# No Smoking in Wales



## Jim2k5 (Apr 2, 2007)

just been down the maccy pub in Cardiff, my first night of no smoking in cardiff, went to watch the football. was outside at half time and full time along with the rest of the pub. how is everyone else finding it?


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## Brockway (Apr 3, 2007)

The streets are going to get a lot noisier aren't they. Don't smoke myself but I've always enjoyed the ambience of a smoky pub - especially in winter. People were smoking in the Staff Club yesterday - maybe they are exempt.


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## lewislewis (Apr 3, 2007)

Been out to the pub today, noticeable difference. I think the ban is a good thing and very welcome.


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## ddraig (Apr 3, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> The streets are going to get a lot noisier aren't they. Don't smoke myself but I've always enjoyed the ambience of a smoky pub - especially in winter. *People were smoking in the Staff Club yesterday - maybe they are exempt*.



now that would take the right piss wouldn't it  
seein as it's the council who are enforcing it!

nearly popped in the vulcan or clifton to have a looksee yesterday, they've both got signs screwed to the wall outside and them fag bins.


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## editor (Apr 3, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> The streets are going to get a lot noisier aren't they. Don't smoke myself but I've always enjoyed the ambience of a smoky pub - especially in winter.


'Ambience' as in 'being forced to breath in other people's disgusting poisonous fumes,' yes?

The quicker this ban takes effect in London the better.


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## fatnek (Apr 3, 2007)

moooooooo.  fucking stripping us of our liberties, no photos next, then no fucking live music,  what the fuck?  they'll be telling us how to dress next.


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## editor (Apr 3, 2007)

fatnek said:
			
		

> moooooooo.  fucking stripping us of our liberties, no photos next, then no fucking live music,  what the fuck?  they'll be telling us how to dress next.


I've just _gained_ the liberty not to have to inhale some cunt's poisonous and stinky fumes when I'm in Wales.


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## la ressistance (Apr 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I've just _gained_ the liberty not to have to inhale some cunt's poisonous and stinky fumes when I'm in Wales.




you always had that liberty anyway.no smoking areas have been in pubs for quite a while now.
pity some fuckers prefer a blanket ban.


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## Brockway (Apr 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> 'Ambience' as in 'being forced to breath in other people's disgusting poisonous fumes,' yes?



Yes. 

Personally I think there should be smoking pubs and non-smoking pubs with a sign outside to denote which is which - that way people could have the choice. All the squeaky clean, health-conscious types could go to one; and all the cool people could go to the other.


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## Brockway (Apr 3, 2007)

ddraig said:
			
		

> now that would take the right piss wouldn't it
> seein as it's the council who are enforcing it!
> 
> nearly popped in the vulcan or clifton to have a looksee yesterday, they've both got signs screwed to the wall outside and them fag bins.



The Staff Club smokers were on the steps today... breathing over innocent members of the public and frightening small children.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> Personally I think there should be smoking pubs and non-smoking pubs with a sign outside to denote which is which - that way people could have the choice.



They tried that near me - it closed down.

I have a bit of a theory as to how this will pan out over the next couple of years - will be interesting to find out . . .


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## Brockway (Apr 3, 2007)

8ball said:
			
		

> They tried that near me - it closed down.
> 
> I have a bit of a theory as to how this will pan out over the next couple of years - will be interesting to find out . . .



Which closed down - the smoking pub or the non-smoking pub?

And what's your theory 8ball?


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Which closed down - the smoking pub or the non-smoking pub?



I live in Nottingham.  There was just one non-smoking place and shitloads of smoking places.  Go figure.




			
				Brockway said:
			
		

> And what's your theory 8ball?



It has to do with planning regulations - I'm not being coy out of some delusion that what I say will infuence what happens - I'm just hinting in case anyone else here has had the same thought.


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## Brockway (Apr 3, 2007)

8ball said:
			
		

> It has to do with planning regulations - I'm not being coy out of some delusion that what I say will infuence what happens - I'm just hinting in case anyone else here has had the same thought.



Stop being so mysterious mun and spit it out. I'm intrigued.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Stop being so mysterious mun and spit it out. I'm intrigued.



Well basically, if you drop all the Govt. propaganda and bullshit, what's happening in Ireland, and what will happen in Wales, is that you'll get a lot of pubs closing down, sadly the ones in poorer areas will go first etc etc . . point been made before . . .

but then some of the pubs that hang on in there are the ones that started with a lean-to shed, and some have space heaters outside (and this was in the middle of fucking winter so you can imagine what that costs - must be REALLY worth hanging onto the smoking trade if you're prepared to do that - and I'm not even thinking about the carbon emissions...).

The basic reason for this being that the people who go to pubs and make feeble choking noises when someone lights up are the types that will go along for a pint of lager or glass of wine after work, or on the way to a restaurant, and then be on their way.  The 'session drinkers', that keep the pubs going, have mates that smoke and a more live-and-let-the-DNA-repair-systems-do-their-thang attitude.  Not that you'll lose all of these by banning smoking, but these guys will go wherever the facilities are least uncomfortable for their smoking buds - you know how the 'where shall we go next' collective decisions get made.

So in Ireland, etc you have 'outside smoking areas' that in some places are more plush than the average pub interior would have been a few generations ago, and you have temporary structures that are slowly taking on an air of more permanence.  The Urban Beestonites who've been to the Vic will know exactly what I'm talking about (though that is a blatant expansion attempt and has been going on since before the smoking ban was on the table - I do ramble . . .).

So at some point the following exchange will happen in quite a few places in parallel:

Government(G):You have people smoking here!!
Publican(P):No, I have people smoking under an outside shelter.
G: But it's made of bricks and has Sky Sports and dancing girls!
P:  My lawyer informs me it is an outside free-standing structure due to the space heaters, lack of windows, gimballs it is resting on which means it could be packed away in less than . . . ooh . . a month or so . . .


And on it goes.  It could turn out to open a right can of worms if the line between temporary and permanent structures becomes deliberately blurred (and there are building companies who will cash in on this market as it emerges) - especially since a there are a lot of people who would love to find an easy loophole in planning regs.

Just wondered if anyone else had had the same thought, that's all


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2007)

Let this be a lesson to me about doing long and ponderous posts


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## Gromit (Apr 3, 2007)

Jim2k5 said:
			
		

> just been down the maccy pub in Cardiff, my first night of no smoking in cardiff, went to watch the football. was outside at half time and full time along with the rest of the pub. how is everyone else finding it?



You don't exactly have to walk far from the big screen in the Maccy to outside now do you?

Making it sound like a massive chore.  

