# Sex Porn & Teenagers



## weltweit (Oct 3, 2010)

Monday night at 8pm R4.. 

But in advance of that.. 

Some of the issues include that today for children, top shelf material is just a click of the mouse away. 

So how has this changed the dynamics .. 

What are the implications?


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## gsv (Oct 3, 2010)

The implications?

fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fapp...  

GS(v)


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## Callum91 (Oct 3, 2010)

I don't see what the big fuss is all about. Porn is ace


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## madzone (Oct 3, 2010)

I think it's giving them a pretty twisted view of what sex is actually like.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2010)

gsv said:


> The implications?
> 
> fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fapp...
> 
> GS(v)


 
Also increased domestic violence against young girls when they won't do all the things young boys see in pornos...


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 3, 2010)

Teenage boys have it easy these days.

We had to rely on the benevolance of the porn fairy (who left decaying copies of penthouse under railway bridges) and the lingere section in the freemans catalogue.


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## spacemonkey (Oct 3, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Also increased domestic violence against young girls when they won't do all the things young boys see in pornos...


 
I can't imagine a whole raft of boys suddenly smacking their girlfriends around because they won't let them cum on their faces. 

Nah.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> I can't imagine a whole raft of boys suddenly smacking their girlfriends around because they won't let them cum on their faces.
> 
> Nah.


 
You live in a happier world than the girls that experience it then...


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## weltweit (Oct 3, 2010)

I think there is a risk that kids may grow up too quickly - or too young.


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## METH LAB (Oct 3, 2010)

Callum91 said:


> I don't see what the big fuss is all about. Porn is ace


 
Thats not actually true, the women are mostly abused in some way, the ones that say they like it are just making sure they keep the job as they need food, or worse...

watching porn doesant make you a bad person but at least think about it, how would you feel if it was ya mother or daughter in those things?? They make anal look common place but dont bother telling you about the muscle relaxants and anesthetics they have to use.

porn is a dark industry

And yes domestic abuse is abig part of it... from blokes forcing there women to watch the stuff and copy the images on screen, to then threataning to leave if they wont do it.

peace


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## gsv (Oct 3, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Also increased domestic violence against young girls when they won't do all the things young boys see in pornos...


Is there any evidence for this?

GS(v)


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## METH LAB (Oct 3, 2010)

gsv said:


> Is there any evidence for this?
> 
> GS(v)


 
Loads! Im quite tight with my P.O. and the things ive learned.... domestics are common place and porn is often involed.

peace


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## Callum91 (Oct 3, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Thats not actually true, the women are mostly abused in some way, the ones that say they like it are just making sure they keep the job as they need food, or worse...
> 
> watching porn doesant make you a bad person but at least think about it, how would you feel if it was ya mother or daughter in those things?? They make anal look common place but dont bother telling you about the muscle relaxants and anesthetics they have to use.
> 
> ...


 
I watch amateur porn. Both parties seem to be enjoying themselves quite alot.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2010)

Callum91 said:


> I watch amateur porn. Both parties seem to be enjoying themselves quite alot.



...or free range porn, as I like to call it. 

Most professional porn features people that look like identical looking plastic dolls, with all humanity removed. 

The idea that teenagers necessarily are conditioned to become abusers by the exposure to porn strikes me as a tad hysterical, but it might give them some unrealistic ideas about body image, which may lead to wrong expectations and insecurities.


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## METH LAB (Oct 3, 2010)

Callum91 said:


> I watch amateur porn. Both parties seem to be enjoying themselves quite alot.


 
Amateur porn is away from the porn industry isnt it? Thus making it differant? i dunno.

btw anybody can 'seem' to enjoy themselves when moneys involved... or herion if thats what they get paid in, you would probably be surprised at how many 'sex workers' (read as 'slaves') are in legit OTC pron dvd's and legal internet sites... half of 'em dont even know what country there in and get paid in smack.

peace


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 3, 2010)

manga porn

the only person abused is the artist...


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Thats not actually true, the women are mostly abused in some way, the ones that say they like it are just making sure they keep the job as they need food, or worse...


If that's true* then frankly it's the fault of moral-majority types who stigmatise the porn industry, therefore make it the preserve of those who don't care about their reputation anyway. Just like what happens when yuo make booze or drugs illegal.

* I'm sure it's the case for some performer/producer relationships. I'd be surprised if it were more than a minority.

GS(v)


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## Santino (Oct 4, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> I can't imagine a whole raft of boys suddenly smacking their girlfriends around because they won't let them cum on their faces.
> 
> Nah.


 
Who needs empirical research when you've got 'imagining' on your side?


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

No-one's produced any empirical research on this thread. Just opinion and assertion, backed up by absoutely nothing. Unless you're actually going to raise the bar, spacemonkey's view is as well-founded as anyone else's - and more reasonable IMO than some.

GS(v)


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

if someone smacks someone else around  because  they won't do something done in a porno  i wouldn't blame the porno i'd blame  the  violent fucktard who did the smacking around


surly  the violence would just be over some other misgiving if porn was removed form the equation


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 4, 2010)

Callum91 said:


> I watch amateur porn. Both parties seem to be enjoying themselves quite alot.


 
They do . I know loads of people who work in porn and they love what they do.


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 4, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Thats not actually true, the women are mostly abused in some way, the ones that say they like it are just making sure they keep the job as they need food, or worse...


  where are you getting this from? Most porn stars are exhibtionists who are proud of their bodies and shrewd enough to make a bit of money out of this.


http://www.wendymcelroy.com/xxx/preface.htm


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

I wonder how many of the negative opinions expressed here relate only to "mainstream" porn and sex work aimed at male heterosexual viewers, and the extent it might or might not relate to other forms eg:

gay porn
lesbian porn
women-led porn
dominant sex workers
porn as a conscious critique of dominant male and female sexuality etc

GS(v)


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## Coffee (Oct 4, 2010)

A friend at work was invited to see the inner workings of the porn industry when a mate of hers suggested it was a good way to make a few extra quid. She said the girls were constantly shouting out for lube, which they seldom got, and in areas it was starting to look like rape. Needless to say she never stared in one. Or so she says. X


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 4, 2010)

gsv said:


> I wonder how many of the negative opinions expressed here relate only to "mainstream" porn and sex work aimed at male heterosexual viewers,
> 
> GS(v)


 
The industry is changing in that regard anyway. Loads more women are watching and making porn these days Mainly due to the internet allowing women to have access to porn that in the past would only have been available  in sex shops which were very much the domain of the dirty mac brigade


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> http://www.wendymcelroy.com/xxx/preface.htm


What a cool link mate!

GS(v)


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

Coffee said:


> A friend at work was invited to see the inner workings of the porn industry when a mate of hers suggested it was a good way to make a few extra quid. She said the girls were constantly shouting out for lube, which they seldom got, and in areas it was starting to look like rape. Needless to say she never stared in one. Or so she says. X


Between them, your friend's experience and the academic work linked to by dynamicbaddog suggest that there is _a broad range of behaviours, norms and experiences in th the porn industry_.

This should not come as a surprise - there are good and bad employers in hospitality, the restaurant trade, the professions, white-collar roles, blue-collar roles, the military etc etc etc. Why porn should be any different is a mystery to me.

GS(v)


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## Coffee (Oct 4, 2010)

Fair comment. X


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## Gromit (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> I think it's giving them a pretty twisted view of what sex is actually like.


 
Thats because you are quite vanilla when it comes to sex.

Which came first the chicken or the egg when it comes to sexual diversity?

BDSM, Fetishes, kinks etc. etc. were around long before easy access to porn. Plenty of people today have developed such preferences without ever seeing porn when they were young.

So I don't think we can blame porn for non vannilla sex. People themselves are to blame which has in turn created demand for it in porn.


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

Gromit said:


> BDSM, Fetishes, kinks etc. etc. were around long before easy access to porn. Plenty of people today have developed such preferences without ever seeing porn when they were young.


Yeah but loads of us had access to Servalan 





Swoon! 

GS(v)


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

so the bbc  are responsible  for modern porn?


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## Gromit (Oct 4, 2010)

gsv said:


> I wonder how many of the negative opinions expressed here relate only to "mainstream" porn and sex work aimed at male heterosexual viewers, and the extent it might or might not relate to other forms eg:
> 
> gay porn
> lesbian porn
> ...


 
Good point. But also consider than certain porn that some feminists would consider mysoginistically catering for men also meets the needs of submissive women.

I've used to consider spunk to face shots horrible and demeaning and purely for enjoyment of wierd blokes. So imagine my surprise hearing from submissive women that they like it? 

Its a wierd and diverse world out there. There is no easy yardstick for sexuality and whats right or wrong in mainstream porn.


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

Good point, well made Gromit.

Actually I'm still waiting for some/one/any of the antis to cite some evidence - something I'd have thought crucial since they mean to impair porn-lovers' freedoms. On the other hand, if porno really does increase male-on-female domestic violence, that's something that needs to be taken very seriously indeed. Though not necessarily with the measures that they might assume.

GS(v)


bs - that's one big-ass edit from me! well the original post was properly inadequate...


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

to quote the rules of the internet

No matter what it is it is someone's fetish. No Exceptions.


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

I suggest you listen to teh programme before you jump to any anti-pr0n conclusions. I think it's a lot more complex than that.


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## METH LAB (Oct 4, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> where are you getting this from? Most porn stars are exhibtionists who are proud of their bodies and shrewd enough to make a bit of money out of this.
> 
> 
> http://www.wendymcelroy.com/xxx/preface.htm


 
Im getting this from my probation officer who works with sex workers who have been abused beyond belief. Foriegn workers who are shipped from place to place to star in legal vids but dont know where they are and get paid in herion... its common. It surprised me to, f*ckin eye-opener like. Alot of female porn stars are failed gllamer models who then got pushed into porn as the only way to pay for this and that... and then got pushed into doing more serious porn for the same reason. Drugs will always help peple be able to detach from things... porn is basically prostituation, thats never a good thing. Im not much interested in how documenteries (like sexetera etc..) drss it up and make it seem ok, thats the industry trying to justify itself.

peace


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Gromit said:


> Thats because you are quite vanilla when it comes to sex.
> 
> Which came first the chicken or the egg when it comes to sexual diversity?
> 
> ...


 
You talking about how I like sex makes me feel sick tbh 

I'm the mother of teenage boys and I hope to fuck that they don't think that the majority of porn available on the internet  is some kind of 'norm' for their sakes as well as the women who they end up having sex with.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

the activities partaken or the  relationships  depicted?

if it's the activities  i would have thought  there is nothing wrong with any of them...  (consenting adults yadda yadda yadda)

if it's  relationships  well then yes i understand your problems with porn

this is why i like my porn fictional  in fact most of my prefered stuff is half romance half comedy   with sex scenes added 
live action stuff just  feels  off


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## Gromit (Oct 4, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> where are you getting this from? Most porn stars are exhibtionists who are proud of their bodies and shrewd enough to make a bit of money out of this.
> 
> 
> http://www.wendymcelroy.com/xxx/preface.htm



Only just got around to reading link. 



> In doing so, I adopted the strategy of dealing specifically with hard-core porn-the XXX variety. If the women who made bondage videos were not mistreated, then the women involved in soft-core productions were not likely to be victims of violence either.


 
Not sure that I agree with the logic of this bit. 

The competition in one market of porn can lead to different business practices to another. So making an assumption that artists in bondage bids are treated the same as the wider mainstream market is a nonsense.


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## Gromit (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> You talking about how I like sex makes me feel sick tbh


 
Its hardly a secret as you've documented your attitudes towards sex quite regularly in threads where sex is the main topic of discussion.

Those attitudes quite clearly have a bearing on your viewpoint on this topic.

I'm not using it against you (you've every right to feel about sex the way you do) but more pointing out how its coloured your opinion in this matter. Then pointing out how other people's attitudes to sex colours their view of the product on offer.

To put it in a anaolgy. Just cause I think Marmite is disgusting should no one be allowed marmite? Or should I acknowledge that others like this sick and disgusting substance* and should be allowed to enjoy it... so long as no one was harmed in its production.



* It really is sick and disgusting.



p.s. If I was really nasty I would remind you of something that REALLY would upset you. But I'm not mean (honest I'm not despite my trolling) and so won't.


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 4, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Im getting this from my probation officer who works with sex workers who have been abused beyond belief.


 But have you spoken to any sex workers themselves? And if so what have they told you about porn?


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## girasol (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> I think it's giving them a pretty twisted view of what sex is actually like.


 
Yes, I worry about that.  I met a couple of guys who watched too much porn and sex with them was crap.  They thought they were performing and expecting me to perform.  It was all twisted. Not sure what to do with my son...  We blocked sites, etc, but he'll still get exposed to way more than he should be.


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Im getting this from my probation officer who works with sex workers who have been abused beyond belief. Foriegn workers who are shipped from place to place to star in legal vids but dont know where they are and get paid in herion... its common. It surprised me to, f*ckin eye-opener like. Alot of female porn stars are failed gllamer models who then got pushed into porn as the only way to pay for this and that... and then got pushed into doing more serious porn for the same reason. Drugs will always help peple be able to detach from things... porn is basically prostituation, thats never a good thing. Im not much interested in how documenteries (like sexetera etc..) drss it up and make it seem ok, thats the industry trying to justify itself.
> 
> peace


You're getting this from your parole officer? So by definition it's a self-selecting group who are easy to manipulate by the dregs of society because they're already here illegally, then have come to your PO's attention because they've become involved in further illegallity.

That indicates nothing about the porn industry as a whole. It's like concluding that the majority of _people_ are criminals because that's who your PO meets in his professional life.

btw isn't it "Remand Officer" in the UK?

GS(v)


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

And METH LAB your twin assertions that "porn is basically prostituation, thats never a good thing" sit on top of so much presumption (and IMO inaccurate prejudice) that the only way to take them seriously would be to unpack them in their own thread.

GS(v)


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Also increased domestic violence against young girls when they won't do all the things young boys see in pornos...


 
How does that follow from porn? The porn might create unrealistic expectations, but why would it increase the likelihood that young males will therefore beat up their girlfriends, when the expectations aren't met?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> They make anal look common place but dont bother telling you about the muscle relaxants and anesthetics they have to use.


 
Have you ever participated in anal sex? Were muscle relaxants and anesthetics involved?

Are muscle relaxants and anesthetics involved in gay porn? Btw, who is the abused party in gay porn?


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

gsv said:


> You're getting this from your parole officer? So by definition it's a self-selecting group who are easy to manipulate by the dregs of society because they're already here illegally, then have come to your PO's attention because they've become involved in further illegallity.
> 
> That indicates nothing about the porn industry as a whole. It's like concluding that the majority of _people_ are criminals because that's who your PO meets in his professional life.
> 
> ...


 
He said probation oficer.


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## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

What is a shagband?


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

weltweit said:


> What is a shagband?


 
Why don't you listen to the fucking programme, given you posted the thread?


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## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Why don't you listen to the fucking programme, given you posted the thread?


 
 no need for all that - I am listenning to the program !!


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> He said probation oficer.


My wrong.

GS(v)


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

weltweit said:


> no need for all that - I am listenning to the program !!


 
Well then you would know wouldn't you?  it's been discussed enough


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## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Well then you would know wouldn't you?  it's been discussed enough


 
I do know now, thanks!


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

weltweit said:


> I do know now, thanks!


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

I wonder how you'd feel if it were your teenage children who were using bases one-five where five is anal sex? Or videos of your daughters fucking were being passed around the playground?

Young people are exposed to really hardcore porn now and we can't view it through our prism because it wasn't like that when we were teenagers.


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

Well that was almost entirely innocuous. Obviously apart from local distro of school shagging, which has obvious serious issues (cf Tyler Clementi).

GS(v)


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## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

My kid's school bans mobiles from school grounds. 

Some kids still seem to have them but they only take them out when they leave school. 

The head said, one reason was to stop things like happy slapping.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

if they are having sex... does it really make a difference if anal is included?


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## machine cat (Oct 4, 2010)

Kaka Tim said:


> Teenage boys have it easy these days.
> 
> We had to rely on the benevolance of the porn fairy (who left decaying copies of penthouse under railway bridges) and the lingere section in the freemans catalogue.


 
When I left home at 18 and had to get rid of my collection in case my parents found it while I was away I became the porn fairy.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I wonder how you'd feel if it were your teenage children who were using bases one-five where five is anal sex? .


 
Have you ever had anal sex? You're also somebody's child.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

damn.,.. my only porn fairly was greenguy...


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I wonder how you'd feel if it were your teenage children who were using bases one-five where five is anal sex? Or videos of your daughters fucking were being passed around the playground?
> 
> Young people are exposed to really hardcore porn now and we can't view it through our prism because it wasn't like that when we were teenagers.



I don't think kids are any more filthy-minded now than when we were young. I think it comes with the territory.


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## Reno (Oct 4, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> if they are having sex... does it really make a difference if anal is included?




It carries a higher risk of HIV infection if no condom is used.


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> if they are having sex... does it really make a difference if anal is included?


 
Or if it's 'expected'.


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't think kids are any more filthy-minded now than when we were young. I think it comes with the territory.


 
It's nothing to do with being filthy minded, it's to do with expectation.


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> if they are having sex... does it really make a difference if anal is included?


 
It's more likely to lead to infection. And anal sex isn't like it looks in porn films and that's scary (have you ever had a cock shoved up your arse with little warning? It's really not very nice). Children are using porn as their basis for what is 'normal' sexuality. And it isn't normal. They are not having any time or space to develop their own understanding of what their sexuality is, it's entirely being defined by porn.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

Reno said:


> It carries a higher risk of HIV infection.



again if they are having unprotected sex   then there is a larger issue  to focus on


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> It's more likely to lead to infection. And anal sex isn't like it looks in porn films and that's scary (have you ever had a cock shoved up your arse with little warning? It's really not very nice). Children are using porn as their basis for what is 'normal' sexuality. And it isn't normal. They are not having any time or space to develop their own understanding of what their sexuality is, it's entirely being defined by porn.


