# WOT NO STUDENT DEMO THREAD? November 19th



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2014)

Anyone going to this?

http://freeeducationdemo.com/


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## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2014)

not i, i'll be at a training course


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not i, i'll be at a training course



You'll probably have more fun than me then... 

At least, you will if I can be arsed to rearrange my office hour in order to attend.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> You'll probably have more fun than me then...
> 
> At least, you will if I can be arsed to rearrange my office hour in order to attend.


course finishes half four so if anything's still going on i can catch the end


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> course finishes half four so if anything's still going on i can catch the end



There won't be.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> There won't be.


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2014)

What on earth?

http://anticuts.com/2014/10/30/the-...y-we-didnt-just-book-a-room-for-the-teach-in/


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## gamerunknown (Oct 30, 2014)

They've got a point in not booking rooms. Of course, universities are vast hubs of resources which should be open to anyone wishing to use them, not just staff and students. Not possible under capitalism.

I'd prefer to attend a teach in by Grothendieck though.


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 31, 2014)

gamerunknown said:


> They've got a point in not booking rooms. Of course, universities are vast hubs of resources which should be open to anyone wishing to use them, not just staff and students. Not possible under capitalism.
> 
> I'd prefer to attend a teach in by Grothendieck though.



Surely it's the fact these vast hubs of resources are shut off to so many, rather than booking rooms though, right? I mean, after the revolution, we'll all be able to use the resources. But if you want a room for a lecture or something, you'll probs have to devise some revolutionary method of sharing out lecture rooms fairly, like, er... a booking system.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 6, 2014)

Hey, I think this thread might actually be interesting now. Toni Pearce the NUS President has released a statement reversing the democratic decision of NUS NEC to support the demo, on the grounds of...er...safety. And...ummmm...er...insurance.

http://beta.nusconnect.org.uk/shape-our-work/articles/statement-from-the-national-president


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## comrade spurski (Nov 9, 2014)

That nus statement reads like aprivate eye piss take...no risk assessment,  no insurance...seriously, did they keep a striaght face when they put that out?


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## DrRingDing (Nov 9, 2014)

Why don't students form an alternative union? Is there one?


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 9, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Hey, I think this thread might actually be interesting now. Toni Pearce the NUS President has released a statement reversing the democratic decision of NUS NEC to support the demo, on the grounds of...er...safety. And...ummmm...er...insurance.
> 
> http://beta.nusconnect.org.uk/shape-our-work/articles/statement-from-the-national-president



I wonder if Toni Pearce is in socialist action like her comrade Aaron Kiely? NCAFC is being spearheaded by the AWL, after all.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 9, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Anyone going to this?
> 
> http://freeeducationdemo.com/



Will probably be at the Disabled Students March


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 9, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> Why don't students form an alternative union? Is there one?



I want to say because they're a bunch of bed wetting toss pots. But it's also because the student movement is by definition pretty transient and because it would take a fairly seismic level of student protest to generate a more radical alternative of any size. And because all students are members of NUS. Automatically. Regardless of whether you want to form a 'Red' union or not.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 9, 2014)

dialectician said:


> I wonder if Toni Pearce is in socialist action like her comrade Aaron Kiely? NCAFC is being spearheaded by the AWL, after all.



Right wing Labour member. So nominally friendly with Socialist Action/AWL depending on which suits.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 9, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Will probably be at the Disabled Students March



...that's a yes then?


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Right wing Labour member. So nominally friendly with Socialist Action/AWL depending on which suits.



Oh I see. You might be interested in this:
http://anticuts.com/2014/10/07/repo...onal-demonstration-disgrace-on-iraqkurdistan/


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> ...that's a yes then?



More like a hopefully...


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Oh I see. You might be interested in this:
> http://anticuts.com/2014/10/07/repo...onal-demonstration-disgrace-on-iraqkurdistan/



Read it ages ago. Are you trying to make a subtle point? Cos I'm not good at subtle...


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Yes.  I'm attempting to allude to the extremely low level of education in the student movement. Most of 'em couldn't even define uneven and combined development. really...


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Yes.  I'm attempting to allude to the extremely low level of education in the student movement. Most of 'em couldn't even define uneven and combined development. really...



Oh dearie me, we are in trouble then...

