# Re-opening Schools?



## ska invita (May 14, 2020)

From bits I've picked up today i hear there is a plan to open Primary schools on 1st June? Is that correct?

Trade unions are against it








						'Not safe to reopen schools,' warn teachers' unions
					

Department for Education's own scientist suggests virus might not spread less among children.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I hear that parts of the right are attacking teachers for not wanting to go back - I havent see this with my own eyes.

I saw this in a Reel News email:

"Angry and frightened parents are planning to boycott plans to reopen schools in the UK on June 1. Concern is growing over the jaw-dropping announcement from the government, with teachers and parents pointing out the impossibility of social distancing in schools. On top of that, 43 teachers have already died up to April 20th from teaching children of key workers in much emptier schools.

There is clearly no plan whatsoever - and no answer to the "Five tests" that the National Education Union has put forward. Healthworkers have also joined the outcry against this deeply irresponsible decision, saying it will be "disastrous" to end the lockdown this early.

So now parents are refusing to send their children back to school, and have called a zoom meeting tomorrow (Thursday May 14th) at 8:15pm to get organised. Everyone welcome, whether you're a parent, a member of staff in a school or a member of the community - schools reopening will directly endanger everyone's health.

Join the Facebook event here: 


Spoiler







Register here: Welcome! You are invited to join a meeting: No going back before its safe. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the meeting.
And sign the NEU petition here: Open schools only when it is safe


---

Ive also heard that its voluntary for parents to send their kids back?

Sorry lots of half heard things, can anyone add more? Curious what teachers and parents have heard.


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## Steel Icarus (May 14, 2020)

Parents won't be fined for keeping kids off, and schools won't be sanctioned for low attendance figures.

ETA source: letter home from daughter's Academy Trust, plus education grapevine - me and Mrs SI both in FE


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## SpookyFrank (May 14, 2020)

It'll be years one and six back at primary schools, with classes of 15 each isolated from the rest of the school.


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## Funky_monks (May 14, 2020)

Seems reasonably bonkers to me. Currently there's no question of us going back until september (uni). Although children don't seem to suffer as badly with COVID, there is no doubt that they can transmit it.


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## Thora (May 14, 2020)

It's about 50/50 sending back and waiting from chat on class parents group.  But, lots of the ones who want to wait are SAHM so obviously a lot easier.

I know a lot of key worker parents whose children have been attending throughout too.


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## Thora (May 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It'll be years one and six back at primary schools, with classes of 15 each isolated from the rest of the school.


Nursery, Reception as well.


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## kebabking (May 14, 2020)

Yup, entirely voluntary. 

Mrs K - junior school SENCO - reckons she'll be in two days a week or so. Take up at the kids school (via the FB messenger group) looks to be about 35% at absolute maximum.


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## nogojones (May 14, 2020)

Speaking to a teacher friend. She says they can fuck right off. And as far as she sees the union is saying the same


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## baldrick (May 14, 2020)

The place where I'm based is making plans to bring Y10 and 12 back on a very part time basis - 6ish hours a week, in small cohorts.

On the face of it there's not much we can provide on 6 hours a week that we can't do via Zoom or edmodo. But a number of our kids don't have access to a computer at home, lots are vulnerable in different ways, and if we can do it safely I think the contact with peers and their teachers will be so valuable.

Safety is a big thing though, and it remains to be seen whether the trust can satisfy staff that the plans will work. I also don't know how many students will likely attend. I suspect the ones we want to see are the ones less likely to come   

My job can be done from home so I'm not worried in that respect myself.


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## Thora (May 14, 2020)

The planning guidance released today for primary schools says that daily or weekly rotas for attendance shouldn't be used - which seems odd, as this is how many other countries are managing it.

Just in practical terms, my children's infant school has 6 classrooms, a nursery, library, club room, nurture room and a meeting room (so probably more 'spare' rooms than most schools!).  On 1st June they're going to need two nursery classrooms, three reception classrooms and four Year 1 classrooms, plus a room for key worker kids, so will just fit.  In July they'll need 4 more rooms for Year 2, and in September possibly another reception classroom and a 2 year old room.  There aren't even rooms in the building for every class of max 15 children to have a classroom.


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## weepiper (May 14, 2020)

Noise in Scotland is that our kids won't be going back til the start of the new school year at the earliest.


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## Sweet FA (May 14, 2020)

I work with Y6 (in England). Sending EY/Y1 back isn't workable in any way re: keeping them clean/apart. More manageable in Y6 maybe. The unions are saying don't engage with any planning for June 1 yet.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 14, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Noise in Scotland is that our kids won't be going back til the start of the new school year at the earliest.



When does the Scottish new year start, I understand it is not quite the same as the English & Welsh?

Follow up question, why is there a difference?


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## kebabking (May 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When does the Scottish new year start, I understand it is not quite the same as the English & Welsh?
> 
> Follow up question, why is there a difference?



middle of august - usually break up late june.

interestingly, well - kind of - its different in northern England as well. they break up a bit (week or so?) earlier than us filthy southerners, and go back a bit earlier - but not as early as in Scotlandshire.


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## ska invita (May 14, 2020)

First big trade union fight here....RMT are in negotiations supposedly, see what the outcome is there next week








						Teachers can legally refuse to return over health risk, says union
					

Exclusive: NASUWT threatens legal action to defend teachers against forced restart on 1 June




					www.theguardian.com
				




Teachers can legally refuse to return when schools reopen unless they get the same protections against coronavirus as other frontline staff, one of the UK’s leading teaching unions has warned.

In a letter to local authorities seen by the Guardian, the 300,000-strong NASUWT threatens to invoke legal action to defend teachers against being forced back into schools on 1 June because of the risk to their health.

The union’s letter marks a significant hardening against the government’s push to reopen primary schools in England from 1 June. It comes as one academy chain says it is aiming to invite pupils back on that date.

Signed by the NASUWT’s general secretary, Patrick Roach, the union threatens to delay that start date by forcing the government and local authorities to consider their legal obligations as a new obstacle to reopening.


The union says it has “fundamental concerns” about guidance issued by the government this week, saying it was inconsistent with guidance given to other workplaces, including care homes and the NHS.

“Stringent guidance has been issued for the NHS, for care homes and for employers across the UK. It is unacceptable that this has not been the case for schools,” it says.

“The NASUWT believes that teachers and other school staff have the right to the same consideration and protections, and to be confident that their health and welfare, as well as that of pupils, is at the heart of any planning for wider opening.”

The union said it had to warn local authorities as employers, and the government, that they risked legal action for “breach of duty of care and personal injury due to foreseeable risk, and any other legal recourse available” if efforts were made to force teachers into classrooms during the epidemic.

“The NASUWT recognises that schools and employers have been placed in a situation where the wrong decision will result in people becoming seriously ill and dying, and will therefore appreciate that there can be no compromise on health and safety.

“If this means that schools are unable to open safely before September, because they are unable to make arrangements to safeguard their staff and pupils, then that position must be accepted,” Roach said.


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## planetgeli (May 14, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Noise in Scotland is that our kids won't be going back til the start of the new school year at the earliest.



Yep. Anglocentric thread this.

Wales definitely not back in June.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 14, 2020)

kebabking said:


> middle of august - usually break up late june.
> 
> interestingly, well - kind of - its different in northern England as well. they break up a bit (week or so?) earlier than us filthy southerners, and go back a bit earlier - but not as early as in Scotlandshire.



Savages.


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## weepiper (May 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When does the Scottish new year start, I understand it is not quite the same as the English & Welsh?
> 
> Follow up question, why is there a difference?





kebabking said:


> middle of august - usually break up late june.
> 
> interestingly, well - kind of - its different in northern England as well. they break up a bit (week or so?) earlier than us filthy southerners, and go back a bit earlier - but not as early as in Scotlandshire.


Generally break up for the summer last Friday in June and go back around the 18th of August.
I don't know why they're different tbh. Some sort of agricultural reason probably. But June/July generally have much nicer weather in Scotland than August does, as anyone who's been to the Edinburgh Festival will attest.


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## comrade spurski (May 14, 2020)

I work in a primary school for students with social, emotional and mental health issues.
Students have a wide range of behaviour issues including violence and spitting.

I am currently working in a local park with one of our kids to support him and his family and another in a school where we borrowed a class room.

There are sound reasons to try and get some children into school but there are an awful lot of questions that need asking and answering and a lot of staff, children and families who need reassuring.


Social distancing in schools is going to be a near impossibility.
In primary schools most children are brought and collected by adults so how will that work?
What about school staff with vulnerable family members?
What about school staff who sre vulnerable themselves.
How do you sterilise the equipment every day?
What do you do about children who display violent or aggressive behaviour to others?
Can you work with children while wearing face masks?
What about children who need to see facial expressions or need to lip read to understand things?
These are only some issues.

I do not think any one has all the answers so dialogue is needed but from the ratcheting up of the anti union rhetoric the media snd some politicians are desperate to simply csll school staff lazy. 

There are demands that we should work through the summer holidays which ignores the fact that the summer holiday for many school staff is unpaid leave. Many of us are paid for 38 teaching weeks, 1 inset week (spread out over the year), and approx 7 weeks of annual leave and bank holidays which totals 46 weeks. Our pay for this 46 weeks is divided 12 so we get paid the same amount each month.
As an example, I am contracted for 32.5 hrs per week for 46 weeks a year but get paid for 28.75 hrs per week.

The working over the summer holidays also ignores that lots if not all staff have worked in one way or another over the past 7 weeks.

Sorry for such a rambling post but the bollocks being chatted about us in the media is really out of line ... to be expected but irritating non the less!


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## Puddy_Tat (May 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Follow up question, why is there a difference?





kebabking said:


> interestingly, well - kind of - its different in northern England as well. they break up a bit (week or so?) earlier than us filthy southerners, and go back a bit earlier - but not as early as in Scotlandshire.





weepiper said:


> Some sort of agricultural reason probably.



my understanding is that the long summer holiday was arranged to coincide with the hay-making season and in the end the authorities decided it would be easier to have it as the official holiday because so many kids buggered off anyway.

would that traditionally have happened a bit earlier in the summer further north?

don't remember hay-making being an opportunity in the summer holidays in 1970s lewisham


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## bimble (May 15, 2020)

Ffs . This is crazy now, a notion from proper cult loonyland .


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## beesonthewhatnow (May 15, 2020)

Fucking capitalist profit at all costs death cult.


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

bimble said:


> Ffs . This is crazy now, a notion from proper cult loonyland .
> View attachment 212660




C19 over the next year is going to throw up massive fights between unions and back to work governments - public probably have a lot of sympathy with workers in these circumstances ... people signing up to unions left right and centre... biggest unions battle since the miners strike coming?
Right wing press have a got a serious job to do here to undermine that movement


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## Fruitloop (May 15, 2020)

Always keen to speak for the silent majority


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Class consciousness and concern for those living in cramped housing breaks out at the Telegraph


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## gentlegreen (May 15, 2020)




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## gentlegreen (May 15, 2020)




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## Steel Icarus (May 15, 2020)

bimble said:


> Ffs . This is crazy now, a notion from proper cult loonyland .
> View attachment 212660


Even for them, that's unicycle-made-of-teacakes crazy


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## redsquirrel (May 15, 2020)

Oh well never mind, vote Labour 
David Blunkett Lambasts Teaching Unions Over Opposition To Schools Reopening


> Some Labour MPs such as Barry Sheerman have also criticised unions for their stance in recent days, and Blunkett let rip at shadow education secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey.
> 
> “It’s about an attitude of mind... about whether we can work together to do it or whether we can work against it. I advise both teachers and their representatives and my front bench to work together to actually find a way of gradually from June 1 getting children back into school,” he said.


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## Edie (May 15, 2020)

I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


Here are the NEUs 5 tests. Which are disproportionately fearful do you think?

*Our five tests*
We want to begin to reopen schools and colleges as soon as we can. But this needs to be safe for society, for children and their families and the staff who work in them.

We have these five tests which the Government should show will be met by reliable evidence, peer-reviewed science and transparent decision-making.

*Test 1 : Much lower numbers of Covid-19 cases*
The new case count must be much lower than it is now, with a sustained downward trend and confidence that new cases are known and counted promptly. And the Government must have extensive arrangements for testing and contact tracing to keep it that way.


*Test 2 : A national plan for social distancing*
The Government must have a national plan including parameters for both appropriate physical distancing and levels of social mixing in schools, as well as for appropriate PPE, which will be locally negotiated at school-by-school and local authority level.


*Test 3 : Testing, testing, testing!*
Comprehensive access to regular testing for children and staff to ensure our schools and colleges don’t become hot spots for Covid-19.


*Test 4 : Whole school strategy*
Protocols to be put in place to test a whole school or college when a case occurs and for isolation to be strictly followed.


*Test 5 : Protection for the vulnerable*
Vulnerable staff, and staff who live with vulnerable people, must work from home, fulfilling their professional duties to the extent that is possible. Plans must be specifically address the protection of vulnerable parents, grandparents and carers.


Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


second highest death toll in the world last time i checked


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## Steel Icarus (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


The fact that millions of people have stayed in for seven weeks including school kids and still over 50,000 people have died in the UK from C19 makes you think there's been an overreaction?


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## beesonthewhatnow (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


I think you... well, you need to look at some numbers.


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## gentlegreen (May 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> second highest death toll in the world last time i checked


And "we" had the advantage of seeing others ahead of us and still blew it.


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## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

In school last week, I worked out- If we are to keep the 2m distancing rule, it would mean that I could probably fit seven pupils in my classroom, if I, as the teacher, am also to benefit from the distancing. 
Nine, at best, if I'm not granted such security.


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## andysays (May 15, 2020)

S☼I said:


> The fact that millions of people have stayed in for seven weeks including school kids and still over 50,000 people have died in the UK from C19 makes you think there's been an overreaction?


But the needs of the economy must now take precedence.


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## Thora (May 15, 2020)

Is a 2m distance really going to make much difference if you are spending 6 hours in a room with them anyway?


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## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

Thora said:


> Is a 2m distance really going to make much difference if you are spending 6 hours in a room with them anyway?



Arguably not, but it's been so drummed into our heads. I'm secondary, so it would more likely be an hour, rather than the whole day. In theory, secondary pupils should be able to distance themselves better than primary aged pupils, but I have seen no evidence of that whatsoever, when I've been in to school recently.


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## kebabking (May 15, 2020)

andysays said:


> But the needs of the economy must now take precedence.



Simplistic, laughably so.

There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.

do you think that will have no impact on their already compromised life chances?

My wife, who is a junior school teacher and SENCO, is _frantic _about at least a dozen of the children in her school: they are almost all SEN, almost all on the 'at risk' register, and either live in conditions of significant depravation or _sub-optimal _parenting. She is desperate to get these children back into school, or anywhere safe where they will be fed, educated, looked after and have their needs attended to - one child with severe autism lives in what her headteacher calls 'a rape den' with a dozen or so randoms and a mother who's a heroin addict and prostitute. The child has almost certainly not had a hot meal since March, and may still be wearing her school uniform. The same one.

Most of these kids have not submitted one piece of work in two months, or had any contact with the school or specialist support services. 

If you think this issue is a simple black and white one with right one one side and profit on the other, you are as ignorant, as dogshit thick as some utter cunt in the _Mail _honking off about lazy teachers.


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...


How do you feel about the 5 tests from NEU. They seem essential to me.


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## andysays (May 15, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...


That's not what I think, I was parodying the views of another poster.

I am aware that there are negative consequences for children not being at school, but I don't believe those are the main reason schools are being instructed to reopen.


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## Steel Icarus (May 15, 2020)

Just to be pedantic lockdown to first week of September is five and a half months, over two months of which would have been at home anyway.


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## Edie (May 15, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...


Very well said. There’s this total black and white thinking about risk wrt covid, where somehow having a death rate that can have an actual daily confirmed Government figure placed on it completely overshadows perception of other risk.

Poverty kills. Domestic violence and child abuse results in deaths. Job losses are devastating. Economic collapse will undoubtably lead to loss of life.

The mortality in under 40s, even under 50s, from covid is very low. That needs to be recognised, and balanced against other real tangible risks of lockdown such as it is continuing.

It’s somewhat of a surprise to me that Unions (and the general thrust of argument on here) seems to be so short sighted of social inequality and poverty.


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## Edie (May 15, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Just to be pedantic lockdown to first week of September is five and a half months, over two months of which would have been at home anyway.


Unless there is a vaccine in September (low possibility), what do you think will have changed to make it safer in order to offset the very real damage to the economy that will undoubtedly occur by then?


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> Unless there is a vaccine in September (low possibility), what do you think will have changed to make it safer in order to offset the very real damage to the economy that will undoubtedly occur by then?


NEUs 5 tests introduced and all is well. Do you agree?


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## Steel Icarus (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> Unless there is a vaccine in September (low possibility), what do you think will have changed to make it safer in order to offset the very real damage to the economy that will undoubtedly occur by then?


I'm just concerned that a completely risky and unnecessary rush back to school is going to cause another spike in cases and lead to more avoidable illness and death.


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## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> It’s somewhat of a surprise to me that Unions (and the general thrust of argument on here) seems to be so short sighted of social inequality and poverty.



They are unions for teachers and they exist to protect those teachers who pay them to do so. The 5 union safety guidelines are about getting everybody back into school, to be learning again and away from this great digital divide, so arguably, the unions are addressing it but want safety for all.


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## spanglechick (May 15, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...


How do you make the end of March to the start of September a gap of 7 months?    I make it 5 and a half, tops. More than two months of which would have been the easter, half term and summer holidays.

I take your broader point, and honestly, my gut says "bring them all back in a fuck these half measures"... but then I have to let my brain have an opinion too.


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## flypanam (May 15, 2020)

My missus a teacher says as soon as the private schools go back, she’ll consider going back.


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Mattym said:


> They are unions for teachers and they exist to protect those teachers who pay them to do so. The 5 union safety guidelines are about getting everybody back into school, to be learning again and away from this great digital divide, so arguably, the unions are addressing it but want safety for all.


The 5 Tests could be introduced quickly Id expect, even by the 1st June isnt impossible...?


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## Sweet FA (May 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How do you feel about the 5 tests from NEU. They seem essential to me.


Me too. 

And


kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...


But

we can do both. We're really saying it's absolutely_ impossible_ to talk to and set eyes on our vulnerable children whilst keeping us all safe? I have children in not dissimilar situations to those you outline so I'm not totally ignorant of the challenges. I know your wife will have done the same and it's not perfect but we've done waved hellos from cars; calling family members; walking the dog round the estate etc etc. The children we really can't get to then it's next steps. That Mail headline really brought some divisions up today in the small group of 9 that were in my school which made me feel quite sad. 

Anyway lager dog walk.


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## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The 5 Tests could be introduced quickly Id  expect, even by the 1st June isnt impossible...?



Most of them could be, yes, but I suppose it's mainly down to number 1) and what the interpretation of 'much lower numbers of C19 cases' means. The government will have a completely different figure to the unions.


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## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> That Mail headline really brought some divisions up today in the small group of 9 that were in my school which made me feel quite sad.


can you explain more?


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## chilango (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.



Given the length of time that capital has allowed itself to be shutdown I'm more inclined to suspect we're not as fearful as we should be.


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## chilango (May 15, 2020)

flypanam said:


> My missus a teacher says as soon as the private schools go back, she’ll consider going back.



June 1st then.


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## chilango (May 15, 2020)

From what I've seen schools know that 2m social distancing is impossible and are planning on that assumption.


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## chilango (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> June 1st then.



...'cos private schools are shit scared that parents won't pay if they're not open, they're under plenty of pressure to open asap.


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## andysays (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Given the length of time that capital has allowed itself to be shutdown I'm more inclined to suspect we're not as fearful as we should be.


It's hardly surprising this poster is keen to downplay the dangers and encourage people back to work, given her class position


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## chilango (May 15, 2020)

andysays said:


> It's hardly surprising this poster is keen to downplay the dangers and encourage people back to work, given her class position



I wouldn't know about that.

But it's something when "common sense" is to hurl people into the midst of a plague.


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## Athos (May 15, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...



Clearly, this Tory government's plan to get kids back to school is so that their parents have no 'excuse' not to go to work; the idea that they're motivated by concern for the most vulnerable would be laughable if it wasn't so grim.  And, surely, there's better ways to protect those kids than a general return to school whilst the risks are so high?


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## Thora (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> From what I've seen schools know that 2m social distancing is impossible and are planning on that assumption.


Tbf the guidance also recognises that, at least for nursery and primary, and the emphasis is on keeping bubbles separate from each other rather than distancing within the bubbles.


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## andysays (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> I wouldn't know about that.
> 
> But it's something when "common sense" is to hurl people into the midst of a plague.


It's not something she's taken great pains to hide. Those factories aren't going to staff themselves.


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## chilango (May 15, 2020)

Thora said:


> Tbf the guidance also recognises that, at least for nursery and primary, and the emphasis is on keeping bubbles separate from each other rather than distancing within the bubbles.



Yep. I think similar is being planned in (some) Secondaries too.


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## flypanam (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...'cos private schools are shit scared that parents won't pay if they're not open, they're under plenty of pressure to open asap.


Fuck, they will only be open for 4 weeks then it’s the 8 week summer break.


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## Thora (May 15, 2020)

I'm pretty torn on the schools issue.  I really have no idea whether it is "safe enough" to go back now, I don't know/understand the science.

I can see why some teachers, especially vulnerable teachers, are really worried about going back to work.  I was also surprised they chose to send the youngest back - I was expecting 10, 12 and maybe 6.

I do think the bubbles should be smaller, max 10 in primary, 6-8 in nursery.  That would mean school would have to be part time or rota'd which wouldn't help with childcare, but even if classes are back 9-3 schools will be unlikely to provide wraparound care as they'd still have to keep children in their bubbles, and childminders are being told not to collect children from school.
School should be about contact with teachers and peers at the moment, not childcare.

Also though I've had to continue working throughout with 5 children from 4 key worker families, with no distancing or PPE, so children going into a group of 15 at school doesn't seem hugely more risky.

My own children will go back to school in June/July if they can.


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2020)

flypanam said:


> Fuck, they will only be open for 4 weeks then it’s the 8 week summer break.



Some have talked of extending their terms though.


----------



## planetgeli (May 15, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Simplistic, laughably so.
> 
> There are very serious concerns about putting 30 snotting, touching, crying kids in a room - and we won't be doing it - but there are also _huge _concerns that very large numbers of children (and often the children at the bottom end of the socioeconomic pile, and often the kids with SEN) have had no education, very poor diet, and little exercise for 2 months, and if they don't go back to school till September _7 months_.
> 
> ...



If only the issue were as black and white as you make it kebabking. Yes, I know that sounds like the beginning of a "When I were a lad we used to dream of living in middle of motorway" reply but forgive me, for when it comes to bottom of the socio-economic pile, working in mental health in a PRU, I think I might have something to say.

Our kids have been kicked out of education, often unfairly, have nothing so grand as a 'diet', spend their lives upstairs on playstations to avoid abuse, appear on every register you can think of, live in abject poverty and with no parenting whatsoever. A hell of a lot have suffered sexual abuse or other physical abuse, many are heroin babies or the sons and daughters of drug dealers. They wear the same clothes EVERY day and love coming to our school - having been thrown out of mainstream - because it's somewhere they meet wellbeing and safeguarding for the first time in their lives.

I would love to go 'back to normal' with them. But it's simply not sensible to right now.

In the meantime...hot meals you say? Yep, none of them get hot meals at home. And you know what? None of them get hot meals in school either. We have no proper kitchen, no kitchen staff, and absolutely no provision for hot meals. Once a week the wellbeing officer takes it on himself to cook for them. It's not practical to do it once a week, let alone five days a week, but he tries. 
The school is a condemned primary school 100 years old. With asbestos. We were meant to be there 2 years, its now been 3. This is typical of how Local Authorities think about the bottom of the socio-economic pile.



> Most of these kids have not submitted one piece of work in two months,* or had any contact with the school or specialist support services.*



The first bit doesn't concern me at all if we are talking about kids at the bottom of the socio-economic pile. Because that is normal. Yes it is. In my school anyway, which is where the "dream of living in middle of motorway" relevance kicks in. If we really are talking the bottom of the pile, like I've described my kids, then of course, it would be lovely to think they could do some work (and some of my kids have been doing work, just very few of them, via the school website where dedicated teachers have uploaded modules for parents to download). But tbh, the main concern is their wellbeing and safeguarding, where the emboldened bit comes in. And frankly I'm shocked that you say neither the school nor specialist support services have had contact with the kids. Perhaps, in mainstream, it isn't the duty of the school to stay in contact, though frankly I'd argue people like your wife have a moral obligation to try. But no contact from specialist support services? No social workers? I find that hard to believe. Regardless, in our school, though there is no statutory obligation on our behalf, our 'schoolpod' (computer system) is chocka full with details of contacts between staff and vulnerable pupils every day. Because it's all we can do right now. So we make sure we bloody well do. Every member of staff has 2-4 pupils for which they are keyworkers. We make sure we contact these kids 2/3/4 times a week and record what is happening.

It may seem a poor substitute but it's a lot more than you describe is happening, and while we can't, and shouldn't go back to work risking vulnerable staff's lives, it's what we will continuie to do. Many of us are in touch with key outside agencies and support services as well as our kids. We are not sitting at home 'swanning around' however I might have made light of this in other threads. Nobody feels like they're on holiday.

I'd suggest, bearing in mind what I've written, there are bigger issues need addressing in provision for those at the bottom of the pile and that these issues were there before Covid and will be there after Covid. Proper funding for PRUs, SEN kids and kids with severe emotional problems and needs from 'the bottom of the pile'. Simply going back to school is not therefore going to solve these problems. And not going back to school, to go back to where this started with the Edie post, is not a disproportionate response to the virus. It's there to save lives of vulnerable staff members who work their hearts out with the most vulnerable of children - and are still doing so, unseen to many, all, of you lot.


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2020)

Fwiw my daughter is desperate to get back to school to see her friends. She's in tears at some point most days about it. I'm sure she's not the only one.


----------



## flypanam (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Some have talked of extending their terms though.


I’m not opposed to the state experimenting on private schools as long as the rest remain in the control group.


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2020)

flypanam said:


> I’m not opposed to the state experimenting on private schools as long as the rest remain in the control group.



Joking aside, there are many powerful people in the State (sic) sector who slavishly ape the private sector in the belief that it's the route to "success".

There'll be Academy bosses as we speak floating the idea of staying open over Summer or in the Evening.


----------



## flypanam (May 15, 2020)

Yeah I know I think the Oasis academy are talking about opening early. One of those free schools which will be at the forefront of the push to open.


----------



## Athos (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Joking aside, there are many powerful people in the State (sic) sector who slavishly ape the private sector in the belief that it's the route to "success".
> 
> There'll be Academy bosses as we speak floating the idea of staying open over Summer or in the Evening.



I suspect they'll be strong calls for a 'compromise' of staying open later in the day, now, rather than 'having' to open in the summer.  I.e. so parents can work longer days, and by the time the sumer hols come around we've have relaxed lockdown to allow childcare/grandparents to do it.


----------



## kebabking (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Yep. I think similar is being planned in (some) Secondaries too.



Mrs K's school has decided that reception and year 1 will _not _be going back (governors meeting till 11.45 last night), year 6 will, but in pods of 7. Staff (1 teacher, 1 TA, 1 lunchtime supervisor) will stick that pod and not go near any others. VC and key workers kids (I don't think the categories have changed?) will be seperate pods, with renewed efforts to get VC kids in.

There's an absolute cap on numbers - if VC and and key workers kids numbers go up, then Y6 numbers will go down, and the whole school will close completely on Wednesdays for a deep clean.

Apparently most of the other schools in the borough are working along similar lines - depends on physical space, staffing etc...


----------



## Thora (May 15, 2020)

The government guidance is that where schools can't accommodate all the children, they must prioritise the youngest.  I wonder what the government will actually do if schools choose not to open at all or not for younger children though?  How can they actually enforce it.


----------



## Indeliblelink (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...'cos private schools are shit scared that parents won't pay if they're not open, they're under plenty of pressure to open asap.


Plus they get the highest fees from those who board.


----------



## PursuedByBears (May 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Fwiw my daughter is desperate to get back to school to see her friends. She's in tears at some point most days about it. I'm sure she's not the only one.


My 6-yr old son is the same


----------



## Celyn (May 15, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> ...
> don't remember hay-making being an opportunity in the summer holidays in 1970s lewisham


 Not that much of it in 1970s Glasgow either. The sensible reason for the school term ending in late June is because they do it for my birthday. Oh yes it is. I will brook no disagreement! 

(Self-centred? ME? . )

and the university term ended in late June to make us miss Glastonbury.


----------



## Celyn (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


It is hard to know the actual risk even for statistical geniuses and health professionals. I mean, I feel bad not seeing my Dad, but what with him being 85, diabetic, overweight, not terribly healthy and the way of getting there being taxi or taxi plus buses, it does seem a bit risky. Still, that's a bit of a derail from schools. Sorry.


----------



## Edie (May 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How do you feel about the 5 tests from NEU. They seem essential to me.


Sorry for delay. They seem sensible but certainly the first is so woolly as to not be much use. What’s your feeling?


----------



## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> Sorry for delay. They seem sensible but certainly the first is so woolly as to not be much use. What’s your feeling?


I'll go with the British Medical Association on this:

"The British Medical Association has thrown its weight behind teaching unions opposing the government’s push to reopen schools in England, as the debate over millions of pupils returning to classrooms grew increasingly acrimonious.

... the BMA – the UK’s largest doctors’ union – said in a letter to the National Education Union on Friday that the number of coronavirus infections remained too high to allow them to run safely. *Teaching unions had been “absolutely right” to urge caution and prioritise testing before reopening schools on 1 June."*



Its the governments job to get this in place


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

To be honest I trust the BMA position very little. This is a case of a middle class interest group rallying around another middle class interest group. 

Every child deserves to be able to go to school. 




planetgeli said:


> many are heroin babies or the sons and daughters of drug dealers.



Could be said in lots of socio-economic areas. It is where the children are in poverty (i.e. the parents are low level/ unsuccessful drug dealers) that the impact is that much greater. 

Even in prosperous areas many children are neglected by crap parents stuck to the bottle. School is a place where children can escape parents. Teachers have a responsibility to get back to work.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Every child deserves to be able to go to school.


every child deserves to go to school without risking contracting or carrying a disease for which there is neither immunity nor cure


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Its the governments job to get this in place


That's fucked then


----------



## Thora (May 15, 2020)

Our CEO   has said they will be opening in June for YR,1, 10 & 12 for only 2 days a week.


----------



## planetgeli (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Could be said in lots of socio-economic areas. It is where the children are in poverty (i.e. the parents are low level/ unsuccessful drug dealers) that the impact is that much greater.



Yeah. Did you miss the first part of the sentence you're quoting?



> *live in abject poverty* and with no parenting whatsoever. A hell of a lot have suffered sexual abuse or other physical abuse, many are heroin babies or the sons and daughters of drug dealers.



I don't have time for people who can't read but still try to argue a point.


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Yeah. Did you miss the first part of the sentence you're quoting?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have time for people who can't read but still try to argue a point.



Not sure who the argument is coming from here apart from your good self. Assuming you are a teacher it is interesting you don't have time for people who can't read... or that you choose that slur...


----------



## planetgeli (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Not sure who the argument is coming from here apart from your good self. Assuming you are a teacher it is interesting you don't have time for people who can't read... or that you choose that slur...



I'm not a teacher. Keep trying. Because you obviously never read my post properly, just jumped in.


----------



## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> If only the issue were as black and white as you make it kebabking. Yes, I know that sounds like the beginning of a "When I were a lad we used to dream of living in middle of motorway" reply but forgive me, for when it comes to bottom of the socio-economic pile, working in mental health in a PRU, I think I might have something to say.
> 
> Our kids have been kicked out of education, often unfairly, have nothing so grand as a 'diet', spend their lives upstairs on playstations to avoid abuse, appear on every register you can think of, live in abject poverty and with no parenting whatsoever. A hell of a lot have suffered sexual abuse or other physical abuse, many are heroin babies or the sons and daughters of drug dealers. They wear the same clothes EVERY day and love coming to our school - having been thrown out of mainstream - because it's somewhere they meet wellbeing and safeguarding for the first time in their lives.
> 
> ...



There's so much 'unseen' stuff going on. We have contacted all parents and whilst the majority of families seem ok, there are also quite a few horror stories that I've heard (don't want to go in to it here), which is so sad and going to cause permanent damage to said families and it's going to be a massive social battle not just due to these awful losses and the digital divide, (but particularly in schools in highly disadvantaged communities) getting pupils back to learning.


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I'm not a teacher.


Good.


----------



## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Teachers have a responsibility to get back to work.



Very few teachers would disagree with that, when it's safe to do so.


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

Mattym said:


> Very few teachers would disagree with that, when it's safe to do so.


Problem is there is always risk - it is about balancing risks and mitigating them. If the end result of this were a massive school building programme and class sizes of 15 then the risks could be sensibly mitigated.


----------



## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Problem is there is always risk - it is about balancing risks and mitigating them. If the end result of this were a massive school building programme and class sizes of 15 then the risks could be sensibly mitigated.



It is but it has to be a balance where pupils and teachers feel confident to enter the school and given that the BMA has backed unions, I don't feel confident. Whether I do at the beginning of June depends on a number of things.


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

The thing is I don't trust the BMA to fully grasp the risks for many pupils of not being at school. Housing in the UK is crap for many families, lack of  exercise is crap, nutrition is crap, having to do the family's shopping because you are not at school and are expected to therefore look after the siblings puts you at plenty of potential covid risk as well.


----------



## Spandex (May 15, 2020)

I want my kids to go back to school. My kids want to go back to school. My daughter _really _wants to go back to school. The teachers want to get back to school. Being stuck in our flat most of the time, with occasional trips out to the same few places and my half-arsed attempts at  teaching them stuff while both me and my partner try to do our jobs from home is not doing them any good. Obviously there's kids who really need to get back to school far more than mine do.

But...

What has really changed since late-Feb/early March when CV-19 was spreading around the country? The government has so far failed to sort out a working test-track-trace-isolate system. PPE is still in short supply. There's three times as many people being diagnosed per day now than when lockdown started (yeah, I know testing has increased, but still...). Lockdown has been eased so there's more interaction between people. More people are going to work so there's more interaction between people. R0 is creeping up again based on infections that happened two weeks ago when the lockdown was still in full swing (or as full as it ever got).

Until the country is a bit more prepared to deal with CV-19 (why the fuck isn't the country more prepared to deal with CV-19 yet?) it seems kind of early to be opening the schools again.


----------



## nogojones (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Problem is there is always risk - it is about balancing risks and mitigating them. If the end result of this were a massive school building programme and class sizes of 15 then the risks could be sensibly mitigated.


Yeah there's always risk. But the risk seems very high at the moment. 47 teachers dead the last time I looked, infection rates higher than when all this started and fucking psychopathic muppets in charge.

In your risk balancing calculations how many teachers, support staff, kids and the family that they will pass it on to is it OK to kill?


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Yeah there's always risk. But the risk seems very high at the moment. 47 teachers dead the last time I looked, inection rates higher than when all this started and fucking psychopathic muppets in charge.
> 
> In your risk balancing calculations how many teachers, support staff, kids and the family that they will pass it on to is it OK to kill?


That would have to be additional risk. Pupils will still be passing it on and subject to risk even if schools are closed. Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway. The exercise aspect is also a concern. One of the main factors in covid deaths is obesity. It is not safe to be at home doing fuck all for month after month. 1 month maybe but as we approach month three the risk of inaction grows significantly.


----------



## nogojones (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> That would have to be additional risk. Pupils will still be passing it on and subject to risk even if schools are closed. Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway. The exercise aspect is also a concern. One of the main factors in covid deaths is obesity. It is not safe to be at home doing fuck all for month after month. 1 month maybe but as we approach month three the risk of inaction grows significantly.


So how many then? how many are you cool with dying?


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

nogojones said:


> So how many then? how many are you cool with dying?



Do you think all road users should have to stay at home? No? Then how many are you cool with dying? It is a silly question. I am not cool with dying bro. I just don't trust people who speak about "kids" and call themselves teachers but argue about the necessity to stay at home and not teach their pupils.


----------



## nogojones (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Do you think all road users should have to stay at home? No? Then how many are you cool with dying? It is a silly question. I am not cool with dying bro. I just don't trust people who speak about "kids" and call themselves teachers but argue about the necessity to stay at home and not teach their pupils.


We've significantly reduced road deaths lately though.

These are additional deaths I'm talking about. If 47 miners hed been killed in the last 2 months, the mines would be shut. And the children are not "forgoing their education" they're having something like 2.5 months off whilst doing work from home and the like. I remember the teachers going on strike for a couple of months when I was in comp. Ok my spellin isn't great but my generation have done just as well as any other


----------



## nyxx (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.



This is fucking disgusting.


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

nogojones said:


> We've significantly reduced road deaths lately though.
> 
> These are additional deaths I'm talking about. If 47 miners hed been killed in the last 2 months, the mines would be shut. And the children are not "forgoing their education" they're having something like 2.5 months off whilst doing work from home and the like. I remember the teachers going on strike for a couple of months when I was in comp. Ok my spellin isn't great but my generation have done just as well as any other



How do you know the 47 teacher deaths are all additional? They may have been people who had underlying cardio problems etc. and were ready for leaving the mortal coil in a couple of months in any case.  Some pupils are working from home. Many are not.


----------



## kenny g (May 15, 2020)

nyxx said:


> This is fucking disgusting.


So having children kept in lockdown is pretty?


----------



## Edie (May 15, 2020)

andysays said:


> It's not something she's taken great pains to hide. Those factories aren't going to staff themselves.


I wasn’t gonna respond to this but I’ve thought better. You can fuck off cos I bet your a) white b) a bloke c) southern d) working from home e) in your middle class job. And even if none of them apply your definitely f) a twat for referring to me as if I’m not there. Have a great evening, nobhead.


----------



## Raheem (May 15, 2020)

I totally agree that schools should be starting to reopen from 1st June. 

Problem is, we have a government that has fucked up almost every step of the way, so that no reasonable person can have confidence that it is safe to do so, and is promoting impatience as a substitute for a coherent plan. 

Re-opening schools at the moment is likely not to be sustainable anyway. We would probably end up re-closing them.


----------



## nogojones (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> How do you know the 47 teacher deaths are all additional? They may have been people who had underlying cardio problems etc. and were ready for leaving the mortal coil in a couple of months in any case.  Some pupils are working from home. Many are not.





kenny g said:


> So having children kept in lockdown is pretty?


It's prettier than being some sort of eugenicist


----------



## nyxx (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> So having children kept in lockdown is pretty?



It’s also a massive deflection from the real reason lock down is still necessary.

depressing as fuck to see people still coming out with this nasty eugenicist enabling bollocks.


----------



## nyxx (May 15, 2020)

nogojones said:


> It's prettier than being a some sort of eugenicist



Beat me to it!


----------



## frogwoman (May 15, 2020)

Even if they were near the end of their life they'd be a lot less near it if Covid didn't exist.


----------



## Mattym (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> How do you know the 47 teacher deaths are all additional? They may have been people who had underlying cardio problems etc. and were ready for leaving the mortal coil in a couple of months in any case.  Some pupils are working from home. Many are not.



I'm sorry but that's a dreadful way of looking at it. Doesn't matter if those people have underlying medical problems. Nobody, regardless of class, teacher or pupil, vulnerable or not, should be placed at risk by this. Staying alive for all is more important than the number of pupils completing work.


----------



## mwgdrwg (May 15, 2020)

Mattym said:


> I'm sorry but that's a dreadful way of looking at it. Doesn't matter if those people have underlying medical problems. Nobody, regardless of class, teacher or pupil, vulnerable or not, should be placed at risk by this. Staying alive for all is more important than the number of pupils completing work.



You can't argue with these mad cunts.


----------



## frogwoman (May 15, 2020)

A 21 year old girl died in my village, almost certainly from this shit. 

Take it seriously ffs.


----------



## frogwoman (May 15, 2020)

I totally agree that schools need to go back in person at some point, maybe even before the summer depending how it's going, but June 1st seems like its way too early considering the mess the government have made of everything. I already know of several people and friends/relatives of friends and family who died of covid 19. And they think there is some infectious complication involving children


----------



## nogojones (May 15, 2020)

mwgdrwg said:


> You can't argue with these mad cunts.


If they're anything like their father, his kids must be insufferable little fuckers. You can't blame him for wanting to get them out of the house


----------



## nyxx (May 15, 2020)

Children are potentially missing a year of school _because the government completely fucked dealing with this pandemic_

Not because older people want to stay alive.

For fucks sake how fucking stupid are you?

WHY is it even considered as either/or?

Never mind what kind of scumbag even comes up with that binary as a “choice” in the first place!


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Teachers have a responsibility to get back to work.



Fuck that.

Nobody has a "responsibility" to get back to work.

Even in normal times, nevermind during a Pandemic.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 15, 2020)

Back to work lol
I'm not a teacher - I'm pastoral - but I'm responsible for the well-being of 176 students, and I've been working like a fucking nutter since lockdown started.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.


Fucking hell Edie  Your nationwide colleagues are dying daily...a conservative estimate overall of  UK citizens is over 60, 000 dead.... Completely disproportionate?

Actual risk? ..well perhaps you and I will be lucky now all those people are dead 'heroes' that they are? 

It actually hurts to read your post.


----------



## Gramsci (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> The thing is I don't trust the BMA to fully grasp the risks for many pupils of not being at school. Housing in the UK is crap for many families, lack of  exercise is crap, nutrition is crap, having to do the family's shopping because you are not at school and are expected to therefore look after the siblings puts you at plenty of potential covid risk as well.



I know someone who works for the BMA. Its a Trade Union for doctors. It also lobbies for better health.

BMA do understand the link  between health and socio economic issues. Apart from representing its members BMA does a lot of good work on health issues and society.

This is example:





__





						BMA calls for taskforce to link housing and health
					

A healthy housing taskforce should be set up to tackle  ‘unacceptable' levels of homelessness and an increasingly residualised social housing sector,




					www.insidehousing.co.uk
				




So you are wrong to right off the BMA as middle class interest group.

So I would take notice of what the BMA says about schools re opening.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2020)

Certain years went back in France...


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2020)

Edie said:


> It’s somewhat of a surprise to me that Unions (and the general thrust of argument on here) seems to be so short sighted of social inequality and poverty.



You mean many of the same people who are actively fighting inequality and trying to hold the government to account  on issues of poverty through campaigning and lobbying  every single day? prior to Covid and still now?  

The very same unions that have helped deliver the kinds of rights that you and I who have jobs/contacts etc enjoy?


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.



Hold that thought. Your time will also come under your rules.


----------



## ska invita (May 15, 2020)

Those union demands arent that impossible...the main thing unions are asking for is a process to be in place for when an outbreak occurs in a school and shit hits the fan. its not a lot to ask. its hardly unions taking their ball home and refusing to play


----------



## Humberto (May 15, 2020)

Every 'leader' takes charge in some way. It may not be in the way you or I want.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Those union demands arent that impossible...the main thing unions are asking for is a process to be in place for when an outbreak occurs and shit hits the fan. its not a lot to ask. its hardly unions taking their ball home and refusing to play



Also...

Unions represent their members and their interests...they are not simply plucking this shit out of thin air for fun and expecting members to agree.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 15, 2020)

Unions ARE* their members and their interests

*or ought to be as much as is possible


----------



## Gramsci (May 16, 2020)

flypanam said:


> My missus a teacher says as soon as the private schools go back, she’ll consider going back.



My partner was told yesterday the private school she works at is opening 1st June.


----------



## oryx (May 16, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> My partner was told yesterday the private school she works at is opening 1st June.


Interesting, my young neighbour (11 and at a local private school) said they weren't going back until September, as their term ends early compared to state schools and it wasn't worth it (their view, not hers as she misses school a lot).

Anyway... posted this on the CV in the UK thread:

A rushed opening of schools is just begging for a second spike/the situation in schools replicating that in care homes.

 And yes, it's not about education, it's about schools being used as free childcare so their parents can go back to work.

And to add - I've been sickened and horrified by the stories on the BBC website about healthcare, transport etc. workers dying. Most of them seem to be quite young. I've worked in the NHS, albeit many years ago, and I expected long hours, relatively poor pay and doing things many other people wouldn't even want to think about doing. What I wouldn't have expected is dying while doing this.

I don't want to see teachers, pastoral and ancillary staff in schools added to this grim toll. Or the relatives of kids who may be vulnerable, or of course any kids. I appreciate kids themselves may be less susceptible to the disease, but they are vectors.


----------



## Gramsci (May 16, 2020)

A worry for my partner is that when her school re opens on 1st June she will have to use public transport to get to work ( London).

Apart from safety issues in school this re opening of schools is going to mean that people  will now have to add to numbers on public transport. My partner will be at risk just by having to use the underground.

What I find particularly annoying is that the government told everyone to stay at home and "protect the  NHS". Now heard Tory say teachers should "do their duty" and return to work. Like they are in the army.

The idea that Unions arent interested in inequality or poverty is the Tory line of argument.

The people I know who work in schools are very committed and socially aware.

The bottom line is that no worker should be forced to work in unsafe conditions.


----------



## oryx (May 16, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Now heard Tory say teachers should "do their duty" and return to work. Like they are in the army.



Agree 100%. The first thing I, too, thought of when I read the bullshit about 'duty' was the army being used as cannon fodder. 

Lots of resistance to this happening though.


----------



## Gramsci (May 16, 2020)

Learnt a lot on this thread. 

On children who are vulnerable. Fact of the matter is services for children have been run down for years. Tory "austerity" saw cuts to youth services leaving only the bare mimimum statutory services running by local Councils. 

My local Adventure playground closed. Locals re opened it. But it runs on a shoestring with no funds from Council. Its closed at moment due to pandemic.
Keeps in touch with local neighbourhood by now delivering food parcels.

What Im saying is the network of local places where adults supervised children practically dissappeared. 

When a crisis comes along like this pandemic there isnt the resiliant network to deal with situation. So children from more deprived areas lose out.

The social infrastructure in which children can learn and develop has over years been whittled away.

This is not the fault of teachers. Or teachers Unions.


----------



## oryx (May 16, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Learnt a lot on this thread.
> 
> On children who are vulnerable. Fact of the matter is services for children have been run down for years. Tory "austerity" saw cuts to youth services leaving only the bare mimimum statutory services running by local Councils.
> 
> ...


Yes, suddenly the government and their allies are all concerned about kids' education and them being cooped up in flats without gardens and no access to tech to learn remotely.

Like, they didn't end the EMA, they care about people in overcrowded housing, they didn't cut money to local authorities which affects social services and CAMHS as well as education?


----------



## Raheem (May 16, 2020)

Worth mentioning that schools are not necessarily sitting on their hands while kids just miss out on education. There was a primary school teacher on our estate the other day chatting to a mum and their kids for quite a long time. I know the family quite well, and she is alright but still working, so it is probably her useless partner not bothering with the schoolwork. In any case, clearly the school is not making no attempt to offer support. 

I also got chatting to a teacher in the park today who said that they are finding a lot of families who they would have expected to have needed to gee up with regard to school work are in fact engaging with it really well, because one or both of the parents is not working now. Liberation from the daily grind. 

By the way, I would say this woman was well past normal retirement age, so a prime candidate for a 'hero' we can all clap into her grave


----------



## N_igma (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> How do you know the 47 teacher deaths are all additional? They may have been people who had underlying cardio problems etc. and were ready for leaving the mortal coil in a couple of months in any case.  Some pupils are working from home. Many are not.



What a sick, horrible comment. There are over 500,000 teachers in the UK. If we opened up schools in June without the necessary protocols and protections you’d be looking at between 2,500-5,000 dead teachers. Would you be happy to let that rest on your conscience as long as the pupils were back in school?

I have also spoken with a colleague whose school carried out a risk assessment, they’d need over 150 classrooms (secondary school) in order to maintain safe social distancing. You find me a school with over 150 classrooms, with all the additional staff needed to maintain this arrangement and I’ll eat my hat. 

I’m a supply teacher with asthma who relies on day to day work, so I can’t even go to work as much as I want to. I also can’t even get furloughed because Northern Ireland has a different arrangement than the rest of the UK. My last payment was in April and my first Universal Credit payment will be June. And even still I would never in a million years expect my fellow colleagues who do have contracts to go back to work until it is safe for them to do so.


----------



## andysays (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> I wasn’t gonna respond to this but I’ve thought better. You can fuck off cos I bet your a) white b) a bloke c) southern d) working from home e) in your middle class job. And even if none of them apply your definitely f) a twat for referring to me as if I’m not there. Have a great evening, nobhead.


As I've detailed before, I'm out working every day in my job as a council gardener, maintaining green spaces on housing estates so residents and others can use them for exercise.

I just think it's worth pointing out that your views on this and other subjects are clearly influenced by your connection to international capitalism. It's there to see in all your union-bashing posts, for instance, among many other examples.

And if you think that being white, male and southern (it's worse than that, I'm actually in London) makes me more privileged or less affected by this situation than you and your "fella" with factories in China and elsewhere then you're talking nonsense.


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

nogojones said:


> If they're anything like their father, his kids must be insufferable little fuckers. You can't blame him for wanting to get them out of the house


Charming. And by the way incorrect. But then again if you can't engage in a discussion, I suppose you may as well dribble out and personalise it to someone's family life. To quote Edie above, "You are definitely a twat for referring to me as if I’m not there."


----------



## Red Cat (May 16, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Worth mentioning that schools are not necessarily sitting on their hands while kids just miss out on education. There was a primary school teacher on our estate the other day chatting to a mum and their kids for quite a long time. I know the family quite well, and she is alright but still working, so it is probably her useless partner not bothering with the schoolwork. In any case, clearly the school is not making no attempt to offer support.
> 
> *I also got chatting to a teacher in the park today who said that they are finding a lot of families who they would have expected to have needed to gee up with regard to school work are in fact engaging with it really well, because one or both of the parents is not working now. Liberation from the daily grind.*
> 
> By the way, I would say this woman was well past normal retirement age, so a prime candidate for a 'hero' we can all clap into her grave



I think this is important. I work in CAMHS and some families are doing better, their anxious children aren't faced with the demands of school which is often expressed in conflict with parents after school, children have a parent or parents around more than usual, some couples are getting on better because they have time for each other which means less tension, and the children feel more secure.

Obviously there are also many families struggling, there are many children who were already at risk who need intensive support work in the home (as well as everything else that might prevent such risk in the first place), but there's a flipside to this.

Teachers are working extremely hard. As are mental health services which never closed despite the government announcing a fortnight ago that they would be reopening.


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## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

To answer your "points"

1. 


nyxx said:


> Children are potentially missing a year of school _because the government completely fucked dealing with this pandemic Not because older people want to stay alive._



The reasons behind the initial spread of the pandemic in the UK is irrelevant as to whether pupils should  be allowed to go back to school. All children have a right to free education. It is one of the achievements of the last century that this was achieved so it seems strange people are trying to deny this.

2.


nyxx said:


> For fucks sake how fucking stupid are you?



Usually the use of the word, "stupid", in a discussion is an indication that the person using it is i) drunk ii) short of things to say. 

3.


nyxx said:


> WHY is it even considered as either/or?



Assuming "it" refers to going back to school. Do you think children should both go back to school and not go back to school? A kind of quantum state of schooling? 

Or, are you suggesting children could go back to school without any increase whatsoever in the "R" rate and therefore an inevitable increase in deaths? 

4.


nyxx said:


> Never mind what kind of scumbag even comes up with that binary as a “choice” in the first place!



Well there is a choice. Go to school, or don't go to school. if people leave their homes there are inevitably a new set of risks. If people stay at home there are also risks. 

If children go back to schools the roads will be busier. There will be more road accidents. It is likely in the short term there will  be an increase in road injuries and air pollution.  Presumably this would be acceptable? 

 If R reduced to zero do you think children should not be allowed back to school because of the inevitable increase in asthma and road accidents? 

If you believe with a zero R rating children should go back to school and this leads to some additional road traffic deaths and injuries does that make you a "scumbag" and/or "stupid"?


----------



## Indeliblelink (May 16, 2020)

If they want to make schools safer for workers/pupils they could also look at removing all the asbestos that kills about 20 teachers per year.








						Asbestos in schools: Is it a danger?
					

Asbestos is in half of the schools in north-west England and should be removed "as a priority", a teaching union says.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Charming.



Charming you say. Coming from the man who posted this last night.



> Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.



That's the bit where you outed yourself as a cunt, and people rightly turned on you.

So why are you such a cunt? Well, I know the reasons you've given. 'Children need their education, it's a right, anyone denying them this must be a Victorian prick.'

And then there's those bits where you show you, like Edie, don't seem to have any real idea about the R number, or if you do, you're too callous to care. You compare it with the strawman of car accidents, like they are on any sort of the same scale as this virus would be if left unrestricted. You have no clue.

But let's go back to that need for free education you keep prattling on about. The teacher's responsibility to teach. Something something you read in your Daily Mail over breakfast.

Shall we get to the point? I mean, the thing you're not mentioning that's really driving your argument here, an argument you are prepared to justify with killing people like me (I think you made it a bit personal first with that didn't you?).

Here's what this is really all about. What has driven your mind to believe it's better to kill people 'near the end of their life anyway'. Here's what you posted on March 19th.



> I also manage a team who have families at home at the moment as well and it is mental for all of us. The background is super stressful, people are really feeling it but it is difficult to express. Previously all our coping mechanisms involved getting out of the house - me working/ swimming/ galleries/ socialising . My eldest daughter galleries/ gym/ meeting friends. My wife had work and loads of great social groups which have now been cancelled. My youngest had all his sports activities. Now it is like we are in a life raft. We are getting through it but it is amazing how dramatic the last two weeks have been.



And that's it really isn't it? You'd had enough of your kids lives being disrupted back then, your nice middle class life being tossed out to sea. Your little clubs and activities suffering. Your nice middle class life turned upside down...and your kids under your feet. So now, 2 months later and tearing your hair out you decide to come back here with some pretend caring bullshit for kids free education, fully prepared to spread the hate of killing older people and those with underlying conditions (plenty of younger people are dying too you twat), all because you want your nice middle class life back and that is what counts most.

You selfish cunt.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> As I've detailed before, I'm out working every day in my job as a council gardener, maintaining green spaces on housing estates so residents and others can use them for exercise.
> 
> I just think it's worth pointing out that your views on this and other subjects are clearly influenced by your connection to international capitalism. It's there to see in all your union-bashing posts, for instance, among many other examples.
> 
> And if you think that being white, male and southern (it's worse than that, I'm actually in London) makes me more privileged or less affected by this situation than you and your "fella" with factories in China and elsewhere then you're talking nonsense.


Then why not point it out in a decent way, rather than this show of talking about me as if I’m not there? If you’ve got a problem with me just fucking say it to my face. Anyway well done on having impeccable working class credentials by gardening council estates jfc  altho I’m not sure that means you represent anyone’s views but your own.

(btw I have no idea who you are I only tend to know people’s personal lives if they post on the sofa).


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Charming you say. Coming from the man who posted this last night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for raising that. The interesting thing is that two months down the line we are all surprisingly happy. I miss those activities which you choose to belittle but as a family we all get along better than ever. 

This is my first weekend at home after working six day weeks after coming out of isolation at the time of that post so I would prefer to forgo the pleasure of being called a cunt at 9 in the morning by someone who appears to enjoy fighting straw men over their cereal. 

My wife is back at work today working the tills at retail. I suppose my "nice middle class life" :0 is coming back whether other people's children have access to free education or not.


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## Louis MacNeice (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Teachers have a responsibility to get back to work.



My partner is a teacher; she is the special educational needs and inclusion coordinator at an urban primary school with a high percentage of vulnerable children and children in receipt of free school meals. She has been working pretty much everyday - both in school and at home - since the lockdown began. Her priority has always been and remains making sure that all the pupils get what they need; that is a high quality education and the support they require to make the most of it. She knows that they cannot safely get reception, year 1 and year 6 back into their school from the first of June; they do not have the space, the staff or the associated resources to do so. She knows that doing so would put children, parents, teachers, support staff and all their families at greater risk; and those already at greatest risk would be further endangered. It's her responsibility to make sure this doesn't happen, and she takes it very seriously.

Please stop talking such ill considered rubbish.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## redsquirrel (May 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Fuck that.
> 
> Nobody has a "responsibility" to get back to work.
> 
> Even in normal times, nevermind during a Pandemic.


Indeed.

And if workers decide it is not safe to work then you back them.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 16, 2020)

I think one key effect of the schools being closed is that it keeps parents off work and helps ensure a more effective lockdown. The push to reopen schools is as much about getting people back to work.
And as well as the (uncertain) risks of transmission between kids, we also have the heightened risk to parents taking kids to school and at the school gates.
The government wants the lockdown to end but doesn't want to go publicly against scientific advice, so reopening schools is a key part of it.
But what may well happen is that infection rates shoot up again and the schools end up being closed down ag


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

What happens if there aren't any teachers to reopen a school? Obviously this is just me because the Mail says teachers are desperate to get back to Corona Central


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Very well said. There’s this total black and white thinking about risk wrt covid, where somehow having a death rate that can have an actual daily confirmed Government figure placed on it completely overshadows perception of other risk.
> 
> Poverty kills. Domestic violence and child abuse results in deaths. Job losses are devastating. Economic collapse will undoubtably lead to loss of life.
> 
> ...



I think, hope, that we all are as aware of these circumstances as we always have been. This is why we need our government to have a coherent strategy that deals with this efficiently so that we can all get back to normal life. No one wants anyone to continue to live in circumstances which increase their risk. However, that is not the driving force behind this wish to get us back to work. That is what is the driving force of this debate. Or was. I haven't caught up yet.

So this govt wants us back to work and we want us back to work but not if it will put us at the same risk that we have been staying at home to manage for the last 7 weeks. You know that, right?


----------



## Fruitloop (May 16, 2020)

aren't 50,000 people dead?


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## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Fruitloop said:


> aren't 50,000 people dead?


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

The idea that kids are being denied education is a fucking nonsense, too, thousands of schools hastily made provision for this by planning before the gov belatedly shut down. Both my kids have work set weekly by their respective primary and secondary schools (even though my daughter would have just finished SATS and my son would have just a couple of exams left so has effectively left). 

The college I work at moved to online educating within a very short timeframe. Work is still set, online conferences happen weekly or twice weekly, an Instagram page has been made and constantly updated with well-being stuff. I have 176 students who are split roughly into three groups who I contact weekly, fortnightly and monthly, as well as a list of 30-odd highly vulnerable learners I have to be sure are ok. As well as this there are the usual IT problems, social media fallouts, students getting kicked out or struggling or wanting to tell me how happy they are that their girlfriend is having a baby boy. I'm sending parents info. Parents are telling me the kid that can't be arsed to work at college is looking after his little brother and doing washing all day so she can sleep after her night shifts. I'm ringing, texting and emailing students to remind them to attend online conferences and working with Safeguarding to arrange home visits for the few students who haven't been in touch lately or are struggling. All of this without the in-built pressure valve of actually seeing my learners and colleagues, which my job is built on.

I'm desperate to go back. But I'm asthmatic so I need to know it's safe.

I know I'm lucky I can work from home, I know that. But I'm fucked if I'm letting anyone think I'm sat in the garden with a white wine spritzer all day. I'm working harder than ever for my students and they're mainly doing pretty well, all told.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

Fruitloop said:


> aren't 50,000 people dead?



Yes but that's all behind us now. Like all politics, we must leave that issue in the rear view and pretend as though everything is fine.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

Plus, if children are at risk from living in a rape den then I would hope that those teachers have spoken with social services about that risk. That means that social services will do what they can, which probably won't mitigate that risk but then being at school should not, primarily, be about reducing a child's risk of being raped.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Then why not point it out in a decent way, rather than this show of talking about me as if I’m not there? If you’ve got a problem with me just fucking say it to my face. Anyway well done on having impeccable working class credentials by gardening council estates jfc  altho I’m not sure that means you represent anyone’s views but your own.
> 
> (btw I have no idea who you are I only tend to know people’s personal lives if they post on the sofa).



I had a look at your posts and andysays is correct about you. Just thought Id say that as you want people to say things to your face.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

oryx said:


> I don't want to see teachers, pastoral and ancillary staff in schools added to this grim toll. Or the relatives of kids who may be vulnerable, or of course any kids. I appreciate kids themselves may be less susceptible to the disease, but they are vectors.


Point 5 of NEU demands addresses this - simply showing some foresight into the inevitable. Its not too much to ask is it

*Test 5 : Protection for the vulnerable*
Vulnerable staff, and staff who live with vulnerable people, must work from home, fulfilling their professional duties to the extent that is possible. Plans must be specifically address the protection of vulnerable parents, grandparents and carers.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

bmd said:


> I think, hope, that we all are as aware of these circumstances as we always have been. This is why we need our government to have a coherent strategy that deals with this efficiently so that we can all get back to normal life. No one wants anyone to continue to live in circumstances which increase their risk. However, that is not the driving force behind this wish to get us back to work. That is what is the driving force of this debate. Or was. I haven't caught up yet.
> 
> So this govt wants us back to work and we want us back to work but not if it will put us at the same risk that we have been staying at home to manage for the last 7 weeks. You know that, right?


Bit confused by your last question. Do you mean that everyone and the Gov wants to get back to work, but not if exposure to risk is above that of stopping at home?

If so then of course going back to work or school will involve an increase in risk. The argument is about to what degree and when. Accepting no increased risk is unrealistic?

Our country, and countries around the world, are heading for the biggest economic recession of a decade, maybe a generation, possibly even of a century. Businesses are going to start to collapse really pretty quickly, and with them jobs. Is that really not something you and other people here want to see prevented?

If you want to prevent it, something needs to be done. The Government isn’t going to be able to bail out every business, or furlough pay at 80% indefinitely.

Maybe June is too early to reopen some school classes. But maybe with some sense of proportion (such as with PPE if that’s thought to do anything, and staggered class sizes etc) it isn’t.


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## Edie (May 16, 2020)

And if you think a recession doesn’t mean excess deaths (of the poor) your kidding yourselves. It’s just harder to count.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 16, 2020)

Perspective from Germany:


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## andysays (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> And if you think a recession doesn’t mean excess deaths (of the poor) your kidding yourselves. It’s just harder to count.


Certainly harder to count than your fella's lost profits


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

We're at the point now where wanting to protect kids, teachers, school staff and the families they go home to is somehow a Left Wing plot orchestrated by rabble rousing unions to cause trouble and bring down the government? It doesn't matter that the UK death toil is at 60,000 and rising, the actual risk is somehow not important and lazy folk just need to get back to work and suck it up like proper HEROES whose lives are already filed under inevitable collateral damage.

No magic money tree
Survival of the fittest
Poverty has always existed.
Natural order.
Work sets you free.


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## Edie (May 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> Certainly harder to count than your fella's lost profits


Listen if you think I shouldn’t express an opinion cos of who I’m dating then I’ll stop. I don’t give a fuck tbh, just discuss it between yourselves in your own bubble.


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I would prefer to forgo the pleasure of being called a cunt at 9 in the morning



Yeah. And I'd prefer not to be seen as cannon fodder with underlying health problems that would soon be dead so what's the point of 



> extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.



We all have our crosses to bear eh? Apologies for getting tetchy when someone wishes me dead.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

Its pretty simple
1st June is the suggested date
Teachers and unions want to reopen, are simply asking for these safeguards to be put in place.
There's two weeks still to implement them and still get 1st June going
No reason why those 5 safeguards arent achievable (including #1 lower rate of infections which should be lower in two weeks time) within that time frame, if the government got on with it

The only reason to disagree is to think the safeguards shouldnt be there

ETA: those five points were drawn up a while ago, instead of getting on with it they're wasting time resisting them


----------



## redsquirrel (May 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I know I'm lucky I can work from home, I know that. But I'm fucked if I'm letting anyone think I'm sat in the garden with a white wine spritzer all day. I'm working harder than ever for my students and they're mainly doing pretty well, all told.


Yeah I'm in tertiary education not primary/secondary but there is a crap load of teaching going on and mine and my colleagues workloads have not decreased.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> And if you think a recession doesn’t mean excess deaths (of the poor) your kidding yourselves. It’s just harder to count.



I don't think it's that hard tbh. We have more than enough data by looking at the 'austerity' years since 2008 for example.


----------



## andysays (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Listen if you think I shouldn’t express an opinion cos of who I’m dating then I’ll stop. I don’t give a fuck tbh, just discuss it between yourselves in your own bubble.


Let's be clear, nowhere have I said you shouldn't express an opinion.

I'm just pointing out that your eagerness for people to go back to work to help the economy, at whatever risk to them and those around them, appears to me to be closely related to your membership of the capitalist class and willingness to put the need of that class for increased profit above all else, including the safety of workers. 

You carry on posting this stuff and I'll carry on commenting on it.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> And if you think a recession doesn’t mean excess deaths (of the poor) your kidding yourselves. It’s just harder to count.


Why does a recession have to lead to more deaths? Is there some law, or is it rather because of the political choices of those with wealth and power? 
(Hint: it's the latter)


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2020)

bmd said:


> What happens if there aren't any teachers to reopen a school? Obviously this is just me because the Mail says teachers are desperate to get back to Corona Central


Mail comments today are all about the feckless teachers lying on their sofas eating Pringles because they’re selfish and hate Britain.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Most of my teacher friends haven't stopped working, either in school or at home. Schrodinger's teachers. At work whilst doing nothing at the same time. Clever cunts.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> Mail comments today are all about the feckless teachers lying on their sofas eating Pringles because they’re selfish and hate Britain.


incidentally i know 4 teachers - all 4 want to go back (safely), all 4 are already working from home, would rather do so in the classroom.


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2020)

It’s quite a feat, to have turned teachers of all people into some kind of national enemy for people to hate.


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## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> Mail comments today are all about the feckless teachers lying on their sofas eating Pringles because they’re selfish and hate Britain.


Mail comments are usually horrible so nothing changed.


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2020)

I can’t keep track of it all did government say 1st June some classes return regardless of what infection rates are on that date or was it contingent on that?


----------



## Thora (May 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> I can’t keep track of it all did government say 1st June some classes return regardless of what infection rates are on that date or was it contingent on that?


They will confirm of 28th May whether it is safe to open on 1st June (for school and childcare).


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> It’s quite a feat, to have turned teachers of all people into some kind of national enemy for people to hate.


The Mail hates teachers tho. Always has. It’s a fucking parody.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> Let's be clear, nowhere have I said you shouldn't express an opinion.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that your eagerness for people to go back to work to help the economy, at whatever risk to them and those around them, appears to me to be closely related to your membership of the capitalist class and willingness to put the need of that class for increased profit above all else, including the safety of workers.
> 
> You carry on posting this stuff and I'll carry on commenting on it.


Your so self righteous


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> The Mail hates teachers tho. Always has. It’s a fucking parody.


I did not know this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> The Mail hates teachers tho. Always has. It’s a fucking parody.


...and greedy doctors/nurses, single mothers, BAME communities, disabled people, the unemployed, low waged workers...Be easier to talk about who they do like which is probably a more interesting discussion.


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## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> The Mail hates teachers tho. Always has. It’s a fucking parody.


it was calling them heroes yesterday which the nasty unions were stopping them from being


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> it was calling them heroes yesterday which the nasty unions were stopping them from being



Schrodinger's Mail.

It's the Unions they're really after, and if that means individual teaching staff as collateral, they don't care.


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> it was calling them heroes yesterday which the nasty unions were stopping them from being


It was calling for them to be heroes, which is different.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> it was calling them heroes yesterday which the nasty unions were stopping them from being



Nah, it was demanding they be heroes and accusing unions of stopping them fulfilling their national duty of going back to work and risking their lives. There's a war on don't you know?

Nothing new in terms of tactics though is it?


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> it was calling them heroes yesterday which the nasty unions were stopping them from being


Not quite. (bimbles got it).

I’ve always said this hero rhetoric is a dangerous game and should be mocked. But people like it and fair enough can see why.


----------



## alex_ (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> On top of that, 43 teachers have already died up to April 20th from teaching children of key workers



Assume teachers for some reason are unable to get covid from anywhere other than at schools ?


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

I'll drop this but it says Magnificent Staff v Militant Unions.

They don't hate teachers, they hate unions, or unionised teachers. They urge teachers to be "better than that"


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Yeah we know mate but the underlying 'call to be war heroes' is clearly there. A indirect appeal to teachers, the assumption that the unions have it wrong and are not supporting the interests of their members/all teachers.


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2020)

The whole use of the idea of heroes to describe individuals doing their jobs without basic safety standards (Ppe or plans for schools) is pernicious , takes the focus away from the people who have put them in that situation. The war metaphor works, if all the boys killed within seconds of going ‘over the top’ are heroes instead of victims then the people who forced them to do it did nothing wrong.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

The war hero narrative is deliberate and they are all at it.   

'They probably shouldn't but they do'
'It's a beautiful thing to see'


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> The war hero narrative is deliberate and they are all at it.
> 
> 'They probably shouldn't but they do'
> 'It's a beautiful thing to see'




Lives up to his name doesn't he? Trumps himself every time. I mean, most of us would have great difficulty thinking up even more hideous quotes than our last hideous quote. Not him though.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> The war hero narrative is deliberate and they are all at it.
> 
> 'They probably shouldn't but they do'
> 'It's a beautiful thing to see'



Fuck sake the guy is such a tool. Why are we all so easy to manipulate. Genuinely makes you question democracy as it currently operates.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2020)

Classic updating of the Dolchstosslegende/stab in the back narrative for modern times, the same as the german far-right did after WW1 with the unions in the role of jews and teachers in the role of the abandoned soldiery, in order to pressure teachers into publicly 'breaking' with the cowardly unions/back stabbers and effect a split between workers and unions with view to helping the wider and longer term plans they (the mail etc) will be supporting and looking to further. Teachers need to be potential heroes in that narrative. Until they join the back-stabbers. The public are to play their role too in clapping on their boys and girls with, if not with_ kindling eye,_ at least with the odd white feather.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> Mail comments today are all about the feckless teachers lying on their sofas eating Pringles because they’re selfish and hate Britain.



The bastards! I don't pay my taxes!


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Bit confused by your last question. Do you mean that everyone and the Gov wants to get back to work, but not if exposure to risk is above that of stopping at home?



I don't think Bojo and crew are able to choose, but yes I do think that everyone else wants to work but only if it doesn't put them at risk of contracting the virus. 





> If so then of course going back to work or school will involve an increase in risk. The argument is about to what degree and when. Accepting no increased risk is unrealistic?



Yes it is unrealistic to think that the only way to return to work is when there is zero risk to ourselves or others. 





> Our country, and countries around the world, are heading for the biggest economic recession of a decade, maybe a generation, possibly even of a century. Businesses are going to start to collapse really pretty quickly, and with them jobs. Is that really not something you and other people here want to see prevented?



Of course. I'm just not acclimatised to the idea of that risk. How much there is etc. But mainly I'm reluctant because I don't trust Bojo and I don't believe that this return is driven by a public health agenda. Health, of course, has been negatively affected by the lockdown and all of the above has had a hand in that. Another wave of the virus will only add to the issues. 





> If you want to prevent it, something needs to be done. The Government isn’t going to be able to bail out every business, or furlough pay at 80% indefinitely.
> 
> Maybe June is too early to reopen some school classes. But maybe with some sense of proportion (such as with PPE if that’s thought to do anything, and staggered class sizes etc) it isn’t.



Agreed.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I'll drop this but it says Magnificent Staff v Militant Unions.
> 
> They don't hate teachers, they hate unions, or unionised teachers. They urge teachers to be "better than that"



What percentage of teachers do you think are union members? The Mail's distinction is semantic and crudely designed to create a political effect.

And just for a little more perspective on what is actually happening in schools, at my partners workplace they are currently open for a little over 10% of their pupil population (vulnerable children and the children of key workers). Maintaining physical distancing between this amount of kids is hard work, as is keeping the school environment safe for them.

The vast majority of teachers and their well supported unions, are more concerned about the safety and educational opportunities of their pupils than the leaders of this Conservative government. The government's call for the return of reception and year 1 children has a very clear economic driver that's their priority, that is what they have chosen. Some explicit honesty about it would good; but I won't hold my breath.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

alex_ said:


> Assume teachers for some reason are unable to get covid from anywhere other than at schools ?


 We all have a chance of getting it anywhere we go... Which is why most of us have been in lockdown to lesser and greater degrees. Now, teachers going back into schools with all those kids and other staff, why are you completely ignoring the increased risk they will be exposed to?


----------



## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

Surely children with SEN, IEPs or on the at-risk register can be prioritised for a return to school, no matter what year they're in, without planning to open all schools up? After all, some specialist SEN schools have stayed open the whole time due to balancing up the risks of staying open and being closed. 

So it's not like there's a black and white choice between "send all the kids back and let granny die" and "let all vulnerable kids completely lose the ability to read and have no life at all and basically let's write them off forever because they've missed a few months of school." 



andysays said:


> Let's be clear, nowhere have I said you shouldn't express an opinion.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that your eagerness for people to go back to work to help the economy, at whatever risk to them and those around them, appears to me to be closely related to your membership of the capitalist class and willingness to put the need of that class for increased profit above all else, including the safety of workers.
> 
> You carry on posting this stuff and I'll carry on commenting on it.



Er, you really seem to have made some enormous assumptions based on the fact that someone has a wealthy boyfriend.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Surely children with SEN, IEPs or on the at-risk register can be prioritised for a return to school, no matter what year they're in, without planning to open all schools up?



They are.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

I'm a TA in a town so badly hit by Coronavirus it has been all over the news. Been going into work to look after key workers kids. Social distancing been impossible- kids constantly running and grabbing each other, dancing together etc. A child's spit went into my eye when I was talking to them, a child with autism keeps climbing onto my lap and I have to remove them.  It is impossible to be two metres away when trying to explain a problem on the schoolwork app on the iPad. They all had their own pencils, ended up swapping them, dropping them. They STILL don't wash their hands when coming back from loo, come in with felt tip on hands from previous day. They cough, sneeze, dribble with gay abandon. I have been with a team of up to four staff desperately trying to monitor these kids into social distancing and there has always been under 15 kids who have a larger classroom than normal and the constant run of a large outside area.
 Good luck next month. The keyworker children will now not be allowed outside as will distract the others who have to come in and take part in proper lessons ( we are not allowed to do this with keyworker kids) The most vulnerable kids have not been in because if you are an abuser of a child or something is going wrong in your household, far easier to keep them inside away from prying eyes and questions and they will not be forced into school from June. Our classrooms have been arranged to be as sterile as possible but still kids do kid stuff- especially when bored as so much germ harbouring stuff has been packed away. It would be a joke if it wasn't so fucking terrifying what is about to happen. We can't control nits let alone an invisible killer virus.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 16, 2020)

Has anyone mentioned that the BMA have agreed with the teachers' unions?

more here (intentionally posting link from Metro to avoid accusations of posting a liberal / left wing source)

presume the nasty BMA is trying to stop doctors being heroes and treating more sick people...


----------



## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> They are.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I very the impression that's only the case in some schools in some areas. Otherwise kebabKing's wife's vulnerable students wouldn't be stuck at home in a "rape den." Though it sounds like there are some serious failures in duty of care towards that kid that go far beyond not having school for two months.


----------



## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I very the impression that's only the case in some schools in some areas. Otherwise kebabKing's wife's vulnerable students wouldn't be stuck at home in a "rape den." Though it sounds like there are some serious failures in duty of care towards that kid that go far beyond not having school for two months.


Some children with autism have reacted very badly to being in such a changed setting with different staff/ peers/timetables etc. Staff have been ringing vulnerable pupils and making daily house visits to homes that have not engaged. Like I said in previous post, those most in danger may not come back in June because the parents/carers have an excuse not to send them and risk anything being disclosed.


----------



## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

cyberfairy said:


> Some children with autism have reacted very badly to being in such a changed setting with different staff/ peers/timetables etc. Staff have been ringing vulnerable pupils and making daily house visits to homes that have not engaged. Like I said in previous post, those most in danger may not come back in June because the parents/carers have an excuse not to send them and risk anything being disclosed.



Agreed, but a lot of kids with SEN _would_ be sent in, or, for the older ones, might be able to come in under their own steam. I mean, otherwise they wouldn't be coming to school in non-corona times either. It's not like there's no point making school available to them. KebabKing's post made it sounds as though, where he lives, the kids now don't even have the option of going in to school. And he claims they haven't had any contact, let alone daily home visits. Therefore completely reopening schools is the only option.


----------



## Mattym (May 16, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> They are.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I'm not so sure that they are. Certainly not at our place. I think the pupils on the 'at risk/vulnerable' register were all offered in school provision but only about 10% accepted, so the rest have been at home & the need is to get those pupils back in to school as soon as is safely possible and should be prioritised over concentrating on a specific year group.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Er, you really seem to have made some enormous assumptions based on the fact that someone has a wealthy boyfriend.


Totally fair assumption i think - nothing in the world would lead me to be able to have a romantic relationship with someone who "owns some factories in china". Takes two to tango


----------



## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Totally fair assumption i think - nothing in the world would lead me to be able to have a romantic relationship with someone who "owns some factories in china". Takes two to tango



It doesn't mean that person is also automatically really rich and has loads of employees. "Membership of the capitalist class," FFS.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> It doesn't mean that person is also automatically really rich and has loads of employees. "Membership of the capitalist class," FFS.


owning some factories is the capitalist class, of course it is. the clue is in the words "owning some factories"


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What percentage of teachers do you think are union members? The Mail's distinction is semantic and crudely designed to create a political effect.
> 
> And just for a little more perspective on what is actually happening in schools, at my partners workplace they are currently open for a little over 10% of their pupil population (vulnerable children and the children of key workers). Maintaining physical distancing between this amount of kids is hard work, as is keeping the school environment safe for them.
> 
> ...



The thing is, some explicit honesty would be hugely welcome. There is an argument to be made, as seen on this thread, about jobs and economics with regards to returning to work. An honest argument. There would be a lot of honest support for that argument. The Tories won't make it because they are lost in their lies and can't even begin to approach honesty.


----------



## Athos (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> owning some factories is the capitalist class, of course it is. the clue is in the words "owning some factories"



Dating a capitalist doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to sell your labour power to survive, though.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

Athos said:


> Dating a capitalist doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to sell your labour power to survive, though.


i know what Edie does for a living. Its a question of personal ideology...you have to be able to respect someone in a relationship


----------



## Red Cat (May 16, 2020)

It's a bit weird the way the thread has moved around with the finger pointing now focused on a poster's romantic relationship.


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Bit confused by your last question. Do you mean that everyone and the Gov wants to get back to work, but not if exposure to risk is above that of stopping at home?
> 
> If so then of course going back to work or school will involve an increase in risk. The argument is about to what degree and when. Accepting no increased risk is unrealistic?
> 
> ...



If the only way to save our economic model is to send workers to their death...then we need a different economic model.


----------



## Raheem (May 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> If the only way to save our economic model is to send workers to their death...then we need a different economic model.


Would be nice if that was how it worked.


----------



## Athos (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i know what Edie does for a living. Its a question of personal ideology...you have to be able to respect someone in a relationship



Class is a relationship to the means of production, not an ideology.


----------



## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> owning some factories is the capitalist class, of course it is. the clue is in the words "owning some factories"



If dating someone who owned factories automatically made you an owner of those factories then the world would be a rather different place. 

And it's a bit shit of a few people here to define someone purely by their dating choices. Nice easy way to shut down an opposing point of view I guess.


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> They are.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



...and have been for the entire lockdown.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

Athos said:


> Class is a relationship to the means of production, not an ideology.


thanks for the lesson


scifisam said:


> And it's a bit shit of a few people here to define someone purely by their dating choices.


that hasnt happened
dating choices very revealing though - explain a lot


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

Really irrelevant to current discussion.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Really irrelevant to current discussion.


agreed


----------



## Athos (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> thanks for the lesson



No problem. Presumably you accept she's not a capitalist (by virtue of ideology or romantic relationship), now?


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

Argue the points. I disagree with (some of) you, but I notice no one on your team is getting their private life picked over.

And ftr I’ve hardly hidden that my politics are centre right. It’s not a surprise.


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Argue the points. I disagree with (some of) you, but I notice no one on your team is getting their private life picked over.
> 
> And ftr I’ve hardly hidden that my politics are centre right. It’s not a surprise.



I don't think we should be picking over your private life.

But, it's not possible to separate material interests from political decisions.

Recognising that is important.


----------



## Athos (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Argue the points. I disagree with (some of) you, but I notice no one on your team is getting their private life picked over.



Whilst I disagree with Ska that your relationship/ideology makes you a capitalist, like any of us, your material circumstances may be relevant to your position on this question.  If you love a capitalist, you have more reason to welcome a resumption of a free market than, say, someone whose interests are unequivocally aligned with workers'. That's not really picking over your private life.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

Athos said:


> No problem. Presumably you accept she's not a capitalist (by virtue of ideology or romantic relationship), now?


A person clearly subscribes ideologically to capitalism if they date a factory owner, otherwise they would be disgusted by their partner.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Argue the points. I disagree with (some of) you, but I notice no one on your team is getting their private life picked over.
> 
> And ftr I’ve hardly hidden that my politics are centre right. It’s not a surprise.



I don't think your dating choices should be picked over fwiw. I do though think others are making a link between your politics and your dating choices.

It's true for all of us IMO.


----------



## Athos (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A person clearly subscribes ideologically to capitalism if they date a factory owner, otherwise they would be disgusted by their partner.



A worker who believes that capitalism is the ideal mode of production remains a worker (albeit a wrongheaded head one).  Their class remains defined by their material position.  I think it's politically counterproductive to lose sight of that.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A person clearly subscribes ideologically to capitalism if they date a factory owner, otherwise they would be disgusted by their partner.


I think you are actually mental for thinking that. And so far removed from how the majority of people think in this country it’s kind of jaw dropping.

Plus also the fucking hipocrasy of this place is unreal. It’s a fucking middle class lefty bulletin board. I would imagine most (over 50%) have been to uni, I would imagine most of you work in _capitalist_ jobs which include jobs like working in publishing, in law, free lancing, in web design, copy writing, translating, in music, in the arts, in running your own business etc. For you all to sit there and feel superior about your relationship to the means of production is so lacking in insight, my _relationship_ to the means of production is probably just a shit load more honest than yours. I’m going to have a garden now.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 16, 2020)

Mattym said:


> I'm not so sure that they are. Certainly not at our place. I think the pupils on the 'at risk/vulnerable' register were all offered in school provision but only about 10% accepted, so the rest have been at home & the need is to get those pupils back in to school as soon as is safely possible and should be prioritised over concentrating on a specific year group.



My experience is that they are. The alternative is compulsion. I entirely agree with you that priority should be on a needs  basis.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

It's a structural relationship not a moral one.

Edit: to Edie


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

This has all gone very _Urban._



Edie said:


> I think you are actually mental for thinking that.



Classy.



> I’m going to have a garden now.



Fascist.

Right, can we all get back to reopening schools now? Oh, no, actually we can't. Christ this message board stuff is confusing.


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> This has all gone very _Urban._
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thing is, the whole spat with Edie does point to a crucial factor in school re-opening. 

In whose material interests is it? And what are the material interests of those pushing for it/opposing it?

Looked at in those terms it's pretty stark what's going on.


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Thing is, the whole spat with Edie does point to a crucial factor in school re-opening.
> 
> In whose material interests is it? And what are the material interests of those pushing for it/opposing it?
> 
> Looked at in those terms it's pretty stark what's going on.



Of course. I just don't think we needed the distraction of debating this via the medium of Edie's love life.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> I think you are actually mental for thinking that. And so far removed from how the majority of people think in this country it’s kind of jaw dropping.
> 
> Plus also the fucking hipocrasy of this place is unreal. It’s a fucking middle class lefty bulletin board. I would imagine most (over 50%) have been to uni, I would imagine most of you work in _capitalist_ jobs which include jobs like working in publishing, in law, free lancing, in web design, copy writing, translating, in music, in the arts, in running your own business etc. For you all to sit there and feel superior about your relationship to the means of production is so lacking in insight, my _relationship_ to the means of production is probably just a shit load more honest than yours. I’m going to have a garden now.



I am a postman. My partner is a teacher. My son is an apprentice  PE assistant/lifeguard at a school. My daughter is a temp contract school bursar. You should have bothered to spellcheck hypocrisy.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Athos (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Plus also the fucking hipocrasy of this place is unreal. It’s a fucking middle class lefty bulletin board. I would imagine most (over 50%) have been to uni, I would imagine most of you work in _capitalist_ jobs which include jobs like working in publishing, in law, free lancing, in web design, copy writing, translating, in music, in the arts, in running your own business etc. For you all to sit there and feel superior about your relationship to the means of production is so lacking in insight, my _relationship_ to the means of production is probably just a shit load more honest than yours. I’m going to have a garden now.



What matters is class; that's not whether or not someone's been to university or works in a particular sector (and the idea of a "capitalist job" doesn't really make sense), but whether or not someone has to sell their labour to live, or can live on the surplus value of the labour of others (by virtue of owning the means if production e.g. factories).  That's not a matter of "honesty"; it's just a material fact (not a cause for superiority one way or the other).

And it's by that measure that I consider you a fellow worker (and not a capitalist as some others here seem to), albeit I profoundly disagree with your seeming prioritisation of the interests of capital over those of workers in this instance.  Whilst I don't think it fair to go into ther details of your personal life, I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder whether your position is informed by your relationship with a factory owner.


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> think you are actually mental for thinking that.


Wow!
Granted, your personal life is being used which may be upsetting, but from a nurse that's very low bar.


----------



## clicker (May 16, 2020)

Pre covid, schools were routinely sending out 'there is a suspected chicken pox case/ nits are rife' messages to parents and carers. Come September, schools ordinarily see an increase in 'normal'  coughs etc , just due to so many kids mingling .

I understand it's been suggested temperatures will be taken as each child comes to school. If, as is bound to happen in a 'normal ' September, a kid presents with a raised temperature, what happens next?

In an ideal world the child can be tested for covid. How long will be the wait for the results? 2 days? What will the school do in the meantime? Do they message parents and carers? Immediately shut the school? Do nothing and hope?


----------



## Thora (May 16, 2020)

clicker said:


> Pre covid, schools were routinely sending out 'there is a suspected chicken pox case/ nits are rife' messages to parents and carers. Come September, schools ordinarily see an increase in 'normal'  coughs etc , just due to so many kids mingling .
> 
> I understand it's been suggested temperatures will be taken as each child comes to school. If, as is bound to happen in a 'normal ' September, a kid presents with a raised temperature, what happens next?
> 
> In an ideal world the child can be tested for covid. How long will be the wait for the results? 2 days? What will the school do in the meantime? Do they message parents and carers? Immediately shut the school? Do nothing and hope?


Schools don't have to take temperatures, but I guess if they do and find a child has a raised temp they will send them away.
If a child have suspected covid symptoms they have to go home for 7 days and will be eligible for a test.  The rest of their class and teacher goes home for 14 days unless the first child's test comes back negative.


----------



## seventh bullet (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> I think you are actually mental for thinking that. And so far removed from how the majority of people think in this country it’s kind of jaw dropping.
> 
> Plus also the fucking hipocrasy of this place is unreal. It’s a fucking middle class lefty bulletin board. I would imagine most (over 50%) have been to uni, I would imagine most of you work in _capitalist_ jobs which include jobs like working in publishing, in law, free lancing, in web design, copy writing, translating, in music, in the arts, in running your own business etc. For you all to sit there and feel superior about your relationship to the means of production is so lacking in insight, my _relationship_ to the means of production is probably just a shit load more honest than yours. I’m going to have a garden now.



Prolier than thou warning: I grew up poor, come from a manual working class background with no history of university education, never been myself and likely never will, spent the best part of two decades working unskilled in the retail sector. Of course we we don't get clapped for by everyone on a Thursday (thoughts are mainly with frontline medical staff, which I don't begrudge necessarily), or get given adequate PPE,  but take the risk and still treated like shit by entitled customers. 

I don't think you're evil, or take a moral stance wrt your personal life, but I also see the class background of others and their political reasonings, by no means deterministic but neverthess having a strong meditating influence, like wanting, no needing, to get people of my class to risk their lives to help maintain their own positions, like capitalist factory owners for example. I do, though, think a start to a better world would be their exappropriation, and people like them.


----------



## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> Schools don't have to take temperatures, but I guess if they do and find a child has a raised temp they will send them away.
> If a child have suspected covid symptoms they have to go home for 7 days and will be eligible for a test.  The rest of their class and teacher goes home for 14 days unless the first child's test comes back negative.


And sadly not easy to send away a kid- those in KS2 often come in on their own and can't be sent away sick on their own to a potentially empty house. If a child starts to feel poorly at school then at the best of times it is so hard to get a parent to pick them up quickly. We are planning  using the disabled toilet as an isolation room in an emergency- wrong on so many levels.


----------



## nyxx (May 16, 2020)

If the disabled toilet is being used as an isolation room how do the disabled people use a toilet? I’m sure that’s not the only issue... just the most glaring one...


----------



## philosophical (May 16, 2020)

I reckon the situation at present in the House of Commons chamber should be replicated as close as possible in classrooms.
Goose and Gander style.


----------



## campanula (May 16, 2020)

Nurseries are also opening...a very clear push for restoring childcare with no consideration for children or staff...since it is frankly laughable that social distancing can be arranged with 18month old toddlers! And, it is not at all clear whether my shielded D-i-L will be made to return to work on June 1st...but I am frantic with worry, and raging at the various arguments...particularly the whole heroic, duty of care, sacrificial service shite.
Yesterday, she was filming an outdoor yoga class for tinies, has read bedtime stories every evening, has engaged with her kids as much as possible..


----------



## seeformiles (May 16, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Generally break up for the summer last Friday in June and go back around the 18th of August.
> I don't know why they're different tbh. Some sort of agricultural reason probably. But June/July generally have much nicer weather in Scotland than August does, as anyone who's been to the Edinburgh Festival will attest.



Crikey - in N.Ireland we got (& still get) all of July and August off. When I heard that elsewhere in the UK it was less than our cherished 9 weeks, living in NI didn’t seem so bad after all


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.



That is the most difficult thing to assess.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> Is a 2m distance really going to make much difference if you are spending 6 hours in a room with them anyway?



Unless you are deploying full PPE, no, it isn't.


----------



## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

I'm just having a rant now to myself as had such a stressful week despite obviously not been at work and sat back eating Pringles at the tax payers expense according to the Daily Mail- The year six group being sent back is ridiculous as the summer term for year six is a pain- they are big fish in a small pond, want to move on and embarrassed by being with the little kids. There are no SATS this year so they will just be treading water- if there was really joined up thinking about kids being in school then it would make more sense for them to experience their new secondary school. Reception is mostly about hands on experiences so how the hell can they learn not being hands on? Most of my school have classes of 31 so splitting classes impossible thus children won't be in all day every day so how will that help parents work? The staff at my school love the kids and want them back but not at a point where the school is dangerous for staff and kids and a scary experience for all concerned- how much education will actually happen in these circumstances where many kids won't be sent in anyway and will lose out even more? You walk into a school classroom and there is a warm fug of a lot of small bodies in an enclosed space. One child not displaying symptoms can infect a whole room very quickly. We have windows that can only be opened a small amount. In a shop, a small amount of people pop in and out very quickly and the staff are behind a perspex screen. And children are not allowed in. But they are now allowed to all sit in a classroom coughing and sneezing for hours and there is no way a teacher can not distance themselves from a child. If they fall over in the playground, we will pick them up. If a child in reception is poorly, they will be comforted. It is our job but we should not become martyrs for it because it should not start happening now when infections are still rising. I will shut up now.


----------



## Thora (May 16, 2020)

cyberfairy said:


> I'm just having a rant now to myself as had such a stressful week despite obviously not been at work and sat back eating Pringles at the tax payers expense according to the Daily Mail- The year six group being sent back is ridiculous as the summer term for year six is a pain- they are big fish in a small pond, want to move on and embarrassed by being with the little kids. There are no SATS this year so they will just be treading water- if there was really joined up thinking about kids being in school then it would make more sense for them to experience their new secondary school. Reception is mostly about hands on experiences so how the hell can they sit on separate tables not being hands on? Most of my school have classes of 31 so splitting classes impossible thus children won't be in all day every day so how will that help parents work? The staff at my school love the kids and want them back but not at a point where the school is dangerous for staff and kids and a scary experience for all concerned- how much education will actually happen in these circumstances where many kids won't be sent in anyway and will lose out even more? You walk into a school classroom and there is a warm fug of a lot of small bodies in an enclosed space. One child not displaying symptoms can infect a whole room very quickly. We have windows that can only be opened a small amount. In a shop, a small amount of people pop in and out very quickly and the staff are behind a perspex screen. And children are not allowed in. But they are now allowed to all sit in a classroom coughing and sneezing for hours and there is no way a teacher can not distance themselves from a child. If they fall over in the playground, we will pick them up. If a child in reception is poorly, they will be comforted. It is our job but we should not become martyrs for it because it should not start happening now when infections are still rising. I will shut up now.


Reception children aren't expected to sit at desks and they aren't expected to distance from each other or from the teacher.  They can still play as usual, just toys that are difficult to clean need to be removed and messy/malleable play needs to be individual not shared.


----------



## nogojones (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> And ftr I’ve hardly hidden that my politics are centre right. It’s not a surprise.


This. Your views lent towards the right before you started a romantic realtionship with Scrooge McDuck, So I don't think he's the reason you're cool with sending untold numbers of workers to their deaths


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

Mattym said:


> Very few teachers would disagree with that, when it's safe to do so.



What do we do with regard to education (amongst other things) if this bloody plague simply doesn't subside? 

The one thing that jumps out in the stats is how little there is of a constant pattern. cases and deaths drop for a couple of days, then rise again.

One of the things that the government has failed on is a lack of real time reporting. There is no reason why the cases and deaths figure cannot be updated hourly. Every Tuesday we see the weekend spike.


----------



## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

nyxx said:


> If the disabled toilet is being used as an isolation room how do the disabled people use a toilet? I’m sure that’s not the only issue... just the most glaring one...


The children in question that most need it will hopefully be shielding at home due to their conditions (talking about specific cases in my school not generally) but you never know what parents decisions will be and it is a very small windowless room. For kids who might sneeze or who say they feel poorly? Kids say they feel sick all the time at primary school, it will be more prevalent I suspect when they are used to being at home and not in a strange new environment with segregated desks etc. Can't take risks though and the children will have to be monitored by a skeleton staff because we are not all Amazonian Young Ladies the media portray us as- many staff will be shielding for a long time and many are obese, asthmatic etc


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## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> That would have to be additional risk. Pupils will still be passing it on and subject to risk even if schools are closed. Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway. The exercise aspect is also a concern. One of the main factors in covid deaths is obesity. It is not safe to be at home doing fuck all for month after month. 1 month maybe but as we approach month three the risk of inaction grows significantly.



Thanks for that Kenny, nice to know that my 48 years and Mrs Sas's 51 years of tax and NI contributions are so well appreciated.

I've mellowed greatly with age, but I really want to punch you on the nose.


----------



## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> Reception children aren't expected to sit at desks and they aren't expected to distance from each other or from the teacher.  They can still play as usual, just toys that are difficult to clean need to be removed and messy/malleable play needs to be individual not shared.


Thanks, good to know- didn't meant to lump in Reception kids with sitting at desks as obviously they don't normally-been told no circle time etc for them etc. Trying to police it will be fun- had to confiscate some blu-tak yesterday that  had been discovered somewhere and shared and caused great excitement.


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## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

.


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## nogojones (May 16, 2020)

nyxx said:


> If the disabled toilet is being used as an isolation room how do the disabled people use a toilet? I’m sure that’s not the only issue... just the most glaring one...


They'll all be dead so so why worry


Sasaferrato said:


> Thanks for that Kenny, nice to know that my 48 years and Mrs Sas's 51 years of tax and NI contributions are so well appreciated.
> 
> I've mellowed greatly with age, but I really want to punch you on the nose.


Just get in that coffin you old cunt and stop moaning


----------



## Mattym (May 16, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> What do we do with regard to education (amongst other things) if this bloody plague simply doesn't subside?
> 
> The one thing that jumps out in the stats is how little there is of a constant pattern. cases and deaths drop for a couple of days, then rise again.
> 
> One of the things that the government has failed on is a lack of real time reporting. There is no reason why the cases and deaths figure cannot be updated hourly. Every Tuesday we see the weekend spike.



I know. It's massively concerning and I can only see what I will call 'distracted teaching and learning' taking place in schools (and equivalent phrases for different workplaces) until more is known/ a potential vaccine discovered and rolled out.


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## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Thanks for that Kenny, nice to know that my 48 years and Mrs Sas's 51 years of tax and NI contributions are so well appreciated.
> 
> I've mellowed greatly with age, but I really want to punch you on the nose.



Not sure why the fact you may have paid tax for 48 years gives you the right to wish to deny a child a schooling which you presumably received at a time when polio and small pox was prevalent.


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## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

.


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## Thora (May 16, 2020)

cyberfairy said:


> Thanks, good to know- didn't meant to lump in Reception kids with sitting at desks as obviously they don't normally-been told no circle time etc for them etc. Trying to police it will be fun- had to confiscate some blu-tak yesterday that  had been discovered somewhere and shared and caused great excitement.


Anything like no circle times will be down to individual schools.  The DfE guidelines say social distancing is unlikely to be possible for any early years and primary children.


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## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> Anything like no circle times will be down to individual schools.  The DfE guidelines say social distancing is unlikely to be possible for any early years and primary children.


That's why it seems to be such a ludicrous idea to send them back first- If it had to be done I would think year 2 going up to year 3 would be more important as such a transition and they often struggle with the increased workload


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## Thora (May 16, 2020)

cyberfairy said:


> That's why it seems to be such a ludicrous idea to send them back first- If it had to be done I would think year 2 going up to year 3 would be more important as such a transition and they often struggle with the increased workload


I think the decision about early years and Year 1 going back first was more driven by childcare than educational concerns.


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## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

.


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## andysays (May 16, 2020)

Athos said:


> No problem. Presumably you accept she's not a capitalist (by virtue of ideology or romantic relationship), now?





nogojones said:


> This. Your views lent towards the right before you started a romantic realtionship with Scrooge McDuck, So I don't think he's the reason you're cool with sending untold numbers of workers to their deaths


Yeah, I apologise if I gave the impression that I thought Edie's willingness to send everyone back to work and dismiss people's concerns about the seriousness of the dangers of Covid was* caused* by her relationship with the owner of a number of factories in China, the Philippines and elsewhere.

That would be a ridiculously simplistic and deterministic view. Looking at her posting history, her embrace of capitalist ideology clearly predates her embracing of this particular capitalist.


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## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> A pointless point?


No, I quoted the wrong person.


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## kebabking (May 16, 2020)

Interesting to see how it's being implemented in different locations...

Mrs K's school has decided to only do Y6, no reception and no Y1. The head has sent out a letter and FAQ, and she's not being remotely subtle about her message: don't send them, it will be shit.

The kids school has sent out a letter and FAQ. They are doing Reception, Y1 and Y6, and while the conditions under which they'll do it are similar, the message is far less 'it will be shit, don't send them'.

Ours, Reception and Y4, won't be going in: some of that is selfish, if they don't go into school they will be able to meet and stay (eventually) with grandparents without transmission risk, some is a lack of need (I'm WFH, Mrs K will be in 2 or 3 days a week, and of course Mrs K is a primary teacher, so we can give them a decent education at home), and some is about making more room for those who don't have the advantages that we do.


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## Edie (May 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> That would be a ridiculously simplistic and deterministic view. Looking at her posting history, her embrace of capitalist ideology clearly predates her embracing of this particular capitalist.


You are creepy af.


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## Thora (May 16, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Interesting to see how it's being implemented in different locations...
> 
> Mrs K's school has decided to only do Y6, no reception and no Y1. The head has sent out a letter and FAQ, and she's not being remotely subtle about her message: don't send them, it will be shit.
> 
> ...


My younger children's school is only opening to Year 1 and Reception (not Nursery) and only offering 2 days a week.  Although they have said essentially attendance is optional, they have also said those years will no longer get any online teaching or home learning to protect teacher workloads.
It's a good school though and I do trust they will make it a good experience for the children, as they have done with the keyworker children.


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## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)




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## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> I think you are actually mental for thinking that. And so far removed from how the majority of people think in this country it’s kind of jaw dropping.



The majority of the people who voted in the last election did not vote Tory.  I think that speaks to how the majority of people think.


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## Athos (May 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> ... Edie 's willingness to send everyone back to work and dismiss people's concerns about the seriousness of the dangers of Covid...



I disagree with her on this issue, but think you're getting into the realms of hyperbole with this.  Also, whilst I've agree that Edie's political position might be infomed (if not determined) by her personal relationships, and whilst she's openly said she's politially "centre right", it's worth bearing in mind that there might be non-political factors at play, too.  Don't forget she's on the 'front line' all day, with minial PPE; for many people, that'd probably a significant driver for downplaying the risks of COVID, if only for the purposes of self-reassurance.


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## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Thanks for that Kenny, nice to know that my 48 years and Mrs Sas's 51 years of tax and NI contributions are so well appreciated.
> 
> I've mellowed greatly with age, but I really want to punch you on the nose.



And I haven't paid anywhere near as much NI, but still don't think I should be written off at 44 just because my underlying health conditions mean that getting corona probably won't go well for me.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.


you do like your hyperbollocks


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## eatmorecheese (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> That would have to be additional risk. Pupils will still be passing it on and subject to risk even if schools are closed. Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway. The exercise aspect is also a concern. One of the main factors in covid deaths is obesity. It is not safe to be at home doing fuck all for month after month. 1 month maybe but as we approach month three the risk of inaction grows significantly.



You can play political and economic expediency games with yourself and yours. But not with my life and those I love and my community. 

This isn't a game.


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## Wilf (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> That would have to be additional risk. Pupils will still be passing it on and subject to risk even if schools are closed. Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway. The exercise aspect is also a concern. One of the main factors in covid deaths is obesity. It is not safe to be at home doing fuck all for month after month. 1 month maybe but as we approach month three the risk of inaction grows significantly.


My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.


----------



## Red Cat (May 16, 2020)

I think it's really odd to be analysing Edie. Like the rest of us, there'll be conscious and unconscious and material factors involved in her politics.

I think it's a distraction from our own worries about getting ill and dying and the consequences of an economic crisis - an emergency has the potential to open up opportunities for alternative ways of organising but we may see more brutal political responses in which the scapegoating and vilification of unionised teachers is but a step to something far worse.

There's plenty to think about without individualising it.


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.



My sympathy for your loss Wilf


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## redsquirrel (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that.


Ahh shit really sorry to hear that mate. Condolences


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## bimble (May 16, 2020)

sorry for your loss Wilf .


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## frogwoman (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.



Very sorry to hear that.


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## oryx (May 16, 2020)

Sorry to read about your mum, Wilf .


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## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

Oh Wilf 

That's so sad


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## eatmorecheese (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.


 So sorry mate.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.


very sorry to hear this ((((Wilf))))


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## Athos (May 16, 2020)

Condolences Wilf.


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## Red Cat (May 16, 2020)

Sorry for your loss Wilf


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## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

I can't imagine how bad that must feel Wilf in these times. Big love.


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## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

Condolences Wilf


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## Calamity1971 (May 16, 2020)

Sorry for your loss ((Wilf )) x


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## SpackleFrog (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths).



Really sorry to hear this Wilf that's awful. So sorry for your loss comrade.


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## Wilf (May 16, 2020)

Thanks All. There are probably more appropriate threads on here to mention a loved one's death. Yeah, actually I wish I hadn't mentioned it on this one. But when you see comments like the one that set this off, well, you remember that politics is personal and is real flesh and blood. Anyway, that's set me off blubbing again. But thanks for all the nice comments.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 16, 2020)

(((( Wilf ))))


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## cyberfairy (May 16, 2020)

Sorry to hear that Wilf


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## kebabking (May 16, 2020)

I'm sorry to read that Wilf, I really am.


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## brogdale (May 16, 2020)

So sorry to hear about your loss Wilf


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## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Not sure why the fact you may have paid tax for 48 years gives you the right to wish to deny a child a schooling which you presumably received at a time when polio and small pox was prevalent.



I don't recall denying anyone anything, but of course being so old and disposable I might have.

What angers me is your subtext, which is effectively, old people don't matter, so if they die it doesn't matter, because they were about to die anyway.

I would point out that the nearly a century of payments that Mrs Sas and me made, in their modest way contributed to the overall welfare of the nation. I strongly object to being regarded as disposable by some young whippersnapper who is probably still wet behind the bloody ears.


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## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.



I'm so sorry to hear this. Absolutely dreadful that you weren't able to be there. This fucking plague is beyond awful.


----------



## Wilf (May 16, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> I'm so sorry to hear this. Absolutely dreadful that you weren't able to be there. This fucking plague is beyond awful.


Thanks. And yes it is, fucking awful.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Not sure why the fact you may have paid tax for 48 years gives you the right to wish to deny a child a schooling which you presumably received at a time when polio and small pox was prevalent.


Nobody - literally nobody - wants to “deny a child a schooling” you silly fucking prick.


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## seventh bullet (May 16, 2020)

Sorry for your loss Wilf and that you couldn't be there with her.


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## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

Spoke with my late seventies parents a few minutes ago and they were keen for schools to be re-opened. Not that two peoples views account for much but the selfishness expressed by some (albeit disguised by foul tirades and failed attempts at personal attacks) on this thread fortunately does not fully reflect a generation.


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Nobody - literally nobody - wants to “deny a child a schooling” you silly fucking prick.



Right. Presumably arguing against schools re-opening won't stop children getting to school?


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

Very noticeable who hasn't had the basic fucking manners to offer condolences for a major loss


----------



## nogojones (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Spoke with my late seventies parents a few minutes ago and they were keen for schools to be re-opened. Not that two peoples views account for much but the selfishness expressed by some (albeit disguised by foul tirades and failed attempts at personal attacks) on this thread fortunately does not fully reflect a generation.


fuck off ya cunt


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## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

kenny g Your parents teachers? TAs, dinner staff, school admin? Have they been observing the lockdown?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Right. Presumably arguing against schools re-opening won't stop children getting to school?


It’s a simple place your world, isn’t it?


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## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

Selfish for not wanting to get ill, possibly die and take others along. State of it


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> kenny g Your parents teachers? TAs, dinner staff, school admin? Have they been observing the lockdown?


Yeh, in their late seventies they are teachers? What are you on about? And yes, they have been observing the lockdown as one of them is extremely vulnerable.


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Selfish for not wanting to get ill, possibly die and take others along. State of it



Selfish for saying children shouldn't be able to attend their schools
.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

What good am I to those kids if I'm in the fucking hospital. Let alone my own kids


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 16, 2020)

Sheer hypocrisy. Disgusting.


----------



## Wilf (May 16, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> I'm so sorry to hear this. Absolutely dreadful that you weren't able to be there. This fucking plague is beyond awful.


Just a quick point so I don't give the wrong impression about the home. They'd told me she was worse two weeks ago so I came down (I live 100 miles away but have come down regularly for my Mum and Dad's Parkinson's for years) and spoke to her through the window. That didn't work well as the phone was out of sync with the sound of the physical convo. I then reverted to skype and ultimately went back home due to lack of broadband at my Mum's. Things went from a '1 to 2 months' estimate on Tuesday to getting a call yesterday morning that I should come down and would be allowed in to see her. I just happened to miss her by 90 minutes. I was allowed in to see her yesterday, even if too late and they'd previously said I could come in when she gets to the end, suitably masked and gowned, about 5 days ago. It's just the end came much quicker than expected.

I've had a bit of a gripe about how they managed her pain during lockdown and had to pressure them to get a GP in this week (who was brilliant by the way). But overall they've been wonderful and all done amid the stresses of lockdown, risking their lives and PPE shortages.  Sorry for all this detail and personal stuff, but this really is the bit our government don't give a shit about. So it might well be relevant to the this thread.


----------



## kebabking (May 16, 2020)

Like, but not like.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

Sorry Wilf Ive had some experience caring for loved ones at the end of their lives when their family cannot be there, and you can be absolutely reassured that they are cared for with the greatest tenderness and support in my experience. That’s not to say anyone can replace those loved at such a time. Take care.


----------



## Edie (May 16, 2020)

And fwiw I think you did right to interject


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Right. Presumably arguing against schools re-opening won't stop children getting to school?



There's more to schooling/education than physically being in a school.

And, conversely, physically being in a school is no guarantee of getting an education.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> If the only way to save our economic model is to send workers to their death...then we need a different economic model.



That's Capitalism, isn't it? I mean, not literally but it is what happens within it, in order for a few to profit. Like the betting, tobacco, alcohol industries, to name a few. They live off the misery of their customers and other's die to keep those industries in profit. Like clothes manufacturing in India. Like Grenfell tower and the cladding. People die so that others may profit.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Just a quick point so I don't give the wrong impression about the home. They'd told me she was worse two weeks ago so I came down (I live 100 miles away but have come down regularly for my Mum and Dad's Parkinson's for years) and spoke to her through the window. That didn't work well as the phone was out of sync with the sound of the physical convo. I then reverted to skype and ultimately went back home due to lack of broadband at my Mum's. Things went from a '1 to 2 months' estimate on Tuesday to getting a call yesterday morning that I should come down and would be allowed in to see her. I just happened to miss her by 90 minutes. I was allowed in to see her yesterday, even if too late and they'd previously said I could come in when she gets to the end, suitably masked and gowned, about 5 days ago. It's just the end came much quicker than expected.
> 
> I've had a bit of a gripe about how they managed her pain during lockdown and had to pressure them to get a GP in this week (who was brilliant by the way). But overall they've been wonderful and all done amid the stresses of lockdown, risking their lives and PPE shortages.  Sorry for all this detail and personal stuff, but this really is the bit our government don't give a shit about. So it might well be relevant to the this thread.



Losing your mother is probably the single most traumatic moment of your life. It just floors you. There is nothing I can say, I know that, but time does help.


----------



## Wilf (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Sorry Wilf Ive had some experience caring for loved ones at the end of their lives when their family cannot be there, and you can be absolutely reassured that they are cared for with the greatest tenderness and support in my experience. That’s not to say anyone can replace those loved at such a time. Take care.


Thanks Edie . And while I suspect we disagree about the substance of this thread, I think it's best if other posters leave your relationship out of the discussion.


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> There's more to schooling/education than physically being in a school.
> 
> And, conversely, physically being in a school is no guarantee of getting an education.



Yeh right. "I never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain. 

So let's close the schools maan...

Anyway, having been wished a punch on the nose, called a cunt, a prick and various other terms I am not sure this thread has shown some of its posters in their best light.

 I am afraid I didn't plan my first two-day weekend in a couple of months to be faced with this kind of play-ground vitriol. I have nursed my partner through covid and had a work mate get through covid with a temperature of 39.9 so am fully aware of the risks. 

   It is disappointing that some of those throwing the insults appear to have some kind of professional role in education when they quite obviously have missed out on the most basic learning process which is to hold a civil discussion with those who may happen to hold an opposing view. But worryingly I suspect I shouldn't have expected much better.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

If someone isn't here then we don't talk about them. Like irl.


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2020)

An old school friend has to stay at home and her kid might  not even be going back in september because the kid has cystic fibrosis and cannot leave the house. This thing doesn't only affect adults, what about all the vulnerable children who are risking their health or their parents health in going back to school?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Yeh right. "I never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain.
> 
> So let's close the schools maan...
> 
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.



Just catching up on this thread.

Really sorry to hear of your loss. Must have been dreadful not being able to see her.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Just a quick point so I don't give the wrong impression about the home. They'd told me she was worse two weeks ago so I came down (I live 100 miles away but have come down regularly for my Mum and Dad's Parkinson's for years) and spoke to her through the window. That didn't work well as the phone was out of sync with the sound of the physical convo. I then reverted to skype and ultimately went back home due to lack of broadband at my Mum's. Things went from a '1 to 2 months' estimate on Tuesday to getting a call yesterday morning that I should come down and would be allowed in to see her. I just happened to miss her by 90 minutes. I was allowed in to see her yesterday, even if too late and they'd previously said I could come in when she gets to the end, suitably masked and gowned, about 5 days ago. It's just the end came much quicker than expected.
> 
> I've had a bit of a gripe about how they managed her pain during lockdown and had to pressure them to get a GP in this week (who was brilliant by the way). But overall they've been wonderful and all done amid the stresses of lockdown, risking their lives and PPE shortages.  Sorry for all this detail and personal stuff, but this really is the bit our government don't give a shit about. So it might well be relevant to the this thread.



Not much to add except that I'm really sorry to hear this. There are good deaths and bad, for the dying and those left behind. Thinking of you and yours.


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> It is disappointing that some of those throwing the insults appear to have some kind of professional role in education when they quite obviously have missed out on the most basic learning process which is to hold a civil discussion with those who may happen to hold an opposing view. But worryingly I suspect I shouldn't have expected much better.



You expressed a view that my death wasn't of importance because I might be near the end of life anyway.

So get to fuck yer pompous twat.

And it's probably a good idea you don't know how teacher's speak in staff rooms.


----------



## andysays (May 16, 2020)

Condolences and best wishes Wilf


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> So get to fuck yer pompous twat



Well. I have moved from being a 'cunt' to a 'twat' in your vernacular within only 11 hours so something must be going right...


----------



## planetgeli (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Well. I have moved from being a 'cunt' to a 'twat' in your vernacular within only 11 hours so something must be going right...



I thought there was a watershed. I'm being considerate of your feelings.


----------



## scifisam (May 16, 2020)

Frogwoman - kids going back to school is voluntary, not mandatory. No fining for non-attendance. I think it's very unlikely that children with CFS or similar conditions would even be allowed to go back to school right now, especially if it's a mainstream school, but they certainly won't be obliged to.



planetgeli said:


> You expressed a view that my death wasn't of importance because I might be near the end of life anyway.
> 
> So get to fuck yer pompous twat.
> 
> And it's probably a good idea you don't know how teacher's speak in staff rooms.



Yep. Saying deaths are unimportant is way more offensive than calling someone bad names. Also, this _is_ Urban. 



Edie said:


> Sorry Wilf Ive had some experience caring for loved ones at the end of their lives when their family cannot be there, and you can be absolutely reassured that they are cared for with the greatest tenderness and support in my experience. That’s not to say anyone can replace those loved at such a time. Take care.



This. I know it's not the same, but when my Grandad died, it was at night, and he didn't have family around him, but a nurse held his hand, which was all he'd asked for. He knew we wanted to be there for him, and so did your mother. I suspect that even with corona, staff are continuing to be kind like that when someone passes. 

Hope you are able to have a funeral that helps you with a little of the grief.


----------



## nyxx (May 16, 2020)

Wow
Expressed the opinion that it’s too bad if thousands more elderly / vulnerable people die before their time because it’s inconvenient to protect them from a known deadly risk 

Spends the next 24 hours defending this heinous shit 

Comes back whining about the abuse he got for it

Just wow.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I am not sure this thread has shown some of its posters in their best light.....
> 
> ...... they quite obviously have missed out on the most basic learning process which is to hold a civil discussion with those who may happen to hold an opposing view.
> 
> ...





kenny g said:


> Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.



Heal thyself ffs.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2020)

government backing down it seems...devil in the detail








						Wider opening of schools: update
					

Gavin Williams COVID briefing -  re wider opening of schools update




					neu.org.uk


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Fuck sake the guy is such a tool. Why are we all so easy to manipulate. Genuinely makes you question democracy as it currently operates.


What Democracy?


----------



## Thora (May 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> government backing down it seems...devil in the detail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn’t look like any new information - when they first announced June 1st they said it would depend on safety criteria being met on 28th May before the decision is made.


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

nyxx said:


> Wow
> Expressed the opinion that it’s too bad if thousands more elderly / vulnerable people die before their time because it’s inconvenient to protect them from a known deadly risk


OK. Where did I express the opinion that it's too bad if thousands more elderly people die before their time because it is inconvenient to protect them
?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2020)

Wilf,so very sorry for your loss and more so from the shitty way that this horrible virus denied you and your mum the most basic of human rights.

FWIW BB2 doesn’t want to go back to school, she’s happy at home and is starting a new one in September and wants to get on with that.

BB1 was supposed to be sitting her GCSEs right now, that’s gone out of the window, her results will be based on mocks and some other measures; I would have been delighted at these turns of events but she has worked her arse off the past few years, so is a shame she can’t go prove herself in examinations.

And that above supposes that September will see junior school and collage open. If we stay as risk averse as we have been I can’t see how that can happen until there is a vaccine and/or cure.

Whether we should be so averse of this risk I dunno, been brainwashed these past few weeks and been enjoying a much needed extended holiday, but people such as Edie are dealing with it daily and accept her views on these matters as very valid indeed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> OK. Where did I express the opinion that it's too bad if thousands more elderly people die before their time because it is inconvenient to protect them
> ?





> Very few children die from covid so you are in effect asking a generation to forgo an education in exchange for slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.



Just stop it, please.


----------



## bmd (May 16, 2020)

The thing is, there were solutions to this pandemic that, if put into place earlier, would have given us so many more options now. As it is, we have very few good ones because, well, Boris. I read yesterday that apart from the Brazilian president, Bojo has the lowest foreign approval rating on earth, when it comes to handling the pandemic. Lower than Trump. That is some achievement.


----------



## kenny g (May 16, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Just stop it, please.


I never mentioned thousands of deaths were justified. We could have a far stronger lock down and I am sure fewer people would die. Does that mean anyone who doesn't argue for an italian or french style lockdown is justifying thousands of deaths?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Yeh right. "I never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain.
> 
> So let's close the schools maan...
> 
> ...


Christ I'm not sure whether this in genuine or some (really rather nasty) trolling. Either way load of shite (and that's putting it nicely).


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I never mentioned thousands of deaths were justified. We could have a far stronger lock down and I am sure fewer people would die. Does that mean anyone who doesn't argue for an italian or french style lockdown is justifying thousands of deaths?



We aren't talking about the style of anything other than the one we are facing now. We are talking about the legitimate concerns of people here in the UK given our situation and whether it is safe for kids/teacher/other staff to return to school now.

I know you want to get away from what you said but  it's done and whilst you can argue whatever you like it is still a fucking awful way to think. You are right in line with the batshit eugenicist Cummings on that one.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> Mail comments today are all about the feckless teachers lying on their sofas eating Pringles because they’re selfish and hate Britain.



I wish they could read the very powerful and moving testimony, here on this thread, as to what teachers are actually doing during all this. And what they have to face because of Tory austerity.


----------



## Gramsci (May 16, 2020)

On risk- I deal with it on regular basis. As Im now working voluntarily packing food boxes for those in need- equivalent to warehouse job ( this is on large scale).

We have rules on distancing and how we work together. Temperature taken, washing before working in , PPE. Even then in practical terms its not straightforward. Its also a very different way of working.

Given my experience of working in the pandemic I don't see how its going to work in schools. I work in a large space with a limited number of people for a start.

And I count voluntary work as work. One of the most aggravating things is when I hear people say the "economy" must be got going again for the benefit of the workers. ( the centre right view). The economy is working. Its key workers and voluntary workers keeping society going. Keeping society going should be aim of an "economy".

Given my personal experience I agree with the Teachers Union on this.

I need to go back to paid work as I am starting to struggle now- like a lot of people. That doesn't stop me seeing that starting up schools again isn't to be rushed as the government is trying to now.

Being "Centre Right". Its not obvious. The difference in practice between a Daily Mail reader and someone who is "centre right" is small. Its that the DM are upfront about it The "Centre right" isn't. As here its couched in terms of being concerned about the vulnerable and poor. So its not obvious when someone is "centre right".

Getting schools open is first stage of this government seeing how far they can push things. Next in line to teachers I think will be transport workers. RMT are already warning government they will take action if cuts are made to TFL.


----------



## comrade spurski (May 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> The mortality in under 40s, even under 50s, from covid is very low. That needs to be recognised, and balanced against other real tangible risks of lockdown such as it is continuing.
> 
> *It’s somewhat of a surprise to me that Unions (and the general thrust of argument on here) seems to be so short sighted of social inequality and poverty.*



Many working in schools have health issues, live with others with health issues and are very unclear of how much risk they would be put in as more children return to school.
I am currently working with two of our class (separately). They have severe Social Emotion and Mental Health needs (our school specislise in working with SEMH children). All are seen every week or so by staff visiting them. Work is sent as are games and ideas to keep them occupied.  We put things online to entertain and educate them and they are all supported in other ways such as play, drawing and lego therapies done by zoom along with counselling etc.

The point is that most staff are working directly with children but seem to be expected to turn up in school on June 1st with no protective clothing, no actual factual medical advice about whether children can pass the virus on and no reassurance from the government.

We can not socially distance in primary schools so how are staff going to be protected from the virus ... I say staff because the experts keep saying that children are very unlikely to get ill.

I am a HLTA and am seeing children 4 days a week at the moment...walking 3 to 4 miles each way as they are in different settings and I ain't getting on a bus. Many others are doing similar.

I have had to physically hold one of the children due to their violent behaviour twice in the past week.

I am a fit and healthy 53 year old man. I am also mixed race Caribbean. (I mention this cos your post doesn't address the much higher risks to non whites).

We are looking at getting visors as spitting is a regular occurrence with our children.

I am not digging at you but we have continued to work with kids but that doesn't mean people should be blackmailed into working with no protective clothing when they have no idea what the risk is to themselves or others.

The health expert at todays press conference had the fucking gall to say that very few school staff had been made ill by kids...without acknowledging that may be because the schools were shut to all but vulnerable and key workers kids.

All of the above shows how seriously staff and the unions take our roles but it's a bit rich that social injustice is bring laid at our door after 30 years of wage, social services, health, education and benefit cuts which has caused most of the problems.

Again  sorry for such a long post but I do not think that there is a short answer to such a complex situation.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 16, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Losing your mother is probably the single most traumatic moment of your life. It just floors you. There is nothing I can say, I know that, but time does help.



This.


----------



## campanula (May 16, 2020)

So Sorry Wilf -  your mum - a fixed point in the universe -  that particular love endures through a whole life. My condolences.

Both of my boys have been working throughout the lockdown, although have been able to maintain a degree of isolation, while I am acutel;y aware of the many people who have also been working throughout, in much riskier conditions...and I have certainly been relying on them. Their essentialness has not been reflected in their pay or rights though. And, recalling my long ago parenting days, I am  sure that I would have been fucking demented, after weeks and weeks of continual childcare. I am fairly certain I would have thought 'fuck that', if I considered the risks of working were too high (and made sure to get my UC, HB) but my D-i-L just wouldn't. I guess I am finding it hard to have a consistent position (seems to change every day). I just don't see  the current advice and demands should be so black and white,  yet vague: blunt and unfocused.  Well, I do, because we are ruled by cretins...but are also being sacrificed to expediency. And incompetence. Lack of basics such as PPE (I had better equipment working in a sandwich shop FFS). The testing fiasco.

I have no problem whatsoever, politicising a crisis and think every battle, every bloody inch must be fought for and defended...so I am very keen indeed to be as obstructive, expensive, belligerent and accusing as possible. On one hand, the utter shitness of a weekly fucking clap while we are already being fed the austerity payfreeze line. Because the immediacy of the virus will end but the  brutal political orthodoxy and shambolic response  has been laid bare . I have not lost anyone close to me but cannot help thinking that for those who have, those lives must be paid for.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 16, 2020)

All of these Tory mouth pieces giving it the big I am and declaring their fear for poor, vulnerable children...check their voting records and how many times in how many ways they voted to make those children's lives harder with their much loved austerity programme. It's boiling my piss that this isn't obvious to people who are otherwise intelligent and that the very same people who unionise and push back against social injustice on the regular are being gaslighted  and blamed by the 'think of the children' hypocrites.


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## philosophical (May 16, 2020)

Wilf words seem inadequate. I hope you find the strength to deal with your loss in a way that keeps you together.
Condolences.


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## weepiper (May 16, 2020)

Wilf I'm so sorry that you've lost your mum in these awful circumstances.

I'm worried about the kids being back at school and glad there seems to be no prospect of it happening any time soon. I worry about them picking it up and bringing it back to infect Mr W (no lower intestine and an autoimmune condition) or their 84 year old grandfather who also lives at their dad's house. I worry about them getting it and maybe developing this Kawasaki inflammatory response thing that some children have had after having it. I feel like me being at work is about as much risk as I'm prepared to take just now, and that's with a mask and gloves on all day and immediately putting the clothes I've been wearing in the washing machine and showering myself on coming home.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 17, 2020)

When Eton and Harrow Kids go back we will know its safe.


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## Treacle Toes (May 17, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> When Eton and Harrow Kids go back we will know its safe.


They are not AFAIK going back until September.


----------



## Thora (May 17, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> When Eton and Harrow Kids go back we will know its safe.


Surely like nurseries they will be open as soon as they can as they need the income.


----------



## Gramsci (May 17, 2020)

My partners private school are asking parents what they think about opening. So the June 1st is not definite yet.

Some of these private schools might not make it throught the pandemic. They depend on fees. Which are paid for this year. 

Heard some nurseries might close for good.

So far my partner its the worry of going back to work and wondering if her job will go if school closes down.


----------



## campanula (May 17, 2020)

My daughter would like to send her daughter (my Gdd) back to school. They can make a reasoned decision - they believe they have had the virus, both parents work from home, there is no other risk to anyone with vulnerabilities and so on. Works both ways though - they cannot guarantee that a teacher or classroom assistant would not be infected by their child because everyone's quarantine and avoidance attempts are patchy and inconsistent  and we are mostly blind. Because of inadequate testing, parents cannot, in good conscience, make those decisions, nor can teachers make a personal choice, weighing the threads and degrees of separation, where   are the risk pockets,  the overall conditions and requirements of their job.  Nope, working class people are, again, treated as mere economic units with no autonomy, rationale or  connection within a wider community, both geographical and emotional. Sod that.


----------



## campanula (May 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> My partners private school are asking parents what they think about opening. So the June 1st is not definite yet.
> 
> Some of these private schools might not make it throught the pandemic. They depend on fees. Which are paid for this year.
> 
> ...


Yep, there are going to be a lot of people out of work...so we can start by making sure the DWP do not have the freedom to operate sanctions in an utterly unhumane situation of endless humiliation and shaming for a pittance. Because this is the reality people are facing now, not just in some virus-free  future we cannot predict


----------



## Edie (May 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> All of these Tory mouth pieces giving it the big I am and declaring their fear for poor, vulnerable children...check their voting records and how many times in how many ways they voted to make those children's lives harder with their much loved austerity programme. It's boiling my piss that this isn't obvious to people who are otherwise intelligent and that the very same people who unionise and push back against social injustice on the regular are being gaslighted  and blamed by the 'think of the children' hypocrites.


I can see how it looks from this pov. But I think there’s an absolute assumption on the left (and I’m sure the right too) that you know best for people, and that (pretty much exclusively left) that you have a monopoly on caring about others. Neither of those things are true. People just disagree about what is best.

It’s pretty apparent from this thread that people are either unwilling or unable to look properly at the prospect of recession, and the misery and loss of life that inevitably entails. Why is that?

Is it because somehow being in lockdown and feeling ‘safe’, and all the relentless news about deaths, means somehow other risk can’t be appreciated? Maybe?

Or maybe you think a recession is unlikely?? Or won’t be that bad somehow?

Is it because you somehow think a recession could be avoided, and so protect you and yours and if it happens it’s The Governments fault anyway.

I guess the reality is most of us understand that it’s about managing risk now, not eliminating it. Whether or not schools go back to a limited extent now or later.

My personal point of view is that wearing PPE whilst to a limited extent socially distancing from clinically well children who have restricted contact with higher risk adults is... proportionate. I certainly think risk to the individuals involved (whilst not zero) is very small- fractions of a percent. Remember healthcare staff have been nursing covid patients with direct patient contact (lifting, turning, hand holding, adjusting oxygen etc) with PPE and their death rate is not above that of the population. That isn’t to say that the death rate won’t go up though, it probably will because transmission will probably increase. But it’s about proper monitoring and adjustment as necessary (which the Government are trying to do, even if you consider them to be doing it incompetently).

Lets hope it helps reduce the severity of the complete economic disaster that is heading towards us like a fucking train. Cos it feels like you are all but ignoring that, for reasons I’ve tried to understand but can’t.


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

I think the point is that we don't know what will happen when children get the virus. They don't seem to suffer because of it but they are no less immune to contracting it than anyone else. There are no conclusive studies about how children pass it on either. There are also very few degrees of seperation between children and vulnerable others.

The fact is that all of these things could be tested, possibly in a safer way, by carrying out some kind of tiered return to schooling, like what's being put forward.The problem is that no one trusts Boris and because he cannot deal with this crisis, his handlers won't help us to trust him by being more transparent. So here we are.

I don't think that biting chunks out of each other helps either. I hate to see you, Edie, who I care about immensely, defending yourself against blame by blaming others. It's shit.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> Lets hope it helps reduce the severity of the complete economic disaster that is heading towards us like a fucking train. Cos it feels like you are all but ignoring that, for reasons I’ve tried to understand but can’t.



You're making this out to be some force of nature though, like an inevitable event nobody has any control over rather than something that'll happen due to political choices made by capitalists and politicians?


----------



## Indeliblelink (May 17, 2020)

Couple of articles in The Observer/Guardian today








						Reopen the schools or a generation will bear the mental health scars
					

Children’s Covid symptoms are usually mild, but a lack of education can be severe




					www.theguardian.com
				











						The Observer view on how the debate on schools has been dangerously mishandled | Observer editorial
					

Vulnerable children face growing risks at home while politicians and teachers argue over how to get them back into classrooms




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2020)

Wilf said:


> My Mum died in a care home yesterday, so thanks very much for that. Covid wasn't a factor as it turns out, but it did mean I couldn't go in and see her in her final days (they've had covid cases and deaths). So when you start chucking stuff around about 'slightly extending the lives of those near the end' just remember these are real people. I'd have given anything for a bit more time and a chance to see her under normal conditions.


So sorry mate xxx


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

I don't think anyone is under any illusion about the risk to children from the virus. It's very low. The risk comes from the gathering together of children and their guardians and then them spreading the virus to others. 

Plus, I would be willing to put money on the "let's dip a toe... dip... dip... and now into the water everyone else!" approach.


----------



## nagapie (May 17, 2020)

Thora said:


> My younger children's school is only opening to Year 1 and Reception (not Nursery) and only offering 2 days a week.  Although they have said essentially attendance is optional, they have also said those years will no longer get any online teaching or home learning to protect teacher workloads.
> It's a good school though and I do trust they will make it a good experience for the children, as they have done with the keyworker children.


Tbf reception and year 1 don't need online learning, they are or shoukd be still at play based learning.
So are schools choosing to ignore the gov by offering part time timetables?


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> My personal point of view is that wearing PPE whilst to a limited extent socially distancing from clinically well children who have restricted contact with higher risk adults is... proportionate.



Apols if this has all been well & truly gone over (late to thread)...but aren't there quite a few things in what you say that pose genuine challenges?


If the state can't get PPE to careworkers/healthcare/keyworkers workers, what faith might adults in schools have that adequate supplies will be available for their use?
I've heard serving teachers say that state guidelines on social distancing would reduce classroom capacity to approx 25% of the usual; around 7 or 8 pupils per room (apparently this has been the case with the continuing key worker class-based education over the last 2 months). This would suggest that pupils might only be able to attend on 1 in 4 days if all year groups did get recalled?
Be interested to hear how folk think that the kids mixing at school might be restricted form contact with other/elder/vulnerable adults? Would kids in multi-generation/shielding households be automatically excused attendance? If so, how would remote provision effect equality of access?
So many questions about risk, as you say.


----------



## andysays (May 17, 2020)

On the ppe issue, is it proposed that returning school children are also to be issued it?

If so, there are even more questions about availability of suitably sized stuff, plus the unknown psychological consequences of getting 4 and 5 year old kids to dress up in masks etc in addition to being told they're not allowed to touch their friends or their teacher.

It's also questionable how much actual education could go on under such restrictive conditions, which makes me doubt the motivation of many of those wailing about how a generation's education is being sacrificed and using that as a reason to push even a limited number back prematurely.


----------



## flypanam (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Apols if this has all been well & truly gone over (late to thread)...but aren't there quite a few things in what you say that pose genuine challenges?
> 
> 
> If the state can't get PPE to careworkers/healthcare/keyworkers workers, what faith might adults in schools have that adequate supplies will be available for their use?
> ...


There is a question as how kids will get to school too, many travel on buses which also ups the exposure risk.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

I've not seen any suggestions that children or teachers would wear PPE when returning.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've not seen any suggestions that children or teachers would wear PPE when returning.


Which speaks volumes, really.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

From what I've seen PPE is not going to provided. Masks, for example, are not going to be encouraged either.

Social distancing is - correctly - assumed to be impractical and the "social bubble" thing combined with regular washing/cleaning seems to be the main strategy.


----------



## Red Cat (May 17, 2020)

Schools have a duty of care to their staff and children and parents. Their risk assessment is a process of negotiation and clearly that will take time as the situation is unprecedented.

In my work, we have crisis workers who are experts in responding to immediate suicide and self harm risk - they do it on the spot and follow up the following days as required, adjusting their assessment daily until they judge they're no longer needed. Then there are people like me who work in the long term, working with parents, consulting to schools and children's services, assessing risk constantly but in a very different way that takes into account the whole network and how they work together to create a stable network around the child. A stable network around the child is a prerequisite for long term psychotherapy with traumatised children. It's frustrating because it takes a long time to set up but the risk is greater if it's rushed because when you open things up in children and their parents and carers, the effect is unpredictable. What's required in schools is the latter kind of risk assessment, an understanding of immediate risk, but also the medium and long term risks on the school and the wider community. That can't be rushed.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> From what I've seen PPE is not going to provided. Masks, for example, are not going to be encouraged either.
> 
> Social distancing is - correctly - assumed to be impractical and the "social bubble" thing combined with regular washing/cleaning seems to be the main strategy.


So, pretty much if 'we' were going to design a set of circs in which 'we' could deliberately raise "R"....


----------



## andysays (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've not seen any suggestions that children or teachers would wear PPE when returning.


In fact, official advice is that face masks should not be worn



> Wearing a face covering or face mask in schools or other education settings is not recommended. Face coverings may be beneficial for short periods indoors where there is a risk of close social contact with people you do not usually meet and where social distancing and other measures cannot be maintained, for example on public transport or in some shops.





> This does not apply to schools or other education settings. Schools and other education or childcare settings should therefore not require staff, children and learners to wear face coverings. Changing habits, cleaning and hygiene are effective measures in controlling the spread of the virus.





> Face coverings (or any form of medical mask where instructed to be used for specific clinical reasons) should not be worn in any circumstance by those who may not be able to handle them as directed (for example, young children, or those with special educational needs or disabilities) as it may inadvertently increase the risk of transmission.



So it's back to instructions "wash your hands" again


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

comrade spurski said:


> Many working in schools have health issues, live with others with health issues and are very unclear of how much risk they would be put in as more children return to school.
> I am currently working with two of our class (separately). They have severe Social Emotion and Mental Health needs (our school specislise in working with SEMH children). All are seen every week or so by staff visiting them. Work is sent as are games and ideas to keep them occupied.  We put things online to entertain and educate them and they are all supported in other ways such as play, drawing and lego therapies done by zoom along with counselling etc.
> 
> The point is that most staff are working directly with children but seem to be expected to turn up in school on June 1st with no protective clothing, no actual factual medical advice about whether children can pass the virus on and no reassurance from the government.
> ...


There is no short answer to this.

I'm most definitely centre right, but do not think that teachers should be forced into an unsafe situation.

it's always good to have targets, but 1st June for a return date for teachers does not seem to be realistic.

What government says and what government does are often different, I suspect that when it gets to 1st June, it will be found that regrettably, it isn't possible to return.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

Recession is a choice. 

Capital and the State could respond in a similar manner to 1945 instead. 

But they'll only do that if - as in 1945 - we force their hand.


----------



## Thora (May 17, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Tbf reception and year 1 don't need online learning, they are or shoukd be still at play based learning.
> So are schools choosing to ignore the gov by offering part time timetables?


The guidance does say on it that’s it’s optional   
Full time, half size classes is impossible so schools will have to ignore it.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2020)

Looks like most people incl the government agree the real reason this is being rushed is school-as-childcare to mitigate the economic crash so if everyone were honest about that maybe they could think about an alternative that might work better.  I don’t know but like handing over all parks and sports centres and museums to teachers & children to do supervised properly distanced play / learning during school hours for instance. Won’t happen I know but would probably be safer than cramming into classrooms.


----------



## Edie (May 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> Looks like most people incl the government agree the real reason this is being rushed is school-as-childcare to mitigate the economic crash so if everyone were honest about that maybe they could think about any an alternative that might work better.  I don’t know but like handing over all parks and sports centres and museums to teachers & children to do supervised properly distanced play / learning during school hours for instance. Won’t happen I know but would probably be safer than cramming into classrooms.


I like this idea.


----------



## Thora (May 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> On the ppe issue, is it proposed that returning school children are also to be issued it?
> 
> If so, there are even more questions about availability of suitably sized stuff, plus the unknown psychological consequences of getting 4 and 5 year old kids to dress up in masks etc in addition to being told they're not allowed to touch their friends or their teacher.
> 
> It's also questionable how much actual education could go on under such restrictive conditions, which makes me doubt the motivation of many of those wailing about how a generation's education is being sacrificed and using that as a reason to push even a limited number back prematurely.


No PPE for children.  PPE only necessary for staff in certain conditions eg providing intimate care, medical care or if a child becomes ill.
Also no suggestion that 4 & 5 year olds can't touch their friends or teacher.


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> Looks like most people incl the government agree the real reason this is being rushed is school-as-childcare to mitigate the economic crash so if everyone were honest about that maybe they could think about an alternative that might work better.  I don’t know but like handing over all parks and sports centres and museums to teachers & children to do supervised properly distanced play / learning during school hours for instance. Won’t happen I know but would probably be safer than cramming into classrooms.



It's this kind of thinking that we need for unprecedented situations like this. We are banging our heads together because we are trying to fit this new stuff into the old stuff and it looks ike it won't work very well. So let's do something else instead.`


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> In fact, official advice is that face masks should not be worn
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, AFAIUI...both adult staff & pupils travelling to school by public transport will have been instructed by the state to wear face coverings but, on arrival at the boundary of the institution, the guidance will be that they should be removed.

Hmmm


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> Recession is a choice.
> 
> Capital and the State could respond in a similar manner to 1945 instead.
> 
> But they'll only do that if - as in 1945 - we force their hand.


Yes, but a greater challenge in an era without capital's fear of 'system competition'.


----------



## andysays (May 17, 2020)

Thora said:


> No PPE for children.  PPE only necessary for staff in certain conditions eg providing intimate care, medical care or if a child becomes ill.
> Also no suggestion that 4 & 5 year olds can't touch their friends or teacher.


So, no general ppe, no social distancing and unrealistic advice to wash your hands.

I wouldn't be happy about sending my child back under those circumstances, especially if anyone at home was in any way vulnerable.


----------



## andysays (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So, AFAIUI...both adult staff & pupils travelling to school by public transport will have been instructed by the state to wear face coverings but, on arrival at the boundary of the institution, the guidance will be that they should be removed.
> 
> Hmmm


But they're not supposed to be using public transport in the first place.

All the teachers will be cycling and all the kids can walk to school with their nanny, surely...


----------



## Thora (May 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> So, no general ppe, no social distancing and unrealistic advice to wash your hands.
> 
> I wouldn't be happy about sending my child back under those circumstances, especially if anyone at home was in any way vulnerable.


No, I wouldn't send a child back if they or a family member was vulnerable, and no one should be going to work if they're vulnerable either.  If children are going to school and adults are going to work then there's a good chance you're going to be exposed to covid eventually.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> But they're not supposed to be using public transport in the first place.
> 
> All the teachers will be cycling and all the kids can walk to school with their nanny, surely...


Tories' 'Greenwich Judgement' says otherwise.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 17, 2020)

I've no intention of returning until either September or my boss insists on pain of unemployment. Mrs SI has been told she's not expected back til Sept. So if we're here there's no chance I'm sending my daughter back


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

Thora said:


> If children are going to school and adults are going to work then there's a good chance you're going to be exposed to covid eventually.



I think that's the unpleasant truth and policy that's not often getting talked about. The Government is of the position that we can't eliminate it now so the only alternative is to have it slowly spread through the population. Hence the change to the wording of the Government's fifth test where they added, '...that will overwhelm the NHS.' to the bit about avoiding a second peak. Think the realization that this is going to happen hasn't quite been picked up on widely yet.


----------



## Red Cat (May 17, 2020)

I was thinking of sending my kids in for a day or two as children of keyworkers as I'm finding it hard to wfh (am in clinic twice a week and wfh three ) and for their benefit too. But I wouldn't send back yet if there are going to be more children there as my partner is vulnerable.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think that's the unpleasant truth and policy that's not often getting talked about. The Government is of the position that we can't eliminate it now so the only alternative is to have it slowly spread through the population. Hence the change to the wording of the Government's fifth test where they added, '...that will overwhelm the NHS.' to the bit about avoiding a second peak. Think the realization that this is going to happen hasn't quite been picked up on widely yet.


They’ve never thought or said it could be eliminated completely (short of everyone being vaccinated) have they?


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> They’ve never thought or said it could be eliminated completely (short of everyone being vaccinated) have they?



I keep coming back to the last 7 weeks. What were they for? If we're returning to the Herd approach then it would be helpful for that to be overtly stated by the government. After all, they're only following the advice of the experts.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2020)

bmd said:


> I keep coming back to the last 7 weeks. What were they for? If we're returning to the Herd approach then it would be helpful for that to be overtly stated by the government. After all, they're only following the advice of the experts.


Was to “protect the nhs” I thought, to keep the number of very sick people below the amount where they’d be refusing care to some of them due to lack of beds & staff & resources. Which worked far as I know. 
i feel really miserable today looking ahead it seems like this is all going to go on for a very very long time loosening then tightening again the social distancing measures.


----------



## andysays (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think that's the unpleasant truth and policy that's not often getting talked about. The Government is of the position that we can't eliminate it now so the only alternative is to have it slowly spread through the population. Hence the change to the wording of the Government's fifth test where they added, '...that will overwhelm the NHS.' to the bit about avoiding a second peak. Think the realization that this is going to happen hasn't quite been picked up on widely yet.


I think they're being quite careful *not* to describe it that way, hence all the bollocks about the importance of children's education and the dangers of a recession "especially for the poor".

Since when has the capitalist class cared about the effects of a recession on the poor, FFS?


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

Thread over.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

bmd said:


> I keep coming back to the last 7 weeks. What were they for? If we're returning to the Herd approach then it would be helpful for that to be overtly stated by the government. After all, they're only following the advice of the experts.


 
They were to manage and slow the spread of the virus so as to not overwhelm the NHS. Which it's done successfully.


----------



## Athos (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> It’s pretty apparent from this thread that people are either unwilling or unable to look properly at the prospect of recession, and the misery and loss of life that inevitably entails. Why is that?
> 
> Is it because somehow being in lockdown and feeling ‘safe’, and all the relentless news about deaths, means somehow other risk can’t be appreciated? Maybe?
> 
> Or maybe you think a recession is unlikely?? Or won’t be that bad somehow?



If people suffer in a recession, that'll be a political choice; there are enough resources to take care of everyone, if 'we' choose to use them that way.  The assumptions are yours; it's you whose unwilling or unable to look at alternative prospects.  The _status quo _is not inevitable. In fact, this crisis represents a real opportunity for workers to assert ourselves, not just for short-term safety, but longer-term gains.


----------



## Gramsci (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I can see how it looks from this pov. But I think there’s an absolute assumption on the left (and I’m sure the right too) that you know best for people, and that (pretty much exclusively left) that you have a monopoly on caring about others. Neither of those things are true. People just disagree about what is best.
> 
> It’s pretty apparent from this thread that people are either unwilling or unable to look properly at the prospect of recession, and the misery and loss of life that inevitably entails. Why is that?
> 
> ...



I base my "assumptions" on my personal experience and the reading I try to do. It is personal individual relations with others and reflecting on that. As well as trying to keep up with what is going on in the world.

Its not about some kind of middle way where people "just disagree about what is best".

This is the supposedly undogmatic politics of the centre.

Which portrays those on" left"as out of touch with real world issues. Its just as ideological as the "Left" you so dislike.

Behind the reasonable sounding phrases ( "most of us understand" is another one. Who is the "us"? ) lies your right wing politics dressed up as middle of the ground reasonableness of "most" people. The silent majority of the Daily Mail.

Then its back to a recession killing people. Your hobby horse you been banging on about since beginning of this thread. Ive been following this thread from the start. My partner works in a school. Im not on the politics boards that often so dont know you.

You started this thread claiming to be concerned about social inequality and poverty ( post 42). I didn't know you so gave you benefit of the doubt. Re reading that post last night in the hindsight of your later contribution to this thread and Im appalled by it.

You are a Union bashing right winger who dresses up your politics of the right in a veneer of reasonableness.


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Thread over.
> 
> View attachment 213131



Just came here to post this. Gove said:_“Children only have one chance at education. Over the course of the last decade we’ve made significant strides in closing the gap between the richest and the poorest in our schools. This lockdown has put that backwards._

So the Tory's have strode towards narrowing the gap between state and private schools and now teachers and local authorities want to ruin it for their pupils and parents.

Gove's morals are hard to get behind.

eta: 6 hours later, I'm getting the feeling that some people believe this is a post supporting the Tories. I think they're full of shit, have been terrible for state education and they couldn't be more hypocritical if the PM stood on a podium with a Support Our NHS sign stuck to it. Hope this clears things up, sorry for any confusion.


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> They were to manage and slow the spread of the virus so as to not overwhelm the NHS. Which it's done successfully.



It has. And I imagine that the people who worked in the NHS during this period are looking forward to a well-earned break.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

bmd said:


> Just came here to post this. Gove said:_“Children only have one chance at education. Over the course of the last decade we’ve made significant strides in closing the gap between the richest and the poorest in our schools. This lockdown has put that backwards._
> 
> So the Tory's have strode towards narrowing the gap between state and private schools and now teachers and local authorities want to ruin it for their pupils and parents.
> 
> Gove's morals are hard to get behind.


AFAIK claims like that are never founded on actual data, they use post-code deprivation surrogates because pupils are not required to disclose their household income when the enter school.


----------



## Red Cat (May 17, 2020)

bmd said:


> Just came here to post this. Gove said:_“Children only have one chance at education. Over the course of the last decade we’ve made significant strides in closing the gap between the richest and the poorest in our schools. This lockdown has put that backwards._
> 
> So the Tory's have strode towards narrowing the gap between state and private schools and now teachers and local authorities want to ruin it for their pupils and parents.
> 
> Gove's morals are hard to get behind.



If it could be put back in such a short amount of time then there wasn't much change in the first place.


----------



## andysays (May 17, 2020)

bmd said:


> It has. And I imagine that the people who worked in the NHS during this period are looking forward to a well-earned break.


All of us are looking forward to a break, to putting the fear of corona virus and the disruption it's caused to all our lives behind us.

But sending kids back to school unnecessarily early, with no coherent measures to prevent transmission within schools, more or less guarantees that infection numbers will go back up again, with all that that implies for all of us, not just those working in the NHS.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

I work with teenagers who have EBD, and learning difficulties.
Schools are due to open in Sept. But phased and with potentially very small numbers attending. And not open every day.
The government has decided that students and teachers with underlying health conditions can work and learn from home. They also have stated that teachers over the age of 60 should be allowed work from home.
It will be extremely difficult for our school because the students travel long distances in mini buses to get to school. So only 3 might be allowed travel on any minibus. And if a student gets sick en route or in school, it is challenging getting them home. Parents often ignore calls home and know damn well they've sent their kid to school, sick.
How do we ensure that kids, whose behaviour is uncontrolled and erratic, will maintain social distance from one another and the teacher?
How do we teach practical subjects like cookery and woodwork and ensure social distance?
Kids with difficult behaviours..how do we deal with them?
Lots of kids need to have meds administered. How's that going to work? Short of asking a parent to attend with their kid and take full responsibility for themin school?
We dont have a school nurse. A classroom assistant is mandated to give medicines to students.
Will we have to have 6 feet around every student at all times? How do we work with younger students who might need help with shoes and coats?
Will we be provided with PPE and training?
What happens if a student assaults us? Or spits at us? As can happen anyway. Should extreme behaviourally challenging students be kept at  home?
Should online school be an option for all? And run in tandem with regular onsite school?
How do we get all students to wash their hands every hour as the WHO advises? And maintain 6 feet distance from others while they so this?

Its a nightmare.

Eta. People think kids are biddable and do what they are told. They don't always so what they're told and where I work they definitely will break the rules. And staff and other students will be put at risk. There is no way round the fact that we will end up being forced to take risks with students and staff health and safety.  And I cant see how insurers will allow that. 

Our unions have been strong and have pushed for a lot. Hopefully when schools do open the system will not be abused by anyone.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 17, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I'll drop this but it says Magnificent Staff v Militant Unions.
> 
> They don't hate teachers, they hate unions, or unionised teachers. They urge teachers to be "better than that"


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 17, 2020)

Original vs DM version


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 17, 2020)

Condolences Wilf


----------



## planetgeli (May 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I work with teenagers who have EBD, and learning difficulties.
> Schools are due to open in Sept. But phased and with potentially very small numbers attending. And not open every day.
> The government has decided that students and teachers with underlying health conditions can work and learn from home. They also have stated that teachers over the age of 60 should be allowed work from home.
> It will be extremely difficult for our school because the students travel long distances in mini buses to get to school. So only 3 might be allowed travel on any minibus. And if a student gets sick en route or in school, it is challenging getting them home. Parents often ignore calls home and know damn well they've sent their kid to school, sick.
> ...



This echoes a lot of my worries which I've been sitting here thinking about, getting depressed, for the past two hours, wondering what to write. 

Our kids all have behavioural problems. Our attendance figure is around 70%. The kids all come in shared taxis (2 or 3 in a car) or shared mini buses (anything from 4-10). Once in school, it's a youth club to them. Attendance in actual class is around 40% on average. Our joke is we are an alfresco school because much of our time is spent in the yard, safeguarding the kids who won't come to lessons. They mingle, they smoke (official policy is to turn a blind eye to this), they spit and they fight. Much of my job involves being in very close proximity to a lot of gobby youth, chatting with them, modelling good behaviour - or simply stopping fights, standing in the way of a closed door they are trying to kick through, or correcting at close quarters any other numerous amounts of bad behaviour you care to think of. Our kids don't follow rules, because they've never learnt any, at the best of times.

And people want me to do this without PPE? Because you only get one chance at education?

It is, indeed, a nightmare, especially for those of us working at the bottom of the socio-economic pile.

I hope they get a day off for my funeral.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> This echoes a lot of my worries which I've been sitting here thinking about, getting depressed, for the past two hours, wondering what to write.
> 
> Our kids all have behavioural problems. Our attendance figure is around 70%. The kids all come in shared taxis (2 or 3 in a car) or shared mini buses (anything from 4-10). Once in school, it's a youth club to them. Attendance in actual class is around 40% on average. Our joke is we are an alfresco school because much of our time is spent in the yard, safeguarding the kids who won't come to lessons. They mingle, they smoke (official policy is to turn a blind eye to this), they spit and they fight. Much of my job involves being in very close proximity to a lot of gobby youth, chatting with them, modelling good behaviour - or simply stopping fights, standing in the way of a closed door they are trying to kick through, or correcting at close quarters any other numerous amounts of bad behaviour you care to think of. Our kids don't follow rules, because they've never learnt any, at the best of times.
> 
> ...



Has your school been given a suggested date to re-open, or is one being talked about unofficially among you? It's initially limited primary school years in 2 weeks time isn't it?

My position is that schools should stay closed until next academic year. And the effort that it would take to reopen them should be put into more chasing up of vulnerable students and making sure things area as safe as possible for them until September.


----------



## fishfinger (May 17, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 213136
> Original vs DM version


Even more original:


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 17, 2020)

Concern over the most vulnerable kids Is weighing heavily on the shoulders of all the teachers I know


----------



## planetgeli (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Has your school been given a suggested date to re-open, or is one being talked about unofficially among you? It's initially limited primary school years in 2 weeks time isn't it?
> 
> My position is that schools should stay closed until next academic year. And the effort that it would take to reopen them should be put into more chasing up vulnerable students and making sure things area as safe as possible for them until September.



I'm in Wales, we're not expecting to go back until September though no word has been given. Our kids are all vulnerable (hence the behaviour problems, we're a behaviour unit, a PRU) and secondary school age. None of the class size argument applies. Very few of the usual rules apply. The point is our kids don't/won't/can't follow rules. It's not a normal school in any way.

PPE is the least they could do for us and it's my understanding it's not even being discussed.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 17, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Concern over the most vulnerable kids Is weighing heavily on the shoulders of all the teachers I know



Exactly.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

bmd said:


> Just came here to post this. Gove said:_“Children only have one chance at education. Over the course of the last decade we’ve made significant strides in closing the gap between the richest and the poorest in our schools. This lockdown has put that backwards._
> 
> So the Tory's have strode towards narrowing the gap between state and private schools and now teachers and local authorities want to ruin it for their pupils and parents.
> 
> Gove's morals are hard to get behind.








Of course, it's just a touch disingenuous to claim that gap has narrowed.

I mean, it has,  as far as attainment alone is concerned, but to such a miniscule degree that it's insignificant.

The gap in all other ways (equality, mobility etc etc) has widened and continues to do so.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Has your school been given a suggested date to re-open, or is one being talked about unofficially among you? It's initially limited primary school years in 2 weeks time isn't it?
> 
> My position is that schools should stay closed until next academic year. And the effort that it would take to reopen them should be put into more chasing up vulnerable students and making sure things area as safe as possible for them until September.



Secondary schools are going back too for years 10 and 12.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 17, 2020)

The economic argument for early school opening to more than just vulnerable and key worker kids is such obvious horseshit anyway.
Even if we were amoral dogmatic capitalists, surely the risk of a second peak due to early loosening of lockdown and schools resuming as babysitters for “non essential” workers’ kids would mean _worse_ economic damage and _longer_ economic recovery time, compared to driving the infection rates down to a level where full testing,  contact tracing and isolating can be used effectively before sending large numbers back to school?


----------



## ska invita (May 17, 2020)

Spoke to a friend last night who teaches in hackney...headteacher there has had two very close relatives die of C19. Current guidance is they wont be opening unless extra safeguards are put in place from government.


----------



## Wilf (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So, pretty much if 'we' were going to design a set of circs in which 'we' could deliberately raise "R"....


Yep, the R rate is going up, at the very least on a regional/local basis. So what do you do? You do the very thing the lockdown has stopped, you bring people from different households together and put them in a room together. Many of whom are too young to understand or enact social distancing. Oh, and without PPE. A whole set of real and obvious concerns that are ultimately about the government's failure to get a grip on the virus - too little too late.

And to stop us thinking about it in those terms, here's gove telling councils teachers and others, essentially, to toughen up, that they are to blame if kids suffer.








						Michael Gove tells councils to 'look to their responsibilities' and open schools
					

Minister asks authorities refusing to allow pupils back on 1 June to ‘think again’




					www.theguardian.com
				




I do, like every poster on this thread, take seriously the harm that follows from kids being away from school - more seriously than the likes of gove. But ultimately, taking a set of actions that will kill more people is just appalling.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Yep, the R rate is going up, at the very least on a regional/local basis. So what do you do? You do the very thing the lockdown has stopped, you bring people from different households together and put them in a room together. Many of whom are too young to understand or enact social distancing. Oh, and without PPE. A whole set of real and obvious concerns that are ultimately about the government's failure to get a grip on the virus - too little too late.
> 
> And to stop us thinking about it in those terms, here's gove telling councils teachers and others, essentially, to toughen up, that they are to blame if kids suffer.
> 
> ...



Somewhere in an office some people have done some calculations about the deaths that will come from opening schools versus keeping them shut. Let's have them out in the open for us all to decide if it's worth it.


----------



## Wilf (May 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> Looks like most people incl the government agree the real reason this is being rushed is school-as-childcare to mitigate the economic crash so if everyone were honest about that maybe they could think about an alternative that might work better.  I don’t know but like handing over all parks and sports centres and museums to teachers & children to do supervised properly distanced play / learning during school hours for instance. Won’t happen I know but would probably be safer than cramming into classrooms.


Wouldn't it be nice if just once a government came up with something creative like that. But as you say, won't happen.


----------



## Athos (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Somewhere in an office some people have done some calculations about the deaths that will come from opening schools versus keeping them shut. Let's have them out in the open for us all to decide if it's worth it.



Yes.  And present the data that shows the cost of alternatives.  Of course they won't, though, because it'd reveal: first, their callousness; and, secondly, how many they've probably killed through austerity.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 17, 2020)

Thora said:


> Surely like nurseries they will be open as soon as they can as they need the income.


Point i was making was when Gove and the other high and mighty send their Kids back to Eton and Harrow he can lecture the teachers and Unions.


----------



## Athos (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Somewhere in an office some people have done some calculations about the deaths that will come from opening schools versus keeping them shut. Let's have them out in the open for us all to decide if it's worth it.



Also, with lots of countries lifting lockdown, including schools reopening, why rely on models based on guesswork; just give it another month and they'll be loads of evidence upon which to base any decision.


----------



## nogojones (May 17, 2020)

We've lost 50,000 odd in two months with a late, mildly enforced lockdown. If we open up schools this will just re-peak. This is the governments way of bringing back "herd immunity"- which frankly there is no good evidence to support - on the sly. They were cool with the potential for up to 750k to die, but the kickback made them a bit scared so they felt they had to do something, hence the half arsed and conflicting messenging. I believe it's not ineptitude that's creating this policy, but a deliberate policy of confusing people and trying to turn less risk adverse members of the population against others, so increasing the death rate in the belief that they can get it over with and back to business. That the NHS would be fucked  because of this is just a bonus prize and a good excuse to look at more effective market based aproaches to healthcare.

So if we keep on with this sort of approach, we would be looking at 300,000 ish over a year. But fuck em, they would be dead soon anyway


----------



## teqniq (May 17, 2020)

Posted on the covid UK thread but more properly belongs here. Why sending kids back to school in June is a really bad idea.









						Thread by @JuneSim63: Thread This is my 5 yrs old great niece. She was fit & healthy until a mild bout of Covid19 5wks ago from which she appeared to recover.…
					

Thread by @JuneSim63: Thread This is my 5 yrs old great niece. She was fit & healthy until a mild bout of Covid19 5wks ago from which shed to recover. She is now in ICU with a Kawasaki inflammatory response. She is off the ventilator but has develope…




					threadreaderapp.com


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## Wilf (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Somewhere in an office some people have done some calculations about the deaths that will come from opening schools versus keeping them shut. Let's have them out in the open for us all to decide if it's worth it.


I've had similar thoughts at a couple of points, for example with the 'get back to work' message. I suspect they've already got special advisers and others working on the PR strategy when we get a 'mini second wave' as a result of people using the tube over the next weeks and then after the school return. So fucking depressing.


----------



## teqniq (May 17, 2020)

Probably already been mentioned but I saw yesterday that public schools will stay closed until September. So the proles are expendable but the ruling class of tomorrow are not. We need a revolution.


----------



## N_igma (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I can see how it looks from this pov. But I think there’s an absolute assumption on the left (and I’m sure the right too) that you know best for people, and that (pretty much exclusively left) that you have a monopoly on caring about others. Neither of those things are true. People just disagree about what is best.
> 
> It’s pretty apparent from this thread that people are either unwilling or unable to look properly at the prospect of recession, and the misery and loss of life that inevitably entails. Why is that?
> 
> ...



When the economy is in recession it doesn’t mean there isn’t an economy it just means it isn’t growing. Why are you worried that the economy isn’t growing? A growing economy requires an increasing consumption of natural and human resources, the exploitation of labour and time etc. I don’t think that should be viewed as a desirable.

Sure, that’s the gold standard all countries work on to decide whether or not they are doing well but does that come ahead of people’s health and well-being?

Let’s just bring everything back down to basics here. What is it that human beings actually need? - food, water, shelter, security, good health, clothing, education. All these things are currently being provided by essential workers because they are erm...essential.

Schools are still open for children of essential workers and teachers are still working from home providing online lessons to pupils. The problem isn’t that children aren’t getting an education. It’s that the Government want children back in school so parents can go back to the rat race. Doing jobs that are essentially pointless to maintain the charade of a growing economy.

And for what? If anything this pandemic has shown us is that a vast bulk of our economy is absolutely pointless. As long as the basic needs of humans are met then we can go on indefinitely. Governments can print out as much money as they want in their own currency and inflation is not going to be an issue because there is less demand in the consumer economy.

This whole talk of recession is absolute bollocks it doesn’t mean anything. The health of human beings will always come before a ‘growing’ economy.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Probably already been mentioned but I saw yesterday that public schools will stay closed until September. So the proles are expendable but the ruling class of tomorrow are not. We need a revolution.



Depends what you mean by "public schools". I think a fair few private schools are going back.

I'd be wary of assuming the ruling class aren't prepared to risk their kids to pursue their agenda...


----------



## teqniq (May 17, 2020)

More patricularly Eton is staying closed till September:









						If Eton isn’t reopening until at least September, why the hurry to bring back state schools?
					

Don’t you think it’s a bit strange? I mean, if it was safe to reopen schools at the beginning of June, you’d think the recipients of the most expensive education in the United Kin…



					voxpoliticalonline.com


----------



## frogwoman (May 17, 2020)

I completely agree that the lockdown has to be lifted at some point but its obvious that the government is prioritising getting people back to work at the expense of physical and mental health of those workers. Why is it for example that some posh twat can get a cleaner in but yet people with underlying health conditions and the over 70s have to stay inside indefinitely while everyone else develops 'herd immunity' which may not even exist? its a completely inhumane set of policy objectives


----------



## frogwoman (May 17, 2020)

and seeing all their friends get back to 'normal' will just reinforce the isolation of those children and lead to issues of bullying and stigmatisation etc even if/when they eventually can go back


----------



## Edie (May 17, 2020)

N_igma said:


> When the economy is in recession it doesn’t mean there isn’t an economy it just means it isn’t growing. Why are you worried that the economy isn’t growing? A growing economy requires an increasing consumption of natural and human resources, the exploitation of labour and time etc. I don’t think that should be viewed as a desirable.
> 
> Sure, that’s the gold standard all countries work on to decide whether or not they are doing well but does that come ahead of people’s health and well-being?
> 
> ...


I have to be honest and say I don’t have enough knowledge about economics to know. My understanding is that a recession is not an economy ‘not growing’. It’s an economic decline, reduced activity.

A recession would mean rising unemployment (and apparently 1 in 20 jobs have already been lost due to covid). For those that keep their jobs, poorer prospects and lower job security. Young people will be most effected (my son turns 18 soon and will be looking for his first job/apprenticeship). Wages drop as well as there’s more people than jobs, but food and rent may not change.

I’m not reassured by you and others saying that The Government can just print more money and inflation doesn’t matter. It doesn’t sound like a great plan. I’m also not sure I agree with (or even understand) the statement that ‘recession is a political choice’ that’s been made. My understanding is that it can be caused by natural disasters through to too much lending, but its unpredictable.


----------



## ska invita (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m not reassured by you and others saying that The Government can just print more money and inflation doesn’t matter.


I'm no expert on the dark arts of economics either, but its not that inflation_ doesnt matter_, its that there _wont be_ runaway inflation (according to some notable - right wing even - economists), then aside from that there is a degree of inflation that might be brought in _on purpose_ so as to reduce government debt.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2020)

N_igma said:


> When the economy is in recession it doesn’t mean there isn’t an economy it just means it isn’t growing. Why are you worried that the economy isn’t growing? A growing economy requires an increasing consumption of natural and human resources, the exploitation of labour and time etc. I don’t think that should be viewed as a desirable.
> 
> Sure, that’s the gold standard all countries work on to decide whether or not they are doing well but does that come ahead of people’s health and well-being?
> 
> ...


That all sounds right and everything but stuff like this is not good news, is it?

I mean you make it all so abstract that millions of people losing their jobs just disappear from the picture. Sure governments could help those people properly if they wanted to but it’s not likely is it so tbh looks a bit silly to me just saying don’t worry about the economy it’s all made up and mostky bollocks. That’s true but the consequences of the wheels coming off are still real aren’t they.


----------



## flypanam (May 17, 2020)

teqniq said:


> More patricularly Eton is staying closed till September:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Harrow and Winchester.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Somewhere in an office some people have done some calculations about the deaths that will come from opening schools versus keeping them shut. Let's have them out in the open for us all to decide if it's worth it.


I think that one side of that equation is accumulation foregone.


----------



## N_igma (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I have to be honest and say I don’t have enough knowledge about economics to know. My understanding is that a recession is not an economy ‘not growing’. It’s an economic decline, reduced activity.
> 
> A recession would mean rising unemployment (and apparently 1 in 20 jobs have already been lost due to covid). For those that keep their jobs, poorer prospects and lower job security. Young people will be most effected (my son turns 18 soon and will be looking for his first job/apprenticeship). Wages drop as well as there’s more people than jobs, but food and rent may not change.
> 
> I’m not reassured by you and others saying that The Government can just print more money and inflation doesn’t matter. It doesn’t sound like a great plan. I’m also not sure I agree with (or even understand) the statement that ‘recession is a political choice’ that’s been made. My understanding is that it can be caused by natural disasters through to too much lending, but its unpredictable.



Lol an economic decline is just the opposite of it not growing though. It’s either growing or it isn’t. If it doesn’t then it’s in decline, if it declines for 2 quarters we are in a recession.

All economies are human-based, if every human died right now would there be an economy? No there wouldn’t. So we are presented with human problems that require human solutions. As I’ve already stated, as long as we provide essential goods and services then everything else is off the table for now. Governments around the Western World have mostly stepped in and secured these measures. 

My main problem is the people who are in such a hurry to return to what we had. We are in a unique position where we can really change our idea of how economies should be run, and the purpose of work itself. But I digress.

Bimble - People who are unemployed don’t just lose their skills overnight, I’m sure they’ll be perfectly able to go back doing what they did before this happened. Just as long as the Government takes steps to protect them in the meantime. Which is what we should be focusing on here.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

On economics...bear in mind that the current model - neoliberalism - doesn't just take advantage of crises but actively seeks them. It's not workers trying not to die that will cause the recession. It will be capital seeking new markets, increased profits and rentier opportunities.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

Easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism innit.

That's what's coming out among some posters on here, a stunning lack of imagination that will lead us back into the virus ridden world for some to seek profit.


----------



## Red Cat (May 17, 2020)

N_igma said:


> When the economy is in recession it doesn’t mean there isn’t an economy it just means it isn’t growing. Why are you worried that the economy isn’t growing? A growing economy requires an increasing consumption of natural and human resources, the exploitation of labour and time etc. I don’t think that should be viewed as a desirable.
> 
> Sure, that’s the gold standard all countries work on to decide whether or not they are doing well but does that come ahead of people’s health and well-being?
> 
> ...



We know economic expansion is at the expense of the world's population - this is reality - we know that this is unsustainable and catastrophic, that this will involve an increase in war and mass migration, the destruction of lives all over the world.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

teqniq said:


> More patricularly Eton is staying closed till September:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From what I've read, Eton et al, is providing pretty much a full streamed curriculum.


----------



## LDC (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> From what I've read, Eton et al, is providing pretty much a full streamed curriculum.



The kids are being plugged in via an ethernet connection they've had spliced onto their temple and taught while asleep to make up for lost class time. I think.


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## chilango (May 17, 2020)

Eton is not about the curriculum.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I have to be honest and say I don’t have enough knowledge about economics to know. My understanding is that a recession is not an economy ‘not growing’. It’s an economic decline, reduced activity.


What is "the economy", what do you mean by that term? 


Edie said:


> A recession would mean rising unemployment (and apparently 1 in 20 jobs have already been lost due to covid). For those that keep their jobs, poorer prospects and lower job security.


Why must this happen? Where is the necessity that a recession must mean these things?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I can see how it looks from this pov. But I think there’s an absolute assumption on the left (and I’m sure the right too) that you know best for people, and that (pretty much exclusively left) that you have a monopoly on caring about others. Neither of those things are true. People just disagree about what is best.


No-one would suggest that those on the right are uncaring. It’s just that they don’t care about everybody, about the generality of mankind. Or care as much. This is an over-simplification because lots of people on the right are not actually anything near as right-wing as they think they are. But over the aeons the ‘right’ have shown how they don’t care about unmarried mothers, immigrants, asylum seekers, refugees, lower classes of the population, servants, slaves, people in other countries etc etc. All these people are lazy, work shy, criminal, diseased, inferior etc etc. They deserve what they get because it’s their fault. Maybe God arranged it that way, maybe she didn’t, but whatever the case we, the upper classes, are not responsible, not to blame and shouldn’t feel embarrassed to fully enjoy our wealth and power. Simplistic? Yes. Basically correct analysis? Yes.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> On economics...bear in mind that the current model - neoliberalism - doesn't just take advantage of crises but actively seeks them. It's not workers trying not to die that will cause the recession. It will be capital seeking new markets, increased profits and rentier opportunities.


Don’t think anybody (apart from the mail) is saying it would be workers fault for refusing to risk their and others lives by going to work in the middle of the pandemic but if loads of people lose their jobs (in for instance shops & businesses that fold because they can’t pay rent whilst closed for months) and so those people have much less money to spend doesn’t that cause recession too without any particular seeking of new markets by owners of factories or whatever?  idk just looks inevitable to me. I’m just looking at things on a small local scale mostly and thinking by the end of the year quite a few people I know will probably have permanently lost their jobs and more of the high street will be charity shops.


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## andysays (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> ...Young people will be most affected (my son turns 18 soon and will be looking for his first job/apprenticeship)...


The difficulties faced by your son and many other young people looking for an apprenticeship or other decent first job with reasonable prospects are far more the result of British capitalists deciding they can get a better return on their money by opening factories in China, the Philippines and elsewhere rather than training young people in Britain and paying them a decent wage while doing so than the inevitable result of a recession caused unavoidably by sensible measures taken to protect us from coronavirus.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> Don’t think anybody (apart from the mail) is saying it would be workers fault for refusing to risk their and others lives by going to work in the middle of the pandemic but if loads of people lose their jobs (in for instance shops & businesses that fold because they can’t pay rent whilst closed for months) and so those people have much less money to spend doesn’t that cause recession too without any particular seeking of new markets by owners of factories or whatever?  idk just looks inevitable to me. I’m just looking at things on a small local scale mostly and thinking by the end of the year quite a few people I know will probably have permanently lost their jobs and more of the high street will be charity shops.



