# NO2ID gig this Friday (11th)



## penderyn2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

There's a No2ID gig this Friday at Koko Gorillaz, Cardiff - more details at http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518455061#/event.php?eid=22608565699&ref=mf where you'll also find an interesting little debate with one of the organisers who defends No2ID's links with far-right groups such as the Freedom Association.  Be interested to hear others' opinions on this.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm sick of getting ID'd in Morrisons too. 

No to ID!


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## ddraig (Jul 8, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> There's a No2ID gig this Friday at Koko Gorillaz, Cardiff - more details at http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518455061#/event.php?eid=22608565699&ref=mf where you'll also find an interesting little debate with one of the organisers who defends No2ID's links with far-right groups such as the Freedom Association.  Be interested to hear others' opinions on this.



ta for that.
some of us are not on facebook for good reason and won't even click on shit there.

can someone c n p the stuff over ere please?
and wtf koko gorillaz?


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

There's an ad for the gig at http://radicalsocialist.org if you don't want to go to facebook.
As for the debate, there's too much to c and p.  The gist is, (organiser) just keep everyone who's against ID cards together, (socialist) but these people are not only far right but the absolute enemies of civil liberties except the ones which affect them (eg Freedom Association paved way to crushing of union rights).
I might also add the anti-ID campaign is little more than a lobbying organisation because you could never put its supporters in a room together.


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## purplex (Jul 9, 2008)

Opposition to ID cards is ridiculous.
They work for other european countries without bother, why not here?


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 9, 2008)

But Purplex, of course you think ID cards are a good idea.  You're also for birching kids who cheek their elders.  MInd you, that's probably the view of UKIP, the Freedom Association and all the other rightwingers who shouldn't be in this campaign.


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## llantwit (Jul 9, 2008)

purplex said:


> Opposition to ID cards is ridiculous.
> They work for other european countries without bother, why not here?


Well, for lots of reasons. A few good ones off the top of my head being: that when implicated all of our personal information will be centralised on one big database run by a private company which is ripe for myriad security failures and abuse down the line; carrying them will be compulsory and representatives of the state such as police) will be able to demand who you are and you will have to tell them (also ripe for abuse - which you'll know if you've ever demonstrated at a gathering the police don't really want you to be at).
There's loads more arguments at the No2ID site and Liberty which are well worth a read if you're really interested in the arguments against.


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## llantwit (Jul 9, 2008)

From No2ID:


> Many western countries that have ID cards do not have a shared register. Mostly ID cards have been limited in use, with strong legal privacy protections. In Germany centralisation is forbidden for historical reasons, and when cards are replaced, the records are not linked. Belgium has made use of modern encryption methods and local storage to protect privacy and prevent data-sharing, an approach opposite to the Home Office's. The UK scheme is closest to those of some Middle Eastern countries and of the People's Republic of China


This is what I suspected from my knowledge of the German system, too. It's just not the same kind of thing in practice.


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 10, 2008)

Article at http://radicalsocialist.org


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## Jazzz (Jul 10, 2008)

attempting to polarise this into a left-right issue is ridiculous

it's a case of wanting to protect civil liberties, that should hopefully include support from all sides.


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## ddraig (Jul 10, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> attempting to polarise this into a left-right issue is ridiculous
> 
> it's a case of wanting to protect civil liberties, that should hopefully include support from all sides.



not cunts like the 'freedom association' though!


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 12, 2008)

I do recommend people check out the comments on the article at http://radicalsocialist.org.  That will give you a fascinating insight into the mentality of local N02ID campaigners.  No2ID supporters from elsewhere have also commented, including one Tory supporter.  Though the fight against ID cards is as valid as ever, No2ID is surely not a campaign which socialists can support.
It would also be nice to have some socialists and anarchists supporting what we're saying!


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## Udo Erasmus (Jul 13, 2008)

I found it more fascinating as an insight into the mentality of Penderyn!

It seems that a (probably) well intentioned individual sets up an anti-ID card gig. Penderyn browses the list of supporters of NO2ID and notices a couple of quite right wing organisations (unfortunately he conflates UKIP a very right wing populist organisation with the far right muddying the debate) 

Now, Penderyn is quite right that a far right front group should not be allowed to be part of any campaign, but rather than raising a legitimate concern in a sensible manner he goes around behaving fanatically like the school bully that can only serve to antagonise people, posting up comments all over adverts for the gig about the far right, contacting _every band_ that is playing to warn them that NO2ID has links with the far right etc. 

If there was a need to set up local grassroots mass campaigns against ID cards, then having people from the mainstream right would also be problematic as naturally their arguments against ID cards would be different to ours, and also they wouldn't support the kind of tactics we would want to use - this is the good sense of the anti-capitalist movement, but we should also recognise the perfectly understandable commonsense view that a "one issue" campaign can involve everyone from the left to the right, this view must be challenged, but not by shouting at people!

Incidentally, Glancing at the list of supporters of No2ID I couldn't help but notice an organisation that Penderyn was involved in setting up and was the Secretary of!! Charity begins at home!

I attended a meeting that was attempting to launch a No2ID campaign in Cardiff a couple of years ago. At that time the Cardiff contact for No2ID, and the guy who convened the meeting was a supporter of Cardiff anarchists, a deputy-branch secretary of a trade union and anti-fascist. The very small meeting was attended by anarchists, socialists, Cymru Goch and a Plaid member. 

Many valid criticisms can be made of the NO2ID campaign, but Penderyn's behaviour gives sociaists a bad name.

Personally, until the time arises that we really need to get organised over ID cards, I'm not going to get too worked up about a paper campaign.


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Penderyn is quite right that a far right front group should not be allowed to be part of any campaign



Thank you Udo, for that message of support. If you had confined your comment to that rather than repeating what every apologist for the far right in No2ID has been saying, I would have considered it an exemplary act of solidarity of the kind the left seem less and less familiar with.

I was alerted to the fact the gig was happening a week before.  I knew at least three people performing, that they were strong socialists and anarchists, and that they surely would want to know that No2ID had links to the far right.  I had a quite cordial email discussion with them about the matter, and also with one of the organisers.  I have posted some of this at our website, and more on the No2ID board, where every single persion posting defended the far right link and instead attacked the left, including the SWP.

The organisers were quite aware about the links with the right since one of them's dad was a UKIP candidate.  It was only after this organiser contacted the bands, possibly repeating the downright lies he posted on the No2ID board, that I suddenly became public enemy no 1.  Before that some of the performers had thanked me for the information, and, as I say, I had nothing but cordial discussions about it.

An interesting post script is that while Udo Erasmus has problems only with what I've said and not the abusive comments driected at me, the second organiser has apologised for what he said in anger.

With a major No2ID event about to take place, does Udo Erasmus think no-one should have drawn attention to the far right involvement?  And if so, how exactly else should I have gone about it?  Having written the informative and measured artucle at www.radicalsocialist.org, should I have kept quiet about it and not drawn it to anyone's attention?  

For the nth time, I did not bully anybody or attempt to sabotage the event.  PR actually advertised the event, and the whole gist of what I said was geared to making the campaign against ID cards viable!

I do not know the source of the link to Cardiff Social Forum on the No2ID website.  CSF was never involved in the campaign.  

Being told by a supporter of the Respect project that I am giving the left a bad name does have a beautiful irony.  But believe me, no-one needs to give the left a bad name amongst the activists of No2ID I've come into contact with: it ia a cross-class popular front of the worst kind which in its current form no socialist should have anything to do with.  I assure Udo Erasmus that if it was him taking the flak for exposing the true nature of the campaign, I would not have let petty sectarianism prevent me from delivering solidarity.  If I felt he had gone about things the wrong way I would have informed him privately, not crowed about it on public forums.  The way things are going left solidarity may soon be a matter of basic self-preservation.


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## osterberg (Jul 14, 2008)

The NO2ID lot do seem to have gone a bit overboard on this if  all PR did was just talk to the bands.
 The comments on the Cardiff PR website are quite worrying.
Has the local NO2ID group been taken over by Tories? I wasn't even aware that there was a group in Cardiff.Perhaps if the left had been a bit more involved from the beginning the campaign would have been more inclusive and a bit more visible but that's by the by.
 It's all a bit of a shame given the attacks on what's left of our civil liberties.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jul 14, 2008)

To me, the sensationalist tabloid style of your exposee, telephoning all the bands to advise them that they were playing at a gig which had links to the far right seems a little OTT, and was the best way to antagonise to the organisers! You keep on claiming to have advertised the gig, but what decent people would want to attend a gig if they are told it is a front for the far right? 

The question is what exactly is the nature of NO2ID's links with the far right?
Penderyn's continued innuendo's of far right involvement, when clearly nobody from the far right was involved in the gig is unhelpful.



