# formal meeting/disciplinary, scared, what are my rights?



## miss direct (Jun 18, 2007)

I've been summoned to a formal meeting at work about my performance at 8am on Thursday. 

Really dreading it. It's not my first formal meeting and I am scared I will 1) get sacked, 2) start crying and not be able to stand up for myself or 3) some unknown terrible thing. 

I wish I could get it over and done with, instead of having it hang over me until Thursday, I am a big worrier and won't be able to relax. 

I thought I could use the time between now and then to prepare..it will be me and two bosses, I think I will just fall to pieces. 

I'm not in a union, but can anyone give me some assistance?


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## Kanda (Jun 18, 2007)

You are usually allowed to take in a representative of your own for moral support or whatever. Do you have someone that you work with that could help you in this?


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## miss direct (Jun 18, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> You are usually allowed to take in a representative of your own for moral support or whatever. Do you have someone that you work with that could help you in this?



Well the meeting is at 8am, earlier than the usual start time, so no.  I am the only trainee in that office, the other guy is a patronising git and would just love to hear me being told off, so no chance of asking him.


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 18, 2007)

As suggested, ask if you can take someone with you.

In the time between now and then, consider anything you have been given which indicates the identified weaknesses in your performance, and what you have done to address these. Also, considering what support, if any, you have been given by the employers in order to address any weaknesses.

Do you accept that there are performance issues?

Also consider whethere there is any mitigation - i.e. good reason for the performance issues. Has your ability to do your job been affected by something else? 

Sorry, but I can't offer any more assistance - am at work, and trying to help my union members with similar problems!

Good luck, and do try and find someone to come in with you....


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## bikergrrl (Jun 18, 2007)

You do normally have the right to bring someone with you, even if they are not a Union Rep, or if you are not a member of any Union.

I don’t think they’ll be sacking you… if you are a permanent employee and past any probationary period they are set, then they can’t usually fire you unless what you have done is counted as “gross misconduct” in the company manual.

If you are on a probationary period or not a permanent employee, then I’m not so sure.

What kind of company is it? Most companies would rather improve the employees they have, rather than sacking them and getting in a new person who is completely unknown to them.

What is your “relationship” to these bosses? Do you work directly with them? If not, how have they found out about these “performance issues”? Is the person that’s telling them likely to be exaggerating for some reason?

Overall, I’d say don’t worry too much… apologise if you genuinely have done something wrong, but explain any mitigating circumstances to them. If you didn’t know you weren’t allowed to wear lilac ties on Tuesdays, then it’s hardly your fault. (Although I highly recommend _not_ saying it like that! Try “I’m sorry, but I wasn’t aware of that rule.”)

Stand your ground too; don’t just look forlorn and silent if they are telling you off for something you know you haven’t done.


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## sojourner (Jun 18, 2007)

Get in touch with ACAS.  You should already have a copy of the disciplinary procedure though.  If you haven't, or haven't been told about it, they are on dodgy ground and you could appeal against any decision they might make

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=864


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## miss direct (Jun 18, 2007)

I don't really know who I would ask to go in with me, especially at 8am, so looks like I will have to do it alone. 

I know I have made some mistakes in my work and got a few things wrong but I also do a lot of things right and never get any credit for them (that's how it feels anyhow). 

There aren't really any mitigating circumstances..apart from being demoralised, stressed, underpaid and hating my job. I feel under a lot of pressure to churn out work as we are understaffed, so time for checking work is at a minimum, but I KNOW I should check all work thoroughly. 

I do work directly with the bosses, so some of the stuff they have seen for themselves. 

I'm going to try and find my company manule tonight to see what the disciplinary procedure is. I had a meeting a few months ago which apparently counted as formal and was given a chance to improve. 

How many formal meetings do you get about performance before being given no more chances? 

I also don't know all the things they are going to bring up at the meeting, do I have a right to know beforehand or can they just spring things on me there and then?

Thanks for all advice.


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## Kanda (Jun 18, 2007)

Last time I was summoned to something like this it was put in writing, detailing the issues to be discussed.

