# I joined the Labour Party...



## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Class politics by any means necessary has always been the aim. So after joining the Labour Party (LP) as a supporter to vote for Jeremy Corbyn I then joined as a full member when he won the leadership election. 

I got my membership card today and intend to write on this thread about my experience of joining a reformist political party. 

My local MP could not be more Blairite. 

The council is solid LP. They seem to do a reasonably good job. I have met a number of them in my professional experience. 

I don't know yet anything of how the LP is organised. Do they just have ward meetings or have a bigger one as well for the whole CLP?

What could they throw me out for? Is swearing not allowed for instance? Turning up pissed to meetings? Shouting TRAITOR at the MP?

How might they try to trip me up? Negate my views and contribution? 

Top tips surely welcome.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2015)

Why would you want to swear?


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## SpineyNorman (Oct 5, 2015)

I would assume that's because there will likely be quite a lot of cunts in the meetings he has to attend.


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## discokermit (Oct 5, 2015)

i might join. my brother has.


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 5, 2015)

Yes they do have whole constituency meetings of the CLP. I can't see why they would want to trip you up. You are a member and their view will be "the more the merrier". If they don't like your views they will argue with you. Swearing is not expected as in any group in polite society. Be ready to be disappointed in their politics unless there is a big influx of Corbinites.


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## SpineyNorman (Oct 5, 2015)

I'm not joining - I don't really want to for political reasons anyway but aside from that everyone in the LP round here fucking hates me - and I don't blame them tbh


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

My pack arrived to day too. I like the welcome letter 



> We are powered by the energy of those new to our party and guided by the experience of those who have chosen to return.



Has the membership card mentioned the word 'socialism' in recent years, does anyone know? The one I have does.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Yes they do have whole constituency meetings of the CLP. I can't see why they would want to trip you up. You are a member and their view will be "the more the merrier". If they don't like you views they will argue with you. Swearing is not expected as in any group in polite society. Be ready to be disappointed in their politics unless there is a big influx of Corbinites.



The ones I have met professionally do not impress me with their politics. They are well meaning and it's often a big part of their lives (the LP), but sticking up for working class people sems lower on the agenda than fly tipping.


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> My pack arrived to day too. I like the welcome letter
> 
> 
> 
> Has the membership card mentioned the word 'socialism' in recent years, does anyone know? The one I have does.


The last one I had - some years ago had the modern version of Clause IV on it which included a long-winded reference to "endogenous growth". It didn't mention socialism I don't think, unless my memory fails me.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

fly tipping is their bread & butter, it's dealing with stuff like that which keeps them elected. There's easy victories to be had through fly tipping and dogshit. less so through sticking up for working class people.


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The ones I have met professionally do not impress me with their politics. They are well meaning and it's often a big part of their lives (the LP), but sticking up for working class people sems lower on the agenda than fly tipping.


This because their focus is on getting the local councillors re-elected. The party is focussed at council level rather than nation issues which only provide elections once every 5 years.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 5, 2015)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The last one I had - some years ago had the modern version of Clause IV on it which included a long-winded reference to "endogenous growth". It didn't mention socialism I don't think, unless my memory fails me.



Shall Gordon Brown's damned erogenous growth forever haunt our memories?


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Well the local organiser just returned my call.


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 5, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Shall Gordon Brown's damned erogenous growth forever haunt our memories?


That would be worse.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The last one I had - some years ago had the modern version of Clause IV on it which included a long-winded reference to "endogenous growth". It didn't mention socialism I don't think, unless my memory fails me.


Ah, ok. My card has the current (1995) Clause 4.1 on the back:



> 1 The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many not the few; where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe and where we live together freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.



e2a I lost a decade!


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## 1%er (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The ones I have met professionally do not impress me with their politics. They are well meaning and it's often a big part of their lives (the LP), but sticking up for working class people sems lower on the agenda than fly tipping.


Is anyone running a book on how many meeting you'll go to before you say fuck this and throw it all in?


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Do you think we can change it to read "kill the rich"?


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## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The ones I have met professionally do not impress me with their politics. They are well meaning and it's often a big part of their lives (the LP), but sticking up for working class people sems lower on the agenda than fly tipping.


Perhaps you could get them to do both?


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

1%er said:


> Is anyone running a book on how many meeting you'll go to before you say fuck this and throw it all in?


I would say it will be odds on. I have been giving thought to the right drug combo to get through meetings. Pity barbiturates like Mandrax are no longer available.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Perhaps you could get them to do both?


Its something to aim for for sure.


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## tony.c (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Do you think we can change it to read "kill the rich"?


Move a resolution through your CLP for next year's conference.


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## 1%er (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I would say it will be odds on. I have been giving thought to the right drug combo to get through meetings. Pity barbiturates like Mandrax are no longer available.


I'll have a tenner on 1 to 3 meetings depending on your drug intake


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## FOSS (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Well the local organiser just returned my call.



Who and where if you don't mind me asking? I could do with finding one of them...


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

Who did the tags, fuckers?


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

FOSS said:


> Who and where if you don't mind me asking? I could do with finding one of them...


Your one will be local to you


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## FOSS (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> Your one will be local to you



I think they're hiding. I'm in Dulwich and West Norwood any idea how to find them?


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## Coolfonz (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I would say it will be odds on. I have been giving thought to the right drug combo to get through meetings. Pity barbiturates like Mandrax are no longer available.


MDMA is the one. `Yeah amaaazing meeting great, especially the fly tipping, man`


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## tony.c (Oct 5, 2015)

I've rejoined. My local CLP and MP aren't too bad by Labour standards.

The last time I was threatened with expulsion was after the 1966 General election. Some of my mates at school and me had joined the Labour Party. We did a lot of leafleting and protected George Brown at street/estate meetings from the Young Conservatives. But we sang the Red Flag and had a little scuffle with the YCs at the election count.

The MP, a Labour Government Minister, didn't like that, and a couple of weeks later we got letters summoning us to LP HQ for questioning about whether we belonged to another party. I later realised that they might have thought we were in the SLL/Young Socialists or Militant, but we were 15 and had never heard of them at the time.

Anyway we just tore up our cards in disgust.


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## discokermit (Oct 5, 2015)

i'm liking the tags, ''hipster entryism''. teehee!


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## fractionMan (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Do you think we can change it to read "kill the rich"?


baby steps


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## stethoscope (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Do you think we can change it to read "kill the rich"?



Think transitional - maim them initially.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

FOSS said:


> I think they're hiding. I'm in Dulwich and West Norwood any idea how to find them?


No idea, I'm afraid. Try the website?


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## Sue (Oct 5, 2015)

Why? Don't tell me, you're going to change it from within..? And to think everyone (quite rightly) took the piss when articul8 kept coming out with that bollocks.


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## JHE (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> Ah, ok. My card has the current (2005) Clause 4.1 on the back:


1995


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

JHE said:


> 1995


That's the one!


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Sue said:


> Why? Don't tell me, you're going to change it from within..? And to think everyone (quite rightly) took the piss when articul8 kept coming out with that bollocks.


I joined as I think Corbyn is a decent bloke who is a committed socialist. I want to support him to achieve some positive change. A solid programme of council house building, no tuition fees for our kids, this would in itself be enough for me to make this tangent worth it. 

I also want to make the life of our local MP a bit harder, deselect her. Replace her with er a socialist. 

I'm too old to fight the police any more. Frankly, we have never had any wins.  

I want a few wins before I drop dead.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

Sue said:


> Why? Don't tell me, you're going to change it from within..? And to think everyone (quite rightly) took the piss when articul8 kept coming out with that bollocks.


Depends on what you mean by from within. Trying to get anything done within the LP as it has been clearly isn't going anywhere. But I really do want to know what happens when a fuck load of people who don't want Blairite bollocks join en mass.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 5, 2015)

Snidey tags. If you feel that strongly, say it publicly or stfu.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I want a few wins before I drop dead.


That's the spirit, my love   xxx


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 5, 2015)

dunno really.

many labour members / activists (as the recent result has shown) are to the left of the parliamentary party - although in some areas, the blairites now outnumber the more 'traditional' labour types.

it's a bit unclear just what power JC is going to give to local parties - he's said there won't be mass re-selection votes.  May be more chance of influencing future candidates in a seat that doesn't currently have a labour MP.

although just how blairite MPs will react if the 'sod off' message from their CLP is loud enough remains to be seen.

not sure that many CLPs are big enough to have meetings at ward level any more.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Snidey tags. If you feel that strongly, say it publicly or stfu.


I think most of them are taking the piss tbh.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> I think most of them are taking the piss tbh.



Yeah, I wasn't quite sure if it was "banter" or something, but some of them do seem a bit harsh.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

christ, it isn't banter. we aren't cunts.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Snidey tags. If you feel that strongly, say it publicly or stfu.


I put most of them in myself.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)




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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> I think most of them are taking the piss tbh.


I reckon TC done most of them. His sense of humour.

edit: timing!


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I joined as I think Corbyn is a decent bloke who is a committed socialist. I want to support him to achieve some positive change. A solid programme of council house building, no tuition fees for our kids, this would in itself be enough for me to make this tangent worth it.
> 
> I also want to make the life of our local MP a bit harder, deselect her. Replace her with er a socialist.
> 
> ...



Take up bowls mate, the LP will not lead to self-actualisation just misery and humiliation. To be honest I went to pay my £3 but wasn't registered to vote so it didn't count. I was motivated by fucking off the Blairites rather than belief in our bearded messiah to affect change.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I put most of them in myself.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

tbh it looks like there's still plenty of opportunity to fuck the blairites off even more now, if that's the limits of your ambition.


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## SpineyNorman (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I put most of them in myself.


LOL


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> christ, it isn't banter. we aren't cunts.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> tbh it looks like there's still plenty of opportunity to fuck the blairites off even more now, if that's the limits of your ambition.


They had Blair himself down at my CLP.. It would be great to cunt him off in the style I have developed so well over the years. 

I don't expect my comrades to forgive me over this, maybe understand but that's it. No twelve pints down the book fair this year.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

you'll be a pariah, forced to stand at the bar by yourself with half a mild.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> tbh it looks like there's still plenty of opportunity to fuck the blairites off even more now, if that's the limits of your ambition.


There's no limit.

(No no etc)


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> They had Blair himself down at my CLP.. It would be great to cunt him off in the style I have developed so well over the years.
> 
> I don't expect my comrades to forgive me over this, maybe understand but that's it. No twelve pints down the book fair this year.


I'm not going to fall out with you over it. I think it's a mistake and one way to  guarantee personal  defeats  - if you start giving it labour propaganda though 

Plenty comrades went this way in the early 80s.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

It is possible for a local party to force reselection btw, it's just not _that _easy. You need a lot of wards onside.


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## FOSS (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> No idea, I'm afraid. Try the website?


 
Tried it.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not going to fall out with you over it. I think it's a mistake and one way to  guarantee personal  defeats  - if you start giving it labour propaganda though
> 
> Plenty comrades went this way in the early 80s.


To be fair my comrades of decades are keeping their comments to themselves on the whole. I expected more abuse but have not got it. I got involved with Class War because it enabled me to express my class hatred well. 
Never too much into anarchist theory. Strong trade union background. Labour movement parents. Not too much of a jump. Well maybe it is. Can't see me coming out with LP propaganda any time soon. 

I just want to support Jeremy Corbyn and miserise the lives of the right wing cunts who successfully infested the LP for decades. 

I won't delude myself. If it all goes tits up then we can examine it here honestly and openly.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Plenty comrades went this way in the early 80s.


Trying not to do this via the medium of song lyric... Did they stay or... what happened to them?


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> Trying not to do this via the medium of song lyric... Did they stay or... what happened to them?


Most went onto the anarchist federation and class war after realising they were wasting their time 

Some excellent posters on here may take the time to tell why they did after decades of anarchist activity and what they think about it now. Loads on here...speak up!


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## discokermit (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not going to fall out with you over it. I think it's a mistake and one way to  guarantee personal  defeats  - if you start giving it labour propaganda though
> 
> Plenty comrades went this way in the early 80s.


times are different though. and so is the labour party.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Most went onto the anarchist federation and class war after realising they were wasting their time
> 
> Some excellent posters on here may take the time to tell why they did after decades of anarchist activity and what they think about it now. Loads on here...speak up!


Yep, that would be good to hear. This is an experiment and leaving is still very definitely an option. But I can't help it - I have been genuinely impressed with Jeremy Corbyn.


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## BlackArab (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> fly tipping is their bread & butter, it's dealing with stuff like that which keeps them elected. There's easy victories to be had through fly tipping and dogshit. less so through sticking up for working class people.



I wish it were true round my way, not even our two Green councillors appear too realise that fly-tipping, dog shit & tagging are environmental issues. I would vote for anyone who could sort these issues.


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

discokermit said:


> times are different though. and so is the labour party.


Times similar i reckon and if the labour party is now different it's _worse _in a way that makes working in it or any other sort of plans even harder.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Some fucker fly tipped about a ton of rubbish outside my back gate. Festering shit that is encroaching on my bike and is hideous. I will ring my new chum councillor in the morning!


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Times similar i reckon and if the labour party is now different it's _worse _in a way that makes working in it or any other sort of plans even harder.


Please elucidate mate?


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## BlackArab (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not going to fall out with you over it. I think it's a mistake and one way to  guarantee personal  defeats  - if you start giving it labour propaganda though
> 
> Plenty comrades went this way in the early 80s.



Forgive me too Brother! and I've signed up for Team Marvin so don't be surprised if I knock your door


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2015)

Fuck Belushi just liked this thread.


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Please elucidate mate?


There is now no oganised labour movement flexing its muscles, socialising the way w/c people relate to the state and politics and how we can organise ourselves - (and isn't that a lot of the stuff a lot of people rejected in the 80s and 90s?) . So any labour party business is missing that competent and is going to be pretty much be on a short-term lets have a laugh basis. The people who own the labour party have pretty much every organisational path under their control. People just can;'t walk in and taker over - it'seven harder now then the benn 81 stuff and the later 80s deselection battles.


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

BlackArab said:


> Forgive me too Brother! and I've signed up for Team Marvin so don't be surprised if I knock your door


If it's in the week you won't catch me, but geri is fuming at being a labour loyalist for years, during the bad years and yet was banned from voting (and it wasn't even for corbyn) while actual green party members weren't. So bring your ear mufflers, because the next labour person she sees is going to get it


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> There is now no oganised labour movement flexing its muscles, socialising the way w/c people relate to the state and politics and how we can organise ourselves - (and isn't that a lot of the stuff a lot of people rejected in the 80s and 90s?) . So any labour party business is missing that competent and is going to be pretty much be on a short-term lets have a laugh basis. The people who own the labour party have pretty much every organisational path under their control. People just can;'t walk in and taker over - it'seven harder now then the benn 81 stuff and the later 80s deselection battles.


I'm aware that this sounds hopelessly naive, so feel free to laugh or pity or despair, but if the leadership (JC) wants to change the structure and the new members want to change the structure, is there not scope for changing the structure? What stands in the way, practically?


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> I'm aware that this sounds hopelessly naive, so feel free to laugh or pity or despair, but if the leadership (JC) wants to change the structure and the new members want to change the structure, is there not scope for changing the structure? What stands in the way, practically?


Years of experience of bureaucratically blocking any changes, concentrated power in key central and regional areas.  Power to funnel any proposed changes though the forms they want -- dragging stuff out for years and watering it down at best. In the early 90s they underwent a serious interrnal re-organistion to pre-emptively stop any such challenges.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Years of experience of bureaucratically blocking any changes, concentrated power in key central and regional areas.  Power to funnel any proposed changes though the forms they want -- dragging stuff out for years and watering it down at best. In the early 90s they underwent a serious interrnal re-organistion to pre-emptively stop any such challenges.


But wasn't that only possible because it's what the PLP wanted?


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## lazythursday (Oct 5, 2015)

killer b said:


> It is possible for a local party to force reselection btw, it's just not _that _easy. You need a lot of wards onside.


But the boundary changes are going to mean there has to be a reselection process in an awful lot of constituencies. This website appears to show the proposed changes that were going to be made back in the last Parliament (blocked in the end by the Lib Dems). What happens now is likely to be reasonably similar. If you look at, say, Vauxhall and Streatham constituencies you will see they are completely utterly redrawn under the previous proposals and will clearly have to be recontested This gives a once in a generation chance for the left of Labour to shaft Blairite MPs and can happen whether Corbyn and the leadership want it to or not.


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> But wasn't that only possible because it's what the PLP wanted?


It was possible because of all sorts of things -the membershiop massively endorsing it being one of them. The PLP now are even less inclined to allow the centralistion of  power in their hands (and their local party catspaws) to be challenged. To me it's just a defeat waiting to happen, but one that will take so many peoples energy for a decade.


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## discokermit (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> There is now no oganised labour movement flexing its muscles, socialising the way w/c people relate to the state and politics and how we can organise ourselves


exactly. defeat after defeat and now nothing. fuck all. my rate is just over half what it was four years ago. we've been under a massive onslaught and absolutely fuck all we have done has worked. the revolutionary left is pretty fucked. at least this gives us a breathing space.


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## boohoo (Oct 5, 2015)

Have joined up recently because I don't feel I can sit on my bum and grumble and attend a few marches and that will make everything alright. I like a lot of  what Jeremy Corbyn has to say and I would like to see a change in how politics is done.

I have been to a branch and constituency meeting - they were both fairly dull. But in the Constituency meeting, there was a feeling that we should be moving away from someone standing at the front talking at those attending and a move towards having discussions about issues. 

What the meetings could have done with is the addition of all the new joiners making some noise and encouraging a change in how things are done. A gently gently approach is necessary - people don't like change but handled the right way, it is possible that people will be open to it (apart from the blairite MPs and councillors   ).


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2015)

lazythursday said:


> But the boundary changes are going to mean there has to be a reselection process in an awful lot of constituencies. This website appears to show the proposed changes that were going to be made back in the last Parliament (blocked in the end by the Lib Dems). What happens now is likely to be reasonably similar. If you look at, say, Vauxhall and Streatham constituencies you will see they are completely utterly redrawn under the previous proposals and will clearly have to be recontested This gives a once in a generation chance for the left of Labour to shaft Blairite MPs and can happen whether Corbyn and the leadership want it to or not.


Another once in a generation opp.


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## Mation (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> It was possible because of all sorts of things -the membershiop massively endorsing it being one of them. The PLP now are even less inclined to allow the centralistion of  power in their hands (and their local party catspaws) to be challenged. To me it's just a defeat waiting to happen, *but one that will take so many peoples energy for a decade*.


I do think this is different now, as the membership may well not endorse it. The emboldened bit is something I do worry about, but I don't think I'm the only one of the people I know who've recently joined that don't see this as the only thing to be involved in. This is part of what I can try/do. I do hear you, though.


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2015)

Mation said:


> I do think this is different now, as the membership may well not endorse it. The emboldened bit is something I do worry about, but I don't think I'm the only one of the people I know who've recently joined that don't see this as the only thing to be involved in. This is part of what I can try/do. I do hear you, though.



What i find upsetting is not old timers like yourself or TC but the young people that were starting to wake up and putting their energies into genuine grassroots groups with real potential, like Reclaim Hackney.

Now they've paid their cash and now shift responsibility onto the LP.


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## lazythursday (Oct 5, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Another once in a generation opp.


Let's be clear - I don't think it's a once in a generation chance to achieve utopia. Just to shaft Blairites. Which would be a start.

I've joined too, not been to any meetings yet. Yes it could be wasted energy. But to be frank I have spent the past decade disillusioned and barely politically active, so this isn't energy being diverted from elsewhere. I don't think the potential impact of left wing ideas being discussed in the mainstream media (even if simply derided and ridiculed) should be underestimated - that should benefit the whole left even if this little window of opportunity slams in our faces.


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## LiamO (Oct 5, 2015)

I have no idea whether you are doing the 'right' thing here TC - but if it's the right thing for you then I wish you all the very best with it.


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## YouSir (Oct 5, 2015)

All these Urbanites caving in and joining Labour, myself included, it's U75 entryism and it's too late to stop us all... Now, how about we change the forum's name to something catchy like Labour List?


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## Coolfonz (Oct 5, 2015)

And if it doesn't work out you can always rob people's coats at meetings and set fire to stuff.


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## killer b (Oct 5, 2015)

Kinda assumed that's on the cards whatever happens


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## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

Sue said:


> Why? Don't tell me, you're going to change it from within..? And to think everyone (quite rightly) took the piss when articul8 kept coming out with that bollocks.


Yes, it's not like we've seen any changes lately


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## rorymac (Oct 6, 2015)

Wo wo wo .. don't be turning up pissed TC and personally I cringe a bit at swearing so go easy on that for god sakes. Now then

Watch yer step


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## JHE (Oct 6, 2015)

YouSir said:


> All these Urbanites caving in and joining Labour, myself included, it's U75 entryism and it's too late to stop us all...



Traditionally, Labour Party branch meetings are taken up with discussions of the proposed new zebra crossing (always a good thing, IMO), the collection for Councillor Higginbottom's retirement present, now that he has finally agreed to stand down, and heated debate about whether to propose to the Constituency General Committee that they remit for further consideration the report from the Finance Sub-Committee of the Regional Labour Party. 

If branch meetings are now going to be taken up with discussions of kittens and masturbation and angry debates about who's a "cunt" and who to "ban" or "kill in the face", I'm not sure that's an improvement.


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## Sprocket. (Oct 6, 2015)

I will not be re joining, but to those who do I hope you find something there to make lives better for your local people and yourselves.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> Yes, it's not like we've seen any changes lately



Full fat social democracy?


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## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

Coolfonz said:


> And if it doesn't work out you can always rob people's coats at meetings and set fire to stuff.


Old Labour bank card PINs - 1945
New Labour bank card PINs - 1997
Entrists bank card PINs - 1917


----------



## Sue (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> Yes, it's not like we've seen any changes lately


Changes that are actually going to make any real difference? Nah.

Btw, you're not claiming Jeremy Corbyn's election is anything to do with you I hope..?


----------



## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Full fat social democracy?



things are moving in the right direction, and have to be pushed further still


----------



## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

Sue said:


> Changes that are actually going to make any real difference? Nah.
> 
> Btw, you're not claiming Jeremy Corbyn's election is anything to do with you I hope..?



It's a vindication of the arguments that people like me have been making, that the Labour left is not dead and irrelevant.


----------



## FOSS (Oct 6, 2015)

No one really called did they.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> things are moving in the right direction, and have to be pushed further still



The fact that vast chunks of the UK left are joining/engaging in the battle to build a top down, statist, programme of 80's style social democracy is certainly interesting.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The fact that vast chunks of the UK left are joining/engaging in the battle to build a top down, statist, programme of 80's style social democracy is certainly interesting.



it's not necessarily top-down/statist - the proposals on ag local energy co-ops point to alternatives


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The fact that vast chunks of the UK left are joining/engaging in the battle to build a top down, statist, programme of 80's style social democracy is certainly interesting.



I still think a big factor in that is that a lot of people moving to Labour don't remember anything pre Major and Blair. Not that I'm as young as I was but the historic battles and loses within Labour for the Left are just that to me, history. Not that I'm optimistic in any real way but the prophesies of doom and ominous warnings from the past don't seem like concrete truth to me, yet. And in my life time, where the Left has been a collection of tiny sects, failed coalitions and the odd STW style flair up this does seem like a major shift.

No doubt we'll all learn to be disappointed in time but no doubt it happened to all the wise old heads once too.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

YouSir said:


> I still think a big factor in that is that a lot of people moving to Labour don't remember anything pre Major and Blair. Not that I'm as young as I was but the historic battles and loses within Labour for the Left are just that to me, history. Not that I'm optimistic in any real way but the prophesies of doom and ominous warnings from the past don't seem like concrete truth to me, yet. And in my life time, where the Left has been a collection of tiny sects, failed coalitions and the odd STW style flair up this does seem like a major shift.
> 
> No doubt we'll all learn to be disappointed in time but no doubt it happened to all the wise old heads once too.



I can see that. I can see why sneering at those joining Labour because they want real change is both the mark of the cynical wanker and ultimately counter productive.

But - just like with dead end and soul destroying party building of the hapless sects and zombie left lash up's you rightly mention - the tragedy is that all of this energy and desire for change is going to squandered trying to build support and a base for 'leaders' whose entire agenda is speech making and the promotion of an outdated concept of what UK parliamentary social democracy can achieve in the face of global capital and 40 years of unchecked neo-liberalism.