> I assure Udo Erasmus that if it was him taking the flak for exposing the true nature of the campaign, I would not have let petty sectarianism prevent me from delivering solidarity.



You see your language of "the true nature of the campaign" is somewhat misleading. I don't believe that NO2ID is a far right campaign. Also you seem perfectly capable of fighting your corner!

Also I understand that at the NO2ID London Mayoral hustings, NO2ID refused to give a platform to Richard Barnbrook of the BNP, while allowing Jenny Jones from the Green Party & Lindsey German, a socialist Mayoral candidate to speak. 

Further research shows that NO2ID spokespeople have explicitly resisted attempts from the BNP to link up with the campaign, for example:



> Robin Ashby of the No2ID campaign, said: "The BNP is linked to us through a one-way hyperlink. Unfortunately there is nothing No2ID can do to prevent anyone linking to its website, no matter what their views.
> 
> The BNP is in no way affiliated with No2ID. We are a non-partisan, single-issue campaigning organisation with policies of non-discrimination, non-violence and working within the law to oppose the Government's plans for ID cards."



Perhaps a better way to go about things would have been to commend NO2ID for rightly refusing to give a platform or be associated with the fascist BNP and raised concerns about the Freedom Association.

But to return to my original question - what exactly are the links of NO2ID with the far right? 

Tne only one I can see is that they invite organisations who oppose ID cards to email them to be added to the list of supporters:
http://www.no2id.net/about/supporters.php
And also invite Councils and bodies like the Assembly & unions to pass anti-ID card motions.

Presumably a couple of quite right wing organisations emailed them as well as the Scottish Socialist Party, Plaid Cymru. Charter 88. the Welsh Assembly and Cardiff Council et al.


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 14, 2008)

There's no Tories involved locally to my knowledge, and I certainly haven't claimed anything about local activists other than they support the involvement of far right groups.  What they have consistently said (and many others) is that No2ID is a campaign neither of left or right, just people against ID cards. However, check out http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=23223.  There's an awful lot of hostility to the left (not just me), no hostility to the right at all, and much apologising for them.  One guy says he doesn't agree with their immigration policies but that's about it. 

If nothing else, at the end of all this, at least people will know more about No2ID.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jul 14, 2008)

osterberg said:


> The NO2ID lot do seem to have gone a bit overboard on this if  all PR did was just talk to the bands.
> The comments on the Cardiff PR website are quite worrying.
> Has the local NO2ID group been taken over by Tories? I wasn't even aware that there was a group in Cardiff.Perhaps if the left had been a bit more involved from the beginning the campaign would have been more inclusive and a bit more visible but that's by the by.
> It's all a bit of a shame given the attacks on what's left of our civil liberties.



I don't know much about NO2ID, I first came across them when I read that Cardiff Social Forum was affiliated to them on the CSF site. Later I attended a stillborn attempt to set up a local group, which as I stated seemed to be convened by a trade unionist, anti-fascist and anarchist & TR from Cymru Goch. The trade unionist for a long time was the Cardiff contact on the NO2ID site.


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 14, 2008)

I wrote my previous post before I saw Udo's post #16, in which he repeats the misinformation that I phoned the bands - sensationalist tabloid expose?  Sorry, you've lost me.

I hope I haven't got to repeat everything I've written for Udo's benefit, but (a) to my mind the fact there are web links to far right organisations is bad enough, (b) members of these groups are welcome at No2ID AGMs.  Or does Udo think these groups are not bothering to capitalise on the ID card campaign?  (c) again, I have not made any allegations about the local campaign!

However, the discussions on the link above will surely alert Udo to the fact that No2ID is not exactly stuffed full with pinko liberals.

Good, they've barred the BNP.  That's a start.  But doesn't the BNP's interest justify what I've been saying about the far right trying to make hay out of this issue?  

Now how about focussing on what we're going to do about this problem?


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## Dic Penderyn (Jul 14, 2008)

Members of No Borders South Wales used the opportunity of the gig to give out copies of our new leaflet against ID cards that draws attention to the way in which migrants are being used as a testing ground for a repressive system that the UK government wants to impose on everyone.

We encourage opponents of ID cards to look at what is happening with the control of migrants, and see the thin end of wedge of the surveillance society. No doubt some of the less libertarian supporters of NO2ID would disagree with our stance on freedom of movement, hopefully others will agree. We wholeheartedly believe that the frontline of opposition to the creeping surveillance state is the defence of migrants, especially asylum seekers.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jul 17, 2008)

My earlier comments about penderyn were possibly a little injust. However, I think he is over-egging the pudding a bit. I think his claims of links between NO2ID and the far right are over exaggerated and the way he presents them misleading, I don't think it was an emergency situation where all the bands needed to be contacted to be warned that they were playing for a campaign with links with the far right. As far as I can see, NO2ID no platformed the BNP, and there is no evidence of the far right being actively involved in the group at any level, except that a group called the Freedom Association chaired by a Tory MEP has added it's name to the diverse list of supporters.


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 17, 2008)

Ok, let's not revisit all the arguments again, but socialists are still faced with the quetion of whether this campaign is supportable.  Regardless of how right wing are No2ID's supporters, or how involved TFA etc are, there is no doubt that the ID cards issue is mobilising large and small capitalists, consultants etc as much as it is workers and students.  No2ID, registered as a limited company and structured like one,  is the clearest reflection of this.  
Certainly in my view (PR haven't yet discussed No2ID as a group), any campaign which involves the class enemy (generally known as a popular front) is a campaign to be avoided.  It could be argued that there is no reason to be involved in it anyway in order to campaign against ID cards and the database state.  But if No2ID begins to mobilise large numbers of young people, I think the left needs to think about building an alternative.


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## Gnoxulf (Jul 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> *To me, the sensationalist tabloid style of your exposee, telephoning all the bands to advise them that they were playing at a gig which had links to the far right seems a little OTT, and was the best way to antagonise to the organisers! You keep on claiming to have advertised the gig, but what decent people would want to attend a gig if they are told it is a front for the far right? *
> 
> The question is what exactly is the nature of NO2ID's links with the far right?
> Penderyn's continued innuendo's of far right involvement, when clearly nobody from the far right was involved in the gig is unhelpful.
> ...




Thank you very much.

Despite CONTINUALLY explaining that this is a "single issue campaign" and that anybody who is against the continuing centralisation and collection of data about us by this government is welcome to help us, he continues to spread lies about us having "far-right links" or whatever.

The list of "supporters" on the main NO2ID website is simply a list of groups who have publically expressed their dismay against us all being tagged and monitored. They are not necessariliy "members" and certainly do not have a vote at the AGM, as you seem to be implying. Precisely the point of this, is that the government's plans are so absurd, that EVERYBODY from the raving communists such as penderyn, through to the fascists at the other end of the spectrum and everybody inbetween are ALL AGAINST IT. This does not mean we have any "links to the far right", anymore than we have "links to the far left". It just means that people with extreme political views happen to agree with us.

The reason you are "public enemy no1", is because you continually keep posting all over the internet that we are an "organisation with links to the far-right", which is bordering on defamatory in my opinion. We were trying to have a benefit gig - which incidentally went down without fault, despite your attempted interference - to raise awareness about a specific SINGLE ISSUE. Individual personal political beliefs besides this are irrelevant.

There are people in the organisation on both the left, the right, the centre and those who couldn't give a shit about the political spectrum but just don't think this is a very good idea.

There are just as many people who would not want to have anything to do with it if they were told it was a front for the "far-left", which is ironically what our friend mr Penderyn seems to want to make of it.

You will notice on the www.no2id.net/ forums, active suppression of any mention of the BNP for all the reasons mentioned above. We don't want anything to do with them either.

For the record, I am very much a lefty and I have black African relatives, and am therefore no particular fan of the extreme right either. I also have some viewpoints which many people would strongly disagree with, but I keep them out of this campaign. They're nothing to do with it.

This has already been covered elsewhere before, but I'm bored and have just joined this forum on the advice of a friend, so I thought I'd address the issue here.


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## Gnoxulf (Jul 18, 2008)

For those who couldn't be bothered to read to the bottom of that link 



> Robin Ashby of the No2ID campaign, said: "The BNP is linked to us through a one-way hyperlink. Unfortunately there is nothing No2ID can do to prevent anyone linking to its website, no matter what their views.
> 
> "The BNP is in no way affiliated with No2ID. We are a non-partisan, single-issue campaigning organisation with policies of non-discrimination, non-violence and working within the law to oppose the Government's plans for ID cards."



http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16695413&method=full&siteid=50081-name_page.html


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 18, 2008)

I posted a message on Facebook to apologise in case anybody mistakenly got the impression that I was implicating the organisers of the gig when discussing the involvement of right wing groups in N02ID.  I made it clear again that PR had advertised the gig prominently on our homepage.  The message was removed.  

