# Is The Wire any good really? (full of spoilers btw!)



## teahead (Nov 28, 2008)

Bit late, prolly a thread Somewhere Out There... 

I'm thinking of some dills at work that think it's smart, and about their phantasies of being Coppers that Matter. I mean!

Don't usually get stuck in front of a telly, especially with a DVD series of shows, but should I?


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 28, 2008)

Yes.  Next?


----------



## isitme (Nov 28, 2008)

It is very fucking depressing, but it is good

I got halfway through it and it did my head in


----------



## exleper (Nov 28, 2008)

isitme said:


> It is very fucking depressing, but it is good
> 
> I got halfway through it and it did my head in


Yeah, I've got season 1 on DVD and it has been hard work so far.  But the overwhelming praise from all corners spurs me on.  Charlie Brooker says he envies anyone who hasn't yet watched the Wire, as they have so much to look forward to, or something along those lines.


----------



## isitme (Nov 28, 2008)

exleper said:


> Yeah, I've got season 1 on DVD and it has been hard work so far.  But the overwhelming praise from all corners spurs me on.  Charlie Brooker says he envies anyone who hasn't yet watched the Wire, as they have so much to look forward to, or something along those lines.



season 1 you have to really stick with. the first few episodes are just really hard work. but it does all come together

mind you, i'm still on season 3 and it is a work of art, but it's still a lot of work


----------



## Badger Kitten (Nov 28, 2008)

I started s1 but I can't understand what they are saying.
I'm slightly deaf but I can usually cope: but for wire I need subtitles.

So no Wire for me.


----------



## onemonkey (Nov 28, 2008)

I watched it mainly on the strength of the wild adulation it has got round here. 

yes, it is pretty good.. and compared to most of the rest of the drek on telly it is amazingly well written. but i feel like a large part the reason it is thought of so highly is only in contrast to the alternatives.


----------



## teahead (Nov 28, 2008)

onemonkey said:


> I watched it mainly on the strength of the wild adulation it has got round here.
> 
> yes, it is pretty good.. and compared to most of the rest of the drek on telly it is amazingly well written. but i feel like a large part the reason it is thought of so highly is only in contrast to the alternatives.


You mean like Minder back-in-the-day? S'wot I thought.


----------



## EddyBlack (Nov 28, 2008)

Its alright like. All these muppets round here go a bit over the top like. 



Spoiler: series three



Its good when Stringer gets killed in series three by Omar and Brother mozoune. 


 <spoilered - FM>

Seriously, first three are good but not great, rest is worth a watch.


----------



## teahead (Nov 28, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Its alright like. All these muppets round here go a bit over the top like. spoilered
> Seriously, first three are good but not great, rest is worth a watch.


OK from series 4 (or from when that guy Omar starts his work somewhere in series 3) you're saying? Sit my butt down at teh telescreen and spoon in the winter foods?


----------



## EddyBlack (Nov 28, 2008)

teahead said:


> OK from series 4 (or from when that guy Omar starts his work somewhere in series 3) you're saying? Sit my butt down at teh telescreen and spoon in the winter foods?



Nah... I'm saying you want to watch the first three series if anything. Really great. Its like three separate stories, 1. Baltimore street dealers vs. the police. 2. Organised crime in a small city. etc.

Its realistic, but not the be all of TV drama. It is good like, they're just a bit stupid it about around here at the moment, but it is very good. Very realistic also.


----------



## teahead (Nov 28, 2008)

Thanks for all these. I'll make my colleague's day and ask if I can borrow 'some'... This thing _does_ seem to have a kind of weight and quantity to it somehow, way it's talked about by those that dig it.


----------



## foo (Nov 28, 2008)

i think it's very very good. iwas late to it, and am on series 3. i prefer to watch from start to finish because they refer back to stuff all the time. i don't find it depressing, quite the opposite actually...strangely restful. 

and the casting is brilliant imo.


----------



## isitme (Nov 28, 2008)

foo said:


> i think it's very very good. iwas late to it, and am on series 3. i prefer to watch from start to finish because they refer back to stuff all the time. i don't find it depressing, quite the opposite actually...strangely restful.
> 
> and the casting is brilliant imo.



except mcnulty

he's shit


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 28, 2008)

Just watched series one this week. It's quite addictive viewing and very well put together. Gotta keep the devil down in the hole.  think I'll be buying series 2 on Saturday.


----------



## El Jefe (Nov 28, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Its alright like. All these muppets round here go a bit over the top like. Its good when xxxxx
> 
> Seriously, first three are good but not great, rest is worth a watch.



Thanks for calling us muppets, and thanks for the fucking spoiler for those who haven't seen it yet. Tit


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 28, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Its alright like. All these muppets round here go a bit over the top like. Its good when .
> Seriously, first three are good but not great, rest is worth a watch.



opinion's one thing, but that's a cuntish spoiler to give.  too late, i guess - cos the OP has read it - but you really are scum.


----------



## isitme (Nov 28, 2008)

yeah that was a real spoiler for me cos I am on season 3 and that hadn't happened yet

I don't like xxxxxxx anyway so I'm not that gutted


----------



## foo (Nov 28, 2008)

i hadn't got to that bit yet either. 

 Eddy.

i only just realised Stringer is a British actor. a good actor, and a bloody good accent imo.   (that's not a spoiler is it?)


----------



## mrsfran (Nov 28, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I started s1 but I can't understand what they are saying.
> I'm slightly deaf but I can usually cope: but for wire I need subtitles.
> 
> So no Wire for me.


 


I need the subtitles too, and the DVDs have them.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Nov 28, 2008)

yes it is really good.  Better than sopranos and the shield, in terms of hard hitting TV crime dramas.  Both of those also come highly reccomended, albeit for slightly different reasons.  What they all have in common is high production values.


----------



## kained&able (Nov 28, 2008)

As far as i'm concerned its th best thing thats  ever been on tv that isn't called match of the day.

You end up caring about the chareceters so danm much and beacuse there isnt a main charecter you end up caring about lkots of people.

dave


----------



## Santino (Nov 28, 2008)

It's fucking ace, for reasons outlined above and elsewhere.


----------



## kained&able (Nov 28, 2008)

ow can you not understand them? I mean snoop possibly but everytone else speaks quite nicely especially all the coppers.

dave


----------



## Belushi (Nov 28, 2008)

One of the best drama series ever made.


----------



## Ranbay (Nov 28, 2008)

I was so glad when i finished i felt i had to watch it all....

there where some great moments in there, and some fucking dull ones... 

if you got loads of spare time then go for it


----------



## The Octagon (Nov 28, 2008)

About 5 episodes into Series 1 and I'm enjoying it immensely already.

Had to have the subtitles on for my girlfriend, but I'm reasonably ok with the dialogue.

Oh, and Eddy Black - thanks for the spoiler, you rotting piece of cunt juice.


----------



## kained&able (Nov 28, 2008)

he put spoiler tag with the sries number on it. where the problem.

dave


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 28, 2008)

kained&able said:


> he put spoiler tag with the sries number on it. where the problem.
> 
> dave



fridgemagnet has done that afterwards.


----------



## ringo (Nov 28, 2008)

Once you get into it and tune your ear into the accents it's incredibly addictive. I do still miss bits of the dialogue, but then they make that point in a couple of the episodes, getting a woman from the ghetto to translate some of the wire tap conversations and pick out the names.

BTW I didn't read the spoiler tag but the comment complaining about it means I've just guessed what it was


----------



## EddyBlack (Nov 28, 2008)

The Octagon said:


> Oh, and Eddy Black - thanks for the spoiler, you rotting piece of cunt juice.



twas a bit mean that.

theres plenty to look forward to though, the bit where Big Joey kills Bunk with a grenade is one that sticks in the mind.


----------



## kained&able (Nov 28, 2008)

thats bits class and very unexpected.

dave


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 28, 2008)

I think the Wire is good but it's not the second coming. I think TV is just such a load of shit that the wire really stands out. I'm only on season 2 so I can't say too much yet, maybe I will be saying it is fucking amazing in a week or two. 
Great to see something without having 'last time on the wire' or having things spelt out for the audience.


----------



## belboid (Nov 28, 2008)

One of the three greatest tv series' ever made imo.  Almost nothing wrong with it, except for when the NY gangsters come in and kill everyone off at the end.  Tho that was just to ensure there could never be any spin offs I heard.

It does sometimes take me a while to hear what new characters are saying when they first appear, especially the kids, muttering bastards. And there probably aren't quite enough cops who are complete and utter cunts (like XXXXX in season 4, who should just die), but otherwise, characterisation, plotting, depth, verisimilitude, it's got them all in buckets.


----------



## El Jefe (Nov 28, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> twas a bit mean that.



you say mean, i say a cunt's trick.


----------



## Biddlybee (Nov 28, 2008)

Anyone fancy lending me the first series then?


----------



## big eejit (Nov 28, 2008)

Buy it! I buy very few DVDs, but have all series of The Wire cos every time we finished watching one we had to order the next one straight away to cope with the addiction!


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 28, 2008)

Too many spoilers here, arrrhhhh.


----------



## belboid (Nov 28, 2008)

my copies still on loan, to the fourth person and with another two in the queue, i'm afraid


----------



## Biddlybee (Nov 28, 2008)

big eejit said:


> Buy it! I buy very few DVDs, but have all series of The Wire cos every time we finished watching one we had to order the next one straight away to cope with the addiction!


They're not cheap though... and what if I don't like it?


----------



## belboid (Nov 28, 2008)

get it off ebay and then put it back up for sale, should end up costing you no more than a fiver that way.  i've done that for a few things, a reasonably cheap method


----------



## g force (Nov 28, 2008)

I love the Wire...it's truly superb. I just hate the over intellectualisation of it at times.


----------



## Biddlybee (Nov 28, 2008)

belboid said:


> get it off ebay and then put it back up for sale, should end up costing you no more than a fiver that way. i've done that for a few things, a reasonably cheap method


good thinking


----------



## isitme (Nov 28, 2008)

just seen more fucking spoilers

can someone put a warning on the thread title

i never would have thought that bubbles was an alien btw


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Nov 28, 2008)

isitme said:


> just seen more fucking spoilers
> 
> can someone put a warning on the thread title
> 
> i never would have thought that bubbles was an alien btw



and the bit where marlo, chris and slim charles run a train on Prop Joe - there was no need.


----------



## belboid (Nov 28, 2008)

isitme said:


> i never would have thought that bubbles was an alien btw



c'mon. obvious man who fell to earth rip off there. sorry, _homage_


----------



## kerb (Nov 29, 2008)

what the fuck is wrong with the peeps round here giving the plotlines away?

its fairly obvious that most of the people havent watched the series, yet still they have to give away what happens.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2008)

missfran said:


> I need the subtitles too, and the DVDs have them.



check the people who don't listen to hip hop


----------



## Voley (Nov 29, 2008)

It's hugely over-rated. 

I got bored in the middle of the second series. I'll probably give it another go later on - I like it but it's not a patch on The Sopranos.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Nov 29, 2008)

I know it's very good, but I find that I'm never quite in the mood to watch it.  Studying hard and looking after my boy, I get a limited amount of TV_watching time, and I really need to watch slightly lighter stuff generally..


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2008)

NVP said:


> It's hugely over-rated.
> 
> I got bored in the middle of the second series. I'll probably give it another go later on - I like it but it's not a patch on The Sopranos.



Sopranos is great, but it's far more episodic than The Wire. Don't think you can compare the two really, or at least not beyond a personal preference judgement


----------



## Voley (Nov 29, 2008)

The Sopranos never gets boring. The Wire does.


----------



## corporate whore (Nov 29, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> Sopranos is great, but it's far more episodic than The Wire.


 
I agree. Watching some of Wire series 4 last night, I thought how few scenes are meaningless. There's not much flab on it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2008)

NVP said:


> The Sopranos never gets boring. The Wire does.



thats an attention span issue I'm afraid. The wire is more like chapters in a book, so you're in it for major plotlines and characters and the sub-plots are thier for texture and realism. The episodic nature of the Sopranos means your getting mini-plots that pay off in one episode alongside the larger story-arcs. Thats very TV, and works brilliantly but it does reward casual viewing inna way the wire doesn't.


----------



## Santino (Nov 29, 2008)

I love The Sopranos, but The Wire really is in a class above. This may sound like an old-fashioned thing to say, but I also find The Wire to be morally superior, or rather, more sophisticated in articulating the moral ambiguities of its subject matter while, at the same time, not judging any of the characters in a crude moralistic way.


----------



## Voley (Nov 29, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> thats an attention span issue I'm afraid. The wire is more like chapters in a book, so you're in it for major plotlines and characters and the sub-plots are thier for texture and realism. The episodic nature of the Sopranos means your getting mini-plots that pay off in one episode alongside the larger story-arcs. Thats very TV, and works brilliantly but it does reward casual viewing inna way the wire doesn't.



Nah, the characters slowly rise and fall in The Sopranos, too. You have episodes where there isn't a whole lot going on - it's just setting the scene - but it's much more engaging for me than The Wire. If Christopher's going to go back on drugs or not is more interesting to me than whether McNulty's gonna fuck his boss over. Simple as that.


----------



## isitme (Nov 29, 2008)

Sopranos series 1 to 4 are amazing then it gets a bit dull until the last series

a bit like the wire only they only had 5 series


----------



## belboid (Nov 29, 2008)

NVP said:


> The Sopranos never gets boring. The Wire does.



I've known aq few people who said they found the second season a bit dull.  Dont know why, it was belting in my book, even if it is the least belting of the five


----------



## mrsfran (Nov 29, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> check the people who don't listen to hip hop



Or, check the people who have a hearing loss


----------



## kained&able (Nov 29, 2008)

i love sopranos but perfer the wire. I just find it more absorbing and a lot less obvious.

especilly the bit where kima, mcnutty and bubs get it on i mean i didn't see that happening at all!


dave


----------



## isitme (Nov 29, 2008)

kained&able said:


> i love sopranos but perfer the wire. I just find it more absorbing and a lot less obvious.
> 
> especilly the bit where kima, mcnutty and bubs get it on i mean i didn't see that happening at all!
> 
> ...



I was more surprised by everyone who was killed over the 5 series rising up as zombies in the final episode. who would have thought wallace would be the king zombie?


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 29, 2008)

Deadwood still gets my vote as all-time greatest, because of the script.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2008)

missfran said:


> Or, check the people who have a hearing loss




oh sorry


----------



## belboid (Nov 29, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Deadwood still gets my vote as all-time greatest, because of the script.



there's a great bit at the end of season 4 of Wire, where the writers are clearly taking the piss out of Deadwood, when some bloke is watching an episode and you see him giggling 'ooh, they said 'cocksucker''


----------



## isitme (Nov 29, 2008)

I think Trailer Park Boys is the best TV show for fucking ages

I am not as bothered about seeing the rest of TheWire, TheSopranos or anything as much as I was about TrailerParkBoys

The only American thing I was more into was Homicide when I was about 15


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 29, 2008)

belboid said:


> there's a great bit at the end of season 4 of Wire, where the writers are clearly taking the piss out of Deadwood, when some bloke is watching an episode and you see him giggling 'ooh, they said 'cocksucker''



Seriously?  That's brilliant!


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2008)

I went fucking mental for Generation Kill. I was counting the days


----------



## elevendayempire (Dec 4, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> I went fucking mental for Generation Kill. I was counting the days


I got to chat to Ed Burns yesterday. How many internets do I win?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 4, 2008)

exleper said:


> Yeah, I've got season 1 on DVD and it has been hard work so far.  But the overwhelming praise from all corners spurs me on.  Charlie Brooker says he envies anyone who hasn't yet watched the Wire, as they have so much to look forward to, or something along those lines.



That would be me.

I just got the first season a few days ago. I've seen two episodes. I'd been putting this off, because I watched an episode once, and it seemed to me that the writers were being too clever, putting words into people's mouths that would never be there in real life.

And at the very beginning of the first episode, I thought - uh oh. The kid being busted tells a story about a regular in a crap game who grabs the money and runs. He gets caught sometimes and the shit beat out of him, or sometimes he gets away.

The cops asks, 'If you know he's going to grab the money, every week, why do you let him keep coming to the game?' The kid says, we can't stop him from playing. Cop says, 'why', and the kid says:

"Because. It America, man." 

Luckily,  that sort of bullshit has been at a minimum so far. The main complaint I'd have is that the acting isn't great. McNulty, he doesn't convince me. Maybe the actors grow into the parts.

I'll see the first season through, then decide if I'll continue.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 4, 2008)

Its episode 4 where you will really get hooked, I reckon.

Mother_fucker_.


----------



## The Octagon (Dec 4, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Its episode 4 where you will really get hooked, I reckon.
> 
> Mother_fucker_.



I'd agree with this^^^

I've just watched episode 7, great stuff.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 4, 2008)

isitme said:


> I am not as bothered about seeing the rest of TheWire,
> The only American thing I was more into was Homicide when I was about 15



By the same people, of course


----------



## ringo (Dec 4, 2008)

Just finished series 3 of The Wire and I still can't say a'ight properly


----------



## 8den (Dec 4, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That would be me.
> 
> I just got the first season a few days ago. I've seen two episodes. I'd been putting this off, because I watched an episode once, and it seemed to me that the writers were being too clever, putting words into people's mouths that would never be there in real life.
> 
> ...




Johnny, I've just finished "Homicide a Year on the Killing Streets" The Wire's David Simon's book about spending a year following a Baltimore Homicide Squad. The Snot Boogy story is lifted verbatim from an anecdote told by an older homicide cop. 




			
				NVP said:
			
		

> The Sopranos never gets boring. The Wire does.



No the Wire gets complicated, never boring.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm now watching Season Three of the Wire.

All I can think is, maybe this season was written during that writer's strike in Hollywood, and in their absence, the producers put a bunch of grips and sound engineers behind the computers, writing dialogue and plot development. Incoherent and boring so far; maybe it gets better.

Re: dialogue. The Commish: 'If the gods fuck you, all you can do is fuck the gods back. This is Baltimore: the gods won't save you here.'

And if you were in a room with me, Commish, the gods couldn't save you from me shoving a fire extinguisher up your rectum.

And I hate Bubbles. Bubbles, the bubbly crackhead. Ho ho ho, off to the metal dealers we go! All the upbeat fun of homelessness and addiction.

There used to be a video game character named Bubsy: I think bubbles is modeled after Bubsy.






"Y'all got some crack? I'll snitch for some crack!"


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

And is Omar really the gay Robin Hood of the Baltimore Projects?

"Robin Hood - Men in Weaves"






"Y'all killed my boy. Now ah'm goan bust a cap in yo' ass, and nick yo' crack, mos def!"


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Another highlight for me in the third season so far, is the veiled attack against affirmative action, in the form of Deputy Chief Rawls.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 29, 2008)

Omar is not Robin Hood ffs, that is a very crass interpretation of the character


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> Omar is not Robin Hood ffs, that is a very crass interpretation of the character



He's a scarred drug rip dude, but at heart, he's a sensitive gay man who saw his boy done wrong, and now he's trying to right the cosmic scales of justice. 

When was the last time you saw Omar actually hurt anyone?

I'm in season 3, and so far, I've seen him stick a shotgun in people's face. I've seen him do dressup as a spastic guy in a wheelchair. I've seen him write scripts for his girl/actors to play distraught mothers, etc.

He's the crook with a heart of gold. 

Give me freaking Buscemi off the Sopranos, any day. At least his character had the ring of truth about it.


----------



## Flashman (Dec 29, 2008)

Omar is based on three stick-up guys that actually existed in Baltimore, one of which was gay. He hurts plenty of people later, give him a chance .

 He's an amalgamation certainly, but that's the only criticism one could throw if you read up on him; I know you're good at finding links at a moments notice.

In fact if you look up David Simon and Ed Burns you'll find out why The Wire is so interesting and why their testimonies are so pertinent viz America and more-so Black America. 

It's an essay on the drug trade, city bureaucracy, the school system, the print news media, American Cities, history and racial history* and there's more truth in one hour of it than there is in the any other show that's ever been broadcast, including freakin' Buschemi off the Sopranos. 

Yo.


And btw I knew a chap who never hurt a citizen in a 20 year drug/crime career. They exist, believe it or not. 




*Sounds wanky and pretentious but thankfully it doesn't play that way, it manages to be engaging and entertaining, just like all the best teachers do


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Flashman said:


> Omar is based on three stick-up guys that actually existed in Baltimore, one of which was gay. He hurts plenty of people later, give him a chance .
> 
> He's an amalgamation certainly, but that's the only criticism one could throw if you read up on him; I know you're good at finding links at a moments notice.
> 
> ...



I'm watching a tv show. I expect it to stand on its own, without me having to do a bunch of background research to convince me of its merit.

I know that it's an attempted essay on bureaucracy, urban american blight, etc. It just has some flaws imo, that detract from the delivery of the message.

I'm sure there are people involved in criminality who aren't violent, but Omar, to this point in my viewing, is someone who commits armed robbery of drug dealers. Of necessity, that line of work involves lots and lots of violence.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

p.s. I hate to compare it to the sopranos yet again, but it wasn't necessary to do any research before watching that series, nor was it necessary to know the pedigree of the writers, whoever they were.

For me, the sopranos is still the gold standard by which these others will be measured.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

> there's more truth in one hour of it than there is in the any other show that's ever been broadcast, including freakin' Buschemi off the Sopranos.



There is more of the truth you expect to hear, delivered with essentially a feelgood, Establishment message.

At the end of the first two seasons, all of the targeted bad guys end up behind bars. Barksdale et al. The Stevedores Union boys. The cops, although bumbling bureaucrats, get their man thanks to the work of a few smart mavericks.

At the end of the Sopranos, you have Tony and his family sitting in a restaurant, enjoying a meal. The crime lord wins. And there is your real american truth, delivered in five minutes.


----------



## Flashman (Dec 29, 2008)

One possible truth. And not a Black one. America isn't all about goodfellas is it. 

And the truth is a lot of crooks do get banged up, America's pens are overfilled man. You know that.

As for the diatribe about researching the show, well, The Wire isn't just another crime show that's the whole point, it wants people to think about why "three strikes yoo in" policies don't work in ghettos, and how education of young'uns can actually change these little hoppers and shawties perspectives.


----------



## Flashman (Dec 29, 2008)

Season 4 is very interesting dealing with the school system I'd like to hear your views when you've watched that.

4 is the best series IMO.


----------



## nightbreed (Dec 29, 2008)

Got the First season on DVD. Very good.


----------



## El Jefe (Dec 29, 2008)

got the boxed set for Xmas - only have Season 5 to watch, but then I can start all over again


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Flashman said:


> One possible truth. And not a Black one. America isn't all about goodfellas is it.
> 
> And the truth is a lot of crooks do get banged up, America's pens are overfilled man. You know that.
> 
> As for the diatribe about researching the show, well, The Wire isn't just another crime show that's the whole point, it wants people to think about why "three strikes yoo in" policies don't work in ghettos, and how education of young'uns can actually change these little hoppers and shawties perspectives.