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2015)

Hard to get excited about Labour when you're living in Lambeth, although Corbyn gets my vote.


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can see that. I can see why sneering at those joining Labour because they want real change is both the mark of the cynical wanker and ultimately counter productive.
> 
> But - just like with dead end and soul destroying party building of the hapless sects and zombie left lash up's you rightly mention - the tragedy is that all of this energy and desire for change is going to squandered trying to build support and a base for 'leaders' whose entire agenda is speech making and the promotion of an outdated concept of what UK parliamentary social democracy can achieve in the face of global capital and 40 years of unchecked neo-liberalism.



What are the alternatives though? I know the usual line I see here is local organisation. Set about building networks and connections that something bigger will emerge from. That's hard to be optimistic about though long term. Most local or campaigning stuff I see, even when it wins, is purely defensive. Save this hospital, that estate etc. Very little which actually reverses the attacks. Labour and Corbyn is any dock in a storm territory really. Though I'd happily quit if I saw a real fight to be had elsewhere.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 6, 2015)

TopCat said:


> To be fair my comrades of decades are keeping their comments to themselves on the whole. I expected more abuse but have not got it. I got involved with Class War because it enabled me to express my class hatred well.
> Never too much into anarchist theory. Strong trade union background. Labour movement parents. Not too much of a jump. Well maybe it is. Can't see me coming out with LP propaganda any time soon.
> 
> I just want to support Jeremy Corbyn and miserise the lives of the right wing cunts who successfully infested the LP for decades.
> ...



if this isn't a wind up....by what criteria are you thinking you're going to  judge 'tits up' vs 'not tits up' by ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

YouSir said:


> What are the alternatives though? I know the usual line I see here is local organisation. Set about building networks and connections that something bigger will emerge from. That's hard to be optimistic about though long term. Most local or campaigning stuff I see, even when it wins, is purely defensive. Save this hospital, that estate etc. Very little which actually reverses the attacks. Labour and Corbyn is any dock in a storm territory really. Though I'd happily quit if I saw a real fight to be had elsewhere.



Well there aren't any short cuts - and that's the problem for some of the left. They think there is a magic solution to be found in a particular issue, formation or line. There isn't. And until the left re-engage with the class they purport to represent and listen to it instead of lecturing it the trajectory you clearly identify will continue.  

I totally agree with you that what Corbyn is signifies a weakness, even a moment of desperation for some on the left. Can you explain how you think Corbyn represents a chance to 'reverse the attacks'  given an election is 5 years away?


----------



## campanula (Oct 6, 2015)

Um, well I also joined but am not really inclined to do much about it. In truth, I really felt largely motivated by a massive vindictive rage against the dire systemic failures me and mine have been though - wage stagnation, insecure employment, housing (especially housing) but have neither the character nor patience to sit in meetings, pontificating. Sadly, I have even less patience to wander about with placards...and find that I am mainly motivated by a childish desire to inflict pain, grief and, at the very least, massive inconvenience...for example, I would dearly like to see Midsummer common populated by a huge diggers community as a protest against the desperate housing crisis in Cambridge - every spare inch is being built on but not actually homes - just investment opportunities for landlords to aquire the favourite developers scam - student accomodation (or, a cheap and tiny hutch with minimal infrastructure which will, inevitably, end up being leased by local authorities down the line to house homeless families).


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Well there aren't any short cuts - and that's the problem for some of the left. They think there is a magic solution to be found in a particular issue, formation or line. There isn't. And until the left re-engage with the class they purport to represent and listen to it instead of lecturing it the trajectory you clearly identify will continue.
> 
> I totally agree with you that what Corbyn is signifies a weakness, even a moment of desperation for some on the left. Can you explain how you think Corbyn represents a chance to 'reverse the attacks'  given an election is 5 years away?


what answers do you have?
re engage with the class? how? by talking about ''re engaging with the class''. obviously not by joining a party with more working class members than the entire british revolutionary left combined? voted for and listened to by more working people than you could ever hope to be?
do we just carry on getting shit on? or do we take the option many people have and commit suicide?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

What will you do when it fails?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> What will you do when it fails?


that all depends when and how and how much has been built in the meantime.


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> What will you do when it fails?


something else, probably.


----------



## newbie (Oct 6, 2015)

BlackArab said:


> I wish it were true round my way, not even our two Green councillors appear too realise that fly-tipping, dog shit & tagging are environmental issues. I would vote for anyone who could sort these issues.


hhmm.  dunno.  There's a corner that's been traditionally used for people to dump stuff, mostly by locals from the estate but occasionally passing builders left half a bathroom or something there.  The new and enthusiastic 'community' group have now built a planter to fill that space and are celebrating that fly tipping has ceased.  Obviously it hasn't, it's just gone somewhere else.  Personally I preferred flytipping and no gentrifiers than the other way round but it's rather hard to argue that anywhere other than Urban. After all, it's an environmental issue, sometimes people had to step into the road to get round it, it was potentially dangerous for children, an eyesore, caused the council to send out a special truck, yada yada, and any slight denting of houseprice increases had nothing to do with it.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> something else, probably.


That's what I like to hear. Positivity. So many hobbies and activities to do and of course charities are always looking for volunteers.....


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> hhmm.  dunno.  There's a corner that's been traditionally used for people to dump stuff, mostly by locals from the estate but occasionally passing builders left half a bathroom or something there.  The new and enthusiastic 'community' group have now built a planter to fill that space and are celebrating that fly tipping has ceased.  Obviously it hasn't, it's just gone somewhere else.  Personally I preferred flytipping and no gentrifiers than the other way round but it's rather hard to argue that anywhere other than Urban. After all, it's an environmental issue, sometimes people had to step into the road to get round it, it was potentially dangerous for children, an eyesore, caused the council to send out a special truck, yada yada, and any slight denting of houseprice increases had nothing to do with it.


you want to live surrounded by shit just to keep the posh out?
yes, a great answer to gentrification. let's just chuck our rubbish in the street. that'll keep 'em out. a big rat filled mountain of shit. that's where we'll live.


edit: move to tipton. it's all shit with no chance of gentrification.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2015)

mr trebus held out in his fortress of filth for yeas on end


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> mr trebus held out in his fortress of filth for yeas on end


until the nay-sayers arrived


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Positivity.


after thirty years of retreat and destruction of workplace organisation, what do you suggest?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> after thirty years of retreat and destruction of workplace organisation, what do you suggest?


Not adding another ten years to that with this idiotic mania to Corbyn and Labour. Start with developing an analysis of the need for change constitutionally while developing something credible that could be backed by real working class people, rank and file workers in trades unions and out of them, developing politics in communities where Labour weighs the vote while neglecting  those same communities over generations. Plenty more of course, but why do that when it's hard work and there's Jeremy and the mythical party of the workers to get excited about before reality intrudes in the dream.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Not adding another ten years to that with this idiotic mania to Corbyn and Labour. Start with developing an analysis of the need for change constitutionally while developing something credible that could be backed by real working class people, rank and file workers in trades unions and out of them, developing politics in communities where Labour weighs the vote while neglecting  those same communities over generations. Plenty more of course, but why do that when it's hard work and there's Jeremy and the mythical party of the workers to get excited about before reality intrudes in the dream.


why is it impossible to do both?

I ask as someone who hasn't rejoined Labour. But, while I hold no illusions in the limits of Labourism, I would recognise that a defeat for Corbyn will be a defeat all anti-austerity, pro-working class, struggles.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> Old Labour bank card PINs - 1945
> New Labour bank card PINs - 1997
> Entrists bank card PINs - 1917


 I'm as bit confused as to what mine would be - member in the 80s, left after Blair, rejoined after Corbyn


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

marty21 said:


> I'm as bit confused as to what mine would be - member in the 80s, left after Blair, rejoined after Corbyn


1925

(Tony Benn's birth)


----------



## marty21 (Oct 6, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> mr trebus held out in his fortress of filth for yeas on end


A mate of mine lived around the corner from Mr Trebus, I saw his garden , it was glorious - little tunnels going underneath precariously piled up washing machines and stuff - it was a work of engineering genius!


----------



## marty21 (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> 1925
> 
> (Tony Benn's birth)


 right, that's sorted then


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> Yes, it's not like we've seen any changes lately



Is there any chance of you detailing specifically *what* changes there have been that you think are actually significant, and *why* and *how* they are (or even might be) significant to oridinary working class people, rather than the small clique of labour lefties currently congratulating themselves?


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2015)

does he have to? I think these threads are massively improved without his input tbh.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> you want to live surrounded by shit just to keep the posh out?
> yes, a great answer to gentrification. let's just chuck our rubbish in the street. that'll keep 'em out. a big rat filled mountain of shit. that's where we'll live.


Finally, a tactic that could work.


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> does he have to? I think these threads are massively improved without his input tbh.



No, he doesn't have to, I was just wondering if he wanted to have a crack at it.

On past performance I'm not that hopeful, but you never know...


----------



## ice-is-forming (Oct 6, 2015)

I've just been talking to my Dad, hes 86 today & been a LP member all his life. Hes pretty happy with the whole Jeremy thing.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 6, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Pity barbiturates like Mandrax are no longer available.


now that requires a new thread! barbs - where are they now?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

andysays said:


> Is there any chance of you detailing specifically *what* changes there have been that you think are actually significant, and *why* and *how* they are (or even might be) significant to oridinary working class people, rather than the small clique of labour lefties currently congratulating themselves?


how about tens of thousands of people joining? lots and lots of them ordinary working class people.
small clique? lol.


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> how about tens of thousands of people joining? lots and lots of them ordinary working class people.
> small clique? lol.



Granted many of those joining are ordinary wc people, but what I'm hoping for is some substantive argument as to why and how this will make a significant difference to people's lives, beyond their actual membership of the LP.

And because it probably wasn't altogether clear, the "small clique of labour lefties currently congratulating themselves" I referred to is not people joining or rejoining the LP, but those long term members who are now saying things like


articul8 said:


> It's a vindication of the arguments that people like me have been making, that the Labour left is not dead and irrelevant.



Maybe it is a vindication, but I'd like to hear how and why, rather than simply being told it is.


----------



## newbie (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> you want to live surrounded by shit just to keep the posh out?
> yes, a great answer to gentrification. let's just chuck our rubbish in the street. that'll keep 'em out. a big rat filled mountain of shit. that's where we'll live.
> 
> 
> edit: move to tipton. it's all shit with no chance of gentrification.



well having a corner for crap worked well enough for 29 of the 30 years I've lived here, but for the last 5 or so the proper posh have been pouring in and now it's been eradicated. By 'crap' I mean packaging (eg telly boxes), broken furniture and other stuff too big to go in the chute or bins. Not food waste, so nothing to encourage rats.  People round here are civilised, and anyway latterly the council had mostly cleared it by mid-moring.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2015)

Just to make it clear, i'm not sneering at anyone who has joined/rejoined. The only people i'm sneering at is those who stuck in and defended them when they invaded iraq, attacked single mothers, attacked the class as a whole  etc who now think the cavalry has arrived. Cunts. Parasites.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Not adding another ten years to that with this idiotic mania to Corbyn and Labour. Start with developing an analysis of the need for change constitutionally while developing something credible that could be backed by real working class people, rank and file workers in trades unions and out of them, developing politics in communities where Labour weighs the vote while neglecting  those same communities over generations. Plenty more of course, but why do that when it's hard work and there's Jeremy and the mythical party of the workers to get excited about before reality intrudes in the dream.


ten years? don't think so.
okay, i'll develop my analysis of the need to change constitutionally. should i do that smoking a pipe in my back garden? can't i do that in the labour party? how long is that gonna take cos i've been watching videos and reading books on the subject for years and in thirty years of this things have just got shitter. not a bit but a fucking lot.
develop something credible backed by real working people. this is a bit harder than it sounds. the only thing in the last thirty years i've seen taken on board by my workmates are ukip and ''british jobs for british workers''.
maybe i will work in my neglected community (that all live in nice houses built by the council, four hundred quid a month for a three bed semi). maybe between us we can rustle up a few thousand decent well paying jobs?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> well having a corner for crap worked well enough for 29 of the 30 years I've lived here, but for the last 5 or so the proper posh have been pouring in and now it's been eradicated. By 'crap' I mean packaging (eg telly boxes), broken furniture and other stuff too big to go in the chute or bins. Not food waste, so nothing to encourage rats.  People round here are civilised, and anyway latterly the council had mostly cleared it by mid-moring.


there's a fucking tip for that shit. 
that isn't a sign of working class pride, it's just fucking degradation.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> ten years? don't think so.
> okay, i'll develop my analysis of the need to change constitutionally. should i do that smoking a pipe in my back garden? can't i do that in the labour party? how long is that gonna take cos i've been watching videos and reading books on the subject for years and in thirty years of this things have just got shitter. not a bit but a fucking lot.
> develop something credible backed by real working people. this is a bit harder than it sounds. the only thing in the last thirty years i've seen taken on board by my workmates are ukip and ''british jobs for british workers''.
> maybe i will work in my neglected community (that all live in nice houses built by the council, four hundred quid a month for a three bed semi). maybe between us we can rustle up a few thousand decent well paying jobs?


You need to tackle the democratic deficit in this undemocratic state. Will Labour and Corbyn be doing that? Whose talking about sitting on their arse smoking a fucking pipe? I'm an SNP member, not Tory Benn or some fucking beard stroking middle class leftie intellectual. Let's see whose right and whose wrong as Corbyn fails to build anything that will actually win and importantly change life positively for millions like me at the bottom of the pile.


----------



## newbie (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> there's a fucking tip for that shit.
> that isn't a sign of working class pride, it's just fucking degradation.


suit yourself, but fwiw, 'pride' isn't anything to do with what I'm saying.  Not everyone has a car to get to the tip.


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> You need to tackle the democratic deficit in this undemocratic state. Will Labour and Corbyn be doing that? Whose talking about sitting on their arse smoking a fucking pipe? I'm an SNP member, not Tory Benn or some fucking beard stroking middle class leftie intellectual. Let's see whose right and whose wrong as Corbyn fails to build anything that will actually win and importantly change life positively for millions like me at the bottom of the pile.



Do the SNP do all that ground level hard work then? Not an argument, just a question, I'm not Scottish so don't know. Also you have the SNP, a big party you can join who, you say, will make a difference. You're berating people south of the border who don't have that option for thinking they might do with Corbyn.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> You need to tackle the democratic deficit in this undemocratic state. Will Labour and Corbyn be doing that? Whose talking about sitting on their arse smoking a fucking pipe? I'm an SNP member, not Tory Benn or some fucking beard stroking middle class leftie intellectual. Let's see whose right and whose wrong as Corbyn fails to build anything that will actually win and importantly change life positively for millions like me at the bottom of the pile.


ohh, the SNP.  No rampant hypocrisy in them talking left but doing fuck all about it then. lol


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> You need to tackle the democratic deficit in this undemocratic state. Will Labour and Corbyn be doing that? Whose talking about sitting on their arse smoking a fucking pipe? I'm an SNP member, not Tory Benn or some fucking beard stroking middle class leftie intellectual. Let's see whose right and whose wrong as Corbyn fails to build anything that will actually win and importantly change life positively for millions like me at the bottom of the pile.


snp? righto. i'll join tomorra. have they got a branch in bilston?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> suit yourself, but fwiw, 'pride' isn't anything to do with what I'm saying.  Not everyone has a car to get to the tip.


yes it is. when you have no pride in yourself or where you live and are powerless you put up with small builders dumping their shit on your street. it's not something to strive for.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> suit yourself, but fwiw, 'pride' isn't anything to do with what I'm saying.  Not everyone has a car to get to the tip.


most councils provide a phone number for the collection of larger items


----------



## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

andysays said:


> Is there any chance of you detailing specifically *what* changes there have been that you think are actually significant, and *why* and *how* they are (or even might be) significant to oridinary working class people, rather than the small clique of labour lefties currently congratulating themselves?



We now have her maj's official opposition rejecting austerity and openly supporting direct action - the scope for mobilising mass popular opposition to the neoliberal agenda is there.  Just look at the victory of the PCS strikers at the National Gallery.  That was a product of the combination of their own sacrifice and solidarity, together with (what they acknowledge has been) the shift in the political mood born out of the scale of Corbyn's support.


----------



## agricola (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> You need to tackle the democratic deficit in this undemocratic state. Will Labour and Corbyn be doing that? Whose talking about sitting on their arse smoking a fucking pipe? I'm an SNP member, not Tory Benn or some fucking beard stroking middle class leftie intellectual. Let's see whose right and whose wrong as Corbyn fails to build anything that will actually win and importantly change life positively for millions like me at the bottom of the pile.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> does he have to? I think these threads are massively improved without his input tbh.


you don't like being reminded that arguments you pooh-poohed for years have been vindicated.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)




----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> you don't like being reminded that arguments you pooh-poohed for years have been vindicated.



What did you do to bring about the shift to Corbyn?


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> you don't like being reminded that arguments you pooh-poohed for years have been vindicated.


Not at all: I'm delighted I was wrong.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> you don't like being reminded that arguments you pooh-poohed for years have been vindicated.


no they haven't. you never saw this coming.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2015)

Mation said:


> Depends on what you mean by from within. Trying to get anything done within the LP as it has been clearly isn't going anywhere. But I really do want to know what happens when a fuck load of people who don't want Blairite bollocks join en mass.


As I've been sayIng for years, the hardest part of changing the Labour Party is the absence of internal democracy. Corbyn MAY be able to change that enough that the Blairite bollocks is wiped away like the shit-smear it always was. Re-empower the wards and constituencies so that they're not just rubber-stamping _diktat_ from above, and returning a bunch of Progressive arseholes, give them a chance to enforce local needs on local issues, and Labour might win back mass trust nationally.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> no they haven't. you never saw this coming.



None of them did. Corbyn and McDonnell included.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> None of them did. Corbyn and McDonnell included.


exactly. so for articul8 to congratulate himself on his foresight is bollocks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2015)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno really.
> 
> many labour members / activists (as the recent result has shown) are to the left of the parliamentary party - although in some areas, the blairites now outnumber the more 'traditional' labour types.
> 
> ...



If they are deselected, then the "sod off" message is enforced by national bodies. MPs have the alternative of standing as independents or "crossing the floor", but they would need to be very sure of constituent support to risk that, and most of the Blairites don't have the bottle.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> Just look at the victory of the PCS strikers at the National Gallery.  That was a product of the combination of their own sacrifice and solidarity, together with (what they acknowledge has been) the shift in the political mood born out of the scale of Corbyn's support.



The jobs have been outsourced so it's an odd victory in a dispute over privatisation (although I believe the sacked shop steward there won reinstatement which is good but nothing to do with Corbyn).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> exactly. so for articul8 to congratulate himself on his foresight is bollocks.


Its the old stopped clock proverb in action.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

agricola said:


>


Oh right so that's the SNP is it? All 120,000 members? Souter's buses run OK here in Liverpool. Or do Labourites in the city only travel on Arriva?  Seriously posting this or Salmond beside Murdoch means fuck all other than the SNP aren't socialist, who said they were? We can talk about Labour killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children in Iraq if you want to?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

1pm - what's the time articul8? six o'clock!
2pm - what's the time articul8? six o'clock!
3pm - what's the time articul8? six o'clock!
4pm - what's the time articul8? six o'clock!
5pm - what's the time articul8? six o'clock!
6pm - what's the time articul8? six o'clock! vindication of my timekeeping!


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Oh right so that's the SNP is it? All 120,000 members? Souter's buses run OK here in Liverpool. Or do Labourites in the city only travel on Arriva?  Seriously posting this or Salmond beside Murdoch means fuck all other than the SNP aren't socialist, who said they were? We can talk about Labour killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children in Iraq if you want to?


is membership of the snp big in liverpool?
i was joking about joining in bilston but you might be on to something. if i can't join the snp maybe i could join podemos? or syriza?
if we ignore geography maybe we could ignore time as well? i might join the bolsheviks.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> is membership of the snp big in liverpool?
> i was joking about joining in bilston but you might be on to something. if i can't join the snp maybe i could join podemos? or syriza?
> if we ignore geography maybe we could ignore time as well? i might join the bolsheviks.



Massive Podemos Branch on the Lunt I've heard?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> What i find upsetting is not old timers like yourself or TC but the young people that were starting to wake up and putting their energies into genuine grassroots groups with real potential, like Reclaim Hackney.
> 
> Now they've paid their cash and now shift responsibility onto the LP.



I don't agree. My experience is that previously a majority of CLP members didn't confine their allegiance just to Labour, but were usually active members of local grassroots activist orgs too.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

YouSir said:


> Do the SNP do all that ground level hard work then? Not an argument, just a question, I'm not Scottish so don't know. Also you have the SNP, a big party you can join who, you say, will make a difference. You're berating people south of the border who don't have that option for thinking they might do with Corbyn.


I'm saying that an alternative to Labour can be built. SNP was getting 2-3% support in late 60s. Then it made a breakthrough and despite ups and downs got to where it is now - leading the end of the British state and securing Scottish independence in the not too distant future. The English working class are not ballot fodder for the second party of capitalism and deserve an alternative. It will only come about by the hard work and dedication of people who can see through Labourism and the middle class sects that dominate left politics in England.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> exactly. so for articul8 to congratulate himself on his foresight is bollocks.


I don't claim I "saw it coming" - but I did argue against all those who said it could never happen.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> I'm saying that an alternative to Labour can be built. SNP was getting 2-3% support in late 60s. Then it made a breakthrough and despite ups and downs got to where it is now - leading the end of the British state and securing Scottish independence in the not too distant future. The English working class are not ballot fodder for the second party of capitalism and deserve an alternative. It will only come about by the hard work and dedication of people who can see through Labourism and the middle class sects that dominate left politics in England.


I think our point was that the SNP are exactly the same as those hypocritical shits in Labour. For anyone to laugh at people joining Labour whilst supporting the fraudsters of the SNP is rank hypocrisy. The SNP are nothing but hot air, and if they did achieve independence, they'd make Blair look like Lenin.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> is membership of the snp big in liverpool?
> i was joking about joining in bilston but you might be on to something. if i can't join the snp maybe i could join podemos? or syriza?
> if we ignore geography maybe we could ignore time as well? i might join the bolsheviks.


You appear to be doing the time travelling with Corbyn as it is- 1970s Labourism. Jeremy's favourite period.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> You appear to be doing the time travelling with Corbyn as it is- 1970s Labourism. Jeremy's favourite period.


whereas you are off on another planet


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2015)

Repeating a new labour/tory smear. Interesting.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> You appear to be doing the time travelling with Corbyn as it is- 1970s Labourism. Jeremy's favourite period.


would that be the time when the gap between richest and poorest was at it's smallest?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> whereas you are off on another planet


Yes Scottish independence is just so out there.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> Repeating a new labour/tory smear. Interesting.


Not a smear but he's on record as saying he envisages a LP under him like that of Crosland and Benn in the 70s.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> What will you do when it fails?


Personally I'd seek comfort in the old saw: "burn the motherfuckers down".


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> I'm saying that an alternative to Labour can be built. SNP was getting 2-3% support in late 60s. Then it made a breakthrough and despite ups and downs got to where it is now - leading the end of the British state and securing Scottish independence in the not too distant future. The English working class are not ballot fodder for the second party of capitalism and deserve an alternative. It will only come about by the hard work and dedication of people who can see through Labourism and the middle class sects that dominate left politics in England.



Where do the SNP offer more than a Corbyn led Labour? Assuming he follows through on the democratisation process? You're lauding the alternative SNP but you're going to have to fill me in on what that major, mainstream party offers over the other one. I half agreed with what you were saying earlier about grassroots organising and doing something concrete within communities but not sure I see where the SNP do that.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> would that be the time when the gap between richest and poorest was at it's smallest?


Why was that though? Labourism or that juncture in capitalism and the strength of organised Labour?


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Not a smear but he's on record as saying he envisages a LP under him like that of Crosland and Benn in the 70s.


Where? I missed that.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Why was that though? Labourism or that juncture in capitalism and the strength of organised Labour?


how about the strength of organised labour that had been fostered and nourished by decades of keynesian economics.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

YouSir said:


> Where do the SNP offer more than a Corbyn led Labour? Assuming he follows through on the democratisation process? You're lauding the alternative SNP but you're going to have to fill me in on what that major, mainstream party offers over the other one. I half agreed with what you were saying earlier about grassroots organising and doing something concrete within communities but not sure I see where the SNP do that.


