# Immigrants must learn "the British language"



## niclas (Nov 2, 2005)

We all know how easy it is to confuse British with English in terms of national identity - they seem to be interchangeable for many of our friends across the Dyke.

Now that confusion seems to spreading to language. The immigration and citizenship minister, Tony McNulty, told yesterday's Guardian (www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,,1605907,00.html) that the new British nationality test should be rigorous.

Let's hope it's more rigorous and accurate than the minister. He went on to say: "An understanding of the British language and our way of life is vital."

Given that he belongs to a government that regularly trumpets English-only health and education reforms as being "across the country" or "nationwide" without defining which nation or country, it's not really surprising.


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## Belushi (Nov 2, 2005)

> "An understanding of the British language and our way of life is vital."



I think he's just saying all immigrants need to learn Welsh or Cornish, a policy I fully support


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## fanta (Nov 2, 2005)

It is disgraceful.

Just exactly why can't the Civil Service, NHS, Police, Courts, Schools, Universities, Housing Authorites & Transport Systems and all the people that run them be fluent in Hindi, Urdu, Arabic, Bengali, Polish & Russian, as well as any other language that is a first language for immigrants to this country, is an utter mystery to me!

Typical British - and by that I mean _English_ (spit!!!), obviously - fucking lazyness!


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## lewislewis (Nov 2, 2005)

Shut up. Nic is referring to the incorrect interchangeability of the terms 'English' and 'British', not learning the language itself.


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## Isambard (Nov 2, 2005)

I think it was a slip of the tongue more than anything else but he should use terms more carefully.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> It is disgraceful.
> 
> Just exactly why can't the Civil Service, NHS, Police, Courts, Schools, Universities, Housing Authorites & Transport Systems and all the people that run them be fluent in Hindi, Urdu, Arabic, Bengali, Polish & Russian, as well as any other language that is a first language for immigrants to this country, is an utter mystery to me!
> 
> Typical British - and by that I mean _English_ (spit!!!), obviously - fucking lazyness!



English, Gaelic and Welsh are all recognised for purposes of citizenship in UK PLC. Cornish is not.

Universities correctly demand of both treachers and students that they are literate in the language of the institution in question. Which in usually, but not always, English.

Provision is made by the courts, police and other official bodies for translation services.

More generally it seems only sensible that those living in a country learn that to speak and use the language of that country. It should not be made a precondition of citizenship however.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> It is disgraceful.
> 
> Just exactly why can't the Civil Service, NHS, Police, Courts, Schools, Universities, Housing Authorites & Transport Systems and all the people that run them be fluent in Hindi, Urdu, Arabic, Bengali, Polish & Russian, as well as any other language that is a first language for immigrants to this country, is an utter mystery to me!
> 
> Typical British - and by that I mean _English_ (spit!!!), obviously - fucking lazyness!



English, Gaelic and Welsh are all recognised for purposes of citizenship in UK PLC. Cornish is not.

Universities correctly demand of both treachers and students that they are literate in the language of the institution in question. Which in usually, but not always, English.

Provision is made by the courts, police and other official bodies for translation services.

More generally it seems only sensible that those living in a country learn that to speak and use the language of that country. It should not be made a precondition of citizenship however.


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## Belushi (Nov 2, 2005)

I think it's Illinois where the official language of the state is 'American'


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 2, 2005)

Serious question...do the French/Spanish give Brits a language test when they emigrate to their countries?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> Serious question...do the French/Spanish give Brits a language test when they emigrate to their countries?



No idea. But linguistic chauvinism is by no means unique to UK PLC.

In Spain for example discrimination against non-Castellano dialects of Spainish and related languages such as Catalan was historically far fiercer than anything in UK PLC.

Similar forms of discrimination were and are common in Spainish speaking Latin America against indigenous languages such as Quechua. Ditto Portugese speaking Brazil.


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 2, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> No idea. But linguistic chauvinism is by no means unique to UK PLC.
> 
> In Spain for example discrimination against non-Castellano dialects of Spainish and related languages such as Catalan was historically far fiercer than anything in UK PLC.
> 
> Similar forms of discrimination were and are common in Spainish speaking Latin America against indigenous languages such as Quechua. Ditto Portugese speaking Brazil.



Yes yes there's no denying the facts there. What's their current policy today though? For example, I know the French have very strong laws to protect their language...but do they test immigrants?


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## JWH (Nov 2, 2005)

I think there is a lack of clarity here about immigration vs citizenship. You can have the permanent right to live somewhere without citizenship. FWIW, I can imagine there might be some valid arguments against language testing before giving someone a permanent right to remain in the UK (and it would probably be illegal to do it for immigrants from EU/EEA) (not to mention pointless 99% of the time).

However, if you're talking about citizenship, then I don't think it's unreasonable for a community to expect that people who want to specifically go through that process are able to play an effective role in the wider community. A key part (and a pretty basic effort) is learning the official language (which imo ought to include Gaelic, Welsh + whatever is used in NI. Realistically, it's gonna be English if it's anything (although I read there is a Pakistani-origin family in Shetland that speaks Gaelic).

A quick google says that if you want to acquire French citizenship, you have to have an interview and part of that is designed to test French language skills.

McNulty is, of course, a tube, as we say in the British language.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

JWH said:
			
		

> However, if you're talking about citizenship, then I don't think it's unreasonable for a community to expect that people who want to specifically go through that process are able to play an effective role in the wider community. A key part (and a pretty basic effort) is learning the official language (which imo ought to include Gaelic, Welsh + whatever is used in NI. Realistically, it's gonna be English if it's anything.



As i pointed out earlier for immigration purposes Welsh and Gaelic count exactly the same as English. Immigration in this context clearly beingseen as a step towards full citizenship.

But residency is very different is it not? Thus EU citizens have a right to reside and work in UK PLC. Citizens of the Irish Free State always did come to that. In fact Irish citizens can vote in UK PLC.

Residency however can mean different things elsewhere in the EU. In Spain for example many Brit expats have bought properties and are permanent residents. As a result of this they have the right to vote in local but not national elections while retaining their vote, if registered, in UK PLC. There is no requirement on them to learn Spainish or Catalan I note.

Now the above is all very peculiar and quite wrong. So we arrive at a situation where a tiny handful of Tory voters living in Spain could unseat a democratically elected MP (John Smith Vale of Glam) despite his winning a majority of votes cast by actual working tax paying residents. Not good.

I would suggest that residency is a basic requirement for voting pruposes and that permanent expats should be deprived of the vote in the same manner as tax exiles. I would also suggest that citizenship should not be a requiremtn for voting purposes given that labour is increasingly more mobile as a result of the current stage of capitalist development.

In short I'm saying that British citizens should not have the vote in Britain, if they live elsewhere, but that Polish and Portugese workers should be franchised. Which would be a great step towards both workers power and the abolition of Britain. Both very desirable goals.


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## Japey (Nov 2, 2005)

JWH said:
			
		

> Realistically, it's gonna be English if it's anything (although I read there is a Pakistani-origin family in Shetland that speaks Gaelic).



Theoretically somebody could migrate to North Wales from Welsh Patagonia and then become a citizen without speaking English.

It's a fairly sensible principle though that naturalised British citizens should be able to speak English.  And this has been the law for donkey's years.


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## Japey (Nov 2, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Polish and Portugese workers should be franchised.



Why the rush?  Slow down a little.  It only takes living here five years to become a British citizen - as long as you can speak the language and keep your nose clean.


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## Isambard (Nov 3, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> As a result of this they have the right to vote in local but not national elections while retaining their vote, if registered, in UK PLC. There is no requirement on them to learn Spainish or Catalan I note.



The UK as well as other EU countries allows its citizens to retain their right to vote in NATIONAL (but not local) elections. Long term residents of other EU countries vote "locally", where they are living. But the time limit is 20 years and slowly but surely, Europe has to deal with the fact that it is an entity and people DO move around. Ideally I'd like to see the right to vote anywhere where an adult has lived for a year.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> So we arrive at a situation where a tiny handful of Tory voters living in Spain could unseat a democratically elected MP ............. despite his winning a majority of votes cast by actual working tax paying residents. Not good.



Firstly, it has NOTHING to do with property ownership. RESIDENCE is the key.

IF British Tory retirees to Spain get together and get themselves organised and elect a councillor, fair play to them tbh. They are JUST as much entitled to do that as native born Spanish are allowed to vote PP, PSOE or any other party.

Local councillor in "foreigner" shocker!


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## bendeus (Nov 3, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> It is disgraceful.
> 
> Just exactly why can't the Civil Service, NHS, Police, Courts, Schools, Universities, Housing Authorites & Transport Systems and all the people that run them be fluent in Hindi, Urdu, Arabic, Bengali, Polish & Russian, as well as any other language that is a first language for immigrants to this country, is an utter mystery to me!
> 
> Typical British - and by that I mean _English_ (spit!!!), obviously - fucking lazyness!



Why indeed? 














Cunt


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## neprimerimye (Nov 3, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> The UK as well as other EU countries allows its citizens to retain their right to vote in NATIONAL (but not local) elections. Long term residents of other EU countries vote "locally", where they are living. But the time limit is 20 years and slowly but surely, Europe has to deal with the fact that it is an entity and people DO move around. Ideally I'd like to see the right to vote anywhere where an adult has lived for a year.
> 
> Firstly, it has NOTHING to do with property ownership. RESIDENCE is the key.
> 
> ...



Class not residence is the key.

At present Brit expats domiciled in Spain vote in Spainish local elections AND in British elections. Quite clearly a person cannot live in two places at the same time. The franchise then becomes a matter of claimed residence based on property ownership. This is a massive step back from the bourgeois concept of one person one vote.

Certainly Brit expats on the costas should be entitled to vote in Spainish elections. But they should not be entitled to a second vote that effectively negates the vote of those actually living and working in the Vale of Glamorgan.

As a matter of simple democracy i would suggest that we return to this concept of one person one vote. The franchise should be granted to all adults (16 plus) not incapacitated by reason of imprisonment or mental incapacity. Thus granting the inbred Windsor family the vote except for Charles who is quite clearly incapacitated by reason of mental defect.

I understand all adults to mean literally that. Every adult in Britain at a given time normally resident here regardless of citizenship laws or nationality.


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## tobyjug (Nov 3, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> English, Gaelic and Welsh are all recognised for purposes of citizenship in UK PLC. Cornish is not.
> 
> .



The situation with reguard to Cornish is under review, (pressure from Europe).


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## spring-peeper (Nov 3, 2005)

The ability to communicate in one of the official languages is a requirement for Canadian citizenship.

Imo, the government wants to make sure that the new citizen can understand the laws and any information coming from the government.  

Makes total sense to me.

When I lived in Quebec, the provincial government only communicated in French. 
Although my husband was raised in France and therefore is totally bilingual, even he found it hard to understand what they were on about.