 
Exactly.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> It's nothing to do with being filthy minded, it's to do with expectation.



I think the first porn I ever saw was on those 8mm film strips [yes, I'm that old ]. It had guys coming on women's faces. It had anal sex. The next stuff was Devil In Miss Jones, Deep Throat, etc. Same thing.


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> again if they are having unprotected sex   then there is a larger issue  to focus on



Have you ever seen anyone wearing a condom in porn?


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## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think the first porn I ever saw was on those 8mm film strips [yes, I'm that old ]. It had guys coming on women's faces. It had anal sex. The next stuff was Devil In Miss Jones, Deep Throat, etc. Same thing.


 
And how old were you then?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

I think there is a difference between modern porn and old, 70s and even 80s porn. The people back then looked regular. They had hair on their bodies, and they didn't all look like they used steroids or worked out at the gym for 6 hours per day. Also, there was an element of - eroticism? - that seems to be lacking in a lot of modern porn. Porn back then was marginal, a little subversive even. Now it's become big business. It's become battery farming, McD, etc. It has awards shows on tv.

Porn has become like everything else is becoming: all about refining and streamlining in a way to milk the most profit possible from it.

If it is creating false expectations etc in kids, then it's just following the pattern that many things in life are taking.


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## Reno (Oct 4, 2010)

Growing up in the 70s, the closest I got to porn were the underwear models in my mums mail order catalogue.


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Children are using porn as their basis for what is 'normal' sexuality. And it isn't normal. They are not having any time or space to develop their own understanding of what their sexuality is, it's entirely being defined by porn.


Guess what hasn't changed in the 20 years since I was that age. We didn't particularly think it was normal then and there wasn't any indication that they thibnk it is now.

If we don't want youngsters to get their sexual material from where-they-will, society will have to provide them with something that it sees fit.

GS(v)


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

weltweit said:


> And how old were you then?


 
Teenager.


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think the first porn I ever saw was on those 8mm film strips [yes, I'm that old ]. It had guys coming on women's faces. It had anal sex. The next stuff was Devil In Miss Jones, Deep Throat, etc. Same thing.


 
Well, I'm 45 and have slept with an embarrasingly large number of men. None of them have ever come on my face or asked me to take it up the arse ( I did it once because I had a period and the bloke didn't fancy getting blood on him) I didn't like it but thankfully no-one has wanted to since. All of them have had widely varying sexual styles and likes but I've yet to meet anyone who has the sexual proclivities that are discussed on here as being commonplace.


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Have you ever seen anyone wearing a condom in porn?


Yeah it's _really_ common.

GS(v)


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## Reno (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Have you ever seen anyone wearing a condom in porn?



At least in gay porn there is a large number of "ethical" porn companies that insist on condoms always being used. That's not just to protect performers, but also to set an example.


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

gsv said:


> Guess what hasn't changed in the 20 years since I was that age. We didn't particularly think it was normal then and there wasn't any indication that they thibnk it is now.
> 
> If we don't want youngsters to get their sexual material from where-they-will, society will have to provide them with something that it sees fit.
> 
> GS(v)



Did you listen to the programme? That wasn't the conclusion I think they came to. Have you heard of gang rape as an initiation into teenage gangs? Things aren't like they were when we were young. Girls are practising a form of dissociation to be included among the cool kids. How many girls did you fuck up the arse as a 14 year old? Not many I bet.


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## southside (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> It's more likely to lead to infection. And anal sex isn't like it looks in porn films and that's scary (have you ever had a cock shoved up your arse with little warning? It's really not very nice). Children are using porn as their basis for what is 'normal' sexuality. And it isn't normal. They are not having any time or space to develop their own understanding of what their sexuality is, it's entirely being defined by porn.


 
Get Real

You think that kids who have access to the internet at home are not being protected by their irresponsible parents through security tools that are easily available.  My router is setup to block sites like that and I have set up security policies on the LAN to stop anything like that being accessible through my kids accounts and I think responsible parenting is another thread tho isn't it Trashpony.  There will be shit parents who have no clue about such things but most I am sure would have firewalls that block all the bad stuff.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, I'm 45 and have slept with an embarrasingly large number of men. None of them have ever come on my face or asked me to take it up the arse ( I did it once because I had a period and the bloke didn't fancy getting blood on him) I didn't like it but thankfully no-one has wanted to since. All of them have had widely varying sexual styles and likes but I've yet to meet anyone who has the sexual proclivities that are discussed on here as being commonplace.


 
That's my point exactly. It's a safe bet that most if not all of those men have viewed porn with all the 'unusual' activities in it; but when it comes right down to real live performance, they aren't demanding a facial money shot when they have sex.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Did you listen to the programme? That wasn't the conclusion I think they came to. Have you heard of gang rape as an initiation into teenage gangs? .


 
There are also gangs where the entry ticket is to commit a murder. That wasn't common when I was a kid either.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 4, 2010)

i think  that  if people  can't tell the diffrence between porn and sex  there is  a bit of a problem

i mean as a young teenafger i had the internet  which means  i saw EVERYTHING  but  i always took it in the same way as i take film tv of games   as fictional

admitedly  it probably did lead me to indulge in stuff like anal sex  but  that was in a nice   safe enviroment with someone i like  who in turn liked the experiance... 

teenagers with a fucked up attitude towards other people  isn't  because of porn     blaming porn is the easy way out


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## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's my point exactly. It's a safe bet that most if not all of those men have viewed porn with all the 'unusual' activities in it; but when it comes right down to real live performance, they aren't demanding a facial money shot when they have sex.


 
The porn you describe doesn't sound that representative of its time tbh.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> It's more likely to lead to infection. And anal sex isn't like it looks in porn films and that's scary (have you ever had a cock shoved up your arse with little warning? It's really not very nice). Children are using porn as their basis for what is 'normal' sexuality. And it isn't normal. They are not having any time or space to develop their own understanding of what their sexuality is, it's entirely being defined by porn.




good post


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> The porn you describe doesn't sound that representative of its time tbh.



You mean facial shots or anal sex?


----------



## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

southside said:


> Get Real
> 
> You think that kids who have access to the internet at home are not being protected by their irresponsible parents through security tools that are easily available.  My router is setup to block sites like that and I have set up security policies on the LAN to stop anything like that being accessible through my kids accounts and I think responsible parenting is another thread tho isn't it Trashpony.  There will be shit parents who have no clue about such things but most I am sure would have firewalls that block all the bad stuff.



You can have as many firewalls as you want southside but you're bloody naive if you think that protects your children from accessing hardcore porn. Are you sure their phones have the same firewalls? How about the phones of their friends? Or their friends' computers? Or their friends' parents' computers? 

I am not talking about irresponsible parenting - that's a side issue. We need to educate our children on what's really out there, not what we'd like them to access.


----------



## southside (Oct 4, 2010)

Wack it up dry is what I say.

Women get exploited in porn.

The End


----------



## Reno (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> The porn you describe doesn't sound that representative of its time tbh.


 

Facials and anal was pretty common in 70s porn.


----------



## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You mean facial shots or anal sex?


 
Both. Of course there would be specialist stuff about but it wasn't the norm. Porn now is extremely formulaic. It _always _has anal sex and it _always _has blokes coming on the woman's face. Dull as fuck apart from anything else but if kids are growing up thinking that's what normal sex is like then I can't see it being a good thing.


----------



## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Reno said:


> Facials and anal was pretty common in 70s porn.


 
Not in any of the stuff I saw.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 4, 2010)

The kids on the programme sounded fairly smart about it, TBH - they seemed to have a good idea of what was realistic and what wasn't.

I think my view on teenagers and porn is similar to what I think about da yoof and violent films/games - they're not likely to be a problem for most kids, who have enough other interests, positive relationships etc not to have their heads turned by it. But, in the case of porn, if they've not had much experience of viewing healthy relationships (for example, they have a mother who's endured a succession of abusive relationships), they don't have many interests or outlets for their enjoyment that don't involve violence, then, yes, porn could contribute towards unhealthy, abusive attitudes to sex and relationships. But most kids can see the difference between it and real life.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> Both. Of course there would be specialist stuff about but it wasn't the norm. Porn now is extremely formulaic. It _always _has anal sex and it _always _has blokes coming on the woman's face. Dull as fuck apart from anything else but if kids are growing up thinking that's what normal sex is like then I can't see it being a good thing.


 
To my recollection, both were quite common. I can recall our surprise as young guys, when these porn actors would pull out and come on a woman's face. It seemed so ridiculous and artificial.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

southside said:


> Get Real
> 
> You think that kids who have access to the internet at home are not being protected by their irresponsible parents through security tools that are easily available.  My router is setup to block sites like that and I have set up security policies on the LAN to stop anything like that being accessible through my kids accounts and I think responsible parenting is another thread tho isn't it Trashpony.  There will be shit parents who have no clue about such things but most I am sure would have firewalls that block all the bad stuff.


 
Well I have a problem with that, I am not exactly computer illiterate but my 12 year old already knows about the history button so it is one step more to learn how to delete history and then where will I be trying to find out where he has been. 

Plus conveniently I believe in IE8 there is an option to browse without leaving a trace, what can I do then to police what my kid gets up to online?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

The reasoning for the facial, apparently, was to prove that the sex was 'real', as in, proof that intercourse took place to orgasm. And I think that idea was hatched by some fat old porn mogul, a long long time ago.


----------



## madzone (Oct 4, 2010)

Also, I've been called 'vanilla' in this thread like it's some kind of problem. There's a prevailing attitude on Urban that if you don't like cock being shoved up your arse or swallowing cum that there's somehow something amiss with you. Fucking bizarre and somewhat sad IMO.


----------



## southside (Oct 4, 2010)

weltweit said:


> Well I have a problem with that, I am not exactly computer illiterate but my 12 year old already knows about the history button so it is one step more to learn how to delete history and then where will I be trying to find out where he has been.
> 
> Plus conveniently I believe in IE8 there is an option to browse without leaving a trace, what can I do then to police what my kid gets up to online?


 uy some software that after a few clicks you get a secure safe environment for your kid to surf the web. 
B


----------



## Cloo (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> We need to educate our children on what's really out there, not what we'd like them to access.


 Yeah, I think this is a good point, and for me it's a point with a lot of the things people worry about kids being 'exposed' to - the importance of parental mediation.

Not banning, not preventing, not 'keeping them innocent' - but parents being involved enough and communicating enough to mediate between their kids and the tide of stuff that you'd rather they didn't see, but that you need to pretty much accept they will see. A lot of the time, kids think they're mature because they've seen it all, when really they don't understand or are possibly confused and frightened to some extent and I think parents should be there to put things into context, if at all possible.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

I think the technological issue *southside* is, can you be sure you can stay one step ahead of a computer literate kid? 

And perhaps a better question, what proportion of parents do you think could?


----------



## southside (Oct 4, 2010)

weltweit said:


> Well I have a problem with that, I am not exactly computer illiterate but my 12 year old already knows about the history button so it is one step more to learn how to delete history and then where will I be trying to find out where he has been.
> 
> Plus conveniently I believe in IE8 there is an option to browse without leaving a trace, what can I do then to police what my kid gets up to online?



You can buy some software to do it all for you.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

Cloo said:


> The kids on the programme sounded fairly smart about it, TBH - they seemed to have a good idea of what was realistic and what wasn't.
> 
> I think my view on teenagers and porn is similar to what I think about da yoof and violent films/games - they're not likely to be a problem for most kids, who have enough other interests, positive relationships etc not to have their heads turned by it. But, in the case of porn, if they've not had much experience of viewing healthy relationships (for example, they have a mother who's endured a succession of abusive relationships), they don't have many interests or outlets for their enjoyment that don't involve violence, then, yes, porn could contribute towards unhealthy, abusive attitudes to sex and relationships. But most kids can see the difference between it and real life.


 
I'm not entirely sure that's true. You're putting familial values above peer pressure and when I was a teenager, peer pressure won out every time. No matter how 'nice' the family the kid came from. I don't think any of us can assume our children will be immune.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

southside said:


> You can buy some software to do it all for you.


 
But kids in the program were being exposed to porn images via facebook!


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The reasoning for the facial, apparently, was to prove that the sex was 'real', as in, proof that intercourse took place to orgasm. And I think that idea was hatched by some fat old porn mogul, a long long time ago.


 
another reason, is that the porn stars themselves prefer it.  An on the body cum shot is   safer than the man ejaculating  inside her/him(even if he is wearing a condom)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I'm not entirely sure that's true. You're putting familial values above peer pressure and when I was a teenager, peer pressure won out every time. No matter how 'nice' the family the kid came from. I don't think any of us can assume our children will be immune.


 
Given the surge of hormones that happens after puberty, I'm not sure that many kids would want to be immune. There was lots of teenage pregnancy etc, before the advent of the computer.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> another reason, is that the porn stars themselves prefer it.  An on the body cum shot is   safer than the man ejaculating  inside her/him(even if he is wearing a condom)


 
Safer in what way?


----------



## Edie (Oct 4, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, I'm 45 and have slept with an embarrasingly large number of men. None of them have ever come on my face or asked me to take it up the arse ( I did it once because I had a period and the bloke didn't fancy getting blood on him) I didn't like it but thankfully no-one has wanted to since. All of them have had widely varying sexual styles and likes but I've yet to meet anyone who has the sexual proclivities that are discussed on here as being commonplace.


Without spelling it out, I can say that my experience has been the exact opposite. Mind you, I'm not complaining cos I like dirty sex 

It's strange to have such a different experience though. Or maybe not, dunno.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 4, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Safer in what way?


 
less risk of STDs

http://jezebel.com/5586957/legendary-porn-star-defends-bareback-sex-and-shaved-vulvas

_ She said that the length of on-camera sex scenes — and male performers' members — make widespread condom use impractical: "by the time you've had 30 to 90 minutes of condom friction on your tender bits, there is abrasion, there is soreness, sometimes there's a little swelling, it's tender, it's not comfortable." And she argued that the industry standard — a combination of universal testing and external ejaculation — is better for performers' health anyway
_


----------



## Cloo (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I'm not entirely sure that's true. You're putting familial values above peer pressure and when I was a teenager, peer pressure won out every time. No matter how 'nice' the family the kid came from. I don't think any of us can assume our children will be immune.


 
I'm not talking about parents being able to stop kids having sex - of course there are hormones, peer pressure etc. But I believe it can go a long way to prevent kids engaging in especially exploitative, unhealthy relationships and sexual activity, and that most kids will avoid the worst of it.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 4, 2010)

DP


----------



## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Did you listen to the programme? That wasn't the conclusion I think they came to.


I don't think it was. I don't get _all_ my opinions from Radio 4 



trashpony said:


> Have you heard of gang rape as an initiation into teenage gangs? Things aren't like they were when we were young.


Did they discuss it on the programme? No.
Did they suggest it's related to porn? No.
Do I believe it's common? No.
Do you have particular reason to believe that it's either common or related to porn?



trashpony said:


> DidHow many girls did you fuck up the arse as a 14 year old? Not many I bet.


I didn't fuck any girls up the anything when I was 14! I was bloody lucky to get a snog! I'm sure there was a little bit of it about (vaginal at least)...and I bet that hasn't changed much either. A lot of teenage braggadocio does not add up to a ton of anal sex.

Trashpony, there's apocryphal elephants of a lot of disturbing things. Some of it is true. Not much of it is commonplace. For all either of us knows, _none_ of is is connected to internet porn.

GS(v)


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> less risk of STDs
> 
> http://jezebel.com/5586957/legendary-porn-star-defends-bareback-sex-and-shaved-vulvas
> 
> ...


 
That's interesting; although it sort of flies in the face of a lot of sex education.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 4, 2010)

*God, we're sitting on opposite sides of the room, posting on the same thread*


----------



## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

Cloo said:


> DP


Fnar! 

GS(v)


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## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

Cloo said:


> *God, we're sitting on opposite sides of the room, posting on the same thread*


Only if you're really lucky dear!

GS(v)


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## trashpony (Oct 4, 2010)

gsv/cloo (as you appear to be posting as one ): 

I know that gang rape wasn't discussed in the programme but it is a very real issue for girls in London. And even if you live where you do, there is increasing pressure on young girls to engage in sexual activity that they may not feel that comfortable with. I think it's something worth thinking about and if you think that overexposure to porn at a young age doesn't impact children's perception of what is 'normal' then you are going against pretty much every study on the subject that I've read. If you have any sources to cite that it is absolutely harmless and has no effect whatsoever on burgeoning sexuality, please share them because this is a subject I'm very interested in (as you can probably tell).


----------



## weltweit (Oct 4, 2010)

Well I am concerned that hard core porn is now just a click away for youngsters and teenagers. 

I don't think the majority of parents know how to police internet usage, and anyhow people are being exposed to it on facebook. No parental filter is going to keep kids away from it I fear.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 4, 2010)

On the gang rape issue, I remember first hearing about it happening a lot in some areas the best part of 10 years ago - and being very upset about it, as it's so wrong on so many levels. The kids involved would not have had internet access and video phones at that time, so while it's a deeply depressing phenomenon, I don't suspect it's been popularised by the internet necessarily.

I'm not making any claim that there is scientific proof that it does no harm - as I said, it's my view. I think it comes from what I've read on childhood resilience factors, it comes from having been a tomboy and having played seriously violent action games with my mates and none of us having turned out as violent nutters (as far as I know  ) and from having a very strong belief that, providing all else is good in terms of relationships, lifestyle, etc, 'deviant' influences, such as porn or violence, are eminently resistable. As I said, I'm not claiming there's any proof to it, but that's my belief from what (probably pretty limited stuff) I know.


