# Too late for a PGCE application?



## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

I was halfway through a PGCE application five years ago but went back to an industry I hate because it was enough to pay the mortgage and there was a baby on the way.

I've now spent give years in a hateful dysfunctional workplace. I've been furloughed for three months and got a letter a couple of days ago announcing restructuring and redundancies. Once I'd got over the shock I found I was more scared of going back than I am of getting made redundant (or worse stuck on a shit shift/less money).

Teaching websites say they're still looking for teachers. I'm fluent in Mandarin and could probably whip my French into shape if I had to. It seems I could get a 26 grand bursary. Sounds too good to be true surely? Will it be too late eto apply this year? Am I too old at 46?

I've already contacted one of my previous references and she's still alive and happy to help. I can probably scrape one up from somewhere else.

Am I too late, am I too old? I know it's hard work but better than a job that's made me genuinely miserable and ill time and time again surely? And just the qualification would allow me to get out of London. My current job is very London centric.

Any ideas/warnings/advice?


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 20, 2020)

I was a year older than you are now when I started mine. I did it in one year - and I'm not gonna lie, it was a lot of work. But it was good. Mine was a PGCE in the Lifelong Learning sector. And I've ended up not teaching, but without the PGCE I doubt if have got this job.

Go for it, really.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> I was halfway through a PGCE application five years ago but went back to an industry I hate because it was enough to pay the mortgage and there was a baby on the way.
> 
> I've now spent give years in a hateful dysfunctional workplace. I've been furloughed for three months and got a letter a couple of days ago announcing restructuring and redundancies. Once I'd got over the shock I found I was more scared of going back than I am of getting made redundant (or worse stuck on a shit shift/less money).
> 
> ...



I was looking at PGCE courses in East London and there are shitloads. No way in hell they'll all be full by now. The only issue with timescale could be getting a DBS, which takes two months in normal times and probably longer now. Luckily I was able to use my DBS certficate from my previous job.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I was looking at PGCE courses in East London and there are shitloads. No way in hell they'll all be full by now. The only issue with timescale could be getting a DBS, which takes two months in normal times and probably longer now. Luckily I was able to use my DBS certficate from my previous job.


Modern languages with Mandarin (primary or secondary) restricts me to Wickford or Goldsmiths. I live pretty much halfway between them. Never had a DBS but nothing to fear.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 20, 2020)

Worth knowing that to get your bursary you'll need to provide original copies of your qualification certificates, including GCSEs and A levels.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Worth knowing that to get your bursary you'll need to provide original copies of your qualification certificates, including GCSEs and A levels.


Jesus. That could prove difficult.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Jesus. That could prove difficult.



Yeah I eventually found my A levels at the bottom of a box of broken electronic crap in my dad's attic. GCSEs were in my mum's attic. It never occured to me I'd need them for anything, I assumed that this being the future and all there'd be an easily-checkable database of who has what qualifications.

The exam boards are utter cunts with this stuff as well. You can send off for copies of your A levels but it costs 40-50 quid per exam board, takes over a month and if it turns out they don't have any records on you they keep your money anyway. Oh, and the service is suspended indefinitely with no refunds for those who have already paid. You can request your information from them under data protection or whatever but the letter you'll get back won't count as proof of your qualifications.


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## planetgeli (Jun 20, 2020)

Exam certs can be a bugger and I know more than one person on more than one occasion who has been shafted by this. I hang onto nothing. Somehow I still have mine.

Only thing I'd say maomao is are you sure there's a job at the end of it for those languages. I honestly don't know. But I do know a fuckton of people in Wales with Welsh as their subject (and, especially, P.E) who cannot get jobs. P.E I can understand but you'd have thought teaching Welsh in Wales would be easy to get a job. A friend of mine who is extremely academic and brilliant has just take 4 years to get a permanent Welsh teaching job in a school.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Exam certs can be a bugger and I know more than one person on more than one occasion who has been shafted by this. I hang onto nothing. Somehow I still have mine.
> 
> Only thing I'd say maomao is are you sure there's a job at the end of it for those languages. I honestly don't know. But I do know a fuckton of people in Wales with Welsh as their subject (and, especially, P.E) who cannot get jobs. P.E I can understand but you'd have thought teaching Welsh in Wales would be easy to get a job. A friend of mine who is extremely academic and brilliant has just take 4 years to get a permanent Welsh teaching job in a school.


I've been through the emails from last time I was applying and I was trying for Mandarin and EAL. EAL would be easietr to get a job with.

And I found I'd been discussing missing exam certificates already. Seems they only wanted English and Maths. Probably means it's not worth asking my mum again as I probably asked five years ago. I've been through country moves and floods and stuff since I did my GCSEs so I reckon they're gone.

At the moment me and my wife are both fed up of London and are debating either Scotland or China. It would give me a much better chance of a job in either of those places than I currently have.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

DP


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## Sweet FA (Jun 20, 2020)

I think you'll be too late for a September start tbh but you never know. No, you're not too old. I didn't have any certs either but after a fair amount of fannying about and throwing people money to basically print stuff off, I got it sorted.


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## xenon (Jun 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah I eventually found my A levels at the bottom of a box of broken electronic crap in my dad's attic. GCSEs were in my mum's attic. It never occured to me I'd need them for anything, I assumed that this being the future and all there'd be an easily-checkable database of who has what qualifications.
> 
> The exam boards are utter cunts with this stuff as well. You can send off for copies of your A levels but it costs 40-50 quid per exam board, takes over a month and if it turns out they don't have any records on you they keep your money anyway. Oh, and the service is suspended indefinitely with no refunds for those who have already paid. You can request your information from them under data protection or whatever but the letter you'll get back won't count as proof of your qualifications.



WTF.

What if you can't remember which exam board they were taken under and the school you took some of them at is long closed. You presumably have to write to them all. pfft.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 20, 2020)

Isn't Scotland different btw? It's not as easy as doing a PGCE in England then applying for jobs in Scotland. I could be wrong but I think I looked into it a few years ago. Might be different now.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 20, 2020)

xenon said:


> WTF.
> 
> What if you can't remember which exam board they were taken under and the school you took some of them at is long closed. pfft.


I was in that situation and it was OK.


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## planetgeli (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> I've been through the emails from last time I was applying and I was trying for Mandarin and EAL. EAL would be easietr to get a job with.
> 
> And I found I'd been discussing missing exam certificates already. Seems they only wanted English and Maths. Probably means it's not worth asking my mum again as I probably asked five years ago. I've been through country moves and floods and stuff since I did my GCSEs so I reckon they're gone.
> 
> At the moment me and my wife are both fed up of London and are debating either Scotland or China. It would give me a much better chance of a job in either of those places than I currently have.



You can do maths and English equivalency tests. Its not a problem.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

Well I'll talk to them on Monday anyway. Still think I need to take a chance and get out of my current job. I'm sure we can struggle through an extra year if I am too late for 2020.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> You can do maths and English equivalency tests. Its not a problem.


A few fellow students in my PGCE class were doing Functional Skills Maths. The year after they stopped accepting anyone who didn't have Maths and English GCSE C or equivalent when they applied.


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## planetgeli (Jun 20, 2020)

S☼I said:


> A few fellow students in my PGCE class were doing Functional Skills Maths. The year after they stopped accepting anyone who didn't have Maths and English GCSE C or equivalent when they applied.



Functional skills is different to an equivalency test though. AFAIK most universities offering PGCE still offer their own Maths and English equivalency tests. And the equivalency tests are easier than GCSE, cover less ground. Even with GCSE being heavily dumbed down these days.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 20, 2020)

I had to do GCSE maths before I could apply.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

Well I'll talk to them on Monday. My mum's having a look but I'm not holding out much hope of that. Maybe just get everything ship shape and perfect for a 2021 application and just put up with whatever the next 12 months throws at us. Not keen on going back to work where I was at all though.

Other thing is they expect you to do a few hours in school experience and I don't think that's going to be a goer with the 12 to a class bubble thing at the moment, and secondary aren't open for classes at all.


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## spanglechick (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Well I'll talk to them on Monday. My mum's having a look but I'm not holding out much hope of that. Maybe just get everything ship shape and perfect for a 2021 application and just put up with whatever the next 12 months throws at us. Not keen on going back to work where I was at all though.
> 
> Other thing is they expect you to do a few hours in school experience and I don't think that's going to be a goer with the 12 to a class bubble thing at the moment, and secondary aren't open for classes at all.



Maybe. But a lack of adults is a big part of the problem. If you could commit to a Specific year 10 bubble in a secondary, it might be possible. though I’d think a dbs would be needed first.

I didn’t know about the bursary.  It’s enormous! Didn’t exist in my day.

Regarding your languages, I’m going to page gaijingirl - who will have a better idea about the employment prospects for teaching a non-standard mfl.


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## equationgirl (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Well I'll talk to them on Monday. My mum's having a look but I'm not holding out much hope of that. Maybe just get everything ship shape and perfect for a 2021 application and just put up with whatever the next 12 months throws at us. Not keen on going back to work where I was at all though.
> 
> Other thing is they expect you to do a few hours in school experience and I don't think that's going to be a goer with the 12 to a class bubble thing at the moment, and secondary aren't open for classes at all.


If you want to teach in Scotland you would need to do a pgce here, I'm not sure what the bursary arrangements are. But I can check if you want? You never know, might be the start of a whole new life.

And Scotland is awesome.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> If you want to teach in Scotland you would need to do a pgce here, I'm not sure what the bursary arrangements are. But I can check if you want? You never know, might be the start of a whole new life.
> 
> And Scotland is awesome.


Need a pgde. Or pgce and three years teaching experience. I'd move to Edinburgh tomorrow but wife not so keen. Doesn't like the even darker winters.


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## equationgirl (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Need a pgde. Or pgce and three years teaching experience. I'd move to Edinburgh tomorrow but wife not so keen. Doesn't like the even darker winters.


Don't move to Aberdeen, would be my advice. Longer lighter summers though. Would she consider Glasgow?


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## Hollis (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Other thing is they expect you to do a few hours in school experience and I don't think that's going to be a goer with the 12 to a class bubble thing at the moment, and secondary aren't open for classes at all.



Wouldn't you want to get that before you commit to a PGCE anyway? - I worked in a school for a couple years (in a support role) and it's a real bloody eye-opener if you've not been near a school for years.. I can see why they call it a vocation.


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## nagapie (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Need a pgde. Or pgce and three years teaching experience. I'd move to Edinburgh tomorrow but wife not so keen. Doesn't like the even darker winters.


So do you need a PGCE for China, can you not get by with a TEFL/TESOL qualification? Especially considering you are fluent in Mandarin.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

nagapie said:


> So do you need a PGCE for China, can you not get by with a TEFL/TESOL qualification? Especially considering you are fluent in Mandarin.


You don't need one at all. In fact I taught there for years without any teaching qualifications. It would be very attractive to employers though.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Don't move to Aberdeen, would be my advice. Longer lighter summers though. Would she consider Glasgow?


I have roots in Edinburgh and we go there a lot. I don't think I'd consider Glasgow lol.


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## nagapie (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> You don't need one at all. In fact I taught there for years without any teaching qualifications. It would be very attractive to employers though.


My vote is for China then. You will at least be in a country that knows how to handle CV  Besides I'm with your wife on Scotland, nice place but shame about the weather.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

nagapie said:


> My vote is for China then. You will at least be in a country that knows how to handle CV  Besides I'm with your wife on Scotland, nice place but shame about the weather.


Yeah well I'm on team Scotland lol.


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## baldrick (Jun 20, 2020)

Applications for Sept are definitely still open if that's a concern. Some places may be full but that's not the same as having missed the deadline. My husband is also looking at starting a PGCE this year. How exactly it will work come September I don't really know but you could def get a place still. Depending on demand the lack of classroom experience is not a barrier necessarily, obviously it's preferable but now there's a recognition that's not really been possible for a number of months anyway, so you shouldn't hold back for a year just because of that.


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## Sue (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Yeah well I'm on team Scotland lol.


My cousin's from Edinburgh and would like to move back there. His wife's from Sydney and won't because of the weather. They're currently in London (which tbf is where they met) but they now have two small kids and a very small flat and are struggling to afford anything bigger. If they're going to move, they're keen to do so before their elder kid starts school so they've got about 18 months to sort it out...


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## nagapie (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Yeah well I'm on team Scotland lol.


Yes, I'm sure the Scots will be out with their pitchforks 😂


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## hegley (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Need a pgde. Or pgce and three years teaching experience. I'd move to Edinburgh tomorrow but wife not so keen. Doesn't like the even darker winters.


I spent the first 30 years of my life living in the SE of England and then the 20 years after that moving progressively further north finally settling in Scotland and working in Edinburgh. The winters are a horrible struggle for me tbh. Every move north has been in early springtime, which I think helps - if you end up thinking of starting a course in 2021, I'd definitely recommend moving at the end of the winter if you can. I use a SAD lamp from Sept/Oct onwards - psychologically helps a bit. As does planning winter - the run up to Xmas is usually bearable, and then I kid myself we've got past the shortest day; a short break for some winter sun is great if finances/logistics allow in Jan/Feb, then it's just a case of gritting your teeth for a few more weeks until the clocks change in March ...


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

Any moves of country are at least a couple of years in the future and they're both places where we've spent a lot of time. 

I've signed up to speak to an advisor on Monday, my mum's looking for the GCSEs and it's Yorkshire pudding night tonight.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 20, 2020)

Unis need all the students that they can get right now so apply


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## gaijingirl (Jun 20, 2020)

So my main language when I did my PGCE was Japanese but it wasn't possible to do a PGCE in that - I had to do it in French & Spanish (it's hard to do it with one language - most training providers require two) and offer Japanese as an "extra".  In the end I did teach Japanese as my first language for 8 years but when that job came to an end I was unable to find another teaching Japanese and so now I teach French and Spanish.  I did my PGCE at Goldsmiths.  Having Mandarin is usually a good thing to have as an "extra" although you will find some schools advertising for a Mandarin teacher (more than Japanese these days for sure).  However, there are also private companies offering Mandarin teachers privately to schools - at my current school we teach Mandarin widely - we have two Mandarin teachers and a Mandarin TA but they are bought in from an outside agency.  They don't have PGCEs.