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## Isambard (Nov 3, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Class not residence is the key.
> 
> At present Brit expats domiciled in Spain vote in Spainish local elections AND in British elections. Quite clearly a person cannot live in two places at the same time. The franchise then becomes a matter of claimed residence based on property ownership. This is a massive step back from the bourgeois concept of one person one vote.



Class certainly comes into it and the classic "boo hiss" figure of a wealthy enough upper middle class businessman retiring to the Costa to play golf etc is not likely to win many friends on Urban.   

BUT, the are are a lot of ordinary British Citizens who for one reason or another work smewhere else in the EU. Who you reckon is pulling the pints and cooking the chips in Ye Olde Cymru Pubbe in Torremelinos?

Please note that while some people (the more wealthy) own their place of resdence elsewhere in the EU, renting is a LOT more common that in Britain. The right to vote locally (and for European Parliament) elewhere in the EU is based on residence NOT property ownership.

The regulations have been tightened. You do NOT get 2 votes. A British Citizen living in France votes for local councillors in France and is NOT on the electoral role in Britain for local elections. For Westminster they vote in Britain. For European Palriament they can choose where to vote. It is is nigh impossible to cordinate, so voters have to seen under oath they tthey vote try and vote twice.

EU Citizens CANNOT be forced be competent in any language for residency elsewhere in the EU. Though of course, it makes a LOT of sense to learn the local language(s).

But I agree with your argument of giving the full right to vote of any resident anywhere.


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## niclas (Nov 3, 2005)

*Costa Geriatrica*

neprimerimye: Class not residence is the key.

At present Brit expats domiciled in Spain vote in Spainish local elections AND in British elections. Quite clearly a person cannot live in two places at the same time. The franchise then becomes a matter of claimed residence based on property ownership. This is a massive step back from the bourgeois concept of one person one vote."

You don't have to go to the Costas to find this - holiday home owners in Wales have the same right. They can vote by postal ballot in Wales and in person wherever they live. Who's checking up that they don't?

Students can also have a massive distorting effect on certain constituencies like Cardiff Central, Conwy or Ceredigion - why should they be any more enfranchised than migrant workers from Poland or Portugal?

I'm not sure how this thread became one on nationality and voting - it was meant to be about the imperialist idea that there's such a thing as a British language... "one state, one language"? (and stalinists would no doubt chip in with "one party")


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## Isambard (Nov 3, 2005)

Niclas, it's becasue people go off on related tangents.   

Are holiday home owners really allowed to go on 2 electoral rolls?
I'd say that they shouldn't be.

But I was giving it a bit of a think this morning, that maybe more nationalist disposed politicians and bureaucrats in Wales are worried about immigration from England as it erodes their power base.

As for certain constituencies having a high student population, that happens in England as well. Students are to a certain extent transitory but do they have less right to a vote than a "local"?


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## nwnm (Nov 3, 2005)

"Students can also have a massive distorting effect on certain constituencies like Cardiff Central, Conwy or Ceredigion - why should they be any more enfranchised than migrant workers from Poland or Portugal?" Agreed! Universal sufferage should be just that - everyone (including refugees/asylum seekers) should have the right to vote.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "Students can also have a massive distorting effect on certain constituencies like Cardiff Central, Conwy or Ceredigion - why should they be any more enfranchised than migrant workers from Poland or Portugal?" Agreed! Universal sufferage should be just that - everyone (including refugees/asylum seekers) should have the right to vote.


why?


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## fanta (Nov 3, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Cunt



Is that Welsh for 'bendeus'?


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## Epicurus (Nov 3, 2005)

As a foreigner to this country; I have to say maybe that should be the rule for all Brits wanting to move abroad as well.

To take part in anything you need to understand the language and culture, I have always believed that if you want to move to a new country you MUST learn their language and something about their culture or you will just miss out on everything.

As soon as I decided that I was going to come to the UK to study I spent every spare hour I had learning English, I have never understood the aptitude of people who move to a new country and don’t even know how to say hello.

The result of people like the above can be seen weekly on TV programmes like Living the dream, Grand designs abroad, a place in the sun and all the others.

They all have one thing in common and that is the people who take the time to learn the language get the job done first time and for the right price the others spend months even years fighting to own the land they have brought of trying to make builders understand what they want, I have seen some shockers.

This test is just typical of the UK government a half baked idea only half baked questions and if you can’t speak English you don’t have to take it you just need a tutor to sign that you are learning English and if you fail you can re-sit it as many times as you like, it is worthless and pointless and just more lip service from a government that tinkers a lot but does fuck all.


Who is this pandering to anyway, the only people I have ever heard asking for this kind of test are right wing reactionaries, is the Labour government pandering to the BNP? Anyone with any intelegancy would want to learn the language of the country they were living in, wouldn't they?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 3, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Niclas, it's becasue people go off on related tangents.
> 
> Are holiday home owners really allowed to go on 2 electoral rolls?
> I'd say that they shouldn't be.
> ...



The problem Niclas has is that nationality and the franchise are related. If we are talking of voting for a national legislative then it is not illogical to restrict the fracnhise to the corresponding nationals. Extension of the franchise to all residents will have the tendency to undermine the national basis of said legislative and by extension the nation in question. Which may or may not be a good thing.

As for holiday home owners having two votes this is not the case. It is true that multiple property owners may register in multiple constituencies but they are only allowed one vote. Pretty much all the reseach done on the topic shows that multiple voting and personation are rare. Extension of postal voting, which I deplore, has without doubt drastically changed this situation.

Students will distort results in any given seat but perhaps not to the degree some think. Many students will register at their parental address and vote there for one thing and youth voting is terribly low in any case. Cardiff Central is, or was, statistically the most student seat in the UK.


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## nwnm (Nov 3, 2005)

"why?" Why not?


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## Isambard (Nov 3, 2005)

I think that "citizenship" is shite anyway to a large extent.

A lot of my neighbours aren't citizens, that doesn't make them or their opinions woth less, they still have to pay tax to a state that can't even (partially) tweak via the balot box.   

I do get where you're coming from a little but but why should students "distort" a seat more than unemployed ex miners in Merthyr do as a group? Loads of UK constituencies have their quirks.

Despite the "danger" of students in say Conwy or 2nd home owners in Ceredigion (*) , they still have Plaid Cymru MPs don't they? <- Can't remember exact costituency results, sorry.   

(*) I am against 2nd homes as a rule like.


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## lewislewis (Nov 3, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> But I was giving it a bit of a think this morning, that maybe more nationalist disposed politicians and bureaucrats in Wales are worried about immigration from England as it erodes their power base.



It erodes their power base yes, and our nation, culture, identity and language. People have a right to a nationality. English people should be made to learn Welsh if they have to practically speak it in their new area. They should also be reminded that they're now in Wales, not England. If Wales isnt a nation then fine, but the official UK line is that Wales is a nation, so give us the respect and powers we need and deserve.


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## JWH (Nov 3, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> I have never understood the aptitude of people who move to a new country and don’t even know how to say hello.


It depends what you're talking about: people that are actually immigrating (to live for the rest of their lives) somewhere, or people that are just going to be living there part time, or just for a couple of years.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 3, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> It erodes their power base yes, and our nation, culture, identity and language. People have a right to a nationality. English people should be made to learn Welsh if they have to practically speak it in their new area. They should also be reminded that they're now in Wales, not England. If Wales isnt a nation then fine, but the official UK line is that Wales is a nation, so give us the respect and powers we need and deserve.



People should also have the right not to suffer by being forced to join one or other of the atavistic entities we know as nations.

No one should be forced to learn English or Welsh. If i refuse to learn Welsh should I be jailed?

I am, of course, in favour of Wales becomeing a soveriegn nation IF the people as a whole will it. Waste of time and effort in my personal view but....


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## nwnm (Nov 4, 2005)

"Wales is a nation, so give us the respect" Ah lewislewis....you've finally seen the light! I'll book you some time on George Galloway's sunbed


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## Isambard (Nov 4, 2005)

Double edged sword though innit.

My nephew was born in Somerset but lived in Wales since a baby.
His first language is English but learns Welsh too at playgroup/ school.
He speaks Englsh at home (my brother and sister in law do know some basic Welsh too BTW) though he is encouraged by his parents in his Welsh.

Went to a party down in Pembroke somewhere and the other children there REFUSED to play with him as "HIS WELSH WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH!"   

Where did those children learn that kind of shite?


@LewisLewis, I certainly think people living in Wales should learn Welsh but you cannot "FORCE" them. Illegal under EU law anyway.


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## lewislewis (Nov 4, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "Wales is a nation, so give us the respect" Ah lewislewis....you've finally seen the light! I'll book you some time on George Galloway's sunbed



*walks casually over to the 'men's' section of the Respect meeting, wife respectfully following me a good pace behind*


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## nwnm (Nov 4, 2005)

wot only the one wife? Looks of sympathy abound and the Mormon section mutter under their breaths....


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 4, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> *walks casually over to the 'men's' section of the Respect meeting, wife respectfully following me a good pace behind*



No, I think you would discover that the Wife would be speaking on the platform


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## Ben Bore (Nov 4, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Went to a party down in Pembroke somewhere and the other children there REFUSED to play with him as "HIS WELSH WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH!"
> 
> Where did those children learn that kind of shite?



I can't comment on this as I wasn't invited to the party    , but I can't imagine kids actually saying that - could they not be paranoid or oversensitive?




			
				Isambard said:
			
		

> @LewisLewis, I certainly think people living in Wales should learn Welsh but you cannot "FORCE" them. Illegal under EU law anyway.



There's nothing worse than being forced to speak a language, just asked Mair Stuart from the Vale of Glamorgan, she's in court twice this month.

Firstly she's been summoned to appear at Barry Magistrates on the 22nd for not paying her counciltax until the local authority (Vale of Glamorgan) send her either a Welsh or bilingual form.  This has been going on for 3 years. (the summons was in English only as well by the way!)

This frustration led to Mair being arrested on Monday for taking part in direct action in the name of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.  The police were going to let her off with a caution as long as she signed a form.  Due to an IT problem  there was no Welsh version available, and she refused to sign - now she has to appear in court on the 30th as well.



> Cymdeithas said officers at Cardiff Central police station had intended to release Ms Stuart with a caution. But when she realised the form in front of her was only in English, she refused to sign it, and is due before Cardiff magistrates on November 30 charged with criminal damage.


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## TeeJay (Nov 4, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> ...Let's hope it's more rigorous and accurate than the minister. He went on to say: "An understanding of the British language and our way of life is vital."...


Maybe he deliberately said "British" so that people are free to take the test in Welsh (etc) if they choose to?


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## Isambard (Nov 4, 2005)

Full Support to Mair Stuart like!


