# London Anarchist bookfair 2020



## Treacle Toes (Jul 29, 2019)

Seems this is back...New organisers.



> *Bookfair 2020*
> We’re excited to announce that an Anarchist bookfair will be returning to London in October 2020.
> 
> This event is being organised by a new collective of individuals from across London and the UK.
> ...




Bookfair 2020

Bookfair2020 (@bookfair2020) on Twitter

Bookfair 2020


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2019)

let's hope this will end well


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 29, 2019)

I Imagine there will be a lot more of this kind of stuff coming from the black hole that is twitter



I have noticed that there are fb posts entitled 'addressing concerns' too.


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## LDC (Jul 29, 2019)

<Sits back, grabs popcorn, starts writing divorce letter to the anarchist scene.>


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

That statement is rather arrogant.  Demands all the resources from the previous organisers. Ho ho ho. 

As for no politics that involves oppressing others, well fuck me that's revolution off the agenda then.


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## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2019)

It's over already.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 29, 2019)

So some who have been attacking the original collective are involved in wanting to put on a new book fair? Like a good old corporate takeover.


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## LDC (Jul 29, 2019)

Good to see that one of the 2 pictures the new Bookfair organisers have posted on Twitter is a teddy bear in an anarchist t-shirt. Someone will be needing that to throw out of their pram shortly...


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

So no dissing religious people?


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## redsquirrel (Jul 29, 2019)

TopCat said:


> So no dissing religious people?


I was wondering about that


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

Submit all books for pre approval.


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## LDC (Jul 29, 2019)

TopCat said:


> So no dissing religious people?



Depends. It's fully covered in the safer spaces policy though.

If the person doing the dissing scores more oppressed points than the person they're dissing then it's OK. If a number of people are involved in the disagreement then a points average will be taken of the people involved on each side, and then if the final result gets approved by the Bookfair safer spaces committee it's OK.


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## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2019)

"Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others" - this is the point of anarchism, It's exactly to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others in order to re-instate them at a higher universal level. Pathetic liberals.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> "Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others" - this is the point of anarchism, It's exactly to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others in order to re-instate them at a higher universal level. Pathetic liberals.


Exactly this. Fucking melts.


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## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2019)

So it'll be PKK stalls and Helen Steel Banned basically.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

The statement seems to fit Hare Krishna types more than anarchists.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> So it'll be PKK stalls and Helen Steel Banned basically.


No Mike Active. 

Sam Ambreen writing the safe space policy.


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## LDC (Jul 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> "Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others" - this is the point of anarchism, It's exactly to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others in order to re-instate them at a higher universal level. Pathetic liberals.



No, no, and no. You nasty, nasty person. Get with the program grandad. Anarchism is about cycling, punk music, poetry zines, being lovely to everyone (especially slightly weird people), and not liking big corporations.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No, no, and no. You nasty, nasty person. Get with the program grandad. Anarchism is about cycling, punk music, poetry zines, being lovely to everyone (especially slightly weird people), and not liking big corporations.


Apart from brew dog.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

Well it should be interesting to attend anyway. If it happens. Which I have doubts about.


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## chilango (Jul 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> <Sits back, grabs popcorn, starts writing divorce letter to the anarchist scene.>


Divorce letter? Yeah, might be a bit late for that in my case. I've been having affairs with Marxist scenes for a while now


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## Red Sky (Jul 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Divorce letter? Yeah, might be a bit late for that in my case. I've been having affairs with Marxist scenes for a while now



Woke up with the Morning Star.


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## Lurdan (Jul 29, 2019)




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## kenny g (Jul 29, 2019)

Will be interesting to see if any actual anarchists plan to attend.


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## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2019)

Lurdan said:


>


I was going to mention all the types blocked by the main movers yesterday - they can't let half the people attend because they are the same as fascists. To let them attend is to support fascism.


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## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Will be interesting to see if any actual anarchists plan to attend.


What's it got to do with you a SPGB-ketaminiet


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 29, 2019)

Ironic that the reduced turnout might leave them open to attack from actual fascists.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2019)

TopCat said:


> That statement is rather arrogant.  Demands all the resources from the previous organisers. Ho ho ho.
> 
> As for no politics that involves oppressing others, well fuck me that's revolution off the agenda then.



The previous organisers said they were happy to hand over to another group IIRC.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> "Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others" - this is the point of anarchism, It's exactly to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others in order to re-instate them at a higher universal level. Pathetic liberals.



Sometimes I wonder if even you know what you're mad about. It's a mystery to us over here in the English-speaking world anyway.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

Class struggle by any means necessary has always been my _mantra. 
_
Organising with Anarchists rather than Marxists was the logical choice for me since the 80's. More likely to go with my tactics. Not often the case now days. Lots of anarchists have bottled it these days (inc me). We are being replaced. Our anarchism is being replaced. By liberal fucking melts.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 29, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Sometimes I wonder if even you know what you're mad about. It's a mystery to us over here in the English-speaking world anyway.



Aren't you from the north? Allow me to translate.
Social revolution will involve removing the rights and oppressing the oppressor class. 
To bring about a new social order.
Not sure if this latest bunch understand this. They seem more keen on rights activism under capitalism.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Aren't you from the north? Allow me to translate.
> Social revolution will involve removing the rights and oppressing the oppressor class.
> To bring about a new social order.
> Not sure if this latest bunch understand this. They seem more keen on rights activism under capitalism.


We can't put anyone against the wall no more.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 29, 2019)

TopCat said:


> We can't put anyone against the wall no more.



Apart from other anarchists.


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## TopCat (Jul 29, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Apart from other anarchists.


Who benefits?


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## krink (Jul 30, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ironic that the reduced turnout might leave them open to attack from actual fascists.


A few rounds of "alerta!" should see them off


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## Fozzie Bear (Jul 30, 2019)

I think it's easy to slag this off (I baulked at the word "anathematic" FFS) and the liberal politics are a concern.

But there is no "demand" that the existing LABF collective hand over their resources. 

And, whilst Past Tense is a comrade and friend, I am surprised to see him saying that the collective "are not disinclined" to put the event on again. I emailed the collective about a year ago and offered to help and had a friendly reply. But nothing since. 

This latest -  - suggests that the new lot are, at least on the surface, open to discussion.

The list of confirmed stalls suggests that there will be some decent politics (and the "mixed bag" of Active Distribution lol) rather than the horror show lash up of ID politics and Stalinism that has been mooted:


Active Distribution
Activist Court Aid Brigade
AK Press (if in capacity)
Anarchist Federation
Art For Animals
Class War
Fourth Wave: London Feminist Activists
Freedom Press
Green Anticapitalist Front
International of Anarchist Federations
Jewdas
Karan Reshad
London Anti-Fascist Assembly
Plan C
PM Press
Prisonism
Reading Red Corner
Reel News/Final Hours
I have NO DOUBT that there will be terrible people there, with terrible politics, saying terrible things. But that is hardly new.

There is a meeting on the 10th of August...


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## Lurdan (Jul 30, 2019)

Nice to see they're applying a bit of nouce.








I'm quite entertained so double win I guess.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

I think giving Z control of Freedom etc social media is only going to backfire on the organisers.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I have NO DOUBT that there will be terrible people there, with terrible politics, saying terrible things. But that is hardly new.
> 
> There is a meeting on the 10th of August...


it wouldn't be the bookfair if terrible people with terrible politics didn't turn up and say terrible things.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 30, 2019)

I usually just buy books on Amazon these days. Saves the hassle.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I usually just buy books on Amazon these days. Saves the hassle.


yeh. i find i've almost all the books i want, and certainly more than the number of books i need. but i make a point of buying a book and making a few donations at every bookfair to help ensure that the groups i support have the wherewithal to make it through to the following bookfair - for most of the organisations it will be the day they get much of, if not the majority of, their income for the ensuing twelve months. i use amazon to identify books but in almost all cases then go to a real bookshop to order or buy them.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I usually just buy books on Amazon these days. Saves the hassle.


Deadpan.


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## Serge Forward (Jul 30, 2019)

I notice at least two Corbynite groups on that list! (Unless they've changed their position.)


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## Brainaddict (Jul 30, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I notice at least two Corbynite groups on that list! (Unless they've changed their position.)


Which ones?


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

Jewdas 
Anarchist federation


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 30, 2019)

Jewdas is the the one that  had Corbyn over for dinner isn't it?


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## Brainaddict (Jul 30, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> Jewdas is the the one that  had Corbyn over for dinner isn't it?


Yeah, though I think more because he was a friend of some of them than because the organisation is committed to him politically. I've noticed a tendency for the anarchist rumour mill to ascribe indefensibly moderate positions to organisations based on some opinions that some people in them have expressed. They usually have a variety of positions within them - I'm sure the anarchist federation does. I heard a year or so that Plan C had come out for Corbyn, when in fact a few members had written about it then later left the organisation because they couldn't convert the rest of them to Corbynism.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, though I think more because he was a friend of some of them than because the organisation is committed to him politically. I've noticed a tendency for the anarchist rumour mill to ascribe indefensibly moderate positions to organisations based on some opinions that some people in them have expressed. They usually have a variety of positions within them - I'm sure the anarchist federation does. I heard a year or so that Plan C had come out for Corbyn, when in fact a few members had written about it then later left the organisation because they couldn't convert the rest of them to Corbynism.


Jewdas are anarchists then?
Plan c are anarchists then?


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## Brainaddict (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Jewdas are anarchists then?
> Plan c are anarchists then?


They both have self-declared anarchists among them for sure. Don't know if they'd pass your purity tests though.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> They both have self-declared anarchists among them for sure. Don't know if they'd pass your purity tests though.


If they're not anarchists (in _their own definition_ not mine, no purity law) then what the frig are they doing adding their names to this statement? Why not Compass? Why not Momentum? Do you think that would make any sort of political sense?

It's fucking mates rates here isn't it - that's what you're up to.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> They both have self-declared anarchists among them for sure. Don't know if they'd pass your purity tests though.


maybe they're at the wrong bookfair being as this is the ANARCHIST bookfair, not a RADICAL bookfair.


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## Serge Forward (Jul 30, 2019)

So Plan C is no longer Plan Corbyn then?


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## Lurdan (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> If they're not anarchists (in _their own definition_ not mine, no purity law) then what the frig are they doing adding their names to this statement?



Statement ? 

I've seen there's a list of confirmed stallholders at the bottom of the announcement but It wasn't and still isn't clear to me that this means they've "signed" it. On the face of it it looks as if their names 'have been added' by the organisers themselves. Am I to assume that's wrong and that they're supposed to be on board with the nonsense on the Freedom twitter account ?


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

Lurdan said:


> Statement ?
> 
> I've seen there's a list of confirmed stallholders at the bottom of the announcement but It wasn't and still isn't clear to me that this means they've "signed" it. On the face of it it looks as if their names 'have been added' by the organisers themselves. Am I to assume that's wrong and that they're supposed to be on board with the nonsense on the Freedom twitter account ?


That's exactly how i was reading it  - as endorsement.

But even if not...why these particular pre-approved stalls from non-anarchists? This pre stuff didn't happen by accident.


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## Lurdan (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That's exactly how i was reading it  - as endorsement.
> 
> But even if not...why these particular pre-approved stalls from non-anarchists? This pre stuff didn't happen by accident.



Despite living in walking distance of Freedom, in real terms I'd imagine I'm looking at this from further away than you are. That said...

I certainly got the impression from the interchange between Past Tense and Freedom that there had been some 'pre stuff' as you put it and that the kindest interpretation was that the old organisers hadn't been kept in the loop. Personally I don't feel like speculating as to whether that meant the people who signed up for stalls were in some cabal with the new organisers. 

Indeed looking at the turns of expression used in the announcement and some of the twitter responses (for example 'We have reached out to the prior collective behind London Anarchist Bookfair 2017' and 'We hope they welcome a new collective taking on the role'), which to me suggest a fairly obvious degree of 'politician speak' at work, my initial question would be to ask exactly what was in the 'prospectus' that was sent to prospective stallholders ? 

I wouldn't have thought it very likely that such a disparate set of groups would sign up to anything which wasn't worded in fairly broad and non-polemical terms. 

But as I say I'm looking at this from entirely outside.


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## nyxx (Jul 30, 2019)

So there’s been several regional anarchist / radical / autonomous bookfairs which had pretty clear stances on transphobia, and which by all accounts were well attended. 
Is this new collective’s stance much different to those? 
Is there any reason why the org’s which had stalls at those events in smaller cities wouldn’t be able to have one at this?


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## nyxx (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That's exactly how i was reading it  - as endorsement.
> 
> But even if not...why these particular pre-approved stalls from non-anarchists? This pre stuff didn't happen by accident.



Was it pre approved tho? 
I assumed they’ve just said they want to have a stall after seeing the announcement. It was a Sunday, so that seems feasible...


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

If you believe that you'll believe anything.


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think it's easy to slag this off (I baulked at the word "anathematic" FFS) and the liberal politics are a concern.
> 
> But there is no "demand" that the existing LABF collective hand over their resources.
> 
> ...





A few groups I'd like to meet/speak to there. I'd go to this. But, equally, a number of not exactly Anarchist groups there. Opens them up to age old arguments from the likes of the Squeegees and the ICC...

Be glad to see it happen though.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 30, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Aren't you from the north? Allow me to translate.
> Social revolution will involve removing the rights and oppressing the oppressor class.
> To bring about a new social order.
> Not sure if this latest bunch understand this. They seem more keen on rights activism under capitalism.



Could we not give them a whole fortnight before we condemn them utterly and forever?


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> A few groups I'd like to meet/speak to there. I'd go to this. But, equally, a number of not exactly Anarchist groups there. Opens them up to age old arguments from the likes of the Squeegees and the ICC...
> 
> Be glad to see it happen though.


Call it / radical / autonomous bookfair i reckon.


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Call it / radical / autonomous bookfair i reckon.



Yeah. Why not?


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> A few groups I'd like to meet/speak to there. I'd go to this. But, equally, a number of not exactly Anarchist groups there. Opens them up to age old arguments from the likes of the Squeegees and the ICC...
> 
> Be glad to see it happen though.


No one wants to see that happen. Why the CWO (now ICT) should give us back our typewriters and the case for socialism clearly stated. ZZZZ

Though, this may happen.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yeah. Why not?


Because then it's not an anarchist bookfair.


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> No one wants to see that happen. Why the CWO (now ICT) should give us back our typewriters and the case for socialism clearly stated. ZZZZ
> 
> Though, this may happen.



I dunno might be a bit light relief from the more contemporary beefs.


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Because then it's not an anarchist bookfair.



Is it anyway?


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> I dunno might be a bit light relief from the more contemporary beefs.


I don't want that and there's enough fucking billy bragg book shit everywhere anyway.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> Is it anyway?


This one, pretty clearly not. The old one - yes, as far as could be.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 30, 2019)

Who are 'Art For Animals'?  - I've never heard of them.


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

I'm all for keeping it politically tight. But I'd rather the CWO than (say) some PKK cheerleaders.

But I'm not organising it, or an alternative to it. I'd just be happy for _something_ to go to and speak to people at.


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> This one, pretty clearly not. The old one - yes, as far as could be.



Yeah. I was referring to this one.


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## JimW (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'd just be happy for _something_ to go to and speak to people at.


Church coffee morning?


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## Benjamin F (Jul 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> A few groups I'd like to meet/speak to there. I'd go to this. But, equally, a number of not exactly Anarchist groups there. Opens them up to age old arguments from the likes of the Squeegees and the ICC...
> 
> Be glad to see it happen though.



I agree, I look forward to it starting up again. Glad to see local bookfairs and gatherings have taken off elsewhere too, I hope these continue rather than effort concentrates just on the London one. Not entirely anarchist groups and speakers have long been given space in the past - IWW and other Syndicalist groups (e.g. Education Workers Network), AFA, Jewish Socialist Group. I guess the difference between these groups and SPGB, ICC etc, is a matter of the degree of overlap with them and social anarchists, the willingness to work together, rather than be 'won over'. 

I notice that SolFed, AFN and IWW are amongst those that haven't signed up yet - is there an organisational reason for this, or have they not yet go round to responding....?


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## chilango (Jul 30, 2019)

JimW said:


> Church coffee morning?



Fuck it. That's all there is round here.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

Benjamin F said:


> I agree, I look forward to it starting up again. Glad to see local bookfairs and gatherings have taken off elsewhere too, I hope these continue rather than effort concentrates just on the London one. Not entirely anarchist groups and speakers have long been given space in the past - IWW and other Syndicalist groups (e.g. Education Workers Network), AFA, Jewish Socialist Group. I guess the difference between these groups and SPGB, ICC etc, is a matter of the degree of overlap with them and social anarchists, the willingness to work together, rather than be 'won over'.
> 
> I notice that SolFed, AFN and IWW are amongst those that haven't signed up yet - is there an organisational reason for this, or have they not yet go round to responding....?


I think you've questioned your own answers there.

Are you Ben F what done the book btw?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Could we not give them a whole fortnight before we condemn them utterly and forever?



Are you new here?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Are you Ben F what done the book btw?


I've long wondered the same


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I've long wondered the same


I have a specific research reason if so...


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## cantsin (Jul 30, 2019)

for those of us not very up on all this, is it all underpinned by trans / terf divisions ? But would that make the 17 / 18 organisers pro Helen Steel etc ? ( And then how come Active are back, who were vocally supportive of HS iirc ?

Or wrong end of stick ?


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2019)

cantsin said:


> for those of us not very up on all this, is it all underpinned by trans / terf divisions ? But would that make the 17 / 18 organisers pro Helen Steel etc ? ( And then how come Active are back, who were vocally supportive of HS iirc ?
> 
> Or wrong end of stick ?


It's a brand new active.


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## cantsin (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's a brand new active.



ah, that makes sense of a few things tbh, ta


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 30, 2019)

The millennial melts have won the battle and cleared house and are now the supreme champions to... sell books.


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## JimW (Jul 30, 2019)

Ruling the scene, the final prize.


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## LDC (Jul 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's a brand new active.



Bristol based now aren't they? Old guard left for the hills abroad I think.


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## imposs1904 (Jul 31, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> No one wants to see that happen. *Why the CWO (now ICT) should give us back our typewriters* and the case for socialism clearly stated. ZZZZ
> 
> Though, this may happen.



CBG, surely?

(Showing my age.)


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## Brainaddict (Jul 31, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> So Plan C is no longer Plan Corbyn then?


They never were. As I said, a subset of the group got excited about Corbyn, tried to convert the rest and failed, then left. I met the leavers a couple of months ago complaining bitterly about how the rest of Plan C had failed to get with the social democratic program.

Also Plan C have been doing stuff at the bookfair for years. I think a bit more generosity to people putting time into organising something is in order (and yes, it would have been in order with the last organisers too, but two wrongs don't make a right).


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## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2019)

imposs1904 said:


> CBG, surely?
> 
> (Showing my age.)


Yep, i was well off there with the groups.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The millennial melts have won the battle and cleared house and are now the supreme champions to... sell books.


back in the days of the anarchist youth network there was a plan some of them came up with to take over the anarchist movement through seizing control of freedom


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> back in the days of the anarchist youth network there was a plan some of them came up with to take over the anarchist movement through seizing control of freedom



Is that the same lot who were going to storm the US (iirc, might have been Israeli) embassy?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is that the same lot who were going to storm the US (iirc, might have been Israeli) embassy?


if it was around 2003, 2004 then almost certainly. and it was probably the us.


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## TopCat (Jul 31, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's a brand new active.


Do they distribute bibles now?


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## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Do they distribute bibles now?


I've not met anyone involved since they moved here - i shall maybe make of a point of doing so now and asking where the infamous banner is.


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## TopCat (Jul 31, 2019)

I asked if it was acceptable to distribute literature attacking religious people now. Apparently they have not sorted the nuances of this out.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Atheist privilege.


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## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

In essence isn't the new bookfair a repeat of the Anarcha Feminist bookfair that happened in (2014?)..

That was all No Terfs, No Swerfs and a safer spaces policy.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

There’s no hierarchy above... identity politics. What a mess. 
RIP.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Oh and maybe religious hierarchy. But we dunno yet.


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## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

This thread, honestly guys.
Disclourse, I'm one of the organisers.

Ok guys, honest question. If a new crew set up a bookfair elsewhere in the country and had a no transphobia policy would y'all be stressing like this?

Manchester, Bradford, Edinburgh have all set up since 2017 and had these policies.

Didn't see the drama about them, shit even the transphobes didn't bother much.

So whats the issue?
That it's a new crew?

The old one wasn't don't anything... how long was polite to wait? 3 years seems long enough.

We let the old crew know in reasonable manner, asked for the passing on of resources but no pressure and said the old crew peeps who were up for it would be welcome in the new crew.

Are we so scared of change that we can't stand the thought of anyone doing anything differant? or young blood giving it a shot?

I find it really weird this notion that we have to "ask permission" to hold a bookfair in the city of London. That doesn't seem Anarchist to me and tbh The old bookfair crew havn't said anything like that, it's just comrades stressing on the internet.

So what if it's not as big as the previous bookfair or as smooth. Thats life.

Do you remember what the bookfair was like back what when?

Stuff changes, develops... If you've got a problem with how "Anarchist" it is, get involved and make it more Anarchist instead of pissing to the wind on the internet a fucking week after a statement like the good comrades you are.

There is over a year for bookfair and I'm sure thats plenty of time for all y'all to considor the merits of a return to a bookfair in London, hope you guys can at the very least give the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, I'm here to try and answer any questions you might have in good faith.

shoot.

 (forgive the "guys" if you will ,see thread but TLDR, just a silly patter I've yet to stop properly, wont happen on thread again)


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

YOU ARE NOT WELCOME.

Lovely. As if it isn’t a niche market or anything.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Serious question, are you cops?


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

< are you cops?

No. The hours are shit and I don't look good in hi vis.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> < are you cops?
> 
> No. The hours are shit and I don't look good in hi vis.



So you’re not a construction or railway worker either.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Or maybe any worker at all.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you’re not a construction or railway worker either.



Nope. Tho I used to build exhibitions and conventions.

(I am a worker lol. working class as chippie mate)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Nope. Tho I used to build exhibitions and conventions.
> 
> (I am a worker lol. working class as chippie mate)



Well if you’re a ‘chippie’ I’m surprised that you just scoffed at hi vis given it’s mandatory PPE on building sites.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well if you’re a ‘chippie’ I’m surprised that you just scoffed at hi vis given it’s mandatory PPE on building sites.



I didn't scoff, I just said I don't look good in it. Can't all be sexy beasts can we.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I didn't scoff, I just said I don't look good in it. Can't all be sexy beasts can we.



Ok so you’re lying.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

ya daft twat.


----------



## colacubes (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> This thread, honestly guys.
> Disclourse, I'm one of the organisers.
> 
> Ok guys, honest question. If a new crew set up a bookfair elsewhere in the country and had a no transphobia policy would y'all be stressing like this?
> ...


 
I have no skin in the game here, but do you not think it’s a bit alienating to refer to everyone on this thread as “guys” twice in your first 2 sentences? It’s a sign of a pretty shitty brocialist mindset ime. Hopefully I’m wrong.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Ok, I'm pretty sexy in the right light.

Got a question about the bookfair?

You seem to be asking "If the bookfair organised by working class people".

Yes. Yes it is, and as we develop a wider organising crew the nature of our employement, vocation and how we survive capitalism will no doubt be fairly varied.

We havn't written any "policy" yet be least to say no fucking bosses or parasites will be welcome.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

colacubes said:


> I have no skin in the game here, but do you not think it’s a bit alienating to refer to everyone on this thread as “guys” twice in your first 2 sentences? It’s a sign of a pretty shitty brocialist mindset ime. Hopefully I’m wrong.



Fair play.
I'm not perfect and "guys" isn't always a great phrase. I guess it's still one of those kinks in my speach I'm yet to fix properly.

Thank you for highlighting it, I'll try and speak in a broader manner in future.

(other people in the collective are much more "on it" with that stuff thankfully)


----------



## colacubes (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Fair play.
> I'm not perfect and "guys" isn't always a great phrase. I guess it's still one of those kinks in my speach I'm yet to fix properly.
> 
> Thank you for highlighting it, I'll try and speak in a broader manner in future.


Easily done. But thank you for recognising it is problematic


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Ok, I'm pretty sexy in the right light.
> 
> Got a question about the bookfair?
> 
> ...



I didn’t ask if it was organised by working class people. You made a statement about hi vis and pretended to be working class. Don’t do it. You’ll get caught out in seconds.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t ask if it was organised by working class people. You made a statement about hi vis and pretended to be working class. Don’t do it. You’ll get caught out in seconds.



Not sure what I can do to "evidence" my working class life mate. Would you like to see a pile of Hi vis or something?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 31, 2019)

Old crew/new crew
Back to school crew


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Not sure what I can do to "evidence" my working class life mate. Would you like to see a pile of Hi vis or something?




You've probably noticed that wasting your time and generally asking leading, pointless questions is some people's favourite pastime.

Fucking with new posters can seem like a blood sport around here, despite all the many great things this site can be to people. 

If you are who you say you are you'll probably want to save some energy for the questions that aren't designed to trap you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Not sure what I can do to "evidence" my working class life mate. Would you like to see a pile of Hi vis or something?



Working class people don’t even talk like this. Working class life? 

Quit whilst you’re behind. Or maybe Rutita will arrange the paperwork to help you out here.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> You've probably noticed that wasting your time and generally asking leading, pointless questions is some people's favourite pastime.
> 
> Fucking with new posters can seem like a blood sport around here, despite all the many great things this site can be to people.
> 
> If you are who you say you are you'll probably want to save some energy for the questions that aren't designed to trap you.




haha fair play, I am a bit of a sucker for a hazing and tend to go along for the ride.

I also don't know the site to well, whether people like prefer individual responses or come back and do a few at once. 

Sorry for the spam etc


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

I’m not police because hi vis but I’m a ‘chippie’ honest although I didn’t connect the clothing.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not police because hi vis but I’m a ‘chippie’ honest although I didn’t connect the clothing.



I said I'm "working class as chippie mate"

Chippie as in chips. which I'm eating at the mo.

I actually work as a carer, piss about on photoshop and do tho odd bit of labour atm (thus the Hi Vis which I may or may not look sexy in)

But....anyways...the bookfair....

(look at me biting lol. I'll stop now. Going to stick to relevant questions not ripping on my shit)


----------



## colacubes (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Working class people don’t even talk like this. Working class life?
> 
> Quit whilst you’re behind. Or maybe Rutita will arrange the paperwork to help you out here.


Bullshit.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not police because hi vis but I’m a ‘chippie’ honest although I didn’t connect the clothing.



Not all builders wear hi viz.  If you were really working class you'd know that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I said I'm "working class as chippie mate"
> 
> Chippie as in chips. which I'm eating at the mo.
> 
> ...



Which area of the country does “working class as chippie” come from? 
I apologise for not recognising the slang.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Not all builders wear hi viz.  If you were really working class you'd know that.



You obvs don’t know site regs then mate.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

colacubes said:


> Bullshit.



I thought they were saying they were a chippy (Carpenter) and apologised for the misunderstanding.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Working class people don’t even talk like this. Working class life?
> 
> Quit whilst you’re behind. Or maybe Rutita will arrange the paperwork to help you out here.



The proliest of all the proles is back in full effect. How lovely.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You obvs don’t know site regs then mate.



Not every one works on big sites.  If you were on the tools you might know that.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which area of the country does “working class as chippie” come from?
> I apologise for not recognising the slang.



I'm from manc.
It's something me old man used to say.

knowing him he probably just made it up n I've been sounding like a dick ever since hahaha


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Not every one works on big sites.  If you were on the tools you might know that.



Oh yeah, I forgot that the rules don’t exist everywhere.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I'm from manc.
> It's something me old man used to say.
> 
> knowing him he probably just made it up n I've been sounding like a dick ever since hahaha



Ah you’re a northerner. 
I’ll leave be for now.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot that the rules don’t exist everywhere.



Which rules are you referring to?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Not every one works on big sites.  If you were on the tools you might know that.



What do you do by the way? On the tools lol


----------



## colacubes (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought they were saying they were a chippy (Carpenter) and apologised for the misunderstanding.


Whilst policing language that wc people use that you don’t recognise to score pathetic points. Proper class solidarity


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Which rules are you referring to?



The health and safety at work act and updated appendices. Which ones are you referring to?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

colacubes said:


> Whilst policing language that wc people use that you don’t recognise to score pathetic points. Proper class solidarity



I made a mistake and apologised.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What do you do by the way? On the tools lol



I'm on the tools. You?


----------



## colacubes (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I made a mistake and apologised.


And yet you carry on.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> I'm on the tools. You?



On the tools is a little vague. I’m electrical bias, working previously in construction but now in the railway industry.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

colacubes said:


> And yet you carry on.



Nope I stopped.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> On the tools is a little vague. I’m electrical bias, working previously in construction but now in the railway industry.



I'm in small builds. Where I don't wear hi viz


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> I'm in small builds. Where I don't wear hi viz



Good luck if you have an accident then mate and try to make a claim.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Small builds. I’ve done them also. If you have an accident and aren’t following the HSE guidelines then it’s your own lookout.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> The proliest of all the proles is back in full effect. How lovely.



I don’t know anyone who talks like this either. It’s weird.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Small builds. I’ve done them also. If you have an accident and aren’t following the HSE guidelines then it’s your own lookout.



Handrails , ladder access working at height, relevant PPE etc etc.

Hi viz not really relevant or a requirement until you start having heavy machinery or vehicles moving about.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Handrails , ladder access working at height, relevant PPE etc etc.
> 
> Hi viz not really relevant or a requirement until you start having heavy machinery or vehicles moving about.



You might want to check that.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You might want to check that.



I have


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> I have



If insurance or HR can void a claim, they will. I’m fairly certain that hi vis is mandatory on all construction sites. It’s gone mental in the last decade.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 31, 2019)

Not to distract from the PPE chat but just wondering if people on here get pissed about pulling comments from earlier in the thread and answering them? 

There are plenty of valid questions gone unanswered like.

I mean feel free to ask new ones too n all but yeah.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> I have



What kind of induction process are on these sites? None?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What kind of induction process are on these sites? None?



We go through the safer spaces policy very thoroughly.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> We go through the safer spaces policy very thoroughly.



Ok you’re lying and being a dick. You definitely have no clue about HSE law though.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What kind of induction process are on these sites? None?



Hi vis is not mandatory on most small sites, I've been working in construction on small and big sites as a site manager, PM and on the tools for 20 years (till last August).

Will not wearing it possibly affect a claim? Maybe, maybe not.

No there probably isn't an induction, or decent welfare, or fire drills, or mandatory PPE of other sorts.

Now can you please go back to discussing the bookfair and I'll go back to lurking.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Hi vis is not mandatory on most small sites, I've been working in construction on small and big sites as a site manager, PM and on the tools for 20 years (till last August).
> 
> Will not wearing it possibly affect a claim? Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> ...



Just because you can say you’re not following rules doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No induction?


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just because you can say you’re not following rules doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No induction?



Toilets there. *points*

Kettle there. *points*

Sign here *points*

Induction done.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just because you can say you’re not following rules doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No induction?



So a handyman puts up a shelf and has to wear hi viz?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Fair dos. It won’t help if you’re up for manslaughter but I agree, let’s get back to the book fair.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> So a handyman puts up a shelf and has to wear hi viz?



Read the regs.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 31, 2019)

My money's on 30 pages on hi-viz. Could be the mother of all derails.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> My money's on 30 pages on hi-viz. Could be the mother of all derails.



I'm just getting started!


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2019)

edited: actually derailed enough already. Sorry.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

Dunno. There’s the bog, there’s the tea bags, there’s the safer space...


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2019)

I asked about PPE in an anarchist utopia but deleted the post so Magnus' response makes sense.



Magnus McGinty said:


> Dunno. There’s the bog, there’s the tea bags, there’s the safer space...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

spitfire said:


>



Or rather,

There’s the gender fluid bog, there’s the ethically resourced tea bags..


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Read the regs.



They're actually quite vague and depend on employers risk assessments. The bigger the firm and the bigger the site the more rigourous those assessments are...

But yes Hi Viz is for the protection of soft bodies in the vicinity of big machines.  Which doesn't apply to say, re roofing a bungalow.

Hi Vis Clothing Safety Regulations - Safety & Protection On The Work Site - Buying Guides


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Or rather,
> 
> There’s the gender fluid bog, there’s the ethically resourced tea bags..



You'd be surprised how many gender neutral toilets you find on site. Even under capitalism.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 31, 2019)

When I last worked on a building site (1986) no fucker had ppe apart from toe tectors. Management, mind, had the full gear. Twats.

Fuck it, you've drawn me in


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 31, 2019)

It’s mostly a cunt when you have to wear a hard hat to work above a false ceiling in the middle of summer finishing snagging in a room that office types will work in a week later sans any protection at all. The mind boggles.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s mostly a cunt when you have to wear a hard hat to work above a false ceiling in the middle of summer finishing snagging in a room that office types will work in a week later sans any protection at all. The mind boggles.



And then the "clients" walk in with an area manager sans any PPE whatsoever. Been there. 

Someone, (not me), should start a thread about construction related whinges.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 1, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just because you can say you’re not following rules doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No induction?



Oh shut up for fucks sake 

Do we want a book fair or not? Since a group have stepped up and are willing to engage then maybe we should make an effort to do that. Even if tbh the posting style here and the twitter account of the organisers is kind of annoying.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 1, 2019)

JimW said:


> Ruling the scene, the final prize.



And all they had to do is to do what none of us could be arsed to do and organise a book fair.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Benjamin F said:


> I agree, I look forward to it starting up again. Glad to see local bookfairs and gatherings have taken off elsewhere too, I hope these continue rather than effort concentrates just on the London one. Not entirely anarchist groups and speakers have long been given space in the past - IWW and other Syndicalist groups (e.g. Education Workers Network), AFA, Jewish Socialist Group. I guess the difference between these groups and SPGB, ICC etc, is a matter of the degree of overlap with them and social anarchists, the willingness to work together, rather than be 'won over'.
> 
> I notice that SolFed, AFN and IWW are amongst those that haven't signed up yet - is there an organisational reason for this, or have they not yet go round to responding....?




Yeah, our invite policy is pretty much Anarchist, Anarchist friendly and associated radicals and comrades. So we'll be hosting eco groups, animal rights groups and that kind of thing.

I guess somewhere along the line people might be inclined to have a more outlined policy or some such who knows, the nature of the collective we be down to whoever gets involved, if some of the LABC crew get involved we'll probably rely on much of their experiance. 

This obviously doesn't extend to statists or those that like you say have to be "won over". RCG will be outside as usual ;p

Re; Why IWW etc arn't on the list.... we simply have not got round to sending out invites yet.

Those on the list are either involved in some way, close comrades who we've ran Bookfair 2020 by before hand or messaged us after reading the statement.
Even after we send invites there will probably be a delay so that they can review and discuss at their meetings and such but we've got plenty of time ^_^


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Call it / radical / autonomous bookfair i reckon.



Despite some people feeling we are not "Anarchist" because of our position on bigotry, we are an Anarchist Bookfair.

We didn't really want to call it Anarchist Bookfair / London Anarchist Bookfair quite yet incase the LABC forwhatever reason decided not to endorse or support us in taking them up on their offer from 2018. We would continue on simply as another Anarchist bookfair in london and felt it would be disingenuous to create further confusion with the name. Bookfair 2020 seemed like a reasonable leap.

Other bookfairs have used Radical / Autonomous and that's cool. Our decision not too is more to our own personal take and perhaps a degree of feeling that it implies we are an open space to other "radicals" such as the maoists or something or liberals like idk the Corbynistas. Tho honestly we didn't discuss it too much as at the end of the day Bookfair 2020 is perfectly servicable and it's just a name. If the LABC folk decided to give us support / join us, we can probably expect it to change back, if not, thats cool, no stresses or judgement on them.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There’s no hierarchy above... identity politics. What a mess.
> RIP.



We as individuals and by extention I suppose the collective, do not endorse cross class politics / IdPol. This doesn't mean we can willfully ignore or negate the inequalites in our society.

Fighting racism and sexism is essential to class struggle and tho this means sometimes organising based on these lines (such as anti fascist actions or kicking off with MRA fucks) at the end of the day what unites these struggles is the need to defeat capitalism and end the fucking poison of the state.

I reckon it's pretty bad form to negate the fucked up shit gay people go through by discounting any organsing along sexuality lines or banning homophobes from events as IdPol. (not saying anyone on thread is doing this but sadly fellow Anarchists sometimes do as I'm sure we're all aware)

If you see us inviting the Gay Police Association or some shit then yeah cuss us out as IdPol Liberals and take away our Anarchy badges.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> y'all



Lol.

Such *edge*


----------



## andysays (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Despite some people feeling we are not "Anarchist" because of our position on bigotry, we are an Anarchist Bookfair.
> 
> We didn't really want to call it Anarchist Bookfair / London Anarchist Bookfair quite yet incase the LABC forwhatever reason decided not to endorse or support us in taking them up on their offer from 2018. We would continue on simply as another Anarchist bookfair in london and felt it would be disingenuous to create further confusion with the name. Bookfair 2020 seemed like a reasonable leap.
> 
> Other bookfairs have used Radical / Autonomous and that's cool. Our decision not too is more to our own personal take and perhaps a degree of feeling that it implies we are an open space to other "radicals" such as the maoists or something or liberals like idk the Corbynistas. Tho honestly we didn't discuss it too much as at the end of the day Bookfair 2020 is perfectly servicable and it's just a name. If the LABC folk decided to give us support / join us, we can probably expect it to change back, if not, thats cool, no stresses or judgement on them.



Can you confirm that the Bookfair will be totally HSE compliant? Rules, as we all know at heart, are actually there for everyone's benefit.

Maybe you could appoint an experienced person to be in charge of Health and Safety on the day, including issuing appropriate PPE. This person could also vet all stallholders and attendees by means of their clothing, speech and other lifestyle details to ensure that they are authentically working class.

Unfortunately I can't suggest anyone for the role, as they would need a pretty unique set of skills to do the job. Anyone else have any suggestions?


----------



## LDC (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We as individuals and by extention I suppose the collective, do not endorse cross class politics / IdPol. This doesn't mean we can willfully ignore or negate the inequalites in our society.
> 
> Fighting racism and sexism is essential to class struggle and tho this means sometimes organising based on these lines (such as anti fascist actions or kicking off with MRA fucks) at the end of the day what unites these struggles is the need to defeat capitalism and end the fucking poison of the state.
> 
> ...



OK, I've got some other concerns outside the 'trans debate' that I'll try and address to you later as they'll be longer.

For the moment though reading the stuff you've put out so far I have a question for you. I'm an anarchist and have been for quite a few years. I don't think, however, that someone that was born male can 'become' female. I also think that in certain situations (very few tbh) a transwoman shouldn't expect or demand to be treated _exactly_ the same as someone that is a woman.

Am I welcome at this Bookfair?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

2020, meet 2017


----------



## chilango (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical 

I know you've sort of addressed this, but I think it deserves further discussion.

What exactly are the grounds for invites vs. exclusion in the book fair?

There's a number of nin-anarchist groups on the list already.

Plan C, for example, who I quite like have put our pro-Labour Party stuff, and at a glance appear to be quite sympathetic to Kurdish nationalism.

Class War, who stand for election.

Animal rights groups? Why?

My own opinion is that I don't particularly mind. I don't especially identify as an Anarchist anymore, so it's cool with me....

...but then I'm not putting on an Anarchist Book fair. How are you you going to deal with groups who feel they have just as much a claim as say Plan C but who might be less welcome?

Be good to see some increased clarity.

Good luck, I look forward to coming along in 2020.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> Rhyddical
> 
> I know you've sort of addressed this, but I think it deserves further discussion.
> 
> ...


there's standing for election to take part in the political process should one win and standing for election as a stunt. and cw's very much the latter, from the time when cw stood in kensington in 1988 up to the present. being as cw have been prominent in organising against elections, as in the '92 anti-election alliance, it seems perverse to say they're not anarchists on the basis they occasionally put forward candidates for their own political as opposed to electoral goals.


----------



## chilango (Aug 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there's standing for election to take part in the political process should one win and standing for election as a stunt. and cw's very much the latter, from the time when cw stood in kensington in 1988 up to the present. being as cw have been prominent in organising against elections, as in the '92 anti-election alliance, it seems perverse to say they're not anarchists on the basis they occasionally put forward candidates for their own political as opposed to electoral goals.



I've no problems with CW's electoral antics. But I wouldn't be surprised if some of the po-faced Anarchists did.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> I've no problems with CW's electoral antics. But I wouldn't be surprised if some of the po-faced Anarchists did.


ah the ideologically pure anarchists who maintain their purity through never actually doing anything


----------



## rekil (Aug 1, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Lol.
> 
> Such *edge*


It's a reference to a popular documentary about illegalist comrades who were active in the american deep south in the 1980s.


----------



## chilango (Aug 1, 2019)

I don't think "y'all" is on the banned list.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Aug 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> I don't think "y'all" is on the banned list.



It fucking well should be.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

andysays said:


> Can you confirm that the Bookfair will be totally HSE compliant? Rules, as we all know at heart, are actually there for everyone's benefit.
> 
> Maybe you could appoint an experienced person to be in charge of Health and Safety on the day, including issuing appropriate PPE. This person could also vet all stallholders and attendees by means of their clothing, speech and other lifestyle details to ensure that they are authentically working class.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't suggest anyone for the role, as they would need a pretty unique set of skills to do the job. Anyone else have any suggestions?




Magnus seems well versed in these matters if they want the job.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Aug 1, 2019)

copliker said:


> It's a reference to a popular documentary about illegalist comrades who were active in the american deep south in the 1980s.



I'm glad to have been corrected 

And here was I thinking its a dead giveaway for POMO liberal Goldsmith types LARPing* as left wing (this time as anarchist), and using a cover by appropriating the language of an oppressed group, this time black people from the deep south.



*Live Action Role Play


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> OK, I've got some other concerns outside the 'trans debate' that I'll try and address to you later as they'll be longer.
> 
> For the moment though reading the stuff you've put out so far I have a question for you. I'm an anarchist and have been for quite a few years. I don't think, however, that someone that was born male can 'become' female. I also think that in certain situations (very few tbh) a transwoman shouldn't expect or demand to be treated _exactly_ the same as someone that is a woman.
> 
> Am I welcome at this Bookfair?




So I'm going to avoid the trans rights debate proper but yeah, look, we're not the thought police, we're not going to have a ID sheet of everyone who ever said anything unsavoury. Not everyone is a prominant voice in the world of bigotry like... peeps like Posie Parker arn't invited but Pete from sough who doesn't really get the trans thing but whatever I'm interested in anti fracking, no ones gunna hassle ya.

No doubt  many people with these concerns will attend and simply respect the space by not sharing leaflets and not saying about it to cause a ruck. It's be flippin weird if we expected everyone to pass some kind of purity test for the Anarchist politics like and we wont be don't anything of the sort.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> Rhyddical
> 
> I know you've sort of addressed this, but I think it deserves further discussion.
> 
> ...




To grab a specific one Plan C were at 2017, Edin Bookfair this year etc... the nature of their organisation means they are quite diverse and from my experiance they'ver always ajusted their presentation for the space. I don't think Class War were actually trying to get elected rather that share a stage at tories and give em shit but that kind of stuff to me personally is quibble. We should have arguments about our differant methods, that is what Bookfairs are for really. Discussing AF's positon on National Liberation movements or some such.

Animal Rights groups have a long history of association with Anarchist and the scene in general. I think it was only a few years back that the HSA and AFN put out a joint statement of solidarity etc. Many sabs are Anarchos and there the worlds tend to blend. Bookfairs tend to have a lot of blur otherwise they would be rather bland, tho there is some value to having a Anarchist specific conferance which would be less about trading ideas with punters and workshops on plastic waste and more on tearing down the capitalist state like.

There isn't a hard and fast rule atm, I doubt there will be. Stall invites/ refusal will be heavily based on our personal expriance and knowledge. If LABC folk join us we will no doubt defer quite a bit to their experiances with whose a dick n not. We've said no to a few already, nice and polite, free association etc nothing hostile and aside from the transphobic lobby, who feel we owe them space, everyone has respected it.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> I don't think "y'all" is on the banned list.




Ah shit.  I don't know why it would be seen as "edgy" lol I lived in Maryland for a spell and sound like I'm one of the Dixie Chicks half the time. I'm writing her as me self rather than any BNS "formal voice"... I guess sometimes I'm an annoying twat haha


----------



## chilango (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> To grab a specific one Plan C were at 2017, Edin Bookfair this year etc... the nature of their organisation means they are quite diverse and from my experiance they'ver always ajusted their presentation for the space. I don't think Class War were actually trying to get elected rather that share a stage at tories and give em shit but that kind of stuff to me personally is quibble. We should have arguments about our differant methods, that is what Bookfairs are for really. Discussing AF's positon on National Liberation movements or some such.
> 
> Animal Rights groups have a long history of association with Anarchist and the scene in general. I think it was only a few years back that the HSA and AFN put out a joint statement of solidarity etc. Many sabs are Anarchos and there the worlds tend to blend. Bookfairs tend to have a lot of blur otherwise they would be rather bland, tho there is some value to having a Anarchist specific conferance which would be less about trading ideas with punters and workshops on plastic waste and more on tearing down the capitalist state like.
> 
> There isn't a hard and fast rule atm, I doubt there will be. Stall invites/ refusal will be heavily based on our personal expriance and knowledge. If LABC folk join us we will no doubt defer quite a bit to their experiances with whose a dick n not. We've said no to a few already, nice and polite, free association etc nothing hostile and aside from the transphobic lobby, who feel we owe them space, everyone has respected it.



Thanks.

Would it be nosey to ask who you've said "no" to?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Magnus seems well versed in these matters if they want the job.



How do you know if I’m welcome or not?


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Would it be nosey to ask who you've said "no" to?



Not sure about giving private info out sure you understand // cba with the subsequent drama of oi, but X are alright!  etc Don't need a telling off but one of RCG asked publically and were told they are welcome to do their usual outside. TBF most groups know there place with the ze Anarchists so wouldn't bother, really.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How do you know if I’m welcome or not?


 
I thought we'd gone over this. Are you sexy in Hi Vis? lol

To answer the original question tho

It's a small job site so the induction to those setting up with be pointing at the kettle and the lavs. Tho I imagine Volunteers on the day will have Hi Vis so peeps can find 'em easy.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 1, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> YOU ARE NOT WELCOME.
> 
> Lovely. As if it isn’t a niche market or anything.



were you reading a different statement or sthn ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 1, 2019)

cantsin said:


> were you reading a different statement or sthn ?



It’s how I interpreted it. Everything for everyone. Except, err...


----------



## cantsin (Aug 1, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s how I interpreted it. Everything for everyone. Except, err...



are you LLETSA ?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical

1_. "Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others is anathematic to Anarchism and will find no welcome nor tolerance at the bookfair itself or any associated event or space."_

I would like to remove rights and liberties from landlords, business owners, fascists, cops, the royal family etc. I would welcome your thoughts on that.

2. Will the August 10th meeting be invite only or an open meeting?

3. Some critics of the previous London Anarchist Bookfair got very agitated about criticism of religion. Is this something the new collective has discussed?

Also a general point - the bookfair will be a lot more accessible to ordinary people if use of words like "anathematic" is avoided.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

cantsin said:


> are you LLETSA ?


he's not, i've met magnus and he's definitely not the miserablist do-nothing wanker LLETSA is.


----------



## klang (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> TBF


The Book Front?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

littleseb said:


> The Book Front?


federation


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Rhyddical
> 
> 1_. "Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others is anathematic to Anarchism and will find no welcome nor tolerance at the bookfair itself or any associated event or space."_
> 
> ...




1. Ok, so thats an easy biting point but really it's a bit semantical. We all know and understand what "oppression" is and whose facing it. Parasites, cops and kings can fuck off, they arn't oppressed and even in a world where they "could be" they simply would exist surely. I remember reading something that after the commie rev in China the emporer ended up getting a job as a shoemaker, treated like any other person on the street. Personal I recon after the skum fucking everyone over answer for their crimes, makes up for it or whatever they'll be left to go about their buisness and pursue their happiness. Never thought about it but I'd be pretty against creating an underclass in society based on "your grand dad was a CEO" lol inb4 "I knew you were a maoist" lol 

2. This first one will be private, anyone is welcome to ask for an invite but the specifics are private simply becuase of the aggy people insisting we give them a platform. Later meetings will be public. People are welcome to join the collective at any level at any point, so there is no need to "get in early" or anything.

3. Only lightly... I suspect it'll be a thing we clarify down the line. I think is it's a bit more complex that "No religion" as an absolute, especially when we take into consideration oppression based on these lines. I've no time for Christianity or Islam but I'm sure as shit not going to condone Christians using Islam as an excuse to persecute people. Then there is the whole "post colonial issue", I think traditional faiths and such are a differant matter to global organised religions and we need more nuance, even it we want a future where religion has no appeal. Honestly I tend to defer to the communities that have gone through shit and respect their Anarchist thinking, The Indigenous Anarchist Federation (The one with the blue logo) are well worth a follow. What does that mean for Bookfair? IDK thats up to the collective. I'd expect it to be one of those areas that should be up for debate and barny in revolutionary space and at the end of the day there has always been a mingling of wiccas, new agers and spiritual people at these things and encounters beliefs counter to yours (provided they are not oppressive / homophobia / racism etc) is what it's all about. I suppose it's all about context and how anti-thesist present the the case for getting rid of the fucking churchs and oppressive insitutions that have caused so much destruction. We will endevour to make the space accessable and welcoming to Anarchists and Anarchist friendly people of faith tho so no DEATH TO QUAKERS banners is probably a given.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> 1. Ok, so thats an easy biting point but really it's a bit semantical. We all know and understand what "oppression" is and whose facing it. Parasites, cops and kings can fuck off, they arn't oppressed and even in a world where they "could be" they simply would exist surely. I remember reading something that after the commie rev in China the emporer ended up getting a job as a shoemaker. Treated like any other person on the street. Personal I recon after the skum fucking everyone over answer for their crimes, makes up for it or whatever they'll be left to go about their buisness and pursue their happiness. Never thought about it but I'd be pretty against creating an underclass in society based on "your grand dad was a CEO" lol


there's an easy and indeed sure way to prevent putative grand-kids facing such opprobrium, which i expect many people would be quite happy with for the royal family and which was used to great effect in china and vietnam against landlords


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)




----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


>



Wait no guillotine option? Psht.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> 1. Ok, so thats an easy biting point but really it's a bit semantical. We all know and understand what "oppression" is and whose facing it. Parasites, cops and kings can fuck off, they arn't oppressed and even in a world where they "could be" they simply would exist surely. I remember reading something that after the commie rev in China the emporer ended up getting a job as a shoemaker. Treated like any other person on the street. Personal I recon after the skum fucking everyone over answer for their crimes, makes up for it or whatever they'll be left to go about their buisness and pursue their happiness. Never thought about it but I'd be pretty against creating an underclass in society based on "your grand dad was a CEO" lol



Well clearly we have different understandings of this issue which is why I am asking. During any revolutionary upheaval it will be necessary to remove the _rights and liberties_ of landowners etc. In the meantime, even squatting a property is an infringement of the property rights of the owner. This isn't just semantics. It could be badly written, or I may be misunderstanding the statement. Perhaps both. But it is a weakness in the opening statement that several people here have read bad things into.



Rhyddical said:


> 2. This first one will be private, anyone is welcome to ask for an invite but the specifics are private simply becuase of the aggy people insisting we give them a platform. Later meetings will be public. People are welcome to join the collective at any level at any point, so there is no need to "get in early" or anything.



Fair enough. I will see if I pass muster for an invite. Thanks also for responding to my Q about religion.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well clearly we have different understandings of this issue which is why I am asking. During any revolutionary upheaval it will be necessary to remove the _rights and liberties_ of landowners etc. In the meantime, even squatting a property is an infringement of the property rights of the owner. This isn't just semantics. It could be badly written, or I may be misunderstanding the statement. Perhaps both. But it is a weakness in the opening statement that several people here have read bad things into..



Hands up, I'm not the best at explaining and tbf maybe I am dismissing it a bit easy. It's probably on me.

I guess I'm being a bit glib.

For the purpose of the statement "no oppression" fits tho imo... is there nuance and interesting debates to be had? sure. The question of Squatters and / owner rights is an interesting one... just not sure how we could put that in a statement while retaining the punch needed to counter bigotry.

I'm willing to acknowledge that the statement isn't perfect by any means and not sure but I think there may be some inclination to have a revised statement come the new year, no doubt taking onboard fair points like these.


----------



## klang (Aug 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> federation


splitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> For the purpose of the statement "no oppression" fits tho imo... is there nuance and interesting debates to be had? sure. The question of Squatters and / owner rights is an interesting one... just not sure how we could put that in a statement while retaining the punch needed to counter bigotry.


just say that bigots might get a slap


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Hands up, I'm not the best at explaining and tbf maybe I am dismissing it a bit easy. It's probably on me.
> 
> I guess I'm being a bit glib.
> 
> ...



It's obviously easier to criticise these things than it is to write them, but that statement is just not great imo, sorry.

It seems to use obscure words ("politic" and "anathematic") to say things that are quite vague. 

It uses phrases that are complete bullshit like "theory and praxis" to sound fancy. 

It uses phrases that are grammatically incorrect like "In respect to the events" (which is the least of the problems and would be fair enough in isolation)

"No oppression" is a utopian aim which I support. It's completely impractical as a guide to running a Bookfair in a capitalist world though.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> just say that bigots might get a slap



HAHA

Straight up, as I'm sure you might imagine setting up a bookfair is like spinning plates. At the same time as people getting upset at us for saying no bigots, we have others thinking we havn't gone far enough. Everyone is in this sort of "sussing us out" phase trying to work out if it's going to end up like a liberals XR gathering or more like a down n dirty punk FUCK YOU fest. We're trying to please the salty as fuck old guard and the yoot with intersectional focus. the LABC did this pretty well and got a wide range of ages and stuff in the door, I couldn't really tell you what the tone and temperment of Bookfair 2020 will be, tho it'll probably look and feel a lot like the old bookfair because 99% of it was a success and fuckin rocked. Truly I hope a few of them do get involved with 2020 like.

But yeah, bigots might get a slap.
We aint the tolerant left like.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's obviously easier to criticise these things than it is to write them, but that statement is just not great imo, sorry.



Fair points, notes taken.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> he's not, i've met magnus and he's definitely not the miserablist do-nothing wanker LLETSA is.


I read that name and despite the years that have passed,  my hackles _rise._


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 1, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> HAHA
> 
> Straight up, as I'm sure you might imagine setting up a bookfair is like spinning plates. At the same time as people getting upset at us for saying no bigots, we have others thinking we havn't gone far enough. Everyone is in this sort of "sussing us out" phase trying to work out if it's going to end up like a liberals XR gathering or more like a down n dirty punk FUCK YOU fest. We're trying to please the salty as fuck old guard and the yoot with intersectional focus. the LABC did this pretty well and got a wide range of ages and stuff in the door, I couldn't really tell you what the tone and temperment of Bookfair 2020 will be, tho it'll probably look and feel a lot like the old bookfair because 99% of it was a success and fuckin rocked. Truly I hope a few of them do get involved with 2020 like.
> 
> ...



Sound like the LARPing left.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 1, 2019)

Well make sure you get a venue with a decent pub nearby and be polite and warn them of hordes of pissed anarchists. More bar staff to take the money and dispense pints saved a lot of agg in the past.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Sound like the LARPing left.



A bit of live action work place organisation and empowering of working class people will be ok with me. You can bring your own elf ears tho.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 1, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well make sure you get a venue with a decent pub nearby and be polite and warn them of hordes of pissed anarchists. More bar staff to take the money and dispense pints saved a lot of agg in the past.



The venue in mind is near some semi disreputable establishments and you can be sure we're going to put on one hell of an after party so there will be plenty of space to get pissed, make merry and moan about how the kids took over bookfair.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 2, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> The venue in mind is near some semi disreputable establishments and you can be sure we're going to put on one hell of an after party so there will be plenty of space to get pissed, make merry and moan about how the kids took over bookfair.


There is a long standing tradition for many to rock up in a nearby pub and stay there all day, undermining revolutionary activity by drinking and taking drugs. After party is good but no substitute.
Semi disreputable sounds like my sort of pub.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 2, 2019)

TopCat said:


> There is a long standing tradition for many to rock up in a nearby pub and stay there all day, undermining revolutionary activity by drinking and taking drugs. After party is good but no substitute.
> Semi disreputable sounds like my sort of pub.



We'll do our best to prepare the locals and mines a pint of brown.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> The venue in mind is near some semi disreputable establishments and you can be sure we're going to put on one hell of an after party so there will be plenty of space to get pissed, make merry and moan about how the kids took over bookfair.


i hope it's better than the fiasco in the wetherspoons that led to the 2005 battle of holloway road


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i hope it's better than the fiasco in the wetherspoons that led to the 2005 battle of holloway road



Aaah the halcyon days where we used to end up fighting the police rather than each other.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

TopCat said:


> There is a long standing tradition for many to rock up in a nearby pub and stay there all day, undermining revolutionary activity by drinking and taking drugs. After party is good but no substitute.
> Semi disreputable sounds like my sort of pub.



This is normally what I do. I look round the stalls, go to a couple of talks then straight for the social. I overdid it too early last time so didn’t make T-Chances but there was a decent after party the year before (?) in some squatted building in Farringdon (?)

Actually I’m talking about the second and third but last time there. The last time ended up in some Spoons in Turnpike Lane but went home early again.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

Does SolFed still exist in London? I like what they’re up to in Brighton.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This is normally what I do. I look round the stalls, go to a couple of talks then straight for the social. I overdid it too early last time so didn’t make T-Chances but there was a decent after party the year before (?) in some squatted building in Farringdon (?)
> 
> Actually I’m talking about the second and third but last time there. The last time ended up in some Spoons in Turnpike Lane but went home early again.


Some spoons in turnpike lane = the tollgate


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Does SolFed still exist in London? I like what they’re up to in Brighton.



They have a North London and South London branchs with active FB accounts so presumable still active.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> They have a North London and South London branchs with active FB accounts so presumable still active.



No posts since 2018 doesn’t strike me as particularly active.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No posts since 2018 doesn’t strike me as particularly active.



2018 ! oh yeah. My bad. South Londons last was in March? So I guess not particulary active, least not on fB...


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2019)

"arrogant", "corporate takeover", "pathetic liberals", assorted lifestyle anarchist cliches , "millenial melts" "not real anarchists" ...  so much for the principles of mutual aid, solidarity and co-operation...vanguardism alive and well though...seems a thankless task just got a lot more thankless


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

There wasn’t many “principles of mutual aid, solidarity and cooperation” from those who cunted off the previous organisers, was there?


----------



## chilango (Aug 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> "arrogant", "corporate takeover", "pathetic liberals", assorted lifestyle anarchist cliches , "millenial melts" "not real anarchists" ...  so much for the principles of mutual aid, solidarity and co-operation...vanguardism alive and well though...seems a thankless task just got a lot more thankless



Did I miss something? I'm not sure that's what the thread has been saying...


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There wasn’t many “principles of mutual aid, solidarity and cooperation” from those who cunted off the previous organisers, was there?



We informed them and invited them to join us/ support us, be the tidy comrades I'm sure (despite some disagreements on how to handle certasin issues) they are.

No where in the statement do we insult them or make demands. Infact they've done a wonderful job holding it together and keeping it going for so long. It's a shame bookfair stopped in 2018 and we're just bringing it back.

Should we as Anarchists have to ask and receive permission from other Anarchists to do an Anarchist bookfair in a city they used to do an Anarchist bookfair?

There has been zero animosity between the two organisations as far as I'm aware.

I expect when they do share an answer it'll be like "g'luck guys, you'll need it" and a couple of them with more energy will come and pass on their smarts.


Chilango, unfortantly pretty much all of that has been banded about on the thread. It's why I (one of the organisers) made an account ;p

Easy to chat shit through rather than it be some totally anon folks I guess ;p


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We informed them and invited them to join us/ support us, be the tidy comrades I'm sure (despite some disagreements on how to handle certasin issues) they are.
> 
> No where in the statement do we insult them or make demands. Infact they've done a wonderful job holding it together and keeping it going for so long. It's a shame bookfair stopped in 2018 and we're just bringing it back.
> 
> ...



Hi again. I wasn’t making accusations against yourself (or any of the new organisers as far as I know). 
This relates back to the letter of disassociation (?) to the then present organisers from quite a significant amount of groups. I’ve no way of ascertaining if you were a signatory or not.
Hope that clears it up.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 3, 2019)

Ah right o.

Yeah we'll be having to try and work through some of that Statement ourselves obviously.

I mean even aside from the Transphobia issue, there were other concerns which we'll no doubt get a chance to fuck up on and piss people off over, but we'll be trying to live up to the issues and not give anyone too much to reason to hate us afterwords. ;p


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Aug 3, 2019)

God your SUCH a fuckin victim in all this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 3, 2019)

chilango said:


> Did I miss something? I'm not sure that's what the thread has been saying...


Are you really saying you haven't read any of those things on this thread? None at all?


----------



## chilango (Aug 3, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you really saying you haven't read any of those things on this thread? None at all?



It's not been the general response, has it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 3, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's not been the general response, has it?



What does 'general' response mean? Those things have been said on this thread so I don't understand why you don't want that acknowledged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> "arrogant", "corporate takeover", "pathetic liberals", assorted lifestyle anarchist cliches , "millenial melts" "not real anarchists" ...  so much for the principles of mutual aid, solidarity and co-operation...vanguardism alive and well though...seems a thankless task just got a lot more thankless


Liberals are pathetic


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What does 'general' response mean? Those things have been said on this thread so I don't understand why you don't want that acknowledged.



Do you even go to the book fair or is this just some academic bust up you want online for the fun of it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you even go to the book fair or is this just some academic bust up you want online for the fun of it?


Let's have a look...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you even go to the book fair or is this just some academic bust up you want online for the fun of it?


She didn't post on the 2016 thread and 60 posts on the 2017 thread most of them bilious and none of them I could see saying either 'I'm an anarchist' or 'I was there' - so, no to 1 and yes to 2


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> She didn't post on the 2016 thread and 60 posts on the 2017 thread most of them bilious and none of them I could see saying either 'I'm an anarchist' or 'I was there' - so, no to 1 and yes to 2



I suspected as much. It’s somewhat odd to involve yourself in the politics of an event that you don’t even attend/support.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I suspected as much. It’s somewhat odd to involve yourself in the politics of an event that you don’t even attend/support.


an event which is important to so many people on the boards... 

For you and me it would be, anyway...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> an event which is important to so many people on the boards...
> 
> For you and me it would be, anyway...



It’s seen as a big thing for friends of mine in the north. In some cases it might be the only time I’ll see them that year. And then you get those with no vested interest dipping their noses in and stirring the pot.


----------



## chilango (Aug 3, 2019)

*sighs*

Oh well. Whatever. Nevermind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

chilango said:


> *sighs*
> 
> Oh well. Whatever. Nevermind.


Nirvana have a lot to answer for


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s seen as a big thing for friends of mine in the north. In some cases it might be the only time I’ll see them that year. And then you get those with no vested interest dipping their noses in and stirring the pot.


Oh I'm sure she has a vested interest, as will become clear if you read her 60 posts on the 2017 thread. It's just not anarchism though


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh I'm sure she has a vested interest, as will become clear if you read her 60 posts on the 2017 thread. It's just not anarchism though



I should have said a vested interest in its health and survivability as scarce infrastructure of the libertarian left.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 4, 2019)

Will any thought be put into increasing ventilation over previous venues? The one commonality amongst the various strands I have noticed over the past years is the pong factor. Might be political pheromones or a shared aversion to washing. 

Will dogs be allowed? Used to make book fairs more entertaining in years gone past. 

Can we re-introduce a cider bar? Preferably some fine scrumpy from Welsh/ West Country/ Nottingham comrades. 

Wetherspoons is CCTV'd to the nines (with audio recording).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 4, 2019)

Are you an anarchist kenny g ?
Have you ever been to the bookfair?
Do you have a vested interest?

I actually don't want you to answer these questions but it seems that even talking about the bookfair here on Urban is being 'policed', so some might ...ironic really.

Oh also, your words, phrasing and writing style will be analysed to ascertain your prole authenticity.


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2019)

Are you now or have you ever been...


----------



## ska invita (Aug 4, 2019)

chilango said:


> Did I miss something? I'm not sure that's what the thread has been saying...


yeah you missed it, thats *exactly* what many posters said, i can link the posts if you really want, and it wouldve likely stayed that way until one of the organisers popped up and the insults slowed down a bit after that (after some your not really working class nonsense).

Funny, if there's one lesson from the bookfair fiasco that shut it down was if something is not to your liking don't immediately pile on and denounce everyone in a spirit of "the organisers are the enemy" as not surprisingly they'll walk away. Treat people on the same side as your friends and help to build. Yet within 24 hours of announcing this thing there's similiar shooting down point scoring and grandstanding

Whoever the poor sods are who have decided to give this a try are obviously up against it from the off and have come out with their backs to the wall. I dont envy them one bit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 4, 2019)

Although I’m an anarchist, I’ve never been to the London book fair. (I’m rarely in London. I’ve been, on average, once a decade). I don’t know the players. So it’s all a bit baffling looking at this from a distance.

How would people who understand what’s going on explain it to anarchists from other parts?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Will any thought be put into increasing ventilation over previous venues? The one commonality amongst the various strands I have noticed over the past years is the pong factor. Might be political pheromones or a shared aversion to washing.
> 
> Will dogs be allowed? Used to make book fairs more entertaining in years gone past.
> 
> ...


Do you have a source for the audio (besides bouncer bodycams, which isn't a surprise)?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Although I’m an anarchist, I’ve never been to the London book fair. (I’m rarely in London. I’ve been, on average, once a decade). I don’t know the players. So it’s all a bit baffling looking at this from a distance.
> 
> How would people who understand what’s going on explain it to anarchists from other parts?


A new lot are making rumblings about putting on a book fair in London next year, I'll keep you posted.

That ought to do the trick


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## chilango (Aug 4, 2019)

ska invita said:


> yeah you missed it, thats *exactly* what many posters said, i can link the posts if you really want,



Fair enough. My bad.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 4, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you an anarchist kenny g ?
> Have you ever been to the bookfair?
> Do you have a vested interest?
> 
> ...



You seem fine with the feminism threads being policed and troublemakers being kicked off those and yet your standards change when the boot is on the other foot it seems.


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## kenny g (Aug 4, 2019)

Look y'all, stop chipping about and let's get back to the OP. I wish the BF every success and dare say will try to make the effort to attend. For all the internet drama most previous problems have involved a small number of people and for the vast majority of attendees the BF has been a great experience. The variety of strands of anarchism present has always been its strength.


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## Gaia (Aug 5, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, though I think more because he was a friend of some of them than because the organisation is committed to him politically. I've noticed a tendency for the anarchist rumour mill to ascribe indefensibly moderate positions to organisations based on some opinions that some people in them have expressed. They usually have a variety of positions within them - I'm sure the anarchist federation does. I heard a year or so that Plan C had come out for Corbyn, when in fact a few members had written about it then later left the organisation because they couldn't convert the rest of them to Corbynism.



When I first heard about Plan C, my immediate reaction was that they were - for probably obvious reasons - a pro-Corbyn group. I don't, in all honesty, know too much about what they stand for even now.


----------



## Gaia (Aug 5, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> They never were. As I said, a subset of the group got excited about Corbyn, tried to convert the rest and failed, then left. I met the leavers a couple of months ago complaining bitterly about how the rest of Plan C had failed to get with the social democratic program.
> 
> Also Plan C have been doing stuff at the bookfair for years. I think a bit more generosity to people putting time into organising something is in order (and yes, it would have been in order with the last organisers too, but two wrongs don't make a right).



So why have a name that makes themselves SOUND like they are then…?! Because that's what first thought (but, then, I'm totally higgorant, I'm more of an armchair anarchist). Have Plan C been in existence BC (before Corbyn)…?


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## Gaia (Aug 5, 2019)

colacubes said:


> I have no skin in the game here, but do you not think it’s a bit alienating to refer to everyone on this thread as “guys” twice in your first 2 sentences? It’s a sign of a pretty shitty brocialist mindset ime. Hopefully I’m wrong.



Oh, do calm down dear. Just because someone uses the word 'guys' as a generalist term, *DOES NOT* mean they are invalidating your right, as a woman, to exist. Okay…?

I would now like to propose that the words 'brocialist' and 'brocialism' be added to the banned words list (and, just so CC doesn't think she's being left out, let's ban use of 'guys' as a generalist term - would that make you feel better< CC…?).

Look, I have no problems with feminism, what I do have a problem with is feminists who take every use of a masculine term as a personal affront/affront to 'The Sisterhood'. I don't like extremes of any kind (that said, I wouldn't mind extremely fast broadband -  my download speed averages 500kb/s - upload…? We're talking bytes).


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> So why have a name that makes themselves SOUND like they are then…?! Because that's what first thought (but, then, I'm totally higgorant, I'm more of an armchair anarchist). Have Plan C been in existence BC (before Corbyn)…?



The name and group pre-exists Corbynism.


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 5, 2019)

I always assumed plan c because plan a = capitalism and plan b = command economy socialism/state socialism/whatever. Would seem the obvious connection to make to me.


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 5, 2019)

Also don't want to respond directly or make it a big deal given posters other threads but 'calm down dear' no thanks


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## LDC (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> When I first heard about Plan C, my immediate reaction was that they were - for probably obvious reasons - a pro-Corbyn group. I don't, in all honesty, know too much about what they stand for even now.



Rather than just guessing maybe have a look and read their website then, how to find this stuff out isn't mysterious.


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## Sue (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> Oh, do calm down dear. Just because someone uses the word 'guys' as a generalist term, *DOES NOT* mean they are invalidating your right, as a woman, to exist. Okay…?
> 
> I would now like to propose that the words 'brocialist' and 'brocialism' be added to the banned words list (and, just so CC doesn't think she's being left out, let's ban use of 'guys' as a generalist term - would that make you feel better< CC…?).
> 
> Look, I have no problems with feminism, what I do have a problem with is feminists who take every use of a masculine term as a personal affront/affront to 'The Sisterhood'. I don't like extremes of any kind (that said, I wouldn't mind extremely fast broadband -  my download speed averages 500kb/s - upload…? We're talking bytes).



colacubes can obviously speak for herself but imo your first paragraph is not okay. You may not agree with the sentiment expressed -- which is obviously fine and up for debate. Telling her to 'calm down dear' on the other hand is not.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2019)

Sue said:


> colacubes can obviously speak for herself but imo your first paragraph is not okay. You may not agree with the sentiment expressed -- which is obviously fine and up for debate. Telling her to 'calm down dear' on the other hand is not.


Yes, this. Gaia . It does seem particularly off that you chose a popular patriarchal trope to use against colacubes. You don't have to agree with her but insulting her in that way polarises and creates the very extremes you claim not to like.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You seem fine with the feminism threads being policed and troublemakers being kicked off those and yet your standards change when the boot is on the other foot it seems.


This is pretty funny given how much sneering and stirring you've done on this thread already. Nothing I've posted has been to cause trouble but carry on projecting.


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## andysays (Aug 5, 2019)

Woop woop...


----------



## colacubes (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> Oh, do calm down dear. Just because someone uses the word 'guys' as a generalist term, *DOES NOT* mean they are invalidating your right, as a woman, to exist. Okay…?
> 
> I would now like to propose that the words 'brocialist' and 'brocialism' be added to the banned words list (and, just so CC doesn't think she's being left out, let's ban use of 'guys' as a generalist term - would that make you feel better< CC…?).
> 
> Look, I have no problems with feminism, what I do have a problem with is feminists who take every use of a masculine term as a personal affront/affront to 'The Sisterhood'. I don't like extremes of any kind (that said, I wouldn't mind extremely fast broadband -  my download speed averages 500kb/s - upload…? We're talking bytes).



I think you should probably take a step back and take a couple of deep, calming breaths. I asked the poster a question in a fairly polite way, he (I assume but don’t know for sure) actually agreed and accepted it was a reasonable challenge. I at no point suggested he was invalidating my right as a women (you assume) to exist. So I have to confess I find your ire several weeks and hundreds of posts later somewhat baffling tbh


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## rich! (Aug 8, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t ask if it was organised by working class people. You made a statement about hi vis and pretended to be working class. Don’t do it. You’ll get caught out in seconds.



Did we ever get to the bottom of whether you're the landlord of KK MCCools? I seem to remember you went pretty quiet on that.


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## nyxx (Aug 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I always assumed plan c because plan a = capitalism and plan b = command economy socialism/state socialism/whatever. Would seem the obvious connection to make to me.



Sounds like a fair summary of what a plan C member had to say about the name. 
Corbyn wasn’t anywhere near as significant when they formed.


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## Saul Goodman (Aug 8, 2019)

London... Anarchist...


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## Dom Traynor (Aug 13, 2019)

rich! said:


> Did we ever get to the bottom of whether you're the landlord of KK MCCools? I seem to remember you went pretty quiet on that.


Great pub that used to be my local


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## Rhyddical (Aug 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Although I’m an anarchist, I’ve never been to the London book fair. (I’m rarely in London. I’ve been, on average, once a decade). I don’t know the players. So it’s all a bit baffling looking at this from a distance.
> 
> How would people who understand what’s going on explain it to anarchists from other parts?




In short, the previous bookfair collective refused to add transphobes to the list of people not welcome after the 2017 Bookfair where transphobes shared out transphobic leaflets.
They decided not to run a bookfair anymore after this for a variety of reasons and invited others to take up the challenge.

We've taken up the challenge.
Some people are upset because we've added transphobes to the list of people not welcome.

Thats a policy every other Anarchist bookfair has btw.


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## LDC (Aug 20, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> In short, the previous bookfair collective refused to add transphobes to the list of people not welcome after the 2017 Bookfair where transphobes shared out transphobic leaflets.
> They decided not to run a bookfair anymore after this for a variety of reasons and invited others to take up the challenge.
> 
> We've taken up the challenge.
> ...



I don't think it's the list as much as it's the definition that is getting used.

And portraying it as just about people being 'upset' is bollocks. Some people think it's politically a dodgy direction to be going down. After the 2017 Bookfair there were all sorts of people making demands that X and Y were banned for all sorts of reasons.

And the previous Bookfair collective took a pragmatic decision not to enforce bans on people as it was impossible to police, partly as every year they got a quite number of requests for certain people to be banned and dealing with that would have been massively time consuming, disruptive, and not actually their responsibility.

Are you changing this and having a list of banned people? If so what's the criteria for someone being added?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> In short, the previous bookfair collective refused to add transphobes to the list of people not welcome after the 2017 Bookfair where transphobes shared out transphobic leaflets.
> They decided not to run a bookfair anymore after this for a variety of reasons and invited others to take up the challenge.
> 
> We've taken up the challenge.
> ...


oh this will end well


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## danny la rouge (Aug 20, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> In short, the previous bookfair collective refused to add transphobes to the list of people not welcome after the 2017 Bookfair where transphobes shared out transphobic leaflets.
> They decided not to run a bookfair anymore after this for a variety of reasons and invited others to take up the challenge.
> 
> We've taken up the challenge.
> ...


Having not been there, I’m going assume part of the disagreement is going to be over definitions of transphobia.  That’s something which has rumbled on here on these boards in recent times. Having stated my position, I have no interest in rejoining that particular fray.

The wider subject of identity politics is something we’ve also tussled with over the years. There’s a thread in our philosophy forum that I started, and which has had new posts in recent days. It’s an area I don’t think consensus can be reached. I think people are using similar terms to mean different things. 

I’ve got some recent related reading to get through that a comrade kindly sent me, which I hope to get around to when real life allows. But while I can see the importance of these topics, I don’t know how much energy I want to spend further debating them. 

For what it’s worth, this post from a long running thread I’ve now ducked out of is a précis of where I am on the trans debate: https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/we-need-to-talk-terf-bigots.359235/page-70#post-15614485

And here’s the ID Pol thread: 

Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

I’m guessing the version I’m told about what went on with the London bookfair will depend on who is telling me.


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## ska invita (Aug 20, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Some people are upset because we've added transphobes to the list of people not welcome.
> Thats a policy every other Anarchist bookfair has btw.


..also worth remembering that the MayDay Women lot did get booted out in 2017 - the old collective found them unwelcome too.
Its a nettle that needs grasping and these cloth-eared nightmare people who care only about themselves and give zero shits what events they destroy in the process need telling they're not welcome in black and white, as asking nicely doesnt work.
 As to writing a definition of transphobia that everyone is happy with, its not going to happen, and waiting for it to come along means waiting for kingdom come. Though Id like to be proved wrong. If someone thinks they can write it they should suggest it in a spirit of mutual aid. Id genuinely love to see it.

This is a scab thats not going to heal properly and its so easy to pick and get it bleeding again.


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## nyxx (Aug 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> ..also worth remembering that the MayDay Women lot did get booted out in 2017 - the old collective found them unwelcome too.



I thought they got ejected by a bunch of people who weren’t the then collective - I’d go so far as to say by people who weren’t anything to do with that collective.

The trouble continued / escalated when a close friend of several in that collective sought to defend the mayday women; And because she was their friend, & has been an anarchist activist (unlike the pair from mayday), ejecting her was not straightforward and it escalated more and dragged on and on.




ska invita said:


> Its a nettle that needs grasping and these cloth-eared nightmare people who care only about themselves and give zero shits what events they destroy in the process need telling they're not welcome in black and white, as asking nicely doesnt work.



Yup, I agree with that.


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## LDC (Aug 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> ..also worth remembering that the MayDay Women lot did get booted out in 2017 - the old collective found them unwelcome too.
> Its a nettle that needs grasping and these cloth-eared nightmare people who care only about themselves and give zero shits what events they destroy in the process need telling they're not welcome in black and white, as asking nicely doesnt work.
> As to writing a definition of transphobia that everyone is happy with, its not going to happen, and waiting for it to come along means waiting for kingdom come. Though Id like to be proved wrong. If someone thinks they can write it they should suggest it in a spirit of mutual aid. Id genuinely love to see it.
> 
> This is a scab thats not going to heal properly and its so easy to pick and get it bleeding again.



It's also worth remembering that a fair few of the people turning up and complaining about all sorts of things at the Bookfair are also not anarchists.

There were a load of complaints about all sorts of issues to do with the Bookfair, the Active 'Religion is Stupid' banner for example, as well as there always being a whole load of demands that certain individuals are banned for various things they've done/accused of having done.

What's going to be the policy for this for the 2020 Bookfair? Is everyone welcome until they do something unwelcome at the Bookfair itself, or can people be banned for something they've done previously, or even for support of something that's been done?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's also worth remembering that a fair few of the people turning up and complaining about all sorts of things at the Bookfair are also not anarchists.
> 
> There were a load of complaints about all sorts of issues to do with the Bookfair, the Active 'Religion is Stupid' banner for example, as well as there always being a whole load of demands that certain individuals are banned for various things they've done/accused of having done.
> 
> What's going to be the policy for this for the 2020 Bookfair? Is everyone welcome until they do something unwelcome at the Bookfair itself, or can people be banned for something they've done previously, or even for support of something that's been done?


The vetting panel will allow people in one by one after establishing their identity, politics and motive for attending the event


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## LDC (Aug 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The vetting panel will allow people in one by one after establishing their identity, politics and motive for attending the event



That's the thing isn't it, who gets to decide and on what grounds?

Is one accusation or letter demanding someone (or a group) is banned for something they've once done or said or written? Or a demand that someone that supported them gets banned too? And it's why the previous Bookfair took the pragmatic decision not to ban people or groups.

And why has this been a workable policy for so many years until it comes to the trans stuff?


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## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2019)

Should be up to lib-dem and labour voting non-anarchists on here really.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That's the thing isn't it, who gets to decide and on what grounds?
> 
> Is one accusation or letter demanding someone (or a group) is banned for something they've once done or said or written? Or a demand that someone that supported them gets banned too? And it's why the previous Bookfair took the pragmatic decision not to ban people or groups.
> 
> And why has this been a workable policy for so many years until it comes to the trans stuff?


denunciations should be sent to the vetting panel (formally the committee of bookfair safety) by the end of august 2020, to allow time for these to be read and investigated.


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## LDC (Aug 21, 2019)

I'll be denouncing and banning myself comrades.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'll be denouncing and banning myself comrades.


self-denunciations must be witnessed by two other comrades of good standing (rule 89, paragraph d., subsection iv)


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'll be denouncing and banning myself comrades.



Just spend all day in the nearest pub instead. It’s out of their jurisdiction.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 21, 2019)




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## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just spend all day in the nearest pub instead. It’s out of their jurisdiction.


under the previous regime that was indeed true. however, the 2020 collective are organising patrols to ensure the security of the bookfair, and they may demand to see people's vetting documents.


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## LDC (Aug 21, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


>




I'm trans and so's my wife.


----------



## andysays (Aug 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That's the thing isn't it, who gets to decide and on what grounds?
> 
> Is one accusation or letter demanding someone (or a group) is banned for something they've once done or said or written? Or a demand that someone that supported them gets banned too? And it's why the previous Bookfair took the pragmatic decision not to ban people or groups.
> 
> And why has this been a workable policy for so many years until it comes to the trans stuff?


You're banned for asking awkward questions


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## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> You're banned for asking awkward questions


no one gets banned for asking awkward questions. that would never do.

he's banned for flouting the correct procedure, which is to complete an enquiry form following which the appropriate sub-committee will provide a response within 28 working days.


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## kenny g (Aug 21, 2019)

I thought it started getting absurd when people went after the organisers for not dealing "effectively" with the catholic worker person supporting Assange. Credit the audience with some common sense!!


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## Rhyddical (Aug 22, 2019)

Are you changing this and having a list of banned people? If so what's the criteria for someone being added?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I've no idea where this notion of a "list of people" came from. Every organisation has a informal "list" of groups not welcome... you know, like the Britain First and the Stalin Appreciation Society, NAMBLA etc etc
> 
> If you are a fascist and we know it you'd be told to fuck off.
> If you are a homophobe and we know it you'll be given the heave ho.
> ...


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 22, 2019)

I obviously don't know how qoutes work lol


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## Rhyddical (Aug 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That's the thing isn't it, who gets to decide and on what grounds?



Who gets to decide who is fascist?

Most of the time it's pretty clear and we trust our comrades when they say "that guy with the KICK EM OUT" T-shirt is a bit fashy.
Same thing with Transphobes.

There isn't any need for pettyfoggling and red tape. I'm not getting dragged into some nuance contextless debate about whose a big ol transphobe and who isn't. If you think you might hate trans people don't come, if you hang out with WP and hold "trans women destroy lesbianism" banners don't come... if you don't really understand what non binary is or can't get used to pronouns, don't fret, come, meeting people, educate yourself, be a better comrade.

Seems folk would rather make up bullshit out the new collective being IDPol or Liberal pen pushers than fellow Anarchists holding an event with a policy that works literally everywhere else.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 22, 2019)

The equating of those with transphobic views with fascists is stupid and disingenuous. 

The whole reason why this issue has become so toxic within the left is because some of those that hold views you consider transphobic are/were comrades. People have not stood on picket lines with fascists, they've not been in organisations with fascists, they've not fought local campaigns with fascists. Yet I know some of the people who I have fought and organised alongside and who I consider comrades would be/have been labelled as transphobic. Now that does not mean they get a free pass for any view but it does mean that the relationship to them is very different to that with fascists.


----------



## LDC (Aug 22, 2019)

Exactly has just been said, and I appreciate you're trying to make this a simple issue, but it isn't.


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## LDC (Aug 22, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ... a policy that works literally everywhere else.



At the Manchester Bookfair where some people were removed for giving out leaflets (after they'd given them out and were sitting down chatting with no plans to do anything else) it was disputed that they should be ejected by a number of people, with a fair few more that were worried about getting involved.

When questioned as to why people were being kicked out they were told 'for giving out transphobic literature'. People doing the ejecting then admitted they hadn't read them, but they knew they were transphobic as the people had given similar out before. When told that four of the group had never given out anything at Bookfairs before, they said that they were being thrown out for giving out leaflets with someone that was known to have given out transphobic leaflets before at another Bookfair.

Is that your workable policy?

And your point isn't even true, if it's so workable and commonly agreed why then was there such a fight about people being thrown out at the 2017 Bookfair in London?


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 22, 2019)

I thought the idea of the book fair was to promote anarchism. That means winning people over to your arguments. Banning people for holding the wrong views seems counter productive.


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## Red Sky (Aug 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> The equating of those with transphobic views with fascists is stupid and disingenuous.
> 
> The whole reason why this issue has become so toxic within the left is because some of those that hold views you consider transphobic are/were comrades. People have not stood on picket lines with fascists, they've not been in organisations with fascists, they've not fought local campaigns with fascists. Yet I know some of the people who I have fought and organised alongside and who I consider comrades would be/have been labelled as transphobic. Now that does not mean they get a free pass for any view but it does mean that the relationship to them is very different to that with fascists.



The reason "transphobic" views are equated with fascism is so that idiots get to live out some "Antifa " fantasy by punching 60 year old female librarians rather than taking their chances with male scaffolders  in their mid forties.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought the idea of the book fair was to promote anarchism. That means winning people over to your arguments. Banning people for holding the wrong views seems counter productive.


once people agree that fascists - such as members or supporters of the nf, bnp or generation identity, say - should be excluded and where they gain admission assisted to the nearest exit, it's only a matter of determining which other views are sufficiently abhorrent to receive the same treatment. i only hope our organising committee can come up with a list which will be widely accepted.


----------



## chilango (Aug 22, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Who gets to decide who is fascist?
> 
> Most of the time it's pretty clear and we trust our comrades when they say "that guy with the KICK EM OUT" T-shirt is a bit fashy.



Remember Green Anarchist, Alternative Green and the "Heretics Bookfair"?


----------



## LDC (Aug 22, 2019)

Alternative Green were given pretty short shrift as soon as they split from Green Anarchist, Green Anarchist were always allowed at the Bookfair, and then the short lived Heretics Boofair was something quite different. All that Third Position and National Anarchist stuff they started getting into.

In a similar vein there's rows involving Deep Green Resistance, Derrick Jensen, and Lierre Keith to do with trans stuff, but really my life is too short (and they're all too marginal) to be bothered about looking into that.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 22, 2019)

Effectively there's broad consensus on what fascism and ultra nationalism are and why they're inimical to our movement, there is no such consensus over "transphobia" , "gender critical feminism " and associated themes so now we resort to rules and physical force.


----------



## chilango (Aug 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Alternative Green were given pretty short shrift as soon as they split from Green Anarchist, Green Anarchist were always allowed at the Bookfair, and then the short lived Heretics Boofair was something quite different. All that Third Position and National Anarchist stuff they started getting into.
> 
> In a similar vein there's rows involving Deep Green Resistance, Derrick Jensen, and Lierre Keith to do with trans stuff, but really my life is too short (and they're all too marginal) to be bothered about looking into that.



Indeed, and there was the spat between Stewart Home and Green Anarchist. With him basically labelling them fascists iirc.

It got sorted, despite being nowhere near as simple as wearing a "kick 'em out" t-shirt.


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## LDC (Aug 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Indeed, and there was the spat between Stewart Home and Green Anarchist. With him basically labelling them fascists iirc.



I vaguely remember that came shortly before he started calling all anarchists fascists...?

Read it and weep...

Stewart Home:Anarchist Integralism
Anarchism is reactionary, anarchists are stupid

And dare I mention him.... Larry O'Hara....


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I vaguely remember that came shortly before he started calling all anarchists fascists...?
> 
> Read it and weep...
> 
> ...


Larry O'Hara?


----------



## LDC (Aug 22, 2019)

Now you've done it...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Now you've done it...


----------



## smokedout (Aug 22, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Effectively there's broad consensus on what fascism and ultra nationalism are and why they're inimical to our movement, there is no such consensus over "transphobia" , "gender critical feminism " and associated themes so now we resort to rules and physical force.



It's not really about what people think as individuals is it though?  It's about people distriibuting leaflets full of lies which accuse trans rights of being rape culture, stickers/flyers in the toilets designed to make trans people feel unwelcome and the ever present threat of a huge row blowing up or someone like Venicce Allen turning up sticking cameras in peoples crotches to post on social media, then you are effectively creating an event trans peoople cannot attend, or will not want to attend.

I don't know how you square this circle, but the idea that there are no consequences to allowing GC propaganda and activists to have a political presence at the bookfair is consequence free just isnt true.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I vaguely remember that came shortly before he started calling all anarchists fascists...?
> 
> Read it and weep...
> 
> ...



I can’t recall Stewart labelling all anarchists as fascist but instead drawing links between the anti-semitism and love for secret societies that Bakunin had, and the anti-working class bullshit that Green Anarchist came out with. 

Indeed, from what I can remember Anarchist Integralism distinguishes between “sussed” anarchists like the ACF and GA - and expresses surprise that they would share a platform. 

Worth remembering that the old bookfair was happy to host meetings discussing these very criticisms, btw.


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## charlie mowbray (Aug 22, 2019)

If you bother actually reading the steaming pile of shite that Anarchist Integralism is, you'll find amazing distortions of ACF positions and so yes, Home is just as hostile to "sussed" anarchists like the ACF as he is to GA.


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 22, 2019)

charlie mowbray said:


> If you bother actually reading the steaming pile of shite that Anarchist Integralism is, you'll find amazing distortions of ACF positions and so yes, Home is just as hostile to "sussed" anarchists like the ACF as he is to GA.



I can’t be arsed to read it again to be honest, Charlie. I’d agree with you that Stewart was hostile to the ACF but would say that he criticised it for different things than GA.

From what I can remember ACF/AF’s “in the tradition” articles were a good distillation of the parts of anarchist/communist history that influenced the org and obviously that did not include the maddest aspects of Bakuninism.


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## Athos (Aug 22, 2019)

smokedout said:


> It's not really about what people think as individuals is it though?  It's about people distributing leaflets full of lies which accuse trans rights of being rape culture...



My starting point would be that anarchists should be free not just to think but also to speak (and hear) the ideas they want to.  That freedom should extend to views with which other anarchists disagree, consider to be untrue, or even find offensive.  Freedom of conscience and expression ought to trump any 'right' not be disagreed with or offended, for the health of anarchist thought and practice.

As such, the only political *opinions* that should be banned from being expressed at the bookfair are those so obviously inconsistent with anarchist principles that no anarchist would entertain e.g. fascism.  Notably, no such consensus has yet been reached with regard to gender critical feminism_; _whilst all anarchists would condemn transphobia, a great many consider women's right to organise against patriarchal oppression on the basis of their material reality (i.e. biology) not to be a transphobic position.

And so, like all contentious opinions short of fascism, I'd say that issue can and should be argued out amongst the attendees.




smokedout said:


> ... someone like Venicce Allen turning up sticking cameras in peoples crotches to post on social media...



Notwithstanding my point above, I would accept however, that there is certain *conduct* which might justify the banning of individuals.  Personally, I don't think peacefully handing out leaflets crosses that line, whereas photographing someone's crotch would (albeit I'm not aware of that having happened at the bookfair); I'd have no problem with anyone doing that being asked to leave.




smokedout said:


> ... then you are effectively creating an event trans people cannot attend, or will not want to attend.



I can see why you would elide those two things, but they're different, and the difference is really significant.  Obviously, the bookfair should not become a place that trans people *cannot* attend e.g. be excluded by organisers or be at risk of physical harm.  But we should recognise that, if they *don't want to* because, say, it's too upsetting to them to hear ideas with which they disagree, then, sadly, so be it.  Whilst it's quite right for the organisers to take robust steps to protect trans people's physical safety, and whilst it's incumbent on all of us to try to express ourselves in a way that minimises upsetting comrades, hurt feelings aren't a proper basis to restrict the exchange of ideas.




smokedout said:


> I don't know how you square this circle, but the idea that there are no consequences to allowing GC propaganda and activists to have a political presence at the bookfair is consequence free just isnt true.



True.  But there are also consequences of banning them.  Again, to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Personally, I consider the consequences of going down the road of bans for those who won't toe the organisers' 'party line' about a subject on which there's so little consensus amongst anarchists to be pretty disastrous for the future of anarchism.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2019)

Athos said:


> My starting point would be that anarchists should be free not just to think but also to speak (and hear) the ideas they want to.  That freedom should extend to views with which other anarchists disagree, consider to be untrue, or even find offensive.  Freedom of conscience and expression ought to trump any 'right' not be disagreed with or offended, for the health of anarchist thought and practice.
> 
> As such, the only political *opinions* that should be banned from being expressed at the bookfair are those so obviously inconsistent with anarchist principles that no anarchist would entertain e.g. fascism.  Notably, no such consensus has yet been reached with regard to gender critical feminism_; _whilst all anarchists would condemn transphobia, a great many consider women's right to organise against patriarchal oppression on the basis of their material reality (i.e. biology) not to be a transphobic position.
> 
> ...


tbh the expression of any political view which is predicated on hierarchy has no place at the bookfair, hierarchy being plainly incompatible with anarchist principles. you don't have to reach all the way to fascism to start finding things which shouldn't be at the bookfair. if your rcg-er wants to wander round and browse the stalls, i'd expect them to be free to do so. if they want to have a meeting, on the other hand, they have the remainder of the world in which to do it.


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## Athos (Aug 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh the expression of any political view which is predicated on hierarchy has no place at the bookfair, hierarchy being plainly incompatible with anarchist principles. you don't have to reach all the way to fascism to start finding things which shouldn't be at the bookfair. if your rcg-er wants to wander round and browse the stalls, i'd expect them to be free to do so. if they want to have a meeting, on the other hand, they have the remainder of the world in which to do it.



Yeah, that's probably right.  But fascism was an 'e.g.' rather than an 'i.e.'.  Your point doesn't really impact on what I was saying; I don't think all the views that some would like banned are hierarchical, and so obviously at odds with anarchist principles.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2019)

Athos said:


> Yeah, that's probably right.  But fascism was an 'e.g.' rather than an 'i.e.'.  Your point doesn't really impact on what I was saying; I don't think all the views that some would like banned are hierarchical, and so obviously at odds with anarchist principles.


no, but a lot of them are - individual hierarchies of what constitutes a man or woman, for example.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2019)

anyway squabble among yourselves, i've got things to do and people to meet


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## Athos (Aug 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no, but a lot of them are - individual hierarchies of what constitutes a man or woman, for example.



But genuine gender critical views are about tearing down those hierarchies (though I appreciate some transphobic stuff tries to hide behind claims of GC, but isn't genuine).


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## smokedout (Aug 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh the expression of any political view which is predicated on hierarchy has no place at the bookfair, hierarchy being plainly incompatible with anarchist principles. you don't have to reach all the way to fascism to start finding things which shouldn't be at the bookfair. if your rcg-er wants to wander round and browse the stalls, i'd expect them to be free to do so. if they want to have a meeting, on the other hand, they have the remainder of the world in which to do it.



Perhaps worth remembering that one of the original non anarchist GC disrupters gloated about being responsible for the demise of the bookfair on twitter.  On the recent mumsnet thread about the Owen Jones attack it moved from I dont like him but I condemn violence to he's lying, exaggerated, lefties have it coming because milkshakes and antifa are the real terrorists within a few pages.  There are people explicitly opposed to everything anarchism stands for now embedded within GC circles who would delight in being able to destroy another bookfair.  There  are  wider considerations about whether this political grouping should be given a presence and as there is no openly anarchist GC group I'm aware of then excluding them seems entirely uncontroversial to me.


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## Athos (Aug 22, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Perhaps worth remembering that one of the original non anarchist GC disrupters gloated about being responsible for the demise of the bookfair on twitter.  On the recent mumsnet thread about the Owen Jones attack it moved from I dont like him but I condemn violence to he's lying, exaggerated, lefties have it coming because milkshakes and antifa are the real terrorists within a few pages.  There are people explicitly opposed to everything anarchism stands for now embedded within GC circles who would delight in being able to destroy another bookfair.  There  are  wider considerations about whether this political grouping should be given a presence and as there is no openly anarchist GC group I'm aware of then excluding them seems entirely uncontroversial to me.



The question of whether non-anarchists should be given space at the bookfair, is a slightly different question from whether or not certain positions are incompatible with anarchism.  I'd agree that, say, christian fundies who express GC views didn't ought to have a space, but I don't think anarchists who express a GC position should be deprived of a space (as long as they're not threatening/abusing trans people, of course).


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no, but a lot of them are - individual hierarchies of what constitutes a man or woman, for example.



And also hierarchies of who gets banned, and who decides.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> At the Manchester Bookfair where some people were removed for giving out leaflets (after they'd given them out and were sitting down chatting with no plans to do anything else) it was disputed that they should be ejected by a number of people, with a fair few more that were worried about getting involved.
> 
> When questioned as to why people were being kicked out they were told 'for giving out transphobic literature'. People doing the ejecting then admitted they hadn't read them, but they knew they were transphobic as the people had given similar out before. When told that four of the group had never given out anything at Bookfairs before, they said that they were being thrown out for giving out leaflets with someone that was known to have given out transphobic leaflets before at another Bookfair.
> 
> ...



It's almost as if the anti-fascism the bookfair organisers lay claim to, doesn't recognise the fascism inherent to "policing" people on the basis of rumour and innuendo.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought the idea of the book fair was to promote anarchism. That means winning people over to your arguments. Banning people for holding the wrong views seems counter productive.



Shut it, transphobe!!!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> The reason "transphobic" views are equated with fascism is so that idiots get to live out some "Antifa " fantasy by punching 60 year old female librarians rather than taking their chances with male scaffolders  in their mid forties.



Sadly true. Anti-fascism is saturated with weekend warriors, and "antifa" of the Hope Not Hate and Unite Against Fascism type - people to whom physical force anti-fascism is anathema, and to whom grassing on genuine anti-fascists to the old bill is proper behaviour.

As for that cunt "Flick" Wood, you can bet they'd beat the 8 second 100 metres running from a real fascist.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Now you've done it...



Nah, he has to be mentioned 3 times by the same person before he appears through your mirror, and rips your throat out.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> At the Manchester Bookfair...



This isn't how it happened at all, there were no leaflets.

Helen and friend went in, pretty much went to a table after a quick browse and sat down.
The organisers spoke with the venue and the venue decided to eject summarily as HS had made her position on trans people quite clear since prior events.

They asked her to leave, she refused.
They told her exactly how they were going to remove her.
They removed her.

Source; my own eyes.

They also had a anti transphobia policy and aside from that incident it was a pretty good day.

The fascist/Transphobe parrallels are unfortunatly quite strong, not just in the intensity and furiousity in which some of them act but for some transphobic people and groups it is a full on connection, politically and economically. Remember this isn't a "we don't like HS policy" it's a policy against transphobes. Many of whom have strong ties to right wing Christian movements fromt he states and who share fascist ideologies / Free Tommy shit. Some of the people that get lumped into "feminists concerned about womens spaces" are full on out right bigots and even in that realm many women have noticed the extremly dodgy shit their peers are saying.

I mean I don't know if any of you kept up with things at the time but after 2017, the transphobes not only called the police but they gloated about wrecking the bookfair. 

They arn't comrades.
That others such as Helen ended up in their camp is really dissapointing and a lot of people were really hurt by that and subsent slides into transphobia to the point where upon our announcing, the day after she shared posie's meme that amounts to "trans women are men" and that shit.. that shit aint cool.

An Anti-Transphobia policy (or any anti bigotry position) is not about specific people, it's deeply problematic to reduce it to that. We are all quite differant. HS isn't Posie Parker or Graham Lineham, HS also isn't Steve from Slough who "just doesn't get the trans thing". We can't write a policy for everyone and their cat, so we have broad sweeps. I don't know if Luke sharing the "Stronger borders" leaflet is in the EDL but he's going to get ejected anyways.

Anarchism is about sharing ideas and winning people over yes, and there will be talks and workshops no doubt for that very purpose, but if your political starting point is one entrenched in bigotry or you come to protest trasn rights or share transphobic leaflets you can fuck off.

This policy seems pretty clear and you know what, there is SO MUCH MORE interesting stuff about Anarchist Bookfairs than having a shitty disengenous discussion about the nuance of a broad policy.

Truly, If any of you happen to be transphobic, just stay at home or sort out another event or whatever. This is a space that will be welcoming to the trans community. It will also be a space where we protect other vunerable members of the Anarcho scene by not allowing bigots of any fashion to occupy and disrupt the space.

If for a moment they were actually Anarchistic they would accept our choice of free association. Women's Place or whoever are more than welcome to rent a space in London on the same day and share their ideas whatever, none of our bees wax really.

It's not like we're going to have mind readers at the door is it. Most people who might be "not cool" with the trans stuff who might attend will have the decency to respect the space and just go about enjoying the other 99% of Anarchistic shit that they care for.

I think that policy is pretty clear and it's the last I'll go on about it, accept it or don't that's readers choice. It's just how it is.


Out of interest.

Can anyone name an distinctly Anarchist organisation/network that does not believe transphobia to be counter to Anarchism? I'm aware of a few individulists who are anti-trans but not any one that would want a stall. Just curious really.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 23, 2019)

Anyone who's familiar with even the basics of anarchist theory knows prejudice is not as simple as 'hating X'. 
The people that I consider comrades (and yes I DO still consider them comrades) are opposed to the physical/verbal abuse of transpeople, want equality for transpeople but they disagree with others about what the equality actually means in practice. They have some concerns and the GR act, they believe that cis/natal-women sometimes have the right to organise in cis/natal-women only spaces, they sometimes have issues with transwomen appearing on all women shortlists. Now you might agree or disagree with those positions but they are clearly (a) more complex than simply 'hating transpeople' and (b) not remotely equivalent to fascism. 

Frankly I don't for a minute believe you are not aware of this. You know full well that the people that you've blocked on twitter/facebook are not calling for transphobia to be acceptable, rather what they see as transphobia is different to what you see as transphobia. We all all know that there are gray-zones where there will be differences of opinion over whether something is prejudiced or not. No one doubts abusing someone as a kike Is anti-semitic but clearly opinions differ as to whether BDS or being opposed to a Jewish state are anti-semitic. The pretence that having an anti-transphobia policy is a problem is totally disingenuous, you know that is not what people are taking issue with.


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical - Genuinely, thank you for taking on this thankless task, even though I don't agree with every aspect of how you've gone about it.



Rhyddical said:


> ... the day after she shared posie's meme that amounts to "trans women are men" and that shit.. that shit aint cool.



Whilst it's not an opinion I share, are you able to explain why the idea that trans women are men is inimical to anarchism _per se_?  (Please note that's not the same thing as saying some people who hold that opinion do so for reasons that are incompatible with anarchist principles, or that some that hold those views also holds views which are anathema (both of which are undoubtedly true).)

That'd be a good start to building a consensus, absent which bans for 'heresy' look like the high-handed exercise of power by those at the top of a hierarchy (the organisers) over those at the bottom (anarchists who'd like to attend) .

ETA: redsquirrel is right - no anarchist argues that transphobia should be accepted; the argument is about whether or not certain positions are necessarily transphobic.  Something your rhetoric seems to skip over as a given.


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## LDC (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> This isn't how it happened at all, there were no leaflets.
> 
> Helen and friend went in, pretty much went to a table after a quick browse and sat down.
> The organisers spoke with the venue and the venue decided to eject summarily as HS had made her position on trans people quite clear since prior events.
> ...



You're wrong.

I was there, and I chatted to some of the people giving out the leaflets (and I saw and read them) that then went and sat down and were then thrown out, and I watched the whole thing and talked to people involved from different 'sides'.

Also if there were no leaflets being given out why were the other 3 people thrown out with Helen as well then? Associating with the wrong person?


----------



## LDC (Aug 23, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Perhaps worth remembering that one of the original non anarchist GC disrupters gloated about being responsible for the demise of the bookfair on twitter.  On the recent mumsnet thread about the Owen Jones attack it moved from I dont like him but I condemn violence to he's lying, exaggerated, lefties have it coming because milkshakes and antifa are the real terrorists within a few pages.  There are people explicitly opposed to everything anarchism stands for now embedded within GC circles who would delight in being able to destroy another bookfair.  There  are  wider considerations about whether this political grouping should be given a presence and as there is no openly anarchist GC group I'm aware of then excluding them seems entirely uncontroversial to me.



For sure, but what you're doing is what loads of people do which is mix up GC people outside (and who are hostile to) the anarchist scene with GC people within the anarchist scene, of which there are quite a significant number, but who are finding themselves told that their positions on this subject are not welcome in movements and groups they've been involved with for decades in some cases, despite the fact that their views are not contrary to also being anti-State or anti-capitalist.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> For sure, but what you're doing is what loads of people do which is mix up GC people outside (and who are hostile to) the anarchist scene with GC people within the anarchist scene, of which there are quite a significant number, but who are finding themselves told that their positions on this subject are not welcome in movements and groups they've been involved with for decades in some cases, despite the fact that their views are not contrary to also being anti-State or anti-capitalist.


it is perfectly possible to be anti-state and anti-capitalist and still hold a number of views many people would find distasteful, for example racist, sexist, homophobic or indeed transphobic notions. i don't see why long involvement should protect people from being called out when their views fall short of what the group feels are relevant core beliefs.


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## LDC (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it is perfectly possible to be anti-state and anti-capitalist and still hold a number of views many people would find distasteful, for example racist, sexist, homophobic or indeed transphobic notions. i don't see why long involvement should protect people from being called out when their views fall short of what the group feels are relevant core beliefs.



And again, there's no consensus on what those core beliefs are, even within trans circles.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And again, there's no consensus on what those core beliefs are, even within trans circles.


you say this like it's some sort of trump card, but it isn't. there doesn't need to be any consensus about this, save within the groups you're on about. there's no actual consensus about many aspects of anarchism, but we don't wait for everyone to agree before getting together. if a group feels that a view is anathema, then it's imo fine for that group to say to people who hold that position that they're no longer welcome. how else would you have it done, long involvement gives you a pass if you hold views the group as a whole finds objectionable?


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you say this like it's some sort of trump card, but it isn't. there doesn't need to be any consensus about this, save within the groups you're on about. there's no actual consensus about many aspects of anarchism, but we don't wait for everyone to agree before getting together. if a group feels that a view is anathema, then it's imo fine for that group to say to people who hold that position that they're no longer welcome. how else would you have it done, long involvement gives you a pass if you hold views the group as a whole finds objectionable?



Who is 'the group' though? Are the organisers the group, or the anarchist attendees?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> It's not like we're going to have mind readers at the door is it.



i'm sure you would, if you could.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Who is 'the group' though? Are the organisers the group, or the anarchist attendees?



Those enforcing the rules from the top down it seems.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Who is 'the group' though? Are the organisers the group, or the anarchist attendees?


i worry you may be overthinking this. no one's mentioned organisers. i am thinking, as i imagine LynnDoyleCooper is thinking, of discrete organisations acting within their own purview. as ldc introduced the matter being discussed it might be better if you raised it with them.


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## smokedout (Aug 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> For sure, but what you're doing is what loads of people do which is mix up GC people outside (and who are hostile to) the anarchist scene with GC people within the anarchist scene, of which there are quite a significant number, but who are finding themselves told that their positions on this subject are not welcome in movements and groups they've been involved with for decades in some cases, despite the fact that their views are not contrary to also being anti-State or anti-capitalist.



It seems to me in some cases they've mixed themselves up, and thats part of the problem.  What is being argued here?  That people who hold GC views be admitted, which they will be presumably, as long as they are not openly transphobic on the day, or that GC  groups should have a political presence?  And if the latter who?  And who gets to walk through the door with them?


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i worry you may be overthinking this. no one's mentioned organisers. i am thinking, as i imagine LynnDoyleCooper is thinking, of discrete organisations acting within their own purview. as ldc introduced the matter being discussed it might be better if you raised it with them.



It's obvious from the context what I was getting at.  But I'll make it clearer.  Do you think the organisers of the bookfair have a right to exclude other anarchists with whom they disagree (where the point of disagreement isn't one on which the is a buried consensus amongst anarchists)?


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

smokedout said:


> It seems to me in some cases they've mixed themselves up, and thats part of the problem.  What is being argued here?  That people who hold GC views be admitted, which they will be presumably, as long as they are not openly transphobic on the day, or that GC  groups should have a political presence?  And if the latter who?  And who gets to walk through the door with them?



That gender critical anarchists are allowed a political presence (so long as they don't threaten or abuse trans people, obviously).


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't see why long involvement should protect people from being called out when their views fall short of what the group feels are relevant core beliefs.



Do you consider that supporting the right of women to organise their resistance to patriarchy based upon the material reality of their own biology offends any relevant core beliefs of anarchism?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> It's obvious from the context what I was getting at.  But I'll make it clearer.  Do you think the organisers of the bookfair have a right to exclude other anarchists with whom they disagree (where the point of disagreement isn't one on which the is a buried consensus amongst anarchists)?


i think it's obvious that ldc and i weren't talking about the bookfair but the right of anarchist organisations to organise themselves and ask people involved - even those of long standing - to depart if their views are thought objectionable. i don't see how you're connecting what we were talking about to what you want to talk about. it's entirely dishonest to start asking me about a term another poster has introduced.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 23, 2019)

The thread is about the book fair though, and not anarchist orgs.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Do you consider that supporting the right of women to organise their resistance to patriarchy based upon the material reality of their own biology offends any relevant core beliefs of anarchism?


i fail to see the connection of the question to the comment you quote


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The thread is about the book fair though, and not anarchist orgs.


yes. but LynnDoyleCooper raised an issue about people  being told they were no longer welcome in groups or movements in which they had been active for some time, so we were on something of a small sidetrack.


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but LynnDoyleCooper raised an issue about people  being told they were no longer welcome in groups or movements in which they had been active for some time, so we were on something of a small sidetrack.



Clearly, that's applicable to attendees of the bookfair being excluded, now, by the new organisers. I think you're ducking the question.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Clearly, that's applicable to attendees of the bookfair being excluded, now, by the new organisers. I think you're ducking the question.


now: 23 august 2019

bookfair: sometime in october 2020

no one can be an attendee today of an event which is anticipated to occur more than a year from now


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> now: 23 august 2019
> 
> bookfair: sometime in october 2020
> 
> no one can be an attendee today of an event which is anticipated to occur more than a year from now



No, but a decision to exclude them can be made now. This is desperate.


----------



## andysays (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> No, but a decision to exclude them can be made now. This is desperate.


A decision to exclude whoever could be made now, but there is also, presumably, an opportunity to discuss the issue, including the basis on which people and groups are to be excluded, because the one thing that should be obvious to everyone is there is little or no agreement or consensus on this issue


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 23, 2019)

This is actually worse than the microscopic dissection of possible interpretations of the word “premeditated”.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> No, but a decision to exclude them can be made now. This is desperate.


i am quite happy for the bookfair organisers to make any decision they wish to to ensure the event is a success. if they decide that certain groups or individuals who might attend would do so to disrupt the event, and determine they should be barred, so be it. however, any such decision is certain to rely greatly on the feelings of the visitors on the day, and so i'd advise them to use their authority to do so sparingly, if at all.


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i am quite happy for the bookfair organisers to make any decision they wish to to ensure the event is a success. if they decide that certain groups or individuals who might attend would do so to disrupt the event, and determine they should be barred, so be it. however, any such decision is certain to rely greatly on the feelings of the visitors on the day, and so i'd advise them to use their authority to do so sparingly, if at all.



There. Wasn't that hard, was it?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> There. Wasn't that hard, was it?


now it's your turn


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> now it's your turn


For what?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> For what?


for you to do what you most hate, express an actual opinion on the question you raised.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> This isn't how it happened at all, there were no leaflets.
> 
> Helen and friend went in, pretty much went to a table after a quick browse and sat down.
> The organisers spoke with the venue and the venue decided to eject summarily as HS had made her position on trans people quite clear since prior events.
> ...



Source: Your own eyes, and your pre-established prejudices.



> They also had a anti transphobia policy and aside from that incident it was a pretty good day.
> 
> The fascist/Transphobe parrallels are unfortunatly quite strong, not just in the intensity and furiousity in which some of them act but for some transphobic people and groups it is a full on connection, politically and economically. Remember this isn't a "we don't like HS policy" it's a policy against transphobes. Many of whom have strong ties to right wing Christian movements fromt he states and who share fascist ideologies / Free Tommy shit. Some of the people that get lumped into "feminists concerned about womens spaces" are full on out right bigots and even in that realm many women have noticed the extremly dodgy shit their peers are saying.



So, Posie Parker and - quite literally - a couple of other gender-critical feminists have links to the Christian right, and that means everyone who shares that philosophy is collectively guilty of the crimes of a few, and you don't see parallels between your own behaviour and that of fascists? FFS!



> I mean I don't know if any of you kept up with things at the time but after 2017, the transphobes not only called the police but they gloated about wrecking the bookfair.
> 
> They arn't comrades.
> That others such as Helen ended up in their camp is really dissapointing and a lot of people were really hurt by that and subsent slides into transphobia to the point where upon our announcing, the day after she shared posie's meme that amounts to "trans women are men" and that shit.. that shit aint cool.


Genetically, trans women ARE men, a fact that needs to be marked with regard to future medical treatment, medication dosage, post-middle age health checks etc. Forgetting that isn't cool, and neither is traducing someone who's done more for the people than you'll ever achieve. 



> An Anti-Transphobia policy (or any anti bigotry position) is not about specific people, it's deeply problematic to reduce it to that. We are all quite differant. HS isn't Posie Parker or Graham Lineham, HS also isn't Steve from Slough who "just doesn't get the trans thing". We can't write a policy for everyone and their cat, so we have broad sweeps. I don't know if Luke sharing the "Stronger borders" leaflet is in the EDL but he's going to get ejected anyways.



The fact that you're blind to the parallels of your "broad sweeps" with authoritarian catch-all rule-making and the fact of hierarchism in your behaviour, makes you little different from "Luke".



> Anarchism is about sharing ideas and winning people over yes, and there will be talks and workshops no doubt for that very purpose, but if your political starting point is one entrenched in bigotry or you come to protest trasn rights or share transphobic leaflets you can fuck off.



Anarchism is about coming together as equals, talking out differences and reaching a consensus, not about pointing fingers and shrieking "you're banned" at anyone who thinks slightly differently - and seemingly, more rationally - than you. If you think that what you're doing is anarchism, then I strongly suggest you therapeutically twat yourself in the head with a lump hammer.



> This policy seems pretty clear and you know what, there is SO MUCH MORE interesting stuff about Anarchist Bookfairs than having a shitty disengenous discussion about the nuance of a broad policy.
> 
> Truly, If any of you happen to be transphobic, just stay at home or sort out another event or whatever. This is a space that will be welcoming to the trans community. It will also be a space where we protect other vunerable members of the Anarcho scene by not allowing bigots of any fashion to occupy and disrupt the space.
> 
> ...



Bunch of hierarchists imposing their views on others. 
You're shit, and you know you are, hence the semi-incoherent, repetitive self-justification for being cunt. 



> Out of interest.
> 
> Can anyone name an distinctly Anarchist organisation/network that does not believe transphobia to be counter to Anarchism? I'm aware of a few individulists who are anti-trans but not any one that would want a stall. Just curious really.



"Anarchist organisation".


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Anyone who's familiar with even the basics of anarchist theory knows prejudice is not as simple as 'hating X'.
> The people that I consider comrades (and yes I DO still consider them comrades) are opposed to the physical/verbal abuse of transpeople, want equality for transpeople but they disagree with others about what the equality actually means in practice. They have some concerns and the GR act, they believe that cis/natal-women sometimes have the right to organise in cis/natal-women only spaces, they sometimes have issues with transwomen appearing on all women shortlists. Now you might agree or disagree with those positions but they are clearly (a) more complex than simply 'hating transpeople' and (b) not remotely equivalent to fascism.
> 
> Frankly I don't for a minute believe you are not aware of this. You know full well that the people that you've blocked on twitter/facebook are not calling for transphobia to be acceptable, rather what they see as transphobia is different to what you see as transphobia. We all all know that there are gray-zones where there will be differences of opinion over whether something is prejudiced or not. No one doubts abusing someone as a kike Is anti-semitic but clearly opinions differ as to whether BDS or being opposed to a Jewish state are anti-semitic. The pretence that having an anti-transphobia policy is a problem is totally disingenuous, you know that is not what people are taking issue with.



Said much better than I could have.

Conflation of philosophical differences, with hatred or phobia, has meant years in which even a debate on terminology hasn't been able to take place.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> i'm sure you would, if you could.



"Eject that one. They had a non-vegetarian breakfast".
"That one too. They think Furries should be liquidated".


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> That gender critical anarchists are allowed a political presence (so long as they don't threaten or abuse trans people, obviously).



It would be argued that their very presence was threatening/abusive. There's always "reasons" to exclude people who you can't/won't argue against in a rational manner.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think it's obvious that ldc and i weren't talking about the bookfair but the right of anarchist organisations to organise themselves and ask people involved - even those of long standing - to depart if their views are thought objectionable. i don't see how you're connecting what we were talking about to what you want to talk about. it's entirely dishonest to start asking me about a term another poster has introduced.



How are "objectionable" views categorised as such, and who produces the list of objectionable views. It's generally NOT categorised or produced by consensus, but by fiat.
Now, to me fiat isn't exactly anarchist, but maybe I'm old-fashioned.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> How are "objectionable" views categorised as such, and who produces the list of objectionable views. It's generally NOT categorised or produced by consensus, but by fiat.
> Now, to me fiat isn't exactly anarchist, but maybe I'm old-fashioned.


you'd have to ask each group how they do that, i'm not standing in the way of anarchist organisations to determine how they act internally.


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## smokedout (Aug 23, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> Source: Your own eyes, and your pre-established prejudices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd be more interested personally in hearing the views of gender critical women who are anachists then all this bollocks from the gender critical logic brain men again.


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> for you to do what you most hate, express an actual opinion on the question you raised.



See post #315.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> See post #315.


that wasn't so hard, was it? surprised it took you 20 minutes tho.


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I'd be more interested personally in hearing the views of gender critical women who are anachists then all this bollocks from the gender critical logic brain men again.



Yeah, because women's brains don't do logic, eh?!  FFS.


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> that wasn't so hard, was it? surprised it took you 20 minutes tho.



Not hard at all. I'd been frank about my position from the outset.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Not hard at all. I'd been frank about my position from the outset.


so often you like to gather all possible facts before venturing an opinion however timid


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> that's unusual for you



I'm embarrassed for you that you have to revert to this playground stuff.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> I'm embarrassed for you that you have to revert to this playground stuff.


i only had to revert to your 354 for my cue. but obvs it's not playground stuff when you do it...


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i only had to revert to your 354 for my cue. but obvs it's not playground stuff when you do it...


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


>


out of curiosity when was the last time you attended an anarchist bookfair in london or elsewhere?


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> out of curiosity when was the last time you attended an anarchist bookfair in london or elsewhere?



Probably five years ago. Not that it impacts on the content if anything I've argued.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Probably five years ago. Not that it impacts on the content if anything I've argued.


bearing in mind your 315 with the let people argue it out line, how would you, imagining yourself as a bookfair organiser, have resolved the issues of 2017 and what do you think the bookfair organisers should do in advance of october next year to minimise the possibility of disruption?


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> bearing in mind your 315 with the let people argue it out line, how would you, imagining yourself as a bookfair organiser, have resolved the issues of 2017 and what do you think the bookfair organisers should do in advance of october next year to minimise the possibility of disruption?



Off the top of my head, I suppose:

Making it clear that all anarchists, including trans comrades, are welcome and valued.
A clear statement of the principle that the only views that anarchists will be prevented from expressing are those about which there is a very clear consensus amongst anarchists to be incompatible with anarchism.
A warning to prospective attendees that this will mean people from both sides being exposed to ideas they might not like, and that it's not reasonable for anyone to expect the organisers to prevent that.  And an explanation of why i.e. the importance of anarchists bring able to freely exchange views, and enter discussions. 
That name calling, intimidation or abuse won't be tolerated (from either camp).
An appeal to people to confine discussions to the relevant fora, so this issue doesn't dominate every aspect of the event (that opinions aren't forbidden doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to be aired in any way at any time e.g. shouting across the floor).
An appeal for discussions to be held in as comradely manner as possible, emphasising that, notwithstanding some significant differences, there's more that anarchists have in common.
An explanation that failure to engage respectfully is likely to mean the bookfair can't continue.
A reiteration that the bookfair is for anarchists, and that any disruption that threatens its viability by those whose views are clearly at odds with anarchists will likely result in their ejection.

Would probably refine that a bit with more time to think. And would take on board others' comments, of course.

What about you?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> Off the top of my head, I suppose:
> 
> Making it clear that all anarchists, including trans comrades, are welcome and valued.
> A clear statement of the principle that the only views that anarchists will be prevented from expressing are those about which there is a very clear consensus amongst anarchists to be incompatible with anarchism.
> ...


apart from what you've written,

- that people welcome to leaflet outside the event, but in the interests of circulation and clearing up please no leafleting among the stalls - people welcome to leave free material of all sorts on the tables for this purpose, or to distribute it to interested people from stalls or in meetings.

- that while the bookfair organisers are happy to resolve disputes which fall within the actual organisation of the day, disputes between people or groups which have arisen outside the bookfair should be kept outside the bookfair: while not a safe space (exposure to ideas you might find objectionable for example) it is not a battleground.

- the formation of an arbitration panel (membership to be determined, perhaps a couple of people from national groups) to defuse arguments which arise on the day but aren't related to the administration of the bookfair


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## Athos (Aug 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> apart from what you've written,
> 
> - that people welcome to leaflet outside the event, but in the interests of circulation and clearing up please no leafleting among the stalls - people welcome to leave free material of all sorts on the tables for this purpose, or to distribute it to interested people from stalls or in meetings.
> 
> ...



They all seem sensible.

Maybe we should organise it Pickman's model.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> They all seem sensible.


they do



> Maybe we should organise it Pickman's model.


if you want a job done properly...


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## andysays (Aug 23, 2019)

Athos said:


> They all seem sensible...


Yeah, they do.

I'd be interested in hearing Rhyddical's response to those points, should they wish to make one


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## Rhyddical (Aug 23, 2019)

Forgive me, but that is a lot of posting lol so I'm going to try and reply in short form (apologies)... did say I wasn't going to talk about it but heck there is some need for response... truly tho, this is the last I'm going to talk about our policy of transphobes and I'd love if y'all wanted to talk about the other DUH DUH DUH problems we face or any of the AWESOME shit we'll be hosting.

Redsquirrel
- The only people banned from social media were people who shared overtly transphobic stuff and those who dogpilled onto a massive troll campaign. I suspect some more moderate people got lumped into that, which is unfortunately but if you look, massive efforts were made the engage in conversation and debate issues with several expansive threads taking off. We're happy to talk and debate with those who do not spew bigotry. It's sad that the moderate/concerned camp is so deeply embedded with the bigots but thats how the politics of hate works, thats why Steve whose worried about the borders ends up full on right wing, coz he's mates with Gaz who he used to think was a little extreme.





Athos
Trans women are women who were born with various bit of male biology. “women” is a social construction to explain our social which has a heavy weight to the binary and trans women should be given equal esteem, rights and acknowledgements as women. Fuck giving women equal esteem, rights and acknowledgement as men was/is hard enough for us, trans women ( and trans men) face a additional layer of prejudice and inequality due to factors of their identity.

My rhetoric is born of people spewing utter bile at us, including from people I'd otherwise consider Anarchists. I don't mean it to sow division with people willing to talk. However look at the thread, look at some of the bullshittery in it, it isn't isolated.

My personal and Bookfairs 2020 definition of “transphobia” is deferred to what trans comrades see as transphobia. This isn't in the hyperbolic “you used the wrong pronoun by accident, now you are excommunicated” manner that detractors might like to present but on the “I'm sharing media denouncing trans women as rapists” which is in reality more the kind of shit that people hand out (yes including at 2017 Bookfair, there was a bit on the leaflet for it).

End of the day were not after a dictionary definition and a bit of paperwork to relay on but lived experience and the position of those on the sharp side of the oppression.

For groups who share that stuff like to pretend they are moderates by also sharing more mild mannered stuff, to those uninvolved that seems reasonable, to those who deal with it regularly it's deeply problematic. It's exactly the same shit Britain First used to do, sharing “not racist” media so people couldn't call them racist and heck it's what Tommy Bobinson does now.

Transphobes sharing “not transphobic” stuff to escape from the pile they've posted or said elsewhere is not something we'll give platform or space too.





Lynn
I am 100% I would have seen leaflets however happy to admit I might have missed something, If there were leaflets I'm sure someone posted them online, I've had a look and was unable find some... Please share if you know where they are hosted?

I suspect this was more of a “few things were handed out” rather than a “leafleting”.
They were kicked out for being part of Helen's sit in which the venue decided not to entertain.





Pickman's Model/ Smoked out/ many others

No doubt many people with GC views will come in, respect the space and enjoy the Anarchism. I suspect a few Tankies, Assad lovers, Stalinists etc will come along too. It's the nature of the beast really. Heck sometimes that is a good thing as via osmosis and the odd convo people learn and develop their thinking.

There seems to be this thinking that we're a fucking border agency and going tobe checking peoples politics at the door, we ain't. Don't come in with the intent to cause a ruck or share bigotry and you'll probably be aight. Unless you're well known for doing so... sadly there are plenty of people who can think of nothing better for a Saturday than going to the Anarchist bookfair and being a dick for a variety of reasons.

Re; Stalls and policing Anarchists. We won't be giving a stall to the National Anarchist Movement either for the same reasons as Women's Place won't have a stall. There will however be a wild array of Feminist stuff as the politics of the oppressed are a vital aspect to the revolutionary movement ~(obviously)...

Again, tho we might not provide a platform, nothing at all is stopping GC Anarchists from holding an event of the fringe and sharing their ideas in an event of their own making especially one which “isn't transphobic” or whatnot. We all have free association and the ability to hold assembly, I personally think we should do so with respect and understanding how our actions might harm others (including those with sensory issues, coz fuck folks, hostility in the safer space can fuck off regardless of it's genesis)


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## Rhyddical (Aug 23, 2019)

ViolentPanda
Thank you for your addition.



Smocked out
I think there are many women who are GC Anarchists and the ones I know respect the spaces they are in, understand that some GC people are hostile and venomous, disassociate openly and overtly from that discuss their concerns in a positive and comradely way, understanding the emotive nature of the issue and you know generally being right on Anarchists.

They wouldn't for a moment think about storming into a safer space to wave a banner and ruin everyone's day. They've find a suitable venue and talk, discuss and develop our collective thinking. In amongst things like the GRA discussion we are skipping over rather basic anarchistic concerns about how government legislations by the nature can be used to oppress and sow dischord and more philosophical ones about the need for such act at all. There is nuanced discussion needed regarding safer spaces for women who have survived assault and such sure.

Those are vital discussions.
I have them all the time, both as a social media admin and in the flesh down the pub.

These are contextual and defined by the space.

It's the same reasons we don't talk about male suicide figures during a conversation of prejudice women face. It's a vital issue sure but why the fuck derail the conversation like that? We quite rightly out people like that as MRA's and Manarchists and tell them to fuck off. Respect the space innit.





Andysays



re; Pickman's model...




Making it clear that all anarchists, including trans comrades, are welcome and valued.


A clear statement of the principle that the only views that anarchists will be prevented from expressing are those about which there is a very clear consensus amongst anarchists to be incompatible with anarchism.


A warning to prospective attendees that this will mean people from both sides being exposed to ideas they might not like, and that it's not reasonable for anyone to expect the organisers to prevent that. And an explanation of why i.e. the importance of anarchists bring able to freely exchange views, and enter discussions.


That name calling, intimidation or abuse won't be tolerated (from either camp).


An appeal to people to confine discussions to the relevant fora, so this issue doesn't dominate every aspect of the event (that opinions aren't forbidden doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to be aired in any way at any time e.g. shouting across the floor).


An appeal for discussions to be held in as comradely manner as possible, emphasising that, notwithstanding some significant differences, there's more that anarchists have in common.


An explanation that failure to engage respectfully is likely to mean the bookfair can't continue.


A reiteration that the bookfair is for anarchists, and that any disruption that threatens its viability by those whose views are clearly at odds with anarchists will likely result in their ejection.


That people welcome to leaflet outside the event, but in the interests of circulation and clearing up please no leafleting among the stalls - people welcome to leave free material of all sorts on the tables for this purpose, or to distribute it to interested people from stalls or in meetings.


That while the bookfair organisers are happy to resolve disputes which fall within the actual organisation of the day, disputes between people or groups which have arisen outside the bookfair should be kept outside the bookfair: while not a safe space (exposure to ideas you might find objectionable for example) it is not a battleground.


The formation of an arbitration panel (membership to be determined, perhaps a couple of people from national groups) to defuse arguments which arise on the day but aren't related to the administration of the bookfair



Tho I understand we may disagree of whether Transphobia (with it's sliding scale) is incompatible with Anarchism, but yeah this all of the above are quite reasonable as general policies for managing any of a number of conflicts. The majority of these we already have written in a public manner (ie, expect a barny, be comrades, no abuse) and some in a private manner (discussion on separate space for arguments, arbiters, no opposition to fringe/external events etc)


Tho a “safer space” isn't defined by the lack of opinions one finds objectionable, but rather that it is a space without oppressive politics / hostile attitudes being forced on people. This idea that a “safe space” is for the snowflakes who can't take a barny or get offended etc etc is some 4chan / macho shit we shouldn't repeat here like that was actually what the words meant. Our “safer space” policy isn't to save peoples feelings but to counter very real and direct threats to the personal and communal safety of attendees and stalls.

TBh I might share (next to) as is at the next meeting. Sort of double down on somethings already cooking.




Look, end rant here...
Transphobia kills people.
Whether full TERF or just moderately bigoted, The encouragement of the hostile environment towards trans women in particular, leads to a massive mental health crisis, the normalising of physical assaults and work place prejudic. The tolerance we have for it in British Anarchism is fucking appalling and our comrades world wide really have no clue about why we've allowed people with social capital to poison the well and cause so much dischord.

Transphobia has no space in our movement, it's not to be debated, tolerated or given an ear. Transphobes can fuck right off.

If you think someones space and place in our society is dictated based on whats in their underwear either now or at birth, you are part of the problem.

There are forty year old men giving birth and single moms that had a penis for most of their lives.

Deal with it.

Commentary that “we're authoritarian” because we'll keep out bigots smacks of nazi trash saying the really Fascists are those protesting them. The wilful ignorance of how undermining an entire community with leaflets and words can lead to violence, murder, suicide and institutional prejudice is fucking bullshit and we are all a lot smarter than that.

If you want to be an anarchist prig and say “hey don't ban people yo” then set up your own Anarchist bookfair, invite a bunch of hate filled trash to hold stalls and have blood and honour play the after party.



Respect the Anarchist notion of free association and don't come. See that is what Anarchists who disagree with X or Y policy would do, they'd either set their own shit up or not come.

Heck such an event – even with out hyperbolic stuff – one with Women's Place and co, Trots, Eco-Fash, Stalinists, China No#1 types and Phalangists would no doubt be well attended and a hotbed for discussion and barny.



That's great, sure ok... but that ain't Bookfair2020.



Just accept it and move on with your day x

p.s. It is not for the vunerable and oppressed to educate people on aspects of their oppression. There seems to be a weird attitude to some of this that is pretty much saying that Trans people should have to debate with transphobes over their very existence. psht, like jeez.

This is a transgender friendly space. If you are not transgender friendly, keep your mouth shut or don't come.

Heck It's not like bigots ever change their mind when you debate them anyways no matter how many valid points your present em.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 23, 2019)

Welcome to any further questions about Bookfair Stuff in general but I'm not getting dragged into disengenous tiffs about someones Transphobic beliefs, issues about individuals or the Transphobia policy and I'll either ignore or direct you back here. So if I ignore you and don't reply thats why x


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Welcome to any further questions about Bookfair Stuff in general but I'm not getting dragged into disengenous tiffs about someones Transphobic beliefs, issues about individuals or the Transphobia policy and I'll either ignore or direct you back here. So if I ignore you and don't reply thats why x


tbh it'll be good to have it back next year

we're all auld curmudgeons here, there's people on the thread who can never see a nit without picking it - good luck to you!


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## andysays (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ...


Thanks for your reply.

Look forward to hearing where and when the bookfair will be


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## smokedout (Aug 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> F
> Re; Stalls and policing Anarchists. We won't be giving a stall to the National Anarchist Movement either for the same reasons as Women's Place won't have a stall. There will however be a wild array of Feminist stuff as the politics of the oppressed are a vital aspect to the revolutionary movement ~(obviously)...



I think it's worth remembering since they have not had a voice in  the debate here that Anarcha feminism and Queer anarchism are both long standing and important parts of the anarchist movement in the uK, even if some of us might have concerns about the slide towards identity politics over class struggle.  Both these groups have had an organised presence at pretty much every bookfair I've been to as well as played a siginificant role in anarchist organising in the UK.  And both are trans inclusive, in fact that is pretty embedded within Queer politics.

GC feminism has not been part of the anarchist tradition here or anywhere else in the world.  Very very few GC feminists are anachists, and a lot of the ones that are  are not women, and the broader GC movement is openly hostile to those who identify as Queer.  And by hostile I mean claiming queer politics is a paedophile front.  The GC  movement has also proved to be openly hostile to anarchist feminists who have included trans people within their feminism.

In truth the GC movement on the scale it currently is has only existed for a couple of years and formed to challenge proposals that would have removed the role of the state in dictating legal gender identity.  The GC movement believe that either people should not have the right to change their legal gender identity or that they should have to apply to a state panel.  The GC movement opposed switching the protected characteristic in the EA to gender identity meaning non binary and gender non conforming people can legally be denied jobs, housing and services.  Many in the GC movement want to see more laws over who gets to use which toilet etc, presumably policed by some kind of gender cops.  The GC movement believes that an elite intellectual group of feminists have the right to dictate to workers in womens refuges (and sex workers although thats a bit diggression) how they should do their jobs.  And many in the GC movement, including moderates, believe that trans inclusion is such a threat, the biggest threat to woman in 100 years according to Womens Place, that it is legitimate to form an allegiance with Tories, capitalists, Evangelicals and even in some cases racists and Fascists against trans rights.  None of this strikes me as ver6y anarchist.

And whilst individuals may have their own views, and some anarchists may have more thoughtful GC positions, some I'm sorry to say don't.  And as there is currently no formal or informal GC anarchist group then I find it hard to understand why it shoould even be under consideration that groups led by Trots and Tories should have a presence at the bookfair to appease a small number of individuals and against the consensus of the organisers and pretty much every established anarchist group in the UK.


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## Athos (Aug 24, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I think it's worth remembering since they have not had a voice in  the debate here that Anarcha feminism and Queer anarchism are both long standing and important parts of the anarchist movement in the uK, even if some of us might have concerns about the slide towards identity politics over class struggle.  Both these groups have had an organised presence at pretty much every bookfair I've been to as well as played a siginificant role in anarchist organising in the UK.  And both are trans inclusive, in fact that is pretty embedded within Queer politics.
> 
> GC feminism has not been part of the anarchist tradition here or anywhere else in the world.  Very very few GC feminists are anachists, and a lot of the ones that are  are not women, and the broader GC movement is openly hostile to those who identify as Queer.  And by hostile I mean claiming queer politics is a paedophile front.  The GC  movement has also proved to be openly hostile to anarchist feminists who have included trans people within their feminism.
> 
> ...



Nobody is arguing that Tories or trots be admitted, or that all GC views are compatible with anarchism. Rather that those anarchists with the "more thoughtful GC positions" aren't excluded. And that's a bigger number than you imply; the consensus you claim is illusory.


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## Athos (Aug 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Trans women are women who were born with various bit of male biology. “women” is a social construction to explain our social which has a heavy weight to the binary...



I understand that that's your opinion. Other anarchists disagree for perfectly politically sound reasons, and without being transphobes.  My only issue is with organisers of an anarchist event insisting that other anarchists fall into line.

But I suspect we'd just go round and round, so I don't expect a reply. And, as I said before, notwithstanding that I don't agree with all the organisers decisions, I'm glad someone's taken it on. I hope it goes well, and I may even attend.


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## LDC (Aug 24, 2019)

Athos said:


> I understand that that's your opinion.



An opinion flying in the face of facts. And asks the question that what is it that makes someone female/male if it's not biology? Some kind of feeling?


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## LDC (Aug 24, 2019)

But people are right, there's much more important things to think and talk about, and I hope the Bookfair will be a chance to do that.

I appreciate the attempts at (mostly) reasonable discussion we're having here, but in the last couple of years I've seen good comrades and friends denounced as Nazis, bullied out of demonstrations and events, told they're the enemy, and threatened and sometimes attacked for not agreeing with 'the trans position' by people in the anarchist movement and wider scene, so I am fucking angry and really disillusioned that it's come to this state of affairs, which is worse by far than anything else I've seen.

Watching a young tall and physically imposing 20 something who looked male scream 'you ugly TERF cunt' into the face of a much older and smaller and visibly scared female at the 2017 Bookfair while being supported by other 'anarchists' was quite possibly the low point of many years of this stuff, so fuck the anarchist movement if that's what it's become.


----------



## chilango (Aug 24, 2019)

The vitriol in this divide is really alienating to those of us on the periphery of the movement. It certainly is a barrier to making the substantial effort it would take to get involved in the scene. Why bother when you see supposed allies test each other like this?

I hope to go along to the Bookfair and wish it's organizers well.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 24, 2019)

If it's alienating to those on the periphery, it must be beyond perplexing to anyone not in any kind of left sphere showing an interest. No doubt they would be hastily shown the door anyway if an incorrect opinion is expressed.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2019)

Tbh the only way this is going to end within @ circles at any rate is if there's a recognition by both your 'gc' lot and trans people that engagement, communication and honest debate is better than confrontation. Any road toward an accommodation really not helped by people adopting one side or the other and not seeing or refusing to see the shortcomings of both trans activists and 'terfs' behaviour, for example the decision to leaflet the last bf with an entirely unanarchist but extremely provocative leaflet, and the disgraceful theft and destruction of the book fair banner. 

If the state had wondered how to introduce a debate which appeared arcane to many onlookers but which would viciously divide revolutionaries they couldn't have lighted on a better one than this, which has exposed the utter inability of anarchists and related troublemakers to bring people together in this case and which has fractured longstanding friendships, relationships and alliances.


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## LDC (Aug 24, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If it's alienating to those on the periphery, it must be beyond perplexing to anyone not in any kind of left sphere showing an interest. No doubt they would be hastily shown the door anyway if an incorrect opinion is expressed.



What brings up all sorts of questions for me is that the real hatred and vitriol in this debate seems to be directed almost exclusively by trans-women towards women. I have often expressed the same opinions as female friends of mine about this and I seem to be able to have discussions about it whereas the women I know doing the same are branded as transphobes and Nazi's.

Anyway, I'm out on the subject, let's hope it all gets subsumed into the more important areas we share and can fight together on.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What brings up all sorts of questions for me is that the real hatred and vitriol in this debate seems to be directed almost exclusively by trans-women towards women. I have often expressed the same opinions as female friends of mine about this and I seem to be able to have discussions about it whereas the women I know doing the same are branded as transphobes and Nazi's.



And cis male trans allies having a pop at women whilst convinced they are right on progressives in their own heads.


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## smokedout (Aug 24, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And cis male trans allies having a pop at women whilst convinced they are right on progressives in their own heads.



The obssessively gender critical cis men who have dominated the trans debate on here shows how much that cuts both ways.

But is this helpful, on this thread?  Maybe better to try keep things strictly bookfair related and if people really feel the need to discuss which side is the worstest then bump the other thread?


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## belboid (Aug 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What brings up all sorts of questions for me is that the real hatred and vitriol in this debate seems to be directed almost exclusively by trans-women towards women.


That’s funny, the real hatred I’ve come across is almost exclusively aimed at trans-women by cis women.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 24, 2019)

smokedout said:


> The obssessively gender critical cis men who have dominated the trans debate on here shows how much that cuts both ways.
> 
> But is this helpful, on this thread?  Maybe better to try keep things strictly bookfair related and if people really feel the need to discuss which side is the worstest then bump the other thread?



I'm not referring to here. But we have the episode at Hyde park, the episode with Helen Steel plus other things I've witnessed where cg women are targeted offline. And some of the people involved in those most certainly will be attending the book fair. But yeah, probably unhelpful to kick that debate off in full again here.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I'd be more interested personally in hearing the views of gender critical women who are anachists then all this bollocks from the gender critical logic brain men again.



No you wouldn't, you'd shovel the same shit at them, that you shovel at anyone who disagrees with you.


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## Serge Forward (Aug 24, 2019)

Meanwhile, the Anarchist Communist Group sez:


> We in the ACG oppose transphobia. In our aims and principles we stress the importance of ending all oppressions as well as an end to capitalism and the State.
> 
> In an anarchist communist society there will continue to be differences between people, a flourishing of diversity as people are freed from the indoctrination and limitations of this society. However, these differences will not mean new hierarchies or inequalities. We fight today against all oppressions and inequality both because of the hardship and suffering it causes and because we need to unite as a class if we are to be effective in our struggles.
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Look, end rant here...
> Transphobia kills people.
> Whether full TERF or just moderately bigoted, The encouragement of the hostile environment towards trans women in particular, leads to a massive mental health crisis, the normalising of physical assaults and work place prejudic. The tolerance we have for it in British Anarchism is fucking appalling and our comrades world wide really have no clue about why we've allowed people with social capital to poison the well and cause so much dischord.
> 
> Transphobia has no space in our movement, it's not to be debated, tolerated or given an ear. Transphobes can fuck right off.



And right there is where you lose credibility - "it's not to be debated". Anarchism is about a TRUE form of democracy. It's not about mug cunts telling people what they can or can't talk about.




> Commentary that “we're authoritarian” because we'll keep out bigots smacks of nazi trash saying the really Fascists are those protesting them. The wilful ignorance of how undermining an entire community with leaflets and words can lead to violence, murder, suicide and institutional prejudice is fucking bullshit and we are all a lot smarter than that.



Nice try, but turnaround only works if you have a valid point. You don't, and the fact that you have to insinuate Nazism on the part of anyone who calls you out, shows that you have no argument, just abuse. 
Yes, words can lead to violence, not just for the trans community, but for everyone. Try remembering that before you make insinuations about people's politics. 



> Heck such an event – even with out hyperbolic stuff – one with Women's Place and co, Trots, Eco-Fash, Stalinists, China No#1 types and Phalangists would no doubt be well attended and a hotbed for discussion and barny.



More attempts at guilt by association.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Meanwhile, the Anarchist Communist Group sez:



Sounds sound to me.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> And right there is where you lose credibility - "it's not to be debated". Anarchism is about a TRUE form of democracy. It's not about mug cunts telling people what they can or can't talk about.


I think you've misunderstood, that Rhyddical doesn't mean it can't be talked about but just as anarchists don't give fascism credibility by debating with fascists, even tho we talk about fascism a lot, that while we talk about transphobia he doesn't think we should debate with transphobes. I use the example of fascism to illuminate what I take to be his meaning and not to equate transphobes and fascists. I don't entirely agree with him, because so much of this debate is within the anarchist movement and to resolve this a great deal of talking to people one may disagree with will need to be done


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you've misunderstood, that Rhyddical doesn't mean it can't be talked about but just as anarchists don't give fascism credibility by debating with fascists, even tho we talk about fascism a lot, that while we talk about transphobia he doesn't think we should debate with transphobes. I use the example of fascism to illuminate what I take to be his meaning and not to equate transphobes and fascists. I don't entirely agree with him, because so much of this debate is within the anarchist movement and to resolve this a great deal of talking to people one may disagree with will need to be done



What is a transphobe, though? From all that Rhyddical has written, it seems that their definition is "any cunt who disagrees with me".


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## sunnysidedown (Aug 24, 2019)

Are anarcho-menstrualists allowed in?


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you've misunderstood, that Rhyddical doesn't mean it can't be talked about but just as anarchists don't give fascism credibility by debating with fascists, even tho we talk about fascism a lot, that while we talk about transphobia he doesn't think we should debate with transphobes. I use the example of fascism to illuminate what I take to be his meaning and not to equate transphobes and fascists. I don't entirely agree with him, because so much of this debate is within the anarchist movement and to resolve this a great deal of talking to people one may disagree with will need to be done



On that note, someone who I don't always see eye to eye on in terms of the trans/terf issue but would still count as a comrade and friend posted this today:



> In a Postscript to the thoughts on anti-fascism today: There are factions of ‘antifa’ willing to identify as fascists, or at least rightists deserving physical opposition, anyone who does not sign up to specific positions on other issues. This has emerged notably in the current ‘debate’ on transphobia and the fierce argument between gender-critical feminists (labelled ‘TERFs by some) and an element of the trans rights movement and some allies. No platforming – physically preventing known fascists from speaking, debating, as well as gathering or meeting, a central plank of anti-fascism, is being extended to women who attempt to meet to discuss how the push to recognise ‘self-identification’ as the only necessary or acceptable definition of whether someone is the ‘gender’ they say they are. ‘TERFS’ are derided as nazis, bigots for whom the same treatment is needed. This process involves mainly targeting of feminists, often women who have been in the social movements we have built for many years, and has included blockading meetings, threats both online and in person, ostracism, exclusion. Anyone who suggests that there may be a discussion to be had as to how women’s rights and trans rights intersect and may in some cases collide, gets attacked – but its women who get the runt of the abuse. Some anti-fascist groups, taking a lead from the USA, where this process is several years further along, are openly lumping ‘terfs’ – ie feminists who disagree with some aspects of some transgender ideas – in with fascists. I think this is a mistake.
> 
> Many of us draw lines, if only in our heads – these people are on my side, these people are on the other side. The line changes over time for many of us. And depending on where you come from and where you place your politics, your sense of self, that line is going to be drawn in a different place. But if you want to come together to form social movements, either to oppose processes taking place or to fight for a positive change, those lines have to be re-thought. If I’m honest there are elements of the ideas of some gender critical feminists and of pro-trans rights activists that I fully agree with and some in both camps I find repulsive and nasty… but overwhelmingly I would view these movements as BOTH being part of a wider culture I would support. Where rights and interests meet and clash and mix within what I see as social movements with wider common goals is, I suggest, a point for discussion and debate, questioning and dialectic – not ostracism and no platforming.
> 
> In some ways this is a symptom of a wider syndrome, paralysingly epidemic at the moment – a closing down, a bunkering, into ideological fiefdoms, from which we can all take potshots at each other for not being in our corner on everything. Meanwhile the environment goes to shit, the exploiting classes gleefully suck more of our blood and rightwing movements are on the rise. People drawing lines in the sand might want to consider where the line between ‘them’ and ‘us’ really lies.



From here:
Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991


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## LDC (Aug 24, 2019)

belboid said:


> That’s funny, the real hatred I’ve come across is almost exclusively aimed at trans-women by cis women.



Yup, for sure some women have been to trans-women. But within the anarchist movement and slightly wider scene as that's what we're talking about here? Nope, only seen, heard, and read it one way, towards women from trans-women and men.


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## LDC (Aug 24, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> On that note, someone who I don't always see eye to eye on in terms of the trans/terf issue but would still count as a comrade and friend posted this today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not come across that blog before, brilliant, thanks.


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## butchersapron (Aug 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not come across that blog before, brilliant, thanks.


Wait till you see the other stuff they do!


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## redsquirrel (Aug 24, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> On that note, someone who I don't always see eye to eye on in terms of the trans/terf issue but would still count as a comrade and friend posted this today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Fozzie, it pretty much sums up my thoughts on this and why I really dislike this labelling of people as fascists.


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## smokedout (Aug 24, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> On that note, someone who I don't always see eye to eye on in terms of the trans/terf issue but would still count as a comrade and friend posted this today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the conclusion is spot on really, and that perhaps what needs to take place is an examination of how some of these problems and perceived clashes addressed within an anarchist framework.  I haven't seen anyone from either side attempt to address real life practical problems, such as what if a cis woman won't enter a refuge because she finds the presence of a perhaps newly transitioned trans woman threatening, or what happen to a trans woman who needs a refuge but can't access one because it is cis women only.  And as much as possible these debates should be informed by those working class people it affects, in this example refuge residents and workers, not lofty philosophy academics or angry Goldmiths kids.  Now it  may be that people going into that will find positions illegitimate, and that may even lead to a consensus that some positions are illegitimate but I think the pragmatic problems have to be discussed, amongst anarchists, in the spirit of mutual aid.

I do take issue with the first paragraph.  The meetings that have been protested are not just women discussing the impact of self ID.  They have been used by open transphobes in some cases, to push anti-trans narrative and conspiracy theories that I'm sorry but do place trans people at heightened risk of social violence.  Look at the video which starts the other thread.  Even Woman's Place, arguably the most moderate group have as one of their demands a strengthening of the Equalities Act in favour of cis women which in practice means a significant loss of rights for trans women.  Rights that many trans people consider vital to live in safety and with dignity.  How many other groups in society would just concede this without a fight?  Are trans people supposed to go okay, well you want to take away our rights, and you have people on platforms accusing us of being fetishists and paedophiles and rapists and you show slides of us and mock us to a guffawing audience, but thats fine, go GC feminism?  Whilst I don't think the way some protests have been conducted have been helpful, and I havent attended any, the idea that meetings in which an already marginalised group is attacked from all sides can and should be held without any protest seems naive at best to me.  And from a trans perspective, the fact these meetings are taking place at all, combined with the  fact they have such powerful friends on the right, is actually fucking frightening, a lot more frightening than some anonymous dick telling me to die in a fire on twitter.