No, america isn't all about goodfellas, but neither is it all about the ghetto drug trade. But the series with the goodfellas at least gave us insight into humanity, via excellent characterization well acted.


As for truth, we have this Truth in The Wire so far:

Drugs are ubiquitous in inner city urban america.

The drug trade is a blight on the lives of customers, dealers, peripherals, and people not involved at all.

The cops can't deal with it because it's too big, because they are incompetent, corrupt, and dogged by hidebound thinking.



So, if you're going to make a series about something we've known for a long time, if you aren't going to reveal something new, you have to impart the message in a novel way, or else interest will wane. Imo, the Wire hasn't done that. In the end, it's another cop show, beefed up with a few modern buzzwords and shibboleths to try to catch and hold the attention.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

Flashman said:


> Season 4 is very interesting dealing with the school system I'd like to hear your views when you've watched that.
> 
> 4 is the best series IMO.



Only 1 1/2 to go, and then I'll be there.

I've made a vow to watch the whole damn thing, and watch it I will....


----------



## mhendo (Dec 29, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> There is more of the truth you expect to hear, delivered with essentially a feelgood, Establishment message.
> 
> At the end of the first two seasons, all of the targeted bad guys end up behind bars. Barksdale et al. The Stevedores Union boys. The cops, although bumbling bureaucrats, get their man thanks to the work of a few smart mavericks.
> 
> At the end of the Sopranos, you have Tony and his family sitting in a restaurant, enjoying a meal. The crime lord wins. And there is your real american truth, delivered in five minutes.


You are, of course, completely welcome to all of your opinions, especially the ones related to aesthetics and general artistic merit. Some people like the show, and some don't, and that's fine.

But if the above is the message you gleaned from your first two-and-a-half seasons of The Wire, i submit that you literally did not understand what was going on.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

mhendo said:


> You are, of course, completely welcome to all of your opinions, especially the ones related to aesthetics and general artistic merit. Some people like the show, and some don't, and that's fine.
> 
> But if the above is the message you gleaned from your first two-and-a-half seasons of The Wire, i submit that you literally did not understand what was going on.



I submit that you're wrong.


----------



## 8den (Dec 29, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No, america isn't all about goodfellas, but neither is it all about the ghetto drug trade. But the series with the goodfellas at least gave us insight into humanity, via excellent characterization well acted.
> 
> 
> As for truth, we have this Truth in The Wire so far:
> ...



JC your "profound insight" about the truth of the wire is damped by the fact that you have completely dismissed aspects of the show as being unrealistic, and as other users of this forum have pointed out, that some of the bits of the wire that are, in your opinion, unrealistic, are in fact based on real events with real people. Your dismal of such instances, as demanding people have to read background to the series, suggests that your claims that others  are ill equiped to make claims to the inaccuracy's of the Wire, seems to me to expose your basic lack of knowledge of the baltimore drugs scene. 

Put simply johnny, you're basically claiming that scenes nearly transcripted by a journalist hands on who spent years in the face of corner boys and homicide police, doesn't ring true. Perhaps you could explain how cops and slingers speak. 

Oh and the third series was written during the writers strike? The writers strike occured during the filming of the 5th series. Whats more is the wire's fifth series was in the can by the end of the strike. 

In short JC your criticism of the wire isn't just bad, it's inaccurate, it's wrong, and your pants are around your ankle and you pathetic little dick's on fire. The latter two points aren't important, they're just an example of JC's mature and balanced review system.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

8den said:


> Jseems to me to expose your basic lack of knowledge of the baltimore drugs scene.
> .



Do you live in Baltimore?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

8den said:


> J
> Oh and the third series was written during the writers strike? The writers strike occured during the filming of the 5th series. Whats more is the wire's fifth series was in the can by the end of the strike. .



I have no idea when the writer's strike was. It was a device I used to get across my impression of the atrociousness of the writing of the first few episodes of that season at least.

As for how people speak, I think they sometimes are playing a little game with the audience. There are lots of scenes with black drug dealers etc having a dialogue. It's hard to understand what they're saying sometimes.

Then, in the third season, they introduce this minor character: a black woman who sits in the station beside the wire speakers, whose job it is to translate the 'ebonics', for the cops like Kima etc.  

They messin' wit' ya!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 29, 2008)

8den said:


> In short JC your criticism of the wire isn't just bad, it's inaccurate, it's wrong, and your pants are around your ankle and you pathetic little dick's on fire. .



Er, we're talking about a tv show here?


----------



## Crispy (Dec 29, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Er, we're talking about a tv show here?


This is WAR goddamnit!


----------



## belboid (Dec 29, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Er, we're talking about a tv show here?



You're not


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do you live in Baltimore?



do you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

spanglechick said:


> do you?



No. I asked 8den that, when he asked me this.



> Originally Posted by 8den  View Post
> Jseems to me to expose your basic lack of knowledge of the baltimore drugs scene.



My point was, that neither of us live in Baltimore.


----------



## Voley (Dec 30, 2008)

I love Wire fans that can't get their head around the fact that some people simply don't like the programme as much as them. To them, if you didn't enjoy it, you didn't understand it / you're not very bright / you've got a short attention span etc. They get to feel superior for a moment. They understand hip-hop lingo. They can follow a plot. They're ace.

The reality, of course, is that anyone incapable of grasping the concept that people's tastes are different is fuck-knuckle dumb and a complete twat.


----------



## 8den (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I have no idea when the writer's strike was. It was a device I used to get across my impression of the atrociousness of the writing of the first few episodes of that season at least.



jesus, as to the wire's greater overall point. The third series starts with the demolition of the towers. When someone asked David Simon about the possibility that it was symbolism for a greater point, his reaction was "ya think"? There's a greater point to be made, it's about America's problems and it's reaction to these problems, about how the "war on terror" has shifted attention from the "war on drugs" and also how the idea that you could win a war on drugs is any more possible than winning a war against "terror" is just ludicrous. In both cases America is engaging in triage trying to stem the never ending flow of drugs and terrorism, and unless they engage in radical changes in tactics nothing really going to change. Like say creating a Hamsterdam. The point of the series is flying far over your head, you're looking at your feet trying to feel superior to the series.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

8den said:


> In both cases America is engaging in triage trying to stem the never ending flow of drugs and terrorism, and unless they engage in radical changes in tactics nothing really going to change.



Post 88, above:



> As for truth, we have this Truth in The Wire so far:
> 
> Drugs are ubiquitous in inner city urban america.
> 
> ...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

8den said:


> When someone asked David Simon about the possibility that it was symbolism for a greater point, his reaction was "ya think"?.



It's also a case of art imitating life. See: the story of Pruitt Igoe.


----------



## moonsi til (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm loving it. Only on season 1 and will be watching episode 7 & 8 tonight. Planning on buying further seasons as at the moment I'm renting them from LOVEfilm. i like the fact that i still have so much more to watch.


----------



## mhendo (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8530687]I submit that you're wrong.:)[/QUOTE]Well let's have a look at the record then. You said:[QUOTE=Johnny Canuck2 said:


> There is more of the truth you expect to hear, delivered with essentially a feelgood, Establishment message.


Huh?

It seems to me that a show with an establishment message wouldn't go out of its way, in every single season, to make the establishment look corrupt, incompetent, and venal.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> At the end of the first two seasons, all of the targeted bad guys end up behind bars. Barksdale et al. The Stevedores Union boys. The cops, although bumbling bureaucrats, get their man thanks to the work of a few smart mavericks.


As i said, i believe this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding, or at the very least an extremely naive and simplistic reading, of _The Wire_.




----------WARNING! OPEN SPOILERS FOR SEASONS 1 AND 2 AHEAD!----------​



It is simply factually incorrect to say that, at the end of the first two seasons, "all of the targeted bad guys end up behind bars." Really, the only ones to get the sort of time that might make the cops happy were Wee-Bey, who did dozens of murders, and D'Angelo Barksdale, who was the one guy in the whole Barksdale organization who had moral qualms about the drug business, and who almost rolled on the gang. If D'Angelo had stuck to his guns, and acted as a witness, your claim would be true, and everyone in the Barksdale organization would have gone down hard.

As it is, Avon got 7 years instead of 20 or 30, a few low-level guys did some time, and Wee-Bey got caught because D'Angelo told the cops where he was before backing out of the plea deal. Stringer Bell stayed as clean as the driven snow, and he and Brianna continued to run the drug operation while Avon was in jail. Stringer was helped at the lower levels by characters like Tank, Slim Charles, Boadie Broadus, etc., etc. 

To argue, in the face of all this, that "all of the targeted bad guys end up behind bars," is just nonsensical. 

And for you to make that claim about Season 2, i'm guessing you must have missed the final episode, where one of the most memorable parts is the scene where we see Spiros Vondopoulos and The Greek riding the elevator at Baltimore-Washington International Airport on their way to freedom.

Who actually got caught in Season 2? It seems to me that about the only guys to really get serious jail time were Sergei Malatov, the mindless muscle that Spiros and The Greek used to do their dirty work, and Eton. George Glekas was killed by Ziggy, and Frank Subotka, the one guy who (like D'Angelo in Season 1) could have made sure that everyone went down, was killed by Spiros and The Greek before he could give the cops his information.

The union hall is shut down, but it's a bit hard to feel any sense of justice about that, given that their demise is largely the result of an asshole cop with a vendetta over a stained-glass window.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> At the end of the Sopranos, you have Tony and his family sitting in a restaurant, enjoying a meal. The crime lord wins. And there is your real american truth, delivered in five minutes.


Actually, i think the message of _The Wire_ demonstrates even more truth, and considerably more subtlety: the crime lord might not always win (he sometimes ends up in prison), but even when he doesn't, there's someone else to take his place, and not much changes or improves.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> He's a scarred drug rip dude, but at heart, he's a sensitive gay man who saw his boy done wrong, and now he's trying to right the cosmic scales of justice.
> 
> When was the last time you saw Omar actually hurt anyone?


Well, you're apparently in the middle of Season 3, so i won't spoil anything for you by looking ahead.

But in Season 1 he killed Stinkum and almost killed Wee-bey, getting him in the leg. And he also got a bunch of shots off at Avon, before Wee-bey shot him under his left arm. In Season 2 he was quieter, but he shot Brother Mouzone and was going to kill him until he realized that Stringer had lied to him about Mouzone's role in killing Brandon.

As for why he doesn't kill more people, well i don't think it's too unrealistic that people would give up their money and/or drugs to him when he's holding a shotgun or a massive silver .45 on them. They know he's willing to use the guns if he doesn't get what he wants, so they give it up. And killing them just for the sake of it wouldn't help him, in terms of silencing witnesses, because he knows that no-one is going to go to the cops, and he knows that Stringer and Avon are after him already anyway.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm in season 3, and so far, I've seen him stick a shotgun in people's face. I've seen him do dressup as a spastic guy in a wheelchair. I've seen him write scripts for his girl/actors to play distraught mothers, etc.
> 
> He's the crook with a heart of gold.
> 
> Give me freaking Buscemi off the Sopranos, any day. At least his character had the ring of truth about it.


Heart of gold? The only thing he gives away is some of the drugs he steals. He keeps the money for himself, and sells the rest of the drugs back to dealers. 

And even the drugs he gives away serve a purpose. I don't know if you remember, but there's a scene (i think in Season 1) where Stringer is complaining to Avon that one of the reasons that it's so difficult to catch Omar is that he gives drugs away to all the users, and in return they keep his locations secret and warn him if there's any trouble coming.

It might seem that he has a heart of gold because he co-operates with the police, and has a code about not killing civilians. But even this can be interpreted as simple pragmatic survival skills. If he only hurts drug dealers, and leaves civilians out of his violence, the cops are far more likely to leave him alone. David Simon actually wrote a very similar character in Season 3 of _NYPD Blue_, a sort of an early prototype for Omar. The character's name was Ferdinand Hollie, and he robbed drug dealers while also acting as an informant for Detective Bobby Simone. Hollie was played by Giancarlo Esposito, who would go on to spend a couple of years on another Baltimore crime drama, _Homicide: Life on the Streets_.





Johnny Canuck2;8527871]I'm sure there are people involved in criminality who aren't violent said:


> As for truth, we have this Truth in The Wire so far:
> 
> Drugs are ubiquitous in inner city urban america.


Well, it's actually much more about Baltimore than about America as a whole. Yes, there are cities that have very similar problems (Detroit is one that comes to mind), but the particular combination of poverty, urban decay, and corruption in Baltimore is quite specific to that city, and has historical roots in issues such as white flight, population decline, etc., etc. 

Baltimore is also, and has been for some time, one of America's biggest per-capita users of heroin. In 2000, around the time that David Simon produced _The Corner_, and at the time he was thinking of turning it into a longer series, Baltimore was the heroin capital of the nation, with the DEA estimating that about 60,000 people, or 10% of the city's population, were drug addicts using heroin or crack cocaine.

I know a few people in Baltimore who have had guns stuck in their faces, either by drug dealers acting tough, or drug addicts looking to get money for a their habit. One friend of mine was prevented from getting into his place of work by a drug dealer who pulled up his shirt to show him his gun, and refused to step of the stoop where my friend's office is.

Another friend, a student in my grad program, was walking home about a block from my house last year when a guy put a gun in her face and demanded her handbag and cellphone.

And a party i attended a few years ago was crashed by a guy with a gun, who forced about a dozen people into the basement at gunpoint and took their wallets, purses, and cellphones before fleeing. Luckily, i had left the party about an hour beforehand.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The drug trade is a blight on the lives of customers, dealers, peripherals, and people not involved at all.
> 
> The cops can't deal with it because it's too big, because they are incompetent, corrupt, and dogged by hidebound thinking.


Well, just because these facts might seem mundane or uninteresting to you doesn't mean they aren't true, and that they can't form the basis for interesting drama.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So, if you're going to make a series about something we've known for a long time, if you aren't going to reveal something new, you have to impart the message in a novel way, or else interest will wane. Imo, the Wire hasn't done that. In the end, it's another cop show, beefed up with a few modern buzzwords and shibboleths to try to catch and hold the attention.


Well, as i said, you're entitled to your opinion of the show, although it seems to me that there are particular ways that _The Wire_ did do things in a novel way, and that this was recognized by just about every television critic in the country, and plenty overseas as well.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do you live in Baltimore?


I just left, after living there for 8 years, including all 5 years when _The Wire_ was shooting and screening.

What do i win?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Excellent post mhendo!


----------



## belboid (Dec 30, 2008)

indeed, tho why you are bothering arguing with johnny is a mystery, all he wants to do is to turn every thread he enters into being all about him and his ignorance


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Dec 30, 2008)

NVP said:


> I love Wire fans that can't get their head around the fact that some people simply don't like the programme as much as them. To them, if you didn't enjoy it, you didn't understand it / you're not very bright / you've got a short attention span etc.



This is literally exactly what I think about people who don't enjoy the wire.

I think people who like shakespeare would probably say the same about me (I hate it).  And they'd be right.  It's written by someone who is rightly regarded as a genius, and I don't get it and don't have the attention span to try and get into it.  I don't see anything wrong with admitting that, though....


----------



## mhendo (Dec 30, 2008)

NVP said:


> I love Wire fans that can't get their head around the fact that some people simply don't like the programme as much as them. To them, if you didn't enjoy it, you didn't understand it / you're not very bright / you've got a short attention span etc. They get to feel superior for a moment. They understand hip-hop lingo. They can follow a plot. They're ace.


Actually, i can completely get my head around the fact that some people don't like the programme as much as i do. Hell, i can even understand that some people might think it's a load of bollocks. As someone who can't stand _Curb Your Enthusiasm_, i'm well aware of the fact that my own taste does not always conform to that of other people on this board.

But while i believe that issues of artistic merit, aesthetics, and general entertainment might ultimately be subjective, the fact is that there are some aspects of a movie or a TV show that are not so open to interpretation. That's why i made my previous post, above.

While *Johnny Canuck2*'s dislike of the show is his business, and not something that can be refuted, some of the assertions he makes about _The Wire_ are, in my opinion, factually inaccurate. And other things he says demonstrate, i think, a failure to grasp important aspects of the show's message. These latter things are issues for which there might be no definitive answer, but that doesn't mean that we can't debate them. Just because aspects of aesthetics and taste and interpretation might be subjective does not mean that they're not amenable to analysis and argument, and some arguments are more convincing than others.


----------



## Pie 1 (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh look, JC2 in being deliberately contrary shocker.

You're such a gimp, Johnny


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Really, the only ones to get the sort of time that might make the cops happy were Wee-Bey, who did dozens of murders, and D'Angelo Barksdale, who was the one guy in the whole Barksdale organization who had moral qualms about the drug business, and who almost rolled on the gang. If D'Angelo had stuck to his guns, and acted as a witness, your claim would be true, and everyone in the Barksdale organization would have gone down hard.
> 
> As it is, Avon got 7 years instead of 20 or 30, a few low-level guys did some time, and Wee-Bey got caught because D'Angelo told the cops where he was before backing out of the plea deal. Stringer Bell stayed as clean as the driven snow, and he and Brianna continued to run the drug operation while Avon was in jail. Stringer was helped at the lower levels by characters like Tank, Slim Charles, Boadie Broadus, etc., etc.




I didn't say they all got what they deserved: I said they all got busted. Avon Barksdale, the biggest dealer on the block, gets busted.

They get busted. 

SPOILER:

Also, from what I hear, at the end of the series, someone from New York comes and kills everybody. Maybe I've heard wrong.

But if I'm right, well, you get the message: crime doesn't pay.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> And for you to make that claim about Season 2, i'm guessing you must have missed the final episode, where one of the most memorable parts is the scene where we see Spiros Vondopoulos and The Greek riding the elevator at Baltimore-Washington International Airport on their way to freedom.
> 
> Who actually got caught in Season 2? It seems to me that about the only guys to really get serious jail time were Sergei Malatov, the mindless muscle that Spiros and The Greek used to do their dirty work, and Eton. George Glekas was killed by Ziggy, and Frank Subotka, the one guy who (like D'Angelo in Season 1) could have made sure that everyone went down, was killed by Spiros and The Greek before he could give the cops his information.
> 
> The union hall is shut down, but it's a bit hard to feel any sense of justice about that, given that their demise is largely the result of an asshole cop with a vendetta over a stained-glass window.



Frank ends up in jail. Ziggy ends up in jail. The corrupt union that turned a blind eye, or actively cooperated in stealing of cans, is decertified.

Crime doesn't pay.

Not everyone can get busted, and the Greek, who they intimate was helping Homeland Security with 911 business, get off.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> But in Season 1 he killed Stinkum and almost killed Wee-bey, getting him in the leg. And he also got a bunch of shots off at Avon, before Wee-bey shot him under his left arm. In Season 2 he was quieter, but he shot Brother Mouzone and was going to kill him until he realized that Stringer had lied to him about Mouzone's role in killing Brandon.



Will you look at what you wrote here?

He has to kill someone at the beginning, to establish his chops as a 'bad dude'. But then, they go to work on showing that he's actually a sensitive gay man who's been scarred, but actually has a heart of gold.

He 'gets a bunch of shots off' at Avon. 

He shoots Brother Mouzone [a ridiculous characterization as it was played, btw], then lets him go, because, well, because he's a principled killer. A much better exhibition of principle so far as I've watched, imo, is Cuddy.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Excellent post mhendo!



Certainly a long one!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> .Heart of gold? The only thing he gives away is some of the drugs he steals. He keeps the money for himself, and sells the rest of the drugs back to dealers.



Uh uh: he gives money to 'his people', via the blind guy. He visits his mother or grandmother, whomever, who gets roughed up by Avon's people. 

Compare that to D'Angelo's relationship with his mother.

Heart of gold, I tell you.


----------



## strung out (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Frank ends up in jail.



no he didnt


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Something else about Season 2 and Frank. The whole thing gets started over the dumb feud over the stained glass window, but as time goes on, we realize that Frank is in fact dirty. He arguably has good intentions, but he's dirty. And he had no time for his kids, because Ziggy ends up as  a fuckup.

Btw, I was wrong above, on reflection: Frank ends up dead, of course. And why? Because instead of going and doing the right thing, as he'd planned, ie ratting everyone out to the cops, he went instead to cut a deal with the bad guys, and gets his neck cut instead. SPOILER

The message is even more simplistic: those dockworkers that you thought were crooked? They are, but they'll meet a bad end because:

Crime doesn't pay.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> And even the drugs he gives away serve a purpose. I don't know if you remember, but there's a scene (i think in Season 1) where Stringer is complaining to Avon that one of the reasons that it's so difficult to catch Omar is that *he gives drugs away to all the users, and in return they keep his locations secret *and warn him if there's any trouble coming.



So, he risks his life, and that of his family, in order to give drugs away: He robs from the rich, gives to the poor! 

The peasants didn't rat Robin out to the Sheriff of Nottingham for the same reason.


----------



## 8den (Dec 30, 2008)

Pie 1 said:


> Oh look, JC2 in being deliberately* cuntrary* shocker.
> 
> You're such a gimp, Johnny



Johnny it's not that you're a ignorant contrary sonabitch, it's that you're so bad at it. 

Your last post, btw, would it kill you to add spoiler tags to your ass ignorant opinion of the series.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

> mhendo said:
> 
> 
> > David Simon actually wrote a very similar character in Season 3 of _NYPD Blue_, a sort of an early prototype for Omar. The character's name was Ferdinand Hollie, and he robbed drug dealers while also acting as an informant for Detective Bobby Simone.
> ...


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Frank Sobotka is probably in my all time favourite TV characters.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Well, it's actually much more about Baltimore than about America as a whole. Yes, there are cities that have very similar problems (Detroit is one that comes to mind), but the *particular combination of poverty, urban decay, and corruption in Baltimore is quite specific to that city, and has historical roots in issues such as white flight, population decline, etc*., etc.



That, friend, is just bullshit.


----------



## 8den (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So, he risks his life, and that of his family, in order to give drugs away: He robs from the rich, gives to the poor!
> 
> The peasants didn't rat Robin out to the Sheriff of Nottingham for the same reason.




Jesus, no, you stupid fuck he gives the drugs away to addicts near his hideout so they will warn him if the police or a dealer is looking for him. 

In the words of southpark, are you high or just incredibly stupid?



> Uh uh: he gives money to 'his people', via the blind guy. He visits his mother or grandmother, whomever, who gets roughed up by Avon's people.



Um what? Avon's team try to kill him when he's visiting his mom, breaking a long standing city wide truce about killing on a sunday morning. "They shot at her when she was on her way to church wearing her sunday crown". 



> Compare that to D'Angelo's relationship with his mother.



D'angelo's mother is part of the barksdale family, she's Avon's sister, he's Avon's nephew. The family are a massive drugs empire. Omar is a stand alone stick up artist. The difference is..

