# Do you speak Welsh?



## Random (May 13, 2010)

And do you think the Welsh language is important? For those not brought up with it, it must be a tough one to learn, with very little in common with other European languages I'd guess.

It was one of the languages picked to be sent out into space on that probe, though, so if aliens discover it and come to Earth then Welsh speakers will be in demand, rather like Blue Whales were in that Star Trek movie.


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## danny la rouge (May 13, 2010)

Prynhawn da.


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## mwgdrwg (May 13, 2010)

Random said:


> It was one of the languages picked to be sent out into space on that probe, though, so if aliens discover it and come to Earth then Welsh speakers will be in demand, rather like Blue Whales were in that Star Trek movie.



There's a high probability of that actually happening.


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## Strumpet (May 13, 2010)

I know bits. I understand more than I can speak. 
Minime is fluent tho


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## zog (May 13, 2010)

just the odd word and phrase. 

I remember driving round Llandudno years ago looking for the Gwesty Hotel and never being able to find the fucker. I learnt that one quickly.


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## fogbat (May 13, 2010)

Raised bilingual, but a little rusty. I've been in London for nearly ten years, and really only speak it with my dad these days.


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## mwgdrwg (May 13, 2010)

zog said:


> just the odd word and phrase.
> 
> I remember driving round Llandudno years ago looking for the Gwesty Hotel and never being able to find the fucker. I learnt that one quickly.



FFAIL


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## Strumpet (May 13, 2010)

zog said:


> I remember driving round Llandudno years ago looking for the Gwesty Hotel and never being able to find the fucker. I learnt that one quickly.


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## Random (May 13, 2010)

llol


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## editor (May 13, 2010)

I don't speak it (on account of it virtually being phased out when I was at school) but I'm tryig to learn a little bit as  I go along.

I dearly wish I spoke Welsh though.


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## Strumpet (May 13, 2010)

editor said:


> I dearly wish I spoke Welsh though.



Me too. Big reason I sent minime to welsh school tbh.


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## Random (May 13, 2010)

editor said:


> I don't speak it (on account of it virtually being phased out when I was at school) but I'm tryig to learn a little bit as  I go along.
> 
> I dearly wish I spoke Welsh though.



How many generations back did your family speak Welsh?  And do you agree with what I said about it being hard to learn as there's no reference points?


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## Santino (May 13, 2010)

Oui


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## danny la rouge (May 13, 2010)

Random said:


> How many generations back did your family speak Welsh?  And do you agree with what I said about it being hard to learn as there's no reference points?


It's an IndoEuropean language, so I imagine there's quite a few reference points.


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## DotCommunist (May 13, 2010)

I'd learn Sindarin Elvish first.


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## danny la rouge (May 13, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd learn Sindarin Elvish first.


Elvish ish the King!


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## existentialist (May 13, 2010)

I speak a bit of motorway welsh, and have had a few "wtf's Gorsaf Station?" moments myself.

I expect I'd have started picking it up quite quickly, if I'd lived in a Welsh-first-language community, but as it is I can recognise a few phrases, pronounce my 'll's correctly, and count to 4.


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## zog (May 13, 2010)

I can count to 5!


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## davesgcr (May 13, 2010)

South West Wales "slang" - but I do have an O level (parents were Welsh speakers but I really have to think hard about it in conversation)


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## cesare (May 13, 2010)

Only the few words my mum and nan used to use when they were trying to say something without us knowing what they meant when we were kids ... the equivalent of spelling W.A.L.K. when your dog's around.

Well, possibly a bit more than that, but not much. My nan used to teach me quite a bit as a kid but I don't remember most of it.


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## 1927 (May 13, 2010)

editor said:


> I don't speak it (on account of it virtually being phased out when I was at school) but I'm tryig to learn a little bit as  I go along.
> 
> I dearly wish I spoke Welsh though.



This


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## editor (May 13, 2010)

Random said:


> How many generations back did your family speak Welsh?  And do you agree with what I said about it being hard to learn as there's no reference points?


My great granddad spoke Welsh.

There's loads of reference points if you're growing up in Wales now, apart from the obvious place names and street signs, most kids have at least a decent grasp of the language, there's loads more Welsh literature, more Welsh TV and even some fairly well known bands sing in Welsh! Eisteddfods have become more popular and - dare I say it - hip and the attitude of people towards the Welsh language has changed completely since when I was a kid.,


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## cesare (May 13, 2010)

There were more welsh speakers on my nan's side of the family than on my grand-dad's. That's probably because she was born and spent a lot of her childhood in north wales before they moved south.


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## Gavin Bl (May 13, 2010)

my dad's family were valleys chapel and so spoke it - but it slipped away from us, so to speak - I'm learning the language, kind of at a foundation/intermediate level. I can still only pick up bits of Pobol Y Cwm, mind.

What does seem positive, when I was a kid it was just spoken by old people - but now it seems alot more young people speak it.


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## toggle (May 13, 2010)

nope, but i appear to be getting the urge to learn cornish


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## Dooby (May 13, 2010)

zog said:


> I can count to 5!



I can count to 12.  Not well, but it counts. All the way up to 12 in fact, as I've said.


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## mwgdrwg (May 14, 2010)

toggle said:


> nope, but i appear to be getting the urge to learn cornish



Cornish is incredibly similar...I can understand it when I read it. The other Celtic languages are completely different though.


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## Random (May 14, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> It's an IndoEuropean language, so I imagine there's quite a few reference points.



Yes, but so is Albanian


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## Gavin Bl (May 14, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Cornish is incredibly similar...I can understand it when I read it. The other Celtic languages are completely different though.



surely Welsh and Cornish are basically the same language stuck into two separate peninsulas for a while?


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## ernestolynch (May 14, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Cornish is incredibly similar...I can understand it when I read it. The other Celtic languages are completely different though.



Breton is a little similar, but not as much as Cornish. Cumbrian is also a Brythonic language.


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## toggle (May 14, 2010)

Gavin Bl said:


> surely Welsh and Cornish are basically the same language stuck into two separate peninsulas for a while?



welsh cornish and breton are fairly closely related, apparently although you can get an idea of welsh to cornish in writing, it's supposed to make little sense when spoken.


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## ernestolynch (May 14, 2010)

toggle said:


> welsh cornish and breton are fairly closely related, apparently although you can get an idea of welsh to cornish in writing, it's supposed to make little sense when spoken.



North Walians say the same about hwntwrs.


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## toggle (May 14, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> North Walians say the same about hwntwrs.


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## ernestolynch (May 14, 2010)

toggle said:


>



Wtf?


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## Proper Tidy (May 14, 2010)

Random said:


> It was one of the languages picked to be sent out into space on that probe, though, so if aliens discover it and come to Earth then Welsh speakers will be in demand, rather like Blue Whales were in that Star Trek movie.



These chaps will come in handy then:

http://welshspaceagency.com/


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## niclas (May 15, 2010)

danny la rouge said:


> It's an IndoEuropean language, so I imagine there's quite a few reference points.



Welsh is a great help if you're learning French.

Tu and vous are readily understood with ti a chi
Common Roman roots for words like Pont, Eglise/Eglwys, Fenetre/Ffenestr, Cheval/Ceffyl etc 

(How did I fail that A Level?)

Don't know much Spanish but I like the fact that Welsh and Spanish share
lladrones/lladron (thieves) and pericoloso/peryglus (dangerous).


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

the welsh language is vulgar.
i work on poble-y-bumfuck,i have to listen to that guttaral revolting cacophany every day.french is a nice language,welsh is shite.


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## ernestolynch (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> the welsh language is vulgar.
> i work on poble-y-bumfuck,i have to listen to that guttaral revolting cacophany every day.french is a nice language,welsh is shite.