----------



## gsv (Oct 4, 2010)

trashpony said:


> there is increasing pressure on young girls to engage in sexual activity that they may not feel that comfortable with


I think society eagerly approves of far bigger issues in the early sexualisation of young girls than internet porn.
























GS(v)


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2010)

They had this doll for little girls, back in the sixties:


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## joustmaster (Oct 5, 2010)

like with drugs, porn is there and its not going to go away. Just telling the kids not to look at it and sticking up a load of firewalls at home is akin to throwing a thimble of water at a towering inferno. Within minutes, they will be able to view a video of a man picking smashed glass out of his arse, or a woman strangled unconscious whilst being fucked by three men.

The only sensible thing to do is to educate. To explore all the thoughts and opinions people have. Kind of like harm reduction. This needs doing at an early age.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Have you ever participated in anal sex? Were muscle relaxants and anesthetics involved?
> 
> Are muscle relaxants and anesthetics involved in gay porn? Btw, who is the abused party in gay porn?



No i havant, but they are used (off camara when nobodys looking mostly)

They are both potentially abused, although the abuse is more to do with women than men by far.

peace


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## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

gsv said:


> You're getting this from your parole officer? So by definition it's a self-selecting group who are easy to manipulate by the dregs of society because they're already here illegally, then have come to your PO's attention because they've become involved in further illegallity.
> 
> That indicates nothing about the porn industry as a whole. It's like concluding that the majority of _people_ are criminals because that's who your PO meets in his professional life.
> 
> ...



They come to the attention of probation coz they are victims and want to get out! There's more to probation than keeping an eye on dodgy crims, they help victims aswell.

OR they have been forced into illegal prostitution through there porn contacts. They could be doing both films and prostitution and have little idea of the law untill the police raid the illegal brothel.

No it isnt remand officer, its probation officer.

peace


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

edit: too dumb.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> They are both potentially abused, although the abuse is more to do with women than men by far.
> 
> peace


 
Why is that? Are the men better able to understand and consent to what's going on than the women are?


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Why is that? Are the men better able to understand and consent to what's going on than the women are?


 
I suppose that was  what methlab   was getting at ,which is (in my opinion)  is a  patronising assumption about women who work in the industry. (based on second hand 'information' that his prohibition officer has told him)


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 5, 2010)

joustmaster said:


> like with drugs, porn is there and its not going to go away. Just telling the kids not to look at it and sticking up a load of firewalls at home is akin to throwing a thimble of water at a towering inferno. Within minutes, they will be able to view *a video of a man picking smashed glass out of his arse, or a woman strangled unconscious whilst being fucked by three men.
> *
> .


bloody hell
 what sort of porn are you watching?! Im a total porn fiend, I watch porn all the time, in fact I have free access to one of the largest video on demand porn sites in Europe because a mate of mine owns it,  and  thankfully have  never seen anything remotely close to what you've described there. 
Or maybe you don't watch porn at all and just have  a very dark and vivid imagination. like many of the anti porn mob do


----------



## joustmaster (Oct 5, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> bloody hell
> what sort of porn are you watching?! Im a total porn fiend, I watch porn all the time, in fact I have free access to one of the largest video on demand   porn sites in Europe because a mate of mine  owns it, and I have never, thankfully never seen anything remotely close to what you've described there.
> Or maybe you don't watch porn at all and just have  a very dark and vivid imagination. like many of the anti porn mob do


i actually saw one of those videos on a site that has been linked to from this forum a few times


----------



## gsv (Oct 5, 2010)

joustmaster, One Man One Jar is *not* porn - at least not for most people. It may well have started out as a porn shoot, but has been publicised as a shock video, à-la Goatse, 2 Girls 1 Cup etc.

Granted it's "deeply nasty stuff available on the internet with sexual content or overtones", but it has as much place in a rational conversation about porn as snuff does.

GS(v)


----------



## Gromit (Oct 5, 2010)

I've decided that there is no pint me reading this thread as I don't own a teenager and the earliest that I might is 14 years from now.

By then porn will have evolved to hollgrams projected from a wrist watch and involve alien races which we have met and established sexy contact with.

The dilema will be different then and I'll reserch it then.#

But I'll close by agreeing that shock videos are not porn. They are shock videos designed for a viral purpose and so that people can post up youtube response videos. Not for titlation or to represent what is sexually acceptable.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 5, 2010)

gsv said:


> joustmaster, One Man One Jar is *not* porn - at least not for most people. It may well have started out as a porn shoot, but has been publicised as a shock video, à-la Goatse, 2 Girls 1 Cup etc.
> 
> Granted it's "deeply nasty stuff available on the internet with sexual content or overtones", but it has as much place in a rational conversation about porn as snuff does.
> 
> GS(v)



And do you think a child who isn't yet sexually active can tell the difference?


----------



## joustmaster (Oct 5, 2010)

when you get to the extremes of porn, then you arrive at shock videos. 
kids have unlimited access to all of this.


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## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Why is that? Are the men better able to understand and consent to what's going on than the women are?


 
I just meant that women are recruted more so than men, of course men are abused to but the numbers are generally lower.

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I suppose that was  what methlab   was getting at ,which is (in my opinion)  is a  patronising assumption about women who work in the industry. (based on second hand 'information' that his prohibition officer has told him)


 
The probation service are well aware of what the pron industry is about, how am i patronising women? Are you involved in porn?

peace


----------



## Cloo (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> And do you think a child who isn't yet sexually active can tell the difference?


 
I'd have thought that they probably can at least have an idea that some things are utterly gross and not normal and they wouldn't want to do them in a million years, thank you very much.

More borderline stuff could be more an issue, but I think kids look at the blantantly 'wrong' stuff more for the 'Eeeuh!' factor than because they think they'll learn something about sex from it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 5, 2010)

also what are you exactly meant to do about it?

there will always be wierd stuff on the internet    and  further regulations  on regular porn won't touch   what goes on on a lot of the net

this isn't about porn  this about children  expectations about sex and relationships... if  they are looking to porn for answers  then haven't  we as parents, teachers and society as a whole failed them  already?


----------



## Gromit (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> And do you think a child who isn't yet sexually active can tell the difference?


 
I think you are insulting the intelegence of 13-19 yr olds here.

I'd be seriously worried if i had a teenager and they didn't automatically twig that two women pooing into a cup and vomiting etc. wasn't normal. Or that hammering nails into your own cock wasn't normal. etc.

The fact most websites showing this stuff will advertise themselves and/or their content as 'sick' should be indicator enough to begin with.

There is plenty of info on the internet on such material which will explain as much. If they can find the videos they can find that info... if they were worried enough (which I would expect them to be) about what they saw to want to question it further.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 5, 2010)

Gromit said:


> I think you are insulting the intelegence of 13-19 yr olds here.
> 
> I'd be seriously worried if i had a teenager and they didn't automatically twig that two women pooing into a cup and vomiting etc. wasn't normal. Or that hammering nails into your own cock wasn't normal. etc.
> 
> ...


 
It's not about intelligence. It's about having a sexuality which is shaped by porn that is the issue. Anyway, I shan't carry on with this argument with the porn apologists as I can see you'd be absolutely fine if your children have anal sex when they're 12 [hmm]


----------



## Gromit (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> It's about having a sexuality which is shaped by porn that is the issue.



That wasn't what the post you were answering was about. It was about shock being different from porn and then you suggesting kids wouldn't be able to tell the difference.



trashpony said:


> Anyway, I shan't carry on with this argument with the porn apologists as I can see you'd be absolutely fine if your children have anal sex when they're 12 [hmm]


 
I haven't read the entire thread. Can you point out where someone has said that please?

I'm fine with kids being sexually curious before they are sexually active.
Curriousity before experience is quite natural. Its preparatory learning.

What we are arguing about is how wide should that preparatory learning be.

I see this argument as no different to preparatory learning for religion.
Where some people only teach kids about their narrow religious views rather than teaching the kid about all religious and atheist viewpoints and letting them make their own minds up when they are old enough.


----------



## Reno (Oct 5, 2010)

Only managed to listen to the programme today. The kids interviewed for it seemed quite together and could tell the difference between porn and reality. I don't think it's all as simple as "monkey see monkey do" and that they all go out having anal sex (the horror!) at the age of 13 or something. There is going to be a very small minority who will do something stuped, but then there always is.

That's not to say that there aren't worried about this, but they are more subtle, as in body image, etc.


----------



## gsv (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Anyway, I shan't carry on with this argument with the porn apologists


So far we'd mostly managed a civilised discussion. The "apologist" line is a nasty, disrespectful way to de-legitimise people who hold a different view from your own. For shame.

GS(v)


----------



## weltweit (Oct 5, 2010)

Well, I am agin it !!! 

 

Never had all this interweb pron when I was a kid..


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> And do you think a child who isn't yet sexually active can tell the difference?


 
Children usually won't bother with it. My recollection of childhood was that things sexual were 'yucky', until puberty, at which point they  became intensely fascinating.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> I just meant that women are recruted more so than men, of course men are abused to but the numbers are generally lower.
> 
> peace


 
I'm not sure what you mean. Are gay porn actors more 'volunteers' than women in straight porn? Are men abused less because they're somehow better able to take care of themselves?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I can see you'd be absolutely fine if your children have anal sex when they're 12 [hmm]


 
Where in the hell did that come from??


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> It's not about intelligence. It's about having a sexuality which is shaped by porn that is the issue. Anyway, I shan't carry on with this argument with the porn apologists as I can see you'd be absolutely fine if your children have anal sex when they're 12 [hmm]


 
The spirit of Mary Whitehouse is alive and well.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Are gay porn actors more 'volunteers' than women in straight porn? Are men abused less because they're somehow better able to take care of themselves?


 
Fuck knows


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

trashpony said:


> It's not about intelligence. It's about having a sexuality which is shaped by porn that is the issue. Anyway, I shan't carry on with this argument with the porn apologists as I can see you'd be absolutely fine if your children have anal sex when they're 12 [hmm]


 
When I was 14, I had a motorcycle. I saw Evel Knievel do this on tv:



I thought it was pretty damn cool. No way in hell I was going to try it, though!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Fuck knows


 
Yeah. It's just common sense that women are weaker and more vulnerable, I suppose?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yeah. It's just common sense that women are weaker and more vulnerable, I suppose?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

> Originally Posted by METH LAB
> I just meant that women are recruted more so than men, of course men are abused to but the numbers are generally lower.



So why is that? Are they more gullible? Easier to hoodwink?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> So why is that? Are they more gullible? Easier to hoodwink?


 
I would assume that women are more likely to be put in an abuse role than a man. I suppose i could be wrong.

All i did was bring up the fact that porn is a dark abusive industry, to an extent that the human race of 2010 shouldant really stand for it. (the abuse that goes on behind the scenes of legal dvd's)

Stop talking bollox


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> I would assume that women are more likely to be put in an abuse role than a man. I suppose i could be wrong.
> 
> All i did was bring up the fact that porn is a dark abusive industry, to an extent that the human race of 2010 shouldant really stand for it.
> 
> Stop talking bollox


 
I'm not talking bollox. It always seems to be taken for granted that women are victimized and abused when they're in porn. No doubt some are. But to say that most or all are, seems to imply that they're somehow not capable of making rational decisions, or taking care of themselves. It's not necessarily you, but it seems to be a prevailing attitude when it comes to these porn discussions.

It's like by definition, if sex is somehow involved, then the women must be abused victims.


----------



## gsv (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> All i did was bring up the fact that porn is a dark abusive industry, to an extent that the human race of 2010 shouldant really stand for it. (the abuse that goes on behind the scenes of legal dvd's)


And all I've done is provide a strong case that dark abuse of performers is farr from universal. So how about dropping that canard?

GS(v)


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm not talking bollox. It always seems to be taken for granted that women are victimized and abused when they're in porn. No doubt some are. But to say that most or all are, seems to imply that they're somehow not capable of making rational decisions, or taking care of themselves. It's not necessarily you, but it seems to be a prevailing attitude when it comes to these porn discussions.
> 
> It's like by definition, if sex is somehow involved, then the women must be abused victims.



Obviously not all the women are abused, but women are much more likely then men to be coereced into porn/prostitution. Men are more willing to do it for the most part, there are exceptions obviously. Women more often than not do it out of necessity (just IMO like)

Perhaps 'most' is abit OTT, so i'll go with 'too many'



> It's like by definition, if sex is somehow involved, then the women must be abused victims.



I think in the porn industry a large percentage of the women are abused to some degree, too large a percentage. 

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

gsv said:


> And all I've done is provide a strong case that dark abuse of performers is farr from universal. So how about dropping that canard?
> 
> GS(v)


 
There are more types of abuse than dark abuse.

peace


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Obviously not all the women are abused, but women are much more likely then men to be coereced into porn/prostitution. Men are more willing to do it for the most part, there are exceptions obviously. Women more often than not do it out of necessity (just IMO like)



Why are the men more willing to do it?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> Why are the men more willing to do it?


 
... are you for real? stop askin stupid f*ckin questions. Out of all the porn thats ever been made in the world ever a larger percent of women are coereced and abused than that of men. 

Its the same in porn as it is with domestic abuse... mostly women on the ugly end, statistcal facts and your askin moronic questions like that.

peace


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> ... are you for real? stop askin stupid f*ckin questions. Out of all the porn thats ever been made in the world ever a larger percent of women are coereced and abused than that of men.
> 
> peace



So men like fucking more than women? They don't even need the money, they just enjoy it more? When ten of them are shagging one woman, that doesn't fuck them up at all either?


----------



## Reno (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> ... are you for real? stop askin stupid f*ckin questions. Out of all the porn thats ever been made in the world ever a larger percent of women are coereced and abused than that of men.
> 
> Its the same in porn as it is with domestic abuse... mostly women on the ugly end, statistcal facts and your askin moronic questions like that.
> 
> peace



That might be the most incongruous use of the word "peace" I've seen in quite some time.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> women are much more likely then men to be coereced into porn/prostitution. Men are more willing to do it for the most part,..... Women more often than not do it out of necessity (just IMO like)


 
This is the part that I think is 'common knowledge', but how do we know, for example, that men in gay porn aren't doing it out of necessity? I assume they do it for the wages just like women do, and aren't there as volunteers.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> ...  Out of all the porn thats ever been made in the world ever a larger percent of women are coereced and abused than that of men.


 
I've never seen any stats about how many men are coerced or abused.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This is the part that I think is 'common knowledge', but how do we know, for example, that men in gay porn aren't doing it out of necessity? I assume they do it for the wages just like women do, and aren't there as volunteers.


 
Of course its the same for some men in gay porn, i didnt say otherwise... as far as the numbers go, its more women than men that suffer, thats not to say that men dont suffer, but a lesser percentage. (imo) 

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've never seen any stats about how many men are coerced or abused.


 
Neither have i but i trust that a probation officer who has seen such stats doesant have any reason to lie about them. Perhaps youve never seen any as there arnt that many? perhaps men just dont come forward.

You would have to be abit of an idiot tbh to think that the number of abused men is anywhere near that of women.

but again its all just my opinion *shrug*, i could be completaly wrong

peace


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> ... are you for real? stop askin stupid f*ckin questions. Out of all the porn thats ever been made in the world ever a larger percent of women are coereced and abused than that of men.
> 
> Its the same in porn as it is with domestic abuse... mostly women on the ugly end, statistcal facts and your askin moronic questions like that.
> 
> peace



Being fucked is like being punched in the face? Maybe you're not doing it right.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Neither have i but i trust that a probation officer who has seen such stats doesant have any reason to lie about them. Perhaps youve never seen any as there arnt that many? perhaps men just dont come forward.
> 
> You would have to be abit of an idiot tbh to think that the number of abused men is anywhere near that of women.
> 
> ...


 
I've no doubt that spousal abuse of women is much higher than spousal abuse of men. I'm not sure what stats some probation officer would have about men being abused in the porn business, or where he/she would get them.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> Being fucked is like being punched in the face? Maybe you're not doing it right.


 
Domestic violance and porn are linked. 

You obviously know nothing about what your saying, the leval of understanding at the moment is pretty immature so imma leave you to it

peace


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Domestic violance and porn are linked.


 
Why did men punch out their wives back before the internet?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've no doubt that spousal abuse of women is much higher than spousal abuse of men. I'm not sure what stats some probation officer would have about men being abused in the porn business, or where he/she would get them.


 
Like ive allready said, probation work with victims... prostitutes, failed glammer modles coerced into porn... they work with the courts and the courts have far more abused women comming through then they do abused men.

peace


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Like ive allready said, probation work with victims... prostitutes, failed glammer modles coerced into porn... they work with the courts and the courts have far more abused women comming through then they do abused men.
> 
> peace


 
That's true. By definition, the people coming to a probation officer have some sort of problem. To the extent that there are non abused porn workers who aren't getting in trouble, a probation officer would never see them.

It's like getting a cop's view of society. It's skewed, because most of the people they deal with, are criminals.


----------



## gsv (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB, your opinions seem to be based on two things:

A small self-selecting group of abused women who have come to your PO's attention. He never sees the ones who don't consider themselves victims.
A very large dose of old-school gender bias on your part. If a man and a woman are having sex in a rough manner or a commercial setting, _of course_ the woman's likely being abused. Well-intended, but terribly patronising.
I'm afraid neither holds water. Unless you're willing to examine those assumptions, it's not even worth debating the point any further.

GS(v)


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Domestic violance and porn are linked.
> 
> You obviously know nothing about what your saying, the leval of understanding at the moment is pretty immature so imma leave you to it
> 
> peace



You and your probation officer are obviously working on a far higher plain than me. Good luck.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's true. By definition, the people coming to a probation officer have some sort of problem. To the extent that there are non abused porn workers who aren't getting in trouble, a probation officer would never see them.
> 
> It's like getting a cop's view of society. It's skewed, because most of the people they deal with, are criminals.