Jesus fucking christ JC did you watch the Wire or just have the nearest five year old watch it for you and transcribe the plot in crayon?


----------



## 8den (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That, friend, is just bullshit.



That, asshole, isn't an argument. 

Does this weak ass bullshit count as debate in Rock City?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> .Well, just because these facts might seem mundane or uninteresting to you doesn't mean they aren't true, and that they can't form the basis for interesting drama.



I didn't say they were, or had to be mundane or uninteresting.

What I said, was that this information is old news, and if a drama or series wants to engage us with this old news, it should be done in a novel and/or interesting way, and imo, The Wire doesn't fully deliver.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> .Well, as i said, you're entitled to your opinion of the show, although it seems to me that there are particular ways that _The Wire_ did do things in a novel way, and that this was recognized by just about every television critic in the country, and plenty overseas as well.



Well, there's that old saying; it's even been used on here: the emperor has no clothes?

The amount of sucking and grovelling that goes on in any situation, isn't necessarily dictated by how deserving the object of the sucking and grovelling actually is.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> I just left, after living there for 8 years, including all 5 years when _The Wire_ was shooting and screening.



Something suggests to me that for the amount of time you'd have spent there, the black ghetto of Baltimore might just as well have been in Uzbekistan.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

mhendo said:


> While *Johnny Canuck2*'s dislike of the show is his business, and not something that can be refuted, some of the assertions he makes about _The Wire_ are, in my opinion, factually inaccurate. And other things he says demonstrate, i think, a failure to grasp important aspects of the show's message. .



I've seen nothing so far to indicate that your ability to understand a tv show, is any greater than mine.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Frank Sobotka is probably in my all time favourite TV characters.



I would have liked him more if the actor didn't feel the necessity to purse his brow, mop his forehead, etc, every time the character was supposed to be feeling emotion.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

8den said:


> Jesus, no, you stupid fuck



The Wire Nazi is back.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I would have liked him more if the actor didn't feel the necessity to purse his brow, mop his forehead, etc, every time the character was supposed to be feeling emotion.



I am sure you would have found some other pointless reason to dislike him.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I would have liked him more if the actor didn't feel the necessity to purse his brow, mop his forehead, etc, every time the character was supposed to be feeling emotion.


 

lips are pursed, brows furrowed. fwiw


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

8den said:


> D'angelo's mother is part of the barksdale family, she's Avon's sister, he's Avon's nephew.



Yeah. Her greed for the drug money lifestyle overshadowed whatever maternal instincts she might have had for her son.

Which is why I brought it up in contradistinction to Omar, the goodhearted drug dealer with the good family relationship.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> I am sure you would have found some other pointless reason to dislike him.


 

I'm beggining to wonder if JC2 is watching for enjoyment or for argument ammo


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm beggining to wonder if JC2 is watching for enjoyment or for argument ammo



Argument Ammo, for sure. 

I dislike Nicky Sobotka because he walks funny.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> I am sure you would have found some other pointless reason to dislike him.



I wanted to like Frank. He started out ok. Then, he just kept staring when he was thinking, and overemoting when supposedly emotional.

There are good actors in the series. As I said earlier, the Cuddy character is well done. The fat cigar smoking cop is growing on me. Rawls is well done. etc etc. But some of the main characters aren't very good actors, imo. Frank is one. McNulty is another.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Of course you _wanted_ to. 

But all you could think of was his sweaty brow. 

I am just glad you have these deep insights, it has really opened my eyes.

Have you ever considered that over-emoting is an essential part of his character?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> lips are pursed, brows furrowed. fwiw



You're right. 'Purse his brow'. 

What was I thinking?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm beggining to wonder if JC2 is watching for enjoyment or for argument ammo



I would never have watched it but for U75. My antennae start to quiver when anything gets that much uncritcal adulation. It's a cultural phenomenon.

So I'm watching it to see what all the fuss is about. And because of its stature, it deserves a higher level of critique. Also, I used to write movie reviews, so dissecting plot, characterization, acting etc is something I do almost unconsciously when I watch this sort of thing.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

I am wondering whether JC2 is just high.

It is like a stoner's analysis.

CRIME DOESN'T PAY

OMAR IS ACTUALLY GOOD

If that is all you are getting from it, that is a real shame.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I would never have watched it but for U75. My antennae start to quiver when anything gets that much uncritcal adulation. It's a cultural phenomenon.
> 
> So I'm watching it to see what all the fuss is about. And because of its stature, it deserves a higher level of critique. Also, I used to write movie reviews, so dissecting plot, characterization, acting etc is something I do almost unconsciously when I watch this sort of thing.



You used to write movie reviews? What for? The JC2 family newsletter?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Argument Ammo, for sure.
> 
> I dislike Nicky Sobotka because he walks funny.



That's fair enough. I think Nick was the best done character of the 'Sobotka family'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You're right. 'Purse his brow'.
> 
> What was I thinking?


 

easy done. It is the same sort of clenching of a facial area as a furrowing of the brow *furrows lips*


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> You used to write movie reviews? What for? The JC2 family newsletter?



No, I actually got paid for it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> It is like a stoner's analysis.
> 
> CRIME DOESN'T PAY
> 
> OMAR IS ACTUALLY GOOD.



I'd agree, which makes me wonder why the writers didn't put more into it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No, I actually got paid for it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'd agree, which makes me wonder why the writers didn't put more into it.



I think it is probably more your problem, than the writers.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's fair enough. I think Nick was the best done character of the 'Sobotka family'.



I actually really liked Ziggy. The annoying little cunt that he was.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I would never have watched it but for U75. My antennae start to quiver when anything gets that much uncritcal adulation. It's a cultural phenomenon.
> 
> So I'm watching it to see what all the fuss is about. And because of its stature, it deserves a higher level of critique. Also, I used to write movie reviews, so dissecting plot, characterization, acting etc is something I do almost unconsciously when I watch this sort of thing.


 

I'd also reccomend Generation Kill to you then. Same writer, only it's a dramatisation of his accompanying a first Recon Marine group at the bleeding edge of the Iraq 2 assault. 
only a short run- 8-9 eps iirc


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh, and FWIW, there has been plenty of intelligent critique of The Wire on here. Probably more than any other TV program or film. The thread about series 5 is particularly good.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> I think it is probably more your problem, than the writers.



Do you, now?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do you, now?



It is definitely what it sounds like.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Oh, and FWIW, there has been plenty of intelligent critique of The Wire on here. Probably more than any other TV program or film. The thread about series 5 is particularly good.



Always room for some more. 

I haven't read the season five thread, because I haven't watched it yet. Is it actual critique?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> It is definitely what it sounds like.



Well, I think the premise is not so much simplistic as old news, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> I actually really liked Ziggy. The annoying little cunt that he was.


 

he reminded me of me uncomfortably in the 'weedy serial fuck up' aspect.

I don't hacve his runaway mouth tho, lord be praised


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Always room for some more.
> 
> I haven't read the season five thread, because I haven't watched it yet. Is it actual critique?



And yes, there is plenty of actual critique. 

There have been several threads of actual critique.

This isn't one one of them.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, I think the premise is not so much simplistic as old news, but that's just my opinion.



Its a very poor opinion.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> This isn't one one of them.



Stop contributing, then.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Stop contributing, then.



It would be better all round if you stopped instead.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> It would be better all round if you stopped instead.



What's more likely to happen is this: as I continue to watch the show, I'll continue to comment.

What's at issue here is a tv show, after all.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What's more likely to happen is this: as I continue to watch the show, I'll continue to comment.



I only hope that you can develop something beyond the one dimensional view that you have now.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> I only hope that you can develop something beyond the one dimensional view that you have now.



My view will stretch to accommodate the dimensions of the thing being viewed.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> My view will stretch to accommodate the dimensions of the thing being viewed.



Well, you have really stretched yourself so far. 

What other kind of critiques can we hope for in the future? 

SCHOOL IS BAD

or maybe

BEING MAYOR IS HARD

or something else really deep and amazing?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Well, you have really stretched yourself so far.
> 
> What other kind of critiques can we hope for in the future?
> 
> ...



Before you get too worked up, repeat after me:

"It's a tv show"


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Before you get too worked up, repeat after me:
> 
> "It's a tv show"



Yeh it is. 

I don't really know why you need to point that out though.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Yeh it is.
> 
> I don't really know why you need to point that out though.



I'm trying to help you keep your blood pressure under control. I don't want to see you getting too upset over something so trivial.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm trying to help you keep your blood pressure under control. I don't want to see you getting too upset over something so trivial.



You have used the blood pressure card too many times before.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2008)

What films did you review johnny?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What films did you review johnny?



With the kind of analysis he has shown here, I am only surprised that he has not carried it on as a career.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2008)

Did you do the poseidon adventure with ernest borgnine JC?


----------



## mhendo (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Something suggests to me that for the amount of time you'd have spent there, the black ghetto of Baltimore might just as well have been in Uzbekistan.


And yet you somehow understand it? Give me a fucking break. Also, i seem to remember that it was YOU who first implied that one's arguments about _The Wire_ were somehow tied to whether or not one lives in Baltimore. Don't bring it up and then pretend that it's unimportant.

I made my post on the assumption that you have genuine arguments to make, and weren't just being a contrary dickweed to piss people off. It's clear that i was wrong about that.

Also, fuck off with all the smileys, you retarded fucking jackoff. And what's with the dozens of separate posts? Are you on a post-padding party or something? Or is it just too difficult for you to compose multiple paragraphs at once?





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Also, I used to write movie reviews....


Sure you did, pet.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Did you do the poseidon adventure with ernest borgnine JC?



No.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Also, i seem to remember that it was YOU who first implied that one's arguments about _The Wire_ were somehow tied to whether or not one lives in Baltimore..



You remember it wrong then.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Also, fuck off with all the smileys, you retarded fucking jackoff..



Uh oh: tv discusser is going postal.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> I made my post on the assumption that you have genuine arguments to make, and weren't just being a contrary dickweed to piss people off. It's clear that i was wrong about that..



No, that's something you're not wrong about. 

Everything I've said here about the Wire, is what I actually think. Sorry if it isn't what you like to hear.


----------



## Riklet (Dec 31, 2008)

It's fucking brilliant, one of the best shows i've ever seen.  My dad's an author, and he loves it, always raves away about they manage to draw together so many complex and varied plot lines in so few scenes, n how he wishes it was as easy on paper! 

I've not watched series 5 yet though, i'm waiting it out for a bit.  Seriously, I recommend it hugely as a show, and nah I don't think it's overrated/overhyped at all, but inevitably people are going to (especially on urban)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Btw, hendo, you didn't answer: in your eight years in Baltimore, how often did you visit the black 'western district'?

Something you should understand. If we're talking about things, and I start to get a sense that the righteous indignation is being brought out, I'm more likely to respond differently than if it's just a spirited discussion about something that is ultimately a trivial thing.

There are topics in this world that matter. The Israeli/Arab issue, for example: people can be forgiven if their tempers flare over something like that.

But with entertainments, like movies, tv, music, it doesn't matter, but part of the pleasure, is discussing them. That is, so long as righteous indignation doesn't creep in. When it does, all that happens is that the righteously indignant, shows him/herself up to be a schmuck.


----------



## Flashman (Dec 31, 2008)

The trouble is with you JC is that you've become a Phil Dwyer (or maybe he became you ) and you're always the boy who cried wolf now. A rod for your own back I'm afraid, but you'll have to live with that I guess. 

I'm no angel mind.

Interesting to go back to the Sopranos which you mentioned earlier, I remember on one of The Wire threads somebody mentioned that in a single one hour ep of Sopranos they had a wire tap up on yer man (I hasten to add I ain't seen it but it seem to be the type of nonsense that goes on in shows) and then down within the hour.

Sums it up for me really.

And now to bed.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Flashman said:


> The trouble is with you JC is that you've become a Phil Dwyer (or maybe he became you ) and you're always the boy who cried wolf now. A rod for your own back I'm afraid, but you'll have to live with that I guess. .



Depends on the topic, innit?

If the thread was about the Sopranos, I'd be singing its praises.

If you can point out some threads where I've voiced a dishonest opinion, I'd be interested in seeing which ones they were.

Disagreeing with people is different from 'crying wolf'.


----------



## Pie 1 (Dec 31, 2008)

Flashman said:


> The trouble is with you JC is that you've become a Phil Dwyer



Oh Jesus - don't flatter him 

At least Dwyer has genuine intelligence & wit.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Uh oh: tv discusser is going postal.



No Johnny, it's simply that you are a prize twat.
And a really rather boring & simple twat to boot.

Oh look, here's Johnny! Thread'll be bored to death by morning.

80,000 posts & you still make a total arse of yourself at every turn.
Bless.


----------



## El Jefe (Dec 31, 2008)

and the cold dead hand of JC2 ruins yet another thread.


dick


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 31, 2008)

I've just finished series 3. Still great drama, with so many good characters. I was watching an episode of the Inspector Lynley Mysteries just before Christmas and one of the main characters was played by Stringer Bell. No wonder he left the UK to get some meatier roles in the US.


----------



## mhendo (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8535277]You remember it wrong then.:)[/QUOTE]Here is you said:


> Btw, hendo, you didn't answer: in your eight years in Baltimore, how often did you visit the black 'western district'?


What do you mean "you didn't answer"? You never asked me the question before the post i just quoted. All you did earlier was make some smarmy allegation that didn't deserve a response.

As for my forays into the 'western district," they were not that frequent. Probably no more than a few occasions in all the time i lived in Baltimore. Of course, in your puerile mind, that fact probably has some major significance, but all that would demonstrate is your stupidity.

First, much as this might surprise you, the 'western district' is not the only black area in Baltimore, nor is it the only area that has drug problems. In a city that is two-thirds black, you will find African Americans in many different neighborhoods. If i didn't spend enough time in those neighborhoods to suit you, i'm afraid i'll just have to live with that. 

One of the academic tasks i undertook while living in Baltimore was some work for my university. The goal of the university was to set up a type of database or clearing house for sources in African American history in the Baltimore area, and i was given the job of undertaking the initial, exploratory research. This involved visits to places like the Baltimore City Archives, various universities and libraries in the city, as well as a number of black churches and other local institutions. That involved some trips to the west side of town, and to other black neighborhoods.

During the Fall semester this year, i co-taught a course at my university on civil rights and student activism in post-war America, and it was the first course at the university to incorporate school children from the Baltimore public school system. We had a dozen regular undergraduates, and a dozen students from different Baltimore public schools in the class, and one of the tasks of the students was to do research in their own neighborhoods on issues related to civil rights and activism. My co-teacher for the course was a local African American guy who runs a small non-profit arts-based organization that caters to at-risk youth in Baltimore; we have become good friends, and he taught me a lot about what goes on in the neighborhoods he serves. He's the same guy i described in my previous post, who was threatened with a gun by a drug dealer when he wanted to get into his office one day.

A friend of mine is a teacher who has spent her last few years in one of the city's toughest schools. This is a school where they send the problem children from the _rest_ of the Baltimore Public School system, so i'll leave it to you to imagine what sorts of problems she faces every day. Another friend of mine works in health research and did much of his work on the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases in Baltimore and Detroit.

I never claimed to be the world's greatest expert on the Baltimore drug scene, or on the poor black neighborhoods that are so terribly affected by it. But the fact is that i spent 8 years in the city, following the murder rate, listening to the news, and generally taking an interest in what was going on in Baltimore. I also have friends and acquaintances who were directly involved in some of these issues. 

All this does not make me especially smart, or noble, or special, but it does mean that i probably have a little more knowledge about what was going on in that city than your average person from outside.

Anyway, i'm done with you now. As i said earlier, you're welcome to your opinion of _The Wire_. As for your comments that "it's only a TV show," the fact is that i'm not at all concerned about your opinion of the show, per se. The only thing that gets me annoyed is your wilful ignorance and your self-righteous twatism. And that would no doubt be the same, no matter what the topic of conversation.


----------



## 8den (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm trying to help you keep your blood pressure under control. I don't want to see you getting too upset over something so trivial.



No Johnny, dig up!


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

Another excellent post, mhendo.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

8den said:


> No Johnny, dig up!



He does seem to have blood pressure on his mind a lot. 

I think the only time he ever raises it in others is when they are laughing at his poor trolling and ignorance.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Anyway, i'm done with you now. As i said earlier, *you're welcome to your opinion of The Wire.* As for your comments that "it's only a TV show," the fact is that i'm not at all concerned about your opinion of the show, per se. The only thing that gets me annoyed is your wilful ignorance and your self-righteous twatism. And that would no doubt be the same, no matter what the topic of conversation.



Well, thanks for that.  It's my opinion that it isn't the worst tv show I've seen by far, but definitely has some flaws. Even so, I plan to watch the last two seasons, and see how it all pans out.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> and the cold dead hand of JC2 ruins yet another thread.
> 
> 
> dick



Happy New Year, el Jefe.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> <snip>
> 
> Also, fuck off with all the smileys, you retarded fucking jackoff.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

p.s. @ hendo:  Given what american universities charge foreign students, you must be fucking rolling in it, if you could afford eight years of university there.


----------



## 8den (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> p.s. @ hendo:  Given what american universities charge foreign students, you must be fucking rolling in it, if you could afford eight years of university there.



Never heard of a scholarship you tard?


----------



## Pie 1 (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> p.s. @ hendo:  Given what american universities charge foreign students, you must be fucking rolling in it, if you could afford eight years of university there.



You utter cock.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

None of you understand. 

Now that Johnny has pointed that out, it invalidates all of mhendo's opinions and arguments.


----------



## 8den (Dec 31, 2008)

Pie 1 said:


> You utter cock.



80,000 plus posts and he just falls deeper and deeper into the asshole of stupid.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Dec 31, 2008)

8den said:


> Never heard of a scholarship you tard?


Actually to me it sounded like mhendo was describing post grad work he may have been funded for, but nevermind, not really that important. 

I guess there's two issues going on. a) is the programme "good", and b) what degree of accuracy does it have. a) is always going to be a matter of personal opinion, where as b) is going to be a bit more concrete. Personally I've found mhendo and 8den's posts on this thread interesting because they suggest that it is somewhat representative of real life in Baltamore. Further to that, IMO some of the messages about corruption seem more universal to corrupt systems everwhere. 



Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Crime doesn't pay.


If I was going to pick out the ultra simplified message I personally think it's more like "everything's totally fucked". 

Btw, 5th season is definitely the weak one so Johnny, you're going to love that one! Despite season 5 being way too OTT in places though, it does still have a powerful overall message IMO, even though that is pretty simple once you've spotted it.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 31, 2008)

It's not like Police Work pays either, nor does Manual Labour, nor does Education and nor does Politics or Jouranlism. Like she said - eveyone's fucked, and everyone passes the shit around till it sticks.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Dec 31, 2008)

Tbf the message is more like "everyone is fucked, but some are more fucked than others".

Politics obviously pays if you're rich, manipulative and sneaky enough.


----------



## mhendo (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> p.s. @ hendo:  Given what american universities charge foreign students, you must be fucking rolling in it, if you could afford eight years of university there.


See, *JC*, you are the perfect example Alexander Pope's old maxim, "a little learning is a dangerous thing." You know just enough to sustain a belief in your own knowledge, but not enough to recognize your own ignorance.

Among the Tier 1 research universities in the United States (a group of 50-70 schools that includes the Ivy League, other top private universities like Stanford, Rice, and New York University, and prestigious public universities like UC Berkeley and the University of Michigan), virtually all PhD students are funded at least partially by fellowships, and in most cases are fully funded, including tuition and a living allowance.

Universities do this because they realize that in most cases, a PhD is not a path to riches, and that if they want to attract the best students and continue their research and teaching missions, they need to provide financial assistance. While taking on a $250,000 debt might be OK if you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer, a PhD in history or English or philosophy is unlikely to ever make enough money to pay back that sort of loan, and so an absence of fellowships would dry up the pool of graduate students.

Like many other top research institutions, my university (the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore) provided me with a full ride on tuition for five years, as well as a stipend (i.e., living allowance) for four years. In addition, i picked up a couple of small outside fellowships, and also took on some paid work within the university (e.g., teaching the course on Civil Rights; doing the research on sources in African American history). Despite all that, my wife and i (she was a grad student there too) have still had to go into some debt in order to fund our studies.

To the extent that my financial situation is any of your fucking business, i can confidently assure you that i am not "fucking rolling in it." Of course, your whole point in making that accusation was to try to undermine my credibility as a source on Baltimore, which further demonstrates what a retarded douchebag you are.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I guess there's two issues going on. a) is the programme "good", and b) what degree of accuracy does it have. a) is always going to be a matter of personal opinion, where as b) is going to be a bit more concrete..



I think the issues are, what is the program trying to 'tell' us, does it doe it in an interesting and or novel way; and how does the program stack up as an 'entertainment', ie, how much artistic creativity and merit does it display?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> .
> 
> Among the Tier 1 research universities in the United States (a group of 50-70 schools that includes the Ivy League, other top private universities like Stanford, Rice, and New York University, and prestigious public universities like UC Berkeley and the University of Michigan), virtually all PhD students are funded at least partially by fellowships, and in most cases are fully funded, including tuition and a living allowance..



It took you eight years to do a PhD?

The only knowledge I have of the process was obtained when I was accepted into an Ivy League school back when looking at where to go for my post grad studies, and even with my minority status, which mattered a lot at least back then, I would still have come home a man very much in debt; and that was for a two year program. 

The only other knowledge was when my kid went through a similar process about three years ago, and once we realized that the tuition for her as a foreign student would be $45,000 per year, the decision was made for the kid to continue studies here at home.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It took you eight years to do a PhD?





> Depending on the specific field of study, completion of a Ph.D. program usually takes four to eight years of study after the Bachelor's Degree; those students who begin a Ph.D. program with a Master's Degree may complete their Ph.D. degree a year or two sooner.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhD#United_States

How long did you think a PhD takes?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Btw, 5th season is definitely the weak one so Johnny, you're going to love that one! .



Well, at least you have the stones and honesty to admit that the program might not be totally perfect.

It doesn't thrill me to hear that. As I've said, I thought the second season was very engaging, so I know they have it in them. It would have been nice to see the whole thing go out on a high note.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, at least you have the stones and honesty to admit that the program might not be totally perfect.
> 
> It doesn't thrill me to hear that. As I've said, I thought the second season was very engaging, so I know they have it in them. It would have been nice to see the whole thing go out on a high note.



FWIW, I have never claimed it is perfect. Not to ruin anything, but I was also disappointed with S5. At least when I first watched it. I think I liked it more, the more I thought about it afterwards.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> See, *JC*, you are the perfect example Alexander Pope's old maxim, "a little learning is a dangerous thing."



As Pope also said, 'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike, yet each believes his own.'


----------



## mhendo (Dec 31, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhD#United_States
> 
> How long did you think a PhD takes?


