates. The position of socialists however is that they have an equal a right, as working class people, to live and work here as so called indigenous peoples




Well that is a patent lie.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 27, 2007)

QUOTE=Red Jezza]errmm...because you have almost 100% recycled, uncritically, the standard, long-running, and entirely erroneous swappie line on this, hmm? and because UAF are 100% a swappie frontjob, always have been, always will be, hmm? which is why people ignore them, hmm? 

read what i said. i said tactically, this campaign by the UAF had positive aspects. It is not endorsing other UAF strategies- but if they can get it right here- they can get it right on other things. what your probelm is seems to be an irrational hatred of the SWP- and a failure to realise the realpolitik that nothing can be done - in the long run, without engagement with the SWP. 

I don't need to, actually, i used to help _write_ quite a lot of it, in the old days when the original AFA had any relevance. 
which, it has to be said, is more than one can say for UAF at present.
and - if you knew ANYTHING about AFA - which clearly you do NOT - you'd know that most of the original AFA crowd, like the Red action crowd - moved on to form the backbone of the IWCA...whose views I have reproduced more or less 100% faithfully here, and who would agree with me 100%.
whoopsy!!!  
sunshine, buffoons like you are the biggest asset the BNP have got.[/QUOTE]

there is one big problem in what you say- apart from in a small number of areas- hardly anyone listened to the wisdom of what was saId when the IWCA was formed- perhaps 9 years ago now?  what they said made absolute sense- but ten years after AFA published "filling the vacuum"- the idea of building an independant working class organisation to challege the BNP- when the time was right- at the ballot box. But for whatever reason, people didn`t listen- people didn`t form IWCA branches- or take them on at the polls 

so we get a situation where faced with a BNP whose are growing their branch network at the rate of 4 new groups a month for the last year whose membership and influence is growing,  and who are likely to come out of the May elections with a hundred councillors in total. 

what option does the left have but to go after them by any means necessary like this action- , and to support Respect politically in England, as the only organisation down there who seem up for the challenge? if time was on our side- the IWCA approach alone would work- but that is the last thing the left has


----------



## exosculate (Jan 27, 2007)

Thats it ignore and move on Jim, you are a twit.


----------



## Giles (Jan 28, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Giles
> 
> its an urban myth that Polish workers are depressing wages. It may happen on an odd occasion, but the presence of Polish workers is generally neutral on wages rates. The position of socialists however is that they have an equal a right, as working class people, to live and work here as so called indigenous peoples



Why do I get the impression that stating this position is an article of faith for you, and that you would carry on stating it whatever facts were put in front of you?

Giles..


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## chilango (Jan 29, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> there is one big problem in what you say- apart from in a small number of areas- hardly anyone listened to the wisdom of what was saId when the IWCA was formed- perhaps 9 years ago now?  what they said made absolute sense- but ten years after AFA published "filling the vacuum"- the idea of building an independant working class organisation to challege the BNP- when the time was right- at the ballot box. But for whatever reason, people didn`t listen- people didn`t form IWCA branches- or take them on at the polls
> 
> so we get a situation where faced with a BNP whose are growing their branch network at the rate of 4 new groups a month for the last year whose membership and influence is growing,  and who are likely to come out of the May elections with a hundred councillors in total.
> 
> what option does the left have but to go after them by any means necessary like this action- , and to support Respect politically in England, as the only organisation down there who seem up for the challenge? if time was on our side- the IWCA approach alone would work- but that is the last thing the left has




The problem with IWCA approach was/is that it was 20 years too late in much opf the country.

I many many areas there is no working class community. Working class? sure, but community, gone. Transient populations of people with no roots in an area, not knowing their neighbours and no vested interest in a locale they are desperately trying to get out of.


Least that was the problem where i was at the time.


