# Non-attractive actresses in film



## D'wards (Oct 2, 2012)

Are there any? Plenty of average looking male actors  - usually called "character actors".

Whilst i'm loathe to comment on anyone's looks, i think it shows a certain sexism in the film industry/society.

I think its the same in tv presenting - can you name an ugly female presenter? On the other hand, Adrian Chiles.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2012)

I can think of plenty but think it wouldn't be fair play to point them out.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 2, 2012)

Yes, but they are cast in the role of stereotypically evil person, nagging wife, sour old person, etc. in contrast to what you call 'unattractive' male actors, who still get parts where they can be seen as desirable. Because we value different things in men and women. Men are desirable if they are successful, rich, funny, popular, quick-witted, sophisticated, and looks may or may not be a part of that. Women are desirable if they are hot, oh, and I suppose it doesn't hurt if they are also all of those other things, but that's secondary.

How's that for an answer?


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## 8ball (Oct 2, 2012)

Hard to say what you mean by 'non-attractive'.

You get female character actors - though I suppose not as many as men, and they're usually older.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm reminded of the furore over the recent GQ covers depicting their men and woman of the year. That was fun.

Edit: by 'furore' and 'that was fun' I don't mean to imply it was a lot of fuss over nothing. There were some important things to be talked about. It was the rather predictable backlash from some along the lines of "I don't know what your fucking problem is, love" that were annoying.


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## Reno (Oct 2, 2012)

When it comes to Hollywood films, the same goes mostly for men as it does for women. There are lots of pretty boy actors like Taylor Kitsch, Zac Effron and Ryan Reynolds around. And there are a few female stars who are not conventionally beautiful as well, like Glenn Close and Frances McDormand who get by on sheer talent. It's not exactly great news though that on the whole audiences prefer to look at people who they regard as beautiful or attractive.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 2, 2012)

Reno said:


> When it comes to Hollywood films, the same goes mostly for men as it does for women. There are lots of pretty boy actors like Taylor Kitsch, Zac Effron and Ryan Reynolds around. And there are a few female stars who are not conventionally beautiful as well, like Glenn Close and Frances McDormand who get by on sheer talent. It's not exactly great news though that on the whole audiences prefer to look at people who they regard as beautiful or attractive.


 
While that's true, you get films like some romcoms and so on, where the male lead won't be traditionally attractive (whatever the hell that means), but the woman will be. But I suppose that sort of film often plays off the juxtaposition between dorky 'can't get a girl' guy and hot chick dynamic. Which in itself is a pile of wank playing directly into the same bullshit ideas of it being more important that a woman is hot than a man. Etc.

Then there's someone like Glenn Close, who would have been viewed as attractive back when she was younger (that sounds dreadful, I still think she is, but you understand what I mean, I hope), and has been able to build a career up since then. Younger women who aren't desperately attractive in the hollywood mould don't generally get the lead unless they need to specifically fulfil the role of someone who is categorically not attractive, and that be a part of their character.

This is, of course, dreadfully generalising. There are, of course, lots of men and women in film who contradict this. But as a _trend_ it's easy to see there is a distinction.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Romcoms frequently cast conventionally attractive men. Dermot Mulroney, Ashton Kuchner, Ryan Reynolds and Matthew McConaughey are the blandly pretty kings of the romcom. Of course they would cast hunks, these films are aimed at female audiences who like to look at attractive men just as much as men like to look at beautiful women.

There was great resistance by the producers to casting Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction because she wasn't considered sexy and beautiful enough. Of course she isn't ugly, but in the person she looks like a rather plain woman.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

I did say 'some' romcoms


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I did say 'some' romcoms


 
..and 'some' romcoms will cast women who aren't knockouts like Kristen Wiig, Amy Adams or Tiny Fey.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 3, 2012)

They're gorgeous though!


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> They're gorgeous though!


 
Who are these apparently ugly men they are casting in romocoms then. I'm sure they are just the male equivalent of the women I've mentioned. Nice looking, but not unrealistically glamorous and you probably wouldn't notice the likes of Kristen Wiig at Tesco without make up and a designer dress. Steve Carell or Chris O'Dowd ? I'd go there.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 3, 2012)

I saw A View To A Kill the other and had to endure an unconvincing and unsettling love scene between Roger Moore and Grace Jones. 
It was compelling evidence, however, that there's a lot of work to be done before there is true equality between the sexes.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> Who are these apparently ugly men they are casting in romocoms then. I'm sure they are just the male equivalent of the women I've mentioned. Nice looking, but not unrealistically glamorous and you probably wouldn't notice the likes of Kristen Wiig at Tesco without make up and a designer dress. Steve Carell or Chris O'Dowd ? I'd go there.


Many people find more normal looking people more attractive than the dolls you see on red carpets


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## weltweit (Oct 3, 2012)

Just a comment, but I have recently noticed a few more normal or ordinary looking female newsreaders on the TV. Twas not always so and no offence intended


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I saw A View To A Kill the other and had to endure an unconvincing and unsettling love scene between Roger Moore and Grace Jones.
> It was compelling evidence, however, that there's a lot of work to be done before there is true equality between the sexes.


 
That's really spooky. I've just watched that this evening.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 3, 2012)

Poor creaky old roger


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Many people find more normal looking people more attractive than the dolls you see on red carpets


 
I'm sure many people do, but I'm always rather disappointed in how unimaginative most people are in who they find attractive. I don't find the Brad Pitts of this world particularly appealing either.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Poor creaky old roger


 
I quite like A View to a Kill. It's rubbish in a good way and Grace still gets to work some 'tude.

That is the most poorly motivated and awkward seduction in film history though.


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## Miss Caphat (Oct 3, 2012)

I feel like movies, especially, are getting a bit better about the whole "women must be conventionally attractive" mandate. 
However, women clearly still must be no larger than a size 4, unless it's a tale of "despite being a chubby, therefore non-valid woman, I am able to be _sort of_ like everyone else and _almost even_ be _accepted_" 

I really feel that Hollywood/the media shoves this idea down our throats that any woman who's not stick thin is not worthy of having their stories told. That they don't matter in any way, and should just stay in the background and let the skinny women have the real lives.


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## Fez909 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I'm sure many people do, but I'm always rather disappointed in how unimaginative most people are in who they find attractive. I don't find the Brad Pitts of this world particularly appealing either.


