# The Brixton Bar



## Mr Retro (Apr 16, 2004)

Anybody been here yet? On the site of the old Pangea. It got a good write up on the Standard last night and is supposed to have a good selection of bottled beers.

Also going to have a late license which there is a need for I think. Hope the atmosphere is Lounge/Tongue and Groove/Albert/Rity type one. If so I reckon it could be a good addition.


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## Furvert (Apr 16, 2004)

call me a cynic, but i'd say a good write up in the standard doesn't bode well!


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## Mr Retro (Apr 16, 2004)

Furvert said:
			
		

> call me a cynic, but i'd say a good write up in the standard doesn't bode well!



Good point, but I like that guy who does bar/pub reviews becuase when he says a pub is good I've normally agreed with him. I know a lot less about bars but we'll see.


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## IntoStella (Apr 16, 2004)

It's a good venue for a late bar. No residents. What are the prices like? (Do I need to ask?  ) 

Isn't it a ''grill'' as well? So presumably you can get some cheese on toast with your bottled beer.   Mike'll like that, cheese on toast being the national dish of Wales.


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## Anna Key (Apr 16, 2004)

Is it a Bar or a Bah?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 16, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Is it a Bar or a Bah?




That's a very important question


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## Mr Retro (Apr 16, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Is it a Bar or a Bah?



Yet to be establised, though I doubt it will be by me. Just might be handy for late drinks (provided they don't charge in, and it's not a bah)


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## twistedAM (Apr 16, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Is it a Bar or a Bah?



nice one...just wondering if bah refers to hurrah accents or as in bah, the sound a sheep (eg people with hurrah accents) makes, but then again that would probably mean it's a baa


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## IntoStella (Apr 16, 2004)

twisted said:
			
		

> nice one...just wondering if bah refers to hurrah accents or as in bah, the sound a sheep makes, but then again that would probably mean it's a baa


 You mean like Living Baaaaaa.  







"Oh hey! Taluuulaah! Faaancy seeing _you_ here! Laaarry darling, have you met Taluulaah? "


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 16, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> You mean like Living Baaaaaa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




baaaaaahger orff


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> It got a good write up on the Standard last night


Our friend Mr Rayner perhaps?

There's already been a short thread on this here


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## Mr Retro (Apr 16, 2004)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Our friend Mr Rayner perhaps?
> 
> There's already been a short thread on this here



Sorry I looked but didn't see that thread.

No it's not Rayner - I can't remember the guys name but he always looks half pissed in his photo and his opinion seems good to me. 

Maybe I will go tonight. If I do I'll report back.


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## Aitch (Apr 16, 2004)

From walking passed it looks characterless and boring but I'll reserve judgement


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## lang rabbie (Apr 16, 2004)

Evening Standard said:
			
		

> Underneath the arches among the fish and fruit shops on the vibrant Atlantic Road, a new bar has burst onto the south-London scene. The earthy and urban Brixton Bar and Grill is a cool and slinky place to hang out, serving a large variety of wine and some rather special cocktails...



Enough said...?


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## IntoStella (Apr 17, 2004)

I move that we go out and shoot all hacks who cannot use the word Brixton without inserting the word vibrant in the same sentence.

Likewise 'edgy'.


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## Anna Key (Apr 17, 2004)

(((Hacks)))


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## Ms T (Apr 17, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I move that we go out and shoot all hacks who cannot use the word Brixton without inserting the word vibrant in the same sentence.
> 
> Likewise 'edgy'.



Shall I get Hendo to buy a flak jacket then?


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## IntoStella (Apr 17, 2004)

Ms T said:
			
		

> Shall I get Hendo to buy a flak jacket then?


I'm sure Hendo would never DREAM of using such lazy cliches to describe Brixton.


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## Choc (Apr 17, 2004)

don't judge the day before night falls...

 

i'm sure i'm gonna be in there sooner later. 

_thinks: mrm, exciting, a new bar = new luck!_

will report back


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## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2004)

I saw the review in the Standards Metro and it made me want to reach for the sick bag.Ill try and dig it out and post up some of the choice comments.

  It was in the vein of Clapham comes to Brixton(the owners run another bar in Venn st0-is Brixton ready for this yet.


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## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2004)

Found the Metro,heres some choice quotes:

  "Coldharbour Lane,Electric Avenue and Atlantic Rd-an enclave recognised by friend and foe alike as the frontline in the battleground   that Brixton once was  .The areas colourful past and workaday present seemed to be its trump card against gentrification  ,but this hitherto safely immobile neighbourhood is bracing itself now that a vision of the future has arrived  "

  "But is this the vision for the future of Brixton?Perhaps its ahead of its time,as I reckon it might be just a little overly ambitious for your average Brixton punter and their pockets." 

  Still the reviewer thought the food was good.And its run by the "team" who run two bars in Venn st(Rapscallion and Sequel)."Girlie-style" cocktails are six quid-so that gives you an idea of the prices.

  I really object to West End prices in Brixton.


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## hendo (Apr 18, 2004)

The reviewer, Edward Sullivan gave it two stars, which apparently means very good in Standardese.

The review claimed that six quid cocktails were "reasonably priced".

There's "a short tapas menu" divided into five sections. 

He describes it thus:

"Snacks, seafood, vegetarian meat and sweet'n'savoury. We had chorizo sausages (#3), char grilled sausages {3.50) duck breast with plum sauce (5.50) and (two) medallions of beef (6) - all cooked to perfection, nicely presented and flavoursome." he wrote.

"I will go back," he added  "because there's a job needs doing sorting out their cocktail list. But is this the vision for the future of Brixton? Perhaps it's ahead of its time, as I reckon it might be just a little overly ambitious for your average Brixton punter and their pockets."

I reckon he could well be right.


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## editor (Apr 18, 2004)

"Wide selection of bottled beers" is often _StyleBarSpeak_ for a "wide selection of expensive, wallet-sapping knobby bottled beers with no cheap, on tap alternatives".

But I'll withhold judgement 'til I've had time to check the place out.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 20, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I move that we go out and shoot all hacks who cannot use the word Brixton without inserting the word vibrant in the same sentence.
> 
> Likewise 'edgy'.


I'll second that!

Likewise 'colourful' , 'melting pot' etc etc.



> "Wide selection of bottled beers" is often StyleBarSpeak for a "wide selection of expensive, wallet-sapping knobby bottled beers with no cheap, on tap alternatives".


Spot on. Bars which don't do beer on tap REALLY FUCK ME OFF! And I think they rarely deserve my custom. Why do they do it? Could it be that their pretty little heads cant deal with all those tubes and barrels? Or maybe their customers prefer bottled piss? Or maybe there's not enough room for the pumps. Or *maybe* the mark up on bottled beer is something like 200%?


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## Ol Nick (Apr 20, 2004)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> ISpot on. Bars which don't do beer on tap REALLY FUCK ME OFF! And I think they rarely deserve my custom.


Atlantic66 has beers on tap. Meeting the needs of the community, you see?


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## Streathamite (Apr 20, 2004)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> I'll second that!
> Or *maybe* the mark up on bottled beer is something like 200%?


ahhh! you got there eventually...that plus the price is often the same as that of a pint on draught YET there's much less in the bottle....so punters drink more of them. Also, it's a helluva lot easier to make a bottled beer trendy than a pint on draught.


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## Anna Key (Apr 20, 2004)

And it's much easier to bring in bottled beer in a van from France and shove it through open tills to pissed up yuppies late at night.

Not that any Brixton bar - including this one which I've never been to - would ever do such a thing.


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## rennie (Apr 20, 2004)

does anyone know what the opening hours are? went by yesterday night post albert early drinks n it was pretty crowded in there (seemed like smartly dressed crowd but i will reserve my judgement) but the guy inside said they were not open. hmmm.
anyone been already?


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## isvicthere? (Apr 21, 2004)

Furvert said:
			
		

> call me a cynic, but i'd say a good write up in the standard doesn't bode well!



Pooh! Furvert beat me to it.


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## IntoStella (Apr 21, 2004)

reNnIe said:
			
		

> does anyone know what the opening hours are? went by yesterday night post albert early drinks n it was pretty crowded in there (seemed like smartly dressed crowd but i will reserve my judgement) but the guy inside said they were not open. hmmm.
> anyone been already?


 Perhaps what he really meant was ''we're not open if you've got a geezer with a lopsided mohican with you".    Sounds like door policy to me.


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## LJbundy (Apr 21, 2004)

Right then,

Actually went there last night. Girlfriend chose the venue after I took her to the Phoenix at the weekend. (what can i say, I'm a cheap date)

First off, the inside is basically the same as Pangea but the tables are a ridiculously low to the ground. You end up half bending over the table with your knees around your ears as you eat.

Staff were very friendly without being overbearing - gave us plenty of time to make our order and when we were finished didn't make any attempt to hurry us out. Asked us about where we came from in brixton and seemed genuinely interested to find out about us. Music was relaxed stylebar-ish Ibiza chill out type stuff. Not my personal tastes but inoffensive enough for a restaurant.

When we got there it was pretty empty and, as with Pangea, the back room was completely empty. It did fill up a bit as the night went on. Everyone in there looked like your typical young urban professional types - a bit Claphamesque. This will probably wind some people up but I can't raise the effort to be arsed about it.

Drinks were pricy - they've got Stella and some german lager on tap at £3. I think the bottled beers were more expensive but to be honest I didn't really look past the Stella. There was a wine list and some extrodinarily expensive cocktails but I didn't see anyone drinking them when we were there. everyone else seemed to also be drinking Stella.

Now the food - It was tapas so the portions were tiny. The menu was also quite small (about 15-20 choices) but....

the food was absolutley amazing. figs with goats cheese and pancetta, deep fried anchovies wrapped in sage, lamb medallions, fresh bread and tapenade, flame grilled king prawns - while it may all sound a bit wanky it was probably the best tasting food i've had since coming down to London four years ago.

But, as I say the portion's were tiny and at up to £5.50 a plate it doesn't make for a cheap meal considering you'd have to have at least three or four plates to calm a hunger (or at least I did).

If it was slightly cheaper I would probably go back regularly. As it is I'm going to stick with Fujiyama as first choice restaurant in Brixton and maybe go back there every now and again for a special occasion. If the beers were cheaper I'd probably also go in there for a quiet pint.

In brief 7/10? Good effort, but a bit pricy.

LJ "Egon Ronay" Bundy


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## IntoStella (Apr 21, 2004)

LJbundy said:
			
		

> Asked us about where we came from in brixton


They only let you in if you live in Brixton? 

Sounds like the Editorial Group's kinda place.   But, as I say the portion's were tiny and at up to £5.50 a plate it doesn't make for a cheap meal considering you'd have to have at least three or four plates to calm a hunger (or at least I did).[/QUOTE] That must've stung after the Phoenix. 

The food sounds lovely. Maybe I could get a mortgage on a night out there?


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 21, 2004)

Cheers LJB, sounds like a reasonable assessment. The place is expensive though - I don't think I could afford to eat there properly with a few £3 pints on top!

Intersting to note you said it looked like Pangaea inside - when I walked past it looked totally silver and shiny, and _totally _ different from Pangaea. But I *was* pissed at the time....


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## LJbundy (Apr 21, 2004)

No, your right, badly phrased by me. I meant that they hadn't made any major structural modifications.

Oh, and I forgot to say, the fruit and dipping sauce combo is bloody outstanding. Christ knows what the red dipping sauce was but it took me back to eating sherbet cubes as a nipper - same blow your head off flavour...


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## twistedAM (Apr 21, 2004)

"figs with goats cheese and pancetta"

mmm...sounds wonderful; might even be tempted by that but the rest of LJ's comments put me off. If they only have Stella in draught that's pretty bad too. I hate that stuff.


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## rennie (Apr 21, 2004)

so IS you're saying that because ive got a tall geezer with a bleached blond lopsided mohican and combat trousers with a massive courier bag i'm not allowed into Brixton finer dinner establishments?!!!    

n here i was thinking that  it was me, the dirty Aaaarab that was being profiled!hehehe


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## Pie 1 (Apr 21, 2004)

We went and had a try on Saturday night. Pretty much found it as LJ describes - very pleasent staff etc. The food was good...very good, but the price of it is pretty extreme for what you get & the drinks are bloody dear too. I think the cheapest bottle of plonk was £16 or £17   
It was nice but we soon found ourselves lamenting the passing of a great cheap(ish) eatery ( Pangea) in favour of a cheek suckingly expensive snack bar.


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## dum dum (Apr 21, 2004)

If anyones seen Belleville Rendez vous the slimy waiter as found employment at Brixton Bar Grill.


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## IntoStella (Apr 21, 2004)

dum dum said:
			
		

> If anyones seen Belleville Rendez vous the slimy waiter as found employment at Brixton Bar Grill.


  Haha! I get the picture.


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## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

It doesn't sound very interesting. Any atmosphere, or funny incidents or characters or anything other than mildness? don't care about the drinks much, what about the people? Any live people atall?

Sounds, er, well, bland.


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## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

Maybe you should start going there then hatboy to make the place more interesting and vibrant and less bland and mild?


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## sophie (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy...if it doesn't sound very interesting to you then please feel free not to go there.

yes there is an atmosphere maybe not to your specific liking but again you don't have to go.

funny incidents?!?! well i didn't see anyone wearing ironic hats if that's what you mean..

characters?!!? well yes i think you find every individual on this planet has a character that is after all which makes us human. What particular character
traits would you like to see the inhabitants of this bar dispalying?!!?

bland...no not to me...but then i am twentysomething professional who doesn't mind paying for £6 cocktails in a stylish enviornmnet...does that make me bland?!!?


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## aurora green (Apr 22, 2004)

I've never called anyone a troll before, but really sophie...
Its either that, or the most unfriendly first post I've ever read.


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## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

Welcome to the boards Sophie.   

I think its fair to say there's a division of opinion on these boards about ventures like the Brixton Bar and Grill.

Some of us feel that Brixton's accessibility to people on lower income groups is gradually being reduced, and that the area's eclectic and artistic character is in some undefinable way diluted by the arrival of twenty something professionals.

The BBG might seem to them to be the visible part of the iceberg of gentrification, which is a word not used on these boards in a universally positive sense.   

Others of us feel that any new business on Atlantic Road, particularly one that brings money and life into the area, is a thing to be applauded rather than denounced.

I'm in the last group.


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## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

I think Hendo is right, we should be welcoming new businesses, and Sophie has a point too. Surely people should be able to drink/eat/hang out wherever they what, whether that is the guys who hang out at the top of CHL or the people who want to go the a new bar? 
Anyway, its hard enough to get a new business off the ground. Why does every one have to snipe about it? We should be more encouraging.


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## twistedAM (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> It doesn't sound very interesting. Any atmosphere, or funny incidents or characters or anything other than mildness? don't care about the drinks much, what about the people? Any live people atall?
> 
> Sounds, er, well, bland.



yeah but if the food is a good as has been said that would get me there and it doesn't sound that much more expensive than a blowout at the sushi place

don't think i'd be hanging around long in case sophie spilt a cocktail over me


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I've never called anyone a troll before, but really sophie...
> Its either that, or the most unfriendly first post I've ever read.




Has to be a troll.  It's Sophie's first post


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## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Has to be a troll.  It's Sophie's first post


But her chum  Amy must be for real, surely?


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## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

And now I look at it it seems there is a certain stylistic similarity between Sophie's first post and Amy's first post.


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## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

A simple IP search will reveal who it is.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> And now I look at it it seems there is a certain stylistic similarity between Sophie's first post and Amy's first post.




They're in cahoots or they're the same person


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## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

That's becuase we're friends


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## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

OK, I'm opening a book on this..

Who d'you reckon? 

Ace?

Fanta?

Anna key has an alibi: I was with him when Sophie posted and the library doesn't open till 10.  (How's that for forensic?)

Not pooka or newbie.

Larry? 

Gramsci?   

Mr BC?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> A simple IP search will reveal who it is.




Not being a technie I wouldn't know anything about that


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Course it's not a troll.  Sophie and Amy are probably grammar school girls from Richmond


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## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

Of course, and our real names are Henrietta and Isabella!


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## miss minnie (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> A simple IP search will reveal who it is.


how very welcoming, frisking people on the way into the brixton forum - talk about a door policy! 

anyway, in order to quell suspicions i have checked ips and emails and it would appear that the two new users are completely separate people who have not previously been registered on urban.

so, welcome sophie and amy!


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## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Course it's not a troll.  Sophie and Amy are probably grammar school girls from Richmond


 Oh! I thought they were Sloanies slumming it in Clapham.


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## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> anyway, in order to quell suspicions i have checked ips and emails and it would appear that the two new users are completely separate people who have not previously been registered on urban.
> 
> so, welcome sophie and amy!



Thank for the welcome!  

anyhoo, I have been registered for over a year, just too scared to post!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Oh! I thought they were Sloanies slumming it in Clapham.




Well could be that as well.  Suppose if they get too skint they can pawn their strings of pearls


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> how very welcoming, frisking people on the way into the brixton forum - talk about a door policy!
> 
> anyway, in order to quell suspicions i have checked ips and emails and it would appear that the two new users are completely separate people who have not previously been registered on urban.
> 
> so, welcome sophie and amy!




Yeah, but I'm a temp.  I could log a new handle at every job I go to.


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## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> A simple IP search will reveal who it is.


Great!!

What's that then?

I reckon they're both hatboy.


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## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> anyhoo, I have been registered for over a year, just too scared to post!



I feel ashamed. Still, welcome Amy.


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## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Welcome Sophie and Amy. Sorry you got frisked.   




			
				hendo said:
			
		

> Some of us feel that Brixton's accessibility to people on lower income groups is gradually being reduced, and that the area's eclectic and artistic character is in some undefinable way diluted by the arrival of twenty something professionals.
> 
> The BBG might seem to them to be the visible part of the iceberg of gentrification, which is a word not used on these boards in a universally positive sense.
> 
> ...


I'm in the first group.   

A venture such as BBG, with its pricing policy, effectively slaps poor people across the face. This makes them angry and resentful. They feel - and become - "socially excluded." 

Some people just don't like being slapped - the ungrateful buggers.

So BBG can be described as "an engine of social exclusion."

A venue which previously sold fairly cheap food - Pangea - has been replaced by a venue selling fairly expensive food.

This may not be BBG's fault. I don't know how much rent they pay and perhaps they need to charge a lot of money - for delicious small portions served by extremely friendly staff - to break even. And perhaps Pangea left because of a rent-hike.

But whatever the book keeping economics, the net result is:

- Cheap place closes
- Expensive place opens
- Poor people are excluded

The same happened with:

Dogstar (formally the Atlantic)
Living Bar (formally the Coach & Horses)
The Queen (yuppiefied)
Brady's (permanently shut)

If you're a free market economist all this is fine. It's simply the shoe pinching as money flushes about and an area gentrifies. Nothing stays the same. All is cash-lubricated flux.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Particularly at BBG.

But I'm not a free market economist. Rents can be pegged. Planning and licensing laws can be deployed to encourage some ventures, discourage others.

There's no need for poor people to be slapped. 

But they are slapped because (a) someone wants to slap them or (b) nobody cares or (c) the wealthy are sufficiently scared to keep their hands to themselves.


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## sophie (Apr 22, 2004)

grammar school in Surrey actually...and yes indeed if ever short of a few bob i could pawn one of my 4 sets of pearls...

thank you for the welcome..


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## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> I feel ashamed.


So you should. You're a damn scary fellow Mr H. And that Ms T...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

> =Anna KeyThe same happened with:
> 
> Dogstar (formally the Atlantic)
> Living Bar (formally the Coach & Horses)
> ...



and the White Horse, The George IV and The Telegraph


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## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> how very welcoming, frisking people on the way into the brixton forum - talk about a door policy!
> 
> anyway, in order to quell suspicions i have checked ips and emails and it would appear that the two new users are completely separate people who have not previously been registered on urban.
> 
> so, welcome sophie and amy!


 That's good, because Mike told me a few minutes ago that there were technical problems with the admin panel and he couldn't do this. Glad to see you've got it sorted out so quickly. 

And glad to see that the Brixton bar and grill has got Sophie and Amy so fired up that they have both decided to come out in its defence at the same time.  You're right, of course. It doesn't look the least bit suspicious.  

Minnie the minx -- watch the tonality, young lady...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> grammar school in Surrey actually...and yes indeed if ever short of a few bob i could pawn one of my 4 sets of pearls...
> 
> thank you for the welcome..




Well I was near enough then  







Sophie and Amy


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## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> A venture such as BBG, with its pricing policy, effectively slaps poor people across the face. This makes them angry and resentful. They feel - and become - "socially excluded."


Who are these eggshell personalities who feel "slapped" because there are richer people than them in the world? If they -- whoever they are --  have a problem, then it is surely their problem to deal with. It's no good living in Brixton and assuming the world of richer people has nothing to do with you. The rich are always with us.

Having said which...I'd personally have preferred a mid-range workaday place like Pangaea to stay as it was. And the Brixton Grill Bah doesn't have Atlantic66's excuse of opening up a new building. It exists at the expense of something else.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Minnie the minx -- watch the tonality, young lady...




Yes Miss  

anyway, like I said, if they have access to lots of PCs, they could have loads of handles no?


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## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> and the White Horse, The George IV and The Telegraph



Sorry. So the list goes:

*Dogstar (formally the Atlantic)
Living Bar (formally the Coach & Horses)
The Queen (yuppiefied)
Brady's (permanently shut)
White Horse (yuppiefied)
The George IV (yuppiefied) 
The Telegraph (yuppiefied)
BBG (formally Pangea, now an "engine of social exclusion")*

Any more?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Sorry. So the list goes:
> 
> *Dogstar (formally the Atlantic)
> Living Bar (formally the Coach & Horses)
> ...



The Hope - vodkafied


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## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> Who are these eggshell personalities who feel "slapped" because there are richer people than them in the world?


The problem isn't the presence of rich people in the world - some of my best wives have been rich people    - it's when the rich nick stuff from the poor. When they _exclude_ the poor from areas they previously occupied. That's the slapping I'm referring to. 

Sometimes it's called 'colonisation' and those 'colonised' tend to object. Are you suggesting they should 'take it on the chin?'


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## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Plan B -- formerly the Wimpy!  Seriously, apart from the Beehive, the aroma of which does not mix well with a fresh hangover, where else can you get a dirt  cheap fry-up on a Sunday morning? Brixton is an egg-and-chip desert!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> The Hope - vodkafied




Although it didn't last


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## sophie (Apr 22, 2004)

i find the comment "A venture such as BBG, with its pricing policy, effectively slaps poor people across the face. This makes them angry and resentful. They feel - and become - "socially excluded."  a little hard to comprehend.

firslty what is the bench mark for being poor? homeless, unemployed, employed in a job that pays lower than the avergae wage??

do those who are not "poor" slapping others across the face when they look to enjoy the money that they work hard to earn???

when i enjoy a cocktail at the BBG am i really making others feel angry and resentful towards me??

would you suggest that i spend my spare time in the albert and only eat out at macdonalds as not to socailly exlcude others???


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Plan B -- formerly the Wimpy!  Seriously, apart from the Beehive, the aroma of which does not mix well with a fresh hangover, where else can you get a dirt  cheap fry-up on a Sunday morning? Brixton is an egg-and-chip desert!




Yep, even our working mens cafes have been yuppified


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## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> But whatever the book keeping economics, the net result is:
> 
> - Cheap place closes
> - Expensive place opens
> ...


I think that's way too simplistic an analysis.

The Coach and Horses shut because for its last five years barely a soul set foot in the place. It served dreadful beer (if the taps were working at all) and the selection of food and drink on offer could best be described as miserable. My original review of the pub described it as the 'X Files of Coldharbour Lane' because it was always eerily empty.

The Atlantic still holds the record for the least welcoming pub I've ever set foot in and much as I hated the Dogstar's initial 'whitey wine bar' image, it's established itself as a welcome addition to Brixton's late night drinkeries, populated by mixed locals during the week (the less said about weekends the better!). 