I don't know if you're too late and I don't know anything about the bursary - 26K really??  However, you're not too old as long as you're happy to go in at the bottom of the payscale (or near the bottom if you're lucky).

My only warning would be to say - be very, very careful about what school you take a job in.  You talk about hateful, dysfunctional workplaces but there are many schools (mainly MATS) where this is fine-tuned and perfected.

I think you might struggle to get experience right now to be honest though.  You might get away with it given the current circumstances - you don't really have anything to lose by trying right?

If you can get past all of that, it's an amazing profession despite the ridiculous hours and pressures, but you do really have to want to do it.  It's a vocation rather than a job, in my opinion.

Good luck!


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

gaijingirl said:


> You talk about hateful, dysfunctional workplaces but there are many schools (mainly MATS) where this is fine-tuned and perfected.



Thanks 

Do you ever get called a cunt in front of an office full of people and end up putting up with it because the only alternative is walking out penniless? I would have walked long ago if it wasn't for the kids. If it can be 5% more civilised than that I can manage.

The plan last time was to do EAL and Mandarin. EAL is quite in demand I believe. My degree is linguistics and Chinese so it makes sense.

And I have always wanted to be a teacher. Both my parents were. I've taught English abroad before and liked it though I think I would have been better at it if I'd been trained first. And even if it doesn't work out long term it gives me a lot more options.


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## nagapie (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Do you ever get called a cunt in front of an office full of people and end up putting up with it because the only alternative is walking out penniless? I would have walked long ago if it wasn't for the kids. If it can be 5% more civilised than that I can manage.
> 
> The plan last time was to do EAL and Mandarin. EAL is quite in demand I believe. My degree is linguistics and Chinese so it makes sense.
> 
> And I have always wanted to be a teacher. Both my parents were. I've taught English abroad before and liked it though I think I would have been better at it if I'd been trained first. And even if it doesn't work out long term it gives me a lot more options.


I can't imagine there are that many jobs in schools for EAL. Firstly it's an area that is always in the front line for cuts. Secondly it's always a small department. But I think you should just go for the subjects you most want to do, there is always a job out there with teaching. And you can do supply for a while. For example even when teachers were in such short supply in London, the SW had too many as many people want to live there. But you can find temp jobs and work them into perms eventually.


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## scifisam (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Thanks
> 
> Do you ever get called a cunt in front of an office full of people and end up putting up with it because the only alternative is walking out penniless? I would have walked long ago if it wasn't for the kids. If it can be 5% more civilised than that I can manage.
> 
> ...



Being called a cunt is a very common experience in teaching, yes. I'm not sure I'd ever call it civilised, TBH. 

EAL isn't particularly in demand TBH - it's one of the hardest subjects in which to get a permanent job in a state school. Could you possibly do an English PGCE instead? Usually that wouldn't be possible if it's not your main subject, but I think it might be a bit different now. 

Is it secondary you're aiming for or primary? Primary doesn't have as much of a focus on a specialist subject. It's a shame it's going to be so difficult to get experience at difference key stages at the moment, because that would make a big difference. However, there might be TA jobs going come September if you decide to wait a year.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 20, 2020)

xenon said:


> What if you can't remember which exam board they were taken under and the school you took some of them at is long closed. You presumably have to write to them all. pfft.



This is exactly where I was at with my A levels. All I could remember was that there were at least two different exam boards involved. The college in question has since been absorbed into a different college fifty miles away, somehow, so phoning them up didn't seem likely to be much help.

But fwiw maomao the course I'm signed up for recently told me that the Department for Education deadline for providing proof of qualifications had been pushed back to November 30th. This change only happened about a week ago; presumably some bright spark realised they need teachers slightly more than they need worm-eaten bits of paper from 25 years ago.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

> Is it secondary you're aiming for or primary? Primary doesn't have as much of a focus on a specialist subject. It's a shame it's going to be so difficult to get experience at difference key stages at the moment, because that would make a big difference. However, there might be TA jobs going come September if you decide to wait a year.



I like primary tbh. Maybe I'll feel differently when my kids are bigger though. Feels like a hard call cause you're stuck one side of the divide either way. 

Thanks all for all the ideas, experience and encouragement. Need to talk this through with my wife as well as the adviser on Monday.


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## maomao (Jun 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Could you possibly do an English PGCE instead?


Thanks for saying that. I think I can with a linguistics degree and a-level English. There's a ten grand bursary which is not to be sniffed at and I can probably find somewhere nearer to study.


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## nagapie (Jun 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Thanks for saying that. I think I can with a linguistics degree and a-level English. There's a ten grand bursary which is not to be sniffed at and I can probably find somewhere nearer to study.


Just be warned, heaviest workload of any subject - and that's saying something.


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

Well I've just been made redundant (8.30 on a Monday morning, I was hoping it was that teacher recruitment people when the phone rang) so that's rather forced my hand. I will be kept on furlough till that runs out first though. So will push ahead with applications and if it doesn't work will look for TA job and try and get in that way.


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

Have been told school experience requirements are now dropped in response to C19 and I have up to September to apply. In a bit of a state right now. There are many more courses on offer for English than Modern languages with Mandarin. Going to work my way through the courses tomorrow morning before the kids get up. 

Looks like I can get extra money for kids and childcare too which will be really important if my wife manages to get a job.


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2020)

Fuck maomao, so sorry to hear you've been made redundant. Even if you hate the job it's still shitty when it happens. Take today to feel the feelings and look to the future tomorrow. Thinking of you.


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2020)

Also, would you be happy doing English or would you prefer to do languages?


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Also, would you be happy doing English or would you prefer to do languages?


English at secondary is what I've decided on. Hard work I know but thast means there's always demand. I really only have one foreign language anyway. Linguistics really should count as relevant to English and I have a B in A-Level English too. I believe I qualify and would be happy to do SKE if needed.

Ex-boss is happy to provide reference and my old Uni teacher is still alive, working (I think she's 71 this year) and happy to help so that's the two needed. Just need to get over my fear of forms now.


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2020)

maomao said:


> English at secondary is what I've decided on. Hard work I know but thast means there's always demand. I really only have one foreign language anyway. Linguistics really should count as relevant to English and I have a B in A-Level English too. I believe I qualify and would be happy to do SKE if needed.
> 
> Ex-boss is happy to provide reference and my old Uni teacher is still alive, working (I think she's 71 this year) and happy to help so that's the two needed. Just need to get over my fear of forms now.


With the forms, can you do them in chunks rather than all at once? Maybe doing them in pieces might be less scary?


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2020)

Did you decide to train in England in the end?


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Did you decide to train in England in the end?



Yes, definitely. Future options are for the future. Mrs maomao doesn't like the weather in Scotland (and I don't like it in her part of China) so that discussion will rumble on for a few years yet.


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## planetgeli (Jun 22, 2020)

Sorry to hear about the redundancy maomao. Blessing in disguise? Opportunity out of crisis?


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## spanglechick (Jun 22, 2020)

I have had a couple of periods of being an English teacher.   It has pros and cons.
Pro: 
no one- be they kid or parent or on the teaching / school leadership side is ever going to be able to claim your subject isn’t important.  You’ll never be in a staff meeting and discover that there won’t be a gcse in your subject next year.  
there are loads of jobs, because it’s a compulsory gcse, and popular for a-level. 
 you get to teach Shakespeare and fantastic poems etc
You’ll only have on class per year group, and you’ll see them a lot.  Fewer names to remember, relationships to establish, books to haul around

Con:
There is no “flick and tick” marking.  You will quickly grow to hate maths teachers for this.  marking takes longer than any other subject.  Yes in languages you also have to correct spellings and grammar, but they don’t write anywhere near as much.  

Because the subject is so important, your results (and therefore you) will be under a fucktonne of scrutiny. English and maths results carry more weighting in the league tables. Prepare to be pressurised.

You will end up teaching some totally inappropriate stuff. Last time I covered English they were trying to do all eight million dry verses of The Highwayman with bottom set year seven as part of a poorly put-together scheme on 19th century gothic literature. You can be MichellePfieffer in Dangerous Minds all you like, but you won’t be given freedom to ignore the curriculum that some ivory tower twat has imposed on you.

Languages, I’m in less position to judge. I know recruitment to exam classes/enthusiasm for learning can be hard. But if it’s what you love most, then you should definitely do it.

 I’d say, you could probably get an EAL job if your PGCE is in MFL, but I’m not sure about the other way around.  Also, brexit is going to mean a big reduction in need for EAL staff.  Most of our EAL kids are Portuguese, or occasionally French, Dutch etc.  Kids from Commonwealth countries tend to already speak English.


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> I have had a couple of periods of being an English teacher.   It has pros and cons.
> Pro:
> no one- be they kid or parent or on the teaching / school leadership side is ever going to be able to claim your subject isn’t important.  You’ll never be in a staff meeting and discover that there won’t be a gcse in your subject next year.
> there are loads of jobs, because it’s a compulsory gcse, and popular for a-level.
> ...


Thank you. That's just basically confirmed the little pros and cons list I had made for myself as well as adding a couple of things (marking and Brexit I'd already thought of). I'm definitely keener on English than ML. The bursary is less than half the ML one for a start so it must be some sort of enthusiasm. I'd rather be reading and teaching English books than endlessly trying to keep my Mandarin up to scratch to teach a very basic level of it year after year. And job security/availability is really the number one consideration.


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## Cid (Jun 22, 2020)

maomao said:


> Yes, definitely. Future options are for the future. Mrs maomao doesn't like the weather in Scotland (and I don't like it in her part of China) so that discussion will rumble on for a few years yet.



PGCE would also serve you extremely well if you did go to China anyway, by far the best opportunities for those who have full teaching qualifications from UK/US. Head of department at international schools and the like. Though obviously that is dependent on area, and whether you want to teach the wealthiest kids.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 22, 2020)

Are you set on secondary?

Primary's much better


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> Are you set on secondary?
> 
> Primary's much better.


No bursaries (apart from maths). I have an also recently redundant partner and two kids. The bursary (plus the redundancy money) is the only thing that makes it possible.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 22, 2020)

maomao said:


> No bursaries (apart from maths). I have an also recently redundant partner and two kids. The bursary (plus the redundancy money) is the only thing that makes it possible.


Ah OK; sorry missed some info.


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> Ah OK; sorry missed some info.


tbf I only realised yesterday and hadn't mentioned on thread. It's not obvious on the list of available bursaries if you don't realise that 'primary' is a subject in itself so 'maths' means secondary maths and the only primary subject listed is 'primary with maths'.


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

Cid said:


> PGCE would also serve you extremely well if you did go to China anyway, by far the best opportunities for those who have full teaching qualifications from UK/US. Head of department at international schools and the like. Though obviously that is dependent on area, and whether you want to teach the wealthiest kids.


This is definitely true. And while it's not a deciding reason I think someone somewhere would get confused over the idea of a white English Mandarin teacher anyway and assume that I was either really Chinese or just mad.


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2020)

It all sounds very exciting maomao . When I went back and did my PhD the scholarship was the only thing that made it possible, along with a part time job in the uni library. That was the best job ever and I still miss it sometimes.

At least if you're furloughed there's still money coming in for now. Check your organisation's redundancy policy if there is one, to check if they offer any enhanced payout, on top of the statutory entitlement.


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## maomao (Jun 22, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> It all sounds very exciting maomao . When I went back and did my PhD the scholarship was the only thing that made it possible, along with a part time job in the uni library. That was the best job ever and I still miss it sometimes.
> 
> At least if you're furloughed there's still money coming in for now. Check your organisation's redundancy policy if there is one, to check if they offer any enhanced payout, on top of the statutory entitlement.


I'm getting an extra month's furlough money (so it will cost them NI and pension I think) in exchange for going quietly and signing a compromise agreement. So technically I'll be employed for two more months. I know that affects benefits but we shouldn't really have to go there. I had an overpayment pool on the mortgage and we've got a couple of months cushion.


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## scifisam (Jun 22, 2020)

The other downside with teaching a compulsory subject is that you end up teaching a lot of KS4 kids who don't really want to be there. At least with optional subjects you get a little more enthusiasm. 

And yeah, you do end up massively jealous of the maths teachers. 

But the job security is a massive difference. And once you have QTS you can sometimes switch to primary anyway - I know a couple of people who did that, and a few who switched to FE. Plus you might be able to get a job teaching English but have some of your teaching hours be teaching Mandarin, if the school offers it as a subject. I've taught subjects I'm not technically qualified for.

BTW, although it looks like it's too late to apply for this year, it's worth looking into something like Teach First.. It's on the job training, but some Teach First students were in uni classes with us regular PGCErs and, bizarrely, they seemed to have fewer contact hours than those of us on the regular PGCE.


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## maomao (Jun 24, 2020)

So I have been cracking on with this. I have a shortlist of institutions to apply to, am reading prospectuses and have started an application through UCAS. It's an online application so can save and go back to it. Not as intimidating as those old paper forms.

I have been bothering old friends and emailing old schools to try and get the exam boards I did GCSEs and A-levels with but it seems all the big boards have suspended these services for the length of the pandemic as well as now saying they won't look for any info from before 2000! The drop  down lists for qualifications on the UCAS form don't actually list the exams I took. We did separate GCSEs for English Literature and Language and they're not listed as separate subjects at all. It's starting to look like some sort of equivalency exam would be easier. 

Both references have asked me to write something which they'll then agree to so I need to do that as well. Not sure how to write a reference about myself. Have sketched out a plan for my personal statement though. Plan is to have the form more or less ready by the middle of next week. Phone institutions for chats about details and then submit straight away. I've been assured that applications are open till September but it feels very late.

I think I'm doing okay given it's less than three days since I was made redundant.


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## spanglechick (Jun 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> So I have been cracking on with this. I have a shortlist of institutions to apply to, am reading prospectuses and have started an application through UCAS. It's an online application so can save and go back to it. Not as intimidating as those old paper forms.
> 
> I have been bothering old friends and emailing old schools to try and get the exam boards I did GCSEs and A-levels with but it seems all the big boards have suspended these services for the length of the pandemic as well as now saying they won't look for any info from before 2000! The drop  down lists for qualifications on the UCAS form don't actually list the exams I took. We did separate GCSEs for English Literature and Language and they're not listed as separate subjects at all. It's starting to look like some sort of equivalency exam would be easier.
> 
> ...