I won't reveal what you wrote originally on this forum, Gnoxulf, because you had the wisdom to edit it, but you're not coming across as a great friend of freedom.  There's no political activity without debate and it's no good creating enemies for life every time someone does or says something you disagree with.  I've had some heated arguments with people on this forum such as Udo and Llantwit but we still pass the time of day at the many political events we take part in.  

You can't keep politics out of a political campaign.  Robin Ashby's statement is political - it establishes (eg) that No2ID will work within the framework of the law.  Even CND would never make such a statement; civil disobedience has been a part of a hundred campaigns, from mass trespasses to establish rights of way to protests about the right to be naked in public.  So who determined what No2IDs principles are?  That's another political issue - whether the campaign should remain a meritocracy or have a proper democratic structure.  Then there is the big issue which both No Borders and myself have been raising as to whether anti-ID campaigners can divorce themselves from the monitoring of migrant workers and asylum-seekers.  The latest No2ID newsletter discusses the very issue I raised in the website article - the fingerprinting of Romanies by the far-right government in Italy.  Shouldn't anti-ID activists be discussing such issues, and shouldn't such discussions involve asking what the far right are up to here?  

And BTW, I may be a 'raving communist', but over a quarter of a million people have been happy to read what I've written, so I'm sure I'll withstand your insults.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jul 19, 2008)

> Robin Ashby's statement is political - it establishes (eg) that No2ID will work within the framework of the law



It suggests he is a bit confused, as one of NO2ID's campaigns. is to ask people to sign a public pledge to refuse to carry an ID card, an act of civil disobedience and breaking of the law (and very popular among prospective electoral candidates and politicians for a press release).

The laws are made by the rich and powerful, I generally agree with Bertolt Brecht: "Which is the greater crime: To rob a bank or own one?"

Gnoxulf, I take issue with a few of your formulations:

Firstly, I would resist the equation of far left and far right being equivalents. I take exception to your phrase "raving communist". There is a general attempt among liberals to portray people of the left as fanatical, irrational ideologues. Actually, as a marxist myself, I consider myself to have a perfectly rational, coherent, and thought out world view. Generally, I find it is liberals and the mainstream political spectrum whose political positions are ill-thought out, contradictory and down right wrong.



> There are just as many people who would not want to have anything to do with it if they were told it was a front for the "far-left", which is ironically what our friend mr Penderyn seems to want to make of it.



I understand your point, but actually the biggest and broadest mass campaigns in Britain have been initiated by the far left! One thinks of the Stop the War Coalition, the Anti-Nazi League and Rock against Racism, the anti-Poll Tax movement, the road protests, the movement against the criminal justice bill. The Stop the War Coalition despite having a strong core linked with the far left pulled off the biggest demonstration in British history and has support from churches, mosques, trade unions, MPs and other mainstream organisations. The far left involvement also gave it political clarity, if it had been led by mainstream politics it would have probably swung behind the war when the invasion began (as the LibDems did),  failed to oppose the occupation of Iraq from day one etc.

I also diverge with your thinking about a single issue campaign. The Stop the War Coalition, for example, was launched around a very simple three point programme - 1) No to war 2) Defend civil liberties 3) oppose the racist backlash that will result from war - while effort is made sure that the movement is open to everyone who supports these broad demands, within the movement, different groups are free to raise a variety of issues and analyses, indeed, the single issue focus is often linked to a variety of issues - poverty, ineqaulity, capitalism, socialism, trade union struggles - in speeches, leaflets, meetings and protests, debate, and specific contingents in the mass demonstrations called on broad slogans that don't demand that people attend support these other issues. I personally am not a one-issue person, and hope that campaigns against various injustices lead to people developing a more generalised critique of society.

I also think that any campaign has to draw a line in the sand and say that fascists and nazis are not welcome. 

I also understand your thinking that the more people who support a campaign from across the political spectrum the better. This is a seemingly logical position. But if we think more deeply then we see a couple of problems:

1) in terms of clarity of the argument of a campaign. There are many campaigns supported by people from the left and right of the spectrum but for different reasons.

Take matters pertaining to European Union, European Constitution and the EU. During the 2004 elections, I was campaigning for a left wing party called Respect. A friend of mine expressed concern that Respect was anti-European Union and anti-Euro, a position he associated with the right - certain Tories, UKIP etc - rather than with the left. 

I explained that the Right and Left opposed the Euro for entirely different reasons. For UKIP and some Tories it was about nationalism and xenophobia - Keep the Pound British, allign ourselves with American capitalism rather than the continent etc. Whereas for the Left the opposition was due to the Euro not being about working people, but the rich and wealthy in Europe trying to build up the EU as an economic bloc and in order to participate in the Euro you had to sign up to various binding commitments to restructure your economy along Thatcher-ite lines. 

If Left and Right were to organise together against their "common" opposition to the Euro the argument would be pretty muddled.

2) If ID cards are being implemented what kind of tactics will we need to use to block this? And will all the forces from the left to right support them, or be able to help build the kind of movement we need?

The tactic of breaking the law and refusing to carry an ID Card has been mentioned. Past history suggests that many mainstream political forces would baulk at such a tactic of mass civil disobedience. For example, in the 80s, the leadership of the Labour Party not only refused to support tactics of breaking the law but actively tried to sabotage these campaigns. For example, the campaign of mass non-payment of the Poll Tax that sank the tax was not supported by Labour.

Another area that will be key to resisting the implementation of ID Cards will be among those workers involved in the services and areas of society that will be implementing the scheme, trade unions that represent these workers can play a highly effective role in sabotaging the governments role.

However, the right wing of the political spectrum is rabidly anti-trade union. Most obviously the Tories tried to smash the trade unions, the LibDems want to ban strikes etc. So having a campaign where these forces are on board or gain prominence could alienate trade unions who are a key force that we need to mobilise to oppose ID cards!

The government is not stupid enough to implement ID Cards immediately,rather it is phasing them in.

The first step will be forcing groups like those on benefits and migrants to carry them. As the right wing of the political spectrum is generally anti-migrant and anti-the poor, if they were to gain prominence in the anti-ID card movement we would be fighting with one hand tied behind our backs as these groups already want to take away the civil liberties of people on benefits and migrants. Better to link up with those leading succesful campaigns in solidarity with the poor and migrants!

The introduction of ID cards is very pushed by the government within the framework of a right wing agenda:

"the Home Office would like society to believe that identity cards would "end terrorism ... benefit fraud ... illicit health service use ... identity theft ... and there would be no more queues and constant sunshine in Manchester".

Therefore the right wing are not going to be very useful allies in arguing against ID cards when they support much of the agenda that is the rationale for introducing them!


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## penderyn2000 (Jul 19, 2008)

Hear, hear.  One final postscript.  For the sin of criticising No2ID, not only have I been vilified by its supporters, but Gnoxulf has violated my anonymity on the No2ID forum and reported on what else I am posting at Urban 75.  Egged on by this, others have made use of internet searches to reveal what sites are registered in my name together with my address and phone number.  

You couldn't make it up.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jul 23, 2008)

No sign of Gnoxulf, I thought he was going to become a new member of our online community


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## moon23 (Jul 31, 2008)

NO2ID is not an anti-capitalist or right-wing organization, it’s aims a simple:

_i) To raise public awareness of the issues concerning ID cards, centralised identity registers and schemes involving the creation of a unique identifying number and/or biometrically based identifier(s) for each and every citizen.
ii) To research and evaluate any such schemes, legislation and initiatives that come to the attention of the Association in order to determine its position and response to each proposal.
iii) To lobby and campaign against the introduction of any scheme, legislation or administrative measures — as the Executive Committee sees fit — in the United Kingdom or elsewhere that might be detrimental or cause a fundamental change in the relationship between the citizen and the state in the United Kingdom, opposing also any initiatives that involve comprehensive data sharing without the fully-informed and explicit consent of the individual._


I was disappointed to see a left-wing activist trying to undermine an anti-ID card benefit gig (because lets face it that’s what you were doing). Isn’t it more important to give your support to defeating ID cards rather than trying to fracture a movement by putting up these sectarian divides? Stopping ID cards is all about working together with each other, if we focused on what we didn’t agree with no one would work together. Perhaps through their involvement with NO2ID some of these right wing groups might come to better understand some of the other issues at play, and left-wing groups might better understand the concerns of people on the right.  Personally I’ve found giving my time to the campaign very rewarding as it’s challenged me to work with and understand lot’s of different types of people. Not seeing everyone as the enemy all the time you might get a lot further in your own cause, it would certainly help you in realizing our shared humanity.