I don't think it has an exclusive policy on the door either - they certainly always let me and my scruffy mates in! After the Merrits were booted out, the pub has offered its space for a host of community ventures and I can;t say I'd prefer to have the Atlantic back, thanksverymuch.

The Queen survived on its 'jazz' licensing and much as I miss the place, it's hardly surprising that its number was eventually called. I never went there during normal drinking hours, so I've no idea if its new owners have yuppified the place or not.

And I'm not sure if the plight of Brady's is directly linked to yuppification or (cocked up) regeneration.

Personally, I haven't the slightest problem with the Brixton Bar and Grill. I may like it, I may not. But so long as such bars aren't replacing decent pubs, why should I care? I'd certainly prefer to have a yuppie bar employing local people than a street full of empty, boarded up abandoned shops...


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> The Hope - vodkafied


 The estate pub that became Babushka.


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> The estate pub that became Babushka.


Ya-a ya.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> i find the comment "A venture such as BBG, with its pricing policy, effectively slaps poor people across the face. This makes them angry and resentful. They feel - and become - "socially excluded."  a little hard to comprehend.


Sorry! Welcome again BTW.   



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> firslty what is the bench mark for being poor? homeless, unemployed, employed in a job that pays lower than the avergae wage??


In this case, someone who can't afford the "delicious small portions served by extremely friendly staff" at BBG.



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> do those who are not "poor" slapping others across the face when they look to enjoy the money that they work hard to earn???


If they enjoy their hard-earned cash at the poor's expense then yes.



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> when i enjoy a cocktail at the BBG am i really making others feel angry and resentful towards me??


Yes.



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> would you suggest that i spend my spare time in the albert and only eat out at macdonalds as not to socailly exlcude others???


The Albert's a lovely pub run by great people but it _is_ a bit pricey. I know the landlord is doing his best to get a good cheap ale.

Can I suggest the Beehive?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> The estate pub that became Babushka.




Yeah, sitting there doing sod all now


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> That's good, because Mike told me a few minutes ago that there were technical problems with the admin panel and he couldn't do this. Glad to see you've got it sorted out so quickly.


the admin panel is giving us lots of grief.  luckily you use the mod panel to check ips and that is working fine, thanks for asking. 




			
				IntoStella said:
			
		

> And glad to see that the Brixton bar and grill has got Sophie and Amy so fired up that they have both decided to come out in its defence at the same time.  You're right, of course. It doesn't look the least bit suspicious.


whether or not it looks suspicious, there is no proof.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Sorry. So the list goes:
> White Horse (yuppiefied)
> The George IV (yuppiefied)
> The Telegraph (yuppiefied)
> ...


And what do you think might have happened to those pubs if they hadn't adapted to attract a new clientèle?

Have you ever considered that some folk (from all backgrounds) no longer want to drink Witherthorpe's Pigeon Stout in the Old Phlegm and Trout, playing dominoes in dimly lit, smoke filled, yellow stained bars?

I don't feel economically or socially excluded from any of the 'yuppiefied' pubs above.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> And what do you think might have happened to those pubs if they hadn't adapted to attract a new clientèle?


Carried on as before. Welcoming everyone, rich or poor, from all backgrounds. That's what Brixton is good at.



			
				editor said:
			
		

> Have you ever considered that some folk (from all backgrounds) no longer want to drink Witherthorpe's Pigeon Stout in the Old Phlegm and Trout, playing dominoes in dimly lit, smoke filled, yellow stained bars?


Yes. Some people are odd.   



			
				editor said:
			
		

> I don't feel economically or socially excluded from any of the 'yuppiefied' pubs above.


Good!   

I'm very carefully not laying into BBG. I'm sure it's a great place run by very hard working people who deserve every success. I'm laying into the political framework which permits BBG to operate.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> the admin panel is giving us lots of grief.  luckily you use the mod panel to check ips and that is working fine, thanks for asking.


 Well, that was what he said. Odd.  



			
				miss minnie said:
			
		

> whether or not it looks suspicious, there is no proof.


 Guv.  .........


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

No no no no no!

Anna Key is quite right - he doesn't need to have actually visited the place to know that!  

Tsk! 

This new place is obviously an organised dastardly plot by Middle England and it means that Brixton is now changed forever. It'll never be the same. Ever!

It is an absolute disaster!

Woe woe woe woe!


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> No no no no no!
> 
> Anna Key is quite right - he doesn't need to have actually visited the place to know that!
> 
> ...


LOL at Fanta.   

(((Fanta)))


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> When they _exclude_ the poor from areas they previously occupied. That's the slapping I'm referring to.


Places are going to change. People's tastes change. The Beehive took over the mantle of the old style boozer and it's a very different conception with cheap food, no smoking areas and real ales. (And do you remember that nice pub opposite the Living Bah that suddenly went all yellow and orange and trendy a few years back -- I don't like the look of that at all.)

The problem with being poor is not having enough money and that must be dealt with directly. Objecting to the changing style of pubs and restaurants in Brixton should be left to the forces of conservatism. It's an appeal to sentiment and not to material interest.




			
				Anna Key said:
			
		

> Sometimes it's called 'colonisation' and those 'colonised' tend to object. Are you suggesting they should 'take it on the chin?'


Of course. It's all a question of spunk and moral fibre.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Personally I don't give a shit about the new bar - being from the posh end of Brixton as I am


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Carried on as before. Welcoming everyone, rich or poor, from all backgrounds. That's what Brixton is good at.


That's _way_ too romantic and unrealistic a viewpoint.

People's tastes changes and unless some boozers change, they'll end up with nothing more a few old fellas coughing in the corner, clutching their discount pints while the landlords finances crashes into the red.

Not all boozers need to change - some have formed strong bonds with the local community who will stay loyal no matter what - but your quaint notion that if struggling pubs remain exactly stay the same, people will still keep coming back forever is, frankly, ridiculous.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> but your quaint notion that if struggling pubs remain exactly stay the same, people will still keep coming back forever is, frankly, ridiculous.



The White Horse never looked to be a struggling pub


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> I'm laying into the political framework which permits BBG to operate.


Good. I could have saved myself the time and trouble I took over my last post if I'd seen this. Oh well.

But this makes the discussion tricky doesn't it. On one side we have the quality of the tapas and on the other the emancipation of the proletariat.

And I know which I'd prefer with a nice cool glass of dry sherry!!!

Actually I'm not sure. Perhaps we should do a poll.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> The White Horse never looked to be a struggling pub


Nor the Atlantic. A former barmaid is an old friend. They were doing fine. And Brady's rocked. It must have made a fortune. And I used to take my mum to the Coach & Horses. It was great.


----------



## sophie (Apr 22, 2004)

its good to know that the editor of this board has such an open and tolerant view...thank you for implying i shouldn't have to spend my valuable and limited spare time playing dominoes in dimly lit, smoke filled, yellow stained bars...

anna key alas i am at a loss as to your Communist view...have you ever considered living in Cuba per say its just that i think you will find the ideology imposed on Communist populations far more to your liking..

By the way how does one enjoy their hard-earned cash at the poor's expense 
most intriguing comment...does every penny i spend slap a poor person??? 
for example buying a cocktail in BBG would slap a poor person according to you, would me buying a can of tennants and drinking it outside the tube be considered slapping???


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> That's _way_ too romantic and unrealistic a viewpoint.


To support, celebrate and defend Brixton's kaleidoscopic diversity is neither romantic nor unrealistic (IMHO). 

While the politics of exclusion is an attack on that very diversity. It’s an attack on Brixton itself.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> anna key alas i am at a loss as to your Communist view...have you ever considered living in Cuba per say its just that i think you will find the ideology imposed on Communist populations far more to your liking..


 LOL!    You're mighty spunky for a newbie. 

I always thought Anna key was a liberal


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Nor the Atlantic. A former barmaid is an old friend. They were doing fine. And Brady's rocked. It must have made a fortune. And I used to take my mum to the Coach & Horses. It was great.


Oh come on! How many years of nostalga are we looking through here?

The Coach and Horses was *empty* for years before it finally closed. The beer was _variable_ to say the least and the place run down and the bar choice terrible. But you don't have to take my word for it: pre-gentrification Brixton voted with its feet and deserted the place.

I miss Brady's tremendously but I'm not sure if yuppification is to blame for its demise. Do you know the full story?

And for all your crocodile tears, how many times did you actually drink in the Atlantic? I went there once and was given a _very loud and clear _ message that I wasn't welcome - and that's not the kind of pub I care about.


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key solemnly declared: *I'm laying into the political framework which permits BBG to operate.*

Which is very odd, for this is _precisely_ the same political (and economic) framework that was necessary for Brixton to evolve into the vibrant, interesting place that it is!

Probably what best exemplifies this - Brixton Market - wouldn't even exist without this framework you profess to passionately loath so much.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> its good to know that the editor of this board has such an open and tolerant view...thank you for implying i shouldn't have to spend my valuable and limited spare time playing dominoes in dimly lit, smoke filled, yellow stained bars...


He's a nice bloke.   



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> anna key alas i am at a loss as to your Communist view...


Communist?



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> have you ever considered living in Cuba


Uhhh... no. 



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> per say


_per say?_



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> its just that i think you will find the ideology imposed on Communist populations far more to your liking..


Ah. Right. What on earth are you on about? Are you feeling alright?



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> By the way how does one enjoy their hard-earned cash at the poor's expense most intriguing comment...does every penny i spend slap a poor person???


No.



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> for example buying a cocktail in BBG would slap a poor person according to you,


Uhh no.



			
				sophie said:
			
		

> would me buying a can of tennants and drinking it outside the tube be considered slapping???


Uhhhhhh no.

Seriously. Are you feeling OK?


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> To support, celebrate and defend Brixton's kaleidoscopic diversity is neither romantic nor unrealistic


Please don't twist the context of my words. You suggested that pubs would do just fine if they stayed exactly the same and I believe that to be an unrealistic and romantic view.

I don't see how that statement of opinion has any connection with notions of defending  'Brixton's kaleidoscopic diversity'.

The Coach and Horses shut because no one went there. 

What's the point of 'defending' a local pub that has managed to send the local community fleeing?


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I went there once and was given a _very loud and clear _ message that I wasn't welcome - and that's not the kind of pub I care about.


 And many of the people who once drank in all the many pubs we have listed on this thread have been given a very loud and clear message that they are no longer welcome in the places that were once their locals -- places that were at the centre of communities.  

Now you are included, they are excluded.  This is cool for you but a  major bummer for them. 

They have been cleansed. And they can't even sit in tate gardens on a warm day with a tinnie


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> LOL!    You're mighty spunky for a newbie.


I think Sophie rocks. And should be enticed down the Beehive ASAP.


----------



## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key:

You seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here, that Sophie, when supping cocktails (though good on her, I say) should feel guilty, particularly if she does so in Brixton.

So are we saying that to simply make a consumer choice based on one's income and taste - which not all of us can make because of low incomes -  is something which should make us feel guilty?

It seems to be that any unfettered unregulated economic activity in Brixton, by businesses or consumers, attracts your condemnation.

You know I agree with you about housing issues, but really, drinking cocktails or beer in Brixton shouldn't really be something that makes any of us feel guilty. Surely not _everything_ we do can be part of the edifice of oppressive gentrification.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Please don't twist the context of my words. You suggested that pubs would do just fine if they stayed exactly the same and I believe that to be an unrealistic and romantic view.
> 
> I don't see how that statement of opinion has any connection with notions of defending  'Brixton's kaleidoscopic diversity'.
> 
> ...


My understanding of the Coach & Horses is all was fine until ****** got ill.

The reason the Atlantic turned into Dogstar was because some people, encouraged by a large Brixton Challenge grant and political support within the Council, opened a yuppie bar. They then pulled vast amounts of money out of Brixton, seriously pissed off the neighbours and then went spectacularly bust.

It would have been very much better for the Atlantic to have remained. There was nothing wrong with it. 

I'm sorry you found it unfriendly. You certainly would not have done had my barmaid friend been on duty when you visited. She would have loved you and have sneaked you free drinks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> its good to know that the editor of this board has such an open and tolerant view...thank you for implying i shouldn't have to spend my valuable and limited spare time playing dominoes in dimly lit, smoke filled, yellow stained bars...


where are such bars?


> _By the way how does one enjoy their hard-earned cash at the poor's expense
> most intriguing comment...does every penny i spend slap a poor person???
> for example buying a cocktail in BBG would slap a poor person according to you, would me buying a can of tennants and drinking it outside the tube be considered slapping???_


what, tennants pilsner? or extra? or super?

the pilsner's piss, extra's ok (but i always found it a bit metally). and tennant's super's probably perfect for the sort of person who'd buy a cocktail in bbg or anywhere else. what sort of cocktail would you get? long island ice tea? more alcohol in _that_ than any other common cocktail!


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> And many of the people who once drank in all the many pubs we have listed on this thread have been given a very loud and clear message that they are no longer welcome in the places that were once their locals -- places that were at the centre of communities.


So who are all these people you seem to be speaking for?

Why do you think those pubs bothered to spend so much money in refurbishments if they were so rammed full of loyal drinkers?

There wasn't a 'community' drinking in the customer-untroubled Coach and Horses - that's why it closed. And I'm sure the handful of people who did risk drinking their beer have simply decamped to one of the many other welcoming local pubs in Brixton or taken advantage of the (corporate giant-owned) Beehive's much cheaper prices.

Hardly the end of the world then. 

Pubs change all the time, but so long as there's always cheap/friendly/community boozers available, what's the problem? Or do you think pubs should never, _ever_ change for the lifetime of its shrinking band of regulars?


----------



## zubaier (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Plan B -- formerly the Wimpy!  Seriously, apart from the Beehive, the aroma of which does not mix well with a fresh hangover, where else can you get a dirt  cheap fry-up on a Sunday morning? Brixton is an egg-and-chip desert!



does anyone know the source of the stench in the beehive?  the only other place ive ever smelt that particular smell is while visiting my sick gran in hospital when i was a kid.. is it something old people produce?  its definitely one way to suppress your appetite mind you...


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> where are such bars?
> [/i]what, tennants pilsner? or extra? or super?
> 
> the pilsner's piss, extra's ok (but i always found it a bit metally). and tennant's super's probably perfect for the sort of person who'd buy a cocktail in bbg or anywhere else. what sort of cocktail would you get? long island ice tea? more alcohol in _that_ than any other common cocktail!



As an urbanite, may I just say that that post of your's was definitely of a superoir quality Pickman's model!?

Please can we have another one?


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> It would have been very much better for the Atlantic to have remained. There was nothing wrong with it.


How often did you drink in this 'friendly' pub, then? And would you have gone there if you didn't know the barmaid?

All my old school Brixton mates found it every bit as unwelcoming as me (when I came to visit they never, ever wanted to drink there), and you happening to know the barmaid doesn't alter the fact that - by the end - it had become an unpleasant pub and was *definitely* not welcoming to all members of the community.

That doesn't excuse the 'Merrit Years' of course, but I'd rather have the mixed-crowd welcoming local boozer (in the week!) that's there now than the unwelcoming old Atlantic, thanks very much.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

zubaier said:
			
		

> does anyone know the source of the stench in the beehive?  the only other place ive ever smelt that particular smell is while visiting my sick gran in hospital when i was a kid.


I suspect it's death, zubaier.   

It smelled a bit better for about a week after they steam cleaned the carpets (jesus that must've stunk) but the old familiar fug is back with a vengeance.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> Anna Key:
> You seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here, that Sophie, when supping cocktails (though good on her, I say) should feel guilty, particularly if she does so in Brixton.


Stick. End. Wrong. Of.   

I want Sophie to feel happy _all of the time._ Guilt's a horrible emotion I wouldn't wish on anyone.



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> So are we saying that to simply make a consumer choice based on one's income and taste - which not all of us can make because of low incomes -  is something which should make us feel guilty?


No



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> It seems to be that any unfettered unregulated economic activity in Brixton, by businesses or consumers, attracts your condemnation.


No. I like Bookmongers. And the Beehive. And the Albert. And the Phoenix cafe. The list goes on and on. I'm against businesses which _exlude_ people. Brixton, for me, is all about _inclusion._



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> You know I agree with you about housing issues, but really, drinking cocktails or beer in Brixton shouldn't really be something that makes any of us feel guilty.


I agree.



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> Surely not _everything_ we do can be part of the edifice of oppressive gentrification.


I agree. Just so there's no further misunderstanding, or Sophie will pack me off to Havana:




			
				Anna Key said:
			
		

> So BBG can be described as "an engine of social exclusion."
> 
> A venue which previously sold fairly cheap food - Pangea - has been replaced by a venue selling fairly expensive food.
> 
> ...


Clear enough?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> How often did you drink in this 'friendly' pub, then? And would you have gone there if you didn't know the barmaid?
> 
> All my old school Brixton mates found it every bit as unwelcoming as me (when I came to visit they never, ever wanted to drink there), and you happening to know the barmaid doesn't alter the fact that - by the end - it had become an unpleasant pub and was *definitely* not welcoming to all members of the community.
> 
> That doesn't excuse the 'Merrit Years' of course, but I'd rather have the mixed-crowd welcoming local boozer (in the week!) that's there now than the unwelcoming old Atlantic, thanks very much.


Well they made a mistake then. They should have welcomed you and your friends. No I didn't drink there that often but would have gone there without knowing the lovely ****: my workmates drank there. I wish I'd gone more. Friends who were regulars before being booted for the yuppies tell ahem _interesting_ stories about what went on.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> hatboy...if it doesn't sound very interesting to you then please feel free not to go there.
> 
> yes there is an atmosphere maybe not to your specific liking but again you don't have to go.
> 
> ...



Yes it does.  "Stylish environment" - yeah right. Piss off.

We all know your sort of people own Brixton now. Don't be surprised when (and this isn't me, just observing), but don't be surprised when there's a backlash and windows start smashing.

You'll see.


----------



## sophie (Apr 22, 2004)

anna key, it is of great comfort to me that you are concerned for my happiness...and it would make me even happier to pawn a set of my pearls to get you that ticket to Havanna...


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Don't be surprised when (and this isn't me, just observing), but don't be surprised when there's a backlash and windows start smashing.
> 
> You'll see.


This worries me too. If you drive poor people from their neighbourhood they'll tend to get pissed off.

And before Sophie books my flight to Havana, no I do not approve of poor people - or anyone - performing acts of political violence.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Maybe you should start going there then hatboy to make the place more interesting and vibrant and less bland and mild?



Why the fuck should I?  I don't bother with these shitty places. I know where I'll go and they don't go there. It's off the "Time Out" map.  

These places like "Brixton Bar and Grill" are irelevent to Brixton. So is this forum as it populates with young prof in search of "vibrant, edgy Brixton".



You'll all see how "vibrant and edgy" it will become if this sort of social division continues.


You will.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> anna key, it is of great comfort to me that you are concerned for my happiness...and it would make me even happier to pawn a set of my pearls to get you that ticket to Havanna...


I'll get you down the Beehive yet.


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 22, 2004)

*Plus ca change...*

When Pangaea first opened, I took a friend for a pizza.   Friend has a somewhat dishevelled appearance (merely academic squalor rather than alarming BO).  I did not think we were made welcome by comparison with a group of fashionably dressed (carharrt-clad IIRC?) young people who came in a few minutes later. 

I never returned.

The pizzas were indifferent.   Said friend lives in Clapham  , and thought Pangeaea was overpriced !!!


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> You'll all see how "vibrant and edgy" it will become if this sort of social division continues.
> 
> 
> You will.


You see Sophie. I'm just trying to look after your interests.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Why do you think those pubs bothered to spend so much money in refurbishments if they were so rammed full of loyal drinkers?


 They didn't. They were bought out by entrepreneurial ventures who could raise the sheer, hard capital to rip the guts out of them and turn them into sanitised style bars. 





> There wasn't a 'community' drinking in the customer-untroubled Coach and Horses - that's why it closed.


 And what about the White Horse? The Telegraph? The Queen? The George IV? The Hope? 

I'm sure you can see that just because you didn't especially like a pub, it doesn't mean it should be taken over, made into a trendy style bar and all the locals booted out.  





> And I'm sure the handful of people who did risk drinking their beer


 ???





> have simply decamped to one of the many other welcoming local pubs in Brixton


 such as...?





> or taken advantage of the (corporate giant-owned) Beehive's much cheaper prices.


 Proof of the pudding, you see, that we're not gnashing communists, otherwise how could we possibly pop our £1.65 a pint into the Mulleted One's bulging pockets? 





> Hardly the end of the world then.


 But for many it is because, as Minnie the Minx has said elsewhere, these pubs were people's locals. Why should an old bloke who lives up Brixton Hill have to go all the way down to the Beehive for a pint just because yuppies have kicked him out of his local? Demographically there are more and more ageing people. What is happening locally is inverse to that trend. So nobody over 50 should be allowed a pub to go to? 





> Pubs change all the time, but so long as there's always cheap/friendly/community boozers available, what's the problem?


The problem is that they are dwindling all the time. 





> Or do you think pubs should never, _ever_ change for the lifetime of its shrinking band of regulars?


No, I don't think that. I think they are an important social hub in communities and that if you kick the locals out you damage the fabric of those communities. Then people feel powerless, isolated, disenfranchised and resentful.

Still. Glad you've made room in your hectic schedule to take part in this discussion.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> I think Hendo is right, we should be welcoming new businesses, and Sophie has a point too. Surely people should be able to drink/eat/hang out wherever they what, whether that is the guys who hang out at the top of CHL or the people who want to go the a new bar?
> Anyway, its hard enough to get a new business off the ground. Why does every one have to snipe about it? We should be more encouraging.



You don't get it do you. The people coming now are shaping Brixton in their image. Not adapting, considering, fitting-in.

You might love it in there, but others feel alienated.

You can't "Upper St" everything you bunch of cunts.


And Hendo - new businesses yes. bland, upmarket, excluding no.


PS Bet it isn't as "vibrant and edgy" as Taco Joes" LOL.

What a pile of shite this whole situation is.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I move that we go out and shoot all hacks who cannot use the word Brixton without inserting the word vibrant in the same sentence.
> 
> Likewise 'edgy'.



There was a recent advert for weekend breaks in Glasgow, which (among other things) boasted "achingly hip hotels". Now that's DEFINITELY a shooting offence.


----------



## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

Hatboy - why do your responses have to be so agressive?? Most people manage to post their views in a calm manner, with rational arguement. No wonder you get peoples backs up!


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> That's becuase we're friends



Lots of character and personality there then.  See what I mean? Bland bars and interchangeable personalities.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 22, 2004)

*haven't read whole thread yet, but........*




			
				sophie said:
			
		

> bland...no not to me...but then i am twentysomething professional who doesn't mind paying for £6 cocktails in a stylish enviornmnet...does that make me bland?!!?



Uh, yes.......... very.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> Most people manage to post their views in a calm manner, with rational arguement.


But Comrade Sophie became over-excited, called me a Commie and wanted to have me deported to Cuba! But I forgave her.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> I do not approve of poor people - or anyone - performing acts of political violence.


 I'm not entirely sure I approve of people attempting to deport AK for his political views. It messes with the tonality.

Was it camp xray Sophie had in mind? Does she have friends in high places who might come for Anna at dawn? 

He does look nice in orange but those boiler suits are terribly unsexy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> bland...no not to me...but then i am twentysomething professional who doesn't mind paying for £6 cocktails in a stylish environment...does that make me bland?!!?


makes you daft!

satan, for the amount you spend on cocktails in a week or two, you could get all the ingredients - and a decent shaker and crushed ice thing - and have them at home with friends _and_ save money! when i was flush and working, i still found it distasteful to pay over the odds for a pint - felt like i was being played for a mug. if you want to thrust yr money into the hands of people laughing at you behind yr back, carry on.

but i'm disappointed in the quality of young twentysomething professionals these days anyway.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

Mike said:

"Personally, I haven't the slightest problem with the Brixton Bar and Grill. I may like it, I may not. But so long as such bars aren't replacing decent pubs, why should I care? I'd certainly prefer to have a yuppie bar employing local people than a street full of empty, boarded up abandoned shops..."

