# Georgie: Android app for blind / visually impaired people



## mrs quoad (Jul 18, 2012)

Bleh.

My dad's been looking at this (or Siri / iPhone) as he's completely blind & interested in getting a phone, if he'll realistically be able to use it.

He went to the 'Sight Village' exhibition in Brum yesterday, and was moderately impressed by Georgie.

This seems to be the most comprehensive overview I've encountered so far, and that isn't saying much: http://mashable.com/2012/07/17/android-app-for-blind-smartphone-users/

It links to this video: 

I'd really appreciate any information, thoughts or real-world feedback about this.

My dad had been seeing it as directly comparable to Siri, the main difference being the £ridiculous for an iPhone vs the £less ridiculous for a Galaxy Y (£300 with the £150 app loaded, tbf).

I had originally taken his word for it, and'd got the impression that Siri was arse-faced for what he wanted. Like, it might be a bit of a PITA, and it's not specifically designed for blind people. Unlike Georgie.

But the more I've browsed about it, the less convinced I've become.

The impression I've got is that it's almost entirely touch-based, with the exception of voice recognition for text messages. So, like, hold the screen until it tells you what button your finger's on. Then press that button. Which, ok, is great in terms of making touch screens more accessible to blind people (I'm less interested in partially sighted bc that's not what my dad is, though the buttons can also be made good / high contrast colours). But sounds like - IMinitialU - a bit arsefaced and messy in terms of interface.

So, Christ... looking at the Youtube _promotional_ video... I'm left with the impression that in order to text, my dad would have to negotiate to the text screen via buttons, and _then _would be able to use whatever voice recognition technology to write it, and would then have to find / hit the button for send.

To _dial a phone number _he'd have to navigate to the 'phone' button, then hold his finger on each button to work out where he was to type 'zero.... seven.... seven..... six..... five....) etc. Which... just sounds... fucked up. tbh. An improvement on unmoderated touch screens, but shit - utterly shit - compared to (e.g.) a phone with a HARD NUMBERPAD. (Though those might lack voice recognition, and it might be more difficult to navigate to the right screen).

Benefits?

Text recognition from the camera. But that's an extra £25 (in addition to the £150 cost of the app). As part of the 'communications' DLC / package.

Newspapers read out loud. That's an extra £25, too, as part of the 'lifestyles' package.

You can also programme in GPS warnings - so that as you walk around your favourite routes, you can have a warning about an upcoming low branch that you walked into last week. AFAICT, that's free.

And a 'panic' button, which instantly sends your GPS position to your wife / carer, so she can call you up and tell you where you are / drive out and find you. Think that's part of the £25 communications package.




SO.... long story short... if those DLCs / additions are worth it - to him - I'm guessing Georgie might be a goer for my dad.

Otherwise... am I missing something? It sounds like £150 for a not-great interface that just about bastardises a touch screen phone to a point of functionality, with the useful 'camera text recognition' function bolting another £25 onto that.

So, like, £300 for a Galaxy Y with Georgie pre-installed (pretty sure you could find the Y cheaper and DL Georgie for the £150, but ay).




On that basis, tbh I'm tempted to suggest to my dad that he at least tries out Siri before going ahead with Georgie. If only because - shit as the voice recognition may be - it sounds one fuck of a lot smoother for most day-to-day functions than Georgie.

Though, like I said, any outside input / suggestions / thoughts greatly appreciated


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## mrs quoad (Jul 18, 2012)

Similarly - other integrated / accessibility apps, particularly for blind people, greatly appreciated!


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## mrs quoad (Jul 18, 2012)

In a nutshell:



			
				developer's website said:
			
		

> Download Georgie and your phone will display a few large bright buttons.
> If you touch a button, it will speak its name.
> If you continue to hold your finger on a button, it will beep.
> This is the Georgie interface, the easiest way to manage a smartphone.


 
Really does sound like there're no voice commands (or equivalent).

I'm massively unconvinced; then again, I'm not blind


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## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

Annoyingly noisy demo here:


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## grit (Jul 18, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Really does sound like there're no voice commands (or equivalent).


 
The approach they describe seems to be the best to be honest, getting the voice recognition to an acceptable standard would be a massive feat of engineering.


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## xenon (Jul 18, 2012)

I'll need to ask my sister more detail. She uses a screenreader app on an Android. It's a suite of accessable apps, giving access to many of the phone's functions but has it's own web browser, amongst other accessable alternatives. Personlly, I don't like this approach if I've any choice. I want access to the stuff already there, not more processes to run. 

Speaking as a blind IOS user myself, my understanding in general terms. The touch screen accessability on phones other than the Iphone, has not been solved. To use an Android phone with any screenreader app, you need one with a physical QWERTY keyboard before you can consider the software you'll need.

My current phone is a Nokia E52 (standard T9 layout)running Talx screenreader software on Symbion. This works pretty well, though there's noteable overhead in terms of sppeed and battery life. With IOS, I use an aging Ipod Touch 3G with Voiceover and it works extremely well. Many of the third party apps also work well, though you're best to read reviews before hand. (Excluding most games for obvious reasons.) 

I'm due an upgrade and aside money issues ATM, I'm going for the Iphone 4S. For all the flack Apple get, they get stuff right regarding this. It works out of the box.