What's that got to do with that tit Lemberger Cooper? He can fuck off moaning about identity politics dominating the student movement, he and the AWL are happy enough to play that card when it suits. I'm well aware of what happened around all that ta very much, and the daft antics of Socialist Action members doesn't excuse the AWL trying to twist facts to suit themselves.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Everyone in the student movement has a half-conceptualised analysis of imperialism...


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Everyone in the student movement has a half-conceptualised analysis of imperialism...



Is the end of that sentence "...except the AWL" by any chance? If you've got something to say just say it, can't be arsed with all this veiled stuff.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh dearie me, we are in trouble then...
> 
> What's that got to do with that tit Lemberger Cooper? He can fuck off moaning about identity politics dominating the student movement, he and the AWL are happy enough to play that card when it suits. I'm well aware of what happened around all that ta very much, and the daft antics of Socialist Action members doesn't excuse the AWL trying to twist facts to suit themselves.




Oh well as a Turkish-Kurd I can't take most of these western middle-class socialists seriously. They're so highbrow and fancy themselves to be the next Trotsky or Mao or Lenin or whatever. 

I mean really the 20th century is actually... over.

Just curious, what facts did the AWL twist? I don't have as much for student politics as some others do...


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is the end of that sentence "...except the AWL" by any chance? If you've got something to say just say it, can't be arsed with all this veiled stuff.



No I'm not a member of the AWL or anything. I just find it ironic that people accuse them of islamophobia and what not when they have more links with comrades in Turkey, Iran, Iraqi Kurdistan and Tunisia than any other trot organisation in the UK, IIRC.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> No I'm not a member of the AWL or anything. I just find it ironic that people accuse them of islamophobia and what not when they have more links with comrades in Turkey, Iran, Iraqi Kurdistan and Tunisia than any other trot organisation in the UK, IIRC.



I'm highly skeptical of that - they are tiny.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Er... They have links with Marksist Tutum in Turkey, Worker-communist party of Iran (you know Namazie's organisation) worker-communist party of Iraq (who's secretary Muayyad Ahmed was at my university (RHUL) last week. Tiny yes but it's interesting that they've managed to form these links.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

They also have Dr. Camila Bassi (who is south asian IIRC) giving a talk on Marxist perspectives on Said's orientalism at Goldsmiths on Wednesday.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Oh well as a Turkish-Kurd I can't take most of these western middle-class socialists seriously. They're so highbrow and fancy themselves to be the next Trotsky or Mao or Lenin or whatever.
> 
> I mean really the 20th century is actually... over.
> 
> Just curious, what facts did the AWL twist? I don't have as much for student politics as some others do...



What I understand from mates on the NEC (not SA/AWL/Labour people to be clear) is that the motion was to be rewritten to explicitly oppose Western intervention and therefore avoid giving tacit support to intervention or tacit justification for the civilizing West/barbaric Islam narrative. I don't think it was done well and it would have been much better to simply amend it but unfortunately the process is pretty bureaucratic so motions can't be amended etc. Aaron Kiely said some stupid shit on twitter which the AWL have used to suggest people were refusing to condemn IS and inadvertently brought a shit storm of rape and death threats on the black students officer.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Er... They have links with Marksist Tutum in Turkey, Worker-communist party of Iran (you know Namazie's organisation) worker-communist party of Iraq (who's secretary Muayyad Ahmed was at my university (RHUL) last week. Tiny yes but it's interesting that they've managed to form these links.



That doesn't constitute more links with groups in the Middle East than any other trot group.


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## belboid (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> They also have Dr. Camila Bassi (who is south asian IIRC) giving a talk on Marxist perspectives on Said's orientalism at Goldsmiths on Wednesday.


yes, but she's a fuckwit


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> They also have Dr. Camila Bassi (who is south asian IIRC) giving a talk on Marxist perspectives on Said's orientalism at Goldsmiths on Wednesday.



Again, not really a strong indication of anything very much.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

belboid said:


> yes, but she's a fuckwit



I've gone for tact here but nicely put


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Well this was the original motion... Think of it what you will. Drafted by Roza Salih (a Kurd at Strathclyde IIRC.)