Plenty of things could be done (within a capitalist framework) to mitigate a temporary pause on many jobs.

Rent/Mortgage freeze.
Universal basic income
Opening up privately held infrastructure (hospitals, schools, transport, accomodation etc.) for community/social/state use if needed.
...and so on. It could be done. If it's not, ask yourself why?


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> Plenty of things could be done (within a capitalist framework) to mitigate a temporary pause on many jobs.
> 
> Rent/Mortgage freeze.
> Universal basic income
> ...


Yes. On the silver linings side it does feel like (maybe I’m totally wrong) this moment is the closest in my lifetime that it’s come to these things being actually conceivably possible to happen here. Not saying I think it’s likely but I can imagine change being inevitable as a result of this thing.
The commercial rent thing is an obvious start it just doesn’t make any sense to not do something there if you want some ‘ non essential’ businesses to still exist next year.


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## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Schools using some museums and sports centres as extra classrooms till the end of term would definitely help with social distancing and reducing class sizes. The major problem would still be that there simply aren't enough teachers to halve classes. And hopefully sports centres and museums will open again at some point so obviously it's only a temporary solution. 

That's one reason to wait till September - by then, if those smaller classes are still needed, then some former teachers could have done some online training to get back in the loop, courses could be prepared that could be delivered partly online and partly at home for secondary school kids, there could be a better scheme for providing laptops and WiFi to kids, etc etc. 

TBH I am concerned about the economy and the effects of a prolonged recession, but rushing out of lockdown without a proper plan isn't the way to help the economy. Theres no point telling businesses they can open if customers aren't going to use them - they'd end up with extra running costs from having staff in and buying stock that doesn't sell. And then they wouldn't be eligible for furlough or local councils' rates freezes.

Plus having a second wave would mean more lockdown, more uncertainty, and more damage to the economy than keeping this lockdown going until the death rate is lower than it was a couple of weeks after lockdown started, and staying low. Continuing to pay furlough and extra universal credit for a couple more months will cost far less than the 2009 Bank bailout, and less than the costs of trident or hs2, so the government genuinely can afford it. 

Favouring an extended lockdown and careful reopening of businesses doesn't necessarily come from a point of view of not worrying about a recession - it can be just the opposite.


----------



## Athos (May 17, 2020)

Edie said:


> I have to be honest and say I don’t have enough knowledge about economics to know. My understanding is that a recession is not an economy ‘not growing’. It’s an economic decline, reduced activity.



So what?  People are the economy; all value is created by workers.  And workers don't have to accept a trade-off between their safety and the share of that value they're currently allowed; it's possible for workers to stay safe and for GDP to decrease by a massive proportion at the same time as the vast majority of workers being better off - it's a question of distribution.


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## Gramsci (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Schools using some museums and sports centres as extra classrooms till the end of term would definitely help with social distancing and reducing class sizes. The major problem would still be that there simply aren't enough teachers to halve classes. And hopefully sports centres and museums will open again at some point so obviously it's only a temporary solution.
> 
> That's one reason to wait till September - by then, if those smaller classes are still needed, then some former teachers could have done some online training to get back in the loop, courses could be prepared that could be delivered partly online and partly at home for secondary school kids, there could be a better scheme for providing laptops and WiFi to kids, etc etc.
> 
> ...



What former teachers? Are you saying they should be called up out of retirement? Maybe they have worked hard and like retirement?

Teachers here have posted they havent been at home having a easy life. They have been running online courses etc. Giving every student a new laptop and wifi could be done now soon with the political will. Instead Im hearing people being asked to donate computers to schools for students.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> So what?  People are the economy; all value is created by workers.  And it's possible for GDP to decrease by a massive proportion and the vast majority of workers to be better off; it's a question of distribution.


Yes - nationalisations, improved workers power, increased taxes, greater investment in public services - all these things would "harm the economy", are you going to argue against these Edie?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 17, 2020)

it does seem a little odd that the tory government which has over the last 10 years shredded youth services, mental health services, sure start and so on is - all of a sudden - deeply concerned about the welfare of working class children...


----------



## Athos (May 17, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes - nationalisations, improved workers power, increased taxes, greater investment in public services - all these things would "harm the economy", are you going to argue against these Edie?



Hell, the NHS, benefits, housing, and education don't turn a profit.  What of them?


----------



## Athos (May 17, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> it does seem a little odd that the tory government which has over the last 10 years shredded youth services, mental health services, sure start and so on is - all of a sudden - deeply concerned about the welfare of working class children...



They'll need someone to fuck once this is all over.


----------



## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> What former teachers? Are you saying they should be called up out of retirement? Maybe they have worked hard and like retirement?
> 
> Teachers here have posted they havent been at home having a easy life. They have been running online courses etc. Giving every student a new laptop and wifi could be done now soon with the political will. Instead Im hearing people being asked to donate computers to schools for students.



Ones that want to return to work. I never said anything about forcing people to return to teaching. There will be some who want to, especially part time, and not just retired teachers either, but those who left teaching to go to other jobs, which they might not have any more. I know lots and lots of people with teaching qualifications who no longer work in education - it's not uncommon. But if they wanted to go back they'd need up to date crb checks and refresher training first, so they wouldn't be able to help schools have smaller class sizes immediately. 

I used to be a teacher (and would still be if I could) and know full well how hard teachers have been working, so direct your anger elsewhere.

Getting laptops to kids could be done fairly quickly - a few of the most vulnerable kids will end up never seeing those laptops because their parents will sell them, but that doesn't mean all the other kids should be denied them too. Improving internet access would take a little longer, though, and it's not uncommon for low income households to only have mobile internet which really isn't adequate for keeping up with schoolwork.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> From what I've read, Eton et al, is providing pretty much a full streamed curriculum.


Do you think state schools could do that?


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Ones that want to return to work.


Fuck that.


----------



## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fuck that.



Eh? Some people will want to, especially if they've lost their job elsewhere. That is really not a bizarre suggestion. 

Man, you'd think I'd suggested lassooing former teachers and chaining them to their desks.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2020)

As a "former teacher" it'd take quite some convincing to get me to go back.


----------



## bmd (May 17, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> This echoes a lot of my worries which I've been sitting here thinking about, getting depressed, for the past two hours, wondering what to write.
> 
> Our kids all have behavioural problems. Our attendance figure is around 70%. The kids all come in shared taxis (2 or 3 in a car) or shared mini buses (anything from 4-10). Once in school, it's a youth club to them. Attendance in actual class is around 40% on average. Our joke is we are an alfresco school because much of our time is spent in the yard, safeguarding the kids who won't come to lessons. They mingle, they smoke (official policy is to turn a blind eye to this), they spit and they fight. Much of my job involves being in very close proximity to a lot of gobby youth, chatting with them, modelling good behaviour - or simply stopping fights, standing in the way of a closed door they are trying to kick through, or correcting at close quarters any other numerous amounts of bad behaviour you care to think of. Our kids don't follow rules, because they've never learnt any, at the best of times.
> 
> ...



Don't get depressed. You have the support of all right thinking people. No one wants poor mental health for you and your colleagues. If that's what this is doing to you then you will need to take a step back, quite rightly, until you can breathe again. This is not all on you. Be well.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> As a "former teacher" it'd take quite some convincing to get me to go back.


A more eloquent response, but I think mine probably represents what thousands of ex-teachers said when they heard the idea


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Do you think state schools could do that?



Yes, they could. Lessons prepared centrally, rolled out by the individual schools. There isn't a lot that can't be done, if there is the will to do it.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Yes, they could. Lessons prepared centrally, rolled out by the individual schools. There isn't a lot that can't be done, if there is the will to do it.


Very Napoleonic.
Not how things are done now, Gramps.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

N_igma said:


> When the economy is in recession it doesn’t mean there isn’t an economy it just means it isn’t growing. Why are you worried that the economy isn’t growing? A growing economy requires an increasing consumption of natural and human resources, the exploitation of labour and time etc. I don’t think that should be viewed as a desirable.
> 
> Sure, that’s the gold standard all countries work on to decide whether or not they are doing well but does that come ahead of people’s health and well-being?
> 
> ...



The big hole in your hypothesis is the strength, or lack thereof, of the currency. If your currency tanks against external currency, then you cannot buy what you need. If we followed you model we would never eat an orange again.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Very Napoleonic.
> Not how things are done now, Gramps.


Fuck off you patronising bastard!

You are now on ignore, so fuck off and stop being so bloody rude.


----------



## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

As a former teacher I would go back if I could. But _if _any former teachers want to go back it won't necessarily be possible for them to do so immediately so won't help with reopening schools. That was what I actually said. Way to miss the point, you guys. 

Urban is really fucking weird sometimes.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> it does seem a little odd that the tory government which has over the last 10 years shredded youth services, mental health services, sure start and so on is - all of a sudden - deeply concerned about the welfare of working class children...



The government, again demonstrating little thought, have painted themselves into a corner. They don't want to be seen to be 'backing down' but nor can they force teachers back into a potentially unsafe environment.    Whichever way they go, they lose. Normally it is the job of the opposition to dig the elephant traps, but this government are doing the job themselves.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

once governments begin to ignore Medical advisors we will pay


N_igma said:


> When the economy is in recession it doesn’t mean there isn’t an economy it just means it isn’t growing. Why are you worried that the economy isn’t growing? A growing economy requires an increasing consumption of natural and human resources, the exploitation of labour and time etc. I don’t think that should be viewed as a desirable.
> 
> Sure, that’s the gold standard all countries work on to decide whether or not they are doing well but does that come ahead of people’s health and well-being?
> 
> ...




100% in agreement with you.
I have taught my class online since the 13th march when we went into lockdown. 6 hours a day I am available to them for lessons. GOOGLE classroom has been fantastic.
I've spent at least another 3 hours every evening downloading their work, storing it on an external hard drive, and preparing more lessons.
Children can get as good an education if not better, online.
I've had roughly half my class tell me how they dont miss bullying and yard problems.
Not many miss school. Some miss meeting their friends and that's understandable but you dont open up schools just for socialisation. Health and safety has to come first for everyone involved  including staff.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> As a former teacher I would go back if I could. But _if _any former teachers want to go back it won't necessarily be possible for them to do so immediately so won't help with reopening schools. That was what I actually said. Way to miss the point, you guys.
> 
> Urban is really fucking weird sometimes.



Would you feel completely safe going back? If the answer is 'no', then you shouldn't be there.


----------



## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> The big hole in your hypothesis is the strength, or lack thereof, of the currency. If your currency tanks against external currency, then you cannot buy what you need. If we followed you model we would never eat an orange again.



That's not hugely relevant when the whole world is going through the same problems though. 

Online teaching, even if all kids did have a laptop and reliable internet, couldn't replace real teaching. It simply isn't as good as learning by interacting with your peers. For some subjects, like DT, drama or art, or a lot of science, it barely works at all and requires the kids to have a lot more facilities at home than just a computer.

I mean, it's fine for a short term solution and better than putting kids at risk, but it's not a long-term alternative to regular school.

Sugar Kane - do you really think your online teaching is better than the classroom? For some kids it might be, if they were being bullied,  but it'd be difficult to do a lot of hands-on science experiments or art work because the kids wouldn't have the equipment, and it's more difficult for them to get individual help over zoom (assuming you can't do private lessons for all thirty kids!) At some point there's going to be a limit on what can be taught. 

Even the open university has labs that some science students can access, and summer schools, and that's for adults and by choice.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> As a "former teacher" it'd take quite some convincing to get me to go back.



Over here teachers over 60 are being told they can work from home.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> once governments begin to ignore Medical advisors we will pay
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet according to the odious Brogdale, what you have done isn't possible. Strange that.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> That's not hugely relevant when the whole world is going through the same problems though.
> 
> Online teaching, even if all kids did have a laptop and reliable internet, couldn't replace real teaching. It simply isn't as good as learning by interacting with your peers. For some subjects, like DT, drama or art, or a lot of science, it barely works at all and requires the kids to have a lot more facilities at home than just a computer.




Have to say...you're out of touch.
Online teaching is very effective.  And drama is very workable.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Yet according to the odious Brogdale, what you have done isn't possible. Strange that.




I'm in Ireland. 
I have kids in my class who log into google classroom on phones and do the work on their phone. 
Others have tablets. Not many have laptops but some do.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> That's not hugely relevant when the whole world is going through the same problems though.
> 
> Online teaching, even if all kids did have a laptop and reliable internet, couldn't replace real teaching. It simply isn't as good as learning by interacting with your peers. For some subjects, like DT, drama or art, or a lot of science, it barely works at all and requires the kids to have a lot more facilities at home than just a computer.
> 
> I mean, it's fine for a short term solution and better than putting kids at risk, but it's not a long-term alternative to regular school.



Aye it is at best a stop gap. You need real teachers in real classrooms.


----------



## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Would you feel completely safe going back? If the answer is 'no', then you shouldn't be there.



Jesus Christ, am I writing in Sanskrit or something? Probably a good thing I'm not going back to English teaching given that nobody here seems to be able read what I'm writing.


----------



## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Have to say...you're out of touch.
> Online teaching is very effective.  And drama is very workable.



You have kids doing all their work on _ phones_ and still think it's better than them being in school. I honestly don't think it's me being out of touch that means I'd disagree with that.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> You have kids doing all their work on _ phones_ and still think it's better than them being in school. I honestly don't think it's me being out of touch that means I'd disagree with that.




Oh come on.
I'm saying they can send in word documents and slide presentations just as they might in school.
They're 17  and 18yr olds. And course work is being done by them..and they dont seem to be having as much of a problem as one would think.
They are adapting. 
We chat every day
 They see each other.
Its obviously not the same as being in a classroom but in some ways I am better able to help individuals online than I could in a busy classroom. 
Behavioural problems are fewer. 
And I can prepare a video lesson and deliver it easily without someone deciding to interrupt it for all for the heck of it. 
I would happily teach online for another year if I had to.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Jesus Christ, am I writing in Sanskrit or something? Probably a good thing I'm not going back to English teaching given that nobody here seems to be able read what I'm writing.



No, you are definitely not writing Sanskrit, I can read what you say, and I can't read Sanskrit. 

Let me have another go at this.

You say you would go in if you could.

Does that mean I would go back now, or. does it mean I would go back if it was safe to do so.

Your initial statement 'As a former teacher I would go back if I could. ' is ambiguous, is the 'could' regarding safety at the moment, or is the 'could' referring to the fact that it would be difficult to rejoin the profession?


----------



## ska invita (May 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Oh come on.
> I'm saying they can send in word documents and slide presentations just as they might in school.
> They're 17 yr olds. And course work is being done and they dont seem to be having as much of a problem as one would think.


Friend I spoke to yesterday said vast majority of teenage kids he teaches are ignoring home work. Emails he sends chasing work are ignored. This includes a* kids.


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## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Oh come on.
> I'm saying they can send in word documents and slide presentations just as they might in school.
> They're 17 yr olds. And course work is being done and they dont seem to be having as much of a problem as one would think.



All typed on their phones? That's pretty far from ideal. 

A lot of subjects would find it impossible to deliver a full curriculum remotely. Do many teenagers have a bunsen burner and test tubes at home? Do they have a kiln and pottery wheel, or even an easel and paint? Circuit boards? Computers with photoshop? Woodworking materials? Etc etc. 

Or are they supposed to learn only what they can study via reading and watching videos on their phones?

I think I might put this thread on ignore for a while. It's got a bit weird.


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## Thora (May 17, 2020)

17 & 18 year olds - fine.  I did an OU degree mostly online and with only a few face to face tutorials and it was great.

However, I have a 6 & 9 year old (and a toddler) and me and my partner are both working.  I have a phone and a chromebook,  The 9 year old can be reasonably independent but the 6 year old can't at all and they can't really do any work at the same time.


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## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, you are definitely not writing Sanskrit, I can read what you say, and I can't read Sanskrit.
> 
> Let me have another go at this.
> 
> ...



I can't go back regardless of corona because of my health problems. Tbh I thought I'd moaned about those problems too much in general so most people would be aware of them without me having to spell it out - perhaps I haven't after all.


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## scifisam (May 17, 2020)

Thora said:


> 17 & 18 year olds - fine.  I did an OU degree mostly online and with only a few face to face tutorials and it was great.
> 
> However, I have a 6 & 9 year old (and a toddler) and me and my partner are both working.  I have a phone and a chromebook,  The 9 year old can be reasonably independent but the 6 year old can't at all and they can't really do any work at the same time.



It does depend on the subject though. Most science degrees can't be completed entirely online even via the OU. And J's course requires her to learn multiple different types of software that there's simply no way we can afford at home, or computers good enough to handle them.


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## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I can't go back regardless of corona because of my health problems. Tbh I thought I'd moaned about those problems too much in general so most people would be aware of them without me having to spell it out - perhaps I haven't after all.



I am but one person. I spend too much time on here, but cannot possibly read everything. Had I been aware of your health problems, then I wouldn't have asked the question.


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## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Friend I spoke to yesterday said vast majority of teenage kids he teaches are ignoring home work. Emails he sends chasing work are ignored. This includes a* kids.



Yeah. That happens. 
I'm just saying that if a situation arose where we needed to teach online 3 out of 5 days a week it would not be the end of the world.


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## philosophical (May 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Have to say...you're out of touch.
> Online teaching is very effective.  And drama is very workable.


Is Drama workable?
Like 'get into pairs/groups of four' or whatever?
Trust exercises?
Physical work?
Games even?

Not sure how an interactive subject like Drama can work online.


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## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Is Drama workable?
> Like 'get into pairs/groups of four' or whatever?
> Trust exercises?
> Physical work?
> ...



Group work...probably not. 
But we have had lessons with role play online. Basic enough I guess.


----------



## N_igma (May 17, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> The big hole in your hypothesis is the strength, or lack thereof, of the currency. If your currency tanks against external currency, then you cannot buy what you need. If we followed you model we would never eat an orange again.



Aye it’s a damn shame the UK is the only country in the world right now in the grips of this pandemic. Countries everywhere around the world are printing money to shore up their economies. When there is a risk of deflation, which there certainly is when there are businesses closed everywhere and no one spending money on consumer goods, then there's nothing wrong with the Government printing money. 

Quantitative Easing is not a new thing, it was done in 2008 and post-WW2. In fact, Governments _not _doing it in the 1930s led to the Great Depression. Give your head a wobble would you.


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## Raheem (May 17, 2020)

Teaching motivated 17 and 18 year-olds online at the moment is undoubtedly going to be wonderful. But it's not the whole of the profession.

It's a bit like the owner of a bog roll and gym equipment factory wondering why other people are talking about a recession.


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## Gramsci (May 17, 2020)

Perhaps it could be time to rethink education.

From posts here looks like some children like working from home. I take the point that some teaching ( science, drama etc ) cant all be done online.

Perhaps children could be consulted more about return to schools. Some might want to Some might like to stay working online and going to school few days a week.

Drama for instance could be done outside of the school system My local theatre - Oval House_ does a lot of work with young people.

As this is unintended experiment in teaching with no school it could be seen as opportunity to rethink education.

Even though Im supporting the teaching profession here I personally hated school. I dont have good memories of my time forced to attend school. Or of teachers.

Years of "education" put me off institutionalised education for life.

I wish I could have not attended school and done learning online without having to go in.

I know a lot of of issues with home learning. Families without access to spare rooms , good internet and computers are at disadvantage.

Only education I liked was adult education - City Lit etc in London. That was take it or leave it. That used to be cheap - its to expensive now.

I think education should be moved away from herding people compulsory into schools Instead have life long learning based around adult education

Im quite happy reading and using Youtube to get lectures about stuff I want to learn about . Its that I didnt have time to do it enough due to work

The reason Im supporting teachers now is I think government is bullying them to go back to work And bullying by authority is something that I hate

Edit: to add. I went to school in the 70s - this country was not that enlightened then education wise. Not where I grew up


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## Aladdin (May 17, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Teaching motivated 17 and 18 year-olds online at the moment is undoubtedly going to be wonderful. But it's not the whole of the profession.
> 
> It's a bit like the owner of a bog roll and gym equipment factory wondering why other people are talking about a recession.



I work with teenagers who have learning difficulties who have been excluded from mainstream.
Most of them are more motivated by online classes than they were onsite. 
It has surprised me how some have taken to it like a duck to water.


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## Humberto (May 17, 2020)

Well I'm for the union and the Daily Mail can fuck off.


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## Celyn (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Is Drama workable?
> Like 'get into pairs/groups of four' or whatever?
> Trust exercises?
> Physical work?
> ...


Hell, if I were still at school, I might have bribed any nearby chemist to invent a big bad plague just to let us avoid all that sort of thing.

Really, does anyone think that drama classes are the most important thing just now?


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## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Truly fucking hated school too, Gramsci and it put me off learning for a long time. Unfortunately I had confused the education system with learning and assumed that I hated to learn. 

I do think our education system could do with a massive shake up and now is the nearest we'll ever get to having the opportunity.


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## Red Cat (May 18, 2020)

Celyn said:


> Hell, if I were still at school, I might have bribed any nearby chemist to invent a big bad plague just to let us avoid all that sort of thing.
> 
> Really, does anyone think that drama classes are the most important thing just now?



Probably not, but I imagine it's quite important if you're a drama teacher or if you're a young person who loves the subject.


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## ska invita (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> I do think our education system could do with a massive shake up and now is the nearest we'll ever get to having the opportunity.


Be careful what you wish for. "We" haven't got the opportunity, "they" do. With a massive majority in the commons to boot


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## Celyn (May 18, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> Probably not, but I imagine it's quite important if you're a drama teacher or if you're a young person who loves the subject.


Well, yes. 

In the context of how to sort out availability of _some_ school-based education for _some_ pupils, it might not be the most pressing need at present.


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## Petcha (May 18, 2020)

Sorry, couldn't read 17 pages, but my two pennies. I have a three YO who lives with my ex. We are very much in two minds about this. I really want him to go back as these are crucial years to make friends and as my ex's first language is not English he appears to be more fluent in her language than the one in the country he lives in, England. Which is another argument for another thread. But we really don't know what to do. It's an awful situation and I appreciate that the Government is in a terrible position here. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't basically. It's impossible. I don't envy whoever has final signoff on this.


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## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

The people who have to work in schools should have a say.
I know that I am extremely relieved that the government and unions here have decided that staff with underlying health conditions can work from home
 I am looking forward to finding creative ways to manage my classroom. I suspect I will be asked to teach the children who also have to stay at home because of underlying health conditions. It will be challenging and different but I like shaking things up and finding new ways to do things. 
Roll on 2021.


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## Spandex (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Perhaps it could be time to rethink education.
> 
> From posts here looks like some children like working from home. I take the point that some teaching ( science, drama etc ) cant all be done online.
> 
> ...


The problem with the idea of moving schooling online is that it will remove the most important part of being at school; more important than maths or english or science or drama. School is where children learn to interact and deal with other people. It's where children learn practical social skills. It's where children learn to develop friendships, that everyone is not like them, that they'll like some people and not others and how to manage that and the emotions that come with it. It's where children become independent of their parents. It's where they mix with people from different backgrounds.

Remove children from schools and you lose this essential part of their education.


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## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Petcha said:


> Sorry, couldn't read 17 pages, but my two pennies. I have a three YO who lives with my ex. We are very much in two minds about this. I really want him to go back as these are crucial years to make friends and as my ex's first language is not English he appears to be more fluent in her language than the one in the country he lives in, England. Which is another argument for another thread. But we really don't know what to do. It's an awful situation and I appreciate that the Government is in a terrible position here. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't basically. It's impossible. I don't envy whoever has final signoff on this.



I do understand the empathy that people have for the government's current situation but they all wanted this power and to be in those jobs. They just didn't think that it would get real. Well it has and they are in the driving seat. More's the pity.


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## planetgeli (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I work with teenagers who have learning difficulties who have been excluded from mainstream.
> Most of them are more motivated by online classes than they were onsite.
> It has surprised me how some have taken to it like a duck to water.



I'm not having a go at you and I know your post has 5 likes as I type...but this is absolutely NOT the experience of my under 16 excluded from mainstream kids, they are doing virtually no work at all and it's a PITA trying to convince them every day of the week that they might like to try. I have also heard the same story from mainstream kids.

I don't think your post reflects the typical experience, however much people might want it to.


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## brogdale (May 18, 2020)

I'm sure that there's significant demotivation amongst many pupils, especially those that were working towards tests and exams that have necessarily been cancelled.

With so much school time and effort directed towards examination attainment & success, it must be very disorientating for pupils to realise that all of that was for nought.


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## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I'm not having a go at you and I know your post has 5 likes as I type...but this is absolutely NOT the experience of my under 16 excluded from mainstream kids, they are doing virtually no work at all and it's a PITA trying to convince them every day of the week that they might like to try. I have also heard the same story from mainstream kids.
> 
> I don't think your post reflects the typical experience, however much people might want it to.



And I was only describing my experience.


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## bmd (May 18, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I'm not having a go at you and I know your post has 5 likes as I type...but this is absolutely NOT the experience of my under 16 excluded from mainstream kids, they are doing virtually no work at all and it's a PITA trying to convince them every day of the week that they might like to try. I have also heard the same story from mainstream kids.
> 
> I don't think your post reflects the typical experience, however much people might want it to.



There was a great piece on R4 yesterday about how kids have adapted to lockdown schooling. One of the bits about cheating made me smile and also helped me to understand that remote teaching has some completely new challenges.


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## Edie (May 18, 2020)

My 15 year old is doing the square root of fuck all.


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## Edie (May 18, 2020)

This is what we get messaged about almost exclusively:



This and school dinners, which you can also collect from a queue by the library.


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## MickiQ (May 18, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I'm not having a go at you and I know your post has 5 likes as I type...but this is absolutely NOT the experience of my under 16 excluded from mainstream kids, they are doing virtually no work at all and it's a PITA trying to convince them every day of the week that they might like to try. I have also heard the same story from mainstream kids.
> 
> I don't think your post reflects the typical experience, however much people might want it to.


Mrs Q teaches maths in a successful comprehensive school, On those occasions I am able to successfully feign interest, she tells me that the motivated kids are thriving in this environment including one or two who have surprised her now that they are not being distracted by their classmates. But they are definitely in the minority, some of the rest are making a token effort and quite a lot are just not bothering at all. This is a sought school rated as excellent whose entrance rolls are invariably oversubscribed as well, she dreads to think what it might be like in a lot of places.
She has however expressed the opinion that she isn't interested in Gove's (a man she outright despises) offering her a chance to be a hero though.


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## MickiQ (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> My 15 year old is doing the square root of fuck all.


Sounds like a fairly normal teenager Edie


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> My 15 year old is doing the square root of fuck all.



I'm not surprised. I'm finding it hard to stay motivated, as an adult with responsibilities. It must be really tough for a 15 year old lad.


----------



## Serge Forward (May 18, 2020)

Celyn said:


> Hell, if I were still at school, I might have bribed any nearby chemist to invent a big bad plague just to let us avoid all that sort of thing.
> 
> Really, does anyone think that drama classes are the most important thing just now?


Back to the "three Rs" eh. Drama sounds lovely. I wish they'd had drama classes when I was at school, instead of the tedious shite they put us through - all with the sole intention of getting us to knuckle under before sending us over the top as factory fodder.


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## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> My 15 year old is doing the square root of fuck all.



I had a lot of problems with zero, in maths, for ages. Why ask me to multiply nothing? That was genuinely the speed bump I had with it.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Sounds like a fairly normal teenager Edie


Yeah it’s okay cos apparently he’s signing up at 15 years and 7 months. _Despite never having voluntarily got out of bed and being literally incapable of taking a single instruction from an adult._


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

My youngest's school is sending increasingly concerned messages asking parents to check in, please can you send a photo or video of your child, please answer your phone if it's an unknown number it'll be Mrs C calling.  I'm guessing from that that they are having minimal contact with lots of families.


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## Chilli.s (May 18, 2020)

I'm so glad to have resigned from working in a school.

The hero thing is so fucking rude, emotional blackmail to get decent, committed, skilled people to do something risky for no reward.


----------



## MickiQ (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Yeah it’s okay cos apparently he’s signing up at 15 years and 7 months. _Despite never having voluntarily got out of bed and being literally incapable of taking a single instruction from an adult._


And you sound like the normal mother of  a teenage boy Edie, Teenage boys are truly awful fucking things, I know I used to be one. Don't write the boy off yet, most turn out OK in the end.


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## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> This is what we get messaged about almost exclusively:
> 
> View attachment 213201
> This and school dinners, which you can also collect from a queue by the library.



I think the most important message we can gather from this text is that punctuation is not the sender's strong point. I hope you pointed that out.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Yeah it’s okay cos apparently he’s signing up at 15 years and 7 months. _Despite never having voluntarily got out of bed and being literally incapable of taking a single instruction from an adult._


Do you mean he's planning on joining the army? I know a lad who signed up for that very reason - he wanted to learn some self discipline and thought the army would sort him out. He didn't last very long.


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## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> I'm so glad to have resigned from working in a school.
> 
> The hero thing is so fucking rude, emotional blackmail to get decent, committed, skilled people to do something risky for no reward.



Rude? Well, yes. I prefer 'willing to use teacher's lives as fuel for the economy's starter motor.'


----------



## Sue (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> Do you mean he's planning on joining the army? I know a lad who signed up for that very reason - he wanted to learn some self discipline and thought the army would sort him out. He didn't last very long.


Likewise. He was home within six weeks.


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## brogdale (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> My 15 year old is doing the square root of fuck all.


That would have been my response, I'm sure.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> I think the most important message we can gather from this text is that punctuation is not the sender's strong point. I hope you pointed that out.


I think the most important message is that high schools like his in Leeds are much more concerned with making sure kids are fed than what they are learning. Which is obviously understandable but does not bode well for exam results.

My eldest left and went to sixth form at a much better school. He’s been lent a laptop, has been rung regularly, the school even has a ‘learning mentor’ whose sole job it is to check if kids are up to date with the work and flag up if not.

That’s the difference. Holt Park in Leeds is scrabbling to hand out bagels and beans to kids who aren’t eating, Alwoodley is handing out laptops. Guess which kids are gonna do better at their GCSEs if this continues?


----------



## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I think the most important message is that high schools like his in Leeds are much more concerned with making sure kids are fed than what they are learning. Which is obviously understandable but does not bode well for exam results.
> 
> My eldest left and went to sixth form at a much better school. He’s been lent a laptop, has been rung regularly, the school even has a ‘learning mentor’ whose sole job it is to check if kids are up to date with the work and flag up if not.
> 
> That’s the difference. Holt Park in Leeds is scrabbling to hand out bagels and beans to kids who aren’t eating, Alwoodley is handing out laptops. Guess which kids are gonna do better at their GCSEs if this continues?



Absolutely and when it comes right down to it, this is due to the will of a few teachers rather than any particular issue with the education system. Glad your eldest is doing well.


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## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I think the most important message is that high schools like his in Leeds are much more concerned with making sure kids are fed than what they are learning. Which is obviously understandable but does not bode well for exam results.
> 
> My eldest left and went to sixth form at a much better school. He’s been lent a laptop, has been rung regularly, the school even has a ‘learning mentor’ whose sole job it is to check if kids are up to date with the work and flag up if not.
> 
> That’s the difference. Holt Park in Leeds is scrabbling to hand out bagels and beans to kids who aren’t eating, Alwoodley is handing out laptops. Guess which kids are gonna do better at their GCSEs if this continues?



I imagine there are reasons why the two schools have a different 'focus' aren't there? Why do you think that is? I am asking because I don't know Leeds and what the differences are between those two areas? Could it be something to do with the socio-economic circurmstances of the local populations? Could it be because of access to resources and the wealth of the schools?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> Do you mean he's planning on joining the army? I know a lad who signed up for that very reason - he wanted to learn some self discipline and thought the army would sort him out. He didn't last very long.



And how is Billy Bragg these days?


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> And how is Billy Bragg these days?


Did Billy bragg do that too? I guess it's a common reason for joining up. It's the thrust of some of their recruitment ads in fact...


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> Absolutely and when it comes right down to it, *this is due to the will of a few teachers rather than any particular issue with the education system*. Glad your eldest is doing well.



Really? You think these differences in how much a school can offer kids is down to the will of teachers?


----------



## cantsin (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> once governments begin to ignore Medical advisors we will pay
> 
> 
> 
> ...



my mate who teaches up here is doing exactly the same as you, and agrees they're doing good stuff online - but he estimates he's ' lost ' 30 % of his classes -  not logging on at all ( some no doubt  w/o access to laptop, or the time / space to access in any practical way ) or messing about doing stuff when logged on etc - most of then from disadvantaged backgrounds, but many of them kids he can engage with and get motivated IRL,  + just can't in virtual world.

He's also a union bod / lefty, and thinks going back in June is a dangerous farce, and that there's going to be v little take up / no one coming in, and will disintegrate


----------



## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Really? You think these differences in how much a school can offer kids is down to the will of teachers?



I do believe that a person's will and the desire to carry it out has a huge affect on the outcome of whatever they are focused on.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

TBH even if it were true that the difference between different schools was how committed the teachers were (lol), that in itself would be a massive issue with the education system


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> I do believe that a person's will and the desire to carry it out has a huge affect on the outcome of whatever they are focused on.



Well of course that's true for every one but I am uncomfortable with the suggestion that it's down to the will of teachers how much capacity they have to deliver a _decent_ education.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Christ, we're back to blaming teachers now aren't we...if only they cared a bit more, weren't lazy fuckers and committed to their pupils like proper heroes do.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

It's funny how the schools in the middle class areas attract the most committed teachers, and all the idle fuckers end up at the schools with the highest percentage of free school meals. I wonder how that happens.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> Absolutely and when it comes right down to it, this is due to the will of a few teachers rather than any particular issue with the education system.



This is perhaps the most ridiculous thing posted on this thread.


----------



## planetgeli (May 18, 2020)

cantsin said:


> and that there's going to be v little take up / no one coming in, and will disintegrate



It's obvious this will be the case.

Social distancing was brought in a few days before lockdown. So we were going to school thinking how on Earth are we supposed to social distance in a school? This led to, just a few days before lockdown came in, the mainstream schools in my area who have a normal cohort of 1500 pupils having just 500 pupils attending. At my own school we had 20% attendance.

As they've already said parents won't be fined for keeping their kids off school guess what's going to happen? But at least it gives the Mail and the government another chance to bash teacher's Unions.


----------



## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> This is perhaps the most ridiculous thing posted on this thread.



Don't stop now. Why are there differences in schools?


----------



## bmd (May 18, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Well of course that's true for every one but I am uncomfortable with the suggestion that it's down to the will of teachers how much capacity they have to deliver a _decent_ education.



Then you'll have to deal with that because that's not what I'm saying. I do find it irritating that you have decided for me what my intentions are over that post though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> Then you'll have to deal with that because that's not what I'm saying. I do find it irritating that you have decided for me what my intentions are over that post though.



I haven't, I am trying to understand what you are saying and your comment about the 'will' of some teachers is what has lead me to post what I have. If I've misunderstood you please clarify because from where i'm reading you are laying the responsibility for kids getting a decent education solely on the will of a few committed teachers. That's context free, that doesn't take any variables around resources/funding/needs etc.


----------



## cantsin (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> Then you'll have to deal with that because that's not what I'm saying. I do find it irritating that you have decided for me what my intentions are over that post though.



sorry to hear you find responses to your posts ' irritating', but it can't be surprising that you get negative responses when posting troll - esque bobbins like that surely ?


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> Don't stop now. Why are there differences in schools?



For a start, schools who have a large proportion of students who aren't even being fed have to overcome that basic need before they can begin to think about teaching; that's a matter of poverty/inequality, not the "will of a few teachers".


----------



## isvicthere? (May 18, 2020)

Here in Spain, where there has been a properly enforced real lockdown, which started significantly before Britain's, schools aren't going back until at least September.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I can see how it looks from this pov. But I think there’s an absolute assumption on the left (and I’m sure the right too) that you know best for people, and that (pretty much exclusively left) that you have a monopoly on caring about others. Neither of those things are true. People just disagree about what is best.
> 
> It’s pretty apparent from this thread that people are either unwilling or unable to look properly at the prospect of recession, and the misery and loss of life that inevitably entails. Why is that?
> 
> ...



I actually kind of get where you're coming from in some ways and I agree a lot of people 'on the left' for what that's worth have got very wrapped up in the debate about safety to the exclusion of everything else. 

Where I think you're mistaken though is that you're saying those arguing that schools shouldn't reopen think a recession can be avoided, when in fact you seem to be suggesting it can be mitigated if kids go back to school. It can't, the second phase of the global economic crisis is here and it's gonna be bad.


----------



## zahir (May 18, 2020)

Study of a school based outbreak in France





__





						Cluster of COVID-19 in northern France: A retrospective closed cohort study
					

Background The Oise department in France has been heavily affected by COVID-19 in early 2020.  Methods Between 30 March and 4 April 2020, we conducted a retrospective closed cohort study among pupils, their parents and siblings, as well as teachers and non-teaching staff of a high-school located...




					www.medrxiv.org
				












						What a French study says about possible school openings
					

In France, over 40 percent of people in a high school had contracted the corona virus. However, the study is not transferable to Germany. © Photo: Felix Kästle / dpa Control is better. There will b…




					www.web24.news
				





> A study from northern France provides information on the infection process in schools. In retrospect, the outbreak of the coronavirus was documented in a high school in Oise. Around 660 antibody tests were carried out on teachers, students, parents and siblings. A “slowly escalating outbreak” had taken place within five weeks, said the Berlin virologist Christian Drosten in the “NDR podcast”.
> 
> The result of the study: According to Drosten, 38.3 percent of the schoolchildren were infected in five weeks, 43.4 percent of the teachers and 60 percent of the other employees (canteen staff, caretaker, etc.). “These are numbers, you have to say: if that happens in schools, then you cannot open schools. That really infects over 40 percent on average. ”Drosten thinks these numbers are quite“ impressive ”.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> Recession is a choice.
> 
> Capital and the State could respond in a similar manner to 1945 instead.
> 
> But they'll only do that if - as in 1945 - we force their hand.



In 1945 the US provided a lot of cheap credit as well don't forget.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> I actually kind of get where you're coming from in some ways and I agree a lot of people 'on the left' for what that's worth have got very wrapped up in the debate about safety to the exclusion of everything else.
> 
> Where I think you're mistaken though is that you're saying those arguing that schools shouldn't reopen think a recession can be avoided, when in fact you seem to be suggesting it can be mitigated if kids go back to school. It can't, the second phase of the global economic crisis is here and it's gonna be bad.


Quite possibly so. But it’s okay, no need to do anything, because _theoretically_ it could be avoided if there was radical political shift and wealth distribution. Let’s hope all the people who lose there jobs and whose kids have to queue for beans and bagels feel reassured by that theoretical reassurance eh!


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 18, 2020)

Schools should re-open at some point and it should be when teachers and parents decide. 

We've got the NEU saying they'll tell members to refuse to work under section 44. We've got 3 Labour councils (Liverpool, Rochdale, Hartlepool) refusing to re-open schools with possibly more to follow. And at some point I hope we'll see organised groups of parents going beyond simply not wanting to send their kids back their to organising mass stay aways. 

1st June could be a very interesting date, I actually agree with Sasaferrato that the govt might decide this date isn't practical, but that assumes this lot know when to tactically retreat.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

isvicthere? said:


> Here in Spain, where there has been a properly enforced real lockdown, which started significantly before Britain's, schools aren't going back until at least September.



My partner is Spanish. Compared to Spain this country has only had a partial lockdown.

Its also the PSOE/ Podemos in charge not the Right.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Quite possibly so. But it’s okay, no need to do anything, because _theoretically_ it could be avoided if there was radical political shift and wealth distribution. Let’s hope all the people who lose there jobs and whose kids have to queue for beans and bagels feel reassured by that theoretical reassurance eh!



Oh come on Edie. There are reasons why those kids are already queuing for beans and beigels aren't there? Whether through the school or foodbanks this need already exists.

This isn't about theoretical reassurance, it's about having an honest conversation about the situation we are already in and why some schools are having to give out food in the first place surely?

What differences are there between the two schools your boys go to? In terms of area, resources etc?


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Quite possibly so. But it’s okay, no need to do anything, because _theoretically_ it could be avoided if there was radical political shift and wealth distribution. Let’s hope all the people who lose there jobs and whose kids have to queue for beans and bagels feel reassured by that theoretical reassurance eh!



Yeah perhaps some people do put it in very abstract/lofty terms and are very casual about a serious issue. 

But teachers risking their lives won't fix the economy, will it?


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Quite possibly so. But it’s okay, no need to do anything, because _theoretically_ it could be avoided if there was radical political shift and wealth distribution. Let’s hope all the people who lose there jobs and whose kids have to queue for beans and bagels feel reassured by that theoretical reassurance eh!



Ive already lost my job.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Quite possibly so. But it’s okay, no need to do anything, because _theoretically_ it could be avoided if there was radical political shift and wealth distribution. Let’s hope all the people who lose there jobs and whose kids have to queue for beans and bagels feel reassured by that theoretical reassurance eh!


It's reasonable to argue that the recession is already going to be much deeper and longer than it needs to be because of the mishandling of the early response to the pandemic - so it's hardly surprising that a push to start reopening early is going to be contested - it's not just on_ theoretical _grounds.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Quite possibly so. But it’s okay, no need to do anything, because _theoretically_ it could be avoided if there was radical political shift and wealth distribution. Let’s hope all the people who lose there jobs and whose kids have to queue for beans and bagels feel reassured by that theoretical reassurance eh!



It needn't be theoretical, at all.  Whilst many of us would like to see a real radical shift, there's plenty of smaller steps in the right direction that could be done to address these issues, many of which have already beeen mentioned on this thread.  How about taxing those on higher incomes, to fund benefits at a liveable level, or invest in the technology to make it more effective for kids to learn from home, or to provide adequate testing and PPE for workers expected to put themselves at risk, etc.  Requisitioning empty properties to get the homeless off the streets.  And workers leveraging their collective power to demand e.g. safer conditions be prioritised over profits.  Abandoning plans to punish overseas NHS workers.  Borrowing to fund a better society.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> In 1945 the US provided a lot of cheap credit as well don't forget.



Of course.

I'm not advocating a repeat of the post-45 measures. I'm challenging the notion of what's "natural" or inevitable about recession and for the widening of our horizons of "the possible".

1945 is just an illustration.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> Don't stop now. Why are there differences in schools?



Just read this.









						Policy Press | Miseducation - Inequality, Education and the Working Classes, By Diane Reay
					

Miseducation - Inequality, Education and the Working Classes; This book brings Brian Jackson and Dennis Marsden’s pioneering Education and the Working Class from 1962 up to date for the 21st century and reveals what we can do to achieve a fairer education system.




					policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (May 18, 2020)

11th and 12th year students back to day in Portugal. Wearing masks are compulsory, desks are distanced.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Another aspect to this discussion...the idea that the right/capitalist class are actually all round decent folk and this is simply down to a difference of opinion.  

There are literally books/readers on how to take advantage of economic crisis...here's a hand picked few from the same family... We don't all approach these situations from the same position of wanting whats good for 'all'...that simply isn't true and we all need to be honest about that. Theorectical perspectives are already institutionalised, which ones reassure you is very much about how these things impact you/personal IMO.







So no, the left don't have any monopoly on the ability to 'care', of course not. It's more about 'who' and 'what' people care about, and most importantly 'why'.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> Schools should re-open at some point and it should be when teachers and parents decide.
> 
> We've got the NEU saying they'll tell members to refuse to work under section 44. We've got 3 Labour councils (Liverpool, Rochdale, Hartlepool) refusing to re-open schools with possibly more to follow. And at some point I hope we'll see organised groups of parents going beyond simply not wanting to send their kids back their to organising mass stay aways.
> 
> 1st June could be a very interesting date, I actually agree with Sasaferrato that the govt might decide this date isn't practical, but that assumes this lot know when to tactically retreat.


Childcare providers don't seem to get any mention in this.  While schools are closed teachers are being paid, but childcare workers are getting at best, 80% of minimum wage.  Lots of childcare providers need to start work again on 1st June and are really hoping that on the 28th May the government will say they can.
If schools are a hotbed of infection, nurseries must be much worse.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Spandex said:


> The problem with the idea of moving schooling online is that it will remove the most important part of being at school; more important than maths or english or science or drama. School is where children learn to interact and deal with other people. It's where children learn practical social skills. It's where children learn to develop friendships, that everyone is not like them, that they'll like some people and not others and how to manage that and the emotions that come with it. It's where children become independent of their parents. It's where they mix with people from different backgrounds.
> 
> Remove children from schools and you lose this essential part of their education.



I did go to school in 60s and 70s before Comprehensives and new forms of teaching. So got a dose of old school education. Which colours what I think of schools

My partner is doing Montessori teacher training. And Ive talked to a few teachers and the way schilldren are treated is some schools has changed a lot. So my views on education / teachers have mellowed..

The main reason I wished I could have has online learning and not gone too school is precisely what you say schools are for. The are institutions to socialise people into society Coming from a background that meant I was a square peg where school tried to push me into a round hole it was horrible.

The annoyance for my teachers was that I was actually quite academically bright and did well at exams. But that is only part of what schools as institutions are about.

Always have been interested in learning not in education. Losing my job ( apart from lack of money) has meant Ive started reading again and watching lectures on youtube. If it wasnt for lack of money Im quite happy doing my voluntary work and reading on subjects that interest me. Ive started doing Yoga with my partner Plenty to do that is constructive without the daily grind of work. Making my boss richer as I told ex workmate recently

Another thing. I and other locals helped save the local Adventure playground. Its now ( closed for pandemic) very popular. The youth workers are very good. The kids want too come. They learn all the things you are saying ( which are important) in an environment that is not "school". Its not a free for all but its not coercive either. Looked at the history of APGs and it comes out of the importance of play for learning.

The idea of schools as buildings one must attend is not the only way to do things. Schools as they function now have a history.

What Im saying is that children arent being asked what they want. I said some might want to go to school a few days a week. Some might like online learning . Some might want to go to local theatre and do Drama. Other less coercive ways of education like adventure playgrounds can be supported.


----------



## ska invita (May 18, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> 1st June could be a very interesting date, I actually agree with Sasaferrato that the govt might decide this date isn't practical, but that assumes this lot know when to tactically retreat.


The government will do what they've done up to now, nudge, fudge, eat cake and have it... Get as many people back to school as possible without making it mandatory in any way you they can be responsible. Teachers and parents choice makes them culpable when the inevitable outbreak happens. 1st June will stand I expect


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Perhaps it could be time to rethink education.
> 
> From posts here looks like some children like working from home. I take the point that some teaching ( science, drama etc ) cant all be done online.
> 
> ...



I agree it is possibly a good moment to re-think education.
There is an argument to say schooling and education are different things. Or that education is going on all the time everywhere for everybody anyway, and that the establishment of schools and schooling is an associated feature.
If it is all about knowledge then access to that knowledge has changed in the technological world, even intellectual challenge and debate (for those willing) can happen online.
Maybe schooling is really an elaborate form of childcare to free up the parents, a cost effective system for doing so if the group sizes are large enough.
Or maybe the value of schooling is the social interaction, and when 'teachers' get involved it is structured social interaction. Possibly the main purpose of schooling is to feed the imagination and fuel creativity, or a place in which children have access to resources. I wonder if 'subjects' as a template is a format past it's sell by date.
Incidentally your linking of Drama and theatre is a minor part of Drama education (research Dorothy Heathcote for more). Physical Education is not included to create winners at sport (a by product) but of value in itself, Drama Education is not about creating actors (we probably need more gardeners) but of value in itself.
It seems to me that the value of sending kids to school is because they are places that DON'T practice social isolation. Where interaction, experimentation, mucking about, and being a safeish place to make mistakes is important. A kind of sweaty and organic place that accepts the whole person not only the formalised brainpower of a person. Brainpower that can be measured by authorities.
As a retired Drama teacher I remember years ago a student saying to me 'you don't learn anything in Drama, but you get better at it'. I wish I'd come up with that.


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2020)

Celyn said:


> Hell, if I were still at school, I might have bribed any nearby chemist to invent a big bad plague just to let us avoid all that sort of thing.
> 
> Really, does anyone think that drama classes are the most important thing just now?



Ask the students/children. Very many may say their drama lessons are the most important thing right now.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Problem is there is always risk - it is about balancing risks and mitigating them. If the end result of this were a massive school building programme and class sizes of 15 then the risks could be sensibly mitigated.



The limiting factor on class sizes is teachers, not real estate.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> It needn't be theoretical, at all.  Whilst many of us would like to see a real radical shift, there's plenty of smaller steps in the right direction that could be done to address these issues, many of which have already beeen mentioned on this thread.  How about taxing those on higher incomes, to fund benefits at a liveable level, or invest in the technology to make it more effective for kids to learn from home, or to provide adequate testing and PPE for workers expected to put themselves at risk, etc.  Requisitioning empty properties to get the homeless off the streets.  And workers leveraging their collective power to demand e.g. safer conditions be prioritised over profits.  Abandoning plans to punish overseas NHS workers.  Borrowing to fund a better society.


Dont disagree with any of that (except maybe the borrowing, although I my grasp of economics isn’t good enough).


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Ive already lost my job.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Ive already lost my job.


very sorry to hear that ((((Gramsci))))


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Dont disagree with any of that (except maybe the borrowing, although I my grasp of economics isn’t good enough).


We paid off the money we borrowed to fund the end of slavery a few years ago. Borrowing is fine.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

The reason why the "Left" might appear "risk averse" is that a lot of working class jobs involve a higher level of risk. Manual labour jobs for example have a lot of physical injuries.

So it can appear on surface that the so called "Left" are going on about it a lot. 

In fact a lot of working class jobs ( like mine) involved a high level of risk every working day,

So I could do without being told the "left" is risk averse.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Sounds like a fairly normal teenager Edie


My grandson has to be dynamited out of bed at the moment. He's effectively finished school, and is waiting for a college course in plumbing.


----------



## The39thStep (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I did go to school in 60s and 70s before Comprehensives and new forms of teaching. So got a dose of old school education. Which colours what I think of schools
> 
> My partner is doing Montessori teacher training. And Ive talked to a few teachers and the way schilldren are treated is some schools has changed a lot. So my views on education / teachers have mellowed..
> 
> ...


I once went with a friend of mine to pick up her son from a Montessori nursery and one of the staff wouldn't let me in as I had a No Nukes badge or something similar on .


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The reason why the "Left" might appear "risk averse" is that a lot of working class jobs involve a higher level of risk. Manual labour jobs for example have a lot of physical injuries.
> 
> So it can appear on surface that the so called "Left" are going on about it a lot.
> 
> ...


Exactly.
My eldest boy has worked frontline in HE support throughout the pandemic with not one jot of PPE provided by his employers.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So I could do without being told the "left" is risk averse.



Workshy.
Lazy.
Not living in the 'real world'.
Only have themselves to blame.
Should've worked harder at school.
Need to accept the natural order of things.
Don't know they're born.
Addicted to 'handouts'
Politics of envy.
Out of step with the 'majority'.

Put up and shut up basically.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

bmd said:


> I had a lot of problems with zero, in maths, for ages. Why ask me to multiply nothing? That was genuinely the speed bump I had with it.


Mine was how the fuck can you multiply less than zero by itself, and end up with something? If that shit actually worked, you could multiply two overdrawn accounts and end up owing the bank.  

Arithmetic I can do, I still multiply two thee digit numbers in my head, just to make sure the cogs can still turn. That little skill got my car washed and polished for me, grandson bet me I couldn't do it.


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Have to say...you're out of touch.
> Online teaching is very effective.  And drama is very workable.


We are finding it very bad for our SEN students who have very weak literacy and poor IT skills.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The government will do what they've done up to now, nudge, fudge, eat cake and have it... Get as many people back to school as possible without making it mandatory in any way you they can be responsible. Teachers and parents choice makes them culpable when the inevitable outbreak happens. 1st June will stand I expect



That could well be the case but we have a couple of weeks to build momentum.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Let’s be honest, schools staying closed is an absolute disaster for many working class kids. From the basic level of eating (my kids school provides both breakfast for all and lunch to a good number, unbelievable really that parents can’t feed their own kids), through to providing safe childcare and monitoring of social issues (schools providing Tier 1 and 2 mental healthcare, acting as contact between home and children’s social care, representing at CIN panels etc), through to actual education (and lack of space to study at home, lack of computer, lack of middle class parents working from home and supervising).

Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I'm in Ireland.
> I have kids in my class who log into google classroom on phones and do the work on their phone.
> Others have tablets. Not many have laptops but some do.


I think the time has more than come where every child has a school provided laptop.


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Have to say...you're out of touch.
> Online teaching is very effective.  And drama is very workable.



I am intrigued by your thinking that Drama is very workable online.
Now it may be that we have differing ideas as to what educational drama is, but you say with impressive confidence that Drama (educational drama?) is very workable, and I wonder if you could please expand on that and describe how.
It may be that what you know could apply to all practical and interactive areas of schooling.


----------



## Big Bertha (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> A worry for my partner is that when her school re opens on 1st June she will have to use public transport to get to work ( London).
> 
> Apart from safety issues in school this re opening of schools is going to mean that people  will now have to add to numbers on public transport. My partner will be at risk just by having to use the underground.
> 
> ...


Maybe buy her a bike?


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

cantsin said:


> my mate who teaches up here is doing exactly the same as you, and agrees they're doing good stuff online - but he estimates he's ' lost ' 30 % of his classes -  not logging on at all,  or messing about doing stuff when logged on etc - most of then from disadvantaged backgrounds, but many of them kids he can engage with and get motivated IRL,  + just can't in virtual world.
> 
> He's also a union bod / lefty, and thinks going back in June is a dangerous farce, and that there's going to be v little take up / no one coming in, and will disintegrate



Where I work, kids travel up to 50km to get to school.
They travel by minibuses. There's no way to manage social distancing on a minibus.
I think I was lucky in that I got my classes parents onboard with online


nagapie said:


> We are finding it very bad for our SEN students who have very weak litetacy and poor IT skills.



Have you tried seesaw with them? Some of our weakest kids are loving it.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Let’s be honest, schools staying closed is an absolute disaster for many working class kids. From the basic level of eating (my kids school provides both breakfast for all and lunch to a good number, unbelievable really that parents can’t feed their own kids), through to providing safe childcare and monitoring of social issues (schools providing Tier 1 and 2 mental healthcare, acting as contact between home and children’s social care, representing at CIN panels etc), through to actual education (and lack of space to study at home, lack of computer, lack of middle class parents working from home and supervising).
> 
> Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.


This is the latest angle taken by tory politicians who've spent the last 10 years voting to cut youth services and social safety net provisions for these exact children. 

It is true that the most disadvantaged (Disadvantaged by whom? By what?) will be most badly affected by school closures - the schools are actually still open for those deemed 'at risk' - I wonder how many of them are actually attending? And if / when the schools reopen in June on an essentially voluntary basis, how many of the truly disadvantaged kids, the ones who will really benefit from being in school, will return?


----------



## spanglechick (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Have to say...you're out of touch.
> Online teaching is very effective.  And drama is very workable.


As a Drama teacher: it really isn’t.  We can keep the young ones busy, but learning and applying concepts like cross-cutting, marking the moment and other essential techniques is nigh impossible.  Negotiating with a team, using physical theatre techniques, stage combat etc are entirely impossible.
And older kids should be rehearsing scenes, developing performances of role and relationship to other characters.  Building that physical trust... they can’t do that over zoom, even if our borough hadn’t banned video conferencing, and the kids had privacy and technology at home in the first place.  
I also teach film studies, and that’s just about manageable... but it’s not as good as in class. It kills discussion, and discussion is critical for students to challenge and refine their responses.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> This is the latest angle taken by tory politicians who've spent the last 10 years voting to cut youth services and social safety net provisions for these exact children.
> 
> It is true that the most disadvantaged (Disadvantaged by whom? By what?) will be most badly affected by school closures - the schools are actually still open for those deemed 'at risk' - I wonder how many of them are actually attending? And if / when the schools reopen in June on an essentially voluntary basis, how many of the truly disadvantaged kids, the ones who will really benefit from being in school, will return?


I can answer that, to a limited extent. My 15yo can go to his school as a keyworker kid, and his school has a really high level of kids on CIN/child protection plans, SEN kids, and keyworker kids. Guess how many went in over the whole of last week? 2.

The kids are queuing up for food but they’re not stopping for school. Tbf tho they’re not actually being taught whilst there anyway, it’s just a room with computers and the sports halls open. As you and me both know tho, the kids that most need the structure of school will be the last to voluntarily go


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Something that I notice has not been mentioned in this thread is that the government took away support from the most vulnerable students in May. Children with an Education Health Care Plan, technically the most in need, have lost their statutory rights to support. And so unsurprisingly these children are being prevented from returning to schools as parents are being told they will not have their usual 1:1 support. At best this will look like neglect, at worst it is dangerous for many of these children, thereby excluding them from school. 
Going back to schools is not about protecting the most vulnerable children and it's disgusting that the government is saying this when they have only just suspended this support. 
In fact where it comes to food, schools have stepped up and done their best to provide food for any students that need it.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I can answer that, to a limited extent. My 15yo can go to his school as a keyworker kid, and his school has a really high level of kids on CIN/child protection plans, SEN kids, and keyworker kids. Guess how many went in over the whole of last week? 2.
> 
> The kids are queuing up for food but they’re not stopping for school. Tbf tho they’re not actually being taught whilst there anyway, it’s just a room with computers and the sports halls open. As you and me both know tho, the kids that most need the structure of school will be the last to voluntarily go


exactly - which kind of blows a hole in the argument that reopening now will be to help those kids - the ones who most need to be there won't go until it's compulsory.


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Where I work, kids travel up to 50km to get to school.
> They travel by minibuses. There's no way to manage social distancing on a minibus.
> I think I was lucky in that I got my classes parents onboard with online
> 
> ...


No, my son's school are using it but just to put up work and get feedback. Is there another use for it? Also once again it is an IT platform, my kids are struggling with the basics on Google Classroom. Those that have computers, but that's another issue.


----------



## IC3D (May 18, 2020)

I can see that it is difficult to get kids to go to school when their classmates aren't, impossible lol. It's a missed opurtunity given the teacher pupil ratios atm. My kids preschool is packed with keyworker kids. Though at 3 she has fuck all choice but to go and in fact loves going


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> very sorry to hear that ((((Gramsci))))



The only reason I mentioned it is that those on the Right think the "Left" live in ivory towers dreaming up pie in the sky schemes to change the world.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Let’s be honest, schools staying closed is an absolute disaster for many working class kids. From the basic level of eating (my kids school provides both breakfast for all and lunch to a good number, unbelievable really that parents can’t feed their own kids), through to providing safe childcare and monitoring of social issues (schools providing Tier 1 and 2 mental healthcare, acting as contact between home and children’s social care, representing at CIN panels etc), through to actual education (and lack of space to study at home, lack of computer, lack of middle class parents working from home and supervising).
> 
> Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.



This government has slashed funding for the most vulnerable children, so we know that's not the real motive to open schools. But, even if it's true that the poorest kids are most likely to be disadvantaged by schools being closed, we should bear in mind that: first, they're also the most likely to be disadvantaged by a second spike; and, secondly, the impact on them of school closures could be mitigated if the government chose to do so. But it won't, because it doesn't really care about working class kids (beyond them being a resource to exploit).


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Let’s be honest, schools staying closed is an absolute disaster for many working class kids. From the basic level of eating (my kids school provides both breakfast for all and lunch to a good number, unbelievable really that parents can’t feed their own kids), through to providing safe childcare and monitoring of social issues (schools providing Tier 1 and 2 mental healthcare, acting as contact between home and children’s social care, representing at CIN panels etc), through to actual education (and lack of space to study at home, lack of computer, lack of middle class parents working from home and supervising).
> 
> Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.



Why do you refer to  Montessori  education as "hippy"?


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am intrigued by your thinking that Drama is very workable online.
> Now it may be that we have differing ideas as to what educational drama is, but you say with impressive confidence that Drama (educational drama?) is very workable, and I wonder if you could please expand on that and describe how.
> It may be that what you know could apply to all practical and interactive areas of schooling.




I teach every subject. Our curriculum is an integrated one. To be honest...I have used online video conferencing for drama. We have had dress up days...role play...pretend you are a weather forecast person...pretend you are the newsreader.
Obviously I am not talking about putting on a performance of a play.
What I have managed has been successful.  
I will leave it at that as I feel that sharing here was a mistake. 
My experience of online teaching has been a good one. My students have found it good too. I have enjoyed being in a safe working environment as opposed to an occasionally hostile one. 
I'll leave it there.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Big Bertha said:


> Maybe buy her a bike?



Thanks for that helpful suggestion. It woudl have never crossed my mind if you hadn't suggested it.

For reasons Im not going to go into her my partner can't ride bikes.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think the time has more than come where every child has a school provided laptop.



I'm in Ireland. 
We dont have a laptop for every child in the school.
We have selections of different devices. Tablets, kindles, ipads, laptops. 
And these are not sent home. This may change
 Not all devices were bought with DES money. Many were bought by the school. 

There will hopefully be a move to provide children who have no devices with a tablet.


----------



## Spandex (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The main reason I wished I could have has online learning and not gone too school is precisely what you say schools are for. The are institutions to socialise people into society Coming from a background that meant I was a square peg where school tried to push me into a round hole it was horrible.


It wasn't the top down, formal socialisation function of schools I was thinking of. It was the more informal social learning that happens st school: reception and year 1 kids learning to share nicely and not scream at or hit each other; older infant kids learning how to give and take in relationships and how the world doesn't revlove around them; juniors honing their friendship skills and learning there are people you do like and people you don't and how to deal with that; going to senior school with less supervision and learning to cope with the dog eat dog world of other people; teenagers practicing being grown up and exploring their individuality and discovering boys and girls in a sexual context. If kids spend most of their time at home doing online learning they won't get the same opportunity to do all that learning in an environment that should have safeguards in place and pastoral support around where needed.


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I did go to school in 60s and 70s before Comprehensives and new forms of teaching. So got a dose of old school education. Which colours what I think of schools
> 
> My partner is doing Montessori teacher training. And Ive talked to a few teachers and the way schilldren are treated is some schools has changed a lot. So my views on education / teachers have mellowed..
> 
> ...


This is a whole different issue really.
Schools are not like the 70s. The majority of teachers really care about their students and go above and beyond to help them. On that side of things schools are a very holistic, supportive places.
But underpinning that is an ethos that cares only about exam factories and conformity and actively bullies children to tow the line. The curriculum is becoming narrower and narrower with only teachers off setting that by dynamic and creative teaching. Students with additional needs are often not supported enough or in the right ways.
The education system badly needs reform but it's not going to happen any time soon.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

nagapie said:


> No, my son's school are using it but just to put up work and get feedback. Is there another use for it? Also once again it is an IT platform, my kids are struggling with the basics on Google Classroom. Those that have computers, but that's another issue.



I dont know. 
I'm using google classroom and to me it seems easy and very user friendly. However I should say that for the past 16 months I have worked with my class onsite using gsuite tools so perhaps they are more familiar with how it works.
It was a simple enough transition for them into google classroom after the lockdown.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> As a Drama teacher: it really isn’t.  We can keep the young ones busy, but learning and applying concepts like cross-cutting, marking the moment and other essential techniques is nigh impossible.  Negotiating with a team, using physical theatre techniques, stage combat etc are entirely impossible.
> And older kids should be rehearsing scenes, developing performances of role and relationship to other characters.  Building that physical trust... they can’t do that over zoom, even if our borough hadn’t banned video conferencing, and the kids had privacy and technology at home in the first place.
> I also teach film studies, and that’s just about manageable... but it’s not as good as in class. It kills discussion, and discussion is critical for students to challenge and refine their responses.




I take your point. 
And its the same for many hands on subjects. 
Art for example. If they dont have the materials then the teacher is challenged to think outside the box. 
I saw this lesson given today by our art teacher. 
She based the lesson on the art work of Giusepi Arcimboldo.
The students read about him and looked at his art and their task was to create a piece in the style of Arcimboldo. 
Photograph it and return to us.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Dont disagree with any of that (except maybe the borrowing, although I my grasp of economics isn’t good enough).



Why not borrowing?


----------



## spanglechick (May 18, 2020)

maomao said:


> Group work...probably not.
> But we have had lessons with role play online. Basic enough I guess.


But “basic enough” isn’t an education.  You can’t develop expertise if you aren’t exposed to more complex work.  




Gramsci said:


> Perhaps it could be time to rethink education.
> 
> From posts here looks like some children like working from home. I take the point that some teaching ( science, drama etc ) cant all be done online.
> 
> ...


The thing about making Drama optional via theatres is that many kids will never be encouraged or facilitated to go.  And many of our best actors at school by the time they’re in the sixth form took a long time to find their feet in drama, to get past their self-consciousness.  We have an ex student who’s just been in a Wes Anderson film who only ended up in the yr 10 gcse class after being moved out of graphics because of a clash with the teacher.  


Celyn said:


> Hell, if I were still at school, I might have bribed any nearby chemist to invent a big bad plague just to let us avoid all that sort of thing.
> 
> Really, does anyone think that drama classes are the most important thing just now?



my school is a specialist performing and visual arts school.  More than 80% of our kids do at least one practical arts subject at exam level.  Part of the reason for this is that, off the back of the 2008 recession, the Creative and Media employment sector was the only sector to grow in numbers of jobs year on year.  More than 1:11 uk workers work in this sector.  It matters to kids who want to have jobs to go to.  


Celyn said:


> Well, yes.
> 
> In the context of how to sort out availability of _some_ school-based education for _some_ pupils, it might not be the most pressing need at present.


In terms of the return to school next month, this is year 10&12.  They’re almost all functionally literate and numerate at that age, and so why is it less important for students who have chosen to take a qualification in drama/dance/sport/art to do well next year, than in other subjects?


----------



## spanglechick (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I take your point.
> And its the same for many hands on subjects.
> Art for example. If they dont have the materials then the teacher is challenged to think outside the box.
> I saw this lesson given today by our art teacher.
> ...


That’s the kind of thing we can do with the little ones.  Character selfies, in role video diaries... but it’s not developing their skills as deeply as proper group work.  They will find the exam syllabus much harder to access if they aren’t refining their group skills now.  
There’s no way this is better than in-class teaching.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.



We are remembering that. We also remember that the very same people arguing this exact point at the moment pretty evident by their voting record don't give a rats behind about any of those kids. Just who do you think has been campaigning against those policies for the last decade/more? Who do you think is pushing back against forcing kids and teachers/other staff back into schools that are ill prepared to kept them safe?

I've asked about the differences between your boys' school a number of times because of this, I imagined it was a middle class comp or a variation of such by what you said they are able to offer him, i'm not a clairvoyant but it's obvious if you don't ignore what we already know about access to resources and soci-economic variables.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> But “basic enough” isn’t an education.  You can’t develop expertise if you aren’t exposed to more complex work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm working in a special needs school. Any drama we do is linked to developing real life communication skills.
So no. We probably would not have the same expectations as a dedicated Arts college.
In that sense I guess we are not "teaching drama" with a long A.

😀


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I dont know.
> I'm using google classroom and to me it seems easy and very user friendly. However I should say that for the past 16 months I have worked with my class onsite using gsuite tools so perhaps they are more familiar with how it works.
> It was a simple enough transition for them into google classroom after the lockdown.


Perhaps that is the difference. Many of my students are struggling to use it. Furthermore, it requires a functional level of literacy which many of my students don't have. There are ways to mitigate this but for teaching basic literacy, we would need months to design a program that was fully supported by visual and audio supports broken down to the level needed.


----------



## nyxx (May 18, 2020)

“unbelievable that parents can’t feed their own kids”

Proper judgemental bitch aren’t you Edie.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

As regards returning to work, 
Teachers here have been very vocal about wanting safe work places. 
Our unions, for once, are working to ensure that teachers with underlying health problems are not forced back into schools in September when schools will reopen on a phased basis. 

It also seems that only 3 or 4 children will be in a classroom on any given day and that schools wont have pupils every day. 

What has  not been discussed is how we are supposed to cope with those pupils who flout every rule in the book? Who will nore than likely not respect social distnace rules and will cause an amount of stress and problems for others. 
Will they be allowed into such a controlled setting? 
I don't think things will go as well as the government thinks.  

It's going to be a mess.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Spandex said:


> It wasn't the top down, formal socialisation function of schools I was thinking of. It was the more informal social learning that happens st school: reception and year 1 kids learning to share nicely and not scream at or hit each other; older infant kids learning how to give and take in relationships and how the world doesn't revlove around them; juniors honing their friendship skills and learning there are people you do like and people you don't and how to deal with that; going to senior school with less supervision and learning to cope with the dog eat dog world of other people; teenagers practicing being grown up and exploring their individuality and discovering boys and girls in a sexual context. If kids spend most of their time at home doing online learning they won't get the same opportunity to do all that learning in an environment that should have safeguards in place and pastoral support around where needed.



I remember years ago reading Althusser and he used the term ISA Ideological State Apparatus. I recognised that as school. The informal curriculam ( hidden curriculam) is not value free natural process. Even in the more  liberal schooling of today.

As I also said children should have more choice. My local Adventure playground provides all your saying and its not compulsory. Its in a working class area and is oversubscribed.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I remember years ago reading Althusser and he used the term ISA Ideological State Apparatus. I recognised that as school. The informal curriculam ( hidden curriculam) is not value free natural process. Even in the more  liberal schooling of today.
> 
> As I also said children should have more choice. My local Adventure playground provides all your saying and its not compulsory. Its in a working class area and is oversubscribed.



Althusser explicitly names "school" as a key ISA.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 18, 2020)

nagapie said:


> We are finding it very bad for our SEN students who have very weak litetacy and poor IT skills.


I have found it a mixed bag for my SEN students.  However those with poor digital skills or  poor access to equipment  are at a real disadvantage.
I'm doing pre-recorded video content  rather than streaming. I think streamed content would be even more difficult for students.


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> “unbelievable that parents can’t feed their own kids”
> 
> Proper judgemental bitch aren’t you Edie.


Hang on did she actually say that? I missed it if she did but either way this personal attacking Edie shit is not just way ott it’s a pointless distraction from talking about what is obviously a complicated question. Don’t resort to calling a woman you disagree with a bitch. Sort it out.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.



I'm honestly wondering whether you weigh the same as a duck!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 18, 2020)

Also BTEC just said it was going to ignore all  of the  work done after lockdown.

or at the very least  it can't be used as a negative mark towards students .


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> “unbelievable that parents can’t feed their own kids”
> 
> Proper judgemental bitch aren’t you Edie.



That was completely uncalled for. Please don't call a woman a bitch, just because you take issue with what they have said. 

Post reported (A first for me).


----------



## Big Bertha (May 18, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> 11th and 12th year students back to day in Portugal. Wearing masks are compulsory, desks are distanced.


Sounds like a plan!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 18, 2020)

Actually having a lot of content  that was available online 24/7  made it easier for some of the  students who struggle  with work  over ramadan.


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I have found it a mixed bag for my SEN students.  However those with poor digital skills or  poor access to equipment  are at a real disadvantage.
> I'm doing pre-recorded video content  rather than streaming. I think streamed content would be even more difficult for students.



I agree that video and audio can go a long way to support students who have and can access the IT. But for a lot of my students who operate at under the 5th percentile cognitively, they need so much repetition and modelling that it's just not getting through. I am finding that if I give them work they can already do then some of them are ok, but there's no extending them into the unknown. Like spanglechick  said, there's a lack of depth of learning. Despite the fact that she and I teach very different subjects, drama, games and movement based activities feature heavily in my SEN teaching.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

Back in the day (I know ) we had Primary 1 to Primary 7, then 1st year to 6th year. Why did this change? Now you have to engage in mental arithmetic to work out the age of the child.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

On the subject of laptops, introduce them in primary school, with touch typing on the curriculum. Pretty much every job now involves computer use to some degree.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 18, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I agree that video and audio can go a long way to support students who have and can access the IT. But for a lot of my students who operate at under the 5th percentile cognitively, they need so much repetition and modelling that it's just not getting through. I am finding that if I give them work they can already do then some of them are ok, but there's no extending them into the unknown. Like spanglechick  said, there's a lack of depth of learning. Despite the fact that she and I teach very different subjects, drama, games and movement based activities feature heavily in my SEN teaching.



While I do think there is  space  to  grow digitally based learning to incorporate  many of those elements  I  think that is a long  term project that would require a large investment  in  equipment/training/development time and is not  something  people are able to do for this academic year  or  realistically   be  ready for it  in september.


----------



## Sue (May 18, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Back in the day (I know ) we had Primary 1 to Primary 7, then 1st year to 6th year. Why did this change? Now you have to engage in mental arithmetic to work out the age of the child.


Think it still is in Scotland. It's never/long since not been like that in England etc.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> “unbelievable that parents can’t feed their own kids”
> 
> Proper judgemental bitch aren’t you Edie.


Calm down. I meant from the perspective of not having enough money. You get yourself well wound up in any debate doncha 

Ftr I think it’s an absolute disgrace that some kids regularly get most of their meals provided by school. When did schools take on that role?


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> While I do think there is  space  to  grow digitally based learning to incorporate  many of those elements  I  think that is a long  term project that would require a large investment  in  equipment/training/development time and is not  something  people are able to do for this academic year  or  realistically   be  ready for it  in september.


Absolutely. Online education, or any other education programs, are designed over time by teams of professionally trained people. We are merely trying to salvage what learning we can by putting up the best we can in as quickly as possible. I am using Google Classroom for the first time so definitely not doing it as well as some of my colleagues who have been using it for some time and are generally more IT savvy.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> On the subject of laptops, introduce them in primary school, with touch typing on the curriculum. Pretty much every job now involves computer use to some degree.



There's lots of IT in Primary already.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Why not borrowing?


Ach cos I read somewhere that you shouldn’t consider Government borrowing in the same light as personal debt (ie that it’s a Bad Thing). Although couldn’t tell you why I’m afraid.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> There's lots of IT in Primary already.



Aye, but a universal scheme could benefit from the economies of scale.


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2020)

I confess I like the idea of a discussion as to why as a society we send our children to school, and what we expect to happen there.
I don't have any ready made answers, but questions and opinion (hopefully backed up by something), but if this pause in previously normal life gives us anything it gives us pause for thought.
For example should children have more education about parenting? Or form filling? Or food production and preparation? Or the impact of waste or recycling? Or road skills? Or moral thinking?
And so on.
Should there be a hierarchy of priority, for example learning body awareness coming in before learning about history? What is down to parents/ home life and what is down to schools and teachers?
Or ought schools supposed to do everything all the time for all children?
There is no brilliant answer to any of this stuff, but a bit of a re-visit might be worthwhile.
If you actually enquired of the kids you may be surprised by the response.
I am mindful of the attitude of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn towards schooling.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Ach cos I read somewhere that you shouldn’t consider Government borrowing in the same light as personal debt (ie that it’s a Bad Thing). Although couldn’t tell you why I’m afraid.



The difference between government and personal debt - essentially the power to print the money to satisfy it - is exactly why the former *isn't* a problem (subject to far and effective measures to control inflation i.e. a progressive system of taxation).


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> Althusser explicitly names "school" as a key ISA.



I need to read him again.

Thanks for the info on Diane Reay book I looked her up and found this interview with her on the book. Its got a lot of info on how working class children lose out in education. I liked the fact that she looks at government reports and also researches what working class children think of the education they get.

‘Working-class children get less of everything in education - including respect’ by

Lots in that interview. Basically along with neo liberalism things have gone backwards for working class children as well. Looks like good summary of her work.

One thing struck me. Education is going back away from more liberal education to education style I remember:



> Another blow being inflicted on working class children is through the way they are treated in some super-strict schools, argues Reay. She says some academies operate on the principle that working class families are chaotic and children need school to impose control. “There’s lots of lining up in silence, standing to attention when an adult comes into the room, and mantras. I think it’s about disrespecting working class young people and their families.
> 
> “There’s one academy where the children have to say: I aspire, he aspires, she aspires, we all aspire.”



The Academy near me has that reputation.

So the idea that the Right put forward that they really care about working class children. If only risk averse teachers would just get on with it is patently bollox.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I confess I like the idea of a discussion as to why as a society we send our children to school, and what we expect to happen there.



i) Containment
ii) Socialisation
iii) Categorisation
iv) Training
v) Education (a bit, if you're lucky)


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I have found it a mixed bag for my SEN students.  However those with poor digital skills or  poor access to equipment  are at a real disadvantage.
> I'm doing pre-recorded video content  rather than streaming. I think streamed content would be even more difficult for students.




Yes. I think pre recorded material is best too.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> One thing struck me. Education is going back away from more liberal education to education style I remember:



Getting them ready for the army...


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I confess I like the idea of a discussion as to why as a society we send our children to school, and what we expect to happen there.
> I don't have any ready made answers, but questions and opinion (hopefully backed up by something), but if this pause in previously normal life gives us anything it gives us pause for thought.
> For example should children have more education about parenting? Or form filling? Or food production and preparation? Or the impact of waste or recycling? Or road skills? Or moral thinking?
> And so on.
> ...




In our constitution (Ireland) it is written that the Parents are the primary educators of their children. 

The *Irish Constitution* states that *parents* have *primary* responsibility for educating their child. It guarantees the *parents*' right and duty to provide for their children's *education*. ... *Parents* are also entitled to provide *education* outside the school system if they want.

So that's pretty clear. 


After and beyond that the state has decided on set curricula. 

For a while in recent years, an onlooker might have thought that technology and pharmaceuticals were just about dictating subject choices for students. In actuality schools and parents were looking  towards where jobs were and students were steered in the direction of studying certain subjects that would be more useful in these jobs. 
Nothing entirely new in that though.  I mean, if you want to study medicine, you'll have a better university outcome and experience if you have studied science, biology and perhaps chemistry at second level. 
So the job market does impact somewhat on what schools offer. And on what parents and students want as regards subject choices. 

In a society that seems to be rapidly changing perhaps the biggest learning / teaching challenge is to be able to adapt ... fast.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I need to read him again.
> 
> Thanks for the info on Diane Reay book I looked her up and found this interview with her on the book. Its got a lot of info on how working class children lose out in education. I liked the fact that she looks at government reports and also researches what working class children think of the education they get.
> 
> ...




Reay has written a LOT on this subject. I don't agree with her on everything but she is probably the leading authority on it (for me at least). A few others worth seeking out: Stephen J Ball, Christy Kulz, Beverly Skeggs...and Bourdieu obviously.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> “unbelievable that parents can’t feed their own kids”
> 
> Proper judgemental bitch aren’t you Edie.



You've misunderstood and should apologise asap.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Ach cos I read somewhere that you shouldn’t consider Government borrowing in the same light as personal debt (ie that it’s a Bad Thing). Although couldn’t tell you why I’m afraid.



Where did you read this and why did you believe it to be true if you can't say why? Surely it was the reason 'why' given that convinced you mate?


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> In a society that seems to be rapidly changing perhaps the biggest learning / teaching challenge is to be able to adapt ... fast.



Beyond a certain speed of change it's anyone's guess as to what will be considered important when the little buggers grow up.
There are certain things that are likely to be important regardless, but they would not take up all of the time that the kids are warehoused for.

We need to consider certain challenges that we know are on the horizon, though.  
I think we'd be fairly well served with:

Reading, writing, numeracy.
Computer skills and a little theory.
Foraging skills and field butchery.
Hand to hand combat.
Basic and broad level of weapons training.
Basic electrical and explosives training.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> That was completely uncalled for. Please don't call a woman a bitch, just because you take issue with what they have said.
> 
> Post reported (A first for me).


always good to see a man policing women's language


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> Beyond a certain speed of change it's anyone's guess as to what will be considered important when the little buggers grow up.
> There are certain things that are likely to be important regardless, but they would not take up all of the time that the kids are warehoused for.
> 
> We need to consider certain challenges that we know are on the horizon, though.
> ...




I would add cooking skills and gardening.

Eta. Mine are loving text to speech and the fact they can also say what they want and their gadgets will type it out for them to send it to me. 
I do agree that technology needs to be part of every lesson.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> Beyond a certain speed of change it's anyone's guess as to what will be considered important when the little buggers grow up.
> There are certain things that are likely to be important regardless, but they would not take up all of the time that the kids are warehoused for.
> 
> We need to consider certain challenges that we know are on the horizon, though.
> ...


to the digital literacy you've mentioned i'd add information literacy


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I would add cooking skills and gardening.



I think the former would be very useful.  We had gardens in school when I was a kid so can't argue against the other, really, just not a gardener myself.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> to the digital literacy you've mentioned i'd add information literacy



With a bit of critical thinking on the side.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> I think the former would be very useful.  We had gardens in school when I was a kid so can't argue against the other, really, just not a gardener myself.



I'm on a steep learning curve as regards gardening for myself. But I think that people may well need to know how to grow their own vegetables in years to come.


----------



## nyxx (May 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> Hang on did she actually say that? I missed it if she did but either way this personal attacking Edie shit is not just way ott it’s a pointless distraction from talking about what is obviously a complicated question. Don’t resort to calling a woman you disagree with a bitch. Sort it out.



Yes that’s what she said.
Couldn’t do the copy paste edit.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I'm on a steep learning curve as regards gardening for myself. But I think that people may well need to know how to grow their own vegetables in years to come.



I think just that element of knowing where food comes from is useful for some kids, especially in areas where they aren't likely to be exposed to it in other areas of their life.


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> In our constitution (Ireland) it is written that the Parents are the primary educators of their children.
> 
> The *Irish Constitution* states that *parents* have *primary* responsibility for educating their child. It guarantees the *parents*' right and duty to provide for their children's *education*. ... *Parents* are also entitled to provide *education* outside the school system if they want.
> 
> ...




From the second part of what you write it sounds like schooling is supposed to be utilitarian.
Is there a place for schooling/learning/education being worthwhile for it's own sake more than for the benefit of society or the jobs market?


----------



## nyxx (May 18, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> You've misunderstood and should apologise asap.



I’ll read what details I missed with interest sure.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Let’s be honest, schools staying closed is an absolute disaster for many working class kids. From the basic level of eating (my kids school provides both breakfast for all and lunch to a good number, unbelievable really that parents can’t feed their own kids), through to providing safe childcare and monitoring of social issues (schools providing Tier 1 and 2 mental healthcare, acting as contact between home and children’s social care, representing at CIN panels etc), through to actual education (and lack of space to study at home, lack of computer, lack of middle class parents working from home and supervising).
> 
> Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.


underlined and quoted for you here nyxx


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> From the second part of what you write it sounds like schooling is supposed to be utilitarian.
> Is there a place for schooling/learning/education being worthwhile for it's own sake more than for the benefit of society or the jobs market?




Of course there is. It's one of the reasons I chose to work in a special ed setting. There's value to all learning. 

I was not saying that what has happened in third level and how pressure is put on students to pursue certain subject choices, was right!!
I was just pointing out the way universities and business have had strong influence.


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> I think just that element of knowing where food comes from is useful for some kids, especially in areas where they aren't likely to be exposed to it in other areas of their life.


 A sixth former once told me that Anchovies grew on trees and were simply a pizza topping.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Calm down. I meant from the perspective of not having enough money. You get yourself well wound up in any debate doncha
> 
> Ftr I think it’s an absolute disgrace that some kids regularly get most of their meals provided by school. When did schools take on that role?



The last decade would be a good place to start. It's important to understand why there is a need though isn't there?

I feel like we are reading two different threads tbh Edie anytime we get anywhere near the reasons why these inequalities exist you don't seem to comment. It's almost like you are not making the connections between things which is odd because you are clearly intelligent. These are difficult conversations to have but we can't have them in any meaningful way if we simply push away the contextual bits because they don't make us feel comfortable.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> A sixth former once told me that Anchovies grew on trees and were simply a pizza topping.



I told my nephews that croissants were closely related to trilobites and originated in deep mines in France; the market being largely a by-product of archaeologists searching for dinosaur bones.

Maybe something similar happened with your 6th former and anchovies.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 18, 2020)

Just heard local academy group is telling parents who don’t want kids to go back before September because there is a vulnerable person in the household that they will not get any work sent home or teacher support.  Of a piece with the employers now bullying vulnerable people back to work by using very narrow definition of vulnerable. 
We will remember....😡


----------



## eatmorecheese (May 18, 2020)

philosophical said:


> A sixth former once told me that Anchovies grew on trees and were simply a pizza topping.



Maybe confused with capers?


----------



## LDC (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> Beyond a certain speed of change it's anyone's guess as to what will be considered important when the little buggers grow up.
> There are certain things that are likely to be important regardless, but they would not take up all of the time that the kids are warehoused for.
> 
> We need to consider certain challenges that we know are on the horizon, though.
> ...



Add in some critical thinking and general history and I'd vote for you to be education/schools minister.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Just heard local academy group is telling parents who don’t want kids to go back before September because there is a vulnerable person in the household that they will not get any work sent home or teacher support.  Of a piece with the employers now bullying vulnerable people back to work by using very narrow definition of vulnerable.
> We will remember....😡


My kids school has said the same, to protect teachers’ workloads - the Year 1 teachers can’t be in school teaching children and producing home learning resources at the same time.
Guidance says schools should be signposting parents to BBC Bitesize and Oak Academy rather than expecting teachers to teach both children in school and at home.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> My kids school has said the same, to protect teachers’ workloads - the Year 1 teachers can’t be in school teaching children and producing home learning resources at the same time.
> Guidance says schools should be signposting parents to BBC Bitesize and Oak Academy rather than expecting teachers to teach both children in school and at home.


Basically another example of there not being the capacity both to follow govt diktats and protect the vulnerable.  (See also, last x number of years of govt policy....)


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

Celyn said:


> Really, does anyone think that drama classes are the most important thing just now?



My daughter's drama teacher thought it was important enough that he sent a message during the _first week_ to say that she should remember all work would contribute to their final grade so if it wasn't handed in, they would get an automatic fail. I don't complain about teachers very often but I was fucking fuming - piling on the pressure instead of offering any support - so I did complain (and apparently I wasn't the only one), while I also made it clear that I understood they are also working under pressure, and he subsequently retracted it (and now appears to have given up on marking/engaging altogether  ).

She'd been just about managing up until two weeks ago but finally had a bit of a meltdown on Friday - saying she's at her desk for six hours but only being productive for maybe 1.5 of those. She was stressing cos she'd started to get work mounting up, so I told her to send in everything she'd done up until that point, whether it was completed or not, and from today we're trying for three hours instead. She's still worrying (!) but was defo more able to focus for the shorter amount of time (that being the problem - just completely losing the ability to concentrate).
Things like maths, where she really needs the confidence her amazing teacher gives her, are just a complete non-starter (she can't make any sense of the various online videos etc).

It'll work better for some and not at all for others, which obviously means there's going to be a really difficult job to come for teachers later in bridging the massive gap  but I can only think at this point that there'll have to be some adjustments made for exams next year for eg (she's year 10 and I can't really see how the earlier suggestions floated for some students repeating a year would work either - there's not enough room in schools as it is to socially distance, let alone with whole additional year groups added). Either way, I am absolutely opposed to schools reopening before it's completely safe to do so (I know our LA is onside with that anyway) - and every day just firms that up more (today we apparently _don't need_ track and trace in place?! Get fucked!) so in the meantime it's really just a case of finding ways through the days that create the least amount of stress and that means for now I've effectively told her to pick what she thinks she can tackle best and forget about the rest.

The school I work in has canvassed year 10 parents and have so far had a response back which is roughly 50/50 between 'yes' and 'maybe' (I'm assuming for a return on June 1st and that 'maybe's were 'no' but with objections set out - it wasn't very clear!) - the 'maybe's almost all being about social distancing, so they're looking to focus on that while they try to progress towards a phased return - but it won't be on June 1st.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> I’ll read what details I missed with interest sure.



You've missed the fact that she was referring to the surprise that such levels of poverty persist in an affluent society.  It was an implicit criticism of ther system, but you've misinterpreted it as a criticism of the parents. You should apologise.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 18, 2020)

Just to point out that one of the oft-repeated falsehoods perpetuated by the Tories in the early stages of austerity measures was that government spending could be equated with household spending


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> You've missed the fact that she was referring to the surprise that such levels of poverty persist in an affluent society.  It was an implicit criticism of ther system, but you've misinterpreted it as a criticism of the parents. You should apologise.



I can see how it could be misread by someone who had not read many of Edie's posts ever.
Maybe rather than getting dug in we could put it down to an honest misreading - I think it's really down to Edie whether apologies should be demanded.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> she's at her desk for six hours but only being productive for maybe 1.5 of those.


This sounds normal - she's perfectly set up for the world of work.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> This sounds normal - she's perfectly set up for the world of work.



Seeing as this doesn't even involve Urban, I think this shows a remarkable level of talent.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> I can see how it could be misread by someone who had not read many of Edie's posts ever.
> Maybe rather than getting dug in we could put it down to an honest misreading - I think it's really down to Edie whether apologies should be demanded.


Since when has it been only down to the person being insulted to object to it around here?


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 18, 2020)

Returning with some apologies to the thread topic, but reading between the lines of the meeting I was in this morning, I doubt my college will be reopened on June 1st, and  there has been mention of the theory side of practical subjects being online until at least Christmas.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

I’m not an apology expecting person, it’s absolutely irrelevant to me what nyxx feels (no disrespect, only in this context, sure you’re great laugh to have a pint with  ).

It’s been pointed out to me that school dinners are provided by the LA, whereas the breakfasts are part of a partnership with business, so it’s not ‘the school’ paying for these just facilitating. I’m still not sure it’s a great idea for kids to be heavily reliant on school for meals, as this pandemic (and every holiday) shows.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m not an apology expecting person, it’s absolutely irrelevant to me what nyxx feels (no disrespect, only in this context, sure you’re great laugh to have a pint with  ).
> 
> It’s been pointed out to me that school dinners are provided by the LA, whereas the breakfasts are part of a partnership with business, so it’s not ‘the school’ paying for these just facilitating. I’m still not sure it’s a great idea for kids to be heavily reliant on school for meals, as this pandemic (and every holiday) shows.



Aye. I'm sure most teachers can tell you stories of kids arriving at school hungry cos there's no food at home.

If the murdering public school bastards that comprise the government cared they'd do something about this. 

But, no, they caused it. Knowingly.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m not an apology expecting person, it’s absolutely irrelevant to me what nyxx feels (no disrespect, only in this context, sure you’re great laugh to have a pint with  ).
> 
> It’s been pointed out to me that school dinners are provided by the LA, whereas the breakfasts are part of a partnership with business, so it’s not ‘the school’ paying for these just facilitating. I’m still not sure it’s a great idea for kids to be heavily reliant on school for meals, as this pandemic (and every holiday) shows.



That this is a thing is a fucking disgraceful stain on our country.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> You've missed the fact that she was referring to the surprise that such levels of poverty persist in an affluent society.  It was an implicit criticism of ther system, but you've misinterpreted it as a criticism of the parents. You should apologise.



The poster was pulled up for using sexist language. For which the poster should apologize for. Not this.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Since when has it been only down to the person being insulted to object to it around here?



See if you can spot what I didn't say.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Let’s be honest, schools staying closed is an absolute disaster for many working class kids. From the basic level of eating (my kids school provides both breakfast for all and lunch to a good number, unbelievable really that parents can’t feed their own kids), through to providing safe childcare and monitoring of social issues (schools providing Tier 1 and 2 mental healthcare, acting as contact between home and children’s social care, representing at CIN panels etc), through to actual education (and lack of space to study at home, lack of computer, lack of middle class parents working from home and supervising).
> 
> Kids going to middle class comps (like my eldest), or private schools like these middle class hippy Montessori ones, will be massively advantaged. When we argue about when schools should go back we should remember that.



So why do you refer to Montessori education as "hippy"?


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The poster was pulled up for using sexist language. For which the poster should apologize for. Not this.



He should apologise for both, in my opinion.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

clicker said:


> Pre covid, schools were routinely sending out 'there is a suspected chicken pox case/ nits are rife' messages to parents and carers. Come September, schools ordinarily see an increase in 'normal'  coughs etc , just due to so many kids mingling .
> 
> I understand it's been suggested temperatures will be taken as each child comes to school. If, as is bound to happen in a 'normal ' September, a kid presents with a raised temperature, what happens next?
> 
> In an ideal world the child can be tested for covid. How long will be the wait for the results? 2 days? What will the school do in the meantime? Do they message parents and carers? Immediately shut the school? Do nothing and hope?



I know from communication with my local union union branch that, even prior to the June 1st opening stuff, the unions were having a fight because the gov suggestion at that point was that schools would not be allowed to share - with either staff or parents - if there was a _confirmed case_ of covid in schools, once they reopened. Insane! 
This was on the basis that schools no longer share when there are cases of (the examples given...) measles _and nits_ and that they haven't done for (iirc) over ten years.
Absolutely untrue and it was retracted (the unions won) but just to provide even more context to how seriously they were/are taking the safety of staff and children (and therefore, families and the wider community, too).

ETA For clarity, I _think_ the suggestion now is that the group of cohorts/immediate staff that child had been with would have to self-isolate (and be tested?). Not temp taking on entry, though.



isvicthere? said:


> Here in Spain, where there has been a properly enforced real lockdown, which started significantly before Britain's, schools aren't going back until at least September.



And Italy, too.



SpackleFrog said:


> Schools should re-open at some point and it should be when teachers and parents decide.
> 
> We've got the NEU saying they'll tell members to refuse to work under section 44. We've got 3 Labour councils (Liverpool, Rochdale, Hartlepool) refusing to re-open schools with possibly more to follow. And at some point I hope we'll see organised groups of parents going beyond simply not wanting to send their kids back their to organising mass stay aways.
> 
> 1st June could be a very interesting date, I actually agree with Sasaferrato that the govt might decide this date isn't practical, but that assumes this lot know when to tactically retreat.



My LA seems to have taken the same decision - but more quietly  - so I'm guessing that must be going on elsewhere, too.



ska invita said:


> The government will do what they've done up to now, nudge, fudge, eat cake and have it... Get as many people back to school as possible without making it mandatory in any way you they can be responsible. Teachers and parents choice makes them culpable when the inevitable outbreak happens. 1st June will stand I expect



I read this, from the Downing St lobby briefing earlier -


*A decision is likely this week as to whether the government will go ahead with plans for some primary school pupils in England to start going back on 1 June (a fortnight today), the spokesman signalled.* The UK government’s coronavirus recovery plan said Reception, Year 1 and Year 6 pupils would go back “no earlier than Monday 1 June”. The spokesman confirmed that this was still the position, but he accepted that 1 June (the Monday after half term, for many pupils) remained an ambition. Asked when the government would be able to say if this would be the date, he replied:



> You can see from the discussions that have taken place ... that we are working to seek to resolve this as soon as we can.


When it was put to him that in practice this meant a decision this week, because next week is half term, the spokesman did not challenge this assumption. He said that the safety of pupils came first, but that the government was also aware of the damage being done to children from their not being in education.


*The spokesman said the government would publish its scientific advice about the safety of children being in school “as soon as possible”.* On Friday the government published an overview on this topic (pdf), he said. But the teaching unions want to see the full scientific advice. Asked when they would get it, the spokesman said:



> The Sage [Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies] papers are being published in batches, and the DfE papers will be published as soon as possible.


- which made me wonder a bit whether they may backtrack (so many failed 'ambitions' so far). I really can't see how what looks to be a delay with track and trace etc is going to reassure people either, however much they're now claiming it's _all fiiiiine_, even without it in place (WTF?!).



Thora said:


> My kids school has said the same, to protect teachers’ workloads - the Year 1 teachers can’t be in school teaching children and producing home learning resources at the same time.
> Guidance says schools should be signposting parents to BBC Bitesize and Oak Academy rather than expecting teachers to teach both children in school and at home.



Yes, teachers defo can't be expected to do both, although there will probably be lots of teaching staff who'll have to continue wfh anyway, due to their own circumstances (but obvs that'll vary/is not a given).


----------



## Big Bertha (May 18, 2020)

Oh it just is isn’t it...









						Montessori Hippies 🇮🇪 (@montessorihippies) • Instagram photos and videos
					

1,372 Followers, 1,441 Following, 180 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Montessori Hippies 🇮🇪 (@montessorihippies)




					www.instagram.com


----------



## frogwoman (May 18, 2020)

I follow some swedish people on twitter and there's significant anger in sweden because schools are being told not to tell parents when there is a case of covid in the school (when nits and chicken pox are being reported to parents). also, parents in vulnerable groups face fines for not sending children to school.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> He should apologise for both, in my opinion.



Going to have to disagree on that.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 18, 2020)

..."the government was also aware of the damage being done to children from their not being in education."

They are, it's school they're not in.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Big Bertha said:


> Oh it just is isn’t it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see your back posting your usual wind up posts.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> He should apologise for both, in my opinion.


nyxx is a woman (fyi)


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Montessori is more aspirational middle class, it’s Steiner that’s mad hippy.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Big Bertha said:


> Oh it just is isn’t it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe it pre-dates hippies by 65 years or so.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> nyxx is a woman (fyi)



Thanks. The person quoted referred to them as 'he's so I assumed that was the case.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So why do you refer to Montessori education as "hippy"?


Listen I don’t know much about private schools, but in my head this private school is associated with hippy type woodcraft middle class people. Is there also some dodgy connection to fascism? Slightly surprised you endorse private education but there you go. I’m always torn on the issue.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Listen I don’t know much about private schools, but in my head this private school is associated with hippy type woodcraft middle class people. Is there also some dodgy connection to fascism? Slightly surprised you endorse private education but there you go. I’m always torn on the issue.


I'm torn, too. Whether to just abolish it or raze every one to the fucking ground.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Listen I don’t know much about private schools, but in my head this private school is associated with hippy type woodcraft middle class people. Is there also some dodgy connection to fascism? Slightly surprised you endorse private education but there you go. I’m always torn on the issue.



Im not endorsing private education. Where did I say I endorse private schools?

I just asked you why you refer to Montessori education as hippy. And you come back saying I endorse private education which I haven't.

Montessori is a form of education. It does not have to be practised in private schools.

So you dont actually know much about it.


----------



## nyxx (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Thanks. The person quoted referred to them as 'he's so I assumed that was the case.



Gramsci refereed to “the poster”, no gender signifier included. Seems like “he” was your invention.


----------



## trashpony (May 18, 2020)

The state of this thread  

Have you got any examples of UK state Montessori schools Gramsci? Because I don't think there are any (ETA - there are 4). So Edie might have confused Steiner with Montessori but generally they're private which means generally the kids that attend them are middle class.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

trashpony said:


> The state of this thread
> 
> Have you got any examples of UK state Montessori schools Gramsci? Because I don't think there are any (ETA - there are 4). So Edie might have confused Steiner with Montessori but generally they're private which means generally the kids that attend them are middle class.



I asked about reference to using the term hippy in relation to montessori.

Edie got back saying I endorse private schools.

Its reading into my original post something I didnt say.

Im not asking for an apology or anything.

Montessori came up as I mentioned my partner was training to be a montessori teacher. in a post.  Which Edie  must have seen.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Anyway,  if you Google "hippy school", the first link you get is Edinburgh Steiner School.
So I have Thora ahead on points.


----------



## trashpony (May 18, 2020)

It's just the fucking nitpicking and point scoring. It's so fucking tedious. Perhaps it's more interesting if you're involved in it but it makes a thread which should be quite interesting very dull to read.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

trashpony said:


> It's just the fucking nitpicking and point scoring. It's so fucking tedious. Perhaps it's more interesting if you're involved in it but it makes a thread which should be quite interesting very dull to read.



Well, you've joined in now, so maybe it will pick up a bit for you.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> Gramsci refereed to “the poster”, no gender signifier included. Seems like “he” was your invention.



You're right, though I could've sworn I read 'he'. Either way, I'm happy to apologise for getting your gender wrong. Will you apologise for calling Edie a bitch (a misogynistic slur) based on you misunderstanding what she said?


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

What would a politics thread be without nitpicking, point scoring, accusations and demands for apologies?

Has anyone mentioned straw men or nazis yet?


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> You're right, though I could've sworn I read 'he'. Either way, I'm happy to apologise for getting your gender wrong. Will you apologise for calling Edie a bitch (a misogynistic slur) based on you misunderstanding what she said?



Or at least downgrade it to "cunt".


----------



## xenon (May 18, 2020)

Anyone listen to the PC this afternoon and here Prof Van-Tam state it's believed the R rate between children is about the same as for adults. (Allbeit great majority infected experience very mild to no symptoms.) 
I was trying (badly) to multitask and missed if anyone followed up with the obvious question. i.e.
Given the above, how the fuck by 1st of June can it be safer for children to go back to school ,than for any other separate household groups to congregate. If the R rate is about the same, children can clearly transmit the virus to each other and adults.


Course they have to go back at some point but given the R rate as it is today, 2 weeks seems riskily early.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> Has anyone mentioned straw men or nazis yet?



Straw men: yes.
Nazis: just you so far.  And now me too.


----------



## nyxx (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> You're right, though I could've sworn I read 'he'. Either way, I'm happy to apologise for getting your gender wrong. Will you apologise for calling Edie a bitch (a misogynistic slur) based on you misunderstanding what she said?



Edie doesn’t seem arsed about it so I don’t know what the need for it would be tbh.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

nyxx said:


> Edie doesn’t seem arsed about it so I don’t know what the need for it would be tbh.



Stay classy.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Im not endorsing private education. Where did I say I endorse private schools?
> 
> I just asked you why you refer to Montessori education as hippy. And you come back saying I endorse private education which I haven't.
> 
> ...


I guess your partner working at a fee paying school isn’t necessarily an endorsement of private education, just as having a relationship with a manufacturing boss isn’t an endorsement of capitalism eh


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> Montessori is more aspirational middle class, it’s Steiner that’s mad hippy.


Or would be if it didn't predate hippies by more than forty years


----------



## xenon (May 18, 2020)




----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I'm torn, too. Whether to just abolish it or raze every one to the fucking ground.



Expropriation or annihilation?

Hmmm. There's a "people's vote " I could endorse.

On a serious note.

Anybody claiming to "care about disadvantaged children's education" cannot defend the principle of private education.

The murdering public school bastards didn't get where they are today, with the views that they hold, by accident.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Stay classy.


Always good to see a man policing a woman's language, something you and Sasaferrato have in common


----------



## andysays (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I guess your partner working at a fee paying school isn’t necessarily an endorsement of private education, just as having a relationship with a manufacturing boss isn’t an endorsement of capitalism eh


Yeah, because working in a school is *exactly* equivalent to owning factories in China, the Philippines and elsewhere. 

But it's actually your posts which are a ringing endorsement of capitalism, as is your complete failure to recognise that the reason school kids have to be fed at school because their parents can't afford to feed them at home has the same ultimate cause as why there are so few apprenticeships or decent jobs for young people in Britain.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Always good to see a man policing a woman's language, something you and Sasaferrato have in common



Fatuous point as ever. Presumably you wouldn't challenge, say, Jayda Fransen using the n word?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I guess your partner working at a fee paying school isn’t necessarily an endorsement of private education, just as having a relationship with a manufacturing boss isn’t an endorsement of capitalism eh


Don't really want to get into picking through people's private lives but there is no comparison between a worker who is forced to sell their labour to a private business and a boss that owns capital and exploits workers.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I guess your partner working at a fee paying school isn’t necessarily an endorsement of private education, just as having a relationship with a manufacturing boss isn’t an endorsement of capitalism eh



BB2’s new school in September, the head is very anti private education. His wife is head teacher at a prep school. They have had rows apparently...


----------



## krink (May 18, 2020)

having just read this entire thread I'm puzzled why some people pushing for schools to reopen are going on about terrible damage being done to a generation of kids by not getting an education - you'd think the schools are going to be shut FOREVER!  

If they wait until september my kids in senior school will have missed a total of 13 school weeks. they've done work at home every day, even a few days during what would have been easter holidays. yes, it's not great but waiting until september is not the end of the world compared to...i dunno...their nan or their teacher dying due to a second wave. 

it has nothing to do with education and everything to do with the bosses needing their cash flowing again.


----------



## trashpony (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Don't really want to get into picking through people's private lives but there is no comparison between a worker who is forced to sell their labour to a private business and a boss that owns capital and exploits workers.


 "I was forced to become a montessori teacher"

This thread is proper oldskool u75


----------



## krink (May 18, 2020)

oh and just an aside, can certain posters refrain from equating working from home to being middle class? i have been made to work from home at the moment and i qualify for benefits my pay is so low. there's shit loads of low paid people who can work from home.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2020)

trashpony said:


> "I was forced to become a montessori teacher"
> 
> This thread is proper oldskool u75


What with some analysis of class?
Yes people are forced to take jobs that aren't perfect, to work for employers they oppose, that can mean having to work for an academy, free or perhaps even private school; you might have to get a job in private healthcare rather than work for the NHS; you may have to work for a nuclear power company or an arms company.

And yes there is *no comparison* between those workers and the bosses that are stealing from them


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

xenon said:


> Anyone listen to the PC this afternoon and here Prof Van-Tam state it's believed the R rate between children is about the same as for adults. (Allbeit great majority infected experience very mild to no symptoms.)
> I was trying (badly) to multitask and missed if anyone followed up with the obvious question. i.e.
> Given the above, how the fuck by 1st of June can it be safer for children to go back to school ,than for any other separate household groups to congregate. If the R rate is about the same, children can clearly transmit the virus to each other and adults.
> 
> ...



I'm watching now but haven't got to that yet - but as I understand it, there is evidence now that children are just as likely to pick it up but not enough evidence to call on transmission.
Actually, that's put forwards here as 'no evidence_ to suggest they do_' which seems to ignore the fact that it was largely spread by adult travel to begin with and that schools did eventually close/varying lockdown measures were imposed, so that evidence can't really be produced yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Fatuous point as ever. Presumably you wouldn't challenge, say, Jayda Fransen using the n word?


that's really stupid. I wouldn't myself challenge eg ice cube or ice t using the n word, nor would I challenge a woman calling another woman a bitch or whatnot. It should be clear from the context I meant gender based insults, but if you need everything spelt out for you to the nth degree, I'll remember that in future.  Tbh I wouldn't anticipate challenging jf on her use of language because under pretty much any conceivable situation our paths irl or online are unlikely to coincide. It's a really daft hypothetical to set beside what's happened on this thread.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

xenon said:


> Anyone listen to the PC this afternoon and here Prof Van-Tam state it's believed the R rate between children is about the same as for adults. (Allbeit great majority infected experience very mild to no symptoms.)
> I was trying (badly) to multitask and missed if anyone followed up with the obvious question. i.e.
> Given the above, how the fuck by 1st of June can it be safer for children to go back to school ,than for any other separate household groups to congregate. If the R rate is about the same, children can clearly transmit the virus to each other and adults.
> 
> ...



This is a very considered post.
I think you need to take a look at yourself and have a good think about what it’s doing on this thread.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> ...And yes there is *no comparison* between those workers and the bosses ...


Dunno...they both think their shit doesn't smell.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Don't really want to get into picking through people's private lives but there is no comparison between a worker who is forced to sell their labour to a private business and a boss that owns capital and exploits workers.


I know, I was more just a bit tongue in cheek tbh. Although it’s proper disingenuous to claim that a Montessori teacher has been forced into selling their labour as a teacher in that system  If you are against private education, you get a job down the local state school with local kids, not opt to teach those who can afford private. Just a little sniff of holier than thou hypocrisy (spell checked Louis MacNeice ) from the Italian Marxist Philosopher there


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

So I saw a report on this happening (in England) earlier.

The young children will sit 1 meter apart, any toiletry or injury will have to be dealt with by the child, no matter what happens.   At break they will stand on an X in a hula hoop...which they will not treat as a toy...for 10 or 20 minutes (depending on the weather).

Teachers won't require ppe unless a kid throws up, apparently.

Rich schools aren't opening.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2020)

Big Bertha said:


> Oh it just is isn’t it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your trolling MO has become too obvious now. Take a week off.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I know, I was more just a bit tongue in cheek tbh. Although it’s proper disingenuous to claim that a Montessori teacher has been forced into selling their labour as a teacher in that system  If you are against private education, you get a job down the local state school with local kids, not opt to teach those who can afford private. Just a little sniff of holier than thou hypocrisy (spell checked Louis MacNeice ) from the Italian Marxist Philosopher there


And when there aren't any jobs going in the local state school? When because you can only work part-time because of caring responsibilities and won't get that type of contract at the local state school? Etc.

EDIT: The attack on public services has been done in part to reduce the power of workers to "choose" their employment.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I wouldn't myself challenge eg ice cube or ice t using the n word...



They wouldn't use the n word as a insult, in the way this poster was using 'bitch'.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And when there aren't any jobs going in the local state school? When because you can only work part-time because of caring responsibilities and won't get that type of contract at the local state school? Etc.



When the only choices you have are Montessori, sex work or selling crack to children... eh?  EH?!?!


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Ftr. I kept a record of all the teaching jobs I applied for, whether I got shortlisted etc. etc. over a span of about 15 years.

i can tell you the % of state applications vs. private applications that got shortlisted.

oddly, although I worked in both sectors I was considerably more likely to be shortlisted by private schools.

meaning, despite my opposition to them, it wasn't some sort of free choice to take those jobs when I needed them.


----------



## trashpony (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> What with some analysis of class?
> Yes people are forced to take jobs that aren't perfect, to work for employers they oppose, that can mean having to work for an academy, free or perhaps even private school; you might have to get a job in private healthcare rather than work for the NHS; you may have to work for a nuclear power company or an arms company.
> 
> And yes there is *no comparison* between those workers and the bosses that are stealing from them


This feels like having a conversation with Rick from the Young Ones. 

You do know that you have to undertake specific Montessori training to become a Montessori teacher? So Gramsci's partner probably undertook training which she _knew_ would lead to a job in the private sector. What a class traitor  

And what the fuck has this got to do with state school kids going back to school anyway?!


----------



## B.I.G (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> They wouldn't use the n word as a insult, in the way this poster was using 'bitch'.



They have and they would.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2020)

Interesting how it is these sorts of threads that shows which side people are really on.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

I hate to get involved with this, but there's a difference between teaching in private schools because that's where the available work is, and training for years to learn how to teach in a school sector which is pretty much exclusively private...


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> They have and they would.



Do you have examples?  If you're right, then it poses some interesting questions.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And when there aren't any jobs going in the local state school? When because you can only work part-time because of caring responsibilities and won't get that type of contract at the local state school? Etc.
> 
> EDIT: The attack on public services has been done in part to reduce the power of workers to "choose" their employment.



I do get your point generally but tbf, state schools have been _leaking_ good teaching staff over the last few years (and private schools are also even less likely to be local, too).


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> I hate to get involved with this, but there's a difference between teaching in private schools because that's where the available work is, and training for years to learn how to teach in a school sector which is pretty much exclusively private...


Montessori is almost exclusively nursery, and the nursery sector is mostly private.  I don't think there's much difference (morally) in training to be a Montessori nursery teacher because you like the method, over training to be a mainstream nursery teacher - it will just cost you a lot more.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> So I saw a report on this happening (in England) earlier.
> 
> The young children will sit 1 meter apart, any toiletry or injury will have to be dealt with by the child, no matter what happens.   At break they will stand on an X in a hula hoop...which they will not treat as a toy...for 10 or 20 minutes (depending on the weather).
> 
> ...


An imaginary school in England?


----------



## B.I.G (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Do you have examples?  If you're right, then it poses some interesting questions.



Possibly. It depends exactly what you were suggesting. I may have misunderstood. Are you suggesting they wouldnt use the word in a negative way to another person?

If someone uses a word all the time. To see the meaning, I have to read into what they mean by the words around it.

Or if you mean they can’t use the word in a racist way. That’s a fair enough argument.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Interesting how it is these sorts of threads that shows which side people are really on.


Interesting when people show that their politics outweigh the deaths and danger.

Cunts like you....don't give a fuck about the concerns being voiced all over, only interested in your politics...and judgement.


----------



## LDC (May 18, 2020)

This thread is now nearly 100% bonkers. Sorry for the interruption, I just wanted to say that. Off you go again.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> Montessori is almost exclusively nursery, and the nursery sector is mostly private.  I don't think there's much difference (morally) in training to be a Montessori nursery teacher because you like the method, over training to be a mainstream nursery teacher - it will just cost you a lot more.



We have one here which is 2-12 (erm,_ Brighton,_ tho).


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> We have one here which is 2-12 (erm,_ Brighton,_ tho).


The smoking gun - they're definitely hippies.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> I hate to get involved with this, but there's a difference between teaching in private schools because that's where the available work is, and training for years to learn how to teach in a school sector which is pretty much exclusively private...



Forget the mealy-mouthed explanations, you’re in the little black book, pal.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> The smoking gun - they're definitely hippies.


Aspirant middle class ones though.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> This thread is now nearly 100% bonkers. Sorry for the interruption, I just wanted to say that. Off you go again.



Come on, boffins!
One last push!


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> The smoking gun - they're definitely hippies.


Hebden mate, that was my mental reference


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> Aspirant middle class ones though.


there isn't any other kind.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> The smoking gun - they're definitely hippies.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I know, I was more just a bit tongue in cheek tbh. Although it’s proper disingenuous to claim that a Montessori teacher has been forced into selling their labour as a teacher in that system  If you are against private education, you get a job down the local state school with local kids, not opt to teach those who can afford private. Just a little sniff of holier than thou hypocrisy (spell checked Louis MacNeice ) from the Italian Marxist Philosopher there



Actually all I asked you was why you referred to Montessori as hippy. Perfectly reasonable question to ask.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2020)

Just a bit more on the 'doing it for the young v doing it for the old'








						Woman's Hour - Repeat Attenders, Lockdown in your 20s, Kindness - BBC Sounds
					

Musical theatre's super-fans. Lockdown's lasting impact. How kindness helps mental health.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				



From about 15:40 (Woman's Hour) you get a student being asked who has had it worse. She replies that the young have been doing lockdown and the rest 'mainly for the elderly'.  She then goes on to say the elderly should give something back, for example rent holidays in student accommodation. Obviously I'm in favour of rent holidays and would like to see landlords who are still charging students for accommodation they are not receiving on the sharp end of a rent strike. But to think the defining characteristic of scumbag landlords is their _age_.  I'd have thought it was their class, corporate status and that they are scumbag landlords. Oh, and almost inevitably she links the debt owed by the old to the young to Brexit.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Actually all I asked you was why you referred to Montessori as hippy. Perfectly reasonable question to ask.


You clearly have a point you want to make about how Montessori isn't hippy, so why not just make it instead of repeatedly asking the same question!?!?


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

So, _anyway_... 

*The government’s new contact tracing app may not be ready for 1 June, when some primary schools could reopen. *During the daily Downing Street press conference, foreign secretary Dominic Raab said it would be up and running in the “weeks ahead” but could not give a precise date. Previously the government said it wanted the new tracing system ready this month. 

I mean, really, fuck this. It's moronic.


----------



## kenny g (May 18, 2020)

trashpony said:


> This feels like having a conversation with Rick from the Young Ones.



Applies to a lot of the thread to be honest.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Hebden mate, that was my mental reference


Here are the football results: Brighton 1 v Hebden Bridge 7.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

we'd like to know Mrs Gramsci's opinion on crystal healing before we give her the hippie all-clear tbf


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

trashpony said:


> This feels like having a conversation with Rick from the Young Ones.
> 
> You do know that you have to undertake specific Montessori training to become a Montessori teacher? So Gramsci's partner probably undertook training which she _knew_ would lead to a job in the private sector. What a class traitor
> 
> And what the fuck has this got to do with state school kids going back to school anyway?!



Apart from what redsquirrel has said my partner is an immigrant to this country.

She came here with little money and worked in a series of low paid jobs. Cleaning , being a nanny and working in nurseries. Gradually improving her English. 

She landed a job as assistant in a Montessori school as that is what came along. Finding work in London isn't necessarily that easy. Lot of jobs she has had have been insecure. 

Because she worked hard they offered to pay for her training.

She grasped the opportunity with both hands. 

I'm proud of her coming to this country as an immigrant with English as a second language and getting where she is today. 

She is a worker not a boss. She cares about children.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Aww good for her, wish her well.


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Apart from what redsquirrel has said my partner is an immigrant to this country.
> 
> She came here with little money and worked in a series of low paid jobs. Cleaning , being a nanny and working in nurseries. Gradually improving her English.
> 
> ...



Does she burn joss sticks, though?


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2020)

Leave @Gramsci’s partner alone she’s lovely. Not a hair wrap in sight either.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> we'd like to know Mrs Gramsci's opinion on crystal healing before we give her the hippie all-clear tbf


I bet you have to do all that crystal chakra primal scream gillian mckeithing on webcams now.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> An imaginary school in England?











						Pupils to stand in hoops on playground in 'ridiculous' reopening measures
					

It also said children would be encouraged to clean themselves up if they have a toilet accident or cut themselves.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> I know, I was more just a bit tongue in cheek tbh. Although it’s proper disingenuous to claim that a Montessori teacher has been forced into selling their labour as a teacher in that system  If you are against private education, you get a job down the local state school with local kids, not opt to teach those who can afford private. *Just a little sniff of holier than thou hypocrisy (spell checked Louis MacNeice ) from the Italian Marxist Philosopher there*



Care to explain what this means?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I bet you have to do all that crystal chakra primal scream gillian mckeithing on webcams now.


One of the few therapies where it's just as effective over a webcam as it is when they're in the room with you.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> One of the few therapies where it's just as effective over a webcam as it is when they're in the room with you.


'I'm getting a message for Norm... Norma... Norman? Is there anybody in the room called Norman?'
- Yeah, course there is, it says Noman on the Zoom screen.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> always good to see a man policing women's language


----------



## planetgeli (May 18, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I am a postman. My partner is a teacher. My son is an apprentice  PE assistant/lifeguard at a school. My daughter is a temp contract school bursar. You should have bothered to spellcheck hypocrisy.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



That. (I can't believe my memory is that good for shit detail on this thread).


Louis MacNeice said:


> Care to explain what this means?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> That. (I can't believe my memory is that good for shit detail on this thread).



It was the Italian philosopher bit I didn't get?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## planetgeli (May 18, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It was the Italian philosopher bit I didn't get?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Gramsci (she was replying to or talking about him)


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Gramsci (she was replying to or talking about him)



God I'm being dense!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## planetgeli (May 18, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> God I'm being dense!
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



You've joined the thread at the right moment then.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> If you are against private education, you get a job down the local state school with local kids, not opt to teach those who can afford private.



Are jobs like a pick and mix selection bag; just dip in your hand and pull out what you want? I never knew. Just to be clear my son works as an appentice in a private school (PE and life guarding); I know he didn't see it as a free choice.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> Pupils to stand in hoops on playground in 'ridiculous' reopening measures
> 
> 
> It also said children would be encouraged to clean themselves up if they have a toilet accident or cut themselves.
> ...


I doubt the school actually intends to put those measures in, they put it on facebook to discourage parents from sending children in.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Wow Louis MacNeice 

Anyway back on track, my kids school sent a letter today saying they won’t be starting any class teaching til September (presumably whatever the Govt instructs). Instead they’re getting year 10 & 12 kids in individually to kick their arses. Seems a reasonable strategy, although doesn’t solve the school as a social services place.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> we'd like to know Mrs Gramsci's opinion on crystal healing before we give her the hippie all-clear tbf



It's my background. My parents actually pre dated hippies. It was Beatniks then. My Dad was post war working class who wanted something different to the grey conformity of his father's generation. The hippies came along bit later. My small otherwise conservative town had small alternative society. So I remember the hippies 

Recently I helped save our local adventure playground in London. Looking at the history and it was the hippies who started them and ran them in the 70s. Chatting to my older London born workmates and they all have fond memories of the hippies running the adventure playgrounds. These are all working class guys who grew up on postwar London council estates.

Play / giving working class children from the big estates somewhere to learn through play was done by the "hippies".

Anarchist input as well from people like Colin Ward. At time it was radical to say that play is important. To give the opportunity to the working class kids of postwar city. 

So I have soft spot for Hippies. They are much maligned. 

That's why I asked about it.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Are jobs like a pick and mix selection bag; just dip in your hand and pull out what you want? I never knew. Just to be clear my son works as an appentice in a private school (PE and life guarding); I know he didn't see it as a free choice.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


This is a bit of a revelation tbh. I was led to believe the state system was crying out for teachers. Clearly not.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> I doubt the school actually intends to put those measures in, they put it on facebook to discourage parents from sending children in.


Well I agree with that message 

Truth is hard to find, these days.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Wow Louis MacNeice
> 
> Anyway back on track, my kids school sent a letter today saying they won’t be starting any class teaching til September (presumably whatever the Govt instructs). Instead they’re getting year 10 & 12 kids in individually to kick their arses. Seems a reasonable strategy, although doesn’t solve the school as a social services place.



That is pretty much the proposed idea for secondaries already.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> This is a bit of a revelation tbh. I was led to believe the state system was crying out for teachers. Clearly not.



Schools need teachers, TAs, INAs, office staff, cleaners, caretakers etc.; unfortunately they don't always have the budget to pay for them. You seem a little ill informed on this whole education business...a bit more research/thought needed?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> This is a bit of a revelation tbh. I was led to believe the state system was crying out for teachers. Clearly not.



It is.

...and it isn't

It's crying out for people who can teach Maths or Physics.


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> It is.
> 
> ...and it isn't
> 
> It's crying out for people who can teach Maths or Physics.


Ah right. Makes sense. Subject specific.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> So I saw a report on this happening (in England) earlier.
> 
> The young children will sit 1 meter apart, any toiletry or injury will have to be dealt with by the child, no matter what happens.   At break they will stand on an X in a hula hoop...which they will not treat as a toy...for 10 or 20 minutes (depending on the weather).
> 
> ...




When did 1 metre become 6 feet? Is this a Brexit thing?

As for the hulahoop. Wtf?
This is craziness.  Written by people who have clearly never worked with young kids. 

It assumes that children stay still. 😳😳 they dont. 
It assumes they wont wet themselves or poo in their pants
 They do. Occasionally.

Crazy.


----------



## campanula (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So I have soft spot for Hippies. They are much maligned.



I am a hippy.


just saying.

I don't wear Patchouli but who doesn't love Nag Champa


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> It is.
> 
> ...and it isn't
> 
> It's crying out for people who can teach Maths or Physics.


Yes, as I said part of the increasing privatisation of public services - want to teach an "unproductive" arts or humanity subject, sorry you'll have to go teach at this selective free school/private university; want to get involved with providing support systems for those in need, sorry you'll have to take a job with that charity or third sector business.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Ah right. Makes sense. Subject specific.



Maths. 
The fetishising of maths by the education establishment right now is down to the infiltration of ‘management philosophy’ into all things, and maths results are very easy to measure.

Discuss.

(I am very pro-maths, my job is largely maths, but that is how it strikes me)


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

Edie said:


> Ah right. Makes sense. Subject specific.



Yeah.

There's other factors too.

Budgetary, obviously.

Some schools shifting from Teachers to "paraeducators" (TAs with a fancy title and additional responsibilities but no extra pay)  for routine lesson delivery.

Individual schools preferences for experience or inexperience.

etc. etc.

I know a lot of teachers. Very few have their "pick of jobs". Most struggle to move.

Yet, at the same time most schools that I've been involved with struggle to recruit (and retain) the staff they're after.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> When did 1 metre become 6 feet? Is this a Brexit thing?
> 
> As for the hulahoop. Wtf?
> This is craziness.  Written by people who have clearly never worked with young kids.
> ...


But take it as a premise.

Let's say you're a teacher and you're also aware of the circumstances of your 15-odd  (5 years old or so) pupils.  You know that one family in particular has been saying 'fuck you' to the lockdown   Let's say the young child from that family does _something_ that makes the others want to run to the hurt/distressed/troubled wee one, as happens with all children, all the time.   

You could make a dozen horrible propositions like that in 5 minutes.   All horrible, all real.  All risking lives.

No teacher, no child, no parent and no society should be put in that situation.   And the cunts who are pushing it...the tories...Eton isn't re-opening, as I said. 

It's insane to consider this...as a society we can deal with a disruption, it's good for us.  To put children and those tasked with educating them into such a position...it's nigh on complicit.

(not talking about any posters here, 26 pages)


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> But take it as a premise.
> 
> Let's say you're a teacher and you're also aware of the circumstances of your 15-odd  (5 years old or so) pupils.  You know that one family in particular has been saying 'fuck you' to the lockdown   Let's say the young child from that family does _something_ that makes the others want to run to the hurt/distressed/troubled wee one, as happens with all children, all the time.
> 
> ...




I totally agree with you. 
It is absolute madness. 

Over here the 6feet social distancing is set to stay for a long time. 
Schools may open in Sept but only if the Chief Medical Officer says so. And only if schools can ensure 6 feet between pupils. There wont be classes of 28. There may be classes of 4. And pupils might only attend onsite one day a week and the rest of the time at home. 

I cant understand the UK position. And I wonder if Northern Ireland will follow suit? That will surely affect people living near the border on both sides.


----------



## kenny g (May 18, 2020)

Lots of people who have never voted conservative think children should be able to go back to school and teachers should attend school to educate them.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Lots of people who have never voted conservative think children should be able to go back to school and teachers should attend school to educate them.



And?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Lots of people who have never voted conservative think children should be able to go back to school and teachers should attend school to educate them.



So?


----------



## kenny g (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> And the cunts who are pushing it...the tories...Eton isn't re-opening, as I said.



I was posting in response to the above. I support children being able to attend their schools. I am not a tory. What eton does shouldn't stop the state providing schools for children to attend.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> Some schools shifting from Teachers to "paraeducators" (TAs with a fancy title and additional responsibilities but no extra pay)  for routine lesson delivery.



As part of my course as a social policy and administration undergraduate some 30 years ago I met met a senior foundation trust hospital manger who was very explicit  about this process. His 'business' as he described it, had 75% of it's cost in wages/salaries. Therefore shifting work tasks down the pay grades - at that time from doctors to nurses, latterly from nurses to health care assistants and assistant practitioners - was the most effective way of diminishing the trust's expenditure, and that was the primary driver. 

It's not new and it's not clever.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Red Cat (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Lots of people who have never voted conservative think children should be able to go back to school and teachers should attend school to educate them.



Nice elision of children and teachers there.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I was posting in response to the above. I support children being able to attend their schools. I am not a tory. What eton does shouldn't stop the state providing schools for children to attend.


I said I wasn't talking to any posters, only the topic.

But you're saying it's fine for rich children to stay off while state children go back?


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Lots of people who have never voted conservative think children should be able to go back to school and teachers should attend school to educate them.



Lol...
Lots of people of all and any political persuasion are thick as planks too.


----------



## Indeliblelink (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Lol...
> Lots of people of all and any political persuasion are thick as planks too.


Maybe they should of spent more time at school.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> I said I wasn't talking to any posters, only the topic.
> 
> But you're saying it's fine for rich children to stay off while state children go back?



Rich children are the least likely to be harmed by missing some school.

But I’m mindful of what xenon was saying earlier.  Maybe it’s not the right time.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> Rich children are the least likely to be harmed by missing some school.
> 
> But I’m mindful of what xenon was saying earlier.  Maybe it’s not the right time.


I'm mindful of what I said, opening the schools is an insane (and malicious) concept.  It's based on malice.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

The only people making decisions about schools opening should be chief medical officers.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> The only people making decisions about schools opening should be chief medical officers.



You don’t think maybe people with knowledge of stuff like education should have any input?


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> I'm mindful of what I said, opening the schools is an insane (and malicious) concept.  It's based on malice.



Your reasoning?


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 18, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Lots of people who have never voted conservative think children should be able to go back to school and teachers should attend school to educate them.



Everyone wants kids to be able to go back to school.
Teachers want to go back to schools to be able to do their jobs also.
It clearly isn't  merely a case of teachers not attending school that is the issue here.
Nearly all the parents I know are not willing to send their kids back to school now. Some are keyw orkers but will pull their kids out now if others return before certain measures are in place.

Most teachers haven't stopped working, either whether at school or from home. None I know have had a break.

The minimising of their concerns, the concerns of parents etc is really shitty. I'm not convinced by this 'think of the children' argument in the slightest because it willfully ignores context which makes it shallow. as fuck.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> Your reasoning?


a) Kids, grandkids, the concept of the behaviours required by these entities and their inability to conform to those vital requirements for a period of longer than 11 minutes.  

b) The gambling with the lives of them, their families, the teachers, the teacher's families and anyone who has to be in contact with any of them.

c) Basically...we're in lockdown.  There's no reasonable argument for breaking lockdown so early without any demonstrable examples to show the positives.   There are none.   And the rich kids aren't doing it.


----------



## frogwoman (May 18, 2020)

This is interesting Coronavirus: Poor families less likely to want to send their children back to school, survey finds


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> a) Kids, grandkids, the concept of the behaviours required by these entities and their inability to conform to those vital requirements for a period of longer than 11 minutes.
> 
> b) The gambling with the lives of them, their families, the teachers, the teacher's families and anyone who has to be in contact with any of them.
> 
> c) Basically...we're in lockdown.  There's no reasonable argument for breaking lockdown so early without any demonstrable examples to show the positives.   There are none.   And the rich kids aren't doing it.



I think it can be easy to ascribe malice where there is simple incompetence involved.

The Government have shown themselves to be a near infinite wellspring of incompetence.

They do have a track record of malice too, I’ll grant you.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> They wouldn't use the n word as a insult, in the way this poster was using 'bitch'.


if that's the best retort you've got it's time to draw a veil over this


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> You don’t think maybe people with knowledge of stuff like education should have any input?




I think the people who know most about pandemics should be the ones to make the ultimate decision regarding how safe it is to reopen schools.

And health and safety must be the first priority ... always


----------



## DexterTCN (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> I think it can be easy to ascribe malice where there is simple incompetence involved.
> 
> The Government have shown themselves to be a near infinite wellspring of incompetence.
> 
> They do have a track record of malice too, I’ll grant you.


I've not been quick to ascribe it.  However now being in that position, I find nothing from them to make reconsideration effective.


----------



## 8ball (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I think the people who know most about pandemics should be the ones to make the ultimate decision regarding how safe it is to reopen schools.
> 
> And health and safety must be the first priority ... always



The Government will find medics to take their party line if they so wish


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


>


You don't  get sarcasm I see


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> And health and safety must be the first priority ... always


What if the rate of infection in the Uk just basically stays as it is right now for say two years though?
I just don’t know anymore, but a lot of faiths being put in there being a clear end in sight just not quite yet where I can’t see where that confidence is coming from really.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> The Government will find medics to take their party line if they so wish



That's awful.
Over here the chief medical officer is thankfully independent of government.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

8ball said:


> But I’m mindful of what xenon was saying earlier.  Maybe it’s not the right time.



I keep feeling a bit baffled that this might be _news_ to anyone - that the idea of opening schools soon, without waiting for real evidence, is just a no-brainer  - but I am not working atm or wfh (canteen staff in a secondary school), so I will totally acknowledge that I have loads more time atm to be reading every, single thing that relates to it.

But I am still completely focused on the impact on the wider community - it's really fucking me off that the issues around schools are constantly framed, by the gov, as dismissing risks to_ children_ when there _are_ risks to them, albeit minimal so far (re the Kawasaki/Toxic shock syndrome stuff) but where there are obvious potential risks that grow from transmission via kids, _outwards_, too, with no information being shared on that, despite unions repeatedly requesting that evidence.

We still don't have enough PPE provision for all NHS workers, ffs, let alone in care homes - and now they want to open schools? It's brainless - not because children are_ more precious _- just because we are clearly not there yet, when every 'target' set is changed (because they have _all_ failed).


----------



## nagapie (May 18, 2020)

I think, surprisingly, the decision to open schools is the first thing that has actually had a significant impact on support for the government. 
Their response to the crisis has been so terrible but still the general population seemed to think the PM was doing a good job. Until now. 
Ironically I'm sure they thought this move would meet with mass approval from parents desperate to get their children back to school. But whichever way you look at it, it's still only a few weeks of school for an unknown quantity of risk.


----------



## planetgeli (May 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> What if the rate of infection in the Uk just basically stays as it is right now for say two years though?



Then the government will have plenty of time to get the PPE in.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> That's awful.
> Over here the chief medical officer is thankfully independent of government.


No chief medical officer, or equivalent, is independent of the state. They've got where they are for a reason.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 18, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I think, surprisingly, the decision to open schools is the first thing that has actually had a significant impact on support for the government.
> Their response to the crisis has been so terrible but still the general population seemed to think the PM was doing a good job. Until now.
> Ironically I'm sure they thought this move would meet with mass approval from parents desperate to get their children back to school. But whichever way you look at it, it's still only a few weeks of school for an unknown quantity of risk.


I think there's huge animosity towards and distrust of this government. It's just not reported on.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

]





DexterTCN said:


> Pupils to stand in hoops on playground in 'ridiculous' reopening measures
> 
> 
> It also said children would be encouraged to clean themselves up if they have a toilet accident or cut themselves.
> ...



I've heard similar from a parent.

Interesting comment from one parent. With all the social distancing within schools that is proposed it negates the learning process for development of children. Its possibly counterproductive:



> We have taught our children to share, to play nicely, to comfort upset friends. What they will now be doing is the total opposite. This seems like more of a punishment for children who are all developing and learning.’


----------



## Spandex (May 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> What if the rate of infection in the Uk just basically stays as it is right now for say two years though?
> I just don’t know anymore, but a lot of faiths being put in there being a clear end in sight just not quite yet where I can’t see where that confidence is coming from really.


What's needed to get towards some kind of normality until a vaccine turns up (if a vaccine turns up) is a shit hot test-trace-isolate system.

All the talk of vulnerable children, the importance of schooling or whatever from the government and their supporters is just so much blather to distract from the simple fact that they've failed to sort out a test-trace-isolate system and it'll still be weeks before they've got one, working or otherwise.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 18, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I think, surprisingly, the decision to open schools is the first thing that has actually had a significant impact on support for the government.
> Their response to the crisis has been so terrible but still the general population seemed to think the PM was doing a good job. Until now.
> Ironically I'm sure they thought this move would meet with mass approval from parents desperate to get their children back to school. But whichever way you look at it, it's still only a few weeks of school for an unknown quantity of risk.



Well they've changed their language now, haven't they? The NHS were all great - with lots of evidence that they fucked it/it's workers. Embarrassing.

 Feels to me like they have learnt from that and have gone right in on schools/teachers - 'duty' etc - no claps for teachers. Fuck all that - we're far enough into it that everyone has adjusted to it and we can go back to normal, focus on the £££'s and _telling people off._


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> ]
> 
> I've heard similar from a parent.
> 
> Interesting comment from one parent. With all the social distancing within schools that is proposed it negates the learning process for development of children. Its possibly counterproductive:


No social distancing has actually been proposed for young children though, has it?  Is any country distancing under 7s in schools or nurseries?

My concern about the talk about how disturbing it will be for children to go to school or childcare with any form of extra hygiene measures or social distancing in place, is that it seems likely to me that things will not be all back to normal by September.
Are key workers damaging the development of their children by sending them to school and childcare now?


----------



## William of Walworth (May 18, 2020)

Very belated condolences to Wilf -- big sympathies for your loss


----------



## William of Walworth (May 18, 2020)

Belatedly catching up with this thread (I'm just at page 15 so far)

Neither of us are either parents or teachers, but I thoroughly agree with most on this thread who are saying schools should not reopen ahead of September.
Here in Wales it seems that they're not going to be opened any earlier than that, thankfully -- but issues still remain potentially, even in September, as planetgeli has already posted about.
If schools are opened prematurely, pupils' and teachers' safety will inevitably be compromised, but not just theirs -- the safety of _anyone_ in close contact with them will also be affected.

I also agree with the teaching unions' positions on this, so far as I've seen their positions anyway.

</continues with thread>


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> No social distancing has actually been proposed for young children though, has it?  Is any country distancing under 7s in schools or nurseries?
> 
> My concern about the talk about how disturbing it will be for children to go to school or childcare with any form of extra hygiene measures or social distancing in place, is that it seems likely to me that things will not be all back to normal by September.
> Are key workers damaging the development of their children by sending them to school and childcare now?



Have a look at this from France:









						French teachers paint squares to enforce social distancing for pupils
					

One historian described the images of children playing in 'isolated squares' as 'heartbreaking'




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> No social distancing has actually been proposed for young children though, has it?  Is any country distancing under 7s in schools or nurseries?
> 
> My concern about the talk about how disturbing it will be for children to go to school or childcare with any form of extra hygiene measures or social distancing in place, is that it seems likely to me that things will not be all back to normal by September.
> Are key workers damaging the development of their children by sending them to school and childcare now?



Ive heard from a teacher who is going for few days a week to teach key workers children that in practise its very hard to do social distancing in school setting.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Have a look at this from France:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't doubt that that particular school is managing things in a particularly silly way, but that's not actually a requirement for French schools, is it?
Some English schools have posted similar "shock" photos on facebook to dissuade parents from sending children back in.
Lots of schools however are managing things really well in a child friendly way.

The issue with reopening schools is that it may increase community transmission, the government doesn't have a sufficient testing and tracking system in place to deal with outbreaks, and teachers are put at particular risk.  I don't find the dramatic stuff about social distancing traumatising children very helpful as those measures are likely to be with us for a while.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Ive heard from a teacher who is going for few days a week to teach key workers children that in practise its very hard to do social distancing in school setting.


Of course, you can't make young children physically distance from each other or from the adults caring for them.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> I don't doubt that that particular school is managing things in a particularly silly way, but that's not actually a requirement for French schools, is it?
> Some English schools have posted similar "shock" photos on facebook to dissuade parents from sending children back in.
> Lots of schools however are managing things really well in a child friendly way.
> 
> The issue with reopening schools is that it may increase community transmission, the government doesn't have a sufficient testing and tracking system in place to deal with outbreaks, and teachers are put at particular risk.  I don't find the dramatic stuff about social distancing traumatising children very helpful as those measures are likely to be with us for a while.



So these child friendly schools - what are they suggesting?


----------



## Edie (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> Of course, you can't make young children physically distance from each other or from the adults caring for them.


This is just common sense eh. I bloody hope they’re not basing any calculations on reception age kids understanding a two metre rule, that would be INSANE.

Anyway the whole gentle ribbing of Gramsci missus for chakra aligning has been fun (even for a capitalist pigdog like me). You may well all prove right about it being way too soon re schools. I very very much hope I’m not proved too right about the recession and job losses. And I know nyxx secretly has a massive girl crush on me so I’ll leave it there 😘


----------



## Athos (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So these child friendly schools - what are they suggesting?



Distancing between but not within bubbles.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So these child friendly schools - what are they suggesting?


You can read the government guidance if you want - children in small fixed groups with fixed adults, kept separate from other groups, extra hygiene measures etc.  Young children aren't expected to maintain physical distance from each other or adults within their group in nurseries or primary schools.

Even if it is "safe enough" for schools to return in August or September, it's likely those measures will still have to be in place.  They still have these measures in places like Germany and the Netherlands where cases are much lower.  We won't be able to wait to open childcare and schools until it's all back to normal.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Distancing between but not within bubbles.



So some schools are going to use marks on floor and some arent but both are going to socially distance children in the school environment?

Oh I see in small groups.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> You can read the government guidance if you want - children in small fixed groups with fixed adults, kept separate from other groups, extra hygiene measures etc.  Young children aren't expected to maintain physical distance from each other or adults within their group in nurseries or primary schools.
> 
> Even if it is "safe enough" for schools to return in August or September, it's likely those measures will still have to be in place.  They still have these measures in places like Germany and the Netherlands where cases are much lower.  We won't be able to wait to open childcare and schools until it's all back to normal.



I dont trust guidance from this government any more.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I dont trust guidance from this government any more.


Great, but that's what childcare, nurseries and schools are going to be following.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

My partners been worried about this re opening. Now its going to be fine because Boris has put out government guidance for schools .Im so relieved thats sorted then.


----------



## Thora (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> My partners been worried about this re opening. Now its going to be fine because Boris has put out government guidance for schools .Im so relieved thats sorted then.


Do you think schools and nurseries should only reopen once there are no extra measures put in?


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2020)

Thora said:


> Do you think schools and nurseries should only reopen once there are no extra measures put in?



Id like to have a government I feel I could trust. With recent events Ive lost faith in them.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> No chief medical officer, or equivalent, is independent of the state. They've got where they are for a reason.



You may well have a point. However,  I would doubt that he would want his name to go down in history as the person responsible for letting kids and teachers back to school too early, leading to kids and teachers becoming ill or dying.


----------



## Aladdin (May 18, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Have a look at this from France:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is heartbreaking. 
Seeing little kids isolated in squares on the yard is heartbreaking.


----------



## Humberto (May 18, 2020)

They have been doing away with the idea that the state and society should help each other, now that they have been rumbled they are trying to prevent revolution and rebellion.


----------



## ska invita (May 19, 2020)

Good thread here...schools in Denmark have reopend - but compares under what circumstances in comparison with the UK









						Thread by @mcash: Danish schools have reopened, why not the UK? Teachers want schools to go back but we want it to be safe. That's why the @NEUnion set 5 simp…
					

Thread by @mcash: Danish schools have reopened, why not the UK? Teachers want schools to go back but we want it to be safe. That's why the @Non set 5 simple tests. Let's look at the Danish experience: a thread. (1/8) NEU Test 1: Much lower numbers of Cov…




					threadreaderapp.com


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Good thread here...schools in Denmark have reopend - but compares under what circumstances in comparison with the UK
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Major difference is trust in authorities:




> VP of Danish teacher union: “we were consulted so much that we felt quite safe about this. We said to our members that we think that we can actually trust the authorities and that it will be OK to go back.” (8/8)


----------



## DexterTCN (May 19, 2020)




----------



## Buddy Bradley (May 19, 2020)

Edie said:


> Yeah it’s okay cos apparently he’s signing up at 15 years and 7 months. _Despite never having voluntarily got out of bed and being literally incapable of taking a single instruction from an adult._


Our middle child briefly flirted with the idea of joining the army, despite me pointing out that following orders was as far from her natural state as it was possible to get.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (May 19, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Major difference is trust in authorities:


Also the difference in school design - most schools in Denmark are combined primary+secondary, which means that if only primary kids go back they have a huge amount of space available within which to enforce social distancing.


----------



## Red Cat (May 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> The issue with reopening schools is that it may increase community transmission, the government doesn't have a sufficient testing and tracking system in place to deal with outbreaks, and teachers are put at particular risk.  I don't find the dramatic stuff about social distancing traumatising children very helpful as those measures are likely to be with us for a while.



I agree.

I find the whole there's going to be a mental health crisis imminently really unhelpful too. I can't stand the use of medical language (traumatised being one of them) to describe people struggling with difficult feelings in response to very difficult circumstances and the assumption that they need professional help. It should be talked about with children, where possible, not with dramatic adult talk about how awful the government is, but that the adults are working together to make sure that everything is as safe as it can be, but that it won't be back to normal for a while, and there'll be small changes bit by bit that will be hard but we'll manage.

I think something that is more likely to be effected is the male suicide rate due to unemployment.


----------



## flypanam (May 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> You can read the government guidance if you want - children in small fixed groups with fixed adults, kept separate from other groups, extra hygiene measures etc.  Young children aren't expected to maintain physical distance from each other or adults within their group in nurseries or primary schools.
> 
> Even if it is "safe enough" for schools to return in August or September, it's likely those measures will still have to be in place.  They still have these measures in places like Germany and the Netherlands where cases are much lower.  We won't be able to wait to open childcare and schools until it's all back to normal.


The government’s advice is that even marking work books is unsafe 








						Marking books not safe suggests new coronavirus guidance for teachers
					

Councils warn parents not to expect schools to open on 1 June as government prepares for union talks




					www.google.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Also the difference in school design - most schools in Denmark are combined primary+secondary, which means that if only primary kids go back they have a huge amount of space available within which to enforce social distancing.



This.
The school my sister works in is junior and five forms per year, with only year six going back there is tons of room for them.
BB2’s school is primary two form entry and has four classrooms off the hall and a separate reception block, all based around a tiny playground. No way can reception and year one go back and maintain any space. The head emailed yesterday to say she has no idea how the can reopen and have heard jack shit from the DfE.


----------



## Thora (May 19, 2020)

flypanam said:


> The government’s advice is that even marking work books is unsafe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that’s union advice rather than government.


----------



## flypanam (May 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> I think that’s union advice rather than government.


Opps, thanks.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 19, 2020)

krink said:


> oh and just an aside, can certain posters refrain from equating working from home to being middle class? i have been made to work from home at the moment and i qualify for benefits my pay is so low. there's shit loads of low paid people who can work from home.


Same here, and looking after my 18 month old on my own while trying to do my full time low paid job while his mum is at work at the hospital. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't swap it for a job at a supermarket or hospital ward but I'm not exactly sitting around in sandals doing arts and crafts and eating hummus and mung bean salad.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

This argument stop having a go at the government and discuss this like adults to get children back to school does sound to me like another way to have a go at Unions..

ska invita article from Denmark shows that the Danish government has worked with teachers to open schools The kind of precautions that the Teachers Union has been asking for in this country have been met in Denmark.

So the NEU questions to government are still valid with posters?

Or is it that this is having a go at the government and should stop now?


----------



## baldrick (May 19, 2020)

Spandex said:


> What's needed to get towards some kind of normality until a vaccine turns up (if a vaccine turns up) is a shit hot test-trace-isolate system.
> 
> All the talk of vulnerable children, the importance of schooling or whatever from the government and their supporters is just so much blather to distract from the simple fact that they've failed to sort out a test-trace-isolate system and it'll still be weeks before they've got one, working or otherwise.


Yes. If I was a parent I wouldn't be sending my kid to school until that was in place, and shown to be working efficiently. 

It's been obvious that it was needed for months but there's been no hurry to get it sorted. No part of the response by this government has been in any way timely or efficient. Just a series of measures implemented months after they became obvious to everyone that they were needed.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

Just been listening to Womens Hour talking to a Head Teacher from Brent talking in the most patronising fashion about woring class BAME parents. They don't keep up with the news. So aren't aware of the safety issues of pandemic..

Govenment is not giving "clarity" but then it is having "fight with Unions" so that explains it.


And got the getting the economy back going again for the benefit of working class line from Head. But kept saying as Head didnt know if it was safe or not to reopen school.

Infuriatating.


----------



## baldrick (May 19, 2020)

Was that Katherine Birbalsingh by any chance?


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

baldrick said:


> Was that Katherine Birbalsingh by any chance?



Didn't catch the name of the Head.


----------



## zahir (May 19, 2020)

> Just one week after a third of French children went back to school in an easing of the coronavirus lockdown, there has been a worrying flare-up of about 70 Covid-19 cases linked to schools.





> French education minister Jean-Michel Blanquer sounded the alarm on Monday, telling French radio RTL that the return has put some children in new danger of contamination. He said the affected schools are being closed immediately. French media reported that seven schools in northern France were closed.











						70 cases of Covid-19 linked to French schools days after reopening
					

The London Economic - France reopened about 40,000 preschools and primary schools last week, with classes capped at 15 students.- News




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Mattym (May 19, 2020)

We've just had our 'plans for going back to school' meeting on Teams. I think school & the leadership team have gone above and beyond to make the place safe. What makes me so bloody anxious is the advice that they are getting from the DfE and the government, (who have yet to get anything right) and whether the 5 union checks have been met?


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

My school has a Zoom for union members this afternoon re concerns around safety. But senior management seem to have pre-empted this as new rota shows students will only come in in groups of 5 and only be taught by the senior team.


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2020)

nagapie said:


> My school has a Zoom for union members this afternoon re concerns around safety. But senior management seem to have pre-empted this as new rota shows students will only come in in groups of 5 and only be taught by the senior team.


What’s the idea with groups of five do you mean max five in a classroom altogether at any time or groups of 5 children can interact freely only within that group?


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> What’s the idea with groups of five do you mean max five in a classroom altogether at any time or groups of 5 children can interact freely only within that group?


Secondary school. So 5 students come in for the day and only interact with each other. Only one year group.


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2020)

That sounds very manageable? Maybe it’s silly to have been thinking in black and white terms like schools are either open or shut, you’re describing something else really.


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> That sounds very manageable? Maybe it’s silly to have been thinking in black and white terms like schools are either open or shut, you’re describing something else really.



Most schools have been open all through this. Just limited who can come in.


----------



## planetgeli (May 19, 2020)

Another note on 'they all want to get back to school'. My county opened up hubs in schools with provision for 1400 kids county-wide. 

Take up has been 250.


----------



## Thora (May 19, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Another note on 'they all want to get back to school'. My county opened up hubs in schools with provision for 1400 kids county-wide.
> 
> Take up has been 250.


Instructions were strictly that children should only come to school if they couldn’t safely stay at home though, so you’d expect take up to be low.


----------



## planetgeli (May 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> Instructions were strictly that children should only come to school if they couldn’t safely stay at home though, so you’d expect take up to be low.



Take up in mainstream around here just before the lockdown, but after social distancing was announced, was 33%. Instructions then were that going to school was ok. I'd suggest you're going to get similar take-up if schools go back in some form on June 1st because, as Ms Ordinary has just posted in another thread,



> Just heard a Mental Health Awareness type on the radio, quoting research that shows UK has the greatest FOGO (fear of going out / fear of returning to the outside world) of the countries studied.
> 
> No shit, maybe it's because most of us have zero confidence that people's lives matter more than the economy/ wealth generation to the people telling us to get back out there


----------



## 8ball (May 19, 2020)

First time I've heard of FOGO.
Strikes me as plausible that the UK should score highly.  I've been quite surprised by it.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

I talked to teacher in state school last week. He was going in couple of days a week to teach key workers children.

The numbers were low. School had estimated for more.

He reckons some key worker parents still preferred to keep children out of school due to health concerns.


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

It's just a token. We are not being asked to work the impossible like primary schools. These children will only have 2 days in school before the summer. It wouldn't make much difference if they didn't come except i think they will be glad to see some peers. Of course parents may choose not to send them as my school is overwhelmingly made up of BAME groups that have been hit hard by the virus.


----------



## 8ball (May 19, 2020)

Does anyone know yet why BAME groups have been hit harder?

I wasn't sure whether it was all down to health/social inequalities and BAME groups being a little more likely to be key workers.


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Another note on 'they all want to get back to school'. My county opened up hubs in schools with provision for 1400 kids county-wide.
> 
> Take up has been 250.



Because people were, rightly, afraid.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 19, 2020)

If they do start back in some primary schools in England on June 1st (Those where councils or school leaderships have not pulled the plug on it) expect a drop off in attendance as parents realise how horrendous, traumatising and education-alienating an experience it is going to be with the conditions required, particularly for nursery, reception and year 1 kids. Partner’s school had generally positive response from a majority of parents initially, gradually declining now as parents become aware of how little of what is required is in place compared to in other countries (eg test-track-trace-isolate) and what the “education experience” is going to be like. (E.g. like something from a Dickens novel, being sat at a desk most of the day, even for lunch, and not being able to use resources, go out and play or socialise in a normal way....)


----------



## planetgeli (May 19, 2020)

Only 5% of teachers think it safe to reopen English schools, poll shows
					

Survey by NASUWT union shows more work needed to win trust and allay fears




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (May 19, 2020)

d


planetgeli said:


> Only 5% of teachers think it safe to reopen English schools, poll shows
> 
> 
> Survey by NASUWT union shows more work needed to win trust and allay fears
> ...



Quite good going, that this shitshow if a Government has such a high degree of trust.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 19, 2020)

This is the risk assessment checklist drawn up by the unions incase anyone's interested (definitely illustrates how complex and complicated it is!) - 


			https://www.gmb.org.uk/sites/default/files/12%20STEP%20GUIDANCE%20PRIMARY%20SCHOOLS%20REOPENING.pdf


----------



## trashpony (May 19, 2020)

8ball said:


> Does anyone know yet why BAME groups have been hit harder?
> 
> I wasn't sure whether it was all down to health/social inequalities and BAME groups being a little more likely to be key workers.


According to a survey from the BMA, because they get less PPE if they work in healthcare 




__





						BAME doctors hit worse by lack of PPE
					

Doctors with BAME (black, Asian and minority ethnic) backgrounds have been disproportionately affected by the chronic shortages of PPE (personal protective equipment) across the NHS.




					www.bma.org.uk


----------



## 8ball (May 19, 2020)

trashpony said:


> According to a survey from the BMA, because they get less PPE if they work in healthcare
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The difficulty in getting PAPR masks for some individuals makes a kind of sense (logically speaking, I mean - it's still inexcusable), but that is bound to be a minority compared to the overall figures (and obviously lots of BAME people with much higher morbidity and mortality rates are not health care workers).

Not that any of that makes it any less shocking that there should be a pronounced difference re: the PPE.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (May 19, 2020)

On the FOGO thing, I was struck by (again from the radio, last week) a woman working as a Forest Schools co-ordinator (something like that, usually providing Forest Schools classes to inner city schools) saying how many children in her area (Hackney / Tower Hamlets IIRC) just haven't left their flats at all since the schools closed .
Total confinement.

Which sounded entirely plausible, based on what I see & hear around here (Brixton anyway, less so in Herne Hill) and desperately sad. And a health risk, long & short term.

So if there was a safe, safety-centred way to get children from overcrowded homes outside into fresh air, I'd be all for it.  Failing that, it seems the worst thing you could do would be create a situation that increased infections & fear & put them back into confinement for even longer.


----------



## 8ball (May 19, 2020)

Ms Ordinary said:


> On the FOGO thing, I was struck by (again from the radio, last week) a woman working as a Forest Schools co-ordinator (something like that, usually providing Forest Schools classes to inner city schools) saying how many children in her area (Hackney / Tower Hamlets IIRC) just haven't left their flats at all since the schools closed .
> Total confinement.


----------



## Celyn (May 19, 2020)

Scottish plan might be to re-open schools in August, with pupils half of the time in school and half of the time at home.
Scottish schools expected to return in August, plans reveal


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

Ms Ordinary said:


> On the FOGO thing, I was struck by (again from the radio, last week) a woman working as a Forest Schools co-ordinator (something like that, usually providing Forest Schools classes to inner city schools) saying how many children in her area (Hackney / Tower Hamlets IIRC) just haven't left their flats at all since the schools closed .
> Total confinement.
> 
> Which sounded entirely plausible, based on what I see & hear around here (Brixton anyway, less so in Herne Hill) and desperately sad. And a health risk, long & short term.
> ...



Ive been doing a few food deliveries for Mutual Aid in this area. I have delivered food to a few parents on local estates. Some parents have been understandably very worried about the virus and keeping younger children in. 

I really dont know how Forest Schools and adventure playgrounds are going to open any time soon.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> Instructions were strictly that children should only come to school if they couldn’t safely stay at home though, so you’d expect take up to be low.



Is that true for the children of key workers?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Is that true for the children of key workers?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yes.


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

nagapie said:


> My school has a Zoom for union members this afternoon re concerns around safety. But senior management seem to have pre-empted this as new rota shows students will only come in in groups of 5 and only be taught by the senior team.


Sadly middle leaders now being asked to supervise so teachers likely to kick back as currently with only 15 key worker/ vulnerable children in, we have no social distancing, no ppe and little to no other infection control measures.
Teachers also asking what is the worth of this limited return to school, considering the risks to teachers, students and families. Many staff will have to come in on public transport. And year 10 students are 15/16 so not really in the lowest risk category any more, especially when you add in other factors like race and class.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (May 19, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Ive been doing a few food deliveries for Mutual Aid in this area. I have delivered food to a few parents on local estates. Some parents have been understandably very worried about the virus and keeping younger children in.
> 
> I really dont know how Forest Schools and adventure playgrounds are going to open any time soon.



I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it safe... 

The Forest Schools lady was delivering activity packs to families


----------



## Thora (May 19, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Is that true for the children of key workers?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yes it was initially - from 13th May they have said key worker children can attend even if they could stay at home.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 19, 2020)

The Brave New World (Best Case Scenario): 








						Distanced drop-offs and protective bubbles: England's new school rules
					

The schools reopening from 1 June will look very different to the ones that closed in March




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Thora (May 19, 2020)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> The Brave New World (Best Case Scenario):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not what we're currently used to, but it's not horrendous is it   
Lots of children have spent the last 2 months stuck inside with no one to play with and parents working - that isn't ideal either.
There won't be soft toys and they'll have their own pencil case, but they will cope.  The most important thing for most children will be seeing their friends and teacher.  I don't actually remember having even balls and hoops at play time when I was at school, let alone play equipment.
I'm a childminder and have also implemented lots of these measures and we've all been fine.


----------



## kenny g (May 19, 2020)

Ms Ordinary said:


> I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it safe...
> 
> The Forest Schools lady was delivering activity packs to families



As per below children seem remarkably unlikely to die from covid 19. 








__





						Deaths involving COVID-19, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
					

Number of deaths registered each month in England and Wales, including deaths involving the coronavirus (COVID-19), by age, sex and region.



					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> As per below children seem remarkably unlikely to die from covid 19.
> 
> 
> View attachment 213496
> ...


good morning do you not understand that everyone knows this but that evidence (contested though) suggests children when infected carry as much viral load as anyone else and will pass it on and that’s what the problem is?


----------



## andysays (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> As per below children seem remarkably unlikely to die from covid 19.
> 
> 
> View attachment 213496
> ...


The primary risk isn't children dying from covid 19, it's asymptomatic children transmitting to other children, who then transmit to members of their household, who then either die as a result or transmit to others, eg their workmates, or both.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> As per below children seem remarkably unlikely to die from covid 19.
> 
> 
> View attachment 213496
> ...



But it probably doesn't help that a high-profile early death here was a 13 year old boy, and that BAME families, or families where one or both parent is a keyworker, are more likely to know someone who's died of covid.

Local kids might be just as safe as the middle class white children I see in the park, if they each had a wfh parent to take them out for fresh air one by one, but I still wouldn't blame their parents for doing what *feels *safest for their families at the moment. (And its probably true that being stuck inside an overcrowded flat is less safe than being safely outside... but if the parents don't have a way of taking them outside safely, they aren't going to)


----------



## planetgeli (May 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> good morning



You've misspelt fuck off   

And you've missed the point that these kids will only be passing it on to old fogies and why should we bother,



kenny g said:


> slightly extending the lives of those who are often near end of life anyway.


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2020)

Don’t know why everyone’s making such a fuss anyway we’re doing great .


----------



## LDC (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> As per below children seem remarkably unlikely to die from covid 19.
> 
> 
> View attachment 213496
> ...



Fuck it, you're finally going on ignore for your constant stream of idiotic ill-thought out posts that contribute fuck all of value to any discussion.


----------



## kenny g (May 19, 2020)

[a triple post]


----------



## kenny g (May 19, 2020)

[a double post]


----------



## kenny g (May 19, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> You've misspelt fuck off
> 
> And you've missed the point that these kids will only be passing it on to old fogies and why should we bother,



I haven't called anyone an "old fogie".  It is an obvious fact that old people are more likely to die generally. By the time you are in your eighties and nineties the odds of death are remarkably high. Covid makes that more likely. This makes covid unlike some other mass infections. During the polio outbreak in the 1950's , for example, the young were affected more than the old. Patrick Cockburn · Diary: The 1956 Polio Epidemic · LRB 7 May 2020 

I fully accept that not allowing children to attend school for a few weeks was a proportionate response to the peak of the epidemic. We have now passed that peak and the risk/ harm balance decisions that are taken in all areas of life need to be reviewed. I am yet to be convinced, despite the bluster from some, that it is better for children to not be given the opportunity to attend their schools.


----------



## trashpony (May 19, 2020)

Forgive me if I'm covering old ground kenny g but do you have children or work in education? Obviously that doesn't stop you having an opinion, but I was just wondering.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 19, 2020)

baldrick said:


> Was that Katherine Birbalsingh by any chance?



She's a dangerous nutcase.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 19, 2020)

No 10 retreats as rebellion over schools gathers pace
					

Up to 1,500 English primary schools defy or cast doubt on 1 June reopeningCoronavirus – latest updatesSee all our coronavirus coverage




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

The London Evening Standard this evening.
Edited by Osbourne. Its about breaking the Unions.


----------



## baldrick (May 19, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's a dangerous nutcase.


She's a controversial figure for sure. But you can't say she hasn't put her money where her mouth is. I have a lot of respect for what she's done if I'm honest. But she is a relentless self promotor!


----------



## kenny g (May 19, 2020)

trashpony said:


> Forgive me if I'm covering old ground kenny g but do you have children or work in education? Obviously that doesn't stop you having an opinion, but I was just wondering.



No problem. I don't really want to go into using my family as a discussion point as I am not sure what it proves either way.

Answer is yes to the children. Don't currently work in education but have in the past.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 19, 2020)

baldrick said:


> She's a controversial figure for sure. But you can't say she hasn't put her money where her mouth is. I have a lot of respect for what she's done if I'm honest. But she is a relentless self promotor!



Whether or not you agree with her core aim of building a four hundred foot statue of herself using only human skulls, you must admire the level of application and commitment she's brought to the project.


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I haven't called anyone an "old fogie".  It is an obvious fact that old people are more likely to die generally. By the time you are in your eighties and nineties the odds of death are remarkably high. Covid makes that more likely. This makes covid unlike some other mass infections. During the polio outbreak in the 1950's , for example, the young were affected more than the old. Patrick Cockburn · Diary: The 1956 Polio Epidemic · LRB 7 May 2020
> 
> I fully accept that not allowing children to attend school for a few weeks was a proportionate response to the peak of the epidemic. We have now passed that peak and the risk/ harm balance decisions that are taken in all areas of life need to be reviewed. I am yet to be convinced, despite the bluster from some, that it is better for children to not be given the opportunity to attend their schools.


I think the main point the unions are making is once this can be evidenced, so do they.


----------



## kenny g (May 19, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I think the main point the unions are making is once this can be evidenced, so do they.


The suggestion by some here appears to be that people who suggest schools should re-open are witting or unwitting dupes of a tory plot to drive people back to work via school re-openings and therefore heartless as they are willing to sacrifice the elderly. 
Obviously, if people leave their homes, in the short term more people will die. Even if it be by increased road traffic. This doesn't make all proponents of school re-openings fools or heartless. It just means  people have different ways of looking at risk. I would argue that mine is fairer and more balanced than those who want children to be kept out of school for what is becoming an extended period.


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> The suggestion by some here appears to be that people who suggest schools should re-open are witting or unwitting dupes of a tory plot to drive people back to work via school re-openings and therefore heartless as they are willing to sacrifice the elderly.
> Obviously, if people leave their homes, in the short term more people will die. Even if it be by increased road traffic. This doesn't make all proponents of school re-openings fools or heartless. It just means  people have different ways of looking at risk. I would argue that mine is fairer and more balanced than those who want children to be kept out of school for what is becoming an extended period.


Students will not be returning to full time school with their classes and teachers. The benefits for these students for only 6 or 7 weeks of school is not that great, perhaps one day a week like in Germany, especially when weighed up against the risk. Most European countries and North America would be starting their summer holidays anyway by now. 
Many of the most vulnerable will not be going back to school for many reasons, to name but a few: They are medically vulnerable and still shielding, it is not compulsory, the government has removed statutory rights for support for the most vulnerable and parents are being told that violent students, incontinent students, etc will not be supported in the ways that keep them safe.


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

Even leaving my own views aside for a moment, I know of school leaders - who are desperate to get their schools fully open and who are no friends of the Unions - tearing their hair out at Johnson's announcements. They know there is no way they can do even this limited reopening "safely" and that "getting back to normal" is not on the table, at all.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2020)

kenny g said:


> The suggestion by some here appears to be that people who suggest schools should re-open are witting or unwitting dupes of a tory plot to drive people back to work via school re-openings and therefore heartless as they are willing to sacrifice the elderly.




You seem simply too dishonest to have this conversation with. Why is that? Why are you ignoring what has already happened?

If people are pointing to Tory policies and rhetoric erroneously do point that out?  Cos this some suggest that others suggest that Tory voters suggest nonsense is a waste of all of our time.



> Obviously, if people leave their homes, in the short term more people will die. Even if it be by increased road traffic. This doesn't make all proponents of school re-openings fools or heartless. It just means  people have different ways of looking at risk. I would argue that mine is fairer and more balanced than those who want children to be kept out of school for what is becoming an extended period.



You are arguing this because you have weighed up the risk and don't fear you and yours dying. If not, your position makes no sense whatsoever.


----------



## ska invita (May 19, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The London Evening Standard this evening.
> Edited by Osbourne. Its about breaking the Unions.View attachment 213572


tbf there is pressure on Starmer to come off the fence....


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

Also worth noting, that even at the best of times this arse end of the Summer term is not the most "productive" academically. The idea that getting some students from some year groups back for some days over the remaining few weeks to often not be taught by subject specialists will somehow prevent the achievement gap further widening is utter fantasy.

(There are benefits for the kids in going back, many benefits, but Education with a big E isn't one of them)


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2020)

I'm wondering, a lot, whether the current union-bashing by the Mail (and now by the Standard) isn't hugely misjudging the mood of a whole lot of parents?

Because I'm getting much more of an impression that a very large number of parents really do not want to send their children back to school unless safety at school can be guarenteed.

Which in June at least, it simply can't be, so soon.

So who are these Mailish headlines aimed at? 
Who is it that they're principally trying to make angry with the teaching unions? 
Grandparents will surely be just as concerned about safety at school as parents. 
And a lot of non-parents will fully understand safety worries, from the POV of their own workplaces.

There was brief talk upthread about possible rebellions against schools reopening prematurely -- I wouldn't be surprised if such rebellions end up much bigger and more widespread than expected.

Is this likely, do Urbans (with something at stake in all this) think?

(I appreciate I'm seeing this from the not-so-well-informed perspective of a non-parent/non-teacher, but I've probably learnt more from this thread about both parents/kids, and teachers/education, than I have from life and past education in general before all this!   )


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

Note too that the University of Cambridge, who one could reasonably assume represent the sort of standards that we should be aspiring to, have cancelled face to face lectures for the entirety of next academic year.


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm wondering, a lot, whether the current union-bashing by the Mail (and now by the Standard) isn't hugely misjudging the mood of a whole lot of parents?
> 
> Because I'm getting much more of an impression that a very large number of parents really do not want to send their children back to school unless safety at school can be guarenteed.
> 
> ...



A growing number of local authorities have said that they won't be reopening schools on June 1st.


----------



## nagapie (May 19, 2020)

chilango said:


> Also worth noting, that even at the best of times this arse end of the Summer term is not the most "productive" academically. The idea that getting some students from some year groups back for some days over the remaining few weeks to often not be taught by subject specialists will somehow prevent the achievement gap further widening is utter fantasy.
> 
> (There are benefits for the kids in going back, many benefits, but Education with a big E isn't one of them)


This is one of the things I was trying to say. In order to social distance and cover vulnerable staff, we will invite only small amounts of students in. They will get one day next term - one day is not worth even a tiny bit of risk - to be supervised by a teacher to do the online learning they would be doing at home.


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

nagapie said:


> This is one of the things I was trying to say. In order to social distance and cover vulnerable staff, we will invite only small amounts of students in. They will get one day next term - one day is not worth even a tiny bit of risk - to be supervised by a teacher to do the online learning they would be doing at home.



Yep. I sat in on a very long meeting the other day discussing exactly that. 

The kids are desperate to see each other though. Even for a day, from a distance. Do it in the fucking park though not a cramped school.


----------



## Indeliblelink (May 19, 2020)

chilango said:


> Note too that the University of Cambridge, who one could reasonably assume represent the sort of standards that we should be aspiring to, have cancelled face to face lectures for the entirety of next academic year.


So mass redundancies for the support staff that work there once the furlough scheme ends in October.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2020)

chilango said:


> A growing number of local authorities have said that they won't be reopening schools on June 1st.



I was starting to pick up on that as it goes -- it will be very interesting to see how many local authorities end up deciding this.


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

Indeliblelink said:


> So mass redundancies for the support staff that work there once the furlough scheme ends in October.



Structural adjustment .

The chance to make sweeping cuts that without a crisis they couldn't get away with.


----------



## ska invita (May 19, 2020)

Indeliblelink said:


> So mass redundancies for the support staff that work there once the furlough scheme ends in October.


i think its too early to presume the scheme will end...especially so as i would take a punt on there being a full on lockdown by november


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2020)

For non Londoners the Evening Standard is the London newspaper. Local news like Camden News Journal are more to the left. But Standard is the main paper.

Its not the Daily Mail. Its a good paper even if it is of the Right.  Under Osbourne as editor its become more explicity Conservative supporting. I do regard its front pages like one I posted as how the Tory government thinks. I sometimes read it to see how the enemy thinks.

The Boris government is using this crisis to push the Right agenda. They are politicising the health crisis.

They are using it to attack a Labour Mayor of London through the deal imposed on TFL.

Now they are using  getting children back in schools as way to attack the Labour party and Unions.

Its almost like they are using this health crisis to start a confrontation with the "left".

The Labour party so far has been asking the right questions and supporting the imo reasonable position of the Teaching Unions. My partner wants to go back to work. But she wants schools to be reopened in safe way. This right wing Boris government is not to be trusted with doing this.

So I see the Evening Standard front page as what the government thinks.

In the Standard article Tory MP / Chair of Education Select Committee says " Keir Starmer was supposed to have changed the Labour party-well this is the big test. If David Blunkett, Alan Johnson and Tony Blair recognise the importance of schools re opening Keir Starmer should speak out now"

IMO this is not about what I think of Starmer. Any Labour leader is going to get this.

There are posters here who deride posters like me for thinking this is all about a "Tory plot" , if only we could talk about reopening like "adults" or the "Left" are "risk averse".

Its clear to me the Tories are using this health crisis in clever way to pursue the class war.


----------



## Indeliblelink (May 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i think its too early to presume the scheme will end...especially so as i would take a punt on there being a full on lockdown by november


Possibly but I doubt it will continue at 80%, by then lots of people will have lost over a months salary if you add up all the 20%s, that's quite a chunk if you're struggling to afford rent/food.


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2020)

Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" is worth a quick read if you want to feel even worse about what's coming....


----------



## planetgeli (May 19, 2020)

The Tories and their string pullers are always pursuing a class war. And they will always do it in the most pernicious ways, like pretending to care about the fate of working class kids when it's their own policies which have put those working class kids where they are in the first place. There was some awful naive bollocks being floated when Johnson was in hospital about it being his Damascene moment, how nobody could go through that and not be changed.

Fuck that. These people are evil, didn't get where they are without being evil or through an evil bloodline. They will always use any situation to pursue their ideology. Using working class kids comes naturally to them. It's their reason for being.


----------



## Wilf (May 19, 2020)

chilango said:


> Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" is worth a quick read if you want to feel even worse about what's coming....


Aye, 'disaster capitism', good call. I should get back to my copy... oh, hang on, it's locked in my office at work.


