# Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

When and where are protests?


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## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Well, I'm going to urinate on MI5 for a start.

Fucking pencils?!


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## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

Lots of anti-Brexit, pro-migrant demonstrators congregated around the shard at the moment, apparently (according to Twitter).


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## weepiper (Jun 24, 2016)

Glasgow and Edinburgh had solidarity with migrants demos this evening. Couple of thousand at the Edinburgh one by the look of the pictures


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## chilango (Jun 25, 2016)

You'd hope so given the passion/bile/anger the result seems to have generated amongst Remainers.

Care that much? Take to the streets.


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## weepiper (Jun 25, 2016)

Protests held in Glasgow and Edinburgh over EU vote ‘racism’

Hundreds march through Bristol after Brexit vote


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## Geri (Jun 25, 2016)

Monday 6.30.


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## mk12 (Jun 25, 2016)

Geri said:


> Monday 6.30.


Why?


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## treelover (Jun 25, 2016)

Maybe when they have finished they could go to the estates and take some stuff for the foodbanks for the thickos.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

treelover said:


> Maybe when they have finished they could go to the estates and take some stuff for the foodbanks for the thickos.


yeh, no remainers live on council estates


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## treelover (Jun 25, 2016)

That is the supposition these protesters seem to make, we are all ignorant, thickos.etc.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 25, 2016)

treelover said:


> That is the supposition these protesters seem to make, we are all ignorant, thickos.etc.



Fucking give it up.


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## treelover (Jun 25, 2016)

No.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 25, 2016)

Should one be taking to the streets to protest about a democratic decision though? I think plenty are not giving brexit a chance. The time for insurrection may or may not come in a few years time.


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## treelover (Jun 25, 2016)

Fucking give it up, 

apparently that is the answer to your concerns.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 25, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Should one be taking to the streets to protest about a democratic decision though? I think plenty are not giving brexit a chance. The time for insurrection may or may not come in a few years time.



The link up above about the Scottish protest, fucking right they should!


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## mk12 (Jun 25, 2016)

I just don't see what the purpose of these demonstrations is. If they're angry at those that voted to leave, perhaps they should go and protest outside their houses?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Should one be taking to the streets to protest about a democratic decision though? I think plenty are not giving brexit a chance. The time for insurrection may or may not come in a few years time.




No they should not, they don't believe in democracy, as demonstrated by their desire to stay in the EU.

I imagine your town will respect the will of the people though


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 25, 2016)

The left should be using the opportunity to shape the form that the exit takes. Calling for another referendum just leaves that space open for the right. _Make_ this a Lexit!


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The left should be using the opportunity to shape the form that the exit takes. Calling for another referendum just leaves that space open for the right. _Make_ this a Lexit!



Labour's too busy trying to oust Corbyn. FFS


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## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

treelover said:


> That is the supposition these protesters seem to make, we are all ignorant, thickos.etc.


yeh. but tbh you do seem to go out of your way to prove that in at least one case they're right.


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## treelover (Jun 25, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The left should be using the opportunity to shape the form that the exit takes. Calling for another referendum just leaves that space open for the right. _Make_ this a Lexit!



Yes, like Mason alludes to, they should own Exit.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 25, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The link up above about the Scottish protest, fucking right they should!


The Scots voted to stay in the UK. I think probably what swung it was that nobody could give an answer about the currency they would use. The EU made it plain that if Scotland voted to leave the UK there would be no automatic entry into the EU & it could take years before they could join so how would it work if they voted for independence now? They would not be in the EU & Westminster stated quite clearly they could not use the £ if they left the UK.


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 25, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Should one be taking to the streets to protest about a democratic decision though?


I do find it a slightly odd thing too (voted Remain, for what it's worth).

However, I do think there's merit to pro-Europe/migrant/people events as a reactionto the worrying increase in "go home" sentiment, that could be attended by Remain and Leave voters (because I'm pretty sure a lot of them still like Europeans, if not the EU) alike.


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## Dr. Furface (Jun 25, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> The Scots voted to stay in the UK. I think probably what swung it was that nobody could give an answer about the currency they would use. The EU made it plain that if Scotland voted to leave the UK there would be no automatic entry into the EU & it could take years before they could join so how would it work if they voted for independence now? They would not be in the EU & Westminster stated quite clearly they could not use the £ if they left the UK.


McBitcoins


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> The Scots voted to stay in the UK. I think probably what swung it was that nobody could give an answer about the currency they would use. The EU made it plain that if Scotland voted to leave the UK there would be no automatic entry into the EU & it could take years before they could join so how would it work if they voted for independence now? They would not be in the EU & Westminster stated quite clearly they could not use the £ if they left the UK.




Spain won't allow them to join or they'll lose Catalonia. Independent Scotland would be very independent indeed. Especially with the rest of the world fracking their oil for a fraction of the cost of the North Sea stuff.

Cameron's opened such a can of worms, Millipede's dad may have been the fella who hated Britain, pig fucker would seem to be the man who hated the whole fucking planet.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Spain won't allow them to join or they'll lose Catalonia. Independent Scotland would be very independent indeed. Especially with the rest of the world fracking their oil for a fraction of the cost of the North Sea stuff.
> 
> Cameron's opened such a can of worms, Millipede's dad may have been the fella who hated Britain, pig fucker would seem to be the man who hated the whole fucking planet.


well said


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## treelover (Jun 25, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I do find it a slightly odd thing too (voted Remain, for what it's worth).
> 
> However, I do think there's merit to pro-Europe/migrant/people events as a reactionto the worrying increase in "go home" sentiment, that could be attended by Remain and Leave voters (because I'm pretty sure a lot of them still like Europeans, if not the EU) alike.



If they are combined with say support for collections for food banks, etc, they may get popular support, etc.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> well said




Thank you.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Thank you.


you're welcome  you come out with these well thought out posts on a frequent basis


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you're welcome  you come out with these well thought out posts on a frequent basis



And then I open a third bottle and ruin it all. C'est la vie.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And then I open a third bottle and ruin it all. C'est la vie.


something else we'll lose from the invocation of article 50 

'say lavvy' has quite different connotations


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## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

In 2014 Spain's government said Scotland's EU bid could take several years. No actual refusal that I recall. I would wager things might be different this time should Scotland vite for independence. It's not as if Catalonia has the grounds of being taken out of the EU to support a bid for independence.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 25, 2016)

Would an independent Scotland within the EU be one of the countries that would receive more than it pays in? How would the taxpayers of the net contributor countries feel about that after losing the contributions from the departing rest of the UK?


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## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

Guess Scotland would be a net beneficiary, but hey, the EU would no longer have to worry about the inward collapse of a member state.


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## Geri (Jun 25, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Why?


 
I think it is in support of refugees and because Bristol voted to remain. 

I'm not going, I need to be home in time for the football.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 26, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Labour's too busy trying to oust Corbyn. FFS


Fuck Labour, it was always a dead end. We should concentrate on _labour_.


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## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> Fucking give it up,
> 
> apparently that is the answer to your concerns.


'They' should do this, 'they' should do that. Your protest's all wrong, you should have done blah.

Do _you_ ever do anything beyond armchair heckling of other people's - usually supposedly aligned - politics?


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## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

chilango said:


> You'd hope so given the passion/bile/anger the result seems to have generated amongst Remainers.
> 
> Care that much? Take to the streets.


Too busy discussing whether to apply for Irish passports and panic buying Brie


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 26, 2016)

chilango said:


> When and where are protests?


No need to take to the streets, there is A Petition.


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## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> No need to take to the streets, there is A Petition.


16m more names ought to do it?


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## Geri (Jun 26, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Should one be taking to the streets to protest about a democratic decision though? I think plenty are not giving brexit a chance. The time for insurrection may or may not come in a few years time.


 
People have the right to take to the streets and protest about anything they want to.


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## captainmission (Jun 26, 2016)

Well it seem they are in Manchester. From the title -Manchester Stays- it seems like anti-democratic whiners calling for the referendum to be ignored. The blurb is actually quite good and what should be happening- accepting the leave decision, a show of solidarity with EU workers in the UK and a leave campaign can be pushed in a progressive direction. Unfortunately the comment indicate it'll be a bunch of anti-democratic whiners calling for the referendum to be ignored.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

Why would people protest? It was a referendum, protesting against a referendum would be ridiculous

A lot of people are really upset and based on the reaction of the 'winners' to me it seems like an incredibly stupid decision. Not that exit people are thick, just that this was a fucking stupid decision and the whole thing has been a depressing shitshow


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

I've protested against plenty of "democratic decisions" in the past. 

The more people out on the streets the better at this point.

(Not that I support calls for a 2nd ref or to ignore the result or anything like that. I don't. But let's get all sides out against Westmibster now.)


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

chilango said:


> I've protested against plenty of "democratic decisions" in the past.
> 
> The more people out on the streets the better at this point.
> 
> (Not that I support calls for a 2nd ref or to ignore the result or anything like that. I don't. But let's get all sides out against Westmibster now.)



I don't protest because the it just seems like protests are a circus. I don't live in England anyway, I don't pay taxes or live there so I don't really have the right to vote on things like this, I am really upset that I am going to lose my EU citizenship and that the UK and the EU have got this big kick in the nuts, both institutions do deserve to be kicked in the nuts, but there are much worse alternatives on offer. 
The idea that this is going to trigger socialism and sort out Yorkshire, Durham and Wearside is fucking ridiculous to me. The North East has been treated like shit for decades, but that wasnt' what the referendum was about!


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## mk12 (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I just don't see what the purpose of these demonstrations is.





chilango said:


> I've protested against plenty of "democratic decisions" in the past.
> 
> The more people out on the streets the better at this point.
> 
> (Not that I support calls for a 2nd ref or to ignore the result or anything like that. I don't. But let's get all sides out against Westmibster now.)



They're not out against Westminster though. They're out against the electorate.


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> They're not out against Westminster though. They're out against the electorate.



Struggle changes people.


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## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> They're not out against Westminster though. They're out against the electorate.


Apart from its directness, how is this any different to protesting Tory austerity? The electorate voted for that too.


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 26, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Apart from its directness, how is this any different to protesting Tory austerity? The electorate voted for that too.


Arguably the electorate didn't vote for that exact thing, like they did in the EU ref. Plus a lot more people voted to Leave than voted for the Tories...


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 26, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> I am going to lose my EU citizenship


are you?


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## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Arguably the electorate didn't vote for that exact thing, like they did in the EU ref. Plus a lot more people voted to Leave than voted for the Tories...


Meh. Of exact things, 'Leave' is arguably more vague than the Tory mandate, at least in 2015 after that stall had been well and truly set out. Leave to do what?


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> are you?



If we leave the EU then yes, once it's all gone through I'm not an EU citizen anymore, I work in EFL and I'll have to pay to work in European countries if I want work there now, and probably spend a month in a concentration camp with Nigel Farage throwing souvenirs of London buses and telephone boxes at me while I stitch Man Utd footballs together
I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!


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## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2016)

I suspect you'll not make the day. Because today's the day isn't it?


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## Kaka Tim (Jun 26, 2016)

Why should the will of a (small) majority  be sacrosanct if it fucks over everybody else? At the last elections a democratic mandate was won  to fuck the 25% poorest  people up the arse - with the affluent old leading the charge cos they saw it as benefitting themselves-  should those affected just roll over and accept it cos "democracy"?
With the brexit cluster fuck - 16-18 year olds, who will be affected more than anyone, were excluded from voting whilst those who will be least affected - the over 60s - voted overwhelmingly for out.
It was insane to put such a drastic change to a simple 50/50 referendum decision on a yes/no answer. Thats not meaningful democracy - that's not engaging people in the decision making process - its an easily manipulated, distorted pile of bullshit.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I suspect you'll not make the day. Because today's the day isn't it?



Nobody listens to you anymore


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Why should the will of a (small) majority  be sacrosanct if it fucks over everybody else? At the last elections a democratic mandate was won  to fuck the 25% poorest  people up the arse - with the affluent old leading the charge cos they saw it as benefitting themselves-  should those affected just roll over and accept it co "democracy"?
> With the brexit cluster fuck - 16-18 year olds, who will be affected more than anyone, were excluded from voting whilst those who will be least affected - the over 60s - voted overwhelmingly for out.
> It was insane to put such a drastic change to a simple 50/50 referendum decision on a yes/no answer. Thats not meaningful democracy - that's not engaging people in the decision making process - its an easily manipulated, distorted pile of bullshit.



And the whole referendum on both sides was so horrible and negative that even if you are geeky and read up on stuff you still had no idea what's going on


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

democracy


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

Well, it seems they are starting to take to the streets. Bristol and Nottingham have both popped up on my FB feed. 

I hope they can be turned from from blaming Brexiters to blaming Westminster.

I may to and cobble something together to leaflet any protests that happen near me.

I also hope that Lexiters are getting ready to mobilise as and when.

These moments of chaos and anger whilst the bubble is preoccupied is the time to try and shift the agenda of these momentous times.


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## treelover (Jun 26, 2016)

How is 'left behind britain' who voted for exit going to see these protests?


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## Sherman Tank (Jun 26, 2016)

I must admit I do wonder what the people in charge were thinking of, putting something like this to the popular vote. When I go to the doctors I don't want them to poll my neighbors to see what is wrong with me!


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> How is 'left behind britain' who voted for exit going to see these protests?



Well it might damage the sincere affection and admiration they have for the metropolitan liberals I s'pose.

Seriously, we're past that point. Long past it.

"Left behind Britain" needs to figure out what it wants, and what it's going to do to get it, sharpish because the status quo will reassert itself soon enough.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

Sherman Tank said:


> I must admit I do wonder what the people in charge were thinking of, putting something like this to the popular vote. When I go to the doctors I don't want them to poll my neighbors to see what is wrong with me!



On the other hand, when I go to the doctor to see what's wrong with me, I don't want some chancer from Poland with a stethoscope telling me that I need to drink more vodka redbull

Ridiculous


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## Dandred (Jun 26, 2016)

EXCLUSIVE: Brexit ‘2nd Referendum Petition’ A 4 Chan Prank: BBC Report It As Real


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 26, 2016)

Sherman Tank said:


> I must admit I do wonder what the people in charge were thinking of, putting something like this to the popular vote. When I go to the doctors I don't want them to poll my neighbors to see what is wrong with me!



You claim to 'know quite a bit about a wide range of things'; unfortunately this doesn't seem to include the differences between politics and medicine...have fun with your empty comparison.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Sherman Tank (Jun 26, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You claim to 'know quite a bit about a wide range of things'; unfortunately this doesn't seem to include the differences between politics and medicine...have fun with your empty comparison.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



We employ experts to make decisions for us in many areas of our lives, politics is normally no different. Why should it have been in this case?


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 26, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> On the other hand, when I go to the doctor to see what's wrong with me, I don't want some chancer from Poland with a stethoscope telling me that I need to drink more vodka redbull
> 
> Ridiculous


Fuck's sake 

That's as valid a comment as suggesting someone from England would prescribe pints of ale.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fuck's sake
> 
> That's as valid a comment as suggesting someone from England would prescribe pints of ale.



It worked for 200 years, now we have American medicine and doctors from god knows where and this year alone Muhammed Ali and David Bowie and Prince died thanks to so called 'European Medicine'

Shocking


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 26, 2016)

Aaaand we're done.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Aaaand we're done.



and it's goodnight from me

and it's goodnight from him


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 26, 2016)

Sherman Tank said:


> *We employ experts to make decisions for us in many areas of our lives, politics is normally no different.* Why should it have been in this case?


 
You're just reaffirming what you don't know; albeit in perhaps even starker terms. As I said have fun.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## stethoscope (Jun 26, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> On the other hand, when I go to the doctor to see what's wrong with me, I don't want some chancer from Poland with a stethoscope telling me that I need to drink more vodka redbull
> 
> Ridiculous



Off you fuck.

Yours,

stethoscope (who had a Polish granddad)


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Off you fuck.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> stethoscope (who had a Polish granddad)



Don't they have sarcasm in self righteous land?


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## stethoscope (Jun 26, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> Don't they have sarcasm in self righteous land?



My 'sarcasm' detector is running a high bullshit level right now.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> My 'sarcasm' detector is running a high bullshit level right now.



so that's a no then

your sarcasm detector is shit, you need a new one to stop you looking like a prat


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2016)




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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 26, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


>



Who is it then? Or just a random fuckin' idiot?


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> However, I do think there's merit to pro-Europe/migrant/people events as a reactionto the worrying increase in "go home" sentiment, that could be attended by Remain and Leave voters (because I'm pretty sure a lot of them still like Europeans, if not the EU) alike.


There's now this, Trafalgar Square on Tue evening. Just down the road from where I work so may well pop along. Sounds like it was originally set up as a protest to the result and some are unhappy about the change. 



> Details
> In the aftermath of Brexit, we Stand Together.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 26, 2016)

Here's a slogan/song for any protests:

"We want our croissants back!!!


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## ginger_syn (Jun 26, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> It worked for 200 years, now we have American medicine and doctors from god knows where and this year alone Muhammed Ali and David Bowie and Prince died thanks to so called 'European Medicine'
> 
> Shocking


Are you just pulling random words out of a bag or are you just chugging vodka


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## treelover (Jun 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> There's now this, Trafalgar Square on Tue evening. Just down the road from where I work so may well pop along. Sounds like it was originally set up as a protest to the result and some are unhappy about the change.



It needs to embrace the left behinds, not sure how, but its unlikely they will.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 26, 2016)

Here's one already on the street. A lovely girl but have to say she doesn't do the remainers any favours and seems quite confused about the cost of travel to France.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 26, 2016)

No Bigots
No Borders (for capitalism's low cost exploitable mobile workforce)


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## YouSir (Jun 26, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Here's one already on the street. A lovely girl but have to say she doesn't do the remainers any favours and seems quite confused about the cost of travel to France.




Didn't the SWP support Leave? Not that she's a member, obviously, but they never miss a chance with those placards.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 26, 2016)

Here's another one, he thinks Lidl will be withdrawn. OMG, how are the brits going to eat when ALL trade is cut off from europe. 

Who's thick?
We're thick.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 26, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Didn't the SWP support Leave? Not that she's a member, obviously, but they never miss a chance with those placards.


 
not that i'm an swp supporter, but surely if swp were arguing for leave, they were not arguing for leave on the same basis that ukip and the even further right people were...


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## YouSir (Jun 26, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not that i'm an swp supporter, but surely if swp were arguing for leave, they were not arguing for leave on the same basis that ukip and the even further right people were...



Sure they weren't, but they were still handing out placards at an anti-Brexit rally. Opportunism is all, usual for them.


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## smokedout (Jun 28, 2016)

looks like the old bill have managed to spike a lot of the protests planned: Pro-remain rallies cancelled over safety fears


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

smokedout said:


> looks like the old bill have managed to spike a lot of the protests planned: Pro-remain rallies cancelled over safety fears


Too many people turning up. I think it's a relief for many - the bristol one was organised by the local NUS who sold it as a refugee support demo then switched it and were swamped with angry i'm not pro-eu responses. Opportunism all round.


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## smokedout (Jun 28, 2016)

Seems to be two still organised in London, this and next saturday, both look organised by individuals and not usual suspects, so plod will walk all over them until John Rees turns up and explains how to lose properly


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## chilango (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Too many people turning up. I think it's a relief for many - the bristol one was organised by the local NUS who sold it as a refugee support demo then switched it and were swamped with angry i'm not pro-eu responses. Opportunism all round.



Opportunism coupled with inexperience? entitlement? naivety?

Remainers, I suspect, that are taking to the streets are perhaps basing their actions upon an image or echo of protest gained from clictivism on social media.

I doubt many know what happens next once they're on the streets. And why would they?

Leavers will face similar problems too if taking to the streets. 

The absence of combative extra-parliamentary experiences will show I fear.

Of course, either side can get through this, and develop new tactics and strategies of their own.

We can help.

Maybe.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2016)

People are meeting up in Trafalgar Square anyway—already some folk there. You can't just cancel it the same day....


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

chilango said:


> Opportunism coupled with inexperience? entitlement? naivety?
> 
> Remainers, I suspect, that are taking to the streets are perhaps basing their actions upon an image or echo of protest gained from clictivism on social media.
> 
> ...


Problem is, if their 'sides' are based solely on the referendum result, they're taking sides in the wrong way for any coherent demo about anything. That applies equally to 'remainers' and 'leavers'. Any demo based primarily on the referendum can only be horribly divisive and counter-productive.


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## emanymton (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Here's one already on the street. A lovely girl but have to say she doesn't do the remainers any favours and seems quite confused about the cost of travel to France.





YouSir said:


> Sure they weren't, but they were still handing out placards at an anti-Brexit rally. Opportunism is all, usual for them.


Is it an anti-Brexit rally though? I can't watch the video as I am on my phone and low on data. If it is just an ant-rascism pro-imigration thing, then it is perfectly consistent politically for them to support both. I can't see them actually turning up to support an Anti-Brexit demo. 

Anyway isn't it about time they set up a front group to call a demo demanding the government follows the will of the people and pushes ahead with Brexit?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People are meeting up in Trafalgar Square anyway—already some folk there. You can't just cancel it the same day....


Quite a lot of people given the rain and alleged cancellation. Probably about 2/3 or 3/4 of the square full, which is several thousand.


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## Sherman Tank (Jun 28, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You're just reaffirming what you don't know; albeit in perhaps even starker terms. As I said have fun.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



No I'm not my good fellow, it is a well known fact that democracy in the UK is based around electing representatives who then work with paid experts to develop the policies that they think will benefit the country, if we don't like what they develop we chuck them out at the next election. I don't know why EU membership was considered to be a different matter.


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## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

The EU is different because it is about who gets to make and implement some policies on our behalf. Same as AV was a referendum because it was about selecting how we choose who gets to make and implement some policies on our behalf. It's also why we have a separate election for councils, mayors etc. I've no idea what the purpose is of police commissioner elections though, so can't help with that one.


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## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

Jon Snow wetting himself, thousands of well informed liberal types outside parliament live.


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## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Jon Snow wetting himself, thousands of well informed liberal types outside parliament live.


Saw that live...

Small point; how did you gauge their 'well informed' status?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

"Vote again"


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

And "google"


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Yes. "google".


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Yes i know it will say _facts _or something.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People are meeting up in Trafalgar Square anyway—already some folk there. You can't just cancel it the same day....



Fuck em, they represent a mollycuddled generation of priviliged rich kids, having a tantrum about how unfair democracy is because the chavs got to vote.

The real issue here is not them and their self interests as liberal individuals but the level of inequality britian has reached, as has been so eloquently outlined in the financial times.

Who is battling for better living conditions for the unrepresented and demonized working class in a hostile work market flooded with cheap labour by capitalism? This lot of luvvies?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> And "google"


Hmmm...

Some were better than others...obviously...


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> "Vote again"




Fuck right off.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Fuck right off.


Somewhat naive to think that's a necessary pre-condition for Brexit to be cancelled.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

Spoiled brats


----------



## keybored (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> "Vote again"



"11 mil"?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

keybored said:


> "11 mil"?


Well, there you go...see, Remain won really.


----------



## JimW (Jun 28, 2016)

keybored said:


> "11 mil"?


There is a '.' if you squint, 1.1 he's claiming.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

1.1ml?


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

One banner reads


brogdale said:


> Well, there you go...see, Remain won really.



Yes, because they're more highly educated about democracy and things like that. This is all about middle class condescension, which has reached an all time high in Britain.


----------



## keybored (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, there you go...see, Remain won really.


I'm not sure what they're claiming. All the abstainers (would have been a bit more than 11m anyway I think) would now turn up and vote remain? Or 11m who voted leave have changed there mind?

I know it's hard to get context onto a catchy placard and all.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

JimW said:


> There is a '.' if you squint, 1.1 he's claiming.


Ah, yes...this.


----------



## JimW (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> 1.1ml?


That's what I reckon it reads and have a vague feeling it tallies with some claimed survey stat.
ETA brogdale has it


----------



## keybored (Jun 28, 2016)

JimW said:


> There is a '.' if you squint, 1.1 he's claiming.


Sorry, thought you were joking. Zoomed in now.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Ah, yes...this.


----------



## JimW (Jun 28, 2016)

keybored said:


> Sorry, thought you were joking. Zoomed in now.


 No, it's him who's joking even if he doesn't think so.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Ah, yes...this.



Propaganda


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

I was doing an imperial measure joke ffs,


----------



## keybored (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I was doing an imperial measure joke ffs,


ml is metric.


----------



## JimW (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I was doing an imperial measure joke ffs,


In millilitres? What fresh brexit madness is this?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

keybored said:


> ml is metric.


I know. The joke was about being forced to use metric.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Propaganda


As ever, it's how the polling is interpreted...but the polling data is all there...and the methodology was fine/normal...(p19)
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Final-MoS-Post-Brexit-Tables-240616SWCH-1c0d3h3.pdf


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

That suggests UKIP vote down with Labour and Conservative bang on equal, Labour vote up from last time. Fuck the Corbyn haters.

Also 43.7% of voting 18-35 voted leave (35.5 leave, 45.7 remain; for her own sake let's ignore the daft young female who can't remember how she voted a few days ago). It's not quite the same as other stats we've seen. Regretful remain minus regretful leave suggests still a leave result.

Who the hell is voting for Jeremy Cunt FFS? And who are these people who want Boris as PM? Oh, got to the end, bad bad bad for Corbyn, but no obvious leader options either.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

This could have gone in any number of threads tbh...


> The rally today in Trafalgar Square was officially called off after 50,000 people said they would attend, but many turned out regardless and then moved down Whitehall to continue their protest in Parliament Square.
> 
> *Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron addressed the crowd in Trafalgar Square insisting that the Brexit vote “is reversible”. *
> The Lib Dems have vowed to campaign to take the UK back into the EU.
> ...


LD logic.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2016)

Who is Fallon again?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Just bizarre.  And he thought that speech through.


----------



## classicdish (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Here's one already on the street. A lovely girl but have to say she doesn't do the remainers any favours and seems quite confused about the cost of travel to France.



I just noticed that this video is by Graham W Phillips famous for his pro-Russia Ukraine 'embedded reportage' stuff.

On checking out his youtube channel I see that his recent stuff also includes 'interviewing' (ie harassing) Ukraine supporters on their way into their game versus Germany seemingly in an attempt to get footage of them attacking him. He also recently went to the Jungle in Calais and walked around randomly shoving his camera into peoples faces and barking questions at them until he eventually got 'kicked out'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

classicdish said:


> I just noticed that this video is by Graham W Phillips famous for his pro-Russia Ukraine 'embedded reportage' stuff.
> 
> On checking out his youtube channel I see that his recent stuff also includes 'interviewing' (ie harassing) Ukraine supporters on their way into their game versus Germany seemingly in an attempt to get footage of them attacking him. He also recently went to the Jungle in Calais and walked around randomly shoving his camera into peoples faces and barking questions at them until he eventually got 'kicked out'.


He's proper nutjob but proper RT. Walking through a warning flare = full on fascist attack. He joined UKIP last year.


----------



## Corax (Jun 28, 2016)

So, that Remain protest in Westminster this evening...

What are their demands exactly?  That Parliament ignore the democratic result of the referendum?


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

Bristol one seems pretty large, bit of an amble, etc


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

Corax said:


> So, that Remain protest in Westminster this evening...
> 
> What are their demands exactly?  That Parliament ignore the democratic result of the referendum?


Yeah, who the fucking hell do they think they are? That's capital's job.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bristol one seems pretty large, bit of an amble, etc




Doesn't seem to be any police?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 28, 2016)

Corax said:


> So, that Remain protest in Westminster this evening...
> 
> What are their demands exactly?  That Parliament ignore the democratic result of the referendum?



Fallon seems to think so!


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

Ernest young things debate legality of vote.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

> Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron addressed the crowd in Trafalgar Square insisting that the Brexit vote “is reversible”.
> The Lib Dems have vowed to campaign to take the UK back into the EU.
> 
> Farron said: “In politics, as in life, two things are always the case for me: One, if you lose, you have the grace to accept the defeat, but you never, ever, ever give up. We as a community must stand together, this is reversible. The people of Britain are decent, outward-looking people. We will carry on direct campaigning.”



Won't get fooled again? surely these are students or young graduates, how easy they forget.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 28, 2016)

There was going to be one in Manchester but it got cancelled due to 'safety issues' .Prob some over zealous piece of EU Heath and safety legislation .


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Won't get fooled again? surely these are students or young graduates, how easy they forget.


Nobody gives a shit what he says though.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 28, 2016)

Corax said:


> So, that Remain protest in Westminster this evening...
> 
> What are their demands exactly?  That Parliament ignore the democratic result of the referendum?


Free TEFL from Brexit?


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Nobody gives a shit what he says though.



Well, lets see what response he got, must have been invited, etc.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

I promised myself I wouldn't look at Guardian comments for a while...the flesh was weak I'm afraid...this cracker from Monbiot's article.


> Carlossie 10m ago
> In a misguided affirmation of the result the author refuses to acknowledge that there is no democractic "right" for a majority (and a very slim one) to permanently damage the lives, property and futures of a minority (that is almost as big). Only supermajorities of 65% or more have the authority to take decisions of that seriousness. There is no case for treating the referednum result as "sacred" even if it were not the outcome of lies and fantasies (on both sides) and the responsibilty in many cases of *people with no stake in national life, no adequate understanding of the issues, or concern about the people who would pay the price.*


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

jim crow


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

At least the freeman of the land types won't get involved in these legal challenges, they are all outers!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I promised myself I wouldn't look at Guardian comments for a while...the flesh was weak I'm afraid...this cracker from Monbiot's article.
> ​


Back to the Putney debates we found then


----------



## newbie (Jun 28, 2016)

Corax said:


> So, that Remain protest in Westminster this evening...
> 
> What are their demands exactly?  That Parliament ignore the democratic result of the referendum?



It's as good a demand as any other.  Other people can demand other things.

Parliament claims sovereignty.  There's no constitution or precedent to determine what happens next, just balance of forces.

Nothing can happen until parliament- both houses- pass a law.  In the runup 70% of MPs wanted to stay in, I doubt many lords want out, so getting that law through could be very difficult. With both parties in chaos, effective 3 line whips are less credible than cross party alliances. With so much at stake, and the population split, backbench MPs are going to have to use the power we handed them. Each of the 70% will have to decide whether to vote with their conscience or against it because the population as a whole has spoken.  So where does that leave the arithmetic? 

What happens, prior to a GE, if a majority simply refuse to pass the legislation?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 28, 2016)

newbie said:


> It's as good a demand as any other.  Other people can demand other things.
> 
> Parliament claims sovereignty.  There's no constitution or precedent to determine what happens next, just balance of forces.
> 
> ...


Take it you voted Remain?


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

If it came to a "will we / won't we" vote then MPs should really vote according to their constituents, so some on the leave side should be voting with remain and of course vice versa. Actually of course what they should be doing right now is accepting the decision and setting up cross party committees to review various aspects of the thousands of small decisions that will be needed to manage the change and build UK confidence (for businesses here and overseas), prepare for and manage negotiations, as well as cooperating on the future plans for the UK.

