# the all new 2005 who's taking a trip to holloway thread



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

so which of y'z reprobates are going to the bookfair? eh?


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## flimsier (Oct 5, 2005)

Why is it in Holloway this year?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Why is it in Holloway this year?


at the request of mr wetherspoon, i believe.


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## easy g (Oct 5, 2005)

I'll try and be there...haven't been for a couple of years


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## kea (Oct 5, 2005)

well, every year i say i'm going and then every year i either miss it, or am in a rush so i can't make the u75 meet-up.
so yes, i'm going this year - whether i turn up is quite another matter tho 

(there IS a u75 meet-up isn't there?)


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## Pilgrim (Oct 5, 2005)

I should be going if I can find the cash.

Hope to see some of you there.


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## Louis MacNeice (Oct 5, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so which of y'z reprobates are going to the bookfair? eh?



Nope off to Herefordshire with Mrs Mac and the kids for half term...have fun though.

Cheers - Louis Mac


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 5, 2005)

i'll be along


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 5, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Why is it in Holloway this year?


Well the old location was just almost TOO working class y'know? We couldn't discuss things for having to fight off the swathes of normal people just wandering through the area.

We know youd rather have stuff in a students union though flim.


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## oisleep (Oct 5, 2005)

will be a busy weekend


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## mk12 (Oct 5, 2005)

I would - but I can't.


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## oisleep (Oct 5, 2005)




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## mk12 (Oct 5, 2005)

I know I know. I'll miss you too.


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## flimsier (Oct 5, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Well the old location was just almost TOO working class y'know? We couldn't discuss things for having to fight off the swathes of normal people just wandering through the area.
> 
> We know youd rather have stuff in a students union though flim.



I just wondered to be honest. I heard rumours ULU had raised prices significantly for everything. 

I don't care where it is. I always intend to go. I used to walk past it at Conway Hall every year when I was a student and lived in Gt Ormond St. This year I'll be in Prague though.


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## oisleep (Oct 5, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I know I know. I'll miss you too.



are you sending a video message?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> I just wondered to be honest. I heard rumours ULU had raised prices significantly for everything.
> 
> I don't care where it is. I always intend to go. I used to walk past it at Conway Hall every year when I was a student and lived in Gt Ormond St. This year I'll be in Prague though.


what stopped you stopping and walking into the event? why have you always intended to go, and then bowled straight past?


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## mk12 (Oct 5, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> are you sending a video message?



I will if I can get this damn camera to work. [bangs camera on table]


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I know I know. I'll miss you too.


perhaps if you took some shooting lessons?

but an attitude like that, that'll just be a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## flimsier (Oct 5, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> what stopped you stopping and walking into the event? why have you always intended to go, and then bowled straight past?



At the time, I didn't have any interest in anarchism or anarchist ideas. It was meeting a Greek anarchist at LSE that got me interested.

So I didn't mean 'always intended'. I meant, 'have intended for a while'.

Apols for the confusion!


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## flimsier (Oct 5, 2005)

I also thought it was just for selling books and nowt else!


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## mk12 (Oct 5, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> I also thought it was just for selling books and nowt else!



Is it not then? What else takes place?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Is it not then? What else takes place?


it's a secret. pay me a fiver and i'll let you into the secret cabal.


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## flimsier (Oct 5, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Is it not then? What else takes place?



It's basically an anarchist marxism, iykwim.


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## rebel warrior (Oct 5, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> it's a secret. pay me a fiver and i'll let you into the secret cabal.



How skint are you mate?  You want £3.50 off me on the Paul Foot thread and now £5 off Matt...


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## mk12 (Oct 5, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> It's basically an anarchist marxism, iykwim.



OK. With Sparts and all?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

rebel warrior said:
			
		

> How skint are you mate?  You want £3.50 off me on the Paul Foot thread and now £5 off Matt...


it's a fuck of a lot cheaper than what the swappie scum want off matt, and at least we let him keep his soul.


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## flimsier (Oct 5, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> OK. With Sparts and all?



No, the Sparts don't bother.


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## mk12 (Oct 5, 2005)

Oh, that's good. 

I was actually looking forward to going to this.


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## oisleep (Oct 5, 2005)

rebel warrior said:
			
		

> You want £3.50 off me on the Paul Foot thread and now £5 off Matt...



what the hell does he want £3.50 for, why such an uneven amount


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> what the hell does he want £3.50 for, why such an uneven amount


rebel's fucked in the head, again.


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## oisleep (Oct 5, 2005)

and you're gonna fix it for only £3.50


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> and you're gonna fix it for only £3.50


cheap pickaxe handle.


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 5, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> OK. With Sparts and all?


...I was about to say, ''no i don't think they'd last long'' but then i realised that was pure pickmans bluster (a la his 'pickaxe handle' comment there). I have to ask, what would happen if the sparts turned up and interrupted and disrupted stuff? If they were really really obnoxious? would they be asked to leave? I think people would probably say 'no i don't want a paper' in their most naughty voice then bitch about it. What do you reckon?

Sorry its a bit of an odd question, i've just watched ID for the first time i think its infected me.


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> ...I was about to say, ''no i don't think they'd last long'' but then i realised that was pure pickmans bluster (a la his 'pickaxe handle' comment there). I have to ask, what would happen if the sparts turned up and interrupted and disrupted stuff? If they were really really obnoxious? would they be asked to leave? I think people would probably say 'no i don't want a paper' in their most naughty voice then bitch about it. What do you reckon?
> 
> Sorry its a bit of an odd question, i've just watched ID for the first time i think its infected me.



they would be removed from the venue


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## flimsier (Oct 6, 2005)

You lot would _love_ it if any Trots cared enough to organise an 'intervention'.


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> You lot would _love_ it if any Trots cared enough to organise an 'intervention'.



yes tbh


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## Isambard (Oct 6, 2005)

and I was thinking of the prison and a hot girl on girl session with the laydeeeee RednBlack!


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> and I was thinking of the prison and a hot girl on girl session with the laydeeeee RednBlack!



had a good session?


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## Isambard (Oct 6, 2005)

Only 5 pints and I've got to get loads of work done before a midday deadline   so don't flatter yourself!


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## WasGeri (Oct 6, 2005)

I'm not sure if we are going - trying to save some money for our holiday.

Although we might, if we can get a lift from Bristol.

Where is it to, exactly?


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## Larry O'Hara (Oct 6, 2005)

*well...*

myself & some _Notes From the Borderland _  colleagues will be there--rumour has it with a new home-produced DVD.  Should Howard Marks turn up, I may have time for a quick word


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## charlie mowbray (Oct 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> You lot would _love_ it if any Trots cared enough to organise an 'intervention'.


Chummy, the SWP, Sparts, , RCG,  ( not to mention outfits like SPGB, ICC)have been standing outside selling their wares for the last few years.
So stick that up your waste pipe!


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## Chuck Wilson (Oct 6, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Chummy, the SWP, Sparts, , RCG,  ( not to mention outfits like SPGB, ICC)have been standing outside selling their wares for the last few years.
> So stick that up your waste pipe!



Who did Chummy split from ? Are they 4th or 5th Internationalists.?


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Chummy, the SWP, Sparts, , RCG,  ( not to mention outfits like SPGB, ICC)have been standing outside selling their wares for the last few years.



If the Sparts show up, they should seriously be forcibly removed, nasty paedo loving scum.


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## charlie mowbray (Oct 6, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Who did Chummy split from ? Are they 4th or 5th Internationalists.?


That's not funny. Don't give up your day job


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## charlie mowbray (Oct 6, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> If the Sparts show up, they should seriously be forcibly removed, nasty paedo loving scum.


Soo you'll be the first to lead the way, will you, Jack?


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## knopf (Oct 6, 2005)

*Jack leading the way, yesterday*


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Who did Chummy split from ? Are they 4th or 5th Internationalists.?



they split from the WRP in the 1970's and briefly merged with the pedigree-workers league (disturbingly nationalist bunch) before branchin out on their own in the early eighties...


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Soo you'll be the first to lead the way, will you, Jack?



i agree with him tbh, i dont reckon they should even be allowed to stand outside scaring people off, unfortunately if a group did decide to see them off, they'd probably be denounced as authoritarian by some of the liberal scum inside...


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 6, 2005)

whats this paedo loving bit?! I don't like the sparts but... Paedophilia?

RnB who gives a fuck? if they turn up and be arseholes kick em out. What are we pacifists?

and no i'm not leading the charge, i'm leading the discussion.


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## Herbert Read (Oct 6, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so which of y'z reprobates are going to the bookfair? eh?



me and my cosh to deal with certain urbanites


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## Herbert Read (Oct 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> It's basically an anarchist marxism, iykwim.



but more interesting and better politics


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## hibee (Oct 6, 2005)

I'm supposed to be up north visiting mrs hibee's parents but I'll see what can be done


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## WasGeri (Oct 6, 2005)

Will somebody please answer my question?


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

Geri said:
			
		

> Will somebody please answer my question?



holloway road is very easy to get to if you're driving in from the west, is that what you wanted to know?


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## joer90 (Oct 6, 2005)

you will be able to get your hands on the new class war hooded top's ASBO in the style of addidas very smart with there launch taking place at blue water shopping centre


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## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> me and my cosh to deal with certain urbanites


name names!


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## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> kick em out. What are we pacifists?


shurely "in"?


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## fanta (Oct 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Why is it in Holloway this year?



Perhaps it isn't.

The obssessed dickhead probably meant to type Galloway rather then Holloway.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Perhaps it isn't.
> 
> The obssessed dickhead probably meant to type Galloway rather then Holloway.




fuckwit!


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## WasGeri (Oct 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> holloway road is very easy to get to if you're driving in from the west, is that what you wanted to know?



No, I wanted to know exactly where it is. "Holloway" and "Holloway Road" is a bit vague, unless there is only one building on Holloway Road.


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 6, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Perhaps it isn't.
> 
> The obssessed dickhead probably meant to type Galloway rather then Holloway.


Thats actually pretty funny.


So is the idea of a bookfair inside Galloway. How would it work? I think what you'd have to do is put him into one of those industrial wood chippers thats you see the council using, collect the pulp, then draw a big ring round wherever the book fair was with it. Then we would be having abookfair inside him... 

Its a toughy actually. Pickmans?


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## WasGeri (Oct 6, 2005)

Well, cheers for that, guys. Luckily someone has sent me a PM to inform me where it is, so I won't be aimlessly wandering the streets after all.


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 6, 2005)

street map dot co dot you kay

geri


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> whats this paedo loving bit?! I don't like the sparts but... Paedophilia?



Michael Jackson Defeats Racist, *Anti-Sex* Vendetta

Their website doesn't seem to have "Nothing wrong with a little bump n grind - Defend R-Kelly!", which was ever more mental.


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Soo you'll be the first to lead the way, will you, Jack?



No, I'll be busy trying to raise a anti-primmo militia, innit.


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 6, 2005)

the sparts said:
			
		

> Sex is a natural activity for humans—even children. We believe that in any kind of sexual relations, the guiding principle should be effective consent, regardless of age, gender or race. That is, if those involved have effective knowledge and desire to do whatever it is they will, that should be the end of it. We oppose arbitrary and reactionary state interference in such intimate matters.


 Class 

theres more!






			
				the sparts said:
			
		

> Young people whose sexuality doesn't fit the capitalist family model of abstinence (for young women anyhow) until marriage, then monotonous monogamy until you die, are treated like outlaws. There are still tens of thousands of people branded as "sex offenders" in this country who have committed no crime and hurt no one, and who have been abandoned by almost everyone, while their lives are made a living hell by computerized "predator" lists


 Poor souls.

This is fucking serious though, this group actively tries to recruit kids IME. And they have no problem with fucking ppl of any age. Oh fucking dear me.


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

It's fucking terrifying to hear them argue this shite in person.

The level of belief that they're right and that if you agree you're deeply reactionary just knocks normal Trot madness off the scale.


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## audiotech (Oct 6, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Class
> 
> theres more! Poor souls.
> 
> This is fucking serious though, this group actively tries to recruit kids IME. And they have no problem with fucking ppl of any age. Oh fucking dear me.



Are you seriously suggesting that this group is involved in recruiting children to sexually abuse them?


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Are you seriously suggesting that this group is involved in recruiting children to sexually abuse them?



i don't think it's too big a leap to make

the bizarre thing is they go on about state repression, and yet support china and north korea what a shower of cunts


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

I doubt they recruit TO abuse (well, not sexually, altho what they do to young, generally very vulnerable and fucked up, recruits IS fucking nasty abuse of a sort), but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened once they're in.

After all, they genuinely believe there's nothing wrong with it.

Vile, vile scum.


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## oisleep (Oct 6, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> The level of belief that they're right



aye, don't you just hate that in a person


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## kropotkin (Oct 6, 2005)

bang to rights!


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> aye, don't you just hate that in a person



I've yet to (virtually) force my face 3 inches from yours and shriek in a hysterical tone that you're a lapdog of reaction, like.


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

whenever i walk past a group of spart scum i just shout 'what about tibet?' at them, and they fuck off understandably


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## oisleep (Oct 6, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> I've yet to (virtually) force my face 3 inches from yours and shriek in a hysterical tone that you're a lapdog of reaction, like.



take out the brackets and your there


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## audiotech (Oct 6, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> I doubt they recruit TO abuse (well, not sexually, altho what they do to young, generally very vulnerable and fucked up, recruits IS fucking nasty abuse of a sort), but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened once they're in.
> 
> After all, they genuinely believe there's nothing wrong with it.
> 
> Vile, vile scum.



What do they do that is 'fucking nasty' to young recruits and where do they say that there's 'nothing wrong' with child abuse?


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

uh oh

we've got a spart here ^


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## audiotech (Oct 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> uh oh
> 
> we've got a spart here ^



Yeah sure, I was once a sparky (as in electrician) if that counts dope brain.


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

y'all look real purty in that frock


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## Isambard (Oct 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> y'all look real purty in that frock



<Glances disbelievingly at own M&S Pyjamas>


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What do they do that is 'fucking nasty' to young recruits



Make them clean the toilets in the offices?  Tell them not to associate with friends from other political tendencies?  Hammer home a line and belittle them systematically if they deviate?  Force them to move university so they can be closer to the group and further away from 'anti-communist' forces?  Force upon them a level of hyper-politicisation that makes it impossible for them to have a normal social life?  Make them think it's acceptable to only only dress like Lenin and have a stupid fucking Soviet Union coat, but to also have a fucking Lenin beard?  Jesus I hate that dick.



> where do they say that there's 'nothing wrong' with child abuse?



I think refering to the Michael Jackson trials as an *Anti-Sex* vendetta pretty much shows that, no?

Whether you think he's innocent or not, they refer to child abuse trials as "anti-sex".  Therefore, they consider child abuse sex.


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> Whether you think he's innocent or not, they refer to child abuse trials as "anti-sex".  Therefore, they consider child abuse sex.



they also think it is acceptable for a 35 year old to have sex with a 14 year old...


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## cats hammers (Oct 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> they also think it is acceptable for a 35 year old to have sex with a 14 year old...



And indeed for said 35 year old to urinate on said same 14 year old.

On tape.


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## rednblack (Oct 6, 2005)

that reminds me, do you still want to borrow it?


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## blamblam (Oct 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> that reminds me, do you still want to borrow it?


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## Chuck Wilson (Oct 7, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> That's not funny. Don't give up your day job



Yessum boss.


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## cats hammers (Oct 7, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> that reminds me, do you still want to borrow it?



Naw.

Soulseek works fine for me.


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## charlie mowbray (Oct 7, 2005)

No , not Galloway the man, but Galloway the Scots county. Will make achange to London!!



			
				Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Thats actually pretty funny.
> 
> 
> So is the idea of a bookfair inside Galloway. How would it work? I think what you'd have to do is put him into one of those industrial wood chippers thats you see the council using, collect the pulp, then draw a big ring round wherever the book fair was with it. Then we would be having abookfair inside him...
> ...


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## Paul Marsh (Oct 7, 2005)

So Charlie, any of this on your stall this year?


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What do they do that is 'fucking nasty' to young recruits and where do they say that there's 'nothing wrong' with child abuse?


i don't know maybe in the quotes fkin posted earlier on this fred sherlock 

Mr Marsh your being mean to the other boys and girls there, i think.


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## Herbert Read (Oct 7, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> name names!



the nihilst enforcment unit demands the head of LLETSA asa well as punishment beatings to hibee, and re education classes to be held by comrade pickmans maybe, for the afore mentioned counter revolutionaries.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 7, 2005)

Is there any actual evidence that the Sparts are a CIA front?

I tried a google search on this a while back, and all I got was press stories of them picketing Chomsky's public appearances on the grounds that he was soft on US imperialism.

Oh, how we laughed.


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## hibee (Oct 7, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> No , not Galloway the man, but Galloway the Scots county. Will make achange to London!!



Galloway goes to Galloway


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> Make them clean the toilets in the offices?  Tell them not to associate with friends from other political tendencies?  Hammer home a line and belittle them systematically if they deviate?  Force them to move university so they can be closer to the group and further away from 'anti-communist' forces?  Force upon them a level of hyper-politicisation that makes it impossible for them to have a normal social life?  Make them think it's acceptable to only only dress like Lenin and have a stupid fucking Soviet Union coat, but to also have a fucking Lenin beard?  Jesus I hate that dick.



You've just made that up.



> I think refering to the Michael Jackson trials as an *Anti-Sex* vendetta pretty much shows that, no?



No.



> Whether you think he's innocent or not, they refer to child abuse trials as "anti-sex".  Therefore, they consider child abuse sex.



No they don't, they believe in the right to privacy and the right to consensual sexual relations. They also reject all laws that criminalise consensual sex for youth.


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## Random (Oct 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> They also reject all laws that criminalise consensual sex for youth.



And for middle aged men and youth.

Edit: are you you're not a spart?  Don't see what other reason there is to defend this lot


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i don't know maybe in the quotes fkin posted earlier on this fred sherlock



You 'don't know' and 'maybe in the quotes' is not good enough Dr Watson?


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> And for middle aged men and youth.
> 
> Edit: are you you're not a spart?  Don't see what other reason there is to defend this lot



What about middle aged men and youth?

I'm not defending anyone here. If someone decides to post scurrilous nonsense then they can expect to be pulled up on it.


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## Random (Oct 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What about middle aged men and youth?



THe sparts seem to think that Jackson (a middle aged man) has the right to sleep with children, and are defending this right.  Don't you agree?


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## charlie mowbray (Oct 7, 2005)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> So Charlie, any of this on your stall this year?


Nope


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## rednblack (Oct 7, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Nope


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## Top Dog (Oct 7, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Nope


really? i heard that you were broadening your repertoire into the areas of chutneys and stir-in sauces...


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> THe sparts seem to think that Jackson (a middle aged man) has the right to sleep with children, and are defending this right.  Don't you agree?



Why do you think that sleeping with children is sexual abuse? Let's face it, there are probably middle aged fathers out there doing just that on occasions, when their children need reassurance, if they're ill for example - doesn't make them "abusers" does it?

Has Jackson slept with children other than his own? I think he mentioned in the interview with Martin Bashir that children had slept in the same room as him, but not in his bed. Jackson steadfastly maintains that he has been asexual in his relations with boys. A jury member said that "Things just didn't add up." with regard to the prosecution case.

Anyway, that's not what this organisation is defending, but rather this:



> We fight for people's right to have consensual sex with whomever they choose. Or to look at pornography. Or to do nothing at all.



Now, you may spin this to include children in the 'whomever', but it is clear that it is young people they are defending against 'imposing abstinence, guilt and fear' about them 'wanting to have sex' and also the state attempting to 'enforce puritanical values pushed by religion, and provide a moral justification for government interference in all other aspects of life'.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2005)

what are you doing to my beautiful thread?  





			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Why do you think that sleeping with children is sexual abuse? Let's face it, there are probably middle aged fathers out there doing just that on occasions, when their children need reassurance, if they're ill for example - doesn't make them "abusers" does it?
> 
> Has Jackson slept with children other than his own? I think he mentioned in the interview with Martin Bashir that children had slept in the same room as him, but not in his bed. Jackson steadfastly maintains that he has been asexual in his relations with boys. A jury member said that "Things just didn't add up." with regard to the prosecution case.
> 
> ...


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2005)

I didn't start this bollocks.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I didn't start this bollocks.


ok! 

*puts away kneecappery book*


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## hibee (Oct 7, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> the nihilst enforcment unit demands the head of LLETSA asa well as punishment beatings to hibee, and re education classes to be held by comrade pickmans maybe, for the afore mentioned counter revolutionaries.



If I do decide to attend I'll look out for someone in a black hoodie and a bandana who looks like he couldn't dish out "punishment beatings" to Andy Pandy.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2005)

hibee said:
			
		

> If I do decide to attend I'll look out for someone in a black hoodie and a bandana who looks like he couldn't dish out "punishment beatings" to Andy Pandy.


it's very difficult to adequately punish a counter-revolutionary puppet.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2005)

hibee said:
			
		

> If I do decide to attend I'll look out for someone in a black hoodie and a bandana who looks like he couldn't dish out "punishment beatings" to Andy Pandy.


it's very difficult to adequately punish a counter-revolutionary puppet.


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## gurrier (Oct 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Now, you may spin this to include children in the 'whomever', but it is clear that it is young people they are defending against 'imposing abstinence, guilt and fear' about them 'wanting to have sex' and also the state attempting to 'enforce puritanical values pushed by religion, and provide a moral justification for government interference in all other aspects of life'.


The sparts frequently defend NAMBLA (north american man-boy love association - a paedophile ring) in their publications.  They denounced michael jackson's trial as an Anti-Sex vendetta (meaning that they weren't talking about non-sexual episodes of children sleeping beside adults).  

For a few years, whenever one of their three Dublin members (all imported from north america) came across the WSM, they would harrangue us for supporting 'castration of all men'.  On the one occasion that I bothered to ask them where they got this abjectly lunatic idea from, they informed me that it was a logical consequence of our 'anti-sex' attitude as evidenced by a front page story that we had published in Workers Solidarity.  

The headline was something like "get the child rapists out of the classrooms" beside a picture of a catholic priest.  I consider that to be fairly conclusive proof of their support for paedophiles.  

On the other hand, beating them up or chasing them away would bestow far too much importance upon them and make them feel like the 'heroic revolutionary vanguard of the oppressed proletariat' that they long to be.  Pointing and laughing is much more appropriate and effective as a means of demoralising them.

are you really a 'spart in cyberspaaaaaaaaace'?

*points and sniggers*


----------



## scumbalina (Oct 7, 2005)

Sorry to put the thread back on track, but aye, I'll be there, flogging Norwich Anarchists wares....it will be the unveiling of the new issue of our paper so we'll probably be under a table, furiously folding the fuckers.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 7, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> are you really a 'spart in cyberspaaaaaaaaace'?
> 
> *points and sniggers*



No, as I said, not a spart. Although I could become a member of your sect. Now that would really piss me off.

*gives finger and snorts*


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You 'don't know' and 'maybe in the quotes' is not good enough Dr Watson?


it came from their site u plum


----------



## mk12 (Oct 8, 2005)

*Breaking News*

I may be able to come.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

i'll see yz in the coronet then.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 8, 2005)

Will we all be wearing urban nametags?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Will we all be wearing urban nametags?


no - most of us know each other irl.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 8, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Will we all be wearing urban nametags?



do you think mattkidds 1 through 11 will be showing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> do you think mattkidds 1 through 11 will be showing?


best not mentioned, on a family website like this.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no - most of us know each other irl.



_most_. Although i'll probably be able to spot _you_.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> _most_. Although i'll probably be able to spot _you_.


yeh, look for poor fucker being followed by the fit team.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 8, 2005)

Or...the only person in the building wearing this:


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Or...the only person in the building wearing this:


 

i'm much more likely to be wearing one of these:


----------



## mk12 (Oct 8, 2005)

Only $11.99.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Only $11.99.


and it doesn't involved selling my soul to the forces of darkness.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 8, 2005)

Nope - just to an American capitalist. Still, at least it's not going to his gorgeousness!


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> it came from their site u plum



Well why did you say you didn't know and maybe it was u pomegranate


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Well why did you say you didn't know and maybe it was u pomegranate


Look i'll ive you some examples of obvious sarcasm for future reference:

man outside pub: 
'Do you you know where i could by a pint of beer arounf here?

Man leaning out of pub window: 
'Well i don't know, maybe you could try the fucking pub?'

Got there yet mate? 

Ta


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> So Charlie, any of this on your stall this year?


more chance of this, i expect:


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Look i'll ive you some examples of obvious sarcasm for future reference:
> 
> man outside pub:
> 'Do you you know where i could by a pint of beer arounf here?
> ...



What if said man is in Saudi Arabia?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What if said man is in Saudi Arabia?


then it's in the compound.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> then it's in the compound.



....and a good lashing from the landlord after times called.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)

shurely "lashings of ginger beer"?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> shurely "lashings of ginger beer"?