----------



## ska invita (May 19, 2020)

She's doing lots of interviews about c19 and disaster capitalism at the moment

Here's one


----------



## Wilf (May 19, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> The Tories and their string pullers are always pursuing a class war. And they will always do it in the most pernicious ways, like pretending to care about the fate of working class kids when it's their own policies which have put those working class kids where they are in the first place. There was some awful naive bollocks being floated when Johnson was in hospital about it being his Damascene moment, how nobody could go through that and not be changed.
> 
> Fuck that. These people are evil, didn't get where they are without being evil or through an evil bloodline. They will always use any situation to pursue their ideology. Using working class kids comes naturally to them. It's their reason for being.


Yep, particularly about the non road to Damascus.  Those who are imagining a kinder world emerging from this are going to be disappointed.


----------



## 20Bees (May 19, 2020)

Are the unions representing only teaching staff? There are a lot of adults in a school who work in non-teaching roles - the office and kitchen staff, playground supervisors, caretaker and cleaners, the ‘lollipop lady’ (or man) stopping traffic... how many of them could refuse to risk going into school for it to be impossible to function?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2020)

BB2’s primary school has tonight sent an email with their plan; it is for reception and year 1 to return in a staged fashion with bubbles of ten kids and one teacher, for three or four hours a day. That is their proposal but they have sent a survey to see how many parents are up for that. It’s all quite fair, asking year 2 parents their views even though their kids are not in the frame, just to gauge the general mood. This is middle class heaven btw, the mood from our class WhatsApp is pretty much 50/50 to send in or keep away, albeit moot as we are year 2, some parents do also have year R kids. One set whom the mother is a secondary teacher and the dad a GP (told you it was middle class heaven!) have stated they would send both their year R and year 2 back if possible. We have indicated on the survey that we would send BB2 back, but on the WhatsApp we have stated what we have done but reserve the right to not send her in should year 2 be asked to return if we’re not comfortable at that time.


----------



## weepiper (May 19, 2020)

I can't remember who it was that said when they googled 'hippy school' the Edinburgh Steiner School was the first hit, but I personally know three guys who went to school there. One of them is known even now as Cosmic Jon.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 19, 2020)

20Bees said:


> Are the unions representing only teaching staff? There are a lot of adults in a school who work in non-teaching roles - the office and kitchen staff, playground supervisors, caretaker and cleaners, the ‘lollipop lady’ (or man) stopping traffic... how many of them could refuse to risk going into school for it to be impossible to function?



No, GMB, Unison etc represent support staff.


----------



## Gramsci (May 20, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> This is the risk assessment checklist drawn up by the unions incase anyone's interested (definitely illustrates how complex and complicated it is!) -
> 
> 
> https://www.gmb.org.uk/sites/default/files/12%20STEP%20GUIDANCE%20PRIMARY%20SCHOOLS%20REOPENING.pdf



Its rather unfortunate that this government didnt start a proper dialogue with Teachers through their representatives the Unions some time ago.

Then all the Tory instigated unpleasantness Im seeing now in right wing press would not have been necessary.

Unless the Boris led Tory government wanted a confrontation as part of their "centre right" agenda


----------



## Gramsci (May 20, 2020)

weepiper said:


> I can't remember who it was that said when they googled 'hippy school' the Edinburgh Steiner School was the first hit, but I personally know three guys who went to school there. One of them is known even now as Cosmic Jon.



Whats that got to do with the present discussion here?


----------



## Combustible (May 20, 2020)

kenny g said:


> I haven't called anyone an "old fogie".  It is an obvious fact that old people are more likely to die generally. By the time you are in your eighties and nineties the odds of death are remarkably high. Covid makes that more likely.



On average, a man who dies of Covid loses 13 years of their expected lifespan, a woman loses 11. Do you consider 13 years a "slight extension"?









						New study finds coronavirus can cut life span by 10 years or more
					

A study from the University of Glasgow tested the assumption those who died from COVID-19 would have died soon regardless of contracting the infection.




					thehill.com


----------



## Gramsci (May 20, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> BB2’s primary school has tonight sent an email with their plan; it is for reception and year 1 to return in a staged fashion with bubbles of ten kids and one teacher, for three or four hours a day. That is their proposal but they have sent a survey to see how many parents are up for that. It’s all quite fair, asking year 2 parents their views even though their kids are not in the frame, just to gauge the general mood. This is middle class heaven btw, the mood from our class WhatsApp is pretty much 50/50 to send in or keep away, albeit moot as we are year 2, some parents do also have year R kids. One set whom the mother is a secondary teacher and the dad a GP (told you it was middle class heaven!) have stated they would send both their year R and year 2 back if possible. We have indicated on the survey that we would send BB2 back, but on the WhatsApp we have stated what we have done but reserve the right to not send her in should year 2 be asked to return if we’re not comfortable at that time.



My partner school is torn is what I get the impression. Whether it is a State School or middle class private this opening schools on 1st June is being rushed. Boris decided it without even running the idea past state or private schools first. Its an awful lot of responsibility to dump on those who manage schools. The government line on re opening imo has been ambivalent. If it goes wrong for a particular school who will get blame? 

My partner is now in position of being concerned about her health and wanting to get back to the children.

She said to me today if schools were planned to open in September that would be fine. Give time to sort out how to do it. Also get more time to get a grip on the pandemic.

Impression I get is that a signifcant number of parents won't send children back in June. Unless pressured to do so. They will wait to September.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 20, 2020)

chilango said:


> Also worth noting, that even at the best of times this arse end of the Summer term is not the most "productive" academically. The idea that getting some students from some year groups back for some days over the remaining few weeks to often not be taught by subject specialists will somehow prevent the achievement gap further widening is utter fantasy.
> 
> (There are benefits for the kids in going back, many benefits, but Education with a big E isn't one of them)


Indeed as krink said earlier - yes in an ideal world you be teaching in class, but *educationally* it really would not be the end of the world to students teaching and learning if they do not go back before September.


chilango said:


> Note too that the University of Cambridge, who one could reasonably assume represent the sort of standards that we should be aspiring to, have cancelled face to face lectures for the entirety of next academic year.


Yes although as Indeliblelink points out that in some ways that is also an attack on workers - move learning online and it makes it more difficult for workers to withdraw their labour.

(Although from an pedagogical perspective I'm strongly in favour flipped classrooms - as always the key is who is doing the driving and workers power)


----------



## kebabking (May 20, 2020)

Anecdotal stuff....

At the kids school, rural Worcestershire with kids from both middle and working class backgrounds, the Y1/reception 'offer' has had a 25% take up rate, while Y6 offer has had a 50% take up rate.

In Mrs K's school, urban West Midlands with a similar mix, but with more NHS workers, the Y6 offer got a 60% take up, but they aren't offering Y1 and reception. They do have far more key worker kids in though.

Staff in both deeply unhappy.


----------



## LDC (May 20, 2020)

chilango said:


> Note too that the University of Cambridge, who one could reasonably assume represent the sort of standards that we should be aspiring to, have cancelled face to face lectures for the entirety of next academic year.



As in October 2020 to 2021?! chilango

A lecturer I know at UCL has been told January 2021 for any face-to-face at the earliest.


----------



## chilango (May 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> As in October 2020 to 2021?! chilango











						Cambridge University moves all lectures online until summer 2021
					

Institution first to announce virtual teaching for next academic year




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 20, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Is this likely, do Urbans (with something at stake in all this) think?



We all have a stake in this. But as someone who has already lost my job due to school closures, I think the schools have to stay closed until, at the very earliest, there is robust contact tracing and testing in place. To help kids, parents, schools and other kid-related services plan properly for the future it would make more sense to say no school for the rest of the academic year.

To give a subset of kids the chance to go back to (a mutilated version of) school only to then take even that away again would do more harm than good from a socialisation, development point of view. Better to use what wiggle room there is to let kids socialise more outside school, let parents share childcare, home schooling etc.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> As in October 2020 to 2021?! chilango
> 
> A lecturer I know at UCL has been told January 2021 for any face-to-face at the earliest.



They said for the entire academic year. But they reserve the right to change their minds if the chaos changes. But it’s not a big sciencey place, so they’ll probably go with what Trump decrees...


----------



## kenny g (May 20, 2020)

chilango said:


> Note too that the University of Cambridge, who one could reasonably assume represent the sort of standards that we should be aspiring to, have cancelled face to face lectures for the entirety of next academic year.



Don't think we should take too much notice of the practices of Eton and Cambridge in this context. Cambridge is probably more than happy to have their students kept in front of laptops whilst the dons can devote themselves to research.


----------



## Poot (May 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> We all have a stake in this. But as someone who has already lost my job due to school closures, I think the schools have to stay closed until, at the very earliest, there is robust contact tracing and testing in place. To help kids, parents, schools and other kid-related services plan properly for the future it would make more sense to say no school for the rest of the academic year.
> 
> To give a subset of kids the chance to go back to (a mutlilated version of) school only to then take even that away again would do more harm than good from a socialisation, development point of view. Better to use what wiggle room there is to let kids socialise more outside school, let parents share childcare, home schooling etc.


Yes. Everybody has a stake in this. Not least because when the schools go back perceptions will change about how safe everything is. My friends are other mums whose children are at school with my kids. My son will want to see his girlfriend in another school and hang out with his mates. These things may not be permitted but they're definitely going to happen. And then Granny hears about it and wants a piece of the action. This might affect everyone. It's going to be impossible to control the mission creep.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 20, 2020)

William of Walworth as for your question about the union-bashing news articles I'm not sure there's a particular target audience, save maybe Starmer himself. The basic tory position on all this is to let the virus run, as long as there are garden centres open. It might not make any sense for working class folk to support that but that doesn't mean that some won't support it anyway. And the mail has a sufficiently loyal readership that they'll keep reading it even if there's a headline or two they disagree with. The anti-union slant is probably going to go down better than the actual 'back-to-school, let's go all out for a second peak' content.


----------



## chilango (May 20, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Don't think we should take too much notice of the practices of Eton and Cambridge in this context. Cambridge is probably more than happy to have their students kept in front of laptops whilst the dons can devote themselves to research.



It was difficult to demonstrate cynicism in text. 

The dominant narrative in education is that we should all be aspiring to model ourselves on the elite. 

Y'know, the "soft tyranny of low expectations" and all that?

Fits in with the values of individualized meritocracy that they push.

It's all bollocks of course, but has been effective bollocks.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 20, 2020)

Poot said:


> Yes. Everybody has a stake in this. Not least because when the schools go back perceptions will change about how safe everything is. My friends are other mums whose children are at school with my kids. My son will want to see his girlfriend in another school and hang out with his mates. These things may not be permitted but they're definitely going to happen. And then Granny hears about it and wants a piece of the action. This might affect everyone. It's going to be impossible to control the mission creep.



And the measures they're bringing in are Monty Python esque absurdities dreamt up by people who have likely never met a child, or indeed any size human being.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Don't think we should take too much notice of the practices of Eton and Cambridge in this context. Cambridge is probably more than happy to have their students kept in front of laptops whilst the dons can devote themselves to research.



Ah yes...the 'do as they say, not as they do' argument.


----------



## chilango (May 20, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm wondering, a lot, whether the current union-bashing by the Mail (and now by the Standard) isn't hugely misjudging the mood of a whole lot of parents?
> 
> Because I'm getting much more of an impression that a very large number of parents really do not want to send their children back to school unless safety at school can be guarenteed.
> 
> ...



Partially at least, it will be aimed at all the other workers being forced back to work right now.

If they have to do it, why shouldn't the teachers?


----------



## MickiQ (May 20, 2020)

The claim that keeping primary schoolers out until September will hurt their life chances is just plain daft, the main thing they learn at primary is how to read and write, a basic grasp of arithmetic and above all else how to sit still and pay attention.  Apart possibly from Y6's who will go up to  secondary they might as well leave them out for the rest of the year.
The same for the first three years of secondary school letting them miss a few weeks won't harm them, If it was all about the kids education then they should focus on getting Y10-Y13 back and maybe even extending the school year to allow Y11 and 13 to take their exams. 
Of course teenagers don't need Mum/Dad to stay off work so the focus is on getting primaries back as a childminding service. 
This view was soundly reinforced by Gove's stumbling on the box a few days back, Man's a cunt but he's far too intelligent to fall for his own bullshit and he know's that is what it is.
Trying to get the economy running again is important, there are non-educational reasons for getting especially vulnerable and disadvantaged kids back to school but their attempt to sell it as being about the kids future and their education is falling flat. They can't even be honest even when that is clearly the best thing to be.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 20, 2020)

chilango said:


> Partially at least, it will be aimed at all the other workers being forced back to work right now.
> 
> If they have to do it, why shouldn't the teachers?



That makes a lot more sense from the Mail's/Tories' point of view 

I still think, though, that pushing schools to reopen prematurely will provoke a lot of pissed-offness among *plenty* of parents, as well as among teachers and school staff. 
Quite rightly so.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 20, 2020)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Is this likely, do Urbans (*with something at stake in all this*) think?





SpookyFrank said:


> *We all have a stake in thi*s.






			
				Poot said:
			
		

> Yes. *Everybody has a stake in this. *


Yes, absolutely, sorry.
I should have said direct stake originally, but in any case the impact is far wider than just for parents/carers/pupils and for school staff, as plenty have pointed out in this thread.




			
				Spooky Frank said:
			
		

> But as someone who has already lost my job due to school closures, I think the schools have to stay closed until, at the very earliest, there is robust contact tracing and testing in place. To help kids, parents, schools and other kid-related services plan properly for the future it would make more sense to say no school for the rest of the academic year.
> To give a subset of kids the chance to go back to (a mutlilated version of) school only to then take even that away again would do more harm than good from a socialisation, development point of view. Better to use what wiggle room there is to let kids socialise more outside school, let parents share childcare, home schooling etc.






			
				Poot said:
			
		

> Not least because when the schools go back perceptions will change about how safe everything is. My friends are other mums whose children are at school with my kids. My son will want to see his girlfriend in another school and hang out with his mates. These things may not be permitted but they're definitely going to happen. And then Granny hears about it and wants a piece of the action. This might affect everyone. It's going to be impossible to control the mission creep.



All of that makes a whole lot of sense even to a non-parent like me! 
This is a really informative thread ......


----------



## frogwoman (May 20, 2020)

Are there activities/staggered catch up type things that kids can do in the summer at school short of fully opening? I don't know much about schools so this might be a stupid question, but just thinking about the concerns about social interaction etc.


----------



## planetgeli (May 20, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Are there activities/staggered catch up type things that kids can do in the summer at school short of fully opening? I don't know much about schools so this might be a stupid question, but just thinking about the concerns about social interaction etc.



Who would staff this? Teachers and ancillary staff working through their holidays?


----------



## frogwoman (May 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Who would staff this? Teachers and ancillary staff working through their holidays?



Yeah good point. I have no idea tbh. I was asking whether it was possible rather than suggesting it


----------



## Mattym (May 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Who would staff this? Teachers and ancillary staff working through their holidays?



Has there been anything said formally about what happens to vulnerable/key worker kids etc during the Summer holidays? I genuinely don't recall having seen anything about it, but our school was open for Easter holidays. So, it does make me wonder what the plan is.

It might be down to individual schools and whether they can staff it.

The other thing is my line manager has been on to me about my thoughts as to how we are going to get the Year 10 pupils to catch up to their target grades. My thought- you ditch that target grade.


----------



## spanglechick (May 20, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The claim that keeping primary schoolers out until September will hurt their life chances is just plain daft, the main thing they learn at primary is how to read and write, a basic grasp of arithmetic and above all else how to sit still and pay attention.  Apart possibly from Y6's who will go up to  secondary they might as well leave them out for the rest of the year.
> The same for the first three years of secondary school letting them miss a few weeks won't harm them, If it was all about the kids education then they should focus on getting Y10-Y13 back and maybe even extending the school year to allow Y11 and 13 to take their exams.
> Of course teenagers don't need Mum/Dad to stay off work so the focus is on getting primaries back as a childminding service.
> This view was soundly reinforced by Gove's stumbling on the box a few days back, Man's a cunt but he's far too intelligent to fall for his own bullshit and he know's that is what it is.
> Trying to get the economy running again is important, there are non-educational reasons for getting especially vulnerable and disadvantaged kids back to school but their attempt to sell it as being about the kids future and their education is falling flat. They can't even be honest even when that is clearly the best thing to be.


The Y11&13 exams were cancelled months ago.  Bringing them back now would be enormously unfair.


----------



## chilango (May 20, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> The Y11&13 exams were cancelled months ago.  Bringing them back now would be enormously unfair.



...and pointless.


----------



## planetgeli (May 20, 2020)

Mattym said:


> Has there been anything said formally about what happens to vulnerable/key worker kids etc during the Summer holidays? I genuinely don't recall having seen anything about it, but our school was open for Easter holidays. So, it does make me wonder what the plan is.



I haven't seen anything that deals with our vulnerable kids. The hubs were open through the holidays but they aren't for our kids as they are considered mainstream and our kids have been removed from mainstream. Our kids are the most vulnerable kids and for all the bluster about caring for those who are vulnerable we haven't seen or been told anything with regards to PRU pupils.

So no change there then.


----------



## kebabking (May 20, 2020)

Our PRU's have been open as, kind of, normal. Same with special schools.

Mrs K's school isn't open during this coming halfterm, but was over Easter. No idea about summer, the head is unlikely to go for it.


----------



## Gramsci (May 20, 2020)

On the mission creep Poot talks about. 

Im seeing this happening in Lambeth. The messages the Government has being given out are giving some impression the lockdown is finishing. Cycle through local park every day. Social distancing is reducing. Now its groups of people together having picnics.

As has been said a potential divide is being made between those who want lockdown and those who don't. I don't think this is an accident on the Governments part.


----------



## 8ball (May 20, 2020)

A lot busier today where I live.  Like after last Wednesday a lot of places gave themselves a week to sort some stuff.


----------



## 8ball (May 20, 2020)

[Poot As has been said a potential divide is being made between those who want lockdown and those who don't. I don't think this is an accident on the Governments part.
[/QUOTE]

I think the Government have just been capitalising on what the media (new and old) have done for them.


----------



## philosophical (May 20, 2020)

The concept of school holidays being for both teachers and students is one to be tested.
Contractually teachers are employed for 198 days a year and indeed when docked pay for strike action it is one 198th of annual pay, not one 365th of annual pay as one might assume.
Additionally there is often a lot of stuff that happens in the 'holidays' such as taking kids away for a week, as well as the usual mound of preparatory work.
It is a bit of a grey area actually, including when you factor in that the kids need a break as well.
If you want to irritate a teacher tell them they have a cushy job with long 'paid' holidays.
If it was such a cushy job one might ask why there are continual adverts for people to 'get into teaching/every lesson shapes a life'.


----------



## planetgeli (May 20, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Our PRU's have been open as, kind of, normal. Same with special schools.
> 
> Mrs K's school isn't open during this coming halfterm, but was over Easter. No idea about summer, the head is unlikely to go for it.



Yes, England is different. FTR, because I've searched, there are only 'advisory' documents, not statutory, from people like ESTYN (our equivalent of OFSTED) about 'digital home learning'. In practise? Our kids were all told they could have some form of digital device (laptop, chromebook etc) about 3-4 weeks ago. Have these materialised? Have they fuck.

As the vast majority of our pupils do little work anyway, this is not actually a major problem. The main concern is their safeguarding and wellbeing and on this score they are being closely monitored daily via phone and some home visits when deemed necessary.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 20, 2020)

8ball said:


> Does anyone know yet why BAME groups have been hit harder?
> 
> I wasn't sure whether it was all down to health/social inequalities and BAME groups being a little more likely to be key workers.



Given the number of BAME doctors who have died, those factors may be of significance, but not the complete answer.

It is a strange illness this.


----------



## 8ball (May 20, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Given the number of BAME doctors who have died, those factors may be of significance, but not the complete answer.
> 
> It is a strange illness this.



Agreed.  I wondered whether there might be a vitamin D-related component, but I can't imagine that is more than a very small part of it.


----------



## MickiQ (May 20, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> The Y11&13 exams were cancelled months ago.  Bringing them back now would be enormously unfair.


Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.


----------



## Shechemite (May 20, 2020)

chilango said:


> Partially at least, it will be aimed at all the other workers being forced back to work right now.
> 
> If they have to do it, why shouldn't the teachers?



yep


----------



## 8ball (May 20, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
> At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.



It’s just a social sorting mechanism anyway.  The middle classes will pay for private tutoring to get their kids the required grades and a decade later you get Doctors that kill people.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 20, 2020)

My college just confirmed not returning this academic year. 
Possibly  no returning  this  calendar  year with a max capacity of the building  at 40% of normal.

Looks like we will be spending June  doing  a  lot  of  distance learning stuff.


----------



## clicker (May 20, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
> At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.


Perhaps they could've postponed gcses and a levels to the autumn term. Universities could change their academic year to Jan to Dec.

I actually think awarding grades without the big final examination will be preferable to the majority of students and beneficial to those who don't perform great in an exam situation.

I'd hope there is some sort of appeal system, there has to be? Equally I'd hope students hell bent on physically sitting an exam, get the chance to do so...maybe in Autumn. I also hope those awarding the grades fully make allowances and if anything, mark up. Schools and colleges aren't going to want to find themselves knee deep in appeals when they do open.

The current exam system disadvantages lots of students. They're tested more than most students abroad. I'm not convinced the rigorous regime produces long term results. 
Vocational qualifications should carry the same weight as non vocational. What are we currently relying on to keep society functioning? On the whole, probably what would be considered unskilled labour.

Time to overhaul the system?


----------



## Mattym (May 20, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Giving them estimated grades isn't particularly fair either given that there is no appeal against them (unless that has changed) Mrs Q reckons she gets asked a couple of times each year if she will go through a GCSE paper by a parent who thinks that their sprog hasn't got the marks they should. Certainly I remember last year she was really pleased that she found a couple of marks that on appeal was enough to boost the kid from a 3 to 4 and from a fail to a pass.
> At the other end of the scale we have our own 18 year old smartalec who is expected to and will probably get top grades, She's miffed that she can't prove she has earned them.



A retake is the only way to change them. I am really annoyed that there is no appeal process, particularly because our subject has gone from a 'mandatory' subject last year to one of 'choice' this year.  Results would have been much better but OFQUAL are basing them on historic data, so am worried some of our pupils won't get what they deserve.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2020)

No appeal process. Retake in the autumn if not happy and if grades improve you start college or uni a year late. So much for the brouhaha about 5 years olds missing a few weeks worth of finger painting...

BB1’s head sent an email last week saying that a number of parents had been emailing various teachers saying how much work their little darlings had done since the mocks and even including testimonials from various private tutors; head said that this is strictly forbidden and every one of these mails will be passed to the exam board who will be taking a dim view, as per his mail he sent back in March...


----------



## planetgeli (May 20, 2020)

clicker said:


> Vocational qualifications should carry the same weight as non vocational.
> 
> Time to overhaul the system?



Indeed. The national curriculum simply doesn't work for a lot of pupils who are forced into failure by compulsory examinations and courses in certain subjects. In Wales we are supposed to be moving towards Donaldson's curriculum next year but few of the teachers I've met really understand it and even fewer are in favour (though I am, kind of, if it can be implemented properly).

At the moment a lot of pupils are wasting their time in years 10 and 11 doing stuff they see no point in and have little ability at. League tables were the worst thing to happen to education in a generation or more. We need an overhaul that really looks after those pupils by implementing a vocational timetable that could run alongside the basic national curriculum with no loss to anyone and much gain to some.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 20, 2020)

The Guardian -



> More local authorities have expressed doubts about the government’s plan to reopen primary schools for reception and year 6 pupils on 1 June.
> *Kirklees council,* in West Yorkshire, says it will be guided by the evidence not politics.
> Richard Watts, the leader of the *London borough of Islington* said: “We don’t support rushing to hit an arbitrary target set by ministers.”
> *North Yorkshire county council* says it is up to schools to decide whether it is safe to reopen.
> *Waltham Forest council* takes a similar approach.


----------



## Raheem (May 20, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> The Guardian -


Kirklees seem to be saying they will leave it up to individual schools, which is terrible fence-sitting and puts schools in a position where some parents will be angry at them whatever they do.


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## Wilf (May 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Kirklees seem to be saying they will leave it up to individual schools, which is terrible fence-sitting and puts schools in a position where some parents will be angry at them whatever they do.


Yep, that sounds a bit spineless.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 20, 2020)

There's a more comprehensive list, including the differing LA responses, here -









						English schools reopening: which councils will meet 1 June deadline?
					

What councils up and down the country are advising their schools, teachers and parents




					www.theguardian.com
				




ETA - Raheem - I'm wondering if some of that is down to how much authority la's actually have.  

That's only come to mind because of a reply I had a couple of weeks back from one of my (very good) local union heads, which pointed to the fact that even where la's were onside 'in theory governors are responsible and can basically choose any practises they like' - so I guess there may be some less obvious reasons for the different messages, too and I'm mostly just really pleased that any of them are coming out against a set June 1st start date.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Indeed. The national curriculum simply doesn't work for a lot of pupils who are forced into failure by compulsory examinations and courses in certain subjects. In Wales we are supposed to be moving towards Donaldson's curriculum next year but few of the teachers I've met really understand it and even fewer are in favour (though I am, kind of, if it can be implemented properly).
> 
> At the moment a lot of pupils are wasting their time in years 10 and 11 doing stuff they see no point in and have little ability at. League tables were the worst thing to happen to education in a generation or more. We need an overhaul that really looks after those pupils by implementing a vocational timetable that could run alongside the basic national curriculum with no loss to anyone and much gain to some.



I work in a white collar industry that requires pretty much zero qualifications to get in to. As a result you get a wide range of talents passing through. But to see CVs from people claiming to have a GCSE in Iniglish and so on it does make me think that the relentless push towards office (call centre) work is any good. You can often tell if a kid is not academic at 11 or 12 and surely if they are up for it steering them to a skill or skills they can master will see them in better stead?


----------



## alex_ (May 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Kirklees seem to be saying they will leave it up to individual schools, which is terrible fence-sitting and puts schools in a position where some parents will be angry at them whatever they do.



teachers who’s kids aren’t at their school could be properly screwed, or patents with kids at multiple schools


----------



## Glitter (May 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Kirklees seem to be saying they will leave it up to individual schools, which is terrible fence-sitting and puts schools in a position where some parents will be angry at them whatever they do.



Calderdale next door have said emphatically not.


----------



## Thora (May 20, 2020)

alex_ said:


> teachers who’s kids aren’t at their school could be properly screwed, or patents with kids at multiple schools


Only some years are going back and most are going part time, so it's not going to be any good as childcare for most people.

Teachers' kids will still be eligible for key worker places though even if the school doesn't open for other children.


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## sheothebudworths (May 20, 2020)

Glitter said:


> Calderdale next door have said emphatically not.



They're 'advising' schools not to open - Keeping schools safe during COVID-19 - like I say, I think that's about the best la's can actually do because it IS down to the individual schools, ultimately.


----------



## chilango (May 20, 2020)

The bottom line, as far as I'm aware, is that it is Head teachers and Governors who make the final call on whether to open or not.


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2020)

chilango said:


> The bottom line, as far as I'm aware, is that it is Head teachers and Governors who make the final call on whether to open or not.


For non-academy schools there's an issue around the ultimate employer status of the LA and, it sounded from the short snatch i heard this morning on the radio, as if some Governing bodies are less than certain that they want to be held responsible for putting staff in harms way. I presume this all boils down to the risk of litigation.


----------



## MickiQ (May 20, 2020)

brogdale said:


> For non-academy schools there's an issue around the ultimate employer status of the LA and, it sounded from the short snatch i heard this morning on the radio, as if some Governing bodies are less than certain that they want to be held responsible for putting staff in harms way. I presume this all boils down to the risk of litigation.


Fair enough, There's nowt like fear of the consequences coming back to bite them to make people decide not do something stupid.


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## Thora (May 20, 2020)

Looks like there are so few children planning to go back to my son’s school in June that initially at least class sizes will be nearer 5 than 15.


----------



## Wilf (May 20, 2020)

Proper clusterfuck this, with added political grandstanding by the government, mail etc. It's just so obvious in a situation where people, literally, fear for their lives and those of their loved ones, that you try to build a consensus and build in a proper _process_.


----------



## kenny g (May 20, 2020)

brogdale said:


> For non-academy schools there's an issue around the ultimate employer status of the LA and, it sounded from the short snatch i heard this morning on the radio, as if some Governing bodies are less than certain that they want to be held responsible for putting staff in harms way. I presume this all boils down to the risk of litigation.


Asbestos?


----------



## Gramsci (May 20, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I work in a white collar industry that requires pretty much zero qualifications to get in to. As a result you get a wide range of talents passing through. But to see CVs from people claiming to have a GCSE in Iniglish and so on it does make me think that the relentless push towards office (call centre) work is any good. You can often tell if a kid is not academic at 11 or 12 and surely if they are up for it steering them to a skill or skills they can master will see them in better stead?



Im going to have to disagree with this.

Im of that age where I went through school system that did "steer" kids. It was the 11plus exam. 

If you passed you went to "academic" grammer if you failed you went to Secondary Modern.

I have a real problem with this concept of a split between academic and non academic learning. My experience is that it was class based. And the split between the two was to reproduce the class system.

My primary school was in working class area. The kids I went to school with expected to leave school as soon as possible to get apprenticeship in Dockyard or become a Fisherman. In 60s 70s before Thatcher these were high status jobs in local community. Thats before the working class were written off in 80s.

( and it was boys. Work was for men and women were housewives who did a bit of part time work.)

The school system I went to assumed this was just the order of things.

Myself being square peg me would have liked both. Academic and skills. I dont see why they can't ovverlap

So since then Ive always been wary of ideas of funneling some kids into "skill" based education.


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## nagapie (May 20, 2020)

Yes, a well rounded education for everyone minus exams is best.


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## brogdale (May 20, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Asbestos?


A very serious H&S issue in schools (colleague of mine died of a very aggressive lung cancer after teaching for 2 decades in a room with asbestos boarding that he stuck drawing pins in & out of)...but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make wrt Covid.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 21, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Im going to have to disagree with this.
> 
> Im of that age where I went through school system that did "steer" kids. It was the 11plus exam.
> 
> ...



Think you missed the bit where I said, “If they’re up for it.”

The relentless drive towards exams, pushing all kids down an academic path when clearly not all people are suited to it is not helpful. Now they can’t leave school at 15 or 16 any more, they have to stick around until 18 or prove they are doing something else. All this every child matters liberal shit just pushes many kids away. This is fucking bitter personal experience talking here, btw, so maybe judgement is clouded. I do understand that setting a kid’s future at 11+ was crap, but telling them they can be a bank manager when they still need their fingers to do maths at 13, yet can strip an engine without breaking a sweat seems to me to be doing a disservice to kids.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> A very serious H&S issue in schools (colleague of mine died of a very aggressive lung cancer after teaching for 2 decades in a room with asbestos boarding that he stuck drawing pins in & out of)...but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make wrt Covid.



Back when I was in college as a student (late 90s) we were doing soldering in class and  the teacher asked us to use soldering boards.  I asked  what the boards were made  of and the teacher replied "asbestos". I thought for a second and  then  asked  the follow up "Do you mean like  'asbestos'  asbestos or is there some form of it  that is  safe to use?" the teacher  said they didn't know  but would ask.  Next week  the  teacher  returned  and said  we were to wet the soldering boards  before use.

I  never fucking touched  one again.


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## Edie (May 21, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Think you missed the bit where I said, “If they’re up for it.”
> 
> The relentless drive towards exams, pushing all kids down an academic path when clearly not all people are suited to it is not helpful. Now they can’t leave school at 15 or 16 any more, they have to stick around until 18 or prove they are doing something else. All this every child matters liberal shit just pushes many kids away. This is fucking bitter personal experience talking here, btw, so maybe judgement is clouded. I do understand that setting a kid’s future at 11+ was crap, but telling them they can be a bank manager when they still need their fingers to do maths at 13, yet can strip an engine without breaking a sweat seems to me to be doing a disservice to kids.


My sons in this category. It’s round peg square hole. In Leeds they have started offering a technical education again, which you can do from 14. His grandad was an apprentice, his dad started his own business, he’ll do the same.


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## kenny g (May 21, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Back when I was in college as a student (late 90s) we were doing soldering in class and  the teacher asked us to use soldering boards.  I asked  what the boards were made  of and the teacher replied "asbestos". I thought for a second and  then  asked  the follow up "Do you mean like  'asbestos'  asbestos or is there some form of it  that is  safe to use?" the teacher  said they didn't know  but would ask.  Next week  the  teacher  returned  and said  we were to wet the soldering boards  before use.
> 
> I  never fucking touched  one again.



Yep, we used the same. Brings back memories. Also ironing board at home had asbestos mat with fibres coming off it.  My point was that governing bodies haven't been closing down schools despite the known asbestos risks.


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## ska invita (May 21, 2020)

i presume this is true


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## Raheem (May 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i presume this is true


Johnson denied it, didn't he?


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## kenny g (May 21, 2020)

Well the daughter of which he dare not speak goes to a non private school of sorts. But you would have to ask his predecessor about that.


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## Indeliblelink (May 21, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Yep, we used the same. Brings back memories. Also ironing board at home had asbestos mat with fibres coming off it.  My point was that governing bodies haven't been closing down schools despite the known asbestos risks.


Couple of years ago they discovered that loads of schools were using crappy Chinese imported heat proof gauze mats for use with bunsen burners that had asbestos in them.
Pretty much every school in the UK had to replace theirs, it didn't raise too many headlines and no schools were closed AFAIK despite the fact many science labs that pupils had been using for years were contaminated by asbestos . In most cases support staff had to clear them away without asbestos removal training.








						Bunsen burner gauze mats containing asbestos in schools across UK, officials reveal
					

Government writes urgent letter to all secondary schools and colleges advising them to ‘remove and dispose of potentially hazardous mesh gauze used in science lessons’




					www.independent.co.uk


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## Sweet FA (May 21, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> every child matters liberal shit just pushes many kids away


Really? You know what that was in response to? Children's lives have been saved by responses to the ECM doc. (I'm not defending it 100% obviously but to dismiss it completely as liberal shit is to underestimate the effect it had (just ime, ymmv etc)). 

I've stayed away from thread because I was pretty pissed off (the Daily Mail headline thing + some terrible antisocial cuntery on here basically). Like most YR/1/6 teachers though, I'll be back in from June 1 but it'll probably be alright 

(The asbestos thing is pretty widespread - we were going to have our school hall windows replaced, necessitating the roof coming off (no, me neither); turns out everything's made of asbestos. The current plan is basically: hold your breath, back away slowly, replace the ceiling tiles and never speak of this again. There are loads of schools in the same position.)


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 21, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> Really? You know what that was in response to?




No. Guessing it is something terrible like Baby P. And perhaps I am using it wrongly as an example of the thinking that every kid can be a white collar worker which seems very much to be the way education has been pushing kids the last two decades. Perhaps that is the pushback against 11+, but the endless stream of kids I have witnessed coming for jobs in my industry who can’t do mental maths or basic English, let alone political geography is astonishing. Someone is telling them that they should be going for these jobs, when a skill/trade would see them much better off. It’s depressing.


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## weepiper (May 21, 2020)

Teachers to go back in June in Scotland to prepare for kids coming back at the start of the new term in August and to help arrange things for a new way of teaching. It's expected that the kids will only be back part time even then and will still work from home some of the time.









						Coronavirus: Scottish schools to reopen in August
					

Staff will return to schools next month to prepare for "a different model of learning" after the summer holidays.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## planetgeli (May 21, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No. Guessing it is something terrible like Baby P. And perhaps I am using it wrongly as an example of the thinking that every kid can be a white collar worker which seems very much to be the way education has been pushing kids the last two decades. Perhaps that is the pushback against 11+, but the endless stream of kids I have witnessed coming for jobs in my industry who can’t do mental maths or basic English, let alone political geography is astonishing. Someone is telling them that they should be going for these jobs, when a skill/trade would see them much better off. It’s depressing.



I think your criticism of ECM was totally valid. I don't believe for a minute you were slagging off the obvious safeguarding benefits and multi-agency co-operation that has come about because of it. But that, even though it was an excellent step forward, is not wholly what ECM was supposed to be about. Health and safety are only two aspects of it. Two of the other five were to make a positive contribution and achieve economic well-being. These are sadly let down by the push for the national curriculum and league tables becoming what school is about. Plenty of kids are falling through this supposed economic safety net by being failed in schools exactly the way you say they are. Pupils can get into vocational training at college before 16 but it's bloody hard a lot of the time to achieve this. All of our pupils (in my school) would benefit from such a move. We've managed to get one in at 15. In three years I've been there.


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## Thora (May 21, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Teachers to go back in June in Scotland to prepare for kids coming back at the start of the new term in August and to help arrange things for a new way of teaching. It's expected that the kids will only be back part time even then and will still work from home some of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the thing that makes be unsure about holding off sending them in June because school's going to be weird/different - it will still be weird/different in August or September.

I spoke to my kid's headteacher about returning today and feel fairly reassured about their plans.  It _is_ going to be different - they're planning classes of 10-12 with a teacher and ta and it's going to be pretty "traditional" with lots of individual work and kids sitting at their own desk (and only 2 9am-3pm days a week offered) but maybe school is just going to be like this for the next however long.

I wonder if this will cause lots of parents to delay/defer their 4 year olds starting Reception and keep them in nursery for an extra year though if all the social distancing stuff only starts in schools.


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## Gramsci (May 21, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Think you missed the bit where I said, “If they’re up for it.”
> 
> The relentless drive towards exams, pushing all kids down an academic path when clearly not all people are suited to it is not helpful. Now they can’t leave school at 15 or 16 any more, they have to stick around until 18 or prove they are doing something else. All this every child matters liberal shit just pushes many kids away. This is fucking bitter personal experience talking here, btw, so maybe judgement is clouded. I do understand that setting a kid’s future at 11+ was crap, but telling them they can be a bank manager when they still need their fingers to do maths at 13, yet can strip an engine without breaking a sweat seems to me to be doing a disservice to kids.



One of my  memories of primary school was doing the 11 plus. When we got the results ( I passed to the annoyance of one teacher) I remember one girl in my class bursting into tears as she failed and was off to the Secondary Modern. Its something Ive never been able to get out of my head. The other was a girl who wet herself on day of 11plus. They at 11 knew what education was about.

The seconday modern was a holding pen until one went off to apprenticeship ( if a boy) or got married and had a part time job ( girl).

At age of 11 even then I thought this was unjust.

At least in 60s/ 70s before the Right took over in this country there were proper apprentiseships. That is gone now. My local estate the Council think running course in becoming an "entrepreuneur" ie self employed is great step forward. I said this is not proper training and they look bemused. This making everyone responsible for themselves self employment is what is shit. The Right wing fantasy of making everyone think the way to get on is being clever at business. Not through collective action.

I was the last cohort that went to through the old system before the Comprehensives came in.

With all the "liberal shit"  and no 11 plus.

As previous posts here have shown looking at the evidence things have actually got worse for working class children and its not due to "liberal shit" teaching. Its due to cuts in education to less well off areas.









						‘Working-class children get less of everything in education - including respect’
					

Interview Diane Reay grew up on a council estate, the eldest of eight, and became a Cambridge professor. Now she wants to talk about inequality in education




					www.theguardian.com


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 21, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> One of my  memories of primary school was doing the 11 plus. When we got the results ( I passed to the annoyance of one teacher) I remember one girl in my class bursting into tears as she failed and was off to the Secondary Modern. Its something Ive never been able to get out of my head. The other was a girl who wet herself on day of 11plus. They at 11 knew what education was about.
> 
> The seconday modern was a holding pen until one went off to apprenticeship ( if a boy) or got married and had a part time job ( girl).
> 
> ...



I really dunno what you are arguing against.

11+ was clearly shit. The replacement that everyone was some kind of boff was equally as shit. Surely we can have an education system that is geared towards the needs of the person passing through it, enabling them to make the most of their potential and by definition, the best for the economy’?


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## Steel Icarus (May 21, 2020)

My Year 6 daughter's school have sent a letter saying they're opening from June 25th but only Reception and year 1 as they can't guarantee pupil safety with more than that.


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## Sweet FA (May 21, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I think your criticism of ECM was totally valid. I don't believe for a minute you were slagging off the obvious safeguarding benefits and multi-agency co-operation that has come about because of it.


Good for you. I agree with your criticisms too fwiw. 

I wondered if Bahnhof Strasse was aware of the benefits in his blanket dismissal, that's all. It had a big effect on me and my colleagues anyway.






(Murder of Victoria Climbié - Wikipedia)


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## Saul Goodman (May 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I really dunno what you are arguing against.
> 
> 11+ was clearly shit. The replacement that everyone was some kind of boff was equally as shit. Surely we can have an education system that is geared towards the needs of the person passing through it, enabling them to make the most of their potential and by definition, the best for the economy’?


Children are being lied to, by the people whose job it should should be to help them realise their potential in whatever field they're naturally proficient in or enjoy. 
Children obviously can't 'be whatever they want to be if they put their mind to it', so why lie to them and possibly destroy their future.
Unfurtunately, unless and until we start placing value on people who don't work at a desk, the problem isn't going away.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Children are being lied to, by the people whose job it should should be to help them realise their potential in whatever field they're naturally proficient in or enjoy.
> Children obviously can't 'be whatever they want to be if they put their mind to it', so why lie to them and possibly destroy their future.
> Unfurtunately, unless and until we start placing value on people who don't work at a desk, the problem isn't going away.



Being in Ireland you probably don’t see them, but the Royal Navy have been having a recruitment drive, the theme of which is school failed to engage you and you left that drifting around, you joined the Navy and that is where you “were made”. Is it the job of the armed forces to give kids a purpose? Why couldn’t they “be made” at their local comp?


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Being in Ireland you probably don’t see them, but the Royal Navy have been having a recruitment drive, the theme of which is school failed to engage you and you left that drifting around, you joined the Navy and that is where you “were made”. Is it the job of the armed forces to give kids a purpose? Why couldn’t they “be made” at their local comp?


Advertising and propaganda are not the best places to look for how schools should work. I am of course not saying schools are doing a good job but i really don't trust a military advert to claim they do much better.

Plus it would be older students with a very different set of circumstances, outcomes and funding.  Not a fair comparison


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

And what is being made?

Being in the military does give you a purpose but a very narrow one.

How would you possibly scale that up to everyday life?


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

I should say I do agree with you basic statement  that it would be good if you could finish school with a feeling that it had prepared you for life but I'm not sure how that would work.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2020)

Of course they are adverts, but they are specifically aimed at people failed by a school system that is aimed at churning out kids to be office-fodder


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

What is the alternative?

I work in 'vocational' education specifically for those who don't have any mainstream qualifications and it's not a dramatic life changer. (I don't mean to say it's not important but it is not a magic bullet)

I'm not sure what we would do to prepare people for a world where it's unsure what the next generation of jobs will be.

That's why there is such a push for 'transferable skills' which ends up being the same office type stuff.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> What is the alternative?
> 
> I work in 'vocational' education specifically for those who don't have any mainstream qualifications and it's not a dramatic life changer. (I don't mean to say it's not important but it is not a magic bullet)
> 
> ...



Water will always need to come in to houses, as will leccy, the houses will always need to be built in the first place. Many of my mates are plumbers, fitters, mechanics etc. and they earn a very decent wage. But they all have one thing in common; school didn't set them on that path, it bored them shitless and seemed to be out to set them to a life of poorly paid drudgery. I am no educationalist, but it seems to me that this adherence to the national curriculum, something imposed by people who are also not educationalists is possibly not in the best interests of everyone.


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## philosophical (May 22, 2020)

What do we really mean by 'potential'?
Do we consider 5 year olds and assume they have the potential to be a brain surgeon and an Olympic athlete and a concert violinist and a structural engineer?
Or somebody who has the potential to be spiritual, or happy or a great leader, or a great follower?
The concept seems odd and the word meaningless. Maybe every baby has the 'potential' to be everything everybody has ever been.
In addition it seems to be a concept that clashes with the here and now.
A child in a class might possibly think 'I'll do this because in the future it will make me a scientist', or that child might possibly think 'right now this is tedious and I am bored and I want to play with my friends'.
The word potential is as insidious as the word professional.

Edit. There is an interesting play called Gotcha by Barrie Keefe that explores this notion.


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## ska invita (May 22, 2020)

*Independent Sage warns against school reopening plan*

A group of senior scientists has warned that 1 June is too soon for schools to reopen safely and that more time is needed to set up an effective track and trace system to contain future outbreaks.
The independent Sage committee, chaired by the former government chief scientist Sir David King, say that new modelling of the coronavirus shows the risk to children will be halved if they return to school two weeks later than ministers propose. Delaying until September reduced the risk still further.
The extra two weeks would allow more time for infections to fall in the community and for crucial track and trace capacity to be built up so that new cases are found and isolated fast.

“It is clear from the evidence we have collected that 1 June is simply too early to go back. By going ahead with this dangerous decision, the government is further risking the health of our communities and the likelihood of a second spike,” Professor King said.

In a draft consultation published on Friday, the experts say local authorities must demonstrate low levels of infection and an ability to contain new infections before schools are reopened, with public consultation a “vital” part of the decision-making process.
The report urges authorities to consider summer camps and outdoor schools for educating children with community playing fields and sports clubs requisitioned for teaching purposes.

King said the decision of when to re-open schools was a “careful balance” but added it was vital for young people to get back to the classroom as soon as it was safe to do so. “The current climate is likely to disproportionately affect the most disadvantaged in society, therefore it is vital that the government also considers innovative ways to help those who need it most.”

Professor King established the Independent Sage committee amid concerns over the lack of transparency around scientific advice reaching ministers from the government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage), co-chaired by the chief scientific adviser, Patrick Vallance and England’s chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty.

Paul Whiteman, general secretary of the school leaders’ union NAHT, said: “Support for a fixed date for school return is vanishing quickly. What is needed now is local flexibility to determine when it is right for schools to open up to more pupils, informed by evidence of what is happening in their local area.”

The Independent Sage committee will host an online discussion at midday on Friday for teachers, parents, children and union representatives in association with the British Medical Journal and Mumsnet. It will broadcast on the Independent Sage YouTube channel, the committee’s Facebook page, on Twitter via @independentSAGE and @Sir_David_King and BMJ’s home page.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Water will always need to come in to houses, as will leccy, the houses will always need to be built in the first place. Many of my mates are plumbers, fitters, mechanics etc. and they earn a very decent wage. But they all have one thing in common; school didn't set them on that path, it bored them shitless and seemed to be out to set them to a life of poorly paid drudgery. I am no educationalist, but it seems to me that this adherence to the national curriculum, something imposed by people who are also not educationalists is possibly not in the best interests of everyone.


School bored me shitless most of the time and I'm a teacher.

The question is what is the alternative?

I mean I have lots of ideas about what I would do differently but I'm not sure most would agree with me.

Also if we push any particular vocational training we will probably end up flooding that market.


----------



## philosophical (May 22, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> School bored me shitless most of the time and I'm a teacher.
> 
> The question is what is the alternative?
> 
> ...



Not only you. Me too, and Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.
One factor seems to me to be that kids occupy the here and now, yet the system obsesses about something in the future.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 22, 2020)

Yep. Often young people are only capable of thinking about the future when they reach it, years later.


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2020)

Funnily enough, the last couple of days I've started some reading about curriculum hierarchy - vocational, indeed any practical subject, are regarded as "lower status" across the West and have been for a long time. 

Some suggest this down to some Platonic or Cartesian distinction between mind and body, between physical and mental labour. 

My own angle is that it's more to do with Bourdieu's idea of status being linked to "distance from necessity" i.e. a marker of status is the ability to engage in activity further from meeting immediate needs.

Just as Russian criminals in the labour camps would grow their finger nails long to display that they didn't need to engage in physical work - they had the means to not do so - so the middle-classes can study subjects such Maths or Physics whose purpose is credentials for entry into future study - an investment whose returns are deferred far longer than, say, a Plumbing course. 

The higher up you go, the more pronounced this becomes with archetypical subjects of privilege being things like Classics


----------



## ska invita (May 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> Funnily enough, the last couple of days I've started some reading about curriculum hierarchy - vocational, indeed any practical subject, are regarded as "lower status" across the West and have been for a long time.
> 
> Some suggest this down to some Platonic or Cartesian distinction between mind and body, between physical and mental labour.
> 
> ...


"We fully recognise the necessity of specialisation of knowledge, but we maintain that specialisation must follow general education, and that general education must be given in science and handicraft alike. To the division of society into brainworkers and manual workers we oppose the combination of both kinds of activities; and instead of `technical education,' which means the maintenance of the present division between brain work and manual work, we advocate the éducation intégrale, or complete education, which means the disappearance of that pernicious distinction."  Kropotkin

...IIRC a big part of that was to get kids doing a lot more practical things in schools, outside of the classroom a lot, which engage kids more too. Subject for a seperate thread really


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

Yeah. 
I've had ideas for a more indiviudulised system using computer systems and a gamified system. Students would be free to follow what ever projects they wanted and would gain points based on achievements. Topics that are considered important would be worth more points. People doing similar projects would be linked together through the system to cooperate. Rather than classes it would be project spaces.

However I do feel that this system probably does require some form of regular teaching of younger students to prepare them for this system.

I imagine it would get a lot of pushback though.


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2020)

My last post on this (as Ska says it's for another thread really)

The above taxonomy shows the value placed on A level subjects by Russell Group universities. Obviously the languages are a specific anomaly but beyond that it's fairly depressingly predictable....


----------



## philosophical (May 22, 2020)

My partner teaches a foreign language.  Now I am aware that language is wrapped up in culture, and teaching and learning the entirety of  language is impossible, but I have often thought that learning a foreign language is a very 'pure' form of teaching and learning.


----------



## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No. Guessing it is something terrible like Baby P. And perhaps I am using it wrongly as an example of the thinking that every kid can be a white collar worker which seems very much to be the way education has been pushing kids the last two decades. Perhaps that is the pushback against 11+, but the endless stream of kids I have witnessed coming for jobs in my industry who can’t do mental maths or basic English, let alone political geography is astonishing. Someone is telling them that they should be going for these jobs, when a skill/trade would see them much better off. It’s depressing.


There are so many reasons literacy and numeracy are bad in this country and imo the biggest is the start of formal education way too early before children are neurologically ready and the relentless push on exams which replaces real learning with hoop jumping.


----------



## 8ball (May 22, 2020)

nagapie said:


> There are so many reasons literacy and numeracy are bad in this country and imo the biggest is the start of formal education way too early before children are neurologically ready and the relentless push on exams which replaces real learning with hoop jumping.



What is it about 'formal education' specifically that kids aren't neurologically ready for?


----------



## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> What is it about 'formal education' specifically that kids aren't neurologically ready for?



At it's most basic, they are told to stop moving and sit still when they should be learning through sensory exploration, movement and play.


----------



## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> What is it about 'formal education' specifically that kids aren't neurologically ready for?


If you haven't yet learnt how to co-ordinate your body well, how can you then sit down and be a good writer. The visual system, for example, is not fully matured until around ages 7-9. You develop it by moving through time and space. If you have to suddenly sit on the carpet or sit at a table abruptly, you may not be ready to process the written word.


----------



## 8ball (May 22, 2020)

nagapie said:


> At it's most basic, they are told to stop moving and sit still when they should be learning through sensory exploration, movement and play.



Makes sense, cheers.


----------



## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> Makes sense, cheers.



And now they even have to take a test in Year 1. It's so bonkers you couldn't make it up.


----------



## 8ball (May 22, 2020)

nagapie said:


> And now they even have to take a test in Year 1. It's so bonkers you couldn't make it up.



Management dogma leaking everywhere.  The idea that the only benchmark of value is heaps of measurement data.

I think kids are fine with learning reading at that age, but the regimentation is the issue.


----------



## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> Management dogma leaking everywhere.  The idea that the only benchmark of value is heaps of measurement data.
> 
> I think kids are fine with learning reading at that age, but the regimentation is the issue.



I don't mind if kids want to learn to read at 5 but it shouldn't be part of the curriculum. 

Testing is not only dogma, it's also big business.


----------



## 8ball (May 22, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I don't mind if kids want to learn to read at 5 but it shouldn't be part of the curriculum.
> 
> Testing is not only dogma, it's also big business.



I started learning at about 3 at the latest.  But I was a bit weird.
What would be in a curriculum if not even including reading (and I mean _any_ reading) by age 5?
It sounds more like a "curriculum" as conventionally done is something that could be largely done away with.


----------



## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> I started learning at about 3 at the latest.  But I was a bit weird.
> What would be in a curriculum if not even including reading (and I mean _any_ reading) by age 5?
> It sounds more like a "curriculum" as conventionally done is something that could be largely done away with.



Play, play indoors, play outdoors and then play some more. Everything you need to know can be learnt through play. Sure some kids can learn to read early, that's fine, their parents can teach them.


----------



## 8ball (May 22, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Play, play indoors, play outdoors and then play some more. Everything you need to know can be learnt through play. Sure some kids can learn to read early, that's fine, their parents can teach them.



Yeah, I was taught by my Nan.  I was ill a lot so didn't play outside as much as other kids.  So not typical.


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## Dogsauce (May 22, 2020)

My place (large primary, stand-alone academy) won’t be back on 1st June, as it doesn’t provide enough time to prepare, there’s a lot of physical things to be done before we are ready, then staff need to be made familiar with the new infrastructure and routines. Current plans point towards kids getting back in a week later. We’re having to spend quite a lot of money on getting the school ready, barriers, paper towel dispensers, all kinds of signage etc. Everything works in little cells, playground divided up into different areas. Fortunately all classrooms have an external door so easier than it will be for a lot of places. 

No idea how many kids will be coming back in, currently we have between six and fifteen kids per day as keyworker provision, from 400 kids normally. After school and breakfast clubs won’t be up and running as these are done by an external company who have basically said they won’t be back at it until September (which also affects the summer holiday club they run).  Not sure how many parents will be ‘freed up’ for working by these arrangements, a lot of schools will be similar, some are only doing a couple of days a week for some age groups. Makes you wonder what the point of it all is.


----------



## planetgeli (May 22, 2020)

Just a quickie on this 'must get back to school' thing. I've just been informed that in the hubs that have been opened for the last 7 weeks in my county, for key workers and vulnerable pupils, the teachers have been directly told they are not allowed to teach anything as this would be giving an unfair advantage over non-attending pupils.

So just childcare then.

I'll come back to the alternative education syllabus in a bit.


----------



## Thora (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> I started learning at about 3 at the latest.  But I was a bit weird.
> What would be in a curriculum if not even including reading (and I mean _any_ reading) by age 5?
> It sounds more like a "curriculum" as conventionally done is something that could be largely done away with.


There’s a whole big long early years curriculum, and even a whole reading curriculum, with the actual learning letter sounds as a tiny bit on the end. Physical development, social & emotional development, communication skills, learning skills, creativity, technology, the natural world, community, maths, literacy.


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## Thora (May 22, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Just a quickie on this 'must get back to school' thing. I've just been informed that in the hubs that have been opened for the last 7 weeks in my county, for key workers and vulnerable pupils, the teachers have been directly told they are not allowed to teach anything as this would be giving an unfair advantage over non-attending pupils.
> 
> So just childcare then.
> 
> I'll come back to the alternative education syllabus in a bit.


Yes, it’s always been childcare. Not just because it’s unfair but because it’s impractical - what can a teacher teach to a group of 10 4-11 year olds from a couple of different schools who might be only doing odd hours or half days, and the teacher is in odd days or weeks on/off.
They’ve been doing the same home learning other kids do at home or vaguely educational activities, games and sport.


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2020)

Scientists warn 1 June is too early for schools to reopen in England
					

Independent Sage committee says more time is needed to set up coronavirus track and trace




					www.theguardian.com
				




Saw this in Guardian today.

In summary says it being rushed. Track and Trace need to be up and running. Local up to date info needed on infection rates. Some schools in rural area with low infection rates could open sooner.



> “It is clear from the evidence we have collected that 1 June is simply too early to go back. By going ahead with this dangerous decision, the government is further risking the health of our communities and the likelihood of a second spike,” Prof King said.



The Independent SAGE group will have online public discussion this Friday. Details in the link to Guardian.

The Independent SAGE group is as name suggests independent of the government one.


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2020)

The Independent SAGE group also suggests using playing fields for example as outdoor schools. Any teachers here have views on that? How would that work?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The Independent SAGE group also suggests using playing fields for example as outdoor schools. Any teachers here have views on that? How would that work?


let's hope any playing fields used are level


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## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The Independent SAGE group also suggests using playing fields for example as outdoor schools. Any teachers here have views on that? How would that work?


What playing fields? Oh you mean the ones that were sold off 😂


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## Gramsci (May 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> Funnily enough, the last couple of days I've started some reading about curriculum hierarchy - vocational, indeed any practical subject, are regarded as "lower status" across the West and have been for a long time.
> 
> Some suggest this down to some Platonic or Cartesian distinction between mind and body, between physical and mental labour.
> 
> ...



Thats interesting. Back in 70s I passed 11plus and common entrance exam for local public school. So got in free under the old Direct Grant system. Majority who went came from the Prep school.

First term senior teacher gave my class a pep talk. His exact words were "We weren't  at this school to end up as dustmen but to beome the person who told dustmen what to do."  It was a hangover from imperialism. Working class needed someone to tell them what to do.

I would however add for the ruling class the cultivation of the body separate from any notion of physical work was important.

Sport was big part of the curriculam. Cricket and Rugby. Not Footballl as that was working class. The Senior Prefects were all from the schools Rugby and Cricket teams. Head Boy was usually Captain of the Schools cricket team. Important part of learning to join the ruling class. The cultivation of the body and mind Id say was the object. But not for physical labour.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 22, 2020)

Thora said:


> Yes, it’s always been childcare. Not just because it’s unfair but because it’s impractical - what can a teacher teach to a group of 10 4-11 year olds from a couple of different schools who might be only doing odd hours or half days, and the teacher is in odd days or weeks on/off.
> They’ve been doing the same home learning other kids do at home or vaguely educational activities, games and sport.



Ours are just in the main hall and practical room/ICT suite, no classrooms are in use. Running it a bit like an after school club, they’re doing PE with Joe Wicks, making things, charging round the playground like loons. When there is as few as six kids in some days then hard to do anything structured across different age ranges.

Kids do seem to be loving it though, especially having the fairly large playground to themselves. I reckon there will be some strong bonds of friendship being forged amongst this little gang, plus maybe closer bonds with teaching staff too. Not really much social distancing going on from what I see, just kids being kids.


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Thats interesting. Back in 70s I passed 11plus and common entrance exam for local public school. So got in free under the old Direct Grant system. Majority who went came from the Prep school.
> 
> First term senior teacher gave my class a pep talk. His exact words were "We weren't  at this school to end up as dustmen but to beome the person who told dustmen what to do."  It was a hangover from imperialism. Working class needed someone to tell them what to do.
> 
> ...



I was reading about sports, class and school last month!


----------



## Mattym (May 22, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Just a quickie on this 'must get back to school' thing. I've just been informed that in the hubs that have been opened for the last 7 weeks in my county, for key workers and vulnerable pupils, the teachers have been directly told they are not allowed to teach anything as this would be giving an unfair advantage over non-attending pupils.
> 
> So just childcare then.
> 
> I'll come back to the alternative education syllabus in a bit.



Yes, we've also been told to do consolidatory work only for that exact reason.


----------



## 20Bees (May 22, 2020)

I was one of three from my primary school who passed the 11+ in 1967, we went to three different grammar schools. My elder sister had learned shorthand, which fascinated me, and on asking whether shorthand and typing were core or optional subjects I was told we didn’t go to grammar school to become secretaries - so, no. In 1971 my school merged with two secondary moderns to form a giant comprehensive. Y11s stayed on their O level curriculum with the same teachers but all the secondary kids using the building and grounds. We were despised and derided, I was so upset by it all that I refused to go into 6 th form and went straight into a clerical job, staying until I was married and pregnant. All grammar school did for me was make me feel guilty, weird and friendless. Not much change 50 years on...


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## flypanam (May 22, 2020)

My wife’s school has said that classes will be three hour longs, with pods of 15 kids with no toilet breaks to cut down on moving between classes.


----------



## Aladdin (May 22, 2020)

8ball said:


> I started learning at about 3 at the latest.  But I was a bit weird.
> What would be in a curriculum if not even including reading (and I mean _any_ reading) by age 5?
> It sounds more like a "curriculum" as conventionally done is something that could be largely done away with.




My brother could read at 2 and a half. 
When he went to school he was reading encyclopedias.
He spent his days in school playing in the sand pit and messing with water. The teacher thought he had learning difficulties because he point blank refused to sit and listen to her playing her recorder. 
She called in my parents who sat there and started to laugh. They called the brother into the meeting and handed him a book. Of course he read it and then he explored it. 
Teacher apologised and it was quickly realised that he had been bored shitless and that messing with sand and water was far more educational in his mind than anything the teacher was doing. 
😁


----------



## Aladdin (May 22, 2020)

flypanam said:


> My wife’s school has said that classes will be three hour longs, with pods of 15 kids with no toilet breaks to cut down on moving between classes.



Rough...no toilet breaks? Kids tend to need toilet breaks. 😳


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

3 hour classes?

fucking hell...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

just do a normal lesson and  then stick on a movie...


----------



## flypanam (May 22, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Rough...no toilet breaks? Kids tend to need toilet breaks. 😳


She’s just got clarification. Toilet breaks will be allowed as long as there are members of staff to accompany the children to the jacks and ensure they use the hand sanitisers. But the 3 hour class is staying.


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

how on earth are you going to  have  enough people for  accompanied  toilet trips?  maybe if you have a bunch of TAs i guess.

The  3 hour thing is painful.

maybe  just  have  the  kids  stay and  the  teachers  move about  when possible.


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## nagapie (May 22, 2020)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> how on earth are you going to  have  enough people for  accompanied  toilet trips?  maybe if you have a bunch of TAs i guess.
> 
> The  3 hour thing is painful.
> 
> maybe  just  have  the  kids  stay and  the  teachers  move about  when possible.


Surely it's going to be more difficult for the students! This doesn't sound legal.


----------



## philosophical (May 22, 2020)

Once one kid goes to the bog, they will all get the idea to do so, it will be a toilet chain reaction.


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 22, 2020)

That happens enough as it is.

Mind you I hear plenty of schools  have harsh  bog protocols  nowadays


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## 20Bees (May 23, 2020)

In reception??


Shippou-Sensei said:


> That happens enough as it is.
> 
> Mind you I hear plenty of schools  have harsh  bog protocols  nowadays


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (May 23, 2020)

20Bees said:


> In reception??


I dunno the receptionist won't tell me.


----------



## zahir (May 23, 2020)

Independent SAGE on re-opening schools


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2020)

BB2’s school has just sent a (very badly worded) letter to all parents, the second paragraph of which says no school for years 1 & 2 for the remainder of this academic term. So just reception kids in and BB2’s year two mob have basically now left the school. No mention of bump up days for their new schools or anything. Not told her yet, half of her buddies are going to a different junior school to her, which she’s cool about, but she did want some time with them before school ended. We’d bought a load of red summer gingham dresses for her just before the plague came, five of the buggers, never worn. Her new school colour is green


----------



## spanglechick (May 24, 2020)

chilango said:


> View attachment 213937
> 
> My last post on this (as Ska says it's for another thread really)
> 
> The above taxonomy shows the value placed on A level subjects by Russell Group universities. Obviously the languages are a specific anomaly but beyond that it's fairly depressingly predictable....


Back in 2013 the Russell Group’s actual admission data showed that this list was bullshit, and that in practice one of the most commonplace supporting A level subjects for students selected by Russell group unis was Theatre Studies (economics was also popular).  The RG finally in summer 2019, stopped giving the list as guidance (though of course they never actually admitted that this preferred list was some weird political agenda).


----------



## Thora (May 24, 2020)

DfE released the guidance for early years/childcare settings at lunchtime today.  With 4 working days to go


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## Jeremiah18.17 (May 29, 2020)

Looking like an absolute shitshow now. Likely only a small number of schools opening up for only a slightly larger number of pupils than were already eligible to go in.  Mass absenteeism likely in those (usually academy) schools still toeing the line. Revolt in some academy schools where they are going ahead but local authority schools locally have been advised to remain closed to all but key worker/ vulnerable kids. Many urban areas across England have councils blocking or advising against Govt plan, Devolved nations not playing either.
Expect Cummings’ blonde puppet to either cast it as sabotage by lefties and unions hurting parents who want to work and vulnerable kids; or else say that the plan all along was total flexibility and laisse faire....


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 29, 2020)

Partner’s (academy run) primary and nursery school having to tell parents they will open on Tuesday rather than Monday as haven't received all relevant signage and equipment. Teachers and Teaching Assistants have been told Academy group policy is no PPE in the classroom.....🤬


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 30, 2020)

NEU statement at eleventh hour:








						Stop wider 1 June school reopening
					

NEU calls on Government to step back from the brink and stop wider 1 June school reopening




					neu.org.uk


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2020)

Was wondering about experience of any teachers here or parents of the first day back.

My partner does not have to go back. School confirmed it on Friday.

For reasons I cant go into here.

I have friend who is not sending his children back. One is in high risk category. I can tell its starting to stress him out. The Tories giving impression that lock down is ending. Like he said hospital still says risk is high and his child cant go out so why is lockdown winding down? Why are people not wearing masks in supermarket? I can see his point.

Impression I got is that staff and parents who can't go back have not got clear guarentees from central government over their rights.

Nor am i clear. Do they have gaurentee of home schooling? Can schools not in future not make staff redundant who didn't come back in June?

Despite the push by Tories to get staff and school children back they haven't been clear imo on what happens to those who can't or don't feel safe to do so.

Reading  the press today and get the impression in England this is like an experiment. If cases go up its failed.

I sadly also think, seeing the alteration in peoples behaviour in my area in last week, that some people have become inured to the high death toll.

For others in higher risk category it has not gone away.


----------



## krink (Jun 1, 2020)

I just don't know what to do for the best. my 15yo is meant to be going back on the 15th. It's really stressful thinking about it for her and me


----------



## Thora (Jun 1, 2020)

My kids are going back, one tomorrow and one on Thursday.  2 days a week each.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 1, 2020)

I had a letter from the head of my kids' high school saying they were currently expecting to reopen on the 11th of August but only to have about a third of the school in at any one time. No mention of how that's going to work yet, which year groups might be in together or anything.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 2, 2020)

Academy running primary where partner works have now supplied PPE, but only to be used during first aid or “toilet accidents” - which are frequent in nursery and reception! Still not supposed to be wearing PPE at any other time.  Nursery and reception and years 1 & 6 all supposed to be in today after 1day delay.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 2, 2020)

Our local village primary apparently had zero Year 6 children show up. 

Also the reception teacher is still shielding, so the early years class doesn't even have a teacher. They should just rename it State Childcare for the rest of the year.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jun 2, 2020)

My 7 year old is back from tomorrow. He has autism and is already past the point of ever catching up with his age group. However, he will be in a classroom, just him and his 1-2-1 ABA tutor, actually learning.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 2, 2020)

On the comments about exams at GCSE in Drama and 'A' level Theatre Studies to get the top grades you need to get around 98% in the exams. A much higher threshold than many (most) other subjects.
That is a very tough ask probably because some see those subjects as soft or easy. 
If you meet a person with the high grades in those subjects I would suggest they jolly well earned them and are likely to be very capable people.
I also think those subjects are valuable and very often misunderstood.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 2, 2020)

Anyway, about this r number.

31m ago12:12
A primary school in *Derby* has temporarily closed after reporting that seven staff members tested positive for Covid-19.
*Arboretum primary school *is due to be shut for a week with all affected parties instructed to isolate for 14 days.
Derby Diocesan Academy Trust (DDAT), which runs the school, said four members of staff tested negative for the virus.
DDAT added that the affected staff had only suffered mild symptoms and were recovering well at home.
In a statement, the trust said:


> Following one member of staff reporting symptoms, the school quickly identified any other members of staff, parents/carers and/or children who may have been in contact and instructed them to isolate for the government’s recommended period of 14 days.
> Since then, six members of staff have tested positive and four members of staff who were in contact have tested negative.
> There have been no reports of parents/carers or children displaying symptoms.
> In line with guidance, the school has closed this week to allow a deep-clean to be completed and will reopen next week, initially to children of key workers and vulnerable children.


A Derby city council spokesperson said none of the seven staff members who tested has “been in touch with children”.
“The school will re-open on Monday June 8 and all of those adults who may have been in contact with the affected staff have been informed,” they added.


That went well.


----------



## Mattym (Jun 2, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Anyway, about this r number.
> 
> 31m ago12:12
> A primary school in *Derby* has temporarily closed after reporting that seven staff members tested positive for Covid-19.
> ...



I was going to post that. I'm assuming that total's built up over the last few weeks. It's not good news for Derby schools & hope all those staff make a good recovery from this nonsense.


----------



## Thora (Jun 2, 2020)

Sounds odd that they were all staff who hadn't been in contact with children.  Maybe they were working together in school though, setting home learning etc.  Or some were younger teachers house sharing


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 2, 2020)

Thora said:


> Maybe they were working together in school though, setting home learning etc.



I thought this, maybe involved in setting up the school's return last week? Tests take at least 48 hours to come back don't they so this hasn't happened overnight.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 2, 2020)

Some teachers have been in school working with 'at risk' kids or essential workers kids throughout this shit. 

Most will have been called into schools at least a week ago to set up distancing and planning generally.


----------



## Limejuice (Jun 2, 2020)

My wife's school, has spent weeks figuring out some system to handle distancing, 'teaching bubbles', parent coralling,  as well as shifting furniture out into storage, and laying down miles of tape and signage. They had a proper mathematics expert work out the logistics to conform to guidelines and apply them to the actual layout of the buildings. The head produced a video showing parents what the return-to-school would mean for the kids, the distancing involved, etc.

First thing this morning was an email from a parent suggesting that the school start a car-sharing scheme for bringing the kids to and from school.


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 2, 2020)

Derby thing is interesting- apparently school is on way to (relatively badly affected) Derby Royal Hospital. Not sure if it has not been a “hub school” for key workers kids, with other schools locally sending their key workers (and staff?) in? If affected staff were in last week doing set up for this week’s return they may not have been in contact with kids, but with a) teachers who have been with key workers children and b) environments where these children were recently being taught c) with each other, and it would only take one infected member of staff to infect the others
No doubt tracking and tracing will be employed, no? 🤔


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## Badgers (Jun 2, 2020)

Another school near my sisters (primary school teacher) school in Yorkshire has just had similar.


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## Mattym (Jun 2, 2020)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Derby thing is interesting- apparently school is on way to (relatively badly affected) Derby Royal Hospital. Not sure if it has not been a “hub school” for key workers kids, with other schools locally sending their key workers (and staff?) in? If affected staff were in last week doing set up for this week’s return they may not have been in contact with kids, but with a) teachers who have been with key workers children and b) environments where these children were recently being taught c) with each other, and it would only take one infected member of staff to infect the others
> No doubt tracking and tracing will be employed, no? 🤔



It had pupils from a number of schools within the MAT from what I gather.


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## Gramsci (Jun 2, 2020)

So  each time a person tests positive a school closes for a deepclean. 

As the virus is still going around this is going to happen to a lot of schools.


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## MickiQ (Jun 2, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So  each time a person tests positive a school closes for a deepclean.
> 
> As the virus is still going around this is going to happen to a lot of schools.


The average primary school has 200-300 pupils and the average secondary has 1000-1500, it's going to cause absolute frigging chaos come September.


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## ska invita (Jun 2, 2020)

A friend teaches around the Aylesbury Estate/Elephant, lots of vulnerable kids in different way... they weren't expecting a lot of kids to come in this week but took a guesstimate at 50....7 turned up


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## chilango (Jun 3, 2020)

philosophical said:


> On the comments about exams at GCSE in Drama and 'A' level Theatre Studies to get the top grades you need to get around 98% in the exams. A much higher threshold than many (most) other subjects.
> That is a very tough ask probably because some see those subjects as soft or easy.
> If you meet a person with the high grades in those subjects I would suggest they jolly well earned them and are likely to be very capable people.
> I also think those subjects are valuable and very often misunderstood.



Yeah. My point was not about the actual merit of these kinda subjects (I was an Art teacher for years) but more about their perceived and presented status amongst different bits of the population.

I don't want to derail the thread too much on this, but I find the deployment of curricula as classed signifiers interesting, sorry!


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## planetgeli (Jun 3, 2020)

Coronavirus: Schools in Wales to reopen on 29 June
					

Parents who do not to send their children to school when they reopen on 29 June will not be fined.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




All schools in Wales will reopen on 29 June, the education minister has said.

They will be open to pupils from all year groups for limited periods during the week, with only a third of pupils in school at any one time, Kirsty Williams said.

Schools and councils will make their own decisions over managing the return.

The summer term has been extended by one week to 27 July, and the autumn half-term holiday will be stretched to two weeks.

Parents who choose not to send their children to school will not be fined and children who fall into the shielding category will carry on with online learning.

Some teaching unions have criticised the move, with NEU Cymru saying its members will be told they do not have to return to school if they feel the risk is too great.

David Evans, from NEU, said the measures were "too much, too soon" and that there was "little or no consultation" over the additional week at the end of July.
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I actually think this will make little difference because so few parents will send their kids for 4 weeks, deciding it isn't worth the risk for just the end of the summer term.


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## philosophical (Jun 3, 2020)

chilango said:


> Yeah. My point was not about the actual merit of these kinda subjects (I was an Art teacher for years) but more about their perceived and presented status amongst different bits of the population.
> 
> I don't want to derail the thread too much on this, but I find the deployment of curricula as classed signifiers interesting, sorry!


 No need to apologise to me whatsoever.
The debate about education is interesting to me as and of itself.


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## planetgeli (Jun 8, 2020)

Got a call this morning from school asking me if I was ok to go back to work on the 29th. This was presented as a choice, which quite amazed me. I said yes and was then told planning is in early stages but I could be assured that everything would be done to assure my safety (except provide your own PPE) and that it would not be full time, likely half days and on a rota basis. Also that staff would be assigned one group of children only (likely meaning only 1 or 2 pupils) and we would stay with this group, rather than there being any changing between classrooms. So childcare basically.

So far so good. I'm quite impressed by this. So far.


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## Red Cat (Jun 8, 2020)

planetgeli  I thought you might be interested in this free course offered by the University of Essex psychosocial dept who run a degree in working therapeutically with children: Why won’t they behave why can’t they learn | University of Essex


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## planetgeli (Jun 8, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> planetgeli  I thought you might be interested in this free course offered by the University of Essex psychosocial dept who run a degree in working therapeutically with children: Why won’t they behave why can’t they learn | University of Essex



Thanks Red Cat that looks interesting. Unfortunately the advertised (first?) talk is on a day I have to travel to London for an MRI, and I'll probably be waiting for a train back at that time. But I'll get in touch with them to register my interest for the other talks. And see if there's some way of maybe getting a download or something for this first talk.

Also, my degree is from Essex University. Not sure if this is a good, bad or neutral thing. 

Thanks again, that's very thoughtful of you.


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## Red Cat (Jun 8, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Thanks Red Cat that looks interesting. Unfortunately the advertised (first?) talk is on a day I have to travel to London for an MRI, and I'll probably be waiting for a train back at that time. But I'll get in touch with them to register my interest for the other talks. And see if there's some way of maybe getting a download or something for this first talk.
> 
> Also, my degree is from Essex University. Not sure if this is a good, bad or neutral thing.
> 
> Thanks again, that's very thoughtful of you.



No worries  

I'd just book here: Why won’t they behave? Why can’t they learn? -  A short programme of free online talks on working with troubled children.

I think they're very keen to promote their department, so if it's possible for them to offer you a download I should think they will.

Best of luck with the MRI


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## Badgers (Jun 9, 2020)

Going well then...









						Coronavirus: Plan dropped for all primary pupils back in school
					

The reopening of primary school for all year groups in England is to be ditched by the government.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				








__





						Plans to reopen English primary schools before summer in disarray | Schools | The Guardian
					

Government sources acknowledge practicalities too difficult for all children to return




					amp.theguardian.com


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Going well then...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




On BB2’s class WhatsApp so many parents have been going on about that there’s hope for her year 2 class to return this summer. Luckily I have told her that this is highly unlikely and she’s cool and looking forward to junior school in September (now also, possibly unlikely!). Today’s WhatsApp will be pinging away with upset parents having to dash the hopes of their kids.

Fucking useless government, it has been fairly obvious for a while that schools are buggered, should all be shut until at least September and focus on returning safely then.


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## Badgers (Jun 9, 2020)

Messaged my sister this morning (primary school teacher) who said they fully expected this. They have stayed open for 'at risk' children and those with key worker parents throughout this whole thing and will continue to do so. She is doing two days a week in class and 2/3 days a week at home supporting other teachers + parents with kids at home. 

Her main worry is more the next wave of cuts to school budgets  and the worsening poverty of the families she works with over the coming decade or more


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## Spandex (Jun 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Going well then...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the official government position on reopening schools is now "_we don't fucking know - do what you want_".

It's this kind of clear sighted vision that's made the country what it is today.


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## brogdale (Jun 9, 2020)

Spandex said:


> So the official government position on reopening schools is now "_we don't fucking know - do what you want_".
> 
> It's this kind of clear sighted vision that's made the country what it is today.


Yep, the rona-ridden killing field of Europe.


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## planetgeli (Jun 9, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> On BB2’s class WhatsApp so many parents have been going on about that there’s hope for her year 2 class to return this summer. Luckily I have told her that this is highly unlikely and she’s cool and looking forward to junior school in September (now also, possibly unlikely!). Today’s WhatsApp will be pinging away with upset parents having to dash the hopes of their kids.
> 
> Fucking useless government, it has been fairly obvious for a while that schools are buggered, should all be shut until at least September and focus on returning safely then.



Yeah, just to reiterate my position, which hasn't changed. Schools should not be going back until September. Particularly not in the half-arsed way being proposed in Wales, which seems to be doing its best to rival England in the chaos it is bringing. The plan is to have some sort of four week trial to supposedly aid with 'getting things ready' for September. In theory this is rubbish and in practise it is going to be a joke with so few parents actually sending their kids in that it is only going to be childcare, not education. In Wales it seems virtually everything is being left to individual schools, which will bring no consistency for a government supposedly in love with a 'national' curriculum.

But my school is different, we're a PRU that handles the most vulnerable kids who are often in danger from their own families. I'm not happy with half-arsed arrangements to go back but feel that if we can provide better childcare and safeguarding for the most vulnerable then we should. As I say, in reality in my school this may well only amount to perhaps less than ten children. But they are ten incredibly vulnerable children and my feeling is if we can do something for them, then we should.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 9, 2020)

Spandex said:


> So the official government position on reopening schools is now "_we don't fucking know - do what you want_".
> 
> It's this kind of clear sighted vision that's made the country what it is today.



it was kind of like that already tbh, schools had some choice in what they provided (although those under local authority control may have this imposed from above). My place (large stand-alone academy) only opened yesterday for year six and key workers, reception and year one are back next week. Only running mon-thurs with a deep clean on Friday.  From the register I glanced at this morning they were expecting 18 key workers and 22 year six (based on parent/carer replies) but no idea how many were actually in.


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## planetgeli (Jun 9, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Got a call this morning from school asking me if I was ok to go back to work on the 29th. This was presented as a choice, which quite amazed me. I said yes and was then told planning is in early stages but I could be assured that everything would be done to assure my safety (except provide your own PPE) and that it would not be full time, likely half days and on a rota basis. Also that staff would be assigned one group of children only (likely meaning only 1 or 2 pupils) and we would stay with this group, rather than there being any changing between classrooms. So childcare basically.
> 
> So far so good. I'm quite impressed by this. So far.



Well well well. Just got an email saying the L.A *will* be providing us with PPE. Frankly I'll believe it when I see it. As they never provide us with anything (they were going to get laptops out to all our pupils early May - never happened). Also been told it will be a maximum of three 1/2 days a week, with pupils getting a maximum of two 1/2 days. Which barely seems worth it but it's "a logistical nightmare" apparently. And, tbf, it is.


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## Mattym (Jun 10, 2020)

Year 10 back next week. I'm in for 1 full day per week. We've been told to expect each year group for 1 day per week in September and with timetable changes and no social events (parents evenings etc) in person before November.
I'm sure a lot of parents are thinking, September= back to school, when, in reality, it probably means, 'partly back to school' (which, coincidentally,  would look good as a slogan on the advertising board of WH Smith & ASDA et al).


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## Sweet FA (Jun 10, 2020)

I've been 'back'* for the last 3 weeks 'teaching'** Y6.

I've had 18 out of 30 chn back - split into 2x bubbles. Got told last night that EY/Y1 provision is starting next week. 2/3/4/5 will be waiting til September I suspect, if then. A smart investment for the capitalist cunt about town is probably in the demountable classroom sector.  

We've never even had a conversation about PPE tbh. 

The fucking grief from parents though, no matter what you do. 




*Bar the first few weeks, I've not really been away; most of us have been in with KW children for 1 week on/2 weeks wfh. 
**There's zero teaching of even core subjects.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> I've been 'back'* for the last 3 weeks 'teaching'** Y6.
> 
> I've had 18 out of 30 chn back - split into 2x bubbles. Got told last night that EY/Y1 provision is starting next week. 2/3/4/5 will be waiting til September I suspect, if then. A smart investment for the capitalist cunt about town is probably in the demountable classroom sector.
> 
> ...




The whole thing is just child care, isn't it?


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## Mattym (Jun 10, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> I've been 'back'* for the last 3 weeks 'teaching'** Y6.
> 
> I've had 18 out of 30 chn back - split into 2x bubbles. Got told last night that EY/Y1 provision is starting next week. 2/3/4/5 will be waiting til September I suspect, if then. A smart investment for the capitalist cunt about town is probably in the demountable classroom sector.
> 
> ...



Well, yes, 'back'. Have been in for key worker children etc but I meant 'back' as in to teach my specialism and that's poor in terms of PPE and something which I would mention, but I suppose it's one thing not to have mentioned it, meaning the potential for discussion is there, as opposed to whoever, earlier in the thread, mentioned that 'no PPE is allowed in the academy chain'.


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## Thora (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The whole thing is just child care, isn't it?


My Year 5 child is being taught - he does the same English & maths work in the morning as set for home learning, and in the afternoon they do PE, art, gardening.
I’m not really sure what my Y1 is doing as he won’t tell me  - some of the home learning stuff but also lots of art & games, listening to stories.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

Thora said:


> My Year 5 child is being taught - he does the same English & maths work in the morning as set for home learning, and in the afternoon they do PE, art, gardening.
> I’m not really sure what my Y1 is doing as he won’t tell me  - some of the home learning stuff but also lots of art & games, listening to stories.




BB2's school Y1&2 are not allowed to go, YR has six bubbles, one being led by the woman who works in the office, so suspect there is not much teaching going on there...Y2 seems to have been wholly abandoned now, her junior school sent a letter yesterday to say that they had not had the stuff back from us that was sent to infant school to enable them to allocate classes with friendly faces etc., turns out infant school forgot to pass it on, feel really fucking angry about how poorly they have been treated tbh.


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## MickiQ (Jun 10, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Going well then...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To the absolute surprise of no-one but this doesn't solve the problem it just kicks the can down the road for a few months, what happens in September?
Mrs Q school has a little over 1500 pupils, They could probably make social distancing work with Y12 and 13 who only have to go in when they have lessons but what about the rest.
The school isn't going to build a dozen new classrooms and hire 40 new teachers between now and first week of September. Bringing the kids in for a couple of days a week is going to have a disastrous effect on their education if it goes on for any length of time.
And this is a sought after school in a middle class area where resources are (relatively) plentiful, it's going to be even harder for schools in more deprived areas who will have to compete for a limited supply of portacabins and supply teachers.
WIlliamson may or may not be a religious man but he must be praying for a breakthrough in the vaccine department

I wouldn't want to make too light of a serious situation but this is worth a read for the LOLs









						Williamson can hardly fiddle the science when he can't count to two | John Crace
					

Education secretary cancels idea of all pupils returning to school after grappling with basic maths




					www.theguardian.com


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## Sweet FA (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The whole thing is just child care, isn't it?


You say that as though it's a bad thing - caring for children is what I do 

I get what you're saying though. There has been a lot of colouring in done over the last couple of months. Some chn will be experts at not going over the lines by now.

On the other hand....there are some ace opportunities for running wild & picking and choosing from the curriculum. Yesterday, I was reading something by Morpurgo which lead onto a discussion of the Blitz. Me and my 10xY6 children of wildly varying abilities then spent the rest of the day building an Andersen Shelter in the classroom; researching designs online, loads of independent learning ("er yes, thanks Darryl, can we move on from the corpses photo now please?" ).

We then re-enacted an air raid - siren blasting through the wall speakers, children throwing plastic bottles around to simulate flying debris, running to the shelter trying to avoid being hit; followed by big discussion about how terrifying it would have been etc etc.

No written 'outcome', no testing, no assessment, no observation. A taste of what teaching & learning could look like. (With small classes, freedom to follow where chn want to go; finding the learning opportunities along the way - all pretty much impossible in Y6; it's all about the SATs).


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 10, 2020)

So who is being protected by social distancing at schools? The kids? They don't need protecting from the virus. The teachers? Unless they have underlying conditions, in which case surely they can be given the option to stay away and the all new testing regime can play a role, neither are they at a massive risk. The rest of us? Should young kids be physically distancing in even the medium term, with all the damage that brings, in order to keep adults safe due to the failings of adults?

I genuinely don't understand this process. It seems entirely irrational to me.


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## Thora (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> BB2's school Y1&2 are not allowed to go, YR has six bubbles, one being led by the woman who works in the office, so suspect there is not much teaching going on there...Y2 seems to have been wholly abandoned now, her junior school sent a letter yesterday to say that they had not had the stuff back from us that was sent to infant school to enable them to allocate classes with friendly faces etc., turns out infant school forgot to pass it on, feel really fucking angry about how poorly they have been treated tbh.


My youngest's infant school are just offering two days a week - at the moment only 10 out of 50 are going so they just have two classes, each with a teacher & TA, one on M&T and one on Th&F.  I think the plan is to have 4 classes all together but not sure how they will staff it.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So who is being protected by social distancing at schools? The kids? They don't need protecting from the virus. The teachers? Unless they have underlying conditions, in which case surely they can be given the option to stay away and the all new testing regime can play a role, neither are they at a massive risk. The rest of us? Should young kids be physically distancing in even the medium term, with all the damage that brings, in order to keep adults safe due to the failings of adults?
> 
> I genuinely don't understand this process. It seems entirely irrational to me.



The kids can be carriers who bring it home to granny. If in a bubble of ten there is less risk than a class of thirty.
Or some such bollocks.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The kids can be carriers who bring it home to granny. If in a bubble of ten there is less risk than a class of thirty.
> Or some such bollocks.


This basically. And therefore we don't need PPE.

Then at the end of the day, after they've been in bubbles, children leave school, hug each other then go down the woods to muck about in close proximity with loads of other herberts from other local schools. Parents are supposed to pick up but obviously most can't.


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## Badgers (Jun 10, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> Then at the end of the day, after they've been in bubbles, children leave school, hug each other then go down the woods to muck about in close proximity with loads of other herberts from other local schools. Parents are supposed to pick up but obviously most can't.


There is gang of lads (10-15) who play footy in the park near me. 
It has been a few weeks since they gave up distancing at all and started wrestling and such  

Can't be cross with kids but they are potentially spreading far and wide.


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## kebabking (Jun 10, 2020)

I think I'm becoming a hippy....

We got an email from #2's SENCO yesterday letting us know that she could go back if we wanted her to (EHCP for Autism), asking us if we needed any more support or whatever, and my first - and subsequent - reaction is that my kids have never been happier, healthier, more inquisitive about the world, or better behaved than when they've not been at school since March...

I've even looked at the local regs for home schooling. 

I've really enjoyed it - except maths, because maths with #2 is like pouring 10lbs of live ferrets into a 5lb bag - but I've loved it. I'm even thinking about retiring to do it. mortgage is paid off....

(I appreciate that this is by no means the experience of every child and parent, and probably not even a sizable minority, but for me - and these particular kids - fuck school...)


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## Thora (Jun 10, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I think I'm becoming a hippy....
> 
> We got an email from #2's SENCO yesterday letting us know that she could go back if we wanted her to (EHCP for Autism), asking us if we needed any more support or whatever, and my first - and subsequent - reaction is that my kids have never been happier, healthier, more inquisitive about the world, or better behaved than when they've not been at school since March...
> 
> ...


If you can afford to and enjoy it, then why not?  There's essentially no regulation of home schooling.


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## kebabking (Jun 10, 2020)

Thora said:


> If you can afford to and enjoy it, then why not?  There's essentially no regulation of home schooling.



I'm scared they'll turn into weirdos. They might be very happy weirdos while we're doing it, but I'm not convinced it will help them much when they go out into the big wide world.

I'd prefer it if the world was different, or if they wouldn't have to go out into it eventually - but one day we won't be around to look after them.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 10, 2020)

Dad school would be fun as fuck though....


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## muscovyduck (Jun 10, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I'm scared they'll turn into weirdos. They might be very happy weirdos while we're doing it, but I'm not convinced it will help them much when they go out into the big wide world.
> 
> I'd prefer it if the world was different, or if they wouldn't have to go out into it eventually - but one day we won't be around to look after them.



I know someone who was homeschooled for a good few years and she is hideously normal and level headed. It's not like you're pulling them out of society is it? You could enrol them in swimming classes or scouts or whatever in the evenings to keep them used to that sort of larger group learning structure


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## spanglechick (Jun 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So who is being protected by social distancing at schools? The kids? They don't need protecting from the virus. The teachers? Unless they have underlying conditions, in which case surely they can be given the option to stay away and the all new testing regime can play a role, neither are they at a massive risk. The rest of us? Should young kids be physically distancing in even the medium term, with all the damage that brings, in order to keep adults safe due to the failings of adults?
> 
> I genuinely don't understand this process. It seems entirely irrational to me.


Kids can and do die from c-19, including a 13 year old in our borough.  Secondary school kids are of course up to 19  years old, and so not benefiting from being children in that sense.  

Teachers cannot just stay home if vulnerable. The govt says not. And at any rate, schools don’t have “spare” teachers, any more than spare classrooms.

Teachers usually have people at home, and children always do. Those people may be vulnerable, but they also might be going out to work themselves. Without distancing, there are around 800 households crossing paths in my average sized secondary every day. The potential for schools to be hubs of infection is significant.

Tracing new infection outbreaks and isolating those in 15min+ contact is going to be important. Again, in a normal secondary school where students have different lessons with different staff in different rooms several times a day, that’s potentially a huge number of people having to isolate every time there’s a new case. Hence the bubbles, capacity issues and restricted timetables.

My school has five zones and kids will stay in their own zone for learning/loos/socialising. Three zones for y10, one for key workers and one for sixth form. They’ll do one day a week. School will close on Tuesdays and Thursdays to deep clean. No canteen except limited free school meal options, eaten in their zone. Must bring all own equipment and drinking water. Y10 will be core Eng/Maths/Sci for first two weeks. All kids will be temp checked on entry and supervised as they wash hands. Can wear own PPE and must wear masks if travelling by bus.

They are playing NO games.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Dad school would be fun as fuck though....



You could teach them how to piss millions of pounds of tax cash up the wall, they’ll be a shoo-in for positions in the Cabinet


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## MickiQ (Jun 10, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Kids can and do die from c-19, including a 13 year old in our borough.  Secondary school kids are of course up to 19  years old, and so not benefiting from being children in that sense.
> 
> Teachers cannot just stay home if vulnerable. The govt says not. And at any rate, schools don’t have “spare” teachers, any more than spare classrooms.
> 
> ...


Which is a great plan for a short while, but how long can this go on for? a week? a month? a year? forever?


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## kebabking (Jun 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You could teach them how to piss millions of pounds of tax cash up the wall, they’ll be a shoo-in for positions in the Cabinet



Their foot drill would be fucking gleaming as well! Quite where that fits in within a curriculum and skill set to face the future with I'm not sure, but I had to do Pythagoras Theory at school, so fuck it....


----------



## kebabking (Jun 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Which is a great plan for a short while, but how long can this go on for? a week? a month? a year? forever?



School field. Loudhailer. Crack-on.


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## spanglechick (Jun 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Which is a great plan for a short while, but how long can this go on for? a week? a month? a year? forever?


It’s only the plan for five weeks.  After that, I don’t know.  Either we, culturally, say to ourselves “social distancing in workplaces is not worth the benefit to society” or we try to what we can safely.  But what teachers and parents shouldn’t be asked to accept come September is “back to normal in schools, but it’s too dangerous to open theatres and cinemas, and keep distancing in your office job.”


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## kebabking (Jun 10, 2020)

We've had an email to say that school are not intending to bring any more year groups in before summer holiday (17th July), and that while autumn term starts on the 3rd September, the head thinks it unlikely that  all 7 year groups, plus EY, will go back during September.

The curriculum at Dad School is therefore likely to be camping. 

Fucking A.


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## William of Walworth (Jun 10, 2020)

Thora said:


> If you can afford to and enjoy it, then why not?  *There's essentially no regulation of home schooling*.



Is there really not? No oversight?
That surprises me, but being a non-parent I know nothing ....


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## William of Walworth (Jun 10, 2020)

It surprises me really, that schools in Wales still seem to be planning on re-opening (for some year groups at least) on Monday 29th June.

Whereas England has kicked the school re-opening plans further down the road 

The Welsh Government has generally been a lot more cautious about a fair bit of other stuff.

Any thoughts planetgeli /others??


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## Thora (Jun 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> It surprises me really, that schools in Wales still seem to be planning on re-opening (for some year groups at least) on Monday 29th June.
> 
> Whereas England has kicked the school re-opening plans further down the road
> 
> ...


English schools are already open/can be open for nursery, Reception, Year 1 and Year 6 and from Monday Year 10 & 12.  
The main difference in plans was that the Govt said English primary schools should open full time to those years and prioritise getting the younger children in full time over opening to all possible years, whereas the Welsh Govt are planning on part time for all.

In practice though, lots of English schools either haven't opened, have opened only to older children or have offered part time - for example my middle child's school has not allowed nursery back and has only offered R/year 1 two days a week.


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 10, 2020)

kebabking said:


> School field. Loudhailer. Crack-on.


Yeah I can just imagine my wife teaching calculus standing in a field shouting through a megaphone


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 10, 2020)

Thanks Thora -- I need to re-read the DoE's recent statement/maybe some other stuff, then, as I could well have misunderstood things


----------



## Thora (Jun 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Is there really not? No oversight?
> That surprises me, but being a non-parent I know nothing ....


There's a duty for LAs to offer support but not really any obligation for parents to take it - parents have to provide a suitable education but there's no requirement to follow a curriculum, take exams, provide particular resources.


----------



## Thora (Jun 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Thanks Thora -- I need to re-read the DoE's recent statement then, I might have misunderstood it


The Govt. did initially say they wanted all other years back before the summer holidays and that's what they've now given up on.
It was always completely unworkable though - the guidance has classes capped at 15 instead of the normal 30-32 so would have needed twice as many classrooms and teachers which clearly Govt. won't provide.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> It surprises me really, that schools in Wales still seem to be planning on re-opening (for some year groups at least) on Monday 29th June.
> 
> Whereas England has kicked the school re-opening plans further down the road
> 
> ...



My view is that it is a surprise, it is a farce, and it's most likely the Welsh government playing one-up politics in a misguided attempt to appeal to popularism, thinking that they will get more people onside because there has been some clamour of "but what about the children?"

We're talking the last four weeks (and more of that 'four' in a moment) of a summer term where every pupil and teacher knows that even in mainstream this time is usually given over to end of term trips and incessant bloody videos/films. Having set aside 3 months of schooling I can guarantee that the vast majority of parents/carers and kids will see no point in returning for this period - and won't return. What would have been better would have been those in authority using this time to come up with proper plans for a structured return in September. Instead they are hoping the focus falls on some sort of normality being attempted, whereas in reality it will be a farcical failure.

I had a Teams meeting this afternoon with all staff and it was apparent from our management that there is no real structure or guidance being given to these weeks. We were directly told by our management that we may as well use this time for "experimentation" - do what we like. It will be childcare only, which for us is actually sort of part of our remit. But for mainstream? God help them. Videos for classes of six children overseen by a bored teacher.

Oh yeah, the "four" weeks. That's an extra week added on taking a week out of the summer holidays. Why? A) This wasn't negotiated or agreed with unions and B) that week will be given back in a 2 week half term in October. Much of the debate, from the impression we were given, has been about when this week's holiday is added i.e before or after the actual half term week. Vote seems to come down on before by the way. But the fact this has been a main part of the debate in the upper echelons of L.A education departments show what a farce this is. A random decision to give a week's childcare in the summer has taken precedence over actual necessary decisions about how things will attempt to run in the new normal in September. 

I don't know how mainstream school transport is going to work (buses of 30 kids). Our kids all arrive in taxis (1-3 children) or mini buses (8-10). Risk assessments have already been done and deemed taxis can only carry one pupil and mini-buses two pupils. And I assure you the L.A aren't going to be paying out for extra transport.

They should have left well alone and planned properly for September. I get the impression the authorities are not happy with the Welsh government.


----------



## Spandex (Jun 11, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Which is a great plan for a short while, but how long can this go on for? a week? a month? a year? forever?


Schools can reopen more widely when the number of people infected is well down and rest/trace/isolate is working properly (or until a vaccine turns up), same as reopening the rest of society. If the government put all their efforts into driving the numbers down and keeping them down instead of focusing on helping businesses make money again then I'm sure we'd be able to open everything up again sooner. It's their determination to lift lockdown before they should, because it's inconvenient, that's going to keep the infection numbers up and mean that schools have to put all these measures in place that stop them opening properly. Their mindset and approach is counterproductive. 

Johnson has made getting kids back to school more of an issue than it should've been by announcing it too soon and setting an unrealistically early date. If he'd bothered to consult the DoE or teachers unions then he'd have been told his plans were unworkable. But having announced it he's felt the need to plough on, creating chaos and confusion and achieving nothing, especially not his main aim of freeing up parents to go back to work. And having fucked it all up he's going to find it hard to gain trust when it is safe to open schools again.

Anyway, next thing to look out for is his big plan for a 'massive catch up operation' for pupils which he announced yesterday, but nobody noticed because of his social bubble announcement at the same time. Details to follow next week. Will it be a big load of nothing or will it be a cause of further mayhem? I'm assuming it'll be nothing useful. Anyone got any ideas about it?


----------



## Poot (Jun 11, 2020)

It was a short and sweet return to school for my daughter (year 6). Now that the rest of the school is returning she can no longer go. So she won't see the inside of a classroom until she starts secondary. Yikes.


----------



## Thora (Jun 11, 2020)

Poot said:


> It was a short and sweet return to school for my daughter (year 6). Now that the rest of the school is returning she can no longer go. So she won't see the inside of a classroom until she starts secondary. Yikes.


What are her school doing - not having Year 6 in but bringing in years that aren't due back yet?


----------



## Thora (Jun 11, 2020)

Spandex said:


> Anyway, next thing to look out for is his big plan for a 'massive catch up operation' for pupils which he announced yesterday, but nobody noticed because of his social bubble announcement at the same time. Details to follow next week. Will it be a big load of nothing or will it be a cause of further mayhem? I'm assuming it'll be nothing useful. Anyone got any ideas about it?


Boris will call on an army of volunteers to run summer schools.  There will be a huge backlog on DBS checks and none of the volunteers will be cleared until November.  Government will have forgotten that they need to employ cleaners and caretakers to run school buildings.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2020)

Thora said:


> Boris will call on an army of volunteers to run summer schools.  There will be a huge backlog on DBS checks and none of the volunteers will be cleared until November.  Government will have forgotten that they need to employ cleaners and caretakers to run school buildings.


But Serco dividends to shareholders hold up.


----------



## Poot (Jun 11, 2020)

Thora said:


> What are her school doing - not having Year 6 in but bringing in years that aren't due back yet?


Yeah. It wasn't a complaint btw, the other children need a shot at socially distanced school, too. I always thought it was odd that it was only year 6 and littlies. 

I have a lot to say about 'school volunteers' and feminism, everyone will be astonished to hear. But here is not the place. You can imagine that particular rant.


----------



## Poot (Jun 11, 2020)

For the avoidance of doubt (sorry), the rant starts off about how nobody is asking for volunteer electricians/engineers/binmen. But I won't bore you all with the rest of it, which is mainly about how much other 'volunteer' work has been done since lockdown started. There might be a vague tangent about PPE not fitting and then back to the main event about how fucking clueless Tories once again don't understand anyfuckingthing about what actually goes on in places like hospitals, schools and care homes, never mind looking after the home schooling and feeding a family and keeping everyone clean and germ-free (which are obviously nowhere near as important as things like hedge funds and futures trading and talking shit for a living so PLEASE don't bother to pay us the going rate.)

But I won't bore you with it.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 11, 2020)

Poot said:


> For the avoidance of doubt (sorry), the rant starts off about how nobody is asking for volunteer electricians/engineers/binmen. But I won't bore you all with the rest of it, which is mainly about how much other 'volunteer' work has been done since lockdown started. There might be a vague tangent about PPE not fitting and then back to the main event about how fucking clueless Tories once again don't understand anyfuckingthing about what actually goes on in places like hospitals, schools and care homes, never mind looking after the home schooling and feeding a family and keeping everyone clean and germ-free (which are obviously nowhere near as important as things like hedge funds and futures trading and talking shit for a living so PLEASE don't bother to pay us the going rate.)
> 
> But I won't bore you with it.


Please do bore us with it.


----------



## Poot (Jun 11, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Please do bore us with it.


Don't encourage me!


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 11, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Please do bore us with it.


I second that emotion, Poot. I'm so fucking mightily sick of people saying 'but won't somebody think of the children?' What the blistering fuck do you think we've been doing since this shitshow started? 

I look forward to seeing how we ensure every member of this volunteer army has a current enhanced DBS, has some sort of subject knowledge bla bla bla.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 11, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I'm scared they'll turn into weirdos. They might be very happy weirdos while we're doing it, but I'm not convinced it will help them much when they go out into the big wide world.
> 
> I'd prefer it if the world was different, or if they wouldn't have to go out into it eventually - but one day we won't be around to look after them.


How old are they? Send them back for A Levels so they can learn to smoke and take drugs


----------



## Thora (Jun 11, 2020)

Could kill a few birds with one stone - get furloughed hospitality/travel workers to "retrain" as teachers with a 6 week, fast track, hands on apprenticeship running the summer schools.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 11, 2020)

I'm due to start teacher training in September. I'm not supposed to be starting placements until January but if they do end up scraping around for anyone with a DBS check I might get sent to the coalface sooner than that I suppose...

e2a: I wonder if I'll get my £9,000 tuition fees back if I end up not getting any tuition


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How old are they? Send them back for A Levels so they can learn to smoke and take drugs





Thora said:


> Could kill a few birds with one stone - get furloughed hospitality/travel workers to "retrain" as teachers with a 6 week, fast track, hands on apprenticeship running the summer schools.



Yeah, I’m in travel and not doing much, happy to teach teens how to skin up, bump some K and so on.


----------



## elbows (Jun 11, 2020)

Oh for a country that was not quite so absurd due to centralisation. 



> But schools are clamouring for a strategy, and one they can help to shape rather than hearing it announced on television, that would allow them to get ready for a return to school, in whatever form that now might take.











						How did going back to school lose the plot?
					

After scrapping the plan for all primary years to return, what happens next for those out of school?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2020)

There are of course thousands of actors, musicians and dancers out of work for months still to come, many of whom would make excellent summer programme providers (dbs and funding permitting).


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 12, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm due to start teacher training in September. I'm not supposed to be starting placements until January but if they do end up scraping around for anyone with a DBS check I might get sent to the coalface sooner than that I suppose...
> 
> e2a: I wonder if I'll get my £9,000 tuition fees back if I end up not getting any tuition


PGCE SpookyFrank ?


----------



## Poot (Jun 12, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> There are of course thousands of actors, musicians and dancers out of work for months still to come, many of whom would make excellent summer programme providers (dbs and *funding permitting*).


Do you mean their own personal funding permitting? Because I think Mr Johnson may have in mind a volunteer army of grannies whose only reward will be to know that they were able to help someone. I don't think any pay will be involved as I understand it.


----------



## Thora (Jun 12, 2020)

It’s going to be a “mums army” of SAHM and grannies teaching in marquees in the school field...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 12, 2020)

S☼I said:


> PGCE SpookyFrank ?



Yup, secondary.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2020)

Poot said:


> Do you mean their own personal funding permitting? Because I think Mr Johnson may have in mind a volunteer army of grannies whose only reward will be to know that they were able to help someone. I don't think any pay will be involved as I understand it.


No - I meant that anyone doing a job should be paid properly. 


Performers, of course, haven't been eligible for furlough - and for many it's very hard to prove what they would have earned.


----------



## Spandex (Jun 12, 2020)

Thora said:


> It’s going to be a “mums army” of SAHM and grannies teaching in marquees in the school field...


A volunteer army of mums and dads has been trying to teach kids material prepared by professional teachers since March. That's why catch up sessions have been proposed.

How the fuck can a volunteer army of well meaning strangers trying to teach kids material prepared by professional teachers for a few weeks be the solution?


----------



## Poot (Jun 12, 2020)

Did anyone ever listen to Mitchell and Webb's Old Lady Job Justification Panel? It was a sketch where people justified what they did for a living and were usually told that they would feel better if they opened a nice little shop instead. 

I just can't help feeling that we have got things arse about face with regard to which jobs are paid well and which can be done by 'volunteers'. Let's leave our children's educations to the professionals and we can all have a crack at being Dominic Cummings or the Queen or something. I'd do it for free.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 12, 2020)

The “massive catch up exercise” could well be that old Tory reliable - unreasonable demand on teachers and schools followed by “culture war” on the unions who they will portray as the enemies of the (poor, working class and vulnerable) people. Classic Dom. They will prob ask teachers (and teaching assistants, cleaners, etc etc) to work through the summer holidays......


----------



## Mattym (Jun 12, 2020)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> The “massive catch up exercise” could well be that old Tory reliable - unreasonable demand on teachers and schools followed by “culture war” on the unions who they will portray as the enemies of the (poor, working class and vulnerable) people. Classic Dom. They will prob ask teachers (and teaching assistants, cleaners, etc etc) to work through the summer holidays......



This will be part of it. Saturday school, anybody?


----------



## weepiper (Jun 12, 2020)

Some Scottish plans are being footed. We had an email from the council (Edinburgh) today giving a bit of detail (going back on the 12th of August, likely that only a third of the school will be in at any one time, they are probably going to do it by year groups attending different days, Fridays will be home learning for everyone).









						Coronavirus: Details revealed for some schools' return
					

Edinburgh and Aberdeen councils hope to have a third of pupils in school buildings at any one time.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Aladdin (Jun 13, 2020)

Government over here announced on Friday evening without any consultation with stakeholders, that schooling will be available in July for certain SEN kids and they want summer  camps in DEIS schools. And they hope schools teachers and SNAs will just volunteer. And they've decider that all of a sudden Special Needs Assistants can be on their own with kids and teach them too. All for free...

I've worked solidly a minimum 10 hours a day during lockdown. Every day. Weekends too. Preparing lessons online. Teaching and assessing online. 

I actually need my holidays now asap. Cannot believe how disingenuous the dep of ed is here. And now the public is berating us saying we were off for months doing nothing and should be in classrooms now. I even heard one person say that we deserve all we get.


----------



## flypanam (Jun 13, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Government over here announced on Friday evening without any consultation with stakeholders, that schooling will be available in July for certain SEN kids and they want summer  camps in DEIS schools. And they hope schools teachers and SNAs will just volunteer. And they've decider that all of a sudden Special Needs Assistants can be on their own with kids and teach them too. All for free...
> 
> I've worked solidly a minimum 10 hours a day during lockdown. Every day. Weekends too. Preparing lessons online. Teaching and assessing online.
> 
> I actually need my holidays now asap. Cannot believe how disingenuous the dep of ed is here. And now the public is berating us saying we were off for months doing nothing and should be in classrooms now. I even heard one person say that we deserve all we get.


Yeah TES is reporting this...




__





						New Magazine Experience
					






					www.tes.com


----------



## Aladdin (Jun 13, 2020)

flypanam said:


> Yeah TES is reporting this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ireland obvs copying the UK ....cos they got covid response so right.
Not


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 13, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Ireland obvs copying the UK ....cos they got covid response so right.
> Not



#NotallofUK

Education is devolved in the UK. Wales seems to be making just as much a hash of things with no real plans, just announcements, and no consultation with unions. No way are they going to get teaching and support staff to work through holidays - neither are paid for them, but instead are paid pro-rata.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 23, 2020)

Sooo...my school will be doing a token reopening from the 29th but for three weeks, not four as hastily announced by the Welsh government. They did no consultation with the unions and the unions have said no thank you to what in effect would have been a voluntary extra week in July with the 'possibility' of a two week half term in October.

It's still not certain we will even open on the 29th. No PPE has been provided yet, including even basic stuff like marking tape for distancing. Being a PRU we don't even come under the L.A cleaners scheme and our Head is asking for volunteers to deep clean the school. Yes, really. Even to achieve this the volunteers would have to go on a cleaners course and that hasn't been provided yet either. Without any of this, we won't be reopening.

This is how local authorities think of their most vulnerable children. Provide nothing and ask for volunteering from staff.

Our SLT have actually been very good. A timetable has been prepared taking into account the most vulnerable staff. As a result of this, should we open, I will be doing one half day a week (others have two or three half days, the kids one half day each) with year 11 who have already left and who are unlikely to come in, which is a shame as I'd like a final chance to say goodbye to them.

But it's all a bit of a farce and I can see it not happening.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2020)

Heard nothing of summer school at mine. Closing on the 16th and I’ll be on a plane a couple of days later. They’re not even doing holiday club this year, staff need a break. I’ll be back mid august to open up the place for electricians and painters and to do a bit of fixing stuff before everything starts again. No idea what things will look like in September.


----------



## Thora (Jun 30, 2020)

My youngest kids’ school has just sent out plans for September (in the absence of any government guidance) - either all back with hand washing and staggered lunch/break times, or 50% in school 50% online.
Their plan is to split every class in half and they each do Mon&Tues one week, Wed-Fri following week.


----------



## baldrick (Jun 30, 2020)

I think guidance is supposed to be out on Friday but there was a leak via the Huff Post yesterday. If what that says is true then schools are going to be a major source of further outbreaks.


----------



## Thora (Jun 30, 2020)

Haven’t they just re-closed all Leicester schools? Seems like schools may need to have plans for 100%-0% attendance.


----------



## baldrick (Jun 30, 2020)

Thora said:


> Haven’t they just re-closed all Leicester schools? Seems like schools may need to have plans for 100%-0% attendance.


Yeah. No one really knows what they mean by "Leicester" though. The area encompassed by the city council is quite small. Additionally the outbreak seems to be confined to a particular area of Leicester rather than the city as a whole, regardless they seem to be pressing ahead with a lockdown that covers most of the district councils. Including the area I used to live which is 10 miles the other side of the city from the outbreak.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 30, 2020)

Hancock's explanation of the need to re-close schools in Leicester from Thursday seems to highlight the nub of the issue wrt safety. Whilst reiterating that, for the most part, school-children contracting Covid are little affected by the virus, once infected they are an effective means of accelerating community transmission. 

Leicester has all the hallmarks of looking like a 'pilot' for many other potential local 'lockdowns' that will see school closures.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 30, 2020)

baldrick said:


> I think guidance is supposed to be out on Friday but there was a leak via the Huff Post yesterday. If what that says is true then schools are going to be a major source of further outbreaks.


That’s the least of it.  It seems highly likely that the solution to the attainment gap is going to be “don’t let any kids who might underachieve in core subjects do any creative or practical subjects until next May. Or if it’s easier, make that the rule for all the kids. And that’s explicitly also true for gcse students, who don’t really need to do any enriching subjects, regardless of what that does to their total GCSEs count/ breadth of options at A level.”

It looks suspiciously like instead of there being any mitigation in how gcse and a level are examined next summer, the answer is to “drop weaker kids from less academic courses and give them more maths and English” - a timetabling impossibility, acknowledged by the guidance that schools may choose to do this to all the kids (allowing, I dunno, dance teachers to teach extra maths?).  And while I have hope that my very arts orientated school will stand its ground, the fear of taking a dip in annual gcse progress tables (and therefore local league tables) and thereby triggering a punitive ofsted inspection, will undoubtedly motivate huge numbers of schools to play it safe and sacrifice arts education (and other practical and vocational courses).

It’s all looking pretty fucking grim.  Notwithstanding my medical vulnerability having been dismissed by central govt as not something anyone will be worrying about any more.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 30, 2020)

Interesting to see the propagandising of the Tory apologists underneath Zoe Williams (I know, I know) latest article on the attempt to turn school reopening into a frontline in the “culture war”. They go from “kids can’t catch it” to ( when called out on that bullshit) “kids don’t transmit it” to (when pointed to the lack of evidence for that) the rather more honest Cummings-esque line of “OK, so some  teachers/TAs/Lunchtime Supervisors /cleaners are gonna die, tough, it’s a price worth paying for re-starting the economy”


----------



## baldrick (Jun 30, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> That’s the least of it.  It seems highly likely that the solution to the attainment gap is going to be “don’t let any kids who might underachieve in core subjects do any creative or practical subjects until next May. Or if it’s easier, make that the rule for all the kids. And that’s explicitly also true for gcse students, who don’t really need to do any enriching subjects, regardless of what that does to their total GCSEs count/ breadth of options at A level.”
> 
> It looks suspiciously like instead of there being any mitigation in how gcse and a level are examined next summer, the answer is to “drop weaker kids from less academic courses and give them more maths and English” - a timetabling impossibility, acknowledged by the guidance that schools may choose to do this to all the kids (allowing, I dunno, dance teachers to teach extra maths?).  And while I have hope that my very arts orientated school will stand its ground, the fear of taking a dip in annual gcse progress tables (and therefore local league tables) and thereby triggering a punitive ofsted inspection, will undoubtedly motivate huge numbers of schools to play it safe and sacrifice arts education (and other practical and vocational courses).
> 
> It’s all looking pretty fucking grim.  Notwithstanding my medical vulnerability having been dismissed by central govt as not something anyone will be worrying about any more.


I don't know how dropping subjects is going to help anyone with league tables given that the measure is Progress EIGHT. Sometimes students are given leeway to drop a subject they struggle with to help them do extra study for the others but that takes them from 10 to 9 or 9 to 8, not 10 to 6. Ten mediocre grades are better than six good ones in this context. 

And I know this is not something anyone here will be particularly bothered by but exam boards turnover will be hugely affected by the number of entries dropping by a third or more. Plus the shit show this year, lots of schools have paid full whack initially with the expectation there will be significant refunds. What the effect that will have on the future of qualifications I don't know, but it's unlikely to be good.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 30, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> That’s the least of it.  It seems highly likely that the solution to the attainment gap is going to be “don’t let any kids who might underachieve in core subjects do any creative or practical subjects until next May. Or if it’s easier, make that the rule for all the kids. And that’s explicitly also true for gcse students, who don’t really need to do any enriching subjects, regardless of what that does to their total GCSEs count/ breadth of options at A level.”



aka the Harris approach - who unsurprisingly are not shy to endorse this, since that's what they've been doing for years anyway:









						GCSE choices will narrow next year, says academy chain
					

Harris Federation questions if it is possible to maintain a broad range of subjects after lockdown.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I believe that there is some level of consultation on changing/adapting next year's exams though.

My first thought was that I'm going to end up teaching English next year - languages is always the first to get dropped (although my school are very good about insisting on a broad offer, so I'm hoping for the best).  I have seen it mentioned elsewhere that any non-desk practical based subjects will be at risk too from a logistical point of view.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 30, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> aka the Harris approach - who unsurprisingly are not shy to endorse this, since that's what they've been doing for years anyway:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I’ve heard unofficially is that the exam boards want teacher assessment to play a part but dfee aren’t happy and have thrown it back to them.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jul 2, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> What I’ve heard unofficially is that the exam boards want teacher assessment to play a part but dfee aren’t happy and have thrown it back to them.



Consultation opened today:









						Proposed changes to the assessment of GCSEs, AS and A levels in 2021
					

Proposals to modify the assessment requirements for some GCSEs, AS and A levels in response to disruption to education caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## nagapie (Jul 2, 2020)

Replacing exams with teacher assessment sounds like a brilliant idea, not only but also because financial cuts means that money could be redirected elsewhere. Dfee aren't happy but Covid may give them no choice again next year.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2020)

can this thread be moved to covid forum please? and maybe date take out of the thread title? thanks mods


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2020)

Edited: moved from other thread as this is more appropriate....

News from Berlin doesn't look great re: schools.

Summary... Berlin has 825 schools. Less than 2 weeks after them opening at least 41 of them have reported teachers or students being infected.









						Virus cases reported at 41 schools in Germany's capital
					

BERLIN (AP) — At least 41 schools in Berlin have reported that students or teachers have become infected with the coronavirus not even two weeks after schools reopened in the German capital. Daily Berliner Zeitung published the numbers Friday and city education authorities confirmed the figures...




					apnews.com


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Edited: moved from other thread as this is more appropriate....
> 
> News from Berlin doesn't look great re: schools.
> 
> ...


i make that about 5% (im shit at maths - is that right?)


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i make that about 5% (im shit at maths - is that right?)



Yup, not a huge percentage although that is in just 2 weeks.

I just can't see how even if the deaths and hospitalizations are low related to school infections that It still won't be hugely disruptive to classes and teaching with schools and some groups within them having to isolate regularly due to infection or a possible infection.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> can this thread be moved to covid forum please? and maybe date take out of the thread title? thanks mods



Have you reported this post of yours? The request is more likely to be seen if reported, rather than a mod happening across it at a later stage.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you reported this post of yours? The request is more likely to be seen if reported, rather than a mod happening across it at a later stage.


Yeah thanks I did


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yup, not a huge percentage although that is in just 2 weeks.
> 
> I just can't see how even if the deaths and hospitalizations are low related to school infections that It still won't be hugely disruptive to classes and teaching with schools and some groups within them having to isolate regularly due to infection or a possible infection.


Absolutely... Seems pretty high to me


----------



## oryx (Aug 21, 2020)

The cock-up over exam results is not inspiring confidence in the government to get the return to schools right.


----------



## zahir (Aug 21, 2020)

Children with long Covid









						Adults may not be the only Covid 'long haulers.' Kids have symptoms months after falling ill
					

Parents whose children have been battling symptoms as diverse as fatigue, breathlessness, chest pains, diarrhea and "covid toes" for weeks after suspected Covid-19 infection say there is little help to guide their kids' recovery.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## NoXion (Aug 23, 2020)

Fuck you Whitty, you spineless lump of fucking dogshit.



Small risk for kids? Oh of course, because only children are ever at schools, and they certainly don't have any older relatives at home to whom they might pass the virus onto. There's no fucking way that Whitty doesn't know that.

And the children who do catch the virus and suffer and die from it? I guess those kids are worthy sacrifices in the name of education. I think Whitty should argue the case in person with those parents whose children have fallen ill or died due to the virus, I'm sure they'll find such reasoning to be totally convincing.



> Prof Whitty said it looked as if "there is much less transmission from children to adults than adults to adults".



*That's because the schools are closed, you fucking donut!*



> Data shows that staff spreading the virus to other members of staff is "maybe actually more important than staff members catching it from pupils", Prof Whitty said.



Oh fuck off. You've fucking sold your soul so that you can be pimped out as a scientific authority by Johnson and his cronies. You fucking piece of shit.

The article even points out that there's not gonna be any vaccine soon, and the R-number has gone above one. Yet the fucking useless Tory government is chomping at the bit to restore normality. Cunts.


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## NoXion (Aug 23, 2020)

Boy, I really hope that the children who carry the virus asymptomatically don't end up having any kind of heart or lung damage that only manifests when they grow up to be adults. That would be fucking grim.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 23, 2020)

There's a joint statement from all of the Chief and Deputy Medical Officers, from the four nations of the UK, so it's not just Whitty .



> This is a consensus statement from the Chief Medical Officers and Deputy Chief Medical Officers of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales on the current evidence of risks and benefits to health from schools and childcare settings reopening.
> 
> It takes into account UK and international studies, and summaries of the scientific literature from SAGE, the DELVE Group of the Royal Society, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and data from the Office for National Statistics.
> 
> The current global pandemic means that there are no risk-free options, but it is important that parents and teachers understand the balance of risks to achieve the best course of action for their children.











						Statement from the UK Chief Medical Officers on schools and childcare reopening
					

Statement from the Chief Medical Officers and Deputy Chief Medical Officers of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales on the evidence of risks and benefits to health from schools and childcare settings reopening.




					www.gov.uk


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## Spandex (Aug 23, 2020)

It was announced last week at some point that the government would be having a push to reassure parents that schools are safe when they reopen, so the current crop of stories will be part of this. I expect to see more in in the next couple of weeks.

Public Health England have released a report on C-19 cases in English schools when they 'reopened' in June. Link here. 

It shows that there were a total of 67 coronavirus cases and 30 outbreaks detected in schools across England. Cases occurred mainly in primary school and early years settings and that there is a strong correlation between the regional incidence of Covid-19 and the number of outbreaks in educational settings. It aims to be reassuring by pointing out that up to 1.2 million children were at school in June, so outbreaks are uncommon.

I'm not sure how reassured I am by this. It shows outbreaks can happen under the absolute best case scenario - schools only had a maximum of three years back, often less, with children bubbled in small groups, against the backdrop of community transmission dropping towards a low point. The situation is going to look quite different when all years are back, without the possibility of spreading the kids out so much, especially once the weather turns and they're stuck inside more. And all that's without the possibility of a rise in cases in autumn/winter.

I don't think it's going to be as bad as some people fear, but it'll be worse than the sunny picture that the government want to paint.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 23, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I think Whitty should argue the case in person with those parents whose children have fallen ill or died due to the virus, I'm sure they'll find such reasoning to be totally convincing.


"On average, your dead kid is better off because he returned to school."


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## PTK (Aug 23, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> "On average, your dead kid is better off because he returned to school."


When do you think that the schools should re-open?


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 23, 2020)

PTK said:


> When do you think that the schools should re-open?


I don't know. The CMOs aren't wrong, assuming they're reading the stats properly, but that's not much comfort to the actual individuals that will be affected, whether that's families losing members because kids have brought infection home, or teachers dying. There is no right answer, unfortunately, and this is only going to roll on and on - there will be arguments next summer about whether that tranche of kids had a fair shot at their exams, and whether the score uplift this year has disadvantaged everyone coming along after.


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## planetgeli (Aug 23, 2020)

PTK said:


> When do you think that the schools should re-open?



It's not a question of when, an inference that seems to be based on uppity education unions never wanting a return because they all hate the kids, but 'how'. And we, school staff in education unions, are getting uppity because what we see instead of good practical advice is boxes being ticked and grand words said.

I work in education in a school in Wales. I've read in full the operational guidance for schools return. It's completely inadequate and based on fitting a version of the evidence to a political will to return, seemingly because that is what those in power think will get votes.

The argument for PPE is buried deep in the advice, and the advice is against PPE. All the emphasis is placed on hand wash hygiene, social distancing and the need for regular deep cleaning. Ignoring the fact that my particular school, being a PRU, doesn't even come under the county cleaning contract, meaning we are responsible for finding our own staff to voluntarily do deep cleaning (yes, really), the report blithely dismisses the efficacy of PPE, instead asking us to keep staff "at front of class" and a metre away from children. No mention is made of the thousands of teaching assistants whose job is to provide close-up 1:1 support for children. The best that is offered states; Following any risk assessment, where the need for PPE has been identified, *it should be readily available and provided by the employer.*

Note that word 'should'. There is no mandatory condition. Returning to work briefly in the summer term our staff found zero PPE provision. And for that matter minimal hand washing provision (we were provided with an outside wash basin that only had water in if the caretaker was available to keep it supplied - our caretaker covers two sites).

Like a lot of things in schools, the guidance has been cobbled together to tick boxes rather than provide proper practical support. The need for the correct piece of paper (much like risk assessments) takes precedence over practical detail. 

And in a pandemic, a fucking pandemic, that's shameful.

*No PPE is required when undertaking routine educational activities in classroom or school settings.*

Stuff the 'when'. It's about the 'how'. Except, for those in authority and those with votes to gain, it isn't.

Schools have always been disease transmission centres. I'm sick of hearing how the kids have nothing to fear. It's not just about the kids. It's about the innumerable amount of contacts that come from kids-teaching staff-families of all.


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## Thora (Aug 23, 2020)

I'm a school governor and we do have a "safer" plan with small groups, social distancing etc but it means children being in on a rota with 50% in person and 50% at home learning.  That is the school management's preferred option, but it's not going to allowed by government.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2020)

Thora said:


> I'm a school governor and we do have a "safer" plan with small groups, social distancing etc but it means children being in on a rota with 50% in person and 50% at home learning.  That is the school management's preferred option, but it's not going to allowed by government.


Tbh after all the thousands of needless deaths caused by the government's pisspoor handling of the pandemic I'd be gobsmacked if they made some uncharacteristically sensible decisions around opening schools along the lines you suggest


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 23, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> It's not a question of when, an inference that seems to be based on uppity education unions never wanting a return because they all hate the kids, but 'how'. And we, school staff in education unions, are getting uppity because what we see instead of good practical advice is boxes being ticked and grand words said.
> 
> I work in education in a school in Wales. I've read in full the operational guidance for schools return. It's completely inadequate and based on fitting a version of the evidence to a political will to return, seemingly because that is what those in power think will get votes.
> 
> ...


Yes, it was mentioned three or four times during my C19 Health and Safety induction that PPE was the least effective and last method of measures the college would be taking or promoting.


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## andysays (Aug 23, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Yes, it was mentioned three or four times during my C19 Health and Safety induction that PPE was the least effective and last method of measures the college would be taking or promoting.


Those of us who have studying risk assessment can confirm that PPE is generally considered the last line of measures considered to mitigate risk, but there are generally supposed to be various other steps taken to minimise risks including introducing safer ways of working where these are possible, which seem fairly sketchy in the government's return to school plans, to say the least.

You certainly shouldn't be putting all your efforts into PPE when other measures could be much more effective at reducing risk, assuming they are actually adhered to, which I appreciate is likely to be particularly difficult in a school setting.

And the very first thing any risk assessor should be asking is, is this hazardous activity actually necessary in the first place, or is there some way it can be avoided?


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## wtfftw (Aug 23, 2020)

I just don't get it. It's not like PPE makes washing your hands less effective. It's not wearing two condoms. It's a bit more like using a condom and the pill - you still take the pill properly.


What are the arguments against PPE in secondary schools?


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## planetgeli (Aug 23, 2020)

andysays said:


> You certainly shouldn't be putting all your efforts into PPE when other measures could be much more effective at reducing risk



Who said anything about putting ALL your efforts into PPE? What many of us want to know is why it is being denigrated and disparaged, put to the bottom of the list, to the point where the Welsh Guidance actually says,

*Schools should also have a process for removing face coverings when learners and staff who choose to use them arrive at school,*

That is directly telling us we must remove face coverings on arrival at school.


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## zahir (Aug 23, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I work in education in a school in Wales. I've read in full the operational guidance for schools return. It's completely inadequate and based on fitting a version of the evidence to a political will to return, seemingly because that is what those in power think will get votes.



Does the guidance have anything to say about ventilation in indoor spaces? I’d see this as a critical issue.


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## planetgeli (Aug 23, 2020)

zahir said:


> Does the guidance have anything to say about ventilation in indoor spaces? I’d see this as a critical issue.



In a 51 page report...one line

*Where possible ensure appropriate ventilation.*

Seriously. It doesn't even feature in their hierarchy of risk controls, where PPE comes last at the bottom of a triangle. Nice diagrams though.

There are two pages given over to which codes we should use in the school register for non-attendance.


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 23, 2020)

I'm happy enough with the college's guidelines but it remains to be seen what happens when students arrive. Bubbles will not work. So many students won't adhere to the rules (staff often haven't since I've been back). I'm very worried. And it all still seems like "Please, do this...if you like"


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## MickiQ (Aug 23, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> In a 51 page report...one line
> 
> *Where possible ensure appropriate ventilation.*
> 
> ...


That's either leave the windows open and sod the weather or follow kebabking's strategy of a megaphone on the sports field


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## zahir (Aug 23, 2020)

Here’s an article about ventilation, in schools and elsewhere, though from a US perspective.









						Coronavirus is in the air. Here’s how to get it out.
					

How to make indoor air safer (but not necessarily safe) during the pandemic.




					www.vox.com


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## 8ball (Aug 23, 2020)

My nephews are going back to school on different weeks (in Wales).
Not too sure why they are staggering it.


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## Spandex (Aug 24, 2020)

It's a sign of how completely useless Gavin Williamson is that he's been sidelined and Boris Johnson is now being put forward as a face of trust and competence to reassure parents it's safe to send kids back to school.


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## Petcha (Aug 24, 2020)

Spandex said:


> It's a sign of how completely useless Gavin Williamson is that he's been sidelined and Boris Johnson is now being put forward as a face of trust and competence to reassure parents it's safe to send kids back to school.



I heard that Williamson's wife is a teacher. I bet she's not really looking forward to walking into the staff room on the first day back!


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 24, 2020)

Spandex said:


> It's a sign of how completely useless Gavin Williamson is that he's been sidelined and Boris Johnson is now being put forward as a face of trust and competence to reassure parents it's safe to send kids back to school.


TBH I'm surprised that Williamson wasn't required to fall on his sword right after the GCSE results were released - I thought that was the only reason they were keeping him around.


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## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

Scottish headteacher on R4 'Today' this morning saying how, irrespective of any guidance to the contrary, they'd asked kids & parents to wear masks to & fro school & visors (for staff?) in school. Seemingly driven, in large part, by 27% vulnerable staff & 5 resignations citing concerns. An interesting line that may play out in many other schools with numbers of staff nearing retirement age?


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Scottish headteacher on R4 'Today' this morning saying how, irrespective of any guidance to the contrary, they'd asked kids & parents to wear masks to & fro school & visors (for staff?) in school. Seemingly driven, in large part, by 27% vulnerable staff & 5 resignations citing concerns. An interesting line that may play out in many other schools with numbers of staff nearing retirement age?


If I was a headteacher, I'd for damn sure be mandating masks for everyone in my school.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> In a 51 page report...one line
> 
> *Where possible ensure appropriate ventilation.*
> 
> ...


Says a lot about the priorities of the authors


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## planetgeli (Aug 24, 2020)

8ball said:


> My nephews are going back to school on different weeks (in Wales).
> Not too sure why they are staggering it.



"Because".

We've been told all children must be in class by September 15th. Before this we've been told to arrange some sort of stagger whereby 50% of the pupils are in at any one time. 

It's figures pulled out of an arse to look like something is being done because "something must be done". At the same time as we are constantly being told in that back-to-school guidance that everything is being done within the bounds of "the science" we are fed this meaningless drivel of numbers that are simply politically driven.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 24, 2020)

Petcha said:


> I heard that Williamson's wife is a teacher. I bet she's not really looking forward to walking into the staff room on the first day back!



Jesus - poor woman.


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## Petcha (Aug 24, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Jesus - poor woman.



I just googled it. She's a former primary school teacher. Rather amusingly, from the same link, it seems they almost separated when he had an affair with a junior colleague in his days as a fireplace salesman (yes, really)


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## hegley (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Scottish headteacher on R4 'Today' this morning saying how, irrespective of any guidance to the contrary, they'd asked kids & parents to wear masks to & fro school & visors (for staff?) in school. Seemingly driven, in large part, by 27% vulnerable staff & 5 resignations citing concerns. An interesting line that may play out in many other schools with numbers of staff nearing retirement age?


Seventeen teachers at Dundee school contract Covid-19


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## spanglechick (Aug 24, 2020)

hegley said:


> Seventeen teachers at Dundee school contract Covid-19


Shitting hell!


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## gaijingirl (Aug 24, 2020)

Christ.


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 24, 2020)

Fuck's sake. It's going to be a nightmare innit.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 24, 2020)

Well I'm really looking forward to going back on Thursday now.


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## Sir Belchalot (Aug 24, 2020)

Recent U.S. study which doesn't bode well:









						Looking at children as the silent spreaders of SARS-CoV-2
					

A new study has found that children infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 were shown to have a significantly higher level of virus in their airways than hospitalized adults in ICUs for COVID-19 treatment.




					news.harvard.edu


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## NoXion (Aug 24, 2020)

hegley said:


> Seventeen teachers at Dundee school contract Covid-19



So much for there being "much less transmission from children to adults than adults to adults" as claimed by Dr Fuckwhitty.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2020)

NoXion said:


> So much for there being "much less transmission from children to adults than adults to adults" as claimed by Dr Fuckwhitty.



But, there's nothing in that report that suggest the teachers caught it from a child.


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## NoXion (Aug 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, there's nothing in that report that suggest the teachers caught it from a child.



The virus spreads in schools. That should be enough. The focus on child-adult transmission is bullshit, a red herring being promulgated by a purported authority that has already demonstrated itself to be compromised.


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## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2020)

NoXion said:


> The virus spreads in schools. That should be enough. The focus on child-adult transmission is bullshit, a red herring being promulgated by a purported authority that has already demonstrated itself to be compromised.


So what's the solution then? Leave the schools closed? If so for how long? until there is a vaccine  which will be the end of the next year at best. Johnson and Williamson are making a complete hash of handling this but they are right about one thing. Children and especially those from more deprived backgrounds will lose out if they don't return to school and the longer it goes on the worst it will get.


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## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> So what's the solution then? Leave the schools closed? If so for how long? until there is a vaccine  which will be the end of the next year at best. Johnson and Williamson are making a complete hash of handling this but they are right about one thing. Children and especially those from more deprived backgrounds will lose out if they don't return to school and the longer it goes on the worst it will get.


The 'solution' to this rests in the dim, distant past when the Government should have developed a strategy to crush the virus with a timely and effective 'lockdown'....but we are where we are, with persistent community transmission.

Given the shitshow we're starting from, I can't see why the DfE could not have aimed for a phased return of pupils, possibly starting with 1 day/week/year group to enable re-connection with their school, work to be set/taken in and then see what happened to the health & well-being of pupils, their families/communities and the adults that work with them in schools.


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## NoXion (Aug 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> So what's the solution then? Leave the schools closed? If so for how long? until there is a vaccine  which will be the end of the next year at best. Johnson and Williamson are making a complete hash of handling this but they are right about one thing. Children and especially those from more deprived backgrounds will lose out if they don't return to school and the longer it goes on the worst it will get.



Education is important. But human health and lives are even more so. Given that poor and BAME kids are more likely to be exposed to the virus, the crocodile tears from the government about "deprived backgrounds" are especially sickening. 

As well the more piecemeal approach outlined by brogdale , the government needs to stop fucking bullshitting us. If they want kids back in school, then parents should be made properly aware of the risks, and not be fed speculative bullshit dressed up as scientific fact.


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## zahir (Aug 24, 2020)

Some American guidance on reopening schools



			https://schools.forhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2020/06/Harvard-Healthy-Buildings-Program-Schools-For-Health-Reopening-Covid19-June2020.pdf


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 24, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> At the same time as we are constantly being told in that back-to-school guidance that everything is being done within the bounds of "the science" we are fed this meaningless drivel of numbers that are simply politically driven.


Numbers are science too. Don't make the mistake (that the government want you to make) of thinking that any reference to 'science' is only talking about virology/epidemiology/health - behavioural and economic science are the driving factors behind most of their decisions.


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## Badgers (Aug 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Children and especially those from more deprived backgrounds will lose out if they don't return to school and the longer it goes on the worst it will get.


My sister teaches quite a lot of said children and they have kept their schools open throughout lockdown. When not at school she has been offering remote learning and support to said children. All the staff at her school have been doing the same.


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## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Numbers are science too. Don't make the mistake (that the government want you to make) of thinking that any reference to 'science' is only talking about virology/epidemiology/health - behavioural and economic science are the driving factors behind most of their decisions.


Well exactly; the government's approach to re-opening schools makes complete sense from the perspective of (very) short term, economic recovery. Beyond that, it looks like a very risky and potentially costly, counter-productive punt that puts the health of millions at further risk.


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## Thora (Aug 24, 2020)

hegley said:


> Seventeen teachers at Dundee school contract Covid-19


And cases at a linked primary and after school club.

After school clubs are going to be a real issue, especially the ones that collect from multiple schools and then have the kids all mixed.


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## Thora (Aug 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, there's nothing in that report that suggest the teachers caught it from a child.


I guess it's impossible to know though as presumably only staff/children with symptoms were tested - so we only know many more adults were symptomatic than children, not the numbers that are actually infected.  Could be that loads of the children are silently infectious and have spread it to staff - in fact that makes more sense as children will not be social distancing from each other or staff, but adults will be avoiding contact with each other.


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## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2020)

Badgers said:


> My sister teaches quite a lot of said children and they have kept their schools open throughout lockdown. When not at school she has been offering remote learning and support to said children. All the staff at her school have been doing the same.


What sort of response has she had to offering remote learning?, Mrs Q school has also been offering remote learning and whilst it started off without about 70-80% of the kids turn up for online lessons this quite rapidly fell to more like 30-40% quite quickly.
This is a school rated 'excellent' as well with motivated kids and pushy parents aplenty.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Beyond that, it looks like a very risky and potentially costly, counter-productive punt that puts the health of millions at further risk.


Without knowing all of the data, you can't even say that with any certainty. It might be that the research on the long-term health benefits of education (in terms of life expectancy through greater economic attainment) mean that on average, the number of children that will die from going back to school now are much lower than the cumulative impact of missing out on education measured in the long-term.

Which won't mean much to parents who lose kids, kids that accidentally kill their grandparents, or the families of dead teachers.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The 'solution' to this rests in the dim, distant past when the Government should have developed a strategy to crush the virus with a timely and effective 'lockdown'....but we are where we are, with persistent community transmission.



Whilst I think we can all agree that an earlier lock-down would have saved a hell of a lot of lives, I am struggling with the logic of connecting that with the current situation of 'persistent community transmission', when countries that locked-down earlier are reporting larger spikes in new cases than the UK.

I was reading a report on the Republic of Ireland earlier, they went into lock-down ahead of us, and was considered to be doing very well, but their 7-day average of new cases, adjusted for population size, is now running at around 35% more than the UK.   

They are still moving towards re-opening schools, together with all four of the UK nations, and most of Europe, although I accept the devil will be in the details of how different countries are actually managing it.


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## spanglechick (Aug 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, there's nothing in that report that suggest the teachers caught it from a child.


Why does it matter? The nature of the post Covid school is that teachers will be in and out of different rooms, using different computers all day.  It’s now less safe as a workplace than before lockdown because of the measures introduced to protect the students.


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## Badgers (Aug 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> What sort of response has she had to offering remote learning?, Mrs Q school has also been offering remote learning and whilst it started off without about 70-80% of the kids turn up for online lessons this quite rapidly fell to more like 30-40% quite quickly.
> This is a school rated 'excellent' as well with motivated kids and pushy parents aplenty.


During term time it was very high but I didn't ask for %. They keep remote learning (to a smaller degree) through the summer holidays to support kids who might have missed school or are behind so the last 5-6 weeks have been less so.


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## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Whilst I think we can all agree that an earlier lock-down would have saved a hell of a lot of lives, I am struggling with the logic of connecting that with the current situation of 'persistent community transmission', when countries that locked-down earlier are reporting larger spikes in new cases than the UK.
> 
> I was reading a report on the Republic of Ireland earlier, they went into lock-down ahead of us, and was considered to be doing very well, but their 7-day average of new cases, adjusted for population size, is now running at around 35% more than the UK.
> 
> They are still moving towards re-opening schools, together with all four of the UK nations, and most of Europe, although I accept the devil will be in the details of how different countries are actually managing it.


Dunno about that; by international comparison the UK is pretty poor.


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## elbows (Aug 24, 2020)

They were hoping to get the general levels of virus in the community down to much lower levels in the summer than has been achieved, in order that the challenges of autumn/winter and schools reopening could begin with the benefit of a much lower infection level starting point.


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## andysays (Aug 24, 2020)

elbows said:


> They were hoping to get the general levels of virus in the community down to much lower levels in the summer than has been achieved, in order that the challenges of autumn/winter and schools reopening could begin with the benefit of a much lower infection level starting point.


But having clearly failed to get infection levels down to a reasonable point, they've decided to push ahead anyway, either because not to do so would be a sign of weakness, or because they're not that concerned if infection and death rates go up further as a direct result of schools reopening.


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## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

andysays said:


> But having clearly failed to get infection levels down to a reasonable point, they've decided to push ahead anyway, either because not to do so would be a sign of weakness, or because they're not that concerned if infection and death rates go up further as a direct result of schools reopening.


It's about freeing workers from child-care in order to drive their accumulation again.


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## elbows (Aug 24, 2020)

andysays said:


> But having clearly failed to get infection levels down to a reasonable point, they've decided to push ahead anyway, either because not to do so would be a sign of weakness, or because they're not that concerned if infection and death rates go up further as a direct result of schools reopening.



Yes I am not a fan of their approach or the couple of idiots on this forum who think there is low risk from schools and that we should press on regardless.

This week will probably feature some wriggling over the issue of mask wearing in schools for older children, since the WHO changed their stance on that and Scotland is making noises about possibly calling for masks in this setting too.


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## alex_ (Aug 24, 2020)

Badgers said:


> My sister teaches quite a lot of said children and they have kept their schools open throughout lockdown. When not at school she has been offering remote learning and support to said children. All the staff at her school have been doing the same.



it’ll be more deprived kids who won’t have been engaging with remote school, and the middle classes who will have been - and private school kids who’ve been doing remote online lessons delivered by the same teachers since March.

compare the top 5% ( already ahead and no change in education since March ) and the bottom 5% ( already behind and no education since March )

This is why they want everyone back at school    - the stats will be terrible


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## redsquirrel (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Dunno about that; by international comparison the UK is pretty poor.


Overall absolutely. And I agree that the push to open schools (and universities) is stupid and dangerous.

But the UK has - so far - seen a smaller rise in rate of new cases than other countries over the last couple of months. Variety of reasons for that, many probably little to do with gov decisions.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2020)

elbows said:


> Yes I am not a fan of their approach or the couple of idiots on this forum who think there is low risk from schools and that we should press on regardless.
> 
> This week will probably feature some wriggling over the issue of mask wearing in schools for older children, since the WHO changed their stance on that and Scotland is making noises about possibly calling for masks in this setting too.



Already happening.



> The use of face coverings in corridors and communal areas of secondary schools is set to be introduced in Scotland.
> 
> The government is in the "final stages" of consultations with teachers and councils about having pupils wear face coverings while moving between classes.
> 
> ...











						Coronavirus: Scottish high schools to introduce new face covering rules
					

Ministers are consulting on the use of face coverings in corridors and communal areas in Scotland's secondaries.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Overall absolutely. And I agree that the push to open schools (and universities) is stupid and dangerous.
> 
> But the UK has - so far - seen a smaller rise in rate of new cases than other countries over the last couple of months. Variety of reasons for that, many probably little to do with gov decisions.
> View attachment 227707


It's a really interesting question about why that might be the case. For my own 2pworth...I suppose that population characteristics and national cultures of compliance/'rebellion' must have quite an impact?
I'm sure it's all very complex, though.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's a really interesting question about why that might be the case. For my own 2pworth...I suppose that population characteristics and national cultures of compliance/'rebellion' must have quite an impact?


Yeah probably partly that. Also I'd put quite a bit down to physical things (weather, population density & distribution) and things like term dates (German schools have started to go back of course)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 24, 2020)

BB1 is due to start college in 2 weeks, got an email today saying that it will be one week in college followed by a week remote learning at home, so only 50% of cohorts in at any one time. However it starts by stating that they had been hoping to hear updated guidance from government in order to come up with a working plan, but they have heard jack, cos the useless government has wasted the past few weeks screwing up A levels and GCSE's.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2020)

This is worth noting, from the link I've just posted above.



> Health authorities are working to tackle a number of coronavirus "clusters" in Scotland, including one centred on the Kingspark School in Dundee.
> 
> A total of 17 members of staff have tested positive, as well as two pupils, and all households connected to the school have been told to go into self-isolation for two weeks.
> 
> ...


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's about freeing workers from child-care in order to drive their accumulation again.


Yeah, that as well. 

My either/or post was a bit simplistic, tbh, it's a combination of various factors.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 24, 2020)

alex_ said:


> This is why they want everyone back at school - the stats will be terrible


#worldbeating


----------



## wtfftw (Aug 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> This is worth noting, from the link I've just posted above.


I like the last bit. Why be concerned about community transmission getting into schools? Oh yeah, maybe because schools are communities for transmission within. Am I missing something?


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 24, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Numbers are science too. Don't make the mistake (that the government want you to make) of thinking that any reference to 'science' is only talking about virology/epidemiology/health - behavioural and economic science are the driving factors behind most of their decisions.



These numbers have nothing to do with science, they are to do with politics and logistics.

At the end of lockdown, Wales pulled another figure, 33%, for children to return. This wasn't science either. But it caused particular concern to the SLT of schools because the logistics of organising transport for (which?) 33% and classes for (which?) 33% was deemed a nightmare and a failure once it was over.

So instead of that, in the third week of July (the last week of term), this new figure of 50% was announced. No scientific explanation was ever given for the change because it had nothing to do with science. Science wasn't saying it was safe for 50% of pupils to return, and how could it, being as schools are of differing sizes both in pupil numbers and physical space. The 50% figure was given because it was hoped 'half' was an easier number for SLTs to work with logistically.

It is nothing to do with science. The 33% figure was the Welsh government trying to get one up on England who were only introducing certain year groups and 33% of all pupils was bigger and more inclusive than that. It changed to 50% in the third week of July, to be acted on in the first two weeks of September, for reasons I've given. I know of SLTs who are still bemused by all of it.


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## sheothebudworths (Aug 24, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> I like the last bit. Why be concerned about community transmission getting into schools? Oh yeah, maybe because schools are communities for transmission within. Am I missing something?



The _blame. _

It's naughty teens going to parties (if they'd been born when I was they could've just pretended to be older and 'safely' gone to the pub  ) and teachers being idiots in the staffroom, obvs - NOT that we have completely failed to reduce cases enough, with the more recent emphasis on getting us out _to spend_, or that schools literally only just opened in Scotland/Germany etc.

We are seeing an inevitable spread because there has been no time or effort or money put into really thinking that through, along with introducing some really thorough testing measures, and some actual fucking help around how we could sensibly work to bring in as many kids in at a time, in a way that actually protects the community.

Nah, all the 'effort' is put into paying out millions to any useless operation who's bunged the cunts some pound notes before - try chucking that money toward schools/la's to increase the workable space, their online learning and testing, maybe?

Track and trace is fucked and now we're also running out of home tests too Coronavirus home test kits run out in England and Scotland - but that egotistical, inept, corrupt cunt has been off on his hols,_ pretending to camp - _and even Whitty and his lot seem to have given up raising even the slightest, quiet objection and are now giving advice on the basis of accepting that we must just think of the children and fuck the impact on _anyone else_, overriding how the kids may feel about_ that_ later, too.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 24, 2020)

I especially enjoyed hearing on the news today that teachers - during their "well-earned teabreak" - should be careful to social distance and observe good hand hygiene.

What fucking teabreak?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 24, 2020)

I think they mean those 10min spent crying in the toilet.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 24, 2020)

If only I had 10 mins. I have to fit a piss, a cry and a bit of existential self-questioning into 5, and I still have to check my emails during


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> So what's the solution then? Leave the schools closed? If so for how long? *until there is a vaccine  which will be the end of the next year at best.* Johnson and Williamson are making a complete hash of handling this but they are right about one thing. Children and especially those from more deprived backgrounds will lose out if they don't return to school and the longer it goes on the worst it will get.



Agree with *all* of this post _except_ that I think the bolded bit is too much of an assumption! 

In that sentence, if you replaced your words 'which will ... ' with the words 'which in the worst case scenario, might ... ', than I wouldn't be adding this derail to the thread 

Sorry!


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 25, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> But the UK has - so far - seen a smaller rise in rate of new cases than other countries over the last couple of months.


Except our peak was a few weeks behind a lot of other countries in the first place - you can see it in your graph.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 25, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> I especially enjoyed hearing on the news today that teachers - during their "well-earned teabreak" - should be careful to social distance and observe good hand hygiene.
> 
> What fucking teabreak?


What fucking social distance? I work in an office designed for 4 people and shared by 9!


----------



## nagapie (Aug 25, 2020)

I want to go back, my kids want to go back, my students want to go back. But it's hard to see how it's going to be anything but a total disaster because of all the failures to set up anything at all that looks like a competent and cohesive plan to limit this virus.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2020)

If I were still teaching, I'd sure as hell be wearing a mask/visor.

The real win-win would be when your 25 year old 'line manager' sent you home for doing so.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2020)

Running out or home test kits but the expensive telly advertising for testing is still running. 

Little or no checking at all UK airports from all destinations. My neighbour returned from Croatia yesterday morning and did not see a thing leaving or arriving. 

Fine to open the cramped, underfunded schools and then blame the underpaid teachers. 

#worldbeating


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 25, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Except our peak was a few weeks behind a lot of other countries in the first place - you can see it in your graph.


Yes but that does not alter the fact that presently the rate of rise in new cases is lower in the UK than many other nations. And it remains true even if you compare the most recent UK data with data from other countries a few weeks ago.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes but that does not alter the fact that presently the rate of rise in new cases is lower in the UK than many other nations. And it remains true even if you compare the most recent UK data with data from other countries a few weeks ago.


Whilst that's statistically correct, the (very useful) graph that you posted up-thread, demonstrates that, in part, that reflects the fact that the UK never lowered its rate of daily confirmed cases to the extent shown in other, comparable states and has maintained a worryingly high and stubborn rate throughout.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 25, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Johnson and Williamson are making a complete hash of handling this but they are right about one thing. Children and especially those from more deprived backgrounds will lose out if they don't return to school and the longer it goes on the worst it will get.



Yes. This will be the same Williamson who offered laptops for deprived 15 year olds on the 18th April. Those laptops never materialised. The longer it goes on, the worse it will get.

I'm fairly sick of a lot of this. I'm sick of the government getting some sort of kudos for pretending to stick up for deprived pupils while not actually doing anything that merits that kudos. And I'm sick of teaching staff being tarred with the brush of not caring because they dare to speak out in wanting proper hygiene provision, a part of which is PPE. When we ask for that we are told we are putting PPE above everything else, when the reality is we are asking for it alongside everything else. If I go in a shop in England I have to wear a mask. I've just been to my GP surgery and seen someone turned away for not having a mask. But when I go back to school next week I am being told to remove my mask before I enter my disease transmission centre.

We all want pupils back and those of us who work with the most deprived pupils understand better than Williamson ever could do how much it will affect that cohort if they don't return. But we work in schools and we know how schools spread disease. We want schools back safely for everyone. I don't see why asking for that simple thing should mean we have it turned around on us every time that we are the ones blocking deprived pupils returning. 

Johnson and Williamson are not concerned about deprived children, if they were they'd do something about deprivation. They are cynically using this against unions when their real concern is the economy. It pisses me off they are being given credit for being right about anything.

Now, about those laptops...


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 25, 2020)

Posted also in the Corona in the UK thread but deffo fits here too:









						Exclusive: England set to U-turn on masks in schools
					

Tes understands that the government is set to announce that wearing face masks will be near-mandatory in communal areas of secondary schools in England




					www.tes.com


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Posted also in the Corona in the UK thread but deffo fits here too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Following contemporary UK politics is becoming easier; listen carefully to what any representative of the Johnson regime says and the polar opposite will result.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 25, 2020)

nagapie said:


> What fucking social distance? I work in an office designed for 4 people and shared by 9!



Well that's every London school really.  Fuck-all space.  Not that I get the impression that any of the people making these decisions have been into a school recently.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 25, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Not that I get the impression that any of the people making these decisions have been into a school recently.


Or at least not a school that the great unwashed have to attend. Just look at the complete lack of any kind of accounting for the up-close personal work that TAs do in state schools with children with learning difficulties.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 25, 2020)

Why the fuck would the government want to claim that masks are unnecessary? I just don't fucking get it. It's not like anyone worth listening to is claiming that masks are a panacea or a substitute for other measures. It would cost them nothing. Is it just bourgeois stubbornness?


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 25, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Why the fuck would the government want to claim that masks are unnecessary? I just don't fucking get it. It's not like anyone worth listening to is claiming that masks are a panacea or a substitute for other measures. It would cost them nothing. Is it just bourgeois stubbornness?



I'm assuming they object to the extra £33.50 it will cost to supply masks which is obviously a tipping point over the £100 billion this has cost so far.

Yesterday I went past Next. Two floors, roughly the size of about 6 school classrooms that would hold 180 pupils.

Big sign on the door - "Maximum of 33 people in shop at one time".


----------



## NoXion (Aug 25, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I'm assuming they object to the extra £33.50 it will cost to supply masks which is obviously a tipping point over the £100 billion this has cost so far.



But the extra deaths and illness will surely cost more than that?

I struggle to understand how those fucking Oxbridge twats think, in a "how fucking stupid and arrogant are they" kind of sense, not because they actually seem smart or anything.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 25, 2020)

NoXion said:


> But the extra deaths and illness will surely cost more than that?
> 
> I struggle to understand how those fucking Oxbridge twats think, in a "how fucking stupid and arrogant are they" kind of sense, not because they actually seem smart or anything.



Indeed. I don't have an answer. But I do feel like I'm living in an alternative universe a lot lately. Where peak stupidity and peak callousness somehow get plaudits. And peak brazenness in the form of Jenrick's housing fraud (nicely forgotten by most, was only £40 million after all) and, fuck me, Cumming's Downing Street garden TV spectacular.

The arrogance is off the scale.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 25, 2020)

I don't get why not masks in school, certainly secondary. Honestly it seems to me that it makes more sense to wear them in schools or when visiting friends/family than it does in a shop where you're not in there for all that long and are moving around all the time.


----------



## agricola (Aug 25, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Why the fuck would the government want to claim that masks are unnecessary? I just don't fucking get it. It's not like anyone worth listening to is claiming that masks are a panacea or a substitute for other measures. It would cost them nothing. Is it just bourgeois stubbornness?



This all stems from them still not having any actual plan, or (at best) not having exercised the plan to understand what they should do in the event of these things happening.  Combine that with the centralization of decision making and you probably have multiple departments asking No.10 "what do we do" and getting the annoyed NO response of some overpromoted toff who thinks making a decision is the defining characteristic of leadership.

If they had a plan and worked out how to implement it,  this issue would not have arisen - they'd have understood how to respond to it (FWIW it would probably have involved keeping schools open, ensuring an appropriate number of supply teachers were on hand, ensuring rapid testing for any kid / member of staff who might have been exposed and appropriate financial support for the affected households).  Instead they are being stupid, both over this and the rather more potentially catastrophic thing that is "kids are fine, they aren't at any risk".


----------



## 8ball (Aug 25, 2020)

agricola said:


> This all stems from them still not having any actual plan...



I think this covers it.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2020)

Good tweet:


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 25, 2020)

*Pupils in England will no longer be advised against using face masks in secondary schools after Boris Johnson made an 11th-hour U-turn days before students head back to the classroom. *

 But before you go thinking the Tories have gone sensible.

*The change risks a major backlash from Conservative MPs, some of whom had publicly challenged him not to change tack for schools in England. One said the idea of pupils wearing masks in schools went “way too far”  

 Huw Merriman, the Tory MP for Bexhill and Battle and chair of the transport select committee, said masks in schools would “further downgrade the learning environment. Like every other risk in our daily lives, we need to embed Covid and proportionately live with it.” 


The Tory backbencher Marcus Fysh said: “Masks should be banned in schools. The country should be getting back to normal not pandering to this scientifically illiterate guff,” he said. “ It is time to end the fear. And keep it away from our kids thank you very much.”*










						Boris Johnson drops advice against face mask use in English schools
					

Boris Johnson makes another coronavirus U-turn days before return to classrooms




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## elbows (Aug 25, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> *The Tory backbencher Marcus Fysh said: “Masks should be banned in schools. The country should be getting back to normal not pandering to this scientifically illiterate guff,” he said. “ It is time to end the fear. And keep it away from our kids thank you very much.”*



Fysh has form, the following quote is from well before the pandemic:



> Economist and political blogger Alex Andreou said Mr Fysh was arrogant and smug, and showed "impenetrable stupidity" on the show, while local Lib Dem candidate Mick Clark said the Yeovil MP is "detached from reality".











						100s of angry people attack MP 'detached from reality' after TV show
					

The Somerset MP has come in for some stick after appearing on Newsnight




					www.somersetlive.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2020)

Boris Johnson makes U-turn and abandons face masks advice for secondary schools
					

The government announces the policy shift for England after Scottish pupils were told to wear face coverings in corridors.




					news.sky.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2020)

It was clear this U-turn was coming, the WHO changed their advice over the weekend, Sturgeon signalled on Monday that a change in the guidance was imminent in Scotland, then confirmed the position was changing on Tuesday. Johnson, in an interview during the day yesterday, said they were looking at the changing scientific advice, and confirmed it late yesterday, as did Northern Ireland, I am sure Wales will do the same today.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Boris Johnson makes U-turn and abandons face masks advice for secondary schools
> 
> 
> The government announces the policy shift for England after Scottish pupils were told to wear face coverings in corridors.
> ...



Just read that, so it's only mandatory in certain areas and up to schools in other areas.



> Face coverings will be mandatory in communal areas and corridors for children in towns and cities that are subject to stricter coronavirus restrictions
> 
> But while headteachers will retain discretion over the use of face masks in schools in other parts of England, the government will drop guidance that they should not be used.



Bit fucking wishy washy isn't it?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 26, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Bit fucking wishy washy isn't it?


This is the response to pretty much every single announcement they’ve made since the start of this entire shitshow.


----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2020)

Johnson speaks.

The rain in Scotland falls mainly on the people who are too slow to learn the lessons of this pandemic.



> "What they found [in Scotland] was that it was raining outside, people were coming in and they were congregating in the corridors and the move to face coverings they thought was sensible," he said.



Also:



> He said wearing them in classrooms would be "nonsensical" because "you can't teach" or "expect people to learn with face coverings".



You cant teach a stubborn Tory how to come to terms with the important role of masks, or expect them to learn about face coverings without dragging their heels and disrupting the whole class of 2020-21.

I'm having to break the link because otherwise the forum is breaking it by thinking its media BBC - Home /news/live/world-53913625


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 26, 2020)

Well there has been an outbreak in kings park dundee and the day after hugging my niece every day for a week I've found out 1 pupil at her dundee school has also tested positive. Great.


----------



## andysays (Aug 26, 2020)

Is there a sensible medical reason why they couldn't test all pupils and staff before returning to school, say the week before so the results were available before they actually returned?

I know this wouldn't eliminate *all* risk, but it would surely help to reduce it significantly.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2020)

andysays said:


> Is there a sensible medical reason why they couldn't test all pupils and staff before returning to school, say the week before so the results were available before they actually returned?
> 
> I know this wouldn't eliminate *all* risk, but it would surely help to reduce it significantly.



There's around 9 million pupils in English schools, so that would be impossible.


----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2020)

And they still havent got the test capacity to even implement the care home testing regime they promised ages ago.


----------



## thismoment (Aug 26, 2020)

Lots of school children take the bus to school. I wonder what will happen to the rules regarding limited number of passengers allowed on buses at a time. I guess the buses will just end up at normal capacity as can’t see the number of buses increasing, well either that or more walking to school?


----------



## andysays (Aug 26, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> There's around 9 million pupils in English schools, so that would be impossible.





elbows said:


> And they still havent got the test capacity to even implement the care home testing regime they promised ages ago.


I take those points, but those are logistical reasons rather than medical ones. They've had months to prepare for this, but seem not to have done this or many of the other things that could have been done.

So, does anyone know under what circumstances/for what reason the various pupils who have been reported as testing positive since returning to school have been tested?


----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2020)

Well logistics matter and I dont think even a competent government would be able to test 9 million in a short space of time. The USA, which I am certainly not mentioning as an example of a competent government, peaked at under a million tests in a single day and has fallen back to more like 600-700 thousand per day more recently.

Medical orthodoxy would rarely dream of desiring such a thing either, it would not be considered necessary and appropriate, and even epidemiology in this country learnt over very many decades to live with sentinel surveillance systems rather than comprehensive, mass scale diagnostics testing. Now its certainly true that the orthodox approach is partly responsible for the poor response in the first place, but it was quickly forced to adapt considerably after the traditional approach went down in flames. But these adaptations still have to work within the bounds of deliverable logistics rather than impossible ideals.

Dont get me wrong, ideally in a pandemic we would have routine, regular testing for huge amounts of people in all the important scenarios. There is no sign of that happening because the numbers involved would be eyewatering. I still hope the situation improves via other sorts of testing coming online and then hopefully scaling up, eg I would like a bunch more saliva spit tests with impressive turnaround times.

Progress has not been good enough and most of the points reports have made about what needed to be done during summer to prepare for the challenges of autumn/winter have not been dealt with to anything like a satisfactory degree. Unless levels of general viral circulation remain low, these failings are likely to be exposed in a big way.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Aug 26, 2020)

andysays said:


> I take those points, but those are logistical reasons rather than medical ones. They've had months to prepare for this, but seem not to have done this or many of the other things that could have been done.
> 
> So, does anyone know under what circumstances/for what reason the various pupils who have been reported as testing positive since returning to school have been tested?



I just read that they are offering every school a total of TEN testing kits each before the wide reopening starting on Tuesday, so whatever the existing circumstances that have led to tests in Scotland, they're not applying them here. Monday is a bank holiday, too.


*English schools to receive just 10 coronavirus testing kits each*





Sally Weale
*Schools in England are to receive just 10 Covid testing kits each* ahead of the start of the autumn term next week, the government has revealed.
The kits were part of the government’s attempts to reassure anxious parents and staff that every possible measure was being taken to make the return to school as safe as possible, but the volume of tests available to schools has been described as “completely inadequate”.
Schools will also receive “a small amount” of personal protective equipment including clinical face masks, aprons, gloves, visors and hand sanitiser in a one-off delivery, provided free of charge by the Department of Health and Social Care.
School standards minister Nick Gibb said:


> All pupils are returning to school for the start of the autumn term – delivering on our national priority to get all pupils back to the classroom, which is the best place for their education, development and wellbeing.
> “This week schools and colleges will begin to receive their first home testing kits as well as personal protective equipment to use in the very rare situations in which it may be required.
> “I hope this acts as additional reassurance to parents that schools are ready to welcome children back to school, adding to the growing parental confidence shown in recent opinion polls.”


Dr Mary Bousted, joint general secretary of the National Education Union, said: “If the government says Covid testing kits will be available in schools then they need to be available in the right volume in order that they can be effectively used. If it’s 10 per school then it’s completely inadequate. The government is losing all credibility.”
According to Department for Education guidance, schools can request more test kits if required but they should only be
offered in exceptional circumstances where an individual may not be able to access a test elsewhere. Students and staff should ordinarily visit a testing site.

ETA, from the Guardian feed (think I saw it in a broader article, too - will have a look)...
Included here - Confusion over face masks as some schools in England could relax rules within days


----------



## sheothebudworths (Aug 26, 2020)

Tbf, I have enjoyed the couple of pics from his visits today when he is suddenly pretending to give a fuck - 






Scathing teens


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> I just read that they are offering every school a total of TEN testing kits each before the wide reopening starting on Tuesday, so whatever the existing circumstances that have led to tests in Scotland, they're not applying them here. Monday is a bank holiday, too.
> 
> ETA, from the Guardian feed (think I saw it in a broader artcile, too - will have a look)...
> 
> ...


Minister looks into camera..._I've ensured that our robust system has sent testing kits and PPE into every school in England..._whingeing fucking Marxist teachers...


----------



## weepiper (Aug 26, 2020)

Pahahahaa the kids in that second picture sheo!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 26, 2020)

I suddenly heard the grange hill theme


----------



## andysays (Aug 26, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> I just read that they are offering every school a total of TEN testing kits each before the wide reopening starting on Tuesday, so whatever the existing circumstances that have led to tests in Scotland, they're not applying them here. Monday is a bank holiday, too.
> 
> 
> *English schools to receive just 10 coronavirus testing kits each*
> ...


And as I mentioned on (I think) a different thread when the news emerged of eight pupils in a Glasgow school testing positive the day after they'd returned, testing once they've come back and had a chance to infect their school mates seems less than ideal.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Aug 26, 2020)

andysays said:


> And as I mentioned on (I think) a different thread when the news emerged of eight pupils in a Glasgow school testing positive the day after they'd returned, testing once they've come back and had a chance to infect their school mates seems less than ideal.



Well, yes - I mean I am not objecting to your sensible idea - but it's not going to happen is it?_ Care homes_ don't have enough tests - we still don't even have the pretend numbers of tests they are supposed to have, eh? 
Do _hospitals_ have enough tests? I have no idea.
Or have we just spunked more millions, safely shored up into private contracts, who will predictably fuck it all up instead, while we focus on 'the economy'. 
Obvs _schools_ have fuck all, though - but let's just open them all anyway!

My daughter's school had already put into place future plans for masks to be worn in common areas just _before_ the summer holidays, btw (helped, possibly, that our la was one of those that rejected the earlier plans around how year groups should return in June). 
As support staff in another school, very close by, I've still had no notice of any plans, despite those being promised (three weeks ago but with no timescale) and chasing it up with a week to go now.

I really, really want kids back but I am - well, I feel_ legitimately_ - worried. Not catastrophising - just really feeling the lack of any fucking planning, after months. I am worried about the impact I may have on other people too, with no direction and nothing sensible having been put in place in the meantime.. It's the knowledge really, that it's absolutely being made up as we go, that adds to the general anxiety.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Aug 26, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> Tbf, I have enjoyed the couple of pics from his visits today when he is suddenly pretending to give a fuck -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My old school! I'm proud of them all.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Aug 26, 2020)

PursuedByBears said:


> My old school! I'm proud of them all.



Brilliant! Every pic I've seen today has clearly been of kids who're either wise to the fact that they have been roundly fucked or (with the risk of patronising them) who have been told by their parents to pull their best sulky DEEP TEEN face/body language, upon the entrance of that incompetent, fucking idiot - I just love them either way


----------



## Spandex (Aug 26, 2020)

I think the government would like schools to be safe, but lack the vision, drive, determination or will to actually do what's been needed to make sure they are safe. If they were serious about it they'd have spent the last months throwing resources at schools - money, people, equipment, empty buildings, whatever is required. But where's the profit in that? It's all like too much effort, and maybe it'll all work out okay. Instead, all they've offered is words; whether it's Johnson baracking a class of embarrased and bored kids or Whitty quoting unreassuring stats to reassure people or the endlessly changing guidance being poured into schools. 

That's reflective of their whole approach to Covid. Big words matched with minimal action.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 26, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Whilst I think we can all agree that an earlier lock-down would have saved a hell of a lot of lives, I am struggling with the logic of connecting that with the current situation of 'persistent community transmission', when countries that locked-down earlier are reporting larger spikes in new cases than the UK.
> 
> I was reading a report on the Republic of Ireland earlier, they went into lock-down ahead of us, and was considered to be doing very well, but their 7-day average of new cases, adjusted for population size, is now running at around 35% more than the UK.
> 
> They are still moving towards re-opening schools, together with all four of the UK nations, and most of Europe, although I accept the devil will be in the details of how different countries are actually managing it.




They are ... and it will be an unmitigated disaster.
No social distancing worth its salt. 32 kids in classrooms squashed together.
This ... was the suggested covid isolation area in one school. A shed.





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com
				




I heard that one local school had a staff meeting. Socially distanced but still a few staff have been diagnosed with covid19 since.

Another school...the headmaster had parents walking round the school with him and nobody wearing masks. Staff are all to wear masks indoors in second level schools and in primary schools where social distancing cannot be maintained. Pupils are alsi to wear masks indoors. 

There are classrooms here with 38 children crammed together. It will be a disaster.
Older teachers will end up sick. As will those who were considered high risk but not high enough risk to be allowed work from home.

We have 600 ICU beds in the ENTIRE country.
Think about that...

1,000,000 children go back to school this week. Thats nearly 1/4 of the population. Plus 8000 teachers and SNAs.
Second wave??? It will be a tsunami.


😥😥


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's about freeing workers from child-care in order to drive their accumulation again.



Sadly  you are right. 
Economics has trumped health.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Aug 26, 2020)

Spandex said:


> I think the government would like schools to be safe, but lack the vision, drive, determination or will to actually do what's been needed to make sure they are safe. If they were serious about it they'd have spent the last months throwing resources at schools - money, people, equipment, empty buildings, whatever is required. But where's the profit in that? It's all like too much effort, and maybe it'll all work out okay. Instead, all they've offered is words; whether it's Johnson baracking a class of embarrased and bored kids or Whitty quoting unreassuring stats to reassure people or the endlessly changing guidance being poured into schools.
> 
> That's reflective of their whole approach to Covid. Big words matched with minimal action.



I think you're right, except that we're not even getting the big words.
As I understand it, they also loudly offered some additional funding - OMG, COVID! HAVE SOME MONEY, SCHOOLS - but which was never spread out where it needed to be in the first place, then announced a payrise for teachers - to recognise the work they do - but where schools must actually forcibly absorb that cost, so that loads of schools are now even _worse off_ than they were before, while they battle to address their own issues in terms of making the buildings - the available space - safe for everyone.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 27, 2020)

Still. The parents could still have a half price, tax payer funded meal indoors


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 27, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Older teachers will end up sick.


Teachers and other school staff, plus a not inconsiderable number of children, will end up dying. Wouldn't be surprised to see thousands of lawsuits against schools by the end of the year.


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> Is there a sensible medical reason why they couldn't test all pupils and staff before returning to school, say the week before so the results were available before they actually returned?
> 
> I know this wouldn't eliminate *all* risk, but it would surely help to reduce it significantly.



and also test monthly. Otherwise its the same situation daily.


----------



## andysays (Aug 27, 2020)

kalidarkone said:


> and also test monthly. Otherwise its the same situation daily.


"sorry, can't get the tests..."


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> "sorry, can't get the tests..."


Yes.......


----------



## trashpony (Aug 27, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Still. The parents could still have a half price, tax payer funded meal indoors



He means mums, doesn't he? Men have meaningful chats, women gossip.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 27, 2020)

trashpony said:


> He means mums, doesn't he? Men have meaningful chats, women gossip.