Fat chance of any of it while they're staring up each other's arseholes in the hope of promotion though. They'd rather have the UK look incompetent so the markets get worse than miss a minor improvement for themselves in seating position.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I promised myself I wouldn't look at Guardian comments for a while...the flesh was weak I'm afraid...this cracker from Monbiot's article.
> ​


65% eh. Well I guess even the Scottish can't claim to want to be in the EU then.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 28, 2016)

A lot of establishment types are talking about this thing in London, same size as the Corbyn demo they slagged off last night, like it's Maidan 2 or something


----------



## newbie (Jun 28, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Take it you voted Remain?


yes, and then went off for 10 days without reliable battery which has been very frustrating, so it'll take a while to catch up. Apologies if I'm posting stuff that was dealt with days ago.

Big demonstrations to put pressure on MPs to block legislation are bound to occur.  And equally big ones to pass it.  Backbench MPs hold the power now, nothing is really a foregone conclusion, and I'm guessing they'll be facing a barrage of competing demands and reasoning prior to whatever votes this requires.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> A lot of establishment types are talking about this thing in London, same size as the Corbyn demo they slagged off last night, like it's Maidan 2 or something


Surprise, I reckon. I went down to see what was going on, and I passed a lot of men in suits saying "there's thousands of them" on their mobiles. I don't think any of them were expecting a load of people outside Parliament shouting "FUCK BORIS JOHNSON". (It stayed in Trafalgar Square for a bit then moved down Whitehall to the HoP.)


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 28, 2016)

Note that far from taking to the streets that this would be action 


newbie said:


> yes, and then went off for 10 days without reliable battery which has been very frustrating, so it'll take a while to catch up. Apologies if I'm posting stuff that was dealt with days ago.
> 
> Big demonstrations to put pressure on MPs to block legislation are bound to occur.  And equally big ones to pass it.  Backbench MPs hold the power now, nothing is really a foregone conclusion, and I'm guessing they'll be facing a barrage of competing demands and reasoning prior to whatever votes this requires.


thought you'd been on holidays. You'll be pleased to know that I haven't been deported from Portugal yet.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think any of them were expecting a load of people outside Parliament shouting "FUCK BORIS JOHNSON".


Why on earth not? Surely that's a universal enough view for any type of rally; anti-racism, pro-remain, pro-leave, pro-Labour, pro-Tory etc etc.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People are meeting up in Trafalgar Square anyway—already some folk there. You can't just cancel it the same day....


I went and it was very busy indeed, despite the near-constant deluge. Photos later!


----------



## newbie (Jun 28, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Note that far from taking to the streets that this would be action
> 
> thought you'd been on holidays. You'll be pleased to know that I haven't been deported from Portugal yet.


I am indeed.

I think I said explicitly people will take to the streets. To make demands. Of MPs. Who hold the power to block legislation.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

newbie said:


> I am indeed.
> 
> I think I said explicitly people will take to the streets. To make demands. Of MPs. Who hold the power.



We, the more priviliged and highly educated, demand that the referendum be declared null and void due to its undemocratic nature, namely, too many chavs, who have _no adequate understanding of the issues, _voted in it. The Low paid shouldn't have the vote.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Surprise, I reckon. I went down to see what was going on, and I passed a lot of men in suits saying "there's thousands of them" on their mobiles. I don't think any of them were expecting a load of people outside Parliament shouting "FUCK BORIS JOHNSON". (It stayed in Trafalgar Square for a bit then moved down Whitehall to the HoP.)



My photos:


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 28, 2016)

Yuck


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 28, 2016)

Really glad this demo happened. My Polish friends are pretty upset about the out vote. Wake up Friday morning and feel they are no longer welcome here. 

Chatting with the guys at Pret I use in Soho. One Polish one English. Both think out vote was crap.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Yuck



Why?


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Yuck


If you're just going to try and troll here you'll be facing a swift Threadexit.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 28, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> We, the more priviliged and highly educated, demand that the referendum be declared null and void due to its undemocratic nature, namely, too many chavs, who have _no adequate understanding of the issues, _voted in it. The Low paid shouldn't have the vote.



Oh I see now. Im from Brixton. Here in Lambeth it was big majority to stay in. Which means in my area a lot of working class people voted in. 

Chatting to my Afro Caribbean postman friend he said out vote had a lot to do with anti immigrant feeling. He has no time for it. Remembering his father got the same shit when he came here years ago. 

The work I do means I mix with a lot of working class from Europe- this being London thats not unusual.

I have had chats with my Polish friends- who do working class jobs- and they are upset about the out vote. Feeling a lot of people here no longer welcome there presence. I can understand why they feel like this.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 29, 2016)

All seems predicated on the EU = Europe thing. Good intentions, for most, to be sure but it's still ignoring issues with the organization in favour of vague feel good gestures. Same lack of awareness and interest in the concerns and problems of others that got us here.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Thousands join anti-Brexit demo in rain-drenched Trafalgar Square, London: full photo report


----------



## newbie (Jun 29, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> We, the more priviliged and highly educated, demand that the referendum be declared null and void due to its undemocratic nature, namely, too many chavs, who have _no adequate understanding of the issues, _voted in it. The Low paid shouldn't have the vote.


I edited in 3 extra words while you were typing.

Everyone(ish) has had the opportunity to vote.  We know the result. What happens next is about who has power- MPs- and how they use it. The people in the photos above are pressuring them to use it to stop brexit.  Others will pressure them to push it through pdq. Those competing pressures will come to a head for a vote in parliament to get this process underway. The result is not a foregone conclusion- or do you think it is, or should be?


----------



## YouSir (Jun 29, 2016)

newbie said:


> I edited in 3 extra words while you were typing.
> 
> Everyone(ish) has had the opportunity to vote.  We know the result. What happens next is about who has power- MPs- and how they use it. The people in the photos above are pressuring them to use it to stop brexit.  Others will pressure them to push it through pdq. Those competing pressures will come to a head for a vote in parliament to get this process underway. The result is not a foregone conclusion- or do you think it is, or should be?



The referendum was sold to people as a decisive choice, to backtrack now and basically say 'unless the political class doesn't like it' makes a joke of the whole democratic process. Especially if it comes as a result, or is seen to come as the result, of one block protesting. People have the right to do whatever they feel necessary but if the results are ultimately ignored they have to face the backlash they'll see from disillusioned, dismissed and disdained Leave voters. Something I've yet to see any evidence of a lot of these people giving a toss about. And I've seen even less awareness of the issues people have with the EU as an institution, especially as it seems just to be supported as a 'nice' entity rather than a political and economic union.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2016)

wrong post


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 29, 2016)

I saw stuff about this demo that it was supposed to be inclusive, largely anti-racism to let all immigrants know they are still safe and welcome. The invitation explicitly invited people however they voted. It was fairly obvious that it would become retrospectively billed as anti-Brexit, but it's a shame that it didn't manage to keep its original purpose, because actually that was a far more important point to make than people complaining that they didn't like the result.

(The anti Farage etc posters I'll make an exception for, that's on message given the tone of some of the debate.)


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2016)

newbie said:


> I edited in 3 extra words while you were typing.
> 
> Everyone(ish) has had the opportunity to vote.  We know the result. What happens next is about who has power- MPs- and how they use it. The people in the photos above are pressuring them to use it to stop brexit.  Others will pressure them to push it through pdq. Those competing pressures will come to a head for a vote in parliament to get this process underway. The result is not a foregone conclusion- or do you think it is, or should be?



The constitutional issue is a bit of a mess. Read this today by Hilton. Mainstream economic writer but raises the issues. 

He also points out that a lot of the vote was against the kind of globalised capitalism that has been the orthodoxy for past decades.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Why?


'Farage is a rancid, festering cunt' is a beautiful thing, but I'm yuck at much of that too. 

If it was supposed to be a 'support immigrants' rally, well, it was strictly only 'support EU immigrants' to many, clearly. Hijacking it like dicks.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 29, 2016)

I think it was actually the other way round. Started life as anti-Brexit protest, then changed to a solidarity "Remain and Leave against racism" sort of thing, and a lot of people who signed up for the original purpose got rather upset about the change.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'Farage is a rancid, festering cunt' is a beautiful thing, but I'm yuck at much of that too.
> 
> If it was supposed to be a 'support immigrants' rally, well, it was strictly only 'support EU immigrants' to many, clearly. Hijacking it like dicks.



I didnt see the publicity for it and only came across it by accident. 

Speeches by those present were supporting migrants in general and a country that welcomes them. One British Asian who spoke linked the out vote to opposition to migrants in general. As her parents has to put up with when they first came here. The EU is hardly perfect but for me out is a step back for this country.


----------



## treelover (Jun 29, 2016)

editor said:


> If you're just going to try and troll here you'll be facing a swift Threadexit.




He/she is not trolling, afaic, he sees lots of middle class people worried about their entitlement, etc, the country, but wonders where they have been the last ten years, austerity, suicides from benefit sanctions, food banks, etc, its a valid position.


----------



## treelover (Jun 29, 2016)

All of us, 

btw, I voted remain.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> He/she is not trolling, afaic, he sees lots of middle class people worried about their entitlement, etc, the country, but wonders where they have been the last ten years, austerity, suicides from benefit sanctions, food banks, etc, its a valid position.



Really? My working class neighbours had In posters in there window. (Lambeth, London)

Down from where I come from (Devon - but I grew up in Plymouth) if you go outside Plymouth, which is full of backwoods middle class Tories, they all vote UKIP. My friend who went back there to look after her aged mother told me they were all UKIP around there. Its not that the middle class are worried about there entitlements. A lot of them outside London are real reactionaries. The kind of people who regard Cameron as a metropolitan liberal.

The country always was split. The referendum has brought this to the surface.


----------



## newbie (Jun 29, 2016)

YouSir said:


> The referendum was sold to people as a decisive choice, to backtrack now and basically say '*unless the political class doesn't like it'* makes a joke of the whole democratic process. Especially if it comes as a result, or is seen to come as the result, of one block protesting. People have the right to do whatever they feel necessary but if the results are ultimately ignored they have to face the backlash they'll see from disillusioned, dismissed and disdained Leave voters. Something I've yet to see any evidence of a lot of these people giving a toss about.


yes.

The thing about the political class, though, is that they're elected to take decisions on legislation (and to face the backlash). That's what they do and there's no precedent for another constitutional way it can be done. We remain in the EU until sufficient MPs pass legislation to start the leaving process. If they consistently block it I presume there will have to be a general election.  A pro-Leave majority after that will see the legislation through, but a win for pro-Remain will kill it. 

This isn't over yet and it's naive to think it is. Passions are likely to run pretty high in the runup to the big vote, whenever it will be.  This is just the beginning of demonstrations and counter-demonstrations around the country.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2016)

newbie said:


> This isn't over yet and it's naive to think it is. Passions are likely to run pretty high in the runup to the big vote, whenever it will be.  This is just the beginning of demonstrations and counter-demonstrations around the country.



I agree. And it could get pretty nasty. Passions on both sides are high.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 29, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Why?


'Love the EU', really? As a socalist? You might have voted to Remain because you thought that was the best option, but don't fall into liberal bullshit that the EU is anything other than a neo-liberal bosses club.

I mean slag off Cameron, Farage, Johnson fine, excellent but this LibDemery crap about how great the EU is, fuck off.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 29, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Really? My working class neighbours had In posters in there window. (Lambeth, London)
> 
> Down from where I come from (Devon - but I grew up in Plymouth) if you go outside Plymouth, which is full of backwoods middle class Tories, they all vote UKIP. My friend who went back there to look after her aged mother told me they were all UKIP around there. Its not that the middle class are worried about there entitlements. A lot of them outside London are real reactionaries. The kind of people who regard Cameron as a metropolitan liberal.
> 
> The country always was split. The referendum has brought this to the surface.


if that's what you think the split is, you're living in a dream land.
do you think the majority of the country outside of london are backwoods middle class tories?


----------



## treelover (Jun 29, 2016)

Well we seem to be in post party politics, apparently the crowd listened to Anna Soubry and cheered her, though part of iot may be because she was making anti-racist statements.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> He/she is not trolling, afaic, he sees lots of middle class people worried about their entitlement, etc, the country, but wonders where they have been the last ten years, austerity, suicides from benefit sanctions, food banks, etc, its a valid position.


He/she said all that in the one word post, 'Yuck'? No, there's ways to have an intelligent argument. That is not one of them.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

YouSir said:


> The referendum was sold to people as a decisive choice, to backtrack now and basically say 'unless the political class doesn't like it' makes a joke of the whole democratic process. Especially if it comes as a result, or is seen to come as the result, of one block protesting. People have the right to do whatever they feel necessary but if the results are ultimately ignored they have to face the backlash they'll see from disillusioned, dismissed and disdained Leave voters.



If this result is overturned or ignored, we'll have every right to defy and resist anything the EU tries to do for ever more.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

editor said:


> He/she said all that in the one word post, 'Yuck'? No, there's ways to have an intelligent argument. That is not one of them.



I thought he was expressing disgust at the arrogance of those who feel entitled to overturn the people's democratically-expressed will.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I thought he was expressing disgust at the arrogance of those who feel entitled to overturn the people's democratically-expressed will.


Ah. You _felt_ the arrogance, eh?


----------



## discokermit (Jun 29, 2016)

editor said:


> Ah. You _felt_ the arrogance, eh?


no, he thought. read the post.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 29, 2016)

you lack even the most rudimentary comprehension skills. lol.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 29, 2016)

discokermit said:


> lol.



Careful now. That'll get you banned.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 29, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Careful now. That'll get you banned.


Don't stand for it discokermit, protest about your right to remain.


----------



## Sifta (Jun 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> A lot of establishment types are talking about this thing in London, same size as the Corbyn demo they slagged off last night, like it's Maidan 2 or something



Looks like we're to be having a "colour revolution". Ain't we the lucky ones. Wonder what shade we'll be allocated? The official colour of the EU flag is "reflex blue", amusingly.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 29, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I didnt see the publicity for it and only came across it by accident.
> 
> Speeches by those present were supporting migrants in general and a country that welcomes them. One British Asian who spoke linked the out vote to opposition to migrants in general. As her parents has to put up with when they first came here. The EU is hardly perfect but for me out is a step back for this country.


I getting really fucked of with this idea that the EU is the pro-imigration choice. It clearly isn't. It's freedom of movement is limited to EU counties, so unless her parents came here from the EU what's her point? The EU is just as big a barrier to immigration as the UK state. To support the EU is to support explicitly racist immigration policies. This shit is either extremely ignorant or extremely disingenuous.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 29, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I getting really fucked of with this idea that the EU is the pro-imigration choice. It clearly isn't. It's freedom if movement is limited to EU counties, so unless her parents came here from the EU what's her point? The EU is just as big a barrier to immigration as the UK state. To support the EU is to support explicitly racist immigration policies. This shit is either extremely ignorant or extremely disingenuous.


Forgot to say, many areas of the EU are for more hostile to immigrants from outside the EU than the UK is. We probably have one if the weakest far rights on the continent.


----------



## chilango (Jun 29, 2016)

Of course. The first protests by Remainers are gonna be a bit like this. Let's see if they continue  what they might develop into.

Let's also see if Leave take to the streets in defence of the democratic voice.

Then let's see what common sentiment and common demands start emerging.

Or not.

Either way it's better than shit memes on Facebook whilst letting the politicians get on with it.

Isn't it?


----------



## emanymton (Jun 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> Of course. The first protests by Remainers are gonna be a bit like this. Let's see if they continue  what they might develop into.
> 
> Let's also see if Leave take to the streets in defence of the democratic voice.
> 
> ...


I wish there was a vaguely credible left wing org with a united leave position to call a left based demo calling on the government to honour the vote. It would maybe allow the left to start to have some impact on shaping things post referendum. But there is no one to call it, the peoples assembly would be the obvious choice, but their split and mostly remain anyway, I think. I just can't see how I could support a leave demo called by the right.


----------



## Sweet Meiga (Jun 29, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Forgot to say, many areas of the EU are for more hostile to immigrants from outside the EU than the UK is. We probably have one if the weakest far rights on the continent.


Quite right. Was about time to give the UK far right a chance to up their game.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 29, 2016)

editor said:


> He/she said all that in the one word post, 'Yuck'? No, there's ways to have an intelligent argument. That is not one of them.



Yuck means I see yesterday’s display of sanctimonious liberal snobbery as a shameless disregard for a democratic vote.

Big business and big politics don't want to accept this and are gearing up to basically piss all over democracy which will then create an even wider and bitter rift in society.

Obviously, these privileged protestors, a product of gentrification in London, don’t see that, all they see is that the referendum result was 'incorrect' because they feel that the poor people’s vote weighs less than their higher educated middle class liberal perspective, yet they are incapable of stating any clear reason to stay in the EU, while simultaneously showing a total and utter ignorance of how the other half of the country live.

The financial times has hit the nail on the head. The leave vote was symptomatic of racism but has at its root been a protest against inequality.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> We, the more priviliged and highly educated, demand that the referendum be declared null and void due to its undemocratic nature, namely, too many chavs, who have _no adequate understanding of the issues, _voted in it. The Low paid shouldn't have the vote.



Lot of this victimhood from those on the left who voted to leave. And instant lashing out at those of us on the left who voted to remain. Because those of us in the latter camp disagree with the result, we have to be middle class, anti-working class, sneering at the "thickos" types.

The hilarious thing is that you sneer at the remainers for being concerned and basically, your language indicates that actually, the pro-exit camp have more that an adequate understanding of the issue and the remain camp doesn't, in the slightest.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> If this result is overturned or ignored, we'll have every right to defy and resist anything the EU tries to do for ever more.



Yes, you will. And we shall have every right to defy and resist you and your army.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes, you will. And we shall have every right to defy and resist you and your army.



Army?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 29, 2016)

Fuck's sake, can we not just agree that, in this of all votes, both camps had a very wide, varied and disparate set of backgrounds, ideologies and motivations, and that to try and paint them as any one thing is futile?

There isn't an average Remain voter, there isn't an average Leave voter. There are a lot of people voting for a lot of different reasons on a very complex and murky issue.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

Wasn't the OP actually asking when remain voters would take to the streets demanding reform of the undemocratic EU: demanding the end of the authoritarian ruling of greece as an EU colony, the end of the imposition of austerity/privatisations and redundancies across portugal, spain,Italy etc, the end of the murderous fortress europe policy, the end of the pressure on states to write austerity into their constitutions and the requirement for all new members to do the same, the overturning of the ban on the right to strike across eu-wide industries, the demand for political accountability. and so on Not when are you demonstrating in support of the body doing all these things.


----------



## chilango (Jun 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Wasn't the OP actualy asking when remain voters qould take to the streets demanding reform of the undemocratic EU: demanding the end of the authoritarian ruling of greece as an EU colony, the end of the imposition of austerity/privatisations and redundancies across portugal, spain,Italy etc, the end of the murderous fortress europe policy, the end of the pressure on states to write austerity into their constitutions and the requirement for all new members to do the same, the overturning of the ban on the right to strike across eu-wide industries, the demand for political accountability. and so on Not when are you demonstrating in support of the body doing all these things.





That's one way of reading it.

I was actually being far less sophisticated.

I was just wondering when the "anger" and "passion" on display online were going to translate into something more concrete.

...and then whether this could then become something more useful or remain at the level of the brooms.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Army?



It's not much of an army, but at least its mine.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Yuck means I see yesterday’s display of sanctimonious liberal snobbery as a shameless disregard for a democratic vote.


Ah, so that's what it was. Sanctimonious liberal snobs. All of them. And not just people pissed off.


----------



## Kesher (Jun 29, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fuck's sake, can we not just agree that, in this of all votes, both camps had a very wide, varied and disparate set of backgrounds, ideologies and motivations, and that to try and paint them as any one thing is futile?
> 
> There isn't an average Remain voter, there isn't an average Leave voter. There are a lot of people voting for a lot of different reasons on a very complex and murky issue.



I can't agree: I believe  a large part of the leave vote was based on "Taking  our country back"  meaning   reduced immigration


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

emanymton said:


> To support the EU is to support explicitly racist immigration policies.



That's an excellent point, and it ought to be made more often.

I'm in favor of Leaving, in part, because I want _more _immigration.  It's just that I'd rather see immigrants come from the commonwealth than from the EU.  One of my main problems with the EU was that it replaced commonwealth immigration with European immigration.  I suspect that an awful lot of people feel as I do.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes, you will. And we shall have every right to defy and resist you and your army.



Did I miss the uniforms being given out or are you being just a little melodramatic?

Anyway krtek a houby v Phil Dwyer...it's





Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 29, 2016)

Kesher said:


> I can't agree: I believe  a large part of the leave vote was based on "Taking  our country back"  meaning   reduced immigration



Any other meanings that 'taking our country back' might have...any...any at all?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 29, 2016)

Kesher said:


> I can't agree: I believe  a large part of the leave vote was based on "Taking  our country back"  meaning   reduced immigration


Perhaps, but they won't all share a common background or social status.

<edit> 


Louis MacNeice said:


> Any other meanings that 'taking our country back' might have...any...any at all?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


And that.


----------



## Kesher (Jun 29, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Any other meanings that 'taking our country back' might have...any...any at all?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



It was mainly about cutting down on foreigners


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 29, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Did I miss the uniforms being given out or are you being just a little melodramatic?
> 
> Anyway krtek a houby v Phil Dwyer...it's
> 
> ...



More like


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> More like



Show us another "amusing" picture of a Muslim woman wearing a "burka" why don't you?


----------



## emanymton (Jun 29, 2016)

Sweet Meiga said:


> Quite right. Was about time to give the UK far right a chance to up their game.


YES! we must stay in the EU or will end up with a far right like the have in the EU.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 29, 2016)

This is getting ugly in here.

Those who are shouting liberal elite at the complaining remain - check the actual voting statistics from Ashcroft. More importantly, note that the purpose of some of these rallies was billed as anti-racist, so let's give some credit to the ones who had that as their purpose.

Those who are shouting xenophobic / racist thickos at leave - check the actual voting statistics from Ashcroft and please try to read the many reasons people have given in countless articles, polls and on here. If you won't even try to understand why people have issues with the EU then you are at fault. Counter it with positives that you see from the EU integration and other activities if you wish, but take the blinkers off.

Did I piss everybody off on both sides now?


----------



## campanula (Jun 29, 2016)

I am getting seriously ticked off with the new term which is being flung around - more in the US than UK but criminey - 'low information' voters or 'non-college' voters. Could the contempt for working stiffs be any more scathingly obvious.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

Jim crow.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

campanula said:


> I am getting seriously ticked off with the new term which is being flung around - more in the US than UK but criminey - 'low information' voters or 'non-college' voters. Could the contempt for working stiffs be any more scathingly obvious.



It'll be literacy tests next.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> My photos:


Makes the Teddy Bears picnic seem like a proletarian revolt


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 29, 2016)

For any who wouldn't find the idea of restricting voting based on education repugnant anyway (i can't believe there are any here, but rather I'm addressing the implication from some articles for general information), I'd like to point to actual statistics from Ashcroft's poll that are being much abused.

University degree + Higher University degree in the polling split 3750 remain (58%) / 2634 leave (42%). Couple this with the accepted difference given the known age preference of voters (less older people have degrees shock). Here's a comparative stat for you, in 1970 less than 10% of school leavers went to university and in 2010 it was around 40%. Educational attainment seriously doesn't look like a factor unless it suits someone's purpose to say so. We can argue the implications of age in the vote, sure, but any statistician can tell you education isn't the big correlation.


----------



## Corax (Jun 29, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fuck's sake, can we not just agree that, in this of all votes, both camps had a very wide, varied and disparate set of backgrounds, ideologies and motivations, and that to try and paint them as any one thing is futile?
> 
> There isn't an average Remain voter, there isn't an average Leave voter. There are a lot of people voting for a lot of different reasons on a very complex and murky issue.


Fuck you and your balanced perspective.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 29, 2016)

Corax said:


> Fuck you and your balanced perspective.


He likes Toploader, so what the fuck does he know.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2016)

@GoodwinMJ: 1/2 So here's a map of all the people who are signing the petition for 2nd EU referendum. Anybody notice anything? Matthew Goodwin on Twitter


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

campanula said:


> I am getting seriously ticked off with the new term which is being flung around - more in the US than UK but criminey - 'low information' voters or 'non-college' voters. Could the contempt for working stiffs be any more scathingly obvious.


This this this. It's bad in the US i noticed, particularly when they tried to explain a lower mortality for white people- it was people with a lower education that made poor choices. Argh.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 29, 2016)

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/p...rn-out-for-pro-eu-demonstration-in-edinburgh/

edit:



> Amongst the speakers, the crowd broke into sporadic chanting including “Scotland for Europe”, “Bairns not Boris” and “fromage not Farage”.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2016)

> Matteo believes that the U.K. should stay in the European Union, claiming that he feels more European than English. He cited many great things the EU has achieved, like giving women and minorities the vote, introducing Saturdays (which are his busiest business days), and abolishing slavery. He particularly liked traveling around Europe, talking to like-minded people about their shared passion for overpriced artisanal products, and he feared he would lose this freedom if Britain left the EU.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2016)

> *Tim Farron* ‏@*timfarron*  20h20 hours ago
> 
> 
> SO inspired by the 50,000 of you who joined us in Traf Sq to stand up for Britain #*WeAreThe48* #*LoveNotLeave*→



More Libdem Remain lies


----------



## brogdale (Jun 30, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> More Libdem Remain lies





> _"...joined us..."_



So, that was 50,008, then?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2016)

quote wrong


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> That's an excellent point, and it ought to be made more often.
> 
> I'm in favor of Leaving, in part, because I want _more _immigration.  It's just that I'd rather see immigrants come from the commonwealth than from the EU.  One of my main problems with the EU was that it replaced commonwealth immigration with European immigration.  I suspect that an awful lot of people feel as I do.



As the Polish woman working in the local shop (in Brixton ) I use has been told post the vote. A few the customers ( and most people in my area don’t think this) have been asking her when is she going "back" and that they have more of a right to be here than her. That people from Commonwealth should have more right than her to be here.

This is just playing one migrant group off another. It makes it into who is most "deserving".


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> Obviously, these privileged protestors, a product of gentrification in London, don’t see that, all they see is that the referendum result was 'incorrect' because they feel that the poor people’s vote weighs less than their higher educated middle class liberal perspective, yet they are incapable of stating any clear reason to stay in the EU, while simultaneously showing a total and utter ignorance of how the other half of the country live.
> 
> The financial times has hit the nail on the head. The leave vote was symptomatic of racism but has at its root been a protest against inequality.



I am from London in Lambeth like editor . Lambeth had one of the highest In votes. 

Two anecdotes. One born and bred white Londoner friend from Camden doing a working class job was in mixed minds about voting In or Out. As the run up to the vote became more about immigration he decided to vote In. Like me he works with and know a lot of people who are recent migrants. He is married to one.

My other English friend an electrician with a Polish girlfriend thinks the same and they are going on the demo this Saturday. He works with a lot of East Europeans on building sites.

This idea its just middle class metropolitan liberals voting In is wrong. 

Both my friends are critical of what is happening to London re gentrification. Both saw Out vote as anti immigration. They made there own minds up on the issue.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2016)

discokermit said:


> if that's what you think the split is, you're living in a dream land.
> do you think the majority of the country outside of london are backwoods middle class tories?



Fair enough point. My experience of rural life is coloured by spending part of my life in the sticks in Devon. So not representative of all country. Plymouth was a bit more liberal minded. Where I spent half my childhood. But outside its old school Tory heartland.

However as my friend who recently went back to Devon from London told me it was a culture shock after years in London. Its UKIP in the small village where she is now. I’m not surprised.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> As the Polish woman working in the local shop (in Brixton ) I use has been told post the vote. A few the customers ( and most people in my area don’t think this) have been asking her when is she going "back" and that they have more of a right to be here than her. That people from Commonwealth should have more right than her to be here.
> 
> This is just playing one migrant group off another. It makes it into who is most "deserving".



I see your point.  Of course the truth is that everyone should have the right to live anywhere they want.  The very idea of governments being able to tell individuals where they can and cannot live is deeply repugnant.

Having said that, Britain does owe a considerable historical debt to the Commonwealth, which provided the resources and labor power for centuries of British prosperity.  For that reason, the post-war Left--including the Labor Party--was deeply committed to allowing unrestricted immigration from the Commonwealth.  In my opinion, that was the right thing to do, and it was a disgraceful betrayal when immigration controls were introduced in 1962.  It was a worse betrayal when the Labor Party refused to campaign against such restrictions.

We owe no comparable debt to the nations of mainland Europe.  So while in principle I support unrestricted immigration, I could live with a policy that allowed only Commonwealth citizens to migrate to the UK.


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2016)

On the 'March for Europe' protest FB page there is real anger, and some very angry indeed, looks like it is going to be massive, they really think they can change the verdict,


----------



## gosub (Jul 1, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Any other meanings that 'taking our country back' might have...any...any at all?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Returning the ability to self govern.


----------



## Sifta (Jul 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> On the 'March for Europe' protest FB page there is real anger, and some very angry indeed, looks like it is going to be massive, they really think they can change the verdict,


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2016)

I saw that, i think its by a troll, though who knows.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 1, 2016)

I wonder why they didn't bill it as March for the EU? 
Surely that would be more honest.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Sifta (Jul 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> I saw that, i think its by a troll, though who knows.



Indeed. What I find most disturbing is that it could easily be real, and I really can't tell


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2016)

I voted remain but the class hatred/snobbery has been appalling.


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2016)

> We're unifying Remain supporters and campaigns across the country into one unified movement. We're a core team of designers, developers, youth campaigners, legal experts, event organisers and strategists. We're getting all protest and march organisers in London working together. Join our team Project Remain!



Nathan Barleys's on the march!


----------



## newbie (Jul 2, 2016)

Who's organising against them?


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

newbie said:


> Who's organising against them?



The LibDems. Treacherous bastards.


----------



## pocketscience (Jul 2, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> For any who wouldn't find the idea of restricting voting based on education repugnant anyway (i can't believe there are any here, but rather I'm addressing the implication from some articles for general information), I'd like to point to actual statistics from Ashcroft's poll that are being much abused.
> 
> University degree + Higher University degree in the polling split 3750 remain (58%) / 2634 leave (42%). Couple this with the accepted difference given the known age preference of voters (less older people have degrees shock). Here's a comparative stat for you, in 1970 less than 10% of school leavers went to university and in 2010 it was around 40%. Educational attainment seriously doesn't look like a factor unless it suits someone's purpose to say so. We can argue the implications of age in the vote, sure, but any statistician can tell you education isn't the big correlation.


A bloke I work with (public school/cambridge degree) keeps on about IQ tests for voting... completely missing the irony that Cameron (or Johnson), with the "best education money can buy", has shown levels of ignorance and incompetence that by his standards could only be attributed to someone who doesnt even posess a single state school GCSE.
Fucking snobs make my piss boil


----------



## newbie (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> The LibDems. Treacherous bastards.


obviously a badly worded question.  I meant who is organising against the LDs and Nathan and his mates that are trying to overturn the result?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> A bloke I work with (public school/cambridge degree) keeps on about IQ tests for voting... completely missing the irony that Cameron (or Johnson), with the "best education money can buy", has shown levels of ignorance and incompetence that by his standards could only be attributed to someone who doesnt even posess a single state school GCSE.
> Fucking snobs make my piss boil


Very Liberal. Very _plural voting _à la JSM.