The SNP for me and thousands of others in it, is a Party of independence. We are moving on in a socialist direction when that is secured. The independence movement has been where the grassroots work has flourished although the SNP has a formidable community machine at work these days.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Yes Scottish independence is just so out there.


no, believing the SNP are anything but the first party of Scottish capitalism, that they will do anything to support genuine democracy, that they are anything but a bourgeois nationalist farce, is completely out of this world.



fiannanahalba said:


> We are moving on in a socialist direction when that is secured.


Jesus, the Stalinism of fools


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> how about the strength of organised labour that had been fostered and nourished by decades of keynesian economics.


Yes the post war consensus that saw one nation Toryism building council houses at a greater pace than Labour. Hey that's over, but I like to think the neo Keynsianists like you have new big answers?


----------



## YouSir (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> The SNP for me and thousands of others in it, is a Party of independence. We are moving on in a socialist direction when that is secured. The independence movement has been where the grassroots work has flourished although the SNP has a formidable community machine at work these days.



So it's not a workers party, or a Socialist one, though you hope it will be one day..? Yeah, kind of undoes your slating of people joining Labour.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Yes the post war consensus that saw one nation Toryism building council houses at a greater pace than Labour. Hey that's over, but I like to think the neo Keynsianists like you have new big answers?


worldwide communist revolution.


----------



## agricola (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Oh right so that's the SNP is it? All 120,000 members? Souter's buses run OK here in Liverpool. Or do Labourites in the city only travel on Arriva?  Seriously posting this or Salmond beside Murdoch means fuck all other than the SNP aren't socialist, who said they were? We can talk about Labour killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children in Iraq if you want to?



So along comes a Labour leader who demonstrably opposed the war in Iraq, who opposes rail privatization (where the likes of Souter continue to get millions from), who opposes Press malpractice of the kind that Murdoch's papers are accused of, and who can at least have an argument made about him that he is a little bit socialist.  However he should be ignored because the Murdoch papers will make sure he won't win, and he doesn't have the kind of financial support that Souter gives the SNP, but we can expect the SNP to deliver socialism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> I don't claim I "saw it coming" - but I did argue against all those who said it could never happen.


Very little has happened yet. Corbyn needs to alter a lot of internal party structures (something that can only be done slowly given that said structures are riddled with the Labour right) before much of political moment for the wider party can happen, let alone for the electorate.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> worldwide communist revolution.



Communisme Sans Frontiers.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Communisme Sans Frontiers.


it's a knockout idea!


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

bollocks. now i've got a peter gabriel song stuck in my head.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2015)

games without frontiers, war without tears


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> bollocks. now i've got a peter gabriel song stuck in my head.



On the bright side unlike myself I bet you don't get asked for his autograph!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> bollocks. now i've got a peter gabriel song stuck in my head.


Running up that hill. With James bond.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

whistling tunes i'm kissing baboons in the jungle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 6, 2015)

willy's happy again


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't agree. My experience is that previously a majority of CLP members didn't confine their allegiance just to Labour, but were usually active members of local grassroots activist orgs too.



You have experience of the majority of CLP members!? I'd get yourself down the clinic.


----------



## Anti War (Oct 6, 2015)

Unfortunately, all the evidence suggests that the Corbyn project is doomed.

Even if Corbyn does stick to his opposition to Trident, he seems to have no idea how to defend such a policy from the resistance of the military establishment.

When a senior general said that the British military will ‘use whatever mean possible, fair or foul’ to prevent Corbyn from ‘emasculating’ their power, Corbyn’s response was merely to suggest that it didn’t matter because the general had now been ‘told off’ by his superiors!

In terms of economics, a likely trajectory of any Corbyn-led government will be to end up imposing austerity - just as Syriza are now doing in Greece.







Labour already say they support the Tory idea of a ‘welfare cap of £120 billion’. Indeed, the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, sounds more like Thatcher than Marx when he says: ‘We are going to have to live within our means and we always will’.

Like Ken Livingstone, who he worked with in the 1980s, McDonnell is very good at sometimes sounding radical. But, once in power, McDonnell may well repeat Livingstone’s trajectory as London’s Mayor, i.e. he’ll just end up running capitalism. It is significant that Corbyn’s top advisers used to advise Livingstone when he was Mayor.

This is not to say that Labour’s new leaders do not have other, more ‘radical', tendencies. Both Corbyn and McDonnell, for instance, believe that ‘we can learn a lot’ from Castro’s dictatorship in Cuba and its ‘amazing success story’ [sic] . Furthermore, back in 1991, when even official Communists were giving up on the Soviet Union, Corbyn still saw the Soviet Union as an important part of the leadership of the international left, at one point saying that he was ‘concerned at the break-up of the Soviet Union and the leadership it gave.’ (_Morning Star_, 24/9/91)

Right-wingers may use such facts to claim that Labour’s leaders are secret revolutionaries. But anyone who knows the history of Stalinism knows that people with Stalinist illusions are often opposed to revolutionary change.

One obvious example is Socialist Action, an ex-Trotskyist group who have been accused of having influence over Corbyn’s leadership. Socialist Action, for instance, say that in a war between the US and China they would defend China on the grounds that the ‘Chinese capitalist class … do not hold power’. Such pro-Chinese views may worry a pro-US military establishment. But all these views really show is how Socialist Action are more Stalinist fantasists than any sort of genuine revolutionaries.

For more arguments against the Labour Party see:
Arguments AGAINST Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party


----------



## killer b (Oct 6, 2015)

I love it when posters come over all haughty and politically pure on threads like this, then quickly reveal themselves to have made at least as shabby a compromise as anyone whose joined the LP. Good work fiannanahalba


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2015)

Perhaps time to set up an external faction?


----------



## andysays (Oct 6, 2015)

articul8 said:


> We now have her maj's official opposition rejecting austerity and openly supporting direct action - the scope for mobilising mass popular opposition to the neoliberal agenda is there.  Just look at the victory of the PCS strikers at the National Gallery.  That was a product of the combination of their own sacrifice and solidarity, together with (what they acknowledge has been) the shift in the political mood born out of the scale of Corbyn's support.



The victory of the PCS strikers at the National Gallery may be good news (I don't know enough about it to say for sure), but I'm not sure that simply pointing to one victory is enough.

What you really need to do to convince me (and, I suspect, many others) is to demonstrate how and where this "openly supporting direct action" is going on, how far extra-parliamentary action will be permitted and even encouraged, and specifically how and where the "scope for mobilising mass popular opposition to the neoliberal agenda" is actually going to be put into practice by the Corbyn-led Labour Party, without being diverted down the same old bureaucratic cul-de-sacs and hijacked by the same old party hacks.

Once the celebrations and the claims of vindication are over and the hangover has cleared, what has actually changed which makes this supposed new dawn the real thing rather than just another false dawn? You haven't answered that question, you haven't attempted to answer it, in fact you appear not to even realise that it is a question worth asking.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Well there aren't any short cuts - and that's the problem for some of the left. They think there is a magic solution to be found in a particular issue, formation or line. There isn't. And until the left re-engage with the class they purport to represent and listen to it instead of lecturing it the trajectory you clearly identify will continue.
> 
> I totally agree with you that what Corbyn is signifies a weakness, even a moment of desperation for some on the left. Can you explain how you think Corbyn represents a chance to 'reverse the attacks'  given an election is 5 years away?



Any sign of that? I reckon the newly energised democratic left will push its energies into anti-war,  anti-imperialism, Syria, etc, pro open borders, refugee support(my MP was inundated by offers of support) anti-racism, especially in the light of Mays Powellite speech) and lots of anti-austerity stuff without actually doing anything. All worthwhile, but I just doesn't seem a desire to engage with WC issues and especially those forgotten about on the estates.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> Any sign of that? I reckon the newly energised democratic left will push its energies into anti-war,  anti-imperialism, Syria, etc, pro open borders, refugee support(my MP was inundated by offers of support) anti-racism, especially in the light of Mays Powellite speech) and lots of anti-austerity stuff without actually doing anything. All worthwhile, but I just doesn't seem *a desire to engage with WC issues* and especially those forgotten about on the estates.


those are working class issues, ffs


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> those are working class issues, ffs



I think he means issues raised on the doorstep/in pubs in working class communities - anti social behaviour, crime, immigration, housing etc. Not sure I've heard much from Corbyn on any of this. 

Syria, 'war', the call for open borders are issues the left tends to believe the WC should be interested in.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

Sacrilege!


----------



## tony.c (Oct 6, 2015)

I don't think that's true. If you saw his first party political broadcast a couple of nights ago it was firmly aimed at the wc voters, nothing about Syria, war or open borders iirc.
It was about lack of housing, poverty wages and insecurity for the majority.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think he means issues raised on the doorstep/in pubs in working class communities - anti social behaviour, crime, immigration, housing etc. Not sure I've heard much from Corbyn on any of this.


is he fuck. 

And if you haven't heard anything from Corbyn about housing, you're deaf.




> Syria, 'war', the call for open borders are issues the left tends to believe the WC should be interested in.


yeah, the working class dont care about 'war' because they're never the ones who die in them, are they?


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

tony.c said:


> I don't think that's true. If you saw his first party political broadcast a couple of nights ago it was firmly aimed at the wc voters, nothing about Syria, war or open borders iirc.
> It was about lack of housing, poverty wages and insecurity for the majority.


don't bring facts into this! we need more stereotypes and ill-informed rubbish.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

tony.c said:


> I don't think that's true. If you saw his first party political broadcast a couple of nights ago it was firmly aimed at the wc voters, nothing about Syria, war or open borders iirc.
> It was about lack of housing, poverty wages and insecurity for the majority.



Didn't know there was one, will have to go on YT.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)




----------



## Shirl (Oct 6, 2015)

My membership card came at the weekend. I will now go back to the start and read this thread.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> is he fuck.
> 
> And if you haven't heard anything from Corbyn about housing, you're deaf.
> 
> ...




Yes, but did you go up to say the Manor during the Iraq War?, covered in union jacks and support our boys. like many I was involved in STW etc and there were few manual workers, etc, even fewer from the estates.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


>




thanks

just hoping for practical action now.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


>




One thing, he is nothing like Michael Foot, as his detractors claim, he is very self assured in that video.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> Yes, but did you go up to say the Manor during the Iraq War?, covered in union jacks and support our boys. like many I was involved in STW etc and there were few manual workers, etc, even fewer from the estates.


what bollocks.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> Yes, but did you go up to say the Manor during the Iraq War?, covered in union jacks and support our boys. like many I was involved in STW etc and there were few manual workers, etc, even fewer from the estates.


I saw plenty from Pitsmoor, Firth Park, Darnall, and Southey (the places I was politically active in).  And, yes, that's wc off all races and religions.


----------



## BlackArab (Oct 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> hhmm.  dunno.  There's a corner that's been traditionally used for people to dump stuff, mostly by locals from the estate but occasionally passing builders left half a bathroom or something there.  The new and enthusiastic 'community' group have now built a planter to fill that space and are celebrating that fly tipping has ceased.  Obviously it hasn't, it's just gone somewhere else.  Personally I preferred flytipping and no gentrifiers than the other way round but it's rather hard to argue that anywhere other than Urban. After all, it's an environmental issue, sometimes people had to step into the road to get round it, it was potentially dangerous for children, an eyesore, caused the council to send out a special truck, yada yada, and any slight denting of houseprice increases had nothing to do with it.



the flytipping round my way is symptomatic of council neglect, it wouldn't be allowed in posher areas so I don't see why we should put up with it, Funny enough I've done the planter thing but I'm no gentrifier but just trying to make my nearby hotspot more than just a shooting gallery.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 6, 2015)

discokermit said:


> there's a fucking tip for that shit.
> that isn't a sign of working class pride, it's just fucking degradation.



call the anarcho mop brigade!


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> ohh, the SNP.  No rampant hypocrisy in them talking left but doing fuck all about it then. lol


What...you mean the SNP that didn't enforce those new contract 'proposals' for the NHS with all those demos down there in England?  The SNP that's frozen the council tax year on year, free travel for the old, no prescription charges?   Tory bastards.


----------



## agricola (Oct 6, 2015)

DexterTCN said:


> What...you mean the SNP that didn't enforce those new contract 'proposals' for the NHS with all those demos down there in England?  The SNP that's frozen the council tax year on year, free travel for the old, no prescription charges?   Tory bastards.



er - half of those things you cite are Tory policies (Osborne has been urging council tax freezes since they got in in 2010, and Boris-ruled London has free travel for young and old), and as for the other two Wales has had free prescriptions for longer than the Scots have and won't be implementing the new junior doctors proposals either.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

DexterTCN said:


> What...you mean the SNP that didn't enforce those new contract 'proposals' for the NHS with all those demos down there in England?  The SNP that's frozen the council tax year on year, free travel for the old, no prescription charges?   Tory bastards.


Largely the same as Wales then (where they have the relevant powers). Where it was done by those far right Labourites. 

And I didn't call them Tories. They're not,any more. But anyone who thinks they are more trustworthy than Corbyn is truly deluded.


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 6, 2015)

belboid said:


> Largely the same as Wales then (where they have the relevant powers). Where it was done by those far right Labourites.
> 
> And I didn't call them Tories. They're not,any more. But anyone who thinks they are more trustworthy than Corbyn is truly deluded.


Don't vote for them then, it's your choice.

I don't know what you're on about though...trustworthy...deluded?   This thread is about someone taking a positive step as they see it.   I was pointing out that up here those positive steps are having an effect and have been for quite a while...as I see it.  For me those positive steps are to the left...that doesn't mean I have a left-wing government...shit is more complicated than that.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 6, 2015)

Corbyn is backtracking and accommodating blairites while not in power. What makes anyone think he is going to be trustworthy and in any way radical if he ever reaches power?


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Corbyn is backtracking and accommodating blairites while not in power. What makes anyone think he is going to be trustworthy and in any way radical if he ever reaches power?


It will be really difficult for him.   Look at the daily onslaught up here.   We're in Kansas, he's in Oz.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Corbyn is backtracking and accommodating blairites while not in power. What makes anyone think he is going to be trustworthy and in any way radical if he ever reaches power?


Whereas your heroes are in hock to homophobe Souter and all round scumbag Murdoch. You'd have to be an imbecile to tuts them further than you could spit them. 

Amy chance of you coming back to expand on your defence or third period Stalinism, by the way?  You know, this statist nonsense from the thirties that has never ever worked anywhere?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 7, 2015)

Murdoch got met by Salmond as FM as you may know Sky employs lots of people in Scotland. So just normal business there and you can get off your moral high horse because Murdoch has been meeting Labour leaders in the past. He has even complimented Corbyn recently. Souter doesn't give as much to the SNP as our lottery winners the Weirs. You got a problem with them? As for the Stalinist jibe, I believe independence opens up the potential for socialist politics to advance in Scotland and in the rump UK. What disappoints is Corbyns contempt for working an anti austerity alliance with the SNP. His visit to Scotland went down badly. Five SNP victories by good margins in former Labour heartlands and the polls suggesting Corbyns Labour are struggling to beat the blue Tories into third place.


----------



## killer b (Oct 7, 2015)

Lol.


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> Murdoch got met by Salmond as FM as you may know Sky employs lots of people in Scotland. So just normal business there and you can get off your moral high horse because Murdoch has been meeting Labour leaders in the past. He has even complimented Corbyn recently. Souter doesn't give as much to the SNP as our lottery winners the Weirs. You got a problem with them? As for the Stalinist jibe, I believe independence opens up the potential for socialist politics to advance in Scotland and in the rump UK. What disappoints is Corbyns contempt for working an anti austerity alliance with the SNP. His visit to Scotland went down badly. Five SNP victories by good margins in former Labour heartlands and the polls suggesting Corbyns Labour are struggling to beat the blue Tories into third place.


Lol indeed. That's exactly the same pisspoor excuse labour et al always give for meeting Murdoch, and for taking money of scumbags. They were hypocrites just as the SNP are hypocrites. a right pair of Janus's. And then you get confused, are you supporting the SNP because they will become socialists after independence, or because independence will allow socialist groups to flourish? If it's the latter, then why bother with all this wholly unconvincing defence of the worst aspects of the SNP? If it's the former, then there aren't enough lol's in the world. And you know, your description of this hoped for process is _precisely_ that of the Stalinists. And it has never ever worked.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 7, 2015)

The SNP are a broad party of independence, 120,000 members in a nation of Scotland's size would be comparable to a Party of  well over a million in England. The SNP exists to achieve independence. It's that above all else that binds it together. With the achievement of independence it will change and most likely split on a left right axis. The left split will offer in conjunction with others outside the party, the best chance of delivering a cogent and credible socialist challenge. Most informed people would expect the SNP to remain in power on a relatively progressive programme. Should they fail to do that then they would be out of power sooner rather than later. So to recap for you and other scoffers, independence for socialists like me is a prerequisite to a workers republic and socialist society. Your British road to socialism is dead and Corbyns Labour Party will have to deal with a terrain that they as yet don't appear to understand.


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2015)

'British road to socialism' lol. You really are quoting pure Stalinism. 

Where has you plan ever worked? Doing well in South Africa, isn't it?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 7, 2015)

The ANC are corrupt. They were effectively shaped by imperialism before they took power and IMO need overthrowing. Imperialism has managed national liberation struggles in other places to its advantage. Ireland, Palestine being two cases.


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2015)

And somehow it won't in Scotland. Come on.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 7, 2015)

The SNP haven't set themselves out to be revolutionary anti imperialists that would attract the corrupting influence of imperialism. Safe to say they will be fairly pragmatic and prosaic as the government of an independent Scotland , happy to be in both the EU and NATO. The socialists and more revolutionary elements of Scotland will be a lot more radical and anti imperialist.


----------



## agricola (Oct 7, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> The SNP haven't set themselves out to be revolutionary anti imperialists that would attract the corrupting influence of imperialism. Safe to say they will be fairly pragmatic and prosaic as the government of an independent Scotland , happy to be in both the EU and NATO. The socialists and more revolutionary elements of Scotland will be a lot more radical and anti imperialist.



_"Independence for Yr Hen Ogledd"_


----------



## killer b (Oct 7, 2015)

fucking hell. I don't have a problem with people making a pragmatic choice to support independence - I'd do the same myself if I lived in Scotland. But to completely swallow the kool-aid and make spirited defences of the worst actions of the SNP with opinions culled from _Wings over Scotland _while criticising those south of the border for making a similar pragmatic choice is fucking hilarious.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2015)

Shirl said:


> I will now go back to the start and read this thread.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!


----------



## Mation (Oct 7, 2015)

Anti War said:


> Unfortunately, all the evidence suggests that the Corbyn project is doomed.
> 
> Even if Corbyn does stick to his opposition to Trident, he seems to have no idea how to defend such a policy from the resistance of the military establishment.
> 
> ...


You haven't said anything.


----------



## chilango (Oct 7, 2015)

It's pretty understandable that right here, right now, people will join the Labour Party in the belief that small, limited, concrete victories are more possible than the bigger but less tangible and less immediate promises of extra-parliamentary routes. It's also pretty understandable that people join  the Greens or the SNP or Plaid with similar motives.

To argue that anybody joining with any grander illusions than that (such as seeing these parties as vehicles for significant social change ( or simply halting austerity) are headed for disappointment is equally reasonable.


----------



## killer b (Oct 7, 2015)

Is anyone making those grander claims? Of the labour party I mean, fiannanahalba's snp delusions are laid out quite clearly above...


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> The SNP haven't set themselves out to be revolutionary anti imperialists that would attract the corrupting influence of imperialism. Safe to say they will be fairly pragmatic and prosaic as the government of an independent Scotland , happy to be in both the EU and NATO. The socialists and more revolutionary elements of Scotland will be a lot more radical and anti imperialist.


wow, that would be hilarious if you weren't serious. If you think your bourgeois nationalist bunch of fraudsters, who discovered social democracy only after decades of being the Tartan Tories, are the way forward, then, you really do have no hope.  At least your Stalinism is out in the open.  Tho you knew that already, of course


----------



## J Ed (Oct 7, 2015)

fiannanahalba said:


> The SNP haven't set themselves out to be revolutionary anti imperialists that would attract the corrupting influence of imperialism. Safe to say they will be fairly pragmatic and prosaic as the government of an independent Scotland , happy to be in both the EU and NATO. The socialists and more revolutionary elements of Scotland will be a lot more radical and anti imperialist.



Honestly I'm English and I'm pro-independence (if the Scottish people want it), I'd rather have your average SNP MP than your average Labour MP and I'm very concerned by the anti-Scottish sentiment which seems to be growing in England but I do not buy this at all. The SNP haven't 'attracted the corrupting influence of imperialism' because they are as much in hock to the same sort of foreign policy consensus as any other establishment party, one of the first things Nicola Sturgeon did after becoming leader was to tour the USA to win approval from American establishment liberals.

I get where you are coming from, and if I lived in Scotland I would join the RIC but the idea that an independent Scotland would be that much further along your 'revolutionary road' seems a bit far fetched to me.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 7, 2015)

belboid said:


> most councils provide a phone number for the collection of larger items



Around my way it's 'property developers' and landlords that are the chief offenders, who can't get their stuff taken away for nothing. Including dumping asbestos on the playing fields.  They're not folk heroes, they're scum, pulling in thousands a month in housing benefit but not paying for a skip, leaving others to foot the bill.  Always obvious who's doing it, you can follow the trail of debris back to the house in most cases, but nothing fucking happens because some areas are just left to rot.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 7, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Communisme Sans Frontiers.



I think I have that font on my laptop.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 7, 2015)

articul8 said:


> We now have her maj's official opposition rejecting austerity and openly supporting direct action - the scope for mobilising mass popular opposition to the neoliberal agenda is there.  Just look at the victory of the PCS strikers at the National Gallery.  That was a product of the combination of their own sacrifice and solidarity, together with (what they acknowledge has been) the shift in the political mood born out of the scale of Corbyn's support.


 New Chief exex can come in and diss the predecessor by settling - and it seems a bit of a limited victory - they've agreed to review privatisation in a year or so.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 7, 2015)

I've liked a few of those posts from belboid above, but mostly because I think the SNP are far too undercriticised and under-analysed on here by some. Or are those living outside Scotland (eg in Wales  ) supposed to button it?

Myself I'm not even *that* much of a leftie (neither is Corbyn  ) but there's nothing wrong with realistic criticism.

Of Labour definitely, but also of the oh-so-pure SNP ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 7, 2015)

marty21 said:


> New Chief exex can come in and diss the predecessor by settling - and it seems a bit of a limited victory - they've agreed to review privatisation in a year or so.



Yes, I read the PCS page about that, and I did think 'victory' was well overdoing it there.

PCS is my union -- but their victory-achieving powers are a tad limited 

This week 94.5% have voted 'No' vs 9.5% 'Yes' in an indicative PCS ballot against linking performance ratings to annual pay settlements in the DfT, but that's 'indicative' only and I can't right now find the link anyway


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2015)

First meeting tonight. Big spliff, no booze.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2015)

have you memorised the words to the Red Flag?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> have you memorised the words to the Red Flag?


he could always 'redwood' it and fake along.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2015)

"Momentum", or is it "PeoplesMomentum" (sic) or "the People's Momentum"?
Momentum (@PeoplesMomentum) on Twitter


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2015)

More here..
Meet Momentum: the next step in the transformation of our politics


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2015)

brogdale said:


> More here..
> Meet Momentum: the next step in the transformation of our politics


Shia Labeouf says British politics just got very exciting!


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2015)

killer b said:


> Shia Labeouf says British politics just got very exciting!


Who?


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2015)

He's a famous American actor. Clive Lewis namechecks him in that article - the only person he quotes in fact. Very encouraging.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 8, 2015)

Once more I ask: who doesn't like Shia LaBeouf?


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2015)

I read something a bit ago about him reading 'society of the spectacle' to an LSE class via satellite link up instead of the lecture he was supposed to deliver. I approved of that.


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2015)

sorry, London College of Fashion.