 
It's not something people can help 

There have been studies done which compared faces and people were asked to judge their attractiveness.  The "average" face was voted the most attractive.  So while you do get very attractive people who have a really unusual look, the majority of 'attractive' people are going to be average.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> It's not something people can help
> 
> There have been studies done which compared faces and people were asked to judge their attractiveness. The "average" face was voted the most attractive. So while you do get very attractive people who have a really unusual look, the majority of 'attractive' people are going to be average.


 
I think Angelina Jolie and Scarlett Johansson get held up as ideals of female beauty and I wouldn't call them 'average". I believe some of it is instinctive, but much has to do with conditioning and what gets sold to us as beautiful. Ideals of beauty have varied drastically across countries and centuries and they have a lot to do with social and economic influences. Currently thin caucasian women with huge lips seems to be where it's at.


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## weltweit (Oct 3, 2012)

Angelina Jolie looks to me like someone who has had bad cosmetic surgery on her lips and probably now regrets it  They just look wrong to me.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Angelina Jolie looks to me like someone who has had bad cosmetic surgery on her lips and probably now regrets it  They just look wrong to me.


 
I didn't say I like her, but that's not the point I was making.

Judging from photos of when she was young, her lips appear to be natural. However her type of look is what many women who have work done seem to aspire to.


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## weltweit (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I didn't say I like her, but that's not the point I was making.


 No, as I understand it you were querying the idea that "average is attractive".. in that those women do not have average features. Or is that wrong.

Me I don't know, as a man I certainly have trouble understanding which men are attractive.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Mimi from Drew Carey:

















This is not to say that these people don't have spouses, children etc who love them dearly; but they don't conform to the standard hollywood concept of attractive. Although I will say that I think Sandra Bernhard is totally hot.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

weltweit said:


> No, as I understand it you were querying the idea that "average is attractive".. in that those women do not have average features. Or is that wrong.
> 
> Me I don't know, as a man I certainly have trouble understanding which men are attractive.


 
As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive. I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of conventionally handsome men in films and on TV.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> Ideals of beauty have varied drastically across countries and centuries and they have a lot to do with social and economic influences..


 
That's certainly true. I'm sure that any Surma man would find this woman to be totally babelicious.






You pretty much end up going with what your culture dishes up for you.


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## weltweit (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive. I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of blandly handsome men in films and on TV.


 
When I was a youth, I had a mate called George. George did fairly well with the girls but I did not think much about it. Only as an adult has my sister told me that basically George was a total hottie..... I really had no idea


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like .


 

That's just how we are. We don't need someone dissing us and calling us weird for how we are, thanks.


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## Fez909 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive. I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of conventionally handsome men in films and on TV.


 
I could never tell until recently.  Whether that means I'm going gay...


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

If someone said, 'I think gays are weird', there'd be a big backlash, and rightly so. Lay off the double standard.


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## Fez909 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I think Angelina Jolie and Scarlett Johansson get held up as ideals of female beauty and I wouldn't call them 'average". I believe some of it is instinctive, but much has to do with conditioning and what gets sold to us as beautiful. Ideals of beauty have varied drastically across countries and centuries and they have a lot to do with social and economic influences. Currently thin caucasian women with huge lips seems to be where it's at.


 
They are the few I meant in the exception to the rule clause of my argument (well, someone else's argument that I agree with).


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## Fez909 (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If someone said, 'I think gays are weird', there'd be a big backlash, and rightly so. Lay off the double standard.


 
But this happens all the time.  And gays are weird.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> But this happens all the time..


 
Yeah, by mouth breathers. The rest of us have made some small advancement.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

I know I'm weird and I'm very comfortable with letting my freak flag fly.

BTW. I never said "straight men are weird" I said the fact that they claim that they can't tell what a beautiful man looks like is weird, but if JC wants to claim victim status, then fine. Those poor marginalised hetero men. 

Anyways, it's way past bedtime for me...


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## Fez909 (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yeah, by mouth breathers. The rest of us have made some small advancement.


 
Why'd you censor my post?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I know I'm weird and I'm very comfortable with letting my freak flag fly.
> 
> I said the fact that they claim that they can't tell what a beautiful man looks like is weird,.


 
Lots of us are weird, but it has nothing to do with who we're fucking.

Saying we 'claim' we can't tell, and that that is weird.... well, sorry, but just because we're different from you doesn't make us weird.


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## pogofish (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


>


 
Have a look at Lotte Lenya in her heyday, not at the very end of her career:


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Straight guys say they can't pick out the hot men, and a bunch of people say, 'nah, you're just foolin' with us: of course you can, but you're just denying it'

It's like a guy from Mongolia, holds up a goat's eyeball and says, 'just look at this specimen, prime eating material!'

You say: 'I don't eat goat's eyeballs, and I can't really tell a desirable one from an undesirable one'

The Mongolian says 'I can accept that you don't eat them, but come on - _any_ sane and rational person should be able to pick out the really good goat's eyeballs! It's obvious!'


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

pogofish said:


> Have a look at Lotte Lenya in her heyday, not at the very end of her career:


 

I looked way better when I was 25, too. Now, I wouldn't be able to get the 'attractive' roles.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

You can tell how times have changed: just look at the nicotine stains on her fingers in the second photo.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Mickey Rooney young:







Mickey Rooney old:


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Btw, that photo of mickey rooney, he's appearing at a senate committee to testify and try to get the govt to do more about elder abuse. He was apparently a victim of it himself.

Sort of goes to the whole idea behind this thread. He don't look so good, but he has a ton of character and courage.


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## Miss Caphat (Oct 3, 2012)

ok, how can you tell whether he looks good or not in the last pic?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:


> ok, how can you tell whether he looks good or not in the last pic?


 
He definitely looks old.

Most of the Calvin Klein underwear ads? The models don't have age spots on distended knuckles: so I guess I can put that on the list of things to watch out for.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Also, probably someone who's into really old, ewok-style bears might find him attractive...


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Straight guys say they can't pick out the hot men, and a bunch of people say, 'nah, you're just foolin' with us: of course you can, but you're just denying it'
> 
> It's like a guy from Mongolia, holds up a goat's eyeball and says, 'just look at this specimen, prime eating material!'
> 
> ...


 
FFS, you sure are a whiny, old twat.


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## lefteri (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive. I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of conventionally handsome men in films and on TV.


 
many women can't tell both

and the statement you make above should read 'only the straight men I know'

For myself, loads of straight men I know can tell - if you need confirmation of the narrowness of your assertion ask straight men whether they think paul newman or steve mcqueen are attractive men

Also many straight men I know are comfortable in mixed and gay clubs and bars

It's great that the real world isn't like will & grace or gimme gimme gimme

but you might be right about the subconscious motivations for this thread


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## albionism (Oct 3, 2012)

.