With a lemonade top please.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2005)




----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2005)

I always preferred the Bobbsey twins.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 9, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What if said man is in Saudi Arabia?


Yes....

In that case a man asks another man leaning out of a mosque, ''where does a bloke get a few prayers in round here?''. The anology stands, despite your sub par attempts at wit


----------



## audiotech (Oct 9, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Yes....
> 
> In that case a man asks another man leaning out of a mosque, ''where does a bloke get a few prayers in round here?''. The anology stands, despite your sub par attempts at wit



What if said man is a Christian?


----------



## miss giggles (Oct 9, 2005)

I'll be there, in Tony Allens' "performance club" room. Come say hello, he always puts good acts on


----------



## gurrier (Oct 9, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> ...Although I could become a member of your sect. Now that would really piss me off....


Why would you do something that would really piss you off?  
Are you based in Ireland, if not how could you become a member of an Irish organisation?  
On what basis do you describe the WSM as a sect?

Or, to put it another way, that's a really weak put down, you arse.  It's interesting to see somebody getting irked in such a way over this particular issue.  Do you have any further defences of the Sparts pro-paedophilia line?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 9, 2005)

look guys there is a very very weak argument that people over 12 should be allowed to have consensual sex - if that is MC5's view, then mate, take it get done with it. 

The dutch model seems to be a good idea in my view (you can have sex with people more or less within your own age bracket up to about 18 - 12 can shag 14, 15 can poke 18... more or less). It is predatory sexual advances by people 3 times the age of the minor which is the problem, esp. those using money and power (money, celebrity or divinity) or a position of trust to get their target.

What the sparts are clearly saying is that anyone can have sex with anyone of any age and the cases they choose to defend are clear cases of abuse. Which argument are you associating yourself with here MC5?

And no, you didn't 'start it' but you are the ONLY person i have ever seen defend this incredibly fucked uo piece of spart policy.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 9, 2005)

I'll be there


----------



## hibee (Oct 9, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> do you think mattkidds 1 through 11 will be showing?



 

*wipes spluttered tea off monitor*


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 9, 2005)

[didn't really get it TBH]

Is anyone going to post the program or at least what the program may be? I think we might as well start discussing it now, its years away. I remember a well attended community organising meeting that was really good.

That remeinds me actually...


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 9, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> [didn't really get it TBH]
> 
> Is anyone going to post the program or at least what the program may be? I think we might as well start discussing it now, its years away. I remember a well attended community organising meeting that was really good.
> 
> That remeinds me actually...


http://freespace.virgin.net/anarchist.bookfair/progr2005.pdf

Edit: you can also find a guide to what's on here:
http://freespace.virgin.net/anarchist.bookfair/


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

Is this event _just_ Saturday?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Is this event _just_ Saturday?


isn't 24 hours long enough for you?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 9, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> Why would you do something that would really piss you off?
> Are you based in Ireland, if not how could you become a member of an Irish organisation?
> On what basis do you describe the WSM as a sect?



Sorry, confused the Irish Workers Solidarity Movement with the World Socialist Movement.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> isn't 24 hours long enough for you?



Is it Saturday-Sunday, or just Saturday?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Is it Saturday-Sunday, or just Saturday?


it's enough to make me turn to sniffing glue...

it's fucking saturday!


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

Cheers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2005)

yr alright!

but i'll have a bottle of sparkling water off you in the coronet.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

> Coronet:
> 
> A small crown worn by princes and princesses and by other nobles below the rank of sovereign.
> 
> ...


----------



## audiotech (Oct 9, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> look guys there is a very very weak argument that people over 12 should be allowed to have consensual sex - if that is MC5's view, then mate, take it get done with it.
> 
> The dutch model seems to be a good idea in my view (you can have sex with people more or less within your own age bracket up to about 18 - 12 can shag 14, 15 can poke 18... more or less). It is predatory sexual advances by people 3 times the age of the minor which is the problem, esp. those using money and power (money, celebrity or divinity) or a position of trust to get their target.
> 
> ...



If sex with anyone of any age includes sex between prepubescent children and adults then clearly that is indeed a fucked up policy whoever puts it forward. I read it as being about an issue to do with age of consent for homosexuals in the US. Rather than defending the policy as you put it, I was trying to understand what their actual policy is on the subject.



> We believe that in any kind of sexual relations, the guiding principle should be effective consent, regardless of age, gender or race. That is, if those involved have effective knowledge and desire to do whatever it is they will, that should be the end of it.



I would have thought that referring to effective consensual sex, along with effective knowledge, makes clear they are not condoning predatory, sexual abuse on anyone and particularly children?

The Dutch model is the reality for most teens there and here.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

>



http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/63/6320/Coronet/Holloway


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)




----------



## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

<scotsman> i bent down that fast to pick that up it hit me on the back of the heid </scotsman>


----------



## justuname (Oct 9, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> You lot would _love_ it if any Trots cared enough to organise an 'intervention'.



Well No Sweat are running a meeting and they're run by a trot group, the alliance for workers liberty. Good they're there if you ask me, must have got in under the radar of the more sectarian anarchos.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

also are that conspiracy 9/11 group not there as well, no plane or something like that


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

Have Bookmarks ever been to this event?


----------



## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

what event?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

Anarchist Bookfair.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

ah, when's that then?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 9, 2005)

Sigh.


----------



## gurrier (Oct 9, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Sorry, confused the Irish Workers Solidarity Movement with the World Socialist Movement.


No worries, I should have made it clearer. 

At least 3 members of the WSM (irish one) will be at the bookfair and maybe as many as 8.  Sadly I won't be able to make it this year though.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 10, 2005)

Hmmmm, me and Red Cat might make it this year.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

Will anybody be selling second hand books?


----------



## oisleep (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Will anybody be selling second hand books?



where?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

Mr Grumble is never content. No matter what happens, he grumbles and complains about it. On a lovely day, he'd say "Bah, I hate the hot sun!" and when it snows he'd complain about the cold - he's never satisfied! And when Oisleep refuses to answer a simple question, he'd go "for fucks sake, answer the damn question!"


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

What about Mr Tickle?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

"Mr Tickle likes nothing more than to tickle any unfortunate passers by."

Reminds me of someone on this thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> "Mr Tickle likes nothing more than to tickle any unfortunate passers by."
> 
> Reminds me of someone on this thread.


 Ryazan is making an effort - don't ruin it for him.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Will anybody be selling second hand books?



yes, lots of them


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes, lots of them



Woo hoo!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

I've bought all the good ones already though.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 10, 2005)

i heard a rumour last night, that frankie jawbone may put in an appearance


----------



## rednblack (Oct 10, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> i heard a rumour last night, that frankie jawbone may put in an appearance



he's going on the caberet stage


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I've bought all the good ones already though.








Mr Greedy is the greediest person alive. When he comes to visit, make sure there's no [books] lying around or [they] will soon be gone.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Mr Greedy is the greediest person alive. When he comes to visit, make sure there's no [books] lying around or [they] will soon be gone.



Mr Sneaking Puppy laughs at Mr. Forgetful of the SWP.

(yep, sent off about 4pm today mate)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

>


in't that a picture of mr galloway?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> in't that a picture of mr galloway?


 For the elder anarchos - Mr Meltzer?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> For the elder anarchos - Mr Meltzer?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

I saw a Tintin book on the A-Fed stall at the Stop the War march. Was that made by an anarchist group, or is it a genuine Tintin book?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I saw a Tintin book on the A-Fed stall at the Stop the War march. Was that made by an anarchist group, or is it a genuine Tintin book?


are the two mutually exclusive?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

You know what I mean.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> You know what I mean.


it's not by herge, if that's what you mean.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I saw a Tintin book on the A-Fed stall at the Stop the War march. Was that made by an anarchist group, or is it a genuine Tintin book?


 It's one of ours (I don't mean the AF by that):

http://tintinrevolution.free.fr/pages/image001.html


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

What about copyright etc?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 10, 2005)

I don't know about anyone else, but I never did understand quite why Tintin had to be the star of that particular story.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> What about copyright etc?


 What about it?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> What about copyright etc?



who cares?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeh it should of been Snowy or that fat opera singer bird that had a wide on for Captain Haddock... Or thompson and Thompson.

WTF?


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

I was just wondering if the people who made it had any problems with that type of stuff.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if the people who made it had any problems with that type of stuff.



no.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if the people who made it had any problems with that type of stuff.


 Cowards flinch


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if the people who made it had any problems with that type of stuff.


none whatsoever.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 10, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if the people who made it had any problems with that type of stuff.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 10, 2005)

Oisleep:






Mr Funny lives in a teapot shaped house, and drives a shoe shaped car. If there's something funny that he can do, Mr Funny will do it. You'd better get ready to laugh when Mr Funny visits!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2005)

When you make a snowman, usually they're pretty inanimate. But if a semi-trot vacillating centrist snowman was to come to life, Mr Snow would be the result.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2005)




----------



## oisleep (Oct 10, 2005)

best thread ever


----------



## rednblack (Oct 10, 2005)




----------



## In Bloom (Oct 10, 2005)




----------



## rednblack (Oct 10, 2005)

'mr bagel maynot be tickly, or sad, or bumpy, or greedy, or worried, or happy, but he tastes lovely with smoked salmon, and cream cheese'


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> When you make a snowman, usually they're pretty inanimate. But if a semi-trot vacillating centrist snowman was to come to life, Mr Snow would be the result.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 11, 2005)

so when and where is the meet up


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> so when and where is the meet up


the way this threads going, I suggest the middle lane of Holloway Road at one o clock


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> so when and where is the meet up


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

if you cant beat em...


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 11, 2005)

some one pm me when we have finished posting mr men with a place,date and time


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> some one pm me when we have finished posting mr men with a place,date and time


tradition decrees that it will *have* to be a pub called the Dolphin. Only problem is there arent any pubs called that in holloway. Not even remotely fishy ones


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

I thought it was the Coronet, or something?


----------



## knopf (Oct 11, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> so when and where is the meet up



You can come to the libcom meetup, Herbert. _We're_ not pissing about with pics of Mr Men.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 11, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> You can come to the libcom meetup, Herbert. _We're_ not pissing about with pics of Mr Men.




PM me and ill come


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> You can come to the libcom meetup, Herbert. _We're_ not pissing about with pics of Mr Men.


is it a virtual meet up?


----------



## knopf (Oct 11, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> is it a virtual meet up?



Might be.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

Well done knopf, Top Dog and Herbert Read. You have successfully:







...this thread.


----------



## Random (Oct 11, 2005)

Time for the libcom meet up currently lies at 3pm, the Wetherspoons next door to the bookfair 

http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6426

Not sure if I'll make any of the meet ups; I'm doing talks until 5pm, and by that time everyone else will be legless.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> by that time everyone else will be legless.


i won't be.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Time for the libcom meet up currently lies at 3pm, the Wetherspoons next door to the bookfair


cheap and close to the venue, tho the coronet is, its crap for gatherings of more than half a dozen people together and will be hideously busy in its own right before the likes of us wander in... But never fear, top dog's here, and i have a couple of class reserve venues in mind should the neverspoons be predictably useless... but i shall keep em up my sleeve and PM them around for the time being. 

Might even allow matt to bring his choochoo set


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i won't be.


no... and you'll be sat over by yourself in the non-smoking section


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

Is there anywhere online I can see the timetable for meetings?


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 11, 2005)

Should be an interesting day.

Who knows, maybe RW and Co. will show up, hoping to sell papers and bag a few recruits.

Or is that sell out basic principles and expel dissenting recruits?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Is there anywhere online I can see the timetable for meetings?


You could try www.anarchistbookfair.org Then click: *What's On*


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

Excellent, cheers.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 11, 2005)

...


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 11, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Excellent, cheers.



Be warned that, should you print it off, it will take ages and need 16 pages of A4.

At least it did on my computer.

Looking forward to my first Anarchist Bookfair though, should be an eye-opener.


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

Will they be handing out timetables, or will it save the organisers money if I just print it off?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 11, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Will they be handing out timetables, or will it save the organisers money if I just print it off?


programmes are handed put on the door, but all donations are gladly received. 

You can print them off as a pdf from the site too


----------



## rednblack (Oct 11, 2005)

mattkidd12 said:
			
		

> Will they be handing out timetables, or will it save the organisers money if I just print it off?



a pound would be nice if you take one off them, or you could print one off for free


----------



## mk12 (Oct 11, 2005)

I'll give you more than that!


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 11, 2005)

*wait a minute*

libcom are having having a meet up in the same place at the same time?

great i can see all my pals in CAG again


----------



## shortygoldtooth (Oct 12, 2005)

I look forward to seeing many of you there.


----------



## rich! (Oct 17, 2005)

Bumped the thread 'cos it's this weekend...


----------



## hibee (Oct 17, 2005)

As promised, I had a hopeful word with mrs hibee about whether I could attend.

me: You know we're supposed to be going to see your folks this weekend? Well, I thought I might stay in town and do something else.
MH: What's that?
me: Er, go to a Wetherspoons with all these people I met over the internet.

Didn't go down well. Enjoy yourselves without me.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 17, 2005)

you and ern were my pole of attraction for a non-aligned section of the bootsale


----------



## hibee (Oct 17, 2005)

You'll just have to fly the white flag for me, comrade - if you see rebel, try and sell him a copy of weekly worker.


----------



## catch (Oct 17, 2005)

So is the urban meetup the same time/place as the libcom one. Since we're nearly all the same people it'd make sense no?


----------



## rich! (Oct 17, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> So is the urban meetup the same time/place as the libcom one. Since we're nearly all the same people it'd make sense no?


No, I think you'll find we're not.
F#in commies.  

(Ahem)

The coronet is certainly big enough for two groups of people to meet in it at once. Given that this is a Saturday, probably there will already be two groups. Can someone nip in there and find out what proper beer they're likely to have on on Saturday?


----------



## catch (Oct 17, 2005)

We could always go in the Ché pub in Holloway and cause trouble


----------



## rich! (Oct 17, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> We could always go in the Ché pub in Holloway and cause trouble


Actually, I think a Bookfair mob could cause trouble in pretty much any pub.

In fact, I'd be a little disappointed if they didn't.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 17, 2005)

rich! said:
			
		

> No, I think you'll find we're not.
> F#in commies.
> 
> (Ahem)
> ...



aye, will be packed on a saturday any roads tho

"two groups" sounds like a big gemme of british bulldog will ensue once all assmebled


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 17, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> "two groups" sounds like a big gemme of british bulldog will ensue once all assmebled


Sounds like a plan to me


----------



## oisleep (Oct 17, 2005)

bagsy not on revol's side!


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 18, 2005)

I'm studying at London Met at Holloway Road. Who's doing the propaganda stuff? I'd like to help.


----------



## rich! (Oct 18, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> I'm studying at London Met at Holloway Road. Who's doing the propaganda stuff? I'd like to help.


You started with



			
				bookfair said:
			
		

> To contact us:
> 
> ANARCHIST BOOKFAIR
> 
> ...


didn't you?


----------



## blamblam (Oct 18, 2005)

What time's this gonna be? The libcom meet's at 3 in there. Would make sense to me doing both simultaneously (though will be nightmare with the name badges... )


----------



## oisleep (Oct 18, 2005)

3pm, just go to the pub, don't over formalise everything or you'll put off non-aligned persons like myself, ern and hibee


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 18, 2005)

*WTF is goinjg on?*

i'll just call pickmans he'll know.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 18, 2005)

yeah bet he's hanging out to meet all of libcom, make his day so it will!


----------



## blamblam (Oct 18, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> 3pm, just go to the pub, don't over formalise everything or you'll put off non-aligned persons like myself, ern and hibee


No no we need organisation!! We'll need an agenda, and a chair. I shall generously put myself forward for the latter.


----------



## oisleep (Oct 18, 2005)

that's very kind, i'll need a chair, you youngsters can stand mind


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 18, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> No no we need organisation!! We'll need an agenda, and a chair.


fascist! we need a facilitator _not_ a chair


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 18, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> fascist! we need a facilitator _not_ a chair


*waggles hands*


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 18, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> *waggles hands*


*shakes fist*


----------



## rednblack (Oct 18, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> *shakes fist*



you love all that hand waggling


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 18, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> you love all that hand waggling


shhh... dont tell them!


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 18, 2005)




----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 18, 2005)

"Mammy! Mammy! I'd walk a million miles for one of your smiles, my mammy!"
Al Jolson


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 18, 2005)

"Hand jive, hand jive, doing that crazy hand jive!"
Johnny Otis- Willie and the Hand Jive


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> "Hand jive, hand jive, doing that crazy hand jive!"
> Johnny Otis- Willie and the Hand Jive


hmm...

there's a certain implication there i wonder if anyone else can spot...


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 18, 2005)

You'd not be the first to notice that. Oddly enough, Stiff Pilchard covered that song in the UK


----------



## blamblam (Oct 18, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> fascist! we need a facilitator _not_ a chair


Nah. I'm old-school (like Happy Shopper)


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 18, 2005)

OK a very late fleeting entrance into this thread for me ...

I've been to the bookfair at least 3 previous times, unlikely to be able to make N7 on Saturday though 

Some of the more hedonistic minded of you (bleedin lifestylers!   ) might be interested in Saturday night's *OKUPATIONAL HAZARD PARTY* (likely to be South London, mind, although there's a risk that may change  ... ).

'Okupational Hazard' thread on Music Forum 

Okupational Hazard website with lineup, etc. 

Some of the people involved with setting this up have anarcho/direct activist/road protest etc. backgrounds and whether you're into all that or not, it looks likely to be  a good party -- the Inner Terrestrials rock! 

Maybe see some of you there. 

*Apologies* if winston smith or anyone else has already posted those links into this thread earlier -- I've only read some of the pages ...


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 18, 2005)

well the subhumans _are_ playing, but there is no techno whatsoever... I'd rather just get pissed with whoever is left from the bookfair. Holloway is alright.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 18, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> well the subhumans _are_ playing, but *there is no techno whatsoever*... I'd rather just get pissed with whoever is left from the bookfair. Holloway is alright.



That's why I'm going!!! 

(not really, well not altogether -- it's the likely partygoers and the likely localness to home that appeals to me as much as the lineup ... )


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 18, 2005)

suit yourself.

There won't be any techno in a pub in holloway either but hey ho.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 18, 2005)

shortygoldtooth said:
			
		

> I look forward to seeing many of you there.


I had a look over all your posts cos i didn't recognise your name, and none of them were really about politics...

Nice to meet new people i suppose


----------



## winjer (Oct 18, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> well the subhumans _are_ playing, but there is no techno whatsoever... I'd rather just get pissed with whoever is left from the bookfair. Holloway is alright.


Subhumans is on the 31st, not OH4.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 19, 2005)

that settles it then - no squat parties post bookfair.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 19, 2005)

Latecomer to thread asks - WHEN is the urban meet-up? I'm not trawling through 7 pages of shaking fists and RW jibes 

There's a few of us coming up from Cardiff for the day, just to give the met something to follow around and let the rest of yous enjoy yerselves 

Where will yas be and when? If I can work up the enthusiasm, like...


----------



## coffeemachine (Oct 19, 2005)

if people want to talk politics in a formal but convivial setting (i know not really the sort of thing you crave at the bookfair but..) there's always the Anarchist Assembly. 1pm - 2pm, in the dome room.

A bit of a hefty task but I'm sure it'll make the refreshments consumed afterwards all the more worthwhile.

Anarchist Assembly@Anarchist Bookfair


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 20, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Where will yas be and when? If I can work up the enthusiasm, like...



those of us coming from Dublin will be leaving soon to start the long paddle accross the water .... we too would appreciate a where and when ... even just a where would be nice. Can a londoner suggest a pub?


----------



## blamblam (Oct 20, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> those of us coming from Dublin will be leaving soon to start the long paddle accross the water .... we too would appreciate a where and when ... even just a where would be nice. Can a londoner suggest a pub?


It's at the wetherspoons next door.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> It's at the wetherspoons next door.



OI  that's the libcom meet, not the grown up one


----------



## blamblam (Oct 20, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> OI  that's the libcom meet, not the grown up one


I thought it'd been decided to combine them?


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 20, 2005)

Hasn't monty got a large squat nearby that he could do out for the day?


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 20, 2005)

for fucks sake when is the meet up


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> I thought it'd been decided to combine them?



i think it's a mad idea, have you ever been in that pub on a saturday?


----------



## gurrier (Oct 20, 2005)

12 pages and still a seeming failure to organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery (-owned pub)   

Can't we draft a vanguard in temporarily to sort it?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

ffs you lot... 

well as r'n'b knows it is with great regret and reluctance that would i tear myself away from a wetherspoons outlet at any time  , but in such exceptional circumstances can I propose an alternative of the *Big Red * bar on Holloway Road (at the Nags head junction 200 metres north)? Its got a cracking jukebox, decent (not too expensive) beer and all the cowboy americana kitsch you could hope for... anyone up for it? 

and anyone up for sorting out an urban line dancing troupe?


----------



## catch (Oct 20, 2005)

splitter, external faction etc.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 20, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> 12 pages and still a seeming failure to organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery (-owned pub)
> 
> Can't we draft a vanguard in temporarily to sort it?



Aye, I thought I was late to the dance, but apparently it does seem like dozens of pages of Mr Men piccies does not a revolution make. No wonder the FIT team don't reckon there's anything worth filming at the bookfair 

So do you reckon there's still time left to organise the meet-up for the 2006 Bookfair? I propose the Dempsey's pub opposite Cardiff Castle...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> 12 pages and still a seeming failure to organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery (-owned pub)
> 
> Can't we draft a vanguard in temporarily to sort it?


the thing is - and it's something i would have hoped that people would have noticed in earlier years - that @ists will congregate in the coronet - and likely this other pub mentioned a few posts above - from opening time onwards. why we need to get all fucking authoritarian and fucking set a fucking time for something which will happen on and off all bloody afternoon's beyond me. 

anyway, i'll almost certainly be in the pub from 1405, holding court in the coronet.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> why we need to get all fucking authoritarian and fucking set a fucking time for something which will happen on and off all bloody afternoon's beyond me.



Cos the likes of me will only recognise about 2 posters from this list.

But if it is all about avoiding me, fire ahead _<whistles insouciantly>_


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> splitter, external faction etc.


excuse me... ahem... external f*r*action, if you dont mind


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Cos the likes of me will only recognise about 2 posters from this list.
> 
> But if it is all about avoiding me, fire ahead _<whistles insouciantly>_


believe me it wont be difficult to recognise the 'puter nerds from the coronet regulars - of which my old fella is one... (thats my dad btw )


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> believe me it wont be difficult to recognise the 'puter nerds from the coronet regulars - of which my old fella is one... (thats my dad btw )


so that's you i should be able to spot...

but what about everyone else?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2005)

Have any of these pubs got a tv for the scores?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so that's you i should be able to spot...


not unless you're a-coming to the hoedown at the big red rodeo


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Have any of these pubs got a tv for the scores?


the red thing td mentioned should...


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Have any of these pubs got a tv for the scores?


Big Red - yay. Coronet - nay. 

Also remember that the scum are at home that day and the pubs in holloway will be crawling with gooners... another reason to keep away from the coronet


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> Big Red - yay. Corenet - nay.
> 
> Remember that the scum are at home that day and the pubs in holloway will be crawling with gooners... another reason to keep away from the coronet


by "the scum" i assume you mean spurs?

last time arsenal played spurs, i saw a ton of filth outside the coronet, waiting for some pasty-faced spurs crew to emerge blinking into the evening light...


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> by "the scum" i assume you mean spurs?


no pickster... the 'gooners' are arsenal... spurs are the 'yids'. I thought you _followed_ the football?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> no pickster... the 'gooners' are arsenal... spurs are the 'yids'. I thought you _followed_ the football?


top dog

the pubs in holloway are *always* filled with gooners - it's widely known as an arsenal area. i thought you meant spurs were at home and you were pointing out the bloody obvious about who drinks in holloway every day.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> top dog
> 
> the pubs in holloway are *always* filled with gooners - it's widely known as an arsenal area. i thought you meant spurs were at home and you were pointing out the bloody obvious about who drinks in holloway every day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

aw! 

yr all flustered! 

have a pint!


----------



## catch (Oct 20, 2005)

mmm, abbot. 

If there's a match on, and no TV in Wetherspoons, that makes it a good choice no?

If all the pubs are rammed, and it's warm outside, we could always take the 271 up to Waterlow Park/Highgate cemetery with some tinnies


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> aw!
> 
> yr all flustered!
> 
> have a pint!









cheers! your round again...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> cheers! you're round again...


 No more mister men.


----------



## past caring (Oct 20, 2005)

Just catching up with this thread....




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> I always preferred the Bobbsey twins.



Is that a Spart fiddling with the lad's shorts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> cheers! you're round again...








carry on, td! 

it's ok, it's td's card behind the bar!