----------



## belboid (Oct 8, 2015)

There's a transformers joke in there somewhere, but I can't be arsed to think of it


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 8, 2015)

The more I see of the absurd attacks on Corbyn and his social democratic politics the more I'm tempted to re-join. Have we come some far that such small ambitions are beyond the pale?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 8, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The more I see of the absurd attacks on Corbyn and his social democratic politics the more I'm tempted to re-join.
> Louis MacNeice



Really?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 8, 2015)

Momentum is a great name


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2015)

isn't this the external faction The39thStep was proposing the other day? What next, soothsayer?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 8, 2015)

There is a website too Momentum: A new kind of politics


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

"...but it is independent of the Labour Party's leadership". "We are dedicated to building our anti austerity movement and working towards a Labour Government in 2020 with Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister."  That pretty internal. And pretry much what there's always been - but this time the new members and momentum are with the leadership. So when this lot start wagging their finger they've got nothing.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

Maybe they can fight the red pepper bandwagon network for the title of _the real voice of hope._


----------



## belboid (Oct 8, 2015)

killer b said:


> isn't this the external faction The39thStep was proposing the other day? What next, soothsayer?


not really tho - it wants to organise "supporters amongst the Labour Party membership as well as the wider social movement which is springing up"

There are proposals for an external faction tho, to be put to Left Unity conference.  Sadly, it isn't a motion proposed by Steve Freeman, whose own proposal is differently silly. http://leftunity.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/motions-for-ballot.pdf


----------



## killer b (Oct 8, 2015)

yeah, it's the labour party for people who would be bored to tears with the usual business of the local party isn't it?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 8, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Really?



I feel responsible as I paid three quid and voted for him; it feels like stepping back from someone who you encouraged to get stuck in...if you get what I mean.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. just to make clear I haven't under gone some Damascian conversion and now see the Labour Party as the truth, the light and the way.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 8, 2015)

belboid said:


> not really tho - it wants to organise "supporters amongst the Labour Party membership as well as the wider social movement which is springing up"
> 
> There are proposals for an external faction tho, to be put to Left Unity conference.  Sadly, it isn't a motion proposed by Steve Freeman, whose own proposal is differently silly. http://leftunity.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/motions-for-ballot.pdf



That is very silly...but it isn't the only silly motion submitted, or even the silliest.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## belboid (Oct 8, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That is very silly...but it isn't the only silly motion submitted, or even the silliest.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


it'll always be hard to top



> e) The dissolution of the standing army and the formation of a popular militia under democratic control.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 8, 2015)

belboid said:


> it'll always be hard to top



What about the one bloke that wanted to support ISIS?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2015)

raceplaygate


----------



## J Ed (Oct 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> raceplaygate



I thought that was just ISN or did that vitally important topic also make it to LU?


----------



## belboid (Oct 8, 2015)

J Ed said:


> What about the one bloke that wanted to support ISIS?


he is one of the sponsors of the motion i posted!


----------



## belboid (Oct 8, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> raceplaygate


Never made it into motion form


----------



## mauvais (Oct 8, 2015)

belboid said:


> it'll always be hard to top


If you can't beat ISIS...


----------



## boohoo (Oct 8, 2015)

TopCat  Looking forward to your thoughts on the meeting. Hope you manage to stay awake


----------



## Argonia (Oct 8, 2015)

More people have joined Labour since the General Election than are in the entire Conservative party:

More people have joined Labour since the election than are in the entire Conservative party


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

Argonia said:


> More people have joined Labour since the General Election than are in the entire Conservative party:
> 
> More people have joined Labour since the election than are in the entire Conservative party


Go labour! Get out there and turn that into victory!

I think every second  thursday in the month is going to bore the arses off you all.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2015)

killer b said:


> yeah, it's the labour party for people who would be bored to tears with the usual business of the local party isn't it?



I think you are so right, it will all the usual bandwagons, etc, nothing about the local communities,


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 8, 2015)

There's nought like a pedestal 
to sacrifice ones gods


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Go labour! Get out there and turn that into victory!
> 
> *I think every second  thursday in the month is going to bore the arses off you all*.



Those dull-as-shit 'meetings' didn't do a lot for my staying awake either, about 25 (?) or so years ago. At least we got into the pub later ... very much later ...

Why the fuck were those meetings not held in pubs?

And I was the fucking branch secretary for 18 months ...   ... circa 1991/1992!

(Dropped out of membership pretty soon after Blair ... before 2000/not too long after 1997, for sure ... genuinely can't remember exactly when)

Not rejoining.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Go labour! Get out there and turn that into victory!
> 
> I think every second  thursday in the month is going to bore the arses off you all.


183,000 people joined. do you not think there is an opportunity here?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> 183,000 people joined. do you not think there is an opportunity here?


Not in the labour party no.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 8, 2015)

My CLP won't even entertain my own appetite for boredom - no reply to emails. Makes no odds as they have about as much chance of electoral victory here as on, say, Neptune. Similarly blue.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Not in the labour party no.


mebbe, but that's 183000 people, lots of them young, lots of them new to politics, who are receptive to left wing ideas. don't you think getting involved and putting your ideas over to them might be an idea?


----------



## sihhi (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> mebbe, but that's 183000 people, lots of them young, lots of them new to politics, who are receptive to left wing ideas. don't you think getting involved and putting your ideas over to them might be an idea?



Joining the Labour Party means that whatever comes out of someone's mouth, _in practice_ it means putting over Syriza-lite politics. 

It will lead in circles, though the same could be said of much of the rest of us cobwebs.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> mebbe, but that's 183000 people, lots of them young, lots of them new to politics, who are receptive to left wing ideas. don't you think getting involved and putting your ideas over to them might be an idea?


Yeah, but not in the labour party.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

sihhi said:


> It will lead in circles, though the same could be said of much of the rest of us cobwebs.


circles would be better than constant retreat or ossification.
it's where the youth are going. it's where ordinary working class people are going.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> circles would be better than constant retreat or ossification.
> it's where the youth are going. it's where ordinary working class people are going.


What youth you mixing with?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What youth you mixing with?


none since the court order.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> circles would be better than constant retreat or ossification.
> it's where the youth are going. it's where ordinary working class people are going.


Where is the single thing this has stopped or could help to stop retreat?  And what of it isn't just the usual left appeal to_ fight back_ that existed before?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> none since the court order.


All about remote cams now. But, that's for another thread.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Where is the single thing this has stopped or could help to stop retreat?  And what of it isn't just the usual left appeal to_ fight back_ that existed before?


i have no idea. all i know is, that's where folks is, and if you want any input, that's where you is.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> i have no idea. all i know is, that's where folks is, and if you want any input, that's where you is.


It was all the time that you said it wasn't too then.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> It was all the time that you said it wasn't too then.


different party, different people, different situation with different possibilities.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> different party, different people, different situation with different possibilities.


Too easy, too glib. If you're going to throw all the things that you believed in overboard then you have to do it a bit better than that. esp if you're going to use your analysis of 'new times' to have a pop at people who don't agree because they're not part of the new class-coalition or whatever it is and so are anti-w/c then. Not part of the new progressives.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

If this stuff does creep up day by over the next years then top-cats tags will be correct. It moves from a defence of the choice to defence of the party to attacks on people who don't agree to defence of your own position in the party. I've saved some of you a decade. Don't do it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

Non-labour members already being rhetorically cut out as not part of the w/c. Not in communion.

All the new members i've seen have been stalinists and teachers.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Too easy, too glib. If you're going to throw all the things that you believed in overboard then you have to do it a bit better than that. esp if you're going to use your analysis of 'new times' to have a pop at people who don't agree because they're not part of the new class-coalition or whatever it is and so are anti-w/c then. Not part of the new progressives.


hang on a minute, it was you having a pop with yopur reaction to the membership numbers.
maybe it is glib and easy, i'm not gonna give you anything more than that cos i don't have anything more than that.
i haven't thrown anything overboard, i still know the limits of social democracy, keynesianism, etc. and if i join i'll be quite open about it. and maybe i can persuade others. maybe not.
i see no real alternative though that isn't the same shit and irrelevance and banging your head against a brickwall as the revolutionary left has been coming out with for years with nobody listening.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> All the new members i've seen have been stalinists and teachers.


so thats where the post delta exodus went lol


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Non-labour members already being rhetorically cut out as not part of the w/c. Not in communion.
> 
> All the new members i've seen have been stalinists and teachers.


get to fuck.
i only know two. my brother and my sister in law. he's a binman and she doesn't work.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> hang on a minute, it was you having a pop with yopur reaction to the membership numbers.
> maybe it is glib and easy, i'm not gonna give you anything more than that cos i don't have anything more than that.
> i haven't thrown anything overboard, i still know the limits of social democracy, keynesianism, etc. and if i join i'll be quite open about it. and maybe i can persuade others. maybe not.
> i see no real alternative though that isn't the same shit and irrelevance and banging your head against a brickwall as the revolutionary left has been coming out with for years with nobody listening.


You _have_ thrown  it all overboard - the idea that a non-leninist  party is reflection of class interest, that the wider structure cannot be effected by  a single parties action, that representative democracy is a cover for capitalist democracy. Or if you haven't. you#re just saying, join, it's shit, we can't do what i promised.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2015)

discokermit said:


> get to fuck.
> i only know two. my brother and my sister in law. he's a binman and she doesn't work.


But when you talk to the w/c you must go through their renewed voice  - the labour party. £buillipmnm mebnerssbebrtsfg!!!


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

my position,


----------



## discokermit (Oct 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> But when you talk to the w/c you must go through their renewed voice  - the labour party. £buillipmnm mebnerssbebrtsfg!!!


yeh well, when i'm arguing with people who in response to the refugee crisis are saying ''shoot the fucking niggers'', even that's way, way to the left of where they are.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 9, 2015)

discokermit said:


> my position,




Are you going to join the Tories then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Non-labour members already being rhetorically cut out as not part of the w/c. Not in communion.
> 
> All the new members i've seen have been stalinists and teachers.


and sometimes stalinist teachers


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2015)

Kick patriarchy out of the left


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 9, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Kick patriarchy out of the left


 Don't be so rude about butchers!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2015)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't be so rude about butchers!


Labour party humour. Fantastic!

Isn't it?


----------



## J Ed (Oct 9, 2015)

Jeremy Corbyn's Team Launch Ongoing Activist Campaign



> “We’d hope to demonstrate through getting organised we can get good outcomes,” a spokesperson for the campaign told BuzzFeed News. “By helping people to get organised and using the principles of collective co-operation and solidarity we hope to show – on a micro scale – how Labour if they got into government could transform the county and society on a massive scale.”
> 
> It will also form organisations along geographic lines or on issues that will enable the left-wing movement to “deliver things now” with the Conservatives set to remain in government for another four years. One of the first proposals is to create a Momentum-aligned campaign group for the rights of private-sector tenants which would provide legal advice and help people get back their deposits.


----------



## youngian (Oct 9, 2015)

Corbyn got the leadership job he never sought as his SPAD opponents were so useless. But I suspect he hasn't got the momentum to win a conker fight in the playground let alone take on Osborne and Crosby in 2020. Luckily Labour had the good sense to make Tom Watson deputy, a top class nasty operator who'll hopefully stick the Tories with their own medicine.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> and sometimes stalinist teachers


Reminds self to check membership rolls for Norfolk CLPs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2015)

youngian said:


> Corbyn got the leadership job he never sought as his SPAD opponents were so useless. But I suspect he hasn't got the momentum to win a conker fight in the playground let alone take on Osborne and Crosby in 2020. Luckily Labour had the good sense to make Tom Watson deputy, a top class nasty operator who'll hopefully stick the Tories with their own medicine.


Hammer of the nonces and political brawler he may be but he's also of the NL mould. Whats the point of having them win with that in mind and him in the big chair? I mean, I'm not voting anyway, but for anyone who wanted the new politics (suspiciously not new but hey ho)? Wheres the mandate of greyskull?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 10, 2015)

I'm not gonna join but I am enjoying the show and genuinely wish the likes of TopCat the very best of luck. I'd probably vote for a Corbyn-led labour party in a GE if I lived somewhere my vote mattered but Gary Glitter could get elected round here if he stood on a labour ticket so I probably won't be arsed.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 10, 2015)

youngian said:


> Corbyn got the leadership job he never sought as his SPAD opponents were so useless. But I suspect he hasn't got the *momentum* to win a conker fight in the playground let alone take on Osborne and Crosby in 2020. Luckily Labour had the good sense to make Tom Watson deputy, a top class nasty operator who'll hopefully stick the Tories with their own medicine.



Was that deliberate? It would be something of a consolation if Urban didn't rate the £3 Trot  entryist collective for streetfighting skills.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 11, 2015)

There is talk of over 50 Labour MPs voting to bomb Syria. 

I hope everyone, especially new joiners and affiliates can contact their personal MP to persuade them to oppose the deepening madness.

I believe what made the difference in 2013 was people badgering individual MPs. Finding out who the "wobble" crew are and getting people to contact them using, for example, localised FB groups, might be crucial. What has changed since then? in fact it's worse and even more nuts to bomb.

This is perhaps the first chance for the new intake to flex their muscles.


----------



## DownwardDog (Oct 11, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Was that deliberate? It would be something of a consolation if Urban didn't rate the £3 Trot  entryist collective for streetfighting skills.



All of the good domain names with 'militant' in them were already taken.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 11, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> All of the good domain names with 'militant' in them were already taken.



militantkittens.org is still available if you're into that sort of thing.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 11, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe they can fight the red pepper bandwagon network for the title of _the real voice of hope._


They are not necessarily in contradiction - but RP will advocate for groups to have significant autonomy not get treated like stage armies


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 11, 2015)

labour needs this kind of politician to cheer everyone up! 
Seymour Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 11, 2015)

Rob Ray said:


> militantkittens.org is still available if you're into that sort of thing.



out of curiosity, this came up on a search







wonder if there might be a pact with proletaricat democracy?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> labour needs this kind of politician to cheer everyone up!
> Seymour Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


or like attlee, gaitskell or indeed john smith: labour needs more dead politicians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2015)

Rob Ray said:


> militantkittens.org is still available if you're into that sort of thing.


all of the good names with militant in gone then


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2015)

Puddy_Tat said:


> wonder if there might be a pact with proletaricat demogracy?


 
CFY


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> labour needs this kind of politician to cheer everyone up!
> Seymour Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ah yes, the man whose running mate was often Mike Hunt


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 12, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> ah yes, the man whose running mate was often Mike Hunt


Careful now


----------



## treelover (Oct 12, 2015)

See all the old faces are on the Labour First FB page, Akehurst, even Derek Draper, thought he had dropped out of politics to pursue his counselling career, Draper, a counsellor!


----------



## JHE (Oct 12, 2015)

treelover said:


> See all the old faces are on the Labour First FB page, Akehurst, even Derek Draper, thought he had dropped out of politics to pursue his counselling career, Draper, a counsellor!



He's probably offering his services to poor old Burnham, Cooper, Kendall and assorted other traumatised Labour MPs


----------



## agricola (Oct 12, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> labour needs this kind of politician to cheer everyone up!
> Seymour Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Why?  They already have someone called Woodcock at the head of a splinter movement.


----------



## youngian (Oct 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> There is a website too Momentum: A new kind of politics


Like Progress, Momentum sounds like a team from the Apprentice. In the very unlikely event Momentum even registers with the public, will anyone have any idea what they are for or why they aren't calling themselves the Labour Party? Which is the party Jeremy leads. But his leadership will live or die by his poll ratings and his ability to win elections in the two years. If it goes tits up, no calls to 'mobilise the masses' from pissy grass roots populist groups will save his arse.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2015)

youngian said:


> But his leadership will live or die by his poll ratings and his ability to win elections in the two years..



Really? I didn't think that issues like that bothered the _Corbynjugend _one little bit. His electorate voted him in for his ideological purity, not for what the focus groups of Nuneaton would think.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Really? I didn't think that issues like that bothered the _Corbynjugend _one little bit. His electorate voted him in for his ideological purity, not for what the focus groups of Nuneaton would think.


'ideological purity'?  Please, put down the Dan Hodges and engage a brain. People voted for him because of his _principles_, which is a rather different thing.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't see how the way we choose to describe how Corbyn comes to say and do the things he says and does affects the point, which was that he will be tricky to oust however disastrous he is (and he is).

And I put down Hodges when he mistook glib, mendacious flirting with the centre ground in Manchester for the real thing. Disappointed in the lad.


----------



## andysays (Oct 13, 2015)

belboid said:


> 'ideological purity'?  Please, put down the Dan Hodges and engage a brain. People voted for him because of his _principles_, which is a rather different thing.



Some of them might even have voted for him because they realise that the Labour Party hasn't been doing that well attracting votes and winning elections with the recent approach of "copy the Tories on policy but with a little bit of gentle reassuring rhetoric thrown in", and think that they might actually be more electable, even among "the focus groups of Nuneaton", with a return to some vaguely social-democratic principles.

Crazy talk, obviously...


----------



## sihhi (Oct 13, 2015)

treelover said:


> See all the old faces are on the Labour First FB page, Akehurst, even Derek Draper, thought he had dropped out of politics to pursue his counselling career, Draper, a counsellor!



Aside about the state of the country/Labour. Damian McBride became a manager /assistant to a head teacher at a secondary school, then a senior manager at CAFOD.


----------



## youngian (Oct 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Really? I didn't think that issues like that bothered the _Corbynjugend _one little bit. His electorate voted him in for his ideological purity, not for what the focus groups of Nuneaton would think.


Whatever ideological purity is and whoever the ideological purists are I don't think they were paying much attention to the message. Corbyn and McDonnell put forward a creative Rhineland/Nordic type social democratic economic plan against a load of vapid hot air from his Labour leadership opponents. The sort of vapid hot air which voters in Nuneaton or anywhere else wouldn't understand a word of. And I don't think a party that also gave a huge majority to Tom Watson did so with their head in the clouds.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Really? I didn't think that issues like that bothered the _Corbynjugend _one little bit. His electorate voted him in for his ideological purity, not for what the focus groups of Nuneaton would think.



Corbynjugend? Are you having some sort of break down?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 13, 2015)

youngian said:


> Whatever ideological purity is and whoever the ideological purists are I don't think they were paying much attention to the message. Corbyn and McDonnell put forward a creative Rhineland/Nordic type social democratic economic plan against a load of vapid hot air from his Labour leadership opponents. *Which voters in Nuneaton or anywhere else wouldn't understand a word of.* And I don't think a party that also gave a huge majority to Tom Watson did so with their head in the clouds.



What wouldn't they understand, the social democratic economics or the vapid hot air? If it's the former then I think you are doing people a disservice; if the later than not so surprising given its lack of actual content.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Really? I didn't think that issues like that bothered the _Corbynjugend _one little bit. His electorate voted him in for his ideological purity, not for what the focus groups of Nuneaton would think.


_Corbynjugend_? Even for a new Labour tosser of your ilk, that's a pretty pathetic smear.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Really? I didn't think that issues like that bothered the _Corbynjugend _one little bit. His electorate voted him in for his ideological purity, not for what the focus groups of Nuneaton would think.


Corbynjugend? Dodgy... very dodgy. That says a lot about you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 13, 2015)

belboid said:


> 'ideological purity'?  Please, put down the Dan Hodges and engage a brain. People voted for him because of his _principles_, which is a rather different thing.



I suspect that you'll need to explain "principles" to Maurice.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Corbynjugend_? Even for a new Labour tosser of your ilk, that's a pretty pathetic smear.



I actually joined one of the anti-Corbyn Labour facebook groups to get a real sense of what the specific grievances were. It was really interesting, it was mostly made up of people who were obviously business owners whose profile pictures featured them wearing items of clothing worth a lot more than my monthly salary. A few could articulate the sort of complaints that you would expect from your average Tory - that Corbyn wants to raise taxes, that he is against capitalism and he hates Britain but what was interesting is just how many were obviously motivated by the fact that they seemed to believe and regurgitate whatever slur they had read or heard in the media. Very few actual ideas.

I posed a question as a supporter of the group and someone against Corbyn commenting that while I agreed with everything they said, and thought that Corbyn had to go as soon as possible, 'we' should come up with policies that differentiate Labour 'moderates' from both the Tories and Corbyn. I invited suggestions, and what did I get? A litany of complaints about Corbyn without any actual substance or criticism of his policies let alone articulation of new policies and praise for George Osborne.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I actually joined one of the anti-Corbyn Labour facebook groups to get a real sense of what the specific grievances were. It was really interesting, it was mostly made up of people who were obviously business owners whose profile pictures featured them wearing items of clothing worth a lot more than my monthly salary. A few could articulate the sort of complaints that you would expect from your average Tory - that Corbyn wants to raise taxes, that he is against capitalism and he hates Britain but what was interesting is just how many were obviously motivated by the fact that they seemed to believe and regurgitate whatever slur they had read or heard in the media. Very few actual ideas.
> 
> I posed a question as a supporter of the group and someone against Corbyn commenting that while I agreed with everything they said, and thought that Corbyn had to go as soon as possible, 'we' should come up with policies that differentiate Labour 'moderates' from both the Tories and Corbyn. I invited suggestions, and what did I get? A litany of complaints about Corbyn without any actual substance or criticism of his policies let alone articulation of new policies and praise for George Osborne.



I'm not really surprised. The"moderates"/rightists in my CLP (the backed Kendall, that's how far gone they are!) are similarly bereft of any substantive ideas beyond the usual "let's be more Tory than the Tories". Most of them can't even see why people don't want that.


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## J Ed (Oct 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not really surprised. The"moderates"/rightists in my CLP (the backed Kendall, that's how far gone they are!) are similarly bereft of any substantive ideas beyond the usual "let's be more Tory than the Tories". Most of them can't even see why people don't want that.



It's worse than that, they think that it is the _only thing _that anyone really wants deep down and subsequently they are furious with 'the Trots' for not letting them put their red Tory agenda to the people who are desperate for it.


----------



## youngian (Oct 13, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What wouldn't they understand, the social democratic economics or the vapid hot air?



I was referring to the vapid hot air of Corbyn's leadership contender opponents. I had little idea what Yvette Cooper was talking about, so I don't expect those who aren't left wing political anoraks like me to have much chance


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Corbynjugend? Are you having some sort of break down?


he's been spitting blood since those ungrateful bastards in scotland refused to vote labour(led by jim '9 years in student politics' murphy)


----------



## youngian (Oct 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> A litany of complaints about Corbyn without any actual substance or criticism of his policies let alone articulation of new policies and praise for George Osborne.


Osborne is a magpie and I noticed he advocated using public sector and local government pensions funds to directly invest in regional infrastructure projects. Bad Bolshevism when McDonnell advocates it, centrist common sense when Osborne puts it on the agenda. The question is would Osborne even be going there if Liz Kendall was elected Labour leader?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's worse than that, they think that it is the _only thing _that anyone really wants deep down and subsequently they are furious with 'the Trots' for not letting them put their red Tory agenda to the people who are desperate for it.


I have to admit that the poorly-informed use of the "t" word by the commentator has kept me amused since Corbyn's candidature was announced. Many of them come across as not actually knowing what the word means,


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have to admit that the poorly-informed use of the "t" word by the commentator has kept me amused since Corbyn's candidature was announced. Many of them come across as not actually knowing what the word means,


they know it as a catch all insult for anyone to the left of st. blair. Good company to keep- Gove's fond of using it as an insult too. Except I think he knows exactly what it means. The pob faced cunt


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## sihhi (Oct 13, 2015)

youngian said:


> Osborne is a magpie and I noticed he advocated using public sector and local government pensions funds to directly invest in regional infrastructure projects. Bad Bolshevism when McDonnell advocates it, centrist common sense when Osborne puts it on the agenda. The question is would Osborne even be going there if Liz Kendall was elected Labour leader?



Yes, because capital - making money from money - needs infrastructure.


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## Mation (Oct 15, 2015)

I went to my first local ward meeting this evening and was really encouraged. There were apparently 2, 3, even 4 times the usual number of people there. Several were new members who joined because of Jeremy Corbyn and the possibilities his election might entail. A few were ex-members who'd resigned on a principle (mostly Iraq) and had now re-joined. Some were long-standing members who hadn't previously been active. Just over half were white. Just over half were obviously middle class.

We spent a lot of time - too much, in several people's vocal opinion - hearing from a Labour council cabinet member about how they were going to implement Tory budget cuts (and about how we needed to get out there and doorstep people to explain why we needed to make them). The main response, from several people, was: "why are you doing this?"; "what would happen if you didn't?"; "can you explain the difference between what you're doing and a Tory council?".