There was a guy in my program who took about 15 years. Admittedly, that's an outlying case, but the average in my field (history) across the US is about 7 years. 

In my program there was no credit or advanced status given for those who already had a Master's degree. Everyone accepted into the program still had to do the same two years of field reading (seminar-style coursework) and comprehensive exams (leading to a Masters) before moving on to the dissertation phase.

Also, in some disciplines things are made even more difficult by the need for learning how to read multiple languages. People doing European or Latin American history were required to demonstrate reading proficiency in at least two languages other than English. A friend who did medieval history had to do intensive study in Latin, and in German, during her first few years.


Dillinger4 said:


> FWIW, I have never claimed it is perfect.


Precisely.

Hell, in this thread i don't think i've even claimed it was great, although i think it is. My one and only reason for entering the thread was to refute some of the factually inaccurate crap that *JC2* was spouting. 





Dillinger4 said:


> Not to ruin anything, but I was also disappointed with S5. At least when I first watched it. I think I liked it more, the more I thought about it afterwards.


I was sort of the opposite. I really got into it while i was watching it, but after it finished i felt a vague sense of disappointment, and the more i think about it the more some of the Season 5 plot developments seem over the top and contrived. Still, the worst season of the _The Wire_ was better than most television, IMO.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Admittedly, that's an outlying case, but the average in my field (history) across the US is about 7 years. O.



In general, for someone with a Master's degree? I don't think so.



> Four years has become the magic number for many graduate programmes in the United States and Europe. Eugene Russo explains the logic behind the maths.



http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nj7006-382a.html


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> People doing European or Latin American history were required to demonstrate reading proficiency in at least two languages other than English.



Is that what you were studying in Baltimore?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> Hell, in this thread i don't think i've even claimed it was great, although i think it is.



Well, that was sort of implied, by the length of your posts, your impassioned phrasing, and your use of invective.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

If ever a thread deserved a facepalm, it is now.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> My one and only reason for entering the thread was to refute some of the factually inaccurate crap that *JC2* was spouting.



Most of what I've said is opinion.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> If ever a thread deserved a facepalm, it is now.



You're drunk to the point of being at a loss for words then?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

I am not drunk, but I am lost for words at this point, yes.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> I am not drunk, but I am lost for words at this point, yes.



It's not that difficult, really.

Which reminds me: I have to hit the video store before it closes, to pick up Season 4.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

Sometimes a facepalm is all you can do.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Sometimes a facepalm is all you can do.



I can usually find words to express myself.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 31, 2008)

And sometimes a facepalm is all you can do. This is one of those times.


----------



## mhendo (Dec 31, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> In general, for someone with a Master's degree? I don't think so.
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nj7006-382a.html


You really are unbelievable.

Not only do your figures come from a journal that specializes in the biological and life sciences, but you can't even read your own link.

From *your own fucking article*:





> US graduate programmes, especially in life sciences, have grown excruciatingly long in recent decades. *Eight years is not unusual.* According to Jim Voytuk, senior programme officer at the US National Academy of Sciences, the average time to PhD since the 1970s has increased by nearly a year in chemistry and physics and nearly 18 months in the biosciences. *In 1973–82, the average in biosciences was 6.3 years; for 1993–2002, the average was 7.7 years. In physics, time to degree increased from 6.6 to 7.4 years, in chemistry from 5.8 to 6.7 years.*


And as for my own field, that of history, let's see what the American Historical Association, the peak professional body representing professional and academic historians in the United States, has to say:





> Keep in mind that the average history doctoral student spends about 8.5 years pursuing the Ph.D., so this should be undertaken with a clear-eyed awareness.


If anything, my previous post *underestimated* the average time to complete a history PhD in the US.

It's now clear to me that you are either so stupid that you're not worth arguing with at all, or you're a very smart troll who is posting merely to get a rise out of people. If you're the latter, i regret to admit that i've spent too much time feeding your thirst for controversy, but that ends right now.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2008)

mhendo said:


> , but that ends right now.



Does this mean no more mega-posts?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 1, 2009)

Just finishing up on the Third season. I thought the season started really poorly: it was a chore to sit through.

But these final episodes have pulled it together. First of all, they've delivered some little plot surprises that worked: e.g. Rawls in the bar.

But most importantly, they finally allowed the viewer to come to care about some of the characters. You're not just watching them perform anymore. The first one this happened to, was McNulty. The whole boy toy bit is done really well, and it allows the character to step outside the glib persona that frankly, the actor didn't pull off too well. I came to like and believe McNulty for these episodes.

Also, the Major: Colvin. You care about him. You believe that he cares, and you are concerned for what will happen to him. Another is Cuddy, and his gym. Finally, you get to glimpse beyond 'the game', through the eyes of a character seeking redemption himself. For awhile, you see humanity, and with it, the utter tragedy of the destruction of young lives.

And perhaps best of all, the mutual betrayal between Barksdale and Stringer. Tbh, if the season had ended with the cops busting Stringer, I wouldn't have watched another season. But instead, the writers build the a scenario that could be in shakespeare. It was superior television. One of the bedeviling things about this show, has been the glimpses of great tv that we'd get given, only to be torn down by the glaring deficiencies. It was rewarding to see it pull together and work so well.


One of the things that bugged me about the series to start with, was to see the devastation, the blighted lives of inner city blacks, seemingly reduced to two dimensionality, to cartoonish characterization. It's still there, in characters like Bubbles, but they've finally brought humanity into the equation. With the humanity, can come the utter sadness that should be the major response to the grotesquerie that is allowed to go on in the american underclass.

I hope the fourth season can live up to what they've managed to accomplish in these past episodes.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 1, 2009)

mhendo said:


> You really are unbelievable.



Nah, he's just a really sad cunt.


I've never liked you on here, Johnny. But sometimes you really focus that opinion for me so sharply.

Jesus man, give your wife & kids some of the time you spend on here ffs - (unless they're also so fucking bored by you as well.)

Are you not ever slightly ashamed of yourself when you walk past the hallway mirror after another night of 50 or so twat brained posts?

I really don't know why I care. I think it's genuine pity.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> At least Dwyer has genuine intelligence & wit.



Don't forget the stunning good looks.


----------



## 8den (Jan 1, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> Nah, he's just a really sad cunt.
> 
> 
> I've never liked you on here, Johnny. But sometimes you really focus that opinion for me so sharply.
> ...




We have an early entry for post of the year 2009.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 1, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> Nah, he's just a really sad cunt.
> 
> 
> I've never liked you on here, Johnny. But sometimes you really focus that opinion for me so sharply.
> ...



Happy New Year, Pie.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2009)

For anyone interested in the Hamsterdam idea presented on the show, you might be interested in the experience here in Vancouver.

Arguably it began in 1984. There's a neighborhood off downtown called the West End, and it had become a popular hooker stroll. The problem was that it had a high population density, with a mix of newcomers to the city, seniors, gay people, etc. The addition of a large number of hookers working the streets, along with the huge influx of johns and their cars coming in from the suburbs, wasn't working. Crime went way up in the area, along with the beginning of decay: litter, vandalism etc.

Although prostitution is legal per se in Canada, communicating for the purpose, remains illegal. Standard law enforcement, ie, undercover entrapment, roundups etc, wasn't working.

The Chief Justice did something novel. He granted a civil injunction, creating a 'no-go' area, west of Granville Street, meaning the hookers couldn't go into the West End. But he also advised that, in essence, the law would turn a blind eye if they stayed to the east of the line, but that the law would come down heavy if they strayed back in.

It worked. The hookers left the West End, and concentrated in a number of commercial streets to the east. Enforcement amounted to traffic control, and control of any violence. The West End returned to being the calm neighborhood it had been before that. This arrangement has held essentially ever since.

The more recent experiment, is known as the Four Pillars Strategy. The area around Hastings and Main has resembled Hamsterdam in terms of urban blight, obvious and omnipresent drug use and dealing, etc. Once again, heavy policing alone wasn't getting the job done.

What the city did, was create a safe injection site. It is run by the city, and is staffed by nurses. Addicts can come there with their drugs, and inject in a safe environment, with medical personnel on hand if necessary. There's no moralizing etc, just a safe and clean environment. As well, there is a program for handing out clean crack pipes and tubing to those who want them. Needle exchanges and other outreach programs are highly visible in the area.

The City has had a lot of flak over this. The Conservative govt in Ottawa has vowed to shut it down, and has tried all sorts of threats of withdrawal of funding etc, to get  the City to enforce the letter of the law. It accuses Vancouver of legalizing drug use. The city has fought back with favourable publicity from around the world, as well as numerous studies by doctors etc, showing the level of harm reduction that has resulted.

The federal govt has backed down for the moment, but it's likely that this experiment's days are numbered, so long as the conservative govt remains in ottawa, and especially if that govt gets a majority.

http://vancouver.ca/fourpillars/

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/11/20/injection-study.html?ref=rss

Researchers and drug workers from around the world, including people who post on this site, have come to Vancouver to observe this experiment.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 2, 2009)

There was a similar experiment here in Liverpool, recently, I think. I will go and find a link. It sounds very similar to the example you just gave.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> Jesus man, give your wife & kids some of the time you spend on here ffs - (unless they're also so fucking bored by you as well.)



Why not give you an answer?

My kids are mid teen at the youngest. They actually have lives of their own, and when I'm at home, I'm usually not on the computer, because they've kicked me off and are using it themselves. 

My wife's occupation is such that our hours of work aren't the same. As a result, there are a number of times during the week when she's working, and I'm not.

One of the advantages of getting older, is you actually have a little more time for yourself to to what you want which in my case, is to be here with nice people like  you. 

Watched some more Wire.

How does street addict Bubbles afford such a big hat wardrobe? 

Profound Omar thought of the day: " How do you expect to run with the wolves at night, if you spend all day sparring with the puppies?" 

Puppies? Maybe Omar has renounced his gayhood...


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 2, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Happy New Year, Pie.



Sod off, Canuck.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2009)

As Johnny Canuck rightly says, Hamsterdam-style eperiments have often been tried in North America.  Visitors to Los Angeles's Skid Row (the original so-named area) and San Francisco's Tenderloin, and until recently NYC's Lower East Side will know what I mean.  The cops do occasionally bust people there, but very rarely, and usually outsiders.  You can pretty much do what you want in such places, short of murder.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2009)

Of course, you can't do anything like they do in Hamsterdam in the real Amsterdam any more.  I was there last week, the place is now about as permissive as Tenby on a wet bank holiday.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 2, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> As Johnny Canuck rightly says, Hamsterdam-style eperiments have often been tried in North America.  Visitors to Los Angeles's Skid Row (the original so-named area) and San Francisco's Tenderloin, and until recently NYC's Lower East Side will know what I mean.  The cops do occasionally bust people there, but very rarely, and usually outsiders.  You can pretty much do what you want in such places, short of murder.



The one thing that's fairly unique about the Vancouver experience, is the Insite safe injection site, that is run by and sanctioned by the civic government.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The one thing that's fairly unique about the Vancouver experience, is the Insite safe injection site, that is run by and sanctioned by the civic government.



They have them in Mexico too, in some of the zonas de tolerencia.  More and more Latin American countries are establishing such "zones," and even decriminalizing all drugs.  Just as the West is moving in the opposite direction....


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Halfway report: season four.

It strikes me that to a British audience, this series might be a real eye opener about urban american life; but to anyone who gets US news feeds etc as daily fare, there's nothing really new here.

There's one message we're being given. After the white flight, blacks took over the politics of many cities. The message is that blacks aren't up to the job. They are incapable of running an honest, efficient civic government.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 4, 2009)

fuck me.


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Halfway report: season four.
> 
> It strikes me that to a British audience, this series might be a real eye opener about urban american life; but to anyone who gets US news feeds etc as daily fare, there's nothing really new here.
> 
> There's one message we're being given. After the white flight, blacks took over the politics of many cities. The message is that blacks aren't up to the job. They are incapable of running an honest, efficient civic government.



Oh, is THAT what it's about? 

NOW I understand.

Phew etc.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 4, 2009)

This is literally the most rubbish one dimensional view of The Wire that I have seen.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Dillinger4 said:


> This is literally the most rubbish one dimensional view of The Wire that I have seen.



Like: literally? 

Not allegorically, or  tangentially?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

El Jefe said:


> Oh, is THAT what it's about?
> 
> NOW I understand.
> 
> Phew etc.



Sooner or later, the penny was bound to drop for you.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 4, 2009)

_Literally_.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

One thing that's made this difficult, is what I call the 'Wire Phenomenon'.

It's the propensity to fall asleep while watching an episode.

It happens to both myself and my wife, even if we're watching episodes independently.

There are episodes I've started three times in order to get through. My wife thinks it's something to do with the muddled nature of the dialogue. It's similar to what used to happen when I had to read textbooks.

But: I soldier on.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 4, 2009)

You are probably boring yourself into sleep with the one dimensional insights you keep making.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Dillinger4 said:


> You are probably boring yourself into sleep with the one dimensional insights you keep making.



That makes a lot of sense.

Literally.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

I only want one thing out of this series: please, let the Bubbles character be bumped off.

Please.

[My daughter tells me, though, that in the end, we see Bubbles eating christmas dinner with his family. Really, what else would I expect?]


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 4, 2009)

Wait until you see what happens with one of the other characters. 

I won't say any more than that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Dillinger4 said:


> Wait until you see what happens with one of the other characters.
> 
> I won't say any more than that.



Does Bubbles get hurt?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

In today's episode, Omar ends up in jail. Instead of being instantly killed, as would really happen, two giant guardian angels appear out of nowhere to assist him.

See: deus ex machina.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 4, 2009)

Fucking hell.

This thread is so dull I am going to put it on ignore. 

And I mean dull in the sense of being boring and in the sense of not being very sharp.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Dillinger4 said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> This thread is so dull I am going to put it on ignore.
> 
> And I mean dull in the sense of being boring and in the sense of not being very sharp.



Is there a way to put a thread on ignore, apart from simply not opening it, that is?

And does one get points for announcing the desire to flounce from a thread?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Huggy Bear doll flounces from a thread:


----------



## Flashman (Jan 4, 2009)

I want an Omar doll.

Yo.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Flashman said:


> I want an Omar doll.
> 
> Yo.



While trying to search one up for you, I came up with this down syndrome doll.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> In today's episode, Omar ends up in jail. Instead of being instantly killed, as would really happen, two giant guardian angels appear out of nowhere to assist him.
> 
> See: deus ex machina.



for what little it is worth, given your obvious willingness to try and annoy anyone who likes the wire (which, for one reason or another, is pretty much everyone who has seen it on this website, with a few un-notable exceptions...), the show allows itself a fair bit of dramatic liscence.  Even the bits taken from real life, such as the opening of seasion 1, obviously try to take some kind of theatrical liberties in order to fit in with the themes and plot.  

With regard to omar getting out in series 4, specifically, I see this as (spoiler, possibly), mostly, a plot device for the whole fat face andre thing, which is partly a chance for prop joe to attempt to court marlo, and, slightly less, another example of marlos ruthlessness.  It also gives the bunk/omar plot strand some sort of closure.  In any case, to use it as a reason to slate the show is getting a little desperate - seriously, how many well liked, quality shows don't have at least a-stretching plot turn?


----------



## D (Jan 4, 2009)

I'm getting ready to watch it - I've never seen any of the episodes.

I'd like to put in a very enthusiastic recommendation for Six Feet Under.  Weeds is also pretty great.

Right now I'm digging 30 Rock, which is straight-up episodic, Tina Fey comedic genius.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

D said:


> I'm getting ready to watch it - I've never seen any of the episodes.
> 
> I'd like to put in a very enthusiastic recommendation for Six Feet Under.  Weeds is also pretty great.
> 
> Right now I'm digging 30 Rock, which is straight-up episodic, Tina Fey comedic genius.



Maybe I'll try Weeds next...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Jon-of-arc said:


> for what little it is worth, given your obvious willingness to try and annoy anyone who likes the wire (which, for one reason or another, is pretty much everyone who has seen it on this website, with a few un-notable exceptions...), the show allows itself a fair bit of dramatic liscence.  Even the bits taken from real life, such as the opening of seasion 1, obviously try to take some kind of theatrical liberties in order to fit in with the themes and plot.
> 
> With regard to omar getting out in series 4, specifically, I see this as (spoiler, possibly), mostly, a plot device for the whole fat face andre thing, which is partly a chance for prop joe to attempt to court marlo, and, slightly less, another example of marlos ruthlessness.  It also gives the bunk/omar plot strand some sort of closure.  In any case, to use it as a reason to slate the show is getting a little desperate - seriously, how many well liked, quality shows don't have at least a-stretching plot turn?



It's the idea of verisimilitude. The less a show has of it, the less you can relate to it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Jon-of-arc said:


> for what little it is worth, given your obvious willingness to try and annoy anyone who likes the wire



What I've done is state my opinion of the show. The annoyance comes when the show's acolytes exhibit their disbelief that anyone can say such things.


----------



## D (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Maybe I'll try Weeds next...



Have you seen Arrested Development? I just found out there's a film version...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

D said:


> Have you seen Arrested Development? I just found out there's a film version...



No. There's also that western one: Deadwood.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

I don't usually watch this much tv. I'm doing the Wire to 'stay abreast of current cultural phenomena....'


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I only want one thing out of this series: please, let the Bubbles character be bumped off.
> 
> Please.




0/10

You dumb cunt.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's the idea of verisimilitude. The less a show has of it, the less you can relate to it.



well, fair enough, but the wire has been widely acknowledged as being one of the most realistic and well researched tv shows about.  a couple of conceits toward the fact that it is, after all, fiction should trouble no one...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> 0/10
> 
> You dumb cunt.



He tried to hang himself on an episode tonight, but wasn't successful.

Darn!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Jon-of-arc said:


> well, fair enough, but the wire has been widely acknowledged as being one of the most realistic and well researched tv shows about. ..



The verisimilitude is about plot development etc. It's about the unbelievability of guardian angels suddenly appearing to help him out in prison, when he's the ultimate loner, etc.

Btw, in fairness to the bubbles character, he got a lot more believable and sympathetic in how the whole bit after the suicide attempt was handled.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The verisimilitude is about plot development etc. It's about the unbelievability of guardian angels suddenly appearing to help him out in prison, when he's the ultimate loner, etc.
> 
> Btw, in fairness to the bubbles character, he got a lot more believable and sympathetic in how the whole bit after the suicide attempt was handled.



yeah, but it is fiction, which shoulldn't be forgotten.  Jesus, I can watch 24, prison break, buffy the vampire slayer and plenty of others without getting worked up about such things...


----------



## foo (Jan 4, 2009)

loads of spoilers, with no spoiler alerts....well done Johnny.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 4, 2009)

foo said:


> loads of spoilers, with no spoiler alerts....well done Johnny.



Ahh, give him a break. He's been very busy notching up almost 200 new posts in the past 48 hours. Those spoiler codes would eat into his precious posting bollocks time to much.





The cock.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Maybe I'll try Weeds next...



That's crap, that is.  Don't bother.  Deadwood is still the best.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> Ahh, give him a break. He's been very busy notching up almost 200 new posts in the past 48 hours. Those spoiler codes would eat into his precious posting bollocks time to much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just watch me get 400 in the next 48.

You can add that to your dossier on me.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 4, 2009)

Btw, I'm about 4 episodes into season 5. So far, I'd say it's doing the best for verisimilitude.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 5, 2009)

Jon-of-arc said:


> yeah, but it is fiction, which shoulldn't be forgotten.  Jesus, I can watch 24, prison break, buffy the vampire slayer and plenty of others without getting worked up about such things...



The Brothers Karamazov is fiction.

Issue 234 of Superman Comics is also fiction.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 5, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> verisimilitude.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The verisimilitude





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> for verisimilitude.



Uh-oh, Johnny's found a new big word to play with.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

I just finished Season 5! 

No more Wire! 

Whew.


I think Season 5 was pretty good. Good tv. Good suspense building sub plots. It's not their fault that they couldn't ultimately deliver.

When I'm watching the end  



Spoiler



, and McNulty is standing there having his little reverie outside his car, with the disoriented bum inside, and he's showing us what becomes of everyone, I couldn't help but think of the end of Animal House.

You know, at the end, they show cameo shots of all the main characters, with a little explanation underneath. Like John Belushi marries the cheerleader sorority bitch, and becomes 'State Senator Blutarsky'.

The Wire does the same thing.  Actually, now that I think about it, I think it was American Graffiti that first used this little device. Whatever becomes of the zany characters?

It also reminded me of another movie: It's A Mad Mad World. An ensemble comedy from back in the Sixties. Terry Thomas, Sid Ceasar, Ethel Merman, Joey Durante, Phil Silvers, etc.

At the end, everyone is running around, trying to find the money under the Big W, but nobody knows what it is. Then it hits them all, like a dead mackerel slapped right across the kisser.

The Wire slaps you with a fish across the kisser in the end, but, how else could this show end? It's the perfect sendoff: a zany, half incoherent chase, ending with the mackerel in the face.

I enjoyed watching the fifth season, and the final episode especially, in exactly the same way I enjoyed watching the final act of It's A Mad Mad World. 

Way to go, David Simon.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Looking the guy up and reading about him, you can understand why the final season held together well. He was a Sun reporter. 

The final season contained the story he really knew how to write: the story about his own job and experience. The dialogue in the newsroom wasn't awkward like a lot of the black and police dialogue, because it was the dialogue he knew.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

This is coming in bits and pieces, because it was the first day back after the holidays, after all, and I'm a little tired. Trying to get through those Wire episodes didn't help, either. 

Marlo Stanfield. You know who he was? Darth Maul. Really scary looking bad dude: you expect lots from him, but in the end, he might as well be a cigar store indian. Not much dialogue, and what he does say and do doesn't make a lot of sense anyway.

And at the end 



Spoiler



. Poor dumb nigger just can't take a good deal when it's handed to him. He can't handle that suit and tie white man jiveass bullshit. He's got to go back to the street and gangbang on the corner, because that's all his dumb little smooth pickaninny head can figure.

He can run a drug empire, and keep a dozen crime figures in line, but that boy just can't figure the white man's world. Poor kid. 

And in the end, what of the poor average Baltimore coonass? Fucked from both ends, most likely. Fucked up the ass by his own people selling him shit drugs on the corner, and fucked by a different class of his own people up at the mouth end, by them slick Senator Davis type bros, stealing in the name of the lord, equality, and the USA.

Just goes to show, leave them blacks to their own devices, and this is what they's bound to get up to.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I just finished Season 5!




Excellent. 
Fuck off now, eh?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> Excellent.
> Fuck off now, eh?



Happy New Year, Pie.


----------



## STFC (Jan 6, 2009)

I have to say, Johnny, that your take on it differs to mine somewhat. Maybe I just didn't _get it_, eh?