One school I heard of had signs up "no parents / guardians beyond this point" at the gate. Yet all the Junior infant class parents were allowed to walk their little darlings into class and stay beside them til they settled. So ... 28 infants plus 28 parents plus staff all i one room.  
Like wtf???


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 27, 2020)

PursuedByBears said:


> My old school! I'm proud of them all.


I particularly like the girl witht the glasses in the second pic, her  embarrassment at being there virtually leaped off the screen and punched me in the face.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 27, 2020)

17,500 children in Scotland were tested last week but only 49 of them came back positive.








						Coronavirus in Scotland: Almost 17,500 children tested last week
					

The number of children being tested has soared since schools returned - but only 49 tested positive last week.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## trashpony (Aug 27, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> One school I heard of had signs up "no parents / guardians beyond this point" at the gate. Yet all the Junior infant class parents were allowed to walk their little darlings into class and stay beside them til they settled. So ... 28 infants plus 28 parents plus staff all i one room.
> Like wtf???


We were never allowed to do that at infant school - the kids were peeled off you (if necessary) at the school door. No going into the building at all. Much better for the kids, covid or no covid


----------



## Cloo (Aug 27, 2020)

I do wonder if it would make some sense to plan for longer school holidays this year - eg a 2-week half term, 4-weeks Xmas hols, 2 weeks Feb half term to at least give things a bit more space, time for families to isolate if they do have it and not bring it to school etc. I mean, I'm sure there's loads of reasons why not, but perhaps it would add some level of predictability and mitigation? 

Son's school, a bit oddly, is doing entrance time by surname group (eg A-D, E-H,etc) and then, more understandably, exit by year group. So son's day will be 9-3.40, which isn't bad.

Waiting to hear about timing of daughter's school as she may be able to pick him up some days on her way home, as I think she's generally finished by 3.15, but that could change under current circs. Son's school is encouraging his year and up (so Y5 and 6) to walk themselves to avoid overcrowding, and if son didn't have the common sense of a flea, I'd be all up for him walking himself. But he's way too capable of walking under a car - shame, as his sister could have done it at that age, but not him and it's just a bit too far and too many roads/driveways to walk across and be confident that he'd pay attention.


----------



## Thora (Aug 27, 2020)

Surname's more sensible than year group, as if like me you have children in nursery, Y2 and Y6 and each year has a 10 minute slot, you end up spending two hours a day waiting at school


----------



## Thora (Aug 27, 2020)

Waiting but NOT lingering/congregating/gossiping


----------



## Thora (Aug 28, 2020)

Today's update is that 6 & 3 yo's school have decided over 5s need to wear masks to come into and leave school


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 28, 2020)

I can't wait to see what us coaches are instructed to do about absence this year. A lot of our target setting and time is dealing with attendance percentages yet as soon as anyone gets a sniffle they'll be off for ten days and if anyone actually gets it their whole class will also be off.


----------



## elbows (Aug 28, 2020)

Thora said:


> Today's update is that 6 & 3 yo's school have decided over 5s need to wear masks to come into and leave school



Sounds a bit like Spain.









						Spain to make children over six wear masks at school
					

Spanish schoolchildren aged six and over must wear masks to class, the government announced on Thursday, unveiling a plan to reopen schools just days before the start of the new academic year.




					uk.reuters.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 29, 2020)

Jesus, late Friday night the government finally releases loads of new guidelines that schools must put in place by the time the open on Tuesday. This government just gets more and more crap.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 29, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus, late Friday night the government finally releases loads of new guidelines that schools must put in place by the time the open on Tuesday. This government just gets more and more crap.


Where can these be found?

And does anyone know what the schools are supposed to do if they find students that have been at school have been tested positive? Does it all shut down again?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 29, 2020)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Where can these be found?
> 
> And does anyone know what the schools are supposed to do if they find students that have been at school have been tested positive? Does it all shut down again?












						Coronavirus: 'The incompetence is insulting' - Govt attacked over last-minute COVID-19 rules for schools
					

Education leaders have criticised the timing of the guidance, which comes days before schools reopen in England.




					news.sky.com
				




Seems the whole bubble must isolate if one person in it (or attached to it, sibling, parent etc.) gets the bug. No guidance on the size of bubbles, BB2's will be a year group, so 60 + staff...


----------



## Thora (Aug 29, 2020)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Where can these be found?
> 
> And does anyone know what the schools are supposed to do if they find students that have been at school have been tested positive? Does it all shut down again?











						COVID-19 contain framework: a guide for local decision-makers
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## Thora (Aug 29, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Coronavirus: 'The incompetence is insulting' - Govt attacked over last-minute COVID-19 rules for schools
> 
> 
> Education leaders have criticised the timing of the guidance, which comes days before schools reopen in England.
> ...


It’s going to get tricky for secondary that might have bubbles of 200 (a year group) but the French teacher teaches 5 year groups - if they test positive then is that the whole school off?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 29, 2020)

weepiper said:


> 17,500 children in Scotland were tested last week but only 49 of them came back positive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


as a percentage thats really low, but how many cases would there have been in a months time if that testing didnt take place? 
to me that story just highlights how crucial testing is


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 29, 2020)

Releasing info late on the Friday of a bank holiday weekend has got to be deliberate, not merely incompetent


----------



## ska invita (Aug 29, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Releasing info late on the Friday of a bank holiday weekend has got to be deliberate, not merely incompetent


im going with incompetent - they seem to be on the backfoot here, still scrabbling around to knock things into shape - the story of the whole pandemic


----------



## Cloo (Aug 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> Surname's more sensible than year group, as if like me you have children in nursery, Y2 and Y6 and each year has a 10 minute slot, you end up spending two hours a day waiting at school


Yeah, I figured it was to keep families together. It's all within 20 mins at our school I think (8.40, 8.50, 9.00)


----------



## zahir (Aug 29, 2020)

The guidance









						How schools can plan for tier 2 local restrictions
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 29, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Coronavirus: 'The incompetence is insulting' - Govt attacked over last-minute COVID-19 rules for schools
> 
> 
> Education leaders have criticised the timing of the guidance, which comes days before schools reopen in England.
> ...


Ok good. I think my daughter's bubble is the whole year.

Can't imaging there is going to be enough testing though.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> It’s going to get tricky for secondary that might have bubbles of 200 (a year group) but the French teacher teaches 5 year groups - if they test positive then is that the whole school off?


That is a very good point.


----------



## wtfftw (Aug 29, 2020)

I think the idea is that the teacher is completely immune because they've stood further away.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Aug 30, 2020)

I've finally had the plan and the risk assessment back from my school.
My daughter goes to the school next door and they have planned for masks to be worn in halls and common areas, since just before the start of the summer holidays.

That's not going to be adopted in my school and what we've been provided with is a plan for the canteen alone (so, how the kids will come in and get food - with only the _risk assessment_ for the actual kitchen, which is small and circular - I work in both).

The kids will come in, in staggered year groups (potentially 300, each time) and they won't eat in the canteen. That _has_ been set out to ensure social distancing (but involves us passing food to them - they can't help themselves) but as far as I'm concerned, means we are effectively in a bubble with the whole school, on a daily basis.

There are vague plans for the _kitchen_ (we have two outside 'pods' which won't be open but will be used to prepare food and there will be a reduced menu) but it sounds like we will have to sort out our own arrangements for that, ultimately and while I'm really mindfull about the work schools have been left to deal with on their own, I'm fucking pissed off about that - that nothing looks to have been worked out directly around us.

I'm trying not to walk in full of panic but I don't feel looked after and I am also really confused about how this impacts on the lives of me/my family/my friends -> outwards, and the risk I might present, along with my daughter, who _wants_ to go back to school.

(ETA - for a point of reference, I am trying to arrange a meeting with my oldest friend, who is having palliative chemo for stage 4 cancer, in a different city. I'm hoping to see her before I go back if she's up to it - but I don't want to present her with any risk/benefit decision beyond me going back to work, if not)


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2020)

Would the school aged you fake a cough or symptoms to get a couple of weeks off school?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2020)

My new department at college is moving all delivery on Wednesdays to online including personal development sessions I deliver. All students and all staff WFH. What's the betting I'm instructed to be on site? This is the problem with having a boss in charge of a team who all work in other teams (us Success Coaches work within subject areas).


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Would the school aged you fake a cough or symptoms to get a couple of weeks off school?


Fuck yeah, and if I was a teacher I'd have a new cough every week and be dipping the thermometer in my tea. Cunts want me to go back to an unsafe workplace with no real plan, got to look out for yourself


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Fuck yeah, and if I was a teacher I'd have a new cough every week and be dipping the thermometer in my tea. Cunts want me to go back to an unsafe workplace with no real plan, got to look out for yourself


The problem is there are also many many students depending on you.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 1, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Fuck yeah, and if I was a teacher I'd have a new cough every week and be dipping the thermometer in my tea. Cunts want me to go back to an unsafe workplace with no real plan, got to look out for yourself



Being off sick as a teacher is more work than being at work.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> The problem is there are also many many students depending on you.


Then they should be learning from your example and faking illness as well. It will serve them well in the long term

And depending on you to do what? Lie and gaslight them about how safe the school environment is for them and their families


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Then they should be learning from your example and faking illness as well. It will serve them well in the long term


I ended up getting taken down the disciplinary route at a previous college as I d been off with heavy colds/chestiness four times totalling 10 days. Not sure how anyone would dare in the current situation


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Then they should be learning from your example and faking illness as well. It will serve them well in the long term


Forget the teachers. Thus government have set the bar very very high.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Fuck yeah, and if I was a teacher I'd have a new cough every week and be dipping the thermometer in my tea. Cunts want me to go back to an unsafe workplace with no real plan, got to look out for yourself


mind it's not a rectal thermometer
and that your tea's not iced. that might raise a few eyebrows


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Forget the teachers. Thus government have set the bar very very high.


i'd like to see johnson get the high jump


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Would the school aged you fake a cough or symptoms to get a couple of weeks off school?


when i was 16 i got off swimming for a term by saying i had a perforated eardrum. no one ever checked.

coughs and colds so banal


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 1, 2020)

Mrs Q has received what she refers to as the "Battle Plan" for next week, each of Y7-11 are a single bubble and Y12/13 make up the 6th bubble. Each bubble gets its own colour coded area of the school they are expected to stay in with dedicated toilets/eating areas.  There are staggered start times  (per year) from 8.25 to 9.00. Our kids are grown now but there was a time when we had three kids at school together and there are probably parents now who are going to find themselves spending up to half an hour at the gate. There are only 2 entrances to the school so Y10 will have to cross the Y11 zone and Y8/Y9 will have to cross the Y7 zone to get to theirs. She reckons about two weeks max before it collapses into chaos.


----------



## thismoment (Sep 1, 2020)

.


----------



## thismoment (Sep 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Mrs Q has received what she refers to as the "Battle Plan" for next week, each of Y7-11 are a single bubble and Y12/13 make up the 6th bubble. Each bubble gets its own colour coded area of the school they are expected to stay in with dedicated toilets/eating areas.  There are staggered start times  (per year) from 8.25 to 9.00. Our kids are grown now but there was a time when we had three kids at school together and there are probably parents now who are going to find themselves spending up to half an hour at the gate. There are only 2 entrances to the school so Y10 will have to cross the Y11 zone and Y8/Y9 will have to cross the Y7 zone to get to theirs. She reckons about two weeks max before it collapses into chaos.



I’m curious what the bubble arrangements for staff are?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2020)

thismoment said:


> I’m curious what the bubble arrangements for staff are?


The whole school and the families/friends/etc of every person in the school.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> The whole school and the families/friends/etc of every person in the school.


and the bar staff and customers of the nearest hostelry and off licenses


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 1, 2020)

thismoment said:


> I’m curious what the bubble arrangements for staff are?


She didn't tell me so I went and asked (piquing her curiosity since she doesn't know about Urban), Apparently TA's and SEN support staff will be dedicated to a bubble whereas teachers will move between bubbles as needed but remain at least 2m from the pupils at all times. There is apparently one whole sentence dedicated to this fact in the plan., she isn't happy about it.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 1, 2020)

Inset day. Was alright but despite the rules of no more than 5 in a room there were pretty quickly 10 or 11 staff in the staffroom. Also, out of about 20 staff (possibly more) only 2 of us wore masks. We've been asked to wear visors rather than masks with the kids. School have provided them. They're shit. I'll be wearing my mask.

I also do not give it long before it collapses into chaos. Cases rising in surrounding countries. Somehow (via wishful thinking probably) a lot of our staff seem oblivious to this. I even heard one "I can't go through all that again." Well you're probably going to have to...


----------



## thismoment (Sep 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> She didn't tell me so I went and asked (piquing her curiosity since she doesn't know about Urban), Apparently TA's and SEN support staff will be dedicated to a bubble whereas teachers will move between bubbles as needed but remain at least 2m from the pupils at all times. There is apparently one whole sentence dedicated to this fact in the plan., she isn't happy about it.



Thanks for asking. Gosh, I imagine some teachers end up teaching all/most of the year groups.

I wonder if that means that if a teacher that teaches multiple year groups tests positive for COVID the year groups that they taught within a certain time frame would have to also self isolate. 

You know, I’ve found that COVID guidelines lead to me asking a question, which is answered, which then leads to more questions.Eeek!


----------



## thismoment (Sep 1, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Inset day. Was alright but despite the rules of no more than 5 in a room there were pretty quickly 10 or 11 staff in the staffroom. Also, out of about 20 staff (possibly more) only 2 of us wore masks. We've been asked to wear visors rather than masks with the kids. School have provided them. They're shit. I'll be wearing my mask.
> 
> I also do not give it long before it collapses into chaos. Cases rising in surrounding countries. Somehow (via wishful thinking probably) a lot of our staff seem oblivious to this. I even heard one "I can't go through all that again." Well you're probably going to have to...



Are staff meant to socially distance queue outside the staff room to make a cuppa?its not break time is long enough to make a cuppa and drink it


----------



## elbows (Sep 1, 2020)

For some strange reason I dont find this reassuring:



> More than one in 10 pupils in Scotland were absent from school last week - but the Scottish government said other winter infections, and not coronavirus, are to blame.
> 
> Only about 21,000 of the 73,000 absences at the end of last week were recorded as Covid-related, with ministers saying it was common for other viral infections to spread after a "prolonged break" from school.





> Covid-related absences include "a positive test, showing symptoms, self-isolation, quarantining, and parents not sending their child to school against public health guidance".
> 
> The Scottish government has said it is important for parents to be able to distinguish between possible Covid-19 symptoms - a new, continuous cough, a high temperature or a loss of smell or taste - and other winter infections, so children do not stay off school unnecessarily.



I'm afraid I was reduced to laughter when I read that.

From BBC live updates page at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53981717


----------



## Wilf (Sep 1, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Inset day. Was alright but despite the rules of no more than 5 in a room there were pretty quickly 10 or 11 staff in the staffroom. Also, out of about 20 staff (possibly more) only 2 of us wore masks. We've been asked to wear visors rather than masks with the kids. School have provided them. They're shit. I'll be wearing my mask.
> 
> I also do not give it long before it collapses into chaos. Cases rising in surrounding countries. Somehow (via wishful thinking probably) a lot of our staff seem oblivious to this. I even heard one "I can't go through all that again." Well you're probably going to have to...


Yep, I work at a university and will be doing perhaps 1/3 of my teaching on campus the rest staying online. We are just about at the point where we hear what the on campus bit is supposed to be like and then have to go away and prepare the whole thing in 3 weeks. We''ll be doing this knowing full well it will collapse due to it just being shit and badly organised or, more likely, a surge in cases in universities/my university/local schools. Such a fucking shambles, waste of time and way to piss students off. Oh, and a perfect little mechanism for spreading covid.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 1, 2020)

When I spoke on the phone to a GP about possible Covid symptoms, she mentioned that probably more than half of those testing positive were showing symptoms that were atypical in some way (hence recommending I get tested).

... so that bit from the Scottish Govt is a little worrying to me too.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 1, 2020)

The podcast I was listening to the other day had someone on saying symptoms for children appear to be temp headache loss of appetite sore throat.   I should check that rather than trust my memory.  It was bbc more or less I think.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 1, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> The podcast I was listening to the other day had someone on saying symptoms for children appear to be temp headache loss of appetite sore throat.   I should check that rather than trust my memory.  It was bbc more or less I think.



So the Scottish Govt has got people looking out for the wrong thing?  This just gets better.

(though NHS website is listing the same symptoms as the Scottish Govt listed)


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 1, 2020)

8ball said:


> So the Scottish Govt has got people looking out for the wrong thing?  This just gets better.
> 
> (though NHS website is listing the same symptoms as the Scottish Govt listed)



Tbf its emerging evidence. As with all covid stuff. But yeah. Not great.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 1, 2020)

Have I missed something there? Surely if your kid has the symptoms of any kind of a chest infection or even just sniffles, you get them tested for C-19? That's what the shiny big testing capacity is _for_, no?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Have I missed something there? Surely if your kid has the symptoms of any kind of a chest infection or even just sniffles, you get them tested for C-19? That's what the shiny big testing capacity is _for_, no?



This is pretty much what I thought the state of affairs was.  Anything resembling a respiratory infection and you self-isolate, wasn't it?
As opposed to "nah, probably just a cold, might as well go in...".


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Have I missed something there? Surely if your kid has the symptoms of any kind of a chest infection or even just sniffles, you get them tested for C-19? That's what the shiny big testing capacity is _for_, no?



I look forward to the queues on the telly box news when several million school children get tested a week.  Maybe there will be special buses to keep them seperate from all the commuters sent back to work to buy sandwiches from Pret.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 1, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> I look forward to the queues on the telly box news when several million school children get tested a week.  Maybe there will be special buses to keep them seperate from all the commuters sent back to buy sandwiches from Pret.


Well of course there is that. Schools could organise it, though. But asking people to self-diagnose is bonkers.

It's almost as if they're telling fibs when they make out that there is nearly 200,000 per day spare testing capacity atm.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well of course there is that. *Schools could organise it, though.* But asking people to self-diagnose is bonkers.
> 
> It's almost as if they're telling fibs when they make out that there is nearly 200,000 per day spare testing capacity atm.



What, with the ten testing kits each school has been provided with?
If not, there's not much hope of it being funded separately when the new lot of covid grants the gov has promised for the autumn term still hasn't even appeared yet - meaning schools have already had to make decisions not to implement safety measures they currently need, due to having no budget left.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 1, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> The podcast I was listening to the other day had someone on saying symptoms for children appear to be temp headache loss of appetite sore throat.   I should check that rather than trust my memory.  It was bbc more or less I think.



It was Inside Science from BBC4.  The top 5 for under 18s according to Tim Spector of the app fame are headache, fatigue, fever, sore throat and skipping meals.  Skin rashes in younger children quite common before or after other symptoms.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 1, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> It was Inside Science from BBC4.  The top 5 for under 18s according to Tim Spector of the app fame are headache, fatigue, fever, sore throat and skipping meals.  Skin rashes in young quite common before or after other symptoms.


And as the Zoe app makes very clear, not everyone exhibits every symptom. Far from it.

Almost like, in addition to fibbing about the testing capacity, they're also fibbing about 'following the science'.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 1, 2020)

Are we supposed to get tested for sniffles?


----------



## clicker (Sep 1, 2020)

So 60 schoolkids on each bus going to and from school...who then bubble once they get to school. Public transport must have some magic non covid forcefield. Maybe we'd be safer living on buses.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 1, 2020)

I'm guessing we are not set up to do this but if you have 100 people you need to test you can put them in batches of 10 samples and test that with one test.  If any of the 10 batches of 10 come back positive then you test those 10 individuals individually. 

Not sure why I've not seen anything about this, whether it is possible or not, and if possible why we're not doing it for say factories and schools etc.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 1, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> Are we supposed to get tested for sniffles?



I was going to post this in the general uk covid thread.  Johnson wants us all back at work to buy sandwiches.  But we're coming into cold season and once we're all mingling lurgies other than covid will also be making a comeback tour.  Sniffles aren't a symptom of covid so I guess the answer to your question is no, but many colds and other lurgies don't necessarily start with sniffles, but maybe a headache, fatigue, sore throat etc.  That's a lot of tests needed day in, day out and maybe sniffles is an atypical symptom for some.  Almost the entire population gets at least one lurgy between october and march.  That's potentially 361k tests a day, assuming people only get one lurgy each over that 6 months.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 1, 2020)

I'm on my second cold of the sniffles variety since nurseries reopened - June was it? I've not been tested - but no cough or fever etc. 

I don't understand how it's going to work with winter. Like at all. I think you're probably on to something with the sample testing. Not that it will happen.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2020)

According to this








						Get a free PCR test to check if you have coronavirus (COVID-19)
					

Choose a drive-through or walk-through test centre for a quick test, or order a home test kit. 




					www.nhs.uk
				



You should only get a test if you have a fever, a continuous cough or loss of smell and taste

It explicitly says Don't get a test if you don't have those


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 1, 2020)

This bubble thing is an impossible to achieve buzz word ideal for self centered tories to bleat out at any question asked. About as effective as a chocolate  teapot in the harsh reality of school.


----------



## elbows (Sep 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well of course there is that. Schools could organise it, though. But asking people to self-diagnose is bonkers.
> 
> It's almost as if they're telling fibs when they make out that there is nearly 200,000 per day spare testing capacity atm.



Well we only have to ask why they had to delay their care home testing plans to know that things are not great with regards capacity.

They have made noises in public that suggest they are aware of winter challenges including the need to get a testing system going that also includes testing for other viruses at the same time. I ont know when they will actually deliver such a thing at scale, and I suspect the scale will end up too limited to use it in every single scenario where it would ideally be used. 

The statement from Scotland is ridiculous in many ways and if this attitude is applied more broadly throughout the whole winter than it could easily lead to doom.

As for the scale of the winter challenge, here is a clue in the form of a quote from a NERVTAG Birdtable meeting of 22nd May,





__





						Box
					






					app.box.com
				






> Members discussed the levels of reports of fever or cough symptoms from the flu survey, in conjunction with other available data. AH agreed to provide data for a baseline by age from Bug  Watch.  Concerns  were  raised  that  the  numbers  being  enlisted  to  carry  out  contact  tracing is based on the number of predicted COVID-19 positive cases, but does not take into account cases of other respiratory diseases that will present with the same symptoms and  will  require  screening.  It  is  expected  there  would  be  ~100,000  influenza-like-illnesscases a day in summer and ~500,000 cases in the winter. The Chair agreed to raise the issue  with  Baroness  Harding,  with  regards  to  the  contact  tracing  arrangements.  MR  suggested that she could forward the concerns to the Boston Consulting Group for the Track & Trace.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Would the school aged you fake a cough or symptoms to get a couple of weeks off school?




A school-aged me would have gone out of my way to get it and spread around the building, with particular coughing fits near certain teachers (the list would be long, very long).


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## elbows (Sep 1, 2020)

By the way since I first linked to some BBC news about the Scottish stuff they wrote a proper story about it that has a bit more detail.









						Tens of thousands of Scottish pupils absent from school
					

More than 100,000 pupils are not in class - mostly for non-Covid reasons, official figures show.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Including:



> The Scottish government reported on Tuesday that almost 40,000 pupils had been tested for coronavirus since term started, with 117 positive results.





> Speaking on Monday, Education Secretary John Swinney said it was common for "colds and similar viral infections to circulate" when pupils returned from a prolonged break.



Yes and I think we'll need to employ quite a strong form of doublethink in order to process that concept after all the weeks of reassurances about school safety.



> "In many cases children will be well enough to attend school and continue their learning with little or no interruption to their education," he said.
> 
> "In other cases, for instance where they have quite a heavy cold with a runny nose, they may need to take a day or two off to recover."
> 
> ...



Stay absurd.


----------



## elbows (Sep 1, 2020)

I found the letter from the national clinical director to parents that the BBC article mentions.





__





						Common cold and COVID-19 symptoms: advice for parents and carers - gov.scot
					

Guidance from Scotland's National Clinical Director on  how COVID-19 symptoms differ from those of other infections circulating at this time of year.




					www.gov.scot
				






> We recommend testing only for those with a continuous cough, fever, or loss of or change in the sense of taste or smell. The UK senior clinicians continue to keep the symptoms for case definition under review and will continue to use evidence to adjust these if it becomes necessary.





> If, however, your child does not have symptoms of COVID-19 but has other cold-like symptoms, such as a runny nose, they do not need to be tested and they and you do not need to self-isolate. Your child can go to school if fit to do so.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 1, 2020)

elbows said:


> By the way since I first linked to some BBC news about the Scottish stuff they wrote a proper story about it that has a bit more detail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The Scottish government reported on Tuesday that almost 40,000 pupils had been tested for coronavirus since term started, with 117 positive results. 

<0.25%

Love that they say winter infections are common, in August! Just how cold is Scotland???


----------



## elbows (Sep 2, 2020)

The BBC stuck the 'what if my child has a cold or cough' question at the top of this article, but it doesnt actually add anything to what we were discussing the other day.









						How are Covid rules changing across UK schools?
					

The government's "Living with Covid" plan for England contains no additional measures for schools.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Cloo (Sep 2, 2020)

I think if it feels like an ordinary cold (blocked nose, sneezing, maybe sore throat), then it is a cold. Coronavirus may seem to have a zillion symptoms, but luckily blocked nose and sneezing don't seem to be part of it.


----------



## zahir (Sep 2, 2020)

Cloo said:


> I think if it feels like an ordinary cold (blocked nose, sneezing, maybe sore throat), then it is a cold. Coronavirus may seem to have a zillion symptoms, but luckily blocked nose and sneezing don't seem to be part of it.



I thought I had a cold coming on but it turned out it wasn’t. My initial symptoms were tiredness and nasal congestion, but without a runny nose or sneezing. Symptoms vary from person to person though and I wouldn’t rely on sneezing being an indication that you haven’t got it. I’ve had a sore throat on and off but only some of the time. The nasal/sinus congestion has been consistent and is still there in week twelve. I haven’t had a cough. I might have had some loss of smell for a while later on but nothing I’d really have noticed if I hadn’t been looking out for it. I didn’t have a fever that I was aware of in the first ten days of symptoms but did have afterwards when I got seriously ill. I’d be very cautious about relying on the official list of symptoms, or assuming that something that seems untypical isn’t actually a covid symptom.


----------



## elbows (Sep 2, 2020)

Symptoms in children are often more varied too. Its something I need to brush up my knowledge on in the coming days, will report back.


----------



## zahir (Sep 2, 2020)

Here’s a study of children admitted to hospital.









						Clinical characteristics of children and young people admitted to hospital with covid-19 in United Kingdom: prospective multicentre observational cohort study
					

Objective To characterise the clinical features of children and young people admitted to hospital with laboratory confirmed severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection in the UK and explore factors associated with admission to critical care, mortality, and development...




					www.bmj.com
				




This is what it has to say about symptoms:

The most common presenting symptoms were fever (70%; 431/617), cough (39%; 233/599), nausea/vomiting (32%; 179/564), and shortness of breath (30%; 173/570) (fig 1). Fever and rhinorrhoea were less common with increasing age; however, nausea and vomiting, abdominal pain, headache, and sore throat showed an increasing trend with age (supplementary figure D). A heatmap and dendrogram of presenting symptoms showed three distinct clusters of clinical phenotypes (fig 2). These comprised most commonly a discrete respiratory illness (green cluster) of cough, fever, shortness of breath, runny nose, lower chest wall indrawing, and wheeze, with clustering of both upper and lower respiratory symptoms together. Next was a cluster representing a systemic mucocutaneous-enteric illness (purple cluster) of headache, myalgia, sore throat, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, fatigue, rash, lymphadenopathy, and conjunctivitis. Finally, we observed a rarer neurological cluster of seizures and confusion (red cluster). The systemic mucocutaneous-enteric cluster includes the symptoms specified in the WHO preliminary case definition for MIS-C (“muco-cutaneous inflammation” and “acute gastrointestinal problems”), in addition to sore throat, myalgia, headache, and fatigue. The two main clusters “respiratory” and “systemic mucocutaneous-enteric” were not entirely dichotomous. Minor overlap occurred between a sub-cluster of “fever, cough, and shortness of breath” and a sub-cluster of “vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, fatigue, and rash” but very little overlap with “runny nose, wheeze, and lower chest wall indrawing.”


----------



## Cloo (Sep 2, 2020)

If I had a sniffle with headache or fatigue I'd definitely be concerned, but not just a sniffle, which is how almost all my colds start. Just before lockdown I had a weird, fatiguing bug that went on and off for over a fortnight and I'm still not certain that it wasn't COVID - again, had it been a standard cold, would have thought nothing of it, but it was an unusual bug and I get plenty of bugs, and I've certainly heard of people's C19 starting as my virus was, only I never developed a cough.

Daughter had a cold about a fortnight ago, so I kept checking her temperature just in case, but it was just a cold.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The Scottish government reported on Tuesday that almost 40,000 pupils had been tested for coronavirus since term started, with 117 positive results.
> 
> <0.25%
> 
> Love that they say winter infections are common, in August! Just how cold is Scotland???



It was not very warm first week back! I was there.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 2, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> It was Inside Science from BBC4.  The top 5 for under 18s according to Tim Spector of the app fame are headache, fatigue, fever, sore throat and skipping meals.  Skin rashes in younger children quite common before or after other symptoms.





Cloo said:


> I think if it feels like an ordinary cold (blocked nose, sneezing, maybe sore throat), then it is a cold. Coronavirus may seem to have a zillion symptoms, but luckily blocked nose and sneezing don't seem to be part of it.



See above.
 FTR my colds rarely start with a stuffed nose.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 2, 2020)

zahir : there's some pretty hard-core science in that article you quoted (foot of pevious thread-page) .... which is why I was only really able to digest your summary of it ....   

*So*, does the BMJ full version discuss what _proportion_ of children getting Covid have to be admitted to hospital? 
That is, what numbers of kids, what other conditions those admitted are prone to suffering from more generally, etc.??

Surely all that is pretty relevant .....


----------



## zahir (Sep 2, 2020)

The article gives some figures in the introduction but the main point is that the proportion admitted to hospital will be very small. I’m not sure how far the symptoms listed will correspond to symptoms in the vast majority of children who don’t get seriously ill. Children can also get long Covid, without necessarily getting ill enough to be hospitalised, and I’m not sure how common this is.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 2, 2020)

zahir said:


> The article gives some figures in the introduction but the main point is that the proportion admitted to hospital will be very small. I’m not sure how far the symptoms listed will correspond to symptoms in the vast majority of children who don’t get seriously ill. Children can also get long Covid, without necessarily getting ill enough to be hospitalised, and I’m not sure how common this is.



Thanks for that -- you are getting at what I was wondering about, but I do understand that there's a fair lack of clarity here.


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## elbows (Sep 2, 2020)

There are often not concrete, solid answers to all of this stuff. Decisions made about which symptoms are included is often a balancing act, and the balance may be considered differently in winter. Authorities may also be slow to make changes, eg we saw it took them rather a long time to add loss of sense of taste & smell to the official symptoms list.

It is one thing when the list of official symptoms is taken for what it is, not a definitive guide. Unfortunately as we saw with things like the criteria for what counts as a close contact, these somewhat arbitrary rules that are chosen for practical reasons rather than being absolute truths, are often then treated like the gospel by some parts of the system, and decisions are made as if the virus itself respects these rules.

It turns out I only have to look as far as some page on the Mayo Clinics website to see where things can get fuzzy and where the current UK approach could come unstuck.



> *Children's COVID-19 symptoms*
> 
> While children and adults experience similar symptoms of COVID-19, children's symptoms tend to be mild and cold-like. Most children recover within one to two weeks. Their symptoms can include:
> 
> ...











						How COVID-19 (coronavirus) affects babies and children
					

Understand the symptoms of COVID-19 in babies and older children and how to keep your family healthy.




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 3, 2020)

I thank Waits that my region is the least affected in the UK. I know it's induction and enrolment and most students in the college are new and unfamiliar with everything but there's not enough distancing and staff aren't enforcing the guidelines. I cannot see how cases in the education system aren't going to rocket in the next few weeks.


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## chilango (Sep 3, 2020)

Not going so well in schools of my acquaintance.

It seems that social distancing of parents at pickup/drop-off isn't working so well. Hardly a surprise and I'm sure procedures will be tweaked (I know they are already) but the virus ain't gonna hold off till off everyone's routines are well established.


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## ska invita (Sep 3, 2020)

How are teachers doing?


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## chilango (Sep 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How are teachers doing?



Stressed to fuck I'd imagine.


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## weepiper (Sep 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How are teachers doing?


We had a visit last night from a friend who's a high school teacher in Fife and also type 1 diabetic. He looked stressed as fuck. He's wearing a mask and a visor all day to teach. One of the S2 students tested positive last week and on the day they were told this he had already taught sixty S2 kids.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How are teachers doing?


Mixture of fear, fatalism and inability to follow or indifference to new college C19 policy


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 3, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Mixture of fear, fatalism and inability to follow or indifference to new college C19 policy



Are people still being told they can take masks off etc?


----------



## elbows (Sep 3, 2020)

zahir said:


> The article gives some figures in the introduction but the main point is that the proportion admitted to hospital will be very small. I’m not sure how far the symptoms listed will correspond to symptoms in the vast majority of children who don’t get seriously ill. Children can also get long Covid, without necessarily getting ill enough to be hospitalised, and I’m not sure how common this is.



Theres another study which is making the news. This one looked at children of NHS workers, antibodies and symptoms, and none of the people involved required hospitalisation.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.31.20183095v1.full.pdf
		


This sort of study and the associated headlines is likely to generate some pressure to change the symptoms criteria, but it wont be snotty cold symptoms that are the focus, it will be digestive system stuff:









						Coronavirus: 'Add upset stomach in children to symptoms'
					

Researchers say it may be worth adding diarrhoea and vomiting to the list of symptoms.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 3, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Are people still being told they can take masks off etc?


Oh aye. I'm telling people they can wear masks if they wish, and wearing one myself in all indoor areas of college except my office.


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## Thora (Sep 3, 2020)

I’ve had two childminders today tell me they’re not excluding children with “just a cough” and one not excluding for temperatures if it could be teething or comes down with calpol   “You just have to make a judgement/use your common sense”


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## Badgers (Sep 3, 2020)




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## planetgeli (Sep 3, 2020)

The good news is the L.A has actually supplied masks, they arrived today.

The bad news is that despite the Welsh 53 page guidance relying heavily, to the point of almost totally, on the concept of social distancing our second in command today stated that the pupils will not be expected _at all _to socially distance. 

Tbf a few of the kids did turn up in masks today and a couple even wore them throughout. So far, out of 20+ staff, I can count easily on one hand the number of staff I've seen wearing one. Definitely a fatalistic attitude combined with an 'it's all over isn't it?' mindset from some. Rules not being enforced even among staff and it feels like everyone for him/herself right now. 

It will end in tears. Really hasn't helped we are one of the least affected places in the U.K, that's just made 80% of people complacent.


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## nagapie (Sep 3, 2020)

Apart from hand washing/sanitising and masks I don't really see the point in all of this. Bubbles don't work in secondaries because teachers teach everyone and in primary siblings mean a mixing of bubbles anyway (and the bubbles are so huge). Staggered start and finish times still mean lots of parents congregated and then some of those move to a different group to get the sibling. And really if somone were to get it in a school, you can't imagine these measures would prevent it from properly spreading. 
It all feels like a load of extra work for inefficient protections. I doubt anything short of closing schools will properly keep the numbers down, but I don't want that either.


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## spanglechick (Sep 3, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Apart from hand washing/sanitising and masks I don't really see the point in all of this. Bubbles don't work in secondaries because teachers teach everyone and in primary siblings mean a mixing of bubbles anyway (and the bubbles are so huge). Staggered start and finish times still mean lots of parents congregated and then some of those move to a different group to get the sibling. And really if somone were to get it in a school, you can't imagine these measures would prevent it from properly spreading.
> It all feels like a load of extra work for inefficient protections. I doubt anything short of closing schools will properly keep the numbers down, but I don't want that either.


I know exactly what you mean.  I’m clinicall vulnerable on two counts and if I get this it could well be really grim... but online teaching only really worked for a proportion of students (a smaller proportion as the kids get younger) and anyway I do think schools, for all the stress and peer-group friction are a valuable part of social developmemt for about 90% of kids.  

I can’t bear the thought of more closures - even while I know the dangers are very real, not least to myself. I kind of have this irrational, magical-thinking idea that if we all tell ourselves that the c-19 situation is over, then it will be. Because that’s what I want to happen. But it isn’t is it? And there’s a bloody high chance I’m going to get this thing before there’s a vaccine, and a small but still significant chance that I’ll die if I do.

But I don’t know what we can do differently.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 4, 2020)

spanglechick : My immediate reaction to your post (posting as an outsider and non-teecher, admittedly  )  is that you should not be authorised to be back at work at all??  

I really hope I'm wrong, and I *really* hope that you avoid contracting anything. Good luck


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 4, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> And there’s a bloody high chance I’m going to get this thing before there’s a vaccine, and a small but still significant chance that I’ll die if I do.
> 
> But I don’t know what we can do differently.



I don't know your underlying conditions but I definitely feel in the same boat. I've had cancer and within the last fortnight have acquired a new auto-immune condition so my immune system is compromised.

I too don't have an answer but feel like we need to at least try and stand by the rules and regulations as outlined. And that just isn't happening as people slide towards your earlier comment about the irrational magical thinking it is all over. (I acknowledge you know the reality of this thought).

Frankly, it's pissing me off and I do feel like my life/death is being played with. 53 pages of 'advisory' from my government, all but ignored the second we got back. Not that the advice was brilliant in the first place. Markings all over the school floors which we are now told don't apply to the kids. 

The irony is the kids ARE taking it more seriously than the staff, quite a few of them now telling me they have vulnerable parents/carers/siblings at home and they respect that. Most of the staff, not having to live with anyone vulnerable, pretending it's all over or it won't affect them.

The last few days have made me really proud of quite a few of the kids I work with. At least they are trying in difficult circumstances.

Adults not so much.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 4, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I don't know your underlying conditions but I definitely feel in the same boat. I've had cancer and within the last fortnight have acquired a new auto-immune condition so my immune system is compromised.
> 
> I too don't have an answer but feel like we need to at least try and stand by the rules and regulations as outlined. And that just isn't happening as people slide towards your earlier comment about the irrational magical thinking it is all over. (I acknowledge you know the reality of this thought).
> 
> ...


I have lower-category vulnerabilities.  I’m obese but most seriously I have a chronic neurological condition.  

I’m not in the category to continue shielding at home, and if I’m back, (and I don’t want to be stuck at home trying to make myself useful remotely) then it’s hard to see how I can make it meaningfully safer.


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## zahir (Sep 4, 2020)

This week’s Independent Sage briefing, posted on this thread as it mainly deals with schools. In my entirely non-expert opinion I get the feeling they may be underplaying the health risks to children, and that this may follow on from the position they have taken on wanting schools reopened.


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## elbows (Sep 4, 2020)

Well risk is a numbers game, and there are plenty of ways that they can talk about low risks to children without lying.

Sense of risk is also a personal thing and I doubt most people come up with a sense of risk based on numbers such as probability estimates alone. So, aside from the various moments where I thought it was appropriate to say things to get people to take various aspects of this pandemic seriously, I've not tended to attempt to strongly influence peoples sense of risk that this virus poses to particular individuals. After all, numbers are not going to be any consolation to those who do end up with children who suffer more profoundly.

I suppose I would go as far as to say that the relatively low risk to children is why I am more likely to focus on the broader risks from schools opening in this pandemic, ie its influence on the overall spread, adult contact patterns etc.


----------



## petee (Sep 4, 2020)

we re-opened monday. case in my school today. 
teacher.


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## Wilf (Sep 5, 2020)

Middlesbrough is now on the watchlist and has already reached the point where some towns in Greater Manhcester were locked down. Schools in and around Middlesbrough are back this/next week and the University freshers week is just over a fortnight away, with significant amounts of on campus teaching. Well, wonder how _that _will all pan out...


----------



## elbows (Sep 5, 2020)

An example of some science being spun, but also featuring other voices trying to bring things back to the realm of sense and caution.

Also contains indications of children in general being as likely as adults to be infected, and the mild/no symptoms stuff.









						Coronavirus: Primary schools 'no greater risk than home' for pupils and staff
					

Other experts say more research is needed now all children are back at school in England and Wales.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2020)

Teacher friends;


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Teacher friends;
> 
> View attachment 229273


Should be noted that Google has put a lot of effort into changing/shafting education for years now, and been very successful.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Sep 5, 2020)

We've already got a local school with one member of staff testing positive, less than a week after re-opening.








						School confirms staff member has tested positive for coronavirus
					

A MEMBER of staff at a school has tested positive for coronavirus.




					www.theargus.co.uk


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> How are teachers doing?



I'm really pleased to be back at school.  It's a bit weird as a lot has changed for us in secondary so I'm having to adapt but it's great to see my classes again.  A positive is that because we have to focus so intently on making and implementing these changes, a lot of extra stuff has been pared back meaning I get to concentrate on the quality of my lessons and teaching which is what I like the best - although workload has increased in this respect, as we have to teach at school but also provide lessons etc for children at home.  Whilst I'm actually at work it all feels fine.  I hope it stays that way.  I really, truly believe that my students and my own children should be in school.

(btw spanglechick - my eldest is applying for secondary this year and your school is on the list - the word locally about your school is _hugely_ positive)


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

Going well, so soon.  




source


----------



## Badgers (Sep 7, 2020)

Have seen varying numbers up to 201 across the UK being bandied about. 

Seems there is at least one case in the school Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson visited with no mask on.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 7, 2020)




----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

Was talking to a teacher pal earlier about these early school outbreaks and wondering if the staff involved had actually infected each other in the run up to the kids actually returning? Those days when heads get all the staff in together to get ready for the return with people coming straight back from their travels...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 7, 2020)

Apparently the school that Boris Johnson visited on August 26th to explain how safe schools are has just been closed.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Apparently the school that Boris Johnson visited on August 26th to explain how safe schools are has just been closed.


Seriously?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

It's the curse of Alexander.


----------



## Sue (Sep 7, 2020)

Was talking to a secondary teacher friend last night. They're putting the kids in bubbles according to year groups and these bubbles will stay in one place with the teachers moving round. When he asked how the teachers would remain safe, he didn't get much of an answer. Likewise about kids from rural areas all coming in together on the same buses. He's got pretty bad asthma and is quite worried about catching it I think.


----------



## elbows (Sep 7, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Seriously?



It might not have been the entire school closed, at least it wasnt when I last looked at the story some time ago, but its at least partly true.









						School visited by Boris Johnson less than 2 weeks ago confirms Coronavirus case | ITV News
					

Castle Rock School in Coalville is among a number of schools across the Midlands that have asked students to stay at home today following a confirmed case of Covid-19.




					www.itv.com
				






> Castle Rock School in Coalville said that a member of staff has tested positive for Covid-19.
> 
> The school, which was visited by Prime Minister Boris Johnson on 16th August, has asked students in certain classes to stay at home. It has also sought advice from Public Health England and says it will notify parents if their child needs to continue to self-isolate for 14 days.


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2020)

A whole school *has* closed in Nottinghamshire after the head teacher was admitted to hospital with covid though.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 8, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> mind it's not a rectal thermometer


I'd be dipping it in my bosses tea then. They get paid more to deal with this sort of thing


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 8, 2020)

Two days it's taken for my college to realise teenagers can't or won't stay safe and have introduced mandatory face coverings in all communal areas and corridors. This has made me a bit happier


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 8, 2020)

Mrs Q has had her first full day at school,she was in yesterday but only Y7 and Y12 were present, today the rampaging hordes were back. Apparently they have found a flaw in the cunning plan already, they have staggered start times for the kids but a lot of parents have been dropping them off on their way to work and a lot thus get dropped off before their allocated start time so Mum/Dad can get to work.
This has basically resulted in the kids milling about enmasse on the pavements outside the school rather than milling about in the school grounds.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Yep, I work at a university and will be doing perhaps 1/3 of my teaching on campus the rest staying online. We are just about at the point where we hear what the on campus bit is supposed to be like and then have to go away and prepare the whole thing in 3 weeks. We''ll be doing this knowing full well it will collapse due to it just being shit and badly organised or, more likely, a surge in cases in universities/my university/local schools. Such a fucking shambles, waste of time and way to piss students off. Oh, and a perfect little mechanism for spreading covid.


My co-tutor is being treated for cancer, and I'm type 2 diabetic, so under our College's rules, we're banned from the premises. Result.

At the other place, I'm effectively second-in-command, so if I say "We're not going in", everybody else has to say "How high?"


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 8, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Two days it's taken for my college to realise teenagers can't or won't stay safe and have introduced mandatory face coverings in all communal areas and corridors. This has made me a bit happier



i think its a little mean to the students telling them that opening school, colleges and Uni  is 100 % safe and required


and then blaming them for rising infections rates


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 8, 2020)

Our students seem to be pretty compliant with the new rules, which mostly boil down to where the are and are not allowed to be.  
Because we wanted as many kids as possible to still have practical lessons (dance, drama, music, technology and PE) in specialist spaces, there are some bits of extreme logistical fine-tuning to get classes from their bubble’s zone, to the space in question, without crossing any other zones. Lots of access through fire doors and tours around the usually “out of bounds“ areas behind buildings and through rarely used gates.   Which aren’t always unlocked.  
Also, we have nowhere near enough loos to have one set of each gender facilities per year group.  This means, hilariously, that there is a single cubicle for all 80-odd boys in the sixth form.  

But everyone who is responsible for having to make it work is being very positive and resilient whenever we find out yet another flaw in the endlessly complicated plan as it’s put into practice.  School is quite a positive place to be, right now.  We’ve never been a draconian kind of place with absolute and inflexible rules about stupid stuff...  our kids know that sometimes a plan changes and everyone has to adapt.


----------



## wayward bob (Sep 8, 2020)

coming from the parent side of this (i.e. please, god, open soon 🙏 ) i have so much respect for all the teaching and support staff involved in making even a stuttering start possible. and the work they've/you've been putting in since the whole shitshow started.

just wanted to add my support for what it's worth to all of you finding safe/healthy/supportive conditions to work in. 

(and apols if that's so far from reality atm i should just shut up ) x


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 9, 2020)

Two colleagues have now had kids sent home to be tested because they were witnessed coughing.


----------



## polly (Sep 9, 2020)

wayward bob said:


> coming from the parent side of this (i.e. please, god, open soon 🙏 ) i have so much respect for all the teaching and support staff involved in making even a stuttering start possible. and the work they've/you've been putting in since the whole shitshow started.
> 
> just wanted to add my support for what it's worth to all of you finding safe/healthy/supportive conditions to work in.
> 
> (and apols if that's so far from reality atm i should just shut up ) x



Yes, all this. I have just had two consecutive virtual meetings with my kids' new teachers and the other parents, and in the Q&A people were actually bitching about not having homework yet and the new set up for PE  This is in the knowledge that a child in one cohort has CV19 symptoms so the teachers must have been exposed. Arseholes.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 9, 2020)

Supposedly 439 schools throughout the UK with Covid cases.


----------



## zahir (Sep 9, 2020)

No great surprise here.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 9, 2020)

We had a good one today.

Directly told in a meeting, in these words, that the school must absolutely not be allowed to close due to teacher incompetence of passing the virus from teacher to teacher.

Because of course, in a school that's been told the pupils don't have to socially distance, it would be impossible for a pupil to pass it around the school in a day, having, as they do, multiple close contacts with all staff.

It'd be our fault. 

Wankers.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 10, 2020)

How dare you be incompetent enough to catch a highly infectious virus you scumbag


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 10, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> We had a good one today.
> 
> Directly told in a meeting, in these words, that the school must absolutely not be allowed to close due to teacher incompetence of passing the virus from teacher to teacher.
> 
> ...


That's the solution give the virus a stern talking too


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 10, 2020)

It must write out 100 lines on why it mustn't infect people.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 10, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> We had a good one today.
> 
> Directly told in a meeting, in these words, that the school must absolutely not be allowed to close due to teacher incompetence of passing the virus from teacher to teacher.
> 
> ...


In any kind of decently unionised society, a comment like "due to teacher incompetence" in that context would be grounds for some fairly serious threats of industrial action.

It always floors me that the education system is proud to place teachers, etc., on a pinnacle of trust when it suits them, but at the same time regard them and their thought processes as no better or more advanced that those of the kids they teach.

There's a bitter irony in the way that our most essential professions - teachers, doctors, nurses, associated professions, care staff, etc - are all, to a man/woman, the very professions this government seems to target with the crassest insults, and worst support.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> That's the solution give the virus a stern talking too


I know you're joking, but you'd be surprised how embedded the delusion of total power over everything is within some bits of the education system.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 10, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I know you're joking, but you'd be surprised how embedded the delusion of total power over everything is within some bits of the education system.


I wouldn't, my wife is a secondary school teacher and some of the tales she tells me makes me fear for the future at times


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 10, 2020)

So my son finishes his shift at the local hospital, where he has been working all through the lockdown, to catch his bus home. First bus is filled with school kids, so adults aren’t allowed on. Second bus is full, because of distancing restrictions and the previous bus not allowing adults. Third bus ditto. Finally he gets on the fourth bus and gets home an hour late. He and everyone else in the bus queue well pissed off and angry. How long, if ever, will it take the bus company to wise up and put on extra buses at school-chucking-out time?


----------



## chilango (Sep 10, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I know you're joking, but you'd be surprised how embedded the delusion of total power over everything is within some bits of the education system.



...yet conversely how embedded the reaction of shrugging shoulders and saying that it is out of their hands can be in the very same people.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 10, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...yet conversely how embedded the reaction of shrugging shoulders and saying that it is out of their hands can be in the very same people.


Yeah. Nobody said it had to be rational...


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 10, 2020)

Due to my colleague's daughter's A level choices, she has to attend three different schools - sometimes going from one to the next on the same day...



> Bristol City Council, Bristol City Council  PUBLIC SERVICE
> 
> Students in three Bristol schools have tested positive to COVID-19. Two Mile Hill Primary School in Kingsway, Shirehampton Primary School and John Williams Oasis Academy in Hengrove all remain open, however some students are self-isolating at home.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 10, 2020)

522 schools infected.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 10, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> How long, if ever, will it take the bus company to wise up and put on extra buses at school-chucking-out time?



snag is most bus fleets are at full stretch round school start / finish time in normal times, so finding extra buses (and drivers to drive them, and garage space for them) isn't quite as simple as all that...


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 11, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> snag is most bus fleets are at full stretch round school start / finish time in normal times, so finding extra buses (and drivers to drive them, and garage space for them) isn't quite as simple as all that...


I’m sure all that’s true, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if things settle down in a short while and changes are made to timetables. But the bus company should be proactive grater than reactive. They should have seen it coming. It’s their job. They should also have been given advice by the government in plenty of time. (Yeah, I know)


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 11, 2020)

possible case in a class Chemistry has taught twice this week. Wonder how long it'll take for any test result news to get round, or even results, as it's friday...


----------



## zahir (Sep 13, 2020)

Thread on children, covid and schools.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 13, 2020)

MrSki said:


> 522 schools infected.




It's not ' 522 schools infected', it's 522 having largely a single pupil testing positive, which is very different, as they could have caught it anywhere. 

Also bear in mind there's around 30,000 schools in the UK, so there's not much to worry about ATM, although that could well change if it starts spreading in a large number of schools.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 13, 2020)

Remember the Welsh government guidance denigrated the use of masks.

On Friday we were told masks will become compulsory from next week, though only in corridors, and only for staff. Hopefully the annoyance of removal and putting back on again will compel most staff to keep the bloody things on because atm we still only have 4 out of 20 staff regularly wearing one all day.



cupid_stunt said:


> It's not ' 522 schools infected', it's 522 having largely a single pupil testing positive, as they could have caught it anywhere.
> 
> Also bear in mind there's around 30,000 schools in the UK, so there's not much to worry about ATM, although that could well change if it starts spreading in a large number of schools.



It's only been a week and a half with most schools having staggered starts. I reckon foresight should tell us there's plenty to worry about coming up.


----------



## zahir (Sep 13, 2020)

Opening schools in Germany.



			https://www.g-f-v.org/sites/default/files/Statement%20ad%20hoc%20commission%20SARS2_englisch_final-RB_sent.pdf


----------



## clicker (Sep 13, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not ' 522 schools infected', it's 522 having largely a single pupil testing positive, which is very different, as they could have caught it anywhere.
> 
> Also bear in mind there's around 30,000 schools in the UK, so there's not much to worry about ATM, although that could well change if it starts spreading in a large number of schools.


I don't think it matters where they caught it though. What will matter is that they've exposed 30,000 schools to transmission. That's hundreds of thousands of adults and students in enclosed spaces, with minimal mask wearing and lack of available testing. Can't see it improving as it stands, but more than happy to be wrong.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 13, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not ' 522 schools infected', it's 522 having largely a single pupil testing positive, which is very different, as they could have caught it anywhere.
> 
> Also bear in mind there's around 30,000 schools in the UK, so there's not much to worry about ATM, although that could well change if it starts spreading in a large number of schools.


Now 726  UK schools with pupils or staff with a Covid 19 positive test. Nothing to worry about when so many people are having difficulty getting a test?


----------



## LDC (Sep 13, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Now 726  UK schools with pupils or staff with a Covid 19 positive test. Nothing to worry about when so many people are having difficulty getting a test?



Yup, school near me just emailed out saying all Year 9 off as an infection in that year group. And the school can't get any info out of PHE about what to do as they're overwhelmed so keeping whole year off as precaution until they get advice - hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 13, 2020)

I don't know how many people remember schools before lockdown, but they have always been amazingly efficient at spreading viruses. You could guarantee that if some kid in a school in Essex had a bug, and you worked with someone who had a kid there, and you sat next to both them and someone from Carshalton who also had kids, that bug would be in Carshalton by the next day.

Granted that widespread WFH does cut the cross-region transfer down, but if it's in a school then it gets to household groups.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 13, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Now 726  UK schools with pupils or staff with a Covid 19 positive test. Nothing to worry about when so many people are having difficulty getting a test?


Kind of makes you wonder what the numbers would be if everyone who needed a test was able to get one


----------



## chilango (Sep 13, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't know how many people remember schools before lockdown, but they have always been amazingly efficient at spreading viruses. You could guarantee that if some kid in a school in Essex had a bug, and you worked with someone who had a kid there, and you sat next to both them and someone from Carshalton who also had kids, that bug would be in Carshalton by the next day.
> 
> Granted that widespread WFH does cut the cross-region transfer down, but if it's in a school then it gets to household groups.



Don't worry the students will sort the cross-region transfer out this week.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> I don't think it matters where they caught it though. What will matter is that they've exposed 30,000 schools to transmission. That's hundreds of thousands of adults and students in enclosed spaces, with minimal mask wearing and lack of available testing. Can't see it improving as it stands, but more than happy to be wrong.



Absolutely this (and I'm not really appreciating the _pft, don't worry about it_ take on it).

We have our first person off in my school. 
Not a positive case - a staff member, whose partner has tested positive - so no one _they've_ been in close contact with instructed to self-isolate, unless/until _they_ get a positive result back.
Which makes _some_ sense (when the focus is on keeping schools opening, at least), except that testing is fucked.


----------



## zahir (Sep 14, 2020)

An account from a headteacher. I’m not sure I see the justification for not having everyone in the classroom self-isolate.









						We’ve had our first positive test but it won’t be our last
					

At 10.54am on Saturday morning I received an email from a parent informing me that her child had tested positive for Covid-19. I am writing this at 7pm on Sunday evening as an account of what happe…




					framheadteacher.com


----------



## baldrick (Sep 14, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yup, school near me just emailed out saying all Year 9 off as an infection in that year group. And the school can't get any info out of PHE about what to do as they're overwhelmed so keeping whole year off as precaution until they get advice - hopefully tomorrow.


We have three year groups off. First one on Thursday, still haven't heard back from PHE 👍


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

zahir said:


> An account from a headteacher. I’m not sure I see the justification for not having everyone in the classroom self-isolate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This really illutrates how difficult it all is, how much _responsibility_ is placed on schools (as that expands, outwards... to staff and kids and parents...) to make really huge decisions. Also, how easy it must be to make _mistakes_.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2020)

The speed with which the start of term cold has swept through everyone I know connected to schools doesn't fill me with confidence that the measures schools have been able to take will slow a Covid spread.


----------



## clicker (Sep 14, 2020)

zahir said:


> An account from a headteacher. I’m not sure I see the justification for not having everyone in the classroom self-isolate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate they must be busy, but they  need to update those letters they're sending out . The list of symptoms  people need to look for have now increased, especially when it comes to children.

He even puts down the child in question had an upset stomach and nausea , which we  have actually been told is a symptom ; yet he states having that symptom made them quite shocked at the positive test??

It's worrying that a school found that shocking.


----------



## Thora (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> I appreciate they must be busy, but they  need to update those letters they're sending out . The list of symptoms  people need to look for have now increased, especially when it comes to children.
> 
> He even puts down the child in question had an upset stomach and nausea , which we  have actually been told is a symptom ; yet he states having that symptom made them quite shocked at the positive test??
> 
> It's worrying that a school found that shocking.


The school letters will refer to the official list of "main symptoms" that form the testing criteria.  Schools aren't going to risk creating their own guidance which hasn't come from DfE or Public Health.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 14, 2020)

So it is going well?


----------



## LDC (Sep 14, 2020)

School near me has had one year 9 student test positive and the whole year was off today as a precaution until they got answers from PHE today about what to do. Still can't get an answer today, so whole year off tomorrow too. Shambles.

Although apparently the plan generally is to only have those kids that sat right next to any positive tests self isolate as they have the windows open so it's OK. Also a shambles.


----------



## clicker (Sep 14, 2020)

Thora said:


> The school letters will refer to the official list of "main symptoms" that form the testing criteria.  Schools aren't going to risk creating their own guidance which hasn't come from DfE or Public Health.


Yet the BMJ published the new advice last week. Then again the science wasn't listened to in the beginning.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 14, 2020)

My boss told me today that in his daughters school 4 of the 6 year groups have been sent home.


----------



## Thora (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> Yet the BMJ published the new advice last week. Then again the science wasn't listened to in the beginning.


Then your issue is with the government not some individual school/teacher.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> Yet the BMJ published the new advice last week. Then again the science wasn't listened to in the beginning.



There's been loads of stuff published about the change in recognised symptoms in kids - but the guidance is still the same -









						Symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19)
					

Find out about the main symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19) and what to do if you or your child has them.




					www.nhs.uk
				




No idea if a test is suggested if you call in for a child with the more likely symptoms now - but, following published guidance, you wouldn't do that anyway. That's also the guidance schools are following.


----------



## clicker (Sep 14, 2020)

Thora said:


> Then your issue is with the government not some individual school/teacher.


I can't find any overall consistent guidance given to schools. They've been left to react on the hoof. And seem to vary in their reactions. Not sure who makes decisions for each school. But if they've got any individual power to decide how they react ( which they must have ), I'd be more confident if they followed science. Waiting for govt advice has put them in a precarious position. Teaching staff and parents are being used as diagnostic tools.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Sep 14, 2020)

In the schools and colleges I work in masks are compulsory in corridors and communal spaces and I've yet to see anyone breaking the rules tbf. 
  We've been given bigger rooms to counsel in too which is nice. I'm adapting to it and accepted my new cleaning role between clients. 

My youngest is hating being stuck in the same class all day, especially as he shares it with a right dickhead  bully boy. So his morale is low already bless him. He's fallen asleep before dinner time each day once he's home.  

I've counselled a few people now who wore masks and its very odd indeed, but not impossible...some nuance and rapport is lost though imo.


----------



## Thora (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> I can't find any overall consistent guidance given to schools. They've been left to react on the hoof. And seem to vary in their reactions. Not sure who makes decisions for each school. But if they've got any individual power to decide how they react ( which they must have ), I'd be more confident if they followed science. Waiting for govt advice has put them in a precarious position. Teaching staff and parents are being used as diagnostic tools.


Seriously?  You think busy teachers/schools (who are already working weekends and evenings as above) should ignore the guidance they get from the DfE, ignore the symptoms from the NHS, ignore the flowcharts the local authority and public health are sending them and _read the BMJ to come up with their own guidance   _


----------



## clicker (Sep 14, 2020)

Thora said:


> Seriously?  You think busy teachers/schools (who are already working weekends and evenings as above) should ignore the guidance they get from the DfE, ignore the symptoms from the NHS, ignore the flowcharts the local authority and public health are sending them and _read the BMJ to come up with their own guidance  _


Possibly one member of staff to read the BMJ updates weekly relating to schools...would honestly take 15 minutes. If, as last week, new symptons were added, then put them in the school newsletter. 

It really wouldn't be a huge time consuming ,ongoing mess of changing advice. It'd just be letting parents/carers know what to look for from the start . There appears understandably to be confusion over what may or not be a symptom, which could lead to uninformed decisions. If the school doesn't think the BMJ published article is credible then they can ignore it .


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> I can't find any overall consistent guidance given to schools. They've been left to react on the hoof. And seem to vary in their reactions. Not sure who makes decisions for each school. But if they've got any individual power to decide how they react ( which they must have ), I'd be more confident if they followed science. Waiting for govt advice has put them in a precarious position. Teaching staff and parents are being used as diagnostic tools.



Afaik, guidance comes from la's and governors (what they have all been shovelling together while they've been trying to meet what is pretty much a legal obligation to open, with limited funding or guidance for that, throughout) but when you have a case, it's straight to PHE.
I KNOW my school has fuck all idea of what would happen even in the area I work- that is evolving- because they've had to be so focused on provision for learning, with no guidance, and then adapting the premises, with no proper budget for it. 
I sound like I think the business management at my school is all great and I'm right behind them - I'm not - my workplace has been dreadful, for years, purely down to shit middle managers and a massive turnover in higher management, who come in and imagine they can turn it around and then realise they can't, cos there's no money, so make it more and more miserable for the rest of us while they try... but I do understand that THIS is different. No one has any fucking idea what they're doing now - and I'm not sure how much blame can be laid at any individual's feet there. Doesn't mean that I don't also agree that staff and parents and _kids_ are being tested though. It's all pretty shit.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> Possibly one member of staff to read the BMJ updates weekly relating to schools...would honestly take 15 minutes. If, as last week, new symptons were added, then put them in the school newsletter.
> 
> It really wouldn't be a huge time consuming ,ongoing mess of changing advice. It'd just be letting parents/carers know what to look for from the start . There appears understandably to be confusion over what may or not be a symptom, which could lead to uninformed decisions. If the school doesn't think the BMJ published article is credible then they can ignore it .



That really ignores how much schools can _afford_ to take any short term decisons like that though, without any specific direction to do so - they're pretty much held to ransom, already.


----------



## clicker (Sep 14, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> Afaik, guidance comes from la's and governors (what they have all been shovelling together while they've been trying to meet what is pretty much a legal obligation to open, with limited funding or guidance for that, throughout) but when you have a case, it's straight to PHE.
> I KNOW my school has fuck all idea of what would happen even in the area I work- that is evolving- because they've had to be so focused on provision for learning, with no guidance, and then adapting the premises, with no proper budget for it.
> I sound like I think the business management at my school is all great and I'm right behind them - I'm not - my workplace has been dreadful, for years, purely down to shit middle managers and a massive turnover in higher management, who come in and imagine they can turn it around and then realise they can't, cos there's no money, so make it more and more miserable for the rest of us while they try... but I do understand that THIS is different. No one has any fucking idea what they're doing now - and I'm not sure how much blame can be laid at any individual's feet there. Doesn't mean that I don't also agree that staff and parents and _kids_ are being tested though. It's all pretty shit.


Agree with all of that. I just think we are still at the raised temperature and continuous cough stage. I can't see the harm in letting people know it's changed.


----------



## baldrick (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> Possibly one member of staff to read the BMJ updates weekly relating to schools...would honestly take 15 minutes. If, as last week, new symptons were added, then put them in the school newsletter.
> 
> It really wouldn't be a huge time consuming ,ongoing mess of changing advice. It'd just be letting parents/carers know what to look for from the start . There appears understandably to be confusion over what may or not be a symptom, which could lead to uninformed decisions. If the school doesn't think the BMJ published article is credible then they can ignore it .


If you have schools going off piste with guidance you'll have challenge from parents, governors etc. It will take way more than 15 minutes a day responding to all that. It's so much simpler to tell parents to read the government guidance. Schools aren't medical experts and shouldn't be giving advice. At the end of the day it's up to parents how they respond to potential covid symptoms. If the school is telling them something different to what they see elsewhere that's going to be really confusing. Schools have to be trusted by parents, especially now.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

clicker said:


> Agree with all of that. I just think we are still at the raised temperature and continuous cough stage. I can't see the harm in letting people know it's changed.



I _promise_ I don't disagree - all I can see is trouble ahead and money being flung in all the wrong directions in the meantime - and a continuing refusal to pay heed to health, above all (and/or the impact of ignoring that, on the economy, and education).
It's JUST that it's _too much_ to expect _schools_ to navigate the way through it, that it's really confusing to know what's right to do - and that that is down to a lack of guidance from the gov, while ALL they have done is slung dates that must be met for schools to open, a whole series of ever changing, last minute rules and more recently, all the stuff about spread being caused by young people - which will undoubtedly fall back to them _again_, to take responsibility for. Y'know, it's not for schools to suggest adherence to more recent medical studies - but it doesn't follow that those shouldn't be pursued, _really_ fucking vigorously.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 14, 2020)

(testing access problems aside) can you even get a test for all the other symptoms or is it restricted to temp/cough/taste and or smell?
Because from what I see, you could remove your child but all the other parties aren't quarantined until a positive test. So what's the fucking point?


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

England's schools 'will grind to a halt' unless Covid testing improves
					

Heads warn that education system faces paralysis as staff and students forced to stay home




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> (testing access problems aside) can you even get a test for all the other symptoms or is it restricted to temp/cough/taste and or smell?
> Because from what I see, you could remove your child but all the other parties aren't quarantined until a positive test. So what's the fucking point?



There would be more of a point if testing was working and turning around quickly. As you say, less point when it's not.
In that case, you can only guess at any symptoms you have yourself and take it from there - but so it has a huge impact, in all sorts or ways, when you're having to make your own decisions, too.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

Why are English schools being left to pay for Covid measures out of threadbare budgets? | Paul Whiteman
					

The government is well behind where it needs to be in terms of its thinking, planning and delivery, says NAHT leader Paul Whiteman




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Covid-19 forcing schools in England 'to juggle pupil and financial safety'
					

Exclusive: headteachers talk of sidelining projects and making do with a fraction of what is required




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Boris Johnson’s catch-up tutoring 'will arrive too late' for pupils who need it most
					

The £350m initiative promised by Boris Johnson will not be in place in schools until spring 2021, warn unions




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Thora (Sep 14, 2020)

Can you imagine the push back from parents if schools start asking kids to isolate for sore throats, headaches and upset stomachs?


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 14, 2020)

Thora said:


> Can you imagine the push back from parents if schools start asking kids to isolate for sore throats, headaches and upset stomachs?



I imagine loads of any push back would be around being used to being in workplaces where taking time off sick was already traditionally frowned upon (pretty much every workplace), let alone when you have to do it to look after children.
There's the impact on pay and also a far greater burden on women, generally, if/when that happens, too.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2020)

828 schools now. Apparently.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2020)

That's over 2.5% of schools with cases already.

That we know of.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 14, 2020)

chilango said:


> That's over 2.5% of schools with cases already.
> 
> That we know of.


There's bound to be a serious undercount, not least because it's currently impossible to get a test in the 'hotspot' areas of Greater Manc, Lancs and Yorks.


----------



## Thora (Sep 14, 2020)

It seems to have become impossible to get a test anywhere today.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 14, 2020)

Thora said:


> It seems to have become impossible to get a test anywhere today.


Story here about a private contractor who just didn't turn up to do mobile testing (Bolton):








						Covid test nightmare as no-show leaves 'a car park full of sick people'
					

"It was shocking. People were there with babies and there was a car park full of sick people."




					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk


----------



## Wilf (Sep 14, 2020)

Rochdale has cases in 10 schools, or perhaps pupils with covid who _go to_ 10 different schools (or some mix of the 2). My mum taught at 2 of them. 








						Full list of schools with coronavirus outbreaks - see if yours is affected
					

Geoff Barton, general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, has warned that more and more schools will shut as the winter closes in and cases rise




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## MrSki (Sep 15, 2020)

883 schools today.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 15, 2020)

I suppose the key question is whether it is spreading _in _schools. Do we know that yet, particularly as the testing regime is currently omnifucked?

Fresher's week next week in some places, so there's a real chance  of 2 distinct spreading patterns within some towns and cities, spreads within the school age and their families/communities along with concentrations in student accommodation with the potential to taken back to their home towns.  That's all very tentative and has plenty of ifs and buts, but none of the trends are looking good (in terms of infections as least. Hospitalisation still much lower). Grim. Again.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> 883 schools today.



#worldbeating


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 15, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I suppose the key question is whether it is spreading _in _schools. Do we know that yet, particularly as the testing regime is currently omnifucked?



Yes this is a really important question.  Is the situation in the schools just reflecting the population as a whole or is there active spread in schools?

At the start of the pandemic there were quite a few voices saying that children don't get the virus.  More recently this has shifted to there being a very low chance of children passing the virus on.  If the virus does spread among children the say way as it does adults then I really don't know where we go from here.  Its vitally important for so many reasons for children to be able to attend school.


----------



## Thora (Sep 15, 2020)

My toddler seems to have caught it at preschool and passed it on to at least me, and another child


----------



## elbows (Sep 15, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Yes this is a really important question.  Is the situation in the schools just reflecting the population as a whole or is there active spread in schools?
> 
> At the start of the pandemic there were quite a few voices saying that children don't get the virus.  More recently this has shifted to there being a very low chance of children passing the virus on.  If the virus does spread among children the say way as it does adults then I really don't know where we go from here.  Its vitally important for so many reasons for children to be able to attend school.



Its just bullshit designed to provide cover for their economic and education priorities.

Double-think on the subject is never far away either. Because its freely acknowledged that when schools go back then viruses are passed around a lot. But we are invited to believe that this coronavirus will somehow be different, even though a proportion of the colds they talk about spreading in schools are caused by other coronaviruses.


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I suppose the key question is whether it is spreading _in _schools. Do we know that yet, particularly as the testing regime is currently omnifucked?



Colds and sniffles are definitely spreading within schools right now.

Is there any reason why Covid wouldn't follow suit?


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

Schools should stay open though.

Universities should go online.

All non-essential workplaces should shut (WFH or furlough until they finally get over themselves and introduce ubi).


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Colds and sniffles are definitely spreading within schools right now.
> 
> Is there any reason why Covid wouldn't follow suit?



Always seemed logical to me but there have been plenty of voices suggesting otherwise and not all were politicians, some were seemingly far more qualified to make such observations



chilango said:


> Schools should stay open though.
> 
> Universities should go online.
> 
> All non-essential workplaces should shut (WFH or furlough until they finally get over themselves and introduce ubi).



I agree but it's not great for the teachers though.


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> I agree but it's not great for the teachers though.



It's not

But if you shut _all_ non-essential workplaces then you should also significantly reduce the childcare burden on schools enabling far more parents to keep kids at home when there's any doubt.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 15, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Always seemed logical to me but there have been plenty of voices suggesting otherwise and not all were politicians, some were seemingly far more qualified to make such observations
> 
> 
> 
> I agree but it's not great for the teachers though.



I'm a teacher, I want to stay open. I don't think teachers with health conditions that put them at risk should have to go in. We should have a proper testing system that allows multiple staff and students to get tested whenever needed. We're fucked.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Sep 15, 2020)

Wilf said:


> along with concentrations in student accommodation with the potential to taken back to their home towns


And anyone working in student-adjacent industries - taxi drivers, takeaway workers, bar/club staff, cleaners, etc.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> Schools should stay open though.



And those teachers over 50, if not all teachers with serious underlying conditions, should be excused. This is my life being played with.




nagapie said:


> I'm a teacher, I want to stay open. I don't think teachers with health conditions that put them at risk should have to go in. We should have a proper testing system that allows multiple staff and students to get tested whenever needed. We're fucked.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> And those teachers over 50, if not all teachers with serious underlying conditions, should be excused. This is my life being played with.


I think if you have a concern about your ability to cope with covid you should be entitled to say you're not coming in.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 15, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I think if you have a concern about your ability to cope with covid you should be entitled to say you're not coming in.



So do I. And yet, despite the management being fully aware of my situation, this option has not even been raised as a possibility.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> So do I. And yet, despite the management being fully aware of my situation, this option has not even been raised as a possibility.


I would consider getting signed off with stress. I know it shouldn't be the way you have to do it but none of this business is being handled in the best way. Government are not protecting people so management are unlikely to differ in their approach.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> So do I. And yet, despite the management being fully aware of my situation, this option has not even been raised as a possibility.



What have OH said?


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 15, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> What have OH said?



Haven't spoken to them. Yes, maybe I should.


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> And those teachers over 50, if not all teachers with serious underlying conditions, should be excused. This is my life being played with.



Yep.
Absolutely.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 15, 2020)

I have no idea why the ten sessions a week I deliver on personal development have to be in a classroom with ten different bubbles. Especially as they're all computing students.


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

A school could be a very different, and better, place during this Pandemic. But that would've required rethinking the priorities and the purposes of a "good education". Those with the power to take such decisions are both unwilling and unable to contemplate this...as seen during the A-level farce.


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> And those teachers over 50, if not all teachers with serious underlying conditions, should be excused. This is my life being played with.



Also no worker, in any job, should feel under pressure to enter a workplace they feel unsafe in.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 15, 2020)

elbows said:


> Its just bullshit designed to provide cover for their economic and education priorities.
> 
> Double-think on the subject is never far away either. Because its freely acknowledged that when schools go back then viruses are passed around a lot. But we are invited to believe that this coronavirus will somehow be different, even though a proportion of the colds they talk about spreading in schools are caused by other coronaviruses.



Fucking BOOM! by the way.


----------



## elbows (Sep 15, 2020)

Thanks. What I was going on about goes beyond this government or governments in general. There is bias that extends well into the medical and research communities against massively inconvenient truths. And there have always been massive gaps in disease surveillance, caused in part by the tendency to diminish the role of things that are only experienced as mild illnesses by the majority, certain age-groups etc. There are so many resulting contradictions, many of which children would have little trouble in figuring out if the issues were framed and explained properly.

We wont necessarily see nice, tidy conclusions coming from research into school outbreaks and spread during this pandemic. Because its hard to look at factors in isolation, and some of the bias will remain. Plus the roles of schools in epidemic spread extends well beyond the direct spread involving children and teachers, since when schools are closed the behaviour of adults is also changed (eg due to childcare issues).

Poeple that should know better cannot help themselves from equating mild and short Covid-19 illnesses in children with lower risk of transmission. Part of this is down to the same flawed logic we saw involved with all the denial about the role of asymptomatic cases. Naive ideas about transmission vectors that require a person to have coughy, sneezy etc symptoms to spread the virus in the most obvious ways that are in reality only a fraction of the full picture. And things that might actually be true and help to reduce the chances of a child spreading it to someone else, such as the possibility that they are infectious for less days than adults, are seized upon far too strongly. Its fine to point these things out but not in isolation, because for example a child may be infectious for less time but their level of viral shedding might be higher during the period where they are infectious. Have to consider both duration and intensity when trying to get the true picture.

Teachers are also used to inadequate measures being imposed from above, and have direct lived experience of how their profession exposes them to lots and lots of seasonal viruses during normal times. We used to joke with my mum about how she didnt get ill very often because her immune system had seen it all before via the reception age kids she taught for many years.


----------



## chilango (Sep 15, 2020)

913 schools now


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2020)

Oh this will end well


----------



## elbows (Sep 15, 2020)

By the way those were just examples in my last post of looking at one possible fact optimistically and then ignoring another dimension entirely. Because like so many other areas of respiratory viral research, I dont think human understanding to date is usually clear and certain enough that I can go throwing such things around as if they are absolute proven facts. And its not hard to find studies whose findings contradict each other. Under such conditions I make no secret of the fact that I am biased towards anything that is a good fit for precautionary principals.

Some countries took a precautionary approach by favouring the introduction of various distance-learning initiatives, part time returns to classroom etc. These are imperfect from an educational perspective but still better than a total shambles where the goal to keep schools open runs the risk of falling off the rails completely. But such things require actual effort and are not generally compatible with the non-educational childcare/go back to work agenda, and so they have not happened in this country much.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 15, 2020)

chilango said:


> 913 schools now



Nice of someone to try and keep count.








						DfE doesn't know how many schools have covid cases
					

The Department for Education does not hold information on the number of confirmed cases of coronavirus in schools, a Freedom of Information request has revealed. The return to school has been




					schoolsweek.co.uk


----------



## Aladdin (Sep 15, 2020)

Over here (Ireland) the government has released their strategy for the next 6 to 8 months.
There are 5 levels of response.
We are apparently at level 2 currently although Dublin is somewhere between 2 and 3. 
Stage 5 is full on lockdown. 

However..... at no stage at any level are schools or colleges to close
😳😳😳
Even when shops, restaurants, hotels, funerals...only 10 mourners..no gyms..no sports..no indoor or outdoor anything...6 guests at weddings..no pools..no sports indoors or outdoors..religious services online..essential retail only..no clubs, pubs, hotels, hairdressers, take aways or delivery allowed..stay at home...can only go 5km from home..

But.. 
All creches, schools, colleges and universities are to open.
Wtf???





__





						Resilience and Recovery 2020-2021: Plan for Living with COVID-19
					






					www.gov.ie


----------



## baldrick (Sep 15, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> Nice of someone to try and keep count.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a DfE webform for schools to report on absence daily. I know some schools are not completing it, as it isn't statutory.

This form and variations thereof have been in action for six months, and the DfE still haven't managed to organise an API from school MIS suppliers. This would both increase the accuracy of data and reduce a small bit of covid-related admin for schools - win win right, so obviously it hasn't happened.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> 913 schools now



What a fucking mess this Disgraced Government is  

Out of interest how many schools are there? Be interested to know what % have infections now?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)

Badgers said:


> What a fucking mess this Disgraced Government is
> 
> Out of interest how many schools are there? Be interested to know what % have infections now?


Around 30,000, around 2.5%


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 230554


2.80% to 2dp


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> 2.80% to 2dp


I wonder what percentage of your posts are as overscrupulous and arguably nugatory as this one?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)

In b4 "2.8"


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 16, 2020)

Oooh nugatory is a new word for me.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Haven't spoken to them. Yes, maybe I should.


OH so often gets used by employers as a threat. I did a pre-emptive strike (on the advice of my GP) by asking to be referred to them, which caused much consternation amongst my inept management, but deprived them of the OH threat, AND gave me backup for my position.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> Oooh nugatory is a new word for me.


I think it's the chewy stuff in a Mars bar


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 16, 2020)

Do they not even have those gun thermometers to check every child. When I went to my gp surgery they had one.

It's all very well 'prioritising education' but saying "all schools must open, here's a list of out of date symptoms" isn't prioritising education.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 16, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Do they not even have those gun thermometers to check every child


A lot of schools don't have paper, books or other basic equipment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I wonder what percentage of your posts are as overscrupulous and arguably nugatory as this one?


I wonder how many of your posts contain overaccurate numbers. No one wants to see 2.798291119 at this time in the morning


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Do they not even have those gun thermometers to check every child. When I went to my gp surgery they had one.


Kill or cure. I was in a tapas restaurant last week which had having a gun thermometer held to your head as a condition of entry


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 16, 2020)

Badgers said:


> A lot of schools don't have paper, books or other basic equipment.



Yep they've never prioritised education up to now why would this be different.


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

928 at close of play yesterday (a couple of claims that Sky has said 1600).


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

I think - hard as it may be to believe - the Government has a plan here.

Let cases mount in schools (and Universities) until theres widespread pressure from parents (students) to shut.

Government can "bow" to the pressure and thus wash it's hands of the decision to close, claiming it tried to keep open but people couldn't follow the rules.

Meanwhile with every day that passes ££££££.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> I think - hard as it may be to believe - the Government has a plan here.
> 
> Let cases mount in schools (and Universities) until theres widespread pressure from parents (students) to shut.
> 
> ...


It's not a very good plan, but one worthy of baldrick johnson


----------



## Thora (Sep 16, 2020)

2 of the 5 schools in my town have shut classes (seemingly unrelated) and we’re in quite a low case area, so only 3% of schools nationally seems low me.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 16, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Do they not even have those gun thermometers to check every child. When I went to my gp surgery they had one.


What sort of range do they have ?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Sep 16, 2020)

The village school here had a positive case in year 1 so sent the whole year home, but then had another positive case in another year and decided to just exclude that child and their siblings but keep the rest of the year group bubble in school.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 16, 2020)

According to toryfibs up to 980 now.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Sep 16, 2020)

Gathering in 6 is banned but kids have to go to school. They've not thought this through have they.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 16, 2020)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Gathering in 6 is banned but kids have to go to school. They've not thought this through have they.


I think they have thought about it and decided that the risk to teachers, kids and families means nothing compared to making sure workers have no excuses to not turn up


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

Secondary School round the corner from me, whose kids I have to walk past twice a day, now joins the list.


----------



## Thora (Sep 16, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> The village school here had a positive case in year 1 so sent the whole year home, but then had another positive case in another year and decided to just exclude that child and their siblings but keep the rest of the year group bubble in school.


Schools are being pressured not to send whole classes home but just look at "close contacts".  Obviously in primary that's bullshit.  My Year 6 child sits on a desk with two others facing the front during class but in the playground they're all wrestling with each other.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> Schools are being pressured not to send whole classes home but just look at "close contacts".  Obviously in primary that's bullshit.  My Year 6 child sits on a desk with two others facing the front during class but in the playground they're all wrestling with each other.



Yeah.  I was speaking with my sister who is a primary school teacher and teaches 6 year olds.  All her's have various forms of sniffles and coughs and as you say with the best laid plans regarding distancing they are still 6 year olds.  Its just impossible.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 16, 2020)

I read the guidance and saw that they don't have to send home a whole bubble just close contacts. Unclear whether that would include teachers - especially if they're pretending teachers can teach far enough away in a ventilated environment.   
(secondary).


----------



## LDC (Sep 16, 2020)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Gathering in 6 is banned but kids have to go to school. They've not thought this through have they.



That's not true though. It is thought through. There's been huge numbers of people and organisations pressurizing for schools to open from a whole host of directions, including lots motivated by concern for child welfare and long term prospects. In some ways the gathering limit is to try and balance that out.

I have huge concerns about the way this is being handled and the (lack of) resources provided, but hardly anyone is saying schools should have stayed shut now.


----------



## Thora (Sep 16, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> I read the guidance and saw that they don't have to send home a whole bubble just close contacts. Unclear whether that would include teachers - especially if they're pretending teachers can teach far enough away in a ventilated environment.
> (secondary).


When test & trace called me they were only interested in face to face contact under a 1m, skin to skin contact or under 2m for more than 15 minutes.  So I will assume in most classes over early years they're going to say teachers shouldn't be that close.


----------



## elbows (Sep 16, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I have huge concerns about the way this is being handled and the (lack of) resources provided, but hardly anyone is saying schools should have stayed shut now.



My stance is that they should not have reopened at full capacity. There should have been a staggered relaunch and some kind of rotation, but that wouldnt fit the governments wider economic priorities. And we should have pushed the rate of virus in the community lower in previous months, to have the best change of making the school reopening a success. eg by reopening other things at a different pace to what was done, not encouraging the mad holiday dash and the dash back when countries were added to quarantine list. But that would not have met the governments wider economic priorities either.

As for the future, they probably still have plans where they hope to have periods of damping down infections every so often by making school holidays longer and combining them with a period of lockdown. But things spiralled so quickly last time that they never got a chance to do it like that, they had to go further for longer instead, and the timing didnt line up nicely with holidays. The same could easily happen again this time.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> When test & trace called me they were only interested in face to face contact under a 1m, skin to skin contact or under 2m for more than 15 minutes.  So I will assume in most classes over early years they're going to say teachers shouldn't be that close.


Exactly.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 16, 2020)

Into 4 figures now.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)

3.06%


----------



## weepiper (Sep 16, 2020)

Ugh this is all giving me the fear.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2020)

Sigh.

Aaarghhhhhhh!

Get this.

Had a conversation with a staff member yesterday outlining my vulnerability. She was very empathetic as her 83 year old mother has the same condition as one I've got.

Fast forward to today. That same staff member got sent home at 11am. She'd come into briefing coughing her guts up first thing. Went home feeling ill at 11. *After telling management she'd had no sense of taste or smell since Monday. At no point when I spoke to her about my vulnerability did she mention this.*
So she's come to school for 3 days knowing she has symptoms associated with Covid. Because of her job, she is probably the staff member who has greatest close contact with the most number of kids.

Although I found out at midday she'd gone home and why, we weren't officially told anything until afternoon briefing at 3pm. And even then we were told "well as long as you've been socially distancing from her you should be alright".

Obviously I raised the contact with the kids point, who then all have contact with us. I asked for it to be confirmed she knew she had Covid symptoms dating from Monday. This was confirmed. I said "great" - and walked out.

Since then I have been bombarded with apologetic calls from management who have told me I can stay home - first (by one) until we get the results of her test and then by a higher manager was told 'for as long as I like until I feel comfortable. So, belatedly, they are at least being nice about this.

But what sort of fucking idiot comes to a school in the middle of a global pandemic knowingly with symptoms and says nothing? Those reading my posts on here know how disillusioned I am with some of my fellow staff - this is just a technicolour illustration of what I meant. It has destroyed my faith in people to do the right thing.

And there are two possibilities in my mind now.

First, the worst, that she is positive and there is a chance I could be fucked because of one person's utter irresponsibility.

And, and I have to say this, second...that she is actually making it up. It's not beyond her. She's full of shit at the best of times. She could easily fancy a couple of days off thinking there are no other consequences. The coughing this morning could be seen as theatrical. And we only have her word about the loss of taste/smell. *And this is causing me unbelievable stress she obviously doesn't care about or understand.*

My GP has been as reassuring as she can be. Slamming into this staff member for being irresponsible, but saying it's a tale she hears all too much. People not taking it seriously, people thinking they are invincible, people just not getting the transmission and contacts thing.

So now, for my own peace of mind, I sit here thinking up scenarios where it's going to be alright, that it's all bullshit on her part. While wondering if it is and completely failing to get my head around how someone can act like this in either scenario I've presented in the middle of a global pandemic.

I am...fucking livid. This doesn't just affect me. I have an older partner. Our lives now changed over the next few days. Let's hope it is just the next few days.

Fuck this.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 16, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Into 4 figures now.



One of them is the school that my three elder children went to (Mrs Q teaches at a different one where Youngest used to go) There was a confirmed case in Y12 or 13 so the entire 6th Form has been sent home for 2 weeks.


----------



## baldrick (Sep 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not a very good plan, but one worthy of baldrick johnson


Hey


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Sep 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I am...fucking livid. This doesn't just affect me. I have an older partner. Our lives now changed over the next few days. Let's hope it is just the next few days.


Fuck her. Get her fired. She deserves at least a severe written warning for being so stupid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

baldrick said:


> Hey


 not


----------



## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> When test & trace called me they were only interested in face to face contact under a 1m, skin to skin contact or under 2m for more than 15 minutes.



Bit bloody forward, aren't they?


----------



## baldrick (Sep 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Aaarghhhhhhh!
> 
> ...


 Huge sympathy. A teacher at my school has done the exact same thing, same symptoms. Only she went and got a test on Monday and somehow thought the reasonable thing to do would be to come to school anyway while waiting for the result. Sent home this morning because the result came through: positive. I just don't get it. My mind has been blown by the selfishness and lack of consideration. I was talking to her in the staff room yesterday, she wasn't wearing a mask.


----------



## Thora (Sep 16, 2020)

Just had an email about two confirmed cases at my oldest's school - though apparently the kids weren't at school during the infectious period so no need to take any action.


----------



## Thora (Sep 16, 2020)

baldrick said:


> Huge sympathy. A teacher at my school has done the exact same thing, same symptoms. Only she went and got a test on Monday and somehow thought the reasonable thing to do would be to come to school anyway while waiting for the result. Sent home this morning because the result came through: positive. I just don't get it. My mind has been blown by the selfishness and lack of consideration. I was talking to her in the staff room yesterday, she wasn't wearing a mask.


How on earth would anyone think it is ok to go to work while having symptoms requiring a test?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Sep 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> How on earth would anyone think it is ok to go to work while having symptoms requiring a test?


They're only teachers, there's no requirement for them to actually be intelligent, apparently.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Sep 16, 2020)

My eldest started secondary school less than 2 weeks ago.  Already a confirmed case in yr 8 - whole year "bubble" sent home to isolate while the school was waiting for further guidance from PHE and establishing which kids and staff had close contact with the kid in question.

Can't fault the school's response, that's exactly what they needed to do.  Scary though.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2020)

baldrick said:


> My mind has been blown by the selfishness and lack of consideration. I was talking to her in the staff room yesterday, she wasn't wearing a mask.



All of this, exactly this, 100%.

I cannot process this level of stupidity.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 16, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Fuck her. Get her fired. She deserves at least a severe written warning for being so stupid.



There is a problem with this - notwithstanding an issue with an employee who may take the piss (and there ARE those), working in schools (where you are reasonably well protected - I can't even imagine how this goes with zero hours/no sick pay/no paid time off for sick kids/multiple other shitty contracts) means you are used to being sent above for periods of absence (either total days or numbers of), which ultimately lead to various disciplinary procedures.
There are also layers of (thick, incapable) middle-management to work through but essentially, sickness is not looked on favourably, so there is a long standing dilemma about _how sick_ you need to be - and that is not easily let go, especially when you may feel your job is already under threat.

So - calling someone out for being 'stupid', when they've been actively encouraged to come into work ill, for years? It doesn't really work.

Once again, if there was adequate testing in place, this would be less of an issue (including diminishing the bad feeling it creates between colleagues).


----------



## Pingety Pong (Sep 16, 2020)

That's ridiculously selfish of those colleagues to come in despite having symptoms. I would be so, so angry.

At my school, we haven't had any confirmed cases yet but our headteacher said she fully expects a few year groups having to isolate by the end of the week because there are so many pupils awaiting test results. But until they are confirmed as being positive, none of their close contacts have been told to isolate which surely doesn't make sense?

I am starting to feel really panicky - we are in an area where numbers are ridiculously high and we have small classrooms with 30+ kids in crammed in. The windows - like in so many new schools - only open by a couple of inches. It seems almost inevitable that we will all get it.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> So - calling someone out for being 'stupid', when they've been actively encouraged to come into work ill, for years? It doesn't really work.



FTR, it goes against my principles, short of massive gross misconduct or negligence or similar, to put anyone out of a job. I would never do that.

But the scenario you're outlining here isn't really the case in these Covid times. Nobody is now being actively encouraged to come to work with Covid symptoms. The opposite is true. And this is a case of known symptoms. *In the middle of a global pandemic.* There is no excuse for this level of stupidity at the moment.

I won't attack her on the basis that she deserves to lose her job.

But fuck defending her in a context that simply doesn't apply right now.

She knew what she was doing. She doesn't deserve being excused in any way in the context of how we live and work right now with Covid.


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

1,011

They can't tough it out to half-term, can they?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,011
> 
> They can't tough it out to half-term, can they?


Highly doubtful. Everyone in my office feels we're just waiting for lockdown the sequel


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> They're only teachers, there's no requirement for them to actually be intelligent, apparently.


Those who can &c.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Highly doubtful. Everyone in my office feels we're just waiting for lockdown the sequel


The covid strikes back


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Highly doubtful. Everyone in my office feels we're just waiting for lockdown the sequel



Yeah. I know some schools are already mentioning the "o" word* again.

*online.


----------



## LDC (Sep 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I know some schools are already mentioning the "o" word* again.
> 
> *online.



First seriously ill teacher from school acquired infection might do it.


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> First seriously ill teacher from school acquired infection might do it.



...or, like last time attendance collapsing or quite possibly schools with too many staff self-isolating to function.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> There is a problem with this - notwithstanding an issue with an employee who may take the piss (and there ARE those), working in schools (where you are reasonably well protected - I can't even imagine how this goes with zero hours/no sick pay/no paid time off for sick kids/multiple other shitty contracts) means you are used to being sent above for periods of absence (either total days or numbers of), which ultimately lead to various disciplinary procedures.
> There are also layers of (thick, incapable) middle-management to work through but essentially, sickness is not looked on favourably, so there is a long standing dilemma about _how sick_ you need to be - and that is not easily let go, especially when you may feel your job is already under threat.
> 
> So - calling someone out for being 'stupid', when they've been actively encouraged to come into work ill, for years? It doesn't really work.
> ...


Yeh. For the past six months the normal rules have been ripped up. The clear advice has been not to come into work if you think you've got this novel virus. Maybe people have been actively encouraged to work when ill, not all have - where I work we've long been told not to come into work if ill. Stupid? Perhaps that's a bit much, but under the circumstances a reasonable description. Oh and for most people it's a rolling year governing the sickness absence days / occurrences. They'd have had to have had a bad autumn and winter to start running into procedure escalation now and there'd be hell to pay for any school whose management forced CV+ people to come in and work.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> FTR, it goes against my principles, short of massive gross misconduct or negligence or similar, to put anyone out of a job. I would never do that.
> 
> But the scenario you're outlining here isn't really the case in these Covid times. Nobody is now being actively encouraged to come to work with Covid symptoms. The opposite is true. And this is a case of known symptoms. *In the middle of a global pandemic.* There is no excuse for this level of stupidity at the moment.
> 
> ...


 Ftr, I don't disagree with any of that - it's the leap to 'get her fired' - and for context in the place that _I_ work (in a school and where we have have hundreds of kids passing through, daily, along with lots of other staff - and where my own direct managent aren't distancing as they should) it was just a reply to that. I think it's easier to respond loudly, when you don't work in education.

My further thoughts for today are that I DON'T think they will close schools (that's my bigger worry, that it'll just escalate at an increasingly scary rate, with schools further abandoned to make their own decisions) and also that the news I've seen today seemed to be around pacifying parents - that kids and parents should be a testing priority - with no mention of school staff. 
Tbf, just some cunt Tory, spitting out words - but I won't be surprised - they'll have the double win of keeping parents at work, along with looking like they're adhering to the cost/care of closures, on children, too.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 16, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> First seriously ill teacher from school acquired infection might do it.



How did that work for NHS staff and care homes? Obvs they couldn't close them - but PPE and testing? 
I'd expect it to be parents who forced a school shutdown, but furlough is ending and wfh being discouraged...


----------



## Thora (Sep 16, 2020)

Two people I know who work in (different) secondary schools have told me there are currently discussions about sending some years (probably 8 & 9) home due to staff shortages.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 16, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Fuck her. Get her fired. She deserves at least a severe written warning for being so stupid.


No, It's not her total responsibility. If management had been clear enough and showed that they meant it regarding staff not presenting with any symptom then I'd like to think even the biggest idiots or company men wouldn't turn in. But this hasn't been prioritised by the gvt/Welsh gvt or LEAs


sheothebudworths said:


> I'd expect it to be parents who forced a school shutdown, but furlough is ending and wfh being discouraged...


What the the teaching unions up to? They seemed to be pretty vocal at first, but I've not heard anything of late and in terms of the Tories plans, I think giving the teachers unions a good kicking is a bit of a side quest for them during these times


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 16, 2020)

nogojones said:


> No, It's not her total responsibility. If management had been clear enough and showed that they meant it regarding staff not presenting with any symptom then I'd like to think even the biggest idiots or company men wouldn't turn in. But this hasn't been prioritised by the gvt/Welsh gvt or LEAs
> 
> What the the teaching unions up to? They seemed to be pretty vocal at first, but I've not heard anything of late and in terms of the Tories plans, I think giving the teachers unions a good kicking is a bit of a side quest for them during these times



Well, tbc, I meant a complete closure (with the speculation that schools will shut again - my response was more around it being parents just withdrawing kids).

I think the various unions involved (not just teaching unions - school staff are widely represented, too - GMB, Unison etc) have been as busy as the schools have in trying to both pursue and catch up with constant last minute changes - remembering we have a gov who are openly deceitful and corrupt now - and that there IS a focus on keeping schools open. It's been made purposefully difficult to support that, against objecting to all the failures in provision and funding for schools, and now with testing, which is fucking essential - and was always promised for education reopening.

The unions were certainly shut out of lots of negotiations early on, even when the narrative was that the gov was 'in coverstaion' with unions and heads.
I saw, today, an open letter has been sent direct to Boris, bypassing that other useless fucker - 10 tests for each school, no matter what size it is (loads of bluffing from them today based on that) - schools with over 1,000 kids all struggling with that, obviously.

Erm, that didn't really answer your question! I think you're right that it's a job in hand, dismissing the union voice - I can only tell you that I've had very good communication from them here and that they are engaging well with the local authority for health advice etc (same as the schools), That's a problem though, eh - all of focus is being/has to be directed locally, with much better effect, but with no funding to do it.

I have also seen a fair bit from the teaching unions in the press, too, very recently - but the _return_ to schools was largely overshadowed by the exam shitshow - there was definitely a lapse in any news until the first week or two had passed, funnily enough.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. For the past six months the normal rules have been ripped up. The clear advice has been not to come into work if you think you've got this novel virus. Maybe people have been actively encouraged to work when ill, not all have - where I work we've long been told not to come into work if ill. Stupid? Perhaps that's a bit much, but under the circumstances a reasonable description. Oh and for most people it's a rolling year governing the sickness absence days / occurrences. They'd have had to have had a bad autumn and winter to start running into procedure escalation now and there'd be hell to pay for any school whose management forced CV+ people to come in and work.



Yep. And our 'rolling year' is an academic year, i.e September to September. There's no way anyone is rolling into sickness trouble 2 weeks into September. 10 days or 3 periods of absence is the rule.

But it is all about keeping schools open. With the situation I've explained today, and even though my management are bending over backwards this evening for me, the briefing manager said when explaining the situation that there will be no self-isolation for the whole school that has been in close contact with her or the kids she's had contact with until/if she comes back with a positive result. My situation is being treated differently because a) I have underlying conditions and b) because they are scared of me because I'm not afraid to speak my mind.

I won't be going back for a few days. Everyone else will. And, as Pingety Pong says, this does not make logical sense, only economic and political sense with the decision schools must stay open at all costs.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 16, 2020)

Literally the closest building to my kids' high school. The school kids will be walking along the canal with these students every day. It really feels like just a matter of time.









						Napier University virus cluster probed after cases linked to student flats
					

NHS Lothian are carrying out contact tracing after a number of positive cases at the Bainfield apartments in Edinburgh .




					www.google.com


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 16, 2020)

That's my understanding, too - nothing changes without a positive test - but there are very limited tests and schools have just been told they must be open, with limited funding to do so.
Symptoms for kids have changed, too, but haven't been updated when it comes to getting a test (if they could even get one).
I'm saving my anger for that, but it doesn't mean I'm not scared.


----------



## chilango (Sep 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...or, like last time attendance collapsing or quite possibly schools with too many staff self-isolating to function.



Guardian reckons that could already be 25,000 teachers out of school self-isolating, with some schools reporting 20% of staff out.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Guardian reckons that could already be 25,000 teachers out of school self-isolating, with some schools reporting 20% of staff out.



I can really imagine some wavering on symptoms that I know are much more common in kids, but which still aren't metnioned as any of the main three, too - for kids and staff, who're parents, too.
It's like a house of cards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Yep. And our 'rolling year' is an academic year, i.e September to September. There's no way anyone is rolling into sickness trouble 2 weeks into September. 10 days or 3 periods of absence is the rule.
> 
> But it is all about keeping schools open. With the situation I've explained today, and even though my management are bending over backwards this evening for me, the briefing manager said when explaining the situation that there will be no self-isolation for the whole school that has been in close contact with her or the kids she's had contact with until/if she comes back with a positive result. My situation is being treated differently because a) I have underlying conditions and b) because they are scared of me because I'm not afraid to speak my mind.
> 
> I won't be going back for a few days. Everyone else will. And, as Pingety Pong says, this does not make logical sense, only economic and political sense with the decision schools must stay open at all costs.


I hope you and your partner stay well


----------



## zahir (Sep 16, 2020)

I’m not sure if this has already been posted, but it’s worth emphasising.









						Back to school: the real symptoms to look out for in children
					

A new study from the COVID Symptom Study app,over half (52%) of children school aged children (those under the age of 18) who tested positive for COVID don’t log any ‘adult’ classic symptoms (cough, fever, anosmia) in the week before and after the test.




					covid.joinzoe.com
				





> According to research from the COVID Symptom Study app over half (52%) of children school aged children (those under the age of 18) who tested positive for COVID don’t log any ‘adult’ classic symptoms (cough, fever, anosmia) in the week before and after the test. In addition, a third (33%) of children who tested positive for COVID never logged any of the 20 symptoms listed in the App suggesting many children are asymptomatic.





> The research highlighted that children display a different range of symptoms compared to the overall adult population. The top five symptoms in school aged children who test positive for COVID are; fatigue (55%) headache (53%), fever (49%), sore throat (38%) and loss of appetite (35%). This was different compared to the App’s data on adults; fatigue (87%), headache (72%), loss of smell (60%), persistent cough (54%) and sore throat (49%). In addition to this, research from the app has also found that one in six (15%) children who test positive for COVID also present with an unusual skin rash.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2020)

zahir said:


> I’m not sure if this has already been posted, but it’s worth emphasising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sore throat and fatigue you say? Think i might have had it then, had a really irritating and persistent sore throat in march


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2020)

Don't be  frogwoman Badgers I've been fine ever since


----------



## elbows (Sep 17, 2020)

Meanwhile in New York City there seems to be a bit more room for reality to influence plans.









						New York City again delays in-person learning for most students
					

New York City has again delayed the start of in-person learning for most of the more than 1 million students in its public school system.




					www.pbs.org
				






> NEW YORK (AP) — New York City has again delayed the start of in-person learning for most of the more than 1 million students in its public school system.
> 
> Mayor Bill de Blasio announced Thursday that most elementary school students would do remote-only learning until Sept. 29. Middle and high schools would stay remote through Oct. 1.





> The delay came just days before students across the nation’s largest school district were set to resume in-person instruction Monday. Now, only pre-kindergarten students and some other special education students will be going back into physical classrooms next week.
> 
> De Blasio and union leaders said the city needed more time to prepare for students to return to school buildings.


----------



## Thora (Sep 17, 2020)

My 6 year old's class, while technically still in school, only had 15 children out of 30 actually attending today.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 17, 2020)

Coronavirus: Swansea's Olchfa school sends home 455 pupils
					

One of Wales' biggest schools sends home most of its sixth form.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




That's a huge 6th form.

Or was.


----------



## chilango (Sep 17, 2020)

Thora said:


> My 6 year old's class, while technically still in school, only had 15 children out of 30 actually attending today.



Off sick or pulled out by worried parents?


----------



## Thora (Sep 17, 2020)

chilango said:


> Off sick or pulled out by worried parents?


I don't know - two nursery classes are out so some will be siblings, I know a couple of children have symptoms/siblings with symptoms and one child whose mum is a self-isolating staff member.  No idea about the rest but I guess lots with coughs and temperatures unable to get tests.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 17, 2020)

Youngest's school emailed yesterday to say there has been a COVID case confirmed but school open as usual.....


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 17, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> Youngest's school emailed yesterday to say there has been a COVID case confirmed but school open as usual.....



The way it was worded, the case could have been a parent, I guess, but not sure


----------



## chilango (Sep 17, 2020)

1,118+ now.


----------



## baldrick (Sep 17, 2020)

We have only Y7 and half of Y10 in school tomorrow (due to year groups/bubbles self isolating) I think the likelihood of any children at all being able to attend school on Monday is fairly minimal.

We have only one case among staff though. I don't know what to make of that tbh.


----------



## Mation (Sep 18, 2020)

clicker said:


> I appreciate they must be busy, but they  need to update those letters they're sending out . The list of symptoms  people need to look for have now increased, especially when it comes to children.
> 
> He even puts down the child in question had an upset stomach and nausea , which we  have actually been told is a symptom ; yet he states having that symptom made them quite shocked at the positive test??
> 
> It's worrying that a school found that shocking.


He says clearly that parents should watch out for their children having stomach upset and nausea as possibly being covid.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 18, 2020)

My lad's Success Coach did an online session with his class yesterday, she was coughing and hacking throughout and is self-isolating. He hasn't seen her in person for two weeks. Mild flash of panic before I heard that for me. I can't keep having this, I mean I dry retch _every morning_ before a sort of resignedness settles on me and I go to work.

Yesterday I did lunch duty 11-1, the first one since masks in all communal areas became mandatory. Because of where I was standing I ended up both directing students to their curriculum "zones* allotted to them in the refectory but far more than that I was challenging students walking in the front door of college and in the open corridor parallel to the refectory area.

So many students and even one or two staff needed reminding to put their masks on upon entry to the college. So many students had them in their hands and clearly only masked up as I happened to be there. So many students didn't mask up to move between the refectory area and the main doors "I'm off outside!" was called over many shoulders (it's probably fewer than ten yards but still.)

The worst of all imo are many, many students and a group of senior management who came in the front doors maskless and walked 10, 20 or more yards fiddling with masks but not having them on properly, and in the process passing many others presumably not in their bubble. 

Was a very stressful couple of hours even though I made sure I thanked students wearing masks properly and complimenting them for unusual or stylish ones. It's like I had a live crash course in how viruses spread in educational establishments.


----------



## clicker (Sep 18, 2020)

Mation said:


> He says clearly that parents should watch out for their children having stomach upset and nausea as possibly being covid.


Yes he does.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 18, 2020)

The school I run has lost five staff due to Covid test delays. This can't go on | Jules White
					

Headteachers already feel abandoned to face the prospect of staff shortages and whole year-groups quarantined, says Jules White




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 18, 2020)

Badgers said:


> The school I run has lost five staff due to Covid test delays. This can't go on | Jules White
> 
> 
> Headteachers already feel abandoned to face the prospect of staff shortages and whole year-groups quarantined, says Jules White
> ...


A cry from the heart


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,118+ now.


1,199


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,199


1,230


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)




----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)




----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2020)

This is where that stuff is from by the way: National COVID-19 surveillance reports


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 18, 2020)

Just received a text saying staff member has proved negative. So, hooray. But sorry to say I expected this and atm am of the opinion she was bullshitting all along and I look forward to her explanation of why she came to school for 3 days with knowing Covid symptoms forcing me to isolate from my partner in a small house, no sleeping together and wiping down every single item I've touched for over 48 hours.

However, also in the text was info another staff member has gone for a test and I'm not to return until that is negative too.


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,230



1,251


----------



## existentialist (Sep 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,251


Is someone graphing this?


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Is someone graphing this?



I'm sure that the DfE are on the case.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 18, 2020)

chilango said:


> I'm sure that the DfE are on the case.


You are? I'm not


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2020)

existentialist said:


> You are? I'm not



Did you see the FoI request that revealed they've not been recording which schools have had cases?


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 18, 2020)

There has been this change








						DfE revamps covid reporting system after school delays
					

The government has set up a national helpline for schools to report positive coronavirus cases following some being left in "limbo" waiting three days to get official health advice. A Schools Week investigation revealed yesterday how schools were waiting days for advice from local health...




					schoolsweek.co.uk
				




But that doesn't necessarily mean they're keeping count.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 18, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Is someone graphing this?


here you go


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 18, 2020)

Pupils off in four out of five schools in England waiting for Covid tests
					

School leaders say government has ‘failed schools and children’ as Eton pays for private tests for all staff and pupils




					www.theguardian.com
				




So, no surprise, but there IS provision and testing capacity for _private_ schools, using _private providers _(would they be the same lot we're funding to undertake tests everywhere else?), which appears to be running quite efficiently.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 18, 2020)

Tory Fibs is doing her/his  own database.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 19, 2020)

chilango said:


> Did you see the FoI request that revealed they've not been recording which schools have had cases?


No, I didn't. They must have borrowed that trick from DWP and their careful non-recording of benefits-withdrawal-related suicides.


----------



## baldrick (Sep 19, 2020)

chilango said:


> Did you see the FoI request that revealed they've not been recording which schools have had cases?


There is a facility for schools to report on covid related attendance daily but it isn't statutory. I know a number of schools are not completing it. In theory PHE should have the information anyway. But they've been overwhelmed.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 19, 2020)

Message from SisterBadgers (Primary school teacher in Yorkshire)


----------



## Thora (Sep 19, 2020)

Rash is a common symptom in children.


----------



## LDC (Sep 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> Rash is a common symptom in children.



Do you keep your kid off if they get a isolated rash though? Think currently the advice is not.


----------



## Thora (Sep 19, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Do you keep your kid off if they get a isolated rash though? Think currently the advice is not.


No you're not supposed to.  But given only half of symptomatic kids get fevers and less get coughs I'd be thinking about covid if they had the more common symptoms (headache, sore throat, rash etc).


----------



## Badgers (Sep 19, 2020)

Thora said:


> Rash is a common symptom in children.


I think most people know that 


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Do you keep your kid off if they get a isolated rash though? Think currently the advice is not.


No. As per the message she had a cold plus a rash.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 19, 2020)

Honestly I think, much as I hate to say it, it would just be better to plan that schools will be shut for the 'spring' term. I mean, they will be shut long before then, but I don't think they should even plan schools to go in, at least not secondaries, Jan-March, unless there is an amazing breakthrough in treatment, testing or prevention before then.


----------



## chilango (Sep 20, 2020)

Just happened to be on Eton's shot put and hammer field today. Yeah, they they have a dedicated facility just for shot put and hammer. Driving past their extensive cricket fields and tennis complexes. made me doubly angry.

for the obvious reasons of course.

...but also those kids and their parents have literally acres of space to socially distance whilst looking at the crowds of kids and parents at my local primary crammed cheek to jowel on a narrow pavement with streams of cars whizzing past and kids weaving in and out on bikes - all with no chance of avoiding catching or spreading the virus.

murdering public school bastards in charge.


----------



## chilango (Sep 20, 2020)

1,332


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 21, 2020)

(Cross-posted from 'Pandemic Personal Consequences' thread, when I remembered this thread. 

Eldest boy's school mailed at 8:30pm last night to say they'd been informed of a confirmed case 'in the school community' and were closed today to take advice from the appropriate authorities. We paid a fortune to a top SEN solicitor to make the LA send him to a decent SEN school and so far he's been there 2 weeks, watching cartoons because half the teachers aren't in. They finally managed to get his LA transport sorted for this morning and we had to send them away.

Meanwhile, youngest boys school have reported two cases 'in the community' and stayed open.

Is 'in the community' code for 'not a pupil or teacher' I wonder? If so, if they are going to close every time a relative tests positive. it's going to closures all over the place.


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,332



1,380


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> (Cross-posted from 'Pandemic Personal Consequences' thread, when I remembered this thread.
> 
> Eldest boy's school mailed at 8:30pm last night to say they'd been informed of a confirmed case 'in the school community' and were closed today to take advice from the appropriate authorities. We paid a fortune to a top SEN solicitor to make the LA send him to a decent SEN school and so far he's been there 2 weeks, watching cartoons because half the teachers aren't in. They finally managed to get his LA transport sorted for this morning and we had to send them away.
> 
> ...



it could be a parent. or a cleaner or a dinner lady or the lollipop man or a governor or...

...well you get the drift. "school community" is just a useful umbrella term.


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,380


1,401


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,401



1,439


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 21, 2020)

The other thing that Miss Loop and I were discussing is that if you're properly posh, you don't have to worry about your children bringing Coronavirus home every day. 'Cos they're not coming home 'til Christmas, what-ho.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> it could be a parent. or a cleaner or a dinner lady or the lollipop man or a governor or...
> 
> ...well you get the drift. "school community" is just a useful umbrella term.



It's a teacher, it's turns out. My son's teacher in fact. Class closed for 2 weeks


----------



## Thora (Sep 21, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> It's a teacher, it's turns out. My son's teacher in fact. Class closed for 2 weeks


This is going to be the way it is now I think, two weeks on/two weeks off.  We're going to end up with part time/blended learning despite the government being able to claim they have schools fully open and full time for all.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 21, 2020)

Cloo said:


> Honestly I think, much as I hate to say it, it would just be better to plan that schools will be shut for the 'spring' term. I mean, they will be shut long before then, but I don't think they should even plan schools to go in, at least not secondaries, Jan-March, unless there is an amazing breakthrough in treatment, testing or prevention before then.


Dear god no.  Never going to happen.

And nor should it. Kids need school. At the very least the eldest four years need to be in, and have a fair crack at their exams. But too many homes which may normally cope, are not safe or nurturing places when everyone is home 24/7. And even when families aren’t struggling, it’s a rare child who is engaging fully with work and social stimulation at anything even approaching normal levels when stuck at home.

But at any rate, it just won’t happen.  The govt sees closing schools nationally as anathema, and there’s no public will for it - which wasn’t the case in the spring.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 21, 2020)

Thora said:


> This is going to be the way it is now I think, two weeks on/two weeks off.  We're going to end up with part time/blended learning despite the government being able to claim they have schools fully open and full time for all.



And for my autistic boy, who has just moved to an additional needs school, as he was so far behind his peers in his mainstream school, the chasm widens


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 21, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> And for my autistic boy, who has just moved to an additional needs school, as he was so far behind his peers in his mainstream school, the chasm widens


Hard to know what they can do, though.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 21, 2020)

What makes me angry is that it’s just a matter of money.  Schools could be completely safe, with routine weekly testing of all staff and students, if enough money was thrown at it.  If it’s happening at private schools then it can be done.


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Dear god no.  Never going to happen.
> 
> And nor should it. Kids need school. At the very least the eldest four years need to be in, and have a fair crack at their exams. But too many homes which may normally cope, are not safe or nurturing places when everyone is home 24/7. And even when families aren’t struggling, it’s a rare child who is engaging fully with work and social stimulation at anything even approaching normal levels when stuck at home.
> 
> But at any rate, it just won’t happen.  The govt sees closing schools nationally as anathema, and there’s no public will for it - which wasn’t the case in the spring.



There's plenty of other stuff that will or should shut first.


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

My wife is a teacher. Kid in her tutor group is off awaiting test results. Close colleague also off awaiting results.

Feels inevitable at this point.

If she doesn't pick it up, I will either from campus or from schools I work with.

If we get lucky twice, my daughter is at school f/t.

Focussing on staying strong and fit right now.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 21, 2020)

My issue is that I’m not sure about seeing friends or family socially any more.  Because I’m now surely a high risk to their safety, because of the exposure I’m facing.  

I live on my own now anyway.  It’s a bit of a sad thing.  I’m going to feel the lack of hugs soon.


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> My issue is that I’m not sure about seeing friends or family socially any more.  Because I’m now surely a high risk to their safety, because of the exposure I’m facing.
> 
> I live on my own now anyway.  It’s a bit of a sad thing.  I’m going to feel the lack of hugs soon.



Yep. I'm lucky not only do I have my family with me but many of friends are  in the same boat as me (Uni or teachers), but have still had to "say goodbye" to people who I won't see 'till we get to the other side of this for the same reasons of higher exposure.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> Yep. I'm lucky not only do I have my family with me but many of friends are  in the same boat as me (Uni or teachers), but have still had to "say goodbye" to people who I won't see 'till we get to the other side of this for the same reasons of higher exposure.


Whereas some of my closest friends are medically vulnerable (so am I, but that’s a whole other... whatever.  I’ve made my peace with my own exposure to risk), and my mum is both old and vulnerable herself - but also lives alone and is really depressed for the first time in her life because she’s lonely.  

At least I’m not lonely.  I have a thousand or so people around me all day at work...!


----------



## Thora (Sep 21, 2020)

With children not having a priority for tests, I guess it will mean fewer bubbles closing for positive cases - children with symptoms will either isolate (or take some calpol and go in) but none of their contacts will need to. Number of cases in schools will start looking much better.


----------



## baldrick (Sep 21, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> My issue is that I’m not sure about seeing friends or family socially any more.  Because I’m now surely a high risk to their safety, because of the exposure I’m facing.


I feel exactly the same. I've said no to all the social things that involve being indoors with other people. My husband's training to be a teacher this year as well so I feel like it's just a matter of time now. I really don't want to be responsible for spreading it.


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,439


1,481


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 21, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,439


Are you getting this from the tory fib database or something else?


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Are you getting this from the tory fib database or something else?



Tory Fibs. Seems the most "live" count.

Don't want to embed the tweet every time though.


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,481



1,501


----------



## existentialist (Sep 22, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Hard to know what they can do, though.





spanglechick said:


> What makes me angry is that it’s just a matter of money.  Schools could be completely safe, with routine weekly testing of all staff and students, if enough money was thrown at it.  If it’s happening at private schools then it can be done.


There. You answered your own question 

I agree that having schools open is definitely desirable, more from a socialisation/wellbeing POV than the exams one (but I appreciate why you, as an educator, come at this from a different perspective), but it all comes back to test-and-trace.

I simply don't understand am appalled by how the Government seems to have poured almost all of its ineptitude and venality into every "attempt" it has made to get moving on test and trace, to the extent that, nearly six months down the line, we still have virtually nothing that is practically useful in place. Maybe, if they hadn't been so fucking clodhopping about it, they might _still_ not have got it going, but at least they could say they tried. Right now, it's very hard to escape the notion that they couldn't give a fuck. 

Which then makes decisions like opening schools into a vexed question, because of the problems - such as described by Harry Smiles - when someone shows symptoms or suspects that they're infected.

Some countries seem to be managing one-hour turnaround testing - assuming it's valid, then why on earth can't we?


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 22, 2020)

It's interesting the extent to which it's absolutely unquestioned that the best place for all children is in school. I've always been a bit of a fan of the writings of John Taylor Gatto and so I guess I imagined that there were some people out their who maybe thought the same way. I mean, I appreciate that there are specific circumstances, like where children have special needs and the support (what little there is left post-austerity) is co-ordinated via the school, and since the Tories fucked the welfare state schools are now often a sole point of contact for children who need the kinds of help that in a saner society would be provided some other way (due to poverty, abusive/neglectful/chaotic home environments etc). But our local state school is basically a steaming heap of shit, and my two school-age ones seemed much better off out of it.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 22, 2020)

Fruitloop said:


> It's interesting the extent to which it's absolutely unquestioned that the best place for all children is in school.



It's not, we have debated at length on Urban all the ills and wrongs of school. Yet as a parent and teacher I cannot deny that both my kids missed and needed school deeply and that all of my students just want to be back and stay back.
We have schools and so when we don't, we leave a vacuum that has not been filled by society/parents/etc in what would be a more utopian state for children.


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 22, 2020)

I guess in some cases I don't think the vacuum is such a bad thing. In fact one of the points that Gatto makes is that children always used to live in more or less that vacuum, and the idea that we need to fill their time with stuff one way or another is a pretty new one. Even in my own childhood I remember the situation being that you had to find your own stuff to do and stay out of the way, otherwise you'd be given something to do and that something would be a chore.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 22, 2020)

Fruitloop said:


> But our local state school is basically a steaming heap of shit, and my two school-age ones seemed much better off out of it.



This is an argument for the necessary improvement of state schools (perhaps starting with the abolition of private education) not an argument for the removal of formal education that we've barely had for a century for people from backgrounds like mine.


----------



## elbows (Sep 22, 2020)

> The number of schools in England sending home groups of pupils because of Covid-19 incidents has quadrupled in a week, according to the latest official figures.
> 
> Based on attendance last Thursday, they show 4% of schools not fully open because of confirmed or suspected cases - up from 1% the previous week.
> 
> ...











						Quadrupling in schools sending pupils home in Covid cases
					

School attendance figures for England show big rise in pupils sent home because of Covid-19 incidents.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## baldrick (Sep 22, 2020)

I think this week's attendance will be massively lower still. Just from what I'm seeing locally. I appreciate it's very specific circumstances (inner city Birmingham) but schools I'm in contact with have all seen bubbles go home this week where they were fully open last week. Some schools only have 20-30% of kids in. The rest are isolating.


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2020)

elbows said:


> Quadrupling in schools sending pupils home in Covid cases
> 
> 
> School attendance figures for England show big rise in pupils sent home because of Covid-19 incidents.
> ...



Those attendance figures more or less tally with Tory Fibs' numbers which are moving to 5% of schools with outbreaks.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 22, 2020)

Fruitloop said:


> I guess in some cases I don't think the vacuum is such a bad thing. In fact one of the points that Gatto makes is that children always used to live in more or less that vacuum, and the idea that we need to fill their time with stuff one way or another is a pretty new one. Even in my own childhood I remember the situation being that you had to find your own stuff to do and stay out of the way, otherwise you'd be given something to do and that something would be a chore.


I don't think I could really compare my childhood to the one of today, with all its technology. Nevertheless at secondary age I filled my childhood with things that children shouldn't be doing, so I suggest that it's not that straightforward. Certainly most of the children I teach told me that they did very little and found the experience joyless and restrictive. There is also a difference between unfettered childhood and childhood under pandemic constraints.


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,501


1,515


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,515


1,700


----------



## MrSki (Sep 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,700




At least Wales & NI are now releasing their data.


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,700



1,776


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 23, 2020)

Does this include private schools?


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Does this include private schools?



I think so. If it's made public at least.


----------



## Thora (Sep 23, 2020)

I've just heard that a stomach bug is sweeping my 6 year old's year and several children have been sent home this week


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 23, 2020)

Back to school today. Incredibly impressed with our new acting Head, shame she's only temporary. Gave me a risk assessment that was thorough and sensible, excusing me from the riskiest duties where numbers may be high and spaces enclosed. She also made no bones about the irresponsibility of the member of staff who put me into self-isolation. That member of staff, who I thought I was very forgiving to by text over the weekend, spent the day ignoring me - apparently she's pissed off a lot of people so she's ignoring them too.

Less than 50% pupil attendance (tbf we average about 60% anyway) and the carers of one of our kids is positive.


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,776



1,847


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 23, 2020)

Jesus
That actual cases or suspected?


----------



## chilango (Sep 24, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Jesus
> That actual cases or suspected?



Schools with actual reported cases afaics.


----------



## Maltin (Sep 24, 2020)

What is the general approach when there are identified cases? In the school here, there has been one case and so the classes that they were in have been sent home but doesn’t seem like other measures, like closing to do more cleaning, was done. A friend has pulled his daughter, who wasn’t in the same classes, out of the school over them not taking more measures. They say he’s overreacting but it’s up to him if he doesn’t feel it’s safe and it’s surprising that he says that they weren’t doing extra cleaning. Surely they would do that even if just overnight.


----------



## LDC (Sep 24, 2020)

Maltin said:


> What is the general approach when there are identified cases? In the school here, there has been one case and so the classes that they were in have been sent home but doesn’t seem like other measures, like closing to do more cleaning, was done. A friend has pulled his daughter, who wasn’t in the same classes, out of the school over them not taking more measures. They say he’s overreacting but it’s up to him if he doesn’t feel it’s safe and it’s surprising that he says that they weren’t doing extra cleaning. Surely they would do that even if just overnight.



Seems very odd and stupid not to do a deep clean of the rooms overnight after a positive test, even if it's only for psychological reassurance for people.


----------



## Thora (Sep 24, 2020)

Some schools now aren’t even closing whole classes, just sending home the children sitting closest based on the seating plan and ignoring any mixing at break times 

I guess the issue with deep cleaning, is who is going to do it? Schools don’t have much of a cleaning budget.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 24, 2020)

Thora said:


> Some schools now aren’t even closing whole classes, just sending home the children sitting closest based on the seating plan and ignoring any mixing at break times
> 
> I guess the issue with deep cleaning, is who is going to do it? Schools don’t have much of a cleaning budget.



I don't know if they've now given access to the promised Autumn fund, but...









						Covid-19 forcing schools in England 'to juggle pupil and financial safety'
					

Exclusive: headteachers talk of sidelining projects and making do with a fraction of what is required




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Why are English schools being left to pay for Covid measures out of threadbare budgets? | Paul Whiteman
					

The government is well behind where it needs to be in terms of its thinking, planning and delivery, says NAHT leader Paul Whiteman




					www.theguardian.com
				












						England's state schools suffering biggest fall in funding since 1980s, says IFS
					

Report shows schools in the most deprived areas worst affected by government’s austerity policy




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 24, 2020)

Thora said:


> I guess the issue with deep cleaning, is who is going to do it? Schools don’t have much of a cleaning budget.



Most have more than mine.

Being a PRU, even though we are under the LEA, our cleaning budget isn't. Instead, senior management have asked for volunteers to take on extra cleaning duties. Several TAs have taken this on with the promise of extra pay (from the LEA funnily enough). They've been doing this since July. None have been paid a penny so far.


----------



## chilango (Sep 24, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,847


1,923


----------



## Mattym (Sep 24, 2020)

Maltin said:


> What is the general approach when there are identified cases? In the school here, there has been one case and so the classes that they were in have been sent home but doesn’t seem like other measures, like closing to do more cleaning, was done. A friend has pulled his daughter, who wasn’t in the same classes, out of the school over them not taking more measures. They say he’s overreacting but it’s up to him if he doesn’t feel it’s safe and it’s surprising that he says that they weren’t doing extra cleaning. Surely they would do that even if just overnight.



It depends on the school & the circumstances. In our school, 2 pupils have tested positive. 1 is in a bubble which has had to partly move around school as they are at Key stage 4 so doing GCSEs and have mixed with each other but not with other bubbles, so the whole bubble has had to isolate. The other  case, the pupil's group are KS3 so are together for every lesson and haven't mixed with other classes or bubbles, so just the class has isolated.
ETA- staff of said pupils have been closely questioned as to their interaction with said pupils to determine whether they need to isolate.
'Deep cleaned/  (hate that phrase) & fogged every day & affected rooms also left empty for 2 weeks as no other groups use the rooms.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 24, 2020)

1942 at close of play.


----------



## maomao (Sep 25, 2020)

My daughter's school has just closed all three reception classes due to 'excessive staff absences despite no confirmed cases of covid' making it sound all like lazy teachers fault. At the bottom of the letter it tells you they were actually sent home as they had symptoms. 

Oh well, hope year one stays open though I'm guessing they'll have a few weeks off at some point.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 25, 2020)

My kid goes to a 1000 odd pupil primary school in hackney, one of the worst and earliest affected areas... it seems to me that it must have already been around the school? (There are no tests at all available here if you dont have a car, and not many people do, so its not like anyone could check though)


----------



## elbows (Sep 25, 2020)

From the weekly PHE surveillance report: https://assets.publishing.service.g...COVID19_Surveillance_Report_week_39_FINAL.pdf


----------



## Sue (Sep 25, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> My kid goes to a 1000 odd pupil primary school in hackney, one of the worst and earliest affected areas... it seems to me that it must have already been around the school? (There are no tests at all available here if you dont have a car, and not many people do, so its not like anyone could check though)


That's an enormous primary school. I'd no idea there were ones that big.


----------



## chilango (Sep 26, 2020)

chilango said:


> 1,923


1,972


----------



## MrSki (Sep 26, 2020)

2023


----------



## zahir (Sep 26, 2020)

Thread on children and covid.


----------



## zahir (Sep 27, 2020)

Also


----------



## zahir (Sep 27, 2020)




----------



## elbows (Sep 28, 2020)




----------



## baldrick (Sep 28, 2020)

There seems to be a shift in terms of advice from PHE towards schools recently - from year groups/bubbles being told to self-isolate at the start of the month, towards identifying close contacts of children in schools to keep a more limited pool of children home.


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2020)

Yeah, my daughter's year/bubble has been sent home today after someone tested positive, but the school says most of them will be back in once they've identified close contacts.


----------



## elbows (Sep 28, 2020)

baldrick said:


> There seems to be a shift in terms of advice from PHE towards schools recently - from year groups/bubbles being told to self-isolate at the start of the month, towards identifying close contacts of children in schools to keep a more limited pool of children home.



Is it even PHE giving that advice?

I think there were stories in September about how there was a new DfE hotline for schools to report outbreaks and get advice, potentially bypassing local PHE teams. Partly because PHE isnt setup to deal with the number of requests they were getting, but it creates a new opportunity for political compromises to be made in a way that does not place public health at the centre of decisions.


----------



## Thora (Sep 28, 2020)

Mid September it changed from PHE to DfE.
In primary schools I don’t know how they can talk about close contacts - they’re all close contacts. My 10 year old is sitting 3 to a desk in class


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 28, 2020)

sending year groups home was never going to work in secondary schools, one teacher testing positive could easily take out a whole school.


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2020)

This is the email I had today re: the procedure - I'm guessing this will be standard, looks like a cut & paste job


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2020)

Further to this, the infected kid sits next to her in history.


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2020)

MrSki said:


> 2023




2,075


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 28, 2020)

6.5% ?


----------



## MrSki (Sep 29, 2020)

Well it seems to have a hold in Liverpool.


----------



## andysays (Sep 29, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Well it seems to have a hold in Liverpool.



I'm still confused by this sort of thing.

AFAIK, advice remains that only those showing symptoms should be tested. So while it's good that these were, don't understand why


----------



## MrSki (Sep 29, 2020)

andysays said:


> I'm still confused by this sort of thing.
> 
> AFAIK, advice remains that only those showing symptoms should be tested. So while it's good that these were, don't understand why


As it says 'The School carried out its own testing'


----------



## Edie (Sep 30, 2020)

Of the first four weeks of school:
Week one- two hours provision, each year group in per day. Apparently the teachers needed time to prepare and to educate the kids about how to follow a one way system.
Week two- four days in school wahey then sent home due to close contact with covid kid on Friday
Week three- son off for 3 days waiting for covid test cos he had a cold but school thought it was covid cos he couldn’t smell
Week four- _entire_ year 11 sent home for whole week as two cases and not enough teachers anyway.

So in four weeks he’s had six days in school. Absolute fucking shit show. Schools at home provision still useless. I looked at it today and it’s basically two Hegarty maths modules and a video to watch in English. For a gcse year.

The school needs to step up. No need to send asymptomatic kids home from a bubble, just isolate them in a room and teach them there separately. Stop acting like a fucking food bank and teach the kids instead. If the teachers are off, double up the classes, do not send home an entire year. And if you absolutely _have_ to send an entire exam year home then teach via zoom in real time.


----------



## elbows (Sep 30, 2020)

Increasing class sizes is the last thing this pandemic needs, so no to the doubling idea.


----------



## elbows (Sep 30, 2020)

It does appear that the amount of effort put into sincere home schooling material in this country in this pandemic resembles the amount of effort that went into sticking us in front of the TV at school way too much in the 1980s. Speaking purely of my own 1980s experiences there, which may have contributed to me being the ranty complainer about half-arsed Britain that I am today for all I know.

Parallels likely include the shit amount of funding that was around back then.


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 30, 2020)

elbows said:


> It does appear that the amount of effort put into sincere home schooling material in this country in this pandemic resembles the amount of effort that went into sticking us in front of the TV at school way too much in the 1980s. Speaking purely of my own 1980s experiences there, which may have contributed to me being the ranty complainer about half-arsed Britain that I am today for all I know.
> 
> Parallels likely include the shit amount of funding that was around back then.


Resembles a lot of hospital schooling too, few very basic worksheets and whatever exercises your teacher was going to set you out your textbook if they're able to get hold of your teacher to ask


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 30, 2020)

New NEU website -








						COVID-19 Map for schools
					

Stay up to date with the COVID situation at your school




					www.schoolcovidmap.org.uk


----------



## Edie (Sep 30, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> New NEU website -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## elbows (Sep 30, 2020)

So is that site basically taking the intervention etc watchlist and the infection rates data and then adding the word school all over the place without there actually being any school-specific data involved?

I mean just like things like hospital outbreaks, there is a 2 way relationship between outbreaks in the wider communities those institutions serve and outbreaks in the institutions themselves. So those numbers are not utterly irrelevant to the schools concerned, but neither do they look in any way specific to schools so I'm really not sure about the angle that website takes.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 30, 2020)

elbows said:


> So is that site basically taking the intervention etc watchlist and the infection rates data and then adding the word school all over the place without there actually being any school-specific data involved?
> 
> I mean just like things like hospital outbreaks, there is a 2 way relationship between outbreaks in the wider communities those institutions serve and outbreaks in the institutions themselves. So those numbers are not utterly irrelevant to the schools concerned, but neither do they look in any way specific to schools so I'm really not sure about the angle that website takes.




It says as much really -



> This card shows two local COVID rates. Neither is the rate IN the school - they are the rates in areas AROUND the school - they are a general guide only. Which of these areas is most relevant depends on the school's catchment. The rate may also reflect other local circumstances, for example increases in age groups which aren't of school age, an outbreak in a particular factory. In most of the country rates are less than 20 cases per hundred thousand. But in those and in all other areas it is important that we all work to get case numbers coming down. Even more local information is available here.



It's only updated weekly, too, on Fridays.

This is the email it was sent in, not much to disagree with in it (take your point though) -




> As part of our campaign to keep schools and communities safe, the National Education Union (NEU) is launching a *new website.
> 
> www.schoolcovidmap.org.uk *will feature accurate, up-to-date information about the Covid-19 rate in the areas around your school or college.
> 
> ...


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2020)

Got sent home by the Head, because I'm vulnerable and she's nice and did a risk assessment on me last week where we agreed I'd go home if multiple suspected cases. Two staff feeling (and looking) shit have gone for tests plus one kid in my form who spent registration collapsed with his head on the desk. Asked him if he'd had a late night, he said no, just completely fucked. He came back from Turkey on Tuesday.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Got sent home by the Head, because I'm vulnerable and she's nice and did a risk assessment on me last week where we agreed I'd go home if multiple suspected cases. Two staff feeling (and looking) shit have gone for tests plus one kid in my form who spent registration collapsed with his head on the desk. Asked him if he'd had a late night, he said no, just completely fucked. *He came back from Turkey on Tuesday.*



That'll be the same Turkey added to the quarantine list today and roundly condemned for deliberately under reporting cases.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 2, 2020)

Not aware of any cases in either of my kids' schools yet, but not sure that will last.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 3, 2020)

We had a member of staff diagnosed earlier this week and another one sent home to self-isolate.  Almost everyone has colds.

Other than that we're doing really well and I just hope we get to half-term.  I'm finding my older students, in particular, are quite anxious about their exams and our new year 7s are suffering with some anxiety from the whole experience (as are staff) but I think we are in the best possible place given all of this.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 3, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> He came back from Turkey on Tuesday.


This is where we are fucked, other countries strict border precautions, us, send 'em back to school no checks.


----------



## nagapie (Oct 3, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> We had a member of staff diagnosed earlier this week and another one sent home to self-isolate.  Almost everyone has colds.
> 
> Other than that we're doing really well and I just hope we get to half-term.  I'm finding my older students, in particular, are quite anxious about their exams and our new year 7s are suffering with some anxiety from the whole experience (as are staff) but I think we are in the best possible place given all of this.


According to the latest Independent Sage report, although we're increasing we're nowhere near what it was like at peak. So think we'll make it to half term.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 3, 2020)

nagapie said:


> According to the latest Independent Safe report, although we're increasing we're nowhere near what it was like at peak. So think we'll make it to half term.



I think we will too - we're still on Tier 1 - but I know some other local schools have already moved to Tier 2.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 3, 2020)

I fear there's many more tears to come.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 3, 2020)

So far, we’ve had no positive tests from staff or students.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 3, 2020)

We've got one Yr 8 student who's tested positive and 56 of their close contacts self-isolating. No adults deemed to have come within 2 metres of them, so the 56 are all students who either sat within a 2 metre radius of them during any classes, plus any other kids they mixed with during breaks, which seems like a large enough number that they have taken it seriously (along with it also illustrating how high even just 'close contacts' can get to within a school setting).

My daughter got a negative result back on Weds eve after developing a cough, which went along with general cold symptoms and a bad sore throat etc, which there seems to be a fair bit of about - but no positive cases in her school yet.

Another local secondary has just had one staff member and one student test positive, too - think it's a total of six (known) schools with cases here now - one primary, four secondaries (out of a total of ten) and one sixth form college, but no actual school outbreaks/clusters, so far.


----------



## nagapie (Oct 3, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> So far, we’ve had no positive tests from staff or students.


Us too. But this may be due to paucity of testing.


----------



## baldrick (Oct 3, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> So far, we’ve had no positive tests from staff or students.


That's really good. We've had 4 staff, 21 students test positive. But we did start back earlier than most. Fortunately we have an earlier HT too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2020)

elbows said:


> So is that site basically taking the intervention etc watchlist and the infection rates data and then adding the word school all over the place without there actually being any school-specific data involved?



There's also a university version.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 5, 2020)

First confirmed case in my kids'high school. Two kids in my middle boy's drama group (of five, including him) have been told to self isolate.


----------



## Edie (Oct 5, 2020)

weepiper said:


> First confirmed case in my kids'high school. Two kids in my middle boy's drama group (of five, including him) have been told to self isolate.


It’s really noticeable how much worse it is in Leeds. My sons go to two different high schools, but in both they have been having several cases a week right from the get go. My youngest sons year has had 22 cases in the last 4 weeks. I sent an email last week saying the school need to step up and organise proper teaching whilst the kids are at home. Putting a few videos to watch and a worksheet in a folder is not good enough. The private schools are getting zoom lessons, and entire school days mapped out for them. State schools are an absolute fucking mess.


----------



## killer b (Oct 5, 2020)

Edie said:


> It’s really noticeable how much worse it is in Leeds. My sons go to two different high schools, but in both they have been having several cases a week right from the get go. My youngest sons year has had 22 cases in the last 4 weeks. I sent an email last week saying the school need to step up and organise proper teaching whilst the kids are at home. Putting a few videos to watch and a worksheet in a folder is not good enough. The private schools are getting zoom lessons, and entire school days mapped out for them. State schools are an absolute fucking mess.


I think it varies wildly from school to school tbf - Martha is off this week 'cause some kid in one of her classes tested positive, and the online teaching provision is pretty good - they're streaming most of her classes and she seems to be able to get on with it easily enough. She's at a pretty average comp.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 5, 2020)

My impression is that state schools are managing extraordinarily well in unprecedented circumstances, it's a huge and complex task. How on earth could you compare with private schools?


----------



## Edie (Oct 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> I think it varies wildly from school to school tbf - Martha is off this week 'cause some kid in one of her classes tested positive, and the online teaching provision is pretty good - they're streaming most of her classes and she seems to be able to get on with it easily enough. She's at a pretty average comp.


This is exactly what I mean. Why is it that some schools are providing the above, and others (like Billy’s) fuck all? It’s not okay.

And absolutely will compare to private schools, because why not? This isn’t a resource issue, it’s a leadership issue.


----------



## killer b (Oct 5, 2020)

Some schools are badly run, but to imagine it isn't also a resource issue is ridiculous tbh.


----------



## Edie (Oct 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> Some schools are badly run, but to imagine it isn't also a resource issue is ridiculous tbh.


You think your girls school is better resourced than my boys?


----------



## killer b (Oct 5, 2020)

Edie said:


> You think your girls school is better resourced than my boys?


I've no idea tbh, but there's a lot of factors that could impact on how well a school can cope with this kind of stuff - how tech savvy the teaching and support staff are, how old and well maintained the IT infrastructure in the school is, etc - which can differ dramatically between average comps. Sometimes even the most heroic leadership can't turn a poorly funded crumbling high school into some whizzy hi-tech education delivery system.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 5, 2020)

Edie said:


> This is exactly what I mean. Why is it that some schools are providing the above, and others (like Billy’s) fuck all? It’s not okay.
> 
> And absolutely will compare to private schools, because why not? This isn’t a resource issue, it’s a leadership issue.



You're not comparing like with like is why not.


----------



## Southlondon (Oct 5, 2020)

Edie said:


> This is exactly what I mean. Why is it that some schools are providing the above, and others (like Billy’s) fuck all? It’s not okay.
> 
> And absolutely will compare to private schools, because why not? This isn’t a resource issue, it’s a leadership issue.


How naive are you? According to a study at UCL in 2018, On average the spend per pupil in a private UK school compared to a state one is possibly the highest in the world at a ratio of 3:1
Quote-
“UK private primaries charge, on average, £12,234 per pupil, compared with £4,800 of funding in state schools, according to data compiled by Professor Green.

In secondaries, that figure rises to £14,466 versus £6,200, and £15,333 versus £5,000 in sixth form.

As a result, Professor Green said the resources ratio between British private schools and state schools is about 3 to 1 – which he suspects is the largest in the world.”
Of course it’s a resource issue . Like private medicine if we could afford it over the NHS


----------



## weepiper (Oct 5, 2020)

The kid who has tested positive is in two classes with my son  feels like it's literally circling us now


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 5, 2020)

Edie said:


> You think your girls school is better resourced than my boys?



Money (and ALL the insistence) taken up in ensuring schools are 'safe' to _fully open_, with additional budgets for that being false (no actual growth in budgets to provide them/budgets swallowed up in the meantime), schools in areas with greater covid rates resulting in a greater loss of teachers well enough to teach, too, available space in individual schools (social distancing), extra cleaning, staff spending way more time on keeping children separated, staggered breaks etc etc. It's not schools at fault and certainly not schools working in deprived areas, in comparison to private schools (I mean that was never, ever the case). It's schools left to their own devices, as they have been for years.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 6, 2020)

My daughter's school has now had a confirmed case. Not in her 'bubble' but every teacher who taught in that bubble is now off for two weeks. The odd but is that those teachers would have also taught other bubbles, but somehow this doesn't count. 
My biggest worry is that whilst they a doing a pretty decent job in the school, as soon as the kids leave the gates it's business as usual. Huge groups huddled together making their way home (I'm often out going in the opposite direction at kicking out time, and apart from a few isolated student, nobody is paying any attention to social distancing at all.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 6, 2020)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> My daughter's school has now had a confirmed case. Not in her 'bubble' but every teacher who taught in that bubble is now off for two weeks. The odd but is that those teachers would have also taught other bubbles, but somehow this doesn't count.
> My biggest worry is that whilst they a doing a pretty decent job in the school, as soon as the kids leave the gates it's business as usual. Huge groups huddled together making their way home (I'm often out going in the opposite direction at kicking out time, and apart from a few isolated student, nobody is paying any attention to social distancing at all.


Ok.  At our school teachers wouldn’t be off for that.  And in most cases only a handful of kids (desk partners) would be sent home.  Basically if it isn’t “under 1 metre for more than 15 minutes, indoors” our school considers you to be safe.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 8, 2020)

Two cases in my daughter's school now (not thought to be linked) - 90 kids self-isolating.
At both hers and mine, there are no adults SI because none of them were judged to have come within 2 meters of the pos. kids.

Do you not mean under 2 meters, spanglechick (I'm really hoping for a typo there)?! 
That's just totally making it up as they go, if not  - at under 1 meter it's 1 minute and I'd be straight on to your union if that's what they're following!

Either way, it looks like your girl's school is actually being pretty on it ATOMIC SUPLEX (as much as I understand why it still looks like a huge failure of logic).


----------



## Edie (Oct 8, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Ok.  At our school teachers wouldn’t be off for that.  And in most cases only a handful of kids (desk partners) would be sent home.  Basically if it isn’t “under 1 metre for more than 15 minutes, indoors” our school considers you to be safe.


Thank god for common sense.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Thank god for common sense.



My daughter's form tutor spent all of lockdown shielding because her husband is in the vulnerable category.
She has come back to work (because she had to) and wears a mask for the whole day (obvs not one that has been medically fitted though). She taught one of the kids who tested positive and sent him to medical a few days ago because he was coughing - and they sent him back to the lesson. 
My girl is in year 11 and I'm as worried as I know you must be about what's going to happen to them - and that's way more frustrating for you when your boy's school have been pretty much shut down no sooner than they reopened - but it's pretty shit working in schools, atm, tbh.
I hope it's obvious Eids that I appreciate you have already been working under massively stressful conditions for months already, too, but there's really not much that looks or feels like 'common sense' going on in schools right now, afaic.


----------



## Edie (Oct 8, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> My daughter's form tutor spent all of lockdown shielding because her husband is in the vulnerable category.
> She has come back to work (because she had to) and wears a mask for the whole day (obvs not one that has been medically fitted though). She taught one of the kids who tested positive and sent him to medical a few days ago because he was coughing - and they sent him back to the lesson.
> My girl is in year 11 and I'm as worried as I know you must be about what's going to happen to them - and that's way more frustrating for you when your boy's school have been pretty much shut down no sooner than they reopened - but it's pretty shit working in schools, atm, tbh.
> I hope it's obvious Eids that I appreciate you have already been working under massively stressful conditions for months already, too, but there's really not much that looks or feels like 'common sense' going on in schools right now, afaic.


But mate the alternative is sending them all home. Repeatedly. I think some degree of rules (within 2m for 15mins plus) needs to be in place.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> But mate the alternative is sending them all home. Repeatedly. I think some degree of rules (within 2m for 15mins plus) needs to be in place.



Well yes, I agree, tbf - but the post you quoted was re spangles school changing the rule to under ONE meter for 15, which is just... y'know moving goalposts somewhat, at the cost of people's safety and any peace of mind, really.
I just think it's really important that you at least see your employers are following the rules as far as they reasonably can - it's makes the chaos feel so much worse otherwise!


----------



## Edie (Oct 8, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> Well yes, I agree, tbf - but the post you quoted was re spangles school changing the rule to under ONE meter for 15, which is just... y'know moving goalposts somewhat, at the cost of people's safety and any peace of mind, really.
> I just think it's really important that you at least see your employers are following the rules as far as they reasonably can - it's makes the chaos feel so much worse otherwise!


Agreed.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 8, 2020)

sheothebudworths said:


> Two cases in my daughter's school now (not thought to be linked) - 90 kids self-isolating.
> At both hers and mine, there are no adults SI because none of them were judged to have come within 2 meters of the pos. kids.
> 
> Do you not mean under 2 meters, spanglechick (I'm really hoping for a typo there)?!
> ...


Hmm.  No.  All the dry run cases we’ve been doing, has asked about 1 metre for 15 mins.  I’ll have another look at the policy.


----------



## Thora (Oct 8, 2020)

Test & trace just asked me about _any_ contact under 1m, skin to skin contact or face to face conversation, or 15 minutes within 2m.


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 8, 2020)

Guidance for full opening: schools
					






					www.gov.uk
				






> The advice service (or PHE local health protection team if escalated) will work with schools to guide them through the actions they need to take. Based on their advice, schools must send home those people who have been in close contact with the person who has tested positive, advising them to self-isolate for 14 days since they were last in close contact with that person when they were infectious. Close contact means:
> 
> 
> direct close contacts - face to face contact with an infected individual for any length of time, within 1 metre, including being coughed on, a face to face conversation, or unprotected physical contact (skin-to-skin)
> ...


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 8, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> Guidance for full opening: schools
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok.  That squares up.  Less than a metre from a kid would be rare.  I don’t like them that much and they often smell of Lynx/BO/both, I’m not going to be doing that for as long as a minute and not at all by choice.    Between 1-2 metres is much more common - but then the time goes up to 15 mins.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 9, 2020)

Over 50 kids self isolating at my kids' school now, mostly as close contacts of the confirmed positive case, but others because they have a family member that's tested positive.


----------



## Sue (Oct 9, 2020)

I was talking to my sister last night. She's astounded there've been no cases/self-isolation at my nephew's school -- it's a large primary in centralish Glasgow, near the university and one of the big hospitals (where a lot of the parents work). She's only heard of one confirmed case -- a father who's a nurse was confirmed in the summer holidays. They're now on their October holidays, not that there's much to do...


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 9, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Ok.  At our school teachers wouldn’t be off for that.  And in most cases only a handful of kids (desk partners) would be sent home.  Basically if it isn’t “under 1 metre for more than 15 minutes, indoors” our school considers you to be safe.



yes - us too (within 1 to 2 metres for more than 15 minutes) with an infected individual.  When a colleague received a diagnosis only one other member of staff was sent home who met that definition.


----------



## Edie (Oct 9, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Over 50 kids self isolating at my kids' school now, mostly as close contacts of the confirmed positive case, but others because they have a family member that's tested positive.


Sounds like it’s ramping up in Edinburgh now


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 9, 2020)

We had door to door testing yesterday, that was a bit weird. My eldest said, there loads of people standing outside our house, so I looked and there were 3 people, 2 in Council high viz and a soldier. They left a test, I did it and B, but the kids declined. R had one just a fortnight ago and wasn't keen to re-do it. The soldier came back to pick it up an hour later. Really strange times.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 9, 2020)

Edie said:


> Sounds like it’s ramping up in Edinburgh now


Student city.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 9, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> We had door to door testing yesterday, that was a bit weird. My eldest said, there loads of people standing outside our house, so I looked and there were 3 people, 2 in Council high viz and a soldier. They left a test, I did it and B, but the kids declined. R had one just a fortnight ago and wasn't keen to re-do it. The soldier came back to pick it up an hour later. Really strange times.


Shitting hell. That seems like quite a jump from where we've been.


----------



## Edie (Oct 9, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> We had door to door testing yesterday, that was a bit weird. My eldest said, there loads of people standing outside our house, so I looked and there were 3 people, 2 in Council high viz and a soldier. They left a test, I did it and B, but the kids declined. R had one just a fortnight ago and wasn't keen to re-do it. The soldier came back to pick it up an hour later. Really strange times.


Woah that sounds strange


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 9, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> yes - us too (within 1 to 2 metres for more than 15 minutes) with an infected individual.  When a colleague received a diagnosis only one other member of staff was sent home who met that definition.


Are you Lambeth?


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 9, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Are you Lambeth?



Southwark now.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 9, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Southwark now.


Sounds like the same policy.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 9, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> yes - us too (*within 1 to 2 metres for more than 15 minutes*) with an infected individual.  When a colleague received a diagnosis only one other member of staff was sent home who met that definition.



No.



spanglechick said:


> *Sounds like the same policy.*



You said - 





> Basically if it isn’t *“under 1 metre for more than 15 minutes, indoors”* our school considers you to be safe.



It's not the same policy. The policy is under 2 metres, not under 1.
I think it's important to get it right, so that you can object to it being _wrong._


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 9, 2020)

What I did get spanglechick was you saying, a few short weeks ago, that you'd made your peace with going back to work, despite being vulnerable.
I know it's all very confusing, at best - even with no vulnerablities, I have definitely found being back at work has been surreal, in the _normalness_ of it, iykwim - but let's get it right, it remains wrong that anyone is put at risk, too.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 14, 2020)

Could easily go under the general pissed off thread but, you know, schools.

Today I had a raging argument with one of my managers. I have a risk assessment that forbids me doing certain things and today I was asked to do one of those things. Kinda complicated and boring to go into detail so I won't. But, crucially, in the midst of this argument I was unfairly accused and insulted by my manager, heavily implying (wrongly, obviously) that I hadn't done my job over lockdown. As this could not be further from the truth I stood up to the manager (who isn't used to this) and it developed into a full scale row, in front of others, which was my manager's choice.

Somehow I managed to stay until the end of the day. On coming home I thought 'fuck this' and will be seeing my GP to get signed off until half term with stress. As suggested by others here and by people at work. My goodwill has run out.

I am now prepared to escalate this into a full blown union issue. I am not prepared to be insulted as I was. On a wider picture, this involves other staff too who I also will be standing up for. I am not prepared to have my physical and mental health toyed with in this way. Or my risk assessment so blatantly ignored because otherwise what is the point of that assessment.

My school has a weak to non-existent tradition of fighting on union basis. I intend to change that.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 14, 2020)

I've got no numbers, but I am hearing anecdotally of lots of individual positive tests on kids in Pembrokeshire schools...some primary, some secondary. I fear that we are beginning to see SARS-Cov-19's vanguard encroaching into our previously safe and isolated part of Wales. This will be, I think, a game changer.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 14, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Could easily go under the general pissed off thread but, you know, schools.
> 
> Today I had a raging argument with one of my managers. I have a risk assessment that forbids me doing certain things and today I was asked to do one of those things. Kinda complicated and boring to go into detail so I won't. But, crucially, in the midst of this argument I was unfairly accused and insulted by my manager, heavily implying (wrongly, obviously) that I hadn't done my job over lockdown. As this could not be further from the truth I stood up to the manager (who isn't used to this) and it developed into a full scale row, in front of others, which was my manager's choice.
> 
> ...


I am regularly appalled by how often that terrible scourge of schooling - namely, bullying - seems to be so embedded into the entire management hierarchy. It's utterly fucked up - how are you supposed to show kids not to bully each other when the very foundation of your employment is a bullying management culture? Argh.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 16, 2020)

Not aware of any cases at my school (400 pupil primary).  They’ve sent 20 or 30 kids home with suspected symptoms since reopening for key workers etc., but none tested positive. There are a large number of cases in surrounding areas, but these include a lot of student halls of residence, so kind of expect that they’re focused in those sort of places.

There seems to be a growing number of parents wearing masks at drop-off, and I’m also seeing more outdoor mask use generally, I think people are getting more cautious.


----------



## Edie (Oct 16, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Not aware of any cases at my school (400 pupil primary).  They’ve sent 20 or 30 kids home with suspected symptoms since reopening for key workers etc., but none tested positive. There are a large number of cases in surrounding areas, but these include a lot of student halls of residence, so kind of expect that they’re focused in those sort of places.
> 
> There seems to be a growing number of parents wearing masks at drop-off, and I’m also seeing more outdoor mask use generally, I think people are getting more cautious.


Where are you? I got this today:


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 16, 2020)

Edie said:


> Where are you? I got this today:



Bristol. The city has had quite low figures, but quite a few cases now in some areas, particularly parts where students live. 

The school is fairly close to university and hospitals so there are quite a few pupils with parents that work at those places (as well as those in the local catchment) which could be a pathway for infections.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 16, 2020)

Yeah we had this today (Edinburgh). The bleak juxtaposition did make me laugh


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 16, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Yeah we had this today (Edinburgh). The bleak juxtaposition did make me laugh
> 
> View attachment 234646



8.32? What's that all about?


----------



## Edie (Oct 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> 8.32? What's that all about?


They’re precise in Scotland.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> 8.32? What's that all about?


Registration class is 8.32 til 8.45. I have no idea why 8.32.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 16, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Registration class is 8.32 til 8.45. I have no idea why 8.32.



I’m going to take a guess that the bell goes at 8.30, and students are expected in the right room no more than two mins later.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 16, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> I’m going to take a guess that the bell goes at 8.30, and students are expected in the right room no more than two mins later.


Nope. Bell goes at 8.27


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 16, 2020)

weepiper said:


> Nope. Bell goes at 8.27


Ok.  That’s just quite funny.  Do you think it’s down to someone at some point irrationally taking against round numbers?


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 16, 2020)

We don’t have bells at all this year, because years 7-9 are on a different schedule to years 10 and above.

Holding two sets of timings for the day in my head, _and then_ having to remember which time is the operative one on any given day, is still pretty tricky.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 16, 2020)

We have staggered breaks to keep bubbles apart (playground divided into about five areas), which means there are kids are out in the playground for a much larger amount of the day. If I have an outdoor maintenance task where they can’t be around it’s become really difficult to fit this around breaks, and I’ve ended up working much later in the evening to get certain things done.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 16, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> We have staggered breaks to keep bubbles apart (playground divided into about five areas), which means there are kids are out in the playground for a much larger amount of the day. If I have an outdoor maintenance task where they can’t be around it’s become really difficult to fit this around breaks, and I’ve ended up working much later in the evening to get certain things done.


We live right next to a primary school and the jannie has taken to using a big leaf blower at 7.30am for I presume the same reason.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 17, 2020)

weepiper said:


> We live right next to a primary school and the jannie has taken to using a big leaf blower at 7.30am for I presume the same reason.



I’m not allowed to use mine until 8 because people grumbled, always used to be fine at 7:30 as there was usually traffic noise by then, now everyone is working at home so no traffic and even people complaining during the middle of the day because they’re sat home working with windows open. People suggesting I get one of those rechargeable electric ones but battery lasts about 20 minutes. We have about thirty mature deciduous trees on site, no chance. Plus most classroom doors and windows are open so can‘t get to close to those areas during the day either.


----------



## nagapie (Oct 17, 2020)

One confirmed case this week at my school, a peripetatic music teacher. All 72 kids she works with sent home to isolate. 
One confirmed case at my eldest son's school, not sure how many sent home. 
I think they should be thinking about making holidays more movable. For example why not have called half term in England last week, next term could be longer.


----------



## nagapie (Oct 17, 2020)

Our students are penned up in community (like houses) areas. Never before has school looked so much like prison and that's saying something.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 17, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> We don’t have bells at all this year, because years 7-9 are on a different schedule to years 10 and above.
> 
> Holding two sets of timings for the day in my head, _and then_ having to remember which time is the operative one on any given day, is still pretty tricky.



I've printed out a mini timetable and laminated it and have it on a lanyard around my neck.  My t/t on one side, the whole school t/t on the other.  There's no way I'd remember otherwise.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 19, 2020)

We’ve now had a confirmed case in Year 6, and the year bubble is being sent home, imagine that will be a chaotic process with parents being called in to pick up their kids, having to leave work and so on. We have pupils from across the area so a considerable amount of work to make sure they are all home safely.

I’m actually isolating at home today, my son who is in reception class was coughing loads on Saturday so we took him for a test yesterday morning. This came back inconclusive so we had to repeat it this morning, but he again struggled and was difficult so may not have got a decent sample this time either. He didn’t cough at all yesterday and seems absolutely fine today. I also had a test while I was there as I’ve been feeling shit all day yesterday (and today) but not typical corona symptoms (just headache, muggy head, sore eyes, aching limbs, crushing feeling on chest, temperature normal), at least if I get the all-clear I can go back to work later tomorrow. I only do about three hours on Mon/Tues so will probably be able to make that up.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 20, 2020)

This did not in fact help me not be alarmed

Four cases now. Still noone in close enough contact to any of mine for us to be contact traced, which is weird given the first two shared classes with both my boys.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 22, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> What have OH said?



Well, better late than never. Spoke to them today, though this ended up being instigated by massive row with the ALENCO (see previous posts from within last week...somewhere). And they were brilliant. I'm still going to have to go back to work after half term despite now being classed as 'high risk' but it's good to have support from them and have it in black and white that I can't be bullied (haha, yeah that went well didn't it ALENCO) into unnecessary duties and they have to take my situation seriously. Which to be fair my temporary acting manager, she has been. It's just one idiot I've been dealing with. And now I have a piece of official paper on my side from Occ Health.

But I do have to go back because my job is impossible to do from home. Even though 'high risk' says work from home.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Well, better late than never. Spoke to them today, though this ended up being instigated by massive row with the ALENCO (see previous posts from within last week...somewhere). And they were brilliant. I'm still going to have to go back to work after half term despite now being classed as 'high risk' but it's good to have support from them and have it in black and white that I can't be bullied (haha, yeah that went well didn't it ALENCO) into unnecessary duties and they have to take my situation seriously. Which to be fair my temporary acting manager, she has been. It's just one idiot I've been dealing with. And now I have a piece of official paper on my side from Occ Health.
> 
> But I do have to go back because my job is impossible to do from home. Even though 'high risk' says work from home.



OK. Wow. I'll keep it short because it's more personal than this discussion is meant for, but.

I've just been granted permission to work from home until Christmas. High risk means high risk and my absolute wonderful temporary manager has said, on receiving the report from Occ Health, that she cannot guarantee my safety because of the environment. The report actually says "should be of no greater risk at work than if staying at home". And that's impossible. So we've agreed a few tasks and I've been granted space to find training for myself and others on certain key aspects of work I feel are undervalued or overlooked.

This is the first proper decent manager I have ever had in my life.

If anyone knows of any really good ADHD courses, do drop me a line.


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2020)

Scum.



> *Access to government-provided laptops in England has been cut at some schools, head teachers have said.*
> The government pledged to offer the devices to disadvantaged pupils who are at home because of coronavirus and do not own a computer.
> However, on Friday some schools were told the number of laptops they were promised had been cut by 80% after the government allocation process changed.
> The government says the devices will be sent to the areas of greatest need.
> One head teacher told the BBC he was "flattened" when he learned his school's allocation had been cut from 61 laptops to 13.











						Covid: Laptop allocation for deprived pupils cut at some schools
					

One head teacher says he was "flattened" when the 61 laptops he was expecting was cut to 13.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 24, 2020)

At my school we need way more than the gov't pledged (and my school is pretty well-to-do compared to other local schools).  We have had to launch our own appeal locally to get laptops and even then, we are very, very stretched.  I hate this government.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 24, 2020)

elbows said:


> Scum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More evidence for the "we don't care how shit it makes us look" mindset. I just cannot quite believe that there are people in government prepared to stand up and justify this stuff, particularly in context - we've had the school dinners thing, this, and now the accusation of "structural discrimination" towards mental health. How can anyone look at that litany of disdain and not think that there is something very, very wrong about where we've got to?


----------



## Indeliblelink (Oct 31, 2020)

Those of you working in schools might like to know Morrisons are offering a 10% discount for teachers and support staff until Christmas








						Morrisons launches discount for teachers and school staff
					

The discount is due to last until Christmas




					www.gazettelive.co.uk
				












						Teacher discount: Morrisons U-turn on college staff
					

The supermarket chain Morrisons announced a shopping discount for teachers last week – without including staff in FE colleges. It has since said that they can take also take advantage of the discount




					www.tes.com


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## Dogsauce (Nov 4, 2020)

Schools not safe for Ofsted inspectors. Fuck the rest of the staff.


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## Mation (Nov 4, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Schools not safe for Ofsted inspectors. Fuck the rest of the staff.
> 
> View attachment 237392


I think it's reasonable for Ofsted to decide not to make an unsafe situation even less safe and harder to manage. Plus, who needs an inspection right now on top of all the other stressors?


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## miss direct (Nov 4, 2020)

I start volunteering in a primary school next week. I've been told I have to wear a mask, which is more than fine - but the students don't have to. I'll be tutoring two students and am curious/worried about the potential risk. I realise that for teachers this has been a risk youve been living with for a while, but I barely go near anyone in my everyday life so am rather concerned. If I get ill, I cant work, and don't get any pay at all. 

Why dont they just make masks compulsory in schools? I dont get it...


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 5, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Schools not safe for Ofsted inspectors. Fuck the rest of the staff.
> 
> View attachment 237392


God. Having an ofsted visit in the middle of covid wold be just... damn.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 5, 2020)

miss direct said:


> I start volunteering in a primary school next week. I've been told I have to wear a mask, which is more than fine - but the students don't have to. I'll be tutoring two students and am curious/worried about the potential risk. I realise that for teachers this has been a risk youve been living with for a while, but I barely go near anyone in my everyday life so am rather concerned. If I get ill, I cant work, and don't get any pay at all.
> 
> Why dont they just make masks compulsory in schools? I dont get it...



Ventilation is really important; if you can do your tutoring in a room with an open window, it may be cold but it’ll be much safer than without a window open.


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## miss direct (Nov 5, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> Ventilation is really important; if you can do your tutoring in a room with an open window, it may be cold but it’ll be much safer than without a window open.


Great - I will wear warm clothes and make a point of mentioning this. Bet I'll be popular with the other volunteers!


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## Thora (Nov 5, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Great - I will wear warm clothes and make a point of mentioning this. Bet I'll be popular with the other volunteers!


Both my children's schools have all doors and windows open - they sent a letter saying children should wear thermal base layers etc.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

The absolute fucking shambles of my kids school continues. One year being sent home at a time due to lack of staff but no online teaching offered, and the work set is just PowerPoints in a folder that no one even bothers to check if they’ve done.

Meanwhile get sent home the report. What an absolute waste of time. He’s Year 11 (GCSE year). For 3 out of 9 subjects his Target Grade is below his Actual Grade. For Computer Science his target is 4 and his actual grade is 9. Then the bollocks letter that accompanies it says ‘Targets are aspirational and have been reviewed at the start of this term’.

So they’re aspiring for my lad to underachieve. The fucking dicks.

Then the other thing that’s massively pissing me off is in the “Attitude to Learning” score (note, this used to be called Effort back in the day) my lad consistently gets the following ‘drop down box’ entry:
“_Expectations met most of the time_”.

What the FUCK does that even mean? I’ll tell you what it means in plain English. It means he’s lazy. But instead of saying that, and saying ‘Hey kid, you need to pull your socks up son cos you can achieve more’ the kid gets the impression that it doesn’t matter according to school, and Mum is just nagging at home.

Low aspirations plus a school system that ignores lazy boys plus covid plus an emphasis on food parcels not education. Recipe for underachievement.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> The absolute fucking shambles of my kids school continues. One year being sent home at a time due to lack of staff but no online teaching offered, and the work set is just PowerPoints in a folder that no one even bothers to check if they’ve done.
> 
> Meanwhile get sent home the report. What an absolute waste of time. He’s Year 11 (GCSE year). For 3 out of 9 subjects his Target Grade is below his Actual Grade. For Computer Science his target is 4 and his actual grade is 9. Then the bollocks letter that accompanies it says ‘Targets are aspirational and have been reviewed at the start of this term’.
> 
> ...



If they had enough staff to do online teaching they'd not be sending kids home for lack of staff.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> If they had enough staff to do online teaching they'd not be sending kids home for lack of staff.


Bollocks. One teacher can teach more than one class online. It is:
1. Primarily poor management
2. A targets culture set by Labour, with added bollocks like ‘flight paths’ and ‘attitudes to learning’ and drop down boxes rather than sentences in plain English
3. Only caring about ‘value added’ by the school not my actual kid, cos he’s already getting higher than he ‘should’ and above a 4 they don’t give a fuck cos the school will look good already
4. Laziness by some individuals 
5. and added Covid food poverty caused by the Tories which means it’s more like a food bank than a school.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Bollocks. One teacher can teach more than one class online. It is:
> 1. Primarily poor management
> 2. A targets culture set by Labour, with added bollocks like ‘flight paths’ and ‘attitudes to learning’ and drop down boxes rather than sentences in plain English
> 3. Only caring about ‘value added’ by the school not my actual kid, cos he’s already getting higher than he ‘should’ and above a 4 they don’t give a fuck cos the school will look good already
> ...


How did labour set these targets when they haven't been in government for a decade? I'm led to believe the Tories haven't been entirely hands off with education over that period


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 6, 2020)

Yeah. Teachers are shit, fuck them. They do it on purpose you know


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 6, 2020)

League tables for schools was the Tories in 1992 by the way,  continued by all the governments since


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Yeah. Teachers are shit, fuck them. They do it on purpose you know


And they get long holidays, they're barely at work at all you know


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And they get long holidays, they're barely at work at all you know


I'm not working right now!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I'm not working right now!


I rest my case


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## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

Some of New Labours disgusting failures were related to target culture but yet, they didnt start that fire, they were just happy to expand its reach.

Parents have every right to get upset with the failings and priorities of educational institutions, and as usual the terrible pandemic circumstances are mostly magnifying problems that were always there.

There is no point blaming teachers for the pandemic-related problems. That would be like blaming nurses for non-Covid NHS care being cancelled in the pandemic.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> How did labour set these targets when they haven't been in government for a decade? I'm led to believe the Tories haven't been entirely hands off with education over that period


Read up about New Labour.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Bollocks. One teacher can teach more than one class online. It is:
> 1. Primarily poor management
> 2. A targets culture set by Labour, with added bollocks like ‘flight paths’ and ‘attitudes to learning’ and drop down boxes rather than sentences in plain English
> 3. Only caring about ‘value added’ by the school not my actual kid, cos he’s already getting higher than he ‘should’ and above a 4 they don’t give a fuck cos the school will look good already
> ...


Absolute cack. 

Teaching online effectively is really, really challenging. Universities are struggling with it and they have a head start on schools, more resources and students that are paying to attend. 
As others have pointed out a targets culture has been pushed - against the advice and wishes of the teachers you are attacking.- for decades. 
Teachers are probably using drop down boxes for comments because that's all the time they've been given for assessment.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Bollocks. One teacher can teach more than one class online.



How many online classes can no teachers teach? How many lessons can they plan, bearing in mind they've most likely had to rip up all their existing lesson plans and make new ones for covid timetable and covid rules?


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## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Teachers are probably using drop down boxes for comments because that's all the time they've been given for assessment.



In the days before drop down boxes there were other techniques that amounted to much the same result anyway. The endless quest for euphemisms to soften the message and make it safe, the mission to find something positive to sugar coat aspects of whats being said etc. A decrease in imaginitive touches and originality as ploughing through the mountain of paperwork reached the moment of maximum tedium.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Yeah. Teachers are shit, fuck them. They do it on purpose you know


Are you lazy? If no, then the above doesn’t apply to you.

My sons Maths teacher, his GCSE Maths teacher, set work for him for 6 WEEKS without checking whether he’d done any of it. Without contacting me to tell me he’d done nothing. This is whilst she’s “working from home”. When I actually chased her and asked if he was in fact submitting work, she says yes he is. When I challenged her and said ‘please send it back to me so I can see it’ it turns out he had done hardly nothing and she hadn’t even been bothered to _check_.

That my friend is laziness.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Absolute cack.
> 
> Teaching online effectively is really, really challenging. Universities are struggling with it and they have a head start on schools, more resources and students that are paying to attend.
> As others have pointed out a targets culture has been pushed - against the advice and wishes of the teachers you are attacking.- for decades.
> Teachers are probably using drop down boxes for comments because that's all the time they've been given for assessment.


I don’t gaf. It’s not good enough.

Think about my son. Write a _single sentence_ in grammatical English that reflects his achievement and effort. And don’t ever give me a drop down response again.

It doesn’t even make sense ffs. How can in Computer Science his Target be 4, his most recent mock Grade be 9, and his Attitude be “meets expectations most of the time”???? 

If he’s exceeding your fucking target by 5 grades then he’s not meeting your expectations ‘most of the time’ you fucking chopstick, he’s exceeding them all the time.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Read up on
> 
> Read up about New Labour.


You do post some awful bollocks trying to relate the problems of today to the government of 1997-2010. It's frankly pitiful to see. It's pitiful to see no word of the great decline in funding for schools over the past decade, for example. Education spending fall from 2010 to now was worst since 1970s – IFS

No mention of the Tory decision to drive schools to become academies and remove them from local authority control

No mention of the upheaval caused by incessant changes in government policy. As the headmaster in 'if...' points out, education in Britain is a nubile Cinderella, scantily clad and much interfered with. 

I don't much care for the labour party. But blaming them for the predicament of education more than a decade after they left office, after everything done under Cameron, under may, under Johnson - it's just ridiculous.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

elbows said:


> In the days before drop down boxes there were other techniques that amounted to much the same result anyway. The endless quest for euphemisms to soften the message and make it safe, the mission to find something positive to sugar coat aspects of whats being said etc. A decrease in imaginitive touches and originality as ploughing through the mountain of paperwork reached the moment of maximum tedium.


