# Are the police right to use rubber bullets on rioters?



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 9, 2011)

A copper has suggested that the use of rubber bullets (cleverly called baton rounds which nicely disguises the fact that a gun is being shot) could be authorised tonight on rioters. Does anyone believe this is justified and the right course of action to stop these riots?


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

Nope


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## grit (Aug 9, 2011)

Strange that this is thought of as such a big deal, its routine in the north (Ireland).

A recent interview in belfast I think made this comment ""Paradoxically the reluctance thus far to deploy the anti-riot control weapon only confirms the view in Northern Ireland especially in working class republican communities that there is one law for one side of the Irish Sea and one law for the other in the United Kingdom.""


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## TopCat (Aug 9, 2011)

Do a poll so a tally of cunts can be easily made.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

grit said:


> Strange that this is thought of as such a big deal, its routine in the north.


 
He asked if we thought it was justified though.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

It's an excellent idea.  As long A the cops want to whip up tensions, and ensure some kid is put into a morgue.


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## newme (Aug 9, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> A copper has suggested that the use of rubber bullets (cleverly called baton rounds which nicely disguises the fact that a gun is being shot) could be authorised tonight on rioters. Does anyone believe this is justified and the right course of action to stop these riots?



Depends entirely on what the 'rioter' is doing.


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## TopCat (Aug 9, 2011)

grit said:


> Strange that this is thought of as such a big deal, its routine in the north (Ireland).


So are water cannon. Strangely enough it's common for rioters there to discharge firearms at police. Do you want the ante upped like this?


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## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

Do the new boards still allow public polls? Haven't seen one so far? Still, I expect we can guess.....


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## gentlegreen (Aug 9, 2011)

I'd have thought water cannons would be a lot less likely to kill or maim someone ...


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Justified? Nah? Effective? Not likely? Potentially lethal? You betcha. Hugh Orde, head of the ACPO and one of few plod to actually deploy this in NI has said he think's it's a terrible idea to use rubber bullets and/or water-cannons.


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## Zabo (Aug 9, 2011)

Not at all but this would be justified.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 9, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Do a poll so a tally of cunts can be easily made.



Was thinking of letting the discussion run a bit before adding a poll.


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## 8115 (Aug 9, 2011)

Only if the police can't cope.

Oh....


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 9, 2011)

newme said:


> Depends entirely on what the 'rioter' is doing.



Care to give a few hypothetical scenarios in which you'd back shooting rioters with rubber bullets?


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## 8115 (Aug 9, 2011)

And also that was a joke.  No is my answer.  It's a terrible idea.


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## grit (Aug 9, 2011)

TopCat said:


> So are water cannon. Strangely enough it's common for rioters there to discharge firearms at police. Do you want the ante upped like this?



Heh, rubber bullets have been used in plenty of situations where there have been no firearms discharged by the rioters. I thought with your cheering of croydon being burnt to the ground you wouldnt put down anything that ups the ante!


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## Nigel (Aug 9, 2011)

Obviously I don't support t.
But another reason for not using this tactic from their perspective is that the tactics the 'rioters' are using smallish groups of about 100 and hit and run tactcs make it very difficult to target these groups without danger to the general public.
They have already murdered one young black man and screwed up the alibi, last thing that they want s even more egg on their face!


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## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

Water cannon? Totally ineffective - work ok at set pieces where the location of the rioters is known. But not vaery maneuverable and fuck all use in the kind of situation we saw last night.

Rubber bullets? Up the ante - ensure more Blakelocks every time a plod gets separated. Besides, how many riot guns have they got available? Not that many, I suspect.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> Water cannon? Totally ineffective - work ok at set pieces where the location of the rioters is known. But not vaery maneuverable and fuck all use in the kind of situation we saw last night.


Not to mention, how many would they have needed last nght?  At least two per incident (not that they'd work in any such incident, as you point out), which means, what, 30 odd?  There are only 6 in Belfast. They wouldn't get anywhere close to the vast majority of rioters, who'd all run off long before the things could be manouvered into position.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

Rubber bullets were the orginal version they were black and dildo shaped
 new generation are grey and flat faced.
 Over the wAter riots were much more violent and orgainised hence much more aggresive riot control techniques.
If the extra police don't stop it then it beats shooting people with live rounds.
    Once a mob is on the street it's stopped by force the soft power options are for later


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## moochedit (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> Do the new boards still allow public polls? Haven't seen one so far? Still, I expect we can guess.....



yes. it says under the poll if it is public, but you have to click on the number of votes to see the names though which confused me at first !


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## newme (Aug 9, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Care to give a few hypothetical scenarios in which you'd back shooting rioters with rubber bullets?



Basically in cases whereby it could possibly prevent loss of life. Groups attacking innocent members of the public/ to prevent someone setting a building with residents in on fire.


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## newme (Aug 9, 2011)

newme said:


> Basically in cases whereby it could possibly prevent loss of life. Groups attacking innocent members of the public/ to prevent someone setting a building with residents in on fire.



Frankly having thought about it. It would be only in extreme cases and almost completely unworkable as any kind of actual strategy.


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## roctrevezel (Aug 9, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> A copper has suggested that the use of rubber bullets (cleverly called baton rounds which nicely disguises the fact that a gun is being shot) could be authorised tonight on rioters. Does anyone believe this is justified and the right course of action to stop these riots?


 
It is fully justified on looters and arsonists.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> A copper has suggested that the use of rubber bullets (cleverly called baton rounds which nicely disguises the fact that a gun is being shot) could be authorised tonight on rioters. Does anyone believe this is justified and the right course of action to stop these riots?


 
Against bankers ? Oh yes !


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## frogwoman (Aug 9, 2011)

no.


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## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

newme said:


> Basically in cases whereby it could possibly prevent loss of life. Groups attacking innocent members of the public/ to prevent someone setting a building with residents in on fire.



i.e. never - unless every single plod carried a riot gun.

The kind of situation your talking about - likely to be all over by the time plod with riot guns can get there, even if there's a unit attached in every location where riot police are deployed (I seriously doubt the Met have the capacity for this).

(ETA: see you've thought about it some more - fair play)


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## Garek (Aug 9, 2011)

No. You end up killing people and inflaming the situation.


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## dylans (Aug 9, 2011)

There are red lines that once crossed will remain crossed. Mainland Britain has never seen the use of baton rounds and once they are used they will become a regular part of policing.