How do you know they are not in trouble just coz they never cross paths with probation? Not all victims manage to get out and tell people whats happaned to them, some pimps are very much in *control* of the situation. They keep there girls quiet. Some illegal brothels used for porn and prostitution dont get busted, so nobody knows of the abuse going on inside them.

I think its a dark industry thats easy to suger coat and justify itself.

peace


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> How do you know they are not in trouble just coz they never cross paths with probation?


 
I don't: but then, neither would your probation officer.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

gsv said:


> METH LAB, your opinions seem to be based on two things:
> 
> A small self-selecting group of abused women who have come to your PO's attention. He never sees the ones who don't consider themselves victims.
> A very large dose of old-school gender bias on your part. If a man and a woman are having sex in a rough manner or a commercial setting, _of course_ the woman's likely being abused. Well-intended, but terribly patronising.
> ...


 
small self selecting? There are more female prostitutes than there are male, any one of them could potentially be coerced into doing porn they dont want to do, men included but the numbers are less.

old scholl gender bias? how?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 5, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't: but then, neither would your probation officer.


 
But a large percentage DO come to the attention of the law, the courts, and probation... as victims. And victims know what goes on, and they tell the law, the courts,and the P.O.'s

People who live in a pretty world where all the flowers grow never hear of it maybe.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> But a large percentage DO come to the attention of the law, the courts, and probation... as victims.


 
You just said this:



> Not all victims manage to get out and tell people whats happaned to them,


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> But a large percentage DO come to the attention of the law, the courts, and probation... as victims. And victims know what goes on, and they tell the law, the courts,and the P.O.'s
> 
> People who live in a pretty world where all the flowers grow never hear of it.


 
I will agree, that the criminalization of any sort of sexual business will attract a criminal element to exploit it, meaning that there is a greater possibility of any people involved being victimized.


----------



## gsv (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> small self selecting? There are more female prostitutes than there are male, any one of them could potentially be coerced into doing porn they dont want to do, men included but the numbers are less.


The only people coming forward to the your or any other PO are those who perceive themselves as victims. Any porn performers (and sex workers for that matter) who are perfectly happy in their trade don't bring themselves to your PO's attention. Hence self-selecting.

Do you understand this?

GS(v)


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> The probation service are well aware of what the pron industry is about, how am i patronising women? Are you involved in porn?
> 
> peace


 
it's already been explained why your being patronising. No I'm not 'involved' in porn, but on a social level I know people who work in the industry and they are some of the soundest people you could ever hope to meet, as far as you can possibly get from  your dark imaginings about unscrupulous criminals  luring young vulnerable girls into their harems and paying them in drugs.
 I'm sure there is a dark side to porn (as there is to  almost everything in life) but I put it to you that you have  exaggerated this to a  ludicrous extent.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2010)

Having read the thread and looked at the links I found this: http://jezebel.com/5654930/six-sexy-facts-from-the-national-sex-study It could be suggested that the more common porn sex practises are being reflected in real life.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> it's already been explained why your being patronising. No I'm not 'involved' in porn, but on a social level I know people who work in the industry and they are some of the soundest people you could ever hope to meet, as far as you can possibly get from  your dark imaginings about unscrupulous criminals  luring young vulnerable girls into their harems and paying them in drugs.
> I'm sure there is a dark side to porn (as there is to  almost everything in life) but I put it to you that you have  exaggerated this to a  ludicrous extent.


 
The fact that it goes on at all is unacceptable, i havant exaggerated but you can bleive what you want, as will I and everybody else with an opinion.

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

gsv said:


> The only people coming forward to the your or any other PO are those who perceive themselves as victims. Any porn performers (and sex workers for that matter) who are perfectly happy in their trade don't bring themselves to your PO's attention. Hence self-selecting.
> 
> Do you understand this?
> 
> GS(v)



Police raid an illegal brothel used for porn and prostituation, all the women inside come to the attention of probation and victim support... do you understand this? A large percentage dont even realise they are victims they have lived with abuse for so long. Do you understand this? Some of these victims think that what is happaning to them is completaly normal as they have known no other life other than drugs, porn and prostitution... do you understand this? Some abused women end up in legal dvd's for the public to wank over, the public are blissfully unaware of what goes on behind the scenes and think coz they have bought / are wathcing 'legal' porn then everythings ok, this is not true.

Therre is more to abuse than the obvious physical abuse of women, do you understand this??


----------



## Gromit (Oct 6, 2010)

I'm all for protecting vulnerable members of society.

But i'm not for assuming that simply cause its a woman in porn she is a vulnerable person being exploited. 

I think you are patronisingly boxing women into that 'they are weak, can't defend themselves and need to be protected' victorian attitude. 

When we live in a modern world where the majority of women are perfectly capable of making very tough decisions such as are they willing to do porn to make money... or not. And then face the consquences of their decisions.

America and the UK have laws against the truly exploited. Kidnapped and forced etc.
We can't do much more than that except maybe fund the enforcement of such laws more heavily.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Pome abused women end up in legal dvd's for the public to wank over, the public are blissfully unaware of what goes on behind the scenes and think coz they have bought / are wathcing 'legal' porn then everythings ok, this is not true.


----------



## gsv (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Police raid an illegal brothel used for porn and prostituation, all the women inside come to the attention of probation and victim support... do you understand this? A large percentage dont even realise they are victims they have lived with abuse for so long. Do you understand this? Some of these victims think that what is happaning to them is completaly normal as they have known no other life other than drugs, porn and prostitution... do you understand this? Some abused women end up in legal dvd's for the public to wank over, the public are blissfully unaware of what goes on behind the scenes and think coz they have bought / are wathcing 'legal' porn then everythings ok, this is not true.
> 
> Therre is more to abuse than the obvious physical abuse of women, do you understand this??


Clearly you don't understand. OK.
There was no need to become aggressive and patronising.

GS(v)


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Gromit said:


> But i'm not for assuming that simply cause its a woman in porn she is a vulnerable person being exploited.
> .


 
I never said that, i said it goes on... of course there is a percentage of women who are fine with it all, there is also a percenatge that isnt.



> When we live in a modern world where the majority of women are perfectly capable of making very tough decisions such as are they willing to do porn to make money... or not. And then face the consquences of their decisions.



The majority (not all) of women involved in porn/prostitution do it as a last resort... not much other options going on like, coersion into porn with the promise of good money goes on... after that abuse may or may not start. A women can consent and agree to something and still be sufering from some kind of abuse and being controlled. this is the bit the some people on this thread dont seem to get, an abuser can come across as being very nice and very giving in order to maintain control.



> America and the UK have laws against the truly exploited. Kidnapped and forced etc.
> We can't do much more than that except maybe fund the enforcement of such laws more heavily.



There's more to abuse than kidnapped and forced, sex workers learn to detach from there job, they want there job as a means to an ends that doesant mean they are not being abused i suppose its a hard thing for some people to grasp. *shrug*

I suppose its fair to say i may have overstated it abit, but the fact that it goes on at all means a bit of overstating doesant really hurt (imo).

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

gsv said:


> Clearly you don't understand. OK.
> There was no need to become aggressive and patronising.
> 
> GS(v)



Its you that doesant understand. 

agressive? perhaps ever so slightly in a not really aggrrssive way i suppose it depends how you percive it, many apologies, i dont mean to offend.

I think that you calling me patronising is an attempt at dis-crediting me as youve run out of argument, but what do i know. could be wrong *shrug*

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


>


 
Good in-depth reply, thats really made me think that one.



> but I put it to you that you have exaggerated this to a ludicrous extent.



As a long term drug addict myself ive been surrounded by abused men and women, mostly women being abused by men... its a shit state of affairs that you seem unaware of. 

Porn 'can be' an opening for paid and suger coated abuse.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Do any women on this thread think im being patronising? if so i will certianly take that on board like and eat my hat.

peace


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> As a long term drug addict myself ive been surrounded by abused men and women, .


 and therefore you should know that  people from all walks of life use drugs, it's nothing unique to porn. 
In fact a lot of porn stars  are the complete opposite, they are very proud of their bodies and take  good care  of themselves


----------



## gsv (Oct 6, 2010)

Leave it dbd. He's aware of a certain very narrow set of experience that suits his woldview, and won't admit the existence of anything else. You can't persuade someone who's not even able to engage in the discussion.

GS(v)


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> and therefore you should know that  people from all walks of life use drugs, it's nothing unique to porn.
> In fact a lot of porn stars  are the complete opposite, they are very proud of their bodies and take  good care  of themselves


 
I never said it unique to porn, your going off topic... but since you have replied to that part of my post, sex workers use drugs to detach from the sex work.

sex work = money but its all abit seedy for some, so they take / get offerd drugs to manage... and it works! drugs are strong, people can handle anything if there addicted, will do anything to score... 



> they are very proud of their bodies and take good care of themselves



Ive no doubt thats true, others use stimulants to get in the mood and perform longer... the unfortunates need downers and smack to detach, and crack to convince them there almost enjoying it.

big smiles! 

or not now that this thread is making me think about it.

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

gsv said:


> Leave it dbd. He's aware of a certain very narrow set of experience that suits his woldview, and won't admit the existence of anything else. You can't persuade someone who's not even able to engage in the discussion.
> 
> GS(v)


 
What have i not admitted to? i freely admit that not everyone in porn is abused, have done all the way through the thread. Im engaging more than you today... im just trying to raise awareness, you seem (for some reason) very against the idea that the porn industry is a way of suger coating prostituation, abuse and control of women by men.  

I have my own ideas as to why your behaving like you are, but i'll keep them to myself as i know your easily upset. 

Whats more, i was talking to a case worker at one of the services i go to today about this thread, they get LOTS of former porn / sex wokers going there for help with this and that.... they have no idea how abused they have actually been! They speak of what happans and then the news is gently broken to them. abuse goes much further than the obvious type... but im repeating myself arnt i.

So thats police, probation, drug / alcohol services and social services all saying what im saying.... and then there's you. hmmm.

You havant gotta f*ckin clue about the topic, and it shows. 

Your last post was a cop out btw

peace


----------



## revol68 (Oct 6, 2010)

anal is vanilla ffs.

the problem i have with most porn is that it's mechanical as fuck, with loads of awful ballsack and penetration close ups, that and the fact nearly every scene seems to have two guys or more doing one girl and there is more often more erotic tension between the high fiving muscle bound dickheads than between them and the woman.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 6, 2010)

revol68 said:


> anal is vanilla ffs.
> 
> the problem i have with most porn is that it's mechanical as fuck, with loads of awful ballsack and penetration close ups, that and the fact nearly every scene seems to have two guys or more doing one girl and there is more often more erotic tension between the high fiving muscle bound dickheads than between them and the woman.


 
It must be one of the only instances when two naked men can rub their erect cocks together but still be considered straight. Weird.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> What have i not admitted to? i freely admit that not everyone in porn is abused, have done all the way through the thread. Im engaging more than you today... im just trying to raise awareness, you seem (for some reason) very against the idea that the porn industry is a way of suger coating prostituation, abuse and control of women by men.
> 
> I have my own ideas as to why your behaving like you are, but i'll keep them to myself as i know your easily upset.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think anyone would doubt these issues with many sex workers because as a marginalised, stigmatised industry it will attract both vulnerable people and vicious manipulative scum bags, however it is true that the sources you mention are inherently massively selective and one sided just as the AA, health services and police would be when discussing the effects of drugs on users.

Ultimately though it amazes me how hung up we are about porn which is essentially two actors doing what billions of us do routinely and yet violent films for entertainment are grand, which isn't to say I'm against violent films, tv shows or games infact I love them.


----------



## spacemonkey (Oct 6, 2010)

Santino said:


> Who needs empirical research when you've got 'imagining' on your side?


 
Sorry I didn't realise every opinion needed to be backed up with empirical research. 

Could you point me in the direction of some empirical research that shows increased violence against women as a direct result of increased porn consumption in boys? I admit I don't know much about it, and I'm fully willing to have my opinion changed.

By the way, I'm only basing my opinion on the fact that myself, and a lot of my peer group 'grew up' with instant access to hardcore porn. I'd say we were the first generation. I had the internet in my house when I was 10/11, as did many of my friends. I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that it increases violence towards girls, as some were suggesting.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 6, 2010)

revol68 said:


> Ultimately though it amazes me how hung up we are about porn which is essentially two actors doing what billions of us do routinely and yet violent films for entertainment are grand, which isn't to say I'm against violent films, tv shows or games infact I love them.



An uptight/disfunctional attitude to sex may partially explain that seeming incontiguity, but with pornographic violence there are also surely issues concerning the gendered character of the violence and also that much of it real rather than simulated. I would object to the real violence in say cage fighting for example (or even cruel sports involving animals) or racist depictions of violence (say, in rambo films).

btw is anal really vanilla in revol world: have you taken it up the arse often?


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 6, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> It must be one of the only instances when two naked men can rub their erect cocks together but still be considered straight. Weird.


 
innit. A lot of the straight men in porn acquire a gay fan base due to the homoerotic nature of what they do (but some of them get really  freaked out about being considered gay)


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 6, 2010)

"aint no fun if the homies can't have none".


----------



## revol68 (Oct 6, 2010)

Jeff Robinson said:


> An uptight/disfunctional attitude to sex may partially explain that seeming incontiguity, but with pornographic violence there are also surely issues concerning the gendered character of the violence and also that much of it real rather than simulated. I would object to the real violence in say cage fighting for example (or even cruel sports involving animals) or racist depictions of violence (say, in rambo films).
> 
> btw is anal really vanilla in revol world: have you taken it up the arse often?



well I'd never expect a girl to take it there if I wasn't prepared for something in kind.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

> btw is anal really vanilla in revol world: have you taken it up the arse often?



No it isnt really, sex workers use local anesthetic and muscle relaxants and whatever it takes to indure it. Porn makes anal look common place and a completaly normal part of sex, its not.

Although in the vids you wont see that (anesthetic etc...), it happans off camara. (thats if they are lucky enough to be offerd it in the first place, or allowed to use it)

Although i should say this is just what ive heard from these 'highly selective' (ahem) places that deal with sex worker fallout, week in week out.

peace


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 6, 2010)

as someone who as partaken in anal sex ...

man they must be doing something wrong... all we needed was some ky...


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> as someone who as partaken in anal sex ...
> 
> man they must be doing something wrong... all we needed was some ky...


 
For many hours every day? Every day for weeks and months on end?? sometimes in the absolute extreame? (2 at the same time etc..???)  HUGE f*ckin dildo's?

anal sex between consensual partners is a little bit differant to anal porn... in the sense its alot more 'finite' as apoosed to ongoing heavy daily stuff which is devoyed of any positive emotion.

peace


----------



## revol68 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> No it isnt really, sex workers use local anesthetic and muscle relaxants and whatever it takes to indure it. Porn makes anal look common place and a completaly normal part of sex, its not.
> 
> Although in the vids you wont see that (anesthetic etc...), it happans off camara. (thats if they are lucky enough to be offerd it in the first place, or allowed to use it)
> 
> ...


 
I know plenty of gay men and straight women who enjoy anal sex and it certainly doesn't require anaesthetics, of course in an industry setting that's another matter.

And seriously if you haven't had your brown wings you are essentially a virgin.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> For many hours every day? Every day for weeks and months on end?? sometimes in the absolute extreame? (2 at the same time etc..???)
> 
> peace


 
well exactly, even missionary becomes a rather painful experience if you are being pounded for many hours each days for weeks on end.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 6, 2010)

a.) wait people are taking my post seriously?
b.) i'm good  but i don't have that kind of stamina
c.) wouldn't the same apply to any intimate physical activity
d.) does the fact that bad practices take place  mean that  all instances of that act in a media  be banned?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> a.) wait people are taking my post seriously?
> b.) i'm good  but i don't have that kind of stamina
> c.) wouldn't the same apply to any intimate physical activity
> d.) does the fact that bad practices take place  mean that  all instances of that act in a media  be banned?



a.) its a serious thread so unless you state otherwise, yea...
b.) Im glad you get to decide when, where, how and who with (when you do have the stamina)
c.) Is there intamacy in porn? depends what the word means to you i suppose... to me intamacy = emotional closeness. porn doesant exactly have that in spades.
d.) No. 

peace


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 6, 2010)

humour in all things...

anyhow  nobody seems to suggest that bad things don't happen in porn  so i'm not sure what's more to say

yes bad things happen  and     it would be great if something could be  done to prevent this  but   in the mean time where does it leave us?  

this thread seems to  be tarring all  porn with the same brush 

plus  somehow linking   the  actual nasty happening  of porn  with  other things in life in an unfair manner

anal sex in the porn industry can be  very unpleasant .. ok   
anal sex in porn  may  make people more interested  in having anal sex... well that might well be true too 
  but  it doesn't mean  that  the anal sex those people have will be  tainted by the  nastier goings on of the porn industry

i'm not sure what  this thead is trying to say


----------



## spacemonkey (Oct 6, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i'm not sure what  this thead is trying to say



This was one of the first assertions on the thread. 



Kid_Eternity said:


> Also increased domestic violence against young girls when they won't do all the things young boys see in pornos...



I really would like it backed up with some sort of evidence. It's worrying if true, but my _opinion _ is that it's a load of tosh.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> No it isnt really, sex workers use local anesthetic and muscle relaxants and whatever it takes to indure it. Porn makes anal look common place and a completaly normal part of sex, its not.
> 
> Although in the vids you wont see that (anesthetic etc...), it happans off camara. (thats if they are lucky enough to be offerd it in the first place, or allowed to use it)
> 
> ...


 
It's not anal, but - the record number of sexual partners for a woman in one day is 919. She used four tubes of lube, but no anaesthetic is mentioned.


http://www.spike.com/video/record-breaking-sex/3330712


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## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's not anal, but - the record number of sexual partners for a woman in one day is 919. She used four tubes of lube, but no anaesthetic is mentioned.
> 
> 
> http://www.spike.com/video/record-breaking-sex/3330712



Do you think she is happy or exploited?