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## Streathamite (Jan 30, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Giles
> 
> its an urban myth that Polish workers are depressing wages. It may happen on an odd occasion, but the presence of Polish workers is generally neutral on wages rates.


absolutely untrue, and rates of pay are, after all, my specialist area of expertise. The agency scam is what pegs unskilled labour to the min wage - and most of the E european influx are unskilled or semi-skilled




> The position of socialists however is that they have an equal a right, as working class people, to live and work here as so called indigenous peoples


leaving aside whether any member of that monument to cynicsm and reaction, WESPECK, has ANY right to tell anyone what socialists should and should believe, you are missing a large and important point; this 'right' should not come at the expense of indigenous working class men and women; that is a first-rate recipe for dividing the class, and with nothing else achieved


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## Streathamite (Jan 30, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Going back to grassroots and first principles is not what I've argued against though is it?


no but you seem in danger of underestimating the BNP, and being a tad complacent


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## audiotech (Jan 30, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> no but you seem in danger of underestimating the BNP, and being a tad complacent



I neither underestimate, nor overestimate.


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## Streathamite (Jan 30, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> there is one big problem in what you say- apart from in a small number of areas- hardly anyone listened to the wisdom of what was saId when the IWCA was formed- perhaps 9 years ago now?


1) see others comments in the decline of vitality of w/c communities. this HAS changed.
2) the IWCa is small - but continually growing, and this is down to the fact that the one area RESPECT has got most wrong - trying for quick-fix alliances rather than slow, patient building in the community - is the one the IWCa has got most right.


> what they said made absolute sense- but ten years after AFA published "filling the vacuum"- the idea of building an independant working class organisation to challege the BNP- when the time was right- at the ballot box. But for whatever reason, people didn`t listen- people didn`t form IWCA branches- or take them on at the polls


except they have and do - the IWCA ARE in it for the long game, which is the ONLy viable apprtoach for any pro-left, pro-worker grouping, due to the fact the UK Left has hit such a huge brick wall



> so we get a situation where faced with a BNP whose are growing their branch network at the rate of 4 new groups a month for the last year whose membership and influence is growing,  and who are likely to come out of the May elections with a hundred councillors in total.


and the ONE left organisation most guaranteed to drive white w/c people into the BNP's arms are RESPECT. people don't like being lectured or talked down to.
and I don't buy those figures either


> what option does the left have but to go after them by any means necessary like this action- ,


except there's a better way; slow, Patient grassroots building, precisely the sort of grinding community politics that the BNP have copied off the libdems so successfully


> and to support Respect politically in England, as the only organisation down there who seem up for the challenge?


no they are not. they want to be seen as up for it, as part of their cynical 'repositioning' to try and hoover up BME and white w/c votes.
and it won't work, because behind it all is the same old cynicall, control-freak, hypocritical SWP. eventually people will realise they are being used, at which point it's ta-ta WESPECK 



> if time was on our side- the IWCA approach alone would work- but that is the last thing the left has


The Left will ONLY get the result it wants by playing a long game


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## JimPage (Jan 31, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> _and I don't buy those figures either_
> 
> will respond to your substantive post later if i have time- but figure of 4 new groups per month are correct - Last month Rochford, Bracknell, Vale of Glamorgan and Haringey, month before Melton Mowbray, Boston,West Kent and South Lakeland. Group formed in Newbury this month
> 
> Even if we agree to diagree on how to fight the BNP- please belive me when i say they are organising themselves at an alarming rate.


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## Streathamite (Jan 31, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Even if we agree to diagree on how to fight the BNP- please belive me when i say they are organising themselves at an alarming rate.


jim, are you 12, perchance? you seem to live in a hermetically sealed bubble - so let me simplify this for you; the one thing you do NOT need to do with your life is update me on how and whether the BNP are expanding, and it is almost certain i am actually better placed than you to comment. i don't dispute the group formation stats that much, as thye broadly tally with the info that i had recently. I merely disputed the likelihood of 100 councillors; people who voted for them last time are already seeing how useless they are.
In fact, if there's one thing that WILL make indigenous w/c lot vote for them, it's....being talked down to by WESPECK