I don't care whether punters care about breathing passive smoke (they can make a choice to leave) but i do think its unfair on bar staff so i support the ban. Even though i like a crafty fag now and then.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 3, 2007)

Well our local seems fine, its just installed a rather fetching picnic table on the pavement outside and there are groups of people puffing away


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## Jonny Elvis III (Apr 3, 2007)

Went out tonight for the first time since the ban has come in. It was ok, trouble is I had terrible wind, and usually the fag smoke detracts from my oudours. I do appologise


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

Fucks sake you only have to go outside to smoke guys, it really isn't the end of the world or the end of the pub industry...


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Fucks sake you only have to go outside to smoke guys, it really isn't the end of the world or the end of the pub industry...


Some people get so melodramatic about it don't they? It's just a manky highly addictive and fairly stinky habit. They'll all come round soon enough.

I think after pubs are smoke free for two years then pubs should be allowed to declare themselves smoking or non-smoking. People are innately conservative and will just stick with the status quo. Once they have been set as smoke free for a while, barely a few will switch back to being smoking.


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## Badgers (Apr 4, 2007)

I was in Ireland the first day of the ban there and recall almost everyone saying 'it will never last' but it has... 

I found it a bit annoying to keep going outside but got used to it very quickly. I am not that bothered about the ban in England and it will mean me cutting down for sure or possibly giving up.


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## pogofish (Apr 4, 2007)

8ball said:
			
		

> Just wondered if anyone else had had the same thought, that's all



Not really.  Unlike Ireland, the nature of a smoking shelter has been quite clearly defined in the UK.  Outside shelters have to be a maximum 50% enclosed or the ban still applies whatever the method of construction/temporary or not.  Also, in Scotland, if the shelter gets too plush, the authority will possibly fall-foul of some directive or other on "encouraging smoking" & still pull the planning permission, & force the pub to tear it down before they re-apply.  Which may take months as the day the ban came-in, most authorities put a temporary block on outdoor shelter applications, which in my area lasted a full 6 months & still gets the lowest priority in the planning process.

So there are still very few of the sort of "comfortable" shelters that we were promised before the ban.  

As for the rest of your post, yup, more or less the same here - pubs with significant night-out trade, outdoor space for facillities, good lawyers & in the busiest areas do fine.  Ordinary pubs, without the space to put-in facillities & who depended on regular trade in the less busy places have suffered badly.

In the meantime, fag sales have still gone up & they ain't singing much about that one.  

Mind you, lock-ins are right back in vogue & I've never had so many to choose from.


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## pogofish (Apr 4, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Fucks sake you only have to go outside to smoke guys,



In a word - Shite!

So the ASH-backed attempts that include - trying to redefine the meaning of encosed to include "enclosed" by a line on a map (Cairngorm NP, Tayside), local outdoor smoking bans (Tayside, Dumbartonshire) & a host of attempts to get a legal judgement that would allow them to carry any part of the legislation outdoors are not a sign of them keeping-up the momentum for a total ban?  

Do you really think they are going to sit back & be happy with this victory?


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## Jim2k5 (Apr 4, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> You don't exactly have to walk far from the big screen in the Maccy to outside now do you?
> 
> Making it sound like a massive chore.




its miles, i nearly died,  

was just saying about my experiences though and wondering what other people thought about it, personally going outside to smoke doesnt bother me all that much as i know it will help me cut down.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

fatnek said:
			
		

> moooooooo.  fucking stripping us of our liberties, .



Beat bleat bleat...nobody is stripping your liberties. They are just taking away the right for to smoke in public spaces where non smokers and non smoking staff are at risk from second hand smoke. Its not too much to ask is it? Feel free to endanger your health-but please dont bleat on about 'liberties' when your freedom to smoke means my ability to live a healthy life is at risk from your habit.


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## waterloowelshy (Apr 4, 2007)

in other planning terms that 8 ball touched on - its long been established that the govn werent exactly thrilled with how many city centres had turned into no go zones due to binge culture drinking etc.  well maybe now this new law will push a few of these places into financial difficulties as smokers may stay at home - and hey presto you will have less of a concentration of pubs in certain areas - quite cunning really - if only they had planned it.  now all that they have to come up with is a good idea to replace the pubs that will close down.

i personally would think the above would be a good thing to happen - esp in cardiff city centre which, lets be honest, is pretty horrible on a sturday night.  but, i guess the shame would be if the smoking ban puts local village type pubs out of business. 

discuss!


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## Spandex (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> They are just taking away the right for to smoke in public spaces where non smokers and non smoking staff are at risk from second hand smoke.


That's not quite true, is it?

What's been taken away is the right to smoke in enclosed public spaces regardless of whether there is a risk to non-smokers/staff (like in a small, poorly ventilated pub) or not (like a station concourse, where any risks from passive smoking are so minimal it's questionable whether they even exist).


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## spacemonkey (Apr 4, 2007)

I work full-time in a pub and absolutely love the smoking ban. I've finally got rid of my permanent cough!   No more cleaning stinking ashtrays all night as well. 

I used to smoke, but working on a busy shift was unbearable sometimes, the ventilation was crap and it would make you wheeze and your eyes would sting...

The downside is now the pub smells of BO and Farts. Really badly when it's busy!


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

Spandex said:
			
		

> That's not quite true, is it?
> 
> What's been taken away is the right to smoke in enclosed public spaces regardless of whether there is a risk to non-smokers/staff (like in a small, poorly ventilated pub) or not (like a station concourse, where any risks from passive smoking are so minimal it's questionable whether they even exist).



Passive smoking risks are well documented and the risk is there however small regardless of ventilation. If for example you used that station concourse twice a day for all of your working life then the risks exist-and what about the people that work on a station concourse-their exposure is even greater. No matter how you look at it-smoking in public is a health risk. We could spend all day churning out risk factors/probablities-but one thing you cant eliminate is the actual risk.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Passive smoking risks are well documented and the risk is there however small regardless of ventilation. If for example you used that station concourse twice a day for all of your working life then the risks exist-and what about the people that work on a station concourse-their exposure is even greater. No matter how you look at it-smoking in public is a health risk. We could spend all day churning out risk factors/probablities-but one thing you cant eliminate is the actual risk.


It is possible for a risk to be so small that it is not worth considering. It is possible to be hit by a bolt of lightning from a far-off cloud on a sunny day - a 'bolt from the blue'. This risk is not worth considering when you are deciding whether or not to go to the shops.

And passive smoking risks are, in fact, surprisingly badly documented. The evidence is far from clear-cut and Richard Doll, no less, the scientist who first documented the link between smoking and lung cancer, was far from convinced. It is very difficult to separate out lifestyle from passive smoking - essentially, if you spend a lot of time around smokers, you're more likely to have a bad diet and not exercise too much than those who avoid smoky atmospheres, which makes definitive studies very difficult.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> The evidence is far from clear-cut and Richard Doll, no less, the scientist who first documented the link between smoking and lung cancer, was far from convinced.