BNP troll


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

ive somehow been tagged with the bnp lable which is weird.


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## Belushi (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> ive somehow been tagged with the bnp lable which is weird.



Its because you're a bigot.


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## invisibleplanet (May 15, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Cumbrian is also a Brythonic language.



No, ernesto-bach. You are wrong. Cumbrian is a north-western dialect with remnants of Old Norse, Old English, Cumbric and Scots Gaelic words. 
Cumbric (now extinct) is only visible today in names for places/natural features) and was a northern dialect/variant of Brythonic.


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## ernestolynch (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> ive somehow been tagged with the bnp lable which is weird.



You can't even use English correctly, you illiterate BNP moron.


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## kittyP (May 15, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Breton is a little similar, but not as much as Cornish. Cumbrian is also a Brythonic language.



There is a Welsh speaking community in Argentina!


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

kittyP said:


> There is a Welsh speaking community in Argentina!



All concentrated in one valley (Chubut), only a few thousand of them left though I think.


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You can't even use English correctly, you illiterate BNP moron.



hi ernesto,you racist,sexist cunt.


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

Belushi said:


> Its because you're a bigot.



why? because i think the welsh language is fucking wank?


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> why? because i think the welsh language is fucking wank?



Why do you think it is wank? Can't speak more than a few words myself but I find it a pretty language.


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Why do you think it is wank? Can't speak more than a few words myself but I find it a pretty language.



it sounds ugly.i also dont like the way they have to "welsh" every word.like byrger and teledu.i just dont like it.


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## ernestolynch (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> it sounds ugly.i also dont like the way they have to "welsh" every word.like byrger and teledu.i just dont like it.



Burger being a german word and television a french one.


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> it sounds ugly.i also dont like the way they have to "welsh" every word.like byrger and teledu.i just dont like it.



What do you propose they do? Also ironic as English borrows heavily from all sorts of languages, to a greater degree than most. As Uncle Joe points out.


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> Burger being a german word and television a french one.



you dont say!!!! well fuck me.


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> What do you propose they do? Also ironic as English borrows heavily from all sorts of languages, to a greater degree than most. As Uncle Joe points out.



exactly.it's fine to borrow words but leave them as they are,not every word needs to be welshed.iy shows an insecurity in the language.


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## lizzieloo (May 15, 2010)

I remember Ern's Welsh, it really is rather good.


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> exactly.it's fine to borrow words but leave them as they are,not every word needs to be welshed.iy shows an insecurity in the language.



No it doesn't. Every language that borrows from elsewhere adapts it to their own language and their own alphabet. The spellings of words borrowed from English have to be adapted to the Welsh alphabet, or it wouldn't make sense to Welsh speakers.


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> No it doesn't. Every language that borrows from elsewhere adapts it to their own language and their own alphabet. The spellings of words borrowed from English have to be adapted to the Welsh alphabet, or it wouldn't make sense to Welsh speakers.



not really.the word burger is pronounced "burger" its just spelt byrger.fucking pointless.


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> not really.the word burger is pronounced "burger" its just spelt byrger.fucking pointless.



Because the Welsh alphabet is different you muppet. Ergo, when words are borrowed they have to be adapted to the Welsh alphabet. Y in welsh is the same as U in english.


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## invisibleplanet (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Because the Welsh alphabet is different you muppet. Ergo, when words are borrowed they have to be adapted to the Welsh alphabet. Y in welsh is the same as U in english.



Depends where 'y' is in the word(s), and whether you're north or south, and can also be an ''ee' sound


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## la ressistance (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Because the Welsh alphabet is different you muppet. Ergo, when words are borrowed they have to be adapted to the Welsh alphabet. Y in welsh is the same as U in english.



youre right,and i'm making a rubbish arguement.it still sounds fucking horrible though.


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## mwgdrwg (May 15, 2010)

Well, thread managed to get to a  page and a half before it descended to racism.


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## phildwyer (May 15, 2010)

I had to learn it at school, for five years.  Like all my classmates, I considered it a complete and utter waste of time.  The language has nothing to do with the national identity.


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## editor (May 15, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> The language has nothing to do with the national identity.


In _your opinion_, of course - others may disagree. 

Personally, I feel a little less "Welsh" because I can't speak the language and I dearly wish I'd been taught Welsh at school: after all, learn one language and others often come easier.


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> The language has nothing to do with the national identity.



Who said it did?

I'm personally not that arsed about national identity, but I do wish I could speak Welsh properly.


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## editor (May 15, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> it sounds ugly.i also dont like the way they have to "welsh" every word.like byrger and teledu.i just dont like it.


Why don't you like it? In what way does it offend you?


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## editor (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who said it did?
> 
> I'm personally not that arsed about national identity, but I do wish I could speak Welsh properly.


Perhaps we should have a poll here asking which Welsh posters wish they could speak the language, and if they'd feel a bit more 'Welsh' if they could?


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

editor said:


> Perhaps we should have a poll here asking which Welsh posters wish they could speak the language, and if they'd feel a bit more 'Welsh' if they could?



Sounds like a plan. You can do it though, I'm yet to attempt anything so fancy as a poll


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## phildwyer (May 15, 2010)

editor said:


> Personally, I feel a little less "Welsh" because I can't speak the language and I dearly wish I'd been taught Welsh at school: after all, learn one language and others often come easier.



I'm surprised you didn't learn it at school.  They were fanatical about it at mine, both primary and secondary.  That's probably what put me off actually.


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## phildwyer (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who said it did?



Tons have people have said so to me.  Mostly English.


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## editor (May 15, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> I'm surprised you didn't learn it at school.  They were fanatical about it at mine, both primary and secondary.  That's probably what put me off actually.


Just half an hour a week - and this was at the time when Welsh seemed a pointless language.

I'd love to go to an Eisteddfod and be able to know what the fuck is going on!


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2010)

I grew up in Gwent and didn't learn any Welsh at all. 

I disagree about the language and national identity. Welsh-speakers are kind of Welsh by definition. I felt, for instance, that Plaid Cymru were not for me, that, rightly or wrongly, I was probably too English for them, especially as my parents are English. 

Now I couldn't care less about national identity, but in England I feel Welsh and when I go back to Wales, I feel less than completely Welsh. If I spoke the language, there'd be no doubt about it.

Alfred Russel Wallace described himself as an Englishman who was born in Wales (Usk). I was born near Usk in Newport, but I also grew up in Wales. I don't see how I can be English, yet I don't feel totally Welsh either.


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## Clair De Lune (May 15, 2010)

I know very little, can count in welsh and know some words and phrases but couldn't hold a decent conversation. I would like to learn cos I do feel a bit pathetic being Welsh and not being able to speak the language.


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## gentlegreen (May 15, 2010)

Rather embarrasingly, no.
Considering I live within cycling distance of your fair land.


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## Meltingpot (May 15, 2010)

No, but for some reason I remember the NUT slogan in Welsh;

ein plant, ein dyfydol  (translation: our children, our future).


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## Proper Tidy (May 15, 2010)

Meltingpot said:


> No, but for some reason I remember the NUT slogan in Welsh;
> 
> ein plant, ein dyfydol  (translation: our children, our future).



Not the best of slogans though, is it? Sounds a bit ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer


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## Gavin Bl (May 15, 2010)

littlebabyjesus, when my dad went to Swansea Uni in the early sixties, he shared digs with two lads from Monmouthshire, who said they weren't welsh or english, just from Monmouthshire.

Learning welsh is really important to me, and identity is a big part of it, but more cultural than national identity. Don't care if wales win the rugby or the football, but really feel a strong desire to speak the language.

Personally I think Welsh sounds fantastic, its a language that can be rolled around and wallowed in, the pronunciations and emphases are wonderful - even if a lot of speaker do seem to just mutter the language. 