We are witnessing a crossroads moment right now I think. On the one hand these events give an excuse for Cameron to strengthen the state ahead of pushing on with his massive cuts programme. On the other hand it gives an opportunity for people to see the consequences of this governments austerity programme and to reenergise the fight to turn it around.These events are a direct consequence of this governments austerity programme and the cuts are going to get worse. We can thus expect social unrest to get worse.

The events of the last few days are a just indication of things to come if this government is allowed to get away with tearing up the welfare state. Despite all the calls to consider less and condemn more, this government knows this which is why it will draw the conclusion of the necessity to strengthen the hand of state. I fully expect baton rounds to be used, its a line this government will cross because it knows it needs them to impose more austerity on to an increasingly alienated population. Unfortunately, the clamor for order that will follow these riots will play right into his hand.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Obviously I don't support t.
> But another reason for not using this tactic from their perspective is that the tactics the 'rioters' are using smallish groups of about 100 and hit and run tactcs make it very difficult to target these groups without danger to the general public.
> They have already murdered one young black man and screwed up the alibi, last thing that they want s even more egg on their face!



Yep, this is why it seems an iffy idea to me also.

This isn't a political demonstration that needs to focus on a particular area to be effective. It's a networked swarm, that'll most likely just go burn/loot someplace else if the cops get too aggressive with them

Also, a bunch of hyped up cops firing baton rounds into city centre crowds doesn't seem like it's going to do more than pander to the sordid punitive fantasies of Daily Mail readers and with around one in five people hit with baton rounds suffering permanent disabilities, it doesn't seem like a terribly sensible idea.


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## dylans (Aug 9, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> It is fully justified on looters and arsonists.



They won't just be used on looters and arsonists though. They will be used on the next anti cuts demo that kicks off


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## roctrevezel (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> i.e. never - unless every single plod carried a riot gun.
> 
> The kind of situation your talking about - likely to be all over by the time plod with riot guns can get there, even if there's a unit attached in every location where riot police are deployed (I seriously doubt the Met have the capacity for this).
> 
> (ETA: see you've thought about it some more - fair play)



The Met have plenty of riot guns as does every other British mainland force, they can fire baton rounds, (wrongly called rubber bullets, ) tear gas and other counter insurgency munitions. (I have a suspicion officers trained in their use have been "poached" from other forces by the Met for tonight.)


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> A copper has suggested that the use of rubber bullets (cleverly called baton rounds which nicely disguises the fact that a gun is being shot) could be authorised tonight on rioters. Does anyone believe this is justified and the right course of action to stop these riots?



Baton rounds (correct name because they're shaped like a stubby baton, btw!) weren't (IMO) a good idea when we used them against rioters in NI chucking cobbles, molotovs and blast bombs 30 years ago, so I certainly don't think they're a good idea now against people who're a lot more casual about their mayhem than their Ulster predecessors.


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## roctrevezel (Aug 9, 2011)

dylans said:


> They won't just be used on looters and arsonists though. They will be used on the next anti cuts demo that kicks off



I very much doubt that, unless it changes from peaceful protest to a riot.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

dylans said:


> They won't just be used on looters and arsonists though. They will be used on the next anti cuts demo that kicks off



Yep. Any draconian measures used over the next few days will no doubt also be used on peaceful eco-hippies next time they protest about something inconvenient to the City.


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## dylans (Aug 9, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> I very much doubt that, unless it changes from peaceful protest to a riot.



Depends on your definition of "riot" though doesn't it? The last few student demonstrations involved property damage and fighting with police. Do you honestly think that baton rounds wouldn't have been used if they were available?


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

They _did_ consider using rubber bullets on one mainland demo, iirr, came very close to doing so.  Downing Street Criminal Justice demo?


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

I'd prefer paintball guns, to allow snatch squads to ID those involved later.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Obviously I don't support t.
> But another reason for not using this tactic from their perspective is that the tactics the 'rioters' are using smallish groups of about 100 and hit and run tactcs make it very difficult to target these groups without danger to the general public.
> They have already murdered one young black man and screwed up the alibi, last thing that they want s even more egg on their face!



Sorry Nige, but even the plod can master the rudimentary tactics necessary to isolate a "smallish group of about 100" using "hit and run tactics" with the manpower at their disposal. All you need to do is make a funnel and then push them through, just as was done on a larger scale during some of the student riots.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> I'd prefer paintball guns, to allow snatch squads to ID those involved later.


because its physically impossible that any paint would miss the 'appropriate' target, isn't it? And equally impossible to remove your paint stained clothing a replace it with a new item from, say, FootLocker.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> I'd prefer paintball guns, to allow snatch squads to ID those involved later.



No it wouldn't.  Passersby would STILL get hit.

There isn't indelible paint that only targets the "guilty" --- you KNOW this !


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> They _did_ consider using rubber bullets on one mainland demo, iirr, came very close to doing so. Downing Street Criminal Justice demo?



Yep, lost their bottle at the last minute because they realised (as if there hadn't been evidence of it from Northern ireland for decades!  ) that deploying baton rounds in close urban conditions wasn't perhaps a sensible proposition given the force behind the bloody things.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 9, 2011)

Seconded on the paint.

Just now on TV watched a bunch of thugs rocking a van, others turning over a rubbish bin - police standing staring at them and doing nothing.


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> No it wouldn't. Passersby would STILL get hit.
> 
> There isn't indelible paint that only targets the "guilty" --- you KNOW this !



Passers by should stay the fuck away.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Passers by should stay the fuck away.



Genius !!!!

How on earth can folk "stay away" when they've no idea (just like plod) of where the trouble is ?


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Passers by should stay the fuck away.


what about workers escaping from a store that was being/about to be looted?

Or any random black person/youth that plod decides he doesn't like the look of.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Garek said:


> No. You end up killing people and inflaming the situation.



IIRC the British army in NI had a ratio of one civilian fatality per 120-odd baton rounds used, so yes, you *do* end up killing people (and that's before you count the fatalities from the cunt's tricks used by the Paras like sticking D cells in the barrel of the baton guns so they could "get 2 for the price of 1  ).


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## gentlegreen (Aug 9, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Genius !!!!
> 
> How on earth can folk "stay away" when they've no idea (just like plod) of where the trouble is ?



I had no trouble keeping away from the thugs who were trashing Stokes Croft a while back and I'm only a few miles away...


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Genius !!!!
> 
> How on earth can folk "stay away" when they've no idea (just like plod) of where the trouble is ?



I'd say hordes of looters might give them a clue.


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## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> Besides, how many riot guns have they got available? Not that many, I suspect.



They don't need them.

Bean-bag rounds can be fired through standard 12-gauge shotguns.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> It's an excellent idea. As long A the cops want to whip up tensions, and ensure some kid is put into a morgue.