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> humour in all things...
> 
> anyhow  nobody seems to suggest that bad things don't happen in porn  so i'm not sure what's more to say
> 
> ...


 
Its abit of a wibbly wobbly thread, all i was ever trying to do was raise awareness of things, like the power and control that some men have over some women in porn/prostitution. some people didnt like that for whatever reason so i had to expain it very very slowly for them

peace


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Do you think she is happy or exploited?
> 
> peace


 
Do you mean the housewife who decided to try for the record? Well, for starters, she holds the record, so she achieved what she set out to do.


Thinking that exploitation must be involved any time sex gets mixed with business or publicity, is christian-style, puritannical thinking.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Its abit of a wibbly wobbly thread, all i was ever trying to do was raise awareness of things, like the power and control that some men have over some women in porn/prostitution. some people didnt like that for whatever reason so i had to expain it very very slowly for them
> 
> peace



It's a good thing that those poor women have men like you around, to speak for them and be their champions.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Who said 'any time'? wassant me.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 6, 2010)

> Also increased domestic violence against young girls when they won't do all the things young boys see in pornos...





spacemonkey said:


> This was one of the first assertions on the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I really would like it backed up with some sort of evidence. It's worrying if true, but my _opinion _ is that it's a load of tosh.



I think that's both quite a ridiculous statement that would require some very strong empirical evidence and furthermore even if there was such a connection it would be idiotic to hold the porn's production of 'unrealistic demands' as responsible rather than the fact a man would feel justified in resorting to violence if his desires (realistic or otherwise). Through the centuries violence against women has been handed out for a whole armada of various reasons and at the centre of it lies the idea that violence is an appropriate means to get what you want, to uphold your domination, it is that which needs challenged not the range of various contexts that such logic rears their heads be they as dreary an banal as washing the dishes or dressing up in a gimp suit and putting carrots in your arse. 

Also there has been an undercurrent of assuming female passivity in terms of desires, as if all women only want to cuddle and spoon with the lights out and aren't just as depraved or weird and only do such things to please their 'man'.

The problem with porn is ofcourse that it is a form dominated by certain restrictive forms of sexuality, like the rest of the media tends towards a kind of hyper-reality, but then again most of us credit viewers to be able to critically engage with such media and also to detach fantasy from reality.

I mean a lot of women love Daniel Craig in James Bond but they don't tend to expect their partners to save the world whilst remaining suave, charming and yet tinged with a sense of melancholy.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> No it isnt really, sex workers use local anesthetic


 
When you say 'anaesthetic', are you talking about Preparation H?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's a good thing that those poor women have men like you around, to speak for them and be their champions.


 
Whats wrong with raising awarness of bad things? Im not trying to be anybodys champion. I am trying for volunteer care work at some point down the line, so its good for me at least to be aware of what may well come up in such a role.

If you wanna pretend its something that doesant happen that much and abused women are actually making informed choices without pressure from controlling men, then thats up to you i suppose. It IS good that some people are more aware of the differant levals of abuse, in order to combat it.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> When you say 'anaesthetic', are you talking about Preparation H?


 
woops! my mistake


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Whats wrong with raising awarness of bad things? Im not trying to be anybodys champion. I am trying for volunteer for care work at some point down the line, so its good for me at least to be aware of what may well come up in such a role.
> 
> If you wanna pretend its something that doesant happen that much and abused women are actually making informed choices without pressure from controlling men, then thats up to you i suppose. It IS good that some people are more aware of the differant levals of abuse, in order to combat it.



I've already agreed that it occurs. I've stated that to the extent that a sex business is maginalized or made illegal, it will become open to predation by criminals and sociopaths who flourish in an environment without oversight or control.

Abortion makes a good example. There once was a time that it was illegal. It still took place, but it was done in dirty rooms with coathangers by amateurs, or it was done by failed doctors etc.  Once it became legal, it became supervised, standards were imposed, and there was a big positive effect wrt womens health.

I also think that worker exploitation can and does occur in any capitalist employment scenario, whether sex is part of the picture or not.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> read the thread maybe? and i said 'local' anesthetic.


 
Preparation H is a local anaesthetic.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Preparation H is a local anaesthetic.


 
Sorry i thought you meant smack then for some reason.

Prep H is pile cream init?, not really the kind of strengh they need... think more along the lines of pure novacaine, type of gear dentits use to rip teeth out without pain.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 6, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've already agreed that it occurs. I've stated that to the extent that a sex business is maginalized or made illegal, it will become open to predation by criminals and sociopaths who flourish in an environment without oversight or control.
> 
> Abortion makes a good example. There once was a time that it was illegal. It still took place, but it was done in dirty rooms with coathangers by amateurs, or it was done by failed doctors etc.  Once it became legal, it became supervised, standards were imposed, and there was a big positive effect wrt womens health.
> 
> I also think that worker exploitation can and does occur in any capitalist employment scenario, whether sex is part of the picture or not.


 
Then we agree

I think, due to experaince with street leval addiction and all that surounds it, and what services tell me, that it goes on more often than people think. And that there are many levals of control and abuse that arnt recongised as control or abuse to the abused person at the time, but actaully are.

and thats basically all im trying to get accross with some rather heavy resistance i might add

peace


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Whats wrong with raising awarness of bad things? Im not trying to be anybodys champion. I am trying for volunteer for care work at some point down the line, so its good for me at least to be aware of what may well come up in such a role.
> 
> If you wanna pretend its something that doesant happen that much and abused women are actually making informed choices without pressure from controlling men, then thats up to you i suppose. It IS good that some people are more aware of the differant levals of abuse, in order to combat it.



yes but the flipside is that it is this very paternalistic 'save these fallen women' shit that acts to uphold the very power relations and structures that produce and reproduce sexual inequality and disempowerment.

basically you should never start from the assumption that all woman in porn are poor victims who don't even know their own minds (Mackinnon's feminised trade union consciousness) nor should anyone be naive that a billion dollar industry existing on the margins of society and beyond the gaze of 'respectability' does not involve extremely shady individuals and practices but instead is really just some kind of benevolent celebration of sexuality in it's many various guises.

So basically neither Dworkinite all sex is rape nor the 3rd wave post feminist crap of empowering yourself by being paid to take a bukkake bath.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I also think that worker exploitation can and does occur in any capitalist employment scenario, whether sex is part of the picture or not.



Exploitation is the defining feature of ALL capitalist employment.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 7, 2010)

This is a (not entirely safe for work) website written by a female worker in the industry
ttp://www.feminisnt.com/topics/nutters/
The reason I'm sharing it here, is I thought the following quote particulary relevant to this.


> "What about porn companies that don't treat their performers well?"  None of us have any real statistics about what percentage of performers feel abused or unhappy with their jobs, and I'm not going to waste my time debating my guesses with other people who are also making guesses.  (My guess, though, is that the porn industry has a higher level of job satisfaction than most other occupations.)  Are some workers in the porn industry mistreated or miserable?  Of course, sadly, but that doesn't make the jiz biz especially evil.  There are exploited workers in every sector in every country in the world.  Further, it is pornographers and performers  who are the most likely to know about adult companies that have had complaints from talent.  If you want the real scoop on a given porn company and how well they treat their workers, you don't email a women's studies academic on the other side of the country to ask for a referral.  You ask people in the porn industry.  Sex workers are pretty damn protective of each other and will gladly share if they've ever heard of a company engaging in bad business practices.


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

> basically you should never start from the assumption that all woman in porn are poor victims who don't even know their own minds



I said nothing of the sort, im talking about porn out of nesessity can = a pathway to abuse and it does go on.

The resistance to such a simple piece of information and opinion on this thread has actually baffled me somewhat.

save these fallen women? im not on any crusade to be anyones night in armour im just typing information that is relavant to the thread and being called patronsing for it, although i have pm's from women regarding this thread telling me im not patronising at all and have said nothing out of place at all.

please dont insult me with this 'you must feel quite the champion' bollox coz my IQ is beyond it. 

I have an opinion on the subject through personal life experiance and close dealings with the services ive mentioned, im no authority but i would say im abit more tuned in to the situation than some of the peep's on this thread

peace


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> This is a (not entirely safe for work) website written by a female worker in the industry
> ttp://www.feminisnt.com/topics/nutters/
> The reason I'm sharing it here, is I thought the following quote particulary relevant to this.


 
That type of front is spewed out regular by the likes of sexetara(virgin 1), and simaler stuff... its just an example of a women wanting to keep her job to makes ends meet. over time people learn to like things that get them by. Like white cider.... it tastes like shit but it soon becomes easy drinkable if thats all an alkie can afford to get by, then it gets a thumbs up... when really its marketted towards people with a drink problem and is very bad.

OR she might very much enjoy her job.



> You ask people in the porn industry.



Really? thats like askin an alkie if white cider is good or not. People in the porn industry are getting paid in some form or another and despite what might or might not be going on they will defend it if they have nothing else.

herion addicts will defend herion as there best freind that can do know wrong... etc....its always better to look from the outside in, rather than to ask the inside directly (imo)

I wonder how many ex female porn / sex workers would speak highly of the industry? some no doubt would, i think a greater percentage would not.

peace


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Sorry i thought you meant smack then for some reason.
> 
> Prep H is pile cream init?, not really the kind of strengh they need... think more along the lines of pure novacaine, type of gear dentits use to rip teeth out without pain.



They inject novocaine. Are these women getting novocaine injections in their butts? And why? With lubrication, why would they need a shot of novocaine in the butt?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> Exploitation is the defining feature of ALL capitalist employment.


 
That's true in that the owner derives more profit from the worker's work, than is paid back to the worker as wages. My point is that it's not correct to put sex work into some sort of special exploitation category.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> I said nothing of the sort, im talking about porn out of nesessity can = a pathway to abuse and it does go on.


 
What is 'porn out of necessity'? Most anyone who works at any job, does so out of necessity.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> What is 'porn out of necessity'? Most anyone who works at any job, does so out of necessity.


 
when porn/sex work is the only option of decent money, without that decent money person struggles, the persons kids struggle.... so they do porn/sex work, they dont like it but it does provide good money.... so they defend it, to keep the income they have to defend the industry coz that industry is paying for there kids food

i would have thought that was obvious though

like i used to defend my drug dealers, have them down as good peep's.... ffs what was i on about with that lookin back? they had me right where they wanted me, i defended them coz they had what i needed. they were all complete scum but i didnt see it at the time, i was under there control... to get what i needed i had to defend them, speak good of them... just like the women in porn industry bollox documenteris like sexetera, jus like a women who defends her pimp...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> i have pm's from women regarding this thread telling me im not patronising at all and have said nothing out of place at all.


 
So, their opinion coincides with yours. They should take part in the thread discussion.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> when porn/sex work is the only option of decent money.


 
As opposed to working at McD at minimum wage, do you mean?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> That type of front is spewed out regular by the likes of sexetara(virgin 1), and simaler stuff... its just an example of a women wanting to keep her job to makes ends meet. over time people learn to like things that get them by. Like white cider.... it tastes like shit but it soon becomes easy drinkable if thats all an alkie can afford to get by, then it gets a thumbs up... when really its marketted towards people with a drink problem and is very bad.
> 
> OR she might very much enjoy her job.
> 
> peace


 
this is the thing though because of peoples own judeo christian hang ups they will assert that anyone who claims to enjoy sex work is either lying or working under some false consciousness, the fact that such people do not hold all other jobs to that standard and infact make a special case of sex work as 'exploitative'.

also the scenario you give between developing enjoyment in something in order to put up with it or actually just enjoying it isn't an either/or one, just like many other things in life people often do them to get buy, through economic coercion and then end up coming to enjoy elements of it, often to the point that they identify with it to such a level they blind themselves to the obviously exploitative nature of it, again this isn't something unique to porn, infact what is more unique to porn is the fact that most performers don't really identify with it and so it's exploitative nature is there for all to see. Sure there are a few actresses who really enjoy it, who find it arousing and a great way of earning a living, some even go on to make there own movies and fashion a brand out of it but these are few and far between and there success stems in large part because of their obvious enthusiasm stands out against an ocean of grim joyless porn.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> this is the thing though because of peoples own judeo christian hang ups they will assert that anyone who claims to enjoy sex work is either lying or working under some false consciousness, the fact that such people do not hold all other jobs to that standard and infact make a special case of sex work as 'exploitative'.
> 
> also the scenario you give between developing enjoyment in something in order to put up with it or actually just enjoying it isn't an either/or one, just like many other things in life people often do them to get buy, through economic coercion and then end up coming to enjoy elements of it, often to the point that they identify with it to such a level they blind themselves to the obviously exploitative nature of it, again this isn't something unique to porn, infact what is more unique to porn is the fact that most performers don't really identify with it and so it's exploitative nature is there for all to see. Sure there are a few actresses who really enjoy it, who find it arousing and a great way of earning a living, some even go on to make there own movies and fashion a brand out of it but these are few and far between and there success stems in large part because of their obvious enthusiasm stands out against an ocean of grim joyless porn.



i never said it was excusive to porn


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> when porn/sex work is the only option of decent money, without that decent money person struggles, the persons kids struggle.... so they do porn/sex work, they dont like it but it does provide good money.... so they defend it, to keep the income they have to defend the industry coz that industry is paying for there kids food
> 
> i would have thought that was obvious though
> 
> like i used to defend my drug dealers, have them down as good peep's.... ffs what was i on about with that lookin back? they had me right where they wanted me, i defended them coz they had what i needed. they were all complete scum but i didnt see it at the time, i was under there control... to get what i needed i had to defend them, speak good of them... just like the women in porn industry bollox documenteris like sexetera, jus like a women who defends her pimp...


 
there's a reason a lot of women do sex work over minimum wages jobs and it has more to do with the exploitation and shitness of the minimum wage occupations than some sort of inability to recognise being exploited.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> As opposed to working at McD at minimum wage, do you mean?


 
yes. when other jobs just aint enough to put food on the table for the amount of heads that need to be fed, or when drugs are allready involved...etc..


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> there's a reason a lot of women do sex work over minimum wages jobs and it has more to do with the exploitation and shitness of the minimum wage occupations than some sort of inability to recognise being exploited.


 
I never said they didnt recognise it. Are you winding me up or soemthing?

Of course they can recognise it dont be so bloody patronising, they do it for there children in some cases, or if drugs are allready involved, or out of coersion after a failed modeling carear or any other number of reasons

jesus i'll just repeat myself forever and a day is it?


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> when porn/sex work is the only option of decent money, without that decent money person struggles, the persons kids struggle.... so they do porn/sex work, they dont like it but it does provide good money.... so they defend it, to keep the income they have to defend the industry coz that industry is paying for there kids food
> 
> i would have thought that was obvious though


  well, that's where your wrong as well. Which makes me doubt your credibility even more. The porn industry is losing money, it's hardly a source of easy cash  for desperate people. 
Good quality porn that's going to make a profit is  expensive to produce, it's not just a matter of getting a camcorder out and filming people bonking away. Most people working in the industry these days will tell you that's it's not as profitable as the myths suggest.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> , some even go on to make there own movies and fashion a brand out of it but these are few and far between and there success stems in large part because of their obvious enthusiasm stands out against an ocean of grim joyless porn.


 
That's the same in any line of work, not just 'grim joyless porn'. Only a few computer programmers etc go on to become Bill Gates or Larry Ellison or Mark Zuckerberg. Most people doing it  just grind it out day by day to get a paycheck.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> So, their opinion coincides with yours. They should take part in the thread discussion.


 
i get the impression they feel like there bangin there heads against a brick wall... and so do i for that matter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> yes. when other jobs just aint enough to put food on the table for the amount of heads that need to be fed, or when drugs are allready involved...etc..


 
The problem with that argument is that the vast majority of people are able to make ends meet one way or another without going into a sex business. I'd suggest that there are very few instances where the only option allowing one to get a steady meal, is porn acting or prostitution.

The one area where this holds some water, is drug addiction. It might be harder to make ends meet if you've no education etc, and 'ends meeting', means 100 pounds per day for drugs. But then the issue becomes, who is doing the exploiting: is it the porn director, or is it the dealer?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

Do you think porn is inherently more exploitative than working in McDonalds?

Basically the whole debate around sex work is a red herring that allows liberals to get all moralistic, much like the issue of exotic sweatshops in far off places, it allows them to parcel off little issues and treat them as special concerns, somehow unconnected to wider exploitation, as such they like to fixate on porn and prostitution, to harp on about how many of the women in it have drug habits or have been abused, that is making them special 'vulnerable' subjects separate from the wider working class whose exploitation becomes normalised.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> The porn industry is losing money, .


 
I don't believe that.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> well, that's where your wrong as well. Which makes me doubt your credibility even more. The porn industry is losing money, it's hardly a source of easy cash  for desperate people.
> Good quality porn that's going to make a profit is  expensive to produce, it's not just a matter of getting a camcorder out and filming people bonking away. Most people working in the industry these days will tell you that's it's not as profitable as the myths suggest.


 
its accesable to women down on there luck when an interview at mcdonalds isnt so quickly accesable.. Its cash in hand, its drugs in hand, it doesant have to be done official with bank accounts etc...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> i get the impression they feel like there bangin there heads against a brick wall... and so do i for that matter.


 
Funny that: I feel the same way.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't believe that.


 
me neither


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> its accesable to women down on there luck when an interview at mcdonalds isnt. Its cash in hand, its drugs in hand, it doesant have to be done official with bank accounts etc...


 
if you think most pornstars would have decided against their career choice if only their local McD's was hiring you're deranged, I'd say most get into it because it pays considerably better than working in McDonalds.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

> Do you think porn is inherently more exploitative than working in McDonalds?



Yes ffs they are selling there bodies. dont be so silly


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> its accesable to women down on there luck when an interview at mcdonalds isnt so quickly accesable.. Its cash in hand, its drugs in hand, it doesant have to be done official with bank accounts etc...