If you consider how invasive English is as a language round the world, then its impact here is overwhelming, its inevitable that english words will endlessly be entering into welsh, before evolving to a welsh pronunciation. 

It annoys me that they are described as 'borrowed' words, this is like saying that if you were hit in the head with a hammer, you had 'borrowed' the hammer.


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## Meltingpot (May 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not the best of slogans though, is it? Sounds a bit ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer



Now you mention it, I agree; it isn't. 

I got it a bit wrong anyway, it's dyfodol. Oh bollocks.


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## la ressistance (May 16, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Well, thread managed to get to a  page and a half before it descended to racism.



racism? how?


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## Mungy (May 16, 2010)

I'm learning my welsh from here:-
http://www.saysomethinginwelsh.com/home/

Really nice helpful people.


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## Strumpet (May 16, 2010)

Mungy said:


> I'm learning my welsh from here:-
> http://www.saysomethinginwelsh.com/home/
> 
> Really nice helpful people.





*joins*


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I disagree about the language and national identity. Welsh-speakers are kind of Welsh by definition. I felt, for instance, that Plaid Cymru were not for me, that, rightly or wrongly, I was probably too English for them, especially as my parents are English.



Well Plaid supporters may tend to judge your Welshness by whether you speak the language, but no-one else does.  How could they?  80% of Welsh people don't speak Welsh.  Very few people in the capital of Wales speak Welsh.  Most of the famous Welsh people in history didn't speak Welsh.  Most of the best Welsh writers don't know Welsh.

I don't see how speaking Welsh has anything to do with being Welsh, in short.


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## editor (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Well Plaid supporters may tend to judge your Welshness by whether you speak the language, but no-one else does.  How could they?  80% of Welsh people don't speak Welsh.  Very few people in the capital of Wales speak Welsh.


Actually, 11% of Cardiffians can speak welsh, and way over a quarter of the population claim to have at least one language skill in Welsh - and that figure is growing.



> There are also more Welsh speakers in the cities and towns than in the countryside. For example, there are almost 26,000 speakers in rural Powys in mid Wales, but in the south-east we find almost 28,000 in Rhondda-Cynon-Taf, 29,000 in Swansea, and 32,500 in Cardiff.
> 
> Welsh speakers are increasing on two main fronts. The first, and most obvious, is amongst school children. Welsh-medium schools are flourishing and in 1990 it became compulsory for children in English-medium state schools to learn Welsh up to the age of 14. In 1999 the upper age limit was raised to 16. These changes are reflected in the 2001 census, which recorded that 40.8% of all school children between the ages of 5 and 15 can speak Welsh.
> 
> The second growth area in the number of Welsh speakers is the many thousands of adults who are learning the language. As well as the increase in numbers, it is becoming easier to see, hear, and use Welsh from day to day.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilingual/welsh.shtml


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

40% of schoolchildren can speak Welsh?  I don't think so.  I think that the phrase "can speak Welsh" is being used very loosely here.

I probably know 100-200 words of Welsh, but I wouldn't claim to speak it.


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## editor (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> 40% of schoolchildren can speak Welsh?  I don't think so.  I think that the phrase "can speak Welsh" is being used very loosely here.
> 
> I probably know 100-200 words of Welsh, but I wouldn't claim to speak it.


Do you now acknowledge that your claim that "Very few people in the capital of Wales speak Welsh" is total tosh?


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2010)

One in ten is very few, really, given that it's the capital city and very much the centre of culture in Wales – national museum, centre of tv, government, etc, and comfortably the largest city.


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## newme (May 16, 2010)

My ex's kids in Pembrokeshire all speak welsh, the eldest goes to a school where its the first language and the young un is in a nursery where its the same. The nurseries other kids do seem to be made up mostly of the children of rich english hippies however who from what Ive noticed who dont seem to speak it themselves.


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## Belushi (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Well Plaid supporters may tend to judge your Welshness by whether you speak the language, but no-one else does.  How could they?  80% of Welsh people don't speak Welsh.  Very few people in the capital of Wales speak Welsh.  Most of the famous Welsh people in history didn't speak Welsh.  Most of the best Welsh writers don't know Welsh.
> 
> I don't see how speaking Welsh has anything to do with being Welsh, in short.



How long since you lived in Wales Phil? its been 25 years for me but when I go back my valley seems a lot 'welshier' than it did when I was a kid.


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## Belushi (May 16, 2010)

newme said:


> The nurseries other kids do seem to be made up mostly of the children of rich english hippies however who from what Ive noticed who dont seem to speak it themselves.



English immigrantss are often the keenest to send their kids to Welsh language school ime, often because their aware of the benefits that being bilingual bring educationally.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2010)

When I go back to Gwent now, there's still nobody who speaks welsh, but it does seem Welsher. I swear the local accent's changed in the last 20 years – it used to be as close to Forest of Dean (think The Singing Detective) as it was to other Welsh accents, but seems to have lost its FoD edge.


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## editor (May 16, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One in ten is very few, really, given that it's the capital city and very much the centre of culture in Wales – national museum, centre of tv, government, etc, and comfortably the largest city.


32,500 people and over eleven percent of the population - and rising -  is "very few"?


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2010)

For the capital city, that is very few, yes. I accept that it is rising, but it is still a tiny minority, really.

I welcome the resurgence of Welsh. A few decades ago, it was in real danger of extinction. But it is not the national language of Wales. English is. 20% of the population speaks Welsh (maybe that's risen to 25% now); 100% of the population speaks English. Yet you, and others, feel less Welsh for not knowing the language.


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## Belushi (May 16, 2010)

10% is a fairly sizeable minority imho.


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

editor said:


> Do you now acknowledge that your claim that "Very few people in the capital of Wales speak Welsh" is total tosh?



Not at all.

Ten per cent is very few.  And I don't believe even that figure.  Five per cent at most I'd say.


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

Belushi said:


> How long since you lived in Wales Phil? its been 25 years for me but when I go back my valley seems a lot 'welshier' than it did when I was a kid.



It's been 25 years for me too, though I go back several times a year.  I can't say I've noticed an increase in Welsh speaking in Cardiff.  I never heard Welsh spoken there in the 80s, and I never hear it spoken there now.


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yet you, and others, feel less Welsh for not knowing the language.



So they say.  If they really felt that strongly about it, they'd learn to speak it.


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## newme (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> It's been 25 years for me too, though I go back several times a year.  I can't say I've noticed an increase in Welsh speaking in Cardiff.  I never heard Welsh spoken there in the 80s, and I never hear it spoken there now.



Major difference between being able to speak it and speaking it all the time. Ex had it as her primary language, all 3 kids spoke it and so did her mum. Perfectly capable of speaking it but general use was in English. Especially in a larger place such as Cardiff.


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## Proper Tidy (May 16, 2010)

Gwynedd is where it's at. Cymraeg all the way up there.


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## editor (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Ten per cent is very few.  And I don't believe even that figure.  Five per cent at most I'd say.


It doesn't matter what you 'believe' phil, because we're discussing _facts_ here, not your grasped-out-of-thin-air wild guesses.


And it's not ten per cent either.

http://www.statswales.wales.gov.uk/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=3852


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## Clair De Lune (May 16, 2010)

There are 9 Welsh language schools just in Swansea. I hear Welsh spoken in public often.


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

editor said:


> It doesn't matter what you 'believe' phil, because we're discussing _facts_ here, not your grasped-out-of-thin-air wild guesses.



Well the _fact_ is that some people, being asked "do you speak Welsh," will answer "yes" even if all they can say is "rydw i'n hoffi coffi."

So 10% is likely to be exaggerated.


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## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> There are 9 Welsh language schools just in Swansea. I hear Welsh spoken in public often.