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

Youthful clean cut  Remainers setting up a "Referendum: Cakes & Conversation" stall in Reading town centre as I type.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Youthful clean cut  Remainers setting up a "Referendum: Cakes & Conversation" stall in Reading town centre as I type.


They like cartoons as well...


----------



## emanymton (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Youthful clean cut  Remainers setting up a "Referendum: Cakes & Conversation" stall in Reading town centre as I type.


Did you point out that we've already had the vote and they lost?


----------



## newbie (Jul 2, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Did you point out that we've already had the vote and they lost?


passers-by telling them that is inevitable but there's likely to be organised counter-campaigning as well, with 'A50 Now' stalls setting up around the country, quite possibly across the street from this sort.  We'll see how much resonance their competing views have with the public (and which public and where) over the next few weeks.

I suspect we're entering what's likely to be a period of self-activity leading to new organisational formations for battles ahead.	The people in Reading and those protesting this afternoon in traf sq and elsewhere are a little ahead of the curve.  Who are they?  Youthful and cleancut they may be but that's a demographic not political description and doesn't explain how they've organised to have a stall.  Is this something ad-hoc from facebook or does it spring from pre-existing mainstream organisation, ie are they simultaneously applying to join the Labour Party, have they got a May/Leadsom/Gove vote, do they think the LDs have any relevance to anything? or are they outside established parliamentary parties, in which case where are the strings and who is pulling them??

*educate* is ongoing
*agitate* is starting
*organise* is coming

The questions will be how to do that, who to side with, how to effectively counter the pro-neo-liberal right wing dominance of all sides.


----------



## weltweit (Jul 2, 2016)




----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> A bloke I work with (public school/cambridge degree) keeps on about IQ tests for voting... completely missing the irony that Cameron (or Johnson), with the "best education money can buy", has shown levels of ignorance and incompetence that by his standards could only be attributed to someone who doesnt even posess a single state school GCSE.
> Fucking snobs make my piss boil


Missing that people who are so incurious about the reason for the result are hardly likely to be intelligent either. Ask him to show you the mathematical workings for education level correlation when age is removed as a factor, the figures are all available publicly.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 2, 2016)

Sorry wrong thread


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 2, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> Sorry for this but.......



That belongs in Handwringo surely. Wow though, he's like a real life caricature.


----------



## inva (Jul 2, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> That belongs in Handwringo surely. Wow though, he's like a real life caricature.


it's a right wing prick as far as I can tell


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 2, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> Sorry for this but.......




It's sarcasm I think. Very good sarcasm.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 2, 2016)

Sarcasm may be wrong word. Droll humour.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's sarcasm I think. Very good sarcasm.


From a dirty prick who needs a good slap.


----------



## newbie (Jul 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


>



that's a lot of people for a spontaneous protest.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> From a dirty prick who needs a good slap.



Yeah, scrolling through his other tweets it certainly seems that way.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 2, 2016)

Ah, well then I applaud him.

Presumably the invitations go out when people sign up to "Breentry" and other protest sites via Facebook?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


>






I hope the Met's FIT teams are documenting all these enemies of democracy.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 2, 2016)

I can't help but notice the huge numbers of very young people in these protests. A couple of my colleagues fit into the youngest vote bracket and say they voted Remain, but they seem quite sanguine about the result, having researched and therefore seeing bad as well as good about the EU. The stats suggest only 36% of under 25s turned up to vote (which will be based on the number actually registered), so how much is social media led hysteria and how much is real sentiment or knowledge? 2 out of 3 of them can't have missed that the referendum was taking place nor that the outcome was expected to be close.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 2, 2016)

Possibly young people are less cynical so are more inclined to believe the doom laden hysteria from Gideon and his crew?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 2, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I hope the Met's FIT teams are documenting all these enemies of democracy.


those wankers camped out at just the perfect bottleneck on an Embankment to T square march route to film people as they passed by four in a row. The stasi cunts. I covered my face


----------



## newbie (Jul 2, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I hope the Met's FIT teams are documenting all these enemies of democracy.




they don't see themselves like that, of course.  I've had messages from friends asking why I'm not there but find myself reluctant to say '_cos I don't agree with it'_ as I don't want to start falling out with anyone this early into the coming battles.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2016)




----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2016)

Incredible.


----------



## JimW (Jul 2, 2016)

killer b said:


> Incredible.


The baguettes  Christ


----------



## treelover (Jul 2, 2016)

Anyone have rough figures for the march?


----------



## treelover (Jul 2, 2016)

Now its multi-millionaire Geldof.


----------



## bi0boy (Jul 2, 2016)

If they campaigned for a pro-immigration EU brexit deal, they might have a point. As it is they just come across as sore losers.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2016)

.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 2, 2016)

Few mentions of a polite and 'very British' march. I've never been on one of those, where are their anarchist trouble makers and professional rabble rousers?


----------



## YouSir (Jul 2, 2016)

Bob Geldof is a bellend.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 2, 2016)

killer b said:


>




Hideously white.


----------



## Reno (Jul 2, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Hideously white.


Obviously people of colour were banned.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 2, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Few mentions of a polite and 'very British' march. I've never been on one of those, where are their anarchist trouble makers and professional rabble rousers?


I have. Imagine my suprise when stopping for a pint and the beeb on tele talking about the tense air and febrile mood. Rather than the face-paint silly clothes union banners march I'd just been on and rejoined after a drink


----------



## ffsear (Jul 2, 2016)

treelover said:


> Anyone have rough figures for the march?



their saying around 30k,	roughly a mid table prem football clash


----------



## emanymton (Jul 2, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Bob Geldof is a bellend.


Blatant like farming.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Blatant like farming.


He's forrin anyway.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 2, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Blatant like farming.



Maggie Thatcher was bad...

Go on, like it, you know you want to...


----------



## emanymton (Jul 2, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Maggie Thatcher was bad...
> 
> Go on, like it, you know you want to...


It's not big and it's not clever, we can all do it. 

David Cameron is a pig shagging cunt. 

See?


----------



## shaman75 (Jul 2, 2016)

March for Europe by entoptika, on Flickr


----------



## bi0boy (Jul 2, 2016)

newbie said:


> that's a lot of people for a spontaneous protest.



Think of it as a flash mob that was advertised too widely.


----------



## mather (Jul 2, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Think of it as a flash mob that was advertised too widely.



I prefer to think of them as a shower of cunts.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 2, 2016)

I know what was odd about it - I didn't see a single swappie the whole time.


----------



## mather (Jul 2, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I know what was odd about it - I didn't see a single swappie the whole time.



It seems even the SWP has the sense not to be associated with this shower of cunts. That's saying something.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 2, 2016)

Compare media coverage of pro-EU marches to the total lack of coverage of the Keep Corbyn rallies.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 2, 2016)

killer b said:


>



Pukerama


----------



## J Ed (Jul 2, 2016)

Every single person on these pro-EU marches is that annoying person in forced fun group activities that takes it way too seriously and bosses you around and makes you put on an Australian accent and dance.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 2, 2016)

shaman75 said:


> March for Europe by entoptika, on Flickr



thats churchill, noted friend to workers and all round good egg. And commited europhile. Deffo not an empire relic with horrific reach who thought of europe as the poor cousin. No siree bob


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2016)

ffsear said:


> their saying around 30k,	roughly a mid table prem football clash


Yeh but 60,000 degrees among them


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Every single person on these pro-EU marches is that annoying person in forced fun group activities that takes it way too seriously and bosses you around and makes you put on an Australian accent and dance.


Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake a tree etc


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

Anyone know who organised that march today in London?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> thats churchill, noted friend to workers and all round good egg. And commited europhile. Deffo not an empire relic with horrific reach who thought of europe as the poor cousin. No siree bob


I figured the balloon was a knowing jape. Oh, those wiley young scamps.


----------



## souljacker (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Youthful clean cut  Remainers setting up a "Referendum: Cakes & Conversation" stall in Reading town centre as I type.



Where were they? I didn't spot them but did spot the teachers doing their thing on Broad Street. Please don't tell me they set up outside the town hall? No-one walks round there except the drunks heading to the Monks but for some reason it's where every little political group thinks its a good idea to set up.


----------



## pocketscience (Jul 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Anyone know who organised that march today in London?


Some bloke who made a facebook event. Wasnt expecting such a turnout.
He's on the beeb vid:
Thousands at 'March for Europe' Brexit protest - BBC News


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Some bloke who made a facebook event. Wasnt expecting such a turnout.
> He's on the beeb vid:
> Thousands at 'March for Europe' Brexit protest - BBC News


Oh, right.
So how did the OB make such instant arrangements for such a gathering in Parliament Sq, then?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Oh, right.
> So how did the OB make such instant arrangements for such a gathering in Parliament Sq, then?


hair trigger when it comes to that space I'd say. Collusion seems unlikely. But you crowd up in that space expect ze law to be right on you


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

souljacker said:


> Where were they? I didn't spot them but did spot the teachers doing their thing on Broad Street. Please don't tell me they set up outside the town hall? No-one walks round there except the drunks heading to the Monks but for some reason it's where every little political group thinks its a good idea to set up.



Outside FatFace. Little Gazebo, camping chairs and handwritten signs. Tupperware full of cupcakes. About 10.30 this morning. No idea how long they lasted.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> hair trigger when it comes to that space I'd say. Collusion seems unlikely. But you crowd up in that space expect ze law to be right on you


Exactly. My boy & his mates were illegally compelled to give their details just to escape the kettle the night that the OB stoved in Alfie Meadows' head.


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

souljacker said:


> Where were they? I didn't spot them but did spot the teachers doing their thing on Broad Street. Please don't tell me they set up outside the town hall? No-one walks round there except the drunks heading to the Monks but for some reason it's where every little political group thinks its a good idea to set up.



...and that's probably why I always miss the political groups!


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jul 2, 2016)

Mops and brooms become baguettes


----------



## souljacker (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...and that's probably why I always miss the political groups!



The free palestine/syria/stop the war mob are usually hanging round there, with a trestle table and a couple of leaflets. They don't seem to talk to anyone.


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Mops and brooms become baguettes



Er.....that's a bit iffy. Isn't it?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Er.....that's a bit iffy. Isn't it?


what, waving a baguette?

It reminded me of this:


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 2, 2016)

I went back and forward along the line a few times and didn't see any baguettes. Quite a lot of "fromage not Farage".


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> what, waving a baguette?



Yeah. A bit "'allo allo" no?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yeah. A bit "'allo allo" no?


agreed.

Fairplay to them for making a stand though, now that baguettes are going to be banned.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Exactly. My boy & his mates were illegally compelled to give their details just to escape the kettle the night that the OB stoved in Alfie Meadows' head.


glad your boy escaped without serious damage for exercising his democratic right to protest. I've lost count of how many times I've had to argue with libs on this 'no, mate, seriously they will kill you by accident and cover it up. You'll be a statistic'
not that should stop protest. But people need to be aware that a PO volunteer at these gigs is actually gagging to smash you over the head. Repeatedly. You think you hate them? well it's mutuals, no matter how many wankers sighs of 'oh well I'm just payed to be here'. No you aren't. You volunteered. You wanted it. They are dangerous.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 2, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> agreed.
> 
> Fairplay to them for making a stand though, now that baguettes are going to be banned.



There's a lot of this with these people. Protest signs that feature things about _fromage_, LIDL and stuff like that. Very weird.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yeah. A bit "'allo allo" no?


On the news there was footage of them shouting "_baguettes, not bregrets"..._which doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2016)

Baguettes? I've had a few...


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Baguettes? I've had a few...


----------



## doddles (Jul 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> A bloke I work with (public school/cambridge degree) keeps on about IQ tests for voting... completely missing the irony that Cameron (or Johnson), with the "best education money can buy", has shown levels of ignorance and incompetence that by his standards could only be attributed to someone who doesnt even posess a single state school GCSE.
> Fucking snobs make my piss boil


The entire idea of restricting votes based on education or IQ is fucked up beyond belief. I am a Professor, btw.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2016)

Some photos from Parliament Square. Lots of young people are well pissed off. 























In photos: Anti Brexit campaigners gather in Parliament Square, London


----------



## Santino (Jul 2, 2016)

doddles said:


> I am a Professor, btw.


Punch and Judy or TEFL?


----------



## pocketscience (Jul 2, 2016)

editor said:


> Some photos from Parliament Square. Lots of young people are well pissed off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Compared to the poll tax protests, I'd say that registers about 0.5 on the pissed off scale


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Baguettes? I've had a few...




Yes! You win five internets!!!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 2, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I figured the balloon was a knowing jape. Oh, those wiley young scamps.




They thought Winnie would have come to their rescue and kept Britain in the EU. 

Presumably they are not aware that the Harrow cunt was in favour of an EU for _them_, but not for us to be any part of the arrangements.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Compared to the poll tax protests, I'd say that registers about 0.5 on the pissed off scale


You can be angry without breaking things, but I dare say it's going to get uglier.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2016)

editor said:


> You can be angry without breaking things, but I dare say it's going to get uglier.


Certainly, if it doesn't happen.


----------



## Cid (Jul 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> On the news there was footage of them shouting "_baguettes, not bregrets"..._which doesn't make much sense to me.



Not exactly an unusual situation in protest chants.


----------



## treelover (Jul 2, 2016)

editor said:


> You can be angry without breaking things, but I dare say it's going to get uglier.



Do expand, on the stay side?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 2, 2016)

Bear in mind there are people in the country right now like my cousin who is scared to speak in public now as he doesn't want people to know he's not English... from what little i heard about today i heard people were saying 'we know today makes no difference but we wanted people to feel welcome in england'...for people like my cousin that might actually be just a little reassuring. 

I havent read the thread but im sure theres lots of pisstaking etc - fine - but bearing in mind the outpouring of hatred theres been this week im glad this happened.


----------



## pocketscience (Jul 2, 2016)

editor said:


> You can be angry without breaking things, but I dare say it's going to get uglier.


did you get the impression that they people there _could _get nasty*?
Certainly don't look like it from the pics.

*that the establishment are going to get nasty is a foregone conclusion...


----------



## inva (Jul 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yeah. A bit "'allo allo" no?


not to mention a bit 'leave voters and their sliced white' I guess


----------



## pocketscience (Jul 2, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Bear in mind there are people in the country right now like my cousin who is scared to speak in public now as he doesn't want people to know he's not English... from what little i heard about today i heard people were saying 'we know today makes no difference but we wanted people to feel welcome in england'...for people like my cousin that might actually be just a little reassuring.
> 
> I havent read the thread but im sure theres lots of pisstaking etc - fine - but bearing in mind the outpouring of hatred theres been this week im glad this happened.


It probably is a good time to keep his head down. But I reckon it'll pass.
I've been out in Germany throughout the referendum and tbf I've been pulled up numerous times in everyday situations with the most ignorant, flippant comments. No better than the majority of the stuff mentioned on the "racially abused" thread.
For what it's worth, Germany is way, way worse right now.
German Authorities Fail To Protect Refugees From Violence
Is the Ugly German Back? Flames of Hate Haunt a Nation - SPIEGEL ONLINE


----------



## coley (Jul 2, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Mops and brooms become baguettes



Looking at that lot, I felt frigging sick,what a bunch of privileged, self satisfied, self indulgent wankers.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 2, 2016)

coley said:


> Looking at that lot, I felt frigging sick,what a bunch of privileged, self satisfied, self indulgent wankers.


post up a picture of yourself and lets us have a go at this judgement lark


----------



## coley (Jul 2, 2016)

editor said:


> Some photos from Parliament Square. Lots of young people are well pissed off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Take it you couldn't find the Port Talbot EU support group, or care workers for Europe? 
In honesty, I'm surprised, that given the Support for the EU in thon lunnern, it was a fairly small turnout.


----------



## coley (Jul 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Compared to the poll tax protests, I'd say that registers about 0.5 on the pissed off scale


And on the Iraq war protests, or the countryside alliance? This 'protest' was nowt mair than an exercise  in self indulgence.


----------



## coley (Jul 2, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Bear in mind there are people in the country right now like my cousin who is scared to speak in public now as he doesn't want people to know he's not English... from what little i heard about today i heard people were saying 'we know today makes no difference but we wanted people to feel welcome in england'...for people like my cousin that might actually be just a little reassuring.
> 
> I havent read the thread but im sure theres lots of pisstaking etc - fine - but bearing in mind the outpouring of hatred theres been this week im glad this happened.



Locally, we don't need to have marches to make those who have moved here feel welcome, we just treat them like everyone else, always have done.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 2, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> We, the more priviliged and highly educated, demand that the referendum be declared null and void due to its undemocratic nature, namely, too many chavs, who have _no adequate understanding of the issues, _voted in it. The Low paid shouldn't have the vote.



and no ' stake in the country " either, the grubby no mark oiks .its like Downton Abbey shit this stuff.

Pilgers take on it

Why the British said no to Europe

_The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".


The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain's second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, "experiencing the effects of extreme poverty" and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.


Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about "leaving Europe", as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland._


*On the morning after the vote, a BBC radio reporter welcomed politicians to his studio as old chums. "Well," he said to "Lord" Peter Mandelson, the disgraced architect of Blairism, "why do these people want it so badly?" The "these people" are the majority of Britons.*


----------



## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> and no ' stake in the country " either, the grubby no mark oiks .its like Downton Abbey shit this stuff.
> 
> Pilgers take on it
> 
> ...



Says it all, but the "one third'" can make life very difficult for the other two thirds.


----------



## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> post up a picture of yourself and lets us have a go at this judgement lark



You first


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> Looking at that lot, I felt frigging sick,what a bunch of privileged, self satisfied, self indulgent wankers.


Wow. You're really quite prejudiced aren't you?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> post up a picture of yourself and lets us have a go at this judgement lark


Indeed. But then it's always easy to snipe away as an InternetZ Warr10r.  I'm glad people are getting off their arses,


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Some photos from Parliament Square. Lots of young people are well pissed off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do we want? 
Cheap au pairs.  
When do we want 'em? 
Just make sure they're white.


(I already used this on twitter but think it can stand another outing)


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> What do we want?
> Cheap au pairs.
> When do we want 'em?
> Just make sure they're white.
> ...


Did it get any kind of positive response the first time around?


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

pretty good, more retweets then you ever get


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

not that I've ever looked


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> pretty good, more retweets then you ever get


Ooh, a challenge. Show us the tweet then and let's see what kind of people were retweeting it.


----------



## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Wow. You're really quite prejudiced aren't you?



How, exactly?
ETA, I believe I missed a comma.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Indeed. But then it's always easy to snipe away as an InternetZ Warr10r.  I'm glad people are getting off their arses,


To _support_ the EU?* To argue that there should be another referendum? To bid up the LibDems? 

*rather than just arguing for a Remain vote


----------



## Patteran (Jul 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Anyone know who organised that march today in London?



Secret Cinema/Fabien Riggall (unless i'm missing the point & it was a loaded, rhetorical question)


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> How exactly?


By describing a bunch of people you've never met - or know the slightest thing about  - as a " bunch of privileged, self satisfied, self indulgent wankers."


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> To _support_ the EU?* To argue that there should be another referendum? To bid up the LibDems?
> 
> *rather than just arguing for a Remain vote


A wide range of opinions and 'solutions' were being argued at the protest.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Ooh, a challenge. Show us the tweet then and let's see what kind of people were retweeting it.



 do you really want to do this?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> do you really want to do this?


You're the one doing the weird bragging'n'boasting, so you may as well back up this MASSIVE retweet tally for everyone to be suitably impressed by.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> A wide range of opinions and 'solutions' were being argued at the protest.


Sure, I'm asking you which ones you where thinking were worth "people getting off their arses for"?


----------



## JimW (Jul 3, 2016)

"Monti, Monti, Monti... In! In! In!"


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You're the one doing the weird bragging'n'boasting, so you may as well back up this MASSIVE retweet tally for everyone to be suitably impressed by.



wasn't that big, just bigger than you ever get


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> By describing a bunch of people you've never met - or know the slightest thing about  - as a " bunch of privileged, self satisfied, self indulgent wankers."



Tbh, a march right in the centre of London isn't going to change too many minds, not on this issue anyway.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Sure, I'm asking you which ones you where thinking were worth "people getting off their arses for"?


Sometimes I can just be impressed by the energy and commitment of people getting off their arses and protesting even if I don't agree with all the opinions being expressed. Is that OK with you?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 3, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Tbh, a march right in the centre of London isn't going to change too many minds, not on this issue anyway.



I mean, an expedition to the provinces that voted leave would probably be a bit of a hassle. No night buses, yeah?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Tbh, a march right in the centre of London isn't going to change too many minds, not on this issue anyway.


Of course, not, but then that's not always the point. Marches can mean disparate groups of people can connect with each other, have a healthy vent and it keeps the issue in the news. That's often a good starting point, no?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> wasn't that big, just bigger than you ever get


#backtrack #bluffcalled #weirdboasting #lolcakes


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

#yourtwitter #justlookingnow #noretweets


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> #yourtwitter #justlookingnow #noretweets


Show up or shut up, Mr Hopeless-Bluff-Called-On-Ludicrous-Willy-Waving-Claim.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Show up or shut up, Mr Hopeless-Bluff-Called-On-Ludicrous-Willy-Waving-Claim.



happy to pm it to you, got 18 retweets, not that many as I said


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

not that this fucking matters


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> happy to pm it to you, got 18 retweets, not that many as I said


That really isn't a figure to boast about. 


smokedout said:


> not that this fucking matters


Then why brag about it? Weird.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Sometimes I can just be impressed by the energy and commitment of people getting off their arses and protesting even if I don't agree with all the opinions being expressed.


That doesn't answer the question I asked, are you glad people are getting off their arses to argue in _support_ of the EU? To cheer on LibDem wankers?

You can do whatever you want but I think arguing in support of the EU is terrible liberal nonsense. Getting the leader of party which attacked the poorest people in the country to speak is not just shit but shows up plenty of these people as mugs.



> “I’m here because I feel totally disenfranchised, hoodwinked and browbeaten into this political, financial and social suicide,” said Mark Riminton, a business consultant from Sussex, “and the only thing I can think of to do is go on a march.”


Oh poor him. Of course he doesn't actually know what it feels like to be disenfranchised, unlike so many of the people who voted Leave.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> That really isn't a figure to boast about.
> Then why brag about it? Weird.



I only said it was more than you get


----------



## Wilf (Jul 3, 2016)

ffsear said:


> their saying around 30k,	roughly a mid table prem football clash


Think of it as a very well attended non-league hipster football match.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> That doesn't answer the question I asked, are you glad people are getting off their arses to argue in _support_ of the EU? To cheer on LibDem wankers?
> 
> You can do whatever you want but I think arguing in support of the EU is terrible liberal nonsense. Getting the leader of party which attacked the poorest people in the country to speak is not just shit but shows up plenty of these people as mugs.


I can't speak for all the people on the protest and, as I've explained, there was a fairly diverse range of opinions being expressed, neither am I going to get into an argument defending whatever position it is you don't like. It's a complex issue with a myriad of possible outcomes. I'm still working out my take on it. 

But I'm generally always for people getting off their arses and doing something rather than lolling about in their chair and 'liking' some fucking post on Facebook or whatever and thinking it adds up to much.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I only said it was more than you get


Then you are very, very, very wrong. And what a silly thing to try and brag about anyway. Quite childish.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Think of it as a very well attended non-league hipster football match.


How many non-league hipster football matches get 30,000 people?


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Then you are very, very, very wrong. And what a silly thing to try and brag about anyway. Quite childish.



fair enough, i only scrolled back about three months, when do I get to more than 4 reweets?


----------



## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> By describing a bunch of people you've never met - or know the slightest thing about  - as a " bunch of privileged, self satisfied, self indulgent wankers."



Aye you might have a point, given the media has made a point of interviewing leavers, focusing on those whose appearance and views suit the establishment viewpoint,  that leavers are (and I base my opinion on those who I have seen interviewed on the street, as opposed to those in various TV chat shows)
Who are invariably overweight, who fail to express a coherent viewpoint (other than its all about immigration innit) and if they can be seen smoking and chewing a burger! And pushing a child in a pushchair while doing so ?
All more grist to the neoliberal mill, mind you, if they can be depicted, pushing a small child in a pushchair, while smoking and scoffing a Big Mac and slurping a tin of super strength lager, while reading the sun/mail, while filling in their benefit application forms and at the same time denouncing immigrants.
Aye, no doubt us multi tasking Northerners were the focus of the self indulgent marchers in London earlier today.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> That doesn't answer the question I asked, are you glad people are getting off their arses to argue in _support_ of the EU? To cheer on LibDem wankers?
> 
> You can do whatever you want but I think arguing in support of the EU is terrible liberal nonsense. Getting the leader of party which attacked the poorest people in the country to speak is not just shit but shows up plenty of these people as mugs.
> 
> Oh poor him. Of course he doesn't actually know what it feels like to be disenfranchise, unlike so many of the people who voted Leave.


rimington lol


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I can't speak for all the people on the protest and, as I've explained, there was a fairly diverse range of opinions being expressed


I've not asked you to, I asked whether in _your_ opinion it is/was a good thing that people were marching in support of the EU and cheering on LibDem filth. If you don't know/don't want to answer fine but don't pretend I'm asking you to speak for the whole march.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> fair enough, i only scrolled back about three months, when do I get to more than 4 reweets?


The last thing I wrote on Buzz (this afternoon) has already been shared 916 times. Some articles have been shared and retweeted thousands of times. Now put your little willly away, ffs. This is embarrassing.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> You can do whatever you want but I think arguing in support of the EU is terrible liberal nonsense. Getting the leader of party which attacked the poorest people in the country to speak is not just shit but shows up plenty of these people as mugs.



Gosh, I wish I was as ideologically pure as you, redsquirrel, but it would just be so exhausting keeping up with the condemnations and compiling the lists


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I've not asked you to, I asked whether in _your_ opinion it is/was a good thing that people were marching in support of the EU and cheering on LibDem filth.


Can't be arsed to deal with your Big Agenda tonight, thanks.


----------



## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Sometimes I can just be impressed by the energy and commitment of people getting off their arses and protesting even if I don't agree with all the opinions being expressed. Is that OK with you?


Aye, remember the 'Jarrow march' got a lot of support from your lot, didn't it? Expect a similar level of support for your ' march'  from today's ' disenfranchised'


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, remember the 'Jarrow march' got a lot of support from your lot, didn't it? Expect a similar level of support for your ' march'  from today's ' disenfranchised'


"You lot"? WTF.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Gosh, I wish I was as ideologically pure as you, redsquirrel, but it would just be so exhausting keeping up with the condemnations and compiling the lists


Yeah, not cheering on a party in coalition government for five years during which they taxed the poor to support the rich, raised tuition fees to £9000, ramped the privatisation of the education sector up a gear, etc is being ideologically pure. 

Not cheering on a neo-liberal institution forcing millions of people into poverty throughout Europe, paying developing countries to set up camps for immigrants is being ideologically pure. 

Maybe it's just called having some fucking politics and not being a wet liberal cunt.


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## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> The last thing I wrote on Buzz (this afternoon) has already been shared 916 times. Some articles have been shared and retweeted thousands of times. Now put your little willly away, ffs. This is embarrassing.



you see what I did there?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> you see what I did there?


You seem weirdly obsessed about bragging about a really inconsequential amount of retweets for a crappy post.  If it makes you feel better: yes, you are the king of retweets. No one can match *18* retweets. Whoop! That is amazing! You are the King of the Internezzzzzzzzzzz.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ill just add here i won't be even remotely surprised to see this result fudged and then overturned . not even remotely surprised . because I've seen it happen twice ..no..3 times..before in the last few years..Lisbon treaty, Nice Treaty..Greek referendum on austerity  . And fuck all happened as a result. Either in Ireland or Greece. A major reason why i voted no . Fact is these cunts out marching are the ones who are actually tapped into the system. The ones the media and elites are friendly with..they are much more likely to relate to each other . They don't call them " these people " on the BBC . They just call them people. They humanise them right from the get go. They might actually get what they want. They own the commentariat, they control the narrative. Or vice versa to be more precise. Theres a good chance they'll get their way .


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> ill just add here i won't be even remotely surprised to see this result fudged and then overturned . not even remotely surprised . because I've seen it happen twice before in the last few years . And fuck all happened as a result. Either in Ireland or Greece. A major reason why i voted no . Fact is these cunts out marching are the ones who are actually tapped into the system. The ones the media and elites are friendly with..they are much more likely to relate to each other . They don't call them " these people " on the BBC . They just call them people. They humanise them right from the get go. They might actually get what they want. They own the commentariat, they control the narrative. Or vice versa to be more precise. Theres a good chance they'll get their way .


You don't think you might be negatively stereotyping just a _teensy weensy_ bit here?


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Maybe it's just called having some fucking politics and not being a wet liberal cunt.



Beep boop. A kinder, more inclusive kind of politics.


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## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> "You lot"? WTF.



Don't act dim, 'your lot' being the same smug well heeled London/ SE metropolitan elite of the 20s/30s, something's never change. Mind you, that might not be true these days, if the ME elite are thwarted  in getting the referendum overturned, might even visit lunnern just to hear the outraged screams


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> Don't act dim, 'your lot' being the same smug well heeled London/ SE metropolitan elite of the 20s/30s, something's never change. Mind you, that might not be true these days, if the ME elite are thwarted  in getting the referendum overturned, might even visit lunnern just to hear the outraged screams


Bit pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who can only see the world in such ridiculous black/white, chip-on-the-shoulder stereotypes. Oh well. Enjoy slagging off all those people you know nothing about, But you've seen the _photos_, right?


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You don't think you might be negatively stereotyping just a _teensy weensy_ bit here?



While id accept the situation for the people marching is a bit more nuanced than that, i don't think I'm stereotyping the likes of the commentariat or the BBC for a minute. Nor do i believe I'm wrong that the demands the result is overturned stands a higher chance of success due to the social inclusion of of those who support it, when compared to the social exclusion of many who voted no . Yeah, fair point, I'm using a pretty broad brush to paint the situation but ultimately i think my points a valid one.


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Beep boop. A kinder, more inclusive kind of politics.


Sorry, where have I argued for a more inclusive politics? Inclusive of who, being the question of course. Those who have _sensible_ opinions and are the right sort of people.

Liberalism is responsible for the increasing inequality in the UK, it is responsible for the dismantling of the welfare state and the attacks on other countries. Like any socialist/communist I'm utterly opposed to liberalism. That doesn't mean that I won't work with liberals on a tactical level but any sort of progressive mash up can fuck right off, it's simply (yet another) attack on labour.


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## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Bit pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who can only see the world in such ridiculous black/white, chip-on-the-shoulder stereotypes. Oh well. Enjoy slagging off all those people you know nothing about, But you've seen the _photos_, right?



Thank you sincerely.
You have clearly illustrated the points I have been trying to make and if anyone should doubt the 'London centric' direction of the management of urban 75, and it's blind pursuance of the EUs desire to install a superstate across Europe? than you have clearly dispelled all doubts.
Yes I looked at the *"photos" *not bad, slightly better than average, well done.


