# Support the French Rioters!



## ClassWar (Nov 7, 2005)

Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow. 

Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same. 

As the French state prepares for curfews and an even bigger crack down against working class support, we say loud and clear "Support the rioters". 

Make your voice heard at the French embasssy in London at 3pm on Thursday 10th November. The address:

French Embassy in the United Kingdom 
58 Knightsbridge, 
LONDON SW1X 7JT


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 7, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.



"We" going to go burn some diplomats cars are "we"?


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## Random (Nov 7, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> "We" going to go burn some diplomats cars are "we"?



What woukd be wrong with that?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Nov 7, 2005)

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm


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## Barney Bee (Nov 7, 2005)

There aren't 300 French cities.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 7, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> What woukd be wrong with that?



What would be right with it?


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## In Bloom (Nov 7, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm


Relevance?


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## ClassWar (Nov 7, 2005)

Barney Bee said:
			
		

> There aren't 300 French cities.



Towns and cities - thanks for the help Barney Bee!


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## Brainaddict (Nov 7, 2005)

From where I'm standing I'd say they don't really need your support classwar - I don't think anything you could do would get them any more attention than they've already got  
Of course, it may be that what you and your friends want to do is lay a particular ideological interpretation over what is happening in French cities right now - but that would be very different from *supporting* the rioters - yes, a very different thing indeed I'd say


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## JHE (Nov 7, 2005)

> Support the French Rioters!


Yeah, OK - but in solidarity with the rioters in France, what should I do first?

 Pour petrol on a bus driver and set him alight
 Beat an old man to death 
 Try to burn down a synagogue
 Burn my working class neighbours' cars


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## potential (Nov 7, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.
> 
> ...


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## In Bloom (Nov 7, 2005)

JHE said:
			
		

> Yeah, OK - but in solidarity with the rioters in France, what should I do first?
> 
> Pour petrol on a bus driver and set him alight
> Beat an old man to death
> ...


Or you could always just lump thousands of people together as if they were all one homogenous mass.


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## BAKU9 (Nov 7, 2005)

About time too! Good on yers!


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## Dan Jakopovich (Nov 7, 2005)

JHE said:
			
		

> Yeah, OK - but in solidarity with the rioters in France, what should I do first?
> 
> Pour petrol on a bus driver and set him alight
> Beat an old man to death
> ...



Precisely. Antisocial Scum many of them (they're probably the same who beat up and robbed protesting left-wing students recently...although I feel very sorry for the boys who got electrocuted, and am aware capitalism creates shit like this..."you, for whom all men are prey, have made them what they are today" and all that). Nothing positive about it I'm afraid. And probably a huge chance for the Right.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Nov 7, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Relevance?


"Three teenage boys have been arrested in France for *inciting violence by using their websites to urge others to join the rioting* that is raging in the country, Justice Minister Pascal Clement told a media conference Monday."

Relevance as in OP has asked people to show their support, in what way?  *Could* *potentially* be construed as inciting violence.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 7, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.
> 
> ...


I thought CW would say something like this.

Thanks you've helped me make up my mind about something 

Dan, you remember that promise i amde in the bar once? Yes, i'll join.


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## maomao (Nov 7, 2005)

AnnO'Neemus said:
			
		

> Relevance as in OP has asked people to show their support, in what way?  *Could* *potentially* be construed as inciting violence.



Demonstrating outside embassies is a traditional and established form of peaceful protest. How could it possibly be construed as inciting violence? 

I won't be there 'cause I'm a lazy fat git but good luck.


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## rednblack (Nov 7, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Dan, you remember that promise i amde in the bar once? Yes, i'll join.



joining the af eh?


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## In Bloom (Nov 7, 2005)

AnnO'Neemus said:
			
		

> "Three teenage boys have been arrested in France for *inciting violence by using their websites to urge others to join the rioting* that is raging in the country, Justice Minister Pascal Clement told a media conference Monday."
> 
> Relevance as in OP has asked people to show their support, in what way?  *Could* *potentially* be construed as inciting violence.


How could the OP possibly be considered inciting violence?  Nobody is advocating smashing up the embassy.


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## rednblack (Nov 7, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> Precisely. Antisocial Scum many of them (they're probably the same who beat up and robbed protesting left-wing students recently...although I feel very sorry for the boys who got electrocuted, and am aware capitalism creates shit like this..."you, for whom all men are prey, have made them what they are today" and all that). Nothing positive about it I'm afraid. And probably a huge chance for the Right.



yes...but since you've already shown yourself to be an anti working class fuckwit who believes in vanguardism that post is no surprise  how many orgnisations have you joined now anyway?

nasty scary poor people causing trouble !!!11


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## rednblack (Nov 7, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> How could the OP possibly be considered inciting violence?  Nobody is advocating smashing up the embassy.



that would be extremely stupid in the current climate - solidarity is a diferent matter altogether...


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

solidarity with whom about what? to adapt a well known phrase. 
I think this seems more like cliaming something for something it is not.

i'm going to read what the french @ wrote on the other thread.

Don't lay into me i, as usual these are genuine questions not challenges disguised as questions.

right, read it; it said what i expected. I'm not sure what to think really. Yes this is what happens when we have the current world economic system; but no i don't think this is neccessarily something that we can support. Er... At least not in a crass way. I don't support the rioters actions, but their motivations iyswim. I would go to the embassy demo to say 'this is what you get' but not 'i support the rioters': as in Bloom said, that's a generalisation.