Regarding Siri. I tried this on a friend's phone the other day. Admittidly they were simple queries but I could use Siri, with Voiceover running too, for a couple of Google searches.


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## xenon (Jul 18, 2012)

General note. What sighted peple think of as accessable, often times is gimicky or pretty useless. Just because it speaks some things, doesn't mean you can use it for much in a real world situation.

If you're dad can afford it, I'd definitely recommend trying the Iphone.

Though maybe harder to get due to touch screen being vogue, Talx on a Nokia with physical keys, works fine if you just want a regular smart phone.

As in. I can use my Nokia for Youtube, Facebook, all the normal phone stuff. Obv some websites are impracticlly slow to navigate using it and the Ipod Touch is better. But then, a PC with QWERTY keyboard I need for other things too.


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## grit (Jul 18, 2012)

xenon said:


> I'll need to ask my sister more detail. She uses a screenreader app on an Android. It's a suite of accessable apps, giving access to many of the phone's functions but has it's own web browser, amongst other accessable alternatives. Personlly, I don't like this approach if I've any choice. I want access to the stuff already there, not more processes to run.
> 
> Speaking as a blind IOS user myself, my understanding in general terms. The touch screen accessability on phones other than the Iphone, has not been solved. To use an Android phone with any screenreader app, you need one with a physical QWERTY keyboard before you can consider the software you'll need.
> 
> ...


 
Wow, thats fascinating, the lack of tactile feedback always made me wonder how a blind person deals with this shift in phones... sounds like there is a huge gap in the market on android at least to try and solve this problem.... I'm getting ideas.


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## xenon (Jul 18, 2012)

grit said:


> Wow, thats fascinating, the lack of tactile feedback always made me wonder how a blind person deals with this shift in phones... sounds like there is a huge gap in the market on android at least to try and solve this problem.... I'm getting ideas.



Yep. It was a revelation, being able to use a touch screen. Seriously, I'm no Apple fanboy. Don't own a mac, etc. But the Ipod Touch is one of the best things I've ever bought. Needed someone to switch Voiceover on initially but I still marvle at having this little pocket computer thing. (Although I don't post to Urban from it. Typing is a bit slow.)

FWIW The way it works with Voiceover. You tap the screen, it announces what you've tapped. To activate it, then do a double tap. There are different jestures to the usual ones, for moving around. Flick left and right to move on to next icon. Double finger swipe down, to read from top of screen, double finger tap to stop and start reading from where the focuss is, etc.


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## xenon (Jul 18, 2012)

Just spoke to my sister,she uses the Android software, Mobile Accessability by Code Factory.
http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=415

Apparently it can work on a touch screen but you need to at least, have a physical cursor key. She's not been using it that long so can't give you any feedback on web accessability etc ATM. it uses it's own suite of aps though. So I'm not sure how much access you get to the build in utilities in Android OS. (That would irc me TBH.) Course the problem is, you need to have an Android phone to try this stuff to start with. If your dad's on a contract Mrs Q, pull the whole reasonable adjustment thing, to get an Iphone 4S, if he decides to go that route. it's worked for a blind friend on Vodafone, though only after they sent her a series of Android phone upgrades she couldn't use...


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## mrs quoad (Jul 18, 2012)

He's entirely new to mobiles. He's just retired (from being a self-employed publisher, which probably indicates how willing he is to engage with assistive technologies...) and is - I think - enjoying having a bit of spare time to e.g. explore mobile phones


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## xenon (Jul 18, 2012)

ISTR you have / had an Ipod Touch Mrs Q? If it's 3G or later, you should be able to switch voiceover on / off with a tripple click on the home button, for a play round. I can see it would be difficult for someone not very dexterous but you can get round the screens pretty quickly. I could get quicker at actually typing on it but I'm lazy...

This might help regarding the Talx software I use. Basically it runs on certain phones running Symbion. I'll be interested to see what progress Microsoft and Nokia make with accessability on their newer phones.

http://www.nuance.co.uk/for-individuals/by-solution/talks-zooms/phones/index.htm

With that, it repurposes one of the Nokia keys to operate a  second tear of functions. Pressing the "Talx" key then F2, reads the status item, for example. Texting and usual phone stuff works absolutely fine with  Predictive text off.

Costs circa £150 although if on a contract, the provider should really pay for it. or at least, Vodafone did for me.

As a compettetor there's also Mobile Speak by Code Factory but I've no experience of it.
http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=316


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## mrs quoad (Jul 18, 2012)

xenon said:


> ISTR you have / had an Ipod Touch Mrs Q? If it's 3G or later, you should be able to switch voiceover on / off with a tripple click on the home button, for a play round. I can see it would be difficult for someone not very dexterous but you can get round the screens pretty quickly. I could get quicker at actually typing on it but I'm lazy...


Yeah - and thanks for this. We've got two iPod 4gs and an iPad floating around, too.

My dad's visiting this w/e (got a birthday next week) so I've suggested trialling VoiceOver whilst he's up. That'd be in addition / alongside Siri, obv, but it'd at least begin to give him an idea of what's out there.

I've forwarded him your first couple of answers, too; and'll forward the rest should he voice any interest in Talx 

Many thanks!


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## xenon (Jul 18, 2012)

NO worries. 

Last couple of things.  If that tripple tap home doesn't switch Voiceover on, go to the settings / accessability options. There's also a screen there, where you can practise the voiceover jestures.