Yeah, I know everyone's very grateful for their glass-collecting jobs.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> Hatboy - why do your responses have to be so agressive?? Most people manage to post their views in a calm manner, with rational arguement. No wonder you get peoples backs up!



Amy - did you go to a grammar school as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

will it be local people they're employing?

i doubt it very much.

people go into those yuppie bars to be away from the local scruffs, in't it.


----------



## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> You don't get it do you. ....... you bunch of cunts.


Thanks Hatboy - ever the rational arguement.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 22, 2004)

Sophie, are you "the impatient Sophie" who features in the really crap new McDonalds ad?


----------



## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

But AK:

Surely to attack the political and economic system that allows BBG is - in effect - an attack on BBG. The system has allowed the bar, so taking away the system would take away the bar.

To explore further, should a regulated structure be in place in Brixton that _actively prevents_ BBG and like places? 

Presumably it would need to be a council planning and licensing policy way stricter than the one we have at the mo. All the bars we've discussed wouldn't have been allowed, I guess, and there'd be no A66. Would the Lounge have passed muster? 

I reckon, implemented, that policy would lose support fairly quickly.

We don't live in a perfect world, it's true, but at least while bemoaning the fact that we don't, we can choose our cocktails.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> when i was flush and working, i still found it distasteful to pay over the odds for a pint - felt like i was being played for a mug. if you want to thrust yr money into the hands of people laughing at you behind yr back, carry on.


 I feel the same. Even if I had cash to burn I'd hate the feeling of being taken for a patsy by greedy people.


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> You don't get it do you. The people coming now are shaping Brixton in their image. Not adapting, considering, fitting-in.
> 
> You might love it in there, but others feel alienated.
> 
> ...


right, but - being practical - once you have market forces, how do you _stop_ this process? It may be that the Amys - and, I guess, the Hendos - are more representative of the Brixton of the future than, well, you. And the community that doesn't continually mutate into _something_...tends to die on its' arse


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> I find you very offensive.
> That is always what your arguments seem to boil down to - name calling.
> You are completely out of order. It's attitudes like this have have prevented me from ever posting.


 Until now. Out of interest, what prompted you to take the leap now after all this time?


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

Mike said:

"And for all your crocodile tears, how many times did you actually drink in the Atlantic? I went there once and was given a very loud and clear message that I wasn't welcome - and that's not the kind of pub I care about."

I went to the Atlantic and was given a loud and clear message that I WAS welcome.

So why's that then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I feel the same. Even if I had cash to burn I'd hate the feeling of being taken for a patsy by greedy people.


and everyone knows what happens to the patsy!


----------



## aurora green (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't feel economically or socially excluded from any of the 'yuppiefied' pubs above.



With every respect, I'm sure you dont, having been invited to Buck house and all.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> right, but - being practical - once you have market forces, how do you _stop_ this process? It may be that the Amys - and, I guess, the Hendos - are more representative of the Brixton of the future than, well, you. And the community that doesn't continually mutate into _something_...tends to die on its' arse


 That mutation could take the form of regeneration, which would be of benefit to the whole community, not just the wealthy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> once you have market forces, how do you _stop_ this process?


sophie's already said s/he's quite happy to pay £6 for an overpriced cocktail. next time i'm past the bbg i'm going to pop in and chat to the manager. they could be making even more money off people like that: £8, £10 a cocktail? happy hour from 3-5, get real people in, charge the spendthrift professionals more in the evening.

a few years down the line, it'll likely be those same (hopefully ex-)professionals hawking travelcards and phlegm by the tube.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> Hatboy - why do your responses have to be so agressive?? Most people manage to post their views in a calm manner, with rational arguement. No wonder you get peoples backs up!



Yet again, harsh words offend the polite classes more than harsh realities - which they don't care about.  The nature of the internet, the nature of u75.

Depressing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

edited to avoid the flaming i so richly deserve.


----------



## Amy (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Until now. Out of interest, what prompted you to take the leap now after all this time?


Dunno really? I have been reading the brixton board for ages. I've lived here for about 6 years and find the boards really useful for whats going on around brixton. I almost took a leap into the gentrification arguement from a month ago, but decicded it was getting too hairy. To be honest, it's differcult because my views will piss off board heavyweights like Hatboy and I can't be doing with the abuse (maybe I am a wuss), but I am glad I took the plunge!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Mike said:
> 
> "Personally, I haven't the slightest problem with the Brixton Bar and Grill. I may like it, I may not. But so long as such bars aren't replacing decent pubs, why should I care? I'd certainly prefer to have a yuppie bar employing local people than a street full of empty, boarded up abandoned shops..."
> 
> Yeah, I know everyone's very grateful for their glass-collecting jobs.




Difference is, they're probably NOT employing locals unless they're their friends.

When White Horse was taken over, lost track of the bar staff there but they were all friends of the new managers or were trendy little students/graduates    Not a born or long-term local among them I doubt


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 22, 2004)

What this boils down to a re-run of the Brixton blanding out thread. IMO it is self evident that the arrival of people in Brixton who describe themselves as "twentysomething professionals" with neither embarrassment nor irony is a very clear indicator that the area is indeed blanding out.

BTW one of the great old school places not mentioned before was the squatted Jan Rebane centre, which really rocked. No cocktail menu, though.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

It's off to Guantanamo bay for you, young man. 

Edit: wise move.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

i don't think the arrival of yuppie scum blands out an area. it makes it shit and vile and foul and reminiscent of the nether regions of dante's inferno: but not bland. just dull and extremely depressing.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> It's off to Guantanamo bay for you, young man.
> 
> Edit: wise move.



Or the Ministry of Sound. With its high security fence and beefy humourless security it looks much the same as camp x-ray. Plus I can get there on me travelcard.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> To be honest, it's differcult because my views will piss off board heavyweights like Hatboy and I can't be doing with the abuse (maybe I am a wuss), but I am glad I took the plunge!


 But imagine how_ boring_ it would be if everyone agreed. 

Before long you'd be _at each other's throats_ arguing over whether Larry's Slippery Nipple was better than his Sloe Comfortable Screw.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> But AK:
> 
> Surely to attack the political and economic system that allows BBG is - in effect - an attack on BBG. The system has allowed the bar, so taking away the system would take away the bar.


Think of it as turning off a patient's oxygen supply. Why should they be permitted, by the local state which we elect, to breath Brixton air?



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> To explore further, should a regulated structure be in place in Brixton that _actively prevents_ BBG and like places?


Yes. Hatboy scored a huge victory during the UDP discussions when he got a policy accepted which discouraged the big chain stores from colonising Brixton. 

The same can done with places which exclude the poor because of their pricing policy. They shouldn't, in my view, be permitted in Brixton. They're anti-diversity and anti-Brixton. They’re against the very thing Brixton stands for: including not excluding.



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> Presumably it would need to be a council planning and licensing policy way stricter than the one we have at the mo.


Yes.



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> All the bars we've discussed wouldn't have been allowed, I guess, and there'd be no A66. Would the Lounge have passed muster?


I recently met the lounge guy. He's such a charmer he'd get a donkey through planning committee.



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> I reckon, implemented, that policy would lose support fairly quickly.


I think it would be wildly popular, if sold in the right way. 

It would be protecting and celebrating the very thing that is unique about Brixton. It would be saying "Fuck you" to those who don't care about damaging Brixton to make a fast buck. And it's already being implemented to an extent (Brix Cycles etc).



			
				hendo said:
			
		

> We don't live in a perfect world, it's true, but at least while bemoaning the fact that we don't, we can choose our cocktails.


Or our Summer Lightning.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i don't think the arrival of yuppie scum blands out an area. it makes it shit and vile and foul and reminiscent of the nether regions of dante's inferno


 Living Bah, yesterday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Difference is, they're probably NOT employing locals unless they're their friends.


like i said, yuppie scum don't want to see the local oiks when they're out on the piss.

there are few things more sickening, ime, than seeing a bunch of pissed up fuckspud yuppie wankers stumbling out of their darling bar stewed as newts and unable to restrain their disdain for the area in which they live. it's bad enough seeing drunken city suits in the city of an evening. much worse when they're pissed up and riled nr where they live. and then when they're sober they think they're god's gift, be it to stokey or brixton.

i wouldn't want to serve the fuckers!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> there are few things more sickening, ime, than seeing a bunch of pissed up fuckspud yuppie wankers stumbling out of their darling bar stewed as newts and unable to restrain their disdain for the area in which they live.




Shouldn't that be _dahling bah?_


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Why the fuck should I?  I don't bother with these shitty places. I know where I'll go and they don't go there. It's off the "Time Out" map.
> 
> These places like "Brixton Bar and Grill" are irelevent to Brixton. So is this forum as it populates with young prof in search of "vibrant, edgy Brixton".
> 
> ...



Is it not wise to go and see for oneself before passing judgment on a place? 

How can you define something you are ignorant of?

What do I think of Brixton Bar Grill? I don't know Hatboy - because I have never been there.

And neither have you! 

Have you?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Is it not wise to go and see for oneself before passing judgment on a place?
> 
> How can you define something you are ignorant of?
> 
> ...


You've been told their prices. That's enough isn't it?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Is it not wise to go and see for oneself before passing judgment on a place?
> 
> How can you define something you are ignorant of?
> 
> ...




Maybe he can't afford to at those prices?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Shouldn't that be _dahling bah?_




bah!  . .


----------



## aurora green (Apr 22, 2004)

I've never been, but the trouble is, I'm not likely to either, with their prices.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 22, 2004)

I think there will be room in Brixton for this bar , same as there is room for Tounge and Groove, The Beehive, Lounge, The Phoneix, SW9, The Effra and The Hobgoblin.

All very different but all give different types of entertainment and ime all very welcoming. I go to all of them. If I find the Brixton Bar has the same type of vibe as the bars above I'll go there too (on payday).


----------



## tarannau (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Difference is, they're probably NOT employing locals unless they're their friends.
> 
> When White Horse was taken over, lost track of the bar staff there but they were all friends of the new managers or were trendy little students/graduates    Not a born or long-term local among them I doubt




To be fair Minnie I remember the old White Horse a lot less fondly than you do. I lived down Fairmount Road in the dying days of the old management and it always seemed half empty and a little cold when I went in there. Not unpleasant, it just felt on its way out and it came as no surprise to hear that it was closing. It didn't feel as though there were enough people there to support it.

I don't believe there was a delibrate purge of the old drinking crowd in the White Horse. More that the old regulars found that they didn't like the feel of the new place and moved elsewhere. Just as i used to when the old management ran it.

To be fair to these new drinking and dining joints, I don't think you can blame the downfall of many of Brixton's traditional pubs on them. Competition from cheap corporate drinking barns - Wetherspoons and Goose amongst them - drained some of those old places of customers far more than the opening of the latest style bars...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

the first one you see when you google brixton bar grill said:
			
		

> Despite the proliferation of new and exciting venues, Brixton has always been characterised by a certain seductive scuzziness, from the grubby chic of the Dogstar to the underground intimacy of the Bug Bar.
> 
> But the arrival of the Brixton Bar and Grill is set to take the South London scene up several notches.
> 
> ...




i'm feeling sick already.


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> You've been told their prices. That's enough isn't it?



You believe everything you read on the internet?

And it doesn't sound that more expensive than the Albert - which I know you like to spend a Friday evening in, right?


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Maybe he can't afford to at those prices?



Well I am generally broke at this time of the month!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> I think there will be room in Brixton for this bar , same as there is room for Tounge and Groove, The Beehive, Lounge, The Phoneix, SW9, The Effra and The Hobgoblin.


i'm certain there will be room: if somewhere like upper street can support nine or ten pubs i'm sure brixton has the capacity.

but would you want to live somewhere like n1 instead of se24?


----------



## dum dum (Apr 22, 2004)

I agree Mr Retro.Not being let in bugged the hell out of me and it looks like it may be alittle pricey for my tastes but i'll go back and give it another try,it might turn out to be something good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> And it doesn't sound that more expensive than the Albert - which I know you like to spend a Friday evening in, right?


i expect, though, that there's much you've left out.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

tarannau said:
			
		

> To be fair Minnie I remember the old White Horse a lot less fondly than you do. I lived down Fairmount Road in the dying days of the old management and it always seemed half empty and a little cold when I went in there. Not unpleasant, it just felt on its way out and it came as no surprise to hear that it was closing. It didn't feel as though there were enough people there to support it.
> 
> I don't believe there was a delibrate purge of the old drinking crowd in the White Horse. More that the old regulars found that they didn't like the feel of the new place and moved elsewhere. Just as i used to when the old management ran it.



Unfortunately it had its fair share of crap managers which did not help resulting in it going even further downhill.

I didn't say there was a deliberate purge of the old drinking crowd.  It was more a case of them taking all the bar stools away from the bar which is where the regulars drank and whacking up the prices which made it too expensive for the pensioners   

I would say a lot more but unfortunately I'd give myself away


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

nr "my" estate, there used to be a pub which went downhill after the landlord started taking money from the till to gamble with - and losing it. after a while he was reduced to asking the regulars (of whom there were a dwindling number) for money to pay for the deliveries. unsurprisingly he had to sell it. 

that's bad management.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

OK, I'm opening a book on how long this thread will get.

500, anyone? 

600? More?


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> I'd give myself away


 Don't do that! Make sure you get a good price.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

dum dum said:
			
		

> it might turn out to be something good.


then again, it might not. why not go up to bar lorca in stokey for a vision of brixton's future?

while yr there, you can think about the samuel beckett, the pub there before, which tho' a dive had at least the saving grace of being a locals' and punx pub.

bar lorca - the famed poet must be spinning in his grave.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> Don't do that! Make sure you get a good price.




That's bloody difficult on Brixton Hill


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> OK, I'm opening a book on how long this thread will get.
> 
> 500, anyone?
> 
> 600? More?


 spread betting!


----------



## Ms T (Apr 22, 2004)

The guy from Neon told me that the Brixton Bar and Grill is run by the same people who ran Pangaea -- they just decided there was more money in cocktails than pizzas.  I never found Pangaea particularly cheap, tbh, and it was pretty shambolic in there towards the end. 

BBG doesn't look like my kind of place -- a bit too self-consciously "cool" but I might give it a try if the food is as good as some people say.

Welcome Sophie and Amy. If you're good AK and Intostella might let you join their clique....


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i'm certain there will be room: if somewhere like upper street can support nine or ten pubs i'm sure brixton has the capacity.
> 
> but would you want to live somewhere like n1 instead of se24?



No wouldn't live there if I won a flat there.

I mean room for it in the sense it can potentially fit in with the places I've mentioned, and adopt the type of inclusivness these places do. 

It may not, it may be another Living but until it's nailed it's colours to the mast I'm hoping it won't be.

I don't think you can dismiss it on prices alone. The price of a pint of Stella in the Effra is £2.60 (or even £2.70?). SW9 is very expensive as is Tongue and Groove but they all fit in very well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

Ms T said:
			
		

> more money in cocktails than pizzas.


certainly is! think how many measures there are in a £10 bottle of reasonable spirits! don't need staff to be too highly trained - no one's likely to ask for a particularly obscure cocktail, specially if they're the alcoholically unlettered yuppie type who couldn't even serve vodka properly.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> then again, it might not. why not go up to bar lorca in stokey for a vision of brixton's future?
> while yr there, you can think about the samuel beckett, the pub there before, which tho' a dive had at least the saving grace of being a locals' and punx pub.


 You've touched a nerve there. I used to go to the Samuel Beckett all the time. All the bands I had mates in used to play there. It was a fantastic live venue. Then they turned it into an indentikit style Bah.  I was crushed. I was incandescent. And yes, I did try the place afterwards. And it was absolutely shit.

And they did EXACTLY THE SAME THING to the red Lion in Brixton road. Once a local boozer and gloriously scuzzy venue for up-and-coming -- and down-and-going -- bands, many of them local. Became another Bar Lorca.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> I don't think you can dismiss it on prices alone. The price of a pint of Stella in the Effra is £2.60 (or even £2.70?). SW9 is very expensive as is Tongue and Groove but they all fit in very well.


i think those prices are fairly standard. outside wethershags you'd be hard pushed to find a pint of stella for under £2.50.

the only good thing about yuppie bars is that the scum tend to drink there, and not in locals' pubs.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i think those prices are fairly standard. outside wethershags you'd be hard pushed to find a pint of stella for under £2.50.




My local does a pint for under £2.50


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

lucky you!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> lucky you!




Would be if I drank it.  I only drink it when my drink of choice has run out


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

if you'd said it cost £4.50, you'd have had yuppies asking where the pub was.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> if you'd said it cost £4.50, you'd have had yuppies asking where the pub was.




Yeah, quite probably, but then they'd probably sit there nursing the same pint all night in their "stylish surroundings"


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> The George IV (yuppiefied)



Have you ever seen the George IV in full swing? I'd hardly call all those sweat drenched  ket monkeys yuppies!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen the George IV in full swing? I'd hardly call all those sweat drenched  ket monkeys yuppies!




Wasn't me that said that     It's been raveified  

That doesn't deserve to even be called a pub, it's hardly ever open


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

tarannau said:
			
		

> To be fair to these new drinking and dining joints, I don't think you can blame the downfall of many of Brixton's traditional pubs on them. Competition from cheap corporate drinking barns - Wetherspoons and Goose amongst them - drained some of those old places of customers far more than the opening of the latest style bars...


Indeed.

Anyone who wants to 'defend' Brixton's diversity, community, individuality etc etc should perhaps consider drinking in local, old-school pubs rather than quaffing in lager-shifting outlets owned by enormous uber-corporate chains.

I haven't a problem with the Brixton Bar and Grill because it simply replaced a place I rarely went to which replaced another place I rarely went to. Why should that bother me? I can't say that the look of the place has particularly ignited my enthusiasm, but I haven't been there yet, so I'll reserve judgement until then.

Maybe I'll like it. Maybe it'll be like the (early days) of the T&G which despite its wallet-shrinking prices still managed to feel welcoming and inclusive.

Either way, I'd rather have the Brixton Bar and Grill than an empty boarded up shop, a fucking Starbucks or an identikit Wetherspoons.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Anyone who wants to 'defend' Brixton's diversity, community, individuality etc etc should perhaps consider drinking in local, old-school pubs


 Such as....?


----------



## fanta (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Such as....?



The Angel perhaps?


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Such as....?


I thought you'd know a few by now, but I'd classify the Effra, Angel and Albert as local, old-school pubs, populated by long standing regulars and not owned by enormo-uber-corporate drinking chains.


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 22, 2004)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen the George IV in full swing? I'd hardly call all those sweat drenched  ket monkeys yuppies!


Yuppies are the bogeyman. All change is yuppification. All ills are due to yuppies. Yuppies cause resentment. Yuppies are outsiders. Yuppies are taking our pubs. Yuppies windows will get broken.

Brixton as Royston Vasey.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 22, 2004)

Amy said:
			
		

> bland...no not to me...but then i am twentysomething professional who doesn't mind paying for £6 cocktails in a stylish enviornmnet...does that make me bland?!!?


Welcome Amy   This doesn't necessarily make you bland but it makes you well-off.... which many people in Brixton aren't. The argument is that shops, services etc in Brixton are catering more and more for the well-off people and less for poorer people, therefore restricting choice for the less well-off. Some people are lucky enough to be able to travel all over London and go to whatever bar they want, but if you're, say, an old geezer living in Brixton all your life and all you want is a nice cheap pint of best in a quiet boozer, then your choice is now serverly restricted due to the "development" that's happened here in the past howevermany years.




			
				Anna Key said:
			
		

> A venue which previously sold fairly cheap food - Pangea - has been replaced by a venue selling fairly expensive food. This may not be BBG's fault. I don't know how much rent they pay and perhaps they need to charge a lot of money


Another effect of "development" is spiralling rent prices - which favours businesses which cater to the well-off, and also large chains - the only people who can afford the rents. Did anyone see that programme last night about "real world burgers", a healthy burger bar starting up in Clapham? They were doing really well but still missing their target of _£2k a day just to break even._ How anyone can survive in a business environment like that beats me. Unless they charge £6 for a cocktail which costs about 80p to make. There has to be some kind of regulation of rent prices.




			
				Minnie_the_Minx re: the old Hope pub said:
			
		

> Yeah, sitting there doing sod all now


Actually, it's currently open and called "Mango Landing" although it doesn't have a sign up outside.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Actually, it's currently open and called "Mango Landing" although it doesn't have a sign up outside.




Really?  Is it full of yuppies or what?


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 22, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> Brixton as Royston Vasey.



Yeah, very sad, eh?.
Still at least the police now know were to look for the brick throwers.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I thought you'd know a few by now, but I'd classify the Effra, Angel and Albert as local, old-school pubs, populated by long standing regulars and not owned by enormo-uber-corporate drinking chains.


 Are you suggesting that I don't drink in the Albert?    

The fact that I much prefer it to the Beehive has got me marked down by the beehive lot as a bit of a stuck up yuppie.   It's all relative. Whatever you think of Tim Mullet, they _cannot afford _to drink in the Albert.  I _cannot afford _to drink (and certainly not to eat) in the BBG. 

So you don't go to the Wetherspoon because its corporate nature offends your political principles? Not because it's got smelly, mad, poor people in it? 

I don't feel at all comfortable in the  Effra when it's full of trendies in difficult glasses listening to cool jazz.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Anyone who wants to 'defend' Brixton's diversity, community, individuality etc etc should perhaps consider drinking in local, old-school pubs rather than quaffing in lager-shifting outlets owned by enormous uber-corporate chains.


You're right. The Mulleted One - who apparently turned up in the Beehive last week - is a bit of an embarrassment. 

But I find if you concentrate on filling and refilling your glass with some of the finest beer in Brixton - much of it from small independent breweries - at £1.65 a pint then feelings of antagonism towards Mr Martin evaporate in a cloud of sweet smelling hops.

What's needed in central Brixton is a good independent pub which brews its own beer.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> full of trendies in difficult glasses listening to cool jazz.




Difficult glasses? 

WTF are they?  Not those horrible thick rimmed glasses that certain types of yuppies wear?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> So you don't go to the Wetherspoon because its corporate nature offends your political principles? Not because it's got smelly, mad, poor people in it?


There are other advantages to the Beehive too. It's tremendously mixed. It's well managed. No damn pop music. Good chess. And I like the booths for some reason: you get in one with your friends and the world can go hang.

I think it's a bit sad. A corporate giant gives Brixton one of its best pubs. While the 'thrusting entrepreneurs' offer only the BBG, and 'chum' 'chum' yuppie hellholes on Coldharbour Lane.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Difficult glasses?
> 
> WTF are they?  Not those horrible thick rimmed glasses that certain types of yuppies wear?


 Them's the ones


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Is that Sophie or Amy?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Bugger. Wrong "tone." Sorry!


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> There are other advantages to the Beehive too. It's tremendously mixed. It's well managed. No damn pop music. Good chess. And I like the booths for some reason: you get in one with your friends and the world can go hang.






			
				IntoStella said:
			
		

> it's got smelly, mad, poor people in it


Sorry, I forgot to add: and that's just me and Anna Key.


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 22, 2004)

Difficult glasses are so 2002, dahling...


----------



## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Difficult glasses?
> 
> WTF are they?  Not those horrible thick rimmed glasses that certain types of yuppies wear?



we don't wear glasses these days, it's laser treatment, darling.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> we don't wear glasses these days, it's laser treatment, darling.


 The old Skool jazzsters of the Effra still do. 

Anyway, how can you look intelligent if you haven't got difficult glasses on?


----------



## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

Squint a bit.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> So you don't go to the Wetherspoon because its corporate nature offends your political principles? Not because it's got smelly, mad, poor people in it?


I don't drink in the Beehive because I don't like Wetherspoons pubs. Moreover, it's further to walk and I prefer the music and vibe of the Albert. 