 
Around here, the really down and out addicts make money in a few ways: women will turn tricks; men will do B and Es, other petty theft, robbing people of their welfare money etc. Imo, it's a mixture of the addiction/ illegality of drugs, that is the real exploiter.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> if you think most pornstars would have decided against their career choice if only their local McD's was hiring you're deranged, I'd say most get into it because it pays considerably better than working in McDonalds.


 
thats what ive allready said.

stop taking the piss


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't believe that.


 
people love porn but they hate paying for it (I include myself in that) Sites like pornotube etc give it away free and therefore not that many people are  buying  their porn these days


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Yes ffs they are selling there bodies. dont be so silly


 
what are you selling to mcdonalds for a wage, fucking magic beans?

do we only sell our bodies when they are sexualised?

what victorian judeo christian shit.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The problem with that argument is that the vast majority of people are able to make ends meet one way or another without going into a sex business. I'd suggest that there are very few instances where the only option allowing one to get a steady meal, is porn acting or prostitution.
> 
> The one area where this holds some water, is drug addiction. It might be harder to make ends meet if you've no education etc, and 'ends meeting', means 100 pounds per day for drugs. But then the issue becomes, who is doing the exploiting: is it the porn director, or is it the dealer?



why just make ends meet when you can get bigger money for your children doing porn? provide better through porn? parents will do anything for there kids. (most at least)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Yes ffs they are selling there bodies. dont be so silly


 
Sort of: they're using their bodies to make money. Washing dishes or cleaning toilets as a chambermaid, is also using your body to get money. They aren't selling their bodies so much as renting them out.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> people love porn but they hate paying for it (I include myself in that) Sites like pornotube etc give it away free and therefore not that many people are  buying  their porn these days


 
I'd assume that the money is made just like with other media: via the advertising that accompanies it, or data mining etc. wrt people visiting the site.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> what are you selling to mcdonalds for a wage, fucking magic beans?
> 
> do we only sell our bodies when they are sexualised?
> 
> what victorian judeo christian shit.


 
if you cant see the differance between prostitution and flipping burgers your a fuckin retard, end of


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> why just make ends meet when you can get bigger money for your children doing porn? provide better through porn? parents will do anything for there kids. (most at least)


 
It's certainly one choice. Not the only one, mind.


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## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> why just make ends meet when you can get bigger money for your children doing porn? provide better through porn? parents will do anything for there kids. (most at least)


 
so if porn allows them this kind of lifestyle that working in McDonald's doesn't what makes it inherently more exploitative? Surely that would become a matter of individual subjectivity around someone's attitude to sex.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> if you cant see the differance between prostitution and flipping burgers your a fuckin retard, end of


 
Explain the difference beyond the obvious one that one employs the hands, and one employs the vagina.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's certainly one choice. Not the only one, mind.


 
but if its the only accesable choice... then thats what happans, when money is needed proper quick, without the hassle of it being official etc...


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Explain the difference beyond the obvious one that one employs the hands, and one employs the vagina.


 
i dont think i have to tbh, your being silly. it doesant suit you


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> if you cant see the differance between prostitution and flipping burgers your a fuckin retard, end of


 
I can obviously tell the difference but then again I can tell the difference between a miner and a bank clerk, a cleaner and a software tester.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> but if its the only accesable choice... then thats what happans, when money is needed proper quick, without the hassle of it being official etc...


The only time it ever comes close to being the only choice, is when the person is drug addicted.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> i dont think i have to tbh, your being silly. it doesant suit you


 
You might think I am, but I'm not. I don't subscribe to the same christian puritanical views that you seem to hold, about some sort of sanctity of sex.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> so if porn allows them this kind of lifestyle that working in McDonald's doesn't what makes it inherently more exploitative? Surely that would become a matter of individual subjectivity around someone's attitude to sex.


 
If the only thing a women has to offer in life, for whatever reason, is her sexuallity... it can and does get exploited and its wrong.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> If the only thing a women has to offer in life, for whatever reason, is her sexuallity... it can and does get exploited and its wrong.



She's always got two hands and a back. She can make beds, be a flagperson etc etc. There are tons of low skill jobs for both women and men.


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'd assume that the money is made just like with other media: via the advertising that accompanies it, or data mining etc. wrt people visiting the site.


 
yeah theres that , but the goldrush that happened in porn  when the internet took off and  a lot of people made a lot of money very quickly has defiantly ended


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

The difference is that one involves (and whisper it now) _sex_, y'know that thing we have made such a big thing about policing for centuries.

Like I said your concern isn't exploitation, your concern is you projecting your own attitudes about sex onto sex workers and coming to the conclusion that because you wouldn't or couldn't do such work without reasons beyond the kind of economic coercion that under pins all other work and so you come to the conclusion that sex work is a special form of exploitation qualitatively distinct from other labour.


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You might think I am, but I'm not. I don't subscribe to the same christian puritanical views that you seem to hold, about some sort of sanctity of sex.


 
for the 300'th time

All i have done on this thread is type infomation that i have learnt from people who deal with abused women, and things i have learnt from what goes on around the life of a street addict (myself)

If you think the majority of women in porn are fine and dandy your living in a very cosy world far away from the reailty. Your beliveing the fronts that the porn industry spew out. They say its ok... you say to yourself "wel it must be ok, the tv says so and that was real porn stars they were interviewing" 

i


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> She's always got two hands and a back. She can make beds, be a flagperson etc etc. There are tons of low skill jobs for both women and men.


 
less money though we have allready coverd this


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> If the only thing a women has to offer in life, for whatever reason, is her sexuallity... it can and does get exploited and its wrong.


 
What so it's okay to have everything else exploited.

have you ever heard of this guy Marx, he had some interesting things to say about this whole class of people with nothing to sell but themselves.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> The difference is that one involves (and whisper it now) _sex_, y'know that thing we have made such a big thing about policing for centuries.
> 
> Like I said your concern isn't exploitation, your concern is you projecting your own attitudes about sex onto sex workers and coming to the conclusion that because you wouldn't or couldn't do such work without reasons beyond the kind of economic coercion that under pins all other work and so you come to the conclusion that sex work is a special form of exploitation qualitatively distinct from other labour.


 
Not just me.... the services that pick up the peices have convinced me. If you had asked me 2 years ago or somethin i wouldant even have an opinion, didnt know shit about it cept for what i had seen myself, at first i put that down to me seing a minority. I am now convinced otherwise.

I only ever post about what i know, and what i belive to be factual.

i dont sit around making up shit off the top of my head like the rest of the net, its just not me.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> less money though we have allready coverd this



Yes, it pays better. So does coke dealing.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

if you want to put an end to the exploitation of women in sex work I'm afraid you're going to have to put an end to exploitation in general, namely capitalism and wage labour, short of that anything said on the matter is moralising hand wringing liberal wank.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> If you think the majority of women in porn are fine and dandy your living in a very cosy world far away from the reailty. Your beliveing the fronts that the porn industry spew out. They say its ok... you say to yourself "wel it must be ok, the tv says so and that was real porn stars they were interviewing"
> 
> i



If you want to think that you're all edgy and with-it because you've been addicted to drugs, that's fine. One thing it doesn't do though, is make you better informed than others about various social issues.

You've already admitted that most of your info on this comes second hand from a probation officer. You've held forth on novocaine butt injections being needed for anal sex, even though you've also admitted that you've never particpated in it yourself.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> if you want to put an end to the exploitation of women in sex work I'm afraid you're going to have to put an end to exploitation in general, namely capitalism and wage labour, short of that anything said on the matter is moralising hand wringing liberal wank.


 
A big first step would be the complete decriminalization of sex work, so that it could come under the regular supervision and control that applies to things like physiotherapy or garage mechanics.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Not just me.... the services that pick up the peices have convinced me. If you had asked me 2 years ago or somethin i wouldant even have an opinion, didnt know shit about it cept for what i had seen myself, at first i put that down to me seing a minority. I am now convinced otherwise.
> 
> I only ever post about what i know, and what i belive to be factual.


 
Like I said it is the marginal taboo nature of sex work that means it will always attract the vulnerable and the predatorial, however like the drug trade it is not something qualitatively different from other industries.


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If you want to think that you're all edgy and with-it because you've been addicted to drugs, that's fine. One thing it doesn't do though, is make you better informed than others about various social issues.
> 
> You've already admitted that most of your info on this comes second hand from a probation officer. You've held forth on novocaine butt injections being needed for anal sex, even though you've also admitted that you've never particpated in it yourself.



second hand from police, probation, drug / alcohol services and social services. not just one P.O 

edgy and with it? 

why would i have to participate myself when many victims are telling it?

OF COURSE the services i mention are gonna be better infiormed than you, they dont have to put up with or be taken in by the fronts that the HUGE industry is capable of putting out.



> One thing it doesn't do though, is make you better informed than others about various social issues.



well yes it does actually since addiction leads to police, probation, drug / alcohol services and social services... and they all say the same thing i do, they convinced me of this opinion in the first place.

not to mention the addicts i used to hang with who would prostitue themselves for a hit... opening doors for pimps and onto the porn industry, some with kids, some without.

if you people cant see the differance between that and working at mcd's then you need to have a word with yaselves


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> second hand from police, probation, drug / alcohol services and social services. not just one P.O
> 
> edgy and with it?
> 
> ...


 
Whatever. I take offence when someone accuses me of buying the party line from the television set, when first of all, you have no idea of who I am or what my experiences are, and when your own opinions seem to have been spoon fed to you by various others.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

right and if you were to take you're knowledge about drugs from the police, drug services and social services you'd come away imagining that people who take drugs are all especially vulnerable and self medicating a load of personal problems often involving abuse, what you wouldn't really get is the wider picture that millions of people do drugs week in week out without coming to the attention of such services.

I'm not saying that this is precisely applicable to the porn industry but the fact is that if you take your perspective from such services you are going to end up with a very skewed perspective.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> A big first step would be the complete decriminalization of sex work, so that it could come under the regular supervision and control that applies to things like physiotherapy or garage mechanics.


 
The   controls on the industry are quite strict anyway, things are vigorously checked and there's also  the AITA , a self regulatory board 
http://www.aita.co.uk/
Here is it's  voluntary code of practice 

_The Principles of the Code

These are the core principles of the AITA Code of Conduct

    * Members will conduct their business lawfully and comply with all relevant national and international laws
    * Members will behave at all times with integrity
    * Members will act responsibly and with care in the day-to-day conduct of their business.
    * Members will respect confidential information to which they may in the course of business become privy.
    * Members will adhere to the data Protection act and not disclose their customers to any other organisation unless by the express permission of the customer.
    * Members shall not knowingly misrepresent facts
    * Members will not mislead any customer or supplier concerning any aspects of the goods and services provided.
    * Members will market and advertise their products and services in a truthful manner.
    * Members will ensure their organisations comply with the Health and Safety Act.
    * Members will adhere to UK employment law.
    * Members will have clear terms and conditions of supply including fair delivery dates, cancellation rights, guarantees and warrantees, protection of deposits or prepayments, after sales service provisions and additional help to be provided to vulnerable consumers
    * Members must have in place speedy, responsive, accessible and user-friendly procedures for dealing with consumer complaints.
    * Members must not speak or imply that they speak on behalf of AITA unless they have the written authority of the chair or of some duly delegated individual or committee._


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## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> second hand from police, probation, drug / alcohol services and social services. not just one P.O
> 
> edgy and with it?
> 
> ...


 

ofcourse the state and it's armed wing the peelers don't have any front to uphold.

they certainly have nothing to gain from projecting an image of the sex and drug industries being inherently evil in a way that having a nice shitty respectable exploitative job isn't.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> right and if you were to take you're knowledge about drugs from the police, drug services and social services you'd come away imagining that people who take drugs are all especially vulnerable and self medicating a load of personal problems often involving abuse, what you wouldn't really get is the wider picture that millions of people do drugs week in week out without coming to the attention of such services.
> 
> I'm not saying that this is precisely applicable to the porn industry but the fact is that if you take your perspective from such services you are going to end up with a very skewed perspective.


 
Addicts ARE self medicating alaod of personal problems often involving abuse and mental health.

recreational use is much differant to addiction.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> ofcourse the state and it's armed wing the peelers don't have any front to uphold.
> 
> they certainly have nothing to gain from projecting an image of the sex and drug industries being inherently evil in a way that having a nice shitty respectable exploitative job isn't.


 
sexual abuse and drug addiction is worse than somebody having a crap job.

its not about projecting an image of anything, its about ex sex workers who have spoken up!

I'll ask again... how many ex female sex workers do you think would speak highly of the porn industry? you never answerd the first time round


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Addicts ARE self medicating alaod of personal problems often involving abuse and mental health.
> 
> recreational use is much differant to addiction.


 
and likewise some people do sex work for a few extra quid based because they have worked out it pays the bills better and not because they are psychologically damaged or coerced into it by predatory pimps or producers.

that is the only coercion necessary is that universal to all wage labour.

ofcourse the social services and police are less likely to bump into these people.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> sexual abuse and drug addiction is worse than somebody having a crap job.


 
but not all people who do porn have been sexually abused nor all people who take drugs have an addiction however I can see how one would come to conclusion that one automatically leads to the other if I was to take social services and the peelers as my primary source.


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Whatever. I take offence when someone accuses me of buying the party line from the television set, when first of all, you have no idea of who I am or what my experiences are, and when your own opinions seem to have been spoon fed to you by various others.


 
others who are closer to the reality of it than you perhaps?

ever since i brought up the point that abuse goes on you have shot it down over and over again with mostly bollox, i couldant give a flying fuck if your offended youve offended me repeatadly.


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> but not all people who do porn have been sexually abused nor all people who take drugs have an addiction however I can see how one would come to conclusion that one automatically leads to the other if I was to take social services and the peelers as my primary source.


 
for the 800th time .... *I NEVER SAID ALL PEOPLE!!!!!!!* 

do you think the sevices make it up? they get there info from ex sex workers... i suppose they are lying aswell? *shrug*

your an idiot


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes, it pays better. So does coke dealing.


 
but you need money to buy the coke that you wish to deal, and dealing is illegal... porn isnt.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> well yes it does actually since addiction leads to police, probation, drug / alcohol services and social services... and they all say the same thing i do, they convinced me of this opinion in the first place.
> 
> not to mention the addicts i used to hang with who would prostitue themselves for a hit... opening doors for pimps and onto the porn industry, some with kids, some without.


 
What it leads to, is to you having some personal experiences with marginal situations. There's value in that, but it doesn't mean that there aren't other ways to gain the same or similar information, without becoming a drug addict oneself.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> I'll ask again... how many ex female sex workers do you think would speak highly of the porn industry? you never answerd the first time round


 
How many mcdonalds burger flippers speak highly of the burger industry? I've dug ditches: I don't speak too highly of the labour industry.


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## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> for the 800th time .... *I NEVER SAID ALL PEOPLE!!!!!!!*
> 
> do you think the sevices make it up? they get there info from ex sex workers... i suppose they are lying aswell? *shrug*
> 
> your an idiot


 
your line of argument is that anyone who goes into porn is more exploited than someone in a McDonald's, call centre or chineese electronics factory.

ofcourse I don't think they make it up, why would I suggest that, they have no need to make anything up, my point is that by nature the contact these services have only paint one perspective and that is of very vulnerable people who have been victimised, it's certainly a truth and anyone who imagines that a massive industry on the margins of legality is free of such things is mental but it is not the whole truth anymore than addiction, coercion and vulnerability are the truth about drug use.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> others who are closer to the reality of it than you perhaps?.


 
I'll remind you again that you know squat about me.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'll remind you again that you know squat about me.


 
and you know squat about me


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> ever since i brought up the point that abuse goes on you have shot it down over and over again with mostly bollox, i couldant give a flying fuck if your offended youve offended me repeatadly.


 
If having someone disagree with what you think offends you, then a discussion bb maybe isnt' the place to be.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> and you know squat about me



You've said lots about drug addiction etc, and how your lifestyle puts you in contact with people in the know.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> but you need money to buy the coke that you wish to deal, and dealing is illegal... porn isnt.



Prostitution is in the UK. And there are a lot more prostitution sex workers than porn sex workers.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> your line of argument is that anyone who goes into porn is more exploited than someone in a McDonald's, call centre or chineese electronics factory.
> 
> ofcourse I don't think they make it up, why would I suggest that, they have no need to make anything up, my point is that by nature the contact these services have only paint one perspective and that is of very vulnerable people who have been victimised, it's certainly a truth and anyone who imagines that a massive industry on the margins of legality is free of such things is mental but it is not the whole truth anymore than addiction, coercion and vulnerability are the truth about drug use.


 
drug use and sex work are very closely linked. Drug use and mcd's arnt so closely linked.



> my point is that by nature the contact these services have only paint one perspective and that is of very vulnerable people who have been victimised


, 

I have not said at any point ever that the services version of the industry is the only version of it, i just said it exists.

And after i said it existed, ive met more resistance i think on this thread than my entire time at urban...(give or take), so if you cant let a simpleton like me post the fact that sex workers, in some cases, are abused, without resorting to page after page of childish bull shit, then i can only assume that your either taking the piss, or love ya porn soooo much that your instincts tell you to defend it.

Its my *humble opinion* that *some* people in porn are exploted more than somebody in a call centre etc...

You can walk out of a call centre.. you cant walk out of a brothel when ya tied to the bed being raped to pay off the pimps gambling debts (very extreame OTT scenario granted, but mcd's never let that happen did they?)

Im going to bed now and hopefully not have to retern to this poxy immature bunch of god knows whats that cant accept the follwing sentance.

"*some* people in porn are badly abused, more women are abused than men. A percentage of women in porn / sexwork are under the abuse of controlling men, there are many levals of abuse form minor to major, there is a very dark side to the industry"

FACT! 