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

lefteri said:


> many women can't tell both
> 
> and the statement you make above should read *'only the straight men I know'*
> 
> ...


 
I don't know the straight men who said they can't tell what a beautiful man looks like on on this thread.

Women are very aware of the looks of other women, otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of magazines exploiting the insecurities resulting from that. Maybe you meant that you don't agree with their tastes ?

What does your statement that many straight men you know feel comfortable in "mixed and gay clubs and bars" have to do with anything ? 

BTW I don't think the fact that many straight men can't tell what a beautiful man looks like has anything to do with homophobia and didn't say so anywhere.


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## Big Gunz (Oct 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I saw A View To A Kill the other and had to endure an unconvincing and unsettling love scene between Roger Moore and Grace Jones.
> It was compelling evidence, however, that there's a lot of work to be done before there is true equality between the sexes.


 
What?  That film is nearly 30 years old!


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## silverfish (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive. I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that *only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like* and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of conventionally handsome men in films and on TV.


 
really? As a straight man should I be offended that you have massively generalised about a group that I apparently belong to and which in your mind "defines me"


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## seeformiles (Oct 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I saw A View To A Kill the other and had to endure an unconvincing and unsettling love scene between Roger Moore and Grace Jones.
> It was compelling evidence, however, that there's a lot of work to be done before there is true equality between the sexes.


 
True - but VTAK is Rog's last gasp as Bond - all that soft focus filming. At least they made some effort to pair him up with Tanya Whatserface who was slightly closer to his age than some of the women in his previous films. May watch it this evening - my Ma got me the Bond DVD Box set last X-mas and I've been restricting myself to the Connery/Brosnan ones with the occasional Dalton. Should really give Roger a second chance at some point!


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## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

silverfish said:


> really? As a straight man should I be offended that you have massively generalised about a group that I apparently belong to and which in your mind "defines me"


 
Line up in the "outraged of Urban" queue behind Johnny Canuck then. There are several straight men who said they can't tell a beautiful man on this very thread, so why should I pretend this isn't the case and say "we are all the same" when it comes to our awareness of same sex beauty.

Where did I say that this "defines you" in my mind. If you are gay or a woman you have to put up with far worse generalisations all your life. I make one fairly innocuous generalisation about straight men and they act mega offended and grab their pitchforks. Be glad that you are living in a patriarchal system, which means you don't have to put up with this more often. What a bunch of ninnies !


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## silverfish (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> Line up in the "outraged of Urban" queue behind Johnny Canuck then. There are several straight men who said they can't tell a beautiful man on this very thread, so why should I pretend this isn't the case and say "we are all the same" when it comes to our awareness of same sex beauty.
> 
> Where did I say that this "defines you" in my mind. If you are gay or a woman you have to put up with far worse generalisations all your life. I make one fairly innocuous generalisation about straight men and they act mega offended and grab their pitchforks. Be glad that you are living in a patriarchal system, which means you don't have to put up with this more often. What a bunch of ninnies !


 
so as an oppressed minority you have licence just to spout shite and not be at least disagreed with.

I'm not in the slightest bit outraged but if i proclaimed "all gay men.....XYZ" I'd be shot down in flames pretty fucking quickly


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## Louloubelle (Oct 3, 2012)

Melissa Leo in Frozen River was stunningly beautiful IMO but not in a conventional way. Her performance was incredible, a real woman playing a real woman.



eta

by real woman I mean a 3 dimensional person who is not afraid to show wrinkles and imperfections as opposed to botoxed dolls out there.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> FFS, you sure are a whiny, old twat.


Poor baybae.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive..


 
As a gay man, are you attracted to a lot of women?

Maybe you're not as gay as you think?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

[quote="Reno, post: 11570305, member: 23288"
Women are very aware of the looks of other women, otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of magazines exploiting the insecurities resulting from that..[/quote]

Given that a similar such industry doesn't exist to exploit male insecurities arising from their awareness of the attractiveness of other men, then maybe what some straight men have been asserting here, isn't as preposterous as you'd have us think.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> As a gay man I know exactly what men and women I find attractive. I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of conventionally handsome men in films and on TV.


 
What utter bollocks.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> Line up in the "outraged of Urban" queue behind Johnny Canuck then.


 
I'm not outraged. Just a bit amused by your generalizations and preconceptions about straight men.


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## Metal Malcolm (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> Women are very aware of the looks of other women, otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of magazines exploiting the insecurities resulting from that.


 
And yet I know plenty of straight women who have told me that they don't think X woman is attractive, only for me to disagree hugely. Hmmm....maybe it's all subjective eh?

And for the record, I think the vast majority of men and women mentioned on this thread are or have been attractive at some point. The only 'non-attractive' actress who gets regular work that I can think of is Kathy Burke, and she's so awesome i'd still rather spend time with her than most of those mentioned above.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I make one fairly innocuous generalisation about straight men and they act mega offended


 
No. I pointed out that if a similar 'innocuous' generalization was made by a straight person about a gay person, people _would_ be grabbing their pitchforks, and you'd be in the front of the crowd with a torch.


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## silverfish (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> [quote="Reno, post: 11570305, member: 23288"
> Women are very aware of the looks of other women, otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of magazines exploiting the insecurities resulting from that..


 
*Given that a similar such industry doesn't exist to exploit male insecurities arising from their awareness of the attractiveness of other men*, then maybe what some straight men have been asserting here, isn't as preposterous as you'd have us think.[/quote]

Yuo don't have mens health mags where you are


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2012)

I can appreciate male beauty just the same as female beauty. There's a difference between awareness of beauty and attraction, I don't ever find myself wanting to fuck a Cézanne painting or a wild orchid for example. Even with women what I consider beautiful and what I find attractive are totally different.

For me at least, attractiveness doesn't have a lot to do with looks, or rather its visual component is more based on movement and expression than on the raw material so to speak.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

silverfish said:


> *Given that a similar such industry doesn't exist to exploit male insecurities arising from their awareness of the attractiveness of other men*, then maybe what some straight men have been asserting here, isn't as preposterous as you'd have us think.