Can you screenshot the drop down?
Kids still do these as separate exams so it can’t be that.  Also, not exactly the same but I’ve been involved in hundreds of ucas applications over the last few years, so I’m used to v. similar forms.


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## maomao (Jun 24, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Can you screenshot the drop down?
> Kids still do these as separate exams so it can’t be that.  Also, not exactly the same but I’ve been involved in hundreds of ucas applications over the last few years, so I’m used to v. similar forms.


I may just be getting form flustered again.

This is the education section:


There are the correct names for the exams I took in the second section 'add gcse qualifications or equivalents' but not in the top section where it wants my english/maths/science gcses. If I click on that and select GCSEs (A* > G) I get this:



with English greyed out. Confusingly if I choose GCSE grade 1-9 it gives me Eng Lang and Lit options but then I can't put my alphabetical grades. 

I think I should probably just put therm all in the GCSEs section and then point it out when I show the completed form to the teacher training people.

Forms really do drive me mental.


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## scifisam (Jun 24, 2020)

If the exam boards can't/won't help then I don't think you need to worry about the college - the equivalency tests are easy, anyway.

I second what Spangles said about the GCSEs though. They are still separate subjects. And TBH that's probably helpful for you to know before applying to teach them...


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## Looby (Jun 24, 2020)

Definitely worth a call to admissions of each uni to check what they’ll take. I only found one near me that would take English functional skills for social work.


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## maomao (Jun 24, 2020)

scifisam said:


> And TBH that's probably helpful for you to know before applying to teach them...


 I know. Because I believe my degree qualifies me for the lang but not so much for the lit and I'll need to point that out/explain how I intend to address that.

I remember at the time not having a clue though. I only had one English teacher.


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## scifisam (Jun 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> I know. Because I believe my degree qualifies me for the lang but not so much for the lit and I'll need to point that out/explain how I intend to address that.
> 
> I remember at the time not having a clue though. I only had one English teacher.



Yeah, usually you're taught them together and take both exams, so they feel like one GCSE, but occasionally there will be a class that only takes English language. That's the one that counts for job applications, etc, and is the legal requirement for a PGCE. You're too old to be required to have a science GCSE, BTW - they don't apply that rule to people who went to school when it wasn't a compulsory GCSE subject - so that's one equivalency test you don't need to worry about.

I hate forms too. Actually it was one of the things I hated most about secondary school teaching, because there were tons of them. Can't work out what's going on with that drop-down form.


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## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2020)

There's probably some unwritten assumption built into the form, based on what's happened for the past 20 years. I'm pretty much the same age as maomao and did both English language and English litersy GCSEs although was taught for both by one teacher. I loathed the subject mainly because the books chosen were mostly just not what I'd read by myself. I was horrified to find out that A Town Called Alice by Nevil Shute was actually much longer and a much better story than the crappy abridged version we read in class.


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## spanglechick (Jun 24, 2020)

Right.  You’ve got 3 separate lines in section one.  You’ve done the maths one.  Is that right?

if there’s no choice for the English one, it probably means that it’s assumed to be English language. (iirc, the qualifications are called English and English literature. “English language” didn’t used to be the name of a qualification at all, but I may be wrong).
The other possibility is that they will accept a passing grade in either lit or lang, and you can add the other one underneath in section 2.  

presumably, that’s what happens in the science section - you only need one science to be a grade c / level 4 or above, and some kids still do separate sciences.

the other thing is, for now I’d probably put down London as the exam board (which is now edexcel, I think). If it comes up later on and is wrong, you will be able to deal with that then.

My school didn’t give out certificates by the way. Not sure what I would do if I had to prove it now. Fortunately I didmy pgce in 1995.


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## planetgeli (Jun 24, 2020)

Small point spanglechick but yes there was English language O level. I've got one (and just checked my results to be sure). Taken in 1980.


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## spanglechick (Jun 24, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Small point spanglechick but yes there was English language O level. I've got one (and just checked my results to be sure). Taken in 1980.


Oh.  Dunno where I got that idea from.  I look at dozen of gcse transcripts every enrolment day too.


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## scifisam (Jun 24, 2020)

spanglechick said:


> Oh.  Dunno where I got that idea from.  I look at dozen of gcse transcripts every enrolment day too.



The AQA website has English Language listed as a GCSE, as well as English Literature. Maybe they don't write that on all the forms though.


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## maomao (Jun 24, 2020)

The most annoying thing is that this is the fourth UCAS application I've made in my life (though it might have still been UCCA/PCAS the first time) and if anyone knows my bloody qualifications it's them.

I'll just do it the way that makes sense to you spanglechick as you deal with these forms and try and worry about the other stuff instead. I want the form shipshape before I call colleges next week.

I do have a confirmed exam board for my Sociology A-level now at least. The only person I know who actually kept her certificates and found them within two minutes of me asking her on Facebook. Pity she didn't do English.


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## Mation (Jun 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Worth knowing that to get your bursary you'll need to provide original copies of your qualification certificates, including GCSEs and A levels.


I didn't need to. I just showed my degree certificates.

I'm just finishing my pgce now, maomao Started when I was a little older than you.

Do it! It's hard work, but worth it.


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## scifisam (Jun 29, 2020)

Mation said:


> I didn't need to. I just showed my degree certificates.
> 
> I'm just finishing my pgce now, maomao Started when I was a little older than you.
> 
> Do it! It's hard work, but worth it.



Is yours secondary or FE? The rules are different for FE PGCEs.


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## Mation (Jun 29, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Is yours secondary or FE? The rules are different for FE PGCEs.


Neither. 'Lifelong learning', so that could be why.


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## maomao (Jun 29, 2020)

Mation said:


> I didn't need to. I just showed my degree certificates.
> 
> I'm just finishing my pgce now, maomao Started when I was a little older than you.
> 
> Do it! It's hard work, but worth it.



Thanks for the kick up the arse. Had a bit of a weekend off (from the application anyway, no weekends off from kids) as the fact of redundancy is starting to sink in. 

I spent far too much time last week stressing about certificates and not enough reading syllabuses and prospectus. The bursary doesn't depend on them anyway as long as I'm upfront about it. I asked UCAS to check and see if they had old applications of mine and they said no but just fill in the boards as unknown.

Need this application in by next Monday latest. I now know at least one college on my shortlist near me is now closed to applications for secondary English. I'm coming to the conclusion that this may take two years as I might not get on a course till 2021, no-one does January starts. If this happens I will start looking for TA (and other) work locally (though this may be slowed down by dbs problems due to coronavirus) and try and do an SKE concurrently so I can get a place sorted early for next year. This would be the better route really but it's goin to be a lot harder financially.


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## Mation (Jun 29, 2020)

maomao said:


> Thanks for the kick up the arse. Had a bit of a weekend off (from the application anyway, no weekends off from kids) as the fact of redundancy is starting to sink in.
> 
> I spent far too much time last week stressing about certificates and not enough reading syllabuses and prospectus. The bursary doesn't depend on them anyway as long as I'm upfront about it. I asked UCAS to check and see if they had old applications of mine and they said no but just fill in the boards as unknown.
> 
> Need this application in by next Monday latest. I now know at least one college on my shortlist near me is now closed to applications for secondary English. I'm coming to the conclusion that this may take two years as I might not get on a course till 2021, no-one does January starts. If this happens I will start looking for TA (and other) work locally (though this may be slowed down by dbs problems due to coronavirus) and try and do an SKE concurrently so I can get a place sorted early for next year. This would be the better route really but it's goin to be a lot harder financially.


Yeah, just get the application in, so you don't cut off the option.

Might the coronavirus affect when/how intake happens (in your favour)?


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## maomao (Jun 29, 2020)

Mation said:


> Might the corinavirus affect when/how intake happens (in your favour)?


I'm basically counting on this to have any chance at all. Though it may be there's a lot of redundant people suddenly remembering their long-supressed vocations right now.


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## Mation (Jun 29, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm basically counting on this to have any chance at all. Though it may be there's a lot of redundant people suddenly remembering their long-supressed vocations right now.


True. Fewer with your specialisms, though?


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## Cid (Jun 29, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm basically counting on this to have any chance at all. Though it may be there's a lot of redundant people suddenly remembering their long-supressed vocations right now.



Perhaps, but don't do yourself down (the chance bit)... You have a lot of valuable experience. Not least the fact that you've taught before, and actually enjoyed it. Get the application in... Seen too many people put something off a year and just end up not doing it.


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## maomao (Jun 29, 2020)

Cid said:


> Perhaps, but don't do yourself down (the chance bit)... You have a lot of valuable experience. Not least the fact that you've taught before, and actually enjoyed it. Get the application in... Seen too many people put something off a year and just end up not doing it.


Yes, it is definitely getting done this week. I have half a draft of my personal statement and my entire work and school history uploaded so far. The weekend break was partly to make a small office space in the back bedroom so I'm not constantly craning my neck to see past the kids playing lego on the floor.


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## maomao (Jun 29, 2020)

Both my referees have asked me to provide a draft of what I want them to say and I'd like to get that finished today. It is so fucking difficult. I can't exactly have my current boss go on about what a great teacher I'd make because it's not what he'd say. Also worried about length. I've written what I think is a wordy and over the top reference and it's only 40% of the character limit. Similarly my academic reference is a teacher who hasn't seen me in fifteen years. I know I did well and she was always nice to me then but she's not going to write a whole sheet of a4 about me. 

Anyone feel like helping me proof read (and could probably do with a look at my personal statement in a couple of days)? I would be very grateful.


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## Looby (Jun 29, 2020)

Think about what skills you have that are transferable to teaching. I managed to get shitloads from my civil service/TU roles for my social work course. Made myself sound brilliant. 😄


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## maomao (Jun 29, 2020)

Looby said:


> Think about what skills you have that are transferable to teaching. I managed to get shitloads from my civil service/TU roles for my social work course. Made myself sound brilliant. 😄


I'm really shit at talking myself up. Sitting here trying to write positive things about myself and just thinking it's all bollocks  Personal statement will probably be easier to be positive it's just writing words for someone else. 

Mrs maomao is taking over sole child care (9-5  anyway) for the meanwhile and is even cooking every day till I get this done. Which gives me extra incentive cause I prefer my own cooking lol.


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## Cid (Jun 29, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm really shit at talking myself up. Sitting here trying to write positive things about myself and just thinking it's all bollocks  Personal statement will probably be easier to be positive it's just writing words for someone else.
> 
> Mrs maomao is taking over sole child care (9-5  anyway) for the meanwhile and is even cooking every day till I get this done. Which gives me extra incentive cause I prefer my own cooking lol.



Just go through this list point by point 

But I kind of do actually suggest doing that. Break it down... Don't just think of it as talking yourself up. Actually think about what you have learned, or what opportunities for learning your job could have provided and that you could er... embellish. Maybe think of a colleague you've liked and use them as a surrogate. I mean imagine your were writing a reference for them, not yourself. It doesn't hugely matter what your boss actually thinks, unless they're likely to read it and say 'nope, can't say that'.

And, I mean, this is your boss. Does the person reviewing this application need to read 47 lines of text by someone with precisely zero ability to assess your ability to teach? Do they expect your boss to even be able to do that? I don't know exactly what you worked in, but isn't it something to do with dispatching couriers? The relevant parts of that are going to be ability to communicate, ability to coordinate, problem solving, adapting to particular situations. Anything client-facing, anything to do with training. Break it down into those sections and use a structured approach along the PEE (point, evidence, explanation) lines you use for essays. Structure it into paragraphs, each addressing a particular, relevant skillset. 

I'd be wary of being overly wordy. Also I have no idea how these are assessed. But I'm just struggling to imagine someone looking at the personal statement of someone who speaks fluent Chinese, bits of other languages, has taught before and spent plenty of time overseas being rejected because their last boss didn't manage to fully articulate their admiration.

e2a: you could probably pad out with a few technical things too; timekeeping, ability to make deadlines, anything to do with safe working practices.


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## equationgirl (Jun 29, 2020)

If you have any examples of resolving difficult situations I think they would be helpful to include, because at some point in your teaching career you will have to do that.


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## maomao (Jun 29, 2020)

Cid said:


> Just go through this list point by point
> 
> But I kind of do actually suggest doing that. Break it down... Don't just think of it as talking yourself up. Actually think about what you have learned, or what opportunities for learning your job could have provided and that you could er... embellish. Maybe think of a colleague you've liked and use them as a surrogate. I mean imagine your were writing a reference for them, not yourself. It doesn't hugely matter what your boss actually thinks, unless they're likely to read it and say 'nope, can't say that'.
> 
> ...


It's that website that's been driving me to despair. There are whole sections that neither reference could be expected to comment on. My boss barely knew I had a degree let alone what it was in. I've thrown in quite a bit about trustworthiness and responsibility. Specific skill sets are going to be more for the personal statement.


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## strung out (Jun 29, 2020)

I just wanted to chime in with some support, as I'm also considering applying for a PGCE. I'm thoroughly fed up of my job/career, and have always wondered whether I might like to go into teaching (my mum was a secondary English teacher, SENCo and eventually SEN manager for Bristol, and always said I'd be a great teacher, though advised me against it for the sake of my own mental health )

I have an MSc in Library and Information Management, and wondered whether anyone had any advice in whether that might be suitable for specialising in Computer Science at secondary level? Things have completely changed since I studied computing in the 90s, so I've no idea what it might entail. My undergraduate degree is in 'Humanities' with the OU, which is essentially English Lit, and I'm not so keen on teaching that...

My wife is Malaysian, so a PGCE could be useful if we decide to move out there in a few years time too.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 30, 2020)

Anyone is welcome to PM me to ask me to look over stuff, because (a) I genuinely love proofreading and (b) Mrs SI knows this stuff inside out, having run a PGCE course 2018-19.