Indeed.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> I'd have thought water cannons would be a lot less likely to kill or maim someone ...



Nope, they're high-pressure enough that they can break bones and push your eyes into the back of the orbital socket, temporarily or permanently blinding you.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, they're high-pressure enough that they can break bones and push your eyes into the back of the orbital socket, temporarily or permanently blinding you.


There one of those things that _sound_ fun until you look at the evidence.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> They don't need them.
> 
> Bean-bag rounds can be fired through standard 12-gauge shotguns.



And the same problems as with baton rounds pertain, despite them being sold as a humane "non-lethal" option.


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> I had no trouble keeping away from the thugs who were trashing Stokes Croft a while back and I'm only a few miles away...



Yes (& to pk ---- can't work out the multi-quote yet)

These are groups of young fit mobile (on bikes it seems) kids. Most of us don't move that fast !

You're getting carried away with the same kind of mass-hysteria you are castigating the looters for ffs !


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## N_igma (Aug 9, 2011)

It's only ok if it's belligerant taigs apparently!


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## roctrevezel (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> IIRC the British army in NI had a ratio of one civilian fatality per 120-odd baton rounds used, so yes, you *do* end up killing people (and that's before you count the fatalities from the cunt's tricks used by the Paras like sticking D cells in the barrel of the baton guns so they could "get 2 for the price of 1  ).



A D cell has a clearance of between 5mm and 8mm (depending on which model of riot gun) in the barrel and weighs 70grams, that would do some serious damage because it would tumble in the air.


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## Zabo (Aug 9, 2011)

dylans said:


> .These events are a direct consequence of this governments austerity programme and the cuts are going to get worse. We can thus expect social unrest to get worse.



I normally enjoy reading your posts and interesting ideas but in this instance no. You are talking like some second year social studies student. You'd get on well with Darcus Howe and his piss pot theories.

The cuts haven't yet bit. The present situation is about morality or rather moral nihilism. These fucking cunts have no political philosophy, they don't have a _cause célèbre_ or anything else to motivate them other than greed and the excitement from destruction. As such you shouldn't be categorising them as victims of the austerity measures - wrong though they are.

Since when was torching a shop with a family living above anything to do politics? What particular political philosophy embraces burning out businesses and putting people out of work? Which particular political paradigm includes burning down people houses?

The Marxist analysis would suggest that they see the wealthy consumers as being the actors on the stage while they, the poor fucking underclass, remain the passive audience yet want to be like those on the stage wearing all the designer clothes. Well there's an answer to that.

Poor show Dylan.


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## Nigel (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry Nige, but even the plod can master the rudimentary tactics necessary to isolate a "smallish group of about 100" using "hit and run tactics" with the manpower at their disposal. All you need to do is make a funnel and then push them through, just as was done on a larger scale during some of the student riots.


Yeah I see what you mean, could still be a bit dodgy for joe public though.


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## dylanredefined (Aug 9, 2011)

Really depends on what the rioters are doing.Just breaking stuff and looting no throwing Molotov cocktails yeah justified.


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## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> And the same problems as with baton rounds pertain, despite them being sold as a humane "non-lethal" option.



Well the advantages over the baton rounds that you used in NI are accuracy, they don't need to be bounced, and deployability, since they don't require a dedicated weapon to fire them. And of course they don't have hard edges!

Less range too.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Yep, this is why it seems an iffy idea to me also.
> 
> This isn't a political demonstration that needs to focus on a particular area to be effective. It's a networked swarm, that'll most likely just go burn/loot someplace else if the cops get too aggressive with them
> 
> Also, a bunch of hyped up cops firing baton rounds into city centre crowds doesn't seem like it's going to do more than pander to the sordid punitive fantasies of Daily Mail readers and with around one in five people hit with baton rounds suffering permanent disabilities, it doesn't seem like a terribly sensible idea.



I've seen "live" the effects of baton rounds, and I also attended a rather odd demonstration of their effectiveness, where ballistic gel was shot in order to give an idea of the degree of penetration of trauma. You're only very rarely going to walk away without needing to get a bone set or your abdomen x-rayed/scanned because you've taken a gut-strike (ruptured and bruised internal organs were fairly common).


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## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2011)

dylans said:


> There are red lines that once crossed will remain crossed. Mainland Britain has never seen the use of baton rounds and once they are used they will become a regular part of policing.
> 
> We are witnessing a crossroads moment right now I think. On the one hand these events give an excuse for Cameron to strengthen the state ahead of pushing on with his massive cuts programme. On the other hand it gives an opportunity for people to see the consequences of this governments austerity programme and to reenergise the fight to turn it around.These events are a direct consequence of this governments austerity programme and the cuts are going to get worse. We can thus expect social unrest to get worse.
> 
> The events of the last few days are a just indication of things to come if this government is allowed to get away with tearing up the welfare state. Despite all the calls to consider less and condemn more, this government knows this which is why it will draw the conclusion of the necessity to strengthen the hand of state. I fully expect baton rounds to be used, its a line this government will cross because it knows it needs them to impose more austerity on to an increasingly alienated population. Unfortunately, the clamor for order that will follow these riots will play right into his hand.



What ever the social and economic conditions are behind the looting you can't just let the Labour govt off the hook . They had the opportunity to tackle unemployment but in parts of every town in England working class youths have struggled.These events aren't a direct consequence of this government austerity programme but the anti working class actions of the last Labour government as well.


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## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Well the advantages over the baton rounds that you used in NI are accuracy, they don't need to be bounced, and deployability, since they don't require a dedicated weapon to fire them. And of course they don't have hard edges!
> 
> Less range too.



Just as much potential (according to their use in the US) for rupturing organs or blinding people, though.


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## N_igma (Aug 9, 2011)

If you look at that list of people killed by plastic bullets here you'll see the vast majority of victims are children or teenagers shot while walking along some road. Only a fucking cunt of the highest order would sanction the use of plastic bullets by the pig scum.


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## StanSmith (Aug 9, 2011)

I wouldnt mind if they used a machine gun on the little fuckers


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

N_igma said:


> If you look at that list of people killed by plastic bullets here you'll see the vast majority of victims are children or teenagers shot while walking along some road. Only a fucking cunt of the highest order would sanction the use of plastic bullets by the pig scum.



Except when used against looter scum.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Zabo said:


> I normally enjoy reading your posts and interesting ideas but in this instance no. You are talking like some second year social studies student. You'd get on well with Darcus Howe and his piss pot theories.
> 
> The cuts haven't yet bit.