 
Yuo don't have mens health mags where you are[/quote]

Yeah, but the men's health mag business is a tiny fraction of the women's fashion industry, Vogue magazine, Cosmo Magazine, Elle Magazine etc etc etc. There's nothing on a similar scale catering to men.


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## lefteri (Oct 3, 2012)

> I don't know the straight men who said they can't tell what a beautiful man looks like on on this thread.


 
Nor do I

Women are very aware of the looks of other women, otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of magazines exploiting the insecurities resulting from that. Maybe you meant that you don't agree with their tastes ?

No I didn't - There is also a whole industry of magazines, film, televisions, the internet and newspapers which exploits heterosexual men's insecurities and at least a proportion of these are aesthetic & to do with their bodies - why do you think straight men go to the gym?

What does your statement that many straight men you know feel comfortable in "mixed and gay clubs and bars" have to do with anything ? 

Because men in mixed & gays bars and clubs are generally better presented physical specimens than in heterosexual bars & clubs and in order to feel comfortable in the former I would posit that straight men have to feel comfortable with male attractiveness, recognise it and not have hang ups about it

BTW I don't think the fact that many straight men can't tell what a beautiful man looks like has anything to do with homophobia and didn't say so anywhere

I don't necessarily either but you brought your sexuality into the argument, why was that?


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## prunus (Oct 3, 2012)

pogofish said:


> Have a look at Lotte Lenya in her heyday, not at the very end of her career:


 
Hubba hubba


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## lefteri (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Given that a similar such industry doesn't exist to exploit male insecurities arising from their awareness of the attractiveness of other men, then maybe what some straight men have been asserting here, isn't as preposterous as you'd have us think.


 
I'm afraid you're just plain wrong Johnny, open your eyes


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## youngian (Oct 3, 2012)

Always admired performers who could do it all. An underatted actress for this is Joan Sims. While her colleagues did the same archetypes, Joan Sims could do sexy, old battleaxe and mumsy roles. A male example was Peter Cushing; dashing handsome hero, some very nasty villians, doddery academic and kindly uncle.


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## 8ball (Oct 3, 2012)

lefteri said:


> I'm afraid you're just plain wrong Johnny, open your eyes


 
You're right about an equivalent industry's existence, Johnny is right about the massive difference in extent.


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## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2012)

Reno said:


> I think women also can tell both. I find it weird that only straight men apparently can't tell what a beautiful man looks like and I think this thread comes from someone being a little blinkered about the fact that there are loads of conventionally handsome men in films and on TV.


 
I've always struggled with this. I have absolutely no idea of what makes a bloke good looking. Unless the comparison is *totally* obvious i.e. Brad Pitt (I only know he's hot because other people say so) v Shane McGowan (obvious), I wouldn't have a clue, and I frequently ask female or gay mates if "so-and-so bloke" is attractive.


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## 8ball (Oct 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> I've always struggled with this. I have absolutely no idea of what makes a bloke good looking. Unless the comparison is *totally* obvious i.e. Brad Pitt (I only know he's hot because other people say so) v Shane McGowan (obvious), I wouldn't have a clue, and I frequently ask the females if "so-and-so bloke" is attractive.


 
I think women are quite individual about what they personally like, but there seems to be a general standard based on basic geometry.


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## Metal Malcolm (Oct 3, 2012)

I'd say that whoever you are, however much you may think you understand who is or isn't 'attractive', you can always be blindsided by someone else's tastes.

Nothing like working in an office full of women to bring out the 'What, SIMON COWELL? *REALLY*?' reaction


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## Greebo (Oct 3, 2012)

Metal Malcolm said:


> I'd say that whoever you are, however much you may think you understand who is or isn't 'attractive', you can always be blindsided by someone else's tastes.
> 
> Nothing like working in an office full of women to bring out the 'What, SIMON COWELL? *REALLY*?' reaction


Fair dos, I've yet to work out what all the fuss about Mel Gibson was.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2012)

Metal Malcolm said:


> I'd say that whoever you are, however much you may think you understand who is or isn't 'attractive', you can always be blindsided by someone else's tastes.reaction


 
Taste is different.

If you were to ask me who I find more attractive out of Beyonce Knowles and Megan Fox, who are both beautiful women, I'd say Beyonce with very little hesitation, though others may disagree. But if you asked me to compare pretty much ANY two guys I wouldn't know where to begin.

Furthermore I couldn't tell you what makes a guy "conventionally" good looking so in most cases couldn't tell you if 'xxxx geezer' is attractive *at all*.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 3, 2012)

I can tell when a man is good looking, like the pretty boys are easy, the don draper handsome types are easy too, its the fan fare over the likes of Gerard Butler, Daniel Craig (never a Bond!) and the oddest of the lot Gordan Ramsey that baffles me.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2012)

revol68 said:


> I can tell when a man is good looking, like the pretty boys are easy, the don draper handsome types are easy too, its the fan fare over the likes of Gerard Butler, Daniel Craig (never a Bond!) and the oddest of the lot Gordan Ramsey that baffles me.


 
Women like a bit of rough.

Thank fuck.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2012)

So Ramsay is considered physically attractive?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> So Ramsay is considered physically attractive?



I know, utterly mental, i think madusa said she fancied him!

Weirdo.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> So Ramsay is considered physically attractive?


 
By a surprising number of women.

The fact that he's a foulmouthed aggressive bellend works wonders too (see Russell Crowe).


----------



## revol68 (Oct 3, 2012)

And anyone man, beast or mineral who says they cant see how the guy who played Pip in last years BBC's Great Expectations is beautiful is a liar!


----------



## billy_bob (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No. I pointed out that if a similar 'innocuous' generalization was made by a straight person about a gay person, people _would_ be grabbing their pitchforks, and you'd be in the front of the crowd with a torch.


 
You're not stupid or a troll, so I imagine if you stop long enough to think this through, it might dawn on you that similar 'innocuous' generalisations are made by straight people about gay people almost unceasingly - so arguing by analogy as you're doing is meaningless because the context is vastly different.

Personally, I (a straight man) don't think Reno's generalisation applies to me - I'm perfectly able to judge the attractiveness of members of both sexes if I chose to. But as a generalisation I think it's probably fairly valid. And I'm not going to go off whining about how he said a mean thing about us straight men and it's not fair because we can't say anything backwithout the politically correct brigade jumping down our throats. If you're going to carry the banner for straight men, you may need to 'man up' a bit.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2012)

revol68 said:


> And anyone man, beast or mineral who says they cant see how the guy who played Pip in last years BBC's Great Expectations is beautiful is a liar!