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

anyone watch macintyre on the 6.57 crew last night? funny as fuck


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> carry on, td!
> 
> it's ok, it's td's card behind the bar!


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 22, 2005)

So where's the meet then?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 23, 2005)

how did all that thing outside the coronet end up?  Give or take a car windscreen seemed mainly handbags when i left.


----------



## scumbalina (Oct 23, 2005)

4thwrite said:
			
		

> how did all that thing outside the coronet end up?  Give or take a car windscreen seemed mainly handbags when i left.




I didn't make it this year, but have heard there was shenanigans - I put it down to the U75 meet up.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 23, 2005)

Who got nicked then?  I heard there was a bit of a ruck.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 23, 2005)

i think there were four arrests, no urbanites though


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 23, 2005)

I went to this yesterday and while I don’t want to piss on someone else’s parade I have to say I was very disappointed on a number of levels.

Is this a major event in the Anarchist calendar?

Was it seen as a success?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i think there were four arrests, no urbanites though


don't fuss, there's always next year.


----------



## catch (Oct 23, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> I went to this yesterday and while I don’t want to piss on someone else’s parade I have to say I was very disappointed on a number of levels.
> 
> Is this a major event in the Anarchist calendar?
> 
> Was it seen as a success?



I'm not involved in organising it, and I have a number of problems with it as well - for me it's mainly a chance to meet up with people, and get some good pamphlets and books. I met up with some good people, and bought lots of pamphlets and books, so it was good for me.

What disappointed you on a number of levels?


----------



## max_freakout (Oct 23, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i think there were four arrests, no urbanites though



Didnt count the arrests but i saw EXACTLY what happened, someone from coronet called the police(because some anarchos brought a soundsystem into coronet   ), they came down innocently enough to sort it out(2 police cars), and it all jumped off when one copper asked someone 'can i have a word with you' then people started shouting 'no!', then in a blink of an eye, the coppers had their truncheons out, and very soon there were about 20-30 cop cars and a few vans, coppers with riot shields outside coronet etc etc, i got some GREAT footage on my camera-phone


----------



## catch (Oct 23, 2005)

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/10/326252.html
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/10/326267.html

Best thing about Wetherspoons is you don't have to listen to shit music whilst you're drinking your pint


----------



## gurrier (Oct 23, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/10/326252.html
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/10/326267.html
> 
> Best thing about Wetherspoons is you don't have to listen to shit music whilst you're drinking your pint


   

For fuck's sake, that's pretty fucking embarrassing.  Thousands of anarchists fail to sort out a small bunch of anti-social fuckwits and the predictable ensues.  One of the things that always amazed me about the uk anarchist scene is that there appears to be infinite tolerance of drunken anti-social fuckwittery.


----------



## General Ludd (Oct 23, 2005)

They were sorted out - the sound system was disabled by some of the antifa lads after the crusties refused to turn the damn thing off.  

The police had already been called by then though so there wasn't much way to avoid the predictable scuffles.


----------



## gurrier (Oct 23, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> They were sorted out - the sound system was disabled by some of the antifa lads after the crusties refused to turn the damn thing off.
> 
> The police had already been called by then though so there wasn't much way to avoid the predictable scuffles.


Fair enough, I'm just going on what's up at indymedia.  Still there has to be a way to avoid walking into such predictable and pointless situations.


----------



## gurrier (Oct 23, 2005)

Leaving the embarrassing stuff aside, any feedback on the bootsale itself?  Numbers, meetings, anarchist assembly, that sort of thing?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 23, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> For fuck's sake, that's pretty fucking embarrassing.  Thousands of anarchists fail to sort out a small bunch of anti-social fuckwits and the predictable ensues.  One of the things that always amazed me about the uk anarchist scene is that there appears to be infinite tolerance of drunken anti-social fuckwittery.



you're absolutely right. A thousand anarchists couldn't get the better of 6 coppers who had dragged someone to the ground had him pinned & were giving him a good kicking. Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?

The english anarchists excel themselves in their indifference. As ever.


----------



## General Ludd (Oct 23, 2005)

> Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?


No. I was talking about the fuckwits with the sound system.


----------



## gurrier (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you're absolutely right. A thousand anarchists couldn't get the better of 6 coppers who had dragged someone to the ground had him pinned & were giving him a good kicking. Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?
> 
> The english anarchists excel themselves in their indifference. As ever.


I suppose I should wait until I hear more about it, but from the various internet reports I've seen, it sounds like the dudes with the sound system were acting in a seriously fuckwitted way.  I'm not defending anything the police did, but allowing such predictable, pointless and counter-productive situations to arise is a problem.  I mean bringing a sound system into a pub is a certain way to percipitate a pointless confrontation with the filth.  It's obnoxious, anti-social and more than anything else, it's fucking stupid and irresponsible.  If you're going to do such things which fuck things up for everybody else, you should be told where to go in no uncertain terms.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you're absolutely right. A thousand anarchists couldn't get the better of 6 coppers who had dragged someone to the ground had him pinned & were giving him a good kicking. Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?
> 
> The english anarchists excel themselves in their indifference. As ever.


----------



## catch (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?



What about the ones putting their kids at risk by running up to the police with them to provoke them? Fucking stupid.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 23, 2005)

update: 7 people got nicked that is known of. They are still being held (they will probably be refused bail & appear at highbury magistrates court monday morning). They are looking to charge them with violent disorder. Not sure what everyone was arrested for but at least 2 were for affray (one down from violent disorder, so they're taking it seriously hiking up the charges).

One got nicked for asking why they were nicking someone else & another from indymedia for taking photo's of coppers hitting people.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 23, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> I suppose I should wait until I hear more about it, but from the various internet reports I've seen, it sounds like the dudes with the sound system were acting in a seriously fuckwitted way.  I'm not defending anything the police did, but allowing such predictable, pointless and counter-productive situations to arise is a problem.  I mean bringing a sound system into a pub is a certain way to percipitate a pointless confrontation with the filth.  It's obnoxious, anti-social and more than anything else, it's fucking stupid and irresponsible.  If you're going to do such things which fuck things up for everybody else, you should be told where to go in no uncertain terms.



the dudes with the soundsystem were selfish & arrogant halfwits. The guy from 635 group handled it badly (although i understood his frustration). I'm talking about what went on outside. Doesn't matter who caused what and for what reason but when you see a handful of copers kicking the shit out of one person on the floor who have 2 choices.


----------



## cats hammers (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> The guy from 635 group handled it badly



By not smashing in the sound system much earlier, you mean?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

i missed the initial scuffle, but from what i've been told, the six plod were sergeantless and therefore unable to think for themselves. i saw them looking gormless outside the coronet, but was called away for a few minutes. when i returned, the filth (presumably level ii riot-trained, with short shields) were out and the cops started pushing people n and s. questioning their actions resulted in increased aggression. i overheard one cop telling a woman that the reason they were clearing the area like that was two cops had been stabbed. be that as it may, the initial incident in the coronet was hardly major. 

every year there's some little incident for which it's recalled in later years. sometimes it's people getting pissed up and fighting each other, sometimes it's a bit of graffiti, sometimes it's the arsery of the bouncers. yesterday, a little fuckwittery spiralled into something interesting but nasty at the same time. i don't know if anyone involved in the initial incident - the sound system bit - was arrested: but if they weren't, i hope they spare a thought for the seven people in cells tonight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you're absolutely right. A thousand anarchists couldn't get the better of 6 coppers who had dragged someone to the ground had him pinned & were giving him a good kicking. Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?
> 
> The english anarchists excel themselves in their indifference. As ever.


although, as i've said, i missed the initial bit outside the coronet, i'm led to believe by someone who didn't that one of the plod ended up in tears and that a full and frank discussion was had. perhaps that cop was singularly easy to upset?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> By not smashing in the sound system much earlier, you mean?


it bloody should have been. i was astonished at the complaisant attitude of many of the people in the coronet - in many other pubs the sound system would have survived for far less time.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you're absolutely right. A thousand anarchists couldn't get the better of 6 coppers who had dragged someone to the ground had him pinned & were giving him a good kicking. Presumbly the anti-socials you talk of are the ones who didn't lift a finger when people were getting hit by the police?
> 
> The english anarchists excel themselves in their indifference. As ever.


Lol yeah that was *exactly* the problem with what happened last night.

Bringing a sound system into a Wetherspoons. I think that even surpasses the moron who wrote "you can't cancel Mayday" in the bookfair venue last year. And by quite a long shot, actually.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Lol yeah that was *exactly* the problem with what happened last night.
> 
> Bringing a sound system into a Wetherspoons. I think that even surpasses the moron who wrote "you can't cancel Mayday" in the bookfair venue last year. And by quite a long shot, actually.


i hope there isn't a competition for daftness!

but for sheer idiocy i feel that you'd have to walk a very long way to find something to put last night's sound system arsery into the shade.

i know at least one of the people who was involved in the sound system bit, and i happen to like him. so i am very fucking disappointed that he and some other people thought it a good plan to do what they did.


----------



## shortygoldtooth (Oct 23, 2005)

Come on, is it any surprise that an anarchist gathering kicks off? Hope no one gets too long a sentence.

Oh and I heard that the "sound system " was a shitty ARGOS cd player???!!!

Oh why oh why did noone slap the fuckwitted Fabian?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

shortygoldtooth said:
			
		

> Oh why oh why did one slap the fuckwitted Fabian?


sadly NO ONE slapp'd the fuckwitt'd one.


----------



## shortygoldtooth (Oct 23, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> sadly NO ONE slapp'd the fuckwitt'd one.



Well the crease from his rather thick skull won't go away too soon. He can always get another slap.


----------



## max_freakout (Oct 23, 2005)

I went to that event to learn about anarchism i have come away from it with a distinctly bad feeling about the whole thing. It's a personal identity crisis that i find myself siding with the police in this particular instance


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

max_freakout said:
			
		

> I went to that event to learn about anarchism i have come away from it with a distinctly bad feeling about the whole thing. It's a personal identity crisis that i find myself siding with the police in this particular instance


why do you find yourself siding with the cops?


----------



## shortygoldtooth (Oct 23, 2005)

max_freakout said:
			
		

> I went to that event to learn about anarchism i have come away from it with a distinctly bad feeling about the whole thing. It's a personal identity crisis that i find myself siding with the police in this particular instance



Go join the Lib Dems.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

shortygoldtooth said:
			
		

> Well the crease from his rather thick skull won't go away too soon. He can always get another slap.


----------



## ClassWar (Oct 23, 2005)

*Letter sent to Islington Tribune*

Outside the Coronet pub on Holloway Road on Saturday
night, Islington cops made a crisis out of a drama.
There was no trouble - till they made it. The police
turned up tooled up and attacked a peaceful crowd. At
least one arrested man was trussed up and hooded, like
the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

This was a sad end to a successful Anarchist Bookfair
where thousands of people had enjoyed a peaceful day.

The police riot began when they despatched a number of
aggressive officers to deal with a minor incident in
the Coronet. The calm situation became highly charged
as, in a clearly planned operation, riot police
appeared at the scene and indiscriminately hit everyone 
in their path. They then cleared the area,
forcing people up the road with much brutality and
scant concern for who they hit or shoved. In fact they
vied with each other to see who could push people the
hardest up Holloway Road.

There are serious questions to be answered about the
disgraceful police behaviour. Swearing at the public
and threatening to arrest people who question their
actions are, clearly, acceptable behaviour in Ian
Blair's force. If it's true that we get the police we
deserve, we wonder what the people of Islington have
done.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 23, 2005)

It's a shame the letter didn't mention that the dicks at the pub were dealt with by someone already...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> It's a shame the letter didn't mention that the dicks at the pub were dealt with by someone already...


yeh, the trouble had been stamped on!


----------



## montevideo (Oct 23, 2005)

arrested people update: all been released without charge, bailed to return to angel police station later next week, presumbly to see if they will be charged. 

Voilent disorder still hangs over them, but given there wasn't enough evidence to charge at the time means things are looking a bit more positive.  Given the attitude of the police earlier on - one of the arrested was beaten up in the police van, all kept on 'suicide watch' (woken up every ten minutes to make sure they were awake (!!!) it seems practical sense has prevailed & they're waiting for the cctv to come through. 

The radical liberal anti-social lib comers should be recognised for the lifestyle bulshitters they are & be confined to the dustbin of history as soon as. Happy to do the honours.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> arrested people update: all been released without charge, bailed to return to angel police station later next week, presumbly to see if they will be charged.
> 
> Voilent disorder still hangs over them, but given there wasn't enough evidence to charge at the time means things are looking a bit more positive.  Given the attitude of the police earlier on - one of the arrested was beaten up in the police van, all kept on 'suicide watch' (woken up every ten minutes to make sure they were awake (!!!) it seems practical sense has prevailed & they're waiting for the cctv to come through.
> 
> The radical liberal anti-social lib comers should be recognised for the lifestyle bulshitters they are & be confined to the dustbin of history as soon as. Happy to do the honours.


thank fuck they're out! 

vy sorry to hear about their treatment inside. 

are you  "openly caggist"?


----------



## cockneyrebel (Oct 23, 2005)

> Leaving the embarrassing stuff aside, any feedback on the bootsale itself? Numbers, meetings, anarchist assembly, that sort of thing?



Surely this is of more interest than some fuckwits with a sound system?


----------



## Emma Herself (Oct 23, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> The radical liberal anti-social lib comers should be recognised for the lifestyle bulshitters they are & be confined to the dustbin of history as soon as. Happy to do the honours.



Radical, liberal _and_ anti-social? My, and I thought we were just having a quiet drink. I never realised such banal action was loaded with so much meaning.

Monte, have I ever told you that I love you and think you've got the best politics of anyone I've ever met? How you've opened my eyes <3


----------



## max_freakout (Oct 24, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> why do you find yourself siding with the cops?



Because the way i saw it, it was NOT the police who started the ruckus, it was about 5 men who started getting rowdy and shouty when one copper said 'can i have a word with you' (albeit in an aggressive tone)to one of the guys who had the soundsystem, right outside the coronet door. At that point there were 2 police cars nothing else, i dont believe it was some conspiracy with vans parked just round the corner, as has been suggested, and i think that (most of) the police who turned up were NOT trying to make the situation worse, whereas there were several anarchos who clearly wanted to stir up trouble. I dont know what to think really


----------



## chegrimandi (Oct 24, 2005)

so what tunes were playing out? Neds Atomic Dustbin ?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

first of all, i think the mini "riot" was rubbish - i don't think it pissed off many locals, the ones i spoke to werent impressed by the cops behaviour

i support the smashing of the soundsystem and would pretty much agree with pickman's model's opinion on that

i hung around outside the pub because people were getting arrested and while i don't agree with solidarity with stupidity, i also don't like to leave straight away just in case, plus i wanted to find out where my fellow hsgers were...and anyway in my experience it is always the "wrong" people who get arrested at these situations... 

anyway apart from the fact of the soundsystem in the pub which was incredibly stupid and embarressing, this really is nothing - that wetherspoons often has far worse trouble on a saturday night, it's mostly a storm in a teacup imo


----------



## chegrimandi (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> first of all, i think the mini "riot" was rubbish - i don't think it pissed off many locals, the ones i spoke to werent impressed by the cops behaviour
> 
> i support the smashing of the soundsystem and would pretty much agree with pickman's model's opinion on that
> 
> ...



yes yes yes, fascinating but what tunes were they spinning? Ozric Tentacles?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> Surely this is of more interest than some fuckwits with a sound system?



yes.

impossible to tell numbers due to the change in venue and it's layout, i reckon it was down on last year, but others disagree
tbh i'm never that impressed with it and prefer the social aspect - however HSG got a fair few donations and some decent signups from haringey people who we havent previously come across

and the makhno meeting was good  though i forgot to ask about the allegations surrounding the torturing of a group of performing dwarfs


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

Glad you thought so- cheers!


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

Out of curiosity, did anybody else hear that one busy shouting "I'm fucking shitting myself here, back off or I'll start swinging" 

The whole fucking thing was rediculous, but I had to laugh at that.


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 24, 2005)

Isn’t this just another case of people claiming to be Anarchist who really just think Fuck everyone else I’m anti-Authority and I’m going to do what the fuck I like regardless of the consequences to others; which in my view is anti-anarchist.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> Isn’t this just another case of people claiming to be Anarchist who really just think Fuck everyone else I’m anti-Authority and I’m going to do what the fuck I like regardless of the consequences to others; which in my view is anti-anarchist.


Yup, nobheads.  The best part is that they were gone and waiting round the corner before the kerfuffle outside even started


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 24, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Yup, nobheads.  The best part is that they were gone and waiting round the corner before the kerfuffle outside even started


I have to say I didn’t see any of this and I’m not sure how I missed it (unless I had gone before it all kicked off).

I was drinking in a pub just across the road from the book fair venue, don’t have a clue what it was called, but it did have loads of TV screens showing football, is that the same pub? It was the pub on the opposite side of the road to the book fair and had a crossing outside it.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> I have to say I didn’t see any of this and I’m not sure how I missed it (unless I had gone before it all kicked off).
> 
> I was drinking in a pub just across the road from the book fair venue, don’t have a clue what it was called, but it did have loads of TV screens showing football, is that the same pub? It was the pub on the opposite side of the road to the book fair and had a crossing outside it.


All the shit was in the Whetherspoons just next door to the bookfair on the same side of the road, I know which pub you mean though.


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 24, 2005)

I’m interested in the fact that I don’t think anyone on this thread had supported the people with the sound system, so why were the police ever called, were there not other Anarchist in the pub who could see how this would turn out if the police arrived?

Did people sort out the sound system problem before the police arrived? If so I can understand why it all kicked off as the police presents wasn’t needed and would only antagonise.

There was a problem like this on an estate near here where a group of what I think are described as euro-squatters started holding parties in a flat; part of a block of 98 flats other squatters in the bloke along with some residents went in and smashed up all the equipment on the grounds that it was against community living to fuck up everyone night sleep, this had two positive effects it brought the majority of the squatters and residents together; something that 6 months of meetings and community project couldn’t do.

I my view most Anarchist I know are far more considerate towards others that live with or near them that most other people.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> I’m interested in the fact that I don’t think anyone on this thread had supported the people with the sound system, so why were the police ever called, were there not other Anarchist in the pub who could see how this would turn out if the police arrived?
> 
> Did people sort out the sound system problem before the police arrived? If so I can understand why it all kicked off as the police presents wasn’t needed and would only antagonise.


Somebody from antifa kicked the speakers in apparently, but the police had already been called, when the police got there, the bar staff went round asking everybody to leave, because they were worried there was going to be trouble.  I didn't see how the whole stupid scuffle started, but it looked to me like the police were beng unnecessarily confrontational and violent, as usual, a few people got nicked and then the police started pushing people back.



> There was a problem like this on an estate near here where a group of what I think are described as euro-squatters started holding parties in a flat; part of a block of 98 flats other squatters in the bloke along with some residents went in and smashed up all the equipment on the grounds that it was against community living to fuck up everyone night sleep, this had two positive effects it brought the majority of the squatters and residents together; something that 6 months of meetings and community project couldn’t do.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> and the makhno meeting was good  though i forgot to ask about the allegations surrounding the torturing of a group of performing dwarfs



I have never heard that one before - more information please!


----------



## montevideo (Oct 24, 2005)

Zoë Herself said:
			
		

> Radical, liberal _and_ anti-social? My, and I thought we were just having a quiet drink. I never realised such banal action was loaded with so much meaning.
> 
> Monte, have I ever told you that I love you and think you've got the best politics of anyone I've ever met? How you've opened my eyes <3



an inspiration to your class! 

What you don't seem to grasp is the soundsystem people & your lot are both lifestylers, just from different ends of the spectrum. All the insults you direct at them are reflected quite easily back at you. It comes as no surprise you all come from the same privileged background.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> an inspiration to your class!
> 
> What you don't seem to grasp is the soundsystem people & your lot are both lifestylers, just from different ends of the spectrum. All the insults you direct at them are reflected quite easily back at you. It comes as no surprise you all come from the same privileged background.


You are aware that lifestylist does actually mean something, as opposed to being an easy way to dismiss people you dislike, right?


----------



## Dubversion (Oct 24, 2005)

i thought it amusing that not 30 minutes after Thora telling Pie Face and i what had happened, and me commenting that by Monday it would have been exaggerated greatly, i heard a couple of punks in the band room at Okupational Hazard stating that there had been 'cop cars on fire and hundreds of arrests'.


----------



## WasGeri (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> an inspiration to your class!
> 
> What you don't seem to grasp is the soundsystem people & your lot are both lifestylers, just from different ends of the spectrum. All the insults you direct at them are reflected quite easily back at you. It comes as no surprise you all come from the same privileged background.



I'm confused. I thought *you * went to a public school.   


maybe that was an Ernestolynchism though


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 24, 2005)

*my bookfair*

well, i had a lovely bookfair chatted o lots of old faces, even soem old friends, bought some stuff, checked different groups out (notably met Larry O'Hara) and went to a couple of meetings. Meeting 1 = future for libertarian media. I would like it if meeting organisers would come with their proposed answer to their own question rather than just 'opening up to the floor' - i came to learn and discuss, i have no experience IN the libertarian media. In the end a crap meeting, derailed slightly by [forgotten his poster name] pointing out the wombles banning from libcom. Held back from just saying, 'Look, you're an anarchist, these poeple are COMMUNISTS, they do not neccessarily support the idea of anyone saying anything at any time, and have clearly demonstarted they are AT ODDS with your politics so why do you _care_ whether you can post on their website?'

Spent a lot of time manning a stall, and missed some meetings i wanted to go to - got roped into dong a stall minutes bfore the anarchist assembly. Went to the social centres and coops one but it was FULL, so must have been a good un. Went to the anti ID one and it was pretty good, looks likje pwople are going to do something - got lots of people to write ''www.defy-id.org'' on their bank notes (make fun if you must) then and there which was alright.

Saw a comrade i haven't seen since palestine, promised to meet me in the pub but didn't get the chance. Got to pub, couldn't peak to some mates as they were with some right bastard, so talked to other mates instaed. many drinks were bought for me, never had a chance to buy one back. Looked up and their were coppers outside. never saw the system, thought it was an in house band when i heard a chord or two. Went to look at the cops, nothing happening. Asked what everyone was doing, the vast majority of us were leaving to avoid trouble, which i thought was wet at the time but now respect. However as i left i saw fracassing galore and the pigs WAY out of their depth. There was however a lack of consistency in our attitudes: most people confrinatational, but almost none ready to finish it. We definitely could have. This lead to the usual shove from cops - shove back - de arrest cycle, that eventually gets someone nicked. If they had got a full on crowd it would have been over in minutes. Some cops did get done, entirely their fault for not just fucing leaving it. Saw one cop attacking a guy in glasses, he tripped or got done from behind and they both fell. Helped the guy up and walked him to safety, went back for his glasses lense (he seemed in a bad way) and found the copper sprawled on he floor with his eyes screwed up. Went to pinch his baton, remembered i am pending trial and (can't believe i did this) kind of helped him! Kind of picked him up and asked if he was hurt. Told him to fuck off back in his van and not bother us... Not that last part was an afterthought. Oh well.

like on all situations in london, no one knew how far anyone else would take it so nno one knew what was going on. Just standing around and shoving mostly.

To max freakout:
I understand where you are coming from, i used to feel the same way and often do. people are incredibly stupid with the cops in the @ movement and rarely treat them as they sould be treated - with utter contempt, but with discretion being the better part of valor. I don't oubt that 'we' were the first to shout at the cops or maybe even push them. But you must look at it this way: what right have they to clear the pub? What right have they to tell us what to do just becuase they have a uniform from a governenment we do not recognise? No it wasn't smart, and a lack of smartness is unforgiveable, but for that half hour our direct and real opposition to the govt. was clearly fucking visible. 

I believe their are 100 and 1 ways to express it better, but fighting back against idiot cops who are calling us out is the 102nd. Don't be turned off from anarchism over this, but ask  yourself why you are interested in it in the first place: do you believe that their will always need to be a police force and prisons? Do you believe we need one now?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 24, 2005)

Geri said:
			
		

> I'm confused. I thought *you * went to a public school.
> 
> 
> maybe that was an Ernestolynchism though


 Yes that was ernism. Monty is working class, which is why he is somewhat angry at others of my background beng more 'workerist' than him you see. All this shit about haircusts i don't know...


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 24, 2005)

I’m interested in this phrase “life stylers”, I heard it said outside by someone who said something like “bunch of fucking lifestylers, don’t they realise that everyone knows it takes then fucking hours to get ready, you can’t look that scruffy without hours of work”.

Do people mean by lifestylers the stereotypes that turn up at events like this? What do people mean?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 24, 2005)

Fucknose.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 24, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> I’m interested in this phrase “life stylers”, I heard it said outside by someone who said something like “bunch of fucking lifestylers, don’t they realise that everyone knows it takes then fucking hours to get ready, you can’t look that scruffy without hours of work”.
> 
> Do people mean by lifestylers the stereotypes that turn up at events like this? What do people mean?