Exactly this. Call a spade a spade for fuck sake, and let’s actually push our kids (especially our lads) to do better.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 6, 2020)

elbows said:


> In the days before drop down boxes there were other techniques that amounted to much the same result anyway. The endless quest for euphemisms to soften the message and make it safe, the mission to find something positive to sugar coat aspects of whats being said etc. A decrease in imaginitive touches and originality as ploughing through the mountain of paperwork reached the moment of maximum tedium.



Imagine the fuss if a kid actually got sent home with 'lazy' on his report.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Meanwhile get sent home the report. What an absolute waste of time. He’s Year 11 (GCSE year). For 3 out of 9 subjects his Target Grade is below his Actual Grade. For Computer Science his target is 4 and his actual grade is 9. Then the bollocks letter that accompanies it says ‘Targets are aspirational and have been reviewed at the start of this term’.
> 
> So they’re aspiring for my lad to underachieve. The fucking dicks.



Targets are set in year 7 based on a combination of SATS and CATS scores (usually).  When schools say that they are aspirational, it will be because the school has added one or two grades to the grade by which the school will be judged nationally.  Most schools add a grade or two (hence the "aspirational" bit).  It's not a perfect system and some children end up with target grades that are too high, others with target grades that are too low in at least some of their subjects.

It is weird that they say they have reviewed the targets and not put them up if he's already 5 grades above - it would make no difference to them either way really if he's already beating the baseline target.

Good news for his school though if he's making that much progress.  It's unusual for targets to be_ that_ wrong.  Great that your boy is doing so well despite the challenges.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You do post some awful bollocks trying to relate the problems of today to the government of 1997-2010. It's frankly pitiful to see. It's pitiful to see no word of the great decline in funding for schools over the past decade, for example. Education spending fall from 2010 to now was worst since 1970s – IFS
> 
> No mention of the Tory decision to drive schools to become academies and remove them from local authority control
> 
> ...


Do you have kids at State school? Do you work at a State school? Did you even attend a State school? If not then fuck off.


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## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

Why wish for them to write anything or tick any boxes if you think his mock result on its own should dictate the rest of their evaluation? I wouldnt expect all of those measures to be in perfect harmony.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Imagine the fuss if a kid actually got sent home with 'lazy' on his report.


Yes and imagine if that kid actually thought _maybe I could do better._


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## redsquirrel (Nov 6, 2020)

So Edie  your argument is that teachers, who on average were were already working excessive hours pre-COVID, should give up even more of their free-time to give extra feedback to your son - and everyone else's kid.

There are major problems with education system at all levels but virtually none of it is the fault of workers.

EDIT: Oh and they should do this while also moving their lessons online.


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## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Do you have kids at State school? Do you work at a State school? Did you even attend a State school? If not then fuck off.



If we are going to exclude people from the discussion based on experience and merit then I'd kick you out for a start, thinking Johnson & Co were going to do a fine job of handling the pandemic and that we should trust their approach, that worked out well didnt it!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Do you have kids at State school? Do you work at a State school? Did you even attend a State school? If not then fuck off.


feeble

on this basis no one in any Tory cabinet since 2010 should be making education policy. Yet they are. And you ignore their considerable contribution to the state of education in this country today to blame a former administration which has been out of office more than ten years


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Targets are set in year 7 based on a combination of SATS and CATS scores (usually).  When schools say that they are aspirational, it will be because the school has added one or two grades to the grade by which the school will be judged nationally.  Most schools add a grade or two (hence the "aspirational" bit).  It's not a perfect system and some children end up with target grades that are too high, others with target grades that are too low in at least some of their subjects.
> 
> It is weird that they say they have reviewed the targets and not put them up if he's already 5 grades above - it would make no difference to them either way really if he's already beating the baseline target.
> 
> Good news for his school though if he's making that much progress.  It's unusual for targets to be_ that_ wrong.  Great that your boy is doing so well despite the challenges.


Then I’m sorry but this system is absolutely ridiculous. It’s all about the school and fuck all about the kids.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Then I’m sorry but this system is absolutely ridiculous. It’s all about the school and fuck all about the kids.



Most teachers are not fans of the way that target grades are calculated either - not least because whether or not we receive pay rises rests on us also meeting targets based on such a poorly functioning system. 

Most teachers (I know) also really really care about the kids.  I'm sorry that your experience has been so rubbish.  Actually I would say all the teachers I know - especially these days.


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## existentialist (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Are you lazy? If no, then the above doesn’t apply to you.
> 
> My sons Maths teacher, his GCSE Maths teacher, set work for him for 6 WEEKS without checking whether he’d done any of it. Without contacting me to tell me he’d done nothing. This is whilst she’s “working from home”. When I actually chased her and asked if he was in fact submitting work, she says yes he is. When I challenged her and said ‘please send it back to me so I can see it’ it turns out he had done hardly nothing and she hadn’t even been bothered to _check_.
> 
> That my friend is laziness.


I used to see a lot of "lazy" kids in my schools counsellor role. The effort that they usually put into their laziness was quite remarkable.


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## andysays (Nov 6, 2020)

Edie said:


> Are you lazy? If no, then the above doesn’t apply to you.
> 
> My sons Maths teacher, his GCSE Maths teacher, set work for him for 6 WEEKS without checking whether he’d done any of it. Without contacting me to tell me he’d done nothing. This is whilst she’s “working from home”. When I actually chased her and asked if he was in fact submitting work, she says yes he is. When I challenged her and said ‘please send it back to me so I can see it’ it turns out he had done hardly nothing and she hadn’t even been bothered to _check_.
> 
> That my friend is laziness.


So when your kid's teacher supposedly doesn't check they've submitted their homework, you call it laziness.

What do you call it when a parent doesn't check?


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## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

The systems usually are ridiculous. At their worst they are grade machines and it takes all the efforts of staff who care to make them more than that.

Individual personal failings are a part of the picture but one that pales in comparison to the institutional failures, failure to have the right priorities etc.

I lost almost a whole year of education at a state school once, due to a teacher that was having profound mental health problems and the attitudes of that school at the time to protect its staff at all costs. The shit really hit the fan when my dad was what work I had done that year, and the fact I had added answers to questions that didnt exist and the teacher had ticked them.

I dont think I've ever been the same since, I was about 10 at the time and I developed more than a passing curiosity in regards institutional failings and the people that are failed as a result, that has never left me. Rarely does a day go by without further examples to reinforce that view of this stupid, broken, half-arsed country that repeatedly wonders how come we do so badly, with wide eyed naivety every bloody time.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> So Edie  your argument is that teachers, who on average were were already working excessive hours pre-COVID, should give up even more of their free-time to give extra feedback to your son - and everyone else's kid.
> 
> There are major problems with education system at all levels but virtually none of it is the fault of workers.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and they should do this while also moving their lessons online.


Clearly no. There should be a national curriculum but beyond that Teachers should be allowed to teach as they see fit. They should have responsibility for the kids in their class, including letting parents know how their kid is doing once a term, with a single _meaningful_ sentence. The performance of the school should be the Headteachers concern, not the parents. And wider Social care and food parcels should not be the responsibility of school.


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## Edie (Nov 6, 2020)

andysays said:


> So when your kid's teacher supposedly doesn't check they've submitted their homework, you call it laziness.
> 
> What do you call it when a parent doesn't check?


Wakey wakey Andy, it’s not homework.


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## elbows (Nov 6, 2020)

Is this the same young man that previously benefitted from getting a period of something more like 1 to 1 teaching a while back, or a different one? Because that struck me at the time, such a textbook example of what suport is required for some people to avoid the system neglecting them and squandering some of their potential. Especially where the outer label of laziness peels off, revealing the underlying realities on the fronts of motivation, self-esteem, belief, attention, quality time, others taking it and his fate as seriously as they ask him to do. And yet all these well known things are not an inherent part of the system. In a world drowning in best practice jargon, actual best practices came there few.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

FWIW research suggests there is no possible way to instill motivation or enthusiasm in a child, and the best teachers can do is direct what motivation the kids bring with them to productive activities and not actively discourage them. There is no magic button to make a lazy child stop being lazy. 

Nor is there anything in particular wrong with being lazy. Figuring out how to do the minimum amount of work and get away with it is a relatively sophisticated metacognitive activity, and one likely to aid in the development of useful transferrable skills. Part of the distinction between 'bright' and 'gifted' is beavering away constantly at whatever task has been set with consistently good rsesults vs doing something acceptable in a short space of time without really concentrating or trying because the activity doesn't present a challenge.


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## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> FWIW research suggests there is no possible way to instill motivation or enthusiasm in a child, and the best teachers can do is direct what motivation the kids bring with them to productive activities and not actively discourage them. There is no magic button to make a lazy child stop being lazy.
> 
> Nor is there anything in particular wrong with being lazy. Figuring out how to do the minimum amount of work and get away with it is a relatively sophisticated metacognitive activity, and one likely to aid in the development of useful transferrable skills. Part of the distinction between 'bright' and 'gifted' is beavering away constantly at whatever task has been set with consistently good rsesults vs doing something acceptable in a short space of time without really concentrating or trying because the activity doesn't present a challenge.


What an absolute load of rubbish 😂


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## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> What an absolute load of rubbish 😂


Says the woman who doesn't blame the Tory party for a decade of underfunding education


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## Mation (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Are you lazy? If no, then the above doesn’t apply to you.
> 
> My sons Maths teacher, his GCSE Maths teacher, set work for him for 6 WEEKS without checking whether he’d done any of it. Without contacting me to tell me he’d done nothing. This is whilst she’s “working from home”. When I actually chased her and asked if he was in fact submitting work, she says yes he is. When I challenged her and said ‘please send it back to me so I can see it’ it turns out he had done hardly nothing and she hadn’t even been bothered to _check_.
> 
> That my friend is laziness.


You have absolutely no idea of how much teachers have to do. The workload is generally unmanagable, and that's without having to negotiate covid for oneself and family on top of doing that for the learners.

I can see why you're upset by the result of that, but don't blame the teachers. It's a total exercise in futility, because that's not where the problems lie.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> What an absolute load of rubbish 😂



Happy to provide references for all that. Well, not happy because I've got better things to do with my weekend, but much of it is covered in Hattie and Yates' 2014 book 'Visible Learning' and Eric Sotto's 2007 book 'When Teaching Becomes Learning'.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly wondering if the fear of covid is getting completely disproportionate to the actual risk.



It's not. HTH.


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## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Says the woman who doesn't blame the Tory party for the state of schools today


I absolutely do blame the Tory party, I just note that Labour bears some responsibility for the bullshit target and inspection culture. The over involvement of the state in education is the problem on both counts.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I absolutely do blame the Tory party, I just note that Labour bears some responsibility for the bullshit target and inspection culture. The over involvement of the state in education is the problem on both counts.



A supermajority of teachers would agree with you.


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## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Mation said:


> You have absolutely no idea of how much teachers have to do. The workload is generally unmanagable, and that's without having to negotiate covid for oneself and family on top of doing that for the learners.
> 
> I can see why you're upset by the result of that, but don't blame the teachers. It's a total exercise in futility, because that's not where the problems lie.


What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.

How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?

This attitude of no one taking responsibility for shit is half the problem. I appreciate that teachers work within a system, and schools operate within a system, and that _constant_ state interference is the bloody problem (which incidentally private schools don’t have). But also, at the end of the day, that teacher, his school, need to step the fuck up too like schools around them are.


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

So why have a pop at teachers when they're not responsible for the clusterfuck education is rn?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2020)

cba


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

Some parents of students I was responsible for checking up on during lockdown might think I didn't do anything because tbh kids I knew were going to be ok didn't need a lot of looking after. Whereas many took up a lot of my time and energy on top of managing lockdown for my own kids.


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## Mation (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.
> 
> How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?


I don't know. Getting to grips with 5 million new and different safety procedures and reporting procedures, all of which are constantly changing so you can't become familiar with them. Teaching with unfamiliar materials and working out how to do the marking in this context. Working different hours. Working in different teams. Simply having too many things to do that is possible in the amount of time you have. You have to go home at some point.

Everyone is working out how the hell to do this and I'd imagine that even the places that appear to be doing better are probably struggling like mad, too.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Mation said:


> I don't know. Getting to grips with 5 million new and different safety procedures and reporting procedures, all of which are constantly changing so you can't become familiar with them. Teaching with unfamiliar materials and working out how to do the marking in this context. Working different hours. Working in different teams. Simply having too many things to do that is possible in the amount of time you have. You have to go home at some point.
> 
> Everyone is working out how the hell to do this and I'd imagine that even the places that appear to be doing better are probably struggling like mad, too.



And getting a constant stream of shit from parents about it will be crushing for teachers' morale and thus their capacity to usefully deal with the tasks facing them. Enough teachers are quitting year on year as it is, driving even more out the door in what is going to be a miserable year anyway is a good way to ensure that lots of kids get some half arsed, completely impersonal 'online learning' experience, and nothing else, forever.


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## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> FWIW research suggests there is no possible way to instill motivation or enthusiasm in a child, and the best teachers can do is direct what motivation the kids bring with them to productive activities and not actively discourage them. There is no magic button to make a lazy child stop being lazy.
> 
> Nor is there anything in particular wrong with being lazy. Figuring out how to do the minimum amount of work and get away with it is a relatively sophisticated metacognitive activity, and one likely to aid in the development of useful transferrable skills. Part of the distinction between 'bright' and 'gifted' is beavering away constantly at whatever task has been set with consistently good rsesults vs doing something acceptable in a short space of time without really concentrating or trying because the activity doesn't present a challenge.


By the way, the way to instil motivation and enthusiasm for something is to leave teachers the fuck alone and let them use their own interest and excitement in a subject to inspire kids.

Christ talk about lowest common denominator response Frank, that the best we aspire to offer our kids is to ‘not actively discourage them’? _Expectations met some of the time._

This attitude is part of the problem.

Why do you think private school kids do so well, with so much confidence? Is it just the money? Or is it that expectations, _right from the get go_, are high. You are expected to attend on time, expected to pay attention, expected to do your homework, expected to be aspirational, expected to do well, expected to aim high.

Can you imagine a world where a private school predicts a kid lower grades than they are actually achieving?! No. Wouldn’t happen.

Our kids are saddled with underfunding, over inspecting, league table nonsense *combined with* a complete lack of care and no expectations.

So you can take your research that shows it’s impossible to instill motivation or enthusiasm, and you can take your ‘no one cares if your lazy’ attitude and you can stick it up your arse. Cos our kids deserve a shit load better than that.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.
> 
> How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?
> 
> This attitude of no one taking responsibility for shit is half the problem. I appreciate that teachers work within a system, and schools operate within a system, and that _constant_ state interference is the bloody problem (which incidentally private schools don’t have). But also, at the end of the day, that teacher, his school, need to step the fuck up too like schools around them are.



She might well have been struggling to cope like many of us who had to suddenly change the way we work overnight whilst still meeting our young people's needs and management targets. The whole basis of teaching is face to face work and that stopped overnight, it was a huge blow. 

Your boy was offered a space at school wasn't he? What happened?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

Sounds like your kid IS a bit lazy tbh, having done little work during lockdown. So it'd be dishonest to say his attitude was spot on all the time


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> By the way, the way to instil motivation and enthusiasm for something is to leave teachers the fuck alone and let them use their own interest and excitement in a subject to inspire kids.
> 
> Christ talk about lowest common denominator response Frank, that the best we aspire to offer our kids is to ‘not actively discourage them’? _Expectations met some of the time._
> 
> ...



I went to private school </not real urbans> and you are right in that expectation was high. But it wasn’t just high at school, it was high at home too. You are dealing with an entire community that values academia. That has huge levels of resources at home and at school. We went on at least three theatre trips a year, we had our own, brand new text books every year that we didn’t share, we had loads of extra curricular stuff on which we were encouraged to do both by parents and teachers.... we were told all the time that we were the brightest and the cleverest and that we would be the movers and shakers of the world. We were doing practice papers for GCSE in year seven. Parents took active interest because they could, so messages from school were reinforced at home. We weren’t loved any more or less than any other kids, we weren’t actually any cleverer than any other group of kids, but boy does it make it easier when you live in a nice home in a quiet suburb with low crime, aren’t arriving in school cold and hungry and get to have nice holidays and lots of toys.

I also remember friends crying because they ‘only’ got 80% in an end of topic test and not 100%, I remember them vomiting with nerves before their exams, one took a gap year because she didn’t get into Oxford and that wasn’t good enough, I really struggled my first year in uni because I had to really think for myself instead of being coached and spoon fed the exact info I needed. I look at my old school mates now and most of them are arseholes tbh. I think about how little pastoral support was offered and how when I was in sixth form and was suicidal, rather than ask what was wrong, my last ever school report was that I needed to apply myself if I wanted to get the grades I wanted. It was noted my usual enthusiasm and cheery nature had waned. But I needed to buck up was the attitude I got back. It just made me want to die even more. I didn’t get great A level results, not in comparison to school expectations at any rate. I think about how hard it was for the kids not naturally academic, how kids were quietly asked to leave so results wouldn’t be screwed up, how any other form of intelligence was not valued at all.  I am very unconvinced that following the private model is the way we want to progress education.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 7, 2020)

The point of the education system is to reproduce a system of inequality. The idea that there's any education system free from the needs and demands of powerful groups is absurd.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> By the way, the way to instil motivation and enthusiasm for something is to leave teachers the fuck alone and let them use their own interest and excitement in a subject to inspire kids.



Leave them the fuck alone then.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> She might well have been struggling to cope like many of us who had to suddenly change the way we work overnight whilst still meeting our young people's needs and management targets. The whole basis of teaching is face to face work and that stopped overnight, it was a huge blow.
> 
> Your boy was offered a space at school wasn't he? What happened?


Why are you making excuses for her? The majority of his other teachers did a lot better than her. Are we not allowed to hold these people to account? Should we be quiet and just accept shoddy service?

And you know what happened with his space at school. He’s 15 years old, his mates weren’t going, he refused to go. But you know what? You cannot compare a 15yo not doing what’s expected of him to a professional adult teacher. And using that comparison to shut me down (not argue against me, shut me down) is dubious. Or am I missing your point- if so, say it straightforwardly please.



S☼I said:


> Sounds like your kid IS a bit lazy tbh, having done little work during lockdown. So it'd be dishonest to say his attitude was spot on all the time


He really is fucking lazy. Absolute pita. Thinks he knows everything and is gonna do alright. The fact he sometimes does do really well without trying will be his downfall.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> I went to private school </not real urbans> and you are right in that expectation was high. But it wasn’t just high at school, it was high at home too. You are dealing with an entire community that values academia. That has huge levels of resources at home and at school. We went on at least three theatre trips a year, we had our own, brand new text books every year that we didn’t share, we had loads of extra curricular stuff on which we were encouraged to do both by parents and teachers.... we were told all the time that we were the brightest and the cleverest and that we would be the movers and shakers of the world. We were doing practice papers for GCSE in year seven. Parents took active interest because they could, so messages from school were reinforced at home. We weren’t loved any more or less than any other kids, we weren’t actually any cleverer than any other group of kids, but boy does it make it easier when you live in a nice home in a quiet suburb with low crime, aren’t arriving in school cold and hungry and get to have nice holidays and lots of toys.
> 
> I also remember friends crying because they ‘only’ got 80% in an end of topic test and not 100%, I remember them vomiting with nerves before their exams, one took a gap year because she didn’t get into Oxford and that wasn’t good enough, I really struggled my first year in uni because I had to really think for myself instead of being coached and spoon fed the exact info I needed. I look at my old school mates now and most of them are arseholes tbh. I think about how little pastoral support was offered and how when I was in sixth form and was suicidal, rather than ask what was wrong, my last ever school report was that I needed to apply myself if I wanted to get the grades I wanted. It was noted my usual enthusiasm and cheery nature had waned. But I needed to buck up was the attitude I got back. It just made me want to die even more. I didn’t get great A level results, not in comparison to school expectations at any rate. I think about how hard it was for the kids not naturally academic, how kids were quietly asked to leave so results wouldn’t be screwed up, how any other form of intelligence was not valued at all.  I am very unconvinced that following the private model is the way we want to progress education.


This is interesting. I have to go out but I’ll have a think on this.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> The point of the education system is to reproduce a system of inequality. The idea that there's any education system free from the needs and demands of powerful groups is absurd.


I don’t think that’s most peoples or most teachers idea of what education is? That sounds a little out there tbh like you’ve spent too long in a bubble.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I don’t think that’s most peoples or most teachers idea of what education is? That sounds a little out there tbh like you’ve spent too long in a bubble.


Nah, it's called the "hidden curriculum" and it's neither a new nor a radical idea, whether you've heard of it or not.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I don’t think that’s most peoples or most teachers idea of what education is? That sounds a little out there tbh like you’ve spent too long in a bubble.



RC is talking from a structural perspective, not about what individual teachers might think. Kids in ‘shit’ areas don’t do as well as kids in ‘nice areas’ - you cannot possibly think that is coincidental? Look at what I wrote, what I said about being the movers and shakers was an actual quote from my biology teacher. She followed it up with how other children at other schools would be the ones working for us. Apart from making me feel a bit sick when I think of it now, what do you think that gives children being told that? How do you think it shapes their view of how the world is meant to be structured?


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Why are you making excuses for her? The majority of his other teachers did a lot better than her. Are we not allowed to hold these people to account? Should we be quiet and just accept shoddy service?
> 
> And you know what happened with his space at school. He’s 15 years old, his mates weren’t going, he refused to go. But you know what? You cannot compare a 15yo not doing what’s expected of him to a professional adult teacher. And using that comparison to shut me down (not argue against me, shut me down) is dubious. Or am I missing your point- if so, say it straightforwardly please.
> 
> He really is fucking lazy. Absolute pita. Thinks he knows everything and is gonna do alright. The fact he sometimes does do really well without trying will be his downfall.



If you're not happy with this particular teacher take it up with her and the school but here on this thread you come over as scapegoating teachers that work in the state education system. 

Well, no, I don't recall exactly what happened to your son's place at school. I remember he did very well for a week (?) with almost 1-1 teaching with, I think , the deputy head? And then I don't know what happened. I remember it was difficult to get him to go but I have no idea what was done about that, whether the school worked with you, if they shared your concerns, if the difference in how he worked when getting 1-1 was acknowledged and informed any support given on returning in September etc. You're focused on this one teacher, but there's a whole school there with a senior mgmt team and pastoral support and a form teacher, head of year.   

My point - is not to shut you down. Why would I do that? Although you've tried to shut others down by talking about what kind of school they went to. I don't share your politics but I'm not so bothered by you having a different point of view that I can't hear it.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I don’t think that’s most peoples or most teachers idea of what education is? That sounds a little out there tbh like you’ve spent too long in a bubble.



What bubble is that Edie?


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Nah, it's called the "hidden curriculum" and it's neither a new nor a radical idea, whether you've heard of it or not.


I’ve not heard of that exact phrase. I just don’t think it is the point of education. I think that’s far too cynical. It completely ignores the value of education in and of itself, or that it broadens the mind, or opens doors. It reduces it to something that’s ‘done’ to us as passive victims.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> If you're not happy with this particular teacher take it up with her and the school but here on this thread you come over as scapegoating teachers that work in the state education system.
> 
> Well, no, I don't recall exactly what happened to your son's place at school. I remember he did very well for a week (?) with almost 1-1 teaching with, I think , the deputy head? And then I don't know what happened. I remember it was difficult to get him to go but I have no idea what was done about that, whether the school worked with you, if they shared your concerns, if the difference in how he worked when getting 1-1 was acknowledged and informed any support given on returning in September etc. You're focused on this one teacher, but there's a whole school there with a senior mgmt team and pastoral support and a form teacher, head of year.
> 
> My point - is not to shut you down. Why would I do that? Although you've tried to shut others down by talking about what kind of school they went to. I don't share your politics but I'm not so bothered by you having a different point of view that I can't hear it.


I’m not focusing on this one teacher. It was one point in a list of problems I pointed out.

What is interesting is that you and others have made it the focus. Why is that?


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Then the other thing that’s massively pissing me off is in the “Attitude to Learning” score (note, this used to be called Effort back in the day) my lad consistently gets the following ‘drop down box’ entry:
> “_Expectations met most of the time_”.
> 
> What the FUCK does that even mean?



This bit interests me. You use the word 'consistently'. So all teachers are using a drop down box then? That would be the standardisation of the report form. Done by the SLT. Not the individual teacher. So your ranting against individual teachers for this bit, which seems to have seriously pissed you off, is unjust.

You also say this used to be called 'Effort'. Something that was most commonly, if not always, scored 1-5 or A-E. Did 1-5 or A-E give you more meaning? I can't see how it would.

There are definitely problems with the ways teachers ARE TOLD they have to communicate with parents and carers. In our school we are told the first line of a report must be positive. It's not something I'm in whole-hearted agreement with. But, as somebody else said, can you imagine the backlash if teachers started writing 'lazy' 'feckless' etc on reports? And it was ever thus. Just with different language. My reports used to say 'rests on his laurels'. I remember having to look laurels up when I was 13. I thought it might be a polite word for arse.


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’ve not heard of that exact phrase. I just don’t think it is the point of education. I think that’s far too cynical. It completely ignores the value of education in and of itself, or that it broadens the mind, or opens doors. It reduces it to something that’s ‘done’ to us as passive victims.


No, it's not the point of education, certainly as far as teachers go, but it's another obstacle to negotiate while teaching and learning is taking place.

Since forever the people at the top insist kids get enough education to work for them, but not so much they start questioning why and how they work for them. My primary school in the late 19th century was opposed by local Conservatives and landowners etc on the grounds that educating the lower orders gives them ideas above their station. This attitude persists in the way governments insist education is "done".


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Why are you making excuses for her? The majority of his other teachers did a lot better than her. Are we not allowed to hold these people to account? Should we be quiet and just accept shoddy service?



Service. Jesus christ. You moan about managerialism and corporatisation in schools then you talk in terms of customer service, of education as a product being delivered, which is exactly the mindset behind the increasing managerialism and corporatisation in schools.


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## planetgeli (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Service. Jesus christ. You moan about managerialism and corporatisation in schools then you talk in terms of customer service, of education as a product being delivered, which is exactly the mindset behind the increasing managerialism and corporatisation in schools.



The pupil and parent as _customer._

Thing is, I'd bet a lot of money Edie didn't realise what she was writing there (and may not see anything wrong with writing it). Which shows just how insidious this stuff is.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> This attitude of no one taking responsibility for shit is half the problem.



But also, why has nobody else fixed my kid for me?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Since forever the people at the top insist kids get enough education to work for them, but not so much they start questioning why and how they work for them. My primary school in the late 19th century was opposed by local Conservatives and landowners etc on the grounds that educating the lower orders gives them ideas above their station. This attitude persists in the way governments insist education is "done".



You went to primary school in the late 19th century? 

Was Sas in the year above?


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## wtfftw (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You went to primary school in the late 19th century?
> 
> Was Sas in the year above?


It's why his photos are in black and white.


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You went to primary school in the late 19th century?
> 
> Was Sas in the year above?


Nah, he was one of the town elders opposed to the _opening of my primary school_


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.
> 
> How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?
> 
> This attitude of no one taking responsibility for shit is half the problem. I appreciate that teachers work within a system, and schools operate within a system, and that _constant_ state interference is the bloody problem (which incidentally private schools don’t have). But also, at the end of the day, that teacher, his school, need to step the fuck up too like schools around them are.



To be fair Edie - that doesn't sound right.  We wouldn't have gotten away with that in my school.  I was extremely busy during lockdown with online teaching (whilst simultaneously researching and learning how to teach online effectively).  During that time, however, on my daily walk I met a colleague from a different school.  She is actually a teacher that I mentored through her training year.  She told me that she had nothing to do - they'd sent the kids home with textbooks and put some work online for them.  That was it.  Absolutely NOT the case in my school.  In fact, quite a few of my students really flourished under those circumstances (the more gifted students and the more introverted students) and are doing really really well now.  I'm very proud of them.

So I can understand your frustration.  In my school we send regular questionnaires out to parents seeking their opinions on such things and that is fed back to staff and acted upon (but we do have incredibly high standards).  I think you should feedback to the school if you feel that strongly about it.  I don't know what the set up is in your son's school.  It may well be that that particular teacher's circumstances were such that she couldn't do more - but in that case the school should have found a solution and stepped up to resolve it.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> To be fair Edie - that doesn't sound right.  We wouldn't have gotten away with that in my school.  I was extremely busy during lockdown with online teaching (whilst simultaneously researching and learning how to teach online effectively).  During that time, however, on my daily walk I met a colleague from a different school.  She is actually a teacher that I mentored through her training year.  She told me that she had nothing to do - they'd sent the kids home with textbooks and put some work online for them.  That was it.  Absolutely NOT the case in my school.  In fact, quite a few of my students really flourished under those circumstances (the more gifted students and the more introverted students) and are doing really really well now.  I'm very proud of them.
> 
> So I can understand your frustration.  In my school we send regular questionnaires out to parents seeking their opinions on such things and that is fed back to staff and acted upon (but we do have incredibly high standards).  I think you should feedback to the school if you feel that strongly about it.  I don't know what the set up is in your son's school.  It may well be that that particular teacher's circumstances were such that she couldn't do more - but in that case the school should have found a solution and stepped up to resolve it.


Thank god a rational response (from a teacher unsurprisingly). Oh, and much respect for the hard work and commitment put in by yourself, and the majority of your colleagues. I generally have the highest respect for good teachers.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> But also, why has nobody else fixed my kid for me?


Don’t be a dick. Can tell you don’t have kids or teach. They’re not all perfect it’ll surprise you to hear, maybe you’ve never met a teenager before 

But on a serious note, again, trying to locate the problem with my son. But again, I remind you, that the issue I’m taking against is a system that predicts a state school lad below his actual grades then tells me they’re aspirational. And the poor leadership that also allows some teachers and some schools to fall way behind the game with covid. You wanna know how many lessons my kids school has delivered online since March? Zero. In total.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Don’t be a dick. Can tell you don’t have kids or teach. They’re not all perfect it’ll surprise you to hear, maybe you’ve never met a teenager before
> 
> But on a serious note, again, trying to locate the problem with my son. But again, I remind you, that the issue I’m taking against is a system that predicts a state school lad below his actual grades then tells me they’re aspirational. And the poor leadership that also allows some teachers and some schools to fall way behind the game with covid. You wanna know how many lessons my kids school has delivered online since March? Zero. In total.



I tried constructive input. Constructive input which came from many years' experience working in education as well as the academic work I've done as part of my teacher training. You told me to shove it up my arse. 

As for your kid he seems to have exceeded expectations, and entirely under his own steam as his school is staffed by people who do nothing all day. Sound like cause for celebration to me. Instead you call him lazy, and a pain in the arse. Maybe that's a factor affecting his attitude, who knows. 

You demand accountability, well that is precisely what the culture of testing, quantification and competition between students, between schools and between teachers purports to deliver. You want schools to provide you with a service, well that is the model teaching has been heading towards ever since the national curriculum was first invented. Seems to me you should be pretty happy with the state of things. 

I've met teenagers yes. They can be lazy, petulant, obnoxious, obstinate and many other things besides. But I've always found it easy to forgive them for all that _because they are children. _You do not have that excuse.


----------



## nyxx (Nov 7, 2020)

It was a good day when I worked out how to put certain posters on “ignore” on here 😊


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> I went to private school </not real urbans> and you are right in that expectation was high. But it wasn’t just high at school, it was high at home too. You are dealing with an entire community that values academia. That has huge levels of resources at home and at school. We went on at least three theatre trips a year, we had our own, brand new text books every year that we didn’t share, we had loads of extra curricular stuff on which we were encouraged to do both by parents and teachers.... we were told all the time that we were the brightest and the cleverest and that we would be the movers and shakers of the world. We were doing practice papers for GCSE in year seven. Parents took active interest because they could, so messages from school were reinforced at home. We weren’t loved any more or less than any other kids, we weren’t actually any cleverer than any other group of kids, but boy does it make it easier when you live in a nice home in a quiet suburb with low crime, aren’t arriving in school cold and hungry and get to have nice holidays and lots of toys.
> 
> I also remember friends crying because they ‘only’ got 80% in an end of topic test and not 100%, I remember them vomiting with nerves before their exams, one took a gap year because she didn’t get into Oxford and that wasn’t good enough, I really struggled my first year in uni because I had to really think for myself instead of being coached and spoon fed the exact info I needed. I look at my old school mates now and most of them are arseholes tbh. I think about how little pastoral support was offered and how when I was in sixth form and was suicidal, rather than ask what was wrong, my last ever school report was that I needed to apply myself if I wanted to get the grades I wanted. It was noted my usual enthusiasm and cheery nature had waned. But I needed to buck up was the attitude I got back. It just made me want to die even more. I didn’t get great A level results, not in comparison to school expectations at any rate. I think about how hard it was for the kids not naturally academic, how kids were quietly asked to leave so results wouldn’t be screwed up, how any other form of intelligence was not valued at all.  I am very unconvinced that following the private model is the way we want to progress education.


I hear what you say about the pressure and mental health issues and you are correct. That is not okay. There must be a middle ground between what my lad has and that.

But I fundamentally disagree that we should not aim for the private model.

Education is vital for social mobility. But as it currently stands it’s not the whole picture. Even if you get to university and get a first, a middle class person with a worse degree than you will do better in the job market. Middle and upper middle class kids do better cos from an early age they are taught how to get things they want from Institutions. They are literally _taught_ how to speak to authority figures to ask for and get what they want. By their parents and- listen up- by their schools.

By the time kids start school, m/c kids have heard millions more words than w/c kids. Their vocabularies are significantly greater. They are then bought up with Cultural Capital- skills, knowledge, and how to behave. What to wear. How to speak. They get taken to museums, to the theatre (I have still in my life only been twice and my kids not at all ever- yet if you go on the sofa thread people there do this routinely), shown how to speak to doctors and lawyers (I _have_ taught my kids this). But at base it is being taught you belong, you matter, that you are entitled to have other people _act_ on your behalf, in _your_ interest.

State schools need to step UP. Our expectations of them need to RISE, not fall. I hear what you say about the pressure of exam results, but it’s just not enough to shrug and just go ‘well state schools are doing the best they can’. Sure, go ahead and close private schools. But the State schools will still fail our kids unless they are doing a whole lot more than what they are.

What’s going on in my kids school is not acceptable. It is part of what will make the covid class divide even bigger. My lad will be okay cos he has me and I am educated and (to some extent) I will challenge them (and have via email). But don’t expect me to think the current state of play is okay. I reject any system that predicts my son lower than he is achieving.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I tried constructive input. Constructive input which came from many years' experience working in education as well as the academic work I've done as part of my teacher training. You told me to shove it up my arse.
> 
> As for your kid he seems to have exceeded expectations, and entirely under his own steam as his school is staffed by people who do nothing all day. Sound like cause for celebration to me. Instead you call him lazy, and a pain in the arse. Maybe that's a factor affecting his attitude, who knows.
> 
> ...


Rather than focusing on my kids laziness (which I have acknowledged) maybe try and focus on the substantive points I’m making about the failure of State education in the time of covid. Cos yes, my lad is able and lazy. But those failures are still gonna exist for all the other kids in his school that aren’t lazy. Try and think laterally to consider them.


----------



## Mation (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Thank god a rational response (from a teacher unsurprisingly). Oh, and much respect for the hard work and commitment put in by yourself, and the majority of your colleagues. I generally have the highest respect for good teachers.


I think most of us who've been responding are teachers. Good ones, too!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Rather than focusing on my kids laziness (which I have acknowledged) maybe try and focus on the substantive points I’m making about the failure of State education in the time of covid. Cos yes, my lad is able and lazy. But those failures are still gonna exist for all the other kids in his school that aren’t lazy. Try and think laterally to consider them.



You've got nothing to say about how schools are to instantly become better at everything though, you just stamp your foot and demand it despite having no clue what 'better' would even look like. I would be delighted to focus on substantive points, were any forthcoming, but they're not.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You've got nothing to say about how schools are to instantly become better at everything though, you just stamp your foot and demand it despite having no clue what 'better' would even look like. I would be delighted to focus on substantive points, were any forthcoming, but they're not.


Your just not reading my posts.


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## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Mation said:


> I think most of us who've been responding are teachers. Good ones, too!


I didn’t know you were a teacher! I thought you were a researcher. Apologies.


----------



## Mation (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I didn’t know you were a teacher! I thought you were a researcher. Apologies.


Overnight career change a few years ago. No apology needed - no reason you should have known!


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> This bit interests me. You use the word 'consistently'. So all teachers are using a drop down box then? That would be the standardisation of the report form. Done by the SLT. Not the individual teacher. So your ranting against individual teachers for this bit, which seems to have seriously pissed you off, is unjust.
> 
> You also say this used to be called 'Effort'. Something that was most commonly, if not always, scored 1-5 or A-E. Did 1-5 or A-E give you more meaning? I can't see how it would.
> 
> There are definitely problems with the ways teachers ARE TOLD they have to communicate with parents and carers. In our school we are told the first line of a report must be positive. It's not something I'm in whole-hearted agreement with. But, as somebody else said, can you imagine the backlash if teachers started writing 'lazy' 'feckless' etc on reports? And it was ever thus. Just with different language. My reports used to say 'rests on his laurels'. I remember having to look laurels up when I was 13. I thought it might be a polite word for arse.


This made me laugh. And it’s a good point about the Effort scores v comments. Maybe they’re not so different. He does sometimes get the box that says ‘You have a positive attitude towards work’. And rarely the bad one: ‘You must engage with learning’. But mostly it’s ‘Expectations met some of the time’.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Mation said:


> Overnight career change a few years ago. No apology needed - no reason you should have known!


Good for you.


----------



## Mation (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Good for you. How have you found Covid?


Absolute nightmare. We can't do what we trained to do, are used to doing, or want to do. We're working everything out back to front as we go along, with everything in constant flux.

Doing my best, as is everyone else, but this isn't what we or the learners signed up for and it is difficult not to feel like I'm failing people (as in, they're not getting the chances they should have).

Every aspect of what we do is different, so the best I can hope for, given that things aren't going to return to normal for a long time, is that we settle into a way of working for long enough that we can get better at it. It is a process, though, and how smoothly that process goes depends on an overwhelmingly huge range of factors.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Your just not reading my posts.



You're half right. I'm not reading them any more.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> I hear what you say about the pressure and mental health issues and you are correct. That is not okay. There must be a middle ground between what my lad has and that.
> 
> But I fundamentally disagree that we should not aim for the private model.
> 
> ...



I’m not saying it is okay, it’s quite clearly not okay that some kids have loads of opportunities and resources and others don’t. I am fully aware of what middle class kids get afforded and what working class kids don’t get... 

But a model which churns kids to pass exams at a high standard isn’t the way forward to me. Take away the cultural capital etc and that is all that private school does. I don’t want schools that tell kids they are better than other kids. Some of my old school mates are teachers. Do you not think that the messages sent to them in their schooling influence how they teach? Because it absolutely will, even if it’s unconsciously. I want to see structural changes made that removes that inequality. 

And there are lots of great state schools anyway, just because your kids isn’t, you can’t say the entire system is rubbish. Also didn’t your eldest go to private school for a brief period?


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> I’m not saying it is okay, it’s quite clearly not okay that some kids have loads of opportunities and resources and others don’t. I am fully aware of what middle class kids get afforded and what working class kids don’t get...
> 
> But a model which churns kids to pass exams at a high standard isn’t the way forward to me. Take away the cultural capital etc and that is all that private school does. I don’t want schools that tell kids they are better than other kids. Some of my old school mates are teachers. Do you not think that the messages sent to them in their schooling influence how they teach? Because it absolutely will, even if it’s unconsciously. I want to see structural changes made that removes that inequality.
> 
> And there are lots of great state schools anyway, just because your kids isn’t, you can’t say the entire system is rubbish. Also didn’t your eldest go to private school for a brief period?


You haven’t understood what I said. I’ll say is more briefly. I said I acknowledge there’s an argument that private schools need to close (am undecided personally, swing one way and another), but State schools need to massively step up their game. With both exam results and teaching, but also crucially with cultural capital. 

(And yes my eldest went for 18 months but his Dad leaving meant that was impossible- that plus truth be told his behaviour wasn’t exactly exemplary enough 😬).


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> State schools need to massively step up their game. With both exam results and teaching, but also crucially with cultural capital.


How?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> You haven’t understood what I said. I’ll say is more briefly. I said I acknowledge there’s an argument that private schools need to close (am undecided personally, swing one way and another), but State schools need to massively step up their game. With both exam results and teaching, but also crucially with cultural capital.
> 
> (And yes my eldest went for 18 months but his Dad leaving meant that was impossible- that plus truth be told his behaviour wasn’t exactly exemplary enough 😬).



It’s rather hard for schools to give kids all the opportunities when they aren’t funded properly and may be based in communities that can’t afford it either. And I wouldn’t want something that doesn’t offer opportunities to all; it can feel very top down and quite patronising too. ‘We must show the poor ignorant povs some high culture because they have none of their own’ All the trips / books etc I had were paid for as added extras in addition to the fees. Again, the resources already existed within the school community.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> You haven’t understood what I said. I’ll say is more briefly. I said I acknowledge there’s an argument that private schools need to close (am undecided personally, swing one way and another), but State schools need to massively step up their game. With both exam results and teaching, but also crucially with cultural capital.
> 
> (And yes my eldest went for 18 months but his Dad leaving meant that was impossible- that plus truth be told his behaviour wasn’t exactly exemplary enough 😬).



Exam results cannot simply 'step up' because exam results are norm-referenced.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

S☼I said:


> How?



Not with reference to educational research, that much is clear.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> It’s rather hard for schools to give kids all the opportunities when they aren’t funded properly and may be based in communities that can’t afford it either. And I wouldn’t want something that doesn’t offer opportunities to all; it can feel very top down and quite patronising too. ‘We must show the poor ignorant povs some high culture because they have none of their own’ All the trips / books etc I had were paid for as added extras in addition to the fees. Again, the resources already existed within the school community.


So just exclude them instead. Quite literally. Did you know there’s a spike in exclusions before exams?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> So just exclude them instead. Quite literally. Did you know there’s a spike in exclusions before exams?



Yes I did. I also know that SEN kids are illegally excluded at primary level a lot and all sorts. If you think I think that is okay then I have no idea what to say. 

In private schools, you’re told not to take subjects at GCSE that you like because you aren’t likely to get an A*. I have a Latin GCSE because I was told I wasn’t good enough for Art. I am terrible at drawing, but I got the highest grade in the country at A Level Theatre Studies in my Set Design module. I am creative and I enjoyed that, but I have no confidence to give anything artistic a go now. I’m not going to boo hoo or suggest I am terribly hard done by, but I don’t think at such a young age I should have been discouraged like that. I don’t think any kid should.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> Yes I did. I also know that SEN kids are illegally excluded at primary level a lot and all sorts. If you think I think that is okay then I have no idea what to say.
> 
> In private schools, you’re told not to take subjects at GCSE that you like because you aren’t likely to get an A*. I have a Latin GCSE because I was told I wasn’t good enough for Art. I am terrible at drawing, but I got the highest grade in the country at A Level Theatre Studies in my Set Design module. I am creative and I enjoyed that, but I have no confidence to give anything artistic a go now. I’m not going to boo hoo or suggest I am terribly hard done by, but I don’t think at such a young age I should have been discouraged like that. I don’t think any kid should.


Its certainly a massive downside of private education.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Its certainly a massive downside of private education.



It’s a downside of the entire system we have. Do we want education to be about making little people into interested, thoughtful, kind, creative, able to think for themselves adults, or about getting pieces of paper so they can get a slightly better job than someone else and shit on those below them? Do we want only one type of ‘intelligence’ to be valued, or do we want all kids to feel like they have something of value to offer the world?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 7, 2020)

It's impossible to "step up" state schools to match the cultural capital that public schools deliver, because the nature of the cultural capital will then just change. The whole _point_ is to discriminate. The only way round it is to remove its importance in society outside school.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 7, 2020)

I teach A level and spent March to June teaching online every day on Teams, trying to find effective ways of checking student understanding and keeping everyone engaged in lessons, not easy when you can’t see students or check what they are doing. So I was quite surprised in September when I asked the new year 12s how their online lessons had gone. Virtually every student said that their GCSE teachers had abandoned them in April and they had barely studied anything for the last six months. No online lessons, no homework, nothing. Pretty shocking really.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 7, 2020)

goldenecitrone said:


> I teach A level and spent March to June teaching online every day on Teams, trying to find effective ways of checking student understanding and keeping everyone engaged in lessons, not easy when you can’t see students or check what they are doing.



Good for you.



> So I was quite surprised in September when I asked the new year 12s how their online lessons had gone. Virtually every student said that their GCSE teachers had abandoned them in April



Do you teach in Leeds? You are projecting some absolute bollocks there and I don't believe you.



> and they had barely studied anything for the last six months. No online lessons, no homework, nothing. Pretty shocking really.



And these conscientious students didn't take it upon themselves to study for themselves (in the unlikely/unbelievable scenario you provide)?

Because all study has to be provided by teachers?

You're talking shit. I'd like to know why/your motives for this. It doesn't match any reality I know.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

planetgeli as you are a teacher you’ll recall that GCSEs were cancelled this summer. In my experience (yes, in Leeds) year 11 (current year 12) lessons stopped pretty much at that announcement. Why is that unbelievable?


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> planetgeli as you are a teacher you’ll recall that GCSEs were cancelled this summer. In my experience (yes, in Leeds) year 11 (current year 12) lessons stopped pretty much at that announcement. Why is that unbelievable?



I think the entire tone of the post is unbelievable.

It mentions "they had barely studied anything for the last 6 months".

Why 6 months? Lessons stopped in March. Exams were due in May/June before they got cancelled - way before the exam date. So,

a) there was no 6 month study required. 6 weeks at most until the exam, not even that because exams got cancelled for teacher assessment. What are the posters motivations for saying "6 months"? Does the poster think extra tuition should have been available beyond what would have even been normal in schools? No GCSE pupil would have been doing serious classes in June/July.

b) I know a lot of teachers organized online study or even personal tutorial/support via phone. I know a lot of work was sent home by post by a lot of teachers.

That's why.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's impossible to "step up" state schools to match the cultural capital that public schools deliver, because the nature of the cultural capital will then just change. The whole _point_ is to discriminate. The only way round it is to remove its importance in society outside school.



All schools must be above average.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I think the entire tone of the post is unbelievable.
> 
> It mentions "they had barely studied anything for the last 6 months".
> 
> ...


April while September. Five months then. Your tone of voice when speaking to a colleague is remarkable btw.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> April while September. Five months then. Your time of voice when speaking to a colleague is remarkable btw.



Can you write that again in English? Kthx.

/patronising


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> April while September. Five months then. Your time of voice when speaking to a colleague is remarkable btw.


You do know when the school terms are, right? And when exams are held?


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 7, 2020)

Edie said:


> Your time of voice when speaking to a colleague is remarkable btw.



This is funny btw. You need to have half an hour in a school staffroom.


----------



## Mattym (Nov 7, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> Ventilation is really important; if you can do your tutoring in a room with an open window, it may be cold but it’ll be much safer than without a window open.



Let me just add to that- I open all the windows in the room. I don't care about the temperature or the school's uniform policy. If I feel safe with them open, then that's the way it will be. I say to pupils & contrary to the school's uniform policy- 'Put your coat on if you're cold'. Though the school has begun to realise teachers will do this.


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## Edie (Nov 7, 2020)

Hopefully this is of some reassurance 








						Teachers no more likely than other key workers to get Covid, says ONS
					

Union says fall in student Covid cases over half-term is proof schools are spreading virus




					www.google.co.uk


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## purenarcotic (Nov 7, 2020)

There were no exams, most of them would have been finished by June if exams had gone ahead and they would have left the school. We were on study leave, only returned to school to take the exams and once we finished our GCSEs we were on holiday.... what would you have had the teachers do? Carry on teaching the material for the exams that weren’t happening?


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Clearly no. There should be a national curriculum but beyond that Teachers should be allowed to teach as they see fit. They should have responsibility for the kids in their class, including letting parents know how their kid is doing once a term, with a single _meaningful_ sentence. The performance of the school should be the Headteachers concern, not the parents. And wider Social care and food parcels should not be the responsibility of school.


I suspect many teachers would be in favour of much/all of that. Few education workers are happy about the system(s), but the answer to that is not to attack workers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 8, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> There were no exams, most of them would have been finished by June if exams had gone ahead and they would have left the school. We were on study leave, only returned to school to take the exams and once we finished our GCSEs we were on holiday.... what would you have had the teachers do? Carry on teaching the material for the exams that weren’t happening?



And teach through the summer holidays.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> State schools need to massively step up their game. With both exam results and teaching, but also crucially with cultural capital.



But you're not criticising teachers. Only telling them that they need to improve MASSIVELY.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> I suspect many teachers would be in favour of much/all of that. Few education workers are happy about the system(s), but the answer to that is not to attack workers.


I disagree with you. It is absolutely legitimate for students and parents to criticise both individual teachers and individual schools. Just as it is legitimate to criticise the politics that has resulted in the shit show that state education is currently in. You’re telling me that I shouldn’t question their decisions, question their working practices, question their predictions about my son, question the institution and their absurd procedures that result in this? You think if this was a private school they’d get away with this, accept it without complaint? No. But you think I shouldn’t attack this because they are workers of the State? Your politics are messed up. I reject them.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

I don’t think RS is denying that there aren’t individuals who are shit within education. There are shit social workers, unethical doctors, dangerous youth workers... The point, again, is that this is a structural problem. It isn’t solved by gunning for front line staff as the first solution. You want to complain about a teacher. Crack on. But if you want a discussion about the education system as a whole, you have to take it away from the individual and look at the bigger picture.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 8, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> I don’t think RS is denying that there aren’t individuals who are shit within education. There are shit social workers, unethical doctors, dangerous youth workers... The point, again, is that this is a structural problem. It isn’t solved by gunning for front line staff as the first solution. You want to complain about a teacher. Crack on. But if you want a discussion about the education system as a whole, you have to take it away from the individual and look at the bigger picture.


Absolutely this


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> I don’t think RS is denying that there aren’t individuals who are shit within education. There are shit social workers, unethical doctors, dangerous youth workers... The point, again, is that this is a structural problem. It isn’t solved by gunning for front line staff as the first solution. You want to complain about a teacher. Crack on. But if you want a discussion about the education system as a whole, you have to take it away from the individual and look at the bigger picture.


I’m doing both. In fact, my criticism of a minority of teachers was only one of a number of points I made. The fact that has been magnified is not my doing. The reason it’s been magnified is dubious.

Covid has wrenched open the class divide. My son goes to one of the bottom five state schools (thanks for highlighting that Yorkshire Evening Post) in Leeds, a large industrial city in the North of England disproportionally hit by covid, at the junction of two socially deprived estates where there is significant food poverty.

What I am seeing, and what other families are angry about, is a total failure of the school. And I absolutely will question it on every level. Because when I see and hear other people talking about what their kids are being offered it makes me absolutely furious.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> I’m doing both. In fact, my criticism of a minority of teachers was only one of a number of points I made. The fact that has been magnified is not my doing. The reason it’s been magnified is dubious.
> 
> Covid has wrenched open the class divide. My son goes to one of the bottom five state schools (thanks for highlighting that Yorkshire Evening Post) in Leeds, a large industrial city in the North of England disproportionally hit by covid, at the junction of two socially deprived estates where there is significant food poverty.
> 
> What I am seeing, and what other families are angry about, is a total failure of the school. And I absolutely will question it on every level. Because when I see and hear other people talking about what their kids are being offered it makes me absolutely furious.



Do you think the level of deprivation in the community is linked to the schools capacity to  best meet the children’s needs? You seemed to complain in one of your posts about the school handing out food parcels, but hungry children don’t learn. What do you want to happen? Because you bang on about schools stepping up but seem to be totally unable to make the link that the structural inequality that exists will influence how the education system is run and how kids will be treated as a result. Your only solution seems to be to look at the private system, which is only able to have the standards it does because those who attend are not worrying about whether there will be electric on tonight.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> Do you think the level of deprivation in the community is linked to the schools capacity to  best meet the children’s needs? You seemed to complain in one of your posts about the school handing out food parcels, but hungry children don’t learn. What do you want to happen? Because you bang on about schools stepping up but seem to be totally unable to make the link that the structural inequality that exists will influence how the education system is run and how kids will be treated as a result. Your only solution seems to be to look at the private system, which is only able to have the standards it does because those who attend are not worrying about whether there will be electric on tonight.


I have said in a number of posts what I think needs to happen. You are unable to hear it.

Also, guess what, even if I don’t have every answer, I’m STILL allowed to question the current abject failure of my sons school response.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> I have said in a number of posts what I think needs to happen. You are unable to hear it.



Are you being deliberately obtuse?


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse?


Are you able to read this post, and _regardless of whether you agree or not_, recognise that it contains suggestions on how I think education needs to change?



Edie said:


> Clearly no. There should be a national curriculum but beyond that Teachers should be allowed to teach as they see fit. They should have responsibility for the kids in their class, including letting parents know how their kid is doing once a term, with a single _meaningful_ sentence. The performance of the school should be the Headteachers concern, not the parents. And wider Social care and food parcels should not be the responsibility of school.



I have also made it clear that I wish to get rid of performance driven league tables. Questioned whether we should abolish private schools. Argued that state schooling should aim to deliver Cultural Capital as private schools do. And stated repeatedly that parents of state schools- including, in fact especially, of failing state schools- have the right to criticise them.

Yet you ask me what do I want to happen? I’ve told you. You just can’t hear. Why is that?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Are you able to read this post, and _regardless of whether you agree or not_, recognise that it contains suggestions on how I think education needs to change?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But you want things that cannot happen. You want exam results to increase across the board, when that is impossible. You want schools to take responsibility for and fix, presumably by magic, a nepotistic and corrupt social class system; as if it's arbitrary cultural signifiers that clear a path for the privileged and not, you know, actual privilege.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 8, 2020)

Strongly feel this should all be happening in another thread, but I've a question for Edie - if you could afford it, would you send your kids to private school?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

You don’t obtain cultural capital by taking kids to the theatre or a gallery once a year. It’s more complicated than that. It’s the contacts you have, the community around you, the opportunities you have at home as well as at school. And again, you need money to do that with. My old school has talks from prominent women, science, law, whatever. Who do you think pays for these women to come and speak? It’s not free.  And it’s about what society values as ‘culture’ - working class communities have culture, but it is not promoted, valued, and it is not their stories which are told. Or if they are told, they are told by those of us with no lived experience of it, so it is very much done ‘to’.


----------



## elbows (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> My son goes to one of the bottom five state schools (thanks for highlighting that Yorkshire Evening Post) in Leeds, a large industrial city in the North of England disproportionally hit by covid, at the junction of two socially deprived estates where there is significant food poverty.



Is it an academy? 

I ask because academies offer an extra layer of mismanagement potential, but also new opportunities to shame them into being slightly less shit, by attacking the academy publicly. Especially if its part of an academy chain.


----------



## maomao (Nov 8, 2020)

elbows said:


> Is it an academy?
> 
> I ask because academies offer an extra layer of mismanagement potential, but also new opportunities to shame them into being slightly less shit, by attacking the academy publicly. Especially if its part of an academy chain.


I just checked and all five of the bottom performing state schools in Leeds are academies.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Yet you ask me what do I want to happen? I’ve told you. You just can’t hear. Why is that?


So, so many people who can't hear what you're saying. It must be them.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> You don’t obtain cultural capital by taking kids to the theatre or a gallery once a year. It’s more complicated than that. It’s the contacts you have, the community around you, the opportunities you have at home as well as at school. And again, you need money to do that with. My old school has talks from prominent women, science, law, whatever. Who do you think pays for these women to come and speak? It’s not free.  And it’s about what society values as ‘culture’ - working class communities have culture, but it is not promoted, valued, and it is not their stories which are told. Or if they are told, they are told by those of us with no lived experience of it, so it is very much done ‘to’.


You have not answered my question. You have deliberately ignored it. 

Again, I’ve asked you whether you acknowledge that I have indeed made suggestions, _whether or not you agree with them, _and asked you why you couldn’t hear that.

I’m not interested in your excuses about why state kids aren’t allowed what private kids have.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

maomao said:


> I just checked and all five of the bottom performing state schools in Leeds are academies.


Oops tell a lie it’s number X on the shit list of 10 this year, we’ve made progress.

(Edit to replace with X)








						The 10 lowest-performing schools in Leeds for GCSE results revealed by government figures
					

The revised GCSE results of every state school in Leeds - after a period where schools can request a change in data - have been released by the Department of Education.




					www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk
				



.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

existentialist said:


> So, so many people who can't hear what you're saying. It must be them.


Gaslight me all you want, it’s there in black and white.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Strongly feel this should all be happening in another thread, but I've a question for Edie - if you could afford it, would you send your kids to private school?


Surely my actions tell you that?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> You have not answered my question. You have deliberately ignored it.
> 
> Again, I’ve asked you whether you acknowledge that I have indeed made suggestions, _whether or not you agree with them, _and asked you why you couldn’t hear that.
> 
> I’m not interested in your excuses about why state kids aren’t allowed what private kids have.



Yes, I have seen your suggestions. They can’t work, because of the structures that keep everything in place. You want all kids to have great opportunities but don’t seem to recognise that can’t happen until all sorts of structural changes take place. On an individual level, I’m sure there are things your school could do differently. I’ve worked in many tens of schools, I have seen all sorts of things. I’m not blind to poor practice and poor attitude. But as a system, it’s designed for kids to be shat on depending where they are from. If you don’t like that, looking at the private school model is not remotely the way forward. Because it is precisely that model which promotes what you dislike.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Gaslight me all you want, it’s there in black and white.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

Also, given you’ve already said that the private school your son was in wasn’t exactly chuffed with his behaviour, I’m unclear how you then jump to saying that if schools just had better expectations of the kids, it would automatically make a big difference. 😕


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 8, 2020)

Part of the issue with lockdown education in schools with a lot of kids in poverty is that a huge number of kids couldn’t access online teaching, through lack of computers and internet.  

We also experienced issues across all income levels of families who dropped off the map (some went abroad to be with family during lockdown, others just never answered the phone), some families were dealing with bereavement, others became angry with any attempt to check up on why work wasn’t being done because they felt strongly that education wasn’t going to continue until schools reopened...

We were being told conflicting things about how much emphasis we should put on the work we did set: if only some of the kids were able to do it, we couldn’t cover any important new material. 

On top of that, Lambeth, for very good child protection reasons that nevertheless didn’t seem to apply anywhere else, banned zoom/meets/teams teaching completely.  

And so I spent the summer term working long stressful hours without being able to keep on top of each student’s progress anywhere near as well as normal.  

I don’t know what happened to @Edie’s son’s maths teacher.  It sounds bad, but I don’t know if she was trying to teach while having sole care of two or three preschool kids, or if she or one of her kids was dealing with MH issues or domestic assault or bereavement or financial troubles and housing insecurity- or any one of the number of things we know made it so that a stack of our students and their parents weren’t able to do their best over lockdown.  Some people had dreadful lockdowns, and some of those will have been teachers.  

It also sounds like the school isn’t being managed very well.  Targets are generated in year six, and that happens nationally.  Teachers hate these targets, but schools often stop teachers being able to edit them because although they’re meaningless they’re the metric the school is judged on. If teachers can edit them, they might edit them downward which would stop the school hitting its progress goal over all - but someone should have spotted that your son’s Ict target was now meaningless, and changed it to a 9.  They haven’t, and that’s a management failure.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Part of the issue with lockdown education in schools with a lot of kids in poverty is that a huge number of kids couldn’t access online teaching, through lack of computers and internet.
> 
> We also experienced issues across all income levels of families who dropped off the map (some went abroad to be with family during lockdown, others just never answered the phone), some families were dealing with bereavement, others became angry with any attempt to check up on why work wasn’t being done because they felt strongly that education wasn’t going to continue until schools reopened...
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Which is why failure of leadership and management was number ONE on my list of criticisms. Something purenarcotic et al are completely unable to recognise, even see, as it doesn’t fit with their politics.


----------



## Thora (Nov 8, 2020)

One of my kid's teachers was fairly awol during lockdown and it was annoying.  I do realise he probably had mental health stuff going on and was also trying to home school his own kids which of course didn't help, but from my kid's perspective it wasn't great.  I spoke to the school at the time about him not doing the minimum.

Neither of mine had any live lessons during lockdown but I'm glad about that.  We're not even living in poverty but there's no way we could have facilitated it - we were both working, have a younger child, one child needed supervision to do live lessons, we don't have enough devices etc.  Their online schooling was videos and worksheets and nothing was marked so much as just commented on, but I think that was fine really under the circumstances.  We didn't have the same experience as a private school because it wasn't possible.
My kids were ok during lockdown but I know a fairly sizeable proportion of children at their school did not so much as pick up a book from March til September.  That isn't the school's fault though, it was due to a pandemic + the families difficult home situations.

The data obsession is damaging and pointless and I doubt you'll find a teacher who loves it either.  Last week I had to submit attainment data to the LA for 2 year olds that categorised them as "on target" or above/below


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2020)

Anyway I’ve said my bit. You lot continue on with your shamefully low expectations for state school kids and your excuses about why it can’t be better.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Anyway I’ve said my bit. You lot continue on with your shamefully low expectations for state school kids and your excuses about why it can’t be better.



Jesus Christ.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 8, 2020)

Edie said:


> Anyway I’ve said my bit. You lot continue on with your shamefully low expectations for state school kids and your excuses about why it can’t be better.



Superb, full marks.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 8, 2020)

Thora said:


> We're not even living in poverty but there's no way we could have facilitated it - we were both working, have a younger child, one child needed supervision to do live lessons, we don't have enough devices etc.



and this is also not uncommon - I had one of my tutees ask if I could get her a school computer (which we are struggling to get).  I was a bit surprised because I think her family is fairly well-off but she is one of 3 siblings and both parents are working from home.  They don't have 5 computers that can all be used at the same time.

We had the same issue at the start of lockdown with our kids and even for me.  I didn't have a computer to work with from home, so we had to recondition an old one that we had lying around so I could teach remotely.  I have a chromebook but really I needed a full computer/laptop - and even now what I'm working with is a bit hooky.

Gaijinboy, who works for a private company, on the other hand was given a desk, 2 screens, a new computer chair, keyboard, mouse etc etc.  His office looks amazing.  I've got a secondhand laptop on a tiny desk.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 8, 2020)

Thora said:


> The data obsession is damaging and pointless and I doubt you'll find a teacher who loves it either.  Last week I had to submit attainment data to the LA for 2 year olds that categorised them as "on target" or above/below



aaaaaargh!


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 8, 2020)

nm, can't be arsed


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 8, 2020)

Actually on the school reports.  All the schools I have worked at have had drop down menu reports.  My current school is the first I've worked at where we're allowed to write reports in our own words.  I prefer this personally as I find it frustrating and near-impossible to categorise each child from a selection of pre-prepared sentences.  However, it is very time-consuming - not just for me, but it means that we have members of staff whose job it is to proof-read all the reports to make sure that there are no typos/correct names are used etc.  Teachers are honestly drowning with workload.

I had a man come in from the City - he'd worked in a high-pressure City job almost all his working life and had made a lot of money so jacked it in to do something more rewarding.  I found him in his second week of teacher training in tears by the photocopy machine.  It really is insane.  Once you have lots of experience it does get easier but for a good number of years it's really really very hard indeed.  There are a lot of casualties.

It doesn't help when we read so much negative stuff about ourselves in the press either.


----------



## Thora (Nov 8, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> and this is also not uncommon - I had one of my tutees ask if I could get her a school computer (which we are struggling to get).  I was a bit surprised because I think her family is fairly well-off but she is one of 3 siblings and both parents are working from home.  They don't have 5 computers that can all be used at the same time.
> 
> We had the same issue at the start of lockdown with our kids and even for me.  I didn't have a computer to work with from home, so we had to recondition an old one that we had lying around so I could teach remotely.  I have a chromebook but really I needed a full computer/laptop - and even now what I'm working with is a bit hooky.
> 
> Gaijinboy, who works for a private company, on the other hand was given a desk, 2 screens, a new computer chair, keyboard, mouse etc etc.  His office looks amazing.  I've got a secondhand laptop on a tiny desk.


And the sheer number of different platforms being used and not all will work on a chromebook/phone/desktop and some you need to scan QR codes and upload things... between 3 children we were doing or submitting work from two school websites, tapestry, purple mash, seesaw, TT Rockstars and class dojo   It was a full time job just managing all that (I bought some paper workbooks in the end).


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2020)

Sister (teacher) is going for her third C-19 test. Not long after a 14 day Isolation. 

Her youngest daughter (up thread) who had symptoms tested negative. However one of her students has tested positive as well as the replacement (usual one tested positive) assistant and the cleaner.

Her eldest daughters year is still in quarantine as several kids, teachers and other staff have tested positive.

My mum who has been helping with the school run during sisters quarantine is now showing symptoms and off for a test tomorrow.

#worldbeating


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 8, 2020)

Thora said:


> And the sheer number of different platforms being used and not all will work on a chromebook/phone/desktop and some you need to scan QR codes and upload things... between 3 children we were doing or submitting work from two school websites, tapestry, purple mash, seesaw, TT Rockstars and class dojo   It was a full time job just managing all that (I bought some paper workbooks in the end).



Yes - I think nationally, teachers went a bit bonkers with all the different platforms.  We do a lot of surveys at my workplace and one of the things that came back was that students/parents found that really too much.  It's something we've taken on board.  Almost all the CPD at the moment is about "blended learning" etc.  It was a very steep learning curve and we're still learning now.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 8, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Actually on the school reports.  All the schools I have worked at have had drop down menu reports.  My current school is the first I've worked at where we're allowed to write reports in our own words.  I prefer this personally as I find it frustrating and near-impossible to categorise each child from a selection of pre-prepared sentences.  However, it is very time-consuming - not just for me, but it means that we have members of staff whose job it is to proof-read all the reports to make sure that there are no typos/correct names are used etc.  Teachers are honestly drowning with workload.
> 
> I had a man come in from the City - he'd worked in a high-pressure City job almost all his working life and had made a lot of money so jacked it in to do something more rewarding.  I found him in his second week of teacher training in tears by the photocopy machine.  It really is insane.  Once you have lots of experience it does get easier but for a good number of years it's really really very hard indeed.  There are a lot of casualties.
> 
> It doesn't help when we read so much negative stuff about ourselves in the press either.



My eldest's school ( a very good school) did no online lessons or return any work at all (year 7). I don't know what they did for year 11. The message to year 7 was to do as much as you can and look after yourself. That suited us, for her and for the teachers. I didn't want her teachers working over 12 hour days, on their days off and at weekends to provide online lessons. This term, following surveys last term about what tech we had available, when R had to self-isolate she did have lessons online and it seemed to work well on the whole. 

Yesterday, I spoke to my sister who teaches music in Liverpool and they don't have access to music rooms and instruments, she's not actually able to teach her subject. I think she's really struggling and she is very much a coper.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 9, 2020)

My daughter says bubbles are not being enforced at her school now, the teachers seem indifferent to mixing at break times in a way they didn't in September.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 9, 2020)

S☼I said:


> My daughter says bubbles are not being enforced at her school now, the teachers seem indifferent to mixing at break times in a way they didn't in September.



I doubt they're indifferent but it must all be taking its toll on teachers states of mind, it's not like they get any support to think about all these new roles they're having to play while putting themselves at risk is it? When I spoke with my sister it took _3 times_ before she realised I was asking a question about support for staff rather than pastoral support for the students. I think this is the outcome of not thinking about staff needs psychologically and a culture of blaming individuals for not coping, very much like healthcare.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 9, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> I doubt they're indifferent but it must all be taking its toll on teachers states of mind, it's not like they get any support to think about all these new roles they're having to play while putting themselves at risk is it? When I spoke with my sister it took _3 times_ before she realised I was asking a question about support for staff rather than pastoral support for the students. I think this is the outcome of not thinking about staff needs psychologically and a culture of blaming individuals for not coping, very much like healthcare.


No, I know. I've had myself removed from refectory duty in college as it was too stressful. I see in college an indifference to challenging which has come about (or always been there) as staff have not been dealing with anything outside their areas. In my opinion the most senior people should have spent the first week of term laying down a marker for everyone else. If a team.of staff don't all enforce health and safety rules all the time it just slips until all that's left is tape down a corridor and a few signs.


----------



## LDC (Nov 9, 2020)

How is it working for students being told to isolate after being near a positive contact at school? The 17 year old that lives in this house sat about 1-2m diagonally behind a positive case for a whole class, but the only other students told to self isolate have been the ones sitting right next to them. Windows were open but this was in a small classroom.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 9, 2020)

My daughter had to self-isolate along with quite a few of her friends the past fortnight. Each time there's a positive test anywhere in school, they send a letter, say they've sought advice from the local public health body and what the action is.


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 9, 2020)

S☼I said:


> No, I know. I've had myself removed from refectory duty in college as it was too stressful. I see in college an indifference to challenging which has come about (or always been there) as staff have not been dealing with anything outside their areas. In my opinion the most senior people should have spent the first week of term laying down a marker for everyone else. If a team.of staff don't all enforce health and safety rules all the time it just slips until all that's left is tape down a corridor and a few signs.



It's complicated at college isn't it? Developmentally, young people are becoming more independent, and then all of a sudden they have to be policed by teachers as though they are little ones again. 

I'd see indifference as a defence against feeling overwhelmed, like an internal tape down the corridor.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 9, 2020)

Over the weekend we had our first positive cases.  One of the lower sixth, which has meant about 20 kids staying home, and one of my performing arts colleagues.  There are nine PA teachers and one LSA in the faculty, and everyone has to stay home for two weeks... except me.  Because I kept my distance! Except now every slight malaise has me questioning my own plague status.  I took my temperature when I got home.  An unhelpful, close-but-no-cigar, yet high enough not to completely put my mind at rest 37.5.  

Anyway, we’re also isolating a handful of her students in each class she taught from Friday onwards.  And on Wednesdays only, when we would normally all be teaching half of year nine all day, (visual arts have the other half) that half of the year group will stay home and have their lessons online.  

It’s all just a bit of a ball ache, really.   

Edit.  Just took my temp again and it’s a shade under 37 degrees.  I’m fine, aren’t I?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Sister (teacher) is going for her third C-19 test. Not long after a 14 day Isolation.
> 
> Her youngest daughter (up thread) who had symptoms tested negative. However one of her students has tested positive as well as the replacement (usual one tested positive) assistant and the cleaner.
> 
> ...


MummyBadgers tested negative but is sick with cold or a flu. 

SisterBadgers has been quarantined AGAIN due to multiple infections in her class and year. Several other teachers are quarantined too. 

Youngest niece is ill with bad cold or a flu. Oldest niece is not but her whole year is now quarantined. Same for youngest nieces year. 

SisterBadgers in-laws have been isolated too due to other health conditions. 

SisterBadgers husband works for the railway and seems to be negative and still going to work. 

#worldbeating


----------



## maomao (Nov 9, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Just took my temp again and it’s a shade under 37 degrees. I’m fine, aren’t I?


You don't have a fever anyway and if you first took it when you just came in it was probably a few tenths higher from activity. Hope you're okay.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 12, 2020)

BB2's year was sent home this morning, year 3. I normally drop her at the gate, after doing so was mooching off spraffing with some parents and a teacher called us all back to the playground to break the news. She must stay at home until 24th November. Year 6 in her school went home on Monday, so they school is down to years 4&5 only, odds on they will be next. the head looked really pissed off.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 12, 2020)

I'm getting pissed off with the primary strategy. Whole year groups sent home - 90 kids at my son's school- when most of the children will have had little, if any, contact with the positive individual. Don't see why they can't move to class bubbles with lunch in classrooms and staggered playtimes or demarcated areas for each class.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 14, 2020)

We’ve gone to class bubbles rather than year bubbles under new guidelines. No further cases appeared related to the year six case (whole year sent home just before half term).

We’ve now had a staff case, one of the people from the company that runs the after school club tested positive, eleven kids sent home to isolate. Kind of worrying me now how prevalent this is getting, rate in Bristol is pretty high.  They fucked it by letting the students come back.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 14, 2020)

SAGE are saying after lockdown 2 the Tier System wont be enough to stop a surge in cases before Christmas - even Tier 3 cant be relied on to bring down cases. Scientists warn of Christmas Covid surge if tier system returns

Seems to me its basically either shut schools for a bit, or perma Lockdown 2-style


----------



## killer b (Nov 16, 2020)

I had an email from the kids school today which laid out the procedure, should the school start only opening to certain year groups on certain days, or close altogether except for key workers kids etc - reckon this is just housekeeping, or a signal of what to expect in the next few weeks?


----------



## Thora (Nov 16, 2020)

killer b said:


> I had an email from the kids school today which laid out the procedure, should the school start only opening to certain year groups on certain days, or close altogether except for key workers kids etc - reckon this is just housekeeping, or a signal of what to expect in the next few weeks?


All schools have about 12 different plans in place for various scenarios.  Afaik (school governor) nothing new has come from DfE.  Partial opening is probably more likely to be due to staff shortages than the government making a sensible decision about anything.


----------



## killer b (Nov 16, 2020)

Thora said:


> All schools have about 12 different plans in place for various scenarios.


Oh, I know - we've had loads of stuff through from them over the last few months - these two things seem new though, so I was wondering if that meant anything. I guess it's unlikely something could be briefed to headteachers without it immediately leaking to the press mind.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 16, 2020)

killer b said:


> guess it's unlikely something could be briefed to headteachers without it immediately leaking to the press mind.



Oh this absolutely happened prior to lockdown 1


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## chilango (Nov 16, 2020)

Round here it _seems_ to blowing up again.  Any thoughts why there might be a surge right now?


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## spanglechick (Nov 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Round here it _seems_ to blowing up again.  Any thoughts why there might be a surge right now?


The “last night of freedom” parties prior to 3rd November.


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## elbows (Nov 16, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> The “last night of freedom” parties prior to 3rd November.



Prior to 5th November.

Plus half-term effects wearing off.

Additional variables that could affect testing numbers mean I am still hanging on for hospital admissions data to do the talking instead.


----------



## chilango (Nov 16, 2020)

Hey. In the seven minutes since I posted that, I've had news of significant escalations.


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## elbows (Nov 16, 2020)

Here we go again with this predictable shit:



> Some teachers are being told to disable the government’s Covid test-and-trace system while in school and to disregard notifications in order to reduce the number of staff required to self-isolate, a union has claimed.
> 
> The NASUWT said it had received numerous reports from concerned teachers across England, including one case where the instruction was based on advice provided by the local public health team.











						Union says teachers in England being told to pause Covid app in school
					

Some staff reportedly told to ignore notifications to reduce numbers required to self-isolate




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

Just got a letter. Eldest's year group have to isolate for two weeks due to a positive case in another class. That's 90 kids.
No idea how I'm supposed to work as this system is unworkable for parents.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Just got a letter. Eldest's year group have to isolate for two weeks due to a positive case in another class. That's 90 kids.
> No idea how I'm supposed to work as this system is unworkable for parents.



We're "lucky" in that gaijinboy works from home. Does Mr Nagapie not?


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> We're "lucky" in that gaijinboy works from home. Does Mr Nagapie not?


The ex Mr nagapie will be able to help but we don't live together so there will be issues.


----------



## chilango (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Just got a letter. Eldest's year group have to isolate for two weeks due to a positive case in another class. That's 90 kids.
> No idea how I'm supposed to work as this system is unworkable for parents.



I've heard of schools where - because of this - parents are trying to bring kids who've been sent home into school. As you can imagine this has resulted in some pretty tense situations for all involved.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> The ex Mr nagapie will be able to help but we don't live together so there will be issues.



Oh I'm sorry. I had no idea. Obviously happy to help where possible although I'm not sure what we could do.

Your school will have to agree to you staying at home.


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I'm getting pissed off with the primary strategy. Whole year groups sent home - 90 kids at my son's school- when most of the children will have had little, if any, contact with the positive individual. Don't see why they can't move to class bubbles with lunch in classrooms and staggered playtimes or demarcated areas for each class.


This is what was supposed to happen at my daughter's school but they seem to have fucked it all up by streaming cross year sets for phonics and maths resulting in three year groups being sent home.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Oh I'm sorry. I had no idea. Obviously happy to help where possible although I'm not sure what we could do.
> 
> Your school will have to agree to you staying at home.


I know. But as you know that's a total headfuck in itself. Will have to prepare all lessons and all my unseen work, tons, will just pile up.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I know. But as you know that's a total headfuck in itself. Will have to prepare all lessons and all my unseen work, tons, will just pile up.



I know. It's a TFN.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> I know. It's a TFN.


And to make things worse, the pile up will be mostly tons and tons of access work for exams that no other UK country will be sitting.


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Just got a letter. Eldest's year group have to isolate for two weeks due to a positive case in another class. That's 90 kids.
> No idea how I'm supposed to work as this system is unworkable for parents.


Why does he have to isolate if it's a case in another class?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 21, 2020)

Thora said:


> Why does he have to isolate if it's a case in another class?



Presumably because the year group is treated as a bubble, not a class. So I assume lunch and playtime etc are all shared together. That’s how OH’s work seem to do it, so they have had whole year groups had to go out regularly.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

Thora said:


> Why does he have to isolate if it's a case in another class?


What purenarcotic said. A week ago I wrote to their head asking him to reconsider their system as every week they are sending year groups home, 90 kids at a time, when my secondary only sends home close contacts. 
And to add insult to injury, if you have a sibling in another year group they still get to go. So it just seems pointless.
His answer was that he hasn't the staff to run class bubbles. 
Gov need to put extra staff into school.


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

I see.  My kids schools both do class bubbles rather than year groups.  They eat lunch in their classrooms and have coned off areas in the playground for each class - it does mean break time isn't super exciting at the moment as they haven't got much space and can't play football or anything but they seem to be managing.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

Thora said:


> I see.  My kids schools both do class bubbles rather than year groups.  They eat lunch in their classrooms and have coned off areas in the playground for each class - it does mean break time isn't super exciting at the moment as they haven't got much space and can't play football or anything but they seem to be managing.


I don't fully understand why they don't have enough staff for this but I have to assume it's so as that's what he's said.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2020)

Because the virus infects teachers or they have to self-isolate.


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I don't fully understand why they don't have enough staff for this but I have to assume it's so as that's what he's said.


It's probably more a decision about how you run things with the staff you have.  The school I am governor of are being very strict with the class bubbles but it does mean we have had to lose some of the "extra" stuff that was run across a whole year or between years - so there's no wraparound care at the moment, no extracurricular clubs, phonics & intervention groups are just within classes now rather than across years/phase, and the nurture group which used to be children from several classes is now running for a class per term.  Whereas if we called a year group or key stage a "bubble" you could still do lots of that stuff.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

elbows said:


> Because the virus infects teachers or they have to self-isolate.


I know as I am a teacher. However each teacher has a class so if one class goes into isolation so does the teacher. So in theory there should be enough teachers. Why there isn't is because of online teaching and things like first aid/health and safety etc. I'm not denying what he's said, just think that if we're going to keep schools open and pretend they are functioning then there should be extra staff put in by the government.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

Thora said:


> It's probably more a decision about how you run things with the staff you have.  The school I am governor of are being very strict with the class bubbles but it does mean we have had to lose some of the "extra" stuff that was run across a whole year or between years - so there's no wraparound care at the moment, no extracurricular clubs, phonics & intervention groups are just within classes now rather than across years/phase, and the nurture group which used to be children from several classes is now running for a class per term.  Whereas if we called a year group or key stage a "bubble" you could still do lots of that stuff.


I do feel he could have found a way. They are a large school with a not insonsiderable staff. But this seems to be how many primaries are running things. At my secondary school we have all taken on extra duties to keep things running.


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I do feel he could have found a way. They are a large school with a not insonsiderable staff. But this seems to be how many primaries are running things. At my secondary school we have all taken on extra duties to keep things running.


Is it part of a chain?  I guess it's a decision between offering less but making it less likely covid will spread/years will close *or* offering more but risking more infections/closures.  Those decisions were made at academy trust level rather than by individual schools for us though so we weren't taking that responsibility!


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

There are a couple of (small) primaries near me that have just said they have two bubbles, infants and juniors, and have essentially carried on as normal within that - no staggered start times etc  But it does mean one of them has the entire infants home isolating at the moment.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

Thora said:


> Is it part of a chain?  I guess it's a decision between offering less but making it less likely covid will spread/years will close *or* offering more but risking more infections/closures.  Those decisions were made at academy trust level rather than by individual schools for us though so we weren't taking that responsibility!


No, not a chain nor an academy. Staggered times happening but otherwise pretty much seems normal. Wraparound care still running, year groups segregated but as everyone knows, there are many siblings across year groups.


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

It’s a hard one, I don’t really know which model is best. For me personally it’s much better that they are really strict but are more likely to keep the school open as if mine are off isolating I can’t work and won’t get paid.
But then if I had a child who really needed to be in intervention groups or nurture and that wasn’t happening, I’d probably be wishing they would relax things a bit and take the risk.
Also I don’t need wraparound care - if that was important for me to work then I’d be stuck if they kept to class bubbles.


----------



## Thora (Nov 21, 2020)

And of course that’s without even considering the risk of actually getting covid if your child/family is vulnerable.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

Government funding extra staff in schools would help. Right now they're just pretending kids are getting an education. England have not even cancelled exams like the rest of the UK.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> And to make things worse, the pile up will be mostly tons and tons of access work for exams that no other UK country will be sitting.



... and we might not either, or at least not all of them - potentially core subjects only. Certainly it's an option being explored by Amanda Spieleman and The Recovery Committee.

Of course that decision will be made last minute like all others so not much help to you or I.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> ... and we might not either, or at least not all of them - potentially core subjects only. Certainly it's an option being explored by Amanda Spieleman and The Recovery Committee.
> 
> Of course that decision will be made last minute like all others so not much help to you or I.


My workload for access will stay the same if any exams so makes no difference to.me if it's just the core.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

I've no idea how they're justifying exams in any subject with so many children up and down the country missing days of school.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> My workload for access will stay the same if any exams so makes no difference to.me if it's just the core.



I'll still have complete all the MfL paperwork though both for access and everything else so an earlier decision would be nice.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I've no idea how they're justifying exams in any subject with so many children up and down the country missing days of school.



Well the knock on from that would be that non-core classes get cancelled at the earliest available opportunity (and you know how ready some schools are to do that anyway) to make way for intensive maths/English/science lessons whilst the rest of us fight over remaining lunchtime/after school/weekends to teach our 2nd class subjects.  At least in many schools that's likely to be the case.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Well the knock on from that would be that non-core classes get cancelled at the earliest available opportunity (and you know how ready some schools are to do that anyway) to make way for intensive maths/English/science lessons whilst the rest of us fight over remaining lunchtime/after school/weekends to teach our 2nd class subjects.  At least in many schools that's likely to be the case.


It's all infuriating x


----------



## baldrick (Nov 21, 2020)

Cases ramping up again where we are. We shifted to fixed seating plans before half term so with the form group bubbles we're able to send only close contacts home and not whole year groups.

We still have 60 kids off overall, numbers which have been increasing day by day since half term. A local school has closed for two weeks due to case numbers in the staff and students. Feeling very lucky, comparatively. We had a dreadful start to the year which I think has spurred people in school to keep up with social distancing etc. 

It is cold though with windows open. I don't want to think about what is going to be like in January when the really cold weather starts. It's barely tolerable now and I think it's an unseasonably warm November tbh.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

We've been very lucky in my school. Very few sent home at all so far.  It's practically impossible for teachers to be sent home unless we or a household member has a positive diagnosis.  It's bloody cold though. 

My kids' school, only nursery, reception and year 4 haven't been sent home so far. My eldest, year 6, is isolating now for two weeks.  My youngest (year 4) is going in, for now. 

It's dragging on now.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 21, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> We've been very lucky in my school. Very few sent home at all so far.  It's practically impossible for teachers to be sent home unless we or a household member has a positive diagnosis.  It's bloody cold though.
> 
> My kids' school, only nursery, reception and year 4 haven't been sent home so far. My eldest, year 6, is isolating now for two weeks.  My youngest (year 4) is going in, for now.
> 
> It's dragging on now.


Reception are out too now for the next two weeks.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 21, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Reception are out too now for the next two weeks.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 22, 2020)

BB2’s year can go back to school on Tuesday, BB1 was sent home from college on Friday and told to isolate for 12 days (infected person was last in on Wednesday it seems). It just feels never ending right now, and we’re very lucky that this doesn’t impact mine or Frau Bahn’s work.


----------



## elbows (Nov 22, 2020)

Two Blackpool school workers 'in intensive care after testing positive for coronavirus'
					

Two resort school workers were seriously ill in hospital after contracting Covid-19, a local headteacher said.




					www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk
				






> Blackpool Council, which launched a £20,000 PR offensive two months ago in a bid to reassure people classrooms are safe, refused to give an update on the workers' conditions or say which schools they are from.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 22, 2020)

Good thread...


----------



## nagapie (Nov 25, 2020)

My son's bubble are isolating for two weeks. My own school has said they've come up with a very fair system for teachers who have to stay home to look after isolating children: instead of unpaid leave, we can work the extra hours over holidays etc. 
Penalising parents for there being a global pandemic, nice.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I don't fully understand why they don't have enough staff for this but I have to assume it's so as that's what he's said.



There weren't enough staff to begin with.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> There weren't enough staff to begin with.


As Thora said, there is some case for redeploying people, the NHS and LEAs are certainly doing it. I don't think my son's school didn't have enough staff to begin with. There is a class teacher for every class, a big bank of TAs (it's a large school), at least 2 coaches on the permanent staff, at least 3 learning mentors on the permanent staff, apart from the Head and Deputy there are at least 4 Senior Leadership staff who are non teaching, 2 non teaching SENCos, a librarian and that's the additional staff I know of. 
The positive tests lately have all been children. But as I said, if he says he can't, then he can't.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Gov need to put extra staff into school.



Again, these extra staff don't really exist. I'm starting my first PGCE placement next week and I fully expect to be on covid marshall duties the whole time and doing fuck all actual teaching, still less learning anything myself.

Anecdotally teachers are already doing jobs like bus dispatching that they don't have time to do and aren't paid for.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Again, these extra staff don't really exist. I'm starting my first PGCE placement next week and I fully expect to be on covid marshall duties the whole time and doing fuck all actual teaching, still less learning anything myself.
> 
> Anecdotally teachers are already doing jobs like bus dispatching that they don't have time to do and aren't paid for.


Hopefully not. Our trainee teachers are managing to get in the classroom. 
It doesn't seem to be not enough teachers for classroom bubbles at my son's school, it was more to do with health and safety, first aid etc. So one imagines troops of support staff could be trained up and sent in, although not sure this is necessary because there are loads of teaching and support staff agencies with staff but schools don't have the budgets to get them in. Hence gov money.


----------



## elbows (Dec 1, 2020)

> *Education has been "completely disrupted" by the sheer scale of Covid absences in some schools in some areas, Ofsted regional bosses have warned.*
> 
> The regional directors for North-West England and the West Midlands say the impact of rules around self-isolation has significantly impacted attendance.
> 
> ...











						Ofsted points to total school disruption in some areas
					

Regional Ofsted bosses say schooling has been 'completely disrupted' by Covid-19 in some areas.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

elbows said:


> Ofsted points to total school disruption in some areas
> 
> 
> Regional Ofsted bosses say schooling has been 'completely disrupted' by Covid-19 in some areas.
> ...


Hardly a shocker

Should have given the staff and kids substantial scotch eggs for lunch. Would have solved everything.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 2, 2020)

Two staff members at my school have tested positive. They were busy organising who was close contacts but I had to leave anyway to go home to look after my isolating child.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Hardly a shocker
> 
> Should have given the staff and kids substantial scotch eggs for lunch. Would have solved everything.



Only if they'd had a few pints with them tbf.


----------



## 20Bees (Dec 5, 2020)

My grandson is 4, his nursery has two positive cases and he is identified as a child who has been in close contact with the infected adult. He has to isolate for 14 days and guidance on the gov.uk website for adults says not to leave the house at all. His mother is a single parent, already working from home. Presumably the child cannot shuttle between there and his father’s house, nor come to me (I’m my daughter’s childcare bubble), but he can use his own garden?


----------



## Aladdin (Dec 5, 2020)

Local school has 15 teachers off school and isolating. 6 have tested positive. One class year of pupils has been sent home to isolate for 2 weeks.
The rest of the school is open..
We have just come out of level 5 restrictions and are now in level 3. 
There is a strong likelihood that numbers will start to increase again within 3 weeks and we will be back into level 5 restrictions and worse by mid January. 
People just dont seem to understand that this virus is opportunistic and very much still in the community. 
I feel schools will end up closing in January if / when the situation worsens.


----------



## Thora (Dec 5, 2020)

20Bees said:


> My grandson is 4, his nursery has two positive cases and he is identified as a child who has been in close contact with the infected adult. He has to isolate for 14 days and guidance on the gov.uk website for adults says not to leave the house at all. His mother is a single parent, already working from home. Presumably the child cannot shuttle between there and his father’s house, nor come to me (I’m my daughter’s childcare bubble), but he can use his own garden?


I understand he is allowed to go to his dad's.  I haven't seen anything specifically banning the childcare bubble, especially if you go to his house - but it terms of reducing the risk of spread it's better if he stays at home and has as little contact with other people as possible.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 5, 2020)

Thora said:


> I understand he is allowed to go to his dad's.  I haven't seen anything specifically banning the childcare bubble, especially if you go to his house - but it terms of reducing the risk of spread it's better if he stays at home and has as little contact with other people as possible.


In this case I would definitely expect dad to share the load.


----------



## 20Bees (Dec 5, 2020)

nagapie said:


> In this case I would definitely expect dad to share the load.


I haven’t found anything on the gov.uk website specifically about self-isolating pre-school children. His whole class - or room, as nursery call it - is to stay home


----------



## nagapie (Dec 5, 2020)

20Bees said:


> I haven’t found anything on the gov.uk website specifically about self-isolating pre-school children. His whole class - or room, as nursery call it - is to stay home


But children during lockdown could go between parents. So I think as he's isolating, not positive, he can be looked after by both. And even if he was positive, I'd expect both parents to look after him.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 5, 2020)

This is very much a non-teacher's/non-parent's question coming up now.

But I've been catching up with the last ten or so page of this thread, and most of the more recent posts -- about pupil-group closures and isolation of various categories of pupil groups in various schools -- genuinely make me wonder!!

Wonder, that is, whether closures of entire schools -- or at least a doubling of the length of half-term a few weeks ago -- would have been so much worse than how nightmareish things seem to have turned out now??

I'm asking in the hope that teachers and parents posting can (politely?) put me right and explain thigs a bit, if my 'wondering' above is a load of bollocks 

I would genuinely like to know though. 

A few parents, and a fair few more grandparents where I work are talking a lot just now about pupil groups/classroom groups, etc., being sent home. And various teachers also having to isolate.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 5, 2020)

There's no guarantee that doubling half term would have had much if any impact on school bubbles being sent home. One week and then service would have resumed as normal with an extra long half term and bubbles closing.  In fact Wales had a double half term didn't it? And they're currently seeing an upturn in cases. As a parent and a teacher, I don't want to see schools closed for extra periods. Independent Sage made a report a week or so ago on how to keep schools safe and stressed that they didn't want to see schools closed because of all the problems it creates socially.


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Independent Sage made a report a week or so ago on how to keep schools safe and stressed that they didn't want to see schools closed because of all the problems it creates socially.



Its full of recommendations that will be difficult, cant be done, wont be done, wont be funded, or that people will still moan about. For example increasing staff numbers seems somewhat implausible, and what they call for will involve more home learning for secondary school children, not less.



			https://www.independentsage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Safe-schools-v4b1.pdf
		




> Key conclusions, action points and responsibilities:
> Measures
> 
> Distancing: Smaller classes are needed in primary schools to make distancing more successful. Secondary schools should reorganise to minimise contact between different classes, and prevent opportunities for infection outside the classroom such as school transport, lunchtimes, and gatherings to enter rooms. Many secondary schools in areas with high levels of infection will need to introduce a blend between on-site and home-based learning. [page 3 and appendix A]
> ...





> Responsibilities
> In order to implement this plan of action, Central Government, Ofsted, local authorities, academy trusts, and headteachers and governors, should adopt responsibilities as below:
> Central government must:
> 
> ...


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 6, 2020)

nagapie said:


> There's no guarantee that doubling half term would have had much if any impact on school bubbles being sent home. One week and then service would have resumed as normal with an extra long half term and bubbles closing.  In fact Wales had a double half term didn't it? And they're currently seeing an upturn in cases. As a parent and a teacher, I don't want to see schools closed for extra periods. Independent Sage made a report a week or so ago on how to keep schools safe and stressed that they didn't want to see schools closed because of all the problems it creates socially.



No, Wales didn't have a double half term, just a few areas (such as Pembrokeshire) which worked an extra week in the summer.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 6, 2020)

elbows said:


> Its full of recommendations that will be difficult, cant be done, wont be done, wont be funded, or that people will still moan about. For example increasing staff numbers seems somewhat implausible, and what they call for will involve more home learning for secondary school children, not less.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.independentsage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Safe-schools-v4b1.pdf


The fact that the government won't even admit the problems in schools nevermind fund what's necessary is in keeping with every aspect of how they've handled the crisis.
Learning would be blended for secondary so they'd still be in school. And perhaps if the other measures were in place, blending wouldn't need to be mean too much reduced school time.
I'm not in favour of schools closing, I think that's pretty clear. Especially when retail and pubs/restaurants are open and Christmas is allowed.


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2020)

A lot of the recommendations are for things that should have been worked on over summer and implemented from the start of term. The lack of effort or care in that regard makes me think they wont bother with any of those things now, they will just expect schools to muddle through, with perhaps one or two major changes to come if the situation forces them to go further.

A lot of it boils down to making bubbles smaller, and providing testing for all who are in a bubble that ends up with cases, very much including people with no symptoms. When no serious attempts are made to do this, there arent many other recommendations left for me to get my teeth into.

They cant be bothered, wont provide the funding and there is no sign that the proper testing system capacity is going to increase to the point where people without symptoms are going to be tested (which is why they are using lateral flow tests with less reliability when doing broader community testing that includes asymptomatic people).

I wouldnt have opened pubs and restaurants at this time, and I would have shut them a while before the term even started to create more wiggle room for education within in the broader infection picture.

I will crunch some numbers at some point to see if I can get a better idea about recent infection levels in school aged children in different regions.


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## nagapie (Dec 6, 2020)

Absolutely. And now when we should get a two week break, Christmas is going to happen. Keeping schools open should be the priority.


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2020)

The supplemental document from the weekly surveillance report continues to show a large number of graphs relating to those of school age. Too many to post them all so here are just a couple.



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940859/Weekly_COVID-19_and_Influenza_Surveillance_Graphs_W49.pdf


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## Badgers (Dec 6, 2020)

Sister (primary school teacher) has just finished her third 14 day isolation/quarantine due to colleagues testing positive. 

Niece1 started her second 14 day isolation/quarantine this term on Thursday last week. 

Niece2 went back last week after her second isolation/quarantine this term.


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## nagapie (Dec 7, 2020)

My school is closed for all 600 students. 8 colleagues positive in the last few days. It seems that it's been all adult to adult transmission. This is because it is impossible to follow the risk assessment, our school isn't big enough.
Youngest son's bubble sent home today for rest of term.
Yes, schools are going down. There are virtually any proper safety practices in place.


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 7, 2020)

And elsewhere in south London.  After several outbreaks last week among students we have had to send home all of the sixth form and year eleven, all of year eight, and two classes of year seven.  In addition, most of my faculty is isolating again because one of the music lot tested positive.  He went to the pub on Friday with one of the drama teachers, someone from English and one chap from MFL.  Then he went round his girlfriend’s flat, and she happens to share a place with one of the dance staff.   
Meanwhile almost all of Humanities are not just off but have tested positive!

And then I developed a sore throat, and slight cough.  I haven’t had contact with any of the above, and because all my classes were doing remote lessons today I went in, though I sat in a room on my own all day.  Over the afternoon I developed a splitting headache and a temperature of 38... so given the “plague pit” context I thought I should book a test.  I had to lie as my symptoms don’t meet those on the govt criteria list.  My cough is not persistent m, my temperature is half a degree too low, my headache and sore throat - despite anecdotally being possible symptoms are apparently neither here nor there.  

But honestly.  It would feel so irresponsible to continue working! In a school!

The walk in test centre (in the car park of Crystal Palace Park) is a tunnel of freezing cold tents manned by people that seem strangely like club bouncers or xmas tree salesmen.  It was unpleasant but I was ushered in straight away to read to instructions on the wall and test myself.  Within 36 hours, they reckon, for the results.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 7, 2020)

spanglechick , my life mirrors your post almost exactly. I have also had to take a test after being the only non isolating person in my department and now have unwell but not official covid symptoms.


----------



## Thora (Dec 7, 2020)

A temperature of 38 and coughing more than 3 times in 24 hours surely does meet the criteria?


----------



## maomao (Dec 7, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> And elsewhere in south London.  After several outbreaks last week among students we have had to send home all of the sixth form and year eleven, all of year eight, and two classes of year seven.  In addition, most of my faculty is isolating again because one of the music lot tested positive.  He went to the pub on Friday with one of the drama teachers, someone from English and one chap from MFL.  Then he went round his girlfriend’s flat, and she happens to share a place with one of the dance staff.
> Meanwhile almost all of Humanities are not just off but have tested positive!
> 
> And then I developed a sore throat, and slight cough.  I haven’t had contact with any of the above, and because all my classes were doing remote lessons today I went in, though I sat in a room on my own all day.  Over the afternoon I developed a splitting headache and a temperature of 38... so given the “plague pit” context I thought I should book a test.  I had to lie as my symptoms don’t meet those on the govt criteria list.  My cough is not persistent m, my temperature is half a degree too low, my headache and sore throat - despite anecdotally being possible symptoms are apparently neither here nor there.
> ...


You definitely did the right thing. I got tested on much milder symptoms (as my son was being tested with full blown symptoms) because I wanted to be able to prove that I was okay to keep working in a school and the pcm asked me to when I told her I was taking my son. Given the amount of covid in your school and your other risk factors you have every right to get it checked out. Hope you're okay anyway.

The guy who shepherded us through the test had a nightclub bouncer vibea bout him too but I think it's the arms folded pose (so as not to be randomly touching things) that does it. He actually said his main job was as a careworker.


The school I work in is doing quite well it seems though it's outside London in an area with less cases. We've got a dozen or so teachers isolating and about half of year ten have been sent home. Some teachers are teaching from home by videolink which is impressive to see. The effect of the pandemic on the kids generally is enormous too. There are mass absences due to covid anxiety, some kids insist on wearing masks all day (which is really annoying when thety're answering a question and all I can hear is muffled mumbling) and there's a girl in my form group who refuses to sit at tables with other kids and spends all day stood in corners at least two metres away from everyone.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 7, 2020)

maomao said:


> some kids insist on wearing masks all day (which is really annoying when thety're answering a question and all I can hear is muffled mumbling)



This is what any 15 year old sounds like, with or without a mask.



> and there's a girl in my form group who refuses to sit at tables with other kids and spends all day stood in corners at least two metres away from everyone.



Good on her.


----------



## maomao (Dec 7, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Good on her.


You say that but she's clearly not a happy child.


----------



## nyxx (Dec 7, 2020)

maomao said:


> You say that but she's clearly not a happy child.


Of course she’d be unhappy. It sounds like her idea of what’s safe is completely at odds with what her school is expecting of her so she’s having to go against it. Must be really horrible for her.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 7, 2020)

The school I'm working in is relatively normal. Kids still move between classrooms so science is taught in science labs etc. The timetable is largely unchanged. But this is only possible because it's a small school in the middle of nowhere which has seen just three covid cases since September and no transmission amongst students or staff. This despite the fact that staff, wearing masks, are allowed to actually move among the kids and engage with them and their work. 

 Reports from elsewhere sound like hell on earth. Teachers in some schools are expected to teach two and a half hour lessons, and then spend their breaktimes out in the cold policing students' every movement. No books can be marked, no engagement with individual students is possible. I struggle to see what the point is of kids being in school in those circumstances tbh. And those cicrumstances seem to apply in most schools in the country. Bleak as fuck


----------



## maomao (Dec 7, 2020)

nyxx said:


> Of course she’d be unhappy. It sounds like her idea of what’s safe is completely at odds with what her school is expecting of her so she’s having to go against it. Must be really horrible for her.


I believe she's getting attention from pupil and family services though they're understandably busy and no teacher has demanded she sit down or do anything she doesn't feel comfortable with. The rooms are well ventilated and the form room in particular is a large woodwork room where she could grab a whole workbench to herself. Meanwhile more worryingly the boys at the other end of the room constantly wrestle with each other, forget their masks regularly and have been heard whispering that covid isn't real.


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 7, 2020)

Thora said:


> A temperature of 38 and coughing more than 3 times in 24 hours surely does meet the criteria?


Govt website says temp of 38.5 minimum, and/or persistent cough.

Edit. And/or loss of smell / taste.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 7, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Govt website says temp of 38.5 minimum, and/or persistent cough.


I wouldn't trust my thermometer to be accurate to 0.5°. You definitely did the right thing. 

Good luck, hope you're okay.


----------



## nyxx (Dec 7, 2020)

maomao said:


> I believe she's getting attention from pupil and family services though they're understandably busy and no teacher has demanded she sit down or do anything she doesn't feel comfortable with. The rooms are well ventilated and the form room in particular is a large woodwork room where she could grab a whole workbench to herself. Meanwhile more worryingly the boys at the other end of the room constantly wrestle with each other, forget their masks regularly and have been heard whispering that covid isn't real.


Yikes


----------



## Thora (Dec 7, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Govt website says temp of 38.5 minimum, and/or persistent cough.
> 
> Edit. And/or loss of smell / taste.


I haven't seen 38.5 anywhere - initially I think it stated 37.8 but a few months ago changed to just raised temperature/hot to the touch.
A persistent/continuous cough is coughing a lot for an hour, or three episodes of coughing in 24 hours eg basically any cough.





						Get a PCR test to check if you have coronavirus (COVID-19)
					

Find out where to get a test to check if you have coronavirus (COVID-19).




					www.gov.uk
				











						Symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19)
					

Find out about the main symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19) and what to do if you or your child has them.




					www.nhs.uk


----------



## nagapie (Dec 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The school I'm working in is relatively normal. Kids still move between classrooms so science is taught in science labs etc. The timetable is largely unchanged. But this is only possible because it's a small school in the middle of nowhere which has seen just three covid cases since September and no transmission amongst students or staff. This despite the fact that staff, wearing masks, are allowed to actually move among the kids and engage with them and their work.
> 
> Reports from elsewhere sound like hell on earth. Teachers in some schools are expected to teach two and a half hour lessons, and then spend their breaktimes out in the cold policing students' every movement. No books can be marked, no engagement with individual students is possible. I struggle to see what the point is of kids being in school in those circumstances tbh. And those cicrumstances seem to apply in most schools in the country. Bleak as fuck


None of the three schools I'm connected to are like that. In fact they probably need a few more restrictions and are more like your school. All 3 - where I teach and the two my sons go to- are in London.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 7, 2020)

It was bitterly cold at work today (the doors are kept open all day) and still there were teachers giving kids shit for wearing official school hoodies under their blazers, which covid-era school policy says they're allowed to do. You've got to be some kind of weirdo to give a shit about school uniforms at a time like this. But then tbf you've got to be some kind of weirdo to give a shit about school uniforms at any time.


----------



## maomao (Dec 7, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It was bitterly cold at work today (the doors are kept open all day) and still there were teachers giving kids shit for wearing official school hoodies under their blazers, which covid-era school policy says they're allowed to do. You've got to be some kind of weirdo to give a shit about school uniforms at a time like this. But then tbf you've got to be some kimd of weirdo to give a shit about school uniforms at any time.


All the kids at my school wear coats or hoodies as the windows are open. It feels so much better than having them all dressed identically and you can tell they feel more comfortable. I've been told not to let them have their hoods up in class but as long as they're not doing it to hide the fact they're sleeping I don't really mnd.


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 7, 2020)

Thora said:


> I haven't seen 38.5 anywhere - initially I think it stated 37.8 but a few months ago changed to just raised temperature/hot to the touch.
> A persistent/continuous cough is coughing a lot for an hour, or three episodes of coughing in 24 hours eg basically any cough.
> 
> 
> ...


You’re right! I misremembered the 37.8 thing from last time I was under the weather.  And then I guess I imposed that on what I read today (because I had a rotten headache).  Although at that time I hadn’t taken my temperature anyway.  

So I guess I was entitled to a test after all.


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 7, 2020)

Spandex said:


> I wouldn't trust my thermometer to be accurate to 0.5°. You definitely did the right thing.
> 
> Good luck, hope you're okay.


Thanks. It’s an old school Mercury one.  I think they’re pretty accurate.


----------



## oryx (Dec 14, 2020)

Greenwich closing its schools from Monday (apart from keyworkers' children and those with special needs.









						Greenwich to close all schools from Monday night amid alarming Covid outbreak
					

Greenwich will order all schools to close from Monday evening (December 14) due to an escalating Covid-19 outbreak in the borough.




					www.newsshopper.co.uk


----------



## Mation (Dec 14, 2020)

oryx said:


> Greenwich closing its schools from Monday (apart from keyworkers' children and those with special needs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sad in disagreement, but at the sorry situation


----------



## Jay Park (Dec 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It was bitterly cold at work today (the doors are kept open all day) and still there were teachers giving kids shit for wearing official school hoodies under their blazers, which covid-era school policy says they're allowed to do. You've got to be some kind of weirdo to give a shit about school uniforms at a time like this. But then tbf you've got to be some kind of weirdo to give a shit about school uniforms at any time.


 
What about the argument that it cuts a lot of crap out regarding the wealthier (or in my case indebted) parents and their kids not being able to stand out and use their clothing as another way to ostracise, and bully?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 14, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> What about the argument that it cuts a lot of crap out regarding the wealthier (or in my case indebted) parents and their kids not being able to stand out and use their clothing as another way to ostracise, and bully?



we have had this on other threads, but to summarise

a - an expensive uniform that's only available from selected suppliers, and changing something every now and then is one way schools try to weed out kids from poorer families going to their school in the first place

b - kids can still tell whether someone's wearing an 'official' blazer or a cheap one with the badge sewn in or a tatty second hand one, or whether they are wearing last year's trousers that are now a bit too short and have been mended too often, and they can also notice the things that are non-uniform like shoes, bags, pens, whether you've had a smart haircut or something crap done by your mum and all the rest of it.

IF everything was issued free, replaced without argument when it was worn out / grown out of, then maybe i'd agree with it...


----------



## Jay Park (Dec 14, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> we have had this on other threads, but to summarise
> 
> a - an expensive uniform that's only available from selected suppliers, and changing something every now and then is one way schools try to weed out kids from poorer families going to their school in the first place
> 
> ...



so it’s another stealth tax on the working class then?

thanks for taking the time to clear that up.

though remembering own clothes days, it was purely an opportunity for kids to show off their besties. I got fucking hammered for wearing a Goofy tracksuit in year 4, admittedly this in Lower Broughton and at the time the 5th most impoverished borough in England (the irony). And we weren’t wearing these expensive blazers either, just 20 quid Sweater and Polo combos and dark trousers. Though I see the school has now switched from supplying their own uniforms to a specialist supplier.





__





						St Sebastian's RC Primary Archives - Whittakers School Wear
					






					www.whittakersschoolwear.co.uk


----------



## Jay Park (Dec 14, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> we have had this on other threads, but to summarise
> 
> a - an expensive uniform that's only available from selected suppliers, and changing something every now and then is one way schools try to weed out kids from poorer families going to their school in the first place
> 
> ...



as for b. Kids are gonna be nasty about whatever they can sink their teeth into, adults too


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> What about the argument that it cuts a lot of crap out regarding the wealthier (or in my case indebted) parents and their kids not being able to stand out and use their clothing as another way to ostracise, and bully?



My experience is that uniforms are an excuse for adults to 'legitimately' ostracise and bully kids, particularly kids from poorer families.

Kids getting singled out for uniform infractions during covid, when the whole place is freezing fucking cold and the uniform is not fit for purpose, is unconscionsable IMO. I know a lot of my colleagues agree with me but it's the senior people who are the worst for it so what can you do.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 14, 2020)

'We're down to two maths teachers. The head of maths is almost in tears': diary of a headteacher’s week
					

A week before the Christmas break, the head of a school in England is running on empty




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Dec 15, 2020)




----------



## maomao (Dec 15, 2020)

Gavin Williamson is such a piece of shit.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> 'We're down to two maths teachers. The head of maths is almost in tears': diary of a headteacher’s week
> 
> 
> A week before the Christmas break, the head of a school in England is running on empty
> ...


Urgh. That's too close for comfort. i'm so glad I don't have  to manage anything more  than what I already have to.


----------



## maomao (Dec 15, 2020)

Back in school today. Years 7 and 8 working from home. Year 13 isolating. Over 100 students from other year groups isolating and attendance among remaining students down to around 50%. I've seen more teachers than kids today.


----------



## chilango (Dec 15, 2020)

The DfE are placing ads on Twitter begging people to keep sending their kids in till the end of term.


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## miss direct (Dec 15, 2020)

Do any teachers wear masks, or is it a case of whipping them on and off all day?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Do any teachers wear masks, or is it a case of whipping them on and off all day?



I wear a mask when near kids in class or in when corridors etc. This is what official policy says we should do. But the only place we have to eat or drink is the tiny department office which often has six or seven people in it, so realisitically if anyone in our department got sick all of us should be confined to quarters. What the actual rule is I couldn't tell you, it's somewhere in a 30 page risk assessment apparently written by someone who has never been to a school before.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Do any teachers wear masks, or is it a case of whipping them on and off all day?


I do (FE)
I try to keep it on at all times. I take it off to have lunch in our department's office but it goes back on when i'm just in there on the computer.
Others put it on in the corridor  but have it off in the office and/or classroom.
Some also opt for the face shield but not mask.


----------



## maomao (Dec 15, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Do any teachers wear masks, or is it a case of whipping them on and off all day?


I only wear it in communal areas. The excuse is that my school is a resource base for hearing impaired students and students need to be able to lipread but in reality half my classes don't have deaf kids in them.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2020)

A few weeks into term I pulled my mask down for a second to drink some water and one of the students said "wow that's the first time i've seen your face"


----------



## miss direct (Dec 15, 2020)

Thank you. I start a job in a school in the New Year. I've been volunteering this year and always wear a mask but don't know about the new school. I will wear it, but am wondering if they will be weird about it.


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## oryx (Dec 15, 2020)

I didn't think my contempt for the government could get much deeper, but the direction to LB Greenwich to keep their schools open or face legal action has just ramped it down a notch.

It's not just utter folly in the case of a rapidly spreading pandemic, it also shows no regard for local knowledge or local autonomy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> I only wear it in communal areas. The excuse is that my school is a resource base for hearing impaired students and students need to be able to lipread but in reality half my classes don't have deaf kids in them.



Most staff at my school have clear visors. I was encouraged to get one, as we also have kids who lipread. I wear a visor in class, a mask in corridors.


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## Thora (Dec 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Most staff at my school have clear visors. I was encouraged to get one, as we also have kids who lipread. I wear a visor in class, a mask in corridors.


I don't think there is any point to a visor without a mask.  It just stops anyone spitting in your eyes.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Thank you. I start a job in a school in the New Year. I've been volunteering this year and always wear a mask but don't know about the new school. I will wear it, but am wondering if they will be weird about it.


Good luck

I hope the place will be sensible. 
The only good reason I could think of having a policy against it would be for those who rely on lip reading or other visual clues for communication  but  I would hope you could use something like speech to text on the projector for that.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2020)

Thora said:


> I don't think there is any point to a visor without a mask.  It just stops anyone spitting in your eyes.


That's my thought on that as well.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2020)

Thora said:


> I don't think there is any point to a visor without a mask.  It just stops anyone spitting in your eyes.



When you see the amount of spittle you have to wipe off the inside of it between classes you can see it's doing something. But it almost certainly doesn't provide me any protection from anything.

I have a visor with glasses-type frames. I also wear glasses. And I teach chemistry, which requires goggles. There is a non-sustainable amount of stuff balanced on my nose much of the time.


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## planetgeli (Dec 15, 2020)

Keep the schools open in this crucial last week of term! There are videos to be watched and Christmas cards to be made!




miss direct said:


> Do any teachers wear masks, or is it a case of whipping them on and off all day?




I'm WFH now but when I was in school I wore one all the time. It became policy in Wales a few weeks ago to do so in all communal areas, corridors etc. And yet still some staff don't/won't. Pissed me off (the not wearing ones). Glad to be out of there.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 15, 2020)

A quick look online suggests that early predictions thought that  the virus  wouldn't remain airborne for any great length of time so a face shield  would help.
Not so much of that now.


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## maomao (Dec 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Most staff at my school have clear visors. I was encouraged to get one, as we also have kids who lipread. I wear a visor in class, a mask in corridors.


I think the jury's out on whether visors do any good or not.

Sorry wrote this before reading the dozen posts on the subject above.


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## spanglechick (Dec 15, 2020)

I don’t wear a mask as drama classrooms are noisy bastard places and the kids couldn’t understand me and wanted to get really close.  When the whole class is quiet I am also able to distance anyway.  

I guess if you reach a desk-based, quiet subject you could be understood with a mask on.  

Our offices have maximum occupancy rules now.  Normally nine of us share an office with six desks in (not hot desking. Just cosying up.  We now have a maximum of four, if we don’t use the middle desk on each side, or  if someone does use that desk it’s fewer because we can’t use the desks on either side.  

Staff have set up exam desks in the corridor to eat their lunch/ work on a laptop.  We can do this without too much annoying passing traffic because our office is (a)in the sixth form location bubble and (b) on the top floor of the school, so we don’t get anyone “just passing”. 

It’s shit though.  Even those teachers who normally have their own teaching room (not really possible in the performing arts) don’t have that luxury this year because of the location bubbles.   There’s nowhere you can just put your handbag/lunch/coat and leave yourself logged in for the day.


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## Indeliblelink (Dec 16, 2020)

Government considering delay to the start of next term.




__





						New Magazine Experience
					






					www.tes.com


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## nagapie (Dec 16, 2020)

Indeliblelink said:


> Government considering delay to the start of next term.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a load of bollocks. So they wouldn't close schools now when they're on their knees, then they're going to do nothing to stop the increase of cases, then add to the cases by having free rein over Christmas and then they're going to close schools. Wtf. And primary schools are also on their knees at the moment, between my two boys, we've had someone at home isolating every week for the last 6.


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## Aladdin (Dec 16, 2020)

Hope you're feeling better spanglechick ?


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## spanglechick (Dec 16, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Hope you're feeling better spanglechick ?


More well than ill today! It feels like a tipping point.


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## Aladdin (Dec 16, 2020)

nagapie said:


> What a load of bollocks. So they wouldn't close schools now when they're on their knees, then they're going to do nothing to stop the increase of cases, then add to the cases by having free rein over Christmas and then they're going to close schools. Wtf. And primary schools are also on their knees at the moment, between my two boys, we've had someone at home isolating every week for the last 6.




Same over here. 
A principal and board of management of a small country school decided to close after 10% of students were diagnosed with covid and numbers of staff...including the teaching principal. The school has 125 pupils shared between 4 classrooms.  No substitute teachers wanted to work there because the incidence of covid in the community and school were high. So the school board decided for health and safety reasons to close early for Christmas. 
The Dept of Ed instructed them to reopen on Monday. Only 7 pupils are attending now and the principal has stated that he is considering his position. 

It looks like come hell or high water they want schools to remain open 😳


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## StoneRoad (Dec 16, 2020)

I'm beginning to wonder if our local spike in cases started out in the local secondary school, just about after the half term break.

The timing and spread of cases in the area seems to fit.
Some examples I've been told about ...
Manager of a neighbouring company to where I work has just been confirmed as having caught covid off his kids, who brought it back from that particular school.
Plus a staff member at a local take-away and her two kids have it - the older kid goes to that same school and showed symptoms first (by nearly a week compared to mum and the younger kid, who came out almost together, whilst isolating).

The largest local employer has several staff off with covid, most of whom have kids at the school in question (although some of the people who work there apparently went to Spain on holiday so this is probably a chicken and the egg question).


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## elbows (Dec 16, 2020)

StoneRoad said:


> The largest local employer has several staff off with covid, most of whom have kids at the school in question (although some of the people who work there apparently went to Spain on holiday so this is probably a chicken and the egg question).



Yes I tend not to be looking for single sources of outbreak, and rather think about it in terms of settings that amplify and further spread infection in the area, and all sorts of feedback loops. Its just the same when I consider hospital infections - these things often serve as the visible tip of the iceberg, and outbreaks in such settings are almost inevitable once levels of virus in the community at large have reached a certain size. These institutional clusters of cases more easily come to the attention of authorities, but also involve places that can increase infection numbers and then those people go back into the local community, perpetuating and expanding cycles of infection.

Also pictures that are painted by authorities, often involving by data this is analysed and released once a week, that show particular settings and age groups suffering big increases in cases in a particular place, usually invite an out of date picture before the paint is even dry. Things have usually moved on since then, and we end up perpetually focussing one step behind.


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## nagapie (Dec 16, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> Same over here.
> A principal and board of management of a small country school decided to close after 10% of students were diagnosed with covid and numbers of staff...including the teaching principal. The school has 125 pupils shared between 4 classrooms.  No substitute teachers wanted to work there because the incidence of covid in the community and school were high. So the school board decided for health and safety reasons to close early for Christmas.
> The Dept of Ed instructed them to reopen on Monday. Only 7 pupils are attending now and the principal has stated that he is considering his position.
> 
> It looks like come hell or high water they want schools to remain open 😳


I want schools open but I want the government to tighten up everything else to allow this to happen. 
And if you're going to lose a week, the last few days before Christmas seems like a good choice. But more than that, schools where I am are literally just folding right now due to so many positives.


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## elbows (Dec 17, 2020)

elbows said:


> Yes I tend not to be looking for single sources of outbreak, and rather think about it in terms of settings that amplify and further spread infection in the area, and all sorts of feedback loops. Its just the same when I consider hospital infections - these things often serve as the visible tip of the iceberg, and outbreaks in such settings are almost inevitable once levels of virus in the community at large have reached a certain size. These institutional clusters of cases more easily come to the attention of authorities, but also involve places that can increase infection numbers and then those people go back into the local community, perpetuating and expanding cycles of infection.



Ah here we are, right on time:









						Covid cases in schools 'reflect community levels'
					

Pupils and staff have infection rates which mirror rates outside the school gates, a study found.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## trashpony (Dec 17, 2020)

We have grammar schools in Kent which means kids come from a much bigger catchment area to the grammars than they do the comps. Most people I know with several secondary aged kids have kids in more than one school. It's not really surprising that infection rates are so high here


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2020)

Looks like English schools will start up again as scheduled in January but with some years possibly starting later than others. It's real back-of-an-envelope stuff as always.


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## MickiQ (Dec 17, 2020)

Mrs Q has been headhunted by a recruitment agency, it looks like there is a growing demand for teachers (especially STEM which are always in short supply)  to teach online classes as some schools move online. Some wide boy has seen the opportunity to make money by trying to headhunt teachers from some schools to teach other schools online.


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## Aladdin (Dec 17, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Mrs Q has been headhunted by a recruitment agency, it looks like there is a growing demand for teachers (especially STEM which are always in short supply)  to teach online classes as some schools move online. Some wide boy has seen the opportunity to make money by trying to headhunt teachers from some schools to teach other schools online.




I'm workinf from home and trying to upskill staff on teaching online.  
It's not easy cos there is some resistance.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 17, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Looks like English schools will start up again as scheduled in January but with some years possibly starting later than others. It's real back-of-an-envelope stuff as always.



It's allegedly so that they can set up and train up staff (who?) to administer CV19 tests.  My headteacher was delighted to receive that announcement about an hour before our whole-school farewell/thank you zoom meeting.  I really do despise this stupid government who seem incapable of having the courage to make the right decisions at the right time - too busy writing stupid, threatening letters to schools folding under the pressure of the huge rise in CV19 cases right now.  I feel awful for him and the rest of our senior leadership.









						Details of school mass-testing rollout revealed
					

Handbook issued to schools reveals extent of schools' responsibilities from January




					schoolsweek.co.uk
				




Both my kids are now home self-isolating now.


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## Red Cat (Dec 17, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> It's allegedly so that they can set up and train up staff (who?) to administer CV19 tests.  My headteacher was delighted to receive that announcement about an hour before our whole-school farewell/thank you zoom meeting.  I really do despise this stupid government who seem incapable of having the courage to make the right decisions at the right time - too busy writing stupid, threatening letters to schools folding under the pressure of the huge rise in CV19 cases right now.  I feel awful for him and the rest of our senior leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's right gaijingirl. It's not actually their general incompetence or right wing fuckery that annoys me most, it's their cowardice that gives me the rage.Their cowardice that leaves other people to face the potential angry backlash and worse consequences. I'm more angry about this than I have been for a while.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> It's allegedly so that they can set up and train up staff (who?) to administer CV19 tests.  My headteacher was delighted to receive that announcement about an hour before our whole-school farewell/thank you zoom meeting.  I really do despise this stupid government who seem incapable of having the courage to make the right decisions at the right time - too busy writing stupid, threatening letters to schools folding under the pressure of the huge rise in CV19 cases right now.  I feel awful for him and the rest of our senior leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, 'what fucking staff' is the key question. Whoever they are, good luck getting all of them DBS cleared by Janauary 4th...


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## gaijingirl (Dec 17, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah, 'what fucking staff' is the key question. Whoever they are, good luck getting all of them DBS cleared by Janauary 4th...



Well they got the army to do it in recent trials up north.  Some people are worried it will be TAs.  Who knows frankly.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Well they got the army to do it in recent trials up north.  Some people are worried it will be TAs.  Who knows frankly.



Teaching assistants or Territorial Army?

Because there aren't enough teaching assistants to do the work they've already got


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## gaijingirl (Dec 17, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Teaching assistants or Territorial Army?
> 
> Because there aren't enough teaching assistants to do the work they've already got



Teaching Assistants.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> Teaching Assistants.



Fuck's sake


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2020)

Now staff who should be within reach of a much-needed break face spending christmas rushing about trying to sort out this latest half-arsed, nonsensical bullshit from the government. Union phone lines must be busy.


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 17, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Fuck's sake



I don't think anyone knows for sure what will happen but there's a lot of anger and worry on various union and teaching forums.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 17, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Now staff who should be within reach of a much-needed break face spending christmas rushing about trying to sort out this latest half-arsed, nonsensical bullshit from the government. Union phone lines must be busy.



Exactly.  The unions themselves are coming in for flack for not being stronger in the face of all this from the start.


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## StoneRoad (Dec 17, 2020)

My OH taught physics, but took early retirement during budget-driven "re-organisations" and conversion into an academy (third session of at least five that I know of, in a period of three years or so). Also having a major re-build of the school buildings (I think some were CLASP derived).
And then spent some time on supply & EOTAS work.

Just now - to a 'phone head-hunter - There is no way I'm going back to teaching, no matter how much £££ you offer. 

OH & I both think secondary schools are now acting as super-spreaders and are places to stay well away from.


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## May Kasahara (Dec 17, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> It's allegedly so that they can set up and train up staff (who?) to administer CV19 tests.  My headteacher was delighted to receive that announcement about an hour before our whole-school farewell/thank you zoom meeting.  I really do despise this stupid government who seem incapable of having the courage to make the right decisions at the right time - too busy writing stupid, threatening letters to schools folding under the pressure of the huge rise in CV19 cases right now.  I feel awful for him and the rest of our senior leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wholeheartedly endorse this post. My poor colleagues. For fuck's fucking sake. And poor all of you on this thread too


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## Mattym (Dec 17, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I want schools open but I want the government to tighten up everything else to allow this to happen.



Exactly that!


----------



## elbows (Dec 17, 2020)

The government guidance is here if anyone wants to get more annoyed by this shit.









						Schools and childcare settings: return in January 2021
					






					www.gov.uk
				




There is too much to quote every area so I just picked on one theme.



> *Testing workforce requirements*
> Schools and educational trusts, supported by local authorities, will need to provide a small team to support the work. We recommend that this includes 1 to 2 members of staff with others being either volunteers (for example governors) or agency staff brought in for this purpose. Reasonable workforce costs of state-funded schools will be reimbursed. Armed forces personnel will support directly through planning with schools and colleges.





> Over Christmas schools’ responsibilities for contact tracing end on 23 December, meaning teachers should be able to get the break that they deserve before resuming work in the new term. Schools that wish to can use an extra INSET day on 4 January to prepare to deliver the testing.
> 
> More detailed operational guidance will be issued shortly.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 17, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> I'm workinf from home and trying to upskill staff on teaching online.
> 
> It's not easy cos there is some resistance.


Mrs Q has plenty of experience in teaching online, she did a lot of it last term when her school closed in Lockdown 1 along with all the others.  There aren't enough STEM teachers to go round as it is, a lot of schools can't recruit enough so a lot just stick a warm body in front of a classroom and hope for the best. Getting the Geography Teacher to teach Maths is a pain when he's stood in front of them, when they're online its even harder.
These spivs (sorry entrepeneurs) that phoned her think they've found a niche in the market by offering to supply suitably qualified teachers to schools to do their online teaching (for a premium naturally) but for that they of course need actual teachers working for them.
Mrs Q reckons that the idea of using teachers in India to do online tutoring has been floated by some in authority but she thinks this idea is hysterical and that not many kids will listen to someone they can't even understand properly.
The guy also told her they reckon there will be big money to be made in private one to one tutoring next year as those who can afford it are willing to splash out to help their kids to make up for the disruption.
Wasting his time with Mrs Q though she has used the dreaded R word twice in the past week or two. She's 58 now and much though she loves being a teacher, I think the lurgy is the final straw for a great many like her.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 17, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> It's allegedly so that they can set up and train up staff (who?) to administer CV19 tests.  My headteacher was delighted to receive that announcement about an hour before our whole-school farewell/thank you zoom meeting.  I really do despise this stupid government who seem incapable of having the courage to make the right decisions at the right time - too busy writing stupid, threatening letters to schools folding under the pressure of the huge rise in CV19 cases right now.  I feel awful for him and the rest of our senior leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading about the Lateral Flow device testing that will be used.


> *7. Lateral flow tests ‘work’*
> Concerns have been raised about the tests after research found that they can miss Covid-19 cases.
> 
> In its handbook for schools, the government accepted the tests have a lower sensitivity, but said they were “better at picking up cases when a person has a higher viral load. Hence the need to test frequently”.
> ...



having a look at the link mentioned there








						Covid-19: Safety of lateral flow tests questioned after they are found to miss half of cases
					

The lateral flow devices used in the community testing pilot in Liverpool only picked up half the covid-19 cases detected by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests and missed three out of 10 cases with higher viral loads, according to the government’s own policy paper.1  Given the low sensitivity...




					www.bmj.com
				






> The lateral flow devices used in the community testing pilot in Liverpool only picked up half the covid-19 cases detected by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests and missed three out of 10 cases with higher viral loads, according to the government’s own policy paper.1
> 
> Given the low sensitivity of the Innova lateral flow devices when used in the field, experts are questioning how they can be used to allow care home residents to have contact with relatives over Christmas safely or for students to know for certain that they are not infected before returning home.



Sounds to me that they're brushing over the fact these tests don't give very good results.
Better than no testing at all though.


----------



## May Kasahara (Dec 18, 2020)

elbows said:


> The government guidance is here if anyone wants to get more annoyed by this shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"the break they deserve", this makes it utterly clear what the government thinks they deserve  Absolute fucking cunts, and spineless cunts at that.


----------



## spitfire (Dec 20, 2020)

"Dear 3K parents. Positive Covid case in 3K. All 3K pupils must self-isolate until 25th Dec. Email guidance has been sent.

The School."

Just received the above from Mini Fire's school. I thought self isolation is 10-14 days but they're saying 5 days?

No understand.


----------



## LDC (Dec 20, 2020)

spitfire said:


> "Dear 3K parents. Positive Covid case in 3K. All 3K pupils must self-isolate until 25th Dec. Email guidance has been sent.
> 
> The School."
> 
> ...



It'll be 10 days from contact with the +tive case. So maybe they were last in school with other kids on 15th? Same as some people getting app or T&T notifications to isolate for less than ten days (someone on here got 1 day iirc).


----------



## spitfire (Dec 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It'll be 10 days from contact with the +tive case. So maybe they were last in school with other kids on 15th?



Thank you for confirming it is 10 days. That makes sense as I have just interrogated the nipper and one of the kids went home on Wednesday. Couple of days sick, then a 24 hour test and that timeline make sense.

Cheers LynnDoyleCooper


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 21, 2020)

Interesting but worrying twitter thread about results from testing efficiency of tests used on Birmingham and Scottish Uni students at start of December.


ETA -








						Covid tests used on students ahead of Christmas 'only detected three per cent of cases'
					

The lateral flow tests missed students with Covid and gave them a negative result




					thetab.com
				




ETA








						Plans for 30-minute Covid testing in England halted amid accuracy fears
					

Exclusive: government shelves Christmas rollout of lateral flow test centres




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Dec 28, 2020)

Some vague media leaks about schools reopening but staggered returns for different ages


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 28, 2020)

Yeah like many people I'm due back at work on Monday with no fucking clue what's happening and the prospect of being sent home again for another week. Sounds great, except I'm a trainee teacher who needs to do x amount of stuff with real classes to get my QTS


----------



## Cloo (Dec 28, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Some vague media leaks about schools reopening but staggered returns for different ages


They'll have to give up on it within a few weeks if they do, thus extending the time in which everything is in a fucking mess.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 29, 2020)

Still nothing from the DfE on what happens next week. I can only imagine how many parents, teachers and other school staff are tearing their hair out at this point.

My guess is they'll go with a 'staggered return' and only year 10/11 returning to school, only to abandon that as well within the first week of term. Maybe for exams it seems most important to get older kids back in school, but most 14-15 year olds can look after themselves at home if necessary. The social need to be in school is greater for younger kids IMO.

 It's unforgivable that they haven't called off the 2021 exams already, while there's still time to put together a halfway coherent alternative, and before schools and students waste even greater resources than they have already.


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## weepiper (Dec 29, 2020)

This is wild, I can't believe they're still behaving as if the kids can all go back like normal at the start of term. They told us before Christmas that in light of this new variant ours would have an extra week of holiday and then * at least * a week of remote learning so not back in classrooms until the 18th of Jan at the earliest. Most people here are assuming the kids will be out of school for a good while after that.


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## Mattym (Dec 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's unforgivable that they haven't called off the 2021 exams already, while there's still time to put together a halfway coherent alternative, and before schools and students waste even greater resources than they have already.



Definitely and it'll be one of those decisions which will be made in the final week of April (if they do it).


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

It's scarcely credible in the face of Independent Sage recommendations/advice and statements/pleas from Teaching unions to delay the return of schools they're pressing on anyway, and calling in the army to do tests of kids. Utterly poisonous


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 29, 2020)

Today’s Daily Heil front page?

“Don’t Betray Our Children - fury as schools poised to shut until February”

 

Covid has turned some people into members of a fucking death cult.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

As someone on here said - this is the hill the Tories have chosen other people to die on


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

Children of Daily Mail readers have already grown up and left their hateful parents.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

I thought the plan was already in place, primaries opening, secondaries taking only year 11 and 13 for at least a week. Our parents were informed of the secondary arrangements at the start of the holidays.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I thought the plan was already in place, primaries opening, secondaries taking only year 11 and 13 for at least a week. Our parents were informed of the secondary arrangements at the start of the holidays.


Yeah, but since then Indy Sage has said it's a crazy idea and teaching unions have said there's no time to get ready for the whole load of extra stuff the twats in charge expect teaching and support staff to do.

And presumably the Fail has heard someone in government considering the idea of closing everything for January.


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

Wasn’t it actual Sage, not Independent Sage, that said schools shouldn’t reopen yet?  Obviously I’m sure the independent one are saying it too.


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I thought the plan was already in place, primaries opening, secondaries taking only year 11 and 13 for at least a week. Our parents were informed of the secondary arrangements at the start of the holidays.


Yep, that’s the current plan - ministers keep publicly saying they absolutely, currently hope that will happen, while all the newspapers are running stories about internal battles and ‘sources’ saying schools will remain shut.

So I predict we will find out what will actually happen on the 30th/31st.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> Yep, that’s the current plan - ministers keep publicly saying they absolutely, currently hope that will happen, while all the newspapers are running stories about internal battles and ‘sources’ saying schools will remain shut.
> 
> So I predict we will find out what will actually happen on the 30th/31st.


That would ace. It'll actually be Jan 3rd though


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 29, 2020)

23.59 on January 3rd, via Twitter.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Yeah, but since then Indy Sage has said it's a crazy idea and teaching unions have said there's no time to get ready for the whole load of extra stuff the twats in charge expect teaching and support staff to do.
> 
> And presumably the Fail has heard someone in government considering the idea of closing everything for January.


I thought Sage were still saying to keep primaries open. And with only 11sand 13s coming in, gov could argue they're following the advice.
I'm a lifetime teaching union member but they have no power here. My head has already organised the tests and informed parents.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> Yep, that’s the current plan - ministers keep publicly saying they absolutely, currently hope that will happen, while all the newspapers are running stories about internal battles and ‘sources’ saying schools will remain shut.
> 
> So I predict we will find out what will actually happen on the 30th/31st.


I'm sure it will be what I said.


----------



## purenarcotic (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I thought Sage were still saying to keep primaries open. And with only 11sand 13s coming in, gov could argue they're following the advice.
> I'm a lifetime teaching union member but they have no power here. My head has already organised the vaccines and informed parents.



Organised what vaccines? I wasn’t aware they were now being offered to school staff? 😕


----------



## Mattym (Dec 29, 2020)

S☼I said:


> It's scarcely credible in the face of Independent Sage recommendations/advice and statements/pleas from Teaching unions to delay the return of schools they're pressing on anyway, and calling in the army to do tests of kids. Utterly poisonous



I was delighted to finally see my union (or the regional branch) finally make some sort of Facebook post yesterday as to what sort of safety measures need to be put in place, which included vaccines for staff. Now I realise that there are higher priorities than teachers, but the union had previously said 'We back the need for teachers to have the vaccination'. Their lethargy made me very cross.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

UK government scientists tell Boris Johnson to close schools in January
					

Concern rises about new strains of coronavirus in the UK.




					www.google.com


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I thought Sage were still saying to keep primaries open. And with only 11sand 13s coming in, gov could argue they're following the advice.
> I'm a lifetime teaching union member but they have no power here. My head has already organised the vaccines and informed parents.


Do you mean "tests" rather than "vaccines"?


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I'm sure it will be what I said.


I don’t have that much faith in Boris.  Once all the papers are running stories they’re trying to soften us up for the u turn.  I reckon it will fall somewhere in between the 4th January plan and the worst case scenario stories about Feb half term - probably in line with Scotland’s plans.


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## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Do you mean "tests" rather than "vaccines"?


Oops, yes, sorry.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> Organised what vaccines? I wasn’t aware they were now being offered to school staff? 😕


Sorry, wrote the wrong word, now edited to tests.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> I don’t have that much faith in Boris.  Once all the papers are running stories they’re trying to soften us up for the u turn.  I reckon it will fall somewhere in between the 4th January plan and the worst case scenario stories about Feb half term - probably in line with Scotland’s plans.


There's still a lot of pressure to keep schools open.


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

The big problem will be if they shut schools, it will be difficult to open them again.
Numbers are so out of control at the moment - it took weeks of lockdown with schools closed to get it under control in April.
If they delay schools opening for 2 weeks or a month, will they be able to reopen them if deaths are still going up?


----------



## clicker (Dec 29, 2020)

Admittedly it was a couple of weeks ago, but yes, I thought the carrot being dangled was that teachers spend their first week of term learning how to covid test pupils. And it was that which would make reopening schools safe. It seemed ambitious then and haven't heard mention of it since.

Just like they wouldn't reopen schools in September, without half attendance in school, reduced class sizes etc...again, that didn't happen but they opened regardless.

It didn't work in September. It won't now. Hoping for a u turn.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

clicker said:


> Admittedly it was a couple of weeks ago, but yes, I thought the carrot being dangled was that teachers spend their first week of term learning how to covid test pupils. And it was that which would make reopening schools safe. It seemed ambitious then and haven't heard mention of it since.
> 
> Just like they wouldn't reopen schools in September, without half attendance in school, reduced class sizes etc...again, that didn't happen but they opened regardless.
> 
> It didn't work in September. It won't now. Hoping for a u turn.


The first bit of that is happening. My secondary is setting up testing for the first week. Not sure who's doing the testing, I've not been asked...yet.


----------



## wtfftw (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> The big problem will be if they shut schools, it will be difficult to open them again.
> Numbers are so out of control at the moment - it took weeks of lockdown with schools closed to get it under control in April.
> If they delay schools opening for 2 weeks or a month, will they be able to reopen them if deaths are still going up?


I dunno. They stuck to the reopening schedule in summer and the November lockdown was a set time.


----------



## clicker (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> The first bit of that is happening. My secondary is setting up testing for the first week. Not sure who's doing the testing, I've not been asked...yet.


That does seem a really sensible thing to do in theory. I wonder how it'll be sold to those doing the testing. A voluntary or compulsory part of their job? You'd hope they'd then at least be offered a vaccine sooner than the current list indicates.


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> I dunno. They stuck to the reopening schedule in summer and the November lockdown was a set time.


They didn’t close schools in November though (and cases were pretty low in the summer). I think it would be hard to reopen schools of case numbers are climbing.
The March school closures quickly went from a couple of weeks around Easter holidays to 6 months.


----------



## wtfftw (Dec 29, 2020)

clicker said:


> That does seem a really sensible thing to do in theory. I wonder how it'll be sold to those doing the testing. A voluntary or compulsory part of their job? You'd hope they'd then at least be offered a vaccine sooner than the current list indicates.


Dunno where I read it but apparently the kids will swab themselves under (presumably distanced) supervision.


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

.


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## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> They didn’t close schools in November though (and cases were pretty low in the summer). I think it would be hard to reopen schools of case numbers are climbing.
> The March school closures quickly went from a couple of weeks around Easter holidays to 6 months.


I honestly just can't imagine the gov shutting schools again like they did in March. They'll just keep it all running in dribs and drabs and pretend it's all ok.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> They didn’t close schools in November though (and cases were pretty low in the summer). I think it would be hard to reopen schools of case numbers are climbing.
> The March school closures quickly went from a couple of weeks around Easter holidays to 6 months.


Well, 3.5 months of school time where schools were closed.


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## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> I dunno. They stuck to the reopening schedule in summer and the November lockdown was a set time.



No, Johnson was originally calling for schools to reopen at the start of June but it soon became clear that wasnt going to happen so they gave up on it.


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## wtfftw (Dec 29, 2020)

I meant other reopening things. They don't wait for the stats before reopening stuff over summer - not properly in a staggered way. 

All I'm saying is that I think they could easily close schools for a set period of time and to hell with whether it does enough. They could easily do whatever really. Or not do anything at all.


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## LDC (Dec 29, 2020)

Any chance of a student and staff strike on safety at work and public health grounds?


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## maomao (Dec 29, 2020)

elbows said:


> No, Johnson was originally calling for schools to reopen at the start of June but it soon became clear that wasn't going to happen so they gave up on it.


They had mostly reopened when he u-turned on that which meant those of us who just wanted to give it an extra week or two to see that local infection levels were genuinely low and dropping before sending our kids in were refused places.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 29, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Any chance of a student and staff strike on safety at work and public health grounds?



I suspect that not telling schools anything until the last minute is only partly down to incompetence, and that not giving unions time to respond to anything may be a feature, not a bug.


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## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> I meant other reopening things. They don't wait for the stats before reopening stuff over summer - not properly in a staggered way.



The summer relaxing of measures was done rather slowly and the stats at the time showed a completely different picture to the one we had when measures were introduced.

If the government were going for a total viral suppression strategy then the relaxations were too soon, but that was never their approach so it wasnt surprising. When not going for the total suppression approach I could even argue that some of their relaxations were a bit late, for example they were so slow to let those with medical conditions out of shielding that I'd say that stuff was slow on both ends, slow to come in and slow to be switched off, and dont even get me started on what they subsequently did with shielding advice.

Other large mistakes included the extent to which they tried to restore the economy via eat out to help out, encouraging city workers back to work, and creating a false impression that the relaxations were sustainable well past the summer. And of course when it came to schools, not listening to SAGE when they old them new restrictions were necessary for the public well before schools reopened, in order to create enough room in the infection picture to give schools a better chance of operating.


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## nagapie (Dec 29, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Any chance of a student and staff strike on safety at work and public health grounds?


Not a chance. Parents and students are divided, many want a return. Teachers would be villified, as usual.


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## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Any chance of a student and staff strike on safety at work and public health grounds?



We are fast approaching the point where I would be calling for a general strike if the government continue to blunder with doomed approaches in badly affected regions.

But I am not typical and most opposition is tame. Here for example are things said in a recent Gurdian article, which does leave some room open for individual action on the basis of unsafe working environment, but where proper strikes are not on the table.



> Teaching unions called for the publication of updated safety guidance in light of the rapid spread of a new variant and moves to give staff priority access to the vaccine.
> 
> “Our worry is that they won’t make the right decision today and do what they have done all the way through the pandemic, which is to take an ideological line and get schools back before the testing programme can be properly put in place,” said Mary Bousted, the joint general secretary of the National Education Union (NEU).
> 
> ...











						England school reopening in doubt with ministers divided
					

Education secretary under pressure to rethink plan for millions of pupils to return




					www.theguardian.com


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## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

And I do expect a u-turn given how strong the warning signs are in hospital data for some regions at the moment.


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## chilango (Dec 29, 2020)

They would love, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is at least mentioned in their discussions, to provoke a teachers' strike.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 29, 2020)

So my school (like nagapie's) also wrote to parents at the start of the holidays with regards to when we would be reopening - reiterating the government's line at that time,  but also added the caveat that they could not confirm details exactly and would not do so until they had firm details from the government and that this may well change.  This also applies to the school testing - so we haven't put concrete plans into place for that yet either (although no doubt there are plans ready to be put into action).  My head is very cautious and he won't jump until he knows exactly what is what.  I am so grateful for that.  He runs our school so well.

The current rumour is that the first week back (next week starting 4 Jan) will be online for all students including years 11+13, with those two year groups going back from the 11th and the rest to follow a week later:









						Exclusive: New school opening delay agreed by ministers
					

Exam year students will see return delayed by at least an extra week if plan worked out yesterday gets Downing Street sign-off, Tes has learned




					www.tes.com


----------



## clicker (Dec 29, 2020)

BBC saying the army are on standby to 'help' with the testing in secondary schools. Just wondering if a school is a good place for false negatives and what are the rate of false negatives.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 29, 2020)

clicker said:


> BBC saying the army are on standby to 'help' with the testing in secondary schools. Just wondering if a school is a good place for false negatives and what are the rate of false negatives.



It's just a bullshit Tory headline.  Last week of school the BBC were reporting this on Newsround.  I showed it to my tutor group on the last week of term with kids up north having army volunteers test them and the story was that all schools would be getting regular testing.  They've been banging on about this for ages.  Maybe a few schools will have some army officers in for photo ops but I suspect like the millions in extra money for tuition and the laptops for all, it's largely spin.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 29, 2020)

Teaching forums are full of links to adverts asking parents to volunteer or things like this:  Make £65 a day testing school kids for coronavirus

There's no unified approach.


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## 20Bees (Dec 29, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> Dunno where I read it but apparently the kids will swab themselves under (presumably distanced) supervision.





clicker said:


> BBC saying the army are on standby to 'help' with the testing in secondary schools. Just wondering if a school is a good place for false negatives and what are the rate of false negatives.





gaijingirl said:


> Teaching forums are full of links to adverts asking parents to volunteer or things like this:  Make £65 a day testing school kids for coronavirus
> 
> There's no unified approach.



Are these various ideas for secondaries only? To have 11 year olds swabbing their own tonsils suggests it may not be especially accurate. It’s not extended to primary schools, is it?


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## Cloo (Dec 29, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I honestly just can't imagine the gov shutting schools again like they did in March. They'll just keep it all running in dribs and drabs and pretend it's all ok.


They're fighting having to do it for all they're worth it seems... it's all such a shitshow and there's no good answers. There are very good, non-trivial reasons parents want their kids in school (parental and child mental health, kids with additional needs, parents' ability to hold down jobs, especially mothers); there are very good, non-trivial reasons kids should be kept out of school for the next 8-12 weeks (lowering transmission, staff safety). I find it sad when some people (not here, pleased to say) are treating others like cunts for wanting one or the other.


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 29, 2020)

20Bees said:


> Are these various ideas for secondaries only? To have 11 year olds swabbing their own tonsils suggests it may not be especially accurate. It’s not extended to primary schools, is it?



Primary schools seem to have been completely forgotten/ignored in all of this.


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 29, 2020)

.


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## Cloo (Dec 29, 2020)

Apparently some new announcement from Hancock about restrictions tomorrow... I expect they'll keep to the same line about schools but it'll probably change before Monday.


----------



## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

Cloo said:


> Apparently some new announcement from Hancock about restrictions tomorrow... I expect they'll keep to the same line about schools but it'll probably change before Monday.



Its the next tier review tomorrow so I think a Hancock performance was inevitable.


----------



## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

This does sound like the sort of thing this government would come up with, and is consistent with the dismal expectations that rumours of recent weeks created.



> Secondary schools in England are unlikely to fully reopen until after mid-January at the earliest, according to new plans being thrashed out within government that would also see school staff be given high priority for Covid vaccinations.
> 
> According to government sources, ministers are torn between heeding its scientific advisers over the rapid spread of the new Covid variant, and warnings from the Department for Education that switching to remote learning for the whole of January would make it hard for schools and colleges to reopen again before Easter, jeopardising next year’s exams.
> 
> ...











						English secondary schools unlikely to fully open until mid-January at earliest
					

Ministers thrash out new plans including staff being given high priority for Covid vaccinations




					www.theguardian.com
				




They arent in the driving seat alone though. How things like the London hospital situation & data evolves over the next week or so will have a big part to play in whether they are able to stick to the above approach or have to change approach again, next time the data makes them shit themselves. I'd say the data has already been more than bad enough for weeks, but with this government the level of resistance at this stage pretty much requires a cataclysmic event before they will budge the full distance.


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 29, 2020)

Cloo said:


> Apparently some new announcement from Hancock about restrictions tomorrow... I expect they'll keep to the same line about schools but it'll probably change before Monday.



I posted above. Exclusive: New school opening delay agreed by ministers


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 29, 2020)

So, yet again, rather than getting ahead of the curve they'll wait until it's too late.

Fucks sake.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 29, 2020)

elbows said:


> This does sound like the sort of thing this government would come up with, and is consistent with the dismal expectations that rumours of recent weeks created.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'There's a flood coming, you need to move back, quickly!'
- my previous plans allow me to move 3 feet when the water gets 6 feet higher, so that should do it'
'Madness, look at the images of the water rising'
- we need to balance saving lives with the expenditure in shoe leather involved in moving to a safe place.
'You're a fucking tory fuckwit aren't you?'
- correct.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 29, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, yet again, rather than getting ahead of the curve they'll wait until it's too late.
> 
> Fucks sake.


Wouldn't be surprised if this already exists, but it would be interesting to see a model where you could load up all of the key decisions made by our government throughout the pandemic.  Using sliders to show the impact on deaths if they had made decision X on day Y instead of what they actually did.  

Anyway, aren't we due another 'eat out to help out'?


----------



## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, yet again, rather than getting ahead of the curve they'll wait until it's too late.
> 
> Fucks sake.



When 'too late' is depends on regions and exactly what situation is trying to be avoided.

I'd say for London and some other places in the South, the time to act strongly on schools was over a month ago, but certainly by early December, and of course this timetable could have been very different if they had done the right things from the start of last term and had done better general lockdowns, longer half-term holidays etc. For places in the North the time to act would have been much earlier still, but London-centric national media bias somewhat distracted from coverage of this at the right times. And with particular local lockdowns school closures were sometimes a feature, eg Leicester Leicester lockdown: Parents and pupils upset at school closures but again this did not really capture the national medias attention in the way things will now that there are big problems down south. They reported on it, but the implications were never really seen as a national thing.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 29, 2020)

elbows said:


> When 'too late' is depends on regions and exactly what situation is trying to be avoided.
> 
> I'd say for London and some other places in the South, the time to act strongly on schools was over a month ago, but certainly by early December, and of course this timetable could have been very different if they had done the right things from the start of last term and had done better general lockdowns, longer half-term holidays etc. For places in the North the time to act would have been much earlier still, but London-centric national media bias somewhat distracted from coverage of this at the right times. And with particular local lockdowns school closures were sometimes a feature, eg Leicester Leicester lockdown: Parents and pupils upset at school closures but again this did not really capture the national medias attention in the way things will now that there are big problems down south. They reported on it, but the implications were never really seen as a national thing.


I think the biggest error has been trying to confine it to local regions. This country isn't that big and people travel all over the place.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 29, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, yet again, rather than getting ahead of the curve they'll wait until it's too late.
> 
> Fucks sake.


It's pathetic, and dangerously incompetent, that they seem to have a 'strategy' of 'Hope things will suddenly improve without us having to do anything else' and then get forced to backtrack to what they should have done several weeks ago.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 29, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I think the biggest error has been trying to confine it to local regions. This country isn't that big and people travel all over the place.


I agree. Regional works to some extent when numbers are low, but is actively dangerous when they are as they are now or even as they were in Autumn. People in low case areas would have been pissed off to see significant restrictions, but it's the job of government to communicate the reasons for the actions they are taking (and most of all to ensure people get full pay if they self isolate). Our government is neither acting nor communicating.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 29, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I agree. Regional works to some extent when numbers are low, but is actively dangerous when they are as they are now or even as they were in Autumn. People in low case areas would have been pissed off to see significant restrictions, but it's the job of government to communicate the reasons for the actions they are taking (and most of all to ensure people get full pay if they self isolate). Our government is neither acting nor communicating.


I think we’re way past the point where people being pissed off should be part of the decision making process...


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 29, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Any chance of a student and staff strike on safety at work and public health grounds?


A few university UCU branches are moving towards this.


----------



## baldrick (Dec 29, 2020)

How do school staff here feel about potentially being asked to be Covid testers in school?

I am avoiding checking my work email as I don't want to spoil my holiday - this is the first break I've had since July.

When I am in school, I am in an 'office bubble' with 5 other members of staff, no one else comes in apart from SLT. I am very reluctant to participate in testing, to be honest. Which I feel quite bad about as I obviously work with a whole bunch of teachers who are in classrooms with 30 kids all day. I don't feel I can rely on the DfE to provide anything like an adequate amount of training, support, PPE. I have been really careful with my contacts because staff I share an office with have vulnerable family members they support, I've only met two people indoors since the summer, everything else social I do is outside. If I'm asked to do testing (it is if at the moment, I don't know what the plan is currently) I don't know how I can say no really. But I would feel like all our efforts to keep everyone safe are in vain. 

And this sort of shit doesn't help - some fucking academy CEO who won't be administering any tests to anyone saying oh it's easy. Fuck right off. Also the pilot bears no relation to how it's going to be in reality.









						A 7-step plan for running mass testing in schools
					

Over the past few weeks, three of our schools, all hard-hit by covid-related absence in the autumn term, participated in a pilot to administer rapid lateral flow tests to pupils and staff. We set up at short notice, with little initial guidance, and it was logistically demanding work. Here’s...




					schoolsweek.co.uk


----------



## Mattym (Dec 29, 2020)

baldrick said:


> How do school staff here feel about potentially being asked to be Covid testers in school?
> 
> I am avoiding checking my work email as I don't want to spoil my holiday - this is the first break I've had since July.
> 
> ...



I won't be doing it.
I will add that I think other staff will be asked first, but that's not really the point, that any member of staff should be asked/told is well out of order.
Properly trained people should be doing this. The NUT/NEU whatever they're called general secretary was interviewed last week and he thought it shouldn't be members of staff, but the army potentially, but tbh I think he was secretly wincing at that, but knows medically trained people have a bigger fight on at the moment.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 29, 2020)

baldrick said:


> How do school staff here feel about potentially being asked to be Covid testers in school?
> 
> I am avoiding checking my work email as I don't want to spoil my holiday - this is the first break I've had since July.
> 
> ...



I'm a trainee teacher so I wouldn't mind doing some test-related stuff if it meant actual teachers weren't having to add it to their already ruinous workloads, but as I'm not actually a school employee it might not be allowed.


----------



## Red Cat (Dec 29, 2020)

Mattym said:


> I won't be doing it.
> I will add that I think other staff will be asked first, but that's not really the point, that any member of staff should be asked/told is well out of order.
> Properly trained people should be doing this. The NUT/NEU whatever they're called general secretary was interviewed last week and he thought it shouldn't be members of staff, but the army potentially, but tbh I think he was secretly wincing at that, but knows medically trained people have a bigger fight on at the moment.



The army did it in Liverpool, my sister (a teacher) told me.


----------



## Mattym (Dec 29, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> The army did it in Liverpool, my sister (a teacher) told me.



It gets the government out of (slightly less) shit if they do it and if they are medically trained and willing, then it's probably a good idea, but if they're not??? I am not bothered about the amount of shit the government's in (think they have provided enough of that already), more so that schools are safer places.


----------



## baldrick (Dec 29, 2020)

Mattym said:


> I won't be doing it.
> I will add that I think other staff will be asked first, but that's not really the point, that any member of staff should be asked/told is well out of order.
> Properly trained people should be doing this. The NUT/NEU whatever they're called general secretary was interviewed last week and he thought it shouldn't be members of staff, but the army potentially, but tbh I think he was secretly wincing at that, but knows medically trained people have a bigger fight on at the moment.


I agree, but I don't know how to say no, if I am asked. I'm not unwilling to help - I'm more than happy to take on organisation/planning/whatever but supervising testing and handling used test materials - just no. I'm not surprised it's come to this, but it should be trained medical staff doing it. And definitely not teachers. It's bad enough that the authorities think schools have a pool of admin staff/ exam invigilators/ teaching assistants who have nothing else to do - even if we did have one or two staff who could be redeployed, that's nowhere near enough. We would need probably 10-15 staff to get through the testing required.


----------



## Petcha (Dec 29, 2020)

Apologies if this has been covered, but does anyone know why my son's nursery is opening up as usual on Tuesday but the local schools arent?

Dont get me wrong, i want him to be at nursery as much as possible. I just dont see the logic here.


----------



## Mattym (Dec 29, 2020)

baldrick said:


> I agree, but I don't know how to say no, if I am asked. I'm not unwilling to help - I'm more than happy to take on organisation/planning/whatever but supervising testing and handling used test materials - just no. I'm not surprised it's come to this, but it should be trained medical staff doing it. And definitely not teachers. It's bad enough that the authorities think schools have a pool of admin staff/ exam invigilators/ teaching assistants who have nothing else to do - even if we did have one or two staff who could be redeployed, that's nowhere near enough. We would need probably 10-15 staff to get through the testing required.



Think you just need to pick your time & say that you're not prepared.
Other staff may want to volunteer, but again I feel that asking them is unfair.
Over the next few days, I can see heads across the country composing emails asking for staff to email them if they want to opt 'out' of helping with the testing.


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

Petcha said:


> Apologies if this has been covered, but does anyone know why my son's nursery is opening up as usual on Tuesday but the local schools arent?
> 
> Dont get me wrong, i want him to be at nursery as much as possible. I just dont see the logic here.


Are you in Scotland?


----------



## Thora (Dec 29, 2020)

baldrick said:


> I agree, but I don't know how to say no, if I am asked. I'm not unwilling to help - I'm more than happy to take on organisation/planning/whatever but supervising testing and handling used test materials - just no. I'm not surprised it's come to this, but it should be trained medical staff doing it. And definitely not teachers. It's bad enough that the authorities think schools have a pool of admin staff/ exam invigilators/ teaching assistants who have nothing else to do - even if we did have one or two staff who could be redeployed, that's nowhere near enough. We would need probably 10-15 staff to get through the testing required.


My local secondary is advertising for people to do the testing, £10 an hour no experience necessary.


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## muscovyduck (Dec 29, 2020)

baldrick said:


> I am very reluctant to participate in testing, to be honest. Which I feel quite bad about as I obviously work with a whole bunch of teachers who are in classrooms with 30 kids all day.


When you stick up for yourself, you are not responsible for management bullying someone else. Don't fall for this shit.

When I did min wage 0 hours work (and even when I did volunteer/'voluteer' work) I heard all sorts of sob stories about/from people trying to get me to take on extra shifts - the implication being if I didn't do the shift, it was unfair on them because they shouldn't have to do that shift. Ultimately though, them doing the shift could be unfair, but that had nothing to do with me refusing to do it. That was on management for not taking the rota seriously, not giving people stable contracts and not paying enough to make it worthwhile for me to take the extra shift on. All of this to say, if someone else you work with gets talked into into doing the tests, that's not fair, but the fact that it's not fair isn't because you refused to do it.

Was it kalidarkone that was dealing with some pushback for refusing to work without the right PPE back in March/April? If so I feel like she might have some useful insight here, it's the same sort of underlying workplace cultural issue


----------



## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

Since the subject came up, this is what the mid-December stuff the government bunged on their website said about how the testing should be staffed:



> Schools and educational trusts, supported by local authorities, will need to provide a small team to support the work. We recommend that this includes 1 to 2 members of staff with others being either volunteers (for example governors) or agency staff brought in for this purpose. Reasonable workforce costs of state-funded schools will be reimbursed.
> 
> Armed forces personnel will support directly through planning with schools and colleges.



From Schools and childcare settings: return in January 2021


----------



## chilango (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> My local secondary is advertising for people to do the testing, £10 an hour no experience necessary.



World beating.


----------



## baldrick (Dec 29, 2020)

Thora said:


> My local secondary is advertising for people to do the testing, £10 an hour no experience necessary.


No dbs either I imagine. It beggars belief tbh.


----------



## muscovyduck (Dec 29, 2020)

baldrick said:


> No dbs either I imagine. It beggars belief tbh.


For those wondering, the loophole is that you don't need one if you're supervised by someone who does have one, which, in practice, does mean people without dbs checks frequently get left unsupervised with children. The supervision doesn't have to be 1 on 1


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## baldrick (Dec 30, 2020)

muscovyduck said:


> For those wondering, the loophole is that you don't need one if you're supervised by someone who does have one, which, in practice, does mean people without dbs checks frequently get left unsupervised with children. The supervision doesn't have to be 1 on 1


Yeah, it's a huge pain to manage in school. It's not hugely helpful to have people without dbs helping due to the extra burden of supervising and organising.


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## Badgers (Dec 30, 2020)

None of the usual leaks to the press prior another vague announcement/update?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 30, 2020)

I don't want to go back.

I'm looking at the numbers and  I just  feel like it's a fucking shit show.
We shut down for months over numbers  that  look laughable compared to the numbers we have at the moment. 
Am I going to play russian roulette with my families health for this?

Maybe come back to this after easter with a few more inoculations done. I'd trade june  for january at this point (unless it got  worse  but at that point  it's fucking mad max times)


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 30, 2020)

Y'know if it was done for the explicit purpose of giving the students the best chance at life  and  if I felt  we had really weighed up all the options  and  decided going back was the best option I think i'd  be ok  with it  I just get the feeling we are sleep walking  into  doing  same as  usual.


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## chilango (Dec 30, 2020)

Badgers said:


> None of the usual leaks to the press prior another vague announcement/update?



The "staggered start" seems to be it.

I guess that'll kick the can down the road for another week.


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## chilango (Dec 30, 2020)

They are not - as a matter of principle - going to listen to teachers. The only thing that'll shift them from below is mass absenteeism from parents. They'll then need to act to maintain a pretence of control.


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## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

chilango said:


> They are not - as a matter of principle - going to listen to teachers. The only thing that'll shift them from below is mass absenteeism from parents. They'll then need to act to maintain a pretence of control.


I doubt mass absenteeism would move them. They'll just ignore it and say all is well cause schools are open. They have ignored months of poor attendance due to self and forced isolation.


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## chilango (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I doubt mass absenteeism would move them. They'll just ignore it and say all is well cause schools are open. They have ignored months of poor attendance due to self and forced isolation.



I think it was plummeting attendance that forced them to "act" in the Spring.

But, sure, I wouldn't put it past them to just bluster on through.


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## baldrick (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I doubt mass absenteeism would move them. They'll just ignore it and say all is well cause schools are open. They have ignored months of poor attendance due to self and forced isolation.


Ah but the DfE aren't counting Corona related absence as absence. Schools have to record it under new categories which map to the X code - not required to be in school - usually used for reception aged children.

They're not even proposing to count it in the Census but there is some strong opposition to that currently. A decision will need to be made soon so that school MIS providers can sort out the necessary.


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## planetgeli (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I doubt mass absenteeism would move them. They'll just ignore it and say all is well cause schools are open. They have ignored months of poor attendance due to self and forced isolation.



I think this is right. 

It wasn't plummeting attendance that forced them to act in March. There was a SLT meeting in my county for all schools via Zoom, days before lockdown. I think that was 'planning' and the absenteeism was nothing to do with it. At my 'special' school absenteeism was much worse when we went back at the end of June, and all last term. We ended up with 25% attendance in December. We'll have that or less in January. It will be ignored.

We've been told we're back for inset via Zoom/Teams next Monday and Tuesday. Kids back Wednesday, no staggering.


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## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

chilango said:


> I think it was plummeting attendance that forced them to "act" in the Spring.
> 
> But, sure, I wouldn't put it past them to just bluster on through.


I think spring lockdown was a worldwide response that they followed, nothing to do with absenteeism.


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## maomao (Dec 30, 2020)

A large proportion of parents, probably the majority, aren't able to take their kids out of school till it's official due to work commitments anyway.


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## maomao (Dec 30, 2020)

What I don't understand is if the government is so focused on education no one has suggested (to my knowledge) cancelling (or reducing) the summer holidays in compensation for time lost when the virus is most active. Might not be a popular move but then neither are lockdown or tens of thousands dying.


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## existentialist (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> A large proportion of parents, probably the majority, aren't able to take their kids out of school till it's official due to work commitments anyway.


But I think we are rapidly reaching the point - if we haven't already - where people are going to say "screw the rules, screw the stiffly-worded warnings...yeah, possibly even screw the pay cheques, this is about *survival" *and taking steps accordingly. And I wouldn't blame them one jot.


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## purenarcotic (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> What I don't understand is if the government is so focused on education no one has suggested (to my knowledge) cancelling (or reducing) the summer holidays in compensation for time lost when the virus is most active. Might not be a popular move but then neither are lockdown or tens of thousands dying.



I don’t believe any changes to holidays are a good idea as I don’t trust the government to not stick with less holidays. Children don’t get enough holidays as it is IMO. Kids who attend private schools get more holidays than state school kids. 

When would everyone get their summer holiday if it was cancelled? It’s not like school staff are working less hard...


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## chilango (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> A large proportion of parents, probably the majority, aren't able to take their kids out of school till it's official due to work commitments anyway.



I know


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## chilango (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> What I don't understand is if the government is so focused on education no one has suggested (to my knowledge) cancelling (or reducing) the summer holidays in compensation for time lost when the virus is most active. Might not be a popular move but then neither are lockdown or tens of thousands dying.



That would either imply complete shutdown (i.e. not open for networkers, vulnerable kids etc and no online provision) or teachers (and kids) losing their (needed) holidays.


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## maomao (Dec 30, 2020)

chilango said:


> That would either imply complete shutdown (i.e. not open for networkers, vulnerable kids etc and no online provision) or teachers (and kids) losing their (needed) holidays.



It would involve forward planning, negotiation with unions and more money so not going to happen under this shower anyway. But holidays on rota, extra money for those giving up holiday and hiring more temp staff.  Schools go back beginning of Feb and all children offered a non-compulsory extra 3 weeks of classroom time July and August.


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## chilango (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> It would involve forward planning, negotiation with unions and more money so not going to happen under this shower anyway. But holidays on rota, extra money for those giving up holiday and hiring more temp staff.  Schools go back end of Feb and all children offered a non-compulsory extra 3 weeks of classroom time July and August.



Yeah, it's theoretically possible.

I don't think it's necessary (or desirable) though. 

From a purely curricular pov shutting down till Feb half-term isn't the end of the world. It's the social and emotional impact that concerns me. and that's not going to be fixed by the loss of holidays.


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## planetgeli (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> What I don't understand is if the government is so focused on education no one has suggested (to my knowledge) cancelling (or reducing) the summer holidays in compensation for time lost when the virus is most active. Might not be a popular move but then neither are lockdown or tens of thousands dying.



This is not popular with unions.

And rightly so.


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## Red Cat (Dec 30, 2020)

Young people need the summer holidays as do teachers. They're already too short.


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## Cloo (Dec 30, 2020)

Given latest announcements,  I'm calling no school in England this term. Maybe some primaries will get a few weeks,  but I think by the time they're saying they'll open secondaries things will only have got worse and even the government won't be able to justify it.


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## trashpony (Dec 30, 2020)

A whole half year of school missed. Our poor kids


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 30, 2020)

primary schools will reopen on January 4 in all but the 'highest infection' areas.  


What does that mean? What are the highest infection areas? Tier 4? All of Tier 4? Why are these wankers so bleeding vague all the sodding time?


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## maomao (Dec 30, 2020)

There's a thread full of them on Twitter but can't see any Surrey:




Mrs maomao wants to try getting a key worker place on the basis that I'm a trainee teacher (she's currently not working). I really do not approve.


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## LDC (Dec 30, 2020)

trashpony said:


> A whole half year of school missed. Our poor kids



Dunno, the one here and all her friends are fine with it.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> There's a thread full of them on Twitter but can't see any Surrey:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Frau Bahn will take a job in Sainsbury's to gain key worker status if BB2's school stays shut, her being at home is so detrimental to her growth. Really don't know what's right and not anymore.


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## Red Cat (Dec 30, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Dunno, the one here and all her friends are fine with it.



You know, young people don't admit when things bother them.


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## Thora (Dec 30, 2020)

Mine would be fine at home as well, and would rather stay at home.  I don't feel they really suffered during the first lockdown, it was just hard for me with home schooling.  I do feel like schools shouldn't be open at the moment, but theirs is, so not sure whether to send them.


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## Indeliblelink (Dec 30, 2020)

Here is the .gov site's waffle -








						School contingency plans to be implemented as cases rise
					

Restrictions on schools and colleges will be introduced in areas with very high rates of coronavirus incidence or transmission.




					www.gov.uk
				












						Contingency framework: education and childcare settings (excluding universities)
					






					www.gov.uk


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## Red Cat (Dec 30, 2020)

Thora said:


> Mine would be fine at home as well, and would rather stay at home.  I don't feel they really suffered during the first lockdown, it was just hard for me with home schooling.  I do feel like schools shouldn't be open at the moment, but theirs is, so not sure whether to send them.



I think its been very variable, but kids, especially teenagers very often deny things bother them. My 13 year old kept her feelings in for weeks and weeks, didn't seem that upset, talked to her friends loads on whatsapp and binge watched netflix, and then eventually broke down about how awful it was. I don't think it's been that detrimental to her though. But my youngest really struggled from the beginning, although it did coincide with a family bereavement, and it really did have an impact on her (the one who always moaned about not liking school).


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## LDC (Dec 30, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> You know, young people don't admit when things bother them.



Ah, thanks for putting me right, I thought that only was sometimes the case.


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## Red Cat (Dec 30, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Ah, thanks for putting me right, I thought that only was sometimes the case.



Sorry, you're right, it is only sometimes the case, but common enough ime. 

It's also true there are lots of young people who really struggle at school and relationships with peers for whom lockdown was a relief.


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## Thora (Dec 30, 2020)

My child who doesn't struggle with school but essentially tolerates it, enjoyed so much time off school and made loads of progress at home.  Actually his ideal set up was when they went back in June - two days a week, 7 children in his class and strict social distancing between children was enforced


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## Red Cat (Dec 30, 2020)

I always thought that was my youngest, she tolerated it, but she hated being at home and did no school work. 30 in a class is actually too much for her, but she also hated that nobody in her class went to keyworker school. She's always been difficult to please though


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## LDC (Dec 30, 2020)

Red Cat said:


> Sorry, you're right, it is only sometimes the case, but common enough ime.
> 
> It's also true there are lots of young people who really struggle at school and relationships with peers for whom lockdown was a relief.



No, it was a fair comment, sorry for the dickhead reply. TBF the little fuckers are a bit of mystery to me, feel free to enlighten me as to the wondrous lunacy of their brainworks!


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## Indeliblelink (Dec 30, 2020)

maomao said:


> There's a thread full of them on Twitter but can't see any Surrey:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The list published here has areas outside London too


			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948580/Contingency_framework_implementation_guidance.pdf
		

Annex A: List of local authorities where this guidance applies: Barking and Dagenham Barnet Bexley Brent Bromley Croydon Ealing Enfield Hammersmith and Fulham Havering Hillingdon Hounslow Kensington and Chelsea Merton Newham Richmond-Upon-Thames Southwark Sutton Tower Hamlets Waltham Forest Wandsworth Westminster Brentwood Epping Forest Castle Point Basildon Rochford Harlow Chelmsford Braintree Maldon Southend on Sea Thurrock Dartford Gravesham Sevenoaks Medway Ashford Maidstone 15 Tonbridge and Malling Tunbridge Wells Swale Hastings Rother Milton Keynes Watford Broxbourne Hertsmere Three Rivers


----------



## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

I need someone to re-explain to me what happens if you're not on the list but in tier 4.  God this is confusing. Although I fully expect my area to be on the list by tomorrow.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I need someone to re-explain to me what happens if you're not on the list but in tier 4.  God this is confusing. Although I fully expect my area to be on the list by tomorrow.


As far as I can figure it out, if you're in normal tier 4:


Primary schools reopen on 4th Jan
Years 11 and 13 remote learning from 4th Jan, all others years get that week off.
Years 11 and 13, plus 'other eligible pupils' (key workers kids and 'vulnerable' students?) back in school from 11th Jan, all other years remote learning that week
everyone back in school from 18th Jan

But since it's clear as mud, I could be wrong...


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## Thora (Dec 30, 2020)

I have read that the list has already been updated to include Redbridge.

nagapie if you're in tier 4 but not on the list then primaries should open on the 4th.