More accurately, while the cuts haven't yet (or have only just) bitten on local authorities, many local authorities started "Passing on" the cuts to their populations 6 months or more ago, hence the already-evident effects on services. And, of course, it'll only get worse.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

Zabo said:


> I normally enjoy reading your posts and interesting ideas but in this instance no. You are talking like some second year social studies student. You'd get on well with Darcus Howe and his piss pot theories.
> 
> The cuts haven't yet bit. The present situation is about morality or rather moral nihilism. These fucking cunts have no political philosophy, they don't have a _cause célèbre_ or anything else to motivate them other than greed and the excitement from destruction. As such you shouldn't be categorising them as victims of the austerity measures - wrong though they are.
> 
> ...


oh dear, what simplistic tosh, dressed up with a few smart phrases.

Firstly, the cuts blatantly obviously _have_ bit. The youth centres are closed, the workers have been thrown on the dole. Sure, there's worse to come, but dont try and pretend they haven't already started. And the youth - 'unpolitical' as they may well be - know that full well.  They know that there will be no other opportunities in the next few years, that it will only get worse.  That's kinda why they're fucked off.  And that's why they _are_ victims of the cuts.

You _are_ getting somewhere when you speak of nihilism. that lack of future, that lack of positive alternative (whether that be a job, a decent place to hang out, a real political (or even religious) alternative) has no doubt led many of them to believe in nothing, but whose fault is that?

Well, now they are acting.  they're climbing onto the stage. Of course I'd rather they do something more constructive than merely shitting on said stage, but that's a response brought on by the despair of late capitalism, and a long long history of treating poor working-class youths, of all colours, like shit.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

N_igma said:


> It's only ok if it's belligerant taigs apparently!



Hadn't you already figured that out?


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## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just as much potential (according to their use in the US) for rupturing organs or blinding people, though.



Not at the same ranges from what I've seen. Sure a close range shot into the head or vital organs would cause problems, but so would a baton strike. What was the lethal range of a NI baton round? Those bean-bags completely run out of puff, out past 60 yards. The shells are just too small to contain the bag and a hefty charge. Have you got any info on the US use?


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

Yellow card was being noisy and refusing to clear off no baton rounds.
 Moderate rock throwing no baton rounds
intense rock throwing or petrol and blast bombs shoot some baton rounds till rock throwing returns to acceptable levels.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Except when used against looter scum.


or people in the general vicinity, for whatever reason.

How young a kid would you be happy to see killed, as long as they were 'looter scum'?


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## N_igma (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hadn't you already figured that out?



Lol knew that already. Least those water canons give us smelly fenians a good owl wash! Hard to beat


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> A D cell has a clearance of between 5mm and 8mm (depending on which model of riot gun) in the barrel and weighs 70grams, that would do some serious damage because it would tumble in the air.



Generally the battery would start splitting before it exited the barrel, from the examples I saw, but all that would have meant was you had a projectile with an unstable trajectory, which made it *more*, rather than less, dangerous.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> More accurately, while the cuts haven't yet (or have only just) bitten on local authorities, many local authorities started "Passing on" the cuts to their populations 6 months or more ago, hence the already-evident effects on services. And, of course, it'll only get worse.



Also, large scale multi-generation unemployment (for example) is not something that happened as a result of Cameron's cuts. It's something that happened as a result of 30 years of neo-liberal policies, of which Shiny Dave's cuts are only the latest symptom.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

Police have used baton rounds on the mainland mostly against nutters with knives.
 Tbf normal working class communities don't try to kill members of the police force or their neighbours.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 9, 2011)

Cuts haven't bitten on local authorities? Weird I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken who've lost their jobs over the last three months...


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## Zabo (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> Firstly, the cuts blatantly obviously _have_ bit. The youth centres are closed, the workers have been thrown on the dole. .



What makes you assume that the scrotes doing the torching and looting are the type that go to youth clubs? Risible.

Since when did youth clubs offer a panacea of the ills of adolescence and anti-social behaviour? Don't tell me, I worked in the profession for 35 years. There are more out than in.

Workers thrown on the dole? You mean you have all the data on the malcontents who have been thieving and burning down premises. That's a first.

Yet more fucking half-baked theories without any factual information. Well factual in the sense that the poor bastards you feel sorry for are making other people's lives a misery.

I fail to see how anybody can be an apologist for a bunch of cunts that trash their own community. Not Buckingham Palace, not Eton, not the House Of Lords or any other seat of inequality but their own community.

Strange reasoning.


----------



## sim667 (Aug 9, 2011)

If rubber bullets get brought out, rioters will get there guns out, everyone is well aware of that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Not at the same ranges from what I've seen. Sure a close range shot into the head or vital organs would cause problems, but so would a baton strike. What was the lethal range of a NI baton round? Those bean-bags completely run out of puff, out past 60 yards. The shells are just too small to contain the bag and a hefty charge. Have you got any info on the US use?



Data was, IIRC, 120 metres, so what, 140-ish yards? Of course at the extreme limit of the range, fatality would be less likely except for a freakish strike, but they happened.

US use-wise, I'll have to check back through my web-history, 'cos I read a quite good article that tallied up usage and consequences across quite a few states (a lot of the LEAs appear to use the same brand of non-lethal ammo). Fingers crossed I haven't cleared my history recently!

E2A: Of course, the Yanks also complicate things by using "non-lethal weapons systems" that fire larger-bore bean-bags, up to standard "grenade launcher round" size (40mm), which are decidedly *less* "non-lethal" than the 12-bore rounds.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

sim667 said:


> If rubber bullets get brought out, rioters will get there guns out, everyone is well aware of that



Balls.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Zabo said:


> <snip>
> apologist
> <snip>



Interesting how one can assess the honesty of an argument based on the use of that one word ...


----------



## sim667 (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Balls.



I think they're a bit beyond throwing pieces of exercise equipment at police tbf.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

Zabo said:


> ....
> 
> Strange reasoning.



lol, do you think everyone is too dumb to notice how you have shifted the goalposts suddenly? Once your points have been demolished, you claim you were saying something else all along? And that's before we get to the (rather flimsy) meant there is in your post. Do i know the rpecise soical make up of all those invovled at the moment? I know just as much as you, bugger all. But I will guarantee you that, alongside the fair number of NEETS who will be involved, there will have been loads who have/had jobs, are/were on EMA, or who had parents who had jobs, or had hoped to get EMA or a job at some point. _Show_ me I'm wrong.

oh, some info on those arrested, from the beeb:

32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.