(i now expect you will turn that on its head and start bangin on about how ive said 'all sex workers are abused' when i havant once said that)

You cant just say "fine, we all have an opinion and thats yours and hers mine" nooo you gotta twist the topic and the words you use into some kind of toddler like farse

good f*ckin night


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Prostitution is in the UK. And there are a lot more prostitution sex workers than porn sex workers.


 
porn is prostituation, selling ya body

ahhh i give up


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You've said lots about drug addiction etc, and how your lifestyle puts you in contact with people in the know.


 
errr, yea youve really got my number then havant you 

holy shit your wierd



> If having someone disagree with what you think offends you, then a discussion bb maybe isnt' the place to be.



it was your childlike baiting that offended me.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

> Do you think porn is inherently more exploitative than working in McDonalds?
> 
> 
> > Yes ffs they are selling there bodies. dont be so silly



Doesn't sit to well with 



> Its my opinion that some people in porn are exploted more than somebody in a call centre etc...



I mean if all you are arguing is that sex work as a marginalised/illegal industry is more likely to have seedy aspects to it including violent coercion and drug addiction and attract some of the most vulnerable and messed up, well only an idiot would argue against that, however you have consistently stretched your point further as obvious above.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

revol68 said:


> Doesn't sit to well with
> 
> 
> 
> I mean if all you are arguing is that sex work as a marginalised/illegal industry is more likely to have seedy aspects to it including violent coercion and drug addiction and attract some of the most vulnerable and messed up, well only an idiot would argue against that, however you have consistently stretched your point further as obvious above.


 
Imagine your mother or daughter in porn, just think about it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> , selling ya body


 
Yep. Having sex for money is 'selling your body'. Working in a coal mine is 'honest labour'. 

The christian party line - hook, line and sinker.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Imagine your mother or daughter in porn, just think about it.


 
there you go with your imagination again


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Imagine your mother or daughter in porn, just think about it.


 
One of the problems with it, is that most people don't like to visualize their mother or daughter having sex of any kind. If your mother and daughter are sex workers, it becomes that much harder to ignore.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> errr, yea youve really got my number then havant you
> 
> holy shit your wierd.


 
No, but by the same token, you don't have mine by a long shot.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Its my *humble opinion* that *some* people in porn are exploted more than somebody in a call centre etc...


 
Meth Lab post 10:


> Thats not actually true, *the women are mostly abused in some way*, the *ones that say they like it are just making sure they keep the job as they need food*, or worse...
> 
> watching porn doesant make you a bad person but at least think about it, how would you feel if it was ya mother or daughter in those things?? They make anal look common place but dont bother telling you about the muscle relaxants and anesthetics they have to use.
> 
> *porn is a dark industry*


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> "*some* people in porn are badly abused, more women are abused than men. A percentage of women in porn / sexwork are under the abuse of controlling men, there are many levals of abuse form minor to major, there is a very dark side to the industry"


 
And in other breaking news, The Pope has admitted he's a catholic. Now over to Dan who's in the forests of Alaska, trying to discover the defacatory habits of grizzlies.


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yep. Having sex for money is 'selling your body'. Working in a coal mine is 'honest labour'.
> 
> The christian party line - hook, line and sinker.


 
Im not a christian, but i do know the differance between right and wrong... and when grey area's lean towards wrong i can spot that to.

Your comparison of prostitution to other forms of work is like a child that repeats why... why..... why.... why.... why..... why..... why..... why..... why..... over and over and over again.

that kind of debate is not for me

p.s. of course working in a coal mine is shit, they are both very bad jobs... but this thread isnt about working in a coal mine is it?

Im talking about the exploitation of women, by men in the porn/prostituation bizz... and your talking about coal mining and mcd's??

peace


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Imagine your mother or daughter in porn, just think about it.


 
well  what if they did want to do it?  the problem with saying stuff like this is  it removes the rights of individual  from the equation

if my mother or daughter  wanted to be in porn  and  believed the type of pornography they were involved in was safe  then that is their business

automatic assumption of selling your body as being a bad thing negatively impacts on those who willingly  chose to do such things

as much as it is right  to worry about people safty and mental helth  you must take care  to  to  effectively  attack those who do such things of their own free will

every porn actor is someone's son or daughter  and possibly even a mother   how  does  your statement sound to them?


----------



## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Of course they have the right to do it, but would you be happy with it? Is any parent really happy with there son or daughter in porn? is any son or daugter happy with there mother in porn? Ide guess no.



> every porn actor is someone's son or daughter and possibly even a mother how does your statement sound to them?



I think its very unfortunate



> you must take care to to effectively attack those who do such things of their own free will



fair do's. Wassant my intention to attack anyone doing anything of there own free will, i t might have come accross like that last night... it was late and i was tired etc... many apologies.

peace


----------



## Edie (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB you have a good heart mate. You know, lots of women chose their path just like lots of the men do. But that doesn't clean up the fact that there are a significant number of the girls early into the shittier end of the industry who made bad choices along the way. When I was bang into the gear and sleeping rough in London I got offered and so did almost every other girl I knew. Like you know, hard drugs and hard sex go hand in hand and it can get fuckin confusing about where the choices start and end 

But don't let that blind you to the fact that some women do make a choice, that is can be a career, and that there's nothing wrong with that. There's money to be made mate. I reckon in the more professional porn industry there is probably no more than average addiction (and very little IV use). 

As for the anal thing, I dunno what to say other than WTF at the number of you who think it's somehow unusual


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Im not a christian, but i do know the differance between right and wrong... and when grey area's lean towards wrong i can spot that to.
> 
> Your comparison of prostitution to other forms of work is like a child that repeats why... why..... why.... why.... why..... why..... why..... why..... why..... over and over and over again.
> 
> ...


 
I'm talking about exploitation. Some people get exploited because they have strong backs. Some get exploited because they have big tits.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> fair do's. Wassant my intention to attack anyone doing anything of there own free will, i t might have come accross like that last night... it was late and i was tired etc... many apologies.
> 
> peace


 
To the extent that I was sarcastic etc toward you last night, I also apologize. I've always considered you to be one of the most chilled people on the boards, staying calm, not losing your temper for the most part. It didn't feel right, taking that tone with you - but sometimes, bad habits are hard to break.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 7, 2010)

Edie said:


> METH LAB you have a good heart mate. You know, lots of women chose their path just like lots of the men do. But that doesn't clean up the fact that there are a significant number of the girls early into the shittier end of the industry who made bad choices along the way. When I was bang into the gear and sleeping rough in London I got offered and so did almost every other girl I knew. Like you know, hard drugs and hard sex go hand in hand and it can get fuckin confusing about where the choices start and end
> 
> But don't let that blind you to the fact that some women do make a choice, that is can be a career, and that there's nothing wrong with that. There's money to be made mate. I reckon in the more professional porn industry there is probably no more than average addiction (and very little IV use).
> 
> As for the anal thing, I dunno what to say other than WTF at the number of you who think it's somehow unusual


 
Well said


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## METH LAB (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> To the extent that I was sarcastic etc toward you last night, I also apologize. I've always considered you to be one of the most chilled people on the boards, staying calm, not losing your temper for the most part. It didn't feel right, taking that tone with you - but sometimes, bad habits are hard to break.


 
I didnt like arguing with you either.

no hard feelings 

peace


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## trashpony (Oct 7, 2010)

Edie said:


> METH LAB you have a good heart mate. You know, lots of women chose their path just like lots of the men do. But that doesn't clean up the fact that there are a significant number of the girls early into the shittier end of the industry who made bad choices along the way. When I was bang into the gear and sleeping rough in London I got offered and so did almost every other girl I knew. Like you know, hard drugs and hard sex go hand in hand and it can get fuckin confusing about where the choices start and end
> 
> But don't let that blind you to the fact that some women do make a choice, that is can be a career, and that there's nothing wrong with that. There's money to be made mate. I reckon in the more professional porn industry there is probably no more than average addiction (and very little IV use).
> 
> As for the anal thing, I dunno what to say other than WTF at the number of you who think it's somehow unusual


 
I didn't say it was unusual. What I said was that children are learning about sex through porn rather than them learning about sex through exploring their own desires and then seeing porn as an adjunct to that. This discussion was supposed to be about juvenile access to porn (supposedly illegal) and about how  porn is forming a framework for how teenagers shape their sexuality. I think that puts massive pressure on young women to please their partners and equal pressure on young men to perform. Nothing anyone has said on this thread has persuaded me it's a good thing. 

And tbh I think the attacks on METH LAB when he is talking about his own experience is shameful. Just because it doesn't fit with what you want to be true doesn't mean it isn't. Of course he's going to come into contact with people who have been damaged but that is his reality. I don't know the percentage of sex workers who are exploited vs those who aren't. And I would suggest that none of us do. And pretending they doesn't exist does a real disservice to those women.

ETA: that last para wasn't aimed at you Edie. Was at the other posters on the thread


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

trashpony said:


> And tbh I think the attacks on METH LAB when he is talking about his own experience is shameful. Just because it doesn't fit with what you want to be true doesn't mean it isn't. Of course he's going to come into contact with people who have been damaged but that is his reality. I don't know the percentage of sex workers who are exploited vs those who aren't. And I would suggest that none of us do. And pretending they doesn't exist does a real disservice to those women.
> 
> . Was at the other posters on the thread


 
I'm one of the other posters on the thread, so I assume you're talking to me. 

Not sure just how much METH was 'attacked'; I think one of the points trying to be made, is that it's always difficult to generalize from one's own experience to the population at large.


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## spacemonkey (Oct 7, 2010)

trashpony said:


> This discussion was supposed to be about juvenile access to porn (supposedly illegal) and about how  porn is forming a framework for how teenagers shape their sexuality. I think that puts massive pressure on young women to please their partners and equal pressure on young men to perform.



There were a few people that seemed to think that increased porn viewing would also translate to increased violence against girls when they wouldn't 'do what they do in the pornos', so to speak. I think it's bollocks, but it does concern me if true.

I was hoping to get some better discussion around this, but nobody got back to me. What do you think?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2010)

Btw, don't want to point fingers or anything, but it was ... METH LAB... who derailed the thread into a generalized porn discussion, way back at around post 7 or 8.... 


Damn his eyes!


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## revol68 (Oct 7, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I didn't say it was unusual. What I said was that children are learning about sex through porn rather than them learning about sex through exploring their own desires and then seeing porn as an adjunct to that. This discussion was supposed to be about juvenile access to porn (supposedly illegal) and about how  porn is forming a framework for how teenagers shape their sexuality. I think that puts massive pressure on young women to please their partners and equal pressure on young men to perform. Nothing anyone has said on this thread has persuaded me it's a good thing.
> 
> And tbh I think the attacks on METH LAB when he is talking about his own experience is shameful. Just because it doesn't fit with what you want to be true doesn't mean it isn't. Of course he's going to come into contact with people who have been damaged but that is his reality. I don't know the percentage of sex workers who are exploited vs those who aren't. And I would suggest that none of us do. And pretending they doesn't exist does a real disservice to those women.
> 
> ETA: that last para wasn't aimed at you Edie. Was at the other posters on the thread


 
no one attacked or denied his 'experience', simply took issue at the confusion of these very real issues with the entire picture tied to a rather victorian attitude towards sexuality and work.

if you can find me one post where anyone denies the reality of the abuses he talked of feel free to post it up, otherwise stfu.


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## spacemonkey (Oct 7, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Btw, don't want to point fingers or anything, but it was ... METH LAB... who derailed the thread into a generalized porn discussion, way back at around post 7 or 8....
> 
> 
> Damn his eyes!



So he did. 

So, what _are_ the implications of increased porn consumption in young people? Anyone?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 8, 2010)

it made me the man i am today....


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> So he did.
> 
> So, what _are_ the implications of increased porn consumption in young people? Anyone?


 
My post 62



> I don't think kids are any more filthy-minded now than when we were young. I think it comes with the territory.



post 104



> Given the surge of hormones that happens after puberty, I'm not sure that many kids would want to be immune. There was lots of teenage pregnancy etc, before the advent of the computer.



etc. If you check back, you'll see that the original topic was being discussed along with this other topic.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 8, 2010)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> it made me the man i am today....


 
Captain Buttplug.


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## trashpony (Oct 8, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> There were a few people that seemed to think that increased porn viewing would also translate to increased violence against girls when they wouldn't 'do what they do in the pornos', so to speak. I think it's bollocks, but it does concern me if true.
> 
> I was hoping to get some better discussion around this, but nobody got back to me. What do you think?


 
There is a real scarcity of information but it does seem that there is a link between moving sex out of the realm of relationships and into pure physical desire which is not necessarily a good foundation for forming relationships in later life.



> In one study surveying 471 Dutch teens ages 13 to 18, the researchers found that the more often young people sought out online porn, the more likely they were to have a "recreational" attitude toward sex--specifically, to view sex as a purely physical function like eating or drinking.
> 
> In the study, reported in the December 2006 Journal of Communication (Vol. 56, No. 4, pages 639-660), the team also found a relationship between porn use and the feeling that it wasn't necessary to have affection for people to have sex with them. Boys were much more likely to hold these views than girls, and they tended to hold these attitudes more strongly when they perceived the material as realistic, the team found.
> 
> In a related study in the March issue of Sex Roles (Vol. 56, No. 5/6, pages 381-395), the Dutch team found a link between the type and explicitness of sexual media the teens saw and their tendency to view women as sexual "play things." The more explicit the material viewed, the more likely young people were to see women in these ways--and Internet movie porn was the only media type to show a statistically significant relationship, they found.



and



> Sue Maxwell, a psychosexual therapist at Relationship Scotland, said she felt young men were too often getting their sexual information from pornographic websites rather than the many "excellent" sites set up by the government.
> 
> She said: "Men are affected by internet sexuality more than women. Instead of developing a relationship based on thinking what do you want, what do I want,' they go for something that gives them another high and in to compulsive behaviour, seeking out another sexual experience more sexually enthralling than the previous one.



If that is true then that could certainly lend to more sexual violence against women. 

but that is anecdotal. Given it's illegal to watch porn under the age of 18, it's something that is difficult to perform any proper studies on.


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## sam/phallocrat (Oct 8, 2010)

misleading thread title


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 8, 2010)

trashpony;11128569

[I said:
			
		

> She said: "Men are affected by internet sexuality more than women. Instead of developing a relationship based on thinking what do you want, what do I want,' they go for something that gives them another high and in to compulsive behaviour, seeking out another sexual experience more sexually enthralling than the previous one.
> *If that is true then that could certainly lend to more sexual violence against women*.[/I]
> 
> 
> ...



you obviously have a very  low opinion of straight  men if you think they are so 
easily influenced by what they see in porn. I believe that most people are sensible enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. Also of course porn isn't just about men watching women, women and gay men make up a huge percentage of  porn consumers. I'm not condoning under 18s watching porn but as a gay man seeing  porn when I was a teenager certainly didn't do me any harm.


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## Gromit (Oct 8, 2010)

trashpony said:


> There is a real scarcity of information but it does seem that there is a link between moving sex out of the realm of relationships and into pure physical desire *which is not necessarily a good foundation for forming relationships in later life*.


 
Where is the evidence for this?

I personally know lots of people who went out and had as much sex as bloody possible when they were young.

Imagine my surprise when they all settled down and got married and had kids. 

Don't they know that they are supposed to be all fucked in the head for seeking sexual gratification instead of true love from day 1 goddammit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## spacemonkey (Oct 8, 2010)

trashpony said:


> There is a real scarcity of information but it does seem that there is a link between moving sex out of the realm of relationships and into pure physical desire which is not necessarily a good foundation for forming relationships in later life.


 
A blame the Romans for this personally. 



trashpony said:


> If that is true then that could certainly lend to more sexual violence against women.
> 
> but that is anecdotal. Given it's illegal to watch porn under the age of 18, it's something that is difficult to perform any proper studies on.


 
Thanks for posting at least some peer-reviewed research into the topic, but the number of people interviewed makes the study worthless IMO.


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## spacemonkey (Oct 8, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I believe that most people are sensible enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality.


 
Indeed. Have you ever read My Secret Garden? I remember picking that up accidently off my parents book shelf. 

Holy shit, the average person's fantasies make even the most extreme porn look quite vanilla.


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## trashpony (Oct 8, 2010)

sam/phallocrat said:


> misleading thread title



It was the name of a radio programme



dynamicbaddog said:


> you obviously have a very  low opinion of straight  men if you think they are so
> easily influenced by what they see in porn. I believe that most people are sensible enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. Also of course porn isn't just about men watching women, women and gay men make up a huge percentage of  porn consumers. I'm not condoning under 18s watching porn but as a gay man seeing  porn when I was a teenager certainly didn't do me any harm.


 
Not at all - I'm just reading around the subject and quoting what people have said they think the risks might be  I think it's different for young men now (the amount of porn available to children today is very different to when we were you) but don't have much time to think about this right now. Will get back to you later.


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## Edie (Oct 8, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> Indeed. Have you ever read My Secret Garden? I remember picking that up accidently off my parents book shelf.
> 
> Holy shit, the average person's fantasies make even the most extreme porn look quite vanilla.


Hahaha totally, or any of the McKinsey (?) reports or anything by Shere Hite. Made me feel a whole lot better about my fucked up sexual fantasies let me tell you 

Trashy I think you have a point. Young teenagers being exposed to very violent or extreme porn on a regular basis will probably affect their behaviour. Look at the affect of computer games on cortisol levels and empathy levels (and there's plenty of evidence for that). But it's on the extreme end of the scale.

End of that, what predicts violent behaviour is experiencing real life violence as a kid. And the effect of that drowns out everything else, and is very common.


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## METH LAB (Oct 8, 2010)

Abusive men will use porn in an abusive way (do what she does in the video you bitch! etc...) 
Of course they are a minority, i think the point i was trying to make from the word go,(rather badly it seems) is that some abusive men dont think they are being abusive, a person doesant have to beat and rape to be abusive, its about power and control. 