He sounds pretty convinced here:

*Sir Richard also spoke out on the health risks of passive smoking, criticising the tobacco companies attempts to undermine the evidence that passive smoking causes fatal disease. "The evidence that it does it is clear", he said, "I believe that nobody should have to work in an atmosphere polluted by other people?s smoke". 
*

http://www.doctorsandtobacco.org/news.php?id=133


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

hmm see here's the thing this is going to lead to an increase i violence in pubs and clubs at the weekend and here's why...

large establishments have a policy of no readmittance in the west end and the like you go out you stay out... or pay up to come back in... so how's this going to work then when people can't smoke inside and there's not exteror to smoke at which is still on premises?  they'll have to allow readmittence or lose the trade... look at how many people smoke in anygiven club, it's over 50% indeed it's usually more like 70% so this will mean more people will sneak in via the readmittence polices getting more things into clubs drugs kinves guns etc as the security isn't goign to be caught up constantly having to search smokers goign in an out for a puff... 

euqlly most clubs have single entrance/exit points (other than fire escapes) so there will be even more problems in controlling flow of patrons...  it' has yet to be thought how this will affect fire regs etc (1 in 1 out polices) or the levels of aggro noise public distrubance which will occure as a result of this...


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> hmm see here's the thing this is going to lead to an increase i violence in pubs and clubs at the weekend and here's why...



Thats entirely speculative garf-are you able to provide evidence of this in places like New York or Ireland where the ban has been in force for sometime?


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Richard Doll also said: 'The effects of other people smoking in my presence are so small it doesn't worry me.' Said on Desert Island Discs


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## Badgers (Apr 4, 2007)

I was thinking about this in a (London Pub) the other day and I looked around to gage the numbers. I reckon about 75% of people in there were smoking and it was a medium sized pub serving food. 

Was reading the other day that in Scotland a lot of pubs have laid off staff following the expense of adding outside space for smoking and a downturn in trade.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

In Ireland around 10% of pubs have closed, so I would expect at least that to happen here. You can bet it won't be the horrible Wetherspoon-types that will go under.

In Ireland, also, sales in offies have gone up, so more people are staying at home and smoking in front of their families. If you're thinking about improving public health, then you can make a strong case for providing a comfortable place away from the home for people to smoke in.

And FFS, pubs are places people go to be a bit naughty. That's their job.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Thats entirely speculative garf-are you able to provide evidence of this in places like New York or Ireland where the ban has been in force for sometime?


are you saying that they are in anyway comparitive to the active and utterly overcrowded west end/soho club scene... i mean really name me one area in ireland like it comparitively...

and of coruse it's fucking speculitive you dishonest twat it's my opinion of what will happen after the fact when this is brought in as there is no comparitive of a future event possible it has to be....

you are gettign thicker by the post....


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> . If you're thinking about improving public health, then you can make a strong case for providing a comfortable place away from the home for people to smoke in.
> 
> .



As long as that comfortable space is away from other non smokers.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> are you saying that they are in anyway comparitive to the active and utterly overcrowded west end/soho club scene... i mean really name me one area in ireland like it comparitively...



And how about New York?



> and of coruse it's fucking speculitive you dishonest twat it's my opinion of what will happen after the fact when this is brought in as there is no comparitive of a future event possible it has to be....
> 
> you are gettign thicker by the post....



E2A Dont want to get into a slanging match with you garf.

Either engage properly or dont engage at all please you nasty man.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> As long as that comfortable space is away from other non smokers.


Or non-smokers (like me) who, like Richard Doll, have no problem with people smoking around them - for instance in pubs, say, that allow smoking.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Or non-smokers (like me) who, like Richard Doll, have no problem with people smoking around them - for instance in pubs, say, that allow smoking.



No doll said:

"I believe that nobody should have to work in an atmosphere polluted by other peoples smoke". 

He had no problem with peopole smoking around him-but didnt feel the same about other people having to put up with passive smoking.


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## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

I was in New York before and after the smoking ban and the only difference I noticed was that I didn't come home stinking of other people's cancerous smoke at the end of the night.

The pubs, dive bars and clubs were just as exciting and as much fun as when people were choking on their fags and filling the place with noxious fumes.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> No doll said:
> 
> "I believe that nobody should have to work in an atmosphere polluted by other peoples smoke".
> 
> He had no problem with peopole smoking around him-but didnt feel the same about other people having to put up with passive smoking.


What about people choosing to work in a smoky atmos - for instance if a certain proportion of pubs allowed smoking. Better than no job at all, no? What annoys me is the unwillingness to compromise.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> What about people choosing to work in a smoky atmos - for instance if a certain proportion of pubs allowed smoking. Better than no job at all, no? What annoys me is the unwillingness to compromise.



If someone can staff a whole establishement with people willing to work in a smoky environment and those staff and patrons sign disclaimers say they are willing to accept the risk then I dont see why not. Highly improbable but I dont see why not.


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## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> What about people choosing to work in a smoky atmos - for instance if a certain proportion of pubs allowed smoking. Better than no job at all, no?


Most people working in bar jobs don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose. 

But please explain why anyone should have to work in a atmosphere that it hazardous to their health?

Why should the smoker's "right" to exhale noxious and poisonous fumes be placed ahead of a worker's right to a safe work environment?

No one's trying to ban smoking outright.


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## lunatrick (Apr 4, 2007)

I say good - for once wales is leading the way in the uk..(ok mainland uk)


does anybody remember the four bars 10 or 15 years ago when it was so smoky it hurt your eyes? I used to smoke then as well....these days nearly a year into giving up I'm obviously a nicotine fascist....this argument about falling sales, delelict pubs etc...what about all the people who don't go now because of the smoke? perhaps pubs like any other business need to keep up to compete? as much as I love the local boozer that stinks of the 'fug' - the albany or the claude being mine from birth, I think society generally is shifting......


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## ICB (Apr 4, 2007)

Went for a pint after work last Friday and came home stinking of smoke.

Looking forward to the next one much more.

Generally uppity smokers at work as they're no longer allowed to smoke outside the building, they have to move onto the pavement or smoke in their cars (the land is owned by Dyfed-Powys Police and they've instigated a blanket ban).  Even the most die-hard smokers admit it's probably good for them in the long run as they're bound to cut down.  Most likely get some more work done as well.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

lunatrick said:
			
		

> I say good - for once wales is leading the way in the uk..(ok mainland uk)
> 
> 
> .....