 Among them were a graphic designer, college students, a youth worker, a university graduate and a man signed up to join the army. Some gave non-London addresses. Eighteen were remanded in custody.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

likesfish said:


> Yellow card was being noisy and refusing to clear off no baton rounds.
> Moderate rock throwing no baton rounds
> intense rock throwing or petrol and blast bombs shoot some baton rounds till rock throwing returns to acceptable levels.



Sounds about right.


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## trevhagl (Aug 9, 2011)

i remember Toxic Waste song and an interview in a zine that explained they were huge chunks of rubber the size of a fist not something you would picture being fired from a kids gun like the media make out. There will be more serious injuries/murder by old bill and that will spark even worse off


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## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Data was, IIRC, 120 metres, so what, 140-ish yards?



Yeah so they're a pretty powerful piece of kit then. At short range, only barely less-than-lethal I'd have thought. And you lot were probably bonking them into people at 30 or 40 yards! No?



> US use-wise, I'll have to check back through my web-history, 'cos I read a quite good article that tallied up usage and consequences across quite a few states (a lot of the LEAs appear to use the same brand of non-lethal ammo). Fingers crossed I haven't cleared my history recently!



I saw something on the bean bags not so long ago. I'll dig it up.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Zabo said:


> What makes you assume that the scrotes doing the torching and looting are the type that go to youth clubs? Risible.
> 
> Since when did youth clubs offer a panacea of the ills of adolescence and anti-social behaviour? Don't tell me, I worked in the profession for 35 years. There are more out than in.
> 
> ...



Interesting that you seem to think "youth clubs" and "youth centres" are the same thing and/or necessarily deal with the same people.

Why do I suspect that you were a habitue of "youth club" discos?


----------



## noodles (Aug 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> What ever the social and economic conditions are behind the looting you can't just let the Labour govt off the hook . They had the opportunity to tackle unemployment but in parts of every town in England working class youths have struggled.These events aren't a direct consequence of this government austerity programme but the anti working class actions of the last Labour government as well.



IMO the last Labour government are just as culpable if not more so. After all, they were in Government during the formative years of most of these kids. They have not turned into a looting, rioting underclass in the space of a year.


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## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> oh dear, what simplistic tosh, dressed up with a few smart phrases.
> 
> Firstly, the cuts blatantly obviously _have_ bit. The youth centres are closed, the workers have been thrown on the dole. Sure, there's worse to come, but dont try and pretend they haven't already started. And the youth - 'unpolitical' as they may well be - know that full well. They know that there will be no other opportunities in the next few years, that it will only get worse. That's kinda why they're fucked off. And that's why they _are_ victims of the cuts.
> 
> ...



Belboid this is nothing to do with youth centres closing. Where i agree with you  its about fifteen, twenty, thirty  years of the same estates being the same shit holes and the emergence of a culture which in many cases itself is neo liberal and anti community.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah so they're a pretty powerful piece of kit then. At short range, only barely less-than-lethal I'd have thought. And you lot were probably bonking them into people at 30 or 40 yards! No?



Part of the problem was (in my time, anyway), that they changed the rounds but took a while to modify the training guidelines, so you had 4-5 years of people using the training for one set of rounds (which were somewhat less lethal) on the newer rounds which were *supposedly* less lethal, but only if you deployed them properly. So yeah, 30-40 meters was common, and if used properly (i.e. deflected) that was fine. A direct shot, though? Fucking dangerous and potentially lethal.



> I saw something on the bean bags not so long ago. I'll dig it up.



Nice. haven't found anything yet, but there's 60 days of links to trawl through.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 9, 2011)

I probably went to the local youth club a total of twice when I was about 11 - it was full of other kids.  the wireless and some book or other seemed entirely preferable.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Belboid this is nothing to do with youth centres closing. Where i agree with you its about fifteen, twenty, thirty years of the same estates being the same shit holes and the emergence of a culture which in many cases itself is neo liberal and anti community.



It doesn't help if you close those places that offered alternatives to mooching around. Back when Tulse Hill school was still around, they had a youth centre there that provided education, training, mentoring etc to local youths who'd been excluded. When the school was demolished and "luxury housing" built on the site, Lambeth council took money from the developer that was intended to pay for new facilities/premises for the youth centre. They hung onto it instead.

Take a wild guess at the consequence of that.

The upside was that the council got monstered so throughly by locals that they coughed the money up and funded (at least for a few more years) a youth centre with similar facilities a bit further up toward Norwood.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Belboid this is nothing to do with youth centres closing.


I think the youth worker in court today may disagree with you slightly.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

Although you could go for the Israeli version literaly plastic m16 bullets they apprantly don't tumble so are classed as less lethal than conventional rounds don't think the idf actually grasped the concept but then again they think artillery counts as a precision weapon.
   Any sort of anti riot weapon that relies on kinetic energy is going to be dubiously.
I quite like the taser claymore think 100 tasers that can be fired all at once


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> What ever the social and economic conditions are behind the looting you can't just let the Labour govt off the hook . They had the opportunity to tackle unemployment but in parts of every town in England working class youths have struggled.These events aren't a direct consequence of this government austerity programme but the anti working class actions of the last Labour government as well.


damn right, in fact i'd condemn labour more, simply becuse the tories never make a pretence of being anything other than the enemy.


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

Zabo said:


> What makes you assume that the scrotes doing the torching and looting are the type that go to youth clubs? Risible.
> 
> Since when did youth clubs offer a panacea of the ills of adolescence and anti-social behaviour?


I can't speak for anywhere other than Totternham, but there IS a link between the decimation of the youth services budget in spring this year and these riots. Haringey's youth centres and other facilities used by tottenham youth were HUGELY popular, and even OB recognised them and local sports facilities as a major asset in keeping kids usefully occupied, and away from the guns and drugs and knives and above all gangs that blight the place. LB haringey were forced to cut that budget by 75% - so goodbye youth centres, leaving bored, rebellious teenagers with zip to do, and nowhere to go, on top of every other problem that goes with being the poorest part of London.
at the campaign meetings we had to try and stop that cut,m so many kids were in tears. It was heartbreaking.


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

back on-topic.
Interestingly, one of the few senior police officers to have authorised the use of plastic bullets doesn't think they should be deployed in the riots. I can't get the link to work, but in the guardian today, Sir Hugh Orde spoke out heavily against it.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

Tbf didn't see anything that couldn't be dealt with with a baton charge.
  If it was loads of petrol bombs and other munitions diffrent matter


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

sim667 said:


> If rubber bullets get brought out, rioters will get there guns out, everyone is well aware of that



Fine. Then make sure the highly trained snipers are in place. Any of these fucking plastic gangsters waving guns at cops deserves to be shot at.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

pk have a word with yourself when real life version of mike from spaced thinks your a prat 
you have a problem


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## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2011)

sim667 said:


> If rubber bullets get brought out, rioters will get there guns out, everyone is well aware of that



That's my biggest fear.