 There are quite a number of points that have been raised here and I’d like to respond further to a few of them

1.	NO2ID is an  unincorporated association that has a written constitution and holds AGMs. Motions are democratically passed at this AGM and has a democratically elected advisory board. To say it is undemocratic is defamatory. 

2.	Supporters of NO2ID are not necessarily affiliates or members. It would be totally unfeasible to disallow groups from saying they support the campaign because of other political views they hold (the exception being if they contriving our non-discrimination policy e.g. the BNP). As soon as you go down that root you open up a can of worms, I mean would vegans start boycotting NO2ID because they don’t have a policy on meat eating? 

3.	ID cards are going to affect every single person in the UK, of course people are going to have different reasons for opposing it. I work with everyone from Christians who oppose them on religious grounds (Mark of the beast) to Anarchist, to Marxist to Tories, to people who don’t have a political view but just think they are a bad idea. The fact that all these different people have been brought together on this campaign is truly something amazing. Of course it is challenging accommodating such a broad range of people within a single issue political campaign, but if it wasn’t done then it wouldn’t be such a strong campaign.

4.	UKIP are not a far-right organization, they are arguably a right-wing organization. However many people within the UKIP would describe themselves as Libertarian, being opposed to the EU not on Nationalistic or xenophobic reasons as you stereotype, but rather being opposed to bureaucratic and undemocratic governance by an EU super state. There is quite a split in UKIP at the moment between the ‘Tory Dinosaurs’ and a younger generation of Libertarians. I know this as I had my own preconceptions about the party challenged from meeting a UKIP MEP candidate that is also a local groups coordinator for NO2ID. Of course I’ll probably now be labeled a ‘right wing apologist’ for actually taking the time to understand their point of view.

5.	Local groups are not directly controlled by NO2ID, nor are members of a local group necessarily members of NO2ID. They are independent unincorporated associations that have permission to use the logo and materials. Different local groups have different political structures; some have decided to adopt a formal constitution whilst others have adopted a non-hierarchal consensus decision making policy. Far from being undemocratic it is a living de-centralized grass roots campaign, which allows for far more participatory decision making than many formalized collectivist political structures.

6.	For someone who went around online researching the numbers of band involved in the gig before phoning them up, you’re on shaky ground to go crying when people want to then look you up online. Some people suspect you of being a pay rolled pro-ID infiltrator, although most including myself think you are just sticking to a fundamental political belief; that political campaigns shouldn’t work with groups you think are against your political and ideological beliefs.

I’m sorry but you don’t have a political monopoly on the campaign against ID cards. If you aren’t prepared to work with others on the common ground you do share then I really don’t know how you expect to build the socialist future you dream of. If you want to create an elitist left-wing anti-Id card movement  that excludes people then do so, but please don’t try and sabotage NO2ID and undermine the fight against ID cards.


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## moon23 (Aug 6, 2008)

oh well no reply then


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 7, 2008)

maybe you scared him off


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## moon23 (Aug 7, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> maybe you scared him off




What but I didn't even use the scary smily


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 7, 2008)

I've simply died of boredom from hearing No2ID supporters repeating the same party line.   No, I did not attempt to disrupt a gig for Christ's sake!  No, I do not want to be involved in campaigns which only involve Marxists!  And as for the bollocks about No2ID democracy, the "democratic" No2ID campaign endorsed David Davis's election victory without reference to one member's opinion!  Who decided this?  If Stop the War had endorsed even one of its own officers in an election, STW activists would have been up in arms!
This summed up perfectly what is wrong with No2ID.  By fixating on the one issue of ID cards, they are actively building support for assholes like Davis. 
And if Moon can't tell the difference between emailing people (many of whom I knew) and posting details of their address, phone number and political activities on the web, please don't waste everybody's time with any more posts here, none of which I will be responding to.  I refer people back to the many arguments which have already been exhausted at www.radicalsocialist.org.


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## moon23 (Aug 7, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> I've simply died of boredom from hearing No2ID supporters repeating the same party line.   No, I did not attempt to disrupt a gig for Christ's sake!  No, I do not want to be involved in campaigns which only involve Marxists!  And as for the bollocks about No2ID democracy, the "democratic" No2ID campaign endorsed David Davis's election victory without reference to one member's opinion!  Who decided this?  If Stop the War had endorsed even one of its own officers in an election, STW activists would have been up in arms!
> This summed up perfectly what is wrong with No2ID.  By fixating on the one issue of ID cards, they are actively building support for assholes like Davis.
> And if Moon can't tell the difference between emailing people (many of whom I knew) and posting details of their address, phone number and political activities on the web, please don't waste everybody's time with any more posts here, none of which I will be responding to.  I refer people back to the many arguments which have already been exhausted at www.radicalsocialist.org.



Actually as someone who was involved in organizing NO2ID's involvement in the Haltemprice and Howden by-election I can assure you that every effort was made not to endorse any candidate during the campaign, or comment on other civil liberties issues e.g. 42 days but only to campaign on ID cards. It wasn’t just NO2ID that was involved in the by-election, there were a whole load of civil liberty organizations.

Let’s face it the sad reality is the Tories are the best chance of getting ID cards scrapped. Personally I don't like, but you are not going to get them scrapped if the campaign against them fails to connect with people across society rather than an enclave of radical lefties handing out in a Cardiff pub. Politics is about being pragmatic as well as idealistic sometimes.

What you think is wrong with NO2ID is actually key to it being a hugely successful campaign. To quote our general secretary _"This is no place for love of faction, decision-making by votes and conferences, unearned status, or any idea of 'accountability' as distinct from responsibility for getting things done"_

As I said it works with de-centralized groups who choose their own decision making process to get things done e.g. organizing fund raising gigs rather than spending our time moaning about how other campaigns are run isn’t a good use of your time. 
If you call yourself an activist then go and campaign against ID cards, Davis or the Freedom asscioation. Stop wasting your time sniping at people who are trying to protect your liberty and prevent you from having to carry and ID card. It’s clear your passionate about improving the world but are NO2ID really the enemy?


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 7, 2008)

Quote from No2ID home page:  "NO2ID congratulates David Davis on winning the Haltemprice and Howden by-election."

All local groups are overseen by an unelected local groups organiser who appoints No2ID activists to more powerful roles within the organisation.   

I do call myself an activist.  I've been an activist for over thirty years, slogging round doorsteps, holding meetings, manning stalls, leafleting, blocking roads, holding forth with a megaphone, fundraising - and also writing articles which raise the crucial issues: what Moon describes as sniping, but more enlightened people recognise as political debate.  

I don't normally spend time blowing my own trumpet, but owing to the huge amount of personal disparagement to which I've been subjected by No2ID supporters, some further evidence of my practical commitment to the battle for civil liberties may be gleaned from this recent review of my latest novel in Books For Keeps: 

The Last Free Cat
****
In a futuristic world controlled by the economic machinations of multinational corporations and state-led fear, the ownership of cats is strictly regulated on the basis that they spread the deadly strain of cat flu, HN51. But when teenager Jade finds an illegal or ‘free’ cat roaming in her garden, her determination to save the beautiful creature from extermination leads to a thrilling pursuit, in which Jade and her confidant, Kris, are hounded down as perpetrators of bio-terrorism.
This well-paced thriller works on a number of levels. Firstly, it is the story of the growth of regulation in society and a cynical analysis of the motivations that underlie this. Secondly, it is the story of Jade and the challenges she faces as she moves towards adulthood, including bereavement, concern over ‘fitting in’ with her peers and confusion regarding her relationship with Kris. Although she is in an extraordinary situation, these elements encourage identification with her character from ordinary readers. Most of all, however, this is a story of optimism and solidarity in the face of oppression. The beauty of the relationship between human and animal is touchingly conveyed and the book culminates in a sense of hope that is truly uplifting.
The overtly political and uncompromising nature of this book will not suit all readers, but it effectively explores the topical issue of encroaching state control in a way that others will find ripe for debate. RT

Finally, no-one who is calling for a vote for a Tory is protecting my civil liberties.  Like every other activist I suffered from the consequences of the Criminal Justice Act and anti-union laws introduced by the last Tory government, and the Terrorism acts supported by them in opposition.  We need to challenge all of them.

So thanks for the advice, Moon - now how about some critical thought of your own about this campaign?


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## moon23 (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm not questioning your commitment, just saying you could find something more meaningful to grind you axe at? If it's a political debate your after then perhaps you would care to open up your blog to receiving comments rather than accusing NO2ID supporters of spreading 'misinformation' then closing it down in a strop? Going around contacting people playing at a benifet gig like this just doesn't seem the right way to go about things.

A more reasonble way of voicing your concerns might have been to attend a NO2ID meeting and talk about them or join the campaign and create a proposal at the AGM. That might of actualy achived what you wanted a bit more.  Perhaps you should self-reflect on why so many people are pissed off with you?