 
Like Jude Law's feminine features grafted onto Brad Pitt's sledgehammer skull - sure some people will like that but I don't think he would be to everyone's taste.


----------



## Reno (Oct 3, 2012)

silverfish said:


> *Given that a similar such industry doesn't exist to exploit male insecurities arising from their awareness of the attractiveness of other men*, then maybe what some straight men have been asserting here, isn't as preposterous as you'd have us think.
> 
> Yuo don't have mens health mags where you are


 
Sorry, I'm currently too busy at work to keep baiting silly straight boys. 

I'll be back later.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2012)

revol68 said:


> And anyone man, beast or mineral who says they cant see how the guy who played Pip in last years BBC's Great Expectations is beautiful is a liar!


 
He looks like he was created by a focus group. He's also making the sort of face you can only make if far too many people have spent far too long telling you how beautiful you are.

I think this is why I'm not generally attracted to conventionally beautiful people, in our looks-obsessed culture a certain stereotypical form of beauty often goes hand in hand with arrogance and detachment.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Melissa Leo in Frozen River was stunningly beautiful IMO but not in a conventional way. Her performance was incredible, a real woman playing a real woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I read a thing about her once that said that while she was working on _Homicide_ during the storyline where she got shot, they had set up a scene where she would be seen partially naked, and she wrote something like "fuck you" on her skin because of how she felt about the whole thing. I'm sketchy on the details though.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

I find it really bizarre that we're even having to have the conversation about whether standards of beauty and what people find attractive or not is subjective.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Metal Malcolm said:


> I'd say that whoever you are, however much you may think you understand who is or isn't 'attractive', you can always be blindsided by someone else's tastes.
> 
> Nothing like working in an office full of women to bring out the 'What, SIMON COWELL? *REALLY*?' reaction


 
Even  better is sitting with a table of women who are discussing Mick Jagger's looks.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Taste is different.
> 
> If you were to ask me who I find more attractive out of Beyonce Knowles and Megan Fox, who are both beautiful women, I'd say Beyonce with very little hesitation, though others may disagree. But if you asked me to compare pretty much ANY two guys I wouldn't know where to begin.
> 
> Furthermore I couldn't tell you what makes a guy "conventionally" good looking so in most cases couldn't tell you if 'xxxx geezer' is attractive *at all*.


 
Megan Fox all the way.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

revol68 said:


> And anyone man, beast or mineral who says they cant see how the guy who played Pip in last years BBC's Great Expectations is beautiful is a liar!


 
In that photo, he's certainly effeminate looking. Is that's what's meant by a man being beautiful?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> Personally, I (a straight man) don't think Reno's generalisation applies to me - I'm perfectly able to judge the attractiveness of members of both sexes if I chose to. .


 
Rank these men in order of hotness: Mick Jagger, Gordon Ramsay, Simon Cowell, Ted Nugent.

Rank these women: Madonna, Beyonce, Kim Kardashian, Emma Bunton.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Rank these men in order of hotness: Mick Jagger, Gordon Ramsay, Simon Cowell, Ted Nugent.
> 
> Rank these women: Madonna, Beyonce, Kim Kardashian, Emma Bunton.


 
No idea with the blokes.

Beyonce, Kim, Madonna, Emma.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 3, 2012)

armchair manarchists


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> No idea with the blokes.
> 
> Beyonce, Kim, Madonna, Emma.


 
I'd go Kardashian, Madonna, Bunton, Beyonce. I find Beyonce's looks to be a bit plastic.

I'm interested in seeing billy bob's 'hot man' ranking.


----------



## Espresso (Oct 3, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> He looks like he was created by a focus group.


 
That's very well put. That's _exactly_ what he looks like. 

It's all completely subjective, though. As a fr instance, I think Michel Roux Junior is completely drop dead gorgeous. My pal thinks he looks like the moths have been at him.


----------



## ajk (Oct 4, 2012)

Metal Malcolm said:


> I'd say that whoever you are, however much you may think you understand who is or isn't 'attractive', you can always be blindsided by someone else's tastes.
> 
> Nothing like working in an office full of women to bring out the 'What, SIMON COWELL? *REALLY*?' reaction



My ex-manager was obsessed with Danny Dyer.  Still can't quite get my head round that.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 4, 2012)

ajk said:


> My ex-manager was obsessed with Danny Dyer. Still can't quite get my head round that.


 
he's got the cute, cheeky, wide boy thing, well that and the fact he is a total LEG-END!


----------



## billy_bob (Oct 4, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Rank these men in order of hotness: Mick Jagger, Gordon Ramsay, Simon Cowell, Ted Nugent.
> 
> Rank these women: Madonna, Beyonce, Kim Kardashian, Emma Bunton.


 
For what it's worth: the men in the order you've typed them, though the last two are almost off-the-scale revolting. I wouldn't touch Ramsay with yours either to be honest but that's more because he seems like a cunt, but I concede he's a certain kind of attractive. The women, I don't know what Kim Kardashian looks like and I can't be bothered googling, otherwise Beyonce, Bunton, Madonna.

I have no idea what you're trying to prove. I found the women much harder to rank than the men, because you chose three whose looks I don't find very interesting. But that's neither here nor there - my original point (that Reno's generalisation is fine and not a demonstration of how put-upon us poor straight guys are these days) is not in any way dependent on my own tastes in either gender.

However, If you're waiting to see whether I "get it right", I retract my earlier statement - you are stupid.

e2a: Not sure about your puerile 'hot man' comment either - ranking them doesn't necessarily mean I think any of them are hot. If you are seeking some kind of bi-carious thrill mind, I wouldn't have minded a bit of Jagger if he was 30 years younger. And, you know, had a bath and check-up at the clinic first....


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> The women, I don't know what Kim Kardashian looks like and I can't be bothered googling, otherwise Beyonce, Bunton, Madonna.
> 
> I have no idea what you're trying to prove. I found the women much harder to rank than the men, because you chose three whose looks I don't find very interesting. ...


 
That's the whole point. You know Jagger has some sort of interest. You can't really rate the others.

A hetero male can always provide a ranking of a group of three or four women. It's almost a pastime for some.

"If I held a gun to your head and you had to, rank the order in which you would"... that sort of teenage thing.


eta: Kim Kardashian with Kanye West:


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> e2a: Not sure about your puerile 'hot man' comment either - ranking them doesn't necessarily mean I think any of them are hot. ...