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## TeeJay (Nov 4, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Certainly Brit expats on the costas should be entitled to vote in Spainish elections. But they should not be entitled to a second vote that effectively negates the vote of those actually living and working in the Vale of Glamorgan.


They don't get two votes in the same election.

They can vote in Spanish local elections (but not UK local or regional elections). They can vote in UK general elections (but not in Spanish general elections).

They therefore get the same number of votes as everyone else - ie one local (in Spain), one European (in Spain) and one General (in the UK) plus whatever regional/city votes apply to where they live. They don't get any more votes than anyone else.


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## TeeJay (Nov 4, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> ...Extension of the franchise to all residents will have the tendency to undermine the national basis of said legislative and by extension the nation in question. Which may or may not be a good thing...


Would you extend this idea to the following:

Extension of the franchise to all residents will have the tendency to undermine the local basis of said legislative and by extension the local area in question.

Extension of the franchise to all residents will have the tendency to undermine the region/city basis of said legislative and by extension the region/city in question.

Extension of the franchise to all residents will have the tendency to undermine the 'European regional' basis of said legislative and by extension the European region in question.

 

What does this actually mean? Does it even mean anything?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 4, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> What does this actually mean? Does it even mean anything?



It means, deep breath, that IF labour is allowed the same freedom of movement that capital is and is then extended the vote that nation states will be undermined from within. Which may or may not be a good thing. Depends on your point of view.

Look you all I'm doing is putting a very very old fashioned argument for the abolition of all restrictions on the migration of people across artifical borders. And if everybody who wanted to live in britain could and then got to vote it would rather tend to negate any concept of Europe or Britain or Wales would it not?

And yes I think that a very very good idea indeedy.


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## TeeJay (Nov 4, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> It means, deep breath, that IF labour is allowed the same freedom of movement that capital is and is then extended the vote that nation states will be undermined from within. Which may or may not be a good thing. Depends on your point of view.
> 
> Look you all I'm doing is putting a very very old fashioned argument for the abolition of all restrictions on the migration of people across artifical borders. And if everybody who wanted to live in britain could and then got to vote it would rather tend to negate any concept of Europe or Britain or Wales would it not?
> 
> And yes I think that a very very good idea indeedy.


You still haven't explained how this will 'undermine nation states'.

You haven't explained how it would 'negate any concept of Europe or Britian or Wales'.

What are these 'concepts' anyway?

It could in fact be argued that it would actually *strengthen* the nation state (more people would 'buy into' the idea and see themselves as part of it).

You also seem to take it as a given that there is a some kind of static and intrinsic 'concept' (of country/nation X) that will 'negated' by new ideas and/or people.

Again it could be argued that this is a false premise to start with.

You also haven't made any argument in support of 'no boarders'.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 4, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> You still haven't explained how this will 'undermine nation states'.
> 
> You haven't explained how it would 'negate any concept of Europe or Britian or Wales'.
> 
> ...



Good argument.

However I would argue that a national consciousness is a false consciousness in that there is no real shared community within the imagined national communities. I would argue that in fact people migrating from one nation to another will only accept a new alternative national identity if they can be assimilated into the host commubnity.

Which, of course, is more or less what has happened in UK PLC since Windrush. But there is no reason to presume that if labour had the freedom of movement granted to capital that such a process of assimilation could continue without immense fractures developing.

Such fractures would tend to develop along the lines of the real class divisions in society and would potentially enable the development of a revolutionary seizure of power by the working classes.

To close, for me tea like, I submit that it is not possible to define the abstract concepts of 'nation' or Europe as they are purely fictive concepts rooted in history but not in material reality.


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## lewislewis (Nov 5, 2005)

That means nothing, you say the borders are 'artificial', fine, but people still think their Welsh, they have a national consciousness that is currently greater than their class consciousness. Again this may be a good thing or a bad thing, i'm undecided but will pursue whatever consciousness is more legitimate, i.e has a larger mandate amongst public opinion, so long as it corresponds to my personal principles.


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## lewislewis (Nov 5, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> People should also have the right not to suffer by being forced to join one or other of the atavistic entities we know as nations.
> 
> No one should be forced to learn English or Welsh. If i refuse to learn Welsh should I be jailed?
> 
> I am, of course, in favour of Wales becomeing a soveriegn nation IF the people as a whole will it. Waste of time and effort in my personal view but....



hmm i used the wrong words, sorry for that, i mean 'made to' in the same way a student is 'made to' learn English, Maths, Sciences etc. The gradual extension of Welsh-medium schooling should be the foundation of the growth of the Welsh language. Obviously better long-term solutions are needed such as to protect threatened Welsh-speaking communities, campaign for language rights, more legal protection for the language, an extension of learning opportunities for adults etc etc. 

Nobody should be jailed for not wishing to speak a language, i'd never suggest such a thing. 
And nobody should have to choose a nationality if they don't want one ! Most people do though.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 5, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> That means nothing, you say the borders are 'artificial', fine, but people still think their Welsh, they have a national consciousness that is currently greater than their class consciousness. Again this may be a good thing or a bad thing, i'm undecided but will pursue whatever consciousness is more legitimate, i.e has a larger mandate amongst public opinion, so long as it corresponds to my personal principles.




Sure people think they belong to one nation or another. That national consciousness does indeed make it ‘legitimate‘ if one wishes to use such a concept. But all this tells us is that such a consciousness is a false consciousness that does not relate to the real divisions within this society.

It is a false consciousness in that it does not relate to class relations which are based on the real material conditions of existence. At bottom individuals really do constitute social classes based on their relationship to their means of production. Their situation within the process of production and relationship to it determines their education, schooling and everything else up to and including their funerals. That said class consciousness is, like the position of the individual worker within the process of production, subject to constant change and this ensures that it is extremely difficult for workers to develop an understanding (consciousness) of class society as a whole and their position within it. The propagation of that knowledge within the class is precisely the task of revolutionary socialists.

On the other hand national consciousness is imaginary and is not based on any authentic shared common experience. It is simply ideology based on an imagined community that in reality does not exist. It might be argued that it is common history, culture, ethnicity or some other factor that provides the basis of a common national consciousness but these ideas must be rejected. For example the history of Wales, like that of all nations, is a history of exploitation and oppression of the majority by the ruling minority. It is a history too of the majority waging a constant conflict against the majority in pursuit of its own material interests. A history then of class conflict. A common culture too as the basis for Welsh nationalism is lacking and has been for many centuries. Culture today is, as everywhere in the developed world, ever more based on the growing tendency towards a common culture within the imperialist countries. The linguistic divide in Wales is of little importance in this respect.

National consciousness, whether it be British or Welsh national consciousness, is imaginary and is not based on anything real and material. It is a political concept first and foremost. It does not correspond to the real material divisions within society and the solution of any given national question cannot even begin to solve the problems of that part of humanity imprisoned within the borders of any given nation. In fact national independence, genuine independence, will exacerbate many of humanity’s common problems.

Anyhow I accept that you are acting according to your principles in advocating a national policy. But such a principle is opposed to the objective needs of the working class for class unity against the boss class. The only principles that I can recognise as legitimate are the principles of class war. Sorry to go on a bit but I have to admit it’s actually very funny to read that you don’t want to force people to belong to a nation. I can only presume that a Welsh census would carry an option to opt out of declaring one’s nationality? Would I be permitted to travel where I will regardless of borders that mean nothing to me? Will that right be available to non-Welsh citizens wishing to come here?

Anyway i fear we're about to go around the same circle again so for now....


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 5, 2005)

people  moving to wales should learn cymraeg and people moving to england ..english .. especially if they want citizenship .. if i go to spain i should learn spanish and if i go to barca catalan .. simple


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## TeeJay (Nov 5, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The propagation of that knowledge within the class is precisely the task of revolutionary socialists.


So do middle class revolutionary socialists have the task of making the middle class conscious of their role in oppressing everyone?

edit: ...but more seriously: like you I don't really buy into the idea of national identity - but I also don't buy into the idea of class identity either. It is just another 'political idea' which can be useful in some situations but not some "objective" universal truth. But then again I am "liberal" not a revolutionary marxist.


----------



## JWH (Nov 5, 2005)

"I can only presume that a Welsh census would carry an option to opt out of declaring one’s nationality? Would I be permitted to travel where I will regardless of borders that mean nothing to me? Will that right be available to non-Welsh citizens wishing to come here?"

But you start off by talking about citizenship and then talk about nationality, and they are two different things, surely? (british citizenship vs welsh nationality, for example)


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 5, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> "An understanding of the British language and our way of life is vital."


The British language is Welsh.
 The Britons were the Celtic peoples who spoke the ancestor of Welsh.  Welsh is the surviving form of that language.

English is a Germanic language brought in much later by the German tribes.  It has since gone through changes and adaptations borrrowing from Norman French etc.  But it is in no way "The British language".


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 5, 2005)

But the Welsh/Celts originally came and colonised these islands displacing the Beaker people!

The term "British" was invented by the Romans and described all the islands (present day UK, Ireland etc).

There is no "original" anything.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 5, 2005)

Does that mean we can learn Klingon? My brother speaks quite alot and hes welsh


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 5, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> But the Welsh/Celts originally came and colonised these islands displacing the Beaker people!


 That's a discredited theory these days.  About as logical as saying the Television People colonized these islands in the 1950s, replacing the previous inhabitants.



> The term "British" was invented by the Romans and described all the islands (present day UK, Ireland etc).


 It meant "Painted Ones", and indeed covered all of the peoples.  But those peoples retreated to the West (Wales, Cumbria, Strathclyde, Cornwall, Brittany).  Their language, however, survives only in Wales.



> There is no "original" anything.


I know what you mean.  But your claim won't stand scrutiny.  Take for example the original line-up of Napalm Death: was there one or not?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 5, 2005)

Brittany has breton and Cornwall cornish does it not??
The language has just evolved has it not?  after all north walian dialect can be very different ( even for a welsh speaker) than that spoken in the south?

We went to a breton fete and my children spoke welsh to some of the local people we chatted to who understood the gist of what they were saying relating it to breton


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 5, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Brittany has breton and Cornwall cornish does it not??


Brittany does have Breton.  But it isn't in these islands, and cannot be what the Government wants immigrants into the UK to learn.

I'll concede Cornwall has Cornish, although I submit it died out and has been revived by enthusiasts.

All language evolves.  My point is that the language of the Ancient Britons (ie the British Language) has evolved into Welsh (Breton and Cornish), not into English.


----------



## Dhimmi (Nov 5, 2005)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> I have never understood the aptitude of people who move to a new country and don’t even know how to say hello.



Me too, it's too much like going to someone's home and sitting there silently in a corner. If you'll not interesting in talking why bother turning up?


----------



## niclas (Nov 5, 2005)

Dhimmi: "Me too, it's too much like going to someone's home and sitting there silently in a corner. If you'll not interesting in talking why bother turning up?"