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## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

a good opportunity to rid society of those that will prisons for years to come I should think.

I hope rubber bullets get used and teach some of these morons a good lesson.  I shall pour a glass of wine and wait for sky news.


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## Dowie (Aug 9, 2011)

Going to be of limited use aside from appealing to the keyboard warrior types who seem to want the Army called in and all rioters shot or something along those lines..   they just needed more police on the ground to calm things down - no need to escalated the situation by shooting the odd kid with batton rounds.


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## bluestreak (Aug 9, 2011)

yawn.  lets get into an arms race shall we?  nah, i don't think so.  it'll have to get even worse than this, which lets face it, is still nothing more than a scuffle by the standards of many nations.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2011)

Exactly if the police can grip it tonight it's over. 
 Yesterday the talk of the army was reasonable having seen the police lose control.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

noodles said:


> IMO the last Labour government are just as culpable if not more so. After all, they were in Government during the formative years of most of these kids. They have not turned into a looting, rioting underclass in the space of a year.



Sure but we've had a succession of neo-liberal governments with (for this purpose) essentially the same polices for about 30 years ...


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> yawn. lets get into an arms race shall we? nah, i don't think so. it'll have to get even worse than this, which lets face it, is still nothing more than a scuffle by the standards of many nations.



Which lends weight to the increasing notion that this country has been too lenient with violent feral fucks for too long.
By the standards of many nations, that is.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

death to firebombers!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Which lends weight to the increasing notion that this country has been too lenient with violent feral fucks for too long.
> By the standards of many nations, that is.



If you like the policies of other nations so much, why don't you fuck off and live there, you red hippy scum?


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## bluestreak (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> Which lends weight to the increasing notion that this country has been too lenient with violent feral fucks for too long.
> By the standards of many nations, that is.



and yet, the getting rough technique doesn't seem to have solved social problems.  all that happens is people complain that they're not rough enough.  so perhaps a new approach might be worth trying, perhaps we need to look at the reasons people don't riot and work out how we can spread that to those that do.  it's, you know, _complicated_.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 10, 2011)

belboid said:


> death to firebombers!


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## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

It's an admission that they have ceded ground to use such measures. Competent police forces working with competent government shouldn't even need to break out horses let alone baton rounds. The illusion of consensual policing is shattered by breaking out the riot gear. A states job is to keep the proletariat if not contented then at least docile while keeping them working and maintaining a wealth flow upwards to the pockets of the power elites
They've fucked up. And the rubber bullet/baton rounds solution is evidence of that. It shows that they are well aware that even a sizable minority of us outweighs mr plod. In their place I would have done more than authorise rubber bullets. Because today it is dissafected youths on the rob. God help them if something caused it to spread to the adults and the moderates. Camerons got his riots in the second year of his first term- and there will be no convenient wars to save his arse like thatcher. We're already balls deep in places we should never have been in the first place.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 10, 2011)

dylans said:


> The events of the last few days are a just indication of things to come if this government is allowed to get away with tearing up the welfare state. .


\

I thought the riots were a response to the police shooting some guy dead?


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 10, 2011)

dylans said:


> The events of the last few days are a just indication of things to come if this government is allowed to get away with tearing up the welfare state.


Did you hear the interview with the thick teenager on the radio - demonstrating her profound knowledge of the political situation.

"...the shop owners iz rich, innit ?"


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## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> \
> 
> I thought the riots were a response to the police shooting some guy dead?


 
and the LA riots were solely about rodney king


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> and the LA riots were solely about rodney king



No, they were about the institutional racism that led to the beating of Rodney King, which appears to be similar to what is happening in the UK right now.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

you see where I'm going, clearly. Spark to a pile of dry wood.


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## Zabo (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I can't speak for anywhere other than Totternham, but there IS a link between the decimation of the youth services budget in spring this year and these riots. Haringey's youth centres and other facilities used by tottenham youth were HUGELY popular, and even OB recognised them and local sports facilities as a major asset in keeping kids usefully occupied, and away from the guns and drugs and knives and above all gangs that blight the place. LB haringey were forced to cut that budget by 75% - so goodbye youth centres, leaving bored, rebellious teenagers with zip to do, and nowhere to go, on top of every other problem that goes with being the poorest part of London.
> at the campaign meetings we had to try and stop that cut,m so many kids were in tears. It was heartbreaking.



Obviously I can't speak for London but similar applies in the North West. The biggest loss was budget cuts in Detached Workers or Outreach Workers who provided a much needed service for those who really were 'at risk'. In particular drug support services, advocacy and accommodation. There is a role for youth centres - the better ones being those in the voluntary sector but l.e.a. funding has also been cut from them.

My goodness! There was a time when the police worked in conjunction with the Greater Manchester Youth Service and organised regular outdoor pursuits in the Lake District.

Below rings a loud bell. About the same time as when Thatcher took the axe to community arts.



> The39thStep. Where i agree with you its about fifteen, twenty, thirty years of the same estates being the same shit holes and the emergence of a culture which in many cases itself is neo liberal and anti community.


 The Gamesley and Hattersley Estates are perfect examples


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## gentlegreen (Aug 10, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> \
> 
> I thought the riots were a response to the police shooting some guy dead?





DotCommunist said:


> and the LA riots were solely about rodney king





Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No, they were about the institutional racism that led to the beating of Rodney King, which appears to be similar to what is happening in the UK right now.



I seem to remember the looters targeted Korean stores.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Aug 10, 2011)

I think that the numerous rioters still in custody, alongside the increased police presence, will greatly reduce the problem without the need for bullets or water canon.

Rubber bullets are an extreme measure and will most likely bring about return fire with real rounds.


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## likesfish (Aug 10, 2011)

Appears to be over plus the locals appear to be getting orgainised anyone hoping for a free mobile tonight better hope they run into the cops because the locals won't show any mercy


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## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

Obnoxiousness said:


> I think that the numerous rioters still in custody, alongside the increased police presence, will greatly reduce the problem without the need for bullets or water canon.
> 
> Rubber bullets are an extreme measure and will most likely bring about return fire with real rounds.


out of curiosity how long do you think the increased police presence will last? if something goes off on the weekend there won't be bloody 16,000 cops on the streets of london. there'll be somewhat fewer. and there's a full list of premiership fixtures this weekend, which unless cancelled will take up a considerable number of cops. there may be numerous rioters in police custody but there are many more rioters - and potential rioters - yet at liberty.