I like the fact that Marlo could have gone down the respectable route, but that wasn't what he wanted. It was what drove Stringer, but Marlo (like Avon) was "just a gangster, probably". Ultimately Marlo was offered what Stringer wanted more than anything, but he rejected it. I like that contrast between the two characters.

And what's that about the "poor average Baltimore coonass" (whatever one of those is)? Who does that refer to? Duqie started on the slippery slope to addiction, but Bubbles finally got clean. Michael became a stick-up kid, but Namond started a new life with the Colvins. 'The Game' carried on regardless - some got caught up in it, some managed to escape it, others chose to get involved in it. The players may change, there will always be somebody to take the place of anyone who falls by the wayside, but ultimately nothing changes. It's pretty bleak really.


----------



## Santino (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Just goes to show, leave them blacks to their own devices, and this is what they's bound to get up to.


Unlike the white characters, who all live happily ever after. Right.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Happy New Year, Pie.



Sod off, Canuck.


----------



## killer b (Jan 6, 2009)

watched the first 3 episodes last night, finally. i can confirm it rules.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

just got Season 5 dvd, which I'm sure will look even better than the dodgy downloads I had to watch sneakily while mrs b was in bed, so I'll finally be able to stop having to pretend not to have seen it!


----------



## kained&able (Jan 6, 2009)

kin hell the wire is racist now?

missed that the first 3 times i saw it.


dave(must pay more attention)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

STFC said:


> I have to say, Johnny, that your take on it differs to mine somewhat. Maybe I just didn't _get it_, eh?.



I don't really have any idea why you think whatever it is that you think.

Don't forget: it's a _tv show_.


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't really have any idea why you think whatever it is that you think.
> 
> Don't forget: I'm a _tiresome fatuous dick_.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

STFC said:


> I like the fact that Marlo could have gone down the respectable route, but that wasn't what he wanted. It was what drove Stringer, but Marlo (like Avon) was "just a gangster, probably". Ultimately Marlo was offered what Stringer wanted more than anything, but he rejected it. I like that contrast between the two characters..



Stringer was a well developed character. You understood why he did what he did, wanted what he wanted.

Marlo was too two-dimensional for us to be able to get inside his motivation.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

STFC said:


> And what's that about the "poor average Baltimore coonass" (whatever one of those is)? .



It was some colourful language meaning the poor black underclass of places like Baltimore. The message was that they are simply fodder for the black predators at either end: the drug dealers at one end, and the politicians, ministers etc at the other. 

The message is that left to their own devices, blacks will make a total mess of things.

The only politician in the show who seemed to really want to do some good, was white: Carcetti, and within two years, he was moving upstairs, and taking the white police commissioner, Rawls, with him. Left in Baltimore were the crooked and/or inefficient blacks, and the buffoonish whites, like the new Polish police commissioner.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 6, 2009)

While Carcetti was outside the machine he wanted to do good. Once he was mayor, he just got corrupted and compromised like the rest of them. Black or white.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Crispy said:


> While Carcetti was outside the machine he wanted to do good. Once he was mayor, he just got corrupted and compromised like the rest of them. Black or white.



His compromise consisted of trying to to 'right' things, with limited resources. The implication was that previous administrations had left the public purse hamstrung. That's why he had to choose between schools or policing.

In any event, he knew the writing was on the wall, and he'd have to leave, because the half life of a white politician in Baltimore was short.

Also, Carcetti was part of the machine when we met him: he was a city councillor.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 6, 2009)

He started off by saying policing would be different, that major crimes would get their due attention, and ended up playing the stats game just like his predecessor.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Imo, the writer put his opinion into the mouth of the voter whom Carcetti ran into in the street during the runup to the election. The man said, referring to blacks: 'They had their chance. Sure, when we ran things, we took one dollar out of three. But these moulis, they take two out of every three.'


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It was some colourful language meaning the poor black underclass of places like Baltimore. The message was that they are simply fodder for the black predators at either end: the drug dealers at one end, and the politicians, ministers etc at the other.
> 
> The message is that left to their own devices, blacks will make a total mess of things.
> 
> The only politician in the show who seemed to really want to do some good, was white: Carcetti, and within two years, he was moving upstairs, and taking the white police commissioner, Rawls, with him. Left in Baltimore were the crooked and/or inefficient blacks, and the buffoonish whites, like the new Polish police commissioner.



dear god, are you determined to show that you are an ignorant know nothing about every subject under the sun?

Stick to googling things you now nothing about, at least your ignorance then is kinda funny.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The only politician in the show who seemed to really want to do some good, was white: Carcetti, and within two years, he was moving upstairs, and taking the white police commissioner, Rawls, with him. Left in Baltimore were the crooked and/or inefficient blacks, and the buffoonish whites, like the new Polish police commissioner.



i don't know about that, i always got the impression that Royce wanted to do good as well when he started - iirc there are references to his pre election promises etc by Carcetti and others - but he, like Carcetti, ended up getting chewed up by the system.


----------



## Santino (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Imo, the writer put his opinion into the mouth of the voter whom Carcetti ran into in the street during the runup to the election. The man said, referring to blacks: 'They had their chance. Sure, when we ran things, we took one dollar out of three. But these moulis, they take two out of every three.'


Yawn. 2/10, must try harder.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 6, 2009)

all the characters are flawed and incapable of doing anything but ride the chaos of their lives as dictated by the institutions/organisations/societal backgrounds.

The only seemingly flawless character is Daniels, whose asceticism and morality are undermined by the rumors dogging his early career. There are no black/white good/evil or right/wrong judgments being made in the wire johnny, and trying to fit such simplistic interpretations on to such a complex show is doomed to failure


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 6, 2009)

astonishing, isn't that, that after almost unparalleled critical coverage by a broad range of media outlets, only our JC2 here has spotted the OBVIOUS racism in this series.

I reckon he's in line for an award, at least


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

there are no 'flawless' white characters either, not even carcetti. he was hardly a saint before the election, if johnny thinks he was, he wasn't watching very closely.  and, as you say, daniels is the most 'flawless' character, Colvin comes pretty damned close, Carver not too far behind.

All in all, accusations of 'Wire racism' could only come from an utter idiot


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Crispy said:


> He started off by saying policing would be different, that major crimes would get their due attention, and ended up playing the stats game just like his predecessor.



SPOILERS AHEAD

Another thought on this: it seems that in Simon's worldview, everyone is morally bankrupt. The question becomes what species of bankrupt, a person is.

Almost to a man, the black characters are thieves [I'm talking about the 'straight' side of the show, the cops, politicians etc]. There are of course exceptions, like the Deacon, but it turns out that even Daniels, aguably the most upright black character in the ensemble, has old potential corruption charges lurking in his past.

When Clay Davis is in danger of going down, he meets the black political gang: Nerese Campbell, Mayor Royce etc, and reminds them that if he goes down, they all go down.

As Crispy points out, Carcetti compromises his ideals etc, but his motivation appears to be a messiah complex: he can do good, but he has to stay in office to do so, and he might have to fudge numbers to stay in office.

McNulty messes with murder scenes in order to fake the serial killer, but once again, his motivation is to get money to allow 'police to do good police work'.

Once again, we're left with the impression that the blacks, for the most part, will use influence etc. to line their own pockets, while the whites - admittedly not all - go against morality in an midguided attempt to serve the public good.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> There are no black/white good/evil or right/wrong judgments being made in the wire johnny, and trying to fit such simplistic interpretations on to such a complex show is doomed to failure



It's impossible to understand urban life/politics in the US without the race aspect.


The Wire is set against the history of the White Flight of the late sixties/seventies, from the large urban, especially eastern centers, to the suburbs, leaving the poor behind. Given that the blacks were overrepresented amongst the poor, it meant that blacks in essence, inherited much of the eastern urban US. Almost by default, blacks ended up in civic govt and administration, and in the desire to have enough blacks to fill these positions, Equal Opportunity arose. Blacks got promotions over whites who were arguably better qualified.

There was even a trickle-down effect to various other areas of life. One small one: black administrations controlled civic bond offerings etc, and they expressed a desire to see black faces sitting at the boardroom tables when they went in to see their bond lawyers. So, all of a sudden, you began to see a lot of young black lawyers at the big eastern blue chip law firms, where there'd only been tokenism before.


So against that backdrop, ie the backdrop of blacks suddenly behind the levers of power in these urban centers, we get The Wire, which can be viewed as a report card on Equal Opportunity, and on the fruits of the inheritance of the cities by blacks.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> there are no 'flawless' white characters either, not even carcetti. he was hardly a saint before the election, if johnny thinks he was, he wasn't watching very closely.  and, as you say, daniels is the most 'flawless' character, Colvin comes pretty damned close, Carver not too far behind.



Colvin is a good and principled black character. He can see through the bullshit, and comes up with a solution that works. Nobody likes it, and he ends up, in the short term at least, as a hotel detective, for his troubles. 

Simon shows us that no good deed goes unpunished. The same thing happens in the newsroom, when Alma comes forward with the blank notebook. She's sent to the sticks. Simon's outlook is unrelentingly bleak.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

more horseshit from the horseshit meister. 

How is Colvin 'lining his pockets' Johnny? 

Carcetti definitely IS lining his pockets by simiply using the mayoralty as a stepping stone to the senate.

Did you miss the bits about Royce being a genuine radical at first, but getting corrupted?  Just like carcetti.

Your ignorance truly knows no bounds.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 6, 2009)

Amazing. Truly amazing.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Colvin is a good and principled black character. He can see through the bullshit, and comes up with a solution that works. Nobody likes it, and he ends up, in the short term at least, as a hotel detective, for his troubles.



So, you now admit that your 'thesis' was complete bullshit


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> more horseshit from the horseshit meister.
> 
> How is Colvin 'lining his pockets' Johnny? .



I guess you didn't read my post above about Colvin. Colvin isn't a thief, and is a good friend of one of the other honest black non-drug-dealers: the Deacon.

The plot even throws Colvin a bone when the ponytailed black character, I can't recall his name, ends up on the debating team. The plot has to have some success, some positivity; otherwise, it turns into something like Macbeth.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> So, you now admit that your 'thesis' was complete bullshit



I said that most of the non drug dealing black characters are thieves, out to line their own pockets.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> Did you miss the bits about Royce being a genuine radical at first, but getting corrupted?  Just like carcetti.
> .


Possibly, but when he loses his morality, it goes in the direction of self enrichment.

That might happen to Carcetti as well, but for as long as we see him in the script, his motivation remains a desire to do 'good', even if he's misguided in his agreement to use less than upstanding means to retain power. There is never a suggestion that Carcetti is stealing for self enrichment.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

and that has been shown to be complete nonsense, with the white characters being portrayed in, at the very least, just as bad a manner.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> and that has been shown to be complete nonsense, with the white characters being portrayed in, at the very least, just as bad a manner.



Tell us where it's shown or suggested that Carcetti is stealing solely to line his own pockets.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 6, 2009)

royce isn't in it for the money (although davis is)


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

why am I bothering? It's like arguing with a Mattel talking doll.

Fuck off Johnny, there's a good lad, no one takes you seriously you  know.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Tell us where it's shown or suggested that Carcetti is stealing solely to line his own pockets.



I just did, you thick fuck, you even quoted from the same post.

<bugger, did it again!>


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

There is a group of whites shown to be grasping and evil: the white defence lawyers who represent the black drug dealers.

But: they're lawyers.   Not sure if all of them are jewish, though: just the prominent one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> why am I bothering? It's like arguing with a Mattel talking doll.
> 
> Fuck off Johnny, there's a good lad, no one takes you seriously you  know.



You can save your temper for a serious topic: or not.

The topic here, is a_ tv show_.


p.s. We're talking about motivation of a bunch of morally bankrupt characters.

To repeat, Carcetti compromises his morality out of a messiah complex that tells him it's ok to do these morally suspect things, because if he's in power, he'll be able to do good things for the community.

Characters like Davis and Royce, are just interested in their own bank accounts.

Can you understand the differentiation I'm making?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Crispy said:


> royce isn't in it for the money (although davis is)



When Davis comes in to rail at Royce and Nerise when he's close to a downfall, he says that if he goes down for theft and corruption, he'll let the cats out of the bag, and they all go down together.

The implication is that they've all been in bed together.


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 6, 2009)

hey johnny - the corrupt lawyer is WHITE and JEWISH


go figure

wow, JC - you beat me to it


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> SPOILERS AHEAD
> 
> 
> As Crispy points out, Carcetti compromises his ideals etc, but his motivation appears to be a messiah complex: he can do good, but he has to stay in office to do so, and he might have to fudge numbers to stay in office.


Really? It might have been what he told himself and others, but IMO his motivation comes across transparently as ambition. After all, he refused the money for the schools for the sake of his own career.



> McNulty messes with murder scenes in order to fake the serial killer, but once again, his motivation is to get money to allow 'police to do good police work'.


Well, so did Freeman. And Freeman is by far the less flawed character than McNulty (who is a drunk driver, adulterer and general fuck up for most of the show).

As others have said, there are decent and honest black characters, either from the start of who have the process of change. I think it's quite evident the writers view Bunny as a hero. Out of Herc and Carver, it is Carver who grows to be good police. I can't think that there's anything dodgy about Keema other than a bit of commitment phobia. Bunk may be a drunk and occasionally play away from home but he's good police. There are many other lesser black characters (e.g. Sydnor or Norman) who have no dirt on them. And of course in series 5 the characters who come off badly in the press are white. 



Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Imo, the writer put his opinion into the mouth of the voter whom Carcetti ran into in the street during the runup to the election. The man said, referring to blacks: 'They had their chance. Sure, when we ran things, we took one dollar out of three. But these moulis, they take two out of every three.'



The person who looks bad in that scene is the racist. I doubt very much that their views reflect that of the writers.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

El Jefe said:


> hey johnny - the corrupt lawyer is WHITE and JEWISH
> 
> 
> go figure





I can tell that you're trying to think: I just can't make out what the end product of that attempt, is.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> To repeat, Carcetti compromises his morality out of a messiah complex that tells him it's ok to do these morally suspect things, because if he's in power, he'll be able to do good things for the community.
> 
> Characters like Davis and Royce, are just interested in their own bank accounts.
> 
> Can you understand the differentiation I'm making?



Yes, and it is complete bullshit, as you've even partially admitted. You can't even make your own case consistent,


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Really? It might have been what he told himself and others, but IMO his motivation comes across transparently as ambition. After all, he refused the money for the schools for the sake of his own career.



He is no doubt ambitious, but the only indications we get about what he intends to do, revolves around his attempts to do some good. He doesn't fix all the city's woes, because there's not enough money. But unlike previous admins, who bled all the departments, he chooses education, and directs resources there, to the detriment of policing, etc.

We're given no indication that he will steal money for his own enrichment.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> The person who looks bad in that scene is the racist. I doubt very much that their views reflect that of the writers.



christ, I missed that one of Johnnys!  Possibly the most stupid thing he has ever said, and that takes some doing.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> We're given no indication that he will steal money for his own enrichment.



Except for Davis, neither does anyone else, you thick fuck.  And what about all those other black characters who are in no way 'thieves' that have just been mentioned?  Aren't you big enough to admit that they rather undermine your 'thesis'?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Really? It might have been what he told himself and others, but IMO his motivation comes across transparently as ambition. After all, he refused the money for the schools for the sake of his own career.
> 
> 
> Well, so did Freeman. And Freeman is by far the less flawed character than McNulty (who is a drunk driver, adulterer and general fuck up for most of the show).
> ...



Yes, as I've said, there are some good characters who are also minorities. But wrt my thesis that this is a report card on the handling of government by blacks in the urban US, the minority characters who are close to the honey jar, seem to have a propensity to stick a hand in.

As for the newsroom, I think there are two black characters there: apart from that likely being a reflection of reality, I think Simon is also saying something about the colour divide and how it plays out in various of the Estates. In the private sphere, whites remain firmly in control.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

belboid said:


> Except for Davis, neither does anyone else, *you thick fuck.*  And what about all those other black characters who are in no way 'thieves' that have just been mentioned?  Aren't you big enough to admit that they rather undermine your 'thesis'?



Tell you what. It's enjoyable talking about a tv show to some people, but you aren't one of them. Don't bother responding to my posts on this thread if you expect anything back from me.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> He is no doubt ambitious, but the only indications we get about what he intends to do, revolves around his attempts to do some good. He doesn't fix all the city's woes, because there's not enough money. But unlike previous admins, who bled all the departments, he chooses education, and directs resources there, to the detriment of policing, etc.
> 
> We're given no indication that he will steal money for his own enrichment.



Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. Whilst Carcetti may have wanted to do good to start, I think it's quite obvious that once he's in power he tries to hang on/increase that power in the corrupt ways he renounced before he took office. And that is the point of the story arc - the age old "power corrupts". 

And as for Royce, I don't think the implication was that he took money directly himself, just that Clay Davis had used corrupt money for his campaign, something Royce didn't know about; I'm pretty sure Clay explicitly said don't ask where the money comes from. So Royce, like Carcetti, seems mainly motivated by staying in power. 

Btw, if there is any significance to the face that white Carcetti got to higher government and black Royce didn't, it could well be a comment about racism in America rather than being a racist action on behalf of the script writers.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, as I've said, there are some good characters who are also minorities. But wrt my thesis that this is a report card on the handling of government by blacks in the urban US, the minority characters who are close to the honey jar, seem to have a propensity to stick a hand in.


But there are still corrupt white characters too. Most characters are corrupt to some degree (and as has been said, some of the characters who are portrayed in a more positive light happen to be black). 

As I said in my other post, I don't actually think it's implied that Royce is putting his hand in the honey jar himself. He just tries to stay in office (like Carcetti tries to leave it for better things).



> As for the newsroom, I think there are two black characters there: apart from that likely being a reflection of reality, I think Simon is also saying something about the colour divide and how it plays out in various of the Estates. In the private sphere, whites remain firmly in control.



And I don't disagree with what you've said there.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 6, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I said that most of the non drug dealing black characters are thieves, out to line their own pockets.



Bunk?

Freeman?

Dennis Wise (or doesn't he count)?

Keema?


----------



## Riklet (Jan 6, 2009)

Lol, this thread is full of so much fucking bullshit! Near half, or maybe even the majority of the cast in the wire are black, so therefore they're always going to be 'wrong 'uns a-plenty.  What's the fucking big deal? Obviously race attitudes are being challenges in the show, but it's nothing in the way of "blakz r thievz" 

I have now finished it _alllll_ and I thought it was fantastic, n series 5 held up pretty well, in an interesting way, despite some serious craziness in the plot.  Fuck I dunno where to go from here! This is one show that has completely got in side my head, and I wont be able to get out for a while... 

My friend is still maintaining that 24 is better than the Wire though.  Boy needs learnin'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. Whilst Carcetti may have wanted to do good to start, I think it's quite obvious that once he's in power he tries to hang on/increase that power in the corrupt ways he renounced before he took office. And that is the point of the story arc - the age old "power corrupts". .



I agree that the old message of power corrupting is there, but I still can't find anything in the plot to indicate that he was being corrupted in the direction of self enrichment.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> And as for Royce, I don't think the implication was that he took money directly himself, just that Clay Davis had used corrupt money for his campaign, something Royce didn't know about;



Not sure where you're getting that from.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Btw, if there is any significance to the face that white Carcetti got to higher government and black Royce didn't, it could well be a comment about racism in America rather than being a racist action on behalf of the script writers.



 I've said that the message left by the piece, is that the black-run urban inner cities have become riddled with incompetence and corruption far greater than existed even under the corrupt white predecessor administrations. Whether the making of that statement constitutes racism, is a decision for each viewer to make.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> But there are still corrupt white characters too. .



Yes, I know. If you check back to my first post on this issue, I said that in Simon's world, most everyone is morally bankrupt; the only issue is in which way the specific characters face moral bankruptcy.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

Riklet said:


> Lol, this thread is full of so much fucking bullshit! Near half, or maybe even the majority of the cast in the wire are black, so therefore they're always going to be 'wrong 'uns a-plenty.  What's the fucking big deal? Obviously race attitudes are being challenges in the show, but it's nothing in the way of "blakz r thievz" (



Do you know much about what's happened to civic politics and government in the eastern urban centers with large black populations since the White Flight, cities like Baltimore and Washington DC?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 6, 2009)

spanglechick said:


> Bunk?
> 
> Freeman?
> 
> ...



I was mostly talking about the characters on the non drug dealing side. I'd include Cutty on the other side. Freamon didn't appear to steal, nor Keema, but I'd said that the issue arose more with those people who had access to the honey jar. That doesn't apply too much to low grade detectives and beat cops.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I was mostly talking about the characters on the non drug dealing side. I'd include Cutty on the other side. Freamon didn't appear to steal, nor Keema, but I'd said that the issue arose more with those people who had access to the honey jar. That doesn't apply too much to low grade detectives and beat cops.



You really don't understand 'consistency' do you? As per usual, your original thesis is shown to be total nonsense, so you chop and change it to try and save your face. You're too childish to admit you're wrong, and so keep talking utter rubbish till everyone else gets bored, at which point you declare yourself 'the winner'. You have got just about every major fact wrong in this instance, ignore the vast number of inconvenient ones, and just keep repeating the same thing over and over. 

And I don't expect any response from you, because you are incapable of an honest one.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I've said that the message left by the piece, is that the black-run urban inner cities have become riddled with incompetence and corruption far greater than existed even under the corrupt white predecessor administrations. Whether the making of that statement constitutes racism, is a decision for each viewer to make.



And it is even more corrupt AFTER Carcetti, which knocks yet another hole in your 'thesis'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Person A: "Most oranges are round."

Person B: "Oh yeah? Well, this one here's egg-shaped, ya stupid fuck!"


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

'Johnny makes an early attempt for the Most Stupid Post on Urban award of 2009'


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Not sure where you're getting that from.


Because when Davis came to Royce to complain about being called to the grand jury, I'm pretty sure he said something along the lines of "where did you think the money came from, don't ask but you'll be in shit if this thing happens". Where as I don't think there's any explicit mention of Royce taking money himself. 



Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I've said that the message left by the piece, is that the black-run urban inner cities have become riddled with incompetence and corruption far greater than existed even under the corrupt white predecessor administrations. Whether the making of that statement constitutes racism, is a decision for each viewer to make.



I'm not sure if you can generalise that message when the show is about a specific place. If Baltimore is indeed that corrupt (and certainly some things are taken from fact - I know Carcetti's being made governer whilst juking the stats is based on a real politician) then surely representing it as such, with corruption coming from both white and black characters, isn't racist. Should it paint a more rosy picture? 

Obvious race and poverty are issues coming through (and my take is that the city got into trouble largely due to the poverty) but unless there is evidence that Simon and co are making it seem much worse than it is, or make another show about a white run city which seems more idealistic, then I don't think it is a comment on black run city. It's a comment very specifically about Baltamore, which also happens to be a black run city.