I think there has to be aknowledgement that harm has been done on both sides, that a lot of this campaigning is not benign, and whilst the tactics may have been misguided it is understandable why some trans people and allies have chosen to resist it.  And perhaps both sides can try and draw a line in the sand and start looking at ways to move forward.  I am not optimistic that this will happen sadly though.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

We've no issue with these matters being discussed.
You'll see no Bookfair 2020 statement denouncing events which genuinely encourage developmental dialogue between these two aspects.

I personally would HIGHLY advise you to organise a conferance/bookfair/seminar that makes a genuine effort to build developmental dialogues.

Bookfair 2020 isn't it.

Some argue that we as an Anarchistic community need platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.

Bookfair 2020 isn't that either.

There was a time when queer rights,feminism and anti-colonialism were all negated because there wasn't a "clear consensus" within the Anarchist movement.

Those were shitty times and we shouldn't return to them because the moderate sock puppets of bigots wants a seat at the table.

Mind you I'd argue that there is a clear consensus that transphobia isn't welcome within Anarchism. Since now ACG have finally put out a statement against transphobia there isn't a single body of Anarchists who support,endorse or tolerate transphobia. (Least not one that isn't also on shitlists for other reasons)

So Anarchists that arn't savvy with trans rights, either respect the space, keep it to yourself or don't come and if you have the will, set up a seperate event to show the world that folk like me are totally wrong and build dialogues.. more love to you.

Glad thats sorted.

So, We've got a whole bunch of interesting things planned and in the works already and we've still got fourteen months to go.

What kind of things have you always wanted to see at Anarchist Bookfairs? What can we do to make it better for you, and help empower new comrades? Would love to hear your throughts.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 25, 2019)

Maybe it is just a language thing but I am in total agreement with the statements of the ACG and the kink Fozzie Bear gave while I have significant issues with the above post and statement on the bookfair website.

Despite in previous posts stating that that transphobia is a sliding scale you seem to continually divide people into boxes - the transphobes and the non-transphobes, the xenophobes and the non-xenophobes. I'm not interested in 





> platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.


(BTW what is a working class capitalist when they are at home?)

What I am interested in is best summed as


> but overwhelmingly I would view these movements as BOTH being part of a wider culture I would support. Where rights and interests meet and clash and mix within what I see as social movements with wider common goals is, I suggest, a point for discussion and debate, questioning and dialectic .


 which I see feeding into "an examination of how some of these problems and perceived clashes addressed within an anarchist framework", as outlined by smokedout above.

There are few ideological racists in the UK in 2019 but racism is still endemic and systemic in our society.
There is a strong majority of support for tighter immigration controls, something that would undoubtably have racist consequences, yet there was also strong majorities that were outraged and appalled by the treatment of those caught up in the windrush-scandal, despite that treatment being a consequence of the tighter immigration controls. So are those that support tighter immigration controls and are appalled by the windrush-scandal racists or non-racists? To me such a question is not just pointless it is an active hinderance to any action against racism.

None of the above means that those committed to prejudices should not be called out as racists/sexists/transphobes, but just as calling everyone who favours tighter immigration controls a racist is counterproductive so is calling anyone that _you_ see as not 'savvy with trans rights' a transphobe.


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2019)

_Some argue that we as an Anarchistic community need platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.
_
Yeah_?_


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2019)

Admin z at the controls I suspect. Drawing lines. Admining.


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Mind you I'd argue that there is a clear consensus that transphobia isn't welcome within Anarchism. Since now ACG have finally put out a statement against transphobia there isn't a single body of Anarchists who support,endorse or tolerate transphobia. (Least not one that isn't also on shitlists for other reasons)



Nobody is arguing that transphobia is acceptable.  The argument is whether or not your definition of transphobia is correct, and whether you're entitled to impose it on anarchists who disagree with you (and the consequences of that).


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## Serge Forward (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> there isn't a single body of Anarchists who support,endorse or tolerate transphobia. (Least not one that isn't also on shitlists for other reasons)


Shitlists


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## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Shitlists


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## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

_Shitlists _ie Even outside of this little bubble of conversation there are a whole bunch of people and groups with shite politics that none of use would touch with a barge pole.

Even if the "list" exists in our heads we all know there are people and groups that are a bit dodge to say the least.
_
"Working Class Capitalists"_ is a term I ran across the other day for those temporarily embarrassed millionares who support the tories or are ancap fucks who are just waiting to be rich but find themselves stuck with us lot right now lol 

Athos, what you don't seem to see is that people_ are_ arguing that transphobia is acceptable, it very much is a thing and often arguing against the very concept of being trans saying that it is all mental illness etc, n yheah thats from people who also call themselves Anarchist and/or Feminists.
Even on this thread. People have said transphobic trash and no one said "err, thats dodge as fuck" because they say "but I'm not transphobic... it's just the truth" or something with the next breath.

You are asking for honed down codified definitions of Transphobia but they don't exist. They don't exist, not because people arn't aware of the bigotry, but because we don't wish to provide loop holes and symantical hiding holes like the shite that Tommy (islam isn't a race) Robinson and Andy (I'm just a journo
) Ngo hide behind. So many of the transphobic crowd pretend not to be transphobic. Generally this means spewing bile in one place then putting on the public face elsewhere. This is seen time and time by the people paying attention.

The same reason Antifa know that X n Y are nasty nasty bastards evewn if they claim neautrality in public.

I'd have a whole lot more time personally for the "not transphobes" if calling out the hideous shite their peers are spewing but not a single time in all the massive trollfest that they kicked off for Bookfair 2020 has one said to another "woah now, thats a bit much" as transphobes quite hapilly call trans people fetishists, rapists, peadophiles  and destroyers of all things Lesbian. It's fucking bullshit so yeah we keep our definition of Transphobia broad and we'll take specific situations in context. Least to say , shouting out the Women (noun) trash, prewtending that you arn't aware how it undermines the equalioty of trans women and fosters bigotry and echoing Posie Parker is not savvy and won't be tolerated. This is what Helen Steel chose to share with out twitter and what saw her blocks.

If you are looking for a barometer of transphobia that crosses the line, it's that. 

But hey like I say, no doubt lots of people who want to attend to enjopy the talks and stalls will do the decent thing, respect the space and keep it too themselves.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _Some argue that we as an Anarchistic community need platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.
> _
> Yeah_?_



Yep. I've seen all of those arguing for in my time, usually with the notion that we need to be uniting the "working class" and we need to get over our differances.

Neutrality is the face of oppression is the side with the oppressor and when we say come on guys "let's all just chat it out" and we ask the vunerable to argue their very existance to people who spend their politics might on crushing them and removing their rights, persecuting them politically and personally we have to ask ourselves if treating the oppressive faction like their position is worth debating with a lot of scrutiny.

Generation Identity have lots of notions about why Europe should be white and how space for white people whould be respected. They are notably quite popular amongst young working class blokes... they claim not to be racist. They have statements about how they are not racist. I mean what's your definition of xenophobia anyways? There are a few Anarchistic groups (NAM / NA/ SR/ 100 Hands) that also claim not to be xenophobic but simply speaking "the truth", should we invite them? Do we quibble on our definitions there?  no, do we fuck and we respect anti fascist comrades when they say "oh these dickheads are dodge".


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2019)

I've never seen anyone argue any such thing 'in my time'. I think it's a fantasy.


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Athos, what you don't seem to see is that people_ are_ arguing that transphobia is acceptable, it very much is a thing and often arguing against the very concept of being trans saying that it is all mental illness etc, n yheah thats from people who also call themselves Anarchist and/or Feminists.
> Even on this thread.



Where on this thread has anyone who calls themself an anarchist and/or feminist argued that transphobia is acceptable (as opposed to expressed opinions that you consider transphobic but they don't)?  This is another fantasy.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

Somewhere in the early commentary there was something or other about "men who cut their dicks off", Women (noun) shit and stuff equating trans rights activists = pathetic liberals. I've not the time for 15 pages of finding qoutes that'll be dismissed or ignored, and tbh maybe I'm half reading or taking it out of context... IDK I have memory issues a lil.

Mid way and later stage here people are effectivley arguing that a degree of "transphobia" is ok, coz hey, it's not really transphobia right? I mean it's not really transphobic it's just stuff this person considers transphobic haha wut. Like serious think about that.
That tosh is literally said by dodge people everywhere, all the fucking time.

"It's not fascism mate, it's not my fault and can't accept other peoples opinions."

I'm not for a moment saying you are dodge, but please for a moment consider the weird way in which arguements like that are being used.

My definitions of whats transphobic come from the trans people being abused and bullied, I defer to the oppressed and this thread is chocka with dog whistles, hostility towords a policy that is there to make people safer from bigots and aggy coz ya mates one of these people the liberal/idpol/melts call a terf and shock horror, arn't nice too. I'm honestly not interested in telling people who suffer transphobic abuse what the definition of transphobia is, especially when thats generated from people, at the very least, who are willing to entertain those who would see the rights and stature of the trans community diminished.

FFS why am I getting dragged into back and forths on The Transphobia Policy yet again haha look, like it or lump it, it's what it is, I've restated it a dozen times. 
The thread is about Bookfair not the nuances of Transphobia / Trans Rights, I beliueve someone already linked the thread for that elsewhere on U75.

If folk don't care for it thats fine, don't come or just respect the space innit. It's not hard.
If the people we're talking about genuinely wanted progressive dialogue they would respect that and find suitable venues for discussion instead of picketing Pride marches like the fucking Westboro baptists or sharing leaflets called trans people rapists n shit. Honestly if even an ounce of respect was afforded the trans community and respect for trans friendly spaces was given then the conversation would be much more comradely and no one would be getting themselves into a twist. Sad to say that ain't the world we live in and here we are wasting reams of text on something thats quite simple.

No bigotry will be tolerated at Bookfair 2020.
Simplez

Please stop baiting my ass, it's too easy and it's just not sportsman like.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Mid way and later stage here people are effectivley arguing that a degree of "transphobia" is ok, c


I haven’t seen that, and would call that out. I think you’re mistaken.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 25, 2019)

I've been keeping out of this thread, mainly because it feels pretty pointless to be moaning about/defending an event which won't take place for another year and in which only Rhydiccal is playing an even remotely constructive role. But just on the whole thing of Helen's exclusion from anarchist events for transphobia being overblown and something of an outrage due to her legendary status as an activist (I don't mean that sarcastically, I do have massive respect for her role in fighting McLibel, spycops and all the rest), I think possibly people haven't been keeping up with events:

_Helen subscribing to a conspiracy theory about a shadowy organisation funding the "trans lobby" for reasons unknown, with an anti-semitic twist i can't really give her the benefit of the doubt on given how famous it is:_


_She was one of a half-dozen people who turned out to try and disrupt Manchester Pride as part of (another) conspiracy theory that has been rejected roundly by pretty much the entire LGBT community that lesbians are being "erased" by the presence of trans people at Pride._


_Last week (and consistently for a while) she was peddling the line that toilets should be policed to keep trans people out and referring to a different perspective as "indoctrination". Not only is such policing obviously not possible in real terms, to try and legislate on it would actually repress rights which have never been taken away from trans people before now._

Helen isn't a "reasonable concerns" person, she's a very well-known hardliner with a history of trying to disrupt events to push a particular transphobic perspective. It's a tremendously sad thing to see her take that path, but we can't pretend that it hasn't happened, or that her presence at anarchist events isn't therefore divisive as hell and certain to cause a massive fight.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 25, 2019)

Well the last few posts do a pretty good job of confirming the concerns people had a start of this thread.

I don't think a single person on this thread has argued that transphobia be accepted or minimised. What people have argued is that it is not as simple as transphobes vs non-transphobes.



Rhyddical said:


> Somewhere in the early commentary there was something or other about "men who cut their dicks off",


I've searched this thread and I can find no such statement.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Somewhere in the early commentary there was something or other about "men who cut their dicks off"



The search feature isn't perfect but often good enough. A search for the word "dicks" in this thread leads to two posts: yours and redsquirrel quoting it.

Search Results for Query: Dicks | urban75 forums


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Somewhere in the early commentary there was something or other about "men who cut their dicks off"



Where?




Rhyddical said:


> Women (noun) shit and stuff equating trans rights activists = pathetic liberals.



Where?




Rhyddical said:


> Mid way and later stage here people are effectivley arguing that a degree of "transphobia" is ok...



Where?




Rhyddical said:


> My definitions of whats transphobic come from the trans people being abused and bullied...



Why not listen to women who are being abused and bullied?


ETA: Actually, don't bother, your "like it or lump it" makes it clear you're not willing to listen to others; you seem to prefer to repeat the same old nonsense which you're unable to back up.

But God luck with the bookfair. It doesn't sound like it'll be an anarchist event, but I genuinely hope something positive comes out of it.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 25, 2019)

NB// Rhyiddical you may note a certain ignoring of my post from the likes of Magnus and Athos. This is normal when things are presented to them which don't back their case, and has happened across multiple other threads (one reason I stopped bothering to engage with them). They can be decent folks on other topics but there's a lot of not very well hidden partisanship on trans rights, as you may have already noted.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> NB// Rhyiddical you may note a certain ignoring of my post from the likes of Magnus and Athos. This is normal when things are presented to them which don't back their case, and has happened across multiple other threads (one reason I stopped bothering to engage with them). They can be decent folks on other topics but there's a lot of not very well hidden partisanship on trans rights, as you may have already noted.



Actually I've shifted quite a bit towards being less partisan; I try not to engage with trans threads anymore tbh and the subject has pretty much died out on here beyond it being raised again in regards to the book fair. 
And isn't the whole problem that everyone is being partisan one way or the other?


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I've been keeping out of this thread, mainly because it feels pretty pointless to be moaning about/defending an event which won't take place for another year and in which only Rhydiccal is playing an even remotely constructive role. But just on the whole thing of Helen's exclusion from anarchist events for transphobia being overblown and something of an outrage due to her legendary status as an activist (I don't mean that sarcastically, I do have massive respect for her role in fighting McLibel, spycops and all the rest), I think possibly people haven't been keeping up with events:
> 
> _Helen subscribing to a conspiracy theory about a shadowy organisation funding the "trans lobby" for reasons unknown, with an anti-semitic twist i can't really give her the benefit of the doubt on given how famous it is:_
> View attachment 182028
> ...



The commentary doesn't reflect the content of the tweets to which they refer!


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 25, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Actually I've shifted quite a bit towards being less partisan; I try not to engage with trans threads anymore tbh and the subject has pretty much died out on here beyond it being raised again in regards to the book fair.
> And isn't the whole problem that everyone is being partisan one way or the other?



Good to hear if so, as I say I've been trying not to get drawn into it so much, got enough stress in life as it is!


----------



## smokedout (Aug 25, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Well the last few posts do a pretty good job of confirming the concerns people had a start of this thread.
> 
> I don't think a single person on this thread has argued that transphobia be accepted or minimised. What people have argued is that it is not as simple as transphobes vs non-transphobes.



I asked on the other thread if anyone, who wasn't trans, was prepared to give a definition of what they thought transphobia was, and no-one took it up.  I think this is a problem, because I hear lots of people saying of course I;m opposed to transphobia but I very rarely see those people actually acknowledge that anything but the most pantomime alt right stuff or outright bullying is actually transphobic.  There seems to be no acknowledgement that transphobia, much like other prejudices, can be indirect, unconscious or unintentional, and at times highly sophisticated - in fact deliberately highly sophisticated because those with a genuinely transphobic agenda have learned from anti-Semitism and other forms of organised bigotry how to use symbols, codes and nudge nudge phrases which on the surface seem perfectly innocent - adult human female t-shirts for example, but which in reality are signalling a much more malign set of views.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> NB// Rhyiddical you may note a certain ignoring of my post from the likes of Magnus and Athos. This is normal when things are presented to them which don't back their case, and has happened across multiple other threads (one reason I stopped bothering to engage with them). They can be decent folks on other topics but there's a lot of not very well hidden partisanship on trans rights, as you may have already noted.


Rob, nobody is “ignoring” your posts. You have outlined why you think Helen Steel has gone down a conspiracy-ridden rabbit hole. 

But unless I’m mistaken, Helen has not posted on this thread. And yet Rhyddical has claimed there are people making transphobic comments and arguing that “a degree of transphobia is OK” _on this thread_. I must have missed it. Nobody has argued any such thing.

This seems to me to be what happens when we divide into identity ghettoes. Any disagreement becomes perceived as bigotry.

This is why I try to keep away from the trans/gender critical debate.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 25, 2019)

I'm going to bow out before getting much further onto the roundabout, but my point with noting a lack of response to the post was in the choices people make with what they respond to. It's been pretty standard that factual rebuttals (eg. on Helen's actual activities vs how she's characterised in a public letter) rarely get a reply and drop into the memory hole before, maybe a few threads down the line, the subject gets brought up again as though nothing had happened. Meanwhile an inaccuracy is leapt on with full force. I know that's sometimes part and parcel of a fractious thread, but got so endemic on trans issues that I just didn't see the point engaging in it all.

On which note imma do my thing and get back to work, laters all .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm going to bow out before getting much further onto the roundabout, but my point with noting a lack of response to the post was in the choices people make with what they respond to. It's been pretty standard that factual rebuttals (eg. on Helen's actual activities vs how she's characterised in a public letter) rarely get a reply and drop into the memory hole before, maybe a few threads down the line, the subject gets brought up again as though nothing had happened. Meanwhile an inaccuracy is leapt on with full force. I know that's sometimes part and parcel of a fractious thread, but got so endemic on trans issues that I just didn't see the point engaging in it all.
> 
> On which note imma do my thing and get back to work, laters all .



Often on message boards people engage mostly with what they disagree with. That means that posts in which others take no issue will often get no response or sometimes some likes. Although, Athos did give a reply of sorts to it.


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> ... my point with noting a lack of response to the post was in the choices people make with what they respond to. It's been pretty standard that factual rebuttals (eg. on Helen's actual activities vs how she's characterised in a public letter) rarely get a reply and drop into the memory hole before, maybe a few threads down the line, the subject gets brought up again as though nothing had happened.



Both of us responded within six posts!


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I asked on the other thread if anyone, who wasn't trans, was prepared to give a definition of what they thought transphobia was, and no-one took it up.  I think this is a problem, because I hear lots of people saying of course I;m opposed to transphobia but I very rarely see those people actually acknowledge that anything but the most pantomime alt right stuff or outright bullying is actually transphobic.  There seems to be no acknowledgement that transphobia, much like other prejudices, can be indirect, unconscious or unintentional, and at times highly sophisticated - in fact deliberately highly sophisticated because those with a genuinely transphobic agenda have learned from anti-Semitism and other forms of organised bigotry how to use symbols, codes and nudge nudge phrases which on the surface seem perfectly innocent - adult human female t-shirts for example, but which in reality are signalling a much more malign set of views.



How about: 

'Unjustified differential (and prejudicial) treatment (direct or indirect) of trans people, because of their trans status.'

What's your opinion of that?  Do you have a better definition?


----------



## nyxx (Aug 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Rob, nobody is “ignoring” your posts. You have outlined why you think Helen Steel has gone down a conspiracy-ridden rabbit hole.
> 
> But unless I’m mistaken, Helen has not posted on this thread. And yet Rhyddical has claimed there are people making transphobic comments and arguing that “a degree of transphobia is OK” _on this thread_. I must have missed it.



Surely it's obvious to anyone who's been following this issue that the classic / glaring example of who exactly might be excluded by this bookfair's policy would be Helen Steel. And Rob Ray has helpfully shown exactly why this is the case, and why it should not be controversial.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2019)

Athos said:


> How about:
> 
> 'Unjustified differential (and prejudicial) treatment (direct or indirect) of trans people, because of their trans status.'
> 
> What's your opinion of that?  Do you have a better definition?


What would justified differential (and prejudicial) treatment (direct or indirect) of trans people, because of their trans status look like? Not sure' unjustified' necessary


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## danny la rouge (Aug 25, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Surely it's obvious to anyone who's been following this issue that the classic / glaring example of who exactly might be excluded by this bookfair's policy would be Helen Steel. And Rob Ray has helpfully shown exactly why this is the case, and why it should not be controversial.


Hi nyxx, thanks for the response.

As a provincial anarchist who has been in London maybe 5 times in his life, and who has never attended a London anarchist book fair, it’s not obvious to me at all where the specific battle lines are drawn. Which is why I asked the question early on.

However, in this instance I was not taking issue with Rob Ray ’s criticism of Helen’s tweets. As it happens, I don’t agree with her. Further, I fully back the ACG statement that Serge Forward helpfully posted upthread.

And, for the avoidance of doubt, I offer solidarity and support to  Rhyddical ’s efforts in taking on the book fair, even though I am unlikely to be able to afford the time or money to attend.

The point I made to Rob Ray and to Rhyddical is that there has not _on this thread_ been anyone arguing that “a degree of transphobia is OK”. If anyone had argued such a thing, I’d have disagreed with them on it.

Nor has anyone _on this thread_, except Rhyddical, mentioned severed dicks.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 25, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I asked on the other thread if anyone, who wasn't trans, was prepared to give a definition of what they thought transphobia was, and no-one took it up.  I think this is a problem, because I hear lots of people saying of course I;m opposed to transphobia but I very rarely see those people actually acknowledge that anything but the most pantomime alt right stuff or outright bullying is actually transphobic.  There seems to be no acknowledgement that transphobia, much like other prejudices, can be indirect, unconscious or unintentional, and at times highly sophisticated


Well, one point that I would agree with Rhyddical on is that I don't think trying to define transphobia is useful. As you point out all prejudices can be 'indirect, unconscious or unintentional', so I don't think trying to pin point whether certain viewpoints are transphobic or not is very useful.

For example I feel trying to work out in what circumstances it is or is not transphobic to argue for cis/natal-women only spaces seems to be to be a fruitless enterprise that is only going to lead to more division. There have been eloquent and considered posts on U75 about why some people have problems with domestic violence shelters not (having the option of) being cis/natal women only spaces, I don't think it is useful to label all those that hold such a view as transphobes (that's not to say that there are not some undoubted full-blown transphobic arseholes that are support cis/natal women only spaces). 

Surely we can better address the real practical problems you talked about in your previous post by recognising that it is inevitable that the  transphobia and sexism (and all other prejudices) systemic to our society is going to require us all to think about how we negotiate our prejudices.


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> What would justified differential (and prejudicial) treatment (direct or indirect) of trans people, because of their trans status look like? Not sure' unjustified' necessary



I.e. it'd be justified to treat trans women differently from cis women to offer prostate exams.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

If I'm wrong with the "men cut of dicks " bits, thats great... I'm 90% positive I read past something that said that here, happy to be wrong.

I would argue tho that it's very clear that some people here are trying minimise the impact of transphobia (in part by attempting to define what is transphobia so that it doesn't include XYZ) and petty foggle definitions and suggest that "possible transphobes" - depending on your definition) be provided a welcome and platform at a space that has said very clearly that it is providing a safer space for the trans community.

If none of you believe that transphobia is ok then you shouldn't have an issue with an anti-transphobia policy... so your issue is that trans people shouldn't have the capicty to decide or define what is predjudical against them.

Yes, let's leave it to people who are being called transphobic to decide what transphobia is.

Smart.

I'm not saying every trans person is a scholar and the judge jury and exectioner but the community has been pretty clear about what cross the line... 

Shit like calling all trans people rapists, peadophiles and sexual devients. Thats transphobic yeah?

Misgendering people on purpose, doxxing them and capitalising on overt transphobic memes, phrases and undermining lanuage (Trans women are men etc etc)

I hope we all agree that the above is transphobic yeah? That's whats not welcome.

If I appear glib at times it's because I'm speading a great portion of my time in similar discussions and to be honest it's heartbreaking that Anarchist comrades need this very simple shit explaining to them. That's mixed in with a lot of disengenous shit stirring by people who know very well what poison they sow and to be honest, I'm sort of burnt out from being patient.

If people have concerns that a space isn't welcoming transphobes then thats their malfunction and I truly, 100% hope they come along and spend some time at Bookfair2020 and join in with the discussions that develop our anti bigotry positions as anarchists,revolutionaries and comrades.

I'm not the twat I appear to be on thread at times ;p


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I would argue tho that it's very clear that some people here are trying minimise the impact of transphobia and petty foggle definitions as that be provided a welcome and platform at a space that has said very clearly that it is providing a safer space for the trans community.


Who is trying to minimise the impact of transphobia? I must have missed it.

I can’t follow the second part of your paragraph.


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I would argue tho that it's very clear that some people here are trying minimise the impact of transphobia...



You keep making these accusations, and repeatedly falling to back them up with any examples when challenged.


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ... it's heartbreaking that Anarchist comrades need their very simple shit explaining to them.



Have you considered that it might be better to spend some time listening to comrades, rather than "explaining" stuff to them?  And the possibility that it's not as "simple" as it superficially appears?


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## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> If people have concerns that a space isn't welcoming transphobes...



I'm genuinely bemused as to whether you're stupid or disingenuous to keep making this point.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> What would justified differential (and prejudicial) treatment (direct or indirect) of trans people, because of their trans status look like? Not sure' unjustified' necessary



I'll bite just this once because that answer really sums up the problem in my opinion.  The justified justifies everything, its really just a sliding scale and you get to pick where to draw the line.  So it could be prisons, sports, refuges, trans people in the military, trans people working in schools or healthcare and on and on.

But more importantly that is trans discrimination which is a consequence of transphobia.  To apply that definition to another field as an example would mean  holocaust denial and promotion of conspiracy theories are not anti-semitic.  Transphobia is an ideology, one that is clearly laid out in texts such as Transsexual Empire and whhich has underpinned the much of this debate.  Why have we spent so much time discussing the superceded and discredited 40 year old theories of a dodgy old reactionery like Blanchard.  No-one should have even heard of the autogynephilia theory unless they work in that field and yet it is everywhere and has been bastardised way beyond even what Blanchard claims.  This is not accidental.  Jeffreys, Raymond and others have been pushing it for years and it was seeded directly into the architecture of the fledgling GC movement against self ID.  And its a very effective strategy, invoking as it does the very legitimate fear of male sexual violence and also the illegitimate social prejudice that feminine or effeminate 'men' are dangerous or predatory.  This has the added advantage of creating an enemy that feminists and the conservative right can rally against, and in fact that is exactly what's hapenning.  This isn't the only example, to browse through mumsnet sometimes its as if someone decided to rewrite Transsexual Empire in the form of a message board  conversation as some kind of edgy literery experiment.

Now that doesn't mean that anyone who asks questions about autogynephilia is a transphobe, of course people are going to ask questions its everywhere.  But it's clearly not objective that this decades old theory, which just happens to be the one most socially damaging to trans people, is given so much prominence in this debate when there is a huge amount work available, from trans, queer and feminist scholars, researchers and writers which is far more up to date and evidence based and which goes undiscussed or is glibly dismissed.  Much like the excitable conspiracy theorist who sincerely believes David Icke means lizards and stuff, and is probably not personally anti-semitic themselves, some in the GC movement along with fellow questioners may not see themselves as transphobic but are still pursuing a narrative that has been very finely honed with the aim of encouraging support for morally mandating transsexuality of out existence by eliminating the medical and social institutions which support it.

That's why this debate can be so difficult for trans people.  The entire narrative is framed in transphobia, whether conscious or not, which is unsurprising when we live in a transphobic society.  To even discuss this a lot of the time means taking a deep breath and overlooking a lot of the unconsciously held transphobic ideology as well as the nonsense like stories about fucking Ian Huntley or some creepy oddball 3000 miles away, before even getting to the pragmatic issues which are important and which I fully agree now need to be discussed if anarchism and the wider left is to make any progress on this.

And I don;t really want to get back into the broader debate despite writing all that.  I'm just trying to show how this debate looks and feels to a lot of trans people who know the history of both the ideology and some of the players involved in seeding those ideas into GC feminism, and hoping that some people might bear it in mind before declaring I'm not transphobic but...


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

smokedout said:


> ... The justified justifies everything, its really just a sliding scale and you get to pick where to draw the line.  So it could be prisons, sports, refuges, trans people in the military, trans people working in schools or healthcare and on and on.



Of course it's a sliding scale, and a matter of where the line is drawn.  But, importantly, I think (in the context of the bookfair) it should be about where there's a consensus amongst anarchists about where the line should be.




smokedout said:


> But more importantly that is trans discrimination which is a consequence of transphobia.  To apply that definition to another field as an example would mean  holocaust denial and promotion of conspiracy theories are not anti-semitic.



No, I think that'd be captured by the "indirect" part of my proposed definition.

But I'd be quite happy to hear any definition you care to posit?




smokedout said:


> Much like the excitable conspiracy theorist who sincerely believes David Icke means lizards and stuff, and is probably not personally anti-semitic themselves, some in the GC movement along with fellow questioners may not see themselves as transphobic but are still pursuing a narrative that has been very finely honed with the aim of encouraging support for morally mandating transsexuality of out existence by eliminating the medical and social institutions which support it.



Of course there's transphobes who don't consider themselves transphobic.  But there's also people who don't consider themselves transphobes, who aren't transhobic!




smokedout said:


> ... the pragmatic issues which are important and which I fully agree now need to be discussed if anarchism and the wider left is to make any progress on this.



But not at bookfair?


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

I'm not engaging on a point for point with you Athos, I'm certainly not going to "provide evidence" by calling people out of the various dog whistles , X is my comrade, trans= liberal etc etc stuff. I'm not here for a petty mud slinging match.

I personally feel that a fair whack of this thread is specifically focused on saying that the people trans people are calling transphobic, in fact arn't transphobic and in fact should be provided a platform at a trans friendly space.

I feel that undermines the safety and security of attendees.

Aside from our policy on having no tolerance for Transphobia do you have any other queries about Bookfair 2020?

(Danny, I was out the door and it didn't make sense // edited lol)


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I'm not engauging on a point for point with you Athos, I'm certainly not going to "provide evidence"...



So I see.

It's a shame that those purported anarchists who'd presume to exercise power over other anarchists feel it's not incumbent on them to be accountable.

But hey ho.  Good luck with YOUR event.


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## smokedout (Aug 25, 2019)

Athos said:


> Of course there's transphobes who don't consider themselves transphobic.  But there's also people who don't consider themselves transphobes, who aren't transhobic!



As well as people who dont consider themselves transphobic, and probably arent really and who yet are still unwittingly pursuing a transphobic narrative.



> But not at bookfair?



No I don't think so not this first time.  I do think the debate needs to happen, but I don't think there is any chance of the bookfair re-establishing itself if it is preordained to be dominated by this conflict and I don't think it's fair on the organisers to expect them to facilitate that.

That's your lot by the way, I find your obsession with this and your aggresive pursuit of it a bit creepy and unpleasant so back on ignore I'm afraid.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

Athos said:


> So I see.
> 
> It's a shame that those purported anarchists who'd presume to exercise power over other anarchists feel it's not incumbent on them to be accountable.
> 
> But hey ho.  Good luck with YOUR event.




We're not exercising any power other Anarchists, what nonsense.

Saying no transphobia should not affect other Anarchists.
Saying please don't attend if you are transphobic isn't excerising power, even over transphobes lol.

There are 16 pages of accountability and reasoning for the safer spaces policy here alone.
Not sure how many times you want it repeating.


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

smokedout said:


> That's your lot by the way, I find your obsession with this and your aggresive pursuit of it a bit creepy and unpleasant so back on ignore I'm afraid.



Convenient.


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We're not exercising any power other Anarchists, what nonsense.
> 
> Saying no transphobia should not affect other Anarchists.
> Saying please don't attend if you are transphobic isn't excerising power, even over transphobes lol.
> ...



It's a big event in the anarchist calendar, and one at which you're policing opinions which you're unable to demonstrate are incompatible with anarchism; you seem unable to recognise that there are anarchists who disagree with you, without being transphobic.  That you fail to recognise that policing as an exercise of power is laughable in a purported anarchist.

You've not offered any justification; you've failed to engage in any meaningful discussion.  Instead, you've repeated the same thing again and again (i.e. the lie that people here are trying to excuse/minimise transphobia), and failed to back it up when challenged.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 25, 2019)

An update BOOKFAIR MEETING 10TH AUGUST - Bookfair 2020

Also looks like the groups up for being there list has been expanded:
Bookfair 2020 - Bookfair 2020 (Bottom of the page).


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

> "You've not offered any justification; you've failed to engage in any meaningful discussion.  Instead, you've repeated the same thing again and again "




Maybe go page to page 3/4 and read the reams of text I've wrote addressing concerns and having meaningful conversation.

Let me ask you this tho...
The only people barred from entry will be those who we know due to being prominant as transphobic bigots, the Posie Parkers and Ben Shapiros etc Everyone else with GC concerns but enjoys Anarchist bookfairs, provided they respect the space is going to attend regardless. I have no idea what you perceive our door policy is, this aint Equilibrium and we cant tell whose a tankie, fash, homophobes with telepathic powers.

What Anarchist groups or individuals do you think should be given a stall or allowed to leaflet?

Who is it you feel is being cut out?

I truly don't understand who it is you feel should be there but is barred by a no transphobia policy....

You acknowledge transphobia exists, so I'm just wondering who these people/groups in the hinterland you are so worried about are?


I have chosen not to "back it up" becuase there thread is right here for anyone who cares and you are baiting me into a personal spat with others that I shant entertain, I feel much of it is problematic, you do not. That is fine.

As I've said several times, I recognise that some Anarchists disagree with me, I have quite pleasent situationally appropriate conversations with GC Feminists / Anarchists on a weekly matter. Bookfair 2020 isn't such a venue and we are simply asking people to respect that.


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Maybe go page to page 3/4 and read the reams of text I've wrote addressing concerns and having meaningful conversation.



I read your long posts; they didn't really address the issue.  You just kept pretending that people here were defending transphobia.




Rhyddical said:


> The only people barred from entry will be those who we know due to being prominant as transphobic bigots, the Posie Parkers and Ben Shapiros etc



Absent any attempt by you to define transhobia, that can very quickly become an arbitrary exercise of power.




Rhyddical said:


> Everyone else with GC concerns but enjoys Anarchist bookfairs, provided they respect the space is going to attend regardless.



By "respect the space" you mean only express those anarchist opinions of which you approve, on pain of expulsion.




Rhyddical said:


> What Anarchist groups or individuals do you think should be given a stall or allowed to leaflet?  Who is it you feel is being cut out?  I truly don't understand who it is you feel should be there but is barred by a no transphobia policy...



I've already made clear my position on which opinions should be allowed to be expressed by anarchists.




Rhyddical said:


> You acknowledge transphobia exists, so I'm just wondering who these people/groups in the hinterland you are so worried about are?



The people ("in the hinterland" lol) I'm worried about are anarchist women who are increasingly being bullied into not expressing an opinion.




Rhyddical said:


> I have chosen not to "back it up" becuase there thread is right here for anyone who cares and you are baiting me into a personal spat with others that I shant entertain, I feel much of it is problematic, you do not. That is fine.



You're entering into the "spat" already; the reason you're not backing it up is because many of your claims about what has been posted on this thread are demonstrably false.




Rhyddical said:


> As I've said several times, I recognise that some Anarchists disagree with me, I have quite pleasent situationally appropriate conversations with GC Feminists / Anarchists on a weekly matter.  Bookfair 2020 isn't such a venue and we are simply asking people to respect that.



You're not just asking people, though, are you?  The fact is that you'll enforce your vision of "situationally appropriateness" on other anarchists.


I get it: it's your (the new organisers') event, you're the boss, so you make the rules.  That's your right, and it is what it is.  But let's be clear what that model isn't - and that's the political successor (in any meaningful way) of the London Anarchist Bookfair.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

I have defined transphobia several times.

The differance here is you do not accept or realise the damage and threat transphobes present to the trans community.

So you accept certain forms of policing (IE no national anarchists, no anarchist capitalists, no homophobes, no ablesists, no tankies etc) but want to spit your dummy and argue minutia when it comes to transphobes.

You are demanding that the vunerable prove beyond all judgement the nature of their oppression while demanding space for their oppressors at their table.

You have not named a single organisation or person you think we should offer a platform too and keep going on with strawman arguements about comrades being silenced.

Don't be a bigot, don't get kicked out.
It's a simple message and it comes from the heart x

We arn't "the boss". The very first thing we have done is invited conversation and debate, we have expanded our collective with diverse comrades and allowed the nature of Bookfair 2020 to develop. You seem keen to paint us a certain way, unfortuantly the collective doesn't fit that picture and I truly hope you come to Bookfair 2020 as a comrade and see that. Even if we seem to be getting a little short with each other, which to be fair isn't your fault, elsewhere I am dealing with genuine full on bigots and no doubt some of my lack of chill is rubbing off here.

I've already apologised if I misread/misremembered bits of the early thread but regarding reducing the threat of transphobia I'd argue that you athos are doing it right now with your hypocritical attitudes as to when it's ok for Anarchists to say we don't want bigots in our spaces. You want space for people, but wont name them, you seem to want a platform for people who inr eality push a bigotry that quite literally kills our comrades and you are labelling those who want to provide a safer space "police" like some alt-righter and making up hyperbolic nonsence about us silencing women and I'm sure you are a better comrade than that.


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I have defined transphobia several times.
> 
> The differance here is you do not accept or realise the damage and threat transphobes present to the trans community.
> 
> ...



You've not defined transphobia at all.

I recognise the dangers of transphobia.  But we don't don't agree what it is (because you can't really say).  Also, I recognise the dangers to anarchism of authoritarianism.

I'm not spittng the dummy or arguing any minutiae.  I disagree with you, that's all.

I'm not demanding trans people prove anything.
Nor am I demanding anything for their oppressors.  I think it's possible to disagree with some things some trans people say without that amounting to oppression.

I'm not going to name comrades who have been made to feel silenced/unwelcome, sorry.

We continue to disagree about the nature of your control of the event.  And the nature of my issues with it.

It's not anarchists saying who they want in their spaces; it's a small subset of anarchists deciding that for the wider anarchist community.

But, I'm sure your heart's in the right place, so I'll wish you good luck with your event (even if it doesn't sound like something that appeals to me), and leave it there, rather than go round and round in circles.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

Ok. fair enough,not to go round in circles but it's clear you'd rather a dictionary style definition from myself so to be clear for the rest of the thread.

Transphobia,is the range of predjudice toward trans and non binary people. These can be personal,institutional and political in nature.

Transphobic actions stretch from undermining of the community, reducing trans womens/mens respective equality and identity in society as women/men but generally revolves more around personal feelings. Common presentation of this include removing trans womens agency as women, labelling trans people rapists, peadophiles or sexual deviants. It can be an overt action of violence or a subtle social pressure,It can be persistant misgendering or outright lack of acknowledgement and transphobia is often obfuscated behind dog whistes and seemingly well meaning concerns. Further to this more common for non binary and agender people is the outright refusal to acknowledge their existance or to project some form of mental illness as the reasoning behind their non binary or trans status.

In respect to Anarchist organising, this definition shouldn't codified as a law or policy as that is inherantly a bit flawed but held in the "spirit" of the thing... We don't need paperwork and policy to know when someone is saying something from a position of predjudice, Technicalities and symantics are often what bigots hide behind and we need to be much more savvy than to allow for that.

Edit. What it isn't.
Comradely concern / disagreement, religious difficulty, lack of knowledge, not fancying someone, getting pronouns wrong, accidentally dead naming, not really "getting it" etc etc This things happen and can be dealt with in suitable manners and venues.

What is your definition of Transphobia? Genuinely interested.

Mind you.
_"it's a small subset of anarchists deciding that for the wider anarchist community." _// You mean every single network of Anarchists and Anarchistic organisation as well as every single bookfair collective in the UK?

If you can't name a single Anarchist organisation who we should give a stall too that we arn't, IDK how to help...


----------



## Athos (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Ok. fair enough,not to go round in circles but it's clear you'd rather a dictionary style definition from myself so to be clear for the rest of the thread.
> 
> Transphobia,is the range of predjudice toward trans and non binary people. These can be personal,institutional and political in nature.
> 
> ...





Athos said:


> ... so I'll... leave it there, rather than go round and round in circles.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 25, 2019)

smokedout said:


> or what happen to a trans woman who needs a refuge but can't access one because it is cis women only.


You shouldn't blame a women only refuge for not providing trans refuge, instead of demanding a properly funded social services.



smokedout said:


> do place trans people at heightened risk of social violence.



The argument about "the heightened risk of social violence argument" is used by second gen feminists aswell:  since the rise of a certain strand of pro-trans 'anti-terf' activism has seen violence heaped on the head of the female librarian mentioned earlier, or this kind of behaviour





They can claim the other side's right to organise should be squeezed away. 


Because Rhyddical, you are against developmental with xenophobes



Rhyddical said:


> as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.



and ask... 



Rhyddical said:


> What can we do to make it better for you, and help empower new comrades? Would love to hear your throughts.



Have you considered rejecting speakers with mohawk and dreadlock hair like Montreal have done. 

_*we will not be accepting applications from people wanting to present or table if we know them to be making culturally appropriative choices in how they dress or behave...*_
*think seriously before deciding to show up dressed or behaving in ways that are culturally appropriative. If it’s more important to you to wear your hair or dress any way you want, even if you know that might be a misrepresentation of someone else’s culture, maybe you should stay home.*


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## Rhyddical (Aug 25, 2019)

> " Have you considered rejecting speakers with mohawk and dreadlock hair like Montreal have done.



We have not and I doubt we will.
Montreal (and most of the Americas) have a differant context to Britain. It is one of overt ongoing occupation, systematic racism and cultural appropriation. There are also nuance to the British context in that along side culturally approriated dreads see a long history of matted hair in our own heritage and banner rulings such as this are (imo) harmful in events such as this as they are not workable. The better solutions here are educational and generally via osmosis. This doesn't meant that Rastafarian people don't have every right to take uppance with the white kid in a rastacap with a mock accent.

TBh if Bookfair 2020 was in Canada we probably would have such a policy.
Because context is critical.

Roasario-Sanchez took flack for organising with Women's Place, a notable and prominant transphobic organisation.  She wasn't accosted due to xenophobia nor to my knowledge was her race or place of birth ever brought into things.

So why would you say that? (edit // they didn't my bad, misread)

It is interesting that you chose to omit that the person she is accusing of these and all many of heinous crimes was doxxed by transphobes and have been under constant abuse and harassment since.

Whether or not trans rights activists should accost their oppressors or sqeeze out the organisational capacity of those who promote transphobia under the guise of feminism isn't really for this thread tho is it. This isn't the "let's debate everything to do with trans politics" thread it's the Bookfair 2020 thread and Bookfair 2020 has very cleary stated it would not welcome groups such as Womens Place. Not only do they tought Bigotry they are not Anarchist nor Anarchist friendly.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 25, 2019)

sihhi said:


> You shouldn't blame a women only refuge for not providing trans refuge, instead of demanding a properly funded social services.



Of course, more funding for the refuge sector should be an absolute priority and would take much of the sting out of the debate about this.  But in the absence of that it doesn't solve the problem does it to just say trans people should get there own refuges and wash their hands with it, especially because it is the GC movement asking for change - most refuges have been trans inclusive for a long time.  This is precisely the opposite of the spirit of mutual aid.  In fact it is identity politics writ large, we've got our protections as a marginalised group so fuck yours, sort yourself out.  And even if by some miracle we did win better funding if funding for a tran refuge was preceved to be taking away from a non trans refuge the animosity, with these kinds of attitudes would remain.  There is also the factor that a trans only refuge would be woilly impractical and probaby lie empty most of the time,  we are talking about a tiny number of people, is there a way within the current available resources a solution can be found that ensures everyones safety and is supported by both refuge residents and workers whether cis or trans.  I suspect there is, I think this is exacty the kind of thing anarchism could be good at if some of the vitriol and refusal to give an inch on either side was dropped.



> The argument about "the heightened risk of social violence argument" is used by second gen feminists aswell:  since the rise of a certain strand of pro-trans 'anti-terf' activism has seen violence heaped on the head of the female librarian mentioned earlier, or this kind of behaviour



Gender Critical feminists are not being beaten up in the street for being gender critical.  I have criticised the tactics used, repeatedly on several threads, however that doesn't excuse and negate people organising meetings which are used to spread damaging conspiracy theories and half baked pseudo-scientific theories with the intent of fostering anti trans sentiment in society.  That is a shit thing to do and it concerns me that whilst lots of people mumble oh yes, posie parker, transphobia thats bad, very few seem to actually criticise the meetings her and others have addressed whilst remaining outraged that trans people have protested against what they themselves reluctantly admit is transphobia.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 25, 2019)

_if some of the vitriol and refusal to give an inch on either side was dropped._

I quite agree

_Gender Critical feminists are not being beaten up in the street for being gender critical. _

The problem is that to them they are receiving violence and they are not doing any beating up in the street.





At the moment things seem to heading for exclusion and division.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 25, 2019)

Just to add on refuges from an anarchist point of view surely whilst recognising that fighting for more funding for refuges run by charities is currently vital there are other class based solutions to this problem that may mean its not the victim of domestic violence who feels the need to go into hiding in a different city but the perpetrator.  There could be a lot of value in class struggle anarchism studying these issues, which often affect our class, beyond just trying to clear up an internal conflict.  And there is clear pragmatic benefit in uniting in the fight against the defunding of VAWG services. Perhaps by thinking about radical ways of addressing domestic violence in our communities and joining those struggles to save what limited provisions exist then solutions may present themselves and solidarity re-appear, and the theory and way forward might emerge from the practice.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 25, 2019)

sihhi said:


> _if some of the vitriol and refusal to give an inch on either side was dropped._
> 
> I quite agree
> 
> ...



There are allegations of all kinds of things from both sides.  There have been abuses on all sides.  Both sides need to own that and then a line in the sand can be drawn.  And it may be that people who think trans ideology is some big conspiracy theory being pushed by Soros and other rich men to some devious secret end cannot be a part of that process,  and that people who think someone deserves a drinnk throwing in their face for that can;t be part of that process either, and luckily probably neither of them want to be.  But I think there are enough cis women, non binary folk and trans people in the movement who are perhaps ready for that process so slowly begin.  I fucking hope so anyway.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 25, 2019)

Rhyddical 


> We have not and I doubt we will.
> Montreal (and most of the Americas) have a differant context to Britain. It is one of overt ongoing occupation, systematic racism and cultural appropriation. There are also nuance to the British context in that along side culturally approriated dreads see a long history of matted hair in our own heritage and banner rulings such as this are (imo) harmful in events such as this as they are not workable. The better solutions here are educational and generally via osmosis.


This is exactly the point worth considering why not trans issues be conducted via osmosis, education, open debate instead of saying 'gender critical feminism' is beyond the pale.



> TBh if Bookfair 2020 was in Canada we probably would have such a policy.
> Because context is critical.



As an aside it appears some Canadians are critical of Montreal's Bookfair policy, sample comment from a forum discussing it: 
_What we are debating is rich college kids excluding us from events. Punks have carried anarchists for decades long before all these rich college kids showed up. We are a sub culture of working class people, and run deep globally. Banning mohawks and dreadlocks is a shot over the bow to punks. It feels like rich campus snobs turning up their nose to people they think are undesirable.
Huasipungo, Los Crudos, Kontra Attaque, Emperismo, Subsistencia? These are all racist bands? Crazy._



> Roasario-Sanchez took flack for organising with Women's Place, a notable and prominant transphobic organisation.  She wasn't accosted due to xenophobia nor to my knowledge was her race or place of birth ever brought into things.
> 
> So why would you say that?



I didn't say that.



> It is interesting that you chose to omit that the person she is accusing of these and all many of heinous crimes was doxxed by transphobes and have been under constant abuse and harassment since.



It appears both sides seem to fighting one another with ugly physical tactics (let alone the ugly insinuations)


----------



## sihhi (Aug 25, 2019)

smokedout said:


> There are allegations of all kinds of things from both sides.  There have been abuses on all sides.  Both sides need to own that and then a line in the sand can be drawn. And it may be that people who think trans ideology is some big conspiracy theory being pushed by Soros and other rich men to some devious secret end cannot be a part of that process,  and that people who think someone deserves a drinnk throwing in their face for that can;t be part of that process either, and luckily probably neither of them want to be.  But I think there are enough cis women, non binary folk and trans people in the movement who are perhaps ready for that process so slowly begin. I fucking hope so anyway.



Open debate surely has to be the precondition for any such line in the sand.

When Rhyddical explains: 


> Transphobia has no space in our movement, it's not to be debated, tolerated or given an ear.


then did not define it, there's something not ringing true. That's it from me, I have no further ideas.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 26, 2019)

_"This is exactly the point worth considering why not trans issues be conducted via osmosis, education, open debate instead of saying 'gender critical feminism' is beyond the pale."_

Because the transphobia and bigotry that is often lying behind "GC Feminism" is beyond the pale.

Still like I asked Athos, please suggest a Anarchist GC Feminist or organisation you think isn't transphobic and should have a stall, talk or workshop. Happy to hear suggestions.

_"then did not define it" _

We should not need to restate our definitions of bigotry every time a new aspect of oppression rears it's head. Neither should we have to astrix every conversation with an appendix or start it like it's a year nine essay. Transphobia is the blah blah.

We don't talk about xenophobia this way, why do we allow it about transphobia if not top normalise the people that an oppressed minority is telling you are oppressing them.

I have also defined it in numerous fashions in the thread.



Am I supposed to be shocked and horrified that someone disagrees with something in on the internet in canada?
Are you trying to equate cultural appropiration with outright bigotry or something... I don't really get it.
Clearly somethings are worth a debate, otherthings are not.

I have zero knowledge about the Bookfair crew in Montreal or their reasonings.
Bookfair 2020 is a collective of working class anarchists who are hold an event that is providing a safer space for people who suffer various aspects of bigotry.

You want to book a session on dreadlocks feel free, that would be a very interesting debate.
You want to book a session that says trans women are actually rapists and men trying to steal womanhood and you can fuck off.

It's not hard.

(you didn't equate the bristol situation with xenophobia, sorry...the formatting was confusing)


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 26, 2019)

Anytime we fancy talking about what kind of workshops were working on or events that'd be cool.

Hope we don't spend the next 14 months asking why the people who arn't Anarchists who forward a society that is abusive to Anarchists comrades arn't welcome at the Anarchist bookfair, or the Anarchist repeating that the Anarchists who do have concerns but being Anarchists can respect the space and the safety of others are welcome to the Anarchist Bookfair despite rumours of our telepathic police checking their minds for wrong think at the door.... Well... It might get old.

I mean come on comrades... is the no bigotry policy really the only aspect of interest to what should be one of the biggest events on the Anarchist calander in the UK? Have we lost so much imagination and revolutionary spirit that we'd rather spent 16 pages on this BS than talk about how we can do some awesome shit? These things are more than market places for books, they are the market place for dangerous ideas and our ultimate networking social. We should be cooking up fringe vents, revolutionary actions and ideas about engaging our working class breathren.

Can we not even pretend to step out of this unseemly debate over just how much tranphobia is ok or not?

I believe in you.
you are better than this and tho some of you might be long in the tooth, I know for a fact that some of you have lead the fucking way for the past forty years. You havn't sat pissing in the wind on a single issue, you've steamed ahead and made shit happen.

DO THAT.


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## Nigel (Aug 26, 2019)

Interesting that Freedom Press have taken side on this issue !
Sister not Cister: a fight to be safe


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## Red Sky (Aug 26, 2019)

Nigel said:


> Interesting that Freedom Press have taken side on this issue !
> Sister not Cister: a fight to be safe



It might be interesting but it's not surprising. This has been their editorial line for a while. Very much new anarchist.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 26, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Very much new anarchist.



New Anarchist? forgive me, what does that mean?
What's an Old Anarchist?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 26, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> What's an Old Anarchist?


We prefer senior.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 26, 2019)

.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 26, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> New Anarchist? forgive me, what does that mean?
> What's an Old Anarchist?



This obsession with the trans/TERF thing, the Tumblrista politics, all that good stuff. 

All introduced relatively recently.


----------



## Athos (Aug 26, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> What's an Old Anarchist?



An anarchist.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 26, 2019)

Athos said:


> An anarchist.



Well both kinds probably are but there's obviously quite a cultural/political gulf.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 26, 2019)

What differentiates the rights activism of liberals from the rights activism of anarchists? Class struggle? Does that even occur anymore?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 26, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We're not exercising any power other Anarchists, what nonsense.
> 
> Saying no transphobia should not affect other Anarchists.
> Saying please don't attend if you are transphobic isn't excerising power, even over transphobes lol.
> ...


Rhyddical Can I hand out leaflets cunting off religious people?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> New Anarchist? forgive me, what does that mean?
> What's an Old Anarchist?


12 years maturing in a whisky barrel


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Rhyddical Can I hand out leaflets cunting off religious people?


I think it's mandatory


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 26, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Rhyddical Can I hand out leaflets cunting off religious people?



Yeah provided they do not unfairly highlight specific religions in a manner that would seem all too familiar to xenophobes. It, like most things is contextual and no I don't have a twelve point list of what is racist and what isn't. haha
Use your noodle innit. Does it look like the kind of thing Farage would hand out? No... you probably ok.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What differentiates the rights activism of liberals from the rights activism of anarchists? Class struggle? Does that even occur anymore?



I guess some of the "old Anarchists" might not see it for all the focus on the new aspects of oppression but trust me, young bloods are very very keen on class struggle. From my experiance this is a general thing and extends way beyond Anarchism. I think in party we have Corbyn to thank for it (I know I know) ... Labour really pushed youth consciousness and I speak to fuck tons of young uns making their steps into Anarchism all the time and class struggle in very much a focus points. Mofos still hate tories and want to build a strong and conscious working class.


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## nyxx (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> New Anarchist? forgive me, what does that mean?
> What's an Old Anarchist?





danny la rouge said:


> We prefer senior.





Athos said:


> An anarchist.



Give em a cigarette?


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 27, 2019)

Nigel said:


> Interesting that Freedom Press have taken side on this issue !
> Sister not Cister: a fight to be safe



It says a lot about levels of practical involvement with the anarchist movement that you'd not noticed Freedom has an overtly pro-trans position before now tbh. It's not like it's been hidden and we've taken a great deal of crap as a result (moronic comments about Freedom coming over all Idpol being the least of it).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Give em a cigarette?



It's not a bad book either


----------



## chilango (Aug 27, 2019)

I want to reiterate - again - that my dog in this race isn't the trans issue. It's an increasingly inward looking, fractured and closed scene intent on policing and no platforming each other... that is alienating to me, and I fear many others.


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## LDC (Aug 27, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> It says a lot about levels of practical involvement with the anarchist movement that you'd not noticed Freedom has an overtly pro-trans position before now tbh. It's not like it's been hidden and we've taken a great deal of crap as a result (moronic comments about Freedom coming over all Idpol being the least of it).



What do you mean by an overtly pro-trans position, given the fact there's not agreement on things among trans people in the anarchist movement, let alone among trans people more widely?


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## Rob Ray (Aug 27, 2019)

Feel free to keep dancing on the head of whatever pin you're on there Lynn, but I ain't interested in joining you.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's an increasingly inward looking, fractured and closed scene intent on policing and no plans forming each other... that is alienating to me, and I fear many others.



It is not inward looking to oppose bigotry and oppression, especially when it's is being echoed by comrades.

Look let me give a current and ongoing situation.

Right now, the social media website transphobes and co. have a focus on "Spinster" is being co-ordinated by the guy behind "Gab" the notable right wing social media website. The guy who (yes guy) who runs it has a twitter account full of racist, far right drivel, not only did he build it as a branch of GAB it's app is now going to be hosted on the same App store as a whole bunch of very nazi shit.

Sadly, a great many of the moderate people folk here seem so worried about being cut out of the conversation are on Spinster and us it to spew bile (not saying there isn't more normal content on there... fuck even 8chan can be a good place for gardening tips)

These links are there and and they are being cultivated by overt bigots to draw in moderates and people with well meaning solidarity with their sisters and making them outright hardliners, through constant propoganda and pushing them to have hostile encounters with trans people or cherry picking anecdotes to push them deeper into the fold, this is a stratergy the far right use an  now even more so.

This is the reality of the need for a "no transphobia" policy.
It isn't there to cut out comrades but to secure a space that is protective of them and to say as an Anarchistic community we will not play host to bigots.

The very same reason we have "no xenophobia".

If you or your organisation arn't bigots, then you've nothing to worry about.

Meanwhile, the trans inclusive attitudes of feminists, queers and anarchists has had a massive impact on the community, expanding the volume of activists and organisers and I'd argue been very "outwardly" welcoming,  helping  a vast community get more involved in to what previously had been - let's be honest here - a bit of a macho playground.

The scene is developing and growing, finding new avenues and methods to help others discover and get behind Anarchism and to have their voice in the working class struggle. This is a great thing and in my mind, the very opposite of being inward looking and is infact very open and welcoming - provided you arn't a bigot, the only fracture point comes from abusive and hostile transphobes who have pushed and pushed and eventually been given the overt hostility back, subsequently using that hostility to say "see told you they were all nasty men!" and it'd fucking bullshit, we wouldn't accept it in any other sphere and we wont accept it here.

If a welcoming place for trans people is alienating then all the more reason to get involved and break through that.
The only hostility that occours in these spaces is when transpohobes rock up with leaflets calling trans women rapists and denying their existence n the like. Which I think overwhelmingly is something we all agree is shite.

Hopefully next year they will respect the space, either stay at home or organise a seperate function to express their ideas and everyone, trans and cis can have an epic peaceful bookfair.


edit. Those of you that think there isn't hostility and outright bigotry towards trans women, you might want to read the commentson the Devon Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Services twitter as they ask for "self identify women" volunteers.  Whether or not you agree with them or trans women working in such spaces, the level of abuse and transphobia here is appalling.

"Just think what an opportunity this is for all the men who get off on fantasising about rape...here they can get women to relive their horrific experiences in person for their masturbatory pleasure."

This shit if from people who think they are "lefties" and knowing a few of the names and accounts think they should have a welcome at the Bookfair. Not one of the "reasonably concerned" is a calling out the overt stuff. They are tolerant of bigotry.

We the fuck aint.


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## Athos (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical I said I'd leave it alone, but this is ridiculous!

People don't only need to fear if they *are* bigots; they're right to fear the possibility of you *thinking* they're bigots (even if they know they're not).

It's either hopelessly naive or downright disingenuous of you to pretend it's a clear-cut issue.

For example, what would happen to an anarchist woman, who, during the course of a debate about a feminist issue at Bookfair 2020, made a political choice to define her sex by reference to biology (believing that to be the material basis of the oppression of women as a class), in a polite and non-disruptive way, at a point that it's germane to that discussion?


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## Red Sky (Aug 27, 2019)

How was the arrival of veganism and animal rights issues dealt with in the bookfair and wider anarchist movement (late 80s/early 90s)?  Seems to me that could be vaguely analogous.


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## TopCat (Aug 27, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> How was the arrival of veganism and animal rights issues dealt with in the bookfair and wider anarchist movement (late 80s/early 90s)?  Seems to me that could be vaguely analogous.


I tried to flick donner meat into one of the huge vats of vegan slop that were always being cooked by (?) in the foyer of Conway Hall. This would have been 1985. 
Speeches were made about veganism was a middle class plot to keep the working classes wan and weak. 
The issue was a lot of the vegans then were our ALF comrades. We just put up with each other over it in the end.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2019)

People tolerated a lot more as we were always fighting the police and the ALF lot would be there alongside of you.


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## Red Sky (Aug 27, 2019)

TopCat said:


> People tolerated a lot more as we were always fighting the police and the ALF lot would be there alongside of you.



So lack of an external enemy is a problem?


----------



## chilango (Aug 27, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> So lack of an external enemy is a problem?



I think it's more the lack of a connection with, and the absence of, wider class struggles.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2019)

Athos said:


> Rhyddical what would happen to an anarchist woman, who, during the course of a debate about a feminist issue at Bookfair 2020, made a political choice to define her sex by reference to biology (believing that to be the material basis of the oppression of women as a class), in a polite and non-disruptive way, at a point that it's germane to that discussion?



I think the key bit there is "in a polite and non-disruptive way" and I'd hope that someone would highlight that such opinions are often used to discriminate and forward bigotry and said Anarchist women would accept this and the conversation would focus on how overt bigotry is obfuscated by the language we choose to talk about about things.

I don't think I've said it's "clear cut" anywhere but said that Bookfair 2020 is choosing to have no transphobia as a protective policy.

Given the ALF example I think you'd understand that if said Anarchist women was also stood on side and fighting against bigotry from the "anti trans" lefties or whatever that would go a very long way, unfortunatly I can't think of many examples of this.

IMO there is a huge differance between between the conversation you suggest here and the reality of how transphobes accost trans positive spaces even when there isn't a  policy in place that says "please don't".


----------



## Athos (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I think the key bit there is "in a polite and non-disruptive way" and I'd hope that someone would highlight that such opinions are often used to discriminate and forward bigotry and said Anarchist women would accept this and the conversation would focus on how overt bigotry is obfuscated by the language we choose to talk about about things.



And if, after that's been explained to her, she acknowledges that some transphobes might use the same language, but that it remains her opinion as an anarchist feminist, and one that's relevant to the discussion (say, single-sex rape shelters)?  By the way, she is absolutely sincere, and bears no ill-will to trans people.  But, by this stage some trans women in the room are beginning to get angry with her, a few going as far as calling her an "ugly TERF", whereas other trans women are interested in her thoughts.  Then what?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 27, 2019)

Say no to transphobia, say no to transwomen are women absolutism.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2019)

Athos said:


> And if, after that's been explained to her, she acknowledges that some transphobes might use the same language, but that it remains her opinion as an anarchist feminist, and one that's relevant to the discussion?  By the way, she is absolutely sincere, and bears no ill-will to trans people.  But, by this stage trans women in the room are beginning to barrack her.  Then what?



I'm not mystic meg mate.

Tho, the collective has already discussed having folk trained in mediation/arbitration on hand and having seperate spaces for difficult conversations.
We've no interest in policing peoples thoughts or conversations, heck even making sure everyone has a nice time and doesn't have any arguments.

I'd be inclined to trust the steward or whatevers decisions and and deal with the ramifications afterwords.

Let's take your example and move it to one lets contentious (here at least).

There is a talk on veganism and and someone sincerly and politely talks about veganism being just middle class kids and how eating meat is natural, They are informed by animal rights activists that it's part of an unethical industrial practice of brutality etc etc. they say they still think eating meat is great But, by this stage an animal rights activist in the room are beginning to barrack her. Then what?

I'd trust the steward, maybe it's the ARA whose acting out of line and not respecting the space, maybe it's clear the anarchist women is actually actually has a butcher and is only here to cause a ruck... idk... like all things context is key.

Least to say, we are not as IdPol liberal blah blah as you might suggest and to manufacture another imaginary scenario is someone is misgendered accidentally then kicks right off, gets abusive even a steward might say it is them not respecting the space or being intolerant of mistakes and ask them to move on.

Despite how some might want to present it, no one thinks all trans people are always right and it's the trans show and everyone must obey the trans people OR ELSE.

Thats bullshit. Like any community, Trans people are diverse in nature and those who don't respect the space idk by kicking off with hunt sabs for no reason or stealing books will be told to fuck off too.


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## Athos (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I'm not mystic meg mate.
> 
> Tho, the collective has already discussed having folk trained in mediation/arbitration on hand and having seperate spaces for difficult conversations.
> We've no interest in policing peoples thoughts or conversations, heck even making sure everyone has a nice time and doesn't have any arguments.
> ...



You haven't really answered the question (rather, you've partially answered a somewhat analogous one).  In the circumstances I gave, what would you do if you were facilitating that session in which the anarchist woman calmly and non-confrontationaly expressed her (admittedly controversial) view that trans women aren't women (and explained why, the reason not being any antipathy towards trans people), because it was directly pertinent to the subject under discussion, and that angered some trans people present?


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2019)

Athos said:


> You haven't really answered the question (but rather partially answered a somewhat analogous one).  In the circumstances I gave, what would you do if you were facilitating that session in which the anarchist woman calmly and non-confrontationaly expressed her (admittedly controversial) view that trans women aren't women, because it was directly pertinent to the subject under discussion?



Ok, so not as Bookfair 2020 policy or to be used as any defined code of conduct but my personal reaction? Say if I was stewarding the workshop or something...... I mean ignoring the 50 million variables that this could be twisted into a HAHA moment in a disengenous debate...

If it's pertinent to the discussion (and for some reason this discussion is in a no transphobia venue) was given in a non distruptive manner with respect to the space and others had responding in due course to highlight the issue with it, I'd ask the imaginary TRA to respect the space and put their issues across within the bracket of the discussion. I'd encourage the workshop to accept the opinion and move on from it rather than waste time circling the same points like it was a U75 thread and carry on to other aspects of the workshop.

I think that is a difficult conversation and those happen, provided there wasn't additional leafleting, waving of "cut the T out of LGBT banners" or a protest, I'd feel it was respectful to the space.
If someone else barraked them, disrespecting the workshop I'd ask them to leave, depending on the situation and whether someone else was there to aid the rest of the workshop I'd go with them and enourage them to talk it through over a cup of tea as given your example it is they who are upset.

I have these conversations with people all the time with people dubious of thew trans equality movement, I'd say 75% of these end up with the revelation of some kind of core issue that may or may not be bigotted(often it is a reactionary attitude that edges on transphobia that is encouraged by outright terfs)  If this example was the nature and manner in which this issue was brought up in our shared spaces there wouldn't be a need for a no transphobia policy.

Unfortunatly it isn't. 

Right now on twitter is full of utterly vile hostility and disgusting bigotry from men/women who would call themselves Anarchist/Communist. 
I'm not sure how we can ask vunerable people to sit down and have a friendly, respectful conversation with people whose starting position is that transwomen are rapists and peadophiles.

You seem keen to focus on the mild mannered of the bunch and I've told you that provided they are resperctful of the space there isn't real issue from us on an organisational level.... at the same time you seem remiss to acknowledge the bulk of the body of transphobes who are up in arms over a no bigotry policy, it is vile, it is nasty, it is utterly unbecoming of comrades and it is nothing more that oppression and hatred.

That is who the no transphobia policy is there for.
Not to pettlefoggle debates or act like the stazi.

People are going to argue and disagree thats life.
Prejudice of the nature that we see each and every time from transphobes tho, won't be tolerated.

I hope thats a bit clearer for you comrade?


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## Athos (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ... provided there wasn't additional leafleting, waving of "cut the T out of LGBT banners" or a protest, I'd feel it was respectful to the space.  If someone else barraked them, disrespecting the workshop I'd ask them to leave, depending on the situation and whether someone else was there to aid the rest of the workshop I'd go with them and enourage them to talk it through over a cup of tea as given your example it is they who are upset.



Sounds reasonable.




Rhyddical said:


> I'm not sure how we can ask vunerable people to sit down and have a friendly, respectful conversation with people whose starting position is that transwomen are rapists and peadophiles.



Nobody here is asking them to do that.




Rhyddical said:


> You seem keen to focus on the mild mannered of the bunch and I've told you that provided they are resperctful of the space there isn't real issue from us on an organisational level.... at the same time you seem remiss to acknowledge the bulk of the body of transphobes who are up in arms over a no bigotry policy, it is vile, it is nasty, it is utterly unbecoming of comrades and it is nothing more that oppression and hatred.



Yes, because no anarchist is seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" is anything but a transphobe, or that they should be given a platform.  Or denying that there's loads of ugly transphobia out there. 




Rhyddical said:


> I hope thats a bit clearer for you comrade?



It is much clearer, thanks.  And enormously more nuanced that some of the stuff that's been put out on your social media, to date.

I'd encourage more of this, and less of the stuff that makes it sound like any anarchist who doesn't share your opinion that trans women are women isn't welcome.


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## LDC (Aug 27, 2019)

Athos said:


> Rhyddical
> For example, what would happen to an anarchist woman, who, during the course of a debate about a feminist issue at Bookfair 2020, made a political choice to define her sex by reference to biology (believing that to be the material basis of the oppression of women as a class), in a polite and non-disruptive way, at a point that it's germane to that discussion?



From what I've seen on more than one occasion they'd be denounced as transphobic and a fascist and probably then thrown out.

And Freedom and others say they'd defend it as it's 'the trans position'.

And largely it's actions and attitudes like that are the cause of nearly all the aggro on this issue.

And yes, that abuse you said you've seen from comrades towards trans people is fucked up too, it's just not what I've seen at all.


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## Athos (Aug 27, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> From what I've seen on more than one occasion they'd be denounced as transphobic and a fascist and probably then thrown out.



That was my initial suspicion, by Rhyddical's recent posts suggest otherwise.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 27, 2019)

Don't speak for what "Freedom says" ta, I try not to do that without getting a general idea of the people in the collective actually think first and I'm a member. I can't imagine you have much real idea about these "others" you mention either. 

In facth honestly I'd rather you left Freedom out of whatever this thing of is yours is entirely, we're a bookshop and small publisher with a news site and a perspective you happen to disagree with, not the hub of all matters trans and/or idpol. If you're going to have hysterics about the bookfair have them about the bookfair rather than swerving ever further off topic.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> From what I've seen on more than one occasion they'd be denounced as transphobic and a fascist and probably then thrown out.



Well like I say several times this form of polite discourse is rare.indeed 100% of the time, in my experiance when people have entered a trans welcoming space to put across the Gender Critical arguments they have been nothing like our fictional discourse here.
It has been overtly on a deeply bigotted position that they insist isn't transphobic.

They are then appalled when someone who has watched their sisters and brothers be abused, beaten or even killed/driven to suicide for years upon years reacts in a hostile manner to them as they spout dogwhistles and politely call for the social undermining of the enter trans community.

I 100% understand why people do react by getting aggy and using words like fascist (albeit no more accurate than calling Farage a "nazi")... 

Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces. Infact thats the situation right now with the rape crisis centre on twitter and thats the entire issue with what happened in 2017, people were literally sharing that on leaflets and others chose to defend their place and right to share it (and later echo this sentiment and spew various catch phrases and dogwhistles) .... the nuance over "your definition of transphobia" is itself an obfuscation often used by these bigots to blur the issue and try to push the idea that those who are against bigotry are the real bigots/fascists/police etc etc and yeah I'd say thats happened on the thread accidentally and deliberatly.

I hope now we have an understanding of our more Anarchistic, ad hoc and contextually appropriate approach to dealing with bigotry within our spaces both from Bookfair 2020 and me personally...

Is there any other aspect of the UK's largest Anarchist event you'd like to know about?


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## Red Sky (Aug 27, 2019)

The history of trans activists entering GC spaces hasn't exactly been pretty.


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## Red Sky (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Well like I say several times this form of polite discourse is rare.indeed 100% of the time, in my experiance when people have entered a trans welcoming space to put across the Gender Critical arguments they have been nothing like our fictional discourse here.
> It has been overtly on a deeply bigotted position that they insist isn't transphobic.
> 
> They are then appalled when someone who has watched their sisters and brothers be abused, beaten or even killed/driven to suicide for years upon years reacts in a hostile manner to them as they spout dogwhistles and politely call for the social undermining of the enter trans community.
> ...



Where was it said that "All trans women are rapists"?


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## Athos (Aug 27, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.



Which anarchists are arguing that? Who are the people they're saying should be welcome?  And where have those people said all "trans women are rapists"?

Because I think you're stretching the truth, with reference to Helen Steel.  Her* leaflets didn't call trans women rapists; they likened the erosion of women's freedom to assert their own boundaries to 'rape culture', which is something quite different (and I say that even as someone who's criticised the leaflets' contents).

You undermine your position by repeatedly being so casual with the truth.

ETA: *Should have said the leaflets handed out by women she defended.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

I could link you a great number of tweets, facebook posts and leaflets that equate trans women with rapists (I even shared one in a previous comment from this twittwer post Twitter. It's what's happening [deleteme]/DevonRapeCrisis/status/1164568521336115200) but I suspect you would negate it by saying it's a one off / cherry picking etc. Sadly it's a very very common theme to transphobes use and if you don't see it you clearly arn't paying attention. Google it, read the appalling shit that is said, including and supported by popular groups.

At London Bookfair 2017 as I recall there were three leaflets.

The one from Mayday for women that equated it to rape culture as you say and it a massiv e dogwhistle for "trans women are rapists" // and you wont be able to name them

The was the "erasure one" some one had printed  and left in the toilets and there was the bi fold one that had the pictures and names of various trans women who were in prison and stuff for rape, it misgendered them as men and talkabout about how women were put at risk for trans rights etc etc.

I'm fairly sure helen didnt hand any out, but defended the rights of the women sharing certainly the first one, tho I suspect the others two on the same basis, IDK you'd have to ask her.

I am not being casual with the truth.
There is nothing casual about it.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 28, 2019)

I thought we'd reached an agreement, on here at least, that we wouldn’t base any argument on the worst behaviours of any side. I realise that you perhaps didn’t get that memo but I’d be surprised if you weren’t in touch with some that did.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

I am memo less.

anyways it does seem like we have an accord of what a no bigotry policy means both as a banner call and a little more nuance.


So anyways genuine question, thinking if we do have a second day we could base it around workshops, maybe have union training sessions or skillset sharing / legal obs traing, organiser training etc and the like thinking is that a one day bookfair can be a bit packed and these kind of things are often rushed.... what do you all reckon of that kind of thing?


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## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I could link you a great number of tweets, facebook posts and leaflets that equate trans women with rapists (I even shared one in a previous comment from this twittwer post Twitter. It's what's happening [deleteme]/DevonRapeCrisis/status/1164568521336115200) but I suspect you would negate it by saying it's a one off / cherry picking etc. Sadly it's a very very common theme to transphobes use and if you don't see it you clearly arn't paying attention. Google it, read the appalling shit that is said, including and supported by popular groups.
> 
> At London Bookfair 2017 as I recall there were three leaflets.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but there's a massive difference between the fact there are some transphobes on Twitter who say that all trans women are rapists, and what you originally claimed i.e.



Rhyddical said:


> Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.



I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any.


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## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ... there was the bi fold one that had the pictures and names of various trans women who were in prison and stuff for rape, it misgendered them as men and talkabout about how women were put at risk for trans rights etc etc.



I don't particularly like the leaflets, but can you see why it's problematic to many women that you seem more worried about convicted rapists' rights to their preferred pronoun, rather than women's right to discuss the indisputable facts that some trans women are rapists and housing them in women's prisons might place other women at risk?


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## Red Cat (Aug 28, 2019)

The actual issue as described in the leaflets doesn't need to be addressed if it's understood as a dog whistle. It's a focus on perceived process rather than content, the content viewed as simply offering various pegs to hang transphobia on. And that's where things get stuck, I think, it's like having a conversation where you think you understand the language, the words seem the same, it all seems familiar, but nothing makes sense.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2019)

can i suggest this as an alternative leaflet?


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## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> The actual issue as described in the leaflets doesn't need to be addressed if it's understood as a dog whistle. It's a focus on perceived process rather than content, the content viewed as simply offering various pegs to hang transphobia on. And that's where things get stuck, I think, it's like having a conversation where you think you understand the language, the words seem the same, it all seems familiar, but nothing makes sense.



Of course, the same comments could be used by some to express their sincere and legitimate concerns, and by others as a dog whistle.  So we need something less crude than "trans women are women" absolutism to distinguish between them. Maybe a look at someone's broader politics. Because it seems to me that if a 'family values' Tory is saying that that's a good chance he's using it as cover for bigotry (and I can see why you'd want to shut that down), whereas if it's coming from a woman with long history of sound politics, is less likely that she's suddenly become a bigot on this one issue (such that maybe we should listen to her, even if we don't agree).


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## Red Cat (Aug 28, 2019)

I don't really want to get into the specific issue of the leaflets and Helen Steel. I've been to the book fair once, or twice, I'm not an anarchist (or anything else really), I think about going most years but haven't been again, I don't live in London, so it's not my scene. 

But it strikes me that conversations happening on different levels aren't going to meet in the middle. I don't know how you unstick that.


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## LDC (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> So anyways genuine question, thinking if we do have a second day we could base it around workshops, maybe have union training sessions or skillset sharing / legal obs traing, organiser training etc and the like thinking is that a one day bookfair can be a bit packed and these kind of things are often rushed.... what do you all reckon of that kind of thing?



I think that _might_ be great. It has been done before a number of times, although usually as a separate event rather than attached to the Bookfair. It strikes me as a massive amount of work though, and would need quite tight regulating to stop it just being a mess of shit workshops all on the more campaigning end of anarchist activism.

Personally I'd be up for a 2 day discussion where we all get locked in a room to try and answer the question 'Is what we're doing any use, if not why not, and what should we do about it?' Boxing gloves optional.


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## chilango (Aug 28, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> I've been to the book fair once, or twice, I'm not an anarchist (or anything else really), I think about going most years but haven't been again, I don't live in London, so it's not my scene.
> .



And that is _exactly_ it.

The Bookfair should be the one event that people like you, and me, where we get a chance to connect with the Anarchist movement. 

But for those of us outside of London, and/or outside the scene, it can be a big "effort" to attend the Bookfair.

It'll cost me £25 or so to get there. That's not counting beer/book money.

It's a full day out and away from my family.

So you - the organizers Rhyddical  - really need to focus outwards at all the sympathetic people out here that could get a lot out of the Bookfair. 

Aim your energies at us. Not the latest twitter/Tumblr outrage.

It's a big ask for many of us to come. 

On that note...


Two days just isn't doable.
Please don't do it on a half-term weekend, that's family time.

Ta.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2019)

London's Bookfair isn't the only one there is. Whilst outreach and networking is important it is also impossible for it to be all things to all people.

With that in mind. Do those who don't live in London attend any of the other regional bookfairs?

If so, how do they compare?

The 2019 Anarchist Bookfairs List


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## Rob Ray (Aug 28, 2019)

They vary widely (sometimes from year to year). Edinburgh has a reputation for being very well organised, Nottingham's usually reasonably good as it's linked to Fiveleaves. When Bradford happens (intermittently) it's sort of 1in12 shaped . When Newcastle happens it's usually pretty good (not least because PM/Active have a base there), but I think their limited resources have been leaning towards the Star and Shadow rebuild for a while. Liverpool I don't know so much about.

Manchester and Bristol (neither happening this year) are the two other biggish events in Britain, then there's a bundle of relative tinies like Dorset, Norwich and Cambridge which come and go and depend heavily on who the organisers are.


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## chilango (Aug 28, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> London's Bookfair isn't the only one there is. Whilst outreach and networking is important it is also impossible for it to be all things to all people.
> 
> With that in mind. Do those who don't live in London attend any of the other regional bookfairs?
> 
> ...



London is my "nearest".


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> London is my "nearest".



Fair enough. The comment wasn't just aimed at you specifically, it was more a general thought about _responsibility_, _reach_ and _expectations_.


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## crossthebreeze (Aug 28, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> They vary widely (sometimes from year to year). Edinburgh has a reputation for being very well organised, Nottingham's usually reasonably good as it's linked to Fiveleaves. When Bradford happens (intermittently) it's sort of 1in12 shaped . When Newcastle happens it's usually pretty good (not least because PM/Active have a base there), but I think their limited resources have been leaning towards the Star and Shadow rebuild for a while. Liverpool I don't know so much about.
> 
> Manchester and Bristol (neither happening this year) are the two other biggish events in Britain, then there's a bundle of relative tinies like Dorset, Norwich and Cambridge which come and go and depend heavily on who the organisers are.


Something should be happening in Newcastle next year (but almost certainly different to what's happened before, and in memory of a comrade who recently died) - proper announcements will be forthcoming.


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## chilango (Aug 28, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Fair enough. The comment wasn't just aimed at you specifically, it was more a general thought about _responsibility_, _reach_ and _expectations_.



Yeah. I understand.

I'd respond that - partially at least - those in the movement with access to resources (groups, comrades, infrastructure etc.) have a greater responsibility than isolated anarchists or fellow travellers for "outreach" and using events such as the Bookfair as a tool for supporting those isolated to get a sense of being part of a bigger movement.


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## LDC (Aug 28, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Fair enough. The comment wasn't just aimed at you specifically, it was more a general thought about _responsibility_, _reach_ and _expectations_.



The London one is, like it or not, more of a 'national event' and acts as much more for the anarchist movement than just a bookfair. IME regional ones have their own flavor (often more counter cultural/punk/campaigning activism/'DIY culture' focused) and I have always found them much less interesting and useful generally.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I understand.
> 
> I'd respond that - partially at least - those in the movement with access to resources (groups, comrades, infrastructure etc.) have a greater responsibility than isolated anarchists or fellow travellers for "outreach" and using events such as the Bookfair as a tool for supporting those isolated to get a sense of being part of a bigger movement.




Sounds reasonable and with the London one seeming to have more of a 'national' focus I can see why so expectations are high.

I do though also think that regional/localised stuff is just as important. And in fact, trying _new_ things and/or getting involved can be less complicated IYSWIM. My hope is that anyone feeling 'isolated' is also doing what they can to address that and putting themselves 'out there' where possible.


Rhyddical You must be exhausted with all this effort you are putting in to engage/discuss/explain etc. I noticed you said you are having parallel conversations on other SM platforms as well. On top of any work you may be doing, and the actual thinking and organising stuff. All power to you.

How did you find this thread on Urban btw? Google search? Tip off from a comrade/contact? Or was Urban already on your radar?


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## smokedout (Aug 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Two days just isn't doable.
> Please don't do it on a half-term weekend, that's family time.



I agree with this.  Two days might be something to work up to in time as the event and organising group grows, but having been involved in a lot of events myself I'd recommend keeping it as simple as possible first time round.  The things that will end up causing the most shit and taking the most time you probably haven't even thought of yet, just getting the thing off the ground is a huge task, don't make it harder for yourselves


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## danny la rouge (Aug 28, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> how do they compare?


I can’t compare with London as I’ve never been. But I’ve been to both Edinburgh and Glasgow. Edinburgh is better. As Rob Ray says it’s better organised.  

Agree with chilango ’s points about isolation etc.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

*"I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any."*

Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.

If you don't see anyone arguing in favour over very horrible stuff (in the activist scene in general), you live in a better bubble than mine pal x
*
"you seem more worried about convicted rapists' rights to their preferred pronoun, rather than women's right to discuss"
*
That is utter disengenous tosh*. *You can't possible be so niave as to believe that transphobes handing out leaflets saying "look at these sexual predators who just happen to be trans" doesn't develop the idea that trans women = rapists. We had this shit with "look at these gays who are peadophiles...now I'm not saying all gays are peodos, heck my mates gay, but do you really want a gay teaching your little boy?"*,* that kind of symantics "not transphobia just concerns" are nothing but smoke screewns for bigotry.

I'm done with your merry go round, I think we understand each other quite well.



*re; Two days.*
Those are some really valid points and I'll bring them to the crew next we meet  Right now it was a VERY loose idea which would mean London locals would have a second day of networking and skill sharing  while everyone was in town, however it does mean a significant leap in many peoples expenses for some and make others feel like they have missed out so yeah, will discuss!


*How did you find Urban 75*
I've seen the forum  here and there but never made an account. In this instance a friend shared the thread with me with an eye roll (about 3/6 pages in) and advised me to just leave it lol. Probably a good piece of advise but to be honest I believe in dealing with conflict head one. My real focus was less on the no transphobia policy which we've spent 10 pages on now and more addressing the early misgiving about who the fuck this new collective were and concerns that we were a buch of wet liberals who were going to make a right tits up of it and invite all manner of trash and pat our middle class backs. I think we got that sorted out tho once we identified me as a Northern bastard (who may or may not look sexy in high vis) haha
*
Other Bookfairs.*
To be honest I thing the regional bookfairs are more important for the "scene", they need much more support than they get and If Bookfair 2020 goes down well we'll be looking to  send funds onwards no doubt, especially the new ones like Newcastle and Dundee. I personally hate how it's all eyes on London all the fucking time and we need more "local stuff". Tho London does have a huge population so needs it's own bookfair in my mind, if we were really on it , we'd have a dozen smaller affairs in areas through out the year and every city would have atleast one. Mind you, having one big as a national event one does mean we get to put on a lot of stuff at the same time that otherwise wouldn't happen so I guess there is that (let alon the international stuff that smaller bookfairs wouldn't be able to do) tho in my head I think it'd do better if it toured the capitals? idk just an idle thought right now, probably a million problems with that.


Comrades who I organise with helped put on Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Edinburgh bookfairs and we're taking advice and seeking their support. I suspect they'll be actively involved in the 6 month prior to Bookfair 2020.


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## TopCat (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> *"I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any."*
> 
> Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.
> 
> ...


Can you specify who you are quoting in bold please?


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## Serge Forward (Aug 28, 2019)

I'll be at the Notts one. Sheffield used to be dead good but alas, tis no more


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## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2019)

Are all these events going to abide by the same policy  re transwomen?


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## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.



You haven't provided a single example of what you claimed is happening i.e. '"anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.'

Undoubtedly, some people on Twitter are saying those things, but that's not the same as an anarchists arguing that people who say those those things are welcome in revolutionary spaces FFS!

You keep doing this; making claims, then not providing any evidence.



Rhyddical said:


> If you don't see anyone arguing in favour over very horrible stuff (in the activist scene in general), you live in a better bubble than mine pal x



I've seen lots of people arguing lots of unpleasant things; I haven't seen '"anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.'  If I did, I'd take issue with it, because it's clearly transphobic.



Rhyddical said:


> You can't possible be so niave as to believe that transphobes handing out leaflets saying "look at these sexual predators who just happen to be trans" doesn't develop the idea that trans women = rapists.



All rapists are biologically male, and some trans women are rapists.  Pointing that out is a world away from saying (or even implying) that all trans women are rapists.   You think it unreasonable that women discuss the possible impact on their safety of the end of single-sex spaces?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> *"I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any."*
> 
> Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.
> 
> ...



You said people were "literally sharing it on leaflets".


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> You said people were "literally sharing it on leaflets".



They did, all three leaflets are available with a quick google.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Can you specify who you are quoting in bold please?



I really can't lol It keep complaining about multiple qoutes lol I will attach names in future tho.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Are all these events going to abide by the same policy  re transwomen?



Every single Anarchist / Radical bookfair in the UK has a no transphobia policy as far as I'm aware.


----------



## chilango (Aug 28, 2019)

Any thoughts on my date request Rhyddical ? I'm surely not the one for whom children make half-term availability problematic?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> They did, all three leaflets are available with a quick google.



That phrase? " All trans women are rapists"?


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> They did, all three leaflets are available with a quick google.



Yes, and nowhere on any if them does it say (or even imply) that all trans women are rapists. Please stop saying things that are demonstrably false.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2019)

/


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

Athos said:


> All rapists are biologically male



Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.

You going to share the the dictionary definition that says "by a man" now?  I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration." but whatever, you do you, I'm tired of repeating the same points. We seem to agree on the nature of transphobia and agree it is bad so I'm happy x


I'm not biting on the leaflet thing, yes it doesn't say "all" well done, you've won the symantics, clearly there is nothing to worry about.

Tommy bobinson doesn't say "all" muslims either, infact he's friends with a muslim fella so he can't possibly be a racist and you can't possibly be this niave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.
> 
> You going to share the the dictionary definition that says "by a man" now?  I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration." but whatever, you do you, I'm tired of repeating the same points. We seem to agree on the nature of transphobia and agree it is bad so I'm happy x


athos has in mind the legal definition of rape, which requires that the perpetrator necessarily be male


----------



## klang (Aug 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> /


at any book fair worth its salt toilet facilities should be available to anybody needing a slash.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.
> 
> You going to share the the dictionary definition that says "by a man" now?  I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration." but whatever, you do you, I'm tired of repeating the same points. We seem to agree on the nature of transphobia and agree it is bad so I'm happy x
> 
> ...



Don't say "literally" if you don't mean it then.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> athos has in mind the legal definition of rape, which requires that the perpetrator necessarily be male



Ah yes, as an Anarchist I always refer to UK Law ;p 

Truly we need to get beyond that daft notion that belongs in yesteryear. It projects women as victims and women are not victims, just like men they declare wars, raise taxes etc etc


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Don't say "literally" if you don't mean it then.



Alright Stanis. My bad.Literally.


----------



## belboid (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Alright Stanis. My bad.Literally.


Stannis


----------



## LDC (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Every single Anarchist / Radical bookfair in the UK has a no transphobia policy as far as I'm aware.



You keep saying this like it's some important point. The point is that this definition of transphobia varies wildly among people, with loads of anarchists having positions that according to some are transphobic, which according to some people makes them fascists and not welcome at the Bookfair.

Likewise you keep referring to groups like Women's Place not having a stall, something nobody here has suggested.

I do appreciate your engaging here about the Bookfair, but sometimes your posts are a bit all over the place and it can be hard to get a handle on exactly what you're saying. Maybe that's working both ways as you seem to repeat things that either haven't been said or have been explained not to be the case so maybe some of us aren't being clear either.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You keep saying this like it's some important point. The point is that this definition of transphobia varies wildly among people, with loads of anarchists having positions that according to some are transphobic, which according to some people makes them fascists and not welcome at the Bookfair.
> 
> Likewise you keep referring to groups like Women's Place not having a stall, something nobody here has suggested.
> 
> I do appreciate your engaging here about the Bookfair, but sometimes your posts are a bit all over the place and it can be hard to get a handle on exactly what you're saying. Maybe that's working both ways as you seem to repeat things that either haven't been said or have been explained not to be the case so maybe some of us aren't being clear either.




It is an important point tho (I think...)
We have agreed a definition of Transphobia here. (pretty much right?)

Who exactly are y'all advocating a platform for that is exluded by the no transphobia policy? (also people have advocated for a Womens Place stall/talk previous to my knowledge)
I've stated several times that anarchists with such concerns who respect the space and the other attendees won't be turfed out, thats not the focus here at all or in anyones definition.

If my posts are all over the place, my apologies... I'm a busy bunny and I pop back here inbetween things. Thats my bad not the Bookfairs x


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.



Ok, don't say 'biologically male', say 'have a penis' instead.  The point's the same.  And you'll still duck it.




Rhyddical said:


> I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration."



Even on your 'definition' the overwhelming majority of rapists would be people with penises; the class of people that some women are concerned about allowing into hitherto single-sex spaces.  But, of course, that's of no concern to you.




Rhyddical said:


> I'm not biting on the leaflet thing, yes it doesn't say "all" well done, you've won the symantics, clearly there is nothing to worry about.



Wow!  Seriously?!  The difference between saying "some trans women are rapists" (a fact) and "all trans women are rapists" (a hateful lie) isn't just semantics, you absolute clown.  (But I'm glad you've conceded that your outlandish claim about the content of the leaflets was false.)




Rhyddical said:


> Tommy bobinson doesn't say "all" muslims either, infact he's friends with a muslim fella so he can't possibly be a racist and you can't possibly be this niave.



To run with your (weak) analogy for a moment.  Robinson is a racist who says things like "mass immigration puts pressure on the school system."  But, there are plenty of parents who aren't racists but have concerns about the impact on their children's education in being in a school where, for the majority of kids, English is a second language.  I know left wing comrades who think that.  To crudely lump them all in the same far right pot as SYL is stupid, dangerous, and deeply counter-productive.  Not least of all because you silence their solutions, which are very different from SYL's e.g. they'd like sufficient resources thrown at English teaching for all kids, funded in part by immigrants' net contribution to taxes!, and leave the field clear for superficially attractive right wing populist 'solutions.'

I can't help but think that the hysterical tone of some of the debate around this subject (fueled by things like the wildly inaccurate claims you've made on this thread) has actually driven some women who were pro-trans, albeit with some reservations, into the arms of hardcore transhobes!


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Truly we need to get beyond that daft notion that belongs in yesteryear. It projects women as victims and women are not victims, just like men they declare wars, raise taxes etc etc



The idea that rape (however you define it) isn't overwhelmingly perpetrated by biological males is stupid and misogynistic.  And the idea that women need to get over that "daft notion" is incredibly crass.


----------



## LDC (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I've stated several times that anarchists with such concerns who respect the space and the other attendees won't be turfed out, thats not the focus here at all or in anyones definition.



I hate to bring this to certain people, but just to be clear... people who have been thrown out of other events are welcome at the Bookfair if they respect the space and other attendees at this event?


----------



## LDC (Aug 28, 2019)

Athos said:


> I can't help but think that the hysterical tone of some of the debate around this subject (fueled by things like the wildly inaccurate claims you've made on this thread) has actually driven some women who were pro-trans, albeit with some reservations, into the arms of hardcore transhobes!



Yes. One of the things I've noticed and is horrible to see is that the way some people (mostly women) have been treated in either wanting to discuss this, or for having different opinions, have ended up with much more extreme positions in this whole thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yes. One of the things I've noticed and is horrible to see is that the way some people (mostly women) have been treated in either wanting to discuss this, or for having different opinions, have ended up with much more extreme positions in this whole thing.


not to mention the way that some women have left the boards because of the way they've been treated, including such long-time posters as frogwoman


----------



## smokedout (Aug 28, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yes. One of the things I've noticed and is horrible to see is that the way some people (mostly women) have been treated in either wanting to discuss this, or for having different opinions, have ended up with much more extreme positions in this whole thing.



I think this is a dubious line to take when those with extreme views are working so hard to radicalise those who might just have a few concerns or questions.  Whilst I accept that the incident at the last bookfair could have been better handled its not trans people's fault that some anarchists are now spreading daft conspiracy theories and interrupting Pride events in the company of rabid transphobes.  Its quite possible to be annoyed by some of the extremities of identity politics, like accusing people of having racist hair, without turning into a massive racist yourself.


----------



## LDC (Aug 28, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I think this is a dubious line to take when those with extreme views are working so hard to radicalise those who might just have a few concerns or questions.  Whilst I accept that the incident at the last bookfair could have been better handled its not trans people's fault that some anarchists are now spreading daft conspiracy theories and interrupting Pride events in the company of rabid transphobes.  Its quite possible to be annoyed by some of the extremities of identity politics, like accusing people of having racist hair, without turning into a massive racist yourself.



It's not an excuse, but it does explain elements of what's been going on, and it's not directly about Helen Steel for example if that's who you're referring to, or even the anarchist scene. I have a friend (nobody connected to the anarchist scene, only vaguely leftie) who works in mental health who in good faith asked at work if transwomen could use women only support groups, who was then reported for transphobia by a colleague.

It got all the way to just before a formal disciplinary hearing after a few months of her being completely upset and worried she was going to lose her job. She left that job soon afterwards, but not surprisingly she's angry and has become much more arsey about the whole issue.

The whole issue is so fucking poisonous I think it's largely gone beyond being able to have a reasonable debate, and as many have said it's partly connected to a wider issue with the way politics has gone the last few years.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Alright Stanis. My bad.Literally.



Is that a Game of thrones thing?

It's important because it says a lot about how this debate/row has been conducted. It didn't bother you at all to lie about the contents of those leaflets.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 28, 2019)




----------



## Red Sky (Aug 28, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


>




Peter Stringfellow's Lord of the Rings


----------



## smokedout (Aug 28, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Is that a Game of thrones thing?
> 
> It's important because it says a lot about how this debate/row has been conducted. It didn't bother you at all to lie about the contents of those leaflets.



Yeah I think it's important to be accurate about this stuff.  And the main problem with that leaflet, and other propaganda being distributed at the same time, was not the lurid snarl about trans rights being rape culture but that it lied about what was being proposed.  It presented all the recommendations of the (cross party) Women's and Equality Commitee report as "new Tory laws" that were imminently about to be introduced, despite the fact many of them had already been rejected by the government in response to the Transgender Inquiry.  It was this scare mongoring that really led to anti-trans sentiment exploding, and along with it the erroneus belief that Self ID has anything to do with access to womens spaces - which it doesn't, as now confirmed by EHRC, the Government themselves and most recently Karon Monaghan QC, a leading feminist equalities lawyer giving evidence in the recent Equalities Act inquiry.

So it's important to tell the truth because by the time it all gets unravelled it may be too late.


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

smokedout said:


> ... it lied about what was being proposed.  It presented all the recommendations of the (cross party) Women's and Equality Commitee report as "new Tory laws"...



It was bought about by Tory minister (and opponent of same sex-marriage)  Nicky Morgan MP.




smokedout said:


> ... despite the fact many of them had already been rejected by the government in response to the Transgender Inquiry.



Many of the committee's more controversial proposals hadn't been rejected outright. Rather they were explicitly left up for review in the future i.e. very much up for grabs (and something people are actively lobbying for, now).  (I've quoted the relevant sections when you've tried to peddle this falsehood on another thread, for anyone who's interested.)




smokedout said:


> ... the erroneus belief that Self ID has anything to do with access to womens spaces - which it doesn't, as now confirmed by EHRC, the Government themselves and most recently Karon Monaghan QC, a leading feminist equalities lawyer giving evidence in the recent Equalities Act inquiry.



Typically, you've misrepresented the totality Karon's evidence.   See para 173 here.




smokedout said:


> So it's important to tell the truth...


----------



## smokedout (Aug 28, 2019)

> You are ignoring content by this member.



That will be athos creepily and obssesively replying to my posts like he does despite knowing he's been on ignore for a year and he will be insisting that the government is going to do things it has repeatedly said it has no intention of doing and which look even less likely than ever to come to pass and insisting his legal brain outtrumps the wide range of expert opinion that has confirmed self ID will not impact on womens spaces.


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

smokedout said:


> That will be athos creepily and obssesively replying to my posts like he does despite knowing he's been on ignore for a year and he will be insisting that the government is going to do things it has repeatedly said it has no intention of doing and which look even less likely than ever to come to pass and insisting his legal brain outtrumps the wide range of expert opinion that has confirmed self ID will not impact on womens spaces.



Lol.  That'll be Smokescreen creating a strawman because they can't engage honestly.  For instance by completely ignoring part of the evidence given by the QC they quoted, which mentioned a "chilling effect" on women's organisations' willingness to invoke the single sex exemption!


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

Athos said:


> The idea that rape (however you define it) isn't overwhelmingly perpetrated by biological males is stupid and misogynistic.  And the idea that women need to get over that "daft notion" is incredibly crass.



In a list of things I never said but you invented this is #43


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> In a list of things I never said but you invented this is #43



Mate, it's there for everyone to see, as are your repeated falsehoods on this thread (some you've subsequently admitted).


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 28, 2019)

smokedout said:


> That will be athos creepily and obssesively replying to my posts like he does despite knowing he's been on ignore for a year and he will be insisting that the government is going to do things it has repeatedly said it has no intention of doing and which look even less likely than ever to come to pass and insisting his legal brain outtrumps the wide range of expert opinion that has confirmed self ID will not impact on womens spaces.



Athos is the only poster I've bothered putting on ignore over his endless bad faith arguing, and can't say I feel like I'm missing much.


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Athos is the only poster I've bothered putting on ignore over his endless bad faith arguing, and can't say I feel like I'm missing much.



It's funny how people who can't rebut an argument resort to claiming it's made in bad faith, or, even more pathetic, putting their fingers in their ears and shouting 'la, la, la, I can't hear you.'


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 28, 2019)

Athos said:


> It's funny how people who can't rebut an argument resort to claiming it's made in bad faith, or, even more pathetic, putting their fingers in their ears and shouting 'la, la, la, I can't hear you.'


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 182381



He's an amateur; I don't need a second person.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 28, 2019)

Athos said:


> He's an amateur; I don't need a second person.



Well be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Athos (Aug 28, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 28, 2019)

> Athos is the only poster I've bothered putting on ignore over his endless bad faith arguing, and can't say I feel like I'm missing much.


Wait...thats an option!?! ;p

Athos... please point out to me where I said  "that rape isn't overwhelmingly perpetrated by biological males" if it is "there for everyone to see"

I mean you were on a better track with your trolling with the whole pettyfollging over what "transphobia is"... come on, you can do better than making stuff up.

I believe in you.

I mean like from your attitude it's almost like your entire aim is to undermine and distrupt the much needed conversations about Bookfair 2020... I'm not here "for an argument" I don't want a pissing match with you, I've important shit to do, I'm here to talk to comrades about an Anarchistr bookfair in a productive manner.

you wouldn't be such a shitty person as to be commenting purely to undermine comrades organising things would ya?

S H O C K E D


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> London's Bookfair isn't the only one there is. Whilst outreach and networking is important it is also impossible for it to be all things to all people.
> 
> With that in mind. Do those who don't live in London attend any of the other regional bookfairs?
> 
> ...



Birmingham is bizarrely totally appalling for any left-wing politics. Nobody has yet managed to explain this to me, something to do with the dominance of Stalinist trade union leaders, the size of the Council, the sprawled-out nature of Birmingham. It's frustrating, no idea how you get things going here. It's hard to even find out what's on, generally like, music, cinema, family stuff, the information isn't gathered in any one place, it all feels bitty.

eta the students were very active about fees...8 years ago? There was at least one occupation, there was an attempt to set up a kind of social centre near us, we went along, it was very jazz hands, but everyone was very friendly, however i had a 4 year old and a baby and the premises weren't suitable for them.


----------



## Athos (Aug 29, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Wait...thats an option!?! ;p
> 
> Athos... please point out to me where I said  "that rape isn't overwhelmingly perpetrated by biological males" if it is "there for everyone to see"
> 
> ...



No, I want it to happen, and to be a success.  But I think it's important that it's run on anarchist principles, for all anarchists.  Surely, as an anarchist, you don't object to your power being held to account?

Running the bookfair is a difficult task, that requires some thoughtful positions, with a bit of nuance. Frankly, I'm a concerned that someone who thinks the difference between "some" and "all" is semantics might not be up to the job. But, nevertheless, I've already wished you the best of luck with it.

If you didn't mean "that rape isn't overwhelmingly perpetrated by biological males", what did you mean when, in response to Pickman's model saying "... legal definition of rape, which requires that the perpetrator necessarily be male", you said "truly we need to get beyond that daft notion that belongs in yesteryear.   It projects women as victims..."?


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

Athos any chance of putting your argument on hold for a bit so we can move on to other aspects of the bookfair?


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> And that is _exactly_ it.
> 
> The Bookfair should be the one event that people like you, and me, where we get a chance to connect with the Anarchist movement.
> 
> ...



For me, I find it hard to take seriously any politics that doesn't have the politics of the family as part of its core thinking/analysis, not some added on extra. What I appreciated about the bookfair I attended was that there was space for the kids, R really enjoyed it, H was a baby and came with me to a meeting. In the past, we'd have wanted to go as a family, half-term would actually have been better for us for that reason, and we'd have stayed with my partner's parents in London, we'd have made it part of a holiday, but that's no longer possible due to illness.


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

The last place I'd take my family is the Anarchist Bookfair.



That's really sad, and indicative of the massive task facing both the Bookfair and the movement more generally.


----------



## Athos (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Athos any chance of putting your argument on hold for a bit so we can move on to other aspects of the bookfair?



As soon as people (Rhyddical) want to drop this aspect, I will; for some time note my posts have been limited to reactions to others' e.g. to answer questions or rebut false claims.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> The last place I'd take my family is the Anarchist Bookfair.
> 
> 
> 
> That's really sad, and indicative of the massive task facing both the Bookfair and the movement more generally.



It is. It's not an option now and the children would complain anyway...although didn't there used to be meetings for teenagers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> It is. It's not an option now and the children would complain anyway...although didn't there used to be meetings for teenagers?


There used to be a creche if memory serves


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There used to be a creche if memory serves



There did.

But that's not really the point.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> The last place I'd take my family is the Anarchist Bookfair.
> 
> 
> 
> That's really sad, and indicative of the massive task facing both the Bookfair and the movement more generally.


I’d be comfortable taking my kids to the Edinburgh event. Not that they’d come anyway. But it’s a sad indication if people aren’t comfortable taking their kids along.


----------



## Athos (Aug 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’d be comfortable taking my kids to the Edinburgh event. Not that they’d come anyway. But it’s a sad indication if people aren’t comfortable taking their kids along.


Aren't yours a bit older, Danny?


----------



## Athos (Aug 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There used to be a creche if memory serves



There's one for next year.  But I think the issue is more than that.


----------



## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

It's partly not comfortable, and partly that they'd be really bored.

Both aspects are problematic.

I'm thinking back now across the decades to try and recall stuff that my family could)would go to.

The Zapatistas did some stuff. I didn't have a child at the time, but they ran a pretty cool kids club thing at our local market in Mexico City that I would've been happy to take my daughter too whilst I had a chat with them. My wife was also happy to come along to Zapatista stuff with me.

Some of the social centres in Italy, and the remnants of the PCI equivalents - the Arcobalenas iirc - felt quite inclusive and would be "normal" (wrong word, but I have not had my coffee yet) to visit.

I can't put my finger on it, but it's a real barrier for me. It means that my political engagement with Anarchism/ists is a "hobby of mine" separate from any workplace/community activity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2019)

Athos said:


> There's one for next year.  But I think the issue is more than that.


sometimes i am not trying to answer 'more than that' but adding in a little bit where i can.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 29, 2019)

Athos said:


> Aren't yours a bit older, Danny?


Yes, they’re both grown women now. 19 and 23.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's partly not comfortable, and partly that they'd be really bored.
> 
> Both aspects are problematic.
> 
> ...



They'd be bored now, yes. I went twice I think, R was a baby in a sling, the second time she was 4 and enjoyed the creche as she enjoyed most things then and dancing with her dad to a band playing outside, H was then a few months old, in a sling. Now she's a sulky pre-teen and would be really pissed off, and H has never been tolerant of not being able to play loudly and boisterously when and where she wants, and couldn't be arsed with crafts 

Italy has a history of including children as part of political activity...thinking the beginnings of Reggio Emilia rather than anything more current. What became very apparent to me when I had my first child was the conflict between the rights and needs of mothers and the rights and needs of the child, and how interesting it is that this doesn't really feature as an example of rights coming into conflict, because of course children have no power, so it's a private conflict.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> There did.
> 
> But that's not really the point.


it might not be *the point* but my point was (and apols for not making it more explicit) that attempts have been made to make it a more family-oriented place, which i hope worked. however, while most of the bookfair's attendees both people and organisations retain a refreshing degree of sanity there's been an unfortunate tendency over the past decade for some frankly peculiar disputes to replace the in retrospect preferable personal animosities which for many years provided a degree of light relief and entertainment. it's this, i think, this move from readily comprehensible and short-lived episodes of violence or something that passed for violence to a situation in which the anarchist bookfair became the backdrop for an unanarchist campaign to provoke transpeople. an unanarchist campaign, because there is to my mind nothing anarchist about urging people to write to their mp and take part in a parliamentary consultation. it's the atmosphere which this engendered, this engineered confrontation, which i feel puts people off - not simply people no longer happy to bring children, but also people who'd have come along on their own to meet friends, people curious about anarchism and even people who live breathe and eat anarchism.


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 29, 2019)

The creche in the 1990s was a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The creche in the 1990s was a disaster waiting to happen.



How come?


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 29, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> How come?



I only had an actual stand at the bookfair twice, when it was at Conway Hall. I think both times I shared it with other people.

On one of these occasions there was an arrangement where the creche would be staffed by volunteers from the stalls and my co-stallist volunteered (he had kids) but then had to be elsewhere. So I ended up doing it and was fucking clueless.

The creche was in a depressing room upstairs in Conway Hall. There was one or maybe two kids who were there and some crappy bits of cardboard and crayons and coloured paper etc. The kids were bored and one of them insisted on leaving because of this. I was reluctant to let them do that but also reluctant to enforce this physically for obvious reasons. I can't remember how old they were but certainly not a teenager.

Eventually someone else wandered in and took over who seemed much better at it - I later learned that they were a teacher.

I have reflected on this a great deal since and am properly disturbed that random loons from the anarchist movement would be lookin after children.

But perhaps that was a one off, I don't know.

Around that time there was a group called something like the "love and sexual freedom movement" who were allied to Green Anarchist and were quite keen on the dodgier aspects of debates around the age of consent in the US-based _Anarchy - A Journal of Desire Armed_ magazine. I have no idea if they were let anywhere near the creche.

To be fair, the creche became a tonne more professional after that and they brought in people who were CRB checked etc. I wouldn't take my child there but it looked a lot better when I wandered past occasionally.


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## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

Hopefully Rhyddical can contribute to the latest bits of the discussion. I'd be interested in hearing their take.


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## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

It also occurs to me, that I should, and indeed could,  make my own contribution to making the Bookfair and/or the wider movement more family friendly.

I have the necessary skills and experience.

...but we come full circle.

How can I do that when I'm physically, politically and socially isolated, alienated and apart from the movement as it stands?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> It also occurs to me, that I should, and indeed could,  make my own contribution to making the Bookfair and/or the wider movement more family friendly.
> 
> I have the necessary skills and experience.
> 
> ...


maybe you could do something at an event nearer where you live, with people you know (and trust and like)?


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## Serge Forward (Aug 29, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I only had an actual stand at the bookfair twice, when it was at Conway Hall. I think both times I shared it with other people.
> 
> On one of these occasions there was an arrangement where the creche would be staffed by volunteers from the stalls and my co-stallist volunteered (he had kids) but then had to be elsewhere. So I ended up doing it and was fucking clueless.
> 
> ...


Indeed. I took a look in when my oldest was a nipper. Walked straight out as no way was i leaving the bin lid with that set up. Later it did get professional, organised by people who knew their onions. Though my lad didnt fancy being in with the little uns at that stage.


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## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I only had an actual stand at the bookfair twice, when it was at Conway Hall. I think both times I shared it with other people.
> 
> On one of these occasions there was an arrangement where the creche would be staffed by volunteers from the stalls and my co-stallist volunteered (he had kids) but then had to be elsewhere. So I ended up doing it and was fucking clueless.
> 
> ...



I don't think I left my daughter there, she was too young to be left with strangers, but there was a worker or two and other parents, it seemed fine, if basic. It was 2011. 

I found becoming a mother very politicising...it really brought me back to thinking about social organisation and what aids growth and what hinders it, and I found it really frustrating that thinking about childhood and alternative pedagogies etc. seemed to be restricted to things like Steiner schools and play groups. 

The eldest is now nearly a teenager and the youngest is 8, and I've been working again for years, so these interests have moved into the background as other things take centre ground.


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## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe you could do something at an event nearer where you live, with people you know (and trust and like)?



Sadly there's nothing that I'm aware of nearer.

I don't know (irl) any anarchists (or fellow travellers) here now. Or indeed in a broader sense anyone with even vaguely similar perspectives.


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## smokedout (Aug 29, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Indeed. I took a look in when my oldest was a nipper. Walked straight out as no way was i leaving the bin lid with that set up. Later it did get professional, organised by people who knew their onions. Though my lad didnt fancy being in with the little uns at that stage.



My kid looked at me with such withering contempt when I tried to leave him in the creche for an hour or so the first time at Queen Mary's that we had to spend the day amassing a huge sticker collection.  Randomly appearing Fuck Starbucks stickers formed quite a bg part of my life for the next few years.


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## Red Sky (Aug 29, 2019)

I remember my little one pulling the SolFed stall over. "I'll show you some anarchy"


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## klang (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> How can I do that when I'm physically, politically and socially isolated, alienated and apart from the movement as it stands?


Yes, I know what you're saying.
I, too, would like to get more involved and have knowledge and pro experience in subjects around inclusion that I think are overlooked and desperately need addressing. But I'm so out of the loop.
Back in the Conway Hall days we were a little group who made the most of the book fair. We attended workshops, discussed stuff, applied tactics to the aims of our groups, etc etc.
After a few years the group fell apart, and I did a few book fairs on my own. Which was fine and interesting, but also aimless and frankly a bit boring. One has to be a very extrovert and outgoing person to easily break into a different gang at the fair. That was my experience anyway. (Not to say people weren't welcoming and open to lonely strangers, but still, it's hard to take part in relationships that have been formed over many years).

These days I'm very busy most of the time, and don't have time, recourses, or the right circle of friends to start something new that would explore my interests and expertise. Maybe it's a cheap and boring excuse, because time can be found for things we are passionate about, but that's where I am atm.
I'm still doing a lot of work around community relationships and inclusion, so I'm not just sitting on my arse, but finding the time and people to start something on a more radical level doesn't seem possible atm.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2019)

Given that there are a few Urbs on this thread that are saying the same thing about isolation, lack of time to find new _comrade circles_ and the like why not try and get a little group started with people from here? You can take it to PM or start a new dedicated thread, discuss expectations, share info about events, meet up when/where possible, put on your own talks/workshops/have stalls...it could be as formal or informal as you like...serious suggestion.


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 29, 2019)

I went to a Socialism once (the SPs equivelent of Marxism) where somebody had dragged their pre teen kids along. Really felt bad for them, two hour sessions on lessons of the fourth international or whatever without the anaesthetic of getting a bit pissed can't have been fun


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## klang (Aug 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I went to a Socialism once (the SPs equivelent of Marxism) where somebody had dragged their pre teen kids along. Really felt bad for them, two hour sessions on lessons of the fourth international or whatever without the anaesthetic of getting a bit pissed can't have been fun


yes, nothing worse than being sober as a pre teen.


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## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I went to a Socialism once (the SPs equivelent of Marxism) where somebody had dragged their pre teen kids along. Really felt bad for them, two hour sessions on lessons of the fourth international or whatever without the anaesthetic of getting a bit pissed can't have been fun



Marxism had quite well organised childcare, there were some professionals and those without children who were there for the week were expected to give a morning or afternoon to the creche or take them out to Coram Fields park. I did it a few times.


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## chilango (Aug 29, 2019)

...I think we need something more than "childcare" where the kids can be dumped whilst we get on with the work of being all revolutionary.

It oughta be just as much for them as for us.

Otherwise it's a day pursuing either work or a hobby.

We need to rethink - as Red Cat says above - how children, and family, and maybe even "emotional labour" fit into all of this.


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## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...I think we need something more than "childcare" where the kids can be dumped whilst we get on with the work of being all revolutionary.
> 
> It oughta be just as much for them as for us.
> 
> ...



I agree, more than childcare, and integrated, but it's hard when it's not developing organically from what is already happening.

Anyway, I feel a bit of an imposter/intruder on here given that I won't be going to the bookfair in the near future, am not connected with any similar organisations, and right now find it very hard to believe in any kind of social change, which makes it all a bit academic.

Thanks for tagging me though chilango


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## Rhyddical (Aug 29, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> For me, I find it hard to take seriously any politics that doesn't have the politics of the family as part of its core thinking/analysis, not some added on extra. What I appreciated about the bookfair I attended was that there was space for the kids, R really enjoyed it, H was a baby and came with me to a meeting. In the past, we'd have wanted to go as a family, half-term would actually have been better for us for that reason, and we'd have stayed with my partner's parents in London, we'd have made it part of a holiday, but that's no longer possible due to illness.



One of our fundamental tenants or whatever of organising is to make it inclusive.
We will be providing Creche space and hopefully some kind of play area for older kids, both of which will be supervised by people who know what they are doing ie they will be paid  staff or (hopefully) comrades who work in child care who are volunteering their time.

This will be the minimum, and I hope we bring a lot more to the table.

I find it a huge problem that families and bookfairs don't mix, heck even that rebellious teens and bookfairs don't mix (like wtf), Manchester and Edinburgh both had a really positive space that children were free to wonder aroung, I don't know it was the more open layouts or venue itself but they were very family friendly and the kids had a great time doing crafty things and talking to people and stuff. We're very geared towards replicating that and I personally will be doing my best to include additional activities aimed specifically at kids, whether or not they are dragging parents in tow or on their bill. This should go way beyond a space to dump the kids, the nippers ain't baggage, they are a part of our community and should be a welcome addition, right up the point where nine year olds are sitting in on workshops and sharing ideas and they are respected.

I would say providing space for pre-teens/teenages has always been the difficult one as they are usually either off on their own, bored to tears or attached to a parent being dragged around to duh duh duuuuh TALKS... feck that lol. We're very early in our organising but we have talked about this stuff and it's definitely something we are looking into. The idea scenario is pre-teens / teenages arn't bored to death by various talks/workshops and stalls bnecuase they feel included and the vibe is less sterile but we can't expect every kid to have the staying power for a day of that, so I reckon we need some additional "fun stuff" for old n young alike. I've been chatting to a couple of comrades who work in escape rooms, and I think that kind of think might be cool if we can sort it out, Don't worry about about luke the bored 14 yo, they're locked in a revolutionary themed escape room trying to get out for the next hour, our perhaps giving up some space towards anarchist gaming. whether thats tabletop or video and holding open sessions for anyone to join in.There is also talk of some more physical workshops that will be more fun than sitting about listening to someone talk and will offer a good duality to events TBH I think half the time we (anarchists) take everything in way too serious a tone and I don't think there is any harm in making our events more fun. Even the worlds largest black metal festival has a dodgems. just saying ;p


*Rutitia1's *suggestion up there sounds like something y'all should do! use the forum as a space to organise and build community!

Now I'm not a parent, tho I think some of the collective are, I think is safe to say we'll be taking the lead from them and other comrades who are parents. We'll all be working to build a variety of solutions which will make the bookfair inclusive and welcoming.

I reckon much closer to the event we'll be holding open meetings and such and we'll be taking in the thoughts of parents and doing our best to build a space they feel comfortab le bring the family into and indeed building a space the kids don't mind being dragged too because they are part of it.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 29, 2019)

I can think of a few Urbanites who could contribute exciting tales of derring do and ridiculous nonsense to a Street Shenanigans Storytime type thing


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## kenny g (Aug 29, 2019)

My eleven year old seems to be interested in @ at the moment so am sure he will want to come along. In 2011/12 the children's space was pretty good. 

Only problem I had with the bookfair was you didn't know how suitable some of the "cabaret" would be. May be worth highlighting "parental discretion advised" or some such if there are any plans to repeat poetry on the pleasures of putting things in certain places.


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 29, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, he has to be mentioned 3 times by the same person before he appears through your mirror, and rips your throat out.


I see you're still a bunch of sad bastards: good job I rarely log in.


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## Red Cat (Aug 30, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> One of our fundamental tenants or whatever of organising is to make it inclusive.
> We will be providing Creche space and hopefully some kind of play area for older kids, both of which will be supervised by people who know what they are doing ie they will be paid  staff or (hopefully) comrades who work in child care who are volunteering their time.
> 
> This will be the minimum, and I hope we bring a lot more to the table.
> ...



Thanks for taking so much time to reply with your thoughts.

I've always been a bit anti-fun 

I think one of the things kids need is space, so not stuck in a small room at tables. I don't think they need to be 'entertained' and a lot of apparent boredom in kids is actually covering up worry of some kind, I don't know anyone etc. But if the event is all very in the head and abstract then they may well be.  It might be worth speaking to some teens about what they may find interesting - probably less being talked to and more open discussion? My nearly 12 year old is very interested in climate change, refugees, racism and sexism. I suppose I'm more optimistic about the capacity of that generation to change things than mine right now.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> I think one of the things kids need is space, so not stuck in a small room at tables. I don't think they need to be 'entertained' and a lot of apparent boredom in kids is actually covering up worry of some kind, I don't know anyone etc. But if the event is all very in the head and abstract then they may well be.  It might be worth speaking to some teens about what they may find interesting - probably less being talked to and more open discussion? My nearly 12 year old is very interested in climate change, refugees, racism and sexism. I suppose I'm more optimistic about the capacity of that generation to change things than mine right now.



100%.


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## LDC (Aug 30, 2019)

Plan C have been really good with kid's stuff at their events, especially the Fast Forward things they put on. They've been really open about that needing to be taken seriously and have put work into that, fits with their social reproduction thing. There's some stuff on the program from this year if you scroll down here Fast Forward 2019: A Plan C Festival

And the other London Bookfair collective have too of course, the venue is often a limiting factor though. When is the location for the 2020 Bookfair going to be made public? Getting one suitable has been a real problem, so if they've sorted one out this easily that's both good and a surprise.


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## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2019)

We have a venue which we feel would be suitable tho we don't want to get locked in stone until our campaign starts in earnest early next year. We'll probably head over somepoint before the end of the year to do a proposed mapping out of the bookfair ahead of our October meeting too...


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2019)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I see you're still a bunch of sad bastards: good job I rarely log in.



You should celebrate the urban myths about you, rather than calling people "sad bastards", you miserable old dog scrotum!


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## campanula (Aug 31, 2019)

My daughter often does kids areas - she just did a Reclaim the Power Camp for a few days and one of the constructive things which came out of doing children's spaces was the absolutely huge potential for engaging children in the political process. Smalls were involved in making flags and banners, subvertising and animation workshops were really popular with 8 and up, music, art and drama were really fertile grounds for further debate and encouragement - even the very smallest children were involved. However, this does not just happen spontaneously and it requires a committment of skill sharing from more than 2 harrassed women (daughter and another parent). It's simply hateful that kids are bundled off to go and do some crappy colouring while the adults scuttle off to do important politicking. Daughter is fierce and pushy and had commandeered a number of 'volunteers' to do kite making and animal habitats but there was a bit of a 'not very important' feeling around any of the kids activities...which is  a loss of opportunity for  truly grass-root solutions...and just further reinforced a lot of the usual power balance fails around  childcare. I know my daughter spent a lot of her own money providing art materials and such (and I was roped in to sew 23 (?) cushions and a number of huge blank banners.
 Even in my day, when we used to attend the CPGB annual get together's in Manchester, where children had no sort of separate space and generally clambered around the seats and made a nuisance of themselves, we generally managed to have a decent time - not being shoved into a corner somewhere with a bored and unengaged supervisor. Children are not just an extra appendage but are little political beings in their own right...and truly creative play is a key to unlocking and articulating issues which can have a lifelong inflience on children and families. Priorities, innit.
Grand-daughter spent all of the week before last, at protests and has been chanting 'hey ho Bolsonaro must go' this week...and is completely versed in egalitarian principles at 8.

I took my eldest to Marxism where he attended quite a few of the schoolkids talks. Had a bit of a run-in with Tony Benn at one of them (who later bought him a  drink and a packet of crisps at the bar!).


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## nyxx (Sep 1, 2019)

I agree that children should be included.

I don’t agree that anyone who has kids gets to criticise me for going and doing stuff which I’m free to do because I don’t have kids myself. I made that choice. Despite all the societal pressure to do otherwise. Other people’s kids are not my personal responsibility. I’ll contribute towards including kids and parents, but it’ll be my choice. I’ll “scuttle off” and do what’s important to me whenever I choose to.


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## chilango (Sep 1, 2019)

nyxx said:


> I don’t agree that anyone who has kids gets to criticise me for going and doing stuff which I’m free to do because I don’t have kids myself. I made that choice. Despite all the societal pressure to do otherwise. Other people’s kids are not my personal responsibility. I’ll contribute towards including kids and parents, but it’ll be my choice. I’ll scuttle off and do what’s important to me whenever I choose to.



Has anyone said that?


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 1, 2019)

nyxx said:


> I agree that children should be included.
> 
> I don’t agree that anyone who has kids gets to criticise me for going and doing stuff which I’m free to do because I don’t have kids myself. I made that choice. Despite all the societal pressure to do otherwise. Other people’s kids are not my personal responsibility. I’ll contribute towards including kids and parents, but it’ll be my choice. I’ll scuttle off and do what’s important to me whenever I choose to.



This sounds more individualist than collective.


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## nyxx (Sep 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> Has anyone said that?



I didn’t like the tone in some of campanula’s post just above.


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## nyxx (Sep 1, 2019)

FWIW I’ve provided kids activities at other gatherings, when someone’s been putting a programme together I’ve offered a session.

Also been on organising collectives for camps where some didn’t see the need to include children and wanted to make it over 18s only, I pushed for including children, it worked, and those kids who came had a great time.

I’ve also been at events v similar to the reclaim the power camp mentioned and yes I absolutely went off and did stuff I couldn’t have done if I was responsible for a child. I resent the implication that there’s anything wrong with that.


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## nyxx (Sep 1, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This sounds more individualist than collective.



I’m not a parent. I chose not to be. That’s an individual choice, thank fuck.


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## Sue (Sep 1, 2019)

nyxx said:


> I didn’t like the tone in some of campanula’s post just above.


I thought the tone (and content) of campanula's post was great. Surely as a collective, you do whatever's important to that collective* rather than what you necessarily want to do as an individual? Is that not kind of the point? 

*Assuming you have the skills required.

ETA I'm not a parent either but I've done my fair share of helping out at kids' cinema events, football competitions and all the rest.


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## nyxx (Sep 1, 2019)

Yes, you can assume that doing what’s important to oneself takes into account what’s important to the collective, when relevant.


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## campanula (Sep 1, 2019)

Um, I am not putting in any sort of spiky boot but merely wanting to emphasise that children have as much right and agency as anyone else, given the chance to participate...and often, the childcare components of meetings and protests are just viewed as an add-on instead of an integral part of the whole thing. I have had 3 of them so am very much aware what bloody hard work childcare can be...but  collective responsibilities for all children, can be a joyful and creative action, I will also admit to scuttling off myself, given any opportunity, so I really didn't intend to point a finger of guilt at anyone...just to emphasise some of the potentially useful ways of integrating childcare into the broader aims of the meeting/fair/whatever...whilst trying to not reinforce the current unequal  social reproduction  which tends to  isolate parents (and usually women).
I also accept the many difficulties around safeguarding  but feel that these are not insurmountable burdens when childcare is fully considered as a vital and energetic process worth investing effort in.
For many parents, especially single ones, isolation and inability to take part in political movements is  more than just an inconvenience - it perpetuates  anomie, loneliness and bitterness down generations.


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## campanula (Sep 1, 2019)

It's fair to say that, my involvement in collectives almost never involves any sort of creche work (cos I am desperate for a break) but I will happily spend many kitchen hours, cooking, cleaning and rubbish picking. Obviously, individual preferences can fit seamlessly within a wider collective because numbers and goodwill can overcome almost anything.


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## chilango (Sep 1, 2019)

nyxx has a point in that there are some @ activities that aren't suitable for kids, and shouldn't include them. 

Away from the Bookfair itself I do think that this is a big issue for the movement.

It is still largely a young person's game, with many if dropping out or back once we age, become parents etc.

Perhaps because it's still largely a combination of youth culture and spectacular action.


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## campanula (Sep 1, 2019)

Although this is purely anecdotal, it had a big effect on me at the time and really affected my involvement in the politics within a particular group. Back in the 1980s, I was involved in a women's collective which, as well as providing a space for education, meetings and activities (I taught a woodwork class a couple of times a week), a free creche was (for me) the fundamental service which enabled me to participate in anything. It was a bit shambolic, very collectivist and egalitarian. Workers (creche, office, tutors, building maintenance) were paid a nominal hourly rate - same for everyone. Success brought it's own particular problems when we got funding for more workers and larger premises. Suddenly, the creche workers, who had been paid exactly the same as anyone else, were defunded to a paltry hourly rate while hefty monthly salaries were being paid to an unfeasibly large bunch of   'professional' women who occupied the office (exactly the same number of courses and ctivities which had been administrated by 1 full-time and 1 part-time worker later required 11 women...none of whom had children. This was the most bitter betrayal of the feminist movement - that they would so willingly embrace hierarchical differences as to blatantly dismiss the absolute essential needs and importance of childcare...nor could they even see how  the entire organisation had perpetuated the inequalities which made parent's, and especially single mothers  so poorly represented in professional positions in the first place...
I realise that it was a personal thing which left me feeling quite betrayed (even though I never worked in the creche and would have wanted £100per hour for doing so).


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 1, 2019)

nyxx said:


> I’m not a parent. I chose not to be. That’s an individual choice, thank fuck.



I choose not to contribute to your healthcare or pension then. Because I can. Haha. My choice.

Yours,

Money placed elsewhere


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## nyxx (Sep 2, 2019)

Struggling to see what your point is Magnus but given the output I’ve read from you thus far my expectations are low; please don’t put effort into belabouring it. 

I made an individual choice not to become a parent - bodily autonomy, reproductive rights. I hope you’re not such a brazen misogynist as to have any problem with these principles. 

As to contributing to child care - I’ll do this happily in the right circumstances. 

Having been lumped with childcare responsibilities from age 11 because I was “the girl” I’ve got little time for any assumptions that I should be responsible for anyone’s kids. 

You’re mildly entertaining but it’s borderline tedious.


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## TopCat (Sep 2, 2019)

Will you let the book fair banner burners in?


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## LDC (Sep 2, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Will you let the book fair banner burners in?



How do we know who they are though?


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## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2019)

They'll be be a group of five young people with an old person watching. A few people filming themselves and handing the evidence to the OB.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> How do we know who they are though?


sheepish, smell of lighter fuel, singed eyebrows


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## andysays (Sep 2, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Will you let the book fair banner burners in?


We'll have no pyrophobia here or at the Bookfair, if you don't mind...


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## A380 (Sep 4, 2019)

As a kid I got dragged to no end of communist events with crèches and the like during the late 60s and early 70s. It’s probably a big part of why I am who I am. Which may, or may not, be a good thing.


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## ska invita (Sep 4, 2019)

A380 said:


> As a kid I got dragged to no end of communist events with crèches and the like during the late 60s and early 70s. It’s probably a big part of why I am who I am. Which may, or may not, be a good thing.


I can recommend  reading Alexi Sayles Stalin Ate My Homework for a funny/sad memoir on this  theme.


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## krink (Sep 4, 2019)

The way things are recently, I don't want to go to any anarchist _anything_, never mind take my kids.


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## Serge Forward (Sep 4, 2019)

Speaking as an anarcho communist for the last 38 years, I'm inclined to agree with that sentiment. Still, ever the optimist, I'm hoping things get better.


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## charlie mowbray (Sep 6, 2019)

Tomorrow, Saturday September 7th the ACG will be running stalls at both the Dorset Radical Bookfaiir and the Bradford Anarchist Bookfair. In addition, we will be holding meetings there, This Land Is Our Land at Dorset and “Whose NHS ? Beyond ‘fighting the cuts’ at Bradford. If you're in the vicinities, call by our stalls!


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## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

Statement regarding our communication with the LABC - Bookfair 2020


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## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

_However, we have concerns about the pool of funding remaining which was donated and raised by people and groups for the purpose of holding events and strengthening the Anarchist movement. While it is clear that you have decided you will not endorse Bookfair2020, we believe the funds that you are withholding should go towards helping improve and strengthen other areas of anarchist struggle. This money should not be left sitting in a bank account and it would be better to see it in circulation. We recommend transparency for the funds you currently have access to, and for you to donate them to a group like The Outsiders Project or Streets Kitchen._


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## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _However, we have concerns about the pool of funding remaining which was donated and raised by people and groups for the purpose of holding events and strengthening the Anarchist movement. While it is clear that you have decided you will not endorse Bookfair2020, we believe the funds that you are withholding should go towards helping improve and strengthen other areas of anarchist struggle. This money should not be left sitting in a bank account and it would be better to see it in circulation. We recommend transparency for the funds you currently have access to, and for you to donate them to a group like The Outsiders Project or Streets Kitchen._



A bit of a blackmaily demand I thought.


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## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> A bit of a blackmaily demand I thought.


That's a declaration of war.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That's a declaration of war.



For a given value of "war" I suppose. The start of a load of internet bollocks more like.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> For a given value of "war" I suppose. The start of a load of internet bollocks more like.


Oh this'll get nasty in real life - money does that. The new lot are making a big claim to speak for the wider anarchist movement here, they have opened the door to everyone not happy with this. The old bookfair collective don't seem very much into internet war tbh.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _However, we have concerns about the pool of funding remaining which was donated and raised by people and groups for the purpose of holding events and strengthening the Anarchist movement. While it is clear that you have decided you will not endorse Bookfair2020, we believe the funds that you are withholding should go towards helping improve and strengthen other areas of anarchist struggle. This money should not be left sitting in a bank account and it would be better to see it in circulation. We recommend transparency for the funds you currently have access to, and for you to donate them to a group like The Outsiders Project or Streets Kitchen._



And weird places to suggest giving the money to...? Why not to other anarchist projects?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And weird places to suggest giving the money to...? Why not to other anarchist projects?



Are they not anarchist projects? Never heard of them.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Are they not anarchist projects? Never heard of them.



Me neither. Quick Google showed them to be some charity type things (one about writing and one about homelessness) but fuck knows, maybe they are something else and I missed it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

They will be the way that people find out about who is behind the new bookfair because they're clearly mates/personal projects. It shows the vision is punx prisoners and homeless though. A real step back to the subculture bad old days. Anarchism as therapy to capitalism.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> They will be the way that people find out about who is behind the new bookfair because they're clearly mates/personal projects. It shows the vision is punx prisoners and homeless though. A real step back to the subculture bad old days. Anarchism as therapy to capitalism.



Theres no need to do any detective work to find out who's behind the new bookfair though is there?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Theres no need to do any detective work to find out who's behind the new bookfair though is there?


Hopefully not. I don't know if they were trying to keep it quiet or what. Those particular choices do say something though.


----------



## chilango (Sep 7, 2019)

...was all the trans vs. terf stuff worth this?


----------



## krink (Sep 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...was all the trans vs. terf stuff worth this?


I think for some people this kind of internal drama is preferable (i.e. easier) than having to face the big outside world and try to win hearts and minds and change the world with politics and that.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...was all the trans vs. terf stuff worth this?



The Leeds Anti Fascist Network group were out today counter demo-ing and shouting at a lesbian strength demo in the city. It's fighting fascists mate, fighting fascists...


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The Leeds Anti Fascist Network group were out today counter demo-ing and shouting at a lesbian strength demo in the city. It's fighting fascists mate, fighting fascists...



As LAFN?


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> As LAFN?



I wouldn't 100% be sure about today, but (some of?) the group have taken the LAFN banner on similar things plenty of times, and today it's on their FB

Leeds Anti-Fascist Network


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I wouldn't 100% be sure about today, but (some of?) the group have taken the LAFN banner on similar things plenty of times, and today it's on their FB
> 
> Leeds Anti-Fascist Network



Yeah , it seems axiomatic amongst the Tumblristas that Terfs are Nazis.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

_hollered_


----------



## belboid (Sep 7, 2019)

They were out on a anti Tommy Robinson demo earlier and went along afterwards.  It does seem to have been as semi-organised 'official' event tho


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2019)

Alerta! Alerta! Lesbians.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

Holler it loud y'all


----------



## smokedout (Sep 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The Leeds Anti Fascist Network group were out today counter demo-ing and shouting at a lesbian strength demo in the city. It's fighting fascists mate, fighting fascists...



Surely they were out countering the Free Tommy march?  And the counter march was also organised by lesbians by the way.


----------



## Athos (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Holler it loud y'all


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

If they've got any gumption they should turn down the grand which they think that they've been awarded for being great.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 7, 2019)

"A declaration of war" oh come on, that's a bit hypobolic isn't it. We've spoken honestly from one organisation to another, they addressed their concerns and we ours. 
Neither collective has any interest in getting into a internet pissing contest, but we felt the need to be transparent and open here what with everyones interest.

As far as we're concerned thats the end of it, even if they reply I doubt we will respond further. 
Well unless that's an interest in getting involved, we've got a year to prove that Bookfair 2020 will be a tidy affair aye.

Who is behind the Bookfair isn't some great mystery, we're not some shadowy cabal. 
The Outside Project and Streets Kitchen were selected as neutral parties who are far as we're aware have no links to either network and who are put Anarchist values into practice. They both do good work, Streets kitchen in particular are excellent for the ol' mutual aid. IF showing suolidarity and support our homeless isn't part of Anarchism I don't know what is, but I lean towards social anarchism and all that so go figure.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> If they've got any gumption they should turn down the grand which they think that they've been awarded for being great.



We thought about it, we certainly arn't going to chase it. However we decided whatever our budget, if they wanted to save face and chip in to a vital aspect of the Bookfair then an extra £1k would be useful ofcourse. Thus we leave the decision to them.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

You are demanding money off another group on the basis that you're anarchists and that this is anarchists money.

 If _they _want to save face? To wash.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We thought about it, we certainly arn't going to chase it. However we decided whatever our budget, if they wanted to save face and chip in to a vital aspect of the Bookfair then an extra £1k would be useful ofcourse. Thus we leave the decision to them.


_Save face - and you left their decision to them?_


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You are demanding money off another group



We have made no demand. Both ourselves and they have made that clear.

We asked them if they would consider forwarding the funds and subseqently if not, ask what they will do with the resource - giving a suggestion.

As Anarchists we really should be doing this shit otherwise you get things like the 40k from Occupy London just sitting idle in an account waiting until it disappeared...


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We have made no demand. Both ourselves and they have made that clear.
> 
> We asked them if they would consider forwarding the funds and subseqently if not, ask what they will do with the resource - giving a suggestion.
> 
> As Anarchists we really should be doing this shit otherwise you get things like the 40k from Occupy London just sitting idle in an account waiting until it disappeared...


Is this in the same account? How do you know? Is it sainsbury money?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I went to a Socialism once (the SPs equivelent of Marxism) where somebody had dragged their pre teen kids along. Really felt bad for them, two hour sessions on lessons of the fourth international or whatever without the anaesthetic of getting a bit pissed can't have been fun


Trotsky at 10 in the morning always a feature of these events.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2019)

Makes us long for the days of The Black Hand and autonomous Book Fairs


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Is this in the same account? How do you know? Is it sainsbury money?



I've been told the story of the missing 40k and the nicked Banksy by a few seperate folk involved with OL...sad affair.

IDK about how others feel but my personal inclination is that we use the resources we have as a community , not as seperate private organisism, especially after "the purpose" becomes moot.

If you have a SEPT 10th 2019  ACTION and end up having lots of funding after it, give it to the next fecking action, don't keep holding it waiting for the next Sept 10th 2019... he says in a shit analogy.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _Save face - and you left their decision to them?_



Maybe a bit harsh of me to say but my personal reading of their email is "part of our collective is blocking this becuase they are mates with transphobes, part defers to "no rules" as an Anarchist absolute and some of us want to do the right thing and support the bookfair regardless of political differances"

I suspect someone in the LABC fought really hard to get that £1k donation and yeah I think the rest probably wen't for it becuase they were worried about looking the bad guy. Still tho clearly some are stuck on a transphobe support rock which they intend to die on, holding onto the "banning people isn't anarchist" despite a long history of banning people.

I mean I don't know any of them, but thats my reading.


----------



## mihaly (Sep 7, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Maybe a bit harsh of me to say but my personal reading of their email is "part of our collective is blocking this becuase they are mates with transphobes, part defers to "no rules" as an Anarchist absolute and some of us want to do the right thing and support the bookfair regardless of political differances"
> 
> I suspect someone in the LABC fought really hard to get that £1k donation and yeah I think the rest probably wen't for it becuase they were worried about looking the bad guy. Still tho clearly some are stuck on a transphobe support rock which they intend to die on, holding onto the "banning people isn't anarchist" despite a long history of banning people.
> 
> I mean I don't know any of them, but thats my reading.


Completely wrong and totally ignorant. But no surprise there.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 7, 2019)

mihaly said:


> Completely wrong and totally ignorant. But no surprise there.



Are you in the LABC?

If I'm wrong and ignorant correct me comrade. I'm all ears, tho  your "no suprise there" seems that you already have your mind set.

On a personal level I would like nothing more that for you the explain the reasoning behind the email sent, the seemingly contrary response of no endorsement but a donation and the refusal to pass on the social media which currently serves LABC absolutely no use. I'm not speaking out of any spite but simply responding to the information available and from what I'm told by involved comrades.


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ...holding onto the "banning people isn't anarchist" despite a long history of banning people.



That, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, is bollocks.

They've refused stalls to groups and organizations that aren't anarchist, and have refused to ban people for pragmatic reasons (who to ban, on whose word, who enforces it, etc etc) as they have said in previous statements.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Maybe a bit harsh of me to say but my personal reading of their email is "part of our collective is blocking this becuase they are mates with transphobes, part defers to "no rules" as an Anarchist absolute and some of us want to do the right thing and support the bookfair regardless of political differances"
> 
> I suspect someone in the LABC fought really hard to get that £1k donation and yeah I think the rest probably wen't for it becuase they were worried about looking the bad guy. Still tho clearly some are stuck on a transphobe support rock which they intend to die on, holding onto the "banning people isn't anarchist" despite a long history of banning people.
> 
> I mean I don't know any of them, but thats my reading.


If they are stuck on a transphobic rock then you have no business accepting the money - if you believe what you say, never mind claiming it and _demanding/asking for more._


----------



## sihhi (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We have made no demand. Both ourselves and they have made that clear.
> 
> We asked them if they would consider forwarding the funds and subseqently if not, ask what they will do with the resource - giving a suggestion.
> 
> As Anarchists we really should be doing this shit otherwise you get things like the 40k from Occupy London just sitting idle in an account waiting until it disappeared...



We ask, others demand.


----------



## Athos (Sep 8, 2019)

I hope LABC hang onto the money and use it to put on a genuinely anarchist bookfair, rather than fund the new ID/sub-culture/causes fest that 2020 looks increasingly like being. Why should they comply with the entitled demands of a group of no-marks hell bent on wrongly accusing them of bigotry?


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 8, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, is bollocks.
> 
> They've refused stalls to groups and organizations that aren't anarchist, and have refused to ban people for pragmatic reasons (who to ban, on whose word, who enforces it, etc etc) as they have said in previous statements.



Tell me what Anarchist group were refusing a stall too or name an Anarchist we've banned.  Like we've gone over this.


*"If they are stuck on a transphobic rock then you have no business accepting the money - if you believe what you say, never mind claiming it and demanding/asking for more."
*
I don't think LABC are transphobic! I think their neutral platform and solidarity (and to my understanding given the statements/tweets from the time, individuals friendship with) people who are transphobic is an issue.

I guess the issue here is whether you see the london bookfair kitty has some kind private holding or shared resource....  If the LABC is a company or somesuch then the money is theirs and they can buy themselves something nice for all their work... but I think everyone (including them) is of the mind that is is "for bookfairs"... we asked if they wanted to give it to a bookfair, they said yes/no sorta... and we said, ok, maybe send the rest to some other cool stuff instead of leaving it about for a bookfair that allows transphobes (something which no doubt, will never happen again).

It's pretty simple and chill if your starting position isn't "2020 are just after drama coiz I don't like them"... we don't want any drama.

The only ACTUAL drama here is from people who want non-anarchist transphobes to have a space at a trans inclusive anarchist event.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Tell me what Anarchist group were refusing a stall too or name an Anarchist we've banned.  Like we've gone over this.
> 
> 
> *"If they are stuck on a transphobic rock then you have no business accepting the money - if you believe what you say, never mind claiming it and demanding/asking for more."
> ...


In the current climete and context saying that "Still tho clearly some are stuck on a transphobe support rock which they intend to die on," is 100% calling them transphobic quite publicly  and i think you damn well know this.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

We question, others _drama_.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> In the current climete and context saying that "Still tho clearly some are stuck on a transphobe support rock which they intend to die on," is 100% calling them transphobic quite publicly  and i think you damn well know this.



Hmmm. 

Seems some people have been complaining that people get branded as transphobes on spurious grounds. You seem to be in the camp who complains about that as a thing which is happening a lot and is wrong...

What exactly are you doing here? 

Cos it looks like you’re trying to take one statement and turn it into another, doing exactly what your ilk have been crying victimhood over.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 8, 2019)

Should have added in this quote to make it clear what my previous post referred to. 

(I’ll get the hang of multi quotes eventually.)




Rhyddical said:


> I don't think LABC are transphobic! I think their neutral platform and solidarity (and to my understanding given the statements/tweets from the time, individuals friendship with) people who are transphobic is an issue.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

_"Still tho clearly some are stuck on a transphobe support rock which they intend to die on,"
_
&

_I don't think LABC are transphobic! I think their neutral platform and solidarity (and to my understanding given the statements/tweets from the time, individuals friendship with) people who are transphobic is an issue._

Is there a difference between these two posts? Does the second one supercede the first, reject the first? Because the first very clearly says  - bearing in mind current climate and context - that the old group are transpobic. It's not even a dog whistle - it's there. So why is the social media face of the new bookfair saying this? If you're saying they are consistent then i can't help you.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

As for people of my _ilk_, i'm with smokedout and think there is space to turn anarchist guns on the identity politics nonsense of all sides here, starting, but not finishing,  with the radical feminists, and onto their mirror image. Then we'd have a useful anarchist bookfair.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 8, 2019)

Trouble is that there's no generally agreed definition of "transphobia".


----------



## Athos (Sep 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> ... there is space to turn anarchist guns on the identity politics nonsense of all sides here, starting, but not finishing with the radical feminists, and onto their mirror image.



What would that look like in practice, though, in the context of organising a bookfair?


----------



## nyxx (Sep 8, 2019)

It looks like the nuance between “rabid transphobic campaigner” and “friends with transphobic campaigner & supporting them despite not agreeing with them on this issue” is the one you’re seeking to eradicate.

I’m wondering why you’d want to do this.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

nyxx said:


> It looks like the nuance between “rabid transphobic campaigner” and “friends with transphobic campaigner & supporting them despite not agreeing with them on this issue” is the one you’re seeking to eradicate.


I'm trying to find which is the real position of the new organisers here. That you can't say or even admit that the two i quoted are a bit different is telling. Fall in line soldier.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 8, 2019)

Funny method of “trying to find out”


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

Athos said:


> What would that look like in practice, though, in the context of organising a bookfair?


I wasn't speaking about organising the bookfair on that basis but in response to the oh so accurate characterisation of people of my ilk by pvt nyxx. If a fair was organised on that basis though then i expect it would be very sparsely attended with more people protesting outside than going in and a handful of stalls. That's the state we've allowed ourselfs to get in i'm afraid.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Funny method of “trying to find out”


That's just what people of my ilk do.


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2019)

Athos said:


> What would that look like in practice, though, in the context of organising a bookfair?



Yeah, the Bookfair is to a large extent the result of the state of the anarchist movement and what groups and people constitute that. That the Bookfair becomes a supermarket of campaigns and issues and identity politics is partly a reflection of what's going on with anarchism more generally.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 8, 2019)

The arrogance displayed is grating.


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Tell me what Anarchist group were refusing a stall too or name an Anarchist we've banned.  Like we've gone over this.



One or other of us is misunderstanding what the other has written.

You seemed to be suggesting that the LABC collective were sticking to the 'banning things is not anarchist' line. Which they never did. They decided not to ban people on pragmatic lines, not political ones.


----------



## PeterTCA (Sep 8, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One or other of us is misunderstanding what the other has written.
> 
> You seemed to be suggesting that the LABC collective were sticking to the 'banning things is not anarchist' line. Which they never did. They decided not to ban people on pragmatic lines, not political ones.



It's hard not to see parallels between the ins and outs of Brexit and the ins and outs of a Book fair.

Thank God we are not trying to put a revolution together.


----------



## rekil (Sep 8, 2019)

Athos said:


>


i believe it's a mockery of the appropriation of foreign linguistic stylings popularised by activists such as 'them Duke Boys' and Gwen Stefani m'lud.


----------



## kenny g (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> It's pretty simple and chill if your starting position isn't "2020 are just after drama coiz I don't like them"... we don't want any drama.
> 
> The only ACTUAL drama here is from people who want non-anarchist transphobes to have a space at a trans inclusive anarchist event.



You have lost my sympathy/ empathy. Your  post is a complete crock of shite. Horrible stuff. Weird mix of falseness, passive aggressiveness and general "bad air". I am sure you will walk into some wank middle management job in a charidee in a few years and fit right in. Nasty.


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> The only ACTUAL drama here is from people who want non-anarchist transphobes to have a space at a trans inclusive anarchist event.



Can you point me to where anyone on here (or anywhere) is actually saying that?


----------



## Athos (Sep 8, 2019)

copliker said:


> i believe it's a mockery of the appropriation of foreign linguistic stylings popularised by activists such as 'them Duke Boys' and Gwen Stefani m'lud.



I think you've missed something.  It seemed to me that it was linking the LAFN language (holler) to the "y'all" we saw earlier in this thread.


----------



## mihaly (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Are you in the LABC?
> 
> If I'm wrong and ignorant correct me comrade. I'm all ears, tho  your "no suprise there" seems that you already have your mind set.
> 
> On a personal level I would like nothing more that for you the explain the reasoning behind the email sent, the seemingly contrary response of no endorsement but a donation and the refusal to pass on the social media which currently serves LABC absolutely no use. I'm not speaking out of any spite but simply responding to the information available and from what I'm told by involved comrades.



- yes but on here in a personal capacity. The decision to offer the money was easy quick and unanimous.  So there you go. We said in 2017 that we would not be criticising from the sidelines any attempts to organise a bookfair in London but I don't think that means any of us have to let this sort of gossip and innuendo either from you or your "involved comrades" ( who are not involved in LABC) go unanswered.

As to the rest of it- read the full reply we sent back in August rather than the excerpts you put on the website.  LABC will be responding to the statement that was put out yesterday directly. 

One final thing though- unlike butchersapron I don't see a "declaration of war", i don't think LABC see it like that and I hope your collective aren't stupid enough to intend it as such.


----------



## Top Dog (Sep 8, 2019)

Rhyddical, tbh it's hard to see your charm offensive on this thread as credible when on the Bf2020s social media, numerous posters find themselves blocked for putting entirely legitimate questions or responses, not dissimilar in tone or content to many posts on here in fact. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence those same personnel are willing to or capable of delivering a pluralistic event, thats welcoming and representative of all strands the movement, does it?


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

mihaly said:


> - yes but on here in a personal capacity. The decision to offer the money was easy quick and unanimous.  So there you go. We said in 2017 that we would not be criticising from the sidelines any attempts to organise a bookfair in London but I don't think that means any of us have to let this sort of gossip and innuendo either from you or your "involved comrades" ( who are not involved in LABC) go unanswered.



Glad to know some more. Thank you.

We didn't include the entire statement as we were concerned about accusations of harming your privacy, We've asked a couple of times now but If you'd like us to uinclude thhe full statement happy to.