> NEC believes 1. That the people of Iraq have suffered for years under the sectarian and brutally repressive dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, the US/UK invasion and occupation, the current sectarian regime linked to both the US and Iran, and now the barbaric repression of the “Islamic State” organisation. 2. That rape and other forms of sexual violence are being used as weapons against women in IS-occupied areas, while minorities are being ethnically cleansed. NUS NEC resolves 1. To work with the International Students' Campaign to support Iraqi, Syrian and other international students in the UK affected by this situation. 2. To campaign in solidarity with the Iraqi people and in particular support the hard-pressed student, workers' and women's organisations against all the competing nationalist and religious-right forces. 3. To support Iraqis trying to bridge the Sunni-Shia divide to fight for equality and democracy, including defence of the rights of the Christian and Yazidi-Kurd minorities. 4. To condemn the IS and support the Kurdish forces fighting against it, while expressing no confidence or trust in the US military intervention. 5. Encourage students to boycott anyone found to be funding the IS or supplying them with goods, training, travel or soldiers. 6. To make contact with Iraqi and Kurdish organisations, in Iraq and in the UK, in order to build solidarity and to support refugees. 7. To issue a statement on the above basis.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Again, not really a strong indication of anything very much.



Well no, but it's not less than anyone else on the student left is it?


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I've gone for tact here but nicely put



Please explain.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> That doesn't constitute more links with groups in the Middle East than any other trot group.




Ok interesting, so who does?


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

belboid said:


> yes, but she's a fuckwit




How so?


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Well this was the original motion... Think of it what you will. Drafted by Roza Salih (a Kurd at Strathclyde IIRC.)



So you've mentioned a couple of times. As I've made clear it was rejected for what is not in it rather than what is.




dialectician said:


> Well no, but it's not less than anyone else on the student left is it?



It is actually. But like you say, you don't really follow student politics...


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Now it's you with the veiling. Put it on the line comrade and name organisations. I'm willing to concede that I am wrong.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> So you've mentioned a couple of times. As I've made clear it was rejected for what is not in it rather than what is.



What's not in it?


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## belboid (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> How so?


well, trotting along to a Free Palestine demo a couple of years back (at the time of the last Israeli assault on Gaza, iirr) with a Stop Hamas Bombing Israel placard springs to mind.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

OK that's twattish.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I want to say because they're a bunch of bed wetting toss pots. But it's also because the student movement is by definition pretty transient and because it would take a fairly seismic level of student protest to generate a more radical alternative of any size. And because all students are members of NUS. Automatically. Regardless of whether you want to form a 'Red' union or not.


Not all university unions are affiliated to the NUS - Edinburgh, where I went, isn't, for a start. There are definitely other groups, though if your university is affiliated you don't have much choice. (Apparently Glasgow is the only uni with two unions, and those are your only choices.)


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Now it's you with the veiling. Put it on the line comrade and name organisations. I'm willing to concede that I am wrong.



Socialist Students isn't technically the student wing of the SP (although in reality it is). The SP has small nascent sister orgs in Tunisia and Egypt as well as a more established section in Israel/Palestine. So a question of whether you choose to count it or not. The AWL has links but isn't able to demonstrate they are significant.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not all university unions are affiliated to the NUS - Edinburgh, where I went, isn't, for a start. There are definitely other groups, though if your university is affiliated you don't have much choice. (Apparently Glasgow is the only uni with two unions, and those are your only choices.)



Edinburgh didn't used to be but is now; B'ham disaffiliated a few years ago but re-affiliated IIRC. Because there isn't really a significant alternative to NUS, when SU's vote to disaffiliate they usually end up drifting back in, especially if no one can remember why the voted to leave.


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## gamerunknown (Nov 10, 2014)

Imperial has remained divested of affiliation - the only university to be prompted to do so from the right. They even have a page dedicated to their "brand".


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

gamerunknown said:


> Imperial has remained divested of affiliation - the only university to be prompted to do so from the right. They even have a page dedicated to their "brand".



Indeed. Again, not really a model likely to inspire those who want a more democratic left wing type student union.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Edinburgh didn't used to be but is now; B'ham disaffiliated a few years ago but re-affiliated IIRC. Because there isn't really a significant alternative to NUS, when SU's vote to disaffiliate they usually end up drifting back in, especially if no one can remember why the voted to leave.


Yes, I see Edinburgh reaffiliated in 2004 now. Still, they disaffiliated in 1976 so that's a fair length of time they managed to be independent.