Good analogy. 

Problem is we're too goddam nice to unwanted visitors.

The Basques, on the other hand, have a policy of monolingual public signs in 57 town council areas. So if you want to find where the beach is you have to know that "hondixtaria" (OK, I made that up but it's not a million miles away) is the beach. After all, I bet you know "playa" is beach. Why not learn "traeth" while you're about it?

At least then you can't feign surprise when you move to live in the area and find to your horror that little Johnny has to have his schooling in Welsh.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 5, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Brittany does have Breton.  But it isn't in these islands, and cannot be what the Government wants immigrants into the UK to learn.
> 
> I'll concede Cornwall has Cornish, although I submit it died out and has been revived by enthusiasts.
> 
> All language evolves.  My point is that the language of the Ancient Britons (ie the British Language) has evolved into Welsh (Breton and Cornish), not into English.



OK good point made badly when you said- reads differently from how you meant it to thats all  



> It meant "Painted Ones", and indeed covered all of the peoples. But those peoples retreated to the West (Wales, Cumbria, Strathclyde, Cornwall, Brittany). Their language, however, survives only in Wales.


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 5, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> That's a discredited theory these days.  About as logical as saying the Television People colonized these islands in the 1950s, replacing the previous inhabitants.


The Celts migrated to the "British Isles" (as they were later labelled by the Romans. There were people there before they arrived. True or false?


> Take for example the original line-up of Napalm Death: was there one or not?


OK, let me narrow my claim down: there is no original anything, when it comes to "nations", "peoples", "cultures" or "countries".

I will leave rock groups out of it.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> So do middle class revolutionary socialists have the task of making the middle class conscious of their role in oppressing everyone?
> 
> edit: ...but more seriously: like you I don't really buy into the idea of national identity - but I also don't buy into the idea of class identity either. It is just another 'political idea' which can be useful in some situations but not some "objective" universal truth. But then again I am "liberal" not a revolutionary marxist.



Well Chas Marx, a middle class revolutionary socialist, did write a book so that workers could become more class conscious. Given that more middle class interlectuals have paid it serious attention than so called Marxists ever have your comment is sadly correct.

Of course class is not a universal objective truth. Thats the point really to get rid of classes.


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> The Celts migrated to the "British Isles" (as they were later labelled by the Romans. There were people there before they arrived. True or false?


True.

But the people labelled Britons by the Romans were the ones here when the Romans labelled them.  Oddly enough.  So it is their language that is the British Language, not the (unknown) language of the Pre-British inhabitants.  Funnily.

I don't remember saying anything about who was original, just who the Britons were.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 6, 2005)

JWH said:
			
		

> "I can only presume that a Welsh census would carry an option to opt out of declaring one’s nationality? Would I be permitted to travel where I will regardless of borders that mean nothing to me? Will that right be available to non-Welsh citizens wishing to come here?"
> 
> But you start off by talking about citizenship and then talk about nationality, and they are two different things, surely? (british citizenship vs welsh nationality, for example)



I was replying to lewislewis who is desirous of a Welsh state.

Although it could be said and is said by many that British citizenship and British nationality are identical.

In fact there are plenty of people around who will depending on the context describe their nationality as either Welsh or British. Many see no contradiction in doing so.

Given that nations are not based on any material reality but on a shared adherence to an irrational concept they may be right......


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> True.
> 
> But the people labelled Britons by the Romans were the ones here when the Romans labelled them.  Oddly enough.  So it is their language that is the British Language, not the (unknown) language of the Pre-British inhabitants.  Funnily.
> 
> I don't remember saying anything about who was original, just who the Britons were.


I totally accept that Welsh is a British language, but I dispute the idea that there is only *one* British language. English evolved on these islands, so it is also a British language as well.


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I totally accept that Welsh is a British language, but I dispute the idea that there is only *one* British language. English evolved on these islands, so it is also a British language as well.


The point, though, is that Tony McNulty said "An understanding of the British language is vital."

English did indeed evolve over a wide part of these islands.  But it is not "the British language".  If any language can accurately claim that description, it is Welsh.

And I'm not Welsh, so I have no axe to grind but the Axe of Truth.


----------



## Dhimmi (Nov 6, 2005)

...


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> The point, though, is that Tony McNulty said "An understanding of the British language is vital."
> 
> English did indeed evolve over a wide part of these islands.  But it is not "the British language".  If any language can accurately claim that description, it is Welsh.
> 
> And I'm not Welsh, so I have no axe to grind but the Axe of Truth.


Ok, so it all comes down to the use of "the"...

...I think it is possible that he was using 'British' instead of 'English' so as to cover all the recognised British languages. English and Welsh would therefore be sub-sets (logically if not linguistically) of the wider "British language". It doesn't really make much sense grammatically, but politicians are like that.

He definitely didn't say "An understanding of the English language is vital." did he?


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

Dhimmi said:
			
		

> I disagree there is or was but there's no way of knowing what it might have been aside from some stunning archaelogical find which isn't going to happen.
> I think the most certain thing you could claim would be a similarity across humanity as a bare arsed early human banging a stick against a tree is the same whether it's in where we now call Mombassa or Basildon.


Well in that case all immigrants and emigrants are ok then!


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> The British language is Welsh.
> The Britons were the Celtic peoples who spoke the ancestor of Welsh.  Welsh is the surviving form of that language.
> 
> English is a Germanic language brought in much later by the German tribes.  It has since gone through changes and adaptations borrrowing from Norman French etc.  But it is in no way "The British language".



Brythonic is the root language which evolved into Welsh, Cornish and Breton. It is extinct. Welsh is a language of Britain specifically of Wales.

English is language belonging to the German family of languages and evolved in what is now England and parts of southern Scotland. By the time it assumed a settled form recognisakle it was also the language of parts of Wales i might add. English is a langauge of Britain and is widespread globally.

The concept of a people or peoples known as The Celts is a myth. The term refers to a set of cultures and related languages. That is all.

There is no British language. There are only various languages native to Britain. English ahd Welsh are the most widely spoken of these languages.

The facts make of them what you will.


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> He definitely didn't say "An understanding of the English language is vital." did he?


No, but that's what he meant.  And that's what he should have said.

He may have been trying not to upset the Scots (etc), but he got it all wrong.  I speak English with a Scots accent, and the odd Scots word and syntax/grammatical structure thrown in.  But basically English.  Definately not British.


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> No, but that's what he meant.  And that's what he should have said.


I disagree that's what he meant.

He probably knew full well that the citizen tests can be conducted in English, Scottish Gaelic, or Welsh. Instead he just said "British".


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I disagree that's what he meant.


Really?  Bizarre.

In that case he should have said "a British language".  But then this thread wouldn't need to exist.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> True.
> 
> But the people labelled Britons by the Romans were the ones here when the Romans labelled them.  Oddly enough.  So it is their language that is the British Language, not the (unknown) language of the Pre-British inhabitants.  Funnily.
> 
> I don't remember saying anything about who was original, just who the Britons were.



The peoples living south of the Antonine Wall spoke languages which have been identified as speaking both P and Q celtic languages. Thus the Parisi would not have been able to talk directly to the Silures for example.

There was then no single group who consciously identified themselves as being Britons. That term is an invention of the Romans.

Brythonic is the term given to the language which most 'Britons' belonging to P Celtic speaking peoples would have spoken variants of. Given the relative lack of communication between the antipodes of the region this languge was spoken in it is thought that peoples speaking it would have been speaking languages more different than Modern Welsh and Breton are today.

Ethnically the britons are not only the ancestors of the Welsh but of the English. Fact is the German and Viking settlers did not engage in ethnic cleaning. They simply killed the males of ther ruling strata and stole their wives and subjects. Settlement being heavier on the east coast of course.


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The peoples living south of the Antonine Wall spoke languages which have been identified as speaking both P and Q celtic languages. Thus the Parisi would not have been able to talk directly to the Silures for example.
> 
> There was then no single group who consciously identified themselves as being Britons. That term is an invention of the Romans.
> 
> ...


Indeed.

But for the purposes of this discussion the salient section is:  "Brythonic is the term given to the language which most 'Britons' belonging to P Celtic speaking peoples would have spoken variants of."


----------



## Dhimmi (Nov 6, 2005)

...


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Really?  Bizarre.
> 
> In that case he should have said "a British language".  But then this thread wouldn't need to exist.


He is the minister responsible for the rules, so of course he would know that English, Scottish Gaelic and Welsh are all equally valid. Why is it "bizarre" that he replaced this mouthful with "British"?

The fact that he said "the" instead of "a" is not bizarre either - as I said he is a politician, used to speaking in sound bites. They are often sloppy with their grammar for the sake of style.

I have also noticed that he lists "gaelic games" as one of his passtimes/interests. I really doubt he would not be aware of this issue and the details of the very rules that he has himself drawn up.


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

Dhimmi said:
			
		

> Well I'm not neccessarily convinced of that, in a "modern" world everything is so much more complicated than it needs be. The odd part about the UK is we as a whole seem now quite happy with those who have historically come here behind a sword's point (Romans, Danes, Normans etc), but furious with anyone who comes here peacefully today.


I don't agree that "we as a whole" are "furious" with anyone.  

(ps I am an "immigrant" as I was born overseas)


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Why is it "bizarre" that he replaced this mouthful with "British"?


No, I meant it is bizarre that you should think he meant "a British language".  It never crossed my mind that that's what he meant.


----------



## Dhimmi (Nov 6, 2005)

...


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 6, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> No, I meant it is bizarre that you should think he meant "a British language".  It never crossed my mind that that's what he meant.


So you really didn't know that people could take the test in welsh and scottish gaelic as well as english? I knew this and so did the person saying it. To me this indicates that he deliberately said "British" rather than "English".

Why didn't this cross your mind?


----------



## pilchardman (Nov 6, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> So you really didn't know that people could take the test in welsh and scottish gaelic as well as english?


No, that I knew.


----------



## Isambard (Nov 6, 2005)

<devil's advocate>
If a (larger) community of Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu speakers built itself up (probably) in urban Wales would there be the same support from Plaid and their assocaites for *multi*-lingual electricity bills?


----------



## Karac (Nov 6, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> <devil's advocate>
> If a (larger) community of Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu speakers built itself up (probably) in urban Wales would there be the same support from Plaid and their assocaites for *multi*-lingual electricity bills?


Dont see why not-in East London Councils and NHS trusts produce bills and leaflets in a dozen or more languages-its not a problem in the age of the poota.


----------



## niclas (Nov 7, 2005)

Devil's advocate? Great, that's all we need...

Why are there so many people on this thread missing the point so spectacularly?

The Labour politician was talking about "the British language" - not "a" and not "languages". I submit, your honour, that he was either 


(a) an unthinking Brit who can't work out the difference between English and British, even when we're talking about a language

or

(b) an unthinking Brit imperialist who can work out the difference but doesn't give a damn.