Lifestylism's the general idea that to bring about social change you* must *make different lifestyle choices on an individual level - like dropping out, squatting, or ethical shopping, being vegan, abandoning personal hygiene etc. Best typified by CrimethInc. (www.crimethinc.com)

Montevideo's just muddying the water by using big words he doesn't understand, poor fella. It's not worth responding to anything he claims cos anyone I give a shit about knows that he's full of it. It's a shame his life's so empty he has to fill it with his obsession with us really...


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

*get a grip*

if someone had turned on a soundsystem in mcdonalds would you be so upset?

weatherspoons are bastards, and largely responsible for destroying working class pub culture with their horrible formulaic huge venues which suck the life out of all the other pubs in the area - the words legitimate target spring to mind

so someone turned on what was little more than a ghetto blaster and then turned it off and left cos it pissed off the locals

it was 10 minutes after the soundsystem had left that the cops turned up, and then it was only a handful of 'em until folk got aggro with them

this was not 'do what you want anarchy' it was a small, fluffy and imo quite funny action

we used to close motorways


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

*YOU get a grip*




			
				smokedout said:
			
		

> if someone had turned on a soundsystem in mcdonalds would you be so upset?
> 
> weatherspoons are bastards, and largely responsible for destroying working class pub culture with their horrible formulaic huge venues which suck the life out of all the other pubs in the area - the words legitimate target spring to mind
> 
> ...


oh so it was a _political_ act now was it? what a load of horse shit...

who was the target then? Wetherspoons - oh yeah the wetherspoons empire shuddered at the prospect of half a dozen naughty kids playing some music in one of their establishments... Those that know me know i avoid wetherspoons at all costs normally (coz they're shit, not coz its a political statement)... but i _do_ know that their principal customer base (low income, often pensioners) were the ones that were affected by these numptys, who when challenged, couldnt make the grown up decision to retreat... but rather continued what then became an inevitable escalation leading to the cops arriving and the stand off. I watched the whole thing and even before the staff came over, i could have scripted the unfolding of later events.

Dressing it up as an 'action'' is utterly unconvincing. It was just about naughtiness and 'breakin the rulez' with no consideration of the consequences. Send em to their rooms...


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

When have portable stereos had their name changed to 'soundsystems'?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> When have portable stereos had their name changed to 'soundsystems'?


when they drown out all other noise and chatter throughout, in one of london's largest pubs


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> when they drown out all other noise and chatter throughout, in one of london's largest pubs



Was it filming for a new series of Cyderdelic?


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> if someone had turned on a soundsystem in mcdonalds would you be so upset?
> 
> weatherspoons are bastards, and largely responsible for destroying working class pub culture with their horrible formulaic huge venues which suck the life out of all the other pubs in the area - the words legitimate target spring to mind
> 
> ...


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> Was it filming for a new series of Cyderdelic?


might as well ahve been


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

were you there?

"when they drown out all other noise and chatter throughout, in one of london's largest pubs"

which it clearly didn't, or even come close

"but i do know that their principal customer base (low income, often pensioners) "

like mcdonalds you mean?


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

Hey why don't you go and picket your local JDW now, dude. I'm sure the Monday Club regulars would be pleased to see some vanguarding anARko-pUnK tell them to drink elsewhere.


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> Hey why don't you go and picket your local JDW now, dude. I'm sure the Monday Club regulars would be pleased to see some vanguarding anARko-pUnK tell them to drink elsewhere.



I'd pay money to see that.   

(Especially at the one in Lewisham, where I drink all the time -- and I call myself an anarchist too. For shame!)


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

"Come to my squat, old people, you can have a swig of me white lightning!"


----------



## max_freakout (Oct 24, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> To max freakout:
> I understand where you are coming from, i used to feel the same way and often do. people are incredibly stupid with the cops in the @ movement and rarely treat them as they sould be treated - with utter contempt, but with discretion being the better part of valor. I don't oubt that 'we' were the first to shout at the cops or maybe even push them. But you must look at it this way: what right have they to clear the pub? What right have they to tell us what to do just becuase they have a uniform from a governenment we do not recognise? No it wasn't smart, and a lack of smartness is unforgiveable, but for that half hour our direct and real opposition to the govt. was clearly fucking visible.
> 
> I believe their are 100 and 1 ways to express it better, but fighting back against idiot cops who are calling us out is the 102nd. Don't be turned off from anarchism over this, but ask  yourself why you are interested in it in the first place: do you believe that their will always need to be a police force and prisons? Do you believe we need one now?



Thanx for that Taxamo, it certainly couldnt put me off anarchism i believe the way the world is now, _something like_ anarchism seems utterly inevitable in the not too distant future. And besides that i thought the bookfair itself was a real eye-opener, not to mention very well-organised( a well organised anarchist event - is this a contradiction in terms?). As far as a world without prisons, i like the JFK quote something like "every society gets the criminals it deserves". 
   But is it possible/credible to maintain an interest in anarchism if i have NO desire to get truncheoned over something like a soundsystem in a pub?


----------



## Emma Herself (Oct 24, 2005)

I still love monte more than anyone else on this thread. It's the way he can just _read_ me, and manage to know everything about my background after having actually spoken to me in real life probably once, about 2 and a half years ago. It cuts me to the quick, like a dagger to my heart.

He's so much more working class than me, and everything he says is true.

When I grow up, I want to be a WOMBLE.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

"oh yeah the wetherspoons empire shuddered at the prospect of half a dozen naughty kids playing some music in one of their establishments... "

just like tescos did on mayday, or the arms indistry did after dsei

i agree it was a bit naughty, but mostly harmless, but it must be great having the confidence to judge what is and isnt an action and what it and isnt justified

if this had happened anywhere but a pub then my guess is people on this forum would have a totally differnet reaction

but dont dare challenge corporate power when they sell cheap beer


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> "oh yeah the wetherspoons empire shuddered at the prospect of half a dozen naughty kids playing some music in one of their establishments... "
> 
> just like tescos did on mayday, or the arms indistry did after dsei
> 
> ...



So if Gizzard Puke and Sid Snot take their Argos portable cd-player to Hyde Park on Sunday, who are they challenging? 

The Queen?

The Parks Police?

Wage-drones enjoying a day in the park under false consciousness?

Their parents?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> if someone had turned on a soundsystem in mcdonalds would you be so upset?
> 
> weatherspoons are bastards, and largely responsible for destroying working class pub culture with their horrible formulaic huge venues which suck the life out of all the other pubs in the area - the words legitimate target spring to mind
> 
> ...


The pub couldn't serve because those nobheads (whom I would bet good money you were among) wouldn't turn their stupid fucking stereo off.  You knew this would happen, you knew it would ruin everybody's night and you knew the police would be called.

Fucking twats


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> were you there?


Yes. Im assuming you were as well?



			
				smokedout said:
			
		

> "when they drown out all other noise and chatter throughout, in one of london's largest pubs"
> 
> which it clearly didn't, or even come close


the point about importance of the noise level is a red herring anyway. It is the _effect_ of the action that is the point. The bar was closed to the punters.

Continuing your comparison with McDonalds are you? Three things about that: 

1) if you believed that and hold such deeply held opposition why were you in there in the first place?



> "but i do know that their principal customer base (low income, often pensioners) "
> 
> like mcdonalds you mean?


2) And so your point about these customers is what exactly? Im starting to see where you're coming from...  Out of interest, are you also into animal rights? 

3) Perhaps then you can name me a high street pub (and one based in Holloway at that) that _isnt_ owned by a bastard brewery or some other nasty corp?


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> challenge corporate power



And this *cough* action achieved this _how_ exactly?

I'd like to point out in advance that I'm not a real anarchist & didn't make the bookfair 'cause me & the Mrs were out picking accessories for our new bathroom. So I don't live in a squat or anything, really.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

but it didnt happen in hyde park did it

although if it did maybe they'd just be expressing the right to free expression in a public space

bit like reclaim the streets, or a squat party perhaps

the police overeacted to a situation that wasnt even happening when they turned up

one copper said to me we're only here cos you caused trouble, when i told him what had happened (someone turned on a ghetto blaster in a pub for 5 minutes), all he could reply with is well youre causing trouble now


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> me & the Mrs were out picking accessories for our new bathroom.


  urgh! fascist pig!!!


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> urgh! fascist pig!!!



....... and to make matters worse, we stopped off on the way home for a couple of cheap G&Ts in our local....... Wetherspoons.


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> but it didnt happen in hyde park did it
> 
> although if it did maybe they'd just be expressing the right to free expression in a public space



Free expression? Playing some duff music on a shitty Argos stereo?

Hyde Park isn't a public space by the way, Clapham Common is though.


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> ....... and to make matters worse, we stopped off on the way home for a couple of cheap G&Ts in our local....... Wetherspoons.



   corpor8 cock-suckr!!


----------



## max_freakout (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> the police overeacted to a situation that wasnt even happening when they turned up



Did the anarchists overreact to the police presence at all?


----------



## General Ludd (Oct 24, 2005)

> although if it did maybe they'd just be expressing the right to free expression in a public space


If your 'free expression' inconviences alot of other people then you have no right to it at all.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

hard to say, i didnt see the arrest which kicked it all off, but the cops were well over the top


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> "oh yeah the wetherspoons empire shuddered at the prospect of half a dozen naughty kids playing some music in one of their establishments... "
> 
> just like tescos did on mayday, or the arms indistry did after dsei
> 
> i agree it was a bit naughty, but mostly harmless, but it must be great having the confidence to judge what is and isnt an action and what it and isnt justified


come on then Bakhtin, perhaps you can run me through the carnivalesque qualities of this particular form of political action??? Im afraid that, bar half a dozen people in the pub, and _you_ on this thread... no one else appears to have 'got it'




			
				smokedout said:
			
		

> but dont dare challenge corporate power when they sell cheap beer


 If you were drinking in the pub and have the bare face cheek to make _that_ your argument then you are one deluded kid


----------



## Thora_v1 (Oct 24, 2005)

Yeah, the "sound system"/Argos CD player was all a bit silly - but I think people would have just left without trouble if police hadn't kicked off.  I think the first police that arrived were really confused as to who we were, and thought they were dealing with people from the football match.  One cop told me we had "football hooligans in amongst us" - think they might have been refering to Pickman's   .  Apparently by the time they interviewed people at the police station they were describing it was an attempted rave (!).

Some people did get a bit of a kicking in the police vans, and some had their clothes confiscated as evidence   Did get a stylish police-issue tracksuit and a pair of daps to go home in though, so every cloud...


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> hard to say, i didnt see the arrest which kicked it all off, but the cops were well over the top



I take it this is the first time you've been out down the high street at kicking-out time of a Saturday night?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> but it didnt happen in hyde park did it
> 
> although if it did maybe they'd just be expressing the right to free expression in a public space
> 
> ...


Any chance of a reply, btw?



			
				lil' ol' me said:
			
		

> The pub couldn't serve because those nobheads (whom I would bet good money you were among) wouldn't turn their stupid fucking stereo off. You knew this would happen, you knew it would ruin everybody's night and you knew the police would be called.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

Thora said:
			
		

> One cop told me we had "football hooligans in amongst us" - think they might have been refering to Pickman's.


hahaha   

pickmans, where you gonna be drinking before the 'big one' this saturday...?

... just so i can keep a safe distance for myself, like


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 24, 2005)

This is marvellous. So what we really had was high level political action on a legitimate target within corporate buisiness, which translates to some gormless cunts inflicting their personal choice of music on punters in a pub by bringing in a midi system. Priceless I couldn't have made this up for the next installment of the Revolution Betrayed. Many thanks.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

max_freakout said:
			
		

> But is it possible/credible to maintain an interest in anarchism if i have NO desire to get truncheoned over something like a soundsystem in a pub?



most definately - the vast majority of anarchists at the bookfair, expecially the class struggle contingent had nothing to do with either row


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

Last year: some cock does Mayday graf.
This year: some cock turns up at Wetherspoons with a stereo.

Any predictions for next year?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> Last year: some cock does Mayday graf.
> This year: some cock turns up at Wetherspoons with a stereo.
> 
> Any predictions for next year?



some cock turns up and writes 'you can't smash soundsystems' on the antifa stall


----------



## gurrier (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> the police overeacted to a situation that wasnt even happening when they turned up


That's what the police do.  

Making a lot of noise and disturbing others in the pub without caring whether they want to listen to your noise is not a particularly political act, nor is it unusual.  It's fairly typical lout behaviour and it's a nuisance.  That's the tradition that you were acting in - fuck everybody else, I want to listen to my music.  Not something to be proud of.

But, by the sounds of it the whole thing really is a storm in a teacup.  Any body got any comments on the content of the bootsale?


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> some cock turns up and writes 'you can't smash soundsystems' on the antifa stall


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

yes im sure it was a conspiracy to ruin everyones night

the pub and the police are responsible for their overeaction to the situation, when they stopped serving beer the folk with the stereo played for about 2 minutes and then left, you would have thought an experienced landlord could have dealt with a bunch of completely non-violent people turning on a radio in his pub without calling the cops

and as ive said this whole thing happened before the cops turned up, the people with the soundsystem had left voluntarily


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> That's what the police do.
> 
> Making a lot of noise and disturbing others in the pub without caring whether they want to listen to your noise is not a particularly political act, nor is it unusual.  It's fairly typical lout behaviour and it's a nuisance.  That's the tradition that you were acting in - fuck everybody else, I want to listen to my music.  Not something to be proud of.
> 
> But, by the sounds of it the whole thing really is a storm in a teacup.  Any body got any comments on the content of the bootsale?


Yes, can we have some comments on the meetings, stalls etc. rather than this boring shite.


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

What radio station did you put on?

Was it for 2 or 5 minutes now?


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 24, 2005)

i heard that Mahkno meeting was a load of shite. Apparently there was some old duffer rabbiting on in it


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> some cock turns up and writes 'you can't smash soundsystems' on the antifa stall


Plagiarist! you've pulled that quote directly from the nihilist manifesto havent you? fess up RnB...


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> That's what the police do.
> 
> Making a lot of noise and disturbing others in the pub without caring whether they want to listen to your noise is not a particularly political act, nor is it unusual.  It's fairly typical lout behaviour and it's a nuisance.  That's the tradition that you were acting in - fuck everybody else, I want to listen to my music.  Not something to be proud of.
> 
> But, by the sounds of it the whole thing really is a storm in a teacup.  Any body got any comments on the content of the bootsale?


Yeah, I can't believe David fucking Shayler showed up and was allowed to hold a meeting 

What's next, Sir Iain Blair gives his thoughts on how to deal with crime in an anarchist society?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

To GawkRodger:
You'll be getting a clip round the ear'ole if you carry on like that, young fellowme lad!!


----------



## knopf (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> the people with the soundsystem had left voluntarily



.... or to put it another way, had fucked off and left everyone else to take shit from the cops.

Well done. Well done indeed.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> some cock turns up and writes 'you can't smash soundsystems' on the antifa stall



there'll be an antifa next year!?



Ps noticed a few of our yorkshire comrades being a lot less reticent outside the pub.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> Last year: some cock does Mayday graf.
> This year: some cock turns up at Wetherspoons with a stereo.
> 
> Any predictions for next year?


money will have been abolished?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> Last year: some cock does Mayday graf.
> This year: some cock turns up at Wetherspoons with a stereo.
> 
> Any predictions for next year?


Yep, that we get un-invited by the London Voluntary Sector Resource Centre   

But, yes, Bootsale itself was great.  Big thanks to the organisers


----------



## montevideo (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> To GawkRodger:
> You'll be getting a clip round the ear'ole if you carry on like that, young fellowme lad!!



or an expulsion letter


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> or an expulsion letter


Do tell, can you name one person who has *ever* been expelled from the AF?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 24, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Do tell, can you name one person who has *ever* been expelled from the AF?



there's still some bitter acfers out there> never forgive, never forget.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> hahaha
> 
> pickmans, where you gonna be drinking before the 'big one' this saturday...?
> 
> ... just so i can keep a safe distance for myself, like


in the swan, as usual. or the plough.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> there's still some bitter acfers out there> never forgive, never forget.


What would YOU know about it, shitfor brains?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> there's still some bitter acfers out there> never forgive, never forget.


So that's a no then?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> What would YOU know about it, shitfor brains?



you're a bit pacy for an old man...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Yes, can we have some comments on the meetings, stalls etc. rather than this boring shite.






			
				charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> What would YOU know about it, shitfor brains?




it does get dull when someone calling for more interest on the thread turns coat.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

I'm not old, by sanyone's standards.
Was being called old by you meant to be an insult?
Pathetic.
Come back when you've got rid of the bumfluff.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

>


From YOU????


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> there'll be an antifa next year!?
> 
> 
> 
> Ps noticed a few of our yorkshire comrades being a lot less reticent outside the pub.



That's Yorshire folk for you, that anxiety provoking period when they might have to get a round in before last orders must have passed off without incident.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> From YOU????


what do you want, roses?


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

"Making a lot of noise and disturbing others in the pub without caring whether they want to listen to your noise is not a particularly political act, nor is it unusual. It's fairly typical lout behaviour and it's a nuisance. That's the tradition that you were acting in - fuck everybody else, I want to listen to my music. Not something to be proud of."

as ive said before just like rts or a squat party

all direct action is going to have an effect on some people, and some people dont like it

whilst this wasnt the most revolutionary action in the world it was a bit of a giggle, nothing more - the music was not loud

and if the worst you can throw at it is that people were disturbed by the music, well thats pretty weak aint it

maybe we should give up direct action all together - dont want to disturb anyone after all


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

this thread is funny as fuck


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> as ive said before just like rts or a squat party
> 
> all direct action is going to have an effect on some people, and some people dont like it


smokedout - youre doing yourself no favours by continuing to conflate this nonsense as political action... entertaining tho it is to watch you try... 

<suggestion: leave quietly now, by the back door, rebel warrior style>


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> "Making a lot of noise and disturbing others in the pub without caring whether they want to listen to your noise is not a particularly political act, nor is it unusual. It's fairly typical lout behaviour and it's a nuisance. That's the tradition that you were acting in - fuck everybody else, I want to listen to my music. Not something to be proud of."
> 
> as ive said before just like rts or a squat party
> 
> ...


i wasn't disturbed by what passed for music in the pub. it was the simple fact that a few people thought that it was a great plot to set up a system in a pub without any care or consideration for the fucking consequences. the bookfair's a time when people see other anarchists they often haven't seen for up to a year. people like having a chat after the bookfair - and to hijack that for a stupid piece of fuckwittery which even the owner of the system told me he'd said was a foolish idea is beyond fucking belief.

i agree that the police response was equally fuckwitted, but there would have been no fucking cops outside or inside the fucking coronet had you and yr mates not thought that yr 'fun' counted more than the hundreds of other people in the place. it was the sort of wanky elitist action i thought most anarchists, 'lifestylists' or whatnot, were against.

if you are going to have an rts do or squat party, don't you normally consult a bit beforehand to get more people into the idea?

it was among the most stupid and wanky things i have seen in many years in the anarchist movement.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 24, 2005)

post-bookfair; anarcho-muppetry and massive police over-reaction. 'twas
a pity because people got arrested and walloped needlessly, but also selfishly I would have liked to spend more time chatting with people over a couple of pints (I liked Weatherspoons - no music, smoke free area, I am such an old man). (instead I ended up in a dodgy english pub and a dodgy irish pub, both of which had their own charms).

actual bookfair;
That's the main problem with the bookfair for me, I kept meeting people for five minutes, saying I'll talk to you later, and never bumping into them again. The venue was crowded and noisy and I found it all a bit hectic. The meetings are too short to be satisfying. I went to the one on the Anarchist Assembly, and had to leave before it ended, so I don't know if anything was resolved. I found it a bit frustrating.
The WSM meeting was pretty small, we've never done one before because we reckoned that there Anarchism in Ireland is a bit of a esoteric subject at an English bookfair, and I think we were probably right in that. We sold enough papers to make it worthwhile, and managed to drop some of them into Housemans and Freedom (for those of you who missed it).

(that's my 2 cents, over to the rest of you)

I think a similar event, with more emphasis on meetings, and a social occasion for everyone at the end would be just lovely, but I didn't get the impression that any group or collection of individuals had the motivation or the energy to put one together.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

well its worth a try

although ive got to say, i fucking hate weatherspoons and their authoritarian, boring and aggresive approach to doing business, and if a weatherspoons was shut down for the night then tough shit

and like ive said if it had happened in mcd's or starbucks then im fairly confident that thered be a completely different reaction on these boards

if it was misjudged it was misjudged - im not here to judge

but the fact is that i dont feel the people who did it can be blamed for what was a complete overeaction on behalf of the pub management and the cops

and it seems ironic

turning on a stereo in the pub and disturbing poeple - bad

chucking bottles and putting through cop car windows fine

and i aint judging the folk who did that either, just pointing out the disparity

so it kicked off at the bookfair, for whatever reason, what are we in this for, the bottem line is that a little bit of low grade naughtiness ended in a situation that might have happened anyway

and in asituation in which people were free to leave at any time, just like the cops could have ended this without incident had they chosen to so could we, but people chose to have a confrontation - which again im not judging, but you really cant blame a few people with a stereo for what happened


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> well its worth a try
> 
> although ive got to say, i fucking hate weatherspoons and their authoritarian, boring and aggresive approach to doing business, and if a weatherspoons was shut down for the night then tough shit
> 
> ...


Can blame them for bringing the OB down upon us though.  Which resulted in people being arrested and a whole lot of shit.  Think before you act, ffs.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 24, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> post-bookfair; anarcho-muppetry and massive police over-reaction. 'twas
> a pity because people got arrested and walloped needlessly, but also selfishly I would have liked to spend more time chatting with people over a couple of pints (I liked Weatherspoons - no music, smoke free area, I am such an old man). (instead I ended up in a dodgy english pub and a dodgy irish pub, both of which had their own charms).
> 
> actual bookfair;
> ...



not a bad idea. The redoubtable rednblack was suggesting the same kind of thing (i think, maybe i just misheard); making it a weekend event, the sunday concentrating on more practical, hands on kind of meetings/discussions. Factoring in the hangover element i don't think it's a half bad idea.

There's always a group of individuals who have the motivation or energy, whether they'll get any suppport from the rest of _"the movement"_ is a different matter.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> not a bad idea. The redoubtable rednblack was suggesting the same kind of thing (i think, maybe i just misheard); making it a weekend event, the sunday concentrating on more practical, hands on kind of meetings/discussions. Factoring in the hangover element i don't think it's a half bad idea.



yep - a bit like the freedom to protest conference that was held on sunday (at the same venue) only broader in scope maybe...or not...maybe concentrating on a particular issue or set of issues would be better

it can't be up to the bookfair organisers to do it though, they have enough on their plate


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

"Can blame them for bringing the OB down upon us though. "

the cops were in the pub way before any kind of soundsystem action started, both undercover and uniform at times

soundsystem turns on - locals in the pub pissed off so soundsystem turns off and leaves (although i know for a fact the folk with the system did not just disappear and let everyone else take the heat)

two cops turn up, people kick off at them, then 20 cops turn up, people kick off even more, then tsg turn up and it all gets out of hand

yes people got nicked, but anyone who chose to was free to leave at any time, there was no police cordon until much later

and whilst i dont have a problem with people getting getting aggro with the cops they are responsible for their own actions, as are the police, and if you shout scream and chuck bottles at the cops yer gonna get nicked


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yep - a bit like the freedom to protest conference that was held on sunday (at the same venue) only broader in scope maybe...or not...maybe concentrating on a particular issue or set of issues would be better
> 
> it can't be up to the bookfair organisers to do it though, they have enough on their plate


thats not a bad idea... but bearing in mind that many groups already utilise the sunday to take advantage of having lots of people all together in london.

sovietpop is right about the meeting length problem. Nothing can be accomplished in under an hour... these sort of meetings can be no more than showcase style events.

Keeping the venue booked on a sunday we'd be able to accomodate several longer and larger meetings (issue/theme based) that are discussed more widely before they are put on? There could be some kind of opening or closing plenary where we get everyone together... now that _would _ liven things up a bit


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> thats not a bad idea... but bearing in mind that many groups already utilise the sunday to take advantage of having lots of people all together in london.



there's no need to clash with them either...


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 24, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> Keeping the venue booked on a sunday we'd be able to accomodate several longer and larger meetings (issue/theme based) that are discussed more widely before they are put on? There could be some kind of opening or closing plenary where we get everyone together... now that _would _ liven things up a bit



given the quite considerable 'hangover' effect, I think a totally separate weekend would be a better bet ... maybe mid november so you could use the bookfair itself to drum up a bit of enegry about it (Monty, I'm a great believer in 'if you build it, they will come' ).

but yes, meetings on particular issues, plenary sessions with everyone, and a feed of pints to round things off.


----------



## winjer (Oct 24, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> When have portable stereos had their name changed to 'soundsystems'?