I'd suspect that while there might not be a great advantage to the union members in affiliating, there clearly is for ambitious student politicians. Similarly for the NUS and not rocking the boat.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes, I see Edinburgh reaffiliated in 2004 now. Still, they disaffiliated in 1976 so that's a fair length of time they managed to be independent.
> 
> I'd suspect that while there might not be a great advantage to the union members in affiliating, there clearly is for ambitious student politicians. Similarly for the NUS and not rocking the boat.



I don't think there are many advantages to be had in anything to be honest. But I think the fact that there are left wingers elected to the NEC helps to demonstrate the inadequacy of NUS. If it weren't for left wingers on the NEC for example, it wouldn't have been possible to force the NUS to back this demo, and therefore Toni Pearce wouldn't have been forced to override a democratic decision together with a couple of full time NUS officers. Participating in NUS doesn't allow you to a great deal but at least shines a spotlight on how shit it is. Realistically while we do need a new national student union, it isn't gonna come without a massive upswing in the proportion of students involved in radical-ish politics.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Socialist Students isn't technically the student wing of the SP (although in reality it is). The SP has small nascent sister orgs in Tunisia and Egypt as well as a more established section in Israel/Palestine. So a question of whether you choose to count it or not. The AWL has links but isn't able to demonstrate they are significant.



Are the links of the SP significant? Or is this just mental trot masturbation on both fronts? Ta.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Are the links of the SP significant? Or is this just mental trot masturbation on both fronts? Ta.



In the Middle East as a whole I would say, no, not yet, not even close. Just about a hundred times more significant (relatively speaking) than the AWL.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Ah ok. I'm going back to university next year and was thinking of joining an org but not sure if I can be arsed with sectarian wars. I'd like to join student campaigns but don't want to be recruited.  would rather remain an independent (in terms of theory and doctrine) socialist all my life TBH.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Ah ok. I'm going back to university next year and was thinking of joining an org but not sure if I can be arsed with sectarian wars. I'd like to join student campaigns but don't want to be recruited.  would rather remain an independent (in terms of theory and doctrine) socialist all my life TBH.



Fair enough. If it makes any difference you're welcome to be as involved as you want in Socialist Students (including participating in national conferences/leadership should it interest you) without joining the SP. You can do the same in NCAFC as well but personally I couldn't hack it.

We will try to recruit you though, whether you like it or not.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

Why would I join an organisation that upholds the degenerated workers state thesis? 

Anyway this is not the place to debate marxist political economy.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Why would I join an organisation that upholds the degenerated workers state thesis?
> 
> Anyway this is not the place to debate marxist political economy.



Technically Socialist Students doesn't.

Possibly because virtually no student gives a shit anymore...


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

I do. 

I think it's very important. Then again I'm a history student...


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 10, 2014)

dialectician said:


> I do.
> 
> I think it's very important. Then again I'm a history student...



I'm certainly interested in the theoretical discussion and I sympathise but we're definitely in the minority. A few people are pushing the idea that SS into some kind of slightly broader student socialist org not officially affiliated to the SP with seperate democratic structures etc. Slightly sceptical about the likelihood of that happening but it basically means being an OrthoTrot is no longer a (theoretical) requirement of membership. And I guess the democratic centralist element is reduced somewhat now I think it through.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 10, 2014)

What will these separate democratic structures be?


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 15, 2014)

Ah, I'm glad that I define myself as being a nondoctrinaire communist...

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/ar...ked-in-attempt-to-undermine-student-fightback


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## shaman75 (Nov 17, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Anyone going to this?
> 
> http://freeeducationdemo.com/



I might pop down to see how that fence holds up around Parliament Square.


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## emanymton (Nov 17, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm certainly interested in the theoretical discussion and I sympathise but we're definitely in the minority. A few people are pushing the idea that SS into some kind of slightly broader student socialist org not officially affiliated to the SP with seperate democratic structures etc. Slightly sceptical about the likelihood of that happening but it basically means being an OrthoTrot is no longer a (theoretical) requirement of membership. And I guess the democratic centralist element is reduced somewhat now I think it through.


SS, SPEW you lot really need to give more thought to initials when setting up groups. ;-)


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

dialectician said:


> What will these separate democratic structures be?