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## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

Thora said:


> I have read that the list has already been updated to include Redbridge.
> 
> nagapie if you're in tier 4 but not on the list then primaries should open on the 4th.



I really am expecting to see my borough on the closed list too, very soon. Will everything then stay the same for secondaries as normal tier 4 but primaries shut to all except key workers?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 30, 2020)

Any news on colleges (sixth form / tertiary or whatever they are known as)?


----------



## clicker (Dec 30, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Any news on colleges (sixth form / tertiary or whatever they are known as)?


I'm sure I read colleges were going back on the 18th, but could be wrong. Can't find it now.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> I really am expecting to see my borough on the closed list too, very soon. Will everything then stay the same for secondaries as normal tier 4 but primaries shut to all except key workers?


I think so, yes.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

The fucking state of this:


----------



## bimble (Dec 30, 2020)




----------



## planetgeli (Dec 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 246177



Sorry but...in the UK Coronavirus thread at 4.46 I posted this



> Sorry, just having a quiet dark humoured chuckle at some SLTs currently tearing their hair out.
> 
> What the fuck was that?



The timing is bang on. I'm not Sam Strickland though. It was just...obvious.


----------



## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The fucking state of this:
> 
> View attachment 246175


It's completely stupid. Mind boggling. What are they trying to do here?


----------



## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

magneze said:


> It's completely stupid. Mind boggling. What are they trying to do here?


That's the question, what are they trying to do? Even my most cynical brain cannot figure this out. Why keep some London primaries open?


----------



## Red Cat (Dec 30, 2020)

I can't work this out at all, it just seems mad and that perhaps is the aim, nobody can figure anything out.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

It's almost as though they put a mantlepiece salesman in charge of our kids' schools and health.


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## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> That's the question, what are they trying to do? Even my most cynical brain cannot figure this out. Why keep some London primaries open?


It smacks of a pathetic compromise to me. Williamson wanted to keep them all open and they settled on this shit show through horse trading rather than anything sensible.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 30, 2020)

National Lockdown. 

_Don't say those words. If we make 4 year olds go to school in Camden, it isn't one._


----------



## sparkybird (Dec 30, 2020)

Lambeth is open? And surrounding boroughs closed? Mad! And some students will of course go to school outside their borough. WTF


----------



## Rebelda (Dec 30, 2020)

Thora said:


> I have read that the list has already been updated to include Redbridge.
> 
> nagapie if you're in tier 4 but not on the list then primaries should open on the 4th.


Departments of education blaming the department of health for the omission. Absolute fucking shambles.


----------



## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

sparkybird said:


> Lambeth is open? And surrounding boroughs closed? Mad! And some students will of course go to school outside their borough. WTF


Not to mention staff. It's completely batshit. This is the reason London was always treated as one unit. Until Gavin fucking Williamson stuck is oar in.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 30, 2020)

That map of London with the little islands of schools still open is... utterly fucking insane.


----------



## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

magneze said:


> It smacks of a pathetic compromise to me. Williamson wanted to keep them all open and they settled on this shit show through horse trading rather than anything sensible.


Yup:" This patchwork approach to reopening schools followed a tussle between cabinet ministers including Williamson, who wanted to keep schools open, and others including Hancock and the Cabinet Office minister, Michael Gove, who wanted to be more cautious." Schools chaos as 21m more people in England face toughest Covid curbs


----------



## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

magneze said:


> It smacks of a pathetic compromise to me. Williamson wanted to keep them all open and they settled on this shit show through horse trading rather than anything sensible.


But why compromise with London? Surely close London but keep other parts open, still no national lockdown.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 30, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> That map of London with the little islands of schools still open is... utterly fucking insane.



It must be so hard to explain this stuff to your kids in a way that allows them to maintain some level of faith that the grown ups are doing sensible things to make everything better. Because there really aren't any grown ups in play at all here. That scares the shit out of _me_ and I've had several decades to get used to the idea.


----------



## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> But why compromise with London? Surely close London but keep other parts open, still no national lockdown.


Fuck knows. I bet Williamson doesn't know either. Probably won't see him until the public enquiry now.


----------



## Sue (Dec 30, 2020)

nagapie said:


> But why compromise with London? Surely close London but keep other parts open, still no national lockdown.


Hackney looks to be open. Until yesterday, the borough was over 800/100k. It's now 750 (and obviously some bits are worse) which is worse than many of the boroughs that are closed. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

I've written to my MP. I cannot see how this is justified. The government have made stupid decisions again and again but for some reason this one just seems to be the stupidest.


----------



## magneze (Dec 30, 2020)

Fucks sake, that sounds pathetic, doesn't it "i've written to my MP".


----------



## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

Lambeth NEU meeting to discuss the shit show tomorrow morning.


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## nagapie (Dec 30, 2020)

Just read a post from someone on a local FB group who said Lambeth staying open because Kings and St Thomas together provide lots of hospital beds. Grim.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Dec 30, 2020)

I've felt that this is just another fucked up, back to front, plan based around the fact that they would still - after everything - _prefer_ to see the NHS being completely overwhelmed and more people dying, than to go back on yet another insistence that this years _exams_ will/must happen. A fucking _face saving_ exercise - but yet another one that will, undoubtedly, come with catastrophic results.





> Williamson’s allies have been consulting MPs to see if they may publicly come out in favour of schools opening on time. *He is understood to be raising concerns about the effect on summer exams in England if more learning hours are lost.
> 
> He has privately emphasised he believes school leaders would find it difficult to reopen schools again after a short closure because of the impact on parent and teacher confidence.* The Department for Education has said the return to schools is being kept “under review”.











						England school reopening in doubt with ministers divided
					

Education secretary under pressure to rethink plan for millions of pupils to return




					www.theguardian.com
				




It has fuck all to do with any benefit to, or concern for, kids, let alone anything else. Cancelling this years exams would be monumentally better for students and schools, in every way - and more and more learning hours are clearly lost while they continue to ignore all the scientific advice and the rising figures in the meantime - but '_exams'_ seem to be the driving force for a cascade of awful, dangerous decisions while they stick to working from that starting point. It's _insane_.

Also - that last bolded sentence - wtf does that even mean? Noting the ongoing responsibilty (blame) being laid at the feet of _school leaders_, not himself - that, effectively, people will have _more_ confidence in being duped, during a huge rise in cases, during a pandemic? Y'know, this isn't fucking fireplaces you're selling, Gav, you shady cunt.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 30, 2020)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 30, 2020)

They couldn’t give a fuck about the NHS - the complete dismantling of it has been their agenda for decades. COVID could well be their final nail.


----------



## Thora (Dec 30, 2020)

How long do you think it will be until that chart is really outdated?  I reckon by the 18th January we'll look back and laugh at the idea that schools would be fully open.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 30, 2020)

Thora said:


> How long do you think it will be until that chart is really outdated?  I reckon by the 18th January we'll look back and laugh at the idea that schools would be fully open.


Probably already outdated


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 30, 2020)

My understanding matches what S☼I posted, that secondary schools will be open for key worker / vulnerable kids as from 4 Jan, then the 'exam years' from 11 Jan

I have a minor interest in this like wtf am i supposed to do with about 2 dozen school buses on monday...


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 31, 2020)

sparkybird said:
			
		

> Lambeth is open? And surrounding boroughs closed? Mad! And some students will of course go to school outside their borough. WTF



I'm neither a parent, nor a teacher, nor London-dwelling any more, but even I can grasp the bonkersly chaotic insanity of everything going  on with schools at the moment 



magneze said:


> Not to mention staff. It's completely batshit. *This is the reason London was always treated as one unit. *Until Gavin fucking Williamson stuck is oar in.



Especially before 1976  - remember ILEA, oldies?  

**[ETA *Correction* : '1976' was a typo, I meant before 1986!!-<---------- accuracy is all!  ]


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 31, 2020)

Thora chart already changed. Mrs SI has told me so, but I didn't catch how exactly as I'd been awake four seconds


----------



## Red Cat (Dec 31, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It must be so hard to explain this stuff to your kids in a way that allows them to maintain some level of faith that the grown ups are doing sensible things to make everything better. Because there really aren't any grown ups in play at all here. That scares the shit out of _me_ and I've had several decades to get used to the idea.



We limit what we say, stick to what they need to know, we don't have the news on. Limit their exposure to grown ups who aren't grown ups, and emphasise how well the schools are managing a very difficult situation. The eldest is 13 and has her own news sources of course (tiktok) but its more important the 9 year old has a sense that we're being looked after.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 31, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Just read a post from someone on a local FB group who said Lambeth staying open because Kings and St Thomas together provide lots of hospital beds. Grim.


"I know, let's use up all our spare bed capacity to enable us to stick with our dangerous plan - what could possibly go wrong?"


----------



## nagapie (Dec 31, 2020)

existentialist said:


> "I know, let's use up all our spare bed capacity to enable us to stick with our dangerous plan - what could possibly go wrong?"


Apparently this isn't it so god knows what is. It's unfathomable.


----------



## Sue (Dec 31, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Apparently this isn't it so god knows what is. It's unfathomable.


I'm going to stick my neck out and saying it's just another example of the Government fucking it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The fucking state of this:
> 
> View attachment 246175


Not sure if I should be laughing or crying?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 31, 2020)

So Gav "Only one bar on" Williamson has just this morning said that schools are _required_ to carry out mass testing.

"That is why we are saying that the mass testing regime we are rolling out in our secondary schools has to move from being optional and an offer to schools to being something we require schools to do. Schools are a unique environment, and it is important that we put as many protections in place as we can.”





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The fucking state of this:
> 
> View attachment 246175



9 months in and the 'policy' still seems to be react to 'fuuuuuuck things are bad' rather than act to prevent 'fuuuuuuck things are bad'.


----------



## LDC (Dec 31, 2020)

If next week we're on X hundred dead daily and X thousand daily infections and both are still rising (as looks inevitable for a couple more weeks) how the fuck will it look like a good plan to open schools on top of that? At what point will they backtrack, or will it just fall apart from non-attendance and sickness?


----------



## purenarcotic (Dec 31, 2020)

I just don’t understand how they can justify this. I don’t want a lockdown, it’s so bad for so many, but I just don’t see how we can justify anything else. We are seeing rates the same as when we were locked down before, we have a crap test and trace, we have no proper financial support in place for those isolating... the endlessness of this is really getting to me now, as is the frustration that this really didn’t have to be this way. Sigh.


----------



## Red Cat (Dec 31, 2020)

My partner is clinically vulnerable, I'm not sure if the 9 yr old should be going to school really although I don't want her off either. So far as i know about a quarter of the class had it over xmas, but that's only the parents I'm in touch with, so it could've been more, and probably was. I haven't got a sense of there being a move to non-attendance round here but that could change quickly.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 31, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If next week we're on X hundred dead daily and X thousand daily infections and both are still rising (as looks inevitable for a couple more weeks) how the fuck will it look like a good plan to open schools on top of that? At what point will they backtrack, or will it just fall apart from non-attendance and sickness?



It would be interesting to see what would have happened if schools had shut 3 days earlier before xmas. How many chains of infection would have been cut off.


----------



## Sue (Dec 31, 2020)

My sister (in Scotland) has just been asking wtf is going on here. My primary school age nephew has an extra three days holiday next week and will be at home until at least the 18th (with the caveat that that could change, depending on rates). 

He was sent home with a learning pack to cover various home schooling scenarios when they split up for Christmas. All this had already been communicated to parents at national level as well as LA/school level. So you know, it is possible...


----------



## LDC (Dec 31, 2020)

Discussion on exams now on Radio 4 (I know...). They had a headteacher on saying the support they're getting for testing is 'webinar training' from the army to get kids back to school. I mean ffs, that is the absolute epitome of pandemic capitalism 2020.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 31, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Discussion on exams now on Radio 4 (I know...). They had a headteacher on saying the support they're getting for testing is 'webinar training' from the army to get kids back to school. I mean ffs, that is the absolute epitome of pandemic capitalism 2020.


Yep. Military personnel holding webinars to instruct teachers how to test pupils during a pandemic is dystopian as fuck. Almost laughable


----------



## elbows (Dec 31, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Yep. Military personnel holding webinars to instruct teachers how to test pupils during a pandemic is dystopian as fuck. Almost laughable


----------



## LDC (Dec 31, 2020)

General Huge Pockets and Deadpan Delivery can be in charge. After a webinar on testing from him you'll wish you had the fucking virus the charisma vacuum.

_"Head back, 1, 2, 3, flare nostrils 1, 2, 3, stick sticky thing in nostril 1, 2, 3, wiggle forcefully 1, 2, 3, withdraw swiftly 1, 2, 3... etc."_


----------



## Thora (Dec 31, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Thora chart already changed. Mrs SI has told me so, but I didn't catch how exactly as I'd been awake four seconds


Just seen on Twitter that the Govt has now circulated three different versions of that chart


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 31, 2020)

If other primaries are like mine, the problem isn’t just the management of pupils, but also the clusters of parents having a chin wag at the school gates, no masks, no distancing. Every fucking evening they’re at it, blocking the pavement so I have to walk into the road with the pushchair to pass them.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> If other primaries are like mine, the problem isn’t just the management of pupils, but also the clusters of parents having a chin wag at the school gates, no masks, no distancing. Every fucking evening they’re at it, blocking the pavement so I have to walk into the road with the pushchair to pass them.



Seems a ubiquitous phenomenon at primary schools tbh.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 1, 2021)

It's really hard maintaining that kind of unnatural way of being with people over the long term when the natural thing is to come together and chat. It can be hard, and lonely, being a parent, talking with other parents at the school gate is the only meeting up some people have.


----------



## Thora (Jan 1, 2021)

And also if you’re no longer allowed onto school grounds, you’re forced together in a really small space outside the gate.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 1, 2021)

I don't think you can tell people that it's OK for the kids to all be squashed together inside all day but not OK for them to stop for a couple of minutes outside for a chat and expect that to stick tbh.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 1, 2021)

Johnson even said "schools are safe" again in the latest presser the day it was revealed all schoolkids will be having compulsory testing


----------



## klang (Jan 1, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Johnson even said "schools are safe" again in the latest presser the day it was revealed all schoolkids will be having compulsory testing


didn't he say something like 'schools are safe but have a very high transmission rate'?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 1, 2021)

littleseb said:


> didn't he say something like 'schools are safe but have a very high transmission rate'?


He may have done. I seem to remember him just saying it like a mantra, a throwback from the days they could still lie about it

ETA 





> Because today of course it remains the case that keeping children in education is a national priority
> 
> it remains the case that schools are safe.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 1, 2021)

littleseb said:


> didn't he say something like 'schools are safe but have a very high transmission rate'?


They are safe. Schools can't get covid only people can.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 1, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> They are safe. Schools can't get covid only people can.


----------



## magneze (Jan 1, 2021)

^ clearly not covid safe, better off with Daft Punk.


----------



## LDC (Jan 1, 2021)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 246455


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 1, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Yep. Military personnel holding webinars to instruct teachers how to test pupils during a pandemic is dystopian as fuck. Almost laughable



'Here's some advice on public health in an educational setting from someone who failed all their GCSEs then got a job killing people'


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 1, 2021)

littleseb said:


> didn't he say something like 'schools are safe but have a very high transmission rate'?





S☼I said:


> He may have done. I seem to remember him just saying it like a mantra, a throwback from the days they could still lie about it





Shippou-Sensei said:


> They are safe. Schools can't get covid only people can.



yes.  schools are perfectly safe, it's the fact that people from different households mix in them that's the problem.









						‘Schools are safe,’ says prime minister
					

Boris Johnson says ‘the problem is not the schools’, but the household mixing that ‘naturally takes place’ there




					www.tes.com
				




that obviously hadn't occurred to him before.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 1, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> yes.  schools are perfectly safe, it's the fact that people from different households mix in them that's the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Teaching would go a lot smoother if it wasn't  for those pesky students.


----------



## oryx (Jan 1, 2021)

Looks like all the local authorities writing to Gavin Williamson re the insane situation in London (totally random selection of boroughs in which to keep primary schools open or not) are still awaiting any news of a rationale behind this.

As the leader of Greenwich Council said:



> "Kensington and Chelsea has one of the lowest infection rates for the whole of the capital, yet their children and young people are being afforded the extra protection that apparently Royal Greenwich students don't need."


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

1st U-turn of the year to Mantlepiece man:


----------



## magneze (Jan 1, 2021)

Great news. Wtf were they thinking in the first place though?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> Great news. Wtf were they thinking in the first place though?


"thinking"


----------



## teqniq (Jan 1, 2021)

Why only London though?


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 1, 2021)

I still don't know whether to keep my daughter off school (in Birmingham) as my partner is shielding.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

Assuming that LB Greenwich will be the u-turn to the u-turn for obvious (to CuntWilliamson) reasons?


----------



## teqniq (Jan 1, 2021)

This explains the u-turn:











						Blog • Public Interest Law Centre
					






					www.pilc.org.uk


----------



## kebabking (Jan 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This explains the u-turn:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bizarre.

We - and every other parent in Worcestershire - received a letter from the LA/AT/Head at some point in june to confirm that while children _should _return to school, there would be no sanction applied nor absence marked as unauthorised if parents decided to keep the kids out of school because of worries over Covid.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This explains the u-turn:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My daughter is working on that campaign


----------



## ska invita (Jan 1, 2021)

A very minor thing but I caught BBC TV main news yesterday, lead story was on schools
The piece interviewed two school kids who said they wanted to go back as they'd be bored otherwise
Their mum wanted back too
Head teacher complained at last minute decisions by government but that's it 

Zero voices from medicians or unions who think it's not safe for it to happen 

No surprise, but what a load of shit BBC news is.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 1, 2021)

Thora said:


> And also if you’re no longer allowed onto school grounds, you’re forced together in a really small space outside the gate.



we have five gates, plenty of space for queuing. Different year groups use different entrances at the moment.

Pavements are narrow, so even without Covid it‘s annoying having to pass a few parents stood immediately outside one of the gates completely blocking the pavement. Shite if you’re wanting to get past with one child in a pushchair and one wobbling about on a bike or scooter, we have to go into the road.  They could actually have their little get together within the playground where there is plenty of space or on the wide pavement around the corner. But a bit of distancing and maybe masks might be a good idea too.


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## nagapie (Jan 1, 2021)

Are the pavements outside school really high areas of transmission?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 1, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Are the pavements outside school really high areas of transmission?


They will be if lots of people jam together, unmasked.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> we have five gates, plenty of space for queuing. Different year groups use different entrances at the moment.
> 
> Pavements are narrow, so even without Covid it‘s annoying having to pass a few parents stood immediately outside one of the gates completely blocking the pavement. Shite if you’re wanting to get past with one child in a pushchair and one wobbling about on a bike or scooter, we have to go into the road.  They could actually have their little get together within the playground where there is plenty of space or on the wide pavement around the corner. But a bit of distancing and maybe masks might be a good idea too.


We have to wear masks at my daughter's school. There's a pretty decent queuing and one way system too. However a small percentage of parents fuck it up by sitting in their cars (with engines running of course) and then barging in the front when the gates open. Infuriating.

Despite the fact my daughter will really want to go in I'm now erring on the side of caution, certainly for the first week back (for her it's the 11th all local schools are remote learning next week). I suspect that everything may have changed by then anyway.


----------



## Aladdin (Jan 2, 2021)

Schools creches and child care facilities in Ireland are all to stay closed to Jan 11th. This is to he reviewed.  
HSE CEO said of testing and positivity rates today 

Meanwhile Health Service Executive CEO Paul Reid has warned that "we need to get the spread of the virus back under control".

 "Positivity rates yesterday at 22% with some centres reaching 50%. It's quite rampant & high risk. But we can turn this around again. Let's do it."

🥺  I think they need to not rely on people rallying to the call.. the government needs to do a hell of a lot more to make us safe.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 2, 2021)

All London primary schools to remain closed...


----------



## nagapie (Jan 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> They will be if lots of people jam together, unmasked.


That's not really what happens tho. Lots of people wear masks, different years come out at different times/entrances and even those who chat without masks keep a relative distance. I think jam doesn't quite fit and they're outdoors.


----------



## Glitter (Jan 2, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> We have to wear masks at my daughter's school. There's a pretty decent queuing and one way system too. However a small percentage of parents fuck it up by sitting in their cars (with engines running of course) and then barging in the front when the gates open. Infuriating.
> 
> Despite the fact my daughter will really want to go in I'm now erring on the side of caution, certainly for the first week back (for her it's the 11th all local schools are remote learning next week). I suspect that everything may have changed by then anyway.



We have to wear masks too and we’re not allowed in the playground - we’re not allowed on the premises at all. They collect children from their allocated gates. Start times staggered.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It's really hard maintaining that kind of unnatural way of being with people over the long term when the natural thing is to come together and chat. It can be hard, and lonely, being a parent, talking with other parents at the school gate is the only meeting up some people have.



Nah, what's hard is being dead because you got covid and died.


----------



## maomao (Jan 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nah, what's hard is being dead because you got covid and died.


Which is a very very unlikely result for most parents of primary age children.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> That's not really what happens tho. Lots of people wear masks, different years come out at different times/entrances and even those who chat without masks keep a relative distance. I think jam doesn't quite fit and they're outdoors.


----------



## maomao (Jan 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



That's kids inside schools not parents outside.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 2, 2021)

maomao said:


> That's kids inside schools not parents outside.


Yeah. Sorry, did not mean to quote you or anyone with that  stubby finger fail.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> That's not really what happens tho. Lots of people wear masks, different years come out at different times/entrances and even those who chat without masks keep a relative distance. I think jam doesn't quite fit and they're outdoors.



Based on my observations (as the guy whose job it is to unlock the gates), few people wear masks, distancing is very sketchy, times aren’t staggered and many parents have multiple kids in different years so a lot of weaving about. We’ve instigated a few bits of one way system where paths or gates are narrow, and different gates for different year groups. No control over how people behave outside the gates (or inside them really).  It’s just another transmission path that needs to be considered when sending kids back to school, that of parental mixing.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 2, 2021)

Whatever excuse or justification you can come up with far too many people are not at least erring on the side of caution regarding distancing. I can't help it, it makes me angry.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nah, what's hard is being dead because you got covid and died.



You've not been a parent, have you Frank?


----------



## maomao (Jan 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Based on my observations (as the guy whose job it is to unlock the gates), few people wear masks, distancing is very sketchy, times aren’t staggered and many parents have multiple kids in different years so a lot of weaving about. We’ve instigated a few bits of one way system where paths or gates are narrow, and different gates for different year groups. No control over how people behave outside the gates (or inside them really).  It’s just another transmission path that needs to be considered when sending kids back to school, that of parental mixing.


Our school sent parents home to get masks before they could pick their kids up. It worked and now almost everyone wears masks. Also the headmaster and janitor steward it a bit, breaking up groups, keeping people moving. But it's a small school and only in it's fifth year since opening so less parents to deal with than most. 

If I'm at work though, a quick hello to another mum will be the only adult contact my wife gets for most of the day.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nah, what's hard is being dead because you got covid and died.



Ah the black and white you're with us or you're for people dying thinking again. 

Part of the problem of managing this pandemic is there's been no expressed or implied understanding of how people behave in groups.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Whatever excuse or justification you can come up with far too many people are not at least erring on the side of caution regarding distancing. I can't help it, it makes me angry.



It's not either of those things, it's an understanding of people's need for connection and how people behave in groups. 

And that can co-exist with anger about these things.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> You've not been a parent, have you Frank?



I've been a person, and like all other people I have struggled with the lack of social contact this past year. Being a parent doesn't put you in a special category where your need to chat shit with other parents without bothering to put a mask on trumps other people's need to not die.

e2a: And if I were a parent I like to think I'd prioritise getting to a point where my kids could go to school normally, socialise normally, have a proper childhood etc over my need to chat shit with other parents without bothering to put a mask on. I'd also be aware of my obligation to be a good role model for my child by demonstrating conscientious, considerate behaviour.

'Parent' after all is just a subcategory of 'grown-up'.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 2, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It's not either of those things, it's an understanding of people's need for connection and how people behave in groups.
> 
> And that can co-exist with anger about these things.


How people behave in groups usually, or at a time where there's been a fairly well publicised deadly pandemic circulating for months?


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I've been a person, and like all other people I have struggled with the lack of social contact this past year. Being a parent doesn't put you in a special category where your need to chat shit with other parents without bothering to put a mask on trumps other people's need to not die.
> 
> e2a: And if I were a parent I like to think I'd prioritise getting to a point where my kids could go to school normally, socialise normally, have a proper childhood etc over my need to chat shit with other parents without bothering to put a mask on. I'd also be aware of my obligation to be a good role model for my child by demonstrating conscientious, considerate behaviour.
> 
> 'Parent' after all is just a subcategory of 'grown-up'.



My point is not that parents get to be "a special category" but rather recognising (and remembering) how hard it can be.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 2, 2021)

I think school gates are a red herring. Outside, mostly some sort of compliance and some measures in place. I'd be surprised if they were ever identified as means of transmission. If people go to someone's house after, that's different. And you can't police teenagers, believe me I watch my school try, poor TAs on 'road clearance duty' every day.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

Also by "chat shit" you might be referring to the only adult, social  contact that a very tired, stressed, anxious person might have that day.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> How people behave in groups usually, or at a time where there's been a fairly well publicised deadly pandemic circulating for months?



Why wouldn't you look at both if you were actually interested in controlling a virus? Why wouldn't you employ the experts in this? The organisation that (i think) most employs group consultants is the NHS because of the way we behave in groups when faced with illness and death.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I think school gates are a red herring. Outside, mostly some sort of compliance and some measures in place. I'd be surprised if they were ever identified as means of transmission. If people go to someone's house after, that's different. And you can't police teenagers, believe me I watch my school try, poor TAs on 'road clearance duty' every day.



I think it really depends on the geographical capital of the school.

Schools with the land, ample parking, multiple entrances and exits, distance from busy roads etc. are in a far better position than those with tiny playgrounds, one entrance, narrow pavements and fronting busy roads etc.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> I think it really depends on the geographical capital of the school.
> 
> Schools with the land, ample parking, multiple entrances and exits, distance from busy roads etc. are in a far better position than those with tiny playgrounds, one entrance, narrow pavements and fronting busy roads etc.


I guess what I'm questioning is more the ability for the virus to transmit in the outdoors where people may be close together but not right on top of each other and not for a very extended period of time.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 2, 2021)

My kids primary has a single entry point at the end of a cul-de-sac. Distancing at pickup time is somewhat difficult.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Also by "chat shit" you might be referring to the only adult, social  contact that a very tired, stressed, anxious person might have that day.



Which precludes that person from putting a mask on because...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> How people behave in groups usually, or at a time where there's been a fairly well publicised deadly pandemic circulating for months?



But they're _parents _you monster.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

That's not what I said is it SpookyFrank ?


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

I think there is a monstering of others going on here, I'd expect that in a situation where people are scared, and public health England should expect that too and it should be incorporated into their education of the public and management of the pandemic.


----------



## Thora (Jan 2, 2021)

Our school is a bit of a pain as the gates open on to a narrow (one way) road with no pavement. Classes coming out from 2.30-3.10 so some parents are waiting for a while.
I wear a mask but I also stand on a grass verge and chat with other parents.  We’re outside and I don’t see it as any riskier than chatting to someone in the park (no masks!).
If I’m going to pick up covid from someone it’s going to be a child in my house who has been in physical contact with 30 other kids in a room all day, not standing 1m away from an adult for 10 minutes outside.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 2, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I think there is a monstering of others going on here, I'd expect that in a situation where people are scared, and public health England should expect that too and it should be incorporated into their education of the public and management of the pandemic.


I'm seriously not "monstering" anyone, but I cannot fathom why every person cannot wear a mask and maintain social distancing while chatting. There has to be some measure of personal responsibility here


----------



## Glitter (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm seriously not "monstering" anyone, but I cannot fathom why every person cannot wear a mask and maintain social distancing while chatting. There has to be some measure of personal responsibility here



I do wear a mask for drop off and pick up because school ask me to but I’m not sure what the point is when you’re outside and distanced tbh. I don’t put it on on the walk up, just as I approach school and I take it off as I walk off.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I guess what I'm questioning is more the ability for the virus to transmit in the outdoors where people may be close together but not right on top of each other and not for a very extended period of time.



Yeah. Fair enough.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which precludes that person from putting a mask on because...



It shouldn't...but being very tired, very stressed, anxious etc. can cloud one's judgement somewhat.


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm seriously not "monstering" anyone, but I cannot fathom why every person cannot wear a mask and maintain social distancing while chatting. There has to be some measure of personal responsibility here



It's the reification of "personal responsibility" as the guiding ideology of 40 years of government that has rendered the British State (and society) utterly incapable of responding to a fundamentally social and collective emergency.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 2, 2021)

I think there is a 'monstering' of the virus, something deadly we don't understand much about, and any monstering of people comes from this when those people make themselves possible suspects in the transmission of the virus. I think that's unavoidable. And in may circumstances healthy, literally, if it changes minds and saves lives.

I can't see the school gates as a red herring. While transmission may be reduced, maybe even a lot, I can't deny airborne transmission outside like some people here seem happy to believe. We aren't going to know because no study is likely to be done like that which would have such an impact on schools' opening if the results were not good. Regardless of reduced transmission I think 'no transmission' is wishful thinking. It was also mentioned that a young parent/carer would almost certainly be ok anyway, in a not dying way. Transmission of course which stops at that one parent/carer because that's how the virus works right?


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 2, 2021)

NAHT has commenced legal proceedings against the DfE. They are awaiting a response.






						Update regarding start of term sent to members on 2 Jan 2021
					






					www.naht.org.uk
				




plus NEU about to advise members to refuse to return to f2f teaching.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm seriously not "monstering" anyone, but I cannot fathom why every person cannot wear a mask and maintain social distancing while chatting. There has to be some measure of personal responsibility here



I think we all have the tendency to do that when we're frightened, in fact it's inevitable. It wasn't a comment on you in particular, that's the point.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 2, 2021)

Thora said:


> My local secondary is advertising for people to do the testing, £10 an hour no experience necessary.



£10 /hr is more than most "essential workers" get. I feel well paid at an agency for £9.50/hr, a lot of the people I work with get less. I don't know how much a little COVID testing 'should' be waged at but I imagine £10/hr is meant to look appealing to people who are either out of work or on minimum wage.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I think there is a 'monstering' of the virus, something deadly we don't understand much about, and any monstering of people comes from this when those people make themselves possible suspects in the transmission of the virus. I think that's unavoidable. And in may circumstances healthy, literally, if it changes minds and saves lives.
> 
> I can't see the school gates as a red herring. While transmission may be reduced, maybe even a lot, I can't deny airborne transmission outside like some people here seem happy to believe. We aren't going to know because no study is likely to be done like that which would have such an impact on schools' opening if the results were not good. Regardless of reduced transmission I think 'no transmission' is wishful thinking. It was also mentioned that a young parent/carer would almost certainly be ok anyway, in a not dying way. Transmission of course which stops at that one parent/carer because that's how the virus works right?



I think the 1-1 individualist model is so powerful it's almost impossible to think of 1 as being at the centre of many. Some better visuals would have been helpful, numbers are too abstract.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I guess what I'm questioning is more the ability for the virus to transmit in the outdoors where people may be close together but not right on top of each other and not for a very extended period of time.


It's a gradient - obviously, there's not a single point where "You will catch and die" flips into "just peachy".

So, distance will be a factor...but I suspect that even at 2m, with someone with a high viral load and the wind in the right direction, infection could occur. But at (say) 1m, that risk has probably risen exponentially. Same with masks, time duration, etc.

And, since we've got no way of knowing, in the moment, what the risk is, the general presumption is to stay away from people as far as possible, wear masks, etc.

And then that has to be balanced against the very human desire to connect, speak, interact, and so on.

So, anyone doing pretty much anything within a number of metres is already engaged in a trade-off. Some of those tradeoffs (maskless large protests) will seem unreasonable to most people; others (going shopping to buy essentials) will generally be seen as acceptable, even though both will involve some level of risk.

But the bottom line is: short of isolating yourself away from every other human being, there's no such thing as a no-risk situation.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

This is good; Williamson has 'lost the room' now and won't be getting schools back any time soon.
Sure the Daily Mail will blame the _marxist _Headteachers etc. but they do that anyway, whatever.
Looks like the unions will be driving the only public health policy wrt to schools in this country.
What an utter clusterfuck the clown-car government are.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

For once the management & workforce unions appear in lockstep; teachers write letter to heads saying they're not coming because workplace is not safe; heads say OK.
Good.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

Has there ever been a better reason to strike?


----------



## nagapie (Jan 2, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I can't see the school gates as a red herring. While transmission may be reduced, maybe even a lot, I can't deny airborne transmission outside like some people here seem happy to believe. We aren't going to know because no study is likely to be done like that which would have such an impact on schools' opening if the results were not good. Regardless of reduced transmission I think 'no transmission' is wishful thinking. It was also mentioned that a young parent/carer would almost certainly be ok anyway, in a not dying way. Transmission of course which stops at that one parent/carer because that's how the virus works right?


I think outside transmission where the vast majority are trying to maintain some sort of distance and many wearing masks is going to be negligable transmission, not none. There's always a chance. Just thought the worry about it was disproportionate. 
I'm not talking about whether the young transmit it or not, they clearly transmit the fuck out of it based on the last term's schooling figures.


----------



## killer b (Jan 2, 2021)

I wonder what value there is, after almost 12 months of some people not_ taking personal responsibility_, of getting angry about it tbh. There will always be a visible minority of people who forget, or who don't care, or who think it's nonsense. They'll always be more prominent to the observer than the people who are diligently socially distancing etc. 

What's the point in stressing yourself out about these people? It's not going to affect their behaviour, but it will make you miserable.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

People get angry when they're scared and it's a visible target when the real threat is invisible.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder what value there is, after almost 12 months of some people not_ taking personal responsibility_, of getting angry about it tbh. There will always be a visible minority of people who forget, or who don't care, or who think it's nonsense. They'll always be more prominent to the observer than the people who are diligently socially distancing etc.
> 
> What's the point in stressing yourself out about these people? It's not going to affect their behaviour, but it will make you miserable.


It's not a choice, though you are right, as is Red Cat


----------



## killer b (Jan 2, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> People get angry when they're scared and it's a visible target when the real threat is invisible.


Oh I know - but I think it's a pretty destructive (and self destructive) way of being angry. It comes from a similar place to the people who blame polish immigration to their neighbourhoods for changes wrought by neoliberal political policies, and indeed people who blame racist old men in the north for the EU referendum result and an 80 seat tory majority.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> Oh I know - but I think it's a pretty destructive (and self destructive) way of being angry. It comes from a similar place to the people who blame polish immigration to their neighbourhoods for changes wrought by neoliberal political policies, and indeed people who blame racist old men in the north for the EU referendum result and an 80 seat tory majority.



Except the people blaming Poles have no rational basis for doing so. And 'being Polish' is not the same thing as choosing to do or not do something.

Nice try though, don't get me wrong. A solid 6/10.


----------



## killer b (Jan 2, 2021)

S☼I said:


> It's not a choice, though you are right, as is Red Cat


I disagree, I think it is a choice. I get cross in the moment when I'm in the supermarket and someone barrels past with their nose poking out of their mask, or when someone looms too close to me when I'm in the park or whatever - it's pretty stressful being about people atm, as that kind of thing probably happens most times I'm out. I reckon the measures I take are probably not so diligently applied that I don't occasionally cause alarm in other people too.

Early on in the pandemic, I did get pretty depressed about this kind of stuff and how it reflected on society as a whole. I changed my mind on that though, after realising that it is a minority of people, and a minority of interactions. You can't ever get 100% observance, 100% of the time, and even a very small percentage of non-compliance appears massive, as those complying are much less visible.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> Oh I know - but I think it's a pretty destructive (and self destructive) way of being angry. It comes from a similar place to the people who blame polish immigration to their neighbourhoods for changes wrought by neoliberal political policies, and indeed people who blame racist old men in the north for the EU referendum result and an 80 seat tory majority.



I agree that the same processes are involved but I think unless we acknowledge how we all do this in different ways when we feel under threat it just becomes another division - those who understand and seem to rise above it and those that are consumed with destructive hatred. And it's so much easier to be understanding when others are expressing indignation. I certainly find that its a powerful impetus to step back and think more.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

To clarify the above - we are all able to step back and reflect _and_ feel angry and blaming sometimes and depending on what we're faced with in others, one or the other might come to the fore. It's easy for the angry state of mind to come to the fore when it seems that others are making excuses and for a more thoughtful state of mind when someone else expresses anger. They're both aspects of ourselves. 

Not sure if that's clearer or that it matters much anyway to anyone.


----------



## Aladdin (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I think outside transmission where the vast majority are trying to maintain some sort of distance and many wearing masks is going to be negligable transmission, not none. There's always a chance. Just thought the worry about it was disproportionate.
> I'm not talking about whether the young transmit it or not, they clearly transmit the fuck out of it based on the last term's schooling figures.




Its interesting how the research cited for children being safe has neglected to inlude reference to the research done by Harvard stating that children can be completely asymptomatic yet carry a heavier viral load of c19 than an ICU patient. 

Children unfortuntely can be transmitters. 









						Looking at children as the silent spreaders of SARS-CoV-2
					

A new study has found that children infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 were shown to have a significantly higher level of virus in their airways than hospitalized adults in ICUs for COVID-19 treatment.




					news.harvard.edu


----------



## chilango (Jan 2, 2021)

NEU says schools are unsafe and its members shouldn't go in.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 2, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Its interesting how the research cited for children being safe has neglected to inlude reference to the research done by Harvard stating that children can be completely asymptomatic yet carry a heavier viral load of c19 than an ICU patient.
> 
> Children unfortuntely can be transmitters.
> 
> ...


I know.


----------



## LDC (Jan 2, 2021)

Hopefully we are (painfully) creeping towards all schools shut for at least 2 weeks.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> NEU says schools are unsafe and its members shouldn't go in.



I like the description above of Williamson having "lost the room", but it does actually begin to look as if the Government is losing any kind of grip on the situation overall. I can see this snowballing, to the point that we end up with a kind of de facto general strike.


----------



## LDC (Jan 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I like the description above of Williamson having "lost the room", but it does actually begin to look as if the Government is losing any kind of grip on the situation overall. I can see this snowballing, to the point that we end up with a kind of de facto general strike.



I think between this, teacher and child sickness, and the unwillingness of some parents/carers to send their kids in I can't see them opening now tbh.


----------



## Aladdin (Jan 2, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I know.



Yep. I was just posting in agreement 👍🙂


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 2, 2021)

How the fuck has it come to this? Less than 48 hours before kids are due back and we have... this. This government is fundamentally broken at a basic level.


----------



## Aladdin (Jan 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I like the description above of Williamson having "lost the room", but it does actually begin to look as if the Government is losing any kind of grip on the situation overall. I can see this snowballing, to the point that we end up with a kind of de facto general strike.




Hope the INTO follow suit over here.
Government still waxing lyrical about keeping schools open fully.
They cant even look at half in half out or alternative options. Bear in mind class sizes here are the largest in Europe.  Up to 36 kids in quite small rooms. Nuts.


----------



## campanula (Jan 2, 2021)

I am not seeing the logic  for closing secondaties while keeping primaries open. As the simplest illustration I can think of - nits. These were an absolute plague throughout primary school and more or less stopped during the far less intensively close contact in secondary schools. Would bet my last ££ that primary schools have a higher transmission rate than secondaries.
Whatever - it's obvious to me that ruling powers will ALWAYS prioritise profit and power over health (back to the trenches). We have to make our own decisions and if we can do it with an element of collective bargaining, so much the better.than


----------



## LDC (Jan 2, 2021)

campanula said:


> I am not seeing the logic  for closing secindaties while keeping primaries open.



My understanding is that it's partly that secondary school age kids are more likely to not need childcare, so will not interfere with the work of their parents/carers as much as having primary school age kids out of school.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 2, 2021)

It's also about a balance of harms - primary school kids are just as likely to spread it as senior school kids, so you get the same benefit if you close the schools, but you get far greater harms from keeping junior school kids off than you do with senior school kids: older kids are much better at remote learning than younger kids, and younger kids suffer a far greater impact on their emotional/social development than older kids.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It's also about a balance of harms - primary school kids are just as likely to spread it as senior school kids, so you get the same benefit if you close the schools, but you get far greater harms from keeping junior school kids off than you do with senior school kids: older kids are much better at remote learning than younger kids, and younger kids suffer a far greater impact on their emotional/social development than older kids.



This is why prioritising the 'exam year' kids seems so wrong. The youngest kids should be prioritised, if anyone. Because of their social and emotional needs, and also the childcare needs if they're at home.


----------



## maomao (Jan 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It's also about a balance of harms - primary school kids are just as likely to spread it as senior school kids, so you get the same benefit if you close the schools, but you get far greater harms from keeping junior school kids off than you do with senior school kids: older kids are much better at remote learning than younger kids, and younger kids suffer a far greater impact on their emotional/social development than older kids.


A fifteen year old with a laptop just needs lunch chucked at them and they will probably get something useful done at some point but a five year old requires constant attention and deliberate teaching.


----------



## Winot (Jan 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I disagree, I think it is a choice.



Dangerously close to a ‘bootstraps’ philosophy for those with anxiety issues there.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> NEU says schools are unsafe and its members shouldn't go in.




NASUWT is calling for all schools to close, but seem to have stopped short of advising members not to go to work.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> This is why prioritising the 'exam year' kids seems so wrong. The youngest kids should be prioritised, if anyone. Because of their social and emotional needs, and also the childcare needs if they're at home.


This is what you get from a government who knows nothing of a world outside the one with nannies and boarding schools.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Jan 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I like the description above of Williamson having "lost the room", but it does actually begin to look as if the Government is losing any kind of grip on the situation overall. I can see this snowballing, to the point that we end up with a kind of de facto general strike.



Why can't the NEU call a strike now? This plan of copying a template letter is just putting the responsibility on individual teachers. Even if it's legally sound, many will still be intimidated to go to work on Monday if their head says so.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I disagree, I think it is a choice. I get cross in the moment when I'm in the supermarket and someone barrels past with their nose poking out of their mask, or when someone looms too close to me when I'm in the park or whatever - it's pretty stressful being about people atm, as that kind of thing probably happens most times I'm out. I reckon the measures I take are probably not so diligently applied that I don't occasionally cause alarm in other people too.
> 
> Early on in the pandemic, I did get pretty depressed about this kind of stuff and how it reflected on society as a whole. I changed my mind on that though, after realising that it is a minority of people, and a minority of interactions. You can't ever get 100% observance, 100% of the time, and even a very small percentage of non-compliance appears massive, as those complying are much less visible.



Maybe some people can fight off the anger and fear and all the other emotions that come from seeing people doing selfish, foolish, dangerous stuff on a daily basis, but it's a job of work. It takes conscious effort, on an ongoing basis. That's on top of everything you have to do to avoid getting sick or spreading the virus yourself. It's exhausting. And exhaustion  makes it harder to do the kind of mental work that's needed to accept the fact that x percent of those around you don't give a shit, don't want to make any kind of effort at all, and that people will die as a result of that.

I'm not a 'personal responsibility' type as a rule. But I do stop short of making excuses for the behaviour of people who don't seem to believe in any kind of responsibility or any kind of consequences at all.

E2a: Anyway, derail concluded.


----------



## elbows (Jan 2, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> My understanding is that it's partly that secondary school age kids are more likely to not need childcare, so will not interfere with the work of their parents/carers as much as having primary school age kids out of school.



Yes.

Another factor is the size of institution. Primaries tend to be much smaller, and in the younger age groups I expect there is much less moving and mixing on site. 

Big is bad in this pandemic. And that includes schools as well as size of towns & cities and care homes, where larger care homes have more risk of outbreaks and the outbreaks will also be larger.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 2, 2021)

I think the biggest difference between the spread in primary and secondary, is down to bubble sizes and it also being easier to ensure less mixing between bubbles on the journey to and from school and during breaks etc.


----------



## bimble (Jan 2, 2021)

Has the Labour Party said anything at all about this incredible latest clusterfuck ? Or is starmer going to stay quiet because he can’t be sure if the majority of voters are on the same side as the teachers unions etc.


----------



## klang (Jan 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Has the Labour Party said anything at all about this incredible latest clusterfuck ? Or is starmer going to stay quiet because he can’t be sure if the majority of voters are on the same side as the teachers unions etc.


i was wondering the same. incredible how spineless they seem to be, now that an opposition is needed more than ever.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Has the Labour Party said anything at all about this incredible latest clusterfuck ? Or is starmer going to stay quiet because he can’t be sure if the majority of voters are on the same side as the teachers unions etc.


Managing to achieve astro zen levels of fucking pointlessness.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Has the Labour Party said anything at all about this incredible latest clusterfuck ? Or is starmer going to stay quiet because he can’t be sure if the majority of voters are on the same side as the teachers unions etc.



He hasn't got it in him to side with a union on anything.


----------



## elbows (Jan 2, 2021)

I have not yet read the recently released SAGE documents mentioned in this article, but I will.









						Covid fears spark revolt by unions over return to school in England
					

Headteachers take legal action against government as UK’s largest teaching union says members should not go back




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## killer b (Jan 2, 2021)

Winot said:


> Dangerously close to a ‘bootstraps’ philosophy for those with anxiety issues there.


as is banging on about how people should take more personal responsibility if you're going down that road


----------



## teqniq (Jan 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Has the Labour Party said anything at all about this incredible latest clusterfuck ? Or is starmer going to stay quiet because he can’t be sure if the majority of voters are on the same side as the teachers unions etc.


This is pretty apposite imo:


----------



## elbows (Jan 2, 2021)

This bit from one of the SAGE documents is key to me:



> It is not known whether measures with similar stringency and adherence as Spring, with both primary and secondary schools closed, would be sufficient to bring R below 1 in the presence of the new variant. The introduction of Tier 4 measures in England combined with the school holidays will be informative of the strength of measures required to control the new variant but analysis of this will not be possible until mid-January.



From https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/948606/s0991-sage-meeting-74-covid-19.pdf

I believe in data and evidence based approaches but also taking sensible, cautious, proactive measures whilst waiting for better data and analysis to energe. The very least authorities in this situation should be doing is keeping schools shut until at least mid-January when we will have a better understanding of how much difference measures have on this new variant/this pandemic in general during winter. I dont expect the data and analysis to be perfect even then, and Christmas behaviours are a complicating factor, and the time period that can be analysed is relatively short, but at least we have had school holidays to give clues about how much difference school closures can make. We just have to get through several more weeks to even find that bit out.

Its a tragedy that this level of focus on the schools risk didnt happen a month ago, since it could have made a difference to various parts of the south and east. Keeping schools shut in London etc is now just part of trying to cope with the peak demand on hospitals, rather than something more pro-active. I suspect its very important that these things like school closures happen in other parts of the country now, in order that a difference can be made before the same phenomenon repeats there. Especially since many places in the midlands and north have not seen hospital levels go down enough after their autumn and early winter woes, so capacity there is starting from a worse position than London and the Souths was before the rates shot up there. If an increase in hospitalisations now happens in the midlands and north in the same way as has happened in the south, things could be overwhemled quite rapidly. The midlands is already teasing this, but it isnt yet clear whether thats being driven by the new variant yet.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is pretty apposite imo:
> 
> View attachment 246703



Can't name anyone on Labour's front bench besides Keith tbh.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 2, 2021)

Gossip from a Junior school in a T4 area in the West Midlands.

SLT are preparing for F2F school for the first week in Jan (on the basis that it's Saturday, it's simply too late for parents to make alternate arrangements for Monday), but then school will go to remote learning from the second week in Jan to the Feb half term, with kids of critical workers and vunerable kids in for F2F.

There's no direction from DFE, this is the result of a conversation between heads and LEA. It may come to pass, it may not. Contingency planning, but on the safe bet side of the possibilities....


----------



## teqniq (Jan 2, 2021)

Petition here:









						Make Schools Safe and Protect Communities
					

I just signed this NEU petition to keep families and schools safe. All schools and colleges should move immediately to online learning other than for vulnerable children and those of key workers until the Government is able to get the virus under control.



					actionnetwork.org


----------



## kebabking (Jan 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Petition here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've. or I have...


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 2, 2021)

Brighton and Hove council have now also written to Williamson requesting we be added to the list - our rates have been shooting up.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Has the Labour Party said anything at all about this incredible latest clusterfuck ? Or is starmer going to stay quiet because he can’t be sure if the majority of voters are on the same side as the teachers unions etc.



“_These strikes are wrong at a time when negotiations are going on”_


----------



## elbows (Jan 2, 2021)

Regarding Labour, they just see it as an opportunity to point out past pandemic failings. and have pissed me off by evoking the dreaded spectre of fucking Covid secure workplaces. Fuck the fuck off with this wholly inadequate stance. Covid secure my arse, thats bogus shit and enables crimes against public health to be committed and justified by the establishment.



Or at least I'm not aware of any teachers etc who are desperately waiting for reassurances that their workplaces are Covid secure, that bullshit and who falls for it is hardly the pressing issue that has lead to this moment now is it? Since last I checked WHO advice did not include the possibility that people could shield themselves indoors by hiding behind empty reassurances.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

Is this streeting bloke their education person then? Because I can only assume from his 'covid secure workplace' line that he's never been to a school.

Just another example of labour mindlessly parotting the idiotic buzzwords of business/the tories and thus captiulating utterly before they've even started to do whatever pathetic thing it is this time.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 2, 2021)

elbows said:


> Regarding Labour, they just see it as an opportunity to point out past pandemic failings. and have pissed me off by evoking the dreaded spectre of fucking Covid secure workplaces. Fuck the fuck off with this wholly inadequate stance. Covid secure my arse, thats bogus shit and enables crimes against public health to be committed and justified by the establishment.
> 
> 
> 
> *Or at least I'm not aware of any teachers etc who are desperately waiting for reassurances that their workplaces are Covid secure, that bullshit *and who falls for it is hardly the pressing issue that has lead to this moment now is it? Since last I checked WHO advice did not include the possibility that people could shield themselves indoors by hiding behind empty reassurances.




Well said.

Bit in bold. My own school have done what they can, the best they can, but the SLT have never once pretended we can be Covid secure and have never used that language. The only place I hear it is from politicians (and media parroting them). It pisses me off too. Bland fucking simple phrase to cover the arses of people wishing to enact economic priorities over health, while pretending it's all about caring for our health.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 2, 2021)

We have inset day on Monday so gives a little bit more time for decisions to be made. Tier 3 here so I can see it being open, I think the Head will want to stay open.  Not a big problem either way, if school is closed I won’t need to be there working as much, so will be able to look after the kids at home. The youngest goes to a childminder two days a week, not sure what will happen there, if they will be required to close as with the previous lockdown.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 2, 2021)

Ours are not due to be back in school face to face until the 18th at least. If the Scottish numbers continue rising I fully expect an announcement delaying that.


----------



## klang (Jan 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> The youngest goes to a childminder two days a week, not sure what will happen there, if they will be required to close as with the previous lockdown.


mine is supposed to start next week, really unsure what to do about it. OH is a teacher. If her SEN school remains open we might have to bite the bullet and send him to day care.
If child minders close down and she has to go to work we are screwed.


----------



## Thora (Jan 2, 2021)

I was one of the few childminders locally who stayed open through the whole lockdown last time but I will close if schools close here.  I don't think early years will be instructed/forced to close this time though.


----------



## klang (Jan 2, 2021)

still a big question whether to actually send him in....


----------



## Thora (Jan 2, 2021)

littleseb said:


> still a big question whether to actually send him in....


A small childminding setting is pretty safe.  I have 4 early years children and we don't go anywhere or do anything risky - just meet up with another childminder for a walk or go to a socially distanced music class.  It's easy to ensure hands are washed and to keep a small home clean, monitor children coming in with symptoms or temperatures.
It's totally different from a nursery or school where there are large numbers of children over the week all mixing and sharing toys.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 2, 2021)

littleseb said:


> still a big question whether to actually send him in....



Big decision that can only be made by you in your context - we'll send ours in because the school experience is good for them, and if they do bring it back there's no one they are in regular/close contact with who's on the more vunerable list. 

But it's a question with as many right answers as there are families. Everyone's context is different, so everyone's in answer will be different.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

We had an email from the school saying happy new year see you on Monday, parents please wear masks. 

I still don't know what to do. Very weak union presence at the school, so i expect no resistance there. I wish they'd just close for a fortnight, this is a shit position to be in. At least 5 of the class got it just before xmas, so it feels quite close, although some will have some immunity now.


----------



## klang (Jan 2, 2021)

Thora said:


> A small childminding setting is pretty safe.  I have 4 early years children and we don't go anywhere or do anything risky - just meet up with another childminder for a walk or go to a socially distanced music class.  It's easy to ensure hands are washed and to keep a small home clean, monitor children coming in with symptoms or temperatures.
> It's totally different from a nursery or school where there are large numbers of children over the week all mixing and sharing toys.


yes, I'm thinking along similar lines.
That's why we decided on a child minder rather than a nursery. Full on lockdown baby, him.


----------



## Thora (Jan 2, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> We had an email from the school saying happy new year see you on Monday, parents please wear masks.
> 
> I still don't know what to do. Very weak union presence at the school, so i expect no resistance there. I wish they'd just close for a fortnight, this is a shit position to be in. At least 5 of the class got it just before xmas, so it feels quite close, although some will have some immunity now.


I am in the same position but feel like it could all be different in 24 hours anyway, so trying not to make any decisions yet!


----------



## Thora (Jan 2, 2021)

littleseb said:


> yes, I'm thinking along similar lines.
> That's why we decided on a child minder rather than a nursery. Full on lockdown baby, him.


I didn't even have a child with a cold from March-August, when the schools reopened in September my 3 year old started part time nursery and had caught covid within a week


----------



## klang (Jan 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Big decision that can only be made by you in your context - we'll send ours in because the school experience is good for them, and if they do bring it back there's no one they are in regular/close contact with who's on the more vunerable list.
> 
> But it's a question with as many right answers as there are families. Everyone's context is different, so everyone's in answer will be different.


Trouble is my partner works in an SEN school with mostly PMLD kids. She's been off on maternity for a full year, but went back just before christmas. She was shocked how little was in place to make the place as secure as possible. She's not looking forward to going back at all, Unions are now involved, etc.
If the little one picks it up from child care and passes it on to her she would put many seriously vulnerable kids at risk.
Also vice versa, if she brings it back from school she'd open up all sort of probs for quite a few families.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 2, 2021)

Actually glad we know our kids' schools are shutting as at least we have certainty


----------



## klang (Jan 2, 2021)

Thora said:


> I didn't even have a child with a cold from March-August, when the schools reopened in September my 3 year old started part time nursery and had caught covid within a week


fuck


----------



## maomao (Jan 2, 2021)

Thora said:


> A small childminding setting is pretty safe.  I have 4 early years children and we don't go anywhere or do anything risky - just meet up with another childminder for a walk or go to a socially distanced music class.  It's easy to ensure hands are washed and to keep a small home clean, monitor children coming in with symptoms or temperatures.
> It's totally different from a nursery or school where there are large numbers of children over the week all mixing and sharing toys.


My boy goes to a medium sized nursery (supposedly 60 kids but very few full time, seems to average 15ish a day) and they've just sent us an email ensuring us that they are Covid free and taking all possible precautions. In other words send your kid or we'll keep your deposit and I suppose she's entitled to in a way. And obviously she's scared of losing the business. 

I get 85% of his fees paid by student finance and my wife wants to offer her the 85% to keep his place open (ie. so we don't pay anything at all). I think this is a bad idea and bound to lead to trouble. On the other hand neither of us really want to send him. I don't think we'd come to harm but feel we should just do as much as we can to batten down the hatches for this part of the storm.


----------



## Thora (Jan 2, 2021)

maomao said:


> My boy goes to a medium sized nursery (supposedly 60 kids but very few full time, seems to average 15ish a day) and they've just sent us an email ensuring us that they are Covid free and taking all possible precautions. In other words send your kid or we'll keep your deposit and I suppose she's entitled to in a way. And obviously she's scared of losing the business.
> 
> I get 85% of his fees paid by student finance and my wife wants to offer her the 85% to keep his place open (ie. so we don't pay anything at all). I think this is a bad idea and bound to lead to trouble. On the other hand neither of us really want to send him. I don't think we'd come to harm but feel we should just do as much as we can to batten down the hatches for this part of the storm.


Why is it a bad idea?


----------



## maomao (Jan 2, 2021)

Thora said:


> Why is it a bad idea?


Likelihood of getting caught. Dishonest use of a benefit.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 2, 2021)

Thora said:


> I am in the same position but feel like it could all be different in 24 hours anyway, so trying not to make any decisions yet!



Yes. I'm waiting anxiously for some new news before tomorrow afternoon at which point i'll have to make a decision.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If next week we're on X hundred dead daily and X thousand daily infections and both are still rising (as looks inevitable for a couple more weeks) how the fuck will it look like a good plan to open schools on top of that? At what point will they backtrack, or will it just fall apart from non-attendance and sickness?


about as good a plan as the "have a good ol knees up at Xmas" plan


----------



## ash (Jan 3, 2021)

And where is our great leader ????


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 3, 2021)

I note that the main BBC article tonight has quotes from just one parent, someone who doesn’t want schools to close. No word from anyone living in a multigenerational home, or from someone clinically vulnerable. This is what they do now, play the government’s line.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I note that the main BBC article tonight has quotes from just one parent, someone who doesn’t want schools to close. No word from anyone living in a multigenerational home, or from someone clinically vulnerable. This is what they do now, play the government’s line.


I'm living in a multi generation home with someone who is clinically vulnerable. It's horrible, isn't it. My kids are going to key worker school but it still feels like I am putting my folks at risk all the time. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 3, 2021)




----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 3, 2021)

ash said:


> And where is our great leader ????



I believe he's on the Andrew Marr show in the morning.


----------



## ash (Jan 3, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> I believe he's on the Andrew Marr show in the morning


I wonder what bumbling, waffling, un- coiffured nonsense we will have the privilege of hearing 🙄


----------



## Badgers (Jan 3, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> I believe he's on the Andrew Marr show in the morning.


Suspect he will turn up late, looking bedraggled, sniffing constantly and smelling of turps. Claiming credit for our new sovereignty and the sunlit uplands of tampon tax.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2021)

I'm not a teacher so don't know if it's fair but this is my suspicion of many head teachers


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 3, 2021)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Why can't the NEU call a strike now? This plan of copying a template letter is just putting the responsibility on individual teachers. Even if it's legally sound, many will still be intimidated to go to work on Monday if their head says so.


It's actually illegal for unions to organise their members to use section 44 to collectively refuse to work. 
To call a strike for protected industrial action would take weeks. Of course the union could back wildcat action but that would lead to all sorts of legal problems, and frankly considering its membership I'm not sure how much appetite for such a step there would be.

Whatever its faults the NEU is using s44 much more aggressively than other unions (and TBH further than I thought they would).


elbows said:


> Regarding Labour, they just see it as an opportunity to point out past pandemic failings. and have pissed me off by evoking the dreaded spectre of fucking Covid secure workplaces. Fuck the fuck off with this wholly inadequate stance. Covid secure my arse, thats bogus shit and enables crimes against public health to be committed and justified by the establishment.


Absolutely. The LPs response exposes the nonsense of the fuckups being simply a result of the Tory government. The strategy of the LP is the same as that as the strategy of the government (and of course LP is in power in Wales and its record there is hardly brilliant), like the government it is ignoring advice that schools and universities should be close. Like the government the LPs (and other parties) economic response is targeted at support business not supporting workers.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 3, 2021)

If they do not close the schools and enforce a national lockdown there has to be a retaliation. It has been well beyond negligence for a long time now.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 3, 2021)

Press look to have been leant on today, especially the BBC. It‘s being shut down as an issue.


----------



## maomao (Jan 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Press look to have been leant on today, especially the BBC. It‘s being shut down as an issue.


British Bootlicking Corporation don't take much leaning on these days.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Press look to have been leant on today, especially the BBC. It‘s being shut down as an issue.



Yeah the headline is 'closing schools bad' says chief inspector of schools, ie not a scientist a doctor or a teacher. This is what the state is doing instead of getting their inevitable u-turn in early and actually just doing the right thing in the first place. Of course closing schools with < 24 hours notice is hardly the right thing, but it's still the best option on the table.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

First instinct is always to control the narrative, not the situation. They've learned absolutely nothing in the last year. They still don't get that viruses are not susceptible to propaganda.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Press look to have been leant on today, especially the BBC. It‘s being shut down as an issue.


By 'Press' do you mean spokespersons and especially the BBC?


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

They're gonna wait until the virus has had a few days to circulate before u-turning aren't they?


----------



## flypanam (Jan 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah the headline is 'closing schools bad' says chief inspector of schools, ie not a scientist a doctor or a teacher. This is what the state is doing instead of getting their inevitable u-turn in early and actually just doing the right thing in the first place. Of course closing schools with < 24 hours notice is hardly the right thing, but it's still the best option on the table.


Indeed she is not








						Amanda Spielman
					

Amanda Spielman has been Ofsted Chief Inspector since 2017. She was previously chair of the exam regulator Ofqual from 2011 to 2016, and a founding member of the leadership team at the multi-academy trust Ark Schools. Before that she spent more than 15 years in strategy consulting, finance and...




					www.gov.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Indeed she is not
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Founding member of an academy chain leadership. So, very much 'part of the problem' 
then.

E2a: I scrolled down a bit. She was in 'strategy consulting' apparently. That sounds like a real thing that really needs doing.


----------



## LDC (Jan 3, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


>




That looks very SWP-ish? Is it connected?


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That looks very SWP-ish? Is it connected?


had a dig through who they're following and it looks mostly Labour/union left rather than SWP, although I came across this cursed group.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Founding member of an academy chain leadership. So, very much 'part of the problem'
> then.
> 
> E2a: I scrolled down a bit. She was in 'strategy consulting' apparently. That sounds like a real thing that really needs doing.


Is there _any_ non-medical job that has “consultant” as part of its title that is actually worthwhile?


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Is there _any_ non-medical job that has “consultant” as part of its title that is actually worthwhile?


Boringly, the answer to this is 'yes'.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 3, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Is there _any_ non-medical job that has “consultant” as part of its title that is actually worthwhile?



My dad used to be a consultant for pharmaceutical companies looking to get a license for drugs in the UK. He was previously a senior assessor at the MHRA and for a while worked as self employed, advising companies on how to write their applications, whether they were likely to get a license for their drug, what clinical trials they needed to do and what evidence they needed to present. That included telling companies their drug wasn’t safe or didn’t have sufficient efficacy. Always felt like a pretty worthwhile job to me, even if it was a wanky title. He wasn’t a consultant in a hospital. He was a doctor though, if that influences the worthwhileness stakes.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 3, 2021)

Bojo has just said on Marr that schools are safe and parents should send their kids on Monday. They're just setting up a fight here - the Tories are more interested in smashing the teachers' unions than they are in saving people's lives.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 3, 2021)

God he is just horrendous.


----------



## magneze (Jan 3, 2021)

Notice a small change in what they're following. Now it's "public health advisors" rather than "the science".


----------



## weepiper (Jan 3, 2021)

magneze said:


> Notice a small change in what they're following. Now it's "public health advisors" rather than "the science".


Depends on which public health advisors you choose to listen to, of course.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 3, 2021)

A BBC article yesterday had Creepy Williamson closing _the rest of the primary schools in London_ with no mention of the u-turn he was forced to make due to his utter stupidity


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 3, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That looks very SWP-ish? Is it connected?


Dont think so. It came to me via lleft abour party friend


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 3, 2021)

Andrew Marr Show this morning.

Prof. Sir Mark Walport FRS FRCP FRCPath FMedSci FRSE (SAGE):  "We know that transmission occurs within schools.  We know that a person between 12 and 16 is seven times more likely than others in a household to bring an infection into a household".

Boris: "Schools are safe, the risk to young people is very very small as scientists continually attest, the risk to staff is very small."  

I personally know of at least 7 colleagues who have had Covid over Christmas plus numerous students and children, including my daughter and many many of their family members.  Some of these people have been really very unwell.  Some have been hospitalised.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 3, 2021)

NEU live call now


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> NEU live call now




Reported 26k members in attendance!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 3, 2021)

chilango said:


> Reported 26k members in attendance!



Mrs MacNeice is taking part as I type this. I'm very proud.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. Twitter saying 40,000+ taking part.


----------



## Mation (Jan 3, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> NEU live call now



Blimey. That final bit thanking teachers made me cry.

And "now is the time to say no." That's not beating around the bush, is it.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 3, 2021)

Mation said:


> Blimey. That final bit thanking teachers made me cry.
> 
> And "now is the time to say no." That's not beating around the bush, is it.


Me too
It was what was needed saying. Very much thinking about finding out more about the NEU

Geezer reported that overall almost 100,000 people watched at least some of it. I only caught the last 20 mins or so


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 3, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> Andrew Marr Show this morning.
> 
> Prof. Sir Mark Walport FRS FRCP FRCPath FMedSci FRSE (SAGE):  "We know that transmission occurs within schools.  We know that a person between 12 and 16 is seven times more likely than others in a household to bring an infection into a household".
> 
> ...



And they wouldn't even shut schools just a few days early. Forced them to stay open even. One action that actually could  have gone some way to 'saving Christmas'. Apart from all the other fuck ups that makes me so angry. How many people would not have caught it if they'd closed early? How many will be severely ill or die?

And scotland was as bad. Schools finish just a couple of days before christmas and closing early  was discussed but didnt happen.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 3, 2021)

quimcunx said:


> And they wouldn't even shut schools just a few days early. Forced them to stay open even. Apart from all the other fuck ups that makes me so angry. How many people would not have caught it if they'd closed early? How many will be severely ill or die?
> 
> And scotland was as bad. Schools finish just a couple of days before christmas and closing early  was discussed but didnt happen.



At least 5 children (that i know of as in touch with their parents) in my 9 year old's class got it in the last week of school, and their parents, one of whom has an underlying condition (but not extremely clinically vulnerable) and was really quite poorly with it.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> At least 5 children in my 9 year old's class got it in the last week of school, and their parents, one of whom has an underlying condition (but not extremely clinically vulnerable) and was really quite poorly with it.



Think what those diagrams would look like. Those ones with little people and how many exponentially they pass it onto. And what happen if you prevent infection at x point.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 3, 2021)

Mation said:


> Blimey. That final bit thanking teachers made me cry.
> 
> And "now is the time to say no." That's not beating around the bush, is it.


The resolve to do the right thing was very heartening


----------



## existentialist (Jan 3, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Me too
> It was what was needed saying. Very much thinking about finding out more about the NEU
> 
> Geezer reported that overall almost 100,000 people watched at least some of it. I only caught the last 20 mins or so


What do you reckon this might do to their recruitment figures?


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

Be prepared for a massive media (and social media) onslaught against teachers tomorrow.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What do you reckon this might do to their recruitment figures?


----------



## teqniq (Jan 3, 2021)

If they do decide to strike they should be offered as much support as possible. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if strike action goes ahead that the vermin attempt to use it as an opportunity to crush the teaching unions.









						Welsh teachers’ union threaten action if schools reopen next week
					

They are the second union calling for schools to move to online learning




					www.dailypost.co.uk


----------



## alex_ (Jan 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> If they do decide to strike they should be offered as much support as possible. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if strike action goes ahead that the vermin attempt to use it as an opportunity to crush the teaching unions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



“we aren’t on strike, we are self isolating”


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 3, 2021)

teachers are bullet catchers for political gain here. anti teacher traitor backlash on its way


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 3, 2021)

They went out of their way to say this is not a strike, labour is not being withdrawn, it is an insistence on working in a different way for safety reasons


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Founding member of an academy chain leadership. So, very much 'part of the problem'
> then.
> 
> E2a: I scrolled down a bit. She was in 'strategy consulting' apparently. That sounds like a real thing that really needs doing.











						Amanda Spielman - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






> Her mother, Olivia Fiona Robinson,[3][4] descends via the O'Brien baronets from the Kings of Thomond.[5]
> 
> Brought up in the Christian faith and educated first at Notre Dame Primary School in Glasgow, before boarding in Dorset from the age of ten, she joined St Paul's Girls' School's sixth form.[6] She then went to Clare College, Cambridge, to read Mathematics and Law, graduating as BA in 1982.[7]
> 
> Her first marriage, in 1983, ended in divorce. She married secondly, in 1996, Adam Justin Spielman MBA, managing director at Citigroup.[8] They live in London and have two children.





> With KMG Thomson McLintock from 1982 to 1986 and then Kleinwort Benson from 1986 to 1992, she served as a director of Newstead Capital from 1992 until 1994[9] and of Bridgewater Business Analysis from 1994 to 1995.
> 
> She became a principal at Mercer Management Consulting in Boston, Massachusetts from 1995 to 1997, then at Nomura Principal Finance from 1997 to 2004.





> In June 2016, Spielman was selected by Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, to take over as Chief Inspector of Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills (Ofsted) to replace Sir Michael Wilshaw. Following a pre-appointment hearing, Spielman's nomination was rejected by the Education Select Committee which expressed concerns about her suitability, citing her lack of teaching experience and her failure to show "passion" and supposed lack of understanding for the "complex role".[15] Mrs Morgan, however, dismissed such objections and in her capacity as Cabinet minister wrote to Neil Carmichael, the Committee's chairman, confirming her appointment of Mrs Spielman.[16]





> In 2018, Spielman supported a primary school headteacher's right to set a uniform policy that did not permit hijab for pupils in Key Stage 1 (ages 4–7). The UK's National Education Union (NEU) exclaimed this was “naked racism dressed up as liberalism”.[17]
> 
> In December 2018, Spielman asserted that basic parenting duties should not be outsourced to schools and teachers: for instance, potty training was “a normal part of parenting in every other country” and it was “startling” that any British parents could allow their children to continue wearing nappies for years.



I'm not convinced she is Covid secure!


----------



## kebabking (Jan 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What do you reckon this might do to their recruitment figures?



Mrs K is going to join them - she's been in NAS/UWT for her whole career.


----------



## baldrick (Jan 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What do you reckon this might do to their recruitment figures?


I'm unison and I've been fairly unimpressed with their approach so far. I think I might have a look at joining NEU.


----------



## maomao (Jan 3, 2021)

I joined the NEU the day I was accepted for my PGCE course (though I've not been active in any way).


----------



## kebabking (Jan 3, 2021)

Director of Public Health in Cumbria has officially asked that primary schools in Cumbria remain closed....


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

I was NUT then NEU after the merger.


----------



## campanula (Jan 3, 2021)

The parents I know (including 2 of my offspring) are pleased to be able to show solidarity with teachers and health workers. And I love the fact that teachers and health workers are co-cordinating this safety campaign since we have no truth, credibility, care or indeed, anything useful coming out of Westminster


----------



## Badgers (Jan 3, 2021)

Would be nice to see a move towards a general strike in solidaridy with the teachers


----------



## maomao (Jan 3, 2021)

Does S44 apply to trainee teachers and students or do you have to be employed? I assume that if you were on a work placement arranged through a uni you would make the complaint to the uni rather than the workplace.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 3, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> teachers are bullet catchers for political gain here. anti teacher traitor backlash on its way


They need massive popular support. And the Government should be given no chance to start smearing shit...oh wait, we haven't got an opposition.

They need MAHOOSIVE popular support.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 3, 2021)

maomao said:


> Does S44 apply to trainee teachers and students or do you have to be employed? I assume that if you were on a work placement arranged through a uni you would make the complaint to the uni rather than the workplace.


I expect some cunt will try and split that hair, but as far as I know, the HSW Act applies to anyone in the workplace: Education employers


----------



## campanula (Jan 3, 2021)

Grand-daughter is devastated though - she didn't even want an Xmas holiday after months of not seeing her friends. And she loves school. But...


----------



## Mattym (Jan 3, 2021)

If it came down to a strike, do any NEU members know if there's still a 'conscience clause' like in the days of the NUT, so that members can opt out of a whole union/action within a specific school strike? This is going back a good few years.


----------



## campanula (Jan 3, 2021)

This moment must be siezed. Devon s county council education authorities  handed over administration duties to fucking Babcock International - a fucking arms company. We are on the fucking brink...with Brexit, as well as Covid  as an extra cover for filthy Tory nefarious scumming.. Fucking gravy train.

Apols - a bit manic today


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2021)

Bearing in mind "Schools in England may stay closed for weeks, admits Williamson"
wtf are they pissing about for? The sooner they close the sooner they reopen - delaying just drags it all out by adding more covid spread. I don't see what they hope to gain here


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 3, 2021)

I've finally sent email to our head saying our 9 year old not attending due to her father being clinically vulnerable.


----------



## klang (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Bearing in mind "Schools in England may stay closed for weeks, admits Williamson"
> wtf are they pissing about for? The sooner they close the sooner they reopen - delaying just drags it all out by adding more covid spread. I don't see what they hope to gain here


I'm puzzled too. Surely they know what is said by scientists etc, surely they know the economy will recover sooner the sooner things are 'under control' again.
They even have the perfect excuse for u turns now, a bit of spin would make them look quite good I think.
Is it just them being stubborn?


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 3, 2021)

I have just sat in on NEU local branch and sat in on national meeting this morning as OH is support staff in school. Nobody is discussing strike action yet. They are clear that S44 is about a reasonable belief of risk, that legally nothing of detriment can happen to you if you use S44 and that headteaching unions have advised heads to support their staff who S44. NEU local branch have said that if anybody thinks they are treated detrimentally because of their use of S44, then they would ballot members of that school for strike in solidarity, but they think heads would be stupid to try and do anything in response. That was the only time strike was discussed, except to repeatedly state this is not strike action.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I've finally sent email to our head saying our 9 year old not attending due to her father being clinically vulnerable.



Think you have done the right thing.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2021)

littleseb said:


> Is it just them being stubborn?



From a teacher friend

"The problem is that this is what they want the NEU to do. They are going to have to close them anyway and they know it. This gives them the opportunity to blame teachers and the unions"


----------



## maomao (Jan 3, 2021)

If schools are forced to open, attendance will be even worse than it was last term and loads of kids will miss out on education.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 3, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> Think you have done the right thing.



Had a bit of a wobble just before I sent it when she got upset saying she wants to see her friends but there isn't really a choice.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From a teacher friend
> 
> "The problem is that this is what they want the NEU to do. They are going to have to close them anyway and they know it. This gives them the opportunity to blame teachers and the unions"



I think this is probably right but if it gives teachers a sense of agency and confidence in collective action, then that's a very good thing.


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From a teacher friend
> 
> "The problem is that this is what they want the NEU to do. They are going to have to close them anyway and they know it. This gives them the opportunity to blame teachers and the unions"



Very true.

But after scientists, local authorities etc etc have been ignored it's been left to the one group with power to shut down schools if the government won't.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 3, 2021)

I assume we have all emailed our MP?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I think this is probably right but if it gives teachers a sense of agency and confidence in collective action, then that's a very good thing.


yeah...also im not sure BLAME THE CULTURAL MARXIST INDOCTRINATORS is going to wash...its pretty clear the government are the cuprits in all this


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

...also, successive Tory governments have been poking the teaching Unions relentlessly trying provoke the strike that they intend to use to break them. They've never forgiven them for the strikes in the 80s.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2021)

chilango said:


> Very true.
> 
> But after scientists, local authorities etc etc have been ignored it's been left to the one group with power to shut down schools if the government won't.


Exactly; we know that the Johnson regime will blame cast whatever...in a public health emergency far better that the workers close down the transmission factories whatever the shitty spin from the scum.


----------



## maomao (Jan 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I assume we have all emailed our MP?


I'm not sure mine can read. I've told him what I think of him to his face a couple of times though.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Bearing in mind "Schools in England may stay closed for weeks, admits Williamson"
> wtf are they pissing about for? The sooner they close the sooner they reopen - delaying just drags it all out by adding more covid spread. I don't see what they hope to gain here



It honestly baffles me. I can only think they keep hoping to get away with not taking action. Somehow they'll just get lucky and the numbers wont go up as predicted.


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I assume we have all emailed our MP?



Why bother? He's in the Labour Party.


----------



## LDC (Jan 3, 2021)

littleseb said:


> I'm puzzled too. Surely they know what is said by scientists etc, surely they know the economy will recover sooner the sooner things are 'under control' again.
> They even have the perfect excuse for u turns now, a bit of spin would make them look quite good I think.
> Is it just them being stubborn?



I think it's a mix of things. I don't think of the Tories as 'evil' or some inherently horrible type of person tbh, I think with them there's just a deep seated ideological way of seeing things that they really struggle to get over as it's deeply immersed in most of them from birth through schooling and then employment - if they've even had any that isn't establishment anyway.

But mostly I think the structure, decision making systems, and people in the government and positions of power are used to cruising along pretty easily really, rarely making any difficult decisions and even rarer having to make them under pressure when the answers aren't completely clear, or at least have mixed outcomes. There's just no grand vision or nerve or bravery or leadership, they're bumbling along from crisis to crisis unable to rise to the occasion, being chronically indecisive (a good plan now is better than a perfect plan tomorrow...), and now having lost much of the faith and trust of the public alongside it all. I hate to blame individuals, but Johnson's persona and way of talking exacerbates it all; he looks like he's smirking most of the time, and seems incapable of being clear and inspiring.

They're a fucking jelly of a government and it's a fucking jelly of a system, they've both been put under pressure and have fucking collapsed under it and people are paying the price for it in their lives.

E2A: There's a very good set of scenes in the film 'Eye in the Sky' about drone strikes, and there's a bit that goes on where they all just are incapable of making the decision to strike given some new information, all the way from the PM down. They pathologically pass the buck along, come up with excuses to not make the decision themselves, delegate to junior staff, say it's not their remit, ask for more advice, defer to conflicting experts that then give evidence they can't decide which to go with, etc. all the time just hoping the problem will go away or something will suddenly become clear and make what they have to do blindingly obvious rather than complex and tricky. It's much more like that I think with this lot, all over laid with personal ambition and flaws, and political ideology that wants the status quo maintained under (almost) any circumstances.


----------



## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think it's a mix of things. I don't think of the Tories as 'evil' or some inherently horrible type of person tbh, I think with them there's just a deep seated ideological way of seeing things that they really struggle to get over as it's deeply immersed in most of them from birth through schooling and then employment - if they've even had any that isn't establishment anyway.
> 
> But mostly I think the structure, decision making systems, and people in the government and positions of power are used to cruising along pretty easily really, rarely making any difficult decisions and even rarer having to make them under pressure when the answers aren't completely clear, or at least have mixed outcomes. There's just no grand vision or nerve or bravery or leadership, they're bumbling along from crisis to crisis unable to rise to the occasion, being chronically indecisive (a good plan now is better than a perfect plan tomorrow...), and now having lost much of the faith and trust of the public alongside it all. I hate to blame individuals, but Johnson's persona and way of talking exacerbates it all; he looks like he's smirking most of the time, and seems incapable of being clear and inspiring.
> 
> They're a fucking jelly of a government and it's a fucking jelly of a system, they've both been put under pressure and have fucking collapsed under the pressure and people are paying the price for it in their lives.



laissez-faire.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From a teacher friend
> 
> "The problem is that this is what they want the NEU to do. They are going to have to close them anyway and they know it. This gives them the opportunity to blame teachers and the unions"



“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”

Do you really think they’ve fucked up every single other aspect of the response to covid, but somehow they have their shit together enough to pull this off ?


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2021)

GMB response -




*GMB has been clear from the start of the Covid-19 pandemic that our school-based members’ safety and pay, terms and conditions are GMB’s upmost priority.*

Yesterday (Saturday 2 January) GMB called on Secretary of State for Education Gavin Williamson to extend home learning for all primary school children who are not the children of Key workers or who are vulnerable.

We welcomed the decision of the Secretary of State to U-turn on primary schools and early years in London boroughs and believe the same instruction should apply across the rest of England where 78% of the population is currently under Tier 4 restrictions and 21% under Tier 3.

We have taken extensive legal and Health & Safety advice on the position of the Secretary of State in asking primary schools in England to open to all pupils from tomorrow.







Visit the Schools Noticeboard​



*We have concluded that we are not able to advise school-based support staff members with legal certainty not to attend work if you are not members of existing Clinically Vulnerable or Clinically Extremely Vulnerable groups.*
This is because, unlike teachers, our support staff members typically are likely to be less able to work remotely from home, and all schools in England will have children of key workers and vulnerable children returning tomorrow - Monday 4 January.

GMB will not run the risk of our members being disciplined or dismissed from their employment for not attending work without an authorised reason such as sickness or holiday.

You may have been advised that other Unions are suggesting that Section 44 of the 1996 Employment Rights Act Model letter gives members the right to leave their workplace in the face of a serious and imminent risk of danger but whilst this legislation may give protection against any action being taken by employers, the reality is what Section 44 means hasn’t been tested in the context of Covid-19.

However, we will rigorously continue to press local authorities, multi-academy trusts, and schools on their legal duty to update risk assessments and put in place the necessary measures to protect our members from increasing rates of Covid-19 infection including calling on schools to be closed where they deem unsafe.

We support those local authorities who have taken the decision to close schools to children (other than for key workers or vulnerable groups) against the Secretary of State’s position - and we will continue to work with sister unions and relevant other bodies to ensure the safety of our members, their families and the wider public.

We are liaising with the National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) and Association of School and College Leaders (ASCL) unions to consider the legal action they are proposing to challenge the Government's decision not to delay the re-opening of schools for a short period of time whilst risk assessments/testing/policy on vaccination etc. is thoroughly considered and will keep members advised of progress.

No one wants to disadvantage any child’s learning, but the safety of children, staff, and the school community must come first which is why we are also calling for the vaccination of support staff – vital key workers - to be brought forward immediately.
*What members should do next*

Our advice is that you should attend school tomorrow unless your school has already confirmed it will be closed or you are in a Clinically Vulnerable or Clinically Extremely Vulnerable Group - or have an authorised reason not to be in school (e.g sickness or holiday).

*We appreciate sister Unions are suggesting the issuing of a Section 44 Model letter. We don’t think the responsibility to challenge your employer should land on our members shoulders. It is your Union’s responsibility to do this on your behalf.*

If your school remains open our advice is that you should be present for work
*You have a right to ask for revised Risk Assessments.* In almost every part of England, infection rates have increased, making Covid-19 exposure more likely. Schools should be revising their risk assessments accordingly and taking appropriate action to mitigate the increased risk
*Contact your local GMB rep if you are worried about returning to work*
If you do not have a workplace rep on-site consider becoming one
*Pass this briefing to a non-union member and ask them to join*
Keep up to date by following our GMB Schools Facebook page here





*CONTACT YOUR LOCAL TEAM:*

You can get in touch with your local team by using the contact details below:

*SOUTHERN*
infoso@gmb.org.uk
gmb.org.uk/southern




*You have a legal right to a safe workplace, and it is the responsibility and duty of your employer to ensure that this is the case.*

You should insist that effective measures are in place for you to work safely and raise a complaint or grievance if you are concerned – GMB is ready to help you do this. Please contact your GMB representative or regional team for support with this.

Please note that no Union is advising any of their members not to go to work where key workers/vulnerable children will be present.

In the first lockdown it was predominately school support staff who kept schools open whilst teachers delivered lessons online from home.

*School support staff make up half the school workforce and we make no apologies in saying it’s not just about the teachers - the safety of school support staff is just as important.*







Visit the Schools Noticeboard​



GMB School Support Staff work under the pay terms and conditions of the Green Book, apart from a very small number of members in multi academy trusts with whom we negotiate separately.

*GMB is a recognised trade union that have been negotiating pay agreements and guidance that ensure you are paid your wages. We will continue to ensure no workers lose out on pay during Covid-19.*

Teacher unions have no jurisdiction on your pay, terms and conditions at work and do not represent school support staff employed under Local Government Green Book Terms and Conditions. Whilst you may hear of teacher unions demands please note they do not have any oversight of your pay, terms and conditions.

*GMB will not hesitate to register a dispute with your school if your school is deemed unsafe and by registering a dispute this is a far better way to protect you at work.*

GMB Teams are on standby to support you.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2021)

Red Cat - I'm sure you already know but I thought of you this morning when I read this -



> Williamson’s remarks came as Birmingham city council – the UK’s largest local authority – asked him to allow the city’s primary schools to close for the next two weeks, and said it would back any schools that defied the government and remained closed.
> 
> “The new strain of the virus and the rising case levels in the city mean we are deeply concerned about the return of children to primary schools, special schools and alternative provision next week,” Ian Ward, the leader of Birmingham council, and Jayne Francis, the council member for education, told Williamson.



I think these decisions are made that tiny bit easier when there is some clarity coming from _somewhere_ - and I agree that you're doing the right thing, as utterly shit as it is.

In other news, Starmer has finally opened his gob and called for a lockdown within 24 hours.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I assume we have all emailed our MP?


Mine is Simon Hart. What would be the fucking point?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

elbows said:


> Amanda Spielman - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Worth noting that OFSTED themselves confirmed months ago that they wouldn't be going into schools for the forseeable future. Now she's got the cheek to throw teachers under the bus for even attempting to follow suit.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From a teacher friend
> 
> "The problem is that this is what they want the NEU to do. They are going to have to close them anyway and they know it. This gives them the opportunity to blame teachers and the unions"



I doubt the government wants to deal with legal challenges. They raise the prospect of a narrative neither they nor their lickspittles in the press can control. Of course time or the lack of it is on the government's side here.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

Well our inset day tomorrow is going to be a real blast I'm sure


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## spitfire (Jan 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I expect some cunt will try and split that hair, but as far as I know, the HSW Act applies to anyone in the workplace: Education employers



From memory and I am happy to stand corrected but the HSW act applies to anyone in or around a workplace, including the general public/passersby etc. so it would definitely include trainees etc.

If I am attending a site, i am covered by that sites HSW procedures/obligations rather than my employers. This is my understanding,


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## Thora (Jan 3, 2021)

Our school has emailed to say one class (of 5) will be home tomorrow, so I assume only one teacher is refusing to come in.


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## spitfire (Jan 3, 2021)

spitfire said:


> From memory and I am happy to stand corrected but the HSW act applies to anyone in or around a workplace, including the general public/passersby etc. so it would definitely include trainees etc.
> 
> If I am attending a site, i am covered by that sites HSW procedures/obligations rather than my employers. This is my understanding,



Thinking further on this it is why you would attend an induction on your first day on any decent building site. I imagine they do something similar in schools without the swearing. Therefore that site has taken on responsibility for your H&S (and also made sure you know where to go to the toilet).


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## PursuedByBears (Jan 3, 2021)

Our primary school is closing and the one down the road too.


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## existentialist (Jan 3, 2021)

The education sector has long relied - as has the health sector - on a combination of moral blackmail and threats to keep its workforce in line. The Government line on teachers (arguably, the domain specialists here) seems to be that "we know best", in terms of education as much as what is going on here; and then they're more than happy (as they did with nurses and junior doctors) to smear them as revolutionary extremists the moment they so much as hint at direct action.

I would say, if I were working in education, that this would be the hill I choose to (metaphorically) die on. If schools are able to pressure teachers to go in against their better judgement in this situation, then there is pretty well nothing they would hold back from doing. This situation threatens both teachers, and anyone they are in close contact with, with a disease that can have serious and unpleasant consequences, including death. If there were ever a time to draw a very firm line in the sand, this must surely be it?

I'm sure there are people far better placed to give advice than me, so hopefully they'll be along to suggest to people in that position what the best way is of asserting what really is a fundamental human right.


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## spitfire (Jan 3, 2021)

Regarding HSW Act etc. this is probably also relevant and posted on the main UK thread by redsquirrel



redsquirrel said:


> H and S at Work Regulations Act 1974.
> 
> 
> You are probably already aware of what I'm about to say andysays but I'll just post it for any lurkers.
> ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

Well NASUWT are pulling their punches on this (their current advice is go to work, ask your head for an updated risk assessment) so I've just joined NEU.


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## maomao (Jan 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well NASUWT are pulling their punches on this (their current advice is go to work, ask your head for an updated risk assessment) so I've just joined NEU.



I don't think S44 works for us Frank. We're not employees. The students union may be more use if you really don't want to go in? I'm going in for an inset tomorrow and emails suggest I will be working at home for the two weeks after that (and unless infection rates magically revers I expect that two weeks to become the rest of my placement).


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## QueenOfGoths (Jan 3, 2021)

My son's school have just sent this!

"Dear parents / carers

We’re due to return to school on the 5th January to commence the spring term but the escalating virulence and number of cases of COVID-19 has created substantial anxiety in the community and indeed across the country about doing so.

*For the safety of the staff, the children and the community, I have taken the decision to open only to the following children:*

*Those whose parents are key workers*
*Those who have an EHCP*
*Those who have a social worker*
*For all other children, there will be remote provision via See Saw.*

It is difficult for me to say how long these arrangements will be in place for so I will update you each week in the newsletter about the developing situation.

The deputy head will confirm the expectations of children working from home on Monday. We learned a lot about remote learning during the first lockdown and we have prepared this term to keep improving it if the time came to do so again. We understand the challenges from a parental perspective and hope that you understand that this decision was not taken lightly. "


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

maomao said:


> I don't think S44 works for us Frank. We're not employees. The students union may be more use if you really don't want to go in? I'm going in for an inset tomorrow and emails suggest I will be working at home for the two weeks after that (and unless infection rates magically revers I expect that two weeks to become the rest of my placement).



I'm fine going in to school but I won't cross a picket line to do it. Not that that's likely to come up as I can scarcely run the place by myself.


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## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

Just received this from my daughter's school.



> .Please note that in line with government guidelines, if you elect to keep your children at home, these absences will need to be treated as unauthorised and the school is not obliged to prepare home/remote learning. For your child’s absence to be eligible for home/remote learning, evidence of COVID 19 within the family bubble is required.



We've emailed to.let them know she's not going in and is looking forward to receiving remote work.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

chilango said:


> Just received this from my daughter's school.
> 
> 
> 
> We've emailed to.let them know she's not going in and is looking forward to receiving remote work.



They won't 'need' to be treated as unauthorised at all, someone has _decided_ to treat them as unauthorised absences   

I hate this kind of language that turns some petty managerial type's diktat into some kind of natural law.


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## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They won't 'need' to be treated as unauthorised at all, someone has _decided_ to treat them as unauthorised absences
> 
> I hate this kind of language that turns some petty managerial type's diktat into some kind of natural law.



I know. But they don't know that I know. Also "unauthorised absence" is a bigger problem for them than it is for us. That poor SLT is in for a very rude awakening if they want to bring it on.


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## purenarcotic (Jan 3, 2021)

I’m disappointed with GMB’s response. All unions singing from the same hymn sheet is always preferable IMO. And of course it’s not been tested, C19 didn’t exist until last year ffs.  And there are roles support staff can do remotely. And NEU are not advocating nobody going in, they are still telling members to be available for key worker and vulnerable kids. Just disappointed.


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 3, 2021)

Southampton Council sticking the boot in.


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I’m disappointed with GMB’s response. All unions singing from the same hymn sheet is always preferable IMO. And of course it’s not been tested, C19 didn’t exist until last year ffs.  And there are roles support staff can do remotely. And NEU are not advocating nobody going in, they are still telling members to be available for key worker and vulnerable kids. Just disappointed.



Tbf, because it does seem to hinge on remote working being an alternative, in our case (kitchen/canteen staff) there _isn't_ anything we can do from home, likewise with cleaning and caretaking staff.

I'm due back on Weds but it's unlikely the 200 predicted key worker/vulnerable etc kids will show anyway (think it was under 20 first time around) so they will probably furlough us at that point, if we're not in lockdown by then anyway.

If they are all in though, obviously the school does need to feed them, clean etc - and the same will definitely apply if Year 11's are back the following week, as planned.

We'll still only be working some of our contracted hours and flexibly furloughed the rest - feeding 200/600 being a bit different to the full 2000 odd - and that will at least have a further impact on the conditions we've been working under for the last few months (the whole school coming in two year bubbles at a time, using different entry and exit points, for break and then lunch).

Even when they finally got them to wear masks, after half term, that effectively still means hundreds of kids crammed in while they're queueing - and it's impossible to wear masks while we serve them (we wear visors) because you actually need to be able to communicate with them, in a very noisy environment, and that's already difficult enough when they are wearing masks themselves.

Will be much easier to stagger those smaller groups, tho and for us to effectively SD from each other, too, with fewer kids in and so fewer of us, too.

I have more of an issue with the fact that for eg my manger came in last term coughing and spluttering everywhere and doesn't seem to have grasped the fact, despite it being made clear, that she and the cook can't sit in the tiny office together with the windows shut and the door closed. 

I pretty much gave up thinking about it by the second half of the last term - it was just too mental to comprehend/worry about.


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## campanula (Jan 3, 2021)

N.Norfolk  have closed primaries. Think it is a domino effect now and schools around the country will close (numbers. tipping point etc.)
Canbridge still holding out to open but, as like last March, parents are generally making their own decisions here. Last year, my grand-daughter was off 2 weeks before schools officially closed.


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## Mattym (Jan 3, 2021)

Any school that's got an INSET tomorrow, but isn't doing it remotely, is completely out of order!
Ours is tomorrow & the senior management originally said that the expectation is that we would be on site, unless there was a good reason why we'd be better off WFH. I stated my reasons & was given the go ahead, but since then, it has become all WFH.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jan 3, 2021)

some Merseyside schools now won't open tomorrow [for all pupils]









						More Mersey primary Schools will stay closed amid Covid fears
					

Headteachers write last minute letters to parents after staff take union safety advice




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


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## Hollis (Jan 3, 2021)

If the strategy is 'control' rather than zero-covid, then I would assume someone has done the calculations and decided the increase in transmission to staff and families  that will result is acceptable.  I guess they won't be sharing these stats widely, but the whole strategy adopted is accepting a cost in lives versus disruption to the economy/schooling.  (Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but it only really dawned on me the last couple days.).  In some ways the 'bumbling Boris' narrative is maybe easier for them to stomach than bringing the strategy out in the open.

Johson almost said as much in his interview this morning - they will 'see what happens'..


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 3, 2021)

reading and slough councils have both said they will support any schools who choose not to open (presume saying this means they can't get taken to court by government for telling schools to close...


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## elbows (Jan 3, 2021)

Hollis said:


> If the strategy is 'control' rather than zero-covid, then I would assume someone has done the calculations and decided the increase in transmission to staff and families  that will result is acceptable.  I guess they won't be sharing these stats widely, but the whole strategy adopted is accepting a cost in lives versus disruption to the economy/schooling.  (Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but it only really dawned on me the last couple days.).  In some ways the 'bumbling Boris' narrative is maybe easier for them to stomach than bringing the strategy out in the open.
> 
> Johson almost said as much in his interview this morning - they will 'see what happens'..



Data and analysis they are waiting for includes the effect of tier 4 & school holidays. Due to various sorts of lag the likes of SAGE etc have said thats not going to be available till mid January.

Its sort of true but I wouldnt use that as an excuse to do nothing in the meantime. And although certain forms of final data & analysis covering the entire relevant period wont be available till that date, it is possible to see things unfolding in daily data to the extent that clues and tentative indicators can be explored by governments and advisors in the meantime.

Some counter-intuitive stuff comes up in modelling and analysis at times too. There were hints of this in things people like Whitty and Vallance said in March. Some of it I would write off as convenient but shit excuses for doing too little too late, but there were also some odd sounding things that had a rational basis if you put faith in the output of certain models. For example they sometimes warned about the dangers of acting too soon or too strongly, and their excuse for that stance has a lot ot do with what modelling shows happen in terms of subsequent waves once restrictions are lifted. But I usually moan about that because only certain scenarios are modelled, and if you setup scenarios with the expectation that its only politically acceptable to have one lockdown period, of course you are inviting future projections which involve further large waves. Anyway the reason I am going on about that now is that I believe some of the modelling from March had stuff in there about how over the medium term, they ended up with more deaths in the scenario where schools were closed than those where schools stayed open. Mostly to do with timing of spread through society in relation to what sort of period of lockdown etc theyd modelled. And this is where modelling used as evidence for what should be done needs careful scrutiny, because the chosen scenarios to model are not free from politics and things can get rotten, or at least the right combinations can be forgotten and left unexplored.


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## kebabking (Jan 3, 2021)

Slough and Reading Councils have said they will support schools who decide not to open. chilango?

Cheltenham have binned junior schools. Wolverhampton have also done so.

Cumbria asked for permission from DFE after their director public health requested closure, but the great intellectual titan Williamson refused. What they will do is up for discussion...


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## chilango (Jan 3, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Slough and Reading Councils have said they will support schools who decide not to open. chilango?
> 
> Cheltenham have binned junior schools. Wolverhampton have also done so.
> 
> Cumbria asked for permission from DFE after their director public health requested closure, but the great intellectual titan Williamson refused. What they will do is up for discussion...



Daughter's school is "over the border" in Wokingham. Anyway I'm guessing the school's email to parents has gone down like a bucket of cold sick as they've just sent out their risk assessment to everyone...


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## MickiQ (Jan 3, 2021)

Mrs Q's school has emailed her (today!!!) to tell her that there has been a change of plan once more, current plan is vulnerables and key workers children will return tomorrow, Y11 & Y13 will return on the 11th and the rest (maybe) on the 18th.
An email sent to parents apparently tells them that there will be online learning available for those not going in and a timetable will be published. Mrs Q has no idea whether she is supposed to go into work tomorrow or teach from home with zero preparation.
She is going to go into tomorrow and hope someone else knows what's happening.


kebabking said:


> the great intellectual titan Williamson


Not a phrase I and certainly not my wife would use to describe him.


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## tommers (Jan 3, 2021)

Kids' new school has decided to close for two weeks.


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Mrs Q's school has emailed her (today!!!) to tell her that there has been a change of plan once more, current plan is vulnerables and key workers children will return tomorrow, Y11 & Y13 will return on the 11th and the rest (maybe) on the 18th.



That was already the plan for secondaries, wasn't it?!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

sheothebudworths said:


> That was already the plan for secondaries, wasn't it?!



The most recent 'official' plan yes.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Not a phrase I and certainly not my wife would use to describe him.



one word and two letters too long?


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 3, 2021)

sheothebudworths said:


> That was already the plan for secondaries, wasn't it?!


I believe the plan last week or last memo at least was Vulnerable Kids, Key Worker, Y11 and Y13 on 4th Jan, the rest on Jan 11th.  Today is the first she knows of the current plan because she has been bending my ear about it as if I'm responsible.


SpookyFrank said:


> The most recent 'official' plan yes.


Yes it is though I had to google to doublecheck, Mrs Q's email only referred to her secondary school but Google reveals it is the official plan
Edited slightly googling more reveals it to be the official plan for Tier 1-3 secondaries with Tier 4 hotspots staying closed possibly till 25th. We're Tier 4 so clearly there is already a Tier 4 and a Tier 4+


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## cybershot (Jan 3, 2021)

What's annoying me is seeing Labour run councils such as Birmingham creating a lot of noise, but making no firm statements that they will back any schools unable to open due to lack of staff or that parents who choose to keep their children off will not be fined. Clearly using the situation as a titt for tatt battle rather than making a statement backing schools and parents.


----------



## souljacker (Jan 3, 2021)

My kids primary school (in North Reading) is only open for children of key workers for 'at least two weeks'. Letter came out at tea time today. Tomorrow was inset anyway.


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## Red Cat (Jan 3, 2021)

cybershot said:


> What's annoying me is seeing Labour run councils such as Birmingham creating a lot of noise, but making no firm statements that they will back any schools unable to open due to lack of staff or that parents who choose to keep their children off will not be fined. Clearly using the situation as a titt for tatt battle rather than making a statement backing schools and parents.



Birmingham has said they'll back schools.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 3, 2021)

My daughter is so upset about missing school and knowing her friends will be there. It's awful this.


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## elbows (Jan 4, 2021)

And now...









						'Furlough mums and dads while schools are off' says TUC
					

Trades unions urge bosses to support parents trying to balance work and childcare.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## aqua (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Birmingham has said they'll back schools.


It has but that's a shit move. Leaving the decision to individual head teachers is beyond crap.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 4, 2021)

Where's the info about absence being at heads discretion? Not that i care really, but the head has said they can't authorise.

eta I found it


----------



## Spandex (Jan 4, 2021)

This schools mess is amongst the biggest fuck ups that this fucked up government has fucked up so far.

I feel lucky we got 2 days notice that the kids' school is shut for at least the next 2 weeks, so I didn't have to make the difficult decision whether to send them in myself or wake up this morning wondering if the school was going to be open. Fuck knows what I'll do about work this week, with having to home school them. Hope my manager is in an understanding mood. My son is fine with staying home, but I can tell my daughter is upset not to be seeing her friends again despite putting on a brave face.

Looking at the front pages this morning, it's clear the government has leaned on the papers to run with positive vaccine news. Only the Mirror and the Guardian mention the chaos affecting parents around the land, plus a few words on the FT. And with the government trying to pretend that there's a well organised plan for schools, that everything is fine and it's all going well, that means there's a total lack of information about what's going on or how to deal with it. It's hard to even find an accurate list of where schools are closed. I'm fucking fuming that this shitting mess is happening. Williamson should be hung, drawn and quartered, his remains dangled from Westminster bridge.

On the plus side, the boy is making some groovy house music with Groovepad on his tablet. I guess that counts as learning.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 4, 2021)

In Wales...Heads meeting this afternoon. 

Our Monday and Tuesday inset days have been changed to Mon, Tue, Wed already (we got an email at the weekend). Monday has been changed to online only (WFH), Tuesday to splitting the staff in half and Wednesday all staff in, which is crap. Why split up Tuesday if you're going to go full on Wednesday? For an inset day?

I expect things to change again this afternoon.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2021)

Spandex said:


> On the plus side, the boy is making some groovy house music with Groovepad on his tablet. I guess that counts as learning.


If there's one thing that could come from this, it would be the redefinition of "education" from "fill kids' heads full of facts, then examine the living hell out of them" to something rather more fluid and creative. I know there are many teachers who do the latter, but they're swimming against the tide in a system which seems a lot more about pigeonholing and conformity than encouraging creativity and freedom of expression.

I hope your son gets some banging tunes (is that what the Young People say these days? ) out of this...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Where's the info about absence being at heads discretion? Not that i care really, but the head has said they can't authorise.



It’s pretty much always at the head’s discretion, but doesn’t affect you or your daughter, it affects the school’s Ofstead rating, which is irrelevant during normal times, so bobbins during Covid.

Can’t see any fines being dished out either, or if they were can’t imagine they would stand up in court...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s pretty much always at the head’s discretion, but doesn’t affect you or your daughter, it affects the school’s Ofstead rating, which is irrelevant during normal times, so bobbins during Covid.
> 
> Can’t see any fines being dished out either, or if they were can’t imagine they would stand up in court...



The government is not going to want any of this stuff to end up in court.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s pretty much always at the head’s discretion, but doesn’t affect you or your daughter, it affects the school’s Ofstead rating, which is irrelevant during normal times, so bobbins during Covid.
> 
> Can’t see any fines being dished out either, or if they were can’t imagine they would stand up in court...



Yeh, makes no difference to us. I think if he authorises it, it's admitting that the school isn't safe. He did express sympathy and understanding, I guess that might be all we can expect.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2021)

I was thinking about the non-attendance fines thing. Supposing a school did report parents for not bringing their kids in in this situation, the decision would then have to be down to the LA to decide what to do...now, that process is going to take time, and if even quite moderate prognostications are correct, it could well be (almost certainly will be) the case that, at that point, they are dealing with the grisly aftermath of the decision not to close schools...in other words, time will have provided the perfect justification for the decision.

I suppose there will be cunty LAs who will insist on prosecuting, but then you can consider the position of the court - especially if the reason the parents kept the child off school turns out to have been, effectively with hindsight, perfectly valid. As it almost inevitably will.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

We didn’t put BB2’s school in a position, I called and left a message that she wasn’t feeling well, didn’t elaborate on that, but everyone’s covered.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 4, 2021)

Bit of a tangent but I remember when I was at school and they tried playing chicken with me and my fam putting me down with enough unauthorised absences to trigger social services (despite the sick note, hospitalisation and so on). Joke was on them, I got moved schools, they tried to claim my new placement was temporary so they could keep my (excellent) grades in their system and they weren't allowed. Then when the guardian released all the school stats, for years you could see the massive bump in the school's graph for unauthorised absences for the period I was off. Glorious


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)

To my open-mouthed astonishment I've emailed the kids school (T3) to say that I'd support any decision they took to close the school.

Those bronze age hillforts and burial mounds are going to take a right beating...


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 4, 2021)

Spandex said:


> On the plus side, the boy is making some groovy house music with Groovepad on his tablet. I guess that counts as learning.



This is definitely learning. And goes hand in hand with this;



existentialist said:


> If there's one thing that could come from this, it would be the redefinition of "education" from "fill kids' heads full of facts, then examine the living hell out of them" to something rather more fluid and creative. I know there are many teachers who do the latter, but they're swimming against the tide in a system which seems a lot more about pigeonholing and conformity than encouraging creativity and freedom of expression.



We are supposed to start Donaldson this term. Which is supposed to be fluid and creative. To say most teachers in my school don't understand Donaldson is an understatement and quite frightening.

I am sick of this emphasis on education only taking place within a school building. While schools are a great thing we barely had a century ago, education is not synonymous with school. Much learning already takes place outside the exam factories, and there is no reason Groovepad can't be incorporated into what is considered 'learning'. Along with many other things children pick up away from school.

The situation is obviously not ideal, for many reasons. But we should be using this time to moving towards incorporating informal education into the mainstream and giving non-exam material the status it deserves.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 4, 2021)

chilango said:


> laissez-faire.


I read about that style of government recently in a book about the famine in Ireland


----------



## chilango (Jan 4, 2021)

27% of kids at my daughter's school defied the Head's letter and voted with their feet today.

I want my daughter in school. But when it is safe.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> This is definitely learning. And goes hand in hand with this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And, in tandem with that, starting to undermine the conventional wisdom that exam factories have any real educational validity in the first place.


----------



## killer b (Jan 4, 2021)

aqua said:


> It has but that's a shit move. Leaving the decision to individual head teachers is beyond crap.


Councils don't have the power to close schools do they? I've certainly seen complaints from councils that they aren't able to go any further (I suppose Greenwich being threatened with legal action before Christmas has made them less likely to try too)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2021)

Teachers here have just been told they've got to be in school all day every day this week even though it's only a handful of key worker/care plan kids. Mental.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 4, 2021)

I keep thinking we made a mistake and should’ve sent her in. It feels so lonely.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I keep thinking we made a mistake and should’ve sent her in. It feels so lonely.


the school will likely be shut next week anyway - youve done the right thing


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jan 4, 2021)

killer b said:


> Councils don't have the power to close schools do they? I've certainly seen complaints from councils that they aren't able to go any further (I suppose Greenwich being threatened with legal action before Christmas has made them less likely to try too)



Leader of Birmingham Council has written in the Brum Mail today, practically begging for schools to shut.  I guess in legal terms that means that it's a decision either taken at a national level, or it's down to individual headteachers.

The partial exception to this I've heard of is Brighton - the leader of the council wrote to Williamson asking to be included with the London / SE closures, and 'advised' all primary heads to shut.  This isn't exactly the LEA formally shutting schools, but it's as good as and I wish there were more taking the same approach.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I keep thinking we made a mistake and should’ve sent her in. It feels so lonely.



There's not a good option on the table here but in your position I'd be keeping my kids home.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 4, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Teachers here have just been told they've got to be in school all day every day this week even though it's only a handful of key worker/care plan kids. Mental.



There was a post on one of these threads saying their boss wanted them in to show solidarity. I wonder how many other bosses have this sort of faulty thinking. In these circs solidarity is staying away.


----------



## chilango (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I keep thinking we made a mistake and should’ve sent her in. It feels so lonely.



You can reassess as things settle one or the other.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2021)

quimcunx said:


> There was a post on one of these threads saying their boss wanted them in to show solidarity. I wonder how many other bosses have this sort of faulty thinking. In these circs solidarity is staying away.



Everyone's happy to do their bit teaching the kids that are actually in school, and to do online work, they just object to being sat in an empty (and freezing cold) class doing stuff they could do at home, at a time when official advice is 'work from home where possible'. This is a very rural school and most people are driving 30 minutes or more to get in. The risk may be low, but it's still non-zero and for zero gain.


----------



## maomao (Jan 4, 2021)

We're in for an inset today but staff seem to be being very careful. Two metre gaps in the breakfast queue and wearing masks most of the time. I've been having meetings with my mentor and other teachers and making a point of sitting opposite side of the room. Key workers kids will be looked after in a rota and the rest of the time we're encouraged to work from home if we have the facilities. No one here thinks the school will be full in two weeks though some have expressed a desire for just years 11 and 13 to come in.


----------



## Thora (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I keep thinking we made a mistake and should’ve sent her in. It feels so lonely.


In a tier 4 area and with a vulnerable family member it would have been mad to send her in - massively increasing your risk when schools will likely be closed by the end of the week anyway.
We really struggled with what to do in a tier 3/low numbers area, with no cases in the school last term and no one vulnerable at home.  Ours have gone in today but it looked like a lot were off - even the deputy head teacher who is currently on mat leave kept her own kids off.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 4, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Everyone's happy to do their bit teaching the kids that are actually in school, and to do online work, they just object to being sat in an empty (and freezing cold) class doing stuff they could do at home, at a time when official advice is 'work from home where possible'. This is a very rural school and most people are driving 30 minutes or more to get in. The risk may be low, but it's still non-zero and for zero gain.


The school’s union reps (or at least the NEU rep) should be meeting with the head urgently to raise this.   There is no justification for staff being in school for inset (unless practical training - for eg in administering COVID tests - is being delivered). 

I’ve been in Zoom meetings all day.  It’s a very meaningful way of delivering inset as it encourages dialogue and discourages “filler” content.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> The school’s union reps (or at least the NEU rep) should be meeting with the head urgently to raise this.   There is no justification for staff being in school for inset (unless practical training - for eg in administering COVID tests - is being delivered).
> 
> I’ve been in Zoom meetings all day.  It’s a very meaningful way of delivering inset as it encourages dialogue and discourages “filler” content.



No practical training. Staff still have no clue what's going on with testing; who is doing it, when staff will be tested, when students will tested etc. Most kids here come in by bus from the arse end of nowhere and there seems to be a possibility that many of them will have to come in for a test and then go straight home again, which is logistically impossible.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 4, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> In Wales...Heads meeting this afternoon.
> 
> Our Monday and Tuesday inset days have been changed to Mon, Tue, Wed already (we got an email at the weekend). Monday has been changed to online only (WFH), Tuesday to splitting the staff in half and Wednesday all staff in, which is crap. Why split up Tuesday if you're going to go full on Wednesday? For an inset day?
> 
> I expect things to change again this afternoon.



So they listened to me and have now changed tomorrow to WFH and Wednesday to half staff in the morning and half in the afternoon. But all with the proviso "this may change" - because that Heads meeting this afternoon is presumably to disseminate information/policy from the Welsh government.

I think we might not open on Thursday. Can't be certain yet though.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 4, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> No practical training. Staff still have no clue what's going on with testing; who is doing it, when staff will be tested, when students will tested etc. Most kids here come in by bus from the arse end of nowhere and there seems to be a possibility that many of them will have to come in for a test and then go straight home again, which is logistically impossible.


We're all in tomorrow for inset, even though our risk assessment says we should work from home where possible. And we're all expecting to have to do our online teaching from school even though we are all pretty darn good at delivering live lessons and have done so for weeks with better equipment at home.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 4, 2021)

And most of our staff travel on bus, train or tube to get to work so double yay.


----------



## Thora (Jan 4, 2021)

He’s going to announce school closures tonight isn’t he


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 4, 2021)

Thora said:


> He’s going to announce school closures tonight isn’t he


Full national lockdown I think. Parliament has been recalled.


----------



## Red Cat (Jan 4, 2021)

Thora said:


> In a tier 4 area and with a vulnerable family member it would have been mad to send her in - massively increasing your risk when schools will likely be closed by the end of the week anyway.
> We really struggled with what to do in a tier 3/low numbers area, with no cases in the school last term and no one vulnerable at home.  Ours have gone in today but it looked like a lot were off - even the deputy head teacher who is currently on mat leave kept her own kids off.



You're right, it just feels so isolated here in the house, with no contact with other not going to schoolers.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> You're right, it just feels so isolated here in the house, with no contact with other not going to schoolers.


looks like everyone's going remote pretty soon, so this bit at least won't last.

(we were always shut until 11th/18th & so thankful not had to deal with this current bit of fuckery, solidarity all x)


----------



## colacubes (Jan 4, 2021)

Announcement from Boris at 8pm tonight on the telly with Parliament recalled on Wednesday to vote on any measures announced. I think you can all be fairly certain schools are shutting apart from for key workers from Thursday at the latest for the foreseeable.









						Covid: Boris Johnson set to announce new England lockdown
					

Boris Johnson will make a televised address at 20:00 GMT to outline further steps as virus cases rise.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## miss direct (Jan 4, 2021)

Guess I won't be starting my school job on the 18th then....wonder if I'll still get paid.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 4, 2021)

Here in Tier 3, it means kids and teachers messed about and parents having to find childcare or arrange to be off work with half a day's notice. Totally unnecessary. Not that I'm saying schools should stay open, but this could have been decided before Xmas. Instead of which, why not have them go in  for one day and catch whatever they were going to catch so as to undermine the whole point of keeping them home?

Grrrr.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 4, 2021)

> According to the Financial Times (paywall), which says it has been briefed by “several Whitehall officials”, cabinet ministers agreed this afternoon that “primary and secondary schools would probably close until the mid-February half-term break”.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)

I hope the kids are in school tomorrow - I'd planned a lovely long walk for the morning....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> You're right, it just feels so isolated here in the house, with no contact with other not going to schoolers.




Mate, have been feeling the same all day. But Scotland has closed all schools from tonight, there's no way England won't follow suit, so you have done the right thing, as painful as it may feel.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 4, 2021)

And yet Wales won't...(yet).

Johnson is going to look stupid shutting the schools after just opening them.

The Senedd are going to look even more stupid being last.


----------



## Fruitloop (Jan 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Mate, have been feeling the same all day. But Scotland has closed all schools from tonight, there's no way England won't follow suit, so you have done the right thing, as painful as it may feel.


Seconded. It’s pretty stressful being governed by complete shitheads, but stick to your guns, you’re doing the right thing


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 4, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> And yet Wales won't...(yet).
> 
> Johnson is going to look stupid shutting the schools after just opening them.
> 
> The Senedd are going to look even more stupid being last.


on the bbc now they've (wales) announced no re-opening. so i think it would only have been teachers and key workers kids in today? or were they delayed too?


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 4, 2021)

wayward bob said:


> on the bbc now they've (wales) announced no re-opening. so i think it would only have been teachers and key workers kids in today? or were they delayed too?



Four hours after saying they must re-open/stay open.

Again, they've had their hand forced, or their decision made, by the actions of Johnson.

Pathetic.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)

Head of a junior school in T4 thinks school will probably be open tomorrow, but no idea how many will turn up, and then closed for most pupils from Tuesday evening onwards. Working assumption is till February half term.

The variable here is whether Govt will treat schools and wider lockdown separately and use existing powers tonight (Monday) to close schools with immediate effect, or will lump it all in together - this needs parliamentary approval so can't happen till close of play on Wednesday. Won't know till pM's announcement at 8pm tonight...


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2021)

Just from hearing the emotions of education workers and parents on here (I'm neither, but work in university so have parallel issues) this hokey cokey sounds so much more draining than the last time schools were closed.    It's what you'd get if you put Trump, Gerald Ratner and Clive Sinclair in charge, with added help from the Cat in a Bin lady. Shocking.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)




----------



## May Kasahara (Jan 4, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Just from hearing the emotions of education workers and parents on here (I'm neither, but work in university so have parallel issues) this hokey cokey sounds so much more draining than the last time schools were closed.    It's what you'd get if you put Trump, Gerald Ratner and Clive Sinclair in charge, with added help from the Cat in a Bin lady. Shocking.



As a parent and an education worker, can confirm it's fucking awful. And I don't even work directly in a school. My poor colleagues, my poor kids, my poor sanity - all bruised to fuck and with no relief in sight.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

The school my sister works in sent out a form to list key workers, junior school of 600 and 417 claim to have key worker parents, not really worth them closing...

BB2’s school has just sent out a similar form but theirs states that if the school closes only kids to come in are ones with all carers doing Covid-Critical work. They don’t specify what that is though and I don’t think they have any right to demand proof.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 4, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Four hours after saying they must re-open/stay open.
> 
> Again, they've had their hand forced, or their decision made, by the actions of Johnson.
> 
> Pathetic.



They've only announced closure until the 18th. It seems fucking stupid when they are obviously going to announce closure until Feb half term in the next few days. I mean, I'm no strategist, but how do you get out covid planned by Johnson


----------



## baldrick (Jan 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The school my sister works in sent out a form to list key workers, junior school of 600 and 417 claim to have key worker parents, not really worth them closing...
> 
> BB2’s school has just sent out a similar form but theirs states that if the school closes only kids to come in are ones with all carers doing Covid-Critical work. They don’t specify what that is though and I don’t think they have any right to demand proof.


In reality very few will come in. We had maybe 100 say they might want a place last time we had a lockdown, I think the biggest attendance on any one day was 7, before they allowed Y10/Y12 to come in on a rota.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

baldrick said:


> In reality very few will come in. We had maybe 100 say they might want a place last time we had a lockdown, I think the biggest attendance on any one day was 7, before they allowed Y10/Y12 to come in on a rota.



She said in the first lockdown the school was empty at first but by June it was filling up. Guess many people needed to get back to work. Woman I know is a secondary school teacher who has three kids 7,5&2, she’s not worked in a school since 7 year old arrived, but in June she told the school she was a teacher and husband’s a GP so 7&5 year olds could go in and she could spend quality time with 2 year old (18 months as was).


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 4, 2021)

They have changed the keyworker thing to critical workers. I'll dig out the relevant page when I'm not child wrangling.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 4, 2021)

In our area, both parents have to be frontline critical workers (so I don't think we'd be entitled any more as other half works in NHS IT, not frontline) We haven't used it anyway as we could always manage.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Jan 4, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> In our area, both parents have to be frontline critical workers (so I don't think we'd be entitled any more as other half works in NHS IT, not frontline) We haven't used it anyway as we could always manage.


Our school are doing this too so we don't qualify.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 4, 2021)

[Withdrawn] Children of critical workers and vulnerable children who can access schools or educational settings
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## rubbershoes (Jan 4, 2021)

colacubes said:


> Announcement from Boris at 8pm tonight on the telly with Parliament recalled on Wednesday to vote on any measures announced. I think you can all be fairly certain schools are shutting apart from for key workers from Thursday at the latest for the foreseeable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Joe Wicks is restarting his workouts. Guess that makes it official that schools aren't reopening


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)

Wank.

Fucking kids...


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jan 4, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Wank.
> 
> Fucking kids...


#nocontext


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Wank.
> 
> Fucking kids...



Is this your to-do list? 😳


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 4, 2021)




----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 4, 2021)

S☼I said:


> They went out of their way to say this is not a strike, labour is not being withdrawn, it is an insistence on working in a different way for safety reasons


I don't know how to tag you so I've quoted you 

Update: Jo Grady, Daniel Kebede (SVP NEU) plus Vicky Blake to address London Region FE Emergency Meeting tomorrow at 17:30. Details included.   UCU meetings about FE might be of interest to you


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is this your to-do list? 😳



Nah, but I might sell them to the butcher...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 4, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I don't know how to tag you so I've quoted you



to tag S☼I you have to use one of the secret buttons


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 4, 2021)

.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Wank.
> 
> Fucking kids...


I blame the parents.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 4, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> Joe Wicks is restarting his workouts. Guess that makes it official that schools aren't reopening


Being a non-parent idiot, I don't really understand why they can't do something similar with the curriculum. Get more celebs involved, make it a 'national effort', relieve some of the burden from parents...

I do understand that each school has their own spin on things, but surely there's enough base material to do _something _with? Hell, even if it's just stuff like maths and the sciences, those aren't gonna change between schools!


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Being a non-parent idiot, I don't really understand why they can't do something similar with the curriculum. Get more celebs involved, make it a 'national effort', relieve some of the burden from parents...
> 
> I do understand that each school has their own spin on things, but surely there's enough base material to do _something _with? Hell, even if it's just stuff like maths and the sciences, those aren't gonna change between schools!


It's probably already out there. All it needs is someone to curate the content. The wonders of YouTube meet the 19th century UK education paradigm...


----------



## miss direct (Jan 4, 2021)

Well I was meant to start a job in a school on the 18th. No idea what will happen with that as I don't have a contract yet, but I wasn't relishing the thought of being surrounded by teenagers not wearing masks. Hopefully they'll find me something to do online or maybe with kids of key workers and still pay me. I suppose there's no need to bother studying all the GCSE stuff that I started working on. 

Bears what's happening with your job?


----------



## kebabking (Jan 4, 2021)

There's a lot of material out there - my Mrs has been putting together packs with stuff she's robbed off the internet.

Our schools are closed completely tomorrow, and hoping to put some capacity in place within the next few days. Mrs K will be at work by 7am...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 4, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's probably already out there. All it needs is someone to curate the content. The wonders of YouTube meet the 19th century UK education paradigm...


Oh, christ yes, there's a wealth of content on YouTube and elsewhere, and pretty sure people have, as they always do, been doing things off their own back.

But it should be a government initiative, co-ordinated and, as you say, curated, and made easy for both schools and parents to access and supplement.


----------



## Thora (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Oh, christ yes, there's a wealth of content on YouTube and elsewhere, and pretty sure people have, as they always do, been doing things off their own back.
> 
> But it should be a government initiative, co-ordinated and, as you say, curated, and made easy for both schools and parents to access and supplement.


There is - BBC Bitesize and Oak National Academy


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 4, 2021)

Thora said:


> There is - BBC Bitesize and Oak National Academy





Lord Camomile said:


> Being a non-parent idiot


 

Still think celebs should be involved


----------



## N_igma (Jan 4, 2021)

We haven’t followed suit here in NI yet but expected tomorrow. I have an INSET day tomorrow so will find out then.

To be honest I’m more worried about having to do predicted grades in the event of no exams.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 4, 2021)

N_igma said:


> We haven’t followed suit here in NI yet but expected tomorrow. I have an INSET day tomorrow so will find out then.
> 
> To be honest I’m more worried about having to do predicted grades in the event of no exams.


What do you teach?


----------



## Raheem (Jan 4, 2021)

DfE had a conference call for all staff today, in which they were told there were no plans for further school closures.


----------



## N_igma (Jan 4, 2021)

S☼I said:


> What do you teach?



A-level sociology and politics.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 4, 2021)

N_igma said:


> A-level sociology and politics.


Oof


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2021)

N_igma said:


> A-level sociology and politics.


'Assess the applicability of Ulrich Beck's _Risk Society Thesis_ to Boris Johnson's fucktwinkle cackhanded shitbasket pandemic management strategy 2020-2025'


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 5, 2021)

My doubts about this happening on Sunday were clearly misplaced, I’d forgotten that before they U-turn they always double-down and brief hard against the idea.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 5, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> My doubts about this happening on Sunday were clearly misplaced, I’d forgotten that before they U-turn they always double-down and brief hard against the idea.



AKA doing the best they can to stress and annoy everyone actually involved in education? 

(I know lots of remarks like that been posted before upthread, but *WTF*  -- it angers _me_, and I'm not even a parent or teacher!)


----------



## 20Bees (Jan 5, 2021)

I wonder why nurseries and playgrounds remain open this time. Dribbling toddlers aren’t vectors of transmission?  The playground here is always heaving, with little ones climbing over each other as much as they cluster on the slides and climbing frames, and parents huddled together chatting. Not much evidence of distancing, masks or wiping the equipment either. 

My 4 year old grandson’s year were home from nursery for two weeks before Christmas due to staff members testing positive. He went back yesterday, but I wonder how long they can stay open if staff start dropping like flies.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

I wonder how much money was spent on school testing that will now never happen.

Still, I played it well. I volunteered to help with tests, but will never actually have to do them


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 5, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I keep thinking we made a mistake and should’ve sent her in. It feels so lonely.


Ultimately you are the parent and care for your family is your priority. If you feel it isn't safe then you are probably right. You made the best choice well done. Difficult, yes, but safer too.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Jan 5, 2021)

Teacher Covid rates up to 333% above average
Teacher coronavirus infections far outstripping local rates, figures from three local authorities obtained by the NASUWT reveal
You need to register to read the rest but I think we get the idea





						New Magazine Experience
					






					www.tes.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

Indeliblelink said:


> Teacher Covid rates up to 333% above average
> Teacher coronavirus infections far outstripping local rates, figures from three local authorities obtained by the NASUWT reveal
> You need to register to read the rest but I think we get the idea
> 
> ...




Same NASUWT who were telling their members on Sunday that their concerns for their health were not adequate grounds not to attend work


----------



## maomao (Jan 5, 2021)

The facilities manager and his team at the school where I work had spent the entire Christmas holiday refitting a whole building at the school as a testing centre at a cost of tens of thousands. They put some sort of special floor in (I wasn't totally listening tbh) and several thousand peak flow tests were delivered to the school on Monday morning. What a fucking waste of time and money.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 5, 2021)

maomao said:


> The facilities manager and his team at the school where I work had spent the entire Christmas holiday refitting a whole building at the school as a testing centre at a cost of tens of thousands. They put some sort of special floor in (I wasn't totally listening tbh) and several thousand peak flow tests were delivered to the school on Monday morning. What a fucking waste of time and money.



Won't they still be open for vulnerable children and children of essential workers? All that will surely be needed both for those pupils and staff attending during lockdown, and certainly when everyone starts returning after lockdown.


----------



## maomao (Jan 5, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Won't they still be open for vulnerable children and children of essential workers? All that will surely be needed both for those pupils and staff attending during lockdown, and certainly when everyone starts returning after lockdown.


There are expected to be less than 60 students and a dozen staff in during lockdown and local services could have coped. I know they're no longer looking to staff the testing centre anyway. Whether they'll be required in Feb/March remains to be seen but what's certain is that no one needed to give up their Christmas holiday.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

maomao said:


> The facilities manager and his team at the school where I work had spent the entire Christmas holiday refitting a whole building at the school as a testing centre at a cost of tens of thousands. They put some sort of special floor in (I wasn't totally listening tbh) and several thousand peak flow tests were delivered to the school on Monday morning. What a fucking waste of time and money.



At our school they'd set up two trestle tables in the hall and that was it. Even the head didn't know what was supposed to be happening with testing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

maomao said:


> There are expected to be less than 60 students and a dozen staff in during lockdown and local services could have coped. I know they're no longer looking to staff the testing centre anyway. Whether they'll be required in Feb/March remains to be seen but what's certain is that no one needed to give up their Christmas holiday.



With us it's 25 kids and 20 teachers. The five year group classes will be supervised in one-hour blocks so that each teacher is on the rota maybe three or four hours per week, but they've been told that if they're needed for an hour then they're expected to be in for the whole day 'just in case' although just in case of what is not specified. 

Year 10 is down to one kid, who still needs to be isolated from other years and so will be in her own room (probably her own building in fact) with a teacher to herself.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 5, 2021)

Wasn't sure which thread this should go in, but might as well go here:


----------



## Thora (Jan 5, 2021)

20Bees said:


> I wonder why nurseries and playgrounds remain open this time. Dribbling toddlers aren’t vectors of transmission?  The playground here is always heaving, with little ones climbing over each other as much as they cluster on the slides and climbing frames, and parents huddled together chatting. Not much evidence of distancing, masks or wiping the equipment either.
> 
> My 4 year old grandson’s year were home from nursery for two weeks before Christmas due to staff members testing positive. He went back yesterday, but I wonder how long they can stay open if staff start dropping like flies.


Nursery workers (unless in school/state nurseries) are not usually unionised.  My daughter's nursery which is part of an academy school chain is shut.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 5, 2021)

maomao said:


> There are expected to be less than 60 students and a dozen staff in during lockdown and local services could have coped. I know they're no longer looking to staff the testing centre anyway. Whether they'll be required in Feb/March remains to be seen but what's certain is that no one needed to give up their Christmas holiday.


Our head sounded broken at the end of last term and I know that she and the rest of the SLT spent their Christmas trying to plan the logistics of mass testing. Now all that brain power has been wasted and their desperately needed breaks were ruined for nothing. 

It’s just so mindlessly cruel.


----------



## maomao (Jan 5, 2021)

Thora said:


> Nursery workers (unless in school/state nurseries) are not usually unionised.  My daughter's nursery which is part of an academy school chain is shut.


Nursery workers are shockingly undervalued. A large proportion of them should be reclassified as (and paid as) teachers because that's what they're actually doing.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2021)

Nothing we didn't know, but a concise record of the government's utter ineptitude:


----------



## May Kasahara (Jan 5, 2021)

One of our schools had their test kits delivered yesterday, missing a load of pieces


----------



## elbows (Jan 5, 2021)

A fleeting glimpse of the real priorities on show via the BBC live updates page:



> Even if all vulnerable people can be vaccinated by March, the first three months of the year will see economy-hitting school lockdowns, and therefore a possible double dip recession.



From the end of the 12:03 entry: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55542393


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

elbows said:


> A fleeting glimpse of the real priorities on show via the BBC live updates page:
> 
> 
> 
> From the end of the 12:03 entry: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55542393



You can't have a double-dip recession if you never get out of the first dip.

[That picture of the guy tapping his head and grinning]


----------



## ska invita (Jan 5, 2021)

New Magazine Experience
					






					www.tes.com
				




Exclusive: Teacher Covid rates up to 333% above average
Teacher coronavirus infections far outstripping local rates, figures from three local authorities obtained by the NASUWT reveal


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Wasn't sure which thread this should go in, but might as well go here:



thank you for sharing this - I'm encouraging my students to attend
Everyone who sends children to nursery should inform nursery staff about this - it's a notoriously under unionised and exploited sector - it would be great to see this change


----------



## baldrick (Jan 5, 2021)

maomao said:


> The facilities manager and his team at the school where I work had spent the entire Christmas holiday refitting a whole building at the school as a testing centre at a cost of tens of thousands. They put some sort of special floor in (I wasn't totally listening tbh) and several thousand peak flow tests were delivered to the school on Monday morning. What a fucking waste of time and money.


 Obviously that's dreadful but if this pandemic has taught schools anything, it's that no Govt policy lasts longer than five minutes.

As it turns out, we've received almost none of the equipment needed for testing. A few boxes of masks only. Fortunately we did no planning other than reserving some staff at agencies.


----------



## bendeus (Jan 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> New Magazine Experience
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just checking before I start banging this up across my social media feeds: does anyone know of it's possible that this is due to a higher prevalence of testing among teachers or conversely whether it's accurately reflective of sky high infection rates? Just wanted my facts straight in anticipation of the usual doubt/challenge 🙂


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 5, 2021)

bendeus said:


> Just checking before I start banging this up across my social media feeds: does anyone know of it's possible that this is due to a higher prevalence of testing among teachers or conversely whether it's accurately reflective of sky high infection rates? Just wanted my facts straight in anticipation of the usual doubt/challenge 🙂


I’m not aware of any teachers having had priority access to testing apart from a handful in September or October.  I think our school were given 4 testing kits - but they were only given out to staff showing symptoms.  Same as regular testing. And at any rate they were long gone before half term.


----------



## bendeus (Jan 5, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I’m not aware of any teachers having had priority access to testing apart from a handful in September or October.  I think our school were given 4 testing kits - but they were only given out to staff showing symptoms.  Same as regular testing. And at any rate they were long gone before half term.


Thanks, spanglechick


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 5, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> But it should be a government initiative, co-ordinated and, as you say, curated, and made easy for both schools and parents to access and supplement.


If this government take charge of such an initiative, I shudder to think of the end results


----------



## MrCurry (Jan 6, 2021)

So how will kids who should be sitting exams this year get their grades?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 6, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I’m not aware of any teachers having had priority access to testing apart from a handful in September or October.  I think our school were given 4 testing kits - but they were only given out to staff showing symptoms.  Same as regular testing. And at any rate they were long gone before half term.


The local Covid-19 'Lateral' flow centres were open to all comers until recently Tier changes and now they are restricted to the local area. 

Only mention this because a lot of the regular users attending were police and teachers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

MrCurry said:


> So how will kids who should be sitting exams this year get their grades?



They haven't cobbled that together yet because 'contingency plan' is a four-letter word to these clowns.


----------



## magneze (Jan 6, 2021)

BBC to put lessons on TV during lockdown
					

BBC Two and CBBC will show content for primary and secondary pupils to watch without the internet.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## MrCurry (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They haven't cobbled that together yet because 'contingency plan' is a four-letter word to these clowns.


ok. I think I heard last year they got the teachers to help with grading, but if the kids have been home studying a lot, that’s got to be even more difficult & risky this time around.  

Such a tough situation- I’m not sure how you can be fair to all kids.  Anyone who gets a grade lower than they expected is bound to think they have been disadvantaged by not getting to take an exam.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 6, 2021)

@ teachers - how is it decided who will go in to school to teach children who are still going in?


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> @ teachers - how is it decided who will go in to school to teach children who are still going in?



Different schools will vary.  

Last time ours was a volunteer rota of staff, but didn’t include anyone clinically vulnerable or with caring responsibilities at home.  

It wasn’t teaching per se.  Multiple year groups doing different work, so mostly facilitation/supervision.  

This time there’s been no talk of a rota and it wouldn’t be possible because the teaching staff will have to be remote teaching their full timetable.  It’s being covered by the LSA team in the first instance.  

Students will be following their full timetables online.  That means that at least the first third of the lesson will be live (key stage 3 have 100minute lessons, so at least 35 mins live).  Key stage 4&5 have 150 min lessons).  Only sixth form are allowed to have cameras on.  The rest of the lesson time is given to the students completing a task which they submit via Google Classroom, though if they need help they can message with the teacher during the lesson.    

So the vulnerable and key worker kids (or as my school keeps calling them “the vulkeys”) pretty much just get on with that.  Supervision is all most of them need.  I think our most serious EAL kids are in school so our language LSA staff can support them, and the same for some of our SEN ECHP students. Other LSAs are helping through Google classroom and joining the Meets calls if the kids aren’t in school.

All of that is specific to my school, which is a mid sized 11-18 comprehensive in a area with quite a lot of financial deprivation.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 6, 2021)

Thanks.  I'm meant to start in a similar sort of school on the 18th, am wondering whether they will a) ask me to go in b) ask me to do online c) ask me to do nothing but still pay me d) put the position on hold e) say they don't need me at all


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

MrCurry said:


> ok. I think I heard last year they got the teachers to help with grading, but if the kids have been home studying a lot, that’s got to be even more difficult & risky this time around.
> 
> Such a tough situation- I’m not sure how you can be fair to all kids.  Anyone who gets a grade lower than they expected is bound to think they have been disadvantaged by not getting to take an exam.



Different kids at different schools may have had very different amounts of time in school already thismyear as well. Our school was relatively unscathed but one year still missed several weeks of f2f teaching due to isolation intp the autumn term.

I don't know what the solution is tbh, but then I'm very much against assessment-based qualifications anyway. Passing exams is a useless skill in the real world and in training kids to do it we lose so many opportunities to help them develop skills that aren't useless; imdependent research, critical thinking etc.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Different kids at different schools may have had very different amounts of time in school already thismyear as well. Our school was relatively unscathed but one year still missed several weeks of f2f teaching due to isolation intp the autumn term.
> 
> I don't know what the solution is tbh, but then I'm very much against assessment-based qualifications anyway. Passing exams is a useless skill in the real world and in training kids to do it we lose so many opportunities to help them develop skills that aren't useless; imdependent research, critical thinking etc.


Now would be a good time to start making a profound paradigm shift.

Of course, there are far too many vested interests involved for that to happen.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> @ teachers - how is it decided who will go in to school to teach children who are still going in?



At our school it's one teacher and a TA supervising each year group for a whole day, on a rota, with the teachers working at home the rest of the time. The kids who are in will just be given laptops and set the same work as the kids at home get, according to the 'normal' timetable, so there won't be a subject-specific teacher with them most of the time just whoever is on the rota for that day. 

I'm likely to be in one day a week when my subject tutor is on the rota for babysitting year 8. Realisitically I'm not going to be much use to anyone but maybe I can free up some proper teachers to spend more time preparing online stuff.

Hopefully I will be able to record some video demonstrations and stuff as well because these are important for my subject (science) and I need the practice.


----------



## Winot (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Passing exams is a useless skill in the real world and in training kids to do it we lose so many opportunities to help them develop skills that aren't useless; imdependent research, critical thinking etc.



I have a lot of sympathy with the view that we should move away from an exams-only assessment model. However, your statement here goes too far. Most of my 25 year career (law) has been spent doing things that exams are an extremely good preparation for.

That’s not to say that there are not other skills which are presently underdeveloped, but it is not true to say that exams are useless.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

Winot said:


> I have a lot of sympathy with the view that we should move away from an exams-only assessment model. However, your statement here goes too far. Most of my 25 year career (law) has been spent doing things that exams are an extremely good preparation for.
> 
> That’s not to say that there are not other skills which are presently underdeveloped, but it is not true to say that exams are useless.



My subject is science, a discipline in which conceptual frameworks are more important than isolated pieces of information. Exams create a focus on isolated bits of information. This dichotomy is a massive oversimplification of course but it's an established fact that summative assessments have a negative effect on both teachers' and students' autonomy, and thus their motivation and intrinsic interest in a subject. 

Annoyingly, while exams may be useless revision doesn't have to be useless at all. Focussed recall practice and structured, self-directed revision can have great benefits for both memory and understanding. But 'cramming' type revision with the explicit goal of keeping stuff in your head for a few days or weeks, in preparation for an arbitrary and externally-imposed assessment task, cancels out many or all of those benefits. 

I'll stop now before I paraphrase the entirety of the essay I just handed in


----------



## Winot (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> My subject is science, a discipline in which conceptual frameworks are more important than isolated pieces of information. Exams create a focus on isolated bits of information. This dichotomy is a massive oversimplification of course but it's an established fact that summative assessments have a negative effect on both teachers' and students' autonomy, and thus their motivation and intrinsic interest in a subject.
> 
> Annoyingly, while exams may be useless revision doesn't have to be useless at all. Focussed recall practice and structured, self-directed revision can have great benefits for both memory and understanding. But 'cramming' type revision with the explicit goal of keeping stuff in your head for a few days or weeks, in preparation for an arbitrary and externally-imposed assessment task, cancels out many or all of those benefits.
> 
> I'll stop now before I paraphrase the entirety of the essay I just handed in



I think there’s big difference between the ‘usefulness’ of exams taken in science and in the humanities (I have a chemistry degree and then trained in law).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

Winot said:


> I think there’s big difference between the ‘usefulness’ of exams taken in science and in the humanities (I have a chemistry degree and then trained in law).



Well some exams do require extended answers, synthesis, analysis etc. Science exams, while they could easily be set up that way, generally aren't. A level science exams have improved though, there's a lot more thinking required now than when I sat A levels (checks watch) 20 years ago.


----------



## Winot (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well some exams do require extended answers, synthesis, analysis etc. Science exams, while they could easily be set up that way, generally aren't. A level science exams have improved though, there's a lot more thinking required now than when I sat A levels (checks watch) 20 years ago.



30 years for me so will shut up now


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 6, 2021)

A level science subjects deserve credit for not dumbing down over the last decade or so as some other subjects might be accused of.

And whoever writes the WJEC (I think) Law A level paper deserves a prize of some sort. Always used to try and sneak a look at it if possible because it is so well written, hilarious in fact. A litany of ever worsening calamity, from which I think the student is meant to decide culpability/responsibility. It really is funny.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> A level science subjects deserve credit for not dumbing down over the last decade or so as some other subjects might be accused of.



Quite the opposite if anything. I'm really impressed by the A level biology program and the standard of exam questions. GCSEs on the other hand...


----------



## N_igma (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> @ teachers - how is it decided who will go in to school to teach children who are still going in?



We are doing a rota. My school had all contingency measures in place since before Christmas in anticipation of this happening.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Thanks.  I'm meant to start in a similar sort of school on the 18th, am wondering whether they will a) ask me to go in b) ask me to do online c) ask me to do nothing but still pay me d) put the position on hold e) say they don't need me at all


What have you been employed to do? And how did you get the job? Fixed term contract?


----------



## maomao (Jan 6, 2021)

At my school TAs (or LSAs as we call them) are doing the looking after of vulnerable kids. This might have to change now given that according to The Guardian today any kid who doesn't have access to a laptop at home is now classified as vulnerable and allowed to go to school. I suppose it's easier than just giving them the laptops they were promised. 

I'm getting about two thirds attendance for my online classes. I think keyworkers'/vulnerable kids are attending from classrooms cause I've spotted two that I know of so far in my classes. Everything I've done so far feels productive but I can't get the buggers to speak online.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 6, 2021)

maomao said:


> At my school TAs (or LSAs as we call them) are doing the looking after of vulnerable kids. This might have to change now given that according to The Guardian today any kid who doesn't have access to a laptop at home is now classified as vulnerable and allowed to go to school. I suppose it's easier than just giving them the laptops they were promised.
> 
> I'm getting about two thirds attendance for my online classes. I think keyworkers'/vulnerable kids are attending from classrooms cause I've spotted two that I know of so far in my classes. Everything I've done so far feels productive but I can't get the buggers to speak online.


Is their normal class teacher also in the live lesson? What do they suggest?


----------



## maomao (Jan 6, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Is their normal class teacher also in the live lesson? What do they suggest?


Still waiting for feedback tbh. My mentor has gone incommunicado but I'll be talking to today's class teacher a bit later. It's all pretty overwhelming as I haven't even seen anyone else teach online yet (though I should have a chance soon).


----------



## miss direct (Jan 6, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> What have you been employed to do? And how did you get the job? Fixed term contract?


Teach First Academic Mentor. I don't have a contract yet


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Teach First Academic Mentor. I don't have a contract yet


Have you emailed the school?

Edit.  Schools are not always best with admin, and with the chaos of the last few days, contacting you might have fallen off their radar.  But it’s very reasonable to contact the school (ideally, whoever you’ll be reporting to, but if not, the head via the office).  You need to know.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 6, 2021)

Yes, I've been in touch with the subject lead, but silence so far. I have two weeks of online training first, which I'm in the middle of - not feeling very motivated when I don't even know whether the position will go ahead. Let's see.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Yes, I've been in touch with the subject lead, but silence so far. I have two weeks of online training first, which I'm in the middle of - not feeling very motivated when I don't even know whether the position will go ahead. Let's see.


It’s not impossible that they’re off sick.  Tricky.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 6, 2021)

I will continue being patient and plod on with the training. Hopefully they'll make use of me online somehow.


----------



## baldrick (Jan 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Yes, I've been in touch with the subject lead, but silence so far. I have two weeks of online training first, which I'm in the middle of - not feeling very motivated when I don't even know whether the position will go ahead. Let's see.


I would ring the school & speak to the head's PA. It's probably all fine, but you need the reassurance and they will understand that.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 6, 2021)




----------



## Winot (Jan 6, 2021)

I have a man-crush on Ros


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 6, 2021)

More stuff that could and should have been preventable, with more foresight into planning (from the start/from September/from half term/prior to Xmas).









						English schools struggle with demand for key worker places
					

Parents urged to be honest in requests for children to be allowed to go to class during lockdown




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 6, 2021)

What I mean, ftr, is that a focus on blended learning, expanding spaces for learning outside of existing school grounds, providing adequate equipment for all children to have online access - money actually put into that - instead of the grand promise of costs being covered to make the huge demands on schools which was then withdrawn/quietly reduced, along with a huge amount of the promised costs to schools to make them 'covid secure'.

The continual lack of _any bloody plan at all_, just barking ever changing instructions at schools, at their staff, while pass-agg _thanking them_ at the same time and the inevitible trickle down to parents who don't understand the new rules (I swear it was TWO 'critical' workers yesterday or the day before, with no mention of wfh within that as an exclusion and where 'critical' has only just replaced 'keyworkers'), or who are beaten down themselves, or even those who _are_ just taking the piss (cos you gotta plan for that, too!) - this pile of shit lands in _one place_, time and time again. Cunts.

ETA - what I am quietly fucking weeping about - while my own girl (Yr 11) cried on Day 1, with the stress of it all - is how fucking successful this is, as a route towards people turning against each other.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 6, 2021)

Sister has been asked to stop parents at the school gates and make them prove they are key workers  She refused of course but a difficult position.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sister has been asked to stop parents at the school gates and make them prove they are key workers  She refused of course but a difficult position.



It is. School staff forced into acting as police, while being in a shitty, vulnerable position themselves.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sister has been asked to stop parents at the school gates and make them prove they are key workers  She refused of course but a difficult position.



Mrs K has been asking for proof of critical worker status, and in around 50% of cases, not being given it.

One parent today gave a photocopied 'to whom it may concern' letter that had been robbed off the internet: it still had 'employers name here', 'employees name here' gaps. That parent got the big FO. 

Some schools near her have found themselves with 70% of their pupils in school, with, of course, the requisite number of staff being exposed to contagion. they are now furiously back-pedalling and requiring proof, with ugly scenes at the school gates when significant numbers not being in able to provide any.

_some _people are taking the piss. There's no heroism or sticking it to the man in this - every extra child in school means more teachers and TA's having to sit in a Petri dish for 6 hours a day. Trying it on is a cunts trick, and the cunts who do it can fuck off.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 6, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Mrs K has been asking for proof of critical worker status, and in around 50% of cases, not being given it.
> 
> One parent today gave a photocopied 'to whom it may concern' letter that had been robbed off the internet: it still had 'employers name here', 'employees name here' gaps. That parent got the big FO.
> 
> ...


I find it hard to be angry at parents desperate to get their kids into school in these desperate times. And that's from my perspective as a parent and a teacher.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 6, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Mrs K has been asking for proof of critical worker status, and in around 50% of cases, not being given it.
> 
> One parent today gave a photocopied 'to whom it may concern' letter that had been robbed off the internet: it still had 'employers name here', 'employees name here' gaps. That parent got the big FO.
> 
> ...



I get it (I am not one of the staff you mention but I do work in a school). 

Genuine question - fucking off the reactionary blame for a minute - do you think there could have been a lead up to this that would've reduced the likelihood of this outcome, as well as allowing schools to have fully focused on some (inevitable) online learning, ideally mixed with some face to face, obvs, had there been any engagement around how they could realistically implement that? 

Fwiw, I do.


----------



## May Kasahara (Jan 6, 2021)

Meanwhile the govt has refused to refine its definition of 'vulnerable', meaning that they are effectively saying special schools and APs should be open to the full cohort. My colleagues are tearing their fucking hair out. And that cuntwad Williamson is putting out the message that Ofsted will enforce requirements around remote learning, like schools aren't fucking falling over themselves to scramble the best available provision for their kids in the face of repeated and sustained obstructions. There is no sufficient expression of disgust for these people.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 6, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Meanwhile the govt has refused to refine its definition of 'vulnerable', meaning that they are effectively saying special schools and APs should be open to the full cohort. My colleagues are tearing their fucking hair out. And that cuntwad Williamson is putting out the message that Ofsted will enforce requirements around remote learning, like schools aren't fucking falling over themselves to scramble the best available provision for their kids in the face of repeated and sustained obstructions. There is no sufficient expression of disgust for these people.


This is, however, a huge problem for many of the parents I know. Loads and loads of parents who have children with complex needs whose only respite is school and whose children regress in a way that parents of non disabled children could never imagine, being told they are not vulnerable. They are and they should be offered school. What we need is a government supplying them with the staff, space and cash to implement this as online learning is not accessible for these children.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

sheothebudworths said:


> I get it (I am not one of the staff you mention but I do work in a school).
> 
> Genuine question - fucking off the reactionary blame for a minute - do you think there could have been a lead up to this that would've reduced the likelihood of this outcome, as well as allowing schools to have fully focused on some (inevitable) online learning, ideally mixed with some face to face, obvs, had there been any engagement around how they could realistically implement that?
> 
> Fwiw, I do.



On monday all the staff were in and planning for two weeks of online work. They moved bits of the curriculum around based on what could most easily be taught online and what could not. Then first thing on tuesday all of that work went in the shredder, because now everything is going to have to be online. That was 100% avoidable.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

nagapie said:


> This is, however, a huge problem for many of the parents I know. Loads and loads of parents who have children with complex needs whose only respite is school and whose children regress in a way that parents of non disabled children could never imagine, being told they are not vulnerable. They are and they should be offered school. What we need is a government supplying them with the staff, space and cash to implement this as online learning is not accessible for these children.



All children are vulnerable, is the truth of it. They're children. And they've been sold down the river.


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## Dogsauce (Jan 6, 2021)

According to the Mrs who is on a whatsapp group for parents of reception kids, there were parents planning to just drop their kids at the school this morning even though they weren’t on the list. In the end there was just one ‘unauthorised’ bloke that turned up but he seemed more confused than belligerent and retreated without protest.

we offered 56 places for key workers (out of a usual total of 400 kids), had to be both parents key workers to qualify as there were a lot of applications and it would have otherwise been nearly a full school which kind of defeats the point. I think we have reception (8 kids today) then paired year groups (1&2, 3&4, 5&6) with about 15 each. Online content seems to be pretty good, but my son‘s teacher in reception is incredibly dedicated (always last out in the evening) so not too surprising. The head was mumbling something about requesting proof from parents today, just to make sure it’s fair to everyone as a lot of parents didn’t get accepted.


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## nagapie (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> All children are vulnerable, is the truth of it. They're children. And they've been sold down the river.


Yes, they've been sold down the river. Yes, all children are vulnerable. But some kids are much more vulnerable and so are their families, they have to be looked after no matter what the Covid situation is.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Yes, they've been sold down the river. Yes, all children are vulnerable. But some kids are much more vulnerable and so are their families, they have to be looked after no matter what the Covid situation is.



Yes I understand that distinctions have to be made but it's a grim thing to have to do and no right answers.


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## nagapie (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes I understand that distinctions have to be made but it's a grim thing to have to do and no right answers.


It is a grim situation all round. But teachers worked in lockdown 1 too. I don't expect vulnerable or shielding teachers to work but if your job is to support those most vulnerable in society, it doesn't stop. In the same way that carers and medics etc will keep on working.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2021)

nagapie said:


> It is a grim situation all round. But teachers worked in lockdown 1 too. I don't expect vulnerable or shielding teachers to work but if your job is to support those most vulnerable in society, it doesn't stop. In the same way that carers and medics etc will keep on working.



I meant the grim job of deciding who should be allowed in to schools. As for actual teaching, I've got no problem going in to work. With the small groups of kids who will be in it should actually be possible to work relatively safely. I don't know any teachers who don't want to be teaching.


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## May Kasahara (Jan 6, 2021)

nagapie said:


> This is, however, a huge problem for many of the parents I know. Loads and loads of parents who have children with complex needs whose only respite is school and whose children regress in a way that parents of non disabled children could never imagine, being told they are not vulnerable. They are and they should be offered school. What we need is a government supplying them with the staff, space and cash to implement this as online learning is not accessible for these children.



I completely agree. Fuck, my colleagues don't want to be put in this position - they want to be supported to offer schooling to the children and families they work with every day, not stuck between families at breaking point and inflexible wonks waving badly written guidance. They want to be supported by those 'in charge', and they aren't being. Instead they're being told they must be open to all while not putting anyone at risk, which is impossible. 

Sorry, I'm a bit drunk and very angry. Might delete later. Everyone is being failed here - kids, families, staff. Everyone except the rich complacent fucks in parliament.


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## nagapie (Jan 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I meant the grim job of deciding who should be allowed in to schools. As for actual teaching, I've got no problem going in to work. With the small groups of kids who will be in it should actually be possible to work relatively safely. I don't know any teachers who don't want to be teaching.


The problem is that SEN schools are turning kids away by the droves as all their students qualify to be in and parents firsly have a much better understanding this time that their children are not at much risk from covid and secondly have used up all their resources and energy in lockdown 1. The better schools are at least starting to look at blended learning so every child will get some days in school at least. But a lot of SEN schools are just saying no unless the child is at risk of violence at home or both parents are also critical workers. It's a very shit situation, families are breaking under the pressure. But yes, entirely of the government's making as usual and well within their ability to fix some of it.


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## Badgers (Jan 7, 2021)

Then my sister gets emails like this and makes the whole job worth it  



> Hi,
> 
> Just wanted to say a big thank you to you all today. J##### had a major wobble about coming back to school this morning and was worrying about all the changes he may face.
> 
> ...


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## Aladdin (Jan 7, 2021)

ASTI (union for secondary teachers) in Ireland has instructed its members not to go cooperate with DES arrangements for opening schools from next week to leaving certificate students 3 days a week.

All Primary schools are closed til Jan 31st  
Ongoing issues re DES instructing SEN schools to open. Unions and teachers in SEN not satisfied the reopening can be safe due to rapidly increasing numbers and 30% of tests showing up as the new variant. 

Huge pressure on hospitals. CEO of the HSE saying unprecedented pressure on services now. 

Norma Foley Minister for Education still pushing for Special schools to open fully.

NPHET needs to step up to the plate and explain what exponential growth means to her.


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## nagapie (Jan 8, 2021)

.


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## elbows (Jan 8, 2021)

Not good:









						Surge in pupils at school in lockdown sparks call for limit
					

With attendance as high as 50% in some areas, heads call for pupil limits in England's lockdown schools.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## wtfftw (Jan 8, 2021)

There's a petition Prioritise teachers, school and childcare staff for Covid-19 vaccination









						Petition: Prioritise teachers, school and childcare staff for Covid-19 vaccination
					

Advice from the JCVI on the priority groups for a Covid-19 vaccine does not include school/childcare workers. This petition calls for these workers, who cannot distance or use PPE, to be kept safe at work by being put on the vaccine priority list when such a list is adopted into government policy.




					petition.parliament.uk


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## brogdale (Jan 8, 2021)

_Triples all round!  

_


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## hitmouse (Jan 8, 2021)

Can't find anything more substantial than a single tweet about it, but UVW are claiming some nursery staff are also now Section 44ing:


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## Bears (Jan 8, 2021)

miss direct I've got a similar role in a primary school and I haven't had any meaningful contact from the school yet.

Poor line manager (deputy head) finally sent be an email at 9.45pm last night promising to ring me today, but still couldn't. I dread to think what they're doing through. As far as I can tell, their online provision last time was links to videos on the main school website for fun things to do at home. I don't think there will be many children at this school who can do their learning remotely. They must have spent this week trying to design a whole curriculum and decide who is vulnerable enough to come into school. It must be heartbreaking. I really wish I could help now.


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## alex_ (Jan 8, 2021)

Bears said:


> miss direct I've got a similar role in a private school and I haven't had any meaningful contact from the school yet.
> 
> Poor line manager (deputy head) finally sent be an email at 9.45pm last night promising to ring me today, but still couldn't. I dread to think what they're doing through. As far as I can tell, their online provision last time was links to videos on the main school website for fun things to do at home. I don't think there will be many children at this school who can do their learning remotely. They must have spent this week trying to design a whole curriculum and decide who is vulnerable enough to cover into school. It must be heartbreaking. I really wish I could help now.



people are paying fees for this ?


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## Spandex (Jan 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> Not good:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think there's a number of things going on to cause more kids to be in school this lockdown.

The critical worker list is slightly wider, the definition of vulnerable is slightly wider, but this on it's own doesn't tell the whole story. During the first lockdown the take up of school places from those eligible was minimal. This time more people who are entitled to send their kids to school are choosing to.

One reason is the expectation of how long schools will be closed for. When schools closed in March there was a widespread expectation that the schools would be shut for a few weeks. Not many expected the schools to remain closed for most kids for six months. This time the ever optimistic Johnson has said six weeks, Gove chipped in with 'maybe March'. Muddling through for a few weeks is a different prospect to several months.

When schools closed in March there was a novelty to staying home and fitting work with home schooling. For a lot of people that novelty quickly wore off and some people found themselves in desperate situations. Single mums with two young kids trying to work full time on the laptop while teaching one kid and occupying the other. People working flat out 7 days a week to do two jobs, plus homeschooling plus normal childcare plus housework. Kids becoming depressed as their horizons were shrunk to their immediate family at home, their parents stressed out, and only going out to the same few socially distanced locations. Older SEN kids staying in their bedroom for months on end. People are going into this lockdown with their eyes open about what it means.

The schools have got better at delivering online teaching. In April online resources tended to be some hastily cobbled together worksheets on the school website to occupy kids for an hour or two. This time schools have got better with online delivery platforms and Zoom learning. There is greater ability to deliver fuller curriculums. And for parents that means more time home schooling younger kids, who are less able to get in with it themselves.

During the spring lockdown some employers were more understanding of childcare commitments, willing to accept the hit for a few weeks that turned into a few months. This time, knowing how long this could last and the impact, there is less willingness to accept working parents barely doing any work as they try to fit in home schooling and childcare around their jobs.

All this has led to a greater take up of vulnerable and critical worker status. While some papers (Guardian, I'm looking at you) like to focus on the small number of people that are trying to play the system - sexy stories of people not playing by the rules are ever popular - it's the system itself working as it's been written that is causing the larger number of kids in school this time. If less kids are going to be in school the government needs to tighten up what counts as critical work, put more support in place for working parents and be prepared to take the hit to productivity. They could've spent the last six months looking at expanding the space and staffing for schools to prepare for this situation, but planning and thinking through consequences isn't this government's strong point.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jan 9, 2021)

Spandex said:


> I think there's a number of things going on to cause more kids to be in school this lockdown.
> 
> The critical worker list is slightly wider, the definition of vulnerable is slightly wider, but this on it's own doesn't tell the whole story. During the first lockdown the take up of school places from those eligible was minimal. This time more people who are entitled to send their kids to school are choosing to.
> 
> ...


This is a great explanation.    I'd really like to share it with a friend who is a teacher ...is that ok?


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## purenarcotic (Jan 9, 2021)

Some kids who were not previously defined as vulnerable will now have become vulnerable for one reason or another; there has been an increase in families with social workers, children living in refuges or temporary accommodation are vulnerable (and there has been an increase in reporting around DV and subsequently, an increase in victims and children leaving), children who had MH crises over the earlier lockdowns etc. Even if this relates to very small numbers of children, it will feel like a very big increase as we’re trying to keep numbers so low. I suspect none of this was built into modelling or planning for the future...


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## Spandex (Jan 9, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> This is a great explanation.    I'd really like to share it with a friend who is a teacher ...is that ok?


Sure. Help yourself


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## platinumsage (Jan 9, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> Some kids who were not previously defined as vulnerable will now have become vulnerable for one reason or another; there has been an increase in families with social workers, children living in refuges or temporary accommodation are vulnerable (and there has been an increase in reporting around DV and subsequently, an increase in victims and children leaving), children who had MH crises over the earlier lockdowns etc. Even if this relates to very small numbers of children, it will feel like a very big increase as we’re trying to keep numbers so low. I suspect none of this was built into modelling or planning for the future...



Children without laptops or space to study at home are now classed as vulnerable e.g. if the parents need the sole computer to work from home then the children can now attend school.


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## purenarcotic (Jan 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Children without laptops or space to study at home are now classed as vulnerable e.g. if the parents need the sole computer to work from home then the children can now attend school.



Yes, that too. That relates to a much larger group of children than perhaps previously thought. Personally, I think we should be seeing a bigger drive to get these kids access to tech at home, partly to help keep people away from mixing with each other and partly because it’s 2021 and actually we don’t live in a world any longer where you can cope without every member of the family having their own tech.


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## Bears (Jan 9, 2021)

alex_ said:


> people are paying fees for this ?


Stupid autocorrect. I'm at a PRIMARY school in a deprived area.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2021)

Spandex said:


> I think there's a number of things going on to cause more kids to be in school this lockdown.
> 
> The critical worker list is slightly wider, the definition of vulnerable is slightly wider, but this on it's own doesn't tell the whole story. During the first lockdown the take up of school places from those eligible was minimal. This time more people who are entitled to send their kids to school are choosing to.
> 
> ...



Even the people supposedly 'playing the system', we don't know anything about their circumstances with home or work, or how their kids might have dealt with the previous lockdown. In many cases it will be a parent simply trying to do what's best for their child, which is what parents are supposed to do. Up against people testing or ignoring the rules because they want to get pissed with their mates or they want to sit this one out in their holiday homes, I'm much more inclined to see the perspective of parents who may be trying their luck with what are necessarily vague and arbitrary rules.

Because this round of closures was pulled out of Johnson's arse with no warning, there are once again few support structures in place, and no increase in resources or staffing for schools at all. And still as usual most people are doing as they're told and keeping their kids at home. A quarter of schools being 30% full does not equate to 'bursting at the seams' in my book. Nor is it proof that people are taking the piss. In some schools there are just a lot of vulnerable kids, in others a high proportion of parents will be in essential jobs. Maybe in the suburbs where the guardian lives most people are insurance brokers and estate agents with well-adjusted, suitably repressed children but in inner city London the picture will be very different.

So no, I'm not upset about _relatively_ high numbers of kids going into _some_ primary schools. I'm upset about the many, many negligent and selfish behaviours that have combined to get us to the point where schools have had to close again; and about the people who should have ensured that contingency plans for supporting schools, parents and kids were in place and ready to roll out months ago.


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## Bears (Jan 9, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> Yes, that too. That relates to a much larger group of children than perhaps previously thought. Personally, I think we should be seeing a bigger drive to get these kids access to tech at home, partly to help keep people away from mixing with each other and partly because it’s 2021 and actually we don’t live in a world any longer where you can cope without every member of the family having their own tech.


But now 4,5,6 year olds also need their own tech. That wasn't necessary before.


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## purenarcotic (Jan 9, 2021)

Bears said:


> But now 4,5,6 year olds also need their own tech. That wasn't necessary before.



So then that should be provided...


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2021)

Bears said:


> But now 4,5,6 year olds also need their own tech. That wasn't necessary before.



The reason our school isn't doing synchronous online lessons is that so many kids are in families with maybe one laptop or tablet between 2-3 kids in different years and maybe a parent working from home.

Also the teachers can't be arsed. I can sympathise with that tbh. I've done real-time online teaching and it's shit, really exhausting trying to communicate with a wall of blank screens.


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## Bears (Jan 9, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The reason our school isn't doing synchronous online lessons is that so many kids are in families with maybe one laptop or tablet between 2-3 kids in different years and maybe a parent working from home.
> 
> Also the teachers can't be arsed. I can sympathise with that tbh. I've done real-time online teaching and it's shit, really exhausting trying to communicate with a wall of blank screens.


As a parent I'm really grateful that our 6 year old doesn't have online lessons. I don't think he would be able to sustain concentration that way. 

There are lots of hugs and tears involved in home schooling this age group. He wouldn't want his classmates to see what he goes through to produce his work at home. Even if they couldn't see him, he'd be disappearing for a cry every so often and that's embarrassing. 

We have plenty of with to get us through the day peppered with videos and audio personalised feedback on his work. We had it for the whole of the last lockdown too. He hasn't fallen behind at all. I'm not sure how we pulled it off as parents both working full time, but we managed it. It couldn't have been achieved without the support he gets from the school.


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## nadia (Jan 9, 2021)

I don't like the attitude from some quarters though that some children's education is more important than others, and even if you have the means the stock of laptops is pretty limited at the moment


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2021)

Bears said:


> As a parent I'm really grateful that our 6 year old doesn't have online lessons. I don't think he would be able to sustain concentration that way.



Yes synchronous lessons could end up excluding kids for lots of reasons, and putting more stress on parents who then have to keep up with timetables on top of whatever else they need to do.

Recorded lessons and activities with teachers available for questions/support is probably the best of a bad set of options.


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## Sue (Jan 9, 2021)

Yes, a friend's son is at school this time when he wasn't before. He has SEN and regressed really badly last time. His school has now classed him as vulnerable and despite the increased risks of Covid, she feels very strongly he's much better off at school than at home.


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## elbows (Jan 9, 2021)

Spandex said:


> One reason is the expectation of how long schools will be closed for. When schools closed in March there was a widespread expectation that the schools would be shut for a few weeks. Not many expected the schools to remain closed for most kids for six months. This time the ever optimistic Johnson has said six weeks, Gove chipped in with 'maybe March'. Muddling through for a few weeks is a different prospect to several months.



I dont know about this bit. People that were paying attention to what expectations were being set by the likes of Whitty should have been aware that 12 weeks of measures was a more realistic starting point. Johnson only added in stuff about reviewing the measures every few weeks later, and I dont recall many voices in the media actually taking that claim at face value.

Its hard for me to tell because I havet got data for what percentage of people believed what, and obviously I was paying rather close attention to the pandemic and the human response to it, so my households attitudes cannot be taken as typical. But certainly my mother was well aware that measures were only just going to be coming to a stage where relaxations were possible by the time of her birthday, which was mid-June, and this expectation was set early on.


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## Spandex (Jan 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> I dont know about this bit. People that were paying attention to what expectations were being set by the likes of Whitty should have been aware that 12 weeks of measures was a more realistic starting point. Johnson only added in stuff about reviewing the measures every few weeks later, and I dont recall many voices in the media actually taking that claim at face value.
> 
> Its hard for me to tell because I havet got data for what percentage of people believed what, and obviously I was paying rather close attention to the pandemic and the human response to it, so my households attitudes cannot be taken as typical. But certainly my mother was well aware that measures were only just going to be coming to a stage where relaxations were possible by the time of her birthday, which was mid-June, and this expectation was set early on.


In March, while Johnson was talking about 'turning the tide in 12 weeks' and 'sending the virus packing', the school gate gossip I was hearing was along the lines that the schools would probably be closed until after the Easter holidays, probably with a week or two added on. I don't think anyone was expecting it to be September.


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## Thora (Jan 9, 2021)

Yes - when schools shut in March most parents were definitely thinking in terms of a week or two each side of the school holidays.
This time the class WhatsApp discussions are more along the lines of “will they go back before the summer”.


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## elbows (Jan 9, 2021)

Thora said:


> Yes - when schools shut in March most parents were definitely thinking in terms of a week or two each side of the school holidays.
> This time the class WhatsApp discussions are more along the lines of “will they go back before the summer”.



I've tended to find that people have compressed memories of crucial periods in the early months of the pandemic, in part because the government were always behind the curve and kept having to supersede all their previous plans and announcements within days.

I would tend to associate talk about making the school holidays longer as part of an earlier mindset and expectations that were completely wiped out by the time we got to mid March. And then they would have popped up again later on when circuit breakers and shorter lockdowns were being discussed in response to autumn viral resurgence.

There should be evidence on this very forum of what peoples expectations ended up being at the time, although Im not sure which threads to look in for that.

But Im pretty confident expectations had gone far beyond what you suggest by that stage. I am confident because people were very good at looking for signs and reading between the lines back then, and there had been plenty of stuff in the press to set expectations fairly, and people were also very good at paying attention to sources that were more trusted in this pandemic than Johnson. And with that in mind, lets look at some of what was actually said in mid March when the government u-turned and shut the schools.

On March 18th Johnson refused to say how long schools in England would close for. The education secretary said schools were closed 'until further notice'. And Nicola Sturgeon said that she could not promise that schools would reopen before the summer holidays. And exams were cancelled. Days later, lockdown was announced. I cannot believe that most parents thought it was just a matter of weeks at that point. Later it is certainly true that expectations were raised that at least primary school children would go back in June, but this idea went down in flames quite quickly, and that backlash against the reopening would have been somewhat odd if it had happened under conditions where expectations for school closures were still on the shorter end of things.


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## elbows (Jan 9, 2021)

I have completed my brief forum research in regards the expectations in March.

Have a look at page 16 of the Corona Sofa thread (that thread is on page 2 of parenting forum). Thora your expectations expressed there were spot on in a post on March 18th, you read the situation accurately at the time, even before the official announcements later that day which I mentioned in my previous post.

The only reason I avoided compressed, somewhat distorted memories of this period is that I could feel it happening to my memories later, but in April and May I had reasons to repeatedly revisit all sorts of detail and timing from February and March, giving me the opportunity to reestablish the detail and pace of how things unfolded in the scary March period.


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## Thora (Jan 9, 2021)

elbows I wouldn’t confuse discussion on here with what people believed/expected in normal life.  Threads on here did not reflect the conversations I had with friends and family at the time at all.


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## spanglechick (Jan 9, 2021)

Thora said:


> elbows I wouldn’t confuse discussion on here with what people believed/expected in normal life.  Threads on here did not reflect the conversations I had with friends and family at the time at all.


Perhaps the perspective was different in primary? As soon as they cancelled the summer exams nobody at secondary thought there was a realistic plan to bring us back much before May/June.  I know we all packed up the stuff from our offices and classrooms with a view to being off for more than a few weeks, and with a consensus that September wouldn’t be out of the question.  And that’s not because as teachers we had any more information or insight.  It’s just that the tempo of the secondary school year is all orchestrated around exam season.


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## Spandex (Jan 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> Have a look at page 16 of the Corona Sofa thread (that thread is on page 2 of parenting forum).


I had a look at that page from 18th March, and while there's guesses of September, October and January there's also people saying they reckon the schools will be back after a long Easter, which was definately the feeling at my kids (primary) school gate. And there wasn't any chat at the school gate after that, as thats the day the school asked us to stop sending the kids in.


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## elbows (Jan 9, 2021)

Thora said:


> elbows I wouldn’t confuse discussion on here with what people believed/expected in normal life.  Threads on here did not reflect the conversations I had with friends and family at the time at all.



Correlations between 'real life' and things said here are much stronger than some might think, there have been all sorts of periods in this pandemic where the chatter here was a good proxy indicator of rising infections, evolving expectations etc.

Anyway I do not seek to refute peoples lived experiences on this one. What I cannot resist is underlining my point that expectations rapidly evolved in March. I dont know if I will ever find more data and evidence to support all of my claims, but I remain very confident that parents expectations about when schools would go back changed a lot during March, and attitudes earlier in March did not strongly resemble those held by mid to late March. Especially since attitudes towards lockdown in european countries were hideously wide of the mark in February, and is wasnt till Italy locked down in March that the penny really started to drop. And if anything, the establishment were further behind with coming to terms with such realities than the public were.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 9, 2021)

good analysis there Elbows


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## Thora (Jan 10, 2021)

Just spoke to my aunt who works in a school - Boris’s stupid 1 day of school on the 4th Jan has now meant half the school are isolating as three siblings tested positive a couple of days later!


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 11, 2021)

I know we're all on the same page with all this but if I may just vent about yet another aspect of the ridiculous farce that was last-minute school closures. If we'd been told before the end of last term that schools weren't reopening, the kids could have been sent home with their textbooks. This would have made putting online learning materials together about a billion times easier.