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## maomao (Jul 1, 2020)

Application form completed with massive thanks to the untaggable poster above. There's a 4,000 character limit on the personal statement but only about enough room in the box for 3,500 characters which meant it was an exercise in brevity more than anything else. I think I put my case across well. Referees have both responded, are happy with the drafts I've provided, and have promised to respond promptly to the UCAS email when they get it. My boss has said he will just cut and paste what I've given him which is perfect.

The only institution I've actually spoken to so far have stopped recruitment for secondary English  but there are several more. I'll spend the rest of today going through prospectuses, then tomorrow on the phone before hopefully submitting the application tomorrow afternoon (or possibly another quick revision to PS if anything stands out from conversations with institutions). Quite pleased with my ability to get my shit together when I needed to.


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## Sue (Jul 1, 2020)

Good stuff, maomao and good luck with it all. Keep us posted on how it goes.


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## scifisam (Jul 1, 2020)

If you don't get onto a course this year, going through this process will mean that you already have all your stuff together when it comes to applying for TA jobs. I know that wouldn't be the best for your financially but it would make you a better, and happpier, teacher in the long run.


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## maomao (Jul 1, 2020)

scifisam said:


> If you don't get onto a course this year, going through this process will mean that you already have all your stuff together when it comes to applying for TA jobs. I know that wouldn't be the best for your financially but it would make you a better, and happier, teacher in the long run.


Yes. With no financial pressure 1 year TA + SKE first would be much better. I got very stressed at the end of last week when mrs maomao was treating it as a fait accompli and bouncing up to me daily with another benefit to being a teacher that she'd found (3 grand for an adult unemployed dependant, who knew?). I will be looking at applying for TA jobs while I wait for a response anyway. I can easily edit the application down into an education focused CV.  DBS checks are taking longer than normal and I would need to get in now for a September start presumably. Eggs and baskets innit.


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## maomao (Jul 2, 2020)

I actually started making phone calls yesterday and have been doing so solidly today and was completely demoralised. Four of the courses on my shortlist are closed for applications despite showing vacancies on the government teacher training site (I've written an email of complaint already, I like to moan) and the remaining three have been basically impossible to contact.

Finally, 2 minutes ago, the UEL course leader wrote back saying he'd be very happy to receive my application and that only a small proportion of applicants actually have a single honours English degree anyway. Also offered a couple of routes through the no certificate situation. It was my first choice anyway.

Which leaves me waiting for one reply from the John Cass school. I'd be happier if they changed their bloody name though. I'll have to dredge up another school from somewhere to make up the three. Travel's going to be a real problem if it's not East London/Essex borders though.


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## Cid (Jul 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> I actually started making phone calls yesterday and have been doing so solidly today and was completely demoralised. Four of the courses on my shortlist are closed for applications despite showing vacancies on the government teacher training site (I've written an email of complaint already, I like to moan) and the remaining three have been basically impossible to contact.
> 
> Finally, 2 minutes ago, the UEL course leader wrote back saying he'd be very happy to receive my application and that only a small proportion of applicants actually have a single honours English degree anyway. Also offered a couple of routes through the no certificate situation. It was my first choice anyway.
> 
> Which leaves me waiting for one reply from the John Cass school. I'd be happier if they changed their bloody name though. I'll have to dredge up another school from somewhere to make up the three. Travel's going to be a real problem if it's not East London/Essex borders though.



Well sounds potentially hopeful on the UEL front at least. Just keep going, annoying shit always happens with stuff like this. Bloody minded persistence will get you there.


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## maomao (Jul 6, 2020)

My second (academic) reference took 3 days to respond (and finally did at 9pm on Sunday) so had a bit of a squeaky bum weekend (I'm terrible at waiting) but all submitted now. Every admissions person I spoke to was fine about my qualifications and lost certificates but at the end my three choices were limited to the three places with places left that I could conceivably travel to. Goldsmiths would actually be a bit of a stretch but we'll see. It's not much further than my last place of work so would depend where their placements were. The Get Into Teaching people finally assigned me an adviser who managed to wake me up from my Friday afternoon nap so I'm sure I made a terrible impression there but he is supposed to be sending me some stuff about interviews. So I'm going to crack on with preparing for interviews and taking my daughter's English classes back over from her mum.


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## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2020)

Sounds promising maomao


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## purves grundy (Jul 6, 2020)

maomao said:


> Travel's going to be a real problem if it's not East London/Essex borders though.


The bugbear of all PGCE students. Travelling around Leicestershire to my practice schools with only a pushbike to my name and public transport fragmented nearly finished me off.

Best of luck with the application 👍


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 6, 2020)

maomao said:


> Application form completed with massive thanks to the untaggable poster above. There's a 4,000 character limit on the personal statement but only about enough room in the box for 3,500 characters which meant it was an exercise in brevity more than anything else.



Yeah this fucked me up too. I wrote a fabulous 3,998 word statement then found out it had the right number of words but too many lines so I had to butcher it.

It worked though, so fuck it. If there's a course with space on it at this time of the year they'll probably snap you up as long as you're not obviously a weirdo.


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## maomao (Jul 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> as long as you're not obviously a weirdo.


This is the biggest hurdle tbh.


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## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2020)

maomao said:


> This is the biggest hurdle tbh.


Well so long as you're not a massive weirdo you'll probably be fine.


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## chilango (Jul 6, 2020)

Actually thinking about it, for me it wasn't the location of the Uni (Bangor) but the location of the placements that had the real.impact traveling wise. We were barely at Uni (couple of weeks at the beginning, then the odd spell where I just stayed in a BnB. Obviously in London it'll be different to North Wales, it's your placement schools you'll be traveling back and forth to regularly not the Uni.


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## scifisam (Jul 7, 2020)

chilango said:


> Actually thinking about it, for me it wasn't the location of the Uni (Bangor) but the location of the placements that had the real.impact traveling wise. We were barely at Uni (couple of weeks at the beginning, then the odd spell where I just stayed in a BnB. Obviously in London it'll be different to North Wales, it's your placement schools you'll be traveling back and forth to regularly not the Uni.



Yeah, the uni isn't really an issue. One of my friends on our PGCE at UEL had a placement in Southend! She eventually had to get money from the hardship fund for her train fares. One of my placements was so far that to get there for their start time I'd have had to get childcare from 5:30am, which doesn't exist, but I was able to negotiate missing the hour-long meeting they had every morning and only start at actual form time except Mondays. (Both of us got our second placements practically on our doorsteps to make up for it).

Each placement is only for a few months, so it's sort of bearable. It's definitely worth bearing in mind that you might need to travel some distance, though.


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## maomao (Jul 9, 2020)

Well I've had one rejection from the place I just added to fill the gap and not a peep out of the other two. Meanwhile have applied for two TA jobs. One at my daughter's (primary) school which would be nice. I've stated my intention to train as a teacher in both applications.

It is a bloody pain in the arse repeatedly filling in bespoke application forms when you're 46 and have had a million different jobs. Normally I skip a few but I get the impression that schools really want every month of my lfe accounted for.


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## nagapie (Jul 10, 2020)

What schools love is someone with a huge skills set that can be used in a number of ways and ten times over. At my school a Ta can be found coaching the choir, editing the weekly news letter, supporting the IT technician, etc. Blood out of a stone and all that.


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## maomao (Jul 10, 2020)

I have a Zoom interview with UEL next Friday. Need to prepare a year 7 lesson to discuss.

I would have preferred a face to face interview but I guess that was never going to happen. Easier to get away with being a massive weirdo though I suppose.


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## nagapie (Jul 10, 2020)

What subject, topic, ability, how long? I can maybe help, year 7 are my main people.


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## maomao (Jul 10, 2020)

nagapie said:


> What subject, topic, ability, how long? I can maybe help, year 7 are my main people.


None specified though I should assume English. It's a plan to discuss they want rather than an example class. I've been going through KS3 English syllabus (and reading list, I'm rereading Eagle of the Ninth lol) so it shouldn't be tooo hard but may I PM you at some point to have a quick look at a plan or if I get stuck?


----------



## nagapie (Jul 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> None specified though I should assume English. It's a plan to discuss they want rather than an example class. I've been going through KS3 English syllabus (and reading list, I'm rereading Eagle of the Ninth lol) so it shouldn't be tooo hard but may I PM you at some point to have a quick look at a plan or if I get stuck?


Sure. Although I teach all Sen classes now, I started off as an English teacher and keep close contact with our English department.


----------



## Mation (Jul 11, 2020)

Is this any use, maomao? All sorts of teaching related jobs coming up in Tower Hamlets.









						Redundant? Looking for work? Vacancies posted here!
					

‘Two hands are a lot’ — we’re hiring data scientists, project managers, policy experts, assorted weirdos…




					www.urban75.net


----------



## maomao (Jul 11, 2020)

Mation said:


> Is this any use, maomao? All sorts of teaching related jobs coming up in Tower Hamlets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw your post on the other thread already. Thanks. I will leave contacting them till after my interview on 17th though cause I need to get myself together for that.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 11, 2020)

But it says "assorted weirdos" maomao. The job is practically yours already.

Good luck for next Friday.


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## scifisam (Jul 11, 2020)

maomao said:


> None specified though I should assume English. It's a plan to discuss they want rather than an example class. I've been going through KS3 English syllabus (and reading list, I'm rereading Eagle of the Ninth lol) so it shouldn't be tooo hard but may I PM you at some point to have a quick look at a plan or if I get stuck?



I could give a second opinion too.  I've been out of secondary English teaching since 2012 or so, but one thing I used to be good at was lesson plans. (And I went to UEL for my PGCE).


----------



## maomao (Jul 12, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I could give a second opinion too.  I've been out of secondary English teaching since 2012 or so, but one thing I used to be good at was lesson plans. (And I went to UEL for my PGCE).


Thanks. I may PM you for your advice during the week.


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## equationgirl (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm excited for you maomao I think this is a brilliant opportunity and you've grasped it with both hands


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## maomao (Jul 13, 2020)

Have been shortlisted and invited for an interview for one of the TA jobs Thursday morning. 

It's a really _interesting_ job (eal) but the pay is awful (14k, which for 27 hours term time only isn't that bad but I would only take the job if I couldn't make more elsewhere, I have hungry kids). Should I do it just to practise interviews? I sold myself pretty strongly on the job application. I've never asked for a job interview to be rescheduled in my life, it's terribly bad form isn't it?

Meanwhile struggling a bit with lesson plan. I could just nick and adjust a lesson from TES site about history of English as would be playing to my skills/Linguistics degree. But I was looking at the reading list for Oak Academy's year 7 English lessons and 'If We Must Die' is on there which would be something to be enthusiastic about and I reckon I could knock together a meaningful lesson around it (the lesson doesn't have to be perfect I suppose, seems to be for a discussion point more than anything else).


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## spanglechick (Jul 13, 2020)

I think they’re looking for evidence that you’ve thought about the stages of the lesson and building up through the different ways kids learn.  Not that you need to know the theory of that, but just an awareness that they need more support at first to be doing the thing independently by the end of the lesson.


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## nagapie (Jul 13, 2020)

Why would you produce a lesson/lesson plan for a TA job?


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## nagapie (Jul 13, 2020)

Also they all pay TAs super shit.


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## maomao (Jul 13, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Why would you produce a lesson/lesson plan for a TA job?


The lesson's for the UEL job.


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## maomao (Jul 13, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Also they all pay TAs super shit.


Yes but 14k is low even for a TA (In London) from the job adverts I've been seeing.


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## nagapie (Jul 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> The lesson's for the UEL job.


Uel?


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## maomao (Jul 13, 2020)

nagapie said:


> Uel?


Sorry, interview not job. University of East London.

Had a minor panic but I'll be alright. 

I have a Zoom meeting with the Get Into Teaching adviser tomorrow. Should feel a bit more confident after that. 

Have agreed to the TA interview on Thursday. Good practise if nothing else.


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## maomao (Jul 14, 2020)

Mock interview with the Get into Teaching people went very well indeed. And I've abandoned over the top enthusiastic lesson plans for a simple one on prepositional phrases with a series of exercises allowing for differentiation and development.


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## nagapie (Jul 14, 2020)

The golden rule for great lesson plans is pare it back.
So that sounds like a good idea.


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## Thora (Jul 14, 2020)

maomao said:


> Yes but 14k is low even for a TA (In London) from the job adverts I've been seeing.


Check you’re not comparing actual with pro rata though - sometimes you see a job advertised at a really good pay but it’s actually listing the full time equivalent rather than 25 hours term time.


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## maomao (Jul 14, 2020)

Thora said:


> Check you’re not comparing actual with pro rata though - sometimes you see a job advertised at a really good pay but it’s actually listing the full time equivalent rather than 25 hours term time.


I was halfway through the application before I noticed that. It's 'Scale LBR3 Point 5-6, pro rata of £21,591 to £21,981 fte per annum (£14,063 to £14,317)'. I was really excited about a 21k TA job at first! It only gives the original salary in the headline.


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## maomao (Jul 15, 2020)

I think I've fucked up. I was cautioned for shoplifting aged thirteen or fourteen (I think 13 but god knows, it's over thirty years ago) When I did the UCAS application everything I read seemed to advise that this would be filtered and I should not declare it. So I didn't.

Now I have read advice to the effect that I really should have disclosed this as it is an enhanced check. I've read and reread the giv dbs site and I just find it confusing. I've submitted all my forms. Should I ask the admissions officer for advice tomorrow? I'm having a massive panic about it.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think I've fucked up. I was cautioned for shoplifting aged thirteen or fourteen (I think 13 but god knows, it's over thirty years ago) When I did the UCAS application everything I read seemed to advise that this would be filtered and I should not declare it. So I didn't.
> 
> Now I have read advice to the effect that I really should have disclosed this as it is an enhanced check. I've read and reread the giv dbs site and I just find it confusing. I've submitted all my forms. Should I ask the admissions officer for advice tomorrow? I'm having a massive panic about it.



I was also cautioned for shoplifting at age 12 and I'm fairly sure I didn't declare it on my DBS check when I did my PGCE (or the CRB check I did before that). Or if I did it didn't cause any problems.

Here's a good link: 

This bit is talking specifically about enhanced DBS checks:

*When does a caution appear on a DBS certificate?*
Some types of caution are included on the list of offences that will never be filtered – these will always appear on your DBS certificate.