[Edit - and the comments from Rawls about affirmative action - I interpreted that as more suggesting that Rawls is racist himself, or at least trying to get in any way he can, rather than actually being a comment on affirmative action]

It crossed my mind the other day that the Wire could be perceived as quite sexist in places. But then before I had finished the argument in my head, I had already countered it in a lot of places - I had been focusing on some characters and forgetting others. I could probably construct some sort of argument if I wanted to. It wouldn't necessarily be an acurate reflection of what is going on though and it would miss certain contradictory evidence.


----------



## mhendo (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> It crossed my mind the other day that the Wire could be perceived as quite sexist in places.


While i'm not sure that sexist would be the right way to describe it, i do think that one area in which _The Wire_ suffers is in the drawing and the development of its female characters. They are not, for the most part, as complex and as well-thought-out as their male counterparts. 

Don't get me wrong; i think Kima and Rhonda, for example, are both great characters, but i think that more could have been done with them. I would also have liked to see them do more with Brianna Barksdale (D'Angelo's mother) over the second and third seasons; i thought that Avon going away gave them a perfect opportunity to giv e her a more active role in the show. They certainly gave her a bigger role in the drug organization, but we didn't really get to see much of that on screen. 

I also thought more could have been done with Beadie Russell's character, especially as McNulty began to spiral back into his old habits of drinking and screwing around. We got to see some angst between them, but i think Amy Ryan is an excellent actor, and more could have been made of her character.

Of course, _The Wire_ is far from the first show to give its female characters less meaty roles than the men. This is especially the case among cop shows, and the critically-acclaimed _NYPD Blue_ really had some disastrously-written women among the characters. Even those who were well done generally were on the show mainly to act as a foil to the main male characters. This was particularly the case with Sylvia Costas, played by Sharon Lawrence, who was in some great scenes, and did some great work, but who was there largely to aid in the character development of Andy Sipowicz.

I thought Sonja Sohn, as Kima on _The Wire_, was something of an exception, but i still would have liked to see more of her outside the job.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I'm not sure if you can generalise that message when the show is about a specific place. .



I think you can. I think the author was using the literary device of allegory.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I don't think it is a comment on black run city. It's a comment very specifically about Baltamore, which also happens to be a black run city..


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> [Edit - and the comments from Rawls about affirmative action - I interpreted that as more suggesting that Rawls is racist himself, or at least trying to get in any way he can, rather than actually being a comment on affirmative action].



....aside from the fact that Rawls was a closet gay whose men of choice were black homosexuals.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> It crossed my mind the other day that the Wire could be perceived as quite sexist in places. But then before I had finished the argument in my head, I had already countered it in a lot of places - I had been focusing on some characters and forgetting others. I could probably construct some sort of argument if I wanted to. It wouldn't necessarily be an acurate reflection of what is going on though and it would miss certain contradictory evidence.



I think you were wise to dismiss that line of argument.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

mhendo said:


> I also thought more could have been done with Beadie Russell's character, especially as McNulty began to spiral back into his old habits of drinking and screwing around. We got to see some angst between them, but i think Amy Ryan is an excellent actor, and more could have been made of her character.
> 
> .



She's certainly earned her chops on a lot of tv series. I think that they employed a fairly good caliber of actor, but that the actors were let down by the screenplay. I know that many of them are capable of better than some of the mugging and overemoting that seemed to be demanded either by the writers or the directors.

As for the females in the series, it might just be that the writer has difficulty writing convincing female characters. The most realistic was Kima, a lesbian who arguably had a lot more in common with McNulty than she did with Beadie.

The lawyer was arguably a powerful character, as was Nerise.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Also, the kima character was necessary to get in a little t and a.

We saw more naked lez-flesh than anything in this series, although Lt. Davis' naked buttocks gave Kima a good run for her money.


----------



## golightly (Jan 7, 2009)

Are you tired Jonny?  You're rambling.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 7, 2009)

golightly said:


> Are you tired Jonny?  You're rambling.



Keyboard dioherria takes it out of one y'know.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Pie 1 said:


> Keyboard dioherria takes it out of one y'know.



Happy New Year. 


psst..... it's spelled 'diarrhea'.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Also, the kima character was necessary to get in a little t and a.
> 
> We saw more naked lez-flesh than anything in this series, although Lt. Davis' naked buttocks gave Kima a good run for her money.



dear god, your comments get even more moronic. 


Stop trying to make every thread about how stupid you are johnny, then everyone may not think you are quite such a wankstain.

Or at least learn to spell


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

belboid said:


> dear god, your comments get even more moronic.
> 
> 
> Stop trying to make every thread about how stupid you are johnny, then everyone may not think you are quite such a wankstain.
> ...





> 07-01-2009, 01:53
> belboid belboid is online now
> MutteringMutilatedMarxism
> 
> ...





What a freaking moron.


----------



## Pie 1 (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> psst..... it's spelled 'diarrhea'.



Like I give a fuck, you bellend.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What a freaking moron.



cant you spell 'fucking', shit for brains?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 7, 2009)

Can we talk about the wire instead of the hypothetical fecal content of brains?


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

If Johnny stops wanking himself off over the thread, then maybe


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think you were wise to dismiss that line of argument.


Really?

What got me in this line of thinking was that any mother we get to know beyond a scene is a bitch, either due to severe neglect or from being controlling and not really orientated around what is good for their child (thinking Brianna and Namon's mother here). Even the foster care mother comes across as very cold. Then the two strongest female characters (Keema on the side of "good" and Snoop on the side of "bad") both happen to be gay, and as you point out yourself about Keema, almost more like the male characters than the other female ones. Rhonda's character develop almost feels overshadowed at times by her relationships with her partners, first McNulty and then Daniels. 

The thing is that there is contradictory info - Nerise and Beadie for example. But the reason I am bringing this up is because there is also contradictory info that has been brought up against your arguments. Except whilst this made me reconsider the beginnings of the argument I was forming, you seem to be ignoring it in the context of yours. 



mhendo said:


> While i'm not sure that sexist would be the right way to describe it, i do think that one area in which _The Wire_ suffers is in the drawing and the development of its female characters. They are not, for the most part, as complex and as well-thought-out as their male counterparts.
> 
> Of course, _The Wire_ is far from the first show to give its female characters less meaty roles than the men. This is especially the case among cop shows, and the critically-acclaimed _NYPD Blue_ really had some disastrously-written women among the characters. Even those who were well done generally were on the show mainly to act as a foil to the main male characters. This was particularly the case with Sylvia Costas, played by Sharon Lawrence, who was in some great scenes, and did some great work, but who was there largely to aid in the character development of Andy Sipowicz.



I agree with this btw, and as a wider issue you could argue it reflects a tendency to make programmes about male dominated environments unless they're specifically aimed at women, like SATC. If there is a show about a female dominated environment then that focus tends to be a special thing about it - "oo look a programme about women" and it tends to get described as chick TV. Now, in the context of Johnny's argument, maybe he feels that The Wire is another programme with a large black cast that is full of problem saturated narratives; in a similar way, a "black" programme about "black problems". That argument may have some legs to it, but it's a much wider issue than being about just one show, and it's related to the overall subject matter rather than specific things that happen within it. 

But then isn't it often said that the problems of poor black America are ignored, and doesn't this show bring some of those problems to the awareness of more people? IMO, it seems to show how those problems develop through poverty and lack of hope rather than just describe what is going on. To be honest, I don't think there is an easy answer.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> What got me in this line of thinking was that any mother we get to know beyond a scene is a bitch, either due to severe neglect or from being controlling and not really orientated around what is good for their child (thinking Brianna and Namon's mother here).



That's just as true regarding the fathers tho, isnt it? 

I'd agree that there are fewer fully rounded women characters, tho doesn't that reflect the spheres in which the programme is set? Women in vaguely equal numbers only appear in the classroom and the newspaper, as they (probably) do in real life.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 7, 2009)

belboid said:


> That's just as true regarding the fathers tho, isnt it?
> 
> I'd agree that there are fewer fully rounded women characters, tho doesn't that reflect the spheres in which the programme is set?


I agree there are dads who don't come across well, and often that's to do with absense. But in the case of Namon it is Weebay who tells the mum to let him go to Bunny. And of course Bunny takes the role of the nurturing foster father. But then I'm not really writing this to argue a "thesis". I'm using it as and example of how you can interpret it in a different way, for which there is evidence supporting it, but also some evidence that doesn't fit. If you're a woman and/or black you may be more orientated to seeing overt or covert prejudice than if you're a white man, whether in that particular instance it's there or not. Implictly more goes on than is recognised, but whether that is the case here is up for debate. But my wider point regards what spheres are regularly picked for meaningful TV.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

Sure, I take your points, and you're certainly right to an extent at least (tho it takes a rather perverse POV to extrapolate an entire thesis from one character and a single line of dialogue as _some_ seem to do). One of the things about The Wire tho is just how astoundingly wide that sphere is, there can't be any series that has drawn it so broadly, all of human life _is_ there.  And in such a case a few of those lives will be drawn slightly more weakly, but still a darned sight better than in most other drama's.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 7, 2009)

belboid said:


> but still a darned sight better than in most other drama's.



I definitely agree with you there


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Really?
> 
> What got me in this line of thinking was that any mother we get to know beyond a scene is a bitch, either due to severe neglect or from being controlling and not really orientated around what is good for their child (thinking Brianna and Namon's mother here). Even the foster care mother comes across as very cold. Then the two strongest female characters (Keema on the side of "good" and Snoop on the side of "bad") both happen to be gay, and as you point out yourself about Keema, almost more like the male characters than the other female ones. Rhonda's character develop almost feels overshadowed at times by her relationships with her partners, first McNulty and then Daniels.
> 
> The thing is that there is contradictory info - Nerise and Beadie for example. But the reason I am bringing this up is because there is also contradictory info that has been brought up against your arguments. Except whilst this made me reconsider the beginnings of the argument I was forming, you seem to be ignoring it in the context of yours. .



Not actually. I considered the contradictory evidence, and decided that the supportive evidence outweighed it.


----------



## belboid (Jan 7, 2009)

One character and one line of dialogue, over five seasons.

I hope you're never on a jury.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

belboid said:


> One character and one line of dialogue, over five seasons.
> 
> I hope you're never on a jury.



I never will be on a jury.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 7, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I never will be on a jury.


convicted felon?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 7, 2009)

Crispy said:


> convicted felon?



Judge


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Crispy said:


> convicted felon?



No.

Mentally retarded.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

> It is time to talk about an unpleasant subject: ratings for HBO's The Wire.
> 
> The Baltimore-based drama is averaging only 1.02 million viewers a week through the first half of its 10-episode finale season. That is about only 3.3 percent of homes that subscribe to HBO -- or less than 1 percent of the American TV audience.
> 
> ...



http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/ent...g/2008/02/ratings_for_the_wire_how_low_c.html

You have to wonder about the first sentence of this piece: "It is time to talk about an unpleasant subject: ratings for HBO's The Wire."

I'm not sure why the subject is unpleasant. It's a tv show that was not at all popular with the viewing public. The only thing I can take from that, is that it isn't a tv show at all, but is a message. It's a wake up call that isn't about entertainment at all. It's too important for that. As a result, those who don't watch it, don't get it, but..... they should. The details don't matter, like entertainment value, acting quality, etc. Quibbling about those things, is like kvetching about the writing style in the Bible. Believers say 'it's not _about _that!'

The author goes on to opine that maybe the sequence in the white newsroom is the problem, or, as he darkly mutters at the end, it's that most people are, er, too stupid to understand the diamond that they've been handed. He's perplexed that other difficult series have done better, given his 'stupidity' hypothesis. Dummies shouldn't like any of this tv, not just The Wire.

When you see comments like this: alarm that a tv show has bad ratings, you know that it's not about the tv show anymore. It's about watching and accepting the received and agreed upon Truth.

I'd kind of wondered why The Wire hadn't gone to the standard sixth season, but now I understand.


----------



## mhendo (Jan 8, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Now, in the context of Johnny's argument, maybe he feels that The Wire is another programme with a large black cast that is full of problem saturated narratives; in a similar way, a "black" programme about "black problems". That argument may have some legs to it, but it's a much wider issue than being about just one show, and it's related to the overall subject matter rather than specific things that happen within it.


Absolutely.

For David Simon, the show was not just about race, or corruption, or American culture more generally; it was about Baltimore. This is a city in which about 65% of the population, and an even higher percentage of the poor and the drug addicted, are African American. It's a city that, between 1960 and 2000 lost about one-third of its population, dropping from about 960,000 people within the city limits to about 650,000. That's a lot of taxpayers to lose. In that same period, the racial demographic shifted dramatically, from about two-thirds white to about two-thirds black.

And this stuff isn't just numbers to the people who live there. Having lived in the city for almost 8 years, i can tell you that barely an issue surfaces in Baltimore that is not, in one way or another, about race. Even in cases where it probably shouldn't be, it still is. The burden of history can't just be shaken off, and race is an integral part of Baltimore's past.

The question is how best to represent something like that in a TV show. Of course, you can go with the "white liberal guilt" school of interpretation, in which all the blacks are noble, suffering people whose only obstacle is the boot of the white man on their collective necks. You can, if you're very brave, go for old-school '50s-style stuff, where the blacks are savage animals who, but for the thin blue line of police civilization, would march into the big houses, kill the white men and drag off all the white women. Or you can try and show blacks as they are, with all the attributes and all the foibles that you'll find in any large group of people.

You can choose to make your show completely fictional, totally divorced from the actual history of the city you're representing, or you can make an effort to tell the story in a way that is still fictional, but that draws directly on stories and characters that anyone living in the city will recognize.

For me, one of the most impressive things about _The Wire_ is that it actually seems pretty real, pretty reflective of how things are, to a lot of people who live in Baltimore. The stories about city politics, urban redevelopment, government corruption, and political infighting were very similar to the ones we saw on the local news every night, or read about in the _Baltimore Sun_. 

While i can't claim much in the way of personal knowledge of the street drug trade, nor of the upper-level criminal dealings of the importers and the drug kingpins, the story of court cases, of witness intimidation, and of systemic violence related to the drug trade is one that any Baltimorean will recognize. Check out the Baltimore _CityPaper_'s murder map to see the extent of homicides in the city. And look at how many of them involve black men aged 18-35 shooting other black men aged 18-35. Here's a breakdown of the 2007 stats; 2008 was a little better, with murders down from 282 in 2007 to 234 last year.

I'm not saying that everything in _The Wire_ was accurate, or that none of it could have been done better. David Simon has admitted the same thing, and has also said clearly that _The Wire_ is not a documentary, and that, even where it is based on real characters and real situations, it is still a work of fiction. I also believe that a reasonable argument _could_ be made that _The Wire_ is, in some ways, "a 'black' programme about 'black problems,'" and that it might appear to some that these are emphasized in a way that reinforces older stereotypes about African Americans. But the reason i wouldn't agree with that argument is precisely because the show is about Baltimore, and the type of race-related issues dealt with on the show are, in fact, a central part of the city's story. 





Agent Sparrow said:


> To be honest, I don't think there is an easy answer.


You're right, there isn't. Portraying this sort of stuff in a TV show is hard. Finding a balance between portraying things as they are, on the one hand, and how you'd like them to be, on the other, is a very difficult thing to do.

I think Simon and the writers deal with the issues sensitively, and in a way that does a good job of portraying most of their white _and_ black characters as three dimensional and complicated and interesting. They had more success with some than with others, of course, but any critique that reduces the show to "feelgood, Establishment message," or "[blacks] are incapable of running an honest, efficient civic government" is completely retarded. 

There's also the more general issue of "verisimilitude." I actually agree that verisimilitude is an important criterion by which we all judge works like movies and TV shows. After all, if a show purports to tell us something real, then how we react to it will depend, to a considerable extent, upon how real and authentic it feels to us.

But, in evaluating verisimilitude, we also have to be careful to be a bit introspective, a bit conscious of our own limitations. Verisimilitude is the _appearance_ of being true or real, the extent to which something feels authentic _to us, as viewers_. And the fact is that different viewers have different levels of knowledge, and different experiences. If you feel that a show that you're viewing lacks verisimilitude, there are a couple of possibilities: one is that the show really does lack truth and authenticity, that it fails to get at the heart of the issues it is portraying; the other possibility is that you have no fucking clue what reality is (for the issues dealt with on that particular show), and therefore would not know truth and authenticity if it slapped you across the skull with a wet trout.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

mhendo said:


> Or you can try and show blacks as they are, with all the attributes and all the foibles that you'll find in any large group of people.



I think that that would be a worthwhile project; unfortunately, the evidence is that The Wire didn't pass muster. 

Looking around, I found that blacks are disproportionately represented amongst HBO subscribers. There are 22 million subscribing households in the US, of which, 23% are black. That means somewhere around 5.5 million households. Given that a household will average out to more than one person, it probably means at least 10 million potential black viewers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...6A15751C0A96E958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

We know from the cite a few posts above, that the final season averaged 1 million viewers per episode. Viewers, not households, and one episode got half a million viewers, a new low for the Nielsen ratings. 

Given the enthusiastic response to the series by tv reviewers etc, we have to assume that at least some white people watched the series, meaning that few black HBO subscribers were interested.

They voted with their feet. I'd expect that if the series resonated with black america as being worthy of and true to black urban experience, more HBO subscribing blacks would have watched it.

They didn't. Instead, the show recorded such low numbers, that the series was cancelled.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry, what show are you talking about Johnny?  Because The Wire wasn't cancelled, only five seasons were ever planned.

If you must google for an opinion, try and do so accurately, at the very least.


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The only thing I can take from that, is that it isn't a tv show at all, but is a message.



Rrrrright.


----------



## ovaltina (Jan 8, 2009)

8den said:


> In short JC your criticism of the wire isn't just bad, it's inaccurate, it's wrong, and your pants are around your ankle and you pathetic little dick's on fire.



 why don't you say what you really think?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> Sorry, what show are you talking about Johnny?  Because The Wire wasn't cancelled, only five seasons were ever planned.



You're right, actually. That's what I get for listening to someone, and not googling to check it out.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

It was almost cancelled after season 3, after poor ratings (the first ep of the last season here got a mere 48,000 viewers, tho most of us had probably already downloaded it). However lobbying by viewers, including (!) many black viewers apparently, saved it


----------



## Crispy (Jan 8, 2009)

Must be doing pretty well on DVD now, though.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> It was almost cancelled after season 3, after poor ratings (the first ep of the last season here got a mere 48,000 viewers, tho most of us had probably already downloaded it). However lobbying by viewers, including (!) many black viewers apparently, saved it



Once they saved it, it looks like they didn't bother to watch it, though.


----------



## Santino (Jan 8, 2009)

You know you're in trouble when you have to appeal to viewing figures to support your arguments.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Must be doing pretty well on DVD now, though.



It's very popular at the video stores around here, as people like me rent it to see what all the hype is about.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

number 91 in amazon uk's DVD sales list, so, yup, it must be doing pretty well


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Once they saved it, it looks like they didn't bother to watch it, though.



oh dear.  Yes.  they did.  Just as many watched the last two seasons as the earlier three, slightly more in fact. It never got great ratings, it was just great.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> oh dear.  Yes.  they did.  Just as many watched the last two seasons as the earlier three, slightly more in fact. It never got great ratings, it was just great.



One episode in the final season got the lowest ratings in Nielsen history.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Tbh, this whole Wire thing has been quite fascinating. It was odd, watching it and finding it to be so flawed, in the face of such unyielding praise, not only here, but from the tv critics as well. But then finding out that basically nobody watched it, reaffirmed what I'd suspected all along: that I'm not crazy. 

This must be the ultimate PC exercise. A show about an admittedly timely and important topic, mishandled in the execution. But to be seen to dislike it, especially for the professionals, was to risk being branded a racist, insensitive, etc. So instead, the critics went overboard on the praise.

My faith not only in myself but in humanity was restored when I looked at the ratings numbers today. No matter how much people are told something is good for them, the majority will make that decision for themselves, even in this day and age.


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 8, 2009)

ratings don't take into account DVD sales, downloads etc etc etc.
The Wire wouldn't be the first show to perform poorly on TV but still have a massive following.


----------



## Santino (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> My faith not only in myself but in humanity was restored when I looked at the ratings numbers today. No matter how much people are told something is good for them, the majority will make that decision for themselves, even in this day and age.


People like American Idol. People are idiots.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> One episode in the final season got the lowest ratings in Nielsen history.



I find that quite hard to believe.  

Many things dont get great viewing figures over here despite critical raves, the last season of the Sopranos could barely fight its way on to terrestrial tv,


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Tbh, this whole Wire thing has been quite fascinating. It was odd, watching it and finding it to be so flawed, in the face of such unyielding praise, not only here, but from the tv critics as well. But then finding out that basically nobody watched it, reaffirmed what I'd suspected all along: that I'm not crazy.
> 
> This must be the ultimate PC exercise. A show about an admittedly timely and important topic, mishandled in the execution. But to be seen to dislike it, especially for the professionals, was to risk being branded a racist, insensitive, etc. So instead, the critics went overboard on the praise.
> 
> My faith not only in myself but in humanity was restored when I looked at the ratings numbers today. No matter how much people are told something is good for them, the majority will make that decision for themselves, even in this day and age.


another contender for the stupidest post of the year.

you didnt like it, fine.  Fuck off and stop moaning then


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Alex B said:


> People like American Idol. People are idiots.



No they're not. They just like what they like. They also liked The Sopranos and a host of other, 'intellectual' entertainments. Liking lowbrow entertainment and liking intellectual entertainment, are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> another contender for the stupidest post of the year.
> 
> you didnt like it, fine.  Fuck off and stop moaning then



Do you always feel insecure when it appears that someone has put more than one second's thought into a post?


----------



## Santino (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No they're not. They just like what they like. They also liked The Sopranos and a host of other, 'intellectual' entertainments. Liking lowbrow entertainment and liking intellectual entertainment, are not mutually exclusive.


50% people are of below average intelligence.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> I find that quite hard to believe.
> 
> Many things dont get great viewing figures over here despite critical raves, the last season of the Sopranos could barely fight its way on to terrestrial tv,



To repeat post 364:


> It is time to talk about an unpleasant subject: ratings for HBO's The Wire.
> 
> The Baltimore-based drama is averaging only *1.02 million viewers a week through the first half of its 10-episode finale season*. That is about only 3.3 percent of homes that subscribe to HBO -- or less than 1 percent of the American TV audience.
> 
> ...


http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/ente...how_low_c.html


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

aah, more evidence that Johnny is talking shit again!

"Last year, an average of 4.4 million viewers watched each episode of the series on one of the HBO channels. This year [2008], the season opener was seen by a cumulative audience of about 3.4 million viewers,"  

A little higher than johnny said, even if barely half the Sopranos' 9 million


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Alex B said:


> 50% people are of below average intelligence.