Looked to me like there was a car amp & external speakers - one of which was smashed - involved as well.


----------



## JonnyT (Oct 24, 2005)

Bookfair:
I only got to a couple of sessions, the Anarchist Assembly and the one on technologies of control. The assembly sounded good in theory but in practice was never really going to get much done - one hour (less, given delay in start) given the numbers and groups represented couldn't be much more than it was, a bit of a chat and some feedback. The technologies one was pretty informative although seemed to be much more a talk than a discussion.
Meeting up with people was pretty cool and seeing the different groups represented was nice, tho WTF Shayler was doing there is anyone's guess.

Post-bookfair:
people with stereo - twats
cops - scum

*shrug*

- Jonathan


----------



## rich! (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> and if the worst you can throw at it is that people were disturbed by the music, well thats pretty weak aint it


Are you familiar with the saying "Don't shit on your own doorstep"?

The worst to throw at it? Well, how about "post-bookfair activities completely f#d up", or "wasting the evening of people hoping to meet people in the wetherspoon", or "whoops, there goes the venue for next year", or "oh look, people got arrested because of this", or?

sheesh.


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 24, 2005)

Anyone who has posted on the last 5 pages got any objection to me printing them out and reproducing them?

Only parts not the whole thing


----------



## newbie (Oct 24, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> If your 'free expression' inconviences alot of other people then you have no right to it at all.




Don't agree at all, if that's supposed to be some sort of blanket statement of principle.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2005)

jd wetherspoons aint my doorstep mate

"wasting the evening of people hoping to meet people in the wetherspoon",

so people were inconvenienced as well as disturbed - shock horror, it aint like holloway roads short of pubs 

"whoops, there goes the venue for next year", 

it aint the first time its kicked off at the bookfair and probably wont be the last, theres no shortage of venues

"oh look, people got arrested because of this", 

as ive said no-one got arrested because of what happened in the pub

reading on here and indymedia this whole things been misrepresented, whilst some people in the pub were pissed off, some thought it was funny (including several staff, one of whom was dancing at one point

wetherspoons could quite happily of let the music keep playing, it werent loud (all the talk of them not having a music licence is bollocks - theres no such thing) or they could have just accepted it for what it was and let people leave peacefully

when the soundsystem left there was absolutely no issue with the cops (both of them) who looked like they were about to leave until people kicked off


----------



## absinthe (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> some thought it was funny (including several staff, one of whom was dancing at one point
> 
> wetherspoons could quite happily of let the music keep playing, it werent loud (all the talk of them not having a music licence is bollocks - theres no such thing)



You said the 'radio' was put on for 2 minutes. 'Dancing'? Really?

There's no such thing as a music licence for pubs? Really?

What university are you at?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> all the talk of them not having a music licence is bollocks - theres no such thing


BWAHAHAHAHAHA 

You haven't got a fucking clue, have you mate?


----------



## JonnyT (Oct 24, 2005)

> so people were inconvenienced as well as disturbed - shock horror, it aint like holloway roads short of pubs


...at least two of which stopped letting people in after it kicked off.



> as ive said no-one got arrested because of what happened in the pub


things happened in the pub. things kicked off outside the pub. people got arrested.
A causes B causes C.



> wetherspoons could quite happily of let the music keep playing, it werent loud (all the talk of them not having a music licence is bollocks - theres no such thing)"


you really don't have a clue, do you?

- Jonathan


----------



## rich! (Oct 24, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> sovietpop is right about the meeting length problem. Nothing can be accomplished in under an hour... these sort of meetings can be no more than showcase style events.


An hour is pretty good for presenting some stuff to some people who are there to absorb some information: for example, I went to a very good Co-op one a couple of years ago: in an hour a bunch of people passed on a *lot* of useful experience.

But if you want the full-and-frank-discussion, then you're pretty much guaranteed to get a few people stating their point at interminable length, thus taking up most of an hour before it even begins.

Though, that said, utilising better methods than face-to-face meetings for such long discussions will tend to reduce the impact of the interminables; use a short meeting for introductions, "we're about this and not really that", "here's the current thinking ..." or whatever.

I suppose if you were expecting to have a long meeting you could have it in the pub next door - at least, if no-one took it on themselves to -  oh, wait, they did.


----------



## General Ludd (Oct 24, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> Don't agree at all, if that's supposed to be some sort of blanket statement of principle.


The only 'right' I think has any value here is that everyone affected by an action (in the sense of doing something not action in the activistism sense) should have some kind of say over it. 

Acting as you will without regard for others isn't any kind of anarchism I'm interested in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

smokedout said:
			
		

> jd wetherspoons aint my doorstep mate


well, bully for you! 

have you ever thought of anyone else except yourself?




> _so people were inconvenienced as well as disturbed - shock horror, it aint like holloway roads short of pubs _


and where was everyone meeting? the mother red cap? the lion? the head? or that convenient pub beside the bookfair? 




> _it aint the first time its kicked off at the bookfair and probably wont be the last, theres no shortage of venues_


which other bookfair has it kicked off at? it's not "kicked off" at any of the bookfairs i've been to in the last 14 years - the only previous police presences have been because of some fake bomb incident at the camden centre and a few plod outside conway hall, maybe a few plod outside ulu. i have a strong suspicion yr full of shit.




> _as ive said no-one got arrested because of what happened in the pub_


lucky them! the sound system people all got away? but BECAUSE of what happened in the pub seven people got arrested in the subsequent fracas. if you can't see the cause and effect relationship you really are daft.



> _reading on here and indymedia this whole things been misrepresented, whilst some people in the pub were pissed off, some thought it was funny (including several staff, one of whom was dancing at one point_


& how many people is this "some" who thought it was funny? as i've said - and to which you've yet to respond - the person who owned the sound system told me he thought it was a stupid idea to use it in the coronet. i've not met anyone who thought it was a good idea. a legal observer (not in the pub in a professional capacity) described it at the time as a fiasco - and i don't see many people here taking yr side.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 25, 2005)

Anarchy for the UK?


----------



## hibee (Oct 25, 2005)

Don't know what I want but I know how to get it
I'm going to take my shit ghetto blaster from Argos down Wetherspoons


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

hibee said:
			
		

> Don't know what I want but I know how to get it
> I'm going to take my shit ghetto blaster from Argos down Wetherspoons


as luck would have it, there's an argos not 100 yards from the coronet...


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> there'll be an antifa next year!?
> 
> 
> 
> Ps noticed a few of our yorkshire comrades being a lot less reticent outside the pub.



be careful mate, its called common sense and not throwing your liberty away.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 25, 2005)

Out of interest what were the cutting face of  civil unrest  and subversion playing to the massess in Weatherspoons on the Argoso-system?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Out of interest what were the cutting face of  civil unrest  and subversion playing to the massess in Weatherspoons on the Argoso-system?


if it was musick, it was of no discenible genre from where i was sat.


----------



## hibee (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> as luck would have it, there's an argos not 100 yards from the coronet...



Know it well, I used to live up that way. Always a load of Iranian guys out front selling snide fags


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

hibee said:
			
		

> Know it well, I used to live up that way. Always a load of Iranian guys out front selling snide fags


the sweepings from the factory floor.


----------



## absinthe (Oct 25, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Out of interest what were the cutting face of  civil unrest  and subversion playing to the massess in Weatherspoons on the Argoso-system?



Whatever it was it probably played havoc with old Reg's hearing aid. Selfish fuckers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> Whatever it was it probably played havoc with old Reg's hearing aid. Selfish fuckers.


it wasn't so much hearing aids as the lack of liquid inspiration which got many people's goat.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 25, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> Whatever it was it probably played havoc with old Reg's hearing aid. Selfish fuckers.



Reg?? I thought it was Charlie?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Reg?? I thought it was Charlie?


that's a wicked and cruel slur on cm! 

i don't think he wears a hearing aid. nor needs one, unless i'm much mistaken.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 25, 2005)

Eh? Eh? You're having some steak?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 25, 2005)

On a more serious level, Rosalie Parks died yesterday at the age of 92. She was the black woman who refused to give up her seat on a segregated bus in the Deep South of America and catalysed the civl rights movement. That's real heroism, that's real resistance, not like some anti-social numpty in the Coronet.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Oct 25, 2005)

> On a more serious level, Rosalie Parks died yesterday at the age of 92. She was the black woman who refused to give up her seat on a segregated bus in the Deep South of America and catalysed the civl rights movement. That's real heroism, that's real resistance, not like some anti-social numpty in the Coronet.



Indeed.


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> On a more serious level, Rosalie Parks died yesterday at the age of 92. She was the black woman who refused to give up her seat on a segregated bus in the Deep South of America and catalysed the civl rights movement. That's real heroism, that's real resistance, not like some anti-social numpty in the Coronet.




Sure history rightly records that as being significant, but at the time she was just an ordinary woman acting selfishly, without regard to the other people on the bus who presumably just wanted a stress free journey.  

According to the principles outlined by General Ludd her behaviour wasn't acceptable because it inconvenienced other people without them having any sort of say over it.  Whether or not history shows she had right on her side.

In that sense is an argument about a seat on a bus really that different from irritating people in a pub: none of us can be entirely sure what the historic consequences of any minor bit of misbehaviour might be?


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 25, 2005)

There's a difference between someone standing up to a society's ingrained racism which they've had to put up with their whole life, and a tosser putting on a stereo in a crowded pub. One is showing immense courage against overwhelming odds, the other is a tosser. See the difference?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> Sure history rightly records that as being significant, but at the time she was just an ordinary woman acting selfishly, without regard to the other people on the bus who presumably just wanted a stress free journey.
> 
> According to the principles outlined by General Ludd her behaviour wasn't acceptable because it inconvenienced other people without them having any sort of say over it.  Whether or not history shows she had right on her side.
> 
> In that sense is an argument about a seat on a bus really that different from irritating people in a pub: none of us can be entirely sure what the historic consequences of any minor bit of misbehaviour might be?


Yeah, because being treated like scum and a second class citizen is exactly the same as not being allowed to play your music in the pub, isn't it?


----------



## absinthe (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> Sure history rightly records that as being significant, but at the time she was just an ordinary woman acting selfishly, without regard to the other people on the bus who presumably just wanted a stress free journey.
> 
> According to the principles outlined by General Ludd her behaviour wasn't acceptable because it inconvenienced other people without them having any sort of say over it.  Whether or not history shows she had right on her side.
> 
> In that sense is an argument about a seat on a bus really that different from irritating people in a pub: none of us can be entirely sure what the historic consequences of any minor bit of misbehaviour might be?



I refer you to the thread about Parks in General where your statement will be rendered incorrect. Come back and try again.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie that is the worst post you have ever written

1/10


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> Sure history rightly records that as being significant, but at the time she was just an ordinary woman acting selfishly, without regard to the other people on the bus who presumably just wanted a stress free journey.
> 
> According to the principles outlined by General Ludd her behaviour wasn't acceptable because it inconvenienced other people without them having any sort of say over it.  Whether or not history shows she had right on her side.
> 
> In that sense is an argument about a seat on a bus really that different from irritating people in a pub: none of us can be entirely sure what the historic consequences of any minor bit of misbehaviour might be?


_nul points_


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

Rob Ray said:
			
		

> There's a difference between someone standing up to a society's ingrained racism which they've had to put up with their whole life, and a tosser putting on a stereo in a crowded pub. One is showing immense courage against overwhelming odds, the other is a tosser. See the difference?



Of course I do., but that's not the point I was making, I'm disputing with Ludd about inconveniencing others.  

However, given the general slating that post has had, I'll go and read the thread in general.


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

Alright, and having read it I'll retract the word 'ordinary' and insert 'activist', as though that makes a difference.

My point is that what she did affected the other people on the bus, which by the principles General Ludd has set out means that the other passengers _"should have some kind of say over it"_ because _"If your 'free expression' inconviences alot of other people then you have no right to it at all."_

She (rightly) exercised 'free expression' based on her own conscience and without regard to inconveniencing others.  She was right to do so.  


The comprison with the pub fandango was intended only to illustrate that none of us can be entirely sure what the historic consequences of any particular incident might be.  I wasn't actually suggesting there was a political point to the pub incident- maybe it read like that.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

He does have a point, he is simply applying their criteria to a given situation. Generic descriptions of anti-social behaviour devoid of context, history or background is simply the radical liberals feeling smug in their class angst way. 

I do wonder what the radical liberals would've done when the police arrived in that situation. Got off the bus & gone to the next pub?

To make comparisons with what happened at the bookfair with what happened in history is facile, but i think he was more highlighting the fact that their method of criticism is juvenile, inconsistent & holds little weight.

Ps Think also the stonewall riots; just a bunch of screaming queens getting uppity with the police & spoiling peoples quiet drink?


----------



## catch (Oct 25, 2005)

Unusual to see General Ludd included in your missives monte, are you widening the radical liberal hairdresser term to include anyone with any sense now?

Taking 


> Generic descriptions of anti-social behaviour devoid of context, history or background


and assuming they're all equally valuable is the problem with this incident and the minority of favourable responses to it.



> "If your 'free expression' inconviences alot of other people then you have no right to it at all."



Can't believe I'm arguing this, but the woman on the bus was being "inconvenienced" when she was asked to move seat. In this case, everyone else in the pub, including people you'd apparently like to work together in one big happy family, were being inconvenienced by a few twats. Just about everyone apart from you has supported the direct action property destruction that with more opportune timing might have ended the inconvenience then and there.


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

my fault, I shouldn't have mentioned the pub in #469  

Inconvenience to RP on the bus was expected, that was the norm at the time.  Her free expression inconvenienced everyone else on the bus, that was not expected and probably caused a lot of irritation.  I'll bet the local bars buzzed for days afterwards with people condemning her selfish behaviour, focussing on how inconsiderate it was and how everyone else on the bus should have had some sort of say (or veto?) in whether or not she gave up her seat.

Yet pretty much the whole world is clear she was right to do so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> my fault, I shouldn't have mentioned the pub in #469
> 
> Inconvenience to RP on the bus was expected, that was the norm at the time.  Her free expression inconvenienced everyone else on the bus, that was not expected and probably caused a lot of irritation.  I'll bet the local bars buzzed for days afterwards with people condemning her selfish behaviour, focussing on how inconsiderate it was and how everyone else on the bus should have had some sort of say (or veto?) in whether or not she gave up her seat.
> 
> Yet pretty much the whole world is clear she was right to do so.


perhaps in a few years' time the brave stand a few dissenters made in the coronet will be recognised in a similar way - their lasting memorial will be music in all wetherspoons.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

perhaps not...


----------



## absinthe (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> perhaps in a few years' time the brave stand a few dissenters made in the coronet will be recognised in a similar way - their lasting memorial will be music in all wetherspoons.



I'll drink to that!

 

But sometimes a quiet pint and a chat is nice.


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

indeed, perhaps not.  An ill judged comparison.


----------



## catch (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> indeed, perhaps not.  An ill judged comparison.



Yet just watch Monte try to back you up for the next couple of pages.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> perhaps in a few years' time the brave stand a few dissenters made in the coronet will be recognised in a similar way - their lasting memorial will be music in all wetherspoons.



i'd like to think in 20 years time the infamous _"coronet riots"_ will be remembered with affection & amusement & either a little nostaglia or a little embarrassment, depending on the state of the country.

The radical liberals will of course claim it as there's or deny ever being there, depending in what government department they are working in.


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> Yet just watch Monte try to back you up for the next couple of pages.



my basic point was right, I think (though I'll await the good General coming back with his views, maybe he can convince me otherwise).  As I neither know nor care what happened in the pub I shouldn't have mentioned it.

But Monte is right, the pub anecdote will be told and retold, with varying degrees of fidelity by those who were there or not, for years to come.


----------



## catch (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> The radical liberals will of course claim it as there's or deny ever being there



I thought free spirit had already done both of those  just about


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickmans Model said:
			
		

> perhaps in a few years' time the brave stand a few dissenters made in the coronet will be recognised in a similar way - their lasting memorial will be music in all wetherspoons.


Yeah right   

i mean _why_ is this rather pathetic (and obcene) parallel still being drawn out?

Course, such a comparison _has_ to be done in abstraction coz it falls to pieces otherwise...  comparing the two because the _effects _ (inconvenience, irritation) were similar while avoiding a similar comparison between the causes, the social nature - like whether one group had real choices and the other group not having any.

So what _was_ the 'cause' that motivated them to this political [sic] act? Poor dears... were they being oppressed by that nasty pub chain and their fascist [sic] music policy?  Do they stand for some much wider community desperate for music while they order their thursday night curry club meal in wetherspoons? i think not. They could have exercised their 'consumer power' and fucked off to spend their money elsewhere at some other pub. I dont think Rosa Parks had many other transportation options

But maybe im wrong... lets see if they and their mates can mount a similar 380 day boycott of wetherspoons, like the black population of montgomery did to their bus company. I wont be holding my breath


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> Yeah right


ffs! 

can't you see when i'm taking the piss?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> there'll be an antifa next year!?
> 
> 
> 
> Ps noticed a few of our yorkshire comrades being a lot less reticent outside the pub.


aye 


why wouldn't there be an antifa next year montey?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> ffs!
> 
> can't _you_ see when i'm taking the piss?


cant you see i was agreeing with you... and backing you up? 


... for once!  

... the  was at the others


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> cant you see i was agreeing with you... and backing you up
> 
> 
> ... for once!


    

has the like ever been known?!


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> has the like ever been known?!


enjoy it while it lasts. By 2.45 on saturday it will all be different


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> enjoy it while it lasts. By 2.45 on saturday it will all be different


  

the famous arsenal victory will come between us!


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> aye
> 
> 
> why wouldn't there be an antifa next year montey?



don't know. Lack of political evolvement? You can only be a street gang, & just a street gang, for so long. Website's looking good though!

http://www.antifa.org.uk


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> the famous arsenal victory will come between us!


yeah thats right:

*spurs 0 - 1 arse* <penalty, Pires>

<returns to planet earth>


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> yeah thats right:
> 
> *spurs 0 - 1 arse* <penalty, Pires>


that'd do.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> don't know. Lack of political evolvement? You can only be a street gang, & just a street gang, for so long. Website's looking good though!
> 
> http://www.antifa.org.uk


Blimey, do you have to attack _everything_ once your online? Montey, as one person who has never had a go at you before - WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?! Were AFA a street-gang? Look its taking action against fascism, nothing more, you know that. Why are you attacking it?

I thought you were just going to say it hasn't done owt for 6 months which would be more or less correct, but no, now your burning the one bridge the wombles had to another org in the movement too.

Bemused


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Blimey, do you have to attack _everything_ once your online? Montey, as one person who has never had a go at you before - WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?! Were AFA a street-gang? Look its taking action against fascism, nothing more, you know that. Why are you attacking it?
> 
> I thought you were just going to say it hasn't done owt for 6 months which would be more or less correct, but no, now your burning the one bridge the wombles had to another org in the movement too.
> 
> Bemused


tw 

there are a number of links between "the @ movement" and orgs therein, and the wombles. i don't think that those links have been severed in the last 72 hours.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

oh i've just seen the antifa website and its very 'anarchist' a la germany. Lots of black and smashy writing. Great, sure antifa don't need anyone else involved than it has already. 

Anarchists in the uk: somewhere around 1000
BNP alone: 4000 members.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)




----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> tw
> 
> there are a number of links between "the @ movement" and orgs therein, and the wombles. i don't think that those links have been severed in the last 72 hours.


sorry, maybe i'm wrong - what links with other groups were there apart from antifa?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Blimey, do you have to attack _everything_ once your online? Montey, as one person who has never had a go at you before - WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?! Were AFA a street-gang? Look its taking action against fascism, nothing more, you know that. Why are you attacking it?
> 
> I thought you were just going to say it hasn't done owt for 6 months which would be more or less correct, but no, now your burning the one bridge the wombles had to another org in the movement too.
> 
> Bemused



wasn't an attack. Far from it. Nothing wrong with being a street gang if that's what the people involved in antifa want it to be. (Limits your activity but at least you know what you're doing & why). But from having meetings of several to very few suggests some sort of evolvement is necessary no? I'd like to see antifa grow as a group, both numerically & politically, i hope others share that same aspiration.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

>


i mean its a bit of a narrow audience for what is a big campaign. Don't you think?

PS thre is no link to the wombles from the antifa site, they probably want that looking at.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> sorry, maybe i'm wrong - what links with other groups were there apart from antifa?


you know that the wombles aren't - contrary to apparent popular opinion - social outcasts, and that people from all manner of @ orgs and none know them socially. to my mind, these social links are at least as important as formal links between one group and another.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i mean its a bit of a narrow audience for what is a big campaign. Don't you think?
> 
> PS thre is no link to the wombles from the antifa site, they probably want that looking at.


that's a detail which will doubtless be sorted out soon - i'm sure that whoever updates the website will address that omission.


----------



## Zonk (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> that's a detail which will doubtless be sorted out soon - i'm sure that whoever updates the website will address that omission.



Here here.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> you know that the wombles aren't - contrary to apparent popular opinion - social outcasts, and that people from all manner of @ orgs and none know them socially. to my mind, these social links are at least as important as formal links between one group and another.


yes we both kno i know that - i like the wombles greatly. Socially aside though, what are the links? I am reacting, badly perhaps i admit, to what i see as montey criticising antifa out of hand. 

I don't want to fall out with him in any way. You know that.

I do however disagree that 1) anti fascism has to be explicitly anti-capitalist 2) Outsiders to the @ movement should be trated badly and it should try to be an @ only project.

I am not basing this entirely on this thread and for that reason... I will follow these discussions up elsewhere  

Lets not derail any more.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 25, 2005)

No link? Dear god that'd better be sorted out soon, otherwise who knows what they might be accused of...

Btw have Wombles got an antifa link up?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

*suggestions for next years bookfair?*

- a 2 day event
-- with theoretical conference on one day
-- and practical conference on another day

- an even bigger space

- a big rave in argos afterwards


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> yes we both kno i know that - i like the wombles greatly. Socially aside though, what are the links? I am reacting, badly perhaps i admit, to what i see as montey criticising antifa out of hand.
> 
> I don't want to fall out with him in any way. You know that.
> 
> ...


there has to be a class basis to anti-fascist activity, imo. as for the bit about outsiders to the @ movement, i think you'll find that there's a lot of good anti-fascist militants who aren't anarchists but broadly share the antifa analysis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> - a 2 day event
> -- with theoretical conference on one day
> -- and practical conference on another day
> 
> ...


perhaps finding a venue first might be an idea? 

& by theoretical conference, do you mean an actual conference or a virtual one?


----------



## knopf (Oct 25, 2005)

Rob Ray said:
			
		

> No link? Dear god that'd better be sorted out soon, otherwise who knows what they might be accused of...



 

Or indeed, what might happen to the non-linkers. Mind you, we are talking antifa.....


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

Rob Ray said:
			
		

> No link? Dear god that'd better be sorted out soon, otherwise who knows what they might be accused of...
> 
> Btw have Wombles got an antifa link up?


yes


----------



## chegrimandi (Oct 25, 2005)

fuck wrong thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

chegrimandi said:
			
		

> grown men and teenagers on tiny petrol motorbikes - they don't look good or cool, they are far too fucking small for you, you like like a twat and your shit childs vehicle makes the noise of a legion of massive ten tonne trucks.....


i think you may have posted that on the wrong thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

chegrimandi said:
			
		

> fuck wrong thread


haha!


----------



## chegrimandi (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i think you may have posted that on the wrong thread.



cheers picky you fucker!!


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> perhaps finding a venue first might be an idea?
> 
> & by theoretical conference, do you mean an actual conference or a virtual one?


actual! i mean have the more general stuff on one day, then the action planning on the next. I'l go through the program and split the meeting into one category or the other if you like - right now i have to dash.

ciao darlings *mwah* *mwah*


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2005)

chegrimandi said:
			
		

> cheers picky you fucker!!


----------



## rednblack (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> it?
> 
> I thought you were just going to say it hasn't done owt for 6 months which would be more or less correct



no, it wouldnt


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> sorry, maybe i'm wrong - what links with other groups were there apart from antifa?



one of our lot's in the iww if that helps. Organising their big bash as ramparts. See you down there!

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=136610

(not croatian dan)


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> don't know. Lack of political evolvement? You can only be a street gang, & just a street gang, for so long. Website's looking good though!
> 
> http://www.antifa.org.uk



Meanwhile the wombles will storm on as long as ketamine is plenty and dancing in a tescos on mayday is radical.

Dont forget the amazingness of dissent, strength to strength.

If you are slagging of antifa london then please state it quite clearly if you have something to say about yorkshire comrades then do so.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> Meanwhile the wombles will storm on as long as ketamine is plenty and dancing in a tescos on mayday is radical.
> 
> Dont forget the amazingness of dissent, strength to strength.
> 
> If you are slagging of antifa london then please state it quite clearly if you have something to say about yorkshire comrades then do so.



i think the yorkshire lot stand head & shoulders, mate. No-one slagging off antifa so calm down. 