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## Dan Jakopovich (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes...but since you've already shown yourself to be an anti working class fuckwit who believes in vanguardism that post is no surprise QUOTE]
> How did I show that? (fuck, and I hoped no one would notice)
> 
> Taxamo Welf, I drink in your honour!


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## Sorry. (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> How did you feel about the Bradford riots? Did you feel a sense of solidarity with the asian youth and their actions? Or did you understand and sympathise, but ultimately see the situation as a tragedy of capitalism and an example of inequality leading to such a tragedy - not an easy 2 sided fight.



I'm not sure the Bradford comparison fits so well. There is a difference between a riot born out of intercommunal strife and one reacting to institutional prejudice (and I think the events in France are the latter).



> but no i don't think this is neccessarily something that we can support. Er... At least not in a crass way. I don't support the rioters actions, but their motivations iyswim. I would go to the embassy demo to say 'this is what you get' but not 'i support the rioters': as in Bloom said, that's a generalisation.



Which parts are you not supporting? 
Rioting per se? 
Some as yet unpublished aims? 
Specific actions undertaken by the rioters? 
The reasons for rioting?
Do you know something we don't regarding the motivations?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

No... I'm being abit wet really. I hadn't read into this properly and was comparing it to bradford totally incorrectly; I'm retracting my statement, suffice to say i am uneasy with crass statements.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

Sorry. said:
			
		

> Which parts are you not supporting?


I will say:



			
				Sorry. said:
			
		

> Rioting per se?


No.



			
				Sorry. said:
			
		

> Some as yet unpublished aims?


No.



			
				Sorry. said:
			
		

> Specific actions undertaken by the rioters?


Yes.



			
				Sorry. said:
			
		

> The reasons for rioting?


No.



			
				Sorry. said:
			
		

> Do you know something we don't regarding the motivations?


No.

Overall i think the rioting is happening for a legitimate reason - inequality and police racism - but the actions taken are not in the interest of anyone and are immature. And i judge that on reports beignthat it is generally small crowds of young men, that nobody wants to claim the violence as there own/as justified, the appeals by community leaders for it to cease, the attacks on the infirm, the attacks on their own areas and social spaces. 
I don't have the right, on so many levels, to judge the actions of the oppressed fighting back. But nevertheless this is my opinion.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes...but since you've already shown yourself to be an anti working class fuckwit who believes in vanguardism that post is no surprise


can you explain that please.

oh and 4 words for you RnB: dictatorship of the proletariat...




			
				rednblack said:
			
		

> how many organisations have you joined now anyway?


as many as he feels he can be of use to i assume. Not something to attack someone over, slightly out of order in fact.



> nasty scary poor people causing trouble !!!11


how do you feel about it all then mate?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> Nothing positive about it I'm afraid.


a couple of things maybe:

It demonstrates that social inequality DOES lead to class war*

It shows that not everyone has been pacified.

It shows that its not actually that hard to take on the police and that an insurrection isn't such a ridiculous concept*


*it could be argued; not neccessarily what i'd say.


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## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> oh and 4 words for you RnB: dictatorship of the proletariat...



that's not vanguardist necerssarily  

i'll come back on the rest when i'm less stoned


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## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

Sorry, is it me or are there a shed load of new posters wirh "wiberal" views?
Nice peeps we haven't had a mash up with yet? Journos? Coppers? Les Flics Spooké maybe?


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## Sorry. (Nov 8, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Sorry, is it me or are there a shed load of new posters wirh "wiberal" views?
> Nice peeps we haven't had a mash up with yet? Journos? Coppers? Les Flics Spooké maybe?



Only one new one on this thread as far as I can see, Potential. The other two are long-standing wiberals.


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## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

As you are, must have been my paranois meets a shed load of pints with the bloke I secretly fancy but I'm to shy innit.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> that's not vanguardist necerssarily
> 
> i'll come back on the rest when i'm less stoned


stoned? oh deary me. Thats worse than leninism.Look i'm not challenging you on it i'm asking you to be fairer to Dan 

Isambard are you pissed?

My excuse is i went to bed, couldn't sleep and have come back online. But i have to ask myself: if urban weren't her - would i be asleep by now?


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## Khaleed (Nov 8, 2005)

I believe all of you will be punished for debating on the "protests" section. Fridge Man will be very angry.


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## BAKU9 (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> No... I'm being abit wet really. I hadn't read into this properly and was comparing it to bradford totally incorrectly; I'm retracting my statement....



So you bloody well should!


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## maya (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.
> 
> ...



are you an idiot?

they've just KILLED two people.
why should we support that?


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 8, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> rednblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Random (Nov 8, 2005)

If the rioting continues, and the French army is sent in, I've no doubt that people will be shot, and that those arrested will be tortured and banged up for lengthy sentences.  I think that a picket of the French embassy is a very good way to show that the eyes of the world are on France.

Remember what happened to an earlier generation of Algerian protestors during the 1950/60s in France?  Beaten, tortured and disappeared.  A peaceful protest is one way we can try to stop the French state doing this again.