Technically, that isn't true, but an equal number are of above average intelligence. It's a bell curve.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do you always feel insecure when it appears that someone has put more than one second's thought into a post?



if you ever manage one milliseconds actual thought johnny, i'll come over there and give you a big slobbery kiss


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> To repeat post 364:
> 
> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/ente...how_low_c.html



tee hee, did you fail to notice the difference between how the figures were gained johnny?  it is more than just a little bit significant


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> aah, more evidence that Johnny is talking shit again!
> 
> "Last year, an average of 4.4 million viewers watched each episode of the series on one of the HBO channels. This year [2008], the season opener was seen by a cumulative audience of about 3.4 million viewers,"
> 
> A little higher than johnny said, even if barely half the Sopranos' 9 million



The difference between my figures and yours, is that I  provide a source.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> tee hee, did you fail to notice the difference between how the figures were gained johnny?  it is more than just a little bit significant



Uh, tee hee, nobody watched it. 



> 1.02 million viewers a week through the first half of its 10-episode finale season. That is about only 3.3 percent of homes that subscribe to HBO -- or less than 1 percent of the American TV audience.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

arf arf.  Poor johnny, mine is the same source as yours - the Baltimore Sun!

What you did was fail to realise, as is made clear in this article, that the figure you quoted refers simply to the actual sit down audience for thefirst nights showing (which was at the same time as some big football game as well apparently). The Sopranos figure - and the other figure I quoted - refers to ALL those who watched it either on that showing, or on a repeat or on the local version of 'on demand'. 

That's the problem with googling for everything, so easy to make a prat of yourself.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

anyway, neither of them were as good as Deadwood, which got even worse viewing figures, and couldn't be saved


----------



## STFC (Jan 8, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Tbh, this whole Wire thing has been quite fascinating. It was odd, watching it and finding it to be so flawed, in the face of such unyielding praise, not only here, but from the tv critics as well. But then finding out that basically nobody watched it, reaffirmed what I'd suspected all along: that I'm not crazy.
> 
> This must be the ultimate PC exercise. A show about an admittedly timely and important topic, mishandled in the execution. But to be seen to dislike it, especially for the professionals, was to risk being branded a racist, insensitive, etc. So instead, the critics went overboard on the praise.
> 
> My faith not only in myself but in humanity was restored when I looked at the ratings numbers today. No matter how much people are told something is good for them, the majority will make that decision for themselves, even in this day and age.



Johnny, I wonder if the hype spoilt it for you? It's quite easy (and enjoyable too, sometimes) to find flaws in something in the face of unyielding praise. Do you think you would have enjoyed it more had you been totally unaware of the hype surrounding the show?


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> arf arf.  Poor johnny, mine is the same source as yours - the Baltimore Sun!
> 
> What you did was fail to realise, as is made clear in this article, that the figure you quoted refers simply to the actual sit down audience for thefirst nights showing (which was at the same time as some big football game as well apparently). The Sopranos figure - and the other figure I quoted - refers to ALL those who watched it either on that showing, or on a repeat or on the local version of 'on demand'.
> 
> That's the problem with googling for everything, so easy to make a prat of yourself.



DOH  

heh


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 8, 2009)

STFC said:


> Johnny, I wonder if the hype spoilt it for you? It's quite easy (and enjoyable too, sometimes) to find flaws in something in the face of unyielding praise. Do you think you would have enjoyed it more had you been totally unaware of the hype surrounding the show?


Or if he hadn't lost his cool in public last september and been seeking geeky revenge of one sort or another ever since.


----------



## ovaltina (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> the first ep of the last season here got a mere 48,000 viewers



But it was hidden away on FX, a fairly obscure satellite channel. I don't know how many ads there are on FX but I'd guess there are loads, which would lead people to download or buy the box sets instead.


----------



## belboid (Jan 8, 2009)

I know, but it did amuse me, after various papers were full of really really excited 'final season begins this week' stuff just before it started, hardly anyone actually sat down and watched it, for just the reasons you state

Everyone knew most people had already downloaded it, but they couldnt admit it publically


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> arf arf.  Poor johnny, mine is the same source as yours - the Baltimore Sun!
> 
> What you did was fail to realise, as is made clear in this article, that the figure you quoted refers simply to the actual sit down audience for thefirst nights showing (which was at the same time as some big football game as well apparently). The Sopranos figure - and the other figure I quoted - refers to ALL those who watched it either on that showing, or on a repeat or on the local version of 'on demand'.
> 
> That's the problem with googling for everything, so easy to make a prat of yourself.



Not sure how you find any good news in that article:



> The audience for HBO's Baltimore-based crime drama The Wire continued to shrink last week, dropping to a season low of 846,000 viewers.
> 
> That is down 339,000 viewers from the previous week's audience of 1.185 million - a loss of 29 percent.
> 
> While HBO attributed the drop to competition from the New York Giants/Green Bay Packers football game




The Green Bay Packers...

No, nobody watched it, because it generally sucked.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 8, 2009)

as the writer said: fuck the casual viewer


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

STFC said:


> Johnny, I wonder if the hype spoilt it for you? It's quite easy (and enjoyable too, sometimes) to find flaws in something in the face of unyielding praise. Do you think you would have enjoyed it more had you been totally unaware of the hype surrounding the show?



Tbh, no. To my observation, the acting is often bad. The plot often plods along, or becomes overly intricate. The dialogue is often murky. The characterization, especially for women, is often two dimensional. Etc.

With or without the hype, those things would still be present. My observation of them would still have occurred. For example, last night I was watching a film that must have gone straight to video, but it has DeNiro and Scorsese in it, two of my favourite actors. The movie was so weak in parts that my wife and I were groaning at it. It was sucking, and my opinion wasn't influenced by any prior knowledge at all.

I'll repeat this: the topic is a good and worthy one, and one that can be very interesting, gripping even. It's about inner city life, and about the intricacies of the drug trade there and the attempts to stop it. It's about how politics operates when a city is in crisis, and when the govt has a history of being ineffective and corrupt. And, as you know, it's about a lot of other things too.

But.....the mere fact that the writers chose a worthy topic doesn't mean that they did a good job in the execution. Imo, they didn't. In the beginning, I resented the fact that they were given the chance to create a definitive work on the lives of poor blacks in the city, but failed. Then I got a grip, and remembered that it's tv.

Critics love it, but no one watched it. How can that be? Well, after watching season 5, we have a bit of a glimpse into the workings of the media, and of the fact that what stories get written, and how they're written, can be as much a product of politics as anything else. And in the politics of present day US, UK too, you don't go into your editor with an article panning a series that hails itself as bringing the Truth of the Black Experience to a wider audience. You do something like that, and you find your things in a box, and you're being transferred to the sticks.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Or if he hadn't lost his cool in public last september and been seeking geeky revenge of one sort or another ever since.



Friend, what you've just given us, is a window onto how _you_ operate...

You seem to have forgotten how I came to these boards, and what went on back then. That shit back in September? Been there, done that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> Everyone knew most people had already downloaded it, but they couldnt admit it publically



Ironic, isn't it?

I think the show pretty much sucks, but I rented the DVD, meaning that Simon etc, got at least a little money out of me for their troubles.

You think it's the best tv ever, but you stole it to watch it.


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

Your twisting and turning is quite hilarious Johnny. Each new post brings a new stupidity to enjoy.

My paid for DVD's of each season are far and away my most lent out boxed sets, and everyone has come back immediately wanting the next one funnily enough.  We'll just have to put it down to your lack of critical abilities.


----------



## onemonkey (Jan 9, 2009)

it's a poor man's Cagney and Lacey


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

an appallingly sexist show, if ever there was one. No verysimilaritude


----------



## Sunray (Jan 9, 2009)

belboid said:


> Your twisting and turning is quite hilarious Johnny. Each new post brings a new stupidity to enjoy.
> 
> My paid for DVD's of each season are far and away my most lent out boxed sets, and everyone has come back immediately wanting the next one funnily enough.  We'll just have to put it down to your lack of critical abilities.



JC2 is someone who went to France and ate MacDonalds every day so his opinion on anything has to be judged on that, that and the act of telling the internet he went to France and ate MacDonalds every day.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Jan 9, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> but it has DeNiro and Scorsese in it, two of my favourite actors. .



Scorsese is one of your favourite actors?


----------



## spirals (Jan 9, 2009)

I have just finished watching the first series and I loved it.  Got the second one today and the third one coming.  I watched the first one over two days because I couldn't wait to see what happened next but then I wish I had stretched it out so now I'm not sure if I'm going to binge on series two or limit myself to a episode a day.  Arggghhhhh decisions decisions.


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

RenegadeDog said:


> Scorsese is one of your favourite actors?



He's okay in Quiz Show


----------



## ajk (Jan 9, 2009)

Shark Tale, too.


----------



## killer b (Jan 9, 2009)

spirals said:


> I have just finished watching the first series and I loved it.  Got the second one today and the third one coming.  I watched the first one over two days because I couldn't wait to see what happened next but then I wish I had stretched it out so now I'm not sure if I'm going to binge on series two or limit myself to a episode a day.  Arggghhhhh decisions decisions.


heh. snap. 

although, i started watching series 2 this evening, and i've just finished episode 6... 

on a school night too.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

RenegadeDog said:


> Scorsese is one of your favourite actors?



Maybe deNiro more than Scorsese, but I like Scorsese.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Sunray said:


> JC2 is someone who went to France and ate MacDonalds every day so his opinion on anything has to be judged on that, that and the act of telling the internet he went to France and ate MacDonalds every day.



Were you with me in France?

The way I remember it, due to the time diff, I'd get up super early, and go to an all night internet place, at about 6 a.m. On the way back to the hotel, at about 7 am, I'd pick up a McD coffee, and maybe a croissant or something, to get the day started. Not much open in the area at that time, besides the McD. 

We'd then watch some bizzaro tv for an hour or so, then head out, and pick up some cheap eats at Monoprix, to keep us going till lunch time, which would be eaten at a regular restaurant.

That's how I remember it. Have I gotten it wrong somehow?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

belboid said:


> Your twisting and turning is quite hilarious Johnny. Each new post brings a new stupidity to enjoy.
> 
> My paid for DVD's of each season are far and away my most lent out boxed sets, and everyone has come back immediately wanting the next one funnily enough.  We'll just have to put it down to your lack of critical abilities.



Or to the monothought PC dullness of your sheeple friends.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

belboid said:


> an appallingly sexist show, if ever there was one. No verysimilaritude



If you'd gone to school, you'd know what that big word meant.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 9, 2009)

Tbf, it's a very long standing thing that critical aclaim usually has an inverse relationship with actual rating figures or popularity. Plus as was mentioned, more people are likely to download The Wire than say, Pop Idol (or at least I _hope_ that there isn't a substantial proportion of people who download Pop Idol )


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you'd gone to school, you'd know what that big word meant.



fuck off and die johnny.  You're being everyone to death, you views aren't worth shit, and you won't even hold them this time tomorrow, so you have neither point nor function.

Fuck off.  And die.  I can recommend some ways you could try.  None of them would leave you looking as stupid as the ever changing bullshit you've spouted on the two Wire threads.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

belboid said:


> fuck off and die johnny.  You're being everyone to death, you views aren't worth shit, and you won't even hold them this time tomorrow, so you have neither point nor function.
> 
> Fuck off.  And die.  I can recommend some ways you could try.  None of them would leave you looking as stupid as the ever changing bullshit you've spouted on the two Wire threads.



Man wants my death because of a disagreement over a tv show.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

put him on ignore, man


----------



## Belushi (Jan 9, 2009)

A masterclass in trolling from Johnny on this thread


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 9, 2009)

Belushi said:


> A masterclass in trolling from Johnny on this thread



I knew he was watching it purely for argument ammo, right from the start


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Man wants my death because of a disagreement over a tv show.



no, because you are a sad bullshitting fuckwit who spreads your stupidity across everything you touch. The world would indeed be a better place with one less incredibly stupid arrogant person in it. Your comments have been completely valueless and are just you exciting yourself.  Note that not one single person has come up and said they've agreed with ANYTHING you've said. Now, if you weren't a complete egotist you might just think, 'gee, wonder if i might have got something wrong.'  but instead you just charge on blithely, even when doing so means you contradicting  what you said the day before (without admitting it, and pretending that it is still all entirely consistent).

Goodbye, I hope you and your penis are very happy together at night.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> put him on ignore, man



Goes against my principles. I'll go back to 'personal ignore': I just hate leaving vile personal crap like that just hanging out there.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Goes against my principles. I'll go back to 'personal ignore': I just hate leaving vile personal crap like that just hanging out there.


Wasn't aimed at you 

Belboid, take a chill pill. It's just the internet, put him on ignore.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Wasn't aimed at you
> 
> Belboid, take a chill pill. It's just the internet, put him on ignore.



Ah, I see. 


Good idea. Better he put me on ignore, as opposed to telling me ways to kill myself, because I think the Wire isn't so good.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2009)

OK, I've read the first 5 pages of this thread? Is it worth persevering with or is it just everyone arguing with JC2?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> OK, I've read the first 5 pages of this thread? Is it worth persevering with or is it just everyone arguing with JC2?


It's a JC fest.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2009)

Will I find out stuff I don't know about the Wire or will I fall asleep before gleaning any worthy scrapings of insight?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Nothing that can't be gained from googling 'the wire analysis'


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Will I find out stuff I don't know about the Wire or will I fall asleep before gleaning any worthy scrapings of insight?



naah, tho some of johnnys ramblings are really funny.


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Ah, I see.
> 
> 
> Good idea. Better he put me on ignore, as opposed to telling me ways to kill myself, because I think the Wire isn't so good.



aah well, if thats what you want, tough titty


----------



## Santino (Jan 9, 2009)

belboid said:


> naah, tho some of johnnys ramblings are really funny.


I enjoyed the gradual shift from 'It's not the best thing ever' to 'It's complete shit' and every position in between.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Alex B said:


> I enjoyed the gradual shift from 'It's not the best thing ever' to 'It's complete shit' and every position in between.



I always start out diplomatic, and then, we just see where things take us.


----------



## Santino (Jan 9, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I always start out diplomatic, and then, we just see where things take us.


in your mind


----------



## belboid (Jan 10, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I always start out saying something stupid, and then, we just see how full of shit i can become without actually exploding.



corrected for you


----------



## killer b (Jan 10, 2009)

started series 3 d/ling now.

becoming a zombie.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 12, 2009)

This is a new day for threads about The Wire.


----------



## kained&able (Jan 12, 2009)

yes, yes it is! Good times.

In a kinda related note i hda a dream last night that involved grand theft auto boltimore with lots of missions and charecters ripped straight out of the wire. It was great and so should be done.


dave


----------



## Santino (Jan 12, 2009)

kained&able said:


> In a kinda related note i hda a dream last night that involved grand theft auto boltimore with lots of missions and charecters ripped straight out of the wire. It was great and so should be done.


But you would never be able to win. Every time you thought you were about to win someone would come along and fuck things up.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 12, 2009)

You'd have to spend the first 10 missions standing on the next corner down, pressing X to yell five-oh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 12, 2009)

plus, the school missions would be crushingly dull. Your character would have to grow a shit beard and actually try to teach them kids


Having said that the longshoreman missions would be fairly ace


----------



## Santino (Jan 12, 2009)

Better than the 'listening to phone calls for six months' missions.


----------



## mrsfran (Jan 12, 2009)

Can you be Omar? I'm not playing if I can't be Omar.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jan 12, 2009)

is it only me that thinks Maurice Levy is the greatest/


----------



## kained&able (Jan 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> You'd have to spend the first 10 missions standing on the next corner down, pressing X to yell five-oh.



i had yelling 5-0 and getting on a bike and losing the cops and getting the drugs to a stash house as a mission!

Longshore man to give you smuggling type missions and you picking up stuff and delivering it from there.

I'm sure stick up boy style missions would be done and the mian charceter would clearly be able to get the do-rag and jacket of omar but im not convinced the gaming world would be ready for a gay main charecter.

Rockstar need to get on it. If they do another miami game instead of this i will be pissed.

dave


----------



## BigTom (Jan 13, 2009)

yeah, I reckon it'd make a great computer game.. as it happens I'm just developing a board game themed on the wire (amatuer, personal concern btw, not some kind of licensed commercial project).. the initial prototype will only have dealer (build up corners/organisation/money in order to buy enough legit businesses to become the bank & win) and po-lis (investigate & bust dealer/build up unit & police dept. in order to have enough influence on the politicians to let hamsterdam continue & win).
I want to bring in other roles - fiend (get money to get high. win by surviving or getting clean); rip&run artist [omar] (steal money/drugs to get something in order to win (reputation is my initial instinct, but I don't know).. maybe also youth worker (get hoppers off the corners and win by getting enough hoppers off the corner or something).. but working out how the interaction between the different players would happen is proving difficult.  The game could scale up for #players by having more drug dealer organisations.

anyway, I reckon there's a better computer game out there themed on the wire than a gta theme game, though it would be fun, and would probably get me to play gta again (died for me somewhere during liberty city).


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

BigTom said:


> yeah, I reckon it'd make a great computer game.. as it happens I'm just developing a board game themed on the wire (amatuer, personal concern btw, not some kind of licensed commercial project).. the initial prototype will only have dealer (build up corners/organisation/money in order to buy enough legit businesses to become the bank & win) and po-lis (investigate & bust dealer/build up unit & police dept. in order to have enough influence on the politicians to let hamsterdam continue & win).
> I want to bring in other roles - fiend (get money to get high. win by surviving or getting clean); rip&run artist [omar] (steal money/drugs to get something in order to win (reputation is my initial instinct, but I don't know).. maybe also youth worker (get hoppers off the corners and win by getting enough hoppers off the corner or something).. but working out how the interaction between the different players would happen is proving difficult.  The game could scale up for #players by having more drug dealer organisations.
> 
> anyway, I reckon there's a better computer game out there themed on the wire than a gta theme game, though it would be fun, and would probably get me to play gta again (died for me somewhere during liberty city).





thing is, get two complicated and your looking at either: hex based wargaming OR straight up RPG.

or a board game so complex nobody ever plays it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> or a board game so complex nobody ever plays it.



I like the sound of that.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

I think you'd be better off looking at a card-based game like Magic:TG or Dominion.
Asset Card Decks? CORNER, MUSCLE, SLINGER, WATCHOUT, STASH HOUSE, CONNECT, LAWYER etc.
Action cards? DRIVE BY, MURDER, RE-UP, LAUNDER etc.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 13, 2009)

BigTom said:


> yeah, I reckon it'd make a great computer game.. as it happens I'm just developing a board game themed on the wire (amatuer, personal concern btw, not some kind of licensed commercial project).. the initial prototype will only have dealer (build up corners/organisation/money in order to buy enough legit businesses to become the bank & win) and po-lis (investigate & bust dealer/build up unit & police dept. in order to have enough influence on the politicians to let hamsterdam continue & win).
> I want to bring in other roles - fiend (get money to get high. win by surviving or getting clean); rip&run artist [omar] (steal money/drugs to get something in order to win (reputation is my initial instinct, but I don't know).. maybe also youth worker (get hoppers off the corners and win by getting enough hoppers off the corner or something).. but working out how the interaction between the different players would happen is proving difficult.  The game could scale up for #players by having more drug dealer organisations.
> 
> anyway, I reckon there's a better computer game out there themed on the wire than a gta theme game, though it would be fun, and would probably get me to play gta again (died for me somewhere during liberty city).



I read some essay online where someone goes on at length about how the wire would make a better "statement" as a computer game.  I'll dig it out when I get home...


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2009)

Jeez, you guys are one step away from going to conventions dressed as your favourite character


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

oh god


----------



## belboid (Jan 13, 2009)

BigTom said:


> yeah, I reckon it'd make a great computer game.. as it happens I'm just developing a board game themed on the wire (amatuer, personal concern btw, not some kind of licensed commercial project).. the initial prototype will only have dealer (build up corners/organisation/money in order to buy enough legit businesses to become the bank & win) and po-lis (investigate & bust dealer/build up unit & police dept. in order to have enough influence on the politicians to let hamsterdam continue & win).
> I want to bring in other roles - fiend (get money to get high. win by surviving or getting clean); rip&run artist [omar] (steal money/drugs to get something in order to win (reputation is my initial instinct, but I don't know).. maybe also youth worker (get hoppers off the corners and win by getting enough hoppers off the corner or something).. but working out how the interaction between the different players would happen is proving difficult.  The game could scale up for #players by having more drug dealer organisations.


mm, that sounds as if it could be almost as good as The War On Terror.  I wanna design my own now


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

Belushi said:


> Jeez, you guys are one step away from going to conventions dressed as your favourite character



I am already there.


----------



## foo (Jan 13, 2009)

Belushi said:


> Jeez, you guys are one step away from going to conventions dressed as your favourite character



Crispy as Omar. i'd pay to see that.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2009)

If I black up Im the spitting image of Prop Joe


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

foo said:


> Crispy as Omar. i'd pay to see that.


Oh indeed


----------



## STFC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm not into computer games or anything, but it would be good to see more of The Wire. I think they should develop the short prequels you can watch on the HBO site.

On the other hand, maybe it's best left alone.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Belushi said:


> Jeez, you guys are one step away from going to conventions dressed as your favourite character



I was contemplating going to this years London Expo dressed as omar. 

all I need is the headscarf thing, the gun and the jacket.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2009)

London Expo? Wossat?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I was contemplating going to this years London Expo dressed as omar.
> 
> all I need is the headscarf thing, the gun and the jacket.



I can lend you some guns if you want.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> London Expo? Wossat?



it's a comic/manga/loads of sci fi show, all the new and upcoming stuff previews there.

I usually go round and look at stuff hemorrhage cash, look at the pretty cosplay girls then end up in the manga village with ginger matt.


----------



## Santino (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I usually go round and look at stuff hemorrhage cash, look at the pretty cosplay girls then end up in the manga village with ginger matt.


It's like Hunter S Thompson is still with us.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

You spelled haemorrhage incorrectly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

american spellchecker. Why do the americans hate the ae thing? they are wankers for that.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

For shame, Dotcommunist. _For shame_.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> it's a comic/manga/loads of sci fi show, all the new and upcoming stuff previews there.
> 
> I usually go round and look at stuff hemorrhage cash, look at the pretty cosplay girls then end up in the manga village with ginger matt.



Girls like this?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Girls like this?



more like this, in all honesty








amonst the fellas the predominant outfit seems to be dressing like a member of SG-1- basically they dress like paramilitaries minus the balaclavas


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

The one on the left is fit.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

Dillinger4 said:


> The one on the left is fit.


Phew. Thank fuck I didn't have to wait too long for your verdict. The suspense usually kills me.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Phew. Thank fuck I didn't have to wait too long for your verdict. The suspense usually kills me.



I got in there as quickly as I could.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Phew. Thank fuck I didn't have to wait too long for your verdict. The suspense usually kills me.



spot the bored, unemployed young men on this board


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> spot the bored, unemployed young men on this board



I am a productive member of society.