We probably don't have enough textbooks to go round tbf, but that's another problem that could have been addressed if schools had more than zero warning.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 11, 2021)

The 'everyone is sending their kids to school' narrative has certainly got some legs. My mum was telling me all about it. I told her to have a closer look at whatever article she read (guardian most likely) and see if the figures quoted really amounted to schools 'bursting at the seams' or whatever the headline was.

The media is such a state nowadays that you actually get a better picture of what's going on in schools, hospitals or wherever by collating anecdotes from vaguely trustworthy sources than by reading 'proper' journalism. For what it's worth, my placement school (rural secondary in a deprived area) only has 5% of students coming in, and many of those not every day. I haven't heard from a teacher or parent anywhere in the country of a school with lockdown attendance north of 20%.


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## muscovyduck (Jan 11, 2021)

It's gonna be very dependent on school by school as well innit. As I've said before I've moved about a lot, there's definitely certain neighbourhoods that seem full of school teachers, nurses and occupational therapists. Thinking about large cities and it seems like entire council wards where the occupants of the houses along every street goes something like: support worker - cop - train driver - tesco workers - carer . Just a symptom of the ridiculous class system we got going on


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 11, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> It's gonna be very dependent on school by school as well innit. As I've said before I've moved about a lot, there's definitely certain neighbourhoods that seem full of school teachers, nurses and occupational therapists. Thinking about large cities and it seems like entire council wards where the occupants of the houses along every street goes something like: support worker - cop - train driver - tesco workers - carer . Just a symptom of the ridiculous class system we got going on



Similarly deprived areas will have more vulnerable kids because surprise surprise, deprivation is bad for you.

I'd bet cash money those aren't the areas where parents are taking the piss though.


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 11, 2021)

Granted, I'm in an FE and He institute, but currently we have five students working on site.


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## Sue (Jan 12, 2021)

Just going to put this here.









						Ofsted gets thousands of emails praising schools after minister's remarks
					

Education secretary’s call for parents to complain if not happy with remote learning prompts deluge of positive comments




					www.theguardian.com


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## May Kasahara (Jan 12, 2021)

Interesting BMJ blog here on the lateral flow test programme...









						Covid-19: government must urgently rethink lateral flow test roll out - The BMJ
					

Plans to widen roll out risk serious harm No one questions the need for evidence based approaches to covid 19 treatments and vaccines. Why then is this principle ignored for [...]More...




					blogs.bmj.com


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## Badgers (Jan 13, 2021)

SisterBadgers school is around 60% currently. They live in an area with a lot of key workers so that is not a surprise. The staff are trying to rotate their time in school and online teaching. 

Several 'bubbles' of kids have been sent home. No new laptops or tech products have arrived.


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## wtfftw (Jan 13, 2021)

. Wrong thread


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## nagapie (Jan 13, 2021)

We're being told mini but still external assessments  for year 11😂


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## gaijingirl (Jan 13, 2021)

nagapie said:


> We're being told mini but still external assessments  for year 11😂



It was reported in the newspapers at the weekend.  There's a consultation coming up this week.


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## nagapie (Jan 13, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> It was reported in the newspapers at the weekend.  There's a consultation coming up this week.


Can you imagine still trying to cook up tests in the current climate.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 13, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Can you imagine still trying to cook up tests in the current climate.



It's just bonkers.  As usual.  So many potential pitfalls and problems.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2021)

I'm in school today and the internet is going down every three minutes so none of the kids can do anything 

E2a: nor can the teachers. Most of whom are in to record lessons, mark online work, and generally do internet-dependent activities.


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 14, 2021)

Regulator refuses to approve mass daily Covid testing at English schools
					

Exclusive: Boris Johnson’s plan to test millions of pupils a week in disarray after concerns raised




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## existentialist (Jan 14, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> Regulator refuses to approve mass daily Covid testing at English schools
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Boris Johnson’s plan to test millions of pupils a week in disarray after concerns raised
> ...


Nice to see it's all going to plan.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2021)

On a lighter note, today one of our year 8's (evidently a genius of some kind) somehow found the crack in the government's otherwise flawless public health messaging:

_"Ok but if we're all supposed to act like we've got covid, surely we shouldn't be in school at all?"_


----------



## Badgers (Jan 15, 2021)

As I mentioned up thread ref my sisters school


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As I mentioned up thread ref my sisters school




Which tory donor got that contract again?


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 15, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which tory donor got that contract again?


£96m laptop contracts went to Tory donor’s firm


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 15, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> £96m laptop contracts went to Tory donor’s firm


With this and the above info about them being useless for remote lessons I hope this is going to be another kick in the bollocks for the Tories. How many do they need? What cunts.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 15, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> £96m laptop contracts went to Tory donor’s firm



computacenter are one of the biggest resellers in the country, to be honest I hope they gave this contract to anyone who could deliver.

everyone in the world has been trying to buy laptops for the last 9 months, they are still hard to get hold of


----------



## existentialist (Jan 15, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> With this and the above info about them being useless for remote lessons I hope this is going to be another kick in the bollocks for the Tories. How many do they need? What cunts.


I know it _looks_ as if the Tories are trying to win a prize for Most Corrupt Government, but I genuinely think that this is a combination of complacency and graft, and this is more of a "meh" than an intended outcome. Though I admit, it's hard to tell


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 15, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> £96m laptop contracts went to Tory donor’s firm


Computacenter are a major supply of laptops and computers to commercial companies so they might very well have won the contract if it had gone to a bid. Hume also stepped down as CEO in 2001 so this article makes this deal sound a lot more corrupt than it probably is.
The thing with BoZo and his iffy mates after the the Jenrick affair and the pizza deliverry company awarded a shipping contract pretty much anything is going to get scrutinised.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 15, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Computacenter are a major supply of laptops and computers to commercial companies so they might very well have won the contract if it had gone to a bid. Hume also stepped down as CEO in 2001 so this article makes this deal sound a lot more corrupt than it probably is.
> The thing with BoZo and his iffy mates after the the Jenrick affair and the pizza deliverry company awarded a shipping contract pretty much anything is going to get scrutinised.



That's why you have a transparent purchasing process though isn't it. Giving out large contracts without that is incompetent at best and always leaves you open to accusations of corruption even if actually you're 'only' being slack.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 15, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I know it _looks_ as if the Tories are trying to win a prize for Most Corrupt Government, but I genuinely think that this is a combination of complacency and graft, and this is more of a "meh" than an intended outcome. Though I admit, it's hard to tell



I’m down with this - it cannot be that they are good at corruption and completely shit at brexit,covid and everything else.

It’s just dunning Kruger in action, they are shit, everyone they know are shit - so it’s all fucked up.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 19, 2021)

There are murmurs of schools not opening until Easter. Wonder when this will be decided.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 19, 2021)

miss direct said:


> There are murmurs of schools not opening until Easter. Wonder when this will be decided.



I think it's already been decided/assumed. All the political statements are talking about 'march', and the vaccine timetable effectively means that it's not going to be 'safe' to start undoing much until mid-to late march.

On a personal level we've taken the view that the kids won't go back till mid April and shaped work around that. Mrs K's head has the same view.

I assume that a bit more non-essential retail will start opening up around end Feb-early march, but that schools are going to be treated as plague pits.

On the brighter side we've booked a holiday in the lakes for the second week of Easter - it might come off, it might not....


----------



## girasol (Jan 19, 2021)

miss direct said:


> There are murmurs of schools not opening until Easter. Wonder when this will be decided.



Heard it too. Please let it just be rumours. 5 year old grand daughter is suffering, she misses school terribly. Her school has set up a really good remote learning routine, and I'm doing all the work with her when she's here a couple of days a week, but her other grandma isn't as keen, nor is her mum, so she's already lost some of the huge progress she had made in reading when schools reopened.

Imagine all the kids without good internet access or who only have a shared phone to work with. Or whose carers do none of the work with them. They lied to us when they said schools wouldn't close and now this. No school until after Easter???? Teachers/school staff should be vaccinated NOW so schools can reopen.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 19, 2021)

I think Easter is the absolute best chance, and anyone expecting kids back after half term is going to be sadly disappointed.


----------



## LDC (Jan 19, 2021)

Yup, I think after February half term is not happening, and also hear they're working on after Easter (April) at best.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 19, 2021)

TBH, now that cat is truly out of the bag, and it is obvious that schools play a major role in spreading infection, I can't see them reopening until this pandemic is at least partially under control. I do wonder, if the Government had realised what an awful lot of other people already knew - that children and schools were not some kind of special case when it came to cross-infection (regardless of the effect of Covid on younger people), we might by now be in a situation where schools could be open. As it is, I think the can got properly kicked down the road, and that's why we're here now.

So yes, you can add the emotional harm that is being done to children by being unable to go to school to the long rap sheet this Government is accruing.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 19, 2021)

I wonder whether the whole country will be the same or whether the tier system will make a difference.


----------



## magneze (Jan 19, 2021)

Yesterday was the first time on the news that I heard that the government were "considering" vaccinating teachers as part of the second 17million after the first 15million most vulnerable.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 19, 2021)

magneze said:


> Yesterday was the first time on the news that I heard that the government were "considering" vaccinating teachers as part of the second 17million after the first 15million most vulnerable.



Yeah, they are looking at trying to mesh clinical need with societal need after they get through the over 70's and extremely vunerable - coppers, NHS staff, Teachers/TA's, prison staff, supermarket staff etc.. and bumping the over 40's and less vunerable further off into the late spring/summer.


----------



## elbows (Jan 19, 2021)

girasol said:


> Teachers/school staff should be vaccinated NOW so schools can reopen.



I wouldnt expect that to magically fix the situation, since vaccinating staff wont stop kids spreading it between households.

Schools should not reopen for quite a long time. The time to get angry about that would have been the lengthy period where it was quite clear that the government did not intend to stop the situation growing to dangerous levels that inevitably required a lockdown that would last quite a long time and involve school closures.


----------



## girasol (Jan 19, 2021)

elbows said:


> I wouldnt expect that to magically fix the situation, since vaccinating staff wont stop kids spreading it between households.
> 
> Schools should not reopen for quite a long time. The time to get angry about that would have been the lengthy period where it was quite clear that the government did not intend to stop the situation growing to dangerous levels that inevitably required a lockdown that would last quite a long time and involve school closures.



I was angry back then too, but I can't retrospectively get angry and expect the government to actually give a shit about my anger .  Not even angry now, just feel very desperately sad for so many children.

HOWEVER if teachers/staff were vaccinated and there was regular testing in schools, any children who got sick, their bubble and their household can then self isolate.  It WOULD make a big difference.  Already when schools were back certain bubbles had to stay at home for 2 weeks.  Hopefully this time it'd be 10 days, causing less disruption to their education.


----------



## elbows (Jan 19, 2021)

Yes my choice of wording was poor and I have no intention of policing peoples current levels of anger, despair etc.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 19, 2021)

existentialist said:


> TBH, now that cat is truly out of the bag, and it is obvious that schools play a major role in spreading infection, I can't see them reopening until this pandemic is at least partially under control.


this is the most depressing thing i've read all year


----------



## kebabking (Jan 19, 2021)

wayward bob said:


> this is the most depressing thing i've read all year



Tell me about it - maths is on this afternoon's cards, and maths sucks arse.


----------



## elbows (Jan 20, 2021)

I just stuck this int he main UK thread then realised it was probably more appropriate to stick it here.

The inevitable consequence of MHRA not approving of the use of lateral flow tests to check close contacts in schools is emerging:









						Rollout of daily testing of close contacts paused in English schools
					

More work is needed to understand its benefits in schools in England given the new variant, health officials say.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




However I note that the BBC say nothing of the MHRA stuff and instead just refer to 'some scientists'. At least in the version of the article I saw at the time of writing this post.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 21, 2021)

Malware reportedly found on laptops given to children in England
					

Investigation launched after teachers warn of worm on devices handed out for home schooling




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## miss direct (Jan 21, 2021)

So if there will be two weeks notice, and they're not reviewing until half term, then the 1st of March would be the earliest schools would open, right?


----------



## kebabking (Jan 21, 2021)

miss direct said:


> So if there will be two weeks notice, and they're not reviewing until half term, then the 1st of March would be the earliest schools would open, right?



Yeah, but Williamson mentioned early today 'hopefully before Easter...' and it seems he got slapped down, so I'd be really surprised if schools go back before mid-April.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 21, 2021)

Minutes before Johnson announced the latest school closures Hunt tweeted to say schools will be shut until Easter, so Johnson halved that, cos he’s a prick.


----------



## May Kasahara (Jan 22, 2021)

Yeah, there's no way they will fully reopen to onsite attendance before Easter. Distinctly possible not after Easter, either.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 22, 2021)

My school offers lateral flow testing for staff and all nineteen kids who actually attend on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

I'm currently working on site (can you guess) Tuesdays and Thursdays.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 24, 2021)

Yeah, looking like Easter at earliest and maybe even only partial and phased.... not sure my kids will be back in full time before the end ofthis school year, and that may just have to be the case. With the new variant it's going to be hard to keep on top of things if everyone's in school at the same time.

I think it is finally dawning on this government, 10 months too late, that they are going to have to make unpopular decisions to control this thing.


----------



## cybershot (Jan 26, 2021)




----------



## Cloo (Jan 26, 2021)

That's just down the road from me (not either of my kid's school!)

I'm not sure my kids will be back in school full-time this school year, and I'm prepared to accept that. I just don't think they can justify sending kids back as before with full occupancy, I think it may have to be years alternating being in school some days, and it'll be staggered at that. Overall my kids are lucky they are not in vital education years, like Reception, Y1, exam years and maybe Y6 an Y7 might be counted as such, but I know it means they are last in line in terms of importance with getting back to school. I guess COVID will impact on all the last 3 years of my son being at primary - started in Y4, affecting Y5,  may well nvolve some school closure in winter of Y6 as well. And it'll affect the whole of my daughter's time in lower secondary school but please God might just be all normal in time for her to start GCSEs


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2021)

The NEU did a big announcement webinar thing today to say they're donating a million quid to a new project to help kids get access home learning resources. Reaction to this news was mixed, not least because it was announced to members without them being consulted on it. Also a million quid is a drop in the ocean in terms of the kinds of resource gaps seen between the most deprived kids and everyone else. Also it's a partnership with the Mirror. There was a bloke from the Mirror talking and somehow in amongst the stuff about hungry kids he managed to fit in a moan about how people associated 'tabloid' press with 'right wing' and how the mirror was great and always supported left wing stuff apart from Jeremy Corbyn and please nobody mention that the company that owns it also prints the Daily Express.

I'm torn on the whole thing. Seems like the intentions are good but ultimately it's a problem only structural change can fix. I suspect the motivation behind it might be to give the NEU something to point at in their defence the next time the press comes gunning for them, as if the press ever give unions a right of reply or give a shit about the facts of what unions actually do. Still, some kid somewhere might get something out of it, and I'm definitely not against the principle of using union funds for solidarity work.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 26, 2021)

We’re doing lateral flow tests at our place now, twice weekly (Sunday and Tuesday evenings). Got given the kits last Friday, a box of seven. It’s a bit of a pain in the arse doing it as with all the prep and form filling it takes about half an hour out of your evening, but at the same time does give a bit of reassurance.

I’m doing a fairly good job of avoiding the kids at school, my daytime hours have been cut back/moved around a bit so I can do home schooling for the eldest who is in reception. Still in all day on a Friday but spent it last week painting part of the perimeter fence all day, and have plenty more jobs like that to keep me out of the way, weather permitting


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 27, 2021)

8th March is now the date to reopen schools...


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 27, 2021)

Jesus fucking christ.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 8th March is now the date to reopen schools...


Oh ffs


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 27, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Oh ffs




And that's the 'aspiration'. We're trying to prepare BB2 for home schooling until Easter, she's fucking desperate to play with a child of her own age.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 8th March is now the date to reopen schools...



I think _potential target date _might be a better concept...


----------



## Cloo (Jan 27, 2021)

Yeah,  it's earliest possible,  though I think stupid to even bother naming it, we have not even got a clear pathway to improvement yet.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 27, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Yeah,  it's earliest possible,  though I think stupid to even bother naming it, we have not even got a clear pathway to improvement yet.


It's a concession to the swivel-eyes, isn't it? There's no benefit to announcing it so far ahead, and it carries a risk that they will end up sticking to it even if it turns out not to be such a good idea.

Still, at least the concessions are getting less dramatic over time.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 27, 2021)

Apparently he's said they're going to publish a 'conditionsline' - when A, B, and C are in place, X, and Y can happen. 

The current vaccinations schedule indicates that all four of the highest priority groups will have had the jabs in they arms for three weeks by the 8th March. 

I'll take the 8th March if it happens, but I think anyone investing any emotional capital in that date is a fool - I'm still banking on school reopening after the Easter holidays in mid April.

(Also worth noting the word 'starting' - I absolutely would *NOT *bet on that meaning all kids. Don't be surprised if it's blended learning, rota's, limited hours, specific year groups etc..).


----------



## Thora (Jan 27, 2021)

I’m really hoping my Year 6 child gets to go back to school at least for a little while before he has to start a secondary he has never ever been inside.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 27, 2021)

I think it's going to be rotas rest of this school year,  maybe not for exam years and Reception, /Y1.  My kids will be bottom of list for return,  but I get why.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's a concession to the swivel-eyes, isn't it? There's no benefit to announcing it so far ahead, and it carries a risk that they will end up sticking to it even if it turns out not to be such a good idea.
> 
> Still, at least the concessions are getting less dramatic over time.



I'm not clear on why there always needs to be so many concessions to the swivel-eyes. They're a pretty small minority of the population.

Oh wait, it's because they own all the newspapers isn't it? Silly me


----------



## miss direct (Jan 27, 2021)

I feel extremely unsafe in school, and there's only a few people in. If they really do open in early March and students still don't wear masks, I may just quit my job.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 27, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I think it's going to be rotas rest of this school year,  maybe not for exam years and Reception, /Y1.  My kids will be bottom of list for return,  but I get why.


No way, the government will never allow blended learning for the whole year.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 27, 2021)

Any kind of 50/50 online/f2f teaching setup is unworkable IMO. Whether it's years 7 and 11 in and everyone else at home or classes split in two and taking it in turns to attend.

The kids we've got attending school are just doing the same work that the kids at home have been set, because there simply aren't the staff available to teach them their normal timetable and provide 5 hours a day of teaching for the kids who are at home. I'm currently spending 3-4 hours on planning, creating materials, marking and feedback for every one hour's worth of 'teaching'. If there's a lab demonstration involved, you can maybe double that and add the lab tech's time in to boot. Everything that's pre-prepared in the scheme of work refers to a textbook the kids don't have so that's all out the window. The only way I could do all this and teach 'normal' classes in school as well would be if there was two of me.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 27, 2021)

Thora said:


> I’m really hoping my Year 6 child gets to go back to school at least for a little while before he has to start a secondary he has never ever been inside.


This was us last year - Daniel left primary school in March and went 'back' to high school in August. He had a 3 day virtual transition day thing online which did help a bit but the thing that happened which was slightly unexpected was that because he hadn't seen all his friends for months they had sort of grown apart and moved on from him  so he went from having left school being popular with everyone and having a very easy time socially to suddenly being alone with a whole bunch of new people from other primary schools and the kids he was looking to for some security and confidence weren't really interested 
He has made good progress with making new friends since but it really did knock his confidence. If T has some good friends locally you might want to cultivate them a bit once restrictions begin to be lifted a bit. I sort of wish I had made more effort.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 27, 2021)

It says something about our gov's ability to communicate (and the general issue of social media whispers) that I've seen this announcement interpreted on social media and headlines as: 'Schools could stay shut until 8 March', 'Schools will stay shut until 8 March/will open on 8 March', 'The earliest schools could open is 8 March' and so on.

I think the one they're looking for is 'We don't know when schools will open because we are still right in the middle of a massive shitstorm'


----------



## Mattym (Jan 27, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I feel extremely unsafe in school, and there's only a few people in. If they really do open in early March and students still don't wear masks, I may just quit my job.



I'm hoping there'll be some sort of union intervention about it. There needs to be certain demands/ health & safety requirements met, as in the past (to a degree). I'm not certain that there will be but eg. I'm not certain that I'm prepared to go back in without a vaccination, what good it will do exactly, is possibly still not clear, but just to feel a bit safer in that working environment would be nice.


----------



## Thora (Jan 27, 2021)

weepiper said:


> This was us last year - Daniel left primary school in March and went 'back' to high school in August. He had a 3 day virtual transition day thing online which did help a bit but the thing that happened which was slightly unexpected was that because he hadn't seen all his friends for months they had sort of grown apart and moved on from him  so he went from having left school being popular with everyone and having a very easy time socially to suddenly being alone with a whole bunch of new people from other primary schools and the kids he was looking to for some security and confidence weren't really interested
> He has made good progress with making new friends since but it really did knock his confidence. If T has some good friends locally you might want to cultivate them a bit once restrictions begin to be lifted a bit. I sort of wish I had made more effort.


Literally told him tonight to message a friend and go for a walk together at the weekend (that is allowed at the moment).


----------



## Rebelda (Jan 28, 2021)

If they want schools to go back they need to vaccinate the school staff as a priority. I hope the unions are pushing for it.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

Rebelda said:


> If they want schools to go back they need to vaccinate the school staff as a priority. I hope the unions are pushing for it.


I can understand why school staff wouldn't want to go back to work until they've been vaccinated, but I'm not sure that vaccinating them as a priority is the answer (I notice that Kier Starmer called for this yesterday).

Firstly it would involve diverting vaccine away from those who are currently due to receive it soon, and secondly it will still allow transmission from one child to another and therefore to new households.

There really isn't any short cut which will enable schools to reopen sooner other than getting general rates of infection down much, much lower.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

Yeah, this.

Teachers _are _at a higher risk, but not it appears at the stratospherically higher risk that was initially supposed - the big spread within schools is child-to-child, and anyone who thinks we should vaccinate kids before we vaccinate 60yo's is smoking Crack.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 28, 2021)

Vaccinating people based on jobs that aren't immediately critical to keeping the country going (like utilities or healthcare) ends with people on benefits getting it last.


----------



## Winot (Jan 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I can understand why school staff wouldn't want to go back to work until they've been vaccinated, but I'm not sure that vaccinating them as a priority is the answer (I notice that Kier Starmer called for this yesterday).
> 
> Firstly it would involve diverting vaccine away from those who are currently due to receive it soon, and secondly it will still allow transmission from one child to another and therefore to new households.
> 
> There really isn't any short cut which will enable schools to reopen sooner other than getting general rates of infection down much, much lower.



Angela Rayner was on the Today program this morning making a complete hash of this. I’m not sure what the right thing to do is (I can see arguments either way) but when the reasonable points that you make were put to her, she just waffled.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 28, 2021)

Of course if the LP really wanted to protect staff and students they could hold firm on not re-opening schools, colleges and universities until the risks really have been minimised. Crazy I know.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 28, 2021)

And the best way of getting into a position where schools could be opened again would be to support people for self-isolating, support workers rather than businesses, make sure that other areas are shut to drive dow foot-traffic, etc


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

And as I pointed out on another thread the other day, there are people working in lower paid and more insecure jobs than teaching who have significantly higher death rates from Covid than those working in schools (though part of that is that they're still working more or less as normal whereas teachers aren't. I'm sure death rates would be higher among teachers if schools had been open as normal all the way through).

No one seems to be calling for them to be vaccinated as a priority.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Jan 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> And as I pointed out on another thread the other day, there are people working in lower paid and more insecure jobs than teaching who have significantly higher death rates from Covid than those working in schools (though part of that is that they're still working more or less as normal whereas teachers aren't. I'm sure death rates would be higher among teachers if schools had been open as normal all the way through).
> 
> No one seems to be calling for them to be vaccinated as a priority.



Some gov. stats for UK deaths from Covid-19 by profession





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) related deaths by occupation, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
					

Provisional analysis of deaths involving the coronavirus (COVID-19), by different occupational groups, among males and females aged 20 to 64 years in England and Wales.



					www.ons.gov.uk
				





> We also compared the teaching occupations with all other professional occupations, allowing us to see how the deaths compare with professions with similar broad economic and educational backgrounds. We found that rates of death involving COVID-19 in all teaching and educational professionals were not statistically significantly different to the rates seen in professional occupations (17.6 deaths per 100,000 males; 12.8 deaths per 100,000 females) as a whole, true for both sexes. Of the specific teaching and education professions, the rate of death involving COVID-19 in male secondary education teaching professionals was statistically significantly higher than the rate of death involving COVID-19 in professional occupations in men of the same age (in men at least - second lowest for women).


Am I reading this correctly? - Although male secondary school teachers have a death rate "statistically significantly higher than the rate of death involving COVID-19 in professional occupations in men of the same age" the "professional occupations" group has the lowest risk of any work force group (in men at least - second lowest for women).
I guess the numbers are skewed due the fact most teachers have been working from home in the last year. I also note they have they separated school staff into qualified teachers & admin, no accounting for those at high risk mingling with the pupils eg cleaners, technicians, catering.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

Indeliblelink said:


> Some gov. stats for UK deaths from Covid-19 by profession
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got my info from a BBC report of the ONS figures, but from memory that's broadly correct.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 28, 2021)

I'm sure deaths among football fans who go to matches is probably pretty low too. 

Deaths among school staff are low because schools have largely been shut. And some schools have been very good at protecting their vulnerable staff.

If you want me to go and deal with the mental health of society's most vulnerable kids then vaccinate me. Which, yesterday, the Welsh government did, without, I was told, taking that vaccine away from those who were to receive it soon. This is one of the few things the Welsh government have got right. The pool of people who need vaccinating in this way is small and it will have long term benefits of removing vulnerable children from the street.


----------



## chilango (Jan 28, 2021)

I think we have to be crystal clear on this.

Teachers and other school workers need the vaccination. Just as other key workers do.

Vaccinating teachers will not make schools safe to open (further).


----------



## elbows (Jan 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> And as I pointed out on another thread the other day, there are people working in lower paid and more insecure jobs than teaching who have significantly higher death rates from Covid than those working in schools (though part of that is that they're still working more or less as normal whereas teachers aren't. I'm sure death rates would be higher among teachers if schools had been open as normal all the way through).
> 
> No one seems to be calling for them to be vaccinated as a priority.



I've seen some calls but I havent had time to collect links to articles. I know that meat processing industry bodies have ben calling for their workers to be high on the vaccination list, for example.

Im sure that what those industries and governments are hoping for is data that shows quite an effect of vaccination on transmission, and that they will eventually be able to fudge the self-isolation rules for vaccinated workers as a result. Because from a business and management point of view, as opposed to actually caring about the health of workers, low staffing levels as a result of self-isolation and outbreak management are some of their big pandemic challenges, and that obviously applies very much to teachers as well. But that is not part of the vaccination picture right now, due to a lack of data on transmission after vaccination.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 28, 2021)

kebabking said:


> the big spread within schools is child-to-child,



Is this just because there are more kids? Because anecdotally as a teacher and a mum with two children in two different schools, I have witnessed nearly all the teachers and support staff come down with it.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 28, 2021)

Part of the exceptionalist argument for vaccinating teachers is because having schools closed really fucks a lot of workers right across the economy.  Not that this should be the priority, but if say, a quarter of the adults who work in a school are not able to work because of the need to isolate/illness, it means hundreds of adults in the area have to stay home and do childcare.  That’s not the same for all essential workplaces.  Adults have to be in schools for schools to open at all.  

Now that logic ignores the human cost of transmitting the virus between children, and to the families of the kids and the staff.  But if your motivation is purely economic, and you want teachers to be at work so the schools can open regardless of how sick the kids get, then teacher vaccination makes sense.  And of course, there are actual benefits to kids being at school that sound better than “free childcare for the worker drones”.  

Personally, I don’t want us to go back til cases are back to early autumn levels.  But if I do have to go back before that, then yes, I want a vaccine.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 28, 2021)

I think there's _possibly _a case for vaccinating by occupational risk once the most at risk age groups have been done. I'm not sure whether that should be once the 70s and over have been done or after the 50s and over have had the jab. However I think the principle should be to protect workers who are forced to work rather than to allow groups _back _into the workplace.  Most of all though, nobody should be coerced into unsafe work and there needs to be fully funded self isolation and sick pay.  That trumps every discussion about who gets the jab and goes to the heart of combatting neoliberal pandemic management strategies.

Sorry, that's not really a contribution on whether teachers get it, just a stream of consciousness from me.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 28, 2021)

It's harder working from home but doable. But I may well be forced back to work despite this. I'd like a jab please


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)

SisterBadgers is isolated for the 4/5? time and her staff are trying to cover the open and online education as best they can. Currently 60% of the key workers and such kids 'bubbles' are also isolated. 

Should be fine for the 8th of March though.


----------



## Mation (Jan 29, 2021)

cybershot said:


>



Thank you. Proper belly laugh


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 4, 2021)

For all the parents here, please tell your kids that if they're going to cut and paste random chunks of vaguely relevant information from wikipedia into their answer sheets when doing online learning they should use the 'paste text only' option. This puts it in the same font as the answer sheet and removes stuff like hyperlinks that can be a bit of a giveaway that the work is not original.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 4, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> For all the parents here, please tell your kids that if they're going to cut and paste random chunks of vaguely relevant information from wikipedia into their answer sheets when doing online learning they should use the 'paste text only' option. This puts it in the same font as the answer sheet and removes stuff like hyperlinks that can be a bit of a giveaway that the work is not original.



That's terrible. Imagine if degree students did that?

My partner supervises them. The best she's had so far is a cut and paste from a business student who did a whole page from a business which included "We are open from 9am-5pm, Mon-Fri, try the back entrance if not open at the front"

Seriously.


----------



## Fruitloop (Feb 4, 2021)

Sound advice.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 4, 2021)

Degree students would be kicked out for plaigarism. I'm not sure the same fastidious methods are being applied to Yr 7 sessions on the basics of coastal erosion


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 4, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Degree students would be kicked out for plaigarism.



You'd think so wouldn't you?

You'd be wrong.

I could go on, lots, but wrong thread really. Suffice to say, what is happening is a whole economy has been created by taking people off the dole and putting them onto degree courses they pay for, will never probably pay back, and aren't capable of anyway.

I have nothing against educating people and creating an economy in this way. But please don't pretend this is any sort of degree level. It belittles other degrees by doing so and gives students false ideas and expectations of their own abilities. This is quite a big racket now in higher education.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 4, 2021)

Eh? I was just saying degrees (or those in my experience) have plaigarism checker software unlike secondary school work being done from home at the moment


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 4, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Eh? I was just saying degrees (or those in my experience) have plaigarism checker software unlike secondary school work being done from home at the moment



SI why do you think I'm always having a go at you these days? When I never am?

I'm just explaining a situation. And sure, degrees have TurnItIn. Which is actually pretty useless software a lot of the time. Most of my partner's students have...my partner. References for them. Checks their work. Tells them what to write. Does their research for them. 

It's not a degree as I knew it. Is the only point I am making.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 4, 2021)

I wasn't thinking you were having a go at me mate    I was just trying to be unmisunderstood. Think the lack of nuance in text has contributed. Sorry if I came across as defensive etc.

Now leave me the fuck alone the lot of you!


----------



## existentialist (Feb 4, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> That's terrible. Imagine if degree students did that?
> 
> My partner supervises them. The best she's had so far is a cut and paste from a business student who did a whole page from a business which included "We are open from 9am-5pm, Mon-Fri, try the back entrance if not open at the front"
> 
> Seriously.


I had a student 50% of whose assignment was a slab of C&P'd text from somewhere on the Internet. If I'm at all doubtful (you usually see the "voice" change as you read into the plagiarised material), I will scrape various bits of text and paste them into Google.

This particular student decided denial was the best option, and insisted that it must be coincidence that about 700 words of "theirs" just happened to be identical to a big chunk of text on the 'net. Eventually, they grudgingly agreed to rewrite that bit of the assignment - well, it was that or fail the course, and I laid the whole Plagiarism Is Bad thing on with a trowel .


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 4, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Degree students would be kicked out for plaigarism. I'm not sure the same fastidious methods are being applied to Yr 7 sessions on the basics of coastal erosion


Ha coastal erosion appears to be a major topic in schools atm, my year 5 son has been doing it for about a month now it feels like. in both english AND geography.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 4, 2021)

The chap who runs the choir I'm in, and who is also a primary school music teacher, has been doing a few music appreciation videos for homeschooling. I post a sample, in case it's useful (and you'll get to learn a tiny bit of Welsh in the intro ).


----------



## muscovyduck (Feb 4, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Ha coastal erosion appears to be a major topic in schools atm, my year 5 son has been doing it for about a month now it feels like. in both english AND geography.


Is the Sue Earl documentary still floating about?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 4, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Ha coastal erosion appears to be a major topic in schools atm, my year 5 son has been doing it for about a month now it feels like. in both english AND geography.



We did a coastal erosion field trip when I was at school. It was great.


----------



## Cloo (Feb 4, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> For all the parents here, please tell your kids that if they're going to cut and paste random chunks of vaguely relevant information from wikipedia into their answer sheets when doing online learning they should use the 'paste text only' option. This puts it in the same font as the answer sheet and removes stuff like hyperlinks that can be a bit of a giveaway that the work is not original.


Son has tried this for an as yet unhanded in piece,  I will tell him I have spotted his cunning plan. Wasn't links or anything,  it's just he'd never write that much text on his own.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 4, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> We did a coastal erosion field trip when I was at school. It was great.


How much did you manage to erode?


----------



## zahir (Feb 4, 2021)

Pastoral care...


----------



## zahir (Feb 4, 2021)

e2a: thread by Deepti Gurdasani on transmission of covid in schools posted here:
General Coronavirus (COVID-19) chat


----------



## miss direct (Feb 8, 2021)

A question to teachers and/or parents. 

If students don't turn up to their online lessons, do you get a call from the school? 
Almost none of my students turn up (one to one literacy sessions that they should come to instead of going to their main lesson) and someone at the school wants me to ring the kids and/or the parents every day. I really don't want to...


----------



## kebabking (Feb 8, 2021)

miss direct said:


> A question to teachers and/or parents.
> 
> If students don't turn up to their online lessons, do you get a call from the school?
> Almost none of my students turn up (one to one literacy sessions that they should come to instead of going to their main lesson) and someone at the school wants me to ring the kids and/or the parents every day. I really don't want to...



Ours - primary school - no. The school ring up/email every other week just to do a welfare check, see if parents need any additional support etc.. and I (I assume) are bit more dogged if there's been no engagement with school work (reasonable proof the child is still alive...), but there's no chasing up _specifically _for non-partcipation in this or that online lesson.

My sense is that online lessons are declining - they are hard work for all involved, and there are issues around bandwidth, devises etc.. when parents are attempting to WFH. It's work set on education city, class Dojo etc.. to be accessed on an as/when basis.


----------



## Thora (Feb 8, 2021)

We get a message through the online platform rather than a phonecall, but if that doesn't work then yes phonecalls.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Degree students would be kicked out for plaigarism. I'm not sure the same fastidious methods are being applied to Yr 7 sessions on the basics of coastal erosion


I'm afraid not. The usual penalty at my place is now to resubmit the work for a maximum of 40%, even if it is a piece of gross cheating. Nominally, the penalties ratchet up for 2nd and 3rd offences, but the reality is it's just about impossible to get kicked out.  At year 1 we are now encouraged to just 'have a word' and treat it as a scholarship issue. This is happening even more under the pressures of Covid.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Ours - primary school - no. The school ring up/email every other week just to do a welfare check, see if parents need any additional support etc.. and I (I assume) are bit more dogged if there's been no engagement with school work (reasonable proof the child is still alive...), but there's no chasing up _specifically _for non-partcipation in this or that online lesson.
> 
> My sense is that online lessons are declining - they are hard work for all involved, and there are issues around bandwidth, devises etc.. when parents are attempting to WFH. It's work set on education city, class Dojo etc.. to be accessed on an as/when basis.



Thanks. Good to know. Last week I just emailed each form tutor with info on how the kids were getting on/who was and wasn't showing up, since they do welfare calls. I don't think it's productive to keep calling (and yeah, I really don't want to!)


----------



## Wilf (Feb 8, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> SI why do you think I'm always having a go at you these days? When I never am?
> 
> I'm just explaining a situation. And sure, degrees have TurnItIn. Which is actually pretty useless software a lot of the time. Most of my partner's students have...my partner. References for them. Checks their work. Tells them what to write. Does their research for them.
> 
> It's not a degree as I knew it. Is the only point I am making.


Turnitin works as a kind of blunt instrument. Trouble is, to go through a plagiarism hearing, at my place at least, you still have to find the sources it suggests have been ripped off and then laboriously match them up to the student's work. It's a faff and you won't always have access, by definition, to all of it (the stuff where they've signed up to a site that is then paywalled).  Anyway, I digress...


----------



## miss direct (Feb 8, 2021)

Hopefully my sessions are helpful and fun for the kids who do turn up. I've been working hard to make them engaging and interactive - they're face to face, camera on, mic on, 1-to-1 30 minute sessions.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 8, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Hopefully my sessions are helpful and fun for the kids who do turn up. I've been working hard to make them engaging and interactive - they're face to face, camera on, mic on, 1-to-1 30 minute sessions.


How old are they?

I think in a similar situation we would be expected to chase that up. First port of call would be checking in with form tutor/normal subject teacher to see if all is well at home and whether they just stayed in their whole class lesson.

Our LSAs are calling families for one reason or another several times a day.  Class teachers it’s kind of understood that we might not have the time (I teach over 300 kids so it’s not feasible - I am expected to chase it up after 3 absences though, and phone calls are the expectation). In reality I made a number of phone calls on Friday, butonly for year 11s.


----------



## Cloo (Feb 8, 2021)

I got a phonecall when Ez missed a lesson (accidentally, she didn't spot it on schedule for some reason) - they more or less assumed it must be an accident, as she's normally in them.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 8, 2021)

We have had a call from BB2’s class teacher (year 3), just to see how she’s coping. She does go to all online classes, three per day from the conservatory which has been her classroom for nearly a year now. BB1 is upstairs doing all college stuff online, whilst Frau Bahn and I do our things (stare at internet, mostly). Luckily our broadband seems to be quite robust and due to our work situation we have loads of laptops, PCs and tablets floating around. How people manage with two or three kids of similar ages whilst WFH? Must be nearly impossible.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 8, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> How old are they?
> 
> I think in a similar situation we would be expected to chase that up. First port of call would be checking in with form tutor/normal subject teacher to see if all is well at home and whether they just stayed in their whole class lesson.
> 
> Our LSAs are calling families for one reason or another several times a day.  Class teachers it’s kind of understood that we might not have the time (I teach over 300 kids so it’s not feasible - I am expected to chase it up after 3 absences though, and phone calls are the expectation). In reality I made a number of phone calls on Friday, butonly for year 11s.


They're year 7 and 8. I haven't really got any proper guidance or had an induction yet. Nobody really seems to know who's responsible for me. Its year 7 parents evening this week (well, phone calls) so I've made sure each form tutor knows what's going on.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 14, 2021)

So March 8th is the plan then? 

Feels too soon. The vaccination programme is rolling out quickly but the number of cases and deaths is still too high.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 14, 2021)

I'm unwilling to go back until I've been jabbed.


----------



## baldrick (Feb 14, 2021)

Badgers said:


> So March 8th is the plan then?
> 
> Feels too soon. The vaccination programme is rolling out quickly but the number of cases and deaths is still too high.


It's how I feel as well and I work in a school. Seems like a risky plan to me. I guess they are hoping Easter hols will act as a circuit breaker so things don't ramp up too quickly.


----------



## nogojones (Feb 14, 2021)

In Wales they want to start sending them back after half term next week. Like Gethin and Drakeford haven't killed enough yet


----------



## Badgers (Feb 14, 2021)

My sister has been teaching from home three days a week and two at the school with key worker kids and some with learning or behaviour issues. 

Over the pandemic she has been forced to isolate four (possibly five) times and loads more 'class/year bubbles' have been in/out of isolation ongoing. 

I can't see it being any different come March 8th. Doubt many of the teachers and staff will be getting a first jab, let alone both doses.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 14, 2021)

Badgers said:


> My sister has been teaching from home three days a week and two at the school with key worker kids and some with learning or behaviour issues.
> 
> Over the pandemic she has been forced to isolate four (possibly five) times and loads more 'class/year bubbles' have been in/out of isolation ongoing.
> 
> I can't see it being any different come March 8th. Doubt many of the teachers and staff will be getting a first jab, let alone both doses.


Yeah, who would have thought to vaccinate school staff as a priority before opening schools 😂


----------



## Cloo (Feb 14, 2021)

I can possibly get the sense of opening primary schools on 8th (although gradually might be better), but think secondaries could and should wait longer, but that's easy for me to say as my secondary-age child has a laptop, a room to herself and a school teaching a full day of lessons online, and I know that is far from being the case everywhere. For a start, doing primaries a few weeks ahead might give a better idea of what sort of impact that has alone, which could inform any later approaches.


----------



## Mattym (Feb 15, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm unwilling to go back until I've been jabbed.



That's exactly how I feel & I just feel that raising the issue at work will lead to problems.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 15, 2021)

I'm really unimpressed at the plans to open so soon. My school says masks are now mandatory but there are so many pleading exemption or who wear them wrongly. I won't be teaching full classes and can maybe set my space up so I can distance but I feel anxious at the idea. Why have I been careful for a whole year just to go into a building with 1000+ people?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 15, 2021)

Also isn't it nearly Easter holidays? Does that mean the kids and staff will have two or three weeks spreading C19 then all off for a few weeks in their bubbles?


----------



## muscovyduck (Feb 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Also isn't it nearly Easter holidays? Does that mean the kids and staff will have two or three weeks spreading C19 then all off for a few weeks in their bubbles?


Jan 4th all over again


----------



## zahir (Feb 15, 2021)

> *Schools - including special schools - are not a major source of transmission of coronavirus, the Public Health Agency (PHA) has said.*
> 
> The comments were made in a PHA presentation to education officials and some school principals last week, seen by BBC News NI.
> It said that school transmission "does occur but tends to be small scale".
> ...


----------



## LDC (Feb 15, 2021)

If they were at all strategic and politically smart about it the government could announce schools opening alongside vaccination for all teachers and school staff in the weeks prior to that.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If they were at all strategic and politically smart about it the government could announce schools opening alongside vaccination for all teachers and school staff in the weeks prior to that.



I'm not sure it would be politically smart for the government to overrule the JCVI and put teachers ahead of other groups, as they'd then face political pressure from every other group, having demonstrated it was now a political rather than public health decision.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 15, 2021)

This is just madness, _again_.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Feb 15, 2021)

Teacher friends of mine (in a North London state school) were all offered the jab and had it at the weekend. My friend, who is maternity cover in 6th form, thought his invite was a scam, but when he checked it out and found his colleagues had been invited and had it, he went on Saturday morning and had it


----------



## kebabking (Feb 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If they were at all strategic and politically smart about it the government could announce schools opening alongside vaccination for all teachers and school staff in the weeks prior to that.



Nah, useful for the schools issue, but dreadful politics in big picture terms - if they stick with JCVI they have an absolute firewall. No blame can be attached to them if they stick ridgedly to what JCVI want, but as soon as they deviate it's completely open season on everything.

Given the Hellscape of blame that's going to come the government's way come the the public equity, I can see why they are taking the ultra-cautious approach - if I was sat in Hancock's shoes, I'd probably take the same view.

To be fair to them, if they were to diverge from JCVI advice and choose to vaccinate X00,000 teachers and school staff at the request of the unions, and then it all somehow goes wrong with an outbreak in the 60+ age group who got delayed to make space for school staff, do we think that the teaching unions would be wading in to defend the government's judgement call? No, I think it would all go a bit silent, with some tweets getting deleted...

Politicians aren't going to go out on a limb for those who won't return the favour.


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If they were at all strategic and politically smart about it the government could announce schools opening alongside vaccination for all teachers and school staff in the weeks prior to that.


Just on a practical level, does anyone know how many teachers and other frontline school staff we're talking about here?


----------



## LDC (Feb 15, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I'm not sure it would be politically smart for the government to overrule the JCVI and put teachers ahead of other groups, as they'd then face political pressure from every other group, having demonstrated it was now a political rather than public health decision.



Yeah, maybe you and kebabking are right, I do think some key worker vaccination plan would have widespread support though, and that could start with teachers and school staff. But I agree, given the complete fuck-ups so far sticking to what you're told is the safest bet and best way to avoid more horrendous mistakes that they have to take the blame for. At least this way they can point at the JCVI and blame them.


----------



## LDC (Feb 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> Just on a practical level, does anyone know how many teachers and other frontline school staff we're talking about here?



A very lazy Google says about 1.3 million school staff in the UK, so not an insignificant number.


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> A very lazy Google says about 1.3 million school staff in the UK, so an not insignificant number.


From memory, they're doing about twice that number of vaccinations in a week ATM, so it's not an impossible task to do without causing a huge backlog. 

But as others have mentioned, if teachers are done now there's likely to be demands for other groups to move up the list, and that would start to cause significant delays to others.


----------



## elbows (Feb 15, 2021)

I suppose I expect teachers to be on the list once they've completed the aged 50+ vaccinations.

Articles like this one which focus on asthma vaccination also hint at such possibilities:









						Covid-19: Millions of asthmatics 'must wait for vaccine'
					

A much narrower group will now be eligible than previously indicated.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> There are nine priority groups in total, which the government says it will offer a first jab to by the end of April - including all over-50s regardless of health status.
> 
> The next set of priority groups has yet to be laid out.
> 
> But it is expected to include people with both a wider range of health conditions and in a broader group of occupations, like police officers and teachers.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 15, 2021)

As much as we are desperate for BB2 to get back to school, it does seem like madness to not wait until after Easter now, those three extra weeks could well make all the difference.


----------



## Thora (Feb 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As much as we are desperate for BB2 to get back to school, it does seem like madness to not wait until after Easter now, those three extra weeks could well make all the difference.


I totally agree.  Or maybe a very phased/part time restart so all children go in for a couple of days in a small, socially distanced group as a catch up.  All in on the 8th March seems mad.


----------



## elbows (Feb 15, 2021)

If rates of infection continue to fall at a steep trajectory then I might not have too many complaints when the time comes, especially if they stagger things. But rates might not continue to decline so quickly, the trajectory already seems less steep than it was, so I will watch the next few weeks figures closely.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 15, 2021)

The gossip I've seen is _not _all going back on the 8th - it _looks _like reception, maybe year 1, year 6, year 7, year 11 and 12/3. Big push on SEN kids.

The 'everybody back' date is after the Easter holidays - 19th of April.

There's still back and forth on it - lots will depend on modelling and how other stuff is going, and whatever is announced next weekend is liable to change.

The political gossip is that Johnson is even more cautious than Hancock on coming out of lockdown. Williamson is pushing for schools reopening asap, but he has zero political weight and will be out as soon as there's a post-covid reshuffle. Sunak is trying to be the sensible 'opener', but he's not getting much traction on it - eat out to help out still looks like a bad taste meme to Johnson - and has the brains to not push it.


----------



## elbows (Feb 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> The political gossip is that Johnson is even more cautious than Hancock on coming out of lockdown. Williamson is pushing for schools reopening asap, but he has zero political weight and will be out as soon as there's a post-covid reshuffle. Sunak is trying to be the sensible 'opener', but he's not getting much traction on it - eat out to help out still looks like a bad taste meme to Johnson - and has the brains to not push it.



Sounds plausible. If they manage the vaccine-based exit strategy effectively then politically Johnson might even be in a position to run away with another general election victory. But if they fuck it up then they are probably political toast. And I expect Johnson remembers what happened last time he gave too much weight to the 'reopen quickly' fuckwits.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 15, 2021)

When Johnson gave that briefing to announce 100,000 deaths he looked like the stuffing had been knocked out of him, he knows a lot of this is down to him and the fuckwits he's surrounded himself with, so it wouldn't be a shock if he's now extremely cautious about opening back up too quickly this time.


----------



## elbows (Feb 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When Johnson gave that briefing to announce 100,000 deaths he looked like the stuffing had been knocked out of him, he knows a lot of this is down to him and the fuckwits he's surrounded himself with, so it wouldn't be a shock if he's now extremely cautious about opening back up too quickly this time.



Yeah. I have to keep other possibilities in mind too though, because we were told something similar about Johnsons attitude after the first wave, after he got sick himself, and yet he still went for the reckless approach again later.

At a bare minimum he does not want to be seen to reopen stuff too quickly. and he doesnt want to fail again. I do expect the boosterish side of him to want to mount a comeback, but that will be so much more fun for him if he waits till a time when there is a more reasonable prospect of getting away with such things.

I wonder if Vallance has got the hump with them, we dont see him as often at press conferences these days. And even someone like Whitty who will often defend the governments approach, was known to come out with occasional comments like 'madness is repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome'.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 15, 2021)

Years R, 1, 6, 7, 11, 12 and 13 is loads.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 15, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Years R, 1, 6, 7, 11, 12 and 13 is loads.



Education is on around 30/35% as it is, the above would take it to about 55%.


----------



## elbows (Feb 15, 2021)

I confess that I laughed when I saw that they had resorted to using the phrase 'lots of' for this headline.










						Covid: 'No evidence' schools spread lots of coronavirus
					

Researchers looked at teacher and pupil Covid "sick days" in England in the autumn term up to Christmas.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Thora (Feb 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Education is on around 30/35% as it is, the above would take it to about 55%.


It would be about 80% at our infant school, might as well have the few Year 2s that aren't kw/vulnerable back in too!


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> The gossip I've seen is _not _all going back on the 8th - it _looks _like reception, maybe year 1, year 6, year 7, year 11 and 12/3. Big push on SEN kids.
> 
> The 'everybody back' date is after the Easter holidays - 19th of April.
> 
> ...



Where do you get this stuff from? Is it from your work?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 15, 2021)

Thora said:


> It would be about 80% at our infant school, might as well have the few Year 2s that aren't kw/vulnerable back in too!



Our primary school is at 15%, Mrs K's is at 30%. It's variation city....


----------



## kebabking (Feb 15, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> Where do you get this stuff from? Is it from your work?



Some of it. Some is knowing who speaks for who on twitter, and most is distilling the two.

E2A: applying logic and what's happened before helps - with this stuff a big slice is understanding that this stuff simply hasn't been decided yet - there may well be tweaking of the plan, like this or that year group, upto 30 minutes before it gets announced. That's not because it's chaos (though sometimes it is), but because these arguments are so finely balanced. Everything has a downside, and no one likes downsides.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Nah, useful for the schools issue, but dreadful politics in big picture terms - if they stick with JCVI they have an absolute firewall. No blame can be attached to them if they stick ridgedly to what JCVI want, but as soon as they deviate it's completely open season on everything.
> 
> Given the Hellscape of blame that's going to come the government's way come the the public equity, I can see why they are taking the ultra-cautious approach - if I was sat in Hancock's shoes, I'd probably take the same view.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you've said, but these are the situations where the sinecure of a career in politics meets hard reality. These twats maunder on about "making tough decisions", but they're usually talking about some fag-paper-thin choice between two policy options, both of which they know will piss people off. But this is a proper tough decision, and it's the point at which politics meets conviction. And that's where it all goes wrong, because the only convictions this shower will ever have, if there is a shred of justice in the world, would be for criminal negligence.

This is the point (one of more than several) where a decent leader would say (not necessarily entirely out loud) "I've got some decisions to make, which are going be extremely unpopular, and for which I may be held to account in the future. But I think they're the right decisions, and I'll take my lumps if it doesn't work out". Not this populist people-pleasing crap which is designed solely to keep the tabloids off their backs for the next 3 days.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 15, 2021)

elbows said:


> I confess that I laughed when I saw that they had resorted to using the phrase 'lots of' for this headline.
> 
> View attachment 254566
> 
> ...



It's a scientific term bro, you wouldn't understand.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 15, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I agree with everything you've said, but these are the situations where the sinecure of a career in politics meets hard reality. These twats maunder on about "making tough decisions", but they're usually talking about some fag-paper-thin choice between two policy options, both of which they know will piss people off. But this is a proper tough decision, and it's the point at which politics meets conviction. And that's where it all goes wrong, because the only convictions this shower will ever have, if there is a shred of justice in the world, would be for criminal negligence.
> 
> This is the point (one of more than several) where a decent leader would say (not necessarily entirely out loud) "I've got some decisions to make, which are going be extremely unpopular, and for which I may be held to account in the future. But I think they're the right decisions, and I'll take my lumps if it doesn't work out". Not this populist people-pleasing crap which is designed solely to keep the tabloids off their backs for the next 3 days.



I think you're right, but I also think it's a easier politically to simply say that you're following JCVI - not least because when Sir Keith suggested going outside JCVI guidance and stabbing the teachers it got very little traction.

Lots of folk thought 'oh yeah, good idea..', but as soon as it was asked whether you want Granny to wait an extra week for the jab the response was 'what kind of fuckwit thought that up?'.

Unfortunately, I don't think open, honest conversations about hard choices are actually possible in our political environment.


----------



## souljacker (Feb 15, 2021)

I was working at a secondary school in North London today and the chap I was working with told me the union won't support a return this side of easter.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 16, 2021)

Israel sees alarming leap in child coronavirus cases
					

In November 2020, some 400 toddlers had been diagnosed with COVID-19, by February that number had jumped to more than 5,800; health experts attribute massive increase to recently discovered mutations of pathogen




					www.ynetnews.com


----------



## Badgers (Feb 16, 2021)

Covid-19: More young children are being infected in Israel and Italy, emerging data suggest
					

Experts have warned that schools must be reopened with caution, amid emerging evidence from Israel and Italy that more young children are being infected with new variants of covid-19.  Paediatricians in Israel, which has surged ahead in vaccinating its adult population, reported a sharp rise in...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Covid-19: More young children are being infected in Israel and Italy, emerging data suggest
> 
> 
> Experts have warned that schools must be reopened with caution, amid emerging evidence from Israel and Italy that more young children are being infected with new variants of covid-19.  Paediatricians in Israel, which has surged ahead in vaccinating its adult population, reported a sharp rise in...
> ...


Experts, what do they know eh?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 16, 2021)

Scotland starting to open schools


> Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed that a phased return to school for younger pupils will start from Monday.
> 
> This will include children aged four to seven and secondary school pupils required to carry out practical assignments.


Pretty much in line with what has been mentioned in the press.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 16, 2021)

Since the end of January, Wales has been aiming to re-open schools for primary school children from Monday 22nd February ... 

I'm not finding it easy to find more recent updates about this though .....


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 16, 2021)

Back to the England discussion ....




			
				kebanking said:
			
		

> The 'everybody back' date is after the Easter holidays - 19th of April.



With Good Friday being 2nd April/Easter Monday being 5th April, the above (if true) must mean that the 'Easter holidays' run for the two weeks from Good Friday onwards, yes? 

(Apologies, I'm almost always out of touch with school holiday dates most years, not just in a Covid year!  )


----------



## kebabking (Feb 16, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Back to the England discussion ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, that's certainly the position in our bit of England.

Have some form of school opening for three weeks, then two weeks off, then all in - barring some new devilry.

Interestingly, the older kids at our local high school have been told that blended learning is on the cards for them post-Easter, but whether that will be in one week, out the next, or days, hasn't yet been decided.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 16, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Scotland starting to open schools
> Pretty much in line with what has been mentioned in the press.


This probably means my middle boy (exam year, doing music and drama) will be going in for some practical assessment at some point. We haven't heard anything directly yet, I expect an email from the school giving us some idea later this week. He's not overjoyed about it.


----------



## Mation (Feb 16, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Nah, useful for the schools issue, but dreadful politics in big picture terms - if they stick with JCVI they have an absolute firewall. No blame can be attached to them if they stick ridgedly to what JCVI want, but as soon as they deviate it's completely open season on everything.
> 
> Given the Hellscape of blame that's going to come the government's way come the the public equity, I can see why they are taking the ultra-cautious approach - if I was sat in Hancock's shoes, I'd probably take the same view.
> 
> ...


If the government cared about blame being attached to them (other than at the level of individual interview and awkward questions they haven't rehearsed for), they wouldn't have done most of the things they've done. 

Right now, they can do what they want and they'd still be voted in (including changing the vaccine priority schedule, which could be reasonably justified).


----------



## Cloo (Feb 20, 2021)

Papers all seem to be convinced that Monday's announcement will be all schools open on 8th, really not sure if that will actually be the case or not. I'm of the view that, fercryingoutloud just hold on another 3 weeks and it's the holidays anyway and you're that much better off, but I know other parents are in much more dire straits than we are without school.

Both my kids' summer terms start 13 April, son's previous one ending around 25 March and daughter's just before the Easter weekend.


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 20, 2021)

We're planning a travel card this pay cheque. Because who knows?


----------



## mwgdrwg (Feb 20, 2021)

Wales and Scotland are opening schools in a phased manner and slowly. Why the fuck does England want to open every school on the same day and so early. Mad cunts in charge.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 21, 2021)

souljacker said:


> I was working at a secondary school in North London today and the chap I was working with told me the union won't support a return this side of easter.


If this Covid business ends up being the catalyst for some rebalancing of the worker/corporate power balance, that would be a very good thing. 

I've long believed that what's best is when you have a dynamic equilibrium between parties, not a situation where one party is able to lord it over the other. 

I shall be very glad to see unions and their membership taking a more robust stand. It's about time.


----------



## hypernormalized (Feb 21, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I've long believed that what's best is when you have a dynamic equilibrium between parties, not a situation where one party is able to lord it over the other.



Yep. I'm constantly baffled by the number of people I encounter that seem to have the attitude "well they should just suck it up". The implicit assumption being, well, what are you going to do, starve?

Society works better when everyone is on a relatively level footing and so people are able to contract with each other on equal terms.

Off topic, but I'm interested to see what happens on the railways. I've always supported rail strikes in the past but moving forward I'm wondering whether WFH will hugely reduce negotiating power :/


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 21, 2021)

Catastrophes like pandemics and wars are catalysts for major social change  that can't happen in the normal run of events. This one will be no different and changes many of which will be completely unpredictable will happen.
Tbh I find myself thinking that Sir Kier the Insipid and the Shadow Cabinet in particular need a good slapping. They should be out front trying to steer these changes. They may not succeed but they don't even seem to be trying.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Catastrophes like pandemics and wars are catalysts for major social change  that can't happen in the normal run of events. This one will be no different and changes many of which will be completely unpredictable will happen.
> Tbh I find myself thinking that Sir Kier the Insipid and the Shadow Cabinet in particular need a good slapping. They should be out front trying to steer these changes. They may not succeed but they don't even seem to be trying.



I think, from listening to some labour wonks on the radio, that that is a tactical, political decision, not a 'big picture' one. The calculation being that while the the pandemic/effects are still on, the public at large simply aren't listening, and don't want to hear grandiose policies about a future that seems completely disconnected from the lockdown/WFH/homeschool/Hellscape reality of their 'what day is it?' lives. Even the Corbyn adviser who was otherwise critical of Sir Keith agreed with that.

Post lockdown it will (should) be a different story.


----------



## elbows (Feb 21, 2021)

I just noticed that ZOE Covid are trying to get schools to sign up:









						COVID School Communities Programme
					

We're expanding the UK's largest citizen science project to better understand COVID-19 in children. Sign up your school and parents can log children's health in just 1 minute each day. Sign up today and help us beat COVID-19.




					covid.joinzoe.com


----------



## trashpony (Feb 22, 2021)

We're all going back on 8th March









						Covid-19: Boris Johnson to unveil 'cautious' plan to lift England's lockdown
					

All schools are expected to reopen on 8 March, with some outdoor socialising allowed from 29 March.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## mwgdrwg (Feb 22, 2021)

trashpony said:


> We're all going back on 8th March
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only in England, they aren't even making a decision about my son's year (year 9) until the 15th of March in Wales. The very youngest in primary are back today (though not in every area). Makes much much more sense to do it gradually. 

Fuck knows why England is so keen to increase their infection rate.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 22, 2021)

trashpony said:


> We're all going back on 8th March
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fucks sake.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 22, 2021)

I'm so angry. I have a meeting in school tomorrow so will ask lots of questions about safety measures. I know most staff there aren't bothered, but I am. It's been a year of following rules, denial, grieving alone in a bedroom, but now I'm supposed to just be fine with going into a place with 1000+ teenagers who don't follow the rules? Why are we not getting vaccines? I'll decide this week whether I'm quitting or not. I'm only on a short contract so it's not life changing for me. What about teachers who are vulnerable?


----------



## miss direct (Feb 22, 2021)

In my contract it says during probation period (first three months) - they can sack me with one week's notice, but I always have to give one month's notice. Clearly I'm not going to give one month's notice when we are supposed to be in on the 8th of March. Will there be any legal problems for me if I quit before the 8th of March at short notice? My programme is an extra programme so it really won't have any massive effect on anyone if it doesn't go ahead.


----------



## Thora (Feb 22, 2021)

miss direct said:


> In my contract it says during probation period (first three months) - they can sack me with one week's notice, but I always have to give one month's notice. Clearly I'm not going to give one month's notice when we are supposed to be in on the 8th of March. Will there be any legal problems for me if I quit before the 8th of March at short notice? My programme is an extra programme so it really won't have any massive effect on anyone if it doesn't go ahead.


I’d say zero chance of them taking you to court.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 22, 2021)

Maybe I should just do nothing and wait for them to sack me


----------



## existentialist (Feb 22, 2021)

miss direct said:


> In my contract it says during probation period (first three months) - they can sack me with one week's notice, but I always have to give one month's notice. Clearly I'm not going to give one month's notice when we are supposed to be in on the 8th of March. Will there be any legal problems for me if I quit before the 8th of March at short notice? My programme is an extra programme so it really won't have any massive effect on anyone if it doesn't go ahead.


One option might be to go to your GP, and tell them that you are stressed and anxious at the prospect of risking catching Covid-19 - they'll almost certainly sign you off sick, and then you have at least documented your non-start on 8 Mar?


----------



## miss direct (Feb 22, 2021)

I still haven't registered with a GP (I was waiting until I was actually settled in one place - I've moved four times in the last 8 months) - perhaps I can squeeze in a registration and visit before the 8th? Pay day is the end of the month so that seemed like a good place to end...


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 22, 2021)

miss direct said:


> In my contract it says during probation period (first three months) - they can sack me with one week's notice, but I always have to give one month's notice. Clearly I'm not going to give one month's notice when we are supposed to be in on the 8th of March. Will there be any legal problems for me if I quit before the 8th of March at short notice? My programme is an extra programme so it really won't have any massive effect on anyone if it doesn't go ahead.


The only impact will be that you won’t be able to use them as a reference.  I mean, you could -
But I wouldn’t.  

I totally understand your fears, and respect your choice to resign. I have serious reservations myself, but inevitably, like workers in care homes, public transport and supermarkets, people who work in school are, somewhere along the line, required to accept a higher risk to their health because the consequences of shutting up shop outweigh that risk.  With schools it’s a balancing act between the many real harmcaused by schools being closed and the real medical harm caused by them being open.  

Im clinically vulnerable (though not CXV), and my initial reaction to the news has been fear and resistance- but actually now I’m quite relieved to be going back. I’ve been keeping about 75% of the kids busy and thinking, but I haven’t been _teaching_ them  anywhere near the same way as I would, and there’s a significant minority I haven’t been able to reach at all.  I’m really worried about some of them, and so many problems can begin to be solved by just being able to see them face to face.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 22, 2021)

I'm not sure I'd use them as a reference anyway to be honest. I barely feel like I work there. 

I know what you're saying spanglechick but my friends who work in care homes have all had the vaccine, and bus drivers/supermarket workers have screens (although of course there is still an increased risk when dealing with the public).

I've seen what it's like in my school and compared with the measures back in Turkey it just seems woeful. Mask wearing is minimal, and there's a strong sense of covid denial among students and parents. 

It would be different if this were my actual career and I loved it, but so far, I really don't. It's hard to judge because I've just been online doing one to ones with mostly reluctant students. So different to the teaching I do know and love. 

I'd hoped I'd be placed into a multicultural school with lots of EAL students I could work with, but my school is the opposite end of the spectrum.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2021)

Aaargh!


----------



## elbows (Feb 22, 2021)

And R may already be above 1 in some areas.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Aaargh!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 22, 2021)

Jesus fucking Christ.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 22, 2021)

I've had four different people in emails say they're looking forward to some good news from tonight's announcement. People be crazy


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 22, 2021)

So what's the difference with this whole safe workplace thing then? Lower case numbers in the wider community? Are we down to start of September levels? Anything else?


----------



## elbows (Feb 22, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> So what's the difference with this whole safe workplace thing then? Lower case numbers in the wider community? Are we down to start of September levels? Anything else?



Case numbers are way higher than the start of September.

It might be fair to say that their approach is based on vaccinations changing the ratio of hospitalisations and deaths to cases. So they will give less of a shit about number of cases.


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 22, 2021)

elbows said:


> Case numbers are way higher than the start of September.
> 
> It might be fair to say that their approach is based on vaccinations changing the ratio of hospitalisations and deaths to cases. So they will give less of a shit about number of cases.


Exactly. I'm wondering about any union response I think.


----------



## aqua (Feb 22, 2021)

The BBC article literally states that they're not bothered about containing the virus any more just on reducing hospital admissions, which the vaccine seems to be doing. Well that's nice isn't it. As long as you don't block a bed, or be so rude as to die, you're just grand.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 22, 2021)

So are all the children going to continue to be sent home to isolate every time someone tests positive? Cause my kids were hardly in school Nov to Dec. And of course the teachers are not vaccinated; doubt the unions will have the balls to stick it to Boris.


----------



## Thora (Feb 22, 2021)

nagapie said:


> So are all the children going to continue to be sent home to isolate every time someone tests positive? Cause my kids were hardly in school Nov to Dec. And of course the teachers are not vaccinated; doubt the unions will have the balls to stick it to Boris.


Aren’t they going to be tested every day instead?


----------



## nagapie (Feb 22, 2021)

Thora said:


> Aren’t they going to be tested every day instead?


And then all sent home 😂. Or will they be caged for 30min after testing. And testing primary students every day, the mind boggles, my son might refuse to go to school as he finds the test so unpleasant.


----------



## oryx (Feb 22, 2021)

So... just as we get the R-rate down, the number of cases below 10,000 (albeit on a weekend) and the vaccine rollout going well, the Government are going to risk blowing all this progress by opening schools.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 22, 2021)

aqua said:


> As long as you don't block a bed, or be so rude as to die, you're just grand.


Actually, if this were the logic, it would be totally rational IMO.No point in locking down if no-one is going to die or get seriously ill. It's just that's not the reality.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Aaargh!




He's confessing to a crime in advance. This is the sort of thing that happens when people face zero accountability for their actions.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 22, 2021)

oryx said:


> So... just as w get the R-rate down, the number of cases below 10,000 (albeit on a weekend) and the vaccine rollout going well, the Government are going to risk blowing all this progress by opening schools.



Highest numbers are usually on a Tuesday so tomorrow should be interesting.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 22, 2021)

oryx said:


> So... just as we get the R-rate down, the number of cases below 10,000 (albeit on a weekend) and the vaccine rollout going well, *the Government are going to risk blowing all this progress by opening schools*.



 

If I was a parent or teacher, I'd absolutely be with other peoples' posts earlier in this thread, about this.

Why TF are they not delaying all this school re-opening until post-Easter-holidays at least? 

Just remembering : I think someone suggested earlier up, that the Gov are testing the infection-increase-rate-waters with re-opening schools about three weeks before Easter --  is there anything in that idea??


----------



## existentialist (Feb 22, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> If I was a parent or teacher, I'd absolutely be with other peoples' posts earlier in this thread, about this.
> 
> Why TF are they not delaying all this school re-opening until post-Easter-holidays at least?
> 
> Just remembering : I think someone suggested earlier up, that the Gov are testing the infection-increase-rate-waters with re-opening schools about three weeks before Easter --  is there anything in that idea??


You'd never be able to prove it. And that's the sort of thing this rotten government relies on.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 23, 2021)

Schools Wider Opening from 8 March
					

Today’s announcement that all pupils will return to English schools and colleges on 8 March demonstrates, again, that Boris Johnson has, despite all his words of caution, failed to learn the lessons of his previous mistakes




					neu.org.uk
				






> Commenting on the Prime Minister’s statement confirming the wider opening of schools and colleges from 8 March, Dr Mary Bousted, joint general secretary of the National Education Union, said:
> 
> “Today’s announcement that all pupils will return to English schools and colleges on 8 March demonstrates, again, that Boris Johnson has, despite all his words of caution, failed to learn the lessons of his previous mistakes.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2021)

Waiting for the NEU to do something besides wringing their hands. Not hopeful though. And any real action on their part would trigger a media pile-on of such ferocity that it might well put teachers at genuine risk of physical harm.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 23, 2021)

I went into school today because I had a meeting and also have to show my face now and again. The mask wearing was as dismal amongst students and some staff as usual, although now and again I heard a member of staff telling students to put them on. 90% of kids just have them on chins. This goes no way towards making me feel remotely safe. 

The room I'm meant to be working in has no opening windows and cold air con (air con is not meant to help with virus spread at all if I remember correctly.)


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 23, 2021)

In six months Wales has moved from "masks are bottom priority" to yesterday when we were told we can only wear the blue N95 (I think) masks or the triple layer ones they have now provided us with. Which is good. There were too many people coming in with snoods (is that what they're called?) and bloody scarves wrapped around their mouths (and not their nose). Also been told to encourage pupils wearing masks, though we can't make that compulsory.

It's an improvement, but I still rage at the bullshit back-to-school guidance the Senedd issued in September.


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Also been told to encourage pupils wearing masks, though we can't make that compulsory.



What’s the reason for not being able to make mask wearing compulsory?


----------



## miss direct (Feb 23, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> In six months Wales has moved from "masks are bottom priority" to yesterday when we were told we can only wear the blue N95 (I think) masks or the triple layer ones they have now provided us with. Which is good. There were too many people coming in with snoods (is that what they're called?) and bloody scarves wrapped around their mouths (and not their nose). Also been told to encourage pupils wearing masks, though we can't make that compulsory.
> 
> It's an improvement, but I still rage at the bullshit back-to-school guidance the Senedd issued in September.


I'm still annoyed at the UK not making masks a thing until July. Pathetic. And calling them "face coverings" so people do just pull a scarf up. I'm just so angry every time I think about the messages all this farting about has sent. 

Good that you're being provided with them. I wear a sort of N95 one which is the most comfortable one but I've only got 2. All other teachers just wear cloth ones.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 23, 2021)

zahir said:


> What’s the reason for not being able to make mask wearing compulsory?



Because they're 16 and under I guess. Originally (eons ago) we were told the kids would never wear them, and they'd affect their education if they did. Most of our kids bloody love wearing them because it makes them feel safe and/or look like a bank robber (it's a PRU, naughty kids).


----------



## miss direct (Feb 23, 2021)

Also hides spotty chins. I would have rather liked that as a teenager.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 23, 2021)

The word from our SLT informally, is that there’s no way all years can be back on the 8th, because of the requirements around lateral flow testing.


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2021)

I take it from this that parents who don’t send their children in will face fines.




e2a - this is the guidance: 
	

			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/963541/Schools_coronavirus_operational_guidance.pdf


----------



## PursuedByBears (Feb 23, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> The word from our SLT informally, is that there’s no way all years can be back on the 8th, because of the requirements around lateral flow testing.


My daughter's school have also said as much in a letter home today, they'll have Year 13 and Year 11 students in for testing first, then Years 10 and 12. L is in Year 7 and hopefully will be back in on Thursday 11th.


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2021)

A thread on the guidance.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 23, 2021)

My school will take a week to bring everyone back. Talk of students having to bring in spare masks, testing eventually at home and the 2m rule. So it's all bollox really. I do want them back but it's ridiculous to pretend it'll be anything but a load of super spreader events.


----------



## trashpony (Feb 23, 2021)

I’ve just told E about mandatory lateral flow testing. I think I’m going to have a really hard time getting him back. ☹️


----------



## nagapie (Feb 23, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I’ve just told E about mandatory lateral flow testing. I think I’m going to have a really hard time getting him back. ☹


This is going to be a huge problem for both of mine too, if they're also doing primary.


----------



## trashpony (Feb 23, 2021)

nagapie said:


> This is going to be a huge problem for both of mine too, if they're also doing primary.


I can't imagine they're alone.


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2021)

Thread on risk to teachers.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 23, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Because they're 16 and under I guess. Originally (eons ago) we were told the kids would never wear them, and they'd affect their education if they did. Most of our kids bloody love wearing them because it makes them feel safe and/or look like a bank robber (it's a PRU, naughty kids).


Senior secondary school kids have to wear masks in Scotland, our exam year kids are back in school part time for certain practical assessments this week and we've had very firm letters from the school saying masks are mandatory unless the student has a medical exemption certificate from their GP and they will be sent home if they don't and refuse to wear one. Not a PRU though, standard state secondary school.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 25, 2021)

I got a consent form for testing my daughter today. 

They want me to consent to continue to send her to school if other people she lives with contract covid until it fully develops. 

_"I consent that if a close contact of my child tests positive but my child has tested negative, they will continue to attend school but will be tested every day at school for what would otherwise have been the isolation period in force at the time (currently 10 days). "_

Thats a bit mad isn't it?

Also I have just noticed that they have put the dates as MMDDYYYY (FFS) so I have entered my daughters birthday wrong and there is no way to submit a correction. 

Twats.


----------



## zahir (Feb 25, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> They want me to consent to continue to send her to school if other people she lives with contract covid until it fully develops.
> 
> _"I consent that if a close contact of my child tests positive but my child has tested negative, they will continue to attend school but will be tested every day at school for what would otherwise have been the isolation period in force at the time (currently 10 days). "_
> 
> Thats a bit mad isn't it?



It's massively irresponsible.


----------



## Cloo (Feb 25, 2021)

I haven't read consent form from daughter's school yet.

I must buy more masks, as she loses them like nobody's business - don't know when she'll be back, as Y8 I'd have thought that's about lowest priority. She is coping fine at home so if it were to be not before Easter I honestly wouldn't mind.


----------



## baldrick (Feb 25, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I got a consent form for testing my daughter today.
> 
> They want me to consent to continue to send her to school if other people she lives with contract covid until it fully develops.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's in DfE guidance any more that schools should use LFT in place of self isolation.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2021)

That first week back is gonna be chaos, I doubt any teaching or learning will get done.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> That first week back is gonna be chaos, I doubt any teaching or learning will get done.


Just the first week?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Just the first week?



Well I've only got three more weeks then I'm off to a different school. So just enough time to actually meet the kids I've been teaching for the last two months, then say goodbye to them all


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 25, 2021)

My place want to start going back from the 8th too.
It will be phased but I do teach students  who would be a high priority to get back in.
I'm going to see if I can use the week of the 8th to just students with the highest needs  and  wait until the week after before bringing back more people. 
Also the topic i'm covering is normally associated with outside of college work  so it's not  that unusual to only have those with high needs in.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 25, 2021)

baldrick said:


> I don't think it's in DfE guidance any more that schools should use LFT in place of self isolation.



What is LFT?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 25, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> What is LFT?


Lateral flow testing









						Understanding lateral flow antigen testing for people without symptoms
					

An explanation of the technology behind asymptomatic testing and the role these tests play in the national coronavirus (COVID-19) testing programme.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 25, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Lateral flow testing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh god, sorry, so obvious. For some reason when reading it abbreviated as LFT - only 'liver function test' popped into my head.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 25, 2021)

It's  understandable. So many thing get TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) that it all get a bit word salad.


----------



## miss direct (Feb 25, 2021)

Reading this thread is really making me feel like I'm doing the right thing. Some schools may be able to control things a little more carefully. Not mine though.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 25, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> It's  understandable. So many thing get TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) that it all get a bit word salad.



I should also admit that FTL faster than light drive also sprung to mind, but was obviously in the wrong order.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 25, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I should also admit that FTL faster than light drive also sprung to mind, but was obviously in the wrong order.


Perhaps they were trying to use time dilation to get things done.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 26, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I got a consent form for testing my daughter today.
> 
> They want me to consent to continue to send her to school if other people she lives with contract covid until it fully develops.
> 
> ...


By “close contacts” I’d have thought they’re primarily talking about other kids at school, since the need for isolation after in-school contacts is the only bit that schools are expected to have a say in.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I got a consent form for testing my daughter today.
> 
> They want me to consent to continue to send her to school if other people she lives with contract covid until it fully develops.
> 
> ...



Wonder if this sort of shit will bring a few parents round to the teaching unions' way of thinking.

Seems like the work of a government determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2021)




----------



## zahir (Feb 26, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


>




I've just watched this and it's a lot of bollocks imo.


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2021)

zahir said:


> I've just watched this and it's a lot of bollocks imo.


His perspective is probably skewed by the whole family having had covid early on.
It's a tough decision and one I'm glad I don't have to make.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 26, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> By “close contacts” I’d have thought they’re primarily talking about other kids at school, since the need for isolation after in-school contacts is the only bit that schools are expected to have a say in.


I hope so, maybe I just misunderstood then. Thought it meant close contact as in living. But even so, doesn't this screw up the school bubble thing? Surely it's better to be overly cautious?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 26, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Surely it's better to be overly cautious?


Don’t be daft, that isn’t the attitude that gets an economy going again. All in this together, over the top we go, it’ll all be over by Xmas...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 26, 2021)

this sounds like a living nightmare for teachers 








						English school leaders despair over new rules on Covid tests and masks
					

Teachers concerned that measures are unenforceable and some parents may withhold consent for regular testing




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## miss direct (Feb 26, 2021)

I'm not even a teacher but its already awful


----------



## Edie (Feb 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> this sounds like a living nightmare for teachers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Christ alive teachers and dinner ladies administering lateral flow tests with (at best) moderate specificity with 30%+ of kids not taking them is like the definition of pointless.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 26, 2021)

mate teacher in hackney " all day I have had no I won’t give consent/ the swap puts electrodes in your brain and a host of other nonsense to be left hanging by this utter bunch of incompetents, My kids nose will hurt , it is against her human rights. I am beginning to think the great British public and this government deserve each other"


----------



## zahir (Feb 26, 2021)

zahir said:


> I've just watched this and it's a lot of bollocks imo.





gentlegreen said:


> His perspective is probably skewed by the whole family having had covid early on.
> It's a tough decision and one I'm glad I don't have to make.



The whole scientific debate about transmission in schools is odd and seems to have got politicised. The doctor in the video isn’t really acknowledging the arguments against his position. See this thread for example from an epidemiologist in Australia:




She has had pushback for her position:





That’s in Australia but here’s a thread from Deepti Gurdasani reporting the same kind of pressure:


----------



## May Kasahara (Feb 26, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> It's  understandable. So many thing get TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) that it all get a bit word salad.



Lol, I read this and immediately thought "Temporary Learning Arrangement?" Word salad indeed.

Sometimes I like to entertain myself by writing internal emails with as many acronyms as possible


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 26, 2021)

Also Teaching and Learning Assistant.


----------



## elbows (Feb 26, 2021)

baldrick said:


> I don't think it's in DfE guidance any more that schools should use LFT in place of self isolation.




Yes, and also see this article from January. The government didnt decide to do the right thing out of thin air, the regulator wouldnt approve the use of those tests instead of self-isolation, scuppering their plans. 



> The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) told the government on Tuesday it had not authorised the daily use of 30-minute tests due to concerns that they give people false reassurance if they test negative.
> 
> This could lead to pupils staying in school and potentially spreading the virus when they should be self-isolating.











						Regulator refuses to approve mass daily Covid testing at English schools
					

Exclusive: Boris Johnson’s plan to test millions of pupils a week in disarray after concerns raised




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Cloo (Feb 26, 2021)

We need to read through the letter stuff for daughter's school tonight.  She will go back on 9th but a bit in and out for first week as initially they'll be tested at school. Tests at home from week after. I quite surprised they're getting back so soon,  but then it's a relatively small school so they have a more manageable job than some others.


----------



## zahir (Feb 26, 2021)

Thread on risks to teachers


----------



## baldrick (Feb 26, 2021)

elbows said:


> Yes, and also see this article from January. The government didnt decide to do the right thing out of thin air, the regulator wouldnt approve the use of those tests instead of self-isolation, scuppering their plans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do remember that and I also remember lots of schools going full steam ahead with prep for LFT before Christmas. I felt that was a mistake at the time, which was later vindicated by the 11th hour lockdown after one day back in school. Strangely, there's no mention of that inconvenient fact in the DfE guidance but attributed to the 'new variant' instead.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 26, 2021)

Staff at ours who are returning to school having been teaching at home have to get tested at an asymptomatic testing centre between Weds and Fri next week, outside of our teaching hours, of course.  This is because there’s no capacity to do it at school.  Potentially this will mean teachers from schools across the area all trying to get slots after 3pm on the only three days that will fall within the window.  Excellent.  That can’t go wrong!
Anyone know how far in advance those test slots can be booked?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Staff at ours who are returning to school having been teaching at home have to get tested at an asymptomatic testing centre between Weds and Fri next week, outside of our teaching hours, of course.  This is because there’s no capacity to do it at school.  Potentially this will mean teachers from schools across the area all trying to get slots after 3pm on the only three days that will fall within the window.  Excellent.  That can’t go wrong!
> Anyone know how far in advance those test slots can be booked?



We've got to collect home test kits from school next week and log multiple tests by March 8th. The test kits have (drumroll) not been received by the school yet.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 26, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> We've got to collect home test kits from school next week and log multiple tests by March 8th. The test kits have (drumroll) not been received by the school yet.


We can’t collect ours until 8th. So first one has to be done at a test centre.


----------



## zahir (Feb 26, 2021)

Thread on biases affecting research on children


----------



## existentialist (Feb 26, 2021)

zahir said:


> Thread on biases affecting research on children



Some of these were glaringly obvious even at the time, for example the steadfast refusal to test children, interleaved with assurances that children weren't an infection issue.


----------



## flypanam (Feb 26, 2021)

Ex Ofsted chief jumps in showing what a bunch of evil fucks they are









						Teachers should be prepared to ‘sacrifice their lives’, says ex-Ofsted head
					

Children return back to school on 8 March




					www.google.com


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 26, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Ex Ofsted chief jumps in showing what a bunch of evil fucks they are
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. What a cunt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Ex Ofsted chief jumps in showing what a bunch of evil fucks they are
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, worth reminding everyone here that OFSTED inspectors won't be showing up in schools in person until further notice. But nothing really turns on that because all they ever do is make shit worse anyway.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 26, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Again, worth reminding everyone here that OFSTED inspectors won't be showing up in schools in person until further notice. But nothing really turns on that because all they ever do is make shit worse anyway.


Over lockdown I got ofsteded. In my online class and checking marking and talking to students. 

Turned out ok but I almost had a heart attack.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Over lockdown I got ofsteded. In my online class and checking marking and talking to students.
> 
> Turned out ok but I almost had a heart attack.



How does that work? Honestly if some random shows up in my online class I'm saying I
I don't know you, can't check your credentials, safeguarding comes first, leave immediately or I will end this session.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Feb 26, 2021)

Butting in here - just listening to Van Tam, justifying teachers (NOT all school staff) not being vaccinated.

He has compared some mostly male dominated professions, against a comparison with _male_ teachers, to defend their reasoning and that's also been done using data from March to the end of Dec, when schools were shut to all but a few pupils for 2/3rds of that time.

Male teachers make up around 25% of teachers (in 2019, no reason to imagine there's been much of a shift). 
I'm not sure that that includes teaching assistants either (who have much higher case rates/mortality?). 
Along with that, teachers make up slightly under a half of the total of _all_ school staff. 
Can't find any male to female ratio figures for the rest but, outside of facilities (caretaking etc - who generally spend more time outside anyway) my own experience is that the bulk of the rest - admin, cleaning, kitchen staff (of which I am one - and where I note that catering is a pretty high risk profession) are women.

So, they are using figures for the 25% of all male teachers, which ought to be further reduced (to half that? Less?) when you look at _all_ school staff, for a period of time when many of them wouldn't have been onsite anyway for the greater proportion of that time and/or with far fewer kids outside of March - Sep (when SD WAS easy), _then_ setting those against risks to other, more male dominated professions, to produce some fucking _made up_ numbers that will only continue to diminsh the safety of all school staff, along with feeding the idea that it's teachers being difficult, while they experiment with fully opening schools.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 26, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> How does that work? Honestly if some random shows up in my online class I'm saying I
> I don't know you, can't check your credentials, safeguarding comes first, leave immediately or I will end this session.


I was notified a day ahead that it would be happening.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2021)

sheothebudworths said:


> Butting in here - just listening to Van Tam, justifying teachers (NOT all school staff) not being vaccinated.
> 
> He has compared some mostly male dominated professions, against a comparison with _male_ teachers, to defend their reasoning and that's also been done using data from March to the end of Dec, when schools were shut to all but a few pupils for 2/3rds of that time.
> 
> ...



Men are far more likely to die, which is why he used figures for men. Teaching assistants are at lower risk of death than teachers in those ONS stats.

I agree with the JCVIs decision, because if you start doing it by occupation it’s going to get pretty messy - however you view it, teachers won’t be top of the pile in terms of risk, and you can debate for ever about what job titles of catering worker are most at risk compared to other catering workers or whatever. 

Doing it by age means the most at-risk people in all occupations will be vaccinated first.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Feb 26, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Men are far more likely to die, which is why he used figures for men. Teaching assistants are at lower risk of death than teachers in those ONS stats.
> 
> I agree with the JCVIs decision, because if you start doing it by occupation it’s going to get pretty messy - however you view it, teachers won’t be top of the pile in terms of risk, and you can debate for ever about what job titles of catering worker are most at risk compared to other catering workers or whatever.
> 
> Doing it by age means the most at-risk people in all occupations will be vaccinated first.



I agree that it's complicated to work out risks for individual professions but schools are being fully opened, first.
I am well aware that men are at greater risk of dying from covid (& so are older and BAME staff). Why do you think that is? What positions are those men working in?
Men only make up 25% of teachers and the results are from a period covering March to Dec (schools were shut to most pupils between March - Sep) therefore the results are not comparative to other professions - particularly when they are compared to other professions where the ratio of men is far higher (obviously?).
Fwiw, teachers also make up less than 50% of school staff.

There are newer (worse, all round) stats that go beyond December - you'd imagine they'd be relevant in making decisions to reopen schools.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2021)

I doubt newer stats would push teachers to the riskiest occupation. Plenty of more risky occupations in transport, food preparation etc have been going throughout lockdown, and these workers would be ahead of teachers on a risk basis. 

Attempting to do it by occupation would mean older school staff most at risk of death would possibly get the vaccine later than if it was done purely by age.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Attempting to do it by occupation would mean older school staff most at risk of death would possibly get the vaccine later than if it was done purely by age.



Prioritising school staff would make school staff...less likely to get vaccinated?


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Prioritising school staff would make school staff...less likely to get vaccinated?



That’s not what I said was it. Prioritising by risk of occupation would mean school staff wouldn’t be first on the list, other occupations would be vaccinated first. 

The school staff most at risk have already been vaccinated, because age is the biggest risk factor, so continuing on that basis is fairest for everyone. And it means an e.g 49 year old school teacher gets the jab ahead of a 20 year old police woman etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> That’s not what I said was it. Prioritising by risk of occupation would mean school staff wouldn’t be first on the list, other occupations would be vaccinated first.
> 
> The school staff most at risk have already been vaccinated, because age is the biggest risk factor, so continuing on that basis is fairest for everyone. And it means an e.g 49 year old school teacher gets the jab ahead of a 20 year old police woman etc.



I have definitely not suggested bumping police up the queue. Unless you can catch covid from kebabs and racism they should be just fine.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 26, 2021)

What the fuck is wrong with these people?   









						Teachers should be prepared to ‘sacrifice their lives’, says ex-Ofsted head
					

Children return back to school on 8 March




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 27, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> What the fuck is wrong with these people?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The engrained mindset that sent young people off to die in 1914 hasn’t ever gone away.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 27, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> What the fuck is wrong with these people?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They're just really, _really_ sick of spending time with their own children.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Feb 27, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> What the fuck is wrong with these people?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Self-sacrifice is the next logical step after labelling everyone as "heroes".


----------



## nagapie (Feb 27, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They're just really, _really_ sick of spending time with their own children.


Well this guy isn't, Ofsted is populated by old white farts whose children are no doubt grown up already. They were also one of the first educational external agencies to suspend their visits at the start of Corona. Weasley hypocrites.


----------



## prunus (Feb 27, 2021)

Seems any secondary school staff who volunteer to do some of the lateral flow testing  of pupils will be able to get a vaccine immediately as volunteer front-line health staff - so hopefully schools will organise themselves such that everyone is a volunteer, and cut through this mess.


----------



## stdP (Feb 27, 2021)

prunus said:


> Seems any secondary school staff who volunteer to do some of the lateral flow testing  of pupils will be able to get a vaccine immediately as volunteer front-line health staff - so hopefully schools will organise themselves such that everyone is a volunteer, and cut through this mess.



Shouldn't the first doses should have gone out to people a month ago then, given that they take at least two weeks to have an appreciable effect?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 27, 2021)

stdP said:


> Shouldn't the first doses should have gone out to people a month ago then, given that they take at least two weeks to have an appreciable effect?


That would have been a very good idea. Which is probably why they're not doing it.


----------



## prunus (Feb 27, 2021)

stdP said:


> Shouldn't the first doses should have gone out to people a month ago then, given that they take at least two weeks to have an appreciable effect?



Should, certainly. But this is better than nothing (albeit it’s accidental rather than targeted).

In Lambeth and Southwark at least the local NHS trust(s) have been running a scheme for several weeks where excess doses are given to local teachers, police, and other groups (rather than them go to waste). It’s semi-official in that they have clearance to do it (ie in an organised way rather than just back-door). Why it isn’t national policy I don’t know - it might be happening in other areas too of course.

All the staff at my partner’s school and my kids’ schools have been done a week or more ago, so they should be into the protection zone by the 8th.


----------



## stdP (Feb 27, 2021)

Thanks, I hadn't heard of the scheme (the other half applied for volunteer positions in lambeth in november/december but there weren't any placements due to the new lockdown) - nice to hear at least someone's being sensible about it, even if it is just "excess" doses.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 27, 2021)

prunus said:


> Should, certainly. But this is better than nothing (albeit it’s accidental rather than targeted).
> 
> In Lambeth and Southwark at least the local NHS trust(s) have been running a scheme for several weeks where excess doses are given to local teachers, police, and other groups (rather than them go to waste). It’s semi-official in that they have clearance to do it (ie in an organised way rather than just back-door). Why it isn’t national policy I don’t know - it might be happening in other areas too of course.
> 
> All the staff at my partner’s school and my kids’ schools have been done a week or more ago, so they should be into the protection zone by the 8th.


I teach in a Lambeth school and it hasn’t been offered to us.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 27, 2021)

round here, there's some schools getting kids in towards the end of this coming week for a covid test rather than trying to do it all monday week.

i've got a school bus network ready to run again from 8 march and now waiting for the government's latest screeching u-turn and / or half the schools to decide they want to change their hours / have kids doing staggered start / finish times and all that sort of thing...


----------



## nagapie (Feb 27, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I teach in a Lambeth school and it hasn’t been offered to us.


Me neither but gaijingirl got one I think.


----------



## prunus (Feb 27, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I teach in a Lambeth school and it hasn’t been offered to us.



Ah, I don’t know the precise details of the scheme I’m afraid, maybe it’s only Southwark, sorry; I thought it was both. My info is only 2nd hand.  I believe the thing to do is have your head contact Kings and get the school booked in. Hope it works. Apologies if it doesn’t.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 27, 2021)

prunus said:


> Ah, I don’t know the precise details of the scheme I’m afraid, maybe it’s only Southwark, sorry; I thought it was both. My info is only 2nd hand.  I believe the thing to do is have your head contact Kings and get the school booked in. Hope it works. Apologies if it doesn’t.


I would like details if anyone has them to give to my head. We are a Lambeth school but on the border with Southwark and very close to Kings.


----------



## zahir (Feb 27, 2021)

Another thread on harassment of scientists over transmission in children


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 27, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Me neither but gaijingirl got one I think.



Yes I did. It was basically just the schools nearest to Kings.


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 27, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I would like details if anyone has them to give to my head. We are a Lambeth school but on the border with Southwark and very close to Kings.



They just took it upon themselves to contact the nearest schools. It's super ad-hoc. It got cancelled at the last-minute last week as their own staff took up the leftovers.


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 27, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I would like details if anyone has them to give to my head. We are a Lambeth school but on the order with Southwark and very close to Kings.


I don't think it's that organised. You probably could get your head to ask kings to have them on standby if you're near. 

Chemistry teaches in Southwark and has not had the opportunity.


----------



## prunus (Feb 27, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> They just took it upon themselves to contact the nearest schools. It's super ad-hoc. It got cancelled at the last-minute last week as their own staff took up the leftovers.



Ah, apologies for misleading, I understood it to be a bit more formalised than that; the dangers of second hand information.


----------



## zahir (Feb 27, 2021)

Thread on new CDC guidance for schools in the US


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 2, 2021)

My daughter appears to be going in for a test next Tuesday, (and then again for the others at some later date) but will still be remote learning for a few weeks I think. The school seems to be dealing with it as best they can, but so much seems up in the air, and they seems quite aware that the government might change their minds at any point.

I still find this initial explaination of the march 8th date quite worrying.

"*Why 8 March?*
If we achieve our target of vaccinating everyone in the top 4 priority groups, including the most vulnerable, by 15 February, then those groups will have developed immunity from the virus by about three weeks later – that is 8 March."

First of all hooping the top 4 are all done by the 15 is not enough.
Secondly, the top four is not enough, I would have thought all 9 or at the very least 6.
Thirdly, it's only the first shot, it's not going to be a magical cure. 
Fourthly, a vaccinated person can still pass on covid.
The tests are not 100% proof 
Teachers are not being prioritised for a shot.

It's all so premature on too many levels.


----------



## zahir (Mar 2, 2021)

Thread on misleading reporting from the BBC


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 2, 2021)

Just went for a brief walk about the parks. They are full off kids of all ages and parents all flipping mixing and playing together. Soon they will all be back at school with all the kids who have been observing the restrictions. 

What a shit show.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 2, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> My daughter appears to be going in for a test next Tuesday, (and then again for the others at some later date) but will still be remote learning for a few weeks I think. The school seems to be dealing with it as best they can, but so much seems up in the air, and they seems quite aware that the government might change their minds at any point.
> 
> I still find this initial explaination of the march 8th date quite worrying.
> 
> ...



I agree with your post very much generally   , but see the bit of it that I've bolded.
(This is more a of a vaccination threads question really, apologies, but still relevant.)

I'd agree that everyone, the vaccinated very much included, should remain very careful about the risks of passing on the virus.

But I'd also ask : How sure are we yet that vaccination does not serve to reduce transmissabilty?

Is it an established fact that vaccinated people remain just as transmitting as before?

Let's all agree that everyone should err on the side of caution on all this.

But I'd also venture that a lot more data and facts/figures are still needed on that particular 'vaccinated people's transmitting the virus' question? Especially after a second dose?

From what I've read so far (links on here and elsewhere), the issue remains in need of (a lot?) more research before we're _definite_.

As you said though, the school opening date still seems very premature  -- I'm very much with you on that.


----------



## nyxx (Mar 2, 2021)

I’m not sure that point really matters in this context. The research isn’t ready on it yet so basing any plans for reopening schools on it turning out to be good news is just more gambling.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 2, 2021)

nyxx said:


> I’m not sure that point really matters in this context. The research isn’t ready on it yet so basing any plans for reopening schools on it turning out to be good news is just more gambling.



I do agree, and I said so above really -- I did say that everyone needs to be cautious whatever, before all the research is in.

Apologies for the derail element of my post though  -- just thought the question had some relevance.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Mar 3, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Lol, I read this and immediately thought "Temporary Learning Arrangement?" Word salad indeed.
> 
> Sometimes I like to entertain myself by writing internal emails with as many acronyms as possible


Indeed. I was excited, I have to admit, to be invited to a meeting with the T & A department, at a new client. Tunnels and Aqueducts, it turned out


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 3, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Indeed. I was excited, I have to admit, to be invited to a meeting with the T & A department, at a new client. Tunnels and Aqueducts, it turned out



"Are Aqueducts a greater feat of construction than tunnels? Discuss with evidence and examples"

Great school assignment question .....  

Possibly


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 3, 2021)

It's probably already been mentioned, but their school shoes and uniforms don't fit any more and the shops are closed. How are we going to get more?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 3, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> It's probably already been mentioned, but their school shoes and uniforms don't fit any more and the shops are closed. How are we going to get more?


Well, the uniforms'n'haircuts thread should see some interesting action...


----------



## Thora (Mar 3, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> It's probably already been mentioned, but their school shoes and uniforms don't fit any more and the shops are closed. How are we going to get more?


I haven't checked yet, but mine will be wearing whatever clothes they have that fit until the end of this term.


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Well, the uniforms'n'haircuts thread should see some interesting action...



It always takes time to persuade my son  to have a haircut. I'd finally got him to agree to have one last March, but then lockdown.

I'm hoping the school will be putting on a performance of Grizzly Adams, as his hair is perfect for it


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 3, 2021)

nyxx said:


> I’m not sure that point really matters in this context. The research isn’t ready on it yet so basing any plans for reopening schools on it turning out to be good news is just more gambling.


This .
This is the reason I included it. Research shows that they currently don't know in the context of this vaccine, but it is possible to be vaccinated and still carry. Also, this is only shot one, and most people sending their kids to school (with kids of school age) won't have even had that first shot.


----------



## zahir (Mar 3, 2021)

No masks in primary schools.


----------



## zahir (Mar 3, 2021)

Data from the US


----------



## 20Bees (Mar 3, 2021)

Bigger supermarkets have a range of school clothes and they won’t stop you taking children in, though fitting rooms are probably closed. Schools that usually require uniform from their named supplier may be more flexible for the few weeks left of this school year?  Online, or click and collect could be an option?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 3, 2021)

20Bees said:


> Bigger supermarkets have a range of school clothes and they won’t stop you taking children in, though fitting rooms are probably closed. Schools that usually require uniform from their named supplier may be more flexible for the few weeks left of this school year?  Online, or click and collect could be an option?


This shouldn't even be an issue. If it is so important to get children back into school for good reasons (emotional wellbeing, relieving parents of the task of educating/supervising kids, etc), then uniforms are an irrelevance. If we _have_ to hustle kids back into school, just concentrate on that bit, and give them a pass on uniforms and haircuts, etc. 

But I just know we're going to see news stories about kids being singled out in schools for not having proper uniform, or a haircut that breaks their arbitrary rules. And someone will bang on about how it is these things that make all the difference, and that if parents really cared about their kids, they'd find it in themselves to sort it out. Despite whatever else might be going on.

I've seen exactly this kind of thing going on (in a very different context) in schools - they just love to cling onto their pettifogging rules, as if those are the only things that stand between us and the End of Civilisation As We Know It, and perish the thought that they might be relaxed, dropped, or just interpreted pragmatically.


----------



## zahir (Mar 3, 2021)

Thread on desk barriers. Presumably the same arguments will apply in offices, call centres etc.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 3, 2021)

We've moved on to lateral flow tests at school. As well as them being unreliable (false results, need for PCR confirmation) they aren't being made compulsory for staff and, more understandably, we aren't going to be testing the kids.

Smacks of 'looking like we're doing something'. Tbf to the school, it's not down to them. I suspect it's County. But it's a waste of money and does nothing whatsoever to make me feel safe.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 3, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> We've moved on to lateral flow tests at school. As well as them being unreliable (false results, need for PCR confirmation) they aren't being made compulsory for staff and, more understandably, we aren't going to be testing the kids.
> 
> Smacks of 'looking like we're doing something'. Tbf to the school, it's not down to them. I suspect it's County. But it's a waste of money and does nothing whatsoever to make me feel safe.


And the trouble is that, by the time reality has filtered upwards through a couple of layers of management, it's not going to be "_looking like_ we're doing something", but "We're DOING SOMETHING!" and we're back into "kids can't transmit Covid" territory again. Until they do.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 3, 2021)

Listening into daughter's school's presentation about returning to school - God, it's asking a lot of schools, and they're a fairly small school which is better able to cope than most, but oy!


----------



## May Kasahara (Mar 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> This shouldn't even be an issue. If it is so important to get children back into school for good reasons (emotional wellbeing, relieving parents of the task of educating/supervising kids, etc), then uniforms are an irrelevance. If we _have_ to hustle kids back into school, just concentrate on that bit, and give them a pass on uniforms and haircuts, etc.



Sadly, Gavin Williamson's speech to the FED conference on Monday has made it very clear that nurture, wellbeing and support are not relevant considerations as kids come back to schools. Make them behave! Enforce discipline! He really is scum in human form.









						Education Secretary speech to FED National Education Summit
					

Gavin Williamson addresses the Foundation for Education Development (FED) on education and building forward together




					www.gov.uk


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 3, 2021)

William of Wakworth said:
			
		

> (Some TLDR stuff about transmission of virus after vaccination  )






			
				nyxx said:
			
		

> I’m not sure that point really matters in this context. The research isn’t ready on it yet so basing any plans for reopening schools on it turning out to be good news is just more gambling.





ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> This .
> This is the reason I included it. Research shows that they currently don't know in the context of this vaccine, but it is possible to be vaccinated and still carry. Also, this is only shot one, and most people sending their kids to school (with kids of school age) won't have even had that first shot.



Apologies to ATOMIC SUPLEX for over-reacting to your post the other day 

I actually agreed with almost all of it as I said, just took too much issue with one bit.
So I was focussing much too much on one aspect that is much better discussed in one of the vaccination threads 

And you're right just above as well -- very few parents of school-age children will have had their first jab even .......


----------



## existentialist (Mar 4, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Sadly, Gavin Williamson's speech to the FED conference on Monday has made it very clear that nurture, wellbeing and support are not relevant considerations as kids come back to schools. Make them behave! Enforce discipline! He really is scum in human form.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember, when I first saw the photo of the bodies of Mussolini, Petacci, and the others, hanging from that garage roof, wondering how a country could hate its leaders so much as to engage in such bestial violence.

I no longer find myself wondering that now.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 4, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I remember, when I first saw the photo of the bodies of Mussolini, Petacci, and the others, hanging from that garage roof, wondering how a country could hate its leaders so much as to engage in such bestial violence.
> 
> I no longer find myself wondering that now.



What a cunt. Williamson not existentialist . 



> Children learn from each other



Then stop excluding kids in poverty and sending them all to one place where their poor behaviour multiplies because of this you twat.


----------



## gaijingirl (Mar 4, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Sadly, Gavin Williamson's speech to the FED conference on Monday has made it very clear that nurture, wellbeing and support are not relevant considerations as kids come back to schools. Make them behave! Enforce discipline! He really is scum in human form.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



edited


----------



## existentialist (Mar 4, 2021)

One of the best things (there aren't many) of being a grizzled old git is you can look into the bright, shining eyes of the likes of Williamson's acolytes, and say, witheringly, "Really? And you don't think we've been round this block umpteen times before you were even a twinkle in the milkman's eye? It's always failed before, and it will fail again. No really, there's no need to thank me for this advice.""


----------



## May Kasahara (Mar 4, 2021)

gaijingirl I couldn't agree more. Really cannot muster up the words for how much I loathe this inhumane rhetoric, as well as how utterly pointless it is because it doesn't even work! Unless your end goal is creating more misery.

Fuck them.


----------



## zahir (Mar 4, 2021)

Webinar on reopening schools safely.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 4, 2021)

My son is having 3 lateral flow tests before he can go back to school. I was on a call this morning with a woman based in Reading, and she has children at 2 different secondaries. One is going back after 3, like mine, the other is starting back after only two tests. 

Shambolic isn't the word. 

We haven't actually been told officially that our children aren't going back until the 15th - I've just gleaned this from the information they've sent my son!


----------



## nagapie (Mar 4, 2021)

All our kids are coming back next week, a year group per day. So Year 11 Monday and all there by Friday. Have no idea how the testing will run but there's an inset day about it tomorrow. I won't know till Monday though as I don't work Fridays so the unexpected will be fun.


----------



## Epico (Mar 7, 2021)

Covid: Gavin Williamson 'looking at' longer school day and shorter holidays
					

A range of measures are being looked at to help pupils in England catch up, the education secretary says.



					www.bbc.com
				




"Gavin Williamson 'looking at' longer school day and shorter holidays"

Alternatively headline is presumably "UK teachers 'looking at' telling Gavin Williamson to 'eat shit and die'"...


----------



## Indeliblelink (Mar 7, 2021)

Are they going to pay higher wages for longer days and extended term times? At least teachers mostly get paid for holidays and have full time contracts, lots of support staff are on term time only contracts. If the government/schools want them to work more days then they're going to have to increase their pay.


----------



## thismoment (Mar 7, 2021)

exactly this ^^
after all the stress of the pandemic and how the government has managed its response to education they are considering longer school days?! Numbnuts!


----------



## weepiper (Mar 7, 2021)

My 15 year old has been back in three afternoons a week for drama, music and computing only, for a fortnight. He says it's been fine so far, their whole class is in at one time but obviously only some kids from 4th, 5th and 6th year are there so the overall volume is way less than normal. He says everyone is wearing a mask in class pretty much without complaint which is good. My other two (12 and 17) are supposed to be having a phased return from the 15th. The school sent a letter saying that because they're still focussing on the exam year kids' practical assessments they have priority, and given they have to keep 2m distancing until the Easter holidays, in practice this will probably mean they all only have a half day a week in school until then. Then everyone goes back without the 2m rule but still with facemasks in class after Easter.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 9, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Mar 9, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Mar 9, 2021)

Any news from Eton? How is their reopening going?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




I imagine there will be countless stories like this.  The more you test the more you find.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 9, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I imagine there will be countless stories like this.  The more you test the more you find.


Yup. 

So far SisterBadgers has had two staff sent home tested positive. That was before the entered the school or interacted, so testing is helping. However is does not bode well.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Told you so.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Told you so.


Fiddling while Rome burns


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Staff briefing at my school last week:
"We really need to be keeping on top of uniform standards. I know shops haven't been open and some kids may have grown out of their clothes, but still we need to make sure we're enforcing proper uniform."

So he hasn't even got the excuse that he hadn't thought about difficulties kids might be having. He's said right there that he's aware but just doesn't give a shit. He didn't bother to expand further on how teachers enforcing things is supposed to change the material reality of the situation.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 9, 2021)

I don't know where they find these ghouls for head teacher jobs. You'd think somewhere one would slip through the net who saw school uniforms for the demented 19th century anachronism they are but it just never happens. Doesn't bode well for evidence-based practice elsewhere in education tbh.


----------



## elbows (Mar 9, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't know where they find these ghouls for head teacher jobs. You'd think somewhere one would slip through the net who saw school uniforms for the demented 19th century anachronism they are but it just never happens. Doesn't bode well for evidence-based practice elsewhere in education tbh.



Maybe they recognise their role in preparing kids for the wider world. A world where arbitrary authorities figureheads are often inattentive to the real needs of people, being more interested in customs and conformity than actually having the right priorities. The festival of the petty and absurd never stops. Every pupil must come to learn that here we worship at the church of the thinly veneered half-arse, and the pandemic proves this time and time again.


----------



## baldrick (Mar 9, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Staff briefing at my school last week:
> "We really need to be keeping on top of uniform standards. I know shops haven't been open and some kids may have grown out of their clothes, but still we need to make sure we're enforcing proper uniform."
> 
> So he hasn't even got the excuse that he hadn't thought about difficulties kids might be having. He's said right there that he's aware but just doesn't give a shit. He didn't bother to expand further on how teachers enforcing things is supposed to change the material reality of the situation.


I don't understand why you would even do that job if you think petty bullshit like that matters in these circumstances. Uniform isn't on anyone's radar at my school except where it might indicate families are struggling to provide suitable clothes. We have a kid whose family are refugees starting on Monday, his parents were worried about uniform, bless them. We gave them a blazer and a tie and said don't worry about the rest of it. I can't imagine why any school would be doing anything else right now.

Our staff briefing was basically an hour of pastoral stuff - encouraging everyone to always use positive language about kids learning despite what they may or may not have achieved over lockdown, what we might be doing about Y11 & Y13 mocks and finally to get everyone in the mood a full briefing of all the many safeguarding issues our children have experienced since we were last in the building. Sometimes I feel really really lucky to be working where I do.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 9, 2021)

baldrick said:


> I don't understand why you would even do that job if you think petty bullshit like that matters in these circumstances. Uniform isn't on anyone's radar at my school except where it might indicate families are struggling to provide suitable clothes. We have a kid whose family are refugees starting on Monday, his parents were worried about uniform, bless them. We gave them a blazer and a tie and said don't worry about the rest of it. I can't imagine why any school would be doing anything else right now.
> 
> Our staff briefing was basically an hour of pastoral stuff - encouraging everyone to always use positive language about kids learning despite what they may or may not have achieved over lockdown, what we might be doing about Y11 & Y13 mocks and finally to get everyone in the mood a full briefing of all the many safeguarding issues our children have experienced since we were last in the building. Sometimes I feel really really lucky to be working where I do.



In general my school is great at looking after kids. Support might be a bit ham-fisted in places but the genuine concern for wellbeing is there in spades. Which only makes the uniform stuff even harder to grasp.


----------



## nagapie (Mar 9, 2021)

We've been told to be sure to issue yellow tickets for uniform


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## William of Walworth (Mar 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> We've been told to be sure to issue *yellow tickets* for uniform



Are those equivalent to a a telling-off?


----------



## miss direct (Mar 9, 2021)

It was yellow slips at my school in the 90s. The fear. Something to do with yellow cards and red cards.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 9, 2021)

Fucking hell, that's all mental. When we got told that Patrick was going to be in school three afternoons a week the school specifically told us 'they don't have to wear uniform'.


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## William of Walworth (Mar 10, 2021)

miss direct said:


> It was yellow slips at my school in the 90s. The fear. *Something to do with yellow cards and red cards*.



Those hadn't yet departed from the football pitch when I was at school .... a longer time ago than you!


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

miss direct said:


> It was yellow slips at my school in the 90s. The fear. Something to do with yellow cards and red cards.


It was Saturday detentions in my school. So, given my lifelong hunt for windmills to tilt at, I responded with defiance to the restrictions (not that I had any choice - I wore the shoes my mother gave me to wear, and her interpretations of the uniform code might be best described as "creative"), and then defied authority by refusing to attend the Saturday detentions. They (eventually) gave up, but it was a miserable few years. And no, I didn't tell them my mum chose my shoes - bit too much shame in there for that.

Which is probably why I get particularly exercised when I see, FORTY FUCKING YEARS LATER, that schools are still, essentially, bullying pupils who may have no choice or option as to what they are wearing to school.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 10, 2021)

I managed to dodge most of this as  my secondary had no uniform.  My primary had no uniform for a while  but  when it  did  come in they  made  it  super lax.  dark bottoms, white shirt, red jumper. No specific styles  or manufacturers. Also you didn't have to wear the jumper if you don't want to and shorts were fine in the summer (possibly winter too but this was before  I realised I could do that).


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 10, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Staff briefing at my school last week:
> "We really need to be keeping on top of uniform standards. I know shops haven't been open and some kids may have grown out of their clothes, but still we need to make sure we're enforcing proper uniform."
> 
> So he hasn't even got the excuse that he hadn't thought about difficulties kids might be having. He's said right there that he's aware but just doesn't give a shit. He didn't bother to expand further on how teachers enforcing things is supposed to change the material reality of the situation.


They claim uniforms prepare you for work  but if  this happened at work you  would be having a pointed meeting with HR and your union rep.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> They claim uniforms prepare you for work  but if  this happened at work you  would be having a pointed meeting with HR and your union rep.


They're right, in a way. In the sense that forcing children to accept pettifogging and pointless rules as the norm is the perfect education for the kind of workforce our governments want - compliant, beaten-down, frightened people forced to conform to arbitrary rules, and constantly reminded that there's plenty of people out there who'd love their job..."oh, and have you see what it's like claiming benefits these days? You wouldn't want to find yourself there, now, would you?"

Not to mention that shovelling them back into school with indecent haste, during a pandemic , is an ideal preparation for their likely experiences in the workplace when it comes to other health and safety issues. They will only have to look at their teachers to see how that pans out...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 10, 2021)

Cheerful thoughts eh?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 10, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Cheerful thoughts eh?



Yeah I'm trying to be cheerful around the kids today. To be fair it is good to see them back. They're making less fuss than the adults around here. A good crowd, all things considered.


----------



## nagapie (Mar 10, 2021)

Two Year 11 students already sent home this week as positive on lateral flow tests. Doesn't bode well.


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 12, 2021)

My son's school did 1000 tests with not one positive result.

My daughters go to a different school and had one positive test. But that person didn't go into the school itself so others in their year haven't been sent home


----------



## cybershot (Mar 12, 2021)

Ditto. My school teacher friend says no positive tests all week.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

My son's school are all back next week. We got a letter from the head and his head of house recorded a virtual assembly. It made me feel a bit teary tbh 

Can I ask how many masks your children are getting through in a day? I don't want to go down the disposable route but I'm not sure I can keep up with the laundry if he needs 5 a day or something


----------



## nagapie (Mar 12, 2021)

2 a day is fine.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Mar 13, 2021)

To be fair this is not representative of my sister's school. She said that approx 50-60% of parents on the school run had masks on. 

That said her school have put up signs up and down the road enforcing mask wearing


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 13, 2021)

I didn't notice anyone not wearing a mask at my daughter's primary. It's likely there were some, and one day I forgot mine, and it's a small school. But I think everyone wants to support the school as much as possible to keep the children in school; my daughter seems like a different child this week.


----------



## Thora (Mar 13, 2021)

I'd say its pretty much 100% mask wearing from parents at both my kids' schools.


----------



## nagapie (Mar 13, 2021)

Masks at all the schools the kids and I go to.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Mar 13, 2021)

When I pick up my son from school about 80% of parents are wearing masks. At the school Mrs B works at not one parent wears a mask


----------



## Cloo (Mar 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



TBH, I think that kind of comment is a bit stupid. Maybe it was a bit of a crowd, but it was outdoors and not for long. It is among the many sorts of things that people say 'oooh it's going to cause the next wave' about when it isn't.

DH's son's school has said masks in grounds are mandatory, which I find a bit silly, but I'm not going to argue with. When I go for son there's actually hardly anyone there as most of his classmates are now walking home (as will he, with a classmate who lives on our street, after Easter hols) - I guess it might be different when younger classes come out and all the parents are there.


----------



## zahir (Mar 20, 2021)

Probably no great surprises here.


----------



## zahir (Mar 20, 2021)

Another thread on rising cases.


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2021)

kid1's college are being above-and-beyond cunts about exams 

on friday they "unofficially" announced that they're cancelling the open book/coursework final assessment they had previously outlined for A levels. instead they're now doing "closed book timed assessments" in class. i.e. exams. with THREE WEEKS fucking notice.

and the cunts can't even be bothered to comment on these unofficial communications - final details not to be announced until next wednesday.

cunts cunts cunts cunts cunts


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2021)

wayward bob said:


> kid1's college are being above-and-beyond cunts about exams
> 
> on friday they "unofficially" announced that they're cancelling the open book/coursework final assessment they had previously outlined for A levels. instead they're now doing "closed book timed assessments" in class. i.e. exams. with THREE WEEKS fucking notice.
> 
> ...



DfE and exam boards are moving the goalposts all over the place at the moment, which could be a factor. Doesn't excuse shit communication from the college or lack of acknowledgement of the impact on students of course.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2021)

I dunno about A levels but GCSE assessment guidelines only came out last week I think. Schools have then been given very little time to cobble together assessment processes and communicate them to students and parents. In our department we had a 15 minute meeting in which to decide how to set GCSE grades.

It's a shit show for all parties, but it's the kids I feel for most of all. They've been thrown under the bus time and time again in the past year.


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2021)

to temper my earlier temper i get that everyone's doing difficult jobs in difficult times. and kid1 is frustrated but otherwise pretty calm about the whole thing. at least an end to something is still in sight.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 22, 2021)

First load of kids from my son's school sent home today after one of them tested positive


----------



## thismoment (Mar 22, 2021)

Yep same here today q


----------



## trashpony (Mar 24, 2021)

And another one today in my son's year. I predict it is unlikely he'll be in school until Easter


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 24, 2021)

Still no positive tests at son's school. 

Not sure about the girls' school. They are self testing rather than it being done centrally. I haven't heard of any positive tests and their years are still all in


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 26, 2021)

Today's fun fact: in a year when teachers are expected to both set and mark GCSE and A level assessment tests themselves with no extra pay for their trouble, the exam boards have seen fit to put their prices up. Even though all they're doing for their money is rubber stamping other people's work.


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 27, 2021)

Three weeks back and we (Lambeth comp) have had no positive cases yet.

lots of other things are awful though.  Year 11 are working very poorly when compared with year 10, and year nine have had the biggest skills setback.  It has shocked me.  They won’t talk to each other about work, won’t stand up to rehearse - they don’t even want to play warm-up games like Splat or Tag.  It’s really shocking and very sad and worrying.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 27, 2021)

In my building  less that 2 dozen since September 2020.
Majority students  but some staff as well.

Many more cases in other building around london.


----------



## nagapie (Mar 27, 2021)

We've had a few cases picked up on lateral flow tests, even one declared since students started testing from home.
Seeing the same as spanglechick , massive regressions in students. Both academically and socially. And those with additional needs really struggling to reintegrate and learn. Sadly little from the upper echelons to reduce the impact and stress this has had on staff and students, just piling on the extra duties for staff and the sanctions for students; some are getting detention every day already for minor infringements.


----------



## maomao (Mar 27, 2021)

We've had one positive test (a student) and a whole class sent home till after Easter. It's a very cold and airy school though and really quite strict about masks and bubbles so one positive hopefully doesn't mean more. 

I don't have a benchmark for regression not having done this pre-covid but the kids in my classes seem to be happy to be back.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 27, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Three weeks back and we (Lambeth comp) have had no positive cases yet.
> 
> lots of other things are awful though.  Year 11 are working very poorly when compared with year 10, and year nine have had the biggest skills setback.  It has shocked me.  They won’t talk to each other about work, won’t stand up to rehearse - they don’t even want to play warm-up games like Splat or Tag.  It’s really shocking and very sad and worrying.




A year's a very long time. My R has struggled going back to school although more or less happy to be there but she's anxious about her work. She thinks she hasn't made any progress in art, and she hasn't, because she needs to be taught and supported in a hands on way, it's really knocked her confidence, she thinks she can't do it.


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 13, 2021)

somewhat behind the curve but school & college are finally both back \o/ 

kid2 reckons the bullying kids were less aggro yesterday, keener to make friends. guess absence really can make the heart grow fonder. and ditto, it's lovely to be back to something closer to normal service, asking how their day was and not already knowing the answer


----------



## Badgers (Apr 24, 2021)

Not seen this latest 'leak'


----------



## Badgers (Apr 24, 2021)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Not seen this latest 'leak'



Some of the replies, Christ on a bike.
"You're not a real scientist"


----------



## zahir (Apr 27, 2021)

Thread on testing in schools


----------



## elbows (Apr 28, 2021)

zahir said:


> Thread on testing in schools




Its a shame that Guardian article they start with didnt put this into the context of the MHRA and the government being at odds over this before - the government always wanted to recklessly stretch that sort of testing in that sort of direction previously, but that time the MHRA nixed it by saying such tests were not licensed for that particular use. And I think it was the Guardian that reported on that at the time, though I dont have a link to that era of story to hand.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 30, 2021)

The assessment regime for GCSEs and A levels here is slowly killing the staff and kids both. The teachers are spending every spare second going through exam papers, and the kids have got 2 - 4 tests that are effectively final exams every day, on top of revision. Smart, capable, organised people are melting down in public, it's awful.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The assessment regime for GCSEs and A levels here is slowly killing the staff and kids both. The teachers are spending every spare second going through exam papers, and the kids have got 2 - 4 tests that are effectively final exams every day, on top of revision. Smart, capable, organised people are melting down in public, it's awful.



Yes. I'm too exhausted to write more as this is me right now, but yes. It's horrible.


----------



## miss direct (May 1, 2021)

So does anyone remember that I quit my job in a school before even starting properly, mainly due to feeling unsafe? This is the school: sorry for daily mail link  but if I find another ill share it. Feel really justified now! 








						Schoolgirl is suing school for 'requiring' pupils to wear face masks
					

The 12-year-old pupil is suing the Tapton Academy School Trust, which runs a number of primary and secondary schools in the Sheffield area, to stop it from 'requiring' children to wear masks at school.




					mol.im


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 1, 2021)

miss direct said:


> So does anyone remember that I quit my job in a school before even starting properly, mainly due to feeling unsafe? This is the school: sorry for daily mail link  but if I find another ill share it. Feel really justified now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There aren't enough facepalms in the world.


----------



## Mattym (May 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The assessment regime for GCSEs and A levels here is slowly killing the staff and kids both. The teachers are spending every spare second going through exam papers, and the kids have got 2 - 4 tests that are effectively final exams every day, on top of revision. Smart, capable, organised people are melting down in public, it's awful.



Yes- you're so right, Frank. It's a really stressful time for pupils and teachers and I am often waking up at stupid o'clock at the moment with it occupying my mind.


----------



## Mattym (May 1, 2021)

miss direct said:


> So does anyone remember that I quit my job in a school before even starting properly, mainly due to feeling unsafe? This is the school: sorry for daily mail link  but if I find another ill share it. Feel really justified now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Either my childhood secondary school or within its MAT.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 1, 2021)

"Schoolgirl's parents are suing school"


----------



## miss direct (May 1, 2021)

It's part of a trust but I'd be willing to bet it's the school I was in. That attitude is worryingly common there and I got that sense going in even before schools were back properly in early March.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2021)

miss direct said:


> So does anyone remember that I quit my job in a school before even starting properly, mainly due to feeling unsafe? This is the school: sorry for daily mail link  but if I find another ill share it. Feel really justified now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Schoolgirl my foot, that's some dickhead parents using their kid as a sock puppet.

Funny how these people hate schools so much but still send their kids in every day.


----------



## oryx (May 1, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Schoolgirl's parents are suing school"





SpookyFrank said:


> Schoolgirl my foot, that's some dickhead parents using their kid as a sock puppet.
> 
> Funny how these people hate schools so much but still send their kids in every day.



Yes, as soon as I read it I thought 'no way is that the 12 year old, it's the parents'!


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2021)

A strange coincidence also that 100% of the children of anti-mask covidiots happen to have legitimate medical conditions which make them unable to wear masks.

Schools can't force anyone to wear a mask. It's a bone of contention for many school staff but I begrudgingly accept it,  given that the alternative is making people disclose health information they shouldn't ever have to disclose in order to get an 'official' exemption. But the people who exploit that honesty-box system because they just don't like the idea of masks, eugh. Nobody likes the fucking masks. But most people wear them anyway because they have some concept of the needs and rights of people other than themselves.

Of course the family in the news story above know perfectly well that the school and/or trust is not forcing their kid to wear a mask, hence the unwieldy phrase about 'requiring or encouraging'.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 1, 2021)

Worth adding here that in my experience kids are _far_ better at wearing their masks when expected to without making a fuss about it than adults. And kids make a fuss about everything else under the sun. They moan relentlessly about being asked to tuck their shirts in. Obviously they are capable of discerning that while tucking your shirt in serves no purpose, fucking off this virus in whatever way we can is a purpose bigger than anything else happening in their lives or anyone else's right now.

They do make me proud, the little bastards. Proud of my species.


----------



## elbows (May 6, 2021)

My old school (where I was a pupil) closed for a deep clean for a few days at the end of last week, after a bunch of cases.

But thats nothing compared to the following one, quite the outbreak there it seems:









						Covid-19: Wilsthorpe School shut after more than 100 test positive
					

After initially closing for two days, the school will remain shut until after the weekend.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## oryx (May 6, 2021)

Anti-mask girl lost her case:



> "Put shortly, the underlying premise of the claim is that the physical and psychological risks presented to children by the requirement to wear face masks is not justified by medical or epidemiological evidence," the judge said.
> He accepted it was a belief which was strongly held by many people, *including the girl's father*.


 (My bold).









						Face masks in schools: Schoolgirl loses court fight
					

She had claimed face masks risked causing "serious harm" to pupils' physical and mental health.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## BigMoaner (May 6, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There aren't enough facepalms in the world.


it actually disgusts me.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 6, 2021)

how many *people have actually got to die* for people like her dad to see it has got absoloutly fuck all to do with anything other than keeping people safe?


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

There are still suggestions in the media that the government are going to ditch the masks in classrooms side of things.


----------



## Badgers (May 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> There are still suggestions in the media that the government are going to ditch the masks in classrooms side of things.


Yup. Leaked to the Telegraph as another 'gauge public opinion'


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> There are still suggestions in the media that the government are going to ditch the masks in classrooms side of things.



Yes we're expecting another pronouncement in the near future, which will involve rewriting the timetable at short notice _again _right when everyone is burnt the fuck out from the endless assessments for GCSE and A levels. Many teaching staff remain unvaccinated of course. Nearby schools have had covid cases in the past week.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 7, 2021)

Also we've been told not to discuss any possible changes with the kids. Better that they hear it from leaks to the press than from us I suppose


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 11, 2021)

Ok, so it looks like no more masks and back to normal classrooms next week. 

Lucky teachers have so much free time at the moment to re-plan everything accordingly.


----------



## gaijingirl (May 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Ok, so it looks like no more masks and back to normal classrooms next week.
> 
> Lucky teachers have so much free time at the moment to re-plan everything accordingly.



I think that we still have to have bubbles etc - it's just the face masks that are changing for now.

The updated guidance still states "The overarching principle to apply is reducing the number of contacts between pupils and staff. This can be achieved through keeping groups separate (in ‘bubbles’) and through maintaining distance between individuals."



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/985138/10_May_Schools_Guidance.pdf


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 11, 2021)

gaijingirl said:


> I think that we still have to have bubbles etc - it's just the face masks that are changing for now.
> 
> The updated guidance still states "The overarching principle to apply is reducing the number of contacts between pupils and staff. This can be achieved through keeping groups separate (in ‘bubbles’) and through maintaining distance between individuals."
> 
> ...



Yes current line at our school is they're not changing the bubble setup but there could easily be a volte-face on that from the DfE before the weeks is out.


----------



## gaijingirl (May 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes current line at our school is they're not changing the bubble setup but there could easily be a volte-face on that from the DfE before the weeks is out.



Even if guidance changes (and I'm not sure it will - but then again - why not just drop in one more last-minute change to the plans for us to deal with?) our school would not change until after half-term when year 11/13 have gone.  Everything is focused on those two year groups right now.


----------



## Badgers (May 13, 2021)




----------



## zahir (Jun 17, 2021)

Thread on daily contact testing trials


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 18, 2021)

We've had about 20% of one year group and several staff sent home due to covid contacts this week. Most other schools in the area are dealing with similar or worse. 

Kids are still not wearing masks. Staff are increasingly abandoning them too, and you can't entirely blame them as it does feel like a bit of a joke when you're surrounded by unvaccinated, maskless humans all day. 

This all renders the year group bubbles largely moot, as staff move between bubbles constantly. 

Nothing that's happening makes any sense. Kids ask me perfectly sensible questions about how any of this is supposed to work and I have nothing to tell them.


----------



## thismoment (Jun 19, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> We've had about 20% of one year group and several staff sent home due to covid contacts this week. Most other schools in the area are dealing with similar or worse.
> 
> Kids are still not wearing masks. Staff are increasingly abandoning them too, and you can't entirely blame them as it does feel like a bit of a joke when you're surrounded by unvaccinated, maskless humans all day.
> 
> ...


Mask are increasingly becoming worn haphazardly at my school too by adults. Had children have to isolate today for the first time in ages. I don’t know…


----------



## zahir (Jun 20, 2021)

Delta variant 'out of control' in Greater Manchester schools says union
					

Entire year groups have been sent home from some high schools




					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 21, 2021)

March, April, May there were no detected cases in schools near me. Now every school in the area has kids and staff isolating, whole year groups in some cases. We just today got everyone back in from last week's isolations but another 50-odd kids and staff have been sent home today.

Staffing levels are precarious. The staffroom consensus is it's odds on that the whole place will be closed before the end of term. Proper teaching is being abandoned in favour of busy work on the grounds that it's not fair to teach half a class and not the other. Provision for those at home is almost nil, it being impossible to teach full time and provide stuff for remote learning.

Grim, is what it is.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> March, April, May there were no detected cases in schools near me. Now every school in the area has kids and staff isolating, whole year groups in some cases. We just today got everyone back in from last week's isolations but another 50-odd kids and staff have been sent home today.
> 
> Staffing levels are precarious. The staffroom consensus is it's odds on that the whole place will be closed before the end of term. Proper teaching is being abandoned in favour of busy work on the grounds that it's not fair to teach half a class and not the other. Provision for those at home is almost nil, it being impossible to teach full time and provide stuff for remote learning.
> 
> Grim, is what it is.


The whole thing has "reactive management" written all over it. It's like watching the inevitable toppling of a house of cards, as card (protection) after card is carefully removed, or never implemented in the first place.

I'm just completely appalled at the way government has managed to twist and bend its desired outcomes - schools remaining open, in this case - into a kind of parody of the science, which they have to equally twist and bend in order to achieve any kind of rough fit, the gap being filled in by blatant denialism. It's so fucking depressing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 21, 2021)

existentialist said:


> The whole thing has "reactive management" written all over it. It's like watching the inevitable toppling of a house of cards, as card (protection) after card is carefully removed, or never implemented in the first place.
> 
> I'm just completely appalled at the way government has managed to twist and bend its desired outcomes - schools remaining open, in this case - into a kind of parody of the science, which they have to equally twist and bend in order to achieve any kind of rough fit, the gap being filled in by blatant denialism. It's so fucking depressing.



What we currently have is neither one thing nor the other; neither functional schools nor effective control of case numbers. This is the sort of shit you get from risk-assessment, arse-covering type management strategies.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> What we currently have is neither one thing nor the other; neither functional schools nor effective control of case numbers. This is the sort of shit you get from risk-assessment, arse-covering type management strategies.


And an obsessive desire to keep schools open at any cost. Perfect storm.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 21, 2021)

A couple of weeks ago we had a positive case in the lower sixth and had to send a quarter of them home to isolate.  They returned on Friday.  Halfway through today one of those kids - who had been coughing all weekend but still went to a party and to school today - thought she’d better do a LFT and tested positive.  Cue a quarter of the lower sixth (about two thirds of whom were in the last batch) heading home to isolate.  Again.  We also lost about 20 year nines today.  

We’ve had to cancel 6th form induction week, the year 11 leavers’ BBQ, and next week’s year 13 transitions week, and _their_ party/prizegiving.  All too risky.


----------



## baldrick (Jun 21, 2021)

Are your kids bothering with LFTs now? We have stacks of them in school but they're not being taken home by kids any more in anywhere near the numbers they used to. I think once they were allowed not to bother with masks they don't really see the point. We've had parents phone up to say they don't need the LFTs and not to give them to their kids to take.

On the other hand we have pop up vaccine centres and surge testing in the community here. The message is so confused


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 22, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Are your kids bothering with LFTs now? We have stacks of them in school but they're not being taken home by kids any more in anywhere near the numbers they used to. I think once they were allowed not to bother with masks they don't really see the point. We've had parents phone up to say they don't need the LFTs and not to give them to their kids to take.
> 
> On the other hand we have pop up vaccine centres and surge testing in the community here. The message is so confused



We handed out a new batch yesterday. The kids all took them. The cases identified so far have all been from LFT results, not symptoms, so some of them must be using the tests.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 22, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> A couple of weeks ago we had a positive case in the lower sixth and had to send a quarter of them home to isolate.  They returned on Friday.  Halfway through today one of those kids - who had been coughing all weekend but still went to a party and to school today - thought she’d better do a LFT and tested positive.  Cue a quarter of the lower sixth (about two thirds of whom were in the last batch) heading home to isolate.  Again.  We also lost about 20 year nines today.
> 
> We’ve had to cancel 6th form induction week, the year 11 leavers’ BBQ, and next week’s year 13 transitions week, and _their_ party/prizegiving.  All too risky.



Similar here. One positive test wasn't reported for days so the ten day isolation period for contacts was already half over.

Three year groups affected now. 

This has all given me a glimpse of what sensible class sizes could look like though, especially for practical science stuff. It's the difference between crowd control and actually teaching.


----------



## May Kasahara (Jun 22, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Are your kids bothering with LFTs now? We have stacks of them in school but they're not being taken home by kids any more in anywhere near the numbers they used to. I think once they were allowed not to bother with masks they don't really see the point. We've had parents phone up to say they don't need the LFTs and not to give them to their kids to take.
> 
> On the other hand we have pop up vaccine centres and surge testing in the community here. The message is so confused


Mine certainly does, because I make him.


----------



## Winot (Jun 22, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Mine certainly does, because I make him.


Ditto. We are all taking them 1/2 times a week.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jun 22, 2021)

Nearly 250,000 pupils missed school in England last week for Covid-related reasons, DfE figures show​Richard Adams
Nearly 250,000 children in England missed school last week for Covid-related reasons, including 9,000 with confirmed cases of Covid-19, the worst figures since state schools fully reopened in March.
The weekly attendance figures published by the Department for Education (DfE) found that Covid-related absences from secondary schools tripled in the space of seven days between 10 June and 17 June when it surveyed schools, while the rate of absences in primary schools has doubled.
There were 9,000 confirmed cases among state school pupils last week, compared with 7,000 the week before and just 4,000 at the end of May.
The DfE’s figures have been adjusted to exclude pupils in years 11 and 13 who have finished school for the year, leaving 3.3% absent overall.
The biggest rise was in the number of pupils self-isolating because of Covid case contacts within schools: 172,000 according to the DfE, while a further 42,000 were self-isolating because of contacts outside school, and 16,000 were off with unconfirmed cases.

(eta - from The Guardian feed)


The removal of masks in schools just makes absolutely no sense - I really can't see how this is anything but a _deliberate_ attempt to spread it amongst kids now/'herd immunity' amongst the unvaccinated under-18's. It's fucking despicable, on every level.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 22, 2021)

Quarter of a million children in England missed school last week due to Covid btw


----------



## thismoment (Jun 23, 2021)

Dr Rosemary Leonard on BBC news earlier making a passionate plea about children’s lives returning to normal because of the impact of the pandemic on their mental health and the up to a year waiting list for children’s mental health services. 
I heard her give examples of school children having to repeatedly self isolate because of covid cases almost consecutively. 

But i didn’t get a chance to listen to all of it. So I don’t know if she made a suggestion as to what else to do with children and the need to have to self isolate. Any else watch this?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 23, 2021)

Did anyone see on Friday night (obvs) schools were told this:








						Covid: Schools told to plan for more remote learning
					

Department for Education also asks schools to draw up plans to bring back virus testing sites and reintroduce face masks




					www.tes.com


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 23, 2021)

thismoment said:


> Dr Rosemary Leonard on BBC news earlier making a passionate plea about children’s lives returning to normal because of the impact of the pandemic on their mental health and the up to a year waiting list for children’s mental health services.
> I heard her give examples of school children having to repeatedly self isolate because of covid cases almost consecutively.
> 
> But i didn’t get a chance to listen to all of it. So I don’t know if she made a suggestion as to what else to do with children and the need to have to self isolate. Any else watch this?



I didn't watch that, but I concur. 12-month waiting list at our CAMHS clinic, doubled since over the past year, massive and unsustainable rise in referrals and calls to duty. My own children have suffered worsening mental health and their learning, confidence in the learning has really taken a knock and they've not had to isolate since end of last school lockdown.


----------



## mr steev (Jun 23, 2021)

The whole of year 7 have been sent home to isolate from my daughters school this morning - 3 positive cases in her class alone as of today, yet they were all suposed to test themselves every Sunday


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 23, 2021)

Oh look, it's happening again. Who could possibly have predicted it, nothing we could have done etc etc.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 23, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Oh look, it's happening again. Who could possibly have predicted it, nothing we could have done etc etc.


Shocked. Shocked I tell you


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 23, 2021)

Next school over is now closed altogether due to too many staff out isolating. We're maybe one more case away from a simillar fate.


----------



## elbows (Jun 23, 2021)

This BBC article looks at things mostly from the perspective of getting rid of the disruption by changing the rules about self-isolation etc. They manage to mention the government-led trial without even mentioning lateral flow tests. They do acknowledge that the trial results wont come in time to change things this school year. Its certainly clear that authorities would like trial results to demonstrate that school infection just reflect the wider community infections, rather than being one of the important cause of the wider community spread. Because in articles like this one they already find it easy to avoid talking about the physical health of children, so if they can add 'the school outbreaks arent a big driver of waves' to that mix then they will find it easier to rush back to a business as usual approach for schools, without as much outbreak-related disruption. This is surely part of the plan for 'learning to live with covid' that they will likely want in place by the start of the next school year. Whether they will actually manage to pull that off remains to be seen.









						Should schoolchildren still have to self-isolate?
					

More than a quarter of a million children are absent from school in the UK because of coronavirus.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 23, 2021)

Daughter just rang me (obviously with a staff member) to ask permission to go home as someone in her class has or potentially has COVID. Seems daft keeping schools open now, just send them home until September.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 23, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Daughter just rang me (obviously with a staff member) to ask permission to go home as someone in her class has or potentially has COVID. Seems daft keeping schools open now, just send them home until September.


Nah, they'll stagger along until end of term, or just before, thus infecting as many as possible before abruptly deciding to shut the whole lot down. Why change a winning formula?


----------



## thismoment (Jun 23, 2021)

thismoment said:


> Mask are increasingly becoming worn haphazardly at my school too by adults. Had children have to isolate today for the first time in ages. I don’t know…



Another bunch of students sent home today.

 It’s so bizarre to read about football
VIPs from amber list countries having permission to come to the UK and not have to quarantine and yet it seems like the rate of students been sent home to self isolate is increasing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 23, 2021)

I've got an interview on Monday, at a school that's on course to be shut by then. Luckily I've already worked there so the 'tour the place and meet people' bit is pretty redundant anyway but the 'teach a lesson' and 'meet the kids' bit really aren't.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 23, 2021)

thismoment said:


> Dr Rosemary Leonard on BBC news earlier making a passionate plea about children’s lives returning to normal because of the impact of the pandemic on their mental health and the up to a year waiting list for children’s mental health services.
> I heard her give examples of school children having to repeatedly self isolate because of covid cases almost consecutively.
> 
> But i didn’t get a chance to listen to all of it. So I don’t know if she made a suggestion as to what else to do with children and the need to have to self isolate. Any else watch this?


Yes. Her thesis was basically "we need to stop being so scared of Covid". In those exact words.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 23, 2021)

Endless, endless waving of "children's mental health" as if MH care in this country was not already thoroughly fucked for children, adults, everyone, far before the pandemic, and if it wasn't just just a transparent talking point for the "open everything up now" position.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 23, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Endless, endless waving of "children's mental health" as if MH care in this country was not already thoroughly fucked for children, adults, everyone, far before the pandemic, and if it wasn't just just a transparent talking point for the "open everything up now" position.



But there has been a huge amplification of existing mental health difficulties and a doubling of referrals and waiting times _is_ an unmanageable situation.


----------



## l'Otters (Jun 23, 2021)

I think the point is not that there isn’t a problem, rather those making a noise about it DGAF about it, they didn’t pretend to prior to 2020/21 and they don’t genuinely give a flying fuck about the state of children’s mental health now.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 23, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> I think the point is not that there isn’t a problem, rather those making a noise about it DGAF about it, they didn’t pretend to prior to 2020/21 and they don’t genuinely give a flying fuck about the state of children’s mental health now.



Sure, I understand that but in a way so what? We know that already. But there is also the reality of camhs in crisis.


----------



## l'Otters (Jun 24, 2021)

Are you under the impression that these people decrying these effects now will somehow translate to increased resources to address the problem?
That their motivations for highlighting this issue are that they want to make sure the children get the support and treatment they need?

I’ll admit right now I’d be surprised at the credulity at believing those things.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 24, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> Are you under the impression that these people decrying these effects now will somehow translate to increased resources to address the problem?
> That their motivations for highlighting this issue are that they want to make sure the children get the support and treatment they need?
> 
> I’ll admit right now I’d be surprised at the credulity at believing those things.



If you've read that into what I've written that says more about you than about me. A conversation, rather than a wish to appear right by attempting to patronise me, might go something like, ah you work in CAMHS,  you might have some experience in this area, sounds like it must be really tough right now. What do you think the right thing to do is re. schools and isolation? And I would say, I don't know, but it seems clearer that we're talking about a balance of harms here, and the current situation seems unsustainable. I know it's not urban not to know, but as most of us are middle-aged these days,  it would be a better place for it.



.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 24, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> But there has been a huge amplification of existing mental health difficulties and a doubling of referrals and waiting times _is_ an unmanageable situation.


Yes, which makes it all the hypocrisy and lies and exploitation and gaslighting about the previous state even more frustrating.

It's no different to their attitude towards the rest of the NHS I suppose, or... well pretty much everything. If you could run things on crocodile tears the country would be booming.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 24, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes, which makes it all the hypocrisy and lies and exploitation and gaslighting about the previous state even more frustrating.
> 
> It's no different to their attitude towards the rest of the NHS I suppose, or... well pretty much everything. If you could run things on crocodile tears the country would be booming.



I don't pay any attention to them, we know that they lie. That still leaves questions about balance of harms in the context that we have not as we would wish it to be.


----------



## l'Otters (Jun 24, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> If you've read that into what I've written that says more about you than about me. A conversation, rather than a wish to appear right by attempting to patronise me, might go something like, ah you work in CAMHS,  you might have some experience in this area, sounds like it must be really tough right now. What do you think the right thing to do is re. schools and isolation? And I would say, I don't know, but it seems clearer that we're talking about a balance of harms here, and the current situation seems unsustainable. I know it's not urban not to know, but as most of us are middle-aged these days,  it would be a better place for it.
> 
> 
> 
> .


You should go ahead and have that discussion. 
With some awareness of how this situation is being misused and to what ends. “so what” didn’t read like an adequate acknowledgment of this backdrop.


----------



## Sue (Jun 24, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> You should go ahead and have that discussion.
> With some awareness of how this situation is being misused and to what ends. “so what” didn’t read like an adequate acknowledgment of this backdrop.


Christ. That's the most patronising thing I've read on here in quite some time.


----------



## l'Otters (Jun 24, 2021)

What’s the problem? Red cat seems to want to have a discussion of something - and somehow felt I was stopping it - which I’m not, and apparently that needs spelling out. 

As someone who has been supporting people who need support from the nhs mental health services, and have needed them myself, I’m fucking sick of seeing our situation weaponised, presented as a reason to end all lockdown measures, by people who didn’t give us a second thought until spring 2020. It bears slightly more acknowledgment than “so what”. 

So, what’s to be done about the state of camhs, halfway through 2021?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 24, 2021)

I work _right_ on the interface between these two entitles, and what I see is a mental health system that has been not just brought to its knees, but kept there, indefinitely, for as long as I have had anything to do with mental health (which, at 30 years and counting, is far too fucking long).

Most of the people I meet in the field, both in my own field of counselling, and amongst my counterparts in the mainstream mental health services, are fabulous, wonderful, committed, lovely people who got into it because they cared. The tragedy of the situation is that these people are forced into a system that has, by virtue of its acute shortage of resources, to try to find reasons why _not_ to treat people, rather than focus on how they could. And that's damaging and dangerous, both for the people involved, and for the potential patients.

Under the umbrella of the organisation I work for, we have an eating disorder service. We try, within the constraints of our funding, to operate a system which doesn't have the institutional cliff edges of S-CAMHS (the NHS eating disorder service) - we don't boot our clients out on their 18th birthday, to a notional - but functionally non-existent - adult eating disorder service, nor do we operate the rigid BMI criteria applicable in NHS offerings. Because life isn't like that - people don't stop having eating disorders when they hit 18, or because they've got their BMI above 17. And nobody working in specialist CAMHS thinks so, either - but they're bound by a system which forces them to justify dropping clients - many still in need - because it's beyond their control.

CAMHS needs funding commensurate with the demands placed on it. You don't reduce demand by reducing funding, and there is a LOT of need out there. There was a lot before Covid - but I think there has been a step jump in need through the lockdowns (and we're seeing that coming through in spades in our adult general counselling service). The platitudes of Government, and the desperate attempts to square the circle at the coalface are no longer going to mix metaphors, or paper over the cracks.

If ever there was a service that needed money throwing at it, it's CAMHS. Novel though it may seem, investing in child mental health IS an investment, because if you can address problems at that stage, you can deal with stuff which both becomes harder to treat as time goes on, but also results in significant additional costs to society - the price we pay for mental health-driven crime, damage, violence, policing is a lot higher than I think we realise, and a lot of that could be addressed by providing proactive, pre-emptive resources aimed at improving mental health wellbeing in the young. It'd pay dividends, and I'd go so far as to say that no amount of money spent on that would be excessive.

ETA: this flowed rather freely, on account of the fact that I have a meeting on Tuesday with a Rather Senior Person in NHS Wales to try and secure some funding for our ED service, and I have been, ahahaha, rehearsing my arguments


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 24, 2021)

It's the same with everything. Nothing is even adequately funded. Basically everything with more cash pumped in would be better and cost saving later. It's fucking hideous and short sighted and barbaric. All of it. The entire way this country is run.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 24, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> It's the same with everything. Nothing is even adequately funded. Basically everything with more cash pumped in would be better and cost saving later. It's fucking hideous and short sighted and barbaric. All of it. The entire way this country is run.


Kids don't vote


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 24, 2021)

Our most recent patient zero has now realised she was probably symptomatic last Friday (and then went to a house party on Saturday, and to school on Monday).  Having already sent the party guests and her Monday contacts home to isolate, (about a third of y12, one of whom himself then tested positive, so we lost another ten or so) we were now faced with the likelihood that on Friday she’d had contact with yet more students, though she can’t remember who.  So we’ve given up and sent the whole sixth form home for the remaining week since last Friday, on advice of public health England.) 

I made a thing for our Instagram, to try and get the little sods to resist playing superspreader.  

View attachment IMG_9224.MP4


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 25, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Daughter just rang me (obviously with a staff member) to ask permission to go home as someone in her class has or potentially has COVID. Seems daft keeping schools open now, just send them home until September.


Daughter's classmate HAS got Covid. Class isolating until July 5th. Daughter tested negative yesterday, me todsy, will be keeping an eye on her. Means I'm stuck WFH while she's here.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 27, 2021)

TA in our place tested positive midweek, they’d worked with both yr1 classes and the after school club, so whole year group plus a few others out. One year five class had only just come back this week after they’d had a positive case and been sent home. It’s back again isn’t it? Lost control again.


----------



## ash (Jun 27, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Sure, I understand that but in a way so what? We know that already. But there is also the reality of camhs in crisis.


Totally - we had an assessment after 15 months but are now in limbo waiting for treatment - they can’t tell us how long the waiting list is !!!


----------



## ash (Jun 27, 2021)

Red Cat existentialist our daughter is 17 what happens if she isn’t seen until she is 18 will they wash their hands of her ?!


----------



## existentialist (Jun 27, 2021)

ash said:


> Red Cat existentialist our daughter is 17 what happens if she isn’t seen until she is 18 will they wash their hands of her ?!


They'll refer her on to adult mental health services. But it does tend, in practice, to be quite a clunky transition


----------



## ash (Jun 27, 2021)

existentialist said:


> They'll refer her on to adult mental health services. But it does tend, in practice, to be quite a clunky transition


I’m hoping as it is SLAM who have a pretty good reputation from what I hear that it won’t be too clunky !!


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 28, 2021)

ash said:


> I’m hoping as it is SLAM who have a pretty good reputation from what I hear that it won’t be too clunky !!



Servies are always changing, I don't know what transition might be like in SLAM but there's a lot more understanding of the difficulties of this transition hence the growth of 0-25 years services. I'd expect SLAM to be fairly forward in their thinking but how that translates to practice isn't possible for me to say. You can call and ask to speak to the assessing clinician, they should be your point of contact until your daughter is allocated a keyworker.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 28, 2021)

Seeing a lot of these sort of posts / threads


----------



## elbows (Jun 28, 2021)

Complete dereliction of 'duty' in terms of the mass media covering that chaos. Can only trust the media to sing from the approved hymn sheet at this stage of the pandemic it seems.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jun 28, 2021)

elbows said:


> Complete dereliction of 'duty' in terms of the mass media covering that chaos. Can only trust the media to sing from the approved hymn sheet at this stage of the pandemic it seems.



Yes, total silence. Everything around schools seems to have just gone full on _emperor's new clothes_ now - it's insane.


----------



## elbows (Jun 28, 2021)

sheothebudworths said:


> Yes, total silence. Everything around schools seems to have just gone full on _emperor's new clothes_ now - it's insane.


The sad thing is that its insane in a very unsurprising way - the sort of standard business as usual insanity which passes for sanity around these parts. The stuff we'e had to learn to deal with throughout our lives, establishment priorities, sold to the masses via the press.

So the dereliction of duty of which I spoke is really a joke, based on myths about what the duty of the 'free press' is. In terms of their actual duty, they've een pretty much on message throughout. Limited windows of opportunity for limited dissent, eg during the period when the original establishment plan A was dying on its arse. Or journalists succumbing to lockdown fatigue well before everyone else. 

In past waves when things were deteriorating, media coverage of things like the hospital situation, featuring desperate interviews with health professionals and grim scenes from intensive care wards, were flipped on and off at specific moments in time. The establishment hopes to avoid having to flip that switch again this time, and so we have very muted coverage of this wave so far. Only if things go very bad are we likely to see the medias mood music changing back to a familiar pandemic doom tune.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 28, 2021)

It is noticeable how quiet the media are. Also the politicians have (more) blood on their hands here. 

My test centres have gone from 2/3% to 12/15% positive results over the last two weeks. Lot's of double vaccinated people coming to get tests for work/events/football/etc. are testing positive now. They are likely to be fine but have been out and about all over the shop. 

Kids and staff are in and out of a lot of schools like Yo-Yos  yet the paper headlines will be about earlier easing of restrictions and full of travel adverts. 

The #JohnsonVariant is an issue.


----------



## zahir (Jun 29, 2021)

Thread from Deepti Gurdasani





Also


----------



## Badgers (Jun 29, 2021)




----------



## NoXion (Jun 29, 2021)

So what's their plan/excuse when this kind of bullshit helps the virus mutate further and make their much-vaunted vaccines less effective? Tunnel-visioned fucking ghouls.


----------



## mr steev (Jun 29, 2021)

So no need for isolation, yet I've had a message from my daughters school saying that Public Health have informed the school that pupils need to keep isolating until next week due to the high numbers of Year 7s testing positive this week. They have all been off school since last week, so I presume this is pupils who have tested positive whilst being off school (who without isolation would be in!!)


----------



## existentialist (Jun 29, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what's their plan/excuse when this kind of bullshit helps the virus mutate further and make their much-vaunted vaccines less effective? Tunnel-visioned fucking ghouls.


They'll just deny schools had anything to do with it. They'll bend and warp whatever modelling they can get their hands on to cherrypick in support of that claim. This government inhabits a moral and ethical vacuum.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 29, 2021)

existentialist said:


> They'll just deny schools had anything to do with it. They'll bend and warp whatever modelling they can get their hands on to cherrypick in support of that claim. This government inhabits a moral and ethical vacuum.


Same as everything


----------



## elbows (Jun 29, 2021)

elbows said:


> Complete dereliction of 'duty' in terms of the mass media covering that chaos. Can only trust the media to sing from the approved hymn sheet at this stage of the pandemic it seems.


Ah I see they woke up about the disruption, but there is nice safe establishment framing in terms of looking ahead to next term and the abandonment of isolation rules.









						More pupils sent home as Covid disruption soars
					

Rapid increase in pupils out of school in England as changes expected for self-isolation rules.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




At least it is currently the top story on the BBC news website.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what's their plan/excuse when this kind of bullshit helps the virus mutate further and make their much-vaunted vaccines less effective? Tunnel-visioned fucking ghouls.


Yeah the Javid era plan seems to be herd immunity for kids, vaccine immunity for adults, tough shit for anyone who dies/gets seriously ill


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 29, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what's their plan/excuse when this kind of bullshit helps the virus mutate further and make their much-vaunted vaccines less effective? Tunnel-visioned fucking ghouls.


Yeah, this.    

That Kent variant didn't take long to evolve did it. How long for a son of delta variant. It was unavoidable will be the excuse if that happens(i hope it doesn't).


----------



## elbows (Jun 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Yeah the Javid era plan seems to be herd immunity for kids, vaccine immunity for adults, tough shit for anyone who dies/gets seriously ill



That plans been in effect since long before Javid, but he is especially keen to go on about it in relatively unvarnished terms.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 29, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Daughter's classmate HAS got Covid. Class isolating until July 5th. Daughter tested negative yesterday, me todsy, will be keeping an eye on her. Means I'm stuck WFH while she's here.



Same here. Except I like staying at home


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 30, 2021)

Email from school last night about child being a contact of someone who'd tested positive.

Problem was, it didn't say which of my children it was about


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 30, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> Email from school last night about child being a contact of someone who'd tested positive.
> 
> Problem was, it didn't say which of my children it was about



Superb. Do the kids know?


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Superb. Do the kids know?



One's off anyway.

Neither of them had heard anything from their friends about it or directly from the school


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> They'll just deny schools had anything to do with it. They'll bend and warp whatever modelling they can get their hands on to cherrypick in support of that claim. This government inhabits a moral and ethical vacuum.



Also they don't really need an excuse for anything. Nobody is consistently, systematically holding them to account. There is no requirement for them to say or do things which bear objective scrutiny.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 30, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> One's off anyway.
> 
> Neither of them had heard anything from their friends about it or directly from the school



That's fucking piss poor. Make sure you flag it up with the school.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's fucking piss poor. Make sure you flag it up with the school.



Yeah. Phoned them earlier


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jul 2, 2021)

I had an email from my daughter's school today relating to some new cases there (she's in Yr 11 so already left but still officially a student there) which says this... 

'As of today, public health are requesting that where schools have two or more cases within 14 days that face coverings are reintroduced.'.

That's been rather quietly put back in place, hasn't it?  Very, very sensible obviously (and her school has already kept to masks in common areas) but very predictable that there's no noise about it/acknowledgment of another u-turn, too.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jul 2, 2021)

Saying that, I have no idea if it's national or local policy (our cases are going up very fast again).


----------



## baldrick (Jul 4, 2021)

10% of the teaching staff in my school now either have covid or need to self isolate. Until last week I thought we might get to the hols without major incident but I really feel like something is accelerating now. I never usually get emails on a Sunday about cover.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

Gavin Williamson just done a speech in which he said it's important for students to get back to their education. No idea what the reedy voiced cunt thinks hundreds of thousands of educational workers were up to during lockdown. 
Basically schools are gonna be left to deal. Also said staff who've been double jabbed and get pinged don't have to isolate.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

... along with all other double jabbed adults


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 6, 2021)

Got a self isolation order on my phone. Counting the days back it would have been from my last day at college. 

Filling me with joy for enrolment.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

I despise Gavlar. He's such a lickspittle, a weak man with no discernible positive qualities


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 6, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I despise Gavlar. He's such a lickspittle, a weak man with no discernible positive qualities


Gavlar sounds like the villain from an 80s cartoon.


----------



## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Gavlar sounds like the villain from an 80s cartoon.


By the power of Gaviscon liquid, I have the powerrrrrr!


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jul 6, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Gavlar sounds like the villain from an 80s cartoon.


No!


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jul 6, 2021)

Our cook is off now, due to her son having tested positive.
When I arrived, one of my workmates had sensibly gone to collect some tests which most of us did, apart from our two anti vaxxers, who refused.
Having listened to the pair of them talking total bollocks, for months, I am absolutely sick of them - but it looks like there is nothing we can do to pursue it now, with the 19th almost upon us and the total removal of all restrictions (and when there has already only been a pretence at SD anyway in the kitchen/canteen).
I am fucking furious at the selfish, thick, entitled wankers, along with this despicable government - I really don't know how to work with these people anymore.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 6, 2021)

My boss’s son is in year six.  His whole year group were sent home to isolate today, so that’s it.  That’s primary school finished.  No last assembly, or disco, or the production they’ve been rehearsing.  
Heartbreaking.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 6, 2021)

Sister had to isolate today (7th or 8th time ) along with half a year.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

Don't worry, they're doing away with all that soon! Hurrah!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 6, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Don't worry, they're doing away with all that soon! Hurrah!


When is Covid officially over in the UK? I think the government here had a meeting with Covid and delayed its end for a while.


----------



## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> When is Covid officially over in the UK? I think the government here had a meeting with Covid and delayed its end for a while.


As part of a good will gesture to demonstrate good faith during those negotiations, they are scrapping the schools stuff in time for the end of term. So that they can announce a date for it that is much earlier and chimes with 'freedom day' than the date it will actually make a difference in practice, the start of next term.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jul 6, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> My boss’s son is in year six.  His whole year group were sent home to isolate today, so that’s it.  That’s primary school finished.  No last assembly, or disco, or the production they’ve been rehearsing.
> Heartbreaking.


It's devastating - the lack of any normal ends and starts and the constant changes. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have lived through all of this as a child.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 6, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> When is Covid officially over in the UK? I think the government here had a meeting with Covid and delayed its end for a while.


I think they're going to be taken by surprise by Covid's purist interpretation of the laws of epidemiology.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 9, 2021)

School is going ahead with going out to theme park as we usually would in the summer term. But it feels like a whole load of planning and work for something that might not go ahead if there end up being lots of staff absences due to isolating

ETA: the children have been told about the trip and I hope it goes ahead because I’d hate for them to end the academic year on a disappointing note


----------



## nagapie (Jul 11, 2021)

What does one currently do with a child who has a snotty nose?


----------



## Thora (Jul 11, 2021)

nagapie said:


> What does one currently do with a child who has a snotty nose?


You don't have to do anything at the moment.  I did keep my youngest off for a couple of days when hers was streaming green snot as she's rubbish at wiping it herself, but you don't have to.


----------



## nagapie (Jul 11, 2021)

Thora said:


> You don't have to do anything at the moment.  I did keep my youngest off for a couple of days when hers was streaming green snot as she's rubbish at wiping it herself, but you don't have to.


I don't get paid if my child is home ill.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 11, 2021)

nagapie said:


> What does one currently do with a child who has a snotty nose?


Give them junior paracetamol and keep their fluids up. Maybe some cake.
You're not supposed to use lateral flow tests if there are Covid symptoms but given they have just one and it's likely to be a cold then I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## nagapie (Jul 11, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Give them junior paracetamol and keep their fluids up. Maybe some cake.
> You're not supposed to use lateral flow tests if there are Covid symptoms but given they have just one and it's likely to be a cold then I wouldn't worry about it.


Cake 😀


----------



## elbows (Jul 11, 2021)

Put it this way, for months one of the central themes to some of the government advertising has been 'Dont guess. Get a test'.


----------



## nagapie (Jul 11, 2021)

elbows said:


> Put it this way, for months one of the central themes to some of the government advertising has been 'Dont guess. Get a test'.


I have tested myself. I cannot test him, he goes mental.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 12, 2021)

Why are the restrictions lifting on 19th July? It’d be easier if it was a week later when the majority of schools would’ve closed. I feel that the last week of the summer term is just an opportunity for children to end up spend the beginning of their summer break having to isolate


----------



## elbows (Jul 12, 2021)

Well Im sure the delay was timed to coincide with lots of schools being shut by then. I know the picture varies per area in England and some are a week later, I think I even spotted a few that are two weeks later. And the likes of Leicestershire are pretty much on holiday already.

I didnt agree with step 3 of the roadmap, let alone step 4. So Im very much not justifying this choice of timing. But given that they expect more problems when schools go back, and are quite prepared to acknowledge in press conferences that they are relying on school holidays to help with the situation, I can see why they would go for a date that is in the middle of the range of end of term dates. Because if they delay a week or two longer then there are all sorts of regions where the amount of time that effects of reopening are somewhat counteracted by school holidays is reduced.

When I try to explain that rationale in this way, this is no attempt to hide the absurdities of the UK approach. The absurdities have always been a big part of my focus and indeed if Id been forced to predict at the start what the UK would be good at in the pandemic, vaccines and absurdities would have been easy picks.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 12, 2021)

Thank you for that explanation. I couldn’t even fathom what the reason could be. Still not best pleased as it feels like I’ll be spending the next two weeks having to help out with the the seemingly endless phone calls regarding students isolating


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 13, 2021)

I just want my daughter to get through these next six schooldays.


----------



## baldrick (Jul 13, 2021)

baldrick said:


> 10% of the teaching staff in my school now either have covid or need to self isolate. Until last week I thought we might get to the hols without major incident but I really feel like something is accelerating now. I never usually get emails on a Sunday about cover.


I am unsure if we're going to get to the end of term without sending some year groups home. Consistently have 3 or 4 staff a day off at the minute, I'm off today. I usually feel tremendous guilt when I'm sick but cover has been causing me so much stress I felt anxious and on edge all day yesterday.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 13, 2021)

Groups of students sent home on 3 consecutive school days. It’s getting stressful especially when staff also end up getting sent home.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 13, 2021)

baldrick said:


> I am unsure if we're going to get to the end of term without sending some year groups home. Consistently have 3 or 4 staff a day off at the minute, I'm off today. I usually feel tremendous guilt when I'm sick but cover has been causing me so much stress I felt anxious and on edge all day yesterday.



It is stressful. Hope the day away helps


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 13, 2021)

Wonder what next term will bring

😳


----------



## PursuedByBears (Jul 13, 2021)

6 members of staff now isolating at Mrs B's school, including her


----------



## mr steev (Jul 13, 2021)

elbows said:


> Well Im sure the delay was timed to coincide with lots of schools being shut by then. I know the picture varies per area in England and some are a week later, I think I even spotted a few that are two weeks later. And the likes of Leicestershire are pretty much on holiday already.



That makes more sense. I never considered schools closing at different times in different areas. Schools round here mostly finish on 21st/22nd but it seems most have decided to use up inset days and are now finishing at the end of this week.



Sugar Kane said:


> Wonder what next term will bring
> 
> 😳



I had a letter about my daughters school mini bus for next September this morning... Still a limited service only for years 7, 8 & 9, saying sanitisers and face masks still need to be used


----------



## zahir (Jul 15, 2021)

Covid contacts: What schools need to know for next week
					

DfE tells schools it only expects a small number of contacts to be identified for each Covid case and they won't normally be called




					www.tes.com


----------



## zahir (Jul 23, 2021)

More shockingly bad research - a thread


----------



## elbows (Jul 23, 2021)

zahir said:


> More shockingly bad research - a thread




Thats quite the demolition!


----------



## elbows (Aug 17, 2021)

Lack of serious effort and funding for mitigation measures in schools makes this country look very bad. So I'm pleased that ventilation at least gets a mention in the news at the moment:









						Urgent call for Covid-safe ventilation in schools
					

Education unions make an urgent call for school-ventilation measures to limit Covid and "long Covid".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> Better airflow measures would limit disruption and sickness, unions say.
> 
> And they are demanding funding for:
> carbon-dioxide monitors - to ensure adequate airflow
> ...


----------



## zahir (Aug 18, 2021)

More suggestions of evidence for outdoor transmission from Australia.


----------



## zahir (Aug 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 18, 2021)

#thiswillgowell


----------



## zahir (Aug 20, 2021)




----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 20, 2021)

Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but our two 17-year-olds went to a walk-in centre for their vaccinations this morning, where they were told that they would only be getting one, rather than the double jab that adults are receiving. 

Am I the only one that doesn't remember this little detail being mentioned AT ALL in any of the news coverage about extending the vaccine programme to 16-17 year olds? Surely there's not enough difference between a 17.5 year old and an 18-year-old to make it make medical sense to only give out a single vaccine?

Editing to link to the JCVI decision about it: JCVI statement on COVID-19 vaccination of children and young people aged 12 to 17 years: 4 August 2021


----------



## elbows (Aug 20, 2021)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but our two 17-year-olds went to a walk-in centre for their vaccinations this morning, where they were told that they would only be getting one, rather than the double jab that adults are receiving.
> 
> Am I the only one that doesn't remember this little detail being mentioned AT ALL in any of the news coverage about extending the vaccine programme to 16-17 year olds? Surely there's not enough difference between a 17.5 year old and an 18-year-old to make it make medical sense to only give out a single vaccine?
> 
> Editing to link to the JCVI decision about it: JCVI statement on COVID-19 vaccination of children and young people aged 12 to 17 years: 4 August 2021



It was clear enough to me at the time. I dont think the media kicked up a fuss because, as per that JCVI decision you linked to, the detail of their recommendation suggests they would still like to offer a second dose at some point:



> At this time, JCVI advises that all 16 to 17-year-olds should be offered a first dose of Pfizer-BNT162b2 vaccine. This is in addition to the existing offer of 2 doses of vaccine to 16 to 17-year-olds who are in ‘at-risk’ groups. Pending further evidence on effectiveness and safety in this age group, *a second vaccine dose is anticipated to be offered later* to increase the level of protection and contribute towards longer term protection. Further data and the potential availability of alternative vaccine options will inform exact details which will be provided in a subsequent update of this advice before second doses are due at approximately 12 weeks after the first dose.



Three reasons leap to mind as to why they went for this 'keep their options open' approach:

Data from other countries about Pfizer and Moderna side effect of heart inflammation seemed to suggest this was more common in younger people (and males if I remember correctly) and that it was more common with the second dose. Waiting longer for more data to come in on that seems sensible. Other intertesting vaccine data may also become clearer in regards what the actual upsides of vaccinating this age group are when faced with the Delta variant.

Changes to robust, easily measurable immune responses when different dosing schedules are used is an interesting thing. I didnt like it when the UK first increased the 2nd dose gap to 12 weeks because most of the vaccine efficacy data from elsewhere was based on a much shorter gap, and we didnt have any other evidence. And nobody told me at the time that there was actually an expectation that a longer gap could lead to better results, it was painted as a purely logistical issue at the time, to stretch out supply and prioritise vaccinating as many people as possible. But I believe recently I saw the USA, when starting to discuss their third shot as a booster plans, said they knew their initial short gap would make boosters necessary in the coming months, so maybe the scientific community did have expectations about this all along. Anyway in this case I can understand why the authorities in the UK have avoided setting the gap for the 16-17 year olds now, giving themselves more time to weigh up the best option.

Supply and logistical issues. Although JCVI is usually described as independent, these decisions arent made in a vacuum and the medical scientific community features plenty of people with multiple roles and all sorts of overlaps and influences. As such I do expect their decisions to factor in operational issues, government preferences and the general sense of what is and is not possible within certain timeframes.


----------



## elbows (Aug 21, 2021)

A late pledge to actually spend some money on CO2 monitors to help alert school authorities to ventilation issues has finally been made. No good excuses for having left such things this late, but we wouldnt expect this government to be early and responsible when it comes to such basic measures.









						Covid: CO2 monitors pledged to aid school ventilation
					

Schools in England are to be given CO2 monitors to as part of plans to limit the spread of Covid.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2021)

elbows said:


> A late pledge to actually spend some money on CO2 monitors to help alert school authorities to ventilation issues has finally been made. No good excuses for having left such things this late, but we wouldnt expect this government to be early and responsible when it comes to such basic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



presumably have to wait for some Tory donors to buy up a stockpile of them ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 21, 2021)

elbows said:


> A late pledge to actually spend some money on CO2 monitors to help alert school authorities to ventilation issues has finally been made. No good excuses for having left such things this late, but we wouldnt expect this government to be early and responsible when it comes to such basic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The last school I worked at already had CO2 monitors in every classroom. They were installed pre-covid, as a way to quickly burn off an end-of-year budget surplus or because some deputy head of something read an article somewhere and decided that ventilation was their panacea for the school's woes and the hill they wanted to die on. 

The monitors didn't work.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 22, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The last school I worked at already had CO2 monitors in every classroom. They were installed pre-covid, as a way to quickly burn off an end-of-year budget surplus or because some deputy head of something read an article somewhere and decided that ventilation was their panacea for the school's woes and the hill they wanted to die on.
> 
> The monitors didn't work.



the science behind this is sound - cognitive ability is higher if c02 levels are closer to outdoor conditions.

the implementation above might be shit - but the idea was good.

“The Harvard group measured a 15 percent decline of cognitive ability scores at 950 ppm and 50 percent declines at 1,400 ppm.”

(450ppm is outdoor levels)



			https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/yaleclimateconnections.org/2016/07/indoor-co2-dumb-and-dumber/


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 22, 2021)

alex_ said:


> the science behind this is sound - congnative ability is higher if c02 levels are closer to outdoor conditions.
> 
> the implementation above might be shit - but the idea was good.
> 
> ...



I'm familiar with this stuff. It's why I get so piss-boilingly furious with parents idling their cars outside the school when they come to pick up their kids. One of the reasons anyway.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 22, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm familiar with this stuff. It's why I get so piss-boilingly furious with parents idling their cars outside the school when they come to pick up their kids. One of the reasons anyway.



The problem there is particulates not c02


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 22, 2021)

alex_ said:


> The problem there is particulates not c02



It's both. And more besides, here is a paper on carbon monoxide outside schools:









						Impact of school traffic on outdoor carbon monoxide levels
					

This paper aims to determine the relationship between carbon monoxide levels with vehicles, including types and motions of vehicles in a school traffi…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				




Still looking for some research I saw a while ago about CO2 levels outside schools, will post it here if I find it.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 22, 2021)

Covid in schools is so rife, I doubt any adjustments will help. There's just so many people in close contact and all the kids get up close at playtime and break their bubbles without masks before and after school. As I work in secondary, loads break bubbles to hang out and snog their girlfriends/boyfriends after school.

It's just impossible, I can't remember any time our school didn't have covid cases and that's the ones we knew about.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 22, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Covid in schools is so rife, I doubt any adjustments will help. There's just so many people in close contact and all the kids get up close at playtime and break their bubbles without masks before and after school. As I work in secondary, loads break bubbles to hang out and snog their girlfriends/boyfriends after school.
> 
> It's just impossible, I can't remember any time our school didn't have covid cases and that's the ones we knew about.



I think the advice for classrooms is 6 air changes per hour, before transmission tends to zero.



			https://syracusecoe.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020.8.Schiff.pdf
		


alex


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)




----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2021)

> A new government campaign urging students in England to have twice-weekly Covid tests for “a more normal year” at school and college has been labelled as naive by school union leaders.
> 
> The campaign includes an Olympic gold medallist, the 18-year-old swimmer Matt Richards, telling students that regular testing allowed him to compete at Tokyo and will allow them to “get back to the things you love, like competitive sports and school matches”.