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## JimPage (Feb 1, 2007)

Jezza

i am not getting involved in an exchanage of abuse with you.

the 100 councillors in total would be based on the fact that the East Midlands- areas like Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire- are at the polls at council level for the first time since 2003- and the fact that in by elections since May 2006 the BNP are about 3% up on what they were polling previously. that 3% would not only mean they would be getting extra councillors in the wards they won in 2006- but getting in in wards they missed out on by a whisker in 2006  

as to people seeing through them- wish it were true but cant see it. In areas where they are really entrenched- say sandwell, stoke and burnley- you have wards where people have been consistently voting BNP in the wards since 2002/3 in large numbers 

why respect? why can they stop the BNP? well simply they have a good track record over the last few years at actually getting elected- and importantly polling very well in some white working class wards. they are standing for election on a socialist platform. And they have said quire explicitly they are going to take the electoral fight to BNP areas

If not Respect, what? And When? Until recently i would have been a very strong advocate of the "long game" agaisnt the BNP you advocate. Where i was getting at with regards to the BNP organisational expansion is they run the risk of the growing at such a rate that the left cannot provide a political opposition to them at a fast enough rate- only Respect- for all their faults- seem willing to do it


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Jezza
> 
> i am not getting involved in an exchanage of abuse with you.


then please don't presume to try and 'educate' or lecture me on a subject I am certain I have substantially more knowledge than you. you'll get slapped down every time.




> the 100 councillors in total would be based on the fact that the East Midlands- areas like Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire- are at the polls at council level for the first time since 2003- and the fact that in by elections since May 2006 the BNP are about 3% up on what they were polling previously. that 3% would not only mean they would be getting extra councillors in the wards they won in 2006- but getting in in wards they missed out on by a whisker in 2006


as any statistician would tell you - beware surface extrapolations, drawn solely from numerical projections


> as to people seeing through them- wish it were true but cant see it. In areas where they are really entrenched- say sandwell, stoke and burnley- you have wards where people have been consistently voting BNP in the wards since 2002/3 in large numbers


in the long run they will - as the ineptitude of their councillors and the brutishness of their REAL historic agenda comes out, which is why the effort needs to be on focussing a powerful and unflattering spotlight on them and that agenda - by building at the grassroots, which RESPECT - being a stitch up between MAB apparatchiks and the SWP CC - is in exactly the wrong place to do. 


> why respect? why can they stop the BNP? well simply they have a good track record over the last few years at actually getting elected


- 
you WHAAAT??? only councillors - a handful - in wards with a large muslim base - and ONE MP in a constituency where the muslims are the single largest grouping. betcha georgie boy loses next time too.



> and importantly polling very well in some white working class wards.


YOU WHAAAT!!!BOLLOCKS do they! WHERE???? links please. They are getting STUFF ALL support in traditional white w/c class areas, primarily because yer average bloke who's come in from a 10-hour-shift does NOT like to be lectured on the 'class struggle' by some tweed-wearing uni lecturer who's never done a days backbreaking graft in his life!
look - RESPECT have 


> they are standing for election on a socialist platform.


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no they are NOT. 
the very MOST they can claim is to be standing on a PC social-democratic platform a la Labour circa '83. and every bit as vague, woolly and incoherent.
and - btw - it's impoosible to stand for elections on a 'socialist' programme. contradiction in terms innit.


> And they have said quire explicitly they are going to take the electoral fight to BNP areas


well bully for them. and? and when will this happen?


> If not Respect, what?


given that the BNP's appeal is almost certainly focussed on the disempowered, angry white w/c, an organisation that said white w/c feels is identifiably 'like them' would be a good place to start. RESPECT do NOT appeal to that base, in fact everytime RESPECT people address that base they alienate more and more people.