So please don't try and get clever with me by introducing snide, manufactured suggestions that I avoid the place for quite different reasons - because I won't fucking have it, alright?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Them's the ones




WTF were they all about then.  They're fucking horrible.  Remind me of Nana Miskouri (or however you spell it) or what's her name from "On the Buses".

Are these the same twats that wear horrible sideboards (the men obviously!)?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> Difficult glasses are so 2002, dahling...




Well I remember going in Bar/Bah Humbug something like 6-8 years ago and EVERY single waiter/waitress/waitperson   had thick rimmed glasses on.

Suppose they all think they're such unique individuals as well


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Well I remember going in Bar/Bah Humbug something like 6-8 years ago and EVERY single waiter/waitress/waitperson   had thick rimmed glasses on.
> 
> Suppose they all think they're such unique individuals as well



Ah, but that was when "difficult glasses" from obscure hip opticians were still cutting edge and worn both by aspiring actors/models filling in as Brixton waitpersons and (briefly obscenely well-paid) multi-media designerds.  It was only later that they started being sported by your common or garden "yuppie" through branded "designer" diffusion ranges.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't drink in the Beehive because I don't like Wetherspoons pubs. Moreover, it's further to walk and I prefer the music and vibe of the Albert.
> 
> So please don't try and get clever with me by introducing snide, manufactured suggestions that I avoid the place for quite different reasons - because I won't fucking have it, alright?


 I asked a question. Are you going to ban me?

I thought the rule here since hatboy left was that everybody had to take everything anyone said at face value.  That has certainly seemed to be the case. 

If that is not, in fact, the case, then I must say I _resent _the suggestion  that people  who drink in the Beehive are politically feckless when the truth is that the Albert is too posh and too expensive for them. 

I also resent the suggestion you made earlier that people like me and AK desperately want to preserve Brixton in aspic. This is a gross insult to the intelligence.

But it's your gaff,  your rules. You can say _whatever you please. _


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> or what's her name from "On the Buses".


Olive Rudge
played by Anna Karen


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Is that Sophie or Amy?



LOL@ AK! 

Whichever one it is, she would not look out of place in "stylish surroundings"


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 22, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> It's well managed.



mmmm, I don't know Ak, I find some of the "Tie Wearers" are better than others. Reluctant to get somebody out when they are being totally anti-social and should be removed. I witnessed a table full of little shits in there last friday. Obviously off their heads on E and very aggressive. One of them got in a fight with a regular and were left there when they should have been lumped out.




			
				Anna Key said:
			
		

> I think it's a bit sad. A corporate giant gives Brixton one of its best pubs. While the 'thrusting entrepreneurs' offer only the BBG, and 'chum' 'chum' yuppie hellholes on Coldharbour Lane.



Theres the problem though. 

The Beehive is so good because of the requlars. The regulars are there because of the cheap beer. The beer is cheap because of the buying power of the corporate giant. 

If the BBG wanted to go into competition with the beehive it simply wouldn't be able to, given the cost price of their beer as against the cost price of the centrally bought weatherspoons beer. 

What do you think?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> the Albert is too posh and too expensive for them.


Which is a great shame but will be solved once the Albert puts on a decent cheap beer which, ideally, undercuts the Great Mulletted One. I know the landlord wants to do this (sell a good cheap beer).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> Ah, but that was when "difficult glasses" from obscure hip opticians were still cutting edge and worn both by aspiring actors/models filling in as Brixton waitpersons and (briefly obscenely well-paid) multi-media designerds, rather than being sported by your common or garden "yuppie" through designer's diffusion ranges.




Is that what they're really called?

Look twattish to me


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> The Beehive is so good because of the requlars. The regulars are there because of the cheap beer. The beer is cheap because of the buying power of the corporate giant.


 Agreed. But the beer comes from a great many small independent breweries all over the country who would go to the wall without 'spoons as a national distributor and outlet. So it does a great service to the independent brewing industry and ensures that we get to sup ales from parts of the country whose ware we would never otherwise have a chance to taste. 

Yes, Mullet makes a big profit, but not in the same way as, say, Nike. He is providing a great service to small brewers and the ale drinking public -- especially the POOR ale drinking public.  Don't forget the whole concept was originally based on Orwell's vision of a perfect boozer.  Mullet has made a packet because it is an incredibly popular model.  Even I'm not enough of a raging red to hate him for that. 

I was going to stay in tonight but this thread has given me a raging thirst for a pint or two of Summer Lightning.  It's fine so long as you spit the twigs out.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 22, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> The Beehive is so good because of the requlars. The regulars are there because of the cheap beer. The beer is cheap because of the buying power of the corporate giant.


Spot on. But one thing you can do - which, hopefully the Albert will do before too long - is put on a loss-leader.

You sell your Stella and Star for £2.60-£3.00 but have a good supply of, effectively, a subsidised beer for those who can't afford the wife beater.

I vote for Summer Lightning. Trouble is, it's such a good beer everyone would abandon wife beater and glug it in five minutes.


----------



## rennie (Apr 22, 2004)

Me n'all.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I asked a question. Are you going to ban me?
> 
> But it's your gaff,  your rules. You can say _whatever you please. _


Have I stopped you saying _anything you like _ here? YES/NO?

Have I threatened you with a ban? YES/NO?

Stop being so fucking melodramatic. I've got enough on my plate without you trying to twist my words and stir up pointless arguments.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Have I stopped you saying _anything you like _ here? YES/NO?
> 
> Have I threatened you with a ban? YES/NO?
> 
> Stop being so fucking melodramatic. I've got enough on my plate without you trying to twist my words and stir up pointless arguments.


 Well don't make insulting insinuations about other people, then, if you don't want an argument.

You've had plenty of time today to get stuck in on this thread, despite being so incredibly busy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

editor:

you shouldn't tell people which brixton pubs you avoid, cos - ime - people conspire in places which they know one avoids, knowing that you won't find out about it till their dastardly schemes are laid in motion.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> editor:
> 
> you shouldn't tell people which brixton pubs you avoid, cos - ime - people conspire in places which they know one avoids, knowing that you won't find out about it till their dastardly schemes are laid in motion.


 _SHUSH!!!_


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

i told you so!


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Well don't make insulting insinuations about other people, then, if you don't want an argument.
> 
> You've had plenty of time today to get stuck in on this thread, despite being so incredibly busy.


You've got that the wrong way around.

You were the one posting up deeply offensive suggestions about why I supposedly avoided the Beehive.

And I've been incredibly busy trying to keep these fucking boards alive. It's all I've done for the past week.

Oh, and I've just lost my one and only job. Have you got a smart arse comment up your sleeve about that too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2004)

i'm very sorry to hear that, editor.


----------



## hendo (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh, and I've just lost my one and only job. QUOTE]
> 
> very sorry indeed to hear that.


----------



## IntoStella (Apr 22, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> You've got that the wrong way around.
> 
> You were the one posting up deeply offensive suggestions about why I supposedly avoided the Beehive.
> 
> ...


 I found your  _previous_ insinuations about Beehive drinkers and people who don't like style bars pretty damn offensive as well.

I'm very sorry to hear about the job, and yes, you are up to your neck in it. But nobody forced you to get stuck into this argument. 

The suggestion that I would have a smart arsed comment to make about you losing your job is pretty fucking hurtful from someone who is supposed to be a ''chum". 

And this  thread started out so civilised, too.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> The suggestion that I would have a smart arsed comment to make about you losing your job is pretty fucking hurtful from someone who is supposed to be a ''chum".


Nowhere near as offensive as the suggestion that I would avoid a pub because it has "poor people" in it.

Your stirred up the shit with that unnecessary and completely unqualified suggestion and your brought-forward, delayed cod-'outrage' about my earlier (since twisted) comments doesn't excuse it either. 

Now are you going to answer my questions or were your _completely groundless_ 'banning' and 'censorship' comments just another throwaway slur on my character?


----------



## dum dum (Apr 22, 2004)

Take a break Ed,come and drink beer with me an ReNnie in the Hob.


----------



## Domski (Apr 22, 2004)

Fucking nora - another runaway thread - I'll go short of 500 at a pound a post please IS 

I think it's a shame Pangaea's owners have turned it into a cocktail factory as I used to enjoy the happy hour pizza and meal deals - sure, it wasn't great but a nice place to have a quick and cheap meal and I don't think I'll be going back there in a hurry.

It's sad to see the usual arguments trotted out with fuck all give on either side. All the yuppie comments just make what appear to be chips on shoulders turn into _actual_ chips on shoulders.

Pickman's - is there any chance you can try a little less HARD. Your hatred of 'yuppie scum' is pretty OTT, and although I agree that pissed up lairy amorphous groups of people are fucking awful, it matters not what class they're from as such groups are invariably complete cunts... be they city traders, public schoolboys or the local tramps...

It's good to see hatboy is still posting although it's not great to see _what_ he's posting. I'm sure he's feeling emotional about the whole situation but it's fucking ridiculous to suggest that shop windows are about to get smashed because the undertone of wealth division in Brixton is about to boil over... IS IT REALLY? or was that the single biggest piece of melodrama EVER. If we are about to see a big ruck isn't what can be done about this a far more serious issue than some fucking bar on Atlantic road. 

Also, loved the suggestion that the George IV has been 'yuppified'... LOL x 10000000 - Pie 1's analysis is spot on - I had no idea that the Yuppies of today were so keen on their horse tranquiliser and acid techno 

Anyway - it's good to see that the board appeared to be a bit more welcoming to some newbies despite the fact that they're the type of people who made the former moderator of this board wretch  What really fucks me is off is how some people think they have the god given right to decide who is bland and who isn't - fuck off - Hatboy once said that 'one man's bonkers interests were another's beliefs' and the same is true of blandness - bollocks to anyone's judgement on what is or isn't bland.


----------



## Bob (Apr 22, 2004)

Hatboy - don't you think that you were being slightly overaggressive calling somebody 'a bunch of cunts'?  You're hardly going to persuade people that you're right by simply insulting them.

Also Bradys - as I understand it the council own it (and I think they've always owned it) and part of the problem is that years ago the council signed a deal with London Underground to redevelop Bradys and the back of the tube - but the contract allows LU to not start work until the tube is finished. Presumably that will be sometime soon. I assume that Bradys is likely to go back into some sort of non residential use simply because of its proximity to the railway line.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2004)

dum dum said:
			
		

> Take a break Ed,come and drink beer with me an ReNnie in the Hob.


I'd fucking love to, but as I'm running out of time to sort out the server problem, I'llbe staying in all night firing off letters 

I've been blagging on full output all day but those darn knockbacks keep comin' in thick and fast!

But I'll be out tomorrow. Don't you worry about that. Oh yes 

(will you and RenNie be Alberting tomorrow too?)


----------



## pooka (Apr 22, 2004)

It's always a puzzle that the gentrification threads on Urban that most vehemently claim to promote the cause of the "poor", are invariably those concerned with changing styles of consumption of _luxury goods _ - namely drinking in boozers and eating out.

Whenever I've been poor, I neither drank in pubs nor ate out. 

Poor people obsess about food on the table, their kids school uniforms and school prospects, making the rent ... not the relative merits of style bars as against old mens' boozers.

These threads aren't about poverty at all - except perhaps in a self delusionary way. They're about one generation of [mostly white], middle class Brixton settlers resenting the arrival of their successors. And how!


----------



## oryx (Apr 23, 2004)

my 2p worth:

Having lived sort of south central London for over 20 years, I've seen a whole generation of crap pubs (I'm not really talking Brixton here, more up the road in Clapham/east Battersea) turn into a whole new generation of crap bars.

The former would guarantee you unfriendly stares from the locals who had been drinking in there for years and did not welcome anyone new even if they did nothing more offensive than order a pint or two, drink, smoke a couple of fags & leave. You felt you were intruding on their turf. A lot of these pubs changed hands in the late 80s or early 90s - the usual story, strip out the patterned carpet & dralon/vinyl seats & strip out the floors, start selling trendy European beer at £2.00 a pint (which was expensive then!) and start doing food which inevitably included ciabatta, rocket, goat cheese & sundried tomatoes.   

I used to like these bars when they were a novelty but every time I see one open now, I cringe, TBH. No more character than the old style boozers.

The best example is the pub on Clapham Manor Street which has gone from being filled with shaven-headed beer monsters waving pool cues & trying to restrain their stereotypical hard-guy's dogs (when it was the Bowyer) to being filled with skinny birds yah-ing into mobile phones and public school types who wear rugby shirts and think they're cool 'cos they once bought drugs from someone with dreadlocks (now it's the Bread & Roses).

Another example is the bar on Lavender Hill that's been taken over by the guy who runs Living. Having read stuff on here, I know a Living type bar is probably not my thing, but I can assure you that in its former incarnation it made The Slaughtered Lamb look like the bar in Cheers. 

I do realise that I'm really flogging the stereotypes here but IMHO that's the score with these bars. I don't especially mean the one in question, I know it didn't replace a pub. 

The good pubs, with character & welcome & OK prices, like the Albert & the Landor (well I like the Landor!) and many others, seem to buck this trend.


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 23, 2004)

oryx said:
			
		

> The best example is the pub on Clapham Manor Street which has gone from being filled with shaven-headed beer monsters waving pool cues & trying to restrain their stereotypical hard-guy's dogs (when it was the Bowyer) to being filled with skinny birds yah-ing into mobile phones and public school types who wear rugby shirts and think they're cool 'cos they once bought drugs from someone with dreadlocks (now it's the Bread & Roses).


True the one evening I've been, but I like it in there at lunchtime because you can let the children run around the back room with the other children, occasionally with some inoffensive African music playing.


----------



## Shelly P (Apr 23, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> True the one evening I've been, but I like it in there at lunchtime because you can let the children run around the back room with the other children, occasionally with some inoffensive African music playing.



I agree, for all its sins it is one of the few child friendly pubs in the area. They have a child friendly policy that allows children in the back room (or garden) until 9pm and I haven't found many pubs around brixton or clapham that allow that. For that reason alone I've been forced to endure many an early evening drink in there, although I must say I agree that the later evening clientele do seem kinda posh, but I guess thats true of anywhere in clapham. 

As for the BBG I can't say I'm truly all that bothered. I certainly won't be going there for the same reason I don't go to a lot of places, because they don't attract me enough to justify the expense. I guess in theory I might go there for a birthday or some other special occasion but thats about it. I did used to eat in Pangea sometimes when it frist opened, but at some point along the line they changed chefs and after being served up virtually raw pizza twice in a row I stopped eating there altogether. BBG bothers me far less than some other things - the old brixton bike shop standing empty, being used to store the living rooms beer barrels, for example.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 23, 2004)

pooka said:
			
		

> It's always a puzzle that the gentrification threads on Urban that most vehemently claim to promote the cause of the "poor", are invariably those concerned with changing styles of consumption of _luxury goods _ - namely drinking in boozers and eating out.
> 
> Whenever I've been poor, I neither drank in pubs nor ate out.
> 
> ...



Have you forgotten that pubs didn't used to be luxury goods?  I think you're contradicting yourself.  Even the very poorest need a social life and you find ways of eeking out a pint at your local if you want to be there and see the people.  I know (I am) very poor people who go to cheap pubs.  It's the fact that for many pubs are such a vital part of ordinary social networks that people get so upset about these exclusive/excluding places.

I personally also hate the bland style of them.




			
				Pooka said:
			
		

> These threads aren't about poverty at all - except perhaps in a self delusionary way. They're about one generation of [mostly white], middle class Brixton settlers resenting the arrival of their successors. And how!



Easy to write it off as that. Speaking for myself, yeah I feel overtaken by all this young prof/Starbucks thing. It's overwhelming. But I'm sufficiently self-aware to see that it's unhealthy not to accept myself ageing and change in general. I know young people, new to Brixton that I like. But the trend is for the monied with more conservative tastes and demands to exploit this and other areas of London. I DON'T LIKE ALL THE CHANGES I SEE.  AND I DON'T LIKE THE SOCIAL ENGINEERING OF LONDON FOR THE RICH.

I am genuinely poor and my class is a mixture. Most of my friends are poor, be they indigenous Londoners, from other places/countries and whatever colour.  Nearly everyone I speak to talks in a similar way about what's happening here.

And come on Pooks, I've met you - who do you know? Who are you?

If you don't know, get to know.  

IntoStella's right about some of your posts being all mealy-mouthed and rational, but other stuff is going on. 

BEWARE of the REASONABLE.  Tony Blair sounds "reasonable" - it's spin.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2004)

It should be noted that it's not just 'yuppification' that is driving changes in pubs - one of the things that has resulted in pubs changing has been the breweries drive to make them more (ahem) "women-friendly" - so dark, smokey, frosted window bars with rickety old chairs have been replaced by inviting windows, softer colours, sofas, open plan layouts and less of a geeza-tastic atmosphere.

www.ias.org.uk/factsheets/women.pdf


----------



## tarannau (Apr 23, 2004)

To be fair, I think misty eyed memories of the halcyon days of Brixton's pubs may be a little idealistic. I can barely remember any of my parents generation, or their friends, drinking regularly in pubs nearby. Maybe for a  couple of special occasions, but certainly not to the frequency we're accustomed to - there simply didn't seem to be the money around.

Most of the pubs weren't exactly welcoming or particularly inclusive back then either. Endless family get togethers, parties and social greet-ups tended to fill the void. Tears certainly weren't shed when a couple of pubs, somewhat notorious for their divisive atmosphere, were burnt to the ground  in the riots.

Brixton's pubs were always going to go through a transitional stage - the whole ongoing cultural and economic shift assured that. As a whole, I don't believe the pubs back then were any more reflective of, or welcoming of, the wider social mix than they are now.  

I'm not going to shed too many tears over Panagea either. An average pizza place seems to have been replaced by a marginally more expensive tapas joint, with only a minor shift (at most) of the management. I don't see BBG as an inevitable sign of unwarranted gentrification, any more than I did when I heard that some poncey wood-burning pizza restarant was replacing good time dive Taco Joe's back then...


----------



## hatboy (Apr 23, 2004)

Bla, bla, bla Tarannau.

BUT, whatever the pubs were (leaving aside the racist George in Railton and Windsor Castle in Leeson), they weren't expensive or stuck-up.

I don't miss Pangea Pizza either. But everytime something goes it steps up to something more rip-off.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 23, 2004)

Shelly P said:
			
		

> BBG bothers me far less than some other things - the old brixton bike shop standing empty, being used to store the living rooms beer barrels, for example.


Too right. You're not the only one. From a recent report by the local neighbourhood association:


> 9.2 APT organised locally against plans to site a nightclub in the old Brixton Cycles building adjacent to Clifton Mansions on Coldharbour Lane and provided the objectors' speaker at planning committee.
> 
> 9.3 In September 2003 Lambeth Councillors on planning committee, from all three political parties, voted 5:1 to refuse permission for the proposed development. On 10th February 2004 planning committee voted 6:0 to reject the same application.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> What's needed in central Brixton is a good independent pub which brews its own beer.


a firkin? they're bloody dear establishments.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2004)

Only got up to page 6 so far(and skipped a bit).Just thought Id say its good to see Hatboy on good form here


----------



## kea (Apr 23, 2004)

slightly off-topic but didn't wanna start a whole new thread, just thought you guys might be interested in this, from today's Evening Standard magazine ...



> Word is Jamie Oliver wants to repeat his Fifteen restaurant/TV experience in Brixton. (Remember the first? 15 useless people who can't cook become chefs). 'We keep seeing Jamie poking about over the road in an old Irish pub that was called Bradys,' says a cocktail shaker at the trendy new Brixton Bar and Grill on Atlantic Rd.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2004)

pooka said:
			
		

> It's always a puzzle that the gentrification threads on Urban that most vehemently claim to promote the cause of the "poor", are invariably those concerned with changing styles of consumption of _luxury goods _ - namely drinking in boozers and eating out.
> 
> Whenever I've been poor, I neither drank in pubs nor ate out.
> 
> ...



   How do you now what poor people "obsess" about Pooka?Youve made statements like this before.I think the discussion was not about the rock bottom poor but those with some money who now find it increasingly difficult to find a cheap night out.

   Poverty or "social exclusion" can be looked at in different ways.Compared to a third world country everyone in this country is relatively wealthy.Looking purely at income is not a satisfactory way to look at inequality of wealth and social power.

  "Gentrification" is a case in point.Its not merely about "poverty" but about the reduction of choice and the "social exclusion" of some following "regeneration".Culture is not a factor to be dismissed in IMO.Your coming across as a hard headed Marxist not a post marxist like me  .Consumption and style-ideology-has been studied as an important part of politics in more recent (post)Marxist theory-and that started with working class culture(Mods and Rockers,Punk).Style and Consumption have been an important factor in Working class culture since consumerism started in the 60s(in all its contradictions).

  The problem is that since Thatcherism smashed the Working class in the 80s they are still getting stuffed IMO.Thats if a Working class exist as it did previously.If the Working class dont exist in their previous form then people may find identities in more complex ways.Their sexuality,race,the mixture of cultures and classes they come from etc.I believe its the possible growing lack of choice to be what one wants-due to Brixton becoming increasingly expensive and "Hoxtonised" thats being commented on here.Not an issue to be dismissed by telling us that we have had our day here.

  Thinking about it Im not young any more but I meet plenty of young people who are not into the rat race want to live in different ways.Where are they supposed to go?Are they supposed to just knuckle under in post Thatcher New Labour Britain?


  Your opposition between the "poor" and "white middle class" nostalgics

  Their is such a thing as relative poverty of wealth and power.The wealth of a country might go up overall but if the structures of inequality remain then the resentments and feelings of powerless remain.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2004)

kea said:
			
		

> slightly off-topic but didn't wanna start a whole new thread, just thought you guys might be interested in this, from today's Evening Standard magazine ..
> 
> "'We keep seeing Jamie poking about over the road in an old Irish pub that was called Bradys,' says a cocktail shaker at the trendy new Brixton Bar and Grill on Atlantic Rd".


Aaaargh! I don't really care if one bar I rarely frequented is replaced by another equally unappealing boozer, but if that rubber lipped toff starts his puckafication antics in Brady's I will be _deeply_ unchuffed.


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 23, 2004)

'We keep seeing Jamie poking about over the road in an old Irish pub that was called Bradys,' says a cocktail shaker at the trendy new Brixton Bar and Grill on Atlantic Rd. 


that's kinda weird/funny/strange but i guess it's a decent enough usage for a place that's been empty 5 years

gets all nostalgic and goes


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> its good to know that the editor of this board has such an open and tolerant view...thank you for implying i shouldn't have to spend my valuable and limited spare time playing dominoes in dimly lit, smoke filled, yellow stained bars...
> 
> anna key alas i am at a loss as to your Communist view...have you ever considered living in Cuba per say its just that i think you will find the ideology imposed on Communist populations far more to your liking..
> 
> ...



  Good start to being a poster here.Anna was talking of the structure that allows such places as BBG to supplant others.He was arguing for regulation of Capitalism and the "Free market" through for example planning.

  You then launch into that old insult Id thought I wouldnt hear anymore.It used to be that people with "Communist" views should "Go and live in Russia".Nice one.What about North Korea?The Cuban people fought for their independance from a proxy US regime.They have a standard of Healthcare that is almost comparable to the West and a burgeoning Biotechnology industry.

  Perhaps the USA might be more your cup of tea.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Bla, bla, bla Tarannau.


Just because he makes points that you don't agree with, there's no reason to be so dismissive.

His experiences and opinions are every bit as valid as yours.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2004)

twisted said:
			
		

> that's kinda weird/funny/strange but i guess it's a decent enough usage for a place that's been empty 5 years


What?! I'd prefer to see Brady's return to a decent, cheap bar hosting on local talent than have it turn into a millionaire's self-promoting plaything.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 23, 2004)

Editor - About Tarranau:  Of course, especially as a born Londoner. He knows I respect that. I know him. But I was taking the piss of his ever-so-reasonable style.

G*** knows I think he's too polite and fence-sitting sometimes.


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 23, 2004)

kea said:
			
		

> Word is Jamie Oliver wants to repeat his Fifteen restaurant/TV experience in Brixton.