Of course NO2ID isn't a perfect organization (what organization is), yet it's an organization run almost entirley by volunteers who doing what they think is best to stop ID cards and the Database state. 



_
"NO2ID congratulates David Davis on winning the Haltemprice and Howden by-election."_

Yes NO2ID would have congratulated any of the other anti-ID card candidates. Congratulating someone after an election is not the same as endorsing their campaign. NO2ID is non-partisan and has not ever, and will not ever support or endorse anyone in a parliamentary election. You need to get your facts straight.

_All local groups are overseen by an unelected local groups organizer who appoints No2ID activists to more powerful roles within the organization._

Wrong there is a local groups organizer who is appointed as a member of voluntary staff by the National coordinator who is in turn democratically elected by members of NO2ID. I can't think of many political campaigns that hold elections to appoint every single member of staff. 

The Local group coordinator provides support for local groups which are separate organizations in their own right and not part of NO2ID. In no way do they oversea groups, or have any power to decide what roles activist take within the local groups. It is possible for instance to belong to Brighton NO2ID and not NO2ID. Different local groups have different formations which have evolved organically at a grass roots level.  Some are small informal groups where no formal democractic structure is required, some work like anarchist meetings where noone is in charge, others are larger and have a more formal democratic committee structure and written constitution.

Seeing as i've been working on creating democractic constituions for local groups that wish them (which incidently I think don't lead to true democracy) I take exception to your claims that NO2ID is not democractic.


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 7, 2008)

Not only does this guy have unique insight into my own mind (eg that after a whole month of repetition of argument and insult at www.radicalsocialist.org, the comments were closed 'in a strop') but also into the minds of the organisers of No2ID who congratulated David Davis but would also have apparently congratulated other candidates!  
Really, Moon, if you can't see how undemocratic that Davis statement was, you really are blinded by loyalty: for the same reason all the people who have attacked me (not that many really, and all No2ID supporters) have felt obliged to defend the likes of UKIP and deny just how right wing they are, thus justifying the very point I've been making.  
Thanks for the further advice as to how to achieve more in politics - do you realise just how patronising you are?  However, the next step for me will be to discuss it within my group and then abide by the collective decision we make.  I shall certainly argue that we need to carry on the fight for civil liberties in other arenas than NO2ID.  Maybe some of the other socialists on here could get off the fence and agree or disagree?


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## moon23 (Aug 7, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> Not only does this guy have unique insight into my own mind (eg that after a whole month of repetition of argument and insult at www.radicalsocialist.org, the comments were closed 'in a strop') but also into the minds of the organisers of No2ID who congratulated David Davis but would also have apparently congratulated other candidates!
> Really, Moon, if you can't see how undemocratic that Davis statement was, you really are blinded by loyalty: for the same reason all the people who have attacked me (not that many really, and all No2ID supporters) have felt obliged to defend the likes of UKIP and deny just how right wing they are, thus justifying the very point I've been making.
> Thanks for the further advice as to how to achieve more in politics - do you realise just how patronising you are?  However, the next step for me will be to discuss it within my group and then abide by the collective decision we make.  I shall certainly argue that we need to carry on the fight for civil liberties in other arenas than NO2ID.  Maybe some of the other socialists on here could get off the fence and agree or disagree?



Your right I don't have an insight into your mind, so sorry if you didn't close it in a strop, it just seemed that way to me. I don't understand why you didn't allow the thread to continue if you were passionate about debate.

However I do know the thinking behind the Davis statement, and most people are sensible enough to recognize that it isn't anything party political but a statement of thanks to a politician that has taken a public stance on ID cards. Not every statement made by a campaign is democratically endorsed, Do Greenpeace  for instant consult all their memembers before making a press release or statement on their website? 

If you don't like NO2ID then maybe form a Defy ID group or simply campaign against ID cards with your own socialist groups. I know it's something minority socialist parites are good at but try to resist the urge to cause yet another split.


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 7, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> I don't normally spend time blowing my own trumpet, but owing to the huge amount of personal disparagement to which I've been subjected by No2ID supporters, some further evidence of my practical commitment to the battle for civil liberties may be gleaned from this recent review of my latest novel in Books For Keeps:
> 
> The Last Free Cat




Pure genius! Personal promotion seamlessly woven into angsty political debate  I love it. Personally I thought you should have quoted thebookbag.co.uk review - it was much more fulsome in its praise:



> I've read several very good chase novels for teenagers lately, but I think this one is my favourite. The writing is top notch and it has something for everyone. Take it as my tip for a major award.



So, any chance of a signed copy P2000?


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## llantwit (Aug 7, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> Maybe some of the other socialists on here could get off the fence and agree or disagree?


Fair comment. Although I'd imagine many people didn't rush to your aid because they were concerned by the accusation of you trying to scupper the gig by ringing round the bands and trying to persuade them not to play.
I came to this late as I was away for most of the debate, and didn't really keep up, but I've read the thread now and I'm with you politically on this. There's no point working with class enemies, and some of the right-wing libertarians who are against ID cards are nothing but that. To argue otherwise is politically naive.
Fuck me, Churchill was even against ID cards (at some stages of his career). Should we be standing shoulder to shoulder with his political heirs?
Can't be arsed arguing with the No2ID people on here, particularly, though. Especially given the bonkers pasting you seem to have got for trying to argue with them.  Sorry not to give support earlier.


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## moon23 (Aug 8, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Fair comment. Although I'd imagine many people didn't rush to your aid because they were concerned by the accusation of you trying to scupper the gig by ringing round the bands and trying to persuade them not to play.
> I came to this late as I was away for most of the debate, and didn't really keep up, but I've read the thread now and I'm with you politically on this. There's no point working with class enemies, and some of the right-wing libertarians who are against ID cards are nothing but that. To argue otherwise is politically naive.
> Fuck me, Churchill was even against ID cards (at some stages of his career). Should we be standing shoulder to shoulder with his political heirs?
> Can't be arsed arguing with the No2ID people on here, particularly, though. Especially given the bonkers pasting you seem to have got for trying to argue with them.  Sorry not to give support earlier.



Once again people are wrongly assuming that welcoming someone's anti-ID card message and supporting their stance on a single issue is the same as standing shoulder to shoulder with them. In no possible way could NO2ID be said to be standing shoulder to shoulder with anyone, seeing as it is not a political party but a single issue campaign group. It seems you object to the whole notion of single issue campaigns and would prefer everyone to be enaged in your own political agenda. Sorry but not everyone thinks in the same way, and there are lot's of different reaons for opposing ID cards. If you can't work with others who you disagree with on a shared problem then your not really very good socialists.

How do you honestly expect to further progressive politics if you are unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance? If you stereotype people as class enemies then you will only further entrench their opposition to your ideas. 

No wonder the socialist left is so isolated on the fringe of politics in this country.


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 8, 2008)

Thanks, Llantwit, but again can I clarify that accusation was totally untrue!  

What is true is that I was unaware of what stone I was turning in drawing attention to the right wing links on the NO2ID website.  The guy who accused me of being a state agent on the NO2ID forum, eg, is also a regular poster on www.democracyforum.co.uk where he and others engage in friendly banter with the BNP on the "non-racist" immigration discussion zone etc.  The far right have pitched themselves wholesale into the civil rights issue (the BNP have their own dedicated site, civilliberty.org.uk) while the left have shown scant interest in what is going on.  The quotes from NO2ID leaders about not needing conferences etc, let's get on with the action, is of course classic bureaucratspeak dedicated to ensuring that those in charge of NO2ID stay there.  They know that a fully functioning democracy in NO2ID will mean the left groups taking over and a major bust-up with the right.  NO2ID, as I have said, has been hamstrung by this and hence has never held a major national event.

It is unfortunate that several of those sympathetic to the involvement of right wing libertarians have been left libertarians.  This is not so surprising if your view of the state is as an abstracted authority rather than the instrument of control by the capitalist class. 

We do need an alternative IMO, but one which works alongside NO2ID activists and attempts to win them to a class perspective on the civil liberties issue.

As for the self-promotion, I plead guilty as charged - except I wrote that book as a weapon in the class war, and would happily not make a penny out of it if it converts 10,000 teenagers to an anti-capitalist worldview.  Signed copies are available to fully paid-up residents of a certain Cardiff inner-city area, so if that applies to you, pop round any time!