Your 'professional arsehole' act on the other hand is wearing a little thin. Maybe stick to talking photo's eh?


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 25, 2005)

what?

what are you on about photos i have never taken any photos.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> - a 2 day event
> -- with theoretical conference on one day
> -- and practical conference on another day
> 
> ...



That's a good idea. Especially for those of us who _<treads carefully>_ have to travel to the bookfair. Socialising over pre-riot pints in Weatherspoons is more difficult if you have a 200 mile journey ahead of you.

Sorry to have missed, err, everyone. Got there too late, only time to do a bit of shopping, and didn't stay long enough to see the revolution. Bugger.

On a different note, can anyone stand far enough back from this thread and tell me what the fucking animosity is all about please? Seems to be libcom vs the wombles, antifa vs the wombles, or somebody vs somebody. If there is some hidden domestic London antipathy, perhaps ye want to keep it out of sight of the rest of the internet-using public, cos quite frankly the bile here should make people hang their heads in shame. I thought the trotskyite left were bad enough at the internecine bickering, but the past few pages of this thread make me want to just give up in despair.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 25, 2005)

Nah mate you've got it wrong, it's libcom *and *the Wombles, versus antifa. Antifascism is bourgeois.

www.internationalism.org


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Nah mate you've got it wrong, it's libcom *and *the Wombles, versus antifa. Antifascism is bourgeois.
> 
> www.internationalism.org



Fair enough, I should have added that if it is an in-joke then I'll just give up (without the despair).


----------



## newbie (Oct 25, 2005)

I wouldn't bother.  Us ordinary internet-using mortals aren't so stupid we don't recognise the difference between political opponents and political enemies.  We wouldn't believe an outbreak of peace, love and understanding across any part of the left.  When we see it happen within the mainstream parties we know full well it's a hypocritical mask to cover up the naked pursuit of power.  If the left tried that sort of thing they'd merely look ridiculous.


Anyway, it's entertaining


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 25, 2005)

tis Londoners, they just don't seem to get along (personally I think it's something in the water). There's some personal difference between some Libcom ppl and the wombles (which is convoluted and frankly even less interesting than what I sneezed up this morning), but not afaik between antifa and wombles.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 25, 2005)

In real life i love monte hes my favourite womble


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> <snip>
> Anyway, it's entertaining



With all due respect, permit me to disagree with you there, newbie. By page 9-10-11 it seemed to be a handbag fest of someone being a lifestyler, someone else going to public school and someone else (or maybe the same person all three?) being called "shitforbrains".

It's a fucking *disgrace*. But fuck it, what do I care? When people profess a committment to a certain politics, and then can't see past their own fucking egos/personalities (if what Rob posted is the case), it seems clear from this (my) distance that the politics is taking a back seat to happy handbagging.

Christ.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> i think the yorkshire lot stand head & shoulders, mate. No-one slagging off antifa so calm down.
> 
> *Your 'professional arsehole' act on the other hand is wearing a little thin. Maybe stick to talking photo's eh?[/*QUOTE]


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 25, 2005)

cheek


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 25, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> montevideo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 25, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> In real life i love monte hes my favourite womble



he's the Irish favourite too because he shares our love of middle of the road country and western music, especially at one am in the morning, sleep deprived after the bookfair.


though he seems wary of our whisky


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 25, 2005)

So, middle of the road, eh, rather than the radicalism of honkytonk and rockabilly!


----------



## catch (Oct 25, 2005)

edit: removed because the joke had been done better already.


----------



## gurrier (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> - a 2 day event
> -- with theoretical conference on one day
> -- and practical conference on another day
> 
> ...


Good call.  I reckon that it should have much tighter requirements than the bootsale though - with some minimum level of politics required for stalls / meetings.  Also the bonkers brigade (primmos, 911-anoids) should not be welcome.  Finally, some effort should be made to make the event less welcoming to random drunks and the "fuk yr facist rulez" types.  

It'd be a small start in the effort to convey a slightly more sensible public face of anarchism in the UK.  It would also give those people who love to moan about the shit state of things a chance to lead by example.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

*amendments thanks to monte and gurrier*

- a 2 day event
-- with theoretical conference on one day
-- and practical conference on another day

- an even bigger space

- no primmos or 911 loonies allowed into the treehouse, with Herbert 'professional arsehole' Read as our doorman.

- a big rave in argos afterwards

- evrybody who whined this year doing something ha ha ha


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> Also the bonkers brigade (primmos, 911-anoids) should not be welcome.



Seconded (again!). But as I was saying above about the animosity levels, perhaps immediately setting out the stall as to who is *not* welcome is somewhat unnecessary... although I'd share your feelings wrt the 911-aloons. A certain tolerance of difference is surely intrinsic to anarchist thought, no?

OK, so who is prepared to step up to the line and start work on this proposal to make the bookfair a 2-dayer? Where should this discussion be taken to make it a practical possibility?


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 25, 2005)

well it looks to me like you, Taxomo Welf, Top Dog, Red and Black, an Monty have expressed and interest. I don't know where you are all located, but you could exchange e-mails and see if between the five of you, you think you might be able to put it together... and maybe there are more here who would also be interested in giving a hand out...

edit to add: set up a mailing list to deal with the practical organisation (date, venue, agenda, publicity).


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

*first off, no, i couldn't organise a riot in a brewery*

but second off, the bookfair is organised by the same group each year i believe; if we were to set one up it would be outside and against theirs...


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> well it looks to me like you, Taxomo Welf, Top Dog, Red and Black, an Monty have expressed and interest. I don't know where you are all located, but you could exchange e-mails and see if between the five of you, you think you might be able to put it together... and maybe there are more here who would also be interested in giving a hand out...
> 
> edit to add: set up a mailing list to deal with the practical organisation (date, venue, agenda, publicity).



strangely this was the whole idea of the anarchist assembly was trying to achieve.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> but second off, the bookfair is organised by the same group each year i believe; if we were to set one up it would be outside and against theirs...



I don't see it quite that way. The bookfair does what is says on the tin. It is
extreemly successful within its own framework. So I don't see this as being in opposition to the bookfair, but as a complementary and seperate event ... which is why I think it should be on a different weekend (ideally after the bookfair,  so you can use the bookfair to draw people to the second event .. "now you've bought the books, next discuss the politics")


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> strangely this was the whole idea of the anarchist assembly was trying to achieve.



I missed the end of the meeting, did they talk about actually making it happen. It seems to me that quite a few people seem to would like this type of event to exist, but nobody wants to be the one to actually put into into place (or am I wrong in this, this is what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there didn't seem to enough enegry around).


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

I'd be into helping organise something like this, but being in Cardiff doesn't help with physical proximity...

This is only an idea, but it seems to me that it is an interesting idea about *expanding* the role & function of the bookfair. If that is the case (and not saying it is, some people seem to think we are talking about a separate event), then the first matter in hand would surely be the one of etiquette, of talking to the current bookfair organisers (who do a great job, ta to them for a nice do on Sat, shame the strippograms got out of control after, eh?) and seeing if they were into some new people organising a sort of bolt-on to the current bookfair. If they were, then we could take it from there. I certainly would like the idea of something like a theory/practice organising structure to the workshops/debates, ideally (imo) over two days.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 25, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> I missed the end of the meeting, did they talk about actually making it happen. It seems to me that quite a few people seem to would like this type of event to exist, but nobody wants to be the one to actually put into into place


i'd love to be the one, but i don't have thr experience or knowledge. Interestingly, eeryone else i think of as being able to organise something of this sort, would be so hated by other parts of the movement it would be hard to get off the ground. Frinsyance, the wombles excel at organising big meetings, but look at the stick they get here - and give out mind.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> strangely this was the whole idea of the anarchist assembly was trying to achieve.



Monte, I presume you are talking about this:



			
				Anarchist Bookfair said:
			
		

> 1-2.00 Anarchist Assembly.
> An invitation for an open dialogue between anarchist federations/groups/individuals to discuss how we as anarchists and anti-authoritarians involve ourselves with social, political and community issues on a local, national & international level, how we co-ordinate our
> activities and work together to promote anarchist initiatives and ideas, putting those ideas into practical and effective everyday use.



I missed all the bloody meetings cos I arrived late from the principality, but if you were there, and feel there is a cross-over with ideas on this thread, do you wanna give us a quick feedback on what was discussed and what concrete proposals came out of the meeting?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i'd love to be the one, but i don't have thr experience or knowledge.



But that'd be no block to discovering them 

And if the event that we are talking about starts off as a bolt-on to the bookfair, then you aren't faced with the challenge of organising a complete stand-alone anarchist conference from scratch... perhaps the bookfair organisers would be prepared to allow a nascent @ assembly to be piggy-backed onto the bookfair for a year or two to give it a bit of breathing space and see if the idea is a goer.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 25, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> evolvement


http://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...q=define:+evolvement&meta=&btnG=Google+Search


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 25, 2005)

Got to say George Orwell was right - when I see a worker in conflict with the police I know whose side I'm on... If only so called class struggle anarchists (communists/Marxists/Autonomists - submit your own preference) thought similar    In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP.

It is confrontation that teaches more than all the books and mags at the bookfair  , and also sorts the wheat from the chaff, those who can mix it from those who can't... It is confrontation that has given the @/left hope in the time following J18, from Seattle to Genoa and beyond... The locals from the estate opposite were joining in on Holloway road too... 

As for the stunt in whetherspoons I have a dual pov, on the one hand the movement was socialising in a positive manner, on the other I can see the attempt at the prank. Who here has not tried to provoke the old bill anyway? I can remember trying to flip a flat cap off in my youth, jabbing the cop on the forehead, and not getting nicked  ... Or am I just an anarchist  

AS for the conference idea Taxamo, it would be good... 2 days in big tents (books, food, beer, video, tents as well) in Clissold park next summer gets my vote, with a proper agenda, note takers, and progression built in. 

Cramming everything into one day at the bookfair just stresses everybody out cos you must 'do it all in the one day', there's too much to do...


----------



## montevideo (Oct 25, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> http://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...q=define:+evolvement&meta=&btnG=Google+Search



evolvement:_ NOUN: a progression from a simple form to a more complex one
_
http://www.bartleby.com/62/44/E0554400.html


----------



## max_freakout (Oct 26, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP...



In other words getting a truncheon over your head in a conflict that you think is completely pointless is a worthwhile thing to do?? "regardless of how something has kicked off"??


----------



## absinthe (Oct 26, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> *a*Got to say George Orwell was right -* b*when I see a worker in conflict with the police I know whose side I'm on... If only so called class struggle anarchists (communists/Marxists/Autonomists - submit your own preference) thought similar    In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP.
> 
> It is confrontation that teaches more than all the books and mags at the bookfair  , and also sorts the wheat from the chaff, those who can mix it from those who can't... It is confrontation that has given the @/left hope in the time following J18, from Seattle to Genoa and beyond... *c*The locals from the estate opposite were joining in on Holloway road too...
> 
> ...



a. George Orwell was more than co-operative with the police on many an occasion.

b. Reports suggest that it was cyderdelic crusties, not workers, stirring up shit.

c. All the 'locals'? How do you know? Did you conduct a survey?

d. The crusties with the CD-player were provoking the under-paid and over-worked Wetherspoons workers, not the police.

e. Did you succeed in breaking some poor old dear's catflap off her door? 

f. You claim you assaulted a policeman by hitting him in the face, yet did not get arrested. You're either lying, or you did it whilst a baby in the pram.

g. If vandalising old ladies' homes is anarchism, keep it.

It would be considered polite if you could outline the details of your action against the aforementioned little old lady's catflap, and what you were campaigning against.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 26, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> a. George Orwell was more than co-operative with the police on many an occasion.
> 
> b. Reports suggest that it was cyderdelic crusties, not workers, stirring up shit.
> 
> ...


  

(Er I think he means a cop's hat, not an old lady's cat flap)

And if you learned more from rude crusties playing shite music in pub than any books you got, I think you got the wrong books...


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 26, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> Got to say George Orwell was right - when I see a worker in conflict with the police I know whose side I'm on... If only so called class struggle anarchists (communists/Marxists/Autonomists - submit your own preference) thought similar    In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP.
> 
> It is confrontation that teaches more than all the books and mags at the bookfair  , and also sorts the wheat from the chaff, those who can mix it from those who can't... It is confrontation that has given the @/left hope in the time following J18, from Seattle to Genoa and beyond... The locals from the estate opposite were joining in on Holloway road too...
> 
> ...




Sorry but I think you will lose out on the essential spontanaity if there is a proper agenda.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 26, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Monte, I presume you are talking about this:
> 
> 
> I missed all the bloody meetings cos I arrived late from the principality, but if you were there, and feel there is a cross-over with ideas on this thread, do you wanna give us a quick feedback on what was discussed and what concrete proposals came out of the meeting?



aye that's the one. I too missed the meeting, which i should've been facilitating (which didn't go down too well), so can't really give a first hand account. Maybe some others on here who went could give their impressions. 

What i can tell you is the idea behind it (which may or may not have come out on the day) is that these assemblies would allow us to come together to develop collective strategies, co-ordinate activities & contribute to any ongoing struggles from a certain political tradition. The idea would be it split in half - ideas (first one, for example, would be the increased authoritarian nature of the british state - increase in police powers, detention without trial, shoot to kill, the introduction of various means of social control, asbo's, id cards, etc) & practical (how would & could we contribute to, for example, gate gourmet dispute). 

These are the basic premises from which hopefully some sort of dialogue, discussion & sense of purpose could emerge. The important feature of the assemblies would have a definite theme we could come together around & setting up of practical groupings to co-ordinate responses, strategies to ongoing situations. Beyond that it'd up to the people who attended to shape & take it further.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 26, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> evolvement:_ NOUN: a progression from a simple form to a more complex one
> _
> http://www.bartleby.com/62/44/E0554400.html


What's wrong with "development" or "change"?  I smell pretentious bullshit...


----------



## absinthe (Oct 26, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> aye that's the one. I too missed the meeting, which i should've been facilitating



 What do you mean 'facilitating'? Are you in the management consultancy game?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 26, 2005)

@ monte: so, you missed the meeting  Well, cheers for the synopsis, although do you reckon you could find out if there was any concrete action taken? For example,  if they decided to set up an email list, as sovietpop has suggested here, then there wouldn't be much point in replicating that. This, though, is the thorny bit






			
				montevideo said:
			
		

> The important feature of the assemblies would have a definite theme we could come together around & setting up of practical groupings to co-ordinate responses, strategies to ongoing situations.


 Dunno about trying to agree a "theme" or whatever before hand, but perhaps if a start was made on a concrete plan, people would be less likely to want to scupper it with endless ideological nitpicking and be more likely to lend a hand? (naivety alert!) Anyway, perhaps you could suss out if there are any plans afoot as a result of the meeting and post up any links/public emails here?





			
				In Bloom said:
			
		

> What's wrong with "development" or "change"?  I smell pretentious bullshit...



@ In Bloom: and your point is? Have you anything constructive to add, or shall we return this thread to the handbag fest of several pages ago? Get a grip.




			
				absinthe said:
			
		

> What do you mean 'facilitating'? Are you in the management consultancy game?



@ absinthe: I've heard "facilitating" used constantly for the past few years at meetings, what is your problem with it? It avoids the (traditional) idea that "chairing" a meeting invests the chair with some sort of authority. Do you *really* think it is likely that Monte is "in the management consultancy game"?   Go and join In Bloom on the naughty step.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 26, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> In Bloom: and your point is? Have you anything constructive to add, or shall we return this thread to the handbag fest of several pages ago? Get a grip.


Pardon me for having a sense of fucking humour.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 26, 2005)

hasn't this thread got very long?




			
				Attica said:
			
		

> .
> Cramming everything into one day at the bookfair just stresses everybody out cos you must 'do it all in the one day', there's too much to do...



I'd agree with that.

At the Assembly meeting it seemed to me that people were talking at cross purposes a bit. The assembly seemed to mean different things to different people, with different ideas's being expressed in terms of purpose, location, timing -

Purpose;
- some saw it as a talking shop (me, Wombles and others)
- others seemed to see it as a forum for implementing a unified strategy/ or practical work of some sort 
(either particular issues (Wombles), or a particular strategy ( AF) )

Location;
- some were talking about local initiatives
- some were talking about a national initiative

Timing;
- some saw it as something that would occur as the need arose (wombles)
- or on a monthly basis
- or on an annual basis (me).

or at least that is how it looked for me, but I'm open to contradiction...


----------



## montevideo (Oct 26, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> @ monte: so, you missed the meeting  Well, cheers for the synopsis, although do you reckon you could find out if there was any concrete action taken? For example,  if they decided to set up an email list, as sovietpop has suggested here, then there wouldn't be much point in replicating that. This, though, is the thorny bit Dunno about trying to agree a "theme" or whatever before hand, but perhaps if a start was made on a concrete plan, people would be less likely to want to scupper it with endless ideological nitpicking and be more likely to lend a hand? (naivety alert!) Anyway, perhaps you could suss out if there are any plans afoot as a result of the meeting and post up any links/public emails here?



well the theme thing is just something to hang the discussion topics on. Ie  'increased authoritarian nature of the british state' could include amongst other things - war on terror (which could include an assessment on our failure to have an impact on the anti war movement), introduction of id cards, police repression, social control (asbo's, new legislation on demonstrations, anti terrorism laws), all relevant & valid. The options remain as open as the imaginations of those involved.

Again i see these things as opening lines of communication rather than offering concrete assertions on particular viewpoints. The ideological nitpicking i think is a symptom of the lack of confidence some groups feel in how their politics are viewed. It can be overcome. 

Some guy is looking to do a london wide one, which i think is a start.

PS blame the irish & their lack of revolutionary discipline for me missing the meeting, holding me prisoner in dodgy republican pubs the night before the bookfair, when i should've been putting the booklet together, which i had to finish in the morning & photocopy, hence my non-show. Apologies all round. 

PPS Although i do do a good handjive to brown-eyed girl.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 26, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> PS blame the irish & their lack of revolutionary discipline for me missing the meeting, holding me prisoner in dodgy republican pubs the night before the bookfair.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 26, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> a. George Orwell was more than co-operative with the police on many an occasion.
> 
> b. Reports suggest that it was cyderdelic crusties, not workers, stirring up shit.
> 
> ...



a] Orwells' general point still holds, though I am not suggesting in individual moments of weakness that 'cooperation'/ 'compromise' with the filth is wrong - if I assaulted every cop I saw I would be in prison all the time...

b] your reports are clearly wrong then.

c] there were locals 'coming on down' - ask some of the others who were there...

d] n/a

e] and g] You're clearly dribbling down your chin again.

f] You clearly have no, or next to no experience of class struggle then (tell us when you get the 'key of the door' pls). People I have known have kicked t'owd bill in the balls and got away with it    and people DO get 'not guilty' in court sometimes too. 

In those moments of confrontation/melee, much becomes possible, and also the pigs do make mistakes...   

To icepick, the point I was making was that real confrontation e.g. with the filth down Holloway road, teaches more than the books/mags at the bookfair... Real class struggle is worth far far more than 'televised' (media mediated) ideological revolution, and many agree with me on that one...


----------



## absinthe (Oct 26, 2005)

d


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 26, 2005)

absinthe said:
			
		

> d



  

Poor didums - that cat you mentioned obviously has got your tongue


----------



## blamblam (Oct 27, 2005)

Anti-social behaviour =/ class struggle


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Pardon me for having a sense of fucking humour.


sorry, but you weren't joking. i'm sure you do have a sense of humour, but you weren't using it then. The colonels point stands IMVHO


----------



## Emma Herself (Oct 27, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Anti-social behaviour =/ class struggle


 See, now you've caught up. Bloody middle class liberal hairdressing posh boy libcommer punk lifestyle book reading scum


----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

Zoë Herself said:
			
		

> See, now you've caught up. Bloody middle class liberal hairdressing posh boy libcommer punk lifestyle book reading scum



book reading!!!? How did that get slipped in? You anti-socials are a weird bunch.


----------



## Emma Herself (Oct 27, 2005)

Cos, like, books are made by The Man. They only tell you what they what you to hear, and they're authoritarian cos they discriminate against those who can't read, you know, the working class. 

Don't tell me you read books too, Monte? Otherwise you'll no longer be my all-time favourite anarchist


----------



## blamblam (Oct 27, 2005)

Zoë Herself said:
			
		

> See, now you've caught up. Bloody middle class liberal hairdressing posh boy libcommer punk lifestyle book reading scum


Actually that was meant to be


----------



## Emma Herself (Oct 27, 2005)

You're such a fucking liberal. Go join the Labour party. 0 @narky points for you.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 27, 2005)




----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

Zoë Herself said:
			
		

> Cos, like, books are made by The Man. They only tell you what they what you to hear, and they're authoritarian cos they discriminate against those who can't read, you know, the working class.
> 
> Don't tell me you read books too, Monte? Otherwise you'll no longer be my all-time favourite anarchist



i think my lifestyle permits me the odd paperback. Is reading anti-social zoe?


----------



## Epicurus (Oct 27, 2005)

*Organisational responsibility and discipline should not be controversial. They are the travelling companions of the practice of social anarchism.*

I read the above statement recently and I firmly believe it to be true.

How do you think it helps to build cross community support to alienate older people from the working class by disrupting their social time together? 

Could someone who understands Anarchism in the UK explain to me if the term “Anarchism” encompasses all radicalised liberalism and is that why this thread has gone the way it has, many radical liberals consider themselves to be anarchist; while the social anarchist on here don’t consider them such?


----------



## catch (Oct 27, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> *Organisational responsibility and discipline should not be controversial. They are the travelling companions of the practice of social anarchism.*
> 
> I read the above statement recently and I firmly believe it to be true.
> 
> ...



Yeah that's about the size of it. Although increasingly I'm thinking they can have the word and I'll call myself something else.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 27, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> *Organisational responsibility and discipline should not be controversial. They are the travelling companions of the practice of social anarchism.*
> 
> I read the above statement recently and I firmly believe it to be true.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't be seen dead with a radical liberal.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be seen dead with a radical liberal.



what about your gardener?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

defendants update: one of those arrested has just been back to angel nick where he is again bailed to return in january. No charge although pre-bail conditions are a) not allowed in the borough of islington, b) not allowed to associate with the other defendants (these it seems are the standard conditions for people arrested in football fights). This looks likely for all 7 defendants.

Reading between the lines obviously not got enough to charge with just the police statements (a good thing) & are waiting on the cctv footage to see if there's anything incriminating before charging them with anything.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 27, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> what about your gardener?



He isn't a radical liberal and feels the same way.


----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

ps from what i know all 7 gave a no comment interviews. Again* a good thing.*


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 27, 2005)

*Q for monty:* you've been behind this call for an anarchist assembly to bring people together with the aim of discusing commonalities that can lead to action... how do you reconcile this + approach with the - bickering and personal attacks that you seem to spend most of your time engaged in on urban with @'s and others? Does it help enable the sort of conducive atmosphere thats an absolute pre-requisite for folk to to meet irl?

*Q for attica:* if half a dozen crusties walked into a Crook working men's club with their own music, set it off... leading to the bar being shut down... and then fucked off before the filth arrived to said working men's club, leaving the occupants to cop the flak from the bill, would you still say this is acceptable*?

*coz i note that you've concentrated on the flashpoint with the bill, but left any discussion of the rights or wrongs of what led up to it


----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> He isn't a radical liberal and feels the same way.


i call a spade a spade lad, now go & weed those marrows, the revolutionary party won't feed itself.


----------



## ether (Oct 27, 2005)

Haha. Thought this was a thread about HMP Holloway! Der.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Oct 27, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> i call a spade a spade lad, now go & weed those marrows, the revolutionary party won't feed itself.



Marrows have just about finished up here Monty and I have just cropped the pumpkins as one of them got nicked. I had a word with the Chairman, sorry 'facilitator',  of the allotment association about a non hierarchical voluntary pumpkin defence militia but he said that it sounded to much like  platform anarchism to him and went back to his seed catalogue,   This Mrs Snowden btw , is she one of your benefactors?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 27, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> *Q for monty:* you've been behind this call for an anarchist assembly to bring people together with the aim of discusing commonalities that can lead to action... how do you reconcile this + approach with the - bickering and personal attacks that you seem to spend most of your time engaged in on urban with @'s and others? Does it help enable the sort of conducive atmosphere thats an absolute pre-requisite for folk to to meet irl?



one thing i have learnt topdog is real life is real life & the internet is the internet. Opposite & almost always contradictory. If people turn up contribute, whether it be a discussion day, an activity, an event, solidarity action, a picket then we have something to work on & i'll be as conducive as anyone else.

If on the other hand we have this petty gossiping from the sidelines, resentful self-exclusion, almost pathalogical political categorisation, coupled with an anti-social bulshittery then they will receive just as much in return.