Sorry, missed this. At the moment what's being put in place are regional and national elected committees which all Socialist Student members can be elected to, which have autonomy over what Socialist Students puts forward.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Ah, I'm glad that I define myself as being a nondoctrinaire communist...
> 
> http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/ar...ked-in-attempt-to-undermine-student-fightback



The crazy levels of sectarianism in the student movement are definitely a turn off.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

emanymton said:


> SS, SPEW you lot really need to give more thought to initials when setting up groups. ;-)



I like SPEW  In my mind, Socialist Students is abbreviated to Soc Studs.


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## Onket (Nov 17, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> The crazy levels of sectarianism in the student movement are definitely a turn off.


I was going to post something along these lines after reading (some of) that SP article (I gave up in the end as it was too depressing).

Can appear to be like it outside of the 'student movement' too, sadly.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 17, 2014)

Onket awesome username, BTW. student sectarians would do well to take heed. Maybe it'll make em a bit less sectarian.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2014)

emanymton said:


> SS, SPEW you lot really need to give more thought to initials when setting up groups. ;-)


i'm sure we all recall george galloway's ruc...

not to mention the sa of the mid-2000s.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

Onket said:


> I was going to post something along these lines after reading (some of) that SP article (I gave up in the end as it was too depressing).
> 
> Can appear to be like it outside of the 'student movement' too, sadly.



I think in the circumstances, with the NUS apparently threatening privately at one point to use the Hedley case to try to ban us from the march, we had to, but it is depressing. Personally I find in trade union/community type groups everything's a lot more straightforward cos you don't have quite the same level of FB based shenanigans.


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2014)

So is anyone going and will it be a hark back to other studes do's and smash shit up?


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

TopCat said:


> So is anyone going and will it be a hark back to other studes do's and smash shit up?



I'm going - I think it'll probably be shit though.


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## Onket (Nov 17, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Onket awesome username, BTW. student sectarians would do well to take heed. Maybe it'll make em a bit less sectarian.





SpackleFrog said:


> I think in the circumstances, with the NUS apparently threatening privately at one point to use the Hedley case to try to ban us from the march, we had to, but it is depressing. Personally I find in trade union/community type groups everything's a lot more straightforward cos you don't have quite the same level of FB based shenanigans.


It is and it isn't more straightforward. People are still members of various groups, slagging off the other groups and trying to recruit you or get you to some meeting or other.


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## JTG (Nov 17, 2014)

Well, I used to think student left politics was dull, navel gazing and ineffectual but after reading this thread...


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

Onket said:


> It is and it isn't more straightforward. People are still members of various groups, slagging off the other groups and trying to recruit you or get you to some meeting or other.



Yes but it takes place at a slower pace and people are a bit more direct about it.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 17, 2014)

TopCat said:


> So is anyone going and will it be a hark back to other studes do's and smash shit up?




Nah, NCAFC and NUS have negotiated a safe route with the cops don't you know.


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## JTG (Nov 17, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Nah, NCAFC and NUS have negotiated a safe route with the cops don't you know.


What have Newport County got to do with this?


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Nah, NCAFC and NUS have negotiated a safe route with the cops don't you know.



Technically NUS have condemned said organised route as unsafe. We are none of us safe, and NUS is very worried about it.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 17, 2014)

Yes, quite rich, indeed. Instead we should bow at the shrine of our great heroine Toni Pearce whilst she negotiates with VCs.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 17, 2014)

http://beta.nusconnect.org.uk/articles/making-the-case-for-free-education/


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 17, 2014)

I think I may worship her, I was profoundly moved by that article.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 17, 2014)

dialectician said:


> http://beta.nusconnect.org.uk/articles/making-the-case-for-free-education/



"sit down with your vice-chancellor or your principal, and make the case for free education. If they really care about higher education, they’ll absolutely be on our side."

She is indeed wise.


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## Onket (Nov 18, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yes but it takes place at a slower pace and people are a bit more direct about it.


I've got nothing to compare it with as I wasn't a student.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2014)

Onket said:


> I've got nothing to compare it with as I wasn't a student.



Well then, take my word for it, its fucking horrible.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well then, take my word for it, its fucking horrible.



Most student leftists hide behind an intellectual veneer assuming that they are achieving substantive results with these pointless and asinine sectarian invectives, when in reality all they are doing is perpetuating the highest stage of alienation.