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## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

I don't think the march mattered tbh. They rarely do and this one less than most. At least I find it hard to believe that any meaningful front is going to emerge from it, be it anti-racist, pro EU or politically alternative. Tim Farron and Bob Geldof make good symbols for it - feel good, immediate and easily forgotten.

That said I'm not sure why people are so arsey about it. Some in attendance are no doubt tossers who feel wiser or more profound about the issues than their 'inferiors'. Others are doing it earnestly and with good intent. Both groups existed yesterday and will tomorrow, means nothing if they do pointless things.

Best I'd hope for is that a few more people become aware of how little they matter and start looking for the real power and influence. As I say though, doubt the issue will grip most for long enough. 

Why waste anger on it? Plenty who deserve it more.


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## coley (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Bit pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who can only see the world in such ridiculous black/white, chip-on-the-shoulder stereotypes. Oh well. Enjoy slagging off all those people you know nothing about, But you've seen the _photos_, right?



Sorry, you may be getting confused, its Coley from Northumberland, not Sturgeon from Scotland
Still only slightly above average photos though


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Like any socialist/communist I'm utterly opposed to liberalism. That doesn't mean that I won't work with liberals on a tactical level but any sort of progressive mash up can fuck right off, it's simply (yet another) attack on labour.



Good luck (you'll need it).


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Best I'd hope for is that a few more people become aware of how little they matter and start looking for the real power and influence. As I say though, doubt the issue will grip most for long enough.


I think there willl be far more that end up getting mugged by the LibDems again. And that's why I think it was at best very silly and at worst indicative of the type of thing that some of us are going to have to fight in the future.

Butchers said it better than me


butchersapron said:


> It's, in fact, become increasingly clear that any substantial social change to the benefit of the working classes across europe and wider is going to have to carried out _against the progressives._ Not the sort of civil rights stuff that capitalism can deal with and recuperate, the nice stuff, i mean the real social relation challenging stuff.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

YouSir said:


> I don't think the march mattered tbh. They rarely do and this one less than most. At least I find it hard to believe that any meaningful front is going to emerge from it, be it anti-racist, pro EU or politically alternative. Tim Farron and Bob Geldof make good symbols for it - feel good, immediate and easily forgotten.
> 
> That said I'm not sure why people are so arsey about it. Some in attendance are no doubt tossers who feel wiser or more profound about the issues than their 'inferiors'. Others are doing it earnestly and with good intent. Both groups existed yesterday and will tomorrow, means nothing if they do pointless things.
> 
> ...




part of me wishes Britain really had become a proper little England, no forriners type of place just so  they'd fuck geldof out ...just to see his stupid  face . But then he'd be back over here...and there'd be a look on my face . You're welcome to the cunt. Honestly .

he's never made me feel good and i really fail to see the feel good factor in Thatchers favourite charity campaigner. He's a low down rotten bastard of the worst kind. Only surpassed in his clown for the elites field by bono.


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## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, remember the 'Jarrow march' got a lot of support from your lot, didn't it? Expect a similar level of support for your ' march'  from today's ' disenfranchised'



You are older than I thought. Probably a bit too old for a diving course in Thailand. I'd stick to some aqua aerobics in your local pool. Were you a kid when you went on the Jarrow march?


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## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, not cheering on a party in coalition government for five years during which they taxed the poor to support the rich, raised tuition fees to £9000, ramped the privatisation of the education sector up a gear, etc is being ideologically pure.
> 
> Not cheering on a neo-liberal institution forcing millions of people into poverty throughout Europe, paying developing countries to set up camps for immigrants is being ideologically pure.
> 
> Maybe it's just called having some fucking politics and not being a wet liberal cunt.



Why are we now using liberal as an insult as they do in America. I see a lot of similarities between ideological zealots here and rhe NRA in the states.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> You are older than I thought. Probably a bit too old for a diving course in Thailand. I'd stick to some aqua aerobics in your local pool. Were you a kid when you went on the Jarrow march?


That man was living in a shoebox eating cold gravel at the bottom of a lake when oliver cromwell was in short trousers. you soft southern hipster fop.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why are we now using liberal as an insult as they do in America. I see a lot of similarities between ideological zealots here and rhe NRA in the states.



what similarities ? last time i checked a fanny on this side of the atlantic was different to over there.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why are we now using liberal as an insult as they do in America. I see a lot of similarities between ideological zealots here and rhe NRA in the states.



because the liberals are cunts


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## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> what similarities ? last time i checked a fanny on this side of the atlantic was different to over there.



Not sure anyone says fanny on this UK . So many better options.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

i do..and occasionally minge.

eta

mind you coley probably calls it a " tuppence " or something.


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## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> because the liberals are cunts



Is that not a view only those with extremist beliefs would have. Not really sure respecting other people and being open to agreeing with them is necessarily a cuntish thing.


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## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> i do..and occasionally minge.
> 
> eta
> 
> mind you coley probably calls it a " tuppence " or something.



I always found it safest to try and see what the lady likes it to be called.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why are we now using liberal as an insult as they do in America. I see a lot of similarities between ideological zealots here and rhe NRA in the states.



The use of the word liberal as an insult by some on the left was going on long before the American right wing began using it. They are also two different meanings of that word, or at least there are different connotations when a leftwinger employs the term.




			
				Lenin said:
			
		

> When a liberal is abused, he says, ‘Thank God they didn’t beat me.’ When he is beaten, he thanks God they didn’t kill him. When he is killed, he will thank God that his immortal soul has been delivered from its mortal clay



Eta: which sounds remarkably similar to some the arguments for the EU as a protector of workers' rights. 'Thank God the EU didn't beat me'


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Is that not a view only those with extremist beliefs would have. Not really sure respecting other people and being open to agreeing with them is necessarily a cuntish thing.



the clintons and blairs are both liberals. Quite the death toll they've racked up . Tolerance.. the thing that stops wars and hatreds..is the ability to put up with things you disagree with or find irksome. Not agreement with them . Liberals simply do not agree with people who disagree with them. They claim innate moral superiority, the right to be the worlds arbiters and  policemen.  Exceptionalism even, on the basis they are on the side of the angels and anyone who isn't needs sorting out . Total moral superiority . On the one hand this means people who vote the wrong way can have their votes legitimately overturned according to liberal mores and hypocrisy . And on the other they can be bombed, droned, couped  or invaded. Or just demonised. By liberals.

from what i can see many liberals are extremists. Liberals voted for the iRAQ WAR. The libyan debacle. The syrian debacle. The yugoslav debacle. Bernard Henri Levy Tony Blair, Hillary Clinton...all liberals. All warmongering cunts. All extremists. Convinced of their liberal righteousness.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The use of the word liberal as an insult by some on the left was going on long before the American right wing began using it. They are also two different meanings of that word, or at least there are different connotations when a leftwinger employs the term.
> 
> 
> 
> Eta: which sounds remarkably similar to some the arguments for the EU as a protector of workers' rights. 'Thank God the EU didn't beat me'



the EU was only ever a rich mans club. A club of the colonialist and imperialist elites. When faced with a threat from the left ..namely the communists...they chucked around enhanced workers rights and the likes out of self preservation. As a bribe. Now they're no longer faced with that threat ,austerity and increased neo liberalism is the order of the day right across the board . Why are any leftists clinging to this edifice when austerity, food banks, privatisation, and ttips are the order of the day . ZERO hour contracts..foodbanks...what fucking workers rights ? its only ever been a contract not to have socialism. There were concessions..but with an unaccountable bearaucracy ruling over everything... whats given yesterday can be taken away and theres fuck all you can do about it. It tramples over entire countries. It wants to a be a superstate. its just rotten from start to finish, top to bottom. Its about elites and nothing else. The privilege of capital. It will steamroller the fuck right over you if your weak..proven time and time again. It can fuck off. that and the liberal horse it rode in on .


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why are we now using liberal as an insult as they do in America. I see a lot of similarities between ideological zealots here and rhe NRA in the states.


I'm not using liberal as just an insult, I'm also using it as a descriptor of people's politics


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why are we now using liberal as an insult as they do in America. I see a lot of similarities between ideological zealots here and rhe NRA in the states.


Sadly we don't have guns. Or ready access to politicians.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm still working out my take on it.



Perhaps a trip back to the Valleys to see why they voted in a way that upset all the advertising PRs, business consultants and other worthies who got off their arses yesterday in the hope of defeating democracy might help you work out your take on it?


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## brogdale (Jul 3, 2016)

Patteran said:


> Secret Cinema/Fabien Riggall (unless i'm missing the point & it was a loaded, rhetorical question)


No loading...and thanks...I was struggling to see where the organisation was coming from, (I'm not on FB).
So...who or what are these folks, then? Are they of 'the left'?


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## ska invita (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> Don't act dim, 'your lot' being the same smug well heeled London/ SE metropolitan elite of the 20s/30s, something's never change. Mind you, that might not be true these days, if the ME elite are thwarted  in getting the referendum overturned, might even visit lunnern just to hear the outraged screams


Can we please stop this Pure Northern Class Consciousness vs London Liberal Smun Cunts FC delineation. It couldn't be more stupid.
First of all 40% of Londoners voted Leave - millions of people. Then you have to make up a story in your head about who the people are on both sides of the vote and what their intentions are. The fact that many of the leave voters were well healed folk living in the home county bordering boroughs is just one of many complexities to this.

For a board thats meant to care about politics its really backwards. The referendum is complex and full of contradictions upon contradictions - so much discussion already but it seems the lesson drawn my some is Londoners are cunts Northerners are mint. 

London is a cosmopolitan, multicultural city. Just us many Leave voters didnt really care about the EU but voted to kick the establishment, so many of those London remain voters didnt really vote about the EU but voted for Europe and their European friends and neighbours in it.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Join me in taking to the streets as I go for a pub lunch


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 3, 2016)

coley said:


> Don't act dim, 'your lot' being the same smug well heeled London/ SE metropolitan elite of the 20s/30s, something's never change. Mind you, that might not be true these days, if the ME elite are thwarted  in getting the referendum overturned, might even visit lunnern just to hear the outraged screams



By 'your lot' do you mean anyone on that march or just remain voter in general? 20/30s somethings? Do you know how old Ed is? 

When is the last time you visited London? When you came here where did you go? What do you know about working class people here? What do you know about deprived parts of London? How do you account for the 40% of Londoners that voted leave?


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## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

Can anyone confirm what i read elsewhere that there were no labour movement banners and that there was a demand that Corbyn resign made from the platform, and if so, who made it?


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Perhaps a trip back to the Valleys to see why they voted in a way that upset all the advertising PRs, business consultants and other worthies who got off their arses yesterday in the hope of defeating democracy might help you work out your take on it?


Perhaps I'm already fully aware of those circumstances, but thanks for the patronising tip.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Leeds, yesterday:







‘Mama, will you be deported?’: Brexit vote triggers eruption of racism


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Perhaps I'm already fully aware of those circumstances, but thanks for the patronising tip.




You're welcome.


So knowing why the majority voted leave, you still think it is a good thing the marches take place with the aim of overturning the result?

Even Blair has piped up today, saying the unwashed masses got it wrong and should have another go at it. Talk about lie with dogs...


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## brogdale (Jul 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone confirm what i read elsewhere that there were no labour movement banners and that there was a demand that Corbyn resign made from the platform, and if so, who made it?


Cant' confirm (as wasn't there) but '_Secret Cinema'_'s (who the fuck?) twitter feed claimed that London MPs David Lammy & Katherine West addressed the Parliament Sq. rally.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> So knowing why the majority voted leave, you still think it is a good thing the marches take place with the aim of overturning the result?
> ...


You've never been in a protest representing a minority belief? If people have beef with how the referendum was run - or any other part of the process, or what's happened since - why the fuck shouldn't they get out on the streets and express it? Or do you think they should just hush now and leave pledge-shifting politicians and right wing media to get on with, it while racism grows like a filthy cancer?

Oh, I couldn't give a fuck what Blair thinks. Not sure why you do.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> So knowing why the majority voted leave, you still think it is a good thing the marches take place with the aim of overturning the result?
> ...


Dogs don't lie like Blair lies.


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## J Ed (Jul 3, 2016)

You people, these people.. urgh


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You've never been in a protest representing a minority belief? If people have beef with how the referendum was run - or any other part of the process, or what's happened since - why the fuck shouldn't they get out on the streets and express it? Or do you think they should just hush now and leave pledge-shifting politicians and right wing media to get on with, it while racism grows like a filthy cancer?
> 
> Oh, I couldn't give a fuck what Blair thinks. Not sure why you do.




So when Labour get in at the next election we'll be seeing you championing the rights of the Tories to demand that the result is overtuned cos the working classes don't know what's good for them will we?


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So when Labour get in at the next election we'll be seeing you championing the rights of the Tories to demand that the result is overtuned cos the working classes don't know what's good for them will we?


Come on. You're smarter than this simplistic nonsense.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You people, these people.. urgh


It's hideously divisive.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You people, these people.. urgh





Sums them up perfectly, "do you not have any respect?"


Yes, for the democratic mandate, what about you?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Come on. You're smarter than this simplistic nonsense.



And you're not normally one to cheerlead for folk such as the woman in that video.

The remainers should grow up and respect the will of the people, then try and make Brexit work best for the country, rather than whinging like a bunch of primary school kids about how the whole thing is so unfair.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And you're not normally one to cheerlead for folk such as the woman in that video.


Woooaargh, there. Where the fuck was I "cheerleading" that video?  Show me. What's the matter with you? Why are you making such nonsense up?


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## planetgeli (Jul 3, 2016)

Christ almighty. People on here who have been going on about extra-parliamentary activity, rightly, for years, now getting all arsey about 'the democratic mandate' and their opponents laying down with Tony Blair as a way of dealing with their own discomfort at laying down with racists from West Devon and public schoolboys who can't even tie a banner on a plane properly so it crashes.

Anyway, so many posts, as usual, just can't work out why the working class utopia hasn't arisen yet. Your arguments being eloquent and foolproof as presented.


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## brogdale (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The remainers should grow up and respect the will of the people, then try and make Brexit work best for the country, rather than whinging like a bunch of primary school kids about how the whole thing is so unfair.


I'd imagine we've all been on protests/demos disputing 'democratic' outcomes. There's nothing inherently wrong with people protesting in what they believe to be their own interests.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

planetgeli said:


> Christ almighty. People on here who have been going on about extra-parliamentary activity, rightly, for years, now getting all arsey about 'the democratic mandate' and their opponents laying down with Tony Blair as a way of dealing with their own discomfort at laying down with racists from West Devon and public schoolboys who can't even tie a banner on a plane properly so it crashes.
> 
> Anyway, so many posts, as usual, just can't work out why the working class utopia hasn't arisen yet. Your arguments being eloquent and foolproof as presented.


Iirc the bnp opposed the war in Iraq yet I have never heard anyone say the anti-war people should be careful who they lay down with


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## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

planetgeli said:


> Christ almighty. People on here who have been going on about extra-parliamentary activity, rightly, for years, now getting all arsey about 'the democratic mandate' and their opponents laying down with Tony Blair as a way of dealing with their own discomfort at laying down with racists from West Devon and public schoolboys who can't even tie a banner on a plane properly so it crashes.
> 
> Anyway, so many posts, as usual, just can't work out why the working class utopia hasn't arisen yet. Your arguments being eloquent and foolproof as presented.



No one said there'd be a utopia.

And no one lay down with racists. Though God knows that sort of divisive argument, promoted by the media and the Remain campaign has turned the biggest democratic decision in my lifetime into a disgusting excersize in fear mongering and propaganda. Although why so many people have capitulated to that rather than ignore or attack it is beyond me.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Woooaargh, there. Where the fuck was I "cheerleading" that video?  Show me. What's the matter with you? Why are you making such nonsense up?



Did I say you were cheerleading the video? So why do you state that is what I said, why the need to twist words to suit your agenda?

What you did say was:



editor said:


> I'm glad people are getting off their arses,



The country voted, a bunch of liberal elites didn't like the way it went and have spent a week throwing their toys out of the pram. And you're glad. Well bully for you. And tough titties to them, we're leaving the EU and they can cry all the way back to Chiswick.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'd imagine we've all been on protests/demos disputing 'democratic' outcomes. There's nothing inherently wrong with people protesting in what they believe to be their own interests.




I can't recall there ever being a protest march demanding the result of a nation wide election to be overturned. Slightly different to marching to oppose a bill that a serving government wishes to push through, normally one that was not even in their manifesto, no?


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## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I can't recall there ever being a protest march demanding the result of a nation wide election to be overturned. Slightly different to marching to oppose a bill that a serving government wishes to push through, normally one that was not even in their manifesto, no?



There was an anti-Tory protest after the last election. Limited turnout though and not hugely well received.

Maintain that the Remain march doesn't matter though.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I can't recall there ever being a protest march demanding the result of a nation wide election to be overturned. Slightly different to marching to oppose a bill that a serving government wishes to push through, normally one that was not even in their manifesto, no?


No government serves anything except their own interests


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No government serves



Which is why they'll never win Wimbledon.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> It's hideously divisive.



It's amazing how intelligent and highly educated middle class people are incapable of telling the difference between Europe the continent with its collection of countries and an undemocratic, exploitative, racist, neoliberal superstate.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 3, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> It's amazing how intelligent and highly educated middle class people are incapable of telling the difference between Europe the continent with its collection of countries and an undemocratic, exploitative, racist, neoliberal superstate.



What made you think that the woman in that video was intelligent?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

So middle class kids from the cities are marching - not against an unpopular government policy, but a decision reached about as democratically as possible. 

Well apart from not allowing migrants to put forward their view, but still.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

planetgeli said:


> Christ almighty. People on here who have been going on about extra-parliamentary activity, rightly, for years,


In what way was this march an extra-parliamentary activity? It was shot through with politicians - Farron, Lammy, etc = proudly telling people that they intend to vote against any attempt to leave the EU. The editor seems to be right when he says that there were lots of varying opinions present, but the MPs attending quite clearly are using this march as way of shoring up a "No Leaving the EU" argument.

I agree with brogdale that there's not necessarily anything wrong with people marching to put demonstrate their views, but while attending marches is better than just liking things on the internet it's still very far from the real political activity of being an active union member or participating in our local anti-cuts group.

EDIT: Did you attend? If so can you answer BA's questions? They seem pretty important to me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So middle class kids from the cities are marching - not against an unpopular government policy, but a decision reached about as democratically as possible.
> 
> Well apart from not allowing migrants to put forward their view, but still.


I was under the impression a range of immigrants had a vote in the recent plebiscite


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## seventh bullet (Jul 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What made you think that the woman in that video was intelligent?



I was taking the piss, given how leave voters are supposed to be thick racist lumpenproles.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I was under the impression a range of immigrants had a vote in the recent plebiscite



I thought only those with a UK passport/papers could vote. Ie - the ones that won't be affected by the decision.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought only those with a UK passport/papers could vote. Ie - the ones that won't be affected by the decision.


Yeh cos UK voters not affected by the vote


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## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought only those with a UK passport/papers could vote. Ie - the ones that won't be affected by the decision.


Any resident commonwealth or irish citizen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought only those with a UK passport/papers could vote. Ie - the ones that won't be affected by the decision.


EU Referendum - About my vote


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh cos UK voters not affected by the vote



Not in terms of residential status in the UK.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So middle class kids from the cities are marching...


Oh, were they all wearing badges proclaiming their middle class backgrounds? I missed that.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Any resident commonwealth or irish citizen.



Fair enough. My point stands though regarding it not being fully democratic.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> .... but while attending marches is better than just liking things on the internet it's still very far from the real political activity of being an active union member or participating in our local anti-cuts group.


Amazingly, some were all three.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Oh, were they all wearing badges proclaiming their middle class backgrounds? I missed that.



You don't see this vote being divided along social class?


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Amazingly, some were all three.


Sure never claimed otherwise just making the point that while marches/demonstrations have their value it's the day to day stuff that people do in their communities/workplaces that are the most important political actions.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Sure never claimed otherwise just making the point that while marches/demonstrations have their value it's the day to day stuff that people do in their communities/workplaces that are the most important political actions.


Of course. But marches can provide a great way for political 'newbies' or those not living in active communities to meet and interact with such people and maybe get more involved.

Some of the unpleasant sneering and opprobrium hurled at yesterday's marchers by posters here has been quite depressing to read.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You've never been in a protest representing a minority belief? If people have beef with how the referendum was run - or any other part of the process, or what's happened since - why the fuck shouldn't they get out on the streets and express it? Or do you think they should just hush now and leave pledge-shifting politicians and right wing media to get on with, it while racism grows like a filthy cancer?
> 
> Oh, I couldn't give a fuck what Blair thinks. Not sure why you do.



The trouble is though Blairs just the tip of a spear. He's a mouthpiece for a cabal who still wield a lot of power and influence within politics and media . People who actually can get the vote overturned . And who probably will .
Particularly if you have a quick gander at the list of previous referenda results they didn't like across the EU



That's a major reason why someone like myself gets the jitters when I see these marches and petitions accompanied by calls from the elite to overturn the result because people voted wrong. Been here before, twice already . They'll fucking do it . .


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> The trouble is though Blairs just the tip of a spear. He's a mouthpiece for a cabal who still wield a lot of power and influence within politics and media . People who actually can get the vote overturned . And who probably will .
> Particularly if you have a quick gander at the list of previous referenda results they didn't like across the EU
> 
> 
> ...



What about this guy?

Legal academic says Leave campaign was ‘criminally irresponsible’


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## Patteran (Jul 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> No loading...and thanks...I was struggling to see where the organisation was coming from, (I'm not on FB).
> So...who or what are these folks, then? Are they of 'the left'?



They are of PR. Arts/Commerce. I know very little about them, other than the Secret Cinema '28 Days Later' event - a film inflated into a 21st century ghost train experience that garnered some press & social media traction earlier this year. Watch the film in a spooky environment while minimum wage workers lurch around the soft drinks concession in zombie costumes. Raaaaargh. 



butchersapron said:


> Can anyone confirm what i read elsewhere that there were no labour movement banners and that there was a demand that Corbyn resign made from the platform, and if so, who made it?



Bob Geldof. Sir Bob Geldof, keynote speaker - made the comment to the press at the end - dunno if it was made from the platform, but it was made because of his place on the platform.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> What about this guy?
> 
> Legal academic says Leave campaign was ‘criminally irresponsible’



I imagine Blair will find him very useful when it comes to overthrowing the result . Which will probably happen .


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

Patteran said:


> Bob Geldof. Sir Bob Geldof, keynote speaker - made the comment to the press at the end - dunno if it was made from the platform, but it was made because of his place on the platform.


Is this first hand knowledge or just a report you've heard?


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## Patteran (Jul 3, 2016)

From their Facebook 



> oin the 'March for Europe' on Saturday July 2nd in London.
> Now, is the time to take action.
> 
> Bring musical instruments, flags, and banners to support the movement.
> ...



'An end to political indecision'. If only someone _decisive_ would lead us out of this nightmare...


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## Patteran (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Is this first hand knowledge or just a report you've heard?



The comments were made to LBC radio & reported widely across social media. I wasn't there, no.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Patteran said:


> They are of PR. Arts/Commerce. I know very little about them, other than the Secret Cinema '28 Days Later' event - a film inflated into a 21st century ghost train experience that garnered some press & social media traction earlier this year. Watch the film in a spooky environment while minimum wage workers lurch around the soft drinks concession in zombie costumes. Raaaaargh.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Geldof. Sir Bob Geldof, keynote speaker - made the comment to the press at the end - dunno if it was made from the platform, but it was made because of his place on the platform.



Hipster rip off merchants

Opinion: 'Secret Cinema: Star Wars' is a ripoff pantomime


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## Patteran (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Is this first hand knowledge or just a report you've heard?



LBC - Bob Geldof: Corbyn Must Step Down

Secondary source - 'Resign'.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> I imagine Blair will find him very useful when it comes to overthrowing the result . Which will probably happen .


Rather than throwing in an unfounded link with Blair, what is your criticism of his actual findings?


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Patteran said:


> LBC - Bob Geldof: Corbyn Must Step Down
> 
> Secondary source - 'Resign'.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Rather than throwing in an unfounded link with Blair, what is your criticism of his actual findings?



The totally ignoring the vote and overthrowing of democracy bit  on his arbitrary say so . The embedded assumption the people who voted no were stupid and gullible as opposed to the people who voted yes . It's not the campaign that counts..it's the vote . Talk like his is used to justify coups .


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Talk like his is used to justify coups .


Ah, right. So you'll just discount everything he says - he's only another of those pesky experts who knows what he's talking about, after all - on the bizarre premise that research like his "justifies coups."


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

Patteran said:


> LBC - Bob Geldof: Corbyn Must Step Down
> 
> Secondary source - 'Resign'.



Cheers,  

So in addition to this march been used by the LibDems as a way for them to crawl out from under their rock, it's also being used to attack Corbyn. As i said at best very silly


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## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

My mum was born and  bred in Inverness, from a poor family. Her dad was in the army and commited suicide when she was twelve. My grandad on my dads side was a factory worker up north. My parents did a variety of stuff throughout their lives. We were momentarily rich but also at one point lived in two rooms in a derelict flat above a shop. I have no idea what class I am, born in Bury, early childhood in Stafford, London form 13 to now. I like to think I am just classy .

We were out last night and none of the people we were with seemed bothered about class.  You could definitely describe some of them as being from socially disadvantaged backgrounds. 

Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.


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## sleaterkinney (Jul 3, 2016)

YouSir said:


> No one said there'd be a utopia.


I bet the NHS isn't getting that money either.


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## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> I bet the NHS isn't getting that money either.


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## TopCat (Jul 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You people, these people.. urgh



What a horrible loathsome mob.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Ah, right. So you'll just discount everything he says - he's only another of those pesky experts who knows what he's talking about, after all - on the bizarre premise that research like his "justifies coups."



I'm discounting everything he says because he's arguing my fucking vote should be overturned because I'm thick . The cunt . I've heard his type of arguments used to overturn 2 previous referenda already. Im sick of it. Voting might as well be abolished and just have experts like him run the show and not have to worry about the criminally irresponsible who vote wrong . Which is what the EU is about pretty much .


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> What about this guy?
> 
> Legal academic says Leave campaign was ‘criminally irresponsible’



A disgrace to academia.

With nothing to back up his claims other than his shock at the masses not voting in the way he wanted them to he states that the result is democracy failing. What a bellend.


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## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

Teresa May is the choice of Remain voters for next Prime Minister

@GoodwinMJ: Gove versus May ratings among Remain and Leave voters, via @YouGov #bbcdp #marr Matthew Goodwin on Twitter


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> at best very silly



At worst happy clappy, consumer freindly pr for the intended overthrow of roadblocks in the way of capital. Corbyn and brexit. Sock puppets for a Blair and Mandelson exercise . Somebody's hand is up the arses of those bozos .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)




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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

That was @ Anju.


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## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> At worst happy clappy, consumer freindly pr for the intended overthrow of roadblocks in the way of capital. Corbyn and brexit. Sock puppets for a Blair and Mandelson exercise . Somebody's hand is up the arses of those bozos .



Creating conspiracies where there are none. Just because some people benefit from this doesn't mean you need a tinfoil hat.


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## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Teresa May is the choice of Remain voters for next Prime Minister
> 
> @GoodwinMJ: Gove versus May ratings among Remain and Leave voters, via @YouGov #bbcdp #marr Matthew Goodwin on Twitter



G'wan Govey boy. Might be condemning myself but can see Corbyn breaking him. Lots of Remain voters turning Labour-ward. Unless people really are stupid enough to go Lib Dem.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Creating conspiracies where there are none. Just because some people benefit from this doesn't mean you need a tinfoil hat.



Geldof has long been very close to Blair and Mandelson . There's no getting away from it. He's been their court jester on previous occasions . And just happens to be leading the charge for precisely what they want. A labour leader ousted and a referendum overturned . Sounds a lot less sinister coming from a trendy pop star than a shark in a suit .


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## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Of course. But marches can provide a great way for political 'newbies' or those not living in active communities to meet and interact with such people and maybe get more involved.
> 
> Some of the unpleasant sneering and opprobrium hurled at yesterday's marchers by posters here has been quite depressing to read.


Absolutely , the Countryside Alliance being a prime example of your first sentence.


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## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You don't see this vote being divided along social class?


do you see it as only being divided along social class?  Clearly it isn't, unless you imagine the class structure of Scotland, Bristol, Belfast, Manchester, Liverpool and Cardiff as being substantially different from other parts of the country. All had a much greater Remain majority than the national majority to Leave. You'll also need to imagine that the class structure of younger, better educated people is very different from their boomer parents.

London is a bit of a special case but even after all the changes of the last couple of decades, there's still a substantial working class population.  And a massive majority to stay in: parts of Inner London* had greater majorities to stay than even the sharp end in Lincolnshire voted to leave.  People in eg Boston clearly have local considerations that affected their votes, so too must London and other big cities. 

Class is a very important aspects of understanding what has happened and is happening, but it's by no means the only aspect.




* including where both the editor and I live, at nearly 79% it's pretty unequivocal what people round here want.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Declare geldof an undesirable illegal alien and fuck him out .Trying to subvert British democracy and interfere with the workings of the house of commons by whipping up street rabble . He should be interned .


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## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> We were out last night and none of the people we were with seemed bothered about class. You could definitely describe some of them as being from socially disadvantaged backgrounds.
> 
> Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.


I kindof agree, but that's possibly a function of being Londoners.  We have to recognise just how different from the rest of the country they think we are.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A disgrace to academia.
> 
> With nothing to back up his claims other than his shock at the masses not voting in the way he wanted them to he states that the result is democracy failing. What a bellend.


Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor  has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor  has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.



Have you actually read the article you linked to?


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor  has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.



So his vote is the one that counts .


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> EDIT: Did you attend? If so can you answer BA's questions? They seem pretty important to me.



FYI No, I didn't attend. But I reckon narrowing this march down to 'being led by MPs' as a way of belittling genuine ordinary people's opinions is a bit...wrong somewhere. And for BS calling this an 'election'? Since when was a non-binding, advisory referendum the same thing as an election? Sure, as I read somewhere else, custom and practice and the arsery of not having a modern constitution might force a government to act on it in some Ill timed manner but election it wasn't and marching against it, even if David Lammy turns up, is legitimate practice. To question 'where are the labour movement banners? (which may or may not have been there, I dunno) as if this null and voids the whole thing is also a ridiculous argument.

And btw, I've marched behind MPs before and still managed to riot through central London (Poll Tax March). Obviously no extra-parliamentary activity there either.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> do you see it as only being divided along social class?  Clearly it isn't, unless you imagine the class structure of Scotland, Bristol, Belfast, Manchester, Liverpool and Cardiff as being substantially different from other parts of the country. All had a much greater Remain majority than the national majority to Leave. You'll also need to imagine that the class structure of younger, better educated people is very different from their boomer parents.
> 
> London is a bit of a special case but even after all the changes of the last couple of decades, there's still a substantial working class population.  And a massive majority to stay in: parts of Inner London* had greater majorities to stay than even the sharp end in Lincolnshire voted to leave.  People in eg Boston clearly have local considerations that affected their votes, so too must London and other big cities.
> 
> ...