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## dylans (Aug 10, 2011)

moved to another thread


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## silverfish (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm in favour of all the coppers getting pump action shotguns loaded with birdshot cartridges, doubt it'll fly though


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 10, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> I seem to remember the looters targeted Korean stores.



They did in black neighborhoods; in other neighborhoods, I think they were less...discriminating.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

A man who had his eyes ripped out in a protest in Stuttgart, by water cannon.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 10, 2011)

Obnoxiousness said:


> I think that the numerous rioters still in custody, alongside the increased police presence, will greatly reduce the problem without the need for bullets or water canon.
> 
> Rubber bullets are an extreme measure and will most likely bring about return fire with real rounds.



I thought private gun ownership was a rarity in UK.


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## no-no (Aug 10, 2011)

Rubber bullets would be a bad idea, I like the idea of using one of those low frequency sound cannons that make you shit yourself.


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## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I thought private gun ownership was a rarity in UK.


comparatively so, yes, but getting more frequent by the day.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> A man who had his eyes ripped out in a protest in Stuttgart, by water cannon.



Any chance of putting spoiler tags around that image ?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> comparatively so, yes, but getting more frequent by the day.



I'm just wondering how likely it would be for people to pull handguns out from their waistbands and start shooting, if the cops deployed Arwen guns.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> Any chance of putting spoiler tags around that image ?


It's not that gory, don't be a pussy...these are the times we live in.


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## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm just wondering how likely it would be for people to pull handguns out from their waistbands and start shooting, if the cops deployed Arwen guns.


what's an 'arwen gun'?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> I seem to remember the looters targeted Korean stores.



Because of the widely held (and not entirely baseless) opinion that Korean shop-owners (who owned the majority of "convenience stores" in poorer neighbourhoods with poor access to large supermarkets etc)  were exploiting their captive customer base, as I recall.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> what's an 'arwen gun'?



Have you seen "Terminator 2"? If you have you'll remember the bit where Arnie, Sarah Connor, John Connor and the scientist are in the Cyberdyne offices, and  because John Connor has told Arnie (back when they're rescuing Sarah from the nut-hatch) that he mustn't kill people, he uses a gun with a revolving drum to shoot bean-bag rounds at the coppers, as well as knee-capping some of them.

That gun with the revolving magazine drum is similar to an ARWEN. You can still kill someone with a round from one, but they're supposedly "non-lethal" (in reality though, "less lethal" is a better description).


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## likesfish (Aug 10, 2011)

Arwen gun is the latest version of the baton gun holds Six rounds in a revolving magazine that has a fancy redot sight on top that was amazingly even less accurate than the old shotgun sight although the police may have updated the sight.


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## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Obnoxiousness said:


> I think that the numerous rioters still in custody, alongside the increased police presence, will greatly reduce the problem without the need for bullets or water canon.


nope; it just postpones the problem, and it WILL return, again and again, in ever greater force, unless we do something about the causal factors.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you seen "Terminator 2"? If you have you'll remember the bit where Arnie, Sarah Connor, John Connor and the scientist are in the Cyberdyne offices, and because John Connor has told Arnie (back when they're rescuing Sarah from the nut-hatch) that he mustn't kill people, he uses a gun with a revolving drum to shoot bean-bag rounds at the coppers, as well as knee-capping some of them.
> 
> That gun with the revolving magazine drum is similar to an ARWEN. You can still kill someone with a round from one, but they're supposedly "non-lethal" (in reality though, "less lethal" is a better description).


ahh right...get yer now. Ta.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> what's an 'arwen gun'?



The gun that fires rubber bullets.



> The 1994 riot that followed the Canucks' Game 7 loss to the New York Rangers occurred in part because of a lack of "proactive" policing, said Ditchfield, whose decision during the riot to allow* use of an Arwen rubber-bullet gun -which caused a serious head injury to Stacy Ryan Berntt* -was vindicated in B.C. Supreme Court.



Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Lessons+learned+from+riot/4933463/story.html#ixzz1UdyOx4kI​


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## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

cheers johnny will read that later


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

likesfish said:


> Although you could go for the Israeli version literaly plastic m16 bullets they apprantly don't tumble so are classed as less lethal than conventional rounds don't think the idf actually grasped the concept but then again they think artillery counts as a precision weapon.
> Any sort of anti riot weapon that relies on kinetic energy is going to be dubiously.
> I quite like the taser claymore think 100 tasers that can be fired all at once



Over a 90-120 degree arc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

no-no said:


> Rubber bullets would be a bad idea, I like the idea of using one of those low frequency sound cannons that make you shit yourself.



Which they're unlikely ever to use, because as yet there's fuck-all protection to stop the old bill crapping their Calvins too.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 10, 2011)

yes front rank of riot stops looting starts dad dancing well 40000 volts will make the coolest steet thug start dancing like me 
  not sure which is worse the pain and humilation of 400000 volts or dancing like me


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Thing about all this stuff is that if it gets used on feral hoodies this week, it's going to be used on protesting students and eco-hippies next week.

Same way as all that draconian Blair-era anti-terror law has primarily been used to restrict peaceful political protests.


----------



## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Thing about all this stuff is that if it gets used on feral hoodies this week, it's going to be used on protesting students and eco-hippies next week.
> 
> Same way as all that draconian Blair-era anti-terror law has primarily been used to restrict peaceful political protests.



If they're stupid enough to loot high streets then good, blast away.
I think we both know that the situation right now needs containing by the use of force we have not seen on our streets, and that routine use of such weapons in non-looting situations would lead to an outcry.

As it stands - the vast majority want to see these little fuckers dealt with if they dare to riot again.

Take your pick - it's either the old bill firing plastic rounds, or it's vigilante mobs with bats.


----------



## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> and yet, the getting rough technique doesn't seem to have solved social problems. all that happens is people complain that they're not rough enough. so perhaps a new approach might be worth trying, perhaps we need to look at the reasons people don't riot and work out how we can spread that to those that do. it's, you know, _complicated_.



The "getting rough technique" hasn't been tried at all. When you've cops letting kids loot openly without even getting out of their vans, you know there's a problem.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 10, 2011)

They needed to get stuck in even if its just battering them a bit rather than arresting and charging them (which involves too much paperwork) If the looters saw people getting beaten they would quickly lose interest.

  And I don't mean a rodney king style beating just appropriate force to make people
run away.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 10, 2011)

Yep, when the riots die down, it's all going to go "back to normal", just like there aren't any anti-terror laws now because the terrorism threat has gone back to normal.