As well as on NHS prescriptions


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Most people working in bar jobs don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose.
> 
> But please explain why anyone should have to work in a atmosphere that it hazardous to their health?
> 
> ...


erm because at it's most basic here... with out the customers there'd be no work... the old adage of the customer is always right, and it being a Service industry would usually be the give away points... so it's not a demand for ANYONE have to work in an atmosphere that is hazardous to their health is it?

stop sticking up straw men


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## lunatrick (Apr 4, 2007)

well a little bit is better than none...............on the subject of workers rights re bar work.......for me to work 40 hours a week in a smoky atmosphere - unthinkable - so why should bar staff?


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Most people working in bar jobs don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose.
> 
> But please explain why anyone should have to work in a atmosphere that it hazardous to their health?
> 
> ...


Problem is, as Ireland and Scotland are showing, the choice often isn't 'work in no-smoking pub' or 'work in smoking pub'. It's 'work in smoking pub' or 'don't work in a pub at all, cos it will have closed'. I'm all for a partial ban. The total ban, I fear, will see many of the more interesting pubs closing. That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.


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## lunatrick (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Problem is, as Ireland and Scotland are showing, the choice often isn't 'work in no-smoking pub' or 'work in smoking pub'. It's 'work in smoking pub' or 'don't work in a pub at all, cos it will have closed'. I'm all for a partial ban. The total ban, I fear, will see many of the more interesting pubs closing. That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.




I'm not convinced that this is true......anecdotal evidence suggets that overall people in pubs etc has increased.......due to a smoke free environment...only anecdotal mind,,


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

lunatrick said:
			
		

> I'm not convinced that this is true......anecdotal evidence suggets that overall people in pubs etc has increased.......due to a smoke free environment...only anecdotal mind,,


Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban. Sales in offies have gone up - smokers are staying at home and drinking and smoking in front of the telly.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban.



Just out of interest why do you think thats happened in ireland and not NY as your earlier post suggested?


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## lunatrick (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban.




is that a direct consequence of smoking though? isn't there lots of pubs shutting anyway for other reasons?


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## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Problem is, as Ireland and Scotland are showing, the choice often isn't 'work in no-smoking pub' or 'work in smoking pub'. It's 'work in smoking pub' or 'don't work in a pub at all, cos it will have closed'. I'm all for a partial ban. The total ban, I fear, will see many of the more interesting pubs closing. That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.


If a village only has one pub and it's a smoking one, where's the choice for workers?

Or if I'm going out to meet friends who smoke, their addiction to nicotine is likely to be so great I'd be forced to keep on inhaling their poisonous fumes in the nearest 'smoking' pub.

Oh, and please explain what makes a pub more inherently "interesting" just because people smoke there?


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

lunatrick said:
			
		

> is that a direct consequence of smoking though? isn't there lots of pubs shutting anyway for other reasons?


This is true. But the ban has accelerated the trend.


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## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> This is true. But the ban has accelerated the trend.



So you say...but not in New York? Why is that?


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh, and please explain what makes a pub more inherently "interesting" just because people smoke there?


You misunderstand me. It will be small, interesting pubs that will cope least well with the ban is what I meant. Wetherspoons will no doubt continue to prosper. 

If the pub is the only one in a village, and only has one room, you have a strong case for a ban. If you are in a town with many pubs, you have a strong case, I think, for, say, half or a third allowing smoking, or all of them having rooms where you can smoke. Workers are not likely to die as a result of passing through smoking rooms occasionally. 

Regarding your friends, do you really need the law to help you out in your dealings with them? That's a sorry state of affairs, I think - not the law's place at all.


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## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> This is true. But the ban has accelerated the trend.


Not in New York:


> The city's restaurants and bars have prospered despite the smoking ban, with increases in jobs, liquor licenses and business tax payments since the law took effect a year ago, according to a study to be released by the city today.
> 
> The study also found that air pollution levels had decreased sixfold in bars and restaurants after the ban went into effect, and that New Yorkers had reported less secondhand smoke in the workplace.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/29/n...&en=3d3eb86087d9d6a6&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> If a village only has one pub and it's a smoking one, where's the choice for workers?
> 
> Or if I'm going out to meet friends who smoke, their addiction to nicotine is likely to be so great I'd be forced to keep on inhaling their poisonous fumes.
> 
> Oh, and please explain what makes a pub more inherently "interesting" just because people smoke there?


name the village name the workers ... other wise this fictious pub and it's fantasy staff you have supposedly quizzed to assertain their prefferences as to their working conditions is entirely at your whimsy... 

have you ever asked your friends not to smoke around you because you find it so objectionable?  what was their reaction to your request? 

non smokers are whinny twats with little petty minds and unintresting lives FACT!!!  that's what i'd imagine they ment by intresting...


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Regarding your friends, do you really need the law to help you out in your dealings with them? That's a sorry state of affairs, I think - not the law's place at all.


1. Don't patronise me. If you're a smoker, you'll want to go to a smoking pub because you're addicted to nicotine.

2. Sadly, pubs in the UK have been in a huge decline for years and unless they can afford to adapt and refit, they'll continue to close while the big chains prosper.

3. You still haven't answered me why you think workers should be forced to inhale poisonous chemicals at work either.


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> non smokers are whinny twats with little petty minds and unintresting lives FACT!!!  that's what i'd imagine they ment by intresting...


Give it up Garf. Your weird aggressive outbursts aren't helping the debate.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> So you say...but not in New York? Why is that?


and can you point out the actual comparitives between the two socailly economically etc and also those with london ... second time of asking...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> So you say...but not in New York? Why is that?


I don't know about NY. Nowhere have I commented on NY. Culturally, we're much more like the Irish, so I'd say their experience is likely to be more revealing.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> non smokers are whinny twats with little petty minds and unintresting lives FACT!!!  that's what i'd imagine they ment by intresting...




Erm...right o garf...thats opinion not a fact  



*see your post in Father4 Justice*


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Give it up Garf. Your weird aggressive outbursts aren't helping the debate.


SOH failure alert couplled with use of firkyism ... it's very sad to see his words coming out of your mouth tbf... i'd have thought you more original than that... sadly not...


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> . Your weird aggressive outbursts aren't helping the debate.



Indeed-I find it difficult to engage with a poster who displays all the symptons of tourettes.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Erm...right o garf...thats opinion not a fact
> 
> 
> 
> *see your post in Father4 Justice*


that was the refference and the humourious comment hence the smilie jesus there are some po faced people about...


----------



## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban. Sales in offies have gone up - smokers are staying at home and drinking and smoking in front of the telly.



If we want a healthier or safer society though, surely it's better if people are drinking (and smoking) at home? Less drink driving then, which is a massive taker of human life. 