 
The issue is, are straight men able to judge the hotness of other males?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> . And, you know, had a bath and check-up at the clinic first....


 
If you had your druthers, which soap would he use: Irish Spring; or Ivory Snow?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2012)

God you are boring


----------



## revol68 (Oct 4, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's the whole point. You know Jagger has some sort of interest. You can't really rate the others.
> 
> A hetero male can always provide a ranking of a group of three or four women. It's almost a pastime for some.
> 
> ...


 
That's quite a beard Kanye is sporting.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> God you are boring


----------



## Greebo (Oct 4, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


>


Is that the best you can do? Really?


----------



## Gromit (Oct 4, 2012)

This is the most attractive woman in the world.






But i'm judging using this as a guide:


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2012)

Explain! Who's the lady at the top?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 4, 2012)

Gromit said:


> This is the most attractive woman in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
LOL


----------



## revol68 (Oct 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Explain! Who's the lady at the top?


 
Aussie mining magnate, richest women in the world, thinks workers should work harder for less and stop drinking.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 4, 2012)

As my mate says you can be minging and the lead singer and the girls will still flock, boys on the otherhand don't care about that shit, they'll be flocking round the merch stall rather than the dressing room if the girl on it is hotter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 4, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Is that the best you can do? Really?


----------



## Firky (Oct 5, 2012)

Women flock?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

firky said:


> Women flock?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 5, 2012)

firky said:


> Women flock?


 
He's had more than you've had wanks!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

The question is this: how did women feel about the Bieb after he threw up on stage?


----------



## Firky (Oct 5, 2012)

Roosevelt got shot and carried on with his speech, puking is nothing.


----------



## Reno (Oct 5, 2012)

firky said:


> Women flock?


 
I have two good female friends who really fancy him.


----------



## Firky (Oct 5, 2012)

I'd be gay for him truth be told.


----------



## billy_bob (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's the whole point. You know Jagger has some sort of interest. You can't really rate the others.


 
No, that's you missing the point.  I did rate them.


----------



## billy_bob (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The issue is, are straight men able to judge the hotness of other males?


 
That's not the issue I originally responded to, which was, is Reno being offensive to straight men by suggesting that in general they can't judge attractiveness of other men.  You seemed to agree with the fact that they can't, but seemed to be in some kind of sulk because you're 'not allowed' to make comparable generalisations about gay men.  I simply responded that (1) you are, (2) straight men do all the time, so stop whining and (3) whilst I'm a straight man who feels he is able to make a subjective judgement about the attractiveness of other men, I don't see anything wrong or untrue about Reno's comment.  Your response to _that_ seems frankly a bit adolescent - sniggering about hot men and posting pictures of people with fruit on their heads....


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 5, 2012)

Was the point really that straight men can't judge other men's attractiveness? I took it as an allusion to the number of men who will loudly proclaim that they can't (because they're just so incredibly straight presumably) tbh.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 5, 2012)

firky said:


> Women flock?


I so wouldn't.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> eta: Kim Kardashian with Kanye West:


 
Why does Kanye West always look so angry? Is he angry because Kanye West murdered hip hop? I know I am.


----------



## billy_bob (Oct 5, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Was the point really that straight men can't judge other men's attractiveness? I took it as an allusion to the number of men who will loudly proclaim that they can't (because they're just so incredibly straight presumably) tbh.


 
Maybe.  Maybe I'm just not that incredibly straight (obviously I'm over-compensating in other ways like growing a beard, wearing a fair bit of plaid and frequently chopping wood).  Though JC seemed to take the comment on surface value, acknowledge that he can't, then object to the fact that a gay man said it.


----------



## Firky (Oct 5, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Was the point really that straight men can't judge other men's attractiveness? I took it as an allusion to the number of men who will loudly proclaim that they can't (because they're just so incredibly straight presumably) tbh.


 
Puff.


----------



## Dandred (Oct 5, 2012)

Do porn actresses count?

If not, why not?


----------



## Reno (Oct 5, 2012)

Dandred said:


> Do porn actresses count?
> 
> If not, why not?


 
Why wouldn't they count ? Porn is a whole industry based on fetishising certain looks.

But then you get a whole range of looks catering to niche markets, which ranges from glamorous dolly birds to "shaven granny"


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 5, 2012)

firky said:


> Puff.



Well, someone has to be around to make johnny look like the towering collosus of undiluted heterosexualuality he no doubt is.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> seemed to be in some kind of sulk because you're 'not allowed' to make comparable generalisations about gay men. I simply responded that (1) you are, (2) straight men do all the time, so stop whining and (3) whilst I'm a straight man who feels he is able to make a subjective judgement about the attractiveness of other men, I don't see anything wrong or untrue about Reno's comment. Your response to _that_ seems frankly a bit adolescent - sniggering about hot men and posting pictures of people with fruit on their heads....


 

I'm not interested in making bullshit generalizations about gay men.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> Maybe. Maybe I'm just not that incredibly straight (obviously I'm over-compensating in other ways like growing a beard, wearing a fair bit of plaid .


 
Round these parts, most guys who look like that, frequent bars with names like The Fountainhead, and Pumpjack's.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

billy_bob said:


> No, that's you missing the point. I did rate them.


 
You didn't, though. You said something like Jagger was hot, but you just weren't that interested in the other three to know.

Rating for our purposes means putting them in an ascending or descending list of preference.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You didn't, though. You said something like Jagger was hot, but you just weren't that interested in the other three to know.
> 
> Rating for our purposes means putting them in an ascending or descending list of preference.


 
He did. Go back and read his response.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> He did. Go back and read his response.


 
Who did he rate higher: Ted Nugent, or Simon Cowell?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2012)

So Johnny, who would you rather bang, Steve McQueen or Steve McQueen?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> So Johnny, who would you rather bang, Steve McQueen or Steve McQueen?


 
I think they cremated him.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2012)

We're talking hypothetically, silly.

Anyway only Steve McQueen is dead.
Steve McQueen is still alive.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Who did he rate higher: Ted Nugent, or Simon Cowell?


 
The answer is in his reply.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> The answer is in his reply.


 
And the answer was?

I'm guessing he thought Nugent was hotter than Cowell.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> And the answer was?
> 
> I'm guessing he thought Nugent was hotter than Cowell.


 
Goodness, I'll quote him for you, johnny, since you appear to have lost the ability to find things for yourself.