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## Deareg (Aug 10, 2011)

They have been using various type of rubber and plastic bullets in the 6 counties for 40 or so years, killing 16 people, plus leaving others blind or brain damaged along the way, as we all know they have been a fucking resounding success in stopping riots here.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> If they're stupid enough to loot high streets then good, blast away. <snip>



Yes, but my point here is that once given to the police, such tools are also likely to be used against people whose only crime is political dissent.


----------



## extra dry (Aug 10, 2011)

The police should just employ an old French foreign legion trick.....

During a tour of an western African country, a group of 15-20 legionaries where faced with a rioting crowd numbering in the low hundreds, seeing how out numbered, however not out gunned, they where the Sargent ordered that ten of the most rowdy rioters be shot on the spot.

His justification, later, at the court martial was that it was better to shot only ten and not fifty or a hundred which would have happened if the 50cals had been opened up.

 However over in Britain, who is to blame, the media feeding young minds images and goals that in real life take time and effort to gain.

Next time you travel to work or read a magazine count how many unatainable images peoples sub concusion(sp) is layered with. The next 'what not' 'be cool and trendy with this bit of plastic'.

Any way hope no urbanights got in any bother and/or smoke damage.


----------



## Deareg (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Yes, but my point here is that once given to the police, such tools are also likely to be used against people whose only crime is political dissent.


If they miss there target they also keep travelling until they hit something or someone who happens to be in the line of fire, I have seen children and even a middle aged woman hit in this way.


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## extra dry (Aug 10, 2011)

If any roiting breaks out around a royal residence then there will be a lot people hurt.


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## likesfish (Aug 10, 2011)

police have had them in the armoury since at least brixton not needed because mostly the level of violence hasn't been there.
  think political dissent is one thing
 petrol bombs and blast /acid bombs is not political descent
  it wasn't so much the violence but the widespread nature of the threat think its mostly over now.
 anyone after a free mobile tonight is going to be disappointed


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

extra dry said:


> The police should just employ an old French foreign legion trick.....
> 
> During a tour of an western African country, a group of 15-20 legionaries where faced with a rioting crowd numbering in the low hundreds, seeing how out numbered, however not out gunned, they where the Sargent ordered that ten of the most rowdy rioters be shot on the spot.
> 
> ...



Yes of course, getting soldiers to fire on crowds worked *so* well in Northern Ireland ...


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Yes, but my point here is that once given to the police, such tools are also likely to be used against people whose only crime is political dissent.



I think there is a vast difference between the sort of protest that hippy eco-warriors usually organise and notify cops about - and the sort of shit we're seeing here and now.

Also - I'm not adverse to the idea of a few batons being fired at the sort of cunt that swings off the cenotaph flag.

If that posh rich little cunt had been neckshot with a rubber bullet on live TV I'd have pissed myself laughing.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> If they miss there target they also keep travelling until they hit something or someone who happens to be in the line of fire, I have seen children and even a middle aged woman hit in this way.



Children and middle aged women should heed the coppers warning and stay away from JD Sports if the feral rats are looting it.

Otherwise they know what they can expect.


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## likesfish (Aug 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> They have been using various type of rubber and plastic bullets in the 6 counties for 40 or so years, killing 16 people, plus leaving others blind or brain damaged along the way, as we all know they have been a fucking resounding success in stopping riots here.



yes but that was a civil war with an unprecedented level of violence being used 3000 dead in the last 40 odd years not really comparable to shops being looted by the mob.
 the paras managed that in one afternoon with live rounds so its a better option


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

likesfish said:


> Arwen gun is the latest version of the baton gun holds Six rounds in a revolving magazine that has a fancy redot sight on top that was amazingly even less accurate than the old shotgun sight although the police may have updated the sight.





likesfish said:


> Arwen gun is the latest version of the baton gun holds Six rounds in a revolving magazine that has a fancy redot sight on top that was amazingly even less accurate than the old shotgun sight although the police may have updated the sight.


Fires the usual batons, gas and bean-bags.


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## extra dry (Aug 10, 2011)

I m not saying they should, just it could happen


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## Deareg (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> Children and middle aged women should heed the coppers warning and stay away from JD Sports if the feral rats are looting it.
> 
> Otherwise they know what they can expect.


Whether you like it or not people do stand about and watch riots so i hope whoever is in charge of giving the order to fire is not as big a cunt as you are.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Well yes, there is a vast difference between packs of feral hoodies and non-violent eco-hippies.

The cops seems much more comfortable beating the shit out of the latter and prefer to observe the former from a safe distance, at least on the evidence of the last few days.

I see no reason to suppose the cops wouldn't use watercannon or baton-rounds on non-violent hippies just as eagerly as they beat them with clubs at the G20 protests.


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## Deareg (Aug 10, 2011)

likesfish said:


> the paras managed that in one afternoon with live rounds so its a better option



managed what? they certainly did not stop the rioting.


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## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well yes, there is a vast difference between packs of feral hoodies and non-violent eco-hippies.
> 
> The cops seems much more comfortable beating the shit out of the latter and prefer to observe the former from a safe distance, at least on the evidence of the last few days.
> 
> I see no reason to suppose the cops wouldn't use watercannon or baton-rounds on non-violent hippies just as eagerly as they beat them with clubs at the G20 protests.


You may like to look at my pic of what a water cannon can do then?


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> You may like to look at my pic of what a water cannon can do then?



Saw it. I can hear them making 'soap dodger' jokes already ...


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Whether you like it or not people do stand about and watch riots so i hope whoever is in charge of giving the order to fire is not as big a cunt as you are.



At 1am - the only people around during a rioting/looting spree are fair game IMO.


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## Deareg (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> At 1am - the only people around during a rioting/looting spree are fair game IMO.


Like I said, I hope he is not as big a cunt as you.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Like I said, I hope he is not as big a cunt as you.



He'd be a bigger cunt for just letting the feral rats loot shops and burn people's homes and businesses.


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## Deareg (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> He'd be a bigger cunt for just letting the feral rats loot shops and burn people's homes and businesses.


If the only way to police these riots is by giving in to the blood lust of cunts like you then we really are fucked as a society.


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## bluestreak (Aug 20, 2011)

pk said:


> The "getting rough technique" hasn't been tried at all. When you've cops letting kids loot openly without even getting out of their vans, you know there's a problem.



maybe not in the UK this time round but all across the world for many years it has been tried.  why would it work here if it doesn't work anywhere else?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 20, 2011)




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