And that is the difference between Swansea and Cardiff.

One difference out of many.

Very many.


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## Belushi (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Well the _fact_ is that some people, being asked "do you speak Welsh," will answer "yes" even if all they can say is "rydw i'n hoffi coffi."
> 
> So 10% is likely to be exaggerated.



Equally I know people withy fairly good Welsh who'll answer no as they dont consider themselves fluent.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Well the _fact_ is that some people, being asked "do you speak Welsh," will answer "yes" even if all they can say is "rydw i'n hoffi coffi."
> 
> So 10% is likely to be exaggerated.


If you're going to question official figures, either provide some hard evidence to back up your claims or come up with something a little more scientific than your hunches based on well, _nothing substantial at all.

_Things have changed since you moved away - I certainly hear more Welsh being spoken around Cardiff, although it's clearly still a minority.





> The increase since 1991 in people able to speak Welsh is largely associated with children being taught the language in school. Two fifths (39 per cent) of children aged 10 to 15 were able to speak, read and write Welsh compared with 25 per cent of 16 to 19 year olds.
> 
> http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=447


----------



## toggle (May 16, 2010)

newme said:


> My ex's kids in Pembrokeshire all speak welsh, the eldest goes to a school where its the first language and the young un is in a nursery where its the same. The nurseries other kids do seem to be made up mostly of the children of rich english hippies however who from what Ive noticed who dont seem to speak it themselves.



maybee they are hoping ot learn it from their kids.....


----------



## Belushi (May 16, 2010)

toggle said:


> maybee they are hoping ot learn it from their kids.....



My Mum learnt Welsh because she got fed up of our old man joking about her to us at the dinner table


----------



## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

editor said:


> If you're going to question official figures, either provide some hard evidence to back up your claims or come up with something a little more scientific than your hunches based on well, _nothing substantial at all.
> 
> _Things have changed since you moved away - I certainly hear more Welsh being spoken around Cardiff, although it's clearly still a minority.



Well, I'll bet I spend more time in Cardiff than you do.  And be honest: what percentage of the conversations you hear on the street in Cardiff are in Welsh?

10%?  Hahahahaha.

5%? Hahahahaha.

1%?  Hahahahaha.

0.1%?  No way.

0.01%? Nope.

0.001%? Still no.

0.0001%?  Maybe.  Being _very_ generous.

So I don't know where this 10% of Welsh speakers are hiding.  Maybe they're all deaf mutes.


----------



## ddraig (May 16, 2010)

well i live here and you are talking shit Phil
fel arfer!


----------



## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

ddraig said:


> well i live here and you are talking shit Phil
> fel arfer!



Go ahead then, enlighten us: 

What percentage of the conversations you hear on the street in Cardiff are in Welsh?  

Not counting your own.


----------



## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

editor said:


> [/I]Things have changed since you moved away - I certainly hear more Welsh being spoken around Cardiff, although it's clearly still a minority.



Well it looks like Ddraig has slunk away without answering, so just to make it absolutely clear for those who may not be familiar with Cardiff....

You basically _never _hear Welsh spoken there.  The Ed's statement that it is "a minority" is misleading, because it implies that it is a significant minority.  

It is not.  You'll hear more Somali spoken in Cardiff than Welsh--a _lot_ more.  And don't let anyone tell you different.


----------



## llion (May 16, 2010)

Welsh is my first language and I feel more comfortable speaking and writing Welsh than English. I lived in Cardiff for over 10 years and noticed a definite increase in the amount of Welsh heard on the street/on buses etc. A good deal of this might have been down to an increase in Welsh-speakers from other parts of Wales moving to Cardiff for economic reasons, but there's also been a definite change of attitude towards the Welsh language within a significant proportion of people who didn't speak Welsh IMO. For example, the negative attitude towards the language expressed in writers' such as Gwyn Thomas and Alun Richards's novels and stories from the fifties, sixties and seventies is less prevalent in more recent Anglo-Welsh literature. I would argue, however, that although there's been substantial improvements, the status of the Welsh language is still not secure and should be improved by corporations and private businesses being obliged legally to recognise the right of Welsh speakers to have services provided in the language of their choice. I think this is a very apposite quote on the importance of language diversity from Jay Griffiths's brilliant book, Pip-Pip: A Sideways Look at Time: 

'When forests are lost and species made extinct, biodiversity is threatened and the health of the ecosystem undermined. Working on the same paradigm, linguistic diversity matters immensely, for the variety of thoughts thinkable depends on the language available to express them; the health of the human mind depends on as wide a variety of languages as possible. To lose linguistic biodiversity is to lose untold ways of thinking and varieties of thought; to lose biodiversity of the mind.'


----------



## phildwyer (May 16, 2010)

llion said:


> I lived in Cardiff for over 10 years and noticed a definite increase in the amount of Welsh heard on the street/on buses etc.



Which did you hear spoken more often: Welsh or Somali?

I think we all know the answer.  So maybe we should have all the road signs in Cardiff in Somali then?  After all, everyone who speaks Welsh also speaks English, but many Somali speakers do not.  Surely they should have their language on all the traffic signs, just like Welsh speakers?

No?  Why not?

And with the answer to _that_ question, we get onto dodgy territory indeed...


----------



## llion (May 16, 2010)

Depends on which bit of Cardiff you're in, in my experience. In Butetown and Grangetown, probably more Somali. In Canton, Roath, Cathays, agian in my experience, definitely more Welsh. 
I'd have no objections personally to Somali or any other language being on road signs in specific areas where a high enough proportion of the local population speak that particular language. The campaign in the sixties and seventies to secure bilingual road signs in Wales was after all not about restricting the use of any other language but about ensuring that the Welsh language was recognised officially and legally in all spheres of public life and was given equality and parity with English by the government.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Which did you hear spoken more often: Welsh or Somali?
> 
> I think we all know the answer.  So maybe we should have all the road signs in Cardiff in Somali then?  After all, everyone who speaks Welsh also speaks English, but many Somali speakers do not.  Surely they should have their language on all the traffic signs, just like Welsh speakers?
> 
> ...



Where is the dodgy territory?

According to the 2004 Welsh Language Use Survey 611,000 people in Wales - from a population of 2.9 million - speak Welsh. That is hardly insignificant.

I live in one the most Anglophone areas of Wales, only a few miles from the border and with 40% of the population from outside of Wales, yet it is far from unusual to hear spoken Welsh, and in many of the villages around the town it is very common indeed.

I don't speak Welsh myself but I've never understood the hostility towards the language. Why?


----------



## niclas (May 16, 2010)

Phil,

Assuming there are 10% of the population who speak Welsh in Cardiff, most will be having conversations in English with the 90% of their friends, family, workmates or neighbours who don't speak Welsh. So the % of conversations will, by necessity, be far lower than 10%.

In Cardiff (and my home town) I don't go into a pub or shop and ask for stuff in Welsh unless I know the barman/shop assistant. In Caernarfon I would because it's 80% Welsh speaking so the odds are pretty good.

Not sure why you're so hostile to the Welsh language (this isn't the first time we've had this kind of debate), but it's a shame when so many others see growing bilingualism in a positive light.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> It is not.  You'll hear more Somali spoken in Cardiff than Welsh--a _lot_ more.  And don't let anyone tell you different.


That must be quite a remarkable achievement considering the fact that there are 32,500 Welsh speakers in Cardiff, and the _highest_ estimate for the Somali population is 10,000 - but it may actually be as low as 4,000.

Keep up the great facts, phil.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2010)

ddraig said:


> well i live here and you are talking shit Phil
> fel arfer!