The Chair tried to suggest that we shouldn't turn against each other and that it didn't matter who we'd voted for in the leadership contest; the important thing is to get into power [read: never mind the policies]. Several people explained to him (politely) that he was talking bollocks and that we expect to be able to say what we think.

Heh. We reorganised the seating from top table and front-facing rows to a circle, so we could see and hear each other better.

We postponed a vote on a motion (on Trident) we hadn't had sufficient time to discuss and consider (most were against renewal but wanted a proper chance to be very clear about the wording such that it couldn't be used to implement the letter, instead of the spirit, of the law. And we scheduled a future agenda item on Labour Party process, so that we can all understand what happens now, whether we're happy with that and what we can do to make changes.

(When I say we, btw, I mean we who were at the meeting and seemed to have the majority view, rather than we, my people now.)

Nothing incredibly dramatic, but an encouraging beginning. It wasn't boring. It went on long after it was meant to and no-one left (bar the cabinet member). It was worth going.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 15, 2015)

Mation said:


> The main response, from several people, was: "why are you doing this?"; "what would happen if you didn't?"; "can you explain the difference between what you're doing and a Tory council?".



What would happen (if council set an illegal budget) is that the councillors would get disqualified from office, and commissars from central government would get parachuted in to run things.

At one time, councillors were liable to 'surcharge' (i.e. being held personally liable for financial fuck-ups, all very well for the likes of dame shirley porter who could move stuff offshore, but less so for the average councillor who could face personal bankruptcy) - I'm not entirely sure this is still the case.  Fairly sure it was during the ratecapping / "loony left" era in the 80s. (see article on Ted Knight)

One argument is that outright refusal to set a cuts budget would be pointless gesture politics and leave residents worse off than if a labour council implemented cuts in as caring a way as possible.

Another argument is that labour councillors should have the balls to stand up to this shit and tell the government to fuck off.

They did in the 20s in Poplar, and a number of councillors ended up in the clink (although not sure that being sent down doesn't now automatically disbar someone from elected office)







this mural marks the Poplar Rates Rebellion (more here) - something similar happened in Clay Cross (Derbyshire) in the early 70s. 

Apologies for the fairly rushed 'research' here.  It's late.  I'm tired...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2015)

fair play to you, TopCat and Mation


----------



## cantsin (Oct 15, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I actually joined one of the anti-Corbyn Labour facebook groups to get a real sense of what the specific grievances were. It was really interesting, it was mostly made up of people who were obviously business owners whose profile pictures featured them wearing items of clothing worth a lot more than my monthly salary. A few could articulate the sort of complaints that you would expect from your average Tory - that Corbyn wants to raise taxes, that he is against capitalism and he hates Britain but what was interesting is just how many were obviously motivated by the fact that they seemed to believe and regurgitate whatever slur they had read or heard in the media. Very few actual ideas.
> 
> I posed a question as a supporter of the group and someone against Corbyn commenting that while I agreed with everything they said, and thought that Corbyn had to go as soon as possible, 'we' should come up with policies that differentiate Labour 'moderates' from both the Tories and Corbyn. I invited suggestions, and what did I get? A litany of complaints about Corbyn without any actual substance or criticism of his policies let alone articulation of new policies and praise for George Osborne.



Can we go and have look plse ? ( name of group / page ? No " board invasion" type antics, promise)


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## J Ed (Oct 15, 2015)

cantsin said:


> Can we all go and have look plse ? ( name of group / page ? )



Log in to Facebook | Facebook


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## cantsin (Oct 15, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Log in to Facebook | Facebook



thanks - interesting


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## Mation (Oct 15, 2015)

Puddy_Tat said:


> What would happen (if council set an illegal budget) is that the councillors would get disqualified from office, and commissars from central government would get parachuted in to run things.
> 
> At one time, councillors were liable to 'surcharge' (i.e. being held personally liable for financial fuck-ups, all very well for the likes of dame shirley porter who could move stuff offshore, but less so for the average councillor who could face personal bankruptcy) - I'm not entirely sure this is still the case.  Fairly sure it was during the ratecapping / "loony left" era in the 80s. (see article on Ted Knight)
> 
> ...


Thank you - I didn't know about that.  I can't imagine there'd be much appetite for it now.


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## Rob Ray (Oct 16, 2015)

Mation said:


> Thank you - I didn't know about that.  I can't imagine there'd be much appetite for it now.



That tends the be the process, yes. Colin Ward and Ruth Rendell did quite a good job of explaining how the centralisation process was gutting councils as agents of reform back in the '80s.


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## tony.c (Oct 18, 2015)

Well I have received my membership card, an email invitation to submit questions for PMQs, and an invitation to my CLP's General Management Committee meeting. I haven't heard anything from my Ward party yet, so maybe they are defunct now.
I've also received a notice about a public meeting against the proposed new anti-union legislation, with the local MP speaking with TU speakers. It's jointly organised by the CLP and the local Trades Council. It's the first time to my knowledge that the CLP has ever held a public meeting. I will probably go to check out my new comrades.


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## sunn (Oct 18, 2015)

I went to a local Labour social to find out what the local Labour folk were like and to find out what the general feeling was about Corbyn. To my surprise (I live in IDS' constituency) they were all huge Corbyn supporters and massively enthused about his win, I ended up having really good time. Not sure what the CLP is going to be like but I'm going to have a nose around at the next meeting.


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## Brainaddict (Oct 18, 2015)

Puddy_Tat said:


> What would happen (if council set an illegal budget) is that the councillors would get disqualified from office, and commissars from central government would get parachuted in to run things.


Yes, but at the risk of stating something that's probably obvious to everyone on here, if one or two labour councils refused to implement cuts, those councils would have a problem, if hundreds, even thousands of labour councils refused to implement the cuts, the central government would have a problem.

And what the hell is the point of having a national party organisation if you can't co-ordinate that kind of thing?

Admittedly there is a bit of a presentation issue with it, as it pits local democracy against national democracy, and no-one really thinks their local council is very democratic - they are almost defined by their lack of democracy in most people's eyes. So it's not a strategy without problems. But being a bunch of Tories is also not a strategy without problems for the Labour Party, so....


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 18, 2015)

Brainaddict said:


> Yes, but at the risk of stating something that's probably obvious to everyone on here, if one or two labour councils refused to implement cuts, those councils would have a problem, if hundreds, even thousands of labour councils refused to implement the cuts, the central government would have a problem


 
I know what you mean.

Although not sure there are hundreds of labour councils.  Even assuming all the blairites went along with it, they would probably not get this through in those councils where labour is a minority / 'no overall control' administration relying on support from smaller parties.

And quite a few labour councils did stand up to the thatcher government, and the tories used it as justification for stripping even more powers from councils, and peddling the line that labour couldn't be trusted to run things, which to a large extent, the public bought.


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## treelover (Oct 18, 2015)

sunn said:


> I went to a local Labour social to find out what the local Labour folk were like and to find out what the general feeling was about Corbyn. To my surprise (I live in IDS' constituency) they were all huge Corbyn supporters and massively enthused about his win, I ended up having really good time. Not sure what the CLP is going to be like but I'm going to have a nose around at the next meeting.




I think the CLP will be quite different, isn't that where they vote on decisions made by the cabinet members?, here they have charged the maximum council tax for unemployed and disabled people, not sure i want to be with people who agreed to that, if this is the case, they were also too silent on such issues.


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## tony.c (Oct 18, 2015)

treelover said:


> I think the CLP will be quite different, isn't that where they vote on decisions made by the cabinet members?


No CLP is the Constituency Labour Party, ie all the Labour Party members in that constituency. They do not vote on Council decisions. They might discuss council matters and perhaps pass resolutions about something which is happening on the council, but it wouldn't be binding on councillors.
The Labour Group Councillors would discuss matters going on in the Council and on decisions made by the cabinet members, but they will usually go with the guidance of the cabinet members.


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## ice-is-forming (Oct 19, 2015)

My local Labour mp phoned me up today, we've never met or spoken before. He said that he followed my posts on facebook & was very impressed


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## cantsin (Oct 19, 2015)

ice-is-forming said:


> My local Labour mp phoned me up today, we've never met or spoken before. He said that he followed my posts on facebook & was very impressed



wow - what sort of stuff have you been posting as a matter of interest ?


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## emanymton (Oct 19, 2015)

ice-is-forming said:


> My local Labour mp phoned me up today, we've never met or spoken before. He said that he followed my posts on facebook & was very impressed


That's not something to brag about on here if you ask me.


----------



## Coolfonz (Oct 19, 2015)

Mation said:


> I went to my first local ward meeting this evening and was really encouraged. There were apparently 2, 3, even 4 times the usual number of people there. Several were new members who joined because of Jeremy Corbyn and the possibilities his election might entail. A few were ex-members who'd resigned on a principle (mostly Iraq) and had now re-joined. Some were long-standing members who hadn't previously been active. Just over half were white. Just over half were obviously middle class.
> 
> We spent a lot of time - too much, in several people's vocal opinion - hearing from a Labour council cabinet member about how they were going to implement Tory budget cuts (and about how we needed to get out there and doorstep people to explain why we needed to make them). The main response, from several people, was: "why are you doing this?"; "what would happen if you didn't?"; "can you explain the difference between what you're doing and a Tory council?".
> 
> ...



Did you get anything good from the coat rack?


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## ice-is-forming (Oct 19, 2015)

lol. He appreciated my critical thinking and debating skills


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 20, 2015)

Good for Prescott laying into Warner in this piece from last year

"Lord Warner, a career civil servant, was actively involved in advising private healthcare firms who have lucrative contracts in the NHS.

Last year he was the only Labour peer to vote with the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats on proposed NHS regulations to allow companies to bid for almost all health services.

When he was called before a parliamentary select committee to discuss his lobbying as a peer for private healthcare, he said: “The point I’m trying to make is that we do not have constituents. There is not a group of people who have voted for us... We are not elected to represent a particular geographical area and we are not paid a salary.”

But he was nominated by Labour to be one of its peers.

Warner admitted he does not represent the people. Instead he speaks up for the private healthcare industry through his private consultancy firm Sage Advice Ltd"

NHS will charge a fee over my dead body - whatever 'Labour' traitors and private healthcare vultures might think


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## Sprocket. (Oct 20, 2015)

Warner is a dyed in the wool Tory, that's why he got on so well with Blair!


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## Brainaddict (Oct 20, 2015)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> Although not sure there are hundreds of labour councils.  Even assuming all the blairites went along with it, they would probably not get this through in those councils where labour is a minority / 'no overall control' administration relying on support from smaller parties.
> 
> And quite a few labour councils did stand up to the thatcher government, and the tories used it as justification for stripping even more powers from councils, and peddling the line that labour couldn't be trusted to run things, which to a large extent, the public bought.


 With the hundreds/thousands figure I was thinking of town councils and so on too (there are 9000 town and parish councils). Apparently there are 433 'principle authorities', of which Labour control 35%. Political make-up of local councils in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## lazythursday (Nov 3, 2015)

Mation said:


> I went to my first local ward meeting this evening and was really encouraged. There were apparently 2, 3, even 4 times the usual number of people there. Several were new members who joined because of Jeremy Corbyn and the possibilities his election might entail. A few were ex-members who'd resigned on a principle (mostly Iraq) and had now re-joined. Some were long-standing members who hadn't previously been active. Just over half were white. Just over half were obviously middle class.
> 
> We spent a lot of time - too much, in several people's vocal opinion - hearing from a Labour council cabinet member about how they were going to implement Tory budget cuts (and about how we needed to get out there and doorstep people to explain why we needed to make them). The main response, from several people, was: "why are you doing this?"; "what would happen if you didn't?"; "can you explain the difference between what you're doing and a Tory council?".



I went to my first local branch meeting tonight and it was remarkably similar to this. Just over half new members or recent rejoiners including a group of really enthusiastic twentysomethings. And existing members overjoyed to see so many people. Then the meeting dominated by fairly pointless reports from parish and district councillors and a bit of a turf war between them. There was a sense from the newer members that this isn't entirely what we've signed up for... but early days in terms of changing the agenda. Really friendly and welcoming... but a bit frustrating and bureaucratic. It felt part social club, part rusty machinery for winning elections, with not much space left for actual politics. 

I might go along to the constituency meeting and see what that's like as it's on an all-members basis here rather than delegates. At the moment I feel like an observer of a strange new world rather than a party member but perhaps I will be assimilated in due course.


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## TopCat (Nov 4, 2015)

I met fellow new members last night on a tour of Parliament hosted by our MP. All supporters of JC bar the MP. They made a lot of effort to welcome everyone. Some frank chat about deselection.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I met fellow new members last night on a tour of Parliament hosted by our MP. All supporters of JC bar the MP. They made a lot of effort to welcome everyone. Some frank chat about deselection.


did you get taken to the bar?


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## TopCat (Nov 4, 2015)

Th


Pickman's model said:


> did you get taken to the bar?


She took us to a Kurdish reception who were great people. Lots of beer and please do take a beer with you sort of thing.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2015)

no eric joyce offering people out? parliament is not what it was


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## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> no eric joyce offering people out? parliament is not what it was


 no one shooting the prime minister in the grand lobby either - it's terrible to see how parliament's declined


----------



## TopCat (Nov 4, 2015)

Was quite interested in where Charles 1 got tried. Lots of paintings of him and his ilk.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 4, 2015)

You should have asked to see where Guy Fawkes got caught.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2015)

tony.c said:


> You should have asked to see where Guy Fawkes got caught.


surely that cellar was destroyed when they rebuilt the palace of westminster after some victorian bellend managed to a) destroy 600 years worth of fascinating financial records by burning them

and b) burn the whole gaff down


----------



## JimW (Nov 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> surely that cellar was destroyed when they rebuilt the palace of westminster after some victorian bellend managed to a) destroy 600 years worth of fascinating financial records by burning them
> 
> and b) burn the whole gaff down


Stick that in your pipe rolls.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 4, 2015)

Has the BBC's subtitler joined the Labour Party?!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 5, 2015)

Fucking scum and vermin tory cunts:


----------



## Crispy (Nov 5, 2015)

tony.c said:


> View attachment 79116
> Has the BBC's subtitler joined the Labour Party?!


pixels, i'm afraid


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 5, 2015)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Fucking scum and vermin tory cunts:



erg, its horrible to see him taking it seriously, no fucker else does. God bless him for giving it a try but its just a wast of time all round.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 6, 2015)

It's stuff like that which makes me think the salt mines aren't such a bad idea after all.


----------



## DownwardDog (Nov 6, 2015)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Fucking scum and vermin tory cunts:




Has he sat on his glasses? They are all bent to fuck.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 6, 2015)

Crispy said:


> pixels, i'm afraid


Yes, my niece reposted that to me on FB. Turns out it was a spoof on twitter. My apologies. Feel free to unlike that post.
The BBC felt the need to deny they added this subtitle to PMQs yesterday


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 6, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> Has he sat on his glasses? They are all bent to fuck.



If that's all you can see then it's more than glasses you need, be they 'bent to fuck' or otherwise.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2015)

NoXion said:


> It's stuff like that which makes me think the salt mines aren't such a bad idea after all.


60k a year before they have touched expenses and the cunts can't even stop the yaar booing for long enough to make PMQs look a bit less like a fucking charade. You can't even pay the cunts to _pretend _to take us seriously.


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## teqniq (Nov 6, 2015)

Solution


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2015)

teqniq said:


> Solution


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2015)

ah where is Jack Ketch in our hour of need? Him and merlin are sorely needed


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2015)

tony.c said:


> View attachment 79116
> Has the BBC's subtitler joined the Labour Party?!


I note tom watsons upgraded his symbol of love for all that is decent into the big version after I critiscised his tiny enamel pin one on here last week. With his hipster glasses, the cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> tome watsons


tom watson's librarian alter ego?


----------



## teqniq (Nov 6, 2015)

Pickman's model are you saying my suggestion is too flippant or not Baroque enough? 

In all honesty though tbh I'm thinking it's only a question of time before some desperate soul decides they've had enough and opts for something along those lines.

I know there's the stoicism and 'we don't do that sort of thing' here in the UK, but still....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2015)

teqniq said:


> Pickman's model are you saying my suggestion is too flippant or not Baroque enough?
> 
> In all honesty though tbh I'm thinking it's only a question of time before some desperate soul decides they've had enough and opts for something along those lines.
> 
> I know there's the stoicism and 'we don't do that sort of thing' here in the UK, but still....


neither too flippant nor not baroque enough but too quick and not sufficiently painful.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 6, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> Has he sat on his glasses? They are all bent to fuck.



Why is it that there are so many people like this who are so superficial that they cannot get over what they immediately see even when it is of no actual relevance or interest whatsoever?


----------



## teqniq (Nov 6, 2015)

I think it's the absence of anything of any substance to attack that does it, hence all the character assassination bollox in the press.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2015)

teqniq said:


> I think it's the absence of anything of any substance to attack that does it, hence all the character assassination bollox in the press.


and by the Prime Minister. He gave it the 'this ones a trotskyist, that ones a Stalinist and the other is a communist!' somehow apparently unaware that the latter word covers the previous two


----------



## teqniq (Nov 6, 2015)

Yes but soundbite-wise three ists are better than one.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 7, 2015)

Ha! Andrew Fisher suspended from the party. Steptoe standing by him and he'll still work in his office.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 7, 2015)

Bone's take..


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Steptoe standing by him


proof, if it were needed, that the ageist blairite we call Maurice has been stewing in his juices for ages and waiting for a chance to leap in, dagger at the ready. The problem is Maurice, mandleson did you better, previously and with greater panache


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 7, 2015)

So? If I had half Peter's panache I'd still have an egregious surfeit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> proof, if it were needed, that the ageist blairite we call Maurice has been stewing in his juices for ages and waiting for a chance to leap in, dagger at the ready. The problem is Maurice, mandleson did you better, previously and with greater panache



A 3rd-rate Mandelson?

Cuss!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> So? If I had half Peter's panache I'd still have an egregious surfeit.



You don't even have one percent of it, though. That is your tragedy. There is no egregious surfeit, just you - an egregious dogshit.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2015)

Fisher desperation (as if anyone gives a shit) - Corbyn adviser, Andrew Fisher, faces new claim of disloyalty



> Jeremy Corbyn is under mounting pressure to dismiss his policy adviser, Andrew Fisher, as a second, stinging letter of complaint about his past support for candidates from other parties was leaked to the Observer.
> 
> Fisher was suspended by Labour general secretary Iain McNicol on Friday, two weeks after Emily Benn, former parliamentary candidate for Croydon South, lodged a complaint to the party, saying Fisher backed the Class War candidate in her constituency ahead of the general election in May.



However, a few minutes reading of the SA report reveals that it's nonsense and they don't know how to read boring lefty minutes properly. And 'leaked' fffs - you mean publicaly accessible on their site for 6 years.


----------



## oryx (Nov 8, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Ha! Andrew Fisher suspended from the party. Steptoe standing by him and he'll still work in his office.



Steptoe? Are you referring to Jeremy Corbyn and if so perhaps you could enlighten us on his perceived likeness to Steptoe?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2015)

oryx said:


> Steptoe? Are you referring to Jeremy Corbyn and if so perhaps you could enlighten us on his perceived likeness to Steptoe?


He's over 60. Maurice isn't. It's hilarious.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2015)

oryx said:


> Steptoe? Are you referring to Jeremy Corbyn and if so perhaps you could enlighten us on his perceived likeness to Steptoe?


Steptoe is on Drama on Freeview - in one episode this week, he rails at Atlee's government 'offering sops to the working class to stop a revolution' - from a mate on Twitter.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2015)

Steptoe was a classic tory _fuck you jack_ type though. That's why his son's yearning to get in the wider collective stuff he saw going on all around him  - or more accurately, his failure to do so, only reinforced his old mans toryism.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Steptoe was a classic tory _fuck you jack_ type though. That's why his son's yearning to get in the wider collective stuff he saw going on all around him  - or more accurately, his failure to do so, only reinforced his old mans toryism.


there's a really bleak episode where he nearly leaves, but is thwarted by his old man at the last minute. The defeated look on Corbett's face...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> there's a really bleak episode where he nearly leaves, but is thwarted by his old man at the last minute. The defeated look on Corbett's face...


That could be any episode really...there was a really bad one where he was off with a middle class girl, the world was going to open up to him...it was really happening...and...


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> That could be any episode really...there was a really bad one where he was off with a middle class girl, the world was going to open up to him...it was really happening...and...


yeah, that's the one i was thinking of. they were fantastic actors


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 8, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> So? If I had half Peter's panache I'd still have an egregious surfeit.



Didn't he shave his panache off yonks ago?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 8, 2015)

oryx said:


> Steptoe? Are you referring to Jeremy Corbyn and if so perhaps you could enlighten us on his perceived likeness to Steptoe?



You could always use google images, but here's a starter list: headgear, beard, demeanour, vest, snarl.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 8, 2015)

As one of the voters in Oldham pointed out, he's more of a geriatric hippie than a rag and bone man.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> You could always use google images, but here's a starter list: headgear, beard, demeanour, vest, snarl.


You mean he doesn't always wear the uniform of business?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> As one of the voters in Oldham pointed out, he's more of a geriatric hippie than a rag and bone man.


The one who said "she hangs on every word of Farage"?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2015)

All his fashion chatter...topical....


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 8, 2015)

brogdale said:


> The one who said "she hangs on every word of Farage"?



Yes. One of the voters you would have thought Labour need to win back.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Yes. One of the voters you would have thought Labour need to win back.


In the seat where they have a 55% of the vote and where the UKIP vote came from the lib-dems and tories?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 8, 2015)

Wherever the UKIP vote stopped or may stop Labour MPs getting elected.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 17, 2015)

With the Paris attack giving him the opportunity Cameron is going to re-introduce a vote in the Commons for airstrikes in Syria, and you'd have to be naive not to think that some Labour MPs will back it even if the Shadow Cabinet doesn't.

What will/are those of you who are (new) members going to do? I'm not asking this to score some political point but because this looks likely to be the first issue that where Corbyn is going to face a rebellion from the PLP and I'm genuinely interested in hearing how (new) members are going to deal with it.


----------



## Shirl (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm a new member, or rather on old active member who has returned.
I'm staying with Corbyn because I believe he's right even though I want to nuke the bastard Isis.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 17, 2015)

What Shirl said.
I think my MP will back Corbyn so it won't be an issue in my CLP.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> You could always use google images, but here's a starter list: headgear, beard, demeanour, vest, snarl.



I cld never really see myself joining the LP , ( despite N Devon CLP coming out strongly in favour of Corbo ) , but a mate's keen to go along and have a look, and the thought of getting involved to try and edge your sort out of the majority in the LP wld be a genuine incentive .

Not sure how constructive it would be coming face to face with you all giving it the 'steptoe' type shit on a regular basis, but suspect you save all that kind of stuff for your keyboard heroics anyway tbh .


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 17, 2015)

cantsin said:


> I cld never really see myself joining the LP , ( despite N Devon CLP coming out strongly in favour of Corbo ) , but a mate of mine's keen to go along and have a look, and the thought of getting involved to try and drive wasters like you out of the LP wld be a genuine incentive .
> 
> Not sure how constructive it would be coming face to face with your sort giving it the 'steptoe' type shit on a regular basis, but suspect you save all that kind of stuff for your keyboard heroics anyway tbh .



Not a member; I'm only a £3 4.5%er. I rant about Corbyn a lot IRL but then the majority of party members I know agree with me.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Not a member; I'm only a £3 4.5%er. I rant about Corbyn a lot IRL but then the majority of party members I know agree with me.


That's the non-voting members?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 17, 2015)

Don't follow, sorry.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2015)

Ah

_the majority of party members I know_


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Don't follow, sorry.


Fuck off


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 17, 2015)

And a pleasant evening to you as well.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Not a member; I'm only a £3 4.5%er. I rant about Corbyn a lot IRL but then the majority of party members I know agree with me.



with crass, ageist 'steptoe' type stuff ?

can't see it myself, we'd all fall out, it wld get awk.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 17, 2015)

cantsin said:


> with crass, ageist 'steptoe' type stuff ?
> 
> can't see it myself, we'd all fall out, it wld get awk.