I don't think the LABC is out for war in the slightest, I think you're stuck in a difficult position due to A: wanting a bookfair and B: not wanting it to be no transphobia. The reality is (as far as I'm aware) some of the collective are friendly with people I/we would call transphobic and have a political neutrality/ no banning philosophy that is at odd with the wider Anarchist movement (atleast every other Anarchist bookfair and larger body)... so rock and hard place. Your own statements/commentry after 2017 and the message sent out earlier in this year make those positions quite clear and anything but innuendo.

If I'm being truly honest and slightly against myself here I think now that there is a "no Transphobia Bookfair", it opens up a window for there to be a Bookfair which pro-activley takes on these issues in the way everyone is pissed off that we wont.

Has the LABC thought about running such a bookfair in the light of changes? Clearly given the attempt earlier in the year there is drive too?

I can't speak for the rest of the collective but there has been informal chat about not standing in the way of fringe events nor events Gender Critical folk put on and such and even if you guys didn't feel like holding a bookfair,and certainly not assuming your personal politics perhaps providing a symbiotic event of that nature would appease everyone and tick everyones boxes?

Truly I think that is something you all want to consider and I would rather hope we could talk about as comrades, I'm back in London on the 12th next month If you / LABC folk would actually like a sit down and a chat about this and other issues over a pint sure a couple of us would be happy to meet up and air-clear and discuss such a thing without it being antagonistic?

At the end of the day here, the one thing we do all agree on is that we're supposed to be getting on with some Anarchy and forwarding a revolution... would really love to focus on that and make the next step[s positive ones despite our differances.

Re other questions....

*Top dog - *Aside from bigotry, you can expect a wide range of Anarchist (and friendly) tendancies as alreayd shown by the groups who have requested a stall before we've even sent out invites. We're pro-activley involving various networks from across the board locally, nationally and internationally just as the LABC did a pretty solid job of doing. So I expect it to be much of the same.
*
LynnDoyleCooper - *The entire point of contention here is where Transphobes should be given a platform / place to debate during Bookfair 2020. I've given a pretty solid definition of Transphobia here and I havn't got time to be sealioned into scrolling through 24 pages of bickering. However you're comment abou the bookfair being a "supermarket of ..." is an interesting one. I think one of the issues between Anarchists here is the concern that because we have a no-transphobia policy that we are a slip into idpol and such. We arn't, We are just a differant body of Class Struggle Anarchists making a bookfair. Comrades are concerned because they don't know what that will look like and given that so much of the conversation has been about Trans issues with a crotchy dude think that it's going to be like X. Perhaps we would do well to pen a more positive statement on "The vision" to better project what we aim to put on.

*Kenny G -* I'm truly not trying to "win" people, this is less a debate than a sharing of information. Mind you, like every other human, sometimes I'm in a bad way and type without thinking, tho I agree with my points the way I put them across is a bit shirty to say the least. In part again I blame the the sheer tirade of bullshit we take constantly across several platforms and reading people defending those we've blocked is disheartening. The only people we have blocked have been those spewing outright bigotry of the kind even those who have a more narrow sense of Transphobia would agree cross a line, it's... a weight if you get me.

*Butchersapron - *I think there is a differance between being transphobic and taking a stand in support of people being accused of transphobia. Is that any clearer for you?


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

Should add...

Folks, I'm just here on a personal capacity and if I'm shirty, I'm shirty. Everyone has a bad day and I'm not here to talk for the collective or keep up appearances.  Any aggyness born from this thread can be directed to me as a person like but yeah, can't always be having a shiny day can we ;p

I do actually trully hope over the next year we can find a better way of addressing a shocking "no Transphobia" at an event and actually have a starting position of "we're all fecking comrades" rather than just have this pointless bickering over and over again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2019)

perhaps we should just reschedule for october 2021


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Seriously.

Given the political situation right now, the anarchist movement is tearing itself apart over this?

Fucks sake.

Some perspective needs to be gained. And fast.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> Seriously.
> 
> Given the political situation right now, the anarchist movement is tearing itself apart over this?
> 
> ...


what do you think the @ movement should be tearing itself apart over instead?


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> what do you think the @ movement should be tearing itself apart over instead?



Love.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Seriously though.

Whilst my local _soi dissant_ anarchist group are busy tweeting "fuck TERFs" it's the fucking LibDems taking to the streets.

That's proper fucked up.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> Seriously though.
> 
> Whilst my local _soi dissant_ anarchist group are busy tweeting "fuck TERFs" it's the fucking LibDems taking to the streets.
> 
> That's proper fucked up.



Something we can all agree on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> Seriously though.
> 
> Whilst my local _soi dissant_ anarchist group are busy tweeting "fuck TERFs" it's the fucking LibDems taking to the streets.
> 
> That's proper fucked up.


you're right, we should be reclaiming the streets from the yellow tories


----------



## smokedout (Sep 9, 2019)

There's nothing stopping us.  I think a street presence that said fuck the lot of them could make gains now.  We could be planning for the Oct XR thing, we don't have to abide by their wet tactics, we never used to fall in line like that.

I do sometimes wonder if all these splits, throwing hands in the air and bemoaning that young people are doing it wrong is sometimes used as quite a convenient excuse for burnt out inactive middle aged anarchos to stay being burnt out inactive middle aged anarchos rather than going out and organising within (and hopefully outside of, or beyond) the constraints and cultures of political conditions as they currently exist.  Because there doesn't seem to be much chance of changing anything if all we're doing is whinging and sniping at each other online.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

smokedout said:


> There's nothing stopping us.  I think a street presence that said fuck the lot of them could make gains now.  We could be planning for the Oct XR thing, we don't have to abide by their wet tactics, we never used to fall in line like that.
> 
> I do sometimes wonder if all these splits, throwing hands in the air and bemoaning that young people are doing it wrong is sometimes used as quite a convenient excuse for burnt out inactive middle aged anarchos to stay being burnt out inactive middle aged anarchos rather than going out and organising within (and hopefully outside of, or beyond) the constraints and cultures of political conditions as they currently exist.  Because there doesn't seem to be much chance of changing anything if all we're doing is whinging and sniping at each other online.



That could be true.

But when said burnt out inactive middle aged anarchos want to do something, try to to do something...

...how do the "young people" respond to us?


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2019)

The age/generational thing is really interesting, a few of us were chatting about it last night.

People can have been involved in politics (activism really) for quite a chunk of time (10 years was thrown about as a timescale) and during that time collective projects like anarchist groups, publishing books and pamphlets, discussion groups, street stalls, and affinity groups have all collapsed.

It's further fragmented into personal blogs, Twitter accounts, sub-cultural stuff, and it's also very possible (likely) that many people in the anarchist/activist scene have mostly conducted and discussed politics through online platforms with maybe the occasional attendance at a demo or picket.

In the city I live in almost everyone under 30 (maybe even a bit older) in the political scene has had no experience of mass collective struggle at all. No difficult discussion around strategy, no interacting with the public while they do street stalls, no being next to someone in a confrontation, etc etc. It creates a very different outlook and relationship to politics and others around you.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Thing is, I'm pretty keen on meeting with/talking to/doing stuff with the local groups that according to Twitter are active very near to me. But my god the fuckers are elusive!


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> Thing is, I'm pretty keen on meeting with/talking to/doing stuff with the local groups that according to Twitter are active very near to me. But my god the fuckers are elusive!



That's another epidemic problem, social media accounts and websites run by one person masquerading as an active group.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

This is one of my chief concerns as an organiser. I've seen a few "new waves" of organisers and everyone has spent half the time working out the basics once again. There is a lack of knowledge transferance going on for a variety of reasons and I think we all could be doing more to encourage yoot to be skilling up outside of the web shit and for the long in the tooth to be more pro-active in sharing those skills.  This is more than the odd archive, it's involvement and doing. 

It's not even like there arn't catalysts for action there just seems to be a sense of intrpidation for lack of a better word. Fear of fash or "the conseqeunes" does seem to neautor groups.

Bookfair is fucking miles away but it's something I'd like to try and counter there somewhat... idk how... a quick talk aint going to do it....fuck knows... I suppose working class activists have always had this issue, in some pub in the 80's were some radicals fromt he 60's complaining about how the kids just arn't doing it right and before them some aged communists ... idk... I thought the internet was supposed to just magically fix everything? Till then............ 

On a serious note it was suggested that a "second day" could be more on a organisers conferance of sorts, taking stock of the situation at the time and with a wide variety of groups present do some solid headstratching about planning for the following year...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> On a serious note it was suggested that a "second day" could be more on a organisers conferance of sorts, taking stock of the situation at the time and with a wide variety of groups present do some solid headstratching about planning for the following year...


but as you say bookfair is fucking miles away and it's not cheap for people to have a weekend in london. will the usual calls for places for people to crash go out?


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2019)

I'm always up for discussions about this stuff, but do accept the problems with it being London based and not that accessible to people with limited time and/or income.

Wonder if there's any mileage in localities putting on discussions in the few months leading up to the Bookfair, that then somehow feed in to the London one, or address some of the same questions and issues, or something like that?


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

> There is a lack of knowledge transferance going on for a variety of reasons



Yeah, Rhyddical, Imo one factor in that is a lack of sustainable/sustained real world infrastructure.

Organisations, bookshops, paper publications with a distribution network. That kinda thing.

In their absence the Bookfair is really important.


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2019)

I mean I'd love to see (and I think we desperately need) a coherent, organized, vibrant, dynamic, relevant, and combative anarchist movement/organization, as I'm sure everyone here would.

The question is how do we get from where we are now to there? Is it even possible, or is the anarchist movement currently more of an hindrance to this than a help?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> That could be true.
> 
> But when said burnt out inactive middle aged anarchos want to do something, try to to do something...
> 
> ...how do the "young people" respond to us?



I'm not sure if this is representative or not but

1. the small reading group of young 'uns I was involved with briefly this year were pretty cagey about raising the trans stuff. Not in a hostile _"oh this guy is really old so we'd better not talk about it"_ way. More like they realised that it is a bottomless pit of exhausting bile and there are other things to talk about instead which are more productive. 

2. A comrade my age and I went for a pint and we also skirted around this issue. We have slightly different positions on it but are on the same page in pretty much every other respect. He was quite hesistant to discuss it all and so was I. But we had a good evening and are still friends. I felt like we had left the door open to maybe come back to it on another occasion.

I think (and this has been discussed here) that judging a thing by the looniest exponents of it on social media, is... _bad_. 

Everyone knows that the way people portray their lifestyles on platforms like instagram is a lie. So why should anarcho-commie twitter politics be any different? 

I have to say when I was a pissy Crass fan it was amazing having kids a few years older who seemed more sussed than me. And it was even more amazing going to the Bookfair and seeing people who were as old as my parents. Maybe it is up to us old fuckers to try and stop things become youth-subcultures by turning up and rattling our pillboxes and walking sticks.


----------



## Top Dog (Sep 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> *Top dog - *Aside from bigotry, you can expect a wide range of Anarchist (and friendly) tendancies as alreayd shown by the groups who have requested a stall before we've even sent out invites. We're pro-activley involving various networks from across the board locally, nationally and internationally just as the LABC did a pretty solid job of doing. So I expect it to be much of the same.


You didn't respond to the point about Bf2020 blocking posters on their sm for raising concerns/making points. I'll assume that you missed it rather than you're good with that, but care to respond to that point in particular?


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2019)

It also seems to be Bookfair 2020 in all the info so far. Has the Anarchist bit been dropped?

Also your minutes say:

"We want bookfair to be diverse and inclusive; we will make a point of inviting black and minority ethic networks as well as those with a focus on queer identity, sex work and other issues which sometimes take a back foot at these events."

Interested to know which anarchist black and minority ethnic networks and those that focus on queer identity are you going to invite?


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but as you say bookfair is fucking miles away and it's not cheap for people to have a weekend in london. will the usual calls for places for people to crash go out?



I would bloody hope so. We're not really going to be able to host everyone visiting but I imagine we'll create some sort of "find a bunk" post and tbh I'm quite to try and organise some sort of week long squatted social centre / bedding nearby... tho thats obviously not for everyone


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm always up for discussions about this stuff, but do accept the problems with it being London based and not that accessible to people with limited time and/or income.
> 
> Wonder if there's any mileage in localities putting on discussions in the few months leading up to the Bookfair, that then somehow feed in to the London one, or address some of the same questions and issues, or something like that?




Thats the problem with a London Bookfair being the "national" one... Once we're over this first one I'd be inclinded to have the same event flicker between Birmingham/Manchester and London on a six monthly basis, perhaps even with trips to Cardiff,Edinburgh, Belfast in rotation every other year. Working with local crews to add local flavour.

But I'm one of the folks who like to punch above our weight and get on with shit... tbh I think it's dire that we only see these events yearly and at that mostly in London.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

Top Dog said:


> You didn't respond to the point about Bf2020 blocking posters on their sm for raising concerns/making points. I'll assume that you missed it rather than you're good with that, but care to respond to that point in particular?



I've addressed that several times on thread and I did in the comment you qoute.

"I blame the the sheer tirade of bullshit we take constantly across several platforms and reading people defending those we've blocked is disheartening. The only people we have blocked have been those spewing outright bigotry of the kind even those who have a more narrow sense of Transphobia would agree cross a line, it's... a weight if you get me."

Each and every block on the social media has been due to some overt act of trolling, transphobia or in a small minority a quick look on profiles too see the nature of commentors posting bigotry elsewhere.
We've been HIGHLY tolerate of people attacking us and I've personally responded to literaly hundreds of comments across several threads.

We arn't silencing debate or concern in these spaces and those who have been smart/erudite enough not to spew bigotry have encountered that.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It also seems to be Bookfair 2020 in all the info so far. Has the Anarchist bit been dropped?



We are distinctly Anarchist in nature, we have not used that name as a courtesy to LABC. Given we are already accused of a take over that seems the right move.

If they stated they didn't mind or had of endorsed we would os used the name. London Anarchist Bookfair, as far as I'm aware the organising collective has changed atleats once before in the 80's or something no?

Re; Invite lists, we're not making these public. sorry.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We are distinctly Anarchist in nature, we have not used that name as a courtesy to LABC. Given we are already accused of a take over that seems the right move.
> 
> If they stated they didn't mind or had of endorsed we would os used the name. London Anarchist Bookfair, as far as I'm aware the organising collective has changed atleats once before in the 80's or something no?
> 
> Re; Invite lists, we're not making these public. sorry.



You could easily insert "Anarchist" into the name of the event without calling "The London Anarchist Bookfair".

Also whyever wouldn't you be public about which groups you've invited?


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Re; Invite lists, we're not making these public. sorry.



Given these anarchist black and minority ethnic and queer networks are obviously public, and that hopefully they'll be at the Bookfair, and you have gone on about it being for the movement, why the problem with saying who's been asked to come?!

So, it's Bookfair 2020 then? No anarchist in the name? No strapline either? Don't you think there might be a slight issue with that?


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

Name:-
We've got four meetings and 5 months before our campaign begins in earnest. I'm sure 90% of our media will be differant and we'll have straplines and all the rest of it. I'm actually very very pro putting Anarchism in the name and putting the word out there. I guess watch this space, also hopefully LABC and ourselves find a more positive relationship or they say "use the name" or whatever. Our graphics are all rather early.

Invite lists:-
We've already had threats that people/groups would be contacts and TOLD not to go becuase we hate women etc etc etc. So primarily it's for there security. Second to this, we'd rather finalise said lists and send out all the emails at the same time, early in 2020 no doubt, so no point sending out half a list and finally, because we don't want any network to feel obliged or forced to partake or make stances etc etc, there will be many groups not wanting a stall for various reasons and thats ok. Last thing we need is people being accused of hating trans / hating women depending on your perspective for attending/not attending when really they were just busy on the day lol.

It's not standard for a bookfair to put out a "invite list" that I've ever seen btw


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 9, 2019)

If I was organising an event I doubt I’d feel obliged to post up a list of invited people or disinvited people to a hostile Internet forum tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> If I was organising an event I doubt I’d feel obliged to post up a list of invited people or disinvited people to a hostile Internet forum tbh.



Of course you wouldn't, nor would most people here.

The hoops that people are expecting Rhyddical to jump through on this thread are pretty shit.

There is a load of 'what about?' and 'what ifs', demands for x. y, z information. The organisers don't owe anyone here their undivided attention and answers to every sneery or unreasonable question they can come up with.

I doubt half the people here will even go to the bookfair tbh and are merely indulging their daily theoretical discussion fix.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> If I was organising an event I doubt I’d feel obliged to post up a list of invited people or disinvited people to a hostile Internet forum tbh.



Indeed.

It's probably not a great idea to use your invite list as proof of anything then.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Of course you wouldn't, nor would most people here.
> 
> The hoops that people are expecting Rhyddical to jump through on this thread are pretty shit.
> 
> ...



They don't owe us anything.

But it is, genuinely, good to be having this discussion as it is bringing up some useful points as it rumbles along.

I hope to go, as I have before. Hence me raising questions regarding logistics.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> Indeed.
> 
> It's probably not a great idea to use your invite list as proof of anything then.




Ah point of confusion.
The list on our website is one of groups that contacted us asking for a stall/workshop etc or who we've directly spoken to as part of our standard organising.

They form a diverse bunch, primarily Anarchistic.... thus I would think a reasonable response to the question I was asked.

Honestly don't mind questions such as this, if anything they MAKE us discuss things and discover boxes we need to tick and such.

PS. I don't think this is a hostile forumn you're all lovely and I hope to win you all over with my amazing charm offensive and hoop jumpng skillz ;p


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Ah point of confusion.
> The list on our website is one of groups that contacted us asking for a stall/workshop etc or who we've directly spoken to as part of our standard organising.
> 
> There form a diverse bunch, primarily Anarchistic.... thus I would think a reasonable response to the question I was asked.



Fair enough.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We've been HIGHLY tolerate of people attacking us and I've personally responded to literaly hundreds of comments across several threads.


Great effort ... Considering how many words get typed out everyday on the net I'm not sure it changes people's opinions all that much, but nonetheless good luck with it all.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Thats the problem with a London Bookfair being the "national" one... Once we're over this first one I'd be inclinded to have the same event flicker between Birmingham/Manchester and London on a six monthly basis, perhaps even with trips to Cardiff,Edinburgh, Belfast in rotation every other year. Working with local crews to add local flavour.



There's also the  Anarchist Festival	1st to Monday 4th May 2020, happening in May 2020, the decentralised model might make a small difference in taking the full focus off London and this one event.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 10, 2019)

Unofficially there's been some communication between the Anarchist Festival being in May, London Radical Bookfair in June, Anti-university (think July maybe?) and Bookfair 2020 in October to avoid too much crossover next year.

Obv the ideal is to have something happening pretty much every month with everyone getting a weekend to themselves (Dorset and Bradford happening on the same day this year was a shame, ideally that one won't reoccur!) but that really depends on venues and what other big events are on as much as it does on how we work things out between ourselves - competing with the County Fair, big demo days, festivals etc is obv to be avoided where possible.

Having listed all that, in among all the aggy stuff that goes on online I reckon if those old folks from the '50s had seen all this activity they would have been pretty chuffed. Back in the day the movement they were rebuilding mostly from scratch could just about manage a ball headlined by George Melly at Fulham Town Hall, but the idea of four big events in London alone and many more elsewhere in the country would have been pretty outlandish!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 19, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Struggling to see what your point is Magnus but given the output I’ve read from you thus far my expectations are low



Cheers.



> I made an individual choice not to become a parent - bodily autonomy, reproductive rights. I hope you’re not such a brazen misogynist as to have any problem with these principles.



Literally had no idea what your sex was until this juncture...



> You’re mildly entertaining but it’s borderline tedious.



No worries.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 19, 2019)

_I don’t have kids so never my responsibility in any kind of collective sense towards them._

I don’t have cerebral palsy.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We are distinctly Anarchist in nature, we have not used that name as a courtesy to LABC. Given we are already accused of a take over that seems the right move.
> 
> If they stated they didn't mind or had of endorsed we would os used the name. London Anarchist Bookfair, as far as I'm aware the organising collective has changed atleats once before in the 80's or something no?
> 
> Re; Invite lists, we're not making these public. sorry.


Your cheek gets more brazen.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Of course you wouldn't, nor would most people here.
> 
> The hoops that people are expecting Rhyddical to jump through on this thread are pretty shit.
> 
> ...


Are you an anarchist? Whats all this got do with you? Why did you start this thread?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> How do we know who they are though?


It is known.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Are you an anarchist?



Ooh are you really gonna go there Topcat?

I joined the Labour Party...

I mean I'm cool with you doing as you will electorally-speaking, yea or nay, but it's not all that long ago you were publicly foregoing bookfair pints in favour of a Labour tipple and not expecting those of us you'd left behind to forgive you, so maybe forego that rush to judge


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Ooh are you really gonna go there Topcat?
> 
> I joined the Labour Party...
> 
> I mean I'm cool with you doing as you will electorally-speaking, yea or nay, but it's not all that long ago you were publicly foregoing bookfair pints in favour of a Labour tipple and not expecting those of us you'd left behind to forgive you, so maybe forego that rush to judge


Fair enough.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Your cheek gets more brazen.



You prefer your comrades mild mannered and polite?

But not really sure I'm being cheeky... I've generally acted in a polite and courtesy fashion (couple of notable times I have not on the thread) enouraged the LABC member who said hello to talk to us and have a chit chat about what we intend to do and whether they want to be involved in any capacity.

I think given the depth of passionate feelings this draws up for people  and given that we view the LABC are comrades who we meerly disagree with on pretty much a single issue IE Should Anarchist spaces exlude all forms of bigotry (with a secondary issue about WHAT counts as bigotry), I think we're both doing a pretty good job as networks to do our jobs. That I might be a little more salty as a person on a hostile thread is neither here nor there. I am not the entireity of the Bookfair 2020 collective. We are not Borg.

Truly tho... I do find this thing about the name facinating.

Question to the thread in general....

With the LABC on hiatus, seemingly indefinatly... how long is the name "London Anarchist Bookfair" not to be used?  Would we say Anarchists have ownership of names even after they are using them? It's an interesting bit of thought.... would Freedom kick off is some crew up Birmingham opened a shop with the same name? What about if someone made a magazine called Resistance, would the AF kick off? I suppose it's whether or not there is cross purpose or deliberate confusion... but given that Bookfair 2020 has gone out of it's way to have a differant name, a very differant look and it going to be located in a differant bit of a vast metropolois, not sure anyone can say we're stealing the LABCs jam.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 24, 2019)

Books arent really the key thing so is Bookfair  necessary? Could easily drop the books bit...seems to me better than dropping the Anarchist bit. Anarchist Fair?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Books arent really the key thing so is Bookfair  necessary? Could easily drop the books bit...seems to me better than dropping the Anarchist bit. Anarchist Fair?


books and other merchandise are quite central to the entire enterprise, it's where so many groups have gained much of - if not most of - their income for the year, so it seems perverse to me to downplay that side of things.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 24, 2019)

The Grand Anarchist London Bookfair & Bunfight 2020.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 24, 2019)

The bunfight is as inevitable as the books.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 24, 2019)

Long after you've all forgotten this and we run an april fool rebrand to Bunfight 2020 .... you know whose responsible.


----------



## chilango (Sep 24, 2019)

It won't be forgotten. There are "files".


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Long after you've all forgotten this and we run an april fool rebrand to Bunfight 2020 .... you know whose responsible.


It is foolish to reveal your April fools more than six months in advance


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

There’s something irritating about people setting up a new account to slag someone off too.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

Update here:

Bookfair 2020 secures venue and announces dates


----------



## rat (Nov 8, 2019)

There is something deeply irritating about Rhyddical. He is a very committed self-promoter.
Take a look at his daft Twitter account: "Editor of Organise!" and "Organiser of bookfair2020".
And why does he use such corny lingo in his posts?
Very unconvincing


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 9, 2019)

Why is Fozzie Bear ’s reply displaying before the post it’s responding to?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

Yeah I wondered about that too. Maybe I am becoming detached from the space time continuum.


----------



## Athos (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Update here:
> 
> Bookfair 2020 secures venue and announces dates



It reaffirms the commitment to 'no cameras', before going on to say they'll be doing a live YouTube stream on the day.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

You could do that in a room though and invite people in to talk about the day and their projects.


----------



## LDC (Nov 9, 2019)

Goldsmith's students involved now. That report does read a bit ID politics-tastic too not surprisingly.


----------



## Athos (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> You could do that in a room though and invite people in to talk about the day and their projects.



I guess.  Still seems at odds with the very firm ("without exception") rule, and might make some comrades nervous.


----------



## Athos (Nov 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Goldsmith's students involved now.



Now?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2019)

rat said:


> There is something deeply irritating about Rhyddical. He is a very committed self-promoter.
> Take a look at his daft Twitter account: "Editor of Organise!" and "Organiser of bookfair2020".
> And why does he use such cory lingo in his posts?
> Very unconvincing



Why have you assumed that Rhyddical is a he/male?


----------



## LDC (Nov 9, 2019)

Athos said:


> Now?



Maybe they were before, was just my assumption from reading the report quickly. Considerations of interests from comrades from across the anarchist spectrum might well turn out to be so far from across the spectrum they're not even anarchists I suspect.


----------



## chilango (Nov 9, 2019)

I'm glad that it seems to be happening


----------



## andysays (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There’s something irritating about people setting up a new account to slag someone off too.



Very prescient observation


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

Might buy a lottery ticket today.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

At the risk of derailing the thread, a friend just posted Ian Walker’s observations of the London anarchist scene from 1979:

https://standupandspit.wordpress.com/2019/11/09/anarchy-in-the-uk/


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> At the risk of derailing the thread, a friend just posted Ian Walker’s observations of the London anarchist scene from 1979:
> 
> https://standupandspit.wordpress.com/2019/11/09/anarchy-in-the-uk/


Your periodic reminder that the creator of Top Boy was once a political prisoner


----------



## kenny g (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> At the risk of derailing the thread, a friend just posted Ian Walker’s observations of the London anarchist scene from 1979:
> 
> https://standupandspit.wordpress.com/2019/11/09/anarchy-in-the-uk/



Not a derail at all. Most pertinent and useful wake up call from 40 years ago.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 9, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why have you assumed that Rhyddical is a he/male?


Why do you assume rat assumes?


----------



## Athos (Nov 9, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why have you assumed that Rhyddical is a he/male?



Rat might know him.

Or might have looked at his profile, where he's shown as 'Male.'


----------



## kenny g (Nov 9, 2019)

Athos said:


> Rat might know him.
> 
> Or might have looked at his profile, where he's shown as 'Male.'



Sounds like the Jessie Dog issues of a few years back where a poster was shockingly found to be neither female nor a dog. I always assumed Rhyddical was a she rather than a he. Must be a word for it. I suppose "wrong" will do.


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> At the risk of derailing the thread, a friend just posted Ian Walker’s observations of the London anarchist scene from 1979:
> 
> https://standupandspit.wordpress.com/2019/11/09/anarchy-in-the-uk/



More Ian Walker articles here:

Ian Walker's New Society Articles

And here's the 'Take me to your anarchists' cartoon mentioned at the end of Walker's article:


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

imposs1904 yes his piece on the Hackney NF HQ you posted was excellent.


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## Lurdan (Nov 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> At the risk of derailing the thread, a friend just posted Ian Walker’s observations of the London anarchist scene from 1979:
> 
> https://standupandspit.wordpress.com/2019/11/09/anarchy-in-the-uk/



Cheers for the link. I don't recall seeing this article at the time and it's interesting reading it now. 

The articles obvious purpose was an attempt to 'explain' the anarchist scene against the background of the Persons Unknown trial, which had briefly raised its visibility. Perhaps to state the obvious, given that context, it should be stressed that it's based on talking to those people who were prepared to talk to Mr Walker. 

The Police investigation that began in the spring of '78 and which led to the Persons Unknown trial was a pretty intensive business involving a lot of raids. While it would not really be accurate to say that the scene was on lockdown as a result, by late '79 most people were very cautious about outsiders and journalists. (The other side of this was that during the investigation and trial a significant, and somewhat unusual, degree of co-operation developed amongst existing groups, including some which had been estranged for much of the 70s. However that didn't involve being open to strangers. I recall P & M who founded 121 in Brixton telling me that part of the motivation for setting up their own project was how unwelcoming the anarchist scene was when they arrived in London at that time). 

So I wouldn't take the article as a very reliable sketch of the anarchist scene as a whole.

As one example I was a little surprised to read about the Solidarity meeting. My perception at the time, as someone who read their stuff and was interested, was that at the end of the 70s (in contrast to earlier years) London Solidarity had no public presence at all. When events kicked off in Poland in 1980-81 they seemed to suddenly burst into life as if they had come out of hibernation. In '79 they were certainly not as active in the wider 'libertarian movement' as they had been in the past.

The mention of Ramsey and Bread 'n Roses made me chuckle. The Bread 'n Roses typesetting collective were close to the collective which had produced Zero Magazine during 1977-78. At the start of '78 the Zero collective (who amongst other things had design and production skills), and the collective which produced Anarchy Magazine (who had their own garage press), had discussed jointly squatting premises and combining their resources. This all fell apart at a conference in the spring of '78 when members of Zero Collective, who had taken up anarcha-feminist positions, strongly denounced other sections of the anarchist movement. There was certainly no shortage of 'beat generation' arseholes among other kinds of misogynists around at the time who deserved everything they got. However in the time honoured way the most intense fire was directed at people much closer at hand, including some, like Anarchy, who IMO didn't really deserve it. 

(As the first public manifestation of this row died down in one conference room, another row could be heard next door. This turned out to have been caused by an idiot, who subsequently aligned himself with Zero, who was giving a presentation about how Heidegger was really an anarchist. He was being shouted down by members of the embryonic Monday Group one of whose founders was in the Anarchy collective). 

The rift between Anarchy and Zero became quite acrimonious, and had some long term consequences, including the decision by Anarchy to take on a commercial sublet rather than squat when starting up Little @ printers. In hindsight I rather doubt the two groups would have found it easy to work together, even if they hadn't fallen out. However the row was not of long duration. Zero ceased publishing later in '78, and the spirit of widespread co-operation during the Persons Unknown events led to a suspension of hostilities. 

Not before Ramsey was heard publicly stating that a member of the Anarchy Collective had been in the Angry Brigade. This crossed a clearly defined line, and the person named went round and thumped him.

A while ago discussing the recent Bookfair rows with an old friend the Anarchy-Zero row came up as a point of comparison. We agreed the differences between them were far greater than any points in common. (The most substantial one we could see being the tendency of some anarchists (and political activists in general), then and now, to relate to other struggles - of feminists in the 70s, of the Trans communities more recently - as overwhelmingly an issue of political positioning).

The 70s were very unlike the present day, and IMO there are very significant differences between anarchist currents then and now. (If that looks like it might be some kind of defence of the past it's really not intended to be). But some things haven't changed quite as much, and one of them is that liberal sketch writers may produce interesting texts but generally don't produce very reliable history.


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## imposs1904 (Nov 9, 2019)

Lurdan said:


> and one of them is that *liberal sketch writers* may produce interesting texts but generally don't produce very reliable history.



A bit unfair to characterize Walker as a liberal sketch writer. Immediately before writing for New Society, he was part of the collective that produced The Leveller magazine.


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## Lurdan (Nov 9, 2019)

imposs1904 said:


> A bit unfair to characterize Walker as a liberal sketch writer. Immediately before writing for New Society, he was part of the collective that produced The Leveller magazine.



Known to some of us at the time as The Groveller, and in the context of the Persons Unknown trial the publication whose writer about the trial seemed the most determined to take an 'independent-minded' and 'objectively' hostile approach to the defendents. I fear I must plead guilty to still holding my own biases towards it. 

I didn't mean 'liberal sketch writer' as anything other than a statement of fact. But now you point that background out...


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## imposs1904 (Nov 9, 2019)

Lurdan said:


> Known to some of us at the time as The Groveller, and in the context of the Persons Unknown trial the publication whose writer about the trial seemed the most determined to take an 'independent-minded' and 'objectively' hostile approach to the defendents. I fear I must plead guilty to still holding my own biases towards it.
> 
> I didn't mean 'liberal sketch writer' as anything other than a statement of fact. But now you point that background out...



Fair enough. 

Before my time but I've always had a soft spot for Walker, and as he's no longer around to defend himself I feel contractually obliged to pipe up for him whenever he gets a mention.


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## Rob Ray (Nov 10, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Most pertinent and useful wake up call from 40 years ago.



In that it reminds us the anarchist movement has always had loads of grumpy sectarians shouting at each other and they shouldn't be taken too seriously by people keen to actually get things done?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2019)

With PKK festishists and labour types. Yes.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Sounds like the Jessie Dog issues of a few years back where a poster was shockingly found to be neither female nor a dog. I always assumed Rhyddical was a she rather than a he. Must be a word for it. I suppose "wrong" will do.


Pretty sure they identified themselves as female on this thread...


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2019)

They are definitely male


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2019)

Don't recall Ramsey, ( correct spelling) but not his real name, cos he got the monicker Ramsey  cos he played a bit of (not very good) keyboards) after Ramsey Lewis, being thumped by anyone. He's now in NZ, but I am in contact with him and will ask him. The Ian Walker article is pretty dire and derisory, . I knew all of the people mentioned BTW. Just a nasty bit of very snide journalism


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2019)

And "Michael" now lives on the Isle of Man


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## Lurdan (Nov 10, 2019)

charlie mowbray said:


> Don't recall Ramsey, ( correct spelling) but not his real name, cos he got the monicker Ramsey  cos he played a bit of (not very good) keyboards) after Ramsey Lewis, being thumped by anyone. He's now in NZ, but I am in contact with him and will ask him.



I'm sure there's another side to the story and it would be interesting to hear it. I was at the conference but not the 'thumping', and recalling that my ageing and entirely fallible memory isn't always to be trusted in matters of 40 year old movement gossip I pulled out my copies of Zero and Anarchy :

From Zero 7 (cover dated Aug/Sept '78)


Spoiler: Zero item












And in Anarchy 27 (undated but evidently late summer/autumn '78)


Spoiler: Anarchy response











I guess we can at least take heart from the fact that however uncomradely things sometimes seem today at least it's not like the bad old days. From a book review in Anarchy 38 (undated - 1986?)


Spoiler: Anarchy 38


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 11, 2019)

Reminder that the milieu around both the Anarchy and Zero collectives was infiltrated by The Fuzz:



If ‘Graham Coates’ rings any bells, do get in touch with your friendly local _Non-State Non-Police Core Participant_ group...

Campaign Opposing Police Surveillance - An alliance of people spied on by Britain's political secret police
Spycops Targets: a Who's Who ~ Undercover Research Group
Police Spies Out of Lives


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 11, 2019)

That article in Anarchy is appalling. Di Giovanni was a nasty individualist shit, and the editor of La Protesta that he murdered was actually on the left of anarcho-syndicalism. Whoever wrote that piece should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

rat said:


> And why does he use such corny lingo in his posts?
> Very unconvincing



Corny Lingo? I maybe scarred for life here.

Who am I trying to convince? What am I trying to convince them off?

I created a personal Twitter so that I could liase with the various contributors to to Organise! and yes, even attendees of Bookfair 2020, so it's sort of helpful to have that in the bio no? I mean shame on me for the odd hot take but to be honest I think it's really just a bit of accountability and openness.

Speaking of accountability? Did you actually make a new account to ressurect a dead thread and spew some ad hom? Atleast you chose the right name eh?


(Actually edit that. Rats are lovely fluffy little fuckers and I've no hate for 'em ;p )


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

Anyways, let's address the comment there about ID Politics, because it's an imporant one, this is just my hot take to be fair tho I suspect we'll put a FAQ type response up that's a little better written and from "the  collective".

It's a stickler isn't it. How to involve your black comrades, gay comrades, trans comrades etc without someone turning around and saying that their presence is detracting from the revolutionary working class anarchism. 

Like quite literally their very presence. It's a shitty thing and it happens.

All the more if they dear to talk about specific aspects of oppression that affect them due to their skin tone, sexuality, gener etc etc

Idpol is a very real problem in the oprganiser scene, but also a quick way to undermine someone who faces issues around an aspect of their identity.

Let us be clear. We have no time for identity based politics, I don't think anyone in the collective has expressed a political base in the cross class bullshit of formed and organised Identiity politics, if they did, we'd probably let them know that this isn't going to be a positive space for them to organise in. However to steal a good line from the AF's Principles "We believe that fighting systems of oppression that divide the working class, such as racism and sexism, is essential to class struggle. Anarchist communism cannot be achieved while these inequalities still exist. In order to be effective in our various struggles against oppression, both within society and within the working class" So when we had some Anarchism comrades approach us and say they feel alienated from the movement, and given that the fallout from 2017 generated the same sentiment we feel obliged to take that seriously.

As the host for a major Anarchist event, how do we approach making an event more welcoming to comrades whose perhaps most imminant concern is one of identity? How do we provide a space for discussion and development without dictating the voice of others?

We have to have a relativelyy open foroum, encourage a bit of political osmosis perhaps? Try to ensure our voice doesn't come from a single source / position? Those seem like relatively good Anarchistic manners no?

We have no intention of hosting stalls with an IdPol basis but we will not reject the concerns of alientated comrades out of hand, that's only going to maintain this ugly rift in our communities.

Revolutionary working class Anarchism is - I hope - strong enough to get the fuck over itself and stop latching onto the priggishness that means a quick death for the movement.

There will be black anarchists, there will be queers anarchists, there will be trans anarchists and probably a hole bunch of people not quite "Anarchist" enough for some others but you know what, it's the people who are locking into IDPol, or who are a bit Tankie or AnCappy that we need to be winning over (I say a bit mind lol) These are folks who got into movements that are problematic and they've made the effort to come and here some of the differant opinions.


If you are expecting a bookfair with only Anarchist Communists present, all of whom have passed the purity tests and answer the interview questions right then you are going to be a bit disappoint, sorry.

Alternatively, why don't we actually ressurect the chat with something useful? I would love to hear your thoughts on how such an event can provide a welcome to Anarchist comrades who feel alienated due to such issues without letting any IdPol BS slip through the net? The two commentors from the LABC in particular, would love to hear your thoughts and like I say, the offer of a coffee and a friendly chit chat stands. We're not here to be aggy and have drama, We're here to put on a cracking bookfair for all and I recon we could better do that if we all acted like comrades every now and again eh?

(apologies for anything corny ;p)


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

Corkey, didn't see a whole other page.

Thanks for the link/article, love a good read and learn a bit more everyday.



Just for a bit of rumour control.... Yes I am male - fecking shocker -

My name is Peter as it says on my Twitter account. Kept that hidden didn't I.

Any more personal information you'd like to share about me on the notable - open to everyone - Anarchist forum where I've stated I'm organising a bit of a to-do?

Some of you have met me, (as have atleast 2/3 other people on channel), you know who I am and no doubt can recollect a few more personal details. Fancy linking my facebook or giving my email addy maybe or link any of my other wee enterprises while you're at it?

I'm sure it would help Rat or any other budding internet slouths - like the posse we've pick up from mumsnet - out a bunch eh?

Maybe being a tad dramatic there sure but that bit of mild doxxing of a uncomradely nature doesn't quite sit with me very well.

We'll have to have a workshop on Security Culture and how the little things pile up eh?


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## Athos (Nov 17, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Maybe being a tad dramatic there sure but that bit of mild doxxing of a uncomradely nature doesn't quite sit with me very well.



Give over, this is daft. Confirming your sex is hardly doxxing.  Especially since you included it in your publicly-visible profile!


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## Athos (Nov 17, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> How to involve your black comrades, gay comrades, trans comrades etc without someone turning around and saying that their presence is detracting from the revolutionary working class anarchism.
> 
> Like quite literally their very presence. It's a shitty thing and it happens.



Does this happen? I've never heard a single anarchist suggest anything even approaching that. And I'd be amazed if you could reliably cite a single example.

It's a strawman. I don't know a single anarchist who doesn't recognise the importance to anarchism of rejecting those things that might otherwise divide the working class.


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## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2019)

Rather disingenuous elision of stalls/organisers/events/core and attendees above in the purity test nonsense.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Rather disingenuous elision of stalls/organisers/events/core and attendees above in the purity test nonsense.



Sorry, not really sure I follow you. 

Assuming you have an issue with one or more of the attendees so far? Care to specify?

More than happy to hear any concerns.


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## Athos (Nov 17, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I would love to hear your thoughts on how such an event can provide a welcome to Anarchist comrades who feel alienated due to such issues without letting any IdPol BS slip through the net?



Not getting involved with Goldsmiths types.


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## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2019)

No, you really don't do you? My point was that you in your post(s) above  - basically a simplified version of the AF's adoption of identity politics under a veneer of being critical of identity politics - respond to criticisms of the event not actually being anarchist by pretending that the criticisms are criticisms of either non-anarchists or the wrong sort of anarchists (" black anarchists, there will be queers anarchists, there will be trans anarchists and probably a hole bunch of people not quite "Anarchist" enough for some others ") attendees rather than the people establishing then running a non-anarchist event under the title of anarchist event. It's a nice little trick as you leaves you defender of all the above wrong people who fail the purity test, rather than organiser of some labour-left fringe event.


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## chilango (Nov 17, 2019)

Here's the published list of attendees. I'm sure someone more plugged into the scene can do the Maths but there appears to be a sizeable proportion of "not strictly Anarchist" groups on the list (I don't have a problem with these groups, but that's not the issue).

Active Distribution
Activist Court Aid Brigade
AK Press (if in capacity)
Anarcho Agony Aunts
Anarchist Federation
Anarchist Studies Network
Art For Animals
Class War
Communist Workers Organisation
Community Action on Prison Expansion [CAPE]
Earth Strike
Empty Cages Collective
English Collective of Prostitutes
Fourth Wave: London Feminist Activists
Freedom Press
Green Anticapitalist Front
International of Anarchist Federations
Jewdas
Kolah Studio
London Anti-Fascist Assembly
Plan C
PM Press
Prisonism
Radical Anthropology Group
Reading Red Corner
Reel News/Final Hours
Seeds for Change
Smash IPP
We Shall Overcome!


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> No, you really don't do you? My point was that you in your post(s) above



Ah thanks for making yourself clear.

Allow me to be clear back, I am an Anarchist, Bookfair 2020 is an Anarchist event and there will be a variety of groups in attendance, some of which are not distinctly Anarchist, either in political identity or everyday practice, (thinking here various disabillity groups and animal rights groups as well as the previously mentioned) much like every other bookfair Including the London Anarchist Bookfairs which have proceeded it.

I am actually very critical of Identity Politics and if I was taking the time to write in a more substantial manner that would be clear, I personally (and the bookfair collective itself) have absolutely no intention of it being a event that plays host to Identity based politics. Tho rather telling of our times, some of the attendees may be more favourable to Labour than myself. I mean that's just the reality of the scene right now which is pretty sad, but hey perhaps being around some solid Anarchist comrades and our politics you'd hope to sway such groups further Anarchistic in their political organising.

You specifically mentioned the stalls and stuff, so I'm trying to gather whether you think any of them are founded in cross class IdPol?

No one needs me or anyone else to be their defender and if my curtish manner after a long night of work doesn't make that clear my apologies.


I think if we were to be purely an Anarchist event, we'd be rather small! Would we even have the IWW or Smash IPP? I certainly think thats a curious hairshirt that we can't push onto any bookfair.

Tho perhaps something that might apply to events like The Anarchist Festival which can make it work with it's extended timeline and decentralised nature.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Here's the published list of attendees. I'm sure someone more plugged into the scene can do the Maths but there appears to be a sizeable proportion of "not strictly Anarchist" groups on the list (I don't have a problem with these groups, but that's not the issue).



Probably worth a note that these are groups which either contacted us to request a stall, that we are involved with ourselves or that we spoke with in a casual manner rather than a illustration of the ratio of "Anarchist/Non-Anarchist" on the invite list which we will be using to send out invites in Jan/Feb.

The list of stalls refused is already is probably equal in length.

We have an "informal policy" of three green lights from collective members with everyone able to block, raise objections about any requests. Given we're a reasonably diverse bunch this has so far done us good stead, however if anyone has specific issues we should pay attention too with any of the groups, feel free to DM me or the Bookfair on any of the social media and we'll review.


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## Rob Ray (Nov 17, 2019)

I expect it'll be in process at some point, but on pro-active asking around for groups (it'd be a shame if anarchist groups were turned away because of prior applications by non-anarchist ones) the 2017 list is probably worth a consult. I've C&P'd from the stalls announcement from that year below.

Also for folks complaining about there being non-anarchist groups on the list it's worth noting how many were included in that same lineup. Finally, I think it's worth noting the different sizes of project involved here. The new bookfair is a first try, and starting out on a smaller scale, so while yes they are doing a London Anarchist Bookfair, investing in it or judging it as a straightforward continuation of the original is a bit pointless:

Active Distribution www.activedistributionshop.org
Advisory service for Squatters www.squatter.org.uk
AK Press www.akuk.com
Anarchist Action www.anarchistaction.net
Anarchist Federation www.afed.org.uk
Anarchist Studies www.lwbooks.co.uk/anarchist-studies
Animal Lib Front Supporters Group www.alfsg.org.uk
Angry Workers' World www.angryworkersworld.wordpress.com
Anti Capitalist Art Group
Anti-Fascist Network
Art for Animals
Autonomedia/Minor Compositions www.autonomedia.org
The Autonomous Centre of Edinburgh


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## Rob Ray (Nov 17, 2019)

Banned in Braille
Berkshire Antifascists Merch from Berkshire Antifa
Black Rose Books www.blackrosebooks.com
Brett Henning
(Brighton) NFA Residents NFA Residents Association
Brighton Anarchist Black Cross & The Bottled Wasp Pocket Diary
Brighton Solfed www.solfed.org.uk
Bristol Radical History Group www.brh.org.uk

Campaign Against Arms Trade www.caat.org.uk
Camp Wild Forest Obóz dla Puszczy
Cambridge Climate Action
Chronos Publications
CIRA Marseille cira.marseille.free.fr
CNT France CNT - Secrétariat International
COPS/Undercover Research Group Campaign Opposing Police Surveillance - An alliance of people spied on by Britain's political secret police
Communist Workers' Organisation www.leftcom.org
Consented consented.co.uk
Corporate Watch www.corporatewatch.org
Cowley Books
Critisticuffs www.critisticuffs.org
Cubesville Cubesville.uk
Cunningham Amendment

Datacide Datacide
Dog Section Press
DPAC (Disabled People Against Cuts) www.dpac.uk.net
Dissident Island Radio & LARC www.dissidentisland.org
DIY Space for London www.diyspaceforlondon.org
Dywizjon 161 www.pozordistro.co.uk

Earth First UK www.earthfirstgathering.org
Edinburgh Chiapas Solidarity
Elephant Editions & Actforfree www.actforfree.nostate.net
Empty Cages Collective www.prisonabolition.org
Endnotes www.endnotes.org.uk

Feminist Fightback www.feministfightback.org.uk
Feminist Library www.feministlibrary.co.uk
Freedom Press Freedom Press

Global Women's Strike www.globalwomenstrike.net
Greek Anarchist poet (Katerina Gogou)

Haringey Justice for Palestinians www.hjfp.org.uk
Housmans Radical Booksellers www.housmans.com
Haringey Solidarity Group
Hydra Bookshop


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## Rob Ray (Nov 17, 2019)

International Marxist-humanist Organisation www.internationalMarxisthumanist.org
London Wobblies www.iww.org.uk

Jewdas www.jewdas.org

Kate Sharpley Library www.katesharpleylibrary.net
Kebele BASE Community Co-Op | Base for Anarchy & Solidarity in Easton

LCAP - Housing Action Southwark and Lambeth
LDMG
LibEd www.libed.org.uk
London Catholic Worker www.londoncatholicworker.org

MayDay Rooms www.maydayrooms.org/
Merlin Press www.merlinpress.co.uk
Movement Communiste/KpK www.mouvement-communiste.com

Netpol: The Network for Police Monitoring www.netpol.org
No Borders
NELS - North East London Hunt Saboteurs
Northern Herald Books
No Sweat/ Punk Ethics/ Pride Punx / Influx Press www.nosweat.org.uk
Now Or Never www.nowornever.org.uk

The Occupied Times of London (Base Publication) www.basepublication.org

Past Tense www.pastenseblog.wordpress.com
Peace in Kurdistan Campaign Peace in Kurdistan
Peace News www.peacenews.info
Peace Pledge Union www.ppu.org.uk
PipDW Books
Plan C London
Pirate Press
PM Press - UK www.pmpress.org
Princesa Pirata www.princesapiratadistro.wordpress.com
ProjecteUter Projecte Úter
Propagate collective propagatecollective.tumblr.co

Queen Mob Collective & Contrabanda

Radical History NE London
Reel News www.http://reelnews.co.uk/
Rising Tide www.risingtide.org.uk

Seeds for Change www.seedsforchange.org.uk
Solidarity Not Charity
South Essex Stirrer The South Essex Stirrer - Archive
Sparrows Nest The Sparrows' Nest Library and Archive - Welcome to The Sparrows' Nest, Nottingham
Sto citas - anti politica www.stocitas.org

Theory and Practice www.theoryandpractice.org.uk

United Voices of the World the union www.uvwunion.org.uk

Wedoria Chronicles www.wedoria.com/chronicles
Winter Oak www.winteroak.org.uk
Wolf Press www.maxhertzberg.co.uk
World saving worms (Childrens Book) https://www.kevindoyle.ie/


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## chilango (Nov 17, 2019)

As I said, I don't have any particular problem with the group's on the list. Some of them are of more interest to me than the explicitly Anarchist ones. So it's not a complaint. It's more an observation.


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## ska invita (Nov 17, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I expect it'll be in process at some point, but on pro-active asking around for groups (it'd be a shame if anarchist groups were turned away because of prior applications by non-anarchist ones) the 2017 list is probably worth a consult. I've C&P'd from the stalls announcement from that year below.
> 
> Also for folks complaining about there being non-anarchist groups on the list it's worth noting how many were included in that same lineup. Finally, I think it's worth noting the different sizes of project involved here. The new bookfair is a first try, and starting out on a smaller scale, so while yes they are doing a London Anarchist Bookfair, investing in it or judging it as a straightforward continuation of the original is a bit pointless:
> 
> ...


Missing D-H from that list?


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## redsquirrel (Nov 17, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> It's a stickler isn't it. How to involve your black comrades, gay comrades, trans comrades etc without someone turning around and saying that their presence is detracting from the revolutionary working class anarchism.


Frankly this type of shit is why I have very little time for you. It is just totally dishonest. No one has said any such thing and either you are too stupid to realise that or too dishonest to care.

EDIT: FTR rat's comment was total twattery.
I was a bit unfair above but you can't claim to want a sensible discussion of identity politics in communist/anarchist politics starting from the type of strawman you've created (not for the first time).


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## treelover (Nov 17, 2019)

can someone inform what has happened to London Coalition Against Poverty, which surely hasn't gone away?


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## Rob Ray (Nov 17, 2019)

It was in decline well before 2017, pretty much defunct as far as I know. Various former members are still around in different contexts.

ska invita oh yeah fixed ta.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2019)

.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Frankly this type of shit is why I have very little time for you. It is just totally dishonest.



You know what, being hands up honest... I'm blaming this thread for more explicit commentary elsewhere and it was 8am n I hadn't had any sleep.

I was also ticked off because of the way the thread was ressurected. 

I'm still not sure what "goldsmiths types" is supposed to mean but it seems to me what they are saying is "Comrades who are black" or who care about black politics and thus in the mind of some, can be dismissed as IdPol. Maybe I'm reading a little much into the vagueries there but the post linked, that got people saying "meh IdPol". - Maybe I am stupid - reads "Our black comrades don't feel welcome, how can we make the space better for them?" and when someone goes goes "WTf is this IdPol shit?" then tbh yeah I do think they are essentially turning around and saying that the presence of comrades who may have a focus on issues that affect them based on aspects of their identity is detracting from all the revolutionary working class anarchism. 

I've had way to much of that shite these past few months and thus, perhaps my low tolerance and quick turn of phrase there. Maybe you all live in a better bubble than I but sadly there are plenty of comrades who genuinely are so dismissive of black/gay/trans etc comrades and they react in a very similar manner and given the 20 odd pages of "is making a space welcoming to Trans people not just IdPol, It's not Anarchist to ban people *oh what's your definition of bigot then eh?" you can see why I've little interest in 20 pages of "talking about the specific issue that affect black comrades? This isn't Anarchist, it's some far left Labour fringe event" or whatever it was.



TBH I'm not here to win the "bestest more patient" Anarchist awards. I'm here to answer a few questions about Bookfair not make some bezzie buds. Frankly it's irreleveant whether you think I'm an arse,  Maybe I am, I'm assured I'm much better company over a pint ;p Either way the relevative qualities of my personality has very little to do with the Anarchist bookfair. This isn't Rhyddical's hootnany and Anarchy fun time, It's a collective effort. I'm just here stand around in hi vis looking oh so very pretty.

This is a collective effort, the blog post is an honest accounting of the meeting. If anyone has concerns that it's all a bit IdPol, tell us why and we'll stick it on the list to have a natter about next time... at the end of the day the proof of the pudding is when you come along to bookfair, see 90% of the same stalls again, find some new things you like and some new things you don't and go "fair enough, it's just a standard Anarcho bookfair" instead of whatever weird Labour, let's be Marxist, IdPol obsessed anti anarchy, probably secretly loving Stalin celebnration of the police state parade with a bouncy council  some of you seem to think we're hosting.

Frankly the lack of comradely support and the personality assault is just a wee bit boring and I've got a game to play brother (Stellaris and Scum ;p)

There is an Anarchist Bookfair coming up, you should come it'll be fun, there will be books, talks and some music n shit. If you don't like it, it's not the end of the world. It'll be better than nothing and there will be cake.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> the 2017 list is probably worth a consult.



Cheers bud.
Our current invite list is five pages long ;p I cant say I know every one of these groups but I suppose they get a extra tick by merit of being previously welcome and such.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 17, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> You know what, being hands up honest... I'm blaming this thread for more explicit commentary elsewhere and it was 8am n I hadn't had any sleep.


See you say something like this that is perfectly reasonable and which I could accept - if in the next paragraph you didn't come out with the below (my emphasis)


Rhyddical said:


> I've had way to much of that shite these past few months and thus, perhaps my low tolerance and quick turn of phrase there.* Maybe you all live in a better bubble* than I but sadly there are plenty of comrades who genuinely are so dismissive of black/gay/trans etc comrades and they react in a very similar manner .


Yes, everyone who disagrees with views is living in a bubble. If you don't want to address peoples points fine - then don't bother but don't pretend that you are willing to discuss these issues when you aren't.


Rhyddical said:


> Frankly the lack of comradely support and the personality assault is just a wee bit boring and I've got a game to play brother (Stellaris and Scum ;p)


You've repeatedly misrepresented people's positions on this thread and _you're_ talking about a lack comradely support.


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## Athos (Nov 17, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ... it seems to me what they are saying is "Comrades who are black" or who care about black politics and thus in the mind of some, can be dismissed as IdPol... I do think they are essentially turning around and saying that the presence of comrades who may have a focus on issues that affect them based on aspects of their identity is detracting from all the revolutionary working class anarchism.
> 
> ... there are plenty of comrades who genuinely are so dismissive of black/gay/trans etc comrades...
> 
> ... "talking about the specific issue that affect black comrades? This isn't Anarchist, it's some far left Labour fringe event"



You're either incredibly stupid or entirely dishonest (or both).

Literally nobody on this thread has come even close to saying what claim (and even purport to quote).


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## Rhyddical (Nov 17, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> See you say something like this that is per...



We all live in a bubble tho do we not? I said "better" bubble, because I live in one too.
It seems some (reading the 27 pages) here have never encountered Anarchists who are actually rather racist or transphobic (or atleast act this way) and thus respond like such a thing as implausable and suggest our defensive protocols a bit much. That has been a general tone of the entire thread.
Unfortuantly The collective HAS to account for the sad reality that some who would call themselve comrade are actually pretty shitty people with bigotry masked behind anarchist rhetoric. They are keen to disengage from the discussion and politics of black comrades or trans comrades because of their ill ease with such diversity and often mask it up in anarchistic language. This is the bubble I've been thrust into and the one I am living in.

Even if you're own bubble - hum whats a better word, sphere of influence? Community?  idk... - lacks this dark spectre, I'm sure you can understand that i exists and be something others are dealing with.

Saying all that I'm not sure I agree that I am misreprenting people's positions.
If I've misunderstood them fair enough, hands up.


It seems to me that certain members of this thread are concerned that our blog post which talks about making Anarchism more accessable for People of Colour is a slip into IdPol, especially given our much maligned position of making the space Trans friendly (a policy which has reams of copy here saying is Liberal/IdPol) and is thus, not actually about Anarchism. Essentially that we should ignore the whole "black Anarchists don't feel welcome" conversation we were having because I'm/we/(they?) arn't actually Anarchist at all because this is IdPol.

Is this not the position it would seem they hold?  Is that the starting point of the discussion here? If not, maybe I'm too stupid to understand, please use small words and correct me.



To my mind, I think I understood and have asked which group raising these concerns is one based in Identity Politics? Who exactly are we concerned about here?
Who am I misrepresenting? I think we all agree that IdPol can take a long walk of a short cliff, a deeply broken aspect of the political scene which undermines worker class solidarity and plays to the hands of capitalists and liberal aspects of the state so, let's discuss the bit where "black Anarchists don't feel welcome" without someone telling me I'm/we/they are not Anarchist?


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## redsquirrel (Nov 19, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We all live in a bubble tho do we not? I said "better" bubble, because I live in one too.


Something of an aside but this seems a rather strange view for a class based anarchist to take. Surely the point of communist politics is universality, that we don't live in isolated bubbles but in interacting communities. Yes those communities might differ but at heart they are not separate in the way bubbles are. 



Rhyddical said:


> It seems some (reading the 27 pages) here have never encountered Anarchists who are actually rather racist or transphobic (or atleast act this way) and thus respond like such a thing as implausable and suggest our defensive protocols a bit much. That has been a general tone of the entire thread.


I'm sorry once again this is a mischaracterisation. Who has made such a claim? I don't believe anyone on this thread has said any such thing. In fact a number of people have said the opposite. We all exist in a prejudiced society and are all (in part) a product of that society, and cannot escape the prejudices of society. Moreover, there are people on "the left" that hold explicitly racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic views.   

What people have taken issue with is your crude strawmen. For example


Rhyddical said:


> They are keen to disengage from the discussion and politics of black comrades or trans comrades because of their ill ease with such diversity and often mask it up in anarchistic language. This is the bubble I've been thrust into and the one I am living in.
> ....
> Essentially that we should ignore the whole "black Anarchists don't feel welcome" conversation we were having because I'm/we/(they?) arn't actually Anarchist at all because this is IdPol.


No one (on this thread) has made any such arguments. 

Personally I've never heard anyone claim that the presence of black/gay/trans comrades is "detracting from the revolutionary working class anarchism". Certainly no one on this thread has made any such argument. I've not read any left criticism of identity politics that is consistent with such a claim. So to raise it as if posters on this thread (or left wing critics of identity politics) are making such a claim is just dishonest.


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## rat (Nov 19, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> It's a stickler isn't it. How to involve your black comrades, gay comrades, trans comrades etc without someone turning around and saying that their presence is detracting from the revolutionary working class anarchism.
> 
> Like quite literally their very presence. It's a shitty thing and it happens.



When? Where? Who?


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## nyxx (Nov 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Goldsmith's students involved now. That report does read a bit ID politics-tastic too not surprisingly.



Please expand. 
Do you purport a link between this "id politics-tastic" development with the involvement of students from Goldsmiths?


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## Rhyddical (Nov 21, 2019)

Red Squirrel and Rat, I don't know whether you havn't bothered reading the thread or whether you are comfortable the mask of symantics but this threads origin literally started with the negation and undermining of the trans community but saying that providing a space they were safe and secure in was IdPol and "not anarchist". The more recent addition via the blog, that black anarchist feel similarly uncomforable and we should seek to make changes equally met with accusations of IdPol. I'm going to assume you genuinely think I'm deliberatly misinterpreting people to "win" a barny on the internet so can I ask...
Are you saying that labelling something as Idpol isn't saying that it's a detraction from Revolutionary Working Class Anarchism?

To my mind and that of most of my Anarchist Communist peers, Identity Politics are a detraction from Revolutionary Working Class Anarchism.

Labelling any voice or effort  to represent or provide security against bigots with "It's Idpol" it tantamount to saying making space for the tran/black community is counter RWCA.

So which is it?

Ahh no I get you.... you think I'm mischaracterising because there is a differance between trans people being present _(which no one has a problem with yeah?) _and transphobic bigots people being excluded to_ (apparently not Anarchist, maybe Idpol)_ and worse perhaps Trans people talking about issues which face trans people? _(definatly IdPol as labelled both here and elsewhere)_.......

So yeah ... I don't want to mischaracterise, you are right.

Trans people very welcome, no bigots here, everyone is comfortable with their presence.Not a detraction and no one is saying it is. cool.

Just don't talk about issues which effect you or be involved in the organising philosophy and we can't stop the bigots that abuse you either because that would be idpol, yes?

Is that right? I mean It REALLY seems like that is what certain people are saying here. _(and no I'm not tagging peoples comments and highlighting them for review and hostility - have a scroll if you are truly interested)_

Then we have the most recent development, ie the moment we talk about the diverse group of comrades ie the Goldsmiths Students a whole bunch of people jump back to It's Idpol...

Can someone point out the IdPol in the blog post? Becuase it looks like members of the thread are saying "they are black and talk about black issues within the Anarchist discussion and within the wider society" and this is IDPOL, thus a detraction from Revolutionary Working Class Anarchism.

Maybe less mischaracterisation and more the capacity to infer peoples meaning without bothering with all the polite and formal circumlocution.

I would love for someone to actually qoute the bit in the blog post that is Identity Politics.

Was it _"a discussion on the nature of Anarchistic events and how they can often feel exclusionary to black and minority ethnic comrades." _or perhaps_ "In building Bookfair 2020 we have to take into consideration the interests of comrades from across the Anarchist spectrum. We agreed in principle that our discussions and debates would be progressive in nature, seeking mutually beneficial solutions and this is something that we believe is needed in the wider movement as we seek to re-invigorate ourselves as a community", _no I know it was_ "We welcome thoughts and opinions from comrades on improving our practice. We’d love to hear your thoughts on ensuring bookfair and supplemental events are welcoming to all regardless of ancestry, capacity or identity."...._Yep we're obviously a bunch of liberals. Probably vote Labour and weld tofu.


Unfortunatly, this issue is made much more vocal and upfront on other places (FB and Twitter for example) tho I'm not going to go unblocking people just to get screen grabs I suspect you'd dismiss as tokenistic. There are some nasty shits out there and atleast a couple I've blocked on here for crossing the transphobia line too. Now nnot once, in any of our media or commentary have we endorse a cross class movement or one that is counter Anarchistic analysis in favour of a broad Identitiy one. Yet the mear mention of Trans people and Black people brought out the calls of IdPol, to my mind as a dogwhistle for the eye rolling so common in some of our comrades who would rather stick to the more traditional narratives of class organising in the UK.

There was a time not so long ago that Feminism and Queer politics had to fight for a space at the table and those movements had similar reactionary blathering put on them, as I'm sure you are aware.

To be fair to the thread, lots of people have much less unsavoury concerns or basis and that is why I havn't written it off. It is them folk I'm speaking too, the curious folk wanting to know more or who have questions about the organising.
Even many of our detractors wouldn't stoop to such outlanding and ridicolous statments as labelling all the things as Idpol.


----------



## Rhyddical (Nov 21, 2019)

Further - The casual acceptance of someone linking my personal Twitter on this thread (one which, let's be honest, includes some hostile folk), with my name an associated points of information seems like really shitty precident.


----------



## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Further - The casual acceptance of someone linking my personal Twitter on this thread (one which, let's be honest, includes some hostile folk), with my name an associated points of information seems like really shitty precident.



I missed that. I thought it was a link to the Bookfar2020 Twitter, no?


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## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ... this threads origin literally started with the negation and undermining of the trans community but saying that providing a space they were safe and secure in was IdPol and "not anarchist".



No it didn't.



Rhyddical said:


> Labelling any voice or effort  to represent or provide security against bigots with "It's Idpol" it tantamount to saying making space for the tran/black community is counter RWCA.



Nobody is saying that all efforts to provide security against bigots is necessarily idpol.



Rhyddical said:


> Trans people very welcome, no bigots here, everyone is comfortable with their presence.Not a detraction and no one is saying it is. cool.
> 
> Just don't talk about issues which effect you or be involved in the organising philosophy and we can't stop the bigots that abuse you either because that would be idpol, yes?
> 
> Is that right?



No.



Rhyddical said:


> I mean It REALLY seems like that is what certain people are saying here. _(and no I'm not tagging peoples comments and highlighting them for review and hostility - have a scroll if you are truly interested)._



And you can't, because there are no examples.

Your engagement with this thread continues in the same way.  You make outlandish claims (often with fabricated purported quotes), for which you fail to provide any evidence.

I really can't tell whether you're being deliberately dishonest, or that you simply don't understand what people are saying.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

I was always interested in anarchism, and seriously thought about going to some events to learn more (I read a couple of big names, Chomsky etc ad really liked what they had to say, but if this is what it is in reality then I think I'll stick with the tankies 

From the way this thread went, Anarchy sounds like a movement for bearded hipster wankers. Either that, that or its being captured by pomo nobs. 

Either way. Anarchists actually scare quite bit now. More than any other leftist group and tbh I can't think of anything more unappealing than being surrounded by a bunch of breying angry anarchists dudes. Mud sticks and bones take time to heal. 

Fuck this bookfair.


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## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

Lol sure, nothing problematic in the behaviour of the tankie scene, especially over the last couple of years. Nothing to see there at all.

Pulling that disingenuous bollocks out of your hat to try and make out anarchism is uniquely unpleasant because it's having an internal political argument when you've been around this long is just utter crap and you should be ashamed of your own transparency.


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## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

It's interesting (to me at least) to note the parallels between the issues of alleged transphobia in the Anarchist movement and alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue of definition is central.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Lol sure, nothing problematic in the behaviour of the tankie scene, especially over the last couple of years. Nothing to see there at all.



Must have missed my sarcastic grin. I don't belong to any particular movement.

The fact is tho, anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot. And if you think it's a case of "disengenouousness", then that's gonna be a problem of your movement, eh.

I know what my and others thoughts are. Up to you to acknowledge them or dismiss them. Not my problem, really.


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## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's interesting (to me at least) to note the parallels between the issues of alleged transphobia in the Anarchist movement and alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue of definition is central.



They're not similar circumstances. For a start, the Labour party is being deliberately hammered by the press over anti-Semitism while for transphobia it's the other way round, with pro-trans groups like Mermaids and Stonewall regularly being monstered.

Also if this turns into another fucking "I have the right to say X about trans people and not be told off" debate I'm gonna be off again for a while I think, it's so utterly tedious.


----------



## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I was always interested in anarchism, and seriously thought about going to some events to learn more (I read a couple of big names, Chomsky etc ad really liked what they had to say, but if this is what it is in reality then I think I'll stick with the tankies
> 
> From the way this thread went, Anarchy sounds like a movement for bearded hipster wankers. Either that, that or its being captured by pomo nobs.
> 
> ...



You can't sensibly judge a political philosophy by an online spat amongst a tiny number of people, about one event in one place at one time!

Yes, there's plenty of both those types, and an increasing battle for the soul of the movement (which, in my opinion the right side is losing).  But, there's still lots of sound comrades, and valuable activity.  And the ideas are interesting and relevant. 

And the tankies have some pretty dark shit of their own!


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## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> They're not similar circumstances. For a start, the Labour party is being deliberately hammered by the press over anti-Semitism while for transphosphorylation it's the other way round, with pro-trans groups like Mermaids and Stonewall regularly being monstered.
> 
> Also if this turns into another fucking "I have the right to say X about trans people and not be told off" debate I'm gonna be off again for a while I think, it's so utterly tedious.



Is that to me?


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Athos said:


> You can't sensibly judge a political philosophy by an online spat amongst a tiny number of people, about one event in one place at one time!



You say that, but I think the problem for all of us is that times are changing. The majority of political communication, whether we like it or not *is* done online.

There may still be offline groups doing work, but it seems to me that the way political discourse is being handled is spilling over into the real world and affecting the way we organise ourselves.

It has a massive impact and its time to acknowledge it. Its HOW we take things offline that's going to really matter. It ain't looking good is it?


And edit:

Let me reiterate, I am *genuinely* afraid of being beaten if I were to turn up to look around atan anarchist bookfair. And it's not because of what people from other factions have been saying. It's because I've been seeing what's been happening online spilling offline. I would go absolutely nowhere near this bookfair or anything anarchist tbf.

Some might want to shoot the messenger.


----------



## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's interesting (to me at least) to note the parallels between the issues of alleged transphobia in the Anarchist movement and alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue of definition is central.



My suspicion is that there's a small amount of truth in both (i.e. that a very few labour members are antisemites,  and a few purported anarchists are transphobes), but that, in both cases, that's deliberately and cynically exaggerated and weaponised by those who seek to dominate the movement.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot. And if you think it's a case of "disengenouousness", then that's gonna be a problem of your movement, eh.
> 
> I know what my and others thoughts are. Up to you to acknowledge them or dismiss them. Not my problem, really.



If you're making comparisons to the tankies, people who outright suck up to the Chinese Communist Party, make excuses for the likes of North Korea and have repeatedly backed Assad on some sort of anti-imperial realpolitik kick (let alone their domestic bullshit like backing Steve Hedley or giving space to Galloway for years knowing what a shitbreak he is) and end up saying anarchism is "the most unpleasant of the lot" because we're in the midst of a collective online argument then yeah, I'm going to call that disingenuous bullshit. You've been around for long enough to know better, I'm not going to sit here and try to persuade you of that.

Edit: Also you're not going to get beaten up at a bookfair, get over yourself. The organisers have been quite clear, if you started actively leafletting bigoted crap you'd simply be asked to leave, same as if you did so about any minority group. No-one's going to start flinging punches at random passers-by browsing books.


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## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> You say that, but I think the problem for all of us is that times are changing. The majority of political communication, whether we like it or not *is* done online.
> 
> There may still be offline groups doing work, but it seems to me that the way political discourse is being handled is spilling over into the real world and affecting the way we organise ourselves.
> 
> It has a massive impact and its time to acknowledge it. Its HOW we take things offline that's going to really matter. It ain't looking good is it?



That's true enough. But I don't think the polarising effect of online discourse is particular to (or even most acute in) anarchist discussion.  But, yes, it does concern me how this spills over into real life.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Athos said:


> My suspicion is that there's a small amount of truth in both (i.e. that a very few labour members are antisemites,  and a few purported anarchists are transphobes), but that, in both cases, that's deliberately and cynically exaggerated and weaponised by those who seek to dominate the movement.



That's the nub of it.


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## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Let me reiterate, I am *genuinely* afraid of being beaten if I were to turn up to look around atan anarchist bookfair. And it's not because of what people from other factions have been saying. It's because I've been seeing what's been happening online spilling offline. I would go absolutely nowhere near this bookfair or anything anarchist tbf.



Really?  Beaten by whom? Why?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Let me reiterate, I am *genuinely* afraid of being beaten if I were to turn up to look around atan anarchist bookfair. And it's not because of what people from other factions have been saying. It's because I've been seeing what's been happening online spilling offline. I would go absolutely nowhere near this bookfair or anything anarchist tbf.
> 
> Some might want to shoot the messenger.


tbh i would be absolutely astonished if you received anything more than a harsh look. how many people have you heard of being beaten at anarchist events? sure there's been the occasional encounters - i don't want to dignify them with the term scuffles - when there've been beefs between people. and of course there've been fascists vigorously removed. but any anticipation that you'd be assaulted seems to be a great misreading of the risk situation.


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## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

At great length.


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## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

No, FabricLiveBaby! you won't get beaten up at the Anarchist Bookfair.

...but I do, genuinely, think there's work to be done on making them more inclusive and welcoming.

Up thread we talked a little about making them more family friendly.

But there's other general aspects to think about too.

The last one I went to (2015? 2016?) I found quite "intimidating". It was busy, crowded, and, as a lone visitor, this coupled with dominance of young counter-cultural types meant thst I felt pretty excluded and found it really hard to actually chat to anyone at the stalls.

The meetings, however, were much better in these regards.


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## sunnysidedown (Nov 21, 2019)

They do things differently at US bookfairs.

_The Dangerous Space Policy was intended to create the conditions for anarchy. No one was banned, asked to behave or scolded by any organizer. Each individual acted according to their will and desire, accepting the consequences of their actions. People took conflict resolution into their own hands. Almost everyone was armed._


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in response.  It started pissing down with rain so I've legged it home.  Got my laptop now so hopefully I can give a proper typo free response that I don't have to edit after posting.



Athos said:


> Really?  Beaten by whom? Why?






Pickman's model said:


> there've been* beefs between people *and of course there've been* fascists vigorously removed* but any anticipation that you'd be assaulted seems to be a great misreading of the risk situation.



Ok, so yes really. By whom?  Obviously I can't name any individuals because I don't know any but I'd say it doesn't really matter that I don't know.  There are people on here that remember stuff said from years back (ney, even keep notes - weirdos- I'm told),  there are online groups actively trying to doxx people on line ALL THE TIME. All it would take is someone to recognise me from here, twitter, Facebook groups or whatever to start accusations going.  Now, I've never attended any terven meetings, never given money, never got money - I'm scary woman with online opinions.  But that is, and has been, enough.

I've seen online discourse from anarchists on here.  Lumping in scary terven thought with fascism.  I've seen it here on Urban - accusations of funding by the far right.  Accusations of right wing allies, and thus the insinuation being by extension anyone who agrees or sympathises or even has an understanding of the viewpoint is in bed with the religious right. Online anarchists banging on about how TERFS are NAZIS (type it into twitter for god's sake) and how TERFS get the boot. It's OK To punch NAZIs and it's OK to punch TERFs (or anyone accused of being one).

So someone clocks me, accuses me of TERFery, and thus Fascism.  Game on.  Get the fash. Fash get the boot.

Maybe it's hyperbole.  But we have seen women punched offline after such statements have been made.

And women keep ourselves safe first.  We know men won't do it.  We don't trust men to do it.  And we don't trust men to take it seriously.  I certainly don't trust the organiser of this bookfair to do it who happily partakes in similar smear campaigns and I ain't even an Anarchist.

No WAY would I step foot in there. No amount of promises that it won't happen would tempt me.  Not after what I read here and elsewhere. No way.  Women are risk averse and we have to be.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Hi guys, sorry for the delay in response.  It started pissing down with rain so I've legged it home.  Got my laptop now so hopefully I can give a proper typo free response that I don't have to edit after posting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


by people who know and hate each other offline, anarchists who have personal disputes





> Obviously I can't name any individuals because I don't know any but I'd say it doesn't really matter that I don't know.  There are people on here that remember stuff said from years back (ney, even keep notes - weirdos- I'm told),  there are online groups actively trying to doxx people on line ALL THE TIME. All it would take is someone to recognise me from here, twitter, Facebook groups or whatever to start accusations going.  Now, I've never attended any terven meetings, never given money, never got money - I'm scary woman with online opinions.  But that is, and has been, enough.
> 
> I've seen online discourse from anarchists on here.  Lumping in scary terven thought with fascism.  I've seen it here on Urban - accusations of funding by the far right.  Accusations of right wing allies, and thus the insinuation being by extension anyone who agrees or sympathises or even has an understanding of the viewpoint is in bed with the religious right. Online anarchists banging on about how TERFS are NAZIS (type it into twitter for god's sake) and how TERFS get the boot. It's OK To punch NAZIs and it's OK to punch TERFs (or anyone accused of being one).
> 
> ...


if you're not an anarchist, and tbh you don't seem anarcho-curious, i don't see why you'd really want to come to the bookfair.

your 'accusation of terfery' > 'accusations of fascism' > getting beaten up really doesn't ring true.

i ask again: how many people have you heard of being beaten at anarchist events?


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> by people who know and hate each other offline, anarchists who have personal disputes
> if you're not an anarchist, and tbh you don't seem anarcho-curious, i don't see why you'd really want to come to the bookfair.



Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago?  I said that I'd been curious about it in a previous post and had been interested in going before.

The rest is just the Pickmans's game of catch the weasel.  Not interested (edit:  in playing your game). 

 I've said how I feel about it, why I feel the way I do about it.  The fact that it doesn't ring true to you is moot.  Accusations of terfery do lead to accusations of fascism.  And we know that fascists are fair game.   The fact that it hasn't happened before doesn't mean that it *won't* happen.  I'm risk averse like most women.  I'm not going to put myself in line to be the first.  I doubt many like me will.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago?  I said that I'd been curious about it in a previous post and had been interested in going before.
> 
> The rest is just the Pickmans's game of catch the weasel.  Not interested.  I've said how I feel about it, why I feel the way I do about it.  The fact that it doesn't ring true to you is moot.  Accusations of terfery do lead to accusations of fascism.  And we know that fascists are fair game.   The fact that it hasn't happened before doesn't mean that it *won't* happen.  I'm risk averse like most women.  I'm not going to put myself in line to be the first.  I doubt many like me will.


so on the basis of er no fucking evidence whatsoever you think you'd get beaten at an event you say you were curious about in the past but - from everything you've posted - are no longer interested in.  btw you made up that doesn't ring true bit.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> are no longer interested in. btw you made up



For clarification, I'm not interested in playing your ridiculous game. I edited my post for clarity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> For clarification, I'm not interested in playing your ridiculous game. I edited my post for clarity.


the only ridiculous game going on here is your insistence that being beaten at the anarchist bookfair is a realistic concern. sure, there've been disagreements between people who knew each other. but i can't think of an instance where someone was beaten, be they anarchist or fascist. the occasional punch has been thrown between people who already knew and disliked each other. but tbh i don't suppose your absence will be greatly missed.

e2a: sorry, you were right about the ring true bit  but it's still a load of bollocks as the getting beaten thing just doesn't happen like that, like some sort of hue and cry like catch the fascist because people want some sort of confirmation before they batter someone silly.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I've seen online discourse from anarchists on here. Lumping in scary terven thought with fascism. I've seen it here on Urban - accusations of funding by the far right.



Ooh I really don't like that sort of tactic, where you take chatter on Urban around the exposure of well-known links between prominent terf groups and elements of the Christian and Far Right over trans rights and act as though highlighting these talking points is the same thing as labelling everyone with an opinion as paid-up fascists and therefore you feel personally at risk because you reckon some of your views might be labelled as such. Jumping from real to "scary violent anarchist trans warriors gonna beat up a defenceless woman" in three easy steps. Ugh.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Nice one boys.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Nice one boys.


it's always grand to see someone pop up, make a claim which doesn't have any actual basis in past experience, and then make out they've been vilely victimised.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's always grand to see someone pop up, make a claim which doesn't have any actual basis in past experience, and then make out they've been vilely victimised.



WTF.

I haven't claimed I've been victimised. What I'm doing is claiming the current online debate and the way it is being handled is putting off people like me that would otherwise attend because they fear that the threats may become reality and don't want to test the water.

I know fuck all about anarchism apart from what I see online (as videos, or text). I don't know anyone. AS DO Most. Do you as a movement want people to learn about what you are about or not? 

Why would anyone in my position show up when a) The rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary. b) there are threats of violence online for being fash/terf.

Laugh all you want, boys. Laugh it up. Good work.  True ambassadors to your cause you are. I'm sure you've made many people who are worried feel much better.

Now watch your movement magically grow and not disintegrate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> WTF.
> 
> I haven't claimed I've been victimised. What I'm doing is claiming the current online debate and the way it is being handled is putting off people like me that would otherwise attend because they fear that the threats may become reality and don't want to test the water.
> 
> ...


the rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary, she said after making unapologetically smeary posts.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

You've been on Urban75 (of all places) longer than I have, including on the politics board, are you seriously saying you know fuck all about anarchism and are suddenly being put off it via message board arguing after hanging in there for 15+ years? 

Genuinely baffled that you'd take the "casual put off of politics" route here.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the rhetoric is so unapologetically smeary, she said after making unapologetically smeary posts.



It's not smeary to say that terfs/fash are accused of being similar or one and the same. Would you like me to do a, search for you? Or would you prefer I spam this thread with 100s of images and blogs? I'm not going to, because you have fingers and can search yourself. 

My emotional reaction isn't a smear either. I'm just letting you know what that is. You can call it irrational if you like. I'm not sure it is.

Either way, you boys are patently angry about how I perceive things. But that isn't my problem really. If it's no loss to you, then it's no loss to me.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> You've been on Urban75 (of all places) longer than I have, including on the politics board, are you seriously saying you know fuck all about anarchism and are suddenly being put off it via message board arguing after hanging in there for 15+ years?
> 
> Genuinely baffled that you'd take the "casual put off of politics" route here.



I don't really post on the politics board much because it's quite aggressive and don't feel I know enough about it (anarchy) to get involved in meaty discussion without being told to fuck off and read a book (fair enough, really) , so, honestly, I haven't really learnt much from Anarchy on Urban apart from that you guys like to insult each other a lot. 

Most of my knowledge about Anarchism (and it really isn't much) comes from books/texts/videos.

Seriously.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> It's not smeary to say that terfs/fash are accused of being similar or one and the same. Would you like me to do a, search for you? Or would you prefer I spam this thread with 100s of images and blogs? I'm not going to, because you have fingers and can search yourself.
> 
> My emotional reaction isn't a smear either. I'm just letting you know what that is. You can call it irrational if you like. I'm not sure it is.
> 
> Either way, you boys are patently angry about how I perceive things. But that isn't my problem really. If it's no loss to you, then it's no loss to me.


the smear i was talking about was your nonsense about being beaten, when you've been unable to produce a single example of such happening.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

It's entirely smeary to characterise the existence of occasional headbangers as a) representative of "the anarchist movement" b) anything whatsoever to do with how the anarchist bookfair specifically is running its affairs. It's the mirror of if I picked out a handful of the (endless) Twitter threads which get jumped on by terfs calling people rapists, abominations, child mutilators etc and characterised that as representing your views. 

And I don't know who you think you're kidding when you say you don't post much, I've seen you around plenty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I don't really post on the politics board much because it's quite aggressive and don't feel I know enough about it (anarchy) to get involved in meaty discussion without being told to fuck off and read a book (fair enough, really) , so, honestly, I haven't really learnt much from Anarchy on Urban apart from that you guys like to insult each other a lot.
> 
> Most of my knowledge about Anarchism (and it really isn't much) comes from books/texts/videos.
> 
> Seriously.


about a quarter of your posts this year have been in politics forums (c.100/c.400)

also you don't need to post to be able to read threads


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> about a quarter of your posts this year have been in politics forums (c.100/c.400)
> 
> also you don't need to post to be able to read threads



Bollocks mate. There are about 700 posts in the political sub forum. That's LESS than 10% of my posts are in politics across the board. Most of those posts are about light (safe) topics like conspiraloonary/Richard dawkins/current affairs.

I only post about shit I know stuff about. And this year's been a stinker for it. 

Who you trying to kid?

I post about stuff I've been following online this year so now I'm supposed to have learnt about anarchism over my 15 years on this forum? 

Honestly just fuck off with your bad faith nonsense. You see everything I say as something to pick apart and your starting position is that I'm a fucking liar.

Why should I engage with someone who's there to dismiss what I say and pick holes to feel good about himself.

Go enjoy your movement, you sad SAD MAN.


----------



## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! I'd be very surprised if what you fear came to pass.  But I completely accept: i) that your fears are sincere; ii) that they are based on your good-faith interpretation of some of what can be observed; and, iii) that there are others who feel the same.  And that, in itself, is a problem for the anarchist 'movement.'  One that's not ameliorate by blokes telling you you're being ridiculous.


----------



## Athos (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! I'd be very surprised if what you fear came to pass.  But I completely accept: i) that your fears are sincere; ii) that they are grounded in your good-faith interpretation of what can be observed; and, iii) that there are others who feel the same.  And that, in itself, is a problem for the anarchist 'movement.'  One that's not ameliorated by blokes telling you you're being ridiculous.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 21, 2019)

Athos said:


> FabricLiveBaby! I'd be very surprised if what you fear came to pass.  But I completely accept: i) that your fears are sincere; ii) that they are grounded in some if what can be observed; and, iii) that there are others who feel the same.  And that, in itself, is a problem for the anarchist 'movement.'  One that's not ameliorate by blokes telling you you're being ridiculous.



Thank you. I'm out of here now. These guys are too annoying.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 21, 2019)

Sorry you're so angry, all the best with your future endeavours jumping on threads to accuse people of being violent bullies with no evidence and characterising their politics as worse than Stalinism while inaccurately portraying yourself as some sort of terrified political neophyte, which definitely isn't annoying behaviour at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Bollocks mate. There are about 700 posts in the political sub forum. That's LESS than 10% of my posts are in politics across the board. Most of those posts are about light (safe) topics like conspiraloonary/Richard dawkins/current affairs.


you have posted 443 times this year. of those 135 posts are in the various politics forums. which is 30.5%, so i was a mite off at 1/4.



> I only post about shit I know stuff about.
> 
> Who you trying to kid?
> 
> ...


my starting point hasn't been you're a fucking liar. but after looking at the baseless accusations in your posts it shall be from now on.


----------



## Rhyddical (Nov 21, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> The fact is tho, anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot.



while I have a beard, I'm not particularly angry as a soul ;p

TBH Anarchism is 90% fucking wonderful, with some rainy showers in the more traditionalist vanguard and a very particular cess pool locatin around the South Est that even folk on this thread - however much we disagree - would surely agree it's fucking BS... TBh I'm not even sure the proper transphobes like Bindel n co would even say they are Anarchist IDK.

I think the differances between Anarchism and other similar social movements is that we are deeply passionate and wear our politics upfront.... Unlike Labour and SWP types, we don't hide shit away fromt he public until someone outs us and we're forced to do something, I think it's one of the key things about Anarchism that folk misunderstand, and that is that we actually deal with and (try to) process the bullshit that crops up.... to some folk it probably seems uncivil but 99% of the time it's a really good way to live your life.

I guess it's worth point out as well that Labour, Marxists, etc all have similar dramas but they just call the cops to kick folk out...we're trying to find differant, better solutions, and that can sometimes be a hard discussion.

I'd spend some time in the real world with some anarchos instead of judging an entire political movement by this tiny little online thread mate x


----------



## Rhyddical (Nov 21, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> They do things differently at US bookfairs.
> 
> _The Dangerous Space Policy was intended to create the conditions for anarchy. No one was banned, asked to behave or scolded by any organizer. Each individual acted according to their will and desire, accepting the consequences of their actions. People took conflict resolution into their own hands. Almost everyone was armed._




this hasn't been my experiance of american Anarchist bookfairs. Which ones specifically? This sound very Libertarian right / Individualist and would be poision to those without the power of force... 

The bookfairs tendancy is Anarchist Communist as an entity and while that isn't try of all attendees our core organising mechanic is to meet the needs of the individual and the community respectively.

fuck the dog eat dog stuff.


----------



## Rhyddical (Nov 21, 2019)

Re-reading some of that commentary, I feel we should make something clear.

No one is going to get beaten up.

It is a long way off, but this is our pencilled in security system so far.

The primary point of contact and problem solving will be comrades in high vis with conflict resolution skills who will be there in a general capacity to help people navigate the place, find stalls, access the additional support for autistic people etc etc..
We are also having a comradely organisation, primarily composed of women some of whom hold SIA badges and who have experiance in managing crowds as our primary security. This isn'trandom security guards but politically aware and approachable comrades who can handle themselves should any palathra start up.
The venue will also have SIA security with a minimal presence, but available as per their insurance requirements, tho taking over as we go into the evening.

Response to conflict will be swift and focused on calming any possible situation. Whether that stems from fash, transphobic groups, a barny between comrades or someone having a stress. We will be taking a forward approach guidied by comrades with the relative training and experiance. 

This will go both ways, anyone randomly accosting someone with violence will get chucked out, whether you think there politics are shite or not, we won't be toleratant of it and will be asking anyone with concerns to contact one of the team and have them deal with a situation.

We will almost certainly have a designated room for those who just need some chill the fuck down time.

So yeah, no one is getting beaten up, neither will we sit idly by and let a situation brew by not intervening. We have a responsibility to all the people who attend and expect that mutual respect to be something we all take onboard.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

One of the more  prominent bookfair organisers is currently screenshotting posts from this thread and posting them on facebook  - fabriclivebaby is being called 'some terf' in them etc. This is the second lot after doing the same on sunday/monday posts to other posters. So that's good then.


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## LDC (Nov 21, 2019)

Where is that butchersapron I can't see it on the Bookfair 2020 FB page? Ah, maybe you mean their own page?


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## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Where is that butchersapron I can't see it on the Bookfair 2020 FB page?


It's on their own account i believe.


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## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Where is that butchersapron I can't see it on the Bookfair 2020 FB page? Ah, maybe you mean their own page?



Ditto.


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## ska invita (Nov 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> Ditto.


It's on one of the (feeling attacked and defensive) organisers  personal pages.
But is adding to this now cross platform beef worth it?

No


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## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> It's on one of the (feeling attacked and defensive) organisers  personal pages.
> But is adding to this now cross platform beef worth it?
> 
> No



Course not.

But it's a bit off having a conversation I'm part of (hopefully in a generally respectful and constructive manner) being screenshotted elsewhere where I can't see what's being said.

*shrugs*

I've no beef with Rhyddical and genuinely want to see the Bookfair return as a success, but that shouldn't mean I can't discuss concerns with it. No?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> I've no beef with Rhyddical and genuinely want to see the Bookfair return as a success, but that shouldn't mean I can't discuss concerns with it. No?


You can do what you want and are best judge of that ... But here's an event that hasn't happened yet, a year away even, we all know how fragile it is, and here's a 30 page full of griping. That's on top of griping the organisers seem to be getting from other corners. Plus insults.

What would help most to make this event happen? Is there really that much need for more public "concerns"? The most recent concerns have been a hypothetical getting beaten up and that someone from Goldsmiths exists within range of the bookfair. Mainly feels massively counter productive to me


----------



## rat (Nov 21, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> We will almost certainly have a designated room for those who just need some chill the fuck down time.



That's going to very entertaining!
But that room will get overcrowded with all the people who have been triggered and then you'll need a separate room for the people who've done the upsetting. And what if your security units feel upset too?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 21, 2019)

On top of everything there's this twat



rat said:


> That's going to very entertaining!
> But that room will get overcrowded with all the people who have been triggered and then you'll need a separate room for the people who've done the upsetting. And what if your security units feel upset too?


----------



## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> You can do what you want and are best judge of that ... But here's an event that hasn't happened yet, a year away even, we all know how fragile it is, and here's a 30 page full of griping. That's on top of griping the organisers seem to be getting from other corners. Plus insults.
> 
> What would help most to make this event happen? Is there really that much need for more public "concerns"? The most recent concerns have been a hypothetical getting beaten up and that someone from Goldsmiths exists within range of the bookfair. Mainly feels massively counter productive to me



Whilst I take your point, I don't think reasonable discussion should be shut down because of this.


----------



## rat (Nov 21, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Did you actually make a new account to ressurect a dead thread and spew some ad hom? Atleast you chose the right name eh?



This thread will be alive in the run-up to _Bookfair 2020 _and in the months after that event.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Let's just have the bloody thing and hash over any fallout after


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

rat said:


> This thread will be alive in the run-up to _Bookfair 2020 _and in the months after that event.


The months and years


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 21, 2019)

I was going to respond to this more in detail but after todays nonsense (and FTR I think the contributions of both FLB and rat are a load of f'ing twaddle)...
But to the key points 





Rhyddical said:


> Red Squirrel and Rat, I don't know whether you havn't bothered reading the thread or whether you are comfortable the mask of symantics but this threads origin literally started with the negation and undermining of the trans community but saying that providing a space they were safe and secure in was IdPol and "not anarchist".


 First, it's a bit rich for someone who's admitted they have made a quote up to claim that other people have not read the thread. Second, the initial pages of the thread have as much commentary about the list of (potential) invitee's as they do about the safe spaces policy. In fact only a single poster (bar you) mentions identity politics before page 10.


Rhyddical said:


> The more recent addition via the blog, that black anarchist feel similarly uncomforable and we should seek to make changes equally met with accusations of IdPol.


Has it? Where? I can find no such claim. It is something you have invented in post #805


Rhyddical said:


> Are you saying that labelling something as Idpol isn't saying that it's a detraction from Revolutionary Working Class Anarchism?


I'm saying that if you truly want a discussion with people on this thread you need to read and respond to what they have actually written not what has been posted elsewhere and not your version of what they have said, like the below which is just dishonest crap.


Rhyddical said:


> Is that right? I mean It REALLY seems like that is what certain people are saying here. _(and no I'm not tagging peoples comments and highlighting them for review and hostility - have a scroll if you are truly interested)_


 you can't quote these positions because they don't exist, you've made then up.


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2019)

rat said:


> This thread will be alive in the run-up to _Bookfair 2020 _and in the months after that event.


Nobody cares about your opinions.


----------



## Rhyddical (Nov 22, 2019)

Red Squirrel, if you don't think that we're being accused of IdPol and refuse to scroll up and read the thread I'm not sure what I can do. If you think we're not being accused on IdPol in this thread you have not read it, I know there is a metric fuck ton of commentary here, and it's a bit unfair of me to say "read it all" but I will not drag the specific comments of people on this thread out to highlight them for critism and review. I feel that would be unfair to what in all likelyhood is people with a just concern about Identitity Politics taking over Anarchim and misgivinga about a Bookfair which - to them - seems to be playing thick and fact with IdPol.

I am truly sorry if you feel this is me manufacturing strawmen, not much I can do about it. You don't think that the comments exist and I'm saying that they are bad.... so arn't we on the same page? IdPol is shit, trans and black comrades are welcome and we should provide a space for discussions on trans issues and race relations etc.... what exactly are we having a barny about?

You can highlight my failings all you wish, I'm not perfect, I'm just some dude drink a cuppa tea after work trying to talk to people about an Anarchist Bookfair. I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to speak a bit to quickly and make bad calls. I'm not a fucking press office and we're not the Labour Party being held up for review. Where I've mispoke I've clarified, where I've read some thing wrong, I've apologised. Not sure what more you want, You seem to be trying to win some kind of perfect debator, personality award.

You win, fair enough. gratz 

If we can all just accept I'm a prat or whatever someone said earlier, that my personal twitter uses some anarchronistic language and that I may or may not be working class depending on how sexy I look in a Hi Vis, maybe we can move on from the personal attacks and get on with the buisness of bookfair eh?

We are your comrades at the end of the day, and I personally would much rather discuss the realities of Anarchist organising than continue a needless back and forth. Certainly earlier ... I think between pages 16/24 this thread was parralel to a massive and very aggressive Transphobic tirade on our Fb and Twitter which I was trying to manage by personally responding to specific concerns (as I am here) before another admin said nah fuck it and shut down that channel of abuse.

So shall we clear ze air and address the things. Tell me if I got them wrong.

So far, the majority of this thread and the concerns elsewhere come down to..

- Not providing a platform for Grender Critical Women is not Anarchist, Women with concerns about gender issues should be provide a space or atleast not barred. It's either silencing women or "having rules" which isn't Anarchist depending on who you ask.
- Providing a safer space for Trans (and seemingly Goldsmiths Students and or possibly Jewdas?) comrades  and holding workshops/stalls arround said issue is Identity Politics.

This alongside tenable concerns such as

- The difficult relationship we have with the LABC who despite inviting people to take on bookfair seem to feel usurped, which in all fairness is something is something we are very keen to heal (infact with comrades meeting shortly for a bit of bridge building) and truly we would welcome their involvement.
- The provision for childcare and youth, something we are looking into, hopefully having proffesional comrades on hand to provide a active and fun series of events and space geared towards more teenage interests (Ie video games yo and crafts)

Would this be correct?

If you have concerns about Bookfair, state them, please be clear, use crayons if you want to, I don't want to mischaracterise anyone.
State them and hopefully I'll be able to resolve your issues. This is what I am here for comrade x


p.s. I am not the comrade who shared stuff on their FB. What people share on the FB is their own affair but the context here is someone saying "bah look at this from some terf" and shared three screenshots from this thread, specifically from someone who self identified as someone that trans rights organisers would call "terf" whose concerns were that Terfs often get equated to fascists and thus this was just concern that Anarchists would respond to women attending as we might fash, ie violence.

I suspect quite a bit of this thread has been lifted and used elsewhere by people, as I recall there was even something on mum's net. Given that atleast one person has done a google search for my username and outted me by sharing my real name and that a number of my facebook groups have shown suspicious activity related to doxxing, I suspect people are making some shady efforts.

It is the nature of organising I suppose. What makes me sad here is that this hostility is coming not from out n out transphobes or even fash, but comrades who aside from some relatively minor disagreements on Anarchist protocol should be up for having a friendly pint and share solidarity.

With the scene also tearing itself apart over whether or not to vote Labour, it's a really shite precident and if I've contributed to it, I am sorry.

I want us to speak as comrades.


----------



## Athos (Nov 22, 2019)

Once again, whether through dishonesty or a lack of understanding, you grossly mischaracterise others' positions, with the effect of creating strawmen.



Rhyddical said:


> So far, the majority of this thread and the concerns elsewhere come down to..
> 
> - Not providing a platform for transphobes is not Anarchist



No, nobody has argued that.  The disagreement is about whether or not it's consistent with anarchist principles for you to exercise your power to exclude  anarchists you identify as transphobes, absent any consensus amongst anarchists that they are.



Rhyddical said:


> Women with concerns about gender issues should be provide a space.



Not women _per se_, but anarchist women.  Which isn't a position that's in any way inconsistent with an anarchist principles, or in any way offensive.  It ought not to be controversial!



Rhyddical said:


> - Providing a safer space for Trans (and seemingly goldsmiths?) comrades is Identity Politics.



Nobody has said that providing a safe space for trans comrades is identity politics _per se_.  If you believe they have, please quote the specific post (and I mean use the quote function rather than make something up and put it in inverted commas again).



Rhyddical said:


> I want us to speak as comrades.



This will only happen when you make an effort to understand what people are saying, and engage with it honestly.


PS  If the alleged doxxing has occurred, I condemn it.

I also condemn members of your group's decisions to reproduce parts of this thread on other social media, with inflammatory commentary.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 22, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> If you have concerns about Bookfair, state them, please be clear, use crayons if you want to, I don't want to mischaracterise anyone.
> State them and hopefully I'll be able to resolve your issues. This is what I am here for comrade x
> .....
> I want us to speak as comrades.


So do I, and I am trying to engage with you. But frankly I am reaching the stage where I am thinking fuck it. I do not know whether it is just carelessness/tiredness or a deliberate misrepresentation but you have, not once or twice, but many, many times misrepresented people's views - including at least one instance of making a quote up.


Rhyddical said:


> Red Squirrel, if you don't think that we're being accused of IdPol and refuse to scroll up and read the thread I'm not sure what I can do. If you think we're not being accused on IdPol in this thread you have not read it


 The above is a prime example I made no such statements as you have attributed to me. I disputed two _specific_ claims you made that were both false.


Rhyddical said:


> I know there is a metric fuck ton of commentary here, and it's a bit unfair of me to say "read it all" but I will not drag the specific comments of people on this thread out to highlight them for critism and review. I feel that would be unfair to what in all likelyhood is people with a just concern about Identitity Politics taking over Anarchim and misgivinga about a Bookfair which - to them - seems to be playing thick and fact with IdPol.


And this confirms it. You yourself have admitted that you made up a quote. Numerous posters have disputed the what you have claimed and you are not willing to even give a page backing up your claims. This is why I'm fed up with you, it is totally dishonest.


Rhyddical said:


> You can highlight my failings all you wish, I'm not perfect, I'm just some dude drink a cuppa tea after work trying to talk to people about an Anarchist Bookfair. I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to speak a bit to quickly and make bad calls. I'm not a fucking press office and we're not the Labour Party being held up for review.


You say that you want to have a discussion as comrades, and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt even after you made up a quote, but not any longer. 
I except that people post on U75 in their spare time, that you are dealing with comments via multiple platforms but if you are serious about having a discussion then you own other posters the courtesy of reading what they are posting and responding to that not to comments that have appeared elsewhere or you have invented.

If you are not willing or able to take the care not to misrepresent quotes/positions then ok but don't pretend that you then want a comradely debate you don't.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 22, 2019)

editor said:


> Nobody cares about your opinions.


Thanks for getting rid of the dick.


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## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

Thanks Rhyddical. I won't c&p your post, it's long, it's early and I've not had my coffee yet. But, for clarity I'll try and summarize my concerns:

There is, understandably, a focus on ensuring trans people feel safe and welcome at the Bookfair. There can be no disagreement with this...but, I fear that this focus can easily slide into drawing a very hard-line on so-called TERFs based on "floating definitions". The Bookfair then gets sucked into a very nasty and alienating dispute.

By entering this kind of dispute the Bookfair is in an arena where idpol is increasingly hegemonic. 

The Bookfair is the "signature dish" of the Anarchist movement in England. It is a core part of the infrastructure for movement reproduction, especially for geographically and socially isolated comrades and fellow travellers. 

If the Bookfair is sucked into the terrain of an idpol performative battle, then having a large proportion of non-Anarchist stalls further weakens it's ability to reproduce an Anarchist movement and is "just another radical Bookfair". I like radical Bookfair. But that's not the point. 

There are wider issues around making both the Bookfair and the movements in general more accessible and welcoming to people outside an activist bubble. Enabling a sustainable movement that people can remain engaged in, and part of, once life gets in the way (I know Plan C for example are trying look at this - so hopefully there's wider recognition of the issue). Childcare is part of this, but I do think tone, atmosphere and culture count to. The behaviour we've witnessed (from both sides) in the "TERF wars" is utterly alienating imo.

Sorry that wasn't anywhere near as concise as I'd hoped.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> So do I.....



I have made up nothing, I think there was a post where I got confused and three coments down corrected myself and (was it here) where someone commented I replied and when I looked back they'd deleted it? There are a great many comments on this thread accusing us and our position on Trans solidarity as liberalism and/or IDPOL.... IDK maybe you have certain people hidden? Further, you seem to contest my extrapolated meaning from what people said re; the reaction to our blog post where we mearly comment that we will be making a move towards embracing our black comrades in a more robust manner, in which people said "this sounds like IdPol".... I DID NOT qoute people, but made a short hand elusion to these accusation of IDPOL and the problem that faces for the revolutionary working Class Anarchist movement.

They said... Oh a post about black people coming, this sounds like Idpol and not have that taken as if you are saying making space for the black community isn't harmful to the revolutionary anarchist movement (as that is what Idpol is)

Without point out the bit in the post that sounds like IDPOL, what am I supposed to conclude? The block post literally says nothing remotely IDPOL. The only bit some drew out was "Goldsmiths... sounds like IDPOL".... Goldsmiths notably a very diverse group of young organisers...

So it seems to me the claim is, having young people of colour from goldsmiths partake in organising is us leaning towards IdPol and therefore harmful to Anarchism etc etc.

I've said this to you a few times now, I hope you can understand why this isn't "misqouting" or even "mischaracterisation", it's putting two and two together and getting a dogwhistle.

I will not be baited into highlighting specific people and comments for review, if I've "lost" you because of it. Er ok... I didn't know you existed until three days ago and you've done nothing but have a go at me on a personal level instead of conversing about bookfair. we're cool homie x



Chilango; Sorry I don't know how to do the multiple replies!
I think the Bookfair had no choice but to enter into the dispute to be honest. It was going to crop up when ever someone held the next Anarchist Bookfair in London and if we need to take the flack so that the next lot have an easier time of it then so be. I think we're given a pretty robust definition of Transphobia in our safer spaces policy and I recall giving a very definitive one here when I was badgered to do so during all that "heat".

This concern of it becoming a "idpol performative battle" is one we take seriously, and if I'm honest I expect we'll piss of comrades who lean towards IDPOL or the extremes of TRA just as much ( as wee seem to do those with perhaps more acceptance of what I'd label transphobia ) by not diving into that pit of liberalism and retaining our Anarchist Communist tone and message. I personally fucking HATE the "Terf Wars" and I have zero personal interest in getting involved in that previously , somewhat forced to by organising the Bookfair ;( Agree with you that it is very alienating too! Mind you the thing that hits home there for me personally is this note about tone, atmosphere and culture and I think that is where a lot of the concerns (outside of the aggy Idpol drama) stem from.

The organisers are all Anarchists, we're a diverse bunch with differance personal and organisational tendancies and aethetics and some of us are well experianced in the movement. We know who we are and we know who want want along. We discussed being a Radical bookfair and having a broader invitiational base, honestly we did. We concluded that it would be better and more honest to have a distinctly Anarchist bookfair (with grey borders), with all of it's drive and unity of tone and message. I believe making more space for somewhat apolitical local groups  is part of this, what isn't is fill then space with popularist marxism and Labour shite, which I think, some of the folk here are picturing. TBh I'm not sure there will be anyone there who wouldn't have been at the LABC, or that wouldn't have been welcome and I'm 90% sure people will turn up and go "ah thank fuck" and leave saying "fair enough...That rhyddicals makes up qoutes tho the bastard!" ;p

However that is my perspective, part of the reason I'm still on here is for the genuine imput and suggestions on how we can ensure we live up the the fantastic legacy we are adopting and ensure it's a Bookfair worthy of the name.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 22, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I have made up nothing, I think there was a post where I got confused and three coments down corrected myself and (was it here) where someone commented I replied and when I looked back they'd deleted it?


Lets be absolutely clear on this. Are you contending that when you claimed 


Rhyddical said:


> Somewhere in the early commentary there was something or other about "men who cut their dicks off",


That you did not invent a quote but rather this was an accurate claim and the reason is cannot be found on the thread is because the (unnamed) poster who made such a quote had edited their post and deleted it?


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## Rhyddical (Nov 22, 2019)

Can't find the original commentor now, but I wen't looking with interest about The Dangerous Spaces Policy. Which they wrote "The Dangerous Space Policy was intended to create the conditions for anarchy. No one was banned, asked to behave or scolded by any organizer. Each individual acted according to their will and desire, accepting the consequences of their actions. People took conflict resolution into their own hands. Almost everyone was armed. "

That is copy and pasted from Green Scare Anarchist Bookfair 2020 Invitation Flyer PDF

A recent Anarcho Primitivist bookfair in the US, It seems they are Nihilist and Individualists also.

"Civilization is collapsing and we welcome it prepared with knives, guns, and whatever else "

They make a big point about having no rules and then state "This is a sober event"

It's probably worth noting as well that according to a comrade from Black Rose Anarchist Federation, the kind of internal split we had at 2017, is not anything they have in the US. It's not a context they have that splits the movement.


Just to be clear, this isn't what Bookfair 2020 will be like. self indulgent Staight edge primo shite.

We're about the community, and if you kick off at someone, nick shit expecting other to "defend themself coz Anarchy"  you will be kicked out (and the rest).

There will also be booze from mid afternoon and several after parties.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 22, 2019)

Sorry is the above in response to my post?


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## butchersapron (Nov 22, 2019)

This stuff came straight from the US anarchist _scene_. The crimethinc smack the white boy stuff was 2009. And that stuff has never stopped over any issue since - never mind it not being something they have to deal with.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> There will also be booze from mid afternoon and several after parties.


i suppose that the appropriate license will be applied for and that, now it's been advertised in public.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose that the appropriate license will be applied for and that, now it's been advertised in public.



No worries, already sorted... Well atleast venue side. The afterparties are mostly autonomously organised as per tradition.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 23, 2019)

Should maybe repeat this (Which I wrote in response to a comment on page 17 or something haha thinking it was current)

We have zero interest in entertaining the debate that begin at denying the existance and basic rights of others.

Organisations and individuals who promote bigotted politics will not be given a stall or workshop.
People sharing bigot lit. will be asked to leave.
People who are well known for sharing bigotted media will be asked to leave.
People with a history of causing disturbances in bad faith will be asked to leave.

Specifically regarding Transphobia, Bigotry includes the political idea that trans women are not women and that the legal policies of the state should reflect this.

We will not play a symantical "it's not really racist/transphobic/homophobic" game with bigots and judgement calls will be made by the volunteers present.

I personally find the notion of Anarchist demanding a "defined codified rule set" a bit counter intuitive.

This is not a "radical bookfair" but an Anarchist one and we do not care for wet passivity or entertaining bigorty in any manner.

These people are a direct threat to the safeety and security of vunerable members of the community.

We will not be providing a platform or making space for people who deny the existance and rights of vunerable members of the anarchist community.

While I agree that there is a need "to win people over", have the Anarchist debate and such, Bookfair 2020 isn't the place.

If another group (you perhaps!) wishes to set up a fringe event on the same day to provide such a platform for discussion you are more than welcome and we would include it in our list of associated events, however this is not something we can entertain at the main event.

This is why your local Brexit MP wont be along, neither will the SWP, Tankie Brigade or Women's Place.

Whether or not you agree with it, think it is Anarchist, fascist, anti-women, Transmafioso etc etc do you understand that position? I mean we've been here before and I hope this is quite clear.


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## Athos (Nov 23, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Bigotry includes the political idea that trans women are not women...



This is the very heart of it.

Regardless of whether you or I believe that trans women are not women, what makes such an opinion bigoted?  How are you defining bigotry, that it necessarily includes all such views?

It's something you should address because, in essence, your position is that anyone who doesn't share your belief is a bigot and, by implication, not an anarchist, and that's what justifies you exercising power to exclude them from an anarchist event.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 23, 2019)

If Rhyddical and the other bookfair organisers think that calling those who disagree with the new trans-activism all bigots and transphobes is a productive and positive approach, then they are woefully mistaken. To deny the assertion ‘transwomen are women’ does not make anyone bigoted or phobic. If those who support the proposition are so certain of their viewpoint they need to argue, debate and justify it. After all, it flies in the face of common sense, of hitherto accepted theories of biology etc. Concern for the potentially hurt feelings of some trans people should not have to trump concern for the rights of women to express themselves freely. This issue will run and run and affects all of society, as well as Labour, Liberals, SNP, Green Party, gay and lesbian groups, trades unions etc. Your pretence that there is anything like consensus among anarchists is just plain wrong, and by alienating those gender-critical feminists all you are doing is dividing and weakening the movement further. There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices. The anarchist movement in this country is small and pretty insignificant, but recent London book fairs have demonstrated its potential for growth. To demand silence or compliance on a major current controversial topic in left wing politics smacks of authoritarianism, mind control and doublethink.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If Rhyddical and the other bookfair organisers think that calling those who disagree with the new trans-activism all bigots and transphobes is a productive and positive approach, then they are woefully mistaken. To deny the assertion ‘transwomen are women’ does not make anyone bigoted or phobic. If those who support the proposition are so certain of their viewpoint they need to argue, debate and justify it. After all, it flies in the face of common sense, of hitherto accepted theories of biology etc. Concern for the potentially hurt feelings of some trans people should not have to trump concern for the rights of women to express themselves freely. This issue will run and run and affects all of society, as well as Labour, Liberals, SNP, Green Party, gay and lesbian groups, trades unions etc. Your pretence that there is anything like consensus among anarchists is just plain wrong, and by alienating those gender-critical feminists all you are doing is dividing and weakening the movement further. There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices. The anarchist movement in this country is small and pretty insignificant, but recent London book fairs have demonstrated its potential for growth. To demand silence or compliance on a major current controversial topic in left wing politics smacks of authoritarianism, mind control and doublethink.


There's one significant omission from your list of groups this divisive issue has affected, and that's the party which introduced the topic to its current level via the consultation they announced, namely the tory party. If I wanted to inject an issue which would turn friends against each other and cause internecine strife in radical politics I could not have come up with something better than this. All common sense has flown out of the window, all solidarity shattered. It's very disappointing to see comrades fall out over something like this instead of their working together in a spirit of amity


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There's one significant omission from your list of groups this divisive issue has affected, and that's the party which introduced the topic to its current level via the consultation they announced, namely the tory party. If I wanted to inject an issue which would turn friends against each other and cause internecine strife in radical politics I could not have come up with something better than this. All common sense has flown out of the window, all solidarity shattered. It's very disappointing to see comrades fall out over something like this instead of their working together in a spirit of amity


I agree with you. Whatever else it is this issue is not central to anarchism. Bakunin and Kropotkin didn’t know anything about it, nor the CNT or FAI in Spain, nor Provo in Amsterdam, nor anyone at all until very recently. Outside of woke politics hardly anybody out there is even aware of what’s going on, but with more controversy about transwomen in women’s sport I suspect that a bit more common sense will start to prevail. I just hope that if/when a backlash happens the baby (trans-rights) isn’t thrown out with the bath water (conformity to an intellectually vacuous ideology)


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I agree with you. Whatever else it is this issue is not central to anarchism. Bakunin and Kropotkin didn’t know anything about it, nor the CNT or FAI in Spain, nor Provo in Amsterdam, nor anyone at all until very recently. Outside of woke politics hardly anybody out there is even aware of what’s going on, but with more controversy about transwomen in women’s sport I suspect that a bit more common sense will start to prevail. I just hope that if/when a backlash happens the baby (trans-rights) isn’t thrown out with the bath water (conformity to an intellectually vacuous ideology)


It's amazing how concerned people who formerly showed no interest in sports have become so exercised about transwomen's participation.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It's amazing how concerned people who formerly showed no interest in sports have become so exercised about transwomen's participation.


Yeah, I know. But loads more people are bothered about sport than they are about other things. Which is why they see the ridiculousness of simple mantras such as ‘trans-women’ when applied to women’s sport. When ideology conflicts with everyday reality will be when the crunch comes (maybe).


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## LDC (Nov 23, 2019)

Edited. Can't be arsed.


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Edited. Can't be arsed.



same tbf


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Given the diverse range of opinions held by people who attend the Bookfair, opinions which the organisers haven't attempted to police in the past (eg af, cw, solfed, awg) what I'd be looking for ideally from a Bookfair collective would be them rising above divisive topics rather than adopting partisan positions, and doing the task at hand - namely organising a Bookfair and not running it. And what I'd like to see from people attending the event is an ability not to use the day to show just how poorly they can behave. There's nothing edifying about calling people ugly terfs, nicking and burning Bookfair banners, or distributing a wholly unanarchist leaflet calling for engagement with a government consultation with a view to provoking unhappiness.


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 23, 2019)

AWG? That's a long time ago.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

charlie mowbray said:


> AWG? That's a long time ago.


In the dim and distant past, then! Only time I remember seeing them was at the cw international conference


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## Serge Forward (Nov 23, 2019)

The AWG were shite. Most of their movers and shakers ended up in RCP/LM/Spiked/IOI.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> The AWG were shite. Most of their movers and shakers ended up in RCP/LM/IOI.


Yeh I remember the disdain in which they were held


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## Serge Forward (Nov 23, 2019)

You'll notice I just had to edit my own post there - compare with your quote. Bugger, it's very easy to mix up the two initials


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> You'll notice I just had to edit my own post there - compare with your quote. Bugger, it's very easy to mix up the two initials


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## Jennastan (Nov 23, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yeah, I know. But loads more people are bothered about sport than they are about other things. Which is why they see the ridiculousness of simple mantras such as ‘trans-women’ when applied to women’s sport. When ideology conflicts with everyday reality will be when the crunch comes (maybe).


trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist  standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 23, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist  standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?


I’m not opposing any human rights to anything. But many women object that trans women who have grown up male are allowed to compete against them as if there were no physical difference. Which there obviously is. My difference of opinion with you on this one issue has no bearing on anarchism whatsoever.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 23, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist  standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?



No idea why what you replied to came up as being in response to me. I’m not here much lately and that account isn’t linked to me at all. Is there an issue with the software?
Take it up with the mods. I couldn’t care less.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 23, 2019)

Or whatever.


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## Athos (Nov 23, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist  standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?



There is no *universal* right to access to *female* sport.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist  standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?


Elite sport? What, polo or real tennis, that sort of thing?


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## Rob Ray (Nov 23, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices.



The only possible way you could say this with a straight face is if you have spent no time whatsoever listening to trans people talk about their experiences or paying attention to the way they've been publicly approached and treated time and again on social media and in person.

On which note I'll probably be back whenever this round of "why can't people just accept my right to upset, misrepresent and harass trans people" has run its course.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yeah, I know. But loads more people are bothered about sport than they are about other things. Which is why they see the ridiculousness of simple mantras such as ‘trans-women’ when applied to women’s sport. When ideology conflicts with everyday reality will be when the crunch comes (maybe).


Yeh, but if you read my post you'll see I was talking about people who formerly showed no interest in sport. Do try to respond to what I say, not what you think I say


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## Rhyddical (Nov 23, 2019)

So the thread entertains what is quite frankly somewhat overt acceptance and endorsement of casual transphobia, under the quise of "we're not racist" "It's the factz" esk language primed together with "This isn't an issue for Anarchists" esk BS.

The systematic abuse of a minority community at the hands of the state and community at large is an issue for Anarchism, and standing in solidarity with the abused and oppressed will be a prominant issue at Bookfair 2020.

Twenty years ago the papers shared articles denouncing Lesbians in womens toilets and now we see the same for the trans community.
It's not about "hurt feelings" it's about the mental, social and political abuse, the deaths and murders and the sickening bigotry you think seems to be in any was endorsable.

"There is no threat of violence against trans-people from women. No anarchist women are trying to silence trans-activist voices."

You are catagorically wrong in the first bit tho perhaps you are right in the second, people who try to silence minority rights activists arn't Anarchists.

Anarchism, while not saturating itself in cross class distractions is inherently opposed to bigotry, oppression and heirarchial structures.
If that isn't your kind of Anarchism then frankly you can fuck off back to mumsnet.

Certainly don't bother coming to Bookfair 2020.

I'm rather suprised and dissappointed at the lack of commentry here from other Anarchists. Especially those who shared their own solidarity statement with the trans community here on this thread who now sit silent without a word against that bullshit up there.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 23, 2019)

When did this happen?


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## nyxx (Nov 23, 2019)

Didn’t we already have 400+ pages of “discussion” where all this transphobic shit was aired ad infinitum? 

Was there any point to that whatsoever? 

So people just come and recycle the same old bullshit arguments here, regardless of how it was hashed out previously, just shows you how pointless it is to give any time or energy to these fuk heads who claim they just have legitimate concerns or reasonable questions. Why should anyone take that at face value anymore, I’m really not seeing it.


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## nyxx (Nov 23, 2019)

Also seems to illustrate very well the strategic value of the new @ bookfair collective’s stance, to just not have this issue be up for discussion end of. It just gets swamped with transphobic filibusters who want to sap all energy out of the thing unless they get their way.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 24, 2019)

You put your left leg in, your leg left out and shake it all about.
That’s what it’s all about.
Whoooooooaaaaa no transphobia
Knees bend arms stretched rah rah rah


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Given the diverse range of opinions held by people who attend the Bookfair, opinions which the organisers haven't attempted to police in the past (eg af, cw, solfed, awg) what I'd be looking for ideally from a Bookfair collective would be them rising above divisive topics rather than adopting partisan positions, and doing the task at hand - namely organising a Bookfair and not running it. And what I'd like to see from people attending the event is an ability not to use the day to show just how poorly they can behave. There's nothing edifying about calling people ugly terfs, nicking and burning Bookfair banners, or distributing a wholly unanarchist leaflet calling for engagement with a government consultation with a view to provoking unhappiness.



Understand your position there.
However, transphobes arn't allowed a stall for the same reason Stalinist arn't, nor Fascists, nor the Lib Dems.

Beyond that we'll be doing very little "running of it" tbh with the majority of it being out of our hands, willfully so, we are consciously avoiding micro manageing the event. (Tho I may not always make that clear). I'm also personally not cool with the nicking of the banner (and still hoping it's in an attic somewhere to be returned) and I think there is a great debate to be had on the nature of the the "appeal to a state" for protection.... If we run a working class question time or something that would be a good question !


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 24, 2019)

Here we are again comparing ‘transphobes’ to fascists. Are they the same? Define both please.


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## Athos (Nov 24, 2019)

.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Here we are again comparing ‘transphobes’ to fascists. Are they the same? Define both please.



Never said they are the same did I and tbh I often argue with people who do. It's a bullshit argument that disengages from the contextual issues and the variance  of the people within either.

You didn't say I was comparing Stalinists to Lib Dems which by your logic there I was....

I said they are arn't allowed a stall for the same reasons. IE They pose a threat to the wellbeing of comrades in attendance. This doesn't mean everyone who has concerns, or who think borders might be ok, or who voted for jo swinson that once time... it means ardent, politically motivated advocates of these positions. As I've said a great many times, we are not banning people who hold whatever view from attending, providing they respect the space and enjoy the aspects they have come for with out distruption.

Those who are known to cause distruption along these lines are asked to not attend and will not be entertained.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 24, 2019)

Fair enough but we both know that attacks on GC women have been justified as anti-fascist actions - Fuck knows why you mentioned the Lib Dems. I’m not aware of them desiring a presence at anarchist events.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Those who are known to cause distruption along these lines are asked to not attend and will not be entertained.



who will enforce this?


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Re-reading some of that commentary, I feel we should make something clear.
> 
> No one is going to get beaten up.
> 
> ...


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair enough but we both know that attacks on GC women have been justified as anti-fascist actions - Fuck knows why you mentioned the Lib Dems. I’m not aware of them desiring a presence at anarchist events.



TBH Even if POSITE PARKER, undeniably transphobic bigot, racist and collaborator with the Christian right wing in 'murica tuend up with a big "fuck yous" banner and a tv crew, the worst thing any comrade can do in my opinion is lamp here. While I understand the passion and rage of those who feel the bigotry in a way I never could, we have to considoer not just the "moralality of violence" per context but also the optical and tactical fuck uppery of supporting the  self victimisation of these characters.

So might like to try and present the idea that, any women who turns up and feels uncomfy with a genderless lav of with the thought of calling a trans women, sister, is going to get labelled fash and get lamped n kicked out, doxxed and lauched at by all the woke snowflakes.... or some thing.

It's utter bullshit.

A: the people who find themselves on the end of any response will have HAD to do something, such as sharing nasty leaflets, staging a protest or started waving ugly banners etc... 
B: Rather than any "dangerous spaces policy", we are taking an interventionalist approach to resolve conflicts before they result in two dozen people having a shout at each other until someone snaps and has a fist fight.
C. This isn't "policing thought", it's community protection and it is not focused on responding to transphobic individuals from WPUK or whatever... TBH from pissed up comrades, to Tankies and fash kicking off, Bookfairs have to be ready for it all.


We are only asking for people to respect the nature and character of the event we are running. Bookfair 2020 isn't coming to your hootnanny is it. If you don't like what we are about don't attend, hold your own function and share your opinions like the reasonable adults just looking for a debate ythe GC movement claims to be. No one is stopping you and we've said that we'd even provide awareness for any autonomous fringe event which cares to hold such discussion.

Seriously, rather than all this talk of violence and aggy BS... Surely the more positive aim, from the apparent "grown ups" and "realists" here would be to book a local venue and hold a series of debates and workshops and those who wish to here their take can do so.

The tankies understand that they arn't welcome and once again intend to respect the space and share their position nearby and external. Why  wouldn't you do the same?

Makes no sense to me.

re; Lid Dems, fairly certain I remember them trying to position themselves as "radical" a while back and looking to attend more socialist equivlants... Anyways they can fuck off too.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 24, 2019)

Besides Posie Parker not being a poster here, you need to be more concise in your replies. Nobody likes being beaten by a wall of text.


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## nyxx (Nov 24, 2019)

Given the walls of texts on other threads here I fail to see why one poster should be singled out for a word count limit.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Besides Posie Parker not being a poster here, you need to be more concise in your replies. Nobody likes being beaten by a wall of text.



 fair play, that is a skill I have yet to master. Tho to be fair, quick replies other prove less than robust enough... mind you I DO tend to go a bit too fair the other end of the spectrum.

TBH I don't think anyone here would merit "banning" outright, least not that I'm aware.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> As I've said a great many times, we are not banning people who hold whatever view from attending, providing they respect the space and enjoy the aspects they have come for with out distruption.



I thought you said that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave? But now you say you're not banning people who hold whatever view from attending? All of the biologists I've consulted have assured me that mammalian organisms do not change sex and that mammals who produce the small type of gametes are not female. They've presented quite a lot of evidence to support these assertions so I see no reason to doubt them. It appears you were similarly asked by a poster above to support your assertion but that you chose not do so. Would it be accurate therefor to consider your assertion an article of faith? A proposition which is to be held true dogmatically, rather than by argument and evidence? As someone who doesn't subscribe to this particular article of faith, I have a couple of questions:

1. Are there more articles of faith? One I've seen bandying about a lot lately is the assertion that sex is a social construct. The biologists I've consulted have assured me that sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago, long before there were any humans or social constructs around, and that sex is hence definitely not a social construct. So I don't subscribe to that particular assertion either. Will a full list of articles of faith be published beforehand?

2. It's still unclear to me how exactly this is all going to be enforced, which would be handy information to know if there's even a point going to the book fair as someone who doesn't subscribe to these assertions. If people are, say, required to recite the articles of faith upon entry then there's obviously no point in me going to the bookfair as I would refuse to do so. If, on the other hand, people are allowed to hold dissenting beliefs from the official articles of faith as long as they do not express such dissent then I suppose there is no problem as I'm not particularly interested in bringing it up. But that still leaves open some questions, like what if I am directly asked whether I subscribe to the articles of faith - if I answer honestly in the negative I'd have actually expressed dissent, which seemingly would be grounds for expulsion?


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## nyxx (Nov 24, 2019)

Intriguing to see three new accounts who seem to have signed up solely to slate this new bookfair collective via this thread. With a specific transphobic stance coming from 2 of those 3.

oh just noticed one of them seems to have gone already?


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Lot of new members here all of a sudden eh?

We have never said those  "that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave", we have said those who do not respect the space and aim to distrupte the event or initimidate others through the dissemination of transphobic articles etc etc are not welcome.
In fact there are several expansive posts here where this point is clarified.

You said "I thought you said" Which indicates that you are a member who has made another account mearly to share this more overtly dodge comment. I wonder if you are one of those who called me *disingenuous?*

"All of the biologists I've consulted..." I assume that was a small number who are not very good at their job, they don't seem to be away of the complexity of "sex development" in mammals. I mean escaping your whole "change sex" you'll find that trans men are men who were mearly "assigned" female at birth.

"sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago" is an interesting comment since you seem the be relying on Mammalian life, which didn't evolve until some 300 Million years ago and even then it was proto-mammals... I mean I understood the vague bit of pseudo science you are trying to elude too but your Biologists arn't very good is all, further You have not seen that "sex is a social contruct" you have seen "gender is a social contruct".

Look, I am not here to argue with bigots and trolls.  urgh why am I bothering, I don't have the crayons to explain this to you.
You seek to bait me into wasting my time source article and educating you on some rather basic science, all of which you'll have a copy and paste answer for or dismiss as anecdotal. I owe you no debate over the relative biology and anthropology of transgenderism.

I am here to talk about Bookfair 2020.

Again I appeal to the common reason of those on this thread who made a point of expressing their organisational solidarity with the trans community to say something here.

I'm just going to hit ignore. Have a nice life x


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

Just to be clear.

All attendees will be submitted to telepathaic purity tests at the doors.

Any deviants will be reported to Big Sister (AMAB naturally) for re-education and or destruction.

ALL SECURITY ARE TRAINED IN GUN KATA.

You are warned.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Lot of new members here all of a sudden eh?



Well I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd like to know how exactly the bookfair requirements will go.



> We have never said those  "that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave", we have said those who do not respect the space and aim to distrupte the event or initimidate others through the dissemination of transphobic articles etc etc are not welcome.



This is what you said:


Rhyddical said:


> People who are well known for sharing bigotted media will be asked to leave.
> People with a history of causing disturbances in bad faith will be asked to leave.
> 
> Specifically regarding Transphobia, Bigotry includes the political idea that trans women are not women and that the legal policies of the state should reflect this.



Which directly implies that people who are known for sharing media with the idea that trans women are not women will be asked to leave.


> You said "I thought you said" Which indicates that you are a member who has made another account mearly to share this more overtly dodge comment. I wonder if you are one of those who called me *disingenuous?*



It indicates no such thing other than that I have been reading the thread where you have stated what I just quoted you stating. Paranoid much?



> "All of the biologists I've consulted..." I assume that was a small number who are not very good at their job, they have not even heard of lions. I mean escaping your whole "change sex" you'll find that trans men are men who were mearly "assigned" male at birth.



Three, to be precise, but they seemed competent enough. None of them said anything about "assigning" anything to anyone. They mostly seemed to observe that gametes in sexually reproducing species fall into distinct types, and basically calling organisms male or female based on which type of gametes it produces.



> "sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago" is an interesting comment since you seem the be relying on Mammalian life, which didn't evolve until some 300 Million years ago and even then it was proto-mammals... I mean I understood the vague bit of pseudo science you are trying to elude too but your Biologists arn't very good is all, further You have not seen that "sex is a social contruct" you have seen "gender is a social contruct".



No I've seen that "sex is a social construct" but thanks for telling me what I've seen and not seen. Will wrong-see (as opposed to just wrong-think) also be enforced? If I point you to that link will I be required to comply and say something like "Yes sir, I am seeing 'gender is a social construct' and not 'sex is a social construct'"?



> Look, I am not here to argue with bigots and trolls.  urgh why am I bothering, I don't have the crayons to explain this to you.
> You seek to bait me into wasting my time source article and educating you on some rather basic science, all of which you'll have a copy and paste answer for or dismiss as anecdotal. I owe you no debate over the relative biology and anthropology of transgenderism.



You could've just said "yes" to the question "is it an article of faith?" It wasn't a complaint, I wasn't really expecting you to argue your assertion, just wanted to make sure it was indeed an article of faith, something to be adhered to dogmatically.



> I am here to talk about Bookfair 2020.



And that is what you were asked about, several questions of which you answered none.



> I'm just going to hit ignore. Have a nice life x



Thank you, I will. Too bad the book fair won't apparently be part of it anymore. After all, if I wanted to be told what to dogmatically believe and what I see with my own eyes then I can get that a lot closer to home than London.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Here's another example of the assertion that "sex is a social construct" or that "transwomen are not biologically male." Another biologist called Jerry Coyne addressed this as well, see here, but perhaps he is just not good at his job? His Wikipedia article certainly seems to consider him legit, but what do I know... Either way, it is definitely the case that the assertion that "sex is a social construct" can be seen.


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## nyxx (Nov 24, 2019)

Off you fuck, then.



Larry Noppius said:


> Thank you, I will. Too bad the book fair won't apparently be part of it anymore. After all, if I wanted to be told what to dogmatically believe and what I see with my own eyes then I can get that a lot closer to home than London.


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## nyxx (Nov 24, 2019)

Oh, but apparently you’re still here, come back one hour after yer flounce beating the single issue transphobe drum. On a thread about an event you’ve just said you won’t be having anything to do with, on a forum you joined yesterday, apparently solely so you could get some specific trolling in. Riiiight.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I thought you said that people who do not subscribe to your assertion that transwomen are women would be asked to leave? But now you say you're not banning people who hold whatever view from attending? All of the biologists I've consulted have assured me that mammalian organisms do not change sex and that mammals who produce the small type of gametes are not female. They've presented quite a lot of evidence to support these assertions so I see no reason to doubt them. It appears you were similarly asked by a poster above to support your assertion but that you chose not do so. Would it be accurate therefor to consider your assertion an article of faith? A proposition which is to be held true dogmatically, rather than by argument and evidence? As someone who doesn't subscribe to this particular article of faith, I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Are there more articles of faith? One I've seen bandying about a lot lately is the assertion that sex is a social construct. The biologists I've consulted have assured me that sexual reproduction evolved 2 billion years ago, long before there were any humans or social constructs around, and that sex is hence definitely not a social construct. So I don't subscribe to that particular assertion either. Will a full list of articles of faith be published beforehand?
> 
> 2. It's still unclear to me how exactly this is all going to be enforced, which would be handy information to know if there's even a point going to the book fair as someone who doesn't subscribe to these assertions. If people are, say, required to recite the articles of faith upon entry then there's obviously no point in me going to the bookfair as I would refuse to do so. If, on the other hand, people are allowed to hold dissenting beliefs from the official articles of faith as long as they do not express such dissent then I suppose there is no problem as I'm not particularly interested in bringing it up. But that still leaves open some questions, like what if I am directly asked whether I subscribe to the articles of faith - if I answer honestly in the negative I'd have actually expressed dissent, which seemingly would be grounds for expulsion?


Who are the biologists you claim to have consulted, all of whom would doubtless have told you gender is a social construct?


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## Red Cat (Nov 24, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> fair play, that is a skill I have yet to master. Tho to be fair, quick replies other prove less than robust enough... mind you I DO tend to go a bit too fair the other end of the spectrum.
> 
> TBH I don't think anyone here would merit "banning" outright, least not that I'm aware.



I think most people read on their phones, they don't read my posts either. But that comment is just a way of attacking you personally. There are questions about bookfair from people who actually attend/are involved in anarchist politics but McGinty isn't one of them. (neither am I)


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> I think most people read on their phones, they don't read my posts either. But that comment is just a way of attacking you personally. There are questions about bookfair from people who actually attend/are involved in anarchist politics but McGinty isn't one of them. (neither am I)


I hope I don't betray a confidence when I say I've met Magnus McGinty at the bookfair


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair enough but we both know that attacks on GC women have been justified as anti-fascist actions - Fuck knows why you mentioned the Lib Dems. I’m not aware of them desiring a presence at anarchist events.


The golden shower could attend to provide comic relief


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## Red Cat (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I hope I don't betray a confidence when I say I've met Magnus McGinty at the bookfair



Oh ok, sorry Magnus McGinty. I have also been once or twice.

Still, seemed like a dig for the sake of it instead of engaging with the points made. I don't think it helps the conversation along.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> Oh ok, sorry Magnus McGinty. I have also been once or twice.
> 
> Still, seemed like a dig for the sake of it instead of engaging with the points made. I don't think it helps the conversation along.


I have suggested to Rhyddical they should be more concise in their posts too, months ago, but clearly it had no effect.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, but if you read my post you'll see I was talking about people who formerly showed no interest in sport. Do try to respond to what I say, not what you think I say


This is going off-topic, but most of the aggro around trans women in sport comes from sports women themselves. I only mentioned this because it may be the area of life which brings the wider issue more into public discussion, where dogmatic assertion, no-platforming and threats of physical force will have less impact. But what do I know? Being a new member on here would seem to completely invalidate any points I make, according to some people. Or maybe it just makes me a suspicious character with somewhat murky motivations?


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## Red Cat (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I have suggested to Rhyddical they should be more concise in their posts too, months ago, but clearly it had no effect.



Apologies to you too Pickman's model for not keeping all your posts in mind. 

Personally, I prefer a long post that I can understand to short posts that require you to know enough context/history to make sense of them.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> Apologies to you too Pickman's model for not keeping all your posts in mind.
> 
> Personally, I prefer a long post that I can understand to short posts that require you to know enough context/history to make sense of them.


Some posts need to be longer than others but size is less important than content


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## Rhyddical (Nov 24, 2019)

I will endeavour to reply in a clipped fashion, for the mobile phone users ;p


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Who are the biologists you claim to have consulted, all of whom would doubtless have told you gender is a social construct?



Why would any have told me gender is a social construct? Biologists don't study gender, you're thinking of sociologists, biologists study sex (among other things). I've asked two I know from our skeptics forum and one of them referred me to the blog of Jerry Coyne as I've linked to above. All of them assure me that sex is not a social construct and that mammals which produce the small type of gametes are of the male sex and not the female sex. If you wish, on the other hand, to discuss sociology and gender then you are free to do so but you'll have to discuss it with someone else as I'm not interested in that, I prefer the natural sciences, I find discussing gender as boring as discussing nationality or any other such socially-constructed identity. 

But I'm also not particularly interested in arguing whether the assertion that transwomen are women is true or not, I just gave a quick overview of the reason why I hold it to be false but have no interest in convincing you that it is false - why should I care if you believe that or not? Given that not holding this assertion to be true (or at least expressing a disbelief in said assertion, for example by sharing media containing such) appeared to be grounds for exclusion from the bookfair I, as someone who holds this assertion to be false and who has been following this thread to decide on whether I would still bother with bookfairs after the shite at the previous one, obviously had a couple of specific questions for the new organizers, in particular:

1. Is this assertion required to be held true as an article of faith? Apparently the answer is yes, it is to be held dogmatically.

2. Are there more articles of faith? Apparently the answer is yes, the articles of faith are any superset of {"transwomen are women", "llons change sex", "anyone who says they've seen 'sex is a social construct' being peddled about has actually seen 'gender is a social construct' being peddled about", "biologists merely 'assign' sex to organisms", "any biologists who disagree are pseudoscientists who are bad at their jobs and need to be taught some basic science"}

3. How strictly will the articles of faith be enforced? As someone who A) does not subscribe to said articles of faith but B) doesn't give a shit if others do or do not subscribe to them, I'm not particularly going to bring it up either, so the answer to this question would determine whether it would even be possible for me to go to the bookfair. This still seems unclear but apparently _expressing_ disbelief in the articles of faith is grounds for expulsion whereas merely _holding_ such disbelief while not actually expressing it is fine.


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## chilango (Nov 24, 2019)

Some, including some Feminists, will argue that Natural Science itself is a social construct...but there you go.


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## nyxx (Nov 24, 2019)

Doesn’t sound like you should come to any anarchist bookfairs. There. Solved it.

Bye.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> Some, including some Feminists, will argue that Natural Science itself is a social construct...but there you go.



Plenty of people believe plenty of things. It is much rarer for requiring others to hold such beliefs - dogmatically no less - on threat of expulsion from a major event. I mean, I don't remember any bookfair where people who don't believe that natural science is a social construct were asked to leave.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Doesn’t sound like you should come to any anarchist bookfairs. There. Solved it.
> 
> Bye.



Don't worry, my questions were answered to my satisfaction and I agree I'm not going to come to anarchist bookfairs anymore. Presuming to have the authority to tell others what they have to dogmatically believe just doesn't seem the right kind of anarchism for me.


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## chilango (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Plenty of people believe plenty of things. It is much rarer for requiring others to hold such beliefs - dogmatically no less - on threat of expulsion from a major event. I mean, I don't remember any bookfair where people who don't believe that natural science is a social construct were asked to leave.



That's as maybe. But you can't just dismiss an epistemological debate that's been rumbling for over two and half thousand years out of hand.

Well, you can I s'pose seeing as you just did

But, anyway, much as I'd rather discuss the philosophical roots of Relativism than retired this trans argument  - again - it's probably a derail too far (even for this thread) so I'll leave youse to it.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Why would any have told me gender is a social construct? Biologists don't study gender, you're thinking of sociologists, biologists study sex (among other things). I've asked two I know from our skeptics forum and one of them referred me to the blog of Jerry Coyne as I've linked to above. All of them assure me that sex is not a social construct and that mammals which produce the small type of gametes are of the male sex and not the female sex. If you wish, on the other hand, to discuss sociology and gender then you are free to do so but you'll have to discuss it with someone else as I'm not interested in that, I prefer the natural sciences, I find discussing gender as boring as discussing nationality or any other such socially-constructed identity.
> 
> But I'm also not particularly interested in arguing whether the assertion that transwomen are women is true or not, I just gave a quick overview of the reason why I hold it to be false but have no interest in convincing you that it is false - why should I care if you believe that or not? Given that not holding this assertion to be true (or at least expressing a disbelief in said assertion, for example by sharing media containing such) appeared to be grounds for exclusion from the bookfair I, as someone who holds this assertion to be false and who has been following this thread to decide on whether I would still bother with bookfairs after the shite at the previous one, obviously had a couple of specific questions for the new organizers, in particular:
> 
> ...


I don't think you'd benefit from attending the anarchist bookfair. You seem utterly bewildered by people being transgender.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think you'd benefit from attending the anarchist bookfair. You seem utterly bewildered by people being transgender.



I benefited from the other ones I went to, plenty of transgender people there and no bewildering, most of them were very nice. Like I said, I don't give a shit if people are transgender or not, I mostly consider the whole gender thing just boring. I am bewildered that the assertion that transgender people (or any other mammal for that matter) actually change sex is considered required dogma, though, as well as apparently a range more of dubious-at-best assertions.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this has something to do with transgenderism _per se_ but if the organizers had said something to the effect of "anyone who is seen expressing disbelief in the article of faith that natural science is a social construct may be asked to leave" then I'd have questioned them about that just as well, given that I do not subscribe to that belief either and I'm not going to just because a couple of random people imagine themselves to have the authority to demand me to believe it dogmatically. There are plenty of assertions I do not believe in, such as "2 + 2 = 5" or "the Earth is flat" and if the organizers had gone with one of those we'd now be discussing that instead, so it seems a bit disingenuous to pretend that this is about "being bewildered by people being transgender."


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I benefited from the other ones I went to, plenty of transgender people there and no bewildering, most of them were very nice. Like I said, I don't give a shit if people are transgender or not, I mostly consider the whole gender thing just boring. I am bewildered that the assertion that transgender people actually change sex is considered required dogma, though, as well as apparently a range more of dubious-at-best assertions.
> 
> You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this has something to do with transgenderism _per se_ but if the organizers had said something to the effect of "anyone who is seen expressing disbelief in the article of faith that natural science is a social construct may be asked to leave" then I'd have questioned them about that just as well, given that I do not subscribe to that belief either and I'm not going to just because a couple of random people imagine themselves to have the authority to demand me to believe it dogmatically. There are plenty of assertions I do not believe in, such as "2 + 2 = 5" or "the Earth is flat" and if the organizers had gone with one of those we'd now be discussing that instead, so it seems a bit disingenuous to pretend that this is about "being bewildered by people being transgender."


For someone who affects to consider the topic boring you seem surprisingly happy to witter on about it at great length


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> For someone who affects to consider the topic boring you seem surprisingly happy to witter on about it at great length



I have not written about gender at all, other than to point out to you that it is not something studied by biologists but by sociologists. I've written a bit about sex, though. I've also written to answer silly claims like "you seem utterly bewildered by people being transgender" and now the claim that I've purportedly written on about gender at great length. And I definitely don't consider the main topic boring, namely on what anarchist basis would a self-selected group assume itself to have the authority to tell people what epistemic positions to hold on pure dogma...


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## bimble (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> on what anarchist basis would a self-selected group assume itself to have the authority to tell people what epistemic positions to hold on pure dogma...


As you observed earlier in this case it seems to be about compelled speech or rather compelled silence (on that day or is it enough to have done a wrongthink prior I dunno) rather than anyone telling you what to actually hold to be true in the privacy of yr own brain, which is impossible to do anyhoo.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Cba life's too short


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

bimble said:


> As you observed earlier in this case it seems to be about compelled speech or rather compelled silence (on that day or is it enough to have done a wrongthink prior I dunno) rather than anyone telling you what to actually hold to be true in the privacy of yr own brain, which is impossible to do anyhoo.



Yes, but since I'm not going to actually lie about whether I believe such assertions when I'm asked directly, I have to weigh the probability of being asked directly against the effort of going to the bookfair. It never came up before, but then those other times it also wasn't grounds for exclusion.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Cba life's too short



Well you could have saved both of us a lot of time had you just answered my simple and explicit question "is 'sex is a social construct' a required article of faith?" with a simple and explicit "no it isn't."


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well you could have saved both of us a lot of time had you just answered my simple and explicit question "is 'sex is a social construct' a required article of faith?" with a simple and explicit "no it isn't."


You could have saved yourself a lot of time and me a few minutes if you hadn't introduced your strawman.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You could have saved yourself a lot of time and me a few minutes if you hadn't introduced your strawman.



I wonder whether you know what a strawman is. I have 1) stated that I had seen the assertion 'sex is a social construct' being peddled about (a perfectly true statement) and 2) asked whether it is included in the required articles of faith (a perfectly reasonable question). I have not ascribed said assertion to _you_, ergo no strawman.


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## kenny g (Nov 24, 2019)

Jesus.


Larry Noppius said:


> I wonder whether you know what a strawman is. I have 1) stated that I had seen the assertion 'sex is a social construct' being peddled about (a perfectly true statement) and 2) asked whether it is included in the required articles of faith (a perfectly reasonable question). I have not ascribed said assertion to _you_, ergo no strawman.


Does not make a lot of sense. Are you saying that it is a perfectly true statement to assert that sex is a social construct or that it is a perfectly true statement to assert that  sex is a social construct is being pedalled about? And if it is the latter what do you mean by the term "pedalled about"? And whose articles of faith are they to which you does refer?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I wonder whether you know what a strawman is. I have 1) stated that I had seen the assertion 'sex is a social construct' being peddled about (a perfectly true statement) and 2) asked whether it is included in the required articles of faith (a perfectly reasonable question). I have not ascribed said assertion to _you_, ergo no strawman.


and you tried to gain some support for your tosh by claiming you'd consulted biologists when it turned out you'd chatted to some anonymous chums on a website you haven't named and read a blog.


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Jesus.
> 
> Does not make a lot of sense. Are you saying that it is a perfectly true statement to assert that sex is a social construct or that it is a perfectly true statement to assert that  sex is a social construct is being pedalled about? And if it is the latter what do you mean by the term "pedalled about"? And whose articles of faith are they to which you does refer?



I'm saying it's a perfectly true statement that I have seen that assertion being peddled about. Being "peddled about" includes at least one instance of one of those facebook fights about it. The articles of faith refers to the set of assertions that the bookfair authorities demand participants to hold true (or at least not express disagreement with), it apparently includes things such as "transwomen are women" or "lions change sex" or "biologists merely 'assign' sex to organisms" but, apparently, not "sex is a social construct."


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and you tried to gain some support for your tosh by claiming you'd consulted biologists when it turned out you'd chatted to some anonymous chums on a website you haven't named and read a blog.



You must think yourself very important to assume I care whether you believe such assertion or not, indeed, that I would go out of my way to convince you of it one way or another. Furthermore, chatting to some anonymous chums on a website is what I'm doing right now, and if you ever show a consistent track record of expertise in biology I may even consult you on a question in that field once.


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## nyxx (Nov 25, 2019)

Oh my good god are we really going there?


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## smokedout (Nov 25, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I benefited from the other ones I went to, plenty of transgender people there and no bewildering, most of them were very nice.



You met them all did you? A handful out of a couple of thousand people. And 'most' of them were nice? You must get around. 

If you want to talk about biology rather than the book fair policy why not do it on the other thread that is devoted to trans issues. This thread is for anarchists wanting to discuss the anarchist bookfair.


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## Rhyddical (Nov 25, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Why would any have told me gender is a social construct? Biologists don't study gender



So one of these mysterious biologists told you that sex was a social construct?


"Gender is a social construct" is what people say in this discussion. Anyone who said "sex is a society construct" seems to believe that sex and gender are the same thing and interchangable. Which they are not.

A transgender women, is a women who was assign male at birth. 

The corrolation of male - > man and Female - > Woman is an over simplistic one. Appied as an absolute in populations of millions, it is evidentially inaccurate with numerous accounts of people assigned male at birth who have a uterus and such. 


Now that's the easy one.

You see what makes a male, male and a female, female is more than their reproductive organs and there are several stanges of sexual development in which the binary M/F becomes less distinguishable.

The perception of a hard-and-fast separation between the sexes started to disintegrate during the second wave of feminism in the 1970s and 1980s. In the decades that followed, we learned that about 1.7 percent of babies are born with intersex traits; that behavior, body shape, and size overlap significantly between the sexes, and both men and women have the same circulating hormones; and that there is nothing inherently female about the X chromosome. Biological realities are complicated. People living their lives as women can be found, even late in life, to be XXY or XY. For generations, the false perception that there are two distinct biological sexes has had many negative indirect effects. It has muddied historical archaeological records, and it has caused humiliation for athletes around the globe who are closely scrutinized. In the mid-1940s, female Olympic athletes went through a degrading process of having their genitals inspected to receive “femininity certificates.” This was replaced by chromosome testing in the late 1960s, and subsequently hormone testing. But instead of rooting out imposters, these tests illustrated the complexity of human sex. Students are often inaccurately taught that all babies inherit either XX or XY sex chromosomes, and that having XX chromosomes makes you female, while XY makes you male. In reality, people can have XXY, XYY, X, XXX, or other combinations of chromosomes — all of which can result in a variety of sex characteristics. It’s also true that some people with XX chromosomes develop typically male reproductive systems, and some people with XY chromosomes develop typically female reproductive systems.

Perhaps look up Anne Fausto-Sterling, whose article five different ways of measuring sex you may illuminating.


This mind is simply all about "sex". Which you seem to be struggling with. 
I don't really want to start on gender which is much more complex and would require some abstract thought I do not have the crayons to explain to you. 

In short, Gender is a construct to quickly explain the two most prevailant physical forms, next to ignored for most of history, becoming more evident with the advent of mass agriculture and post 14th cent social developments and subsequently the church. The notions of Man/Women making better strict social norms than they do robust explainations of the specturm varience of sex and gender  

In short, what you were taught in school is no longer accepted as science, and I'm sorry to tell you this but Pluto isn't a Planet and there is life that exists without the sun (Chemo-Autotrophs and they are cool) also we totally have solid evidence of extra terrestial life which is cool but tangents...