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## ClassWar (Nov 8, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Remember what happened to an earlier generation of Algerian protestors during the 1950/60s in France?  Beaten, tortured and disappeared.  A peaceful protest is one way we can try to stop the French state doing this again.



In that instance an unknown number of people were killed, many of the bodies simply thrown in the Seine. 

For some background, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961


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## Random (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> In that instance an unknown number of people were killed



Wikipedia says '32 and 200 demonstrators died. With almost no media coverage at the time'


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## knopf (Nov 8, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> What exactly are you saying?
> We'll be asking you to explain yourself about this and about everything else you've said on various boardsat a London AF meeting, should you happen to turn up.



You mean to say he sometimes misses your meetings, too?


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## chegrimandi (Nov 8, 2005)

maya said:
			
		

> are you an idiot?
> 
> they've just KILLED two people.
> why should we support that?



because they are protesting against the shite conditions they are forced to live in - they are protesting against poverty and discrimination and years of crap immigration policy.

Abuse from ministers in the press, foced to live in poverty stricken conditions, police hounding their kids to death.....thats why they should be supported.


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## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

maya said:
			
		

> are you an idiot?
> 
> they've just KILLED two people.
> why should we support that?


All those thousands of people collaborated to kill two people?  Hardly a fair fight, the bastards


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

i think it'd probably wiser if we stood back and attempted to analysise the nature of the riots, the contradictary trends, areas that point towards something more constructive, reactionary elements.

Basically instead of throwing your support behind a huge heterogenous phenomeon or at the other end of the spectrum comdemning it cos of some of the more unsavoury behaviour, we should be looking to see what we can learn, what they can teach us.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> i think it'd probably wiser if we stood back and attempted to analysise the nature of the riots, the contradictary trends, areas that point towards something more constructive, reactionary elements.
> 
> Basically instead of throwing your support behind a huge heterogenous phenomeon or at the other end of the spectrum comdemning it cos of some of the more unsavoury behaviour, we should be looking to see what we can learn, what they can teach us.


my feelings.


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## Sue (Nov 8, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Wikipedia says '32 and 200 demonstrators died. With almost no media coverage at the time'



Seems the media knew fine well what was going on but colluded in the cover up. And it's only in the last few years that there's been any official acknowledgement that it even happened.

[Just read link so thought I'd add this...]

Seem to recall when they finally put up the plaque commemorating this, there was flack from all sides -- didn't go far enough/went too far and the police should not be criticised being the two main opposing views. And also seem to remember within a matter of days, FN/racist graffiti had been sprayed on it.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 8, 2005)

JHE said:
			
		

> Yeah, OK - but in solidarity with the rioters in France, what should I do first?
> 
> Pour petrol on a bus driver and set him alight
> Beat an old man to death
> ...









Me? Serious? nahhh!


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## montevideo (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes...but since you've already shown yourself to be an anti working class fuckwit who believes in vanguardism that post is no surprise  how many orgnisations have you joined now anyway?
> 
> nasty scary poor people causing trouble !!!11



you've definitely made up my mind. I'm joinging hsg!

From a class perspective are these not disaffected working class youth who are rioting? Who decides their actions satisfactory & their worth politically? A bunch of message board politicos with loads of of anaylsis to offer, & only forthcoming with their solidarity when they can safely assume some 'good' in all this?

May the ghost of lucy parsons shiver in contempt.


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## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

good post monty


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## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Shippou-Chan said:
			
		

> Me? Serious? nahhh!



 i'm nicking that pic


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you've definitely made up my mind. I'm joinging hsg!
> 
> From a class perspective are these not disaffected working class youth who are rioting? Who decides their actions satisfactory & their worth politically? A bunch of message board politicos with loads of of anaylsis to offer, & only forthcoming with their solidarity when they can safely assume some 'good' in all this?
> 
> ...


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i'm nicking that pic


i already have....

RnB does Monty post sum up how you feel on the issue then?


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you've definitely made up my mind. I'm joinging hsg!
> 
> From a class perspective are these not disaffected working class youth who are rioting? Who decides their actions satisfactory & their worth politically? A bunch of message board politicos with loads of of anaylsis to offer, & only forthcoming with their solidarity when they can safely assume some 'good' in all this?
> 
> May the ghost of lucy parsons shiver in contempt.



okay you daft fuck you do realise that we've had working class youth rioting for fucking decades in Northern Ireland, more often than not it's been of a reactionary nature, but it all has got at it's base disaffection, alienation and a degree of righteous anger, even if directed poorly.

I'm glad to see that in France it hasn't been racist but it has involved a great deal of reactionary behaviour that does nothing for the working class, it has also involved alot of actions I have no problem supporting.

Just because working class people are rioting doesn't mean it isn't mostly other working class people suffering. 

I mean it is groups of mainly young men who are involved in the violence, burning down a nursery doesn't really affect them but it does effect a single mother. 

Class War are a fucking joke!


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## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> look people have plenty of solidarity to offer, some are slightly turned off by the slogan 'support the french rioters'. I can't think of one as concise about addressing social injustice no.



actually i think revols point was good, some bad things have happened in the riots- no doubt all sorts of people who are simply anti social cunts are involved - but random's point is valid as well, i'll be going along to the french embassy to show my solidarity with working class people who are showing that they are not going to take shit laying down


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i'm nicking that pic


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

Yes thats how i feel.