Send these imbecilic narodniks into the anatolian countryside with AK47s pointed at their heads!


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

Anyway, this is worth a read.
Militancy: Highest Stage of Alienation


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## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Most student leftists hide behind an intellectual veneer assuming that they are achieving substantive results with these pointless and asinine sectarian invectives, when in reality all they are doing is perpetuating the highest stage of alienation.
> 
> Send these imbecilic narodniks into the anatolian countryside with AK47s pointed at their heads!


How old are you btw?


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Anyway, this is worth a read.
> Militancy: Highest Stage of Alienation



That's total drivel, in my humble opinion, but whatever turns you on.


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## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> That's total drivel, in my humble opinion, but whatever turns you on.


It's not drivel! It's excellent. But it's execllent in a context - and that context is the battle with PCF bureaucrats in the workplace and society that took place after 68. It's very specifically about a specialised role of a specific situation and organisation.  In those situations to call yourself  a PFC miliant was almost an official role. To mechanically apply the word militancy to today and argue that being militant means the same bureaucratic things is a) to fetishe texts b) to rob the original text of it's specfic value and c) to be undialectical.

Fucking hell, read texts, learn from then dialectictian, make  your own - don't just fucking parrot them or namedrop them 50 years later.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's not drivel! It's excellent. But it's execllent in a context - and that context is the battle with PCF bureaucrats in the workplace and society that took place after 68. It's very specifically about a specialised role of a specific situation and organisation.  In those situations to call yourself  a PFC miliant was almost an official role. To mechanically apply the word militancy to today and argue that being militant means the same bureaucratic things is a) to fetishe texts b) to rob the original text of it's specfic value and c) to be undialectical.
> 
> Fucking hell, read texts, learn from then dialectictian, make  your own - don't just fucking parrot them or namedrop them 50 years later.



Ahh, sorry - I didn't realize this was written in 1972, suddenly all the references to '68 make sense!

Was reading it thinking it had been produced by LibCom recently, which made sentences like "Discrediting and ridiculing militants, this is the task that falls to revolutionaries today" sound a bit daft. For some reason it only explains that the article is from 1972 underneath all the footnotes.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> How old are you btw?



Why should you care? It's hardly like people in this country act their age when they're over 25...


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## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> Ahh, sorry - I didn't realize this was written in 1972, suddenly all the references to '68 make sense!
> 
> Was reading it thinking it had been produced by LibCom recently, which made sentences like "Discrediting and ridiculing militants, this is the task that falls to revolutionaries today" sound a bit daft. For some reason it only explains that the article is from 1972 underneath all the footnotes.


Libcom don't write stuff. They archive others writing.


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Why should you care? It's hardly like people in this country act their age when they're over 25...



It's a reasonable question surely?


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## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Why should you care? It's hardly like people in this country act their age when they're over 25...


Because if you haven't felt the breath of a PCF militant on your back (or fit in local equivalent - and you'd need to be 40+ to have done so) it's just name-dropping - an ultra-left appeal to authority and tradition.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's not drivel! It's excellent. But it's execllent in a context - and that context is the battle with PCF bureaucrats in the workplace and society that took place after 68. It's very specifically about a specialised role of a specific situation and organisation.  In those situations to call yourself  a PFC miliant was almost an official role. To mechanically apply the word militancy to today and argue that being militant means the same bureaucratic things is a) to fetishe texts b) to rob the original text of it's specfic value and c) to be undialectical.
> 
> Fucking hell, read texts, learn from then dialectictian, make  your own - don't just fucking parrot them or namedrop them 50 years later.




I said it was worth a read, not that people should parrot it rote, cunt. And the point of militants being unable to interface with communicative capitalism still stands, in case it escaped you. They have no idea how to deal with information overload.

And nor do I, actually.


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## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

dialectician said:


> I said it was worth a read, not that people should parrot it rote, cunt. And the point of militants being unable to interface with communicative capitalism still stands, in case it escaped you. They have no idea how to deal with information overload.
> 
> And nor do I, actually.


Communicative capitalism - lol - drop some more terms/names. You star fucker.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's a reasonable question surely?




No.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Because if you haven't felt the breath of a PCF militant on your back (or fit in local equivalent - and you'd need to be 40+ to have done so) it's just name-dropping - an ultra-left appeal to authority and tradition.