----------



## meurig (May 17, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Well it looks like Ddraig has slunk away without answering, so just to make it absolutely clear for those who may not be familiar with Cardiff....
> 
> You basically _never _hear Welsh spoken there.  The Ed's statement that it is "a minority" is misleading, because it implies that it is a significant minority.
> 
> It is not.  You'll hear more Somali spoken in Cardiff than Welsh--a _lot_ more.  And don't let anyone tell you different.



That is bollocks. I hear quite a lot of Welsh spoken in Cardiff - 60% of my family are Welsh speaking; and all Cardiff born and bred.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2010)

meurig said:


> That is bollocks. I hear quite a lot of Welsh spoken in Cardiff - 60% of my family are Welsh speaking; and all Cardiff born and bred.


Yep. He's talking total bollocks alright. 

It's really not that unusual at all to hear Welsh spoken in the cafes, bookstores, pubs of Cardiff - and even on the terraces. Maybe he thinks they're taking Somalian?


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

niclas said:


> Phil,
> 
> Assuming there are 10% of the population who speak Welsh in Cardiff, most will be having conversations in English with the 90% of their friends, family, workmates or neighbours who don't speak Welsh. So the % of conversations will, by necessity, be far lower than 10%.



Right.  So the question should not be "can you speak Welsh," but "_do_ you speak Welsh?"  Far more people would fall into the first category than then second.



niclas said:


> Not sure why you're so hostile to the Welsh language (this isn't the first time we've had this kind of debate), but it's a shame when so many others see growing bilingualism in a positive light.



Of course I'm not hostile to the Welsh language: how could anyone be hostile to a language?  

What I'm hostile to is the idea that those who speak Welsh are somehow more Welsh than those who don't.  That is a widespread and growing idea, and a very unhealthy one.

I'm also hostile to nationalism on principle, and the Welsh language is frequently used as a tool in the nationalist cause.

I'm hostile to making Welsh a compulsory language in schools, when the vast majority have no interest in learning it.  It's not as if Welsh kids are so well-educated that they can afford to devote four or five hours a week to something that they will never use after leaving.

And above all, I'm hostile to professional discrimination in favor of Welsh speakers, of which there is a great deal in Wales.


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

editor said:


> It's really not that unusual at all to hear Welsh spoken in the cafes, bookstores, pubs of Cardiff - and even on the terraces.



Depends what you mean by "unusual" I suppose.

Let's be specific: how often do you hear Welsh spoken in Cardiff?

Once a day?  Once a week?  

My personal estimate would be once a month, if that.  I hear Somali much more often, because while they may not be as numerous, Somali speakers often speak no English.  In contrast, all Welsh speakers know English, and most of them use English more than they use Welsh.

I also find it interesting to note that the enthusiasm expressed by many people towards Welsh does not often extend to actually _learning to speak it._

Why is that I wonder?  Could it have something to do with the fact that they know they will never use it?


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

llion said:


> The campaign in the sixties and seventies to secure bilingual road signs in Wales was after all not about restricting the use of any other language but about ensuring that the Welsh language was recognised officially and legally in all spheres of public life and was given equality and parity with English by the government.



Why should it be given equality and parity with English when: (a) only 20% of the population speak it, and (b) all Welsh-speakers are also fluent in English?


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 17, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Where is the dodgy territory?
> 
> According to the 2004 Welsh Language Use Survey 611,000 people in Wales - from a population of 2.9 million - speak Welsh. That is hardly insignificant.
> 
> I



But of those people about half consider themselves fluent and in my experience many people vastly overestimate their language speaking abilities so you could probably halve that figure again leaving about 250,000 truly fluent speakers. So about 10%. Not bad and more kids are learning to speak it and no doubt changing it so that the oldsters will find it increasingly difficult to understand them.


----------



## Clair De Lune (May 17, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Right.  So the question should not be "can you speak Welsh," but "_do_ you speak Welsh?"  Far more people would fall into the first category than then second.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you feel about compulsory French in school then? My daughter is 8 and she is learning both right now. She has recently been in two assemblies, one entirely in French, one in Welsh. How you can imply that that is hindering her education is beyond me....but then I am pretty sure you are just trolllllin


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 17, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> And above all, I'm hostile to professional discrimination in favor of Welsh speakers, of which there is a great deal in Wales.


FWIW, I don't think phil's trolling. This is a serious point – would anyone like to address it:

When is it legitimate to specify Welsh-speaker in a job description?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 17, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> But of those people about half consider themselves fluent and in my experience many people vastly overestimate their language speaking abilities so you could probably halve that figure again leaving about 250,000 truly fluent speakers. So about 10%. Not bad and more kids are learning to speak it and no doubt changing it so that the oldsters will find it increasingly difficult to understand them.



Well I don't know about that - seems a bit cut and shunt double guessing the figures. Far as I know the survey asks if you are competent in conversation, writing and reading.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> FWIW, I don't think phil's trolling. This is a serious point – would anyone like to address it:
> 
> When is it legitimate to specify Welsh-speaker in a job description?



Does it go on much? I work in the public sector in Wales yet I've never been asked to learn Welsh. And of course the legislation doesn't apply to the private sector.


----------



## invisibleplanet (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> FWIW, I don't think phil's trolling. This is a serious point – would anyone like to address it:
> 
> When is it legitimate to specify Welsh-speaker in a job description?



When it's a job that involves teaching or writing or communicating in Welsh.


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> How do you feel about compulsory French in school then? My daughter is 8 and she is learning both right now. She has recently been in two assemblies, one entirely in French, one in Welsh. How you can imply that that is hindering her education is beyond me....but then I am pretty sure you are just trolllllin



Welsh is an interesting language, and I'm glad I know the little I do.  Of course it doesn't hinder one's education in itself.  

But making it compulsory is daft in my opinion.  It's a policy that is based on politics not pedagogy.  And that is reason enough to oppose it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 17, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Welsh is an interesting language, and I'm glad I know the little I do.  Of course it doesn't hinder one's education in itself.
> 
> But making it compulsory is daft in my opinion.  It's a policy that is based on politics not pedagogy.  And that is reason enough to oppose it.



What about the benefits of bilingualism for children's education? The fact that bilingual countries produce better exam results across the whole curriculum?

You keep asserting the Welsh language is about politics. I'm no Welsh nat, I know lots of people who aren't Welsh nats who think the language has a place.


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> But of those people about half consider themselves fluent and in my experience many people vastly overestimate their language speaking abilities so you could probably halve that figure again leaving about 250,000 truly fluent speakers. So about 10%.



That would be my guess too.

The thing is, a lot of people will express sympathy with advocates of Welsh out of sentimental nationalism.  Ask them to actually _learn_ it and they'd run a mile.  Many of them don't even live in Wales.  Some of them aren't even Welsh.

If I had a penny for every English person who's reproached me for not wanting to speak Welsh, I'd have the train fare to Paddington.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 17, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> When it's a job that involves teaching or writing or communicating in Welsh.


When is it reasonable for a Welsh-speaker to expect to be spoken to in Welsh?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> When is it reasonable for a Welsh-speaker to expect to be spoken to in Welsh?



When is it reasonable for an English speaker to expect to be spoken to in English??

What do people think is inherently unfair about seeking to give Welsh equal status with English?


----------



## editor (May 17, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> But of those people about half consider themselves fluent and in my experience many people vastly overestimate their language speaking abilities so you could probably halve that figure again leaving about 250,000 truly fluent speakers. So about 10%. Not bad and more kids are learning to speak it and no doubt changing it so that the oldsters will find it increasingly difficult to understand them.


What is your experience of interviewing Welsh speakers?


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> What do people think is inherently unfair about seeking to give Welsh equal status with English?



It's unfair because everyone speaks English, but only a small minority speak Welsh.  

If there were Welsh-speakers who didn't speak English, that would be one thing.  But there are no such people.