And be aware, with Voiceover on, it's possible to toggle mute the speech by a double tap with 3 fingers but voiceover's still running.


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## mrs quoad (Jul 18, 2012)

Ahhh, triple click won't do it because I've got my triple clicks set to 'negative colouring' 

But I had a scan earlier and it looks easy enough. Wouldn't do it until my dad was getting here anyhoos.

But ty!


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## grit (Jul 19, 2012)

xenon said:


> ISTR you have / had an Ipod Touch Mrs Q? If it's 3G or later, you should be able to switch voiceover on / off with a tripple click on the home button, for a play round. I can see it would be difficult for someone not very dexterous but you can get round the screens pretty quickly. I could get quicker at actually typing on it but I'm lazy...
> 
> This might help regarding the Talx software I use. Basically it runs on certain phones running Symbion. I'll be interested to see what progress Microsoft and Nokia make with accessability on their newer phones.
> 
> ...


 
Xenon, excuse my curiosity, but how do you compose your posts on urban?


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## Dan U (Jul 19, 2012)

my blind step father uses a screen reader on an android based phone with a physical keyboard. he is nearing 70 and copes fine (although he has been blind since birth and loves technology)

he is interested in using Siri so will be keen to see how Xenon gets on


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## xenon (Jul 19, 2012)

grit said:


> Xenon, excuse my curiosity, but how do you compose your posts on urban?



Using Windows, for the most part, i use JAWS screenreader.

Everything done through keyboard shortcus, - no mouse. Though you can simulate a mouseclick. Is very customiseable and works with most regular software. With caviets. A lot of flash, web based stuff and Java apps, are a problem. The software is pretty expensive too. I'm about 3 major versions out of date. 

FWIW I use Linux a bit too and again whilst not perfect accessability wise, can still get a lot done.
Vinux Distro



Dan U said:


> my blind step father uses a screen reader on an android based phone with a physical keyboard. he is nearing 70 and copes fine (although he has been blind since birth and loves technology)
> 
> he is interested in using Siri so will be keen to see how Xenon gets on



Not sure when I'll upgrade. I'll post a quick update if people interested. When I did use it allbeit briefly in a fairly quiet room, I was quite impressed with it's accuracy and response time.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 8, 2012)

Well, here's my dad's take on Georgie after one day. Bits in square brackets are addenda to the email he sent the Georgie people.



> This is the email I sent Georgie last night. They have answered some points,
> and are working on others. This is a drawback of having version 1.04, but
> there is progress. I have sent a text and made phone calls, and found out
> what colour a chair is. I need to experiment with mum on answering calls;
> ...


 
10 sales in the last week - I'm guessing that'll mean that development mightn't be rocket fast. Though, tbf, that's sales of handsets _with _Georgie, rather than the software itself...


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2012)

The couple of people who developed it are leading lights in British Computer Association of the Blind.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 9, 2012)

After 3-ish days, he still hasn't managed to send a text (based on voice recognition) on his own, and hasn't yet worked out how to get it to read his texts back to him. My mum's checking them (and - unsurprisingly, given it's voice recognition) finding a fair few unreadable / incomprehensible errors.

He's managing to answer one in 3 calls (with the other 2 in 3 hanging up automatically or accidentally diverting to voicemail).

And fuck only knows what he's doing with what, but he insists he's (with help) sent me two texts and called me once, but nothing's come through 

If this wasn't his first phone, if he wasn't able to write 'personal' emails to the inventor, and if he wasn't experiencing the joys of feeling like an outright early adopter, I kinda get the feeling this might've gone back. I get the feeling that it's - actually - not helping him (yet) in any way that an iPhone couldn't've done; but (perhaps unsurprisingly) with far worse integration, and a tonne of 'hidden' (i.e. dumb / unspoken) options - like the mute button, and whatever the fuck it was that DLed £25 of stuff on his first day.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 9, 2012)

> Perhaps the extra money for an iphone SIRI might have been worth it! I have
> become aware of so much overselling of Georgie since getting it. The
> newspaper = Coventry Times and two other equally noteworthy. The podcasts =
> In Touch! Books - OK, I already knew it was only five. But maybe in a year
> ...


^^^ unprompted, btw. I've been careful not to mention iPhones, as I'm aware that my horror at / interpretation of his experience with Georgie might be skewed by my expectations of technology. And familiarity with phones. And lack of blindness.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 10, 2012)

Following another 4 emails to Georgie's support today (which I've been copied into ) I think this is the crux of the matter:



> I am compiling a further list of suggestions for improvements, following my email of earlier this week.


 
My dad *loves* being involved like that 

Following his retirement, he's now got a new project.

(((((Developers)))))


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## xenon (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't know how the voice recognition for Georgie works. As in, whether they  have their own back end servers, like Siri. Or the interpreatation is done on the handset. Which sounds very taxing on the phone's resources. Shame to hear it's not exactly been a smooth introduction. 

I haven't got a new phone yet. Realising I would miss physical buttons quite a bit. Whether that's a good trade off for being able to carry one device around or not, I haven't decided. Also, as I use my Ipod daily. The idea of plugging and unplugging the earphones a lot seems might prematurely wear out the jack or be a nusence anyway.