In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.


Yes and something similar is mirrored in the way London voted.  Class and prosperity are clearly important but that alone cannot account for the voting patterns.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> So his vote is the one that counts .


What? His vote carries no more weight than yours or mine, but he certainly knows a damn sight more about the topic that you or I. What is your criticism of the points he raises?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> My mum was born and  bred in Inverness, from a poor family. Her dad was in the army and commited suicide when she was twelve. My grandad on my dads side was a factory worker up north. My parents did a variety of stuff throughout their lives. We were momentarily rich but also at one point lived in two rooms in a derelict flat above a shop. I have no idea what class I am, born in Bury, early childhood in Stafford, London form 13 to now. I like to think I am just classy .
> 
> We were out last night and none of the people we were with seemed bothered about class.  You could definitely describe some of them as being from socially disadvantaged backgrounds.
> 
> Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.


You might want to read most recent British Social Attiudes Survey . What are socially disadvantaged backgrounds btw?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> Yes and something similar is mirrored in the way London voted.  Class and prosperity are clearly important but that alone cannot account for the voting patterns.


Let's just say evidence shows it has been the most significant factor. I think it was Dr Mathew Goodwin who also described a key factor as ' those who have done well out of globalisation against those who have not '


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.


are they also the youngest boroughs?


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## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Nobody I know uses class to define themselves, nor lets others do so.



Class isn't (just) a cultural identity. It's your location within an economic system. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not doesn't alter that location, or the consequences that follow from being in that location.


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## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

planetgeli said:


> FYI No, I didn't attend. But I reckon narrowing this march down to 'being led by MPs' as a way of belittling genuine ordinary people's opinions is a bit...wrong somewhere.


Well it's a good job I didn't say it them isn't it. You've made that quote up, I'll assume it's by mistake rather than deliberate.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> What? His vote carries no more weight than yours or mine, but he certainly knows a damn sight more about the topic that you or I. What is your criticism of the points he raises?



I've already given you my criticisms . He's calling for the vote to be simply ignored because he doesn't like it . And he's an expert in European law , not in what motivates people to vote for their choices . That's the actual topic . People making a choice and him demanding that choice be ignored because it's the wrong one . 
If he succeeds in getting what he wants then his vote does actually carry more weight than mine, despite him losing . 

I'm not sure you've actually read that article or digested it . He's certainly not giving any expert advice  despite his degree.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> What is your criticism of the points he raises?





> “Around half the country is going to feel like democracy has let them down and that’s a sad and really quite troubling outcome.”
> 
> Endorsing calls for the Government to ignore the referendum result, Mr Dougan said there is a “*constitutional responsibility to protect the national interest*”, with Parliament the ultimate decision-maker on whether the UK actually leaves the European Union.



ffs


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

He's upset cos a Professor of European Law's standing will be diminished by the country not being in the EU. Just another self-serving, whinge-bag.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> are they also the youngest boroughs?


No don't think so. Stockport has a high elderly population . I seem to recall Oldham had quite a high youth population


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He's upset cos a Professor of European Law's standing will be diminished by the country not being in the EU. Just another self-serving, whinge-bag.



Nobodyll want to take his classes any more . He'd be better off teaching bee keeping or something . He should have took up a trade instead .


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Let's just say evidence shows it has been the most significant factor.


what evidence?  


> I think it was Dr Mathew Goodwin who also described a key factor as ' those who have done well out of globalisation against those who have not '


and that's a reasonable interpretation, if somewhat glib.  I presume academics and political scientists are trying to establish the differences in the effect of globalisation between the cities (outside special case London) I mentioned and other similar cities, why there is a stark line along the Scottish/English border and why the rich SouthEast/Home Counties voted to leave.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor  has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.


Let the technocrats rule.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He's upset cos a Professor of European Law's standing will be diminished by the country not being in the EU. Just another self-serving, whinge-bag.


Jean Monnet is widely seen as the principal architect of the various incarnations of the current EU. This prof is holder of the Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's an EU funded chair. So, his wages (or a hefty part of them) come directly from the EU.

The Jean Monnet program btw is a massive tax-payer funded EU proganda initiative. It itself is part of a much wider tax-payer funded half billion pound pro-eu propaganda program.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Jean Monnet is widely seen as the arhcitect of the carious incarnations of the current EU. This prof is holder of the Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's an EU funded chair. So, his wages (or a hefty part of them) come directly from the EU.
> 
> The Jean Monnet program btw is a massive tax-payer funded EU proganda initiative. It itself is part of a much wider tax-payer funded half billion pound pro-eu propaganda program.





Well take a feather and knock me down with it.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 3, 2016)

Havent read the last few pages properly but I saw BAs question and the fact there were likely few/no TU banners isnt surprising as it was called by that well-known agent of the workers struggle Secret £30 a ticket Cinema. I think Left UNity might have been there though  Dont quote me on that...

But the stuff about LibDems and Lammy etc and calling for Corbyn to go etc is blatantly out of order and I would like to take back all previous comments in support for this march and the London yuppie bastards who went on it! 



The39thStep said:


> Let's just say evidence shows it has been the most significant factor. I think it was Dr Mathew Goodwin who also described a key factor as ' those who have done well out of globalisation against those who have not '


Nowhere near that simple because many of the wealthy in boroughs like Bromely, Croydon, Twickenahm, Barnes (are they boroughs?) voted leave.

Seriously though, one of the things that we can say about the referendum is that there is a kaleidoscopic cross section of views and reasons for voting, and it cant be broken down into a one sentence class analysis.... there are probably about a dozen voting 'tribes' I could think of, and class may well be a component on those subtribes, but it doesnt allow for any generalisations across the whole population.

There will no doubt have been people on that march who support Corbyn for example who would have foudn themselves wondering what it was they had in common with others around them....The Leave Remain 'camps' are weird coalitions....


seventh bullet said:


> It's amazing how intelligent and highly educated middle class people are incapable of telling the difference between Europe the continent with its collection of countries and an undemocratic, exploitative, racist, neoliberal superstate.


TBF to these geniuses I didnt hear that neoliberal argument made anywhere but here on urban and some left fringe literature, which most people will have been totally unaware of. There really wasnt a Lexit argument going on out there in the real world. The result and reaction has to be understood within the campaign as it happened... and theres a worthwhile job for those who want it to try and explain why Lexit could be a good thing to those who have yet to hear the case...I'm trying to do that with friends who havent heard it


----------



## magneze (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Yeah, what does he know? The University of Liverpool Law School Professor  has only has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK.


... and yet in the widely circulated video of his appraisal of what would happen in the event of Brexit he questioned whether the lack of a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland would change (ie: that a border might need to be erected) and how that would affect the peace process. This is despite the lack of a border being nothing to do with the EU at all. It's a separate arrangement, called the Common Travel Area.

Either he knew this and was misleading or he didn't and needs to read up a bit.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Let the technocrats rule.


I don't recall asking for him to 'rule,' but I guess I'll just give up asking for an intelligent and informed critique of his comments.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> it was called by that well-known agent of the workers struggle Secret £30 a ticket Cinema.



75 quid a ticket for their star wars thing . While constantly trying to flog you additional stuff during it . A history of not paying their actors too , opportunity to put the experience on your cv, although they say they don't do that any more .


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> what evidence?
> 
> and that's a reasonable interpretation, if somewhat glib.  I presume academics and political scientists are trying to establish the differences in the effect of globalisation between the cities (outside special case London) I mentioned and other similar cities, why there is a stark line along the Scottish/English border and why the rich SouthEast/Home Counties voted to leave.


one scottish factor to remember is they have always been closer to europe, not geographically obvs but in terms of auld allaince and so on. Whereas england has historically not been gr8 m8ts with france. Its one factor I'm considering as interesting anyway


ska invita said:


> There really wasnt a Lexit argument going on out there in the real world.


absolutel. The right/right argument was all we were allowed to hear


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Let the technocrats rule.



They do pretty much . Jean Claude Junckers previous gig was running Luxembourg . Basically just a glorified tax haven . Mario Dragi was a CEO at Goldman Sachs before heading up the European bank . that EU funded lecturer is just a mouthpiece for them .


----------



## magneze (Jul 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone confirm what i read elsewhere that there were no labour movement banners and that there was a demand that Corbyn resign made from the platform, and if so, who made it?


I saw no labour movement banners. I didn't hear anything from the platform.

It was billed as a march for Europe which potentially could have been something that brought everyone together. However, the mood seemed largely in favour of overturning the result. What was very interesting was that most people seemed to directly equate Europe and the EU, as if the result of the vote is that the UK will leave Europe. If there is a way of bringing more people around to the result of the referendum then challenging the assumption that EU=Europe is pretty key IMO.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

This is just mind boggling . Ian paisley jnr , who campaigned for Brexit, is advising his constituents to apply for Irish passports . And happily signing people's ID photos.

After Brexit, unionist Ian Paisley Jr is urging Northern Irish to apply for Republic of Ireland passports

His statement that the union is safe is far from convincing . Then again he's a fucking clown .


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

I was sent this link by a friend this morning.  No idea if it will be effective.


----------



## campanula (Jul 3, 2016)

Within the remain majority Cambridge bubble, I confess, as a slightly furtive leaver (shy Tory syndrome in reverse), that one salient factoid/soundbite resonated for me more than anything else - the threat to house prices. This slow catastrophe has been unfolding for 20 years or so in Cambridge - just about the time of the 'Science Park' development...where we have witnessed an obscene disparity between property owners (particularly those who bought before the 80s) and everyone else - students, renters and, most distressingly, the vile ongoing disenfranchisement of homeless people. Everywhere in Cambridge, we see pubs closing and 16 apartments being built on the site. Academics of my aquaintance, while proudly declaring their leftish credentials, have rushed into the BTL market while estate agents such as Savilles don't even bother advertising locally anymore, relying on the Chinese investment market to buy these shabby, badly built (I know of what I speak here) 'bijoux' apartments and the main scam, 'student accommodation'...while an entire generation of young people are absolutely locked out of an insanely overheated property con.
Not just an economic/class argument - having a home is at the heart of our sense of self, our identity, our security, our community...and this is currently denied - none of my son's peers have been able to leave the parental home...unless they are prepared to spend 2/3rds of their wages...and if not working within the tech/Microsoft/Astra Zenica bubble, they face even greater privations since most estate agents have become venal, moneygrubbing profit whores demanding several hundred pounds to simply process references...not to mention the thousands of £££ required upfront for deposits etc. More alarmingly, the power imbalance between renters and landlords has shifted and we are seeing the rise of the slumlord, short term lettings and a total refusal to honour the landlord's contract on safety etc.
Most of my working life was spent as a homeless support worker (have been there myself)  - I am still astonished at the absolute failure to address this issue (not to mention the various attempts at selling the last rump of council stock).


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> * including where both the editor and I live, at nearly 79% it's pretty unequivocal what people round here want.



I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically.  I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave.  There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market.

* perhaps it's more accurate to say an income divide, I'd guess lots of traditional skilled working class in London voted Remain, whilst those were unemployed, or in minimum wage work, voted out.  Of course there were other factors, golf club Ukippers for example, but its quite astonishing just how precisely income seems to have determined which way people voted, or at least that's what the regional voting patterns everywhere seem to show (except Scotland/NI where other issues are strongly at play)


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> what evidence?
> 
> and that's a reasonable interpretation, if somewhat glib.  I presume academics and political scientists are trying to establish the differences in the effect of globalisation between the cities (outside special case London) I mentioned and other similar cities, why there is a stark line along the Scottish/English border and why the rich SouthEast/Home Counties voted to leave.


I know you have been on holiday but I and others have posted quite a lot on demographics of voting and analysis of the class nature of the vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was sent this link by a friend this morning.  No idea if it will be effective.



No, it won't be.


----------



## JTG (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> In Greater Manchester only Stockport, Trafford voted with the city to remain. Stockport and Trafford are the wealthiest boroughs.


The ward by ward breakdown of Bristol shows the wealthier, more bohemian central areas voting heavily Remain with the outer estates and suburbs voting Leave. Swathes of south Bristol (heavily working class, traditionally the poorest sector of the city and solidly Labour since forever) were Leave. The ward I grew up in (Avonmouth and Lawrence Weston) was nearly 60-40 Leave iirc. Again, traditionally working class, very white, forever on the periphery of the city geographically, culturally and economically.

Predictably, I have seen plenty of disparaging comments from inner Bristol dwellers about Lawrence Weston, Fishponds,, Hartcliffe, Knowle West etc and how they voted.

South Gloucestershire, which contains much of the north and east Bristol suburbs which are also in part trad white working class (Filton, Kingswood, Staple Hill, Yate etc) voted to Leave. Not seen breakdowns of the vote so not sure how they split when compared to the rural parts of the authority.

It illustrates much of what I've been saying for some time about Bristol and the gaping divide between trendy, funky, liberal, gentrified inner Bristol and the outer areas full of Bristolians who feel pushed out of the picture economically and socially


----------



## Wilf (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Rather than throwing in an unfounded link with Blair, what is your criticism of his actual findings?


There were industrial amounts of shit and dishonesty launched by both sides in the referendum - it was, after all, led by politicians. That doesn't matter. The real issue is why did 17 million people feel so sickened by our political class that they ended up voting leave?


----------



## Wilf (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> What? His vote carries no more weight than yours or mine, but he certainly knows a damn sight more about the topic that you or I. What is your criticism of the points he raises?


That depends what you think 'the topic' is.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> one scottish factor to remember is they have always been closer to europe, not geographically obvs but in terms of auld allaince and so on. Whereas england has historically not been gr8 m8ts with france. Its one factor I'm considering as interesting anyway


that goes to support my contention that to pretend that class was the only factor involved is too simplistic.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Havent read the last few pages properly but I saw BAs question and the fact there were likely few/no TU banners isnt surprising as it was called by that well-known agent of the workers struggle Secret £30 a ticket Cinema. I think Left UNity might have been there though  Dont quote me on that...
> 
> But the stuff about LibDems and Lammy etc and calling for Corbyn to go etc is blatantly out of order and I would like to take back all previous comments in support for this march and the London yuppie bastards who went on it!
> 
> ...



Cant believe that Remainers are disputing where the working class votes went in the referendum . It's almost like being in denial . Class wasn't just a component of voting sub tribes in a kaleidoscope cross section of views. It stands out a mile and as does the fact that immigration was a key issue to many. There wouldn't have been the attempted coup in the Labour Party  immediately after the referendum if labour had won the vote to stay amongst the working class. as for the London suburbs you mentioned do you think they wouldn't have been Leave without the working class vote?


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> Class is a very important aspects of understanding what has happened and is happening, but it's by no means the only aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have also been giving this some thought and wonder how much gentrification contributed to the result here
.....right to buy,the homogenisation of private renting, rising property prices and untold luxury housing developments have changed this bit of Brixton massively in just the last couple of years.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically.  I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave.  There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market.
> 
> * perhaps it's more accurate to say an income divide, I'd guess lots of traditional *skilled working class in London voted Remain*, whilst those were unemployed, or in minimum wage work, voted out.  Of course there were other factors, golf club Ukippers for example, but its quite astonishing just how precisely income seems to have determined which way people voted, or at least that's what the regional voting patterns everywhere seem to show (except Scotland/NI where other issues are strongly at play)



In general that's not quite my anecdata experience but it's not too far off, but the bolded bit rings true.  I think housing is massively important too, as campanula said.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I know you have been on holiday but I and others have posted quite a lot on demographics of voting and analysis of the class nature of the vote.


I'm sorry if I'm repeating stuff that's already been said.  Can you point me to it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically.  I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave.  There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market.


You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Wilf said:


> There were industrial amounts of shit and dishonesty launched by both sides in the referendum - it was, after all, led by politicians. That doesn't matter. The real issue is why did 17 million people feel so sickened by our political class that they ended up voting leave?


That is indeed the crux of the issue.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was sent this link by a friend this morning.  No idea if it will be effective.


There's an action in Brixton too 

Oh, the link is borking. It's here www.facebook.com/events/863594877086305/


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

campanula said:


> - I am still astonished at the absolute failure to address this issue (not to mention the various attempts at selling the last rump of council stock).



This is really the fault of successive governments.  I hate what has been done to social housing. In an ideal world it would be a choice as to whether people wanted the lower cost of social housing or to buy somewhere. I know this will probably never happen but I would like to see all new builds in the UK to be 75% social housing, 25% affordable. Builders, suppliers, architects, furniture sellers, basically all the people that get paid and/or employ people still get paid. Social housing stock would increase and the only people to lose out would be the delepers shareholders.

I would also like laws and taxes to prevent places being left empty. Maybe any unoccupied oproperty charged 400% council tax and after one year it would be used as temporary accommodation.

I don't think leaving the EU will help with the housing crisis


----------



## Wilf (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> That is indeed the crux of the issue.






> “But really I’m more fearful that many of the people who voted Leave genuinely believing they were going to get the things they’d been falsely promised are only going to end up feeling more disenfranchised, more marginalised, more angry.



I think he gets this the wrong way round. People voted leave because they already feel marginalised and disenfranchised.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

Not sure how much of a factor the housing crisis was, tbh. The places with the most acute housing crises voted remain, generally, including many of those at the sharp end of the crisis, paying massive private rents. And those who own their homes outright, and so have no direct connection to the crisis at all, as a group voted around 60% Leave.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

editor said:


> There's an action in Brixton too
> 
> Oh, the link is borking. It's here www.facebook.com/events/863594877086305/




Thanks.

Good idea as not everyone will actually be at their workplace on a Monday in a 24/7/365 city.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Tbh all of this argument seems to me to ignore people on the ground and the effect they had campaigning. Eg one blogger from Kettering aligned with ukip says there they set a target of a 60% out vote and achieved 60.9%. So many of you make it seem the referendum happened in a vacuum without local campaigns.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Was It Boris Wot Won It?


----------



## magneze (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.


62% turnout though. Is there an analysis of who voted?


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Cant believe that Remainers are disputing where the working class votes went in the referendum . It's almost like being in denial . Class wasn't just a component of voting sub tribes in a kaleidoscope cross section of views. It stands out a mile and as does the fact that immigration was a key issue to many. There wouldn't have been the attempted coup in the Labour Party  immediately after the referendum if labour had won the vote to stay amongst the working class. as for the London suburbs you mentioned do you think they wouldn't have been Leave without the working class vote?


it stands out a mile until you consider the age and multi-ethnicity distribution.  Can you pinpoint a class difference between older and younger populations? There's an educational attainment difference but that's not the same as economic class, is it?  If you can't, then class cannot be the only explaining factor, and attempting to understand what's happened is more than just denial.

I agree that immigration was a key issue, and it's pretty plain that the most multi-ethnic areas voted Remain. The argument I'm hearing around here is that people outside the inner cities are afraid whereas those that live with the effects most intimately are not. I don't personally think that really holds up, but it's part of how inner London appears to see things differently from elsewhere.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

magneze said:


> 62% turnout though. Is there an analysis of who voted?


About the same as Sunderland, then, the leave vote announced early that surprised most. 

I'll be surprised if there isn't a negative correlation between likelihood to vote and income. However, those who did not vote also did not vote leave. The point about it not resonating in anything like the same way still stands I think.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not sure how much of a factor the housing crisis was, tbh. The places with the most acute housing crises voted remain, generally, including many of those at the sharp end of the crisis, paying massive private rents. And those who own their homes outright, and so have no direct connection to the crisis at all, as a group voted around 60% Leave.


can you source that 60% figure please.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> can you source that 60% figure please.


From the Ashcroft polling. There's a thread about it.

It's very clear that there are several very disparate strands within the Leave vote. One of them is a majority among older, financially secure, often Tory-voting people for Leave.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

...and how much of the vote was made up by this group.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> From the Ashcroft polling. There's a thread about it.
> 
> It's very clear that there are several very disparate strands within the Leave vote. One of them is a majority among older, financially secure, often Tory-voting people for Leave.


Yes. But once again you confuse correlation with causation.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.



London London London


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes. But once again you confuse correlation with causation.


I didn't put forward any particular hypothesis about the causation for this particular group. However, by one indicator of financial security - owning your home outright, which also of course means an older than average group - Leave won comfortably. 

As for butchersapron's question, if this report is correct, nearly one in three households are now owned outright.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I didn't put forward any particular hypothesis about the causation for this particular group. However, by one indicator of financial security - owning your home outright, which also of course means an older than average group - Leave won comfortably.
> 
> As for butchersapron's question, if this report is correct, nearly one in three households are now owned outright.


It's 33% of owner-occcupiers. Owner-occupiers are 64% of all households. See the latest housing survey.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> From the Ashcroft polling. There's a thread about it.
> 
> It's very clear that there are several very disparate strands within the Leave vote. One of them is a majority among older, financially secure, often Tory-voting people for Leave.


tvm I'll search for it.  

I have this pet theory that your post brought to mind, that the same selfish baby boomers who were once called Basildon Man continue to have a disproportionate influence: they demanded and got the destruction of social housing, and pocketed the windfalls, they demanded and got the breakup of the mutuals, they demanded and got lower taxes and worse social provision, they're the bedrock buytoletters and so on.  Now, having milked everything they can get they've demanded and got their children out of the EU, presumably because they think there's something in it for them, that they can put in their pockets.  

You're right: I'm bitter.  They're my generation and I've loathed what they stand for all my adult life.  One of the (non-geographic) reasons I'm skeptical about leaving is that they favour it: nothing they do is in the interests of anyone except themselves.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

So it's 60% of 72% of 33% of 64%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> So it's 60% of 72% of 33% of 64%.


9.2%


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> 9.2%


Ta. And that 60% of ashcrofts was in fact 55%.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh all of this argument seems to me to ignore people on the ground and the effect they had campaigning. Eg one blogger from Kettering aligned with ukip says there they set a target of a 60% out vote and achieved 60.9%. So many of you make it seem the referendum happened in a vacuum without local campaigns.


home of the grassroots Go campaigner phil 'the fred west' hollobone. (we know he's a cunt but lets repeat it. Fred Hollobone is a massive thundercunt)

kettering returned a 60% leave as well


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Ta. And that 60% of ashcrofts was in fact 55%.


8.4%


----------



## campanula (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is really the fault of successive governments.
> I don't think leaving the EU will help with the housing crisis



Yes, I realise that Anju...but I also admit to voting out of a real sense of desperation that the status quo cannot/must not remain as it is. Even, though I am slightly ashamed, a sneaky malice at the complacencies of the well-heeled. A once in a lifetime chance to precipitate some real change.Where was the EU when we were facing the firesale of the UK? What possible protections where being offered against PFI? The wholesale break-up of the NHS to 'any willing provider', the selling off of woodlands? The rampant monetising of education - where we have created a single tier of universities which offer ludicrous (business) courses to foreign students, while running the vocational sector (the one I benefited from) down to nothing because why do we need to invest in expensive local youth when we can strip the talents and skills of other places (nurses bursaries being just the latest mooted change). Globalisation - a project the EU holds at the heart of its manifesto. Perhaps you have no experience of skilled trades such as welding, joinery, engineering, mechanics, electricians...but I do...and the present pathetic excuse for education was leveraged by the ability to outsource skills from elsewhere. I even asked my local farmer how it would affect him and he told me he has never applied for EU funding, as a largely one man cow operation. I suspect, like many of us, this was a last ditch attempt to be heard. to use dissent and dissolution as a means of projecting an internal rage and misery out into a wider political realm...and the EU became just another barrier to overcome.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> 8.4%


Ta again.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> tvm I'll search for it.
> 
> I have this pet theory that your post brought to mind, that the same selfish baby boomers who were once called Basildon Man continue to have a disproportionate influence: they demanded and got the destruction of social housing, and pocketed the windfalls, they demanded and got the breakup of the mutuals, they demanded and got lower taxes and worse social provision, they're the bedrock buytoletters and so on.  Now, having milked everything they can get they've demanded and got their children out of the EU, presumably because they think there's something in it for them, that they can put in their pockets.
> 
> You're right: I'm bitter.  They're my generation and I've loathed what they stand for all my adult life.  One of the (non-geographic) reasons I'm skeptical about leaving is that they favour it: nothing they do is in the interests of anyone except themselves.



Well I'm in that demographic that are apparently the victims of the selfishness of 'baby boomers' and yet I don't feel any animosity towards the previous generation at all. Just as I don't feel any animosity towards migrant workers competing for the same jobs as me. Blaming other sections of society for the outcomes of an unfettered market is a mugs game. Don't attack each other; attack the institutions that create these competing groups in the first place.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

campanula said:


> Yes, I realise that Anju...but I also admit to voting out of a real sense of desperation that the status quo cannot/must not remain as it is. Even, though I am slightly ashamed, a sneaky malice at the complacencies of the well-heeled. A once in a lifetime chance to precipitate some real change.Where was the EU when we were facing the firesale of the UK? What possible protections where being offered against PFI? The wholesale break-up of the NHS to 'any willing provider', the selling off of woodlands? The rampant monetising of education - where we have created a single tier of universities which offer ludicrous (business) courses to foreign students, while running the vocational sector (the one I benefited from) down to nothing because why do we need to invest in expensive local youth when we can strip the talents and skills of other places (nurses bursaries being just the latest mooted change). Globalisation - a project the EU holds at the heart of its manifesto. Perhaps you have no experience of skilled trades such as welding, joinery, engineering, mechanics, electricians...but I do...and the present pathetic excuse for education was leveraged by the ability to outsource skills from elsewhere. I even asked my local farmer how it would affect him and he told me he has never applied for EU funding, as a largely one man cow operation. I suspect, like many of us, this was a last ditch attempt to be heard. to use dissent and dissolution as a means of projecting an internal rage and misery out into a wider political realm...and the EU became just another barrier to overcome.



V good post that. Sums up a lot of my feelings .


----------



## campanula (Jul 3, 2016)

What constitutes a 'housing crisis' LBJ? because just a decade or so ago, we had a 70% home ownership to 30% renting ratio...which rather suggests that in sheer numbers, the home-owners (who benefit from equity raises which often exceed annual salary) are still in the ascendant. Mere numbers does not really do justice to the huge inequalities arising from property owning classes...and the unearned incomes from doing so, against the utter impossibility of ordinary people now competing for security and safety of having a source of shelter. Those who do own a home, in places such as London and Cambridge have infinitely greater advantages (especially with artificially lowered interest) than that minority which are denied a place at the table.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> tvm I'll search for it.
> 
> I have this pet theory that your post brought to mind, that the same selfish baby boomers who were once called Basildon Man continue to have a disproportionate influence: they demanded and got the destruction of social housing, and pocketed the windfalls, they demanded and got the breakup of the mutuals, they demanded and got lower taxes and worse social provision, they're the bedrock buytoletters and so on.  Now, having milked everything they can get they've demanded and got their children out of the EU, presumably because they think there's something in it for them, that they can put in their pockets.
> 
> You're right: I'm bitter.  They're my generation and I've loathed what they stand for all my adult life.  One of the (non-geographic) reasons I'm skeptical about leaving is that they favour it: nothing they do is in the interests of anyone except themselves.


Wasn't the Basildon Man theory a key influence on New Labour ?


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't the Basildon Man theory a key influence on New Labour ?


Probably, NL won elections. BM are the aspirational embodiment of Thatcherism, now mostly retired I guess (and ~50% female, it's an old term).  I've just googled and there's virtually nothing there, which is odd, but from memory they've been around as a baleful influence since first identified for the 1982 election, but it could have been 1979.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

campanula said:


> What constitutes a 'housing crisis' LBJ? because just a decade or so ago, we had a 70% home ownership to 30% renting ratio...which rather suggests that in sheer numbers, the home-owners (who benefit from equity raises which often exceed annual salary) are still in the ascendant. Mere numbers does not really do justice to the huge inequalities arising from property owning classes...and the unearned incomes from doing so, against the utter impossibility of ordinary people now competing for security and safety of having a source of shelter. Those who do own a home, in places such as London and Cambridge have infinitely greater advantages (especially with artificially lowered interest) than that minority which are denied a place at the table.


Not to mention that many homeowners will have knocked together houses formerly divided into flats, thus dislocating several other households


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well I'm in that demographic that are apparently the victims of the selfishness of 'baby boomers' and yet I don't feel any animosity towards the previous generation at all. Just as I don't feel any animosity towards migrant workers competing for the same jobs as me. Blaming other sections of society for the outcomes of an unfettered market is a mugs game. Don't attack each other; attack the institutions that create these competing groups in the first place.


well yes, up to a point. Blaming groups of _others_ is never good.  but I am of the boomers, and while I may never have voted with Basildon Man I've scoffed the pies same as them.

What institution created BM?  They, like me, grew up in post-war settlement social democracy and (unlike me) have taken every opportunity to tear it to bits.  I'm not blaming them for their age, I'm blaming them for their politics.


----------



## captainmission (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was sent this link by a friend this morning.  No idea if it will be effective.




It initially started off as a call for a general strike by EU workers - thankfully they seem to have realised an illegal strike with 2 weeks notice across hundreds of work places is a bad idea. It's a positive goal if politically naive - basically trying to bring online clicktivism in to the real world. Wear a badge, take a picture post, it on social media.

A campaign that calls for protection of Eu workers' in the UK rights (which was a pledge made by the leave campaign, for what that's worth), against racism and protection of worker right generally in an exit deal are good causes to rally around. Question is how do you that effectively?


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

campanula said:


> Yes, I realise that Anju...but I also admit to voting out of a real sense of desperation that the status quo cannot/must not remain as it is.



I didn't intend to criticise your vote. What you wrote seemed heartfelt and compassionate.

My concern is that some of the most vulnerable people in our country will suffer. I have a couple of friends who work in early intervention with kids in London.  They are already worried about the effects of academies, as they are less keen to report absences, to protect their attendance figures. For some of these kids this is putting them in real danger. They are worried that their funding will be cut if the economy struggles. The kids they deal with are easy to overlook and people see it as not their problem as their kids will never need this type of help. Not an EU issue directly but if leaving causes major economic problems we will see more austerity, with our current government, and cuts will probably be aimed at the least publicly contentious areas of welfare and social services.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> Probably, NL won elections. BM are the aspirational embodiment of Thatcherism, now mostly retired I guess (and ~50% female, it's an old term).  I've just googled and there's virtually nothing there, which is odd, but from memory they've been around as a baleful influence since first identified for the 1982 election, but it could have been 1979.


I seem to recall that it was about aspiration but let's face it aspiration is part of working class culture anyway. We have always had to stand in our own two feet . For me and others it's also about not forgetting where you are from and where you heart and roots are. 
Anyway Basildon went Labour and there were two studies which pretty much concluded that Basildon man and loads of money types were a a short lived and overhyped phenomena .


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I seem to recall that it was about aspiration but let's face it aspiration is part of working class culture anyway. We have always had to stand in our own two feet . For me and others it's also about not forgetting where you are from and where you heart and roots are.
> Anyway Basildon went Labour and there were two studies which pretty much concluded that Basildon man and loads of money types were a a short lived and overhyped phenomena .


aspiration at the expense of others was not the w/c culture I grew up in.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I didn't intend to criticise your vote. What you wrote seemed heartfelt and compassionate.
> 
> My concern is that some of the most vulnerable people in our country will suffer. I have a couple of friends who work in early intervention with kids in London.  They are already worried about the effects of academies, as they are less keen to report absences, to protect their attendance figures. For some of these kids this is putting them in real danger. They are worried that their funding will be cut if the economy struggles. The kids they deal with are easy to overlook and people see it as not their problem as their kids will never need this type of help. Not an EU issue directly but if leaving causes major economic problems we will see more austerity, with our current government, and cuts will probably be aimed at the least publicly contentious areas of welfare and social services.