Thats all documented in our policy though, not sure if that is the same for every company.


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## bikergrrl (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> How many formal meetings do you get about performance before being given no more chances?



Normally it goes Oral Recorded Warning, Written Warning, Final Written Warning before they can sack you. Each stage of the warnings are given a certain amount of months to expire, normally about 6, so it's not strictly three strikes and you're out.

Explain to them how you're feeling (except about hating the job possibly) they might be more sympathetic than you think.


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## sojourner (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> How many formal meetings do you get about performance before being given no more chances?


Read the link, it'll have it all on there


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## miss direct (Jun 18, 2007)

Had a look and the last telling off I got was in the middle of March. I'm not sure if that was formal or not. They said something formal would be written down, but all I recieved was a typed page about things I would have to do, eg sit next to boss, have weekly progress meetings, and NONE of those things ever happened.


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> I don't really know who I would ask to go in with me, especially at 8am, so looks like I will have to do it alone.
> 
> I know I have made some mistakes in my work and got a few things wrong but I also do a lot of things right and never get any credit for them (that's how it feels anyhow).
> 
> ...



If you could find someone to support you at a different time, ask for the meeting to be rescheduled to another time. You have the right to do that.

You say that there are no mitigating circumstances, but then list some mitigating circumstances! Emphasise these aspects, getting evidence of overwork/tight deadlines etc. if possible.

Also get evidence together of when things have gone well and you have done things right, and put that to them at the meeting, too.

How long have you worked for them?

You say that you have already had a meeting, and been given an opportunity to improve. Were you given any specific pointers of what needed to be improved and how to reach that level? Were you given advice on training or other support which would be available to help you?

ACAS can only help on procedure/process, and it sounds like your employer may already know that aspect. You may need to seek advice from a Citizens Advice Bureau or Law Centre, but that may only be needed at the next stage, if your employers announce their intention to dismiss, which I am assuming they haven't yet done?


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## Badgers (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> Had a look and the last telling off I got was in the middle of March. I'm not sure if that was formal or not. They said something formal would be written down, but all I recieved was a typed page about things I would have to do, eg sit next to boss, have weekly progress meetings, and NONE of those things ever happened.



This is good.... 

Any formal disciplinary will need to be managed correctly by the manager or HR person handling this. If you have previously been given a warning but not been told it was an official warning or been given written confirmation of the meeting they may not have followed a correct disciplinary procedure. 

What I would do now: 

1. Ask for a copy of your employee file which you are entitled to do. 

2. Check said file for all documentation and take any photocopies you need. 

3. Make notes about the previous meeting/s and what was said. You need to ensure who was tasked with monitoring your ongoing performance (you or your boss) 

Has the company offered you adequate training to fulfil your role? 

Can you 'map' your working week so you can identify whether you are unable to complete the tasks (training issue?) or simply that you have too many tasks?


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## EastEnder (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> There aren't really any mitigating circumstances..apart from being demoralised, stressed, underpaid and hating my job. I feel under a lot of pressure to churn out work as we are understaffed, so time for checking work is at a minimum, but I KNOW I should check all work thoroughly.


Do you consider it possible/plausible that measures could be taken to change the way you feel about the job - i.e., is it likely that your bosses would suggest, or be amenable to suggestions of, things that would address why you hate the job and  are (allegedly) not performing adequately?

If this is a 2nd formal procedure, I'm pretty sure they can't fire you yet. So whatever happens, you should still be employed there for the time being. Do you want to stay there? If your bosses have genuine reason to be dissatisfied with your work, then obviously that needs to be addressed - which might include you telling them where they're going wrong (in a polite, professional manner, of course).

How do you feel about the job in general?


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## Space Girl (Jun 18, 2007)

surely if they are trying to take you down the capability route (which it seems they are) then they have to show that they have put measures in place to assist you perform as the level they require you to - have they done this or have they just told you off and then left you to it?