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## editor (Aug 13, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> ^^^ unprompted, btw. I've been careful not to mention iPhones, as I'm aware that my horror at / interpretation of his experience with Georgie might be skewed by my expectations of technology. And familiarity with phones. And lack of blindness.


Android is pretty much universally recognised as having the fastest and most accurate voice recognition - and Jelly Bean further improves on it - but if course it will also be down to the user experience for a blind person.

The fact that Google are responding to mails is encouraging.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 13, 2012)

editor said:


> Android is pretty much universally recognised as having the fastest and most accurate voice recognition - and Jelly Bean further improves on it - but if course it will also be down to the user experience for a blind person.


That's ace, it's fuck all use if it won't read it back, though 

And it's only the _actual _writing of texts that is by voice command, IMU. In order to get there, you've still got to navigate touch screens.


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## editor (Aug 13, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> That's ace, it's fuck all use if it won't read it back, though
> 
> And it's only the _actual _writing of texts that is by voice command, IMU. In order to get there, you've still got to navigate touch screens.


Well, of course: that's why I said it's down to the overall user experience - that's something Apple is usually strongest at, but things are very different when it comes to designing for blind users. The fact that Google are getting involved with your feedback sounds a good start, no?

Btw, Siri is pretty much unusable for my nephews as it can't understand their Welsh accents at all!


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## mrs quoad (Aug 13, 2012)

editor said:


> The fact that Google are getting involved with your feedback sounds a good start, no?


tbf, google aren't; the app's devs are.

Given my dad's one of only ten people to've bought a handset in its launch week, I suspect they're not exactly buried under a deluge of feedback atm. But, yeah, I think that is one of the things that appeals to him.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2012)

My husband just has a really old phone with a broken screen and tells people not to send him texts.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> My husband just has a really old phone with a broken screen and tells people not to send him texts.


I _still _haven't received a text from my dad. Even a nonsense one.

I think he's now been trying since last Tuesday


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2012)

Has he been blind for a long time or is it more recent? It makes a big difference IME.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Has he been blind for a long time or is it more recent? It makes a big difference IME.


He's been can't-tell-if-the-lights-are-on blind since about 1997. Maybe a year or two later.

Which was a slow development from a detached retina c.1960, rapidly followed by half-treated glaucoma, retinitis pigmentosa, untreated cataracts, and - tbh - pretty much anything else that can go wrong with a remaining eye.

He went blind in time to benefit from quite a bit of decent assistive technology; and was a one-man-business academic publisher until he retired a year or two ago. So is - to say the least - acquainted with assistive technology.

He's also a smartarse  Hence the comment about enjoying being able to give feedback, etc.


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## fen_boy (Aug 14, 2012)

I know he's already bought Georgie, but I think in Android Jellybean this is handled a lot more like it is in iOS with proper text to speech and whatnot. You can pick up a Galaxy Nexus for £300 at the moment. I've got one, if you wanted to look at it you could. I'm based in Cambridge(ish).


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## mrs quoad (Aug 26, 2012)

I've spent an hour tonight with my parents, teaching my mum to use her new iPhone & seeing if I could help my dad with his difficulties with Georgie. 

He's irritated to the point of abstraction with it ATM. Still can't send texts, keeps on deleting all his contacts, and cant answer texts. It drains his credit ludicrously with mobile net on (£20 in one afternoon) but won't do weather / navigation etc without it. Tbf, he's wanking around a bit, but it's opening screens unpredictably and IMO should be a hack of a lot more forgiving / less arsey if it's designed from the ground up for blind people. Without extensive sighted help, he wouldn't've gotten anywhere. 

Daft bastard spent £25 on podcasts / media, and another £25 on books (£25 on weather, too, I think) and ATM, that means In Touch only, most recent ep being 1st July; 3 local papers; and 5 already-free-access audiobooks. 

Having spent an hour with him on Georgie and 5 mins exploring Siri with my mum, she sent him a text saying "IM SENDING THIS USING NO BOTTOMS" (sic). He then asked for a go, and in no time flat had decided that Georgie was a £400 wasted experiment. Confident he'll be looking for an iPhone come the next apple announcement.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 27, 2012)

Btw, my mum is now *hooked* on Angry Birds


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

This may be of interest:


> A new device called Ray aims to make the smartphone space friendlier to the sight-challenged by integrating standard smartphone capabilities with the functions of specialty devices that many blind consumers now pair with basic mobile phones to create a full smartphone experience.
> 
> Rather than having to rely on audio-book readers, navigation tools, raised Braille labels, special bar-code scanners, and large-buttoned and voice-enabled MP3 players, therefore, they can turn to just one device.
> The multifunction Ray combines off-the-shelf Android smartphone hardware powered by Qualcomm's Snapdragon processor with a custom user interface designed for eye-free operation. The UI, developed in Israel, employs a touch screen, haptics, sensors, text-to-speech, and audio feedback to support phone calls, sending and receiving e-mails and text messages, social networking, remote device management, and more.
> ...


http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57538679-1/ray-turns-android-phone-into-device-for-the-blind/


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Sounds interesting, but at a first read I'm not entirely clear what it's offering that's (e.g.) different from Georgie - with the exception of the starting point for any gesture being wherever your finger lands on the screen. Which does sound eminently sensible. 

The rest does sound interesting - but could largely be describing Georgie. So, IMO, would be very very very dependent on the quality of implementation. 