But heres the clincher: are you going to an event called 'support the french rioters' and happily stand under than banner?*


*TBH unless the wombles go i doubt there will be a banner but.


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## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

Pretty much agree with r'n'b and montevideo here, I wouldn't say that I uncritically support every action taken by individual rioters, but I do sympathise with the rioters on the whole.

Unfortunately, the French embassy is a bit of a walk from my house, so I'll have to give it a miss.


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## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Yes thats how i feel.
> 
> But heres the clincher: are you going to an event called 'support the french rioters' and happily stand under than banner?*
> 
> ...



i hope there isnt a banner to be honest, yeah i'm not 100% behind the slogan however i can't think of a better one


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

the embassy protest sounds like the stupidest waste of fucking time since Robbie Savage.

What will it actually achieve? 
As if rioting in over 300 towns and cities needs a handful of gobshites standing about in a week london afternoon under a ridiculous banner to the effect of support French Rioters. 

Infact i'm sure a great deal of the rioters would not give such blanket solidarity to fellow rioters.

But hey go ahead it's not like anarchism has got a iota of dignity left.


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## potential (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> the embassy protest sounds like the stupidest waste of fucking time since Robbie Savage.
> 
> What will it actually achieve?
> probably getting le penn elected...


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## montevideo (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> okay you daft fuck you do realise that we've had working class youth rioting for fucking decades in Northern Ireland, more often than not it's been of a reactionary nature, but it all has got at it's base disaffection, alienation and a degree of righteous anger, even if directed poorly.
> 
> I'm glad to see that in France it hasn't been racist but it has involved a great deal of reactionary behaviour that does nothing for the working class, it has also involved alot of actions I have no problem supporting.
> 
> ...




so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people? And it is you, from your elevated position (in your bedroom), who gets to decide not only the criteria but their method of behaviour? 

I suspect with all this talk of The Working Class (an abstract concept sanitised to suit a political conceit) you actually dislike working class people & their irrational, unmediated & _anti-social_ behaviour. 

You can almost hear the shudder of disgust: _this isn't my class._


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people? And it is you, from your elevated position (in your bedroom), who gets to decide not only the criteria but their method of behaviour?
> 
> I suspect with all this talk of The Working Class (an abstract concept sanitised to suit a political conceit) you actually dislike working class people & their irrational, unmediated & _anti-social_ behaviour.
> 
> You can almost hear the shudder of disgust: _this isn't my class._



oh right because i recognise that there are some reactionary tendencies within the riots i've become some sort of fucking Fabian?

I love how you can sweep over all the little fractures that exist within the working class. How many single mothers do you think are on thsoe estates shitting themselves, what about the working class kids who have had their nursery burnt down?

There is clearly contradcition within the riots, some people have been attacking the police whilst others seem to have decided to attack nurseries and even a hospital. These are the actions of a brutalised youth, they are not something to be revelled in you middle class posing fuck!

I'm not screaming hang'em high what i'm sayng is that trying to raise the rioters up into the "working class" or "class in itself" is just retarded, especially when we look at how some of their actions only serve to further fragment the class.

And just how many estates have you lived on montevideo?


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## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Just because working class people are rioting doesn't mean it isn't mostly other working class people suffering.



Under present economic circumstances just about every instance of property destruction will damage working class people in some way- in the short term.
Just as a call for all out- will damage working-class revenues in the short term for long term gain.
Some have said that with a slowly established pattern in the industrial world since the 1960s of new redvelopement money being targetted in areas that have experienced rioting the best way of getting new better buildings, more money etc is to burn buildings ones down.

I think we need more information. Why were particular nurseries targetted but not others? Not all areas have burnt out public buses. Some banks have been targetted but not lots of them. We need more detailed information to analyse targets and who did what why and under what circumstances. A burnt out bus being used as a barricade was what I saw last night on a TV set- but I don't know the circumstances behind it.


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## fanta (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.
> 
> ...



Fuck yeah, let's burn down a nursery and kill a 60 year old man!    























You immature wanker.


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Under present economic circumstances just about every instance of property destruction will damage working class people in some way- in the short term.
> Just as a call for all out- will damage working-class revenues in the short term for long term gain.
> Some have said that with a slowly established pattern in the industrial world since the 1960s of new redvelopement money being targetted in areas that have experienced rioting the best way of getting new better buildings, more money etc is to burn buildings ones down.
> 
> I think we need more information. Why were particular nurseries targetted but not others? Not all areas have burnt out public buses. Some banks have been targetted but not lots of them. We need more detailed information to analyse targets and who did what why and under what circumstances. A burnt out bus being used as a barricade was what I saw last night on a TV set- but I don't know the circumstances behind it.



yes the reason i think it's so sporadic is cause it is just some kids letting off some of their anti social instincts.

I mean I remember breaking windows for a laugh when I was younger and in a similar situation to that in France I'm sure I would have done  bigger shit. But it's not something that I would expect solidarity for.

The interesting thing is how this will tie into the wider class, will it lead to further marginilisation? or will there be a link up in struggles?


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## General Ludd (Nov 8, 2005)

> so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people? And it is you, from your elevated position (in your bedroom), who gets to decide not only the criteria but their method of behaviour?