No. But I've felt the breath of Turkish M-Ls on my back, thank you very much. I'm not comparing the two but I don't think I'm completely unaware...


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## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2014)

dialectician said:


> No. But I've felt the breath of Turkish M-Ls on my back, thank you very much. I'm not comparing the two but I don't think I'm completely unaware...


So make that comparison _live_ here in this instance rather than just saying_ read this you thickos...i've already sorted out where you're going wrong for you._


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## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm not sure if any of you lot will really care, but despite the fact that the AWL have used Steve Hedley as a reason to no-platform the SP, they have invited RMT activists to speak from the platform. Probably Janine Booth.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> So make that comparison _live_ here in this instance rather than just saying_ read this you thickos...i've already sorted out where you're going wrong for you._


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## treelover (Nov 18, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...xpected-to-march-in-london-for-free-education


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## Green&White Git (Nov 19, 2014)

I would go and show some support to the students but the Bristol Uni lot won't sell seats to non-students


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## shaman75 (Nov 19, 2014)

Fence came down then 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30113313


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## treelover (Nov 19, 2014)

Biggest since 2010 apparently.


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## treelover (Nov 19, 2014)

Not sure if it does anymore.


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## treelover (Nov 19, 2014)

Blimey!


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## ddraig (Nov 19, 2014)

shaman75 said:


> Fence came down then
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30113313


more videos on ruptly fb page
3rd one down for fence and square invasion
https://www.facebook.com/Ruptly


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2014)

I went along in my lunch break, though I couldn't stay very long, just until they got to the bottom of Kingsway. I have some pics which I'll put up when I get home.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 19, 2014)

dialectician said:


> And the point of militants being unable to interface with communicative capitalism still stands, in case it escaped you. They have no idea how to deal with information overload.


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## shaman75 (Nov 19, 2014)

ddraig said:


> more videos on ruptly fb page
> 3rd one down for fence and square invasion
> https://www.facebook.com/Ruptly



This one?


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## shaman75 (Nov 19, 2014)

Police look like they lost it today (18 sec)


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 19, 2014)

Nice one - getting into parliament square as well. 

Interesting that the cops didn't have the goon squad and horses though.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> Nice one - getting into parliament square as well.
> 
> Interesting that the cops didn't have the goon squad and horses though.


goon squad? d'you mean tsg, who are well represented in the video in #112?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2014)

dialectician said:


> Why should you care? It's hardly like people in this country act their age when they're over 25...


why should people act their age at all?


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> goon squad? d'you mean tsg, who are well represented in the video in #112?



They weren't in their riot gear though.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> They weren't in their riot gear though.


i think you mean they didn't have their helmets on or their shields out. they're clearly wearing their other protective equipment.


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you mean they didn't have their helmets on or their shields out. they're clearly wearing their other protective equipment.



helmets and shields = riot gear. I was wondering about the reasons for that - usually on demos like this its all robocop shit and kettling the fuck out of everyone + dogs and horses.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> helmets and shields = riot gear. I was wondering about the reasons for that - usually on demos like this its all robocop shit and kettling the fuck out of everyone + dogs and horses.


no, police riot equipment is mostly worn on the torso - around the legs, around the crotch and around the body. the helmet and shield are parts of, but not the whole of, the protective equipment. in his 1988 book, 'shooting in the dark: riot police in britain', gerry northam details 'overt protective equipment':

_Officers deployed in areas of serious public disorder wearing the following items of protective clothing: 

(i) pure wool barathea uniforms treated with Zirpro and Nuva-F 

(ii) protective gloves 

(iii) cricket box 

(iv) shin pads 

(v) protective boots 

(vi) clip-on tie 

(vii) riot helmet and visor 

(viii) fire resistant overalls 

(ix) any additional body protection that forces may consider necessary and have available. _

obviously there have subsequently been changes - no clip on tie anymore for example - but the police in the videos above have been wearing the majority of that. the baseball caps are part of the charm offensive to make it appear that they're not riot equipped. as northam reports chief inspector david blick saying:

_Blick: We start with the cricket box, which is the normal kind to protect the groin from kicks and missiles
and similar sorts of aggravation to a police officer’s body. Nothing sophisticated about that. Then we have
got two sorts of shin-pads. One here will provide full cover to the lower shin while still remaining away
from the public’s gaze. The problem has been trying to find something that is efficient without being too
visible – a hockey-pad would make the trousers bulge out and give an aggressive image, which is what we
are trying to avoid.
File On 4: You have also got a visor on the helmet.
Blick: As you see here, it clips on to the top of the helmet to stop smaller missiles such as staples, small
bricks, fluids of any description from affecting the officer’s eyes. The visor can be carried in the pocket out
of sight. The helmet has also been reinforced with a double layer of cork, and there is a mesh inside which
supports it on the head so that if a house brick comes down on top of it the force of the blow is spread
across the top of the head.
File On 4: The bobby who is geared up with all this may look like an ordinary British policeman, but he
isn’t really, is he?
Blick: No. That is something which the police force has tried to avoid, but it is a step we have had to take
to protect our own members.
_
for many years - since at least the welling riot in '93 - the police have deployed officers kitted up for disturbances but without helmets and shields to make it appear like they're normal bobbies to any casual observer.


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## ManchesterBeth (Nov 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> why should people act their age at all?




If everyone acted like a 20-year-old I wouldn't be a communist.

Not that I'd expect a western anarchist who isn't constantly tormented with the threat of being shunned and harmed by everyone to understand where I'm coming from...

Sorry. pissed off already and I just had to respond to this comment in most exacerbated fashion.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2014)

The cops were pretty hands-off in the first hour or so while I was there, just hanging around as people (harmlessly) draped flags over cars and so on. I wouldn't expect them to do anything that early on anyway - it would spoil the narrative, "well police were tolerant but in the end it was a few troublemakers who forced our hand". There also weren't very many of them at that point.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2014)

I noted sensible masking practice from the start btw.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2014)




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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2014)

Cats Not Cuts is a message I think we can all get behind.









Full set here, I won't post them all: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redspotted/sets/72157649363658831


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## brogdale (Nov 19, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I went along in my lunch break, though I couldn't stay very long, just until they got to the bottom of Kingsway. I have some pics which I'll put up when I get home.



Yeah, me & Mrs B went along to offer a bit of support and applause, and joined the march from the bottom of Kingsway round to Traf Sq....so didn't see the fun and games down at parliament. tbh the policing seemed deliberately low-key as far as Whitehall, obviously the goons were all lurking down nearer parliament.


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## shaman75 (Nov 20, 2014)

I decided all the juicy stuff would be happening at Parliament Square, if at all, and had some childcare duties to do (feed him lunch etc...) so decided to go down a bit later.  By which time they'd arrived at Parliament much earlier than timetabled, torn down the fences and fecked off round town, leaving about 150+ people listening to some barely audible speeches a bit further down by parliament.  Bollocks.  Got some nice pictures of a deserted square with some knocked over fences though.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 20, 2014)

Green & Black Cross is reporting all arrestees released without charge, bailed to return.


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## krink (Nov 20, 2014)

in one of the vids i'm sure i heard a cop say something like 'if you're going to punch, punch properly' like trying to goad someone. proper amateurish stuff.


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 20, 2014)

krink said:


> in one of the vids i'm sure i heard a cop say something like 'if you're going to punch, punch properly' like trying to goad someone. proper amateurish stuff.



And the Inspector stood by him has a cursory word like, "please don't"


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## ddraig (Nov 20, 2014)

that was well funny playground stuff


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## Jeff Robinson (Dec 3, 2014)

Police violence at peaceful student protest at Warwick:


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## ddraig (Dec 3, 2014)

private video


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## Jeff Robinson (Dec 3, 2014)

ddraig said:


> private video



Ah, it wasn't when I put it up. 

edit, basically it showed the cops getting a little trigger happy with their tazers and CS spray in response to a bunch of students sitting around in a circle.


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## Jeff Robinson (Dec 3, 2014)

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


that does seem a mite excessive


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Police violence at peaceful student protest at Warwick:



"this video is private"


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 3, 2014)

More footage of the same incident here:

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/shocking-video-police-cs-spray-8223393

Fucking wrong 'uns 

e2a: Just spotted a mate of mine in one of these videos, looks like he's got himself gassed. He posted a call out for support earlier today, fearing exactly this would happen


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## Jeff Robinson (Dec 3, 2014)

fucking goons.


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