"We're all doomed... doomed, I tell ye"


----------



## Bob (Apr 23, 2004)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> The Cuban people fought for their independance from a proxy US regime.They have a standard of Healthcare that is almost comparable to the West and a burgeoning Biotechnology industry.



Er and you get locked up if you disagree with the regime Gramsci... if you want to big up Communists who actually achieve things in a democracy then consider Kerala - life expectancy of 70, universal literacy, extraordinary gender equality - mainly due to a Communist party that could get elected and stay elected. Not a dictatorship like Cuba.

Anyway back to Bradys - I still think it's waiting for the tube to be finished...


----------



## hatboy (Apr 23, 2004)

From the Standard:

" 'We keep seeing Jamie poking about over the road in an old Irish pub that was called Bradys,' says a cocktail shaker at the trendy new Brixton Bar and Grill on Atlantic Rd."


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 23, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> What?! I'd prefer to see Brady's return to a decent, cheap bar hosting on local talent



I've been hoping for exactly that to happen ever since Brady's closed its doors but it doesn't look like it'll ever happen does it? Brixton and south London could do with more cheap venues.

From what I understand (I never watch his programmes as he irritates me pukking greatly) he did at least employ local working class people in his east end joint. 

I guess I just get sad seeing Bradys empty and near enough any usage would be better than its current emptiness.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 24, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Editor - About Tarranau:  Of course, especially as a born Londoner. He knows I respect that. I know him. But I was taking the piss of his ever-so-reasonable style.
> 
> G*** knows I think he's too polite and fence-sitting sometimes.


so now you don't want people to be polite or reasonable on here anymore?

well fuck you!










is that better?


----------



## pooka (Apr 24, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Have you forgotten that pubs didn't used to be luxury goods? I think you're contradicting yourself.



I'm using the expression to mean something that people spend spare cash on, and spend more on the more spare cash they have. I don't equate having a conducive boozer with having a decent home, school, doctors or accessible shops for example.

But Gramsci's comments (below) suggest that it's not poverty in that sense that people are talking about.




			
				hatboy said:
			
		

> And come on Pooks, I've met you - who do you know? Who are you?



We have indeed met. But I'm none the wiser what this means or how I can answer it. Who am I? D'you want a biography or summat? Who do I know? Will an address book do?




			
				hatboy said:
			
		

> IntoStella's right about some of your posts being all mealy-mouthed and rational, but other stuff is going on.



Well, I'm glad you two are chums again   I'll own up to trying to be rational, but hardly mealy mouthed - I'd get less stick on here if I were, I think.




			
				Gramsci said:
			
		

> How do you now what poor people "obsess" about Pooka?Youve made statements like this before.I think the discussion was not about the rock bottom poor but those with some money who now find it increasingly difficult to find a cheap night out.



I reckon I've been around long enough, and in enough different places and personal circumstances, to have as fair a view as most who post on here. Have to say Gramsci, you frequently imply that unless people current experience, or direct evidence of something (or have read what a French philosopher has had to say about it  ), then they can't hold a view. It's a remarkably restrictive view.

But I think on this subject we're not saying anything much different. I'm saying that 'poor people' are frequently invoked on these threads to fuel a moral outrage against the changing styles of watering holes and eateries. My suggestion is that this isn't about poverty as we might erstwhile have seen it. 
You seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. I've said elsewhere (on the Blanding thread I think) that the passion these threads generate is because they're about _ownership_ [of Brixton and _identity_. You seem to saying pretty much the same thing.  

But that leads us to the position where all the angst of these threads isn't about heavyweight issues like housing (apart from Rushcroft Road, of course) or schools, or community safety or health but about the offended sensibilities of people who define themselves (and others) in consumerist terms - what sort of boozer they drink in or what sort of cafe/restaurant they eat in. Or that it's a more pragmatic lament that it's becoming 'increasingly difficult to find a cheap night out'.

I find that sadly shallow, but perhaps I'm just being old fashioned


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2004)

Bob said:
			
		

> Er and you get locked up if you disagree with the regime Gramsci... if you want to big up Communists who actually achieve things in a democracy then consider Kerala - life expectancy of 70, universal literacy, extraordinary gender equality - mainly due to a Communist party that could get elected and stay elected. Not a dictatorship like Cuba.
> 
> Anyway back to Bradys - I still think it's waiting for the tube to be finished...



 Fair enough comment.But you know what I mean.Its an old insult to through at someone in this Country that they should go and live somewhere else if they espouse "Communistic" views.It goes along with the belief that "Communistic" views are "alien to the British way of life"-as I was taught at school.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2004)

pooka said:
			
		

> I reckon I've been around long enough, and in enough different places and personal circumstances, to have as fair a view as most who post on here. Have to say Gramsci, you frequently imply that unless people current experience, or direct evidence of something (or have read what a French philosopher has had to say about it  ), then they can't hold a view. It's a remarkably restrictive view.
> 
> But I think on this subject we're not saying anything much different. I'm saying that 'poor people' are frequently invoked on these threads to fuel a moral outrage against the changing styles of watering holes and eateries. My suggestion is that this isn't about poverty as we might erstwhile have seen it.
> You seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. I've said elsewhere (on the Blanding thread I think) that the passion these threads generate is because they're about _ownership_ [of Brixton and _identity_. You seem to saying pretty much the same thing.
> ...



   Ive read the Hatboy post 241 and mine again (249) to see if it was not clear enough.I think it is.Im not saying that people should use direct experience only or implying that.Im not saying the same thing as you.I dont necessarily draw a strict division between "culture" and more "hard" issues like housing.Even Marx in looking at wages saw that a certain element of it was related to the price of beer.

  How people define the selves is a question thats easily belittled as relatively unimportant.By the Left as well as "Libs".

  How "consumerism" operates in a Capitalist "free market" to give the impression of choice and "diversity" without actually doing that is an important question.In fact its not the likes of me that makes it an issue.Its how Capitalism is going in this Country.The biggest growth in the UK economy is the service sector not manufacturing.Thats where the profits are now.Manufacturing is being "outsourced" overseas.

  Its why the Council/GLA is promoting the idea of making Brixton a "Cultural Quarter".If that going to mean anything other than "Hoxtonisation" then the supposedly "softer" political issues are relevant.


----------



## pooka (Apr 25, 2004)

I agree with you Gramsci - how people define themselves, and the signs, signifiers, cultural references, whatever,  they use,  is a very important (and fascinating) issue. But having said that, 

(1) I still think it's secondary to 'bread on the table' issues, which is what references to 'the poor' on these threads are appealing to. If all people are saying is "There are fewer places in Brixton now where you can have a cheap night's drinking" then fair enough, but hardly a burning social issue; 
(2) I personally find it sad that we accept its a good thing for people to buy into consumerism in that way;
(3) Of all the consumer badges that people might adopt to define themselves, alcohol is hardly benign - we now lead Europe in binge drinking and about two thirds of A&E cases on a Saturday night are alcohol related;
(4)It's certainly the case that the mix of available consumerist "badges", in Brixton, is shifting. But as far as I can make out there's still something for everyone.

Take a stroll from Tate Gardens to the Brixton Nick and back up the other side and take in the retail outlets - the £ shops, the pawn brokers full of bling, Mario's Cafe, the discount furniture-come-second hand shop, Morleys, the huge trainers shop, KFC _and_ McD's - a gentrified high street? Pshaw!


----------



## Smølfine (Apr 25, 2004)

Bob said:
			
		

> if you want to big up Communists who actually achieve things in a democracy then consider Kerala - life expectancy of 70, universal literacy, extraordinary gender equality - mainly due to a Communist party that could get elected and stay elected. Not a dictatorship like Cuba.



Kerala? India? really? oo eer!

Tell me more 


sorry don't mean to derail


----------



## hatboy (Apr 25, 2004)

Walked past Brixton Bar and Grill just now and it was just one big bright patch of beige blandness. Few customers and a dead plain interior.  

Later I passed Atlantic 66 - a big patch of blonde blandness.  I think there were some people in there. They could have been shop-maniquins - hard to tell really. All looked like the same person in the same clothes.

Like all those people pretending to be normal in "The Truman Show".   Except that these really mean it!

Scarilly underwhelming places. Even if I was rich I would still not go in these places. They are just not interesting enough.  As a poor, but conscious person, they are beneath me already.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Walked past Brixton Bar and Grill just now and it was just one big bright patch of beige blandness.


I've only ever walked past the place too, but have to say it looks most unwelcoming: even with the doors open it seems dark and gloomy and offers very little incentive to go in.

In fact, I'd imagine that unless they make some steps to make the place seem more welcoming to Brixtonites (upon whose trade they're going to rely once the StyleBarFolk have scoot-sticked home after the weekend), then the place may remain underwhelmed with punters.

Thing is, I haven't got a problem with all style bars _per se _ so long as there's loads of alternatives available. And in Brixton there is. 

In fact, I'm quite happy to occasionally treat myself to a cocktail in a style bar _if they get it right _. And by getting it right, I mean remaining welcoming and accessible to all Brixtonites, regardless of the cut of their 3/4 length trews or the angle of their Hoxton Fin.

I'd say that Tongue and Groove was a good example of 'getting it right' when it first opened. Maybe the Bar and Grill could learn from that...


----------



## hatboy (Apr 25, 2004)

The variety of bars/pubs that you talk of is decreasing as these places multiply.  That variety *is* under threat. Half the decent/friendly/affordable places have already gone.



Mike said:

"In fact, I'm quite happy to occasionally treat myself to a cocktail in a style bar if they get it right . And by getting it right, I mean remaining welcoming and accessible to all Brixtonites, regardless of the cut of their 3/4 length trews or the angle of their Hoxton Fin.

I'd say that Tongue and Groove was a good example of 'getting it right' when it first opened. Maybe the Bar and Grill could learn from that..."

Accessible? Not at those prices it isn't!

I can't see myself going in to BBG tbh.  It just looks so personality-less. Just like a room of nothing.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 26, 2004)

Pooka said:

"the offended sensibilities of people who define themselves (and others) in consumerist terms - what sort of boozer they drink in or what sort of cafe/restaurant they eat in."

Destroying people's social networks by killing old pubs and cafes is about much more than "offended sensibilities" Pooka. Why can't you get that in your thick head.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Mike said:
> ". And by getting it right, I mean remaining welcoming and accessible to all Brixtonites, regardless of the cut of their 3/4 length trews or the angle of their Hoxton Fin."
> 
> Accessible? Not at those prices it isn't!


FFS: No, of course it's not accessible to _every single living soul _ in Brixton, just like not everyone can afford to frequent even the cheapest of pubs. That's capitalism for you.

I haven't got a problem with more expensive bars opening up just so long as they're not at the expense of cheaper pubs (which the T&G was not) and that they remain open to anyone who wants to go there.

The T&G certainly didn't _reduce_ choice in Brixton - it was previously an expensive restaurant which I visited precisely once. And now it's a late night bar which - if you're into that kind of thing - has a reputation for being a bit hip and occasionally putting on local talent. 

I can't speak for the place now because I haven't been there for ages, but it was a pleasant place for a late drink. Sure, it was expensive, but there was no snottiness, racism or dodgy door policy in place and the (then) owner John was certainly very generous to me!

In fact, as I recall, you visited the place several times and enjoyed yourself as did quite a few Urbanites and Albert regulars.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 26, 2004)

I agree with you about owner John's good attitude - (ie no attitude). I hear that's sadly gone now he's gone.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Destroying people's social networks by killing old pubs and cafes is about much more than "offended sensibilities" Pooka. Why can't you get that in your thick head.


Which cafe's have been 'killed' and by whom?


----------



## hatboy (Apr 26, 2004)

It's a London wide thing:

Just browse this site to see what's gone. The "Terminus Cafe" in Brixton gets an obituary from me on there.

www.classiccafes.co.uk


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> It's a London wide thing:
> 
> Just browse this site to see what's gone. The "Terminus Cafe" in Brixton...


Hold on, I thought we were talking about Brixton here, what with this being the Brixton forum in a thread discussing a Brixton Bar!

Right now, I'd say that there's *more* cafés here than at any other time I can recall, with an excellent mix of cheap, midrange and slightly more expensive cafés, from the Phoenix to the Lounge, Ritzy, SW9 etc.

Sure, some cafés have closed - that's always been going on - but there's hardly a shortage of cheap cafés in Brixton is there? In fact, I'd say that there's never been a better choice! And some are even open late!

The Terminus Café (the one in the tube arcade, yes?) wasn't 'killed' by yuppification - it was the station redevelopment that caused its downfall, and the only other only café I can recall closing recently is John's Café in Brixton Station Road: and that was - frankly - not exactly renown for the quality of its cuisine and its decline was brought about by quite separate issues - the sad contraction of the street market.


----------



## pooka (Apr 26, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Pooka said:
> "the offended sensibilities of people who define themselves (and others) in consumerist terms - what sort of boozer they drink in or what sort of cafe/restaurant they eat in."
> 
> Destroying people's social networks by killing old pubs and cafes is about much more than "offended sensibilities" Pooka. Why can't you get that in your thick head.



Don't you agree, hatboy, that how people 'define themselves' and where they centre their social networks are not a million miles apart...sides of a coin indeed.

In Brixton, in any town, their are scores of means which people use ....kids school/nursery/one o'clock club, shops, laundrette, place of worship/faith group. tenants/resident asscoc, sports, evening class, gardening allotment club, workplace.............. and boozers/cafes.

I'd hazard (but could be proved wrong) that its a minority of people for whom boozers/restaurants figure highly in the list. I guess it's something most associated with a young(ish) lifestyle, relatively free of care responsibilities and not averse to burning the candle. That may be well represented on U75 but is hardly universal to Brixton?


> Why can't you get that in your thick head.



Oh, you smooth talker you


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 26, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Aaaargh! I don't really care if one bar I rarely frequented is replaced by another equally unappealing boozer, but if that rubber lipped toff starts his puckafication antics in Brady's I will be _deeply_ unchuffed.



If ever there were a justification for a further bout of rioting, surely that is it.


----------



## fanta (Apr 26, 2004)

How the fuck do you know what it is like if your silly prejudice inhibits you from even going in and finding out for yourself? 

For example, I've never been in the Bug Bar though I've walked passed it a few times - but I won't presume to pass judgement on it or affect that I know what it is like because that would be, er, well stupid!

Well duh!

And can't you understand that _every_ bar, cafe, shop or whatever is unaccessible to someone if they have NO money at all. This includes fucking Pound Stretcher as well as BBG and similar.

Your constant ear-grating whineing about the 'lack of personalities' is begining to sound tediously mundane and a bit personality-lacking too!

Edited coz I mistakenly quoted Editor when I meant to quote Hatboy!

(you tit fanta!  )


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 26, 2004)

i walked past the bbg on friday night and made a point of looking in.  it was packed with very, very smartly dressed people, the demographic being roughly 60/40 black/white and about 70/30 female/male.  they all looked like they were enjoying themselves.

the lounge was not empty either, 70/30 black/white and 50/50 male female on the night.  it was looking chilled and pleasant.  the owner was hanging out on the doorstep and gave us a nice smile as we passed.

we were on our way to fujiyama, also packed albeit with less smartly dressed people.  the demographic there was 90/10 white/black, 50/50 male/female, with a fun night being had by all.

on the way we also passed the goose, very busy as well, with a roughly 70/30 black/white and 60/40 male/female mix.  lots of smiling faces in there too.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 26, 2004)

> For example, I've never been in the Bug Bar though I've walked passed it a few times - but I won't presume to pass judgement on it or affect that I know what it is like because that would be, er, well stupid!





Well I went in there about 7/8 years ago.  All the staff wore what I've been told are "difficult" glasses  

Enuff said


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 26, 2004)

miss minnie - that is a frightening recall of numbers after a Friday night out.   

Or did you have a PDA secreted about your person for Mass Observation  purposes such as this?  







Drinking habits documents in the Mass Observation archives


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2004)

All I've got to say on the matter is - £6 for a cocktail?  What damn fool would pay £6 for a fucking cocktail?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 26, 2004)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> What damn fool would pay £6 for a fucking cocktail?


They've already posted.


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 26, 2004)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> All I've got to say on the matter is - £6 for a cocktail?  What damn fool would pay £6 for a fucking cocktail?


What's a fair price for a cocktail in a Brixton cocktail bar? I'm afraid I haven't been to any of them.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 26, 2004)

t&g charge £6-8 but they are right proper cocktails.  it's what cocktails cost almost anywhere, i'm afraid, more in the posher parts of london.  i adore cocktails but tend to make my own.  i consider it a really big treat to buy (or be bought) a cocktail when out on the town.


----------



## Bob (Apr 26, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I agree with you about owner John's good attitude - (ie no attitude). I hear that's sadly gone now he's gone.



I've heard the same too - it's definitely more expensive to get in than it was a month or so back (up to £7! if you come in the wrong side of 11 on a Saturday...), they've got rid of some of the djs who were playing and put in a toilet attendant! Grrrrrrr.   Some of the same guys are still working there - but it feels slightly different already - and was half empty Friday night...


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> What's a fair price for a cocktail in a Brixton cocktail bar? I'm afraid I haven't been to any of them.



I have no idea.  But paying £6 for a drink is stupid IMO.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> t&g charge £6-8 but they are right proper cocktails.  it's what cocktails cost almost anywhere, i'm afraid, more in the posher parts of london.  i adore cocktails but tend to make my own.  i consider it a really big treat to buy (or be bought) a cocktail when out on the town.



Really?   

TBH cocktails ain't my thing, but £6 for a drink is extortinate.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 26, 2004)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I have no idea.  But paying £6 for a drink is stupid IMO.


 fair enough.  then again...

one good cocktail will contain several shots of alcohol.  they are often the equivalent of triples.

there is an art to mixing a cocktail - stand at the bar at t&g and watch them some time.  it takes about 6 times longer to make a cocktail than to pull a pint.

good cocktail makers cost more than pint pullers.

some cocktails combine fresh fruit with alcohol and can be healthier than soft mixers.

some people will buy one cocktail and sip it for a long time rather than neck several pints in succession.

some people (like me) find that too many fizzy drinks (lager, mixers) in a night can play havoc with the bladder.

cocktails taste nicer than lager - but that's just my opinion.  like i said, i wouldn't buy them every week, or even every month - i consider them a yummy treat!

right, the good weather is here and i can see that my watermelon and chilli dacquiries will soon be in demand...  you up for one blagsta?


----------



## fanta (Apr 26, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> fair enough.  then again...
> 
> one good cocktail will contain several shots of alcohol.  they are often the equivalent of triples.
> 
> ...



And they get you utterly pished!


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> fair enough.  then again...
> 
> one good cocktail will contain several shots of alcohol.  they are often the equivalent of triples.
> 
> ...



Naaah, gimme a can of Special Brew any day 




			
				miss minnie said:
			
		

> right, the good weather is here and i can see that my watermelon and chilli dacquiries will soon be in demand...  you up for one blagsta?




OK, you could tempt me...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> fair enough.  then again...
> 
> one good cocktail will contain several shots of alcohol.  they are often the equivalent of triples.


i'd certainly hope so! for £6 you don't want some single or double, watered down with cheap fruit juice.





> _there is an art to mixing a cocktail - stand at the bar at t&g and watch them some time.  it takes about 6 times longer to make a cocktail than to pull a pint._


very annoying when yr thirsty.





> _good cocktail makers cost more than pint pullers._


still cheap though. don't take much training to mix a cocktail.





> _some cocktails combine fresh fruit with alcohol and can be healthier than soft mixers._


soft mixers have often sat around for ages. but it depends on the quantities which you drink cocktails in.





> _some people will buy one cocktail and sip it for a long time rather than neck several pints in succession._


i've made a pint last three hours in the past. when i was skint. on other occasions i've had three pints of long island iced tea in forty minutes. depends how flush you are and what sort of company you keep.





> _some people (like me) find that too many fizzy drinks (lager, mixers) in a night can play havoc with the bladder._


alcohol itself is a diuretic. so if you drink a tun of wine or cocktails you'll still be up and down like a jack-in-the-box.





> _cocktails taste nicer than lager - but that's just my opinion.  like i said, i wouldn't buy them every week, or even every month - i consider them a yummy treat!_


if you drank them whenever you went out, they'd likely lose their charm.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 26, 2004)

thank you for the forensic analysis of my post! 

uugh - the thought of a pint 3 hours after it was pulled...


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 26, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i'd certainly hope so! for £6 you don't want some single or double, watered down with cheap fruit juice.[/i]very annoying when yr thirsty.[/i]still cheap though. don't take much training to mix a cocktail.[/i]soft mixers have often sat around for ages. but it depends on the quantities which you drink cocktails in.[/i]i've made a pint last three hours in the past. when i was skint. on other occasions i've had three pints of long island iced tea in forty minutes. depends how flush you are and what sort of company you keep.[/i]alcohol itself is a diuretic. so if you drink a tun of wine or cocktails you'll still be up and down like a jack-in-the-box.[/i]if you drank them whenever you went out, they'd likely lose their charm.



That’s the most inane and meaningless post I’ve read in a long time. Certainly not of a superior quality.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 26, 2004)

I'm inclined to agree. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to make a decent cocktail than people are giving it credit for. And much more difficult to retain a decent cocktail-maker in the long term if you're not paying decent money.

Profits from cocktails are also vastly overstated. They often contain a comparatively hefty dose of various branded spirits, expensive fruit mixers and garnish. It takes far more bar time to mix, clean and restock if things are done well.

Far easier, and more profitable, to bosch out 2 bottles of watemelon-flavour ethylene or bland 'dry' style American beer. Or to pump out a ten pints in regulation glasses in the same time it takes to make a decent caipirinha.

There again, BBG could be using the time honoured cocktail-cheaters route of roughly sloshing a couple of bottles of cheap spirits into a sweetened fruit mix. Nothing commendable or worthwhile about that. If BBG choose the latter route whilst still charging top-league prices then we know they're taking the piss more than a little....


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> That’s the most inane and meaningless post I’ve read in a long time. Certainly not of a superior quality.


curiously, that's just what i think of yr posts, always astounded how each one can surpass the previous in fuckwittery.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 26, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> curiously, that's just what i think of yr posts, always astounded how each one can surpass the previous in fuckwittery.



Come on PM you can come back better than that surely?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2004)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> Come on PM you can come back better than that surely?


i think my point's proven.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 26, 2004)

Leave it. My handbag's clearly of a superior quality...

 


Erm anyway, anyone actually stepped into BBG yet?

Inclined to agree that it looks a little uninspired, but Pangaea was hardly a hotspot of charm either...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2004)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Leave it. My handbag's clearly of a superior quality...


it's very similar to _her_ handbag....


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 26, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i think my point's proven.




You're right it is. 

And in a superior way too.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> soft mixers have often sat around for ages.


That's an amazing fact.

Where did you get it from?


----------



## moyeen (Apr 26, 2004)

So another thread about a restaurant spirals into the much-loved Gentrification vs Preservation  debate......it's almost like an unwritten rule of the Brixton Forum.  Whatever the topic it will end up as a gentrification debate.  

Me and the missus were out and baut Brixton on Saturday having ordered some timber from the Acre Lane timber yard (a great place by the way that gets no mentions on this forum!).  As it was lunchtime, she suggested that we try the  BBG and I was curious myself to have a go.  And what do you know - it was closed.  At 1245 on a Saturday lunchtime with the market packed out!  Don't these people want to make money???   

So we went to The Lounge instead.  What a great place!   We nabbed  one of the window tables, had lunch and read the papers while we watched the world go by.  A top afternoon!

There's room for the BBG in Brixton, it can exist quite happily alongside any number of other places.  So if Brixton can take it in its stride, why can't some of the people here?  Change is inevitable in any urban area, it's the way it should be but change has to be inclusive.  There should be something for everyone.  

Some of the treatment handed out to Sophie and Amy on this thread has been pretty piss poor.  Nobody has any right to tell others how they should spend their money and free time.  It's been unpleasantly judgemental and prejudiced - you don't know them but claimed to know their "type", made assuptions and ridiculed them.  Not good at all......


