# IMPORTANT - rail services to Herne Hill and L'boro Junc face restrictions



## livliv76 (Sep 12, 2012)

Hi  

Herne Hill & Loughborough Junction stations NEED YOU to sign the online Lambeth petition (link below)...and LJ doesn't often ask for much (we just about have a ticket man!)

They are considering stopping the train at Blackfriars instead of continuing it up through the city to Kings Cross and beyond (the current route)...  

...there's an opportunity for us small guys to have a say, so please have your say counted (we need you) and CLICK the link below to go direct to the Lambeth petition website.

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=302&RPID=0&HPID=0

DO IT NOW PLEASE WHILE YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT IT....it's free, confidential, only takes about two mins.

Then, forward the link for others to sign and you have done your good deed and helped to "fight the powers that be" 

Thanks
Liv x
(PS: I do understand that petitioning isn't exactly voting...)


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## editor (Sep 12, 2012)

I've edited the title so it fits with our rules (i.e. gives an idea about the content contained therein)


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## clandestino (Sep 12, 2012)

I asked this on the Tulse Hill thread, but perhaps here is better...

Won't this just mean changing at Blackfrairs? So you'll still be able to get to Kings Cross and beyond, but just with a change at Blackfriars...


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

ianw said:


> I asked this on the Tulse Hill thread, but perhaps here is better...
> 
> Won't this just mean changing at Blackfrairs? So you'll still be able to get to Kings Cross and beyond, but just with a change at Blackfriars...


There was a time that trains didn't stop at LJ except weekday rush hour. My Mum (frail & elderly) uses LJ when she comes to visit. A lot of people put a lot of hard lobbying to get a better service at LJ and I don't want any sort of creep-back to the bad old days when people just didn't consider using that station at all because the service was so crap.


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## clandestino (Sep 12, 2012)

But are they suggesting changing the service so the trains don't stop at LJ? I thought it's just terminating at Blackfriars? I get the service from Tulse Hill, so I'll be affected too - I'm just interested to know the extent of it.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

Well, if the service from King Cross to LJ and beyond is curtailed, people like my Mum, when arriving at KC and finding that getting to LJ is more of a faff, are more likely to get a taxi or the tube and then passenger numbers go down and then...well, who knows?


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## livliv76 (Sep 12, 2012)

ianw said:


> I asked this on the Tulse Hill thread, but perhaps here is better...
> 
> Won't this just mean changing at Blackfrairs? So you'll still be able to get to Kings Cross and beyond, but just with a change at Blackfriars...


 
Hi IanW -

There may be the option to change, but have you ever tried changing _anything_ during rush hour....???

Either way, it's easier to carry on in the same train, PLEASE sign the petition? 
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=302&RPID=0&HPID=0


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## livliv76 (Sep 12, 2012)

ianw said:


> But are they suggesting changing the service so the trains don't stop at LJ? I thought it's just terminating at Blackfriars? I get the service from Tulse Hill, so I'll be affected too - I'm just interested to know the extent of it.


 
...and as far as I am aware, (at least Mon-Fri for sure) they will stop at LJ, it's just that they will terminate trains at Blackfriars. 

Example, today I went to Angel, quick and easy, just change at Kings Cross for one stop on the tube...that would mean changing and waiting, just to continue along the same old route.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

livliv76 said:


> ...and as far as I am aware, (at least Mon-Fri for sure) they will stop at LJ, it's just that they will terminate trains at Blackfriars.


Does that also mean, as I suspect, that coming from Kings Cross you'll have to change at Blackfriars to get to LJ or alternatively wait for a 45 bus?


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## livliv76 (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Does that also mean, as I suspect, that coming from Kings Cross you'll have to change at Blackfriars to get to LJ or alternatively wait for a 45 bus?


 
Probably...........first of all we don't get the overground ginger line (even though it actually passes through LJ), and now this.....don't they like us crossing the river?!

Please sign the petition JUST IN CASE!
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=302&RPID=0&HPID=0​


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh, don't worry, I signed it some hours back.