If you ask people why Welsh should be treated equally with English, they'll usually say something like: "well it's the language of the nation."  

Such a view reveals a distinctly dubious conception of what a "nation" actually is--one that is not a million miles away from blood, soil and race.


----------



## Clair De Lune (May 17, 2010)

phildwyer; said:
			
		

> I'm hostile to making Welsh a compulsory language in schools, when the vast majority have no interest in learning it.  It's not as if Welsh kids are so well-educated that they can afford to devote four or five hours a week to *something that they will never use after leaving.*
> 
> And above all, I'm hostile to professional discrimination in favor of Welsh speakers, of which there is a great deal in Wales.



You also contradict yourself here Phil. Which one is it? Are our kids learning Welsh for nothing, or will their future employers discriminate against them for not learning it?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 17, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> It's unfair because everyone speaks English, but only a small minority speak Welsh.
> 
> If there were Welsh-speakers who didn't speak English, that would be one thing.  But there are no such people.
> 
> ...



Yeah that is right, Welsh speakers are Nazi's obsessed with volk.

There are Welsh speakers who's grasp of English isn't great. I know, I've met some.

And even if we accept your flimsy premise, what odds does it make? The ambition isn't to replace English but to give Welsh equal status.

The fact remains that more than 600,000 people speak Welsh in Wales. In a fair few communities, Welsh is the primary language - perhaps you should go to Harlech or Caernarfon and see. These people have a right to communicate in their first language with either state or private company.


----------



## phildwyer (May 17, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> You also contradict yourself here Phil. Which one is it? Are our kids learning Welsh for nothing, or will their future employers discriminate against them for not learning it?



Do-oh!

Tbh since I now live thousands of miles away, this debate doesn't really affect me as it does y'all.  So I'll pipe down for a bit and see what others have to say.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 17, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> The fact remains that more than 600,000 people speak Welsh in Wales. In a fair few communities, Welsh is the primary language - perhaps you should go to Harlech or Caernarfon and see. These people have a right to communicate in their first language with either state or private company.


Really? So a non-Welsh speaker's right to employment with either state or private company is secondary to this right, is it? 

It is dodgy ground to start talking of 'rights' here. One person's right to be spoken to in Welsh means another person does not have the right to go for certain jobs.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Really? So a non-Welsh speaker's right to employment with either state or private company is secondary to this right, is it?


No one has a "right" to be employed by a  private company. 

I think you'll find that decision is very much up to the recruitment manager, whose job it is to match appropriate skills to the person.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Really? So a non-Welsh speaker's right to employment with either state or private company is secondary to this right, is it?
> 
> It is dodgy ground to start talking of 'rights' here. One person's right to be spoken to in Welsh means another person does not have the right to go for certain jobs.



That is a nonsense argument. As I say, I work in the public sector - which already has an obligation to provide Welsh language services - yet I am employed and I have not been asked to learn Welsh. There is a responsibility to ensure customers have access to Welsh language provision - that does not mean every worker has to be bilingual.

The legislation should apply to the private sector too. Of course there needs to be a limit - enforcing taxi drivers to be bilingual, for example, would be lunacy - but of course primary Welsh speakers should be able to access Welsh language services for banking, utilities, etc.

Fundamentally, why should people brought up in Welsh speaking homes, in Welsh speaking communities, and through Welsh medium education, be then forced to communicate in a language in which their knowledge and understanding is limited? Any more than I should be forced to communicate in Welsh? Double standards, me thinks.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 17, 2010)

editor said:


> No one has a "right" to be employed by a  private company.
> 
> I think you'll find that decision is very much up to the recruitment manager, whose job it is to match appropriate skills to the person.


If noone has a right to be employed by a private company (which I dispute), then noone has the right to be spoken to in Welsh by employees of a private company either. You can't have it both ways.

I don't object to the promotion of Welsh, but such a project has numerous pitfalls, and appealing to the idea that it is 'up to the recruitment manager' is, I'm afraid, nonsense. Left to market forces, Welsh would die out completely – it is only through intervention that it is surviving, and the decision to save Welsh was a political one, not an economic one.


----------



## Random (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Left to market forces, Welsh would die out completely – it is only through intervention that it is surviving, and the decision to save Welsh was a political one, not an economic one.


gosh, how awful


----------



## nightowl (May 17, 2010)

Dwin siarad typin bach
spelling might be crap but learnt quite a bit when I was in Merthyr. Probably wouldn't take too much to pick up quite a bit of it again. If I ever moved back I'd definitely make a real push for fluency. In terms of it's importance, of course it is, it's part of the country's heritage, it's identity. Good work by all those who have struggled down the years to keep it going. If businesses, etc had had any say in the matter it would have died out. It's only because of the campaigners that it's still used at anything approaching a healthy level


----------



## editor (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If noone has a right to be employed by a private company (which I dispute), then noone has the right to be spoken to in Welsh by employees of a private company either. You can't have it both ways.


Who is "forcing" non Welsh speakers to be spoken to in Welsh? Could you give some examples?


----------



## ernestolynch (May 17, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If noone has a right to be employed by a private company (which I dispute), then noone has the right to be spoken to in Welsh by employees of a private company either. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> I don't object to the promotion of Welsh, but such a project has numerous pitfalls, and appealing to the idea that it is 'up to the recruitment manager' is, I'm afraid, nonsense. Left to market forces, Welsh would die out completely – it is only through intervention that it is surviving, and the decision to save Welsh was a political one, not an economic one.



You're a filthy minded racist nazi wanker.


----------



## chilango (May 18, 2010)

Yes. I can.

Or rather, yes I _could_.

I've forgotten virtually all of it right now. But give me 6 months back and I'd be fine again.

I went to a Welsh medium primary school, then moved away, forgot it all, relearnt it and did a GCSE in it, and then forgot it again.

Came back, started picking it up again, and almost, _almost_ got talked into doing my PGCE in it .

The Wlpan course is great for picking it up fast.


----------



## niclas (May 18, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Why should it be given equality and parity with English when: (a) only 20% of the population speak it, and (b) all Welsh-speakers are also fluent in English?



(b) suggests that we should all get on with our lives in English.
(a) is an ever changing figure. A century ago it was 50%. It may yet become 50%. What then?

Our attitudes to minorities say a lot about the majority. Yours smacks of intolerance.


----------



## niclas (May 18, 2010)

Originally Posted by littlebabyjesus  said:
			
		

> Left to market forces, Welsh would die out completely – it is only through intervention that it is surviving, and the decision to save Welsh was a political one, not an economic one.



Historically the decision to kill the Welsh language was a political one (Acts of Union, Blue Books, Welsh Not). Despite this state oppression, Welsh survived because it was a community language.

Free-market capitalism would rather have one language and indeed one Coca-Mcburger culture to deal with globally. So it's possible that market forces would have killed off the Welsh language had people not decided otherwise.

The decision to save the language is one that came about after a sustained campaign of peaceful direct action lasting from 1962 that altered perceptions and forced the political establishment to react. 

I find it rather inspiring that a state that once tried to kill the language is  now helping to revive it.


----------



## llion (May 18, 2010)

Historically the reason Cymdeithas yr Iaith/The Welsh Language Society argued for equality and parity for the Welsh language was that this was rightly felt to be a key step towards reversing, or at least arresting, the steep decline in the number of Welsh speakers which had been recorded in census after census from the early 20th century to 1961. Given that Welsh was not recognised or used by the government in most areas of public life from the Acts of Union in 1536 to this period, including birth certificates, driving licenses, electoral forms, most of the curriculum in schools, and myriad other official documents, equal status in the eyes of the law was considered essential to encourage and enable more use of Welsh in day to day life. 