> For what it's worth: the men in the order you've typed them, though the last two are almost off-the-scale revolting.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 5, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Goodness, I'll quote him for you, johnny, since you appear to have lost the ability to find things for yourself.


 
Thanks: I missed that. 

Which goes back to my original question: how do you choose between Ted Nugent and Simon Cowell?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Thanks: I missed that.
> 
> Which goes back to my original question: how do you choose between Ted Nugent and Simon Cowell?


Easy - get both of them to stand 3' in front of you and let each of them speak for one minute.  Whichever one ends up coated with the least vomit wins.  You'd better be suitably impressed as typing that with just one hand took bloody ages.


----------



## Hellsbells (Oct 6, 2012)

revol68 said:


> And anyone man, beast or mineral who says they cant see how the guy who played Pip in last years BBC's Great Expectations is beautiful is a liar!


 
I don't find him beautiful, and i'm not a liar! Everything about him irritates me and makes me want to slap him. It's like he's not even human. Clearly, he's not 'unattractive', but I certainly don't find men who look like this remotely 'attractive'.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

What have you got against top hats and cravats?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I don't find him beautiful, and i'm not a liar! Everything about him irritates me and makes me want to slap him. It's like he's not even human. Clearly, he's not 'unattractive', but I certainly don't find men who look like this remotely 'attractive'.


I know what you mean - it's like the difference between Ioan Gruffudd (as Hornblower) and Sean Bean in the earlier Sharpe episodes.  The first looks like a boy, the second is a man.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> What have you got against top hats and cravats?


Nothing, on the right people.  Pretty boys aren't the right people by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Nothing, on the right people. Pretty boys aren't the right people by any stretch of the imagination.


 
Brian Molko pulls it off quite well I think.

Can't find a decent pic where he doesn't look like a complete teenage twat however


----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Brian Molko pulls it off quite well I think.<snip>


So you say.  If I have a type, he isn't it.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

I am not really sure what my type is, it has changed as I have got older. Still hate girly girls which are all pink and precious. Blurgh!


----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> I am not really sure what my type is, it has changed as I have got older. Still hate girly girls which are all pink and precious. Blurgh!


You'd love my future sister in law then, in her late 30s and still really into pink.  And sparkles.  Just saying.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

I know a lass the same, an estate agent - got a car for work (paid for by work) and she was angry because it wasn't a "girl's colour" whatever that is.

Nice enough lass but f'ing hell...


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

is this one of those times where we find out that 'attractiveness' is subjective ?


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

I think we can all agree I am filthy gorgeous.


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

goes without saying


----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> I think we can all agree I am filthy gorgeous.


Passable.  I wouldn't kick you out of bed, because you wouldn't be there in the first place.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)




----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


>


You're also too young!


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You're also too young!


 
Nah.....


*rubs thighs*


----------



## Reno (Oct 6, 2012)

revol68 said:


> And anyone man, beast or mineral who says they cant see how the guy who played Pip in last years BBC's Great Expectations is beautiful is a liar!


 
This demonstrates that there is a difference between what is considered conventionally beautiful and what an individual is attracted to then. He is not what I would go for either, but I can still see that he is someone who would be considered beautiful. The same would go for Tom Cruise for me. I can see why he's beautiful, but I find him boring looking. I prefer more edgy looking men. The same for me goes for women. For instance I can see why Angelina Jolie is considered beautiful, but she's not what I find appealing. My ideal of feminine beauty would be a young Charlotte Rampling. I'd also take Lauren Bacall over Elizabeth Taylor. I can see why many people considered Taylor the most beautiful woman in the world in the 50s, but she's not my "type" when it comes to women, even if I have no interest in sleeping with a woman.

That's why I find it "weird" why so many heterosexual men would have this aesthetic disconnect, when all the other four options, gay and straight women and gay men can generally tell. (as several straight men have admitted on this forum, so it's not something I'm making it up) And I genuinely don't know if it is something they just claim, because that's what they are conditioned to say or if they really are that aesthetically illiterate that they can't tell what physical attributes are considered beautiful in a man. You just have to look at art and advertising to get an education in what a society considers beautiful. And that has nothing to do with having to personally find someone "hot" as that then rather hysterically gets twisted by Johnny Cannuck into "straight men can't tell what men are "hot", implying that I said he is a lesser human being because he "doesn't fancy men". Because there is no bole like hyperbole.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 6, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> Nah.....
> 
> 
> *rubs thighs*


Maybe not too young to drool over, but too young for me too not feel uneasy if doing more than that.


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

As i said it's subjective...............

i find it weird, for instance, that people have 'types'


----------



## Reno (Oct 6, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> As i said it's subjective...............
> 
> i find it weird, for instance, that people have 'types'


 
You don't have any particular turn ons and turn offs and preferences then ? Do you find everybody equally attractive ?


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

Reno said:


> You don't have any particular turn ons and turn offs and preferences then ? Do you find everybody equally attractive ?


 
no but i've known people that only go for specific 'types'...........don't find everyone equally attractive no but i don't have a 'type' in particular......and this is just about aesthetics ?  what makes someone attractive in reality is much more complex than just their appearance......well for me anyhoo

examples (obviously only famous types)




















could go on.......


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2012)

I feel the same, mentalchik. Tall Amazonian women? You betcha! Small dark women? Them too! Medium blonde women with big noses? Righty ho! Brunettes with button noses? Yay! Curly hair! Gimme gimme! Straight hair? Let's go!


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Can we just not use this thread as a sly way to post loads of pics of top totty for everyone to judge? Amy Pond and the doctor of filth, Alice Roberts? 



Greebo said:


> Maybe not too young to drool over, but too young for me too not feel uneasy if doing more than that.


 
Do keep objectifying the pair of you though, it's ace when you're feeling like a patchwork doll


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> could go on.......


 
He looks like Dubv there sans burrito.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Missy Elliot


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> As i said it's subjective...............
> 
> i find it weird, for instance, that people have 'types'


 
As I said earlier I am not sure if I have a type but I know what I don't like (cocks, am more of a fanny person).

Penolpe Pit Stop, no thanks. Sarah Connor and Ripley, yes please.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 6, 2012)

Can't say I really have a 'type' - certainly as to regard looks/physical anyway. I've had past relationships with women (inc. trans women), men, and now in one with a (trans) man. They have all been attractive to me in differing ways.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 6, 2012)

steph said:


> Can't say I really have a 'type' - certainly as to regard looks/physical anyway. I've had past relationships with women (inc. trans women), men, and now in one with a (trans) man. They have all been attractive to me in differing ways.