In other EU countries it's the EU who are determining the level if cuts. Portugal is about to be fined for not delivering on its deficit , you may or may not remember the case of Greece? Whether it's the EU or the national government surely the point is to resist or to build some resilience rather than thinking leave it remain is the solution ?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> aspiration at the expense of others was not the w/c culture I grew up in.


I wasn't saying it was


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

captainmission said:


> It initially started off as a call for a general strike by EU workers - thankfully they seem to have realised an illegal strike with 2 weeks notice across hundreds of work places is a bad idea. It's a positive goal if politically naive - basically trying to bring online clicktivism in to the real world. Wear a badge, take a picture post, it on social media.
> 
> A campaign that calls for protection of Eu workers' in the UK rights (which was a pledge made by the leave campaign, for what that's worth), against racism and protection of worker right generally in an exit deal are good causes to rally around. Question is how do you that effectively?



Apparently a letter has been signed by leading leave and remain campaigners calling for the government to make assurances that the rights of EU migrants will  be protected. Just looked for it but for some reason I can't find it. This action might help that but yes it could also be meaningless. It is at least positive that people are trying to do what they can.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> aspiration is part of working class culture anyway


'don't speak like that'
'dress yourself properly, you look like an oik'
'lovely to see you reading so much, I'll send you some dickens'
all nan quotes, and ma is the same. Telephone voice and talking to mates voice. Don't drop your aitches. They'll never take you seriously if you can't look and sound like them. In my recent reading, although I knew it from growing up, theres a sense that in order to be taken seriously you must actually have higher standards than the upper middle. 'I want better for you' is a phrase heard often enough by w/c children ennit.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was sent this link by a friend this morning.  No idea if it will be effective.




Of course it won't be effective. The pipe dreams of people who've worked out how to create Facebook events.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Anyway Basildon went Labour


fwiw I just looked it up.  Labour 1974, Conservative 1979-97, NL 1997-2010, Conservative since (with a boundary change).


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You may be partially right, but there is a lot more going on besides. Hackney voted nearly 80 per cent remain, that in an area with high indices of deprivation and 45 per cent of the population living in social housing. The numbers in inner London clearly indicate that there is something else going on - 'Leave' clearly did not resonate in anything like the same way among poorer voters.



I think Remain becoming seen as an anti-racist vote probably played well for it in London.  In fact the more I think of it the fact the public debate was so dominated by immigration, along with  Leave being so associated with Farage/UKIP, probably most benefitted Remain.  How many people said, even on here that they just couldn't stand to vote with Farage and Boris - that will have been a factor in London and other big urban centres. 

If the referendum had been fought on a more broad range of issues then I suspect Remain would have been even more fucked.  I wonder if they knew this, that they couldn't win from the right on immigration beyond a few dog whistles, but they might win by keeping the campaign focussed on immigration and presenting Leave as a racist vote.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> In other EU countries it's the EU who are determining the level if cuts. Portugal is about to be fined for not delivering on its deficit , you may or may not remember the case of Greece? Whether it's the EU or the national government surely the point is to resist or to build some resilience rather than thinking leave it remain is the solution ?



I still don't see that as being thw fault of the EU regarding our situation. 

Yes what happened / is happening in Greece is terrible. It is nice to see someone at least considering that the government and elites of Greece should take some responsibility.. I remember Greeks being the original oligarchs / billionaire super yacht owning world travelers.  The government were terribly corrupt. Business tax inspectors would demand money and just keep it or maybe hand over a portion to the government. Many people seem to only blame the EU. 

We have a very efficient tax system. Why not the same for business. Uber (google) takes its share direct from drivers payments. Our tax system should be doing the same.  Take more tax from business and highest earners. Make businesses pay decent wages to stop the need for in work benefits.  These are all things that the EU has no impact on but could improve lives here. 

I just can't blame the EU for our problems. If we had remained at least we had some influence and some of our money would go to helping poorer countries. Some of which saw us as a positive force within the EU.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it won't be effective. The pipe dreams of people who've worked out how to create Facebook events.



Same attitude of those who don't bother trying to do anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Same attitude of those who don't bother trying to do anything.


Yes something must be done


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I still don't see that as being thw fault of the EU regarding our situation.
> 
> Yes what happened / is happening in Greece is terrible. It is nice to see someone at least considering that the government and elites of Greece should take some responsibility.. I remember Greeks being the original oligarchs / billionaire super yacht owning world travelers.  The government were terribly corrupt. Business tax inspectors would demand money and just keep it or maybe hand over a portion to the government. Many people seem to only blame the EU.
> 
> ...


You haven't been following events in Greece over the past decade, have you


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Same attitude of those who don't bother trying to do anything.



Which doesn't include me.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You haven't been following events in Greece over the past decade, have you



Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece.  Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis.  The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done?  If you were advising them what would your advice have been.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which doesn't include me.



Cool, what have you done?


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes something must be done



I don't really know what those faces mean, apart from the normal smiley one.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece.  Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis.  The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done?  If you were advising them what would your advice have been.


Greece's bankruptcy is intimately linked to the wider European project and the Euro. Lies were told to enter the euro in the first place, lies that were deliberately ignored by everyone in order to get them in. From that point, they and other Mediterranean countries became prime objects for lenders from Germany and elsewhere. 

And if they weren't in the euro, there are many things they could do. The Iceland 'fuck you' option would be on the table, as would a devaluation of the currency, which would have happened anyway before peak crisis could be hit. Greece's failure is very much a failure of the EU in general and the single currency project in particular.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Cool, what have you done?



YouTube?


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Greece's bankruptcy is intimately linked to the wider European project and the Euro. Lies were told to enter the euro in the first place, lies that were deliberately ignored by everyone in order to get them in. From that point, they and other Mediterranean countries became prime objects for lenders from Germany and elsewhere.
> 
> And if they weren't in the euro, there are many things they could do. The Iceland 'fuck you' option would be on the table, as would a devaluation of the currency, which would have happened anyway before peak crisis could be hit. Greece's failure is very much a failure of the EU in general and the single currency project in particular.



Same with Ireland . Single currency meant no governmental control over interest rates, housing bubble went totally out of control. Fuelled by European lenders chucking truck loads of money at a system they knew could never repay, while awarding themselves massive bonuses. Fraud in other words .  And then the eu insisting the bond holders must be repaid no matter what . Socialism for the rich, paid for by the poor. Gouged to absolute fuck. It's obscene .


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

'we'll lend you money at intrest to pay of the loans you've had at interest. And cut those fucking social provisions, you can't afford them now cos we own you'

total beggar thy neighbour stuff. It has bad outcomes to do that. Eventually people won't fucking have it any longer


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Greece's bankruptcy is intimately linked to the wider European project and the Euro. Lies were told to enter the euro in the first place, lies that were deliberately ignored by everyone in order to get them in. From that point, they and other Mediterranean countries became prime objects for lenders from Germany and elsewhere.
> 
> And if they weren't in the euro, there are many things they could do. The Iceland 'fuck you' option would be on the table, as would a devaluation of the currency, which would have happened anyway before peak crisis could be hit. Greece's failure is very much a failure of the EU in general and the single currency project in particular.



There is a link with trying to reach targets to comply with targets for the euro but that is not the overriding cause.  Greece was doing well in the EU but allowed income inequality to rise for a long time before austerity was forced on them. I never borrowed heavily no matter how many letters offering credit cards and loans I received and a government has a responsibility to act responsibly when managing an economy. Incompetence, greed and corruption led to the weak position Greece found itself in when the world financial system crashed. Greece might be online searching for wonga right now if they had defaulted. Devaluation has negative consequences as well. There was no easy solution and even now people are not certain to what extent the books were cooked, so other EU nations may not have know exactly what they were choosing to ignore.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Same with Ireland . Single currency meant no governmental control over interest rates, housing bubble went totally out of control. Fuelled by European lenders chucking truck loads of money at a system they knew could never repay, while awarding themselves massive bonuses. Fraud in other words .  And then the eu insisting the bond holders must be repaid no matter what . Socialism for the rich, paid for by the poor. Gouged to absolute fuck. It's obscene .


Yep. It is obscene, and you're right that we should not forget that certain people have made themselves obscenely rich out of it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> There is a link with trying to reach targets to comply with targets for the euro but that is not the overriding cause.  Greece was doing well in the EU but allowed income inequality to rise for a long time before austerity was forced on them. I never borrowed heavily no matter how many letters offering credit cards and loans I received and a government has a responsibility to act responsibly when managing an economy. Incompetence, greed and corruption led to the weak position Greece found itself in when the world financial system crashed. Greece might be online searching for wonga right now if they had defaulted. Devaluation has negative consequences as well. There was no easy solution and even now people are not certain to what extent the books were cooked, so other EU nations may not have know exactly what they were choosing to ignore.


Devaluation does have negative consequences, yes. Specifically, it makes anything imported more expensive. But anything locally produced should remain more or less the same price relative to your wage. Everyone would feel a bit poorer, but that can be a far lesser evil than what has happened. 

If Greece had defaulted outside the euro, who knows what would have happened, but when Iceland refused to cover Icelandic banks' debts, despite, among other things, being treated like a terrorist state by the UK, that marked the start of a thus-far sustained economic recovery. Smaller country, different economy, etc, but that big 'fuck you' worked a treat.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

The whole thing could well be fucked anyway . There's a major chance now that French voters could be emboldened by these results and seek to follow suit. Any accession by Turkey would definitely cause Austria and a few others to call it a day. Sadly the right will be the mechanism in any of those cases . Conversely the growing resentment with remaining in will only further fuel the right too . The wider left need to seriously think about unhitching themselves from any attachment to this neo liberal nightmare. It's the death of them. Syriza definitely aren't an example of encouragement to anyone.  

Although I still believe the British political, financial and media classes will connive together to ensure the vote is either ignored or overturned .


----------



## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)

Guess who sent me this?



> *We demand a second referendum on the *_*terms*_* of a final deal. *Britain decided to leave the EU, but nobody knew what kind of Brexit was on the ballot paper. It’s only right that we’re all given a say.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Guess who sent me this?


Boris Johnson?


----------



## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Boris Johnson?



Fortunately he doesn't have my email address...


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Hitler ?


----------



## JimW (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Guess who sent me this?


Donald Tusk?


----------



## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

Someone called Tristram?


----------



## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Someone called Tristram?



It probably was , though it's not their signature at the bottom.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Devaluation does have negative consequences, yes. Specifically, it makes anything imported more expensive. But anything locally produced should remain more or less the same price relative to your wage. Everyone would feel a bit poorer, but that can be a far lesser evil than what has happened.
> 
> If Greece had defaulted outside the euro, who knows what would have happened, but when Iceland refused to cover Icelandic banks' debts, despite, among other things, being treated like a terrorist state by the UK, that marked the start of a thus-far sustained economic recovery. Smaller country, different economy, etc, but that big 'fuck you' worked a treat.



I do like the fuck off option. I have never had a credit card in my life, just a loan four times in 29 years. I will be building up my credit a few years before retirement and then disappear to a remote bit of Spain with no postal address.  Just think it is a bit too risky for a country that can't just leg it.

I can't really  comment on devaluation. I don't  know enough about the structure of their economy. I know it is mostly services and assume it is pretty tourism heavy. It all gets a bit complicated and uncharted as far as I know. 

Certainly agree with you that there were other viable options with potentially more palatable outcomes. 

I'm sure that a lot of debt could be wiped out worldwide with no effect on productive economic activity if there was a way to protect pensions and current accounts for business and personal accounts. Trouble is we might find out the whole world has been screwed over and there is no actual money.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Guess who sent me this?



L. Lohan?


----------



## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> L. Lohan?



Yeah. She's always emailing me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece.  Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis.  The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done?  If you were advising them what would your advice have been.


 so eviscerating the Greek economy the right thing to do - and I suppose the eu's imposition of a technocratic government in Italy, against any sort of democratic norm, a grand idea too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I don't really know what those faces mean, apart from the normal smiley one.


It means exasperation in this instance. Action for the sake of action is in this case at least superficial, of at best ephemeral importance, and would serve to undermine any better thought out initiatives.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Guess who sent me this?



London?


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Guess who sent me this?


Green Party?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Guess who sent me this?


Change.org or 38 degrees


----------



## chilango (Jul 3, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Green Party?



Yep. Caroline Lucas. Making a grab for the hand wringers before the LibDems mop them back up.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so eviscerating the Greek economy the right thing to do - and I suppose the eu's imposition of a technocratic government in Italy, against any sort of democratic norm, a grand idea too.



Trouble is that unless you can provide a viable alternative there is not point just moaning about things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Trouble is that unless you can provide a viable alternative there is not point just moaning about things.


Utter bollocks. Bilge. Do you think it was incumbent on people opposed to the poll tax to propose an alternative? Pisspoor.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> It means exasperation in this instance. Action for the sake of action is in this case at least superficial, of at best ephemeral importance, and would serve to undermine any better thought out initiatives.



I did point out that I had no idea if it would make any difference. Well thought out? Seems like just another way of supporting inaction. It also helps prevent anger from boiling over if people feel they are doing something so no matter how fleeting that may be it is helpful.


----------



## newbie (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Syriza definitely aren't an example of encouragement to anyone.
> .


the situation there has changed quite a lot.  Massive dissatisfaction with Syriza, huge feeling that the bailout caused damage and a sharp drop in the popularity of the Euro.  It's now only supported by 53%, which is almost twice as popular as New Democracy, who lead the polls.

Poll Shows New Democracy 11.5% Ahead of SYRIZA  | GreekReporter.com


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Utter bollocks. Bilge. Do you think it was incumbent on people opposed to the poll tax to propose an alternative? Pisspoor.



If rhey had a better idea it might have meant that the government could not have got away with imposing more or less the same tax but with students excluded.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Trouble is that unless you can provide a viable alternative there is not point just moaning about things.



To start with, German and French banks could have been left to write off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> To start with, German and French banks could have been left to right off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.


...and note, debts they hadn't contracted and had no say in the contracting of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> If rhey had a better idea it might have meant that the government could not have got away with imposing more or less the same tax but with students excluded.


Better ideas were suggested e.g. local income taxes: but a government which imposes a tax the only other country to have - Papua New Guinea - was phasing out unlikely to have top ideas.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I think Remain becoming seen as an anti-racist vote probably played well for it in London.  In fact the more I think of it the fact the public debate was so dominated by immigration, along with  Leave being so associated with Farage/UKIP, probably most benefitted Remain.  How many people said, even on here that they just couldn't stand to vote with Farage and Boris - that will have been a factor in London and other big urban centres.
> 
> If the referendum had been fought on a more broad range of issues then I suspect Remain would have been even more fucked.  I wonder if they knew this, that they couldn't win from the right on immigration beyond a few dog whistles, but they might win by keeping the campaign focussed on immigration and presenting Leave as a racist vote.



My friends all saw In vote as the pro immigration one and vote for Out as a vote for Farage. I had friends getting in touch with me about going to the March for Europe. These are average people like me who take an interest but are not full on activists. 

Immigration has been an issue for years since the Poles etc started coming. It was an issue that the establishment and media didn't take seriously. Imo it was an issue in the referendum as ordinary people were bringing it up. 

It's an issue that divides people. 

This weekend I have been telling my friends there is a principled left anti EU position. And asking them what they think. For them that doesn't have an appeal. They feel the EU referendum was pushed by some Tories and UKIP. It's a victory for them.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> To start with, German and French banks could have been left to write off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.



Indeed. They were financially speculating in persuit of profit. They made...even knowingly..a very poor gamble.  The gamble lost. But they insisted in collecting anyway . This is something Al Capone would have been too embarassed to do in a bookies . Lest it got gangsters a bad name .

The people who made those reckless..and indeed fraudulent...loans awarded themselves large  bonuses for making them . And then had the Greek people pay through the nose for their reckless speculation . Bail them out . Same with Ireland. 

The EU is a game completely rigged in these bastards favour. The way some of those hand wringers are carrying on you'd swear they owned a bank themselves  .


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> To start with, German and French banks could have been left to write off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.



I did suggest writing off debts worldwide. The only fair way to do it.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Better ideas were suggested e.g. local income taxes: but a government which imposes a tax the only other country to have - Papua New Guinea - was phasing out unlikely to have top ideas.



I'm not saying I love council tax. Maybe people should have rioted for local income tax as well as against the poll tax. Kind of proves my point that just complaining about stuff without stating what you want is not effective.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I did suggest writing off debts worldwide. The only fair way to do it.



You seem to be missing my main point: this isn't just about not writing the debt off. It is about the EU transferring liability for it to the Greek state. This is about the Greek people being forced to bail out the finance industry of its wealthier neighbours.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> You seem to be missing my main point: this isn't just about not writing the debt off. It is about the EU transferring liability for it to the Greek state. This is about the Greek people being forced to bail out the finance industry of its wealthier neighbours.




Beware Germans bearing gifts.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> This weekend I have been telling my friends there is a principled left anti EU position. And asking them what they think. For them that doesn't have an appeal. They feel the EU referendum was pushed by some Tories and UKIP. It's a victory for them.



Duped by Boris, duped by Osborne.  And still lost


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yep. Caroline Lucas. Making a grab for the hand wringers before the LibDems mop them back up.


New it.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> My friends all saw In vote as the pro immigration one and vote for Out as a vote for Farage. I had friends getting in touch with me about going to the March for Europe. These are average people like me who take an interest but are not full on activists.
> 
> Immigration has been an issue for years since the Poles etc started coming. It was an issue that the establishment and media didn't take seriously. Imo it was an issue in the referendum as ordinary people were bringing it up.
> 
> ...


The Tories don't really seem to be celebrating all that much.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Duped by Boris, duped by Osborne.  And still lost



Not duped. Nor do I think there are any winners. For the average person that is.

I have a friend who said some people she knew were swayed by promises of more money for NHS and controlling immigration if we got "our borders back". Which was duping people.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

emanymton said:


> The Tories don't really seem to be celebrating all that much.


No they aren't. Having a referendum will not heal any of the rifts in the Tory party.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I'm not saying I love council tax. Maybe people should have rioted for local income tax as well as against the poll tax. Kind of proves my point that just complaining about stuff without stating what you want is not effective.


It's a crap point and it's not proved


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2016)

Patteran said:


> They are of PR. Arts/Commerce. I know very little about them, other than the Secret Cinema '28 Days Later' event - a film inflated into a 21st century ghost train experience that garnered some press & social media traction earlier this year. Watch the film in a spooky environment while minimum wage workers lurch around the soft drinks concession in zombie costumes. Raaaaargh.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Geldof. Sir Bob Geldof, keynote speaker - made the comment to the press at the end - dunno if it was made from the platform, but it was made because of his place on the platform.


So all those folk were on a march/demo organised by an businessman and his company?


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> You seem to be missing my main point: this isn't just about not writing the debt off. It is about the EU transferring liability for it to the Greek state. This is about the Greek people being forced to bail out the finance industry of its wealthier neighbours.



I have no problem with holding the banks to account for making poor decisions based on greed and ignorance. I think their days are numbered operating as they do now. Swapping bits of paper and upping the value of those with each deal then patting themselves on the back and taking as much as they can for themselves. They fear tighter regulation more than financial loss so go down that route.

I would support any move to help Greece
Trouble is you are missing out the Greek government. Nobody chose Greece at random and said lets screw them over. Their government has to shoulder some responsibility. I don't think you can just blame the EU and banks did not impose the loans on Greece. I would favour just extending rhe loans at interest, negative if need be, rates that kept the total to be repaid the same as if it was repaid on time. I recently finished paying off a loan at £20 per month after I lost my job 15 years ago and got into a bit of trouble.  Couple this with increased EU funding for infrastructure, education and business.  

Not sure if that is feasible but to simply write off the loans of one country is risky.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So all those folk were on a march/demo organised by an businessman and his company?



Extras .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I have no problem with holding the banks to account for making poor decisions based on greed and ignorance. I think their days are numbered operating as they do now. Swapping bits of paper and upping the value of those with each deal then patting themselves on the back and taking as much as they can for themselves. They fear tighter regulation more than financial loss so go down that route.
> 
> I would support any move to help Greece
> Trouble is you are missing out the Greek government. Nobody chose Greece at random and said lets screw them over. Their government has to shoulder some responsibility. I don't think you can just blame the EU and banks did not impose the loans on Greece. I would favour just extending rhe loans at interest, negative if need be, rates that kept the total to be repaid the same as if it was repaid on time. I recently finished paying off a loan at £20 per month after I lost my job 15 years ago and got into a bit of trouble.  Couple this with increased EU funding for infrastructure, education and business.
> ...


Tell you what, why not look into the past ten years in Greece and on your return there could be some interesting and informed discussion.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Extras .


More like interns...extras usually get paid.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

campanula said:


> Globalisation - a project the EU holds at the heart of its manifesto. Perhaps you have no experience of skilled trades such as welding, joinery, engineering, mechanics, electricians...but I do...and the present pathetic excuse for education was leveraged by the ability to outsource skills from elsewhere. I even asked my local farmer how it would affect him and he told me he has never applied for EU funding, as a largely one man cow operation. I suspect, like many of us, this was a last ditch attempt to be heard. to use dissent and dissolution as a means of projecting an internal rage and misery out into a wider political realm...and the EU became just another barrier to overcome.



Leaving EU is not going to stop effects of globalisation. The Tories will still push through cuts and austerity.

For my Polish friends joining EU meant rejoining Europe after years of living under Russians and devastating experience of WW2. For all its faults they would not leave EU.

I would have wanted to stay in. After working with a lot of different Europeans in London(mainly from the East) I feel more European Union than before. I was for a reformed EU.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tell you what, why not look into the past ten years in Greece and on your return there could be some interesting and informed discussion.



I realise that you feel angry and see the EU as having sabotaged a government who largely shared your ideologies. Sadly for the Greek people that government displayed the same inflexible naive abrasive style of communication as yourself.  Then they shat themselves and agreed to a deal that has subjected their people to measures leading to poverty on a mass scale and shackled with crippling debt for years to come. Even the OECD wants further reforms and Greece has no choice because their government has no idea what to do despite all the big talk. 

I saw the video of Nazi idiots fighting with anti fascists on channel 4 today. 2 groups of extremists flailing about like kids in the playground, confused and angry because you all voted together. Pathetic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I realise that you feel angry and see the EU as having sabotaged a government who largely shared your ideologies. Sadly for the Greek people that government displayed the same inflexible naive abrasive style of communication as yourself.  Then they shat themselves and agreed to a deal that has subjected their people to measures leading to poverty on a mass scale and shackled with crippling debt for years to come. Even the OECD wants further reforms and Greece has no choice because their government has no idea what to do despite all the big talk.
> 
> I saw the video of Nazi idiots fighting with anti fascists on channel 4 today. 2 groups of extremists flailing about like kids in the playground, confused and angry because you all voted together. Pathetic.


I am an anarchist. There is no government in the world that largely shares my ideology.

I am sorry to find you come out with the auld anti-fascists are as bad as fascists bollocks. But it's no surprise.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Leaving EU is not going to stop effects of globalisation. The Tories will still push through cuts and austerity.
> 
> For my Polish friends joining EU meant rejoining Europe after years of living under Russians and devastating experience of WW2. For all its faults they would not leave EU.
> 
> I would have wanted to stay in. After working with a lot of different Europeans in London(mainly from the East) I feel more European Union than before. I was for a reformed EU.



The poles have voted in one of the most virulently anti immigrant,  eu sceptic govts in Europe who's stances make farage look like tony benn. A number of its neighbouring governments are on the same track. Austrias on a hairs breadth from a far right take over and will be voting leave immediately should turkey get accession. Marine Le Pen will probably be French president soon. Anti immigration parties and euro scepticism are a la mode right across the eu . From France to Finland . 
I know not of this enlightened eu of which you speak .


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I am an anarchist. There is no government in the world that largely shares my ideology.
> 
> I am sorry to find you come out with the auld anti-fascists are as bad as fascists bollocks. But it's no surprise.



What is the point of being an anarchist? 

Yes I believe that extreme views are generally harmful.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Even the OECD wants further reforms and Greece has no choice because their government has no idea what to do despite all the big talk.


Even the OECD! Well who could argue with them. 

Revolting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> What is the point of being an anarchist?
> 
> Yes I believe that extreme views are generally harmful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> What is the point of being an anarchist?


Among other things trying to get rid of the lunacy of a world in which money is more important than people and in which people's value is measured by their colour.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> What is the point of being an anarchist?
> 
> Yes I believe that extreme views are generally harmful.



Unless its extreme pro banker , anti worker neo liberalism. 

Mind you we do now live in an era were a " political moderate " is considered as someone who'd agree to bomb or invade an Arab country without much hesitation. As opposed to an anti war extremist . Double speak is totally real.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> What is the point of being an anarchist?


they hope for something better, some of them even worked out plans. Whats the point of being a non parliamentary socialist? things have to be better. They have to. Else its forever peons and forever masters. And these people we have in power now are beholden to traditions of great venality, shape entire philosophical arguments and ideologies to tell you why you are poor. I don't want to ruin the suprise here but: they say its our own fault. And stop having kids you selfish kid having bastards.etc

I'm going to quote this cos it awesome:


> His life has been a continuous adventure: targeted by five international orders, including theCIA; he prepared the kidnapping of the Nazi Klaus Barbie in Bolivia; collaborated in the flight of the leader of the Black Panthers; interceded in the kidnapping of Javier Rupérez; mediated in the case of Albert Boadella; and worked with the Movimiento Ibérico de Liberación and later with the Groupes d'action révolutionnaire internationalistes. He always defended his work, saying "we are bricklayers, painters, electricians - we do not need the state for anything"; "if unemployment and the marginalization created revolutionaries, the governments would already have ended unemployment and the marginalization".[_this quote needs a citation_] Urtubia continues to live in Paris and is now retired.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> The poles have voted in one of the most virulently anti immigrant,  eu sceptic govts in Europe who's stances make farage look like tony benn. A number of its neighbouring governments are on the same track. Austrias on a hairs breadth from a far right take over and will be voting leave immediately should turkey get accession. Marine Le Pen will probably be French president soon. Anti immigration parties and euro scepticism are a la mode right across the eu . From France to Finland .
> I know not of this enlightened eu of which you speak .



Do you know any Poles? The Poles I know abhor the present government in Poland.

Same goes for French friends re the far right in France.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Among other things trying to get rid of the lunacy of a world in which money is more important than people and in which people's value is measured by their colour.


 
Those are fantastic ambitions. I don't see it as possible as much as it would be a great way to live. 

I have no interest in money or shiny things but almost every one I know does. Would an off the grid semi self sufficient community not be the best way to go for an anarchist.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> they hope for something better, some of them even worked out plans. Whats the point of being a non parliamentary socialist? things have to be better. They have to. Else its forever peons and forever masters. And these people we have in power now are beholden to traditions of great venality, shape entire philosophical arguments and ideologies to tell you why you are poor. I don't want to ruin the suprise here but: they say its our own fault. And stop having kids you selfish kid having bastards.etc



Why not just ignore the government. Many people I know take no notice of what they are supposed to be or do. They live lives that are fun and free, obviously with some financial constraints.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Many people I know take no notice of what they are supposed to be or do


fish with no word for water. Some people don't get to ignore the government.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Do you know any Poles? The Poles I know abhor the present government in Poland.
> 
> Same goes for French friends re the far right in France.




Ive worked in a factory full of them for the last ten years  . My polish mates mostly support that party. A smaller minority  don't. which is reflective of the polish electorate, pretty much . The majority of poles who elected them .


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I realise that you feel angry and see the EU as having sabotaged a government who largely shared your ideologies. Sadly for the Greek people that government displayed the same inflexible naive abrasive style of communication as yourself.  Then they shat themselves and agreed to a deal that has subjected their people to measures leading to poverty on a mass scale and shackled with crippling debt for years to come. Even the OECD wants further reforms and Greece has no choice because their government has no idea what to do despite all the big talk.



Pickman's model is right on EU(with IMF and ECB) shafting the Greece. And I supported staying in Europe.

The ex Greece finance minister is worth reading on this and a reformed EU. Vanis Varoufakis.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 3, 2016)

While we're reforming the EU do you also favour the reformation of the World Bank and IMF?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 3, 2016)

The word reform in context of the EU is a remarkably uncontested word.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Ive worked in a factory full of them for the last ten years  . My polish mates mostly support that party. A smaller minority  don't. which is reflective of the polish electorate, pretty much . The majority of poles who elected them .



Well the ones I know don't. One of them does not want to go back whilst the Law and Justice party are in power. But she also sees the Out vote here as a low for the Europe.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Unless its extreme pro banker , anti worker neo liberalism.
> 
> Mind you we do now live in an era were a " political moderate " is considered as someone who'd agree to bomb or invade an Arab country without much hesitation. As opposed to an anti war extremist . Double speak is totally real.





DotCommunist said:


> they hope for something better, some of them even worked out plans. Whats the point of being a non parliamentary socialist? things have to be better. They have to. Else its forever peons and forever masters. And these people we have in power now are beholden to traditions of great venality, shape entire philosophical arguments and ideologies to tell you why you are poor. I don't want to ruin the suprise here but: they say its our own fault. And stop having kids you selfish kid having bastards.etc
> 
> I'm going to quote this cos it awesome:





DotCommunist said:


> fish with no word for water. Some people don't get to ignore the government.



I understand the attraction of no government but see no way for it to be achieved.

I also have to say that you all seem pretty determined to be correct about how things are and how they should be, as if you have some kind of objective understanding of the world and anyone who doesn't agree is obviously being manipulated or forced into their own world view.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I understand the attraction of no government but see no way for it to be achieved.
> 
> I also have to say that you all seem pretty determined to be correct about how things are and how they should be, as if you have some kind of objective understanding of the world and anyone who doesn't agree is obviously being manipulated or forced into their own world view.



My view of the world is, that from experience, they rule the world. And if they can't manipulate you into voting how they want they'll just ignore your vote. A process I believe we may well see played out now in Britain.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> While we're reforming the EU do you also favour the reformation of the World Bank and IMF?


why stop there, we could reform the UN and maybe next time there is a massacre so large it clogs the rivers with dead the people armed and mandated to do so would operate as they are supposed to? then we can get some other shit going?

A new dawns a-comin'. Not.
was reading a bit of Machete Season earlier and still have my rage goggles on m8


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Pickman's model is right on EU(with IMF and ECB) shafting the Greece. And I supported staying in Europe.
> 
> The ex Greece finance minister is worth reading on this and a reformed EU. Vanis Varoufakis.



They were also shafted by their government.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> They were also shafted by their government.


Yes, so you've said. Perhaps you could find out something new you could also repeat parrot fashion


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The word reform in context of the EU is a remarkably uncontested word.



I have been reading Vanis Varoufakis. He is highly critical of how EU works. But argues for staying and pushing for a radical Europe.