Unfortuantly the language of the gender binary was core to Second Wave (some third wave) feminism. Unfortuantly for some of our sisters, this development in our understanding of biology was felt to be opposed to the political narratives they had built to combat patrirachy and the horrific abuses they had known at the hands of men. As Germaine Greer and others would comment, they felt that Trans women, we actually just men who were sexual deviants, perverts or simply mentally it and that they didn't obtain women hood by "cutting their dick off".  Similarly Trans men we "just confused lesbians". These narratives in the age of the internet has lead to notable racist Posie Parker's lifted dictionary definition "Women: aadult human female" which was subsequently weaponised to direct sow the flase notion that trans women were mearly "cross dressers" and men trying to steal "womanhood". When other women repeat this lines, whether knowingly or not they are propping up a hideously racist politic. Many of these women don't actually hjave a problem with trans women per say ( similar to  how you describe yourself) however they repeat those lines and various dogwhistles that build up the hostile environmental trans women in particular live in.

My close friend D, an anarchist who had dealt with transphobia from with the movement, read these words in a note from her mother, a year later, after going through trauma you are telling me trans women don't experiance, she was beaten into a state of depression and killing herself. She joins a very high list of women in Britain who after suffering abuse based on their existance suffer depression and end up doin themselves harm. To qoute a friend "At least in the US you don't really get TERFS, the transphobes accept that they are bigots and the right wing save you the bother and just murder you, sorta more honest eh?". 

Now like you say, not all women with these concerns hold to the sheer degree of venom that others do. However they willfully parrot the words, share the memes, laugh with the outright bigots on Spinster and Mumsnet and refuse to "police" over bigotry of their sisters when they pile in to attack, dox and abuse people on twitter (as they did Bookfair 2020) where such notable faces as Helen Steel shared Transwomen are not women a single notification down from "trannies are fucking pervert rapists". She got a block for that. Not once did any of the probably hundred women and men spamming us correct a single line of the overt stuff. women n. btw is copy from the dictionary, a constantly changing volume of text - written by men - that until recently said that males couldn't suffer rape and that homosexuality was a mental disorder.

We are Anarchists, one of the key aspects of this political and personal position is that our ethics are not based on a codified body of tech, an instruction from a heirarchial order or even "general consensus" but guiding by our solidarity with the oppressed. We do not need to re-define oppression each time a minority comes to the fore and tho the Anarchists of a hundred years ago never had to contend with this issue in the way we do now, you can be assured that they would have sided with those who fought for equity and liberty against those who hated someone based on an aspect of identity. Mahkno's wife for example executed one of the Black Army generals when they found out he was an anti-semite. 

When we hear the curious circumlocution and symantics of bigots to attempt to escape responsibility for their words and actions, it sets a certain tone.

This is part of the reason people drawn parrallels with Fascism, as UKIP supporters parrot C18 Nazis with the fourteen words or claim they arn'trr bigots that are just "critical of islam".


You are trying to conflate the overt nasty bigots with "women who are gender critical" and subsequently with women in general.  This is disengenous and the mark of some really skummy political favouring in your manner. This unfortuantly is all to common place and the need to push your nasty bigotry which spits in the face of people who have spent their entire lives fighting oppression and bigotry, is directly harmful to people.

Just as if if Danny Tommo walked in and started demanding debates of some Arab anarchos, so too the nature of Transphobic women coming in demanding to be heard, especially as their starting ground is "trans women arn't real, they are perverts and probably want to rape women in toilets".

This does not mean that "all women with concerns" are banned, simply that specific individuals are not welcome, namely  tho who have distrupted the event in the past - this is something btw that extends well outside the purview of this discussion to a fair few people and organisations which the LABC had also previously kicked out and told to fuck off.

Transphobia kills people.
It kills working class men and women.
It kills our comrades.

There is no space for that discussion at bookfair and any attempt to shout about and horrendous bigotry under the guise of protecting women will be dealt with in a swift, calm and proffessional manner. We will be making a point of asking attendees to leave it with us, if only for the damn optics of the matter.

My apologies to Pickman, Chilango and mobile users in general.



I'm hitting Ignore again now, coz fuck this dogwhistling transphobic BS.
Shame on anarchist that thinks it's ok. 


I'll be returning to my "only talking about bookfair" line now x


----------



## Rhyddical (Nov 25, 2019)

BTW, your biologists seem to be shit. here are some better ones.


James, P. A., Rose, K., Francis, D. & Norris, F. Am. J. Med. Genet. A 155, 2484–2488 (2011).
Article

Arboleda, V. A., Sandberg, D. E. & Vilain, E. Nature Rev. Endocrinol. 10, 603–615 (2014).
Article

Sinclair, A. H. _et al_. Nature 346, 240–244 (1990).
Article

Berta, P. _et al_. Nature 348, 448–450 (1990).
Article

Jordan, B. K. _et al_. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 68, 1102–1109 (2001).
Article

Tomaselli, S. _et al_. PLoS ONE 6, e16366 (2011).
Article

Uhlenhaut, N. H. _et al_. Cell 139, 1130–1142 (2009).
Article

Matson, C. K. _et al_. Nature 476, 101–104 (2011).
Article

Hughes, I. A., Houk, C., Ahmed, S. F., Lee, P. A. & LWPES1/ESPE2 Consensus Group Arch. Dis. Child. 91, 554–563 (2006).
Article

El-Khairi, R. & Achermann, J. C. Semin. Reprod. Med. 30, 374–381 (2012).
Article

Sherwani, A. Y. _et al_. Int. J. Surg. Case Rep. 5, 1285–1287 (2014).
Article

Tachon, G. _et al_. Hum. Reprod. 29, 2814–2820 (2014).
Article

Bianchi, D. W., Zickwolf, G. K., Weil, G. J., Sylvester, S. & DeMaria, M. A. Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 93, 705–708 (1996).
Article

Maloney, S. _et al_. J. Clin. Invest. 104, 41–47 (1999).
Article

Chan, W. F. N. _et al_. PLoS ONE 7, e45592 (2012).
Article

Zeng, X. X. _et al_. Stem Cells Dev. 19, 1819–1830 (2010.
Article

Link, J. C., Chen, X., Arnold, A. P. & Reue, K. Adipocyte 2, 74–79 (2013).
Article

Penaloza, C. _et al_. FASEB J. 23, 1869–1879 (2009).
Article

Warne, G. L. Sex Dev. 2, 268–277 (2008).
Article

Baxter, R. M. _et al_. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 100, E333–E344 (2014).
Article


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## nyxx (Nov 25, 2019)

Why is anyone entertaining this obvious troll?


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## Rhyddical (Nov 25, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Why is anyone entertaining this obvious troll?



I shouldn't "feed the troll", guess they just hit a nerve. Anyways I'm in the blissfull world of having ignored them now ;p


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> So one of these mysterious biologists told you that sex was a social construct?



No they told me the opposite, as I've made abundantly clear.



> A transgender women, is a women who was assign male at birth.



That's a contradiction in terms, as being male is a defining aspect of a man and being female is a defining aspect of a woman, ergo there is no such thing as a male woman or female man.



> The corrolation of male - > man and Female - > Woman is an over simplistic one. Appied as an absolute in populations of millions, it is evidentially inaccurate with numerous accounts of people assigned male at birth who have a uterus and such.



You have no idea what a correlation is, do you? Provide the definition of a correlation (without looking it up) and show the range of values it can take, is its value required to be 1 or -1, or can it have other values? (hint: correlations aren't required to be perfect, indeed very few of them are, yet they are still used all the time - can you tell us why?)



> You see what makes a male, male and a female, female is more than their reproductive organs and there are several stanges of sexual development in which the binary M/F becomes less distinguishable.
> 
> The perception of a hard-and-fast separation between the sexes started to disintegrate during the second wave of feminism in the 1970s and 1980s. In the decades that followed, we learned that about 1.7 percent of babies are born with intersex traits; that behavior, body shape, and size overlap significantly between the sexes, and both men and women have the same circulating hormones; and that there is nothing inherently female about the X chromosome. Biological realities are complicated. People living their lives as women can be found, even late in life, to be XXY or XY. For generations, the false perception that there are two distinct biological sexes has had many negative indirect effects. It has muddied historical archaeological records, and it has caused humiliation for athletes around the globe who are closely scrutinized. In the mid-1940s, female Olympic athletes went through a degrading process of having their genitals inspected to receive “femininity certificates.” This was replaced by chromosome testing in the late 1960s, and subsequently hormone testing. But instead of rooting out imposters, these tests illustrated the complexity of human sex. Students are often inaccurately taught that all babies inherit either XX or XY sex chromosomes, and that having XX chromosomes makes you female, while XY makes you male. In reality, people can have XXY, XYY, X, XXX, or other combinations of chromosomes — all of which can result in a variety of sex characteristics. It’s also true that some people with XX chromosomes develop typically male reproductive systems, and some people with XY chromosomes develop typically female reproductive systems.
> 
> Perhaps look up Anne Fausto-Sterling, whose article five different ways of measuring sex you may illuminating.



Already read it long ago, makes the same, let's be honest, simplistic reasoning errors that you do, including not knowing what a correlation is nor the statistics of dependent variables. Here's but one refutation.



> This mind is simply all about "sex". Which you seem to be struggling with.
> I don't really want to start on gender which is much more complex and would require some abstract thought I do not have the crayons to explain to you.



I literally LOL'd at this for like 5 minutes. Sure, the chum who doesn't even know what a correlation is is going to have to explain abstract thought to me. Here, how about you show yourself capable of some abstract thought:

Let P be a probability distribution over the universe {male, female, other} which is bimodal with strong peaks at {male} and {female} and let S(P) be the information entropy of P (provide the definition of information entropy of a probability distribution without looking it up). Let P_max be the maximum entropy distribution over that universe and S_max its entropy. Show if S(P) is significantly smaller than S_max and explain what that tells you about the information content of P.

Let me ask you, what exactly is your field of expertise? Are you a biologist? Have you had any scientific training whatsoever?


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> BTW, your biologists seem to be shit. here are some better ones.



I randomly opened one of those links and it had nothing relevant to say, you're apparently just throwing out a list of random papers. This may impress the scientifically illiterate but your flunking of basic statistics as well as the lack of relevance of the paper referenced makes me think you're just a dime-a-dozen crank. That you claim we have evidence of extraterrestrial life makes this determination even more likely, since it happens to be that now we're getting pretty close to my field of expertise (physics) and I can tell you damn well that we do not have evidence, let alone solid evidence, of extraterrestrial life.


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## Athos (Nov 25, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> So one of these mysterious biologists told you that sex was a social construct?
> 
> 
> "Gender is a social construct" is what people say in this discussion. Anyone who said "sex is a society construct" seems to believe that sex and gender are the same thing and interchangable. Which they are not.
> ...



It's ironic that you quote a load of scientific papers (some of which I'm not sure actually support your claims, incidentally) after: first, having previously said that this thread isn't the place to talk about the science; and, secondly, effectively that science cannot be trusted.

In any event, I don't want to get into the science, so won't go through your claims one by one (not least of all because I suspect you're parroting stuff that's being fed to you, but which you don't understand).

Rather, it suffices to make the point that even if the existence of intersex conditions did cast doubt on the idea that humans are sexually dimorphic, even the most radical biologist wouldn't claim that the existence of categories between male and female change the fact that the vast majority of trans women are biologically indistinguishable from those who are unequivocally male.

But, to keep this about the bookfair rather than the science, how about you tackle this question:

Absent any consensus amongst anarchists on this point, what is the mandate for your group to exercise the power of exclusion over other anarchists, for expressing (in a non-abusive way, at a relevant point in discussions) views* which, whilst you may not agree with them, are not generally recognised by anarchists to be at odds with any fundamental tenet of anarchism?

*specifically the view that 'trans women are not women', without the undeniably transphobic stuff about all trans women being rapists etc. with which you repeatedly dishonestly try to conflate it.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 25, 2019)

It might seem a bit late in the day but it’s worth asking “what is the point of an anarchist book fair?” There’s quite a few answers. Help anarchists meet up with old comrades. Meet new ones. Publicise campaigns and organisations. Provide funding for bookshops and publishers. Have a good and interesting time encountering new and ideas etc. Above all to try and spread the word to all and sundry. Other anarchists, fellow travellers, radicals of all description. Plus interested punters off the street with little knowledge of anarchism. But this insistence in conformity to an ideological position on a side-issue on which there is not just a disagreement but a gaping chasm between the two sides does nobody any good. Rhyddical’s slagging off of those who disagree as bigots and transphobes is ignorant and offensive to very many comrades whose viewpoints are far from bigoted. It risks further entrenching division and scaring off many on the left, particularly feminists and particularly women.


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## Rob Ray (Nov 25, 2019)

I'm sure they'll take your wise and in no way self-serving unsolicited back-seat driving with the seriousness it deserves. 

On a different note, I think the bookfair should have waffles. They're a great snack and criminally underrepresented at anarcho gatherings imv.


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## Red Sky (Nov 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm sure they'll take your wise and in no way self-serving unsolicited back-seat driving with the seriousness it deserves.
> 
> On a different note, I think the bookfair should have waffles. They're a great snack and criminally underrepresented at anarcho gatherings imv.



Oh and cats no doubt....


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## Rhyddical (Nov 26, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I think the bookfair should have waffles. They're a great snack and criminally underrepresented at anarcho gatherings imv.



I support this move. American, European and Potato, everything with waffle in the name is glorious.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I support this move. American, European and Potoato, everything with Waffles in the name is glorious.


There's always been enough waffle at the bookfair


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## Athos (Nov 26, 2019)

Anarchy Waffles


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## Larry Noppius (Nov 30, 2019)

Athos said:


> Rather, it suffices to make the point that even if the existence of intersex conditions did cast doubt on the idea that humans are sexually dimorphic, even the most radical biologist wouldn't claim that the existence of categories between male and female change the fact that the vast majority of trans women are biologically indistinguishable from those who are unequivocally male.



A little bit of grey exists (green arrow) therefor the pixel pointed to by the red arrow is white. The reasoning errors are so simplistic as to be an insult to the intellect.


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## JudithB (Dec 1, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> trans women have been allowed to compete as women in elite sport since 2003. The crunch never came. Not one trans woman in any Olympics since then. So why is someone who pupports to be an anarchist  standing up to oppose the universal human right to access sport?


They changed the rules in 2016 and I think you probably know this. SRS is no longer required. Testosterone levels need to be dropped to still 3 x women's top testosterone levels.


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## smokedout (Dec 1, 2019)

Given this thread has descended into non anarchists hijacking the conversation in order to try and force a discussion on trans issues despite the wishes of everyone else it seems a pretty good example of the problems the bookfair collective might face if they conceded and allowed an organised GC presence at the bookfair.


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## LDC (Dec 1, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Given this thread has descended into non anarchists hijacking the conversation in order to try and force a discussion on trans issues despite the wishes of everyone else it seems a pretty good example of the problems the bookfair collective might face if they conceded and allowed an organised GC presence at the bookfair.



I'm not sure I've seen anybody arguing that there should be any organised non-anarchist (or even anarchist) GC presence at the Bookfair though have they? Most of the disagreements seem to be over the tone of the Bookfair generally, and then what 'transphobia' is and who should decide and then police people's attendance/being welcome based on this definition.


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## JudithB (Dec 1, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Given this thread has descended into non anarchists hijacking the conversation in order to try and force a discussion on trans issues despite the wishes of everyone else it seems a pretty good example of the problems the bookfair collective might face if they conceded and allowed an organised GC presence at the bookfair.


One replying post from a GC = a good example of problems of a GC presence. Check your misogyny. We'll be at the back with our lips superglued shut...


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## butchersapron (Dec 1, 2019)

Hopefully


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## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Given this thread has descended into non anarchists hijacking the conversation in order to try and force a discussion on trans issues despite the wishes of everyone else it seems a pretty good example of the problems the bookfair collective might face if they conceded and allowed an organised GC presence at the bookfair.


How can you tell who are non-anarchists? ‘Everyone else’ is a slight exaggeration. There is a lot of disagreement across the country about the authoritarian and un-democratic tactics used by some in the trans activist community. Perpetuating this approach will not make the issue go away, nor heal the divisions. A bit more tolerance of divergent opinions is all that is required.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> How can you tell who are non-anarchists? ‘Everyone else’ is a slight exaggeration. There is a lot of disagreement across the country about the authoritarian and un-democratic tactics used by some in the trans activist community. Perpetuating this approach will not make the issue go away, nor heal the divisions. A bit more tolerance of divergent opinions is all that is required.


in the anarchist movement we welcome diverse viewpoints. but things which diverge from anarchism, things that separate and go in a different direction - why should anarchists accept those opinions at an anarchist event?


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## Rob Ray (Dec 2, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> There is a lot of disagreement across the country about the authoritarian and un-democratic tactics used by some in the trans activist community.



Amazing how it's always the trans community and their allies who are "authoritarian and un-democratic" and it's always "gender critics" who are just trying to have a conversation really isn't it. In any other circumstances those sort of numbers might look like simple-minded partisan bleating made up by people who wouldn't recognise honest engagement if it slapped them in the face - just as well we can rely on Kevbad to set us right eh?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> in the anarchist movement we welcome diverse viewpoints. but things which diverge from anarchism, things that separate and go in a different direction - why should anarchists accept those opinions at an anarchist event?


Trouble is that attempts to deny free speech, to label feminists as fascists etc diverge from anarchism IMHO. The general atmosphere of intimidation on this issue, in and outside of the anarchist movement, in this country and around the world, is doing nobody any good. Intolerance of differing anarchist viewpoints is what we’re really talking about here.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Amazing how it's always the trans community and their allies who are "authoritarian and un-democratic" and it's always "gender critics" who are just trying to have a conversation really isn't it. In any other circumstances those sort of numbers might look like simple-minded partisan bleating made up by people who wouldn't recognise honest engagement if it slapped them in the face - just as well we can rely on Kevbad to set us right eh?


I’m always up for honest engagement Rob. Perhaps even some partisan bleating from time to time. Sorry if either one of those upsets you.


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## Rob Ray (Dec 2, 2019)

No you aren't. What you're up for is leaping onto threads and accusing other people of being "authoritatrian and un-democractic" while maintaining an absolute blindness to the bad behaviour of your own side (and hence denying absolutely that there might be any reason for excluding them in the first place). Hell you can't even say the term "honest engagement" without it coming out as doublespeak.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Trouble is that attempts to deny free speech, to label feminists as fascists etc diverge from anarchism IMHO. The general atmosphere of intimidation on this issue, in and outside of the anarchist movement, in this country and around the world, is doing nobody any good. Intolerance of differing anarchist viewpoints is what we’re really talking about here.


no it isn't. for example i'm intolerant of wankers turning up to the bookfair intending to provoke a response by handing out an entirely unanarchist leaflet urging readers to take part in a governmental consultation.


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## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no it isn't. for example i'm intolerant of wankers turning up to the bookfair intending to provoke a response by handing out an entirely unanarchist leaflet urging readers to take part in a governmental consultation.



I think it would help if the organisers gave a steer on what aspects of typical gender critical thoughts or behaviour are at odds with anarchism, to help clearly set out what is or isn't allowed at the bookfair.  Else they run the risk of: first, having to make up something on the spot if anything happens; and, secondly, appearing arbitrary.

At the one extreme, I assume they'd (quite rightly) ban anyone (regardless of whether they claimed to be an anarchist) who proposed to come along to cruelly mock trans people.

At these other extreme, I assume they wouldn't ban a female anarchist who felt that biology is the material basis of her oppression, such that it defines womanhood, but who committed not to say anything on the subject at bookfair?

The hard work is in deciding how and where to draw the line somewhere between those two.


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## smokedout (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no it isn't. for example i'm intolerant of wankers turning up to the bookfair intending to provoke a response by handing out an entirely unanarchist leaflet urging readers to take part in a governmental consultation.



I've yet to see any attempts to persuade why this particular issue justifies co-operating with the state, and also how the aims of the GC movement (enforced birth sex segregated spaces or state gatekeeping of legal gender identity, to name two of the milder demands) can be met within an anarchist society.  Surely these arguments need to be addressed if this is to be considered a legitimate branch of anarchist thought?


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## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I've yet to see any attempts to persuade why this particular issue justifies co-operating with the state, and also how the aims of the GC movement (enforced birth sex segregated spaces or state gatekeeping of legal gender identity, to name two of the milder demands) can be met within an anarchist society.  Surely these arguments need to be addressed if this is to be considered a legitimate branch of anarchist thought?



How are single sex spaces (for the purposes of female safety) inconsistent with anarchist thought and/or practice, in the here and now?

Realistically, how can anarchists discuss those questions if anarchists who don't agree that trans women are the same as women who aren't trans are excluded from anarchist spaces and events?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I've yet to see any attempts to persuade why this particular issue justifies co-operating with the state, and also how the aims of the GC movement (enforced birth sex segregated spaces or state gatekeeping of legal gender identity, to name two of the milder demands) can be met within an anarchist society.  Surely these arguments need to be addressed if this is to be considered a legitimate branch of anarchist thought?[/QUOTE
> 
> If some women, maybe a majority, feel they need sex segregated spaces, then fair enough. Nothing necessarily unanarchistic about that. The argument hinges on how you define male/female. That is the nub of the problem. None of the possible answers is central to anarchism, or any other political ideology. That’s why it needs discussion, not diktat and not the assertion that ‘there is no debate’


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Athos said:


> How are single sex spaces (for the purposes of female safety) inconsistent with anarchist thought and/or practice, in the here and now?
> 
> Realistically, how can anarchists discuss those questions if anarchists who don't agree that trans women are the same as women who aren't trans are excluded from anarchist spaces and events?


how fortunate we are to have the internet so co-location is no longer essential to discussion.


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## smokedout (Dec 2, 2019)

> If some women, maybe a majority, feel they need sex segregated spaces, then fair enough. Nothing necessarily unanarchistic about that. The argument hinges on how you define male/female. That is the nub of the problem. None of the possible answers is central to anarchism, or any other political ideology. That’s why it needs discussion, not diktat and not the assertion that ‘there is no debate’



Look if you want to have endless interminable debates about what counts as female or male fill your boots, but trans people are under no obligation to join in.  And given there seems little appetite to give ground then what is the point, it just seems to me like you want an excuse to insist that trans women are men over and over again and demand that trans people sit there and listen.  But even so this is a philosophical or perhaps scientific argument that has little to do with anarchism until the discussion moves to how any conclusions drawn are mapped onto the social space.  So the nub of the problem is actually how and who polices what is a woman/man and in what circumstances is that policing is necessary.  Now this is a ground for anarchist debate, but the solutions offered so far from the GC movement have all resorted to state enforcement of various kinds.  Until an anarchist perspective of how this conflict can be addressed is presented, from the bottom up and in the spirit of mutual aid, without the need for cops, courts, prisons and government panels, then it's hard to see how the GC movement has anything to do with anarchist thought.  It seems more concerned with legitimising prisons by making them all feminist and safe (as if they could ever be either under current conditions) and cheering on a 'fair' Olympics when I would hope most anarchists would be concerned with tearing those institutions down.

But anyway, theres a whole other thread to debate trans issues on here so if you want to discuss it further perhaps post on that instead of derailing this one.


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## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> how fortunate we are to have the internet so co-location is no longer essential to discussion.



Well, the same phenomenon can occur online. And, clearly, real life had significant benefits over online stuff (else the bookfair itself could be virtual).


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## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> So the nub of the problem is actually how and who polices what is a woman/man and in what circumstances is that policing is necessary.



It's about how we organise, not "policing"of anything.  That's a pejorative term, which I suspect you wouldn't use to describe other aspects of anarchist practice aimed at protecting traditionally oppressed communities (in this instance, females).




smokedout said:


> Now this is a ground for anarchist debate, but the solutions offered so far from the GC movement have all resorted to state enforcement of various kinds.



That's because you're (wrongly) conflating gender critical anarchists with other gender critical people.   It's quite possible to want to guarantee safe spaces without appealing to the state to provide them.  Indeed, that's what the current bookfair is aiming to do for trans people!




smokedout said:


> Until an anarchist perspective of how this conflict can be addressed is presented, from the bottom up and in the spirit of mutual aid, without the need for cops, courts, prisons and government panels, then it's hard to see how the GC movement has anything to do with anarchist thought.



Gender critical thought is not a monolith.  It's quite possible to address gender from an anarchist perspective without necessarily believing that there are no differences between women who are trans and women who are not, and the way we should respond to that fact. 




smokedout said:


> But anyway, theres a whole other thread to debate trans issues on here so if you want to discuss it further perhaps post on that instead of derailing this one.



But this issue is relevant to the subject of this thread.


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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 2, 2019)

Athos said:


> But this issue is relevant to the subject of this thread.



The relevance of elite sports to the anarchist bookfair is something that had hitherto eluded me in 30 years of fairly loyal attendance.

As a broad-based event there will be all sorts of things that are relevant to it. But if a bunch of people signed on to Urban75 to monomaniacly discuss the bookfair and Rojava, or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder, or the quality of the veggie burgers, or even (as we have seen) about the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here, I think they would get short shrift as well.


----------



## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The relevance of elite sports to the anarchist bookfair is something that had hitherto eluded me in 30 years of fairly loyal attendance.
> 
> As a broad-based event there will be all sorts of things that are relevant to it. But if a bunch of people signed on to Urban75 to monomaniacly discuss the bookfair and Rojava, or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder, or the quality of the veggie burgers, or even (as we have seen) about the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here, I think they would get short shrift as well.



The relevant issue isn't elite sports (as I think you realise), but how those self-appointed to positions of power within the movement deal with differences amongst anarchists. 

I agree you with you to an extent about these new single-issue posters who've popped up, though, in respect if whom we've no idea of their politics or good faith.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder



I think it's vital that before we discuss this then we urgently need to have a movement wide discussion about whether God exists.  Unfortunately most Catholics say no debate so we've basically been silenced and atheists are clearly not safe at the bookfair.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> So the nub of the problem is actually how and who polices what is a woman/man and in what circumstances is that policing is necessary.  Now this is a ground for anarchist debate, but the solutions offered so far from the GC movement have all resorted to state enforcement of various kinds.  Until an anarchist perspective of how this conflict can be addressed is presented, from the bottom up and in the spirit of mutual aid, without the need for cops, courts, prisons and government panels, then it's hard to see how the GC movement has anything to do with anarchist thought.  It seems more concerned with legitimising prisons by making them all feminist and safe (as if they could ever be either under current conditions) and cheering on a 'fair' Olympics when I would hope most anarchists would be concerned with tearing those institutions down.



This argument seems to miss the ball. We live under a capitalist regime with a state which has, by definition, the monopoly on violence so it's trivially true that any society-wide policies are enforced by the state. Do you also argue against labour safety laws because they "legitimize work" or against minimum wage laws because they are "enforced by the state" or against the abolition of child labour because it is "enforced by the state" etc etc? I hope not. So why argue against sex-segregation on those grounds? Heck, the 8-hour workday is enforced by the state, yet anarchists participate in the yearly 1 May events.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I think it's vital that before we discuss this then we urgently need to have a movement wide discussion about whether God exists.  Unfortunately most Catholics say no debate so we've basically been silenced and atheists are clearly not safe at the bookfair.



If it were the case that people were _required_ to agree that God exists on threat of expulsion from the bookfair then yes, we seriously should have such debate.


----------



## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I think it's vital that before we discuss this then we urgently need to have a movement wide discussion about whether God exists.  Unfortunately most Catholics say no debate so we've basically been silenced and atheists are clearly not safe at the bookfair.



Typically, your fatuous and context-free analogy completely dismisses the concerns of females.


----------



## Athos (Dec 2, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> If it were the case that people were _required_ to agree that God exists on threat of expulsion from the bookfair then yes, we seriously should have such debate.



We still wouldn't need to debate the existence of God.  The debate should be around the extent to which organisers have any right to punish those who dissent from the faith.


----------



## Rhyddical (Dec 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2019)

Athos said:


> I agree you with you to an extent about these new single-issue posters who've popped up, though, in respect if whom we've no idea of their politics or good faith.


Well, if you’re genuinely interested, I went to the London Bookfair in 2015, 2016 and 2017. I was really impressed every time and thought it was getting better. Then all the aggro happened and two years without a Bookfair. So like a lot of people I feel I have an interest, even though I don’tlive in London. I also have a viewpoint which I give in good faith and as an anarchist of some 50 years, give or take.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 2, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> This argument seems to miss the ball. We live under a capitalist regime with a state which has, by definition, the monopoly on violence so it's trivially true that any society-wide policies are enforced by the state. Do you also argue against labour safety laws because they "legitimize work" or against minimum wage laws because they are "enforced by the state" or against the abolition of child labour because it is "enforced by the state" etc etc? I hope not. So why argue against sex-segregation on those grounds? Heck, the 8-hour workday is enforced by the state, yet anarchists participate in the yearly 1 May events.



Laws won by workers are concessions won against our structural class enemy  There is no capitalism without anatgonism between worker and capitalist, there is hopefully an anarchism without anatagonism between trans women and cis women or women and men for that matter.

And more importantly, we may support concessions won under capital, but we have a vision beyond that, a vision where paltry minimum wages are not necessary and labour is controlled by us to the benefit of all, not subservient to capital because capital no longer exists.  I have seen no vision from GC feminists of how rigorous enforcement of single sex spaces based on chromosones or genitals can be achieved from the bottom up, it's all left up to the state.  And in cases where groups have chosen to be trans inclusive the GC movement has called on the machinery of the state to try and prevent them, usually with some garbled reading of the Equalities Act.

Now were someone to do the work, and propose solutions that came from and could be implemented by the class, from the users and workers in those spaces primarily, then that would start to look like an anarchist analysis of the debate.  But no-one has done that, and no-one seems interested in doing that, I suspect because under analysis it becomes apparant that any solutions are so draconian that no-one particularly wants them, and they would be near impossible to enforce.  So I'm not saying a GC anarchist analysis is impossible, just that it doesn't exist yet and until it does then the GC movement will remain centered on utilising state power (and by extention violence) against trans people as it's primary weapon of attack.  And thats not very anarchist.



> If it were the case that people were _required_ to agree that God exists on threat of expulsion from the bookfair then yes, we seriously should have such debate.



I think its been made abundantly clear, over several posts containing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of words, that it is not the intention of the bookfair organisers to exclude those who hold gender critical views based purely on what they think.  So perhaps we could move on from that now.


----------



## rich! (Dec 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The relevance of elite sports to the anarchist bookfair is something that had hitherto eluded me in 30 years of fairly loyal attendance.
> 
> As a broad-based event there will be all sorts of things that are relevant to it. But if a bunch of people signed on to Urban75 to monomaniacly discuss the bookfair and Rojava, or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder, or the quality of the veggie burgers, or even (as we have seen) about the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here, I think they would get short shrift as well.



Now, that's a serious question.

Are Veggies doing the burgers?


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 3, 2019)

rich! said:


> Now, that's a serious question.
> 
> Are Veggies doing the burgers?


Does Fozzie Bear shit in Wick Woods?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 3, 2019)




----------



## Rhyddical (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm not sure what the person I've got on ignore is going on about but judging from the replies...

We've not spoken as a group about this by my own personal take is that there is a differance between  a group which is composed of fellow workers who are Catholic and one which is a bout being Catholic as a worker. Does that make sense? This is a little bit more complex with for groups such as Jewish fellow workers and Anarchists, many of whom reject the organised faith but embrace the heritage and organise as a distinct cultural community, this is before going into solidarity with the deeply faithful who are oppressed on racial lines (such as Muslims) or on colonial lines (Chocktaw peoples)... our Anarchist principles has to have a malliable border, that while rejecting cross class politics, can embrace the discussion specific to differant communities, especially when so much of it is Anarchistic.... Solidarity does start with absolutes.

In this whole parallel between GC people and Catholics turning up... I think we've got a similar position.

We arn't going to let give a stall to the Exudus 21:20-21 brigade nor the pope in to do a talk. If a catholic group turn up handing out anti-aboriton leaflets they would be kicked out, If a known christian conservatist who had called the cops on Anarchists and shared media denouncing XYZ group as an abboration stages turned up and silently staged a sit in protest demanding a seat in the discussion, they'd be turfed out. Equally, I suspect a whole bunch of people who believe in beardy man in the sky to one degree or another will turn up, respect the space, maybe mention their beliefs in a reletant discussion but not attempt to sabotage the event or undermine the safer spaces policy in any way. If they chose to air their beliefs in a open discussiion, they should probably expect to be challenged in discussion of a comradly nature one founded on personal and communal development. If someone got physical with them, they'd be kicked out instead. However if they came in and said "nah the colonisation of Africa was good, we had to bring civiliation to the savages" they should expect a walking out.

Even if harded religious bigots want to try and say no catholic should attend, all Anarchists hate you, they are the fascists!, this isn't true. Anyone without a history of distruption, who isn't a known advocate of awful shit, is welcome provided they respect the space and the other atendees.

Context.

This same logic appeals to GC crowd or for that matter, Commies, Labour fans,  etc etc etc 

I believe Veggies will indeed be supplying the noms as per tradition.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> This argument seems to miss the ball. We live under a capitalist regime with a state which has, by definition, the monopoly on violence so it's trivially true that any society-wide policies are enforced by the state. Do you also argue against labour safety laws because they "legitimize work" or against minimum wage laws because they are "enforced by the state" or against the abolition of child labour because it is "enforced by the state" etc etc? I hope not. So why argue against sex-segregation on those grounds? Heck, the 8-hour workday is enforced by the state, yet anarchists participate in the yearly 1 May events.


whoa there. states may "by definition" have a monopoly on violence but that's often honoured more in the breach than the observance - see, for example, the past 50 years in colombia, the great sendero luminso campaign in peru, and - arguably - the way that there is a right to bear arms in the united states to defend the people against an overweening government. but be that as it may the british state does not, usually, send troops out to enforce health and safety or minumum wage legislation. child labour may not be as prevalent as once it was, but certainly into the 1980s and maybe 1990s there were still child labourers, delivering newspapers around the country and indeed often doing weekend jobs. as for the 8 hour day and mayday perhaps you could turn your attention to reading about the history of that day and why it is still celebrated. btw i'm by no means certain that you're right in your claim that the '8-hour workday is enforced by the state', i've never worked an 8 hour day on a regular basis despite your claim the state mandates it.


----------



## LDC (Dec 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I believe Veggies will indeed be supplying the noms as per tradition.



Noms? _Fucking NOMS?
_
FFS, enough about the trans debate, anyone using that expression at the Bookfair should be fucking beaten to death with a heavy dictionary.


----------



## Red Sky (Dec 3, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Noms? _Fucking NOMS?
> _
> FFS, enough about the trans debate, anyone using that expression at the Bookfair should be fucking beaten to death with a heavy dictionary.



Nothing wrong with people in their mid thirties talking like five year olds surely? How many sleeps til the bookfair?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Noms? _Fucking NOMS?
> _
> FFS, enough about the trans debate, anyone using that expression at the Bookfair should be fucking beaten to death with a heavy dictionary.


i hope you've not seen all the other noms on this site, it'd send you apoplectic


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## Rhyddical (Dec 3, 2019)




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## Rhyddical (Dec 3, 2019)

My apologies.

I do believe that the refectory will indeed be furnished with edibles supplied most kindly by Veggies of London.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> My apologies.
> 
> I do believe that the refectory will indeed be furnished with edibles supplied most kindly by Veggies of London.


i've been passed a picture of the refectory at the bookfair venue:


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## JimW (Dec 3, 2019)

Meat-free comestibles and vegan victuals in a veritable repast, you say?


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## LDC (Dec 3, 2019)

That's much better.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 3, 2019)

It'll actually be more like one of those interactive musical theatre dining experiances.


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## chilango (Dec 3, 2019)

Is there a tuck shop?


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## ska invita (Dec 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> supplied most kindly by Veggies of London.


They're from Nottingham
Typical London-centric liberal fake-anarchist cant be arsed fill in more insults here


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## Rhyddical (Dec 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> They're from Nottingham
> Typical London-centric liberal fake-anarchist cant be arsed fill in more insults here



lol.

I'm from Manchester and I live in Wales. I'm a persistant voice of getting Anarchism into the local and fucking of the central focus, having been a voice for making the "national bookfair" as it were to be more of a wandering one (chiefly thinking Birmingham next)... I think we spoke about that in thread somewhere... ie, London centric focus is counter to Anarchistic organising...

The London peeps sorting that stuff told me in passing Veggies is the traditional crew.

I made an assumption for a quick bit of bantz.

"fake anarchist"

Y'all are way to dramatic.

Appreciate the spirit tho, just a bit of off the mark and over the top here ;p


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> lol.
> 
> I'm from Manchester and I live in Wales. I'm a persistant voice of getting Anarchism into the local and fucking of the central focus, having been a voice for making the "national bookfair" as it were to be more of a wandering one (chiefly thinking Birmingham next)... I think we spoke about that in thread somewhere... ie, London centric focus is counter to Anarchistic organising...
> 
> ...


You've got me all wrong, I was being sarcastic with my put down

They are from Nottingham though


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## Rhyddical (Dec 3, 2019)

Sorry ... never know with this thread.

Half expecting Lynn to turn up to bookfair with a huge book doing a damn good S. Jackson impression...

"Say nom again mofo!"


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Sorry ... never know with this thread.
> 
> Half expecting Lynn to turn up to bookfair with a huge book doing a damn good S. Jackson impression...
> 
> "Say nom again mofo!"



Lynn made an important point there tbf


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Laws won by workers are concessions won against our structural class enemy  There is no capitalism without anatgonism between worker and capitalist, there is hopefully an anarchism without anatagonism between trans women and cis women or women and men for that matter.
> 
> And more importantly, we may support concessions won under capital, but we have a vision beyond that, a vision where paltry minimum wages are not necessary and labour is controlled by us to the benefit of all, not subservient to capital because capital no longer exists.  I have seen no vision from GC feminists of how rigorous enforcement of single sex spaces based on chromosones or genitals can be achieved from the bottom up, it's all left up to the state.  And in cases where groups have chosen to be trans inclusive the GC movement has called on the machinery of the state to try and prevent them, usually with some garbled reading of the Equalities Act.
> 
> Now were someone to do the work, and propose solutions that came from and could be implemented by the class, from the users and workers in those spaces primarily, then that would start to look like an anarchist analysis of the debate.  But no-one has done that, and no-one seems interested in doing that, I suspect because under analysis it becomes apparant that any solutions are so draconian that no-one particularly wants them, and they would be near impossible to enforce.  So I'm not saying a GC anarchist analysis is impossible, just that it doesn't exist yet and until it does then the GC movement will remain centered on utilising state power (and by extention violence) against trans people as it's primary weapon of attack.  And thats not very anarchist.



I think that's false, there are plenty of GC "visions beyond capitalist/patriarchal society" - indeed, GC views almost by necessity lead to a post-patriarchal vision of gender abolition and the lack of further necessity of sex-segregation exactly because of that.



> I think its been made abundantly clear, over several posts containing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of words, that it is not the intention of the bookfair organisers to exclude those who hold gender critical views based purely on what they think.  So perhaps we could move on from that now.



Yes, obviously the organizers can not _literally_ read minds and thereby police thoughts, but if one isn't allowed to _express_ disagreement with such assertions then that's hardly any better, now is it? And equally obviously my point should have been interpreted as such, it seems you're just trying to score a quick internet point without addressing the substance. Is one allowed to remain silent when asked directly whether one believes in the articles of faith (which I'll note remain at best vaguely defined)?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> whoa there. states may "by definition" have a monopoly on violence but that's often honoured more in the breach than the observance - see, for example, the past 50 years in colombia, the great sendero luminso campaign in peru, and - arguably - the way that there is a right to bear arms in the united states to defend the people against an overweening government. but be that as it may the british state does not, usually, send troops out to enforce health and safety or minumum wage legislation. child labour may not be as prevalent as once it was, but certainly into the 1980s and maybe 1990s there were still child labourers, delivering newspapers around the country and indeed often doing weekend jobs. as for the 8 hour day and mayday perhaps you could turn your attention to reading about the history of that day and why it is still celebrated. btw i'm by no means certain that you're right in your claim that the '8-hour workday is enforced by the state', i've never worked an 8 hour day on a regular basis despite your claim the state mandates it.



Well it obviously depends on how you define the state, I've found the definition of it as that which holds the monopoly on violence quite useful, but you may have another one. And usually it's the threat of violence rather than the actual use, so while it's true that the british state does not usually send police troops out to enforce health and safety or minimum wage legislation, it is ultimately the threat of such that's holding the boss back from violating them. If the boss were to violate them and persist in violating them even against court orders not to then at some point he'll get arrested or his assets impounded or something.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Even if harded religious bigots want to try and say no catholic should attend, all Anarchists hate you, they are the fascists!, this isn't true. Anyone without a history of distruption, who isn't a known advocate of awful shit, is welcome provided they respect the space and the other atendees.



IIRC last time there was a disruption between Helen Steele and a group of about 30 people, where Helen stated that she supported the right of a couple of women to hand out flyers and the group stating she wasn't allowed to state that. How would you have solved this? Depends on who you consider to be causing said disruption, doesn't it?

And yes I know you got me on ignore (which I'll just count as yet another point for considering you to belong in the "authoritarian crank" category) but ignoring questions about the limits of your self-appointed authority hardly makes you look any less authoritarian.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Yes, obviously the organizers can not _literally_ read minds and thereby police thoughts, but if one isn't allowed to _express_ disagreement with such assertions then that's hardly any better, now is it? And equally obviously my point should have been interpreted as such, it seems you're just trying to score a quick internet point without addressing the substance. Is one allowed to remain silent when asked directly whether one believes in the articles of faith (which I'll note remain at best vaguely defined)?



It depends on the nature of the disagreement, one would think.

Most people are not anarchists. One of the functions of the anarchist bookfair should be to introduce people to anarchist ideas. You would therefore hope that vast quantities of people would attend who have all sorts of ideas. Including perhaps some reservations about the concept that the state should be abolished, if "asked directly" about it.

There are clearly several shades of grey between calling for the abolition of the state and cheerleading state violence at Orgreave, Kronstadt, Yarl's Wood, etc.

As I'm not involved with organising the bookfair, I don't have to get into the mulitplicity of exciting scenarios that threads like these conjure up. But that would be my starting point.

As for remaining silent, that is always an option. But even then, it doesn't take a huge effort to imagine people who, silent or not, would be disruptive to the bookfair by their presence alone. Perhaps I could give some clankingly obvious examples at this point, and you could counter with an entirely abstract example of your own. It won't do any good but I suppose it is one way of passing the time between now and when the bookfair is held.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It depends on the nature of the disagreement, one would think.
> 
> Most people are not anarchists. One of the functions of the anarchist bookfair should be to introduce people to anarchist ideas. You would therefore hope that vast quantities of people would attend who have all sorts of ideas. Including perhaps some reservations about the concept that the state should be abolished, if "asked directly" about it.
> 
> ...



I'll simply point out that I have, in fact, given one such concrete (and quite relevant) example just one post ago, which you have chosen to ignore in favour of conjuring up scenarios about people who have reservations about the concept that the state should be abolished.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I'll simply point out that I have, in fact, given one such concrete (and quite relevant) example just one post ago, which you have chosen to ignore in favour of conjuring up scenarios about people who have reservations about the concept that the state should be abolished.



I have, I have absolutely chosen to ignore that.


----------



## Athos (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> IIRC last time there was a disruption between Helen Steele and a group of about 30 people, where Helen stated that she supported the right of a couple of women to hand out flyers and the group stating she wasn't allowed to state that. How would you have solved this? Depends on who you consider to be causing said disruption, doesn't it?
> 
> And yes I know you got me on ignore (which I'll just count as yet another point for considering you to belong in the "authoritarian crank" category) but ignoring questions about the limits of your self-appointed authority hardly makes you look any less authoritarian.



Out of interest, what would you have done, and why?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I have, I have absolutely chosen to ignore that.



You've also ignored the concrete examples in this thread itself, such as the lions changing sex or biologists merely "assigning" sex to organisms or the purported existence of solid evidence of extra-terrestrial life. For a bookfair the function of which is to attract a broad public so as to introduce them to anarchist ideas it seems quite counterproductive for an organizer to lecture people on science while being an obvious crackpot. That is, of course, unless one would be deliberately trying to keep scientists away.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Athos said:


> Out of interest, what would you have done, and why?



I'd have stopped the mobbing. Even if we grant that the flyers should not be allowed to be distributed for being too un-anarchistic (calling for participation in a government consultation) then merely disagreeing with that (not actually distributing any such flyers but merely disagreeing with the decision that they should not allowed to be distributed) is no grounds for exclusion, but mobbing someone for expressing such disagreement is. Basically I'd hold the mob responsible for the disruption.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I'd have stopped the mobbing. Even if we grant that the flyers should not be allowed to be distributed for being too un-anarchistic (calling for participation in a government consultation) then merely disagreeing with that (not actually distributing any such flyers but merely disagreeing with the decision that they should not allowed to be distributed) is no grounds for exclusion, but mobbing someone for expressing such disagreement is. Basically I'd hold the mob responsible for the disruption.


so to take a hypothetical analogy, there's some people distributing jehovah's witnesses stuff at the bookfair and some others vehemently object to their god-bothery nonsense. for you to be consistent you'd have to say the god-botherers were not responsible for any disruption. or if it was tories distributing some guff, you'd not hold the tories to blame for disruption.

anyway, what i don't understand, and perhaps you can help me out here, is why you think it's a or b responsible, why it can't be a and b. why you think there's got to be good guys and bad guys.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> You've also ignored the concrete examples in this thread itself, such as the lions changing sex or biologists merely "assigning" sex to organisms or the purported existence of solid evidence of extra-terrestrial life.



I have indeed also ignored all these things. Wilfully and with aforethought. And I will continue to do so.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> so to take a hypothetical analogy, there's some people distributing jehovah's witnesses stuff at the bookfair and some others vehemently object to their god-bothery nonsense. for you to be consistent you'd have to say the god-botherers were not responsible for any disruption



Let's call the group distributing jehovah's witnesses stuff group A.
Let's call the group vehemently objecting group B.
It is decided that group A is expelled.
Individual C disagrees with expelling group A.
Group B vehemently objects to individual C being allowed to disagree.
Disruption ensues.

If I were to be consistent, I'd have to hold group B responsible for the disruption with individual C, and that's exactly the case.



> or if it was tories distributing some guff, you'd not hold the tories to blame for disruption.



Let's call the group of tories distributing some guff group A.
Let's call the group vehemently objecting group B.
It is decided that group A is expelled.
Individual C disagrees with expelling group A.
Group B vehemently objects to individual C being allowed to disagree.
Disruption ensues.

If I were to be consistent, I'd have to hold group B responsible for the disruption with individual C, and that's exactly the case.

Is there an actual point to these hypotheticals or are you just wasting my time?



> anyway, what i don't understand, and perhaps you can help me out here, is why you think it's a or b responsible, why it can't be a and b. why you think there's got to be good guys and bad guys.



No idea why you have to be moralistic about it (the "good" guys and "bad" guys) but it's definitely possible to expel both, it would obviously also solve the disruption. I just think that in the cases given individual C should be free to express said dissent.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Is there an actual point to these hypotheticals or are you just wasting my time?


yes, tell me more about the decision-making process you employed to expel groups, where's that from


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, tell me more about the decision-making process you employed to expel groups, where's that from



Why should I? I'm not the one actually wielding such authority, and the actual organizers who have appointed themselves to said authority - or at least the one in this thread - seem to be mostly concerned with ignoring or otherwise evading any questions about the decision-making process they'd employ. I answered the question because someone asked out of interest, let's see if the organizer answers it as well.


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## chilango (Dec 6, 2019)

I hope the Bookfair is as much fun as this discussion....


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## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Why should I? I'm not the one actually wielding such authority, and the actual organizers who have appointed themselves to said authority - or at least the one in this thread - seem to be mostly concerned with ignoring or otherwise evading any questions about the decision-making process they'd employ. I answered the question because someone asked out of interest, let's see if the organizer answers it as well.


why shouldn't you? you've invented this coercive mechanism of ejection, let's see you come up with a way of doing it which doesn't involve power.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> I hope the Bookfair is as much fun as this discussion....


you set the bar very low


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> why shouldn't you? you've invented this coercive mechanism of ejection, let's see you come up with a way of doing it which doesn't involve power.



You realize that this thread is public record and anyone can verify that it is not me but Rhyddical who "invented" this coercive mechanism of ejection? Indeed, my very first post in this thread was questioning Rhyddical on exactly the use of said mechanism and the limits and decision-making process of such self-appointed power.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you set the bar very low



I, for one, find it quite funny.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> You realize that this thread is public record and anyone can verify that it is not me but Rhyddical who "invented" this coercive mechanism of ejection? Indeed, my very first post in this thread was questioning Rhyddical on exactly the use of said mechanism and the limits and decision-making process of such self-appointed power.


you said you were unclear how this ejecting people would be enforced. go on then, show us how you'd do it.


----------



## Athos (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model what would you have done in the organisers' position, confronted with the HS situation at the last bookfair?


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## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> IIRC last time there was a disruption between Helen Steele and a group of about 30 people, where Helen stated that she supported the right of a couple of women to hand out flyers and *the group stating she wasn't allowed to state that*. How would you have solved this? Depends on who you consider to be causing said disruption, doesn't it?...





Larry Noppius said:


> Let's call the group distributing jehovah's witnesses stuff group A.
> Let's call the group vehemently objecting group B.
> It is decided that group A is expelled.
> Individual C disagrees with expelling group A.
> ...


Interesting re-write of what happened.

Disagreeing with someone, even quite loudly and aggressively, isn't the same as stating they're "not allowed" to state something or to disagree with what others have said


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you said you were unclear how this ejecting people would be enforced. go on then, show us how you'd do it.



I have:



Larry Noppius said:


> I'd have stopped the mobbing. Even if we grant that the flyers should not be allowed to be distributed for being too un-anarchistic (calling for participation in a government consultation) then merely disagreeing with that (not actually distributing any such flyers but merely disagreeing with the decision that they should not allowed to be distributed) is no grounds for exclusion, but mobbing someone for expressing such disagreement is. Basically I'd hold the mob responsible for the disruption.



Assuming that I am some random interested person who comes to the bookfair to learn about anarchism, would I be correct to conclude that one of anarchism's principles is not to challenge authority? You know, given your insistence of grilling _me_ about how to wield such authority - even though I don't actually wield it nor have even expressed interest in doing so - whereas you do not do so with the people actually wielding such authority - and seemingly enjoying to do so without bounds.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> Interesting re-write of what happened.
> 
> Disagreeing with someone, even quite loudly and aggressively, isn't the same as stating they're "not allowed" to state something or to disagree with what others have said



Pulling fire alarms and disrupting stands unless someone stops expressing disagreement with expelling some other group is more than just "disagreeing loudly and aggressively." And using aggression unless someone submits to not stating something is certainly one way of enforcing that someone is not "allowed to" state something, even if one doesn't literally say the exact words "you're not allowed to state this." If, by your version of what happened, there was nothing other than a group and an individual merely disagreeing with each other then there was no disruption in the first place?


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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> I hope the Bookfair is as much fun as this discussion....



Maybe we could re-enact this thread at the Bookfair? Like a shit version of Malatesta's _At The Cafe_?


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## chilango (Dec 6, 2019)

We could publish the transcript as a book and sell it. Like a shit* version of Bob Black's "Anarchy After Leftism".

*Well pretty much "as shit as" tbh.


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## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Pulling fire alarms and disrupting stands unless someone stops expressing disagreement with expelling some other group is more than just "disagreeing loudly and aggressively." And using aggression unless someone submits to not stating something is certainly one way of enforcing that someone is not "allowed to" state something, even if one doesn't literally say the exact words "you're not allowed to state this." If, by your version of what happened, there was nothing other than a group and an individual merely disagreeing with each other then there was no disruption in the first place?


What a load of dishonest, disingenuous bollocks (though of course you are *allowed* to post dishonest, disingenuous bollocks if you wish)


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> What a load of dishonest, disingenuous bollocks (though of course you are *allowed* to post dishonest, disingenuous bollocks if you wish)



You're always free to post your version of events and answer yourself the question of what you would've done with the HS thing. Otherwise I'm giving content-free handwaves as much consideration as they deserve, which is none.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Maybe we could re-enact this thread at the Bookfair? Like a shit version of Malatesta's _At The Cafe_?



Never actually read Malatesta. Any good?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> I have:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming that I am some random interested person who comes to the bookfair to learn about anarchism, would I be correct to conclude that one of anarchism's principles is not to challenge authority? You know, given your insistence of grilling _me_ about how to wield such authority - even though I don't actually wield it nor have even expressed interest in doing so - whereas you do not do so with the people actually wielding such authority - and seemingly enjoying to do so without bounds.


you said what you'd do. You haven't said *how* you'd do it. Do read the question.


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## Athos (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you said what you'd do. You haven't said *how* you'd do it. Do read the question.


What would you do, and how?


----------



## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> You're always free to post your version of events and answer yourself the question of what you would've done with the HS thing. Otherwise I'm giving content-free handwaves as much consideration as they deserve, which is none.



I don't need to post my "version" of events to point out that your "version" is dishonest, nor do I need to answer the question of what I would've done were I one of the organisers at a previous Bookfair.

And I'm sure readers of this thread can make their own minds up about how much consideration *your* posts deserve without any prompting from me.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> I don't need to post my "version" of events to point out that your "version" is dishonest, nor do I need to answer the question of what I would've done were I one of the organisers at a previous Bookfair.



True, you are under no requirement to support your assertions, and I am under no requirement to give them any consideration.



> And I'm sure readers of this thread can make their own minds up about how much consideration *your* posts deserve without any prompting from me.



Which must be why you chose to do some "prompting" anyway.


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## nyxx (Dec 6, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Is there an actual point to these hypotheticals or are you just wasting my time?
> 
> 
> 
> .




That’s rich coming from this profile.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 8, 2019)

I think I'm missing out on a fair bit of the thread with someone I've got on ignore tbh but yeah...

If there is a need to ask people to leave - for a variety of reasons - it will primarily be handled in a civl and courteous manner by the volunteers and proffesionals who will be there as general security.

To be quick frank, I think a pro-active response and  policvy of intervention from the B2020 will keep drama from being a thing. I think some of the issues of the past we're do to a stand back policy where the space was left to organise itself and respond mostly however it wishes. There is a solid arguement that that is more true to Anarchism and I've a lot of time for it, We've taken a slightly more formal structure sure but it's not going to be anything heavy handed or aggy.

There isn't a list of "groups to expel"... there is a list of groups we'd like to invite. We're working from a positive perpective not a negative one ;p The venue will be for stallholders... anyone who doesn't have a stall is actively encouraged to set up a fringe event or join RCG outside. Anyone is welcome to request a stall when the revised website goes live in early 2020 and we'll discuss all possible stallholders equally across our fair broad spectrum of organiser background... The things we'll be focusing on are Are they Anarchists, Anarachistic in nature, Is there a history of supporting dodge authoritarian regimes/ right wing christians etc, have there been incidents of meaningful distruption before,are they racists bigots etc etc have they ever called the cops on comrades that kind of thing.

This is all rather informal as a working model (we are Anarchists after all) but is pretty much standard for every event ever. LABC would of had a similar policy/method of not inviting trash and they most certainly never hosted any of the bigotted groups that exist... nothing much has changed there.


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## Red Sky (Dec 8, 2019)

Professionals?



Rhyddical said:


> I think I'm missing out on a fair bit of the thread with someone I've got on ignore tbh but yeah...
> 
> If there is a need to ask people to leave - for a variety of reasons - it will primarily be handled in a civl and courteous manner by the volunteers and proffesionals who will be there as general security.
> 
> ...


----------



## LDC (Dec 8, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Professionals?



One of the added dramas at the Manchester Bookfair last year with people being removed was made worse by someone who worked for the Partizan venue as SIA badged door staff and also knew both the people they were throwing out and other Bookfair attendees through living in the same area and having been peripherally involved in some activist politics.

During the whole mess he behaved in a totally unhinged way, losing any sense of detachment and calm professional attitude, including going on and on about being 'professional badged door staff' and then hiding his SIA badge when people tried to look at it (justified hilariously by saying "The police do it, why can't I?") screaming at various people pretty much randomly, and then twisting the arm of Helen Steel behind her back after grabbing her when she was sitting down and talking to someone else.

Hopefully any 'professionals' won't be like him the prick.


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## Red Sky (Dec 8, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One of the added dramas at the Manchester Bookfair last year with people being removed was someone who worked for the Partizan venue as SIA badged door staff and also knew both the people they were throwing out and other Bookfair attendees through living in the same area and having been peripherally involved in some activist politics.
> 
> During the whole mess he behaved in a totally unhinged way, losing any sense of detachment and calm professional attitude, including going on and on about being 'professional badged door staff' and then hiding his SIA badge when people tried to look at it (justified hilariously by saying "The police do it, why can't I?") screaming at various people pretty much randomly, and then twisting the arm of Helen Steel behind her back after grabbing her when she was sitting down and talking to someone else.
> 
> Hopefully any 'professionals' won't be like him the prick.



Well nothing says "Anarchy" quite as much as uniformed custodians of public order.  Move along now, ladies and gents, nothing to see here.


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## LDC (Dec 8, 2019)

I'm not against people working at Bookfairs as bar staff/door staff/whatever if it's needed, often it's a stipulation of the venue to have door staff somewhere.

I am against people behaving like totals cunts though, paid or not.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 8, 2019)

I was stood there watching the events you describe. They did not occour how you say at all.  He told them what was going to happen (IE they would be lifted and carried out the back)  and requested that they leave the venue and when they refused after a 20/30 minutes sit down protext they were lifted out and left outside. I don't believe there was any intention for HS to have their arm twisted, but that is a possibility when you refuse to respect the space and wish to stage a wee protest which you know means people have told you they are going to lift you out of a venue (one you have shown nothing but discontempt for)

Several people at the venue were really upset that she was there and were worried about the personal security (given some of the doxxing, police calling and hostility that has occoured in the past, quite understandably)

I understand out perspectives differ, so not really interested in going over it eternally other than to say this isn't a policy aimed at any of the transphobic crowd that caused rucus last time, tbh there are other bits of hubbub and barny that are a fair bit that are more concerning (namely fashy type and statists kicking off who have much less of to air of civility GC folk try to present.)

Why do you have this belief that Anarchist should be tolerant of bigotted people having such protests in their spaces showiong absolutely no respect or consideration for others? Why does anyone think we're making an event for everyone and their mam?.. Bookfair 2020 is a distinctly Anarchist event which is trans inclusive, etc etc and if that it's someones politics, and they can't respect the space they shouldn't come. If you want a liberal coffee and tea where everyone is welcome to chat whatever crap they want, then go to that event. Anarchist Bookfairs rarely feel the need to entertain such people.

Anarchists shouldn't be passive or "tolerant", being willing to step up and keep our communities safe.

re;SIA.
The venue requires badged people for their license.
Our primary security will be badged comrades (mostly women) who work in the sector.

Bookfairs generally have a degree of stewarding, more to help folk find their way about and such.
Given the history of bookfair and the tacit threats we've had it would seem only sensible to have proffessionally minded comrades present to deal with a variety of sitations, from political drama to slips and trips.
Aside from the Venue SIA, we're not paying people (thus far) and there will hopefully be a distinctly lack of "total cunts" with the name of the day being sorting things out civily and some conflict management training and the like given for stewards.

We've gone over both of these points earlier in the discussion and I'm sure you've no interest in the magic round about either so let's not get bogged down on this eh?


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## Serge Forward (Dec 8, 2019)

I always thought Anarchist Bookfairs were a 'showcase' of the anarchist scene with the wider population invited (fash etc excluded obviously). Is it just for anarchists now?


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## LDC (Dec 8, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I always thought Anarchist Bookfairs were a 'showcase' of the anarchist scene with the wider population invited (fash etc excluded obviously). Is it just for anarchists now?



Only good anarchists though. Not bad anarchists.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 8, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Is it just for anarchists now?



It is an Anarchist bookfair.
It's so "not just for Anarchists" that 5 pages back we're being told we're not an Anarchist bookfair.

For us, it is less a "showcase" and more a point of sharing information and developing the working class resistence to capitalism and the state etc , from Anarchist organisationa nd fellow travellers alike.

This doesn't mean that it's a platform for any or everyone. 

Who are the bad Anarchists? 

Who would put absolutes on people such as good/bad... thats a bit bullshit and you know it.
I'm not sure any of the people who would notably be refused entry actually call themselves Anarchist? ... of the three people I can think of right now who defiantly won't get through the door only one would call themselves a Anarchist and they are misogenist and a threat to women... the other two have told me they arn't Anarchists, one being a stalinist and the other a politically ambigous environmentalist.

You'll also find no welcome for Anarcho-Capitalists, Anarcho-Empiralists, Anarcho-Eco Facists or whatever weird fucking pockets of groups exist.

If you want such a bookfair, where everyone is welcome, but all means arrange one or even easier arrange fringe event for Bookfair 2020 thats an open foroum.

To provide a wellcoming, inclusive and safe environmental we won't be this.


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## Red Sky (Dec 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> only one would call themselves a Anarchist and they are misogenist and a threat to women...




Helen S?


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## Serge Forward (Dec 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> It is an Anarchist bookfair.
> It's so "not just for Anarchists" that 5 pages back we're being told we're not an Anarchist bookfair.
> 
> For us, it is less a "showcase" and more a point of sharing information and developing the working class resistence to capitalism and the state etc , from Anarchist organisationa nd fellow travellers alike.
> ...


Your bookfair, your rules (yours and the other people putting it on, that is). And that seems fair enough to me. If I like the look of it nearer the date, I'll probably turn up. If I don't, I wont. Obviously, this all assumes I won't be persona non grata on the day anyway


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## Rhyddical (Dec 8, 2019)

Yeah I guess at the end of the day it is "our party", but we want everyone to make themselves at home... just don't break any vases.

I think through the next year and then ahead into 2021, we'll be developing out "ruleset" so that it is minimal and workable and hopefully find solution to the issues other Bookfairs have faced and learn from their improvements.

In that we have a near open hand for folk to get involved and be part of that rule making and like I say, if folk wanted something more broad strokes they really might want to considor organising periphery events, I'm sure there would be interest and if at the end of the day that is what people are peitioning to do ie "be heard" that seems a better way to me that have a brief act of disruption whatever the basis of the politics (stalinism, Anti vaxxers, freemandims whatever)


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## Rhyddical (Dec 8, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Helen S?



No not Helen,tho I suspect you might think that as others have used such language? HS, I wouldn't know, I was told she's not a self described Anarchist but we've only ever spoke briefly before the past few years drama and since then the last conversation we had she posted the whole Women (n) stuff, which is a weaponised bit of transphobic prop to undermine women who are trans. Which was sad, because that goes beyond "fighting for the right of women to speak" to overtly parroting the vote of some very very nasty bigots who don't even masking their venom with symantics and reasonability. HS never comments or called out any of the more overt bigotry, straight up nasty shit that was on the thread, which made me quite sad to be honest as It was my understanding that she had found herself in a more approachable camp that did not condone or tolerate Transphobia and felt that label was unfair when placed on them... however this (and other things) sort of undermined that  alas.


----------



## Red Sky (Dec 8, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> No not Helen,tho I suspect you might think that as others have used such language? HS, I wouldn't know, I was told she's not a self proscribed Anarchist but we've only ever spoke briefly before the past few years drama and since then the last conversation we had she posted the whole Women (n) stuff, which is a weaponised bit of transphobic prop to undermine women who are trans. Which was sad, because that goes beyond "fighting for the right of women to speak" to overtly parroting the vote of some very very nasty bigots who don't even masking their venom with symantics and reasonability. HS never comments or called out any of the more overt bigotry, straight up nasty shit that was on the thread, which made me quite sad to be honest as It was my understanding that she had found herself in a more approachable camp that did not condone or tolerate Transphobia and felt that label was unfair when placed on them... however this (and other things) sort of undermined that  alas.



There's not many anarchists who are self proscribed,  although I suspect this bookfair will produce a few.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I think I'm missing out on a fair bit of the thread with someone I've got on ignore tbh but yeah...



"If I stick my fingers in my ears and go la la la can't hear you then the question goes away." And no amount of calling it "hypothetical" or "abstract" or "dishonest and disingenuous" stops it from being a concrete and quite relevant question, as relayed by the organizers of the previous bookfair:


> The woman who was later mobbed by up to about 30 people did not hand out the leaflets or have anything to do with their production or distribution – she simply said that they had the right to distribute them. For expressing this view, she was mobbed by a crowd of people some of whom, had we not stepped in, appeared bent on physically attacking her. We and other stall holders stepped in to prevent this from happening. If any individual within our movement is threatened with physical assault at the Bookfair we always try to do what we can to protect that person, and have done so (sadly too often) at previous Bookfairs over a number of different strongly felt issues, regardless of whether we personally share their views.
> 
> We have been accused of “protecting a fascist” and of being transphobic ourselves. All of us in the collective have physically confronted fascists on the streets, at meetings and in print, and we are baffled and upset by these accusations. Accusing a person of being a fascist because you don’t like their views is dishonest and dangerous. We are not going to apologise for protecting someone being mobbed by a group of up to about 30 people, and, along with others, preventing an ugly situation from deteriorating further.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 9, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> the last conversation we had she posted the whole Women (n) stuff, which is a weaponised bit of transphobic prop to undermine women who are trans.



You sure it's not just one of the myriad ways of pointing out you're a crackpot? You know, failing number 14 on the list, the need to properly define the terms used in your assertions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Must have missed my sarcastic grin. I don't belong to any particular movement.
> 
> The fact is tho, anarchism seems to me (and others like me- ) to be the most unpleasant of the lot. And if you think it's a case of "disengenouousness", then that's gonna be a problem of your movement, eh.
> 
> I know what my and others thoughts are. Up to you to acknowledge them or dismiss them. Not my problem, really.



I think that anarchism itself can't really be classified as a movement - it's too diffuse for that, and many anarchists don't agree with the anarchist orgs such as SolFed and Anarchist Federation, especially where IdPol is concerned. Although Ryddical is - for whatever reason - trying to characterise this as some sort of dislike of black and/or trans anarchists, it's not. It's a dislike of a particular analysis that has little to say about class, except as an identity to be assumed and worn.

There ARE some copper-bottomed unpleasant tossers on "the scene", though. I suppose that if I were writing a novel that was based around the scene, there'd be a fair share of middle-aged, grumpy, antisocial gits as characters.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> They're not similar circumstances. For a start, the Labour party is being deliberately hammered by the press over anti-Semitism while for transphobia it's the other way round, with pro-trans groups like Mermaids and Stonewall regularly being monstered.
> 
> Also if this turns into another fucking "I have the right to say X about trans people and not be told off" debate I'm gonna be off again for a while I think, it's so utterly tedious.



To be fair, rational analysis of Stonewall's output during the Hunt era shows that IF they're being monstered, it's because the LGB folk feel that Stonewall are all about the T nowadays.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It might seem a bit late in the day but it’s worth asking “what is the point of an anarchist book fair?” There’s quite a few answers. Help anarchists meet up with old comrades. Meet new ones. Publicise campaigns and organisations. Provide funding for bookshops and publishers. Have a good and interesting time encountering new and ideas etc. Above all to try and spread the word to all and sundry. Other anarchists, fellow travellers, radicals of all description. Plus interested punters off the street with little knowledge of anarchism. But this insistence in conformity to an ideological position on a side-issue on which there is not just a disagreement but a gaping chasm between the two sides does nobody any good. Rhyddical’s slagging off of those who disagree as bigots and transphobes is ignorant and offensive to very many comrades whose viewpoints are far from bigoted. It risks further entrenching division and scaring off many on the left, particularly feminists and particularly women.



What's the point of an anarchist bookfair? It allows me to put faces to the names on my list.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Noms? _Fucking NOMS?
> _
> FFS, enough about the trans debate, anyone using that expression at the Bookfair should be fucking beaten to death with a heavy dictionary.



I can lend you my double volume Polish/English. Weighs about 8kg per volume.

Anyway, it could have been worse. He could have said "the yum-yums".


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 10, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, rational analysis of Stonewall's output during the Hunt era shows that IF they're being monstered, it's because the LGB folk feel that Stonewall are all about the T nowadays.



Actually I was referring to reporters and pundits for the likes of the Times, Daily Mail and Express running regular hit pieces on them directly linked to their support for trans people. Generally speaking the LGBT press has been very pro Stonewall afaik, the only "LGB" group going after them is the relatively recent LGB Alliance, the purpose of which is pretty clear from the title. It's also rather unsurprising that Stonewall has been talking more about trans people really, as they're the ones currently on the frontline of a very nasty reactionary backlash which it's quite clear won't stop at the T if allowed to run its course.

Tbh that's the thing I find most baffling about the minority of LGB people who go in for trans-bashing - look a little way beyond your own nose and it's not hard to see who's next in line for a beating once reactionaries get the bit between their teeth. You don't even have to be a decent person to be into self-preservation.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 10, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, rational analysis of Stonewall's output during the Hunt era shows that IF they're being monstered, it's because the LGB folk feel that Stonewall are all about the T nowadays.



It's vital to protect the true gays from the trans and queer upstarts.  Also identity politics is bad and nothing to do with my politics.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 10, 2019)

With the sudden return of a few rather ugly souled people it's hard to keep a good track of this thread without clicking the show hidden content.

The moment I did I regretted it.

yuck.

Here for any actual questions about Bookfair ;p


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Actually I was referring to reporters and pundits for the likes of the Times, Daily Mail and Express running regular hit pieces on them directly linked to their support for trans people. Generally speaking the LGBT press has been very pro Stonewall afaik, the only "LGB" group going after them is the relatively recent LGB Alliance, the purpose of which is pretty clear from the title. It's also rather unsurprising that Stonewall has been talking more about trans people really, as they're the ones currently on the frontline of a very nasty reactionary backlash which it's quite clear won't stop at the T if allowed to run its course.
> 
> Tbh that's the thing I find most baffling about the minority of LGB people who go in for trans-bashing - look a little way beyond your own nose and it's not hard to see who's next in line for a beating once reactionaries get the bit between their teeth. You don't even have to be a decent person to be into self-preservation.



I said "folk", not "group".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> With the sudden return of a few rather ugly souled people it's hard to keep a good track of this thread without clicking the show hidden content.
> 
> The moment I did I regretted it.
> 
> ...



If you're going to name-call, have the courage to do so directly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2019)

smokedout said:


> It's vital to protect the true gays from the trans and queer upstarts.  Also identity politics is bad and nothing to do with my politics.



Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good fuckwit.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

> I said "folk", not "group".



All my apologies for inaccurately assuming that you weren't trying to speak, unevidenced, for the attitudes and behaviour of "LGB folk" in general ViolentPanda. I can't imagine what I was thinking.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 11, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> With the sudden return of a few rather ugly souled people it's hard to keep a good track of this thread without clicking the show hidden content.
> 
> The moment I did I regretted it.
> 
> ...



Your charade is ludicrous, no wonder you have to use formally structured and organized professional goons (with badges and all) to violently (twisting arms etc) expel anyone who dares to point out you're a crackpot who doesn't have a clue what you're talking about (which seems to be the reason for HS being persona non grata, that in some discussion she pointed out that you weren't defining the terms used in your various assertions). Anyway, if I want to see authoritarian cults in action I can do this much closer to home rather than going all the way to London to your "anarchist" bookfair.

And yes, indeed, failing to address the substance of points but merely putting on an ad-hom about how your critics are "ugly souled people" etc is yet another tell-tale sign of crackpottery. One could seriously play crackpot bingo with you.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

What I think is quite useful about the above is that the more Larry Noppious posts, the more clear it is what is meant when people say "gender critics", if indulged, ultimately bring little more than name-calling, misdirection and spite to the table.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 11, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> What I think is quite useful about the above is that the more Larry Noppious posts, the more clear it is what is meant when people say "gender critics", if indulged, ultimately bring little more than name-calling, misdirection and spite to the table.



Name-calling? You mean calling him - demonstrably correctly I may add - a crackpot? Ah yes, that was one of those other grounds for expulsion, "contempt" for authority. Nah, the term crackpot isn't all that bad, it's more descriptive of a particular type of reasoning than necessarily a value-judgement. Indeed, John Baez, the person who made up the Crackpot Index is quite emphatic to crackpots. And let's be honest, anarchist bookfairs have always been crank magnets, I don't particularly have a problem with that. It's the authority usurped to enforce adherence to particular assertions I have a problem with, combined with said authority being usurped by someone whose track record on this very thread alone clearly shows him to be pretty much the least trustworthy person to wield it. I mean, would I get my arm twisted and get thrown out by the Units for the Reinstatement of Order (can we call them MAT?) if I said something like "No there is no solid evidence of extra-terrestrial life, that grainy video of the purported alien autopsy is obviously fake"? Who the hell knows? Seems perfectly possible, all we get is a well-thought out description of the apparatus of power (badges, professionals, formal structure) but when it comes to the limits or basis of such power we simply get meaningless vagueries like "just don't break any vases." In practice, in as much as it can be determined, it seems to boil down to "don't point out I'm a crackpot or you'll get into trouble."


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> And let's be honest, anarchist bookfairs have always been crank magnets, I don't particularly have a problem with that.


somehow the cranks never do


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## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

Well judging by this thread I'd be demonstrably accurate in calling you a massive whinging arsehole whose presence at anarchist bookfairs won't be missed.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 11, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Well judging by this thread I'd be demonstrably accurate in calling you a massive whinging arsehole whose presence at anarchist bookfairs won't be missed.



Ah that must be an example of bringing something to the table that is more than just name-calling. No idea why you think I should care about my presence not being missed by some group. I mean, I don't particularly care that my presence wouldn't be missed in a scientology meeting either.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

I'd be more constructive, but your presence is basically just aggy spam at this point so no need really. I'm glad you're not fussed, I look forward to this being reflected in a lack of further shit-posting on your part.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 11, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I'd be more constructive, but your presence is basically just aggy spam at this point so no need really. I'm glad you're not fussed, I look forward to this being reflected in a lack of further shit-posting on your part.



I shall continue to post what and when I will, but if it bothers you so much you are of course free and welcome to use the ignore function.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

Sadly the ignore function doesn't prevent you from dribbling bile everywhere, I'd rather just be frank that your approach is unpleasant, your interventions aren't going anywhere and your efforts on this thread are thus pointless at best. So why no do yourself a  favour (even if the howwible people who want to talk about actual bookfairs in a vaguely constructive way benefit as well).


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 11, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Sadly the ignore function doesn't prevent you from dribbling bile everywhere



Sucks to be you I guess. Funny how it's not just enough for you to decide not to want to see my "bile" everywhere, ie use the ignore function, but find it necessary to decide for everyone else as well. After all, the ignore function isn't limited to you, anyone who agrees with you on that can decide to use it for themselves as well. But we wouldn't want that, right, people thinking and deciding for themselves...



> I'd rather just be frank that your approach is unpleasant, your interventions aren't going anywhere and your efforts on this thread ares thus pointless at best.



Yes you've already told me as much with the "your presence won't be missed" but I still have no idea why you keep insisting that I should care about your thoughts on such. Is it really so impossible for you to even imagine that there could, perhaps, be at least one person who doesn't fall all over themselves to care about every random thought that pops into your head?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> Sucks to be you I guess. Funny how it's not just enough for you to decide not to want to see my "bile" everywhere, ie use the ignore function, but find it necessary to decide for everyone else as well. After all, the ignore function isn't limited to you, anyone who agrees with you on that can decide to use it for themselves as well. But we wouldn't want that, right, people thinking and deciding for themselves...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you've already told me as much with the "your presence won't be missed" but I still have no idea why you keep insisting that I should care about your thoughts on such. Is it really so impossible for you to even imagine that there could, perhaps, be at least one person who doesn't fall all over themselves to care about every random thought that pops into your head?


reckon sooner or later editor or FridgeMagnet will decide for everyone whether to continue to host your drivel.


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## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

I'm not asking you to care, I'm suggesting you bugger off and make both your and everyone else's lives just that little bit brighter.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 11, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good fuckwit.



Then perhaps don't put words in the mouths of an entire community, most of whom do not think what you claim.

Anyway on this thread we're discussing the practicalities of managing an event to promote radical working class politics at a time when the movement is embroiled in a deep split.  If you want to moan about the boss of a liberal charity appearing to prioritise one identity over others then I don't know, perhaps Goldsmith's has a message board.


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## Athos (Dec 11, 2019)

smokedout said:


> ... we're discussing the practicalities of managing an event to promote radical working class politics... perhaps Goldsmith's has a message board.



Lol. Goldsmiths students are 'managing' this event.


----------



## Athos (Dec 11, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I'd be more constructive, but your presence is basically just aggy spam at this point so no need really. I'm glad you're not fussed, I look forward to this being reflected in a lack of further shit-posting on your part.



Whilst I'm not sure Larry Noppius has done themself any favours with how they've gone about it, in fairness I suspect that's partly down to frustration at Rhyddical's failure to even acknowledge the legitimate issues Larry has raised.  If you appoint yourself to a position of power, then decline to be accountable, that's going to put noses out of joint in any setting, never mind in anarchist circles!


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 11, 2019)

Athos said:


> Whilst I'm not sure Larry Noppius has done themself any favours with how they've gone about it, in fairness I suspect that's partly down to frustration at Rhyddical's failure to even acknowledge the legitimate issues Larry has raised.  If you appoint yourself to a position of power, then decline to be accountable, that's going to put noses out of joint in any setting, never mind in anarchist circles!



It should have done me neither any favours nor disfavours, the validity of an argument is independent of how well the person making it conforms to some arbitrary set of social norms and codes you've chosen to apply.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2019)

That would be true if your "arguments" had validity and were aimed at people who might be interested in them. Instead however they consist of poisonous word salads thrown at people who  them simply find them tedious and mildly disruptive. You don't get listened to, and we get mildly annoyed. The whole thing is utterly pointless.


----------



## Athos (Dec 11, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> It should have done me neither any favours nor disfavours, the validity of an argument is independent of how well the person making it conforms to some arbitrary set of social norms and codes you've chosen to apply.



Maybe.  But that's not how human interaction typically works.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 11, 2019)

I don't think it's a deep split at all.

Given that there isn't a single Anarchist organisation or network that will express solidarity with WPUK or any of that lot.

At Manchester Bookfair, everyone handed read it, pulled a funny face and gave their leaflet back... and laughed when they left too. Coz there isn't a split and no one wants to entertain bigots. At best people are being polite.

Maybe a few years ago, the Anarchist Scene was a little less unsure about the whole issue but now I think everyone it quite aware about the players and organisations and we've all seen the truly horrific shit they have said and tolerated to be said in their spaces.

Don't agree, by all means set up outside or near bookfair,  let's see how many Anarchists would entertain the ideas presented. Seriously, not as an organiser of Bookfair but a comrade here... If you TRULY think that this is actually a split in Anarchism and Anarchists want to hear or agree with this, instead of having a 20 minute barny at Bookfair 2020, those thinking to come would do much better to organise something propor and be there for the day... if SO MANY Anarchists actually support your position you'll have a great day I'm sure! 

Personally I don't think a single Anarchist would entertain this deeply bigotted positions even if a dogwhistle or symatical arguement confuses the issue for while.


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Given that there isn't a single Anarchist organisation or network that will express solidarity with WPUK or any of that lot.



I don't know if you're wilfully misrepresenting things or something else is going on, but nobody is talking about 'solidarity' or not with WPUK as being any kind of split.

It's about a much more complex mix of views on what makes a women, how that might differ from being a trans-woman, and how to reconcile the conflict or potential conflict between those things in some specific small areas. And in that there is a massive split in the anarchist scene, to pretend it's all roses and common agreement is wrong, with this thread (and others on here) being exhibit A to prove it.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 11, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> I don't think it's a deep split at all.
> 
> Given that there isn't a single Anarchist organisation or network that will express solidarity with WPUK or any of that lot.
> 
> ...



Identifying a split, which exists whether you like it or not and is a reason I no longer feel that comfortable around some people I've known and worked with for 20 years, does not mean the movement is split down the middle.  Most political splits involve a highly vocal minority breaking away.  Neither does it mean that I give equal weight to the arguments of both sides.

You need to sharpen up btw.  And not make assumptions.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 11, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Coz there isn't a split and no one wants to entertain bigots.
> 
> Personally I don't think a single Anarchist would entertain this deeply bigotted positions



Well, there you go. If you don’t agree you are a bigot. Not only that, not one single anarchist could possibly agree with your ideas because if you did, well they couldn’t be an anarchist, after all. Talk about a complete bollocks argument.


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't know if you're wilfully misrepresenting things or something else is going on, but nobody is talking about 'solidarity' or not with WPUK as being any kind of split.
> 
> It's about a much more complex mix of views on what makes a women, how that might differ from being a trans-woman, and how to reconcile the conflict or potential conflict between those things in some specific small areas. And in that there is a massive split in the anarchist scene, to pretend it's all roses and common agreement is wrong, with this thread (and others on here) being exhibit A to prove it.



...and the split isn't just the conflict over those pretty specific issues but there may well be a more general cultural erosion over class, identity "calling out" and so on (idpol as it's crudely short-handed).


----------



## Athos (Dec 11, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...and the split isn't just the conflict over those pretty specific issues but there may well be a more general cultural erosion over class, identity "calling out" and so on (idpol as it's crudely short-handed).


And the exercise of power over other anarchists by self-appointed bosses.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 11, 2019)

........... so not a _"deep split"_ in the movement at all.... check.
More some people on a thread and some people who don't call themselves Anarchists thinking that a specifically anti bigotry Anarchist space is the best place to shout about it....to her, show that they arn't bigotted against people they refuse to acknowledge the existance off. Kewl.

Should really add as well that this really only exists in the mileu of London. I've not met any Anarchists either in the UK that report such a rife problem as real world events. Comrades round the world think we're barmy too and this literally doesn't exist as a proble in the Anarchist scene anywhere else.

If it amounts as a split I'd say "whether Anarchists vote" or "are dreads ok" are much bigger ones.

It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with... 

Idpol is indeed a problem and a lot of people slip into it on near every factor... That shouldn't an excuse not to call of bigotry and labelling things Idpol as a mask for bigotry is pretty shitty too... It's happened a little on this thread and it's sure as shit happens across social media and you know...the world. Acknowledgeing the rights of, and the specific issues felt by the trans community is not IDPol. It's solidarity.

The irony here is that feminists had to fight for their place in the movement facing the same shit, and even now we work against misogyny in the movement.


----------



## LDC (Dec 12, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> Should really add as well that this really only exists in the mileu of London. I've not met any Anarchists either in the UK that report such a rife problem as real world events. Comrades round the world think we're barmy too and this literally doesn't exist as a proble in the Anarchist scene anywhere else.



What? It's been (and still is) a massive area of disagreement in the city I live in (NOT LONDON) resulting in fallouts and people leaving the scene and city (including 2 trans people basically driven out for not toeing the line that trans women are exactly the same as women) and I know other people in other cities where it's an issue as well. A reason why it might not seem that way is basically most people I know have reached a position of not discussing or even mentioning it as it seems to be an issue with no constructive way forward between the groups that disagree, including a good number of women I know who are scared to do so lest they be bullied and harassed as they've seen happen to others.

Also I think you really might just mean the USA when you say 'round the world'. In France, Eastern Europe, and some other places I have good comrades in they say it is a topic that's starting to come up there with similar results and conflicts as here. As for further afield, have you been anywhere with a non-Western anarchist movement/scene? They might well think we're barmy about this, but not for the reasons you might think.

And this is all just in the anarchist scene. Have you talked to anyone outside that about this issue? It is very definitely not all simple and decided upon.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 12, 2019)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Well, there you go. If you don’t agree you are a bigot.



At the risk of repeating myself, that is typical and expected behaviour for crackpots. There is, after all, a reason why "Comparing those who argue against your beliefs to Nazis, stormtroopers or brownshirts" get its own item on the index netting almost the maximum number of points.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 12, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> More some people on a thread and some people who don't call themselves Anarchists thinking that a specifically anti bigotry Anarchist space is the best place to shout about it....to her, show that they arn't bigotted against people they refuse to acknowledge the existance off. Kewl.
> 
> {...}
> 
> It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with...



People both refuse to acknowledge the existence of transwomen _and_ complain about the existence of transwomen in women's sports? Do you realize you're talking literal nonsense?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Also I think you really might just mean the USA when you say 'round the world'. In France, Eastern Europe, and some other places I have good comrades in they say it is a topic that's starting to come up there with similar results and conflicts as here. As for further afield, have you been anywhere with a non-Western anarchist movement/scene? They might well think we're barmy about this, but not for the reasons you might think.



Belgium and the Netherlands too, it's been starting to come up here from about a year or two ago.


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> ........... so not a _"deep split"_ in the movement at all.... check.
> More some people on a thread and some people who don't call themselves Anarchists thinking that a specifically anti bigotry Anarchist space is the best place to shout about it....to her, show that they arn't bigotted against people they refuse to acknowledge the existance off. Kewl.
> 
> Should really add as well that this really only exists in the mileu of London. I've not met any Anarchists either in the UK that report such a rife problem as real world events. Comrades round the world think we're barmy too and this literally doesn't exist as a proble in the Anarchist scene anywhere else.
> ...



As far as "calling out" goes...you know some of us probably aren't seeing bigoted posts here right? We may have posters on ignore? 

There is also, imo, a problem with "call out" culture. It's not the same as challenging and changing us it?

I'd also echo LynnDoyleCooper in that it's not confined to London. In my dull town with no scene to speak of and only a handful of activists it casts a shadow.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Larry Noppius said:


> At the risk of repeating myself, that is typical and expected behaviour for crackpots. There is, after all, a reason why "Comparing those who argue against your beliefs to Nazis, stormtroopers or brownshirts" get its own item on the index netting almost the maximum number of points.


You should get out more


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## LDC (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You should get out more



I definitely should too tbh.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I definitely should too tbh.


I'd rather stop in with a cup of tea, cake and a good book.


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You should get out more



But it's cold outside. And there are people there.


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## Red Sky (Dec 12, 2019)

To be honest these rows and the increasingly authoritarian methods used to enforce the current orthodoxy * are just a symptom of the general morubundity of the anarchist movement and it's retreat into a scene. No wonder the kids are out with Corbyn. 


* Is there some kind of Kropotkins Law "The more ludicrous the proposition the more physical force required to impose it"?


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## Larry Noppius (Dec 12, 2019)

Besides, it was an explanatory and informative point. The organizers of the previous bookfair stated they were "baffled" of being accused of being fascists but there's nothing to be baffled about, it's entirely to be expected. The model "crackpottery + authoritarianism" happens to fit the observations very well, you can hardly blame me for noticing this. Well, I suppose you can blame me all you want, but if you want me to adopt a different model you'll have to show it to be a better fit.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 12, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> If it amounts as a split I'd say "whether Anarchists vote" or "are dreads ok" are much bigger ones.



Perhaps if this situation affected you more personally you might see things differently.  But when people I've known for decades, people I considered solid comrades, are sharing batshit conspiracy theories on facebook or supporting and following those who seek to delegitimise trans lives entirely then you might feel this more acutely.



> It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with...



I don't know if this is aimed at me but if so .. had it occurred to you that most trans people would rather not have endless arguments about whether trans women are really women or trans people in sports on thread after thread after thread.  And as such not engaging with fly by night posters who have only turned up to push a transphobic agenda is one way of trying to mitigate that.  There is a thread on here hundreds of pages long where all these things have been discussed, and whilst there are issues concerning how the bookfair manages this situation then perhaps the broader aspects of the discussion could take place on there.


----------



## smokedout (Dec 12, 2019)

Honestly Rhyddical I know you're trying to help, but its really not a lot of fun to be constantly argued over or seen as a source of controversy at every possible chance.  You've stated your policies, discuss those and fine tune them by all means, but as bookfair organisers, rather than individuals, you really should be looking to rise above the endless 'debate' over trans lives and doing what you can to take the heat off it.  Because otherwise the bookfair will remain all about trans issues, and that's not a bookfair many trans people will feel comfortable attending.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In France, Eastern Europe, and some other places I have good comrades in they say it is a topic that's starting to come up there with similar results and conflicts as here.



I'd be interested in knowing more if you have any further info? (Tho I did mean the US, South America, Europe Asia and even Africa, based on feedback from international comrades)

Re, the issue aroudn the UK

I guess we just exist around differance bubbles of Anarchists as It's certainly never a core issue in any Anarchist network I know.

To be clear here... I'm saying actual Transphobic Anarchists.... not People (I assume like yourself, not trying to misrepresent or anything honestly x) who occupy some hinterland, willing to hear both sides and who have a more complex position, one which is routed in ensuring that neither "side" is oppressed and trying to bridge these differant perspectives...  It's sad that folk with this "middle position" (for sake of not rambling on) often get placed in the Bigot/Terf/Enemy etc catagory out of hand... It can be a very problematic minefield that one, and one, we have been skirting through on the thread.

I'm an not saying that those difficult discussions don't exist across the country/internationally.

Rather people who say things like "men who cut their cock off arn't women" and "trans people are just mentally ill", probably down to "women n etc" which is commonly recognised as a dogwhistle (overt or otherwise) of those harder positions....  these arn't really found in Anarchist communities outside of London (from my experiances), where as I have had the displeaure of finding it both online and indeed in London.

The issue with not allowing stalls from bigots, isn't to stymie those with concerns but those who are bigotted. Transphobic groups want to try and project that the response to these two "groupings" is the same, and that it's "anti-woman" but this simply isn't true, sure there are more militant TRA's and Cisphobic people but tbh their position comes from one of oppression and of being abused systematically by the state of the wider community, so I have more time for understanding it, even if it can be quite ugly.


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## Rhyddical (Dec 13, 2019)

smokedout said:


> you really should be looking to rise above the endless 'debate' over trans lives and doing what you can to take the heat off it.  Because otherwise the bookfair will remain all about trans issues, and that's not a bookfair many trans people will feel comfortable attending.




You are right.

I'm easily baited. This issue is a deeply personal one and well, fuck, I do like to correct people who are wrong on the internet.

I keep saying "this is the last I'll bite" and then getting dragged into it, but yeah. honestly. fingers crossed, I shant talk any more of the transphobia issue x ;p


----------



## Athos (Dec 13, 2019)

Rhyddical said:


> To be clear here... I'm saying actual Transphobic Anarchists.... not People (I assume like yourself, not trying to misrepresent or anything honestly x) who occupy some hinterland, willing to hear both sides and who have a more complex position, one which is routed in ensuring that neither "side" is oppressed and trying to bridge these differant perspectives...  It's sad that folk with this "middle position" (for sake of not rambling on) often get placed in the Bigot/Terf/Enemy etc catagory out of hand...



Lol. That's EXACTLY what you've done!




Rhyddical said:


> Rather people who say things like "men who cut their cock off arn't women" and "trans people are just mentally ill", probably down to "women n etc" which is commonly recognised as a dogwhistle (overt or otherwise) of those harder positions....  these arn't really found in Anarchist communities outside of London (from my experiances), where as I have had the displeaure of finding it both online and indeed in London.



Certainly no anarchists here are arguing for those positions.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 17, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> Oh ok, sorry Magnus McGinty. I have also been once or twice.



You need to get a refund on that crystal ball as it’s giving you incorrect readings.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

So will you try and bar Helen Steel then?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 17, 2020)

and i’m guessing the Catholic Workers and the Quakers fall prey to your filter Rhyddical?


----------



## chilango (Feb 17, 2020)

Has something happened to cause this bump?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> Has something happened to cause this bump?



Me replying to a comment about me previously. Surely this is allowable or is there some statue of limitations on it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> Has something happened to cause this bump?


Spring? I'm back kind of thing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 17, 2020)

Not for long, you’ll be pleased to learn. Quickly reminded how much this place is a hotbed of wannabe coppers.


----------



## chilango (Feb 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me replying to a comment about me previously. Surely this is allowable or is there some statue of limitations on it?



Just wondered if something had happened elsewhere that I'd missed. That's all.


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## LDC (Feb 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> Just wondered if something had happened elsewhere that I'd missed. That's all.



The ex-cop and that court case over the tweets has been in the media recently, and it's been coming up in the Labour leadership race a bit too.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 18, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The ex-cop and that court case over the tweets has been in the media recently, and it's been coming up in the Labour leadership race a bit too.



At this stage perhaps all we can do is congratulate the anarchist movement for being ahead of the game in getting torn to bits by this toxic pile of shit.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 18, 2020)

Wow are we really rezzin this dead thread?

Helen Steel is a transphobe who even ignoring the situation which occoured at the 2017 Bookfair has a repeatedly shared transphobic, bigoted content on her twitter account and other places. this includes a thread on our twitter where she not only posted transphobic content but encouraged a vast array of deeply abusive and overtly hostile tweets from her followers of the "trans women are rapists and perverts // men who chopped their cock off" variety. Regardless of your personal position re; Anarchist events having "rules", any sane person can see why bigots are not welcome at spaces that are about organising against bigots. This includes otherwise sound activists who have done lots to fight big corps and work for womens rights.

This goes for all the pricks who are currently so invested in advocating the idea that providing medical support for trans people is a eugenics campaign against the gay community.

Bigots have no place in the Anarchist scene and are not welcome at events that we organise.

Aside from that, I'm not being baited again, you do you U75 x

What do the Quakers and Catholic Workerd have to do with that?
If you are concerned that we are not allowed organisations whose faith is part of their politics then I'd ask Jewdas who have a stall.
Far as I'm aware the Quakers would be more than welcome to attend and I have no idea who the Catholic Workers but unless they are some Stalinist front I'm sure they are welcome too.

Any actual questions about the Bookfair and I'll get back to you.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 19, 2020)

Thanks for the reply, I was a little worried about that.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 19, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Helen Steel is a transphobe who even ignoring the situation which occoured at the 2017 Bookfair has a repeatedly shared transphobic, bigoted content on her twitter account and other places. this includes a thread on our twitter where she not only posted transphobic content but encouraged a vast array of deeply abusive and overtly hostile tweets from her follower of the "trans women are rapists, perverts // men who chopped their cock off" variety. Regardless of your person position of Anarchist events having "rules", any sane person can see why bigots are not welcome at spaces that are about organising against bigots. This includes otherwise sound activists who have done lots to fight big corps and work for womens rights.
> 
> This goes for all the pricks who are currently so invested in advocating the idea that providing medical support for trans people is a eugenics campaign against the gay community.
> 
> Bigots have no place in the Anarchist scene and are not welcome at events that we organise.


Here we go again. The anarchist ‘movement’ once more comes across as intolerant and unwelcoming. Believe me, I don’t want to get involved with this crap any more than most people (yeah, I know, why don’t you shut up then?), but your intemperate statements cannot go unchallenged every time you make them. If Helen Steel is transphobic then give us an example. You can’t expect her to monitor all the responses from her twitter followers, nor comment on everything that she re-posts. 

I quite agree that unsympathetic language towards trans people is unhelpful, but that comes with the territory of social media. It is not the sole property of gender critical feminists. Indeed some trans activists have been known to get involved in a similar way. Don’t forget that most CG and trans activists aren’t anarchists anyway.

But just labelling people you don’t agree with as bigots and pricks, and seeking to silence them in this way - it doesn’t help you make your case well.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 19, 2020)

Sadly, Steel has engaged in and regurgitated some pretty unpleasant and at times bordering on conspiraloonery stuff over the last few years (I wrote about some of my thoughts on this thread previously), and as someone who once had respect for and showed solidarity with her, and despite trying to stay away from much of this debacle, it becomes very difficult to remain objective and let it go. This whole situation has bought out some of the most selective-memory, two-faced, disingenuous, shit I've ever seen, and disappointingly even on urban.

Anyway, hope to see some of you at Anarchist bookfair later in the year, and also Radical bookfair before then. I'm out.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If Helen Steel is transphobic then give us an example.



Multiple examples have already been posted in this very thread. I find it very hard to believe, given how active you are on this subject, that you haven't ever been provided them before and tbh it's exactly that kind of deliberate ignoring of blatant realities and previous answers, which I've seen over and over again from "gender critical" people, which has made this entire conversation so impossible.

Fact is you know perfectly well she's on the hard end of anti-trans campaigning, you'd have to be blind not to see it. This is about wearing people down until you have the floor to yourself, not having a genuine conversation. First we do the argument, then everything dies down for a couple of weeks and then lo and behold, the same "reasonable" questions that had previously been answered get asked again (usually on a different thread, but apparently not always), until people throw their hands up and stop bothering to engage/be polite, at which point you shout about censorship and silencing and "unwelcoming" atmospheres. It's utterly tedious.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Multiple examples have already been posted in this very thread. I find it very hard to believe, given how active you are on this subject, that you haven't ever been provided them before and tbh it's exactly that kind of deliberate ignoring of blatant realities and previous answers, which I've seen over and over again from "gender critical" people, which has made this entire conversation so impossible. Everything dies down for a couple of weeks and then lo and behold, the same "reasonable" questions that had previously been answered get asked again, until people throw their hands up and stop bothering to engage/be polite, at which point you shout about censorship and silencing. It's utterly tedious.


Tedious is the word. The trouble is that we don’t all seem to have the same understanding of the realities of the world. That’s a problem which no one has the time or patience to deal with. This has all started again because of Rhydiccal banging on about transphobes and picks, again. Censoring and silencing relates to who is or is not to be allowed at the 
Bookfair. There is a fault line on this issue in all sorts of political groups and movements. You don’t have all the answers. You keep seeing the same questions because your answers don’t convince an awful lot of people. I’ll keep shtum if everyone else does.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

Helen saying the trans rights movement is funded by George Soros isn't just not having the same understanding of the world, it's fitting the world around a viewpoint that trans people are the enemy. Please acknowledge that first before moving on to casting yet more aspersions.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 19, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Tedious is the word. The trouble is that we don’t all seem to have the same understanding of the realities of the world. That’s a problem which no one has the time or patience to deal with. This has all started again because of Rhydiccal banging on about transphobes and picks, again. Censoring and silencing relates to who is or is not to be allowed at the
> Bookfair. There is a fault line on this issue in all sorts of political groups and movements. You don’t have all the answers. You keep seeing the same questions because your answers don’t convince an awful lot of people. I’ll keep shtum if everyone else does.



So you’d welcome transphobes, homophobes, racists & fascists to the book fair then? Stop blaming this utter wank on one poster on this thread.


----------



## LDC (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Helen saying the trans rights movement is funded by George Soros.



Can you show me where she's said that?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

I linked to it five posts ago. Anyone else want to ask the same bloody question without checking the thread? Please get it out of the way now.

Edit: Actually looking at it you were active on this particular thread back in August when it was first posted.


----------



## LDC (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> I linked to it five posts ago. Anyone else want to ask the same bloody question without checking the thread? Please get it out of the way now.
> 
> Edit: Actually looking at it you were active on this particular thread back in August when it was first posted.



Yeah, and I missed or maybe forgot it in the mess this all is. Seen it now. Happy?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

Sorry, see above about the tediousness of all this for why I'm a little tetchy.


----------



## kenny g (Feb 19, 2020)

Do we think Helen Steel maybe subject to prolonged microdosing? Those posts are fucking mad.


----------



## LDC (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Sorry, see above about the tediousness of all this for why I'm a little tetchy.



Yup. I'm out of the whole thing (bookfair/scene/anarchists generally) to be honest, only partly this issue, but it comes on the back of a fuck tonne of shit behaviour, pathetic and pointless activity, a lack of seriousness, world shaking levels of flakiness, and more back-stabbing and juvenile attitudes than a playground of toddlers. Fuck it all. We need anarchism without any (most) of the anarchists.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

Not far off feeling that way myself sometimes tbh, but I try to remember there's plenty of anarchist types who just get on with things as best they can and do a damn good job of it, away from all the internet shouting.


----------



## LDC (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Not far off feeling that way myself sometimes tbh, but I try to remember there's plenty of anarchist types who just get on with things as best they can and do a damn good job of it, away from all the internet shouting.



Yeah totally. I'm not even on any SM (U75 apart), think how I'd be if I immersed myself in that fucking mess though.


----------



## kenny g (Feb 19, 2020)

I do suspect that some of the trans agenda has been fed by the security service as a divide and rule. After all they are stonewalls top employer. However, I am sure some of the push back has also been fed by the same forces. We are being played like fools...


----------



## kenny g (Feb 19, 2020)

We need to design whole new platforms and ways of doing things.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 19, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Wow are we really rezzin this dead thread?
> 
> Helen Steel is a transphobe who even ignoring the situation which occoured at the 2017 Bookfair has a repeatedly shared transphobic, bigoted content on her twitter account and other places. this includes a thread on our twitter where she not only posted transphobic content but encouraged a vast array of deeply abusive and overtly hostile tweets from her followers of the "trans women are rapists and perverts // men who chopped their cock off" variety. Regardless of your personal position re; Anarchist events having "rules", any sane person can see why bigots are not welcome at spaces that are about organising against bigots. This includes otherwise sound activists who have done lots to fight big corps and work for womens rights.
> 
> ...


I despair of this whole issue, even to the point where I have just about no position on it (having swayed around between bits of what both sides have argued in the past). One of those awful issues where there are genuine, real people with a lot invested in both/all camps, but others who seem to naturally reach for the worst bits of identity politics - and little chance of drawing the good out from the bad. Only thing I can say is there's a desperate need for people to be less categoric, a real need to get back to principles of class struggle, solidarity and the structural. Fuck knows how and as someone who is neither trans nor female I'm not directly invested in it. But fucking hell,  anybody who thinks we need a movement, something that actually functions, something that looks outwards, has the right to despair about it.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> I linked to it five posts ago. Anyone else want to ask the same bloody question without checking the thread? Please get it out of the way now.
> 
> Edit: Actually looking at it you were active on this particular thread back in August when it was first posted.



Does Soros fund trans advocacy?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

Tbh name me a trans-specific lobby group that he could even fund. Outside of Stonewall (which isn't trans-specific) and maybe Mermaids (which famously got its funding via the Lottery in the face of a nasty smear campaign led by Graham "it's like the Nazis" Linehan and the Times newspaper) there's really not anything much I can think of. Professional trans advocacy is less industry, more fallacy.

Ultimately a better question is the one underneath - is trans advocacy a well-funded conspiracy to silence and damage the rights of women? No. Clearly not. In fact all the money and media power is quite obviously on the other side of the debate. And yet it's common enough currency to assume this in Steel's circles that not only did she fail to shut down one of the most famous modern anti-Semitic tropes in the world, she went for a "well not just him" reply when asked about it.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Tbh name me a trans-specific lobby group that he could even fund. Outside of Stonewall (which isn't trans-specific) and maybe Mermaids (which famously got its funding via the Lottery in the face of a nasty smear campaign led by Graham "it's like the Nazis" Linehan and the Times newspaper) there's really not anything much I can think of. Professional trans advocacy is less industry, more fallacy.
> 
> Ultimately a better question is the one underneath - is trans advocacy a well-funded conspiracy to silence and damage the rights of women? No. Clearly not. In fact all the money and media power is quite obviously on the other side of the debate. And yet it's common enough currency to assume this in Steel's circles that she not only didn't fail to shut down one of the most famous modern anti-Semitic tropes in the world, she went for a "well not just him" reply when asked about it.



There's a fair bit here...





__





						LGBTQI
					

The Open Society Foundations seek to combat discrimination by empowering lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersex communities to promote and defend their human rights.




					www.opensocietyfoundations.org


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 19, 2020)

Is this book fair happening or what?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2020)

yes
october


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> There's a fair bit here...



That's the advocacy page for the Open Society Foundation, which yes indeed features pro-trans rights articles, but is not evidence that George Soros is engaged in a conspiracy of "very rich male backers funding the rapid spread of this ideology".

The page you're looking for is this open list of funding grants which, listing trans-specific advocacy, has an enormous three fellowships, one internship and 12 grants, mostly aimed at alleviating horrendously dangerous situations in Africa and Latin America, with a couple in the US and one in Europe, based in Budapest. The number of UK advocacy groups to have received money is ... zero.

Having checked I was actually mildly surprised tbh, I thought the institution might have tossed a bit of money Mermaid's way at some point. But no, it is actually a full-on unevidenced conspiracy theory that a Jewish billionaire is the true power behind trans rights activism.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> That's the advocacy page for the Open Society Foundation, which yes indeed features pro-trans rights articles, but is not evidence that George Soros is engaged in a conspiracy of "very rich male backers funding the rapid spread of this ideology".
> 
> The page you're looking for is this open list of funding grants which, listing trans-specific advocacy, has an enormous three fellowships, one internship and 12 grants, mostly aimed at alleviating horrendously dangerous situations in Africa and Latin America, with a couple in the US and one in Europe, based in Budapest. The number of UK advocacy groups to have received money is ... zero.
> 
> Having checked I was actually mildly surprised tbh, I thought the institution might have tossed a bit of money Mermaid's way at some point. But no, it is actually a full-on unevidenced conspiracy theory that a Jewish billionaire is the true power behind trans rights activism.



Not sure that it's anti Semitic to say that George Soros is doing stuff that he's actually doing .


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

I just showed he isn't "doing stuff" though (and even so, I should point out that he most likely sees very few of those grants through personally in any case - he has a board for that sort of thing). The anti-Semitic bit is the specific naming of Soros, once again, as a prominent liberal Jew / shady backroom money man manipulating society, as you know.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> I just showed he isn't "doing stuff" though (and even so, I should point out that he most likely sees very few of those grants through personally in any case - he has a board for that sort of thing). The anti-Semitic bit is the specific naming of Soros, once again, as a prominent liberal Jew / shady backroom money man manipulating society, as you know.



He is a money man trying to manipulate society.  He's pretty open about it. Mentioning him or the fact he has an agenda isn't  anti Semitic and shouldn't be particularly controversial.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

And yet.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 19, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> And yet.



Do you really need me to point out the logical fallacy there?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm going to be charitable and assume you're not getting what I'm actually saying. Soros was namechecked as being the money man in a conspiracy. No-one else specific, just the Jew "and others". I've now shown, using the website you provided, that this suggestion was unevidenced. So to summarise: A really famous rich liberal Jew was named, without evidence, as the man funding a conspiracy to undermine society.

Hence the picture. Orban used precisely the same insinuation, against the same man, highlighting Soros specifically as the evil individual Jew conspiring to ruin Hungary. Is this clear?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm going to be charitable and assume you're not getting what I'm actually saying. Soros was namechecked as being the money man in a conspiracy. No-one else specific, just the Jew "and others". I've now shown, using the website you provided, that this suggestion was unevidenced. So to summarise: A really famous rich liberal Jew was named, without evidence, as the man funding a conspiracy to undermine society.
> 
> Hence the picture. Orban used precisely the same insinuation, against the same man, highlighting Soros specifically as the evil individual Jew conspiring to ruin Hungary. Is this clear?



So because anti semitic  fascists and Helen Steel both have bones to pick with George Soros then HS must  be an anti semite? Is that your position?

Go back and re read your Exhibit A. There's no mention of a "conspiracy to undermine society" or "shady back room dealings". Those are your words not hers.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 20, 2020)

I'm saying that she's gotten so far onto the trans hate train that her mates spouting anti-semitic tropes no longer phases her and rather than challenge them she goes with "not just Soros". I was pretty clear throughout this thread I thought:



Rob Ray said:


> Helen saying the trans rights movement is funded by George Soros isn't just not having the same understanding of the world, it's fitting the world around a viewpoint that trans people are the enemy.





Rob Ray said:


> Ultimately a better question is the one underneath - is trans advocacy a well-funded conspiracy to silence and damage the rights of women? No. Clearly not. In fact all the money and media power is quite obviously on the other side of the debate. And yet it's common enough currency to assume this in Steel's circles that not only did she fail to shut down one of the most famous modern anti-Semitic tropes in the world, she went for a "well not just him" reply when asked about it.



Tbh though, if you're so entirely unwilling to accept that Helen's gone beyond "reasonable questions" that you're twisting around trying to make out that unevidenced blaming of George Soros for the world's ills isn't dodgy we've really not got much left to talk about. On which note I'm off to bed.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm saying that she's gotten so far onto the trans hate train that her mates spouting anti-semitic tropes no longer phases her and rather than challenge them she goes with "not just Soros". I was pretty clear throughout this thread I thought:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you have a link to the whole twitter thread, so we can see what she was replying to, please?  It's hard to understand what she meant without any context. On the face of it, she could be stating a simple truth thay Soros and other wealthy men donate to trans causes, but, equally, she could be using his name as an antisemitic cypher to further a conspiracy theory.  Though I've always had time for her, I wouldn't defend her in the latter circumstances.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I do suspect that some of the trans agenda has been fed by the security service as a divide and rule. After all they are stonewalls top employer. However, I am sure some of the push back has also been fed by the same forces. We are being played like fools...


it's the most successful thing the conservative party have ever done to divide people on the left.


----------



## chilango (Feb 20, 2020)

They've sure hit on winning formula...Remain cs Leave, Trans Vs RadFem etc. What's next in store for us?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm saying that she's gotten so far onto the trans hate train that her mates spouting anti-semitic tropes no longer phases her and rather than challenge them she goes with "not just Soros". I was pretty clear throughout this thread I thought:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not "unevidenced" is it? Soros stages interventions, quite openly, to push society towards what he sees as progressive and liberal values. Conspiraloons might posit that he's the only actor, and generally those on the right do,( because the other billionaire consensus manufacturers tend to reinforce their prejudices) but there's no evidence that HS thinks this.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> It's not "unevidenced" is it? Soros stages interventions, quite openly, to push society towards what he sees as progressive and liberal values. Conspiraloons might posit that he's the only actor, and generally those on the right do,( because the other billionaire consensus manufacturers tend to reinforce their prejudices) but there's no evidence that HS thinks this.



We can't discern much about her views on the subject without the context; need to see the posts she was replying to.


----------



## LDC (Feb 20, 2020)

TBH having seen the ways her and some others have been treated I'd get how she and others have ended up being pushed/dragged into the more bonkers end of stuff anyway. 

A really good friend of mine started off being pretty sensible (and IMO fair) with some of their criticisms and questions on this issue, but being banned from demos, anarchist spaces, people's houses, all whilst being told they're fascists (sometimes worse than), need killing, getting threatened, etc. by people they thought were friends and comrades is probably enough to make anyone go a bit mental or feel very desperate, and it for sure has pushed them into being angry and upset and taking positions that are more extreme than the ones they started with.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> TBH having seen the ways her and some others have been treated I'd get how she and others have ended up being pushed/dragged into the more bonkers end of stuff anyway.
> 
> A really good friend of mine started off being pretty sensible (and IMO fair) with some of their criticisms and questions on this issue, but being banned from demos, anarchist spaces, people's houses, all whilst being told they're fascists (sometimes worse than), need killing, getting threatened, etc. by people they thought were friends and comrades is probably enough to make anyone go a bit mental or feel very desperate, and it for sure has pushed them into being angry and upset and taking positions that are more extreme than the ones they started with.


It now seems that you are liable to get accused of being anti-Semitic as well. 

All this stuff is happening elsewhere. I went to a meeting organised by the Labour Party last night. A gay man was upset at how lesbian friends were being treated by trans extremists. A woman was upset because her trans sibling was getting flack from all over. A lot of people, while completely against discrimination, were not convinced by the arguments for self-Id, and, as they saw it, the infringement on hard-won women’s rights. 

This is a complex issue. It’s being treated simplistically. It won’t go away, so people need to talk, nicely, to each other. If they don’t the division will just get worse.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Is this book fair happening or what?




The Bookfair will take place on October 17th at a North London venue.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> TBH having seen the ways her and some others have been treated I'd get how she and others have ended up being pushed/dragged into the more bonkers end of stuff anyway.
> 
> A really good friend of mine started off being pretty sensible (and IMO fair) with some of their criticisms and questions on this issue, but being banned from demos, anarchist spaces, people's houses, all whilst being told they're fascists (sometimes worse than), need killing, getting threatened, etc. by people they thought were friends and comrades is probably enough to make anyone go a bit mental or feel very desperate, and it for sure has pushed them into being angry and upset and taking positions that are more extreme than the ones they started with.



yep, it's deffo other ( unnamed / unverifiable ) folk's fault when terfs go hardcore, poor old Glinners himself was just a mild sceptic a couple of years back, before he was hounded to (etc etc )


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> The Bookfair will take place on October 17th at a North London venue.


The Irish Centre?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> It's not "unevidenced" is it?



Helen said he was "funding the rapid spread of this ideology." When you put up a link to his foundation I specifically went to the trouble of checking through its donations list see if this was true, and* there is no evidence of donations having been made by George Soros to any UK trans advocacy organisation*. Until you provide some, it is an "unevidenced" accusation. 

I don't care if she thinks he's the only one or not (she doesn't, as she writes in the first line), his name is the specific one she mentions. Not Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett or any other liberal rich person, but the world's most famous target of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. 



Kevbad the Bad said:


> It now seems that you are liable to get accused of being anti-Semitic as well.



I specifically haven't accused her of being directly anti-semitic, what I've essentially accused her of is _glossing over and tacitly backing_ an unevidenced and blatantly anti-Semitic picking out of George Soros as a particular nemesis in a way that if it was done anywhere else, by anyone else, people would very definitely not be twisting and turning about to try and find a more flattering angle.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

Theory :

we are just internalizing mainstream politics. Neo-liberalism by design favours LGBT and race issues because they don't really get in the way of business.
Example :
When New Labour came into existence it discarded anti-war and working class values whilst giving the green light to idpol. This enabled them to increase war and deplete support for the working class whilst maintaining credibility.

This vein runs through all institutions including the universities... which is where most of these kids got the idea from.

In effect what we have is little neoliberals tearing up the movement with their unjustified authority and lack of respect.... and of course lust for power and status.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Theory :
> 
> we are just internalizing mainstream politics. Neo-liberalism by design favours LGBT and race issues because they don't really get in the way of business.
> 
> ...


When was Labour opposed to war?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

Or anarchist. It's usual zaphod drivel.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

Good point. I just assumed it was pre-new labour.  If it wasn't then ... I guess it was just the working class New Labour abandoned .

You get my point though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Good point. I just assumed it was pre-new labour.  If it wasn't then ... I guess it was just the working class New Labour abandoned .
> 
> You get my point though?


Oh they abandoned the working class long long ago, before Blair was even considered as a leadership candidate


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

Yes. During the onset of neo-liberalism ..... in the 80`s . 

Anyway was just a thought, and i was partly trying to point to the fact that there is probably a far more reasonable explanation than what the alt-right are serving up .


----------



## LDC (Feb 20, 2020)

Brilliant, here we are with some anarchists in 2020...

"Women being critical or concerned about some aspects of trans theory and attitudes? They're totally fascist and it's their own fault."
"Daesh attacking unarmed civilians in the UK? Well, it is a racist society, they can't be held completely responsible really."


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Brilliant, here we are with some anarchists in 2020...
> 
> "Women being critical or concerned about some aspects of trans theory and attitudes? They're totally fascist and it's their own fault."
> "Daesh attacking unarmed civilians in the UK? Well, it is a racist society, they can't be held completely responsible really."


The second bit has been there for a long long time now.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Or anarchist. It's usual zaphod drivel.



  .... you may have missed the bit where I said 



RTWL said:


> we are just internalizing mainstream politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

RTWL said:


> .... you may have missed the bit where I said


So on this sheeple model before new labour all parties were mad anarchists esp labour. As we just are just empty vessels that internalise what capital says. Why am i bothering with you again?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

Maybe I did not explain myself clearly.

Before Neo-liberalism there was support for the working classes from the left.

Over the past 30ish years neoliberalism has abandoned the working class but remained progressive via support for LGBT and race issues .

Within neo-liberal societies the Universities teach the students Idpol and keep their usual general disdain for working class/anti-war politics thusly producing academics with a filtered view of radical politics .

These people then cause havoc within anarchist stuff due to having unbalanced politics.

It was just a theory .



butchersapron said:


> Why am i bothering with you again?



I was just thinking the same thing about the pair of you TBH.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

I wish we had this pro-working class neo-liberalism of before 30 years ago now. Sounds great.


Or, the above is just drivel.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 20, 2020)

I’m off to teach the kids some idpol so hopefully in future they won’t vote anything more radical than libdem.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I wish we had this ` now. Sounds great.
> 
> 
> Or, the above is just drivel.



Last explanation.



RTWL said:


> Over the past 30ish years neoliberalism has abandoned the working class but remained progressive via support for LGBT and race issues .



If you read the words with your eyes you should find that I was not talking about a`pro-working class neo-liberalism of before 30 years ago` at all.

What i did say was


RTWL said:


> Before Neo-liberalism there was support for the working classes from the left.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Last explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> If you read the words with your eyes you should find that I was not talking about a`pro-working class neo-liberalism of before 30 years ago` pre-80`s ` at all.


This:



> Over the past 30ish years neoliberalism has abandoned the working class but remained progressive via support for LGBT and race issues .



is a sentence that says that before 30 years ago, neo-liberalism was progressive - economically, politically, socially and culturally. Now it's only the latter. It has abandoned it's progressive pro-working class economic and political agenda for some reason. 

As i said, drivel.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

No because it was not implemented until the 80`s . Neo-liberalism that is . I did not say it was either 

The working class were abandoned as it was implemented is what i am saying... in this theory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2020)

RTWL said:


> No because it was not implemented until the 80`s . Neo-liberalism that is . I did not say it was either


Stop drivelling, you'll drown yourself


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

Look Picky ... the only reason I was drivelling is because Butchers was misunderstanding my.... admittedly crap... theory


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

The idea that parties nominally in support of the w/c abandoned the economic and political content of their 'pro-w/c' programs whilst retaining a veneer of progressiveness via social liberalism is neither new nor controversial. It's accepted on the sensible left and has been for pretty much your entire 30 years. So it's not your theory nor is it wrong. What odd is the way that you imagine this happened (or rather, the lack of any mechanism or motivation)  - a conspiracy theory about students and professors and them both dictating - in step with political parties, rather than our own ongoing experience and reflection on that - what the sheeple think.

Again, why have i wasted the few bits of time i have on here atm to respond to this already banned clown?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Helen said he was "funding the rapid spread of this ideology." When you put up a link to his foundation I specifically went to the trouble of checking through its donations list see if this was true, and* there is no evidence of donations having been made by George Soros to any UK trans advocacy organisation*. Until you provide some, it is an "unevidenced" accusation.



You are aware that other people can also go to that link to check for themselves, right? It literally talks about their grants, the first article about their grant to the Marriage Equality Coalition Taiwan, the second about their grant to a film project in Eastern Kentucky, etc. Bold bluff dude!


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 20, 2020)

Read what I said more carefully Larry, I even put it in bold. I also went into specific details a few posts prior.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

butchersapron you wasted your own time,and mine, by not reading my post correctly..but

Thank you for your opinion. I would only further comment in saying you seem to have very a high opinion of university education and an ignorance to its filters.





__





						Internalization (sociology) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Read what I said more carefully Larry, I even put it in bold. I also went into specific details a few posts prior.



That part where you moved the goalposts to a specifically _UK_ trans advocacy organisation? Yes I noticed, could you please show me again where Helen claimed that Soros was funding trans advocacy organizations specifically in the _UK_?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 20, 2020)

How is it moving goalposts to address the situation in Britain, ie. where Helen and everyone else here lives? You think Soros is aiding the "rapid spread of trans ideology" in ways which Helen would notice by paying for an intern in Brazil? You reckon a donation to the Marriage Equality Coalition in Taiwan was what she was referring to do you?

Fucking come on this is just sad, it's not the end of the world as we know it to admit that Helen has fallen down a weird internet hole and is now part of some dodgy shitposting about trans people. Happens all the time and especially in situations where people get hit with the full force of the internet outrage machine (Nina Power springs to mind). The only odd thing about it is how desperate people seem to be to say nothing's awry.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That part where you moved the goalposts to a specifically _UK_ trans advocacy organisation? Yes I noticed, could you please show me again where Helen claimed that Soros was funding trans advocacy organizations specifically in the _UK_?



Beat me to it.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> How is it moving goalposts to address the situation in Britain, ie. where Helen and everyone else here lives? You think Soros is aiding the "rapid spread of trans ideology" in ways which Helen would notice by paying for an intern in Brazil? You reckon a donation to the Marriage Equality Coalition in Taiwan was what she was referring to do you? Fucking come on this is just sad.



No it isn't.  In the absence of any context you're willing to show us you've twisted the meaning of that tweet virtually beyond recognition.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 20, 2020)

Ugh, fucking whatever. Have it your way, George Soros "funding the rapid spread of this ideology" refers to Taiwanese marriage laws, the fact not a penny has been spent in the UK is irrelevant, no anti-Semitism implied, Helen's fully sensible about trans issues, nothing to see here. Utterly pathetic.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Rob Ray said:


> Ugh, fucking whatever. Have it your way, George Soros "funding the rapid spread of this ideology" refers to Taiwanese marriage laws, no anti-Semitism implied, Helen's fully sensible about trans issues, nothing to see here. Utterly pathetic.


What's the context of the tweet you're relying on?  What was she replying to?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Beat me to it.



Yeah I decided to just ignore it at first, as I mostly just wanted to congratulate him on the boldness of his bluff rather than really get involved in this whole thing again.



Red Sky said:


> No it isn't.  In the absence of any context you're willing to show us you've twisted the meaning of that tweet virtually beyond recognition.



Note how that quoted tweet starts with "Not just Soros, but yes including him." clearly indicating that it was not Helen who brought up Soros in specific in this conversation but she was responding to someone else bringing him up. How convenient for Rob Ray to have forgotten to include the context, given that his argument at this point comes down to nothing more than "but look, she brought up specifically Soros once!"


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

It would be so cool if that previous tweet was Rob Ray himself stating "Soros funds trans advocacy organizations" to which Helen's tweet would be a reasonable continuation (explaining that it's not _just_ Soros, that there are _many_ backers, etc). That would be the bluff of the century!


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> It would be so cool if that previous tweet was Rob Ray himself stating "Soros funds trans advocacy organizations" to which Helen's tweet would be a reasonable continuation (explaining that it's not _just_ Soros, that there are _many_ backers, etc). That would be the bluff of the century!



No doubt Rob Ray will soon quote the tweet to which she was replying, providing the context people here have asked to see.  I mean, he'd have no reason not to, would he?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

Athos said:


> No doubt Rob Ray will soon quote the tweet to which she was replying, providing the context people here have asked to see.  I mean, he'd have no reason not to, would he?



My money's on that tweet saying "Soros funds trans advocacy organizations" (or words to that effect). I don't think it'll actually be from Rob Ray himself though because I do think that, even in the already unlikely event that it was he himself to have made it, he'd still be smart enough to use a pseudonym. It would be so damn cool if I were wrong on that last part though. Well, actually my money'd be on Rob never showing us that tweet but that not in any way shape or form stopping him from continuing to make the same assertions, but you get my point.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> My money's on that tweet saying "Soros funds trans advocacy organizations" (or words to that effect). I don't think it'll actually be from Rob Ray himself though because I do think that, even in the already unlikely event that it was he himself to have made it, he'd still be smart enough to use a pseudonym. It would be so damn cool if I were wrong on that last part though. Well, actually my money'd be on Rob never showing us that tweet but that not in any way shape or form stopping him from continuing to make the same assertions, but you get my point.



Quite telling that he provided a screen shot of that quote, shown out of context.  Something that takes more effort than linking to it in the actual thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2020)




----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

It seems to in a discussion about this article ....









						The Open Society Foundations & the transgender movement
					

by Michael Biggs Michael Biggs is Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Oxford and Fellow of St Cross College. He researches social movements and collective protest. The transgender…



					4thwavenow.com


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

Surely the problem is the claim that trans rights is not a bottom up movement which has gained success due to the work of trans people themselves, changing attitudes towards gender nonconformity and sexuality as well as material underpinning factors, but instead it is a secretive top down movement funded by a clique of 'rich white men', and which is a front for a wider attempt to destroy women's rights and silence women's voices.  You don't need to include Soros to recognise that is an analysis heavily drawing on anti-semitic sentiment.

By the same token Soros has funded projects exclusively for lesbians and gay men as well as umbrella LGBT groups.  Were someone to claim that LGB gains were not a result of a bottom up movement and changing social/material conditions but instead a plot by several rich white men, including George Soros, to destroy heterosexuality then I doubt that there would be many on here defending it.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Surely the problem is the claim that trans rights is not a bottom up movement which has gained success due to the work of trans people themselves, changing attitudes towards gender nonconformity and sexuality as well as material underpinning factors, but instead it is a top down movement funded by a clique of 'rich white men', and which is a front for a wider attempt to destroy women's rights and silence women's voices.  You don't need to include Soros to recognise that is an analysis heavily drawing on anti-semitic sentiment.
> 
> By the same token Soros has funded projects exclusively for lesbians and gay men as well as umbrella LGBT groups.  Were someone to claim that LGB gains were not a result of a bottom up movement and changing social/material conditions but instead a plot by several rich white men, including George Soros, to destroy heterosexuality then I doubt that there would be many on here defending it.



I agree it's a ropey analysis (although elite gatekeeping does a lot to decide which grassroots social struggles get coverage and funding and which do not) but  not sure why that would be anti semitic?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 199267



Thanks to this thread I've discovered Twitter advanced search and unless I've cocked it up this is the only Tweet out of 29,000 where HS mentions Soros.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> I agree it's a ropey analysis (although elite gatekeeping does a lot to decide which grassroots social struggles get coverage and funding and which do not) but  not sure why that would be anti semitic?



Well it's conspiracy theory that views the world, and world events as being secretly controlled by shadowy elites, which is a cornerstone of anti-semitic ideology.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> I agree it's a ropey analysis (although elite gatekeeping does a lot to decide which grassroots social struggles get coverage and funding and which do not) but  not sure why that would be anti semitic?



Let alone grounds for an exclusion from a bookfair.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Well it's conspiracy theory that views the world, and world events as being secretly controlled by shadowy elites, which is a cornerstone of anti-semitic ideology.



Anti semitic conspiracy theories are a subset of conspiracy theories rather than conspiracy theories being a subset of anti semitic thought .


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Well it's conspiracy theory that views the world, and world events as being secretly controlled by shadowy elites, which is a cornerstone of anti-semitic ideology.



Having said that I've heard plenty of similar bollocks from some anarchos and associated types and I don't think it is a reason they should be banned from the bookfair.  But surely the point is not what Helen thinks, but whether her, or those she attends with, would attempt to provoke a confrontation or hand out transphobic literature again.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Well it's conspiracy theory that views the world, and world events as being secretly controlled by shadowy elites, which is a cornerstone of anti-semitic ideology.



... a bit of a stretch there


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Well it's conspiracy theory that views the world, and world events as being secretly controlled by shadowy elites, which is a cornerstone of anti-semitic ideology.



No it isn't. Since when are anarchists supposed to be oblivious to the existence of capitalism's recuperation of struggles?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Anti semitic conspiracy theories are a subset of conspiracy theories rather than conspiracy theories being a subset of anti semitic thought .



I'm not sure about that, I think they are indelibly entwined myself.


----------



## nyxx (Feb 20, 2020)

Helen’s written some absolutely batshit and vile stuff on her facebook page that finally tipped me over from thinking it was worth sitting down with her to have a talk about this stuff one day and into actually no fuck this she’s too far gone.

She deleted some of those posts quite soon afterwards. I believe there’s screenshots of them around but the original posts have gone...


----------



## RTWL (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I'm not sure about that, I think they are indelibly entwined myself.



Are you saying that anyone that is effected by paranoia is anti-Semitic


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Having said that I've heard plenty of similar bollocks from some anarchos and associated types and I don't think it is a reason they should be banned from the bookfair.  But surely the point is not what Helen thinks, but whether her, or those she attends with, would attempt to provoke a confrontation or hand out transphobic literature again.



By "provoke a confrontation" you mean whether she will sit on the ground whilst believing, and sometimes even saying, things the bookfair authorities would rather have her not, thereby "provoking" a "confrontation" with the bookfair MAT? Well I suppose that's up to the bookfair authorities and their MAT to answer.


----------



## nyxx (Feb 20, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Wow are we really rezzin this dead thread?



This is _nothing_. I’ve opened “new posts” on here which looked interesting and found myself reading a thread from ten years ago that got bumped a couple of days ago.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> I agree it's a ropey analysis (although elite gatekeeping does a lot to decide which grassroots social struggles get coverage and funding and which do not) but  not sure why that would be anti semitic?




Of course it's not. It's just a slur thrown at dissenting women to silence them.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2020)

Can we agree that Soros is a piece of shit? If so, maybe we can move on as to why he is a piece of shit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 20, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Thanks to this thread I've discovered Twitter advanced search and unless I've cocked it up this is the only Tweet out of 29,000 where HS mentions Soros.



There only needs to be one doesn't there? One tweet represents the ideas and belief/suggestions of a person at that moment for those reasons. People can whomever they are/were  arrive to believe and share thoughts/beliefs etc.

Side note. I do not know Rob Ray  personally but I do know who he is and some of the snide questioning of what he knows and how he knows is batshit frankly. On this thread, by some that I also know have no skin in the game, literally, geographically, professionally, motivation, activism and more.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Can we agree that Soros is a piece of shit? If so, maybe we can move on as to why he is a piece of shit.



I wouldn't disagree with that.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> One tweet represents the ideas and belief/suggestions of a person at that moment for those reasons.



What do you think that one tweet referring to Soros represents about her views (if only at that moment), then?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> No it isn't. Since when are anarchists supposed to be oblivious to the existence of capitalism's recuperation of struggles?



There is a big difference between acknowledging recuperation of struggle, which is what this is, with a claim that the actual struggle is controlled by elites with a secret global agenda.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

Surely there's a middle ground?  I disagree with her analysis, but I think it's a stretch to describe it as antisemitic.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> There only needs to be one doesn't there? One tweet represents the ideas and belief/suggestions of a person at that moment for those reasons. People can whomever they are/were  arrive to believe and share thoughts/beliefs etc.
> 
> Side note. I do not know Rob Ray  personally but I do know who he is and some of the snide questioning of what he knows and how he knows is batshit frankly. On this thread, by some that I also know have no skin in the game, literally, geographically, professionally, motivation, activism and more.



Is he the real deal then? Not like these plastic anarchists who have the temerity to be asking him questions?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> There is a big difference between acknowledging recuperation of struggle, which is what this is, with a claim that the actual struggle is controlled by elites with a secret global agenda.



Well, given that we can presume that she was responding to a tweet making an anti-semitic conspiracy claim about Soros, I don't think her answer was all that bad - you know, pointing out that it's not just Soros but many capitalist elites which recuperate struggles etc. All that stuff about "secret global agenda" seem to be your words and not hers. Besides, if the OSF were funding these groups "in secret" then they're doing a pretty bad job at it, you know, prominently posting about it on their website and all.

Just to be clear, I don't entirely agree with the analysis either, but this seems to be nothing more than a bad faith attempt at smearing someone. Though Rob or someone else is free to change my view by presenting the context for that tweet, we're still waiting...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 20, 2020)

Athos said:


> What do you think that one tweet referring to Soros represents about her views (if only at that moment), then?


Quite a lot from one tweet tbh. What it says:
That "transgenderism", what ever its exact origins (cant know for sure what murky swamp it all began in ) is not a grassroots movement but an ideology being spread by SOROS and other Rich Men purely in order to erode womens rights.
Its batshit


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well, given that we can presume that she was responding to a tweet making an anti-semitic conspiracy claim about Soros, I don't think her answer was all that bad - you know, pointing out that it's not just Soros but many capitalist elites which recuperate struggles etc. All that stuff about "secret global agenda" seem to be your words and not hers. Besides, if the OSF were funding these groups "in secret" then they're doing a pretty bad job at it, you know, prominently posting about it on their website and all.
> 
> Just to be clear, I don't entirely agree with the analysis either, but this seems to be nothing more than a bad faith attempt at smearing someone. Though Rob or someone else is free to change my view by presenting the context for that tweet, we're still waiting...



It's global because the money was given to groups over the world.  It's secretive because the money was claimed to be for LGBT rights but the real intent is to destroy women's rights and silence them.  And the other rich men she was talking about were presumably the other two mentioned in Biggs article which she tweeted, one of whom is actually a Jewish trans woman.


----------



## Athos (Feb 20, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Quite a lot from one tweet tbh. What it says:
> That "transgenderism", what ever its exact origins (cant know for sure what murky swamp it all began in ) is not a grassroots movement but an ideology being spread by SOROS and other Rich Men purely in order to erode womens rights.
> Its batshit



Quite apart from the fact that I was asking someone else...

That post doesn't refer to 'transgenderism'.  And it doesn't say that Soros (and other wealthy men) are the only backers; though it does make the point that financial backing from wealthy cis men means it's not a grassroots movement any more, which must be literally true - cis men like Soros aren't the grassroots of any trans movement. It doesn't say that the erosion of women's rights is those individuals' aim, but that it is the aim of a particular ideology (though we're can't be sure exactly what ideology she means, absent the post to which she's replying).

That's not to say I agree with her. But let's not misrepresent what she did actually say.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> It's global because the money was given to groups over the world.  It's secretive because the money was claimed to be for LGBT rights but the real intent is to destroy women's rights and silence them.  And the other rich men she was talking about were presumably the other two mentioned in Biggs article which she tweeted, one of whom is actually a Jewish trans woman.



Nobody said anything about intent though. When we say that the ruling class seeks to destroy nature we also don't mean they're in a secret conspiracy to pour capital into dirty industries deliberately so as to destroy nature and that their stated goal of a profit motive is just a front for their secret devious schemes.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

By chance I just came across this.  Stryker is the third one mentioned in Biggs article, who as far as I can tell isn't Jewish but some cranks seem to think he is.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 20, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Nobody said anything about intent though. When we say that the ruling class seeks to destroy nature we also don't mean they're in a secret conspiracy to pour capital into dirty industries deliberately so as to destroy nature and that their stated goal of a profit motive is just a front for their secret devious schemes.



"It seeks to erode" implies intent.  And if someone was claiming that the ruling class seeks to destroy nature I'd tell them they were talking  crap as well.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 20, 2020)

smokedout said:


> "It seeks to erode" implies intent.  And if someone was claiming that the ruling class seeks to destroy nature I'd tell them they were talking  crap as well.



You can tell them it's crap as much as you want, but until you have a better argument I'm holding to the view that as long as environmentally unsustainable production is more profitable than sustainable production then that's exactly what the ruling class will seek to do. You know, capitalist production being undertaken for profit and the ruling class being the class deciding where productive capital gets allocated.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 21, 2020)

It’s worth remembering that the way people use Twitter isn’t very clever. They re-post stuff from phones, ipads, pc’s etc without necessarily reading it all properly, skimming over bits, not reading all the subsequent comments etc. So it’s daft to pretend that they agree hook, line and sinker with everything they’ve retweeted. 

Nor should we read sinister motives into people deleting tweets. They might have changed their minds, or had offending parts drawn to their attention, or have seen interpretations of text which they hadn’t seen before. Or something else entirely. Just because you disagree with somebody it doesn’t make all their actions sinister.

If I was up before the beak I would hate to be faced with a jury composed of some of the people posting here on urban. Talk about rush to judgement!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If I was up before the beak I would hate to be faced with a jury composed of some of the people posting here on urban. Talk about rush to judgement!


name names


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> name names


Well you could probably start with me if you wanted.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s worth remembering that the way people use Twitter isn’t very clever. They re-post stuff from phones, ipads, pc’s etc without necessarily reading it all properly, skimming over bits, not reading all the subsequent comments etc. So it’s daft to pretend that they agree hook, line and sinker with everything they’ve retweeted.
> 
> Nor should we read sinister motives into people deleting tweets. They might have changed their minds, or had offending parts drawn to their attention, or have seen interpretations of text which they hadn’t seen before. Or something else entirely. Just because you disagree with somebody it doesn’t make all their actions sinister.
> 
> If I was up before the beak I would hate to be faced with a jury composed of some of the people posting here on urban. Talk about rush to judgement!



It's the millennial way. Helen Steel has bad opinions ergo she's a bad person therefore she's probably an anti semitic conspiraloon. Pitched at the correct gallery this will draw rapturous applause and cement my reputation as the guardian of all that is good and true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Well you could probably start with me if you wanted.


i find it hard to believe you could be in the dock while simultaneously being numbered among the jury


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i find it hard to believe you could be in the dock while simultaneously being numbered among the jury


It could be an administrative oversight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It could be an administrative oversight.


you've talked yourself out of a job in the court office


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> It's the millennial way. Helen Steel has bad opinions ergo she's a bad person therefore she's probably an anti semitic conspiraloon. Pitched at the correct gallery this will draw rapturous applause and cement my reputation as the guardian of all that is good and true.



Whilst it may give an indication of her thinking it's not that tweet that has led to controversy about Helen Steel is it?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Whilst it may give an indication of her thinking it's not that tweet that has led to controversy about Helen Steel is it?



No, it's a measure of the method of making an outcast from the tribe.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

I don't think questioning someone's ideology or political views is equivalent to banishment.  Whilst it may often socially manifest as something looking like a tribe, anarchism is a political movement, and not one that should apologise for potentially anti-semitic and absolutely transphobic conspiracy theories based on someone's past deeds or affiliations -  precisely because we aren't, or shouldn't be a tribe.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I don't think questioning someone's ideology or political views is equivalent to banishment.  Whilst it may often socially manifest as something looking like a tribe, anarchism is a political movement, and not one that should apologise for potentially anti-semitic and absolutely transphobic conspiracy theories based on someone's past deeds or affiliations -  precisely because we aren't, or shouldn't be a tribe.



I'm not sure if you're deliberately getting the wrong end of the stick.  I'm saying that in actuality U.K anarchism is operating like a tribe rather than a political movement.  HS has been declared anathema and now we can happily accuse her of anything we like no matter how flimsy the evidence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> I'm not sure if you're deliberately getting tge wrong end of the stick.  I'm saying that in actuality U.K anarchism is operating like a tribe rather than a political movement.  HS has been declared anathema and now we can happily accuse her of anything we like no matter how flimsy the evidence.


anarchists in this country never reach that sort of consensus on any matter.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> I'm not sure if you're deliberately getting tge wrong end of the stick.  I'm saying that in actuality U.K anarchism is operating like a tribe rather than a political movement.  HS has been declared anathema and now we can happily accuse her of anything we like no matter how flimsy the evidence.



I don't think that's true.  She is being accused of being transphobic, and on this thread of pushing a conspiratorial narrative which may have an anti semitic element (whether intentional or not).  I don't think those accusations are based on flimsy evidence but her deeds and words over the last couple of years.  And that's all she's being accused of and a lot of people, myself included, have really tried to give her the benefit of the doubt before getting to this point.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> anarchists in this country never reach that sort of consensus on any matter.



Liked but it's not actually true.  We achieved overwhelming consensus on one matter which was broken in about 2012 when someone from Sol Fed suggested we didn't go to the Wetherspoons after a demo because they were suspected of using workfare.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 21, 2020)

RTWL said:


> .... you may have missed the bit where I said



Be careful with Butchers. He has a hard on for proles with class consciousness but then has nothing but disdain when he meets them in the wilds; preferring instead to cosy up with the academic class.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 21, 2020)

Which isn’t a rare quality on the left tbh.


----------



## chilango (Feb 21, 2020)

This is all so fucking depressing.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> This is all so fucking depressing.



On the plus side the bookfair appears to be happening, Paddington Police station is squatted and there's a week of green anti-capitalist action planned for next week.  Whilst those of us from a certain generation may be tearing our hair out about all this, it seems the young folk are just getting on with things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> On the plus side the bookfair appears to be happening, Paddington Police station is squatted and there's a week of green anti-capitalist action planned for next week.  Whilst those of us from a certain generation may be tearing our hair out about all this, it seems the young folk are just getting on with things.


Those of us fortunate enough to have hair anyway


----------



## RTWL (Feb 21, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Be careful with Butchers. He has a hard on for proles with class consciousness but then has nothing but disdain when he meets them in the wilds; preferring instead to cosy up with the academic class.



He seems like an idiot/drunkard, riding on his past academic glory . The way he dismissed my point about filters in universities was a give away . Probably never been front line in his life.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> On the plus side the bookfair appears to be happening, Paddington Police station is squatted and there's a week of green anti-capitalist action planned for next week.  Whilst those of us from a certain generation may be tearing our hair out about all this, it seems the young folk are just getting on with things.



The Paddington station thing was a cute stunt but they don't seem have done much with it.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Kids today ... grumble, grumble.  They've got a week of events there next week building to a demo in the city on Friday, what were you hoping for, what did we do different/better?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

More specifically what are we doing that's different/better at the moment?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Kids today ... grumble, grumble.  They've got a week of events there next week building to a demo in the city on Friday, what were you hoping for, what did we do different/better?


 
There's been a call out to resist the eviction tomorrow I think.  Maybe they'll get a stay in the courts but I doubt it. 

I support what they're doing but wish they'd used the platform to say something a bit more political than  "We're not Extinction Rebellion".


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

RTWL said:


> He seems like an idiot/drunkard, riding on his past academic glory . The way he dismissed my point about filters in universities was a give away . Probably never been front line in his life.


I see you're not unhappy about your point being dismissed, you're unhappy about the way it was derided.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 21, 2020)

Well yes .... with ignorance .. the derision of the notion that society and universities condition people. It is an admiral and idealistic viewpoint but unfortunately I don`t have that much faith in people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Well yes .... with ignorance .. the derision of the notion that society and universities condition people. It is an admiral and idealistic viewpoint but unfortunately I don`t have that much faith in people.


It is not an admiral. The notion universities and societies condition people is surely commonplace. All social institutions condition, all filter, all have their idiosyncratic norms. It is such a facile point to make it forces one to look at you as a mere tyro, an aspiring dilettante


----------



## RTWL (Feb 21, 2020)

whatever m8

I've already regurgitated this theory on this thread enough, and that was only to aid the hard of thinking.  I've already made it perfectly clear 4 times that it is the effect of neo-liberalism on the values that people internalize in this society that has produced unbalanced politics that is disrupting anarchist stuff....and that I was only suggesting this to make the point there could be more tangible explanations than the one HS is accused of tweeting.  I'm not going to do it again Picky.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 21, 2020)

Athos said:


> That post doesn't refer to 'transgenderism'.



That's got to be the boldest bluff so far, literally putting the source (which does not contain the claimed content) right there in one's own post...


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> It's the millennial way. Helen Steel has bad opinions ergo she's a bad person therefore she's probably an anti semitic conspiraloon. Pitched at the correct gallery this will draw rapturous applause and cement my reputation as the guardian of all that is good and true.



How people are expecting to go from this to a successful social revolution is completely beyond me. And why aren't we being accused of being anti-semitic conspiraloons, many of us have in this very thread mentioned the name "Soros" in one of our posts responding to someone else specifically bringing him up, by the same standard all of us should be getting accused of this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

RTWL said:


> whatever m8
> 
> I've already regurgitated this theory on this thread enough, and that was only to aid the hard of thinking.  I've already made it perfectly clear 4 times that it is the effect of neo-liberalism on the values that people internalize in this society that has produced unbalanced politics that is disrupting anarchist stuff....and that I was only suggesting this to make the point there could be more tangible explanations than the one HS is accused of tweeting.  I'm not going to do it again Picky.


I agree you've vomited over this thread. Oh and you confuse assertion for substantiated argument.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> There's been a call out to resist the eviction tomorrow I think.  Maybe they'll get a stay in the courts but I doubt it.
> 
> I support what they're doing but wish they'd used the platform to say something a bit more political than  "We're not Extinction Rebellion".



I think "We're not Extinction Rebellion" is a pretty good position for a militant environmental group to start with.  Look I agree that young activists can sometimes be annoying, we were, and they are rarely politically perfect.  I despair of a lot of the ID politics stuff but its not all thats going on.  I really objected to the accusations of lifestylism aimed at a lot of the movement in the 90s, but looking back I can fully understand and agree with much of that criticism.  But that wasn't all that was going on either and the energy and achievements of that movement, whilst ultimately unsuccessful in over throwing capitalism, had value in the time and space in which they existed. That doesn't mean we shouldn't offer supportive criticism, or adhere to things which we don't believe or support, but I do think we need to try and look beyond internal splits and recognise that this is where we are, the radical left is moriband, the planet fucked, the far right are on the rise and capital is stronger than ever.  So we either spend the next few years squabbling about trans rights, or who should or shouldnt be invited to bookfairs, or we get behind the people putting time and energy into things and in that process then perhaps a way forward to end these damaging conflicts will start to present itself.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I think "We're not Extinction Rebellion" is a pretty good position for a militant environmental group to start with.  Look I agree that young activists can sometimes be annoying, we were, and they are rarely politically perfect.  I despair of a lot of the ID politics stuff but its not all thats going on.  I really objected to the accusations of lifestylism aimed at a lot of the movement in the 90s, but looking back I can fully understand and agree with much of that criticism.  But that wasn't all that was going on either and the energy and achievements of that movement, whilst ultimately unsuccessful in over throwing capitalism, had value in the time and space in which they existed. That doesn't mean we shouldn't offer supportive criticism, or adhere to things which we don't believe or support, but I do think we need to try and look beyond internal splits and recognise that this is where we are, the radical left is moriband, the planet fucked, the far right are on the rise and capital is stronger than ever.  So we either spend the next few years squabbling about trans rights, or who should or shouldnt be invited to bookfairs, or we get behind the people putting time and energy into things and in that process then perhaps a way forward to end these damaging conflicts will start to present itself.



I disagree, it just comes across as petulant and silly.  Even when I was 22 year old mohicanned tree protestor/hunt sab I found Class War's empty posturing  bit embarrassing for example.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Even when I was 22 year old mohicanned tree protestor/hunt sab I found Class War's empty posturing  bit embarrassing for example.



I suspect the feeling was mutual.  It didn't stop us getting out on the streets and doing stuff together though did it.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I suspect the feeling was mutual.  It didn't stop us getting out on the streets and doing stuff together though did it.



I doubt I was famous enough to embarass anyone!

There's a strong case to be made for anti capitalist militant environmental movement and I want GACF (worst name ever btw) to be making it. They don't need to mention XR at all.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> More specifically what are we doing that's different/better at the moment?



Well, today I haven't instituted my own private police force to expel from the bookfair anyone not exactly on my side of some "split" or something. Does that count?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> I doubt I was famous enough to embarass anyone!
> 
> There's a strong case to be made for anti capitalist militant environmental movement and I want GACF (worst name ever btw) to be making it. They don't need to mention XR at all.



Well tbf they hardly do.  They're twitter bio is "Climate struggle is class struggle", there is no obvious criticism of XR on their website and in fact they have tweeted in support of a couple of XR actions.  Obviously the press are going to focus on the distinction between them and XR, and I think it's important they make that distinction and not give the impression that this is going to be more lying in the road waiting to get arrested, but it doesn't seem something they are obsessively pushing.


----------



## Athos (Feb 21, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That's got to be the boldest bluff so far, literally putting the source (which does not contain the claimed content) right there in one's own post...



Brazen


----------



## chilango (Feb 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> This is all so fucking depressing.



...and I'll repeat this. Nothing in the last page has changed my mind on this. 

Ok, I'm having a bad day, but still. A better world _is_ possible, and yet...


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That's got to be the boldest bluff so far, literally putting the source (which does not contain the claimed content) right there in one's own post...



She talks about transgender ideology, as does the piece she linked to in that thread, so whilst it doesn't contain that exact word the criticism still stands.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I think "We're not Extinction Rebellion" is a pretty good position for a militant environmental group to start with.  Look I agree that young activists can sometimes be annoying, we were, and they are rarely politically perfect.  I despair of a lot of the ID politics stuff but its not all thats going on.



Are Green Anticap even into idpol?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Well tbf they hardly do.  They're twitter bio is "Climate struggle is class struggle", there is no obvious criticism of XR on their website and in fact they have tweeted in support of a couple of XR actions.  Obviously the press are going to focus on the distinction between them and XR, and I think it's important they make that fnord distinction and not give the impression that this is going to be more lying in the road waiting to get arrested, but it doesn't seem something they are obsessively pushing.



There was a bit of this sort of thing ...from GACF and AFED


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> She talks about transgender ideology, as does the piece she linked to in that thread, so whilst it doesn't contain that exact word the criticism still stands.



I did not see her link to anything in that tweet nor mention "transgender" at all.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I did not see her link to anything in that tweet nor mention "transgender" at all.



FFS you havent even bothered to read the twitter thread it came from have you.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> There was a bit of this sort of thing ...from GACF and AFED
> 
> 
> View attachment 199393



I don't disagree with the sentiment really.  And this kind of shit meme is the culture now, I don't get it, I don't like it much, but then I'm grumpy and middle aged why would I.  At least they aren't calling themselves a fucking donga tribe and juggling all over the place.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> FFS you havent even bothered to read the twitter thread it came from have you.



It's not up to me to "go out there" to find purported evidence for your claims. If you wanted to use the twitter thread as evidence you should've linked to it. So Helen appears to be arguing with someone promoting the ideology that biological sex is a choice and that sexism is because women choose to express a feminine gender role. What's your point here exactly? Seems like a wacky ideology to me too, no wonder she'd argue against it.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> It's not up to me to "go out there" to find purported evidence for your claims. If you wanted to use the twitter thread as evidence you should've linked to it. So Helen appears to be arguing with someone promoting the ideology that biological sex is a choice and that sexism is because women choose to express a feminine gender role. What's your point here exactly? Seems like a wacky ideology to me too, no wonder she'd argue against it.



This is so typical.  It transpires you haven't even been talking about the same thing as everyone else and instead of acknowledging this and revisting your position accordingly it's all well what about this other thing then eh eh.  Which is why I'm done with you, I don't believe you have any interest in constructive debate and I certainly don't believe you give a shit about the anarchist bookfair so thats it from me.


----------



## Athos (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Which is why I'm done with you...


What a surprise.


----------



## Athos (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Which is why I'm done with you...


What a surprise.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 21, 2020)

Athos said:


> What a surprise.



I have engaged in this debate at considerable length with many posters on here that disagree with me and will continue to do so.  I've also come to the conclusion that some people are disengenuous arseholes who aren't really interested in moving the debate forward and just want to find various different ways of sniping at trans people. You fall into the latter group by the way, which is why I don't bother with your shit anymore either.