----------



## flickerx (Oct 27, 2005)

Hi there, me = regular lurker, occasional poster (mostly in tech forums),

Reading threads like this (and many, many others) make me believe further that anarchism is not "the answer" any more (not that I was ever really fully sure about that anyway, but for a time I believed in it). If its supposed to be about mutual co-operation in society, consensus, and peaceful conflict resolution, then its advocates are no shining example to look up to, at least in my eyes. People endlessly find new micro-conflicts to wind themselves up in, be it Dissent!, the Bookfair, internecine rivalry, etc - and build them up into these massive rows, especially on the internet. What does anarchism offer me, seriously all I can see from it is people bitching at each other and at other micro left groups within the same 1% of the left spectrum (the narcissism of minor difference and all that...).

If those advocating an organisation of society by the people within it cant even organise an introductory assembly of activists with extremely similar aims, what model is that for a society with a far, far wider range of opinions and backgrounds than the activist ghetto?

And yes, I am aware of the irony of this posting negative remarks on an internet forum, but I'm not an 'activist' pushing for anarchism, and I'll try not to do it again, I dont want to get involved in internet spats, they're bad for your brain.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 27, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> one thing i have learnt topdog is real life is real life & the internet is the internet. Opposite & almost always contradictory. If people turn up contribute, whether it be a discussion day, an activity, an event, solidarity action, a picket then we have something to work on & i'll be as conducive as anyone else.
> 
> If on the other hand we have this petty gossiping from the sidelines, resentful self-exclusion, almost pathalogical political categorisation, coupled with an anti-social bulshittery then they will receive just as much in return.


its funny that you start from the position of blaming the people that wont turn up to these things... "self excluding" etc. etc. ie. its the _fault _ of the non-attenders that they wont engage in the process. Rather than begining with the process and considering what can the initiative do to encourage & enable the maximum no. of people to attend? What issues, problems, concerns might disbar them? etc.

Look back over the thread and you'll see several people who've expressed exasperation at the bickering thats going on and have suggested it's informing their impression of @ists or at least the london ones. How many more lurkers in P&P think the same but dont dare post for fear of being flamed??? Will we ever know?

Its a similar baseline to the perennial hand-wringing that goes on in meetings about why there arent more women involved in our scene... led of course by confident, assertive, (and/or else predatory) agenda-mad men, talking about the question in the abstract... in a pub.

Yeah... i cant think _why_ there arent more women involved in our scene


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 27, 2005)

*i posted the above and then saw flickerx' post...*



> Look back over the thread and you'll see several people who've expressed exasperation at the bickering thats going on and have suggested it's informing their impression of @ists or at least the london ones. How many more lurkers in P&P think the same but dont dare post for fear of being flamed??? Will we ever know?


----------



## JonnyT (Oct 27, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> *Organisational responsibility and discipline should not be controversial. They are the travelling companions of the practice of social anarchism.*
> 
> I read the above statement recently and I firmly believe it to be true.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

The most common criticism I run into of anarchism (well, aside from the clowns) is on its supposed naive reliance on human good nature - and reluctance among many to tackle issues of anti-social behaviour, putting them down to capitalism and nothing more (not saying many of them are not, but I fear the fuckwit shall be with us for all days). Being unable to handle anti-socials right now kinda proves this to be at least partially true.

The problem IMO isn't so much "radical liberalism" as it is a general anti-social fuck-you attitude that takes anarchy as do what you want and damn the consequences.

- Jonathan


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## In Bloom (Oct 27, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> sorry, but you weren't joking. i'm sure you do have a sense of humour, but you weren't using it then. The colonels point stands IMVHO


I was merely pointing out (with a degree of humour) that its a little silly using words like "evolvement" when there are already perfectly servicable words in common usage.  I happen to think stuff like this is a big problem within the anarchist movement in the UK.  It's not big, it's not clever and it alienates people.


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## Epicurus (Oct 27, 2005)

JonnyT said:
			
		

> The problem IMO isn't so much "radical liberalism" as it is a general anti-social fuck-you attitude that takes anarchy as do what you want and damn the consequences.
> 
> - Jonathan


The people you describe above are not anarchist, are they? In the main they are just selfish individual who have no concept of personal responsibility or community responsibility.


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## JonnyT (Oct 27, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> The people you describe above are not anarchist, are they? In the main they are just selfish individual who have no concept of personal responsibility or community responsibility.


No argument here - but they do claim to be. Maybe in a few soundsystems' time they'll take the hint and fuck off .


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## Emma Herself (Oct 27, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> i think my lifestyle permits me the odd paperback. Is reading anti-social zoe?


Yes, as is:

*brushing your teeth
*buying food
*paying rent
*taking part in competitive sport

Monte I'm dissapointed with you, I thought you'd be more revolutionary than to spend time reading books, but as you've pointed out, aside from the book reading (and possibly some of the points above), you do live a very acceptable anarchist lifestyle so I'll let you off and you can still be my no.1 anarchist.

Everything's still ok.


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## Epicurus (Oct 27, 2005)

Just found the quote I used above it is from Black Flag issue 225 where there is a very informative piece about “Looking back and forward” looking at the anarchist movement in the UK from the 1960’s to today. I’d like to meet the person who wrote it for a pint  I found it very informative; I have no idea how correct it is but it rings very true with me.

BTW why can’t I access : www.flag.blackened.net  isn’t that the web address?


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## knopf (Oct 27, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> BTW why can’t I access : www.flag.blackened.net  isn’t that the web address?



http://flag.blackened.net/blackflag/ -- try that one.  

Not been updated since 2001, mind. Probably best to write to the PO Box. They're friendly enough people.

I can see at least 1 Flagger on this thread, but I'll let him make himself known......


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## The Black Hand (Oct 27, 2005)

FFS - too shy/scared to post (anonymously) cos they might be flamed... didums again     (and I appreciate people have to train themselves not to be shy) - as Ian Bone said, 'what you see  is what you get', at least its honest - boy do I hate the 'wespectable' who can't post on their own accord and merely parrot the 'fed'/'party'/'association' line....
But you are right topdog, this 'male behaviour' does alienate women and is a political problem in its own right...


ANyway, we have still nothing to fear but fear itself, and as individuals and as groups, and a movement, we have to 'feel the fear and do it anyway'. It is fear that absolutely paralises individuals and groups, it is fear that stops those who could have done more on the saturday nite in Holloway road, the sleeping policeman/woman in everybodies heads who must be killed   (we would do well to remember who put it there an why)... More l8r.


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## The Black Hand (Oct 27, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> *Q for attica:* if half a dozen crusties walked into a Crook working men's club with their own music, set it off... leading to the bar being shut down... and then fucked off before the filth arrived to said working men's club, leaving the occupants to cop the flak from the bill, would you still say this is acceptable*?
> 
> *coz i note that you've concentrated on the flashpoint with the bill, but left any discussion of the rights or wrongs of what led up to it



But that's the point, they wouldn't go into Crook working mens club, it would just be too scary for them. If they wanted to try, the locals are very well known for fighting so either getting rid of a few crusties or a ruck with the old bill wouldn't matter that much - certainly it would not cause them the angst it has caused the anarchist movement... And btw, Crook working mens is known locally by experienced politicos as a relatively 'right wing' working class establishment because it wouldn't allow left political meetings let alone anarchist ones    FInally the repressive function and history of the police does not disappear even if they were acting against 'anti socials' in the first instance, they managed to treat ordinary people like shit down holloway road, swearing at them, agressive and violent as they were to non crusties...


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## rednblack (Oct 27, 2005)




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## catch (Oct 28, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> *coz i note that you've concentrated on the flashpoint with the bill, but left any discussion of the rights or wrongs of what led up to it



need your eyes testing or something Attica?


----------



## montevideo (Oct 28, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> its funny that you start from the position of blaming the people that wont turn up to these things... "self excluding" etc. etc. ie. its the _fault _ of the non-attenders that they wont engage in the process. Rather than begining with the process and considering what can the initiative do to encourage & enable the maximum no. of people to attend? What issues, problems, concerns might disbar them? etc.
> 
> Look back over the thread and you'll see several people who've expressed exasperation at the bickering thats going on and have suggested it's informing their impression of @ists or at least the london ones. How many more lurkers in P&P think the same but dont dare post for fear of being flamed??? Will we ever know?
> 
> ...



I don't think i am blaming people who don't turn up.  I am saying that turning up is a starting point from which things can develop from. Sitting on the sidelines simply decrying the lack of _'a movement'_ (or more pointedly _'a movement' _that's isn't doing anarchism properly) has no possibility of evolving beyond its own self-exclusion. Maybe you attach the same significance to the trivial & often banal banter exchanged on a message board (me included) with hands on political activity (whatever that activity may be)?

Be surprised if any genuine people were put of by my presense to be honest. Maybe you're talking about a different message board. 

Probably wouldn't surprise you to know that the soundsystem debacle at the wetherspoons was initiated by women.


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## Chuck Wilson (Oct 28, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> I don't think i am blaming people who don't turn up.  I am saying that turning up is a starting point from which things can develop from. Sitting on the sidelines simply decrying the lack of _'a movement'_ (or more pointedly _'a movement' _that's isn't doing anarchism properly) has no possibility of evolving beyond its own self-exclusion. Maybe you attach the same significance to the trivial & often banal banter exchanged on a message board (me included) with hands on political activity (whatever that activity may be)?
> 
> Be surprised if any genuine people were put of by my presense to be honest. Maybe you're talking about a different message board.
> 
> Probably wouldn't surprise you to know that the soundsystem debacle at the wetherspoons was initiated by women.



Did Herbie get any pictures of them? Apart from the ones on Inymedia I haven't seen any more.


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## Top Dog (Oct 28, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> I don't think i am blaming people who don't turn up.  I am saying that turning up is a starting point from which things can develop from. Sitting on the sidelines simply decrying the lack of _'a movement'_ (or more pointedly _'a movement' _that's isn't doing anarchism properly) has no possibility of evolving beyond its own self-exclusion. Maybe you attach the same significance to the trivial & often banal banter exchanged on a message board (me included) with hands on political activity (whatever that activity may be)?


that isnt my point tho. What im saying is who you get (or rather dont get) attending these events may be dependent on what they believe they can expect to find if they come along to a real life meeting. If they expect bickering, fighting, personality cliques, in-jokes etc. then that is going to put off a lot of people. You dismiss the effect that bulletin boards _can_ have on people's perceptions of the 'movement' too easily i think. It might not mean much to those that know you personally, are confident enough in their own views/abilities, or are not put off by some of the nastiness that comes up here time and again. But that might be different if youre 18, new to politics and dont know anyone else that feels like you... 

We could *all* do with a bit more consideration of and empathy with these things sometimes  

So my point is that to blame non-attendance simply on personalites (or politics) rather than accept that there _might_ a problem with the process is to remain wilfully ignorant.

... stringing out the analogy with women and politics further... its like finding the conclusion that the reason many women avoid meetings or getting involved generally in stuff is because they're not interested in politics    




			
				montevideo said:
			
		

> Probably wouldn't surprise you to know that the soundsystem debacle at the wetherspoons was initiated by women.


whats that got to do with anything?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 28, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> Probably wouldn't surprise you to know that the soundsystem debacle at the wetherspoons was initiated by women.



????!!!!  bovvad, am i bovad?


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 28, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> that isnt my point tho. What im saying is who you get (or rather dont get) attending these events may be dependent on what they believe they can expect to find if they come along to a real life meeting. If they expect bickering, fighting, personality cliques, in-jokes etc. then that is going to put off a lot of people. You dismiss the effect that bulletin boards _can_ have on people's perceptions of the 'movement' too easily i think. It might not mean much to those that know you personally, are confident enough in their own views/abilities, or are not put off by some of the nastiness that comes up here time and again. But that might be different if youre 18, new to politics and dont know anyone else that feels like you...



I totally agree and think these are important points. And you don't have to be new to politics to be put off by bulletin board banter, I rarely post on Libcom because I find the atmosphere of it totally off putting. People should remember that for every poster, there are dozens (hundreds?) of lurkers. I find it amazing that people aren't aware of how "public" the internet is.


I think Monty mentioned that it was women that started out the soundsytem muppetry because there was an implication in your earlier post that women weren't into that sort of action (you wrote something about women not being attracted to discussions in pubs ), so he was pointing out a counter case which indicates that your assumption is incorrect.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 28, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> And you don't have to be new to politics to be put off by bulletin board banter,


absolutely




			
				sovietpop said:
			
		

> I think Monty mentioned that it was women that started out the soundsytem muppetry because there was an implication in your earlier post that women weren't into that sort of action (you wrote something about women not being attracted to discussions in pubs ), so he was pointing out a counter case which indicates that your assumption is incorrect.


my point wasnt so much about the bookfair stuff, more about giving consideration to things that exclude people attending _meetings_ ... for eg. where there are childcare issues (_that_ was my point about pubs) or for those (unfortunates  ) that dont drink alcohol, dont like rowdy pub atmospheres etc. etc.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 28, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> I rarely post on Libcom because I find the atmosphere of it totally off putting. People should remember that for every poster, there are dozens (hundreds?) of lurkers. I find it amazing that people aren't aware of how "public" the internet is.



it's also interesting to think that is down to just two individuals as well in most cases


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 28, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> . for eg. where there are childcare issues (_that_ was my point about pubs) or for those (unfortunates  ) that dont drink alcohol, dont like rowdy pub atmospheres etc. etc.



grand. accepted. but it's not childcare issues that is preventing women from being involved in left wing politics (or rather not alone, I mean they only become issues when women have children, if it was only childcare, you'd expect lots of young women in the movement, gradually dropping out as they had kids).

I suspect the reasons are bigger than the anarchist movement, more to do with womens accepted role in society and the gendered division of space (male public/political space vs female personal/private space). but I really don't know. I don't even know how you'd go about finding out the answer....


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 28, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> I suspect the reasons are bigger than the anarchist movement, more to do with womens accepted role in society and the gendered division of space (male public/political space vs female personal/private space). but I really don't know. I don't even know how you'd go about finding out the answer....


me either! But i think awareness of some barriers that can and do prevent people that would like to be involved is a good first step   

The one about children/families is one i think that applies to both sexes actually as it is still predomiantly a movement dominated by young people (yet another question!). But yeah... i deliberately _didnt_ pose the alternative perennial question of "why are there so few black people/minorities in the @ movement" precisely because of your point that 





> the reasons are bigger than the anarchist movement


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## Top Dog (Oct 28, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> ... FInally the repressive function and history of the police does not disappear even if they were acting against 'anti socials' in the first instance, they managed to treat ordinary people like shit down holloway road, swearing at them, agressive and violent as they were to non crusties...


catch and I are still waiting for an answer


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## montevideo (Oct 28, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> that isnt my point tho. What im saying is who you get (or rather dont get) attending these events may be dependent on what they believe they can expect to find if they come along to a real life meeting. If they expect bickering, fighting, personality cliques, in-jokes etc. then that is going to put off a lot of people. You dismiss the effect that bulletin boards _can_ have on people's perceptions of the 'movement' too easily i think. It might not mean much to those that know you personally, are confident enough in their own views/abilities, or are not put off by some of the nastiness that comes up here time and again. But that might be different if youre 18, new to politics and dont know anyone else that feels like you...
> 
> We could *all* do with a bit more consideration of and empathy with these things sometimes
> 
> ...




but surely _'the movement'_ would be judged on what it did rather than a few individuals trading insults across the superhighway. And this largely is the problem i have with the anti-socials - their refusal to participate in anything at all on any level.

What i heard 80 or so people turned up at the assembly. I'm not arguing numbers though. Or non-attendance. I'm arguing the process of coming together as a starting point. People who choose to come together do so because they think they have something to contribute, those who exclude themselves do so because they have nothing to contribute. I wouldn't disagree with either of those positions.

If you are 18 & read a flyer about the anarchist assembly handed out at the bookfair that read -

_"this is not a debate about who lays claim to the best variety of 'anarchism', we feel 'the anarchist movement' has matured enough to recognise all genuine expresions of anarchist intent as valid and, if passionately held, as vital and necessary. No this assembly is an attempt to bring people together through what we choose to agree on, how we choose to work together, how we articuklate our desires, build on our similarities...
We invite all those who consider anarchism an idea worth fighting for and an activity worth defending"_ 

would you be put off? In fact you can't get a more inclusive, open, concilatory invitation than that? So i honestly don't know what you're trying to say here. 

And as you well know i'm an absolute pussycat in real life.


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## Top Dog (Oct 28, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> If you are 18 & read a flyer about the anarchist assembly handed out at the bookfair that read...
> 
> would you be put off? In fact you can't get a more inclusive, open, concilatory invitation than that? *So i honestly don't know what you're trying to say here*.






			
				This is what im saying: said:
			
		

> You dismiss the effect that bulletin boards can have on people's perceptions of the 'movement' too easily i think. It might not mean much to those that know you personally, are confident enough in their own views/abilities, or are not put off by some of the nastiness that comes up here time and again. But that might be different if youre 18, new to politics and dont know anyone else that feels like you...


so im not suggesting that the @ist assembly (meeting & flyer text) was anything other than a genuine attempt to do what it says... but the first step _isnt_ to put a flyer into the hands of an already present audience... it is to get people through the doors to the bookfair in the first place. And if your impressions of @ists/@ism have been influenced by following things from a distance... lurking here for instance reading u75 exchanges... then you might be disinclined to go along if you thought it was gonna be a public slanging match


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## blamblam (Oct 28, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> but surely _'the movement'_ would be judged on what it did rather than a few individuals trading insults across the superhighway. And this largely is the problem i have with the anti-socials - their refusal to participate in anything at all on any level.


[For people who don't realise, the "anti-socials" comment is directed at me, other libcom people, etc.]

That's just the thing though - I'll participate (as will other people in libcom/social anarchists) in things that affect me, things I give a shit about, things that affect my life - at work, for example. 

Participating in alienated subcultural politico spectacles with people like you, and others who inhabit the politico subscene - miscellaneous liars, backstabbers, anti-social muppets, fantasists, nutcases etc.* - doesn't interest me in the slightest. Nor does it most people. And why the hell would it? 



* NB there are of course a lot of great human beings in the politico subculture, but you can still see them without having to "participate" in pointless activistoid stuff.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2005)

from today's islington tribune (which had to be typed in as it's not published on the net, i think):

Officers accused of over reaction as riot police clear drinkers from pub
ACTIVISTS CLASS WITH POLICE IN BATTLE OF THE GHETTO BLASTER
by Roisin Gadelrab

MISSILES were thrown at police when anarchists were ejected from a Holloway pub for playing a ghetto-blaster on Saturday.

Traffic in busy Holloway Road was halted as trouble erupted after the anarchists attending a book fair at the London Voluntary Resource Centre were asked to leave the nearby Coronet pub. Several arrests were made and two police officers were injured.

Pub regulars and Arsenal supporters found themselves caught up in the confrontation when more than 100 drinkers were pushed onto the street after managers decided to shut the Wetherspoon-owned pub.

They had repeatedly asked customers to adhere to the pub's strict no-music policy.

Holloway Road was blocked for some time as police attempted to control the situation. 

Some customers have since criticised police for what they say was a "disproportionate" response to an incident which they say had already been resolved.

Pat Cassidy, a member of left-wing activist movement Class War, said: "The police turned up tooled up. At least one arrested man was trussed up and hooded, like the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay

"The calm situation became highly charged when riot police appeared at the scene.

"They then cleared the area, forcing people up the road with scant concern for who they shoved.

"In fact, they vied with each other to see who could push people the hardest up Holloway Road."

He added: "There's never been anything like this before at the book fair, which has been going on for 20 years."

Green Party worker Jon Nott witnessed the trouble when he went for a drink after canvassing residents. 

He said: "Some people who didn't like the pub's no-music policy had got their ghetto-blaster out.

"They were being a bit irritating but they weren't being violent."

Mr Nott added: "What started off with a minor dispute ended up with a stand-off in Holloway Road. The police probably overreacted. They came in with riot shields and started hemming people in and when you have a large crowd it escalates."

A police spokeswoman confirmed several people were arrested for public order offences.

She said: "Police attempted to eject the crowd, believed to be approximately 100 people. As the crowd spilled outside the pub a number of missiles were thrown at police and it is believed two officers received minor injuries.

"Holloway Road southbound was blocked for a time during the incident."


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## Paul Marsh (Oct 28, 2005)

*Bump, Bang and Baloney!*

And from the Class War newswire:

http://londonclasswar.org/newswire_londonanarchistbookfair.htm


----------



## sihhi (Oct 28, 2005)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> And from the Class War newswire:
> 
> http://londonclasswar.org/newswire_londonanarchistbookfair.htm



That's well summed up. 


> The 2005 bookfair will perhaps be best remembered for the “bookfair riot” a small disturbance that occurred on Holloway Road as the bookfair ended, but *has already been hyped beyond all proportion*



Hyped by police and to quote icepick "anti-social muppets" alike.


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## sovietpop (Oct 28, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> it's also interesting to think that is down to just two individuals as well in most cases




Ach I know. If I was involved in the Libcom project I'd be pretty pissed off with them but instead  it seems that they are allowed to set the tone of the board.

[edit to add: this is quite an old document (and probably needs editing), but perhaps is relevant; it outlines how WSM thinks it should relate to other left groups. 

wsm policy paper ]


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## blamblam (Oct 28, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> Ach I know. If I was involved in the Libcom project I'd be pretty pissed off with them but instead  it seems that they are allowed to set the tone of the board.


There's not that much mods can do - we get accused of authoritarianism all the time as it is - even down to one of montevideo's Womrades trying to trash our jointly-held meeting at the bookfair (which was well shite anyway) with it . The only way to change the forum culture I think is sheer force of numbers of people who'll act differently (more polite, or what have you).


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 28, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> The only way to change the forum culture I think is sheer force of numbers of people who'll act differently (more polite, or what have you).



But the way it is at the moment, who is going to bother? Who is going to put up with the abuse? 

You could have a statement of what you believe is acceptable practise and what isn't, and delete comments which contravene your statement. That's what indymedia Ireland do. Yes those you delete will call you authoriatarian but the rest of us wil be delighted (and those you delete may learn to alter their behaviour).

edited to add: these are the Indymedia Ireland editoral guidelines guidelines
You could definitely do with number four.

4: Libelous or slanderous posts. Choose your language carefully. Do not make allegations against named individuals unless you can substantiate them. Posts which contain personal abuse against named individuals, rather than against their arguments or their political affiliation, will be removed without delay, particularly if those individuals are not public figures. 'Play the ball, not the player'.


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## blamblam (Oct 28, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> But the way it is at the moment, who is going to bother? Who is going to put up with the abuse?


People who get something out of posting there. It's only a web forum. I'd say politically it's almost entirely useless, so not worth much angst or bother really.


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## catch (Oct 28, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> There's not that much mods can do - we get accused of authoritarianism all the time as it is - even down to one of montevideo's Womrades trying to trash our jointly-held meeting at the bookfair (which was well shite anyway) with it . The only way to change the forum culture I think is sheer force of numbers of people who'll act differently (more polite, or what have you).



I'd also say there's less flaming on libcom than there is on here, or at least the politics forums on here. The difference with urban is there's loads of fluffier forums which balance it all out, and simply much more traffic so it's easier to avoid threads which have gone into pages of fighting. the forum culture on libcom is improving as well, slowly, but it's improving.


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## Random (Oct 28, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> People who get something out of posting there. It's only a web forum. I'd say politically it's almost entirely useless, so not worth much angst or bother really.



Over on libcom several people have described writing for libcom as important political work; I'm sure you don't need me to name names.  Face it -- you put loads of time and effor into libcom, as do a few other people.  because of that you have the right to run it as you like, but don't try to have it both ways by saying 'its only a website', as though that excuses all kinds of anti-social behaviour.

LimCom's got much better, however.  In fact, recently it's been out-performing U75 for days on end, politics-wise.  Often I'll not post something on urban because I know it'll get trashed by liberals or sleazers, but if on libcom it'll get a reasonably political response.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 28, 2005)

thats good to hear, maybe I gave up on it too soon.


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## blamblam (Oct 28, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Over on libcom several people have described writing for libcom as important political work; I'm sure you don't need me to name names.  Face it -- you put loads of time and effor into libcom, as do a few other people.  because of that you have the right to run it as you like, but don't try to have it both ways by saying 'its only a website', as though that excuses all kinds of anti-social behaviour.
> 
> LimCom's got much better, however.  In fact, recently it's been out-performing U75 for days on end, politics-wise.  Often I'll not post something on urban because I know it'll get trashed by liberals or sleazers, but if on libcom it'll get a reasonably political response.


Nah I agree even the forums have got a lot better (there are too many posts for even me to read them all now for one, and some ace new posters) - I wasn't talking about the site as a whole which I think could be really ace, I meant the forums in particular, which are IMO the least important of the sections. Okay maybe more important than the listings.


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## catch (Oct 28, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Over on libcom several people have described writing for libcom as important political work; I'm sure you don't need me to name names.  Face it -- you put loads of time and effor into libcom, as do a few other people.  because of that you have the right to run it as you like, but don't try to have it both ways by saying 'its only a website', as though that excuses all kinds of anti-social behaviour.