----------



## sim667 (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I am an anarchist. There is no government in the world that largely shares my ideology.
> 
> I am sorry to find you come out with the auld anti-fascists are as bad as fascists bollocks. But it's no surprise.


This is something I've seen repeated over and over again. There was someone wittering on about fascist Trotskyite anarchists the other day.... People have some very weird distortions of what they think these individual things actually mean.

Edit. I'm referring to the the antifascist fascists comment


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, so you've said. Perhaps you could find out something new you could also repeat parrot fashion



I was going for scratched record.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> They were also shafted by their government.



As much as I support staying in EU the way Greece was treated is a case that outers can use. The Greeks elected a left government and the IMF, EU, ECB used there power to destroy the will of the people.

It's a better case to use than the immigration one that was use in UK a lot.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

cba


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

sim667 said:


> This is something I've seen repeated over and over again. There was someone wittering on about fascist Trotskyite anarchists the other day.... People have some very weird distortions of what they think these individual things actually mean.
> 
> Edit. I'm referring to the the antifascist fascists comment



I was just expressing a view that extreme views are not really helpful. I see them as just reducing the chance of people coming to any consensus.


----------



## sim667 (Jul 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> thats not undeliberate imo. Maybe I'm paranoid but the obfuscation of basic political terminology really does seem a bit sinister to me. They. You know They. They don't want anyone to clock the terminology and challenge them. Engineering a reality through control of language, accepted discourse and education. Doesn't work though cos people aren't bots and won't buy it.
> 
> should I put on my foil hat yet



Now the 32.8 million EU regulation on tinfoil conspiracy no longer applies, you should at least need less tinfoil.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 3, 2016)

sim667 said:


> Now the 32.8 million EU regulation on tinfoil conspiracy no longer applies, you should at least need less tinfoil.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Maybe we will have to start using cling film instead. What a ballache


----------



## sim667 (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was just expressing a view that extreme views are not really helpful. I see them as just reducing the chance of people coming to any consensus.



Some extreme views are just as useless as moderate views, like wise some extreme views and moderate views aren't useless. There's no consensus that you can claim on which is which.


Edit: fucking tapatalk signature bollocks removed.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically.  I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave.  There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market. <snip>


Not entirely - long term dirt poor, thoroughly aware of the benefits situation, and still voted remain.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> thats not undeliberate imo. Maybe I'm paranoid but the obfuscation of basic political terminology really does seem a bit sinister to me. They. You know They. They don't want anyone to clock the terminology and challenge them. Engineering a reality through control of language, accepted discourse and education. Doesn't work though cos people aren't bots and won't buy it.
> 
> should I put on my foil hat yet



I think it is more a case of people just not knowing what the labels mean. I am not trying to insult anyone but I thought anarchists were more or less extinct. I don't know exactly what the beliefs are. I don't know what the different left factions differ on. Not asking for an explanation but will read up when I can.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

sim667 said:


> Some extreme views are just as useless as moderate views, like wise some extreme views and moderate views aren't useless. There's no consensus that you can claim on which is which
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



That potentially makes all useless and then we are stuck


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Well the ones I know don't. One of them does not want to go back whilst the Law and Justice party are in power. But she also sees the Out vote here as a low for the Europe.



My point is that aliens did not elect these far right, right populist, anti immigration nationalist parties right across Europe. Poles did. Hungarians did . Dutch did . French and Finns, Slovaks, Austrians , Danes ....the Europeans did . Europeans absolutely no different from the ones who come to work here . Farage is a feckin teddy bear compared to these politicians and parties who are the new norm in Europe outside some cosmopolitan capitals. Mainstream now in many places in Europe . 

To see all these liberals wailing and crying about how un European and racist this decision is makes me suspect they know very little about Europe. Asides from whatever hipster bubble they've hung out in.  It's extremely mild compared to what goes on in the rest of Europe. And the eu is certainly not making it any better . It's notable that in Dublin some months back there was an unsuccessful attempt to hold a pegida rally. The ONLY people stupid enough to turn up for it were east European. 


All this " national shame " bollocks is an absolute joke. If there was that much shame and anger about poverty , disenfranchisement and unemployment things might be a lot better. But no...it's " these people..those people...people with no stake here ..taking from us " . The snooty bastards . 
If anyone spoke that way about migrants they'd be called a bigot. And rightly so. But it's a form of bigotry nonetheless. I see absolutely nothing enlightened tolerant or progressive about this remain thing at all .


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> As much as I support staying in EU the way Greece was treated is a case that outers can use. The Greeks elected a left government and the IMF, EU, ECB used there power to destroy the will of the people.
> 
> It's a better case to use than the immigration one that was use in UK a lot.



They didn't destroy the will of the people. The government capitulated. I. Thought the people were prepared to go through with leaving, abandoning the euro. Whatever it took.


----------



## sim667 (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> That potentially makes all useless and then we are stuck



Sounds about right.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have been reading Vanis Varoufakis. He is highly critical of how EU works. But argues for staying and pushing for a radical Europe.



I like him, it's a reasoned argument, but I also think he missed the boat . I dont think it's possible with this set up. It's rotten to the core , undemocratic and highly resistant to change . Run by gangsters. It needs to fall . Maybe then something half ways decent can be constructed to replace it . If things carry on the way they're going leftism is finished and all there will be is competition between gangsters and fascists .


----------



## Greebo (Jul 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Do you know any Poles? The Poles I know abhor the present government in Poland.
> 
> Same goes for French friends re the far right in France.


And that explains (partly) why they've come to live in the UK.  My devoutly Catholic Polish sister in law can't stomach the way that RC values (ie the anti abortion law) are being forced on everyone in her homeland by the current increasingly right wing government there.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

sim667 said:


> Sounds about right.



So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left. I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.


----------



## yield (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left.


There are plenty of new and old ideas that haven't been tried. But there's not the will to try them.

"Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them."



Anju said:


> I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.


70 years and divide it by the growth rate. That's how long it takes to double.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 4, 2016)

Marching angrily on the streets demanding to be ruled by this luxembourgian bozo , who's main qualification seems to be a background in helping millionaires hide their loot from the taxman .


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The use of the word liberal as an insult by some on the left was going on long before the American right wing began using it. They are also two different meanings of that word, or at least there are different connotations when a leftwinger employs the term.
> 
> 
> 
> Eta: which sounds remarkably similar to some the arguments for the EU as a protector of workers' rights. 'Thank God the EU didn't beat me'



Phil Ochs Love me I'm a liberal:

İ cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)




----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

JTG said:


> The ward by ward breakdown of Bristol shows the wealthier, more bohemian central areas voting heavily Remain with the outer estates and suburbs voting Leave. Swathes of south Bristol (heavily working class, traditionally the poorest sector of the city and solidly Labour since forever) were Leave. The ward I grew up in (Avonmouth and Lawrence Weston) was nearly 60-40 Leave iirc. Again, traditionally working class, very white, forever on the periphery of the city geographically, culturally and economically.
> 
> Predictably, I have seen plenty of disparaging comments from inner Bristol dwellers about Lawrence Weston, Fishponds,, Hartcliffe, Knowle West etc and how they voted.
> 
> ...



Happening in many large Cities.


----------



## sim667 (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left. I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.



According to you out of the box "or extremist thinking" is "useless"..... So well done for repressing the ideas of the future, whilst simultaneously complaining that there are no good ideas.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> Phil Ochs Love me I'm a liberal:
> 
> İ cried when they shot Medgar Evers
> Tears ran down my spine
> ...


Jello biafra / mojo nixon version imo better


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left. I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.


You clearly haven't been paying attention to the middle east, the DRC, Iraq, Syria, parts of India, Afghanistan etc etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> I think it is more a case of people just not knowing what the labels mean. I am not trying to insult anyone but I thought anarchists were more or less extinct. I don't know exactly what the beliefs are. I don't know what the different left factions differ on. Not asking for an explanation but will read up when I can.


Are you sure you've been a member here since 2002, you've not simply nicked anju's login and started posting?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2016)

Sherman Tank said:


> No I'm not my good fellow, it is a well known fact that democracy in the UK is based around electing representatives who then work with paid experts to develop the policies that they think will benefit the country, if we don't like what they develop we chuck them out at the next election. I don't know why EU membership was considered to be a different matter.



Your "well-known fact" about policy formulation is about 30 years out of date, Shermy baby. "Independent" think-tanks are so much a part of the process that experts rarely get a look in, unless they're saying something that the political parties want to hear - for instance Giddens and his "Third Way". Ideas are rarely drawn from academe or business nowadays, and where they are, they're mediated in such a way as to be amenable to existing government aims, rather than promoting change.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

See the reaction when one woman holds a LEAVE placard in Whitehall as the bremain protest comes by. Go to minute 1.



Quote _"You are destroying our country put that banner down"._

And, when asked to say why we should stay _"We are a unity, we should be proud, don't talk about trade or anything".
_


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Marching angrily on the streets demanding to be ruled by this luxembourgian bozo , who's main qualification seems to be a background in helping millionaires hide their loot from the taxman .



He may not be the hero Gotham wants, but he's the hero Gotham needs.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have been reading Vanis Varoufakis. He is highly critical of how EU works. But argues for staying and pushing for a radical Europe.



I think this is a pretty decent critique of Varoufakis approach . Which he himself admits is " utopian " . Among other things it points out that no matter what he tries he's shafted because he refuses to consider the pull out option . That supra national collectivity is hamstrung and hampered by a raft of hurdles etc . Definitely worth reading .

Why Varoufakis’ DiEM2025 is fighting the wrong fight


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> My point is that aliens did not elect these far right, right populist, anti immigration nationalist parties right across Europe. Poles did. Hungarians did . Dutch did . French and Finns, Slovaks, Austrians , Danes ....the Europeans did . Europeans absolutely no different from the ones who come to work here . Farage is a feckin teddy bear compared to these politicians and parties who are the new norm in Europe outside some cosmopolitan capitals. Mainstream now in many places in Europe .
> 
> To see all these liberals wailing and crying about how un European and racist this decision is makes me suspect they know very little about Europe. Asides from whatever hipster bubble they've hung out in.  It's extremely mild compared to what goes on in the rest of Europe. And the eu is certainly not making it any better . It's notable that in Dublin some months back there was an unsuccessful attempt to hold a pegida rally. The ONLY people stupid enough to turn up for it were east European.
> 
> ...


I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers. 

It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.


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## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.
> 
> It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.


Remainers were the main people who put the focus on immigration by insisting that leave voters were racists hiding behind a suggestion that capitalist management of immigration was benefiting certain people and harming others.. In a city of immigration that will obv pay off. It's caused lot of shit outside london.


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.
> 
> It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.


So the nature of the EU itself wasn't an issue?  or how it has forced  austerity in workers in other countries and sanctioned those governments who failed or resisted in reducing the deficit wasn't an issue?


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.
> 
> It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.



Sure, and I wouldn't say that for a minute . When I'm referring to liberals etc I'm in the main referring to these chattering pundits and the like  . But at the same time we can't really be expected to accept that every second person in Britain is an ignorant racist . Any more than we can accept everyone who voted remain is a tofu munching fixy upper riding cup cake monger .
I voted out without even once bothering to listen to scum like gove or Johnson. I'm sure I'm far from the only one .

 The late Bob Crow and Tony Benn had been firmly anti eu for many years. A lot of people listened to them . There were all sorts of reasons why people voted out . And even being anti lassez faire immigration doesn't in itself equate to racism .
it's just seeing this accusation chucked around so freely strikes me as not just annoying , often classist and ignorant, but dangerous in a number of ways . Firstly it strikes me as creating an atmosphere were a democratic vote can be gradually delegitimised by our betters and their opinion formers . Secondly it could well create an atmosphere were actual racists get it into their heads half of Britain actually support racist aggression . And that's not good at all .


----------



## Sherman Tank (Jul 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your "well-known fact" about policy formulation is about 30 years out of date, Shermy baby. "Independent" think-tanks are so much a part of the process that experts rarely get a look in, unless they're saying something that the political parties want to hear - for instance Giddens and his "Third Way". Ideas are rarely drawn from academe or business nowadays, and where they are, they're mediated in such a way as to be amenable to existing government aims, rather than promoting change.



I think you will find that think tanks tend to either directly employ specialists in different areas or will engage with experts through advisory or focus groups.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2016)

Sherman Tank said:


> I think you will find that think tanks tend to either directly employ specialists in different areas or will engage with experts through advisory or focus groups.



It's not on the same basis as you originally implied, though. They're hirelings, with all the issues that implies.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2016)

I keep seeing this thread title as: 'Reindeers: When are you taking to the streets?"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Maggie Thatcher was bad...
> 
> Go on, like it, you know you want to...



"Maggie Thatcher was bad..."???

Bad, you mimsy whining liberal fuckwad???

Bad cess unto the 7th generation of your family line, you complete milksop!!!


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Remainers were the main people who put the focus on immigration by insisting that leave voters were racists hiding behind a suggestion that capitalist management of immigration was benefiting certain people and harming others.. In a city of immigration that will obv pay off. It's caused lot of shit outside london.



I don't think it was remainers-if you mean by that those leading the in campaign - making it an issue. There has been grumbling about East European immigration since they joined EU and came here . it's an issue was always going to come up. 

Even in London it's an issue. I was talking to a Postman a couple of months ago in London. He blamed the Poles for under mining his job. Not the first time I have heard this kind of thing. Its not racism in just hating some one. But it's still upsetting to my Polish friends. The referendum brought it out into the open. Its more fear that free movement of people in EU provides a cheap labour force for business.The post man was an Asian Londoner.

When I was first in London in 80s there was a lot of outright racism in some areas. That's gone now. Young Londoners I find are very tolerant. London imo is unique.

I think it's the Out campaign that used immigration to get people to vote out.


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## emanymton (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Young Londoners I find are very tolerant. London imo is unique.


What exactly do you mean by this? I'm assuming you don't mean to say what it sounds like you're saying?


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## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> So the nature of the EU itself wasn't an issue?  or how it has forced  austerity in workers in other countries and sanctioned those governments who failed or resisted in reducing the deficit wasn't an issue?



I have been doing a straw I poll of people I meet most days. Telling them there's a left out position. They feel here a vote out is supporting the right. 

I had an interesting chat with the Italian who works in the coffee bar I use. They give me free coffee. Told him about this thread. He said in Italy they have problems with the right like here. That the out vote here bolsters the populist right in Europe. For all its faults he does not want to leave EU. And is sad that this country has gone down that path. He is also afraid that this could be first step to break up of EU. Which will only benefit the populist right. For Italian with there recent history that is an issue.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

emanymton said:


> What exactly do you mean by this? I'm assuming you don't mean to say what it sounds like you're saying?



I meet a lot of people who come here from abroad to stay here a while and learn English. They often remark on how multicultural London is compared to where they come from. London is an international city with a large and diverse population. I am looking at it as an international city. Not comparing it with rest of country. Sorry London is my adopted home and I am rather biased.


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 4, 2016)

Immigration was used by both sides in my opinion; lies from Leave, conflicting statements from Leave (changing type of immigration etc) and discrediting Leave from Remain. According to the Ashcroft poll, had we had the referendum in January before the campaigning started, the outcome would have been about the same (very slightly higher Leave but both Leave and Remain have similar proportions of always known / known for a year). So, the result of all that focus from both sides as far as I see it was the effect of increasing discontent and division all round, while resolving nothing.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I meet a lot of people who come here from abroad to stay here a while and learn English. They often remark on how multicultural London is compared to where they come from. London is an international city with a large and ve


To be continued


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm concerned about why Gramsci got cut off mid-word, do we need to send help?


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## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> I'm concerned about why Gramsci got cut off mid-word, do we need to send help?



I could do with smaller fingers. My smartphone doesn't like my big fingers and cuts me off.


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## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> To be continued



Sorted now. You follow threads quickly. I'm impressed.


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I could do with smaller fingers. My smartphone doesn't like my big fingers and cuts me off.


I'm so glad, I was fretting that it would turn out I was nearest and I've already taken my boots off.


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have been doing a straw I poll of people I meet most days. Telling them there's a left out position. They feel here a vote out is supporting the right.
> 
> I had an interesting chat with the Italian who works in the coffee bar I use. They give me free coffee. Told him about this thread. He said in Italy they have problems with the right like here. That the out vote here bolsters the populist right in Europe. For all its faults he does not want to leave EU. And is sad that this country has gone down that path. He is also afraid that this could be first step to break up of EU. Which will only benefit the populist right. For Italian with there recent history that is an issue.



As far as I know the Italian 5 star movement couldn't possibly be described as far right but takes a Leave position .we all know about the Greek left and their position.  Here in Portugal the communist Party is calling for leave . There was an interesting article which was critical of those who would describe them selves as left remain supporters in the Uk for only seeing the EU through a UK perspective . I will see if I can find it.


----------



## JimW (Jul 4, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> As far as I know the Italian 5 star movement couldn't possibly be described as far right but takes a Leave position .we all know about the Greek left and their position.  Here in Portugal the communist Party is calling for leave . There was an interesting article which was critical of those who would describe them selves as left remain supporters in the Uk for only seeing the EU through a UK perspective . I will see if I can find it.


Remember this Wu Ming post calling Beppe Grillo's lot a right-wing cult Grillismo: Yet another right-wing cult coming from Italy | Wu Ming  Foundation Bit above my pay grade


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> As far as I know the Italian 5 star movement couldn't possibly be described as far right but takes a Leave position .we all know about the Greek left and their position.  Here in Portugal the communist Party is calling for leave . There was an interesting article which was critical of those who would describe them selves as left remain supporters in the Uk for only seeing the EU through a UK perspective . I will see if I can find it.



In this country I would say what’s happening in rest of Europe is not reported much or that well in mainstream media. Here lots of news about USA but not say Portugal or Poland. Nor at school did I learn much about Europe. Except this countries efforts in WW2. It was when the Poles and other East Europeans came here I realised how little I knew of Europe and started to read some history and borrow films off them. 

So this leads to seeing Europe through UK perspective in general. If at all.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> In this country I would say what’s happening in rest of Europe is not reported much or that well in mainstream media. Here lots of news about USA but not say Portugal or Poland. Nor at school did I learn much about Europe. Except this countries efforts in WW2. It was when the Poles and other East Europeans came here I realised how little I knew of Europe and started to read some history and borrow films off them.
> 
> So this leads to seeing Europe through UK perspective in general. If at all.



I think that if we had better coverage of current affairs in Europe the population would be more critical of the EU, not less. You will notice that most of the posters on this forum that took a close interest in the Troika's assault on Greece are not exactly Europhiles.


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## phildwyer (Jul 5, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have been doing a straw I poll of people I meet most days. Telling them there's a left out position. They feel here a vote out is supporting the right.



Yes.  The oppressive function of the Left/Right dichotomy is being clearly revealed by this debate. 

I'd say the majority of Remainers I've spoken to have arrived at their position because they believe it to be "Left-wing," and that the Leavers are somehow "Right-wing."  But none of them can explain what that means in this context, probably because it doesn't mean anything.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2016)

I mean people like you. The nice remainers.


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## paolo (Jul 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that if we had better coverage of current affairs in Europe the population would be more critical of the EU, not less. You will notice that most of the posters on this forum that took a close interest in the Troika's assault on Greece are not exactly Europhiles.



I think the opposite. If there'd been more honest coverage, maybe people would have voted differently.

"We" (the public, media, politicians) have never really 'front-paged' any EU wins. Simple small stuff like the abolition of roaming charges has been sideline news. Nobody has noticed, nobody cares. On the flip side, "straight bananas" is a dog whistle, headline material. People still believe that stuff. It was all over (most of) the red-tops. And the mail. And the Telegraph. So many publications, it had to be true?


----------



## newbie (Jul 5, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Young Londoners I find are very tolerant. London imo is unique.





emanymton said:


> What exactly do you mean by this? I'm assuming you don't mean to say what it sounds like you're saying?


I don't know about unique but I do think that inner city London is different from the suburbs and countryside.  And very tolerant. Is that a slur on anyone else? i don't know, it's up others to think about how tolerance works where they live. It's a description from an innercity London perspective.

There's a lot of churn in inner London, a lot. The longterm demographics of Brixton is that people who grow up elsewhere move here in their 20s, meet, have sprogs, stay until secondary school looms and then head off out of the city, to be replaced by their younger brothers and sisters.  There's a large international element to the population, with incoming individuals who headed for the big city having coalesced into pockets of heritage based community. Of people born locally to stable, multi-generation Londoners, increasing numbers have been gentrified away from any realistic chance of living where they grew up, so when they leave their parents home they move away to live somewhere more affordable.

So I think it's fair to say that a substantially large proportion of inner London voters have actively chosen to live in a multi-ethic and multi-subculture environment, and that that proportion has increased substantially in the last few years. Chosen to live tolerantly, if you like. Perhaps that is reproduced to greater or lesser extent in other Remain city areas?

That is rather different from people who have chosen to live in more traditional places, where the cultural experience of international neighbours is much more limited and much more recent, and who (caricaturing) have seen Brixton on the telly and don't want what they see. There's no reason why they should and they don't. Continuing to caricature, we think they'd love it, they think they'd hate it and we worry that many of the reasons for rejecting what we value appear to be bound up with tolerance.  Little of the Leave campaign, or the interviews with leavers, tried to dispel that worry.  The word xenophobia has been on many local lips for weeks and it's not liked.

The attitude to tolerance coming from inner London is pretty unequivocal, I think.  Attitudes from leaver areas are much more mixed.

Innercity Remainers were a minority, the ball is not in our court.  If it was the word *deportation* would not be in todays news.

How has it come to this?  Is an agenda like that really what leaver areas want?  We don't know.


What does tolerance mean to the communities you live in?




"we", "they", yeh, I know.  I've struggled for days to figure out how to express the innercity perspective I'm picking up from those around me.  It's what I think is going on, and why, I'm not trying to speak for anyone else.


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 5, 2016)

I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating. 

Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.


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## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> I don't know about unique but I do think that inner city London is different from the suburbs and countryside.  And very tolerant. Is that a slur on anyone else? i don't know, it's up others to think about how tolerance works where they live. It's a description from an innercity London perspective.



What was that word I learnt the other day?


----------



## newbie (Jul 5, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating.
> 
> Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.



Yes, when put that way I understand it too.  But that's not the only way leavers have expressed themselves.

As well as deportation another phrase bubbling around in the news at the moment is hate crime.
Open letter from Chief Constable Andy Marsh & PCC Sue Mountstevens - Avon and Somerset Constabulary


Your first paragraph is spot on, that's exactly the sense of tolerance I meant. We voted differently but we share that, I think, along with the experience of repetition of _but we like it like this_.  because this is where we live.  I'd really like other people to tell us how tolerant their leaver areas feel.


----------



## newbie (Jul 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What was that word I learnt the other day?


dunno, and I can't think of a particularly witty quip.  

How do you perceive the mood in your neck of the woods?  Are there grounds for our worries?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2016)

take a walk down the kettering road (thats not actually in kettering, its in northampton) and you will find as diverse a crowd as a walk through brixton. Not a bad thing imo. London exceptionalism seems to view the outer limits as a monoculture. Never was, never has been. And shock horror, by and large we all get on with life together. Just the way it is. Pretty sure this goes for most places tbh.

as for my current town, I've spoke to nafia (remembers tito) and she says she's worried about what it all means for friends, she has permanent reisdence. Oh and Viz, brit indian, recons its a flash in the pan and business will continue as normal. Spoke to kelvin who said he didn't give a fuck and its pissing him off that everyones banging on about shit when he just wants to watch tv with his boy.

I'd expect to have seen more triumphalism from people, vile kettering (hated by lindsey lohan) was enjoying a day in the news. No one ever mentions us normally. There's a depressing amount of ED voters last time I checked but its not turned into nuremburg rallies outside the arts building (open by appointment)


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> take a walk down the kettering road (thats not actually in kettering, its in northampton) and you will find as diverse a crowd as a walk through brixton. Not a bad thing imo. London exceptionalism seems to view the outer limits as a monoculture. Never was, never has been. And shock horror, by and large we all get on with life together. Just the way it is. Pretty sure this goes for most places tbh.


Of course.  In the sense that I've found a short stretch on streetview that (apart from the curious lack of people) looks like an innercity area like those I've seen in sizeable places all over the country.  Makes me curious about the wider local attitude to that area, tolerant or critical, and whether people who live further along, in what looks like more typical England, do much of their shopping there?


> as for my current town, I've spoke to nafia (remembers tito) and she says she's worried about what it all means for friends, she has permanent reisdence. Oh and Viz, brit indian, recons its a flash in the pan and business will continue as normal. Spoke to kelvin who said he didn't give a fuck and its pissing him off that everyones banging on about shit when he just wants to watch tv with his boy.
> 
> I'd expect to have seen more triumphalism from people, vile kettering (hated by lindsey lohan) was enjoying a day in the news. No one ever mentions us normally. There's a depressing amount of ED voters last time I checked but its not turned into nuremburg rallies outside the arts building (open by appointment)


Good.  Are you comfortable about the possibilities?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> Good. Are you comfortable about the possibilities?


of what? 'we' keep returning a ukipper in all but name. Thats not new, the mans been in the job since elijah was young. EU or no EU.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> hether people who live further along, in what looks like more typical England, do much of their shopping there?


you do if you want a bargain, if you want a specific veg not stocked in mainstream supermarkets, if you just like weird and wonderful little shops like the army surplus store with its stange owners and loyal border collie. We aren't segregated in northampton. There's an odd little church thats sprung up there recently, keep meaning to ask locals what teir deal is. If they haven't applied for change of use it might get shut down. They did that to a 'mosque' (prayer rooms above a shop basically) on the same road, cos you have to register.


----------



## newbie (Jul 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> of what? 'we' keep returning a ukipper in all but name. Thats not new, the mans been in the job since elijah was young. EU or no EU.


your phrase was nuremburg rallies, I said something about what worries us and mentioned attitudes to deportations and hate crime.  

So, are you comfortable about with the mood of tolerance and inclusion in your particular ukip heartland?  No worries?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> your phrase was nuremburg rallies, I said something about what worries us and mentioned attitudes to deportations and hate crime.
> 
> So, are you comfortable about with the mood of tolerance and inclusion in your particular ukip heartland?  No worries?


oh not at all comfortable. Thing is I've lived and worked in this town for over a decade and the attitudes have remained the same. Some people safe as houses, some racist, some borderline. Everytime I've encountered the racism I've shut it down or fucked off. Let me give you an example: working at weetabix factory a guy started a rumour that 'the poles' were working un unionised and in the dark, the particular site on the wider site had electricity problems. Swallowed whole by some, strongly denied when I asked the polish lad I had a 'smokers friendship' with. The agencey tried to make them keep going in and operate heavy machinery by makeshift lighting. So says he and and I believed it. Agencies have ravaged the light industrial sector and are happy to pit worker against worker, Kettering Textiles had THREE agencies operating in the same warehouse while I was there. Thats competition to make agencies drive wages and conditions down. For everyone. Visceral dogshit through letterboxes death threat combat 18 fash styles, not seen it.

here's one:

'It was great when churches* were still here, everyone was doing alright then'

*shoemakers


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## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2016)

and the EU did nothing to stop post industrial decline.


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## Gramsci (Jul 6, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating.
> 
> Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.



There is a complete lack of understanding of this from some people. Was chatting to a couple of people before vote who are Remainers. They were saying all these people from abroad "we" couldn’t do without them. I did say to them ( as a Remainer) the effects that you list in your post. They really didn’t understand what I was going on about.

They gave as an example the NHS. I said to them is it really that good we take people from Philippines for example. Its is not a wealthy country and trains its nurses only to have a country like this poach them. The shortage of nurses here is due to the fact not enough resources are put into training nurses in UK. This didn’t go down well either.

Leaving EU is not going to stop this. ( leaving aside argument that people should have right to freedom of movement as a human right.) What will happen is that business will lobby government to make sure post BREXIT UK will have access to labour "markets". Farmers are already moaning about this.

As UK was not part of the Euro the cuts and growing wealth divide are due to the policies of this Tory government. Its not due to being in the EU.

Listened to a programme about US and the appeal of Trump. Trump appeals to those who have lost out due to "Globalisation". Towns in US that used to have a few manufacturing business that provided secure jobs have know lost them. This has left a whole lot of Americans frustrated. Capital moved to China to find cheaper manufacturing workforce. Also listened to Mariana Mazzucato on radio on "Globalisation". Its the form its taken she says is the problem. Looks like at least some of the Out vote could be general feeling that how the system works does nothing for them. As in US.


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## Gramsci (Jul 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> The attitude to tolerance coming from inner London is pretty unequivocal, I think.  Attitudes from leaver areas are much more mixed.
> 
> 
> "we", "they", yeh, I know.  I've struggled for days to figure out how to express the innercity perspective I'm picking up from those around me.  It's what I think is going on, and why, I'm not trying to speak for anyone else.



I would also add this didn’t happen overnight. Taking our patch Brixton when the Caribbeans first came here they got a mixed welcome. Back in 81 riot a pub was torched that had a reputation of being racist for example. There was a lot of outright racism in parts of London when I first came here in 1980. Its taken a generation to get to where London is now. My personal experience is that living in London tolerance is something one learns. Its not a given.

Its taken years for London to get to be a tolerant place. What I could be seeing is the high point of London being tolerant. Tolerance is a fragile thing. The growing wealth divide due to this government, threat to social housing, central London becoming just for the rich are changing London for the worse for many. Possibly going to cause less tolerance of others. But not based on race but class. I don’t hear people blaming immigration that often but do hear people say things like "London is just for the rich now not for the likes of us.".

To add. I feel London as a tolerant place is something that many in London feel they have a personal investment in. Its not something imposed from above. Explains why there was a pride in Lambeth having big in vote.

The big In vote here in Lambeth was something a lot of people I know felt proud of. It was mentioned in press as one of the highest percentages for Remain.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating.
> 
> Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.



Part of the problem with regard to the issues you mention locally, have less to do with immigration than our local and national politicians would have people believe. The schools problem in Lambeth can be set at the door or successive Labour administrations in the nineties and noughties selling off schools for development, rather than mothballing them - as had been the policy of successive Education Authorities since the 1930s, as they understood how easily demographic projections could break down - and relying on neighbouring boroughs to take up the slack.

Housing, healthcare and employment also have contributory factors that although they're not helped by immigration, would still manifest - arguably almost as harshly, due to spurious "austerity" cuts - if immigration wasn't an issue.  Immigration is a very easy scapegoat that has become all things to all politicians, so getting people to appreciate that voting "leave" *doesn't* mean that you're anti-immigrant is a bit of a hard slog in some settings. My own vote had nothing to do with immigration or race, and everything to do with assessing that ameliorating and/or reversing some of the effects and policies of neoliberalism would be slightly more possible out than in the EU.


----------



## newbie (Jul 6, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> To add. I feel London as a tolerant place is something that many in London feel they have a personal investment in. Its not something imposed from above.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 6, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Tolerance is a fragile thing. The growing wealth divide due to this government, threat to social housing, central London becoming just for the rich are changing London for the worse for many. Possibly going to cause less tolerance of others. But not based on race but class. I don’t hear people blaming immigration that often but do hear people say things like "London is just for the rich now not for the likes of us."