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## jeremyclyne (Sep 13, 2012)

We've been running a big cross-party cross-borough campaign for some months trying to save the important direct Thameslink service from south London to stations north of Blackfriars. Vital for areas of Lambeth that don't have the Tube.
The consultation ends this Friday after we managed to get the Department for Transport to extend it - they did so because of the "high level of interest".
Good to see the Council's petition has gone over  1,000 signatures.  There's another one set up by a Tulse Hill resident on the Government petitions website http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/36932 - as of tonight that had reached 2,155. And another good one, with names and views, at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-the-thameslink/
We're having a final push this week before the consultation deadline.  The most useful thing for anybody concerned to do is to email a submission, however brief to the consultation address: thameslink@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Information on the proposed changes can be viewed at http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-23
The relevant section of the consultation document is paragraph 7.2 on page 30 - people should answer Question 18, which immediately follows this paragaph. 
We've been copied in to hundreds of emails from people protesting about the loss of this service disrupting their  commuting and travelling arrangements. And lots of people complaining they were attracted to the area precisely because of this direct link to central London, including St Pancras International,  and to Luton Airport and the future interchange with Crossrail at Farringdon.
Also see http://www.facebook.com/groups/219949538066126/permalink/402861923108219/#!/groups/219949538066126/
Strong story on front page of Sep 6 local Guardian as people pick up on the impacts to local regeneration, business and jobs.


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## livliv76 (Sep 13, 2012)

Thanks Jeremy....that's great to hear...!!  

I have also raised a FOI request to TFL regarding Oyster useage beyond Blackfriars....but waiting for a response.  When I do, I will attach an update here on the forum.  x


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## livliv76 (Sep 13, 2012)

_ok I am tired so maybe reading this incorrectly...(taken from consultation document)_

SO basically, its saying that there is a possibility ALL of our trains would terminate at Blackfriars (as predicted), but then basically will stop at the new platform on the WEST side of Blackfriars station.....would that surely mean having to walk through from the terminating platform, to another platform that goes through the 'Thameslink Core'....remember that's a big ol' station to cross (or big shiny new station)

ok this is fairly selfish, but if we complain and stamp our feet enough, perhaps WE will be the lucky trains that continue through the station and onward on our journeys.....eek: just saying)


"Many stakeholders are aware that Network Rail has recommended, ..<it says where>... that Wimbledon loop services should start and terminate at Blackfriars. Network Rail wishes to see trains presented to the Thameslink core punctually, and it sees the crossing moves that the Wimbledon loop trains have to make south of Blackfriars as potential conflicts with other trains, and thus a threat to punctuality. At peak times, from December 2018, it will be possible for up to 16 trains per hour to approach Blackfriars from the south route via Elephant & Castle, but for no more than eight of these to proceed through the Thameslink core. The other eight *must terminate in the new platforms on the west side of Blackfriars station*. All these trains will approach Blackfriars either from the Denmark Hill direction (including Catford loop trains) or from Herne Hill (including Wimbledon loop trains). The question to be decided is which six or eight trains (depending on whether 16 or 18 approach from London Bridge) go through the Thameslink core and which terminate. "


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## Crispy (Sep 13, 2012)

livliv76 said:


> _ok I am tired so maybe reading this incorrectly...(taken from consultation document)_
> 
> SO basically, its saying that there is a possibility ALL of our trains would terminate at Blackfriars (as predicted), but then basically will stop at the new platform on the WEST side of Blackfriars station.....would that surely mean having to walk through from the terminating platform, to another platform that goes through the 'Thameslink Core'....remember that's a big ol' station to cross (or big shiny new station)
> 
> ok this is fairly selfish, but if we complain and stamp our feet enough, perhaps WE will be the lucky trains that continue through the station and onward on our journeys.....eek: just saying)


 
Here's the change they've made to the tracks and platforms at Blackfriars:



The tracks from Loughborough Junction arrive on the left and the tracks from London Bridge arrive on the right. Although the two sets of lines are connected, the junction is _flat_, which means that trains must be halted to allow trains from the other set of tracks to merge. Anyone who's ever found themselves stuck on a tube train coming into Baker Street, Edgware Road, Aldgate, Earl's Court etc. is already familiar with the delays that flat junctions create. "We're just waiting for a train to clear a signal" says the driver while you stare at the tunnel wall.

It is possible to _grade-separate _a junction with flyovers and diveunders. In this way, trains going in opposite directions can pass each other without having to stop and give way. But such junctions take up a lot of space. Much more space than is available on the approach to Blackfriars Station.

Currently, traffic on the Thameslink route is light enough that crossings can be made without disrupting the timetable on each route (most of the time). However, by 2018, 24 trains an hour in each direction will be going through the tunnel, which means that any train coming from the left-hand pair of tracks will be prevented from getting into the tunnel by the near-constant stream of trains on the right-hand tracks.

An additional factor is that the Thameslink trains are being lengthened to 12 cars, which requires corresponding lengthening of station platforms. Many stations on the line through Loughborough Junction are constrained by bridges/junctions/cuttings at either end and are therefore impossible to lengthen without great expense and disruption.