(Funny how they know the difference when the English cricket team's winning)


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 7, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Devil's advocate? Great, that's all we need...
> 
> Why are there so many people on this thread missing the point so spectacularly?
> 
> ...




Niclas I suspect that just about everyone on the Wales board agress with you that saying british when one means English is dumb shit and that this particular Nu Labourrite hack is reflecting his unconscious imperialist assumptions when he mistakes British for English. But really who gives a shit? Really why get all worked up over some stupid comment? Its only hot air lad.

PS Is cricket the game played in the Summer that is even more boring than that rugby game the morons play?


----------



## TeeJay (Nov 7, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> I submit, your honour, that he was either
> 
> 
> (a) an unthinking Brit who can't work out the difference between English and British, even when we're talking about a language
> ...


"They"?

Isn't this guy of Scottish origin ffs!   

Of course he fucking knows the difference - he wrote a policy that allows a choice of Welsh, Scots Gaelic or English in his new "tests".

Why the fuck would he not know the difference if he drafted the fucking thing?  

edit: ...your *honour*


----------



## Isambard (Nov 7, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Devil's advocate? Great, that's all we need...



Maybe you'd be better off THINKING for yourself sometime rather than just singing off one Eisteddfod song sheet.

Wanker nu-Labour politician is silly comment shocker!


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 7, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> <devil's advocate>
> If a (larger) community of Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu speakers built itself up (probably) in urban Wales would there be the same support from Plaid and their assocaites for *multi*-lingual electricity bills?



Yes its already happening


----------



## niclas (Nov 7, 2005)

*Stereotypes 'r' us*

Isambard: "Maybe you'd be better off THINKING for yourself sometime rather than just singing off one Eisteddfod song sheet."

More devil's advocating?
What's an Eisteddfod song? Is this leading us to sheep, miners, choirs and leeks by any chance?


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Is this leading us to sheep, miners, choirs and leeks by any chance?


The insinuation that I take Welsh miners in vain puts you on VERY fucking thin ice.

When I was making roast dinner for my ex boyf yesterday (I bought the lamb in a Turkish butcher's, I'm so sorry) I washed the leeks just how I learned how seeing Glenys Kinnock do it on the telly years ago.   

But I bought the mint sauce in Tesco in Bristol.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 8, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> English people should be made to learn Welsh if they have to practically speak it in their new area.



Sure - but shouldn't you really be worrying about getting the Welsh to speak Welsh first?


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 8, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> The insinuation that I take Welsh miners in vain puts you on VERY fucking thin ice.
> 
> When I was making roast dinner for my ex boyf yesterday (I bought the lamb in a Turkish butcher's, I'm so sorry) I washed the leeks just how I learned how seeing Glenys Kinnock do it on the telly years ago.
> 
> But I bought the mint sauce in Tesco in Bristol.



What do you mean by the reference to Turkish butchers?


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 8, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Sure people think they belong to one nation or another. That national consciousness does indeed make it ‘legitimate‘ if one wishes to use such a concept. But all this tells us is that such a consciousness is a false consciousness that does not relate to the real divisions within this society.
> 
> It is a false consciousness in that it does not relate to class relations which are based on the real material conditions of existence. At bottom individuals really do constitute social classes based on their relationship to their means of production. Their situation within the process of production and relationship to it determines their education, schooling and everything else up to and including their funerals. That said class consciousness is, like the position of the individual worker within the process of production, subject to constant change and this ensures that it is extremely difficult for workers to develop an understanding (consciousness) of class society as a whole and their position within it. The propagation of that knowledge within the class is precisely the task of revolutionary socialists.
> 
> ...



Keeping it simple, if I spoke to a person from France, Ireland, Saudi Arabia or any other country she would more likely than not recognise I was a Welshman before I was working-class. Therefore, he would see my nationality as more significant than my class.


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> What do you mean by the reference to Turkish butchers?



Maybe it might be seen by some as "cultural imperialism" of whatever that I bought the lamb from a Turkish butcher rather than a "pure" Welsh butcher in a remote corner of Ceredigion, I dunno. 

Also, I was a wee bit tanked.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 8, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Maybe it might be seen by some as "cultural imperialism" of whatever that I bought the lamb from a Turkish butcher rather than a "pure" Welsh butcher in a remote corner of Ceredigion, I dunno.
> 
> Also, I was a wee bit tanked.



Lol fair enough if you were drunk. Bit stupid to think Welsh nationalists would care about race, when the Welsh nationalist party has got the more Muslim councillors than any other party combined (not that I think this matters politically).

My butcher is a Kurd, he puts up a Plaid poster in his window (his business window at that) every election and leaflets his street, be careful not to buy from him because he donates to our evil, racist 'pure Welsh' party.


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't do nationalism but think you seem a fairly decent sort of bloke, wouldn't buy you dafs mind!


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 8, 2005)

aw


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 8, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Keeping it simple, if I spoke to a person from France, Ireland, Saudi Arabia or any other country she would more likely than not recognise I was a Welshman before I was working-class. Therefore, he would see my nationality as more significant than my class.



Which goes to prove that class consciousness is not exactly high at present. its does not prove the reality of nations.

In any case Lewislewis if you do by chnace get the opportuity to travel to 'Saudi' Arabia i suspect that you will have a great deal of difficulty talking to ordinary people. If you are lucky enough to avoid the police then the chances of finding an ordinary person who knows where Wales is seems pretty remote.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Nov 9, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Keeping it simple, if I spoke to a person from France, Ireland, Saudi Arabia or any other country she would more likely than not recognise I was a Welshman before I was working-class. Therefore, he would see my nationality as more significant than my class.



I have to disagree, most people from abroad haven't even heard of Wales, I think it far more likely that they recognise your class than your nationality.

They would probably be more likely to think you were an Englishman than Welsh - sad, but true


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Which goes to prove that class consciousness is not exactly high at present. its does not prove the reality of nations.
> 
> In any case Lewislewis if you do by chnace get the opportuity to travel to 'Saudi' Arabia i suspect that you will have a great deal of difficulty talking to ordinary people. If you are lucky enough to avoid the police then the chances of finding an ordinary person who knows where Wales is seems pretty remote.



I have no inclination to visit the Saudi kingdom.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> I have to disagree, most people from abroad haven't even heard of Wales, I think it far more likely that they recognise your class than your nationality.
> 
> They would probably be more likely to think you were an Englishman than Welsh - sad, but true



Why yes, and that goes to show that we need to promote Wales.

To rephrase:
They would think 'oh, i've met an Englishman', not 'oh, i've met a fellow working class person'.


----------



## nightowl (Nov 9, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Why yes, and that goes to show that we need to promote Wales.



millions have been spent on promoting wales abroad


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## Isambard (Nov 9, 2005)

I got thinking about the Kurdish butcher the other night. Just to make it clear and to give me a chace to flirt outrageously with LewisLewis as he pines for dafs off me   

I don't think that the strain of Welsh nationalism that is on about (the shall we say) "purity" of the nation and language is nescessarily synonomous with Plaid Cymru.

Plaid Cymru like all parliamentary parites , particuarly those with a strong nationalist or regionalist base has its different wings of course.

And I certainly wasn't accusing you of racism LL, please don't keep taglin cos of me.


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## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> I don't think that the strain of Welsh nationalism that is on about (the shall we say) "purity" of the nation and language is nescessarily synonomous with Plaid Cymru.
> 
> And I certainly wasn't accusing you of racism LL, please don't keep taglin cos of me.



ah that's fine. Even though i don't know what 'taglin' means


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## neprimerimye (Nov 9, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I have no inclination to visit the Saudi kingdom.



Islamophobe!!!!


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 9, 2005)

nightowl said:
			
		

> millions have been spent on promoting wales abroad



Yeah wasted money that could have been used for education or building houses like.

Seriously if one is 'abroad' and meets the natives surely they are meeting oneself? Or to put that another way they are meeting not a Welsh national or a worker but a fellow human bean.


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## lewislewis (Nov 11, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Yeah wasted money that could have been used for education or building houses like.
> 
> Seriously if one is 'abroad' and meets the natives surely they are meeting oneself? Or to put that another way they are meeting not a Welsh national or a worker but a fellow human bean.



Exactly, and what must be celebrated is that all humans are diverse, unique and special.

* P.S millions spent on advertising Wales shouldn't be spent, we should just have our own ambassadors instead to do the job.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 11, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Exactly, and what must be celebrated is that all humans are diverse, unique and special.
> 
> * P.S millions spent on advertising Wales shouldn't be spent, we should just have our own ambassadors instead to do the job.



Aye celebrate individual humans united in our uniqueness and divided by nation states. In which case why add yet another nation state and then burden its citizens with expensive ambassadors?


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## lewislewis (Nov 11, 2005)

Having different countries shows how diverse the world is, we need more small countries especially to resist the cultural, social and economic effects of globalisation. We can also stay out of imperialist wars.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 11, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Having different countries shows how diverse the world is, we need more small countries especially to resist the cultural, social and economic effects of globalisation. We can also stay out of imperialist wars.



Being small will not enable a country to resist the cultural, social and economic effects of globalisation. It is a matter of fact that small countries are not less but more susceptible to domination by imperialism as a global system of rule.

In any case I herald and welcome the construction of a global culture and global economic systems. Again it is a fact that small countries cannot escape the tendency towards construction of a global economy and on top of that foundation a global culture.

Why resist what is positive about globalisation? Do you reject the increased cultural choices which are now available? If a rock band sings in Welsh they are still utlising an American musical form are they not?

And what have your fine, albeit empty, words to do with the desire you previously expressed for an expensive diplomatic service?


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## lewislewis (Nov 13, 2005)

So you would be happy to see Welsh, Irish and English culture wiped out and replaced by a new global culture?

Cultural choice is great and i support it, all the more reason for Wales to become independent so we can export our culture all over the world.


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## Isambard (Nov 13, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> a new global culture?



OUR global culture, of fraternity and diversity, for the benefit of humankind rather than pandering to capitalism and it's sell-offs like nationalism.

Who was the fucker who used to be the boss of British Steel? Yeah, bet people in Llanwern  LUV getting fucked over by a fucker called "Jones".

Do me a fucking favour lad, your more intelligent than that aren't you?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 13, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> So you would be happy to see Welsh, Irish and English culture wiped out and replaced by a new global culture?
> 
> Cultural choice is great and i support it, all the more reason for Wales to become independent so we can export our culture all over the world.



Distinct national cultures have already been wiped out in the advvanced capitalist countries. That is a matter of fact. We already live in a world which knows a common culture in many respects. There are only decreasingly important regional and sun-cultural variations of that capitalist culture.