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 18, 2007)

EastEnder said:
			
		

> Do you consider it possible/plausible that measures could be taken to change the way you feel about the job - i.e., is it likely that your bosses would suggest, or be amenable to suggestions of, things that would address why you hate the job and  are (allegedly) not performing adequately?
> 
> If this is a 2nd formal procedure, I'm pretty sure they can't fire you yet. So whatever happens, you should still be employed there for the time being. Do you want to stay there? If your bosses have genuine reason to be dissatisfied with your work, then obviously that needs to be addressed - which might include you telling them where they're going wrong (in a polite, professional manner, of course).
> 
> How do you feel about the job in general?



Whether or not they can dismiss yet is related at least in part to how long you have been employed. If you have got less than 12 months in post, they can fairly dismiss you simply for failing a probationary period.

There is a statutory dismissal procedure, which is the minimum that any employer has to follow, but, so long as they do follow this procedure, they CAN dismiss someone for performance issues.

Sorry.


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## EastEnder (Jun 18, 2007)

Guineveretoo said:
			
		

> Whether or not they can dismiss yet is related at least in part to how long you have been employed. If you have got less than 12 months in post, they can fairly dismiss you simply for failing a probationary period.


I'm 

Wouldn't that imply a 12 month probationary period? At my company there's a standard 3 month probationary period during which, as I understand it, it's possible to fire someone relatively easily (and equally, I believe the employee can resign without giving notice). After that, I assumed all the usual mechanisms came into play? Are you saying that it's still different in the 4-12 month stage?


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 18, 2007)

What I am saying is that, unless you have 12 months service, you cannot go to an employment tribunal if you are dismissed, unless you can demonstrate that dismissal was because of your race, gender, disability etc., or if it was to deprive you of a legal right.

Therefore, employers can sack someone for virtually any reason they like, including performance weaknesses, in the first 12 months, and there is no comeback.


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## miss direct (Jun 18, 2007)

I have been with the company for 1 year and 8 months. But the first 5 months were in-house training.


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 18, 2007)

So long as you have over a year, they have to apply the statutory dismissal procedure as a minimum, before they can dismiss. They need to follow the same procedure in a formal disciplinary/performance situation, too.

There are 3 steps to the procedure, which are detailed below. But my advice is as before - focus on your "defence", including mitigation.

*1. Statement of grounds for action and invitation to a meeting*
The employer must send the employee a written statement setting out the reasons why they are considering dismissing or disciplining the employee, (for example the alleged misconduct; the reasons why the employer thinks an employee is not doing their job properly; or the reasons why the employer is proposing to make the employee redundant or not to renew their fixed term contract).
The employer must invite the employee to a meeting to discuss the issue.

*2. The meeting*
The employer must hold a meeting to discuss the reasons why they are considering disciplining or dismissing the employee
The employee has the right to be accompanied at the meeting.
The employee should have had a reasonable opportunity to consider their response to the employer’s statement before the meeting. The employer must have informed the employee of the basis of any allegations or reasons why the employer is considering disciplining or dismissing the employee. No dismissal or disciplinary action should take place before the meeting.
The meeting should be organised at a reasonable time and in a convenient location and both the employer and the employee must take all reasonable steps to attend. The employee must be given the opportunity to state their case at the meeting.
After the meeting the employer must inform the employee about the decision and of their right to appeal if they are not satisfied it.

*3. The appeal*
If the employee chooses to appeal, they must inform the employer who must invite them to a further meeting.
The employee has the right to be accompanied and both the employer and employee must take all reasonable steps to attend this meeting.
The appeal meeting need not take place before any dismissal or sanction takes effect. Where possible, the appeal should be dealt with by a more senior manager than attended the first meeting (unless the most senior manager attended the first meeting).
After the meeting the employer must inform the employee of their final decision.


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## miss direct (Jun 18, 2007)

Ok. I'm trying to imagine the worst that could happen: ie, I get told over and over again how shit I am, I end up crying and then get the sack. 

If someone is sacked, it's generally immediate isn't it? I've already been told I am working in another office on Friday, Monday and Tuesday of next week, so I doubt they would tell me that if they were planning on sacking me straight away. 