But everyone allready knows that i suppose.

peace


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## Edie (Oct 8, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Abusive men will use porn in an abusive way (do what she does in the video you bitch! etc...)
> Of course they are a minority, i think the point i was trying to make from the word go,(rather badly it seems) is that some abusive men dont think they are being abusive, a person doesant have to beat and rape to be abusive, its about power and control.
> 
> But everyone allready knows that i suppose.
> ...


I get what you're saying mate. You don't want derogative behaviour towards women normalised. That's fair enough. And TBH a lot of the 'mainstream' porn (all the dull as fuck group with tit wank>vaginal>anal>face shot) is always the same old story and isn't great for women anyway.

Come the day when there are more female porn directors, more subtlety and a leeeeetle bit more class.


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## spacemonkey (Oct 8, 2010)

Edie said:


> End of that, what predicts violent behaviour is experiencing real life violence as a kid. And the effect of that drowns out everything else, and is very common.



That's a good point and can probably be applied to sex. I would suggest (as the book I mentioned also suggests) that your attitudes and fantasies are heavily shaped by what you experience as a young kid. _Almost_ all the really fucked up fantasy's (beastiality, gangrape, incest etc) were linked to something that happened at a young age.

If you had a 'normal' childhood, then watching porn even at a relatively young age (10-15 say) is unlikely to shape your ideas of sex to any great extent. Likewise if you experience anything traumatic, that is likely to drown everything else out.

I feel a bit out of my depth talking about this stuff and fully expect my shoddy theories to be torn apart.


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## trashpony (Oct 8, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> That's a good point and can probably be applied to sex. I would suggest (as the book I mentioned also suggests) that your attitudes and fantasies are heavily shaped by what you experience as a young kid. _Almost_ all the really fucked up fantasy's (beastiality, gangrape, incest etc) were linked to something that happened at a young age.
> 
> If you had a 'normal' childhood, then watching porn even at a relatively young age (10-15 say) is unlikely to shape your ideas of sex to any great extent. Likewise if you experience anything traumatic, that is likely to drown everything else out.
> 
> I feel a bit out of my depth talking about this stuff and fully expect my shoddy theories to be torn apart.


 
I think there's a huge difference between fantasies and porn. I fantasise about all sorts of shit that there is no fucking way I'd want to happen in real life. I don't know whether that's the same for men or if that's just women but I think with, for example, rape fantasies, you are in control of the fantasy whereas obviously you're not in real life.

DBD - I will get back to you on your earlier post. Got to put my (absolutely gorgeous and seemingly het) son to bed


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## trashpony (Oct 8, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> you obviously have a very  low opinion of straight  men if you think they are so
> easily influenced by what they see in porn. *I believe that most people are sensible enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. *Also of course porn isn't just about men watching women, women and gay men make up a huge percentage of  porn consumers. I'm not condoning under 18s watching porn but as a gay man seeing  porn when I was a teenager certainly didn't do me any harm.


 
Just quickly, this is the bit that I'm not sure about. There is (anecdotal) evidence that young people's expectations of what sex should be like is shaped by early exposure to porn. And for the timebeing, I'd really like to put gay porn on one side because I don't think the power relationships are the same as they are in straight porn. Women are available and gagging for you in porn. Their pleasure is largely put to one side - it's on the whole about pleasing the man (or men). That's the issue. If that's how you think sex should be (and in the absence of any decent sex education then what else have you got to go on?) then that is setting up a really fucked up dynamic between men and women. And yes, I do believe that could lead to sexual violence (and I'm so fucked off that you said I had a low opinion of men, given that you know me I actually find it really upsetting). I am not saying that watching porn leads to sexual violence at all. I'm saying that *if*, as a presexual person, your entire understanding of what sex should be about is in scenarios where women get cocks shoved down their throats, up their arses and cum splattered all over their faces by 15 men at once, you just might have a bit of a warped view of what real sex is actually like.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I am not saying that watching porn leads to sexual violence at all. I'm saying that *if*, as a presexual person, your entire understanding of what sex should be about is in scenarios where women get cocks shoved down their throats, up their arses and cum splattered all over their faces by 15 men at once, you just might have a bit of a warped view of what real sex is actually like.


 
When I was a kid, there was no internet. We were  pretty happy getting our hands on a Sears catalogue, or - way better once it came out - a Cosmopolitan magazine. Arguably the Sears catalogue and Cosmo might cause impressionable youngsters to form a warped view of the world as well.

Tbh, I think that how a child will eventually handle interpersonal relationships, is determined a lot earlier than that, by learning from familial relationships. Obviously not sex per se, but a propensity to using violence and aggression to solve problems or get one's way, for instance.


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## trashpony (Oct 8, 2010)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> When I was a kid, there was no internet. We were  pretty happy getting our hands on a Sears catalogue, or - way better once it came out - a Cosmopolitan magazine. Arguably the Sears catalogue and Cosmo might cause impressionable youngsters to form a warped view of the world as well.
> 
> Tbh, I think that how a child will eventually handle interpersonal relationships, is determined a lot earlier than that, by learning from familial relationships. Obviously not sex per se, but a propensity to using violence and aggression to solve problems or get one's way, for instance.


 
Me neither - looking at the centrefolds of playboy was as exciting as it got and I had *no idea* what a naked man looked like because they were never in the photos  I agree that a child's upbringing plays a huge part. But learning what sex 'should' be like through porn isn't going to help a child from a less stable background. Or any of them. Kids filming themselves shagging a schoolmate and then passing it around the school speaks of a certain level of disassociation doesn't it? 

And it's not just our kids. We might like to think we've brought them up to have a good degree of respect for other people but the fact is that they are going to encounter a load of more fucked up ones on their travels. So a defence of 'well my kids are ok' really doesn't wash (am not saying that's what you're saying at all)


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 8, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Just quickly, this is the bit that I'm not sure about. There is (anecdotal) evidence that young people's expectations of what sex should be like is shaped by early exposure to porn. And for the timebeing, I'd really like to put gay porn on one side because I don't think the power relationships are the same as they are in straight porn. Women are available and gagging for you in porn. Their pleasure is largely put to one side - it's on the whole about pleasing the man (or men). That's the issue. If that's how you think sex should be (and in the absence of any decent sex education then what else have you got to go on?) then that is setting up a really fucked up dynamic between men and women. And yes, I do believe that could lead to sexual violence (and *I'm so fucked off that you said I had a low opinion of men, given that you know me I actually find it really upsetting*). I am not saying that watching porn leads to sexual violence at all. I'm saying that *if*, as a presexual person, your entire understanding of what sex should be about is in scenarios where women get cocks shoved down their throats, up their arses and cum splattered all over their faces by 15 men at once, you just might have a bit of a warped view of what real sex is actually like.


sorry I did'nt meant to upset you, I just thought the tone of that survey you quoted seemed anti-men. but I shouldn't have put that to you in such a sharp way.
 I do agree with you that children, especially pre-teen children shouldn't be watching porn. Porn is adult entertainment and not designed to serve as sex education. Dunno what the answer is tho, some people in the porn industry (and at the end of the day, those  are the best people to consult on these matters) have suggested lowering the age porn is allowed to be viewed to 16 and then putting all internet porn behind paywallls - not sure how that can be enforced but that  does seem the best solution so far. Whatever you do tho, I doubt that porn can be kept  away from kids entirely...


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## trashpony (Oct 8, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> sorry I did'nt meant to upset you, I just thought the tone of that survey you quoted seemed anti-men. but I shouldn't have put that to you in such a sharp way.
> I do agree with you that children, especially pre-teen children shouldn't be watching porn. Porn is adult entertainment and not designed to serve as sex education. Dunno what the answer is tho, some people in the porn industry (and at the end of the day, those  are the best people to consult on these matters) have suggested lowering the age porn is allowed to be viewed to 16 and then putting all internet porn behind paywallls - not sure how that can be enforced but that  does seem the best solution so far. Whatever you do tho, I doubt that porn can be kept  away from kids entirely...


 
Thank you. I'm not at all anti-men, nor am I anti-porn. But I worry about teenagers/pre-teens watching it (and apparently 90% of children have watched some by the age of 12) which I find a bit scary. 16 year olds are very different to 10 or 11 year olds. There was a girl who died this week from stress because she was bullied because she was so naive about sex. She was nine. Nine FFS.

If the Chinese can keep most of the internet from most of its population, then surely it's not beyond our wit to enforce paywalls? That's what I would like to see happen. Less pushing, more pull.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 8, 2010)

I was reading a Paul Theroux travel book describing part of his journey through Japan. He was sitting on a crowded high speed train and a teenage girl got on and sat next to him. She had her ipod on and was reading a comic book and ignored the old American guy sat next to her. After a while she got up to go to the toilet and he couldn't resist having a peek at the book she was reading. He was a bit taken aback at the extreme sexual nature of the cartoon drawings inside and quickly put it back down. It made him wonder a lot about Japanese culture.


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## Agent Sparrow (Oct 11, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> Thanks for posting at least some peer-reviewed research into the topic, but the number of people interviewed makes the study worthless IMO.


 The one with a sample of 471? Disagree with the findings if you want, but 471 is not a bad number for new research in an area, and whilst it's important to be careful in regards to generalisation, it's certainly not worthless. It's certainly more empirical than the personal, anecdotal experience that often drives these discussions.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 11, 2010)

trashpony said:


> Me neither - looking at the centrefolds of playboy was as exciting as it got and I had *no idea* what a naked man looked like because they were never in the photos  I agree that a child's upbringing plays a huge part. But learning what sex 'should' be like through porn isn't going to help a child from a less stable background. Or any of them. Kids filming themselves shagging a schoolmate and then passing it around the school speaks of a certain level of disassociation doesn't it?
> 
> And it's not just our kids. We might like to think we've brought them up to have a good degree of respect for other people but the fact is that they are going to encounter a load of more fucked up ones on their travels. So a defence of 'well my kids are ok' really doesn't wash (am not saying that's what you're saying at all)


 
Yeah, Playboy was good. True there were no men in there, but the women that were  there, weren't totally real either. All the imperfections were airbrushed out of the photos. They had beautifully hued, flawless skin, and their pubic hair was demure and perfect as the covering on a well-raised peach. Talk about creating unrealistic expectations. 

You know, I kind of know where you're coming from: there seems to be something not right about such a massive exposure to porn. But then I think back and realize: young boys at least, were masturbating furiously every day, maybe twice a day, way back when. And what are they doing now? Masturbating furiously, except now they have to do it sitting up, with a computer screen in front of them. At least in the old days, you could lie down with the Sears catalogue. 

I think the thing that's wrong  about it, isn't just about porn, but with the fact that people are finding less and less reason to go out and interact with one another. They don't need to go out to shop, to work, to do whatever. Internet porn just creates another area where one can stay home but still get what one needs - although not really.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 11, 2010)

trashpony said:


> And it's not just our kids. We might like to think we've brought them up to have a good degree of respect for other people but the fact is that they are going to encounter a load of more fucked up ones on their travels. So a defence of 'well my kids are ok' really doesn't wash (am not saying that's what you're saying at all)


 
I think what you're trying to do, is to see children sheltered from harm. That's a good thing. But harm has always  been there in abundance. I think what you're saying above, is that although your or my kid may get a balanced view of sex, they might run into others who are warped.

Yes, they might. But think about it. How many fucked up - sexually or otherwise - men have you ran into in your life? Most of us run into a ton of fucked-up people. And for people of our age, they all got fucked up without benefit of the internet. Other things fucked them up - fucked lots of them up.

I don't know if the internet will increase the amount of fucked-up-edness in the world; or if it will just mean some slightly different fucked-up-edness.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 11, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> I was reading a Paul Theroux travel book describing part of his journey through Japan. He was sitting on a crowded high speed train and a teenage girl got on and sat next to him. She had her ipod on and was reading a comic book and ignored the old American guy sat next to her. After a while she got up to go to the toilet and he couldn't resist having a peek at the book she was reading. He was a bit taken aback at the extreme sexual nature of the cartoon drawings inside and quickly put it back down. It made him wonder a lot about Japanese culture.


 
I think that's a scene out of 'Lost In Translation'.


It shouldn't have made him wonder about Japanese culture. It should have made him wonder about our culture. In Japan, they don't get as angsted-out about things sexual, the way we do. They've got all those violent and sexual comics etc etc etc. And their sexual assault and murder rates are very low, and ours are very high. Their cities are safe to walk in at night, and our aren't.


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## ymu (Oct 11, 2010)

METH LAB said:


> Do any women on this thread think im being patronising? if so i will certianly take that on board like and eat my hat.
> 
> peace


 
No. I think you're guilty of over-generalising, but you acknowledged that yourself. As usual in these sorts of threads we've been treated to pages and pages of men arguing about what the sex industry is like for women. You may have been guilty of exaggerating the problems, but that's a helluva lot better than trying to trivialise them. 

It should be blatantly obvious that a women is at greater risk of physical injury on a porn shoot than a man, even before you remember that it's usually one woman and several men, and that she's often taking two or more of them at the same time, and that those men generally have unusually large cocks, and that female porn stars tend to make many, many more films than male porn stars.

It should also be blatantly obvious that women are easier to exploit in this way than men. Male drug addicts tend to rob people or businesses for their next fix. Women tend to turn tricks. And women are also at a greater economic disadvantage than men. The EHRC report that came out today reports that the pay gap is 16%, but much more importantly, that the size of the pay gap depends on the level of education. For women with degrees/professional qualifications who decide to have children the gap is about 4% of their lifetime salary. For women without degrees it's about 58%. That's a huge difference in economic conscription between men and women right there.

The other huge difference is that there is more of a physical limit on how much men can perform - the ability to keep it up for a long time and repeat the performance quickly is much sought after. Women can just be pounded and pounded for as long as there are men and dildos available on set.

Trashy said it all here, really:



trashpony said:


> I didn't say it was unusual. What I said was that children are learning about sex through porn rather than them learning about sex through exploring their own desires and then seeing porn as an adjunct to that. This discussion was supposed to be about juvenile access to porn (supposedly illegal) and about how  porn is forming a framework for how teenagers shape their sexuality. I think that puts massive pressure on young women to please their partners and equal pressure on young men to perform. Nothing anyone has said on this thread has persuaded me it's a good thing.
> 
> And tbh I think the attacks on METH LAB when he is talking about his own experience is shameful. Just because it doesn't fit with what you want to be true doesn't mean it isn't. Of course he's going to come into contact with people who have been damaged but that is his reality. I don't know the percentage of sex workers who are exploited vs those who aren't. And I would suggest that none of us do. And pretending they doesn't exist does a real disservice to those women.
> 
> ETA: that last para wasn't aimed at you Edie. Was at the other posters on the thread







spacemonkey said:


> Thanks for posting at least some peer-reviewed research into the topic, but the number of people interviewed makes the study worthless IMO.


As Agent Sparrow said, 471 is not a bad sample size at all, especially for a single study. It's bigger than most regulatory RCTs conducted by the pharmaceutical industry in order to get a licence to sell their overpriced poisons, and bigger than most of the trials NICE ever has available to try and judge whether they do enough good to justify the cost and the poisoning.


Back to the topic of the OP, I think there probably is an effect. That's not the same as saying that it has the same effect on all teenagers, of course, but an awful lot of porn - certainly free porn - seems to focus on a huge disrespect for the women involved. I caught summat on the radio about this recently - a massive rise in the number of boys who want to come on a girl's face. Why? Why on earth would this be popular unless it was down to porn?

It's really hard to generalise across generations, but anecdotally gang rape does seem to be a more regular occurrence amongst teenagers now than when I was a kid, and a lot of the girls who hang around with the gangs seem to accept it as the price of their membership, with some being willing accomplices in the rape of other girls. I find that incredibly hard to comprehend, and whilst it's unlikely that there is any single societal cause, and it's very hard to prove causation from correlation, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to suggest that internet porn is changing the boundaries of "thinkable thought" and teenage perceptions of what is normal, at least in the context of casual sex.


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## spacemonkey (Oct 11, 2010)

Agent Sparrow said:


> The one with a sample of 471? Disagree with the findings if you want, but 471 is not a bad number for new research in an area, and whilst it's important to be careful in regards to generalisation, it's certainly not worthless. It's certainly more empirical than the personal, anecdotal experience that often drives these discussions.


 
Fair enough, worthless was a bit strong. I've yet to see anything that suggests increased porn consumption is resulting in increased violence against girls though. 

Some posters (at the beginning of this thread) seemed to suggest that there was loads of empirical evidence that I wasn't taking into consideration. I don't see it.



ymu said:


> I caught summat on the radio about this recently - a massive rise in the number of boys who want to come on a girl's face. Why? Why on earth would this be popular unless it was down to porn?



I guess this was based on some sort of survey, any ideas where I can find it? Even if it is true, does that mean the end result is violence?


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## trashpony (Oct 11, 2010)

spacemonkey said:


> Fair enough, worthless was a bit strong. I've yet to see anything that suggests increased porn consumption is resulting in increased violence against girls though.
> 
> Some posters (at the beginning of this thread) seemed to suggest that there was loads of empirical evidence that I wasn't taking into consideration. I don't see it.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think you understand the very close link between emotional and physical abuse. if you accept that there is some merit in the research that watching a lot of porn as a pre-sexual person can lead to boys treating girls as sexual objects (which I think you said you sort of accepted) then presumably you accept the (very widely held) view that treating women as objects sexually can often be a precursor to physical violence. Use of force or disrespect for a woman's wishes (cumming on her face against her will for example) is considered a 'red flag' for DV. 

What do you want really? Loads of empirical evidence for teenagers watching porn? I've already explained to you why it doesn't exist. 

No one is saying it absolutely does lead to violence but that it can exacerbate the propensity towards it. Can you not see how seeing another human being as an object to do your bidding in the bedroom might bleed into other areas of your relationship?


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