I point this out neither to celebrate it or in order to mourn the marginslisation of national elements in popular culture but simply to register this fact. That the all pervading global culture is a bourgeois culture I loathe but I see no reason to regret the loss, long ago in UK PLC, of what were often retarded regional cultures.

Btw I'm currently listening to a Japanese band peforming in an American musicla idiom and singing in Spainish. Proof that a global cultural base need not be mere bland homogenised pap. Human creativity is more than capable of expressing itself through any medium and in any tongue. The existence of a global culutural base simply enables artists to gain a wider hearing than ever before.


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## lewislewis (Nov 14, 2005)

I fear that though your intentions are noble, the only global culture we're going to get is that of the dollar.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 14, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I fear that though your intentions are noble, the only global culture we're going to get is that of the dollar.



I wish iIcould say that your intentions are noble but they are but delusions.

Nothing personal but thats how things are.


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## Isambard (Nov 14, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> the only global culture we're going to get is that of the dollar.



So let's have a national capitalist economy with Dylan Thomas on the notes instead shall we?

<bit drunk, but being nice tonight.    >


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## lewislewis (Nov 17, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I wish iIcould say that your intentions are noble but they are but delusions.
> 
> Nothing personal but thats how things are.



Hmm. We're far more likely to see an independent Wales (my intention) than a world without any borders or countries where everyone's happy and there aren't any capitalists (your intention). Tell me again, who is deluded?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 17, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Hmm. We're far more likely to see an independent Wales (my intention) than a world without any borders or countries where everyone's happy and there aren't any capitalists (your intention). Tell me again, who is deluded?



Politically speaking anyone who actually believes that an INDEPENDENT Wales is achievable is bordering on a clinical state of delusion and should seek help as soon as possible.

Sure its by no means imposible that you could have a formally independent state of Wales and you could even call it socialist. But it will remain connected to the British, European and World economies by millions of threads that w3ill make genuine independence as realistic a possibility as the Second Coming of Christ. Another delusion many choose to believe in.

On the other hadn a world without frontiers is not only practical but is the only possible solution to the probblems facing humanity. Whether or not people would be happy in such if such a state of affairs were to come into being I cannot know.


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## durruti02 (Nov 17, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Politically speaking anyone who actually believes that an INDEPENDENT Wales is achievable is bordering on a clinical state of delusion and should seek help as soon as possible.
> 
> Sure its by no means imposible that you could have a formally independent state of Wales and you could even call it socialist. But it will remain connected to the British, European and World economies by millions of threads that w3ill make genuine independence as realistic a possibility as the Second Coming of Christ. Another delusion many choose to believe in.
> 
> On the other hadn a world without frontiers is not only practical but is the only possible solution to the probblems facing humanity. Whether or not people would be happy in such if such a state of affairs were to come into being I cannot know.



it will be a pretty boring place though without local cultural diversity!! .. the only world in the here and now which is disolving borders is capitalism .. one way to resist this is to promote local culture BUT in a progressive way .. you sound like you think anyone interested in welsh culture is conservative / repressive .. to qoute " ..often retarded regional cultures.." .. this is just plain ignorent and offensive tbh .. as english has become a glbal language there is no reason for all the regional lanaguges /dialects not to thrive in partnership


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## lewislewis (Nov 17, 2005)

I agree with Durruti.

Cultural diversity is a good thing, 

and in the non-ideal world different peoples have to organise themselves into nations for the collective good.

Nep...if your borderless world is such a real possibility, how come hardly anybody in Wales let alone the world agrees with you?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> it will be a pretty boring place though without local cultural diversity!! .. the only world in the here and now which is disolving borders is capitalism .. one way to resist this is to promote local culture BUT in a progressive way .. you sound like you think anyone interested in welsh culture is conservative / repressive .. to qoute " ..often retarded regional cultures.." .. this is just plain ignorent and offensive tbh .. as english has become a glbal language there is no reason for all the regional lanaguges /dialects not to thrive in partnership



It is a bad habit to misrepresent the views of others and one you would seem to have. You have no reason to represent my views as being in opposition to what you term local cultures. Although in fact such cultures have, in the developed world, long since ceased to count for much in any event I might add.

The reason for this is simple enough to find as local cultures were based on localised economic and social differences. Such differences are to a considerable degree a thing of the past and i can seen othing progressive in seeking to preserve that which is already badly eroded and which has little or no relevance to the way in which people live today.

Let me ask why you think that someone from say Ceredigion must associate/participate/identify with the local culture of that area? Or why must someone from say Cardiff associate/participate/identify with the local culture of that area? Can we not choose freely what elements of culture we associate/participate/identify ourselves with from the global pool that now exists? Must we be limited to pre-existing local cultures which no longer speak to us or hold meaning for us?

I've previously noted that a favorite band of mine perform in an American musical mode, utilise Occitanian melodies, sing nonsense and come from Japan. Now I, to some small degree, identify with what they do, it says something to me about my reality (or lack of it perhaps) which none of the current crop of Welsh bands do (english or welsh language, they all suck).

Its global culture now, get used to it and the increased diversity based on new realities. But yes at present unless one is consciously oppositional the new global culture is leading and will continue to lead to greater cultural homogenisation as with MTV Europe and similar garbage. But the fact remains that the old local cultures are dead and cannot be reivived nor can they, in general, serve as mediums of resistance to imperialism.


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## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

nep .. i judged you by your weighted phrase .. "retarted local cultures" .. 

tbh mate i find most global cultures to be as retarted as most local cultures .. and if you had read my post you would have picked up that i welcome a common language .. english .. and that i suggested geraint jarman as an example of global and local cultures co existing


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## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nep .. i judged you by your weighted phrase .. "retarted local cultures" ..
> 
> tbh mate i find most global cultures to be as retarted as most local cultures .. and if you had read my post you would have picked up that i welcome a common language .. english .. and that i suggested geraint jarman as an example of global and local cultures co existing



Durruti when we are talking of cultures lets be clear that the term is being used in a wide sense. That is the dominant full spectrum culture of a given society. Meaning we are not discussing sub-cultures based on music or motorbikes. Nor are we discussing local cultures based on a couple of villages in some foresaken part of the country.

In which case I'm afraid that my remark about retarded local cultures is quite legitimate. Some localised cultures do become cut of from the general course of development of world culture and do degenerate or fail to develop a full spectrum coverage.

Bit puzzled by your comment re Geraint Jarman btw. To be frank he strikes me as an artist whose work does not transcend his own area despite being based on forms which are now global. By way of contrast i would offer Keiji Heino who is similarly in a specific area and draws on forms which are global. That said I suspect few people would actually enjoy listening to Heino given the extremity of his work. Jarman on the other hand simply seems bland. But shit its all subjective this cultural appreciation shit.


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Durruti when we are talking of cultures lets be clear that the term is being used in a wide sense. That is the dominant full spectrum culture of a given society. Meaning we are not discussing sub-cultures based on music or motorbikes. Nor are we discussing local cultures based on a couple of villages in some foresaken part of the country.
> 
> In which case I'm afraid that my remark about retarded local cultures is quite legitimate. Some localised cultures do become cut of from the general course of development of world culture and do degenerate or fail to develop a full spectrum coverage.
> 
> Bit puzzled by your comment re Geraint Jarman btw. To be frank he strikes me as an artist whose work does not transcend his own area despite being based on forms which are now global. By way of contrast i would offer Keiji Heino who is similarly in a specific area and draws on forms which are global. That said I suspect few people would actually enjoy listening to Heino given the extremity of his work. Jarman on the other hand simply seems bland. But shit its all subjective this cultural appreciation shit.



absolutely it is subjective but a progressive must at times be that .. 

 so is not McCulture degenerate and retarded?? 

 and is it not maybe the reason that many old cutures are backward ( as some are i'll grant you) something to do with imperialism and pushing people into caricatures of there culture ??

.. as you know wales was at the fore front of democracy/education/univertsies and printing many centuries ago .. it was argueably the repression of the welsh community that forced people into that bleak protestant culture that so dominated for so long .. and similarly in ireland where the community retreated into a romanism as a defence against english 'imperialism' .. the irish are not NATURALLY romans or anything else .. none of us are naturally anything ..


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## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Bit puzzled by your comment re Geraint Jarman btw. To be frank he strikes me as an artist whose work does not transcend his own area despite being based on forms which are now global. By way of contrast i would offer Keiji Heino who is similarly in a specific area and draws on forms which are global. That said I suspect few people would actually enjoy listening to Heino given the extremity of his work. Jarman on the other hand simply seems bland. But shit its all subjective this cultural appreciation shit.



 so you criticise welsh culturalists/artists for being blinkered and when i give an example of one who uses cymraeg but in global forms you just say it is bland??? ( and at the same time suggest a better example of someone who you then admit  few could listen too!!!) come on!


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## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> absolutely it is subjective but a progressive must at times be that ..
> 
> so is not McCulture degenerate and retarded??
> 
> ...



McCulture! Not quite sure what you mean by that but I'm guessing you mean the pap that infests the mass media. In which case no it is not retarded as it is merely one aspect of the dominant culture of the day. It represents the degradation of popular culture and its increasing homogenisation but its not backward. Its degraded. Both are bad but rather different.

As for your remark that Wales was at the forefront of democracy/education/universties i find these propositions incorrect. A reading of Lefebvres work The Coming of the Book, the defintive history of the development of printing in Europe, shows that Wales got its first printing press rather late as it happens. The development of democracy was no more advanced in Wales than elsewhere in Britain and a specifically Welsh University developed at a much later date than those in England and Scotland.

I make these points as i agree that if one is to be progressive in the field of culture one must be subjective. As a communist I hold that only that which tends towards the social revolution is progressive therefore my subjectivity is geared to the needs of the working class regardless of national identity.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so you criticise welsh culturalists/artists for being blinkered and when i give an example of one who uses cymraeg but in global forms you just say it is bland??? ( and at the same time suggest a better example of someone who you then admit  few could listen too!!!) come on!



No I do not criticise artists whose work utilises Cymraeg for being blinkered. My criticism of Geraint Jarman is that he's not very good. Had you chosen to use Meic Stevens as an example I would not have said a thing. Mind I don't like Meic Stevens.

The point about Fushitsusha and Keiji Heino is that despite his work being difficult shall we say he is within his area regarded as being quite extraordinary. He is critically considered as important as Keith Rowe of AMM. If you are unfamiliar with AMM this is like saying he is as important as Jeff Beck or Jimi Hendrix.

Now with all due respect it cannot be claimed that Geraint Jarman is as important as Bob Dylan or that Meic Stevens is as important as Donovan. Actuallly I'm being mischievous here as Stevens clearly is as important as Donovan. But Donovan was hardly Dylan was he?

In any case English language rock bands suck too! Buy Japanese I say.