I'm so scared of being sacked. I'm not 25 yet so I would probably lose my flat and have no savings and don't think I'd be able to get another job after being sacked. I'm such a worrier :-(


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## keicar (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> If someone is sacked, it's generally immediate isn't it? I've already been told I am working in another office on Friday, Monday and Tuesday of next week, so I doubt they would tell me that if they were planning on sacking me straight away.



It's unlikely they would go to that trouble if they were going to sack you 

I wonder if they are planning on moving you to another role you might find easier.......


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## chilango (Jun 18, 2007)

You say its "to discuss your performance"?

Is it definately a disciplinery?

Or...are yer bosses under pressure from _their _bosses to up performance in their sector so are holding meetings like this to tick the relevent box to cover their own asses?

Could be they see  pushing you as a way to try and improve their own results?


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## EastEnder (Jun 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> Ok. I'm trying to imagine the worst that could happen: ie, I get told over and over again how shit I am, I end up crying and then get the sack.


It sounds like you may have some inkling as to the kind of things they might say. IMHO, although it's easy to say and hard to do, you should try to be as dispassionate as possible. I'd suggest making a list of all the issues you think they may raise, and try to come up with a reasonable explanation/rebuke for each. You mentioned that you're understaffed, if this is the case then it should be some justification for not hitting deadlines or making mistakes. And what about suggestions for change? If there's a genuine problem, and it's not just the bosses being unreasonable, then ideally you want to be able to suggest how you're going to address the issues, not just concede the status quo. And if at all possible, I'd take advantage of your right to have someone else present - it really sounds like you need the support.


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## winterinmoscow (Jun 18, 2007)

Loads of good advice on this thread.

I don't know a huge amount about this personally, but I remember a friend going through something very similar recently. I spent a lot of time going through with her the postive things she'd done, for things she felt she hadn't so good about, why this had happened and what might be picked up on. We talked through mitigating circumstances/the kind of support she had been receiving.

I guess the only thing to say is to really think through as much as possible, things you think might come up, which has largely already been said.

Frankly I would feel terrified going into a meeting like that and would definitley worry I'd get really really upset and not be able to speak coherently. Make a lot of notes and take them in with you, they will really help when you're under pressure! 

Also, I spend a lot of time representing people in court and I would always advise someone going into a really pressured situation is just really take your time to think through the answer. This sounds really really obvious but I always try to pause a bit longer than normal before answering if I feel under pressure

Good luck and please let us know how it goes


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## miss direct (Jun 20, 2007)

I've spent the last hour writing up pages of notes to take in with me. I should be working, but as I am covering a meeting tonight till 10pm, I won't have much of a chance to defend myself otherwise, as meeting is at 8am. 

I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight.


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## bikergrrl (Jun 20, 2007)

They expect you to cover a meeting until 10pm and then be in work at 8am? That's shocking... I'd insist on the time being changed just so I'd be able to get enough sleep!


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## miss direct (Jun 20, 2007)

bikergrrl said:
			
		

> They expect you to cover a meeting until 10pm and then be in work at 8am? That's shocking... I'd insist on the time being changed just so I'd be able to get enough sleep!



This is something that happens a lot, Monday I didn't get in from work till 11pm. No wonder I make mistakes. 

TBH I just want to get it out of the way now though.


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## bikergrrl (Jun 20, 2007)

That's ridiculous... no wonder you are making mistakes all the time! I'd point out the long hours as mitigating circumstances too, if I were you.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 20, 2007)

miss direct
good luck tomorrow
you can always ask for more time to think about something
it sounds like they are on really dodgey ground from some of the things you've said about proceedures or lack of them and all the stress / unrealistic demands and timescales you are working under.