----------



## Athos (Feb 21, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I have engaged in this debate at considerable length with many posters on here that disagree with me and will continue to do so.  I've also come to the conclusion that some people are disengenuous arseholes who aren't really interested in moving the debate forward and just want to find various different ways of sniping at trans people. You fall into the latter group by the way, which is why I don't bother with your shit anymore either.


What a surprise.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 22, 2020)

FFS! Are you not oversimplifying things smokedout .  And I know you are  probably sick to death of hearing it but there are shades of grey here .... myself ... i am concerned about post-modern over intellectualized politics negatively affecting anarchist stuff. And I am hazarding a guess that Athos is not a transphobe !


----------



## nyxx (Feb 22, 2020)

Fuck these trolls


----------



## smokedout (Feb 22, 2020)

Athos said:


> What a surprise.



You really think it don't you. That I don't engage with you because you are mr logic super brain who makes the killer points I'm just too scared to handle. Rather than the truth which is that I just think you're a dick. You fucking dick.


----------



## HerbertS (Feb 22, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Seems this is back...New organisers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Glad to see the bookfair back.


----------



## Athos (Feb 22, 2020)

smokedout said:


> You really think it don't you. That I don't engage with you because you are mr logic super brain who makes the killer points I'm just too scared to handle. Rather than the truth which is that I just think you're a dick. You fucking dick.



I don't think I'm Mr Logic Super Brain, no.

But I do know that, typically, the point you say you're ignoring me and/or resorting to abuse is when there's a point you can't rebut or I've pointed out one of your many lies.

But you keep pretending if it makes you happy, mate.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Be careful with Butchers. He has a hard on for proles with class consciousness but then has nothing but disdain when he meets them in the wilds; preferring instead to cosy up with the academic class.


But they're so rough and straight-talking. Like gods.


----------



## chilango (Feb 22, 2020)

RTWL said:


> post-modern over intellectualized politics



"Discussions" like this one certainly make that appealing


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 22, 2020)

This whole discussion is going nowhere. I expect everybody else has noticed this as well. It all comes down to this. One lot of people think the new trans ideology is a settled fact. Another lot don’t. (Plus a few other intermediate views as well, i’m sure). As i’ve said before, this issue is not unique to the anarchist movement, nor is it intrinsic to anarchism. 

The Bookfair will go ahead, probably. Some people or groups may not attend, which may or may not be noticed. Hopefully  there will not be any trouble related to all this. But the movement has been diminished and harmed. Personal relationships have been damaged and reputations tarnished.

None of this will get any better unless there is free and unfettered discussion, and that doesn’t seem likely at the moment.

Years ago there was, briefly, a magazine called ‘Black and Red Outlook’. If it came out now it would have to be called ‘Black and White Outlooks’. Sad or what?


----------



## Red Cat (Feb 22, 2020)

What if people were to think what does this argument stand for/ represent symbolically? It gets in the way of people working together because.....? Arguing only about the rational and logical politics side of things doesn't get very far does it? Why this, why now?

In my workplace right now, there's a fantasy that when the 'difficult person' leaves everything will be ok rather than looking at what the 'difficult person' represents for a team that is stuck and unable to work with eachother creatively, instead each person just getting on with their own thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> One lot of people think the new trans ideology is a settled fact. Another lot don’t. (Plus a few other intermediate views as well, i’m sure). As i’ve said before, this issue is not unique to the anarchist movement, nor is it intrinsic to anarchism.


don't suppose any trans ideology settled at all, being as it's such a new thing


----------



## RTWL (Feb 22, 2020)

EDIT /; Apologies... complete wrong end of stick.

It would be pretty insulting to a lot of people to say that this is all about transgender politics. It is about the way all this is managed, the false authority and exploitation of it and the lack of respect to established movers and shakers. The people preaching post-modern idpol I have found to be extremely destructive to the goal of a revolution ASAP.

I have seen false rape accusations . I have seen people removed from protest sites/squats for having dreads.  I have seen false transphobe accusations(on this very page.... which is a crime BTW). I have seen id-pol nutters target established anarchists (not HS) and shoot them down IMO to further their own status.  And most of all it excludes and demonizes the majority of the working class. BTW i am talking REAL LIFE . Not corporate controlled twitter and Facebook... or here.


----------



## Red Cat (Feb 22, 2020)

I wish you hadn't liked my post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

RTWL said:


> EDIT /; Apologies... complete wrong end of stick.
> 
> It would be pretty insulting to a lot of people to say that this is all about transgender politics. It is about the way all this is managed, the false authority and exploitation of it and the lack of respect to established movers and shakers. The people preaching post-modern idpol I have found to be extremely destructive to the goal of a revolution ASAP.
> 
> I have seen false rape accusations . I have seen people removed from protest sites/squats for having dreads.  I have seen false transphobe accusations(on this very page.... which is a crime BTW). I have seen id-pol nutters target established anarchists (not HS) and shoot them down IMO to further their own status.  And most of all it excludes and demonizes the majority of the working class. BTW i am talking REAL LIFE . Not corporate controlled twitter and Facebook... or here.


your own post excludes the majority of the working class, with your post-modern idpol and so on


----------



## RTWL (Feb 22, 2020)

... well there are a number of things at play here. The IDPOL stuff mainly effected the politics of university students and twitter junkies, for the working class I think the authoritarianism comes from a backlash against uncontrolled hedonism and the damaged caused by it within Anarchist circles. It is an understandable reaction to my generation lunching it out a bit.

And of course you do actually have genuine transphobes and abusive types, which is a massive problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

RTWL said:


> ... well there are a number of things at play here. The IDPOL stuff mainly effected the politics of university students and twitter junkies, for the working class I think the authoritarianism comes from a backlash against uncontrolled hedonism and the damaged caused by it within Anarchist circles. It is an understandable reaction to my generation lunching it out a bit.
> 
> And of course you do actually have genuine transphobes and abusive types, which is a massive problem.


perhaps you could shed some light on how 'the idpol stuff' mainly affected 'the politics of university students and twitter junkies' but not, it seems, the politics of academics or facebook users.

as for uncontrolled hedonism, it's sadly conspicuous by its absence in anarchist circles.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 22, 2020)

The 2020 Anarchist Bookfairs List
					

With the recent announcements of dates for Liverpool and the Anti-University, our list of anarchist and radical bookfairs across Britain and Ireland is getting pretty full of events – includi…




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## RTWL (Feb 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could shed some light on how 'the idpol stuff' mainly affected 'the politics of university students and twitter junkies' but not, it seems, the politics of academics or facebook users.
> 
> as for uncontrolled hedonism, it's sadly conspicuous by its absence in anarchist circles.



Sorry, my understanding is that a university student was an academic, but yes the whole of society has been effected by neo-liberalism, which id-pol does not conflict with, and therefore is more prominent within the common sympathy... which affects anarchist circles .

And the hedonism - it is sadly conspicuous because of the straight-edge vein, which was a working class reaction to .... well ... a little to much hedonism. I did notice straight-edge and id-pol co-habiting  :/


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Sorry, my understanding is that a university student was an academic, but yes the whole of society has been effected by neo-liberalism, which id-pol does not conflict with, and therefore is more prominent within the common sympathy... which affects anarchist circles .


my understanding is that pupils are not teachers. your understanding of classroom dynamics may vary.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 22, 2020)

Yes you are correct as usual. Academic papers that support neo-liberalism or are not counter to it will proliferate under the circumstances, so the academics teaching the students should be properly indoctrinated.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 22, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Yes you are correct as usual. Academic papers that support neo-liberalism or are not counter to it will proliferate under the circumstances, so the academics teaching the students should be properly indoctrinated.



I miss the good old days when we could just have a good laugh with them and that'd be it.


----------



## treelover (Feb 22, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Be careful with Butchers. He has a hard on for proles with class consciousness but then has nothing but disdain when he meets them in the wilds; preferring instead to cosy up with the academic class.



How do you know that? I wouldn't imagine him being like that.


----------



## HerbertS (Feb 22, 2020)

Personally i think its good the anarchist bookfair is back. The problems at the bookfair are problems of the movement generally and the wider left.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 27, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I miss the good old days when we could just have a good laugh with them and that'd be it.



Still laughing though... Turns out that Anne Fausto-Sterling, the Gender Studies professor whose paper Rhyddical quoted in his ill-advised charade pretending to be a science teacher[*] - has admitted to having made those claims in that paper as merely a joke. No wonder you need to hide yourself behind your MAT Rhyddical, you spineless little coward.

[*] Note in particular the overblown lust for power and authority, not merely arguing for his pseudo-scientific claims but pretending to be a teacher who is spoonfeeding a bunch of students who are expected to uncritically and blindly parrot his claims as a result or have his MAT unleashed upon them. Anarchist my ass.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 27, 2020)

It would also be useful if random newbie wankers who seem to have been 'attracted' to this thread, didn't try and misrepresent what people like Fausto-Sterling has to say on these things - in order then to basically have a pop at another poster like @Rhyddical (who seems at least to be trying to make a bookfair happen, even if I don't know him and I have no idea about some of his politics), but moreso - to basically just indulge in some anti-trans bigotry. I see Fausto-Sterling is now getting the pile-ons from those who used to try and use her to have a go at trans people (she's supportive of both intersex and trans people btw - including younger trans people trying to find there way). I expect Finn Mackay will be next for the same reasons.

Some who have seen/engaged in bits of this debate years ago before all the Glinners and Times/Spiked journo's turned up late to it have warned that trans people would only be first in the firing line. And sure enough, it's also sought to undermine intersex and other DSD lives (see treatment of Semenya recently again complete with racial undertones), it aggressively shouts down women and feminists who are allies to trans people, hardliners seek bathroom bills which experience has already shown just affects dyke/butch and trans women going to the loo rather than women at risk of being attacked by men, and now a moral panic is forming around drag being a danger to our kids (the 'gender critical' crowd were once lauding gay men and drag as a means to criticise trans people). Over ten years ago I remember someone to whom I was acquainted (lesbian rad separatist) withdrawing from a lot of this politic at the frustration of a vocal minority of straight rad fems basically going down some homophobic/lesbophobic avenues. Looks like we're here again but on a more public scale.

So as I said in my last post, what a load of selective-memory, two-faced, disingenuous shit some of this is.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 27, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Still laughing though... Turns out that Anne Fausto-Sterling, the Gender Studies professor whose paper Rhyddical quoted in his ill-advised charade pretending to be a science teacher[*] - has admitted to having made those claims in that paper as merely a joke. No wonder you need to hide yourself behind your MAT Rhyddical, you spineless little coward.
> 
> [*] Note in particular the overblown lust for power and authority, not merely arguing for his pseudo-scientific claims but pretending to be a teacher who is spoonfeeding a bunch of students who are expected to uncritically and blindly parrot his claims as a result or have his MAT unleashed upon them. Anarchist my ass.



'Turns out'.  She wrote 20 years ago that her paper was intended as a provocation and was tongue in cheek.  You don't seem very on top of things given your obvious interest in this subject.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> It would also be useful if random newbie wankers who seem to have been 'attracted' to this thread, didn't try and misrepresent what people like Fausto-Sterling has to say on these things - in order then to basically have a pop at another poster like @Rhyddical (who seems at least to be trying to make a bookfair happen, even if I don't know him and I have no idea about some of his politics), but moreso - to basically just indulge in some anti-trans bigotry. I see Fausto-Sterling is now getting the pile-ons from those who used to try and use her to have a go at trans people (she's supportive of both intersex and trans people btw - including younger trans people trying to find there way). I expect Finn Mackay will be next for the same reasons.
> 
> Some who have seen/engaged in bits of this debate years ago before all the Glinners and Times/Spiked journo's turned up late to it have warned that trans people would only be first in the firing line. And sure enough, it's also sought to undermine intersex and other DSD lives (see treatment of Semenya recently again complete with racial undertones), it aggressively shouts down women and feminists who are allies to trans people, hardliners seek bathroom bills which experience has already shown just affects dyke/butch and trans women going to the loo rather than women at risk of being attacked by men, and now a moral panic is forming around drag being a danger to our kids (the 'gender critical' crowd were once lauding gay men and drag as a means to criticise trans people). Over ten years ago I remember someone to whom I was acquainted (lesbian rad separatist) withdrawing from a lot of this politic at the frustration of a vocal minority of straight rad fems basically going down some homophobic/lesbophobic avenues. Looks like we're here again but on a more public scale.
> 
> So as I said in my last post, what a load of selective-memory, two-faced, disingenuous shit some of this is.



I've been engaging with crackpots and charlatans like Rhydiccal for much longer than this thread, it's been a hobby of mine for a long time, although mostly focused on crackpots in physics rather than biology. Your response and specifically the number of likes it got - given that it is just a contentless whine - clearly shows the deplorable state of that which pretends to be an anarchist movement in the UK. By the way, I'm still waiting for that solid evidence of extraterrestrial life that we were promised - or is this just going to get me another contentless whine that demanding evidence for the claim of extraterrestrial life is supposedly "anti-trans bigotry" or whatever random excuse for charlatanism you choose to employ this time? That people here are trying to hide behind transgender people to deflect the flak their charlatanism was obviously going to receive is appalling, it's one level of cowardice to hide behind some goons when one's crackpot claims get challenged, it's quite another to randomly push some transgender people into the firing line to hide behind.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

smokedout said:


> 'Turns out'.  She wrote 20 years ago that her paper was intended as a provocation and was tongue in cheek.  You don't seem very on top of things given your obvious interest in this subject.



Well maybe you should tell Rhydiccal that then, he's the one who seriously went along with it. But yes, thank you for pointing out that my intellectual standards are still sufficiently trustworthy, given that I rejected the claim even before I knew it was a joke and without having an expertise in biology.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Why is it that I, a random person on the internet who demands proof of extraterrestrial life on a thread about the anarchist bookfair, gets so few likes compared to a long-standing and much loved poster?

could it be me?

Or is it just that anarchists can’t handle the truth? Yes, yes, it must be that.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Why is it that I, a random person on the internet who demands proof of extraterrestrial life on a thread about the anarchist bookfair, gets so few likes compared to a long-standing and much loved poster?
> 
> could it be me?
> 
> Or is it just that anarchists can’t handle the truth? Yes, yes, it must be that.



Oh I see, it's a popularity contest. Sorry, i mistakenly took it for agreement with the arguments expressed therein. Silly mistake to make, my bad.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Oh I see, it's a popularity contest. Sorry, i mistakenly took it for agreement with the arguments expressed therein. Silly mistake to make, my bad.



There are a number of factors at play. Stick around and be less of a dickhead and you might understand them eventually.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There are a number of factors at play. Stick around and be less of a dickhead and you might understand them eventually.



No thanks, I'm not interested in whatever arbitrary social norms you demand me to abide by (the "be less of a dickhead" part) or whatever social credit system that you've set up to measure it (the "factors at play" in likes). Indeed, unless these likes express agreement with a particular argument I couldn't care less about them. You've made clear that they don't, hence I'll just ignore them.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

By the way, it could be argued that really being a dickhead is making a bunch of crackpot claims and then, when the obviously coming flak hits, to try to deflect it onto random transgender people. But then of course "being a dickhead" is a subjective notion, hence why you don't see me complaining about someone "being a dickhead" even though I think at least some people here are.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Thanks for that, Mr Logic.


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> No thanks, I'm not interested in whatever arbitrary social norms you demand me to abide by (the "be less of a dickhead" part) or whatever social credit system that you've set up to measure it (the "factors at play" in likes). Indeed, unless these likes express agreement with a particular argument I couldn't care less about them. You've made clear that they don't, hence I'll just ignore them.



Why are you here then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> By the way, it could be argued that really being a dickhead is making a bunch of crackpot claims and then, when the obviously coming flak hits, to try to deflect it onto random transgender people. But then of course "being a dickhead" is a subjective notion, hence why you don't see me complaining about someone "being a dickhead" even though I think at least some people here are.


Complaining without complaining


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> Why are you here then?



You can seriously not imagine any other reason to be here other than to gather likes? Personally I got on here because I read on facebook (I think) someone saying that the new bookfair organizers were abusing their blocking/deleting mechanisms on social media to effectively falsify debate. Given that this mechanism wasn't available on this place, or at least not directly controlled by said organizers, I decided to test here. Sure enough, after my first post I noticed that my posts suddenly required moderator approval (I can only assume that Rhydiccal had reported me) which was removed again shortly later. Then one thing just kind of led to another.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Complaining without complaining



Oh I'm complaining alright, just not with random ad homs about people "being a dickhead" or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Oh I'm complaining alright, just not with random ad homs about people "being a dickhead" or something.


Are you such a whinger irl?


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> You can seriously not imagine any other reason to be here other than to gather likes?



Gathering likes? or expressing gestures of solidarity within a community? 

If you're not interested in our "social norms" then why join us?

There's plenty of other places for individualised and anonymous expression. It's a little different here with a long-standing commitment to online (and offline) community and the values that come with that.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> Gathering likes? or expressing gestures of solidarity within a community?



Whatever you want to call it. Personally I'm using the mechanism to indicate agreement with a particular argument or point, but I don't see why you or anyone else couldn't use it for whatever other reason you want. Of course, that's using the heinous assumptions of individualized expression rather than social conformity.



> If you're not interested in our "social norms" then why join us?



You seriously can't imagine any other reason to register and participate on a forum thread than the desire to be taught a particular social conformity by the people who happened to already have been on that forum?



> There's plenty of other places for individualised and anonymous expression.



I wasn't aware of places one could argue with the new organizers of the bookfair such that they didn't directly control the blocking & deletion mechanism. Clearly, if such a place were available and known to me (one still isn't, you haven't actually pointed at one) then it would have been preferable if it indeed also allowed individualized expression.



> It's a little different here with a long-standing commitment to online (and offline) community and the values that come with that.



When we were teenagers a friend of mine was with the Jehovah's witnesses for a while, and one time I went along to one of their meetings to check it out. There was this guy delivering a lecture about how General Relativity proved that God exists using the usual crackpot stuff. When I pointed this out after the lecture to my friend and a couple of people I was surprised to find out that they defended it on the grounds that it gave them some sort of community feeling. Serious question though: Is responsibility one of those community values? Because it seems, to me, that going around making crackpot claims while hiding behind transgender people could be considered highly irresponsible. You know, for the flak it will obviously generate.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I don't see why you or anyone else couldn't use it for whatever other reason you want.



How generous of you.


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Whatever you want to call it. Personally I'm using the mechanism to indicate agreement with a particular argument or point, but I don't see why you or anyone else couldn't use it for whatever other reason you want. Of course, that's using the heinous assumptions of individualized expression rather than social conformity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you behave down the pub (or equivalent social situation)?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> How do you behave down the pub (or equivalent social situation)?



However I want. What about you?


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> You can seriously not imagine any other reason to be here other than to gather likes? Personally I got on here because I read on facebook (I think) someone saying that the new bookfair organizers were abusing their blocking/deleting mechanisms on social media to effectively falsify debate. Given that this mechanism wasn't available on this place, or at least not directly controlled by said organizers, I decided to test here. Sure enough, after my first post I noticed that my posts suddenly required moderator approval (I can only assume that Rhydiccal had reported me) which was removed again shortly later. Then one thing just kind of led to another.


Any new member whose first posts include links will be held in a moderation queue for the blazingly obvious reason that it's to stop spammers. If your first post had contained no links, it would have appeared immediately. Posts can also be moderated if their IP matches a banned poster or is on a net-wide blacklisted IP address.

Once the post is looked at - and found not to contain dodgy links or break the rules - it's published. If we didn't have this system in place, the place would be swamped with spam. Any third party trying to influence us as to what gets legally published here would be told to GTFO in no uncertain terms.

I trust this fully addresses your (misplaced) concerns.


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> However I want. What about you?



I try not to be a dick.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Any new member whose first posts include links will be held in a moderation queue for the blazingly obvious reason that it's to stop spammers. If your first post had contained no links, it would have appeared immediately. Posts can also be moderated if their IP matches a banned poster or is on a net-wide blacklisted IP address.
> 
> Once the post is looked at - and found not to contain dodgy links or break the rules - it's published. If we didn't have this system in place, the place would be swamped with spam. Any third party trying to influence us as to what gets legally published here would be told to GTFO in no uncertain terms.
> 
> I trust this fully addresses your (misplaced) concerns.



It does.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> I try not to be a dick.



Well look at that, you behave how you want to and I behave how I want to, I don't see the problem. And you don't see me telling you to behave the way I behave, nor telling you the opposite, do you?


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well look at that, you behave how you want to and I behave how I want to, I don't see the problem. And you don't see me telling you to behave the way I behave, nor telling you the opposite, do you?



No.

I don't just behave how I want to. I consider the impact and consequences of my behaviour on others.

Whilst I don't always succeed I recognise and acknowledge a need to act socially (bringing us back to the social norms on here - e.g." likes"  - that you contemptuously dismissed up thread).


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well look at that, you behave how you want to and I behave how I want to, I don't see the problem. And you don't see me telling you to behave the way I behave, nor telling you the opposite, do you?


What nihilist infected Stirnerism is this? We’re social animals. If we behave like sensory-tourists we’d pretty soon find we have no community to misbehave towards.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 28, 2020)




----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> No.
> 
> I don't just behave how I want to. I consider the impact and consequences of my behaviour on others.



That is trivially true, everyone considers the impact and consequences of their behaviour on others. For example I write in English on this forum, even though it is not my mother tongue, exactly because I have considered the impact and consequences it would have on others here if I were to do otherwise.



> Whilst I don't always succeed I recognise and acknowledge a need to act socially (bring us back to the social norms on here - e.g." likes"  - that you contemptuously dismissed up thread).



Why does it bother you so much that - oh the horror - a person might exist who doesn't fall all over themselves to conform to, or even have interest in, your particular behavioural norms? You don't see me whining that you "contemptuously dismissed" my proposal for the "likes" mechanism - ie as an indicator of agreement with arguments or points made rather than a social credit system. I simply inform people of the admittedly non-conforming - again, the horror - fashion in which I will continue using the mechanism and let you do your thing with it.


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

It bothers me when posters, such as yourself on this thread - but you are not special, you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, in this regard. There's a sprinkling of similar posters across the boards - pontificate loudly and pointlessly more concerned with listening to their own voices in s dull debate club style than actually engaging with the people in the discussion.

To go back to the pub. You're sounding like the bloke propped up on the bar on his own, loudly sharing his opinions whilst everybody avoids making eye contact with him and sits in uncomfortable silence hoping he'll finish up and go home.

That's what bothers me.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> What nihilist infected Stirnerism is this? We’re social animals. If we behave like sensory-tourists we’d pretty soon find we have no community to misbehave towards.



Well how lucky for this "nihilist infected Stirnerite" to have stumbled, through all of space and time, on exactly the right internet forum that had the true answer to harmonious society (apparently some sort of multi-factor social credit system). I'm reminded of the words of another "nihilist infected Stirnerite" but I'm not sure why we're even discussing this in the first place. You lot are basically just whining that you're not being fawned over as guru's.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well how lucky for this "nihilist infected Stirnerite" to have stumbled, through all of space and time, on exactly the right internet forum that had the true answer to harmonious society (apparently some sort of multi-factor social credit system). I'm reminded of the words of another "nihilist infected Stirnerite" but I'm not sure why we're even discussing this in the first place. You lot are basically just whining that you're not being fawned over as guru's.


I _am_ being fawned over as a guru. It’s embarrassing. I’m not the messiah; I’m a very naughty boy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well how lucky for this "nihilist infected Stirnerite" to have stumbled, through all of space and time, on exactly the right internet forum that had the true answer to harmonious society (apparently some sort of multi-factor social credit system). I'm reminded of the words of another "nihilist infected Stirnerite" but I'm not sure why we're even discussing this in the first place. You lot are basically just whining that you're not being fawned over as guru's.


gurus. i'm not whining. i don't think your whining claim really holds water. and believe you me the like system is not 'some sort of multi-factor social credit system'. and if your ideas were in any wise better, then we'd follow the auld acf motto of the leadership of ideas and adopt yours.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I _am_ being fawned over as a guru. It’s embarrassing. I’m not the messiah; I’m a very naughty boy.


does this end up with you handing someone some cash for caning?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> It bothers me when posters, such as yourself on this thread - but you are not special, you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, in this regard. There's a sprinkling of similar posters across the boards - pontificate loudly and pointlessly more concerned with listening to their own voices in s dull debate club style than actually engaging with the people in the discussion.
> 
> To go back to the pub. You're sounding like the bloke propped up on the bar on his own, loudly sharing his opinions whilst everybody avoids making eye contact with him and sits in uncomfortable silence hoping he'll finish up and go home.
> 
> That's what bothers me.



Oh I didn't know you used a text-to-speech device - complaining about my posts being too _loud_ or _sounding_ a particular way - but judging from the problem statement you might try lowering the volume on your device, using a different voice preset, or just use this forum's ignore function if that fails.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> does this end up with you handing someone some cash for caning?


No. I cane all my cash personally.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 28, 2020)

Anarchism isn't about people 'liking' what you say or ideas being 'popular'


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

I’ve completely lost track of this thread. Can we not just go back to calling each other terfs and so on?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> gurus. i'm not whining. i don't think your whining claim really holds water



An attempt to get a proposition accepted not based on reasoned argument but on appeal to emotion - community feeling or whatever. It falls under whining.



> and believe you me the like system is not 'some sort of multi-factor social credit system'



Well discuss it with Fozzie Bear who said it was multi-factor, at least one of the factors being adherence to some particularized social norm.



> and if your ideas were in any wise better, then we'd follow the auld acf motto of the leadership of ideas and adopt yours.



Not sure what ideas of mine you're talking about, but if it's the notion that one shouldn't go around making shit up whilst hiding behind transgender people then yeah, I do think that's not such a bad notion. I never got an answer whether responsibility was one of these supposed community values.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> An attempt to get a proposition accepted not based on reasoned argument but on appeal to emotion - community feeling or whatever. It falls under whining.


no it doesn't, whining is the uttering of a low somewhat shrill cry or sound, or of a complaint in a low querulous tone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I never got an answer whether responsibility was one of these supposed community values.


take it up with someone you'd discussed it with before.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

I would like it on the record that I did not use the term "multi-factor social credit system".


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no it doesn't, whining is the uttering of a low somewhat shrill cry or sound, or of a complaint in a low querulous tone.



Oh yes, I was using whining for the category of arguments that, when a proposition is rejected for failing to meet the standard, rather than goes to meet the standard starts "whining" for the standards to be lowered instead.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Also I guess if U75 is the best place in the world to argue pointlessly about the London Anarchist Bookfair then, I suppose, for all its faults, that is to its credit.

I'm hoping that we can inveigle Athos into all this so that he can cross-examine Mr Science And Logic in his inimicable and inimitable style. Then we can all put the thread on ignore and let them get on with The Debate Of Truth.

_I don't give a fuck I just barge in the gaff and tell peope outright that they are wrong about General Relativity. They can't handle the truth. I have no mates._


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I would like it on the record that I did not use the term "multi-factor social credit system".



That already was on the record.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Oh yes, I was using whining for the category of arguments that, when a proposition is rejected for failing to meet the standard, rather than goes to meet the standard starts "whining" for the standards to be lowered instead.


i find that hard to believe being as we have no standards round here


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Spoiler: Billy Bleach



.  
Interfering pub bore *Billy Bleach* knows the answer to everything, and he can't resist giving others the benefit of his wisdom.
Subjects on which Billy is an expert include:


pub quiz machines
choosing lottery numbers
getting the right change
fitness training
musical taste
He also has plenty of unwelcome advice to give on relationships and the subtle differences between the sexes.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i find that hard to believe being as we have no standards round here



I meant my own.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> Spoiler: Billy Bleach
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, you couldn't resist giving me unwelcome advice on relationships (the "social norm" thing) and expressed bewilderment at the idea of someone being here for another reason than to have a chance to get such unsolicited advice from you. Interesting how you lump in easily solvable questions such as choosing lottery numbers (it's random, it has the same negative expected value no matter what strategy you choose) with arbitrary subjective questions such as musical taste or relationships/social norms.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I meant my own.


being as you've decided to remain here your claims of personal standards are laughable


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

Is this what it's like at an Anarchist bookfair?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Is this what it's like at an Anarchist bookfair?


by this time of day on the day of the bookfair the bookfair _cognescenti_ are all in the pub


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Is this what it's like at an Anarchist bookfair?



If you pick the wrong meeting. Yeah


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> by this time of day on the day of the bookfair the bookfair _cognescenti_ are all in the pub



Pontificating loudly to all and
sundry...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I would like it on the record that I did not use the term "multi-factor social credit system".


he's trying to harmonise us


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> Pontificating loudly to all and
> sundry...


and waiting for news of excitement from the bookfair


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Yes, you couldn't resist giving me unwelcome advice on relationships (the "social norm" thing) and expressed bewilderment at the idea of someone being here for another reason than to have a chance to get such unsolicited advice from you. Interesting how you lump in easily solvable questions such as choosing lottery numbers (it's random, it has the same negative expected value no matter what strategy you choose) with arbitrary subjective questions such as musical taste or relationships/social norms.




"Unwelcome" and "unsolicited" leap out at me from that.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> being as you've decided to remain here your claims of personal standards are laughable



Non-sequitur much?


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> and waiting for news of excitement from the bookfair



or trying to spot other Urbs before getting too drunk on (my) their own and heading home broke ;(


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Is this what it's like at an Anarchist bookfair?


The last one I went to there was a bloke walking everywhere backwards. That was quite fun.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> "Unwelcome" and "unsolicited" leap out at me from that.



I did not solicit your advice on social norms and clearly showed it to be unwelcome when offered anyway, I don't see the problem with my statement.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> If you pick the right meeting. Yeah



cfu


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I did not solicit your advice on social norms and clearly showed it to be unwelcome when offered anyway.


are you this much of a prig off the boards?


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I did not solicit your advice on social norms and clearly showed it to be unwelcome when offered anyway, I don't see the problem with my statement.



Check your Chardonnay, I think there's a black fly in it...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> or trying to spot other Urbs before getting too drunk on (my) their own and heading home broke ;(


someone i used to know spent a fuck ton of money at the bookfair when it was still at conway hall before going off to get hammered and losing all his stuff


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)




----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


>



Beat me to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Beat me to it.


yes he did


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

no he didn't

boom tish


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yes he did


No, he didn't.
Bastard! two sheds


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Is this what it's like at an Anarchist bookfair?


I can only tell you about past ones. My team is non invited to future ones due to other people’s interpretation of what our views are.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> are you this much of a prig off the boards?



I suppose. I guess I mostly just have no patience for silly games like complaining about "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" advice on relationships whilst giving me unsolicited and unwelcome advice on relationships and then complaining that the words "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" are used in pointing that out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I suppose. I guess I mostly just have no patience for silly games like complaining about "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" advice on relationships whilst giving me unsolicited and unwelcome advice on relationships and then complaining that the words "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" are used in pointing that out.


i have no patience with people who continually reference their arguments with other people in their dealings with me


----------



## killer b (Feb 28, 2020)

is this some sort of alternate reality urban or something? who are all these strange people? 

anything interesting going on, or is it just the usual?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> is this some sort of alternate reality urban or something? who are all these strange people?
> 
> anything interesting going on, or is it just the usual?


yes


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> is this some sort of alternate reality urban or something? who are all these strange people?
> 
> anything interesting going on, or is it just the usual?



Just the usual.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> is this some sort of alternate reality urban or something? who are all these strange people?
> 
> anything interesting going on, or is it just the usual?



Did you mean alternative there, or one which keeps switching in and out of reality? Either would do tbf.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i have no patience with people who continually reference their arguments with other people in their dealings with me



I know this is going to sound like a crazy idea, but bear with me for a moment: Have you tried not referencing their arguments with other people in your dealings with them? Anyway your trolling is pretty subpar to be honest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I know this is going to sound like a crazy idea, but bear with me for a moment: Have you tried not referencing their arguments with other people in your dealings with them? Anyway your trolling is pretty subpar to be honest.


i haven't used the words "unsolicited" or "unwelcome" in any exchange with you and it's a lie for you to suggest i have.

but do you see how you have one rule for yourself and quite another for everyone else?


Larry Noppius said:


> Well discuss it with Fozzie Bear who said it was multi-factor, at least one of the factors being adherence to some particularized social norm.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I can only tell you about past ones. My team is non invited to future ones due to other people’s interpretation of what our views are.



What the hell did you get disinvited for?


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> What the hell did you get disinvited for?


I’m a member of ACG, who are, apparently,  “terfs who support Helen Steel”.  This Judgement is non negotiable and actual statements or positions are irrelevant.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> do you see how you have one rule for yourself and quite another for everyone else?



#1


chilango said:


> "Unwelcome" and "unsolicited" leap out at me from that.


#2


Larry Noppius said:


> I did not solicit your advice on social norms and clearly showed it to be unwelcome when offered anyway, I don't see the problem with my statement.


#3


Pickman's model said:


> are you this much of a prig off the boards?


#4


Larry Noppius said:


> I suppose. I guess I mostly just have no patience for silly games like complaining about "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" advice on relationships whilst giving me unsolicited and unwelcome advice on relationships and then complaining that the words "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" are used in pointing that out.


#5


Pickman's model said:


> i have no patience with people who continually reference their arguments with other people in their dealings with me



You claim (#5) to have no patience with people who continually reference their arguments with other people in their dealings with you. The reference to said argument between myself and chilango (#1 and #2) was introduced in your dealings with me by #3. It hence seems to stand to reason that, if you have no patience for such arguments to be referenced in your dealings with people you could, you know, not reference them. As for having one rule for myself and another for everyone else, you are free to substantiate that claim. If that remark is about my claim that your trolling is subpar, it's because your complaint in #5 is only one "link" backwards to #3 which should've showed you the obvious solution to the problem you expressed having in #5. If you want to troll properly you have to have many links backwards so people have forgotten by then who it was who brought up what.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> You claim (#5) to have no patience with people who continually reference their arguments with other people in their dealings with you. The reference to said argument between myself and chilango (#1 and #2) was introduced in your dealings with me by #3. It hence seems to stand to reason that, if you have no patience for such arguments to be referenced in your dealings with people you could, you know, not reference them. As for having one rule for myself and another for everyone else, you are free to substantiate that claim. If that remark is about my claim that your trolling is subpar, it's because your complaint in #5 is only one "link" backwards to #3 which should've showed you the obvious solution to the problem you expressed having in #5. If you want to troll properly you have to have many links backwards so people have forgotten by then who it was who brought up what.


i haven't referred to chilango's argument with you.

i quoted your post, which is brimful of priggery, as an example of priggery. if i'd wanted to reference chilango's argument, i would have quoted chilango. it stands to reason, doesn't it. so, so much of your post is useless verbiage based on premises founded on sand.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m a member of ACG, who are, apparently,  “terfs who support Helen Steel”.  This Judgement is non negotiable and actual statements or positions are irrelevant.



That has not been my experience of ACG.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m a member of ACG, who are, apparently,  “terfs who support Helen Steel”.  This Judgement is non negotiable and actual statements or positions are irrelevant.


i thought you agreed with the statement Serge Forward posted upthread, which doesn't seem of a piece with this 'terfs who support helen steel' for me


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i haven't used the words "unsolicited" or "unwelcome" in any exchange with you and it's a lie for you to suggest i have.



Have you completely lost the plot here? I never claimed you used the words "unsolicited" or "unwelcome" in any exchange with me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Have you completely lost the plot here? I never claimed you used the words "unsolicited" or "unwelcome" in any exchange with me.


when you reply to someone like this


Larry Noppius said:


> I suppose. I guess I mostly just have no patience for silly games like complaining about "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" advice on relationships whilst giving me unsolicited and unwelcome advice on relationships and then complaining that the words "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" are used in pointing that out.


you give rather another impression with your use of quote marks


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That has not been my experience of ACG.


It’s not reality. Reality is irrelevant.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> when you reply to someone like this
> you give rather another impression with your use of quote marks



Only to the stupid and the disingenuous, for details I'm happy to refer you back a couple of posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Only to the stupid and the disingenuous, for details I'm happy to refer you back a couple of posts.


referring me back to the drivel i dealt with in my 1428 - a post you've ignored

no surprise there


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m a member of ACG, who are, apparently,  “terfs who support Helen Steel”.  This Judgement is non negotiable and actual statements or positions are irrelevant.



And you're not even being a dick to the bookfair authorities. See, I knew that whole "don't be a dickhead" thing was just an excuse.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought you agreed with the statement Serge Forward posted upthread, which doesn't seem of a piece with this 'terfs who support helen steel' for me


I do. And you’re right, it isn’t. But that’s not the perception that seems to be doing the rounds.

We’re in Kafka territory.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> referring me back to the drivel i dealt with in my 1428 - a post you've understandably ignored
> 
> no surprise there



Look Pickman, if you don't want someone to reference their argument with someone else in their dealings with you then don't ask them about it, that should be obvious.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> And you're not even being a dick to the bookfair authorities. See, I knew that whole "don't be a dickhead" thing was just an excuse.


I think there are several layers of discussion going on. As usual with this debate. For the avoidance of doubt, I count Fozzie Bear and chilango as decent folks and comrades.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

I thought I’d repost a link to the ACG statement, to which I subscribe:









						London Anarchist bookfair 2020
					

The vitriol in this divide is really alienating to those of us on the periphery of the movement. It certainly is a barrier to making the substantial effort it would take to get involved in the scene. Why bother when you see supposed allies test each other like this?  I hope to go along to the...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

Not the Association for Corporate Growth then


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I think there are several layers of discussion going on. As usual with this debate. For the avoidance of doubt, I count Fozzie Bear and chilango as decent folks and comrades.



Oh yeah I'm sure they are, and as much as chillango probably feels otherwise I have on at least one occasion already held back in my responses to him exactly because I think they're decent folks and comrades.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not the Association for Corporate Growth then


No. The Anarchist Communist Group. You can read about our wicked ways on the interwebs.  ACG logo included in watch list


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

In fairness to Larry Noppius  I'm probably guilty of failing in my attempts to "not be a dick" in some of my replies to him. For which I apologize.

As my Gran used to say* "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything". So I'll leave off bickering with Larry now.

*Though tbh she also used to say "softly, softly catchee monkey" and "even if you fell in a midden you'd come up smelling of roses" so read into this what you will...


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m a member of ACG, who are, apparently,  “terfs who support Helen Steel”.  This Judgement is non negotiable and actual statements or positions are irrelevant.



That's pretty shocking.

One of the only nationally organised, explicitly Anarchist groups banned from the Anarchist Bookfair.


----------



## JimW (Feb 28, 2020)

If you stay at home and lock your doors you have nothing to fear from the Anarchist Communist Group.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

My granny once announced to a roomful of people in the local shop “I’m just off to join the IRA. I said I never would but they finally won me round with scones”.



Spoiler: Malapropism 



She meant the WRI. But she caused a few jaws to drop.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yes he did


At last we agree. (Or did I miss something?)


----------



## JimW (Feb 28, 2020)

Continuity WRI.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> That's pretty shocking.
> 
> One of the only nationally organised, explicitly Anarchist groups banned from the Anarchist Bookfair.


‘Banned’ is a strong word. Not invited.


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> ‘Banned’ is a strong word. Not invited.



Ah. Yes. Fair point.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> In fairness to Larry Noppius  I'm probably guilty of failing in my attempts to "not be a dick" in some of my replies to him. For which I apologize.



Did I not literally tell you that I don't care if you're "being a dick" (whatever that even means) in your replies to me? So what are you apologizing for? You have seem to have serious trouble with the notion that perhaps other people don't model and valuate the world the way you do. As far as I'm concerned, I have no squabble with you and I'm perfectly sure you're a decent comrade, but if you don't want the words "unsolicited" and "unwelcome" advice to "leap out at you" then don't put them in your post. How the fuck is this not obvious?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 28, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The last one I went to there was a bloke walking everywhere backwards. That was quite fun.


I think I saw him at a demo the other day. Unless there's a whole retropedestrian vanguard.


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Like I said, I feel that I wasn't living up to my own aims of "not being a dick" in social interactions.  That's it.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think I saw him at a demo the other day. Unless there's a whole retropedestrian vanguard.



Or channelling Spike Milligan.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Look Pickman, if you don't want someone to reference their argument with someone else in their dealings with you then don't ask them about it, that should be obvious.


I didn't ask you about it, which I thought was obvious. I asked if you're this much of a prig irl.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Rhyddical 

chilango and I, along with a trans poster here who will remain nameless attended a meeting of the ACG at the London Radical Bookfair in 2018.

It was a good meeting and there was (naturally) no hostility directed towards any of us.

I subsequently went to two ACG meetings at Mayday Rooms.

Based on my experiences and reading ACG materials, I am really struggling with the idea that anyone in the group is a Terf.

I wouldn't want to associate with a group that held those beliefs, so it would be worrying if the London Anarchist Bookfair 2020 organisers had evidence of this that they were witholding from the rest of us.

You don't have to reply to me publicly here but I hope you will take this on board.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I didn't ask you about it, which I thought was obvious. I asked if you're this much of a prig irl.



And I answered. If you don't like the answer then that's your problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> And I answered. If you don't like the answer then that's your problem.


It was like asking what's the tan of 45 and getting an answer to the question what's the connection between goldfinger and carry on nurse


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> Like I said, I feel that I wasn't living up to my own aims of "not being a dick" in social interactions.  That's it.



You were apologizing to yourself? What exactly did you consider "being a dick" anyway? I didn't even really experience it as "being a dick" so much as simply exasperating at one point.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It was like asking what's the tan of 45 and getting an answer to the question what's the connection between goldfinger and carry on nurse



More like quoting a question on the connection between goldfinger and carry on nurse to ask "is this connection always like this?" and then standing in amazement at getting an answer that references the connection between goldfinger and carry on nurse. I'll just refer you yet again to the post above summarizing and linking to the relevant exchange. Talk about premises built on sand, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> More like quoting a question on the connection between goldfinger and carry on nurse to ask "is this connection always like this?" and then standing in amazement at getting an answer that references the connection between goldfinger and carry on nurse. I'll just refer you yet again to the post above summarizing and linking to the relevant exchange. Talk about premises built on sand, right?


 you should be tutoring a course in advanced priggery and taking one in remedial english


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

Have you met Pickman's before, Larry ?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Have you met Pickman's before, Larry ?



Not to my knowledge, why?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

No reason


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> Like I said, I feel that I wasn't living up to my own aims of "not being a dick" in social interactions.  That's it.



Besides, if by your own claim your notion of "being a dick" is based in considering the effect of your behaviour on others, then me telling you that you did not have that effect on me implies you were not, in fact, "being a dick" so no need to even apologize to yourself.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> No reason



A highly dubitable claim.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 28, 2020)

indubitably


----------



## LDC (Feb 28, 2020)

I'd be very interested to know what the reasons for the ACG being 'not invited' are. And if the situation is they've asked for a stall and/or meetings and been turned down, or if they do ask for one they will be. If they have been then this makes a mockery of the claims of Rhyddical

I think this is an important issue that is discussion for more than just the Bookfair organisers if this is the case.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 28, 2020)

I seem to have completely missed a whole load of this thread about ACG. What's the deal there then re. bookfair? Have they not been invited or is there some disagreements raging between them and the bookfair crew? I think we should be told.

I do have big fucking issues with how people like Larry who seem to barely be able to properly discuss things in a genuine and open manner though, have rather blighted this whole sodding debate so far - and lots of Glinners and Spiked's all doing their very best to use it as a wedge too. I only look into social media as I don't post on any of them but that's bad enough.

I'll look forward to seeing some of you at bookfairs anyway. Be nice if I don't get accosted for a shit anti-trans flyer outside too, still always makes for roach material!


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If they have been then this makes a mockery of the claims of Rhyddical



Yeah _that_'s what makes a mockery of his claims. Nevermind claiming to have solid evidence of extraterrestrial life whilst waltzing around with one's own MAT. No, that is, to contrary, perfectly trust-inspiring behaviour.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> I do have big fucking issues with how people like Larry who seem to barely be able to properly discuss things in a genuine and open manner though, have rather blighted this whole sodding debate so far



Oh please, if Rhydiccal were able to properly discuss things in a genuine manner then he would've either retracted his wild claims or presented the evidence he claimed to have, rather than the stream of disingenuous responses he actually produced to avoid being held accountable for his words. But then, I don't believe you're actually interested in genuine discussion as much as simply annoyed that the disingenuity doesn't serve your purpose at this particular time.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 28, 2020)

See? You're doing it again. I don't have any investment in either you or @Rhyddical - I do think that despite his very annoying posting style which I put down to be youth and naivety, the posts I have read he has tried to engage more openly - even where I don't agree with him. That can't be said for you however. I don't know whether you're a banned returner or whatever, but either way you're way off the mark with what you think are my reasons for posting here and I'd like to think that those that know me will vouch that I try and to post openly and honestly as I see things and am here as I am offline. Fucked if I'm going to waste any more of my time on you anyway, I'm out.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> See? You're doing it again. I don't have any investment in either you or @Rhyddical - I do think that despite his very annoying posting style which I put down to be youth and naivety, the posts I have read he has tried to engage a bit here openly - even where I don't agree with him. That can't be said for you however. I don't know whether you're a banned returner or whatever, but if you have posted here before then you're way off the mark with what you think are my reasons for posting here and I'd like to think that those that know me here will vouch that I try and post openly and honestly as I see things. Fucked if I'm going to waste any more of my time on you anyway, I'm out.



I have not posted here before. But if you can't see that if one makes a claim - especially one as strong as having solid evidence of extraterrestrial life - and it gets challenged then there are two ways to retain a claim to genuine discussion and that's to either retract it or provide the evidence purported to be available, then as far as I'm concerned that's your problem and not mine. As for your claimed reason, of course I can't know your reasons for continuing to make unsubstantiated claims about me purportedly not being willing to engage in genuine discussion, I can only note your absence of such complaints when it came down to Rhydiccal being provided with ample opportunity to show the basic intellectual integrity required for any sort of genuine discussion. As for me not being open to genuine discussion, I think we may just mean different things under the term "genuine" so that may be why what you consider genuine seems disingenuous to me and vice versa. If you were to ever change your mind and try to engage in open and genuine discussion with me on a certain question, then try to use the following format: 1) conclusion, 2) premises, 3) argument from premises to conclusion. That usually helps if all sides are indeed as genuine as they claim to be.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that for most of us here the views of one of the bookfair organisers about aliens is pretty low down our list of things to worry about. 

Especially as there are more immediate practical concerns that will actually have a bearing on the event.

maybe that isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Or maybe there could be another thread for that. And one for what Jehovah’s Witnesses once said about Einstein or whatever.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

Heya guys, sorry for the delayed response, I hadn't actually expected the thread to get back to talking about anything that needed a reply!

Re the ACG.
They have not applied for a stall, they are welcome to do so and it will be discussed amongst the crew as any other network is. A prominant member of the network has also said outright that they didn't intend to come so err ya.

I'm not sure why Danny La Rouge seems to thing that is a policy of the Bookfair or why ACG are banned. Would you care to source that info? As it is currently, the Bookfair has no official position on the ACG and they certainly arn't "banned".

Saying this, I personally do not think they are "a network of terfs" or even supporters of transphobia/ Helen Steel and think they have made several steps forward to move beyond the initial upset following bookfair 2017. The intial version of their statement (prior to leaving the Anarchist Federation) was pretty awful and was laden with the kinds of statements and dogwhistles which would (and did) seriously upset trans members of the federation. I put this down to the 12 founders not having a heightened sense of awareness on the issue as others might, and mistakening the animosity directed at Helen Steel for IdPol. Since then, as the transphobia of HS and others has consolidated and become more evident it seems that the network and founders have distanced themselves and not only hosted trans speakers but gone to the point of issuing a trans solidarity statement (tho it needed editing and I much prefer the revised version, so who ever did that, hats off to you). I think regardless of the genisis of the ACG, it's clear that steps are being taken and self education underway, so I don't think there would be a reason to ban them, certainly not as a network, not at this point.

Infact I've maintained a constant support and affection for their yorkshire lot (who joined after the drama) who are, as far as I can tell, a great bunch of lads and lasses.

I am concerned that the two founding members (that I know) are on this thread have not once posted anything to counter some of the horrific transphobia here, but hey, it's 50 pages long now and you can't read everything, mind you there is atleast one person I had to block becuase of the shit they said (not sure context, probably just CBA with trolls/aggy) and I just found out they are a member and Danny who seems to have the wrong end of the stick a bit regarding bookfair and the ACG, hope this post goes some way towards correcting that.

As a member of the Federation tho what did tick me off was the mildly revisionist interview that was in Die Platform which made no mention to the drama that lead to their leaving the federation and rounded it up to "The AF is too syndaclist now". There has also been a constant sense of animosity directed towards the Federation both offline and online which does not exactly encourage a comradely discourse.

Those things are nothing to do with Bookfair tho, and have absolutely no impact on any decision on providing ACG with a stall.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that for most of us here the views of one of the bookfair organisers about aliens is pretty low down our list of things to worry about.



Sorry did I miss something wild here?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Sorry did I miss something wild here?



Apparently you have concrete evidence of extraterrestrial life? 

That must be a refreshing change after the other stuff that’s been laid at your door here.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Apparently you have concrete evidence of extraterrestrial life?



You what? HAHA I've got a few people hidden here so I'm obviously missing out on some gold.

Copy and paste? Dm?


----------



## chilango (Feb 28, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> I'm not sure why Danny La Rouge seems to thing that is a policy of the Bookfair or why ACG are banned. Would you care to source that info? As it is currently, the Bookfair has no official position on the ACG and they certainly arn't "banned".



That was me using the word "banned" after misreading danny la rouge's post.

He clarified "not invited".


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

_@rhy_


Rhyddical said:


> You what? HAHA I've got a few people hidden here so I'm obviously missing out on some gold.
> 
> Copy and paste? Dm?



I can’t be arsed going back through the thread but someone else might. 

thanks for engaging anyway Rhyddical


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

chilango said:


> That was me using the word "banned" after misreading danny la rouge's post.
> 
> He clarified "not invited".




Ah kk 

"not invited", yeah, this isn't a position we've come to.
They are welcome to request a stall.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that for most of us here the views of one of the bookfair organisers about aliens is pretty low down our list of things to worry about.



Of course their views about aliens are pretty low down the list - I already know full well he doesn't actually have the evidence, that'd be Nobel prize right there. But their inability to either retract such a claim or provide the evidence purportedly available when challenged goes a long way to demonstrate lack of interest in genuine discussion. But then I seem to be using "genuine" here apparently different than others, as to me intellectual integrity is a precondition for it.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

There you go.



Rhyddical said:


> we totally have solid evidence of extra terrestial life which is cool


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 28, 2020)

I had to nip down to the chemists so I'm struggling a bit to catch up. I've got as far as working out that the connection between Goldfinger and Carry On Nurse (page 49) is the actress Shirley Eaton, who I see is still alive. Do I take it she's a member of the Anarchist Communist Group ? If so that's welcome news. I had no idea they'd been able to set up a youth wing.

Would this be one of the 'several steps forward' that Rhyddical is referring to in an extremely patronising manner ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> There you go.


This scientist is persuaded viking found evidence of life on Mars in 1976 I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Oh please, if Rhydiccal were able to properly discuss things in a genuine manner then he would've either retracted his wild claims or presented the evidence he claimed to have, rather than the stream of disingenuous responses he actually produced to avoid being held accountable for his words. But then, I don't believe you're actually interested in genuine discussion as much as simply annoyed that the disingenuity doesn't serve your purpose at this particular time.


So there are standards of behaviour you desire to see other exhibit, contrary to your earlier claims


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> This scientist is persuaded viking found evidence of life on Mars in 1976 I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s



And Godel was persuaded people were trying to poison his food and only trusted his wife with it, leading to him starving to death when his wife was hospitalized for a long time. As nice as personal stories of even the most outstanding scholars may be, the scientific consensus is that there is no evidence, solid or otherwise, of extraterrestrial life. There are ideas and possibilities, no evidence. You call one scientist, I raise you the astrobiology division of NASA - no life beyond Earth has ever been found.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

Had to unhide Larry. "we totally have solid evidence of extra terrestial life which is cool"

Sadness I thought it would be something more sexy.
It's my understanding that NASA has several pretty conclusive indicators that there is microbial life on Europa.

Hardly ET coming to visit, but just to be clear, he's welcome at Bookfair and I'll borrow him m,y mobile if he fancies making a call.



Lurden, I'm sorry if you feel i'm being patronising, it's really not my intention. The several steps I refer to would be the isssue of solidarity statements, reaching out to Cister not Sister UK, hosting trans speakers etc. To my mind, these are absolutely spot on responses to peoples concerns and the hostility they took after placing support behind Helen post bookfair 2017 (ish/sorta and yes before ACG was founded officially).

I'm actually much less annoying in real life ;p My posting style here is all other the place as it's a wierd mix of being myself and trying to us a "formal voice" and ending up somewhere in the middle pissing everyone and their dog off it seems.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Of course their views about aliens are pretty low down the list - I already know full well he doesn't actually have the evidence, that'd be Nobel prize right there. But their inability to either retract such a claim or provide the evidence purportedly available when challenged goes a long way to demonstrate lack of interest in genuine discussion. But then I seem to be using "genuine" here apparently different than others, as to me intellectual integrity is a precondition for it.



I mean, he has you on ignore and nobody else here gives a shit. So “discussion” is stretching it a bit I think?


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> So there are standards of behaviour you desire to see other exhibit, contrary to your earlier claims



I never claimed there are no standards of behaviour I desire to see others exhibit, just that these standards weren't what you call "being a dick" or "not being a dick". Indeed, I'll take an intellectually honest dickhead over an intellectually dishonest smooth talker any day.


----------



## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

For those interested, There were two studies by NASA which pretty much concluded that there is life on Europa, Seems the article I had read was written shortly after these were posted and added in a definative rather than "highly likely" tho NASA themselves said probably conclusive by 2025 as a there is a mission due their or something.

Here is one,





						Error - Cookies Turned Off
					






					agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com
				




Can't find the other now haha

B


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I mean, he has you on ignore and nobody else here gives a shit. So “discussion” is stretching it a bit I think?



Obviously that post was from before he put me on ignore.


----------



## Athos (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> ... I write in English on this forum, even though it is not my mother tongue...



Vulcan? 

Christ, you even make me look touchy-feely.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> For those interested, There were two studies by NASA which pretty much concluded that there is life on Europa, Seems the article I had read was written shortly after this and added in a definative rather than "highly likely" tho NASA themselves said probably conclusive by 2025 as a there is a mission due their or something.
> 
> Here is one,
> 
> ...



This is a paper about plate tectonics on Europa. As for evidence of extraterrestrial life, let alone solid evidence, there isn't much of it in that paper.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 28, 2020)

While the ACG has not been invited, neither have we been disinvited. We may well apply for the London bookfair and will see how that pans out but, in truth, anarchist bookfairs are not really our priority. On the earlier comments about us being terfs, etc, yes there is the odd bit of malicious and vexatious misinformation being put about by a small number of bitter people. But life's too short to arse about getting into spats with them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> And Godel was persuaded people were trying to poison his food and only trusted his wife with it, leading to him starving to death when his wife was hospitalized for a long time. As nice as personal stories of even the most outstanding scholars may be, the scientific consensus is that there is no evidence, solid or otherwise, of extraterrestrial life. There are ideas and possibilities, no evidence. You call one scientist, I raise you the astrobiology division of NASA - no life beyond Earth has ever been found.


On the one hand I offer an account by a scientist who describes the objective grounds for his belief and you proffer a paranoid. Seem to me you're quite intellectually dishonest in describing the two as equivalent


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I never claimed there are no standards of behaviour I desire to see others exhibit, just that these standards weren't what you call "being a dick" or "not being a dick". Indeed, I'll take an intellectually honest dickhead over an intellectually dishonest smooth talker any day.


In fact you said that in a social environment you'd behave as you wanted to behave, which suggests (a) you wouldn't abide by social norms you felt contrary to your taste, and (b) you have no inclination to judge others' behaviour as you'd not have them judge you. Only you've now said you would judge them. Strange


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll see you godel and raise you a Copernicus or Galileo. On the one hand I offer an account by a scientist who describes the objective grounds for his belief and you proffer a paranoid. Seem to me you're quite intellectually dishonest in describing the two as equivalent



I'm not describing the two as equivalent, I'm using the one (paranoid) as an argumentum ad absurdum on why one goes by mainstream scientific consensus rather than an individual scientist's belief. I could get you a couple of physicists who deny human-made climate change yet surely you wouldn't use that as evidence against climate change.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that for most of us here the views of one of the bookfair organisers about aliens is pretty low down our list of things to worry about.
> 
> Especially as there are more immediate practical concerns that will actually have a bearing on the event.
> 
> maybe that isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Or maybe there could be another thread for that. And one for what Jehovah’s Witnesses once said about Einstein or whatever.


Think a workshop on Anarchism and life on other planets would pack the place out tbh .


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> In fact you said that in a social environment you'd behave as you wanted to behave, which suggests (a) you wouldn't abide by social norms you felt contrary to your taste, and (b) you have no inclination to judge others' behaviour as you'd not have them judge you. Only you've now said you would judge them. Strange



No idea where you got the notion that I said I wouldn't judge them, I just don't judge them on the particular terms which were given ("(not) being a dickhead").


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## killer b (Feb 28, 2020)

I went to a very busy talk on socialism and interstellar travel a few years ago.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I'm not describing the two as equivalent, I'm using the one (paranoid) as an argumentum ad absurdum on why one goes by mainstream scientific consensus rather than an individual scientist's belief. I could get you a couple of physicists who deny human-made climate change yet surely you wouldn't use that as evidence against climate change.


Tbh it depends what they said. Your all hail the great god Science ignores the way science progresses, which isn't by consensus but by paradigm shifts, and you'd not be so complacent if you'd read kuhn or feyerabend


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## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> No idea where you got the notion that I said I wouldn't judge them, I just don't judge them on the particular terms which were given ("(not) being a dickhead").


I didn't say you said it.


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## LDC (Feb 28, 2020)

Cheers for all the clarifications Rhyddical


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh it depends what they said. Your all hail the great god Science ignores the way science progresses, which isn't by consensus but by paradigm shifts, and you'd not be so complacent if you'd read kuhn or feyerabend



Interesting assumption that I haven't read them. You call a Kuhn and a Feyerabend, I raise you a Kolmogorov and a Turing. Edit: Scratch that, I should just raise you plain reasoning. Assuming the obvious fact that science progresses by paradigm shifts, does that mean that on any given question the opinion of an individual scientist has as much weight as the scientific consensus? Should I believe that couple of physicists who deny man-made climate change because, you know, paradigm shifts and stuff?


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I didn't say you said it.



True, you said that what I said suggested it. Still don't see where you get the notion that would be suggested though - I had thought it would be trivial that some form of judgement is obviously required, if only in deciding what to respond to who.


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## charlie mowbray (Feb 28, 2020)

Oh, and Rhyddical, the ACG is not a network, it's an organisation.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> I went to a very busy talk on socialism and interstellar travel a few years ago.



Fuck interstellar travel, it ain't gonna happen. Do one on interstellar language instead, the pomos are all about discourse and stuff anyway, aren't they?


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## Rhyddical (Feb 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Think a workshop on Anarchism and life on other planets would pack the place out tbh .



Anarchism in the space age , a panel discussion. Fuck yeah.
It's my mission to make that happen now ;p


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## Red Sky (Feb 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> I went to a very busy talk on socialism and interstellar travel a few years ago.



Where was it?


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Anarchism in the space age , a panel discussion. Fuck yeah.
> It's my mission to make that happen now ;p



Do get some actual experts on that panel though, and not cherry-picked ones like Pickman was doing. It may be all hip and dandy to jump from plate tectonics to extraterrestrial life by sheer wishful thinking, but it hardly constitutes solid evidence. Seriously though, even Pickman's choice has a better claim to extraterrestrial life than your paper on Europa's plate tectonics - at least with the former there was a time when biological explanations were necessary to explain the data.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 28, 2020)

All that revolutionary politics plus space or aliens or asteroids etc is a right turn off for me tbh, all a bit gamer scifi. Makes me think of lots of black tshirts. I can't even get into ursula le guin


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## nogojones (Feb 28, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Where was it?


On Earth


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 28, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> All that revolutionary politics plus space or aliens or asteroids etc is a right turn off for me tbh, all a bit gamer scifi. Makes me think of lots of black tshirts. I can't even get into ursula le guin



Space and asteroids aren't scifi though, they are real things. Aliens and Ursula Le Quin's work are scifi. I had assumed the panel discussion to be based on science rather than science fiction, perhaps that assumption was wrong. In which case I agree and it wouldn't interest me either. I'd still like to see a pomo literary critique of Lincos though, should be interesting.


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## killer b (Feb 28, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Where was it?


Manchester. Someone off here organised it iirc.


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## killer b (Feb 28, 2020)

there you go - there's a video of it towards the end of the thread if you're interested: [Thu 11th Aug 2016] Socialism & Space (Manchester)


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## ska invita (Feb 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Think a workshop on Anarchism and life on other planets would pack the place out tbh .


The Dispossessed As Praxis: Lessons From Mad Mike Hughes. Room 321 2pm


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## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> there you go - there's a video of it towards the end of the thread if you're interested: [Thu 11th Aug 2016] Socialism & Space (Manchester)


My ex house mate many many moons ago


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Your response and specifically the number of likes it got - given that it is just a contentless whine - clearly shows the deplorable state of that which pretends to be an anarchist movement in the UK. By the way, I'm still waiting for that solid evidence of extraterrestrial life that we were promised - or is this just going to get me another contentless whine that demanding evidence for the claim of extraterrestrial life is supposedly "anti-trans bigotry" or whatever random excuse for charlatanism you choose to employ this time? That people here are trying to hide behind transgender people to deflect the flak their charlatanism was obviously going to receive is appalling, it's one level of cowardice to hide behind some goons when one's crackpot claims get challenged, it's quite another to randomly push some transgender people into the firing line to hide behind.



Piss off.


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## The39thStep (Feb 29, 2020)

Anarchist Colonization of Mars
					

I was on a recent episode of the Anarchy Bang podcast with the topic being Anarchist Colonization of Mars. Here are the pieces that I wrote for the intro and the editorial for this episode.




					everything-voluntary.com


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## Red Cat (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Interesting assumption that I haven't read them. You call a Kuhn and a Feyerabend, I raise you a Kolmogorov and a Turing. Edit: Scratch that, I should just raise you plain reasoning. Assuming the obvious fact that science progresses by paradigm shifts, does that mean that on any given question the opinion of an individual scientist has as much weight as the scientific consensus? Should I believe that couple of physicists who deny man-made climate change because, you know, paradigm shifts and stuff?



Well no, because a paradigm shift, or a scientific revolution, is thought to develop when new facts aren't accounted for within the existing theory and so there is a breaking down of that theory, which is replaced by new theory, not just small modifications to existing theory that characterises 'normal science'.

The couple of physicists you speak of aren't presenting any new agreed upon facts that push the constraints of existing theory are they? On the one hand you say it's obvious that science progresses by paradigm shifts, the next you imply that concept implies a form of relativism.


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## two sheds (Feb 29, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> Well no, because a paradigm shift, or a scientific revolution, is thought to develop when new facts aren't accounted for within the existing theory and so there is a breaking down of that theory, which is replaced by new theory, not just small modifications to existing theory that characterises 'normal science'.



And the new theory only takes hold as the old scientists die out as I recall


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> Well no, because a paradigm shift, or a scientific revolution, is thought to develop when new facts aren't accounted for within the existing theory and so there is a breaking down of that theory, which is replaced by new theory, not just small modifications to existing theory that characterises 'normal science'.
> 
> The couple of physicists you speak of aren't presenting any new agreed upon facts that push the constraints of existing theory are they? On the one hand you say it's obvious that science progresses by paradigm shifts, the next you imply that concept implies a form of relativism.



Try reading my post in context of the claims by Pickman it was a response to. Pickman presented the claim by an individual scientist that the Martian meteorite constitutes solid evidence of extraterrestrial life. I presented that the scientific consensus on that question is that no evidence of extraterrestrial life has been found yet. Pickman retorted by bringing up Kuhn and Feyerabend claiming that science progresses by paradigm shifts. Specifically the argument goes basically "science progresses by paradigm shifts therefor the opinion of this one scientist should have as much weight as the scientific consensus" and that is the argument I responded to with my post. I'm arguing _against_ the relativism which was being implied by Pickman's post about paradigm shifts. My point in that post is very simple: Just because science progresses through paradigm shifts doesn't mean that any random individual scientist's belief on a question holds as much weight as the scientific consensus on that question.

You seem to be ascribing to me the argument which I was arguing against and interpreting my two leading questions designed to point out the flaw with that argument with genuine questions which might be answered affirmatively. Although admittedly I could've written that post a bit clearer instead of just relying on two leading questions - that I decided later to change tack from bringing up Kolmogorov and Turing to just some quick direct reasoning probably didn't help the readability of my post either. Kolmogorov and Turing weren't just arbitrarily brought up either, if you combine Kolmogorov complexity theory and computability theory you can construct a precise formalism for scientific progress through paradigm shifts, and why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory, see for example the Minimum Message Length formalism.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 29, 2020)

See this is what I was on about when I said space communism is a boring load of shite


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## Fozzie Bear (Feb 29, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> See this is what I was on about when I said space communism is a boring load of shite



I think most things can be terrible when the nerds take over. 

The Association of Autonomous Astronauts was not a boring load of shite.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 29, 2020)

And don't forget the first strike in space 
The Skylab 4 mutiny, 1973


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## Lurdan (Feb 29, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> See this is what I was on about when I said space communism is a boring load of shite


Are you saying you can't find any value in this ?

J. Posadas - Flying saucers, the process of matter and energy, science, the revolutionary and working-class struggle and the socialist future of mankind (1968) - Marxists.org

A leading figure in the Fourth International who was unafraid to move the paradigm shift stick and boldly lead socialist theory beyond the alienated limits of human rationality.


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## Red Cat (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Try reading my post in context of the claims by Pickman it was a response to. Pickman presented the claim by an individual scientist that the Martian meteorite constitutes solid evidence of extraterrestrial life. I presented that the scientific consensus on that question is that no evidence of extraterrestrial life has been found yet. Pickman retorted by bringing up Kuhn and Feyerabend claiming that science progresses by paradigm shifts. Specifically the argument goes basically "science progresses by paradigm shifts therefor the opinion of this one scientist should have as much weight as the scientific consensus" and that is the argument I responded to with my post. I'm arguing _against_ the relativism which was being implied by Pickman's post about paradigm shifts. My point in that post is very simple: Just because science progresses through paradigm shifts doesn't mean that any random individual scientist's belief on a question holds as much weight as the scientific consensus on that question.
> 
> You seem to be ascribing to me the argument which I was arguing against and interpreting my two leading questions designed to point out the flaw with that argument with genuine questions which might be answered affirmatively. Although admittedly I could've written that post a bit clearer instead of just relying on two leading questions - that I decided later to change tack from bringing up Kolmogorov and Turing to just some quick direct reasoning probably didn't help the readability of my post either. Kolmogorov and Turing weren't just arbitrarily brought up either, if you combine Kolmogorov complexity theory and computability theory you can construct a precise formalism for scientific progress through paradigm shifts, and why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory, see for example the Minimum Message Length formalism.



You believe that you can track the way in which scientific communities change their understanding of the world with some kind of complex algorithm? 

That kind of abstraction makes me queasy, no wonder you need all those words to hold on to.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> You believe that you can track the way in which scientific communities change their understanding of the world with some kind of complex algorithm?
> 
> That kind of abstraction makes me queasy, no wonder you need all those words to hold on to.



It's not my problem that "abstractions" (aka perfectly mainstream math) make you queasy. Other than that, there were two possibilities for your initial "misreading" of my post, which was that you either had a genuine misunderstanding or were disingenuously misrepresenting what I said. You were given the benefit of the doubt with my initial reply and have now shown clearly that the latter is the case, so I will happily leave you to go troll someone else. Edit: And just for the record, I didn't claim one can "track the way in which scientific communities change their understanding of the world with some kind of complex algorithm" - what I said was that formalisms exist which can tell you precisely under which circumstances to either add another ad-hoc modification to a model or change to another model entirely, and I gave you one example of such a formalism. This is hardly contentious and such model-selection formalisms have existed since at least the 70s.


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## Red Cat (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> It's not my problem that "abstractions" (aka perfectly mainstream math) make you queasy. Other than that, there were two possibilities for your initial "misreading" of my post, which was that you either had a genuine misunderstanding or were disingenuously misrepresenting what I said. You were given the benefit of the doubt with my initial reply and have now shown clearly that the latter is the case, so I will happily leave you to go troll someone else.



'Perfectly mainstream math' isn't an appropriate method for understanding complex human activity, it's untethered to social reality, hence queasy making. 

I didn't find your post clear because I found the argument leading up to it totally uninteresting, so your post perhaps lacked context, but I am aware of Khun, if not perfectly mainstream math. I wasn't being disingenuous in my representation of you, that's quite a paranoid take on things. That being said, I don't like how you relate to people here and maybe you should just fuck off.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Try reading my post in context of the claims by Pickman it was a response to. Pickman presented the claim by an individual scientist that the Martian meteorite constitutes solid evidence of extraterrestrial life. I presented that the scientific consensus on that question is that no evidence of extraterrestrial life has been found yet. Pickman retorted by bringing up Kuhn and Feyerabend claiming that science progresses by paradigm shifts. Specifically the argument goes basically "science progresses by paradigm shifts therefor the opinion of this one scientist should have as much weight as the scientific consensus" and that is the argument I responded to with my post. I'm arguing _against_ the relativism which was being implied by Pickman's post about paradigm shifts. My point in that post is very simple: Just because science progresses through paradigm shifts doesn't mean that any random individual scientist's belief on a question holds as much weight as the scientific consensus on that question.
> 
> You seem to be ascribing to me the argument which I was arguing against and interpreting my two leading questions designed to point out the flaw with that argument with genuine questions which might be answered affirmatively. Although admittedly I could've written that post a bit clearer instead of just relying on two leading questions - that I decided later to change tack from bringing up Kolmogorov and Turing to just some quick direct reasoning probably didn't help the readability of my post either. Kolmogorov and Turing weren't just arbitrarily brought up either, if you combine Kolmogorov complexity theory and computability theory you can construct a precise formalism for scientific progress through paradigm shifts, and why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory, see for example the Minimum Message Length formalism.


You mendacious shit.  I did not present the views of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life. I said this scientist believes that it's been found on Mars. And I'd be grateful for an apology for your inventing quotes and attributing them to me, not to mention your misrepresenting what I've said


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You mendacious shit.  I did not present the views of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life. I said this scientist believes that it's been found on Mars. And I'd be grateful for an apology for your inventing quotes and attributing them to me, not to mention your misrepresenting what I've said



I'll apologize for misrepresenting what you've said after you've apologized for falsely claiming that I am "inventing quotes and attributing them to you" you mendacious shit.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I'll apologize for misrepresenting what you've said after you've apologized for falsely claiming that I am "inventing quotes and attributing them to you" you mendacious shit.


There you go again, inventing quotes, you can't stop yourself. First you say I specifically used an argument I didn't and now this. Doubling down on your inventions isn't a good look.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> 'Perfectly mainstream math' isn't an appropriate method for understanding complex human activity, it's untethered to social reality, hence queasy making.


.
Well if math isn't an appropriate method for scientific model selection, then what would you have people use instead? Tarot cards? Are you seriously expecting your personal queasiness with math to be in any way, shape, or form a valid argument against its use?



> I didn't find your post clear because I found the argument leading up to it totally uninteresting, so your post perhaps lacked context, but I am aware of Khun, if not perfectly mainstream math. I wasn't being disingenuous in my representation of you,
> that's quite a paranoid take on things.



Well if it's not disingenuous then you sure have a knack for arguing against strawmen of your own creation. And it's hardly paranoia in an environment where disingenuous misrepresentations are endemic.



> That being said, I don't like how you relate to people here and maybe you should just fuck off.



And I can only imagine how full of yourself you have to be to think that _your personal queasiness_ with math somehow constitutes an argument against it. I suppose I could tell you to just fuck off because I don't like how you present nothing but your personal visceral reactions as if they somehow constituted arguments, but then I'm not so full of myself to expect others to fall all over themselves (either "fucking off" from a forum, or stop using math for scientific model selection) to abide by my personal wishes.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> stuff


You are really fucking boring. You have been reported multiple times for being really fucking boring and also just turning up here to attack existing posters.

Can you not be less boring and also attack existing posters less?

Before you say "who are you to tell me what to do" without looking at the sidebar, I'm a moderator. I really don't like to intervene with this stuff. Can we not just find a way?


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> inventing quotes and attributing them to me





Larry Noppius said:


> "inventing quotes and attributing them to you"





Pickman's model said:


> There you go again, inventing quotes, you can't stop yourself.



Uhuh...


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## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Uhuh...


oh right you think you can change words and claim them as a direct quote. You're happy misrepresenting other posters, saying they're arguing things they're not. You're acting like a dick.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 29, 2020)

No, this is still really boring.


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## xenon (Feb 29, 2020)

Today's word of the day is:
Turgid.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You are really fucking boring.



Well sounds like I fit in perfectly then.



> You have been reported multiple times for being really fucking boring and also just turning up here to attack existing posters.
> 
> Can you not be less boring and also attack existing posters less?
> 
> Before you say "who are you to tell me what to do" without looking at the sidebar, I'm a moderator. I really don't like to intervene with this stuff. Can we not just find a way?



I will continue to engage existing posters in the way they engage with me.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Well sounds like I fit in perfectly then.
> 
> 
> 
> I will continue to engage existing posters in the way they engage with me.


ok but be warned that at the point where you are considered to be disrupting this randomly wandering pointless thread, you run the risk of being banned

I appreciate that that isn't exactly much of a threat but I'm not interested in threats anyway so it's cool


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> oh right you think you can change words and claim them as a direct quote. You're happy misrepresenting other posters, saying they're arguing things they're not. You're acting like a dick.



Yes Pickman, you can change a direct reference such as "me" to "you" to retain the meaning of the quote. Not only is that not misrepresenting a statement but it is the exact opposite, given that the particular transformation is required to _retain_ the original meaning.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Yes Pickman, you can change a direct reference such as "me" to "you" to retain the meaning of the quote. Not only is that not misrepresenting a statement but it is the exact opposite, given that thej particular transformation is required to _retain_ the original meaning.


no it isn't. You made a choice to lie above about what I was saying. And you're lying here that changing what I said is necessary to retain the original meaning.


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## Red Cat (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> .
> Well if math isn't an appropriate method for scientific model selection, then what would you have people use instead? Tarot cards? Are you seriously expecting your personal queasiness with math to be in any way, shape, or form a valid argument against its use?
> 
> 
> ...



You said there was a mathematical model that could show 'why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory'.  You didn't explain what that meant, and you knew it wouldn't be clear to non-mathematicians, which is why you said it. There are a couple of excellent mathematicians here, I'm not one of them. You hoped to intimidate me. I understood you as saying that you can explain the progress of science by applying a mathematical model, divorced from the activity that produces it, i.e no need for social science here. You then edited your post to explain what you meant, but again did it in such a highly arrogant way that was meant to let us all know how superior you are, and still didn't provide clarity.

Maths doesn't make me queasy, people applying inappropriately abstract concepts to the messy stuff of human society, that makes me feel queasy because it seems mad, divorced from life. If that's not what you were doing, then fair enough, but you write in such a way as to make it very difficult to understand _what _you mean, it's like you're arguing with a version of yourself.

I don't think my personal visceral reactions _do_ constitute arguments, they're descriptions not explanations - sometimes that's all we have and its imperious to insist otherwise.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ok but be warned that at the point where you are considered to be disrupting this randomly wandering pointless thread, you run the risk of being banned



Fair enough.



> I appreciate that that isn't exactly much of a threat but I'm not interested in threats anyway so it's cool



What kind of anarchist would respond to such threat anyway? Either you take a position on principle and see it through or you don't, and any anarchist who would be scared out of the former by the threat of being banned from an internet forum should wait to see what kind of threats the state has in store for them.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no it isn't. You made a choice to lie above about what I was saying. And you're lying here that changing what I said is necessary to retain the original meaning.



Even if we adopt your stylistic preference - because that's all it is - then your sophistry still doesn't support your baseless accusation, since changing the word "me" to the word "you" neither _misrepresented_ what you said nor constitutes _inventing_ a quote.


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## wayward bob (Feb 29, 2020)

stethoscope it's really good to see you posting again. other than that i'll back away from thread...


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> You said there was a mathematical model that could show 'why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory'.  You didn't explain what that meant, and you knew it wouldn't be clear to non-mathematicians, which is why you said it. There are a couple of excellent mathematicians here, I'm not one of them. You hoped to intimidate me. I understood you as saying that you can explain the progress of science by applying a mathematical model, divorced from the activity that produces it, i.e no need for social science here. You then edited your post to explain what you meant, but again did it in such a highly arrogant way that was meant to let us all know how superior you are, and still didn't provide clarity.
> 
> Maths doesn't make me queasy, people applying inappropriately abstract concepts to the messy stuff of human society, that makes me feel queasy because it seems mad, divorced from life. If that's not what you were doing, then fair enough, but you write in such a way as to make it very difficult to understand _what _you mean, it's like you're arguing with a version of yourself.
> 
> I don't think my personal visceral reactions _do_ constitute arguments, they're descriptions not explanations - sometimes that's all we have and its imperious to insist otherwise.



Ok maybe we got off on the wrong foot here, and I wasn't trying to intimidate you, I guess I was just assuming you had more background knowledge. As for clarity, let me restart and try to be more "pedagogical" rather than "argumentative" for lack of a better way of putting it.

In science - specifically physics - what we do is use models to explain observations. These models are expressed in precise mathematical terms. For example if I let some objects fall to the ground then I can observe the height from which I let them fall and the time they took to hit the ground. These constitute observations, they are the data. I can then use a model, for example Newtonian gravity, to explain these observations. In particular, I can use this model to predict the time the objects took to hit the ground based on the height from which they are falling. Fundamentally, that's what science is, finding models to explain and predict observations. The question then becomes, out of a number of different models for explaining a given set of observations, which should I choose? That's the problem of model selection. There are many ways to do this, but since the advent of algorithmic information theory in the 60s and 70s there is one related set of formalisms that is particularly suited to formalizing that which is called paradigm shifts (which are, in and of themselves, merely instances of model selection) and that is where Kolmogorov and Turing come in.

Let's introduce some notation first. Both observations and models will be given as a finite string of symbols from a finite alphabet, enclosed in quotes. For example if we say that the symbol L represents letting go off an object and the symbol D represents the object falling down, then "LDLDLDLD" represents the observation of letting go off an object 4 times and watching it fall down 4 times. Two dots (..) will represent an arbitrarily large yet still finite number of repetitions of the preceding characters. For example "LD.." represents letting go off an object and watching it fall down an arbitrarily large number of times. | will be used to denote length, for example |"LDLD"| = 4. Lastly, -> represents a mapping and will be used in model descriptions. This will become clear in a moment.

Now suppose we have the observation "LD.." and we are looking for a model for this observation. In particular, and this is the crucial point, note that observation has a certain pattern. Writing it out a bit longer "LDLDLDLD.." you can see there's a pattern there, every L is succeeded by a D. The other part of the crucial point is that such strings can be compressed. We could write the data "LD.." as the combination of "L->LD" and "L..". We'll call the original "LD.." the data, "L->LD" the model, and "L.." the compressed data. The original data can be recovered by applying the model to the compressed data. In our little toy example the model "L->LD" is a crude law of gravity, saying that if you let go off something then it falls down. This brings us to model selection, which model should I choose? The answer being, you should choose the model such that the concatenation of the model and the compressed data has minimum length (the minimum such achievable length is called the Kolmogorov complexity of the data).

Now for how this ties into the question of either adding an ad-hoc modification to an existing model or switching to an entirely different model (the normal science vs paradigm shift). Suppose you have data D and two competing models M and M' giving the same compression ratio of the data with |M| << |M'|. At this point you're going with M, given that it leads to a smaller length of the model+compressed data. Now suppose new data comes in that isn't explained by M (those "new facts" that you referred to). We have the choice of either adding an ad-hoc modification to M or switch to M'. At first we'd add an ad-hoc modification to M, making M slightly larger. If we keep doing this though then at some point we'll have made M so large that it has become larger than M', rather than |M| < |M'| it is now |M| > |M'| and hence we switch from M to M' - that's the paradigm shift. That's what I meant by saying that formalisms exist in which the notion of why and when to switch from adding ad-hoc modifications to existing models to using an entirely different model can be made precise.

And lastly for the disclaimers. First of all, I have of course left out a whole lot of stuff and took some shortcuts to try to make it easy and so there are several technical inaccuracies in the above. Secondly, this particular formalism (and there are many related ones) isn't how this is done in practice. Foremost because Kolmogorov complexity is undecidable (there is no possible algorithm that will give you the Kolmogorov complexity of an arbitrary string) and also because actually formalizing actual physics models and data in this way would be an incredible amount of work for little practical benefit. What it does do, however, is give a precise formal notion as to _why_ and _when _either ad-hoc modifications to existing models are made or entirely different models are substituted. Edit: As a last disclaimer, since you brought up the social sciences, if your models and data are not mathematically precise then they are not amenable to algorithmic information theory and the above obviously doesn't apply. I'm not familiar enough with social sciences to readily tell, so for sake of argument just assume I'm talking here physics only.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> What kind of anarchist would respond to such threat anyway? Either you take a position on principle and see it through or you don't, and any anarchist who would be scared out of the former by the threat of being banned from an internet forum should wait to see what kind of threats the state has in store for them.



This is great really


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Even if we adopt your stylistic preference - because that's all it is - then your sophistry still doesn't support your baseless accusation, since changing the word "me" to the word "you" neither _misrepresented_ what you said nor constitutes _inventing_ a quote.


 when I said you lied above I was talking about the post where you mention feyerabend and kuhn and attribute to me things I didn't say.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> No thanks, I'm not interested in whatever arbitrary social norms you demand me to abide by (the "be less of a dickhead" part) or whatever social credit system that you've set up to measure it (the "factors at play" in likes). Indeed, unless these likes express agreement with a particular argument I couldn't care less about them. You've made clear that they don't, hence I'll just ignore them.


Hehehe.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> are you this much of a prig off the boards?


I've always wanted to call someone a prig. It would never work in my accent though.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> when I said you lied above I was talking about the post where you mention feyerabend and kuhn and attribute to me things I didn't say.



You stated:


Pickman's model said:


> I did not present the views of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life.



This is what I said:


Larry Noppius said:


> Pickman presented the claim by an individual scientist that the Martian meteorite constitutes solid evidence of extraterrestrial life.



That doesn't say that you presented the view of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life, it says that you presented a claim by one scientist saying so. I did not attribute the claim of alien life to _you_, I said you _presented_ one _scientist's claim_ to that effect.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> You stated:
> 
> 
> This is what I said:
> ...


Er I said this scientist believes that viking found life on Mars in 1976, nothing about Martian meteorites. But this is only one thing you claim I said which I didn't.


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## TopCat (Feb 29, 2020)

I guess whatshisnzme just bans this person off the anarchist bookfair face book discussion group wall. Hence them washing up here.


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## Larry Noppius (Feb 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Er I said this scientist believes that viking found life on Mars in 1976, nothing about Martian meteorites. But this is only one thing you claim I said which I didn't.



Oh right, apologies, I thought it was about the ALH84001 thing (Martian meteorite which was claimed by some scientists to constitute evidence of extraterrestrial life, there was a whole fuzz about it).


----------



## TopCat (Feb 29, 2020)

I prefer the Clangars.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 29, 2020)

This one, the very first episode if I'm right, stands out as something special. 
By its tone, the music, you know this is serious scientific stuff.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 1, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Ok maybe we got off on the wrong foot here, and I wasn't trying to intimidate you, I guess I was just assuming you had more background knowledge. As for clarity, let me restart and try to be more "pedagogical" rather than "argumentative" for lack of a better way of putting it.
> 
> In science - specifically physics - what we do is use models to explain observations. These models are expressed in precise mathematical terms. For example if I let some objects fall to the ground then I can observe the height from which I let them fall and the time they took to hit the ground. These constitute observations, they are the data. I can then use a model, for example Newtonian gravity, to explain these observations. In particular, I can use this model to predict the time the objects took to hit the ground based on the height from which they are falling. Fundamentally, that's what science is, finding models to explain and predict observations. The question then becomes, out of a number of different models for explaining a given set of observations, which should I choose? That's the problem of model selection. There are many ways to do this, but since the advent of algorithmic information theory in the 60s and 70s there is one related set of formalisms that is particularly suited to formalizing that which is called paradigm shifts (which are, in and of themselves, merely instances of model selection) and that is where Kolmogorov and Turing come in.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the explanation, I did find that interesting. 

I'm not sure why you would assume I have more background knowledge of a specialist area though. Perhaps this is part of the problem here- you assume people are arguing from and for the same models, and values, and yet, we're not. I understand what a scientific model is in physics and your explanation makes sense in that context. I suppose I don't think of only physics when I think of science, and I don't think that all science should proceed as though it is physics, or as though the underlying physics is the true science. So your argument did appear to be very abstract in the wider context of science. 

My mention of social science wasn't about whether this model could be applied to that, and more an acknowledgement of other factors, social,political, that make up the complex activity that is the generation of scientific knowledge, including physics. 

Anyway, I do appreciate the explanation, but it's a huge detour from the discussion on the thread so perhaps we should leave it there.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> I'm not sure why you would assume I have more background knowledge of a specialist area though.



Because you commented on it, quite dismissively so, something along the lines of that such abstractions make you queasy and no wonder that I need all those words to hold on to. It shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if a person comments, especially out-of-hand dismissively, on a subject that they at least have some knowledge on the subject they're commenting on.



> Perhaps this is part of the problem here- you assume people are arguing from and for the same models, and values, and yet, we're not.



As for values, that much seems obvious, as the endless stream of "you're being a dickhead" comments demonstrates. I do think it's also partially because people are so quick to make various claims on things they don't know about, for example earlier with Rhydiccal who is surely aware that he's not a biologist nor has other scientific training yet that in no way stopping him from playing biology teacher and talking a load of BS. If I am presented with a subject I don't know about I simply acknowledge I don't have the requisite knowledge and limit my claims to that which I do know about, for example in my edit to my previous post in response to you bringing up the social sciences.



> I understand what a scientific model is in physics and your explanation makes sense in that context. I suppose I don't think of only physics when I think of science, and I don't think that all science should proceed as though it is physics, or as though the underlying physics is the true science. So your argument did appear to be very abstract in the wider context of science.



I'm a reductionist so we'll have to agree to disagree there. You may find Solomonoff's theory of induction interesting though, just google it. It's based on closely related notions but meant to be more generally applicable, putting it more in philosophy proper rather than science as such. Edit: There seems to be a decent intuitive/non-mathematical overview of it here although it is quite long.



> Anyway, I do appreciate the explanation, but it's a huge detour from the discussion on the thread so perhaps we should leave it there.



Ok, agreed.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 1, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> I'm a reductionist so we'll have to agree to disagree there.



I am afraid your posts would suggest you are far from being a reductionist but are instead far more of an extendalist. You may find John Parkin's theory of "Fuck It Therapy" interesting though. Fuck It Therapy by John Parkin | Waterstones


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I am afraid your posts would suggest you are far from being a reductionist but are instead far more of an extendalist. You may find John Parkin's theory of "Fuck It Therapy" interesting though. Fuck It Therapy by John Parkin | Waterstones



I'm not sure what an extendalist is and google didn't give any results. No idea why my posts would suggest I'm not a reductionist, but to be clear, I meant reductionist in the scientific sense. In particular the belief that physics provides a full and complete description of the world and other disciplines (chemistry, biology, even social sciences) are in principle, if not in practice, reducible to it.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 1, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> In particular the belief that physics provides a full and complete description of the world and other disciplines (chemistry, biology, even social sciences) are *in principle, if not in practice*, reducible to it.


 If you are truly a reductionist how can you justify your position if the parts I have bolded in the above quote are true?


----------



## kenny g (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> If you are truly a reductionist how can you justify your position if the parts I have bolded in the above quote are true?



And answer was there none...


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> If you are truly a reductionist how can you justify your position if the parts I have bolded in the above quote are true?



Not sure what exactly you're looking for. If you're looking for an argument of how one theory can in principle reduce to another even if not in practice, then you can look at the correspondence principle which reduces quantum mechanics to Newtonian mechanics. We have no hope in hell of ever practically modeling a macroscopic system (say, a baseball) in quantum terms since the number of degrees of freedom is prohibitive, it would require a supercomputer orders of magnitude beyond what we can hope to accomplish. Yet that doesn't mean one can't show how Newtonian mechanics, which can in practice model a baseball, arises from quantum mechanics through particular constructive and destructive interference of the wave function. The same is true, for, say reducing chemistry to physics. We don't have a hope in hell of modeling a chemical system in purely quantum terms but we can still show how one arises from and reduces to the other.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> And answer was there none...



You are a bit impatient, aren't you? I was out buying cigarettes.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 1, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Not sure what exactly you're looking for. If you're looking for an argument of how one theory can in principle reduce to another even if not in practice, then you can look at the correspondence principle which reduces Newtonian mechanics to quantum mechanics. We have no hope in hell of ever practically modeling a macroscopic system (say, a baseball) in quantum terms since the number of degrees of freedom is prohibitive, it would require a supercomputer orders of magnitude beyond what we can hope to accomplish. Yet that doesn't mean one can't show how Newtonian mechanics, which can in practice model a baseball, arises from and reduces to quantum mechanics through particular constructive and destructive interference of the wave function. The same is true, for, say reducing chemistry to physics. We don't have a hope in hell of modeling a chemical system in purely quantum terms but we can still show how one arises from and reduces to the other.



Which is a pretty good exposition of why reductionism isn't practical. It is an article of faith.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Which is a pretty good exposition of why reductionism isn't practical. It is an article of faith.



That's pretty anti-intellectual, just because something isn't practical doesn't mean it's just an article of faith. It isn't practical to go stand on the surface of Pluto to see whether you don't change into a unicorn, therefor it is but a mere "article of faith" to believe that if you were to go stand there that you wouldn't instantly turn into a unicorn?


----------



## kenny g (Mar 1, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That's pretty anti-intellectual, just because something isn't practical doesn't mean it's just an article of faith. It isn't practical to go stand on the surface of Pluto to see whether you don't change into a unicorn, therefor it is but a mere "article of faith" to believe that if you were to go stand there that you wouldn't instantly turn into a unicorn?



One  approach to take is to choose a form of explanation which is the simplest available whilst also being testable and reproducible. That is where an attempt to state all reductionist accounts are valid fails. They are not the simplest available and would often be impossible to test due to their very complexity, If you want to say they are as valid as the negation of an absurdity then you aren't really claiming much.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> One  approach to take is to choose a form of explanation which is the simplest available whilst also being testable and reproducible. That is where an attempt to state all reductionist accounts are valid fails. They are not the simplest available and would often be impossible to test due to their very complexity, If you want to say they are as valid as the negation of an absurdity then you aren't really claiming much.



How are they not the simplest available? A theory which reduces to another underlying theory adds zero information, its results are directly entailed by the underlying theory. It seems to me that the irreductionist position is the more complex one, because it requires a theory to _add_ things not directly entailed by the underlying theory. And while it's certainly true that it's impractical to test, so is the irreductionist position, equally so.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 1, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> How are they not the simplest available? A theory which reduces to another underlying theory adds zero information, its results are directly entailed by the underlying theory. It seems to me that the irreductionist position is the more complex one, because it requires a theory to _add_ things not directly entailed by the underlying theory. And while it's certainly true that it's impractical to test, so is the irreductionist position, equally so.


It is not impractical to test a theory as to where one lone snooker ball is going to travel using Newtonian mechanics. It would be impractical using quantum mechanics. It is simplest to use Newtonian mechanics. If you were predicting the movement of one snooker ball from the collisions of thousands of snooker balls probability theories may be the simplest approach. A reductionist approach to all situations introduces unnecesary complexity and non-verfiability, and is unscientific.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 1, 2020)

Well, this thread has certainly taken a turn


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## Larry Noppius (Mar 1, 2020)

kenny g said:


> It is not impractical to test a theory as to where one lone snooker ball is going to travel using Newtonian mechanics. It would be impractical using quantum mechanics. It is simplest to use Newtonian mechanics. If you were predicting the movement of one snooker ball from the collisions of thousands of snooker balls probability theories may be the simplest approach. A reductionist approach to all situations introduces unnecesary complexity and non-verfiability, and is unscientific.



That seems a pretty strange example to use to argue against reductionism given that this is one of the few cases where we can directly prove that the quantum description does reduce to the Newtonian description. What parts of Newtonian mechanics, exactly, do you think are not entailed by quantum mechanics? And I'm not sure exactly how you're using the term complexity here, but it's the other way around. Let Q be the quantum description of a system and N the Newtonian description, then the position that Q reduces to N (Q logically entails N) means that the union Q u N is no more complex than Q. To the contrary, it is the position that Q does not reduce to N (Q does not logically entail N) which makes Q u N more complex than Q. No idea why you would call reductionism unscientific, it's almost built into physics: special relativity reduces to Newtonian mechanics in the limit of small velocities, general relativity reduces to Newtonian gravity in the limit of weak fields, etc. Edit: I'd get it if you'd argue against reductionism from, say, psychology to physics as there is of course no direct proof available. But to argue against reductionism between theories _within_ physics seems strange, as there we actually have direct proofs of it.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 1, 2020)

I agree with some bits of some of the posts so far, but not with other bits.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 1, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I agree with some bits of some of the posts so far, but not with other bits.


Trouble is I can’t decide which bits.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> This is great really



Any poster that hasn’t been banned is a wimp


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## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

In fairness I know sweet FA about relativism in physics


----------



## nogojones (Mar 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> In fairness I know sweet FA about relativism in physics


Don't let that stop you though


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## Wilf (Mar 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> In fairness I know sweet FA about relativism in physics


E=MC Hammer. That's just about all you need.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

Well I found it amusing


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

Some joke about Sparts turning up at the bookfair which I haven’t thought of yet


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## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Well I found it amusing
> View attachment 200323


the famous equation is

E=MC is meaningless.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Some joke about Sparts turning up at the bookfair which I haven’t thought of yet


Hammer of the Scots Trots,


----------



## kenny g (Mar 2, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the famous equation is
> View attachment 200324
> E=MC is meaningless.



Well, it is wrong rather than meaningless.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 2, 2020)

Somehow I don’t think MadeInBedlam was submitting “E=mc Hammer” for peer review...


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## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

Well, perhaps I should


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 2, 2020)

Sorry, it was actually Wilf


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Any poster that hasn’t been banned is a wimp



That's not what I said. By far the largest majority of posters who haven't been banned probably haven't been banned because they already had a position that was congruent with the "community values" and hence were never "threatened" with a ban to change their position.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Somehow I don’t think MadeInBedlam was submitting “E=mc Hammer” for peer review...


Oh I think he was, and hoping to garner some social credit points for it


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 2, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh I think he was, and hoping to garner some social credit points for it


Then he’s more of a maverick that I gave him credit for, James.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 2, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That's not what I said. By far the largest majority of posters who haven't been banned probably haven't been banned because they already had a position that was congruent with the "community values" and hence were never "threatened" with a ban to change their position.



Evidence? And before you provide it please define the community values of which you speak.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

I’d be happy with a can coke and a packet of fags tbh


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That's not what I said. By far the largest majority of posters who haven't been banned probably haven't been banned because they already had a position that was congruent with the "community values" and hence were never "threatened" with a ban to change their position.



Bunch of fakers


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## Shechemite (Mar 2, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry, it was actually Wilf



You snooze you lose


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 2, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Evidence? And before you provide it please define the community values of which you speak.



As for community values, chilango would be in the best position to define those properly as he's the one who brought them up. Best as I can tell they are 1) don't be "dickhead", 2) don't be "boring", and 3) don't "attack" existing posters. As for evidence that the largest majority of non-banned posters haven't been threatened with a ban, not only would that seem the appropriate null hypothesis due to self-selection mechanisms (ie people tend to form social groups with people who share their values) but a read of this and a couple of other threads shows such threats to be a rare occurence.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Bunch of fakers



What is it with this overvaluation of conformity? I pointed out a difference (some people taking other positions than others), you're the one who makes that into a value judgement (people taking a different position being negatively valued for it: "fakers")


----------



## kenny g (Mar 2, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> chilango would be in the best position to define those properly as he's the one who brought them up.


 That is extremely questionable. The very fact he brought them up may be evidence he has a lack of awareness of the values if they were ones of secrecy, for instance.


----------



## DarkEther (Mar 11, 2020)

Video statement regarding the complaints about the bookfair being put on by a new collective (and one that has been critical of some of the prior bookfairs actions/inactions).


----------



## TopCat (Mar 11, 2020)

DarkEther said:


> Video statement regarding the complaints about the bookfair being put on by a new collective (and one that has been critical of some of the prior bookfairs actions/inactions).


Can you say something about this statement please? Just pasting it up is not seen as a good thing .
Edited to add. This is just stupid.


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

DarkEther said:


> Video statement regarding the complaints about the bookfair being put on by a new collective (and one that has been critical of some of the prior bookfairs actions/inactions).



This kind of smug bullshit does not help you and your little authoritarian neo-liberal sudo anarchists, but keeps in line to the way you handle calling people out (or not handle but fuck up badly!) and your transparent attempts to `own` anarchism . It's like you think you know better than everybody who came before you . Arrogant, ineffective, egotistical, no-solidarity, no class-conciousness(i aint buying your fake shit) .... absolutely useless in ruck ... cultists; thats you.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 11, 2020)

RTWL said:


> This kind of smug bullshit does not help you and your little authoritarian neo-liberal sudo anarchists, but keeps in line to the way you handle calling people out (or not handle but fuck up badly!) and your transparent attempts to `own` anarchism . It's like you think you know better than everybody who came before you . Arrogant, ineffective, egotistical, no-solidarity, no class-conciousness(i aint buying your fake shit) .... absolutely useless in ruck ... cultists; thats you.


Who is who? Which side are the Freedom lot?


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

I am just airing criticism at the attitude of .... i though i made it quite clear... these authoritarian neo-liberal sudo anarchist lot that have been hanging about for a bit now.

When you mentioned Freedom guess you are implying that every stall holder/associate is a paid up member of their movement and I have no grounds levelling criticism ?


----------



## Rhyddical (Mar 11, 2020)

Who are the authoritarian neo-liberal sudo anarchists? The dude sharing a meme video? I mean seems a bit of an over reaction but ok.


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## TopCat (Mar 11, 2020)

Do they mean pseudo not sudo? The latter being a meth ingredient.  

Anyway who are who?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do they mean pseudo not sudo? The latter being a meth ingredient.


Or maybe sumo?



> Anyway who are who?


This thread is quite the magnet for first time posters and drive bys. Who is anyone?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 11, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Or maybe sumo?
> 
> This thread is quite the magnet for first time posters and drive bys. Who is anyone?


Well I'm me. I'm certain of this. Not sure where the pro and anti trans camps have set up let alone those pesky 12 year olds trying to take over everything..


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do they mean pseudo not sudo? The latter being a meth ingredient.
> 
> Anyway who are who?



You know who i mean. Partly the BookFair organizers , mostly just a trend in radical culture that's blossomed over the past 10 years or so  characterized by an authoritarian attitude and an unforgiving and often inaccurate call out culture. I don`t know what to call them. When ever I go round their squats their like ... no dogs ... no smoking ... no drinking ect. When they come to our meetings they usually try to enforce the same shit... in our spaces. I dunno ... is that clear?

I did think the phrase authoritarian neo-liberal pseudo anarchist (or ANPA) was quite good


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well I'm me. I'm certain of this. Not sure where the pro and anti trans camps have set up let alone those pesky 12 year olds trying to take over everything..


We’re old, mate. It’s a brand new world.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2020)

RTWL said:


> I don`t know what to call them. When ever I go round their squats their like ... no dogs ... no smoking ... no drinking ect. When they come to our meetings they usually try to enforce the same shit... in our spaces. I dunno ... is that clear?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 11, 2020)

RTWL said:


> You know who i mean. Partly the BookFair organizers , mostly just a trend in radical culture that's blossomed over the past 10 years or so  characterized by an authoritarian attitude and an unforgiving and often inaccurate call out culture. I don`t know what to call them. When ever I go round their squats their like ... no dogs ... no smoking ... no drinking ect. When they come to our meetings they usually try to enforce the same shit... in our spaces. I dunno ... is that clear?
> 
> I did think the phrase authoritarian neo-liberal pseudo anarchist (or ANPA) was quite good



what stops you going outside for a cigarette? Radical culture eh


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 11, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> We’re old



matured. Like cows milk.


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> what stops you going outside for a cigarette? Radical culture eh



Yes .. i have never taken the piss... we would help them out with evictions and tools n that . It`s just when people come into your space to have a chat and then demand you put out the spliff or put down the beer ... tis a little unfriendly.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 11, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Yes .. i have never taken the piss... we would help them out with evictions and tools n that . It`s just when people come into your space to have a chat and then demand you put out the spliff or put down the beer ... tis a little unfriendly.


Its fucking arrogant and hugely self entitled.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 11, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Yes .. i have never taken the piss... we would help them out with evictions and tools n that . It`s just when people come into your space to have a chat and then demand you put out the spliff or put down the beer ... tis a little unfriendly.



sorry im not familiar with radical spaces.

Who went to whose space?


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

Well, personally I can`t bear living with most of the people I would put in this category for cultural reasons, so when living in shops and social centres I would always squat with the punks who were mainly anarchist. Some of the authoritarian brigade would always be set up elsewhere in the city . When they came round to ours for a chat they would try and enforce their safe-space liberal stuff . We would laugh. Different cities and groups but same trends. This is in the uk .


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 11, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Well, personally I can`t bear living with most of the people I would put in this category for cultural reasons, so when living in shops and social centres I would always squat with the punks who were mainly anarchist. Some of the authoritarian brigade would always be set up elsewhere in the city . When they came round to ours for a chat they would try and enforce their safe-space liberal stuff . We would laugh. Different cities and groups but same trends. This is in the uk .



sound like wankers. Why have them round your place?


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

cos we resonated on certain things . And well... I personally support a lot of their political aims . Solidarity .


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 11, 2020)

Poor judgement leads to experience


----------



## TopCat (Mar 11, 2020)

Are there any squats and social centres any more? I wish there were. Even though I first recollect no drugs and drinking signs in such places in the early 2000''s. 

Exporting such demanding behaviour to some one elses front room always did seem to irk.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 11, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> But they're so rough and straight-talking. Like gods.



Now now, Butchers, I wouldn’t go that far.
However, if we’re both looking at the same map then surely they ought to be accommodated sometimes.


----------



## RTWL (Mar 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Are there any squats and social centres any more? I wish there were. Even though I first recollect no drugs and drinking signs in such places in the early 2000''s.
> 
> Exporting such demanding behaviour to some one elses front room always did seem to irk.



Yep . I've been on a brake to fix myself for the past 2 years now but people are still at it  Cant beat a friendly anti-capitalist environment within the community.
Although .... the general reaction to the squatting laws was piss poor in the uk and it has downsized . Didn't somebody squat  Paddington cop shop
Recently?






						London: Paddington Green Police Station occupation in anticipation of our week of action
					






					en.squat.net
				








						Green Anticapitalist week of action, Green Anticapitalist Front @ 2020-02-24 00:00:00 to 2020-03-02 00:00:00 | radar.squat.net
					

The British government has been elected and, with the Tories in power, it looks bleaker for the future of our planet than ever before.




					radar.squat.net
				




The no-smoking no-drugs/drink thing could be understandable when talking about a certain space at a certain time but when your living there and running a public space ...  I don`t know.... but it could explain why they are so miserable  :/ (or expose their neo-liberal internalization lol)


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Are there any squats and social centres any more? I wish there were. Even though I first recollect no drugs and drinking signs in such places in the early 2000''s.
> 
> Exporting such demanding behaviour to some one elses front room always did seem to irk.



Yes. But like you (I suspect) I'll only find out about them after they've happened.


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## Serge Forward (Mar 11, 2020)

Speaking as someone who for a fair bit has been (and will continue to be) involved with anarchist politics, I fucking hate the anarchist "scene".


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## Larry Noppius (Mar 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do they mean pseudo not sudo? The latter being a meth ingredient.
> 
> Anyway who are who?



I thought it was the sudo command in linux that was meant. Using sudo in linux basically gives you admin privileges over the system. It kind of fits, "authoritarian sudo" in the sense of trying to take over the system by granting oneself admin privileges.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 12, 2020)

Can everyone stop using impenetrable slang and posting stupid videos please.


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## Larry Noppius (Mar 12, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Speaking as someone who for a fair bit has been (and will continue to be) involved with anarchist politics, I fucking hate the anarchist "scene".



Join the nihilists, we have cookies and none of that sudo anarchist bullshit.


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## belboid (Mar 12, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> we have cookies


so much for opposing the surveillance state!


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## Rhyddical (Mar 13, 2020)

RTWL, I'm a 100% down for people respecting the house rules of the place they are in.
Y'all drink, fart n smoke, guests can make the choice to come in or not, don't for a moment think telling people to jog on if they don't like the nature of your space is authoritarian at all.

It's the same thing with not having transphobes in our space.
Always respect the house rules even if you disgree with them, I used to visit a squat where they added milk into tea first like fucking heathens...... but it's their gaff.

We don't want bigots, we don't want racists, we don't want misogynists around ours event. I'd hope fellow anarchists could understand and respect this.


Seems some of the hostile manner here is the projection of this "sudo anarcho neo liberal authorianisn etc etc" lot onto the bookfair becuase we aim to provide a space in which our guests, stalls and attendees arn't confronting with bigots who seek to undermine their very existence.

The two ain't the same and maybe give us the benefit of the doubt before making the assumption coz frankly impliying that we're in any way authoritarian for not welcoming bigots, right wingers and all manner of assorted wallies is frankly fucking trash.

I'm 34, (maybe a baby to some) and I come from the salty mouthed, dark humoured, drinking, smoking, farting and pissing off the wet behind the ears reactionary lot too, I've had the same squat guests and groin at their liberal whinings, my favourite being don't have red and black flags up becuase it looks aggressive and scares people off.

Thing is, there are compromises and there are aspects that need to change in our movement, shit like not tolerating people who spew shite like "cocks in frocks" "trans traps" "jew funded agenda" and "eugenically erasing out gay people" should come naturally to us and yet we Anarchists have allowed it to set in like a rot, conflating it with the perhaps oh so reactionary neo-liberal, labour friendly lot who, like you say, smack of authouritarianism, a sort of rigid pressure to be chase some utopian vision.

We're better than this us or them bullshit and rather than by into these manufactured fears that bookfair is now ran by some semi stalinist mob, maybe assume instead that we're a bunch of comrades who just don't like bigots and think that, like the misogynists and racists before them, transphobes can get to fuck.


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## RTWL (Mar 13, 2020)

Cool. It is simply your authority to impose restrictions on gatherings that is being questioned . You are responding well , yet the 'my way or the highway' attitude to security and the manner in which bigots are dealt with on this thread is  still questionable. 
The dealing with bigots and offenders in generall is somthing I think a lot of people are concerned with. Not weather to deal with them or not , but the manner in which justice is sought, the trail, and the punishment . 
I myself have witnessed a number of kangaroo courts and this is where my concern  arises.
I think this needs a bit of work ... but that is for us all to achieve.
The fact your bothering to reply to some random of teh interwebs does give me hope


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## Rhyddical (Mar 13, 2020)

The manner in which we will be dealing with bigots is not of my personal choosing,  but that of the collective after some very long conversations both internally and with other comrades from across the scene and specifically from other bookfairs. Security is being
 co-ordinated by a primarily woman fronted collective who have history providing such a service in informal and proffesional settings. There will also be security from the venue host as per their insurance for large events tho they will be taking a back step and not really part of events, this is not really an unusual course of affairs really.

I totally understand the concerns around Kangaroo Courts and the like and why people would jump to that conclusion, there has very much been a displacement of nuance and reason for absolutist reactionary positions, not only in Anarchism but across the political spectrum as people are pushed into polorised and vocal positions. The changing face of politics leaving many behind, particularly those of us who grew up a bit rough and ready. The easy conclusion is that of middle class liberals taking control and displacing working class folk, but it's simply not the case... I'd argue not in the wider movement and certainly not in our space.

Truly I rather hope those who disagree with the way we keep our house, choose to respect it, live up to Anarchist values and chose not to slam in to spew abuse at comrades and instead respect the space. I have absolutely no doubt there will be a great many people who feel differently to me on the issue of trans rights who will attend bookfair for all the right reasons , respect the space and maybe even attend some workshops that make them challenge their positions.

I know I write like a tit sometimes but honestly I'm not here for a barny but to touch base with comrades who've perhaps lost faith in the movement and bridge that gap.
Some folk here talk like the kids are their enemy, that they've ruined Anarchism and I think thats a lot of jolly old rot, the last back with memes and stuff is understandable really.

I'd rather we used Bookfair 2020 as a conduit for moving beyond the animosity, the youth could do with learning the leassons of the past and fuck, developing some of the steel and resolve and they can't do that if everyone over thirty is whining about kids today and refusing to shut up about how they don't trust trans women, which for some, is sadly the case.


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## RTWL (Mar 13, 2020)

I think there is a generational gap. Not completely age related but more based on which point and angle you found the movement.

What I would define as your group I belive should be highly commended for the zeal and strength shown pushing trans and anti-abuse agenda . It needed to be done ... I think we all realise that ..... so I am going to get out of the frame of mind of calling you psudo-anarchists , as I now see I was overreacting to the casual manner at which issues were being dismissed. . and the my way or the highway attitude .

*Edit - Yer sorry about this last bit I was at work and not paying enough attention to your posts .*
On that note I would say that the book fair is not your property. You do not own it, we all do . The change in attitude from everyone involved and using consensus to make decisions  (trad anarchism) to ... look we are organising the gig , if you disagree do your own thing -is quite a large one and may be alienating people.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 13, 2020)

It doesn’t really matter what I post here. I’m transphobic, bigoted, reactionary, right-wing, absolutist, misogynistic and over thirty. And that’s on a good day. 

But I’m going to have a go anyway. There is no consensus on this new transgender ideology. To attempt to impose one is not only wrong but futile, and that applies to all political movements. To attempt to silence discussion will only make matters worse. The current organisers of the Bookfair will go merrily on their way siding with one group at the expense of the other, but it will leave many with a bitter taste in their mouth and resentment at the way this issue has been allowed to dominate and divide.


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## Red Sky (Mar 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It doesn’t really matter what I post here. I’m transphobic, bigoted, reactionary, right-wing, absolutist, misogynistic and over thirty. And that’s on a good day.
> 
> But I’m going to have a go anyway. There is no consensus on this new transgender ideology. To attempt to impose one is not only wrong but futile, and that applies to all political movements. To attempt to silence discussion will only make matters worse. The current organisers of the Bookfair will go merrily on their way siding with one group at the expense of the other, but it will leave many with a bitter taste in their mouth and resentment at the way this issue has been allowed to dominate and divide.



Not only no consensus, but no realistic path to achieving one bar unconditional surrender  of one side or the other.


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## RTWL (Mar 14, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> I totally understand the concerns around Kangaroo Courts and the like and why people would jump to that conclusion, there has very much been a displacement of nuance and reason for absolutist reactionary positions, not only in Anarchism but across the political spectrum as people are pushed into polorised and vocal positions. The changing face of politics leaving many behind, particularly those of us who grew up a bit rough and ready. The easy conclusion is that of middle class liberals taking control and displacing working class folk, but it's simply not the case... I'd argue not in the wider movement and certainly not in our space.



This is the crux . Who is it who is pushing the polarization ? Gaslighting ? Raising the adrenaline levels.  I suppose on one side you have genuine bigots that have been called out defending their narrative , and the other you have a reactionary zeal not seen since the `scum manifesto` thing.  

As I said earlier I think the zeal was justified to spearhead the issue, but due to it`s success (partly aided by the fact that neo-liberalism does not hinder gender criticism and id-pol stuff like it does anti-war/class politics ) it seems to have gone a bit wrong.

You say



> The easy conclusion is that of middle class liberals taking control and displacing working class folk, but it's simply not the case... I'd argue not in the wider movement and certainly not in our space.



So I guess I would like to know what you think is



> leaving many behind, particularly those of us who grew up a bit rough and ready



BTW this does not come under your duties to book fair really. After reading what you posted properly and having a think about it, as long as your process has been consensus based I have no gripes whatsoever so apologies far the last bit of last post edited in above


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2020)

RTWL said:


> ...as long as your process has been consensus based I have no gripes whatsoever


It’s easy to get consensus if you exclude anyone who disagrees with you and then label them as the spawn of Satan, or whatever.


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## RTWL (Mar 14, 2020)

That is a good point  :/


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## Athos (Mar 14, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Can everyone stop using impenetrable slang and posting stupid videos please.


Ok boomer.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2020)

Athos said:


> Ok boomer.


I’m Gen X, but I agree with Fozzie Bear


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s easy to get consensus if you exclude anyone who disagrees with you and then label them as the spawn of Satan, or whatever.


Labelling them the spawn of Satan makes them sound much more exciting than they are


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## Athos (Mar 14, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m Gen X, but I agree with Fozzie Bear



So do I.  But I'm trying to be down with kids.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2020)

Athos said:


> So do I.  But I'm trying to be down with kids.


It’s about as convincing as I’d be.


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## RTWL (Mar 14, 2020)

who are they though? ... 





> those of us who grew up a bit rough and ready



I mean... in my experience, at the coalface of the movement are those who have felt the brutal oppression of capital. Would you call the indigenous resistance to capitalism `a bit rough and ready` ? Yes. I would also call it the majority of effective anti-capital resistance. So .... we/you might need them/us?

Check out Amilio Avila; Mexican revolutionary, I bet they were a bit rough round the edges.  Amelio Robles Ávila - Wikipedia


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## brogdale (Mar 14, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> We’re old, mate. It’s a brand new world.


Me...literally every time the eldest takes me out in Brighton...for the 1st half hour anyway...after I've had a couple, I'm fine


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## Rhyddical (Mar 14, 2020)

In my honest opinion, we need each other.
The hardy and the soft hearted.
The tradies and the students.
The militant and the academic.
Those who look beyond social ills to direct their energies towards fighting class oppression, and those who dive into the minutia details and seek to eradicate every minor element of social heirarchial and oppression.

In many ways I think the arguements over the word "cunt" are a a wonderful example of this, an array of positions with die hard absolutist extremes. the argument itself for some a diversion and distraction, for others a noble struggle against misogyny/liberalism depending on your perspective.

What ticks me right off tho here is the way in which we as a community of revolutionary anarchists have allowed a aspect of outright bigotry become so obfuscated with the hardy folk vs liberal absolutists, like standing against overt abuse is in some how realted to more zealous attempts to forward some utopian vison. I hear the same things from some American comrades around the BLM movement amongst other things and it smacks of class reductionism and woeful ignorance of the struggles of others, on the otherside of the coin you have a rabid IdPol crowd who reduce everything down to their chosen aspect of oppression and act much in the same shitty manner.

This thread is rampant with it, our decision not to welcome transphobic bigots dismissed as idpol, liberalism or sudo anarchist authoritarianism ;p
Nah, we just have no time for transphobes, much as we have no time for racists.

Thankfully we don't have to explain why we won't be offering The Hundred Hands a stall.

We don't own bookfair, you are right, but we have become the custodians of the event and we're trying to steer it into a model which not only reflects the current movement but is accessable to all (much as the previous crew did). We've taken on some more specific distinctions around bigotry yes, and noted people that arn't welcome, but this is nothing new, every bookfair collective since day dot has done this. We're not going to be micro managing the event, nor even leading it's security (leaving that to a anarchistic community who have stepped up). Our job on the day will be getting the tables out, keepin the workshops on schedule and cleaning up the mess the following day.

I'm sure we'll make mistakes along the way, it would of been nice if the previous collective were more comradely and stepped in to help us fill in their shoes, and provide sage like lessons from their wealth of experiance but they for whatever reason felt unable to do this, so we're probably going to have a few misteps, not only this year but next year and the one after, we're just some comrades taking on a whole new skillset while you know, doing revolutionary shit and suriviving capitalism like everyone else. It's been pretty fun so far but when it turns out we underbooked chairs or something, and people get salty over nothing, I'll probably feel otherwise hahah


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## Athos (Mar 14, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Nah, we just have no time for transphobes, much as we have no time for racists.


No anarchists have time for transphobes.  The real issue is your exercise of power over anachists who disagree with your definition of 'transphobe'.


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## Serge Forward (Mar 14, 2020)

Not only the definition but how to deal with those so defined, while others might see possible grey areas. Let's face it, not even trans folk agree on who is/is not a transphobe, never mind their 'allies' in the shouty anarchist scene.

Point is, how exactly do those of us with revolutionary politics come together to fight against capitalism, the state, without kicking off at each other over whi is/isn't a transphobe. It needs understanding from all sides, not simple attack attack attack.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Not only the definition but how to deal with those so defined, while others might see possible grey areas. Let's face it, not even trans folk agree on who is/is not a transphobe, never mind their 'allies' in the shouty anarchist scene.
> 
> Point is, how exactly do those of us with revolutionary politics come together to fight against capitalism, the state, without kicking off at each other over whi is/isn't a transphobe. It needs understanding from all sides, not simple attack attack attack.


I think you’ll find that none of your nuance counts for anything. The fact that large numbers of women reject these new definitions of gender counts for nothing as well. There is only one version of reality and if anyone questions it they are transphobic bigots, no space for debate or free discussion. Depressing.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Not only the definition but how to deal with those so defined, while others might see possible grey areas. Let's face it, not even trans folk agree on who is/is not a transphobe, never mind their 'allies' in the shouty anarchist scene.
> 
> Point is, how exactly do those of us with revolutionary politics come together to fight against capitalism, the state, without kicking off at each other over whi is/isn't a transphobe. It needs understanding from all sides, not simple attack attack attack.


You could just treat everyone as human


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You could just treat everyone as human


Do gender critical feminists not count as human anymore?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Do gender critical feminists not count as human anymore?


they're included in the everyone i mentioned in my last post. As you might expect.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they're included in the everyone i mentioned in my last post. As you might expect.


So maybe the slogan should be “trans-women are human”. No-one would object to that


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> So maybe the slogan should be “trans-women are human”. No-one would object to that


I wouldn't be so confident


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 14, 2020)

Anyway after all this won't it probably be off now


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## Rhyddical (Mar 15, 2020)

"it needs understand from all sides"

There are people out there who are campaigning on the premise that trans people are mentally ill people who you should fear cause they'll probably rape you in the toilets and others who forward the idea that trans politics is some eugenics programme to wipe out gay people.

If those people don't fit your definition of transphobe then that's your malfunction.

We have no interest in petitioning for the understanding of such bigots and we do not expect the victims of abuse at their hands to "understand" them either.


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## Rhyddical (Mar 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anyway after all this won't it probably be off now




I take it that is a reference to Covid 19? 
Bookfair 2020 is in October, quite some time away and almost certainly the virus will have diminished by then regardless of what happens these next few weeks. We will ofcourse monitor the situation and take the appropriate action.


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## Serge Forward (Mar 15, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> "it needs understand from all sides"
> 
> There are people out there who are campaigning on the premise that trans people are mentally ill people who you should fear cause they'll probably rape you in the toilets and others who forward the idea that trans politics is some eugenics programme to wipe out gay people.
> 
> ...


Of course the people you're talking about are transphobes! No one is disagreeing with that. The problem is, all sorts of people are being labelled as transphobes when they are clearly not, people who would be horrified at the things you correctly say constitutes transphobia.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> "it needs understand from all sides"
> 
> There are people out there who are campaigning on the premise that trans people are mentally ill people who you should fear cause they'll probably rape you in the toilets and others who forward the idea that trans politics is some eugenics programme to wipe out gay people.
> 
> ...



Yes, they're transphobes.  I don't think any anarchist would deny that. The disagreement is around far less clear cut cases. In your view, does 'transphobe' accurately describe a woman who doesn't believe that trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 15, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> If those people don't fit your definition of transphobe then that's your malfunction.


One of the problems here is precisely that of definition. The new transgender ideology is not accepted (yet?) by an awful lot of people. What defines a woman? What defines a man? What does trans mean, in detail? 

There is no agreement on these and many other questions relating to these issues. Rhyddical lumps together anyone with clearly transphobic views with people who are simply more cautious. I could do the same and lump all trans people in with those who chant “kill all terfs” and similar. But I’m not going to do that, because that would be unproductive and simplistic.

If self-Id means automatically accepting what someone says as being true, can you not see that many women, in particular, are uneasy with that? Because, after all, people can lie, be mistaken, hallucinate, change their minds, say things they don’t mean for a whole heap of reasons. Some men, a minority, can go to some lengths to abuse or attack women. I can fully understand why women might be uneasy or scared. 

So there are some fundamental philosophical and ideological discussions to be had, which are being shut down before most people have even heard of the issue. And there are some practical, day-to-day matters which are not even being aired because of an atmosphere of intimidation.


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## Rhyddical (Mar 15, 2020)

Here is the thing tho, this "all sorts of people are being labelled transphobes" animosity is being levelled at anyone who says "no transphobes". There is a presumption of "sudo anarchist authoritarianism" or "neo liberalism" that is really unbecoming. We don't demand 56 pages of sspecifics and repitions with "no racists" and "no homophobes" Tho if I remember my history, we used too, and we all know back in the old days people used to gripe that they were "distractionss" and casual bigotry was much more accepted. 

Mind you "all sorts of people are labelled nazis" even when they ain't, they just love Britain innit.

It is an issue in our politics that we sometimes apply blanket banners calls instead of nuance, however sometimes, when people are facing brutal hostility and abuse we cannot afford the nuance.

Thus, people who parrot the talking point of racists and bigots, get dismissed summarily.
Is it perfect? no. , but it's sure as shit understandable.

Our definition of Transphobes has been given numerous times and we've stated several times that pretty much everyone is welcome provided they respect the space and yet we still have these accusations levelled against us, manufactured entierly our of a reactionary fear that the "liberal authoritarian/IdPol" lot are taking over.

Maybe take "no transphobes" with than merit you do "no racists", trust your comrades not to be banning everyone arbitarily, and think maybe for a moment, we actually know what we're talking about. We're not mass banning anyone, even those who have flown a the union jack, thought the royal wedding was nice or even shock horror secretly worry that they might be "trapped" by a trans women. Respect the space, come along and encounter new and strange ideals like solidarity and how to not be a bigot. Afterall, TBH for me the bookfair is less about providing a shopping day for Anarchos that getting the curious along to see what this whole, no gods,no mastars malarky is about.


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## RTWL (Mar 15, 2020)

I would be interested to know if any dissenters have attended book fair meetings and could testify to the level of consensus being reached . Rhyddical has already mentioned that 


> The manner in which we will be dealing with bigots is not of my personal choosing,  but that of the collective after some very long conversations both internally and with other comrades from across the scene and specifically from other bookfairs.



I am assuming these meetings have had at least some level of consensus, but I have a suspicion due to the amount of grumpy anarchists about that not a satisfactory level has been reached... mainly around the justice system currently being deployed . I mean ... crime and punishment .... it is a big and complex issue!


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> Yes, they're transphobes.  I don't think any anarchist would deny that.


Hurray!  No argument about Helen Steel then.




> The disagreement is around far less clear cut cases. In your view, does 'transphobe' accurately describe a woman who doesn't believe that trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?


you love this 'argument'  Only problem with it is that I dont know of any organisation that makes any such claim. There may be the odd individual, you can find all sorts of fuckwit on twitter, but there isn't one trans rights organisation that does so.  It almost as if you were setting up an impossible task so that people were bound to fail!  But that cant be right, cos only those making excuses for bigots do that.


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## RTWL (Mar 15, 2020)

I should imagine you would need high quality consensus to convict somebody of a serious crime, and therefore there should be punishment laid out for false accusations.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> you love this 'argument'  Only problem with it is that I dont know of any organisation that makes any such claim.



Perhaps ask Rhyddical whether him and his group thinks women who don't think trans women are women are transphobes.  Because it seems to me he's ducking the question.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> Perhaps ask Rhyddical whether him and his group thinks women who don't think trans women are women are transphobes.  Because it seems to me he's ducking the question.


like you are now?


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> like you are now?



What question am I ducking?


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> What question am I ducking?


what trans rights organisations actually demand that 'trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?'


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> what trans rights organisations actually demand that 'trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?'



It wasn't originally phrased as a question.  But I'm happy to answer:  None, to my knowledge. So what?  My question was whether that is the new bookfair's position.  While we're at it, what's yours?  Is it transphobic to say that?  What about women whose definition of their own sex does not encompass trans women?


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> It wasn't originally phrased as a question.  But I'm happy to answer:  None, to my knowledge. So what?  My question was whether that is the new bookfair's position.  While we're at it, what's yours?  Is it transphobic to say that?  What about women whose definition of their own sex does not encompass trans women?


So you agree you are setting up a false position which is all but impossible to meet. Something you have done on thread after thread, not just restricted to the bookfair.   How utterly dishonest. you have no interest in coming to any wide agreement.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> So you agree you are setting up a false position which is all but impossible to meet.



No, not at all.  I'm trying to understand the bookfair's position (but Rhyddical is ducking the question, as you have those in my last post).  What false position do you think I'm setting up?


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> what trans rights organisations actually demand that 'trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?'



Surely that's what the whole row is about?.  What else could "Transwomen are women" mean?


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## Serge Forward (Mar 15, 2020)

There are people on both sides who see no grey areas and believe nothing is up for discussion. They are not our comrades. No one is supporting such vile transphobes, nor should we be supporting those elements among the trans allies who act like cultists. There are grey areas and there is a discussion to be had, as long as it's in good faith.

As for the idea that the response to racism was treated differently... well, we talked to people within the class, arguments were had, people were convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we worked together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... and that undermined racist attitudes far better than the current shouty finger pointing call out culture ever will.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Surely that's what the whole row is about?.  What else could "Transwomen are women" mean?


that transwomen are legally recognised as women and can, for instance, get a passport stating that. Some object to that because the passport says'Sex' and that cant be changed!!!!!  It would also allow transwomen are allowed access to women's spaces (such as refuges), as long as the staff there did not think it might put anyone else at risk (ie, the same as for any other woman). It wouldn't mean that transwomen _must _be allowed into, say a group for women who have issues around their abortions (tho, of course, most transwomen are very supportive of reproductive rights campaigns as they have an obvious interest in bodily autonomy), just like transwomen don't refuse to have prostate exams. 

To quote Julia Serrano - "The problem isn’t that we (i.e., trans women) refuse to acknowledge any differences, but rather that the trans-women-aren’t-women crowd refuses to acknowledge our many similarities. 

Trans women are women. We may not be “exactly like” cis women, but then again, cis women are not all “exactly like” one another either. But what we do share is that we all identify and move through the world as women. And because of this, we all regularly face sexism. That is what we should be focusing on and working together to challenge. And as I said at the outset, forcing trans women into a separate group that is distinct from cis women does not in any way help achieve feminism’s central goal of ending sexism. In fact, it only serves to undermine our collective cause."


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> But what we do share is that we all identify and move through the world as women.



Identifying as a woman isn't that big a commonality between people who have a different concept of what a woman is.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> Identifying as a woman isn't that big a commonality between people who have a different concept of what a woman is.


thank you for your pointless comment.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> Trans women are women. We may not be “exactly like” cis women, but then again, cis women are not all “exactly like” one another either. But what we do share is that we all identify and move through the world as women. And because of this, we all regularly face sexism. That is what we should be focusing on and working together to challenge. And as I said at the outset, forcing trans women into a separate group that is distinct from cis women does not in any way help achieve feminism’s central goal of ending sexism. In fact, it only serves to undermine our collective cause."


Yours is a valid point of view. Trouble is that not everyone agrees with it. A lot of women don’t agree. You maybe able to persuade most of them given time. But the way the whole debate is currently being treated in the anarchist movement, socialist groups, trades unions, Labour Green and Lib Dem’s, gay and lesbian groups etc is alienating an awful lot of women, some of whom have been activists for a long time. They’re being labelled transphobes for simply refusing to lie down in front of the trans juggernaut. Cut them some slack.


----------



## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yours is a valid point of view. Trouble is that not everyone agrees with it. A lot of women don’t agree. You maybe able to persuade most of them given time. But the way the whole debate is currently being treated in the anarchist movement, socialist groups, trades unions, Labour Green and Lib Dem’s, gay and lesbian groups etc is alienating an awful lot of women, some of whom have been activists for a long time. They’re being labelled transphobes for simply refusing to lie down in front of the trans juggernaut. Cut them some slack.


There are, of course, plenty of cis-women who are uncertain on the question, who actually want to support transwomen but aren't in agreement about everything. They are, of course, people we should have a reasoned discussion with.  But there are those, and sadly there are plenty of them, particularly around the awful WPUK, who will never accept transwomen as women, and who wilfully promulgate lies about trans people and what the 'trans position' is.  They can fuck off.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> There are, of course, plenty of cis-women who are uncertain on the question, who actually want to support transwomen but aren't in agreement about everything. They are, of course, people we should have a reasoned discussion with.  But there are those, and sadly there are plenty of them, particularly around the awful WPUK, who will never accept transwomen as women, and who wilfully promulgate lies about trans people and what the 'trans position' is.  They can fuck off.



Are there not a variety of trans positions? There are trans women who speak on WPUK platforms aren't there?


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Are there not a variety of trans positions? There are trans women who speak on WPUK platforms aren't there?


absolutely - that's why I put 'trans position' in inverted commas. And, yes, there are a small number of individual trans women who support WPUK. But there were always small numbers of non-white people speaking on EDL demos as well. 

No trans organisation supports the idea that trans womens experiences must be considered _exactly the same_ as cis-women's experiences though. It's a false position promoted so as to create a demand that can never be met.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> ... sadly there are plenty of them, particularly around the awful WPUK, who will never accept transwomen as women, and who wilfully promulgate lies about trans people and what the 'trans position' is.



There are those who will never accept that transwomen are women, but who do not promulgate lies about trans people.  How (if at all) do you propose engaging with them?  Are they all necessarily transphobes?


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> absolutely - that's why I put 'trans position' in inverted commas. And, yes, there are a small number of individual trans women who support WPUK. But there were always small numbers of non-white people speaking on EDL demos as well.
> 
> No trans organisation supports the idea that trans womens experiences must be considered _exactly the same_ as cis-women's experiences though. It's a false position promoted so as to create a demand that can never be met.



That's certainly a far less militant position than I've been confronted with in my local movement (although the casual elision of "Terfs" with fascists or nationalists is always irritating)

What do you think of this?









						Letter to my feminist friends
					






					lettertofeministfriends.wordpress.com


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## smokedout (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> That's certainly a far less militant position than I've been confronted with in my local movement (although the casual elision of "Terfs" with fascists or nationalists is always irritating)
> 
> What do you think of this?
> 
> ...



Well it links to Fair Play For Women (FPFW) for a start who have called for shop assistants to ask to see the birth certificates of those whose sex at birth is unclear before admitting them to changing rooms.  

I think it's really important to understand that FPFW, Womans Place and others are not just campaigning against Self ID.  They are campaigning for bathroom bills of some sort and removal of the rights trans people have had for decades.  Rights which have not be shown to harm women and which are vital for trans people to participate in society in safety and dignity.  This is the moderate position that trans people are being asked to accept without protest or complaint.  No-one, or barely anyone, gives a shit whether gender critical feminists think trans women are women or not, or whether they believe humans can change sex.  Trans people are pissed off at an attack on rights which have been shown to cause no harm being mounted on the left alongside the continual drip of misinformation which is generating very real hatred of trans people in society.  Perhaps if gender critical anarchists and radicals at least  accepted what this fight is about instead of loading it with GC straw men then this conversation would be less fraught.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> That's certainly a far less militant position than I've been confronted with in my local movement (although the casual elision of "Terfs" with fascists or nationalists is always irritating)
> 
> What do you think of this?
> 
> ...


I totally get that the Terfs/fascists elision is annoying.  But I also totally get why it is made. When trans women are denied their womanhood, of course they will feel they are being denied their very essence, their very selves, and will see that position as specifically _anti-them, _as wanting them destroyed - and in a few cases, they are quite right.

IN terms of that piece, well It's full of rubbish, putting forward the false positions that no one really makes.

In 1 it says ' no circumstances where a distinction could be drawn between natal women and trans women ' - but that is just plain false. See not just the Serrano piece I mentioned above, but the very existence of the terms trans and cis. They are there because of the recognition that of course there are some differences between trans and cis women (as their are amongst cis women). It is not denying any difference at all.  Likewise the supposed argument that gender _isn't _a social construct.  I have never heard anyone say such a thing, in fact it is the opposite argument that is normally made - the 'sex; is still a social construct!  You may well disagree with tat, m but it is a completely different argument. 

In 2, she says 'For some though – it could be a product of a patriarchal culture that is leading her to hate her body. Or it could be other issues such as trauma, mental health issues leading to body dysphoria interpreted by the girl as gender dysphoria, it could have some of the same roots as cutting does.' - but no one disagrees with that.  These thinsg must be discussed with young people, openly and without prejudice in either direction.  The idea that GIDS clinics tell people 'yes you are definitely a trans, no other possibilities exist' just isn't true. 

3 - while there might (as it well accepted within current law, and within the parameters of the GRA) well be circumstances in which pre-op trans women are excluded from some women's support groups, it should not be a default position of any group.  Where would the trans women who have suffered from sexual violence go for support?  Figures indicate they are assaulted at roughly the same rates as cis-women, so they need support.  But in most places, certainly outside of major cities, they aren't going to be enough people to actually run a group. So should they be left out?  And, looking back, some women have had issues with lesbians joining such groups, how would you deal with them?  Or with racist women who thought 'all blacks behave like that'?

4 - yes, reproduction is/was the basis of women's oppression, but it by no means restricted by that. That is also the root of gay oppression, condemning those who do not fit into the 'appropriate' categories. Much of it is about assumptions about sex/gender/reproduction. Women don't become unoppressed when they aren't able to have children.

I'm afraid i think it is one of those articles which is trying to look all supportive, but actually repeats a lot of those old lies.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I think it's really important to understand that FPFW, Womans Place and others are not just campaigning against Self ID.  They are campaigning for bathroom bills of some sort and removal of the rights trans people have had for decades.



Are they?  Because that doesn't appear to be one of their campaign goals from the website of either organisation.


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## smokedout (Mar 15, 2020)

_



			“The law must be strengthened to ensure that all women who want or need single sex spaces (including toilets, health provision accommodation, prisons, sports, sexual and domestic violence services) are able to access them without resorting to extraordinary measures. “

“The law needs to be tightened up and it needs to be enforced; enforced to ensure that female-only spaces and services in this country are protected. Business and organisations should face fines or legal action if they knowingly, and deliberately flout the law.”
		
Click to expand...

_








						The law must work for women - Woman's Place UK
					

This is the speech that Lucy Masoud gave at the London meeting, A Woman’s Place is Resolute. She spoke on our second demand. The law must be strengthened to ensure that all women who want or need single sex spaces (including toilets, health provision accommodation, prisons, sports, sexual and...




					womansplaceuk.org
				






> To uphold your single-sex changing room policy you can reserve the right for staff to discreetly ask for additional information before using the service you are providing. The only legal document that confirms someones legal sex is a *birth certificate*. All other common forms of ID, including passport and driving licence, can now be updated on request to show someone’s self-declared gender identity so can no longer be used for the purposes of confirming legal sex class.
> 
> In a tiny number of cases (less than 5000 in the UK) a transgender person may have changed the sex classification on their birth certificate. Whilst it is lawful to exclude this person from a female-only changing room on the grounds of gender reassignment (part 7 Section 28) it is virtually impossible to implement this legal exception in practice. This is because the birth certificate of someone who has legally reassigned their sex to female is indistinguishable from the birth certificate of someone who was born female. There is nothing additional that staff can ask to see that would confirm someone was actually born the sex written on their birth certificate and thus confirm their eligibility to enter a female-only changing room.
> 
> ...











						Advice to service providers about female-only changing rooms • Fair Play For Women
					

Female-only changing rooms are lawful This guidance highlights the relevant sections in UK law to help service providers who offer changing room facilities to their customers. There is little in the way of established case law for businesses to rely on, so instead this guide sets out the legal...




					fairplayforwomen.com


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> Are they?  Because that doesn't appear to be one of their campaign goals from the website of either organisation.


completely untrue - 'Prisons, domestic violence refuges, healthcare, dormitories, *changing rooms, toilets,* sport. We need to keep them single-sex.' Our beliefs • Fair Play For Women

Or we can just hear from Nicola Williams, their current head (who replaced someone who even FPFW thought was too transphobic) who said at one FPFW meeting - “Tear [the trans rights] movement to pieces, pull it apart, vandalise it, destabilise it. FUCK. IT. UP.”


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

On toilets, I am amazed they cannot see how such a move would be bad for (cis) women, especially the butch lesbians they say are being erased.  My fairly flat chested and asexual looking, sister has been challenged several times already.  It always happened to a certain extent, but has grown significantly over the last couple of years. And I am sure we can all imagine the scenarios in all sorts of places where women are told to prove their sex by groups of arsehole men before being allowed to piss.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> The law must work for women - Woman's Place UK
> 
> 
> This is the speech that Lucy Masoud gave at the London meeting, A Woman’s Place is Resolute. She spoke on our second demand. The law must be strengthened to ensure that all women who want or need single sex spaces (including toilets, health provision accommodation, prisons, sports, sexual and...
> ...



Ensuring that women with a genuine need for single-sex spaces continue to have access to them doesn't seem unreasonable, or to be a significant change from the current situation (through the exemption in the Equality Act).  I think you're exaggerating.


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## smokedout (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> completely untrue - 'Prisons, domestic violence refuges, healthcare, dormitories, *changing rooms, toilets,* sport. We need to keep them single-sex.' Our beliefs • Fair Play For Women
> 
> Or we can just hear from Nicola Williams, their current head (who replaced someone who even FPFW thought was too transphobic) who said at one FPFW meeting - “Tear [the trans rights] movement to pieces, pull it apart, vandalise it, destabilise it. FUCK. IT. UP.”



To be fair it was Miranda Yardley who said that.  Nic Williams just applauded:


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> To be fair it was Miranda Yardley who said that.  Nic Williams just applauded:



aah, my deepest apologies to the applauder.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> Or we can just hear from Nicola Williams, their current head (who replaced someone who even FPFW thought was too transphobic) who said at one FPFW meeting - “Tear [the trans rights] movement to pieces, pull it apart, vandalise it, destabilise it. FUCK. IT. UP.”



Can you provide a source for this, please (preferably one that shows us the original wording you've substituted in the square brackets, please?


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

see above


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> To be fair it was Miranda Yardley who said that.  Nic Williams just applauded:




Why replace 'this movement' with 'the trans rights movement'?  Without any context, it's not possible to tell what movement Yardley was speaking about; whether it was, say, trans rights generally (unlikely from a trans woman), or the movement which tries to silence women with violence and threats of violence. There's a significant difference.  Do you have the rest of Yardley's speech?


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## RTWL (Mar 15, 2020)

It would be appropriate to hear what is said within context before making a judgment especially concerning the accusation that this is evidence of violence against trans people... not the organization  .


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## smokedout (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> On toilets, I am amazed they cannot see how such a move would be bad for (cis) women, especially the butch lesbians they say are being erased.  My fairly flat chested and asexual looking, sister has been challenged several times already.  It always happened to a certain extent, but has grown significantly over the last couple of years. And I am sure we can all imagine the scenarios in all sorts of places where women are told to prove their sex by groups of arsehole men before being allowed to piss.



The potential for homophobic bullying and harassment is shocking.  As is the burden on shop workers who will be expected to guess what genitals someone was born with or their employer's could face a fine should WPUK get their way.  So hyper-vigilence is likely to be encouraged.  It's breath-takingly authoritarian and will only  serve to socially punish gender non-conformity.  I find it astonishing that people on the left support the kind of laws that go beyond even those the most right wing bible belt republicans wanted and which would make life a misery for not just trans women, but trans men, intersex people and anyone gender non-conforming.  And for what, to stop problems that don't exist, and haven't happened even in countries where full Self ID has been introduced.


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> I totally get that the Terfs/fascists elision is annoying.  But I also totally get why it is made. When trans women are denied their womanhood, of course they will feel they are being denied their very essence, their very selves, and will see that position as specifically _anti-them, _as wanting them destroyed - and in a few cases, they are quite right.
> 
> IN terms of that piece, well It's full of rubbish, putting forward the false positions that no one really makes.
> 
> ...



Really? I thought it was a pretty reasonable olive branch and perhaps the basis for the beginning of a reasonable conversation on the subject.


----------



## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> The potential for homophobic bullying and harassment is shocking.  As is the burden on shop workers who will be expected to guess what genitals someone was born with or their employer's could face a fine should WPUK get their way.  So hyper-vigilence is likely to be encouraged.  It's breath-takingly authoritarian and will only  serve to socially punish gender non-conformity.  I find it astonishing that people on the left support the kind of laws that go beyond even those the most right wing bible belt republicans wanted and which would make life a misery for not just trans women, but trans men, intersex people and anyone gender non-conforming.  And for what, to stop problems that don't exist, and haven't happened even in countries where full Self ID has been introduced.



I would tend to agree with this.  But, the problem is, if you accept that in some circumstances women are entitled to single-sex spaces*, how do you practically bring that about.

* Do you, by the way?


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Really? I thought it was a pretty reasonable olive branch and perhaps the basis for the beginning of a reasonable conversation on the subject.


well, we can use it as a starting point, for sure.  But that means pointing out the things, in every section, which are palpably false.  Maybe the author is entirely genuine and doesn't realise these points are false, many of them have been repeated as such for so long, but at this juncture in the debate it is a _bit _hard to believe.  I mean, on that first point especially, I can't believe that there are many trans rights proponents who argues such a thing (that gender isn't a social construct) at all. And that's her _starting point_.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> I would tend to agree with this.  But, the problem is, if you accept that in some circumstances women are entitled to single-sex spaces*, how do you practically bring that about.
> 
> * Do you, by the way?


When?  There might be cases where, in order to get the support they need, individual women need a space without anyone with penises (I'm assuming you're allowing post-operative trans women into single sex spaces) for a certain time.  But when could that be extended to a general policy?  In a way that doesn't exclude cis-women with, say, male children they support.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> I can't believe that there are many trans rights proponents who argues such a thing (that gender isn't a social construct) at all.



Insofar as they suggest 'gender identity' is innate, surely that is saying that gender isn't entirely socially constructed?


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

I see you added the word 'entirely' there (amongst other things)


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> well, we can use it as a starting point, for sure.  But that means pointing out the things, in every section, which are palpably false.  Maybe the author is entirely genuine and doesn't realise these points are false, many of them have been repeated as such for so long, but at this juncture in the debate it is a _bit _hard to believe.  I mean, on that first point especially, I can't believe that there are many trans rights proponents who argues such a thing (that gender isn't a social construct) at all. And that's her _starting point_.



As I understand it the piece was written three years ago in anticipation of the oncoming shit storm.

But doesn't the idea of innate gender identity directly contradict the idea of gender as a social construct?

Underneath all the stuff about prisons and toilets I've found (in conversation) a deep disturbance in cis women at the idea of the existence of the female brain..


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> When?  There might be cases where, in order to get the support they need, individual women need a space without anyone with penises (I'm assuming you're allowing post-operative trans women into single sex spaces) for a certain time.  But when could that be extended to a general policy?  In a way that doesn't exclude cis-women with, say, male children they support.



So, in that situation when an individual women needs a 'penis free' space, how would you achieve that in practice?

I'm not arguing for a wide, general application, btw.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> I see you added the word 'entirely' there (amongst other things)



The point remains.  If you believe in innate gender, you're saying it isn't socially constructed. It can't be both.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> As I understand it the piece was written three years ago in anticipation of the oncoming shit storm.
> 
> But doesn't the idea of innate gender identity directly contradict the idea of gender as a social construct?
> 
> Underneath all the stuff about prisons and toilets I've found (in conversation) a deep disturbance in cis women at the idea of the existence of the female brain..


Fair enough, re the first para.  On the second, I think that, despite the term - a term not created by trans people - transwomen think of themselves as female and women. Saying it is innate may sometimes be seen as a useful shorthand, a way of explaining complex experiences in a single soundbitey way, but its an overly simplistic and reductionist one. Partly is there because 'sexual identity' isn't related to how you feel about your genitals.  As an argument, I think it's mere sophistry.

As for 'female brain' argument, again I think it is sometimes a simplification to get a general idea across, but there are also sexually dimorphic brain regions, and there is _some _evidence that in those regions trans women more closely resemble cis women than cis men. But it is far from clear. It isn't (there will be a few odd exceptions, no doubt) that there is an argument that the two are completely and fundamentally different.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> So, in that situation when an individual women needs a 'penis free' space, how would you achieve that in practice?
> 
> I'm not arguing for a wide, general application, btw.


On a case by case basis depending upon the needs of the individuals involved.  Just like happens now in all sorts of ways, not just relating to trans people.


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> Fair enough, re the first para.  On the second, I think that, despite the term - a term not created by trans people - transwomen think of themselves as female and women. Saying it is innate may sometimes be seen as a useful shorthand, a way of explaining complex experiences in a single soundbitey way, but its an overly simplistic and reductionist one. Partly is there because 'sexual identity' isn't related to how you feel about your genitals.  As an argument, I think it's mere sophistry.
> 
> As for 'female brain' argument, again I think it is sometimes a simplification to get a general idea across, but there are also sexually dimorphic brain regions, and there is _some _evidence that in those regions trans women more closely resemble cis women than cis men. But it is far from clear. It isn't (there will be a few odd exceptions, no doubt) that there is an argument that the two are completely and fundamentally different.



The idea of sex based differences in brain structure (and therefore capacity and aptitude) is obviously a challenge to feminism's primary argument, that there could and should be equality between the sexes.


----------



## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> On a case by case basis depending upon the needs of the individuals involved.  Just like happens now in all sorts of ways, not just relating to trans people.



So, in the individual case of a particular woman who has a legitimate need to be in a single-sex space, how would you guarantee the sex of the other users of that space?  I don't like the idea of checking birth certificates, but it's hard to see any other way, without effectively abandoning the single-sex exemption.


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## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> The idea of sex based differences in brain structure (and therefore capacity and aptitude) is obviously a challenge to feminism's primary argument, that there could and should be equality between the sexes.


not really.  You would also have to show that any differences made any difference. All humans' brains are slightly different, that doesn't affect the notion that we could and should be treated equally.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> Saying it is innate may sometimes be seen as a useful shorthand, a way of explaining complex experiences in a single soundbitey way, but its an overly simplistic and reductionist one.



Then set out in terms as complex and non-reductionist as you like whether gender is innate or socially constructed.


----------



## belboid (Mar 15, 2020)

Athos said:


> So, in the individual case of a particular woman who has a legitimate need to be in a single-sex space, how would you guarantee the sex of the other users of that space?  I don't like the idea of checking birth certificates, but it's hard to see any other way, without effectively abandoning the single-sex exemption.


birth certificates won't help if a GRAlike law is passed, that would be the point of it.  You (or appropriate people with relevant experience) would have to talk to both (all) parties and use their judgement about who should join what group, etc.  Just like they do now.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> birth certificates won't help if a GRAlike law is passed, that would be the point of it.



Which is part of the resistance to people being able to change their birth certificate more easily.



belboid said:


> You (or appropriate people with relevant experience) would have to talk to both (all) parties and use their judgement about who should join what group, etc.  Just like they do now.



Under your system, if, when speaking to people, they lie about/don't reveal their biological sex, you can't effectively provide single-sex spaces, even in the most essential cases.  Can you see why that's something that bothers some women?


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> not really.  You would also have to show that any differences made any difference. All humans' brains are slightly different, that doesn't affect the notion that we could and should be treated equally.



But you're using these supposed differences to give a concrete biological basis to gender identity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Hammer of the Scots Trots,



John Reid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> That's not what I said. By far the largest majority of posters who haven't been banned probably haven't been banned because they already had a position that was congruent with the "community values" and hence were never "threatened" with a ban to change their position.



Most of us have been banned at one time or another. Mostly by editor and his former psychopathic sidekick Crispy , but FridgeMagnet is ban-happy too. Cunts, the lot of 'em.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2020)

RTWL said:


> This kind of smug bullshit does not help you and your little authoritarian neo-liberal sudo anarchists, but keeps in line to the way you handle calling people out (or not handle but fuck up badly!) and your transparent attempts to `own` anarchism . It's like you think you know better than everybody who came before you . Arrogant, ineffective, egotistical, no-solidarity, no class-conciousness(i aint buying your fake shit) .... absolutely useless in ruck ... cultists; thats you.



I hate anarchists that do sudo-ku.


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## smokedout (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> As I understand it the piece was written three years ago in anticipation of the oncoming shit storm.
> 
> But doesn't the idea of innate gender identity directly contradict the idea of gender as a social construct?



Not necessarily.  Innate gender identity could be to do with how we experience our bodies, or some kind of sense of selfhood which isn't yet understood, but which has nothing to do with aptitudes, personality or behaviour.  From a scientific point of view we don't know what gender identity is or how it functions.  What we do know is that something which appears to look like transsexuality, or discordant gender identity is widely observed in many different cultures, that millions of trans people exist and pay a significant social penalty for being trans and that studies on intersex children attempting to negate gender identity have been at times tragic failures.  That suggests there is something going on, something which is no doubt magnified significantly by patriarchy, and which we don't yet understand very well, which isn't unusual because we don;t actually understand brains that well.