I've continued to text my dad 2 or 3 times per week. He still often doesn't know he's received texts, struggles to open them, and can't reply. (He hasn't sent a single text. Even if he could write one, afawct there's no way of getting Georgie to read back what he's written / dictated, making it beyond fucking useless). And I believe his phone book now only contains 3 or 4 numbers, bc it's un-navigable / prone to crashing with anything more. 

(And Georgie's camera / text and colour identification functions tend to identify everything as "grey" or "black," though the camera is working and isn't covered). 

So, yeah, interesting. But very reliant on the quality of implementation.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Their blind critic, cited at the end of that piece, also starts out a separate critique of apps for blind people (linked in the article you've quoted) thus: 

Is there an app for you?

"If you are among the minority of blind and visually impaired users of Apple's products, you've probably know that the answer is an unequivocal yes. Apple is the first company ever to make their computers and smartphones accessible out of the box to someone who is blind, and for this reason, there is a tangible buzz about accessible third-party apps and app development on sites like AppleVis and on e-mail listserves."

And in the article you've quoted, she states her wariness (though curiosity) wrt third-party apps for blind people. Which certainly rings true of Georgie, Ime - the lack of integration / attempts to integrate were two of the main factors rendering it dysfunctional.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's the press release for the phone and there's a video here - http://mashable.com/2012/10/24/android-phone-visually-impaired/



​ 


> _*Qualcomm and Project RAY Announce the Development of an Eye-Free Mobile Device to Facilitate Daily Life for Blind and Visually Impaired People*_
> _-- Based on an off-the-Shelf Smartphone and Featuring a Unique User Interface, the Project RAY Device Enhances Quality of Life and Promotes Independence --_
> _TEL AVIV, Israel and SAN DIEGO, Oct. 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Qualcomm Incorporated (NASDAQ: QCOM), through its Wireless Reach™ initiative, and Project RAY Ltd., which designs accessibility tools for blind and visually impaired people, today announced that they have developed the RAY mobile device, an always-on, easy-to-use, multi-function, smartphone that is synchronized with Israel's Central Library for the Blind, Visually Impaired and Handicapped audio books content. This collaboration sets a new standard in accessibility tools and ease of use for visually impaired people._
> 
> ...


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting that the video included in ^^^ that article again includes a blind tech critic, who again says that he uses an iPhone - both with its standard accessibility interface, and using voice input / commands.

This sounds like it's got one heck of a lot more backing than Georgie, though. And (e.g.) far better access to audio resources (I think Georgie still offers 5 audio books, for an up-front outlay of £25 for the feature.) It'll be interesting to see where it goes wrt third party integration / quality / price point.

e2a: I forwarded these links to my dad, fwiw. Though I'm not expecting him to make too many new ventures in the immediate, he does tend to be curious.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Interesting that the video included in ^^^ that article again includes a blind tech critic, who again says that he uses an iPhone - both with its standard accessibility interface, and using voice input / commands.


Yes. So you keep saying. I think everyone knows what it does now.

But this is about an interesting a new project.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes. So you keep saying. I think everyone knows what it does now.


I keep saying that about the article you linked to?

Afaik, I've posted that once about the article you've just linked to, and once about the previous article you linked to. Which both featured different blind tech bloggers / commentators making the same point. 

That point is particularly relevant, IMO, all the more so given its wrt a tried and tested piece of kit. And even more so, again IMO, because of the tremendous price and seemingly poor functionality of Georgie. 



editor said:


> But this is about an interesting a new project.


I'm aware that's what you were posting about. Hence all the other bits in my post - the ones you forgot to quote.

Any details on pricing, btw? Bc that could be a very interesting / valuable difference.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 28, 2012)

Some months later...

After voicing several problems / concerns about Georgie to the devs, they sent round 2 or 3 people to his house to install the latest update and / or see if they could fix any ongoing problems.

That seemed to resolve some of his issues.

But last week, my sister received a call on her mobile from someone saying 'hello, are you a blind person who owns a Samsung Galaxy running Georgie?'

And, erm, somehow it seems that Georgie has been forwarding the contacts in my dad's address book to, erm... seemingly, other people running Georgie. He's got no idea who this bloke is. Though they apparently had a very agreeable chat.

He's had a couple of chats with the devs again. Again, very polite, and trying to be very responsive, but he says he's now explained what happened three times and is still being asked to repeat it. They're not quite sure what's going on (seemingly) and aren't explaining any possibilities to him very well.

So - having received several calls / messages from him over the last coupla weeks about how to run various Siri (erk) / iPhone accessibility functions, and having - clearly - played around with my mum's a bit more, he's off to get an iPhone in the next couple of days.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 28, 2012)

My husband's old phone finally died. He bought one of these from the RNIB. It's not bright orange though, thank God.

http://www.rnib.org.uk/shop/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=HM43OR01


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 28, 2012)

It's good actually. For the first time he can send and receive texts. The voice is infuriating, but I hate all synthetic speech.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 28, 2012)

Just forwarded it, then saw the price tag. Which is cheap (compared to Smart phones) but which I doubt he'll be up for risking 

My guess would be that - having blown about £500 all-in on Georgie / the Galaxy - he's *probably* now going to be inclined towards something that he knows works for him (and which is, to some extent, voice activated). Even if it's more expensive up-front, he knows it's not money wasted. IYSWIM.