 
Pansexuals,  people who find people attractive for being the person they are. I suspect there's more of us than many would initially realise


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## stethoscope (Oct 6, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Pansexuals, people who find people attractive for being the person they are. I suspect there's more of us than many would initially realise


 
The non-physical - outlook/belief, character/personality, and of course mutual love/respect has always been the critical and winning ingredient. That said, it doesn't mean to say I don't find physical qualities in those people I've been with attractive, just not solely defining.


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## billy_bob (Oct 6, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:
			
		

> Rating for our purposes means putting them in an ascending or descending list of preference.


 


Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Who did he rate higher: Ted Nugent, or Simon Cowell?


 



			
				billy_bob said:
			
		

> For what it's worth: the men in the order you've typed them


 
Sorry JC. Post-reading fail.


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## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

steph said:


> The non-physical - outlook/belief, character/personality, and of course mutual love/respect has always been the critical and winning ingredient. That said, it doesn't mean to say I don't find physical qualities in those people I've been with attractive, just not solely defining.


 
Good taste in music, films, books and being open minded is important to me moreso than looks. But there are certainly traits, I don't like women who are taller than me (I am only 5'11"). Once went out with a girl who was taller than me with heals on and I felt like her kid brother


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 6, 2012)

There's differences, I suppose. Looking at a picture of someone and finding them physically pleasing and attractive, and then the things that make you want to actually spend time with a person - whether that time is just spent fucking or not. For some, I guess being physically pleasing plays a factor in the latter too, but when you look at couples, wandering around tesco, walking down the street, by my own standards of what I think is aesthetically pleasing, it seems clear that beauty isn't necessarily what makes us all end up together.


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## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Pansexuals, people who find people attractive for being the person they are. I suspect there's more of us than many would initially realise


 
well quite, don't matter how pretty they are if the person is ugly.............it's got to be the whole package for me


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## mentalchik (Oct 6, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> There's differences, I suppose. Looking at a picture of someone and finding them physically pleasing and attractive, and then the things that make you want to actually spend time with a person - whether that time is just spent fucking or not. For some, I guess being physically pleasing plays a factor in the latter too, but when you look at couples, wandering around tesco, walking down the street, by my own standards of what I think is aesthetically pleasing, it seems clear that beauty isn't necessarily what makes us all end up together.


 
spot on


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## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> There's differences, I suppose. Looking at a picture of someone and finding them physically pleasing and attractive, and then the things that make you want to actually spend time with a person - whether that time is just spent fucking or not. For some, I guess being physically pleasing plays a factor in the latter too, but when you look at couples, wandering around tesco, walking down the street, by my own standards of what I think is aesthetically pleasing, it seems clear that beauty isn't necessarily what makes us all end up together.


 
QFTW.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> only 5'11"


 
Only? _Only_? That's considerably taller than average.


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## ska invita (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Missy Elliot


think you can handle this badonk-a-donk-donk?


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## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Only? _Only_? That's considerably taller than average.


 
Is it? I thought it was about average.

One of my friends is over 7ft and 25+ stone of solid muscle. Doesn't work out or anything, just one of those blokes who is fucking huge.


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## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

ska invita said:


> think you can handle this badonk-a-donk-donk?


 
Taglined


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## ska invita (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Taglined


Boys, boys, all type of boys
Black, white, Puerto Rican, Geordie boys


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I don't find him beautiful, and i'm not a liar! Everything about him irritates me and makes me want to slap him. It's like he's not even human. Clearly, he's not 'unattractive', but I certainly don't find men who look like this remotely 'attractive'.


 
Bingo. The guy looks silly.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

Reno said:


> You just have to look at art and advertising to get an education in what a society considers beautiful. And that has nothing to do with having to personally find someone "hot" as that then rather hysterically gets twisted by Johnny Cannuck into "straight men can't tell what men are "hot", implying that I said he is a lesser human being because he "doesn't fancy men". Because there is no bole like hyperbole.


 
What society holds up as ideals of beauty is something different from what is 'hot' to a person.

Yes, Reno, straight men can name off the men that society holds out as good looking or beautiful. Yes, we know the list includes the Calvin Klein models. We know about Paul Newman, Steve McQueen. I could have told you that Tom Cruise is on that list - but unlike you, I wouldn't describe him as beautiful. I don't see him that way.

Hotness isn't about that. Hotness is about what stirs your loins. Hotness can come at you from any direction at any time, in the most unexpected of people.

Which is why I gave billy the list that I did. Who is hotter of Simon Cowell or Ted Nugent? I can't tell, because neither stirs my loins. As for how they look, I believe that both became famous for their talents and abilities, so neither falls into the societal standard for male good looks.

Bacall, Rampling, Lana Turner etc, are just the flip side of the Newmans and the Cruises. How about Kirstie Alley?


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## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

I'd shag JC2.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 6, 2012)

I've always thought Kirstie Alley was hot.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

Reno said:


> implying that I said he is a lesser human being because he "doesn't fancy men". Because there is no bole like hyperbole.


 
What I said was that it's not on making blanket generalizations and calling a group 'weird'. You're the first one to bring up 'lesser human being'.

Because of the competitiveness, I think that most straight men see the potential faults with another man, first. So when I look at Steve McQueen, I see someone who looks sullen and cranky.  Robert Redford looks too boyish, and a little immature. Tom Cruise looks like a passive/aggressive jerk whose mouth is perpetually open. The only big-name actor who I don't find fault with his looks or manner, is George Clooney.Maybe it's because he's good looking, but still able to be self-effacing.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> He looks like Dubv there sans burrito.


 
Who is that chubby fellow?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Good taste in music, films, books and being open minded is important to me moreso than looks.


 
Yes? Tell me more.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> I'd shag JC2.


 
I'd be flattered, except I already know that you'd shag a knothole during spring runoff.


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## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes? Tell me more.


 
It's funny you should mention CK models in your earlier post, I lived with one but didn't find her in the remotest bit attractive even though I recognised she was hot. She just didn't ignite a spark.



Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Who is that chubby fellow?


 
Ray Winstone, quite a good actor.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> It's funny you should mention CK models in your earlier post, I lived with one but didn't find her in the remotest bit attractive even though I recognised she was hot. She just didn't ignite a spark.
> 
> 
> 
> Ray Winstone, quite a good actor.


 
Our neighbor back at the old place was a model; he'd done CK underwear ads. Nice guy. Super religious.


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