Are the working class French inhabitants of the suburds who've argued against the riots guilty of the same thing? 


> so there are 'good' working class people & 'bad' working class people?


Yes. I've met plenty of absolute cunts who are working class, the fuckers who've burgaled my last 2 houses included. What kind of absurb relativism precludes any opinion on the actions of others?


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## Random (Nov 8, 2005)

oh great, back to a nice safe abstract discussion of 'what is working class'.  

Thanks, guys


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> Are the working class French inhabitants of the suburds who've argued against the riots guilty of the same thing?
> 
> Yes. I've met plenty of absolute cunts who are working class, the fuckers who've burgaled my last 2 houses included. What kind of absurb relativism precludes any opinion on the actions of others?




easy, a middle class fuckwit whose never actually had to deal with anti social wee fuckers or had the good sense to realsie their own anti social tendencies as what they are and grow the fuck up.


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## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

Obviously it isn't just the trots who fight amongst themselves!   

Seriously when something big happens the ruling class and are going to try and demonise the rioters / strikers / protestors / whatever.

The mainstream media will play up the fact that a nursery got burned to try and remove the genuine casues of the rioting (police brutality, racism, unemployment etc) from view.

We shouldn't play their game.

Ask yourself the question, "which side are you on?"


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## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> oh great, back to a nice safe abstract discussion of 'what is working class'.
> 
> Thanks, guys



well it was always goin to go there considering some people seem to think that a working class person taking a shit requires immdiate solidarity. Of course only a middle class patronising wanker thinks the working class require constant pats on the fucking back, and it takes an even more patronising fuck wit to assume that every working class person has immediate solidarity with the actions of another, even if it involves nicking your car or pissing through your letter box.


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## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...europe_paris_riot_suburb_residents/html/2.stm


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Obvious it isn't just the trots who fight amongst themselves!
> 
> When something big happens the ruling class and are going to try and demonise the rioters / strikers / protestors / whatever.
> 
> ...



I know which side im fucking on, but it doesn't mean i have to put the blinkers on a fetishise these riots. I support those people fighting with the police and if i was there im sure i'd hardly be a fucking angel. But really what fucking use does it do us to overlook the shortcomings of such riots?

Only a middle class fucker whose never had to deal with the actual reality of anti social problems in working class areas is granted the previlege of pointing to the greater violence of capital to excuse doing something about issues affecting the working class.


----------



## flimsier (Nov 8, 2005)

Someone said 

"how many organisations have you joined now anyway?"

I wonder how many rednblack has joined?


----------



## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yes the reason i think it's so sporadic is cause it is just some kids letting off some of their anti social instincts.
> 
> I mean I remember breaking windows for a laugh when I was younger and in a similar situation to that in France I'm sure I would have done  bigger shit. But it's not something that I would expect solidarity for.
> 
> The interesting thing is how this will tie into the wider class, will it lead to further *marginilisation*? or will there be a link up in struggles?



I think "marginalisation"- as in division along "communautaire" lines ispossible.

I've been reading with my self-taught French from Paris Indymedia that proper "les fafs" or "les fachos"- the FN and MNR are ready to re-group and force the issues- especially in the white banlieus of Toulouse, Marseille and Strasbourg.

The right-wing of the UMP currently in power and the eurosceptics at MPF will also make a play of it I'd imagine.


----------



## Random (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Only a middle class fucker whose never had to deal with the actual reality of anti social problems in working class areas is granted the previlege of pointing to the greater violence of capital to excuse doing something about issues affecting the working class.



Actually, a French anarcho statement used pretty much exactly that phrase:

"It is not the "youth" who are violent, but society itself. The media, the
politicians, the pundits all say that we have to give young people
structure. But what kind of structure? That of money and competition (and,
thus, exclusion), the structure of might makes right?

These young people, they are our neighbours, our children, our sisters and
our brothers. They are right to rebel, to refuse to continue to take it
silently. Sure we can always discuss the methods, but we must not forget how the police manipulate and provoke things! "

AIT
c/o AAAFA
BP 5 75860 PARIS Cedex 18
FRANCE

http://cnt-ait.info


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Someone said
> 
> "how many organisations have you joined now anyway?"
> 
> I wonder how many rednblack has joined?



all at once though?  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414442.stm

a surprisingly not too bad article by john simpson here...(i havent read it all yet mind)


----------



## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...europe_paris_riot_suburb_residents/html/2.stm



Fair play: 


> I am happy to do any job, except be a policeman.


----------



## Sorry. (Nov 8, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> I think "marginalisation"- as in division along "communautaire" lines ispossible.
> 
> I've been reading with my self-taught French from Paris Indymedia that proper "les fafs" or "les fachos"- the FN and MNR are ready to re-group and force the issues- especially in the white banlieus of Toulouse, Marseille and Strasbourg.
> 
> The right-wing of the UMP currently in power and the eurosceptics at MPF will also make a play of it I'd imagine.



But we've also seen plenty of examples of the view that "it was inevitable", and "we have to solve the social problems in these areas". Along with the consistent leftward momentum in France for quite some time, I wouldn't bet on such a simple correlation between rioting and a move rightward.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Actually, a French anarcho statement used pretty much exactly that phrase:
> 
> "It is not the "youth" who are violent, but society itself. The media, the
> politicians, the pundits all say that we have to give young people
> ...



yes and i agree with the sentiment entirely but it doesn't stop us from recognising that there have been actions which do not serve the interests of the working class. 