Looks like an outstanding piece of kit, though.


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## elbows (Nov 28, 2012)

Can I just say how upsetting I found this thread, the price and quality of Georgie makes me angry. I know its a relatively small market and the product is kind of new, and people with disabilities are probably used to being ripped off, but I still dont find that an adequate excuse or in any way acceptable. Obviously I've not tried the app but it sounds like the development was botched. A better approach would have been to sell it at a lower price at least to early adopters, but if your dads experience was typical then it sounds like its not worth it anyway, avoid like the plague and rely on people who know what they are doing to design and implement such stuff instead.

In theory androids customisability should make it a decent platform on which people could build such features, ie ones not already covered by googles own voice & accessibility stuff, but I dont blame your dad for not wanting to try anything else along those lines.

Will be very interested to hear how he gets on with the iphone. I dont know anyone who is blind myself but for some reason its a subject that interests me. I might try using the ipad & nexus 7 with my eyes closed and accessibility features on, although obviously this wont be a fair test since I have many memories of seeing UI's on the screen on these devices.

Is he interested in the camera->OCR->voice type stuff? have you looked for any iOS apps that can do that sort of thing?


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 28, 2012)

elbows said:


> I might try using the ipad & nexus 7 with my eyes closed and accessibility features on, although obviously this wont be a fair test since I have many memories of seeing UI's on the screen on these devices.


Well, it won't be a fair test of anything other that being temporarily unable to see for a very short time. Which is nothing like being visually impaired to any degree.


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## elbows (Nov 29, 2012)

I know that, but it would still give me a very vague sense of how the accessibility stuff on various mobile platforms is supposed to work. I realise that it may have been grossly insensitive and stupid of me to even say what I said, and for that I am sorry. But given that I am interested in the subject and dont have many other options, I thought it was at least a few percent better than rambling on about the subject without having tried the OS-level functionality in any way at all. I didnt mean to suggest that it would be a proper emulation of someone with no sight.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2012)

Close your eyes before you even turn on the phone or accessibility features. For example, my husband can use i-Player on his laptop but only if I line it all up for him first. He's got speech software (not the shite that comes built in, but Jaws, which is the most widely used software for visually impaired people). Often software developments shut out visual impairment, despite the fact that blind people were a group of early adopters of computers. In fact my husband has supported a family through to adulthood on computer programming (the music, great though it is would barely support an anorexic mouse) but he's struggling as everything gets more and more inaccessible. 

Sorry I came across as so snippy earlier, there was a lot going on in the room as I typed.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2012)

elbows said:


> Can I just say how upsetting I found this thread, the price and quality of Georgie makes me angry. I know its a relatively small market and the product is kind of new, and people with disabilities are probably used to being ripped off, but I still dont find that an adequate excuse or in any way acceptable. Obviously I've not tried the app but it sounds like the development was botched. A better approach would have been to sell it at a lower price at least to early adopters, but if your dads experience was typical then it sounds like its not worth it anyway, avoid like the plague and rely on people who know what they are doing to design and implement such stuff instead.


 
I think the original developers are a blind computer programming couple unless I'm thinking of something else. I don't know whether it's the case, but on the computer, the biggest problem the Jaws software has is other programs suddenly becoming incompatible and causing software confliicts.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 29, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think the original developers are a blind computer programming couple unless I'm thinking of something else. I don't know whether it's the case, but on the computer, the biggest problem the Jaws software has is other programs suddenly becoming incompatible and causing software confliicts.


Georgie?

I think it's a blind bloke, his [e2a: partially] sighted wife, and two (IIRC) devs. I'll honestly believe that their intentions were solid, but the planning and implementation has gone a bit fuck-arsed. And I do find it kinda hard to critique their intentions, if they're willing to send two people to Surrey to install the latest version update.

That said, even in my most charitable of temperaments, I do find things like this a bit inexcusable:



mrs quoad said:


> Text recognition from the camera. But that's an extra £25 (in addition to the £150 cost of the app). As part of the 'communications' DLC / package.
> 
> Newspapers read out loud. That's an extra £25, too, as part of the 'lifestyles' package.


IMU my dad's spent in the region of £100-£150 on the DLC 'packs.'

The 'read-out-loud newspapers' DLC consists of *three* titles, and the only one he's been able to read / access is the Coventry Telegraph. Which isn't being updated.

Podcasts... I *think* that's £25 (don't quote me on that). IIRC, it's In Touch. Last updated some time around March-June, last I heard (in October).

Books (may be £25, may be in with newspapers) - there are 3-6 of them, currently (IMU) non-expandable.

And text / colour recognition: everything is read or interpreted as 'grey' 

OK, the basic package... I get how that could be released at £150 with the best of intentions. Some of the DLC / add-ons are properly *shocking*, though. As in, full on, 'wtf'?

I'll still credit that the couple at the centre of all this have the best of intentions. And perhaps the devs too. But something - IMO - has gone very very wrong somewhere, in terms of ethics / pricing / functionality.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 29, 2012)

Addendum: looking at Google Play, looks like it's now being offered on a 14 day fully-functional free trial.

e2a: also looks like they've synthesised their add-ons into three packs (lifestyle, travel, and communication), _presumably _still at £25 each.