All other cautions will appear on your DBS unless they meet the following conditions, in which case they will be filtered and will not appear on your DBS certificate:


Cautions received when you were aged under 18, and two years have passed since the date of the caution.
Cautions received when you were aged 18 or older, and six years have passed since the date of the caution.

I haven't checked the lost of cautions that will never be filtered, but I think it's safe to assume shoplifting isn't one of them. There's a link there for you to check anyway.

With enhanced DBS checks, the police can include anything they consider relevant, like, say, multiple accusations of domestic violence. They hardly ever do this - apparently 0.1% of enhanced DBS checks include extra info - and it's so unlikely that they'd include a juvenile caution for shoplifting that I think it's basically never going to happen.

DBS checks are also advisory to a certain extent - for example, drugs workers need enhanced DBS checks, and a lot of drugs workers have past convictions for drug use. They are still allowed to be employed, it's just that they might well be asked about it. In the vanishingly unlikely event that your caution did show up, you'd still be allowed to be employed and it'd be a really, really picky school that gave a shit about an offence huge numbers of other teachers also committed as teenagers, even if they weren't caught. 

Don't worry, honestly.


----------



## maomao (Jul 15, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I was also cautioned for shoplifting at age 12 and I'm fairly sure I didn't declare it on my DBS check when I did my PGCE (or the CRB check I did before that). Or if I did it didn't cause any problems.
> 
> Here's a good link:
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'm catastrophising because I've had a very stressful month. I'll take a nytol and go to bloody bed. And kudos on being one year younger than me when you got nicked. Thanks.


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## maomao (Jul 17, 2020)

Interview with UEL over now. I think the interview section went very well. Even though my interviewer clearly had soup in his beard, it was easier to pretend not to be looking at it in a Zoom situation. He was very forgiving of my lesson plan, it was a talking point rather than anything else. He seemed to agree with most of my answers to his questions and did a lot of nodding and saying 'yes, that's right'. The written assignment was hell though. I'd been practising grammar and punctuation because I had been told that's what the assessment would probably be. Instead I had to write 600+ words on a Victorian poem (afterwards by Thomas Hardy) which is probably my weakest point in the whole subject area. I didn't do _terribly_ (and I didn't cheat) but it just puts a little dent in what was otherwise quite a confident and positive interview. I will find out early next week. He said if I hadn't heard by Wednesday to phone admissions.

I need a drink. I don't even drink but I need a drink.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 17, 2020)

You've done well - and you've done all you can. Try not to think too much about it. Well done mate.


----------



## Nikkormat (Jul 17, 2020)

Good luck maomao.  I did the PGDE (to teach FE) ten years ago, and have ended up in a job I really love. I highly recommend this book: Rosenshine's Principles in Action by Tom Sherrington. Cuts out a lot of the crap, and gives you what you need in the classroom.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 17, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think I've fucked up. I was cautioned for shoplifting aged thirteen or fourteen (I think 13 but god knows, it's over thirty years ago) When I did the UCAS application everything I read seemed to advise that this would be filtered and I should not declare it. So I didn't.
> 
> Now I have read advice to the effect that I really should have disclosed this as it is an enhanced check. I've read and reread the giv dbs site and I just find it confusing. I've submitted all my forms. Should I ask the admissions officer for advice tomorrow? I'm having a massive panic about it.



I'm pretty sure it would be filtered. Annoyingly, some offences are filtered 11 years after conviction. My last conviction was 10 and a half years ago  

I don't think I declared that offence on my UCAS application but once I'd been given an offer I got sent a load of background check forms from the university and after much poring over the confusing rules about these things I decided to declare it even though it has never shown up on an enhanced DBS. It doesn't seem to have bothered the university, they're just happy I've already got a valid DBS certificate.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 17, 2020)

Nikkormat said:


> Good luck maomao.  I did the PGDE (to teach FE) ten years ago, and have ended up in a job I really love. I highly recommend this book: Rosenshine's Principles in Action by Tom Sherrington. Cuts out a lot of the crap, and gives you what you need in the classroom.



I just read another book by Tom Sherrington (The Learning Rainforest) and it was very good. Lots of reference to proper research in there so it's not all just 'this is how I think you should do teaching'. He does however manage to refer to Katharine Birbalsingh and her self-described 'Tiger Teachers' without spitting on the floor so that's one point where we disagree.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2020)

Glad it went ok maomao. Typical academic, with soup in his beard. I once  had a lecturer who regularly turned up with egg in his beard and on his tie. Most off-putting.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jul 17, 2020)

Nice one maomao, interviews are stressful at the best of times. Sounds like you did a good job. 

You might not have to but I'd say (unless you really don't want the job) go for all the interviews you're offered.


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## maomao (Jul 17, 2020)

Sweet FA said:


> Nice one maomao, interviews are stressful at the best of times. Sounds like you did a good job.
> 
> You might not have to but I'd say (unless you really don't want the job) go for all the interviews you're offered.


I didn't do the TA interview on Thursday but I told them politely Wednesday morning. I was just too stressed and flapping over today. It's been a really hard month. Till four weeks ago I had been being told work would be normal again and was enjoying time off with my family despite the slightly unusual circumstances. I can't do everything at once no matter how much I'd like to and I ended up getting myself very worked up this week.

I've stopped worrying about the legal thing. I knew I wouldn't be kicked off the course for the caution itself but was worried I might for hiding it. In the end I paid five quid to a cheap Internet lawyer to tell me in writing I didn't need to declare it so in the highly unlikely event I was challenged over it (though he was very sure it would not show up) I could say I got legal advice that I didn't have to. It sounds pointless but it's shut down that source of anxiety.

I'm a little worried that I went too far in my criticism of Hardy but I genuinely didn't like the poem. And we discussed poetry as one of my possible weak points. I think I've probably got away with it.

Anyway, I'm effectively on holiday till I've heard one way or another so fuck it. I'm using part of my redundancy money to get a bike if I get in so I'll just get on with shopping for that.

Thanks again to all for all advice and support.


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## Sweet FA (Jul 17, 2020)

Mate you absolutely have to look after yourself, (I should have added 'and/or it's too much' in the parentheses). Fwiw I would have done the same thing re the caution. 

The rest of it sounds like you've got a handle on and is now done and dusted. 

Enjoy the bike; as I've recently discovered, they're excellent.


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## Cid (Jul 17, 2020)

maomao said:


> Thank you. I'm catastrophising because I've had a very stressful month.



Yes. Even if you don't get it this year, there will be more chances. And rest assured that there are many on here who greatly enjoy your presence on these boards, so it's not because you're _that_ weird. But fingers crossed none the less. 加油加油！


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2020)

At least you'll find out fairly quickly maomao so enjoy your break until then.


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## maomao (Jul 20, 2020)

No news yet, just need a moan. Had been very good for a day or so putting it to the back of my mind. About 3am Sunday morning I woke up for the loo and had an email telling me to log in to the UEL portal to arrange an interview. Logged in and there was no such option, obviously didn't get back to sleep after that.   Have just had a chat (that took over an hour) with Uel online support who say it was probably an automated email and doesn't mean anything. Also told me admissions can take up to 10 days to process and respond. I'm really not very good at waiting. 😠

Will still phone on Wednesday if no answer because that's what I was told.


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## maomao (Jul 23, 2020)

Well admissions have no update for me and have asked me to be patient which is what I expected really. Academics don't tend to know exactly how admissions departments work IME. He did kind of get my hopes up for an early answer though. 

I am telling myself that this is because a 'yes' is more work (enrollment, placement etc.) than a 'no' (quick fuck off) but I have no idea if this is true in reality. And I've been distracting myself with housework and gardening so at least the house will get even cleaner.


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## baldrick (Jul 23, 2020)

Good luck. My husband has an interview & presentation tomorrow morning. Hopefully you will get good news next week.


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## maomao (Jul 23, 2020)

Good luck to Mr baldrick  🤞

I have an offer from UEL. However I am once again a bit confused. 

UCAS says conditional offer. It says conditional on me providing my GCSE and degree certificates. Degree certificate is not a problem. GCSE situation was discussed in detail before submitting my application. It states clearly on my application that I don't have these certificates and the exam boards for all have been given as 'unknown'. All the exam boards have stopped any requests for certificates before 2000. They can't possibly stop me attending because of this at this point right?

I suppose I should phone admissions but I have a cottage pie to make for dinner and I'd  rather phone them tomorrow. I should accept the offer though right? It says the way to do this is by withdrawing other applications. I've withdrawn the other UEL related one and can't withdraw the other one as already unsuccesful.

I think it means I'm in though.


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## scifisam (Jul 23, 2020)

maomao said:


> Good luck to Mr baldrick  🤞
> 
> I have an offer from UEL. However I am once again a bit confused.
> 
> ...



Accept the offer, deal with the GCSE certs later, like lots of us have. Equivalency tests are not a big deal and the uni is used to them. You're in.

I'll probably know one of your teachers. 

Congratulations, future teacher maomao!


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## maomao (Jul 23, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Accept the offer, deal with the GCSE certs later, like lots of us have. Equivalency tests are not a big deal and the uni is used to them. You're in.
> 
> I'll probably know one of your teachers.
> 
> Congratulations, future teacher maomao!


Dont worry I accepted it! Will phone admissions in the morning. Thanks for all the support. 

Bit dazed tbh.


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## scifisam (Jul 23, 2020)

maomao said:


> Dont worry I accepted it! Will phone admissions in the morning. Thanks for all the support.
> 
> Bit dazed tbh.



Next, get going with applications for dependants allowances, council tax rebate, and possibly put stuff together to apply for a tax refund because you'll be too busy come April. 

Well, after celebrating, obvs.


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## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2020)

Brilliant news maomao it's changed your future quite quickly, so no wonder you're a bit shocked. Really well done though


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## maomao (Jul 23, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> your future quite quickly,


Five weeks tomorrow since I started this thread and I hadn't even been made redundant.


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## Red Cat (Jul 23, 2020)

Well done maomao, it's a huge thing to get it together to make an application like that in the first place, and then to get an offer too, that's brilliant.


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## Mation (Jul 23, 2020)

maomao said:


> Dont worry I accepted it! Will phone admissions in the morning. Thanks for all the support.
> 
> Bit dazed tbh.


Really glad to hear it, maomao! Well done 

And if this thread is anything to go by, it's virtually an eligibility criterion for teachers that we were cautioned for shoplifting aged 12-14


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

UEL admissions department have told me to do the A* equivalency test ASAP and that I would not be able to attend induction 31st August without them. My mum reckons her old mates (retired teachers) have useful advice but I don't think they do. My brother's friend is looking through old newspaper archives cause he thinks they were printed at the time. I think I should just crack on and do the equivalency.

Given that one of the boards it may be with is currently refusing to look for exams before 2000 surely this is age discrimination of some kind? Any point in pursuing that (it may not be that board though)? None of the boards seem to be able to guarantee turning them up before 31st August.


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## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2020)

I'm in a slightly similar no-certs-100s-years-ago situation for an NVQ and got English and Maths equivalency 'bundled in'. Managed to squeak through as (due to c19) they took practise papers, rather than me having to sit an exam over Teams 

Just found this though, from *16 July 2020:*

*



			GCSE and equivalency tests
		
Click to expand...

*


> *Q. Because of coronavirus, I have been unable to sit my GCSE or equivalency test as scheduled. Will this mean I cannot meet the entry criteria to start a course in September 2020?*
> 
> A. Providers are permitted to take account of other evidence of attainment. In the first instance, if you think you can provide evidence that you can demonstrate a standard equivalent to GCSE grade 4 in one or more of the required subjects (English, mathematics, and additionally a science subject for primary), you should check your eligibility with your chosen provider. Providers may offer opportunities for you to demonstrate the standard through, for example, equivalency tests.
> 
> If you cannot provide the required evidence as a consequence of the coronavirus outbreak, providers have temporary flexibility to allow you to start a course. You will need to submit this evidence by 30 November 2020 in order to continue on and complete the course. Candidates should check with their respective providers.



At the very least you've got until November to get something together? And a degree should demonstrate standard equivalent? 


Sorry if this has been done to death already! Congrats on getting this far 😎


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

5t3IIa said:


> At the very least you've got until November to get something together?


Which was what I thought before but the teenager on the UEL admissions line just told me no exam certificates by August 31st no induction. And he put me on hold to talk to an adult at one point.


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## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> Which was what I thought before but the teenager on the UEL admissions line just told me no exam certificates by August 31st no induction. And he put me on hold to talk to an adult at one point.


I hesitate to throw out advice as you clearly have this 99% in hand but my sense would be to quote .gov websites back at them


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## Cid (Jul 24, 2020)

It seems a somewhat absurd situation, especially given most prospective teachers hold a UK degree. But yeah, beyond maybe a few more calls, probably worth just focusing on the equivalencies. How hard are they?


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## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2020)

My equivalency were BBC Bitesize GCSE type stuff, but I did resent doing both, as I have English but couldn't prove it  Maths was a different story though....couldn't prove a negative  😶 I thought it was a Very Hard Work. And if I was maomao I'd think it was a lot of very pointless hard work.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

5t3IIa said:


> I hesitate to throw out advice as you clearly have this 99% in hand but my sense would be to quote .gov websites back at them


I've asked them if they will meet the cost of equivalency exams if I can prove age discrimination (OCR won't search for results before 2000). They are taking a VERY long time to answer.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

Cid said:


> It seems a somewhat absurd situation, especially given most prospective teachers hold a UK degree. But yeah, beyond maybe a few more calls, probably worth just focusing on the equivalencies. How hard are they?


English looks a piece of piss. Maths will take some practise and I'll need a calculator. My main objection is the 400 odd quid it's going to cost me and all the time.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 24, 2020)

I didn't need to provide evidence of my English O Levels as I have a degree in English Language and Literature, but I had to do my Maths GCSE as I hadn't seen my school certificate in thirty years


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 24, 2020)

Luckily have a resident Maths expert here so ended up passing then teaching Maths eventually, much preferring it to English.


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## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> English looks a piece of piss. Maths will take some practise and I'll need a calculator. My main objection is the 400 odd quid it's going to cost me and all the time.