But on a more pragmatic note, gendered society is real and 99.99% of the human population plays along.  Even if gender dysphoria is merely an intense discomfort and dislike of the gender role you have been assigned, or a significant attraction to being of the opposite gender role then isn't that something that can, and perhaps should be accommodated?  Cis people flaunt their gender all the time, our entire mainstream culture is largely based on it, and even if we oppose that it only seems to be trans people who are attacked so relentlessly for expressing gender.


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Even if gender dysphoria is merely an intense discomfort and dislike of the gender role you have been assigned, or a significant attraction to being of the opposite gender role then isn't that something that can, and perhaps should be accommodated?



Of course it should (at least to an extent that balances any harm to others).  But that's quite different from requiring people to believe that trans women are women.  I think it's a shame that pushback against the latter has gone further than it should, into pushback against the former. But understandable (as are some of the excesses of the other 'side') in the context of the polarised debate.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Not necessarily.  Innate gender identity could be to do with how we experience our bodies, or some kind of sense of selfhood which isn't yet understood, but which has nothing to do with aptitudes, personality or behaviour.  From a scientific point of view we don't know what gender identity is or how it functions.  What we do know is that something which appears to look like transsexuality, or discordant gender identity is widely observed in many different cultures, that millions of trans people exist and pay a significant social penalty for being trans and that studies on intersex children attempting to negate gender identity have been at times tragic failures.  That suggests there is something going on, something which is no doubt magnified significantly by patriarchy, and which we don't yet understand very well, which isn't unusual because we don;t actually understand brains that well.
> 
> But on a more pragmatic note, gendered society is real and 99.99% of the human population plays along.  Even if gender dysphoria is merely an intense discomfort and dislike of the gender role you have been assigned, or a significant attraction to being of the opposite gender role then isn't that something that can, and perhaps should be accommodated?  Cis people flaunt their gender all the time, our entire mainstream culture is largely based on it, and even if we oppose that it only seems to be trans people who are attacked so relentlessly for expressing gender.



Gender critical types would argue that it's the concept of any gender roles at all that should be scrapped. Thought this was well understood?


----------



## smokedout (Mar 15, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Gender critical types would argue that it's the concept of any gender roles at all that should be scrapped. Thought this was well understood?



Yes but most would recognise the intense pressure gendered society inflicts and so would not condemn a cis woman for wearing make up or perfume, although some of the old school might I grant you.  Trans people arguably suffer from this pressure as much as anyone, and are not just condemned for expressing gender but blamed for gendered society existing.  If the gender critical movement was really interested in destroying gender they would be attacking the fashion and entertainment industries just as viciously as they are trans people. But they rarely get a mention, and that's because the gender critical movement is really an anti-trans movement, not an anti-gender movement, or even a feminist movement anymore, there's been plenty of discussion at the more conservative end of the spectrum about if you even have to be a feminist to be gender critical. The growing number of misogynist male allies who now style themselves as gender critical is testament to that.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 15, 2020)

smokedout said:


> because the gender critical movement is really an anti-trans movement, not an anti-gender movement, or even a feminist movement anymore, there's been plenty of discussion at the more conservative end of the spectrum about if you even have to be a feminist to be gender critical. The growing number of misogynist male allies who now style themselves as gender critical is testament to that.


You’re probably a nice person, so maybe you might reflect a bit more on what you say or imply. Just because people disagree with you does not make them malevolent or malign in some way.

On another note, what do you think Proudhon or Bakunin or Kropotkin or Malatesta or Durrutti or Goldman or any of the other anarchists of note from days gone by would make of all this shit? I think they would be amazed at how pointlessly self-destructive we’ve all become. Why bother with a revolution when you can have a squabble?


----------



## chilango (Mar 16, 2020)

Anyway, to be blunt. By the time it'll be possible to put on the next Bookfair there'll be far more pressing concerns than any of this.


----------



## LDC (Mar 16, 2020)

Yeah, no way will it be on this year.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 16, 2020)

Nah, it'll happen.... on Skype.


----------



## chilango (Mar 16, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Nah, it'll happen.... on Skype.



Oh boomer  all the cool kids are using zoom.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 16, 2020)

Damn you, technology


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Oh boomer  all the cool kids are using zoom.


All the kids are using what now? 

I used to be hip. (Yeah, I know. But I can pretend).


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I need a new hip.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Anyway, to be blunt. By the time it'll be possible to put on the next Bookfair there'll be far more pressing concerns than any of this.



I hope that, in addition to arguing pedantically about The Definition Of What Is A Woman, and who will or will not be welcome at the Bookfair which isn't happening, the men on this thread are also engaging with their local Corvid 19 mutual aid groups.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 16, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I hope that, in addition to arguing pedantically about The Definition Of What Is A Woman, and who will or will not be welcome at the Bookfair which isn't happening, the men on this thread are also engaging with their local Corvid 19 mutual aid groups.



We got a spreadsheet up and running last week, and either phoned or left flyers all residents on our estate with contact info for shopping etc.


----------



## Rhyddical (Mar 16, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> As for the idea that the response to racism was treated differently... well, we talked to people within the class, arguments were had, people were convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we worked together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... and that undermined racist attitudes far better than the current shouty finger pointing call out culture ever will.




I mean I'm sorry you seem not to be aware but trans rights acitivsts and anarchist comrades in general are talking to people within the class, arguments are (rather obviously) being had, people are being convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we are working together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... Just af National Front puppets were excluding from the arguments on race, the bigots at the prominance of transphobic abuse arn't welcome. that is literally the be all and end all of our policy and I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene on a thread which numerous times has had outright transphobia and a scary tolerance for dogwhistles and bigotted talking points that too few of the U75 community seem keen to counter act.

If you aint a prominant bigot well known for atagonism and abuse, even if you have opinions and beliefs we might disagree with, provided you can respect the space and saftey of your anarchist comrades, you are welcome.

Not sure how many times I can repeat this.

Hopefully not going to come back for this talking point again, I'm a busy cat. If you want to learn more about why so many people are calling some of y'all pals bigots and why the science and social reality is on the side of the trans folk, here is some further reading Help! I’ve been called a transphobe! | Reading List – Organise Magazine

Love and Rage x


----------



## Rhyddical (Mar 16, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Are there not a variety of trans positions? There are trans women who speak on WPUK platforms aren't there?



To my knowledge there are a few transexual men and women who ally with WPUK. They are universally know as Transmed / Truscum by others. Essentially they believe that unless you have the operation, take the hormones, and live as a "women" or "man" then you are not a woman or man etc etc. Essentially this means that a women with a penis has to not only go through years of drug therepy, operations and social blah but must also dress and act as a "woman" to earn acceptance. This is why the community in general utilisies the "Trans Gender" and "Gender Non Comforming" nonmenclature.

Trans sexuals are themselves divisive in the anti trans gender scene as some hardliners believe in the "doth tho bleed" or "uterus of GTFO" line or reasoning based in natal womanhood (manhood too? IDK maybe in theory) while others simply demand an adherence to a rigid binary and the rights to know whats in the pants of others, thus allowing post op women into the collective womanhood.

I'm sure someone is going to complain about me summing a complex thing into a couple paragraphs but this is the gist of it and I really don't care to carry on the barny.

So yeah, WPUK do have some trans speakers, but like most of these things, it's a little bit more complecated than that ;p


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Truscum



Nice.


----------



## RTWL (Mar 16, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene



I will break it down .

Pseudo anarchist - somebody who claims to be an anarchist and is in fact not.... could be lunching out the consensus, forgetting about free speech, and what's all this safe-space nonsense about?

Authoritarian - several kangaroo courts I have seen .... and there is always a cocky assurance that they are following some protocol (wot they got off crimethink)  which gives them authority. Travesties of justice I saw them commit ... and the consensus was lacking to say the least. I have also noticed a lot of power hungry in this group which generally leads to an uncomfortable level of competition and lack of solidarity.

Neo-liberal - Concerned only about LGBT, race issues, and idPOL ... the war and the poor can  jog on. Possibly a result of the internalization of the neo-liberal state.

HTH


----------



## RTWL (Mar 16, 2020)

Truscum
(slang, usually  derogatory) A person (often transgender) who adheres to a narrow definition of transgenderism/transsexuality and believes that gender dysphoria is an essential trait.

No mention of militant oppression of other trans people . Why are they `scum` ? As far as I can see they just have different beliefs to you .... so you attack them .


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 16, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I hope that, in addition to arguing pedantically about The Definition Of What Is A Woman, and who will or will not be welcome at the Bookfair which isn't happening, the men on this thread are also engaging with their local Corvid 19 mutual aid groups.



Yep.  There's a rather inactive thread on it over in the Coronavirus section.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 16, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> think maybe for a moment, we actually know what we're talking about.



Says the guy who played biology teacher, proclaimed to have solid evidence of extraterrestrial life, and then tried to back up his claim with a paper which contained nothing of the sort and which he could clearly not understand.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 16, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> They are universally know as Transmed / Truscum by others.



Quite a revealing sentence this.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 16, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene on a thread which numerous times has had outright transphobia and a scary tolerance for dogwhistles and bigotted talking points that too few of the U75 community seem keen to counter act.



Could you give some examples of this "outright transphobia" on this thread? As for the "tolerance for dogwhistles" I'm assuming you're referring to the reason for the exclusion of HS, ie defining the term woman in context of your claim that "transwomen are women"? Are you calling it a "dogwhistle" because you know it trivially refutes your claim? Indeed, the only way for you to not inescapably reach the conclusion that the moon is made of cheese is to use a different definition of the term woman.



> Hopefully not going to come back for this talking point again, I'm a busy cat. If you want to learn more about why so many people are calling some of y'all pals bigots and why the science and social reality is on the side of the trans folk, here is some further reading Help! I’ve been called a transphobe! | Reading List – Organise Magazine



Dude you're a crackpot, even if the science were on your side (interesting how you again substitute "trans folk" in general for _your_ claims) you'd still be the least trustworthy person in deciding it to be so.


----------



## Larry Noppius (Mar 16, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Quite a revealing sentence this.



Why? Because of the name calling or because of the claim to universality?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 16, 2020)

Larry Noppius said:


> Why? Because of the name calling or because of the claim to universality?



It's a hilariously self contradictory mess of a sentence. Which manages to expose that to Rhydiccal only the people on the right side have the right to a "universal" opinion.


----------



## MrSpikey (Mar 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> what trans rights organisations actually demand that 'trans women should have access to all women's spaces, in all circumstances, without any exceptions?'


Stonewall submitted a statement to the Women and Equalities Select Committee on Transgender Equality calling for a review of the Equality Act 2010, including "remov[ing] exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces".


----------



## belboid (Mar 18, 2020)

MrSpikey said:


> Stonewall submitted a statement to the Women and Equalities Select Committee on Transgender Equality calling for a review of the Equality Act 2010, including "remov[ing] exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces".


as indeed noted earlier and responded to at length. That does not equate to 'in *all *circumstances, without *any *exceptions'


----------



## belboid (Mar 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Under your system, if, when speaking to people, they lie about/don't reveal their biological sex, you can't effectively provide single-sex spaces, even in the most essential cases.  Can you see why that's something that bothers some women?


I would do this crazy thing of trusting trained, committed and experienced workers to recognise when someone is not acting in a manner conducive to the good of the group. We don't need strict laws and regulations to map out every possibility. Everyone should, and can, be found a way to be given support. It's an insult to the workers (women in the overwhelming majority) who provide such services to say that they are incapable of making such judgement calls. They already do it most days. 

On a thread about an Anarchist Bookfair, to be demanding ever more stringent and codified rules seems a bit bizarre.  So I'll leave it there.


----------



## Athos (Mar 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> I would do this crazy thing of trusting trained, committed and experienced workers to recognise when someone is not acting in a manner conducive to the good of the group. We don't need strict laws and regulations to map out every possibility.



Admission to single-sex spaces is contingent on sex, not just how someone is acting!  If you belive in effective single-sex spaces (do you, by the way?), it follows that you need an efffective way to establish sex.  Where someone is refusing to disclose their sex, or even lying about it, are you saying that those responsible for those spaces can and should establish sex entirely on looks?  If not, how do you propse they do it?


----------



## belboid (Mar 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Admission to single-sex spaces is contingent on sex, not how someone is acting!  If you belive in effective single-sex spaces (do you, by the way?), it follows that you need an efffective way to establish sex.  Where someone is refusing to disclose their sex, or even lying about it, are you saying that those responsible for those spaces can and should establish sex entirely on looks?  If not, how do you propse they do it?


admission to ALL non-public spaces is contingent on how you are acting. Every single one. No woman, cis or trans, can just rock up to a refuge and demand entry. You are talking utter nonsense. Probably on purpose.  But, as I said, I'm done on this topic on this thread as everyone else has more pressing concerns about the event.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> admission to ALL non-public spaces is contingent on how you are acting. Every single one. No woman, cis or trans, can just rock up to a refuge and demand entry. You are talking utter nonsense. Probably on purpose.  But, as I said, I'm done on this topic on this thread as everyone else has more pressing concerns about the event.


i hear that admission to a prison generally not on a voluntary basis either


----------



## Athos (Mar 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> admission to ALL non-public spaces is contingent on how you are acting. Every single one. No woman, cis or trans, can just rock up to a refuge and demand entry. You are talking utter nonsense. Probably on purpose.  But, as I said, I'm done on this topic on this thread as everyone else has more pressing concerns about the event.



Pure sophistry.

I find it hard to believe you didn't understand what I meant, but have added the word 'just' to the original post, to be certain.

To be clear: Conduct is a necessary condition for entry, but not a sufficient one.  Of course a woman who was acting dangerously wouldn't be admitted, but, also, a man who was acting entirely reasonably wouldn't be admitted.

You can't seriously be suggesting that sex isn't a condition of entry to single sex-spaces.  Can you?

That sex is a condition of entry to single-sex spaces means that, if you believe in effective single-sex spaces (do you, by the way?), you need an effective way to establish sex.  How should that be done (in addition to, rather than instead of, assessing e.g. how someone is acting)?  Visually?  Checking paperwork?

Please don't duck this.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 18, 2020)

what’s good is that we will all have way more time to argue about who can access what spaces when we are on lockdown and the army is on the streets.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> what’s good is that we will all have way more time to argue about who can access what spaces when we are on lockdown and the army is on the streets.


Many of us will never before have had such opportunities for posting


----------



## chilango (Mar 18, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> what’s good is that we will all have way more time to argue about who can access what spaces when we are on lockdown and the army is on the streets.




All compelled to be in our own individual safe spaces until further notice...


----------



## chilango (Mar 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Many of us will never before have had such opportunities for posting



...but you won't be at work


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...but you won't be at work


I'm stíll getting paid, so still posting on the boss's dime


----------



## chilango (Mar 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm stíll getting paid, so still posting on the boss's dime



That's the blitz spirit right there


----------



## imposs1904 (Mar 18, 2020)

Just a PSA: if you survived past Anarchist Bookfairs' at Conway Hall, you can survive the CoronaVirus.

You got this.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 18, 2020)

When there always seemed to be a fight.


----------



## Rhyddical (Mar 19, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> When there always seemed to be a fight.




... and people say we're not trying to live up the traditions of the Anarchist bookfair ;p

I mean the thread only covers one point of contention. Anarchists are a passionate and somewhat over zealous bunch, whatever generation or school you hereld from.
It's part of the reason I love the movement and greatly enjoy the comrades in it, even the ones I'm having a bluey with.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 19, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> When there always seemed to be a fight.



At one point that was always with police


Rhyddical said:


> ... and people say we're not trying to live up the traditions of the Anarchist bookfair ;p
> 
> I mean the thread only covers one point of contention. Anarchists are a passionate and somewhat over zealous bunch, whatever generation or school you hereld from.
> It's part of the reason I love the movement and greatly enjoy the comrades in it, even the ones I'm having a bluey with.



The fight traditionally used to be with the police rather than each other.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> At one point that was always with police
> 
> 
> The fight traditionally used to be with the police rather than each other.


Tbh far more often personal differences rather than ideological or with cops


----------



## Rhyddical (Mar 19, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> At one point that was always with police
> 
> 
> The fight traditionally used to be with the police rather than each other.




While we'd rather the police get their noses out of it, in my experience nothing unifies comrades like remembering who our shared enemy is.

Perhaps by the end of the Corvid 19 crisis we'll all be on better terms and understanding and we'll manage to hold an event with the mutual aid and solidarity of y'all.

We are certainly not the reactionary liberal authoritarians some would paint us, this I can promise 

Hope y'all stay safe these next few weeks! Especially those of you in the big smoke.


----------



## RTWL (Mar 19, 2020)

You to m8e  although I think there is going to be a little more disruption than a few weeks.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2020)

18 more months of this thread 😱


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jun 8, 2020)

Now cancelled until 2021, as has the London Radical Bookfair in August


----------



## deeyo (Jun 11, 2020)

charlie mowbray said:


> Now cancelled until 2021, as has the London Radical Bookfair in August


Sorry to hear this, though not unexpected. Was thinking of going, if i could get some mates to come along. Probably wouldn't have, but you never know..  

been a while. 

Last time i was in london at a political meet was class wars international conference sep -91. That was one of the defining moments of my 'political life', its importance to a young born'n'raised communist-gone-anarchist can't be overestimated. Fuelled some ten years of intense political activity and i got to see blaggers ita and chumbawumba live... (if anyone here was there i hope your alright, remember a brother and sister with a 'place of worship-like' surname, who put us up in hackney and a class war healthworker with a viking-name though i think he was from manchester..)
Rhyddical i wish you and yours all the best arranging lab 2021, and if it comes to mean half as much to some young lefties as cwic 91 meant to me and my mates, then you've done good.

see you at the barricades.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jun 13, 2020)

Thank you for the thoughts.

Bit of a heads up we are going to be hosting a Digital Anarchist Bookfair on October the 17th this year.
Both Stockholm and Montreal have done similar things and closer to home Afest have organised a similar effort.

We've spoken to several organisations already who seem quite keen and feel it's a good alternative given the situation. We'll be issuing a statement with our intentions and hope you all attend and find it useful.

We have been somewhat silent for a while due to the Mutual Aid activities and subsequently BLM needing to occupy our space and efforts however I would expect that we will be ramping up our media and campaign over the summer.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


>



is this happening? looked on the website and doesnt have any info


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> is this happening? looked on the website and doesnt have any info


Reckon it's fallen by the wayside


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> is this happening? looked on the website and doesnt have any info



There is a fair amount of recent stuff on their Twitter and Instagram. I think the plan is still for a weekend of workshops and talks. No programme yet though.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2020)

New website tomorrow appaz-


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2020)

i heard there was a virtual new york anarchist bookfair recently...did anyone log on?




Fozzie Bear said:


> New website tomorrow appaz-



thanks...i think it was slated to happen next weekend the 17th?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2020)

ska invita  Yeah next weekend.

There are a bunch of recordings up from the NYC one. There wasn’t a whole lot that appealed to me and there were a handful of things like “herbalism and state violence” that raised the hackles somewhat.

Plus my appetite for online meetings is pretty much zero as I spend most of the week doing that for work.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2020)

(Grumpy old man emoji)


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2020)

Herbalism and state violence was the talk after DIY bike repair and indigenous genocide, but before the knitting and police torture workshop.


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 10, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Plus my appetite for online meetings is pretty much zero as I spend most of the week doing that for work.


That doesn't sound good. Nicole Rose who presented that 'Herbalism and State Violence' workshop


> is also the author of the book Overcoming Burnout, which is shared with grassroots organisers worldwide to help them prevent or recover from burnout and explore the politics of care and mutual aid.


Maybe that, and a nice cup of herbal tea, will get you back in tip-top shape for next weekend


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 10, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> ...the knitting and police torture workshop.


They gave me a nasty drop stitch in the back of Hornsey Road police station once.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 10, 2020)

And then they got out the crochet hook. Aargh!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> They gave me a nasty drop stitch in the back of Hornsey Road police station once.


Saw the dropstitch murphys play at the garage on holloway road some years back.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 10, 2020)

Jewdas and DPAC. Plenty of edgy Holocaust ‘satire’ for all


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 10, 2020)

No terfs though. You’ve got to have limits


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 10, 2020)

I've heard nowt bad about DPAC but didn't Jewdas throw in their lot with the Labour Party?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> And then they got out the crochet hook. Aargh!


Aargh indeed, as crochet was a great pastime among pirates


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Aargh indeed, as crochet was a great pastime among pirates


I thought that was 'Aarrrrh'.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 10, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> I've heard nowt bad about DPAC but didn't Jewdas throw in their lot with the Labour Party?



DPAC went full Corbyn, was very active within internal labour politics. Their big names so to speak are either labour/SWP/unite members.

regular appearances at Marxism (previously on RT too. but that seems to have ebbed away), links with the weirder left wing things (canary, Skwawkbox). Topple is a member.

Their direct activity is good, but sadly their politics is a combination of beauraucratic and conspiraloon leftism. Don’t mention the white helmets/Julian assange etc  
.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 10, 2020)

Or geta thunberg. They really hate her


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> I've heard nowt bad about DPAC but didn't Jewdas throw in their lot with the Labour Party?



They invited Corbyn to a Passover Seder event at which a beetroot was held aloft to shouts of “fuck capitalism” iirc.

Dunno about anything other than that?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

Home
					

Anarchist Bookfair in London page




					anarchistbookfair.london


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

Still using words like “anathematic”  

And yes, inclusive language in promotional material IS the hill I choose to die on, thank you for asking.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2020)

Lurdan said:


> That doesn't sound good. Nicole Rose who presented that 'Herbalism and State Violence' workshop
> 
> Maybe that, and a nice cup of herbal tea, will get you back in tip-top shape for next weekend


 "Balsam Prison Blues " shurely?


----------



## Sue (Oct 11, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> They invited Corbyn to a Passover Seder event at which a beetroot was held aloft to shouts of “fuck capitalism” iirc.


I'm finding it increasingly difficult to distinguish between pisstaking and reality. I'm assuming this is the former but who knows..


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

Sue said:


> I'm finding it increasingly difficult to distinguish between pisstaking and reality. I'm assuming this is the former but who knows..



Well yes. Except...


----------



## Sue (Oct 11, 2020)

Is it me who's lost the plot or everyone else?  (Saying that, it is the Mail so 🤷‍♀️...)


----------



## smokedout (Oct 11, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> DPAC went full Corbyn, was very active within internal labour politics. Their big names so to speak are either labour/SWP/unite members.
> 
> regular appearances at Marxism (previously on RT too. but that seems to have ebbed away), links with the weirder left wing things (canary, Skwawkbox). Topple is a member.
> 
> ...




That's not fair, they don't really have a core politics and there's everyone from trots to anarchos involved.  They don't have a rigid hierarchy, they have a steering group that co-ordinates national events but anyone can join it, as well as several local groups, and they support direct action and non co-operation with police.  I wouldn't in any way call them an anarchist organisation but they are sympathetic, have anarchist members, have supported anarchist groups and events and have been at pretty  much every bookfair since they were founded.


----------



## JimW (Oct 11, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well yes. Except...View attachment 233932


Bringing back  raphanidosis as revolutionary strategy?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

JimW said:


> Bringing back  raphanidosis as revolutionary strategy?



I really wish I hadn’t looked that up, @JimW


----------



## JimW (Oct 11, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I really wish I hadn’t looked that up, @JimW


As you can imagine, it's the kind of word that once you learn, sticks in your...err, mind.


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Home
> 
> 
> Anarchist Bookfair in London page
> ...



That website is fucking horrible, looks like some punk kid did it. Took me ages to realise those things at the top are buttons for more info as well.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

JimW said:


> Bringing back  raphanidosis as revolutionary strategy?


We normally grow too many radishes as it is. Now at last I know what to do with them.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 11, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Home
> 
> 
> Anarchist Bookfair in London page
> ...


That is giving me a headache (on the phone).  There’s no way I can read any of that.  It’s a shame. I’d like to.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

I know fuck all about making websites accessible but that can’t be it can it?


----------



## chilango (Oct 11, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> That is giving me a headache (on the phone).  There’s no way I can read any of that.  It’s a shame. I’d like to.



It's not worth the trouble, sadly, imo.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 11, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I know fuck all about making websites accessible but that can’t be it can it?


I have visual stress, and that is no good for me.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I have visual stress, and that is no good for me.



I’ll try and do a cut and paste for you next time I’m on a computer...


----------



## chilango (Oct 11, 2020)

chilango said:


> It's not worth the trouble, sadly, imo.



...as in there's not a single meeting I'd be bothered about attending, even virtually.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...as in there's not a single meeting I'd be bothered about attending, even virtually.



12 Rules For What are decent. The GAF thing looks interesting. I’m up for archiving dusty old things so MayDay rooms might be ok but not for two hours.

I will probably be on the piss all weekend instead though unless lockdown happens.


----------



## deeyo (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Saw the dropstitch murphys play at the garage on holloway road some years back.


Did they play any old songs; knitting up to boston, captain kellys stitching, seamstress on the mtba...?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

And what happens to you if you don't think that transphobia is a class issue? Or don't agree on the official version of what is transphobia? Or what a class issue is?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> And what happens to you if you don't think that transphobia is a class issue? Or don't agree on the official version of what is transphobia? Or what a class issue is?



not much, given that it’s an online event, would by my guess.


----------



## chilango (Oct 11, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> And what happens to you if you don't think that transphobia is a class issue? Or don't agree on the official version of what is transphobia? Or what a class issue is?










Hopefully.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

chilango said:


> Hopefully.


Yeah, best not to allow any questions.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 12, 2020)

depressing amount of carping
considering covid killed the event (again) the fact they ('they' being probably about 3 knackered volunteers) managed to build a website from scratch and work out the technology to put on a streamed programme, no doubt with fuck all money if any, is a minor miracle. im sure it wouldve been very much easier to say Ah Fuck it.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> depressing amount of carping
> considering covid killed the event (again) the fact they ('they' being probably about 3 knackered volunteers) managed to build a website from scratch and work out the technology to put on a streamed programme, no doubt with fuck all money if any, is a minor miracle. im sure it wouldve been very much easier to say Ah Fuck it.



Fair do's but this is Urban75.   

Possibly there might have been more than three of them (if that is the number) if they had allowed more people who expressed an interest to attend their inaugural meeting in August last year.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2020)

danny la rouge here is the programme:



Saturday 10:30 - 12:15Stop and Scrap Universal credit: where now for the campaign? (DPAC)Saturday 12:15 - 13:00Stolen Anarchy: Playing Indian & The Roots of Collectivism (Twin Rabbit)Saturday 13:00 - 14:00Discussion: Jean Weir's 'To The Deranged' (Forged Books)Saturday 14:00 - 16:00Archiving Radical Spaces (Mayday Rooms)Saturday 16:00 - 17:00Great Anarchists (Ruth Kinna)Saturday 17:00 - 18:00Trauma, Tracksuits and Class Traitors (D.Hunter)Saturday 18:00 - 19:00Fascism and Anti-fascism (12 Rules for WHAT)Saturday 19:00 - 20:00Eco-fascism: The Rhetoric of the Virus (Jay Fraser and guests)Saturday 20:00 - 21:00Talk on the Earth Strike campaign (Earth Strike)Saturday 21:00 - 22:00Activist Cafe goes Bookfair 2020! (The Common House)Sunday 10:00 - 10:30Transphobia is a Class issue (Anarchasteminist)Sunday 10:30 - 11:00Capitalism, Welfare and the Making of a Human Catastrophe (Ellen Clifford)Sunday 11:00 - 11:30Osugi Sakae's Life and Philosophy (Sasazuka Collective)Sunday 11:30 - 12:30A talk with the Anarchist LibrarySunday 12:30 - 13:00Organise! Guide to design (Anarchist Federation)Sunday 13:00 - 14:00Anarcho folk festivals: Who, what, when, where, how, and why (James Bar Bowen)Sunday 14:00 - 15:00Challenging sexism, racism & class bias in the family courts (Legal Action for Women)Sunday 15:00 - 16:00A Care Income for People & Planet! (Global Women's Strike)Sunday 16:00 - 17:00DPAC Live Panel Discussion (DPAC)Sunday 17:00 - 18:00An introduction to the Solidarity Federation (Solfed)Sunday 18:00 - 19:00Sex Workers Fighting Police, Illegality, and Racism (ECP)Sunday 19:00 - 20:00Talk on Turkey's Devrimci Anarşist Faaliyet (AF)Sunday 20:00 - 21:00Green Solidarity – Learning from the GRASS experience (GAF)Sunday 21:00 - 21:30Poetry with The Uptown PortrayerSunday 21:30 - 22:30Steve White and the Protest Family


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2020)

danny la rouge here is the intro text:


*Welcome to the 2020 Anarchist Bookfair in London*
We wish we could be together again this year to meet old comrades and foes, conspire, educate, organize and plot in person, but due to Covid-19, this event will be held online from Saturday 17th October to Sunday 18th October 2020.

We did our best effort to facilitate our collective's first anarchist bookfair, and to try and make it accessible and inclusive online.

If we made any errors, we apologies in advance. We hope you will enjoy this year's online edition, and if you have any issues please get in touch via the email below.

The composition of the organising collectives behind the various Anarchist bookfairs in London has changed many times over the years and we are proud to take on the task of bringing a prominent bastion of Anarchist and radical thinking back to London. The London Anarchist Bookfair has been a vital component of the Anarchist community since it’s inception in 1981 and we intend to carry on in this fine tradition.

Bookfair 2020 will be a diverse event with an organisational focus on both internationalism and our Anarchist heritage here in the UK. We are hoping that our international comrades will join us on the day, as many did in previous years and we intend to play host to workshops and displays that illustrate our shared Anarchist tradition.

More than just a simple marketplace, bookfairs are cornerstones of Anarchism, linchpins of a diverse and sprawling revolutionary movement. They are where we come together to share our ideas, debate our positions and develop our theory and praxis. They help us to believe in better worlds and start to lay the foundations of a world free of oppression, corporatism and the brutal authority of the state.

In respect to the events in 2017 where transphobic material was shared in the women’s bathrooms and the main hall, we wish to state that the Bookfair 2020 will follow our comrades from Bristol, Manchester, Liverpool, Edinburgh and elsewhere in providing a space diverse in character and secure from xenophobia and bigotry in any vein.

Our solidarity is overt and complete. Any politic which would seek to oppress, undermine or remove the rights and liberties of others is anathematic to Anarchism and will find no welcome nor tolerance at the bookfair itself or any associated event or space.

We do this to be clear that no aspect of oppression will be allowed within our revolutionary spaces.

Solidarity and unity being key principles to Anarchism, we would like the 2020 Bookfair to act as a focal point for re-building cohesion in our community, fostering new networks and developing stronger ties and understanding between us, both in the UK and internationally. Sharing knowledge and supporting each others’ personal and political development in good faith is the call of the day. We shall ensure an array of workshops to cater for this and we shall host speakers on a variety of topics.

If anyone wishes to get involved, we welcome volunteers from all backgrounds and abilities: both for this year's online version and for the years to come. Whether you are able/inclined to plan the logistics, help fundraise, promote the event or help us run everything on the day, please get in touch. If you have ideas for talks, workshops, discussions or stalls or simply wish to book a space, please do not hesitate to get in contact.

We hope you will join us on and together we can build a stronger more resilient community and forge a better future, one free of shackles of capitalism and the tyranny of the state and strengthen our bonds of international and intersectional solidarity, mutual aid and unity.

The artwork for this site was created by Never Come Down Comix

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Email:- anarchistbookfairlondon(at)riseup.net


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## chilango (Oct 12, 2020)

I tell a lie. The Global Women's Strike one looks interesting.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 12, 2020)

Thanks Fozzie Bear


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> danny la rouge here is the programme:
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday 10:30 - 12:15Stop and Scrap Universal credit: where now for the campaign? (DPAC)Saturday 12:15 - 13:00Stolen Anarchy: Playing Indian & The Roots of Collectivism (Twin Rabbit)Saturday 13:00 - 14:00Discussion: Jean Weir's 'To The Deranged' (Forged Books)Saturday 14:00 - 16:00Archiving Radical Spaces (Mayday Rooms)Saturday 16:00 - 17:00Great Anarchists (Ruth Kinna)Saturday 17:00 - 18:00Trauma, Tracksuits and Class Traitors (D.Hunter)Saturday 18:00 - 19:00Fascism and Anti-fascism (12 Rules for WHAT)Saturday 19:00 - 20:00Eco-fascism: The Rhetoric of the Virus (Jay Fraser and guests)Saturday 20:00 - 21:00Talk on the Earth Strike campaign (Earth Strike)Saturday 21:00 - 22:00Activist Cafe goes Bookfair 2020! (The Common House)Sunday 10:00 - 10:30Transphobia is a Class issue (Anarchasteminist)Sunday 10:30 - 11:00Capitalism, Welfare and the Making of a Human Catastrophe (Ellen Clifford)Sunday 11:00 - 11:30Osugi Sakae's Life and Philosophy (Sasazuka Collective)Sunday 11:30 - 12:30A talk with the Anarchist LibrarySunday 12:30 - 13:00Organise! Guide to design (Anarchist Federation)Sunday 13:00 - 14:00Anarcho folk festivals: Who, what, when, where, how, and why (James Bar Bowen)Sunday 14:00 - 15:00Challenging sexism, racism & class bias in the family courts (Legal Action for Women)Sunday 15:00 - 16:00A Care Income for People & Planet! (Global Women's Strike)Sunday 16:00 - 17:00DPAC Live Panel Discussion (DPAC)Sunday 17:00 - 18:00An introduction to the Solidarity Federation (Solfed)Sunday 18:00 - 19:00Sex Workers Fighting Police, Illegality, and Racism (ECP)Sunday 19:00 - 20:00Talk on Turkey's Devrimci Anarşist Faaliyet (AF)Sunday 20:00 - 21:00Green Solidarity – Learning from the GRASS experience (GAF)Sunday 21:00 - 21:30Poetry with The Uptown PortrayerSunday 21:30 - 22:30Steve White and the Protest Family


the jean weir, anarchist library and mayday rooms meetings look interesting. but it's not a proper bookfair without martin wright imo. for ~20 years there's been an ian bone / martin wright collaboration, martin on his own or with lisa mckenzie and for me most years that's been the highlight of the day.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Thanks Fozzie Bear


do you hypnotise bears as well as you did dogs?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> do you hypnotise bears as well as you did dogs?


Exactly as well.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2020)

I have found danny la rouge entrancing for some time now, it’s true.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 12, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I have found danny la rouge entrancing for some time now, it’s true.


😎


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> depressing amount of carping
> considering covid killed the event (again) the fact they ('they' being probably about 3 knackered volunteers) managed to build a website from scratch and work out the technology to put on a streamed programme, no doubt with fuck all money if any, is a minor miracle. im sure it wouldve been very much easier to say Ah Fuck it.



Yeah. Sorry. I was tired and grumpy.

I'm glad _something_ is happening. But sad that most of it is of little interest to me.

Hopefully others will get more out of it.


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## smokedout (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> And what happens to you if you don't think that transphobia is a class issue? Or don't agree on the official version of what is transphobia? Or what a class issue is?



You could give that workshop a miss and watch one of the other ones.  Or turn up with your non anarchist friends and troll it until you get kicked off and then get Julie Bindel to write a piece in The Spectator on how you were viciously silenced by woke thugs.  So there's options.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

smokedout said:


> You could give that workshop a miss and watch one of the other ones.  Or turn up with your non anarchist friends and troll it until you get kicked off and then get Julie Bindel to write a piece in The Spectator on how you were viciously silenced by woke thugs.  So there's options.


Well I wouldn't know about any of that, not being a friend of Julie Burchill and not having contacts at the Spectator. I do however have some non-anarchist friends. But thanks for all the friendly advice.


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## LDC (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Well I wouldn't know about any of that, not being a friend of Julie Burchill and not having contacts at the Spectator. I do however have some non-anarchist friends. But thanks for all the friendly advice.



Do think you comment about transphobia not being a class issue needs a bit of unpicking. Surely it depends on how it's situated in a political context? Like it could be (which I assume this workshop will cover given its title. Who knows, it might even be an anti-ID politics presentation) or it could be discussed from a more liberal perspective of rights etc.?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Do think you comment about transphobia not being a class issue needs a bit of unpicking. Surely it depends on how it's situated in a political context? Like it could be (which I assume this workshop will cover given its title. Who knows, it might even be an anti-ID politics presentation) or it could be discussed from a more liberal perspective of rights etc.?


All quite possible. But the background to all this, as I'm sure you know, is of debate being closed down, of accusations of transphobia being flung around like confetti and of intimidation and attempts to stop meetings etc. There's also been accusations of misogyny from both sides. Not all of this, probably not much at all, has come from anarchists, but some has. What bothers me is that most women I know who have expressed opinions on the matter would be classed as transphobes by some, which they would deny. These are all women left of centre, anarchist, communist, SWP, Green Party, Labour Party. Their voices are largely unheard because they have not been consulted. Now it seems there is only one voice allowed in the anarchist movement. I think that's crap.


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2020)

Their voices are unheard? Really??  I think they’ve been pretty fucking loud over the last couple of years.  And Priti Patel has listened to them.


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## stethoscope (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Their voices are largely unheard because they have not been consulted. Now it seems there is only one voice allowed in the anarchist movement. I think that's crap.



Trans critical discourse has been predominant for twenty years in the UK - where blogs that were once considered fringe and extreme now get quoted as mainstream, the Grauniad ramping it up with Bindel and Burchill, the Mail, to the Times, Telegraph, New Statesman, Spectator, and Spiked all at it the last few years. Woman's Place, Fairplay for Women, and supposed 'left' people have been readily engaging with Tory MPs, right-wing press, and contrarian dicks for three years - whether it be stickering campaigns to make trans people feel unwelcome even in LGBT areas such as Canal Street, and going all the way to the government to try and derail any changes to trans rights and stoke up fear.

Now, I've been standing outside of this as much as possible as its been a saddening situation all round both personally and politically, but seriously, sod off with this bizarre regurgitating that trans critical (bordering on transphobic) voices haven't been heard. Bullshit.

And whilst I'm personally pretty unfazed by it, when I can't go to a radical space or bookfair without having flyers thrown at me with deliberately provocative shit in them - not intended to have an 'honest debate' but basically to stir up division, just fuck off with this nonsense.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

belboid said:


> Their voices are unheard? Really??  I think they’ve been pretty fucking loud over the last couple of years.  And Priti Patel has listened to them.


 I don't think Priti Patel listens to anyone on the left. Her views on any particular issue may or may not coincide with some on the left, but not because she pays any attention to them.


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## chilango (Oct 12, 2020)

For fucks sake.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I don't think Priti Patel listens to anyone on the left. Her views on any particular issue may or may not coincide with some on the left, but not because she pays any attention to them.


this captures her consultation process more accurately


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> Trans critical discourse has been predominant for twenty years in the UK - where blogs that were once considered fringe and extreme now get quoted as mainstream, and Grauniad ramping it up with Bindel and Burchill, the Mail, to the Times, Telegraph, New Statesman, Spectator, and Spiked all at it the last few years. Woman's Place, Fairplay for Women, and supposed 'left' people have been readily engaging with Tory MPs and right-wing press amongst others for three years, making trans people feel unwelcome even in LGBT areas such as Canal Street, Manchester.
> 
> Now, I've been standing outside of this shit as much as possible, but seriously, fuck off with this shit that trans critical (bordering on transphobic) voices haven't had a voice. Bullshit.
> 
> And whilst I'm personally pretty unfazed by it, when I can't go to a radical space or bookfair without having flyers thrown at me with deliberately provocative shit in them not intended to have an 'honest debate' but basically to stir up division, fuck off with this nonsense.


I'm not saying that any and all 'gender critical' voices have been blameless, or even worthwhile. That's true of some on the other side as well. What a lot of women think, however, is that policies on transgender issues have been created within organisations without any real discussion. This applies to the Labour Party, Green Party, Trades unions, sporting bodies, academic bodies etc. Then if they raise objections or have a differing opinions,( sometimes extreme, sometimes mild), they get no-platformed and the like. This perception is widely held and if untrue needs a better rejoinder than just 'fuck off'.
There have been attempts by some to close down women's opinions and meetings, with bomb threats, threatening phone calls to those hosting events, masked pickets, attempts to drown out speakers. You may think that kind of stuff is OK in this context. Perhaps you don't. I don't like it at all.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I'm not saying that any and all 'gender critical' voices have been blameless, or even worthwhile. That's true of some on the other side as well. What a lot of women think, however, is that policies on transgender issues have been created within organisations without any real discussion. This applies to the Labour Party, Green Party, Trades unions, sporting bodies, academic bodies etc. Then if they raise objections or have a differing opinions,( sometimes extreme, sometimes mild), they get no-platformed and the like. This perception is widely held and if untrue needs a better rejoinder than just 'fuck off'.
> There have been attempts by some to close down women's opinions and meetings, with bomb threats, threatening phone calls to those hosting events, masked pickets, attempts to drown out speakers. You may think that kind of stuff is OK in this context. Perhaps you don't. I don't like it at all.



Enough of this shit, I truly doubt your sincerity and don't think you've been honest with your intentions since you washed up here. Same as 'larry nobious', same as 'mochasoul', same as 'Judithb'. When you're challenged you have nothing - no historical context, no critical analysis, no proper experiences to relay, just the same old tired bigotry and second hand bullshit dressed up as "just trying to find my way through the division". I've had enough of that from what turns out two-faced posters on urban to ever be able to trust people on here again.

Off you fuck.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> Enough of this shit, I truly doubt your sincerity and don't think you've been honest with your intentions since you washed up here. Same as 'larry nobious', same as 'mochasoul', same as 'Judithb'. And I've heard enough 'just trying to find my way through the division' shit from what turns out two-faced posters on urban to ever be able to trust people on here again.


Well I'm sorry that's the case. I don't doubt your sincerity or honesty, you'll be pleased to know, but knowing my own sincerity and honesty in this matter I have no confidence in your judgement.


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I'm not saying that any and all 'gender critical' voices have been blameless, or even worthwhile. That's true of some on the other side as well. What a lot of women think, however, is that policies on transgender issues have been created within organisations without any real discussion. This applies to the Labour Party, Green Party, Trades unions, sporting bodies, academic bodies etc. Then if they raise objections or have a differing opinions,( sometimes extreme, sometimes mild), they get no-platformed and the like. This perception is widely held and if untrue needs a better rejoinder than just 'fuck off'.
> There have been attempts by some to close down women's opinions and meetings, with bomb threats, threatening phone calls to those hosting events, masked pickets, attempts to drown out speakers. You may think that kind of stuff is OK in this context. Perhaps you don't. I don't like it at all.


You are completely delusional.  The idea that their hasn’t been literally years of debates within the LP, TUs and academic bodies is just risible.  There have been massive debates discussions and rows.  Probably in the greens too.   To claim the opposite means you have either drawn all your information from hate groups like A Woman’s Place, have had your head in the sand or are just a liar.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 12, 2020)

Ah so it’s agreed. Hating Jews ok, but no terfs.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

belboid said:


> you have either drawn all your information from hate groups like A Woman’s Place, have had your head in the sand or are just a liar.


Or live in the South West. I tell you, when I came home from the London Anarchist Bookfair back in 2017 hardly anyone I spoke to had much of an idea what I was talking about (yeah, I know).


----------



## cantsin (Oct 12, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ah so it’s agreed. Hating Jews ok, but no terfs.



another fine contribution from your good self, well done


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2020)

chilango said:


> For fucks sake.


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Or live in the South West. I tell you, when I came home from the London Anarchist Bookfair back in 2017 hardly anyone I spoke to had much of an idea what I was talking about (yeah, I know).


And yet you know of what must be hundreds of women who have been silenced in the unions, academic and sporting bodies, the labour and green parties and everywhere else.  Astounding.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 12, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ah so it’s agreed. Hating Jews ok, but no terfs.



Somewhat ironic comment given Transgender Trend, Harry Miller and Posie Parker have just appeared alongside naked anti-semitism on Sonia Poulton's new conspiracy show.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 12, 2020)

Anyway there's a thread already to talk about trans issues.  The bookfair organisers have done a fucking good job to pull off anything at the moment, not least considering the whole thing looked dead in the water a couple of years ago.  Maybe we could take it elsewhere if people want to and not trash this thread.  (I know partly my fault for biting I'm sorry).


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

belboid said:


> And yet you know of what must be hundreds of women who have been silenced in the unions, academic and sporting bodies, the labour and green parties and everywhere else.  Astounding.


Your words, not mine.


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Your words, not mine.


I’m quoting your claim back to me.  The ones you completely made up.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

belboid said:


> I’m quoting your claim back to me.  The ones you completely made up.


No you're not. I never said I had canvassed the opinions of hundreds of women. But lots of women feel that they were not involved in any discussion, not consulted. You may not like that, but tough.


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> No you're not. I never said I had canvassed the opinions of hundreds of women. But lots of women feel that they were not involved in any discussion, not consulted. You may not like that, but tough.


But where have you heard that from?  That is what I am questioning. And wondering why you have only heard from women with a certain view. Almost as if you dont want to listen to someone with different views as you.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

belboid said:


> Almost as if you dont want to listen to someone with different views as you.


I'm not one of those trying to close this conversation down. That's my whole point.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2020)

Personally, I'd _really_ like to close this particular conversation down.


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I'm not one of those trying to close this conversation down. That's my whole point.



No you’re the one trying to drag it on and on despite saying nothing new and simply repeating falsehoods.

‘no ones listening to these women who got what they demanded’


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2020)

At the risk of doing PR for these people who cruelly never replied to my offer of help:


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2020)

A) this don't feel great
B )belboid king of the labour party anarchists
C) Smoked out is one the best posters we've ever had on here.


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## ska invita (Oct 16, 2020)

i think some more events have gone up

also this


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## kenny g (Oct 17, 2020)

That torrent they have put up is great. Loads of stuff on there.


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## ska invita (Oct 17, 2020)

so main stream


and cinema stream


thats it right?


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## Rhyddical (Oct 17, 2020)

Don't forget our two 11-6  Anarchist Audio radio sessions.



			https://anarchistbookfair.london/page/radio_timetable
		



			http://radio.indybay.org/dissidentisland.m3u
		


I'm sure not everything is to everyones liking but I hope you all find something useful/interesting.


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## Shechemite (Oct 17, 2020)

My grumpiness aside well done for getting this together in difficult circumstances


----------



## chilango (Oct 18, 2020)

Rhyddical said:


> Don't forget our two 11-6  Anarchist Audio radio sessions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like that graphic


----------



## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

One advantage of the online format is I've actually gone to some workshops


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## Dom Traynor (Oct 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> I like that graphic


It's certainly accurate


----------



## nogojones (Oct 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> so main stream
> 
> 
> and cinema stream
> ...



Quickly checked those streams. First one was some bloke strumming a guitar and going on about anarcho-folk. Second one looked like Tom Robinson (strumming a guitar). It's like a bad house party in 1985. I'm out


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## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Quickly checked those streams. First one was some bloke strumming a guitar and going on about anarcho-folk. Second one looked like Tom Robinson (strumming a guitar). It's like a bad house party in 1985. I'm out


The ararcho folk thing? He's doing quite a good intro in "how to organise a micro festival".


----------



## nogojones (Oct 18, 2020)

rich! said:


> The ararcho folk thing? He's doing quite a good intro in "how to organise a micro festival".


I didn't last that long. One the strumming started I was gone


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## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

nogojones said:


> I didn't last that long. One the strumming started I was gone


fair enough


----------



## smokedout (Oct 18, 2020)

rich! said:


> One advantage of the online format is I've actually gone to some workshops



Weird isn't it, I might go sit outside the nearest Wetherspoons on my own and shout at passing coppers.


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## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Weird isn't it, I might go sit outside the nearest Wetherspoons on my own and shout at passing coppers.


I'm actually doing an online SFF conference at the same time (FIYAHCON) which starts ~3pm because it's on US time zones, it's been really good flipping between very different workshops and Discord channels


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## stethoscope (Oct 18, 2020)

Have been listening in to some of these throughout the weekend as I've been able to - good work for putting something on and in such circumstances


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## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

hmm, feels like "crack open a beer" time


----------



## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> I like that graphic


the poster is for sale as a fundraiser - https://anarchistbookfair.london/page/donations


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## klang (Oct 18, 2020)

rich! said:


> the poster is for sale as a fundraiser - https://anarchistbookfair.london/page/donations


is it me being thick or is it paypal only? don't have it.


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## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

littleseb said:


> is it me being thick or is it paypal only? don't have it.


paypal only. you can download it as a jpg on the main page
(I think it's paypal only because they blagged a space in someone else's webshop rather than setup their own)


----------



## klang (Oct 18, 2020)

rich! said:


> paypal only. you can download it as a jpg on the main page
> (I think it's paypal only because they blagged a space in someone else's webshop rather than setup their own)


will ask a pal with paypal to order me one then.


----------



## Rhyddical (Oct 18, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Quickly checked those streams. First one was some bloke strumming a guitar and going on about anarcho-folk. Second one looked like Tom Robinson (strumming a guitar). It's like a bad house party in 1985. I'm out



Fair, not everything is for everyone ofcourse, tho I hope amongst the some 40 hours of content you might find something you enjoy. It will all be uploaded onto the website in the coming week so you can pick and choose.

For those who do enjoy a bit of strumming, Steve White and The Protest family will be on at 10:30 followed by James Bar Bowen (who gave that talk) at 11:30.... I mean if you don't get into a bunfight at weatherspoons per tradition.


----------



## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

rich! said:


> paypal only. you can download it as a jpg on the main page
> (I think it's paypal only because they blagged a space in someone else's webshop rather than setup their own)


having been involved in setting up a local food project, getting banking in place is a nightmare, and getting a webshop that isn't a nightmare is a couple of hundred quid a year, so i totally understand why they are "paypal only", even if it's a PITA...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 18, 2020)

I checked out a few things on Saturday. (I was going to go and get pissed in Brighton but decided to be responsible and Tier 2 instead like the sad sack I am).

*DPAC* was ok - it was good to hear about the background to their campaign against the Metro newspaper. 
*Twin Rabbit *- quite cool quirky lecture style with a bit of animation. Was a bit distracted so zoned out.
The *Jean Weir *session was a reading group led by a young man with his hood up and a mask on and a load of attendees with their screens off. Bit odd. Not my sort of thing anyway.
*Mayday Rooms* - Arrived late to find the presenter bigging up the Radical History of Hackney website, which was nice. A bit stilted but an interesting discussion about radical spaces of old and the difficulties recording their histories. There was a lot of "does anyone remember [this thing]?" and basically I did remember it because I am 51 years old but didn't want to make an exhibition of myself. So there was a bit me writing in the chat.
*D Hunter *- Just read _Chav Solidarity _so good to put a face to a name. Mainly readings which were pretty full on (abjectly shit childhood). Q&A was brief iirc. 
*12 Rules For What*. Basically a pre-recorded episode of their podcast with an overview of the book they are doing. I like the podcast and I liked this but there was obvs no chance of interaction. You can check it out on their soundcloud/podcast feed now anyhoo.
*Eco-fascism *- was ok but unmemorable? 

I think as others have said on here, it was pretty good given the circumstances. The best bit would have been catching up with people (including people on this thread) and books and beer, so it was always going to be a different kettle of fish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I checked out a few things on Saturday. (I was going to go and get pissed in Brighton but decided to be responsible and Tier 2 instead like the sad sack I am).
> 
> *DPAC* was ok - it was good to hear about the background to their campaign against the Metro newspaper.
> *Twin Rabbit *- quite cool quirky lecture style with a bit of animation. Was a bit distracted so zoned out.
> ...


Mayday rooms: were you writing or writhing?


----------



## rich! (Oct 18, 2020)

I was going to say it would have been nice to have Veggies, but I have a big bag of their burger mix on my shelf waiting for me to make it so that's no-one's fault but my own. (Their nut roast mix is pretty awesome)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Mayday rooms: were you writing or writhing?



Oh both.


----------



## Rhyddical (Oct 19, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I checked out a few things on Saturday. (I was going to go and get pissed in Brighton but decided to be responsible and Tier 2 instead like the sad sack I am).
> 
> *DPAC* was ok - it was good to hear about the background to their campaign against the Metro newspaper.
> *Twin Rabbit *- quite cool quirky lecture style with a bit of animation. Was a bit distracted so zoned out.
> ...




Cool, thanks for coming along and for the notes.

I definately agree that we should of provided more QnA time for sessions and had more "window" space between sessions.
To be honest I think were surprised a little by how many folk wanted to get involved and had to pack things a bit tight, not just for the session themselves but the back stage technical support too.

Perhaps we should of had a "pre-recorded room" and Two workshop spaces with much wider time windows which may or may not be filled as per the interest of the host and audiance.

The "knitting circle" aspect of Bookfair is why we made the Discord space, but inherently that draws in a hum, a different audience  that U75.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 19, 2020)

Entirely forget it was on this weekend.  I will though look at stuff when it lands on the website.  

I might not be entirely lined up with everything that lead from the old collective to the new, But great job in getting this done. Feels like everything has been on hold for the last 6 months whereas, in reality it hasn't. The world's been getting grimmer and the powerful have been fucking us over at every step through the pandemic.  Really need to fight back, so nice work.


----------



## rich! (Oct 19, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Entirely forget it was on this weekend.  I will though look at stuff when it lands on the website.
> 
> I might not be entirely lined up with everything that lead from the old collective to the new, But great job in getting this done. Feels like everything has been on hold for the last 6 months whereas, in reality it hasn't. The world's been getting grimmer and the powerful have been fucking us over at every step through the pandemic.  Really need to fight back, so nice work.



I'd say it's worth having a look at the GAF/Green Anti Cap talk if they recorded it. They did quite a good job of subverting Mutual Aid in the area they were in...


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2021)

The 2021 Anarchist Bookfairs List
					

In 2020 real-life anarchist bookfairs were, sadly, largely out of the question and very little happened which wasn’t virtual, including in Dundee, Edinburgh and London which ran extensive sho…




					freedomnews.org.uk
				




Includes details of a London Bookfair 2021

Anarchist Bookfair in London and Antiuniversity
September 4th-11th

LAB: Website | Facebook | Twitter | Contact
Anti-Uni: Website | Facebook | Contact: antiuniversitynow at Gmail.com

The Antiuniversity and the Anarchist Bookfair in London are joining forces to bring together a week-long Antiuniversity Festival from the 4th to the 10th of September, followed directly by the Anarchist Bookfair on the 11th of September. To book a stall or a workshop for the Bookfair day, please get in touch with the Bookfair Collective early, as spaces might be limited. The physical event has been scaled down in order to be Covid responsible, and depends on the ongoing situation.

Antiuniversity events will be programmed in the usual way, directly through the Antiuni website. Submissions will be open between 3-24 July and the programme will go live in early August. The entire festival, 4-11 Sept, will take place in-person (when possible) and digitally. Please check out the Antiuni and the Bookfair websites for more information.


----------



## Rhyddical (Jul 11, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2021)

I've always found it strange how frequently these antiuniversity things take place at university premises


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I've always found it strange how frequently these antiuniversity things take place at university premises


I hadn’t noticed that. They seem like decent people though.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 12, 2021)

From my recollection previous Anti-University events took place at the Conway Hall, at the White Building on Fish Island, at the May Day Rooms, etc. Don't remember any
 university venues, but if so, that's because they're sometimes more available than other venues


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> From my recollection previous Anti-University events took place at the Conway Hall, at the White Building on Fish Island, at the May Day Rooms, etc. Don't remember any
> university venues, but if so, that's because they're sometimes more available than other venues


when there was the squated house belonging to soas on russell square iirc there were similarly titled things put on there and i think - tho without my vast archive of bookfair programmes to hand - that things along this theme happened when the bookfair was at ulu and queen mary's


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 20, 2021)

Anarchist Communist Group have a public meeting at the Anti-University :








						Anarchist Communism vs Big Tent Anarchism  (Part of Antiuniversity 2021)
					

Anarchist communism is a tradition which has developed distinct analyses and strategies that have a lot to offer the revolutionary movement




					www.eventbrite.co.uk
				



But for some reason which eludes us, have had no response to a request for a stall at the London Anarchist Bookfair.


----------



## LDC (Aug 20, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> Anarchist Communist Group have a public meeting at the Anti-University :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope that's an oversight and not a deliberate position....? Have you chased it up?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 20, 2021)

Yes, three emails (not acknowledged) plus filling in  of online form (again not acknowledged)


----------



## LDC (Aug 20, 2021)

Rhyddical any idea what's going on here?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 22, 2021)

There is an open invitation to ask questions on Twitter if anyone would like to do that (so far, no questions)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 22, 2021)

Sealioning?


----------



## A380 (Aug 22, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Sealioning?


Get with the programme dadio. Like the cool kids. You too could be hip like me. 

“Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki.”



I must say, it’s not as good as I’d hoped. I was wanting fish slapping and tunes played by a pinniped on a selection of car horns TBH.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 22, 2021)

Someone hasn't been reading any Border Reiver threads. But yeah, the invitation to "ask questions (drama will be ignored or deleted)" does seem a bit "ask us anything! No tricky questions though".


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 23, 2021)

There will be an ACG Stall at the Bradford Anarchist/Radical Bokfair on September 4th, though.


			https://bookfair.org.uk/files/2021/07/bookfair-scaled.jpg


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 23, 2021)

A380 said:


> Get with the programme dadio. Like the cool kids. You too could be hip like me.


Sadly, I’m almost exactly as hip as you.  Which is to say, not at all.


----------



## A380 (Aug 23, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sadly, I’m almost exactly as hip as you.  Which is to say, not at all.


I think the problem is we are both equally  ‘hip’…and therefore invisible to anyone who’s driving licence doesn’t cover eight seater minibuses…


----------



## nogojones (Aug 23, 2021)

A380 said:


> Get with the programme dadio. Like the cool kids. You too could be hip like me.
> 
> “Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki.”
> 
> ...


Do you have anything in the way of concrete evidence to show this sort of thing happens?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

Asking as someone who hasn't been involved for a couple of years, would it be fair to say that groups are still as divided as ever on trans issues?  I'm sort of thinking about the AFED/ACG split, but the movement such as it is more generally?  As an example I just found this on the AFED website, denouncing antifascist groups and the ACG.  The language and divisions look to be exactly as they were 3 or 4 years ago. 








						Full Stop Affinity’s Final Statement – 🏴 Anarchist Federation
					






					www.anarchistfederation.net
				




Thought I'd plonk the question down here rather than risk another thread.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Asking as someone who hasn't been involved for a couple of years, would it be fair to say that groups are still as divided as ever on trans issues?  I'm sort of thinking about the AFED/ACG split, but the movement such as it is more generally?  As an example I just found this on the AFED website, denouncing antifascist groups and the ACG.  The language and divisions look to be exactly as they were 3 or 4 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That anarchistfederation.net site is confusing - I think it is a project run by the French AF, but it's a content aggregator collecting news from lots of anarcho-leaning sources. Which is a worthwhile project to do (I think, as long as you do a decent bit of due diligence on your sources to stop it getting clogged up with weirdo crap), but is not the same thing as having a website giving official or semi-official views of a specific political organisation, which is what you might expect from a site called anarchistfederation.net, so I wish they'd change it to anarchistnewssources or something. Anyway, fuck knows really cos I'm not super involved in "the scene" myself, but, whatever flaws AFed might have, I don't think you can blame them for the bus stop wankers. In fact the Bus Stop Affinity lot specifically slag off the AFed except for Bristol in their statement as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Asking as someone who hasn't been involved for a couple of years, would it be fair to say that groups are still as divided as ever on trans issues?  I'm sort of thinking about the AFED/ACG split, but the movement such as it is more generally?  As an example I just found this on the AFED website, denouncing antifascist groups and the ACG.  The language and divisions look to be exactly as they were 3 or 4 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you just wanted to breathe some new life into this one


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I just found this on the AFED website,


It’s not from AFed, though.  It’s from a very strange - and defunct - group (numbers unknown) who seemed to think that breaking a bus shelter was an “action”.  What their aims in so doing remains unclear.

I don’t think anyone paid any attention to the statement.


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

There's divisions, but not sure how much they play out in reality, especially in real life rather than on social media. The whole thing is still fucking poisonous though, and on the individual and personal level I still see people behave really badly over it.

That website looks fucking awful, although it's not a patch on how bad that statement is. It's Exhibit A in why anarchism looks mad and pointless to most people. The AF looks like it's been take over by messed-up teenagers with bad design skills tbh.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 24, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That website looks fucking awful, although it's not a patch on how bad that statement is. It's Exhibit A in why anarchism looks mad and pointless to most people. The AF looks like it's been take over by messed-up teenagers with bad design skills tbh.


I don’t think it’s AFed.  Anarchist news from 300+ collectives 🏴 AnarchistFederation.net


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

If I were in a bitchy mood, I might point out that you can tell it's definitely not the official AF site, because it seems to have some quite recent articles posted on it. (Although tbf it looks like the Organise magazine site is updated more than the official AF one?)

Also, if we're getting into slagging off the scene/swamp whatever, I unfortunately got dragged into reading far too much UK anarcho swamp social media stuff yesterday, still thinking about this blazing hot take from a person with very strong views about the bookfair:


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I unfortunately got dragged into reading far too much UK anarcho swamp social media stuff yesterday,


That’ll learn you.


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

Like, trains are just oppressive in their conformism to efficient capitalist linear routes man. In an anarchist utopia we'll refuse such horrors and journeys will drift like our dreams and the wind; never arriving, and maybe never even departing. Until the last train guard is hung with the guts of the last ticket collector nobody will be free comrades.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 24, 2021)

A380 said:


> Get with the programme dadio. Like the cool kids. You too could be hip like me.





danny la rouge said:


> Sadly, I’m almost exactly as hip as you.  Which is to say, not at all.


You're probably closer to hip replacement.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 24, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> You're probably closer to hip replacement.


Something about ultrasound.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Something about ultrasound.


should be a band


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> should be a band


This means nothing to me


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> This means nothing to me


i bet you've spent some meaningful time with a viennetta


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s not from AFed, though.  It’s from a very strange - and defunct - group (numbers unknown) who seemed to think that breaking a bus shelter was an “action”.  What their aims in so doing remains unclear.
> 
> I don’t think anyone paid any attention to the statement.


Cheers. Yeah, I got that the bus stoppists weren't AFED, I was just confused about it appearing on what looked like an AFED site. Thanks to  hitmouse clearing that up.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

'We smashed a bus stop window'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Like, trains are just oppressive in their conformism to efficient capitalist linear routes man. In an anarchist utopia we'll refuse such horrors and journeys will drift like our dreams and the wind; never arriving, and maybe never even departing. Until the last train guard is hung with the guts of the last ticket collector nobody will be free comrades.


ALL I SAID WAS 'SORRY MATE, THIS TRAIN IS GOING TO PENZANCE, IF YOU WANT BIRMINGHAM YOU NEED A DIFFERENT PLATFORM'


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'We smashed a bus stop window'


Take that!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'We smashed a bus stop window'


now i have that in my head to the tune of 'i kissed a girl'


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Take that!
> View attachment 284992


gary barlow's really aged badly


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

'Right, let's select a target. Something that embodies the very worst of private transport and it's contribution to climate change'

- what about bus stops?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i bet you've spent some meaningful time with a viennetta


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'Right, let's select a target. Something that embodies the very worst of private transport and it's contribution to climate change'
> 
> - what about bus stops?


Modern day anarchists. They probably left an apology and their name and address on an IOU.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Modern day anarchists. They probably left an apology and their name and address on an IOU.


I imagine their wait for the bus home was a bit drafty.


----------



## A380 (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'Right, let's select a target. Something that embodies the very worst of private transport and it's contribution to climate change'
> 
> - what about bus stops?



A manifesto cover earlier


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Asking as someone who hasn't been involved for a couple of years, would it be fair to say that groups are still as divided as ever on trans issues?  I'm sort of thinking about the AFED/ACG split, but the movement such as it is more generally?  As an example I just found this on the AFED website, denouncing antifascist groups and the ACG.  The language and divisions look to be exactly as they were 3 or 4 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



“We called out many groups in the U.K. leftist scene for their shitty behaviour only for us to be attacked and ignored because of it.”

bless them


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

The bus stop wankers episode suggests the anarkids ambitions have gone downhill even since the Battle of the Coronet ('we want to play our music daddio'):





__





						Anarchy after Book Fair - The Society of Young Publishers
					

The 24th Anarchist Bookfair was held at London’s Voluntary Sector Resource Centre on London’s Holloway Road last Saturday. As the conference closed police responded to a call from the landlord […]




					thesyp.org.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> The bus stop wankers episode suggests the anarkids ambitions have gone downhill even since the Battle of the Coronet ('we want to play our music daddio'):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the battle of holloway road


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

nvm, beaten to it


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> “We called out many groups in the U.K. leftist scene for their shitty behaviour only for us to be attacked and ignored because of it.”
> 
> bless them


Not as obviously funny as some of the other highlights, but their bit on their relationship to anarcho-communists is also quite dryly amusing:
"We quickly recognised that our politics are quite different from the other groups in the U.K. left. We have stated many times throughout this project that we are not a revolutionary group. We do not care about the revolution... We made it very clear we were neither anarcho-communists or anarcho-syndicalist and we have wondered if maybe this was the reason our local ancoms chose to ignore us... [We] received almost no support from anarcho-communists in the scene. Ancoms have repeatedly ignored us and our achievements just because we do not do it in the name of communism."
WHY IS IT THAT ANARCHIST COMMUNISTS WON'T PUT MORE OF THEIR TIME AND EFFORT INTO SUPPORTING PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY AREN'T ANARCHIST COMMUNISTS? IT'S SO UNFAIR!!!


----------



## A380 (Aug 24, 2021)

All this fuss about a book fair. Couldn’t anarchists just get their books off Amazon like everyone else?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 24, 2021)

A380 said:


> All this fuss about a book fair. Couldn’t anarchists just get their books off Amazon like everyone else?


_Bezos - Space Wanker! _


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'Right, let's select a target. Something that embodies the very worst of private transport and it's contribution to climate change'
> 
> - what about bus stops?



I'm sure there was talk of Chris Morris doing a 'Four Lions' take on anarchists at some point. It'd be ripe for it, especially some of the insurrectionists...


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm sure there was talk of Chris Morris doing a 'Four Lions' take on anarchists at some point. It'd be ripe for it, especially some of the insurrectionists...



You could just straight up repeat the bits with eating the sim cards tbf. "Bomb the TUC, radicalise the moderates!"


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 24, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Rhyddical any idea what's going on here?


I note that Rhyddical has visited since that question was asked on Friday.  They are presumably checking.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 24, 2021)

When I was in my late teens and first getting involved in political activity I recall taking part in some fairly pointless and dumb activity, and almost certainly said some stupid shit as I did so. I also recall encountering quite a few older and more 'seasoned' militants who I thought were not just patronising gits but useless patronising gits. Looking back decades later I don't think much of some of the stuff I got up to but I still don't see any reason to revise my opinions about some of my 'betters'.

Hadn't looked at the AFED sites for a long time. When I got to the Organise site just now I was greeted with this.







Between that and the ACG wanting me to pay to read stuff I guess I'll just have to continue wallowing in blissful ignorance


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 24, 2021)

Oh dear, having to pay for a pamphlet? The very idea!


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 24, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> the ACG wanting me to pay to read stuff


Only pamphlets, you freeloader!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I note that Rhyddical has visited since that question was asked on Friday.  They are presumably checking.


checking their notes


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I note that Rhyddical has visited since that question was asked on Friday.  They are presumably checking.



It's really short notice for them to be coming back to the ACG and saying whatever it is they're going to say either way. Surely if you're putting on a Bookfair you'd notice they were missing and chase them up asking if they want a stall or something? Or you answer the emails and explain what's going on either way, like all the stall slots have been booked or whatever?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> checking their notes


Are you suggesting that Loose Meat is now running the bookfair?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Are you suggesting that Loose Meat is now running the bookfair?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 24, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Only pamphlets, you freeloader!


I'm not really criticising. (Although I do notice that despite highlighting the extremely serious issues facing us pensioners in your Grey Panther bulletin, the ACG doesn't offer a pensioner discount on its pamphlets).

Actually my thinking doesn't start from the cost but from the consideration that I have too many hard copy publications already, and seriously need to reduce their number. In any decision to add to the problem the primary question is how much I want to read the text in question. I guess it's a bit like music that's only released on limited edition vinyl. I also have too many vinyl records. In practise I know that interesting stuff will eventually get bootlegged somewhere in a digital format. There is a vinyl only album of unreleased James Brown tracks that hasn't turned up yet, and I've felt myself weakening a little. But James Brown music, which generally puts me in a good mood, is one thing. The ACG on Identity Politics, a subject that generally succeeds in making me very grumpy, is another.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 24, 2021)

Perhaps a James Brown tribute act singing the ACG pamphlet, recorded on vinyl natch, is the way forward on this whole contentious issue.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 24, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> Actually my thinking doesn't start from the cost but from the consideration that I have too many hard copy publications already, and seriously need to reduce their number. In any decision to add to the problem the primary question is how much I want to read the text in question. I guess it's a bit like music that's only released on limited edition vinyl. I also have too many vinyl records. In practise I know that interesting stuff will eventually get bootlegged somewhere in a digital format. There is a vinyl only album of unreleased James Brown tracks that hasn't turned up yet, and I've felt myself weakening a little. But James Brown music, which generally puts me in a good mood, is one thing. The ACG on Identity Politics, a subject that generally succeeds in making me very grumpy, is another.


FTR I think most of the pamphlets are actually available in digital format - certainly the _Compendium of Capital_ is.

Totally agree with you about hard vs digital though. I'm more and more in favour of digital, not only with space but also readability, being able to change text size (and more) is great


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 26, 2021)

I suppose there could be another big point of contention at the upcoming bookfair, I've just checked their covid policy and it says:


> As a result of uncertainty and the constantly changing situation with regards to Covid related risks, we will be monitoring the scientific advice regularly and updating this page. Please check this page again closer to the date.
> 
> Our priority is to manage the risk of COVID-19. As such we might have the completely cancel the in-person event at very short notice, or introduce varying degrees of restrictions and limits.
> 
> ...


That all sounds pretty reasonable to me, but I would guess there might be some potential attendees who might differ. It will be kind of funny if there are anarchists kicking off about not wanting to wear masks though.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2021)

We're just trying to do our best the THOUGHT POLICE everyone as best as we can and as we know THE REAL ANARCHISTS are these EDL come Freemen of the landders who think masks are a conspirocy to psycologically oppress us, vaccines are a plot to mutute us into lizard people (truly) and that rebellion is defined by loudly pontificating about how ignorant you are, how all of medical science is a lie and that you know better coz that one youtube video that red pilled you. There is by the way, a massive cross section with Incels, Terfs and Alt-Right cockwombles... so yeah, they ain't welcome x


----------



## LDC (Aug 27, 2021)

Thanks for that. Any idea what's going with a stall for the ACG though? They've been in touch and had no reply apparently. Missed their email?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 27, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> There is by the way, a massive cross section with Incels, Terfs and Alt-Right cockwombles... so yeah, they ain't welcome x


Yeah. Feminists and Incels always get on really well together


----------



## Wilf (Aug 27, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> We're just trying to do our best the THOUGHT POLICE everyone as best as we can and as we know THE REAL ANARCHISTS are these EDL come Freemen of the landders who think masks are a conspirocy to psycologically oppress us, vaccines are a plot to mutute us into lizard people (truly) and that rebellion is defined by loudly pontificating about how ignorant you are, how all of medical science is a lie and that you know better coz that one youtube video that red pilled you. There is by the way, a massive cross section with Incels, Terfs and Alt-Right cockwombles... so yeah, they ain't welcome x


Using the formula for Pi, I've worked out that if you take the third, first and fourth letter of the third, first and fourth word, then run it through the Enigma Machine and the Cerne Particle Accelerator, that says '_no, the ACG can't have a stal_l'.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 27, 2021)

Pamphlets... Spats... seems like a good moment to settle in and read the ACG Politics of Division that I've just got in the post.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 27, 2021)

The poster for the Anarchistbookfair in London 2021 for those curious.

BTW The Enigma Machine is only for twelth dan Anarchists and I don;t recall seeing your name in the Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night big book of members... Bloody anarckiddies can't keep their anarsecrets. Thank fuck we sorted out the red guard everyone was concern about last year ;p


----------



## LDC (Aug 27, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> View attachment 285478
> 
> 
> The poster for the Anarchistbookfair in London 2021 for those curious.
> ...



Thanks for that. Any idea what's going with a stall for the ACG though? They've been in touch and had no reply apparently. Missed their email?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 27, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Thanks for that. Any idea what's going with a stall for the ACG though? They've been in touch and had no reply apparently. Missed their email?


s.  E-mails.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 27, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Pamphlets... Spats...


What, have the Spatacist League got a stall now?

There's a part of me that's still wondering if the bookfair collective will eventually come out with "Dear The ACG, in line with the best traditions of anarchism, we have committed to only stocking material that has a maximum of one title and one subtitle. It has come to our attention that you have published a pamphlet that essentially has three different titles, and therefore..."


----------



## Wilf (Aug 27, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> View attachment 285478
> 
> 
> The poster for the Anarchistbookfair in London 2021 for those curious.
> ...


You might not want to do another public round on this thread, but I'd have thought that comrades in the ACG deserved a straightforward reply.


----------



## LDC (Aug 27, 2021)

Wilf said:


> You might not want to do another public round on this thread, but I'd have thought that comrades in the ACG deserved a straightforward reply.



Not just the ACG, if the Anarchist Bookfair are refusing an established anarchist group a stall they need to explain why publicly. And why they haven't replied to their repeated emails.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 27, 2021)

Yeah, there is a part of me that thinks that ultimately, it's the bookfair organisers' event, so up to them who they want to invite or not invite, people who would like a differently-run event are free to organise a different one and so on. But if they have actually made a decision that the ACG aren't compatible with the politics they want to promote, they should be able to explain and defend that decision.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 27, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not just the ACG, if the Anarchist Bookfair are refusing an established anarchist group a stall they need to explain why publicly. And why they haven't replied to their repeated emails.





LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not just the ACG, if the Anarchist Bookfair are refusing an established anarchist group a stall they need to explain why publicly. And why they haven't replied to their repeated emails.


Yep. I didn't want to make this a 'generational' thing, but the ACG is a group of people with a long history of working class activism. Depressing and shabby.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 27, 2021)

How can it be "anarchist christmas" without charlie mowbray danny la rouge and/or* Serge Forward handing out the festive ACG cheer and multi-titled pamphlets to all the excited anarchist kids?

*recallable delegates


----------



## belboid (Aug 27, 2021)

I am looking forward to the meeting on ‘Why editors are a bourgeois construct’.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 27, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am looking forward to the meeting on ‘Why editors are a bourgeois construct’.


They always try to limit the number of titles the proletariat want.


----------



## Sue (Aug 27, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> How can it be "anarchist christmas" without charlie mowbray danny la rouge and/or* Serge Forward handing out the festive ACG cheer and multi-titled pamphlets *to all the excited anarchist kid*s?
> 
> *recallable delegates


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> What, have the Spatacist League got a stall now?
> 
> There's a part of me that's still wondering if the bookfair collective will eventually come out with "Dear The ACG, in line with the best traditions of anarchism, we have committed to only stocking material that has a maximum of one title and one subtitle. It has come to our attention that you have published a pamphlet that essentially has three different titles, and therefore..."


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 27, 2021)

Sue said:


>


I thought people didn’t want to make it generational. 😡


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 27, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I thought people didn’t want to make it generational. 😡


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 27, 2021)

Just popping by to say thanks for this statement: Statements - Anarchist Communist Group. It means a lot in the current environment.

Perhaps next year we'll get to meet up at a bookfair again properly, not really keen on making the journey to London this time around, and well, whilst I'm true to my politics as always, this last few years has somewhat soured how I feel about stuff x


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 27, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Just popping by to say thanks for this statement: Statements - Anarchist Communist Group. It means a lot in the current environment.
> 
> Perhaps next year we'll get to meet up at a bookfair again properly, not really keen on making the journey to London this time around, and well, whilst I'm true to my politics as always, this last few years has somewhat soured how I feel about stuff x


Hi stethoscope Good to see you around. Keep strong! 🤜🤛


----------



## LDC (Aug 29, 2021)

So no answer then Rhyddical?

Or has the ACG been contacted and it's all been resolved?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 29, 2021)

Put it in an email 😐


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2021)

Rhyddical , it's hard putting on big events and it's hard dealing with groups who might or might not be acceptable.  But treating the ACG like this is a bit shabby, unless of course you've already replied to them.  Working class politics is fucked at the moment and things are really stuck.  You need to at least communicate if you are refusing an established group the right to participate in the bookfair.  You might be busy, but you did log on today so you know there are questions for you.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2021)

Ooops. dp.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 29, 2021)

You ain't gonna get an answer out of him.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> You ain't gonna get an answer out of him.


Suspect you are right, it's just a bit shit that things have come to this.

Last year Rhyddical you posted this.  I'd have thought your view of the ACG should be the underlined. But in refusing them a stall, you seem to be including them under the bolded bit in the first paragraph.  If that's your position, you could at least say so. 



Rhyddical said:


> I mean I'm sorry you seem not to be aware but trans rights acitivsts and anarchist comrades in general are talking to people within the class, arguments are (rather obviously) being had, people are being convinced and shown the error of their ways. In short, we are working together and struggled together within our class, at work and in everyday life... *Just af National Front puppets were excluding from the arguments on race, the bigots at the prominance of transphobic abuse arn't welcome*. *that is literally the be all and end all of our policy and I'm not sure why for some that is so difficult to grasp* and is being reduced down ya'll are sudo anarchist authoritarian liberals youth spoiling da scene on a thread which numerous times has had outright transphobia and a scary tolerance for dogwhistles and bigotted talking points that too few of the U75 community seem keen to counter act.
> 
> If you aint a prominant bigot well known for atagonism and abuse, even if you have opinions and beliefs we might disagree with, provided you can respect the space and saftey of your anarchist comrades, you are welcome.
> 
> ...


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> You might be busy, but you did log on today so you know there are questions for you.


Yeah, they’re not so busy that they don’t know there’s a question to answer.  It does now seem to be a deliberate decision to blank us.  It’s pretty cowardly to not be able to state that and explain to us or the public why.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

I am holding back with this to give the Bookfair group and Rhyddical another chance to respond, but it's not looking very good... it's shit politics, cowardly, and lazy at the very least.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

It's hard to not think that they _have _excluded the ACG on some level (even if informally) but they're struggling to admit that as the obvious next question is why they've done this, and they'd be unable to justify it as they've done it themselves from some vague personal feeling rather than any actual good political reason they can argue in public.

E2A: Be very happy to be proved wrong, and this is just some nuclear level incompetence or some weird teenage scene drama that they aren't able to manage.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 30, 2021)

In my experience which is admittedly out of date anarchist groups dont respond quickly to other far left groups for 2 reasons. 

1. The people dealing with correspondence are shit and unreliable (and that was often me.)
2. There is an internal disagreement on how to respond. I imagine that some people in the collective want ACG at Covidfest, some don't want you there and some don't care and neither pole has won the majority yet.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> In my experience which is admittedly out of date anarchist groups dont respond quickly to other far left groups for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. The people dealing with correspondence are shit and unreliable (and that was often me.)
> 2. There is an internal disagreement on how to respond. I imagine that some people in the collective want ACG at Covidfest, some don't want you there and some don't care and neither pole has won the majority yet.



1) Would be understandable, but Rhyddical has been on here and typed long stuff since this question has come up.
2) Then fucking explain that situation, it's pretty simple and normal behaviour to do so.

So neither are good reasons imo.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 30, 2021)

It's a deliberate provocation. Like sticking their tongue out.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> In my experience which is admittedly out of date anarchist groups dont respond quickly to other far left groups for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. The people dealing with correspondence are shit and unreliable (and that was often me.)
> 2. There is an internal disagreement on how to respond. I imagine that some people in the collective want ACG at Covidfest, some don't want you there and some don't care and neither pole has won the majority yet.


You'd think that they'd adopt minimum standards for communication and customer care in this day and age


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It's a deliberate provocation. Like sticking their tongue out.


But not quite so mature.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You'd think that they'd adopt minimum standards for communication and customer care in this day and age


'_Could Rhyddical come to the customer service desk. Customer waiting_'.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

"Thank you for contacting the London Anarchist Bookfair. We are currently receiving very high volumes of emails from customers and we are dealing with these as quickly as we can, to help us to do this please do not send any more emails to us to find out what has happened to your enquiry.

We will only send you a reply by email where we need more information from you. If you have provided all the information we need to process the change you will not receive a response by email. We will process your enquiry and send you a revised bill or refund. We will do this as soon as we can.

We will aim to put a hold on any recovery action whilst we deal with your enquiry, although there will be occasions when this is not always possible."

Anyone know how the SPGB and ICC are getting on?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Aside from LDC's nuclear level incompetence caveat, this is really shit for the movement.  Hard to tell as they are not engaging, but by refusing a stall and going on their own criteria, they are saying the ACG is transphobic.  Again, they have the chance to offer a clarification on that point.  That's, gah...  lots of things.  It feels like some entirely wrong kind of politics that can come to such a conclusion. It leaves trans and gender identity issues as something that can be reduced to a single formula, a definition that they 'own'.  It also avoids any kind of mature engagement with ACG statement posted upthread.  

I'm not in the ACG and only know what I've read about the 2018 (?) split.  Might have missed all kinds of things, but what kind of politics has lead to ACG comrades being classed as 'unacceptable'?  Pretty much a case study in how identity politics works.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> But not quite so mature.



It has the advantage of being a clear communication.


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2021)

There is an outside chance I'll be able to go this year. But if they're being dicks I don't think I'll bother.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

Perhaps there could be a handy waiver questionnaire build into the contact form?


Do you have a physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict; or do you currently have any of the following diseases: Cholera, Diphtheria, Tuberculosis infectious, Plague, Smallpox, Yellow Fever, Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers, including Ebola, Lassa, Marburg, Crimean-Congo, Severe acute respiratory illnesses capable of transmission to other persons and likely to cause mortality, Bolshevism, Menshevism, syndicalism or platformism?
Have you ever been accused of, condemned for, or seen within a 20 mile vicinity of someone else so accused or condemned, crimes against the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair?
Have you ever violated any New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair rules related to possessing, using, or distributing proscribed pamphlets?
Do you seek to engage in or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities, espionage, sabotage, or getting into an online spat with a New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair organiser?
Have you ever committed fraud or misrepresented yourself or others to obtain, or assist others to obtain, a table at New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair?
Are you currently seeking a table in the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair or were you previously seeking a table in the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair without prior permission from the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair organising group?
Have you ever been denied a table you applied for with your current or previous group, or have you ever been refused admission to the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair or withdrawn your application for admission to the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair?
Have you ever stayed in the nearest Wetherspoons to the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair longer than the period granted to you by the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair organising group?
Have you travelled to, or been present in any branch of Wetherspoons in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, North Korea or Yemen on or after March 1, 2011?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm not in the ACG and only know what I've read about the 2018 (?) split.  Might have missed all kinds of things, but what kind of politics has lead to ACG comrades being classed as 'unacceptable'?  Pretty much a case study in how identity politics works.


i dont know what happened, would like to if anyone can fill me in, but dragging up these things isnt necessarily the best i appreciate that - however if its led to some cancelling going on then thats another level beyond an internal split


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 1) Would be understandable, but Rhyddical has been on here and typed long stuff since this question has come up.
> 2) Then fucking explain that situation, it's pretty simple and normal behaviour to do so.
> 
> So neither are good reasons imo.



I didn't say they're good explanations nevertheless I'd put money on 2 being the reason.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont know what happened, would like to if anyone can fill me in, but dragging up these things isnt necessarily the best i appreciate that - however if its led to some cancelling going on then thats another level beyond an internal split


Very much not "an insider" myself, in a similar position to Wilf really, but fwiw here's the ACG's founding statement: Class Struggle Anarchist Statement on Bookfair Events and Aftermath - Anarchist Communist Group (not saying whether they'd still agree with every word of that or if they'd phrase some bits differently now.)

I am guessing that some people around the new bookfair would see the matters described in that statement in a different light, but if they're not actually saying anything then who knows?  🤷‍♂️


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Instead of leaving everyone to guess, the Bookfair committee could just briefly explain themselves.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont know what happened, would like to if anyone can fill me in, but dragging up these things isnt necessarily the best i appreciate that - however if its led to some cancelling going on then thats another level beyond an internal split


It's one of those situations where it really isn't worth having 'the debate' again, at least on this thread.  But then if the ACG have been actively excluded, the onus is on the organisers to say why.  This isn't about excluding a bunch of cranks of trots. Who would have thought, say 10 years ago, that it would be possible to have a bookfair that (seemingly) excludes a group like the ACG.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 30, 2021)

When you've successfully removed all heresy you can't just stop there. You have to go looking for more heresy, traces of heresy, potential heresy, heresy yet to come. Oh, and those who might tolerate heresy or allow discussion of incipient heretical opinion. You become a heresyphobe.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> When you've successfully removed all heresy you can't just stop there. You have to go looking for more heresy, traces of heresy, potential heresy, heresy yet to come. Oh, and those who might tolerate heresy or allow discussion of incipient heretical opinion. You become a heresyphobe.


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> "Thank you for contacting the London Anarchist Bookfair. We are currently receiving very high volumes of emails from customers and we are dealing with these as quickly as we can, to help us to do this please do not send any more emails to us to find out what has happened to your enquiry.
> 
> We will only send you a reply by email where we need more information from you. If you have provided all the information we need to process the change you will not receive a response by email. We will process your enquiry and send you a revised bill or refund. We will do this as soon as we can.
> 
> ...


WTF does that penultimate paragraph about "recovery action" mean?

As a curious but not really involved outsider, it looks to me as if these "organisers" have failed at the most basic level of organisational competency. 

This question may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but does anyone in the wider anarchist movement know who they are? Do they have any background in successfully organising similar events or are they, as is becoming increasingly apparent, just a bunch of incompetent chancers?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

I think that the levels of speculation and second guessing on this thread are now, understandably, becoming slightly excessive.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

Reading pages 60 plus and comparing them to pages 1-60 is quite educational.

Honestly I'm suprised the discussion their year hasn't been about our masks policy. Is U75 the only place the tinfoil hat wankstains haven't infected with their ersatz libertarian anti-mask knobbery?

tho someone did mention the policy and someone else said Covidfest. It's a difficult one and frankly the thing we've debated most these past few months.

Attached, artist impression of our door security.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> WTF does that penultimate paragraph about "recovery action" mean?
> 
> As a curious but not really involved outsider, it looks to me as if these "organisers" have failed at the most basic level of organisational competency.
> 
> This question may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but does anyone in the wider anarchist movement know who they are? Do they have any background in successfully organising similar events or are they, as is becoming increasingly apparent, just a bunch of incompetent chancers?


I'm similarly uninvolved at the moment though I do think the current organisers are 'legitimate' fwiw.  The previous collective got sick of the flack they took after the 2017 bookair (unfair criticism from what I saw, but that's by the by).  They then said that someone else could take on the, ahem, 'brand', leading to the current lot doing it.  I'm sure it was more complicated than that though.  As to people knowing who they are within the movement, I dunno, but suspect they are.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Reading pages 60 plus and comparing them to pages 1-60 is quite educational.
> 
> Honestly I'm suprised the discussion their year hasn't been about our masks policy. Is U75 the only place the tinfoil hat wankstains haven't infected with their ersatz libertarian anti-mask knobbery?
> 
> ...


How about just answering the question? If it's a no why not come out with it?


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> WTF does that penultimate paragraph about "recovery action" mean?
> 
> As a curious but not really involved outsider, it looks to me as if these "organisers" have failed at the most basic level of organisational competency.
> 
> This question may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but does anyone in the wider anarchist movement know who they are? Do they have any background in successfully organising similar events or are they, as is becoming increasingly apparent, just a bunch of incompetent chancers?




Not sure this text is from us lol, if it is, we've clearly forgotten about it since something like early 2020 when we stopped using "London Anarchist Bookfair" lol... 

We may or may not infact be incompetant chances tho... I mean, isn't that all that Anarchism is? People seeing a window and taking chances, usually when you start doing something you are incompetant at it, then you get better and better. Sometimes you make gaffs, sometimes people disagree with something or do understand something and get pissy coz they arn't "in the know" but you chug chug along and keep developing your skills.

Certainly last year, when we started, the collective was mostly formed of very inexperianced people, we not only set up a huge in person bookfair but cancelled it at the last check and ended up putting on one of the largest digital bookfairs in the world. 

Despite having "Anarchist" in the name tho, people seem to think we're a service industry and have to bend to their entitlement, we had so much of this last year with people being very frosty with us for stating that certain transphobes are not welcome. People get really angry when you say you cant come to their party and they forget about concepts like free association. I mean this is back in 2020, people this year have been much less inclined to idle speculation based on unfair assumptions that we're just a bunch of incompetant chances who are probably hiering the thought police as we speak.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical When I read anarchist in the name I take it to be some sort of claim to be part of a particular political heritage and if you're doing that it's not unreasonable to expect a certain basic level of political standards in your behaviour, like giving a straight answer to an established group.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> WTF does that penultimate paragraph about "recovery action" mean?


Oh, to be clear, that's not a real email from the bookfair organisers, that was just me copying and pasting an email the council sent me when I had a question about my council tax bill. The point being that it was a bit shit the council about a month to respond to me, but at least they managed to send me an email saying "we've received your query and will take ages to respond but we will respond at some point". Apologies for any confusion caused there.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm similarly uninvolved at the moment though I do think the current organisers are 'legitimate' fwiw.  The previous collective got sick of the flack they took after the 2017 bookair (unfair criticism from what I saw, but that's by the by).  They then said that someone else could take on the, ahem, 'brand', leading to the current lot doing it.  I'm sure it was more complicated than that though.  As to people knowing who they are within the movement, I dunno, but suspect they are.



There are 6/7 of us, given the fact that some of us were doxxed during the hostility last year, we are less than keen to reveal identities. We're not just randoms tho like you say, and there are several people on this thread who know us by name and share contacts with us.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Despite having "Anarchist" in the name tho, people seem to think we're a service industry and have to bend to their entitlement, we had so much of this last year with people being very frosty with us for stating that certain transphobes are not welcome. People get really angry when you say you cant come to their party and they forget about concepts like free association.


OK, so to be clear, are you saying that that's how you would describe the ACG, and that they're not welcome?


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 30, 2021)

Threads gone a bit weird


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 30, 2021)

What’s the issue with the ACG? Always seemed like a pleasant bunch


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> OK, so to be clear, are you saying that that's how you would describe the ACG, and that they're not welcome?



Don't know what you mean, I'm talking about 2020.


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical, can you provide a straight answer to a simple question, please: Why has the ACG been denied a stall at the forthcoming event?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Don't know what you mean, I'm talking about 2020.


OK. In case you'd missed it, the ACG have applied for a stall for the 2021 bookfair and seem to have not received a reply yet, and several people are curious as to whether they have a stall or not, and if not why not.

In other news, sure it's been posted upthread, but in case anyone's in West Yorkshire and is unaware, the Bradford bookfair is this weekend:


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

Oh thanks for reminding me to post promo for Bradford bookfair, it's on a post it not in front of me, but I just woke up and have yet to fuel with tea.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Not sure this text is from us lol, if it is, we've clearly forgotten about it since something like early 2020 when we stopped using "London Anarchist Bookfair" lol...
> 
> We may or may not infact be incompetant chances tho... I mean, isn't that all that Anarchism is? People seeing a window and taking chances, usually when you start doing something you are incompetant at it, then you get better and better. Sometimes you make gaffs, sometimes people disagree with something or do understand something and get pissy coz they arn't "in the know" but you chug chug along and keep developing your skills.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned a couple of posts back, your group took on the bookfair 'legitimately'.  Taking on and running an event also gives you certain rights to decide who gets in and who doesn't, though I'd argue you should be doing that with an awareness of anarchist traditions.  Okay, you've set up a 'terf exclusionary policy' (let's not argue about the semantics) and again, it's your gig.  What concerns me in this specific case is that you are not able to demonstrate why you think the ACG _are _transphobic.  What's your response to the ACG statement mentioned upthread?


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

WTF is with the ridiculous and tbh fucking insulting avoidance of the question?

And fuck off with the idiotic 'we're not a service industry' bollocks as well. If you put on an anarchist bookfair in London, and then refuse a well-established and respected anarchist group a stall (if that's what you're doing) you _do_ owe them and other anarchists a decent public explanation as to why.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

It's a pointed non-answer by now. Pathetic.


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Oh, to be clear, that's not a real email from the bookfair organisers, that was just me copying and pasting an email the council sent me when I had a question about my council tax bill. The point being that it was a bit shit the council about a month to respond to me, but at least they managed to send me an email saying "we've received your query and will take ages to respond but we will respond at some point". Apologies for any confusion caused there.


OK, apologies for misunderstanding and responding as if it was from the organisers themselves. 

I do still think if the real organisers focused a little more on their "core mission" of actually organising the bookfair and a little less on trying to cunt off phantom enemies with incoherent gibberish like many of Rhyddical 's posts on this thread, the wider movement might be better served.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Oh thanks for reminding me to post promo for Bradford bookfair, it's on a post it not in front of me, but I just woke up and have yet to fuel with tea.


I get it now. You were still asleep during your earlier posts. Then you woke up and it was all a dream. I'd have a strong coffee.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> People get really angry when you say you cant come to their party


So there are people who you actually tell that to, rather than just repeatedly ignore?


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

It's a bit shocking and a sorry reflection on them and their politics that revolutionaries who desire to destroy the State and capital seem scared or are too incompetent or for some unknown other reason are refusing to answer a simple question from other anarchists. Quite weird tbh.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> OK, apologies for misunderstanding and responding as if it was from the organisers themselves.
> 
> I do still think if the real organisers focused a little more on their "core mission" of actually organising the bookfair and a little less on trying to cunt off phantom enemies with incoherent gibberish like many of Rhyddical 's posts on this thread, the wider movement might be better served.




Whilst I might be one for tilting at windmills and spewing inherent gibberish on occasion, I'm not sure who you mean by phantom enemies.

I mean do you mean to say that transphobes, fascists, anti maskers and other assorted folk are mearly incorporeal energies? I mean they exist mate, I've seen them. They are real I tellz you.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

If I was in the ACG I'd turn up and run a stall tbh. Sure plenty of comrades there would be happy to share with you.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Look at them, the transphobic monsters!​


> *Trans Rights Statement*​We, the ACG, reaffirm our support for trans and non-binary people. We recognise the oppression faced by the trans community. In our aims and principles we stress the importance of ending all oppressions as well as an end to capitalism and the State.
> 
> In an anarchist communist society there will continue to be differences between people, a flourishing of diversity as people are freed from the indoctrination and limitations of this society. However, these differences will not mean new hierarchies or inequalities. We fight today against all oppressions and inequality both because of the hardship and suffering it causes and because we need to unite as a class if we are to be effective in our struggles.
> 
> ...


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

I was totally willing to put it down to an oversight or some other kind of incompetence, but Rhyddical being on here and repeatedly refusing to answer the question has made it pretty clear that the ACG don't seem to be welcome to have a stall at their bookfair. Wonder if this extends to them not being welcome to hand out ACG material or anything else like that as well? All we can do is wonder...

Also, what a really fucking sad state of affairs this is. Very depressing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Whilst I might be one for tilting at windows and spewing inherent gibberish on occasion, I'm not sure who you mean by phantom enemies.
> 
> I mean do you mean to say that transphobes, fascists, anti maskers and other assorted folk are mearly incorporeal energies? I mean they exist mate, I've seen them. They are real I tellz you.


Or you could just answer the question: are the ACG invited to the Bookfair you’re running, and if not why not. 

Cheers.


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Whilst I might be one for tilting at windows and spewing inherent gibberish on occasion, I'm not sure who you mean by phantom enemies.
> 
> I mean do you mean to say that transphobes, fascists, anti maskers and other assorted folk are mearly incorporeal energies? I mean they exist mate, I've seen them. They are real I tellz you.


But the amount of time you spend cunting off transphobes, fascists and anti maskers on this thread suggests you think they are actually here in large numbers on this thread.

To that extent, you really are attacking phantoms, and coming across as a complete prick by doing so.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 30, 2021)

It's clear from the silence, they've got the ACG marked as transphobes, are blocking them from a stall, and don't have the courage to say that's why. 
What a load of shite.


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 30, 2021)

What’s anti-maskers got to do with it


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Whilst I might be one for tilting at windmills and spewing inherent gibberish on occasion, I'm not sure who you mean by phantom enemies.
> 
> I mean do you mean to say that transphobes, fascists, anti maskers and other assorted folk are mearly incorporeal energies? I mean they exist mate, I've seen them. They are real I tellz you.


You just can't go beyond this kind of stuff can you? You can't be specific, you can't demonstrate why the ACG breach your policy. 

The anarchist movement in this country ain't up to much at the moment, but you've just firmed up a divided. I'd say you should be ashamed, but if I could get one straight response out of you I'd prefer you to say why you think the ACG are transphobes. Go on, give it a go.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

Angry Workers have offered to share our stall with the ACG, someone's emailed the bookfair and hopefully the ACG.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> But the amount of time you spend cunting off transphobes, fascists and anti maskers on this thread suggests you think they are actually here in large numbers on this thread.
> 
> To that extent, you really are attacking phantoms, and coming across as a complete prick by doing so.




NUKED FOR REASONS


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2021)

Is there a list of who _has_ got a stall anywhere?


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)




----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> View attachment 285952



Thanks


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

FFS.... Just spotted a typo.... FFS incompent anarkiddie! Lol it's not like I earn a living doing this or anything hahaha


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

Awful politics, snide, petulant and cowardly. By all means turn down who you like but have the backbone to come out and say it.


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf hitmouse andysays it appears that Rhyddical is reading your posts (whereas he may have others on ignore), so please would you ask him to clarify:

Why the ACG has been denied a stall?
In particular, whether or not it is because the organisers consider the ACG to be transphobic (which he seems to be hinting at, but falls short of stating)?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> It's clear from the silence, they've got the ACG marked as transphobes, are blocking them from a stall, and don't have the courage to say that's why.
> What a load of shite.


Well, that’s just it isn’t it? We don’t actually know why we’re not invited, because nobody has had the decency to tell us.  In fact that graphic from Rhyddical above is the first confirmation I’ve seen that we don’t have a stall.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Oh, and for the avoidance of doubt, I’m the only ACG member who has posted in the last few pages, except one from charlie mowbray .  The majority of questioning (and speculating) has come from non ACG members.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical why do the Communist Workers Organisation have a stall when they are not anarchists but the ACG do not have one?

(I think both should have a stall personally as I think their politics are both mainly sound. I am not a member of either.)


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Wilf hitmouse andysays it appears that Rhyddical is reading your posts (whereas he may have others on ignore), so please would you ask him to clarify:
> 
> Why the ACG has been denied a stall?
> In particular, whether or not it is because the organisers consider the ACG to be transphobic (which he seems to be hinting at, but falls short of stating)?


Yep, I've asked that directly.  

Rhyddical, as you know, the ACG were part of a long established anarchist group, pre split.  Members have, and continue to, make a contribution to the workers movement in this country and beyond.  They deserve better than this and the movement deserves better.  Equally, putting an event on and actually inviting applications for stalls does come with the responsibility that you reply to those applications.  

Maybe it's too late to get a decent answer from you, but I'll still try:_ is this still about exchanges around the afed/acg split or is there something else you have in mind that makes the acg transphobic?_


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> View attachment 285952


Very disappointed that now or never absent


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Yep, I've asked that directly.
> 
> Rhyddical, as you know, the ACG were part of a long established anarchist group, pre split.  Members have, and continue to, make a contribution to the workers movement in this country and beyond.  They deserve better than this and the movement deserves better.  Equally, putting an event on and actually inviting applications for stalls does come with the responsibility that you reply to those applications.
> 
> Maybe it's too late to get a decent answer from you, but I'll still try:_ is this still about exchanges around the afed/acg split or is there something else you have in mind that makes the acg transphobic?_


Ta


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

And another great omission is ak press


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And another great omission is ak press


Yep and Active Distribution it seems.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

Wonder how many confidential conversations will be conducted at volume in the cops' pub round the corner


----------



## ska invita (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, that’s just it isn’t it? We don’t actually know why we’re not invited, because nobody has had the decency to tell us.  In fact that graphic from Rhyddical above is the first confirmation I’ve seen that we don’t have a stall.


It would be very easy to say I Don't know, Im just a member of a bigger group, I'm not in charge of bookings, but the silence speaks volumes. A real shame this, a lot of time has passed since the last physical bookfair and it offered an opportunity to move on and reconcile.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yep and Active Distribution it seems.


There might be an innocent reasons for those (Inc ak). I hope it's just they didn't want to travel down for it. If it's another snub....


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> ...It's rude when people willfully ignore stuff and very frustrating


And that's exactly what you are continuing to do here on this thread, ignoring to respond to perfectly reasonable requests for information/clarification.


Rhyddical said:


> I should add too, I'm just one member of the collective like, here in a personal capacity, wasting my time sharing the info and answering the questions I can about bookfair. If you think I'm a prick that's fair, but don't stretch that to the rest of the collective


You have chosen to appear on this thread, speaking for or claiming to speak for the collective.

I don't know or care whether you've been delegated to do this, or even if the other members of the collective are aware of your activities, but whether you recognise it or not, whether you like it or not, your performance on this thread inevitably reflects on the whole collective.

And in my opinion it doesn't reflect well on the whole collective that you choose to avoid giving any sort of answer to a simple question, and instead spend your time posting gibberish in an attempt to slag off phantom transphobes who you suggest were posting a couple of years or so ago.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> There might be an innocent reasons for those (Inc ak). I hope it's just they didn't want to travel down for it. If it's another snub....


Absolutely. I‘m still trying to maintain a position that the new organisers be given the benefit of the doubt. And there will be changes, good and bad, with new organisers of anything.

But Rhyddical ‘s failure to engage with people asking genuine and straightforward questions here is very disheartening.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> There might be an innocent reasons for those (Inc ak). I hope it's just they didn't want to travel down for it. If it's another snub....


My understanding is that it's a case of capacity and covid-19 things as it is for certain other ommisions, it's a shame we wont have proper stalls for AK and Active etc tho I think their stuff will be on tables.

Stalls will also be smaller this year due for much the same reason and stall holders limited to 2 per table.

I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> It would be very easy to say I Don't know, Im just a member of a bigger group, I'm not in charge of bookings, but the silence speaks volumes. A real shame this, a lot of time has passed since the last physical bookfair and it offered an opportunity to move on and reconcile.


Precisely, if you're not in a position to say that's a fair enough answer too. This coy bollocks is awful. Hardly Malatesta engaging in comradely forthright disagreement and using the opportunity to advance his own case.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> My understanding is that it's a case of capacity and covid-19 things as it is for certain other ommisions, it's a shame we wont have proper stalls for AK and Active etc tho I think their stuff will be on tables.
> 
> Stalls will also be smaller this year due for much the same reason and stall holders limited to 2 per table.
> 
> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


Your comments are too late now, for me at least. It's clear what's up


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 30, 2021)

Have we had "the bookfair collective cannot comment on individual cases" yet?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> My understanding is that it's a case of capacity and covid-19 things as it is for certain other ommisions, it's a shame we wont have proper stalls for AK and Active etc tho I think their stuff will be on tables.
> 
> Stalls will also be smaller this year due for much the same reason and stall holders limited to 2 per table.
> 
> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


OK this is getting weird now because you’re answering general comments on here about AK and Active (for which, thank you).

But not the direct question several of us have asked about the ACG?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


So the speculation was wide of the mark. That’s something at least. Thanks for confirming that you don’t think we’re transphobic.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I mean the early portion of this tread is rife with transphobia and transphobic dogwhistles. I ended up blocking a lot of the people shovelling it and frankly it was dissapointing how many people who claim not to be transphobic were complicit in it or otherwise engaged in accusation of "red army" and "thought policy" becuase we simply had a policy of supporting the trans members of our community from some quite nasty people. There was also quite a lot of  willfully ignoring it and having selective blinkers.
> It's rude when people willfully ignore stuff and very frustrating, but hey, usually people have their reasons, I try not to judge, and I'm certainly not going to start spewing hostilities at them because of it, certainly didn't see me pick up individuals and getting adversial with them. I mean even if I disagree with their position or manner, I respect my comrades and don't jump to presume.


Fwiw, I wasn't posting here when this thread started, I probably read it as a lurker but have no great enthusiasm to go back and read it again. I realise it can be hard to presume good faith when you don't know me from Adam, so just to explain where I'm coming from: I think it's good that the new bookfair has a policy against transphobia, and if Women's Place, Mayday for Women, LGB Alliance or any similar clowns applied for stalls I think you should tell them to fuck off. Although that's probably me being overly liberal and diplomatic, and I wouldn't object if you wanted to tell them to fuck off and boil their heads, etc, instead.
I am not convinced that the ACG have similar politics to those groups I've listed above, and if you think that they do, and so they should be denied a stall on that grounds, it would be good if you could explain why. Again, I respect that it's your bookfair, and you have full freedom to reject any stalls you like if you don't feel that they have sufficient theoretical and tactical unity with you or whatever, but I also think you should be able to explain your reasoning on this subject.


Rhyddical said:


> My understanding is that it's a case of capacity and covid-19 things as it is for certain other ommisions, it's a shame we wont have proper stalls for AK and Active etc tho I think their stuff will be on tables.
> 
> Stalls will also be smaller this year due for much the same reason and stall holders limited to 2 per table.
> 
> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


OK, it's good that you've clarified that. Do you have a list of stalls you've rejected anywhere, and what the reasons for them are if so?


Also, am I right in thinking that Rebel City is a bulletin that is produced at least in part by London ACG? Does this mean that after all this London ACG will be there as stallholders anyway?


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> So the speculation was wide of the mark. That’s something at least. Thanks for confirming that you don’t think we’re transphobic.


Maybe they're just not that into you, danny


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Also, am I right in thinking that Rebel City is a bulletin that is produced at least in part by London ACG? Does this mean that after all this London ACG will be there as stallholders anyway?


Yes and yes.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe they're just not that into you, danny


And actually that would be fine. Just tell us you’re pissed off with those members who left the AF to form the ACG (incidentally the organisation is now several times that number, and most of us were never AF members), and you can’t properly forgive them.  I’d accept that.


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 30, 2021)

Actually the ACG is now about 4 or 5 times the number of those who split from the AF.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> And actually that would be fine. Just tell us you’re pissed off with those members who left the AF to form the ACG (incidentally the organisation is now several times that number, and most of us were never AF members), and you can’t properly forgive them.  I’d accept that.



Is that what it is? Why are they being such a twat refusing to say that then? Seems simple enough.


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Is that what it is? Why are they being such a twat refusing to say that then? Seems simple enough.


Because it clearly isn't the reason. Let's not give these clowns an easy out.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Also, while I'm reminding Rhyddical about events to promote, the Antiuniversity thing which seems to be cohosting the bookfair starts this weekend. Feel free to plug any and all events related to that, there's some on the 5th that sound quite good imo.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Is that what it is? Why are they being such a twat refusing to say that then? Seems simple enough.


The Anarchist Federation and The Anarchist Bookfair in London are two entirely different organisation (that share a single member) and the neither makes it's decisions based on the interests/will of the other.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

(In passing, there is also a session at the Antiuni that looks extremely fucking dodgy to me and I would be furious if any organisation I was part of suggested hosting it, dunno if bringing that up would be too much of a derail though.)


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> (In passing, there is also a session at the Antiuni that looks extremely fucking dodgy to me and I would be furious if any organisation I was part of suggested hosting it, dunno if bringing that up would be too much of a derail though.)



Not a derail.  Which one?


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2021)

Jeez Rhyddical answer the fecking question about the ACG will ya? I'm neither a member nor supporter (my loyalty lies elsewhere ) but this evasion is really shady looking.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> The Anarchist Federation and The Anarchist Bookfair in London are two entirely different organisation (that share a single member) and the neither makes it's decisions based on the interests/will of the other.



Ok, cool, so it's not that.

So what is it?

Was there something in your _by it's nature _remark? You're encouraging speculation by not answering a direct question that's been put to you politely several times. And it is making you look an arse, and that's not how I remember your posts from last year.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

Is this what they call crytpo-anarchism?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Was there something in your _by it's nature _remark?


Oh, is that one of the ones that means there’s an anagram?


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, is that one of the ones that means there’s an anagram?



I've done better crosswords and yes Danny, I was thinking that a while back. Rhyddical riddles.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Ok, cool, so it's not that.
> 
> So what is it?
> 
> Was there something in your _by it's nature _remark? You're encouraging speculation by not answering a direct question that's been put to you politely several times. And it is making you look an arse, and that's not how I remember your posts from last year.



Yeah, I thought the 'by nature' was bit weird and maybe telling? But we won't know as they refuse to answer any questions on it.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

Venal rather than a mortal sin. Say ten Hail Marys and you can pass out leaflets from behind a curtain on the final afternoon.


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

It's just game-playing. Cowardly and disrespectful.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

ETA: In answer to Athos's question above, they (as in the Antiuniversity, not the Bookfair) have Ramon Elani doing a reading from his new book Wyrd Against the Modern World. The only critical text I know of dealing with Elani's work is unfortunately very very long: Of Indiscriminate Attacks and Wild Reactions: An Anti-Civ Anarchist Engages with ITS and Atassa, their Defenders and Their false Critics

In short, Elani argues that we can learn from pre-colonisation indigenous American societies what a society without the state would look like, which is fine in itself, but he leans very heavily into romanticizing a view of such cultures as being like a Hobbesian state of nature founded on constant violence and so on, which is not so good. In particular:


> The essay that editor Abe Cabrera considers to be the flagship of Atassa is "The Return of the Warrior," by Ramon Elani, a generous and perhaps all-too-credible reading of french political anthropologist Pierre Clastres...
> Elani sums up the main contention of Clastres on page 57 of Atassa: “The thesis that Clastres is best known for is simple: the permanent state of war that one finds in most indigenous societies is a strategy, deliberately employed, to retain territorial segmentation and prevent the development of the State or monolithic culture. Tribal war resists globalization.” He goes on to quote Clastres directly: “The war machine is the motor of the social machine: the primitive social being relies entirely on war, primitive society cannot survive without war. The more war there is, the less unification there is, and the best enemy of the state is war. Primitive society is society against the State in that it is society-for-war.”
> 
> ...
> ...


I don't think that someone who uncritically writes "Such alliances are created and maintained primarily through the exchange of women, who are also accumulated as spoils of war" when describing a society that he sees as a positive model should be welcome... just about anywhere recently. I also just found a newer interview with him where he writes "I will add that I am not a leftist or an anarchist, and that I do not have much affection for either of those worldviews, as I see both as operating within the delusion of progress." So that's fairly unambiguous really.


----------



## JimW (Aug 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> It's just game-playing. Cowardly and disrespectful.


Smacks of a politics/style developed in online spats rather than wider engagement. Might look clever to your faction but in general a straight answer goes down better to a general audience IME.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

I hope the ACG bring along a pasting table and have a stall outside


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

JimW said:


> Smacks of a politics/style developed in online spats rather than wider engagement. Might look clever to your faction but in general a straight answer goes down better to a general audience IME.


Can't belive even that faction think it's clever tbh.  It's just shit.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Need a plan B all this being patient and nice isn’t getting anywhere


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> ETA: In answer to Athos's question above, they (as in the Antiuniversity, not the Bookfair) have Ramon Elani doing a reading from his new book Wyrd Against the Modern World. The only critical text I know of dealing with Elani's work is unfortunately very very long: Of Indiscriminate Attacks and Wild Reactions: An Anti-Civ Anarchist Engages with ITS and Atassa, their Defenders and Their false Critics
> 
> In short, Elani argues that we can learn from pre-colonisation indigenous American societies what a society without the state would look like, which is fine in itself, but he leans very heavily into romanticizing a view of such cultures as being like a Hobbesian state of nature founded on constant violence and so on, which is not so good. In particular:
> 
> I don't think that someone who uncritically writes "Such alliances are created and maintained primarily through the exchange of women, who are also accumulated as spoils of war" when describing a society that he sees as a positive model should be welcome... just about anywhere recently. I also just found a newer interview with him where he writes "I will add that I am not a leftist or an anarchist, and that I do not have much affection for either of those worldviews, as I see both as operating within the delusion of progress." So that's fairly unambiguous really.


Bonkers!


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Need a plan B all this being patient and nice isn’t getting anywhere



I've tried twat and arse.

Tbf twat got a proper response.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Think we need to send ska invita round for a meeting with their head honcho . It was always going to come round to this unfortunately and it’s best we do it sooner than later .


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Think we need to send ska invita round for a meeting with their head honcho . It was always going to come round to this unfortunately and it’s best we do it sooner than later .


Steady on! Nobody wants that!


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Bonkers!


Yeah, if anyone in the London anarcho scene feels like looking for something to kick off about, I'd maybe suggest that investigating how Elani ended up with a workshop might be a bit more pressing than the threat of the ACG having a stall or whatever?

A few more quotes from that article:


> If these bits of pedagogy and rape culture sound suspiciously rather like modern compulsions, imperatives, and fantasies to the critically-minded reader, you should know that Elani agrees with you. After assuring us that “we can say that primitive man is by definition a warrior,”21 he goes on to expound upon the nature of this eternal identity: “Simply put, the warrior’s passion for war stems from his desperate, wild hunger for prestige, honor, and glory. This fact helps us understand the existential dimensions of the act of warring. The warrior can only realize himself if society confers meaning upon him. Prestige is the content of this meaning. The community awards prestige to the warrior in exchange for accomplishing specific exploits, which as we have seen in turn increases the prestige and honor of the community as a whole.”22 And more to the point:
> 
> We have said that scalping an enemy is a requisite for entrance into warrior society but it is only the beginning of his path. The warrior, like Hegel’s slave, is always in a state of becoming. Just as he inherits nothing from the glorious acts of his fathers, with each scalp he takes he must begin again. It does not matter how many scalps a warrior has hanging on the walls of his hut. Once he stops taking scalps, his glory is at an end. The quest and hunger for prestige is a compulsion. Clastres, who correctly places the warrior in an existential context, writes, “the warrior is in essence condemned to forging ahead.” He never has enough scalps. His bloodlust is never quenched. The warrior is thus paradoxically a quintessentially modern figure. He is always dissatisfied and restless. He is a neurotic. He is formed and conditioned by conflicted forces, a soul that yearns for glory but is dependent on a society to recognize and reward it: “for each exploit accomplished, the warrior and society utter the same judgement: the warrior says, That’s good, but I can do more, I can increase my glory. Society says, That’s good, but you should do more, obtain our recognition of superior prestige.” This paradox is all the more acutely felt as the exploits and the glory they confer are exclusively individual. The warrior does not embody a team mentality. It is every man for his own glory.23
> 
> ...


I notice that last year's virtual bookfair did include a talk by Immediatism podcast, a project that host several Elani texts, as well as the equally objectionable Bellamy Fitzpatrick. Will Immediatism be back this year?


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

Reading through this thread a bit more fully. Christ alive the presumption and speculation. Seems mostly geared towards being angry at your own speculation and them getting annoyed at someone who is politely respond where they are able. I'm sorry if you feel offended that I'm not able/keen to provide you with answers to every query, I mean just accept that there maybe things you are not aware about and reasons you might not be informed about it. 

For what it's worth, we received the email from Angry Workers and they'll be responded to accordingly, our next meeting is on Wednesday so I guess after that.

This animosity is entirely one sided, I've not said a single thing about what a big chunk of thread are reaching to imply, I also know for a fact that certain people on this thread have entirely the wrong end of this stick after some unrelated twitter beefing I got dragged into and are acting in an ill-informed and perhaps even consciously bad faith manner. Sure my manner is glib at times, I blame a lack of tea in my life making my a bit salty. Me no ones perfect and I'm certainly no Malatesta lol.

As Anarchists, we should respond to the things we KNOW, not just a culmative pile of idle gossip.

The lack of trust in your comrades is deeply disheartening and many people on the thread need to learn to just accept that they might not be informed and there are things that people can't/won't post of random threads on the internet.

The ONLY reason I am here is because I actually have respect for people in the thread and for 70 pages I've been walking a thin line of providing information while dealing with made up bullshit designed to undermine comrades you'd be better reaching out towards and working with.

U75 is just one a many random forums and tho the bantz are fucking on point, it's also a lot of labour and frankly I'm tired of taking flak personally for such the guff in some of your fantasy lives.

I know I'm just some random glib chatter on a thread to most of you, change that. Come meet me and the rest of the Bookfair crew, have some fucking human interaction and realise that shit on the internet isn't always what it seems. We are your fucking comrades and it'd be nice if you had a little mutual respect and a degree of understanding when things occour that you ain't privy too. Truly, if you give a fuck, come down, enjoy bookfair, tell us what we can do better for the following years, join us for a pint afterwords, put your pointless hostility in the bin where it belongs.

Either way, stop winding yourselves up with speculation.

I'm here for questions about bookfair, I'll answer what I can, there are many things that I won't be going into. Live with it x


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Sounds promising if he is willing to meet Ska . I knew unleashing him would bring about some common sense .


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I've not said a single thing about what a big chunk of thread are reaching to imply.


Yes, I think everyone's noticed that bit.


> The lack of trust in your comrades is deeply disheartening and many people on the thread need to learn to just accept that they might not be informed and there are things that people can't/won't post of random threads on the internet.


Yeah, there's probably better ways of dealing with certain queries. Email, for instance?


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

Of course people are going to speculate ffs. You've gone out of your way to avoid answering a simple question so we haven't been left with any other option apart from shutting up and accepting whatever your mysterious reasons are.

You could have said "I don't know", "They're banned for X", or any number of other reasonable things that would have helped us understand. To now moan about how all this speculation is shit is just pathetic.

Actually lol at your 'come down the bookfair, show some respect, get off the internet bantz' bizzare shit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> For what it's worth, we received the email from Angry Workers and they'll be responded to accordingly, our next meeting is on Wednesday so I guess after that.


So you do respond to emails?


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

_Reasons you may not be informed_

Need to know basis, Reggie, Top Secret, I'm sure you understand


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> OK. In case you'd missed it, the ACG have applied for a stall for the 2021 bookfair and seem to have not received a reply yet, and several people are curious as to whether they have a stall or not, and if not why not.
> 
> In other news, sure it's been posted upthread, but in case anyone's in West Yorkshire and is unaware, the Bradford bookfair is this weekend:



Don't bother with London - Come up to the West Riding and in the words of Mark E Smith -
Leave the Capitol 

Hit The North


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Reading through this thread a bit more fully. Christ alive the presumption and speculation. Seems mostly geared towards being angry at your own speculation and them getting annoyed at someone who is politely respond where they are able. I'm sorry if you feel offended that I'm not able/keen to provide you with answers to every query, I mean just accept that there maybe things you are not aware about and reasons you might not be informed about it.
> 
> For what it's worth, we received the email from Angry Workers and they'll be responded to accordingly, our next meeting is on Wednesday so I guess after that.
> 
> ...


At a more mundane level, people might want to do things like book train tickets and get childcare.  Leaving people to find they are not on the poster isn't the best way to help them plan such things.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Actually lol at your 'come down the bookfair, show some respect, get off the internet bantz' bizzare shit.


Thing is, in 99% of cases I can see the logic behind "don't get all worked up on the internet, have a face-to-face conversation and it'll calm things down instead of fuelling weird drama". But there are exceptions to that, and having a face-to-face conversation in the context of the London bookfair and/or adjacent Wetherspoons feels like one of them.


redsquirrel said:


> Don't bother with London - Come up to the West Riding and in the words of Mark E Smith - Leave the Capitol


Those are Manchester tunes though, surely for the Bradford bookfair you should be posting Hotknives, or at least Gang of Four or something?


----------



## nogojones (Aug 30, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Have we had "the bookfair collective cannot comment on individual cases" yet?


They cannot confirm or deny....


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thing is, in 99% of cases I can see the logic behind "don't get all worked up on the internet, have a face-to-face conversation and it'll calm things down instead of fuelling weird drama". But there are exceptions to that, and having a face-to-face conversation in the context of the London bookfair and/or adjacent Wetherspoons feels like one of them.
> 
> Those are Manchester tunes though, surely for the Bradford bookfair you should be posting Hotknives, or at least Gang of Four or something?


Cadillacs in Bradford


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical In terms of “Come meet me and the rest of the Bookfair crew, have some fucking human interaction and realise that shit on the internet isn't always what it seems.”

I emailed the organising group about attending their meeting when the initial invites went out way back when. Never heard back…

Which is fine. I’m not a well respected national anarchist org.

But you do seem to have an engagement issue.


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> RhyddicalI’m not a well respected national anarchist org.


Don't sell yourself short Fozzie!


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Can the ACG have a stall?
- Silence
You might have missed the email, can the ACG have a stall?
- Silence
Really, can we have a stall?
- Blather, blather, something about masks and ant-vaxxers
Yeah, but our stall?
- 'Look, Look, Here's a list of people who _have _got a stall?
So, are you saying the ACG have been refused because they are transphobic
- Some _other _groups couldn't have a stall due to space/Covid
Yeah, but do you have any evidence that the ACG are transphobic?
- You need to be comradely and trust us....
But...
_WE AREN'T TELLING YOU!_


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

chilango said:


> Don't sell yourself short Fozzie!


I am not (yet!) a well respected national anarchist org.


----------



## chilango (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am not (yet!) a well respected national anarchist org.


surely in the top 5


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am not (yet!) a well respected national anarchist org.


You’re well respected, mate. Organisation isn’t something I’d put in the same sentence though.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Can the ACG have a stall?
> - Silence
> You might have missed the email, can the ACG have a stall?
> - Silence
> ...


To be fair, Rhyddical did say:


Rhyddical said:


> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


We applied for a stall. Therefore he doesn’t think we are by our nature transphobic.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

Well this has all taken a rather flattering turn.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well this has all taken a rather flattering turn.


I’m calling you disorganised. You got that, right?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Send in the biffer


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m calling you disorganised. You got that, right?


You’ll have to speak up, I’m very old!


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> To be fair, Rhyddical did say:
> 
> We applied for a stall. Therefore he doesn’t think we are by our nature transphobic.


Yeah, I should have included that.  There was a hint of 'all men are mortal...' in there. Anyway, the mystery deepens and the only way to find out is turn up on the day and go for a pint.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

“I’m getting mixed signals, mixed signals
Mixed, mixed, mixed signals

At first she said: "Your call is very important to us"
And then she said: "Please hold, Please hold."
Then she said: "Your call is very important to us"
And then she said: "Please hold. Please hold."

Sparks


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## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Hang on, '_turn up on the day, you'll find out some vital information and drink will be served_', it's a timeshare scam!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> _Reasons you may not be informed_
> 
> Need to know basis, Reggie, Top Secret, I'm sure you understand


I'm looking forward to 'the truth? you can't handle the truth!'


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I should have included that.  There was a hint of 'all men are mortal...' in there. Anyway, the mystery deepens and the only way to find out is turn up on the day and go for a pint.


I’m lost now. Who is Malatesta and who is Socrates?

I’d go for a pint with the crew, but I’m unlikely to be in London.  If they’re in Glasgow they should give me a shout.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Hang on, '_turn up on the day, you'll find out some vital information and drink will be served_', it's a timeshare scam!


"Will you walk into my Wetherspoons?" said the spider to the fly;
"'Tis the prettiest little Wetherspoons that ever you may spy."


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Can the ACG have a stall?
> - Silence
> You might have missed the email, can the ACG have a stall?
> - Silence
> ...


Poetry thread >>>>>


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Poetry thread >>>>>


Pam Ayres does the London Bookfair.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> "Will you walk into my Wetherspoons?" said the spider to the fly;
> "'Tis the prettiest little Wetherspoons that ever you may spy."


I bet they’re asleep in New York. I’ll bet they’re asleep all over America.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

Feels a bit like some weird gaslighting thing.

They ignore emails and ignore answering a simple question. Both repeatedly.

Then come out with some 'Stop speculating, go and chill out, you're all being unreasonable' thing.


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Reading through this thread a bit more fully. Christ alive the presumption and speculation. Seems mostly geared towards being angry at your own speculation and them getting annoyed at someone who is politely respond where they are able. I'm sorry if you feel offended that I'm not able/keen to provide you with answers to every query, I mean just accept that there maybe things you are not aware about and reasons you might not be informed about it.
> 
> For what it's worth, we received the email from Angry Workers and they'll be responded to accordingly, our next meeting is on Wednesday so I guess after that.
> 
> ...


Oh, please.  This is completely disingenous.

Of course people are going to examine your actions as organisers; if you don't like accountability, you shouldn't seek out positions of power.

As the custodians (for now) of one of the most significant events in the anarchist calendar you owe it to the community to explain why you have exluded a significant number of well-respected anarchists (even if that's only in the most general terms), or, at the very least, to explain why you can't.  To repeatedly and pointedly refuse to address straightforward and legitimate questions (on here or via email) is a deliberate 'fuck you', which makes your faux-comradely invitation to share a pint all the more hypocritical.

And to impliedly smear anarchists as transphobes without being willing to stand behind the accusation is cowardly, to boot.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

Anyway, solidarity to the ACG. I love you - even if your pamphlets look like something designed in 1990. (Or maybe was that 1890...)


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Rhyddical In terms of “Come meet me and the rest of the Bookfair crew, have some fucking human interaction and realise that shit on the internet isn't always what it seems.”
> 
> I emailed the organising group about attending their meeting when the initial invites went out way back when. Never heard back…
> 
> ...


That what they said when Northern Ireland’s leading anarchist was cruelly attacked at the Bookfair by those smelling of cheap cider


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Anyway, solidarity to the ACG. I love you - even if your pamphlets look like something designed in 1990. (Or maybe was that 1890...)


_That_ modern. 😎


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I bet they’re asleep in New York. I’ll bet they’re asleep all over America.


Had to look that one up, I think I have seen it once but it was quite a while ago. Uh, forget it Jake, it's the New Improved London Anarchist Bookfair?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Anyway, solidarity to the ACG. I love you - even if your pamphlets look like something designed in 1990. (Or maybe was that 1890...)


They've got PDFs!


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

Twitch isn't just something that happens when we miss our medication I hear.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Twitch isn't just something that happens when we miss our medication I hear.


I had to do a search.  It’s videos of people playing computer games!


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

OK, apologies all...not been following the thread properly, (so please ignore if you think I'm being a lazy bastard), but a quick question...why _might_ anyone organising the book fair _think_ that the ACG are dodgy wrt trans?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> OK, apologies all...not been following the thread properly, (so please ignore if you think I'm being a lazy bastard), but a quick question...why _might_ anyone organising the book fair _think_ that the ACG are dodgy wrt trans?


They wouldn’t.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> They wouldn’t.


I see...or not, as the case may be.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 30, 2021)

So, after quite a few pages, no direct response as to why the ACG has been excluded.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

Quite a mystery this, then?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I think it's good that the new bookfair has a policy against transphobia, and if Women's Place, Mayday for Women, LGB Alliance or any similar clowns applied for stalls I think you should tell them to fuck off.


All those groups you mention aren't anarchist organisations, so any organisers would be unlikely to consider allowing them a stall. It would be good, though, to have an agreed definition of transphobia, rather than just a word with multiple potential definitions hanging off of it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Have we had "the bookfair collective cannot comment on individual cases" yet?


Neither Confirm Nor Deny


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Quite a mystery this, then?


Man coming to terms with late onset anarchism meets anarchists


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> So, after quite a few pages, no direct response as to why the ACG has been excluded.



This much we know...


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> This much we know...


Episode recap


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Episode recap


_Soap was filmed before a studio audience._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I had to do a search.  It’s videos of people playing computer games!


Fun Twitch fact referencing your Caledonianishness: Limmy earns more from people paying to watch him drive a pretend lorry on Twitch than he does from comedy.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Man coming to terms with late onset anarchism meets anarchists


Yeah, why won't people play by the rules, eh?


----------



## Athos (Aug 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> OK, apologies all...not been following the thread properly, (so please ignore if you think I'm being a lazy bastard), but a quick question...why _might_ anyone organising the book fair _think_ that the ACG are dodgy wrt trans?


They couldn't reasonably, especially if they've read the ACG's statements on trans issues.  But I suspect it comes down to the fact that the ACG was formed when a group broke away from the Anarchist Federation over political differences which came to a head in arguments over the latter's response to events at the 2017 bookfair.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> They couldn't reasonably, especially if they've read the ACG's statements on trans issues.  But I suspect it comes down to the fact that the ACG was formed when a group broke away from the Anarchist Federation over political differences which came to a head in arguments over the latter's response to events at the 2017 bookfair.


Thanks for that reminder of the (probable) context; that (kind of) makes sense.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, why won't people play by the rules, eh?


Like herding cats in my experience


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Like herding cats in my experience


Well, if you presume to herd others...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

British anarchism: scene but not herd


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Fun Twitch fact referencing your Caledonianishness: Limmy earns more from people paying to watch him drive a pretend lorry on Twitch than he does from comedy.


From here (link goes to bit at 53m 55s where they talk about it):


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 30, 2021)

From Bookfair Covid Safety post:"The bookfair will be scaled down and we will restrict the event to mostly London based groups to limit unnecessary travel and exposure. There might be exceptions to this, but this year's bookfair will not be on the same scale as previous bookfairs." and yet: Berkshire Antifa, East Anglia Anarchist Federations, Suffolk and Essex Hunt Sabs ( not that I am objecting ) . Similarly Communist Workers Organisation) again, not that I am objecting) but no ACG. And no reason given for exclusion, despite multiple requests to answer the question.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 30, 2021)

The Carabao Cup is split into a separate North and South Round.  Could be that kind of thing.

Or as Comrade Manilow put it, '_Bermuda Triangle, it isn't my angle'_.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I had to do a search.  It’s videos of people playing computer games!


Twitch is one of those things that definitively makes me feel proper old. I spent loads of time watching other people play computer games as a kid, but that was only cos I was waiting for my big sister to get off the computer and let me have a go. Can never get the appeal of doing it recreationally.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 30, 2021)

Who made this Ryddical cunt the policeman of anarchism?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 30, 2021)

Looks to me like the fella is on a power-trip.

Not at all anarchist that.


----------



## LDC (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Twitch is one of those things that definitively makes me feel proper old. I spent loads of time watching other people play computer games as a kid, but that was only cos I was waiting for my big sister to get off the computer and let me have a go. Can never get the appeal of doing it recreationally.



TBH I've only heard of it, assumed it was some like youth Youtube. But it's videos of people playing computer games?! WTAF, the world is mental.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Twitch is one of those things that definitively makes me feel proper old. I spent loads of time watching other people play computer games as a kid, but that was only cos I was waiting for my big sister to get off the computer and let me have a go. Can never get the appeal of doing it recreationally.


I watch a couple on YouTube. I really enjoy it as they normally build a narrative in some games like CK3 and also made me a bit better at the game. Helps they are pretty amusing too. I was kind of tempted to try it myself! 

Did have to give myself a break after 30+ episodes of this though.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> TBH I've only heard of it, assumed it was some like youth Youtube. But it's videos of people playing computer games?! WTAF, the world is mental.


I think the appeal is that there are people playing computer games and talking over it? Again, I stress that I do not understand the draw of any of this stuff myself. I guess you must have missed the controversy over Twitch having to remove the pogchamp face guy when he turned out to be a big antivaxxer and hardcore Trumpist?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 30, 2021)

Twitch can just be a glorified video chat room, grandads. It’s a platform.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Twitch can just be a glorified video chat room, grandads. It’s a platform.


We don't use the 'p' word 🤫


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Twitch can just be a glorified video chat room, grandads. It’s a platform.


Should organised anarchist communism be on it?  I think I know someone who once played snake.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Rhyddical In terms of “Come meet me and the rest of the Bookfair crew, have some fucking human interaction and realise that shit on the internet isn't always what it seems.”
> 
> I emailed the organising group about attending their meeting when the initial invites went out way back when. Never heard back…
> 
> ...





Well that itself isn't great. I wonder what happened there, perhaps you went to spam, or it got scene but then the person handling inquiries didn't see coz it wasn't new.

You have my genuine apologies for that.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

For what it's worth, hopefully Covid-19  stops being a thing and next year we can run public organising meetings again and then no one will fall through the loop and any greivences can long be sorted out over cups of tea and chit chat.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Should organised anarchist communism be on it?  I think I know someone who once played snake.



It's a bit shit to be honest, that we'd have to utilise corporate shit for Anarchist bookfair but last year it was seen as the best utility. This year we're working with Kolektiva to also stream the workshops but it's all still new and is essentially a test of the system. Hopefully by ABL 2020 we'll have discarded Twitch and similar platforms and only use those put together by comrades.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Well that itself isn't great. I wonder what happened there, perhaps you went to spam, or it got scene but then the person handling inquiries didn't see coz it wasn't new.
> 
> You have my genuine apologies for that.


You see responding to Fozzie like this but still not responding to the ACGers does seem a bit of a wind up.

And I'm all for winding them up but then I'm not organising an anarchist bookfair.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 30, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> It's a bit shit to be honest, that we'd have to utilise corporate shit for Anarchist bookfair but last year it was seen as the best utility. This year we're working with Kolektiva to also stream the workshops but it's all still new and is essentially a test of the system. Hopefully by ABL 2020 we'll have discarded Twitch and similar platforms and only use those put together by comrades.


I thought LynnDoyleCooper was just joking with me about being old. But the events are on Twitch?  I’m out.  I’ve had enough new video platforms in the last 18 months for a lifetime.  My old laptop is bristling with downloaded video platforms that I used once.  I seriously can’t take any more.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 30, 2021)

I've got Twitch and TikTok on my tablet but they're the first new app to make me feel old.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Well that itself isn't great. I wonder what happened there, perhaps you went to spam, or it got scene but then the person handling inquiries didn't see coz it wasn't new.
> 
> You have my genuine apologies for that.


I'm not quite sure if you are saying that you've _checked _and no email was received or that you haven't but _think _that that might be the case?  Either way, if you are saying you personally haven't seen the request from the ACG, I'm more than happy to accept that. What I am curious about is that charlie mowbray raised the non-reply 10 days ago on this thread and you were tagged about it that the same day (#1890).  In fact the last 10 pages have been variations on 'why haven't you replied to the ACG email... have you rejected the ACG because you think they are transphobic'. You've posted up over the weekend and in the post below mention that you've read pages 60 onwards.  So, the thing I'm confused about is why you only mention tonight the possibility the email may not have been received. I'd have thought all of those 'why haven't you replied to our email' messages might have lead to you saying something along the lines of 'oh, shit, have we missed something. Sorry, I'll get right back to you'.



Rhyddical said:


> Reading pages 60 plus and comparing them to pages 1-60 is quite educational.
> 
> Honestly I'm suprised the discussion their year hasn't been about our masks policy. Is U75 the only place the tinfoil hat wankstains haven't infected with their ersatz libertarian anti-mask knobbery?
> 
> ...


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm not quite sure if you are saying that you've _checked _and no email was received or that you haven't but _think _that that might be the case?  Either way, if you are saying you personally haven't seen the request from the ACG, I'm more than happy to accept that. What I am curious about is that charlie mowbray raised the non-reply 10 days ago on this thread and you were tagged about it that the same day (#1890).  In fact the last 10 pages have been variations on 'why haven't you replied to the ACG email... have you rejected the ACG because you think they are transphobic'. You've posted up over the weekend and in the post below mention that you've read pages 60 onwards.  So, the thing I'm confused about is why you only mention tonight the possibility the email may not have been received. I'd have thought all of those 'why haven't you replied to our email' messages might have lead to you saying something along the lines of 'oh, shit, have we missed something. Sorry, I'll get right back to you'.


It’s Fozzie Bear ’s email Rhyddical is talking about there.  Our emails have still not been mentioned.

And while Fozzie definitely deserves that type of customer care, the difference between the speed of reply Fozzie’s query got and the continuing non reply about ours is really an answer in itself.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s Fozzie Bear ’s email Rhyddical is talking about there.  Our emails have still not been mentioned.
> 
> And while Fozzie definitely deserves that type of customer care, the difference between the speed of reply Fozzie’s query got and the continuing non reply about ours is really an answer in itself.


Dammit, I thought I was being all forensic and everything!    But, yeah.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Dammit, I thought I was being all forensic and everything!    But, yeah.


... anyway, could Fozzie join the ACG to make me look less bad?  My bookfair Columbo routine hangs by a thread.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> ... anyway, could Fozzie join the ACG to make me look less bad?  My bookfair Columbo routine hangs by a thread.


He definitely should.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 31, 2021)

Fozzie's email mate, sorry for confusion.

10 pages of people taking a lack of response on a bloody internet thread on a matter they might not have all the info on as some horrific cunting twatting arse policeman personal assulat behaviour rather than just giving the benefit of the doubt and remembering we're supposed to be on the same side here, well mostly. lol

I could very easily just stuck my fingers up and moved on and my glib "anyways... here is another thing" is being taken as the vile insult from the incompentant anarchkiddies, rather than what it is, the additional aggro and tossed insults just sort of re-enforcing the questionable splendor of U75.

I'm a peaceful chap and I've got absolutely no aggy here, how folk want to respond to not being given an answer upon demand is up to them.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I thought LynnDoyleCooper was just joking with me about being old. But the events are on Twitch?  I’m out.  I’ve had enough new video platforms in the last 18 months for a lifetime.  My old laptop is bristling with downloaded video platforms that I used once.  I seriously can’t take any more.


You can look at Twitch in a normal browser, I think.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> You can look at Twitch in a normal browser, I think.


We'll have both streams broadcasted onto our website, so you wont actually need to go on Twitch at all. We've also integrated the chat functionality so you can interact with the panel, chat to over viewers etc.


----------



## LDC (Aug 31, 2021)

FFS, totally weird.

_At any point_ in the last pages you could have said something like "Look, there's some shit going on, I can't give an easy answer atm, sorry."

_Or_ you could have emailed the ACG directly and said here, "We've been in touch with the ACG, not going into details in public."

You even could have said "Fuck the ACG, we hate them and the way they've behaved over X or their political position on Y, so they're banned."

Basic human interaction skills, some simple communication between comrades, normal levels of behaviour between adults, that kind of thing.

To now go on about how everyone is being unreasonable demanding answers and how we just need to show some respect is just fucking bonkers and smacks of trolling us and the ACG and that there's some nasty shit going on behind the scenes. All of which you could have avoided ages ago by just acting like a standard mature adult. Instead you posted some unicorns and memes and barely intelligible long posts. Way to go.

And since you haven't said that the ACG are banned I hope they'll be being offered a stall at short notice and an apology for the shit behaviour of the organizing group.

Anyway I'm out of this, it's a very depressing episode, fuck the pathetic teenage-like weirdo anarchist scene.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

But who are we to question the *little Emperor *of anarchism?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

I don't see why Ryddical is allowed to be answerable to no one at all.

A blatant flaw in the 'organising' of the London anarchist Bookfair.


----------



## maomao (Aug 31, 2021)

The silent treatment is a documented form of enotional abuse:









						Silent treatment: Is it abuse and how to respond
					

Giving someone the silent treatment can make them feel excluded and ignored. Find out why people do it, whether or not it is abuse, and how to respond here.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com
				




Not posting at all wouldn't be the silent treatment btw as it wouldn't be singling one group of people out.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Yeah LynnDoyleCooper is on the money here. Rhyddical may well be a lovely comrade irl (and I'd happily take them up on their offer of a f2f chat if I went to the Book fair) but their behaviour on here is fucking weird. 

It's not hard to answer the ACG question. We don't have to like the answer.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Although I disagree with Lynne on one detail. I'm not sure it's accurate to describe this as an anarchist scene. Explicit Anarchists seem to be notable in their absence.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> 10 pages of people taking a lack of response on a bloody internet thread on a matter they might not have all the info on


That's the thing innit, we know we haven't got all the info, that's why we keep saying "can we have some more information please?" And when the response amounts to variations on "No <3. It's a secret. " it's hardly surprising that people are going to a) start speculating and b) get frustrated.


> rather than just giving the benefit of the doubt


And that's the other problem, it's very very difficult to simultaneously give the benefit of the doubt to both the bookfair organisers and to the group that cannot be named. I have genuinely been trying to do my best to do that, Fozzie's probably been doing a better job of it, but either way, it's possible to imagine a perfectly innocent, no-fault explanation for the ACG not getting a stall (reduced stall numbers due to covid restrictions, etc), but it's pretty hard to see an innocent, no-fault explanation for why they need to be sent to Coventry and given Schrodinger's stall. At which point we need to either give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your behaviour towards them is justified, or give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that it isn't until proven otherwise. It's not particularly surprising if people are tending towards the latter option.


> and remembering we're supposed to be on the same side here


Indeed, this bit is true enough. I suppose you could even say that you need an outward-looking, expansive, genuinely inclusive approach that accepts degrees of difference if you want to change the world – or simply save your local library or support a group of workers in struggle. The key thing to stress here is that the people we are talking about are still our class. So how do we address these issues without treating the people we are working with as enemies in the same way as the ruling class is our enemy?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Schrodinger's stall.


🤣


----------



## brogdale (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> That's the thing innit, we know we haven't got all the info, that's why we keep saying "can we have some more information please?" And when the response amounts to variations on "No <3. It's a secret. " it's hardly surprising that people are going to a) start speculating and b) get frustrated.


Yes, unnecessarily maintaining an asymmetry of information, particularly when repeatedly invited to share, does not appear to be behaving in a comradely or broadly collectivist manner.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> FFS, totally weird.
> 
> _At any point_ in the last pages you could have said something like "Look, there's some shit going on, I can't give an easy answer atm, sorry."
> 
> ...


And don't forget Rhyddical, you - your group, the organising committee - were the ones who *invited *stall applications.  Inviting applications, particularly from established groups, comes with the responsibility that you will manage to reply.  Whatever your reasons for refusing the ACG, they don't stop you actually replying. It's appalling manners, it leads to exactly the situation you've found yourself in on this thread and leaves people in limbo as to whether they should make arrangements to attend. And most of all, you do this at the very time we need a thriving working class politics.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

I haven't posted much on Urban recently, and only really popped into this thread as I was thinking about going to the Bookfair this year and wondered what the latest was, was anyone going, meeting in the pub etc.

Then I see the state of play.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> I haven't posted much on Urban recently, and only really popped into this thread as I was thinking about going to the Bookfair this year and wondered what the latest was, was anyone going, meeting in the pub etc.
> 
> Then I see the state of play.


It’s good to see you around though.


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 31, 2021)

What a state to get yourselves in.

He’s not answering & is really getting off on your rage over lack of answers. There’s probably a sniggering WhatsApp chat somewhere with the choicest quotations.

I have no dog in this fight but I don’t see what tens of pages of demands roaring for answers, like a senile Erich Mielke shouting down a disconnected phone in a jail cell, is really achieving.

Side-clutching stuff. The Anarchist Bookfair thread never fails to deliver.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

I suspect this is nothing more than afters from the 2018 split/aftermath of the last Bookfair. At some point the collective saw the application from the ACG and said 'fuck that, transphobes'.  Everything has followed from that (blatantly untrue) position/decision. It can't be defended, it can't be communicated, so it's fingers in ears time and meme posting.

I'll be happy to be corrected on that.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Less rage, more of a sigh tbh.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 31, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> What a state to get yourselves in.
> 
> He’s not answering & is really getting off on your rage over lack of answers. There’s probably a sniggering WhatsApp chat somewhere with the choicest quotations.
> 
> ...


WhatsApp? Grandad. It will be a Discord Server.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> What a state to get yourselves in.
> 
> He’s not answering & is really getting off on your rage over lack of answers. There’s probably a sniggering WhatsApp chat somewhere with the choicest quotations.
> 
> ...


To be fair, members of the ACG have been very measured in their response, it's been the rest of us raging.  I do think you might be right about Rhyddical getting off on this though, or at least building victimhood out of it,


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 31, 2021)

The point is how this political one-legged duck swimming in circles looks to anyone curious about attending / non-hierarchical politics in general.

At best, embarrassing.


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 31, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> WhatsApp? Grandad. It will be a Discord Server.



_sends incontinent homing pigeon Dom’s way with with a poison-pen letter, cc’d to the Weekly Worker_


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> What a state to get yourselves in.
> 
> He’s not answering & is really getting off on your rage over lack of answers. There’s probably a sniggering WhatsApp chat somewhere with the choicest quotations.
> 
> ...


Said this last night. Need to up the ante. One mention of Ska going to meet the head honcho of the bookfair and Rydical began to invite everyone for a pint. .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Said this last night. Need to up the ante. One mention of Ska going to meet the head honcho of the bookfair and Rydical began to invite everyone for a pint. .


as long as Rhyddical is buying


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> The point is how this political one-legged duck swimming in circles looks to anyone curious about attending / non-hierarchical politics in general.
> 
> At best, embarrassing.


yeh well if people won't ask straightforward questions in a straightforward manner then this is what you get. it's still a fuck of a lot less embarrassing than what goes on in parliament.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> I don’t see what tens of pages of demands roaring for answers, like a senile Erich Mielke shouting down a disconnected phone in a jail cell, is really achieving.


what does anything we do here really achieve?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> The point is how this political one-legged duck swimming in circles looks to anyone curious about attending / non-hierarchical politics in general.
> 
> At best, embarrassing.


It’s sadly true.

I speak entirely for myself here, but as someone who has never attended a London Bookfair (I’ve been to London about 5 times in my life, if you count making connections at Heathrow), I don’t feel at all motivated to go to one.  If this is the state of the “anarchist” “scene” in London, I think we’re well out of it.

In Glasgow we have comradely relations with several other groups, working together on various things, having them to talk at our meetings, etc.  Nationally, the ACG has worked with other organisations such as the Angry Workers, RAG and several others I apologise for forgetting right now.  Internationally, we’re in constant contact with organisations right across the world.  Comrades in Latin America even send us early drafts of their pamphlets to read over and we do likewise.  I was really impressed, on joining the ACG that all this was going on!

Then this, basically high school drama, comes along once a year, and I think, you know what, if that’s UK anarchism we should probably distance ourselves from it anyway.  

As others have said, the organised working class movement is at a very low ebb.  We should concentrate on working with those serious organisations who actually want to get stuff done.  I’ve no idea who Rhyddical is or what he’s/they have done in the movement, but I strongly suspect the movement he/they are involved in isn’t something I’d recognise anyway. We should  just let them get on with whatever it is they do. 

That’s a personal view, but it s one I’ll be putting forward at the next opportunity.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s sadly true.
> 
> I speak entirely for myself here, but as someone who has never attended a London Bookfair (I’ve been to London about 5 times in my life, if you count making connections at Heathrow), I don’t feel at all motivated to go to one.  If this is the state of the “anarchist” “scene” in London, I think we’re well out of it.
> 
> ...


Bye then Danny. 

Who needs the ACG when we've got Art for Animals, the Essex Hunt Sabs and Clapton Punks doing stalls eh?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> Bye then Danny.
> 
> Who needs the ACG when we've got Art for Animals, the Essex Hunt Sabs and Clapton Punks doing stalls eh?


No offence to the Essex Hunt Sabs. I’m sure they’re fine people.


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what does anything we do here really achieve?



I enjoy your company


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well if people won't ask straightforward questions in a straightforward manner then this is what you get. it's still a fuck of a lot less embarrassing than what goes on in parliament.



LOL


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s sadly true.
> 
> I speak entirely for myself here, but as someone who has never attended a London Bookfair (I’ve been to London about 5 times in my life, if you count making connections at Heathrow), I don’t feel at all motivated to go to one.  If this is the state of the “anarchist” “scene” in London, I think we’re well out of it.
> 
> ...


to my mind the problem is the association of this event with the previous longstanding bookfair, which was organised by a group who were widely respected within the movement. the people involved in organising this event at conway hall haven't shown the same deftness of touch which was formerly there. no one seems to know who they are, what their record is, which groups or currents they're affiliated with. the groups with stalls at the event seem a curious bag. there's numerous people who've had stalls at previous london bookfairs who aren't there. the acg, of course, but also haringey solidarity group seem absent, now or never, active distibution, ak press, the several secondhand bookstalls... this doesn't look to me so much representative of the movement as the events it seeks to continue. it's all a great pity.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> haringey solidarity group


That’s one of the groups I forgot to mention! Sorry, comrades.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> to my mind the problem is the association of this event with the previous longstanding bookfair, which was organised by a group who were widely respected within the movement. the people involved in organising this event at conway hall haven't shown the same deftness of touch which was formerly there. no one seems to know who they are, what their record is, which groups or currents they're affiliated with. the groups with stalls at the event seem a curious bag. there's numerous people who've had stalls at previous london bookfairs who aren't there. the acg, of course, but also haringey solidarity group seem absent, now or never, active distibution, ak press, the several secondhand bookstalls... this doesn't look to me so much representative of the movement as the events it seeks to continue. it's all a great pity.


If people calling themselves anarchists in London want to organise a bookfair, then it seems to me there’s very little anyone can do (or should do) to stop them calling themselves a London anarchist book fair.  But that doesn’t mean we have to get involved. 

Again, I have no experience of the London anarchist milieu. I once went to the Freedom Bookshop in Angel Alley about 20 years ago, but that’s it.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Now none of this morning ght be the organisers' fault but to my mind a serious Anarchist Bookfair (as a significant part of the movements' infrastructure) ought to include a fair few of the following who are currently absent:

ACG
Class War
AK
Active
PM Press
IWW
IWGB
UVW
Acorn
Plan C
etc. Etc.