----------



## The Groke (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> two complicated


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Swarfega said:


>



look when I am waxing lyrical about Malazan my excitement overrides my normally impeccable literary standards


----------



## The Groke (Jan 13, 2009)

But you were waxing lyrical about The _Wire_ you ninny...

DotCommunistCrossthreadbrainmelt.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2009)

you know one of the last things i expected to see on this thread was sailor fuku


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Swarfega said:


> But you were waxing lyrical about The _Wire_ you ninny...
> 
> DotCommunistCrossthreadbrainmelt.



curses. I am going to start drinking _right now_


----------



## BigTom (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> or a board game so complex nobody ever plays it.



Which is the kind of game I like, but never get to play cos no-one wants to play it with me  [looks at diplomacy wistfully]
Also why I think it'd work better as a computer game, which can be more complex, take days to play etc.. 
anyway, if I can't make this game simple enough to be fun playing, then it'll not get played, so there's no point.



Crispy said:


> I think you'd be better off looking at a card-based game like Magic:TG or Dominion.



I never want to write lots of cards for a game again  dominion I've not played, though it looks interesting. m:tg stole too much money from me. ccg's =never again.
I just like the idea of 4 players, each playing a different style of game, but interacting on the same game board with each other.. it probably is too complicated though.

(btw, on the topic of this thread, I think the wire is great, and jc2 is more or less wrong about everything.)


----------



## belboid (Jan 13, 2009)

You could get loads of different Wire games all on one board I reckon.  A Scotland Yard type one where you have to find and kill Omar before he nicks all your stashes, a territorial/Risk one with different gangs fighting each other and the cops, and, umm, sme others, all based on a simple(ish) board of the city.  Could be a goer.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm still going for a straight up RPG, using heavily adapted D&D rules. Gyger would approve, I think


----------



## Santino (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm still going for a straight up RPG, using heavily adapted D&D rules. Gyger would approve, I think


Gygax, you mentalist


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Alex B said:


> Gygax, you mentalist



you know who I meant ffs.

either way, the wire game would be best done as an RPG.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

and buy Gardens of the Moon ffs. 

You'll cream your chinos man.


----------



## Santino (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> and buy Gardens of the Moon ffs.
> 
> You'll cream your chinos man.


I'm wearing chinos right now 

I even changed my trews when I got home from work. Maybe if I'd had them on earlier I would have purchased that tome


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Alex B said:


> I'm wearing chinos right now
> 
> I even changed my trews when I got home from work. Maybe if I'd had them on earlier I would have purchased that tome



of course you are. You only exist to confirm my stereotypes. 


Srsly read the Malazan.


----------



## belboid (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm still going for a straight up RPG, using heavily adapted D&D rules.



oh god no!  Sod D&D type RPG games <shudder>.  Good old fashioned board games that all the family can play are the way to go


----------



## Santino (Jan 13, 2009)

I do like the idea of a board game in which everyone has a different thing to do, but they help and hinder the other players as they do it. So taking down rival dealers fucks up the Po-lice player's murder rate; keeping the crime figures down helps a Mayor stay in office etc etc.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

I bet Dotcommunist can't guess what kind of trousers *I* am wearing.


----------



## belboid (Jan 13, 2009)

Alex B said:


> I do like the idea of a board game in which everyone has a different thing to do, but they help and hinder the other players as they do it. So taking down rival dealers fucks up the Po-lice player's murder rate; keeping the crime figures down helps a Mayor stay in office etc etc.



you need two drug gangs at the very least.


----------



## belboid (Jan 13, 2009)

there are some really good podcasts on 'the legacy of The Wire' available via iTunes from BlogTalk Radio.  Well worth a listen, search for 'Back After Midnight'.  There are ones on the legacy of the Soprano's & Deadwood too that are darn good, as well as a fascinating interview with Thelma Schoonmaker no the new DVD of A Matter of Life & Death and Age of Consent.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Alex B said:


> I do like the idea of a board game in which everyone has a different thing to do, but they help and hinder the other players as they do it. So taking down rival dealers fucks up the Po-lice player's murder rate; keeping the crime figures down helps a Mayor stay in office etc etc.



again we encounter the 'too complex to play' rule


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2009)

Dillinger4 said:


> I bet Dotcommunist can't guess what kind of trousers *I* am wearing.



you are wearing the cords of fail, obviously


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 13, 2009)

Alex B said:


> I do like the idea of a board game in which everyone has a different thing to do, but they help and hinder the other players as they do it. So taking down rival dealers fucks up the Po-lice player's murder rate; keeping the crime figures down helps a Mayor stay in office etc etc.



If that was official though that would be _such_ a sell out


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jan 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> you are wearing the cords of fail, obviously



Wrong. 

It was a trick question. I am not wearing any trousers.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2009)

actually i think a game with a total war style interface might be good...  you could have a city view where you can control things like training up people hadeling money   the control aspect ... but then you coulkd also go down into street mode  and  take control of robbing a store  or  busting a crack house

and multiplayer would be cool


----------



## shoeshopsally (Jan 13, 2009)

reading your posts has made want to watch it too,is the wire on any uk television? 5 channels or cable??or do i have to just invest in a box set as the rest of you seem to have.p.s. does anyone know of any plans to bring it to the uk?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

it's not showing at the moment. so yes, it's DVDs or dodgy downloads


----------



## jayeola (Jan 13, 2009)

lazy post alert:- it's very good.


----------



## Santino (Jan 14, 2009)

jayeola said:


> lazy post alert:- it's very good.


^This.


----------



## Flashman (Jan 14, 2009)

The Corner is being shown on FX at the mo, don't know how long it's been running (or how many eps there are) I chanced upon it by accident t'other night and am Sky+ing them all.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

There's 6 episodes.
Gary's Blues
DeAndre's Blues
Fran's Blues
Dope Fiend Blues
Corner Boy Blues
Everyman's Blues

Play 'spot the wire actor' - best is freamon as the shambling old junkie.


----------



## Flashman (Jan 14, 2009)

Cheers Crispy, just checked and it's Gary's Blues I have on the box so it looks like I've caught the first one.

Huzzah.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 14, 2009)

Missed the first one, but been keeping an eye out for this for ages.  Huzzah!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> There's 6 episodes.
> Gary's Blues
> DeAndre's Blues
> Fran's Blues
> ...


You should watch Oz next - it's got shitloads of Wire actors in it and it's brilliant - I have the first 4 series if you want to borrow them Crispy


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 14, 2009)

You probably shouldn't bother, as it's a load of arse, but the Kill Point has bodie, omar and jonnie (bubs partner up to season 3, the guy from kids)


----------



## El Jefe (Jan 14, 2009)

Orang Utan said:


> You should watch Oz next - it's got shitloads of Wire actors in it and it's brilliant - I have the first 4 series if you want to borrow them Crispy



it's fucking repetitive though, the first 2-3 seasons are good, but then it just goes on and on. In the end it's like a never-ending gay porn film with a veneer of plot


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 14, 2009)

It is a bit, but I still like it.
There's a bit in The Wire with Omar and his boyfriend watching Keller and Beecher getting it on.


----------



## EddyBlack (Jan 14, 2009)

Quite good. Entertaining, but ultimately unfullfilling if you are talking about it as some great work. It simply isn't. Not that anyone on this thread has said so but as some of you will recall people on this board have said that it is better than Shakespeare and Dickens. Laughable really for what is just an interesting show, with exciting themes, but has only adequate actors and dialogue.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2009)

EddyBlack said:


> Quite good. Entertaining, but ultimately unfullfilling if you are talking about it as some great work. It simply isn't. Not that anyone on this thread has said so but as some of you will recall people on this board have said that it is better than Shakespeare and Dickens. Laughable really for what is just an interesting show, with exciting themes, but has only adequate actors and dialogue.



Shakespeare was populist stuff when written, same as Chaucer. 

I don't care to compare the wire against such, but conversely to hold the works of Will as somehow superior to this decades finest piece of entertainment is equally a laughable false dichotomy. I bite my thumb at thee while recording every conversation you have made for the last six months


----------



## EddyBlack (Jan 15, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Shakespeare was populist stuff when written, same as Chaucer.
> 
> I don't care to compare the wire against such, but conversely to hold the works of Will as somehow superior to this decades finest piece of entertainment is equally a laughable false dichotomy. I bite my thumb at thee while recording every conversation you have made for the last six months



Will was amazing, the best poetry and drama, ever really. That I've heard anyway. I cant quite believe that anybody could disagree if they've actually seen it well performed. Well lets not turn this into a ramble about Shakespeare's brilliance.

Download 4od from channel 4 and do the following: 

4od > TV > Drama > King Lear

If you still disagree after watching that, then get back to me with what is clearly a false dichotemy.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 15, 2009)

EddyBlack said:


> Will was amazing, the best poetry and drama, ever really. That I've heard anyway. I cant quite believe that anybody could disagree if they've actually seen it well performed. Well lets not turn this into a ramble about Shakespeare's brilliance.
> 
> Download 4od from channel 4 and do the following:
> 
> ...



I think DotCom's point is that Shakespere is now perceived as much more superior and high art than it was in its day. I mean, if you look at something like Measure for Measure, a lot of it is just bawdy smut! With a central story line of hypocrisy and corruption in governing bodies, which actually wouldn't look out of place with a Wire comparison. 

And whilst King Lear is good, it is also very long and sent my friend to sleep!


----------



## elevendayempire (Jan 15, 2009)

Idris Elba's joining The Office, of all things:

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/tvnews.php?id=51960


----------



## Santino (Jan 15, 2009)

By sheer virtue of the medium in which they were working, and the resources which were available the them, the creators of The Wire were able to achieve things that Shakespeare couldn't have begun to dream of. We might as well compare Beowulf with Sgt Pepper for all the good it will do.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 11, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> You probably shouldn't bother, as it's a load of arse, but the Kill Point has bodie, omar and jonnie...


 
...and Brianna Barksdale.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 11, 2012)

elevendayempire said:


> Idris Elba's joining The Office, of all things:
> 
> http://www.comingsoon.net/news/tvnews.php?id=51960


 
He was pretty good in it, too. Shows the benefit of good direction and a good script.


----------



## MillwallShoes (Dec 11, 2012)

it's great,

but there were huge swaths of it that really didn't sink in with me and thus found myself bored as much as i was entertained.

exceptionally clever though, fo sho


----------



## Left (Dec 11, 2012)

It's good, but heavily flawed.
Portrayal of women (especially black women) is at times appalling.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> It's good, but heavily flawed.
> Portrayal of women (especially black women) is at times appalling.


Would you care to expand on that?


----------



## Left (Dec 11, 2012)

Characters like Bodie do bad things but are definitely not "villains" in the traditional sense - if anything they are portrayed more as victims. Characters like Namond's mother and Wallace's mother are apparently just evil - another oppressive force in the lives of the male characters. 

There is a total lack of working class female perspectives, which is pretty bad for a show that attempts (in its creator's own words) to be a portrayal of an entire city.


----------



## Left (Dec 11, 2012)

A specific thing that pissed me off was the judgmental pan to the picture of D'Angelo while his girlfriend (forget her name) was sleeping with Stringer. But apparently it was fine for D'Angelo to be cheating on her in earlier episodes.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 11, 2012)

No one is portrayed as evil in the programme. You've misread it totally if you think that.


----------



## Left (Dec 11, 2012)

OK but you have to admit there was very little nuance in the portrayal of Namond's mother.


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> It's good, but heavily flawed.
> Portrayal of women (especially black women) is at times appalling.


Kima and Beadie immediately spring to mind to contradict your thesis


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> OK but you have to admit there was very little nuance in the portrayal of Namond's mother.


I don't agree. I see a desperate woman who will do some terrible things to escape poverty. It's heartbreaking seeing her sabotage Namond's attempt to do the same legitimately .


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> OK but you have to admit there was very little nuance in the portrayal of Namond's mother.


Yes there was. A very intelligent and determined woman.


----------



## Left (Dec 11, 2012)

Kima - I'll grant you that one.
Beadie - what a boring character. And her role post season 2 revolved entirely around making McNulty happy.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 11, 2012)

belboid said:


> Kima and Beadie immediately spring to mind to contradict your thesis



Let's not forget that Omar had two gun totting women in his crew too. That politics woman who gave McNaulty a taste of his own medicine. 

Um and snoop is the best char by far and she is female. 

So quite a wide range of portrayal if you ask me. Women feature in every aspect of the programme from those on the streets, in the force, politics and the legal profession. 

No one is painted whiter than white, good or bad. Men and women are shown as humans. Even Kima has those issues with adopting and cheats as a result before coming to terms with it all etc. rather than being all perfect. 

To be honest anyone thinking that women aren't represented realistically (within the boundaries of making it interesting) in the Wire are IMO already expecting such and are trying their best to twist it to their preconceived expectation.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> Characters like Bodie do bad things but are definitely not "villains" in the traditional sense - if anything they are portrayed more as victims. Characters like Namond's mother and Wallace's mother are apparently just evil - another oppressive force in the lives of the male characters.



That's your interpretation. 

I see them just as much as victims of the game as the rest. 

The games the game and they've been indoctrinated into their way of behaving the same as the men trapped into the life.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 11, 2012)

This thread has made me want to break out my box set and go on a Wireathon.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> Kima - I'll grant you that one.
> Beadie - what a boring character. And her role post season 2 revolved entirely around making McNulty happy.



Her role becomes the representation of the hapiness McNulty could have if he stays away from the job that ruins him and the becomes the embodiment of the happiness he throws away when he doesn't. 

Something had to represent it and she serves the need to drive it home well.


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> Beadie - what a boring character.


bollocks


----------



## BlackArab (Dec 11, 2012)

Left said:


> Kima - I'll grant you that one.
> Beadie - what a boring character. And her role post season 2 revolved entirely around making McNulty happy.


 
Randy's foster mother? The female teachers who were the only truly effective forces holding a failing education system together? I can also think of two or three female political characters more than capable of holding their own in their own fields.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 20, 2021)




----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 20, 2021)

Is that Poot? I loved seeing him end up working in a shoe shop.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 20, 2021)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Is that Poot? I loved seeing him end up working in a shoe shop.



Yeah it is, that was a great scene. So sad seeing the young lad whose name I'm forgetting trying to escape the street but having no routes to do so. "Guess you just need to keep banging for a few years then come back and see if we've got anything".


----------



## paul mckenna (Jul 21, 2021)

BigTom said:


> Yeah it is, that was a great scene. So sad seeing the young lad whose name I'm forgetting trying to escape the street but having no routes to do so. "Guess you just need to keep banging for a few years then come back and see if we've got anything".


Brody. Killed by his "successor" Michael


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 21, 2021)

BigTom said:


> Yeah it is, that was a great scene. So sad seeing the young lad whose name I'm forgetting trying to escape the street but having no routes to do so. "Guess you just need to keep banging for a few years then come back and see if we've got anything".



It's Dukie isn't it. Yeah that's one of those scenes that really hits home, how young these kids are - just making it to the age where you might be able to get a regular job somewhere like a shoe shop is an achievement.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jul 21, 2021)

Slightly off topic. But whilst watching the latest and last series of Bosch on Amazon last week, the character of Jerry Edgar, played by Jamie Hector (Marlo Stanfield in The Wire) Bosch’s detective partner, was told by another detective, that a woman involved in the case they were working was like Stringer Bell in The Wire.
Straight faced Jamie Hector replied “yeah, I binged that”


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 21, 2021)

paul mckenna said:


> Brody. Killed by his "successor" Michael


Bodie. That scene where he is killed is a callback to the chess board scene in S1 - the three that attack him move like different chess pieces.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 21, 2021)

paul mckenna said:


> Brody. Killed by his "successor" Michael



No, as Monkeygrinder's Organ said - it was Dukie who went to the shop, and became the new bubbles in the end as we saw him shooting up in the stables - the only place that would take him in.

Michael became the new Omar rather than Bodie and I can't remenber if it was Michael, Snoop or Chris who did the actual shooting.

I think it was Naymond (Wee bay's kid) who should have become the new Bodie but wasn't streetwise enough. He got saved by Bunny Colvin - an ongoing theme that the system will fail the people it's meant to help and only by going outside the system can someone be saved - Randy got fucked by the system and you saw Carver trying to save him but not being able to go outside of the system to do it.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 21, 2021)

BigTom said:


> Michael became the new Omar rather than Bodie and I can't remenber if it was Michael, Snoop or Chris who did the actual shooting.



It was one of the other younger trainee 'muscle' types wasn't it? Because Michael knew Bodie and the first time had to be someone he didn't know.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 21, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It was one of the other younger trainee 'muscle' types wasn't it? Because Michael knew Bodie and the first time had to be someone he didn't know.


No, it was Michael that killed Bodie as part of the training he was doing under Chris and Snoop.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 21, 2021)

BigTom said:


> I think it was Naymond (Wee bay's kid) who should have become the new Bodie but wasn't streetwise enough. He got saved by Bunny Colvin - an ongoing theme that the system will fail the people it's meant to help and only by going outside the system can someone be saved - Randy got fucked by the system and you saw Carver trying to save him but not being able to go outside of the system to do it.



My interpretation of that was always that it was one of Simon's more heavy handed (although important) points. That with a little bit of care and support the kids would be fine. Namond has to be the one 'saved' because he's the worst at the beginning - his dad is a multiple killer, his mum is a nightmare, and he's the one who ends up the dysfunctional class. So if it can happen to him it could be any of them given the opportunity.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 21, 2021)

Buddy Bradley said:


> No, it was Michael that killed Bodie as part of the training he was doing under Chris and Snoop.



Nope, just checked and it was a character called O-Dog - he's also in the ambush on Omar in Season 5.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 21, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> My interpretation of that was always that it was one of Simon's more heavy handed (although important) points. That with a little bit of care and support the kids would be fine. Namond has to be the one 'saved' because he's the worst at the beginning - his dad is a multiple killer, his mum is a nightmare, and he's the one who ends up the dysfunctional class. So if it can happen to him it could be any of them given the opportunity.



I think that's true as well, but you see systems failing people all over the place - the group homes and school do not serve the children's needs well (the foster mother does though, as an individual within the system). The police do not help the community with their war on drugs, bunny colvin goes outside the system to actually help the west side community. Politicians use the political system to line their own pockets and do not help the dockers, instead of the grain pier we get some luxury flats because it looks good for Carcetti's run at governor, not because it helps the dockside community and that's because of the way the system is setup and how it drives people within it.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 21, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Nope, just checked and it was a character called O-Dog - he's also in the ambush on Omar in Season 5.



That's interesting - I remember the scene with Chris and Marlo and Chris saying it shouldn't be Michael that kills Bodie but I thought Marlo disagreed and although you barely see him in that clip I thought that was Michael and it was part of the reason he got turned off Marlo's crew and decided to go out on his own.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 21, 2021)

BigTom said:


> I think that's true as well, but you see systems failing people all over the place - the group homes and school do not serve the children's needs well (the foster mother does though, as an individual within the system). The police do not help the community with their war on drugs, bunny colvin goes outside the system to actually help the west side community. Politicians use the political system to line their own pockets and do not help the dockers, instead of the grain pier we get some luxury flats because it looks good for Carcetti's run at governor, not because it helps the dockside community and that's because of the way the system is setup and how it drives people within it.



Yes definitely - the failure of the systems is the key message of the whole thing isn't it. It's in everything about the programme. That's what I mean about Namond being saved by Colvin specifically though. In line with the rest of the show and that theme the obvious ending for him would be to end up being shot or in a gang wouldn't it? And that would probably be more in keeping with the realistic feel of the show, after all how often does something like that really happen? Which is why it does feel a bit heavy handed, but it's there to make the point that it could happen more than that it does.


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 21, 2021)

We're due a second run at this having watched it around 4 years ago for the first time.


----------



## mhendo (Jul 21, 2021)

paul mckenna said:


> Brody. Killed by his "successor" Michael


Bodie. And he wasn't actually killed by Michael. Marlo was going to get Michael to do it, but then decided that Michael's first kill should not be someone that he knew and worked with. Bodie was killed by O-Dog, another one of Marlo's people.

Also, Michael wasn't really Bodie's successor, because he didn't end up on the corner; Michael finished the series robbing drug dealers, making him more like Omar's successor.


----------



## paul mckenna (Jul 28, 2021)

mhendo said:


> Bodie. And he wasn't actually killed by Michael. Marlo was going to get Michael to do it, but then decided that Michael's first kill should not be someone that he knew and worked with. Bodie was killed by O-Dog, another one of Marlo's people.
> 
> Also, Michael wasn't really Bodie's successor, because he didn't end up on the corner; Michael finished the series robbing drug dealers, making him more like Omar's successor.


Yes you (all) are correct. I fucked up ok?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 28, 2021)

YouTube comments under clips of The Wire are among the most insightful on the site, would you believe. Little gems like the chessboard scene explaining the pawns rarely get to the other side but the series has Slim Charles doing just that - a very real exception.

It really is up there with the best telly tbh.


----------



## paul mckenna (Jul 28, 2021)

Youtube comments have been cleaned up a crazy amount generally. Dunno if it's down to tech or a demographic shift


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2021)

mhendo said:


> Bodie. And he wasn't actually killed by Michael. Marlo was going to get Michael to do it, but then decided that Michael's first kill should not be someone that he knew and worked with. Bodie was killed by O-Dog, another one of Marlo's people.
> 
> Also, Michael wasn't really Bodie's successor, because he didn't end up on the corner; Michael finished the series robbing drug dealers, making him more like Omar's successor.


I thought it was Michael too, but it seems you are right. That series is hard to get through on a second or more viewing, the relentless disappointments for the young is tough.


----------



## paul mckenna (Jul 28, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I thought it was Michael too, but it seems you are right. That series is hard to get through on a second or more viewing, the relentless disappointments for the young is tough.


Skipping school and dropping bodies. Sounds alright to me 😎


----------



## Riklet (Jul 28, 2021)

Rewatched the whole thing 2 years ago.

Season 2 and season 4 man. The best you can get.


----------



## paul mckenna (Jul 28, 2021)

Riklet said:


> Rewatched the whole thing 2 years ago.
> 
> Season 2 and season 4 man. The best you can get.


Totally. It makes you think that the leading man/woman in the show as a whole is Baltimore. That's gotta be the first show that did such an about-face, especially so early


----------



## rubbershoes (Jul 28, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I thought it was Michael too, but it seems you are right. That series is hard to get through on a second or more viewing, the relentless disappointments for the young is tough.



I found subsequent viewings easier. You know the shit that's going to happen and so aren't tied up in the plot. You can revel in the superb writing, the comments and actions by a character that come back and bite them or come to glory a few series later


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 28, 2021)

BTW if you really want to nerd it up I enjoyed this podcast last year: Introducing ‘The Wire: Way Down in the Hole’

The two presenters are both from sports broadcasting backgrounds so you need a high tolerance for basketball references but otherwise it's really good.


----------