> If not Respect, what? And When?


by building alliances right at the grassroots, at the level at which people live their lives, which is the opposite of what RESPECT is about. it started as a 'deal' between muslim bigwigs, and the SWP CC, plus one sleazeball MP. and from that all of it's present and future course is dictated


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Going back to grassroots and first principles is not what I've argued against though is it?


if you're a swappie, such a notion is 100% the opposite of what your shabby crew is about


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> This is an americanism which I assumed you to mean those that work in manufacturing, car industry? Well, is that who you mean?


given that I aqm dealing with someone with minimal knowledge of w/c history or culture...<sigh> let me explain.
'bluecollar' is a 100% british term, used to donate those who work with their hands. however, given the decimation of the UK manufacturing base, it's reasonable to expand it to include all workers, IMo


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> given that I aqm dealing with someone with minimal knowledge of w/c history or culture...<sigh> let me explain.
> 'bluecollar' is a 100% british term, used to donate those who work with their hands. however, given the decimation of the UK manufacturing base, it's reasonable to expand it to include all workers, IMo



I know my own history and culture and that of my class thanks. I repeat, 'bluecollar' is an American term. Workers in this part of the world who use their hands have been called, amongst other things, artisans, craftsmen, skilled and manual workers, but never 'bluecollar'. Btw, I was an engineer myself as well as being described as a "troublemaker".


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## JimPage (Feb 1, 2007)

_



			
				Red Jezza said:
			
		


			then please don't presume to try and 'educate' or lecture me on a subject I am certain I have substantially more knowledge than you. you'll get slapped down every time.
		
Click to expand...

_



			
				Red Jezza said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Slap down my arse. Your arguements are failing miseably......


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> if you're a swappie, such a notion is 100% the opposite of what your shabby crew is about



I'm not that interested in your 'notions' to be honest.


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I'm not that interested in your 'notions' to be honest.


who cares when everyone laughs at your amateurish, idiotic prepubescent ones?  
i'll carry on speaking for and to genuine workers thanks!
one day, you'll meet one...


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> JimPage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> who cares when everyone laughs at your amateurish, idiotic prepubescent ones?
> i'll carry on speaking for and to genuine workers thanks!
> one day, you'll meet one...



My family have roots and a history in the mining community of South Yorkshire, so be a good boy and grow up eh.


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I know my own history and culture and that of my class thanks.


fine  but who WANTS to know about the history of home counties students?  


> I repeat, 'bluecollar' is an American term. Workers in this part of the world who use their hands have been called, amongst other things, artisans, craftsmen, skilled and manual workers, but never 'bluecollar'.


WRONG! and - unsurprisingly - your ignorance of history is exceeded only by your gullibility re;swappies. 
the term 'bluecollar' was first reported as coined by an early victorian British  novelist (forget who, will dig it out). it was in vogue for quite a time over here, before and after, but simply became far more popular in the US. there it is inextricably tied to the cult of the dignity of labour - here no such thing exist
fall asleep in that lecture?


> Btw, I was an engineer myself as well as being described as a "troublemaker".


well, bully for you. so what?
and an engineer - as opposed to a mechanic - is very much a m/c profession, the one me dad crawled up all the way from t'bottom to reach eventually


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> My family have roots and a history in the mining community of South Yorkshire, so be a good boy and grow up eh.


conveniently lost in time in your case, i'd imagine, however tenaciously you cling to them, tarquin. and going by your daft posts on this thread it hasn't helped your innate understanding of the class, which appears to be 100% gone
and I bet - getting this on topic - that neither you nor your remedial charge jimpage can make your idiotic arguments for WESPECK work any better


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## Blagsta (Feb 1, 2007)

Jezza, you're hardly salt of the earth working class yerself are you?

Why do some people feel the need to pretend to be something they're not?