There will always be a demand for pubs, some will close but all businesses have to change to adapt to society. An 'interesting pub' or 'cosy, smokey pub' is worth alot less to me than a single human life, and let's be honest with ourselves it is scientifically proven that people die because of inhaling smoke.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Indeed-I find it difficult to engage with a poster who displays all the symptons of tourettes.


yeah them retards should of course not be allowed a voice... lock em up eh grandma  should we beat them with sticks too....???


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> I don't know about NY. Nowhere have I commented on NY.






			
				littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> yeah them retards should of course not be allowed a voice... lock em up eh grandma  should we beat them with sticks too....???



What on earth are you babbling on about


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> 1. Don't patronise me. If you're a smoker, you'll want to go to a smoking pub because you're addicted to nicotine.
> 
> 2. Sadly, pubs in the UK have been in a huge decline for years and unless they can afford to adapt and refit, they'll continue to close while the big chains prosper.
> 
> 3. You still haven't answered me why you think workers should be forced to inhale poisonous chemicals at work either.


1. You do appear to object to any smoking pubs at all because your friends will drag you there. Forgive me if that is not what you meant.

2. True, and the smoking ban is likely to accelerate the decline.

3. By this rationale, all chip shops should be closed as the fumes from the fat are carcinogenic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

>


Don't be disingenuous - notice the word 'may' and the context of the reply - I was claiming no knowledge of NY.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> 1. Don't patronise me. If you're a smoker, you'll want to go to a smoking pub because you're addicted to nicotine.
> 
> 2. Sadly, pubs in the UK have been in a huge decline for years and unless they can afford to adapt and refit, they'll continue to close while the big chains prosper.
> 
> 3. You still haven't answered me why you think workers should be forced to inhale poisonous chemicals at work either.


1. erm surely cos it's the freedom to choose and not be regulated by some non entiy or minorty group about the morals of ones actions, regardless of ones personal qualifications on such matters such as physical addiction....
2. true enough largerly this is however due to increased taxation meaning that people have less dispossable income couplled with higher working hours creating a situation where work time balance is distorted, the last thing you want to do after a long workign day is get hamer to fuckry when you have to get up and do it all again the next day...
3.  no on ehas made that assertation and you seem to ignore the vaild poitns i have made about this...


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> 2. True, and the smoking ban is likely to accelerate the decline.



But it didnt in NY why are you ignoring this fact?


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Don't be disingenuous - notice the word 'may' and the context of the reply - I was claiming no knowledge of NY.



Fair point. But you are acknowledging the possibility of this 'fact' and the editor has provided you with evidence-so given that it hasnt happened in NY how can we say that the closure of 10% of pubs in ireland is down to the smoking ban?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> But it didnt in NY why are you ignoring this fact?


FFS read my posts. Which country does UK most resemble culturally, Ireland or US?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> What on earth are you babbling on about


your words...



			
				Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Indeed-I find it difficult to engage with a poster who displays all the symptons of tourettes.




why should someones potential or actually disabilty prevent you from effective communication.  the only actual thing which can do this would be your own prejudice or predispossition toward a member of that section of society so don't play dumb granny you know exactly what i'm babbling about, why should punitive comparison to tourettes suffers which is desgined to be derogitory be an acceptable comment regardless of you distaste of anothers comments or opinions... is that acceptable... in your own mind... 

you mask has well slipped love...


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> 2. true enough largerly this is however due to increased taxation meaning that people have less dispossable income couplled with higher working hours creating a situation where work time balance is distorted, the last thing you want to do after a long workign day is get hamer to fuckry when you have to get up and do it all again the next day...


Well that and the vast array of alternative entertainment options now available to people and the massively plummeting cost of takeaway booze.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> FFS read my posts. Which country does UK most resemble culturally, Ireland or US?



This should be interesting-tell me the cultural differences  that explain away the _increase_ in business in pubs/clubs etc in NY following the ban.


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> 1. You do appear to object to any smoking pubs at all because your friends will drag you there. Forgive me if that is not what you meant.


 I've already explained my reasons why I think smoking should be banned from all pubs and that includes the welfare of the staff as well as my own desire not to be forced to inhale dangerous fumes. Perhaps you failed to see those clearly raised points earlier?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well that and the vast array of alternative entertainment options now available to people and the massively plummeting cost of takeaway booze.


yeah and of course the freeing up of licening times and places it was un heard of say 50 years ago to have an alchol section let alone wine secition in nearly all shops, indeed the sucessive normaliseation of off licences was still happening when i was little... there were only some offies whcih eixisted and had secifc hours which they were open etc...


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> your words...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh do shut up garf-you're tedious in the extreme.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> This should be interesting-tell me the cultural differences  that explain away the _increase_ in business in pubs/clubs etc in NY following the ban.


I repeat for the hard of reading: 

I CLAIM NO KNOWLEDGE OF NY.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> This should be interesting-tell me the cultural differences  that explain away the _increase_ in business in pubs/clubs etc in NY following the ban.


is this you actually accepting that there are cutral diferences between the uk the usa and ireland in which case can you also do the same and provide a list of them as i've asked you 3 times now...


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> This should be interesting-tell me the cultural differences  that explain away the _increase_ in business in pubs/clubs etc in NY following the ban.


Let's look closer to home: overall business was up in Scotland after the ban for pubs that offered food:


> Analysts said pub operators deriving most of their revenue from alcohol were likely to suffer when the smoking ban is introduced but those serving food could see an increase in trade as more non-smokers chose to eat in pubs.
> 
> This was backed up in a trading statement from Mitchells & Butlers, which owns the All Bar One and Harvester chains. It said yesterday that drinks sales fell 1% in Scotland since the smoking ban, while food sales were up 11%. Overall sales increased by 2.6% in Scotland since the introduction of the smoking ban in March, compared with 3.8% for Britain overall.
> http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1881745,00.html


----------



## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

Well i'm sure the Welsh economy is trembling at the prospect...

I'm off down the pub anyway, hwyl fawr i bawb


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Oh do shut up garf-you're tedious in the extreme.


do i take it that you aren't able to substatiate your use of bigotry, unwarrented personal abuse, or off-topic attacks in order to attempt to negate the comments made which dash yours to the very rocks... 

you are right it's very tiedious to have some one attempting to play the pioty card continually when they reveal themselves to be an unthinking bigot, if you are bored dear frond then cease being boring...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Let's look closer to home: overall business was up in Scotland after the ban for pubs that offered food:


So much for the nice pubs that my Mum and Dad would like. What about the grotty ones? 

All this bloody nicey nicey cleanliness. Not all pubs should be like that, I think. I will mourn the passing of the grotty British pub.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> is this you actually accepting that there are cutral diferences between the uk the usa and ireland in which case can you also do the same and provide a list of them as i've asked you 3 times now...