I had to move fast to do my maths as there was a 'no calculator' rule coming in after (possibly) May 20! This was ncfe though, so poss. other providers differ.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

Well the help-lines have given up and given me an email address for teacher training admissions. I want to email the following but I'm a little frayed at the moment and would like to know if the language is too strong or if I'm dumping the course leader in it:

Dear sir/madam,

I was very happy yesterday to receive a conditional acceptance for your PGCE Secondary English course however I have a minor problem with the conditions.

Firstly I can provide my degree certificate at any time. There is no issue with this condition.

I emailed the course leader (Dr ______) before applying and explained that I do not have GCSE certificates for Maths and English. They were lost in a house flood in 2006. He suggested that this was something that could be worked out during the course itself so I stopped panicking and did not chase up, concentrating instead on preparing for the interview.

I have now been told on your admissions line that if I do not have GCSE certificates by August 31st I will not be allowed to join the course. Obviously this is very bad news for me as I have gone to great lengths to get accepted.

My old school (Edmonton County) does not know what exam board was used and does not keep records on students over 25. One of the exam boards it thinks is responsible is OCR. OCR are now no longer dealing with enquiries for exams taken before the year 2000. The other two, AQA and edexcel are saying that they cannot promise any time scale for tracking down certificates before 2000. As I took my GCSEs in 1990 this seems to me to be age discrimination. I am not able to recover my qualifications as easily as a younger student. I would like to know what steps the university can take to mitigate this discrimination.

The Get Into Teaching website suggests that the deadline for producing exam results has been moved back to November. And I have been working on this as my deadline since beginning my application.  This would give me enough time to contact the other two exam boards in order of likelihood and hopefully get proof of my original results. May I ask why this is not the case at UEL? Coronavirus has impacted both the timing of my application and the ability of the exam boards to provide proof of results.

I've been told I should take an equivalency exam through the A star site. Places are very limited before the deadline (unless I take them both next week with zero preparation). Is the online version of the exam acceptable? If it is the case that my exam results are with OCR would the university meet the costs of the exam in order to mitigate the age discrimination factor?

I apologise for my flood of questions and am looking forward to starting my course in September.

Kind regards


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 24, 2020)

You need to capitalise Sir/Madam and Edexcel for starters.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 24, 2020)

I don't think it's too strong; you need to know what's happening.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

Should probably add my UCAS ID and name as well.


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## hegley (Jul 24, 2020)

Take out "so I stopped panicking" and possibly change "chase up" to "follow up".


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## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2020)

I might start with what .gov says*, as that is the actual rules that they should all be following. That's your high level. Then work down through your research/mitigations, as work you have already done after getting incorrect (?) advice. Don't offer to do anything futher (take equivalencies etc) as .gov says you don't have to, as you can demonstrate competence. Big rewrite 

edit: * = quotes from .gov website with links, ask if there's any newer advice from the government, and can they point you to it. That link above is from 38 days ago - there won't have been any major changes. You have done your research, and it is now their turn to demonstrate they can conterract, with proof.


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## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2020)

Also, you can send this on Monday. No need to panic, right?


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## Cid (Jul 24, 2020)

Yep, sit on it over the weekend and maybe do a bit of a rewrite when you’re in a good mood. But broadly seems ok...  just perhaps temper the age discrimination thing, as presumably this is a government requirement rather than uni specific.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think I've fucked up. I was cautioned for shoplifting aged thirteen or fourteen (I think 13 but god knows, it's over thirty years ago) When I did the UCAS application everything I read seemed to advise that this would be filtered and I should not declare it. So I didn't.
> 
> Now I have read advice to the effect that I really should have disclosed this as it is an enhanced check. I've read and reread the giv dbs site and I just find it confusing. I've submitted all my forms. Should I ask the admissions officer for advice tomorrow? I'm having a massive panic about it.


I thought everything from back then would have disappeared when you were 17


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

5t3IIa said:


> Also, you can send this on Monday. No need to panic, right?


I'll send it today and go back to bed. I've put my back out terribly and have put off taking painkillers till I've done this cause I don't want to be woozy. I've made all the suggested changes. Thanks a lot to everyone for replying.

I joined the NEU as a trainee last night. They explicitly say they won't help with problems that existed before I joined. But if they do go hard and insist the same rules apply to everyone then it is age discrimination so I will contact them.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought everything from back then would have disappeared when you were 17


I'm over that panic now. The caution remains on the police database though it would definitely be filtered in all normal DBS checks. A grumpy policeman could include it on an enhanced DBS though it would make no sense as it has nothing to do with teaching. If this did happen I can show I had legal advice not to include it. The offence itself is pretty much meaningless and unlikely to be a problem. Though it did mean I had to pay for Iron Maiden's third album unlike the first two which I got for free.


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## baldrick (Jul 24, 2020)

Hoping it's a good sign that the next stage interview for my husband (if he gets it, will find out later today) will be for a school where I know the principal  I have messaged her


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## purves grundy (Jul 24, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I didn't need to provide evidence of my English O Levels as I have a degree in English Language and Literature, but I had to do my Maths GCSE as I hadn't seen my school certificate in thirty years


I had to do my Maths GCSE again too. A lone 33-year old lining up with hundreds of excited, spotty 16-year olds. Heard someone laughing about a pedo


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 24, 2020)

purves grundy said:


> I had to do my Maths GCSE again too. A lone 33-year old lining up with hundreds of excited, spotty 16-year olds. Heard someone laughing about a pedo


Luckily I got to sit mine (aged 46) in a sixth form college - oh, it's you, I can say Franklin   - and all the evening class students were there too.


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## purves grundy (Jul 24, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Luckily I got to sit mine (aged 46) in a sixth form college - oh, it's you, I can say Franklin   - and all the evening class students were there too.


Ahh Franklin would've been much more comfortable  

Always enjoyed invigilating... authoritative pacing in the manner of The Bill, hands clasped behind my back, occasional narrowing of the eyes pretending that I'd spotted a possible infraction etc. Never did any invigilator games with other teachers though.

(Sorry maomao : as you were)


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm over that panic now. The caution remains on the police database though it would definitely be filtered in all normal DBS checks. A grumpy policeman could include it on an enhanced DBS though it would make no sense as it has nothing to do with teaching. If this did happen I can show I had legal advice not to include it. The offence itself is pretty much meaningless and unlikely to be a problem. Though it did mean I had to pay for Iron Maiden's third album unlike the first two which I got for free.


Pain pill inspired commentary rather than news on my application but isn't it fucking amazing that there is a computer record of me trying and failing to steal a copy of Number of the Beast and a can of Brut 33 in 1987 but there isn't a database of fucking GCSE exam results.


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## equationgirl (Jul 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> Pain pill inspired commentary rather than news on my application but isn't it fucking amazing that there is a computer record of me trying and failing to steal a copy of Number of the Beast and a can of Brut 33 in 1987 but there isn't a database of fucking GCSE exam results.


The problem is nobody really started doing databases with PDF copies until the mid to late 90s. Since then, database creators have consistently found it easier to load up the new stuff rather than go back and add the historical stuff, especially if the old stuff was in a different format.

My guess is that your certificate exists as an image file on a microfilm or microfiche in storage somewhere, and nobody now has a clue how to make a copy from it. It may even be that the microfilm has degraded and can't be read - if stored properly it will last decades, if not it can be eaten by mould and destroyed. It's also possible that the records have been thrown out or flooded/burnt in a fire. So there's been an arbitrary policy created to get around these things. 

Unfortunately this policy has given rise to potential age discrimination because older candidates who can't produce certificates are affected adversely by this policy, through no fault of their own.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> The problem is nobody really started doing databases with PDF copies until the mid to late 90s. Since then, database creators have consistently found it easier to load up the new stuff rather than go back and add the historical stuff, especially if the old stuff was in a different format.
> 
> My guess is that your certificate exists as an image file on a microfilm or microfiche in storage somewhere, and nobody now has a clue how to make a copy from it. It may even be that the microfilm has degraded and can't be read - if stored properly it will last decades, if not it can be eaten by mould and destroyed. It's also possible that the records have been thrown out or flooded/burnt in a fire. So there's been an arbitrary policy created to get around these things.
> 
> Unfortunately this policy has given rise to potential age discrimination because older candidates who can't produce certificates are affected adversely by this policy, through no fault of their own.


Well, I've badgered them all day now and they're going to let me do the online version of the equivalency exams. I can deal with that. Nearly 400 nicker though.


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## equationgirl (Jul 24, 2020)

maomao said:


> Well, I've badgered them all day now and they're going to let me do the online version of the equivalency exams. I can deal with that. Nearly 400 nicker though.


Ouch. Bit steep, that fee. 
Once you're through this, you could consider making a formal complaint about their arbitrary policy.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Ouch. Bit steep, that fee.
> Once you're through this, you could consider making a formal complaint about their arbitrary policy.


I've already mentioned that I will be making a complaint. Also now I have to take an English GCSE on Monday lol. And a maths one the Monday after.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 24, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Ouch. Bit steep, that fee.
> Once you're through this, you could consider making a formal complaint about their arbitrary policy.



It'll be DfE policy, not the institution itself.


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## maomao (Jul 24, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It'll be DfE policy, not the institution itself.


Get Into Teaching disagree. They say UEL should honour dfe policy and I could take it up with the lea. I'll complain anyway. They can't fail me for complaining.


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## maomao (Jul 25, 2020)

Overnight someone on Facebook has told me definitively the exam boards of the two GCSEs I'm after. Both now with AQA who do an expedited service if needed for university applications but still can't promise within the time limit (or they could have lost them entirely, it's not 100%). I'll stick with the equivalencies because I'm 99% sure I can get the results but I'm determined to complain to UEL once I'm safely in. It's costing me an extra 325 quid and 50+ hours of study because they make no allowances for coronavirus despite government guidelines and refuse to acknowledge any effect age may have on ability to retreive certificates.


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## scifisam (Jul 27, 2020)

maomao said:


> Overnight someone on Facebook has told me definitively the exam boards of the two GCSEs I'm after. Both now with AQA who do an expedited service if needed for university applications but still can't promise within the time limit (or they could have lost them entirely, it's not 100%). I'll stick with the equivalencies because I'm 99% sure I can get the results but I'm determined to complain to UEL once I'm safely in. It's costing me an extra 325 quid and 50+ hours of study because they make no allowances for coronavirus despite government guidelines and refuse to acknowledge any effect age may have on ability to retreive certificates.



I think the equivalency tests were free when I took them (2005?) or at least no more expensive than a GCSE private entry (which is under £100 in total for maths and English) - they must have been, because I wouldn't have been able to afford to do the course if I had to pay as much as you before even starting. Charging the equivalent of GCSE entry might be fair, but since they don't provide any tuition, there's no justification for charging such a high amount. 

The maths equivalency test was much easier than the GCSE maths I had to tutor my daughter through a few years later, and studying for it did actually help me help her. It also made the QTS numeracy skills test easy - several of my fellow students failed it first time, and one had to take it three times. Those have been scrapped, but it seems like there's still an element of assessment of your numeracy and literacy skills involved in passing your PGCE.

So there are a couple of upsides.


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## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2020)

maomao said:


> Overnight someone on Facebook has told me definitively the exam boards of the two GCSEs I'm after. Both now with AQA who do an expedited service if needed for university applications but still can't promise within the time limit (or they could have lost them entirely, it's not 100%). I'll stick with the equivalencies because I'm 99% sure I can get the results but I'm determined to complain to UEL once I'm safely in. It's costing me an extra 325 quid and 50+ hours of study because they make no allowances for coronavirus despite government guidelines and refuse to acknowledge any effect age may have on ability to retreive certificates.


It's pretty crappy of them not to make any allowances for coronavirus.


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## maomao (Jul 27, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> It's pretty crappy of them not to make any allowances for coronavirus.


I suppose it's better to have it out of the way before the course starts or I could end up having to do them at the same time, PGCEs are famously hard work as it is. Even knowing the exam board now is no guarantee they can retrieve it. The money is a kick in the balls right now but it's done already. 

I have the English one at 11.30 today (then maths next Monday). I should try and get back to sleep. I've done as much study as I really could do in two days so should be okay.


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## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2020)

maomao said:


> I suppose it's better to have it out of the way before the course starts or I could end up having to do them at the same time, PGCEs are famously hard work as it is. Even knowing the exam board now is no guarantee they can retrieve it. The money is a kick in the balls right now but it's done already.
> 
> I have the English one at 11.30 today (then maths next Monday). I should try and get back to sleep. I've done as much study as I really could do in two days so should be okay.


I should try to sleep too. Best of luck for tomorrow.

It also occurred to me that it takes so long because people have other work to do, and  they might have to wait until they have a bunch of certificates to retrieve as it might not be cost effective to do them individually. Also the storage is probably off site, like Iron Mountain, and it can take a few days to locate the boxes containing the certificates copies. Plus it is holiday season and people are starting to go away.

So they can't put a definitive retrieval time on requests, unfortunately.


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## maomao (Jul 27, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> I should try to sleep too. Best of luck for tomorrow.
> 
> It also occurred to me that it takes so long because people have other work to do, and  they might have to wait until they have a bunch of certificates to retrieve as it might not be cost effective to do them individually. Also the storage is probably off site, like Iron Mountain, and it can take a few days to locate the boxes containing the certificates copies. Plus it is holiday season and people are starting to go away.
> 
> So they can't put a definitive retrieval time on requests, unfortunately.


And of course the proper time to apply for a PGCE is at least six months ago, not a few weeks before the course begins. Think I need to accept that my unusually late application needs a little flexibility from me as well.

And of course I didn't get another wink of sleep. But I've prepared more than I had in 1990.


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## baldrick (Jul 27, 2020)

Hope it went well.


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## maomao (Jul 27, 2020)

baldrick said:


> Hope it went well.


Thanks. I'm pretty sure I passed. It was very similar to some practice papers I had been using and both the creative writing tasks were within topics I had mini plans for. My 16 point answer was longer than my 24 point answer but I ran out of time.