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Jezza, you're hardly salt of the earth working class yerself are you?
> 
> :


wrong, as it happens. from worker stock, grew up in deprivation, a sensation heightened by being surrounded by others affluence


> Why do some people feel the need to pretend to be something they're not? :confused


in general, agreed. it's daft. We're all individuals. however, it's 100% relevant here. the issue is how the standard bearers of the far-right - surely the enemy of workers everywhere - are having an unprecedented degree of success in attracting the votes of white w/c people in a country where the w/c have been hammered, by playing them off against an immigrant W/c.
and here two gullible, naive idiots from a hierarchical frontjob - WESPECK - for the most notoriously bourgeois leftists sect - and a frontjob founded on anti-worker roots of hierarchy and Faith - are proposing the same mistakes, rooted in the same anti-class values, that have driven w/c class communities into the arms of the BNP and co.
this issue is totally, utterly about class. so to hear swapbots talk such dangerous guff, does tend to make you bring out the oldtime TU banner


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## Blagsta (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> wrong, as it happens. from worker stock, grew up in deprivation, a sensation heightened by being surrounded by others affluence



Really?  I was always under the impression you'd been to private school.


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## Streathamite (Feb 1, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Really?  I was always under the impression you'd been to private school.


I'm SURE I told you I got the poor scruff brat foundation scholarship, the one only those whose family had stuff all could get? if not, my bad, or one of us was pissed at the time


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## Blagsta (Feb 1, 2007)

OK, fairynuff.


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> conveniently lost in time in your case, i'd imagine, however tenaciously you cling to them, tarquin. and going by your daft posts on this thread it hasn't helped your innate understanding of the class, which appears to be 100% gone
> and I bet - getting this on topic - that neither you nor your remedial charge jimpage can make your idiotic arguments for WESPECK work any better





 @ public schoolboy.


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> and an engineer - as opposed to a mechanic - is very much a m/c profession,



Being an apprentice electrical engineer on £3 pounds a week, under floorboards, falling through ceilings, nearly being blown off the top of tower blocks, under construction, and coming home covered in shit in no way can be described as a 'middle-class profession' you donut.


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> wrong, as it happens. from worker stock, grew up in deprivation, a sensation heightened by being surrounded by others affluence



I take it that was the family you were being 'surrounded' by who were affluent.


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## chilango (Feb 1, 2007)




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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

^ Albatross!


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## fractionMan (Feb 1, 2007)

I wish we'd grown up in a drain.  At least you had running water.


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## audiotech (Feb 1, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> OK, fairynuff.



You must have some special powers to make sense of that post.


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## Blagsta (Feb 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You must have some special powers to make sense of that post.



I know him IRL so can translate.


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## Streathamite (Feb 2, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I take it that was the family you were being 'surrounded' by who were affluent.


no, as is pitifully clear, it was evry other fucker in hertfordshire, which is why the sense of deprivation is far more acute in such areas for the marginalised, excluded - as you'd know if you had any understanding of such concepts. however you're a swapbot. so you don't.


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## Streathamite (Feb 2, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Being an apprentice electrical engineer on £3 pounds a week, under floorboards, falling through ceilings, nearly being blown off the top of tower blocks, under construction, and coming home covered in shit in no way can be described as a 'middle-class profession' you donut.


then that is NOT an engineer, and none of the institutions chartered thereof would escribe it as such, excepting possibly IEE.
you really are desperate to prove your hornyhanded credentials, aren't you? to cover up the fact that every one of your and page's idiot arguments have been comprehensively blown away?


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## Streathamite (Feb 2, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> @ public schoolboy.


were you born thick as shit, or did it come with the first paper sale?  
elt-me-explain-slowly; I-got-a-scholarship-set-up-to-aid-the-kids-of-very-poor-families.
now, do we think we could get our head round that?  
or are we going to lay out another masterplan for driving every indigenous working class family into the hands of the BNP by lecturing them? given that that is a swapbot hallmark as much as playing 'class bingo'


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## Streathamite (Feb 2, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> This protest, and campaign is probably doing more harm to the BNP than putting out 100,000 leaflets or whatever. It is directly targeted at fascists personally- and i reckon that there are several hundred fascists who work for local councils, railways the NHS etc who will be wondering what happens the next time their membership lists are leaked


you really are adrift from reality, aren't you? 
btw - I'm still awaiting proof of RESPECT polling highly in white w/c areas