It has been suggested there are cultural differences between the UK and NY when it comes to the smoking ban and perhaps this is the reason why NY trade hasnt suffered...Im still waiting for those 'cultural differences' that explains away such an anomaly.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> , unwarrented personal abuse,



Dear oh dear  


People in glass houses and all that shit....


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> So much for the nice pubs that my Mum and Dad would like. What about the grotty ones?
> 
> All this bloody nicey nicey cleanliness. Not all pubs should be like that, I think. I will mourn the passing of the grotty British pub.


I will too, but all you can do is support the ones you like - after all, if the punters keep on coming, then there's a good chance they'll stay open.

I never drink in the Wetherspoons in Brixton, for example, but we've already lost some great pubs.

But the simple fact is that people are voting with their wallets that they want the corporate shiny niceness of Wetherspoon-type boozers. The fact that they've _already_ implemented a non smoking policy a year ago and are doing very well kind of scuppers the 'smoking kills pubs' argument too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4201053.stm


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> It has been suggested there are cultural differences between the UK and NY when it comes to the smoking ban and perhaps this is the reason why NY trade hasnt suffered...Im still waiting for those 'cultural differences' that explains away such an anomaly.


i would imagine it would go something like this... 

the states has a predericition with following orders, laws and the like and has installed this idea into their general population largely becuase of fear and also intimiadation, this couplled with and entire culture formed around beer advertising and the bar lifestyle which is become more and more infantile in it's adoption couplled with the anthropological nature of the country being still relatively new in terms of culture and the ecomomies of scale meaning there is a significant equiverlent of working class which will poplate all areas of the country inclding new york leads to along with a differeing political and social logical out look a different attitude and indeed prefference for attending bars and clubs. than the UK and or ireland...

are you seriously making any form of suggestion there is not a cultural difference between the three counties... if so state the homgenity ...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Dear oh dear
> 
> 
> People in glass houses and all that shit....


shouldn't be using a disability as a term of abuse... love...


----------



## pogofish (Apr 4, 2007)

lunatrick said:
			
		

> I say good - for once wales is leading the way in the uk..(ok mainland uk)



Would that be leading it a full year after Scotland then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> It has been suggested there are cultural differences between the UK and NY when it comes to the smoking ban and perhaps this is the reason why NY trade hasnt suffered....


My suggestion was that the UK and its drinking culture are much more like Ireland, so this is the country whose experience should be looked at more closely.


----------



## pogofish (Apr 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Let's look closer to home: overall business was up in Scotland after the ban for pubs that offered food:



Once again, just like in Ireland, it was a tale of two markets - Some pubs catering for some types of customer did well whilst other more traditional pubs did badly.  

Here - The SLTA finds an overall drop in buissness of about 10%, which was greater than even they predicted pre-ban.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5276680.stm

Also, like them or not, the SLTA are a body far more representative of the traditional Scottish pub than the owners of Harvester (bypass pubs) & All Bar One (are there even any of those in Scotland yet?)


BTW, the Wetherspoons no-smoking policy of 2006 was a pure publicity stunt, nothing else - *It didn't happen!*  Not one of the pubs they claimed would go non-smoking well before the Scottish ban ever changed & according to the following, they only had 90-odd of their 600+ pubs as non-smoking by the target date set for England. 

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ccaajpa/pubs-spoons.html


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> shouldn't be using a disability as a term of abuse... love...




Yes...that was a form of abuse like my experiences are an experession of sexism and bigotry-yes garf-most interesting


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Yes...that was a form of abuse like my experiences are an experession of sexism and bigotry-yes garf-most interesting


your words love...


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> i would imagine it would go something like this...
> 
> the states has a predericition with following orders, laws and the like and has installed this idea into their general population largely becuase of fear and also intimiadation, this couplled with and entire culture formed around beer advertising and the bar lifestyle which is become more and more infantile in it's adoption couplled with the anthropological nature of the country being still relatively new in terms of culture and the ecomomies of scale meaning there is a significant equiverlent of working class which will poplate all areas of the country inclding new york leads to along with a differeing political and social logical out look a different attitude and indeed prefference for attending bars and clubs. than the UK and or ireland...
> 
> *are you seriously making any form of suggestion there is not a cultural difference between the three counties... if so state the homgenity ...*



No garf Im not-what I am suggesting that I fail to see the cultural differences that can explain away the increase in business for the service industry in NY. 

And that still remains the case even after your long winded explanation.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> your words love...



Give it a rest eh garf-and i'm not your love you sexist pig drone drone drone Ad infinitum


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> No garf Im not-what I am suggesting that I fail to see the cultural differences that can explain away the increase in business for the service industry in NY.
> 
> And that still remains the case even after your long winded explanation.


kindly quote the right bloody post unless you are going to dart back and forth and please respond to the questions posed rather than the asummed ones not... as for beign long winded i'm sorry that a detailed explaination of the cutural differences you cannot see are causing you eye strain...

really what is your point now???

you won't accept others POV or even debate with them on those terms which you previously demand they debate on you are as inconsistant as quicksand....


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Give it a rest eh garf-and i'm not your love you sexist pig drone drone drone Ad infinitum


again with the offtpic abuse... again if your are bored then cease beign boring...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Give it a rest eh garf-and i'm not your love you sexist pig drone drone drone Ad infinitum


What's sexist about calling somebody love?


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> What's sexist about calling somebody love?




Its a joke-I thought seeing as garf liked to throw around facile labels I'd parody his posting style


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Its a joke-I thought seeing as garf liked to throw around facile labels I'd parody his posting style


OK, I see it now.  

*goes back to reading up on this human construct called 'humour'*


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Its a joke-I thought seeing as garf liked to throw around facile labels I'd parody his posting style


erm how is it faclie to point out your obvious derogtitory comment and ask why you said it... and what was your meanign behind such athing you drew the comparitive your made the comment you should if you have half a mind to be able to justify your words when questioned.  and tbf i don't think that your current comment can in anyway be justified, and is indefensible.  

just as btw using sexist terminology is also indefensible even if it's beign used against men rather than women... 

face it you are letting your nasty side show more often and you are being called on it... 

it's not accetable to say to other posters ha you act like a spakka which is the essence of what you said, or well you deservie it your a man... which is the essence of what you were defending... but hey, lap it up ... you go on defending that shit if you want ... but don't think it doesn't reduce the wieght of your other arguements or mark you down as being an irrlievent bigot... 

as for people being long winded, sorry love, but you can't control other people much as you attempt to...


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 4, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> erm how is it faclie to point out your obvious derogtitory comment and ask why you said it... and what was your meanign behind such athing you drew the comparitive your made the comment you should if you have half a mind to be able to justify your words when questioned.  and tbf i don't think that your current comment can in anyway be justified, and is indefensible.
> 
> just as btw using sexist terminology is also indefensible even if it's beign used against men rather than women...
> 
> ...