Moyeen


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> That's an amazing fact.
> 
> Where did you get it from?


working in pubs.

how long do you think those little bottles of bitter lemon, for instance, have been there for? months, in most cases...


----------



## Dr. Christmas (Apr 26, 2004)

Tis true- i used to work in a city pub when I was in London and your little Schweppes pineapple/grapefruit/etc bottles only ever moved off the shelf when it (and indeed the bottles themsleves) were being dusted.

The only regular turnover was tomato juice (bloody mary freaks) and bitter lemon, in summer. (St Clements or something doss like that- can't remember).


----------



## hatboy (Apr 26, 2004)

I don't think it's right to wish for another uprising Vic, just cos of a cocktail bar! 

But I do think it's legit to be concerned that continuing social and financial division could bring unrest in Brixton. And expensive and excluding bars (and housing developments) cause resentment and could contribute to it IMO.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> working in pubs.
> 
> how long do you think those little bottles of bitter lemon, for instance, have been there for? months, in most cases...


I thought we were talking about Brixton cocktail bars, not dusty old men's pubs.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2004)

moyeen said:
			
		

> So another thread about a restaurant spirals into the much-loved Gentrification vs Preservation  debate
> 
> Some of the treatment handed out to Sophie and Amy on this thread has been pretty piss poor.  Nobody has any right to tell others how they should spend their money and free time.  It's been unpleasantly judgemental and prejudiced - you don't know them but claimed to know their "type", made assuptions and ridiculed them.


I agree completely.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 26, 2004)

Good post Moyeen


----------



## tarannau (Apr 26, 2004)

Putting that aside for one second, I'm still not sure what Pickman's actually getting at with this soft mixers line.

Miss Minnie said this:
_
'some cocktails combine fresh fruit with alcohol and can be healthier than soft mixers.'_ 

Pickman's responded with this:
_
'soft mixers have often sat around for ages. but it depends on the quantities which you drink cocktails in.'_ 


Even if they a few bottles of bitter lemon have lingered on the shelf,  I'm not sure what difference that makes to the taste or healthiness of the drink. Or how it really relates to BBG or cocktail/style bars in general.

After all, it's rare for a carbonated, or even a long-life juice, mixer to go off. Unless there's a spectacularly inefficent bar with poor ordering and rebottling skills. Best before dates are long and clearly marked on the bottle.

Even well after the BB date, bottles are still likely to taste much better than the post-mix setups used in many bars.


Excellent post btw moyeen. I agree entirely.


----------



## pooka (Apr 26, 2004)

> Acre Lane timber yard (a great place by the way that gets no mentions on this forum!).



Oh, but it did....together with the redoubtable Diamond Plumbers, but that was when we were compiling a list of useful places about 18 months ago. 

Acre Lane's a great resource - 2 Timber Yards, 2 Tool Hire depots, 2 Builders Suppliers (ish), Electrical supplies, 4 Cafe's, 2 Supermarkets......

And I agree with the sentiments of your post, wholeheartedly.


----------



## moyeen (Apr 27, 2004)

On the mixers issue - as a teetotaller in pubs I generally drink mixers or disgusting diet coke from the pump.  Should I be worried about this shelf life issue    

Moyeen


----------



## tarannau (Apr 27, 2004)

I don't think so moyeen. There seems to be no real issue with bottled mixers as far as I can see.  .

After all, if the bottle tastes bad you can always take it back. And there's a convenient best before date stamped somewhere for verification - I can't really see where the problem lies. Perhaps Pickman's can explain a little more


 


Post-mix drinks - like diet coke 'from the pump' - are made from a big sachet of syrup, carbonated on the premises by a slightly flasher soda-stream-style setup. Post-mix systems can really vary in quality and consistency - bottles nearly always taste better (but cost the bar a lot more...)


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 27, 2004)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Putting that aside for one second, I'm still not sure what Pickman's actually getting at with this soft mixers line.
> 
> Miss Minnie said this:
> _
> ...



That’s because his post was imperceptive. He was trying to make Miss Minnies post appear weak by picking her up on every line. But his own responses were ridiculous.

AK does this very well where appropriate. In this case PM did it very badly.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 27, 2004)

Glad this thread has calmed down from the earlier conflict into a discussion on mixers.

What about crisps behind the bar, though? Who is pro and who is contra?


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 27, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> Glad this thread has calmed down from the earlier conflict into a discussion on mixers.
> 
> What about crisps behind the bar, though? Who is pro and who is contra?


 walkers or kettle chips?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 27, 2004)

moyeen said:
			
		

> So another thread about a restaurant spirals into the much-loved Gentrification vs Preservation  debate......it's almost like an unwritten rule of the Brixton Forum.  Whatever the topic it will end up as a gentrification debate.


But you would never take part in such a debate. Heaven forbid! Yet you wrote this:



			
				moyeen said:
			
		

> There's room for the BBG in Brixton, it can exist quite happily alongside any number of other places.  So if Brixton can take it in its stride, why can't some of the people here?  Change is inevitable in any urban area, it's the way it should be but change has to be inclusive.  There should be something for everyone.


But that's the whole point. BBG excludes the poor and encourages the yupps.



			
				moyeen said:
			
		

> Some of the treatment handed out to Sophie and Amy on this thread has been pretty piss poor.


The poor dears. My heart bleeds. They gave as good as they got. One of them offered to send me to Cuba.   

It's was all good clean fun. I even invited Sophie to the Beehive. For some reason she failed to respond to my invitation.   

Amy? Sophie? Are you at this very moment weeping into your sticky, snobby, overpriced BBG cocktails? Should we have a whip round to pay for your post traumatic stress counselling? Sophie? Amy? Are you there, you poor traumatised yupps?

Seriously moyeen. You’re talking rubbish. Sophie and Amy sound like a couple of tough cookies. They don't need your sympathy.



			
				moyeen said:
			
		

> Nobody has any right to tell others how they should spend their money and free time.



Tosh. If people spend their money in ways which damage the community, e.g. buying drugs or guns or prostitutes, or supporting divisive businesses colonising the neighbourhood and excluding the poor, then people have every right - I’d argue, a _duty_ - to criticise. 

Why can’t the BBG, together with the ‘young professionals’ who infest it, get a bit of stick from locals concerned about social exclusion? 

Are they made of glass? Are they a protected species? No. They're yupps damaging the neighbourhood who then start squealing when they're called out. And you're defending them.




			
				moyeen said:
			
		

> It's been unpleasantly judgemental and prejudiced


Exactly as you are being now. Re-read your post. It stinks of hypocrisy. You’re doing precisely what you’re criticising others for doing. 



			
				moyeen said:
			
		

> - you don't know them but claimed to know their "type", made assuptions and ridiculed them.  Not good at all......


Precisely. What you've just written is not good at all. But I forgive you.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Amy? Sophie? Are you at this very moment weeping into your sticky, snobby, overpriced BBG cocktails? Should we have a whip round to pay for your post traumatic stress counselling? Sophie? Amy? Are you there, you poor traumatised yupps?


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> If people spend their money in ways which damage the community, e.g. buying drugs or guns or prostitutes, or supporting divisive businesses colonising the neighbourhood and excluding the poor, then people have every right - I’d argue, a duty - to criticise.



I do hope that Anna will be showing solidarity with the residents of the Blenheim Gardens Estate and condemning The Windmill now that it has effectively ceased to be an estate/local pub and become a music venue every night of the week.   Although it still has cheaper drinks than some other venues being criticised here, surely there is a not inconsiderable amount of exclusion of its former customer base going on!


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 27, 2004)

pooka said:
			
		

> Oh, but it did....together with the redoubtable Diamond Plumbers, but that was when we were compiling a list of useful places about 18 months ago.
> 
> Acre Lane's a great resource - 2 Timber Yards, 2 Tool Hire depots, 2 Builders Suppliers (ish), Electrical supplies, 4 Cafe's, 2 Supermarkets......


243 frozen fish supermarkets. 546 nail bars. 778 barbers shops.

I find the Fulham Timber Company have always helped me out better than Acre Lane Timber where any question I put is met by the blank stare of a baffled teenager.


----------



## hendo (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Amy? Sophie? Are you at this very moment weeping into your sticky, snobby, overpriced BBG cocktails? Should we have a whip round to pay for your post traumatic stress counselling? Sophie? Amy? Are you there, you poor traumatised yupps?



Stooping to conquer a bit here, AK.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 27, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> Stooping to conquer a bit here, AK.


Not at all. One of them offered to send me to Cuba because she didn't like my argument which, naturally, she failed to address. 

If they can dish it out then they can take it. Sorry if the "tone" is wrong.


----------



## hendo (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> If they can dish it out then they can take it. Sorry if the "tone" is wrong.



I prefer it when you're funny rather than hating. And if you're confident you won the argument why abuse her subsequently?


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Not at all. One of them offered to send me to Cuba because she didn't like my argument which, naturally, she failed to address.
> 
> If they can dish it out then they can take it. Sorry if the "tone" is wrong.


 what was that about 'eggshell personalities'...


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 27, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> I prefer it when you're funny rather than hating. And if you're confident you won the argument why abuse her subsequently?


I'll try harder in future.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 27, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> what was that about 'eggshell personalities'...


More of a sense of humour failure....


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> More of a sense of humour failure....


 ahem, beg pardon - didn't you see the winkie smiley?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 27, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> ahem, beg pardon - didn't you see the winkie smiley?


I was referring to myself! 

Hendo's right. A couple of stroppy yupp birds shouldn't be taken too seriously.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 27, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> walkers or kettle chips?




Taytos or Salty Dog Crisps?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 27, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I do hope that Anna will be showing solidarity with the residents of the Blenheim Gardens Estate and condemning The Windmill now that it has effectively ceased to be an estate/local pub and become a music venue every night of the week.   Although it still has cheaper drinks than some other venues being criticised here, surely there is a not inconsiderable amount of exclusion of its former customer base going on!




Yep, and us poor regulars get our ears damaged almost every night


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> A couple of stroppy yupp birds shouldn't be taken too seriously.


neither should a couple of ageing, vitriolic old queens.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 27, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> neither should a couple of ageing, vitriolic old queens.


Yes Your Majesty.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Yes Your Majesty.


touche!


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> But you would never take part in such a debate. Heaven forbid! Yet you wrote this:
> 
> But that's the whole point. BBG excludes the poor and encourages the yupps.
> 
> ...



You're right AK.

Pity the poor young profs and their plight. People are aggressive to them, don't like their snotty, exclusive bars, spit near them in the street, don't do as they are told, are too loud, too scary, sell weed - whatever.

Poor dirty people in the way, angry difficult people, minorities that really shouldn't make a fuss!

Yes, Brixton really should shape up as they dictate. They are in charge after all. 

 

Fuck that.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I do hope that Anna will be showing solidarity with the residents of the Blenheim Gardens Estate and condemning The Windmill now that it has effectively ceased to be an estate/local pub and become a music venue every night of the week.   Although it still has cheaper drinks than some other venues being criticised here, surely there is a not inconsiderable amount of exclusion of its former customer base going on!



Not it's not. It's cheap and the old boys and estate customers still go in.  Seamus welcomes anyone. Including many people who are not smart enough for more upscale places.


----------



## fanta (Apr 27, 2004)

I think that Moyeen has really won the intellectual argument on this one Anna Key and Hatboy.

I suspect that you probably recognise that too even though it vexes you.

But don't let that obvious fact prevent you from continuing to dig yourselves ever deeper into that hole.

It is fun to watch.


----------



## pooka (Apr 27, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> I find the Fulham Timber Company have always helped me out better than Acre Lane Timber where any question I put is met by the blank stare of a baffled teenager.



Well, who has the best service, range or prices switches back and forth between the two over time. Since i've started to rely on getting bulky timber delivered, I have been let down on a couple of occasions by Acre Lane though - split or ridiculously knotted stuff worked in.


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Amy? Sophie? Are you at this very moment weeping into your sticky, snobby, overpriced BBG cocktails? Should we have a whip round to pay for your post traumatic stress counselling? Sophie? Amy? Are you there, you poor traumatised yupps?



Don't know why you always let your posts down by coming out with this sort of conesending, smart arse, wank. 
Along with your hilarious old codger take on "computa soundz", "chum chum music" & "awful pop music",  are you sure you wouldn't just be better off in some CAMRA sponsered nicotine parlour in a small Yorkshire market town?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2004)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Putting that aside for one second, I'm still not sure what Pickman's actually getting at with this soft mixers line.
> 
> Miss Minnie said this:
> _
> ...


if yr going to be having bottles sat around for ages _and still taste good_ don't you wonder what bizarre chemicals go into them? many people won't drink the first pint out of a pump - and that's often just been there a few minutes. although bitter lemon or whatnot may be within its sell-by, i wouldn't touch it. how many people who work in pubs (or clubs or posh bars) d'you know (or see) drinking those mixers? not a lot! and with good reason...




> _Excellent post btw moyeen. I agree entirely.
> 
> _


i'm not surprised by moyeen's top post, he's always been good with words.


----------



## moyeen (Apr 27, 2004)

Anna, the reason that I didn't contribute to the debate before was that I wanted to try and go to the BBG before saying anything.  

For the record, I did contribute to the Atlantic Bar debte and so I have commented on regeneration in Brixton before.  I'll freely admit to being more of a lurker rather than a poster but just because you don't have a track record of 5,000 posts does that make a contribution any less valid?  

I suspect that there's not so much clear water between the opposing factions in this and all the other similar debates that we've seen.  All of them like Brixton, recognise that it is somewhere very special and has a unique (in my limited experiece) mix of people.  That mix is a very fragile thing and I agree that a load of chain bars and exclusive boutiques will ruin Brixton.  But there is certainly room for a niche bar like BBG that caters for a different market to say a more traditional pub.  I think it would be awful if every re-development was some bland style bar but it's not my place to stop other risking their money on a business that they believe in. What they are doing is not illegal, so good luck to them!

For what it's worth, I think we should be pooling our collective resources and lobbying the local council and other controllers of regeneration grants.  We should be telling them that they should be matching private developments of bars with more community developments be they youth centres, community centres etc so that the befits of regeneration accrue to all and not just weekend revellers coming into Brixton for "edgy night out" (as an aside, might they be coming in because they enjoy it?)

Apologies for the length of this.  

Moyeen


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> I think that Moyeen has really won the intellectual argument on this one Anna Key and Hatboy.
> 
> I suspect that you probably recognise that too even though it vexes you.
> 
> ...



Now I understand, I'm supposed to win "intellectual arguments". There was me thinking I was in the Brixton forum cos I cared about Brixton. But no, internet bulletin boards are for pencil-dicks to win "intellectual arguments".


----------



## fanta (Apr 27, 2004)

moyeen said:
			
		

> Anna, the reason that I didn't contribute to the debate before was that I wanted to try and go to the BBG before saying anything.



Take note Hatboy! 

Isn't that a good idea of Moyeen's?


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

I honestly can't afford to go there. And I can see it's dull and full of Stepford Wives just by looking in the window.


----------



## Rollem (Apr 27, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I can see it's dull and full of Stepford Wives just by looking in the window.


i really hate comments like this about any group. you cant tell everything about someone by how they look. saddens me that you think you can hatboy 

geez!


----------



## sophie (Apr 27, 2004)

"Pity the poor young profs and their plight. People are aggressive to them, don't like their snotty, exclusive bars, spit near them in the street, don't do as they are told, are too loud, too scary, sell weed - whatever blah blah blah"

Pratboy this ludicrous statement totally misconstrues what i posted on a different thread 

No I don't like aggresion, being called a cunt, being threatened with being
pushed down the escalators etc are not enjoyable instances for me...why do you get off on that kinda thing you little freak!?!

"don't do as they are told, are too loud, too scary, sell weed - " 
ummm that's a very stupid comment seeing as i have never said or implied these things i just don't approve of people gobbing and pissing in the street...do you!??! would you like me to come and piss and gob outside your front door freakboy??

But my favourite comment of yours "Poor dirty people in the way, angry difficult people, minorities that really shouldn't make a fuss!"

Seeing as all i said AGAIN was i disapprove of street gobbers and pissers you have then rather narrow mindingly percieved i was talking about poor minorities?!!?!? did i mention race or financial status, most of the pissers are
white blokles coming out of the academy who tend to utlise the bottom of my road as a WC and to be honest i think i have rebuffed a gobber of every
race/colour....can't say i stopped to enquire as to their health of thier bank balance though. 

There always was gonna be at least one who saw my desire for healthier, cleaner, more child friendly roads in Brixton as "gentrification" and surprise surprsie it was the guy with irionc hats.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

Rollem - No I don't, but I can see perfectly when the whole thing is too conservative and sedate for my taste.  If I walked past and a vibe of laughter and character and friendliness oozed out of the place I might go in. I won't be holding my breath cos many of those I criticize like this can't see it anyway.

Sod it, it's only a poxy bar. It's not even very upmarket anyway - just looks wannabe and pretentious really , like Living, A66 and the rest.  Perfect to attract an aspirational crowd of pretentious wannabes.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

Sophie said:

"No I don't like aggresion, being called a cunt, being threatened with being
pushed down the escalators etc are not enjoyable instances for me...why do you get off on that kinda thing you little freak!?!"

Well change your obnoxious behavior so you are not a magnet for this reaction. Look in yourself and see why humanity reacts to you this way. 

(You're upset because Brixton doesn't take orders from you).


...... and then fuck off.


----------



## moyeen (Apr 27, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I honestly can't afford to go there. And I can see it's dull and full of Stepford Wives just by looking in the window.



You can do better than that, Hatboy.    

Substitute "Stepford Wives" for "black men" and think about how you would feel if someone posted something like that.

Moyeen


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

The players in these arguments are not interchangeable Moyeen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> you are not a magnate for this reaction


if you want to call her "duchess" why can't you say it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> The players in these arguments are not interchangeable Moyeen.


  yr losing yr touch, hb.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

I cannot be bothered to take apart the "substitute this for that" type of argument now. But it's easily dismantled because people don't start off in the same circumstances.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> "Pity the poor young profs and their plight. People are aggressive to them, don't like their snotty, exclusive bars, spit near them in the street, don't do as they are told, are too loud, too scary, sell weed - whatever blah blah blah"
> 
> Pratboy this ludicrous statement totally misconstrues what i posted on a different thread
> 
> ...



So you think all these comments of mine refered to you Sophie.  Well, you know whether you are these things or not. So nice of you to take on all that responsibility.  LOL.


----------



## Rollem (Apr 27, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Rollem - No I don't, but I can see perfectly when the whole thing is too conservative and sedate for my taste.  If I walked past and a vibe of laughter and character and friendliness oozed out of the place I might go in.


fair enough, i took your comment to be a remark about the appearance of the people frequenting this place, rather than the atmosphere it exudes, thats all.  (though quite how friendliness oozes out of a place i am not sure? someone on the doorstep inviting you in?  )


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> Pratboy...freakboy...


This doesn't help.


----------



## Rollem (Apr 27, 2004)

^ beat me to it (and was slightly more polite about it than i would have been!)

btw, what are irionic hats?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2004)

Rollem said:
			
		

> btw, what are irionic hats?


tinfoil hats

modelled here by elizabeth hurley:







(it's the technical term.)


----------



## sophie (Apr 27, 2004)

editor you are right it doesn't help but i think you'll find that is rather light in comparison to the names and derogatoray insinuations hatboy has used against myself and amy

and i would imagine if he gives it out so vehemently he take take something as soft as my futile name calling...but i shall cease such condemnations

and hatboy i will endeavour to work on my "obnoxious" behaviour as soon as  you would be so kind to start work on removing that massive chip on your shoulder


----------



## hatboy (Apr 27, 2004)

People are always accused of having chips when they have legit concerns but don't shut up about them.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Now I understand, I'm supposed to win "intellectual arguments". There was me thinking I was in the Brixton forum cos I cared about Brixton. But no, internet bulletin boards are for pencil-dicks to win "intellectual arguments".



Exactly! By the way, could Fanta please explain the difference between an "argument" and what one can only assume is a much more clever "intellectual argument"?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> ...could Fanta please explain the difference between an "argument" and what one can only assume is a much more clever "intellectual argument"?


The trouble is Vic the last time fanta 'won' an argument was in nineteen sixty three. Against a particularly 'intellectual' fence post.

(((Fanta)))


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> Pratboy this ludicrous statement totally misconstrues what i posted on a different thread
> 
> No I don't like aggresion, being called a cunt, being threatened with being
> pushed down the escalators etc are not enjoyable instances for me...why do you get off on that kinda thing you little freak!?!
> ...


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> The trouble is Vic the last time fanta 'won' an argument was in nineteen sixty three. Against a particularly 'intellectual' fence post.


I don't think this mud slinging particularly helps either.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Don't know why you always let your posts down by coming out with this sort of conesending, smart arse, wank.


Because it makes me laugh. Laughter is good. It clears the airways.



			
				Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Along with your hilarious old codger take on "computa soundz", "chum chum music" & "awful pop music",  are you sure you wouldn't just be better off in some CAMRA sponsered nicotine parlour in a small Yorkshire market town?


I'd prefer Cuba. Where Sophie's sending me. Bless her yuppie cotton socks.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't think this mud slinging particularly helps either.


Sorry fanta!

((((fanta))))


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> I'd prefer Cuba. Where Sophie's sending me.



You're probably right. Nice & sunny & I'm sure you could enjoy some great rum cocktails for a lot less than £6... hey, you might even like their "chan chan" music


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

I'd _love_ to go to Cuba. Before the great bearded one dies. 

Sophie? You sold that string of pearls yet? Or how about selling your little red sports car called "Freddie?"


----------



## hendo (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> I'd _love_ to go to Cuba. Before the great bearded one dies.
> 
> Sophie? You sold that string of pearls yet? Or how about selling your little red sports car called "Freddie?"



She won't need to sell Freddie, AK, as this ticket will be one-way, and perhaps not even on a plane.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> She won't need to sell Freddie, AK, as this ticket will be one-way, and perhaps not even on a plane.


or - a la pinochet - on a plane but not all the way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> Can I deduce from this inspired invective that Sophie is the new Dr. Johnson?


he of the baby oil?


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> he of the baby oil?



LOL@ PM! Well, definitely of the baby something. Tantrum, maybe?


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> Exactly! By the way, could Fanta please explain the difference between an "argument" and what one can only assume is a much more clever "intellectual argument"?



Well my dear fellow, the reason why Moyeen destroyed poor Hatboy's and Anna Key's argument is that they were 'debating' from a position of ignorance.

Both of them are prejudiced. They do not know what the Brixton Bar Grill is like - but they presume to pass damning judgement on it and the people who go there. 

Stupidly, they are trying to define something that they are both ignorant of.

This is pre-judging - ie being prejudiced. It is what bigots do and what they are rightly pilloried for. It deserves to be made fun of and laughed at. 

Basically, it is silly and means you're not taken seriously. This makes them embarrassed and vexed - hence the resorting to ad hominem name-calling.

I bet you're glad you're not like that isvicthere, huh!?

So you see, I don't think there is any difference between an "argument" and what one can only assume is a much more clever "intellectual argument". My point is that Moyeen is, going by this spat, quite a bit brighter than our two friends Hatboy and Anna Key! 

(Gosh, you are angry Anna Key aren't you?  )


----------



## hendo (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Both of them are prejudiced. They do not know what the Brixton Bar Grill is like - but they presume to pass damning judgement on it and the people who go there.
> 
> Stupidly, they are trying to define something that they are both ignorant of.
> 
> )



You don't have to be trodden on by an elephant to notice that it is both heavy and grey.


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> You don't have to be trodden on by an elephant to notice that it is both heavy and grey.



An amusing, thoughtful, but sadly inappropriate analogy old boy!