I went through a similar time about 18 months ago -  I left and am in a much more rewarding job now - I didn't know what I was going to do at the time and things have worked out so much better than I could have imagined.

a poster above alluded to managers usually being under stress from their line managers - they cover their backs and pass down poor management.  Stand up to them in a professional way - reschedule meetings when (reasonably) they suit you and you can have people(outside of your workplace) with you

you could even go in tomorrow and say that you are only attending this meeting to inform them of your intention to meet with them again when you have an observer with you....
empower yourself in ways that you can

I don't know where you live - there might be other more rewarding jobs in your area with less unrealistic demands and stress?
fingers crossed.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 21, 2007)

Hope it went OK Missdirect


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## keicar (Jun 21, 2007)

bikergrrl said:
			
		

> They expect you to cover a meeting until 10pm and then be in work at 8am? That's shocking...



And illegal  

You are supposed to have 11 hours between shifts


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## miss direct (Jun 21, 2007)

Thank goodness that is over. Thanks for all the advice given in here. I felt more confident having notes in with me and having thought about what I could say in defence of myself. 

I didn't cry...to concentrate I was counting the hairs on the training manager's almost bald head.

Basically I've been given a month to improve and have another 8am meeting scheduled. If  I am deemed not to have improved, then things will take a "formal route". 

It's pretty obvious I don't like the job and have a lack of motivation, how am I supposed to fake that?

It's piddling me off now as I am back at my desk and they are obviously whispering about me. Say it to my face or out of sight.


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 21, 2007)

Well done for coping with that. It must have been horrible.

Now is the time to make a list of all the things which make it difficult for you to cope, and which will make it difficult for you to "pass" the month.

For example, you may wish to draw attention to the fact that they are in breach of the working time regulations by calling you in to an 8am meeting if you didn't finish work until 10pm last night!  But there are lots of others. Make a list of all of these, and make a list of what support you think you need which would help you to improve and feel motivated.

Do it as soon as possible, and then report back on here for further advice before putting it to your managers.

Have you joined a trade union yet?


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## EastEnder (Jun 21, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> Basically I've been given a month to improve and have another 8am meeting scheduled. If  I am deemed not to have improved, then things will take a "formal route".
> 
> It's pretty obvious I don't like the job and have a lack of motivation, how am I supposed to fake that?


Glad to hear it wasn't too awful.

So what now? If the job's really that bad, will you be able to jump through the necessary hoops to placate them? Or will you consider looking for something better elsewhere?


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## beeboo (Jun 21, 2007)

Well done for getting through it (and for not crying!) 

Everyone has given very sound advice about how to stand up to the managers, and to fight it.  

However, if it were me, and I hated the job and lacked the motivation to change things, I'd be looking elsewhere for another job asap.

Do you actually think there is a realistic chance things are going to improve in the next month?  Have you agreed that anything about your role or the demands placed on you are going to change, or have you basically just been told to 'pull your socks up'.

You say yourself you can't fake the motivation.  How do you see the meeting going in 4 weeks time?  Do you think anything will have changed?


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## keicar (Jun 21, 2007)

Not going to comment further, because others have better knowledge than me but...you're not getting in from work until 11pm, and they claim you lack 'motivation' ? Eh how do they work that one out??!!


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## Space Girl (Jun 21, 2007)

they are telling you to improve but in what way do they want you to do this and are they putting any action plans in place to assist you with this improvement?


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## winterinmoscow (Jun 22, 2007)

well done for getting through it

hang in there, sounds lkike they're more of a problem than you!


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## izz (Jun 25, 2007)

Well done for getting through that, it must have been quite quite horrible and, when you're old and grey and looking back you'll probably find it was the worst thing you've had to go through in your working life. 

It's time to think now though, if things have come to such a pass with your current employer it's definitely time to look for another job. It's far far easier to get a job from a job and you have legitimate reasons for looking (they keep you in until 10pm and expect you back at your desk for 8am is a good one). i strongly recommend you get yourself out of there and into somewhere better suited to yourself - even if you find yourself taking on less status-worthy work. 

One way or another you and your employer do not suit each other, and it will be far better, and far more empowering, for you to remove yourself from this very unpleasant situation than for them to sack you.