Do you know what garf? I never used to understand why some urbanites seemed to dislike you. That was until something I posted in a F4J thread didnt sit well with you and you launched into a tirade of abuse including laughingly labels like bigot and sexist. 

Now in this thread you started off an exchange with myself with a torrent of abuse which suggest you not only have a large chip on your shoulder but a stinking attitude. If my 'mask' is slipping then likewise the real you is becoming apparant to me. You're a nasty piece of work whose myopic style of debate leaves a lot to be desired.

I dont spend a great deal of time on Urban-but the time I do spend I'd rather not listen to your abusive & sneering outbursts and endless rants of what you assume me (someone you have never met) to be.

So congratulations garf on being the first and no doubt only person to be on my ignore list.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 4, 2007)

Grandma Death said:
			
		

> Do you know what garf? I never used to understand why some urbanites seemed to dislike you. That was until something I posted in a F4J thread didnt sit well with you and you launched into a tirade of abuse including laughingly labels like bigot and sexist.
> 
> Now in this thread you started off an exchange with myself with a torrent of abuse which suggest you not only have a large chip on your shoulder but a stinking attitude. If my 'mask' is slipping then likewise the real you is becoming apparant to me. You're a nasty piece of work whose myopic style of debate leaves a lot to be desired.
> 
> ...


yawn i commented on your cvomments you have taken this to be a personal attack after you patently wriggled and refused to quantify why cultural difference would affect things or for that matter justify why you'd find it accetpable to use a disablity as a form of insult... 

if you cannot stump up reasons for either of these and why on another thread which i haven't refference except when you have directly reffered to it, why it would be acceptable to make and invest in blatently sexist comments which others point out, not just me, to you then go ahead stick me on ignore... 

speaks volumes that cannot justify the comments you make but would rather throw you toys out... love...


----------



## lunatrick (Apr 4, 2007)

pogofish said:
			
		

> Would that be leading it a full year after Scotland then?




fair enough - I pull my foot out of my mouth....I didn't know that!


----------



## Badgers (Apr 5, 2007)

Anyone Welsh left in this thread?


----------



## llantwit (Apr 5, 2007)

I think Grandma Death is Welsh, so I'm on her side. Also, because GLC is being a wanker.
Smoking ban is going OK so far here from what I've seen. People huddled outside on the pavement outside the Glamorgan Staff Club. It was a tad odd being in that place without the smoke - but the worst thing about it was that the smell of old beer in the carpet was a lot more noticable.


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Apr 5, 2007)

Waent to the pub to meet a lady friend on monday, I was abit late, when I got a pint and sat down, she got up, put her coat on and went outside for a fag. anti-social druggie.

I am a cannabis user, do I get up and leave the pub mid-pint for a toke? No. I wait until I'm stumbling between boozers. Still, should I want to have a sly toke I now have a load of fag smokers to hide amoung I guess....


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Apr 5, 2007)

Major downside in the Murenger last night was other smells. I was stood by the bar doing the quiz (only 2nd - gutted), when someone dropped their guts during the picture round. fucking awful... I predict joss sticks becoming fashionable.


----------



## llantwit (Apr 5, 2007)

If people can't control their sphincters in public then it's their personal duty not to expose others to their noxious gasses. I begin the lobbying the Welsh Assembly tomorrow for a blanket ban on farting in public places. Who's with me. Think of the bar tenders!!!!


----------



## pogofish (Apr 5, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> but the worst thing about it was that the smell of old beer in the carpet was a lot more noticable.



Just wait till the pubs start buying industrial quantities of pot-pourri, cheap perfume-squirters & best of all - start burning incense or getting bloody *smoke machines* to cover it up! 

A Scottish pub the other week - with smoke machine going constantly.







The place also tends to have a whole pagan altar's worth of incence smouldering away too, band or no band!


----------



## llantwit (Apr 5, 2007)




----------



## pogofish (Apr 5, 2007)

Dic Penderyn said:
			
		

> I am a cannabis user, do I get up and leave the pub mid-pint for a toke? No. I wait until I'm stumbling between boozers. Still, should I want to have a sly toke I now have a load of fag smokers to hide amoung I guess....



Again, not really happening.  

Even though they don't hand-out many tickets, the increased level of inspection has made pubs/clubs much more sensitive about folk having a toke outside/in the shelter, even in places that used to be reasonable about turning a blind eye - the smoking inspectors here also got the power to report to the licencing board & the local "anti-drugs partnership", which thanks to the new licencing laws (virtually the same as yours) forcing near compulsory membership, makes it very easy for a pub/club to get in deep shit.  

In the meantime, coke seems to have become the pub-drug of choice after alcohol & I've never seen so many or such a wide variety of folk down in the bogs doing it!


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> 1. If you're a smoker, you'll want to go to a smoking pub because you're addicted to nicotine.


If your friends go to a non-smoking pub with a comfy outdoor smoking area will you be sat outside with them breathing in their 'stinking' fumes or will you be sat inside on your own?


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Let's look closer to home: overall business was up in Scotland after the ban for pubs that offered food:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So if sales in Scotland have increased by 2.6% since the ban compared with 3.8% in the rest of the UK then Scotland has experienced a relative 1.2% *drop* in sales since the smoking ban came into effect.


----------



## osterberg (Apr 5, 2007)

pogofish said:
			
		

> Just wait till the pubs start buying industrial quantities of pot-pourri, cheap perfume-squirters & best of all - start burning incense or getting bloody *smoke machines* to cover it up!
> 
> A Scottish pub the other week - with smoke machine going constantly.
> 
> ...



 Is that in Aberdeen,Pogofish? Whereabouts?
(That's where I'm from , you see )


----------



## pogofish (Apr 5, 2007)

The Moorings.  

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forum...thing-you-wanted-know-about-moorings-bar.html

http://www.myspace.com/themooringsbar

Still going strong after all these years & otherwise, still a top pub.   Used to be my local but I'm not in it so often these days.


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## editor (Apr 5, 2007)

WouldBe said:
			
		

> If your friends go to a non-smoking pub with a comfy outdoor smoking area will you be sat outside with them breathing in their 'stinking' fumes or will you be sat inside on your own?


I'd probably have no choice but to sit inside, given the choice of breathing in clean air or hanging out in a place stuffed full of stinking smokers.


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## editor (Apr 5, 2007)

Badgers said:
			
		

> Anyone Welsh left in this thread?


I'm still here!

Isn't it?


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## osterberg (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks,pogofish,that's the one down the road from the maritime museum,isn't it?
 When I lived in Aberdeen I tended to go to the Prince of Wales and the Blue Lamp with its incredible free juke-box full of prog rock.
 But that was a very,very long time ago.
Can't imagine the Blue Lamp being smoke-free.