It's a bit different in France where this is a live issue but we are discussing it on an internet forumn in the UK, so it hardly helps the french state if discuss the shortcomings of the riots as well as the positives.

Or have I missed somehting and the CRS are currently being uploaded into binary and sent loose on Urban?


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Only a middle class fucker whose never had to deal with the actual reality of anti social problems in working class areas.



How do you know the class background of the people on this thread or indeed what kind of area they live in? You don't.

You're going to have raise the level of your argument to something more substantial than just accusing people who have slightly different opinions to yourself of being "middle class".


----------



## Random (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yes and i agree with the sentiment entirely but it doesn't stop us from recognising that there have been actions which do not serve the interests of the working class.



That's cool, but can we please have concrete discussion of elements of the French/european uprisings themselves, rather than abstract arguments about whether you can 'ever support' or 'ever condemn', etc.  I suppose this speculation bollocks is what we talk about in the absence of information, though


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Only a middle class fucker


thats the third time you've said that, maybe you do it again on the next page.

He is working class. 

Play the ball not the man ok?


----------



## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

Sorry. said:
			
		

> But we've also seen plenty of examples of the view that "it was inevitable", and "we have to solve the social problems in these areas". Along with the *consistent leftward momentum in France for quite some time*, I wouldn't bet on such a simple correlation between rioting and a move rightward.



For sure there have been a number of responses but the 

I disagree with the bit in bold- only in some sectors has there been a switch to the LCR and PCF.

In latest elections- regional ones March 2004:
http://www. frontnational.com/lefn_resultats_regionales.php


> Mars 1998 15,27 % 275 Proportionnelle
> Mars 2004 16,6 % 156 Proportionnelle



and European ones June 2004



> Juin 1999 5,69 % 5 Proportionnelle
> Juin 2004 9,8 % 7 Proportionnelle



FN share of the vote increased...


----------



## ClassWar (Nov 8, 2005)

*Give Sarkozy An Eiffel!*

The riots in France show that our French brethren won’t take Sarkozy’s repression lying down! As the violence spreads, as far afield as Brussels and Berlin, we salute the action taken by the French, Belgian and German working classes. Whilst the youth of France are fighting poverty, racism and state oppression, the response from the French government in the ugly shape of Interior Minister Sarkozy is to refer to these people as “scum”. They are not scum, they are working class heroes! Other reactions have been just as predictable: French fascist leader Jean-Marie Le Pen has talked of France being on the verge of civil war. It’s a class civil war! Given that Le Pen has a special section of his party reserved for police officers, his views come as no surprise. 

President Chirac’s response has been to bury his head in the sand and wish the riots would go away – just as he wishes the working class would go away. He can declare as many curfews and states of emergency as he likes but the working class won’t go away, you know! There aren’t enough police in France to enforce his decrees!

We’re here today to show solidarity with the youth of France in struggle. It is also important that we send a message to the French ambassador in Britain and to the French government. We remember the 1961 Paris massacre of Algerian workers when an unknown number – possibly as high as 200 – were murdered by the Parisian police force. Then bodies floated down the Seine through the centre of Paris. If the French government is considering a military crackdown in its cities this time, the world is watching.

As France goes up in flames, we offer our unconditional support to the insurrectionary French youth. The media is very keen to divide French youth into specific racial and religious groups, yet working class black, white and Arab youths have far more in common with each other than they have with France’s ruling political elite. Their standing together in recent days against the police onslaught has shown that the lies of the media, who seek to portray the rioting as some foul Islamist plot, are falling on deaf ears. Long may this unity continue!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

i know he's middle class cos he is a womble.


----------



## ClassWar (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yes and i agree with the sentiment entirely but it doesn't stop us from recognising that there have been actions which do not serve the interests of the working class.
> 
> It's a bit different in France where this is a live issue but we are discussing it on an internet forumn in the UK, so it hardly helps the french state if discuss the shortcomings of the riots as well as the positives.
> 
> Or have I missed somehting and the CRS are currently being uploaded into binary and sent loose on Urban?


It seems that you would only support a 100% perfect riot. They don't exist! People get whacked who don't deserve it, there's always some anti-social behaviour. It's part of mass violence, sadly. The core question is, do you support the working class in struggle in France?


----------



## fanta (Nov 8, 2005)

You sound like a right bell-end, classwar!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> It seems that you would only support a 100% perfect riot. They don't exist! People get whacked who don't deserve it, there's always some anti-social behaviour. It's part of mass violence, sadly. The core question is, do you support the working class in struggle in France?



It's not a matter of support it's a matter of learning lessons and gaining a better analysis.

Of course some elements will take advantage, the issue is to what extent will they do this and what organs have the working class in place to structure such rioting, and what sort of developments will come out of the riots?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> You sound like a right bell-end, classwar!


better than being one, eh, fanta?


----------



## knopf (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> The core question is, do you support the working class in struggle in France?



Surely the core question is, is this rioting an instance of the working class in struggle in France?


----------



## fanta (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> better than being one, eh, fanta?



Well you would know!     But chin up, maybe* one day you'll only sound like one rather than actually being one. 
