As I said, that might not be the organisers' fault, but the list of stalls (to my ageing mind at least) is more notable for who's not there than who is. 

That is a problem.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Oh, and for the benefit of the more cynical amongst you, I'm online a lot today 'cos it's transfer deadline day, not because I'm overly excised about this!


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2021)

Plan C?

I went along to one of their groups (‘mental health under capitalism’). They were a depressing bunch.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> Now none of this morning ght be the organisers' fault but to my mind a serious Anarchist Bookfair (as a significant part of the movements' infrastructure) ought to include a fair few of the following who are currently absent:
> 
> ACG
> Class War
> ...


I mean, in all fairness to the organisers, they have said that there's a reduced capacity for stalls cos of social distancing so they can't accommodate as many people as they like/as usual? (Also, do IWGB, UVW and Acorn usually do stalls? I have no idea on that one, and I suppose London Renters' Union and HASL would be more relevant to London than Acorn. Not that they're there either.) But on the other hand, this mess so far makes it impossible to tell who's been refused a stall with no hard feelings cos of lack of space, and who's barred cos of impenetrable secret beef issues. I don't think anyone has problems with the wobs but who even knows?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Plan C?


Is that "Plan C?" as in "who are Plan C, I've never heard of them?" or "Plan C?" as in "how dare you suggest inviting Plan C, you revisionist cur?"


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Plan C?
> 
> I went along to one of their groups (‘mental health under capitalism’). They were a depressing bunch.


National Org with plenty of Anarchist members. Would seem appropriate.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, in all fairness to the organisers, they have said that there's a reduced capacity for stalls cos of social distancing so they can't accommodate as many people as they like/as usual? (Also, do IWGB, UVW and Acorn usually do stalls? I have no idea on that one, and I suppose London Renters' Union and HASL would be more relevant to London than Acorn. Not that they're there either.) But on the other hand, this mess so far makes it impossible to tell who's been refused a stall with no hard feelings cos of lack of space, and who's barred cos of impenetrable secret beef issues. I don't think anyone has problems with the wobs but who even knows?


All true. Just imagining how far the Bookfair is (and tbf was) from my own vision of what it shoulda coulda been.


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> National Org with plenty of Anarchist members. Would seem appropriate.



but they are the wanky version of anarchism. And i wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve been pushing for ACG to be refused a stall.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

This is making me realise how long I'd been a lurker on urban for, I was just fondly reminiscing about the year I was winding up my mate in Plan C cos a certain very angry Kurdish U75 poster was offering to fight Plan C at the bookfair for being Kurdish nationalists. This was back in pre-Plan Corbyn days so I think would've been 2015?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

So are Class War not there either?

I definitely think that AK Press and Active should be there aswell, plus the  small book sellers and maybe Plan C aswell.


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> To be fair, members of the ACG have been very measured in their response, it's been the rest of us raging.


That's our thing though, thoughtful and measured in our responses... usually. Anyway, I'm just happy to quietly watch the silent treatment and assorted gaslighting unravel.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> Oh, and for the benefit of the more cynical amongst you, I'm online a lot today 'cos it's transfer deadline day, not because I'm overly excised about this!


I'm only here because I keep being drawn to this thread - by my own interest ofcourse.

Other than that the bandwithdz thread has been a pretty good laugh as usual lately, but theres not much else to keep me here at the moment tbh.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> but they are the wanky version of anarchism. And i wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve been pushing for ACG to be refused a stall.


Don't think having a "wanky version of anarchism" has ever been a problem for stalls before!

(...and for the record afaik they've not been "pushing for the ACG to be refused a stall")


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 31, 2021)

I am genuinely surprised Plan C and Classwar are still going. No offence to either group but I just kind of assumed...


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> So are Class War not there either?
> 
> I definitely think that AK Press and Active should be there aswell, plus the  small book sellers and maybe Plan C aswell.


Looks like CW're doing an online workshop on the Sunday but not a stall on the Saturday. And tbf to the organisers I can never keep track of when CW have disbanded and when they've refounded themselves again. Again, I respect that social distancing means that they're running a smaller event and they can't accommodate as many stalls as they like, perhaps they should do a statement saying "we wish we could put on more stalls but covid safety means it would be irresponsible, we would like to make it clear that there's no malice or judgement involved in the stall applications we've had to refuse?"


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Looks like CW're doing an online workshop on the Sunday but not a stall on the Saturday. And tbf to the organisers I can never keep track of when CW have disbanded and when they've refounded themselves again. Again, I respect that social distancing means that they're running a smaller event and they can't accommodate as many stalls as they like, perhaps they should do a statement saying "we wish we could put on more stalls but covid safety means it would be irresponsible, we would like to make it clear that there's no malice or judgement involved in the stall applications we've had to refuse?"


I wonder what their workshop is about? I'm interested.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> I am genuinely surprised Plan C and Classwar are still going. No offence to either group but I just kind of assumed...


Plan C are - I don't think I'm giving away any secrets here - going through a period of "self- reflection" but are very much still going as I understand it.

Class War? I dunno, but they're down to do a talk on the Sunday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Looks like CW're doing an online workshop on the Sunday but not a stall on the Saturday. And tbf to the organisers I can never keep track of when CW have disbanded and when they've refounded themselves again. Again, I respect that social distancing means that they're running a smaller event and they can't accommodate as many stalls as they like, perhaps they should do a statement saying "we wish we could put on more stalls but covid safety means it would be irresponsible, we would like to make it clear that there's no malice or judgement involved in the stall applications we've had to refuse?"


tbh if it's a bookfair then the major publishers like ak and pm should be there. and the national groups ought to be there, if they've applied for a stall.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> If this is the state of the “anarchist” “scene” in London, I think we’re well out of it....In Glasgow  etc


this kind of splits and spats stuff is standard practice since forever isnt it? i wouldn't draw too much wider conclusion from it. The more numbers there are involved in something the bigger the chance of a fall out. Plus there's personal stuff that goes on behind the scenes. Arguably a big part of the fights out of the 2018 bookfair was there were so many non-anarchists sticking their oars in (see signatories of that shitty open letter) - itself a sign of the events success at drawing in new people, and of the problems that arise once the pool of opinion widens significantly.  

If you look at successful communes and utopian communities etc one of the defining features is often a tightly shared ideology. Dealing badly with difference isn't unique to a "london anarchist scene" - seems pretty universal in politics.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

ska invita said:


> see signatories of that shitty open letter


I don't know about an open letter.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I don't know about an open letter.


Again, think this is a 2017 open letter being discussed, not a contemporary one.


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Again, think this is a 2017 open letter being discussed, not a contemporary one.


I don't know about a 2017 one either, tbf.   (I don't want to either.  It's 2021, ffs.  I don't want to prolong a spat I wasn't involved in).


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> Now none of this morning ght be the organisers' fault but to my mind a serious Anarchist Bookfair (as a significant part of the movements' infrastructure) ought to include a fair few of the following who are currently absent:
> 
> ACG
> Class War
> ...


This is by the by, but not sure about Acorn being on the list - there are good people in it, but their undemocratic structure makes them not even very libertarian-leaning. In fact rumour has it that a bunch of staffers recently quit their jobs because they asked for more democracy and got a 'no' in response...

I mean, if they paid their staff decent salaries they'd be less likely to quit over such things, but their salaries are so low I'd suggest that they all unionise  

No shade to particular people in Acorn.


----------



## A380 (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what does anything we do here really achieve?


Are we supposed to be achieving something? Fuck, no one said anything to me…


----------



## A380 (Aug 31, 2021)

ska invita said:


> this kind of splits and spats stuff is standard….
> 
> … Dealing badly with difference isn't unique to a "london anarchist scene" - seems pretty universal in politics.



Left wing or ‘progressive ‘ politics sadly. It’s why we always get fucked over even though there’s more of us…


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 31, 2021)

A380 said:


> Left wing or ‘progressive ‘ politics sadly. It’s why we always get fucked over even though there’s more of us…



Also far right politics though. The fash bicker and split all the time.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 31, 2021)

Maybe the real anarchy is the friends we made along the way...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Also far right politics though. The fash bicker and split all the time.


they all think they should be fuhrer


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Also far right politics though. The fash bicker and split all the time.


anarchists have been a model of restraint and good comradeship in comparison to the labour party these many years


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> anarchists have been a model of restraint and good comradeship in comparison to the labour party these many years



True.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 31, 2021)

I've not "gotten off on your rage", it's an awful thing to think about a fellow anarchist, but in the age of anonymous internet trolls it's the default when someone acts in a difficult manner, the presumption being that it's a deliberate attempt to insult and injure. Cheap thrills for some random neckbeard in his mams basement or something idk. I'm neither anonymous nor here to delight in people being miffed off. My tight lipped manner on certain subjects isn't just to pissed the random folk at U75 off, It's out of respect for myself, the collective and funny enough some of the people on this thread. You don't have to believe that but it is what it is. You don't have to accept that (and I mean it's clear thread doesn't) but it is what it is. You are simply responding to a lack of information with misinformed aggro, same shit as last year. I'm a genuine kind of guy and I'm just being honest with you, no one (other than the bigots etc... let's not go back to pages 1-50 of the thread) is banned from bookfair and I do genuinely hope some good faith and understanding can be maintained between the people who are actually involved, It's just a bookfair folk, and despite stoking the fires and being a little coy here I know for a fact I'll be seeing some of you at it, those of you I know, we'll probably share a gruff, ayup, a nod and maybe later a smoke, a brew and a frank chat to put some stuff to bed so everyone can move the fuck on, those who don't idk I'd hope for a little dawning realisation that perhaps Ol' Rhyddical wasn't just being a cunt for a laugh trickling down, tho I suppose slagging people off with fantastical ideas of little hitlers and thought police travels much easier as we saw last year. Ah well.

For what it's worth I didn't even see half the last 20 pages until yesterday (Pretty wild that people went to the effort of checking when I signed in lol) being quite intermitant due to some dramatic life stuff and given wider context I can totally understand it, hands up, my glib tone and random spotty replies did not help matters, so that's on me. Look, I'm not here to try and make you like me, nor do I get off on you having drama with me, I'm just here as a comrade, a fellow anarchist speaking for myself, to promote this cool event I'm part of organising which you should (if you are in London, are vaccinated etc*, and feel fit and well) should come along to and enjoy. I truly hope you do, there are some kick ass stalls (and yes some missing ones due to the whole end of the world, but hopefully back next year) and if you can't make that we've a packed day of workshops, which to be fair last year, even after all the dramatics last year, some of you actually enjoyed and found useful.

I've said this a bunch of times, but I'm really going to try and stop being baited now, I hope you take this in the spirit it's meant.
I'll continue to reply to the queries I can, please for the love of fuck, don't take the lack of an answer/reply as some deep personal insult.

* = Obviously some people are unable to be vaccinated and/or wear a mask and they can make their own choices about their health and that of their community. I'd personally at the least reccomend getting a test done prior.


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I've not "gotten off on your rage", it's an awful thing to think about a fellow anarchist, but in the age of anonymous internet trolls it's the default when someone acts in a difficult manner, the presumption being that it's a deliberate attempt to insult and injure. Cheap thrills for some random neckbeard in his mams basement or something idk. I'm neither anonymous nor here to delight in people being miffed off. My tight lipped manner on certain subjects isn't just to pissed the random folk at U75 off, It's out of respect for myself, the collective and funny enough some of the people on this thread. You don't have to believe that but it is what it is. You don't have to accept that (and I mean it's clear thread doesn't) but it is what it is. You are simply responding to a lack of information with misinformed aggro, same shit as last year. I'm a genuine kind of guy and I'm just being honest with you, no one (other than the bigots etc... let's not go back to pages 1-50 of the thread) is banned from bookfair and I do genuinely hope some good faith and understanding can be maintained between the people who are actually involved, It's just a bookfair folk, and despite stoking the fires and being a little coy here I know for a fact I'll be seeing some of you, those of you I know, we'll probably share a gruff, ayup, a nod and maybe later a brew and a frank chat to put some stuff to bed so everyone can move the fuck on, those who don't idk I'd hope for a little dawning realisation that perhaps Ol' Rhyddical wasn't just being a cunt for a laugh trickling down, tho I suppose not slagging people off with fantastical ideas of little hitlers and thought police travels much easier as we saw last year. Ah well.
> 
> For what it's worth I didn't even see half the last 20 pages until yesterday being quite intermitant due to some dramatic life stuff and given wider context I can totally understand it, hands up, my glib tone and random spotty replies did not help matters, so that's on me. Look, I'm not here to try and make you like me, nor do I get off on you having drama with me, I'm just here as a comrade, a fellow anarchist speaking for myself, to promote this cool event I'm part of organising which you should (if you are in London, are vaccinated etc*, and feel fit and well) should come along to and enjoy. I truly hope you do, there are some kick ass stalls (and yes some missing ones due to the whole end of the world, but hopefully back next year) and if you can't make that we've a packed day of workshops, which to be fair last year, even after all the dramatics last year, some of you actually enjoyed and found useful.
> 
> ...


Is that - finally - a long winded "I'm not going to say anything about the ACG" reply?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

If it’s stressful for you Rhyddical (and I absolutely agree this place can be), you know there’s no need at all for you to post here.  It’s a very odd community and there’s no obligation on you to participate.


----------



## Rhyddical (Aug 31, 2021)

No obligation but I'd be missing out on all the lovely company and support for organising anarchist christmas. (tho to be fair, the rest of the crew really did all the legwork this year, massive respect to them)


----------



## chilango (Aug 31, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> No obligation but I'd be missing out on all the lovely company and support for organising anarchist christmas. (tho to be fair, the rest of the crew really did all the legwork this year, massive respect to them)


It's also handy for all of us not on MySpace to keep up with Bookfair news...


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## Athos (Aug 31, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I've not "gotten off on your rage", it's an awful thing to think about a fellow anarchist, but in the age of anonymous internet trolls it's the default when someone acts in a difficult manner, the presumption being that it's a deliberate attempt to insult and injure. Cheap thrills for some random neckbeard in his mams basement or something idk. I'm neither anonymous nor here to delight in people being miffed off. My tight lipped manner on certain subjects isn't just to pissed the random folk at U75 off, It's out of respect for myself, the collective and funny enough some of the people on this thread. You don't have to believe that but it is what it is. You don't have to accept that (and I mean it's clear thread doesn't) but it is what it is. You are simply responding to a lack of information with misinformed aggro, same shit as last year. I'm a genuine kind of guy and I'm just being honest with you, no one (other than the bigots etc... let's not go back to pages 1-50 of the thread) is banned from bookfair and I do genuinely hope some good faith and understanding can be maintained between the people who are actually involved, It's just a bookfair folk, and despite stoking the fires and being a little coy here I know for a fact I'll be seeing some of you at it, those of you I know, we'll probably share a gruff, ayup, a nod and maybe later a smoke, a brew and a frank chat to put some stuff to bed so everyone can move the fuck on, those who don't idk I'd hope for a little dawning realisation that perhaps Ol' Rhyddical wasn't just being a cunt for a laugh trickling down, tho I suppose slagging people off with fantastical ideas of little hitlers and thought police travels much easier as we saw last year. Ah well.
> 
> For what it's worth I didn't even see half the last 20 pages until yesterday (Pretty wild that people went to the effort of checking when I signed in lol) being quite intermitant due to some dramatic life stuff and given wider context I can totally understand it, hands up, my glib tone and random spotty replies did not help matters, so that's on me. Look, I'm not here to try and make you like me, nor do I get off on you having drama with me, I'm just here as a comrade, a fellow anarchist speaking for myself, to promote this cool event I'm part of organising which you should (if you are in London, are vaccinated etc*, and feel fit and well) should come along to and enjoy. I truly hope you do, there are some kick ass stalls (and yes some missing ones due to the whole end of the world, but hopefully back next year) and if you can't make that we've a packed day of workshops, which to be fair last year, even after all the dramatics last year, some of you actually enjoyed and found useful.
> 
> ...


OK, so you're not going to go into detail about why the ACG has been denied a stall, but perhaps you could confirm whether it's political differences, conduct issues, personal animosity, logistical constraints, or something else, please?


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## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> If people calling themselves anarchists in London want to organise a bookfair, then it seems to me there’s very little anyone can do (or should do) to stop them calling themselves a London anarchist book fair.  But that doesn’t mean we have to get involved.
> 
> Again, I have no experience of the London anarchist milieu. I once went to the Freedom Bookshop in Angel Alley about 20 years ago, but that’s it.


I've never been particularly involved in the 'national' scene, apart from when we ran the Projectile Festival in Newcastle (in the sense it became part of the rolling programme of bookfairs, along with a network of people doing both national and local stuff).  I do think that network and infrastructure was important and I'm not sure how much it operates at the moment.  It could be a bit blokey, but I very much agree with Pickmans that there was established group of people who knew what they were doing. There were spats aplenty and but enough overlap and sense of who the enemy was for things to work.  

Maybe it still feels like that on the inside of the 'new' scene, I honestly know.  However the new lines in the sand that have appeared make things like the clusterfuck the last 10 pages have become so much more likely.


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## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I do think that network and infrastructure was important and I'm not sure how much it operates at the moment.  It could be a bit blokey, but I very much agree with Pickmans that there was established group of people who knew what they were doing. There were spats aplenty and but enough overlap and sense of who the enemy was for things to work.


I did used to have a pet theory that having a functioning infrastructure to take care of acted as a restraint on political disputes getting too nasty, based on the relative stability of things like the 1 in 12 or Cowley clubs, where there would actually be some level of real material consequences to the people running them not being able to settle their differences in a reasonable manner. Having said that, as noted above, the past five or six years of Labour Party stuff seems to completely fuck my theory out of the water.


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## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I did used to have a pet theory that having a functioning infrastructure to take care of acted as a restraint on political disputes getting too nasty, based on the relative stability of things like the 1 in 12 or Cowley clubs, where there would actually be some level of real material consequences to the people running them not being able to settle their differences in a reasonable manner. Having said that, as noted above, the past five or six years of Labour Party stuff seems to completely fuck my theory out of the water.


From what I saw, meeting up at the bookfair generally worked well at the interpersonal level... well, _friendships_.   Occasional spats, interpersonal beefs certainly, but enough commonality and enough movements rooted in class struggle anarchism for things to work out.  Maybe that's there now, maybe I'm just getting old.


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## LDC (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I did used to have a pet theory that having a functioning infrastructure to take care of acted as a restraint on political disputes getting too nasty, based on the relative stability of things like the 1 in 12 or Cowley clubs, where there would actually be some level of real material consequences to the people running them not being able to settle their differences in a reasonable manner. Having said that, as noted above, the past five or six years of Labour Party stuff seems to completely fuck my theory out of the water.



The Cowley Club is in the middle of a massive process of mediation from a huge split, and plenty of big shared housing projects implode, so not sure your theory holds much water.


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## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Could we approach The Black Hand to see if he'd run a bookfair outside of London?


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Could we approach The Black Hand to see if he'd run a bookfair outside of London?


It would have to be autonomous I suppose. I can't see TBH getting involved with anything that wasn't autonomous.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

nor can i


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## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Could we approach The Black Hand to see if he'd run a bookfair outside of London?


Or she


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Or she


tbh is definitely a he


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## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Or she


Adds a moment of certainty to the thread: _no_.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 31, 2021)

Who was that I was talking to the other day, then?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Who was that I was talking to the other day, then?


i don't know, who were you talking to the other day?


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## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Or she


Is he identifying as a she these days, autonomously obviously?


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## A380 (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> anarchists have been a model of restraint and good comradeship in comparison to the labour party these many years


 TBF that’s not a high bar you are setting yourselves there. A bucket of hungry rats would also score higher than ‘my’ lot…


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## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

I don't think gender identity japes are a good road for this thread to go down.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know, who were you talking to the other day?


Hang on. I'll just ask a 'friend' in Special Branch.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Hang on. I'll just ask a 'friend' in Special Branch.


yeh phone a friend. or ask the audience.


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## SE22 (Aug 31, 2021)

> I don't think gender identity japes are a good road for this thread to go down.



Why stop now?  It's what it always come back to with this crowd.

And you wonder why people don't want your shitty orgs at their bookfairs.

https://twitter.com/binacg2


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## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2021)

Blimey


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## Athos (Aug 31, 2021)

SE22 said:


> Why stop now?  It's what it always come back to with this crowd.
> 
> And you wonder why people don't want your shitty orgs at their bookfairs.
> 
> https://twitter.com/binacg2


Utterly bonkers, but at least has the courage to say what Rhyddical won't.

ETA: Scratch that, as it seems this twitter account could be a Rhyddical sock puppet.


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 31, 2021)

Welcome to the boards SE22 

I am struggling to reconcile the tweet you linked to with what the ACG has published on trans rights.

Perhaps you have some evidence you can post that will help me out? The medium blog would appear to be hearsay except for one interview with the ACG it links to, which doesn’t mention transgender issues iirc.


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## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2021)

Nice to know I’m not the only person on here who makes an arse of themselves on Twitter


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## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

SE22 said:


> Why stop now?  It's what it always come back to with this crowd.
> 
> And you wonder why people don't want your shitty orgs at their bookfairs.
> 
> https://twitter.com/binacg2


First of all, none of the people “japing” were  ACG members. And secondly the bizarre, anonymous Twitter account you’ve linked to is hardly doing your case any favours.


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## DaveCinzano (Aug 31, 2021)

Turned out nice again


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## Serge Forward (Aug 31, 2021)

What happened to binacg1? And what has the poor AWSM done/not done to incur this eejit's wrath?


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## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

SE22 said:


> Why stop now?  It's what it always come back to with this crowd.
> 
> And you wonder why people don't want your shitty orgs at their bookfairs.
> 
> https://twitter.com/binacg2


For the avoidance of doubt, I am not an ACG member, and the ACG should not be blamed for my posts. I am a member of Unison, but they don't have a stall at the bookfair - rightly so, since they're a hierarchical and reformist group, although fwiw I think we do actually have quite a good position in support of trans rights. Which just goes to show that trans people and their allies are mostly winning the argument within the broad working-class movement, or what's left of it.
Anyway, in your opinion, what would the ACG need to do to stop being transphobic? For what it's worth, I think their current statement on trans rights is quite good, and an improvement on the previous one. I notice that medium article, which I presume is yours, says "Their characterisation of Feminism and Tran-rights as two separate entities’ show how much they’ve drank the terf talking points, but hey, They apparently just want to help transies and the women who hate them get along eh?" The current ACG statement says "We believe that it is unhelpful to set up a false dichotomy, as has widely been done, between “feminism” and “trans rights”. These are not struggles inherently in opposition to each other, but which are worth fighting for together". Now, it could be that the ACG are liars, like their father the devil, and when they say that they actually mean something completely different, but if that's what we're going to assume then it's hard to see any way forward really.


Athos said:


> Utterly bonkers, but at least has the courage to say what Rhyddical won't.
> 
> ETA: Scratch that, as it seems this twitter account could be a Rhyddical sock puppet.


Fwiw, I'm pretty sure that Rhyddical and SE22 are two different people. The binacg person seems like they're shouting at the bookfair collective from the outside, and I imagine that if they had access to the bookfair email account the ACG would at least have received a clear and unambiguous answer to their enquiries by now.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 31, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> What happened to binacg1? And what has the poor AWSM done/not done to incur this eejit's wrath?


AWSM seem like a nice bunch whenever we’ve zoomed them.  I suppose that’s them condemned now, though.


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## Serge Forward (Aug 31, 2021)

Yeah, I don't think it's the same people. There is one utter stain who does spring to mind though <taps nose>


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## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

In passing, I thought I was a proper nerd about this stuff, but the mention of the FDA really had me scratching my head there. On reflection, I think it's probably the Föderation deutschsprachiger AnarchistInnen and not the Food and Drug Administration who are accused of... something or other, but who knows?


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## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

SE22 said:


> Why stop now?  It's what it always come back to with this crowd.
> 
> And you wonder why people don't want your shitty orgs at their bookfairs.
> 
> https://twitter.com/binacg2


Well, as opening posts go...


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## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

Anyway, my manners... pull up a chair newbie, kettles on. Welcome to our little online community.  It's all mutual respect and hobnobs round here.


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## DaveCinzano (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Anyway, my manners... pull up a chair newbie, kettles on. Welcome to our little online community.  It's all mutual respect and hobnobs round here.


Oh, I don't think they're a complete stranger 🤣



> ...three members of ACG were in a thread with a member of the bookfair collective on Urban75...


----------



## Wilf (Aug 31, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Oh, I don't think they're a complete stranger 🤣


Friends Reunited.


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## Serge Forward (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Fiends Reunited.


Fixed.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 31, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Friends Reunited.


The Ghost of Bebo Past 👻


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## charlie mowbray (Sep 1, 2021)

FWIW, Plan C have taken a friendly attitude towards the ACG after the 2017 Bookfair and Plan C members were at the large meeting in North London ( over 50 people)  in early 2018, which included members of the old Bookfair Collective, Haringey Solidarity Group etc etc to discuss the repercussions. So no, they wouldn't have tried to block us from having a stall.


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## A380 (Sep 1, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> FWIW, Plan C have taken a friendly attitude towards the ACG after the 2017 Bookfair and Plan C members were at the large meeting in North London ( over 50 people)  in early 2018, which included members of the old Bookfair Collective, Haringey Solidarity Group etc etc to discuss the repercussions. So no, they wouldn't have tried to block us from having a stall.



Weren’t Plan C  in that really rubbish Sweeny reboot film with Ray Winston? Seems an odd thing for an Anarchist group to do…


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 1, 2021)

Examine the same spelling mistakes e.g. "doxxing" instead of "doxing", " arn't " instead of "aren't" the same quite uncommon greeting "heya", plus many other expressions and turns of phrase, as well as a detailed knowledge of what happened inside the AF leading up to and after the split, and alarm bells start ringing. I'm saying nothing more.


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## AmateurAgitator (Sep 1, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Anyway I'm out of this, it's a very depressing episode, fuck the pathetic teenage-like weirdo anarchist scene.


We're not all like that though. Don't let the bastards grind you down.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> FWIW, Plan C have taken a friendly attitude towards the ACG after the 2017 Bookfair and Plan C members were at the large meeting in North London ( over 50 people)  in early 2018, which included members of the old Bookfair Collective, Haringey Solidarity Group etc etc to discuss the repercussions. So no, they wouldn't have tried to block us from having a stall.


Yeah, I was going to say that from my knowledge of Plan C they seem very much opposed to that way of doing things, so I would've been very surprised if that was the case.


A380 said:


> Weren’t Plan C  in that really rubbish Sweeny reboot film with Ray Winston? Seems an odd thing for an Anarchist group to do…


Maybe, but I don't think you should be banned from the bookfair for being in a rubbish film with Ray Winston.


charlie mowbray said:


> Examine the same spelling mistakes e.g. "doxxing" instead of "doxing", " arn't " instead of "aren't" the same quite uncommon greeting "heya", plus many other expressions and turns of phrase, as well as a detailed knowledge of what happened inside the AF leading up to and after the split, and alarm bells start ringing. I'm saying nothing more.


Fwiw, doxxing is a pretty common way of spelling it, most dictionaries will give that variant, it's the spelling used in IGD's regular antifascist column and so on, so I wouldn't think of that spelling as being distinctive. I can see how the overall writing styles feel a bit similar, though.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

In passing, I looked up SE22 to see where it was, and realised I actually know where it is and someone I know used to live round there, which may not be impressive to anyone else but was surprising for me cos I really don't know that much of London. So if the East Dulwich bookfair ever happens, we may all be banned from it, but at least it's near that really fancy Wetherspoons that used to be a cinema.


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> Examine the same spelling mistakes e.g. "doxxing" instead of "doxing", " arn't " instead of "aren't" the same quite uncommon greeting "heya", plus many other expressions and turns of phrase, as well as a detailed knowledge of what happened inside the AF leading up to and after the split, and alarm bells start ringing. I'm saying nothing more.


There are so many idiosyncratic similarities that it's highly unlikely that Rhyddical and the author of that twitter account are different people. I'm calling sock puppet.

And I suspect SE22 is a Rhyddical sock puppet here, too.


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> There are so many idiosyncratic similarities that it's highly unlikely that Rhyddical and the author of that twitter account are different people. I'm calling sock puppet.
> 
> And I suspect SE22 is a Rhyddical sock puppet here, too.



Tbh I don't really care. It doesn't make this any more or less toxic than it already is.

I'm not spending £25 to go into London next Saturday now though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> Examine the same spelling mistakes e.g. "doxxing" instead of "doxing", " arn't " instead of "aren't" the same quite uncommon greeting "heya", plus many other expressions and turns of phrase, as well as a detailed knowledge of what happened inside the AF leading up to and after the split, and alarm bells start ringing. I'm saying nothing more.


The master criminal always makes one fatal error and theirs was not using a spellchecker


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I did used to have a pet theory that having a functioning infrastructure to take care of acted as a restraint on political disputes getting too nasty, based on the relative stability of things like the 1 in 12 or Cowley clubs, where there would actually be some level of real material consequences to the people running them not being able to settle their differences in a reasonable manner. Having said that, as noted above, the past five or six years of Labour Party stuff seems to completely fuck my theory out of the water.


Obviously not familiar with recent developments at the Cowley Club then!


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The master criminal always makes one fatal error and theirs was not using a spellchecker


Stealing the bookfair is just a distraction, all this time he's been tunneling into Wetherspoons!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Stealing the bookfair is just a distraction, all this time he's been tunneling into Wetherspoons!


The adventure of the red and black headed league


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 1, 2021)

There is a tweet from the "binACG2" twitter account that accuses Rhydical of being a TERF. 

So who knows? Not me that's for sure.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2021)

I don't want to dig up old shit, but I'd be interested in seeing the old ACG statement on trans rights. I'd be cool with a PM of it, as I don't want to stir old beef,  just so I can make my own judgements on how  egregious it is.


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There is a tweet from the "binACG2" twitter account that accuses Rhydical of being a TERF.
> 
> So who knows? Not me that's for sure.


A genius double bluff.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I don't want to dig up old shit, but I'd be interested in seeing the old ACG statement on trans rights. I'd be cool with a PM of it, as I don't want to stir old beef,  just so I can make my own judgements on how  egregious it is.


It’s still on the website.

But I’ll PM it to you.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Obviously not familiar with recent developments at the Cowley Club then!


LDC did mention above that my impression of the Cowley seemed a bit out of date. Which is fine, I suppose, I don't live in Brighton and don't need to know about it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s still on the website.
> 
> But I’ll PM it to you.


Lol, it’s not. I’ll see if I can find a draft.  

However it’s not that dissimilar to the new one. We just felt it needed refreshed.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

It’s actually on this thread: London Anarchist bookfair 2020

ETA - directs to a particular post by Serge Forward


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I don't want to dig up old shit, but I'd be interested in seeing the old ACG statement on trans rights. I'd be cool with a PM of it, as I don't want to stir old beef,  just so I can make my own judgements on how  egregious it is.


I think you'll find that on this issue any calls for peace, love and understanding will be deemed egregious by some.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s actually on this thread: London Anarchist bookfair 2020


Well 70+ pages for an event in London. I might have a good bit of time on my hands, but there are limits.

And thanks for sending it through. For what it's worth, it doesn't sound like an unreasonable statement and doesn't strike me as transphobic in any way, but what would I know.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> Well 70+ pages for an event in London. I might have a good bit of time on my hands, but there are limits.
> 
> And thanks for sending it through. For what it's worth, it doesn't sound like an unreasonable statement and doesn't strike me as transphobic in any way, but what would I now.


The link was to a particular post from comrade Serge.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> The link was to a particular post from comrade Serge.


Oh, FFS. I've now started reading the whole thread. I planned on doing shit today.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There is a tweet from the "binACG2" twitter account that accuses Rhydical of being a TERF.
> 
> So who knows? Not me that's for sure.


In the Soviet era you could get denounced by your ideologically pure children.  Getting denounced by your own sockpuppet is the way it runs in the internet age.


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

I think it'd be pretty insulting for anyone to pretend this has anything to do with transphobia at this point.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> Well 70+ pages for an event in London. I might have a good bit of time on my hands, but there are limits.
> 
> And thanks for sending it through. For what it's worth, it doesn't sound like an unreasonable statement and doesn't strike me as transphobic in any way, but what would I know.


Don't tell him Pike!


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Lol, it’s not. I’ll see if I can find a draft.
> 
> However it’s not that dissimilar to the new one. We just felt it needed refreshed.


Fwiw, I think it is still on the website, just you have to scroll down a long way to read it:








						Statements - Anarchist Communist Group
					

The following are statements by the Anarchist Communist Group since its formation in February 2018,         8 April 2021 (this statement supersedes the earlier statement of 11 August 2019)    Trans Rights Statement    We, the ACG, reaffirm our support for trans and non-binary people. We...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org
				




Might make that page easier to navigate if you added a table of contents thing at the top with links to the point on the page where each statement starts, which I don't know how to do myself but imagine would be fairly possible for someone who's better at web design than me to do?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> In the Soviet era you could get denounced by your ideologically pure children.  Getting denounced by your own sockpuppet is the way it runs in the internet age.


Given Rhyddical's record of giving clear, straightforward answers to straightforward questions, I'm sure they'll be along shortly to give a neat, unambiguous answer that everyone can be satisfied with on the question of whether or not they're East Dulwich postcode and/or a terf.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fwiw, I think it is still on the website, just you have to scroll down a long way to read it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sadly I’m one of those in charge of upkeep of the website. I’m 56. These are all my own teeth.

But, yeah, the substantive point is that the old statement is still sound. It just needed to flow a bit better. 

And there’s no dog whistles because we have no intention of giving succour to transphobes.  Of course, as chilango says, whatever the issue those who have problems with us have, it’s not transphobia.  What it is, I have no idea. 

But I’m happy to discuss it with SE22 They don’t know me, but they seem to be happy to decide what I secretly believe inside, despite my words and actions.


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that the ACG's response to trans stuff is perfect. No one's has been. Including Urban (one reason why I've not been posting as much here recently). 

But "not perfect" does not mean transphobic.

...and I'll tell you one thing for sure, all of this toxic bullshit does not aid our trans comrades nor the wider movements one bit.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sadly I’m one of those in charge of upkeep of the website. I’m 56. These are all my own teeth.
> 
> But, yeah, the substantive point is that the old statement is still sound. It just needed to flow a bit better.
> 
> ...


If there was one positive to come out of this whole shit show it would be if critics of the ACG and/or bookfair collective actually engaged with this statement.  As it is, they seem stuck in what probably feels like a comfortable place, denunciations and red lines.  As you mention Danny and also Chilango, this has become disconnected from what the actual politics and positions of the ACG are.  Not uncommon for political (and personal) battles to end up like that, but it's also very depressing and even a bit disturbing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

chilango said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that the ACG's response to trans stuff is perfect. No one's has been. Including Urban (one reason why I've not been posting as much here recently).
> 
> But "not perfect" does not mean transphobic.
> 
> ...and I'll tell you one thing for sure, all of this toxic bullshit does not aid our trans comrades nor the wider movements one bit.


Exactly.

I know I’m not perfect. Think I can do better? You’re probably right. Talk to me.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 1, 2021)

chilango said:


> I think it'd be pretty insulting for anyone to pretend this has anything to do with transphobia at this point.


Why do you hate trans people !!! 

(Is what some people would say in response to that )


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> If there was one positive to come out of this whole shit show it would be if critics of the ACG and/or bookfair collective actually engaged with this statement.


i dont think those 2 statements are per se the big offending issue...


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Might make that page easier to navigate if you added a table of contents thing at the top with links to the point on the page where each statement starts, which I don't know how to do myself but imagine would be fairly possible for someone who's better at web design than me to do?


Theyve only just discovered PDFs! One step at a time.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont think those 2 statements are per se the big offending issue...


No I agree.  I know about the split and about the supposed support for particular alleged terfs circa 2017-18, though I'm not involved and don't know about any other flashpoints. However the statements look like a way of moving on and getting some degree of mutual accommodation.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> No I agree.  I know about the split and about the supposed support for particular alleged terfs circa 2017-18, though I'm not involved and don't know about any other flashpoints. However the statements look like a way of moving on and getting some degree of mutual accommodation.


...though the point I'm grasping for isn't even about the statements. It just that the denunciations are very much of the fingers in ears shouty type.  All very reassuring as a way of shoring up certainty and red lines, but not a very mature way of dealing with comrades.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 1, 2021)

Hang on, there’s something about bus stops. Maybe ACG have been banned for being unkind about the the hostile architecture smashers


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

i tried to ignore it but have to ask now - wtf is this bus stop (hostile architecture) thing? 
facepalm is ready


----------



## belboid (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i tried to ignore it but have to ask now - wtf is this bus stop (hostile architecture) thing?
> facepalm is ready


Anti homeless bullshit.  Spikes and slanted seats all over the shop


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Hang on, there’s something about bus stops. Maybe ACG have been banned for being unkind about the the hostile architecture smashers


As far as I know nobody’s had any contact with them. I certainly hadn’t heard of them.

Hostile architecture is nasty shit though.


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

The smashing up of a bus stop isn't my issue with what I've read from FSA. It's the nihilistic "green anarchist" stuff.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i tried to ignore it but have to ask now - wtf is this bus stop (hostile architecture) thing?
> facepalm is ready


*December 12 2020:*




> greenanticapitalistmedia​We got sent this photo of an action taken in London against advertising. The influence of capitalism extends into almost every waking minute of our life. Even small actions like this, if reproduced everywhere, can help deestablise the beast and undermine it's control over our minds. No matter how big or small, start planning and taking action right now!
> 
> Fuck ads! Fuck capitalism!
> 
> ...



*29 May, 2021:*



> Unsurprisingly we have also had lots of issues with tankie groups. After we posted an action where windows of a bus stop had been smashed we received a fuck tonne of abuse online. Several members of the *Young Communist League* attacked us online labelling us as “counter revolutionary”. We aren’t surprised they care more about a broken window then multiple reports of sexual harassment and sexual assault from within the group. [...] It was very clear from the response to the bus stop action that our local scene was not a safe space for us. We’ve accepted this and moved on. [...]
> The bus stop action also caused for us to be further copjacketed, this time by mostly British Marxist-Leninists and anarcho-communists. While again entertaining this really irritated us as people we would consider to be comrades had once again abandoned us and sided with the enemy. Copjacketing is a very harmful thing in leftist scenes. We encourage people to be more cautious about it.
> 
> Project Full Stop Affinity taught us very quickly that the left hate us, and we hate the left.











						Full Stop Affinity's Final Statement - Green Anti-Capitalist Media
					

Our friends in Full Stop Affinity have sent us their final statement previous to their disbandment as a group




					greenanticapitalist.org


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> No I agree.  I know about the split and about the supposed support for particular alleged terfs circa 2017-18, though I'm not involved and don't know about any other flashpoints. However the statements look like a way of moving on and getting some degree of mutual accommodation.


I really don’t think it’s about anything anyone actually did.

The vast majority of the ACG membership weren’t involved in that debacle. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know the ins and outs.  It sounds messy, as these things often are.  What I do know is that my comrades who were involved are decent and honourable people who will have acted in good faith with the best of intentions, and with sound politics behind what they were doing. You know some of them. They’re people with a long history of working class activism between them.  

I’m not interested in interpersonal beef that people may have with my comrades. But whoever does could just be honest instead of making up grievances about politics that aren’t there.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I really don’t think it’s about anything anyone actually did.
> 
> The vast majority of the ACG membership weren’t involved in that debacle. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know the ins and outs.  It sounds messy, as these things often are.  What I do know is that my comrades who were involved are decent and honourable people who will have acted in good faith with the best of intentions, and with sound politics behind what they were doing. You know some of them. They’re people with a long history of working class activism between them.
> 
> I’m not interested in interpersonal beef that people may have with my comrades. But whoever does could just be honest instead of making up grievances about politics that aren’t there.


Yeah, I'm definitely not suggesting there's been any kind of ongoing offence given, just agreeing with Ska that this was all set in stone some years back. Fwiw, again from my limited reading of events, I have a lot of sympathy for the original bookfair collective and the way they were treated.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 1, 2021)

FSA are right that the revolution won't happen before the world dies and that the far left are a waste of time on the whole. No offence.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2021)

chilango said:


> The smashing up of a bus stop isn't my issue with what I've read from FSA. It's the nihilistic "green anarchist" stuff.


FSA?


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> FSA?


Full Stop Affinity.

A former group that's tangentially related to this beef.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 1, 2021)

I don't want to overstate Full Stop Affinity's importance, but the Q was asked about the bus stops, so I posted that here - using actual sources and quotes that can be checked against the original.

For outsiders (and a particular newbie) reading this thread, this is how you do this. 

What people have actually said and done should be the starting point for these discussions.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I don't want to overstate Full Stop Affinity's importance, but the Q was asked about the bus stops, so I posted that here - using actual sources and quotes that can be checked against the original.
> 
> For outsiders (and a particular newbie) reading this thread, this is how you do this.
> 
> What people have actually said and done should be the starting point for these discussions.


thanks for doing it...i still dont get how any fuss at all was made over a bit of graf on a bus stop


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> thanks for doing it...i sitll dont get how any fuss at all was made over a big of graf on a bus stop


I can see why the YCL would, but I don't hold them in any regard anyway.

I have no issue with the bus stop looking like that. It's better than seeing adverts on it. I've seen some local stops with big wide screen tellies embedded and what must be the guts of a PC running it. They must be ripe for boosting.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

Bookfair decisions have absolutely nothing to do with the AF.

But I'm gunna address some of the AF stuff upthread. Sorry about the rant, and though I hate to air shit openly, I think it needs to be stated so people can give their heads a wobble and reassess some of the bullshit they harbour.

Some folk seem to feel that we've spent the past 5 years stewing and have dedicated our lives to being upset about it. We have not. So a dozen folk felt unable to work in a space that would react severely to what we perceived as transphobic dogwhistling, it was a poorly worded statement, which unconsciously contained a lot of problematic elements which better informed people told them were problematic, they edited it out . If what people told me at a bunch of bookfairs since is right, those who left felt it was IDPOL liberalism, _(IDPOL here not meaning Identity Politics in it's original framing but the right wing's appopriation of the term to me "identity focused, supremacists who use cross class anatgonism and dog piling to force their way")_. I disagree with that assessment obviously. They wrote a unconsciously poorly worded statement and couldn't deal with the trans (and others) membership being rightly upset. They did edit the statement th, so it shows that some of the thoughts were taken onboard. I think it's still got problematic elements and there remains to this day a loose "we should work to heal the rift" manner which makes sense in one way but for those suffering transphobia remains a "what you want us to work with our bigots?" line and clearly people thing it's a thing. Thus that "BinACG", who is obviously someone in the milleu since they do indeed know some of the internal gossip. It isn't me tho, fuck I didn't even read it until I was forced to weeks later.

It's a shame [Redacted] is HEAVILY IMPLYING BUT NOT QUITE SAYING that I'm this shit account "outting them", their analysis of my writing patterns is clearly not CSI level. We spoke directly and he accepted it wasn't me and chose to delete comments they had put on twitter. Someone subsequently posted my personal details and called me a Transphobe, which, truly, I appreciate the irony off. If they had taken me up on my polite hellos the last four times we've bumped into each other instead of playing the silent game, they might know that this fantasy; that I or anyone else in the AF, care or harbour some deep resentment, is simply not true. You don't come up that often, we're busy folk and it's really not that important. This whole thing which they are basing their response off is one sided.

I have absolutely zero love for internet drama (... looks at thread... honestly! lol) and I hate having to air dirty laudry like this but I'm also not keen on people who know better chatting shit online and I suspect offline to anyone and everyone. You telling people that I'm some anonymous twitter account with an issue, puts people at threat. It's not just the doxing me it's also jacketing me which is a fucking problem. You need to pack that shit in comrade, it's not cool. you apologised and said you didn't know what OPSEC is, thats ok, maybe it's a generational thing idk, but you know what jacket is and it's a bit of a dick move mate.

But back to AF stuff. we don't think it was some super evil HOW DARE THEY, move to leave. There is nothing precious about these organisations, free associate with the ones that work for you and swap and change as you wish. Nobody cares. Fuck, we kept radio silence and never issued any statement to keep beefing to a minimal, those who knew the details knew them. No need to engaging in a pissing war, this despite the verbal we got on the grapevine, with literally dozens of people coming up to us at following bookfairs saying "I was told that you lot XYZ" mostly that we're liberals now, that we don't care about class, that we only care about being SJWs etc etc etc boring. No one cares mate.

If anything those dozen people leaving was a relief, shame to loose some comrades, but we were then able to push through some changes such as becoming an overtly intersectional organisation and focus more on some of the broader aspects of Anarchist Communist organising. I'm happy they are working in a space they feel more comfortable. The AF doesn't care, we certainly aint doing any shenanigans. The depth of interest is limited too "ah cool a growing anarchist org" and "oh they've taken up Platformism, atleast the two organisations are a bit more politically distinct".

Far as I can tell, gossiping about us, cussing us out to anyone and everyone, kind of lost steam a couple years back and everyone moved on.
So please, on a personal level here, for the love of fuck, move on.

Whatever imagined beef you think you have with me, that you think is leading some fantastical plot, that you think I stay up at night grinding my teeth over, influnecing the orgs I'm in to do my evil bidding, please for the love of all that is holy, stop projecting that on the 100 or so other people in the AF. No one cares, I'm sorry if no one has actually wrote you a letter or statement about it but here it is, we don't care, best of luck to you, thanks for the fish.

Certainly stop posting shit on open forums such as this and twitter to stoke fires and drama. You have the capacity to fucking message me and actually have a conversation, like next time we bump into each other, say hello. I really harbour no resentment, I disagree with some of your politcs, big woop, you gotta let this personal stuff go mate.

IDK, is all this coz the AF blocked you lot on Twitter? We did that coz shortly after the whole "Don't support the movement in Belarus, thats a fascist flag" bullshit thread, one of your admins was clearly drunk and posting random shit towards us. We simply had enough of polite silence and wishing to avoid drama, blocked you. We're busy folk and don't have time for random internet spats laden with bad faith and aggy.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I can see why the YCL would, but I don't hold them in any regard anyway.
> 
> I have no issue with the bus stop looking like that. It's better than seeing adverts on it. I've seen some local stops with big wide screen tellies embedded and what must be the guts of a PC running it. They must be ripe for boosting.


Now that I know the issue was anti homeless architecture I understand the motivation.  I hadn’t picked up on that detail before. Hostile architecture is cunt’s trick.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Now that I know the issue was anti homeless architecture I understand the motivation.  I hadn’t picked up on that detail before. Hostile architecture is cunt’s trick.


i thought it was about adverts being bad? thats what the thing Fozzie posted was saying?
anyway i dont think any of this is relevant
or important


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Far as I can tell, gossiping about us, cussing us out to anyone and everyone,


Literally didn’t happen.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Literally didn’t happen.



Happy to hear it.

In that case you've got people across the country shit stirring by inventing things and then coming up to ask us about  X and Y which they'd heard from [redacted] etc etc. It also doesn't help that some of your members post very similar things on their socials. Just saying. Like I've stood at tables and had person after person say stuff about what they'd heard from your peeps about the AF. Mostly that we are SJW,IDPOL Obsessed,Liberals, don't care about class etc etc

Truly tho, hope it's not true, nothing would bring me more joy in the world that a status of mutual respect and understanding. So far tho, it seems to be in one direction. You should have your guys message our guys, get it sorted out, cos if we don't think what you think we think and you don't think what we think you think, there is no reason to not get along eh?

Theme tune for Anarchism in the UK.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

I mean wouldn't it be just wild if all the major anarchy crews in the UK.................work together................. just planting seeds.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Happy to hear it.


Good. Maybe we can move forward.

I joined the ACG after the split and those involved in the split have been very circumspect and diplomatic about it.  And, importantly, they are now a small minority of the organisation.  The vast majority weren’t there, weren’t involved, and are sick fed up being tarred as transphobes because of this.  The sooner the Matthew Hopkins-alike rumours and smears stop the better.

I’m glad that you’ve clarified you don’t think the ACG is transphobic.  I’m happy to take your word that the cowardly and bizarre anonymous BinACG account is not you.  You’ve rightly condemned it too. Thank you. And I’m sorry to hear someone posted your details and called you transphobic.  That’s out of order.

This feels like a clearing of air.  Give me a shout if you’re in Glasgow. We can get a pint and have a blether.


----------



## JimW (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Bookfair decisions have absolutely nothing to do with the AF.
> 
> But I'm gunna address some of the AF stuff upthread. Sorry about the rant, and though I hate to air shit openly, I think it needs to be stated so people can give their heads a wobble and reassess some of the bullshit they harbour.
> 
> ...


Still don't get why any of this means you couldn't have either answered a straight question or said you weren't in a position to, which was all that was required and is pretty basic for an event organising collective.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I mean wouldn't it be just wild if all the major anarchy crews in the UK.................work together................. just planting seeds.


That's what the bookfair is for. Helps by not banning stalls and not saying why.  Though you've just explained why above.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 1, 2021)

This thread 

I’m interested in the ideas and praxis underlying anarchism but seeing factions have all this small-p politics with each other makes me want to stay a million miles from the people and groups involved. Who has the time or emotional bandwidth for this shit?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This thread
> 
> I’m interested in the ideas and praxis underlying anarchism but seeing factions have all this small-p politics with each other makes me want to stay a million miles from the people and groups involved. Who has the time or emotional bandwidth for this shit?


Sorry to hear that. But I quite understand why.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Good. Maybe we can move forward.
> 
> I joined the ACG after the split and those involved in the split have been very circumspect and diplomatic about it.  And, importantly, they are now a small minority of the organisation.  The vast majority weren’t there, weren’t involved, and are sick fed up being tarred as transphobes because of this.  The sooner the Matthew Hopkins-alike rumours and smears stop the better.
> 
> ...




Steady on now... we can't have Urban 75 being the spring board for Anarchism getting along in the UK, it's got a reputation to keep up. ;p


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

JimW said:


> Still don't get why any of this means you couldn't have either answered a straight question or said you weren't in a position to, which was all that was required and is pretty basic for an event organising collective.


While I understand that's frustrating, and apologies for the seemingly pointed silence (truly didn't see just how volumous that was) but I'm not addressing certain things for certain reasons.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> While I understand that's frustrating, and apologies for the seemingly pointed silence (truly didn't see just how volumous that was) but I'm not addressing certain things for certain reasons.


 But you could tell us what they are confidentially, couldn’t you? Then we’d know why we aren’t getting a stall and could plan accordingly.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> That's what the bookfair is for. Helps by not banning stalls and not saying why.  Though you've just explained why above.


The above is from me as a person and I guess as an AF member.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> But you could tell us what they are confidentially, couldn’t you? Then we’d know why we aren’t getting a stall and could plan accordingly.


It's all a bit Kafkaesque


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This thread
> 
> I’m interested in the ideas and praxis underlying anarchism but seeing factions have all this small-p politics with each other makes me want to stay a million miles from the people and groups involved. Who has the time or emotional bandwidth for this shit?


It's partly what comes from being few in number, from being largely disassociated from communities and workplaces, from lacking enough core assumptions about what anarchism means. Even a reasonably numerous number of people spread out over the whole country find it difficult to act collectively. A small number of individuals can easily come to dominate organisations without even trying to. Where anarchist movements elsewhere in the world have become mass movements their whole approach has been more coherent, more democratic, more effective.

Having said that, there can also be a strength in diversity, though not very evident here sometimes.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This thread
> 
> I’m interested in the ideas and praxis underlying anarchism but seeing factions have all this small-p politics with each other makes me want to stay a million miles from the people and groups involved. Who has the time or emotional bandwidth for this shit?



Yeah, honestly it's this shit which keeps half my active mates out of organising, and it's 90% miscommunication and aggy responses. It is tho like the least of what Anarchism is the UK, Thread might have an ego, but I wouldn't take it as the start and finish of Anarchist organising which in reality is often much more comradely and all about direct action and mutual aid.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> it's 90% miscommunication


😐


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Communication is good. I’m all for communication.


----------



## LDC (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> ...and it's 90% miscommunication...



Oh that's fantastic from someone involved in a project that seemingly cannot reply to emails or answer simple questions.

Workshops needed at this year's bookfair:

1) Where to buy a diary from and how to use it.
2) Basic communication skills; replying to emails and messages.
3) How to turn up on time and other mysteries of the universe solved.
4) Behaving like a toddler in disputes: is it all that it's cracked up to be?
5) Taking on projects and not actually lunching them out.
6) Revolutionaries or fucked-up weirdos; your difficult questions answered.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> While I understand that's frustrating, and apologies for the seemingly pointed silence (truly didn't see just how volumous that was) but I'm not addressing certain things for certain reasons.


So, it's nothing as petty as a political disagreement around the AF/ACG split... and it's something so important you couldn't even reply to the ACG to let them know whether they should plan for running a stall.  That would have to be at the level of a major threat to someone's/a group of people's wellbeing or safety. Whatever your reason for not doing the normal things that event organisers do would have to be at that level of seriousness?  If there really is something so threatening in play, I really hope you'll follow Danny's suggestion and enter into a confidential dialogue.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

"I'm not addressing certain things for certain reasons."

Draws you in, doesn't it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> "I'm not addressing certain things for certain reasons."
> 
> Draws you in, doesn't it?


“But stop speculating”.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 1, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 6) Revolutionaries or fucked-up weirdos; your difficult questions answered.



Actually a great name for a session.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 1, 2021)

If you're implying anyone from the ACG doxed you on social media, then you are mistaken. As to AF members letting us wend our merry way, well that's not totally accurate either with at least 3 AF members coming on to our FB pages and hurling insults at us like, for example, "The only thing you do is print pamphlets".


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> ...coming on to our FB pages and hurling insults at us like, for example, "The only thing you do is print pamphlets".



In some contexts that could be seen as a compliment.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

chilango said:


> In some contexts that could be seen as a compliment.


Have to admit that it sounded like the sort of anarchism that I might be able to get involved with!


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh that's fantastic from someone involved in a project that seemingly cannot reply to emails or answer simple questions.
> 
> Workshops needed at this year's bookfair:


Nearly a decade old now, but I still have a lot of love for this old blogpost:




__





						Summer 2012 Free Skool Classes
					

A website for anarchist communication, coordination, and information in New Orleans, LA.




					nolaanarcha.blogspot.com


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 1, 2021)

"Far as I can tell, gossiping about us, cussing us out to anyone and everyone, kind of lost steam a couple years back and everyone moved on.
So please, on a personal level here, for the love of fuck, move on."
Sure thing, soon as you tell us why you're not letting the ACG have a stall.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> If you're implying anyone from the ACG doxed you on social media, then you are mistaken. As to AF members letting us wend our merry way, well that's not totally accurate either with at least 3 AF members coming on to our FB pages and hurling insults at us like, for example, "The only thing you do is print pamphlets".


They're tapping their fingers waiting for the pdf


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> They're tapping their fingers waiting for the pdf


Nah, I think Rhyddical's got an Arts Council Grant.  Long soliloquies, a bit of capering, the hand of friendship swapped for a raspberry, a bit of street dance, all capped off with '_NOT TELLIN' YA_'.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Have to admit that it sounded like the sort of anarchism that I might be able to get involved with!


Are you involved with anything at the moment or recently?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Are you involved with anything at the moment or recently?


Not really, no.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Is there a performance space at the bookfair? Perhaps ACG members could symbolically erect an invisible stall.  

Provisional title: _If I can't dance put up a stall, I don't want to be part of your revolution Bookfair._


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

I’ll symbolically erect a stall here in Glasgow G20.  In that I’ll not do anything of the sort.


----------



## LDN Bookfair (Sep 1, 2021)

Just wanted to say, Rhyddical in their comments here do not represent the Anarchist Bookfair in London collective and it talking in a personal capacity only. In fact, this admin thinks that Rhyddical, while being generally a good comrade, is making a total arse of themselves here. But that's their choice really.

This is the first and the last time I will be commenting here. This is also the last time I am bothering to even look at this forum. Have fun throwing bile at each other and everyone in the vicinity.


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

Lol


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’m interested in the ideas and praxis underlying anarchism but seeing factions have all this small-p politics with each other makes me want to stay a million miles from the people and groups involved. Who has the time or emotional bandwidth for this shit?


I dont think theres anything happening here that's unique to anarchism, i think this is (potentially) prevalent across all groupings working to be trans-friendly, big or small. TERF related discussions are an area that are proving divisive everywhere. Sian Berry just quit the leadership of the Green Party over this, for example.


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

LDN Bookfair said:


> Just wanted to say, Rhyddical in their comments here do not represent the Anarchist Bookfair in London collective and it talking in a personal capacity only. In fact, this admin thinks that Rhyddical, while being generally a good comrade, is making a total arse of themselves here. But that's their choice really.
> 
> This is the first and the last time I will be commenting here. This is also the last time I am bothering to even look at this forum. Have fun throwing bile at each other and everyone in the vicinity.


Perhaps you, or someone who is empowered to speak on behalf of the collective, could explain the decision to deny the ACG a stall (and the failure to communicate with them), please?


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

LDN Bookfair said:


> Rhyddical... is making a total arse of themselves here.


Finally an idea the whole movement can unite behind.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think theres anything happening here that's unique to anarchism, i think this is (potentially) prevalent across all groupings working to be trans-friendly, big or small. TERF related discussions are an area that are proving divisive everywhere. Sian Berry just quit the leadership of the Green Party over this, for example.


Aye, as has been mentioned above this is still a relatively a fluffy love-in compared to how our esteemed friends in the Labour Party manage their rows.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Aye, as has been mentioned above this is still a relatively a fluffy love-in compared to how our esteemed friends in the Labour Party manage their rows.


...including on Trans issues. There was a case of a CLP on the south coast a while back, I forget the details now, but carnage and wilful ignorance (ie ignoring the thorny issue) abounded as I remember it


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

If you want to see good and proper bile, have a look at Scottish pro independence Twitter.  There’s a group called “women won’t wheesht” mostly in the Alba Party now, who are total conspiracy nuts. _Nicola Sturgeon is part of a huge plot to let naked men into children’s changing rooms_ and all sorts of other unfounded nuttiness.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Well, this is a thread that somehow manages to have everything... and nothing.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge do you think that your comrades might pitch up with a 'pop-up' stall with their pamphlets outside of the book fair?


----------



## chilango (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Well, this is a thread that somehow manages to have everything... and nothing.



Mumbles something about negative dialectics before shuffling away.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 1, 2021)

Welcome to the boards LDN Bookfair


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Welcome to the boards LDN Bookfair


Yes, it's always great to get the official '_we're not telling you_' than the ersatz '_reasons, not telling you, reasons_'. I always knew it could be cleared up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2021)

LDN Bookfair said:


> In fact, this admin thinks that Rhyddical, while being generally a good comrade, is making a total arse of themselves here.


That's how splits start


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

I went to a union conference in Newcastle and went in what I thought was the building and had an extended conversation with reception and porters trying to find the training session.  10 minutes later I found I was in the wrong building. This thread.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> That's how splits start


'_The renegade running dog_'.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Well, LDN Bookfair , you could come for a dram with me. The Doublet is my usual.


----------



## Sue (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, LDN Bookfair , you could come for a dram with me. The Doublet is my usual.


Oh, I've been to The Doublet. My sister used to live near there. (Mine's a pint of 80/-.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Well, this is a thread that somehow manages to have everything... and nothing.


It was the best of threads, it was the worst of threads

--a tale of two bookfairs


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It was the best of threads, it was the worst of threads
> 
> --a tale of two bookfairs


_Please Sir, can I have a stall?_

- scarpers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> danny la rouge do you think that your comrades might pitch up with a 'pop-up' stall with their pamphlets outside of the book fair?


Which I suggested some pages back


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I went to a union conference in Newcastle and went in the wrong building and had an extended conversation with reception and porters trying to find the training session.  10 minutes later I found I was in the wrong building. This thread.


Bit like Spinal Tap in the cellar trying to find the exit to the stage


----------



## Athos (Sep 1, 2021)

The Fuckwit Papers
Bob Batshit
The Artless Dodger
Mr Bumble

Etc., etc.


----------



## JimW (Sep 1, 2021)

This bookfair has turned out to be quite a tricky job, perhaps next year they could start simpler and go for a piss-up in a brewery instead?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Bit like Spinal Tap in the cellar trying to find the exit to the stage


.... '_something, something about a stall the size of a mini-Stonehenge'_


----------



## JimW (Sep 1, 2021)

JimW said:


> This bookfair has turned out to be quite a tricky job, perhaps next year they could start simpler and go for a piss-up in a brewery instead?


And the beauty of this idea is it will in many ways resemble so many previous bookfairs.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Anyway, the collective have just lost another drummer.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

​


Wilf said:


> .... '_something, something about a stall the size of a mini-Stonehenge'_


 Rhyddical could be Artie Fufkin    "Do me a favor. Just kick my ass, okay? Kick this ass for a man, that's all. Kick my ass. Enjoy. Come on. I'm not asking, I'm telling with this. Kick my ass"


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I went to a union conference in Newcastle and went in the wrong building and had an extended conversation with reception and porters trying to find the training session.  10 minutes later I found I was in the wrong building. This thread.


Had a union branch meeting today where there was a motion proposed, everyone was happy with the demands and general aim, but some members of the committee were unhappy with some parts of the wording and perspective. Cue a lengthy discussion about whether it'd be better to go away, reword the motion so it was acceptable to everyone, and then vote on it at the next meeting, or vote on it today and try to resolve the matter straight away. We eventually decided to have a vote on whether to vote on it today or postpone it, and the majority voted to have a vote. Then we voted on it and the majority voted it down, so it was agreed that the proposers of the motion and their critics would go away, reword the motion so it was acceptable to everyone, and then vote on it at the next meeting. 😎 That's the proper, smoothly efficient, non-anarcho-scene class struggle for you.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2021)

Today's 'generally good' comrade is tomorrow's arch-enemy 🤷‍♂️


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Today's 'generally good' comrade is tomorrow's arch-enemy 🤷‍♂️


Sure these pages of the thread will be heavily discussed in the 2023 "binrhyddical" medium article. Or twitch stream or tiktok or whatever.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Sure these pages of the thread will be heavily discussed in the 2023 "binrhyddical" medium article. Or twitch stream or tiktok or whatever.


The Chronicles of Rhyddical have already been written


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 1, 2021)

A thankless task attempting to mediate between us and LDN Bookfair


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> A thankless task attempting to mediate between us and LDN Bookfair


There's got to be someone out there with the skills, tact, and diplomacy to calm things down, if only we could think of who. For some reason, the letters S and E and the number 22 are coming to mind.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> There's got to be someone out there with the skills, tact, and diplomacy to calm things down, if only we could think of who.


Ian Bone sounds perfect for the job


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

Always been very cynical perhaps unfairly about anarchism but I have to say this thread fully confirms my doubts .


----------



## LDC (Sep 1, 2021)

#notallanarchists


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always been very cynical perhaps unfairly about anarchism but I have to say this thread fully confirms my doubts .


Must admit the things I've been involved in organising have worked pretty well without having explicit roles within the group.  I've done it with a collective made up of people who themselves are in 3 or 4 different outfits along with other who are in none.  Sometimes you get arsey punters insisting that various things have to happen for their session and occasionally that stretches institutional loyalties in the group (along with all the truly personal shite that comes with the territory).  All that will be to the power of 10 running something like the London bookfair I imagine.  Feels quite healthy not having a secretary, chair and the rest, but then the things I've been involved in have had a magic number of about 6 which keeps it 'structureless'.  Having said all that, I've never been involved in anything requiring a multipage discussion thread finding different ways to _not _say why you can't have a stall (only to be trumped by someone from the same collective calling you an arse and then repeating that they won't tell you anything).  _No, never had that_.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Must admit the things I've been involved in organising have worked pretty well without having explicit roles within the group... Feels quite healthy not having a secretary, chair and the rest, but then the things I've been involved in have had a magic number of about 6 which keeps it 'structureless'.


Obligatory po-faced reminder that structurelessness is not the same thing as anarchism, I'm sure the ACG probably have some pamphlets to sell you on this point, which may or may not be available as PDFs.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Obligatory po-faced reminder that structurelessness is not the same thing as anarchism, I'm sure the ACG probably have some pamphlets to sell you on this point, which may or may not be available as PDFs.


Yes, see tyranny of...

Actually, I'm not so much structureless as just a bit rubbish.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Must admit the things I've been involved in organising have worked pretty well without having explicit roles within the group.  I've done it with a collective made up of people who themselves are in 3 or 4 different outfits along with other who are in none.  Sometimes you get arsey punters insisting that various things have to happen for their session and occasionally that stretches institutional loyalties in the group (along with all the truly personal shite that comes with the territory).  All that will be to the power of 10 running something like the London bookfair I imagine.  Feels quite healthy not having a secretary, chair and the rest, but then the things I've been involved in have had a magic number of about 6 which keeps it 'structureless'.


Actually, scratch that, I've just had a torrent of repressed memories - spats, threats of violence, buying the wrong beer...


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Obligatory po-faced reminder that structurelessness is not the same thing as anarchism, I'm sure the ACG probably have some pamphlets to sell you on this point, which may or may not be available as PDFs.











						Errico Malatesta, <em>Anarchism and Organisation</em> - Anarchist Communist Group
					

Written over a century ago, Malatesta’s arguments for the importance of organisation are as relevant today as ever. However for many in the anarchist movement the idea of ‘organisation’ is a dirty word. Malatesta, by stressing the importance of organisation for anarchists confirms an important...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org
				












						The Organisational Platform of the Libertarian Communists (PDF ebook) - Anarchist Communist Group
					

Still a controversial document, the Organisational Platform of the Libertarian Communists offers suggestions for effective forms of anarchist communist organisation. Based on their experiences during the Russian Revolution, the authors re-assert the class struggle basis of anarchism that was...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org


----------



## Sue (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Errico Malatesta, <em>Anarchism and Organisation</em> - Anarchist Communist Group
> 
> 
> Written over a century ago, Malatesta’s arguments for the importance of organisation are as relevant today as ever. However for many in the anarchist movement the idea of ‘organisation’ is a dirty word. Malatesta, by stressing the importance of organisation for anarchists confirms an important...
> ...


No red and green graphics?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> No red and green graphics?


It’s our red and black period.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Errico Malatesta, <em>Anarchism and Organisation</em> - Anarchist Communist Group
> 
> 
> Written over a century ago, Malatesta’s arguments for the importance of organisation are as relevant today as ever. However for many in the anarchist movement the idea of ‘organisation’ is a dirty word. Malatesta, by stressing the importance of organisation for anarchists confirms an important...
> ...


Malatesta: Anarchism and Organisation: Perspectives on Organising - have you created yet another three-titled monster? belboid's gonna proper kick off about this one. Mind you, the kerning on it's pretty decent, so maybe that'll get you unbanned.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Malatesta: Anarchism and Organisation: Perspectives on Organising - have you created yet another three-titled monster? belboid's gonna proper kick off about this one. Mind you, the kerning on it's pretty decent, so maybe that'll get you unbanned.


Editors are a bourgeoise construct.


----------



## belboid (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Malatesta: Anarchism and Organisation: Perspectives on Organising - have you created yet another three-titled monster? belboid's gonna proper kick off about this one. Mind you, the kerning on it's pretty decent, so maybe that'll get you unbanned.


Malatesta is the author, so title & subtitle is perfectly acceptable.  Repeating one of the two key words in the sub is rather superfluous though, it was hardly likely to be perspectives on the state of opera.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 2, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Actually, scratch that, I've just had a torrent of repressed memories - spats, threats of violence, buying the wrong beer...


Paul Mason demanding his taxi fare


----------



## Wilf (Sep 2, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Paul Mason demanding his taxi fare


Well, yes actually (speaking, that is, not wanting travel expenses). 4.45 on the Saturday:




__





						Star and Shadow: Projectile 2008: Anarchist Festival
					






					starandshadow.org.uk


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 2, 2021)

Projectile was great. Best ran anarcho thing I've been to.


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 2, 2021)

LDN Bookfair said:


> Just wanted to say, Rhyddical in their comments here do not represent the Anarchist Bookfair in London collective and it talking in a personal capacity only. In fact, this admin thinks that Rhyddical, while being generally a good comrade, is making a total arse of themselves here. But that's their choice really.
> 
> This is the first and the last time I will be commenting here. *This is also the last time I am bothering to even look at this forum.* Have fun throwing bile at each other and everyone in the vicinity.



I don't believe you.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Had a union branch meeting today where there was a motion proposed, everyone was happy with the demands and general aim, but some members of the committee were unhappy with some parts of the wording and perspective. Cue a lengthy discussion about whether it'd be better to go away, reword the motion so it was acceptable to everyone, and then vote on it at the next meeting, or vote on it today and try to resolve the matter straight away. We eventually decided to have a vote on whether to vote on it today or postpone it, and the majority voted to have a vote. Then we voted on it and the majority voted it down, so it was agreed that the proposers of the motion and their critics would go away, reword the motion so it was acceptable to everyone, and then vote on it at the next meeting. 😎 That's the proper, smoothly efficient, non-anarcho-scene class struggle for you.


this is heaven to me - shouldnt be seen in anyway as contradictory to anarchist practice - the opposite: anarcho-bureaucracy is the prize! So long as all delegates in committee positions are fully recallable, or on a rotating schedule  Also reaching a consensus is preferable to taking things to a vote.  This is genuinely great I think https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/handbookweb.pdf


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Projectile was great. Best ran anarcho thing I've been to.


For me it was probably j18


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Malatesta: Anarchism and Organisation: Perspectives on Organising - have you created yet another three-titled monster? belboid's gonna proper kick off about this one. Mind you, the kerning on it's pretty decent, so maybe that'll get you unbanned.


Librarians take the title and author not from the cover but from the title page within the book #cataloguing101


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Projectile was great. Best ran anarcho thing I've been to.


And nice to remember that the Star and Shadow is still going, which reassures some of my doubts about long-term libertarian infrastructure a bit. (Cue round of "what, you haven't heard about what's happened with the Star and Shadow?")


----------



## LDC (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> And nice to remember that the Star and Shadow is still going, which reassures some of my doubts about long-term libertarian infrastructure a bit. (Cue round of "what, you haven't heard about what's happened with the Star and Shadow?")



I think there's something in the size of town/city, types of groups there, and maybe the amount of people in the 'scene' that does make a difference with fallings out and implosions?

London always seems the epicentre of this stuff, Leeds and Manchester are bad too it seems, and plenty of places like Newcastle and Norwich seem to escape it almost entirely.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think there's something in the size of town/city, types of groups there, and maybe the amount of people in the 'scene' that does make a difference with fallings out and implosions?
> 
> London always seems the epicentre of this stuff, Leeds and Manchester are bad too it seems, and plenty of places like Newcastle and Norwich seem to escape it almost entirely.


There's no requirement to get on in London. Plus anyone who chooses to move there is a freak by definition.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think there's something in the size of town/city, types of groups there, and maybe the amount of people in the 'scene' that does make a difference with fallings out and implosions?
> 
> London always seems the epicentre of this stuff, Leeds and Manchester are bad too it seems, and plenty of places like Newcastle and Norwich seem to escape it almost entirely.


there are prickly characters in the north-east as there are in eg leeds and london


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

I'm left feeling that there is so much that i don't know about the nuances of the UK's anarchist movement, but I don't really have the stamina or time to fully catch up on.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm left feeling that there is so much that i don't know about the nuances of the UK's anarchist movement, but I don't really have the stamina or time to fully catch up on.


Tbf, I think there's people on this thread who've been involved since the split in the First International, or thereabouts, who are still a bit confused about what's going on.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Tbf, I think there's people on this thread who've been involved since the split in the First International, or thereabouts, who are still a bit confused about what's going on.


_Wakes from nap_

Wait what The International split?!


----------



## LDC (Sep 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there are prickly characters in the north-east as there are in eg leeds and london



For sure, I do think there's something about the size of some larger places that makes it easier to be less accountable and to ignore people or move scenes if you have a falling out though. Maybe something to do with people's lack of roots and connections to an area as well makes falling out easier.

Some thing about places with large transient populations as well maybe? Can we blame students for something surely too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> For sure, I do think there's something about the size of some larger places that makes it easier to be less accountable and to ignore people or move scenes if you have a falling out though. Maybe something to do with people's lack of roots and connections to an area as well makes falling out easier.
> 
> Some thing about places with large transient populations as well maybe? Can we blame students for something surely too?


i was thinking of two longstanding anarchists, the one in the north-east and the other in leeds, who - i think it's fair to say - are very marmite


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm left feeling that there is so much that i don't know about the nuances of the UK's anarchist movement, but I don't really have the stamina or time to fully catch up on.


What’s the anarchist scene like in Kent ? Is there one ?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What’s the anarchist scene like in Kent ? Is there one ?


Dunno mate, not lived there since 1979.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i was thinking of two longstanding anarchists, the one in the north-east and the other in leeds, who - i think it's fair to say - are very marmite


Is the Leeds one connected to olden times London bookfair beef from back in the distant 2000s, or am I way wide of the mark there?


----------



## LDC (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is the Leeds one connected to olden times London bookfair beef from back in the distant 2000s, or am I way wide of the mark there?



No idea what you mean, and I live here, although disconnected to much of the 'scene'. There's been plenty of fallings out over the years, the Class War split/collapse/whatever one is memorable (although well before my time in the city), but mostly the drama I know of has revolved around scenes since then (mostly people who moved here to be students and then stayed); within the 'identity politics' stuff for want of a better description, they seem to fall out with each other at the drop of a hat tbh. It looks like proper 'Life of Brian' stuff sometimes looking at somewhat externally (although tbf I admit to some of that stuff in the past. Age... eh, softens you up doesn't it?  )

E2A: Couldn't resist...


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Dunno mate, not lived there since 1979.


Is there one where you are now ?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is there one where you are now ?


I've seen that SolFed are/have been active in Croydon AFAIK, but beyond that, no idea.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No idea what you mean, and I live here, although disconnected to much of the 'scene'. There's been plenty of fallings out over the years, the Class War split/collapse/whatever one is memorable (although well before my time in the city), but mostly the drama I know of has revolved around scenes since then (mostly people who moved here to be students and then stayed); within the 'identity politics' stuff for want of a better description, they seem to fall out with each other at the drop of a hat tbh. It looks like proper 'Life of Brian' stuff sometimes looking at externally.


there was an anarchist from Leeds who used to post on here many moons ago. When I met him at drinks thing I explained that there were some anarchists who used to live in the flat above mine in Acton and it turned out that he knew them in Leeds. Small world.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No idea what you mean, and I live here, although disconnected to much of the 'scene'. There's been plenty of fallings out over the years, the Class War split/collapse/whatever one is memorable (although well before my time in the city), but mostly the drama I know of has revolved around scenes since then (mostly people who moved here to be students and then stayed); within the 'identity politics' stuff for want of a better description, they seem to fall out with each other at the drop of a hat tbh. It looks like proper 'Life of Brian' stuff sometimes looking at externally.


Thinking about it, are Chumbawamba actually the best example of a longstanding, stable UK anarchist project that managed to last for a considerable period of time without splintering into fractions that hate each other?  🤔 Or is this another point I'm about to be disappointed on?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> there was an anarchist from Leeds who used to post on here many moons ago. When I met him at drinks thing I explained that there were some anarchists who used to live in the flat above mine in Acton and it turned out that he knew them in Leeds. Small world.


I feel like it should be possible to rework this post as a limerick.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I've seen that SolFed are/have been active in Croydon AFAIK, but beyond that, no idea.


Fwiw, AngryWorkers have a local group who sound decent to me:




__





						Local groups – Croydon - Angry Workers
					

Here is a summary of some local mapping of Croydon we've done so far: Geographically, Croydon is located on the outskirts of London, formerly as the business and administrative hub of Surrey, but now undoubtedly a large suburb of Greater London. The area is a major transport hub, with West...




					www.angryworkers.org
				











						Croydon Kick Off
					






					croydonkickoff.wordpress.com
				




Unless they've had an acrimonious split and dissolved in the last few months, I suppose.


----------



## LDC (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fwiw, AngryWorkers have a local group who sound decent to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No acrimonious split, but not so active as they were. Still about though in a somewhat reduced format.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is the Leeds one connected to olden times London bookfair beef from back in the distant 2000s, or am I way wide of the mark there?


the former


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fwiw, AngryWorkers have a local group who sound decent to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are very decent people. I hold them in some regard.


----------



## LDC (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I feel like it should be possible to rework this post as a limerick.



There was an old anarchist from Leeds.
Who griped and moaned as he peed.
"My piles make me stumble.
And my eyes make me fumble."
But it could be much worse,
At least I'm not in that there London."

_Last 2 lines need some work, 7/10 for effort._


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about it, are Chumbawamba actually the best example of a longstanding, stable UK anarchist project that managed to last for a considerable period of time without splintering into fractions that hate each other?  🤔 Or is this another point I'm about to be disappointed on?


Yes.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about it, are Chumbawamba actually the best example of a longstanding, stable UK anarchist project that managed to last for a considerable period of time without splintering into fractions that hate each other?  🤔 Or is this another point I'm about to be disappointed on?


Last I heard Wamba was no longer on speaking terms with Chumba. That may just be a rumour.


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2021)

Could be worse. Have you seen the state of the Green Party's leadership election?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Could be worse. Have you seen the state of the Green Party's leadership election?


On a fairly regular basis, I read something and think "I am so happy I have no idea what this is referring to", and right now is one of those times. (I do also fairly regularly think "Why the fuck do I know this, what purpose is served by this taking up space in my brain?", me being able to guess which Leedser Pickman's was vaguing earlier was one of those.)


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Could be worse. Have you seen the state of the Green Party's leadership election?


That looks all remarkably sedate from what I see on the news/sm


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2021)

belboid said:


> That looks all remarkably sedate from what I see on the news/sm


It certainly lacks the, er, 'energy' of an Anarchist spat, but is no less shit for it.


----------



## A380 (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about it, are Chumbawamba actually the best example of a longstanding, stable UK anarchist project that managed to last for a considerable period of time ....


I heard they got knocked down.

But they  got up again.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> It certainly lacks the, er, 'energy' of an Anarchist spat, but is no less shit for it.


This is now making me imagine Natalie Bennett squaring up to some confused punter at whatever the Green Party equivalent of an Oi Polloi gig is: _Here, you knock about with that Brighton Caroline, don't you? You can tell her from me that I know it was her who wrote that fucking indymedia comment calling me a grass!_


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This is now making me imagine Natalie Bennett squaring up to some confused punter at whatever the Green Party equivalent of an Oi Polloi gig is: _Here, you knock about with that Brighton Caroline, don't you? You can tell her from me that I know it was her who wrote that fucking indymedia comment calling me a grass!_



More likely someone will be pointedly getting served Waitrose 'Everyday Essentials' Hummous at the next Branch dinner party rather than usual Duchy Organics.


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> More likely someone will be pointedly getting served Waitrose 'Everyday Essentials' Hummous at the next Branch dinner party rather than usual Duchy Organics.


Oooh, somebody knows a lot about Waitrose brands!


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Oooh, somebody knows a lot about Waitrose brands!


What can I say? It's the only place near me where I can get both 'nduja and Merchant Gourmet quinoa.


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2021)

No need for a  maomao. It's quite convenient really, and if I go on a Saturday the artisan bakers and cheesemongers will be at the Farmer's Market outside. So, two birds one stone and all that.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> What can I say? It's the only place near me where I can get both 'nduja and Merchant Gourmet quinoa.


I mean it's basically a workers' co-op so 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Wilf (Sep 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> There was an old anarchist from Leeds.
> Who griped and moaned as he peed.
> "My piles make me stumble.
> And my eyes make me fumble."
> ...


There was a young anarchist called Paul
Who just wanted to book a stall
He sent them many a long missive
Only to be shunned by the collective
In the form of that 'arse' Rhyddi-cal


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> What can I say? It's the only place near me where I can get both 'nduja and Merchant Gourmet quinoa.


Aren't the Merchant Gourmets the ones who built that statue in Bristol? I had no idea they did quinoa as well.

Anyway, hopefully the thread taking this unexpected turn means that LDN Bookfair, SE22 and any other new posters will be more likely to stick around, now that they can see this place isn't just about throwing bile at each other, but also exchanging quinoa and hummus sourcing tips. Would be keen to hear their opinions on whether any other brand can live up to the standards of the Duchy Organics.


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 2, 2021)

Have we discussed sausages yet?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Have we discussed sausages yet?


Maybe get a stall.... at a farmer's market.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Have we discussed sausages yet?


Dodgy stuff in those square ones...but I'm not at liberty to say exactly what because..... _I'm not addressing certain things for certain reasons._


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Have we discussed sausages yet?


What the fuck do you think 'nduja is?!?! 

Honestly, this place....


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Maybe get a stall.... at a farmer's market.


Split between vegan and meat-eating factions incoming in 3, 2, 1...


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Split between vegan and meat-eating factions incoming in 3, 2, 1...


You vegetarian exclusionary bigot.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

No pop-up food stall for you this year!


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Have we discussed sausages yet?


4 sausages and a cup of bovril in a hot tub


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> 4 sausages and a cup of bovril in a hot tub


Splodgeness🅐bounds


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about it, are Chumbawamba actually the best example of a longstanding, stable UK anarchist project that managed to last for a considerable period of time without splintering into fractions that hate each other?  🤔 Or is this another point I'm about to be disappointed on?


No they’re not: I have not forgotten their covering up for Searchlight/Tony white/Leeds AFA at an anarchist book fair…


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about it, are Chumbawamba actually the best example of a longstanding, stable UK anarchist project that managed to last for a considerable period of time without splintering into fractions that hate each other?  🤔 Or is this another point I'm about to be disappointed on?


My understanding is that only one of the Chumbawamba crew is not a Labourite and has stayed true to their anarchist principles.

And apparently this has been the case for a while. But I am by no means any kind of know-all about the band.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Aren't the Merchant Gourmets the ones who built that statue in Bristol? I had no idea they did quinoa as well.
> 
> Anyway, hopefully the thread taking this unexpected turn means that LDN Bookfair, SE22 and any other new posters will be more likely to stick around, now that they can see this place isn't just about throwing bile at each other, but also exchanging quinoa and hummus sourcing tips. Would be keen to hear their opinions on whether any other brand can live up to the standards of the Duchy Organics.


Yeh but we'll be able to tell much by which way they pass the duchy organics round the table


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2021)

Teen Vogue really need a stall








						Teen Vogue: Fashion, Beauty, Entertainment News for Teens
					

The latest on fashion, beauty, celebrity style, entertainment, teen issues, videos and more from TeenVogue magazine on TeenVogue.com. Fashion starts here.




					www.teenvogue.com


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Teen Vogue really need a stall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's Kim Kelly 😎🥷👍

She's got a book coming out next year:


----------



## nogojones (Sep 3, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> But I am by no means any kind of know-all about the band.


I'm unfortunate enough to have heard a couple of their songs, and that's more than enough knowledge for me. I genuinely think I'd enjoy the Cranberries more.


----------



## andysays (Sep 3, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I'm unfortunate enough to have heard a couple of their songs, and that's more than enough knowledge for me. I genuinely think I'd enjoy the Cranberries more.


Maybe you should start a thread...


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 3, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I'm unfortunate enough to have heard a couple of their songs, and that's more than enough knowledge for me. I genuinely think I'd enjoy the Cranberries more.


I suppose that makes their longevity and stability all the more impressive - not just long-term commitment to a project, but sticking with it all those years while also being required to listen to Chumbawamba songs all the time. True dedication.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I suppose that makes their longevity and stability all the more impressive - not just long-term commitment to a project, but sticking with it all those years while also being required to listen to Chumbawamba songs all the time. True dedication.


I really need to show more positivity in my life. Instead of complaining about the two chumumba songs I've heard, I should focus on the benefits of not hearing any of their other output.


----------



## chilango (Sep 3, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I really need to show more positivity in my life. Instead of complaining abot the two chumumba songs I've heard, I should focus on the benefits of not hearing any of their other output.


Yep.

When you get knocked down you need to get up again.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I'm unfortunate enough to have heard a couple of their songs, and that's more than enough knowledge for me. I genuinely think I'd enjoy the Cranberries more.


i remember being in finsbury park once with friends and there was some kind of festival going on in the park within earshot which we were ignoring
floating on the air at one point was a repeated refrain I AM A TIMEBOMB, A TICKY TICKY TIMEBOMB - I AM A TIMEBOMB, A TICKY TICKY TIMEBOMB - it was really annoying - the ticky ticky bit especially annoyed me for  some reason and it stuck in my head for years ... a long time later with the advent of the internet i googled it and turns out it was chumbawumba and theres a video for it too
crap story but true


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i remember being in finsbury park once with friends and there was some kind of festival going on in the park within earshot which we were ignoring
> floating on the air at one point was a repeated refrain I AM A TIMEBOMB, A TICKY TICKY TIMEBOMB - I AM A TIMEBOMB, A TICKY TICKY TIMEBOMB - it was really annoying - the ticky ticky bit especially annoyed me for  some reason and it stuck in my head for years ... a long time later with the advent of the internet i googled it and turns out it was chumbawumba and theres a video for it too
> crap story but true


was it sung to the tune of i'm a little teapot?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yep.
> 
> When you get knocked down you need to get up again.


yeh before the boots go in - hard


----------



## nogojones (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i remember being in finsbury park once with friends and there was some kind of festival going on in the park within earshot which we were ignoring
> floating on the air at one point was a repeated refrain I AM A TIMEBOMB, A TICKY TICKY TIMEBOMB - I AM A TIMEBOMB, A TICKY TICKY TIMEBOMB - it was really annoying - the ticky ticky bit especially annoyed me for  some reason and it stuck in my head for years ... a long time later with the advent of the internet i googled it and turns out it was chumbawumba and theres a video for it too
> crap story but true


See, my new found positivity is working already.

I got no idea what this song is and I'm truly joyful in my ignorance.


----------



## maomao (Sep 3, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I got no idea what this song is and I'm truly joyful in my ignorance.


You lucky lucky bastard. 

Everyone on here loved them twenty years ago.


----------



## belboid (Sep 3, 2021)

Some great albums and Alice Nutter has written some pretty decent dramas since their demise too


----------



## nogojones (Sep 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> Some great albums


I sometimes struggle to grasp sarcasm when it's delivered this dry


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 3, 2021)

I was never a massive Chumbawamba fan but did see them a few times in London. Their shows immediately preceding the big hits like _Tubthumping_ were great - a good run of danceable pop tunes with decent lyrics. They'd grown beyond the ultra preachy shrieking of the early albums. If people don't like danceable pop music or hate the way they did it, that is obviously OK. I do wonder though if the reaction against them is partly the cringe about when we are all teenage shouty anarchists ourselves.

During the lockdown I've checked out their post- top 40 albums and many of those are also great - understated folk and acoustic numbers. Boff Whalley's project The Commoners Choir is a logical step on from that - largely acaepella choral and folksy songs with a large group of singers, tours of Northern libraries and community centres, that sort of stuff. Boff's autobiography _Footnote_ is good.

I happened across Dunstan's band Interrobang‽ without knowing who they were. It was a slot at a small venue supporting The Ex. Really tight songs about ageing, being a cliche and stuff, interesting lyrics. A bit like Wire. Matching brown suits. They were great. I think Dunstan is also working on a documentary about the band and his mixed feelings about his time with them / their success.


----------



## deeyo (Sep 3, 2021)

i saw them at the class war international conference and thought they were good. (blaggers were better, though). 
think they played the night i volunteered at the door and the fash tried to attack, though i wasn't involved in the little that actually happened, i might have had a bit to much adrenaline still pumping to really appreciate the concert.. 

got a couple of records, don't listen to them much, but theres a couple of songs i still like.

listening to the commoners choir on spotify now Fozzie Bear  - thanks for the tip - will check out interrowhatever next.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

deeyo said:


> i saw them at the class war international conference and thought they were good. (blaggers were better, though).
> think they played the night i volunteered at the door and the fash tried to attack, though i wasn't involved in the little that actually happened, i might have had a bit to much adrenaline still pumping to really appreciate the concert..
> 
> got a couple of records, don't listen to them much, but theres a couple of songs i still like.
> ...


Used to have a tape of that chambas gig and there was a bit on there where they say about fash in the area


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 3, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I was never a massive Chumbawamba fan but did see them a few times in London. Their shows immediately preceding the big hits like _Tubthumping_ were great - a good run of danceable pop tunes with decent lyrics. They'd grown beyond the ultra preachy shrieking of the early albums. If people don't like danceable pop music or hate the way they did it, that is obviously OK. I do wonder though if the reaction against them is partly the cringe about when we are all teenage shouty anarchists ourselves.
> 
> During the lockdown I've checked out their post- top 40 albums and many of those are also great - understated folk and acoustic numbers. Boff Whalley's project The Commoners Choir is a logical step on from that - largely acaepella choral and folksy songs with a large group of singers, tours of Northern libraries and community centres, that sort of stuff. Boff's autobiography _Footnote_ is good.
> 
> I happened across Dunstan's band Interrobang‽ without knowing who they were. It was a slot at a small venue supporting The Ex. Really tight songs about ageing, being a cliche and stuff, interesting lyrics. A bit like Wire. Matching brown suits. They were great. I think Dunstan is also working on a documentary about the band and his mixed feelings about his time with them / their success.


I really like their English Rebel songs. Great stuff.


----------



## deeyo (Sep 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Used to have a tape of that chambas gig and there was a bit on there where they say about fash in the area


... if you ever find it, please post it somewhere i can find it & let me know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

deeyo said:


> ... if you ever find it, please post it somewhere i can find it & let me know.


Will do


----------



## LDC (Sep 3, 2021)

So the offer from the Angry Workers to share their stall with the ACG has been rejected by the Bookfair organisers.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 3, 2021)

Any reasons given?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2021)

Did I read correctly Rebel City have a stall? Isn't that ACG?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2021)

They don’t know me, but they seem to be happy to decide what I secretly believe inside, despite my words and actions.

It’s the internet way. Lots on urban like as you know.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Did I read correctly Rebel City have a stall? Isn't that ACG?


Not wholly. Although some of the London Group are involved.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 3, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> So the offer from the Angry Workers to share their stall with the ACG has been rejected by the Bookfair organisers.


I'm now imagining the Angry Workers and/or Rebel City stalls as being like them ice cream vans/chippies/tape shops that were rumoured, with varying degrees of plausibility, to sell drugs if you went up and asked with the right codewords. "Here, you got any Jackdaws?" "WHAT, WHO TOLD YOU THAT?"

Also, was there any grounds given for the rejection, or have the Angry Workers been put under a D-notice regarding the contents of that email as well?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2021)

So see a few of you in a nearby pub? I’m the really tall, really thin bloke.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 3, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Any reasons given?


There's much more fun to be had by not giving a reason


----------



## co-op (Sep 3, 2021)

This thread is fucking hilarious. Great job everyone.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> s. "Here, you got any Jackdaws?" "WHAT, WHO TOLD YOU THAT?"


Whisper it...stormy petrels, £2... You didn't hear it from me


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 3, 2021)

We don’t sell any of these ice creams. We do Ripper Tours.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 3, 2021)

Contraband literature of the anarchist communists. Big sales pitch.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 3, 2021)

_...well OK, I never much liked flogging pamphlets there anyway..._


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 3, 2021)

Now that we’ve found out about PDFs there’s no stopping us. We feel so empowered.


----------



## Sue (Sep 3, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Contraband literature of the anarchist communists. Big sales pitch.


Samizdat .


----------



## Wilf (Sep 3, 2021)

I'm now expecting a third member of the collective to turn up and denounce the first two and their paltry attempts at not answering why a stall hasn't been granted, only to reiterate their own non answer. It will be called _Reasons to Be Uncheerful, Part 3._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm now imagining the Angry Workers and/or Rebel City stalls as being like them ice cream vans/chippies/tape shops that were rumoured, with varying degrees of plausibility, to sell drugs if you went up and asked with the right codewords. "Here, you got any Jackdaws?" "WHAT, WHO TOLD YOU THAT?"


Rhyddical, SE22 and LDN Bookfair conduct a non-hierarchical table patrol on the floor


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 3, 2021)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 286618


Run out of Flakes again?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 3, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Run out of Flakes again?


We don’t sell ice cream. That would be confusing.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> We don’t sell ice cream. That would be confusing.


No, true anarchist communists would distribute it for free


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

Sue said:


> Samizdat .


Gesundheit


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Now that we’ve found out about PDFs there’s no stopping us. We feel so empowered.


Looking forward to your workshop in which you try to figure out where on your radiogram to slot in an MP3


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 3, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Looking forward to your workshop in which you try to figure out where on your radiogram to slot in an MP3


MP3. Ok boomer.


----------



## xenon (Sep 3, 2021)

So what is the costume for this convention, this little get together? I mean it does just seem like a massive fantasy con. But with no clear description on favourite series dress codes or whatever. More embarrassing really that the average fantasy con.
I actually mean this in a nice way, genuinely. But it does seem like a soirée for inviting the same old people to talk about stuff that they  can fall out about. Although I’m tempted to join the streaming thing. I don’t do paper books so not going to the book shop, fair, of any kind  But nothing wrong with Book fairs.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 3, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> MP3. Ok boomer.


Is a younger relative passing you cue cards with comebacks written on them?


----------



## xenon (Sep 4, 2021)

Top tip if you are producing PDFs don’t just take photos of written stuff actually type the fuckers out and convert them


----------



## Wilf (Sep 4, 2021)

Have the ACG thought of building bridges, perhaps sending a gift along to Conway Hall for the bookfair collective? Something picking out a couple of strains in contemporary anarchism?  Maybe something made out of natural materials for the greens, perhaps an animal theme for Sabs and Animal Rights lot? Perhaps _a large wooden horse_?


----------



## xenon (Sep 4, 2021)

It’s like Dungeons & Dragons isn’t it, come on admit it. Left splinter groups and all that. They never achieve anything but get to hang around with other nerds and discuss the minutiae of interminable irrelevant nonsense. At least Dungeons & Dragons is entertaining and a little sociably more acceptable.


----------



## xenon (Sep 4, 2021)

I just wanna chuck a brick through a window you know. I’m being a bit tongue in cheek but also half serious.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 4, 2021)

xenon said:


> It’s like Dungeons & Dragons isn’t it, come on admit it. Left splinter groups and all that. They never achieve anything but get to hang around with other nerds and discuss the minutiae of interminable irrelevant nonsense. At least Dungeons & Dragons is entertaining and a little sociably more acceptable.


To be fair, whilst anarchism has it's moments, I don't think this whole pantomine has much to do with anarchism. It's more about how debates and identities  have become trapped within the circuits of identity politics, with all it's red lines and denunciations.  I don't kid myself that excluding the ACG in this bizarre fashion will have much impact on the already piss poor state of working class politics, but it doesn't say anything good about those 'in charge'.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 4, 2021)

Who is going then? I hear of a few things happening outside too.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who is going then? I hear of a few things happening outside too.


With all the kerfuffle on this thread, I confess I've forgotten where and when the actual Bookfair is taking place.

Can anyone remind me?


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 4, 2021)

Bradford 1-in-12 Club


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> With all the kerfuffle on this thread, I confess I've forgotten where and when the actual Bookfair is taking place.
> 
> Can anyone remind me?


Conway hall for auld times sake


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

xenon said:


> It’s like Dungeons & Dragons isn’t it, come on admit it. Left splinter groups and all that. They never achieve anything but get to hang around with other nerds and discuss the minutiae of interminable irrelevant nonsense. At least Dungeons & Dragons is entertaining and a little sociably more acceptable.





Wilf said:


> To be fair, whilst anarchism has it's moments, I don't think this whole pantomine has much to do with anarchism. It's more about how debates and identities  have become trapped within the circuits of identity politics, with all it's red lines and denunciations.  I don't kid myself that excluding the ACG in this bizarre fashion will have much impact on the already piss poor state of working class politics, but it doesn't say anything good about those 'in charge'.


I dont think its about "identities" - i gather its basically about responses to trans rights. And/or pamphlet production levels.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Conway hall for auld times sake


And when?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 4, 2021)

Saturday next.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> With all the kerfuffle on this thread, I confess I've forgotten where and when the actual Bookfair is taking place.
> 
> Can anyone remind me?


This is an anarchist bookfair, the most divisive event in the movement's calendar. In all the excitement I've forgotten if the organisers have five groups on their banned list or if it's six.

But I don't see how to work in 'do you feel lucky, punk?'


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 4, 2021)

I’ll probably make a brief appearance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I’ll probably make a brief appearance.


Yeh me too.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think its about "identities" - i gather its basically about responses to trans rights. And/or pamphlet production levels.


I'm something of an outsider to this, so only have an outsider's perspective.

However, it looks to me that although the ostensible issue is trans rights and responses to them, there are also a number of other things going on slightly below the surface, for which supposed differences over trans rights has become something of a fig leaf.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I’ll probably make a brief appearance.





Pickman's model said:


> Yeh me too.


The opportunity to meet two of Urban's most illustrious posters seems like a good excuse for me to come too then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> The opportunity to meet two of Urban's most illustrious posters seems like a good excuse for me to come too then.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh me too.


Don't think I'm yet ready for the transport involved and spending time indoors with lots of folk.


----------



## klang (Sep 4, 2021)

will there be clowns? thinking of bringing the toddler.....


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 4, 2021)

I think I'll be in Wigan that day, but I might bring a sound system into a chippy and then kick off when the staff ask me to turn it off as a gesture of solidarity with you all.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 4, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 286618


Nice. Where can I buy this? Genuinely interested.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 4, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Nice. Where can I buy this? Genuinely interested.


In Scotland you can get it in Tesco’s.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 4, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> In Scotland you can get it in Tesco’s.


Another reason to live in Scotland


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

klang said:


> will there be clowns? thinking of bringing the toddler.....


There will be clowns


----------



## chilango (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There will be clowns


----------



## LDC (Sep 4, 2021)

Yeah, 'doxxing' has been mentioned along with transphobia, again with no specific incident or behaviour to illustrate either. On the subject of doxxing* there's been nothing concrete that I've seen, and unless the ACG agreed to do it as a group then I'm baffled as to how a whole organisation can be banned for that?

*I'm afraid that I'm a bit cynical with this. I thought doxxing was purposefully spreading someone's personal info across the internet to try and harm them. But the way I've seen it used much more commonly is when someone mentions a name in passing in a comment (especially if it's their pre-transitioning name) or anything like that, rather than what I thought it was (purposefully, for harm, etc.). Basically does seem to be used as a power game to exclude and shut people up sometimes tbh, or as a playground 'no comebacks' kind of thing that ends any further discussion or questioning.

Also on the subject of all this I thought one of the things we tried to do was assume people could make mistakes (or even do bad things on purpose) but they should generally be given the chance to recognize, acknowledge, and change their shit behaviour/attitudes, otherwise we're a bit fucked as a society and we're just aping the worst of the essentialist right wing where people are simply good/bad, perfect/doomed, comrades/enemies, etc. So allowing the chance for either some accountability process, mediation, or personal/group reflection on what's happened, etc. to try and sort this stuff out.

But surely as a first step those things need the person/people involved actually knowing what they've done is wrong/unacceptable. Not giving any specifics and explaining why a person or a group is banned from somewhere doesn't seem to be done in any helpful or progressive way, and smacks more of petty power play, and I'm afraid makes me suspect there isn't anything concrete that a reasonable person would think means you can ban a whole organisation from the bookfair.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 4, 2021)

One small point to make: the alleged doxxing took place _after_ we’d been ghosted.  3 Emails and a web form had already been ignored by the time of the alleged doxxing. (Which is by an anonymous Twitter account and not known to us. And on inspection it does not give away any details not already in the public domain, and does not identify a real life address.  It alleges one online account is by another online account). 

The “doxxing” is not a reason we were ignored. It is a retro fitted rationalisation.

I had no authority to make this statement, but I don’t see why the other side gets to make all the accusations with no come back.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, 'doxxing' has been mentioned along with transphobia, again with no specific incident or behaviour to illustrate either. On the subject of doxxing* there's been nothing concrete that I've seen, and unless the ACG agreed to do it as a group then I'm baffled as to how a whole organisation can be banned for that?
> 
> *I'm afraid that I'm a bit cynical with this. I thought doxxing was purposefully spreading someone's personal info across the internet to try and harm them. But the way I've seen it used much more commonly is when someone mentions a name in passing in a comment (especially if it's their pre-transitioning name) or anything like that, rather than what I thought it was (purposefully, for harm, etc.). Basically does seem to be used as a power game to exclude and shut people up sometimes tbh, or as a playground 'no comebacks' kind of thing that ends any further discussion or questioning.
> 
> ...


Yep, top-down secrecy and evasiveness are hardly prefigurative attributes of the political economy outcome that anarchists desire.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> *I'm afraid that I'm a bit cynical with this. *I thought doxxing was purposefully spreading *someone's personal info across the internet to try and harm them. But the way I've seen it used much more commonly is when someone mentions a name in passing in a comment (especially if it's their pre-transitioning name) or anything like that, rather than what I thought it was (purposefully, for harm, etc.). Basically does seem to be used as a power game to exclude and shut people up sometimes tbh, or as a playground 'no comebacks' kind of thing that ends any further discussion or questioning.



Dog whistle is used in a similar way - it's supposed, I thought, to be a conscious purposeful coded way of communicating to an audience who also understands the code, but actually seems to include any comment that sounds like it might be a dog whistle and to suggest that it might not be a dog whistle is also a dog whistle.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Dog whistle is used in a similar way - it's supposed, I thought, to be a conscious purposeful coded way of communicating to an audience who also understands the code, but actually seems to include any comment that sounds like it might be a dog whistle and to suggest that it might not be a dog whistle is also a dog whistle.


It seems to mean in this instance: “something that isn’t objectionable but with which we happen to disagree”.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 4, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Another reason to live in Scotland


That, and the fact that it's as far away from London as you can get without leaving this island.


Pickman's model said:


> There will be clowns


"...but doctor, _I am_ the great organiser Pagliacci!"


danny la rouge said:


> One small point to make: the alleged doxxing took place _after_ we’d been ghosted.  3 Emails and a web form had already been ignored by the time of the alleged doxxing. (Which is by an anonymous Twitter account and not known to us. And on inspection it does not give away any details not already in the public domain, and does not identify a real life address.  It alleges one online account is by another online account).


In the interest of strict accuracy, I'd add that as I understand it, it also included a name, but it was a name that comes up as the first result if you search for one of those online accounts, and has been used to sign articles in the past, so again nothing that wasn't already in the public domain.


Red Cat said:


> Dog whistle is used in a similar way - it's supposed, I thought, to be a conscious purposeful coded way of communicating to an audience who also understands the code, but actually seems to include any comment that sounds like it might be a dog whistle and to suggest that it might not be a dog whistle is also a dog whistle.


That is a genuinely tricky one, imo - it certainly is the case that bigots often tend to deliberately communicate using innocent-sounding language, so anyone who spends a lot of time paying attention to said bigots will end up bristling at any mention of certain words or phrases, and that's a legit reaction. But at the same time obviously you can't really go "ah, you're using innocent-sounding language, so you must be a bigot!"


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 4, 2021)

I won't be at the London Bookfair, but depending on the weather will be meeting up with people after at a green space a bit south of there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> I won't be at the London Bookfair, but depending on the weather will be meeting up with people after at a green space a bit south of there.


Not a proper bookfair without you there


----------



## nogojones (Sep 4, 2021)

chilango said:


>


Nice to see Jedward are changing up the hairdo's a bit


----------



## Wilf (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think its about "identities" - *i gather its basically about responses to trans rights. *And/or pamphlet production levels.


Well, essentially, that's what I meant. It does though have a feel of that wider politics. It's a kind of deplatforming, but an awkward one.  They can't say you are banned because of trans rights issues because that's absurd and doesn't stand up to scrutiny, thus the preposterous 'reasons... we're not telling you...' on this thread.  I'd have had a tad more respect for the organisers if they'd actually come out an said why they banned the ACG stall, though it would have still been a bad decision for the movement.  It would at least have met the most requirements of organising an event.


----------



## LDC (Sep 4, 2021)

*Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....*

The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (_...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em_) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.

It was _the_ big public event that people gravitated towards (from all over the world too, there was always loads of international comrades there); its history, being in London, being brilliantly organised and well advertised all helped make it this, as well as its (mostly) open-ness and broad scope of what was there. It sucked it many a burgeoning young anarchist as it was something they knew that was going on and they could relatively easily go to, especially people from small towns and villages where there was no visible anarchist presence.

So it was very important in my opinion, and the groups, people and workshops/talks there informed what the movement looked like to people, what anarchism is about, and so what groups and projects people then go on to be involved with. I think it had a big impact, even if that was sometimes not easy to see. It was always pretty broad brush in who and what attended, and I think that was also very important, reflective of what anarchism (and even anarchy) looks or might look like - for good and bad, for sensible and mad.

It seems to be heading towards a more narrow definition of what this type of politics is now, and despite the insistence of some (on here and elsewhere) that's it's still challenging, revolutionary, and potentially transformative, that's not the impression it gives out, both from the attitude of the organisers and the stalls and workshops there. It does seem to be reflective of the times and cultural and political shifts we've talked about at length on here for sure, and longer term to me this direction looks like it will increasingly relegate anarchism and anarchist attitudes and activity into just a weird sub-cultural offshoot of left wing progressive politics that's just more militant in its moralistic and judgemental positions, and more about personal stuff than anything wider, even if it does pay some kind of vague lip service to its history.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> *Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....*
> 
> The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (_...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em_) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
> 
> ...


TL;dr? Read it anyway


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> *Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....*
> 
> The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (_...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em_) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
> 
> ...


Correct.  I’ve never been and so have no historical affection for it.  I personally wouldn’t go.  I personally don’t think the ACG should go or apply for stalls.

However, this spat does need cleared up because people keep smearing us as transphobes and it’s got to stop.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> *Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....*
> 
> The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (_...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em_) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
> 
> ...


we need to ask the opinion of another 17 year old


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 4, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> That, and the fact that it's as far away from London as you can get without leaving this island.
> 
> "...but doctor, _I am_ the great organiser Pagliacci!"
> 
> ...



I guess that's the thing, some people pay a lot of attention to these communications and have good reason to. I don't feel that I do, so I limit my exposure to social media as I think it fucks with your head.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Also on the subject of all this I thought one of the things we tried to do was assume people could make mistakes (or even do bad things on purpose) but they should generally be given the chance to recognize, acknowledge, and change their shit behaviour/attitudes, otherwise we're a bit fucked as a society and we're just aping the worst of the essentialist right wing where people are simply good/bad, perfect/doomed, comrades/enemies, etc. So allowing the chance for either some accountability process, mediation, or personal/group reflection on what's happened, etc. to try and sort this stuff out.
> 
> But surely as a first step those things need the person/people involved actually knowing what they've done is wrong/unacceptable. Not giving any specifics and explaining why a person or a group is banned from somewhere doesn't seem to be done in any helpful or progressive way, and smacks more of petty power play, and I'm afraid makes me suspect there isn't anything concrete that a reasonable person would think means you can ban a whole organisation from the bookfair.


That makes the point I was going to make, but does it better.  I'm guessing - and that's all we can do with the complete lack of engagement - is that 'the ACG supported X who is transphobic' is floating around as an off the peg (inaccurate) accusation.  There might be other things the organisers have a beef about so it's sometimes a background issue, sometimes in the foreground, but it's always available as a self justification if you want to do something like banning them.  And it's that kind of categoric, shutters come down, thinking that the movement doesn't need.  The refusal to engage is or even tell the ACG they have been banned is preposterous, but is only a side effect of this politics of immaturity.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 4, 2021)

I went to the last three book fairs in London. I found it really impressive, just the sort of event that could motivate uncommitted lefties towards an anarchist or anarchistic position. Then all that trans controversy blew up, with all the resulting bitterness and accusations. I still firmly believe that the anarchist movement should be able to accommodate a range of views on the trans issue. Slagging off those who do not accept the new gender ideology, labelling anyone who disagrees with any of it as transphobic or worse, no-platforming gender-critical feminists: all that does is build barriers to wider understanding and entrenches division. It's happening all over the left. Not good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I went to the last three book fairs in London. I found it really impressive, just the sort of event that could motivate uncommitted lefties towards an anarchist or anarchistic position. Then all that trans controversy blew up, with all the resulting bitterness and accusations. I still firmly believe that the anarchist movement should be able to accommodate a range of views on the trans issue. Slagging off those who do not accept the new gender ideology, labelling anyone who disagrees with any of it as transphobic or worse, no-platforming gender-critical feminists: all that does is build barriers to wider understanding and entrenches division. It's happening all over the left. Not good.


How Theresa may must account this one of her great successes


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 4, 2021)

Wilf said:


> the movement


It’s perfectly clear that (whoever these people are) they don’t feel we are part of the same movement as them.  And given the evidence, I don’t think that should bother us. We probably aren’t.

But if they can just get on with whatever it is they do without spreading lies about us that would be optimal.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> *Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....*
> 
> The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (_...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em_) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
> 
> ...


Yep to all of that.  It was great in terms of overcoming isolation if you were from somewhere with not much of an anarchist presence as you say and you just felt part of something significant.  I've known several instances of people who went on to become staunch activists having their first meeting with people from the same town at the bookfair. Always a good piss up and chance to meet people but genuinely important in terms of getting stuff done. Lots of campaigns and groups were launched at the bookfair or made connections with other groups. Not all of them thrived but many did.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> *Warning: self indulgent middle aged (ex?) anarchist post....*
> 
> The London Bookfair has been a massive thing for me in the last 30 years. I've rarely missed a year (and usually only if out of the country) and it was always an exciting, inspiring, and fun thing to go to. I started going when I was 17, and finding and meeting other anarchists (_...anarchists sarge, thousands of 'em_) and all their groups (and staunchly anti-organisational non-groups) was brilliant, and sparked and fueled many a friendship.
> 
> ...


I agree with you.  By contrast, I knew nothing about anarchism at 17 and have only developed a depth of interest and understanding over the last five to ten years.  I won’t go into all the reasons why I think the political philosophy underlying anarchism is good, but the bit that has increasingly concerned me about it is how easily any loss or deemphasisation of sociality from anarchism has the potential to feed a spiral of atomised, individualised psychological beliefs that can easily cross over with its mirror image alt-right libertarianism.  It seems to me that the prevailing political philosophy of the day — that of individuals as containing a personal, context-free and self-generated identity that is persistent and coherent across multiple contexts — has infected the groups that are running this book fair, prompting exactly this spiral of individuated, atomised approaches to politics.  The “personal stuff” you mention, in other words.


----------



## LDC (Sep 4, 2021)

Yeah, some of that has played out already with some of the more extreme insurrectionary stuff, in some places it's clearly tipped into dodgy territory (the ITS stuff in Mexico for example). Think hitmouse posted some of that here or in another thread. It's also shown up as some people who've stumbled into the anti-lockdown stuff, here for example dialectical delinquents » Covid1984


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> we need to ask the opinion of another 17 year old


And preferably also a 77-year-old who'd been going for 30 years at the time of LDC's first bookfair, round the sample out a bit.


kabbes said:


> I agree with you.  By contrast, I knew nothing about anarchism at 17 and have only developed a depth of interesting and understanding over the last five to ten years.  I won’t go into all the reasons why I think the political philosophy underlying anarchism is good, but the bit that has increasingly concerned me about it is how easily any loss or deemphasisation of sociality from anarchism has the potential to feed a spiral of atomised, individualised psychological beliefs that can easily cross over with its mirror image alt-right libertarianism.  It seems to me that the prevailing political philosophy of the day — that of individuals as containing a personal, context-free and self-generated identity that is persistent and coherent across multiple contexts — has infected the groups that are running this book fair, prompting exactly this spiral of individuated, atomised approaches to politics.  The “personal stuff” you mention, in other words.


I suppose that's one of the reasons why it's important to understand anarchism's origins in the 19th-century socialist movement. Obviously there's been a lot of developments since the time of the Old Beardies that should be taken into consideration, any functional attempt to achieve those ideals now will not look the same as it did then, but I think once you've got the connections to Haymarket, the Paris Commune and all the rest of it, it's a lot harder to lose or deemphasise that sociality. Although Stirnerites would probably disagree, I suppose.

Also interesting to think about this stuff in terms of historical context - like, there's a whole generation out there whose anarchism was shaped by the 84/85 miners' strike, or the Poll Tax rebellion. What would be the contemporary equivalent influences today, and how does that play out? And I suppose that does also help offset the temptation to idealise the past - sure I wasn't around for either the Poll Tax or AFA, but I've definitely heard about how everyone involved in both those movements always got along, and never spawned any incomprehensible, very long-running, bitter grudges.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> And preferably also a 77-year-old who'd been going for 30 years at the time of LDC's first bookfair, round the sample out a bit.


😐 No comment.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 5, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Bradford 1-in-12 Club



How was it? I hope it was interesting in all the ways that you'd hope and also uneventful in all the ways that you'd hope? The fact that we don't have ten pages on it already is probably a good sign.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> How was it? I hope it was interesting in all the ways that you'd hope and also uneventful in all the ways that you'd hope? The fact that we don't have ten pages on it already is probably a good sign.


Really good, got a decent amount of traffic throughout the day (especially considering the situation), lots of people saying how nice it was to catch-up and see people again. Good fun with the anarchist top trumps competition.

Only depressing part was walking through Bradford and seeing how many more places had shut since June. City centre is full of empty buildings (many of them really rather lovely buildings). 


BTA in case anyone is not aware Manchester Bookfair is 6th November, at the People's History Museum.


----------



## LDC (Sep 5, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Really good, got a decent amount of traffic throughout the day (especially considering the situation), lots of people saying how nice it was to catch-up and see people again. Good fun with the anarchist top trumps competition.
> 
> Only depressing part was walking through Bradford and seeing how many more places had shut since June. City centre is full of empty buildings (many of them really rather lovely buildings).
> 
> ...



Yeah Bradford has been a bit fucked for ages, but I went there the other day and was genuinely shocked how grim and run down it was.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah Bradford has been a bit fucked for ages, but I went there the other day and was genuinely shocked how grim and run down it was.


It's famously grim up north


----------



## A380 (Sep 5, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah Bradford has been a bit fucked for ages, but I went there the other day and was genuinely shocked how grim and run down it was.


Did they ever rebuild the shopping centre after the company than ‘acquired’ the old one demolished it and then went bust leaving a building site in the middle of the town for much of the late 90s?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 5, 2021)

I always remember the time as a 30 something white British bloke turning up in Bradford train station with two work colleagues, a sixty something Jamaican woman and a really grumpy fifty something Polish guy, and we got a taxi to a hotel on the edge of town and the taxi driver was like "so you here on holiday?" I was like yeah these are my parents and we're looking forward to exploring Bradford together.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 5, 2021)

A380 said:


> Did they ever rebuild the shopping centre after the company than ‘acquired’ the old one demolished it and then went bust leaving a building site in the middle of the town for much of the late 90s?


Yes a new modern shopping centre, the Broadway, there now. Problem is that has just shifted the shops around.


----------



## A380 (Sep 5, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> I always remember the time as a 30 something white British bloke turning up in Bradford train station with two work colleagues, a sixty something Jamaican woman and a really grumpy fifty something Polish guy, and we got a taxi to a hotel on the edge of town and the taxi driver was like "so you here on holiday?" I was like yeah these are my parents and we're looking forward to exploring Bradford together.


I actually went on holiday to Bradford for a week in 2012- long story. But it was a good holiday. I have yet to meet anyone else who has done this…


----------



## smokedout (Sep 5, 2021)

Bradford Council have been insisting the city is on the brink of a tourism explosion ever since the The National Museum of Photography, Film & Television opened up in 1983.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2021)

smokedout said:


> Bradford Council have been insisting the city is on the brink of a tourism explosion ever since the The National Museum of Photography, Film & Television opened up in 1983.


tbf i went there as part of a holiday - first time ever in an Imax - saw Rolling Stones Live - Micks face was too big is my only memory
soon moved on up to the Dales after that


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2021)

Turns out I'm going. Lord have mercy on my soul.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 8, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Turns out I'm going. Lord have mercy on my soul.


If you see an empty space. think fondly upon it and perhaps leave a single rose.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 8, 2021)

Make sure you scrawl ACG Rulz in the toilets in black marker 

And write click here for PDF underneath in blue marker underlined


----------



## co-op (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> However, this spat does need cleared up because people keep smearing us as transphobes and it’s got to stop.



It's how the entire shitty debate over gender and sex has been conducted from the beginning of the trans campaign. If you're happy to throw the insult of 'bigot' or 'transphobe' at any one, including those with a long history in left wing liberationist sexual politics then you can't cry when its thrown at you. 

Yes it's obviously bullshit in this case, yes it's been used for years now in exactly this way and yes you're just upset now because it's you that's getting it and not dishing it out. How long did you think it would take before it was used as a shitty political tool against _you_?

The idea that this debate can be shut down by shouting "transphobia" is so fucking dead now I can't believe anyone is still invested in it. Who gets to decide what is and isn't transphobic?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

co-op said:


> If you're happy to throw the insult of 'bigot' or 'transphobe' at any one, including those with a long history in left wing liberationist sexual politics then you can't cry when its thrown at you.
> 
> Yes it's obviously bullshit in this case, yes it's been used for years now in exactly this way and yes you're just upset now because it's you that's getting it and not dishing it out. How long did you think it would take before it was used as a shitty political tool against _you_?


I’m always ‘dishing it out’ am I?  You’ll no doubt have many examples, then.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m always ‘dishing it out’ am I?  You’ll no doubt have many examples, then.


its almost as if people who try to stand in the middle of the road will get hit by both sides


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> its almost as if people who try to stand in the middle of the road will get hit by both sides


This comment is just as baffling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2021)

co-op said:


> It's how the entire shitty debate over gender and sex has been conducted from the beginning of the trans campaign. If you're happy to throw the insult of 'bigot' or 'transphobe' at any one, including those with a long history in left wing liberationist sexual politics then you can't cry when its thrown at you.
> 
> Yes it's obviously bullshit in this case, yes it's been used for years now in exactly this way and yes you're just upset now because it's you that's getting it and not dishing it out. How long did you think it would take before it was used as a shitty political tool against _you_?
> 
> The idea that this debate can be shut down by shouting "transphobia" is so fucking dead now I can't believe anyone is still invested in it. Who gets to decide what is and isn't transphobic?


If anyone's a shitty political tool here it's you


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> This comment is just as baffling.


Can't be long before you get called a bourgeois dilettante.


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> its almost as if people who try to stand in the middle of the road will get hit by both sides


I don’t think it's justified to suggest (if that's what you are suggesting) that danny la rouge is trying to stand in the middle of the road, if by that you mean sitting on the fence or failing to argue a genuine and reasonable position. 

But it's certainly true that there are dogmatists at both extremes of the issue who will accuse anyone who doesn't embrace their position of some shit or other.

co op has already proved themselves to be in this category, IMO, and you appear to be in danger of going the same way.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

Thanks andysays


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> This comment is just as baffling.


Are you really that naive/deluded?  


andysays said:


> I don’t think it's justified to suggest (if that's what you are suggesting) that danny la rouge is trying to stand in the middle of the road, if by that you mean sitting on the fence or failing to argue a genuine and reasonable position.
> 
> But it's certainly true that there are dogmatists at both extremes of the issue who will accuse anyone who doesn't embrace their position of some shit or other.
> 
> co op has already proved themselves to be in this category, IMO, and you appear to be in danger of going the same way.


I am referring to the ACG rather than danny specifically, but the argument still holds. 

It is easy to see where the accusation of being soft on terf's comes from - its from that letter Edinburgh AF signed post the last bookfair.   Its been followed up by a weak as fuck statement on trans rights, which was then updated a bit to be improved, but still wholly acceptable to all but the most vicious terfs.   

Just cos danny and the other ACGers are generally nice and sound people doesn't mean they get a pass for espousing lousy liberal politics.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 8, 2021)

You can make many different types of statement about the trans wars.  However,  one thing that makes no sense at all is to label the varied parts of it (from hard left to hard right) that reject the uncritical acceptance of trans identities (for whatever reason) as “liberal”. It’s the very opposite of liberal. Liberal means that you take the isolated individual as primary, and their opinion as sovereign regarding their position and role in the world.  The only reasonable liberal stance is the uncritical acceptance that if a person says they are a woman, that means they are a woman.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> a weak as fuck statement on trans rights, which was then updated a bit to be improved, but still wholly acceptable to all but the most vicious terfs.


Wow.  “wholly acceptable to all but the most vicious terfs”.  In what way are we being “weak as fuck” on trans rights?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid I’m deluded enough to need it pointed out to me where the statements are “weak as fuck” and acceptable to all but the  “most vicious terfs”.

They’re both here:









						Statements - Anarchist Communist Group
					

The following are statements by the Anarchist Communist Group since its formation in February 2018,         8 April 2021 (this statement supersedes the earlier statement of 11 August 2019)    Trans Rights Statement    We, the ACG, reaffirm our support for trans and non-binary people. We...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m always ‘dishing it out’ am I?  You’ll no doubt have many examples, then.


You monster!!!!!111!!


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Wow.  “wholly acceptable to all but the most vicious terfs”.  In what way are we being “weak as fuck” on trans rights?


well, you clearly had a clue  the original ACG statemwnt on trans rights was somewhat lacking as you updated it after eighteen months.

It says you oppose trans oppression, who doesnt (except for the most vicious terfs)?   

Then we get to the a paragraph that is almost literally a seat fitted fence:

_The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught and has resulted in extreme polarisation, making it very difficult to unite against patriarchy, gender oppression and capitalism. Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience – females socialised as women, trans women, trans men, and non-binary – is needed in order to move forward._

Which actually says absolutely nothing about to how to resolve those differences, which makes it just a vague platitude.   ffs you can't even bring yourself to use the word cis.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, you clearly had a clue  the original ACG statemwnt on trans rights was somewhat lacking as you updated it after eighteen months.
> 
> It says you oppose trans oppression, who doesnt (except for the most vicious terfs)?
> 
> ...


Ah. Transphobia = “not saying cis enough”.  Got you now.  

Good to know.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> belboid I’m deluded enough to need it pointed out to me where the statements are “weak as fuck” and acceptable to all but the  “most vicious terfs”.
> 
> They’re both here:
> 
> ...


The paragraph added to the new statement is an improvement. But it still fence sits on the key questions of the debates - whether you accept that trans women are women, and over self id. So you're left with nothing but vague generalities.


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

Jesus, belboid, you're really showing yourself up with the 'one true path', 'my way or the highway' ideologue ranting.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 8, 2021)

In the political tradition I come from*, updating your positions based on discussion and reflection is a good thing. 

(*Ultra-Armchair-Fozzieism)


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah. Transphobia = “not saying cis enough”.  Got you now.
> 
> Good to know.


yeah, just ignore everything else, like you normally do.  

God I hate liberals


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> it still fence sits on the key questions of the debates - whether you accept that trans women are women


 No it doesn’t.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> yeah, just ignore everything else, like you normally do.
> 
> God I hate liberals


Jesus.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear you differ significantly from comfy-armchair-pickmansism where we reflect first and then discuss


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> God I hate liberals


Looks at watch... I'm expecting you to call us "social fascists" in a post coming soon...


----------



## Sue (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Can't be long before you get called a bourgeois dilettante.





Serge Forward said:


> Looks at watch... I'm expecting you to call us "social fascists" in a post coming soon...


I'm holding out for 'capitalist running dogs'.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Jesus, belboid, you're really showing yourself up with the 'one true path', 'my way or the highway' ideologue ranting.


lol, fudge is quite tasty, but it doesn't really provide for a nourishing meal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm holding out for 'capitalist running dogs'.


Lickspittles of the bourgeoisie


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Looks at watch... I'm expecting you to call us "social fascists" in a post coming soon...





Sue said:


> I'm holding out for 'capitalist running dogs'.


why would i say that, this is pure middle of the road liberalism.


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

You're a living parody belboid.


----------



## Sue (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> why would i say that, this is pure middle of the road liberalism.


They clearly need to up their running dog game.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> _The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught and has resulted in extreme polarisation, making it very difficult to unite against patriarchy, gender oppression and capitalism. Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience – females socialised as women, trans women, trans men, and non-binary – is needed in order to move forward._
> 
> Which actually says absolutely nothing about to how to resolve those differences, which makes it just a vague platitude.   ffs you can't even bring yourself to use the word cis.


How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "_Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" _which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> No it doesn’t.


that is a plain lie.  Neither statement mentions anything on those two questions. You may think they're implied, but they certainly aren't stated.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "_Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" _which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)


I wouldn't be surprised if he agrees with John major that we should condemn a little more and understand a little less


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "_Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" _which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)


Sensitivity and understanding is liberalism, dontcha know.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> How should people resolve those differences, belboid (aside from "_Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" _which I am unclear if you agree or disagree with?)


well, at some point, you'll have to take a decision on who you agree with.    The ones who want to exclude trans people from womens spaces, or the ones who want them to be included. Pretending that you can do otherwise is just dishonest. And you need to show active solidarity with who you support, you know putting theory into practice.

Sensitivity and understanding is great, as long as it doesnt stop you from taking action.


----------



## chilango (Sep 8, 2021)

It's easy to get caught in the middle of the road when there's people speeding by on bandwagons shouting.


----------



## Athos (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, at some point, you'll have to take a decision on who you agree with.    The ones who want to exclude trans people from womens spaces, or the ones who want them to be included. Pretending that you can do otherwise is just dishonest. And you need to show active solidarity with who you support, you know putting theory into practice.
> 
> Sensitivity and understanding is great, as long as it doesnt stop you from taking action.


Genuine question: are you an absolutist in this issue i.e. there are *no circumstances whatsoever* in which it might be right to restrict access to cis women only?


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> Genuine question: are you an absolutist in this issue i.e. there are *no circumstances whatsoever* in which it might be right to restrict access to cis women only?


you have never asked a 'genuine question' on this subject in your life.


----------



## Athos (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> you have never asked a 'genuine question' on this subject in your life.


That's untrue.  But the question stands... so?


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> Are you really that naive/deluded?
> 
> I am referring to the ACG rather than danny specifically, but the argument still holds.
> 
> ...


OK, I tried to include a bit of room in my previous post for the possibility that I might have misunderstood, but it appears I understood you perfectly.

There's no real argument from you here, or in your various subsequent posts.

Like a true dogmatist, you're apparently so convinced of your position and of the utter wrongness of everyone else that you don't even bother with anything resembling coherent argument and instead rely solely on insult and shit flinging.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> you have never asked a 'genuine question' on this subject in your life.


Yeh we all know the opening credits of the Athos show


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

What passes for an anarchist "movement" and sections of "the left" in this country and elsewhere has torn itself apart because of trans-exclusionary types on the one hand and "everyone who doesn't agree 100% with us is a TERF/fascist". Both sides are wankers. I think a call for dialogue and level of understanding is the only way through this... that, or just ignore both sets of wankers. Meanwhile belboid, you want to pick your side, good luck with it.


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> In the political tradition I come from*, updating your positions based on discussion and reflection is a good thing.
> 
> (*Ultra-Armchair-Fozzieism)





Pickman's model said:


> Fozzie Bear you differ significantly from comfy-armchair-pickmansism where we reflect first and then discuss


You're both doing it wrong, BTW.

You need to unify both elements of the false binary and be able to reflect and discuss simultaneously, whatever sort of chair you're sitting in/on, or even if you're standing.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> What passes for an anarchist "movement" and sections of "the left" in this country and elsewhere has torn itself apart because of trans-exclusionary types on the one hand and "everyone who doesn't agree 100% with us is a TERF/fascist". Both sides are wankers. I think a call for dialogue and level of understanding is the only way through this... that, or just ignore both sets of wankers. Meanwhile belboid, you want to pick your side, good luck with it.


But that is the game you’re playing.   And you don’t get out of it by not stating your position.  

‘Ooh, all this division is bad’ isn’t an argument.   It isn’t nuanced or balanced, it’s just… nothing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

"_Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" _is clearly not about to happen on this thread.

Which is a shame because that’s what’s needed.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, at some point, you'll have to take a decision on who you agree with.    The ones who want to exclude trans people from womens spaces, or the ones who want them to be included.


Ah, _managerialism_. And to think that he’s the one calling others “liberals”


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> But that is the game you’re playing.   And you don’t get out of it by not stating your position.
> 
> ‘Ooh, all this division is bad’ isn’t an argument.   It isn’t nuanced or balanced, it’s just… nothing.


Are you for real? On second thoughts, don't bother answering that. In the interests of sensitivity and understanding, I think I'll have a break from responding to you.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

who’d have thunk that an ‘anarchist communist’ organisation would see their role as being a conciliator rather than a fighting force.  Hey ho


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Ah, _managerialism_. And to think that he’s the one calling others “liberals”


How’s the anarchist investment advice going?

The fact that you think only managers can make decisions tells us all we need to know about your politics.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Are you for real? On second thoughts, don't bother answering that. In the interests of sensitivity and understanding, I think I'll have a break from responding to you.


Do come back when you have a position on something.   Or an argument at least.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> How’s the anarchist investment advice going?
> 
> The fact that you think only managers can make decisions tells us all we need to know about your politics.


One to add to the list of the ways that you are embarrassing yourself: you don’t know what managerialism is.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

kabbes said:


> One to add to the list of the ways that you are embarrassing yourself: you don’t know what managerialism is.


One of its bases is that professional managers are required.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2021)

Just as well there wasn’t any anarchist bookfairs  in the Spanish Civil War


----------



## kabbes (Sep 8, 2021)

When presented with an artefact of patriarchal violence, my instinct isn’t to prioritise the question of which marginalised group is more worthy of the different types of managerial mitigation offered by capital. Yes, those at the front end of it have to make those decisions and I would expect them to do so based on situational context, about which I know nothing (by definition — it’s situational). But the important question for me, who is not at that front end, is to wonder why that violence that created the problem exists in the first place and what could be done to address it


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> What passes for an anarchist "movement" and sections of "the left" in this country and elsewhere has torn itself apart because of trans-exclusionary types on the one hand and "everyone who doesn't agree 100% with us is a TERF/fascist". Both sides are wankers. I think a call for dialogue and level of understanding is the only way through this... that, or just ignore both sets of wankers. Meanwhile belboid, you want to pick your side, good luck with it.


I should really thank you for the implicit acceptance of my initial description of the acg position.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, you clearly had a clue  the original ACG statemwnt on trans rights was somewhat lacking as you updated it after eighteen months.
> 
> It says you oppose trans oppression, who doesnt (except for the most vicious terfs)?
> 
> ...



That's not really the problem with that paragraph - the problem is that it's not true.  The relationship between trans women and cis women has not been fraught, quite the opposite.  Outside of the UK feminists almost universally support trans inclusion, and have since Dworkin's time, the only exception being the very small political lesbian movement and even they were split on the question.  Every piece of polling I've ever seen has shown that women are more accepting of trans people than men, and until 2015 there'd been barely a murmour from anyone in the UK other than the religious right about trans inclusion.  It echoes the current position of gender critical feminism, which is that the rights of women and trans women are opposed and that this is a universal opinion held by 'women', but it's not, it's a position held by gender critical activists, an increasing number of whom are men and who represent a miniscule slice of feminism globally or historically.  It also begs the question why this possible fraughtness?  It's because of men, and male violence, but once again cis men are conveniently ignored despite being responsible for almost all the violence women face whether cis or trans.

However the updated statement says this:



> The particular relationship between trans women and some other feminists has been fraught



I don't think this is problematic in the same way, and it also recognises that many trans women are feminists.  More importantly it suggests that some thought has gone into the new statement and a more nuanced position has emerged.  A better analysis however would be that the particular relationship between trans inclusive feminists and some other feminists has been fraught.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

kabbes said:


> When presented with an artefact of patriarchal violence, my instinct isn’t to prioritise the question of which marginalised group is more worthy of the different types of managerial mitigation offered by capital. Yes, those at the front end of it have to make those decisions and I would expect them to do so based on situational context, about which I know nothing (by definition — it’s situational). But the important question for me, who is not at that front end, is to wonder why that violence that created the problem exists in the first place and what could be done to address it


A - you will frequently know quite a lot about the situational context, so it is simply untrue that you won’t ‘by definition’.  Not least because your wider understanding of patriarchal violence has been informed by those situations.  

B - you cannot separate the current examples of that violence from the general theory.  Your principles inform how you see those examples.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 8, 2021)

In terms of getting any kind of movement, any kind of improvement and dialogue - along with moving the focus onto things like campaigns against male violence, gosh, _even creating a better world_ - I struggle to think of anything worse than your shouty absolutism belboid .


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> In terms of getting any kind of movement, any kind of improvement and dialogue - along with moving the focus onto things like campaigns against male violence, gosh, _even creating a better world_ - I struggle to think of anything worse than your shouty absolutism belboid .


Sitting on the fence and pretending everything is just an abstract discussion and that anything will be resolved if we just talk nicely will do even less, I assure you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> Sitting on the fence and pretending everything is just an abstract discussion and that anything will be resolved if we just talk nicely will do even less, I assure you.


Which begs the question, why are you posting then?


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> "_Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience" _is clearly not about to happen on this thread.
> 
> Which is a shame because that’s what’s needed.


One thing that occurred to me on reading the ACG statement previously, which I've just remembered on reading your quote of it here, is that
the bit about _the oppression that different groups experience _might be better if it said

_the different oppressions that different groups experience_

or something similar which suggests that although various groups experience oppression, they might experience it in different ways, and that resolution of these differences needs to acknowledge and work through those different experiences, rather than anyone thinking/arguing/claiming that because someone else's group don't experience the same oppression in the same way, their oppression is somehow lesser or even not real.

(I hope that suggestion doesn't lead to me being condemned as a liberal or, even worse, as "sensitive"...)


----------



## chilango (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> Sitting on the fence and pretending everything is just an abstract discussion and that anything will be resolved if we just talk nicely will do even less, I assure you.


This might be a more pertinent point to discuss if there were more (any?) women involved in this discussion*. But a bunch of (mostly?) middle-aged white cisblokes shouldn't be the ones moving away from the abstract towards the concrete on this one.

*on this thread. No idea what the demographics of the ACG or the Bookfair crew are tbh.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

chilango said:


> This might be a more pertinent point to discuss if there were more (any?) women involved in this discussion*. But a bunch of (mostly?) middle-aged white cisblokes shouldn't be the ones moving away from the abstract towards the concrete on this one.
> 
> *on this thread. No idea what the demographics of the ACG or the Bookfair crew are tbh.


True.  Which makes it an even bigger shame that the actions of some middle aged white cis blokes drive so many trans women and men away.


----------



## Sue (Sep 8, 2021)

chilango said:


> This might be a more pertinent point to discuss if there were more (any?) women involved in this discussion*. But a bunch of (mostly?) middle-aged white cisblokes shouldn't be the ones moving away from the abstract towards the concrete on this one.
> 
> *on this thread. No idea what the demographics of the ACG or the Bookfair crew are tbh.


I don't comment in these discussions because I suspect that I'd end up using the 'wrong' vocabulary or something and get jumped on and I haven't the time or inclination to get involve in the nitpicking fighting.


----------



## A380 (Sep 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just as well there wasn’t any anarchist bookfairs  in the Spanish Civil War


Well, there were no Wetherspoon’s in Barcelona…


----------



## Sue (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> True.  Which makes it an even bigger shame that the actions of some middle aged white cis blokes drive so many trans women and men away.


And it's a shame that the shoutiness of blokes like you drive so many cis women away.

(You always sound so _angry_. It doesn't exactly encourage people to discuss or debate with you. I mean, I fully expect to get jumped on for even saying this so there's no way I'd actually discuss any of this with you. I suspect I'm not alone in this.)

ETA And I suspect not just cis women either.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, at some point, you'll have to take a decision on who you agree with.    The ones who want to exclude trans people from womens spaces, or the ones who want them to be included. Pretending that you can do otherwise is just dishonest. And you need to show active solidarity with who you support, you know putting theory into practice.
> 
> Sensitivity and understanding is great, as long as it doesnt stop you from taking actionit's a shame that the shoutiness of blokes like you drive so many cis women away.





Sue said:


> (You always sound so _angry_. It doesn't exactly encourage people to discuss or debate with you. I mean, I fully expect to get jumped on for even saying this so there's no way I'd actually discuss any of this with you. I suspect I'm not alone in this.)
> 
> ETA And I suspect not just cis women either.


Perhaps belboid could say what he wants the ACG to say on this matter?

That might help the discussion?


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Perhaps belboid could say what he wants the ACG to say on this matter?
> 
> That might help the discussion?


He can say what he likes but I'm afraid it won't be me answering as I've currently got the trolling cunt's bad faith bollocks on ignore


----------



## Wilf (Sep 8, 2021)

chilango said:


> This might be a more pertinent point to discuss if there were more (any?) women involved in this discussion*. But a bunch of (mostly?) middle-aged white cisblokes shouldn't be the ones moving away from the abstract towards the concrete on this one.
> 
> *on this thread. No idea what the demographics of the ACG or the Bookfair crew are tbh.


I think there's an entirely legitimate discussion to be had about this when it plays out in different settings, like the bookfair. Maybe also about the wider politics that are in play in this debate, or at least the form it takes. But yes, very much so as to your core point. It would be great if this was a discussion primarily between those most affected.   And yes, a shouty white men's discussion makes that even less likely.


----------



## co-op (Sep 8, 2021)

chilango said:


> This might be a more pertinent point to discuss if there were more (any?) women involved in this discussion*. But a bunch of (mostly?) middle-aged white cisblokes shouldn't be the ones moving away from the abstract towards the concrete on this one.



As far as I know all the gender critical feminist women on U75 have been successfully shut up by The Agreement (the decision not to allow any discussion of gender and sex and the massive split in the left on this, an "agreement" that I never remember seeing let alone agreeing to, I was just told to shut up when I posted about a left wing socialist trades unionist feminists harassment by trans + allies).

Hence discussion on this issue by gc feminists here is now via PM. 

But it's as funny as fuck seeing this utterly shit and bogus allegation of "transphobia" being thrown at and by the same people that chose to damn any and all GC posters as "transphobes" and "bigots". Did you really think this sort of stupid purity-spiralling would stop neatly at some line you are the right side of? Unbelievable naivety. 

But then again, funny as fuck.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

Sue said:


> And it's a shame that the shoutiness of blokes like you drive so many cis women away.
> 
> (You always sound so _angry_. It doesn't exactly encourage people to discuss or debate with you. I mean, I fully expect to get jumped on for even saying this so there's no way I'd actually discuss any of this with you. I suspect I'm not alone in this.)
> 
> ETA And I suspect not just cis women either.


That, I accept, is entirely fair enough.  I do get incredibly impatient with people, tho have always tried to rein it in when talking with women or trans people, on this subject in particular.  Most of the time I'm not angry, I am honestly shocked and surprised at some of the excuses being trotted out to excuse vacuity. And by the refusal to engage at all beyond an 'oh yes it is/oh no it isn't level.'  On the occasions when people have actually tried to raise the issues involved, I'll reply politely. I wont when people are completely disingenuous or just go 'yes/no'.  

I just don't see why the ACG can't say whether they do or don't believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.  Avoiding saying so, refusing to clarify, is always going to be seen as fence sitting or a cover for whichever position you want to accuse them of. Refusing to have a position isn't really a rejection of the whole question, it just accepts the status quo.   And, by saying it, you are offering trans people solidarity not just sympathy and sensitivity.


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> I just don't see why the ACG can't say whether they do or don't believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.



Is that _really _what it comes down to? That simple position without any qualifying or questioning or discussion or in fact anything. And from the whole organization with no other position or people unsure atm allowed within it?

Just a 'yes they are' or 'no they're not'? Really?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 8, 2021)

co-op said:


> As far as I know all the gender critical feminist women on U75 have been successfully shut up by The Agreement (the decision not to allow any discussion of gender and sex and the massive split in the left on this, an "agreement" that I never remember seeing let alone agreeing to, I was just told to shut up when I posted about a left wing socialist trades unionist feminists harassment by trans + allies).
> 
> Hence discussion on this issue by gc feminists here is now via PM.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about the purity spiralling, in terms of the last couple of pages on this thread, as part of the 'stall' story and what has gone on in the wider left. Same time, I'm unsure why you regard the ACG in general and Danny in particular as "happy to throw the insult of 'bigot' or 'transphobe' at any one, including those with a long history in left wing liberationist sexual politics then you can't cry when its thrown at you".  I'm confused, so that is as they say 'a genuine question'.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is that _really _what it comes down to? That simple position without any qualifying or questioning or discussion or in fact anything. And from the whole organization with no other position or people unsure atm allowed within it?
> 
> Just a 'yes they are' or 'no they're not'? Really?


It's more to do with why they are _refusing to, _not just within the statement explicitly on trans rights, but in the ongoing discussion in general.

If a political group is releasing a statement on trans rights I dont think it is unreasonable to state what they believe about one of the key central concerns of the whole discussion. It's the debate boiled down to its essence, if you like. If the actual practical issues aren't addressed, it's all ever only going to abstract chatter. Which is fine if you're on a philosophy course, but not if you are political organisation. 

And it is seen as an act of solidarity (whichever way it is stated) and, I say again, I go for solidarity not just sympathy.


----------



## Athos (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> That, I accept, is entirely fair enough.  I do get incredibly impatient with people, tho have always tried to rein it in when talking with women or trans people, on this subject in particular.  Most of the time I'm not angry, I am honestly shocked and surprised at some of the excuses being trotted out to excuse vacuity. And by the refusal to engage at all beyond an 'oh yes it is/oh no it isn't level.'  On the occasions when people have actually tried to raise the issues involved, I'll reply politely. I wont when people are completely disingenuous or just go 'yes/no'.
> 
> I just don't see why the ACG can't say whether they do or don't believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.  Avoiding saying so, refusing to clarify, is always going to be seen as fence sitting or a cover for whichever position you want to accuse them of. Refusing to have a position isn't really a rejection of the whole question, it just accepts the status quo.   And, by saying it, you are offering trans people solidarity not just sympathy and sensitivity.


That's laughably reductive. Lots of people belive that trans women are women, but that there are legitimate reasons to limit some spaces to cis women. On that issue, what do you think? That it can be legitimate, or that it never can?


----------



## co-op (Sep 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I agree with you about the purity spiralling, in terms of the last couple of pages on this thread, as part of the 'stall' story and what has gone on in the wider left. Same time, I'm unsure why you regard the ACG in general and Danny in particular as "happy to throw the insult of 'bigot' or 'transphobe' at any one, including those with a long history in left wing liberationist sexual politics then you can't cry when its thrown at you".  I'm confused, so that is as they say 'a genuine question'.



To be fair I don't remember DLR being one of the big pitchfork wielders when GC feminism was being denounced as social fascism or whatever genderists want it to be but he has been patronising and sneering for the past week or two at Scottish women's campaign to oppose the GRA in Scotland so it's reasonably clear what he thinks. 

But maybe I should withdraw that allegation since I cannot remember danny la rouge actually saying it. But maybe DLR could confirm whether he thinks I'm a "transphobe"? And quote a post to justify it?


TBH I don't keep a record and the TRAs were so happy to collectively use this tactic and collectively hide behind it that anyone who has been onside suddenly getting thrown to the wolves is like - yep! - that's what happens, and is what is going to happen to a whole lot more of you unless you chant louder, prioritise more, condemn more etc etc. Basically unless you swallow everything 100%, and talk about nothing else, you are borderline a "transphobe"


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> It's more to do with why they are _refusing to, _not just within the statement explicitly on trans rights, but in the ongoing discussion in general.
> 
> If a political group is releasing a statement on trans rights I dont think it is unreasonable to state what they believe about one of the key central concerns of the whole discussion. It's the debate boiled down to its essence, if you like. If the actual practical issues aren't addressed, it's all ever only going to abstract chatter. Which is fine if you're on a philosophy course, but not if you are political organisation.
> 
> And it is seen as an act of solidarity (whichever way it is stated) and, I say again, I go for solidarity not just sympathy.



I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.


----------



## co-op (Sep 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.



Disagreeing with the statement "transwomen are women" is _absolutely_ "transphobic". It's like the Ur transphobia, the Original Sin. Women are made from men, don't you remember the Bible?


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.


I think refusing to agree or disagree (or at least to reduce the whole discussion to agreeing or disagreeing) with such a simplistic and ultimately polarising statement is actually quite a sensible position to take, assuming you're interested in reaching a position which might have a chance of achieving some broadish agreement rather than just pleasing the dogmatic extremists on one side or the other.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't think refusing to say, or disagreeing with or needing to qualify, the statement that 'trans-women are women' necessarily makes you a transphobe though, maybe that's where we differ.


I haven't called anyone a transphobe. I have said I understand why they are seen as _soft on_ transphobes - which is down to the refusal to state a position.  And I initially made the point in reaction to co-ops posting which accuses the ACG of calling other people transphopbes - which is, again, due to the refusal to take a position. To rephrase my original sentence, standing in the middle of a battlefield leaves you liable to being shot by both sides.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think refusing to agree or disagree (or at least to reduce the whole discussion to agreeing or disagreeing) with such a simplistic and ultimately polarising statement is actually quite a sensible position to take, assuming you're interested in reaching a position which might have a chance of achieving some broadish agreement rather than just pleasing the dogmatic extremists on one side or the other.


This was the position of Militant/Socialist Party in the six counties - just _dont mention the border _and lets unite about everything else. Didn't really work when so much came back to the border in one way or another.  Effectively, it just accepted the status quo.


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> I haven't called anyone a transphobe. I have said I understand why they are seen as _soft on_ transphobes - which is down to the refusal to state a position.  And I initially made the point in reaction to co-ops posting which accuses the ACG of calling other people transphopbes - which is, again, due to the refusal to take a position. To rephrase my original sentence, standing in the middle of a battlefield leaves you liable to being shot by both sides.


This is you worming your way into the heart of the crowd, is it?


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is you worming your way into the heart of the crowd, is it?


I reject secret understandings.


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> I reject secret understandings.


Next you'll be claiming you were shocked to find what was allowed


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> Next you'll be claiming you were shocked to find what was allowed


dammit, I really should have done.  Oh well, what choice do i have but to live and learn?


----------



## chilango (Sep 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is that _really _what it comes down to? That simple position without any qualifying or questioning or discussion or in fact anything. And from the whole organization with no other position or people unsure atm allowed within it?
> 
> Just a 'yes they are' or 'no they're not'? Really?


Any longer and you can't fit it on a placard.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

chilango said:


> Any longer and you can't fit it on a placard.


but you can fit it into a group's official Trans Rights Statement .


----------



## co-op (Sep 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think refusing to agree or disagree (or at least to reduce the whole discussion to agreeing or disagreeing) with such a simplistic and ultimately polarising statement is actually quite a sensible position to take, assuming you're interested in reaching a position which might have a chance of achieving some broadish agreement rather than just pleasing the dogmatic extremists on one side or the other.


Isn't the point that you could agree or disagree with the statement and this not necessarily be the absolute be-all and end-all definition-issue of your politics? It's clear what I think (I think trans women are not women in case anyone is unaware of the history) but I have no problem thinking that people who disagree with me on this are not bigots, not necessarily misogynists etc.

But from the "tw are w" crew this is completely fanatical black and white; any deviation - the merest hint of deviation - and you are utter bigoted scum and there is no other way of looking at the issue. hence my amusement at watching the ACG getting in the sights of these fanatics; they're right - the ACG _is_ equivocating. By the standards of the time they _are_ transphobes. Those are the rules.

Btw for all that belboid is a purity-spiraller of the first order he's right that sitting on the fence means de facto rejection of the "tw are w" claim.


----------



## chilango (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> but you can fit it into a group's official Trans Rights Statement .


You could. Or maybe use the extra words allowed.

_shrugs_

I'm not in the ACG and "releasing official statements" isn't really my thing.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> I just don't see why the ACG can't say whether they do or don't believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.


I’d never even heard of the ACG before a few weeks ago, let alone be now in a position to claim to speak for them.  But for myself, I would say: give me your definition of a woman and from that I will be able to say whether trans women are women.  Because I personally don’t have a well-defined, coherent fixed definition that I can use to give  you a black-and-white response to that black-and-white question.  To me, there is only a reason to define a category if you have a purpose for doing so, and the purpose determines the definition.  There are different purposes for defining the category ”woman” and those different purposes will lead to slightly different results.

ETA: the point is that the _label_ is the least important and least interesting thing.  Certainly, it’s the thing I care least about and give least thought to.  It comes right at the end, after everything else.


----------



## LDC (Sep 8, 2021)

chilango said:


> ..."releasing official statements" isn't really my thing.



Issue _communiques _mate, _communiques. _Much cooler. 😎


----------



## JimW (Sep 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Issue _communiques _mate, _communiques. _Much cooler. 😎


Especially if stamp printed with your kid's playset.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’d never even heard of the ACG before a few weeks ago, let alone be now in a position to claim to speak for them.  But for myself, I would say: give me your definition of a woman and from that I will be able to say whether trans women are women.  Because I personally don’t have a well-defined, coherent fixed definition that I can use to give  you a black-and-white response to that black-and-white question.  To me, there is only a reason to define a category if you have a purpose for doing so, and the purpose determines the definition.  There are different purposes for defining the category ”woman” and those different purposes will lead to slightly different results.


I would agree with that, to a large extent. 'It's complicated' will never really satisfy anyone, and requires at least an essay to explain in any detail, but it is a position and at the minimum rejects the 'trans women can never be women' claim.