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## pogofish (Apr 5, 2007)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Thanks,pogofish,that's the one down the road from the maritime museum,isn't it?
> When I lived in Aberdeen I tended to go to the Prince of Wales and the Blue Lamp with its incredible free juke-box full of prog rock.
> But that was a very,very long time ago.
> Can't imagine the Blue Lamp being smoke-free.



It is indeed.

Erm.  Looks like we drank in the same pubs then.   After the Moorings, the other two were amongst my next most likely - Also a long time ago!  You would barely recognise the Blue Lamp today - Upstairs is gone altogether & they have extended into the old warehouse next door to make a pretty decent if slightly up-market live venue.  Takes forever to get served at the tiny bar tho.  

The Prince however is still the Prince & its new owners have done very little to change it.  

I had the red Ducati that used to sit outside the Lampie & I think that jukebox is now part of my soul! 

If you can remember the jukebox, you ain't that old - OK!


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## spacemonkey (Apr 5, 2007)

Badgers said:
			
		

> Anyone Welsh left in this thread?



I'm still here & I work in a pub fulltime. It's brilliant & our pub hasn't suffered at all. We banned it a week before as well, due to a refurb.

Almost all our regular have taken it with good grace. They just nip out every 20mins & admit it's probably much better for them (you don't really need to smoke 3 fags per pint like I used to  )

So, a minor inconvenience for them. A massive improvement in health & working conditions for me!


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## geminisnake (Apr 5, 2007)

lunatrick said:
			
		

> I say good - for once wales is leading the way in the uk..(ok mainland uk)



 WTF?? You didn't know the ban on smoking is OVER a year old in Scotland??
Wales is hardly leading the way  

My daughter also works in a pub(at weekends) and like spacemonkey is happy to go home NOT stinking of smoke.


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## editor (Apr 5, 2007)

spacemonkey said:
			
		

> So, a minor inconvenience for them. A massive improvement in health & working conditions for me!


A win-win situation then!


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## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

definately a decent progressive step  go on da Wales, went to buffalo yesterday where i 'had' to sit in the beer garden with me bro who's a smoker and  then the clifton today which was well empty in the front bar but i didn't go and check their new 'good news' beer garden...  

how can it not be more than a benefit for everyones health?


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## Grandma Death (Apr 5, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I think Grandma Death is Welsh, so I'm on her side.



Born in scotland but brought up in wales-so I consider myself welsh   I am a he by the way  



> Also, because GLC is being a wanker.



Hey dont call GLC that-he'll start banging on about you being a wankerist


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## Gromit (Apr 5, 2007)

I went on a day time drinking sess today. The pubs with beer gardens were very popular with lots of smokers outside.

Pubs without beer gardens weren't so popular. 

All this may have just been because S Wales had a rare bit of sun but I'd be curious to know for certain or not whether the indoor could have played a part.

My mate mate a point whilst we discussing all this (its a popular convo piece with everyone ATM, could here other tables discussing it too) that when summer comes around all the non smokers will be wanting to use the beer gardens and will be moaning about all the smokers monopolising them.


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## pogofish (Apr 5, 2007)

That is exactly what happens on the better days. Never mind the surprising number of non-smokers who start bumming fags so they don't feel "left out" 

Also, there was a good reason behind them timing the ban to start with the lighter evenings up here too.  Wait till the end of autumn when the cold really sets-in & the novelty wears off.

One thing tho, good winter woollies will be a very welcome christmas present for most smokers this year!


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## mwgdrwg (Apr 5, 2007)

Clarity. I was in a pub for the first time yesterday and because there was no smoke I could see everything so clearly. Weird, but good.


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## Jim2k5 (Apr 6, 2007)

lol yeah, one thing i am enjoying is not getting smoke in my eye and trapped behind my glasses, stings like a bitch, but outside generally a bit of wind to blow it from my direction, so tis also healthy for my eye... i guess :S


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## la ressistance (Apr 7, 2007)

fucking non-smokers


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## lunatrick (Apr 7, 2007)

geminisnake said:
			
		

> WTF?? You didn't know the ban on smoking is OVER a year old in Scotland??
> Wales is hardly leading the way
> 
> My daughter also works in a pub(at weekends) and like spacemonkey is happy to go home NOT stinking of smoke.



read the thread.....





			
				pogofish said:
			
		

> Would that be leading it a full year after Scotland then?




fair enough - I pull my foot out of my mouth....I didn't know that!


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## StanSmith (Apr 9, 2007)

Well it was my first experience of smoke free pubs on Saturday during my visit to Cardiff on Saturday, and to be honest I thought it was great.

Not having clothes stinking of smoke was fantastic! Oh and before anyone moans yes I do smoke, not much but I do like a couple of ciggys on a night out.


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## Velouria (Apr 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I've just _gained_ the liberty not to have to inhale some cunt's poisonous and stinky fumes when I'm in Wales.


You seem to have changed your tune a bit since designing 'Urban75 Says: More Spliff For The Workers!' ...


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## editor (Apr 9, 2007)

Velouria said:
			
		

> You seem to have changed your tune a bit since designing 'Urban75 Says: More Spliff For The Workers!' ...


How's that then?


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## Velouria (Apr 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> How's that then?


Well you don't seem very pro-smoking of *anything* these days ...

Is it now 'Urban75 Says: Take Your Stinking Filthy Spliff Outside' ?


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## editor (Apr 9, 2007)

Velouria said:
			
		

> Well you don't seem very pro-smoking of *anything* these days ...
> 
> Is it now 'Urban75 Says: Take Your Stinking Filthy Spliff Outside' ?


It may have failed to catch your attention, but smoking a spliff in a pub has been banned for as long as I can remember. 

If you want to have a pop at me, try and formulate a half decent argument next time, eh?


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## Dr J (Apr 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I'd probably have no choice but to sit inside, given the choice of breathing in clean air or hanging out in a place stuffed full of stinking smokers.



Bourgeois puritan!


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## ddraig (Apr 11, 2007)

i was in lundun on the weekend and really noticed the smoke in the pubs after even just a week odd of no smoking in Cardiff, my eyes were stingin and it was foggy 

just seen this on bbc Wales your pictures site  







			
				bbc said:
			
		

> A mother Blue Tit feeding her young, after setting up a nest in an outside ashtray in Cardiff (Tony Woodrow)


awww


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## la ressistance (Apr 11, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It may have failed to catch your attention, but smoking a spliff in a pub has been banned for as long as I can remember.
> 
> If you want to have a pop at me, try and formulate a half decent argument next time, eh?




i thought that was a pretty decent argument myself.

it's fine to smoke weed just as long as it's not in pubs


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