There really is a lot of anger about the resurgence of the left outside of the PLP, you know. Worse things are said than that Corbyn resembles a decrepit junk dealer.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2015)

Come feb, when nothing is going on - you'll be asking yourself _why did i bother?_


----------



## agricola (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Not a member; I'm only a £3 4.5%er. I rant about Corbyn a lot IRL but then the majority of party members I know agree with me.



A £3 Liz Kendall supporter?  Does that mean that your opinion shouldn't count, and didn't?


----------



## J Ed (Nov 17, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck off



I wish I could like this post ten times over. Maurice Picarda is a risible cunt.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Nov 17, 2015)

agricola said:


> A £3 Liz Kendall supporter?  Does that mean that your opinion shouldn't count, and didn't?



It certainly wasn't the best £3 I have ever spent. I'd originally planned to vote for Cooper as a unifying figure.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It certainly wasn't the best £3 I have ever spent. I'd originally planned to vote for Cooper as a unifying figure.



No one gives a shit what a hard of thinking idiot like you thinks or intended to do.


----------



## Jimmy Turr (Nov 17, 2015)

I was last in the LP in about 1987. Are the ward meetings still as excruciatingly boring?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Don't follow, sorry.


on your way then


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> I was last in the LP in about 1987. Are the ward meetings still as excruciatingly boring?


i'm told they're worse


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It certainly wasn't the best £3 I have ever spent. I'd originally planned to vote for Cooper as a unifying figure.


and you failed at even that simple task


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2015)

agricola said:


> A £3 Liz Kendall supporter?  Does that mean that your opinion shouldn't count, and didn't?


a £3 kendall supporter? he's a poundshop blairite shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Not a member; I'm only a £3 4.5%er. I rant about Corbyn a lot IRL but then the majority of party members I know agree with me.


millions of pms of support


----------



## Jimmy Turr (Nov 17, 2015)

I was always struck by the apolitical nature of much of the canvassing fodder. Somebody I'm acquainted with has just rejoined after a long absence in a fit of Corbyn mania. She has no politics at all beyond, 'Isn't it just awful what Cameron's doing, they're all heartless, Labour can't do any worse etc etc.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> I was always struck by the apolitical nature of much of the canvassing fodder. Somebody I'm acquainted with has just rejoined after a long absence in a fit of Corbyn mania. She has no politics at all beyond, 'Isn't it just awful what Cameron's doing, they're all heartless, Labour can't do any worse etc etc.'


one of the more politically literate members then. she should watch out or she may well find herself parachuted into a.safe labour seat.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 18, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> I was last in the LP in about 1987. Are the ward meetings still as excruciatingly boring?





Pickman's model said:


> i'm told they're worse


If they happen at all, I haven't heard anything from my local ward so I guess it's defunct. I do receive email invitations to the CLP GMC meetings (thanks articul8!) but haven't taken them up.
I haven't really felt enthused to actually do anything yet, but will probably get involved in the Spring coming up to the London Mayoral election (now that I'm old I don't like going out after dark).


----------



## teqniq (Nov 18, 2015)

Some unnamed shadow cabinet minister was quoted in the Indy yesterday as saying Corbyn was a f**king disgrace presumably over recent events either in France or Syria. So more shit stirring by the press/fun and games in the plp.


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

teqniq said:


> Some unnamed shadow cabinet minister was quoted in the Indy yesterday as saying Corbyn was a f**king disgrace presumably over recent events either in France or Syria. So more shit stirring by the press/fun and games in the plp.


TBF it could easily have been in putting the Chief Newt Fancier into a senior role in defence?????????
That is a disgrace


----------



## cantsin (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> TBF it could easily have been in putting the Chief Newt Fancier into a senior role in defence?????????
> *That is a disgrace[*/QUOTE]


----------



## cantsin (Nov 18, 2015)

why ?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2015)

Livingstone on C4 News. Fucking hell, stop digging FFS.

Labour falling to bits, live on-air.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Livingstone on C4 News. Fucking hell, stop digging FFS.
> 
> Labour falling to bits, live on-air.



What's he saying?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2015)

NoXion said:


> What's he saying?


That the other guy started it...and down where he comes from, in S.London, this is how we carry on m8.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2015)

what did the other guy say anyway?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2015)

killer b said:


> what did the other guy say anyway?


He'd claimed that Livingstone wasn't up to the job of being co-convener of the party's trident review committee.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2015)

_"I'm not sure Ken knows anything about defence. It will only damage our credibility amongst those that do and who care about defence."_

Seems a bit of a, erm, nuclear response from Livingstone for a fairly mildly critical statement. Is there something else going on?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2015)

killer b said:


> _"I'm not sure Ken knows anything about defence. It will only damage our credibility amongst those that do and who care about defence."_
> 
> Seems a bit of a, erm, nuclear response from Livingstone for a fairly mildly critical statement. Is there something else going on?


Intra-party factional war?


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2015)

Well yeah, but I meant did Jones say more than was reported? Just seems a bafflingly extreme response, with an entirely predictable result.


----------



## agricola (Nov 18, 2015)

killer b said:


> _"I'm not sure Ken knows anything about defence. It will only damage our credibility amongst those that do and who care about defence."_
> 
> Seems a bit of a, erm, nuclear response from Livingstone for a fairly mildly critical statement. Is there something else going on?



One would imagine having large swathes of the PLP using any excuse (however inappropriate) and going to any lengths to have a pop at their leader and a media who have never given Corbyn anything remotely like a fair hearing, has probably resulted in quite a bit of stress building up - hence today's events.   Of course once it happened it was always going to be seized on and ran with by all concerned, just like the _"he didn't sing"_, _"he didn't bow at the correct angle"_ and "_he doesn't think it is a good idea to once again do what we have been doing in the middle east to such spectacular effect_" have been.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2015)

We mustn't forget that Livingstone is also a massive gobshite, mind.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2015)

agricola said:


> One would imagine having large swathes of the PLP using any excuse (however inappropriate) and going to any lengths to have a pop at their leader and a media who have never given Corbyn anything remotely like a fair hearing, has probably resulted in quite a bit of stress building up - hence today's events.   Of course once it happened it was always going to be seized on and ran with by all concerned, just like the _"he didn't sing"_, _"he didn't bow at the correct angle"_ and "_he doesn't think it is a good idea to once again do what we have been doing in the middle east to such spectacular effect_" have been.


Yeah, but Livingstone handed it to them on a plate, didn't he?


----------



## kebabking (Nov 18, 2015)

cantsin said:


> why ?



two reasons leap to mind - firstly the comedic ineptness of the appointment. he puts his shadow defence spokeswoman in charge of a wideranging defence and security policy review and then some weeks later appoints someone with limited personal skills as far as the rest of the PLP is concerned to 'co-author' the review without telling the person he'd appointed in the first place. she finds out via twitter.

impressive. 

secondly, the appointment itself is both inept and clumsy. the 'review' by Labours Defence team is a sop to the PLP, it will merely be a submission to the Policy Forum which Corbyn intends to pack with his supporters who will reject most of it and ignore the rest. appointing Livingstone to 'co author' it, despite him having no political background in defence or foreign policy, won't change the outcome of the policy forum, but it will make the submission disjointed, offends - even further - those wthin the PLP who don't like Corbyn and his friends, and loses the support of those who cling - bizarrely - to the hope the Corbyn can be persuaded to take their views.

equally impressive.

Livingstone then goes and makes some stunningly offensive, personal remarks about Jones and refuses to apologise. its a hat trick.


----------



## agricola (Nov 18, 2015)

killer b said:


> We mustn't forget that Livingstone is also a massive gobshite, mind.



He is, though not on the same level as Gapes, Mann, Danczuk and the rest.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 18, 2015)

kebabking said:


> two reasons leap to mind - firstly the comedic ineptness of the appointment. he puts his shadow defence spokeswoman in charge of a wideranging defence and security policy review and then some weeks later appoints someone with limited personal skills as far as the rest of the PLP is concerned to 'co-author' the review without telling the person he'd appointed in the first place. she finds out via twitter.
> 
> impressive.
> 
> ...


He apologised about the mental health comments, but fuck me, what a tool


----------



## agricola (Nov 18, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but Livingstone handed it to them on a plate, didn't he?



He did, but he was always going to have that exposed - just as any slip, or perceived slip, or even coming out with something that is demonstrably sensible, by Corbyn or his supporters will be.


----------



## kebabking (Nov 18, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> He apologised about the mental health comments, but fuck me, what a tool



he apologised _eventually_, after Corbyn had to lean very hard on him. he did refuse to apologise earlier when the BBC let him know that his comments could be regarded as somewhat outside the rough and tumble because of Jones's history of depression - that was the point at which he gave the 'if someones rude to me...' thing. he's a cock.

he could have got away with it by immediately coughing and saying 'oh shit, sorry - really insensitive, apologise profusely, stupid thing to say' etc... but he pushed that opportunity away with both hands.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2015)

agricola said:


> He did, but he was always going to have that exposed - just as any slip, or perceived slip, or even coming out with something that is demonstrably sensible, by Corbyn or his supporters will be.


Yeah, yeah...but by fuck he came across as such a complete cunt.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 18, 2015)

Kevan Jones likes saying 'the fact of the matter', doesn't he?


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

cantsin said:


> why ?


Ken, for all his skills as a leader in London, both the GLC and this incarnation, has absolutely no experience inb world affairs - I cite the example of his "cheap oil deal" with Venezuela as the most obvious example of his lamb to the slaughter lack of experience in this area
War, as clauswitz re-quoted, not sure where from, but still valid, is diplomacy by stronger/other means (before the barrage of corrections arrive I realise that's mangled, but hopefully you will accept the sense remains...)
He really is the wrong man for this


----------



## J Ed (Nov 18, 2015)

Yes I understand now, tell the AmeriKKKans, Chine$e and the Ru$$$ians that they must adopt (re)-adopt socialism or they get the workers' bomb


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Ken, for all his skills as a leader in London, both the GLC and this incarnation, has absolutely no experience inb world affairs - I cite the example of his "cheap oil deal" with Venezuela as the most obvious example of his lamb to the slaughter lack of experience in this area
> War, as clauswitz re-quoted, not sure where from, but still valid, is diplomacy by stronger/other means (before the barrage of corrections arrive I realise that's mangled, but hopefully you will accept the sense remains...)
> He really is the wrong man for this



What do you think qualifies someone for this role?


----------



## J Ed (Nov 18, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> What do you think qualifies someone for this role?


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

I had not read the other comments prior to replying to cantsin ( rather hubristic name there mate!!) but see that the shallow understanding of the Holy Koran and even more limited understanding of the nature of Bangla/Sylhetti politics allowed him to back the neo-gangsterism of Lutfur Rahman _ I don't want that sort of idiotic cronyism deployed as part of  policy anywhere other than in that twats newt pond


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> What do you think qualifies someone for this role?


Some moral compass and a rather less developed eye for the main chance


----------



## teqniq (Nov 18, 2015)

So that's definitely a 'no' then. Not even for the lolz?


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


>



Is Kissinger wearing  seatbelt there?

On the plus he looks fucking close to death.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Some moral compass and a rather less developed eye for the main chance



Where in Parliament do you honestly expect find someone with any sort of "moral compass"?


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


>


Can we deal with the 21st c
Admittedly, that twats a criminal of more than one century......
I still don't make Ken an international smartypants


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> Where in Parliament do you honestly expect find someone with any sort of "moral compass"?


So, lets make no effort at all then?
If they are all such lying piles of shite, why don't you stand
Maybe you'll make a difference


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> So, lets make no effort at all then?
> If they are all such lying piles of shite, why don't you stand
> Maybe you'll make a difference



I don't know why you're got such a bee in your bonnet about Ken when the rest of them are arguably far far worse.


----------



## Tankus (Nov 18, 2015)

It's all a Milgrams experiment ......Corbyns a psychological plant ...... pushing and twisting them to see how and who will break ....there are men in white lab coats hidden in the toilets taking notes... 30 years in the planning ...to see just how much disillusionment ,humiliation, and disbelief that a socialist can take .


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> So, lets make no effort at all then?
> If they are all such lying piles of shite, why don't you stand
> Maybe you'll make a difference



I don't know why you're got such a bee in your bonnet about Ken when the rest of them are arguably far far worse.


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> I don't know why you're got such a bee in your bonnet about Ken when the rest of them are arguably far far worse.


The current leadership of the Labour party at least are honestly commited to the welfare of the people
Ken jsutb likes the idea of KenSupremo as a world leader/emperor


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> The current leadership of the Labour party at least are honestly commited to the welfare of the people
> Ken jsutb likes the idea of KenSupremo as a world leader/emperor



Corbyn's wet a plonker. This attack in Paris was his opportunity to stake his place. He shrinked from responsibility. He just wants to go back to his allotment. He's not a bad person, just not a leader in any shape or form.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

hipipol said:


> The current leadership of the Labour party at least are honestly commited to the welfare of the people
> Ken jsutb likes the idea of KenSupremo as a world leader/emperor



Corbyn's wet a plonker. This attack in Paris was his opportunity to stake his place. He shrinked from responsibility. He just wants to go back to his allotment. He's not a bad person, just not a leader in any shape or form.


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> Corbyn's wet a plonker. This attack in Paris was his opportunity to stake his place. He shrinked from responsibility. He just wants to go back to his allotment. He's not a bad person, just not a leader in any shape or form.


If I needed someone to lead the University Moralist Debating team, he'd be my first choice, mas a front rank, front line leader....he's a stop gap...
sure he is well aware of this..


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 18, 2015)

I'm well up for a pot of his jam mind.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

Great men, that's what we need. More great men.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 19, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> He's not a bad person, just not a leader in any shape or form.



Mr anarchist needs a leader.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

sunnysidedown said:


> Mr anarchist needs a leader.



Who are you?


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

Also, wtf? How hasn't he 'staked his place' on Paris? He's clearly staked his place which - if the polling someone posted above is anything to go by - is actually substantially closer to the British people than either the government, the hawks on his own benches or the press.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 19, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> Who are you?



Existentialism is so 1999


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

(Actually it wasn't above, it was in the islamic state thread )



brogdale said:


> Straw in the wind...






brogdale said:


> This Survation poll also contains this finding; only 15% support for uni/bi-lateral bombing...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

killer b said:


> Also, wtf? How hasn't he 'staked his place' on Paris? He's clearly staked his place which - if the polling someone posted above is anything to go by - is actually substantially closer to the British people than either the government, the hawks on his own benches or the press.



This was an opportunity to show leadership. He bottled it.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

How?


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

How might he have 'shown leadership'? how has he failed? I don't get it.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

Does he need to emote more?


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

killer b said:


> How might he have 'shown leadership'? how has he failed? I don't get it.



As a lefty pacifist he need strong words, a speech, something. Instead he got poked from pillar to post about shooting terrorists. He's behaving like a victim.

Remember that statement Livingston made after the London attacks? He should have learned from that.


----------



## Zabo (Nov 19, 2015)

Campbell was on the radio tonight given his take on mental health - now he's an advocate. What I Would like to know is: was he suffering from depression when he was Tone's best mate and advisor on Iraq or was he just simply deranged?

Speaking of whom. I haven't heard a peep from 'Our Tone' during the recent terrorist attacks?

Hmm...


----------



## teqniq (Nov 19, 2015)

*sounds of large pockets of natural gas dispelling*


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

Corbyn's done. He's unlikely to come back from this weak performance. His job isn't just about being correct, he's a leader. That includes leading.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> As a lefty pacifist he need strong words, a speech, something. Instead he got poked from pillar to post about shooting terrorists. He's behaving like a victim.
> 
> Remember that statement Livingston made after the London attacks? He should have learned from that.


I don't remember the statement Livingstone made after the London attacks, no.

I dunno if you've noticed, but the knives are out for Corbyn - do you really think if he'd nailed a better speech he'd have got more sympathetic coverage? He's a friend of terrorists, an appeaser (so the story goes) - that's the story they were going with, whatever he said.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

killer b said:


> I don't remember the statement Livingstone made after the London attacks, no.
> 
> I dunno if you've noticed, but the knives are out for Corbyn.



No need to patronise.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

> I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.
> 
> That isnt an ideology, it isnt even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I?m proud to be the mayor of that city.
> 
> ...



That is the sort of thing a lefty politician should come out with. 

Instead of being prodded for awkward responses to daft questions.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

Hollande played a blinder too. He knew the right would jump at this opportunity and he outflanked them. Corbyn hid.

I remember him saying some decent sounding words during on the TV debates to that angry fat Sky anchor. He could have done similar. He bottled it.

Stick to yer jam making.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2015)

Ken Livingstone is definitely someone corbyn should be looking to for inspiration and guidance this week.

Oh.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 19, 2015)

killer b said:


> Ken Livingstone is definitely someone corbyn should be looking to for inspiration and guidance this week.
> 
> Oh.



He's weak and doesn't wish to fight. Ken did so much better.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 19, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Ken, for all his skills as a leader in London, both the GLC and this incarnation, has absolutely no experience inb world affairs - I cite the example of his "cheap oil deal" with Venezuela as the most obvious example of his lamb to the slaughter lack of experience in this area
> War, as clauswitz re-quoted, not sure where from, but still valid, is diplomacy by stronger/other means (before the barrage of corrections arrive I realise that's mangled, but hopefully you will accept the sense remains...)
> He really is the wrong man for this



so who would you suggest Corbo puts in there, bearing in mind the first / most important role is as counterbalance to the pro trident Angela Eagle ?

Despite his occasional daft episodes ( which can obviously be damaging, and need stamping on quick, as JC did yday ) , Kens a wily operator, tough as an old boot, won't fold in the face of the inevitable press vitriol, but does actually compromise ( backslide ) when push comes to shove : ie : good, slippery politician. 

None of which will advance the cause of world peace in any meaniginful way, but i just dont see who the more viable options are, in the context of the Corbo programme, such as it is ?


----------



## agricola (Nov 19, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> Hollande played a blinder too. He knew the right would jump at this opportunity and he outflanked them. Corbyn hid.
> 
> I remember him saying some decent sounding words during on the TV debates to that angry fat Sky anchor. He could have done similar. He bottled it.
> 
> Stick to yer jam making.



er - lets see what happens to him after the election.  Personally, I think Hollande will get the same kicking he was going to get before the attacks happened.

As for Corbyn, everything he has come out with since the attacks has been sensible - the opposition to "shoot to kill" (which doesn't mean what various MPs and the commentariat have been trying to insist it means), the role that Western policy has played in these attacks and the rise of IS (which even Blair admitted, before such opinions became traitorous), and the questionable nature of further big cuts to the Police in light of the attacks (something which provoked the PM to utter that odd statement about a 500% increase in community policing in London yesterday).  The one misstep he made was cancelling his speech due to take place on the day after the attacks, the leaked portions of which were unarguably correct.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 19, 2015)

I attended first ward meeting tonight. Six people there, very welcoming. Ranged from 80 plus to about seventy years of age then down to me. Full constituency meeting next week.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 19, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I attended first ward meeting tonight. Six people there, very welcoming. Ranged from 80 plus to about seventy years of age then down to me.


Was it quorate?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 20, 2015)

tony.c said:


> Was it quorate?


Not sure, 71 members in ward. No votes on anything anyway.


----------



## tony.c (Nov 20, 2015)

Probably not then unless you were the seventh, it used to need 10% of ward members present to be quorate iirc. A lot of the wards only got 2-3 members at meetings when I was last a member 12 years ago.


----------



## hipipol (Nov 20, 2015)

cantsin said:


> so who would you suggest Corbo puts in there, bearing in mind the first / most important role is as counterbalance to the pro trident Angela Eagle ?
> 
> Despite his occasional daft episodes ( which can obviously be damaging, and need stamping on quick, as JC did yday ) , Kens a wily operator, tough as an old boot, won't fold in the face of the inevitable press vitriol, but does actually compromise ( backslide ) when push comes to shove : ie : good, slippery politician.
> 
> None of which will advance the cause of world peace in any meaniginful way, but i just dont see who the more viable options are, in the context of the Corbo programme, such as it is ?


Well when drowning it is unadvisable to have a shark dumped in the pool with you in the belief its presence will cause you to thresh faster and maybe save yourself
Ken, and I am very grateful for what he achieved when in power in London, is very much an old school cronyist who cannot help but surround him self with vassals to bully and undermine his supposed colleagues - bit like putting the Hells Angels in charge of security at a festival - and we know how that ended....


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 20, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Well when drowning it is unadvisable to have a shark dumped in the pool with you in the belief its presence will cause you to thresh faster and maybe save yourself
> Ken, and I am very grateful for what he achieved when in power in London, is very much an old school cronyist who cannot help but surround him self with vassals to bully and undermine his supposed colleagues - bit like putting the Hells Angels in charge of security at a festival - and we know how that ended....



Well Corbyn as Jagger is at least novel in terms of the comparisons being drawn.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## andysays (Nov 20, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Well Corbyn as Jagger is at least novel in terms of the comparisons being drawn.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



John McDonnell as Keith?


----------



## cantsin (Nov 20, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Well when drowning it is unadvisable to have a shark dumped in the pool with you in the belief its presence will cause you to thresh faster and maybe save yourself
> Ken, and I am very grateful for what he achieved when in power in London, is very much an old school cronyist who cannot help but surround him self with vassals to bully and undermine his supposed colleagues - bit like putting the Hells Angels in charge of security at a festival - and we know how that ended....



and tbf, it's easy to always focus on Altamont, but what about all the other events / happening they kept in nice vibey order ?


----------



## andysays (Nov 20, 2015)

Those of you who are joining should perhaps spare a thought for those who are leaving...

Corbyn critic Robert Webb announces he has left Labour


> Robert Webb says he has cancelled his standing order but still cares


----------



## mk12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Won't somebody think of the Oxbridge educated millionaire liberals!


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2015)

mk12 said:


> Won't somebody think of the Oxbridge educated millionaire liberals!



Tirelessly building their 'ethical personal brand' off other people's struggles while not risking arrest 'just for journalism.'


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm not sure if Robert Webb has an ethical personal brand does he?


----------



## seventh bullet (Nov 20, 2015)

mk12 said:


> Won't somebody think of the Oxbridge educated millionaire liberals!



Hello stranger.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure if Robert Webb has an ethical personal brand does he?



Possibly not, but I've no sympathy for him, personally. He's been bashing Corbyn over and over again and then leaves in a huff because Corbyn's supporters have returned the favour. When Old Labour members were leaving or being sidelined because they didn't fit Blairite ideas did he complain then about people being pushed out for having the wrong opinions?

Yet he publicly spits his dummy out because a supposedly socialist party has become too socialist for him.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

Were you trying to shoehorn Penny in? Fucking hell.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure if Robert Webb has an ethical personal brand does he?


Breaking: The half of a comedy duo that never gets asked on panel shows is leaving a party blah de blah. 

He should have been expelled for being a whining twat.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> Were you trying to shoehorn Penny in? Fucking hell.



I've no regard for any of that Oxbridge bubble. None of them. If his type didn't complain about Old Labour people being pushed out or leaving the party because they felt sidelined and his type didn't stand up for them then, they have zero right to whine about how Labour has then shifted too far left for them. Perhaps Labour in socialist form was never their natural political home to start with and it's no longer their plaything now.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm not sure what Laurie Penny has to do with any of that? Why bring her up now?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure what Laurie Penny has to do with any of that? Why bring her up now?



Because that whole Oxbridge bubble took a socialist party, made it something it was never meant to be, pushed out those who wished otherwise and now start throwing their toys out of the pram when that party democratically starts to shift back where it was always meant to be in the first place. How many of them stood up when Blair and his cronies began turning Labour into Tory-lite, elbowed out people within the party who didn't go along with it and sidelined those they couldn't get rid of? Did they argue that point of principle then? Did they mind when those inconvenient old lefties either left or were hamstrung?

Blairism saw Labour desert its traditional membership. They never abandoned Labour, Labour abandoned them. And they did that with not only the consent but also the connivance of the very type who whining about Corbyn now. Is it any real surprise that there's a certain lack of sympathy for Webb and his ilk generally?


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

what's any of that got to do with Laurie Penny?


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

oh yeah.

fuck all.