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 8, 2008)

Just to reply to Moon's point which I hadn't read - very significant you've assumed Llantwit is a socialist because he agrees with me.  
All these points have been discussed before on www.radicalsocialist.org, which is why the comments are closed there.  As socialists, PR continually work in campaigns and united fronts with people who are not socialists but share a limited common objective.  So, for example, we would have no problem with working with you against ID cards.  However, we have to draw a distinction when it comes to organised right-wing groups whose agendas are profoundly pro-capitalist and anti-working class.  They are not people who simply disagree with us, they are dedicated to opposing all we stand for.  And (once again!) they are the absolute enemies of basic civil liberties such as the right to strike, the right to protest, freedom of movement - and that's before we even get on to the subject of minorities and immigration!


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## llantwit (Aug 8, 2008)

moon23 said:


> Once again people are wrongly assuming that welcoming someone's anti-ID card message and supporting their stance on a single issue is the same as standing shoulder to shoulder with them. In no possible way could NO2ID be said to be standing shoulder to shoulder with anyone, seeing as it is not a political party but a single issue campaign group. It seems you object to the whole notion of single issue campaigns and would prefer everyone to be enaged in your own political agenda. Sorry but not everyone thinks in the same way, and there are lot's of different reaons for opposing ID cards. If you can't work with others who you disagree with on a shared problem then your not really very good socialists.


I'm not saying No2ID is standing shoulder to shoulder. I'm just saying that I (me, moi, ich) don't want to work with people who can reasonable be described as class enemies politically. So don't get your knickers in a twist.
Work with whoever you want to, and get on with it. If you want to see my decisions as misguided, sectarian, whatever, then go ahead dude. All power to you.


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## llantwit (Aug 8, 2008)

moon23 said:


> How do you honestly expect to further progressive politics if you are unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance? If you stereotype people as class enemies then you will only further entrench their opposition to your ideas.
> 
> No wonder the socialist left is so isolated on the fringe of politics in this country.



I'm more than happy to engage with anyone about my politics and the issues I care about - but I'm not really happy to work or campaign alongside people who I deem class enemies. It's not a 'stereotype', mate... I'm kind of lazily using the term to refer to people whose politics are diametrically opposed to my own on ceretain fundamental issues (like land ownership, ownership of the means of production, democracy, liberty, etc). 

Like Penderyn I'm more than happy to work with other people from various walks of political life and have done so many times in the past, not that I'm about to give you my activist CV, though.... That I draw the line at tories, fash, and shady right-wing groups, and have certain clear ideas about the internal democracy of campaign groups hardly means I'm ' unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance', as you suggest.

But go ahead and do what you feel, moon... I'm not trying to tell you what to do, or making silly sweeping statements about your politics or personality based on very little knowledge of who you are or what you've done in the past. So stop doing it to me.


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## llantwit (Aug 8, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> Thanks, Llantwit, but again can I clarify that accusation was totally untrue!


Sure, I believe you, of course! But it's a damaging and personally spiteful accusation to make. I'd be well pissed off if it was me.


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## Dic Penderyn (Aug 8, 2008)

The fact of the matter is ID cards already exist, Asylum Seekers already have them and have since 2002, migrant workers and foreign students will have them soon. That NO2ID hasn't been rushing to defend the rights of asylum seekers seems due to their desire to keep on board those who harbour racist connotations about the free movement of people.

UKIP et al are my class enemy, that's not stereotyping it's just being realistic about who would make life worse for me and people in the same economic position in society as me. More than that anyone who opposes the principle of free migration is, quite frankly, an enemy of freedom. If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas. 

Very few right wing Libertarians exist in this country, how anyone can claim to be a Libertarian yet demand harsher asylum laws (like the UK Libertarian Party does) is totally beyond me. I'd be quite happy to work with Libertarians from the pro-capitalist camp on a civil liberties issue such as border controls, asylum, ID cards etc but the racist little englanders who pose as Libertarians to hide their bigotry can fuck right off.

All that said I've met and am friendly with people involved in the Cardiff NO2ID group and wish they luck in promoting the issue locally, they don't come from the same political position as me, and that's fine, these arguments were had about the NO2ID campaign years ago and was a reason why anarchists like me got involved in things like DEFY-ID. No Borders South Wales have started to work on the ID cards issue, and will be making noises about it in the future.


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## moon23 (Aug 8, 2008)

llantwit said:


> I'm more than happy to engage with anyone about my politics and the issues I care about - but I'm not really happy to work or campaign alongside people who I deem class enemies. It's not a 'stereotype', mate... I'm kind of lazily using the term to refer to people whose politics are diametrically opposed to my own on ceretain fundamental issues (like land ownership, ownership of the means of production, democracy, liberty, etc).
> 
> Like Penderyn I'm more than happy to work with other people from various walks of political life and have done so many times in the past, not that I'm about to give you my activist CV, though.... That I draw the line at tories, fash, and shady right-wing groups, and have certain clear ideas about the internal democracy of campaign groups hardly means I'm ' unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance', as you suggest.



NO2ID Is the most political diverse campaign I have ever been involved in, and I’m sure it’s just as challenging for Tories, Christians to work with an anarchist like myself as it is for me to work with them. What unites most supporters and members of the campaign is a shared understanding that ID cards are bad things. Personally I’m glad that I took the time to talk and listen to people who I otherwise might have dismissed for simply belonging to a party like UKIP. I think things like our civil liberties are so important that party politics shouldn’t come into it. 

I understand your position and in a way I respect that you have a set of principles that prevent you from working with certain people even if I disagree with such a principle strongly.


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## moon23 (Aug 8, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> The fact of the matter is ID cards already exist, Asylum Seekers already have them and have since 2002, migrant workers and foreign students will have them soon. That NO2ID hasn't been rushing to defend the rights of asylum seekers seems due to their desire to keep on board those who harbour racist connotations about the free movement of people.
> 
> UKIP et al are my class enemy, that's not stereotyping it's just being realistic about who would make life worse for me and people in the same economic position in society as me. More than that anyone who opposes the principle of free migration is, quite frankly, an enemy of freedom. If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.
> 
> ...



NO2ID has regular contact with quite a few No Borders groups and is accutle aware of the governemnt's plans to go after vulnerable groups first. It has a legal team that is looking into the possibilty of launching action to defend the rights of foreign students. Indivdual local groups within NO2ID have a large degree of autonomy so perhaps it's just the Cardfiff group that have lead to such a bad rep to having links with the right? I don't know that group so I couldn't comment. Anyway my experince of NO2ID is very different from that.

I don't think that capitalism is always the key to whether a state is authoritarian or not because there are plenty of authoritarian communist states.

If Defy-ID was a more active then that would be no bad thing in my view.


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## Dic Penderyn (Aug 8, 2008)

moon23 said:


> I don't think that capitalism is always the key to whether a state is authoritarian or not because there are plenty of authoritarian communist states.



You'll find no argument on that with me.

I find myself working with members of authoritarian left on issues of common ground, and as I have just stated I would work with the Libertarian right (if they actually existed in any tangible form in the UK) on issues of common ground. 

I draw the line at the authoritarian right however.


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## moon23 (Aug 8, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> You'll find no argument on that with me.
> 
> I find myself working with members of authoritarian left on issues of common ground, and as I have just stated I would work with the Libertarian right (if they actually existed in any tangible form in the UK) on issues of common ground.
> 
> I draw the line at the authoritarian right however.



Well I agree with you on that.


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 8, 2008)

moon23 said:


> How do you honestly expect to further progressive politics if you are unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance? If you stereotype people as class enemies then you will only further entrench their opposition to your ideas.



Moon, you seem to have a fairly generous notion of how "all-inclusive" society is... you seem not to have grasped the nettle that there are elements in society whose interests are fundamentally opposed to the interests of the greater number of that society. Any redistribution of this world's resources in _anything like_ a more just fashion will inevitably generate conflict - it beggars belief that this should need stating. Hence, regardless of however remote that possibility might be, of a just redistribution of our shared resources, in this particular country at this particular time, the simple fact remains that there are people out there who are enjoying themselves enormously _at our expense._

Calling them class enemies is shorthand. Short, but effective, and accurate. Refusing to have anything to do with them is common sense. Hoping that we can all get along, and refusing to recognise the conflict that lies at the heart of contemporary society is allowing yourself to be stitched up by its present rulers.

"Engaging" with those who are out to fuck me over is not what interests me... not unless you mean engage them on the sharp end of a pitchfork, or some such.


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## moon23 (Aug 11, 2008)

Col_Buendia said:


> Moon, you seem to have a fairly generous notion of how "all-inclusive" society is... you seem not to have grasped the nettle that there are elements in society whose interests are fundamentally opposed to the interests of the greater number of that society. Any redistribution of this world's resources in _anything like_ a more just fashion will inevitably generate conflict - it beggars belief that this should need stating. Hence, regardless of however remote that possibility might be, of a just redistribution of our shared resources, in this particular country at this particular time, the simple fact remains that there are people out there who are enjoying themselves enormously _at our expense._
> 
> Calling them class enemies is shorthand. Short, but effective, and accurate. Refusing to have anything to do with them is common sense. Hoping that we can all get along, and refusing to recognise the conflict that lies at the heart of contemporary society is allowing yourself to be stitched up by its present rulers.
> 
> "Engaging" with those who are out to fuck me over is not what interests me... not unless you mean engage them on the sharp end of a pitchfork, or some such.