I'm pretty darned sure that those were initially split into 6x£25 packs.

So... does look like things are improving. And the free trial is hard to fault... (Though tricky if someone buys an Android phone specifically for Georgie )

e2a2: ah. Reviewers state that the 'free' demo requires phone payment, and invites unsolicited texts.


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## mrs quoad (Jan 26, 2013)

Some kind thieves have just broken into my parents' house, and alleviated them of the phone with Georgie on it.

My dad had tergiversed on his momentary resolve to get an iPhone, and was holding out for the next major service pack / update (which is apparently due in Feb / March) before giving up the Georgie ghost entirely.

But now he'll be getting a full insurance payout (IMU) and, somehow, I can't see that going back into another Galaxy Y with pre-loaded Georgie! (tbf, I can't see a Galaxy Y going for £150 up front atm, either!)

e2a: oh, nope. The Galaxy Y is still priced at £150 if you're looking to get Georgie pre-installed.


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## xenon (Jan 26, 2013)

Burglary shit.  Still maybe he'll be able to get an iphone 5 out of it. 

I still haven't got an Iphone for boring reasons to do with headphones, the unplugging and plugging in there of, quicker to txet on physical T9 keypad for me, etc. If I didn't have an Ipod Touch already, i'd get an Iphone though.



Mrs Magpie said:


> Close your eyes before you even turn on the phone or accessibility features. For example, my husband can use i-Player on his laptop but only if I line it all up for him first. He's got speech software (not the shite that comes built in, but Jaws, which is the most widely used software for visually impaired people). Often software developments shut out visual impairment, despite the fact that blind people were a group of early adopters of computers. In fact my husband has supported a family through to adulthood on computer programming (the music, great though it is would barely support an anorexic mouse) but he's struggling as everything gets more and more inaccessible.
> 
> Sorry I came across as so snippy earlier, there was a lot going on in the room as I typed.



Yep I recognise that. Things that used to work, get upgraded and break.

The latest version of JAWS is pretty good TBF. Handy features for blocking out certain elements on webpages. But as you know, it's an expensive bit of software. Circa 600 quid, if you're buying a bran new copy. It's a relatively small market for accessable software / hardware I suppose. 
BTW There's a free screenreader / magnification software called NVDA. Not as good as JAWS but very impressive nonetheless. Runs off a USB stick. So as a blind / VI user, you can almost just use anyone's machine, if they let you plug it in. (And you know what letter's been asigned to the USB drive.)


/derail


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## xenon (Jan 26, 2013)

elbows said:


> I know that, but it would still give me a very vague sense of how the accessibility stuff on various mobile platforms is supposed to work. I realise that it may have been grossly insensitive and stupid of me to even say what I said, and for that I am sorry. But given that I am interested in the subject and dont have many other options, I thought it was at least a few percent better than rambling on about the subject without having tried the OS-level functionality in any way at all. I didnt mean to suggest that it would be a proper emulation of someone with no sight.



You probably tried it by now. I still stand by my original impression of using the Ipod Touch with Voiceover. In short, it's still one of the best things I've ever bought. Using Iplayer, reading epubs etc. repeating myself but Apple for all the critizcisms that can be levelled against them generally, just got this one right. No special version required. no add on software. Switch accessabilty features on and that's it.

The third party software though is another story. I.e. You can't demo apps. It's a gambel as to whether they work and I have wasted money on a couple.


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## mrs quoad (Jan 26, 2013)

Fwiw, I think my dad settled on Hal as a screen reader. Is that different from Jaws?! I have a feeling that he switched over a year or five ago, but can't for the life of me remember why / when.


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## xenon (Jan 26, 2013)

HAL, yeah have used that in the past. Supernova uses HAL and has magnification too. They're made by Dolphin JAWS = Job Access With Speech. A screenreader on Linux is called Orca...

Those wacky programmers and their puns...


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## mrs quoad (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah. I think he's got supernova. I think. Magnification probably wouldn't be much use to him, though!


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 31, 2013)

He bought an Alto from RNIB. It's shit. It deleted all his texts and now he can't get texts at all which was the whole point of buying it. It reads out numbers so fast you have to do it several times to catch them (and it's too fast for my husband who has the Jaws reader on his computer rattling stuff off at the speed of light). he's tried it out to give it a decent go but he's going to take it back and get his money refunded.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 31, 2013)

Oh, and charging it all night only leaves the battery 20% charged.


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He bought an Alto from RNIB. It's shit. It deleted all his texts and now he can't get texts at all which was the whole point of buying it. It reads out numbers so fast you have to do it several times to catch them (and it's too fast for my husband who has the Jaws reader on his computer rattling stuff off at the speed of light). he's tried it out to give it a decent go but he's going to take it back and get his money refunded.




That's pretty disappointing. I presume he's not on a contract? I started getting nagging calls from Vodafone about upgrading. So I went for the Iphone 5. Considered a Galaxy S4 as the accessability in Android is supposedly much improved. After watching a couple of vids on Youtube with someone navigating the web with it though, it had a couple handy things missing that would have just annoyed me. E.g. being able to skip to headings with a flick down. Very useful for quickly jumping to different articles on a news site etc. 
I don't know if it's just the local Vodafone store policy but, ahem. I didn't have to pay anything at all for the Iphone 5, due to the accessability. I was expecting to fork out something but computer said no. Which was nice.