Personally it seems like the fault is mainly, if not completely, on their side but unfortunately as with all other employees you're disadvantaged here. 

Please look for another job, this one is not for you, you don't need them messing up your life. Even if you do all they ask, this is going to hang around your career like a bad smell, you owe it to yourself to find somewhere better.


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## gabi (Jun 25, 2007)

Just quit - no idea what kinda job u do, but there seems to loads around at the mo..


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## miss direct (Jun 26, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Just quit - no idea what kinda job u do, but there seems to loads around at the mo..



The thing is - I am on a training contract. It lasts until September 2008, and if I leave I supposedly have to pay back £2,000 for my training. 

I am part way through a level 4 NVQ and I did want to complete it before leaving. 

I can't see how I am going to change my personality in a month, although I am trying harder, so will probably still end up getting the sack. 

This isn't what I want to do with my life, just not sure what it is I do want to do!

Turned on BBC last night and saw a girl I was at college with, she now acts as an adoptive mum to baby gorillas in Cameroon! She left her home and career to go and do that, that is quite inspiring to me.


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 26, 2007)

Join a trade union, and seek advice about how to leave without repaying the two grand. It can be done


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## miss direct (Jul 18, 2007)

My follow up meeting is tomorrow. I'm not half as scared as I was for the first one. I have worked hard this month and know it. 

I looked at joining the NUJ but it costs £12.50 a month and that's an extra expense I cannot afford at the moment. 

I'm not sure what else to do with my life. 
What's the rules on references? Can they give me a bad reference and mention all these meetings? If so, I don't think I'll ever get another job!


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## innana (Jul 18, 2007)

miss direct said:
			
		

> My follow up meeting is tomorrow. I'm not half as scared as I was for the first one. I have worked hard this month and know it.
> 
> I looked at joining the NUJ but it costs £12.50 a month and that's an extra expense I cannot afford at the moment. !



With the meeting being tomorrow it's a bit late to be considering unions in time for that meeting, but if it does go badly, you may well want/need union support for the next more formal route, if they decide to go that way.  Can you really not afford £12.50 a month?  Is there another union you could join that might cost less (you don't have to join the one that's recognised by your employer - recognition of unions is primarily for negotiations about pay & conditions, etc) but any union can give you information and support on employment law issues, etc.




			
				miss direct said:
			
		

> What's the rules on references? Can they give me a bad reference and mention all these meetings? If so, I don't think I'll ever get another job!



There's another thread on here that's got good information in it about references.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 18, 2007)

thats where unions come in handy - they can negotiate agreed references against their client (?) taking further action against proceedures that don't follow the employers protocols (in my experience and that of colleagues)

beg/borrow that 12.50 for this month and next - you could always leave the union later.  Union representation can stop bullying.


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## Guineveretoo (Jul 18, 2007)

I am afraid that no union will be able to provide advice and support to someone who joins on this basis. 

Think about it. How could they employ people to provide the service, if people only joined for a couple of weeks, and then resigned afterwards?

It's like insurance - you can't insure your house after it has burnt down.

I am disappointed that you didn't join a trade union even though urged to do so, and I am afraid that, since you now in the category of a union refusenik, I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt, so I feel uncomfortable about giving you any more advice.

That's not because I wish you ill, but because I am a trade unionist, and owe my allegiance to people who do believe in trade unions....


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 18, 2007)

I #ve been paying union fees for over a decade (just to get me credentials in like) and I am glad of the collective and individual support it offers me.

however, I considering that the op might be in annother job soon that would require a different union, considering her unhappiness in/with her workplace

If a person has never been in a union or unionised environment they can't necessarily appreciate the benefits and its just annother expense from an over committed budget

I still think she should join


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## Guineveretoo (Jul 18, 2007)

I still think she should join, too, and I would have thought that, if she now thinks NUJ is the right union for her, this is because she sees her future in the industry in which the NUJ organise, so this is the appropriate union to join.

12.50 a month is not a lot, considering the peace of mind it gives you, not to mention all the other perks!

But she knows that


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