Worst thing was Virgin media going down at 11.30 exactly. Had to tether the laptop to my phone and actually had to start a new GiffGaff goody bag half an hour into the exam when it became clear I didn't have enough data to finish


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## scifisam (Jul 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> Thanks. I'm pretty sure I passed. It was very similar to some practice papers I had been using and both the creative writing tasks were within topics I had mini plans for. My 16 point answer was longer than my 24 point answer but I ran out of time.
> 
> Worst thing was Virgin media going down at 11.30 exactly. Had to tether the laptop to my phone and actually had to start a new GiffGaff goody bag half an hour into the exam when it became clear I didn't have enough data to finish



Typical! However, it will give you some insight into what students are also having to deal with when being taught online. It's still not clear which students will be able to go back and how, but there will be some students needing alternative provision who didn't before corona, and you'll all need to be prepared for another lockdown.

It'll be a really interesting time to do a PGCE. Hit the ground running


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## maomao (Jul 28, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Typical! However, it will give you some insight into what students are also having to deal with when being taught online. It's still not clear which students will be able to go back and how, but there will be some students needing alternative provision who didn't before corona, and you'll all need to be prepared for another lockdown.
> 
> It'll be a really interesting time to do a PGCE. Hit the ground running


Hitting the ground running has always been the plan, I know I'm probably starting a little behind the average student. Part of the reason I was peed off about having to do the retakes was wanting to get dug into the reading list (for the PGCE itself and more broadly for the KS3 syllabus).

I'll have to sort something more reliable for next week. The 4g held but used more than half my data allowance. Apparently the Universities who've authorised online testing are able to not accept results if there are too many dropouts. It was quite strict, had to pick the laptop up and give the invigilator a look round the room, check no notes hidden on the floor or anything and not allowed to leave the camera frame at any time. Which means no loo breaks; will drink less coffee next week.

It is going to be a strange year. There'll be no school placement till after October half term anyway to give schools a chance to settle down first and lectures but not seminars will be online for me for the first few weeks.

Anyway, 6 days to learn GCSE maths now. Looks harder than when I was at school and I'm only doing the foundation paper.


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## equationgirl (Jul 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> Hitting the ground running has always been the plan, I know I'm probably starting a little behind the average student. Part of the reason I was peed off about having to do the retakes was wanting to get dug into the reading list (for the PGCE itself and more broadly for the KS3 syllabus).
> 
> I'll have to sort something more reliable for next week. The 4g held but used more than half my data allowance. Apparently the Universities who've authorised online testing are able to not accept results if there are too many dropouts. It was quite strict, had to pick the laptop up and give the invigilator a look round the room, check no notes hidden on the floor or anything and not allowed to leave the camera frame at any time. Which means no loo breaks; will drink less coffee next week.
> 
> ...


If you get stuck give me a shout, happy to help


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## maomao (Jul 28, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> If you get stuck give me a shout, happy to help


I may well do that. Cheers.


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## equationgirl (Jul 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> I may well do that. Cheers.


No worries, might be a bit rusty but I'm sure we can figure it out.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 28, 2020)

Same offer maomao - if there's a particular area you need a "tip" or most effective tactic available for, feel free to PM. Mrs SI helped me so much with my maths I dropped only 14 marks over two papers and eventually I ended up teaching Funky Skills lol


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## maomao (Jul 28, 2020)

I'm quietly confident about Maths. I hated it but my teacher thought I was talented at it to the point she bought me a calculator (parents were to occupied fighting and divorcing to care). I ended up going to a gig the night before (rhcp ), not studying a single minute and getting a b.

The second half of the revision book is scary though. I've forgotten a lot of geometry especially.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 28, 2020)

When I did the foundation paper(s) in 2017 I genuinely enjoyed it. I saw it as a series of logic problems. The "normal" students where I sat it didn't do the foundation paper as it was pretty wordy and figuring out what maths they were expected to do threw them, but I sat it independently having done no course. 
It's harder since then with elements of trig but Mrs SI says it's still the same sort of thing.


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## maomao (Jul 28, 2020)

S☼I said:


> When I did the foundation paper(s) in 2017 I genuinely enjoyed it. I saw it as a series of logic problems. The "normal" students where I sat it didn't do the foundation paper as it was pretty wordy and figuring out what maths they were expected to do threw them, but I sat it independently having done no course.
> It's harder since then with elements of trig but Mrs SI says it's still the same sort of thing.


Shouldn't be any full on trig because it's a no calculator exam. 

It's a lot easier to know how well you've done with a maths exam too. I'd like to think I got a B or so yesterday but fuck knows, I could be wrong in either direction. 

Though if anyone is doing or knows anyone who is doing online equivalency tests or any equivalency test with A-star it would be worth PMing me as I would have very useful advice.


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## baldrick (Jul 28, 2020)

Mr Baldrick has got an offer to start his pgce. I have to laugh about it, out of all the schools in Birmingham he gets the one where my friend is the principal and I know several of the staff   A frantic search over the weekend uncovered his English GCSE certificate so he's all set. Did the finance bit this morning. The money will be a bit of an adjustment for us in terms of income but I think long term this will be a good move. Job hunting in a recession is fucking depressing.


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## kabbes (Jul 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> Pain pill inspired commentary rather than news on my application but isn't it fucking amazing that there is a computer record of me trying and failing to steal a copy of Number of the Beast and a can of Brut 33 in 1987 but there isn't a database of fucking GCSE exam results.


It is amazing, but if you think about it, it’s even more amazing that the result of an exam taken 30 years ago in a subject promptly forgotten about is even considered relevant in the first place.  Is there a minimum standard needed in maths (for example)?  If so, everyone should actually need to demonstrate _current_ competence to this standard in advance of doing the course.  Or is there no such standard needed in reality? in which case, what is the exam result from 30 years ago meant to prove?

(My concern is that the answer to that question comes from an institutional desire to classify people into the “capable“ and the “incapable“, and that they view an exam pass 30 years previously as evidence of belonging to the “capable” category.  Which is not at all a helpful way of viewing human beings.)


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## spanglechick (Jul 28, 2020)

There’s also the fact that I, doing my pgce in 1995 didn’t have to show any certificates except my degree.  Which is good because my school in their wisdom kept them all.  I mean I did get a C in English and an A in Maths (also back in 1990) and half my degree is in English, but they just took my word for it.  
And I have _never_ needed anything more than competence with working numeracy as a teacher of English (passim) Drama and Film.  Gcse maths is a long, long, way beyond functional  numeracy.


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## scifisam (Jul 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It is amazing, but if you think about it, it’s even more amazing that the result of an exam taken 30 years ago in a subject promptly forgotten about is even considered relevant in the first place.  Is there a minimum standard needed in maths (for example)?  If so, everyone should actually need to demonstrate _current_ competence to this standard in advance of doing the course.  Or is there no such standard needed in reality? in which case, what is the exam result from 30 years ago meant to prove?
> 
> (My concern is that the answer to that question comes from an institutional desire to classify people into the “capable“ and the “incapable“, and that they view an exam pass 30 years previously as evidence of belonging to the “capable” category.  Which is not at all a helpful way of viewing human beings.)



Until last year there were functional skills tests in literacy and numeracy (a few years ago there was one in IT too), but now universities are supposed to assess that themselves.


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## maomao (Aug 3, 2020)

That wasn't too bad. Positive feedback from invigilator who gave it the once over. Turns out my wife is very good at algebra. She's been telling me she's better at maths than me for sixteen years while asking me the answer to every bit of household arithmetic and geometry that arises. Turns out she's just very good at the bit that I'm shit at.

I've got emails telling me what to do for the dbs and medical checks that I will crack on with soon. It seems unlikely I failed English and I'd just do it again of I had. But I think I get a few weeks to chill out a little bit before the genuinely difficult bit begins. 

Thanks again for all advice and encouragement.


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## scifisam (Aug 4, 2020)

maomao said:


> That wasn't too bad. Positive feedback from invigilator who gave it the once over. Turns out my wife is very good at algebra. She's been telling me she's better at maths than me for sixteen years while asking me the answer to every bit of household arithmetic and geometry that arises. Turns out she's just very good at the bit that I'm shit at.
> 
> I've got emails telling me what to do for the dbs and medical checks that I will crack on with soon. It seems unlikely I failed English and I'd just do it again of I had. But I think I get a few weeks to chill out a little bit before the genuinely difficult bit begins.
> 
> Thanks again for all advice and encouragement.



Maths and arithmetic are different. I guess it depends how you define it, but I can work out fairly complicated sums in my head without trying, but even some aspects of GCSE maths were hard. My ex-ex also helped me through the equivalency test and is great at the more complex bits of maths, but I can easily beat her at her at things like the Countdown numbers game.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Maths and arithmetic are different. I guess it depends how you define it, but I can work out fairly complicated sums in my head without trying, but even some aspects of GCSE maths were hard. My ex-ex also helped me through the equivalency test and is great at the more complex bits of maths, but I can easily beat her at her at things like the Countdown numbers game.


I cannot do the countdown numbers game and am impressed by anyone who can.


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## maomao (Aug 4, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> I cannot do the countdown numbers game and am impressed by anyone who can.


I used to be able to do it back in Vorderman days but haven't watched it in years.

Anyway, the only algebra yesterday was very easy. No quadratics and the simultaneous equations were to be plotted on a graph which is the easiest way. I probably dropped a couple of points for not being able to draw a factor tree or a probability tree but I got the actual answers right. And there was lots of geometry which I quite like really.


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## maomao (Aug 4, 2020)

Got a grade 6 on last weeks English exam which is a b equivalent but feels like a d (because 9 is the highest). I did only have two days to prepare and only had a b from 1990 anyway. Don't know why I think I might have improved since then.

More than enough anyway.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2020)

maomao said:


> Got a grade 6 on last weeks English exam which is a b equivalent but feels like a d (because 9 is the highest). I did only have two days to prepare and only had a b from 1990 anyway. Don't know why I think I might have improved since then.
> 
> More than enough anyway.


Brilliant, well done you


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## maomao (Aug 4, 2020)

She spelled my name wrong (female version of my name, and not even my preferred female version) in the email telling me so I was emailing her back about that (cause it's going to be on the certificate) anyway and I noticed that my score was over their published grade boundary for a 7. And I had to pay them loads of money in the first place. So I emailed them back, politely, to ask if they could check their spelling and maths lol.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2020)

maomao said:


> She spelled my name wrong (female version of my name, and not even my preferred female version) in the email telling me so I was emailing her back about that (cause it's going to be on the certificate) anyway and I noticed that my score was over their published grade boundary for a 7. And I had to pay them loads of money in the first place. So I emailed them back, politely, to ask if they could check their spelling and maths lol.


Good for you. There's no excuse for inaccuracies.


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## maomao (Aug 4, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Good for you. There's no excuse for inaccuracies.


It's an adjustment for single paper exams. Which is fair enough. And they apologised about the name.


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## maomao (Aug 12, 2020)

92/100 for maths but that's a B/5 cause it was only the foundation paper.

DBS done, medical check done. Loan application started. When I get the final certificate I can upload it to UEL and we can get on with the difficult bit. They still haven't told me what day we're actually starting.


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2020)

maomao said:


> 92/100 for maths but that's a B/5 cause it was only the foundation paper.
> 
> DBS done, medical check done. Loan application started. When I get the final certificate I can upload it to UEL and we can get on with the difficult bit. They still haven't told me what day we're actually starting.


That's very good considering the notice you had. Well done you.


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## maomao (Sep 8, 2020)

Just felt like adding an epilogue to this thread. Everything ended up completely fine. Enrollment completed and funding all confirmed over two weeks before the atart of term. Nothing on my DBS of course. Spent three weeks torturing myself with the reading list and pre course tasks we were set but managed to complete them. Even stopped smoking weed. 

Had an online lecture/tutorial yesterday and an actual on site lecture today. It was all new and challenging stuff but nothing that made me feel out of my depth. Everyone is incredibly friendly and supportive and although there's a lot of work to do it's a lot less scary than my main degree was. They obviously want everyone to become a working teacher by the end of it.

Anyway, half the class wasn't fully enrolled yet, hardly anyone seems to have touched the reading list or done the pre course assignments and several of them still have equivalences to take. I actually managed to contribute in class. And I wasn't even the oldest person in the class.

Still a bit scared Covid will bring it all crashing down but feeling really rather proud of myself today which is such a rare feeling it took me a minute to actually type it out.


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## Sue (Sep 8, 2020)

Excellent stuff maomao! Onwards and upwards!


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## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2020)

Fantastic update maomao great to hear you have actually started down the path to becoming a teacher. Nice one.


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## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2020)

Think you timed it right maomao bursaries for English and some other subjects are being scrapped or cut from 2021. There's an article on the BBC website about it.


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Think you timed it right maomao bursaries for English and some other subjects are being scrapped or cut from 2021. There's an article on the BBC website about it.



They've mostly only kept them for science and IT as they  obviously think they'll find enough candidates with so many out of work this year. The 2020 bursaries were pretty high though that was as an incentive in response to teacher shortages. I can unerstand why they've been cut but it still feels cynical and will remove the option for a lot of mature students like me. I certainly couldn't have done it without the bursary. Mrs maomao has been preparing an aplication for 2021 (to teach Mandarin, there are schools that will take just one language) and just found out on Tuesday the bursary has been cut from 26k to 10k. She'll probably still do it but we won't be as rich as we thought we might be.

Meanwhile, placements are meant to start on October 20th but (apart from the prospect of school closures) 9 out of 21 of us (including me) don't have schools to go to yet. And if I end up losing too many weeks teaching it raises the prospect of having to finish the course next year now with no bursary. Could be difficult but given the state of the job market at the moment I'm still very lucky to have somewhere to shelter from it all.


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## scifisam (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> They've mostly only kept them for science and IT as they  obviously think they'll find enough candidates with so many out of work this year. The 2020 bursaries were pretty high though that was as an incentive in response to teacher shortages. I can unerstand why they've been cut but it still feels cynical and will remove the option for a lot of mature students like me. I certainly couldn't have done it without the bursary. Mrs maomao has been preparing an aplication for 2021 (to teach Mandarin, there are schools that will take just one language) and just found out on Tuesday the bursary has been cut from 26k to 10k. She'll probably still do it but we won't be as rich as we thought we might be.
> 
> Meanwhile, placements are meant to start on October 20th but (apart from the prospect of school closures) 9 out of 21 of us (including me) don't have schools to go to yet. And if I end up losing too many weeks teaching it raises the prospect of having to finish the course next year now with no bursary. Could be difficult but given the state of the job market at the moment I'm still very lucky to have somewhere to shelter from it all.