Therefore, in order to maximise the utility of the Thameslink tunnel, all through trains will go via London Bridge or Denmark Hill. All trains from the Sutton Loop will terminate at Blackfriars. By 2018, this will be unavoidable.

So, while I support this cause, and have signed the petition, all it can hope to achieve is a 6 year reprieve.


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## editor (Sep 13, 2012)

*Thread retweeted.


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## livliv76 (Sep 13, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Here's the change they've made to the tracks and platforms at Blackfriars


 
Thanks Crispy....really helpful...and clearly explained

SO,
1) Once the change happens, we will have to physically get from the west side of the station to the east...dammit!  (maybe there will be a crossover in the middle like with some tube stations?)

2) Let's sign the petition and hope that due to sheer numbers, they are good to us in another way.

Petition link:http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=302&RPID=0&HPID=0

*big thanks to all of you that have signed already. Please continue to do so, numbers on the Lambeth petition are already over 1000!


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## Crispy (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes, you'll have to change. It won't be too bad, as there will be a through train every 2.5 minutes in the peaks. Think of it like changing at Kennington on the Northern line. The change is flat at platform level going North, but you'll have to go downstairs and back up again going South.

With traffic on the Loop being fully segregated, and limited to the Western pair of the four tracks through Elephant, there would be scope for reopening Walworth Road and Camberwell stations on that line.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 13, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It won't be too bad, as there will be a through train every 2.5 minutes in the peaks. Think of it like changing at Kennington on the Northern line. The change is flat at platform level going North, but you'll have to go downstairs and back up again going South.


All very well if you are young and fit. Not if you aren't.


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## Crispy (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> All very well if you are young and fit. Not if you aren't.


Of course  "Not bad" as far as changing trains in general goes, I mean.
ie: not like getting to the central line at bank!
The new Blackfriar's has spacious platforms and has lifts to all passageways. To keep the walking to a minimum, use the very front of the train going North, or either end of the train going South.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm really viewing it as what was a viable mode of transport for my very frail Mum...as it is now someone has to accompany her when she travels now because she can't manage on her own, but it was so easy from Kings Cross.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> All very well if you are young and fit. Not if you aren't.


That reminds me of the disabled gates at blackfriars station that opened onto four flights of downwards stairs.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 13, 2012)




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## jeremyclyne (Sep 13, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Here's the change they've made to the tracks and platforms at Blackfriars:
> 
> View attachment 23031
> 
> ...


 

Not so at all, very clear diagram but as the official consultation document http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-23 makes clear, and as confirmed by a senior Department of Transport official at the recent crowded meeting in Streatham, the physical changes that have been made at Blackfriars will not stop the Wimbledon loop trains carrying on through the Thameslink core beyond Blackfriars.  The trouble is that Network Rail wants our Thameslink trains to terminate at Blackfriars.
The current consultation is on the terms of the new franchise for the Thameslink route, i.e. what service the Government will lay down as requirements for any bidding train company.  It's up to the Government, not Network Rail.
This is what the consultation document actually says:
*7.21 Many stakeholders are aware that Network Rail has recommended, in both the South *
*London and London and South East Route Utilisation Strategies, that Wimbledon loop *
*services should start and terminate at Blackfriars. Network Rail wishes to see trains *
*presented to the Thameslink core punctually, and it sees the crossing moves that the *
*Wimbledon loop trains have to make south of Blackfriars as potential conflicts with *
*other trains, and thus a threat to punctuality. At peak times, from December 2018, it will *
*be possible for up to 16 trains per hour to approach Blackfriars from the south route via *
*Elephant & Castle, but for no more than eight of these to proceed through the *
*Thameslink core. The other eight must terminate in the new platforms on the west side *
*of Blackfriars station. All these trains will approach Blackfriars either from the Denmark *
*Hill direction (including Catford loop trains) or from Herne Hill (including Wimbledon *
*loop trains). The question to be decided is which six or eight trains (depending on *
*whether 16 or 18 approach from London Bridge) go through the Thameslink core and *
*which terminate. Trains that use these routes today come from Sutton, Wimbledon, *
*Ashford (via Maidstone East), Rochester, Sevenoaks, Orpington, Beckenham Junction *
*and Kent House. We are seeking respondents’ views on which of these service groups *
*should run through the Thameslink core and which should terminate at Blackfriars.*

We have been campaigning for the Wimbledon loop trains, serving stations including Tulse Hill, Herne Hill and Loughborough Junction, to continue north beyond Blackfriars under the terms of the new franchise.  These areas have benefited hugely from this service for the past 25 years since the Thameslink service was opened up, reviving the same north-south cross-London rail route originally established by the Victorians. Don't let's allow them to take it away from us now.