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## Dan U (Apr 1, 2013)

So we downloaded an app called braille touch on the iPhone for my step dad last night. It replicates the braille 6 key typer* blind people use. It works, but the issue is that he has no way of knowing where is fingers are on the screen so i typed an alphabet fine under instructions, but he couldn't. 

It could work if you had a screen cover with bobbles on over the correct part of the screen but it would need to be sensitive enough to recognises finger swishes as that is how space @ etc. are carried out. 

Interesting though.

*which has a name but i forget it right now and don't have time to Google from my phone.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 1, 2013)

xenon said:


> That's pretty disappointing. I presume he's not on a contract?


He does pay as you go. He got this Alto (alto schmalto) phone which I think is really expensive (I think it was about £160) but he doesn't want to buy a smartphone and then pay £150 on top of that for speech software. That's the best part of five or six hundred quid. Fuck that. He just wants to make and receive phone calls and preferably get texts. I have been reliably informed I could walk into a phone shop and get a basic pay as you go for under £50. The same isn't available to him. If he's going to spend £500 to £600 quid it would be on maybe some pedals or a really fancy-schmancy flight case for an amp, not for a phone.


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He does pay as you go. He got this Alto (alto schmalto) phone which I think is really expensive (I think it was about £160) but he doesn't want to buy a smartphone and then pay £150 on top of that for speech software. That's the best part of five or six hundred quid. Fuck that. He just wants to make and receive phone calls and preferably get texts. I have been reliably informed I could walk into a phone shop and get a basic pay as you go for under £50. The same isn't available to him. If he's going to spend £500 to £600 quid it would be on maybe some pedals or a really fancy-schmancy flight case for an amp, not for a phone.



I'm not affiliated with them other than having a monthly contract but it might be worth speaking to Vodafone. I've always found them pretty good, once they know the issues about getting accessable handsests. The ones like Nokias that ran the Talks software are going away now. So it's kinda reasonable to argue to get an Iphone or a new Android (stay away from HTC though. I forget exactly why. I think they've hobbled something re the built in Android speech software.) It would probably mean having to go on a different tarif but he could get the phone free.


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2013)

Dan U said:


> So we downloaded an app called braille touch on the iPhone for my step dad last night. It replicates the braille 6 key typer* blind people use. It works, but the issue is that he has no way of knowing where is fingers are on the screen so i typed an alphabet fine under instructions, but he couldn't.
> 
> It could work if you had a screen cover with bobbles on over the correct part of the screen but it would need to be sensitive enough to recognises finger swishes as that is how space @ etc. are carried out.
> 
> ...



This is the problem with a lot of these accessability apps. They don't seem to have been designed with blind people in the development stage. A braile keyboard on a touch screen sounds a frankly rediculous idea precisely because of the issue you identify.

I installed a fre colour detecter on my Iphone. It's meant more for peple with colour blindness. It works but the trouble is, it has such a wide dictionary of colours. WTF is Wenge. Bister? sinarious?


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 1, 2013)

The idea of braille is a bit weird. Braille is really slow to read compared to speech (although speech software drives me mad...tinny little voice prattling away) and although some braillists can read fast, my husband isn't one of them although he does use braille, and has done for over 40 years.


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2013)

Yeah, takes up so much dam room too. A braile encyclopedia is a horror to behold.  I didn't learn it til I was about 17, so am very slow. Only use it for labels on boxes and stuff these days.

I do most of my reading / listening, with the screenreader on my phone now. It's faster than audiobooks but I quite like the nutrality of the voice. Allbeit I've got it on the Australian accent because that Daniel one, AKA bloke from Weekest Link's internation does my head in.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 1, 2013)

xenon said:


> Yeah, takes up so much dam room too. A braile encyclopedia is a horror to behold.


The brailled phone bill is bad enough!


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## elbows (Apr 1, 2013)

xenon said:


> You probably tried it by now. I still stand by my original impression of using the Ipod Touch with Voiceover. In short, it's still one of the best things I've ever bought. Using Iplayer, reading epubs etc. repeating myself but Apple for all the critizcisms that can be levelled against them generally, just got this one right. No special version required. no add on software. Switch accessabilty features on and that's it.


 
Yes I gave both ipad and android tablet ones a try, but it was now so long ago that I've forgotten the detail of my conclusions, and I couldnt give them a 'proper' test anyway. I seem to remember being appalled by how difficult the android stuff was to get switched on if you didnt have the benefit of sight. And I wasnt impressed by the voice on the android one either. 

I remain depressed by the tales of cost & limitations of many devices. Sadly not surprised to hear of many third party apps not considering accessibility issues either. Technology has so much potential that remains mostly untapped.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 1, 2013)

elbows said:


> Technology has so much potential that remains mostly untapped.


It was tapped in a big way when computers began. Loads of blind people embraced the new technology. Then Windows can along and it's been harder and harder with each new development.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 1, 2013)

elbows said:


> Sadly not surprised to hear of many third party apps not considering accessibility issues either.


That's basically true of_* everything*_, from microwaves, washing machines etc etc.


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## Dan U (Apr 1, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> That's basically true of_* everything*_, from microwaves, washing machines etc etc.



Kitchen appliances covered in little acrylic dots ftw


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