----------



## hendo (Apr 28, 2004)

I disagree with AK about the BBG, but my point is he doesn't have to actually drink its Harvey Wallbangers to see that the bar isn't what he wants for his neighbourhood.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> She won't need to sell Freddie


Oh good. Freddie:


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> So you see, I don't think there is any difference between an "argument" and what one can only assume is a much more clever "intellectual argument". My point is that Moyeen is, going by this spat, quite a bit brighter than our two friends Hatboy and Anna Key! )



Or perhaps Moyeen agrees with you and you flatter yourself with the assertion that someone who thinks along the same lines as you is "quite a bit brighter" than someone who doesn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2004)

moyeen's a top bloke, but i do find his taste in bars somewhat suspect!


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> (Gosh, you are angry Anna Key aren't you?  )


Incandescent. 

Your argument, as Hendo implies - with assistance from an elephant - is analogous to an argument which held that only a barrister who has himself committed murder is able properly to defend an alleged killer.

Or only a scientist who has himself visited Mars can comment meaningfully on the Red Planet.

Or only a physicist who has himself directly observed phenomena at the quantum level - which is impossible - can advance theories concerning the behaviour of protons, neutrons and quarks.

So your argument that direct experience of a thing is a _necessary condition_ for being able to comment meaningfully on that thing is, with respect, nonsense. It is a clearly fallacious argument. It is demonstrably false. Bad luck!   

Where does this leave the rest of your excellent post? One bit's quite funny:




			
				fanta said:
			
		

> ad hominem name-calling.


Poor fanta. Can’t you see that this is _precisely what you've done in your post?_

You accuse me of _ad hominem name-calling_ then use words such as “prejudiced,” “stupid,” “bigot” and “ignorant” to describe me. In other words your post includes a classic example of _ad hominem name-calling. _

This is what is known as _hypocrisy._ But don't worry about it.

So:

(a) your argument is demonstrably false; and

(b) you have yourself done _precisely_ what you accuse others are doing.

But I forgive you.

(((fanta)))


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Incandescent.
> 
> Your argument, as Hendo implies - with assistance from an elephant - is analogous to an argument which held that only a barrister who has himself committed murder is able properly to defend an alleged killer.


in the introduction to a collection of tales of the supernatural, "rev" montague summers told an anecdote of _the_ dr johnson listening to sheridan declaiming some lines from his latest play, culminating in something like "whoever leads freemen must himself be free!"

to which the great sage observed, "you might as well say whoever drives fat cattle must himself be fat."


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> But I forgive you.
> 
> (((fanta)))






			
				f w nietzsche said:
			
		

> it is inhuman to bless where one is cursed


just so.  .. .


----------



## pooka (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Oh good. Freddie:




Anna, your fluent familiarity with the foibles and mores of whole class of people you purport to despise is just a tad worrying - is there anything you need to share with us? Self loathing can be so destructive - talking can sometimes be a great help, you know {{{{Anna}}}}   

But that aside, really Anna - showing a left hand drive model of a British classic! Where was you brought up?  


{{{{}}}} = _sincere _ and _caring_ hugs of a _concerned_ nature


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> I disagree with AK about the BBG, but my point is he doesn't have to actually drink its Harvey Wallbangers to see that the bar isn't what he wants for his neighbourhood.



Of course and that is fair enough!

But you know, Anna Key's prejudice reminds me of a recent incident at work.

I had to accompany a contractor to one of our server rooms to investigate a possible fibre optic fault with some of their kit.

He was a nice enough lad from deepest Essex. (nothing wrong with that) During the course of his diagnosis we got chatting and he asked me where I live. I said Brixton. 

The atmosphere noticeably changed. He looked sympatheticaly at me and tut-tuted with a sharp intake of breath. Then he told me he was sorry for me and that he understood it must be awful.

I asked him if he had ever been to Brixton.

He said no - but he _knew_ it was a terrible place to live!

I must say that I admired such omniscient opinion, and it is great to know that he is not alone in having this remarkable gift.

Is he Anna Key?


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> Or perhaps Moyeen agrees with you and you flatter yourself with the assertion that someone who thinks along the same lines as you is "quite a bit brighter" than someone who doesn't.




Good heavens, certainly not! I just think we both agree that it is daft to judge something that you are ignorant of!

Now I know you agree with that?


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> moyeen's a top bloke, but i do find his taste in bars somewhat suspect!



I've had people say the same to me when they learn I like the Beehive. I imagine my friend from deepest Essex would!


----------



## moyeen (Apr 28, 2004)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> moyeen's a top bloke, but i do find his taste in bars somewhat suspect!



I should 'fess up here and say that PM and myself went to school together.   

I can't say whether I like BBG as it was closed on the one time the missus and I tried to go there.  But I'd like to go just to see what it is like.  I've been to the Atlantic a few times but prefer The Lounge.    I don't think I am any cleverer than anyone else and certainly am not looking to win an "intellectual" (or any other) argument.  I like these boards - they are interesting and often thought provoking.  

I have a great deal of sympathy for AK and Hatboy's arguments - all the points they make about the costs of gentrification are important ones.  My view is that change is inevitable in an urban area and that has always been the nature of conurbations.  In my view, the crucial thing  is how the _process _ of change is managed.  I think that those of us who are relative newcomers to the area (I've lived in and around Brixton for 7 years) should look to get involved in local issues, pressure our councillors into pushing forward a regeneration agenda in a direction and way that brings the greatest benefit for the community as a whole - newcomers and established families.  


Moyeen


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Incandescent.



I know.

We can all tell!

Why don't you go for a relaxing drink in the Brixton Bar Grill - after all it is not that more expensive, apparently, than the Albert?

(And you won't have to say here that you liked it in spite of yourself either!  )


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 28, 2004)

Oh - Maxims and Interludes - something for everybody there.
Far better than quoting scripture  




			
				 f w nietzsche said:
			
		

> To close your ears to even the best counter‑argument once the decision has been taken: sign of a strong character.   Thus an occasional will to stupidity.






			
				 f w nietzsche said:
			
		

> He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.






			
				 f w nietzsche said:
			
		

> One begins to mistrust very clever people when they become embarrassed.


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

moyeen said:
			
		

> I can't say whether I like BBG as it was closed on the one time the missus and I tried to go there.  But I'd like to go just to see what it is like.



Ha! 

You weakling! 

I know a man in Brixton who has no need to go there to know what it is like!

Don't I, Anna Key?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2004)

lang rabbie - 

one of yr quotes seems to have gone awry.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

"Go thy to Fanta? Take thy whip!" 
Nietzsche, Zarathustra (179)


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

pooka said:
			
		

> Anna, your fluent familiarity with the foibles and mores of whole class of people you purport to despise is just a tad worrying


I don't despise anyone. Honest. Not even Fanta. 

Anyone who likes the Beehive can't be all bad. I simply want to help him become less confused.


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> I don't despise anyone. Honest. Not even Fanta.
> 
> Anyone who likes the Beehive can't be all bad. I simply want to help him become less confused.



I reckon you're probably not that daft either!

I'm thinking of giving this BBG place a visit this weekend.

*To. Find. Out. What. It. Is. Like.*

Fancy joining me Anna Key?

Then we could continue this with some experience of the place and informed opinions!

Wouldn't that be neat?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> I reckon you're probably not that daft either!



Bless.



			
				fanta said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of giving this BBG place a visit this weekend.


Traitor! Running Dog! Lackey!



			
				fanta said:
			
		

> *To. Find. Out. What. It. Is. Like.*


I. Already. Know. What. It's. Like. I've looked through the window. And read Comrade Sophie's posts.



			
				fanta said:
			
		

> Fancy joining me Anna Key?


Uhhhh... Ummm... Ahhhhhh... Ohhooo <Whispers> *Yes.*



			
				fanta said:
			
		

> Then we could continue this with some experience of the place and informed opinions!


Excellent.



			
				fanta said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be neat?


Yes. 

Will PM closer to the time. Just don't tell anyone. OK?


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> I reckon you're probably not that daft either!
> 
> I'm thinking of giving this BBG place a visit this weekend.
> 
> ...



AK has more than adequately despatched you on this point. Let it go. If quack on about it any more people will think you are a duck.

I can't make it to the BBG this weekend, cos I'm off to check out a bare knuckle boxing tournament, an illegal dog fight, and a strip club with a wet t-shirt night - all in the interests of research.


----------



## moyeen (Apr 28, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> I can't make it to the BBG this weekend, cos I'm off to check out a bare knuckle boxing tournament, an illegal dog fight, and a strip club with a wet t-shirt night - all in the interests of research.




If AK's going to BBG, can I come with you?


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Fancy joining me Anna Key?


But only on condition we can go to the Beehive afterwards. I'll need a stiff drink in normal surroundings after mixing with Brixton's 'top people.'

Perhaps Comrade Sophie will chauffeur us to the Beehive in 'Freddie?'


----------



## fanta (Apr 28, 2004)

isvicthere? said:
			
		

> AK has more than adequately despatched you on this point. Let it go. If quack on about it any more people will think you are a duck.
> 
> I can't make it to the BBG this weekend, cos I'm off to check out a bare knuckle boxing tournament, an illegal dog fight, and a strip club with a wet t-shirt night - all in the interests of research.



You're just sore coz I didn't invite you!

Okay you can come too!

Anna Key - okay. We'll just stay for a couple and retire to the Beehive if it really is too much to bear!


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 28, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Anna Key - okay. We'll just stay for a couple and retire to the Beehive if it really is too much to bear!


Deal.

I'm getting quite excited.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 28, 2004)

moyeen said:
			
		

> I should 'fess up here and say that PM and myself went to school together.
> 
> I can't say whether I like BBG as it was closed on the one time the missus and I tried to go there.  But I'd like to go just to see what it is like.  I've been to the Atlantic a few times but prefer The Lounge.    I don't think I am any cleverer than anyone else and certainly am not looking to win an "intellectual" (or any other) argument.  I like these boards - they are interesting and often thought provoking.
> 
> ...



That's pretty much what I think (in my not very bright way, gee thanks fanta. LOL). I just want other interests than those of the better off to matter too. And for some to be aware of their advantages.



So who pushed Sophie down the escalator then!  And why choose her I wonder?


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2004)

I can't say that I've warmed to the ambiance generated from its street presence, but I'd definitely be interested in taking a look at the BBG, if only to research a review for the Brixton Pub and Bar Guide on this site.

Apparently, my guide has become quite influential (the BBC link to it) so maybe I should forewarn the BBG in the hope of being bribed with free cocktails all night long?


----------



## Orangesanlemons (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm not sure I want to become embroiled in this argument, but...
They've got a pretty decent chef involved at the BBG, and it sounds like they're trying to a) keep the food prices down as far as possible, and b) use the best ingredients they can. Worth a go at least?
Can't speak for the wet side, but I'm assuming that's where they're trying to make money (£6 cocktails ahoy!) Eat the food, stick with the house red, then get drunk elsewhere.

The ambience is never going to be great at that site, but it's got to be better than Pangaea...


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 29, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> You're just sore coz I didn't invite you!
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks. But actually I'm off to see the mighty Dulwich Hamlet in their last home game of the season - then Sunday it's Carnival Twist at the Loughborough Hotel.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 29, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I should forewarn the BBG in the hope of being bribed with free cocktails all night long?


After a couple of "Slow Screws against the Wall' I'm sure Comrade Sophie will give you a lift home in 'Freddie.'


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 29, 2004)

Here's my tuppence

Was uptown on Saturday evening and got back to Brixton around 11.30 and fancied a pint after drinking £3.20 cans of Grolsch all night at the Metro (bands were fucking class A tho). 
So we thought we'd take a peek at the BBG and on turning into the street the blasts of cheesy DJ sounds and the people hanging around made it look a bit like Living. A look thru the window confirmed this and we went to SW9 instead which was a nice choice. Hadn't been there for a while but it was a nice chilled place to have a post-11pm pint.

Still I do fancy popping into the BBG sometime earlier in a midweek evening to sample the food.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> How the fuck do you know what it is like if your silly prejudice inhibits you from even going in and finding out for yourself?
> 
> For example, I've never been in the Bug Bar though I've walked passed it a few times - but I won't presume to pass judgement on it or affect that I know what it is like because that would be, er, well stupid!
> 
> ...



I can't afford to go in Fanta. 

BBG has windows and is small. I can see in and see the people. I can see all of it from outside - like A66 and Neon too - it's unnecessary to go in to "see" what they are like. I can see from outside they are nothing to me. (Bug Bar has no windows so not comparable in relation to judging from outside). I don't care about not going in because BBG oozes nothingness. These new places never seem to have any soul, perhaps it's pyschogeography? Even Lounge, one of the better new places, leaves me fairly cold.  As do many of the people in it. Just too middle of the road. That's how I feel. 

About prices - two coffees in Lounge = £5. Two coffees in the Pheonix = £1.20.  I prefer the latter, not just because it's more affordable but because I like the atmosphere better. I don't care about fine coffee - any will do. It's not important. Not £5 worth of important.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> About prices - two coffees in Lounge = £5.


Wrong. They're £1.80 each and I'm happy to pay extra because I'm not fan of cheap coffee - and I much prefer the vibe, the free mags/newspapers and the view from the Lounge.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Even Lounge, one of the better new places, leaves me fairly cold.  As do many of the people in it. Just too middle of the road.


Listen to you. What a judgemental snob you've turned into.

When you're dismissing the people in the Lounge out of hand, you're dismissing me and my friends. 

Are we "too middle of the road" for your sophisticated tastes then?


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

twisted said:
			
		

> So we thought we'd take a peek at the BBG and on turning into the street the blasts of cheesy DJ sounds and the people hanging around made it look a bit like Living. A look thru the window confirmed this



My views confirmed.

Sophie said:

"No I don't like aggresion, being called a cunt, being threatened with being
pushed down the escalators etc are not enjoyable instances for me...why do you get off on that kinda thing you little freak!?!"

I don't "get off" on others misfortune. But I suspect you to be the sort of stuck up bitch who gets called a cunt alot in Brixton because you act like one. I wonder if you think "Sex and the City" is cool? It's full of supercillious, shallow snobs. Your cup of tea?

People don't usually push someone on an escalator unless that person has been very rude first. Were you rude? Did you know you were even doing it?

I apologise if it really was a totally random, undeserved push. But I really reckon, judging by the your words and the way you say them here, that you had it coming.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I apologise if it really was a totally random, undeserved push. But I really reckon, judging by the your words and the way you say them here, that you had it coming.


I don't know if you're drunk or just trying to get a reaction, but think about what you're saying: no one _deserves_ to be pushed down an escalator just because they're being rude.

Since when did you start advocating potentially lethal violence to women for this?

I'm truly surprised and a little disappointed in you.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Listen to you. What a judgemental snob you've turned into.
> 
> When you're dismissing the people in the Lounge out of hand, you're dismissing me and my friends.
> 
> Are we "too middle of the road" for your sophisticated tastes then?



LOL - You and your "friends" taking over the place then?? 

Firstly, I've nothing against M (owner). Apologies to him if he reads this, but I can't help feeling my feelings. For what he's doing I think he's got it about right.  But I do find it too quiet and too smart/Gap-ish. Sorry. If you feel you or your mates are part of that then that's you and your mates taste isn't it. 

I don't feel comfortable in there for long.  Also, whether able to afford it or not, I just don't think two coffees - however good - are ever worth £5.

My feeling detached has nothing to do with being dismissive or being a snob. I've always been a very gregarious person, but ultimately a loner/outsider with only afew close mates.

And to be honest I've never felt like one of your close friends. I didn't think you did "close" with mates. I honestly thought that you didn't really have VERY close friends. Despite you saying we're mates I don't feel that you've ever really let me in or shown your soul to me. So we haven't become close. So I haven't wanted to be. I thought you did "girlfriend and aquaintances" and kept your emotional distance, like alot of people in tight-knit couples do.

This isn't meant to be a total diss to you Mike. Really. Just stuff. I feel differently about people and Brixton from you.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

I'm neither drunk nor trying to get a reaction (not consciously anyway - what goes on in my unconscious is difficult to say.... as I am, er, unconscious of it).

I can't decide whether "Sophie" deserved her push. She hasn't said exactly what she did. Nor have I heard from whoever pushed her. I have said what I suspect and why.

Perhaps she pushed someone out the way and they pushed back. Seems fair to me.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> BBG has windows and is small. I can see in and see the people. I can see all of it from outside - like A66 and Neon too - it's unnecessary to go in to "see" what they are like. I can see from outside they are nothing to me. (Bug Bar has no windows so not comparable in relation to judging from outside). I don't care about not going in because BBG oozes nothingness. These new places never seem to have any soul, perhaps it's pyschogeography? Even Lounge, one of the better new places, leaves me fairly cold.  As do many of the people in it. Just too middle of the road. That's how I feel.


]

Bah bitter humbug Hatboy -  but you do sound horribly judgemental and shallow on this thread. At a glance, you've taken a quick few looks at a crowd and have dismissed whole swathes of people off as too bland and middle class. Bit reductive isn't it? Particularly when not even a word's been spoken, not an opinion exchanged. How do you really know?

You're writing off people on your preconceptions and prejudices without a second chance. I suspect that your experience of the area would have been very different had people shown you the same scant respect and afforded you the same lack of individuality when you first arrived in Brixton. 

I don't know what point you're trying to make hb, but these intolerant, sloppy generalisations don't befit you. You're far more tolerant and less judgemental  - and all the better for it imo- in real life.


----------



## miss minnie (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy - you've been asked by the editor, over on the 'toff' thread, to withdraw a very defamatory personal remark you've made.  when will you comply with this request?

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1710346&postcount=140

don't worry, i'm not expecting an apology - i know you don't do apologies.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> For what he's doing I think he's got it about right.  But I do find it too quiet and too smart/Gap-ish. Sorry. If you feel you or your mates are part of that then that's you and your mates taste isn't it.


For the last time, two coffees are *not* £5. They are £3.60 which is entirely reasonable for a good coffee in pleasant surroundings. Seeing as I usually end up reading all the newspapers for free it works out even better value for me.

But I'm fed up reading your snidey, patronising, snobby it's 'too quiet and too smart/Gap-ish' and ' too middle of the road' insults.

I drink there. My friends drink there. And guess what? They're no more 'middle of the road' than you - in fact I find some of them a damn sight more interesting than you (sorry, but that's the fact of the matter).

I've had coffees there with local struggling artists, musicians, writers and dole boys, black, white and several shades inbetween. And they don't wear fucking Gap clothes. 

Who the fuck are you to make such sweeping, dismissive statements about people you've never met and know nothing about?

You're guilty of exhibiting the same prejudice, bigotry and intolerance that you (rightly) criticise others for, and I'm afraid that makes you a hypocrite.

No one's asking you to go the Lounge, neither does it threaten your favourite café - so why go out of your way to a launch such an unpleasant, dismissive attack on a local café owned by local people and frequented by locals?




			
				hatboy said:
			
		

> I feel differently about people and Brixton from you


Indeed you do. And I sincerely hope I never adopt your snobby, supercilious attitude to local businesses serving the community or start to dismiss locals out of hand just because of their choice of cafe.


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 30, 2004)

tarannau said:
			
		

> ]
> 
> 
> I don't know what point you're trying to make hb, but these intolerant, sloppy generalisations don't befit you. You're far more tolerant and less judgemental  - and all the better for it imo- in real life.




I've met you a couple of times hatboy, and you come across as an amiable guy who's pleasent to chat to. 
I don't understand why you're becoming more and more exteme here - you views at the moment are moving further & further away from the general concencious of this board by the day, you are becoming a poster that everybody just rolls their eyes at rather than takes seriously - like we used to.
Your posts are becoming a joke & you are starting to look a bit of a nutter.

Why don't you really just walk away for a couple of months? It's summer - go and chill out in the park and watch all sorts of different people from all sorts of different backgrounds all enjoying themselves together in that beautiful park. It might help remove a few bags of the chips your carrying around.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 30, 2004)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> you views at the moment are moving further & further away from the general concencious of this board by the day


But it would be dead boring if we all agreed, surely? 

And could you possibly describe this "general concencious?" So I can be sure of "fitting in." 

Seriously. I wouldn't want to annoy anyone by failing to observe the "concencious."


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> But it would be dead boring if we all agreed, surely?


Sure. But that doesn't excuse hatboy's intolerant, snobby, dismissive comments.

They're bang out of order.


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 30, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> But it would be dead boring if we all agreed, surely?
> 
> And could you possibly describe this "general concencious?" So I can be sure of "fitting in."
> 
> Seriously. I wouldn't want to annoy anyone by failing to observe the "concencious."


err, yeah, that's what intrigued me! since when have this forum - or any of the others - ever had a consensus, or even the sense of collectively striving for one? I don't DO consensus


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 30, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> But it would be dead boring if we all agreed, surely?
> 
> And could you possibly describe this "general concencious?" So I can be sure of "fitting in."
> 
> Seriously. I wouldn't want to annoy anyone by failing to observe the "concencious."




Oh do piss off Anna - You know perfectly well what I meant.

I don't think calling for bricks to be thrown through windows or for people to be pushed down escalators etc etc is the general concensious of most people here - do you?


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 30, 2004)

err, in as much as no reasonable person anywhere would want that, of course it ain't the 'concensious'. but beyond that, I'm well intrigued. what IS the consensus round here?


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 30, 2004)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> err, in as much as no reasonable person anywhere would want that, of course it ain't the 'concensious'. but beyond that, I'm well intrigued. what IS the consensus round here?



FFS! ok, ok , bad choice of phrase. Jesus!


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> I'm well intrigued. what IS the consensus round here?


Maybe it could be summed up as these two factions: 
new bars and change:* good!*
new bars and change: *bad!*


----------



## Pie 1 (Apr 30, 2004)

That's the one!


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 30, 2004)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Oh do piss off Anna - You know perfectly well what I meant.
> 
> I don't think calling for bricks to be thrown through windows or for people to be pushed down escalators etc etc is the general concensious of most people here - do you?


Freedom of speech, old boy, freedom of speech. 

And as I recall Hatboy didn't call for bricks to be thrown through windows. He said that where wealthy people flaunt their wealth in a poor area such events may occur. 

The two things

- calling for bricks to be thrown through windows

and

- where wealthy people flaunt their wealth in a poor area such events may occur

are different. So there.


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 30, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Maybe it could be summed up as these two factions:
> new bars and change:* good!*
> new bars and change: *bad!*



I do hope there's still room for my woolly liberal
new bars and change:* it depends...!*
faction on this board


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 30, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Maybe it could be summed up as these two factions:
> new bars and change:* good!*
> new bars and change: *bad!*


I belong to a third faction:

New inclusive bars and inclusive change *good!*
New exclusive bars and exclusive change *bad!*


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## Anna Key (Apr 30, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I do hope there's still room for my woolly liberal
> new bars and change:* it depends...!*
> faction on this board


Excellent! Always good to hear the Great Liberal Battle Cry:

What do we want?
_Gradual change!_
When do we want it?
_When appropriate!_


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## Ol Nick (Apr 30, 2004)

I disagree with lots of hatboy's views, but I'm sure there are lots of people who share them, but they don't post here.

Now I've never met him, we're not friends or anything, so we can't fall out over his less tolerant (and more personal) posts. But if I don't hear his side of the argument -- and I primarily mean his political and social argument -- here, I might not hear it anywhere else and I may as well go and chat to my upscale yuppie chums about house prices. Or to the local New Labour councillor for her super academic views on social exclusion.


----------



## Anna Key (Apr 30, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> But if I don't hear his side of the argument -- and I primarily mean his political and social argument -- here, I might not hear it anywhere else and I may as well go and chat to my upscale yuppie chums about house prices. Or to the local New Labour councillor for her super academic views on social exclusion.


Spot on. It's the old EP Thompson Segregation of Dissent argument.


> By the turn of the new century, dissent has not been merely segregated - it has been completely atomised. It is, of course, still expressed down the pub, round the dinner table, in Swampy's tree-house or even last year (hilariously) in the middle of the City of London. But whereas trade unions, the Labour Party branches, parts of the media and even part of the BBC had served as conduits (not always willingly) for the voices of unreason, now they serve only to churn out the same debilitating formulae of private over public, opportunity over equality, responsibility over rights and individualism over collectivism that constitute the Blairite consensus.