I agree with this, it's something I hear a lot, an almost unconscious divide among people, not so much class or have / have nots, but a recognition of where people are able to get to, more the can / cannots. We disagree on our attribution for the issues, I blame our government as well as EU, because neither are helping the country as a whole to manage the impact of the rise of big corporates through the innocuous sounding "globalisation". You blame only our government and feel the EU isn't aggravating matters. The irony of some reluctant remain voters complaining about the working class can't be lost upon either of us. What's left to say but hoping that the future will only extend that tolerance?


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Part of the problem with regard to the issues you mention locally, have less to do with immigration than our local and national politicians would have people believe. The schools problem in Lambeth can be set at the door or successive Labour administrations in the nineties and noughties selling off schools for development, rather than mothballing them - as had been the policy of successive Education Authorities since the 1930s, as they understood how easily demographic projections could break down - and relying on neighbouring boroughs to take up the slack.
> 
> Housing, healthcare and employment also have contributory factors that although they're not helped by immigration, would still manifest - arguably almost as harshly, due to spurious "austerity" cuts - if immigration wasn't an issue.  Immigration is a very easy scapegoat that has become all things to all politicians, so getting people to appreciate that voting "leave" *doesn't* mean that you're anti-immigrant is a bit of a hard slog in some settings. My own vote had nothing to do with immigration or race, and everything to do with assessing that ameliorating and/or reversing some of the effects and policies of neoliberalism would be slightly more possible out than in the EU.


Yeah, Lambeth have really been appalling at certain things (austerity = turf people out of their homes, turn libraries into gyms etc). We can't blame them for everything but they have certainly aggravated the issues with schools (as have central government with the idea of academies). Austerity as policy is central government + EU however.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 7, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> Yeah, Lambeth have really been appalling at certain things (austerity = turf people out of their homes, turn libraries into gyms etc). We can't blame them for everything but they have certainly aggravated the issues with schools (as have central government with the idea of academies). Austerity as policy is central government + EU however.



Apropos of nothing at all, one of our ward councillors attempted to blame austerity for lack of maintenance of social housing stock. She appeared surprised when told "housing repair and maintenance funding is via the Housing Revenue Account, which is ring-fenced. The only austerity cut is the entirely-manageable 1% per year off of council rents for 4 years from 2016-2019". Whether she's just stupid, or has been fed a line that she was willing to believe, I don't know.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 7, 2016)

I often wonder how stupid they might be. I don't recall the thread, but I commented somewhere else that a split of PLP might actually be great for Lambeth, give us a chance to clear out some of the deadwood.


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

editor said:


> Bit pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who can only see the world in such ridiculous black/white, chip-on-the-shoulder stereotypes. Oh well. Enjoy slagging off all those people you know nothing about, But you've seen the _photos_, right?


Don't need the photos, just have to read their opinions on various social media outlets, not very 'inclusive' are they?


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> That man was living in a shoebox eating cold gravel at the bottom of a lake when oliver cromwell was in short trousers. you soft southern hipster fop.


I'll remember that crack, me bonnie lad


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> i do..and occasionally minge.
> 
> eta
> 
> mind you coley probably calls it a " tuppence " or something.


Nae, refer to it as occasionally red.


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Can we please stop this Pure Northern Class Consciousness vs London Liberal Smun Cunts FC delineation. It couldn't be more stupid.
> First of all 40% of Londoners voted Leave - millions of people. Then you have to make up a story in your head about who the people are on both sides of the vote and what their intentions are. The fact that many of the leave voters were well healed folk living in the home county bordering boroughs is just one of many complexities to this.
> 
> For a board thats meant to care about politics its really backwards. The referendum is complex and full of contradictions upon contradictions - so much discussion already but it seems the lesson drawn my some is Londoners are cunts Northerners are mint.
> ...



Sorry, I do humbly apologise, but, not having many European friends and the the rich cosmopolitan mix you wax so eloquently about, 
So, we are left to draw on our experiences,  a devastated North and a rich successful London and SE, that many in London and the SE voted leave suggests an even bigger and more complicated 'divide' ?


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> By 'your lot' do you mean anyone on that march or just remain voter in general? 20/30s somethings? Do you know how old Ed is?
> 
> When is the last time you visited London? When you came here where did you go? What do you know about working class people here? What do you know about deprived parts of London? How do you account for the 40% of Londoners that voted leave?



I have spent a lot of time reading the accounts of Londoners who have had an even worse time of it than those of us here in the North, their problem is they have something of value, a housing estate, a park, a refuge, on sites worth millions, as opposed to us in the North.
The problem is, while since the 30s we have been constantly hammered, the perception, is that the from the North, the  affluent South didn't give a monkeys regarding our suffering.
Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

coley said:


> I have spent a lot of time reading the accounts of Londoners who have had an even worse time of it than those of us here in the North, their problem is they have something of value, a housing estate, a park, a refuge, on sites worth millions, as opposed to us in the North.
> The problem is, while since the 30s we have been constantly hammered, the perception, is that the from the North, the  affluent South didn't give a monkeys regarding our suffering.
> Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.



Wait, I'm not understanding why someone "has something of value" if they live on a housing estate on a site "worth millions", unless you mean owning a home that has suddenly become worth £££. Surely if you're renting, and the council or housing association begins to think it could profit very nicely by selling off the site and telling the tenants to bugger off somewhere else, go move shift, you're really in quite a precarious position?

Some kind of national WC resistance emerging would be good, but I don't think the leave/remain vote splits neatly as a poor/rich or left/right thing.


----------



## newbie (Jul 7, 2016)

> No one reported the celebrations and street parties that greeted Brexit up north.


Ignore the prophets of doom. Brexit will be good for Britain | Simon Jenkins
I was away so didn't know that and he's right, no-one reported it, google & twitter are silent sfaics. No doubt pubs were heaving but can anyone flesh this out a bit please, what happened?


----------



## newbie (Jul 7, 2016)

coley said:


> I have spent a lot of time reading the accounts of Londoners who have had an even worse time of it than those of us here in the North, their problem is they have something of value, a housing estate, a park, a refuge, on sites worth millions, as opposed to us in the North.
> The problem is, while since the 30s we have been constantly hammered, the perception, is that the from the North, the  affluent South didn't give a monkeys regarding our suffering.
> Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.


Funny thing, class.  On the boss thread you're being taken to task for being a capitalist, on this one you're part of the working class resistance.  That's not an attack, I'm (still) trying to understand what happens in communities that think and operate different to here. Can you be both simultaneously, in your local area?


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Wait, I'm not understanding why someone "has something of value" if they live on a housing estate on a site "worth millions", unless you mean owning a home that has suddenly become worth £££. Surely if you're renting, and the council or housing association begins to think it could profit very nicely by selling off the site and telling the tenants to bugger off somewhere else, go move shift, you're really in quite a precarious position?
> 
> Some kind of national WC resistance emerging would be good, but I don't think the leave/remain vote splits neatly as a poor/rich or left/right thing.


Could  have put it better, your second paragraph sums up what I was trying to say much better.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

Actually I see what you mean now, that it IS a problem to live on a site that's worth a whole lot more when you are cleared off it.   ("You" as in "one", obviously)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 7, 2016)

coley said:


> Sorry, I do humbly apologise, but, not having many European friends and the the rich cosmopolitan mix you wax so eloquently about,
> So, we are left to draw on our experiences,  a devastated North and a rich successful London and SE, that many in London and the SE voted leave suggests an even bigger and more complicated 'divide' ?



"Rich" and "successful" is bollocks, though. Sure, overall wealth and employment is concentrated in the south-east, but among the same proportion of dingbats, wankers and amoral shitcunts as it is in your frozen wasteland. Most of the "leave" voters I know, voted leave because they saw working class lives - via employment terms and conditions etc - continuing to go down the shitter under the EU, with even those member states with strong worker organisation being overwhelmed by neoliberalism. They naturally assumed that they might have a better chance of resisting neoliberalism if social policy wasn't answerable to another layer of bureaucratic interference after Parliament.


----------



## coley (Jul 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Rich" and "successful" is bollocks, though. Sure, overall wealth and employment is concentrated in the south-east, but among the same proportion of dingbats, wankers and amoral shitcunts as it is in your frozen wasteland. Most of the "leave" voters I know, voted leave because they saw working class lives - via employment terms and conditions etc - continuing to go down the shitter under the EU, with even those member states with strong worker organisation being overwhelmed by neoliberalism. They naturally assumed that they might have a better chance of resisting neoliberalism if social policy wasn't answerable to another layer of bureaucratic interference after Parliament.


Agree with that but with a small rider, we don't have that many "dingbats, wankers and amoral shitcunts" up here anymore, they have  all moved 'doon sooth'
Sedgefield, for instance, is very rarely visited by a certain TB any more.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

coley said:


> Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.



I think this is a bit optimistic. People have been given an opportunity to express their nationalism and have taken it, which possibly they wouldn't have if they felt a bit more secure. Superficially, it might be seen as two fingers to the man, but it's letting off steam rather than anything you could call "resistance". Very few people voted leave because they understood the EU to be an oppressive force in their lives, even if they might have done.

You can tell this is how it is, IMO, from the demographics of how people voted. The differences between Scotland and E/W, young and old, white and non-white tell us that that class interest is not the main motivating force in the picture.


----------



## newbie (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> You can tell this is how it is, IMO, from the demographics of how people voted. The differences between Scotland and E/W, young and old, *white and non-white* tell us that that class interest is not the main motivating force in the picture.


The bit I've bolded is new to me, do you have a source please.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

newbie said:


> The bit I've bolded is new to me, do you have a source please.



I'm too new to post links, but it's on Lord Ashcroft's website under "How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday and why".




			
				Lord Ashcroft said:
			
		

> White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.


----------



## newbie (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> I'm too new to post links, but it's on Lord Ashcroft's website under "How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday and why".


oops, tvm I read it and missed that bit


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

newbie said:


> Innercity Remainers were a minority, the ball is not in our court.  If it was the word *deportation* would not be in todays news



The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place.  The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side.  In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year.  As such a Remain vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.

Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage.  They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does.  But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about.  This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign.  Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.


----------



## newbie (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place.  The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side.  In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year.  As such a *Leave* vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.
> 
> Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage.  They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does.  But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about.  This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign.  Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.




? is that what you meant to type?

Surely the reality is that May's £35,000 nastiness will be extended to cover EU citizens as well?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place.  The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side.  In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year.  As such a Leave vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.
> 
> Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage.  They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does.  But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about.  This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign.  Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.



Except, in the account you give, the driving force is the fact that the government has "repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands". Something had to give, regardless of the outcome of the referendum, and even if no referendum had ever been held, so it's hard to see how a remain vote can be hypothetically ascribed as a cause.


----------



## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place.  The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side.  In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year.  As such a Leave vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.
> 
> Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage.  They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does.  But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about.  This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign.  Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.



Think we may have a backlash problem when we go down the EEA route.  Which will require added vigilance at street level, politically will leave a democratic deficit for those on an immigration tip - which I fully expect UKIP to exploit.  That's going to require far more careful handling than anything I've seen coming out out the remain side in the last few months.  (though I wouldn't big up what were the Leave campaigns either)


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Except, in the account you give, the driving force is the fact that the government has "repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands". Something had to give, regardless of the outcome of the referendum, and even if no referendum had ever been held, so it's hard to see how a remain vote can be hypothetically ascribed as a cause.



Equally a Leave vote.  The vote wasn't about immigration it was about EU membership.  It took place under an administration that was taking a hardline on immigration.  Due to Leave that hardline may be directed at EU migrants.  If it had been Remain it would have been directed at non-EU migrants.  Yet only one side of the argument should be blamed for the conseqeunces of the vote.  This can only be arrived at by an implicit understanding that everyone who voted Leave was a racist who has to take responsibility for what the government does next.   And everyone who voted Remain is an anti-racist, and any racist consequences of that would therefore not have been their fault.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

newbie said:


> ? is that what you meant to type?



I keep fucking doing that 



> Surely the reality is that May's £35,000 nastiness will be extended to cover EU citizens as well?



No, thats not the reality, highly unlikely in fact for those currently here, possibly for new migrants.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

newbie said:


> Ignore the prophets of doom. Brexit will be good for Britain | Simon Jenkins
> I was away so didn't know that and he's right, no-one reported it, google & twitter are silent sfaics. No doubt pubs were heaving but can anyone flesh this out a bit please, what happened?



This is worrying though,  Simon Jenkins has never been right about anything in his llife.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> This is worrying though,  Simon Jenkins has never been right about anything in his llife.


He's anti-nuclear weapons, fwiw.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Equally a Leave vote.  The vote wasn't about immigration it was about EU membership.  It took place under an administration that was taking a hardline on immigration.  Due to Leave that hardline may be directed at EU migrants.  If it had been Remain it would have been directed at non-EU migrants.  Yet only one side of the argument should be blamed for the conseqeunces of the vote.  This can only be arrived at by an implicit understanding that everyone who voted Leave was a racist who has to take responsibility for what the government does next.   And everyone who voted Remain is an anti-racist, and any racist consequences of that would therefore not have been their fault.



The referendum question wasn't about immigration, but the referendum was. It's pretty obvious that it is as a direct consequence of the referendum that a large number of people is now facing an uncertain future in the country. But there's no obvious reason to suppose that a remain vote would have made any difference. Clearly not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but it is especially those who are not who ought to reflect on the consequences of the vote as they roll in.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> I'm too new to post links, but it's on Lord Ashcroft's website under "How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday and why".


It was a bit weirder than that. Christian were most likely to vote exit, then Sikhs and Jewish (bang on final country wide %), then atheist. Hindu and Muslim however brought up the rear with only about 30%. 

So, our most representative community are Sikhs and Jewish people. The far lower % of Muslims and Hindus suggest there could be something in it, but I don't know how much of that was to do with the areas they live in and London common view that leave was more of a racist vote. Or, it's just coincidence and religion largely had little to do with it.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> The referendum question wasn't about immigration, but the referendum was. It's pretty obvious that it is as a direct consequence of the referendum that a large number of people is now facing an uncertain future in the country. But there's no obvious reason to suppose that a remain vote would have made any difference. Clearly not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but it is especially those who are not who ought to reflect on the consequences of the vote as they roll in.



and this post sums up everything I've just said.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He's anti-nuclear weapons, fwiw.


is he? sure he's against the renewal of trident, but does that really translate into an opposition to all nuclear weapons?


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He's anti-nuclear weapons, fwiw.



Then I guarantee that if the UK pursues unilateral diarmament then Moscow will invade.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He's anti-nuclear weapons, fwiw.


can you link to any article or blog or whatnot where he says that? or is this a littlebabyjesus fact?


----------



## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Equally a Leave vote.  The vote wasn't about immigration it was about EU membership.  It took place under an administration that was taking a hardline on immigration.  Due to Leave that hardline may be directed at EU migrants.  If it had been Remain it would have been directed at non-EU migrants.  Yet only one side of the argument should be blamed for the conseqeunces of the vote.  This can only be arrived at by an implicit understanding that everyone who voted Leave was a racist who has to take responsibility for what the government does next.   And everyone who voted Remain is an anti-racist, and any racist consequences of that would therefore not have been their fault.



I do hope that's sarcasm.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

gosub said:


> I do hope that's sarcasm.



not sarcasm, an explanation of how the Remain vote have framed the debate, both in public and in their own heads


----------



## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> not sarcasm, an explanation of how the Remain vote have framed the debate, both in public and in their own heads



It a mentality that will be part of the problem rather than part of any solution.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> It was a bit weirder than that. Christian were most likely to vote exit, then Sikhs and Jewish (bang on final country wide %), then atheist. Hindu and Muslim however brought up the rear with only about 30%.
> 
> So, our most representative community are Sikhs and Jewish people. The far lower % of Muslims and Hindus suggest there could be something in it, but I don't know how much of that was to do with the areas they live in and London common view that leave was more of a racist vote. Or, it's just coincidence and religion largely had little to do with it.



The religion data is not all that useful, because the very small sample sizes mean very wide confidence intervals. To put it another way, yes it looks like Sikhs are fairly evenly split between leave and remain, but only 20 of them were polled. Even with Jews, where there were 98, I think this would translate to roughly a 10% margin either way for 95% confidence (i.e. 53% actually means anything inbetween 43% and 63%).

If you stick to the stuff that's more reliable, leave voters are markedly more likely to be older, white, Christian, hold generally right-wing views and not be Scottish. That looks to me more like the fingerprint of a nationalist vote than an anarco-syndicalist one.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> and this post sums up everything I've just said.



Not really.

Your straw man: Everyone who voted leave is a racist who should take responsibility for their the way they voted.
My actual position: Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone should take responsibility for the way they voted.

I can't see what's controversial about my position.


----------



## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Not really.
> 
> Your straw man: Everyone who voted leave is a racist who should take responsibility for their the way they voted.
> My actual position: Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone should take responsibility for the way they voted.
> ...



I don't think most leavers voted out because of immigration (certainly not on this site) AND of those who did :immigration concerns need not be racist.   If you're trying to bring up a family with 2.4 kids in the UK and the fella competing for your job will kip in a portakabin with 20 others so he can send back 100EUros thats enough for his family to live on  elsewhere in EUrope (or where ever) that's not a racist concern that's economic.

But yes there were racially motivated leave voters.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

For balance here's some of the stuff that is coming for EU migrants:



> "We want EU jobseekers to have a job offer before they come here and to stop UK taxpayers having to support them if they don’t."
> 
> "We also want to restrict the time that jobseekers can legally stay in this country. So if an EU jobseeker has not found work within six months, they will be required to leave."
> 
> "Stronger powers to deport criminals and stop them coming back…and tougher and longer re-entry bans for all those who abuse free movement including beggars, rough sleepers, fraudsters and people who collude in sham marriages"



All of these things could have been done under EU law, and as such will probably be implemented before the final Brexit.  Most had already been introduced.  The four year ban on in-work benefits for migrants that was also proposed will now not go ahead until at least after Brexit as it required the EU to change their rules and they have said they won't.  There's a good summary of the legalities here.  A key pont is this:



> EU law only grants a right of residence for more than three months to those who are employed, self-employed, and economically self-sufficient as well as their family members.



Economically self-sufficient means a threshold can be set.  That threshold is set at £153 per week.  That means anyone who earns, or has recently earned less than that, is not defined as a 'worker' for the purposes of in-work and out of work benefits.  They are not deported, they just won't get the dole if they lose their job.  It is not a stretch to suggest this could also be used as a threshold for the second policy above - that those not earning at that threshold for a period of six months could face deportation.  This could probably have been implemented within the current EU rules, and if not history shows it would certainly be up for negotiation, as no doubt would the level the threshold was set at.  The EU are quite happy to throw poor migrants under a bus when it suits them.

In summary, EU migrants who are poor were fucked, Leave or Remain.  So what everyone's arguing about now is the more financially secure migrants.  Any attempt at deporting this group would not only destroy the economy, but would turn the UK into an international pariah with very real consequences - what other country in recent history has embarked on ethnic cleansing of working, possibly property owning minorities on this scale?  It would also require a massive and very violent state infrastructure that just isn't there.  In fact this scenario is no more realistic then a scenario in which the UK remained in the EU but decided to deport all EU migrants anyway.

I feel really shit that people are worried, and understand that a threat like this is likely to gnaw away at you no matter how many re-assurances are offered.  It is a bleak time to be poor and a bleak time to be a migrant.  But that would have been the case whatever the result and the position of EU migrants is little changed.  Scare-mongering without any analysis of the the actual situation is really not very helpful and I wish people would stop.


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## teqniq (Jul 7, 2016)

Angry remain voter? Now you know how working-class people feel | Dreda Say Mitchell


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## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

gosub said:


> I don't think most leavers voted out because of immigration (certainly not on this site) AND of those who did :immigration concerns need not be racist.   If you're trying to bring up a family with 2.4 kids in the UK and the fella competing for your job will kip in a portakabin with 20 others so he can send back 100EUros thats enough for his family to live on  elsewhere in EUrope (or where ever) that's not a racist concern that's economic.
> 
> But yes there were racially motivated leave voters.



Is it still racism if your sense of fear is genuine? Maybe that could be made conundrum of the week.

In all seriousness, though, I'd be less concerned about that and more concerned about whether this guy with 2.4 kids has voted in his own interests or not (naturally, I'm less concerned about the guy kipping in the portakabin, and he probably didn't get a vote anyway).


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## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Is it still racism if your sense of fear is genuine? Maybe that could be made conundrum of the week.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, I'd be less concerned about that and more concerned about whether this guy with 2.4 kids has voted in his own interests or not (naturally, I'm less concerned about the guy kipping in the portakabin, and he probably didn't get a vote anyway).



If he voted leave for the reason given, then his issues won't get addressed for the short to mid term, and that has got to be managed carefully.


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## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

gosub said:


> If he voted leave for the reason given, then his issues won't get addressed for the short to mid term, and that has got to be managed carefully.



Short to mid term is all that counts. Further down the line it becomes impossible to predict.


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## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Short to mid term is all that counts. Further down the line it becomes impossible to predict.



The people you is sneering at will be clever enough to have worked stuff out by Xmas and it would be 3 years before immigration can become priority.


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## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

gosub said:


> The people you is sneering at will be clever enough to have worked stuff out by Xmas and it would be 3 years before immigration can become priority.



I'm not sneering at anyone. Plus, he's fictional. I'm not sure I understand the rest of your comment, but if you're saying long-term is three years once we can start refusing entry to EU nationals, then I think you're missing the point. That's the point at which he starts to get what he voted for, not the point where it becomes clear that he is better off.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Is it still racism if your sense of fear is genuine? Maybe that could be made conundrum of the week.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, I'd be less concerned about that and more concerned about whether this guy with 2.4 kids has voted in his own interests or not (naturally, I'm less concerned about the guy kipping in the portakabin, and he probably didn't get a vote anyway).


“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown” 
H.P. Lovecraft


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown”
> H.P. Lovecraft


...who was of course a massive racist.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ...who was of course a massive racist.


yes. But while raheem's hypothetical sense of fear may be real, I'm not sure, as per lovecraft, that it can have a basis in fact as the auldest and strongest fears are if course of what we do not know and have not experienced in our quotidian lives.


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## J Ed (Jul 7, 2016)

One of the grossest things I have seen said online, and it's more than a few people saying it, is that the country was really going places prior to the Brexit vote. We had a good thing, and great prospects, then we fucked it. Not unlike the people who constantly bang on about how great the Lib Dems were as a 'moderating influence' on the Tories.


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## treelover (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Not really.
> 
> Your straw man: Everyone who voted leave is a racist who should take responsibility for their the way they voted.
> My actual position: Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone should take responsibility for the way they voted.
> ...


Angry remain voter? Now you know how working-class people feel | Dreda Say Mitchell


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 7, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ...who was of course a massive racist.



...thereby invalidating any philosophical commentary or life observation that he made, about anything at all.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 7, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> ...thereby invalidating any philosophical commentary or life observation that he made, about anything at all.


Well that's an odd position to take.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> ...thereby invalidating any philosophical commentary or life observation that he made, about anything at all.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 8, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> ...thereby invalidating any philosophical commentary or life observation that he made, about anything at all.



No thereby making you think why he might see fear and specifically fear of the other (as opposed to fear of being injured or killed) as the 'oldest and strongest' emotion. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## redsquirrel (Jul 8, 2016)

Has anyone seen a real copy of this silly new paper for Remainers


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## inva (Jul 8, 2016)

> The New European is not aligned with old political divisions


hmm


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## inva (Jul 8, 2016)

pro eu
neither left nor right
throw in a bit of post referendum generation war railing against the old

I think they need a new party...


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## andysays (Jul 8, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> No thereby making you think why he might see fear and specifically fear of the other (as opposed to fear of being injured or killed) as the 'oldest and strongest' emotion.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



TBH, I think you've got it back to front, the racism doesn't explain the emotion, the emotion explains (to some extent) the racism.

The idea that fear of the unknown is the oldest and strongest human* emotion, is hardly exclusive to HPL; it's a common idea among psychologists of his time and since. And fear of the unknown is precisely fear of being potentially injured or killed. 

None of that means that fear of the other/xenophobia/racism is inevitable, but it does perhaps explain why that fear, being a deep-rooted part of all of our psyches, can be manipulated by the unscrupulous for explicitly racist ends, as it undoubtedly was during the referendum campaign.

*it's actually pre-human, but we still retain all those pre-human emotions, even if we'd like to pretend we don't


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 8, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> No thereby making you think why he might see fear and specifically fear of the other (as opposed to fear of being injured or killed) as the 'oldest and strongest' emotion.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Interesting idea: I hadn't thought of that.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 8, 2016)

andysays said:


> TBH, I think you've got it back to front, the racism doesn't explain the emotion, the emotion explains (to some extent) the racism.



There's a theory that racism as it has manifested over the past few centuries, is a by-product of slavery - in order to legitimize the practice of treating fellow human beings like chattels and draft animals, it was necessary to promote the idea that those to be enslaved, were in fact inferior, subhuman creatures.


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## brogdale (Feb 4, 2017)

Saw a few on the streets today in Whitehall at this.



> *"Keep the Euro-Vision Thing" 2nd EU Referendum Rally*
> 
> Protest at Richmond Terrace, opposite Downing St, for a 2nd EU Referendum!!
> 
> ...


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## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2017)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There's a theory that racism as it has manifested over the past few centuries, is a by-product of slavery - in order to legitimize the practice of treating fellow human beings like chattels and draft animals, it was necessary to promote the idea that those to be enslaved, were in fact inferior, subhuman creatures.


Doesn't to my mind explain the antipathy between Vietnamese and Cambodian


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2017)

Nobody actually dressed up in disco outfits, which was a shame. There was that wig in the picture and that was about it.

It was to coincide with the anti-Trump march btw (on which there were a few people with Remain-type flags as well).


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## brogdale (Feb 4, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> *Nobody actually dressed up in disco outfits*, which was a shame. There was that wig in the picture and that was about it.
> 
> It was to coincide with the anti-Trump march btw (on which there were a few people with Remain-type flags as well).



A conservative bunch?


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## seventh bullet (Feb 6, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Doesn't to my mind explain the antipathy between Vietnamese and Cambodian



Partly territorial expansion.


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 17, 2017)

Blair returns to make it his mission to save us all by persuading remainers to rise up for a second vote


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## gosub (Feb 17, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> Blair returns to make it his mission to save us all by persuading remainers to rise up for a second vote



Article 50 is a weapon of mass destruction?


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 17, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Doesn't to my mind explain the antipathy between Vietnamese and Cambodian


 
Vietnamese plant the rice, the Cambodians watch it grow and the Laos listen to it grow.

: as the old French saying goes - Cambodian & Laotians were obviously not industrious enough for the colonials


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## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> Blair returns to make it his mission to save us all by persuading remainers to rise up for a second vote


Conveniently forgetting that the Brexit vote was a ' rise up' against people like him.

His chances of leading such a ' rise up' don't look good based on this poll


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## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Conveniently forgetting that the Brexit vote was a ' rise up' against people like him.
> 
> His chances of leading such a ' rise up' don't look good based on this poll
> 
> View attachment 100689


he has within his hands the means by which he can reverse the brexit vote, simply by swinging in behind it and becoming an arch-europhobe

tbh if he had come out in spring last year and said the best thing for the uk was to leave europe then there'd have been a 75-25 vote in favour of remaining.


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## SaskiaJayne (Feb 17, 2017)

Say what you like about Blair. Nobody in politics today can come close to delivering a speech like he can. Whether you agree or not with the case he is presenting there is no arguing with his ability to present it.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2017)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Say what you like about Blair. Nobody in politics today can come close to delivering a speech like he can. Whether you agree or not with the case he is presenting there is no arguing with his ability to present it.


yeh i've always thought him a most unimpressive publick speaker.


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## SaskiaJayne (Feb 17, 2017)

Don't be silly Pickers. Blair might be the most cuntish politician ever to walk the face of the earth but he remains an impressive orator & far better than any politician today. Imagine if Jezza could deliver a speech like Blair? We did this in another thread. Being a good public speaker doesn't make a politician good but it certainly allows them to put their point across more clearly.


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## brogdale (Feb 17, 2017)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Don't be silly Pickers. Blair might be the most cuntish politician ever to walk the face of the earth but he remains an impressive orator & far better than any politician today. Imagine if Jezza could deliver a speech like Blair? We did this in another thread. Being a good public speaker doesn't make a politician good but it certainly allows them to put their point across more clearly.



That dull halting, staccato attempt at a sonorous gravitas does nothing for me...apart from inducing slumber.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 17, 2017)

Have to say I'm with PM. I really don't get the Blair = wonderful orator thing. Just comes across a patronising slimy fuck to me.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 17, 2017)

he's got a cheek, when the STW march, gigantic and diverse as it was, went on it just got fuck you, still doing it


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## gosub (Feb 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> That dull halting, staccato attempt at a sonorous gravitas does nothing for me...apart from inducing slumber.







at first you think thats a novel act. But got worn out and tedious through repetition (and in Blair's case mendacity) so in the end its just meh.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> he's got a cheek, when the STW march, gigantic and diverse as it was, went on it just got fuck you, still doing it



2 million people march past his front door and he ignores them. Now he calls on people to rise up in the hope the government will listen. The cunt's taking the fucking piss.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 12, 2017)

Sunday of protest in 40 cities to show growth of pro-EU movement

Bath here and some cities in europe.


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## J Ed (Mar 12, 2017)

March now for the status quo. What do we want? Zero hour contracts, debt colonies and a retirement age of 120


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## emanymton (Mar 12, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Sunday of protest in 40 cities to show growth of pro-EU movement
> 
> Bath here and some cities in europe.


I can understand people voting to stay in. But I can't understand how anyone could be so enthused by the EU to want to dress up like the women in the photo.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2017)

If the EU offers the government an opt-in for UK citizens wishing to retain certain EU privileges and the government rejects this (as they almost certainly would) then I can imagine lots of people coming out on the streets to express their displeasure.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2017)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Say what you like about Blair. Nobody in politics today can come close to delivering a speech like he can. Whether you agree or not with the case he is presenting there is no arguing with his ability to present it.



His whole voice and style sounds like it was invented by a focus group, like he's trying to remember which syllables to stress and where to place emphasis and how to structure every single line. Consequently he sounds nothing like a natural orator, quite aside from the content of what he says being utter bullshit.

Corbyn is more of a natural speaker, and he's still not very good.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2017)

And thinking about it, the last time a country had a large and visible popular movement in support of the EU the Russians invaded and then fascists took over the government.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2017)

McEwan in with the godwins

Ian McEwan: referendums such as Brexit vote remind me of Third Reich


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## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> McEwan in with the godwins
> 
> Ian McEwan: referendums such as Brexit vote remind me of Third Reich


I like the last line, that after an article full of his comments i.m. has been asked to comment.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> McEwan in with the godwins
> 
> Ian McEwan: referendums such as Brexit vote remind me of Third Reich



All the self-important intellectuals are coming out of the woodwork this week. I guess McEwan had a day off from writing his endless canon of overwrought tosh.

And when he says 'remind me,' does that mean he was present during holocaust? Given that he was born in 1948, I'd be fascinated to know how he managed that.


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