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## Streathamite (Feb 2, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You must have some special powers to make sense of that post.


just the ability to listen to others before talking down to them, unlike the members of a certain trotskyist sect


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## JimPage (Feb 2, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> _- given that the BNP's appeal is almost certainly focussed on the disempowered, angry white w/c, an organisation that said white w/c feels is identifiably 'like them' would be a good place to start. _
> 
> give me one reasons why muslim repect councillors are not able to represent
> white working class people- what do you suggest- standing white working class candidates in white working class wards? that is playing the BNP`s game- and giving credence to their nonsensical ideas on race.
> ...


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## audiotech (Feb 2, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> no, as is pitifully clear, it was evry other fucker in hertfordshire, which is why the sense of deprivation is far more acute in such areas for the marginalised, excluded - as you'd know if you had any understanding of such concepts. however you're a swapbot. so you don't.



My heart bleeds.  The mutterings of victimhood is vomit inducing.


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## audiotech (Feb 2, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> then that is NOT an engineer, and none of the institutions chartered thereof would escribe it as such, excepting possibly IEE.
> you really are desperate to prove your hornyhanded credentials, aren't you? to cover up the fact that every one of your and page's idiot arguments have been comprehensively blown away?



You talked about an electrical engineering career being a 'middle-class profession'. I answered that it wasn't in my case.


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## audiotech (Feb 2, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> were you born thick as shit, or did it come with the first paper sale?
> elt-me-explain-slowly; I-got-a-scholarship-set-up-to-aid-the-kids-of-very-poor-families.
> now, do we think we could get our head round that?
> or are we going to lay out another masterplan for driving every indigenous working class family into the hands of the BNP by lecturing them? given that that is a swapbot hallmark as much as playing 'class bingo'



I-got-a-scholarship-set-up-to-aid-the-kids-of-very-poor-families (without the hypens) would have been enough thanks.

Ironic that you use the term "were you born thick as shit" remark, as I often heard that in the borstal I was being educated in at the time.


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## audiotech (Feb 2, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> just the ability to listen to others before talking down to them, unlike the members of a certain trotskyist sect



We demand their names!?


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## durruti02 (Feb 4, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I'm not that interested in your 'notions' to be honest.



not sure why you come on here MC5 .. regardless of RJ background or family .. s/he is raising some interesting points .. but yet again you ignore them  and yet again just pick up on the most unimportant things like the use of the word blue collar 

these are political debating boards .. you got something usefull to say,say it or otherwise have you really nothing better to do?


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## mk12 (Feb 4, 2007)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> no, as is pitifully clear, it was evry other fucker in hertfordshire, which is why the sense of deprivation is far more acute in such areas for the marginalised, excluded - as you'd know if you had any understanding of such concepts. however you're a swapbot. so you don't.



isnt hertfordshire home counties?


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## audiotech (Feb 5, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> not sure why you come on here MC5 .. regardless of RJ background or family .. s/he is raising some interesting points .. but yet again you ignore them  and yet again just pick up on the most unimportant things like the use of the word blue collar
> 
> these are political debating boards .. you got something usefull to say,say it or otherwise have you really nothing better to do?



There was a debate going on until our home counties  friend came along and ended up disrupting the thread with the debating style of Chubby Brown.


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## durruti02 (Feb 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> There was a debate going on until our home counties  friend came along and ended up disrupting the thread with the debating style of Chubby Brown.



mc you almost never debate ... deal with what he says .. all you ever do is come out with meaningless cliches like above .. seriously i suspect you do have something to say .. i just don't see it .. p.s. i don't expect to agree with you i just want to see you write something ..


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## audiotech (Feb 7, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> mc you almost never debate ... deal with what he says .. all you ever do is come out with meaningless cliches like above .. seriously i suspect you do have something to say .. i just don't see it .. p.s. i don't expect to agree with you i just want to see you write something ..



 Try reading the thread again.


----------