*Note that word 'maybe'


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 8, 2005)

God help anyone going if that Classwar poster get's himself a megaphone...


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> Surely the core question is, is this rioting an instance of the working class in struggle in France?



well according to the Class War hypothesis that if working class people happen to be involved in it it definately is, then yes it is.

Of course the Class War hypothesis magically overlooks the fact that working class people eat italian breads, drink wine and ride the 73 bus.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.



Anyone trying burn my car is liable to get beaten to death with a crowbar.
I suggest your analysis of the problems in France is very flawed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Of course the Class War hypothesis magically overlooks the fact that working class people eat italian breads, drink wine and ride the 73 bus.


the last time i was on a 73, i saw no one eating italian bread or drinking wine. and it only ran from stokey to victoria.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> ride the 73 bus.



Lots of working-class people ride the 73 bus every day??


----------



## montevideo (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Anyone trying burn my car is liable to get beaten to death with a crowbar.
> I suggest your analysis of the problems in France is very flawed.



your shooter in for repairs?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Lots of working-class people ride the 73 bus every day??


and more are joining them every day since it became free!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

no i think what the UK really needs is a bunch of gobshites pretending they suffer the same marginalisation and discrimination as the youth in French suburbs smashing up their neighbours cars and trying to set the local corner shop alight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> no i think what the UK really needs is a bunch of gobshites pretending they suffer the same marginalisation and discrimination as the youth in French suburbs smashing up their neighbours cars and trying to set the local corner shop alight.


so who are you going to get to join you?


----------



## newbie (Nov 8, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> Surely the core question is, is this rioting an instance of the working class in struggle in France?



an ignorant Brit asks...

Isn't this the non-working have-nots in struggle against the working haves?

if what we're led to believe is halfway accurate, a lot of European economies, including France and Germany, are discovering that high social wages equates to high unemployment.  The working classes want to hang onto that social protection: from here this looks like the excluded demanding a slice of the action.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Of course the Class War hypothesis magically overlooks the fact that working class people eat italian breads, drink wine and ride the 73 bus.


You mean its not all meat pies and beer? perhaps you should stop using middle class like its an alternative word for 'twat' on these boards then.


(yes i know your point was to highlight that not everything people do is neccessarily part of their struggle, but i thought i'd take the opportunity to make my point )


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> your shooter in for repairs?




I have not had any firearms for years now. (In any case I used to carry out my own repairs)


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> I have not had any firearms for years now. (In any case I used to carry out my own repairs)


i didn't know you had a car - i thought you were a biker through & through.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i didn't know you had a car - i thought you were a biker through & through.




Strictly speaking I don't own a car or any motorcycles, all of them are in my wifes name. In the winter here on the Lizard there are time when going out on a motorcycle would be tantamount to suicide.
Anyhow back to the thread exactly who are these idiots inciting people into criminal behaviour by copycating French rioters?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Anyhow back to the thread exactly who are these idiots inciting people into criminal behaviour by copycating French rioters?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Anyhow back to the thread exactly who are these idiots inciting people into criminal behaviour by copycating French rioters?



please provide evidence for your allegations of incitement


----------



## Random (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> who are these idiots inciting people into criminal behaviour by copycating French rioters?



No one has done that.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> please provide evidence for your allegations of incitement




From the first message in this thread:- "Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow. 

Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same." 


Incitement to riot is a criminal offence.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 8, 2005)

Oh god this thread is embarrassing.

I'd expect it from "_any and all_ methods" montevideo, but I know rednblack and ClassWar don't assume that everything a stereotypical "working class" person does isn't good.

While the concerns are legitimate - lots of the rioters are burning their fellow workers' cars, destroying public resources and attacking their fellow workers. You can't give that "unconditional" support, and you can't present the whole thing as "class war" on the streets. It's fucking ridiculous.

Around 1,000 kids from the banlieus attacked a demonstration of working class students for education reform, beating and mugging hundreds of them - is this "class war" as well?

Like revol68 pointed out with northern ireland - people fighting the police isn't good in itself ffs.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

Heh heh heh.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> From the first message in this thread:- "Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same."
> 
> ...



Eh?


----------



## newbie (Nov 8, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> While the concerns are legitimate - lots of the rioters are burning their fellow workers' cars, destroying public resources and attacking their fellow workers. You can't give that "unconditional" support, and you can't present the whole thing as "class war" on the streets. It's fucking ridiculous.



Are the rioters really 'fellow workers'?  That's not the impression I've gained.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> Are the rioters really 'fellow workers'?  That's not the impression I've gained.




The whole point is the rioters can't get any work. (60% unemployment where the riots started)


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 8, 2005)

No calls yet to open up the second front?


----------



## Paul Marsh (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> *TBH unless the wombles go i doubt there will be a banner but.



What is that supposed to mean?


----------



## blamblam (Nov 8, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> Are the rioters really 'fellow workers'?  That's not the impression I've gained.


I'm using the socialist/anarchist definition: worker meaning working class - has to sell their labour power, doesn't live off property income.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> What is that supposed to mean?


I didn't think you were that into banners...? 
And the Wombles make excellent banners?

ok

Blimey, of all the things said about your organisation on this thread, to pick up on that.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> I'm using the socialist/anarchist definition: worker meaning working class - has to sell their labour power, doesn't live off property income.