When it comes to bursaries, they've been changed practically every couple of years, so it's never been something you can really depend on. Mine was £6k in 2006! But there have been some years for English that got nothing at all.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> They've mostly only kept them for science and IT as they  obviously think they'll find enough candidates with so many out of work this year. The 2020 bursaries were pretty high though that was as an incentive in response to teacher shortages. I can unerstand why they've been cut but it still feels cynical and will remove the option for a lot of mature students like me. I certainly couldn't have done it without the bursary. Mrs maomao has been preparing an aplication for 2021 (to teach Mandarin, there are schools that will take just one language) and just found out on Tuesday the bursary has been cut from 26k to 10k. She'll probably still do it but we won't be as rich as we thought we might be.
> 
> Meanwhile, placements are meant to start on October 20th but (apart from the prospect of school closures) 9 out of 21 of us (including me) don't have schools to go to yet. And if I end up losing too many weeks teaching it raises the prospect of having to finish the course next year now with no bursary. Could be difficult but given the state of the job market at the moment I'm still very lucky to have somewhere to shelter from it all.



Last year's cohort were able to finish their required experience on time via online work apparently. Considering how keen they are to get new teachers trained, I'm sure allowances will be made even if it means people like me and you end up as NQT's with little 'normal' classroom experience. 

I'm already having to consider the fact that many normal teaching methods like observing group discussions are basically out of the question for the forseeable. As is personal support for SEN and EAL students, which is something that you have to show evidence of doing.


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

scifisam said:


> When it comes to bursaries, they've been changed practically every couple of years, so it's never been something you can really depend on. Mine was £6k in 2006! But there have been some years for English that got nothing at all.


The 2020 bursaries were massive. There was a lot of chatter about it in my class though cause I think a few of us had partners or friends planning to do it next year.

If mrs maomao had got the (bigger) bursary for next year I had thought (as in not decided or planned yet) of doing an English MA next year so I could be slightly more flexible for childcare and would be a better English teacher the year after. Even more unlikely now though.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

But fucking hell the bursary for my course will be 19,000 less next year. Doesn't even cover fees.


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Last year's cohort were able to finish their required experience on time via online work apparently. Considering how keen they are to get new teachers trained, I'm sure allowances will be made even if it means people like me and you end up as NQT's with little 'normal' classroom experience.
> 
> I'm already having to consider the fact that many normal teaching methods like observing group discussions are basically out of the question for the forseeable. As is personal support for SEN and EAL students, which is something that you have to show evidence of doing.


There's at least one student at UEL this year who is finishing last year's course this year as he didn't get a placement till October and stopped in March. They have dropped standards but there are still standards.

But as far as I can tell the first two years as NQT are still observed and assessed so we won't be fully qualified teachers for a couple more years anyway.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> There's at least one student at UEL this year who is finishing last year's course this year as he didn't get a placement till October and stopped in March. They have dropped standards but there are still standards.
> 
> But as far as I can tell the first two years as NQT are still observed and assessed so we won't be fully qualified teachers for a couple more years anyway.



Well I can't afford to do this past July with no funding. Me and Mrs Frank are both living off my bursary at present.


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 15, 2020)

Thanks for the updates maomao


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well I can't afford to do this past July with no funding. Me and Mrs Frank are both living off my bursary at present.


Didn't know you were a biologist. God knows what they/we will do. I'm supporting a family of four on mine plus loan plus various grants.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> Didn't know you were a biologist. God knows what they/we will do. I'm supporting a family of four on mine plus loan plus various grants.



Yes and my course is mostly biologists so if that's the case on PGCE science courses generally there will be a glut of us next year. I suspect many of those won't want to teach though, there have been a few dropouts already.


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## scifisam (Oct 15, 2020)

Yup, that's why I decided to start an MA this year despite it being a bad time to do it - currently, it's funded. 

TBF, for you, studying for an MA in your first year of teaching while also being a parent of young children would be absolutely fucking impossible anyway. 



SpookyFrank said:


> But fucking hell the bursary for my course will be 19,000 less next year. Doesn't even cover fees.



Whaaat? I thought bursaries were separate to fees?


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Whaaat? I thought bursaries were separate to fees?



They are, and the timescale of bursary payments means you can't use them to pay fees anyway. I've got a fees-only loan. 

You'd think paying the fees directly and reducing the bursaries accordingly would be a more sane approach to this but tbh I'd rather have more cash now and stick the fees on the never-never.


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

scifisam said:


> studying for an MA in your first year of teaching while also being a parent of young children would be absolutely fucking impossible anyway.


Yes, that would be absolutely impossible. I meant take a year out of teaching (before even starting) to do it. But it was a half-formed idea I just had two days before the bursaries got cut and I have no idea how it would go down with the uni or potential employers.

I do feel that as I'm now lumbered with debt for the rest of my working life I may as well take advantage and keep studying but that will probably be through the OU and once I've settled in.


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## scifisam (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> Yes, that would be absolutely impossible. I meant take a year out of teaching (before even starting) to do it. But it was a half-formed idea I just had two days before the bursaries got cut and I have no idea how it would go down with the uni or potential employers.
> 
> I do feel that as I'm now lumbered with debt for the rest of my working life I may as well take advantage and keep studying but that will probably be through the OU and once I've settled in.



Ah, I get you. But TBH I think you should be aiming to be a teacher rather than a head of year or whatever before you've even started. It might well be a sensible idea, but it doesn't sit well with me.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 15, 2020)

Besides, a couple of years of teaching might very well inform what you do an MA _on_.


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Ah, I get you. But TBH I think you should be aiming to be a teacher rather than a head of year or whatever before you've even started. It might well be a sensible idea, but it doesn't sit well with me.


It wouldn't be out of career ambition! Otherwise I'd do the MEd that I'll have some credits towards at the end of this. It would be because I do feel slightly behind on some of the literature elements of the syllabus and I think a teacher should be some sort of authority on their subject. As well as allowing me to do more childcare while my wife was on a busy PGCE year and just giving me an extra year of my life to be a student which is a fabulous privilege.

If it was some sort of subliminal professional ambition it would be the first time it's showed itself in 46 years of being me! It's useful to have it pointed out that it might be interpreted as that though.


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## scifisam (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> It wouldn't be out of career ambition! Otherwise I'd do the MEd that I'll have some credits towards at the end of this. It would be because I do feel slightly behind on some of the literature elements of the syllabus and I think a teacher should be some sort of authority on their subject. As well as allowing me to do more childcare while my wife was on a busy PGCE year and just giving me an extra year of my life to be a student which is a fabulous privilege.
> 
> If it was some sort of subliminal professional ambition it would be the first time it's showed itself in 46 years of being me! It's useful to have it pointed out that it might be interpreted as that though.



You'll have credits towards an MEd??

Sorry if it seemed in a way it wasn't intended. TBH, it's partly because at UEL there was a really strong male bias for leading male teachers on the PGCE course towards management positions, and it's a bit of a thing in teaching in general.


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## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

scifisam said:


> You'll have credits towards an MEd??



That's what I was told. The two level 7 academic units add up to 60 credits and could be used towards a relevant MA or MEd. It was in a recorded lecture by the course leader so I could check but when I heard it it sounded like it applied to all PGCEs or at least UEL ones.



> Sorry if it seemed in a way it wasn't intended. TBH, it's partly because at UEL there was a really strong male bias for leading male teachers on the PGCE course towards management positions, and it's a bit of a thing in teaching in general.



I can imagine tbh and I'm sorry if I was laughing off my male privilege but it would be very unlike me and I'm still so nervous about the job itself that the idea that I was going for promotion was a bit funny.


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## scifisam (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> That's what I was told. The two level 7 academic units add up to 60 credits and could be used towards a relevant MA or MEd. It was in a recorded lecture by the course leader so I could check but when I heard it it sounded like it applied to all PGCEs or at least UEL ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## spanglechick (Oct 15, 2020)

There were no bursaries for any subjects back when I did my pgce.  No tuition fees either, but rent, food and everything else had to be self-funded.


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## chilango (Oct 15, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Besides, a couple of years of teaching might very well inform what you do an MA _on_.



...and what you _don't_ do it on.


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## chilango (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> That's what I was told. The two level 7 academic units add up to 60 credits and could be used towards a relevant MA or MEd. It was in a recorded lecture by the course leader so I could check but when I heard it it sounded like it applied to all PGCEs or at least UEL ones.
> 
> 
> 
> I can imagine tbh and I'm sorry if I was laughing off my male privilege but it would be very unlike me and I'm still so nervous about the job itself that the idea that I was going for promotion was a bit funny.



If some of your PGCE credits count towards a Master's (I think MAs as well at least here) they do expire so don't leave it too long. Also if your an is to do it one year f/t then that would normally assume you'd have no credits as far as the timings go, so you maybe a term with not much to do?

I loved my MA. P/t was a real struggle though and accidentally getting to do the dissertation stage f/t was a revelation. 

At the same time the more I've studied the more I wanted to move away from school teaching!

Another thing to note is that some school will help pay your fees if you're doing a Master's p/t. They may we'll try and dictate your content in return though.


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## Mation (Oct 16, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> They are, and the timescale of bursary payments means you can't use them to pay fees anyway. I've got a fees-only loan.
> 
> You'd think paying the fees directly and reducing the bursaries accordingly would be a more sane approach to this but tbh I'd rather have more cash now and stick the fees on the never-never.


I was able to use my bursary to pay my fees. Both were monthly.


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## maomao (Oct 19, 2020)

Well I finally got a placement but they've sent me to Southend. :|

Was just grateful to be getting on with the course so haven't quibbled about the travel money. Yet.


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## equationgirl (Oct 19, 2020)

My brother got sent to a very under-resourced school during his training, where the admin team told him he had to pay for his own photocopying for classes and there were so few students that had any equipment he ended up buying rulers, protractors, compasses etc in bulk and raiding the tubs of pencils we had in the house to take in, so that everyone had the equipment to do that day's lesson.

So check what the schoo or uni will pay for and what you might have to supply would be my advice.


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## scifisam (Oct 19, 2020)

maomao said:


> Well I finally got a placement but they've sent me to Southend. :|
> 
> Was just grateful to be getting on with the course so haven't quibbled about the travel money. Yet.



The exact same thing happened to one of the people on my course. She was on the verge of quitting; they gave her money from the hardship fund, and made sure her second placement was much closer to home. Though I guess it was slightly different, as our bursaries were far lower. She also negotiated a slightly later starting time, as did I on a placement that would have required childcare from 5.30am (basically missing the morning meetings except for Mondays).


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## maomao (Oct 19, 2020)

scifisam said:


> The exact same thing happened to one of the people on my course. She was on the verge of quitting; they gave her money from the hardship fund, and made sure her second placement was much closer to home. Though I guess it was slightly different, as our bursaries were far lower. She also negotiated a slightly later starting time, as did I on a placement that would have required childcare from 5.30am (basically missing the morning meetings except for Mondays).


It's all good. It's only 40-odd minutes on the train (it's a couple of stops before Southend proper) and I'm pretty sure I can get a student railcard. Should cost less than a job or placement in Zone 1 would. And there's no-one on the course lives nearer than me. There's still 8 people in my class, and dozens more in other classes, who don't have placements at all because the uni went mad taking just about anyone (as proved by my presence) to get as much dosh as they could when it was clear covid was going to cause issues. I'm just happy to have something to do.


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## maomao (Jul 5, 2022)

Well, 2 years, 2 weeks and a whole lifetime's worth of shit later my final essay has just passed and I have been told I should have QTS and a PGCE by the end of the month. I'm still working in Essex, though not at the school where I did my first placement, and have just signed up for another year of working far too hard and being unnappreciated.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 5, 2022)

Welcome to the club.

Relax as much as you can while you have the time.


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## Sue (Jul 5, 2022)

maomao said:


> Well, 2 years, 2 weeks and a whole lifetime's worth of shit later my final essay has just passed and I have been told I should have QTS and a PGCE by the end of the month. I'm still working in Essex, though not at the school where I did my first placement, and have just signed up for another year of working far too hard and being unnappreciated.


Congratulations, maomao. What an achievement! 🎉


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## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 5, 2022)

maomao said:


> Well, 2 years, 2 weeks and a whole lifetime's worth of shit later my final essay has just passed and I have been told I should have QTS and a PGCE by the end of the month. I'm still working in Essex, though not at the school where I did my first placement, and have just signed up for another year of working far too hard and being unnappreciated.


Congratulations! 🙂


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## Nikkormat (Jul 6, 2022)

Congratulations maomao. I went a slightly different route, but ultimately it was one of the best things I've ever done.


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## Red Cat (Jul 6, 2022)

maomao said:


> Well, 2 years, 2 weeks and a whole lifetime's worth of shit later my final essay has just passed and I have been told I should have QTS and a PGCE by the end of the month. I'm still working in Essex, though not at the school where I did my first placement, and have just signed up for another year of working far too hard and being unnappreciated.



That's a huge achievement maomao, congratulations.


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## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2022)

You did it maomao !!!!! Brilliant news!! Well done you x


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## Edie (Jul 6, 2022)

maomao said:


> Well, 2 years, 2 weeks and a whole lifetime's worth of shit later my final essay has just passed and I have been told I should have QTS and a PGCE by the end of the month. I'm still working in Essex, though not at the school where I did my first placement, and have just signed up for another year of working far too hard and being unnappreciated.


Wow bloody well done that’s little short of a miracle with everything your family has been through. Congratulations!


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## scifisam (Jul 6, 2022)

Blood well done maomao!


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## Plumdaff (Jul 6, 2022)

Incredible achievement maomao .Well done!


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## A380 (Jul 6, 2022)

Well done!


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2022)

Wonderful news - well done. You should allow yourself a little pride


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