I'm not saying that people shouldn't be challenged; just that most of the time it's more effective (if less exciting) to challenge people through dialogue and compromise than pitchforks. Of course there will be some people who never listen or learn.

Take for instant you meet a racist. If you shout at them and call them a racist then they will simply hide their real views whilst in public whereas the racist mindset is not actually challenged. We have all been in Taxi’s where the driver is mouthing off. Rather than having a go at them I try and convince them that the answer to crime is to do with a break down in education and society. Perhaps they will leave thinking that better Education rather than punishment is a solution. If you spent time talking to someone and addressing their fears about security and desire to protect themselves and their family then you might actually lead them to a more enlightened understanding. 

For instant I know someone who has stood as UKIP candidate in local elections. I’m able to discuss things with them over a beer then and then overtime persuade them that it’s economic exploitation rather than the European parliament which is the real problem. If I simply told him to get lost then that would only entrench his views. Many of my friends think I’m nuts for even talking to them. 

I think it’s similar with NO2ID, it’s bringing a lot of Tories to a deeper understanding of civil liberties in this country. Rather than condemning NO2ID activists for engaging with the right, you should be praising them for reaching out and taking the arguments out into the wider community.


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 15, 2008)

moon23 said:


> For instant I know someone who has stood as UKIP candidate in local elections. I’m able to discuss things with them over a beer then and then overtime persuade them that it’s economic exploitation rather than the European parliament which is the real problem. If I simply told him to get lost then that would only entrench his views. Many of my friends think I’m nuts for even talking to them.



And what has your conversation achieved with this person? Do you not find that those who are already politically active usually are so as a result of having considered the issues and come to their own conclusions? Therefore they are the least amenable to a general chat about the "state of things". Knee-jerk racists usually (ime) haven't thought about things very much, and therefore are much more vulnerable to a piercing blast of logic.

It'd be interesting to know whether the right-wing activists that you are consorting with are going back to their peer group with stories of the naive anarchists that they have pulled in behind them...


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## moon23 (Aug 15, 2008)

Col_Buendia said:


> And what has your conversation achieved with this person? Do you not find that those who are already politically active usually are so as a result of having considered the issues and come to their own conclusions? Therefore they are the least amenable to a general chat about the "state of things". Knee-jerk racists usually (ime) haven't thought about things very much, and therefore are much more vulnerable to a piercing blast of logic.
> 
> It'd be interesting to know whether the right-wing activists that you are consorting with are going back to their peer group with stories of the naive anarchists that they have pulled in behind them...




It depends on the extent to which they have thought about things and what information they have based their thinking on. Rationale people who are not closed minded, and think about things a little bit are probably more open to a good argument than those whose opinions are not based on anything rationale (but rather received wisdom, or the Daily mail). They have shown an ability to understand some of the more complex nuances involved in a progressive political position. 

 If you want to think in terms of crude psychological types of people, then I agree that there is a proportion of political active people who are closed minded to ideas that don’t fit within their political dogma or truth as they call it. For instant those who the ‘left’ that are so closed minded they won’t have anything to do with the right, instead demonizing them and forgetting they are people with dreams, hopes and fears. Many of whom are products of a system and just want to do what they think. They are not inherently bad. 

It would be interesting to know for sure what this person thought of me. In terms of what has been gained from it, I have a better understanding of what leads people to belong to a party like UKIP. I’m also working with him to put a stop to ID cards.


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## llantwit (Aug 15, 2008)

moon23 said:


> For instant those who the ‘left’ that are so closed minded they won’t have anything to do with the right, instead demonizing them and forgetting they are people with dreams, hopes and fears. ... They are not inherently bad.


This where you're mis-reading the left-critique that Col and I have been putting forward, I think. It's not about 'not having anything to do with the right' as people. I'd be more than happy to go for a pint, chew the fact, even have political debates aplenty with rightists. As the cliche goes, some of my oldest friends are right-wingers.
We aren't about somehow denying they're people, either. Of course they have dreams and hopes and shit like that. They might not even be inherently bad people (but many are).
The point we're making is about certain irriducible structural differences that get in the way of working politically with these people (the ones I called class enemies in quite a strident way earlier in the debate).
In many cases (capitalist bosses, for example) their wealth, for instance, is a direct result of the exploitation of others. They have deeply entrenched interests in not radically changing the way wealth and resources are distributed in society. We aren't saying don't work with these people because they're bad people, or evil, etc. In large part, we're saying don't work with them because our (material, economic, class) interests are diametrically opposed. I'm surprised somebody calling themselves an anarchist hasn't got a grasp of basic class politics like that, to be honest.


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## moon23 (Aug 15, 2008)

llantwit said:


> This where you're mis-reading the left-critique that Col and I have been putting forward, I think. It's not about 'not having anything to do with the right' as people. I'd be more than happy to go for a pint, chew the fact, even have political debates aplenty with rightists. As the cliche goes, some of my oldest friends are right-wingers.
> We aren't about somehow denying they're people, either. Of course they have dreams and hopes and shit like that. They might not even be inherently bad people (but many are).
> The point we're making is about certain irriducible structural differences that get in the way of working politically with these people (the ones I called class enemies in quite a strident way earlier in the debate).
> In many cases (capitalist bosses, for example) their wealth, for instance, is a direct result of the exploitation of others. They have deeply entrenched interests in not radically changing the way wealth and resources are distributed in society. We aren't saying don't work with these people because they're bad people, or evil, etc. In large part, we're saying don't work with them because our (material, economic, class) interests are diametrically opposed. I'm surprised somebody calling themselves an anarchist hasn't got a grasp of basic class politics like that, to be honest.



This is the crux of the matter, I don't think that class politics is the be all and end all of politics. It appears to me that you are seeing things in terms of a dialect between material, economic and class interests, this tends to force people into a dichotomy of class enemies and friends. Although when you stop and think I’m sure you are perfectly aware this is a simplification and life is more complex.

I'm saying yes class (and broadly Marxist economic critique) is an important factor, as material and economic power can be used to exploit and dominate others which go against my principle of furthering individualistic freedom. 

However I  don’t like a narrow reading of what some call classical Marxism and think there are other factors at play (psychological, religious, and ideological), where control and domination can occur (along the lines of the Frankfurt school). For instance within a hierarchy steeped in entrenched cultural practices,  or within a formalized local part system, that although having democratic objectives, by nature of it’s formalized system is open to abuse by those with a knowledge of how the system works. An example of the later may be the way in which the first past the post is manipulated by political parties. 

It is possible to imagine a collectivist anarchist community that although free from class conflict people are oppressed through social pressure or traditions of that community. The totem and taboos, mythologies and symbological systems are partly interlinked yet also distinct from materialistic relationships and conflicts. ID cards for instance are just as much a threat from the authoritarian left as the right and have little to do with materialistic class conflict (hence why a wide variety of people oppose them).

Of course material conflict is often linked to other spheres e.g. religious. For instance I think the ideological reaction of Al-Qaeda has a lot to do with Western material exploitation of the middle-east. However the conflict is realized on a psychological level by many of the protagonists. You therefore need to take into account the different levels on which people operate.

I therefore think it’s perfectly possible to work politically with someone I disagree in terms of class conflict or immigration but share views with on other issues that may not directly be related to class conflict, in the same way in which a boss/worker relationship might be. ID cards are one particular phenomenon that I intend to put a stop to. To that ends I am 100% focused and committed and therefore very pleased that NO2ID has got such a wide base of support. I understand why some people may hate this notion of a single issue campaign, but I think it's a pragmatic and direct way to actually inact change.

As an Anarchist I have little time of camps and party loyalties.


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 15, 2008)

UKIP may involve individuals, but UKIP is a party and has party positions which represent particular class interests - most decidedly not the interests of the working class, and certainly not the ethnic minorities within it.

Why not look at the actual policies UKIP stands for?

  Stopping all immigration for 5 years.  Tripling the numbers deported; 'up to a million'.  Then only allowing people in who amongst other things speak fluent English.
  Scrapping the human rights act.
  Increased spending on the armed forces.
  Defending the exorbitant wages of top executives. 
  Bringing back selective education and grammar schools.
  Cutting corporation tax; scrapping inheritance tax; opposition to green taxes.