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## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I've previously noted that a favorite band of mine perform in an American musical mode, utilise Occitanian melodies, sing nonsense and come from Japan. Now I, to some small degree, identify with what they do, it says something to me about my reality (or lack of it perhaps) which none of the current crop of Welsh bands do (english or welsh language, they all suck).



That's utter shit, you don't have a clue, Wales has produced the best metal bands currently in the UK and Europe, both at commercial/mainstream and underground levels.

*Adds* And what about Welsh hip-hop (both languages), there's more to Welsh music than the Stereophonics and co.


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## Isambard (Nov 19, 2005)

As mentioned above and being subjective, it seems that there is a LOT more effort and money put into promoting Wales in Europe than regional England.

@ LewisLewis, Welsh HipHop? Tells us names please. Dioloch!


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## niclas (Nov 19, 2005)

*Dal dy dir - ethiopia newydd yn dyfod cyn hir*

Hip hop Cymraeg?

Try the legendary Llwybr Llaethog, MC Saizmundo, Pep le Pew, MC Mabon and Tystion (the latter being the most political)

I'd agree about Meic Stephens vs Geraint Jarman too - but Jarman was the first Welsh-language artist to incorporate reggae (back in the 70s remember).


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## Redstar (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> McCulture! Not quite sure what you mean by that but I'm guessing you mean the pap that infests the mass media. In which case no it is not retarded as it is merely one aspect of the dominant culture of the day. It represents the degradation of popular culture and its increasing homogenisation but its not backward. Its degraded. Both are bad but rather different.
> 
> As for your remark that Wales was at the forefront of democracy/education/universties i find these propositions incorrect. A reading of Lefebvres work The Coming of the Book, the defintive history of the development of printing in Europe, shows that Wales got its first printing press rather late as it happens. The development of democracy was no more advanced in Wales than elsewhere in Britain and a specifically Welsh University developed at a much later date than those in England and Scotland.
> 
> I make these points as i agree that if one is to be progressive in the field of culture one must be subjective. As a communist I hold that only that which tends towards the social revolution is progressive therefore my subjectivity is geared to the needs of the working class regardless of national identity.


 
 Ah, I get it now. A tankie. What you are proposing is just the flip side of Mcculture, we replace the dictatorship of capital with the dictatorship of the proletariat. I think it was DJ Davies - one of the early thinkers in Plaid Cymru who summed this bullshit up when he said you could take the leadership of a Trade Union and the leadership of a large corporation and swop them around quite easily - his broader point being that Capitalism and Socialism as we have traditionally conceived them are fundamentally the same - top down philosophies based on centralised control.

 You're just a historical dinosaur mun. How many Tankies are left in Cymru? Three?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> That's utter shit, you don't have a clue, Wales has produced the best metal bands currently in the UK and Europe, both at commercial/mainstream and underground levels.
> 
> *Adds* And what about Welsh hip-hop (both languages), there's more to Welsh music than the Stereophonics and co.



To be fair I'd be tempted to say you have a point about hip hop. Tempted but i really don't know enough about it to venture a valid opinion. But it is only one area of culture, a subculture, and if we are tallking of culture in the proper sense then my opinion is unchanged by this.

As for metal I'm intrigued by who you have in mind. Generally its a genre that, not to put too fine a point on it, is boring and very very dumb. But I have to fair and a lot of the stuff I've been listening to recently falls into that category rather losely speaking.

So do, please, tell me of bands that are the match of Church of Misery, the Corrupted, Boris, Asva and Sunno)))). Seriously if there is anybody working at the edges like these bands (3 Japanese and 2 US) then I want to know.

Seriously i would genuinely appreciate this information. Look I can find material on bands from Japan, USA and Scandinavia easily enough. Bands like Boris (Japan), Circle (Finland) or Sunno)) (US) seem well known in the underground world wide, if generally obscure of course, but I've seen fuck all about bands from Wales. If such bands do exist and are the peers of the above then why has no one picked up on them?


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## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

There's a load of heavy Welsh bands that have made it big and sell thousands of albums- I personally really dislike their kind of music, but the likes of Funeral For a Friend (Maesteg I think), Bullet for my Valentine (really shit band, Bridgend)and a few others. Again, I think these bands are dire but the general public seem to disagree with me.

Shaped by Fate from Cardiff are an extreme, brutal metal/hardcore band that are one of Europe's best in that field. Buy their EP from Spillers in Cardiff, but i fear it'd be a bit too chaotic musically for oldies.


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## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> OUR global culture, of fraternity and diversity, for the benefit of humankind rather than pandering to capitalism and it's sell-offs like nationalism.
> 
> Who was the fucker who used to be the boss of British Steel? Yeah, bet people in Llanwern  LUV getting fucked over by a fucker called "Jones".
> 
> Do me a fucking favour lad, your more intelligent than that aren't you?



ahaaha.
"OUR global culture, of fraternity and diversity, for the benefit of humankind'...similar things were said when the United States was founded.

It's pretty sad that people who are clearly older than me are far more deluded and idealistic!

Your only arguments against my politics , are arguments that have nothing to do with my politics.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> There's a load of heavy Welsh bands that have made it big and sell thousands of albums- I personally really dislike their kind of music, but the likes of Funeral For a Friend (Maesteg I think), Bullet for my Valentine (really shit band, Bridgend)and a few others. Again, I think these bands are dire but the general public seem to disagree with me.
> 
> Shaped by Fate from Cardiff are an extreme, brutal metal/hardcore band that are one of Europe's best in that field. Buy their EP from Spillers in Cardiff, but i fear it'd be a bit too chaotic musically for oldies.



Oh hell none of this stuff is extrerme or cutting edge. It's just saddo stuff. Not particularly heavy come to that.

As for old heavy bands like Budgie or Lone Star they are a different thing again. my comments were concerned with currrent cutting edge stuff which is non-existant in Wales.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

Loads of people listen to it though (not me however).


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## durruti02 (Dec 1, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> McCulture! Not quite sure what you mean by that but I'm guessing you mean the pap that infests the mass media. In which case no it is not retarded as it is merely one aspect of the dominant culture of the day. It represents the degradation of popular culture and its increasing homogenisation but its not backward. Its degraded. Both are bad but rather different.
> 
> As for your remark that Wales was at the forefront of democracy/education/universties i find these propositions incorrect. A reading of Lefebvres work The Coming of the Book, the defintive history of the development of printing in Europe, shows that Wales got its first printing press rather late as it happens. The development of democracy was no more advanced in Wales than elsewhere in Britain and a specifically Welsh University developed at a much later date than those in England and Scotland.
> 
> I make these points as i agree that if one is to be progressive in the field of culture one must be subjective. As a communist I hold that only that which tends towards the social revolution is progressive therefore my subjectivity is geared to the needs of the working class regardless of national identity.




my reading re democracy/book etc is differrent . will look up again . not part. imp. though ..

you talk of social rev .. i agree ... but 2 things .. how do you get there without the people ( and thats the same for those who want a monoglot cymraeg nation) and second whats the point if you destroy diversity in the process .. 

 i think welsh culturalism .. not nationalism .. is socially progressive in the 21st c. 

 p.s. all your bands sound superfically just up it's own arse shite .. give me meic stevens or jarman or man any day!!


----------



## Ben Bore (Dec 1, 2005)

I feel this thread has gone up it's own arse along with many of the contributors, but some of you (who live within S4C area) might be interested in a 6 part TV show that's on S4C at the moment called Popeth yn Gymraeg (_Everything in Welsh_).  It's kind of relevant to this thread because the presenter travells across Wales only speaking Welsh (in other words, not speaking a word of English).  It's a test of how far he can go, and to see how much people really can understand.

There's a more to this programme I think than just a Dave Gorman type stunt, as it shows 
*a.* how much people who claim to understand no Welsh really do understand, 
*b.* that if Welsh speakers were not so quick to turn to English for the other persons 'benefit', then maybe they'd be more inclined to learn Welsh
*c.* lots of other things I can't think of at the moment 

It's being discussed on a few blogs (in both languages) and there's a link to those discussions here


*Edit:*
O yeah, as always, english subtitles are available on Teletex 888


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 1, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> my reading re democracy/book etc is differrent . will look up again . not part. imp. though ..
> 
> you talk of social rev .. i agree ... but 2 things .. how do you get there without the people ( and thats the same for those who want a monoglot cymraeg nation) and second whats the point if you destroy diversity in the process ..
> 
> ...



Well the facts regarding education, printing and democracy are on my side. Though i would be fascinated to see evidence to the contrary.

As for achieving a social revolution well that cannot be done without the support of the majority of the population. Which is why such a revolution must be a workers revolution. And it would encourage diversity not destroy it.

As for Welsh culturalism being socially progressive what does this mean? How is it more progressive to coommunicate in Welsh than any other language?

Sure the bands I listed might well be superifical eltist crap. But how do you know not having heard them? The point is that here we have diversity but nothing similarly on the edge is coming out of Wales. So for those of us who want this particular type of dversity we simply have to look outside the borders of Wales.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 1, 2005)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I feel this thread has gone up it's own arse along with many of the contributors, but some of you (who live within S4C area) might be interested in a 6 part TV show that's on S4C at the moment called Popeth yn Gymraeg (_Everything in Welsh_).  It's kind of relevant to this thread because the presenter travells across Wales only speaking Welsh (in other words, not speaking a word of English).  It's a test of how far he can go, and to see how much people really can understand.



Whats your point? So a lot of people in Wales understand a bit more Welsh than they think they do? So what?

You could do exactly the same experiment with French or German. Which would prove nothing of any worth of course. Other than a lot of people retain a bit of the languages taught them at school.

Seems to me that this program is just to give the false impression that the majority of English speaking Welsh people can be educated to speak Welsh. Meanwhile a million more Chinese are learning English.


----------



## Ben Bore (Dec 1, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> A lot of people in Wales understand a bit more Welsh than they think they do? So what?



Quite a bit I think.  Given more assitance, opportunity and persuasion [sp?], more people would speak Welsh I'm sure.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Seems to me that this program is just to give the false impression that the majority of English speaking Welsh people can be educated to speak Welsh. Meanwhile a million more Chinese are learning English.



We're not in France, or Germany or China.  Do you think that the majority of people in Wales are incapable of learning Welsh? 

The Assembly government goes on about a bilingual Wales being something they are aiming for, which is very commendable, but I'm not even sure myself what that means.  For me, being bilingual is being able to speak/use more than one language to converse with other people depending on their language.
There was an old guy in the episode based in Pembrokshire.  It was around the town of Narbeth, and he said although he although he'd moved there 20 years ago he hadn't benn in a situation where he'd needed to learn Welsh.  He was right of course, because in his view everyone could speak to him in English, his language of choice.


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## durruti02 (Dec 1, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well the facts regarding education, printing and democracy are on my side. Though i would be fascinated to see evidence to the contrary.
> 
> As for achieving a social revolution well that cannot be done without the support of the majority of the population. Which is why such a revolution must be a workers revolution. And it would encourage diversity not destroy it.
> 
> ...