Arguably, had this reconigtion not been achieved, the decline of the Welsh language would have continued, especially since rural depopulation particulary affected the most Welsh speaking areas of Wales in the 1960s and 1970s. On the second point of every Welsh speaker being fluent in English I would also argue that this is debatable. My father for example was certainly not comfortable speaking English as he had very little ocassion to use it within his work (as a carpenter/joiner) or his everyday family life. The problem came when he had to fill in VAT forms etc in his second languague and a language which was not of his choice. Official recognition and status for the language helped loads of other people who were in the same situation I'd argue.


----------



## Ben Bore (May 18, 2010)

Unless the Welsh speaking Nazis have taken over by Saturday and either executed, evicted or already converted the remaining non-Welsh speakers, some of you might be interested in BayLingo (crap name), which will be taking place in Millennium Centre, Cardiff on Saturday 22nd of May.  There's free tatser Welsh lessons in the morning (see PDF for timetable) and a chance to quiz current Welsh learners about their experiences.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

niclas said:


> (b) suggests that we should all get on with our lives in English.
> (a) is an ever changing figure. A century ago it was 50%. It may yet become 50%. What then?
> 
> Our attitudes to minorities say a lot about the majority. Yours smacks of intolerance.



My attitude is more malleable than you might think.  My grandparents were Welsh-speakers, and I know that some people are not comfortable speaking English.  So I'm willing to be convinced on all aspects of the issue, especially in view of the historical repression of the language.

However, at present my feeling is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, and that the language has become a divisive force.  I find it particularly reprehensible to suggest that Welsh-speakers are in any sense "Welsher" than Anglophones.


----------



## fogbat (May 19, 2010)

They are, though.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 19, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> it is only through intervention that it is surviving, and the decision to save Welsh was a political one, not an economic one.


It was a political decision to try to kill it off in the first place.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

fogbat said:


> They are, though.



That's bollocks thinking.

I'm all for Welsh language equality but if people want to feel Welsh then whether they speak Welsh or not is pretty irrelevant.

What is more, this stuff about Welsh speakers being more Welsh than non-Welsh speakers is only ever heard about, ime, when non-Welsh speakers express it as a fear, as Phil has done. I know a lot of Welsh speakers and a lot of Welsh nats and they would all reject that idea.

The decline of Welsh is as much if not more economic tbh - clearly there was a political agenda, particularly in the 18th & 19th centuries, to marginalise the Welsh language - yet at the turn of the 20th century it was still spoken by the vast majority. However, the industrialisation of Wales in the late 19th & 20th century is the greatest contributing factor, as migration  into Wales hit new heights - and that was evidently born of economic factors.

I personally think Welsh language issues should be separated from notions of nation and nationalism, both by critics and supporters - irrespective of all that, here is an ancient language once spoken throughout Europe and which is still spoken day to day by thousands. That is enough reason to wish to see it survive.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

fogbat said:


> They are, though.



See, this is what really, really pisses the 80% of us who don't speak Welsh off.

This is what creates the hostility to the language of which people here have been complaining.

Your attitude is widespread, and alarming.  While there are people like you around, you won't find much support for your language among Anglophones.


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Your attitude is widespread, and alarming.



Alarming yes but widespread no.

As I say, I most often hear this sentiment expressed by English speakers to justify hostility towards the language. I have never heard this sentiment expressed by Welsh speakers. I'm sure it is, but clearly it isn't widespread.


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## mwgdrwg (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> See, this is what really, really pisses the 80% of us who don't speak Welsh off.
> 
> This is what creates the hostility to the language of which people here have been complaining.
> 
> Your attitude is widespread, and alarming.  While there are people like you around, you won't find much support for your language among Anglophones.



There are misconceptions on _both_ sides of this argument. Now can't we all just have a nice cup of tea and a slice of buttery bara brith. Eh?


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## mwgdrwg (May 19, 2010)

I soooooo would have had internetz-rage in this thread many years ago. I have mellowed so much in my thirties


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## ddraig (May 19, 2010)

Phil talking for the masses again, self proclaimed bitter figurehead!

good post PT


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I have never heard this sentiment expressed by Welsh speakers.



Really?  Have you never read R.S. Thomas or Saunders Lewis?

Indeed I would argue that the entire impetus behind the push for "parity" is based on the assumption that Welsh speakers are more authentically Welsh than English speakers.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Really?  Have you never read R.S. Thomas or Saunders Lewis?
> 
> Indeed I would argue that the entire impetus behind the push for "parity" is based on the assumption that Welsh speakers are more authentically Welsh than English speakers.


If there was a poll in Wales with non Welsh speakers being asked if they'd feel 'more Welsh' or not if they spoke the language, what do you think the answer might be?

I'd certainly feel a bit more Welsh if I spoke Welsh. In fact, it was a source of embarrassment when we were staying in Cardigan, although I did try.

The rise in Welsh language bands/writing and the fact that so many parents are sending their kids to Welsh schools rather reflects the changing attitude to the language. 

Yours seems stuck somewhere in the 1980s, I'm afraid.


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Really?  Have you never read R.S. Thomas or Saunders Lewis?
> 
> Indeed I would argue that the entire impetus behind the push for "parity" is based on the assumption that Welsh speakers are more authentically Welsh than English speakers.



Well, no, I didn't know either Thomas or Lewis when they were alive, so have never heard them express such views, although granted I've read them.

I've no doubt that these views are held, my point was that they are not mainstream; ime they are marginal. Quite besides, you will find such views in any national or linguistic group, surely? Nothing peculiar to Welsh speakers.

Again in my experience, it is the 'born again' Welsh speakers - those who have learnt later in life - who tend to be the most evangelical about the language, rather than those brought up as Welsh speakers or bilingually. Not quite sure what that tells us.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 19, 2010)

niclas said:


> Historically the decision to kill the Welsh language was a political one (Acts of Union, Blue Books, Welsh Not). Despite this state oppression, Welsh survived because it was a community language.
> 
> Free-market capitalism would rather have one language and indeed one Coca-Mcburger culture to deal with globally. So it's possible that market forces would have killed off the Welsh language had people not decided otherwise.
> 
> ...



I don't deny any of that. I was responding to editor's specific point, that is all – to clarify that the promotion of Welsh is not an _economic_ decision. 

I've been pretty clear on this thread that I welcome the encouraging of Welsh, but there are potential pitfalls to its promotion if it is done in a dogmatic way, and language can be used by nationalists to further their narrow agendas. The case of Latvia, where the 50% Russian-speaking population is effectively now a second tier of society, excluded from politics, is a warning of how language can be used to assert a particular brand of national identity, replacing one injustice with another. 

It's a difficult subject to broach because fuckwits like ernestolynch will pounce on you, and attempts by the likes of fogbat to lighten the mood are doomed to failure.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> If there was a poll in Wales with non Welsh speakers being asked if they'd feel 'more Welsh' or not if they spoke the language, what do you think the answer might be?



I think it would be "no" in Cardiff, Newport and the Valleys, and "yes" elsewhere.



editor said:


> I'd certainly feel a bit more Welsh if I spoke Welsh.



Why don't you learn to speak it then?

Speaking for myself, I was born in Wales to a Welsh family, educated in Wales, lived in Wales until I was 18.  That makes me as Welsh as it gets, for better or worse.


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## mwgdrwg (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Really?  Have you never read R.S. Thomas or Saunders Lewis?
> 
> Indeed I would argue that the entire impetus behind the push for "parity" is based on the assumption that Welsh speakers are more authentically Welsh than English speakers.



I would argue that you have one fuck of an inferiority complex.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well, no, I didn't know either Thomas or Lewis when they were alive, so have never heard them express such views, although granted I've read them.



Well they are linguistic supremacists, no?