In short, UKIP is a party for business, and like the BNP are primarily rooted in the urban and rural small business class - the petit bourgeoisie.  And, as every Marxist and many anarchists know, that class is of necessity parasitical on workers, which it must exploit in order to profit. That is why we regard them as a poison to be defeated at all costs, not sucked up by the unelected leaders of NO2ID who will be attending their conference and handing them a  credibility they do not deserve.


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 16, 2008)

moon23 said:


> It would be interesting to know for sure what this person thought of me. In terms of what has been gained from it, I have a better understanding of what leads people to belong to a party like UKIP. I’m also working with him to put a stop to ID cards.



You've just constructed a circular argument there, moon23. You oppose ID cards, so you're prepared to work with the likes of UKIP. When questioned as to the value of working with UKIP, you state (as above) that you're working together against ID cards. It seems that you're not prepared to cut your argument free of the issue that is somewhat obsessing you atm and take a more considered view of what UKIP (and its like) represent. A view that has been more than ably expounded here by P2K and others.

While life, as you state, is undoubtedly complex (and it always strikes me as an act of condescension when someone states the blindingly obvious like that!), there are some simple truths that lie beneath the heaving, shifting complexity. One of those is that the poor are poor because they've been shafted by the rich. If you're not comfortable with that blindingly obvious fact and choose not to do anything about it, just admit it, rather than try to bury it under a clever-clever postulation of "complexities".


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## moon23 (Aug 18, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> UKIP may involve individuals, but UKIP is a party and has party positions which represent particular class interests - most decidedly not the interests of the working class, and certainly not the ethnic minorities within it.
> 
> Why not look at the actual policies UKIP stands for?
> 
> ...



I'm not going to get into an argument about whether or not UKIP is in the interests of the working classes, based on your cherry picked list of their policies. Sadly although you must fantasize about it you are not the spokesperson for the entire working class, and I suspect if you ran a poll many of the working class would share UKIP's views on immigration.

Regardless of UKIP's views on other things they are against ID cards. I hardly think a NO2ID activist attending their conference gives them that much credibilty. In fact every major party other than Labour are opposed to ID cards, so it hardly sets them out from the pack.

NO2ID opposes ID cards, UKIP oppose ID cards. Simple


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## moon23 (Aug 18, 2008)

Col_Buendia said:


> You've just constructed a circular argument there, moon23. You oppose ID cards, so you're prepared to work with the likes of UKIP. When questioned as to the value of working with UKIP, you state (as above) that you're working together against ID cards. It seems that you're not prepared to cut your argument free of the issue that is somewhat obsessing you atm and take a more considered view of what UKIP (and its like) represent. A view that has been more than ably expounded here by P2K and others.
> 
> While life, as you state, is undoubtedly complex (and it always strikes me as an act of condescension when someone states the blindingly obvious like that!), there are some simple truths that lie beneath the heaving, shifting complexity. One of those is that the poor are poor because they've been shafted by the rich. If you're not comfortable with that blindingly obvious fact and choose not to do anything about it, just admit it, rather than try to bury it under a clever-clever postulation of "complexities".



Sorry if it strikes you as an act of condescension, stating the world is complex. I could only assume that your simplistic black and white analysis of the world was a resulted from a lack of intellect, and that you therefore might need it restated. Perhaps it is also the form of some kind of indoctrination though?


Lets take one of your simple truths for instant:

“One of those is that the poor are poor because they've been shafted by the rich.”

Have you never met anyone who is lazy and unable to take self responsibly for their position, instead blaming society for their self-inflicted poverty? Or someone who has all their wealth robbed by another poor person? Is natural ability and talent also not a factor to wealth?


Yes my argument is circular, because there is no logical reason why a campaign against ID cards would have a position on whether or not X or Y was a class enemy. Your inability to tell the difference between a single issue campaign and your wider political agenda is startling.


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## llantwit (Aug 18, 2008)

moon23 said:


> Have you never met anyone who is lazy and unable to take self responsibly for their position, instead blaming society for their self-inflicted poverty? Or someone who has all their wealth robbed by another poor person? Is natural ability and talent also not a factor to wealth?


Again, when faced with a point based on an understanding of *systemic *injustice you individualise the argument. 
I really suggest you go away and read Marx's Capital (and then read it again, slowly). You need to understand that we're talking about classes and systemic injustice, not bad people and good people, or lazy people and active people, or poor burglars, ffs!


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## penderyn2000 (Aug 18, 2008)

Moon has done a fantastic job of making my case for me.  NO2ID is causing supposed leftists to not only tolerate the right, but defend them.  I find the promise of deporting a million immigrants fucking chilling - don't you?  And if some workers agree with that, so what?  Does Moon not understand that the way of thinking of the capitalist class is the dominant way of thinking in society?  Millions of workers voted for Thatcher - does that mean Thatcher was in their interests? 
Really Moon, you are way out of your depth, and the more you attempt to justify yourself, the more obvious it becomes.  Do yourself a favour, go away and have a good long think about what you've been saying.


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## moon23 (Aug 19, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> Moon has done a fantastic job of making my case for me.  NO2ID is causing supposed leftists to not only tolerate the right, but defend them.  I find the promise of deporting a million immigrants fucking chilling - don't you?  And if some workers agree with that, so what?  Does Moon not understand that the way of thinking of the capitalist class is the dominant way of thinking in society?  Millions of workers voted for Thatcher - does that mean Thatcher was in their interests?
> Really Moon, you are way out of your depth, and the more you attempt to justify yourself, the more obvious it becomes.  Do yourself a favour, go away and have a good long think about what you've been saying.



So let me get this straight, you complain that NO2ID are undemocratic but if people vote for Thatcher then their wishes shouldn't be valued because they are voting in the interests of the capitalist class. Democracy insofar as their views aren’t dismissed as products of false consciousness. 

I do not 'defend' UKIP anymore then I defend socialism. If socalist or people on the right oppose ID cards then I applaude their stance on that one issue.


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## moon23 (Aug 19, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Again, when faced with a point based on an understanding of *systemic *injustice you individualise the argument.
> I really suggest you go away and read Marx's Capital (and then read it again, slowly). You need to understand that we're talking about classes and systemic injustice, not bad people and good people, or lazy people and active people, or poor burglars, ffs!



I'm not saying that we should only analysis things in terms of an individualist reductionist manner. Of course there are wider trends in society, and not all poverty is a result of people's character. It’s a typical ruse to blame individuals for their situation without realizing that there are other factors at play. Yet whoever denies that character is part of the parcel is dismissing a fundamental aspect of human nature. Some people no matter what opportunties are given to them fail to take them.  Of course human nature has been shaped by past systematic trends and the foundations of our consciousness are the product of culture, which these days is largely manufactured. You can give people libraries but they need themselves to choose to pick up a book. Obviously someone without a library hasn’t got the choice. Blaming the capitalist TV producers for dulling minds, kind of misses the point that nothing is stopping people from rising up if they had the strength to do so. 

However a strong individual always has the power to create for themselves to break out of the mould. Capital is an insightful read that helps us to think of society in systematic, and economic terms. Where Marxism fails however is in its inability to realize the power of individual creativity and consciousness to alter events and affect the economic and social organization. The sorts of inner strength that people like Nietzsche & later on existentialist are able to explain.

Maybe I’m less moralistic than you, but I don’t see things in terms of some polarized battle between classes. That’s not to say that I don’t fight to help other individuals achieve what they want. ID cards seek to bind people to states and databases to control and dominate with technology. NO2ID is a fairly successful campaign and has a wider appeal precisely because it is not tied to any other political agenda. Any attempt to tie it to any other agenda is a waste of time. Amusingly  as a reformed socialist who used to sell papers and get shouted at by other less radical socalists i've had people come upto an NO2ID stall and say "Your not part of that lot are you" (whilst pointing at an SWP stall) before signing the petition. 

penderyn2000's little outburst probably just gives NO2ID more credibility to the wider population, who will be pleased to learn it's not associated to a radical fringe. Oh and by the way it’s not NO2ID that is causing people to defend the right, but people like penderyn who gives the so called left a bad name by displaying an uncompromising dogmatic nature.


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## llantwit (Aug 19, 2008)

You are the one giving us a bad name, moon. You're displaying some of the wooliest thinking I've ever come across and, despite your best efforts, abjectly failing to dress it up as an intelligent informed theory of society.
I think we've let this little debate run its course, haven't we? Feel free to take the last word.


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## moon23 (Aug 19, 2008)

llantwit said:


> You are the one giving us a bad name, moon. You're displaying some of the wooliest thinking I've ever come across and, despite your best efforts, abjectly failing to dress it up as an intelligent informed theory of society.
> I think we've let this little debate run its course, haven't we? Feel free to take the last word.



Seeing as your able to only respond with an ad hominem parting shot, it seems it’s come to an end yes.


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