I'll check up on the first stuff .. all that nationalist brain washing may have misled me ..

i am a supporter of the workers rev. hence my tag and posts on other sites.. i am not convinced that your revolution isn't a monolingual/monoculural revolution. i do not know your background but i have leaflets about cultural minorities in the ussr and china ( train spotter that i am) boasting about how minorities are supportted .. but we know this is bullshit .. 

of course speaking welsh in itself has NO social/progressive content but in itself current context of creating new communities and history it does .. 

i did listen to them .. on amazon . they sound terrible ..to my taste .. but whats your point ... there is no reason why you  can't have welsh langauge AND interest in wierd music from where ever you like .. i do not get your problem with this .. p.s. john cale seems happy with his welshness and being part of avant guard


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## neprimerimye (Dec 1, 2005)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> Quite a bit I think.  Given more assitance, opportunity and persuasion [sp?], more people would speak Welsh I'm sure.
> 
> We're not in France, or Germany or China.  Do you think that the majority of people in Wales are incapable of learning Welsh?
> 
> The Assembly government goes on about a bilingual Wales being something they are aiming for, which is very commendable, but I'm not even sure myself what that means.  For me, being bilingual is being able to speak/use more than one language to converse with other people depending on their language.



Sure with time off from work and decent teachers most, if not all, people could learn a second language. Not that it need be Welsh mind you. The point is why would English speaking Welsh people want to do so?

The idea of a billingual Wales seems a bit daft to me. After all one can only speak one language at a time. The idea of everybody being bilingual on the other hand seems a very positive goal. I regret not having been given the opportunity to learn a second language of my choice when a mere stripling long long ago.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 1, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> I'll check up on the first stuff .. all that nationalist brain washing may have misled me ..
> 
> i am a supporter of the workers rev. hence my tag and posts on other sites.. i am not convinced that your revolution isn't a monolingual/monoculural revolution. i do not know your background but i have leaflets about cultural minorities in the ussr and china ( train spotter that i am) boasting about how minorities are supportted .. but we know this is bullshit ..
> 
> ...



Dunno about your being brainwashed but the historical record is important. So to take one point Lucien Febvre, in The Coming of the Book, shows a number of presses in England prior to 1481 but none in Wales until after 1500. None in the north of England or Ireland either.

No the social revolution I'm out for would not be monolingual. The political tradition I come from has a long history of producing materials in many languages and supporting the democratic righs of minorities and/or oppressed groups to use their language of choice. The record of the Stalinist states on this question is not germane to my views or politics.

Dunno what your saying regarding Welsh being progressive. You seem to be saying it is not progressive and that it is? I'm sorry I really don't understand what your saying.

Of course there is no problem in speaking Welsh and liking weird music. Obviously I've made my point badly here. What I'm suggesting is that Welsh speaking culture is only different from the dominant Anglo-American culture in that it makes use of a different language. I'm further suggesting that as a 'regional' culture it lacks the full range of development across the most important areas of culture and in regard to some aspects of popular culture is completely under or undeveloped. Therefore if one wishes to participate or simply enjoy such forms one must do so in a non-Welsh language medium. Cales career does illustrate this as is pretty clear.

PS Picking underground rock and free music was probably not the best choice as illustration of my point mind you! I'm surprised that you could find samples of bands like Boris, Circle or Keiji Heinos stuff on Amazon. But do checkout Aquarius Records out of San Francisco as their site does, to my certain knowledge, carry many such samples. Some of this stuff is, I admit, almost unlistenable if your used to mainstream stuff. I mean everyone knows Satisfaction and if you have heard Devos version its a jump onwards just as The Residents version is a far bigger jump. But Keiji Heinos version is not a jump forward it is a massive fuckking leap bearing little resemblance to the original.


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## Dai Sheep (Dec 1, 2005)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I feel this thread has gone up it's own arse along with many of the contributors, but some of you (who live within S4C area) might be interested in a 6 part TV show that's on S4C at the moment called Popeth yn Gymraeg (_Everything in Welsh_).  It's kind of relevant to this thread because the presenter travells across Wales only speaking Welsh (in other words, not speaking a word of English).  It's a test of how far he can go, and to see how much people really can understand.
> 
> There's a more to this programme I think than just a Dave Gorman type stunt, as it shows
> *a.* how much people who claim to understand no Welsh really do understand,
> ...




Watched that the other night: really interesting, it's surprising how many 'monoglot' English speakers are supportive of the Welsh language. I myself have recently started learning, and I know many people who've expressed an interest in learning themselves ( a Cardiff council estate incidentally). There is loads of help out there for people interested and there are plenty of multimedia learning materials as well. Though going to class would probaby be better, I've found it quite convenient learning at home, because it's more flexible.


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## durruti02 (Dec 3, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Dunno about your being brainwashed but the historical record is important. So to take one point Lucien Febvre, in The Coming of the Book, shows a number of presses in England prior to 1481 but none in Wales until after 1500. None in the north of England or Ireland either.
> 
> No the social revolution I'm out for would not be monolingual. The political tradition I come from has a long history of producing materials in many languages and supporting the democratic righs of minorities and/or oppressed groups to use their language of choice. The record of the Stalinist states on this question is not germane to my views or politics.
> 
> ...



my point about the use of welsh being progressive in its historical context is 2 fold .. first it is 2 fingers against the sterile homogenised macworld we see .. second i see politics very much as community thing and i believe welsh fits in with that .. that fighting for this language we are saying small/diverse things  and community count .. ( i'll think how to express that better)

 you repeat again that welsh cultural , as it is small, cannot offer the full range of cultures that say english can do .. yes you are right butthat is not the language .. thatis the size of the population really .. . but it is meaningless to this debate .. it is not importnat .. as you say john cale did most of his work in english .. but he still speaks and does some things in welsh .. welsh has been as a language at a differrent level to english for maybe 2 centuries now .. and you have created a straw man by thinking there are people who wish everyone west of the severn do everything in cymraeg .. but i say again the more culture  ( and the less nationalism ) the better


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## neprimerimye (Dec 3, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> my point about the use of welsh being progressive in its historical context is 2 fold .. first it is 2 fingers against the sterile homogenised macworld we see .. second i see politics very much as community thing and i believe welsh fits in with that .. that fighting for this language we are saying small/diverse things  and community count .. ( i'll think how to express that better)
> 
> you repeat again that welsh cultural , as it is small, cannot offer the full range of cultures that say english can do .. yes you are right butthat is not the language .. thatis the size of the population really .. . but it is meaningless to this debate .. it is not importnat .. as you say john cale did most of his work in english .. but he still speaks and does some things in welsh .. welsh has been as a language at a differrent level to english for maybe 2 centuries now .. and you have created a straw man by thinking there are people who wish everyone west of the severn do everything in cymraeg .. but i say again the more culture  ( and the less nationalism ) the better



Community is one of the most over worked words of the last few years. While I have sympathies for what you are saying here I've never yet come across a genuine community. People today live and work lives characterised by atomisation and alienation. Most so called communities are little more than dormitories for the housing of labour units. I cannot see that it makes any difference to this terrible situation what language one speaks.

Sure the language is not the culture but it is the medium in which culture is expressed and communicated. In which case I really cannot think of any reason why an Anglophone Welsh person would find of benefit in learning Cymraeg. Honestly if I were to ask myself what would I get out of learning the Welsh language i cannot think of anything at all.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make in your second paragraph. Certainly Cale functions in both English and Welsh mediums. But his musical contributions are in an idiom informed by the common heritage of both European and American forms. In that context his speaking Welsh seems a personal peculiarity with no other significance than to his person biography.

For the record there are people who want everyone in Wales to speak Cymraeg and to speak it exclusively. But as i consider them to be an insignificant minority of no political or cultural import I've not mentioned them in this or any other thread.


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## lewislewis (Dec 4, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> For the record there are people who want everyone in Wales to speak Cymraeg and to speak it exclusively. But as i consider them to be an insignificant minority of no political or cultural import I've not mentioned them in this or any other thread.



Are they as insignificant a minority as the people that want nation states to disappear?

Btw i'm not a Welsh speaker and don't belong to the 'everyone speak Welsh exclusively' lobby.


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## suzee blue cheese (Dec 4, 2005)

Maybe the reference to 'the British language' meant the language most commonly spoken throughout Britain.  In the same way that Castellano or 'Spanish' is the language most commonly spoken throughout Spain, despite the proliferance of several regional languages.  I doubt he was that concious of the difference though and assumed it to mean english because he doesn't even consider the fact that more than one language is spoken in this group of countries that consitute the not so Great Britain.

First I'll come clean about my dodgy credentials to welshness:  My father was born in Tredegar to a welsh mother, irish father.  My mother in London, to a scottish mother, isle of wight father.  My brother and I were born in London but we moved round a lot til I was 7 when we moved to Port Talbot, later Porthcawl.  I tend to call myself Welsh though realise that this is not strictly speaking true.  However, being a mongrel mix of blood, I define myself by the country in which I lived longest and spent the majority of my school years.  



> people moving to wales should learn cymraeg and people moving to england ..english .. especially if they want citizenship .. if i go to spain i should learn spanish and if i go to barca catalan .. simple



All of the kids in our street were of welsh parentage, apart from us, as far as I know though none spoke welsh either out in the street or at home.  Although it was compulsory to learn welsh at school for the first couple of years of comp, I was never exposed to it outside the classroom which made learning welsh as hard and foreign to my life as learning german or french.  If we had lived in a predominantly welsh speaking community, I'd be a welsh speaker - simple.

When I moved to Spain, I learned castellano.  I didn't strive to learn catalan for the 3 months I lived in Barcelona.  I know some people pick up languages dead easy, and while I'm not too bad, it made more sense to improve my not very good castellano to be able to be understood, no matter how ungraciously anywhere.  Had I by then been able to speak fluent castellano, I'd have immersed myself in learning catalan.  One thing at time, sweet jesus...

If I were to move back to Wales, to a welsh speaking area, I'd learn welsh or at least attempt to.  But to say everyone moving to Wales should learn cymraeg when they may be moving to an area where welsh isn't commonly spoken is impractical and unreasonable imo.


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## niclas (Dec 4, 2005)

This thread seems to have gone on for ever, but I don't know where this business of "everyone moving to Wales should learn cymraeg" emerged from.
Cymuned wants that to apply in majority Welsh-speaking areas but I don't know of anybody else applying it to the whole of Wales.

And "should" is a very different concept to "must".


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## nwnm (Dec 6, 2005)

"One thing at time, sweet jesus..." Surely that should be one DAY at a time? Lena Martell will have your guts for garters!
' "should" is a very different concept to "must".'  Sounds fair enough - theres no compulsion there.


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