I think John's trying to say the forums aren't as important politically as the rest of the site. I'd disagree that they're "almost useless" - they're good for thrashing ideas out and meeting people with similar politics you otherwise might not.


> LimCom's got much better, however.  In fact, recently it's been out-performing U75 for days on end, politics-wise.  Often I'll not post something on urban because I know it'll get trashed by liberals or sleazers, but if on libcom it'll get a reasonably political response.


<3


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## rednblack (Oct 28, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> thats good to hear, maybe I gave up on it too soon.



i think maybe you did, the tide is turning as random and catch have said, it has improved drastically imo. i also think icepick is wrong to say it is not politically important - it clearly is - otherwise the libcomers wouldnt put so much effort into it, i certainly think it's important it really has the potential to promote a constructive, class struggle agenda

also i don't think most of us would have a problem over strenghening the moderation culture - i reckon you should crack down on flaming outside the general forum tbh

i do think it's improved massively and i do look to libcom more and more


----------



## gurrier (Oct 28, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> There's not that much mods can do - we get accused of authoritarianism all the time as it is - even down to one of montevideo's Womrades trying to trash our jointly-held meeting at the bookfair (which was well shite anyway) with it . The only way to change the forum culture I think is sheer force of numbers of people who'll act differently (more polite, or what have you).


I disagree a lot.  The internet is replete with trolls.  You deal with them by stopping them or they dominate.  1 troll can post the word 'cock' a million times a day, whereas it takes a lot of time and effort to write something thoughtful.  If the 'cock' to 'thoughtful' ration is too high, that will be the preception of the board and people who are constructive and serious won't bother.  

The indymedia experience of 'free speech' provides a wealth of evidence that you can not rely on the weight of numbers to deal with disruption.  Every indymedia site that adopted a free speech policy (by allowing contentless abuse, racist posts, etc) collapsed quickly.  There are loads of other examples out there, from usenet, to slashdot and wikipedia which all lead to the same conclusion.

To be honest, I think the lack of willingness to tackle this problem - leaving it up to 'weight of numbers', ie somebody else's problem - is a misapplication of anarchist ideas of freedom.  Those who put work into the project have a right to set the basic rules of association and everybody else then has the choice of whether to freely associate within that project.  Leaving it up to the punters on the internet, means that you effectively give a much greater say to immature people who don't give a shit about the project but who have too much time on their hands and are amused by being disruptive - or trolls, to put it succinctly.  

My biggest problem with libcom is that, to the casual observer, it makes anarchists look like a bunch of teenage h4x0Rz - fuk de RuLeZ types, despite the fact that I know that the vast majority of people who post there are nothing like that and respect them and am interested in what they have to say.  For example, I would not consider directing my mother or my next door neighbour there as a place where she might acquaint herself with modern anarchism.  I think this highlights a certain lack of ambition on the part of anarchists, a certain comfort with existing as a sub-culture.  It's fine if you are familiar with the scene, and know that people are taking the piss in the style of the sub-culture.  But the internet is as public as you can get and there is a vast audience who are looking at all the 'cocks' and many inevitably come to the conclusion that anarchism isn't serious, just another funny sub-culture.  This frustrates me a lot as I think anarchism is an extremely serious movement and that we have arguments that can appeal to an enormous audience as long as we take ourselves and our politics seriously.  

I understand that there is a strong liberal individualist strand to modern anarchism which doesn't hold ideas like discipline or collective responsibility in high esteem.  Rather old-fashionedly I think that, in public, people who call themselves anarchists have a duty to act as ambassadors of anarchism and this extends to the internet.  In fairness, there are a fair number of posters who do this admirably on this and other boards, but I don't think that the libcom collective have taken nearly enough steps to try to ensure that the board as a whole serves this function, rather than being a place where anarchists can form a comfortable and exclusionary sub-culture.

_edited to add: I'm talking about the boards, rather than the overall site, which is a much better thing altogether_


----------



## rednblack (Oct 28, 2005)

i'd have to agree with gurrier^

and remember the problems on libcom are down largely to two individuals one of whom is an admin, and is calming down a bit i think - the other is completely out of control though...

imo

i do think on the whole libcom is excellent though


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 28, 2005)

gurrier said:
			
		

> I disagree a lot.  The internet is replete with trolls.  You deal with them by stopping them or they dominate.  1 troll can post the word 'cock' a million times a day, whereas it takes a lot of time and effort to write something thoughtful.  If the 'cock' to 'thoughtful' ration is too high, that will be the preception of the board and people who are constructive and serious won't bother.
> 
> The indymedia experience of 'free speech' provides a wealth of evidence that you can not rely on the weight of numbers to deal with disruption.  Every indymedia site that adopted a free speech policy (by allowing contentless abuse, racist posts, etc) collapsed quickly.  There are loads of other examples out there, from usenet, to slashdot and wikipedia which all lead to the same conclusion.
> 
> ...


this is an excellent post even if you have very little experience of libcom, the part about acting as ambassadors = 

nice on gurrier


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 28, 2005)

*just remembered*

When the cops were trying to clear the street and were roundly being told that maybe they should just leave, one copper shouted at the crowd as justification for waving a steel bar at them, 'We've had beer thrown at us!'



I think he meant to say something more along the lines of beer glasses or something. But he didn't say that the big silly.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 30, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> a] Orwells' general point still holds, though I am not suggesting in individual moments of weakness that 'cooperation'/ 'compromise' with the filth is wrong - if I assaulted every cop I saw I would be in prison all the time...
> 
> b] your reports are clearly wrong then.
> 
> ...



both of atticas posts are bollox!!   .. and to call yourself rebeccas child .. they'll be turning in their graves in the valleys at your confusion between genuine w/c resistance and the actions of a few pissed so called activists

 iam not suggesting that the book fair is the class struggle .. far from it .. but a stupid off onholloway road ..class struggle?? don't be daft ..


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 30, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> both of atticas posts are bollox!!   .. and to call yourself rebeccas child .. they'll be turning in their graves in the valleys at your confusion between genuine w/c resistance and the actions of a few pissed so called activists
> 
> iam not suggesting that the book fair is the class struggle .. far from it .. but a stupid off onholloway road ..class struggle?? don't be daft ..



Well we disagree don't we then - the class struggle belongs to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour.... E.P. Thompson again    

AS for Rebeccas children, they weren't the respectable types you appear to think... Rebeccas children, like the Scotch Cattle, knew who their class enemies were, and took them on when they could, always looking to spread the class struggle. You know, the one where people actually do some fighting for a change, rather than the 'ideological' sort which will change nothing. For your information there was some oppressive policing in Wales at an action recently (See latest 'Gagged' produced by Cardiff/south wales anarchists), and so I am sure Rebeccas children, and Dic Pendryn, are with those who chose to fight back rather than turn their backs.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 30, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> catch and I are still waiting for an answer



You'll be waiting for a very long time then, cos I have already said my position in posts. However,  i will add a coupla things...

The movement doesn't have to explain the minutiae of every 'problematic situation', and a genuine movement of working class people will have plenty of these anyway. You, catch, Af, SOl fed, and most of the rest of the movement really must get beyond the obsession for purity. There are thousands of bigger offs each year than the one at the bookfair, caused by all sorts of minor personal issues - but who here knows about the trouble in Newcastle city centre after a Newcastle 'fan' threw a brick at a bus of disabled Sunderland fans after the derby match recently? Far more important to have a political position on this rather than the non event in the wetherspoons. That's because of the simplistic politics (right/wrong) of the anarchist movement   it doesn't know what is politics and what is not. 

That doesn't mean that the trouble on Holloway road wasn't worth participating in, while 'there are those who choose to stand at the back and scoff'.  Didn't 'do or die' say there were those who actually do the fighting and those who talk about it too...  The rights and wrongs of their comments about the anti globalisation struggle I will discuss elsewhere however.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

TBH I think you (Durutti) share some of the political preconceptions of the old left -  Eg RA, reflected in simplistic right/wrong judgemental assumptions. Here's Hardt and Negri (Multitude); 

“Most central… is the conceptual lack concerning what the left [working class] is and what it can become. The primary old models are thoroughly discredited… Others accuse… [@ of] focussing attention on merely cultural issues to the exclusion of properly political and economic ones… Such accusations are significant symptoms of defeat [even if they pretend to have a new approach] symptoms of the fact that no new ideas have emerged that are adequate to address the crisis. If the left [@] is to be resurrected and reformed it will only be done on the basis of new practices, new forms of organisation, and new concepts…
The multitude is one concept, in our view, that can contribute to the task of resurrecting or reforming or, really, reinventing the Left by naming a form of political organisation and a political project. We do not propose the concept as a political directive… but rather a way of giving name to what is already going on and grasping the existing social and political tendency.”


----------



## rednblack (Oct 31, 2005)

i can't believe you just quoted that in a row about a minor pub skirmish on a saturday night


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> TBH I think you (Durutti) share some of the political preconceptions of the old left -  Eg RA, reflected in simplistic right/wrong judgemental assumptions. Here's Hardt and Negri (Multitude);
> 
> “Most central… is the conceptual lack concerning what the left [working class] is and what it can become. The primary old models are thoroughly discredited… Others accuse… [@ of] focussing attention on merely cultural issues to the exclusion of properly political and economic ones… Such accusations are significant symptoms of defeat [even if they pretend to have a new approach] symptoms of the fact that no new ideas have emerged that are adequate to address the crisis. If the left [@] is to be resurrected and reformed it will only be done on the basis of new practices, new forms of organisation, and new concepts…
> The multitude is one concept, in our view, that can contribute to the task of resurrecting or reforming or, really, reinventing the Left by naming a form of political organisation and a political project. We do not propose the concept as a political directive… but rather a way of giving name to what is already going on and grasping the existing social and political tendency.”



having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 31, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> You'll be waiting for a very long time then, cos I have already said my position in posts. However,  i will add a coupla things...
> 
> The movement doesn't have to explain the minutiae of every 'problematic situation', and a genuine movement of working class people will have plenty of these anyway. You, catch, Af, SOl fed, and most of the rest of the movement really must get beyond the obsession for purity. There are thousands of bigger offs each year than the one at the bookfair, caused by all sorts of minor personal issues - but who here knows about the trouble in Newcastle city centre after a Newcastle 'fan' threw a brick at a bus of disabled Sunderland fans after the derby match recently? Far more important to have a political position on this rather than the non event in the wetherspoons. That's because of the simplistic politics (right/wrong) of the anarchist movement   it doesn't know what is politics and what is not.
> 
> That doesn't mean that the trouble on Holloway road wasn't worth participating in, while 'there are those who choose to stand at the back and scoff'.  Didn't 'do or die' say there were those who actually do the fighting and those who talk about it too...  The rights and wrongs of their comments about the anti globalisation struggle I will discuss elsewhere however.


so rather than address the point you respond with more verbiage and rhetoric... so be it. It does nothing to enhance or develop anything you've said, but perhaps thats because on this you _have_ nothing to say. All _i _ will say here is, is youre trying to have it both ways: implying that what led up to people being thrown out of the pub was a _personal_ issue (because you have yet to make an adequate rebuttal of my point to you), yet the skirmish with the cops was the class war in full swing. Oh please. 

So go ahead and pigeonhole those of us that argue against this all together in the same box so that you can take us down with one devastating (_read:_ lazy) straw man critique... Its really not very convincing tho is it?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 31, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i can't believe you just quoted that in a row about a minor pub skirmish on a saturday night


But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

saying that, there is something quite nice about Negri's flowering language and quasi religious rehtoric.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 31, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.



Jesus Revol, good point. I love it when you talk politics.


----------



## knopf (Oct 31, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?



.... not to mention that a few of the more malodourous bookfairees could have done with standing a bit closer to Occam's Razor.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i can't believe you just quoted that in a row about a minor pub skirmish on a saturday night



I was talking about his ideas more generally that just down the pub... then it becomes apparent.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.



Got to say that your attempt at 'critique' is as empty as the old lefts political analysis...    nul point.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 31, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> .... not to mention that a few of the more malodourous bookfairees could have done with standing a bit closer to Occam's Razor.



you werent even there, i thought you were out buying taps with the missus


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

does it get you hard saying Ole Left? I mean I think Negri and Hardt have some good points, the only problem is they have been made better and more coherently by others. 

But seriously the "multitude" is possibly one of the most cackhanded attempts to take a social factory analysis and present it as something completely new, good for booksales but shite analysis.

So whats so empty about my critique?


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> so rather than address the point you respond with more verbiage and rhetoric... so be it. It does nothing to enhance or develop anything you've said, but perhaps thats because on this you _have_ nothing to say. All _i _ will say here is, is youre trying to have it both ways: implying that what led up to people being thrown out of the pub was a _personal_ issue (because you have yet to make an adequate rebuttal of my point to you), yet the skirmish with the cops was the class war in full swing. Oh please.
> 
> So go ahead and pigeonhole those of us that argue against this all together in the same box so that you can take us down with one devastating (_read:_ lazy) straw man critique... Its really not very convincing tho is it?




Well, the events in the wetherspoon can be seen as a minor personal incident, you see them differently, up to you. I would prefer to talk about important events rather than minor detail. It's called a 'relevant abstraction', and there's a book called "Making histories" which explains not by Thompson you'll be glad to hear. I never saw the ghetto blaster incident but I was in the pub and saw all the action outside, being next to some people who were arrested later at certain points... It wasn't the 'class struggle' in full swing - you drama queen you - but it was class struggle... as are all battles that involve the old  bill... it is impossible to say that class struggle doesn't involve the police in this or other incidents cos of the historical materialist relations that the police are grounded in... 

TBH, it is your analysis which is ahistorical, atheoretical and unconvincing... I am happy with mine as usual


----------



## kropotkin (Oct 31, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?


 Ha! Quite...

That pissed me off no end when reading Empire. 
"Negri, please stop masturbating and just say something on topic".


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

More Images from the Class Struggle?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 31, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> TBH, it is your analysis which is ahistorical, atheoretical and unconvincing... I am happy with mine as usual


then im happy for you. 

But i wouldnt dream of conflating anything _ive_ said on this thread as being anything more than opinion... analysis?   of this? give us a break!

Anyway - i mustnt keep you any longer from your class struggling... i'll let you get back to the books


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> then im happy for you.
> 
> But i wouldnt dream of conflating anything _ive_ said on this thread as being anything more than opinion... analysis?   of this? give us a break!
> 
> Anyway - i mustnt keep you any longer from your class struggling... i'll let you get back to the books



But analysis IS opinion...


----------



## knopf (Oct 31, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> you werent even there, i thought you were out buying taps with the missus



Typical of the last-century left. Still in thrall to the metaphysics of presence.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

is Attica Gangster per chance or just another crude interpreter of operismo?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 31, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> But analysis IS opinion...


...backed up with some semblance of evidence. Is analysis just opinion?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 31, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> is Attica Gangster per chance or just another crude interpreter of operismo?



one and the same


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 31, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> Well we disagree don't we then - the class struggle belongs to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour.... E.P. Thompson again
> 
> AS for Rebeccas children, they weren't the respectable types you appear to think... Rebeccas children, like the Scotch Cattle, knew who their class enemies were, and took them on when they could, always looking to spread the class struggle. You know, the one where people actually do some fighting for a change, rather than the 'ideological' sort which will change nothing. For your information there was some oppressive policing in Wales at an action recently (See latest 'Gagged' produced by Cardiff/south wales anarchists), and so I am sure Rebeccas children, and Dic Pendryn, are with those who chose to fight back rather than turn their backs.



"to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour" .. indeed     ..what labour are we talking here .. mental or physical  

 who said i thought rebeccas children were respectable? but they were w/c and involved at the face so to speak..    .. and while it is true that these currents led into the later Tu's in some ways they stood opposed and outside .. a la Germinal .. and you use Dic penderyn's name to justify your arguement over a bunch of drunk activists in a pub fight??? really mate that is an insult isn't it??

anyway so you're sticking with the old boneite class analysis that the proletariat is defined as the concious w/c vanguard??? i.e. you and a few others???? .. though i suspect he no longer belives that 

as long as we stick to this blanquist/leninst elitist crap @'s and all will remain isolated from the w/c ..


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 31, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.



good post


----------



## blamblam (Oct 31, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> is Attica Gangster per chance or just another crude interpreter of operismo?


Thankfully there's only one of them!


----------



## montevideo (Oct 31, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?



_"A liberal is the guy who leaves the room when a fight starts."_

- big bill haywood


///snigger///


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> ...backed up with some semblance of evidence. Is analysis just opinion?



Most if not all analysis is opinion dressed up as 'fact'   Certainly what passes for the anarchist movement produces almost without fail constantly wildly inadequate propaganda (and all literature is propaganda)... That you could accuse me of 'verbiage' is an example of this - what I am saying is basic though contemporary conflict analysis in relatively simple language, in a few sentences. Therefore you accusing me of 'verbiage' is pure drivel, as for the rhetoric accusation, that is also baloney too. I was arguing that for those taking part in the conflict on Holloway road the action was meaningful in a class struggle framework, basic existentialism. Again not difficult, nor extreme analysis... 

It's a fact that what passes for standards within the movement is woeful (both in terms of its decision making processes and its magazines), time for honesty comrades.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

yes and when i was fuckin my fist this morning i was thinkin i was fucking your ma.

Doesn't mean I was.

or does it


----------



## Emma Herself (Oct 31, 2005)

Ewww


----------



## revol68 (Oct 31, 2005)

apologies, that was crass.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> "to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour" .. indeed     ..what labour are we talking here .. mental or physical
> 
> who said i thought rebeccas children were respectable? but they were w/c and involved at the face so to speak..    .. and while it is true that these currents led into the later Tu's in some ways they stood opposed and outside .. a la Germinal .. and you use Dic penderyn's name to justify your arguement over a bunch of drunk activists in a pub fight??? really mate that is an insult isn't it??
> 
> ...



To answer your last 2 paragraphs - 'you've got it all wrong comrade'... No I wasn't saying they were the vanguard, I was saying it was class struggle though, just one small particular part of it, with their own experiences. 

You're assuming a lot of elitism in my argument when it isn't there. In case you're interested both Gramsci and Thompson said the law was something worth fighting over; crime is a consistently renegotiated category historically, it is not fixed, and therefore if you want to have purchase on class struggle you have to look at the struggles over the form, content and application of law...


----------



## LLETSA (Oct 31, 2005)

*Is this English or classtrugglese?  Or what?*




			
				Attica said:
			
		

> That you could accuse me of 'verbiage' is an example of this - what I am saying is basic though contemporary conflict analysis in relatively simple language, in a few sentences. Therefore you accusing me of 'verbiage' is pure drivel, as for the rhetoric accusation, that is also baloney too.





No 'verbiage' there, I see.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 31, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> Most if not all analysis is opinion dressed up as 'fact'   Certainly what passes for the anarchist movement produces almost without fail constantly wildly inadequate propaganda (and all literature is propaganda)...


and would you include Class War (the paper) in that? Did you write anything for the latest issue, out of interest?




			
				Attica said:
			
		

> That you could accuse me of 'verbiage' is an example of this - what I am saying is basic though contemporary conflict analysis in relatively simple language, in a few sentences. Therefore you accusing me of 'verbiage' is pure drivel, as for the rhetoric accusation, that is also baloney too. I was arguing that for those taking part in the conflict on Holloway road the action was meaningful in a class struggle framework, basic existentialism. Again not difficult, nor extreme analysis...


No - its as plain as the nose on your face what it is... its grandstanding. I mean... really... lets try and find you a little perspective here as you havent been able to discover it for yourself... 

We're talking about the actions of some @ pissheads in a pub which ended up with them leaving others to have a barney with the bill... and _you're_ throwing H & N quotes out around the shop... and you've ordained my feelings regarding the fracas as an "ahistorical, atheoretical" *analysis*  <very generous, given i havent provided you with any footnotes or a bibliography. Or perhaps you're saying that *because* I havent eh?> Good grief. Step back a minute and re-read the thread... 




			
				Attica said:
			
		

> It's a fact that what passes for standards within the movement is woeful (both in terms of its decision making processes and its magazines)


well i wouldnt disagree with you here but sadly you've failed to demonstrate what marks your endeavors out as any different


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 31, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> _"A liberal is the guy who leaves the room when a fight starts."_


putting words in my mouth monty?... i never descibed the >>numpty pissheads<< as liberals


----------



## rednblack (Nov 1, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> No 'verbiage' there, I see.


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 1, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

>





Don't thank me-thank him....


----------



## charlie mowbray (Nov 1, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> _"A liberal is the guy who leaves the room when a fight starts."_
> 
> - big bill haywood
> 
> ...


Funny, then, that he left the USA sharpish to go to Russia to avoid a very long prison sentence!!
And I'm not condemning him for that at all, merely throwing light on such a statement being used so crassly by you.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 1, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> No - its as plain as the nose on your face what it is... its grandstanding. I mean... really... lets try and find you a little perspective here as you havent been able to discover it for yourself...
> 
> We're talking about the actions of some @ pissheads in a pub which ended up with them leaving others to have a barney with the bill... and _you're_ throwing H & N quotes out around the shop... and you've ordained my feelings regarding the fracas as an "ahistorical, atheoretical" *analysis*  <very generous, given i havent provided you with any footnotes or a bibliography. Or perhaps you're saying that *because* I havent eh?> Good grief. Step back a minute and re-read the thread...
> 
> well i wouldnt disagree with you here but sadly you've failed to demonstrate what marks your endeavors out as any different



Individuals should not be expected to find solutions, nor have the weight of responsibility on their shoulders - I view it as movement failure, and that includes all those not in groups too, but who float around without accountability 

So grandstanding is 'talking about things in an historical and theoretical framework' is it? it seems that not only is there a Poverty of theory there is a poverty of history too, E.P. Thompson wouldn't be pleased...

I have a perspective, you have yours, they're different, no better, no worse, just different. I situate what I think in relationship with my entire life history and experience, and this is another small episode... I have chosen to specialise in 'crime', others choose differently, that is their prerogative.

As for grandstanding, if I am that grand then so be it     I call it as I see it. You did not display any theory nor history, and therefore, as i always do, I situate conflict in a framework. I don't view epochs in an absolutist manner, there is always continuity (as Thompson says), and differences too, but they evolve...

And please do stop associating me with Class War, that is lazy. I have done several other things apart from CW, in other groups and on my own, and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> Individuals should not be expected to find solutions, nor have the weight of responsibility on their shoulders - I view it as movement failure, and that includes all those not in groups too, but who float around without accountability
> 
> So grandstanding is 'talking about things in an historical and theoretical framework' is it? it seems that not only is there a Poverty of theory there is a poverty of history too, E.P. Thompson wouldn't be pleased...
> 
> ...



still no response for me then?

Your one sad fuck.


----------



## Top Dog (Nov 1, 2005)

*a little consistency wouldnt go amiss either*

first sentence...



			
				Attica said:
			
		

> Individuals should not be expected to find solutions, nor have the weight of responsibility on their shoulders - I view it as movement failure,


last sentence...






			
				Attica said:
			
		

> and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 1, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> still no response for me then?
> 
> Your one sad fuck.



I think he's busy facing the class enemy IN THE EYES.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 1, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> And please do stop associating me with Class War, that is lazy. I have done several other things apart from CW, in other groups and on my own, and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...



Which part of this did you put forward attica?


----------



## catch (Nov 1, 2005)

Just a note to sovietpop, gurrier, rednblack and others who mentioned libcom's moderating policy - we have a new stricter one in the main area of the site following a discussion in the forums. Only one poster against


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 1, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> Just a note to sovietpop, gurrier, rednblack and others who mentioned libcom's moderating policy - we have a new stricter one in the main area of the site following a discussion in the forums. Only one poster against



ah discipline! very good.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 1, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> Just a note to sovietpop, gurrier, rednblack and others who mentioned libcom's moderating policy - we have a new stricter one in the main area of the site following a discussion in the forums. Only one poster against



If you have a new set of rules why don't you wipe the slate clean and invite Mr Lustbather back?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 2, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> first sentence...
> last sentence...



There is no inconsistency - there IS movement failure, it is not individuals... 

I am trying to do something that de facto raises the standards together with some others... Of course, the movement has to want to improve too, but I do not expect miracles, infact I don't expect anything that is why I don't reply to children like revol/Letawank. I have decided only to reply to those who I think are worth it.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 2, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Which part of this did you put forward attica?



I like ale and curry... the Fat cat in Sheffield is worth a trip Or it was when I went some years ago... the Frog and Parot too, though the Heavy Metal pub in the town centre is for the Hardcore only


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## 888 (Nov 3, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> TBH, it is your analysis which is ahistorical, atheoretical and unconvincing...



Speaking to yourself, The Black Hand?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 3, 2005)

did your CD work BTW attica?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 4, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> did your CD work BTW attica?


Yup, ta again.


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