> The Department for Education (DfE) is preparing to tackle parents and children reluctant to return to school by recruiting teams of “attendance advisers” on short-term contracts worth £25,000.
> 
> The contracts, which were first advertised this week, are to start in November, and the advisers will guide local authorities on measures to meet the DfE’s priority “to reduce overall school absence as we recover from the pandemic”.
> 
> The DfE said: “A small team of attendance advisers are being recruited to work with local authorities and multi-academy trusts to provide advice, guidance and support on attendance where absence rates are higher than average.”


Smell those priorities!









						Unions criticise English schools ‘more normal year’ campaign as naive
					

As students are urged to have twice-weekly Covid tests, unions say further measures are needed to reassure parents




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## nagapie (Aug 26, 2021)

So if as a teacher, I get Covid (highly likely), do my children still have to isolate?
Or do I just have to PCR test them?
Not understanding the new rules for families.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 26, 2021)

nagapie said:


> So if as a teacher, I get Covid (highly likely), do my children still have to isolate?
> Or do I just have to PCR test them?
> Not understanding the new rules for families.



In order to answer your question, Are you also a government minister ?

Alex


----------



## Thora (Aug 26, 2021)

nagapie said:


> So if as a teacher, I get Covid (highly likely), do my children still have to isolate?
> Or do I just have to PCR test them?
> Not understanding the new rules for families.


I think they only have to isolate until/if they get negative PCR results.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Same happening over here. It's crazy. 
So a vaccinated teacher gets covid and has been sat with other vaccinated staff over the past week...
None are now counted as close contacts.  If they become symptomatic they're to stay away and get tested. But they wont be deemed close contacts as they're vaccinated.  

It is appallingly stupid.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




With cases at their current levels half of schools would be shut again within a fortnight of opening if the isolation policy was the same as it was in the summer term. 

Not that this 'don't bother isolating or even informing contacts in schools' policy is in any way sane or acceptable. But there isn't an acceptable policy available at this point, now that the ball has been dropped yet again. I don't even know if we're in the third wave or the fourth wave right now.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 26, 2021)

alex_ said:


> In order to answer your question, Are you also a government minister ?
> 
> Alex


No, I'm a teacher who sadly doesn't get paid for any days my children have to isolate after me, alex.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




500 quid a day for 'attendance advisers'. 500 quid a day is about 5 times what I make as an early career teacher.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 27, 2021)

Does anyone know the 'measures' being kept in place?


----------



## elbows (Aug 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Does anyone know the 'measures' being kept in place?




Do some testing, carry on wiping surfaces, and at least pay lip service to ventilation. These things arent entirely meaningless but I doubt they are enough on their own, especially if the ventilation thing isnt actually done properly.


----------



## elbows (Aug 27, 2021)

The big unknown for me at this point is that attitude local health teams will have to large school outbreaks. The removal of various self-isolation rules, what counts as a close contact etc are not good, but those changes dont provide a full guide as to what authorities will actually do when faced with high numbers at particular schools in the months ahead. I've seen at least one story about a school in Scotland being forced to shut already, and I dont know how much of that to expect in England. We know that such steps are not a good fit for the current government approach, but that doesnt mean authorities will be able to resist taking such steps when local situations cry out for such responses.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2021)

elbows said:


> The big unknown for me at this point is that attitude local health teams will have to large school outbreaks. The removal of various self-isolation rules, what counts as a close contact etc are not good, but those changes dont provide a full guide as to what authorities will actually do when faced with high numbers at particular schools in the months ahead. I've seen at least one story about a school in Scotland being forced to shut already, and I dont know how much of that to expect in England. We know that such steps are not a good fit for the current government approach, but that doesnt mean authorities will be able to resist taking such steps when local situations cry out for such responses.



It was having too many staff isolating that was forcing schools to close in June/July, rather than numbers of students absent. In theory we were supposed to be providing stuff for the isolating kids to do at home as well as teaching the kids who were still in but in reality the kids at home got either nothing or some pointless busy work, while this kids in class got similarly pointless stuff to do because actually teaching half a class meant you'd either have to teach the same stuff again next week or let half the class miss out on the content altogether. This was absurd, but still an acceptable situation for the powers that be. Having too few staff on site to even provide a basic level of supervision, that's not an acceptable situation. I don't actually know what the new rules are (wouldn't be surprised if schools hadn't been officially told yet) but I'm sure they'll have been rigged to exclude as many teachers and staff as possible from having to isolate as close contacts. My other bet is that these rule changes will not have any basis in science, logic or even basic common sense. 

Schools are supposed to present kids with a model of sensible, adult behaviour. That is not happening. Kids are spending their days in a place that has clearly gone batshit insane and then being relentlessly gaslighted about it. I've even caught myself doing it. When some kid has asked why they need a mask in an empty corridor but not in a packed classroom I made some excuse about people making difficult compromises, everyone trying really hard to make sure kids could stay in school, many complex factors that are hard to get your head round, blah blah blah. Didn't address the substance of the kid's question at all, because how could I? Not without saying, 'the people who decide these things don't give a shit about your wellbeing or mine, but for the sake of their careers they need to be able to say that schools are open and never mind if those schools are actually functioning as schools, if half the kids are home isolating, or any other level of absurdity.' 

Dunno if any of that made any sense. I'm angry and scared and I don't know how many more times I can go through all this, or participate in dragging innocent kids through it.


----------



## elbows (Aug 27, 2021)

It makes sense. Especially since I remember being a child and learning about the priorities and absurdities of authorities via the experience of listening to what the school authorities said and what they did in response to various challenges. And kids can be really good at picking up on such things and probing or exploiting weaknesses, contradictions and bullshit. And cynicism, fear, anger and skepticism of teachers will rub off on children, it will not go unnoticed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2021)

Kids in Devon and Cornwall will have to wear masks again.









						Masks to be worn in some south-west England schools amid Covid rise
					

Rule for communal areas in secondary schools and colleges is part of extra efforts in region




					www.theguardian.com
				




Still, tourism is good for the economy right?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Kids in Devon and Cornwall will have to wear masks again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tourism is good for the business and property owners for sure.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 28, 2021)

First Covid case related letter for the new term from one of our schools, staff member at son's Year 7 transition summer school.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 30, 2021)

Not unexpected but still shit


----------



## weepiper (Aug 30, 2021)

Kids have been back at school for a week. 



> Dear Parent, Carer,





> In line with patterns across the country, (_our high school_) is seeing an increase in COVID infections in the pupil population.





> This is in all year groups.
> 
> Today we have been informed of 11 new cases.
> 
> ...


The Warn and Inform Letter basically says noone has to stay off unless they personally have symptoms or they've been directly contacted by Test and Trace.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 30, 2021)

It's going to be carnage in England isn't it. I sent an email to my daughter's school asking what their policy is now and haven't had an answer. 

College has students back next week and we are "returning to pre-Covid working arrangements". Face coverings a personal choice (with "support" for people who want to wear them, i.e. stopping short of saying you can't). No more bubbles, "encouraging" of frequent hand washing, no requirement to track and trace. Increased cleaning regime still in place.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 30, 2021)

Out of interest, how is the "support" defined?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 30, 2021)

"Where staff or learners wish to continue to wear face coverings, we will be supporting this and also, we would ask everyone to respect all others personal space if they wish to continue their own form of social distancing"

That's it on face coverings


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 30, 2021)

S☼I said:


> "Where staff or learners wish to continue to wear face coverings, we will be supporting this and also, we would ask everyone to respect all others personal space if they wish to continue their own form of social distancing"
> 
> That's it on face coverings



"their *own form *of social distancing"

I'm doing mine in interpretative dance.

Cunts.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 31, 2021)




----------



## thismoment (Aug 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Just doesn’t make sense to me! Back at it this week, getting quite anxious.


----------



## zahir (Aug 31, 2021)

How it's going so far in Scotland.









						Almost half of one school absent in Covid surge - BBC News
					

More than 400 children were missing from St Ninian's in Kirkintilloch on Tuesday for Covid-related reasons.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 1, 2021)

So, what happens when all the teachers are off?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> So, what happens when all the teachers are off?


The Dailly Wail calls them lazy


----------



## Aladdin (Sep 1, 2021)

I live next door to a primary school. They reopened yesterday. 
For about 20 mins from 8.40 to 9.00 yesterday I could hear one child screaming that they didnt want to go in. The child was screaming about covid.
"I dont want to get sick "...
I felt so sorry for the kid.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 1, 2021)

I don't want my child to get sick.


----------



## Mattym (Sep 1, 2021)

I am reasonably apprehensive about returning to school, not so much the classroom with 30 kids, but more the hall with 100 staff in it on Friday/INSET day.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 1, 2021)

Mattym said:


> I am reasonably apprehensive about returning to school, not so much the classroom with 30 kids, but more the hall with 100 staff in it on Friday/INSET day.


All of our inset and meetings are still via zoom. Doubt it will make any difference as once the kids start rolling in, everyone will have it, again.


----------



## Mattym (Sep 1, 2021)

nagapie said:


> All of our inset and meetings are still via zoom. Doubt it will make any difference as once the kids start rolling in, everyone will have it, again.


Wish we were still via Teams- I'm not mentally ready for this, but not sure how to voice my reservations anymore, without looking 'anti' everything.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 2, 2021)

This lass seems to have been fucked over by the media somewhat...


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 2, 2021)

Yes it does seem as the new term comes around some things will be new but the outright lies and gaslighting will be as it was all last academic year:









						Covid: Schools aren't infection hubs, says public health boss
					

Dr Yvonne Doyle seeks to reassure parents as pupils head back to classrooms across the country.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Next up:  _Why the Pope has actually been Hindu all these years _and _In fact bears are fastidious is their use of flushing toilets._


----------



## elbows (Sep 2, 2021)

Its not just the media eaither, its an area where 'the scientific community' fall out with each other. Partly because its one of those 'balance' things where a whole bunch of experts will downplay certain aspects because they believe that on balance, education and certain development and mental health issues are more important. Its tricky and messy and gets emotive quickly. I can see both sides point of view but I do end up thinking less of those who go too far with their reassurances.

As for the media its one of those days where on the BBC live updates page some contradictions can be found.

08:23 entry:



> Dr Yvonne Doyle, medical director of Public Health England, has been offering reassurance to parents on BBC Breakfast.
> 
> “We understand, and I understand fully, that parents may be nervous but I would stress again that schools are not the drivers and not the hubs of infection,” she says.
> 
> ...



11:08 entry:



> Experts like Prof Calum Semple from the University of Liverpool and Public Health England's Dr Yvonne Doyle are agreed that school is the best place for children.
> 
> But vaccinating everyone else means that they’ll look more like “hubs” for infections than they did last year.
> 
> If your problems get smaller and mine stay the same, I start to look worse than you.





> Parents have to balance the risks of Covid with the risks of disruption to education. Health experts currently appear more worried about missing education.



Contrast those with these bits from the 11:23 entry:



> More than 12.4 million children have gone back to school in France despite warnings of a spike in Covid-19 infections fuelled by unvaccinated pupils under the age of 12.
> 
> The schools reopened on Thursday under new health measures that the French government hopes will keep Covid cases under control.
> 
> Students aged six and up will be required to wear masks indoors, social-distancing will be enforced, and vaccines will be offered to over-12s in schools.





> But not everyone shared the minister's optimism. Experts have warned of a steep rise in cases, potentially driven by millions of unvaccinated schoolchildren.
> 
> They have pointed to Scotland, where cases surged after classes began in mid-August, as a cautionary tale.
> 
> French doctor Hélène Rossinot told the BFMTV news channel that an “explosion” of infections was possible. More testing was needed to identify outbreaks, she said.





			https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-58418535
		


As usual what is largely missing from the picture offered by the media and experts is that one of the reason why closing schools makes such a difference in pandemics is that it disrupts adult contact mixing patterns, not just children, and underlines the fact that things are not normal and routines wont be normal. And there is a relationship between that concept and the other thing that doesnt get much of a mention, which is that its not just education that authorities worry about, its the childcare angle and it knock-on effect on staffing levels and the economy.


----------



## klang (Sep 2, 2021)

my partner is SEN teacher. Her school operates some sort of a bubble system. My partner and the PE teacher are the only two staff who are not assigned to a certain bubble but hop between them. They teach every single child in the school.


----------



## zahir (Sep 2, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

Coming to England soon...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

NI update 



> Justin McCamphill from NASUWT accused Education Minister Michelle McIlveen of poor leadership and asked why several mitigations, such as classroom bubbling and self-isolation requirements, were being relaxed when the transmission of the virus remained so high in the community.
> 
> He said in the week prior to the start of the autumn term last year there were 421 Covid-19 cases recorded in Northern Ireland. In comparison, he said last week there were almost 11,000 in the regio n.











						Northern Ireland ‘faces circuit break lockdown' if schools spread not tackled
					

Teaching unions have expressed concerns at moves to relax mitigation measures in schools.




					www.irishnews.com


----------



## zahir (Sep 3, 2021)

Summit on delta, children and schools


----------



## zahir (Sep 4, 2021)

Other countries approaches...









						Cuba starts vaccinating children in order to re-open schools amid Covid surge
					

Cuban authorities on Friday launched a national campaign to vaccinate children aged two to 18 against Covid-19, a prerequisite set by the Communist government for schools to reopen amid a spike in infections.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 5, 2021)

Spot the difference:

Salient points from an email from my daughter's school in response to my email asking for confirmation of the school's current COVID policies:



> Bubbles – Educational settings are not currently operating bubble systems. This is subject to change if the local authority advises us that the threshold has been met to reintroduce the bubble system.



and from the letter sent to all parents



> As you know we have implemented lots of protective measures at the Academy to reduce the risk (hand washing, year group bubbles, remote learning) and we welcome these [recommended but not mandatory LFT] tests *as an additional protective measure* that will keep everyone safe.



Hmmm. Bolded bit mine.

The email goes on to say:



> Ventilation – We are fortunate that all our classrooms have windows which can be opened to provide adequate ventilation. We are also *being provided with C02 meters* to ensure adequate ventilation within the classroom.


Bolded bit mine.

All the rest is government guidelines more or less to the letter. The email even links to the gov uk website.

I'm sorry but I remain unsatisfied.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 5, 2021)

I fully expect it will finally hit our household this term - we have avoided it thus far but it feels like it has to happen. I'm kind of willing it to hurry up and get it over with at this stage.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

Email from the Good Law Project 



> Schools are reopening and Government wants to pretend Covid is fixed. But this stance puts the lives of children, their families, and teaching staff at risk.
> 
> Even children and families with serious medical conditions that make them especially vulnerable to Covid are expected to return to school  - without any protective measures. Government’s policy requires no contact tracing by schools, no bubbles, and tells families who are vulnerable to just “follow the same guidance as everyone else."
> 
> ...


----------



## nagapie (Sep 6, 2021)

Day 1 in the Big Covid schoolhouse, 3 staff off.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Day 1 in the Big Covid schoolhouse, 3 staff off.


Hearing the same from my sister (big primary school in Yorkshire) today


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 6, 2021)

So we went back last week. 2 inset days then the kids on Friday.

After one inset day we had our first ever positive staff member. Everyone told to do lft tests. Over the weekend we got our second ever positive (we only have 20 staff, so that's 10%). The second one was from the person who has more contact with both kids and staff than anyone else. I don't think I've ever seen her in a mask.

Today I've tried to forget about it but am convinced the numbers won't stop at two. I haven't been in today because I had an urgent MRI in London. Am now coming back to Wales on the train. This train should have nine coaches. It's been given five. It's packed.


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 6, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Day 1 in the Big Covid schoolhouse, 3 staff off.


2 here (inc me).

I was off for inset last week but the other teacher who tested positive mixed with the entire teaching staff. She'd seen someone the weekend previously who tested positive the day before the inset. She went for PCR the same day & informed the Head.

Head told her to come in for inset anyway while waiting for test results. She tested positive that evening. Part of the inset was 'speed dating'; lunch was a buffet. I'll be running the place only my own when I go back on Friday.


----------



## nagapie (Sep 6, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> 2 here (inc me).
> 
> I was off for inset last week but the other teacher who tested positive mixed with the entire teaching staff. She'd seen someone the weekend previously who tested positive the day before the inset. She went for PCR the same day & informed the Head.
> 
> Head told her to come in for inset anyway while waiting for test results. She tested positive that evening. Part of the inset was 'speed dating'; lunch was a buffet. I'll be running the place only my own when I go back on Friday.


'speed dating' in the time of Covid? Your head sounds a bit stupid. We are still doing our insets over Google Meet.


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 6, 2021)

I know. It's nuts.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)




----------



## planetgeli (Sep 6, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> So we went back last week. 2 inset days then the kids on Friday.
> 
> After one inset day we had our first ever positive staff member. Everyone told to do lft tests. Over the weekend we got our second ever positive (we only have 20 staff, so that's 10%). The second one was from the person who has more contact with both kids and staff than anyone else. I don't think I've ever seen her in a mask.
> 
> Today I've tried to forget about it but am convinced the numbers won't stop at two. I haven't been in today because I had an urgent MRI in London. Am now coming back to Wales on the train. This train should have nine coaches. It's been given five. It's packed.



Just texted my line manager to say I'll be late tomorrow as my train has now broken down in Bristol.

She tells me she's covid positive as well. So that's three. And that's just the ones I know of.


----------



## Aladdin (Sep 7, 2021)

12000 children out of school this week as they are deemed close contacts. 
Schools are back since 26th to 30th Aug

And the government is telling schools and parents that it's all down to community transmission...not in school transmission.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 8, 2021)

In England there's no longer such a thing as close contact. You've got it or you carry on like it never existed
It's nuts, I want to scream.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> In England there's no longer such a thing as close contact. You've got it or you carry on like it never existed
> It's nuts, I want to scream.



My mate was explaining this to me last night. His son has it, but both him, his wife and his daughter can do what they like.

Thankfully I live on my own so can apply my own rules


----------



## Badgers (Sep 8, 2021)




----------



## Teaboy (Sep 8, 2021)

Of course schooling is vitally important to kids but right now I wouldn't blame any parent for keeping their kids at home.  I'm very glad I don't have to make these sort of decisions.


----------



## oryx (Sep 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



I feel for Gemma. That's insane. 

Hopefully she's putting in a strongly-worded complaint to the school. I mean telling kids the 'rules' have changed is one thing, telling them Covid has gone away is an outright lie.

The thing is, parents who keep their kids off school for this reason (like Teaboy I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions) will be penalised for absence.


----------



## Edie (Sep 8, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Of course schooling is vitally important to kids but right now I wouldn't blame any parent for keeping their kids at home.  I'm very glad I don't have to make these sort of decisions.


What?! That’s such an extreme position. This has become so polarised there are people on both sides with totally nutty views like this.


----------



## oryx (Sep 8, 2021)

Edie said:


> What?! That’s such an extreme position. This has become so polarised there are people on both sides with totally nutty views like this.


I don't think it is a nutty view.

What if you have vulnerable family members at home? That must apply to quite a lot of parents.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 8, 2021)

Yeh we do but still want our children in school. Children’s development has been knocked by this with enormous impact on their mental health.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 8, 2021)

oryx said:


> I feel for Gemma. That's insane.
> 
> Hopefully she's putting in a strongly-worded complaint to the school. I mean telling kids the 'rules' have changed is one thing, telling them Covid has gone away is an outright lie.
> 
> The thing is, parents who keep their kids off school for this reason (like Teaboy I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions) will be penalised for absence.


Why would you trust that? Sounds like bollocks to me


----------



## Edie (Sep 8, 2021)

oryx said:


> I don't think it is a nutty view.
> 
> What if you have vulnerable family members at home? That must apply to quite a lot of parents.


He used the phrase ‘any parent’.

But even if we take the case of a child with a CEV family member. The fact is covid is here to stay, and we have developed a very effective vaccine that has decoupled infection rates from death rates and largely from hospital admissions. All adults have been double vaccinated if they wish. Children need education and socialisation, for their intellectual, psychological and social development and their mental health.  The situation with covid is not going to change in the medium term, it is what it is. You cannot keep children at home indefinitely, into a third academic year, there are significant risks to doing so. It is not a proportionate response to the risk.

The idea that ‘any’ parent could do so, without any other family at home with risk factors, is nutty.


----------



## oryx (Sep 8, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Why would you trust that? Sounds like bollocks to me


It may well be misinterpreted via a child's report of it, or indeed not true at all, but taking it at face value it should be addressed. If I had kids and one of them told me that, I'd want to take it up with the school.

There is enough 'bollocks' spouted about Covid that it could well be true... we'll probably never know.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 8, 2021)

Edie said:


> He used the phrase ‘any parent’.
> 
> But even if we take the case of a child with a CEV family member. The fact is covid is here to stay, and we have developed a very effective vaccine that has decoupled infection rates from death rates and largely from hospital admissions. All adults have been double vaccinated if they wish. Children need education and socialisation, for their intellectual, psychological and social development and their mental health.  The situation with covid is not going to change in the medium term, it is what it is. You cannot keep children at home indefinitely, into a third academic year, there are significant risks to doing so. It is not a proportionate response to the risk.
> 
> The idea that ‘any’ parent could do so, without any other family at home with risk factors, is nutty.



Some context required here.

For starters I've said on this forum several time that blame is a pretty useless concept in regard to the pandemic.  Also as a childfree person I try to stay particularly clear of judging parents decisions.  So when I say "wouldn't blame" its in this context.

Some further context is its got to stage now where I disbelieve virtually everything (probably everything) the government says about schools and this pandemic.  They have been lying to our faces throughout and now we've just got to Orwellian levels of double speak.  You also have far more faith in the vaccines then I do so lets see how the next few weeks go.

Even more context is that my brother in law got hospitalised because his wife (my sister) is a teacher.  Last context is that a friend is currently in hospital despite being double vaccinated and covid came into their house via their toddler and an outbreak at a nursery.

I think I already covered the importance of kids being in school in the initial post.

ETA: I also wasn't advocating parents keeping children away from school merely attempting to sympathise with their predicament.


----------



## oryx (Sep 8, 2021)

Edie said:


> He used the phrase ‘any parent’.
> 
> But even if we take the case of a child with a CEV family member. The fact is covid is here to stay, and we have developed a very effective vaccine that has decoupled infection rates from death rates and largely from hospital admissions. All adults have been double vaccinated if they wish. Children need education and socialisation, for their intellectual, psychological and social development and their mental health.  The situation with covid is not going to change in the medium term, it is what it is. You cannot keep children at home indefinitely, into a third academic year, there are significant risks to doing so. It is not a proportionate response to the risk.
> 
> The idea that ‘any’ parent could do so, without any other family at home with risk factors, is nutty.


I don't think it's nutty at all. 

What is nutty is removing all precautions when there's still a pandemic. Obviously the vaccine has made a difference but Covid hasn't gone away.

The vaccine is effective upto a point but people are still getting ill and dying, and being worried enough to keep kids off a school that possibly doesn't even believe Covid is still existent isn't extreme or nutty. I think it's quite a normal reaction even if the vast majority of parents don't put it into practice.

I'm sure parents who think like this have probably considered the effect of a lack of formal schooling (and have experienced difficulties with that during lockdown).


----------



## elbows (Sep 8, 2021)

Edie said:


> He used the phrase ‘any parent’.
> 
> But even if we take the case of a child with a CEV family member. The fact is covid is here to stay, and we have developed a very effective vaccine that has decoupled infection rates from death rates and largely from hospital admissions. All adults have been double vaccinated if they wish. Children need education and socialisation, for their intellectual, psychological and social development and their mental health.  The situation with covid is not going to change in the medium term, it is what it is. You cannot keep children at home indefinitely, into a third academic year, there are significant risks to doing so. It is not a proportionate response to the risk.
> 
> The idea that ‘any’ parent could do so, without any other family at home with risk factors, is nutty.


There is still a direct link between number of cases and number of hospitalisations and deaths. It has been weakened but not broken. So there is no decoupling.

For example Scotland has hit higher peaks for positive cases detected via testing this time than in previous wave. Hospital figures have not hit those levels, but they are still heading rapidly back to the levels  seen last autumn, and thats true for both patients in hospital and patients in mechanical ventilator beds. And it was clear this would happen once their number of positive cases went up, its only a question of waiting a week or so to see trends in positive cases be reflected in hospital trends.

I think there are a range of attitudes from parents and children that are all entirely understandable. And I wouldnt expect everyones attitudes to the pandemic and risk and the extent to which we can return to normal to all evolve at the same pace and feel comfortable in doing so.

Here is a little bit of data for Scotland to visualise what I was on about.



Now if there were no unvaccinated people, that graph wouldnt look as bad. But it would still show the numbers going up when number of positive cases rose. For example recent local news from here in the middle of England said that half of the covid patients in my local hospital had not been double jabbed, which means half had.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Of course schooling is vitally important to kids but right now I wouldn't blame any parent for keeping their kids at home.  I'm very glad I don't have to make these sort of decisions.


I think we could see a massive increase in more-organised home schooling as a result of this. Not just this latest nonsense, but the fundamental shifts in working patterns and general disaffection with the education system.


----------



## Aladdin (Sep 8, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Yeh we do but still want our children in school. Children’s development has been knocked by this with enormous impact on their mental health.



Yes...but I fail to see why covid should be allowed spread through schools ?
It's going to spread ans because school outbreaks wont be counted it will all be registered as community transmission. 
There are plenty kids in schools with asthma and underlying health issues who will suffer more than they should and long covid in a child can really affect their development

I don't understand why kids sat near each other in a classroom where one of them has covid will not be deemed as close contacts.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Sep 8, 2021)

I don't think this is an either/or situation, is it?
The issue is there are _fuck all_ mitigations left in school (other than 'ventilation', but with nothing meaningful having been put into dealing with that), as opposed to what currently exists everywhere _except_ schools (not to say those are great either).


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Yes...but I fail to see why covid should be allowed spread through schools ?
> It's going to spread ans because school outbreaks wont be counted it will all be registered as community transmission.
> There are plenty kids in schools with asthma and underlying health issues who will suffer more than they should and long covid in a child can really affect their development
> 
> I don't understand why kids sat near each other in a classroom where one of them has covid will not be deemed as close contacts.


I think you probably can understand. All you have to do is set aside logic and reason, and replace them with expediency and graft.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 8, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Yes...but I fail to see why covid should be allowed spread through schools ?
> It's going to spread ans because school outbreaks wont be counted it will all be registered as community transmission.
> There are plenty kids in schools with asthma and underlying health issues who will suffer more than they should and long covid in a child can really affect their development
> 
> I don't understand why kids sat near each other in a classroom where one of them has covid will not be deemed as close contacts.



It's not my policy, so I don't know why you're posting that at me like that.

I just don't think this grouping of parents in a way that suggests it's a predicament for all parents is helpful because I don't think it's true. It _was_ a serious predicament for us last year and earlier this year and it might be again very soon but it's a balance of risk, and people have different takes on that.


----------



## Dystopiary (Sep 9, 2021)

Regarding ventilation in schools: 

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/gavin-williamsons-ventilation-failure-schools-covid-19-government-sage-1181619 

[Gavin] Williamson took to the airwaves on Thursday to reassure parents that he had a “programme of CO2 monitors available” to reduce Covid transmission in schools now that pupils are going back for the autumn term. When he was questioned, he conceded that in fact “they are being rolled out during this term”. In reality, schools have not received monitors and they won’t be getting them for some time.


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## wtfftw (Sep 9, 2021)

Is there a plan for inadequately ventilated classrooms? Apart from pretend there are no contacts and no in school transmission.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 9, 2021)

Edie said:


> He used the phrase ‘any parent’.
> 
> But even if we take the case of a child with a CEV family member. The fact is covid is here to stay, and we have developed a very effective vaccine that has decoupled infection rates from death rates and largely from hospital admissions. All adults have been double vaccinated if they wish. Children need education and socialisation, for their intellectual, psychological and social development and their mental health.  The situation with covid is not going to change in the medium term, it is what it is. You cannot keep children at home indefinitely, into a third academic year, there are significant risks to doing so. It is not a proportionate response to the risk.
> 
> The idea that ‘any’ parent could do so, without any other family at home with risk factors, is nutty.


All adults have NOT been double vaccinated even if they DO wish. 

I don't think anyone is arguing kids don't need education and socialisation. The point is that removing all mitigation from the thousands of schools returning this week while numbers of cases continue to be high and deaths are still happening is batshit crazy. The effects of Covid on the young are still being looked at but I don't want my or anyone else's kid getting long covid and can understand why a parent might feel their kid is safer at home.

We're going to end up with a situation where my daughter could catch it by sitting next to a kid who has it but would have no idea because she wouldn't be told. Then she can bring it here, give it to me and before I have symptoms I can distribute it to the 170-odd people I come into contact with weekly.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2021)

Edie said:


> What?! That’s such an extreme position. This has become so polarised there are people on both sides with totally nutty views like this.



It's nutty to consider removing your kids from a place which is unsafe? And also run by lunatics?

The gaslighting alone is going to be seriously harmful to the kids' relationship with the school, which in turn affects their education.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2021)

sheothebudworths said:


> I don't think this is an either/or situation, is it?
> The issue is there are _fuck all_ mitigations left in school (other than 'ventilation', but with nothing meaningful having been put into dealing with that), as opposed to what currently exists everywhere _except_ schools (not to say those are great either).



And ventilation is all well and good in an usually warm September but come January it becomes a health hazard all by itself.


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## Edie (Sep 9, 2021)

So what would you all have continue? Sending bubbles home continuously like the end of last academic year? Kids going in for one day a week or a few days every half term? Or just shut schools and continue parents home educating? Everybody stay in their homes in a national lockdown?

Because no amount of caution and reassurance will be enough for the proportion of the population who are gripped in fear. It’s borderline hysterical in some cases. And it’s whipped up by the media and people continually and obsessively discussing it like on here.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Chicken pox causes hospitalisations and deaths amongst children. The fatality rate for kids is higher than that for COVID, likewise the injury and death rates in road traffic accidents for commuting to school.

People’s sense of risk has been seriously distorted.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 9, 2021)

So there's purifying air ideas... Covid: Air purifier and UV light pilot to combat school virus spread

Which Germany thought of a year ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54599593


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 9, 2021)

I think it's perfectly understandable that people are worried. We're at about 200 deaths a day and not everyone is diving into the figures to see who is dying. Not everyone has been vaccinated, people have families of multiple generations. Kids do get long covid. It's all the same arguments. But now we're not allowed to act on our own assessment of risk which is yet another fucking contradiction in the official approach. And we don't even get to assess risk fully as you could be seeing someone vulnerable but not know your child had been a close contact.
It just feels like there's no mitigation except vaccinations which basically don't exist in school.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2021)

Edie said:


> So what would you all have continue? Sending bubbles home continuously like the end of last academic year? Kids going in for one day a week or a few days every half term? Or just shut schools and continue parents home educating? Everybody stay in their homes in a national lockdown?
> 
> Because no amount of caution and reassurance will be enough for the proportion of the population who are gripped in fear. It’s borderline hysterical in some cases. And it’s whipped up by the media and people continually and obsessively discussing it like on here.



There's no good option on the table thanks to the decision to remove all restrictions two months ago. But simple protective measures that could be happening aren't, for reasons of cost and political narrative-building not for health or education. Lying to parents and kids en masse cannot possibly be the answer.

E2a: As for 'gripped by fear' that's an incredibly loaded statement which implies there is no justification for that fear. There is. People have a right to be afraid, even if it's inconvenient for you.


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## existentialist (Sep 9, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's no good option on the table thanks to the decision to remove all restrictions two months ago. But simple protective measures that could be happening aren't, for reasons of cost and political narrative-building not for health or education. Lying to parents and kids en masses cannot possibly be the answer.
> 
> E2a: As for 'gripped by fear' that's an incredibly loaded statement which implies there is no justification for that fear. There is. People have a right to be afraid, even if it's inconvenient for you.


And, furthermore, there are plenty of people following a cautious, science-based line on this whom I suspect are being lumped into the "gripped by fear" category"...


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

Bear in mind that it's increasingly becoming clear that Covid-19 can cause brain damage, kidney damage etc in the long term, even in mild and asymptomatic cases. The UK is completely alone in choosing to perform this kind of experiment on its young people, all the other nations that have a choice are vaccinating and mitigating as much as they can. It's not unreasonable to want to protect your children from unknown lasting harm.


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

The cynic in me suspects that whilst Germany etc might be worried about the long-term social cost of such a mass disabling event in young people, the Tory scum don't give a fuck because they have no intention of paying for it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> And, furthermore, there are plenty of people following a cautious, science-based line on this whom I suspect are being lumped into the "gripped by fear" category"...



Yeah well it's a category you'd put people in if you had no way to productively respond to what they said.


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## Edie (Sep 9, 2021)

This is crazy. I’m out.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

Kidney injury: COVID-19-associated acute kidney injury: consensus report of the 25th Acute Disease Quality Initiative (ADQI) Workgroup - Nature Reviews Nephrology

Loss of grey matter in the brain: Alarming COVID study indicates long-term loss of gray matter and other brain tissue


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> The UK is completely alone in choosing to perform this kind of experiment on its young people, all the other nations that have a choice are vaccinating and mitigating as much as they can. It's not unreasonable to want to protect your children from unknown lasting harm.



This is simply not true. The rules on e.g. mask-wearing in schools vary a lot, the UK is not an outlier. Likewise so does vaccination of children (e.g. Sweden is doing the same as the UK, only vaccinating vulnerable children).


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> And, furthermore, there are plenty of people following a cautious, science-based line on this whom I suspect are being lumped into the "gripped by fear" category"...



Probably because their particular flavour of "cautious science-based" would look very different if it was applied to the same standard to other aspects of their lives.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 9, 2021)

I have the sense that the inner government actually _want_ children to catch coronavirus because they believe this is the safest way for younger people to develop antibodies.  They want everybody vaccinated and having regular enough re-exposure to keep their immunity to serious disease topped up.  I have been persuaded by this thread that such thinking is wrong-headed but nevertheless, I see signs of this thinking  in those making the decisions.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Probably because their particular flavour of "cautious science-based" would look very different if it was applied to the same standard to other aspects of their lives.


I think the explanation is more likely the one that SpookyFrank offered - that it's a lot easier to dismiss caution as "fear" than it is to answer the questions being raised by the cautious. Same with Brexit and "project fear".


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think the explanation is more likely the one that SpookyFrank offered - that it's a lot easier to dismiss caution as "fear" than it is to answer the questions being raised by the cautious. Same with Brexit and "project fear".



As I said, if such questions were raised in other aspects of their lives where risks were similar, fear rather than caution would be the appropriate word.


----------



## Looby (Sep 9, 2021)

Yes there will be people whose responses and fears might seem disproportionate and possibly are but we don’t know what’s going on for them.
On the other side of this, there are people who seem to give no shits at all and not only act in incredibly inconsiderate and selfish ways but also attack and criticize those who won’t join them.
Most people are in the middle ground though and are making their own risk assessments based on their circumstances, their health worries etc

To dismiss these as ‘gripped by fear’ is really really unhelpful.
As someone with anxiety, I’ve been labelled as anxious more than once when I’ve actually been quite poorly both by friends and relatives but also by medical professionals. It’s fucking horrible to have your real and reasonable worries dismissed and in one case, really dangerous as I had sepsis and ended up having emergency surgery because I took too long to seek medical help.

We need to be really careful about language used here and try to show some understanding and compassion. We’ve all managed this shitshow in different ways and are dealing with relaxing of restrictions. People aren’t mad or crazy if they think it’s been done badly.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Looby said:


> People aren’t mad or crazy if they think it’s been done badly.



It would be nice if this applied to people on both ends of the arguments. I know some perfectly reasonable people who think that potential psychological effects on children of repeated testing, isolation and mask wearing weighs rather heavily against the very low risks from COVID compared to other childhood diseases for which such mitigations were never dreamed of. These people are "making their own risk assessments based on their circumstances, their health worries" but certainly wouldn't be shown any "understanding or compassion" on this thread. 

I'm not sure that many people are on the middle ground. People take their positions and criticise those who don't see things their way. It's all tied up with people's personalities, personal politics and perception of the current government too. 🤷


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> This is simply not true. The rules on e.g. mask-wearing in schools vary a lot, the UK is not an outlier. Likewise so does vaccination of children (e.g. Sweden is doing the same as the UK, only vaccinating vulnerable children).


I don't think the article really substantiates that, where are the countries with insane levels of new cases (greater than the US and Japan put together at the moment) that are so actively abolishing all the mitigations in apparent pursuit of some kind of hybrid immunity? Sweden is admittedly also an outlier, and has been since the beginning of the pandemic, but along with the UK they fall into the category of 'countries that have dealt with the pandemic very badly', so I don't think we should be reassured that they're in our little club


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 9, 2021)

Edie said:


> This is crazy. I’m out.


What's crazy is that you'd happily put people in harm's way to potentially catch a serious illness you yourself were shit scared would kill you when you got it and posted about it on here.


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

N.B. not trying to get at anyone here, it's a shit sandwich and no mistake, and everyone has to deal as best they can. I've got three kids all at different schools, and have been trying to make an impression on them (the schools), but honestly it's not easy.

However talking to the people I know who are things like neuroscientists and immunologists, a lot of them are really alarmed at the moment, as am I, and given that all the govt rhetoric is that it's fine and we should just move on, I think it's important to say that I really don't think that is the case at all; parents in particular should be quite concerned about what's going on at the moment and should be applying as much collective pressure for a change of strategy as we're able.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Chicken pox causes hospitalisations and deaths amongst children. The fatality rate for kids is higher than that for COVID, likewise the injury and death rates in road traffic accidents for commuting to school.
> 
> People’s sense of risk has been seriously distorted.


No adults in schools, then. That right?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 9, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I have the sense that the inner government actually _want_ children to catch coronavirus because they believe this is the safest way for younger people to develop antibodies.  They want everybody vaccinated and having regular enough re-exposure to keep their immunity to serious disease topped up.  I have been persuaded by this thread that such thinking is wrong-headed but nevertheless, I see signs of this thinking  in those making the decisions.



Yes.  I'm pretty sure elbows has written about this previously that there was an apparent government policy of immunity through vaccination for adults and immunity via exposure for kids.

I think that was a while back and now that Delta is really showing its hand the government approach seems to be exposure for all.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

Chicken pox doesn't really have an issue with long term sequelae for most people. You get it, a tiny fraction of people die and the rest of them are just entirely better. We're looking with Covid at 1 in 7 having symptoms that last for months, with some children having been ill pretty much since the start of the pandemic. We don't know if they're going to get better.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> I don't think the article really substantiates that, where are the countries with insane levels of new cases (greater than the US and Japan put together at the moment) that are so actively abolishing all the mitigations in apparent pursuit of some kind of hybrid immunity? Sweden is admittedly also an outlier, and has been since the beginning of the pandemic, but along with the UK they fall into the category of 'countries that have dealt with the pandemic very badly', so I don't think we should be reassured that they're in our little club



Ok, so you changed your point from “all the other nations that have a choice are vaccinating and mitigating as much as they can”, which is demonstrably untrue,  to “where are the countries with insane levels of new cases (greater than the US and Japan put together at the moment) that are so actively abolishing all the mitigations in apparent pursuit of some kind of hybrid immunity” which is something else entirely.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> Chicken pox doesn't really have an issue with long term sequelae for most people. You get it, a tiny fraction of people die and the rest of them are just entirely better. We're looking with Covid at 1 in 7 having symptoms that last for months, with some children having been ill pretty much since the start of the pandemic. We don't know if they're going to get better.



Chicken pox is a good comparator for deaths, as it’s more deadly than COVID for children. If you want a comparator for other effects, how about glandular fever. There was a kid in my class at school who had to repeat a year because it totally wiped him out. Glandular fever is infectious for seven weeks before symptoms show, and is only transmissible by direct contact with bodily fluids such as through kissing or sharing drinks. No one ever dreamed of restricting those things for under 18s due to glandular fever’s long term effects did they?


----------



## existentialist (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It would be nice if this applied to people on both ends of the arguments. I know some perfectly reasonable people who think that potential psychological effects on children of repeated testing, isolation and mask wearing weighs rather heavily against the very low risks from COVID compared to other childhood diseases for which such mitigations were never dreamed of. These people are "making their own risk assessments based on their circumstances, their health worries" but certainly wouldn't be shown any "understanding or compassion" on this thread.
> 
> I'm not sure that many people are on the middle ground. People take their positions and criticise those who don't see things their way. It's all tied up with people's personalities, personal politics and perception of the current government too. 🤷


Is it any wonder that people are "making their own risk assessments" when it is so patently clear that such assessments as the Government are doing are flimsy, futile, and transparently obviously aimed at achieving the underlying objective - "getting back to normal ASAP"?


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Chicken pox is a good comparator for deaths, as it’s more deadly than COVID for children. If you want a comparator for other effects, how about glandular fever. There was a kid in my class at school who had to repeat a year because it totally wiped him out. Glandular fever is infectious for seven weeks before symptoms show, and is only transmissible by direct contact with bodily fluids such as through kissing or sharing drinks. No one ever dreamed of restricting those things for under 18s due to glandular fever’s long term effects did they?



We're just not talking about the same scale at all here. There have been 2000 hospitalizations of children due to Covid in the last two months. There are thousands of infections in children per day, of which it's becoming clear that a signifiant proportion will be affected in the long term in an immediate and obvious way, and we have no idea what proportion might be adversely affected in ways that may only become apparent later on, but honestly the indications at the moment are not good at all.

Genuinely don't know where you're going with this. Clearly there are obviously other diseases, and some of those diseases are also bad, but Covid-19 is the novel pandemic disease that we should be taking much more seriously right at the moment.


----------



## Edie (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> We're just not talking about the same scale at all here. There have been 2000 hospitalizations of children due to Covid in the last two months. There are thousands of infections in children per day, of which it's becoming clear that a signifiant proportion will be affected in the long term in an immediate and obvious way, and we have no idea what proportion might be adversely affected in ways that may only become apparent later on, but honestly the indications at the moment are not good at all.
> 
> Genuinely don't know where you're going with this. Clearly there are obviously other diseases, and some of those diseases are also bad, but Covid-19 is the novel pandemic disease that we should be taking much more seriously right at the moment.


What should we be doing then Fruitloop ?


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> Genuinely don't know where you're going with this. Clearly there are obviously other diseases, and some of those diseases are also bad, but Covid-19 is the novel pandemic disease that we should be taking much more seriously right at the moment.



Why should we be taking COVID much more seriously than other diseases? Surely we should compare the risks to other diseases and take proportionate responses.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

We should be taking it as seriously as any other disease that causes multi-system organ damage, including to the heart, lungs, kidney and brain, that we have 40 thousand cases of per motherfucking day at the moment.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

Edie said:


> What should we be doing then Fruitloop ?


Vaccinate 12-15 year olds. CO2 monitors in schools, HEPA filters in classrooms. Mask everyone who can wear one. Stop forcing clinically vulnerable children or children with clinically vulnerable parents etc back into schools that aren't safe for them  - provide some good online options instead. Drive community transmission down, and use the breathing space to build a functioning test trace and isolate system. Basically all the stuff we should have done a year and a half ago, that would have meant many thousands of people who are now dead would still be alive, and we wouldn't have suffered the social and economic damage that hoping it would all sort of blow over has caused.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Hate to be a misery but looking at the NI and Scotland number pre/post schools opening and that give some scale 

That said, this week I have tested over 1000 sixth form students and only logged 9 positive tests.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> Vaccinate 12-15 year olds. CO2 monitors in schools, HEPA filters in classrooms. Mask everyone who can wear one. Stop forcing clinically vulnerable children or children with clinically vulnerable parents etc back into schools that aren't safe for them  - provide some good online options instead. Drive community transmission down, and use the breathing space to build a functioning test trace and isolate system. Basically all the stuff we should have done a year and a half ago, that would have meant many thousands of people who are now dead would still be alive, and we wouldn't have suffered the social and economic damage that hoping it would all sort of blow over has caused.



Aside from vaccinations which a separate issue, none of these measures would reduce the number of children who catch COVID, only the rate at which they do so.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

I don't think it's a separate issue. Use mitigations to buy time in order to vaccinate everybody, then continue with necessary mitigations and testing/supported isolation to drive the numbers down to the level where infection is not an inevitability. It's only inevitable here because the disease is being allowed to spread almost unhindered.

What's not sustainable is the current strategy, we are going to end up with a variant with much greater vaccine escape, and then we'll be back where we were in the previous waves.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> I don't think it's a separate issue. Use mitigations to buy time in order to vaccinate everybody, then continue with necessary mitigations and testing/supported isolation to drive the numbers down to the level where infection is not an inevitability. It's only inevitable here because the disease is being allowed to spread almost unhindered.
> 
> What's not sustainable is the current strategy, we are going to end up with a variant with much greater vaccine escape, and then we'll be back where we were in the previous waves.



We don’t need more time to vaccinate everybody anymore. You could argue we need more time to decide whether to vaccinate 12-15 year olds, but by the time any of your proposed measures would have reduced the rate sufficiently, that decision will have been made.

Getting to a test and isolate stage like NZ isn’t feasible without stringent measures such as a lengthy new lockdown, and there’s no evidence that on balance that would be beneficial for children.

The emergence of a variant with much greater vaccine escape is unlikely. Even so, the likelhood of that happening is not materially affected but whatever restrictions we place or don’t place on schools.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

This is just not correct. By allowing gigantic numbers of cases in a partially-vaccinated population we're exerting a huge selection pressure on the virus to overcome the obstacles to transmission that we've put in its way, whilst giving it trilions of opportunities to strike it lucky with a mutation that will allow it to do so. It's madness, that risks squandering the gains that the vaccines have brought us.

I have no idea why it's taken so long to make no meaningful decision on vaccination for teens, we are way behind the curve of countries that have been effective in dealing with the pandemic.

The irony is that taking an approach that is diametrically opposed to the one that NZ has taken has seen much longer and more stringent lockdowns that they have had, and really no period since the beginning of the pandemic where it has been possible to live in the way that we did before. And for this 150,000 people have died.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Hate to be a misery but looking at the NI and Scotland number pre/post schools opening and that give some scale
> 
> That said, this week I have tested over 1000 sixth form students and only logged 9 positive tests.


Yes I'd say the risk of a big spike in cases is there and on many peoples minds, but at the same time I do not make the assumption that we are certain to see that happen in England. And I havent seen signs of it in English data yet, although it will be another week before I start to make claims based on that.

I'll also point out that a big reason closing schools has an impact when trying to manage a bad pandemic is that schools being closed has a big effect on the number and frequency of contacts between adults. So its not just a question of transmission within schools themselves. That sort of transmission does happen but the scale of it may not be a key difference maker in whether a pandemic wave is under control or not.

I would not close schools at this stage. I would look at what other countries are doing with sensible mitigation measures in schools.

Certainly dont listen to shitheads who seek to write off concerns as being those of extreme weirdos. 'Pull yourself together' type sentiments from people with lousy pandemic track records are useless and should be dismissed. The return to a more normal sense of risk is a much messier affair than that and confidence-building efforts are delicate and take time. Indeed one of the reasons this governments desire to rush back to normal ends up being counterproductive is that this is not how faith is inspired, you dont get there by doing too little, too late, or by trying to write off concerns in a grubby manner.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> This is just not correct. By allowing gigantic numbers of cases in a partially-vaccinated population we're exerting a huge selection pressure on the virus to overcome the obstacles to transmission that we've put in its way, whilst giving it trilions of opportunities to strike it lucky with a mutation that will allow it to do so. It's madness, that risks squandering the gains that the vaccines have brought us.



There are millions of current infections globally, our numbers are tiny, and the number of partially vaccinated children in our schools is much tinier still. Besides, it's unlikely the virus even has the capacity to overcome the vaccines in that way to the extent you worry about.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Anyone claiming that numbers here are tiny is absolutely full of shit.


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## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Getting ugly in NI 

Covid-19: Northern Ireland health system 'one step from chaos' 

Covid-19 cases have tripled since schools went back.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> Anyone claiming that numbers here are tiny is absolutely full of shit.



India has 209 million partially vaccinated people, the UK has 4.76 million.

The number of partially vaccinated people in the UK compared to the world is tiny.

If you think that being partially vaccinated creates a risk of escape mutations, the proportion of that risk caused by UK restrictions or the absence of them is tiny.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Getting ugly in NI
> 
> Covid-19: Northern Ireland health system 'one step from chaos'
> 
> Covid-19 cases have tripled since schools went back.


I dont think I can make that claim about number of positive cases in Northern Ireland.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> India has 209 million partially vaccinated people, the UK has 4.76 million.
> 
> The number of partially vaccinated people in the UK compared to the world is tiny.
> 
> If you think that being partially vaccinated creates a risk of escape mutations, the proportion of that risk caused by UK restrictions or the absence of them is tiny.


Ah I thought you were talking about number of cases, sorry about that.

I think the concerns about escape mutants are less about partially-vaccinated people these days and more about escape due to number of fully vaccinated people combined with number of cases of infection.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> Ah I thought you were talking about number of cases, sorry about that.
> 
> I think the concerns about escape mutants are less about partially-vaccinated people these days and more about escape due to number of fully vaccinated people combined with number of cases of infection.



I was just responding to Fruitloop who raised partial vaccination in the context of controlling case numbers in schools. I don't think it should be a consideration.

I don't think worries about possible escape mutants should affect societal controls on the fully vaccinated either, but perhaps this is not the thread for that.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Yeah its not really on my list of concerns in this schools context.

Unknowns about long covid are the biggest pain in the arse for me at this stage, in regards childrens health and this virus. Some studies are now available but its still early days. And they have to be careful when reaching conclusions because very large numbers of teenagers typically report fatigue etc in non-Covid times.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

Should have been more clear, it's the population that is partially vaccinnated. We're exposing vaccinated people to the virus thousand and thousands of times a day, pretty much daring it to find a way around the defenses. In that situation it almost certainly will, it's just a matter of time.


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

On the one hand, I think taking away measures in schools that were easy to implement was a stupid idea. On the other hand I'm not sure bubbles and masks did anything, well at least not in secondary schools where the children all mixed on the way to school and after. 
I don't think I could cope with my children being sent home constantly again. Mostly because of the disruption to them and the impact on their mental health and socialisation. But also because as a parent, I had no rights to be at home when they were isolating; I even ended up owing my workplace money/hours at the end of the year because I had taken two days off when my child was sent home to isolate. There were times where they were a bubble of 90 and sent home when they barely knew the infected person. On the other hand, how close should a close contact be? If it's the person sitting next to you in class that's one thing, but once you start sending whole classes home, the education system for those children collapses as it becomes a revolving door of infection.  
I just want my children at school. But looking at the number of staff off with Covid 19 already, I don't see how schools will be able to fully operate as there's going to be ongoing massive staff shortages. 
There's no good solution to this is there.


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## platinumsage (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> Should have been more clear, it's the population that is partially vaccinnated. We're exposing vaccinated people to the virus thousand and thousands of times a day, pretty much daring it to find a way around the defenses. In that situation it almost certainly will, it's just a matter of time.



It's not "just a matter of time". It may be physically impossible for the virus to mutate to such an extent that it both evades vaccines to cause serious disease and death, and also retains its transmissiblity. In any case the likelihood of that happening is a function of the number of infections globally, and the UK is a small country.


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> Kidney injury: COVID-19-associated acute kidney injury: consensus report of the 25th Acute Disease Quality Initiative (ADQI) Workgroup - Nature Reviews Nephrology
> 
> Loss of grey matter in the brain: Alarming COVID study indicates long-term loss of gray matter and other brain tissue


Oh fuck. That is no good. 😟


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> As I said, if such questions were raised in other aspects of their lives where risks were similar, fear rather than caution would be the appropriate word.



I am of the opinion that doctors are obliged to do no harm.
And in that context alone whoever is signing off on removing protections for children is 100% culpable if kids develop long covid and brain injury or organ damage after being exposed to covin in school.

Of course government will deny they got it in school. And its clear that over here the testing will stop for kids and all will be told that only friends out of school will be considered close contacts.
They are already saying to schools here that there will be no more sharing of info and asymptomatic kids will be going to school.

So..our numbers are now very high. Highest incidence in Europe.

And those unvaccinated or not fully vaccinated or those with poor vacc response are all to be thrown to the lions. Basically.


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## zahir (Sep 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> how close should a close contact be? If it's the person sitting next to you in class that's one thing, but once you start sending whole classes home, the education system for those children collapses as it becomes a revolving door of infection.



As the virus is airborne the risk is to everyone in the class. You could compare it to the spread of cigarette smoke if someone is smoking in the room - you might be worse off sitting next to the smoker but the smoke still gets everywhere.


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

zahir said:


> As the virus is airborne the risk is to everyone in the class. You could compare it to the spread of cigarette smoke if someone is smoking in the room - you might be worse off sitting next to the smoker but the smoke still gets everywhere.


Well exactly. So what's the solution then, children being constantly sent home from school to isolate, for the 3rd year in a row?

That's why there is no good solution. I don't blame parents who don't want to send their kids in, nor parents like me who do.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

We are 18 months into pandemic mitigations, so talk of a 3rd year is strange to me.

The picture continues to evolve. There may be setbacks along the way, but gradually there is still some progress due to changing levels of population immunity from both infections and vaccination.

The very best way to reduce disruption to schools is to control the levels of prevalance more comprehensively in wider society. This government arent so interested in that, so childrens education has been disrupted more than it needed to be. This was especially obvious a year ago when the government were told for months by SAGE etc that they needed to keep a lid on community infections in order to allow more wiggle room for schools to operate. They decided to be ostriches about that and ultimately that resulted in a prolonged period of school closures again. The extent to which that pattern will repeat this school year is currently unclear. We have some advantages this time due to the changed immunity picture, but we are starting the term with far higher rates of viral prevalence at this point of the calendar in 2021 compared to 2020.


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

Sadly governments don't care about kids. They dont have a vote and they will run their stupid herd immunity experiment to the detriment of some of those kids...some of whom will grow up injured by this stupidity. 

Make no mistake. This is about getting parents back to work out of the home and getting businesses open. 
The government will hide the  numbers of kids actually getting covid in school...because they will not record those figures. 

It's an appalling lie.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Make no mistake. This is about getting parents back to work out of the home and getting businesses open.


And as I always say, thats why closing schools works so strongly as a lockdown brake. Because it affects adults a lot and reduces their mixing opportunities.


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## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Sisters primary school kids in Yorkshire went back yesterday. Now they have 15% of staff isolating


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It's not "just a matter of time". It may be physically impossible for the virus to mutate to such an extent that it both evades vaccines to cause serious disease and death, and also retains its transmissiblity. In any case the likelihood of that happening is a function of the number of infections globally, and the UK is a small country.


Some further reading in the form of a paper from July, which is mostly looking at international vaccine issues but includes plenty on the domenstic situation and the numerous unknowns on this front.

International vaccination: Potential impact on viral evolution and UK public health, 21 July 2021


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> We are 18 months into pandemic mitigations, so talk of a 3rd year is strange to me.
> 
> The picture continues to evolve. There may be setbacks along the way, but gradually there is still some progress due to changing levels of population immunity from both infections and vaccination.
> 
> The very best way to reduce disruption to schools is to control the levels of prevalance more comprehensively in wider society. This government arent so interested in that, so childrens education has been disrupted more than it needed to be. This was especially obvious a year ago when the government were told for months by SAGE etc that they needed to keep a lid on community infections in order to allow more wiggle room for schools to operate. They decided to be ostriches about that and ultimately that resulted in a prolonged period of school closures again. The extent to which that pattern will repeat this school year is currently unclear. We have some advantages this time due to the changed immunity picture, but we are starting the term with far higher rates of viral prevalence at this point of the calendar in 2021 compared to 2020.


I work in school years. 

I know all of this but it's too late to fix the government's fuck up now.


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I work in school years.
> 
> I know all of this but it's too late to fix the government's fuck up now.




Shoot them. ... with darts full of covid.


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## Glitter (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> We are 18 months into pandemic mitigations, so talk of a 3rd year is strange to me.


We’ve just started the third school year.

Kids started Sept ‘19 - lockdown March 20.
Sept ‘20 - July 21 - full school year of covid measures and disruption. 
Sept ‘21 - new school year starts


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sisters primary school kids in Yorkshire went back yesterday. Now they have 15% of staff isolating


Over here they are going to tell staff that they are not considered close contacts if a kid in class has covid. 
Neither will the rest of the class be considered a close contact. 
And unless you're symptomatic you will be going to school.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Fair enough regarding school years.

How long it goes on isnt really relevant to the key parameters anyway, which remain hospital pressure as a result of this pandemic virus. And the 'if not now then when?' brigade are therefore marching to a ridiculous beat. That shit is just used to pander to dull agendas that will not override the basic public health realities, no matter how hard they try.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

And yes, childrens education and mental health are also part of basic public health realities. So I am not advocating having schools closed at this stage. I am advocating that we ridicule those who want to be pandemic ostriches and make bogus claims that now is the moment we can return to normality. That way just invites more strong measures to be forced upon everyone further down the line.


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## zahir (Sep 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I know all of this but it's too late to fix the government's fuck up now.



The possibility is always there to act to suppress the number of cases. It's a political choice.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> I am advocating that we ridicule those who want to be pandemic ostriches and make bogus claims that now is the moment we can return to normality.


And just to be totally clear about where I stand on that....

I see the return to relative normality as a journey. At this stage of the pandemic, it is reasonable for that journey to have begun. It is not reasonable to expect everyone to rapidly reach the final destination. And more people would be on board for that journey if it was conducted at a suitably slow pace, with all sorts of measures designed to limit infections and increase confidence.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 9, 2021)

For a start, we need to put a stop to this fuxking madness:


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## existentialist (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> For a start, we need to put a stop to this fuxking madness:



I think it was a tweet from the Good Law Project which suggested that any prosecution of parents for not sending their kids to school would be unlikely to succeed in the circumstances, but it isn't fair to put parents into the position of not knowing whether or not they'd be prosecuted for doing little more than following what has been Government advice up until now, and for which the only reason any change has happened clearly has nothing to do with the prevalence of Covid, in schools or elsewhere.

I hope every parent put in this position remembers this when their next opportunity to walk into a voting booth arises. Or, for that matter, the next time they find themselves with a quantity of empty bottles, some petrol, and a few rags.


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

zahir said:


> The possibility is always there to act to suppress the number of cases. It's a political choice.


I'm not against most measures. Masks, sure. Bubbles, check. Testing, fine. But the mass closing of schools for extended periods, I can't get behind that and the government has already shown consistently that that's what they will allow to happen. That schools are not as important as football matches and international travel for example. 
So I feel like we're talking in the hypothetical when we talk about the government taking action. That's why I'm envisaging a situation that I see as realistic with this government, that no such measures will be put in place to mitigate the infections in school.


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## zahir (Sep 9, 2021)

Fruitloop said:


> For a start, we need to put a stop to this fuxking madness:




I wonder if schools or head teachers as individuals would be open to legal action over the consequences of this.


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## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Not a school but my team have been testing at a sixth form all this week. Vaccinations next week. 

So far we have done over 1500 LFTs and had less than 10 positive tests. Surprising good


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

zahir said:


> I wonder if schools or head teachers as individuals would be open to legal action over the consequences of this.



Yes


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## existentialist (Sep 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I'm not against most measures. Masks, sure. Bubbles, check. Testing, fine. But the mass closing of schools for extended periods, I can't get behind that and the government has already shown consistently that that's what they will allow to happen. That schools are not as important as football matches and international travel for example.
> So I feel like we're talking in the hypothetical when we talk about the government taking action. That's why I'm envisaging a situation that I see as realistic with this government, that no such measures will be put in place to mitigate the infections in school.


I agree that the mass closing of schools can't go on, but I refuse to believe that the only solution is simply to open and operate the schools regardless. There HAS to be a better way than that, but we're not going to find it all the time that the Government is setting everything up as a simplistic binary choice between isolation and letting the virus run riot...and lying about the latter.


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I agree that the mass closing of schools can't go on, but I refuse to believe that the only solution is simply to open and operate the schools regardless. There HAS to be a better way than that, but we're not going to find it all the time that the Government is setting everything up as a simplistic binary choice between isolation and letting the virus run riot...and lying about the latter.


The solution is strict measures across society outside of school. I don't see a public appetite for that.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> The solution is strict measures across society outside of school. I don't see a public appetite for that.



Polling in the past tended to indicate more support for stronger measures than the government were prepared to go for.

I'd certainly have expected a more sensible attitude to that stuff to have been possible if our politicians and media had behaved appropriately in this pandemic.

I dont have any very recent figures in regards such attitudes towards restrictions, but I note this recent polling about a number of school issues:



			https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/7-10-parents-worried-about-their-children-catching-covid-19-when-they-return-school


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## Sue (Sep 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> The solution is strict measures across society outside of school. I don't see a public appetite for that.


I think you might be surprised. I don't have kids but I'd certainly see the benefit of stricter measures to make things better for schools. I don't think I'm alone in that -- most folk have friends/family with kids after all and are well aware of how hard it's all been/still is.


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> Polling in the past tended to indicate more support for stronger measures than the government were prepared to go for.
> 
> I'd certainly have expected a more sensible attitude to that stuff to have been possible if our politicaians and media had behaved appropriately in this pandemic.
> 
> ...


I'd be happy to see them try. But as I said, I can't really discuss the hypothetical ifs any more of what would have happened if they'd done the right thing.
I don't see or hear people in favour of tightening things up around me. Everyone is out around me, en mass.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

The normalisation agenda certainly gained far more traction during the vaccine era, but even the government may be forced to try to change attitudes towards that in the months ahead. I dont think its a given though, especially as its currently unclear to me whether we will actually see a huge spike in cases with the schools back open.


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

Sue said:


> I think you might be surprised. I don't have kids but I'd certainly see the benefit of stricter measures to make things better for schools. I don't think I'm alone in that -- most folk have friends/family with kids after all and are well aware of how hard it's all been/still is.


But first the government would have to propose so we're talking in make believe again 😂


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## nagapie (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> The normalisation agenda certainly gained far more traction during the vaccine era, but even the government may be forced to try to change attitudes towards that in the months ahead. I dont think its a given though, especially as its currently unclear to me whether we will actually see a huge spike in cases with the schools back open.


That's nice to know. I thought it was a given.


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

Its basically the under 12s, immunocompromised and extremely vulnerable who will be affected adversely.
Everyone else who is vaccinated is safe in the lifeboat.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Its basically the under 12s, immunocompromised and extremely vulnerable who will be affected adversely.
> Everyone else who is vaccinated is safe in the lifeboat.


I wouldnt make that claim, especially not given recently published data such as that which I posted about earlier:        #41,880     

Some people who dont consider themselves to fit into those groups still wont end up being fully protected by vaccines.


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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> I wouldnt make that claim, especially not given recently published data such as that which I posted about earlier:        #41,880
> 
> Some people who dont consider themselves to fit into those groups still wont end up being fully protected by vaccines.




Fair enough.
Its even worse then..
😳


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Its not a brilliant situation but despite my cautious approach I in no way exclude the possibility that the return to relative normality will still be able to proceed, just not as quickly as some of the pandemic fucknuts would like. Failure is still possible, but it is no longer an absolute certainty in my book due to the huge combination of unknowns, and the changing immunity picture.


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## planetgeli (Sep 9, 2021)

Fourth positive out of 20 staff today. We've been back a week.

Tried to book PCR at my local. Which is Carmarthen. They have 500 a day capacity. By 11am this morning they were taking no more appointments. Next nearest is Llanelli. They have nearly 500 slots a day. By 11am they had only 40 spots left.


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## zahir (Sep 9, 2021)

Thread on cases in Scotland


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## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)




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## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)




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## two sheds (Sep 9, 2021)

Incidentally, I'm not sure that comparing coronavirus favourably with chicken pox and glandular fever is quite right. If we'd had 160,000 deaths from glandular fever over the last 18 months with the number of new cases we have now for covid, then I think glandular fever would be taken just as seriously.


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## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)




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## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




This is now the new policy in Ireland too.


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## spanglechick (Sep 9, 2021)

What I keep coming back to, and perhaps elbows could shed some light on the matter, is: could this be as good as it gets?

I mean, what’s realistic in terms of hoping for a “post COVID” world? Are we waiting for a better vaccine? Will the virus just give up?

Because socially, I can’t see anything getting stricter than in lockdown one.  And given that vaccination is now commonplace, and hospitalisation much rarer (notwithstanding the kind of long term complications that just don’t capture the public imagination), I can’t see there being another lockdown unless we get a variant that starts killing children.  So if draconian social restrictions are in the past, do we actually stand a chance of living life without COVID?

And what kind of timescale are we looking at? Because 3 academic years is a tonne.  But if we’re looking at another two, or another five, until people can stop being scared, then we need to either reinvent education, or start trying to come to terms with this illness as an inevitability.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

It is expected that over time the immunity picture will continue to evolve. More vaccines, new vaccines, boosters, more people that have already been infected at least once. This will lead to further changes in our susceptibility to the virus and how many hospitalisations and deaths it causes. Gains on this front can also be lost via waning immunity and new variants, but even so that isnt widely considered likely to lead us totally back to square one. A pandemic is a pandemic because the virus is novel to humans, and that novelty inevitably wears off given enough time. I've heard at least one professional say they use a rule of thumb that pandemics can last about 3 years before the picture becomes so obviously different to the acute pandemic phases. I cannot offer that sort of indication of timescale myself, I dont know.

We should also expect further improvements to treatments over time. And more data about what sort of threat long covid actually represents.

So I dont expect recent months to be the ultimate guide as to what 'learning to live with covid' will look like for years to come. But I cant get too carried away because there could also be setbacks along this road. And also we havent seen what the current Delta variant can do when combined with winter and the rest of the UK picture.

In regards draconian measures, I think there are misperceptions about what levels fo hospitalisation this virus is still causing, in summer with our current levels of immunity. Just because the numbers dont rival previous waves peaks doesnt mean they are in any way insignificant. For example Scotland has 928 covid patients in hospital in the most recent figure. They had 2053 at the peak of their winter wave. They have 87 covid patients in mechanical ventilation beds, their winter peak figure was 161. Those numbers are still bad, just because they are lower than peak figures people saw in previous waves doesnt mean they are comfortable levels for the health system to cope with. So there is not as much wiggle room for the authorities as people may imagine. The authorities still hope to avoid having to impose further restrictions, but if numbers were to climb much further then such decisions would start to look more inevitable, no new variant may be required for that outcome to be plausible this coming autumn and winter. And if that is avoided, it will probably be due to the improving immunity picture I mentioned earlier in this post.

People will stop being scared at different times. Its still relatively early days in pandemic terms, many people will travel far from their current feelings about this virus given sufficient time. The extent to which some measures will remain and become part of a future normal is currently unclear. 

Should we end up in a situation where we have to come to terms with quite large numbers of infections on an ongoing basis, there are all sorts of implications. Under those circumstances then part of learning to live with covid will mean permanently reconfiguring the health system and its capacity, so that it can handle a higher covid burden permanently without melting. And thats just one example of how changes elsewhere can impact what has to be done to in other sectors like education in order to cope.

Personally I dont intend to come to terms with the situation fully at any stage until the picture is more settled. A fairly wide range of possibilities still exists. People will adapt and will even come to terms with overall changes to life expectancy if that becomes an enduring legacy of this virus. But thats a somewhat different issue to what level of hospitalisations the systems and authorities can cope with at particular moments. Until a permanent grip is gotten on that, we can still be buffeted around and childrens education affected by emergency responses to nasty waves of this virus. Which is also worth thinking about in another possible future context, which is one where we have the virus under control and are 'living with it' most of the time, but where nasty epidemic waves could still appear every few years that require restrictions for a period.


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## elbows (Sep 9, 2021)

Or to put it another way, we are not yet in the phase of the pandemic where peoples attitudes to the virus and how seriously we should take it are the key difference maker that is blocking a sustained return to normal.

Those attitudes are one factor, and would be expected to become more of a key one over time. So when we are further into that stage then my own attitudes about that stuff will change. I wont be butting heads so much with people who think we should be getting on with normal life more. But make no mistake, we are still at the stage where authorities worry about hospital systems being overloaded by this virus. Thats the big driving force that will determine a lot of what we have to live through in the next 6 months. Thats what could lead to authorities rhetoric shifting again in similar ways to those we've become accustomed to in the last 18 months, and I cannot confidently assure anyone that we are beyond that point yet. We could be, but I wouldnt expect to be able to really tell until we actually got through the more difficult seasons at least once without measures having to be triggered.


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## Elpenor (Sep 10, 2021)

Mates daughter, 6 went off school earlier this week with covid (caught via her brother).

Now in hospital on a covid ward and being given antibiotics, told it may be a severe case and potential long covid.


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## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

Another not school but worth mentioning...


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## Badgers (Sep 11, 2021)

NEW: Our challenge to Gavin Williamson over unlawful school guidance for Covid-vulnerable families - Good Law Project
					

Our lawyers have written to Education Secretary Gavin Williamson today, asking him to urgently clarify school attendance guidance so that it considers the needs of vulnerable families – and threatening formal legal proceedings if he...




					goodlawproject.org


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## Elpenor (Sep 11, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Mates daughter, 6 went off school earlier this week with covid (caught via her brother).
> 
> Now in hospital on a covid ward and being given antibiotics, told it may be a severe case and potential long covid.


A follow up message

“(My mates daughter) has been in the children Covid ward since Thursday, not in ICU though.  she has PIMS Paediatric Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome.   Took a while but they’ve got her on some strong roids yesterday for three days to fight the infection.   On antibiotics as a precaution.  Her breathing, heart rare and temp were all high but coming down now.  Cardiologist and doctor was quite positive that it will clear up.  Will be in for at least another week and they won’t say more than that until infection comes down.”

Him and his wife have been at the hospital throughout. It seems like she’s going to be pull through but what a worry, I really hope the government crack on and continue the vaccination programme for schoolchildren.


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 11, 2021)

Sincerely hope the little one makes a full recovery but the way you worded this implies her parents sent to school knowing she had Covid??


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 11, 2021)

It’s probably my wording, all I know is that my mate followed the guidelines laid out by the school -  (whatever they are - I don’t actually know them as I don’t have any kids to be responsible for).


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## _Russ_ (Sep 11, 2021)

Guidelines is one thing, common sense and consideration for others is often something entirely different


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## Elpenor (Sep 11, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Guidelines is one thing, common sense and consideration for others is often something entirely different


My mate is someone who has both of those qualities in abundance, I am certainly not going to ask him in forensic detail to explain his actions in chronological order to satisfy you chum


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 12, 2021)

Righto, hopefully you accept that your  wording gave an opposite impression


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## elbows (Sep 13, 2021)

Not being open about which schools have outbreaks seems to be a feature of this phase.

eg in my local news:









						Public health confirms 'a number of schools' with Covid cases and outbreaks
					

Schools opened for the new term last week




					www.coventrytelegraph.net
				






> CoventryLive understands three of these schools hit by positive cases during the first week of the new term are in the Nuneaton area, two primary and one secondary.
> 
> But unlike previously, Public Health Warwickshire will not confirm the identity of any of the schools, but a spokesman has said it is working with a number of schools in the county.



There is the potential for this sort of withholding of information to be counterproductive to the authorities aims, if people fill the void with rumour, fear and suspicion.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 13, 2021)

Seeing a fair few of these...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Seeing a fair few of these...




There are no close contacts any more. They've been abolished by fiat.


----------



## elbows (Sep 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> There are no close contacts any more. They've been abolished by fiat.



It will drive people crazy.

On paper the concept of close contacts still exists, even for children, but the implications have all been changed.

Self-isolation is no longer a part of it if you are double-vaccinated or under 18 and a half years of age. 

If contacted by NHS Test & Trace then things like taking a PCR test even without symptoms is still part of the response. But I expect they have also shifted the definition of close contact and so the extent to which this will happen with children at school remains to be seen. They explicitly mention that children aged 4 and under wont usually be asked to take a test, so that implies older children may still find themselves being asked to take one.



> NHS Test and Trace will contact you to let you know that you have been identified as a contact and check whether you are legally required to self-isolate. If you are not legally required to self-isolate you will be provided with advice on testing and given guidance on preventing the spread of COVID-19. Even if you do not have symptoms, you will be advised to have a PCR test as soon as possible. Children aged 4 and under will not be advised to take a test unless the positive case was someone in their own household.








						[Withdrawn] [Withdrawn] Guidance for contacts of people with confirmed coronavirus (COVID-19) infection who do not live with the person
					






					www.gov.uk
				




I expect other official page(s) exist that deal more explicitly with schools, but they will be so hideous that I cannot bring myself to look for them right now. Instead here is another quote from the aforementioned page. As per its wording, a child can still in theory be identified as a close contact, but they will still be expected to go to school.



> Children and young people aged under 18 years 6 months who usually attend an education or childcare setting and who have been identified as a close contact should continue to attend the setting as normal. They do not need to wear a face covering within the setting, but it is expected and recommended that these are worn when travelling on public or dedicated transport.



More ammunition for my view that this country has suffered under an absurd and ridiculous establishment for many lifetimes, and the pandemic simply illuminates the shit that was always there.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 13, 2021)

The specific schools advice says it's only people identified as close contacts by the ill child or parents who will be informed as per and by test and trace.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 13, 2021)

All my office colleagues went out Friday night. Meal, two pubs and two nightclubs for most of them, the last apparently packed. All but one of them hadn't taken an LFT when returning to college today. I've asked them individually to do one as a favour to me tonight. Slightly astonished I had to ask.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 13, 2021)

We started back at college today, and I've ordered another pack of LFTs in celebration.

I was rather dismayed at the proportion of students in the common areas masking their chins, or doing the nose-over. I may order another pack of LFTs and start testing more regularly.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> We started back at college today, and I've ordered another pack of LFTs in celebration.
> 
> I was rather dismayed at the proportion of students in the common areas masking their chins, or doing the nose-over. I may order another pack of LFTs and start testing more regularly.


I think I'd guess I've seen three students total sporting masks in the week they've been back (out of literally hundreds). Maybe half a dozen staff. We have one of the highest if not THE highest number of cases per 100k in the land and mask wearing is completely up to individuals.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I think I'd guess I've seen three students total sporting masks in the week they've been back (out of literally hundreds). Maybe half a dozen staff. We have one of the highest if not THE highest number of cases per 100k in the land and mask wearing is completely up to individuals.


The Estates people at this college are proper Gestapo*, and they've been enforcing mask-wearing pretty rigorously. But I think the student response has been to chin their masks, so they can flick them up quickly when they spot the "fuzz" prowling  

* A kinder comparison might be the bledlows of Unseen University - bulky, steady chaps (almost exclusively chaps) with a dogged aim of enforcing the many and various College rules and regulations. Without fear or favour - tutors are not exempt from their attentions


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## _Russ_ (Sep 13, 2021)

In all seriousness,  those who know/think they will be fine but also know/think that they could give it to someone that could end up dead yet dont care disgusts me. (and lets face it most university students not masking up fit this description) Im not tolerant of selfish cunts and dont hold youth as an excuse at that age they know what they are doing


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## existentialist (Sep 13, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> In all seriousness,  those who know/think they will be fine but also know/think that they could give it to someone that could end up dead yet dont care disgusts me. (and lets face it most university students not masking up fit this description) Im not tolerant of selfish cunts and dont hold youth as an excuse at that age they know what they are doing


But, like my step-daughter once pointed out to me, you have to choose which hill you want to die on. My getting outraged, or weighing in on these students would achieve nothing, so to my mind, there's little point winding myself up about it. These behaviours are the emergent properties of a society, not individual acts of evil, and, like so many less-desirable aspects of human behaviour, are somewhat baked in by the society they grew up in. Getting outraged about it is futile.


----------



## zahir (Sep 14, 2021)

Thread on classroom spread


----------



## Badgers (Sep 14, 2021)

Not surprising but unpleasant reading nonetheless.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 16, 2021)

First Covid case in my daughter's year, we haven't been told who it was and no-one has been contacted by test and trace, so I guess whoever it was didn't have any close contacts at all.


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## Badgers (Sep 18, 2021)

Not ideal news... 









						Covid: Rates 'soaring' where schools returned earlier
					

Virus has 'really accelerated' in pupils in Leicestershire, where autumn term started earlier than average, experts say




					www.tes.com


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 18, 2021)

The good news at my place is that we haven't had any more positives beyond the original infections I've mentioned.

The bad news is that one of those continues to suffer badly. She's 55 and asthmatic. Managed to avoid hospital so far and hopefully that continues. Word is she isn't improving much, if at all. I hope long Covid doesn't become a thing for her, fingers crossed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 20, 2021)

At my current school teachers are responsible for ensuring they cannot be considered 'close contacts' of any student who tests positive. So that's that sorted. As long as we don't need to use a corridor. Or a classroom. Or breathe air.

I'm also working on a day-to-day basis via an agency. So if (when) I do get sick, no paid sick leave


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2021)




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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 21, 2021)

Had 'the letter' yesterday, someone in BB2's class has Covid, BB2 is considered a close-contact. But we must do nothing unless she becomes ill. This time last year her whole year had to take 2 weeks off when the same happened...


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## Elpenor (Sep 21, 2021)

As a follow up, my mates daughter came home from hospital on Saturday.  Doubtless a few more follow up trips to hospital over the next few weeks.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 21, 2021)

My daughter (12) is booked in for her first jab next week - at her request. Proud of her tbh.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 21, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> As a follow up, my mates daughter came home from hospital on Saturday.  Doubtless a few more follow up trips to hospital over the next few weeks.




Hopefully no lasting effects for her.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 21, 2021)

Teachers/parents; are kids wearing masks at all where you are? Here they're expected to in communal areas but I think that might only be happening in Devon and Cornwall. 

It's fucking daft anyway. Clearly the classroom where kids are sat shoulder to shoulder for an hour at a time is when there's the greatest risk of transmission.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Sep 21, 2021)

Masks in classrooms as well as communal areas at my daughter's school in Lancashire, following positive cases in years 8, 10 and 11.


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## wayward bob (Sep 21, 2021)

school policy is masks no longer required. but vast majority are choosing to wear them in class. (wales)


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## Thora (Sep 21, 2021)

None among children, parents or staff at either of my children's primary or secondary schools now.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Teachers/parents; are kids wearing masks at all where you are?


No


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## elbows (Sep 23, 2021)

‘It’s scary’: record Covid absences cause concern in England’s schools
					

Parents and teachers share their views as confirmed or suspected pupil infections exceed 100,000




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## weepiper (Sep 23, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Teachers/parents; are kids wearing masks at all where you are? Here they're expected to in communal areas but I think that might only be happening in Devon and Cornwall.
> 
> It's fucking daft anyway. Clearly the classroom where kids are sat shoulder to shoulder for an hour at a time is when there's the greatest risk of transmission.


Still wearing masks in communal areas and in classes in Edinburgh. Still mandatory so only a few deniers saying it gives them panic attacks - my boys report most kids wear them.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 23, 2021)

When does the 12-15 vaccination program start? I

I've just had a text for a booster jab, 6 months from the last one for 50+ or 16 + and clinically vulnerable


----------



## weepiper (Sep 23, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> When does the 12-15 vaccination program start? I
> 
> I've just had a text for a booster jab, 6 months from the last one for 50+ or 16 + and clinically vulnerable


Starting from this week I believe. You can take them to specific walk-in centres here and they're sending out appointments from next week. Mine are going on Friday.


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## baldrick (Sep 23, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> When does the 12-15 vaccination program start? I
> 
> I've just had a text for a booster jab, 6 months from the last one for 50+ or 16 + and clinically vulnerable


Schools will be offering them from next week as well. The school vax team will be at ours on the 30th iirc.


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## PursuedByBears (Sep 23, 2021)

Daughter at home today awaiting the results of last night's PCR test.


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## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)




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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 23, 2021)

Have any of these wankers even tried to explain why it wouldn't transmit in schools? What's supposedly the magic factor that makes them the exception to everything we've been told for the last year and a half?


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## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)




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## elbows (Sep 24, 2021)

My local news has a useful guide to how many pupils in primary & secondary schools have been testing positive in various towns round here. Are other peoples local news doing the same?









						School Covid outbreaks lead to almost 700 new positive pupil cases
					

The number has rocketed since last week




					www.coventrytelegraph.net


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## Badgers (Sep 24, 2021)

Not in the news but... 

My testing team are going to a junior school which has had a major outbreak of Covid since opening. 

Kids, teachers (including head and deputy head) and parents all testing positive. So we are going there for two days with PCR testing for all contacts including siblings etc. 

The school may close as a 'circuit breaker' depending on the result.


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## nagapie (Sep 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The school may close as a 'circuit breaker' depending on the result.


Sounds a bit late for that.


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## Badgers (Sep 24, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Sounds a bit late for that.


Pretty much the story of the UK pandemic


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## elbows (Sep 24, 2021)

Its never too late to make a real difference in terms of specific people in specific places getting it or not. Even when its too late to have avoided a spike in numbers and specific outbreaks starting in the first place. Its a bit like when people were tempted to feel defeated when things go out of control nationally or when individual measures werent enough on their own to turn the tide.


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## chilango (Sep 24, 2021)

Went to a proper superspreader event the other day, a Secondary school Open Evening. Hundreds of parents and kids from Primary Schools across the area crammed into a (despite their best efforts tbf) poor ventilated auditorium with kids and teachers from the Sec. School. Less than 5% of adults in masks.


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## thismoment (Sep 24, 2021)

chilango said:


> Went to a proper superspreader event the other day, a Secondary school Open Evening. Hundreds of parents and kids from Primary Schools across the area crammed into a (despite their best efforts tbf) poor ventilated auditorium with kids and teachers from the Sec. School. Less than 5% of adults in masks.


Same where I work. Feeling awful today


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## nagapie (Sep 24, 2021)

chilango said:


> Went to a proper superspreader event the other day, a Secondary school Open Evening. Hundreds of parents and kids from Primary Schools across the area crammed into a (despite their best efforts tbf) poor ventilated auditorium with kids and teachers from the Sec. School. Less than 5% of adults in masks.


That's pretty much the day to day experience of us teachers. Just less adults and more children.


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## Badgers (Sep 24, 2021)

There is a lot of parents bringing kids in for LFTs at the moment. No bad thing if course but with this cold going around they are showing mild symptoms. So far this week all negative which is pleasing but disruptive at best.


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## chilango (Sep 24, 2021)

nagapie said:


> That's pretty much the day to day experience of us teachers. Just less adults and more children.


Oh I know. But add the influx of kids and parents from every primary school in the area just in case the virus hasn't made it in yet....


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## planetgeli (Sep 24, 2021)

We have an Estyn (Welsh equivalent of Ofsted) inspection next week as they've decided it's safe to go back into schools now. This week we've had 20% of staff and 20% of our attending kids off with positive PCR tests (we are a very small school).

Be interesting to see if they come in masks. Because only 20% of the staff do (and about the same number of pupils).


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## nagapie (Sep 24, 2021)

chilango said:


> Oh I know. But add the influx of knowledge and parents from every primary school in the area just in case the virus hasn't made it in yet....


I know but I don't believe there isn't a school that's riddled with it.


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## chilango (Sep 24, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I know but I don't believe there isn't a school that's riddled with it.



Yeah


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 25, 2021)

My college has- halfway through this (third) week - sent an email including a Covid reporting form and the info that there is an Outbreak Management Plan triggered if 5 staff or students OR 10% of staff/students who may have been in close contact test positive within a ten day period. 

We have three things going through college like wildfire right now: a very nasty cold including splitting headaches; sickness and diarrhoea; Covid. No mandatory masks/distancing/pretty much any mitigation is having a huge impact. But as the dozen or so learners off in my dept due to Covid or suspected Covid are spread across different groups we carry on without any mitigation.

Had two learners separately come onto site to say they think they have Covid and what should they do about it


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## Badgers (Sep 25, 2021)

FFS 

One teacher I spoke to earlier said every day parents call in saying their kids have potential Covid symptoms and 'what should they do?'  

Also that a lot of parents are just sending their symptomatic kids in without having tested them at home.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 25, 2021)

In an office of articulate, bright people with degrees and in some cases Masters, I'm seen as obsessive about Covid because I know stuff they don't, like being vaccinated doesn't mean you can't get Covid or pass it on


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## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)




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## Cloo (Sep 26, 2021)

3 cases in son's class last week, so everyone's been asked to take PCR - son was clear, which didn't surprise me, it was 3 girls who he doesnt' sit near or play with.  It doesn't sound as though the PCRs have revealed any more positives but I guess there still might be some to come back today. They have been asked to LFT for next week, I expect a few more to show up. Going to be fun getting son to test every day - may try him doing it himself today to see if that makes it less traumatic...


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 27, 2021)

Anecdotally , staffing levels are even more precarious than usual in schools atm. That seems to be part covid, part sheer burnout from the last two years.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2021)

Colleague sent home after developing a cough over the weekend. Really pissed off about it, too, complaining the rules aren't clear and they've had four LFTs return negative results.



Pretty clear to me. The Principal of the college is saying not to come in if you have any symptoms, but where there us confusion is if this applies to students. On the one hand we don't want them in if they're ill, on the other we'll get hammered for low English and Maths attendance if they're off.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2021)

Also a problem: ordinary coughs and colds are rife here and can be so bad they seem like Covid. And vice versa


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## Badgers (Sep 27, 2021)

Happy times Saturday at the PlagueShed 

Tested a woman in the morning. Result was positive. She came back in the afternoon steaming drunk, accused me of spiking her test and many other things. Told me 'she can't be positive because she is attending a charity event on Sunday (yesterday) and has to see her mum who has cancer'  tried to assault a member of staff. 

Long story short she left in a meat wagon after pissing herself on one of my chairs.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Sep 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Happy times Saturday at the PlagueShed
> 
> Tested a woman in the morning. Result was positive. She came back in the afternoon steaming drunk, accused me of spiking her test and many other things. Told me 'she can't be positive because she is attending a charity event on Sunday (yesterday) and has to see her mum who has cancer'  tried to assault a member of staff.
> 
> Long story short she left in a meat wagon after pissing herself on one of my chairs.


Track and Trace will be on to the attendees at the charity event, estimated time of call: November.

Any bright ideas which pub she was at, to be renamed "The Plague and Pit"?


----------



## Cloo (Sep 27, 2021)

Oy vey Badgers ! 

PCRs didn't show up any more cases in son's class. It's probably a good thing they have a day off for Jewish holiday tomorrow as that's another space to catch any following cases. Clear lft this morning and he seemed to feel fine.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 27, 2021)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Track and Trace will be on to the attendees at the charity event, estimated time of call: November.
> 
> Any bright ideas which pub she was at, to be renamed "The Plague and Pit"?


I posted this in the school thread by mistake. More as a reply to frustration of those working in education. 

Not to ruin the mood but what surprised me is what the police told me. 

Since Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson lifted restrictions the police have no power. If someone tests positive there is no legal way to make them isolate. So they can go to any event or premises they wish.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 27, 2021)

I’ve come down with it (positive lft, awaiting pcr result). Probable route is via the school business manager who I had a sit down meeting with on the Wednesday the week before last, she was off sick on the Friday and positive test on the Sunday. Both my kids (3 and 5, one at the school) are coughing too, although we’re all a bit asthmatic in this basement flat and the drop in temperature over the last 24 hours can be a trigger for that.  Whole house has done PCRs

Does a 12-day period between exposure and symptoms sound realistic? I’ve been careful all week mainly doing outside work at the school (treating fences, sweeping leaves etc.) and giving people a wide berth, wearing a mask in the building. Shopping at 9:30pm at Aldi when only paranoid mask wearers come out.  Can’t see where else it would have come from. If there is a long infection period at the moment could that explain the delay before national case figures shot up today?

I had three negative lfts up to and including Friday morning (done before going to a family funeral and wake). I also wrongly thought I was in the clear then and went to the pub in the evening for a meet-up with other year 1 parents (some of whom are teachers at other schools) and a fun run event for the whole school the next morning running about and panting.  None of those events would have caused an infection this quickly but quite likely I was infectious to others.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 30, 2021)

How are you doing Dogsauce ?


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## elbows (Sep 30, 2021)

They've fucked around with the timing of data being published!


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

elbows said:


> They've fucked around with the timing od data being published!



Presumably the "user" in need at this point being someone to do with the government. "We need you to delay the results..."


----------



## baldrick (Sep 30, 2021)

elbows said:


> They've fucked around with the timing od data being published!



From October we're supposed to go to weekly reporting of absence in schools but obviously the mechanics of this have not been explained or prepared for and no one is really sure of the date we switch over. Could be tomorrow, could be next week. We get more info from our MIS provider about what's happening than the DfE. I have to say that daily reporting is a massive admin burden along with everything else covid that schools have to do.


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## Dogsauce (Sep 30, 2021)

S☼I said:


> How are you doing Dogsauce ?


Thanks for asking. Think I’m a bit better today, out and about a bit more around the house. If I’m too active (e.g. clearing up all the Lego the kids have strewn over the living room floor) I get a bit tired and weary, feel quite feeble generally. Not really coughing and joints much less achey. 

Last night/this morning my coughing was productive, bringing up quite dark stuff so I’ve contacted GP who is calling me back tomorrow, a bit worried there could be a secondary chest infection, but by this evening chest feels a lot less tight and not coughing.  I did have a pneumonia vaccine last year but chest infections do linger - when I started working at a school two years ago I had one for five months that took four different rounds of antibiotics to shift, what comes of working in a plague pit!  

I did a home PCR at midday yesterday but it hasn’t come through yet. The mrs did a walk-in one which came back negative, but she’s still producing positive lateral flows. She’s also lost her taste and smell, something I haven’t had.


----------



## baldrick (Oct 1, 2021)

baldrick said:


> From October we're supposed to go to weekly reporting of absence in schools but obviously the mechanics of this have not been explained or prepared for and no one is really sure of the date we switch over. Could be tomorrow, could be next week. We get more info from our MIS provider about what's happening than the DfE. I have to say that daily reporting is a massive admin burden along with everything else covid that schools have to do.


We got notice this morning that the daily reporting will continue


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2021)

elbows said:


> They've fucked around with the timing of data being published!




Nothing to see here.  Covid doesn't apply to kids.  Its all the fault of people going to pubs, sorry _rammed_ pubs.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 1, 2021)

Class of 30; 8 kids positive currently; 4 more off waiting results. Leadership clearly just letting it run. TA in another class asked if she could wear a mask as her own child is very anxious. Told no by SLT; tested positive 2 days later. All the positives in my class sit at the same table but infection is due to their siblings - there is no in-school transmission; repeat: there is no in-school transmission.


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 1, 2021)

there's some interesting stuff on today's indie sage about making schools safer. little presentation from Trish Greenhaugh on co2 monitors & HEPA filters, and a q&a with Carl Kerisblick on how it's working out in schools in Belgium.


----------



## elbows (Oct 1, 2021)

One in 20 is really quite an eye watering rate.



> One in every 20 children of secondary school age in England is infected with coronavirus, according to the latest estimates from the Office for National Statistics.
> This is the highest reported rate for this age group - or any other - since the pandemic began.











						Covid: One in 20 secondary-age children infected in England
					

This is the highest reported rate for Covid for any age group since the pandemic began.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2021)

Four teachers down at our other site. They only have six.

One more down from our site, thinks they caught it off their daughter (from a school).


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

Cheers #ToryScum









						Siblings of pupils testing positive told to isolate amid rising cases
					

The move is a response to Trafford having the third highest Covid rates across Greater Manchester



					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk
				






> Siblings of pupils testing positive for Covid in Trafford are now being asked to isolate again amid rising cases.
> 
> Since schools reopened at the beginning of September, brothers and sisters of anyone testing positive have been allowed to attend school as usual, providing their own PCR is negative.
> 
> But now Trafford Council is asking families to keep kids off school for two or three days before taking the sibling for a PCR, in the hope it will curb transmission in the classroom.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Cheers #ToryScum
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They really are just making it up as they go along, aren't they?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> They really are just making it up as they go along, aren't they?


Have been from before the first positive case on these shores.


----------



## mr steev (Oct 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Cheers #ToryScum
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These are local decisions aren't they, rather than central government?

A similar thing is happening here with mask wearing in secondary schools

Masks to be re-introduced in Wolverhampton secondary schools as Covid cases surge


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 4, 2021)

The school I'm working at today has c. 50% of kids and 14 staff off with covid. Don't bet against more school closures after half term.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 4, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Class of 30; 8 kids positive currently; 4 more off waiting results. Leadership clearly just letting it run. TA in another class asked if she could wear a mask as her own child is very anxious. Told no by SLT; tested positive 2 days later. All the positives in my class sit at the same table but infection is due to their siblings - there is no in-school transmission; repeat: there is no in-school transmission.



Tell TA to contact their union.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 4, 2021)

One dept member off with Covid, another very likely as has symptoms and works closely with the other. Several students off with it or suspected in our department. Lord alone knows how many across college. I'm WFH having been pinged and had a PCR test this morning. Big trip taking 40 learners to London for a Eurogamer event this Friday in serious jeopardy.


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## _Russ_ (Oct 4, 2021)

That you are actually planning on doing that right now is part of the problem


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 4, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> That you are actually planning on doing that right now is part of the problem


Tend to agree up to a point, but learners missed out on everything like this the last couple of years so can see why it's going ahead.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Tend to agree up to a point, but learners missed out on everything like this the last couple of years so can see why it's going ahead.



And with most 'adults' acting like it's all over and done with already, I do feel that kids should be given some leeway to have some kind of normality. They've already had to carry so much throughout all this.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 5, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Tend to agree up to a point, but learners missed out on everything like this the last couple of years so can see why it's going ahead.


Understood, but the venue/occasion?, I feel there may be better choices than taking 40 excited kids to a packed indoor gaming event at this point in time


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 5, 2021)

We’ve been lucky in having friends willing to take kids to school for us while we’re both still suffering/isolating, today the first day they’ve both gone in and I’ve been able to genuinely rest. We did test them with lateral flows, eldest has had no sign of symptoms at all, youngest is still coughing and snotty but it’s probably something else (he’s been like this for a couple of weeks). One of the parents doing the run for us has just recovered from covid herself so not putting herself at risk.  

Feel a bit blessed for this, a whole week stuck in a basement flat with them has been hard even though they’ve been really good and played together with little input needed.

 I suspect there’s been a lot off at school given the number of parents I know infected, all being well I should be back in working there on Thursday to find out.


----------



## elbows (Oct 5, 2021)

Things arent going very well round here. A primary school in my town has been closed so far this week due to Covid-induced staff shortages, and a bit further away Rugby has such high rates that they've reintroduced mask advice for secondary schools.









						Nuneaton school remains closed over 'key staff shortages due to Covid 19'
					

St Paul's Primary School is closed for the second day running




					www.coventrytelegraph.net


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2021)

elbows said:


> Things arent going very well round here. A primary school in my town has been closed so far this week due to Covid-induced staff shortages, and a bit further away Rugby has such high rates that they've reintroduced mask advice for secondary schools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bearing in mind the current level of school staffing/attendance crisis is despite the DfE cooking the books over what constitutes a close contact. If actual close contacts of people with positive contacts were being sent home schools would already be closed en masse. Or maybe we'd have actually kept a lid on transmission with those controls still in place, and there'd actually be less disruption by now, not more. We'll never know I guess.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2021)

The wording is, 'staff are responsible for ensuring that they could not be considered a close contact of any staff member or student who tests positive'. Not, 'staff should actually avoid contact' because that would be impossible. What we're actually expected to do is maintain deniability.


----------



## elbows (Oct 5, 2021)

The schools data that switched from weekly to fortnightly publication is now available:









						School Covid absences rise two-thirds in fortnight
					

A snapshot survey shows 2.5% of pupils were out of school for Covid-related reasons on Thursday.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 5, 2021)

I'm getting a feeling that there is a few things coinciding at the moment and we may be looking at something interesting towards the end of October.  The option of extending half-term by a week as a mini-firebreak is still there but I just cannot see any signs the government will consider it.  Covid is over and no one should think about it anymore.


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 5, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I'm getting a feeling that there is a few things coinciding at the moment and we may be looking at something interesting towards the end of October.  The option of extending half-term by a week as a mini-firebreak is still there but I just cannot see any signs the government will consider it.  Covid is over and no one should think about it anymore.


And there's no transmission in schools.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2021)

"It feels like a normal school again," Deputy head teacher Liz Lord says. "But at the same time, we're dealing with, unfortunately, a rise in the number of Covid cases.

"It causes concern and it causes worry. The number of school Covid cases is higher than it was in the summer.

"But it hasn't got the same level of disruption, because we're not sending kids around the person who is ill home to self-isolate any more."

Real fucking bright spark this one


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 5, 2021)

Heard the Alenco on speaker phone today. Christ knows what she was doing even trying to speak to the school - she couldn't. Couldn't get her words out, fighting for breath, had to stop the call and give up. Wow. Asthmatic, 5 weeks into her Covid. So that's long covid then.


----------



## elbows (Oct 7, 2021)

Add Cambridgeshire to the school masks list.









						Cambridgeshire schools asked to bring back masks
					

Health officials say more than half of recent Covid-19 cases were in the 0 to 17-year-old age group.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## elbows (Oct 7, 2021)

Not for the first time the state broadcaster demonstrates its committment to generating hollow laughter via headlines like "Back to school: How are pupils being kept Covid-safe?"









						How are Covid rules changing across UK schools?
					

The government's "Living with Covid" plan for England contains no additional measures for schools.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 8, 2021)

Overheard some kid this week complaining that he'd been getting high marks pre-lockdown and was now failing just about everything. Impossible to pull apart the effects of lost teaching, lost socialisation and endless screen time during lockdown but the issues with kids clearly runs deeper than the amount of subject content transmitted. There are so many kids in schools with effectively zero ability to self-regulate or focus on anything at all, and many of them are at an age when they're soon to be turfed out into the adult world. Pretty scary stuff.

I think curriculum catch-up needs to be abandoned tbh, for most kids at least. It's a losing battle until enough of them are emotionally and socially functional again. That's if there any teachers left by Christmas of course.

Not very coherent thoughts today, sorry. Been a fucker of a day


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 8, 2021)

SpookyFrank that must be very disheartening for everyone, best of luck with it.  I resigned from my TA job in a junior school end summer term 2019, feel like I dodged a bullet


----------



## Badgers (Oct 8, 2021)

Health chiefs probe 'high number' of positive lateral flow tests followed by negative PCRs
					

A number of people in the south west of England have reported testing positive for Covid-19 in lateral flow tests and then negative in subsequent PCRs - sparking fears of faulty tests or a even a new variant of the killer disease




					inews.co.uk


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Health chiefs probe 'high number' of positive lateral flow tests followed by negative PCRs
> 
> 
> A number of people in the south west of England have reported testing positive for Covid-19 in lateral flow tests and then negative in subsequent PCRs - sparking fears of faulty tests or a even a new variant of the killer disease
> ...


Follow-up article:









						Mystery deepens as scores more report positive lateral flow test followed by negative PCRs
					

On Thursday dozens of people contacted i with stories of testing positive on lateral flows and then negative on PCRs, with scores more claiming the same on social media




					inews.co.uk
				




Government is saying it’s not a technical problem with the kit or a new variant, and suggest it’s down to people doing the test wrong, which is bollocks given that it’s the same method for lft and PCR.


----------



## thismoment (Oct 11, 2021)

Anyone else in schools had a big uptick in covid cases today?


----------



## baldrick (Oct 11, 2021)

thismoment said:


> Anyone else in schools had a big uptick in covid cases today?


Yeah. Lots of staff coming down with it very suddenly. Hardly any kids. But the teachers must be catching it from someone, right?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 11, 2021)

thismoment said:


> Anyone else in schools had a big uptick in covid cases today?



Most people do their LFTs on Wednesday and Sunday so I wouldn't be surprised if Monday was a big day for new cases.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 11, 2021)

Sunday night and Tuesday night at ours (or the next morning before going in). Mine got picked up by the routine Sunday night one. I’d done an extra one on the Friday before, ahead of going to a funeral, which was negative. Then went to the pub for the first time in about 2 years and infected a load of people


----------



## thismoment (Oct 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Most people do their LFTs on Wednesday and Sunday so I wouldn't be surprised if Monday was a big day for new cases.


Ours was still a surprise for a Monday. Staff and students.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 12, 2021)

Education Secretary’s new guidance means schools must support clinically vulnerable families


> from the good law project:
> 
> We know many schools have, until now, understood that the Education Secretary’s guidance meant they could only authorise Covid-related absences if a child tests positive for Covid-19.
> 
> They should now be in no doubt that such a narrow interpretation is unlawful.


----------



## elbows (Oct 12, 2021)

The pace of vaccination of the school aged teenager group has not been impressing people and here is one look into it.


----------



## May Kasahara (Oct 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Health chiefs probe 'high number' of positive lateral flow tests followed by negative PCRs
> 
> 
> A number of people in the south west of England have reported testing positive for Covid-19 in lateral flow tests and then negative in subsequent PCRs - sparking fears of faulty tests or a even a new variant of the killer disease
> ...


This happened to my mate in Glos at the weekend. Ex and younger child got positive LFTs followed by neg PCRs. Friend and older child's LFTs both negative.


----------



## Thora (Oct 13, 2021)

The receptionist at my youngest's school was telling me this happened to her secondary age kids recently - very strong positive lfts and then a negative pcr so they both had to go back to school with their "colds".


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 14, 2021)

I know I keep saying this but staff absences are once again at an unsustainable level. At least one school in my area will be forced to close before half term I reckon.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know I keep saying this but staff absences are once again at an unsustainable level. At least one school in my area will be forced to close before half term I reckon.


Yes at least one school in my town (very high rates currently here, in the top 10 nationally last time I checked) had to close for several days recently due to staff shortages.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know I keep saying this but staff absences are once again at an unsustainable level. At least one school in my area will be forced to close before half term I reckon.



And on cue, the school I was working at when I wrote this post is now closed due to lack of staff. They've got over 1,000 kids on the books.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)

Today I am at a secondary school all day offering 'Vaccine Reassurance' to the yoot


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)

Another shitty situation fell in my lap this morning. There are 400 Afghan refugees in a hotel here which we are testing and vaccinating as best we can. 

130 of them are school age kids and are spread out across 6 schools. There are over 20 kids with fairly clear Covid-19 symptoms and the adults are starting to get symptoms now


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 18, 2021)

Welcome to Plague Island


----------



## Thora (Oct 18, 2021)

Total mess at my child's school - many staff, parents & kids have had positive lft followed by negative pcrs in the last month, and have received notifications that the pcrs were dodgy.  School now asking anyone who's had a notification to stay home and retest - but many people got their original lft result more than 10 days ago.  No one seems sure now who should be in school, who shouldn't.
Meanwhile I'd estimate about 75% of the kids have a cold and/or cough at the moment...


----------



## elbows (Oct 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 293225


I heard something along the lines of how the authorities in England have decided that maybe they better let kids use vaccination centres soon rather than continue to rely on the painfully slow school-based vaccination programme.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)

Vaccinated 150 kids this morning (not just me) which was good, if a little stressful at times.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Another shitty situation fell in my lap this morning. There are 400 Afghan refugees in a hotel here which we are testing and vaccinating as best we can.
> 
> 130 of them are school age kids and are spread out across 6 schools. There are over 20 kids with fairly clear Covid-19 symptoms and the adults are starting to get symptoms now


Just been for a site visit and it is a mess. The hotel is really nice tbf but most families are in one room. Plus the dining area is not adequately socially distanced and not ventilated. 

Almost nobody wearing masks, including the staff who are aware of the situation. 

I contacted the big boss and suggested we go straight to PCR testing tomorrow and do it outside the building. Told the PCR tests will take a week


----------



## blameless77 (Oct 19, 2021)

Interesting that schools are being told by PHE to institute 'Amber measures' - seems like government is starting to use the brakes slightly in the face of frankly concerning case numbers...


----------



## weepiper (Oct 19, 2021)

I find it wild that English schools are apparently not taking any measures  we've still got mandatory face masks for pupils and staff everywhere in high schools in Scotland and probably will do until Christmas at least. My kids' school does split/staggered break times as standard and all the windows and class doors are kept open, no assemblies, no parents on site etc etc. It seems insane not to do this stuff


----------



## elbows (Oct 19, 2021)

Its not quite 'not taking any measures', but that was the initial starting point and the government tacked on their usual preference for having a far too slow reactive element rather than a proactive one. Similar to the failed local lockdowns of the past - wait till things have already gone to shit in a particular location before imposing measures that still dont go far enough. So as things escalated in various different local authority areas in England, schools in those areas were advised to do a bit more.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 19, 2021)

weepiper said:


> I find it wild that English schools are apparently not taking any measures



You're not alone in that view.

This being said there are measures being taken but they are seemingly ad-hoc and vary from school to school.  For example where my sister teaches they are still teaching with all the windows and doors open which is still possible to do in SE England, for the time being anyway.


----------



## Thora (Oct 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Vaccinated 150 kids this morning (not just me) which was good, if a little stressful at times.


They attempted to do covid vaccinations at my eldest's school today, but ran out of time (or vaccinations, kid isn't sure) so only did half the kids   apparently not planning to come back so parents have been told if their child didn't get a vaccine but still wants one they can call Virgin (who do school nursing here) about it.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 19, 2021)

My manager at school (who probably infected me) reported that her son now has it, picked up from his secondary school, near enough to the whole class has it. Bizarrely she thinks this is a good thing and thinks they should ‘let it run through the schools’ to get it out of the way. No consideration that natural immunity doesn’t last, or that this also means death, disruption and a long recovery for many.


----------



## Thora (Oct 19, 2021)

blameless77 said:


> Interesting that schools are being told by PHE to institute 'Amber measures' - seems like government is starting to use the brakes slightly in the face of frankly concerning case numbers...
> 
> View attachment 293356


This is what my eldest's school have reintroduced too.


----------



## oryx (Oct 19, 2021)

weepiper said:


> I find it wild that English schools are apparently not taking any measures  we've still got mandatory face masks for pupils and staff everywhere in high schools in Scotland and probably will do until Christmas at least. My kids' school does split/staggered break times as standard and all the windows and class doors are kept open, no assemblies, no parents on site etc etc. It seems insane not to do this stuff


It does seem insane, also what elbows and Teaboy said.

Most significantly, your government aren't a load of libertarian headbangers!


----------



## thismoment (Oct 19, 2021)

Thora said:


> They attempted to do covid vaccinations at my eldest's school today, but ran out of time (or vaccinations, kid isn't sure) so only did half the kids   apparently not planning to come back so parents have been told if their child didn't get a vaccine but still wants one they can call Virgin (who do school nursing here) about it.


Likely that the same thing will happen at my school unfortunately because they are sending fewer staff than they had previously said and also starting later than they said


----------



## mr steev (Oct 19, 2021)

It feels like it varies a lot from school to school. My daughter who is in year 8, says everyone wears masks in corridors, windows are all open and each year group stays in their designated part of the school. She doesn't know of anyone who has it at the moment, but only knows of 3 in her class who are getting vaccinated


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 19, 2021)

It feels like I'm dodging bullets every day. It's rife where I am, everybody knows somebody (or more) who has it. 25% of the staff and the pupils have it or have had it in the last few weeks. We have a staff member with bad long Covid (asthmatic, never wore a mask) who people have seen gasping for breath and unable to speak.

And there's only two mask wearers left in the whole school. I'm one of them.

Actually, there's one more. The asthmatic long Covid sufferer, who never wore one before. Ironic of course, because bolting horses and stable doors. So not entirely sure why she's doing it. But I see how much her life is currently wrecked and think maybe there's something deeply psychological going on there.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Another shitty situation fell in my lap this morning. There are 400 Afghan refugees in a hotel here which we are testing and vaccinating as best we can.
> 
> 130 of them are school age kids and are spread out across 6 schools. There are over 20 kids with fairly clear Covid-19 symptoms and the adults are starting to get symptoms now


Two of the staff who worked there yesterday have tested positive this morning and are really sick with it 

Both double jabbed 
One had the virus two months ago 

Full PPE 
Mask, face visor, plastic aprons, surgical gloves and sanitiser + sprays to hand. 

FFS


----------



## elbows (Oct 22, 2021)

One extra day added to the half term break for a few schools and it gets called a fire-breaker!









						Covid: Herefordshire schools' half-term 'fire break'
					

Two sites in Herefordshire have already begun the holiday to beat Covid transmissions.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## miktheword (Oct 23, 2021)

Having been contract in UK for most of the time, then supply for 'reasons', moved to Occupied 6 counties and found employment situation much better; paid at scale daily rate with pension entitlement compared to GB's overwhelming use of agencies taking 1/3 of daily rate.  double the pay .
A year ago, there was a big long debate about would supply here get furlough. We had no employer the argument ran, except for those who employed us on the day. Schools refused, the executive refused. 
They asked GB govt for funds, got told to f off, eventually found dosh from other budgets  to fund us for 80% of work from March 2020 to July 2020. (Got extended after that I think, but I had exempted anyway by then)

Now, there's a crisis. I have exempted myself from work for 2 years, even from sub register but still getting emergency calls at stupid O clock last week, (I'm now CEV , one of the 'need 4 jabs' cohort, not worth your life)

was 3rd item on radio ulster news this morning about anyone who can help in special schools (where I have done a few years, behavioural and SEND). No experience needed, short term etc. 
Head Teachers'  rep this morning gave reasons as many subs have left for better conditions elsewhere, many in Engage catch up programme, many isolating. 

Despite being better remunerated over here, relying on a  skeleton temp workforce, who were seen as a disposable reserve army last year, hasn't boded well. 

Now announced that many special schools have asked parents of whole year groups to keep pupils at home and some have closed early for half term.


----------



## zahir (Oct 23, 2021)




----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 26, 2021)

I reckon anyone responding to schools desperately asking for supply staff at the moment must be like answering an ad for drummer with Spinal Tap.


----------



## Aladdin (Oct 29, 2021)

My friend's 5 yr old daughter has been diagnosed with covid. The entire family are being tested now.  She picked it up in school. Friend worried sick that the grandparents may have picked it up. Littlun only has one symptom...hoarseness.


----------



## thismoment (Oct 31, 2021)

Note sure if I am misreading this article.
My school has already had the health team visit to offer the jabs.

I am wondering if they’ll visit again to give families another chance to get their child vaccinated in school if they had previously refused because take up was very low. 

Covid-19 vaccine: Jabs offered to 12-15-year-olds at 800 schools Covid-19 vaccine: Jabs offered to 12-15-year-olds at 800 schools


----------



## Cloo (Oct 31, 2021)

Son's school is asking for LFTs twice a week for this half term even though it's a primary, which I think is sensible. They told parents they had 15 cases last half term (4 in son's class!) and are expecting this one to be worse, hence asking for LFTs. Son took it well when I told him, he really hates having them done, even just nose ones.

Oldest (13) had their jab, it'll be three weeks tomorrow.


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 4, 2021)

New teacher in our school.  Young..maybe 23? 
Going into other teachers' classrooms without a mask. Talking about a certain Irish Doctor who is anti vax...and giving out that the staffroom is closed for a few weeks until covid numbers decrease. 
She has been quoting Dolores Cahill...who is an covid denying fruitloop. 

Staff uncomfortable with her just walking into their class sans mask and spouting shoite about anti vaccine stuff.

Glad I don't have to deal with her cos I dont suffer fools...and would probably rip her a new one.


----------



## elbows (Nov 5, 2021)

> Parents of pupils at a school in Nuneaton have received a text message advising them that, if their child is a close contact of a positive case, to keep them away from the classroom before they receive the results of a PCR test.





> In a statement, the county council explained that it cannot tell schools what to do - but it can make suggestions, and the recent advice issued to parents in Nuneaton is one of them.
> 
> 
> "Warwickshire County Council Public Health Team leaves many decisions around COVID-19 secure measures up to each school's discretion," a Shire Hall spokesperson said.
> ...











						New county school advice about pupil isolation after positive cases
					

It comes from Warwickshire Public Health




					www.coventrytelegraph.net


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 6, 2021)

elbows said:


> New county school advice about pupil isolation after positive cases
> 
> 
> It comes from Warwickshire Public Health
> ...



Basic sense. No doubt the government will come down on it like a ton of bricks


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 9, 2021)

Quick update on the Alnco  at my work who is late fifties, asthmatic and suffering long covid she caught in the first few days back in September. She's really fucked. Gone long term sick and may not ever come back. I've never seen such a dreadful change in a person. It's aged her 20 years, at least, when she's looking bad. She was fit, she now walks like a slow 80 year old. Her face is grey.

I would never wish that on anyone. Yet at school a common theme is "look, we've just all got to catch it and get it over with". This is from people who have seen the Alnco, some of them are her friends.

I don't get it. I don't post much Covid stuff now because I think we are in a bizarre place, far more bizarre than lockdown. And yet I feel I'm the wrong way around in that argument compared to the majority. It's suddenly become ok to kill 50,000+ people a year. Just get on with it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2021)

On monday morning I had to explain to a class full of kids that if they were close contacts of an infected person they still needed to come to school. Many of them were outraged at the stupidity of this. I told them that whatever the school policy says, a sensible person would avoid contact with others if they knew they had been exposed to and were likely to be a transmission vector for a dangerous pathogen. I told them they would have to use their own judgement. I would probably get in trouble for saying that if management found out but I have a duty of safeguarding that comes before anything else and I'm not willing to be complicit in this gaslighting shit any more.


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 9, 2021)

From what I hear, working on the front line of public services feels rather like the poor sods sent in to Chernobyl to seal it in a sarcophagus. Viewed as expendable.


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 9, 2021)

Antigen testing is to be introduced in Irish schools soon

About bloody time!


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 10, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> On monday morning I had to explain to a class full of kids that if they were close contacts of an infected person they still needed to come to school. Many of them were outraged at the stupidity of this. I told them that whatever the school policy says, a sensible person would avoid contact with others if they knew they had been exposed to and were likely to be a transmission vector for a dangerous pathogen. I told them they would have to use their own judgement. I would probably get in trouble for saying that if management found out but I have a duty of safeguarding that comes before anything else and I'm not willing to be complicit in this gaslighting shit any more.


I think you should document this with a letter to your union or some other official body. Not to raise a complaint, just to make it clear that safeguarding is being interpreted in an unsafe way that is beyond your control.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I think you should document this with a letter to your union or some other official body. Not to raise a complaint, just to make it clear that safeguarding is being interpreted in an unsafe way that is beyond your control.



I might well do that. From the evidence on this thread there are at least some schools and local authorities who are not happy with the official line on students self-isolating. 

The rule for teachers is even more absurd than the one for students. Hasn't prevented an assortment of school closures due to loss of staff to covid though.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 10, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I don't get it. I don't post much Covid stuff now because I think we are in a bizarre place, far more bizarre than lockdown. And yet I feel I'm the wrong way around in that argument compared to the majority. It's suddenly become ok to kill 50,000+ people a year. Just get on with it.


I feel the same.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Nov 10, 2021)

Masks will be compulsory in all French schools again from this coming Monday. Not much help for those here though.


----------



## zahir (Nov 15, 2021)

Thread


----------



## elbows (Nov 16, 2021)

Another example of local measures round these parts.









						Whole year groups closed after more than 30 Covid cases at school
					

The rest of the school remains open




					www.coventrytelegraph.net


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 20, 2021)

Daughter's class has AT LEAST eight cases, possibly ten - including her. There is precisely zero mitigation, which has been like this since they went back in September.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 20, 2021)

Around a third of people being tested in my manor are children (of all ages) after being sent home from school.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 20, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Daughter's class has AT LEAST eight cases, possibly ten - including her. There is precisely zero mitigation, which has been like this since they went back in September.



I've taught classes that were half empty. And this is how we get kids to 'catch up' apparently. There's usually nothing provided for the kids stuck at home because the official line is still school are open, everything is fine.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Around a third of people being tested in my manor are children (of all ages) after being sent home from school.



And that's with the close contact rules massively watered down. I don't think kids are currently told if someone that they sat next to all day yesterday has caught covid. They're not required to self isolate in that situation, so what would be the point?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 26, 2021)

Email today from daughter's school saying Monday and Tuesday they haven't enough staff to have Years 8 & 9 in, including children of key workers, but also "the site is Covid-19 secure".

Bitter lol

(Ten year 8 kids including daughter in her class alone currently have Covid)


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 26, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Email today from daughter's school saying Monday and Tuesday they haven't enough staff to have Years 8 & 9 in, including children of key workers, but also "the site is Covid-19 secure".
> 
> Bitter lol
> 
> (Ten year 8 kids including daughter in her class alone currently have Covid)



Many things wrong with my place and Covid but at least one of the pieces of bullshit I don't have to endure is "Covid secure", wtf is wrong with these people?

So much denial of reality.


----------



## elbows (Nov 26, 2021)

Even the government stopped using Covid secure in their most prominent rhetoric to the public. Its probably still in the more detailed and tedious documents though.


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 26, 2021)

Kids over 9 to wear masks here in Primary schools from next week. 
About time. And it should be for all ages.


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 26, 2021)

elbows said:


> Even the government stopped using Covid secure in their most prominent rhetoric to the public. Its probably still in the more detailed and tedious documents though.



Over here the govermment kept quoting NPHET National Piblic Health...and saying schools were safe...this has been their line for the past year. 

Now the deputy chief medical officer has come straight out and said they never said schools were safe. 🙄🙄🙄


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 26, 2021)

Our school got sent a load of CO2 monitors from the gubbermint. Only we have no need for them since we’ve had them in every classroom since a rebuild in 2015.  Apparently they’ve sent the same amount to every school, so we can probably palm them off on another school that hasn’t been sent enough.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 26, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Our school got sent a load of CO2 monitors from the gubbermint. Only we have no need for them since we’ve had them in every classroom since a rebuild in 2015.  Apparently they’ve sent the same amount to every school, so we can probably palm them off on another school that hasn’t been sent enough.



We've just got a pile of them sat unopened in every department office. Unless someone figures out a way to have all the windows open in January without everyone freezing to death, I can't see what possible use they could be.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> We've just got a pile of them sat unopened in every department office. Unless someone figures out a way to have all the windows open in January without everyone freezing to death, I can't see what possible use they could be.


theyre meant to filter the air in an enclosed room and trap germs and other particles, no?


----------



## alex_ (Nov 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> theyre meant to filter the air in an enclosed room and trap germs and other particles, no?



No. They tell you you need to open the window


----------



## Saffy (Nov 27, 2021)

My daughter had a class of 10 yesterday, out of 32.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> theyre meant to filter the air in an enclosed room and trap germs and other particles, no?



No that'd be an air filter. We don't get those because they're too expensive.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2021)

alex_ said:


> No. They tell you you need to open the window


----------



## alex_ (Nov 27, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> No that'd be an air filter. We don't get those because they're too expensive.



Quite a posh air filter if it can filter out Covid, and I suspect you need to change the filters reasonably frequently too.

The “opening the windows” thing is a bit more U.K. government budget levels, but actually reasonably effective.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 28, 2021)

So masks back in all educational settings in communal areas for Yr 7 and above, colleges and unis included. From tomorrow.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 28, 2021)

I can almost guarantee there will be staff members without masks let alone students. Will be interesting to see in my college how much thus is adhered to/enforced


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 29, 2021)

S☼I said:


> So masks back in all educational settings in communal areas for Yr 7 and above, colleges and unis included. From tomorrow.



Do 'communal areas' include classrooms, because they haven't up to now.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Do 'communal areas' include classrooms, because they haven't up to now.


No, classrooms not included


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 29, 2021)

Signs are up at my place.

Not so good on the actual mask wearing.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 29, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Signs are up at my place.
> 
> Not so good on the actual mask wearing.


Same at the college I (occasionally) work in - the "Estates" gestapo, usually oh-so-keen to police the slightest infraction, seem happy to wander past students with very effectively-masked chins with nary a word.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 29, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Signs are up at my place.
> 
> Not so good on the actual mask wearing.


Oh, signs have been up here throughout, so now are things that nobody pays attention to.


----------



## AverageJoe (Nov 29, 2021)

Junior Joe (11 tomorrow) had a positive LTF yesterday so we've all now had PCR tests. We are all negative except him.

He now has 10 days in his bedroom. We've moved his Xbox and a TV into his room, he has a phone with Sky Sports, BT sports and Netflix and 7 days off school.

He's got no symptons and hes _*bloody loving it*_


----------



## Sweet FA (Nov 29, 2021)

Give him some work then ffs.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 29, 2021)

S☼I said:


> No, classrooms not included



Well why would they be


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 29, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Give him some work then ffs.



Init. Plenty of teachers here we can cobble some together for him


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 30, 2021)

So is the outdoor classroom a thing in any of your schools? 
It was big last year but what about now? 
Schools here have all windows and doors open. Kids are frozen sitting in class and they are confined to pods or bubbles so they cant nove around the room anymore. They are supposed to sit in one place til breaktime. 

Is there anyone taking kids out of the room to learn?  Anyone going outside for classes? Just to get them moving and warmed up?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 30, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> So is the outdoor classroom a thing in any of your schools?
> It was big last year but what about now?
> Schools here have all windows and doors open. Kids are frozen sitting in class and they are confined to pods or bubbles so they cant nove around the room anymore. They are supposed to sit in one place til breaktime.
> 
> Is there anyone taking kids out of the room to learn?  Anyone going outside for classes? Just to get them moving and warmed up?



When schools were closed in January and we had the keyworker kids in stuck in one classroom all day staring at their chromebooks we made them do a lap of the school site at least once an hour. Walk, run, whatever just move your bones and focus your eyes on something far away. After a while the kids got quite good at self-regulating this and realising for themselves when they needed a breather.

In normal times we're not allowed to let the kids roam the halls for a few minutes in he middle of a lesson to help them settle down, even though that is exactly what many of them need. Just now I had a kid sent back into my classroom by some behaviour drone with a walkie talkie; even though he'd recognised that he needed a quick reset, asked me if he could go outside, basically done everything right. And of course he came back and immediately started pissing everyone off because he couldn't sit still or be quiet.


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 30, 2021)

Spot on SpookyFrank 
Kids are very stressed and sitting in rooms unable to move about because "pods" and no mixing is really causing issues. 

I think health breaks are necessary. Above and beyond the usual yard breaks. 

Interesting that there was someone on that kids case in your example.  
How does management view the kids getting a few minutes of time to decompress and get some air outdoors? Outside of scheduled yard breaks?


----------



## elbows (Nov 30, 2021)




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## SpookyFrank (Nov 30, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Interesting that there was someone on that kids case in your example.
> How does management view the kids getting a few minutes of time to decompress and get some air outdoors? Outside of scheduled yard breaks?



Management doesn't even think they should be allowed to go for a piss. All lesson time is sacred, even if the kid is getting nothing out of it and spoiling the environment for everyone else.

Mostly the only place you can send them is whatever the school calls the naughty room. Some schools have a 'sensory space' where kids, particularly ASD kids, can go to get some peace or do something they find calming but this is not nearly common enough. 

You can also have a school dog, which is a great way to trick troubled kids into going for a walk outside and opening up to a sympathetic adult.


----------



## Aladdin (Nov 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Management doesn't even think they should be allowed to go for a piss. All lesson time is sacred, even if the kid is getting nothing out of it and spoiling the environment for everyone else.
> 
> Mostly the only place you can send them is whatever the school calls the naughty room. Some schools have a 'sensory space' where kids, particularly ASD kids, can go to get some peace or do something they find calming but this is not nearly common enough.
> 
> You can also have a school dog, which is a great way to trick troubled kids into going for a walk outside and opening up to a sympathetic adult.




You're lucky you've a school therapy dog..

I really think that outdoor learning and teaching should be an option even just to get kids out in fresh air more often


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 30, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> So is the outdoor classroom a thing in any of your schools?



Hahahahaha. Alfresco school is what we call ours. (I know we're not typical). But kids not going to classes is an every day thing, nearly an every class thing. Half my day is spent outside chatting shit to kids. I mean educating kids. With that and the steroids I have a hell of a suntan for the end of November.

But we do run Forest schools as well. It's a brilliant thing. My understanding was that it's becoming quite widespread, even in mainstream? It should be. Do none of you mainstreamers have Forest schools?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 30, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Hahahahaha. Alfresco school is what we call ours. (I know we're not typical). But kids not going to classes is an every day thing, nearly an every class thing. Half my day is spent outside chatting shit to kids. I mean educating kids. With that and the steroids I have a hell of a suntan for the end of November.
> 
> But we do run Forest schools as well. It's a brilliant thing. My understanding was that it's becoming quite widespread, even in mainstream? It should be. Do none of you mainstreamers have Forest schools?



There's this weird thing where nice, sensible ideas are spreading gradually but in parallel with a bunch of stuff that runs directly contrary to it, like all that moronic 'ready to learn' filth.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 3, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Hahahahaha. Alfresco school is what we call ours. (I know we're not typical). But kids not going to classes is an every day thing, nearly an every class thing. Half my day is spent outside chatting shit to kids. I mean educating kids. With that and the steroids I have a hell of a suntan for the end of November.
> 
> But we do run Forest schools as well. It's a brilliant thing. My understanding was that it's becoming quite widespread, even in mainstream? It should be. Do none of you mainstreamers have Forest schools?




BB2 has forest schools, run by the National Trust at Witley Common, we have so much open land around here, much more so than in many more rural areas, yet so many kids here have never been taken in to it, so definitely a good thing.

And on Covid, BB2’s 2 form junior school, the other year 4 group has 8 out of 29 off with plague. There is a school Xmas fare in the playground tonight, should help the spread…


----------



## zahir (Dec 3, 2021)

Pupils given detention for wearing face masks in class
					

Parents have hit-out at a school for punishing pupils who wear face masks in classrooms.




					www.kentonline.co.uk
				





> Pupils at a Kent secondary school have been removed from lessons and given detentions for wearing face masks in class.
> 
> Youngsters at the Abbey School in Faversham say they have been covering up to protect vulnerable relatives as Covid cases soar across the town.
> 
> But teachers say the masks are a "barrier to learning", and have been punishing pupils who refuse to remove them during lessons.





> The Abbey School is located in a small area referred to by public health chiefs as Faversham West.
> 
> In the most recent week 86 new Covid cases were recorded, giving it an infection rate of 994 cases per 100,000 - more than double the national average.
> 
> At the same time, a case of the new Omicron variant has been discovered at a school in Northfleet.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 3, 2021)

zahir said:


> Pupils given detention for wearing face masks in class
> 
> 
> Parents have hit-out at a school for punishing pupils who wear face masks in classrooms.
> ...



Fucking morons.


----------



## oryx (Dec 3, 2021)

zahir said:


> Pupils given detention for wearing face masks in class
> 
> 
> Parents have hit-out at a school for punishing pupils who wear face masks in classrooms.
> ...


That's outrageous. Kids wanting to do the right thing and being punished for it.


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## spanglechick (Dec 3, 2021)

I just can’t imagine why you’d bother.  (Quite apart from the whole “punishing kids who voluntarily show public-spirited behaviour” thing). 

Do these teachers not have enough to do?


----------



## N_igma (Dec 4, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I just can’t imagine why you’d bother.  (Quite apart from the whole “punishing kids who voluntarily show public-spirited behaviour” thing).
> 
> Do these teachers not have enough to do?


I suspect this is something passed down to teachers from SLT and they have to enforce it. Can’t imagine an average teacher objecting to this as a matter of principle. 

Either way sounds like a toxic as fuck school and one to avoid.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 4, 2021)

We've had masks for all staff since Monday and for students since Tuesday. And yesterday I spent time in reception waiting for a student to come in for a meeting and easily more than half the students were maskless and no staff member challenged any student. There were groups sat maskless in reception. 

By the end of Tuesday the staff in the college shop had had so much grief off students after being instructed not to serve anyone maskless that they complained...and were told not to bother challenging them. 

I was on door duty yesterday morning giving out masks and tbf almost all students were happy to take one ("go on, it's free, second one's twice as much but this one's free" etc) but I then visited the other five entrances to the main building and nobody was doing the same as me. 

What we needed was SMT on doors for a couple of days at the start. But I guess that's a bit tricky when they're all WFH.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 8, 2021)

Multiple schools round here are sending entire year groups home. Another week and it'll be whole schools closing early for Christmas.

Another January school shutdown would be a catastrophe. Everything else should be shut down immediately to prevent that IMO.


----------



## Aladdin (Dec 8, 2021)

zahir said:


> Pupils given detention for wearing face masks in class
> 
> 
> Parents have hit-out at a school for punishing pupils who wear face masks in classrooms.
> ...


Nuts 

All kids over the age of 9 are wearing masks here now.
(Ireland) 
Governement wimped out on telling schools to send kids home if they were not masked. 
So now the schools have to engage with parents if their child is unmasked and attempt to reason with them.  If they cant see reason the  the school is to bring in the inspector...like anyone wants to draw one of them on you. 

On another tack.
Santa is arriving to our school. 
To a beautifully made indoor grotto which will have two doors open either end. 
Madness. But my voice is meaningless. So I have given up warning.  
There was 1/5 of staff out with covid over the past 2 weeks. 3 staff are pretty unwell since Halloween and wont be back this side of the holidays. 
I think its absolute madness to parade kids class by class into a room to see Santa. They will be masked and will have to stay 6 feet away from Santa but it's asking for trouble imo.


----------



## Aladdin (Dec 8, 2021)

N_igma said:


> I suspect this is something passed down to teachers from SLT and they have to enforce it. Can’t imagine an average teacher objecting to this as a matter of principle.
> 
> Either way sounds like a toxic as fuck school and one to avoid.



Yep. 
The parents should be fighting this nonsense


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 8, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> I think its absolute madness to parade kids class by class into a room to see Santa.


Poor Santa. Is the head doing this? Santa should traditionally be SLT


----------



## Aladdin (Dec 8, 2021)

<removed by requested>


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## Steel Icarus (Dec 8, 2021)

Mock exams this week. How _sensible_ to put hundreds of kids who don't usually mix in halls and much smaller rooms with each other. How _sensible_.


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## Steel Icarus (Dec 8, 2021)

I estimate mask wearing is around a third in communal areas of the college. Staff aren't challenging or requesting, the students know nobody will do a thing. It's so frustrating.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Mock exams this week. How _sensible_ to put hundreds of kids who don't usually mix in halls and much smaller rooms with each other. How _sensible_.


B-B-BUT THE EXAMS MUST GO ON!!1!


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## existentialist (Dec 8, 2021)

My co-tutor and I have unilaterally taken the decision to keep the final class of term online. We'll pick the bones out of the online/offline ratio later.


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## spanglechick (Dec 8, 2021)

I’ve not really posted because it feels like our luck can’t hold, but for balance, we’ve had next to no covid this school year.  No staff Covid at all.  Currently about 6-7 kids in a school of just over 1000. It’s been like this since we came back in September.  No omicron cases as yet in Lambeth. 

I mean we really aren’t a paragon of damage limitation: our kids simply are not getting interested in masks this time round, and their vaccination rates are terrifyingly low - but so far we’re having a very normal year.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 9, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I’ve not really posted because it feels like our luck can’t hold, but for balance, we’ve had next to no covid this school year.  No staff Covid at all.  Currently about 6-7 kids in a school of just over 1000. It’s been like this since we came back in September.  No omicron cases as yet in Lambeth.
> 
> I mean we really aren’t a paragon of damage limitation: our kids simply are not getting interested in masks this time round, and their vaccination rates are terrifyingly low - but so far we’re having a very normal year.


I feel like it's coming though as lots of kids I know seem to have it at the secondary up the road, D.
I think people just aren't testing.


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I feel like it's coming though as lots of kids I know seem to have it at the secondary up the road, D.
> I think people just aren't testing.


Oh I’m sure.  But we’ll get through next week to the holidays at least.  We’re off tomorrow for the queen day, which can’t hurt.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 9, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Oh I’m sure.  But we’ll get through next week to the holidays at least.  We’re off tomorrow for the queen day, which can’t hurt.


Queen day tomorrow? Why don't we have that?


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Queen day tomorrow? Why don't we have that?


You’ll be having it at some point this year.  It’s cos the extra bank holiday falls in the existing school holidays.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 9, 2021)

Had this letter regarding my middle son today



> In recent days we have been made aware of members of the school community in S5 & S6 who have tested positive for COVID-19. This letter is to inform you that your child has been identified as having been in ‘low risk’ contact with this person. This means they may have shared a classroom or had some other low risk contact in school.  There is no need for your child to isolate unless contacted separately by Test and Protect and asked to do so. School remains open and your child should continue to attend if they are well.



...which is clearly meant to be reassuring but I find anything but


----------



## zahir (Dec 9, 2021)




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## Aladdin (Dec 9, 2021)

Talk here tonight of schools closing early for Christmas holidays on the 17th.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2021)

zahir said:


>




There's already mass disruption. They don't give a shit. More important to keep letting people go to rugby matches and things.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2021)

I think keeping schools open is really about keeping people at work. If they are WFH anyway, there will be less incentive to keep the schools open, but OTOH they still want to keep productivity up


----------



## nagapie (Dec 10, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I think keeping schools open is really about keeping people at work. If they are WFH anyway, there will be less incentive to keep the schools open, but OTOH they still want to keep productivity up


There are a lot of other reasons to keep schools open, although not sure if the government cares about them. I am very against schools closing but would have been happy to see other much stricter measures in place some time ago to protect school. This is sounding very familiar...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2021)

It does seem to me that the parents on here have been a lot less in favour of closing schools throughout all this than a lot of others tbh. Whatever the government's motivations might be I do think that's quite important.


----------



## Sue (Dec 10, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It does seem to me that the parents on here have been a lot less in favour of closing schools throughout all this than a lot of others tbh. Whatever the government's motivations might be I do think that's quite important.


Well that's because it's the parents that have to deal with homeschooling and all the rest of it so yeah.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It does seem to me that the parents on here have been a lot less in favour of closing schools throughout all this than a lot of others tbh. Whatever the government's motivations might be I do think that's quite important.



Also teachers who have seen the impact on kids of the last two extended periods of school closure.


----------



## elbows (Dec 10, 2021)

Yes. The effect of school holidays demonstrates why authorities are sometimes forced to vastly reduce the number of children in schools at times during this pandemic, but education and broader support/contact with children is very important.

I suppose the way I would tackle it would be to take much more pandemic action on other fronts, because if you can keep levels of infection in the community down to a certain level, there is much greater potential to avoid disrupting childrens education so much. Plus unlike other countries, our attempts to mitigate spread within school buildings etc was pathetic and done on the cheap.

Some government rhetoric about how much they prioritised childrens education would be laudible if only it were true, they were too desperate to keep pubs etc open for as long as possible and so often paid mere lip service to the stated priorities.


----------



## Thora (Dec 10, 2021)

Just been told Ofsted have suspended inspections for the rest of term so schools and early years settings can focus on getting contingency planning in place for January


----------



## nagapie (Dec 10, 2021)

Thora said:


> Just been told Ofsted have suspended inspections for the rest of term so schools and early years settings can focus on getting contingency planning in place for January


So they've suspended inspections for one week, how big of them. 
Mind you they're the first to cancel when schools start turning into hotbeds of infection.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 10, 2021)

Letter home from daughter's school: her year (8) is WFH her last week of term (next week) as is Year 9


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Letter home from daughter's school: her year (8) is WFH her last week of term (next week) as is Year 9



Lots of it about. Not enough healthy staff. Not just covid either; two years into this pandemic shit and sheer burnout is really starting to kick in for many teachers.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 10, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of it about. Not enough healthy staff. Not just covid either; two years into this pandemic shit and sheer burnout is really starting to kick in for many teachers.


Of course, this Government Of Cunts will regard burnout as lazy staff swinging the lead. Because they're cunts.


----------



## May Kasahara (Dec 11, 2021)

Sue said:


> Well that's because it's the parents that have to deal with homeschooling and all the rest of it so yeah.


That's not the only reason. I want my kids in school because it's better for them, they learn better, they thrive with their mates and the structure and the normality. They're bright, capable and old enough to self-manage their learning at home. Still far better off in school.

Like nagapie, I would far rather see more stringent measures elsewhere in order to protect education and educators.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 11, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> That's not the only reason. I want my kids in school because it's better for them, they learn better, they thrive with their mates and the structure and the normality. They're bright, capable and old enough to self-manage their learning at home. Still far better off in school.
> 
> Like nagapie, I would far rather see more stringent measures elsewhere in order to protect education and educators.


can't disagree despite this meaning less work for me


----------



## Mattym (Dec 11, 2021)

As a teacher, I quite liked online learning last time. It's much easier to just get up and teach rather than have to commute however far. There were far fewer behavioural issues online (for obvious reasons), but I want to avoid it happening again, because the knock on effect is that all school leaders and OFSTED are going on about now is the loss in learning gains/ the big catch up, which is, of course, concerning, but nobody is genuinely looking at the more important loss in social gains, whether pupils have lost the ability to concentrate irl or the ability to interact in a learning conducive way in the classroom. I mean of course some parents and teachers will be and staff involved on the pastoral side of things, but everything from the top is results driven, as usual.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2021)

Mattym said:


> As a teacher, I quite liked online learning last time. It's much easier to just get up and teach rather than have to commute however far. There were far fewer behavioural issues online (for obvious reasons), but I want to avoid it happening again, because the knock on effect is that all school leaders and OFSTED are going on about now is the loss in learning gains/ the big catch up, which is, of course, concerning, but nobody is genuinely looking at the more important loss in social gains, whether pupils have lost the ability to concentrate irl or the ability to interact in a learning conducive way in the classroom. I mean of course some parents and teachers will be and staff involved on the pastoral side of things, but everything from the top is results driven, as usual.



It seems to be universally accepted that things like concentration, emotional regulation, and knock-on effects on 'behaviour' have all slid backwards by the equivalent of at least a year of normal development. The kids themselves are aware of this, and it's a source of real sadness for many of them.


----------



## Mattym (Dec 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It seems to be universally accepted that things like concentration, emotional regulation, and knock-on effects on 'behaviour' have all slid backwards by the equivalent of at least a year of normal development. The kids themselves are aware of this, and it's a source of real sadness for many of them.


Totally this. There seems to be many more who are experiencing panic attacks in our place. It's a hard world for many of them and not being made any easier by this stupid drive to identify and rectify gaps in learning (ie. positive data to put in front of the OFSTED inspector) and without applying a more holistic approach.


----------



## May Kasahara (Dec 11, 2021)

Don't even get me started on fucking cunting Ofsted


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Don't even get me started on fucking cunting Ofsted



Yeah they really outdid themselves with the announcement that they'll be inspecting everyone ASAP. Staggeringly tone deaf.


----------



## May Kasahara (Dec 11, 2021)

Not just an announcement IME. I can't talk about it on here. But the damage done has been staggering and unforgivable.


----------



## Mattym (Dec 11, 2021)

May Kasahara said:


> Not just an announcement IME. I can't talk about it on here. But the damage done has been staggering and unforgivable



Wankers!


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 11, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I’ve not really posted because it feels like our luck can’t hold, but for balance, we’ve had next to no covid this school year.  No staff Covid at all.  Currently about 6-7 kids in a school of just over 1000. It’s been like this since we came back in September.  No omicron cases as yet in Lambeth.



One of the first cases was in Lambeth. It's now in every London borough.


----------



## spanglechick (Dec 11, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> One of the first cases was in Lambeth. It's now in every London borough.


Ooh.  Someone’s told some porkies…


----------



## thismoment (Dec 13, 2021)

Mattym said:


> Totally this. There seems to be many more who are experiencing panic attacks in our place. It's a hard world for many of them…


I have gone from personally never seeing student have a panic attack in over a decade in schools to 4 students just since September. The intensity of some  of the panic attacks is so worrying. I really do feel for teenagers especially with such long waiting times for services like camhs


----------



## thismoment (Dec 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of it about. Not enough healthy staff. Not just covid either; two years into this pandemic shit and sheer burnout is really starting to kick in for many teachers.


I’m not a teacher but after just a year of working in a school during the pandemic (maternity leave for the beginning of it) the burnout is real! It’s so overwhelming trying to keep up with the ever changing isolation rules, dealing with  understandably worried parents, not knowing how many people’s jobs you’re going to be helping to cover or something like the amount of time lateral flow testing takes at the beginning of the term. My original work load remains the same if not more except that it continues to pile when redeployed to covid related work or staff cover what makes it even more frustrating is some managers who find this hard to accept, that some roles in schools are having to change to make sure covid stuff gets done and gets done properly


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2021)

I went to see the Health and Safety dept at college to confirm the official policy on mask wearing given the staff have again been "instructed" by the Principal that _we need to wear masks in all communal areas unless medically exempt_. 

Official line is we can only request students wear masks. We cannot demand, we cannot punish or impose any sanctions for refusal to do so. Actual quotes from the H&S manager: "We have to be seen to be doing what we can", "Don't beat yourself up about it".

Yet they're not allowed to bring in a whole range of things; knives, alcohol, fireworks, baseball bats, etc

I do not feel safe at work.


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I do not feel safe at work


10 days isolation for positive test? Your health is worth more to you than your job, and they have to pay you for absence.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> 10 days isolation for positive test? Your health is worth more to you than your job, and they have to pay you for absence.


I'm not lying


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm not lying


Fair play

You have a level of commitment I cant match. all the best


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2021)

One kid doing a mock exam got caught reading answers he'd written on the inside of his mask. 

Nice idea, shame about the execution.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 15, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> One kid doing a mock exam got caught reading answers he'd written on the inside of his mask.
> 
> Nice idea, shame about the execution.


They EXECUTED him? I knew education was getting shit, but I didn't know it was this bad . Presumably one of these tory-funder academies?


----------



## weepiper (Dec 15, 2021)

thismoment said:


> I have gone from personally never seeing student have a panic attack in over a decade in schools to 4 students just since September. The intensity of some  of the panic attacks is so worrying. I really do feel for teenagers especially with such long waiting times for services like camhs


My middle boy is one of these. Probably ASD. I've been told CAMHS won't even take referrals from the school at the moment unless kids are immediately at risk of suicide.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 15, 2021)

weepiper said:


> My middle boy is one of these. Probably ASD. I've been told CAMHS won't even take referrals from the school at the moment unless kids are immediately at risk of suicide.


...so long as they are suicidal _enough_


----------



## LDC (Dec 15, 2021)




----------



## existentialist (Dec 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> View attachment 300971


This is righteously true, but probably requires another domain relating to "compliance". Because, if you're not compliant enough (ie., extremely compliant), discharge beckons. I've seen it happen too often for it to be an outlier.


----------



## elbows (Dec 16, 2021)

> *Schools across the UK say they are prepared to switch to online learning if they have to next term, as more children stay at home because of Covid.*
> 
> Some children are being asked to take laptops home with them before Christmas in preparation.
> 
> ...











						Omicron: Schools prepared if Covid forces online move next term
					

Some children are being asked to take laptops home with them before Christmas in case of closures.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Edie (Dec 16, 2021)

weepiper said:


> My middle boy is one of these. Probably ASD. I've been told CAMHS won't even take referrals from the school at the moment unless kids are immediately at risk of suicide.


I’d ignore that. Not sure if this is helpful as guidance: https://www.thirdspace.scot/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/ASD-Leaflet-for-Diagnostic-Teams.pdf 

I’d go to GP and request a referral to Community Child Health and CAMHS (who say they coordinate assessments for >7y in Edinburgh). 

Alternatively (and prob better) see if his Dad will fund a quick private diagnosis? In leeds most ASD diagnosis is done by a private firm called Clinical Partners, funded by the NHS. They have offices nationwide inc Edinburgh. You don’t even need a GP referral. Don’t know how much it’ll cost but they’ll gladly tell you I’m sure.

I’m not sure you’ve got time with your middle to wait. He needs a quick diagnosis then educational and social support.

sorry if you know all the above but it’s not possible for myriad of reasons.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 16, 2021)

I'd be ok with kids being at home for first half of term, but then we've got older kids, space, devices and schools able to deliver a fairly full timetable. So I appreciate the total panic the mere suggestion will be causing to others.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 16, 2021)

Meant to break up next Tuesday but...school closed from tomorrow afternoon AND meant to go back on the 4th but that's been put back to the 6th. Four extra days out of the minefield.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 27, 2021)

From the Guardian:









						England could fit Covid air filters to all classrooms for half cost of royal yacht
					

Scientists say air purifiers would help stop virus spreading in schools as fears grow of teacher shortages




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Schools, however, have said high numbers of teacher absences as a result of self-isolation could mean they are forced to send whole year groups home. *The education secretary, Nadhim Zahawi, has called on retired teachers and those who have left the profession to help fill the gaps.*


yep, send in the pensioners. What could possibly go wrong there?


----------



## zahir (Jan 4, 2022)




----------



## platinumsage (Jan 4, 2022)

zahir said:


>




I‘m not sure how vaccinating more children plus “multi-layered mitigations” would have made any difference to the current situation, given that all staff currently off sick due to Omicron would have contracted it during the Christmas holiday.


----------



## _Russ_ (Jan 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I‘m not sure how vaccinating more children plus “multi-layered mitigations” would have made any difference to the current situation, given that all staff currently off sick due to Omicron would have contracted it during the Christmas holiday.


That statement shows an incredibly short term and narrow take on the situation


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I‘m not sure how vaccinating more children plus “multi-layered mitigations” would have made any difference to the current situation, given that all staff currently off sick due to Omicron would have contracted it during the Christmas holiday.


Well, perhaps if the mitigations had been done in a timely manner, that wouldn't have been the case. And, at least, if they do the mitigations now, future problems are mitigated against. Or do we just ride off into the sunset saying "no point doing anything, it won't have an immediate effect"?


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Well, perhaps if the mitigations had been done in a timely manner, that wouldn't have been the case. And, at least, if they do the mitigations now, future problems are mitigated against. Or do we just ride off into the sunset saying "no point doing anything, it won't have an immediate effect"?



I’m not sure that Gurdasani’s criticism of the government measures is well-founded. For example, requiring child contacts of cases to stay home certainly wouldn’t decrease disruption.

Given that Omicron spread sufficiently during the school holiday to cause disruption of schools now, it can be surmised that it will continue to spread sufficiently outside of school to cause continuing disruption, and that mitigation measures targeted at schools would not mitigate this disruption.

The primary objective should therefore be to mitigate the disruption itself, rather than try in vain to stop the virus causing said disruption.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I’m not sure that Gurdasani’s criticism of the government measures is well-founded. For example, requiring child contacts of cases to stay home certainly wouldn’t decrease disruption.
> 
> Given that Omicron spread sufficiently during the school holiday to cause disruption of schools now, it can be surmised that it will continue to spread sufficiently outside of school to cause continuing disruption, and that mitigation measures targeted at schools would not mitigate this disruption.
> 
> *The primary objective should therefore be to mitigate the disruption itself, rather than try in vain to stop the virus causing said disruption.*


Rubbish. It's strategies like that which have left us lurching from crisis to crisis.

I now begin to understand what makes your take on all this so weird


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Rubbish. It's strategies like that which have left us lurching from crisis to crisis.
> 
> I now begin to understand what makes your take on all this so weird



Go on then, explain how the impact from Omicron on school staff absences can be reduced from it's current level which arose entirely when schools were completely shut.


----------



## _Russ_ (Jan 4, 2022)

You realise you are saying the present situation arised entirely during a period the schools were shut?, everything that happened before that including lack of school measure is just out of the picture?..and making any new mitigations from here on in is pointless because of this?

You've lost me matey


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 4, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> You realise you are saying the present situation arised entirely during a period the schools were shut?, everything that happened before that including lack of school measure is just out of the picture?



Lack of in-school mitigations in early December has not driven the current Omicron case rates, I don't see how that can be a reasonably-held view.



_Russ_ said:


> ..and making any new mitigations from here on in is pointless because of this?



No, I said the primary objective should be mitigating the existing disruption that this terms begins with. This means reduced isolation times for staff, no isolation for kids in contact with positive cases etc - the things that Gurdasani criticizes. Swerving these measures and focusing on trying to drive Omicron cases down via in-school mitigation is unlikely to be successful and will cause increased disruption.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> You realise you are saying the present situation arised entirely during a period the schools were shut?, everything that happened before that including lack of school measure is just out of the picture?..and making any new mitigations from here on in is pointless because of this?
> 
> You've lost me matey


I think that something a lot of people, including platinumsage, and apparently our government, seem to fail to understand is that we do things at a point in time to PREVENT consequences happening a couple of weeks down the line. There were actions that could have been taken before the schools closed to minimise the spread of infection - they weren't taken. There are actions that could be taken now that could minimise the risk of future spread - they aren't being taken.

This government has spent pretty much the entire pandemic - starting from the delay in the initial lockdown - not doing something "because there isn't a problem *now*", and then, on the back foot, having to take actions - all too often, too little and too late - to deal with the fact that their earlier failure has led to them having to deal with a much worse problem. Rinse and repeat.

In addition to which, when they _have_ started to gain some kind of advantage over the spread of this damn virus, they piss THAT up the wall by deciding that, since we've apparently "beaten the virus", we can have a Freedom Day, and abandon the very steps that made the situation look like we had it all under control.

It has been an abject farrago of bullshit, failure, and hubris. Please don't play into that.

ETA: corrected my misattributed reply.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 5, 2022)

All told on Teams this morning THIS SCHOOL WILL NOT CLOSE.

So I had words, management are better than I make them sound in those CAPS and I'm wfh for now.


----------



## _Russ_ (Jan 5, 2022)

> It has been an abject farrago of bullshit, failure, and hubris. Please don't play into that.



How the fuck am I playing into that?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 5, 2022)

We (large primary) are preparing for home learning again, in anticipation that large numbers of kids will be isolating at home or that full classes will have to close.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 5, 2022)

I had 3 absent from 29 in my year ten class today (none coded as covid in the register, though they might be), one absence from y13 (covid) and no absences from my y12s.  

Bloody loads of staff off though.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2022)

Kids at my current school are not allowed to wear coats in class for any reason. It must have been below some legal minimum temperature in some of my classes today with all the windows open. 

We've also got spare supply teachers wandering around with nothing to do because the school block-booked them before christmas despite having no idea what absences would be like. Which seems like a bit of a dick move considering the perilous staff shortages elsewhere.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 5, 2022)

Several departments at college with more than half staff absent. About a dozen students off with covid in my department.


----------



## elbows (Jan 5, 2022)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 5, 2022)

They're going to run schools into the ground, aren't they.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 8, 2022)

FFS 









						Forcing children to wear masks is dystopian, says Gruffalo author Julia Donaldson
					

Forcing pupils to wear masks in the classroom is dystopian and critics should not be smeared as Trumpian Covid-deniers, the children’s author Julia Donaldson h




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## kabbes (Jan 9, 2022)

The thing about it being dystopian is that we are actually living in a dystopia.  The masks reflect that reality, they don't cause it.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 9, 2022)

I eagerly await Chris Whitty's opinion on whether the plot of _The Gruffalo_ encourages children that deceit, if the end result is good for an individual no matter how many lies they tell, is acceptable.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2022)

S☼I said:


> I eagerly await Chris Whitty's opinion on whether the plot of _The Gruffalo_ encourages children that deceit, if the end result is good for an individual no matter how many lies they tell, is acceptable.



Considering who it pleases him to shill for for a living I think we know the answer to that.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 9, 2022)

Having tested several hundred school kids last week...

They are probably pleased to have their awful acne and wonky brace teeth covered


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 9, 2022)

My daughter's happy to wear one, she knows she's protecting others. She's a good girl, hates Boris, injustice, etc


----------



## _Russ_ (Jan 9, 2022)

spanglechick said:


> I had 3 absent from 29 in my year ten class today (none coded as covid in the register, though they might be), one absence from y13 (covid) and no absences from my y12s.
> 
> Bloody loads of staff off though.


What proportion of parents do you estimate are actually testing now?, the media narrative is definately swinging to living with it and busy parents are readily influenced to follow a path that makes life easier.


----------



## cyberfairy (Jan 9, 2022)

My ten year child has been confirmed as having covid for the second time in six fucking weeks. Still have food on fridge from last isolation shop.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 9, 2022)

I think those who have throughout are still testing, same for following mask rules etc. Those who haven't aren't.

My college has posted on social media that masks are to be worn in classrooms as well as in all communal areas. However, staff can only request masks are worn, not demand; students can be given an exemption sticker if they ask for one and staff are not allowed to ask why they're exempt; even some students wearing masks get around it by constantly pretending to be eating or sipping from a can. No staff have any way of _making_ students follow the guidelines so obviously very, very few staff even request masks are worn. I'd put mask wearing at about 25% tops around communal areas, though almost all staff are wearing them.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 9, 2022)

Teaching with a mask on is quite difficult. The students can't hear me properly and neither I them.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 9, 2022)

nagapie said:


> Teaching with a mask on is quite difficult. The students can't hear me properly and neither I them.


Teachers don't have to wear one when delivering.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 9, 2022)

S☼I said:


> Teachers don't have to wear one when delivering.


Yeah, I have to take mine down. I also ask my students to when answering questions, as long as they feel comfortable.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 9, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> What proportion of parents do you estimate are actually testing now?, the media narrative is definately swinging to living with it and busy parents are readily influenced to follow a path that makes life easier.


It’s a secondary.  I imagine most of the parents leave it up to the kids and always have.


----------



## spring-peeper (Jan 9, 2022)

From my s-i-l's facebook page.



I asked him if the book was the bible, and he had no idea what I was on about.


----------



## spring-peeper (Jan 9, 2022)

spring-peeper said:


> From my s-i-l's facebook page.
> 
> View attachment 305250
> 
> I asked him if the book was the bible, and he had no idea what I was on about.




Wrong thread 

But i see that Sue already saw it.

gonna copy it to the other thread.


----------



## elbows (Jan 20, 2022)

Sounds like penty of schools are sticking with masks for now.









						Masks to stay in many secondary schools despite England rule change
					

Headteachers across England say they plan to encourage pupils to keep wearing masks during Omicron spread




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 20, 2022)

spring-peeper said:


> From my s-i-l's facebook page.
> 
> View attachment 305250
> 
> I asked him if the book was the bible, and he had no idea what I was on about.



Clearly not that dangerous of an environment; the people shooting the fire arrows don't even know which end to light.


----------



## chilango (Jan 20, 2022)

I'm hearing of boxes containing thousands of masks arriving unsolicited at schools just hours before the no masks announcement


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 20, 2022)

We’ve had a big box sat in the corridor for a couple of weeks. It’s a primary so no requirement for them, and we have a stack of unused ones already.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 21, 2022)

Oldest's school is saying they are looking at rules now, but nothing changing this week. I think a lot of schools will keep them given the high caseload - it would seem pretty  nutty to stop at the moment. Interestingly haven't heard of any cases among oldest's friends but there were at least 10 this week at son's primary (including him), where of course there aren't any masks.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 21, 2022)

One reception class at mine has five pupils and one LSA out.


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 21, 2022)

According to the school newsletter they only have 3% of students off and the national average is 10%.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 21, 2022)

Unsurprisingly, ZOE app reporting rise in 5-18yos infected - at the  moment there's a sufficient fall in everyone else for it not to cause an overall rise. I can imagine school-age numbers causing infection to plateau at a high level for a bit.

 Having cancelled oldest's 2nd vax last week due to me and son being +, given teen and husband have remained COVID-free I think they'll go to a walk-in to get it tomorrow. School are offering 2nd round in just under a fortnight, but I think the sooner the better. If I hadn't moved my booster to just before Xmas, it would have been less than a fortnight afterwards that I caught COVID and it probably would not have been as mild as it has been.


----------



## zahir (Jan 22, 2022)




----------



## wtfftw (Jan 22, 2022)

I refuse to believe that the primary school stats are realistic. Absolutely no way everyone is effectively testing uncooperative children.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 22, 2022)

wtfftw said:


> I refuse to believe that the primary school stats are realistic. Absolutely no way everyone is effectively testing uncooperative children.


Yup ^ 

Plus no test kits available in most schools


----------



## teqniq (Jan 22, 2022)

Does this clown even have the authority to do this?









						Zahawi to vet masks in classroom after schools ignore end of rules
					

Nadhim Zahawi says local health chiefs must consult him before enforcing coverings in classrooms




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 23, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Does this clown even have the authority to do this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is ideology, pure and simple


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 24, 2022)

Lots of staff and pupils out at school now, including the head, so they’re struggling a bit. I’m symptomatic this morning (sore throat, headache, snotty, chest a bit congested) but lft last night and today both negative. I opened up the school at 7, spent barely any time in the building then came home. Priority PCR test sent off.

I’m triple jabbed and had Delta in October but also on immunosuppressants, unfortunately I took my latest dose of them last night so could be a rough ride. Last time round because I knew I’d been exposed in a meeting I immediately stopped and by the time I was symptomatic I’d not done an injection for two weeks. If I’m positive I get given the antiviral stuff as a high risk person.  Might just be a regular cold though.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 24, 2022)

We've had our first Covid fatality at college among the staff, a guy I only knew a little but who had worked here for 27 years. It's incredibly sad, he was the partner of my PGCE tutor. Mrs SI worked with her and helped move them from the flirting to the getting together phase


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 24, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Yup ^
> 
> Plus no test kits available in most schools



We gave out two packs, so 14 tests per kid a couple of weeks ago. Most kids were tested on site before the start of term. That's secondary though.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 24, 2022)

Schools round here are in bad shape, especially the primary schools we have got extra funding for testing staff to be based there, at least for a few weeks. Likely straight PCR tests for all children and staff but massive complications 😢


----------



## teqniq (Jan 24, 2022)

He's still banging on about it, issuing threats and suchlike. What an absolute scumbag:









						Schools should not defy orders to drop masks for children in classrooms, says Nadhim Zahawi
					

The Education Secretary hit back at news that some classrooms have defied orders to scrap facemasks, saying that 'all schools' should ban them so that children can 'enjoy a normal experience' in the classroom




					inews.co.uk


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 24, 2022)

teqniq said:


> He's still banging on about it, issuing threats and suchlike. What an absolute scumbag:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


orders?
reallly?


----------



## Thora (Jan 24, 2022)

Our primary school has just gone back to all the old measures - bubbles, lunch eaten in classrooms, clubs all cancelled, teachers in masks at drop off & pick up.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 26, 2022)

Possibly norovirus going round my school now, sickness and vomiting (though possible this is also corona symptom). Might actually be fortuitous that I’ve not been in other than opening/closing the building this week as just going in the foyer tonight I could see the stains on the carpet that other people have had to deal with


----------



## Badgers (Jan 27, 2022)

Just had a bit of a heartbreaking meeting this morning regards primary schools. 

They are not supplied testing kits (even the staff mostly) for the kids but have been told to write to all parent's telling they need to test their kids and get the kits themselves. Also they advise the parents to ask the teachers if they are testing correctly  

Given that locally most pharmacy staff are struggling to get kits for themselves this is just nonsense. 

Two schools now have dedicated LFT and PCR testing teams permanently on site as there are so many staff off. One of these schools has nearly 40% of pupils at home due to positive tests. 

FFS


----------



## 8ball (Jan 27, 2022)

It’s like their original plan of just infecting everybody is back in effect.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 27, 2022)

8ball said:


> It’s like their original plan of just infecting everybody is back in effect.


Government said primary schools are fine. 
Primary are now fucked. 
DfE quietly tells the schools kids needs to test. 
No tests available. 

Have been supplying (tests/staff) what I can to help but officially I am a bad man misallocting funds 🙄


----------



## elbows (Jan 27, 2022)

Eyewatering figures.


----------



## elbows (Jan 27, 2022)




----------



## Badgers (Jan 27, 2022)

elbows said:


> Eyewatering figures.



Those numbers are conservative at best.


----------



## elbows (Jan 27, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Those numbers are conservative at best.



General covid infection situation is still bad everywhere, but especially there has been a more obvious rising trend in various parts of the South East and South West in the last few weeks, so recent conditions locally probably contribute to your sense of quite how bad things are right now.

I say that as a general point using general data, eg when looking at overall positive test numbers for all ages for each region of England, but I expect that bad trend continues if we zoom in more specifically.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2022)

Staff back to breaking point with the absence situation now. Nobody has a free minute when they're not covering for someone who's off sick or sorting out work for their classes etc. The whole sector is being kept afloat by short-term and agency staff, many of whom won't get sick pay if they catch covid. Oddly enough, a lot of long-term vacancies are going unfilled. Anyone who can get out of the accursed school system is doing so.

Many of the more troubled kids are going downhill as well. For many school will be the one moderately dependable thing in their lives, but for years now it's been anything but. And then Johnson gets rid of masks and self-isolation to buy himself another fortnight's favour with his idiot arsehole backbenchers. I think I'm too tired to even be angry about that tbh.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 29, 2022)

My school introduced new rules early in january (masks in all communal areas) and there were about 5 days were most years were only doing half days in school because of staff absence, but then rates went right down in the school and area and there is very little absence so it is back to voluntary masks as of last week.


----------



## elbows (Jan 31, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Does this clown even have the authority to do this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clown tests positive:









						Education Secretary Nadhim Zahawi tests positive for Covid
					

Nadhim Zahawi says he plans to work from home as he self-isolates.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2022)

elbows said:


> Clown tests positive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wish covid the best of luck at this difficult time etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 1, 2022)

Our school is out of LFTs now. None on the way from the government. About eight teachers off with covid, dozens of kids.

Bloke who was sat in a crowded staffroom with no mask at lunchtime yesterday coughing profusely tested positive last night


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2022)

Rife in BB2's school, her bezza who was round on Thursday for a playdate now has it, the lad she went to his house Friday for a playdate, he has it, now at lunchtime today her form teacher went home with it!


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 1, 2022)

Three more kids off with it (we only have about 20 on a good day), one staff and two other staff with childcare issues because of it. It seems rife around here and it's a miracle I haven't caught it. I'm careful but it's literally impossible with our kids to social distance all day. Yay for vaccines and masks I guess. Because it certainly isn't my immune system.

This children's wave seems to be persistent.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2022)

BB2’s bezza is on her second dose of plague, first one was October time, so not long between them. She has 2 siblings who haven’t had it and neither have her mum or dad.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 1, 2022)

It is (as usual) a fucking mess caused by the partying, lying #ToryScum 😡

As expected by anyone with a brain the virus has taken hold.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 1, 2022)

Just looked at the figures for today (well, yesterday's case figures). 

edit:  ignore me - they've done a statistical correction thing


----------



## chilango (Feb 1, 2022)

I literally don't know any Primary aged families who _haven't_ had it since December.


----------



## zahir (Feb 1, 2022)

It's anecdotal but I'm seeing reports of children getting reinfected at short intervals, in some cases getting more ill the second time round, and in some cases catching it more than twice.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 1, 2022)

zahir said:


> It's anecdotal but I'm seeing reports of children getting reinfected at short intervals, in some cases getting more ill the second time round, and in some cases catching it more than twice.



Perhaps kids getting Delta, then Omicron, then BA.2?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 1, 2022)

zahir said:


> It's anecdotal but I'm seeing reports of children getting reinfected at short intervals, in some cases getting more ill the second time round, and in some cases catching it more than twice.


Yes. Have had a lot of parents asking how this is possible and what is happening next 

Now I tell them to contact their MP


----------



## zahir (Feb 1, 2022)




----------



## wtfftw (Feb 1, 2022)

What do we think will happen first? Vaccinating kids or stopping isolation?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 1, 2022)

wtfftw said:


> What do we think will happen first? Vaccinating kids or stopping isolation?


tEh economy


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2022)

Several of my students off still, including two who were in sessions of mine this afternoon and who have both tested positive since they got home. Our department is under some scrutiny at the moment and though Covid is rife among students and staff you can bet your sweet bippy the Quality Team will be demanding to know why attendance to English and Maths is shit and if the missing students are working from home during their illnesses. 

Meanwhile I'm one of about twenty people I've seen wearing a mask out of hundreds


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 2, 2022)

I do worry about how much school my eldest is missing (Year 1), not that he’s even had a confirmed case but due to time off when we had it and couldn’t take him in, plus now 4 days off for sickness bug as you have to wait 48 hours before going back in (he had this on Wednesday, good for a few days then threw up everywhere Sunday night). Teacher was also off for the previous week (not Covid but the other nasty cold going about) with the TAs/LSAs holding the reigns. Very disruptive year so far.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Feb 2, 2022)

S☼I said:


> Several of my students off still, including two who were in sessions of mine this afternoon and who have both tested positive since they got home. Our department is under some scrutiny at the moment and though Covid is rife among students and staff you can bet your sweet bippy the Quality Team will be demanding to know why attendance to English and Maths is shit and if the missing students are working from home during their illnesses.
> 
> Meanwhile I'm one of about twenty people I've seen wearing a mask out of hundreds


yup I keep wearing a good quality mask even though virtually no one on campus does
I don't care even if  students and colleagues think I'm a bit odd 
I don't want to be unwell for even a couple of weeks right now


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 2, 2022)

chilango said:


> I literally don't know any Primary aged families who _haven't_ had it since December.




BB2 is in year 4 and as far as we know no one in our house has had it. (Kiss of death right there).

Her form teacher went home after a positive test at lunchtime yesterday, she’s doing online Zoom teaching for the rest of the week, these people are so committed to their jobs, truly wonderful.


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## 2hats (Feb 2, 2022)

zahir said:


>



Given that innate immune response probably plays a greater role in young children than (an as yet largely untrained) adaptive response (DOI: 10.1172/jci.insight.148694) _and_ given that omicron-lineage appears to (at least try to) sidestep features of the innate immune response (DOI: 10.1101/2022.01.20.476754) _and_ given vaccine performance in the very young (may need multiple low doses), then this might not be entirely surprising.


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## PursuedByBears (Feb 2, 2022)

21 members of staff off in Mrs B's school today; 19 with covid.  She's back in today after two negative LFTs in a row.


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## Dogsauce (Feb 2, 2022)

I wonder if any of this would make the news and lead to pressure for changes if we weren’t distracted by that asshole‘s partying?  It’s proper bad out there right now.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 4, 2022)

A nearby school had 180 out of 700-odd kids off with covid this week.

Others have sent entire year groups home for want of staff.


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## Badgers (Feb 5, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> A nearby school had 180 out of 700-odd kids off with covid this week.
> 
> Others have sent entire year groups home for want of staff.


Not seen this in the news 🤔


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## mr steev (Feb 5, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> A nearby school had 180 out of 700-odd kids off with covid this week.
> 
> Others have sent entire year groups home for want of staff.



Pupils at a secondary school near me are doing a 4 day week, with each year taking a different day off to cope with shortages


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## Riklet (Feb 8, 2022)

I hope all the daft cunts saying there was no reason to vaccinate children and whipping up (social) media hysteria are happy with themselves.

You only have to look at the data to see that children are currently a key part of covid transmission. Higher rates for all "parent aged" adults everywhere. Much lower for older people and also for younger adults, despite likely socialising etc. And extremely high rates still in under 12 age groups...


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## elbows (Feb 9, 2022)

Riklet said:


> I hope all the daft cunts saying there was no reason to vaccinate children and whipping up (social) media hysteria are happy with themselves.


Fine to moan at them but in the UK the establishment proved itself more than capable of fucking up the vaccine timing for children and younger people without the influence of such groups. It wasnt treated as a priority at all, claims that childrens education was a priority were not matched by timely policies on this front at all.


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## zahir (Feb 12, 2022)

Getting children back to school.









						DfE is ‘criminalising parents’ in England, say families still shielding from Covid
					

Parents facing prosecution for home schooling say vulnerable children and relatives’ safety comes before school attendance




					www.theguardian.com


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 12, 2022)

zahir said:


> Getting children back to school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My school's big focus at the moment is attendance. Cheered me right up to get home after work on friday and see the email with this week's attendance stats; big red down arrows for all year groups. Because where we are is in the middle of the biggest covid spike in the country right now. So some tosspot getting paid three times what I do for actually teaching has spent their entire week pissing in the wind.


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## zahir (Feb 15, 2022)

Pandemic over, so no need to worry about ventilation anymore.


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## Dogsauce (Feb 16, 2022)

‘No hoodies no caps’. Fucking state of that, is this another chain with Victorian Dad fantasies about discipline and appearance.


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## Agent Sparrow (Feb 16, 2022)

Seems that jabs have finally been approved in England for all 5-11 year olds. Could have done with that a couple of months ago given I’m pretty sure we got it from my youngest!


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2022)

School is closed tomorrow because of Eunice. 

Not really a covid thing at all I'm just really, really happy about it


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## Dogsauce (Feb 17, 2022)

Same here. I’ve been told explicitly not to go in as it’s unsafe. I do have a bit of work I can do at home though, an might bob up once the worst has passed to check for fallen branches etc.


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## planetgeli (Feb 17, 2022)

Next week is half-term, today and tomorrow were down as inset days. For training. The new scip, called team teach. Or how to physically handle a pupil without getting sued.

Anyway. I turn up and it's 3 centres together, at least 40 staff. All in a small building. Like fuck am I going in there but nice head immediately grabs me and tells me I can do it with one other colleague in a separate classroom. So far so good. For me anyway. Because one of those 40 staff is my mate who has come back on the 10th day of his Covid. STILL POSITIVE. Coughing like a good 'un. Back because the sickness policy will kick in (because of half-term) if he doesn't. How fucking ridiculous is that? Pressured into doing that?

He didn't get sent home. And nobody complained because I work largely with a bunch of idiots who think Covid is over or just a bit of a cold. These are people who know I'm vulnerable. And these are people who have seen another senior member of staff be hit with long covid in a way that you wouldn't wish on anyone.

Fuck them. I had a good day away from them.

And fuck their stupid sickness policy where 10 days triggers a meeting but allowing someone knowingly with covid in a room with 40 staff is acceptable.

And yeah closed because it's armageddon here tomorrow.


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## Dogsauce (Feb 17, 2022)

One of the office staff is now in hospital with pneumonia, though don’t know if it’s Covid related, I know she had it last year. Could be the other thing going round at the moment which I had a few weeks back. She will be vaccinated as she’s not an idiot, and one of her daughters works in one of the testing labs which she often talks about.


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## existentialist (Feb 17, 2022)

Pretty much everyone I know who's caught Covid recently has identified their kids as the source of the infection.

And lots of those are feeling really very rough. For quite a long time, and counting.


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## Agent Sparrow (Feb 18, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Pretty much everyone I know who's caught Covid recently has identified their kids as the source of the infection.
> 
> And lots of those are feeling really very rough. For quite a long time, and counting.


I can’t be certain but I think I got it right at the beginning, and again more recently. The former would have been from work, the latter probably from my youngest. Despite being triple vaxxed I was more ill for the active illness part the second time round. Whilst that might have been because it’s mutated to an upper respiratory tract infection (I’m very susceptible to them), it was probably because the weekend before my poorly daughter sat on my lap and breathed right into my face for ages. A large viral hit to get at once which is what happens if you get it from your children, especially if they need comforting when poorly. My colleagues, unsurprisingly, don’t sit on my lap often.

(Tbf I do seem to be fine now whereas before I had horrible headaches that would last for weeks for some months afterwards)


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