You've a whole thread to obsess over her, no need to bring it here too.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Because that whole Oxbridge bubble took a socialist party, made it something it was never meant to be, pushed out those who wished otherwise and now start throwing their toys out of the pram when that party democratically starts to shift back where it was always meant to be in the first place. How many of them stood up when Blair and his cronies began turning Labour into Tory-lite, elbowed out people within the party who didn't go along with it and sidelined those they couldn't get rid of? Did they argue that point of principle then? Did they mind when those inconvenient old lefties either left or were hamstrung?
> 
> Blairism saw Labour desert its traditional membership. They never abandoned Labour, Labour abandoned them. And they did that with not only the consent but also the connivance of the very type who whining about Corbyn now. Is it any real surprise that there's a certain lack of sympathy for Webb and his ilk generally?


The people left were oxbridge bubble people. Laurie penny has never been a labour person though (i don't mean in terms of ideology, i mean in terms of having the bottle to be one). That's just a generalised rage thing with a mis-telling of a history that never was, i think.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> what's any of that got to do with Laurie Penny?



Because she's one of that bubble, with Webb, Helen Lewis, Toynbee and the rest of them. Their sort ruined Labour, turned it into something it was never meant to be, regarded it as their toy to play with and are now throwing wobblers when those nasty old lefties (along with a great many other people) decided they wanted their party back. They seem like they'd rather burn Labour down and bag its ashes rather than surrender it to the democratic will of its members who voted an old leftie back in in the first place.

Are you seriously wondering why old lefties might have something against them and lack sympathy for their type?


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

no, that's not what I'm wondering. I'm wondering why you've decided to treat us to your standard Penny rant on a thread that has nothing to do with her.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

I mean. she's basically a pretty insignificant liberal journalist who'd love it if everything was about her. This isn't. Why help her with that aim?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> no, that's not what I'm wondering. I'm wondering why you've decided to treat us to your standard Penny rant on a thread that has nothing to do with her.



It was one example of a wider trend. Simple. The kind of people who are throwing wobblers about Corbyn and the old left reclaiming what should have been their party. I've no time for any of them, especially not those like Webb who develop a thin skin about being treated harshly when he's been insulting Corbyn since Corbyn was voted in. Their hypocrisy on this and their disdain for a democratic decision unless it's a decision they want is palpable. 

If Labour isn't their natural home then they can do what so many old-school socialists did during the Blairite era. They can leave.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2015)

Balls, it's just that someone writing the words 'oxbridge liberal' are like pavlov ringing his bell for you - you vomit out the standard penny-hate regardless of what's being discussed. It's fucking tedious.


----------



## Jimmy Turr (Nov 20, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> Because she's one of that bubble, with Webb, Helen Lewis, Toynbee and the rest of them. Their sort ruined Labour, turned it into something it was never meant to be, regarded it as their toy to play with and are now throwing wobblers when those nasty old lefties (along with a great many other people) decided they wanted their party back. They seem like they'd rather burn Labour down and bag its ashes rather than surrender it to the democratic will of its members who voted an old leftie back in in the first place.
> 
> Are you seriously wondering why old lefties might have something against them and lack sympathy for their type?



The Blairites were more in line with what Labour was always supposed to be-a pragmatic electoral party designed to try and win and govern within the prevailing political and economic consensus-than Corbyn, who is currently going against the grain.  I'd guess that there are plenty of Oxbridge types among Corbyn supporters and many working class members (or non-Oxbridge types anyway) who have misgivings about the project (such as it exists.)

There has never been a 'good old socialist Labour party,' and despite a mass working class membership it has always propelled Oxbridge types to the fore.


----------



## Jimmy Turr (Nov 20, 2015)

killer b said:


> I mean. she's basically a pretty insignificant liberal journalist who'd love it if everything was about her. This isn't. Why help her with that aim?


A small minority did try to say this on that two million post thread obsessing about her.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Nov 20, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> The Blairites were more in line with what Labour was always supposed to be-a pragmatic electoral party designed to try and win and govern within the prevailing political and economic consensus-than Corbyn, who is currently going against the grain.  I'd guess that there are plenty of Oxbridge types among Corbyn supporters and many working class (or non-Oxbridge types anyway) who have misgivings about the project (such as it exists.)
> 
> There has never been a 'good old socialist Labour party,' and despite a mass working class membership it has always propelled Oxbridge types to the fore.


And one plus one makes three.


----------



## Jimmy Turr (Nov 20, 2015)

Furthermore, while the Blairites did abandon Labour's traditional supporter base, they did so in full knowledge that enough of that base would continue to vote Labour for want of an alternative. Those who fell into apathy or went over for a time to the BNP were, in their eyes, worth sacrificing for the continued support of 'Middle Britain.'

It all went with their vision of a society where the old working class should aspire to be a pale version of the middle class, and those at the very bottom content themselves with whatever crumbs come their way (and killing and maiming each other from time to time.)


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Nov 20, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> Furthermore, while the Blairites did abandon Labour's traditional supporter base, they did so in full knowledge that enough of that base would continue to vote Labour for want of an alternative. Those who fell into apathy or went over for a time to the BNP were, in their eyes, worth sacrificing for the continued support of 'Middle Britain.'
> 
> It all went with their vision of a society where the old working class should aspire to be a pale version of the middle class, and those at the very bottom content themselves with whatever crumbs come their way (and killing and maiming each other from time to time.)


Have you thought of taking up writing science fiction stories?


----------



## Jimmy Turr (Nov 20, 2015)

Only if I could guarantee it would bring me the lifestyle and adulation enjoyed by L Ron Hubbard.


----------



## killer b (Nov 21, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> A small minority did try to say this on that two million post thread obsessing about her.


In your years of exile I've rather come round to your view. I dunno, I think that thread sometimes served a purpose in illuminating the way the liberal media bubble maintains itself (it still does occasionally), but that got lost from view as it went on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 21, 2015)

Jimmy Turr said:


> A small minority did try to say this on that two million post thread obsessing about her.



Including that wanker LLETSA.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 26, 2015)

Well tonight I attended my first full members meeting. Went with another quite leftie member I met on the House of Commons tour. 
Freezing room, Thirty five people all facing a top table populated by three who looked asleep at best. Two speakers talking about their preferred airport expansion plan. They droned on and on. I collared the ultra blairite MP afterwards. I asked her which way she would vote on bombing Syria. She said brazenly she would support the Tories and vote for bombing. 

The conversation went rapidly onto accusations of warmonger, pity the weeping children etc,  and deselecting her. I don't think she was used to this sort of accountability process. I was and am seething. I bet she was more shaken that I though. My membership card is still intact but for how long, well..


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Well tonight I attended my first full members meeting. Went with another quite leftie member I met on the House of Commons tour.
> Freezing room, Thirty five people all facing a top table populated by three who looked asleep at best. Two speakers talking about their preferred airport expansion plan. They droned on and on. I collared the ultra blairite MP afterwards. I asked her which way she would vote on bombing Syria. She said brazenly she would support the Tories and vote for bombing.
> 
> The conversation went rapidly onto accusations of warmonger, pity the weeping children etc,  and deselecting her. I don't think she was used to this sort of accountability process. I was and am seething. I bet she was more shaken that I though. My membership card is still intact but for how long, well..


8 months probation on exit. Then jury of peers.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 26, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> 8 months probation on exit. Then jury of peers.


(Cultural revolutionary court)

"I have let myself down, let the movement down, I'm sorry". 

GULAG!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I collared the ultra blairite MP afterwards. I asked her which way she would vote on bombing Syria. She said brazenly she would support the Tories and vote for bombing.



I hope you have a small red/black notebook into which you can scribble notes on their replies to your questions, all whilst staring into their eyes at close range, punctuating the scratch of pen on paper with occasional harrumphs and growls, and concluding with a loud TWANG as you close the cover with its elasticated strap. No action undocumented! No decision forgotten!


----------



## TopCat (Nov 26, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> I hope you have a small red/black notebook into which you can scribble notes on their replies to your questions, all whilst staring into their eyes at close range, punctuating the scratch of pen on paper with occasional harrumphs and growls, and concluding with a loud TWANG as you close the cover with its elasticated strap. No action undocumented! No decision forgotten!


I totally lost my cool. The softly gently entry approach got dropped like a pint in a fight.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I totally lost my cool. The softly gently entry approach got dropped like a pint in a fight.



Probably for the best if you want anything to happen, Blairites are used to swatting away the softly softly socialism, they aren't used to being seriously questioned which is why they are all kicking off so much now


----------



## TopCat (Nov 26, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Probably for the best if you want anything to happen, Blairites are used to swatting away the softly softly socialism, they aren't used to being seriously questioned which is why they are all kicking off so much now


I was thinking similar on the walk home. I really doubt she ever gets questioned much. I am going to have to be a bit more pissed the next meeting. I think that is a Christmas party in the House of Commons?


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2015)

christ, the london parties get all the junkets. round here it's a pint of mild and some vol-au-vents down the club.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 26, 2015)

killer b said:


> christ, the london parties get all the junkets. round here it's a pint of mild and some vol-au-vents down the club.


VOL-AU-VENTS?!


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2015)

They're very sophisticated in the Preston labour party.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Well tonight I attended my first full members meeting. Went with another quite leftie member I met on the House of Commons tour.
> Freezing room, Thirty five people all facing a top table populated by three who looked asleep at best. Two speakers talking about their preferred airport expansion plan. They droned on and on. I collared the ultra blairite MP afterwards. I asked her which way she would vote on bombing Syria. She said brazenly she would support the Tories and vote for bombing.
> 
> The conversation went rapidly onto accusations of warmonger, pity the weeping children etc,  and deselecting her. I don't think she was used to this sort of accountability process. I was and am seething. I bet she was more shaken that I though. My membership card is still intact but for how long, well..



 am doing the equivalent in N Devon in Jan ( i think ), comparable scenarios expected


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2015)

danny la rouge said:


> Breaking: The half of a comedy duo that never gets asked on panel shows is leaving a party blah de blah.
> 
> He should have been expelled for being a whining twat.


Thats unfair...his voiceover work on Great Movie Mistakes 2 surely puts him in some newsworthy standing


----------



## tony.c (Nov 27, 2015)

Our MP has invited CLP members to email her with our views on what should be done re Syria. I wasn't going to bother, but I think I will now, saying she should support Corbyn as the Blairites are trying to undermine him. I think she would support him anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2015)

tony.c said:


> Our MP has invited CLP members to email her with our views on what should be done re Syria. I wasn't going to bother, but I think I will now, saying she should support Corbyn as the Blairites are trying to undermine him. I think she would support him anyway.


no offence, but that makes it look like you are playing partisan party politics over a hugely serious issue... lots of other reasons not to drop bombs


----------



## mk12 (Nov 27, 2015)

Bit of good news for Corbyn...

Fire Brigades Union to re-affiliate to Labour - BBC News


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Including that wanker LLETSA.


he was an auld miserablist


----------



## Coolfonz (Nov 27, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Well tonight I attended my first full members meeting. Went with another quite leftie member I met on the House of Commons tour.
> Freezing room, Thirty five people all facing a top table populated by three who looked asleep at best. Two speakers talking about their preferred airport expansion plan. They droned on and on. I collared the ultra blairite MP afterwards. I asked her which way she would vote on bombing Syria. She said brazenly she would support the Tories and vote for bombing.
> 
> The conversation went rapidly onto accusations of warmonger, pity the weeping children etc,  and deselecting her. I don't think she was used to this sort of accountability process. I was and am seething. I bet she was more shaken that I though. My membership card is still intact but for how long, well..



Did you manage to steal anything?


----------



## newbie (Nov 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> no offence, but that makes it look like you are playing partisan party politics over a hugely serious issue... lots of other reasons not to drop bombs


maybe, but party politics is inseparable from the ishooos, whether or not you or I think in those terms. Corbyn is isolated, both in the shadow cabinet and the PLP. He can't impose discipline (everyone would laugh, apart from anything else) nor, frankly, expect to win the arguments there. To my eye his letter looks like a an appeal for his supporters in his party and outside to put pressure on the MPs, just as TopCat did. It's hard to see what else any of us can do, today, tomorrow other than piling on pressure, in whatever terms.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> maybe, but party politics is inseparable from the ishooos, whether or not you or I think in those terms. Corbyn is isolated, both in the shadow cabinet and the PLP. He can't impose discipline (everyone would laugh, apart from anything else) nor, frankly, expect to win the arguments there. To my eye his letter looks like a an appeal for his supporters in his party and outside to put pressure on the MPs, just as TopCat did. It's hard to see what else any of us can do, today, tomorrow other than piling on pressure, in whatever terms.


sure, but when the appeal is made to make it explicitly and solely on a "whose side are you in, Corbyn or Blairite" feels a bit crass considering what life and mass death decisions are going on here.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 27, 2015)

There is no way the government will lose the vote, just no way.


----------



## J Ed (Nov 27, 2015)

He only just lost the lets re-run the Iraq War with even worse consequences even though everyone knows it's a terrible idea vote in 2013, they had less MPs then and Labour was an actually coherent force. The vote to bomb ISIS will be a cakewalk, if he thought there was any chance at all of losing the vote he wouldn't be holding it, Cameron has said as much.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> sure, but when the appeal is made to make it explicitly and solely on a "whose side are you in, Corbyn or Blairite" feels a bit crass considering what life and mass death decisions are going on here.




**Awaits anybody claiming that it's like Barcelona in May, 1937***


----------



## tony.c (Nov 28, 2015)

ska invita said:


> no offence, but that makes it look like you are playing partisan party politics over a hugely serious issue... lots of other reasons not to drop bombs


It's not me that's playing partisan party politics, but the right wing of the PLP who are using this hugely serious issue to destabilise Corbyn, with the aim of removing him as leader before the next GE.

We all know the reasons for and against dropping bombs, they have been publicly debated at great detail over the last couple of weeks, and before. I don't need to tell my MP why we shouldn't just be dropping bombs. The email she sent me included comprehensive arguments for and against involvement in an air campaign, which were far better expressed than I could.

As an ordinary member of the Labour Party I don't think my views are going to carry any weight one way or the other. My MP's vote will carry some weight. I think she will be supporting Corbyn and I just wanted to support her position.

Anyway I can't get through to her website to reply. I just get constant buffering. I don't know whether that's due to IT problems, or because she is getting a lot of replies, or the site has gone down, but I will try a couple more times before I give up.

I have also received the email from Jeremy Corbyn, and will be replying to that too, to say I support his position, if I can get through.

Edit: I have replied to Corbyn but I still can't get through on my MP's website.


----------



## tony.c (Dec 2, 2015)

tony.c said:


> I still can't get through on my MP's website.


I didn't get through on the website, but I sent her an email. I received an email today saying, after receiving hundreds of responses, emails and letters from constituents, she will be voting against bombing tonight.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 18, 2015)

I went to a Momentum meeting last night and it was really awful.


----------



## DrRingDing (Dec 18, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I went to a Momentum meeting last night and it was really awful.



Was there much momentum?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 18, 2015)

It was a dead weight.

*gets coat*


----------



## J Ed (Dec 18, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> Was there much momentum?



No.

From the Blairite whining I expected calls for deselection, violence and street thugs which sounded very nice but instead there was just a room full of people who seemed to be confused as to why they were actually there.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I expected calls for deselection, violence and street thugs



Together we _can _make it happen!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I went to a Momentum meeting last night and it was really awful.


i could have told you that it would be shit


----------



## killer b (Dec 19, 2015)

How could it be anything else? Momentum exists, as far as I can tell, to retain in or near to the Labour party all the people who vaguely want to do something to help, but don't want to get involved with dogshit politics. What actual use could they possibly be?


----------



## NoXion (Dec 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I went to a Momentum meeting last night and it was really awful.



Out of curiosity, what actually happened?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2015)

killer b said:


> How could it be anything else? Momentum exists, as far as I can tell, to retain in or near to the Labour party all the people who vaguely want to do something to help, but don't want to get involved with dogshit politics. What actual use could they possibly be?


And all the dead left who have spent their life _producing _dogshit politics. In fact, i can't think of anyone else who really be involved beyond a few naive types.


----------



## killer b (Dec 19, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Out of curiosity, what actually happened?


50 people all wanting to 'help' with the social media strategy.


----------



## killer b (Dec 19, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> i can't think of anyone else who really be involved beyond a few naive types.


poor J Ed


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> No.
> 
> From the Blairite whining I expected calls for deselection, violence and street thugs which sounded very nice but instead there was just a room full of people who seemed to be confused as to why they were actually there.


How many vicars?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 19, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Out of curiosity, what actually happened?



Trots tried to sell newspapers
The Labour Party councillor running the meeting told everyone about the undemocratic decision to exclude the Trots from decision making meetings, people argued along obviously preprepared lines and the Labour Party people actually made the swappies seem reasonable
People argued for about 30 minutes about what specific geographic area the group should cover then I left and got a quick pint before getting the bus home.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2015)

killer b said:


> How could it be anything else? Momentum exists, as far as I can tell, to retain in or near to the Labour party all the people who vaguely want to do something to help, but don't want to get involved with dogshit politics. What actual use could they possibly be?


This isn't what it is though is it? It's the old left trying to do a bit of back seat driving direct through to their contacts in Corybn's team rather than deal with being actually openly in the party as they know that is a dead end.


----------



## killer b (Dec 19, 2015)

Look at the lovely new dead end they've made for themselves.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Trots tried to sell newspapers
> The Labour Party councillor running the meeting told everyone about the undemocratic decision to exclude the Trots from decision making meetings, people argued along obviously preprepared lines and the Labour Party people actually made the swappies seem reasonable
> People argued for about 30 minutes about what specific geographic area the group should cover then I left and got a quick pint before getting the bus home.



Which was nice


----------



## treelover (Dec 25, 2015)

> * Jeremy Corbyn defends Momentum in Morning Star interview *
> Labour leader says party membership now biggest and most active in his lifetime and leftwing Momentum group can attract new people




Jeremy Corbyn defends Momentum in Morning Star interview

The LP apprently now has 400'000 members, thats a lot, imagine what they could do if they did something worthwhile, like robustly challeging the welfare cuts, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 25, 2015)

treelover said:


> Jeremy Corbyn defends Momentum in Morning Star interview
> 
> The LP apprently now has 400'000 members, thats a lot, imagine what they could do if they did something worthwhile, like robustly challeging the welfare cuts, etc.



When/if Corbyn re-empowers the membership, and re-democratises the constituency parties so that they can rein in MPs, then he may be able to do that successfully. As it is though, the Parliamentary Labour Party feel safe enough in their seats that the neoliberals among them feel no compunction about going along with - or abstaining from votes about - social security cuts.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Dec 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> When/if Corbyn re-empowers the membership, and re-democratises the constituency parties so that they can rein in MPs, then he may be able to do that successfully. As it is though, the Parliamentary Labour Party feel safe enough in their seats that the neoliberals among them feel no compunction about going along with - or abstaining from votes about - social security cuts.



Doesn't this mean: when/if the people who have been in the Labour Party 3.5minutes and agree with Corbyn can kick out the people who have fought for years to beat the Tories... but right now those people can vote as they were elected to by the electorate.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 26, 2015)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Doesn't this mean: when/if the people who have been in the Labour Party 3.5minutes and agree with Corbyn can kick out the people who have fought for years to be the Tories... but right now those people can vote as they were elected to by the electorate.



CFY


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Dec 26, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> CFY


CFY


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 26, 2015)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Doesn't this mean: when/if the people who have been in the Labour Party 3.5minutes and agree with Corbyn can kick out the people who have fought for years to beat the Tories... but right now those people can vote as they were elected to by the electorate.


New members can't just kick out other members -it doesn't work like that. And why assume new members haven'y been fighting to 'beat the tories' for years?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 26, 2015)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Doesn't this mean: when/if the people who have been in the Labour Party 3.5minutes and agree with Corbyn can kick out the people who have fought for years to beat the Tories... but right now those people can vote as they were elected to by the electorate.



No, it doesn't mean that at all. Lets do some maths.
If the party had 270,000 members before Corbyn's election, and now has just under 400,000, then the pre-existing "faction", if factions exist, has twice as many members as the so-called "Corbynistas". That being the case, the *ONLY* way the "Corbynistas" could carry out any programme of re-democratisation is if the carry the majority with them.
Try thinking before writing, next time.

As for "fought to beat the Tories", most of the Blairites who took over my local constituency party have more in common with the Tories politically, than with anything remotely anti-Tory.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 26, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> New members can't just kick out other members -it doesn't work like that. And why assume new members haven'y been fighting to 'beat the tories' for years?



Quite. Any restoration of powers to constituency parties will take a couple of years. What I find interesting is how rarely it's represented as "restoration", but is presented as something new, unprecedented and dangerous.


----------



## treelover (Dec 29, 2015)

> *Momentum Bullying*
> Last week a leak from Momentum revealed that Jon Lansman needed to discipline Momentum activists after some inappropriate behaviour. This was not an accurate representation of what occurred.
> 
> Instead activists confronted Lansman and ‘senior representatives’ in Momentum after being subject to bullying and intimidation.
> ...




Oh dear, not another implosion on its way, how come the euro left goes from strength to strength, but we have this.I wonder if its drifters from the ISN?, etc, it obviously the youth element.

having said that, i am aware the Momentum people are working incredibly hard and its is early days.

btw, is Lansman Socialist Action?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 29, 2015)

Why are you even aware of that site?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 29, 2015)

Be Blairite
Join Momentum
Write anonymous accusations on the internet about bullying
Media lap it up

You could even skip step two.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> Oh dear, not another implosion on its way, how come the euro left goes from strength to strength, but we have this.I wonder if its drifters from the ISN, etc?
> 
> having said that, i am aware the Momentum people are working incredibly hard.


not sure "working extremely hard" of itself necessarily good.


----------



## treelover (Dec 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Why are you even aware of that site?



Eh, there was a link from Momentums FB site.


----------



## treelover (Dec 29, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Be Blairite
> Join Momentum
> Write anonymous accusations on the internet about bullying
> Media lap it up
> ...




it could be, but plenty of the 'dissidents who claim there is bullying going on seem legit.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> Eh, there was a link from Momentums FB site.


So we have a blairite group sending someone into momentum to 'get the dirt' then said dirt being posted on some nothing site and you're all over it? You're being played.

edit: as it seems you're starting to realise.


----------



## treelover (Dec 29, 2015)

> *6. The Leak*
> 
> *When the abuse began we leaked information to the press.* They were not interested. We sent an email to Ben Riley-Smith outlining what had happened. Instead he reported the story above that appears to paint Lansman in a far better light.
> 
> We have since contacted Ben to enquire on this, with no response



Anyone who does this is not very clever and not doing it in the interests of a group like Momentum.


----------



## treelover (Dec 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> So we have a blairite group sending someone into momentum to 'get the dirt' then said dirt being posted on some nothing site and you're all over it? You're being played.




I am posting on an obscure political board, and am very willing to see what others think, it may be all bollocks, a plant, as you say, though the main protagnist seems to have been intrinsic to JC election campaign.

not heard much from Kat Fletcher since the win


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> So we have a blairite group sending someone into momentum to 'get the dirt' then said dirt being posted on some nothing site and you're all over it? You're being played.
> 
> edit: as it seems you're starting to realise.


he's going at 20 in a 40 zone


----------



## J Ed (Dec 29, 2015)

I just wasted my time reading through that weird blog.

It's just people being unnecessarily forthright on facebook, where is the actual bullying?

The person who posted it up on the Momentum FB is a Burnham supporter


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 29, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I just wasted my time reading through that weird blog.
> 
> It's just people being unnecessarily forthright on facebook, where is the actual bullying?
> 
> The person who posted it up on the Momentum FB is a Burnham supporter



Yeah, I read about a third of it and gave up. Apparently someone used the word 'fuck' in a FB message , which seems to be about the extent of this 'bullying' as far as I can tell. People seriously need to get off Facebook and stop feigning victimhood and offence at every little thing ever.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 29, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Yeah, I read about a third of it and gave up. Apparently someone used the word 'fuck' in a FB message , which seems to be about the extent of this 'bullying' as far as I can tell. People seriously need to get off Facebook and grow up ffs.



If even the hysterically anti-Corbyn press refuse to pick up your smear then perhaps it's time to reconsider what you are trying to get across, or alternatively it's time to start a tumblr.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 29, 2015)

this is nakedly the labour right tactic now. The 'trots' are bullying us.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> this is nakedly the labour right tactic now. The 'trots' are bullying us.



If only it were true.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 29, 2015)

It's completely pathetic is what it is.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 29, 2015)

teqniq said:


> It's completely pathetic is what it is.