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## Crispy (Sep 13, 2012)

I was not aware that the decision was still up for debate! Thanks for the clarification


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## livliv76 (Sep 13, 2012)

Ok let's keep signing the petition then!!

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=302&RPID=0&HPID=0

(and thanks for the clarification Jeremy)


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## jeremyclyne (Sep 13, 2012)

livliv76 said:


> Ok let's keep signing the petition then!!
> 
> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=302&RPID=0&HPID=0
> 
> (and thanks for the clarification Jeremy)


and http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/36932
but best of all is individual emailed submissions to the consultation address thameslink@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Doesn't have to be long.


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## MAD-T-REX (Sep 13, 2012)

Terminating trains at Blackfriars makes perfect operational sense and would make the loop more reliable, but changing at Blackfriars will be a real pain. If you're going south, the only interchange that won't add several minutes of walking and waiting to your journey will be travelling at the front of the train and nipping under the platforms via the tunnel at the southern end. If you're going north, you'll avoid the middle of the train like the plague as there's a good chance you'll end up on the most western platform and have quite a walk to the northbound platform. Realistically, the interchange will add at least five minutes to your journey in either direction.

Passenger walkways could have made a big difference, but I understand that the station wasn't allowed to block the view of St Peter's from Westminster, hence the relatively flat roof.


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## gaijingirl (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> All very well if you are young and fit. Not if you aren't.


 
and a nightmare with two little kids and all their stuff (as you well know, I imagine!)


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 14, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> and a nightmare with two little kids and all their stuff (as you well know, I imagine!)


An underground official at Brixton once stopped me from using the escalator with loads of luggage, a pushchair and two children because I had a dog and he refused to help me and watched me struggle, close to tears, up that very steep flight of stairs on the last leg of a very long and fraught journey.


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## gaijingirl (Sep 14, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> An underground official at Brixton once stopped me from using the escalator with loads of luggage, a pushchair and two children because I had a dog and he refused to help me and watched me struggle, close to tears, up that very steep flight of stairs on the last leg of a very long and fraught journey.


 
loads of people who work on public transport are very kind but every now and then a right shit comes along.  Luckily very often other passengers are usually also very helpful.  But when it's fraught, it's very fraught and horrible.  This tends to be when it's very crowded and then you are public enemy #1.   

Exactly why I don't want to be having to change trains - it pisses people off.


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## livliv76 (Sep 17, 2012)

Quick update...this isn't the response to my FoI request from TfL just yet....but for those of you good at stats...(thank DenisL)

Footfall figures for 'our' stations can be found here"

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529

but only mean something when used in comparison to other stations.


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## livliv76 (Sep 17, 2012)

*A BIG THANKYOU TO ALL OF YOU THAT SIGNED THE PETITION* (there were an additional 300 names since I posted on here on Weds (wow!! ), the petition is now closed but you can send emails to thameslink@dft.gsi.gov.uk if you are frustrated about the proposed changes and didn't get round to signing the petition.

Extra thanks too to editor for your tweets and for the forum, and those of you that took the time to add info to this thread )

Liv xx


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## gaijingirl (Oct 21, 2012)

I got this email - I don't really understand what this means though for the Thameslink restrictions?:

Thank you for taking the time to respond to the consultation on the new Thameslink, Southern, and Great Northern franchise.

You may already be aware that the Secretary for State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin, announced on 3 October that the Thameslink, Southern, and Great Northern franchise competition has been paused, pending the independent reviews which are designed to ensure that future competitions are robust and deliver best value for passengers and taxpayers. Full details of his announcement may be found at http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20121003a/

The level of the response to this consultation was exceptionally high. We are currently studying all responses carefully, and expect to publish a summary of the views expressed in due course.

Once again, please be assured that your comments are appreciated and are being considered.

Regards,


Nicola Wood
Franchise Sponsor
Combined Thameslink, Southern, and Great Northern Franchise


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## MAD-T-REX (Oct 21, 2012)

The decision on the route's future is on hold until they sort out the franchising mess.


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## Ms T (Oct 22, 2012)

Which will probably take ages.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 22, 2012)

Damarr said:


> The decision on the route's future is on hold until they sort out the franchising mess.


 
I sort of understood that, but I hadn't realised that was part of the equation in the first place!  I guess this will go on and on.....


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