----------



## lang rabbie (Apr 30, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Excellent! Always good to hear the Great Liberal Battle Cry:


I've posted before that the joke was probably funny when told against the Fabians - the final line should of course be "In due course!"






Apparently, you can now buy the T-shirt


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## Ms T (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> People don't usually push someone on an escalator unless that person has been very rude first. Were you rude? Did you know you were even doing it?
> 
> I apologise if it really was a totally random, undeserved push. But I really reckon, judging by the your words and the way you say them here, that you had it coming.



I don't think that your smiley excuses this comment.  I'm certainly not rude, but I have been abused on occasion in Brixton and elsewhere. Did I have that coming to me as well?

And sometimes people in London do behave in aggressive ways for no reason at all.  I'm sure you know that as well as I do.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> Now I've never met him, we're not friends or anything, so we can't fall out over his less tolerant (and more personal) posts. But if I don't hear his side of the argument -- and I primarily mean his political and social argument -- here, I might not hear it anywhere else.


I've found some of hatboy's contribution's invaluable and enlightening.

But the less-tolerant, snobby, dismissive version who has returned to the boards is a much less interesting character.

So far he's arrogantly slagged off a large selection of people he's never met just because they frequent a popular local cafe he disapproves of ("too middle of the road") and suggested that a woman deserves to be "pushed down the escalators" just for being rude.

Inbetween that he's posted up a seriously defamatory post about a moderator (apology still awaited, hatboy) and generally done a good job of coming over as a prejudiced, bitter snob (_oh aren't they common in the Lounge: they're wearing Gap clothes. They're not as interesting as me_)

I do hope the original witty and erudite hatboy returns because I don't much care for the current incarnation.


----------



## Cioran (Apr 30, 2004)

Thought I'd add my t'pence worth,
i) The Lounge and Pheonix are two different vibes, can't really afford the lounge alot but its nice for a change, and does attract locals too.
ii) HB isn't moderating any more; surely one of the reasons was for him to express his own views...as long as its no more opinionated than other styles there isn't a problem imo. 
iii) That spitting thing, must say it does't bother me that much, unless it lands too close...or its actually at somebody. Quite often get a morning display of nose-clearing on my school run, amazing trajectory! I'm told its a common sight in parts of India, not been there meself like....

Living in a built up area invariably means being a bit close for comfort to others personal 'habits'...bit of tolerance is simply a must. I do think there are certain types of behaviour that most people find genuinely upsetting, but there is also alot to be said for not jumping to conclusions about what is unacceptable behaviour...ever hung around african guys haggling? To the untrained eye can look like blood is about to be spilled.  

Isn't it wierd tho...so often something kicks off on the street or bus and everyone seems to turn a blind eye, specially when its kids. Why is it people intervene when its queue jumping, spitting and such like but not when someone is genuinely at risk? Are they just too frightened?


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

If I feel detached and alien at the moment that doesn't make me a snob. Just alienated.  

Tarranau - you are a willing and happy cog in the machine.


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## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

Ol Nick said:
			
		

> I disagree with lots of hatboy's views, but I'm sure there are lots of people who share them, but they don't post here.
> 
> Now I've never met him, we're not friends or anything, so we can't fall out over his less tolerant (and more personal) posts. But if I don't hear his side of the argument -- and I primarily mean his political and social argument -- here, I might not hear it anywhere else and I may as well go and chat to my upscale yuppie chums about house prices. Or to the local New Labour councillor for her super academic views on social exclusion.



Thankyou Ol Nick.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> If I feel detached and alien at the moment that doesn't make me a snob. Just alienated.


----------



## Domski (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> If I feel detached and alien at the moment that doesn't make me a snob. Just alienated.



Hatboy - not that you know me, or that I've got anything to teach you, or that you'd listen - BUT FUCKING PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER MAN!

I think you've been called up on a few things that you've written when you're feeling just a bit reactionary and emotional that were out of order. As Anna says - you have every right to say how you feel, but in the real world it's sometimes a better idea to bite your tongue, otherwise real damage gets done.

Would it do you any harm to say that you might have gone a bit too far, rather than pining for sympathy? OR would that mean you're not being true to yourself?

Sometimes you've got to compromise - even when you're an uncompromising soul.

Seriously.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2004)

Fuck right off.


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## Domski (Apr 30, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Fuck right off.



LOL! That's the type of attitude that gets people pushed down the escalators. 

Believe it or not I thought I was trying to be helpful. I'd rather Brixton was full of open minded 'CYP's' than bitter closed minded boho's who sneer at anything that isn't like them hatboy, oh hang on - that's the type of thing that the people you profess to hate DO... I suggest you fuck right off and have a long hard word with yourself before you get consumed by the ridiculous contradicitions in everything you say


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## hatboy (May 1, 2004)

I don't sneer at things not like me. I like difference. That is why I am so vehemently against the blanding-out and sanitising of Brixton by the demands of a new, more conservative consumer. These people didn't have the guts to come here before the media told them it was cool. Now they want it all their way.  Their demands are oppressive to many of the very people that made Brixton the "vibrant and edgy" (cliche) place that they now want a slice of.

Immigrants, artists, gays, bohos seek out cheap areas and make them exciting and interesting. Eventually mainstream young professionals "discover" these areas like Columbus "discovered" America. They then proceed to overwhelm them with their own tastes - generally more conventional and less tolerant than the existing communities - while at the same time thinking they are doing the area a favour!

And before anyone asks yet again - I am not a born Londoner myself, but after 20 years in South London, 16 in Brixton, I am integrated into this community. I am also poor. I came here well before Brixton was being marketed to young professionals and have adapted to the neighbourhood rather than expecting it to change for me. I am not against change in Brixton, but I am against exclusive/excluding change and change that is in fact oppression disguised as improvement. Also, it's a loud area, I'm a loud person, I fit in. Some of these new posh types think it's going to be cool for them here, then find it too much, then start insisting everything is toned-down to their level. 

They're destroying the place, not making it. Their money makes them arrogant and they think others exist to serve them. I'm pleased to see that Brixton is to some extent resisting this process. 

This is why if you look like a rich bitch and walk around with your nose in the air you may find people are rude or aggressive to you. 

It's not them....... it's you!


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## oryx (May 1, 2004)

This thread has completely scrambled my brain - I just read some article mentioning The Atlantic Bar & Grill & thought Noooooooo - not another one opening up, there'll be some choice words about that on u75! - then realised it was that poncey posy place up West & not, as I had imagined, Atlantic Road SW9.   

(and I'm not even pissed......)


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## fanta (May 2, 2004)

Christonabike my poor head...


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## Pie 1 (May 2, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Immigrants, artists, gays, bohos seek out cheap areas and make them exciting and interesting. Eventually mainstream young professionals "discover" these areas like Columbus "discovered" America. They then proceed to overwhelm them with their own tastes - generally more conventional and less tolerant than the existing communities - while at the same time thinking they are doing the area a favour!
> 
> And before anyone asks yet again - I am not a born Londoner myself, but after 20 years in South London, 16 in Brixton, I am integrated into this community. I am also poor.........Blah, blah, blah




Now that hatboy has just literally taken the whole thing back to square bloody one again, shall we just leave it?


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## hatboy (May 2, 2004)

It's all true whether you like it or not.


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## lang rabbie (May 2, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Christonabike my poor head...



Is this as a result of "mystery shopping" at BBG last night?  
Should we take it as evidence that the £6 cocktails are value for money?


----------



## oryx (May 2, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Immigrants, artists, gays, bohos seek out cheap areas and make them exciting and interesting. Eventually mainstream young professionals "discover" these areas like Columbus "discovered" America. They then proceed to overwhelm them with their own tastes - generally more conventional and less tolerant than the existing communities - while at the same time thinking they are doing the area a favour!



I don't always agree with everything Hatboy says (I do agree with his views about "blanding out" though this is very much a London thing, maybe even a national thing, & definitely not just a Brixton thing) but this (quote above) is as good a precis of gentrification as you will get, anywhere. Totally bloody true.


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## hatboy (May 3, 2004)

Googling "gentrification" I find some scarily familiar stories from America. This could be about here:

"San Francisco’s mostly Latino Mission neighborhood has long been a mix of working-class and poor people, as well as young white bohemians. Spanish was the primary language spoken there. Now, as one activist describes it, the Mission is "the epicenter of trendy martini bars, high-priced restaurants and vintage clothing boutiques." It has suffered the city’s highest number of evictions, with Latinos and seniors on fixed incomes hit especially hard. Moreover, the neighborhood has become the center of an intense drug trade catering mostly to young whites".

"Low-income artists often unintentionally form the bridge from the original low-income community to the yuppies. "Artists like certain kinds of buildings, big spaces and lofts with stimulating architecture," says Gonzalez. "They bring in galleries, cafes, rock clubs and a certain night life, which attracts the gentrifiers." Gonzalez says that at a certain point he thinks the loft and studio market will become saturated—"How many yuppies can there be?" He also thinks the displacement that occurs with gentrification isn’t a wholly unnatural process. With the deindustrialization of inner cities, many working-class people actually have jobs farther out in the suburbs and for that reason would leave their central neighborhoods anyway. The elderly are the true victims of gentrification, he notes. They are quickly displaced when property values go up. Even if they own homes, their meager fixed incomes may prevent them from affording increased property taxes. Suddenly they find themselves thrown into unfamiliar neighborhoods, cut off from their social support systems, and often far from medical facilities and shopping."

More:

http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featlydersen_7.shtml


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## hatboy (May 3, 2004)

And this one IS about here. Although some of their info is incorrect. Howes hasn't been a shop for as long as I can remember. In fact, most of upper Atlantic, with it's one-off variety of shops - leaving aside A66/Neon - is a regeneration success in my view. And Brixton Station Arcade is due to return.

However, their general view about expensive flats, small traders, etc still totally stands.

http://www.cactusnetwork.org.uk/syndicate.htm

Who is behind "Syndicate" ?


----------



## fanta (May 4, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> Is this as a result of "mystery shopping" at BBG last night?
> Should we take it as evidence that the £6 cocktails are value for money?



Er no! Didn't actually get round to seeing what the place is like as I was too busy having a great time in the Beehive with Anna Key before ending up bumping into IntoStella, Gramsci, Editor, Fenian & co in the Albert.


----------



## brixton old man (May 4, 2004)

well HB if thats the case ..................why dont you fuck off and find a poor area that you can feel comfortable in ? norbury is good ! there's also a brixton is Oz. You are a narrow minded poof who has nothing to do in life except go to the same old hangouts , slag off the same type of people and sit in front of your PC - you seem very bitter. Brixton has changed and will continue to do so . Its called development - why dont u think of something more interesting to talk about ? why dont you go and work/live in substation south and be a pratt in a big hat like you used to be at the dogstar and STOP boring us ! your views are narrow , outdated and largely nonsense - views of a minority going down the plughole ; skint bitter arsebandit ! i'm sure my membership will be deleted for saying all this but it will be certainly worth it. goodbye you loser. Bring on the capatilists to brixton and get rid of smelly types like you !!!!!


----------



## Anna Key (May 4, 2004)

brixton old man said:
			
		

> well HB if thats the case ..................why dont you fuck off and find a poor area that you can feel comfortable in ? norbury is good ! there's also a brixton is Oz. You are a narrow minded poof who has nothing to do in life except go to the same old hangouts , slag off the same type of people and sit in front of your PC - you seem very bitter. Brixton has changed and will continue to do so . Its called development - why dont u think of something more interesting to talk about ? why dont you go and work/live in substation south and be a pratt in a big hat like you used to be at the dogstar and STOP boring us ! your views are narrow , outdated and largely nonsense - views of a minority going down the plughole ; skint bitter arsebandit ! i'm sure my membership will be deleted for saying all this but it will be certainly worth it. goodbye you loser. Bring on the capatilists to brixton and get rid of smelly types like you !!!!!


That's the best argument I've seen for

(a) supporting Hatboy up to the hilt; and
(b) demanding his return as moderator of the Brixton Forum.

Well done!


----------



## pooka (May 4, 2004)

It's the best argument for binning that foul mouthed post and sending brixtonoldman on his way, more like.


----------



## Anna Key (May 4, 2004)

brixton old man said:
			
		

> i'm sure my membership will be deleted for saying all this but it will be certainly worth it. goodbye you loser. Bring on the capatilists to brixton and get rid of smelly types like you !!!!!


*Please do not ban this person.*


> For Lenin... the role of useful idiot was the role to be played  primarily by simpleminded bourgeois dupes who unwittingly aided the  movement towards the proletarian revolution, a revolution utterly  antipathetic to the ideals and aspiration of the simpleminded bourgeois dupes. But the concept is of general political utility. *The useful idiot is any person who acts in a way which unwittingly promotes political interests which are opposed to his own political ideals. *
> 
> Source


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

Brixtonoldman - Your post actually sounds quite alot nastier than many of my nastiest - vicious and homophobic. 

I was just about to put up some info on the successful regeneration of Angell Town, so as to counteract some of my more depressing themes on here. But, the discussion on genuine inclusive regeneration (see Angell Town thread) versus excluding gentrification is real. Many people (people nothing like me, neither bitter nor arsebandits, LOL) feel similar.

You've obviously met me, tho only very superficially. I'd agree that sometimes drinking can make me a bit of a prat (it's spelt with one t you know) - one of the reasons for my hardly drinking now. 

But, those are the attitudes of someone gay-hating and resentful of people who are outgoing or dress-up.... and, ahem, are popular. If you did know me properly you'd know that I'm actually quite a kind person. But sometimes problems and unhappiness about life not working out as I hoped get me down, yes.

And inequity in Brixton gets me down and makes me angry - but I think that is completely justifiable.

Can't say fairer than that. Perhaps you'd like to tell me who you are. Seeing as you think you know me?


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

Could the moderators keep an eye on this please and remove anything that is prejudiced and personal to me from brixtonoldman's posts and others (including mine) that repeat the comments. You can leave this so far if you like. I can take it as well as dish it...

.... and I'm sure some here will enjoy the above!     

Remember tho, the homophobia thing is well nasty - nastier than anything I say here and, Mike, it is very much against the posting rules.


----------



## fanta (May 4, 2004)

brixton old man said:
			
		

> well HB if thats the case ..................why dont you fuck off and find a poor area that you can feel comfortable in ? norbury is good ! there's also a brixton is Oz. You are a narrow minded poof who has nothing to do in life except go to the same old hangouts , slag off the same type of people and sit in front of your PC - you seem very bitter. Brixton has changed and will continue to do so . Its called development - why dont u think of something more interesting to talk about ? why dont you go and work/live in substation south and be a pratt in a big hat like you used to be at the dogstar and STOP boring us ! your views are narrow , outdated and largely nonsense - views of a minority going down the plughole ; skint bitter arsebandit ! i'm sure my membership will be deleted for saying all this but it will be certainly worth it. goodbye you loser. Bring on the capatilists to brixton and get rid of smelly types like you !!!!!



You're well out of order and making yourself sound daft and nasty!


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

How about "skint, bitter arsebandit" as the sub-title under my user-name?  I like it almost as much as "community pest" or "self-important local faggot".


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

PS brixtonoldman - If I was a minted, sweet arsebandit would that be OK?


----------



## hendo (May 4, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> *Please do not ban this person.*



No, please do.


----------



## Belushi (May 4, 2004)

hendo said:
			
		

> No, please do.



And let us all know his email address.


----------



## editor (May 4, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Could the moderators keep an eye on this please and remove anything that is prejudiced and personal to me from brixtonoldman's posts and others (including mine) that repeat the comments. You can leave this so far if you like. I can take it as well as dish it...
> 
> .... and I'm sure some here will enjoy the above!
> 
> Remember tho, the homophobia thing is well nasty - nastier than anything I say here and, Mike, it is very much against the posting rules.


Happy to oblige.

Now will you withdraw your prejudiced and personal comments about miss minnie which were also _very much _ against the posting rules?


----------



## editor (May 4, 2004)

brixton old man said:
			
		

> why dont you fuck off .... narrow minded poof ....skint bitter arsebandit


One week ban coming right up!


----------



## hendo (May 4, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> This is why if you look like a rich bitch and walk around with your nose in the air you may find people are rude or aggressive to you.
> 
> It's not them....... it's you!



Would this be a reply to Miss T's post in which she pulled you up for suggesting that its OK to push people down escalators, Hatboy?

I sometimes find it difficult to reconcile the charming man I've met to the appalling things he writes.


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

Mike - consider them withdrawn. Feel free to delete. 

Hendo - No, it was anger directed at "sophie" who, I don't mince words, gave the impression of regarding ordinary Brixtoners as beneath her.  Not aimed at Miss T.

People get very angry when talked down to or looked down at. If some react aggressively to this it doesn't surprise me. There is quite alot of resentment round here about some of the posher, snobby types who look down their noses and jump out their skins every time a black man* says "good morning" !!!

*this refers to incidents related to me by various black friends, tho not to the person some of you probably think and will have seen me with.  And it can also be applied to other people who are viewed with suspicion because they are perceived by the conservative as weird, big, loud or unconventional.


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

Weird, big, loud or unconventional? - mm - all things that were acceptable in Brixton.  But are they still?


----------



## fanta (May 4, 2004)

I quite like a bit of weirdness now and again.


----------



## Domski (May 4, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Weird, big, loud or unconventional? - mm - all things that were acceptable in Brixton.  But are they still?



I think you'll find the answer to that is YES. Any chance of a few recent examples where the wierd, big, loud or unconventional have been discriminated against in this so called 'new' Brixton excluding Living Bar's disgraceful door policy?


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

I can't start talking about people who wouldn't want to be mentioned here. But there are often street incidents where this happens more than it used to.


----------



## Anna Key (May 4, 2004)

Domski said:
			
		

> Any chance of a few recent examples where the wierd, big, loud or unconventional have been discriminated against in this so called 'new' Brixton excluding Living Bar's disgraceful door policy?


Yes. 

A friend with a green Mohican was denied entry to Brixton Bar and Grill recently. 

I'm not going to name him but will tell him I've written this in case he wants to add anything.

Moral of the story? 

Either

- Don't have a green Mohican 

Or

- Don't, under any circumstances, enter the Brixton Bar and Grill until they 

(a) issue a public statement that persons with green Mohicans are welcome; and

(b) apologise for their excluding, snobby, divisive, Mrs Bucket, anti-diversity, anti-tolerance, anti-Brixton behaviour.

Expect such a statement shortly:


----------



## editor (May 4, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> A friend with a green Mohican was denied entry to Brixton Bar and Grill recently.


Err, but was that the reason that he was denied entry?

He could have been blind drunk, obnoxious, covered in filth or carrying a bucketload of skunks for all I know.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> People get very angry when talked down to or looked down at. If some react aggressively to this it doesn't surprise me. There is quite alot of resentment round here about some of the posher, snobby types who look down their noses and jump out their skins every time a black man* says "good morning" !!!




I saw an example of this in Walthamstow just last week. 
A woman had her kid in a little play area near the market, and was sitting watching.... my son went in to retrieve my niece, who was pissing around and wouldn't come back.
I went in after him and he'd started talking with a black kid who was about his age, who had the same mobile phone as him.

He gave his phone to the kid to have a look at and this stuck-up fucking twat sticks her nose in and goes "Is that your son? Be careful that he doesn't get his phone stolen."

I just told her to fuck off.


----------



## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

A bucket load of "skunk, skunk, skunk" you mean Mike.  

Thanks for bothering to mention that Stobart. See I'm not imagining this stuff doubters!

I think it is particularly upsetting for children and young adults to hear those views. That sort of thing gradually destroys people's self-belief.  You feel confused and hurt - why me, what have I done? Maybe I am a piece of worthless crap? If that's what they think of me maybe I should behave like scum?  To some extent I grew up with same thing thru homophobia.


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## miss minnie (May 4, 2004)

Anna Key said:
			
		

> A friend with a green Mohican was denied entry to Brixton Bar and Grill recently.


to be fair, the doorman said that they weren't open, which could mean "no mate you're not our type" or it could mean that it was a private party.  i'm reserving judgement on this one.


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## Domski (May 4, 2004)

If he was denied entry for _just_ having a green mohican then that's shit.

It does beg the question though... would you deem that torture garden (often held at Mass) are similarly out of order for not allowing in people wearing normal clothes?

I was also given a long lecture by the doorman at Trade a while ago that 'this is a gay club etc etc' implying that because I didn't look gay, I basically wasn't all that welcome... after a long conversation and telling him that I was 'going for the music and atmosphere', he let me in... 

what exactly does this say about those attitudes? I'm afraid it's a grim reality of this world that there is a certain level of discrimination that occurs in the world of the 'club/bar' and basically, we have to live with it.

I personally think it sucks but I'm afraid it happens... even in Brixton - 'old' and 'new'....


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## Anna Key (May 4, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, but was that the reason that he was denied entry?
> 
> He could have been blind drunk, obnoxious, covered in filth or carrying a bucketload of skunks for all I know.


He can speak for himself, but as far as I know he was a bit hot and tired. He'd been working and fancied a drink with his girlfriend.

Some snobby, exluding, BBG waiter showed them the door so they went round the lounge, where they enjoyed a meal in non-excluding surroundings.

It's great this sort of anti-Brixton behaviour can be exposed on a local community bulletin board.


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## hatboy (May 4, 2004)

Lounge is alright really isn't it? I was a bit over-the-top about that!   

Sorry - mental health, etc.


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## Anna Key (May 4, 2004)

Domski said:
			
		

> I'm afraid it's a grim reality of this world that there is a certain level of discrimination that occurs in the world of the 'club/bar' and basically, we have to live with it.


No we don't. We - or some of us - pursue them politically and through the courts until they behave themselves.

If you "live with it," as you suggest, it simply encourages them, and others, to behave like shits.


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## Anna Key (May 4, 2004)

miss minnie said:
			
		

> to be fair, the doorman said...


It was a waiter. I had this confirmed from the 'horse's mouth.'


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## sophie (May 5, 2004)

hatboy, in response;
"it was anger directed at "sophie" who, I don't mince words, gave the impression of regarding ordinary Brixtoners as beneath her."

Yes you have certainly directed an unhealthy amount of anger towards me so far as insinuating that I deserve to suffer aggravated bodily harm
(and fyi I wasn't rude to anyone I merely stated it wasn't fair to jump the queue and I wasn't actually pushed but threatened, I understand
the government run literacy classes free of charge, perhaps you should attend as you basic comprehension skills are appalling).

I find ordinary Brixtoners beneath me do I, fascinating I wonder how you figure that one out? I don't think I've ever considered anyone
beneath me what a dreadful term, just because I disapprove of some peoples manners when they conduct themselves in public doesn't mean
I therefore consider them a lesser human being. Jesus, just cause I have a job, am white and have a grammar school education I become some fascist 
"rich bitch" who "walk(s) around with (my) nose in the air". 

For one who wants an inclusive society in Brixton this seems to be very much at the exclusion of anyone who dosen't have excalty the same wants as you.

I will not justify myself to you suffice to say you have me completely wrong.


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## Streathamite (May 5, 2004)

sophie, I hate to nitpick here, but YOU'RE criticising HATBOY'S literacy and written comprehensibility???
fuck me....


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## fanta (May 5, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> I understand the government run literacy classes free of charge, perhaps you should attend as you basic comprehension skills are appalling



Shouldn't that be a 'your' basic comprehension skills... rather than a 'you' basic comprehension skills...?

Oh dear Sophie, how silly!


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## Ms T (May 5, 2004)

Can someone tell me when it's safe to come out?


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## hatboy (May 5, 2004)

Be braver.


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## twistedAM (May 5, 2004)

Ms T said:
			
		

> Can someone tell me when it's safe to come out?



Come out tonight and down £6 cocktails made by the best mixologist in Brixton and then dance the night away to some soundz from a cool DJ

Oops I can't make it...gonna see The Fucks play and down £2.40 pints of cider


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## Anna Key (May 5, 2004)

sophie said:
			
		

> you have me completely wrong.


Does that mean our trip to Cuba is off?


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