It's an apolitical tactic for apolitical people, these are the tactics used by the likes of HR departments to bully people out of roles within corporate hierarchies.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 29, 2015)

Yes I see what you mean but it's so transparent, I have nothing but contempt for them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 29, 2015)

maybe instead of a revenge re-shuffle C-Byn could have a game of Revenge Texas Hold Em and the person who loses all his chips first has to listen to tom watsons humblebrags for a solid hour. If that person is tom watson he should have to do something equally arduos.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> this is nakedly the labour right tactic now. The 'trots' are bullying us.



Wouldn't be so bad if any of the people doing the supposed bullying were actual Trots, would it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> maybe instead of a revenge re-shuffle C-Byn could have a game of Revenge Texas Hold Em and the person who loses all his chips first has to listen to tom watsons humblebrags for a solid hour. If that person is tom watson he should have to do something equally arduos.



The whole "reshuffle" thing was so obviously an attempt by "The Resistance" to fire-proof the positions of rightists in the shadow cabinet that I've been chuckling every time I think of it, and it's equally obvious that the outlets that originally reported the nonsense are perfectly aware of "The Resistance's" role.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 29, 2015)

Good piece by Alan Simpson

New Labour’s upper crust thought they were born to rule – no wonder they’re furious with Corbyn


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Jan 4, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If only it were true.


Can't they just organise an orgy at callinicos' gaff or that villa in France?

Would spare us from having to read the petty twelve-year-old butthurt drivel.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 4, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Good piece by Alan Simpson
> 
> New Labour’s upper crust thought they were born to rule – no wonder they’re furious with Corbyn



got to guess that the Morning Star must be on an upswing over the last year or so, haven't seen it about (online version)  / then read it so much for years, seems concise and clear headed about things.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> got to guess that the Morning Star must be on an upswing over the last year or so, haven't seen it about (online version)  / then read it so much for years, seems concise and clear headed about things.


You would be too if you waited 57 years for a bus.

(It's still shit written by dead people)


----------



## killer b (Jan 4, 2016)

The MS has an energetic web team atm which gives an impression of some measure of vitality, but the actual contents of the paper are as leaden as ever.


----------



## killer b (Jan 4, 2016)

any thoughts on this doomy number crunching in the staggers btw? How is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour faring in elections


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jan 4, 2016)

killer b said:


> any thoughts on this doomy number crunching in the staggers btw? How is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour faring in elections


Writer is v.anti-Corbyn. The straight judgement on the figures is sound enough (ie. reflect the reality of where Corbyn is now) but the analysis on where they'll go is a pretty wild stab in the dark. I don't think there's any sound reason to assume that his polling trajectory can be predicted by looking at elections going back to the 1970s. No Labour opposition leader has ever been subjected to such instant hostility from every single major news outlet and I don't think he's got much soft support still to shed (ie. if you've stood by him through all the crap that's already been levelled at him, you'll still be there in May 2020).


----------



## Knotted (Jan 4, 2016)

killer b said:


> any thoughts on this doomy number crunching in the staggers btw? How is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour faring in elections



It reminds me of the reasoning gamblers use. He's looking for patterns that don't exist. Example of a baseless assumption: Labour's polling rises and falls in the same pattern throughout various terms in opposition, the whole piece uses this assumption again and again. You may as well talk about winning streaks and losing streaks. An assumption with only the hint of vaguely circumstantial backing: Labour's vote may still be being flattered by the polls. An argument which is just plain ridiculous based on an assumption that's deeply dubious: the change in pollsters' methods should not caution against making comparisons with previous polls because previous polls were correct five years ago. After assuming the polls inflate Labour's vote he then ignores this assumption and claims that Labour is no better off in Wales because Labour are polling the same as they got in May. I could go on. An absolute tour de force of spurious reasoning. I love this guy.

That's not to say the picture isn't gloomy for Labour. But the eagerness of some people to see patterns in shaky figures especially when they relate to Jeremy Corbyn is breathtaking. I think it's a belief that lefty romanticism will inevitably be defeated by cold hard reason, and reality gets bent to satisfy this belief just because it's so ... _believable..._ _inevitable_.

Oh yeah and note the little assumption right at the start. Corbyn won't win over any Tory voters. Tory voters will not become disillusioned with their party.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 4, 2016)

killer b said:


> any thoughts on this doomy number crunching in the staggers btw? How is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour faring in elections


It's about right. We're doomed to a Tory government for the foreseeable future. Until Benn is elected leader. Clive Lewis is an MP near here. He's bizarre to say the least and the rumours are he will be in the shadow cabinet.


----------



## killer b (Jan 4, 2016)

Lewis has always sounded on point when I've heard him on the radio - how is he bizarre?


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 4, 2016)

Jokes about shagging goats with Ed Miliband, conspiracy theories, ideology above his constituents needs, lazy accusations of racism keeping him off TV, he courts the limelight. I know all politicians are narcissists, but he is ridiculous.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Jokes about shagging goats with Ed Miliband, conspiracy theories, ideology above his constituents needs, lazy accusations of racism keeping him off TV, he courts the limelight. I know all politicians are narcissists, but he is ridiculous.


Well argued.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2016)

A privately educated wannabe landlord rich kid isn't keen on Corbyn - well the scales have truely fallen from my eyes now.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm not rich, but think what you like.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It's about right. We're doomed to a Tory government for the foreseeable future. Until Benn is elected leader. Clive Lewis is an MP near here. He's bizarre to say the least and the rumours are he will be in the shadow cabinet.



So who's your MP, Lamb or one of the Tories?
3 of my aunts on my dad's side are Lewis's constituents, and reckon he's done more for locals since he was elected in May than the previous incumbent did in a month of Sundays.

I just hope you're not one of the (sadly still plentiful) Norfuckers who think that being of mixed race is "bizarre".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Jokes about shagging goats with Ed Miliband, conspiracy theories, ideology above his constituents needs, lazy accusations of racism keeping him off TV, he courts the limelight. I know all politicians are narcissists, but he is ridiculous.



"Ideology above his constituent needs" is balls. The only people who whine about him in the EDP are Lib-Dems, because they haven't got over Wright being made to take the Long Walk in May.


----------



## Greasy Boiler (Jan 5, 2016)

You know, it funny - by all accounts I live in one of the more right-wing areas of the UK and yest looking at survey after survey a large majority of residents (not just FPTP majorities - actual majorities ) support leftist policies. I can't help but think that as a nation we're so fucking awestruck by the right's borne-to-rule mentality that anything that isn't the most simpering we-wont-really-change-much opposition is considered unfeasible.


----------



## killer b (Jan 5, 2016)

Re: why Corbyn / Labour are polling so badly atm: there's a few reasons.

Corbyn faces a totally unprecedented smear campaign against him, that takes in the entirety of the mass media and many of Labour's own MPs and Labour-aligned commentators, advisors and allies. I think Tony Blair explained the Labour right wing's position best during the infamous hear transplant speech, 'I wouldn’t want to win on an old fashioned leftist platform. Even if I thought it was the route to victory, I wouldn’t take it.' - they would rather another Tory victory in 2020 than put their shoulders to the wheel and work towards a Labour victory under Corbyn, such is their ideological opposition to his policies. Obviously, they're hoping his position will become untenable before then: but if not, then the right wing will be ready post-defeat to take back the party. They have no plans that involve Corbyn taking Labour to victory.

So, while Corbyn has made significant attempts to draw together a team from all wings of the party (making a virtue of necessity, as his own wing - in the PLP at least - is so tiny), the right wing feel no compunction to make any significant concessions as they've no intention of him staying in place any longer than they can help. This results in something that should be a fairly simple job - say a minor reshuffle - taking several days, as complex negotiations need to be carried out with every minute change to prevent the shadow cabinet collapsing altogether. 

The drawn out negotiations can then be spun by their allies in the press as a shambles, another example of Corbyn's incompetence, as well as another example of how badly divided the PLP is. 

These are the biggest issues - that the main medium by which the politician reaches the public is so relentlessly hostile, and that he is trying to fettle a parliamentary group that is actively attempting to sabotage his chances of success. I don't see either of these things changing in the near future. 

There are other issues: the lack of experience of the leadership team has led them to making some fairly elementary mistakes, which have - of course - been magnified a hundredfold by their enemies both within and without the party. There's also a dearth of talent on the left of the party (there's only about 7 of them after all) meaning that walking disasters like Abbot and Livingston end up being the visible face of the leadership. And the many of the politics they push, while not being particularly radical, are far enough away from the current political mainstream to be characterised as such and dismissed by the mainstream. But none of these are fatal - the main two may be.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Re: why Corbyn / Labour are polling so badly atm: there's a few reasons.
> 
> Corbyn faces a totally unprecedented smear campaign against him, that takes in the entirety of the mass media and many of Labour's own MPs and Labour-aligned commentators, advisors and allies. I think Tony Blair explained the Labour right wing's position best during the infamous hear transplant speech, 'I wouldn’t want to win on an old fashioned leftist platform. Even if I thought it was the route to victory, I wouldn’t take it.' - they would rather another Tory victory in 2020 than put their shoulders to the wheel and work towards a Labour victory under Corbyn, such is their ideological opposition to his policies. Obviously, they're hoping his position will become untenable before then: but if not, then the right wing will be ready post-defeat to take back the party. They have no plans that involve Corbyn taking Labour to victory.
> 
> ...



Which is all fine, but the fact remains that Corbyn's LP are polling at, or just above, the level of support the party received in the GE under Miliband. 






I suspect that for many of those sampled in these polls the party's appeal (or lack of) has not changed very much..irrespective of leadership.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 5, 2016)

It'll take a recession for Corbyn's numbers to go up.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 5, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> It'll take a recession for Corbyn's numbers to go up.


should be along shortly unless Osbourne's a spectacularly lucky incompetent cunt.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 5, 2016)

free spirit said:


> should be along shortly unless Osbourne's a spectacularly lucky incompetent cunt.



Well he definitely is one of those. Can't imagine his luck will last another 5 years though.


----------



## killer b (Jan 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Which is all fine, but the fact remains that Corbyn's LP are polling at, or just above, the level of support the party received in the GE under Miliband.


Which wasn't enough to win the GE (by a margin), and is lower than it was at the same point in the cycle last time round, and his personal numbers are pretty woeful, worse than Milibands (which we spent 5 years dismissing as insignificant, only for it to turn out not to be). 

It'd be stupid to make any predictions this far in advance of the next election - I think in a lot of ways we're in uncharted territory, and there's a lot of things coming up that make it even more difficult to predict. But Corbyn's personal numbers are mainly down to his perceived incompetence, and I can't see either of the drivers of that perception - hostile party, hostile press - changing their tune anytime soon.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 5, 2016)

With important elections not far off I get the distinct impression some in the Labour Party would rather do quite badly, for the "I told you so."

If these sore losers had instead been onside with the mass of their own party, at least for the medium term, we'd have united opposition tearing strips off this disgusting government. Maybe not a big short term poll bounce, certainly not the favour of tax dodging billionaire disinfo oligarchs, but an 8+ / 10 functioning opposition.

This doesn't interest some folk. They'd sooner tack along with the same bullshitters who said Corbyn wouldn't be elected, MPs would cross the floor when he did, Oldham West would be close and Benn would be sacked. Fool me once or even twice happens. Fool me time and again, I'm a fucking spanner.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Which wasn't enough to win the GE (by a margin), and is lower than it was at the same point in the cycle last time round, and his personal numbers are pretty woeful, worse than Milibands (which we spent 5 years dismissing as insignificant, only for it to turn out not to be).
> 
> It'd be stupid to make any predictions this far in advance of the next election - I think in a lot of ways we're in uncharted territory, and there's a lot of things coming up that make it even more difficult to predict. But Corbyn's personal numbers are mainly down to his perceived incompetence, and I can't see either of the drivers of that perception - hostile party, hostile press - changing their tune anytime soon.


True enough, but your thorough analysis concentrated upon the specific context of Corbyn's leadership...I just wanted to point out that, irrespective of these factors, the electoral malaise of the LP remains reasonably unaltered since May.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 6, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> It'll take a recession for Corbyn's numbers to go up.



Has to be more than a 50% chance that we'll have one before 2020.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 6, 2016)

killer b said:


> But Corbyn's personal numbers are mainly down to his perceived incompetence, and I can't see either of the drivers of that perception - hostile party, hostile press - changing their tune anytime soon.


that perception is also driven by the multiple former new labour big wigs or wannabes who're almost continuously briefing against him / sniping from the sidelines in the press.

Even if they can't support him, if they'd just shut the fuck up for the next 5 years Labour might stand a chance at the next election under Corbyn. If not then they're probably fucked with or without him as the damage is being done to the credibility of the party, not just Corbyn.


----------



## killer b (Jan 6, 2016)

They aren't going to shut the fuck up. They want him to fail.


----------



## killer b (Jan 6, 2016)

Also, the credibility of the party isn't something that's permanently damaged - remember the tories under Iain Duncan Smith? Theyre banking under a shiny new leader, with the press onside and a tory party that's divided on europe and lost its shine to fight against, the centre will come flooding back.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jan 6, 2016)

McTernan on Radio Five this morning was livid and in full on hate mode.  He really is a piece of work. Congrats to Labour on appointing a shadow defence minister who is at least unconvinced of the wisdom of spending a fortune on a practically useless weapon of genocide.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 6, 2016)

killer b said:


> Corbyn faces a totally unprecedented smear campaign against him, that takes in the entirety of the mass media and many of Labour's own MPs and Labour-aligned commentators, advisors and allies. I think Tony Blair explained the Labour right wing's position best during the infamous hear transplant speech, 'I wouldn’t want to win on an old fashioned leftist platform. Even if I thought it was the route to victory, I wouldn’t take it.' - they would rather another Tory victory in 2020 than put their shoulders to the wheel and work towards a Labour victory under Corbyn, such is their ideological opposition to his policies. Obviously, they're hoping his position will become untenable before then: but if not, then the right wing will be ready post-defeat to take back the party. They have no plans that involve Corbyn taking Labour to victory.


Looks like they're stepping it up a gear.


----------



## killer b (Jan 6, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Looks like they're stepping it up a gear.


Not really, this is just their strategy: to exploit every opportunity to create a crisis.


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2016)

killer b said:


> Not really, this is just their strategy: to exploit every opportunity to create a crisis.


and to turn every minor incident into a 'crisis'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 6, 2016)

killer b said:


> They aren't going to shut the fuck up. They want him to fail.



They *need* Corbyn to fail. He's a threat (although on analysis only a mild one) to the current economic consensus, and the current political settlement whereby all the major parties represent the same policies, just differently-worded, and applied with slightly more or less social lubrication.


----------



## Zabo (Jan 6, 2016)

Apologies - I couldn't resist.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 7, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Looks like they're stepping it up a gear.


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## Coolfonz (Apr 7, 2016)

How did joining the Labour Party go TopCat ?


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## killer b (Apr 7, 2016)

He hasn't got time to post atm, there's an election on next month - he'll be out knocking on door.


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## Coolfonz (Apr 10, 2016)

He/she might get swept to power.


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## ska invita (Mar 2, 2018)

Bumping...anyone got update anecodotes from party membership two years on?


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## MochaSoul (Mar 2, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Bumping...anyone got update anecodotes from party membership two years on?



Look at #LabourLosingWomen on twitter


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## ska invita (Mar 2, 2018)

MochaSoul said:


> Look at #LabourLosingWomen on twitter


is it all about Trans/Terf warfare?
incidentally its been 6 months since that mass resignation in Hastings (i think) CLP, and a formal request made for a ruling on what counts as Transphobia from Labour HQ. Despite repeated requests no answer has come (the maker of the request was at some kind of meeting this week i heard). Suggests some serious head burying in sand to me


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## MochaSoul (Mar 2, 2018)

The hashtag was started because of Labour's direction re self-id/proposed changes in the GRA, but it gets used by all manner of point-scoring types (e.g blairites, remainers, tories). You have to be patient to wade through it. Women have been tweeting screenshots of their letters ending their memberships and this is, of course, not helpful because it just makes other women within Labour but who also have misgivings feel more isolated.

I was at the meeting too. The meeting did not feature only Labour women. WEP women were there (inc. Sophie Walker who intervened to justify WEP's actions against Heather Brunskell-Evans who was also there to respond), Mumsnet women of various political persuasions were there, women belonging to all manner of ethnic minorities, trade-unionists as well as Labour women.

Anne Ruyzlo made a point about CLP's up and down the country passing anti-transphobia motions that in effect silence women (much in the same way as Bristol uni students have just voted for a banning of TERFs) without a clear definition of transphobia and without people having an understanding of the aims behind those motions.

The meeting was fraught and shouty unlike other meetings by the same organisation. Several reasons for that - the nature of this particular meeting (the aim was to urging a stand to be made); didn't help to have protestors shouting abuse at women as they entered and Bergdorf's being asked by Labour as an LGBT advisor just the day before did not help and women felt it like another slap in their faces and women's views are becoming even more entrenched (I suppose this comes with being on defensive mode, especially lesbians who are bearing the brunt of gender scientism going mainstream)

No answer has come from Labour because 1. they didn't think it through to start with and now it's become a hot potato and 2. some higher ups within Labour (Momentum, in particular) are heavily invested in a sex politics that dismisses women's exploitation and structural sexism (approaches to prostitution as "sex work", to give an example).

#WPUK is usually used to give updates on the meeting to those who couldn't attend. I haven't seen how that went but it should be good.

Latest big development is the BACP's apology for publishing a letter by Stephanie Davies-Arai and asserting their commitment to affirmative therapies in that apology.


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## Sea Star (Apr 4, 2018)




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## nogojones (Apr 4, 2018)

So what's it like in there now? Sending for TopCat


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## YouSir (Apr 4, 2018)

nogojones said:


> So what's it like in there now? Sending for TopCat



Joined to vote for Corbyn, whenever that was, we're winning sometimes. Updates pending...


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## YouSir (Apr 4, 2018)

For a story though. We were choosing councillor candidates and one was a city worker who talked about parking, the other was a TUnionist who railed about societies injusticies. We lost by about 5 votes. That kind of area, but gives a fair idea of how (on a good day) it's going.


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## nogojones (Apr 4, 2018)

YouSir said:


> For a story though. We were choosing councillor candidates and one was a city worker who talked about parking, the other was a TUnionist who railed about societies injusticies. We lost by about 5 votes. That kind of area, but gives a fair idea of how (on a good day) it's going.


who gets to vote for the prospective councillor candidates. All the elected members? those who turn up at the meeting? a small cabal?


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## YouSir (Apr 4, 2018)

nogojones said:


> who gets to vote for the prospective councillor candidates. All the elected members? those who turn up at the meeting? a small cabal?


 
Ward delegates as I recall, so relatively open. I was one until we got jumped at the last AGM when us on the Left were reduced to one by a lack of organisation. On the plus side though the council delegate is a decent person and when the boundaries shift we'll have another AGM, so may change.


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## cantsin (Apr 5, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Bumping...anyone got update anecodotes from party membership two years on?



was at our little informal ward meet last night in nice boozer( these only started post 2015 apparently - would never had numbers pre  Corbyn) .... discussion at end, and the UCW / postie woman made casual comment that the upsurge in youngster participation in the Party was mainly down to Momentum...met with a murmur of agreement, and lead on to brief discussion on how the new local Mom group was going, when was next meet, who fancied it etc.

It wasn't like this even 12 months ago - all the scare stories, all the 'bully / thugs' nonsense, now just seems to be  ignored as people see the reality of the situation first hand, and Mom is now viewed internally largely as an on it, activist wing, getting the youngsters on board ( in theory - our lot not exactly straight out of sixth form tbh).

Not sure how representative our lot are, or where it all goes from here, but feels encouraging


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## TopCat (Apr 5, 2018)

nogojones said:


> So what's it like in there now? Sending for TopCat


I left.


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## Chuff (Apr 6, 2018)

Anticapitalist beetroot - Jewdas 2018 seder (pickled)  | eBay anti-capitalist beetroot


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## imposs1904 (Apr 7, 2018)

Chuff said:


> Anticapitalist beetroot - Jewdas 2018 seder (pickled)  | eBay anti-capitalist beetroot



What?


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## Chuff (Apr 7, 2018)

its the beetroot from Jeremy Corbyns Jewish dinner party - the fuck capitalism beetroot that has had the meedja in turmoil


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## teqniq (Apr 8, 2018)

this one made me smile the most


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## cantsin (Apr 10, 2018)

just watched the Novara / Lansman interview - interesting stuff, Lansman v conciliatory on A/S, and not at all prickly when questioned about Mom's internal democracy / lack thereof etc.

Perhaps most importantly, first official sounding word re:  the reselection issue that I've heard , ie : that conference will vote on an "enhanced version of current trigger ballot" option in Sept - but mandatory reselection isn't on the cards.

Has anyone else heard any more about this / have further details ?


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## ska invita (Mar 3, 2019)

Bumping again, fishing for anecdotes
Anyone?


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## Riklet (Mar 4, 2019)

Still paying a few quid every month.

Thinking about leaving.


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## cantsin (Mar 4, 2019)

went to a bigger / more regional Mom meet on sat - blew my mind a bit tbh, and not in a good way ( nothing AS related or anything) .

But : it was 50 % young ( +old, with usual demographic gap in the middle ), and keen to engage with socialism (though no one very sure in what form ) , and for now, still seems like the only game in town .


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 4, 2019)

'We are powered by the energy of those new to our party and guided by the experience of those who have chosen to return.'.

Unless you are Jewish of course.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 4, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> 'We are powered by the energy of those new to our party and guided by the experience of those who have chosen to return.'.
> 
> Unless you are Jewish of course.



That’s what Ed and David Miliband said.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 4, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> That’s what Ed and David Miliband said.



The evidence is there, Tom Watson has published some, but keep your head in the sand, safer that way than actually tackling what has become a running sore.


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## chilango (Mar 4, 2019)

Yeah. That 2000odd post thread on the issue we've done, doesn't exist, does it eh Sasaferrato?


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 4, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yeah. That 2000odd post thread on the issue we've done, doesn't exist, does it eh Sasaferrato?



I wasn't aware that this is the Labour party. Urban is a wee bit different.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 4, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> The evidence is there, Tom Watson has published some, but keep your head in the sand, safer that way than actually tackling what has become a running sore.


What??
I am very aware of the slime chucking going on thank you !
Fuck it


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## chilango (Mar 4, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> I wasn't aware that this is the Labour party. Urban is a wee bit different.



Very true.

I thought your inference was that _we_ weren't taking it seriously...


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## YouSir (Mar 4, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> 'We are powered by the energy of those new to our party and guided by the experience of those who have chosen to return.'.
> 
> Unless you are Jewish of course.



How many Momentum or Labour meetings have you been to? How many Labour organised events have you attended?


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## ska invita (Mar 5, 2019)

cantsin said:


> went to a bigger / more regional Mom meet on sat - blew my mind a bit tbh, and not in a good way


please elaborate


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## cantsin (Mar 5, 2019)

ska invita said:


> please elaborate



sorry, started writing out a long response to this, but just felt like bitter, misguided bullsh*t on a public forum - if this thread hangs about for a while, will return to it / reply, when it isn't so easily traceable what / where the meeting was etc


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## chainsawjob (Jun 2, 2020)

I've cancelled my membership.

And joined Acorn renter's rights group instead. Cos it will be more immediate use to me, plus I've been thinking about leaving the Labour Party for a while now, is it really how I want to spend my time/money? I don't contribute much except doing flyers at election time, and don't want to be more involved, I tried local branch meetings, but it's just not me really.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 2, 2020)

Oh there are political/ideological/personnel (Starmer) reasons too, but I cba to go into all that.


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## Sprocket. (Jun 2, 2020)

chainsawjob said:


> Oh there are political/ideological/personnel (Starmer) reasons too, but I cba to go into all that.


Are you a trade union member? You could still be an associate supporter if you are paying the political levy.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 2, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Are you a trade union member? You could still be an associate supporter if you are paying the political levy.



Yep, Unite Community, that's another reason I don't really need LP membership.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 3, 2020)

Metro article said:
			
		

> However, if you fancy adding a little drama to your exit, you can also post a heart-felt, tear-soaked letter direct to your CLP – along with your membership card cut up into a thousand tiny pieces, and a sad mix-tape.



 









						Here's how you can cancel your Labour party membership
					

Breaking up is hard to do




					metro.co.uk


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