I did meet Lewis once, if you can call it that.  I was about 16 and poll-watching for the Labour Party, and he came in to vote.  I asked him for his number and he rudely pushed past me, swearing in Welsh.  I came _this_ close to kicking him up the bum.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> If there was a poll in Wales with non Welsh speakers being asked if they'd feel 'more Welsh' or not if they spoke the language, what do you think the answer might be?



Tell you what, let's find out.

New thread coming up...


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> I think it would be "no" in Cardiff, Newport and the Valleys, and "yes" elsewhere.


Funny how the amount of people speaking the language is growing in those areas then, eh?



> ...recent census data reveals a reversal in decades of linguistic decline: there are now more Welsh speakers under five years of age than over 60.





phildwyer said:


> Why don't you learn to speak it then?


I'm still trying actually but it's hard when you're (a) shit at language and (b) don't socialise with any Welsh speakers.

I have, however, paid for an iPhone Welsh app that is rather good, so am slowly getting better at it  


phildwyer said:


> Tell you what, let's find out.
> 
> New thread coming up...


Feel free but it's hardly going to be  representational of anyone other than the minority of Welsh posters here (if indeed it is only Welsh people who respond). 

I think this article sums it up fairly well and reflects the growth and importance of the language.


> Welsh as a first language is largely concentrated in the less urban north and west of Wales, principally Gwynedd, inland Denbighshire, northern and south-western Powys, Ynys Môn, Carmarthenshire, North Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, and parts of western Glamorgan, although first-language and other fluent speakers can be found throughout Wales. However, Cardiff is now home to an urban Welsh speaking population (both from other parts of Wales and from the growing Welsh medium schools of Cardiff itself) due to the centralisation and concentration of national resources and organisations in the capital.
> 
> Speaking Welsh is an important part of Welsh identity, but not an essential part. Welsh people actively distinguish between 'Cymry Cymraeg' (Welsh-speaking Welsh), Cymry di-Gymraeg (non Welsh speaking Welsh) and Saeson (English). Parts of the culture are however strongly connected to the language — notably the Eisteddfodic tradition, poetry and aspects of folk music and dance. However, Wales has a strong tradition of poetry in the English language.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Feel free but it's hardly going to be  representational of anyone other than the minority of Welsh posters here (if indeed it is only Welsh people who respond).



Mae public poll yn berwi a'r other thread.

Dim Saesneg os gwelwch yn dda.  Dim cheatio neither.


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Well they are linguistic supremacists, no?



They _were_, yes. Do you suppose there are no English language supremacists? Or any language, for that matter?

Your point would only stand if you were stating the case for the abolition of all languages associated with nations or peoples, to be replaced by Esperanto


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> They _were_, yes. Do you suppose there are no English language supremacists? Or any language, for that matter?



Of course there are.  In both of the countries where I live now, the USA and Turkey, there are massive linguistic supremacist movements that are trying (and often succeeding) to ban the use of other languages altogether.

That is why I have no time for linguistic supremacism.


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## fogbat (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> That's bollocks thinking.
> 
> I'm all for Welsh language equality but if people want to feel Welsh then whether they speak Welsh or not is pretty irrelevant.
> 
> ...



Oh, you're absolutely right. I just wanted to wind Phil up 



phildwyer said:


> See, this is what really, really pisses the 80% of us who don't speak Welsh off.
> 
> This is what creates the hostility to the language of which people here have been complaining.
> 
> Your attitude is widespread, and alarming.  While there are people like you around, you won't find much support for your language among Anglophones.



Win.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Of course there are.  In both of the countries where I live now, the USA and Turkey, there are massive linguistic supremacist movements that are trying (and often succeeding) to ban the use of other languages altogether.
> 
> That is why I have no time for linguistic supremacism.


And the relevance to the Welsh language is?


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Of course there are.  In both of the countries where I live now, the USA and Turkey, there are massive linguistic supremacist movements that are trying (and often succeeding) to ban the use of other languages altogether.
> 
> That is why I have no time for linguistic supremacism.



But why Welsh specifically? Unless you believe that is the sole motivation for the growth of Welsh, in which case I would say you were wrong - it may be a motivation for some, but certainly not all.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> And the relevance to the Welsh language is?



I can't remember now.  I don't even know why I'm having this argument.  That's the internet for you.  Whose round is it anyway?


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> And the relevance to the Welsh language is?



OK, I remember now.  The relevance is that some people in Wales want to privilege the Welsh language, just as some people in American want to privilege English and some people in Turkey want to privilege Turkish.

All as bad as each other in my view.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> But why Welsh specifically? Unless you believe that is the sole motivation for the growth of Welsh, in which case I would say you were wrong - it may be a motivation for some, but certainly not all.



Agreed.  I'd say that most people's advocacy of Welsh boils down to sentimentality, which is harmless enough.  But nationalism is historically the scourge of Europe, and always wants watching.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> OK, I remember now.  The relevance is that some people in Wales want to privilege the Welsh language, just as some people in American want to privilege English and some people in Turkey want to privilege Turkish.
> 
> All as bad as each other in my view.


Actually, they just want _parity_, but don't let that stop your hysterical hyperbole.


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## ddraig (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> OK, I remember now.  The relevance is that some people in Wales want to privilege the Welsh language, just as some people in American want to privilege English and some people in Turkey want to privilege Turkish.
> 
> All as bad as each other in my view.



who in Wales today is calling for that? link(s) please


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Actually, they just want _parity_



Yes, but since everyone in Wales speaks English, achieving parity would necessitate an aggressive campaign to privilege Welsh, so that everyone in Wales speaks it too.

As the Welsh Language Society puts it:

"The Welsh Language Act of 1993 declared that Welsh should be treated on the basis of equality with English. However this falls short of what is needed and we are calling for Welsh and English to be declared official languages in Wales...."

http://cymdeithas.org/2004/05/31/what_is_cymdeithas_yr_iaith.html


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, but since everyone in Wales speaks English, achieving parity would necessitate an aggressive campaign to privilege Welsh, so that everyone in Wales speaks it too.


"Aggressive" as in English speaking parents willingly putting their children into Welsh schools?


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, but since everyone in Wales speaks English, achieving parity would necessitate an aggressive campaign to privilege Welsh, so that everyone in Wales speaks it too.
> 
> As the Welsh Language Society puts it:
> 
> ...



You'd actually probably quite like Cymdeithas if you got to know what they were about, Phil - they don't fit the stereotype of reactionary nationalists at all. Forget the Saunders Lewis crap - for a start, they've stated numerous times that equality of languages won't happen under capitalism. Their 1984 (?) manifesto was a masterpiece. Not entirely convinced of their tactics myself - 'non-violent direct action' which usually involves daubing slogans about the place and getting banged up for a few weeks - always thought they'd be better trying to build mass campaigns etc. Still, I like them. Pretty left-wing.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> You'd actually probably quite like Cymdeithas if you got to know what they were about, Phil - they don't fit the stereotype of reactionary nationalists at all. Forget the Saunders Lewis crap - for a start, they've stated numerous times that equality of languages won't happen under capitalism. Their 1984 (?) manifesto was a masterpiece. Not entirely convinced of their tactics myself - 'non-violent direct action' which usually involves daubing slogans about the place and getting banged up for a few weeks - always thought they'd be better trying to build mass campaigns etc. Still, I like them. Pretty left-wing.



Fair enough.  As I say, I'm willing to be convinced on this issue.

I always like the Kairdiff Language Society myself: their symbol was the Aardvaark.


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## ddraig (May 19, 2010)

*Welsh assembly translation decision backed by review*

even the fucking WAG aren't enforcing it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/wales_politics/8692117.stm



			
				bbc said:
			
		

> Speeches made in the Welsh assembly in English should not be translated into Welsh in the record of proceedings, an independent review has concluded.



stupid decision 
£250k saved, big deal


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