More importantly, a political group is defined by how its puts theory into practise, so if you want to start from such a position, you need to show what its practical implications are. I think it is fairly clear that in the current climate it would be a statement about the legal rights of trans women to access support and services, to have the same legal safeguards against discrimination as cis women.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> It is easy to see where the accusation of being soft on terf's comes from - its from that letter Edinburgh AF signed post the last bookfair.


With my pedantic proofreader's hat on here, do you actually mean the Edinburgh AF statement, or do you mean what became the ACG founding statement, the "class struggle anarchist" one that was kind of a rejection of the Edinburgh one?


kabbes said:


> You can make many different types of statement about the trans wars.  However,  one thing that makes no sense at all is to label the varied parts of it (from hard left to hard right) that reject the uncritical acceptance of trans identities (for whatever reason) as “liberal”. It’s the very opposite of liberal. Liberal means that you take the isolated individual as primary, and their opinion as sovereign regarding their position and role in the world.  The only reasonable liberal stance is the uncritical acceptance that if a person says they are a woman, that means they are a woman.


Don't think this is a helpful contribution, I don't think liberals are any more united on this issue than any other political category.


belboid said:


> who’d have thunk that an ‘anarchist communist’ organisation would see their role as being a conciliator rather than a fighting force.  Hey ho


Is this really your first encounter with the ultra-left? You'll be proper shocked when you hear what anarchist communists think about wars between nations.


belboid said:


> It's more to do with why they are _refusing to, _not just within the statement explicitly on trans rights, but in the ongoing discussion in general.
> 
> If a political group is releasing a statement on trans rights I dont think it is unreasonable to state what they believe about one of the key central concerns of the whole discussion. It's the debate boiled down to its essence, if you like. If the actual practical issues aren't addressed, it's all ever only going to abstract chatter.


See, it would never have occurred to me to criticise the ACG statement for not including "trans women are women" in it, cos that to me does seem like a fairly abstract slogan that's perfectly compatible with defending transphobia in practice. Like, I think the ACG's politics on this could be better but I don't really think that's cos there's anything wrong with the statement itself, more that they need to move beyond just having a statement and incorporate it into their practice a bit more. For instance, SolFed have been flyering Pride with trans healthcare know your rights stuff - that to me is moving to address actual practical issues, in a way that just saying "trans women are women" isn't.


belboid said:


> This was the position of Militant/Socialist Party in the six counties - just _dont mention the border _and lets unite about everything else. Didn't really work when so much came back to the border in one way or another.  Effectively, it just accepted the status quo.


I had actually been thinking about NI in relation to trans stuff as well recently, in particular cos of reading this, which I thought was really decent: Workers in Northern Ireland - Angry Workers Would you also see that as being fence-sitting acceptance of the status quo?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> That's laughably reductive. Lots of people belive that trans women are women, but that there are legitimate reasons to limit some spaces to cis women. On that issue, what do you think? That it can be legitimate, or that it never can?


Ffs stop asking difficult questions.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 8, 2021)

co-op said:


> But maybe I should withdraw that allegation since I cannot remember @danny la rouge actually saying it. But maybe DLR could confirm whether he thinks I'm a "transphobe"? And quote a post to justify it?


Please don’t take this amiss, but I’m afraid I have no idea what your opinion on anything is. I assume you like co-ops.


----------



## belboid (Sep 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> With my pedantic proofreader's hat on here, do you actually mean the Edinburgh AF statement, or do you mean what became the ACG founding statement, the "class struggle anarchist" one that was kind of a rejection of the Edinburgh one?


[/QUOTE]
i suspect so, and your correction explains why i couldnt find said statement


hitmouse said:


> Is this really your first encounter with the ultra-left? You'll be proper shocked when you hear what anarchist communists think about wars between nations.


I can easily understand 'turn _nation_ war into class war' - it makes clear sense and I can see how it can work out in practise. How does that work in this case? Beyond saying we dont care about seats on company boards, I dont see how it practically applies in any of the situations that the terf/trans argument raises. [well, I can, but only in a way that anyone else would say 'well, he would say that, wouldnt he?' way, so there's no point.]


hitmouse said:


> See, it would never have occurred to me to criticise the ACG statement for not including "trans women are women" in it, cos that to me does seem like a fairly abstract slogan that's perfectly compatible with defending transphobia in practice. Like, I think the ACG's politics on this could be better but I don't really think that's cos there's anything wrong with the statement itself, more that they need to move beyond just having a statement and incorporate it into their practice a bit more. For instance, SolFed have been flyering Pride with trans healthcare know your rights stuff - that to me is moving to address actual practical issues, in a way that just saying "trans women are women" isn't.


It is symbolic, absolutely.  But symbols are important (as long as they're not a simple substitute for practical action),  This is why, I presume, that Solfed twitter feed says, above the post you posted, that they'll be proudly flying the trans solidarity flag. It's akin to the need to say you need to show sensitivity; it's not enough, but it's a good starting point.

We could also get into the whole question of issuing 'statements.'  They'll always be a hostage to fortune and I'd think they were generally best avoided unless you want to be absolutely adamant about particular issues. They should be either a symbolic act of solidarity or a general guide to action, imo.  And then followed up with examples of that action.


hitmouse said:


> I had actually been thinking about NI in relation to trans stuff as well recently, in particular cos of reading this, which I thought was really decent: Workers in Northern Ireland - Angry Workers Would you also see that as being fence-sitting acceptance of the status quo?


It's a really good piece of journalism. I am somewhat dubious about the claim that catholics dont really face much discrimination any more, but dont know enough to say its wrong. Some of the maths is dodgy af too (103% of the private economy is apparently based in three sectors) The real issue lies with the final section. At the moment, they can probably get away with saying raising a border poll now would just be a splitting tactic. But it isnt true that such a poll is an entirely ruling class idea.  The Irish state is explicitly not raising it, the leadership of the political class of the nationalists aren't even raising it significantly.  When it does get raised, its from ordinary folk, frmo below.

The movement for irish unity is definitely not just a ruling class movement. When the (mainly catholic) workers start demanding a poll, arguing its just a bourgeois distraction wont cut it and I suspect they'd start losing their audience (this is, again based on what happened with Militant/SP).

I am very tempted to go on and describe just why I think NI is a good analogy for the questions around trans rights (essentially 'competing' interests among the working-class, where we should be 'on one side' but without saying all the other side are scum), but despite all appearances I really dont want to get into an argument about 'trans rights' per se.  It's the obfuscation that really bugs me. If you got nothing to say,  ffs, say nothing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 9, 2021)

co-op said:


> (I think trans women are not women in case anyone is unaware of the history)


OK. I was unaware of this history. I would need to hear more about your reasons for that before coming to an opinion about whether your position is transphobic.

I do think trans women are women.  I also think that trans women have particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women.  And vice versa.

As for the “Women Won’t Wheesht” brigade, my criticism of them is not that they oppose the GRA (I’m not well enough versed on the GRA to engage with them on that).  My criticism is that they’re all over Twitter saying trans women are paedophiles, “just in it for the kink”, and that there is a big conspiracy involving Nicola Sturgeon to allow fake trans women improper access to children.  That is - you’ll be unsurprised to learn - very much transphobic in my view. As well as deranged.  They seem completely obsessed.

My bet is that for most people that discourse is utterly alienating. Most people probably don’t place the issue of whether trans women are women very high on their list of priorities.  They probably think “if that’s how they feel, then sure”, then get on with their lives.  Obviously it’s a far bigger issue for trans women themselves. I’m just making a guess about the average non politico in the street.

Do you mind me asking: are you an anarchist?  Because if you’re not, then seeking this thread out to ask me whether I think your view is transphobic does kind of suggest to me that you may need to balance your priorities a bit better yourself.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 9, 2021)

It’s interesting that people rarely ask whether trans men are men.  (For the avoidance of doubt: in my opinion, yes).


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 9, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I do think trans women are women.  I also think that trans women have particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women.  And vice versa.


Careful now. That'll get you labelled a liberal in some quarters.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 9, 2021)

All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".

For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger,  trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc, etc, etc.

None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 9, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".
> 
> For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger,  trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc.
> 
> None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.


Correct.


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".
> 
> For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger,  trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc, etc, etc.
> 
> None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.



Surely by that logic you could extend it to all people irrespective of sex or gender, and say there's so much difference and variation between individuals that no specific categories hold? Or am I missing what you're saying?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 9, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s interesting that people rarely ask whether trans men are men.  (For the avoidance of doubt: in my opinion, yes).


The reason for that should be fairly obvious. Women, many women, regard men as a potential threat. This is a generality, but it holds good much of the time. Men on the other hand do not see women as being a threat, generally speaking. So there is a level of fear and/or distrust which affects any discourse on the subject, arising from lived experiences.

Rape crisis centres usually exclude men, not because all men are evil, but because some men will be a threat and it is not possible to tell which ones. This has historically caused problems when it comes to e.g. teenage sons. No easy solutions. No perfect solutions.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 9, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> All sorts of women have "particular experiences and face particular oppressions that are different from other women".
> 
> For example a woman may or may not be disabled, working class, BAME, LGBTQ*, intersex, older, younger,  trans, cis, homeless, unemployed, living with chronic illness, etc etc, etc, etc.
> 
> None of it has any bearing on whether or not she is a woman.


Yes and no one argues that BAME women can't organise BAME only spaces or lesbians Lesbian spaces so I don't understand why cis women aren't allowed by some to organise or insist on cis only spaces sometimes?

ETA: just to be clear I assume trans women are women.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Yes and no one argues that BAME women can't organise BAME only spaces or lesbians Lesbian spaces so I don't understand why cis women aren't allowed by some to organise or insist on cis only spaces sometimes?


Yes and no one argues that BAME women can't organise BAME only spaces or lesbians Lesbian spaces so I don't understand why white women aren't allowed by some to organise or insist on white only spaces sometimes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Yes and no one argues that BAME women can't organise BAME only spaces or lesbians Lesbian spaces so I don't understand why cis women aren't allowed by some to organise or insist on cis only spaces sometimes?
> 
> ETA: just to be clear I assume trans women are women.


i think some of the difficulty arises when these spaces are eg toilets. i don't imagine bame women would organise bame women only toilets or lesbians lesbian only toilets.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2021)

FTR I don't think you can make an equivalence between "white only" and "women only" spaces....and the reasons why you can't (power, privilege, status etc. structural and systemic oppression) are at the heart of the question in hand.


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2021)

E2A: You beat me to it!


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> E2A: You beat me to it!


Yep. The question ten becomes about whether ciswomen's structural oppression remains in relation to transwomen.

Indeed, are ciswomen structurally oppressed because they are "cis" as well as because they are women? This brings up a whole of questions. In


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 9, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yes and no one argues that BAME women can't organise BAME only spaces or lesbians Lesbian spaces so I don't understand why white women aren't allowed by some to organise or insist on white only spaces sometimes?


False equivalence imo. White women aren't oppressed because they're white. Cis women face issues as cis women and trans women as trans women as well as both sets facing issues as women.

For instance I know and have supported cis women who have lost out on promotions at work because of the "risk" of pregnancy. 

I also know and have supported trans women who have suffered horrific abuse, discrimination and assault.

Both groups are oppressed because of their circumstances and have the right to self organise when appropriate.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> False equivalence imo. White women aren't oppressed because they're white. Cis women face issues as cis women and trans women as trans women as well as both sets facing issues as women.
> 
> For instance I know and have supported cis women who have lost out on promotions at work because of the "risk" of pregnancy.
> 
> ...


I tend towards agreement. 

But it also requires an unpicking of how the different facets of oppression(s) intersect.  I think (and as a cisbloke I'm not any sort of expert on this so feel free to correct me) that ciswomen do not suffer structural oppression because they are cis _per se_ but because of biological or physical assumptions made about women more generally.

So, to take your example about discrimination towards women who may get pregnant. That discrimination is focussed on women within a certain age bracket. Older, post-menopausal women won't face that particular oppression. But younger women will, but including many who won't or can't get pregnant. There's also no particular reason why some transwomen might also face that particular discrimination. 

It's complicated and messy was my point.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 9, 2021)

I agree it's complicated and messy and I just want to add I have not personally come across any cis women who feel the need to self organise without trans women in person recently  - despite working alongside people who might be seen to be the most likely to want to exclude (including a rape crisis centre). 

Also unfortunately this is one argument where I feel the need to say this kind of thing so I don't get shouted at by people online - I was actually moderately involved in the campaign to support Laurel Hubbard here in NZ. 

However I can't help but feel that based on the evidence of my own (as a cis male) eyes and what little I have read on the subject it is not unreasonable for Cis women to organise their own spaces sometimes and if it it was unreasonable - it would not be for me to say.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> False equivalence imo. White women aren't oppressed because they're white. Cis women face issues as cis women and trans women as trans women as well as both sets facing issues as women.
> 
> For instance I know and have supported cis women who have lost out on promotions at work because of the "risk" of pregnancy.
> 
> ...



I broadly agree with you here.

But also:  I personally know two trans men who carried pregnancies and gave birth as men. There are many more out there. And many more who physically could but don't choose to. Where do they fit in?

And what about trans women who don't announce themselves to be trans, who are treated much like cis women and suffer discrimination on the basis that people assume they can get pregnant (much like many cis women who can't for medical reasons but still suffer that discrimination)?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 9, 2021)

Also just to add I think that cis men don't get to organise apart from trans men because we dont face discrimination as cis men. However trans men should be free to self organise whenever they want to because obviously they do.

ETA - I think this also answers Bills point although I hadnt seen it - in addition there may be times when trans men and cis women want to organise together - but I definitely know fuck all about that.

ETA ETA - the first point not the one after he edited.


----------



## andysays (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Also just to add I think that cis men don't get to organise apart from trans men because we dont face discrimination as cis men. However trans men should be free to self organise whenever they want to because obviously they do.
> 
> ETA - I think this also answers Bills point although I hadnt seen it - in addition there may be times when trans men and cis women want to organise together - but I definitely know fuck all about that.
> 
> ETA ETA - the first point not the one after he edited.


I don’t usually attempt to "correct" posters in these circumstances, but as I have previously had a very interesting conversation with BillRiver on this subject, I will point out that they have previously said that they wish to be referred to as they/them.

This is not a criticism or attack; it's quite possible that you weren't aware of their expressed preference (even though I see it's also in their tag line)


----------



## kabbes (Sep 9, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Surely by that logic you could extend it to all people irrespective of sex or gender, and say there's so much difference and variation between individuals that no specific categories hold? Or am I missing what you're saying?


Isn’t this getting back to the point of why identity politics is ultimately unhelpful?


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I broadly agree with you here.
> 
> But also:  I personally know two trans men who carried pregnancies and gave birth as men. There are many more out there. And many more who physically could but don't choose to. Where do they fit in?
> 
> And what about trans women who don't announce themselves to be trans, who are treated much like cis women and suffer discrimination on the basis that people assume they can get pregnant (much like many cis women who can't for medical reasons but still suffer that discrimination)?



What you've said illustrates something that makes me (and others I know) sometimes feel uncomfortable about how this issue has impacted massively on the wider political scene/movement/whatever. The fact that it seems to be sometimes _incredibly _individualized and personal, and sometimes devoid of any wider and deeper politics, partly shown by what you just said, which is often the response of people when discussing this. "But what about X?" or "I feel under threat or my existence is being denied" or "Even having this discussion is an attack" or something similar, which of course makes any reasoned discussion difficult, especially when I think some of those involved are quite damaged, and/or young, or are in a political scene for reasons to do with it being generally welcoming and tolerant as much as the politics themselves.

Equally often goes for other areas of what we call identity politics obviously.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 9, 2021)

It's a very big leap to go from acknowledging that disabled women experience oppressions in some ways differently from able-bodied women, or women of colour from white women, etc etc,  to arrive at it's all completely individualised and the social class that is woman is just nonsense identity politics blah blah blah!

I'd go as far as to say those reactions are nonsensical, in fact. Utter tripe, even.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don’t usually attempt to "correct" posters in these circumstances, but as I have previously had a very interesting conversation with BillRiver on this subject, I will point out that they have previously said that they wish to be referred to as they/them.
> 
> This is not a criticism or attack; it's quite possible that you weren't aware of their expressed preference (even though I see it's also in their tag line)



Yes, I am genderqueer/non binary, my pronouns are they/them.

Also, I'm not actually called Bill.

(edited for grammar)


----------



## LDC (Sep 9, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> It's a very big leap to go from acknowledging that disabled women experience oppressions in some ways differently from able-bodied women, or women of colour from white women, etc etc,  to arrive at it's all completely individualised and the social class that is woman is just nonsense identity politics blah blah blah!
> 
> I'd go as far as to say those reactions are nonsensical, in fact. Utter tripe, even.



Yes, but it seems to be a leap that plenty have made. Maybe we're talking past or misunderstanding each other?

*Ah, edited it out, nothing important.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don’t usually attempt to "correct" posters in these circumstances, but as I have previously had a very interesting conversation with BillRiver on this subject, I will point out that they have previously said that they wish to be referred to as they/them.
> 
> This is not a criticism or attack; it's quite possible that you weren't aware of their expressed preference (even though I see it's also in their tag line)


Apologies BillRiver I hadn't noticed the tagline and wasn't aware. When I was more regularly posting I tried to use they/them for anyone I didn't know.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Apologies BillRiver I hadn't noticed the tagline and wasn't aware. When I was more regularly posting I tried to use they/them for anyone I didn't know.



Cheers, I appreciate you apologising. No harm done.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> i suspect so, and your correction explains why i couldnt find said statement


I think the server that hosted their website is down as well, although it’s still archived elsewhere. Poor Edinburgh AF, putting that much effort into slagging off the old bookfair collective as much as they could, and then going down in history as “weren’t they that lot who wrote that statement in defence of the bookfair collective that was a bit soft on terfs?”



> I can easily understand 'turn _nation_ war into class war' - it makes clear sense and I can see how it can work out in practise. How does that work in this case?


I think the slogan about “class war not race war” is probably a better comparison here – that slogan doesn’t deny that racial oppression exists, and it certainly isn’t opposed to bashing or confronting bigots, but it does still express that the general mission should be to defuse racial tensions rather than heightening them. So there’s another example of where you’d expect anarchist communists to act as conciliators as much if not more than a fighting force.



> It is symbolic, absolutely.  But symbols are important (as long as they're not a simple substitute for practical action),  This is why, I presume, that Solfed twitter feed says, above the post you posted, that they'll be proudly flying the trans solidarity flag. It's akin to the need to say you need to show sensitivity; it's not enough, but it's a good starting point.
> 
> We could also get into the whole question of issuing 'statements.'  They'll always be a hostage to fortune and I'd think they were generally best avoided unless you want to be absolutely adamant about particular issues. They should be either a symbolic act of solidarity or a general guide to action, imo.  And then followed up with examples of that action.


Yeah, that’s pretty fair, I just thought your earlier post seemed to be mixing up the symbolic and the practical a bit. But yeah, nothing wrong with symbolism, I think it would be good if the ACG also started using the trans flag more. Perhaps as the cover of a pamphlet called “Trans Liberation: A Contribution to the Debate: Perspectives on the Fight Against Transphobia: This Pamphlet is Now Available as a PDF”?



> I am very tempted to go on and describe just why I think NI is a good analogy for the questions around trans rights (essentially 'competing' interests among the working-class, where we should be 'on one side' but without saying all the other side are scum)


See, I tend to agree with you about NI being a good analogy for trans issues in some ways, even though I probably disagree with you about NI itself. But it seems to me that some of the objections to the ACG, at least coming from SE22/Binacg, is less about the points you mentioned and more just denouncing them for not being willing to say the other side are scum. I don’t know if the bookfair organisers share those objections, but when we finally got an opinion out of Rhyddical it did seem to point in a similar direction as well.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 9, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> False equivalence imo. White women aren't oppressed because they're white. Cis women face issues as cis women and trans women as trans women as well as both sets facing issues as women.
> 
> For instance I know and have supported cis women who have lost out on promotions at work because of the "risk" of pregnancy.
> 
> ...


Chilango covered much of this above, but on the specific self-organised spaces thing: I think there are issues that will only affect people with specific biology, so for instance it makes complete sense to have classes for people who are currently pregnant and preparing to give birth, or sessions for people coping with miscarriages, or post-natal depression, that are only open to people who fit those specific categories. But those lines don't fit to cis vs trans, or AFAB vs AMAB, or whatever. Like, it would be weird for a trans woman with no experience of pregnancy to turn up at a class for expectant mothers and be like "I am a woman and so I expect access to this woman's space", but it would be equally weird, imo, for a cis woman who had never been pregnant to do the same thing.
There are also social experiences based on being perceived to have specific biology, but again that doesn't really match up as cis v trans, like a trans woman who is read as being female might lose out as promotions because she's perceived as being at risk of pregnancy even if she isn't, while a trans man or enby who is biologically able to get pregnant might not have the same problem if they can perform socially expected behaviours in such a way that they don't get read as woman.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 9, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Isn’t this getting back to the point of why identity politics is ultimately unhelpful?


I mean, to me that exchange seems like an illustration of why "identity politics" is an unhelpful term, but that's just me.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 9, 2021)

Of course the real dilemma here is which T Shirt am I going to wear?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 9, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Of course the real dilemma here is which T Shirt am I going to wear?


"I applied for a stall at the bookfair and all I got was pointedly ignored by the organisers, and also this lousy t-shirt"?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> "I applied for a stall at the bookfair and all I got was pointedly ignored by the organisers, and also this lousy t-shirt"*?


* Available in M, L, XXL and PDF


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 10, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> * Available in M, L, XXL and PDF


Not available in PDF until at at least a week later.


----------



## deeyo (Sep 10, 2021)

T-shirts


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 10, 2021)

Maybe I've missed it in all the excitement, but has anyone come up with a settled definition of 'man' and 'woman' which can sensibly be used in these conversations? Time was when there was no confusion and definitions were based on biology and the respective role of each sex in reproducing the species. The same basic definitions applied to all other species of animal as well. If that is no longer the case, what is the case?


----------



## Athos (Sep 10, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Maybe I've missed it in all the excitement, but has anyone come up with a settled definition of 'man' and 'woman' which can sensibly be used in these conversations? Time was when there was no confusion and definitions were based on biology and the respective role of each sex in reproducing the species. The same basic definitions applied to all other species of animal as well. If that is no longer the case, what is the case?


Definitions have varied across time, space, and context. But, in the west for the last few hundred years the terms have been widely understood to correspond directly to biological categories i.e. male and female (albeit those categories can be predicated on slightly different things e.g. chromosomes, hormones, anatomical structures, gametes, which, whilst overlapping in the overwhelming majority of instances, do have some exceptional edge cases).  But, that's not a given; which definition we - as individuals or a society - subscribe too isn't an objective truth but a political choice.

Personally, I'm content to adopt a definition of 'woman' that includes trans women, for almost every circumstance. What I'm less comfortable with is imposing that on others.  But nor do I think trans people should have others' definition imposed on them.

We need an accommodation which, until consensus can be reached, allows for respectful disagreement whilst ensuring two groups who suffer disproportionately under capitalism - women and trans people - receive fair treatment.  (Not that I think it's a zero sum game i.e. that the interests of those groups are opposed or incompatible.)

Finding such an accommodation will require us to acknowledge the legitimate interests and viewpoints, whilst rejecting the absolutist cranks at either extreme e.g. the bigots who think it's all a paedophile plot (and, in fairness, the gender critical movement is becoming increasingly dominated by extremists), and the zealots - particularly men - who would rather brand people as bigots than attempt to empathise with a rape victim who might be nervous about sharing her safe space with a male-bodied person.


----------



## chilango (Sep 10, 2021)

Tbh we can't even sensibly define "Anarchist Bookfair" never mind anything else.


----------



## LDC (Sep 10, 2021)

chilango said:


> Tbh we can't even sensibly define "Anarchist Bookfair" never mind anything else.



All joking apart I do think the Bookfair was partly a site for some of these problems because to its size and popularity, and due to that plenty of people and groups with tenuous (or no) connections to anarchism were attracted to it  - and I mean aside from the anarchist-curious as it were.


----------



## xenon (Sep 10, 2021)

Anyway, so is this being streamed on Sunday? Can someone post a link or is it just off the main website.

Am genuinely interested in virtually dropping into some talks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2021)

chilango said:


> Tbh we can't even sensibly define "Anarchist Bookfair" never mind anything else.


ostensibly an opportunity for anarchist groups to sell or give out their propaganda, for meetings on subjects such as history, experiences, and theory, and for people to catch with auld friends, anarchist bookfairs are in fact opportunities to play out the most ludicrous personal vendettas


----------



## A380 (Sep 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> ostensibly an opportunity for anarchist groups to sell or give out their propaganda, for meetings on subjects such as history, experiences, and theory, and for people to catch with auld friends, anarchist bookfairs are in fact opportunities to play out the most ludicrous personal vendettas


And for non anarchists to get the chance to experience the joys of the ‘anarchist community’ vicariously for a brief period. 

Not that it’s much different to the rest of the left…


----------



## Benjamin F (Sep 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> ostensibly an opportunity for anarchist groups to sell or give out their propaganda, for meetings on subjects such as history, experiences, and theory, and for people to catch with auld friends, anarchist bookfairs are in fact opportunities to play out the most ludicrous personal vendettas


It's a good point about the internecine rivalries, but can you imagine all the different Leninist groups getting together for their own united bookfair? It'd be impossible. Even social democrats cannot even get on without witchhunting one section or the other (look at the current and past antics inside the Labour Party). Yes, there is friction between some anarcho groups and individuals - and some of that is inevitable, some petty and misguided - but there is much, much more cooperation and certainly more so than in most other parts of the left (radical or otherwise).


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 10, 2021)

To the tune of Ten Green Bottles:

One Trot faction meeting in a hall
One Trot faction meeting in a hall
And if that Trot faction should have a nasty brawl
There'll be two Trot factions meeting in that hall

And so on...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2021)

Benjamin F said:


> It's a good point about the internecine rivalries, but can you imagine all the different Leninist groups getting together for their own united bookfair? It'd be impossible. Even social democrats cannot even get on without witchhunting one section or the other (look at the current and past antics inside the Labour Party). Yes, there is friction between some anarcho groups and individuals - and some of that is inevitable, some petty and misguided - but there is much, much more cooperation and certainly more so than in most other parts of the left (radical or otherwise).


my post wasn't intended to be taken entirely seriously


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 10, 2021)

Benjamin F said:


> It's a good point about the internecine rivalries, but can you imagine all the different Leninist groups getting together for their own united bookfair? It'd be impossible. Even social democrats cannot even get on without witchhunting one section or the other (look at the current and past antics inside the Labour Party). Yes, there is friction between some anarcho groups and individuals - and some of that is inevitable, some petty and misguided - but there is much, much more cooperation and certainly more so than in most other parts of the left (radical or otherwise).



I don't know though, the prospect of an enraged Joti Brar breaking a chair over Chris Bambery's head, after a duplicitous Trot speech, resulting in a windmilling free-for-all in the conference hall, would be enough to get me to at least _consider_ attending a UK pan-Leninist conference


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 10, 2021)

xenon said:


> Anyway, so is this being streamed on Sunday? Can someone post a link or is it just off the main website.
> 
> Am genuinely interested in virtually dropping into some talks.



It's all here I think:

Home


----------



## chilango (Sep 10, 2021)

To be fair, UK Leninists have often gotten together in various united fronts and electoral alliances and the like. With predictable results.

Meanwhile anyone who had the misfortune in the 80s or 90s of trying to enter the building where, say, the NUS or NUT were holding their annual conference would have had a good feel of what a Trot Bookfair would be like...


----------



## xenon (Sep 10, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> It's all here I think:
> 
> Home



Cheers. I'll see how it works on Sunday.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 10, 2021)

Is anyone else here planning to go (on Saturday) or join online (on Sunday)?


----------



## chilango (Sep 10, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Is anyone else here planning to go (on Saturday) or join online (on Sunday)?


No.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Is anyone else here planning to go (on Saturday) or join online (on Sunday)?


I am (Saturday) and it would be nice to meet you. 

I am currently at the mercy of my daughter's timetable for tomorow though so have no idea when I will be around.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Is anyone else here planning to go (on Saturday) or join online (on Sunday)?


Saturday


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 10, 2021)

Lisa McKenzie is doing an event with Whitechapel anarchist on Saturday. Not sure if it’s part of the official bookfair


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 10, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Lisa McKenzie is doing an event with Whitechapel anarchist on Saturday. Not sure if it’s part of the official bookfair


Well that settles it then. If Lisa McKenzie is gonna be there then how could I possibly not attend?

(sarcasm)


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> I don't know though, the prospect of an enraged Joti Brar breaking a chair over Chris Bambery's head, after a duplicitous Trot speech, resulting in a windmilling free-for-all in the conference hall, would be enough to get me to at least _consider_ attending a UK pan-Leninist conference


Makes the annual, and in my case the very welcoming,  booting out Workers Power and the AWL at Marxism seem like small fry . Used to look forward to that highlight in the old days .


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Makes the annual, and in my case the very welcoming,  booting out Workers Power and the AWL at Marxism seem like small fry . Used to look forward to that highlight in the old days .



In my defence I think my scenario was influenced by re-reading _Beating the Fascists_ recently :

_"A right hook planted him in the geraniums..."

"Resistance ended when twelve heavy dinner plates were dropped on his head"_

 etc


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2021)

Also fondly remember putting the RCP stall in the lift at the Polytechnic of North London with one of their members stretched across the trestle table clinging on to their literature


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Also fondly remember putting the RCP stall in the lift at the Polytechnic of North London with one of their members stretched across the trestle table clinging on to their literature



Maximum Effort in The Defence Of The Pamphlets!!!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Also fondly remember putting the RCP stall in the lift at the Polytechnic of North London with one of their members stretched across the trestle table clinging on to their literature


Though perhaps a case of win the battle, lose the war as by the time it was UNL both RCL and IFM had a firm toehold there.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 10, 2021)

Wonder if the rest of Spiked will show.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 10, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am (Saturday) and it would be nice to meet you.
> 
> I am currently at the mercy of my daughter's timetable for tomorow though so have no idea when I will be around.



It would be nice to meet you too 

I'm not able to go on Saturday though. I will check out some of the online stuff on Sunday, after doing my sponsored walk!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2021)

I think the McKenzie/Wright thing is 3pm in Red Lion Square so am assuming not "official"?

Looking like afternoon for me now.


----------



## Benjamin F (Sep 10, 2021)

I'll be joining some of the online events on Sunday, Internet and family permitting.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think the McKenzie/Wright thing is 3pm in Red Lion Square so am assuming not "official"?
> 
> Looking like afternoon for me now.


Prob got the wrong line on something or other


----------



## kenny g (Sep 10, 2021)

Didn't know the cunningham mag had gone online. Well worth a read: https://anarchistbookfair.london/up...gham_Amendment_June_2020_-_Screen_Version.pdf


----------



## TopCat (Sep 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> ostensibly an opportunity for anarchist groups to sell or give out their propaganda, for meetings on subjects such as history, experiences, and theory, and for people to catch with auld friends, anarchist bookfairs are in fact opportunities to play out the most ludicrous personal vendettas


I promise not to flick doner meat into vats  of vegan surprise.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 11, 2021)

I will be at the 3pm meeting. Say hello if you recognise my lanky form.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I will be at the 3pm meeting. Say hello if you recognise my lanky form.


I'll be wearing a pink carnation.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> I'll be wearing a pink carnation.


Carrying a pdf


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 11, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Sep 11, 2021)

Oh, and here's the Sunday schedule:


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 11, 2021)

Stormy Petrel samizdat version for this bookfair


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Decided to go and take MsBedlam too


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

I can see Martin limbering up for the big moment.


----------



## A380 (Sep 11, 2021)

Can we get a ball by ball summary from those Urbs there. For example did the ACG rock up outside?


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Yes


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Martins talking outside about the weirdness of gender politics. Guess he’ll be banned next year.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Martins talking outside about the weirdness of gender politics. Guess he’ll be banned next year.


He's rambling on harmlessly in the corner of the park ..


----------



## chilango (Sep 11, 2021)

No livestream?


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> He's rambling on harmlessly in the corner of the park ..



he’s still going.


----------



## Knotted (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah. Transphobia = “not saying cis enough”.  Got you now.
> 
> Good to know.



I look at the women in my life and I don't see any of them having a fraught relationship with transwomen. Where does this idea come from?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I look at the women in my life and I don't see any of them having a fraught relationship with transwomen. Where does this idea come from?


Outside of very particular activist scenes there’s no such fraughtness.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

A380 said:


> Can we get a ball by ball summary from those Urbs there. For example did the ACG rock up outside?


GlasgowACG was a long way outside. We were in Buchanan Street.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 11, 2021)

Was late - temperamental washing machine, cancelled trains and a slow bus. 

It was nice to be back at Conway Hall. Inside was pretty sparse and sedate compared to the glory / pre-COVID days. There were at least two empty tables I saw. 

Usual crowd I guess. A smattering of punky types but no stench, lol. 

It seemed pretty well organised,tbf. The use of Red Lion Square as an overflow was a nice touch and the little cafe in the park was open and there were a few stalls with gazebos. 

It looked like Rebel London and Haringey Solidarity Group had fly-pitched outside the entrance. I didn’t see ACG or Martin Wright - probably cos I was too late. 

I bumped into one current and one former U75 poster in the square. 

It was alright. I’m not sure I’d be entirely happy if I’d travelled from outside London to it, but the publicity made it clear it would be smaller this year, so…


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 11, 2021)

Here is my haul.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Was late - temperamental washing machine, cancelled trains and a slow bus.


Informal anarchist actions thread --->


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Martins talking outside about the weirdness of gender politics. Guess he’ll be banned next year.


Much enjoyed Martin's speech so I suppose I'll be banned too


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Ah I should have said hello


----------



## JimW (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> GlasgowACG was a long way outside. We were in Buchanan Street.
> 
> View attachment 287850


Where's the option to download the PDF?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

JimW said:


> Where's the option to download the PDF?


The same day? Who do you think we are, International Socialist Alternative?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Much enjoyed Martin's speech so I suppose I'll be banned too


You didn't even say hello


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Much enjoyed Martin's speech so I suppose I'll be banned too


Think there might be an actual speakers corner next time.  Proper free for all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> You didn't even say hello


I should have, sorry


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Martins talking outside about the weirdness of gender politics. Guess he’ll be banned next year.



Here's hoping.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Here's hoping.


Why, what did he say or do?


----------



## nastyned (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Martins talking outside about the weirdness of gender politics. Guess he’ll be banned next year.


He was banned this year. Spoke to him briefly and he'd got the same treatment from the organisers as the ACG. I wonder who else they did this to? The absence of AK, Active and PM Press can't be an oversight.


----------



## LDC (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Outside of very particular activist scenes there’s no such fraughtness.



I dunno, I know 2 women completely outside any political or any counter-cultural scene who've had issues with this. And I've seen an older feminist women consistently given quite nasty grief by 2 younger trans people in a largely apolitical project due to her views on this, which I would say were mildly questioning rather than 'TERF' like. And I don't know that many people! So much as it would be nice it was confined to the weirdness of the activist scene I don't think it's true.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

nastyned said:


> The absence of AK, Active and PM Press can't be an oversight.


No. They were also non invited.


----------



## LDC (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> No. They were also non invited.



Oh shit, I assumed they just didn't do it as they might be busy at other events or something. Probably the 3 biggest publishers of anarchist material here _as well _as one of the 2 anarchist communist organisations in the country non-invited to the biggest anarchist event in the country. FFS.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 11, 2021)

I’m not sure this speculation is helpful. So obviously I will now add to it. 

AK, Active and PM are based outside of London afaik. So they may not have been invited cos of wanting to cut down on travel / COVID exposure, which is something the organisers have said they were doing. Unless anyone knows different.

(We know there was disquiet about the Active banner in the past but they are also under new management now.)

ACG and Martin are based in London (Or have members here rather for ACG). So that is different. Probably there are more though. (Dunno if HSG applied for a stall or not).


----------



## smokedout (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> No. They were also non invited.



I know for a fact this isn't true.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

smokedout said:


> I know for a fact this isn't true.


I’m told it is.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 11, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> (Dunno if HSG applied for a stall or not).


They are also on the blacklist.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m told it is.


Well whoever the told you was wrong


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

It’s kind of weird because everyone I spoke to was very nice and it didn’t feel like there was any bad vibes between those inside and those horrible lot outside


----------



## nastyned (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> It’s kind of weird because everyone I spoke to was very nice and it didn’t feel like there was any bad vibes between those inside and those horrible lot outside


As someone who was dishing out stuff outside I can say there was no agro at all. Well, an anti-mask nutter did get bounced but that was it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

smokedout said:


> Well whoever the told you was wrong


Well, given the Bookfair Collective’s preferred communication methods the only way we can be sure is if the Angry Workers offer to share a stall with them.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 11, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Here is my haul.
> 
> View attachment 287858


Who published the two on the right? Nice to see that the CWO are primmies now, anyway. 

As far as AK/Active/PM go, it was my understanding that Rhyddical had said that they weren't banned:


Rhyddical said:


> My understanding is that it's a case of capacity and covid-19 things as it is for certain other ommisions, it's a shame we wont have proper stalls for AK and Active etc tho I think their stuff will be on tables.
> 
> Stalls will also be smaller this year due for much the same reason and stall holders limited to 2 per table.
> 
> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


I would also guess the wobs weren't there for "innocent", non-beef-related reasons, but then idk how London or its bookfairs work.


----------



## andysays (Sep 11, 2021)

smokedout said:


> Well whoever the told you was wrong


Just to be clear, are you saying that you have info from an authoritative (sic) source (presumably the organisers or someone close to them) that AK, Active and PM Press *were* all invited?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

An authority on organised anarchy.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I don't think any organisation which is Transpobic by it's nature applied for a stall, that would be weird.


hitmouse Thanks for reminding me of this confirmation.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> organised anarchy.


_Mutters: That’s what the A in an O symbol stands for_.


----------



## LDC (Sep 11, 2021)

Asked for a stall but were declined and told why? Or like the ACG was not not-invited, but when they asked for a stall and then were just not responded to, and then found out second hand from other group that they weren't welcome. That kind of mature and comradely not-invited or another kind?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 11, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Who published the two on the right? Nice to see that the CWO are primmies now, anyway.


Dunno, but they were both free from the same stall. One of them is a bunch of texts translated from German that looks a bit mad and insurrectionary.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 11, 2021)

Lots were noticible by their absence, some proper bookfair stalwarts of decades were not there. 
It was nice to see old pals and Martin did his bit on my bench so good. Missed Ian Bone’s speech. Apparently at the same time as Martin’s. The on off feud continues. It’s been decades. 
Not much else to say other than it was thirty eight years ago I attended my first bookfair at Conway Hall. Fair play for providing it free to the organisers.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> _Mutters: That’s what the A in an O symbol stands for_.


_"..a société cherche l'ordre dans l'anarchie."_

Order?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Order?


A half pizza crunch supper and a diet Irn Bru please.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> A half pizza crunch supper and a diet Irn Bru please.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2021)

Ordure, ordure


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 287897


I SAID A HALF PIZZA CRUNCH…


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

About my level after a few Bishops


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I will be at the 3pm meeting. Say hello if you recognise my lanky form.



I asked the lankiest person I could see there if they were TopCat and they said "Is that something on the internet" and looked at me like I'd been smoking the chronic.


----------



## Sue (Sep 11, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> I asked the lankiest person I could see there if they were TopCar and they said "Is that something on the internet" and looked at me like I'd been smoking the chronic.


Well played TopCat, well played...


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 11, 2021)

Oh, and looks like Active Distribution have their own bookfair happening in Bristol in October:


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Ms Bedlam had some left over cakes from work whcih she gave to the lovely people selling tea/coffee. Apparently the cakes went quickly.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

The people selling Lumpen were very well spoken. That gave me a chuckle.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ms Bedlam had some left over cakes from work whcih she gave to the lovely people selling tea/coffee. Apparently the cakes went quickly.


The bacon and black pudding brownies were particularly well received 😎


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ms Bedlam had some left over cakes from work whcih she gave to the lovely people selling tea/coffee. Apparently the cakes went quickly.


If only there was some figure of speech which could express how quickly they sold.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If only there was some figure of speech which could express how quickly they sold.


Hot take!


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 11, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If only there was some figure of speech which could express how quickly they sold.


Like shit off a shovel


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 11, 2021)

Deleted cos too personal.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 11, 2021)

Fucking hell. Sorry to hear all of that.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 11, 2021)

Grim. Sorry bill


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 12, 2021)

Cheers.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

If I picked it up wrong about AK/PM/Active, then I apologise for passing on faulty info.

This kind of thing would be prevented by open and honest communication between comrades though.  Which is what anarchists are supposed to believe in.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2021)




----------



## LDC (Sep 12, 2021)

Irrespective of the issues discussed above I've just been looking through the Bookfair Twitter account, and it really does give the impression of a much more firmly subcultural thing than other years. Lots of music stuff, some of the language just reads weirdly to me (fully aware it's maybe a youth thing a bit), and the tone of many of the stalls, talks, and tweets seem much more scene-ey than 2017 and before. Was it like that there at the Bookfair itself, or is it just someone tweeting giving that impression?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Irrespective of the issues discussed above I've just been looking through the Bookfair Twitter account, and it really does give the impression of a much more firmly subcultural thing than other years. Lots of music stuff, some of the language just reads weirdly to me (fully aware it's maybe a youth thing a bit), and the tone of many of the stalls, talks, and tweets seem much more scene-ey than 2017 and before. Was it like that there at the Bookfair itself, or is it just someone tweeting giving that impression?


I haven’t looked through the Bookfair Twitter feed, but it’s certainly the case that I don’t understand a lot of what goes on in young person Twitter.  I had to unfollow a young ACG comrade because it was just a flood of incomprehensible (to me) references, language and inexplicable memes.  He’s a lovely guy, but I couldn’t fathom anything he was on about.  And there was a lot of it.

It’s a bit of a problem if people can’t get past the codes.


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 12, 2021)

It was always very scene-ey, though anarchist groups had a good presence. Still, it does look as though this one has outdone itself with all things weird and "bohemian" while banning yer actual anarchists.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

While I’m here, a while back somebody posted this at me. Several people liked it.  I didn’t respond because I had no idea what it meant.  At first I thought it was just random. But then it got likes.  Anyone know what the message was?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper seems to know.  I literally have no idea.


----------



## LDC (Sep 12, 2021)

No, that tweet makes absolutely no sense to me. The nearest I can get is that it's what we probably look like trying to understand it.

I was generally laughing at our collective bafflement at the youngsters of today and their chosen ways of communicating.

I do know it's one of those meme things, or me-me things as I like to call them.

Given I'm in my 40s I'm a bit terrified of how everything is going to seem to us in another 30 years.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 12, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> While I’m here, a while back somebody posted this at me. Several people liked it.  I didn’t respond because I had no idea what it meant.  At first I thought it was just random. But then it got likes.  Anyone know what the message was?
> 
> View attachment 287987


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> View attachment 287988


The world is weird.


----------



## LDC (Sep 12, 2021)

That actually makes it no clearer at all. Are you in your 20s or something hitmouse?  Write it in a fucking sentence for god's sake!


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 12, 2021)

I believe the technical term for that image is a "soy wojak", but I also wouldn't really recommend learning anything more about the world of soy wojaks than you absolutely have to really.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That actually makes it no clearer at all. Are you in your 20s or something hitmouse?  Write it in a fucking sentence for god's sake!


It may well turn out that this is what’s been happening between the Bookfair and the ACG trying to work out what the other is saying and getting it wrong.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I believe the technical term for that image is a "soy wojak", but I also wouldn't really recommend learning anything more about the world of soy wojaks than you absolutely have to really.


What I have to learn is nothing at all. I’m just as happy being baffled.


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 12, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> While I’m here, a while back somebody posted this at me. Several people liked it.  I didn’t respond because I had no idea what it meant.  At first I thought it was just random. But then it got likes.  Anyone know what the message was?
> 
> View attachment 287987


I'd hazard a guess that it's a jab at angry white older men with glasses, but you'd have to be part of the in-crowd to know for sure. That's the thing about a lot of me-mes (thanks LynnDoyleCooper), they're in-jokes targeting out-groups, so mainly worthless and reactionary.


----------



## LDC (Sep 12, 2021)

_"What was that about our stall Bookfair collective? Can you say it again and just a little bit slower please?"_


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> angry white older men with glasses,


_Hear the song of my people_. As the youngsters say.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 12, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Sep 12, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I'd hazard a guess that it's a jab at angry white older men with glasses, but you'd have to be part of the in-crowd to know for sure. That's the thing about a lot of me-mes (thanks LynnDoyleCooper), they're in-jokes targeting out-groups, so mainly worthless and reactionary.


It's more often used as an image by people on the fashy/alt-right end of things to mock people who they see as not living up to proper standards of masculinity. But is made more confusing by the fact that lots of things start out in that space and then get used more broadly (at least, more broadly within the world of insular incomprehensible internet subcultures) by people who are being ironic, or just copying it without putting much thought into it, or whatever.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

It’s funny because I wouldn’t qualify as “white” in some circles, and some histories.  I recently overheard a woman in a coffee shop saying she’d been away from Glasgow 20 years and the biggest change she’d noticed was “middle-class Catholics”. (Meaning people of Irish descent).  The tone of voice said “just imagine!”


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 12, 2021)

I was in Hyndland.


----------



## rich! (Sep 13, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I’m not sure this speculation is helpful. So obviously I will now add to it.
> 
> AK, Active and PM are based outside of London afaik. So they may not have been invited cos of wanting to cut down on travel / COVID exposure, which is something the organisers have said they were doing. Unless anyone knows different.
> 
> ...



just to mention that HSG doubled down on backing Helen after 2017, so I wouldn't expect them to have bothered applying.

There was a strong "don't come from far away because COVID" thing going on, and of course a lot of other events on Saturday, and a lot of the traditional stalls took that on board. Still a great stall turnout for what was after all a very small venue. And a really high level of sane mask wearing.

Personally - I had an awesome time even without Veggies, and that's saying something. 

Conway Hall is a lovely small venue, the space in the square was excellent, the usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd immediately outside the door did a lovely trade in everything they wanted to, and the weather played a blinder.


----------



## rich! (Sep 13, 2021)

nastyned said:


> As someone who was dishing out stuff outside I can say there was no agro at all. Well, an anti-mask nutter did get bounced but that was it.


was that the very drunk comrade who was sitting on a bench ranting on the phone about being grassed up for not wearing a mask inside?


----------



## nastyned (Sep 14, 2021)

rich! said:


> the usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd immediately outside the door


The usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd i.e. The SPGB and ICC didn't turn up. Though for reasons I've never understood the CWO who are more openly Bolshevik than the ICC were allowed to have a stall, as they were at the old bookfair. 

The people immediately outside the door were from the ACG who were in fact banned from having a stall or their literature on other people's stalls. The ACG didn't exist when the last bookfair was held so can hardly be called the usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd.

And the political stall out the front had old bookfair organisers on it, so again, definitely not the usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd.

Due to the organisers vow of silence we can't be certain which other groups and individuals were banned but I find it hard to believe that AK, Active and PM Press were all absent from a big anarchist bookfair because they were a bit busy that day.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2021)

nastyned said:


> The ACG didn't exist when the last bookfair was held


Indeed. Nor did it until February 2018.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2021)

rich! said:


> just to mention that HSG doubled down on backing Helen after 2017


In what way? Can you point me to something they wrote that you’re getting this from?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2021)

nastyned said:


> The usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd i.e. The SPGB and ICC didn't turn up.


Jesus, sounds like this bookfair really wasn't the same if it didn't have the SPGB and ICC standing outside. I think the only time I've ever seen the ICC in the flesh was outside a bookfair.


> And the political stall out the front had old bookfair organisers on it, so again, definitely not the usual "BANNED FROM THE BOOKFAIR" crowd.


Not that it really matters I suppose, but was this on the ACG stall, or was there a different one?


----------



## BristolEcho (Sep 14, 2021)

Who are the ICC and SPGB?


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 14, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> Who are the ICC and SPGB?



Socialist Party of Great Britain and, er, the international cricket council


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 14, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> Who are the ICC and SPGB?











						International Communist Current - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				












						Socialist Party of Great Britain - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## BristolEcho (Sep 14, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> International Communist Current - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers!


----------



## nastyned (Sep 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Not that it really matters I suppose, but was this on the ACG stall, or was there a different one?


That was the Rebel City stall: (no title)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> Who are the ICC and SPGB?


When I was a youth I wrote to the various groups listed in the back of the syndicalist Tintin pastiche, _Breaking Free. _The ones which wrote back were Class War (loads of free stuff - back issues, stickers, _The Heavy Stuff_, _Unfinished Business_); the ACF (an _Organise!,_ some of those dayglo orange stickers); and the ICC (~quarter million closely typed words with no pictures across various position documents, manifestos, platforms and pamphlets, and NO STICKERS).

Make of that what you will.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Socialist Party of Great Britain and, er, the international cricket council


They also run a big convention centre in Birmingham and prosecute war criminals, they're a busy bunch.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2021)

nastyned said:


> That was the Rebel City stall: (no title)


Hang on a second...


Rhyddical said:


> View attachment 285952


Did the Rebel City lot get a stall booked, have it advertised as part of the official bookfair material, then find their stall was un-booked? The bloody thing's been over for days now and I'm still no closer to understanding their bookings policy.


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> When I was a youth I wrote to the various groups listed in the back of the syndicalist Tintin pastiche, _Breaking Free. _The ones which wrote back were Class War (loads of free stuff - back issues, stickers, _The Heavy Stuff_, _Unfinished Business_); the ACF (an _Organise!,_ some of those dayglo orange stickers); and the ICC (~quarter million closely typed words with no pictures across various position documents, manifestos, platforms and pamphlets, and NO STICKERS).
> 
> Make of that what you will.



This is you and I claim my five pounds. (From here.)


----------



## rich! (Sep 14, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> In what way? Can you point me to something they wrote that you’re getting this from?


It's on their mailing list. I'm not going to repost it here because I don't know if it's publicly archived.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2021)

imposs1904 said:


> This is you and I claim my five pounds. (From here.)
> 
> View attachment 288383


Busted ☹️


----------



## nastyned (Sep 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Hang on a second...
> 
> Did the Rebel City lot get a stall booked, have it advertised as part of the official bookfair material, then find their stall was un-booked? The bloody thing's been over for days now and I'm still no closer to understanding their bookings policy.


Rebel City came out in solidarity with the ACG.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 14, 2021)

imposs1904 said:


> This is you and I claim my five pounds. (From here.)
> 
> View attachment 288383


A picture in World Revolution! Further evidence of the degeneration of the ICC.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2021)

imposs1904 said:


> This is you and I claim my five pounds. (From here.)
> 
> View attachment 288383


I feel like this could be an exceptionally niche Viz joke, maybe from their series of specialist fag adverts:



Government Health Warning: Smoking Leftcom Fags may lead to irreversible decadence.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2021)

Just noticed that paper advertises a feature on "ICC intervention in web forums" on page 2, bless them.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just noticed that paper advertises a feature on "ICC intervention in web forums" on page 2, bless them.


Yes I remember that issue there was a mention of Urban75 but the main focus was on their valiant efforts on the fields of Libcom.


----------



## A380 (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> When I was a youth I wrote to the various groups listed in the back of the syndicalist Tintin pastiche, _Breaking Free. _The ones which wrote back were Class War (loads of free stuff - back issues, stickers, _The Heavy Stuff_, _Unfinished Business_); the ACF (an _Organise!,_ some of those dayglo orange stickers); and the ICC (~quarter million closely typed words with no pictures across various position documents, manifestos, platforms and pamphlets, and NO STICKERS).
> 
> Make of that what you will.



I love that book.


----------



## Sue (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> When I was a youth I wrote to the various groups listed in the back of the syndicalist Tintin pastiche, _Breaking Free. _The ones which wrote back were Class War (loads of free stuff - back issues, stickers, _The Heavy Stuff_, _Unfinished Business_); the ACF (an _Organise!,_ some of those dayglo orange stickers); and the ICC (~quarter million closely typed words with no pictures across various position documents, manifestos, platforms and pamphlets, and NO STICKERS).
> 
> Make of that what you will.


It's a slippery slope. You start off as a callow youth writing to dubious political groups and you end up condemned to wandering Urban P&P. FOREVER.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> their valiant efforts on the fields of Libcom.


I don't think that name change will last, mark my words


----------



## nogojones (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> When I was a youth I wrote to the various groups listed in the back of the syndicalist Tintin pastiche, _Breaking Free. _The ones which wrote back were Class War (loads of free stuff - back issues, stickers, _The Heavy Stuff_, _Unfinished Business_); the ACF (an _Organise!,_ some of those dayglo orange stickers); and the ICC (~quarter million closely typed words with no pictures across various position documents, manifestos, platforms and pamphlets, and NO STICKERS).
> 
> Make of that what you will.


I did something similar as a youth and got loads of cool shit from all sorts. The one that stood out though was the New Communist Party who turned up on my doorstep on New Years fucking day. I'm shocked they didn't bring a tank


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I did something similar as a youth and got loads of cool shit from all sorts. The one that stood out though was the New Communist Party who turned up on my doorstep on New Years fucking day. I'm shocked they didn't bring a tank


Is that the lot embroiled in all sorts of shady shenanigans?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> When I was a youth I wrote to the various groups listed in the back of the syndicalist Tintin pastiche, _Breaking Free. _The ones which wrote back were Class War (loads of free stuff - back issues, stickers, _The Heavy Stuff_, _Unfinished Business_); the ACF (an _Organise!,_ some of those dayglo orange stickers); and the ICC (~quarter million closely typed words with no pictures across various position documents, manifestos, platforms and pamphlets, and NO STICKERS).
> 
> Make of that what you will.


Thinking about it, I reckon we've solved the mystery of why the CWO get to have a stall but the other leftcoms don't:


----------



## nogojones (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is that the lot embroiled in all sorts of shady shenanigans?


I'm not sure, it was like 30 something years ago and they seemed like the only real hardcore Stalinists knocking about back then. I hid behind the sofa. For me, New Years day has never been a good day for chatting shit about Brezhnevs deviations


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I did something similar as a youth and got loads of cool shit from all sorts. The one that stood out though was the New Communist Party who turned up on my doorstep on New Years fucking day. I'm shocked they didn't bring a tank


Bet they parked it round the corner


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is that the lot embroiled in all sorts of shady shenanigans?


Ah yes, it was something I read in _NFTB_ and/or _Green Anarchist_, as mentioned here:



			https://www.ainfos.ca/00/dec/ainfos00351.html
		


...Featuring Operation Washington, the Anarchist Bookfair & rival Anarchist Heretics' Fair, Alternative Green, NCP, CPGB, Searchlight, Terry Liddle, Lady Athena McHugh and a cast of thousands!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about it, I reckon we've solved the mystery of why the CWO get to have a stall but the other leftcoms don't:



STICKERS WIN WARS 👍


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 14, 2021)

To be fair on the CWO,  they're generally nice and approachable while the ICC are not (though even the ICC are more approachable than they used to be).


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 15, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Ah yes, it was something I read in _NFTB_ and/or _Green Anarchist_, as mentioned here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Troy Southgate as well was in there somewhere. It's been a while since I read that. Larry really needs to make NFTB available as PDFs for sale I'd buy the entire run again.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 15, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Troy Southgate as well was in there somewhere. It's been a while since I read that. Larry really needs to make NFTB available as PDFs for sale I'd buy the entire run again.


Maybe the ACG tech team could assist 😐


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 16, 2021)

AK, PM, Active, none of these groups were banned, far from it. Anyone who says this to you is a liar, or they are being lied to.
Further, none of the people who decided to pitch up outside or rant in park were banned, they were all more than wlecome to come into bookfair, their chose not to, probably I suspect, because it would hurt they facade of exclusion or about how "Anarchism is liberal / hates the working class now" or whatever it was M was talking about in the park.

The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter. Sure, how and when, sometimes wasn't ideal, but everyone involved knows why. I'm sorry the thread feels great offence at not being kept in the loop, but we've had enough public spats with the terfs and anti-mask wallies to bother (see previous post re "holy heck I missed a chunk of thread where you all thought I was ignoring you, sorry about that"). 

I replied immediately to the two people who DM'd me and I thank them for holding their tongue, even as the rest of the thread meandered onwards. these organisations would be best to send messages and discuss things privately, not have public bunfights, I know you all miss wetherspoons but come on, space and place.

Various people pitched up outside, held a to do in the park etc  Cool, Bookfair bother 'em at all, they did an Anarchy and from what I hear enjoyed a day out in the sun. I hope now fantastical depictions of "Red Guard" and "proffessional security services" policing anarchism can be put to bed, what happens in 2022 if up to others, I would suggest not leaving it to a couple weeks before Bookfair 2022 to get in contact and even if you don't remember, no one is banned (other than the obvious fash etc) and comrades were always welcome to come inside, even the actually terfy ones or those that think "Anarchists have abandoned the working class", come inside, maybe you'll realise that's bullshit,  you might even realise that the Anarkiddies aint your enemy.

Anyways 'till next year and the ressurrection of the thread! What will the drama be about then? I can't wait. x


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 16, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Anyone who says this to you is a liar, or they are being lied to.


Or has made a mistake, misheard or picked it up wrong.  We need to step away from this polarisation between angels or devils.


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Or has made a mistake, misheard or picked it up wrong.  We need to step away from this polarisation between angels or devils.


Maybe you are a better person than I, more willing to see the grey space and not take a polarised position, However having now heard it from more than one source, someones telling fibs on purpose and those who are innocently mistaken probably know who it is x  I tend to take a very sour opinion of such misnfo, especially when it is deliberate.

Bah ok, maybe someone "picked it up wrong" or what not,well fair, I implore those who may have picked it up wrong or who innocently shared such a rumour to do their best to retract it x


----------



## Sue (Sep 16, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> AK, PM, Active, none of these groups were banned, far from it. Anyone who says this to you is a liar, or they are being lied to.


And the ACG?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> And the ACG?


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 16, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Maybe you are a better person than I, more willing to see the grey space and not take a polarised position, However having now heard it from more than one source, someones telling fibs on purpose and those who are innocently mistaken probably know who it is x  I tend to take a very sour opinion of such misnfo, especially when it is deliberate.
> 
> Bah ok, maybe someone "picked it up wrong" or what not,well fair, I implore those who may have picked it up wrong or who innocently shared such a rumour to do their best to retract it x


One of the things that happens when communication isn’t clear and open is that misunderstandings occur.


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## andysays (Sep 16, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> AK, PM, Active, none of these groups were banned, far from it. Anyone who says this to you is a liar, or they are being lied to.
> Further, none of the people who decided to pitch up outside or rant in park were banned, they were all more than wlecome to come into bookfair, their chose not to, probably I suspect, because it would hurt they facade of exclusion or about how "Anarchism is liberal / hates the working class now" or whatever it was M was talking about in the park.
> 
> The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter. I'm sorry the thread feels great offence at not being kept in the loop, but we've had enough public spats with the terfs and anti-mask wallies to bother (see previous post re "holy heck I missed a chunk of thread where you all thought I was ignoring you, sorry x"). I replied immediately to the two people who DM'd me and I thank them for holding their tongue, even as the rest of the thread meandered onwards.
> ...


So are you saying that they  were all actually invited?


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## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2021)

Well this is all as clear as mud.


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## LDC (Sep 16, 2021)

Rhyddical you really need to have a look at how you communicate; the stuff you've written on here is often contradictory, vague, really confusing, and comes across as being either avoidant or unable to answer simple questions, and it's really frustrating and I think it's also totally inflamed the situation. Your last long post on here a few above this one just reads like a comic book teenage anarchist or someone that's drunk or a bit unstable tbh.


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## JimW (Sep 16, 2021)

"Disinclined to host" is a bit PR speak as well. How I was banned, banned BANNED from the Bookfair --- and they were TOO AFRAID to say so!!!


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## hitmouse (Sep 16, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> AK, PM, Active, none of these groups were banned, far from it. Anyone who says this to you is a liar, or they are being lied to.
> Further, none of the people who decided to pitch up outside or rant in park were *banned*, they were all more than *wlecome to come into bookfair, their chose not to*,


I know and you know that there is a difference between "told you cannot enter the bookfair" and "told you cannot host a stall at the bookfair".  If you're claiming that the people who were told they couldn't host a stall weren't banned because they were allowed to enter, then... that's one way you can use language if you want to, I suppose, but it seems a bit pointless.
Furthermore, I think we all know that it's not entirely unknown for political disputes to escalate into physical confrontations around bookfairs, even if the bookfair organisers don't get involved in the confrontation themselves. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can imagine people who were close to a controversy might be put off going inside on those grounds. Although that's just me, maybe other people are harder and more courageous than me.


Rhyddical said:


> The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter.


I mean, the fact that you're unwilling to say the name of a particular organisation as if they were the bleedin' Candyman/Voldemort/Haman or whatever feels not entirely reassuring here. I don't suppose you'd be inclined to tell us when it is that the ACG were told that you felt disinclined to host them?


Rhyddical said:


> no one is banned (other than the obvious fash etc) and comrades were always welcome to come inside, even the actually terfy ones


Again, repeating myself here, but 1) "no one is banned" is a bit disingenuous if there's some people who you're "disinclined to host", and 2) I would imagine that terfy types at an anarchist bookfair, no matter how officially "welcome" they are, might be in danger of getting a slap. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, I think reactionaries at a bookfair should be vigourously challenged, but again, in a situation where people have been publicly described as having terf sympathies might be a bit skeptical about how warm a welcome they'd get. Especially at a bookfair whose organisers seem unwilling to acknowledge their existence.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 16, 2021)

Also there is a difference between being “welcome to come inside” as an individual or group of individuals - and being able to have a stall. Obviously.


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## Rhyddical (Sep 16, 2021)

I thought we covered this last year, I use corny lingo, talk funny and look good in hi vis. 
I appreciate that my manner can be stilted and how everything played out a bit difficult but it is what it is, I'm very clearly not talking about certain things and as I'm previously said I'm not going into the reasoning. Apologies if it's frustrating but it is what it is. Look, I'm not gunna keep this plate spinning or endlessly debate the same tired points, everyone whose involved knows the score in these orgs and others.

It's done with now and we've a year of comradely discussion to ensure all the pages are the same don't we.

I'm probably not gunna check this again till August next year x Thanks to those that came, lovely to see/meet some of you x See you at Manc/Bristol x


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## Sue (Sep 16, 2021)

At least have the balls to be honest instead of weasling about. Spineless and slippery.


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## kabbes (Sep 16, 2021)

I don’t know anything about this bookfair malarkey but one thing that is clear is that this Rhyddical chap is a bit of a dick.


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## Serge Forward (Sep 17, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter.


You lying cunt.


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## Wilf (Sep 17, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I thought we covered this last year, I use corny lingo, talk funny and look good in hi vis.
> I appreciate that my manner can be stilted and how everything played out a bit difficult but it is what it is, I'm very clearly not talking about certain things and as I'm previously said I'm not going into the reasoning. Apologies if it's frustrating but it is what it is. Look, I'm not gunna keep this plate spinning or endlessly debate the same tired points, everyone whose involved knows the score in these orgs and others.
> 
> It's done with now and we've a year of comradely discussion to ensure all the pages are the same don't we.
> ...


What you describe as 'the same tired points' involves your refusal to even respond to a group representing one of the key strands of British anarchism.  Whatever your 'reasons, we aren't telling you', you seem to think that trumps the basic requirements of organising an event - communicating with the people who respond to your request for stall applications.  You might not want to talk to the ACG, you might not want to put the reasons for your refusal into words, but you haven't got a choice. Grown ups sometimes have to do things they don't like doing.


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## andysays (Sep 17, 2021)

Worth reminding ourselves of this?



LDN Bookfair said:


> Just wanted to say, Rhyddical in their comments here do not represent the Anarchist Bookfair in London collective and it talking in a personal capacity only. In fact, this admin thinks that Rhyddical is making a total arse of themselves here. But that's their choice really.


But even if they are talking in a personal capacity only, their evasive gibberish really doesn't reflect well on the whole collective, especially as the evasiveness, if not necessarily the gibberish, seems to be a feature of the whole collective's approach to who's allowed to have a stall and why.


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## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2021)

Wilf said:


> What you describe as 'the same tired points' involves your refusal to even respond to a group representing one of the key strands of British anarchism.  Whatever your 'reasons, we aren't telling you', you seem to think that trumps the basic requirements of organising an event - communicating with the people who respond to your request for stall applications.  You might not want to talk to the ACG, you might not want to put the reasons for your refusal into words, but you haven't got a choice. Grown ups sometimes have to do things they don't like doing.


I mean, as of Rhyddical's latest set of posts, the line has shifted, apparently now the bookfair collective has always been talking to the ACG:


Rhyddical said:


> The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter.


If what they're suggesting here is true and the Bookfair collective has actually been responding to all enquiries in a prompt and efficient fashion and the communications secretary of the ACG had just decided, for reasons unknown, to stage a massive prank on the rest of their organisation, and the rest of us by extension, that would be an amazing twist ending to the thread. But it seems like if we request anything to even vaguely support that claim, it'll turn back into one of those certain things that isn't being talked about for certain reasons.


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## kenny g (Sep 17, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I thought we covered this last year, I use corny lingo, talk funny and look good in hi vis.


You have taken disingenuousness to a new level. Politics should not be about using words to repeatedly avoid any  points under discussion. It happens in Westminster but is shameful when attempted with comrades.


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## LDC (Sep 17, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> ...they did an Anarchy and ...  you might even realise that the Anarkiddies aint your enemy.




__


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## danny la rouge (Sep 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If what they're suggesting here is true and the Bookfair collective has actually been responding to all enquiries in a prompt and efficient fashion and the communications secretary of the ACG had just decided, for reasons unknown, to stage a massive prank on the rest of their organisation, and the rest of us by extension, that would be an amazing twist ending to the thread.


I’ve no idea what Rhyddical is on about. Perhaps he’s picked something up wrong, because another member of the Collective confirmed to me that the Collective had a policy of not talking to the ACG.  

That account was a little confused, as it gave as a reason an event that took place _after_ our approaches were blanked.  But it was at least a clear response to my query.  It was a private message but should it be necessary, if the person who sent me it allows, I will make it public. 

I don’t know Rhyddical, but I do know our national secretary and also the comrade who thrice emailed the Bookfair Collective to request a stall and as a further attempt filled in the web form.  If they say there were no responses to these approaches, then there were no responses.  It’s not credible to suggest otherwise.

The shifting sands of the case against the ACG have been very hard to follow. It’s not an exaggeration to call it Kafka-esque.  Taken as a whole, it does no credit to whatever cause it is that the Bookfair Collective believe they are defending.

On the one hand, they can organise whatever events they like and have at them whomsoever they like, but if they believe the ACG not to have a place in the same movement they occupy, then they do need to have the courage of their convictions to say so, and say it publicly. 

It remains the case that the only official response we had was via the Angry Workers. (Although of course we’d worked out the answer by then).

Since Rhyddical has confirmed that he does not think the ACG is transphobic, we are left with two possibilities.

1. The Bookfair collective are “couplers” when it comes to dealing with controversial issues. (I’m using the language of a recent thread on Urban which looked at the difference between a decoupler or a coupler).

The controversy in the 2017 Bookfair was according to one side about _people who wanted to distribute transphobic literature_.  According to those who went on to become the founders of the ACG, it was about _the way in which an erstwhile comrade was treated_.

Those proto-ACG members did not defend Helen Steel’s views. Not as her views stood then, and certainly not in the form they subsequently developed into.  What they objected to was the way the disagreement was handled.  Added to this was a banner bearing a crude anti religious slogan, which the proto-ACG members did not think was very sophisticated but which they nevertheless thought should not have been dealt with the way it was, using the terms used against it.

Couplers find those sorts of distinctions difficult, and so would come to think of the proto-ACG members as defending Helen’s views and defending the views expressed on the banner.

Add into this the desire we have already seen to polarise people into _goodies of good intent_ and _baddies of bad intent_ and we have ourselves a misunderstanding that will take years to untangle, if ever.

I would add here that this disagreement was prior to the existence of the ACG, and involved only a small minority of the current membership.  The whole membership is therefore being judged on an incident that took place before the organisation existed and in which most of us were not involved.

But it has led to the ACG being slandered as “transphobic”.  These rumours get back to us, so we know they are about.  They are unacceptable and must cease. 

2. The alleged doxxing.  First, this took place _after_ the failure of the Bookfair Collective to respond to the ACG, so it cannot be a _reason_ for the lack of response.

Secondly, it revealed no details not already in the public domain. It only connected the names of online accounts.  No real life address was revealed.

Thirdly, it was not carried out by or with the knowledge of the ACG.  We do not know who this was, nor did we authorise it.


If the Bookfair Collective wish to clear up any of this, they could start by making public what their member Rhyddical has said on this thread: that they do not believe the ACG to be transphobic.  That would be an honourable goodwill gesture.

Otherwise I’m afraid it’s clear that what they want is continued confusion and speculation. And if that is the case, I don’t see why the ACG should bother trying to communicate.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

I


danny la rouge said:


> I’ve no idea what Rhyddical is on about. Perhaps he’s picked something up wrong, because another member of the Collective confirmed to me that the Collective had a policy of not talking to the ACG.
> 
> That account was a little confused, as it gave as a reason an event that took place _after_ our approaches were blanked.  But it was at least a clear response to my query.  It was a private message but should it be necessary, if the person who sent me it allows, I will make it public.
> 
> ...


I think it's appalling that the bf organisers set themselves up as arbiters of what's acceptable in the anarchist movement and even worse that they do it in an idiosyncratic and half-arsed way. I don't know what many attendees or groups present in 2017 or indeed 2021 think of trans people or terfs. Or climate change or Grimsby's chances of returning to the football league. It's not really up to the organisers to select one issue and judge people on that (and then as in the case of the ACG get it so egregiously wrong). It's for them to offer a space to people who identify as anarchists - not those who are identified by the organisers as anarchists. It's not for them to promote or censor views or to impose unspoken conditions.


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## kabbes (Sep 17, 2021)

“Join your local anarchist group and spend your time untangling long running beefs with other anarchist groups relating to subjects you have no interest in and involving people you don’t know!  Yes, it’s a Man’s/Woman’s/Non-binary person’s life in your local anarchist group!”


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## Wilf (Sep 17, 2021)

What pisses me off is the superior tone taken by Rhyddical and also LDN Bookfair: 'oh look at you people yapping on page after page... I may not comment till next year'.  The bottom line is you've deemed the ACG transphobic, it seems, but haven't got the guts to say that in public or to the movement.  And the London Bookfair is about the wider movement, not just the personal preferences of the organisers,


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## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think it's appalling that the bf organisers set themselves up as arbiters of what's acceptable in the anarchist movement and even worse that they do it in an idiosyncratic and half-arsed way. I don't know what many attendees or groups present in 2017 or indeed 2021 think of trans people or terfs. Or climate change or Grimsby's chances of returning to the football league. It's not really up to the organisers to select one issue and judge people on that (and then as in the case of the ACG get it so egregiously wrong). It's for them to offer a space to people who identify as anarchists - not those who are identified by the organisers as anarchists. It's not for them to promote or censor views or to impose unspoken conditions.


In all fairness to the organisers, maybe this is my platformist side coming out, but I'm perfectly happy for the bookfair organisers to decide who they want at their bookfair, on whatever grounds they see fit, freedom of association and all that. But this weird silence/denial that any decisions have been made/suddenly claiming that they'd been communicating with people all along and any communication problems must be someone else's fault is not a good or responsible way of doing that.


Wilf said:


> What pisses me off is the superior tone taken by Rhyddical and also LDN Bookfair: 'oh look at you people yapping on page after page... I may not comment till next year'.  The bottom line is you've deemed the ACG transphobic, it seems, but haven't got the guts to say that in public or to the movement.


Yeah, it is all a bit "can you stop speculating so much?" "sure, fine, just explain what you're doing and we won't need to speculate anymore" "no. <3 we're not going to tell you anything. Now will you stop speculating?"


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## LDC (Sep 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> In all fairness to the organisers, maybe this is my platformist side coming out, but I'm perfectly happy for the bookfair organisers to decide who they want at their bookfair, on whatever grounds they see fit, freedom of association and all that.



In some ways, that'd be fair enough if a few people put a Bookfair on in their town or city - although still pretty weird and they'd need to explain if they excluded established anarchist groups. But the London one, especially as you are taking on the long history and accumulated hard work put into the other events over decades, is tied to a movement and various groups whether the organisers like it (or them) or not. And it's fucking arrogant, individualist, and bad political form to just decide established anarchist groups aren't welcome (or whatever bollocks term that's been used).


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## Wilf (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In some ways, yeah it'd be fair enough if a few people put a Bookfair on in their town/city. But the London one, especially as you are taking on the decades long history and accumulated hard work put into the other event, is tied to a movement and various groups whether the organisers like it (or them) or not. And it's fucking arrogant, individualist, and bad political form to just decide established anarchist groups aren't welcome (or whatever bollocks term that's been used).


This. Space and Covid restrictions aside I'd have thought you should be accepting all applications for tables or workshops from established groups or campaigns that fit within the broad parameters.  Plenty of debatable and marginal cases, but the ACG most definitely isn't one of them.  Excluding an established group on an (apparent) allegation of transphobia is a significant departure and absolutely demands the organisers publish their reasons. 

The organisers seem stuck with that decision now and completely unwilling to ease their way out or offer any kind of dialogue.  It's a pretty weird corner they've backed themselves into.


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## JimW (Sep 17, 2021)

It was barely ever a movement but this takes its even more firmly in the direction of a scene. Cheers, tossers.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> In all fairness to the organisers, maybe this is my platformist side coming out, but I'm perfectly happy for the bookfair organisers to decide who they want at their bookfair, on whatever grounds they see fit, freedom of association and all that. But this weird silence/denial that any decisions have been made/suddenly claiming that they'd been communicating with people all along and any communication problems must be someone else's fault is not a good or responsible way of doing that.


It's my view that people who identify as anarchists should be allowed a stall. When I was in cw we made the majority of our annual income at the bf, and denying groups a stall even at this year's reduced event is denying them the opportunity to raise funds. We've always been a fractious bunch but our diversity is part of our strength. Homogenising the movement on what the organisers assume are groups' attitudes is really poor


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## LDC (Sep 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's my view that people who identify as anarchists should be allowed a stall.



Does get tricky though if you follow that line, there's been plenty of dodgy groups over the years profess to being anarchists, some of the 'Alternative Green' lot (Richard Hunt, ex-Green Anarchist person) and the Heretics Bookfair in the late 1990s (?) has been mentioned here already that was a right hodge-podge of weird and dodgy groups not tolerated at the other anarchist bookfairs generally.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Does get tricky though if you follow that line, there's been plenty of dodgy groups over the years profess to being anarchists, some of the 'Alternative Green' lot (Richard Hunt, ex-Green Anarchist person) and the Heretics Bookfair in the late 1990s (?) has been mentioned here already that was a right hodge-podge of weird and dodgy groups not tolerated at the other anarchist bookfairs generally.


Yeh well obvs not your national anarchists or anarcho-capitalists


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## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Does get tricky though if you follow that line, there's been plenty of dodgy groups over the years profess to being anarchists, some of the 'Alternative Green' lot (Richard Hunt, ex-Green Anarchist person) and the Heretics Bookfair in the late 1990s (?) has been mentioned here already that was a right hodge-podge of weird and dodgy groups not tolerated at the other anarchist bookfairs generally.


Yeah, I'm trying to be as fair as possible to the organisers because I recognise it's an important event for all the reasons mentioned, and I think having a flawed bookfair is better than no bookfair at all, and making the new bookfair organisers a movement punching bag isn't really any fairer than doing it to the old organisers. And as I've mentioned above, I think the Antiuniversity lot have gone way too far in the other direction by including a talk by someone from the ITS/Atassa milieu. 
Having said all that, if I were a bookfair organiser, and some weirdo misanthropic reactionary who claimed some kind of affinity with anarchism tried to book a stall, I would probably just tell them "no, you're not welcome and here's why", and if some interested punter asked "Why haven't you let the Aum Shinrikyo Charles Manson Kill Everyone Now Club have a stall at your bookfair?" I would probably just explain why. This lot's refusal to do that does not make things any easier for anyone really.


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## LDC (Sep 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh well obvs not your national anarchists or anarcho-capitalists



I mean I think that's where the tension is coming from isn't it? Lots of that scene see anyone they think of as transphobic as akin to fascists.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I mean I think that's where the tension is coming from isn't it? Lots of that scene see anyone they think of as transphobic as akin to fascists.


I don't know if that's the case, and I wouldn't in this instance like to speculate. The ACG certainly aren't in any way fascist.


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## Wilf (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I mean I think that's where the tension is coming from isn't it? Lots of that scene see anyone they think of as transphobic as akin to fascists.


Seems to me that both refusing a stall and refusing to engage is something you'd do to an enemy.  I doubt that the collective _really _think that but they've managed to herd themselves into a ridiculous place.   I don't know whether it's political cognitive dissonance or Danny's couplers that's in play here, but the idea you can put the ACG in a box where you _literally _can't talk to them is ... quite something.  I'm trying to avoid saying this is the end point of identity politics. I'm _trying_.


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## Wilf (Sep 17, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Seems to me that both refusing a stall and refusing to engage is something you'd do to an enemy.  I doubt that the collective _really _think that but they've managed to herd themselves into a ridiculous place.   I don't know whether it's political cognitive dissonance or Danny's couplers that's in play here, but the idea you can put the ACG in a box where you _literally _can't talk to them is ... quite something.  I'm trying to avoid saying this is the end point of identity politics. I'm _trying_.


... goes back to the idea of a movement. If you are part of one, however loose, there's a place there where you can work through differences, however zero sum they appear (as in 'trans v terf').  This episode says that stances on the difficult idea define who is _part of the movement_ and who isn't.


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## LDC (Sep 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't know if that's the case, and I wouldn't in this instance like to speculate. The ACG certainly aren't in any way fascist.



Yeah of course they're not! I wasn't speculating about it in relation to this episode, but it is unfortunately an attitude I've come across among a good number of people elsewhere. _"Why would we debate trans stuff, we don't debate with fascists"_ kinda thing. Sure I've seen it on here as well tbh.



Wilf said:


> Seems to me that both refusing a stall and refusing to engage is something you'd do to an enemy.  I doubt that the collective _really _think that but they've managed to herd themselves into a ridiculous place.   I don't know whether it's political cognitive dissonance or Danny's couplers that's in play here, but the idea you can put the ACG in a box where you _literally _can't talk to them is ... quite something.  I'm trying to avoid saying this is the end point of identity politics. I'm _trying_.



The other place I've come across this is from the more bonkers end of the insurrectionary and individualist anarchist types; seeing anyone from other parts of the movement as inherently politically flawed, and so beyond redemption or consideration as part of _their _movement. Which often seems to slip it seeing them as the enemy as well. It's really quite 'Four Lions' sometimes. Very good/bad positions with no much room for nuance and complexity.

Someone clever who knows about psychology etc. would probably have something to say about this and why it seems quite prevalent among the left.


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## smokedout (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah of course they're not! I wasn't speculating about it in relation to this episode, but it is unfortunately an attitude I've come across among a good number of people elsewhere. _"Why would we debate trans stuff, we don't debate with fascists"_ kinda thing. Sure I've seen it on here as well tbh.


What do trans people have to gain from entering into a debate about whether they should lose legal rights granted over 25 years ago?  Should LGB people feel compelled to debate wih those who'd like to see laws prohibiting homosexuality restored?  Should women feel compelled to endlessly debate whether they should have the right to reproductive healthcare?  What is the intent of those calling for a debate?  Is it to further illuminate the subject and bring about mutual empathy and find solutions, or is it the first step in building a campaign to abolish trans rights?  What do the far right mean when they say we need to have a debate about immigration, and why is this any different?  Why should trans people be expected to walk into such an obvious trap?

I think people not understanding this, or reading it as something censorious, is where some of the tension lies in this matter.  It is not in trans people's political interests to take part in a debate about rights granted decades ago.  There is nothing to be gained from doing so and everything to lose.  And now it has been inflicted on us, largely by the power of the right wing press, things have got really shit for trans people in the UK.  

Incidentally how would you feel if your boss announced that they wanted to start a debate about whether you were paid too much or had too many workplace rights?  Would you happily trot along to a meeting with an open and curious mind to hear their sincere points of view, or would you tell them, as much as you could get away with, to fuck right off?


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## danny la rouge (Sep 17, 2021)

It’s probably here that I should point out that the ACG do not want to debate away trans people’s rights or anything of the sort.   Indeed we have nonbinary/trans members. We support trans rights.

This detour should probably take place on another thread lest people come away with the wrong idea.


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## Serge Forward (Sep 17, 2021)

Aye, and that's the problem, groups ghosted or banned from the bookfair never supported any of those anti-trans positions mentioned by smokedout.


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## kenny g (Sep 17, 2021)

It all started from when the SPGB weren't allowed a stall...

I remember having a discussion with one of the @ stall holders and they suggested  David Cameron was more of an @ than half the groups present. 

 It has always been a broad church and that was the beauty of the event. I feel in a way a bit like how I have never attended Glastonbury since the strong fence was erected back in 2000 ish. The magic has gone and the controllers have the reigns. 

I would say good luck to them but I would be lying. They have descended on a weak animal and turned it into a carcass. Each putrid peck in their verbiage takes away from the soul of something that was beautiful.


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## smokedout (Sep 17, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Aye, and that's the problem, groups ghosted or banned from the bookfair never supported any of those anti-trans positions mentioned by smokedout.



Tbf you said "The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught"

From a trans perspective that's a pretty concerning, and entirely untrue statement.  I appreciate you have a more nuanced position now though.


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## LDC (Sep 17, 2021)

smokedout said:


> What do trans people have to gain from entering into a debate about whether they should lose legal rights granted over 25 years ago?  Should LGB people feel compelled to debate wih those who'd like to see laws prohibiting homosexuality restored?  Should women feel compelled to endlessly debate whether they should have the right to reproductive healthcare?  What is the intent of those calling for a debate?  Is it to further illuminate the subject and bring about mutual empathy and find solutions, or is it the first step in building a campaign to abolish trans rights?  What do the far right mean when they say we need to have a debate about immigration, and why is this any different?  Why should trans people be expected to walk into such an obvious trap?



I have no interest in the wider 'gender critical' or whatever groups, we're talking about anarchist groups and the Anarchist Bookfair here. And likening people 'on our side' as being similar to the far right wanting to debate immigration is pretty low and erroneous and poor politics I think. Nobody I know in the anarchist movement has ever wanted to discuss removal of trans peoples' rights, nor has anyone I know or come across wanted to 'abolish trans rights' or have anything but support for trans people.

But that often isn't enough, people are expected to agree wholeheartedly with positions they are told to have, with no allowance of discussion or questioning, and _any_ discussion on the topic (and surely they are some legitimate good faith areas for discussion?) is often being painted as being akin to fascism and anyone wanting to discuss and work things out is the same as wanting to murder trans people. (How are people supposed to adapt and get better politics if not partly through some discussion btw?) Hence the ACG and others write some pretty good statement and _still _seem to be not allowed a stall at the Bookfair.

E2A: Anyway, this is a much done to death discussion, not sure I have anything to add, and sure you're much more fed up with it smokedout. I'll try and resist continuing it.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2021)

On the trans/debate thing, I think the problem isn't with connecting transphobia and the far-right - there definitely is an overlap there, it's not an coincidence that the Women Won't Wheesht crowd come out with this Save the Children rhetoric, anyone who thinks there's no connection there needs to read that Radix Journal article (link is to an archived version, I'm not linking directly to Radix!), etc. It's more a problem of people whose politics come more from posturing social media posts about punching nazis than from serious, ambitious antifascist strategy, imo.
Like, however much we might glorify the confrontational side of things at times, I'd guess most people would agree that the vast majority of antifascism has to be about the political work that's needed to separate off the soft support from the hardcore, and to wear down that soft middle ground support, which will involve a lot of discussion, and also clear-eyed analysis that doesn't just lump things together. By way of analogy, I'd think it'd probably be fairly uncontroversial on urban to say that both a) the far-right were heavily involved in and supportive of the Brexit campaign, and b) it'd be daft and counter-productive to refuse to talk to any Brexit supporters on those grounds?
Idk, I appreciate people are sick of this conversation, but given that "are the ACG transphobic?" seems to be a question that's helped drive the issue that the last however many posts of this thread are discussing, I think it might be worth having out here. 
Also, I wish it was that easy to separate out the GC lot on one side, and the Anarchist Bookfair on the other, but if Women's Place or whoever had avoided leafleting the previous bookfair, or if all attendees had been unanimous about rejecting them, then... well, this whole mess could have been averted and we'd all be a lot happier.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I have no interest in the wider 'gender critical' or whatever groups, we're talking about anarchist groups and the Anarchist Bookfair here. And likening people 'on our side' as being similar to the far right wanting to debate immigration is pretty low and erroneous and poor politics I think. Nobody I know in the anarchist movement has ever wanted to discuss removal of trans peoples' rights, nor has anyone I know or come across wanted to 'abolish trans rights' or have anything but support for trans people.
> 
> But that often isn't enough, people are expected to agree wholeheartedly with positions they are told to have, with no allowance of discussion or questioning, and _any_ discussion on the topic (and surely they are some legitimate good faith areas for discussion?) is often being painted as being akin to fascism and anyone wanting to discuss and work things out is the same as wanting to murder trans people. (How are people supposed to adapt and get better politics if not partly through some discussion btw?) Hence the ACG and others write some pretty good statement and _still _seem to be not allowed a stall at the Bookfair.
> 
> E2A: Anyway, this is a much done to death discussion, not sure I have anything to add, and sure you're much more fed up with it smokedout. I'll try and resist continuing it.


One of the problems, from a trans perspective at least, is that even the most vociferous anti-trans activists claim not to be transphobic or opposed to trans rights.  One of the founders of WPUK insisted to me that they didn't want a bathroom bill despite it being right there in their key demands that they want to see businesses fined for not providing cis female only toilets.  There are also been claims that trans rights, as trans people understand them and as the courts have confirmed, do not actually exist, and that trans people are suddenly demanding access to toilets and changing rooms inline with their gender in a way they never have before.  This is the terrain trans people have to navigate - the gender critical movement has continually been evasive, ambiguous and duplicitous, so it is understandable why claims that of course I support trans rights are often met with suspicion.

So without going over old ground, and back to the ACG, the 2019 statement does nothing to dispel that ambiguity and in fact appears to accept the main ideological plank of gender critical thought which is that the rights of trans women and cis women have always been opposed, or had a fraught relationship. That's why I raised an eyebrow when I first read it and I'm pleased they changed it.  However, and regardless of rows about the bookfair, the ACG calls for sensitivity and understanding, which is also appreciated and which should also apply to the ACG.  Trans people are being targetted by the right/far right all over the world with ever more vicious slurs and attempted legislation and this is frequently being cheered on by gender critical activists (who despite this claim they are not transphobic or opposed to trans rights).  As an ACG member puts it on this thread, there is an anti-trans movement currently in Scotland that transphobic, deranged and completely obsessed, and there's nothing that unusual about the women won't wheesht crowd - mumsnet and their English counterparts are no different and I've seen more than one GC anarchist sharing crap from groups like this.

Given the increasing virulence of the anti-trans movement, the circumstances in which the ACG were formed, and the fact that they felt the need to reissue a statement themselves on their position on trans people - presumably because they thought they had not been clear, or a more nuanced position has emerged - then perhaps sensitivity and understanding includes recognising why trans people might be feeling a bit paranoid, why some trans people may not immediately take everything said at face value, and why it might take a bit of time and comradely negotiation for trust to be built up between some trans anarchists and allies and the ACG.  That is not a personal attack on anyone, it's not a comment at all on what's happened regarding the bookfair, and it's not an accusation of transphobia, just a recognition that this is very difficult terrain, and whilst screaming transphobe at the ACG helps no-one neither does ACG members becoming aggresively defensive at even the suggestion they might have got things a bit wrong on this issue in the past.


----------



## nastyned (Sep 18, 2021)

smokedout said:


> One of the problems, from a trans perspective at least, is that even the most vociferous anti-trans activists claim not to be transphobic or opposed to trans rights.  One of the founders of WPUK insisted to me that they didn't want a bathroom bill despite it being right there in their key demands that they want to see businesses fined for not providing cis female only toilets.  There are also been claims that trans rights, as trans people understand them and as the courts have confirmed, do not actually exist, and that trans people are suddenly demanding access to toilets and changing rooms inline with their gender in a way they never have before.  This is the terrain trans people have to navigate - the gender critical movement has continually been evasive, ambiguous and duplicitous, so it is understandable why claims that of course I support trans rights are often met with suspicion.
> 
> So without going over old ground, and back to the ACG, the 2019 statement does nothing to dispel that ambiguity and in fact appears to accept the main ideological plank of gender critical thought which is that the rights of trans women and cis women have always been opposed, or had a fraught relationship. That's why I raised an eyebrow when I first read it and I'm pleased they changed it.  However, and regardless of rows about the bookfair, the ACG calls for sensitivity and understanding, which is also appreciated and which should also apply to the ACG.  Trans people are being targetted by the right/far right all over the world with ever more vicious slurs and attempted legislation and this is frequently being cheered on by gender critical activists (who despite this claim they are not transphobic or opposed to trans rights).  As an ACG member puts it on this thread, there is an anti-trans movement currently in Scotland that transphobic, deranged and completely obsessed, and there's nothing that unusual about the women won't wheesht crowd - mumsnet and their English counterparts are no different and I've seen more than one GC anarchist sharing crap from groups like this.
> 
> Given the increasing virulence of the anti-trans movement, the circumstances in which the ACG were formed, and the fact that they felt the need to reissue a statement themselves on their position on trans people - presumably because they thought they had not been clear, or a more nuanced position has emerged - then perhaps sensitivity and understanding includes recognising why trans people might be feeling a bit paranoid, why some trans people may not immediately take everything said at face value, and why it might take a bit of time and comradely negotiation for trust to be built up between some trans anarchists and allies and the ACG.  That is not a personal attack on anyone, it's not a comment at all on what's happened regarding the bookfair, and it's not an accusation of transphobia, just a recognition that this is very difficult terrain, and whilst screaming transphobe at the ACG helps no-one neither does ACG members becoming aggresively defensive at even the suggestion they might have got things a bit wrong on this issue in the past.


I don't have a problem saying the ACG could have written things better at times. And I'd go all the way back to the AF split for those of us involved in it. The 'Helen Steel's a fascist cunt who got what was coming to her' faction were very clued up on trans politics whereas I don't think any of us in the 'We know Helen why didn't you try talking to her you dicks' faction were. I now know a bit more about trans politics and can see that it's possible to say things perfectly innocently that could be taken as coded attacks by those in the know. Which is perhaps why Rhyddical-BinACG has repeatedly accused us of 'dog whistling'. We're not and never were, I don't think we knew enough to dog whistle if we even wanted to. And we didn't anyway as we're not and never have been transphobic.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 18, 2021)

Thanks for that smokedout.  I appreciate your perspective.  And please be assured that I do understand the attacks that trans people find themselves under. It must be exhausting to say the least.

You mention a phrase from a now superseded ACG statement. I can’t speak to something that was issued before I joined the ACG.  I do understand the way you read that phrase; I can can see that it could be interpreted that way.  I don’t think it was meant that way but the point is that it is from an old statement. There is a newer one.  I say that without any intention to disparage those who wrote the old statement.


Statements are a snapshot in time. And naturally they are updated periodically.  Living organisations are an ongoing internal conversation. Organisations that ossify around yesterday’s conversation won’t be healthy. At best they’ll be dusty repositories of past events. The ACG is a living organisation.  It doesn’t claim to have the answer for everything. That would lead to stagnation.  We are a forward looking organisation.

And nor would I expect the ACG to in some _official way_ go back over what people said or did during a dispute which took place before the organisation existed, and which involved only a small minority of the current membership. (But, by definition, before they were members).  We live and learn, of course, but we don’t dwell in the past. That would be unhelpful.

I don’t know which ACG members have appeared “aggressively defensive”.  I don’t even know if you refer to this thread or to other encounters.  But I can’t say I blame people who get frustrated with a situation where there is no clear communication from another party to a dispute.  The Bookfair Collective could have been open and straightforward but chose not to be.  There is no disputing that fact.
I don’t know if you are in any way connected to the Bookfair Collective.  I hope you are, because you seem capable of sensible communication.  I hope it rubs off on them.


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## Rhyddical (Sep 18, 2021)

nastyned said:


> Which is perhaps why Rhyddical-BinACG has repeatedly accused us of 'dog whistling'.



FFS, come back to check a message, to see yet another ACG member jacketing me with that shit.
It's not me comrades, you are barking up the wrong tree.
Numerous ACG members gleefully and repeatedly jacketing a fellow anarchist... ugh. sort it out.

Regarding the AF split (Which has absolutely nothing to do with the Bookfair collective or it's decisions) The statement that was put forward contained lots of dogwhistling, unconscious as they may be, nobody thought it was written by transphobes, but by people who were repeating the talking points of transphobes in the defence of a transphobe . One which trans members of the Federation had for two years or so been telling others was transphobic.("Helen is a comrade" probably not the best use of words given the situation at the time) It's not like there wasn't discussion long before Bookfair 2017, immediately after (like the next day) and in the following weeks before a dozen members penned that statement, the original version of it which was pretty aweful. I and other members, rightly responded to it with disapproval, maybe even a little shock, I'm not that close to any of you, but it really hurt others who were and the subsequently proclaimation that the "Fed had turned too liberal we have to leave" because people trying like fuck to highlight that it was full of dogwhistles, transphobic talking points etc was just, messed up.

Discussion and consensus reaching dissolved before the defensive postures and hostility taken up when people tried to tell y'all how messed up it was.
Now here we're fucking gassing about it on a public thread, which is only going to inflame the situation instead of talking about it privately and working to repair that damage?

Look, I'm glad it was edited before it was posted, I'm glad the two or three trans solidarity statements since have continued to improve (tho I'm not it's ideal imo) but development needs recognition of past problems, and frankly I think that's what some are struggling to see. It's why you've got angry individualists writing anonymous posts and why other groups have such a sour opinion and make the choice to have no communication or whatever. You've been about for four years and have yet to acknowledge that a good portion of your membership were party to this, hoping that the rest of the Anarchist milleu will just forget and they won't, like it's got nothing to do with the AF or me, is the Anarchist scene mates. I heard more than one random person cussing you out as "Transphobes" at the bookfair, I don't agree with it, but it's there because you won't acknowledge it so for half the movement it just looks like you're trying to cover up, mass deny and move on and it's not going to go away, and I'm talking here about people who have nothing to do with the AF, Bookfair or anything like that.

Right here on this thread, we've had a massive pile on, for what? Coz I'm beholden to others and my manner can be a bit glib or obtuse? Ok, I get it I do. I'd call me a dick too, I've taken the public lashing (deserved or otherwise) and the joke of it is, you are taking out your resentment on the wrong person is, just as Charlie is when he's having a moan about me about town and here when you are attaching some random persons bullshit to me and as Nastned is doing here.

Jacketing people with false accusations is dodge as fuck. Don't do it.

It's not me whose got an issue with you, it's everyone else mate, frankly I don't care, I spend zero of my time thinking about cha other than "now that they are distinctly platformists there is more definition between them and AF which is a good thing" and I look forward to going back to that, at best I think you should write some formal handshaking emails to various groups and start rebuilding the bridges you burnt, even if it was just a small portion of your members, that damage is real and you seem to think it's just those gutter snipes at the AF raining on your parade. I hope now, maybe, you realise that it aint.

 Oh and stop jacketing me as your great detractor, I'm a bit precious about people lying about me to be honest and again, you are wrong.

I'm very clearly not talking about certain things and I have my reasons, I've got other shit to attend to rather than spend my mornings writing this stuff so please, comrades, in all good faith here, stop fucking lying about me coz you've got beef and just stop bringing me up in this thread, especially as a scape goat.


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## Sue (Sep 18, 2021)

So were the ACG banned from getting a stall at the bookfair? Yes or no will do. Thanks.

(I genuinely don't understand most of what you write, Rhyddical. I find it very unclear.)


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## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Discussion and consensus reaching dissolved before the defensive postures and hostility taken up when people tried to tell y'all how messed up it was.
> Now here we're fucking gassing about it on a public thread, which is only going to inflame the situation instead of talking about it privately and working to repair that damage?
> 
> ...I think you should write some formal handshaking emails to various groups and start rebuilding the bridges you burnt


I appreciate that you find it upsetting when people accuse you of doing something that you haven't done, and I hope you can extend similar consideration to others who are getting stressed out because accusations have been made about them that, in their view, are inaccurate.

But regarding talking about it privately, could you clarify what exactly happened when the ACG tried to email the bookfair collective and have a private conversation that way? It seems to me that would have been a good opportunity to have a private conversation and try to repair damage that way, but that does not seem to be what's happened.


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2021)

He doesn’t like it up ‘im, sir!  He doesn’t like it up ‘im!


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## Rhyddical (Sep 18, 2021)

I'm sorry if my writing is unclear, however what should be clear is that I'm not talking about the Bookfair policies on a public thread. I've said this a few times and yes I know I've been obtuse and unhelpful. Again, sorry about that. Those involved know the reasons. ,This isn't the space, again, sorry if the thread feels that that is a cunt move, but frankly it involves discussion that shouldn't be public.

Honestly at this point, think it'd be better if we stopped gassing about it on a Bookfair thread, give breathing space so that those involved can do whatever they need to backstage and hopefully clean up whatever mess there is one way or another.

Better us this space for talking about whether or not having an outside space worked, how were the online sessions? Wasn't it nice to be back in Conway hall etc etc


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> yet another ACG member jacketing me with that shit.
> It's not me comrades, you are barking up the wrong tree.


That’s something we can clear up now. As far as I know, nastyned isn’t an ACG member. 

The vast majority of people on this thread are not ACG members.

I am. redsquirrel is. Count Cuckula is. charlie mowbray is. Serge Forward is.  Another member was involved in the thread earlier on who isn’t active on Urban75 any more.  And one other member who hasn’t been on this thread is registered on U75.


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## planetgeli (Sep 18, 2021)

Sue said:


> So were the ACG banned from getting a stall at the bookfair? Yes or no will do. Thanks.
> 
> (I genuinely don't understand most of what you write, Rhyddical. I find it very unclear.)


 Page 97 so far (though yes, not all on this current issue). But I'm referencing it because sure as shit people on here will still be doing magic roundabout circles way past page 100 and you won't get an answer. I really think people need to get out and do other stuff to, y'know, "help the community".

Because this thread is an embarrassing waste of space.

And no, I don't understand most of what Rhyddical writes either.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> FFS, come back to check a message, to see yet another ACG member jacketing me with that shit.
> It's not me comrades, you are barking up the wrong tree.
> Numerous ACG members gleefully and repeatedly jacketing a fellow anarchist... ugh. sort it out.
> 
> ...


It's no surprise you've heard other people describing the ACG as transphobic when the bookfair organisers gave people to understand that was their view of the group. Btw I have never been a member of the ACG but in the interests of openness I have been for thirty years a member of the XACF


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## Rhyddical (Sep 18, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s something we can clear up now. As far as I know, nastyned isn’t an ACG member.
> 
> The vast majority of people on this thread are not ACG members.
> 
> I am. redsquirrel is. Count Cuckula is. charlie mowbray is. Serge Forward is.  Another member was involved in the thread earlier on who isn’t active on Urban75 any more.  And one other member who hasn’t been on this thread is registered on U75.



Cool, my bad, Guess I assume all of "those of us involved in it" went onto member up in the ACG.
Glad we cleared that up, tho tbh, even more problematic that others have got that nonsense in their head due to it being repeated by Charlie (on thread and elsewhere), see thats how Jacketing works, and Ned here won't be the only one. How many people not privy to my protestations here now have it in their head that Rhyddical (now doxxed, public accounts links, real name findable etc etc) is some snake who set up a anonymous lashing of comrades?

Pickmin, I'm not sure how bookfair organisers have done this thing when I've persistantly said I don't think ACG are transphobic and the collective as so noted, has been silent on the issue. This is the problem with all the shadow boxing that's been going on, It's also why we shouldn't have a public airing of laundry.


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## Rhyddical (Sep 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Page 97 so far (though yes, not all on this current issue). But I'm referencing it because sure as shit people on here will still be doing magic roundabout circles way past page 100 and you won't get an answer. I really think people need to get out and do other stuff to, y'know, "help the community".
> 
> Because this thread is an embarrassing waste of space.
> 
> And no, I don't understand most of what Rhyddical writes either.



I whole heartedly agree, so I'm gunna go and do some thing out in the community now ;p sorry for no replies for a while, It's not pointed silence folks x


(TBH my mates don't understand me half the time in the real world either. Apparently no one knows what "tatted" as in "to tat an old chair" means. Just me?)


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2021)

Again, I appreciate it's distressing for you that you've been linked to this other account, and I can see why you think it'd be better to have certain conversations in private rather than out in public, but that is also a bit of a maddening thing to say if this whole mess started with people trying to email you and getting blanked in response. Having sensitive conversations in private rather than public is a good idea, but if you don't reply to people trying to contact you privately then it does seem a bit catch-22.


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## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> let's hope this will end well


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> (TBH my mates don't understand me half the time in the real world either. Apparently no one knows what "tatted" as in "to tat an old chair" means. Just me?)


You seem to have omitted a w


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Pickmin, I'm not sure how bookfair organisers have done this thing when I've persistantly said I don't think ACG are transphobic and the collective as so noted, has been silent on the issue. This is the problem with all the shadow boxing that's been going on, It's also why we shouldn't have a public airing of laundry.


Ridicul, you don't need to say something explicit to suggest something to someone else, a nod's as good as a wink etc. As others have said if you actually replied to emails etc none of this dirty washing would be necessary


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## A380 (Sep 18, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In some ways, that'd be fair enough if a few people put a Bookfair on in their town or city - although still pretty weird and they'd need to explain if they excluded established anarchist groups. But the London one, especially as you are taking on the long history and accumulated hard work put into the other events over decades, is tied to a movement and various groups whether the organisers like it (or them) or not. And it's fucking arrogant, individualist, and bad political form to just decide established anarchist groups aren't welcome (or whatever bollocks term that's been used).




Has anyone thought about setting up an over arching Anarchist Book Fair authority that could set rules and regulations for official Anarchist Book Fates and so prevent individual groups or individuals setting up non official Anarchist Book Fairs as appears to have happened in the case of this Anarchist Book Fare.

Happy to help…


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2021)

A380 said:


> Has anyone thought about setting up an over arching Anarchist Book Fair authority that could set rules and regulations for official Anarchist Book Fates and so prevent individual groups or individuals setting up non official Anarchist Book Fairs as appears to have happened in the case of this Anarchist Book Fare.
> 
> Happy to help…


Haven't you heard of ofbook, the bookfair regulators?


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## A380 (Sep 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Haven't you heard of ofbook, the bookfair regulators?


I thought it would have fallen under the purview of OfAnarchy …


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2021)

A380 said:


> I thought it would have fallen under the purview of OfAnarchy …


Abolished in Cameron's bonfire of the quangos


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## A380 (Sep 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Abolished in Cameron's bonfire of the quangos



Along with OfuTrot, OfSpart and OfCom?


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## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2021)

Ofcommie?


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## planetgeli (Sep 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Haven't you heard of ofbook, the bookfair regulators?



I'm more familiar with their sister organisation, UnFair - responsible for bannings and obfuscation.


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## chilango (Sep 18, 2021)

Banned from the Bookfair.. O.K.
I never much liked selliing there anyway
They said they only wanted well behaved mates.
Do they think pamphlets and .PDFs are just out of date?
Fuck 'em, I chosen to have my stall
On the grass outside Conway Hall
They just sit there on their overfed arses
Feeding off the sweat of less fortunate classes
They keep their fucking power cause their finger's on the button
They've got control and won't let it be forgotten
The truth of their reality is at the wrong end of a post
The proof of that is Twitter and other social media hosts
Seeing the platformist lying in the front yard
Seeing the status updates resting on the fence
Finding the entrance to your ownopen  meeting is barred
And they've got the fucking nerve to call it defence
Seems their defence is just the threat of strength
Protection for the privileged at any length
The Bookfair committee protecting their profits from the poor
The young counterculturalists chaining up the door
Afraid that the people may ask for a little more
Than the shit they get. The shit they get
The shit they get. The shit they get
The shit they get. The shit they get
The shit they get. The shit they get
Defence? Shit, we forgot about class war
And no one but the Bookfair crew know what the fuck is for


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## planetgeli (Sep 18, 2021)

chilango said:


> Banned from the Bookfair.. O.K.
> I never much liked selliing there anyway
> They said they only wanted well behaved mates.
> Do they think pamphlets and .PDFs are just out of date?
> ...



Made me smile. Your own? Sounds like it's adapted from Crass or Poison Girls or something but nice one anyway, I needed a smile.


----------



## maomao (Sep 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Made me smile. Your own? Sounds like it's adapted from Crass or Poison Girls or something but nice one anyway, I needed a smile.


Crass - Banned from the Roxy


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## chilango (Sep 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Made me smile. Your own? Sounds like it's adapted from Crass or Poison Girls or something but nice one anyway, I needed a smile.


----------



## Lorca (Sep 18, 2021)

or this for you younger types


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## LDC (Sep 18, 2021)

Lorca said:


> or this for you younger types




'Younger' meaning 40s rather than 50s!


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## hitmouse (Sep 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Abolished in Cameron's bonfire of the quangos


Wasn't there some kind of successor organisation set up to continue their work, though?


Lorca said:


> or this for you younger types



Or indeed:


----------



## Wilf (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> *I'm sorry if my writing is unclear, however what should be clear is that I'm not talking about the Bookfair policies on a public thread.* I've said this a few times and yes I know I've been obtuse and unhelpful. Again, sorry about that. Those involved know the reasons. ,This isn't the space, again, sorry if the thread feels that that is a cunt move, but frankly it involves discussion that shouldn't be public.
> 
> Honestly at this point, think it'd be better if we stopped gassing about it on a Bookfair thread, give breathing space so that those involved can do whatever they need to backstage and hopefully clean up whatever mess there is one way or another.
> 
> Better us this space for talking about whether or not having an outside space worked, how were the online sessions? Wasn't it nice to be back in Conway hall etc etc


Nobody expects to hear about the discussions you've had or who said what as a collective, but people have _every right_ to hear about your policies with regard to accepting stall applications.  As it stood, *you *invited applications and then, apparently, ignored a group who had done as you asked. And not just a random group, a group representing a central tradition.  Even if you won't discuss it on here, you are under an absolute obligation to engage with the ACG. Not just manners, but plain and simple comradeship.


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## Rhyddical (Sep 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> apparently,



I've no absolute obligation to talk to anyone, neither does any org, none the less go into private affairs in public spaces.
Still, I have and hopefully the result will be a lot clearer for all parties in future with no need for speculative fury and shadow boxing.

The sooner thread just accepts this disappointing lack of information and it's dealt with properly the better, public baiting and beefs help no one, especially since I'm a cunt no one can understand apparently hahah.

Put this one back on track, we've got several stand alone sessions coming up which may not may not interest IDK, I'd rather be posting about them when it comes to it rather that going round and round, Frankly I'm spent with U75. I'm here coz I think there are good folk here who should be kept in the loop, but maybe I just can't hack the grind eh? Especially when it gets personal, fabricated and malicious, something I think it's clear, got under my skin a little lol. (little violins boo hoo etc etc)


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## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I've no absolute obligation to talk to anyone, neither does any org, none the less go into private affairs in public spaces.
> Still, I have and hopefully to result will be a lot clearer for all parties in future with no need for speculative fury and shadow boxing.
> 
> The sooner thread just accepts this disappointing lack of information and it's dealt with properly the better, public baiting and beefs help no one, especially since I'm a cunt no one can understand apparently hahah.
> ...


Bloody hell,  but you're a bell end.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 18, 2021)

Absolutely howling at “good folk here who should be kept in the loop”.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 18, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I've no absolute obligation to talk to anyone, neither does any org, none the less go into private affairs in public spaces.
> Still, I have and hopefully the result will be a lot clearer for all parties in future with no need for speculative fury and shadow boxing.
> 
> The sooner thread just accepts this disappointing lack of information and it's dealt with properly the better, public baiting and beefs help no one, especially since I'm a cunt no one can understand apparently hahah.
> ...


There's a bottom line here: you invited anarchist organisations to apply for a stall. You got those applications, but refused to reply to at least one of those.  The most anyone has got from you is 'reasons... it's secret... we aren't telling you'.  It's nothing to do with revealing your internal discussion, there's no need to breach confidentiality.  We weren't at the point of finding out your 'reasons', though your reversion to the tale of the AFED split makes it very clear what they are. It was initially about getting you to actually _reply_.  Disagreements remain around trans rights and one of your earlier posts seemed to be suggesting you'd only allow any kind of rapprochement if the ACG recant/apologise.  But whatever the future, whatever the chances of movement, this sorry episode only makes things worse.  For all the pirouettes in your posts, you don't seem able to address that.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2021)

Note who owns 'the loop'.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 19, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Note who owns 'the loop'.


I'm not sure Rhyddical even owns a hi viz


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2021)

Could borrow one off Monte. The one they all wear when doing drilling at freedom. Look at me, I'm doing a drilling. With my hands. Not like you bookworms.


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> ...It's also why we shouldn't have a public airing of laundry.


It takes a certain level of cheek, or possibly just a complete absence of self awareness, to spend as much time and effort as you have slinging shit around on this thread and then complaining when asked to go some way towards cleaning up the mess that you yourself have made.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 19, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Absolutely howling at “good folk here who should be kept in the loop”.


Just did a search for clips from In the Loop, the bit from about 1:00-1:11 here feels quite appropriate:


----------



## Wilf (Sep 19, 2021)

Anyway, you've had your chance to get an answer now. Rhyddical is the Brigadoon of anarchism and won't be back for another year.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 21, 2021)

The weather was nice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s perfectly clear that (whoever these people are) they don’t feel we are part of the same movement as them.  And given the evidence, I don’t think that should bother us. We probably aren’t.
> 
> But if they can just get on with whatever it is they do without spreading lies about us that would be optimal.


Performative, posturing pseudo-anarchism should NEVER bother us.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2021)

kabbes said:


> You can make many different types of statement about the trans wars.  However,  one thing that makes no sense at all is to label the varied parts of it (from hard left to hard right) that reject the uncritical acceptance of trans identities (for whatever reason) as “liberal”. It’s the very opposite of liberal. Liberal means that you take the isolated individual as primary, and their opinion as sovereign regarding their position and role in the world.  The only reasonable liberal stance is the uncritical acceptance that if a person says they are a woman, that means they are a woman.



Makes belboid a liberal, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, you clearly had a clue  the original ACG statemwnt on trans rights was somewhat lacking as you updated it after eighteen months.
> 
> It says you oppose trans oppression, who doesnt (except for the most vicious terfs)?
> 
> ...



Interesting. You want danny to use a word that has been brought into existence in opposition to trans. Hardly going to bring around a resolution of differences, is it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> FFS, come back to check a message, to see yet another ACG member jacketing me with that shit.
> It's not me comrades, you are barking up the wrong tree.
> Numerous ACG members gleefully and repeatedly jacketing a fellow anarchist... ugh. sort it out.
> 
> ...



So basically nothing is your fault, it was big kids that done it, then ran away?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Absolutely howling at “good folk here who should be kept in the loop”.



He still hasn't realised we're all thoroughgoing cunts (except you, of course!).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Could borrow one off Monte. The one they all wear when doing drilling at freedom. Look at me, I'm doing a drilling. With my hands. Not like you bookworms.



Ah, I love performative manual work, it's so fucking bourgeois!!!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 27, 2021)

Would have read this thread sooner if I'd known about the all the iron fist action going down here! Expulsion on ideological grounds. Check. Opaque expulsion procedure. Check. Refusal to engage with dissenters. Check. Denunciation of dissenters and the "vile insult from the incompentant anarchkiddies". Check. Very excellent stuff all round!


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Would have read this thread sooner if I'd known about the all the iron fist action going down here! Expulsion on ideological grounds. Check. Opaque expulsion procedure. Check. Refusal to engage with dissenters. Check. Denunciation of dissenters and the "vile insult from the incompentant anarchkiddies". Check. Very excellent stuff all round!


Stamarchism!


----------



## campanula (Sep 27, 2021)

Um, I have also been having a daily read cos who doesn't like a bit of foaming outrage. (when someone else is doing the shouting). There is some fairly decent quality rage at my allotment society, but  as my plot seems to excite a fair bit of it, I tend to give meetings a miss and hide in my shed.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2021)

I have been trying on and off to work my way through the older bits of this thread as a way of killing time, in a sort of "Previously on the London Anarchist Bookfair drama thread..." way. Is it my memory playing tricks on me, or was there a bit where someone, I think the now-departed Larry, started posting algebra for some fucking reason?


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 27, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I have been trying on and off to work my way through the older bits of this thread as a way of killing time, in a sort of "Previously on the London Anarchist Bookfair drama thread..." way. Is it my memory playing tricks on me, or was there a bit where someone, I think the now-departed Larry, started posting algebra for some fucking reason?


You really need to get out more


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> You really need to get out more


Fair comment. I would blame working from home, but then I was already a deeply tedious person anyway so 🤷‍♂️.

But also: you know that bit in superhero films where they show you the villain's origin story, the moment that made them so bitter and twisted, like Danny DeVito falling into a vat of radioactive penguins or whatever? If you go back and read the bit of this thread where Rhyddical first shows up and immediately gets bombarded with nonsense about PPE and whether saying y'all is cultural appropriation, I reckon that's the moment that led to him becoming Jokerfied.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 27, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fair comment. I would blame working from home, but then I was already a deeply tedious person anyway so 🤷‍♂️.
> 
> But also: you know that bit in superhero films where they show you the villain's origin story, the moment that made them so bitter and twisted, like Danny DeVito falling into a vat of radioactive penguins or whatever? If you go back and read the bit of this thread where Rhyddical first shows up and immediately gets bombarded with nonsense about PPE and whether saying y'all is cultural appropriation, I reckon that's the moment that led to him becoming Jokerfied.


I'm working it up into a filmscript, a clash of _2 _superheroes: 'Stallwanter Versus the Mysterious Question-Notanswerer'.  Might need a _bit _of work.


----------



## Santino (Sep 27, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm working it up into a filmscript, a clash of _2 _superheroes: 'Stallwanter Versus the Mysterious Question-Notanswerer'.  Might need a _bit _of work.


ACGman vs the Noper


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

Pensioners Non-Assemble


----------



## Sue (Sep 27, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm working it up into a filmscript, a clash of _2 _superheroes: 'Stallwanter Versus the Mysterious Question-Notanswerer'.  Might need a _bit _of work.





Serge Forward said:


> You really need to get out more


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 27, 2021)

_The Wronged Greybeards versus the Performative Silence

Passive Aggressive Hi Vis & the Case of the. pdf Challenged_


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 27, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fair comment. I would blame working from home


Tis true. I've never been on urban and t'internet in general so much, since (pretending to) work from home came in.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 27, 2021)

No cuntery for old men


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 27, 2021)

The Bookfair Murders (TV Movie 2000) - IMDb


----------



## Sue (Sep 27, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> The Bookfair Murders (TV Movie 2000) - IMDb


Bloodbath...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_...And Justice For Stall_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_Pee-Dee-Eff's Big Adventure
_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_Grumpy Old Mensheviks
_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

Oh, and obviously _Grumpier Old Mensheviks_


----------



## Wilf (Sep 27, 2021)

_The Rhyddler._


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 27, 2021)

Dear god


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2021)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to John Quail's new book covering this period of history, _The Long-Running Beef_.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 27, 2021)

_The Plank Stall_. In this hilarious British silent comedy, members of the ACG carry their plank stall around London with plenty an ideological mishap on the way. Starring Eric Sykes Serge Forward and Tommy Cooper Danny La Rouge.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_Stall: The Precedent's Met_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_Platform Here To Eternity_


----------



## JimW (Sep 27, 2021)

_The Young and the Trestless_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_Trestlemania XXI_


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2021)

The ragged trousered misanthropists by Robert trestle


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_ACG Tourer: Pamphlet Defective_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2021)

_Carry On Up The Bookfair
Doctor In The Applications
Confessions Of A Horizontal Bureaucrat
_


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 27, 2021)

Mowbray Goes Bananas


----------



## chilango (Sep 27, 2021)

Sliding Jackdaws


----------



## deeyo (Sep 27, 2021)

_all is quiet on the bookfair stall

a stall that dare not speak its name

the bookfair of babel - anarconfusion of tongues_


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)




----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 28, 2021)

And folks, the ACG will have a stall at this one.


----------



## Santino (Sep 28, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> And folks, the ACG will have a stall at this one.


_ACGman Returns_


----------



## Sue (Sep 28, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> And folks, the ACG will have a stall at this one.


Where's the fun in that, eh?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

"'Quit stalling', said Rhyddical to the ACG. 'But that's what we said to you,' said the ACG."


----------



## Wilf (Sep 28, 2021)

So, presumably this mean that the Manchester and Salford Collective will never be allowed a stall at the London Bookfair?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

So will that make them mad for it or, heaven knows, miserable now?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

Wilf said:


> So, presumably this mean that the Manchester and Salford Collective will never be allowed a stall at the London Bookfair?


It's grim down south.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

They'll be told in no uncertain terms to leave the capitol.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> So will that make them mad for it or, heaven knows, miserable now?


They can run stalls in Manchester all they want, but the pleasures of the London bookfair will have to remain unknown.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 28, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> So will that make them mad for it or, heaven knows, miserable now?


The ACG ask and the Collective panic. 

Ultimately, the ACG are told you just haven't earned it yet baby and I don't owe you anything. When the Angry Works offer to help out with a stall they are told I won't share you.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

Wilf said:


> The ACG ask and the Collective panic.
> 
> Ultimately, the ACG are told you just haven't earned it yet baby and I don't owe you anything. When the Angry Works offer to help out with a stall they are told I won't share you.


I'm going to have to stop you there, I think I've heard this one before and anyway these jokes aren't funny anymore.

Also if anyone reaches the point of making an Oasis joke on this thread I will deffo email the Manchester collective asking them to ban that poster.


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2021)

_*Squirrel and ACG-Man Twenty Four Hour Party People Plastic Face Carnt Smile (White Out)*_


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 28, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> And folks, the ACG will have a stall at this one.


Where the new edition of _Stormy Petrel_ will be available in hard copy too.


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Where the new edition of _Stormy Petrel_ will be available in hard copy too.


The only available Petrel in the area without massive queues....


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> The only available Petrel in the area without massive queues....


How very dare you! Of course there will be massive queues.


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 28, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> "'Quit stalling', said Rhyddical to the ACG. 'But that's what we said to you,' said the ACG."



Dave is definitely the stand out candidate on this thread for Marcus Brigstock's understudy on _Just A Minute

"Your subject is Rhyddical's obfuscation. Tell us something, if you will, Dave, without hesitation, repetition or deviation...."_


----------



## JimW (Sep 28, 2021)

Worker's Girder special edition on sale outside (in Sale), _Not on Your Frasnelli._


----------



## A380 (Sep 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm going to have to stop you there, I think I've heard this one before and anyway these jokes aren't funny anymore.
> 
> Also if anyone reaches the point of making an Oasis joke on this thread I will deffo email the Manchester collective asking them to ban that poster.


Whatever.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Dave is definitely the stand out candidate on this thread for Marcus Brigstock's understudy


This ranks up there with the time that a piss-taking Parisian hostel receptionist asked if I was David Guetta 😡


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> Whatever.


I know. You’ve got to roll with it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> _*Squirrel and ACG-Man Twenty Four Hour Party People Plastic Face Carnt Smile (White Out)*_


likesfish are you there?


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. You’ve got to roll with it.


...after all, you're my wonder stall.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

Stall odd (lib) coms


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. You’ve got to rollmop with it.


FTFY


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 28, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> FTFY


Thank you. Clearly, I’m standing on the shoulders of giants.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Dave is definitely the stand out candidate on this thread for Marcus Brigstock's understudy on _Just A Minute
> 
> "Your subject is Rhyddical's obfuscation. Tell us something, if you will, Dave, without hesitation, repetition or deviation...."_


Rhyddical's own appearance on that show was less of a triumph: "Your subject is the event that you're organising. Tell us something, if you will..."


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2021)

And so Danny can wait
He knows it's too late
As we're walking on by
His pamphlet slides away
But don't look back in anger
I heard you say


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2021)

And though the stall offers me protection
A pamphlet and affection
Whether I'm right or wrong
And with Jackdaw
Wherever I can hawk it
I know that the Bookfair can't ban it
When I have a text, the ACG will scan it
I'm loving Engels instead


----------



## Sue (Sep 28, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Where the new edition of _Stormy Petrel_ will be available in hard copy too.


I only do PDFs.


----------



## Sue (Sep 28, 2021)

Thread ban for chilango 😡.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> And though the stall offers me protection
> A pamphlet and affection
> Whether I'm right or wrong
> And with Jackdaw
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2021)

Sue said:


> Thread ban for chilango 😡.


Top Marx more like


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Rhyddical's own appearance on that show was less of a triumph: "Your subject is the event that you're organising. Tell us something, if you will..."


More of a long, unresolved game of Mornington Crescent from _ISIHAC_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Top Marx more like


_The Anarchocoanuts_, perhaps


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> They'll be told in no uncertain terms to leave the capitol.


Almost fell for that.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 28, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Dave is definitely the stand out candidate on this thread for Marcus Brigstock's understudy on _Just A Minute
> 
> "Your subject is Rhyddical's obfuscation. Tell us something, if you will, Dave, without hesitation, repetition or deviation...."_


There's definitely a mirror universe film, in which Rhyddical2 answers all questions crisply and fully.  In the final scene, he spits out his catchphrase, '_you couldn't handle the truth!'._


----------



## Wilf (Sep 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Rhyddical's own appearance on that show was less of a triumph: "Your subject is the event that you're organising. Tell us something, if you will..."


The other panelists got him on repetition twice, hesitation thrice and deviation one hundred and forty six times. It's what killed Nicholas Parsons off.


----------



## A380 (Sep 28, 2021)

Wilf said:


> There's definitely a mirror universe film, in which Rhyddical2 answers all questions crisply and fully.  In the final scene, he spits out his catchphrase, '_you couldn't handle the truth!'._


He eats his breakfast 500 meters from 3000 Anarchists who are trained to grill him…


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 28, 2021)

This sort of bullying is what makes the bookfair so unsafe


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 28, 2021)

Pretty mild compared with the fisty cuffs that actually happen over less.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 29, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Pretty mild compared with the fisty cuffs that actually happen over less.


Bringing a fork to a Spoons fight


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 29, 2021)

I think _Carry On Up The Bookfair_ is the clearly the best and most accurate, tho to be fair, delighted to remind everyone they day went fairly smoothly and despite the palathra from this thread and the back channel chit chat, there was a lack of real drama on the day, something I hope we can make a tradition, as let's face it, tho some of us joke about fights down spoons and all that, that kind of shit really does the movement harm and it something that stops a lot of folk from engaging from outside "the scene" or whatever and frankly, It's those people I personal want to get coming to bookfair, the fellow workers who pissed of at the state don't have a political voice or maybe their compass is starting to settle and up for learning more.

We'll be having our little after action chinwag this week tying up loose ends and all that, in which I'm sure, we'll address this mess and ensure in future the colllective addresses this things much earlier and it's members incapacity to deliver crisp and clear messages without having to resort to circumlocution to to keep to various agreements. Genuinely hope it's not a thing next year and we can all laugh about it as the "_Carry On Up The Bookfair_" episode. We've got Manc Bookfair coming up and more After Sessions, the next on I believe is with some Tigrayans, tho we might fit in one with the visiting Zapatista comrades, we're also uploading the digital sessions to Kolektiva.media (anarchistbookfairlondon) so check that out.

The one from Kopi we just uploaded:








						KÖPI Wagenplatz (2021 Sessions)
					

Køpi’s autonomous trailer park in Berlin currently under an immediate threat of eviction Køpi is 31 years old autonomous space in the heart of Berlin. Apart from being a home to around 100 people residing across a building and a trailer park, it also regularly hosts concerts, events and is a hub...




					kolektiva.media


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I think _Carry On Up The Bookfair_ is the clearly the best and most accurate, tho to be fair, delighted to remind everyone they day went fairly smoothly and despite the palathra from this thread and the back channel chit chat, there was a lack of real drama on the day, something I hope we can make a tradition, as let's face it, tho some of us joke about fights down spoons and all that, that kind of shit really does the movement harm and it something that stops a lot of folk from engaging from outside "the scene" or whatever and frankly, It's those people I personal want to get coming to bookfair, the fellow workers who pissed of at the state don't have a political voice or maybe their compass is starting to settle and up for learning more.
> 
> We'll be having our little after action chinwag this week tying up loose ends and all that, in which I'm sure, we'll address this mess and ensure in future the colllective addresses this things much earlier and it's members incapacity to deliver crisp and clear messages without having to resort to circumlocution to to keep to various agreements. Genuinely hope it's not a thing next year and we can all laugh about it as the "_Carry On Up The Bookfair_" episode. We've got Manc Bookfair coming up and more After Sessions, the next on I believe is with some Tigrayans, tho we might fit in one with the visiting Zapatista comrades, we're also uploading the digital sessions to Kolektiva.media (anarchistbookfairlondon) so check that out.
> 
> ...


Is palathra the covfefe of the anarchist movement?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> I think _Carry On Up The Bookfair_ is the clearly the best and most accurate, tho to be fair, delighted to remind everyone they day went fairly smoothly and despite the palathra from this thread and the back channel chit chat, there was a lack of real drama on the day, something I hope we can make a tradition, as let's face it, tho some of us joke about fights down spoons and all that, that kind of shit really does the movement harm and it something that stops a lot of folk from engaging from outside "the scene" or whatever and frankly, It's those people I personal want to get coming to bookfair, the fellow workers who pissed of at the state don't have a political voice or maybe their compass is starting to settle and up for learning more.
> 
> We'll be having our little after action chinwag this week tying up loose ends and all that, in which I'm sure, we'll address this mess and ensure in future the colllective addresses this things much earlier and it's members incapacity to deliver crisp and clear messages without having to resort to circumlocution to to keep to various agreements. Genuinely hope it's not a thing next year and we can all laugh about it as the "_Carry On Up The Bookfair_" episode. We've got Manc Bookfair coming up and more After Sessions, the next on I believe is with some Tigrayans, tho we might fit in one with the visiting Zapatista comrades, we're also uploading the digital sessions to Kolektiva.media (anarchistbookfairlondon) so check that out.
> 
> ...


I think you'd have done nothing to defend or support the people nicked at the battle of holloway road


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 29, 2021)

Would the drama been from the ACG or those kicking off at the ACG? If the latter (which it would have been), then it’s perverse to ban the ACG for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Would the drama been from the ACG or those kicking off at the ACG? If the latter (which it would have been), then it’s perverse to ban the ACG for it.


The organisers prefer the term counter-intuitive


----------



## Rhyddical (Sep 30, 2021)

Sharing for those might of missed the sessions and have a disconnect/don't follow our socials.

Tech-Tools For Security And Anonymity: An Introduction (2021 Sessions)









						Tech-Tools For Security And Anonymity: An Introduction (2021 Sessions)
					

This workshop gives a soft introduction to online privacy and free and open-source software (FOSS) tools available for you to improve your online security and anonymity. You can download the presentation here: https://anarchistbookfair.london/uploads/groups/1/presentation_v1.2.pdf...




					kolektiva.media


----------



## Rhyddical (Oct 7, 2021)

Our next session to go up..

"What is the Anarchist Studies Network?" 

This was a really good session, with quite a few speakers talking about what they do personally, theory and practice and well worth settling in with a brew or two for.

(Apologies for some minor issues with the recording/audio on this here) 









						What Is The Anarchist Studies Network (2021 Sessions)
					

This interactive event briefly introduces the Anarchist Studies Network, what it does, aims to do, and what it isn’t. The larger part of the event provides a forum for participants to briefly discuss their work and motivations and to open up discussion on the merits and merits of and...




					kolektiva.media


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Rhyddical said:


> Our next session to go up..
> 
> "What is the Anarchist Studies Network?"
> 
> ...



Discussing a future discussion lol. Not sure who their target audience is but it doesn’t appear to be me. That aside, I found what Eric was saying to be interesting. Can I get a link or pointer to his work on the state?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Is it this person? Looks kind of different.









						Eric Larson - PM Press
					

Eric Larson is assistant professor at the University of Massachusetts–Dartmouth. Book events Reviews More from Eric Jobs with Justice: 25 Years, 25 Voices SKU: 9781604867466Editor: Eric Larson • Preface by Larry Cohen and contributions by Rev. Calvin Morris, Ph.D. and Sarita Gupta Publisher: PM...



					blog.pmpress.org


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 7, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is it this person? Looks kind of different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cba actually listening to that/watching to check, but could it be this guy? Similar-sounding name, know he has a new book out so makes sense he'd be doing panels?








						The Operating System
					

The Operating System One of the most unique aspects of anarchism as a political philosophy is that it seeks to abolish the state. But what exactly is “the state”? The State is like a vast operating system for ordering and controlling relations




					www.akpress.org
				





			https://twitter.com/ericlaursen?lang=en


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Cba actually listening to that/watching to check, but could it be this guy? Similar-sounding name, know he has a new book out so makes sense he'd be doing panels?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. Thanks. I had the info, you didn’t but that is what I wanted to know. Cheers very muchly.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Seems to be in the US only. Hopefully Freedom get it in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seems to be in the US only. Hopefully Freedom get it in.


or you could order it from ak The Operating System: An Anarchist Theory of the Modern State - AKUK the European home of AK Press and Distribution


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> or you could order it from ak The Operating System: An Anarchist Theory of the Modern State - AKUK the European home of AK Press and Distribution



It doesn’t work on my phone so will try on PC later. No PayPal option which is a bit old fashioned and £5.40 delivery?


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 7, 2021)

People could evaluate it before buying it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> People could evaluate it before buying it.



Oh. Cheers. I don’t care about spending money for politics stuff although £5.40 delivery bumps it up a fair bit.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> or you could order it from ak The Operating System: An Anarchist Theory of the Modern State - AKUK the European home of AK Press and Distribution


Could I get a cheaper version written by an 14 year old  internal migrant worker in China?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It doesn’t work on my phone so will try on PC later. No PayPal option which is a bit old fashioned and £5.40 delivery?


or become a Friend of AK and have all their books delivered to you


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

A380 said:


> Could I get a cheaper version written by an 14 year old  internal migrant worker in China?


i'll ask in the sweat shop


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> or become a Friend of AK and have all their books delivered to you



Like a subscription? I’ll check it out.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

A380 said:


> Could I get a cheaper version written by an 14 year old  internal migrant worker in China?



Ouch. I actually prefer kindle and don’t mind paying money.


----------



## rich! (Oct 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> or become a Friend of AK and have all their books delivered to you


now if they did a "premium" version where they emailed epubs to you, that would solve several problems...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

rich! said:


> now if they did a "premium" version where they emailed epubs to you, that would solve several problems...


pluto do that


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Or just buy the book in Freedom. £5.60 is half the price of the book so it shoots from £12 to £18.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seems to be in the US only. Hopefully Freedom get it in.


Message me an email address and I'll send you a copy


----------



## brogdale (Oct 25, 2021)

"...some anarchists..."


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 25, 2021)

Fascists lol.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 25, 2021)

Christ, the AF can’t write for shit these days.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 25, 2021)

Also Magnus McGinty - probably too late now, but for future reference AK UK have this note on their homepage (not on mobile site though):

Postage fees: We are trying to work out a method where it lands around what it costs. It was too low, now it sometimes too high.  If it is much more than the actual cost I will either reduce the total charged on your card or refund your Paypal - we are not aiming to make money on the postage.  A small book will usually be less than £3, a large book less than £4 and a tracked box is £8 if you are buying a few things.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 25, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Christ, the AF can’t write for shit these days.


All its politically astute members jumped ship a while back.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 25, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also Magnus McGinty - probably too late now, but for future reference AK UK have this note on their homepage (not on mobile site though):
> 
> Postage fees: We are trying to work out a method where it lands around what it costs. It was too low, now it sometimes too high.  If it is much more than the actual cost I will either reduce the total charged on your card or refund your Paypal - we are not aiming to make money on the postage.  A small book will usually be less than £3, a large book less than £4 and a tracked box is £8 if you are buying a few things.



Not sure how that relates to the fascists accusations though? There’s many monsters depending on your position but fascism may not be it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 25, 2021)

Is impugnant Terf ideology is to Trans activism is and vice versa, neither are actually calling for fascism.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 25, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Christ, the AF can’t write for shit these days.


Yes, without wishing to dox anyone I get the impression the admin of that account may also be a sometime poster on this thread? But yes, it would be nice if they could get a second member to proofread that person's posts to get them to read a little bit less like gibberish.


Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure how that relates to the fascists accusations though? There’s many monsters depending on your position but fascism may not be it.


I mean, I don't think AK Press's postage policies have very much to do with fascism at all? If we're going to discuss the Judith Butler article, then probably best to actually discuss the Judith Butler article rather than an AF twitter post about a Pink Peacock twitter post that has a screenshot of it:








						Why is the idea of ‘gender’ provoking backlash the world over? | Judith Butler
					

Increasingly, authoritarians are likening ‘genderism’ to ‘communism’ and ‘totalitarianism’




					www.theguardian.com
				



The actual examples Butler starts off with involve new laws in places such as Hungary, Poland, Romania and Turkey. I think there's fair debate to be had about whether it's accurate or helpful to describe Orban or Erdogan as fascist as such, but they're at least far-right adjacent, no?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Yes, without wishing to dox anyone I get the impression the admin of that account may also be a sometime poster on this thread? But yes, it would be nice if they could get a second member to proofread that person's posts to get them to read a little bit less like gibberish.
> 
> I mean, I don't think AK Press's postage policies have very much to do with fascism at all? If we're going to discuss the Judith Butler article, then probably best to actually discuss the Judith Butler article rather than an AF twitter post about a Pink Peacock twitter post that has a screenshot of it:
> 
> ...


I would probably describe Erdogan as not a million miles away. I think I've misread a few steps here.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 25, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I would probably describe Erdogan as not a million miles away. I think I've misread a few steps here.


Oh, and Bolsonaro as well, of course. I generally think people should probably read the whole article properly (which I haven't, I've just skim-read it, but it looks fairly sound on first skimming) before deciding what the argument it's making is. Obv that AF twitter post is a bit on the gibberish side, but I reckon Butler's argument is probably worth engaging with - the only thing it seems to be saying about TERF/GC types is right at the end:
"That is why it makes no sense for “gender critical” feminists to ally with reactionary powers in targeting trans, non-binary, and genderqueer people. Let’s all get truly critical now, for this is no time for any of the targets of this movement to be turning against one another. The time for anti-fascist solidarity is now."
Which again seems reasonable enough to me.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Oh, and Bolsonaro as well, of course. I generally think people should probably read the whole article properly (which I haven't, I've just skim-read it, but it looks fairly sound on first skimming) before deciding what the argument it's making is. Obv that AF twitter post is a bit on the gibberish side, but I reckon Butler's argument is probably worth engaging with - the only thing it seems to be saying about TERF/GC types is right at the end:
> "That is why it makes no sense for “gender critical” feminists to ally with reactionary powers in targeting trans, non-binary, and genderqueer people. Let’s all get truly critical now, for this is no time for any of the targets of this movement to be turning against one another. The time for anti-fascist solidarity is now."
> Which again seems reasonable enough to me.


I don't have time to reply to you properly on this, and I haven't had time to respond properly to other posts on other threads on related issues. But there is nothing reasonable about lumping in fascists with GC feminists in any kind of generic way. Butler's article does this throughout, conflating being GC with being anti LBGTQ+. This is nonsense. The idea that the likes of Helen Steel, Linda Bellos, Bea Campbell etc are fascist or fascist leaning is just crap.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 25, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I don't have time to reply to you properly on this, and I haven't had time to respond properly to other posts on other threads on related issues. But there is nothing reasonable about lumping in fascists with GC feminists in any kind of generic way. Butler's article does this throughout, conflating being GC with being anti LBGTQ+. This is nonsense. The idea that the likes of Helen Steel, Linda Bellos, Bea Campbell etc are fascist or fascist leaning is just crap.


When you have the time, I would be interested to see which bits of that article you think are refering to Steel/Bellos/Campbell and co, because it seems to me like the vast majority of it is more concerned with the likes of Orban, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Duda, the Vatican, and so on, with the exception of that one paragraph I quoted right at the end.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 25, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I don't have time to reply to you properly on this, and I haven't had time to respond properly to other posts on other threads on related issues. But there is nothing reasonable about lumping in fascists with GC feminists in any kind of generic way. Butler's article does this throughout, conflating being GC with being anti LBGTQ+. This is nonsense. The idea that the likes of Helen Steel, Linda Bellos, Bea Campbell etc are fascist or fascist leaning is just crap.



That's Linda Bellos who flew to the US to join the evangelical funded WoLF protests outside a court case aimed at protecting LGBT workplace rights?  Not a fascist herself perhaps, but quite prepared to stand with and co-operate with the extreme right wing when it helps her crusade against Trans people.   As are many other supposedly left wing gender criticals, there are countless examples.  

And Butler does not conflate fascists with gender critical activism.  She barely even mentions them until the last sentence, which is a plea for solidarity against the far right.  She is talking about the anti-gender ideology movement, which has been active and dangerous in many parts of the world now and which anyone whose interest in feminism extended outside the middle class media bubble on terf island would be familiar with and concerned about.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 26, 2021)

Isn't requiring coherently expressed thought a bit condescending?


----------



## LDC (Oct 26, 2021)

kenny g said:


> Isn't requiring coherently expressed thought a bit condescending?



Could be, depends on the context and way it's done. Expecting a reasonable level of coherence and ability for it to be intelligible in the public communications of a national org (or when speaking/writing on behalf of one) is pretty reasonable I'd say though.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 26, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Could be, depends on the context and way it's done. Expecting a reasonable level of coherence and ability for it to be intelligible in the public communications of a national org (or when speaking/writing on behalf of one) is pretty reasonable I'd say though.


Thank you for the clarification 🤗


----------



## LDC (Oct 26, 2021)

Could probably argue I was hoisted by my own petard there.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 26, 2021)

kenny g said:


> Isn't requiring coherently expressed thought a bit condescending?


Can we have a stall?
- No.  

Scarpers.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 1, 2021)

The Manchester Bookfair is this weekend, has published their list of stalls:


			Stalls – Manchester & Salford Anarchist Bookfair 2023
		

And list of talks/events, which is a bit shorter and a tad on the eccentric side:


			Talks – Manchester & Salford Anarchist Bookfair 2023


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> The Manchester Bookfair is this weekend, has published their list of stalls:
> 
> 
> Stalls – Manchester & Salford Anarchist Bookfair 2023
> ...


nice to see the acg listed


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> The Manchester Bookfair is this weekend, has published their list of stalls:
> 
> 
> Stalls – Manchester & Salford Anarchist Bookfair 2023
> ...








> *12noon-1pm: Julian Langer Feral Life: Meditations on Rewilding and Anarchy*
> 
> ‘Ontological death chant aimed at the belly of this eco phagic, blood soaked juggernaut of a civilisation and a philosophical love poem intent on answering the healing seduction that wild nature sings to our fettered beings. His insistance on clarity, beauty and absurdity is refreshing and vital to these troubled times. Essential reading for anyone bent on outliving leviathans fetid touch.” Simon Bramwell, co-founder of Extinction Rebellion’



They’ll be hanging from the rafters for that


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 1, 2021)

I'm very disappointed by the cover for that one, I feel like a properly bonkers book should at least have an appropriate cover, whereas this is just:





The design doesn't really scream "feral wildness!" to me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm very disappointed by the cover for that one, I feel like a properly bonkers book should at least have an appropriate cover, whereas this is just:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


don't judge a book by... oh, who am i kidding


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm very disappointed by the cover for that one, I feel like a properly bonkers book should at least have an appropriate cover, whereas this is just:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 1, 2021)

A great improvement, you should send it in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2021)

sadly i have to do a spot of work now

e2a: done


----------



## nogojones (Nov 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 295097


I'd buy that pdf


----------



## rekil (Nov 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> *12noon-1pm: Julian Langer Feral Life: Meditations on Rewilding and Anarchy*
> 
> ‘Ontological death chant aimed at the belly of this eco phagic, blood soaked juggernaut of a civilisation and a philosophical love poem intent on answering the healing seduction that wild nature sings to our fettered beings. His insistance on clarity, beauty and absurdity is refreshing and vital to these troubled times. Essential reading for anyone bent on outliving leviathans fetid touch.” Simon Bramwell, co-founder of Extinction Rebellion’
> 
> They’ll be hanging from the rafters for that


Quite a character. Them squares in their 'houses'.



Spoiler


----------



## LDC (Nov 1, 2021)

Anti-civilisation anarchist feral re-wilding, BBC 2 at 6.30pm.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 1, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Anti-civilisation anarchist feral re-wilding, BBC 2 at 6.30pm.



Here's an exclusive preview:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 1, 2021)

Was this the thing that was mildly mocked on _Gogglebox_ recently? A (literal) tree hugger in a rambling variation on _Come Dine With Me_ or _Four In A Bed_?


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 1, 2021)

rekil said:


> Quite a character. Them squares in their 'houses'.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 1, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Was this the thing that was mildly mocked on _Gogglebox_ recently? A (literal) tree hugger in a rambling variation on _Come Dine With Me_ or _Four In A Bed_?


I think you might be right.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm very disappointed by the cover for that one, I feel like a properly bonkers book should at least have an appropriate cover, whereas this is just:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, but he feeds the pigeons and gets an enormous sense of wellbeing.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 2, 2021)

Derry Radical Bookfair confirmed for early 2022:


Will the ACG get a stall? Will the organisers pay for the PDX Litter Bloc to fly over and give us an explanation of the theory and practice of littering? Start speculating now!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Derry Radical Bookfair confirmed for early 2022:
> 
> 
> Will the ACG get a stall? Will the organisers pay for the PDX Litter Bloc to fly over and give us an explanation of the theory and practice of littering? Start speculating now!


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Derry Radical Bookfair confirmed for early 2022:
> 
> 
> Will the ACG get a stall? Will the organisers pay for the PDX Litter Bloc to fly over and give us an explanation of the theory and practice of littering? Start speculating now!



We’ve had a stall there before. They’re sound.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 2, 2021)

How the hell's the ontological death chant lad going to cross the water to Derry?  Maybe he'll be borne up by his sea creature allies? Definitely wants to avoid the eco-phagic juggernaut (Ryanair).


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 2, 2021)

Wilf said:


> How the hell's the ontological death chant lad going to cross the water to Derry?  Maybe he'll be borne up by his sea creature allies? Definitely wants to avoid the eco-phagic juggernaut (Ryanair).


Can you do feral rewilding over zoom?


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 6, 2021)

Did anyone make it down today?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 6, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Did anyone make it down today?




We didn’t make it from Glasgow, though. We’ve had a thing.


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 4, 2021)

No idea where we'll be in two weeks' time and if it'll still be possible to have indoor events then, but if it is, there's meant to be another bookfair happening in Bristol:


			Postponed until February! (Bristol Radical Bookfair – Subvert Santa!) | Alternative Bristol


----------



## petee (Dec 4, 2021)

Wilf said:


> the ontological death chant lad



nobody's ever called me an ontological death chant lad


----------



## Wilf (Dec 4, 2021)

petee said:


> nobody's ever called me an ontological death chant lad


----------



## krink (Dec 8, 2021)

There's a bookfair planned for Newcastle which I could get to but no ACG. I had hoped to be able to pick up loads of ACG stuff that I can't be arsed to order online. That's not good, I'll have to spend all my money in the pub with the other dinosaurs.



Bookfair in Toon


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 8, 2021)

krink said:


> There's a bookfair planned for Newcastle which I could get to but no ACG. I had hoped to be able to pick up loads of ACG stuff that I can't be arsed to order online. That's not good, I'll have to spend all my money in the pub with the other dinosaurs.
> 
> View attachment 299814
> 
> Bookfair in Toon


No worries, just paypal me £100 and I guarantee I will send you a pdf of something or other.  Should be able to get some off the Active or Freedom stalls? Or maybe there'll be ACG (and indeed a fair few other) stalls confirmed between now and then?

Anyway, as far as I can see this looks like it's still meant to be going ahead on the 19th, although fuck knows where we'll be with covid/lockdown by then: 


Although even with my very poor grasp of geography I realise that Bristol's probably not the most convenient place to get to from the northeast.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Athough even with my very poor grasp of geography I realise that Bristol's probably not the most convenient place to get to from the northeast.


Just set the satnav for Peppa Pig World and then hang a right 👍


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 8, 2021)

krink said:


> There's a bookfair planned for Newcastle which I could get to but no ACG. I had hoped to be able to pick up loads of ACG stuff that I can't be arsed to order online. That's not good, I'll have to spend all my money in the pub with the other dinosaurs.
> 
> View attachment 299814
> 
> Bookfair in Toon


We've got a special offer on publications at the moment (until the 7th January I think). Details on our website. Ordering from us online shouldn't be too bad either tbh.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2021)

AmateurAgitator said:


> We've got a special offer on publications at the moment (until the 7th January I think). Details on our website. Ordering from us online shouldn't be too bad either tbh.











						Black and Red December: Festive Compendium - Anarchist Communist Group
					

This is your chance to get all the ACG pamphlets as well as the latest Stormy Petrel in one special offer. The ACG is one of the main publishers of accessible and affordable anarchist material on a range of topics, both historical and current. Benefiting from the collective input of our members...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org
				




What’s that, gentleman at the back? You’ve never seen such a great deal and you’re giving the bundle as Christmas presents?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Black and Red December: Festive Compendium - Anarchist Communist Group
> 
> 
> This is your chance to get all the ACG pamphlets as well as the latest Stormy Petrel in one special offer. The ACG is one of the main publishers of accessible and affordable anarchist material on a range of topics, both historical and current. Benefiting from the collective input of our members...
> ...


🎵 FIVE PEEEEE-DEEEEE-EFFFFFS 🎶


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> 🎵 FIVE PEEEEE-DEEEEE-EFFFFFS 🎶


Don’t start with that partridge stuff. 😡


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 8, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Don’t start with that partridge stuff. 😡


"Lyn! These are especifismo people!" etc etc


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 21, 2022)

Derry coming up soonish:








						BACK WITH A BANG: RADICAL BOOKFAIR TO TAKE  PLACE IN THE BOGSIDE AGAIN
					






					derryanarchists.blogspot.com


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 6, 2022)

Anyone remember which tankie group it was used to pitch up outside the bookfair ritually each year?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2022)

The non-tankie International Communist Current used to do that?


----------



## nastyned (Mar 6, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The non-tankie International Communist Current used to do that?


Non-tankie SPGB too.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 6, 2022)

Yeah, I would've thought ICC and SPGB were the most regular, as far as groups who could reasonably be described as tankie go I could believe RCG/FRFI might do?


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 7, 2022)

Non-tankie CWO have been there too.


----------



## nastyned (Mar 7, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Non-tankie CWO have been there too.


The CWO are on the inside now.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 21, 2022)

Roll up, roll up, get yer bookfairs here:








						The 2022 Anarchist Bookfairs list
					

Last year saw the first tentative efforts to restart physical anarchist bookfairs amid the Covid crisis, with some success in places like Bradford, London, Manchester and even Stonehenge, and this …




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## nastyned (Apr 21, 2022)

Can the ACG have a stall?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 21, 2022)

nastyned said:


> Can the ACG have a stall?





> "Registration to host an Antiuni event or run a Bookfair stall will open in the summer."



Too early to call. Let's hope so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Too early to call. Let's hope so.


they've been put on the red and blacklist


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 21, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Too early to call. Let's hope so.


You have to be Pretty Damn Fast to book a pitch before they all go


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 21, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> You have to be Pretty Damn Fast to book a pitch before they all go


Refreshing the website constantly until it goes live, elaborate ticket tout cartels, rumours of a comrade from Leighton Buzzard who knows someone who knows someone...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 21, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Refreshing the website constantly until it goes live, elaborate ticket tout cartels, rumours of a comrade from Leighton Buzzard who knows someone who knows someone...


Exactly - PDF or GTFO 🤷


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 21, 2022)

nastyned said:


> Can the ACG have a stall?


Next bookfair coming up is Glasgow, so you'd have to ask the Glasgow organisers. Might be difficult though, I hear that Danny fucking hates the ACG.


----------



## Nigel (Apr 21, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Anyone remember which tankie group it was used to pitch up outside the bookfair ritually each year?


The IBT usually had/have stalls and although they look and come across as Tankie; with bizzare political positions from, 'inter-generational sex' to 'military support for Isil-Daesh' they're ex-Sparts; Out Sparting the Sparts.
What's alwys surprised me is that AWL got/get away with it with No Sweat campaign!


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Next bookfair coming up is Glasgow, so you'd have to ask the Glasgow organisers. Might be difficult though, I hear that Danny fucking hates the ACG.


The main room is pretty much full, but there might be room in the loaby.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 21, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Exactly - PDF or GTFO 🤷


My branch secretary rang me up at 5 this afternoon to ask me a question about how to save a PDF and attach it to an email. #anarchosyndicalism #malatesta #ontologicaldeathchant


----------



## Dom Traynor (Apr 21, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> The main room is pretty much full, but there might be room in the loaby.


Is that how you say lobby in Scots?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 21, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Is that how you say lobby in Scots?


Aye.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Apr 21, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Aye.


Ta


----------