Really? I thought that was the classical marxist view and things had gone beyond that. That would make teachers working class. Are they?


----------



## maya (Nov 8, 2005)

chegrimandi said:
			
		

> because they are protesting against the shite conditions they are forced to live in - they are protesting against poverty and discrimination and years of crap immigration policy.
> 
> Abuse from ministers in the press, foced to live in poverty stricken conditions, police hounding their kids to death.....thats why they should be supported.


yeah i totally support their _case_,
but not the _methods_ they choose to show that anger with...


----------



## newbie (Nov 8, 2005)

fair enough, but in a situation where the non-working w/c are *this* pissed off, that definition doesn't really work, does it?


----------



## blamblam (Nov 8, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> fair enough, but in a situation where the non-working w/c are *this* pissed off, that definition doesn't really work, does it?


What do you mean it doesn't work?

Class (a useful, political definition) indicates a shared economic interest. Unemployed and employed workers have the same interests at heart, cos high unemployment is bad for both groups (high unemployment = big reserve labour pool = easy to hire + fire = low wages). Let's not get into this now.

Taxamo: if you really need to ask that, I think you've been hanging out with the wombles too much...


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

no not at all.

i'm pming you now.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Eh?




http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/guidelines/legal.html
Incitement
It is illegal to incite others to break the law. This can include incitement to riot, or inciting others to hack into computers. It doesn't matter whether or not other people do break the law; if you incite them to do so, that's illegal.

Also
http://www.uel.ac.uk/qa/manual/documents/PART16-Freedom.pdf

Suggested reading:-
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section11/chapter_a.html


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

toby there is no incitement anywhere - classwar are merely suggesting people show solidarity with the working class rioters...solidarity and support can take many forms...


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 8, 2005)

Shippou-Chan said:
			
		

> Me? Serious? nahhh!



Yoink!


----------



## sihhi (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/guidelines/legal.html
> Incitement
> It is illegal to incite others to break the law. This can include incitement to riot, or inciting others to hack into computers. It doesn't matter whether or not other people do break the law; if you incite them to do so, that's illegal.
> 
> ...



Yep OK but who's incited others to break the law?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Eh?


look:
"Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow. 

Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same." 

They are rioting, we should riot too. I think thats what tobyjug pointing out. I'm not sure he is right though. The berlin and brussels things were car burnings too BTW, not pickets outside embassies.


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/guidelines/legal.html
> Incitement
> It is illegal to incite others to break the law. This can include incitement to riot, or inciting others to hack into computers. It doesn't matter whether or not other people do break the law; if you incite them to do so, that's illegal.
> 
> ...


The OP doesn't really constitute incitement to riot (unless you are determined to read it that way)


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> toby there is no incitement anywhere - classwar are merely suggesting people show solidarity with the working class rioters...solidarity and support can take many forms...


except in the case they point out where cars were burnt...

I'm not arguing the case, i'm just pointing something out which is obvious.
Its not incitement to riot though.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> They are rioting, we should riot too. I think thats what tobyjug pointing out. .




That is exactly it, the first message reads to me as:-  let's all go out and burn some cars.
It isn't a clear message :-we do not condone their action but we support their cause.


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> That is exactly it, the first message reads to me as:-  let's all go out and burn some cars.
> It isn't a clear message :-we do not condone their action but we support their cause.


"Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow. 

Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have *shown their support* - it is time we did the same."


----------



## newbie (Nov 8, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Class (a useful, political definition) indicates a shared economic interest. Unemployed and employed workers have the same interests at heart, cos high unemployment is bad for both groups (high unemployment = big reserve labour pool = easy to hire + fire = low wages). Let's not get into this now.



like I said above, I'm an ignorant Brit and my understanding of what's going on across the water is skimpy and partial.  but for months now we've been fed the line that Anglo/American economic liberalism is at odds with European social protectionism, with unemployment being a major point of difference.  The agenda for pumping out that line is fairly obvious.  However, there are social consequences to both models, and they don't necessarily shoehorn into a common political definition.

If, as appears to be the case in France, economic interest is not 'shared' between those on good wages, with a high social wage and strong unions, and those with neither work nor hope then describing them all as 'working class' doesn't really illuminate.  

I rather doubt that people riot night after night, and that such rioting would spread to other areas, unless those involved are seriously unhappy- they think they have little or nothing to lose.  If that feeling was shared across the whole of the w/c this would have spread far beyond the fairly narrow demographic that appears to be involved.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> "Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have *shown their support* - it is time we did the same."



And how have they shown their support, by burning cars.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> That is exactly it, the first message reads to me as:-  let's all go out and burn some cars.
> It isn't a clear message :-we do not condone their action but we support their cause.



nah - any judge would laugh it out of court, there is no incitement anywhere - support can be shown in many ways


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

''Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow. 

Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have *shown their support* - it is time we did the same."

yes they showed it by BURNING SOME CARS! 

I am not on tobyjugs side, i do not think its incitement to riot but can people not see where he could have got that impression? Stop going ''''


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> I am not on tobyjugs side, i do not think its incitement to riot but can people not see where he could have got that impression? Stop going ''''


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 8, 2005)

DoUsAFavour said:
			
		

> Yoink!



if i had known it was going to be that popular i would have spent a little more time on it


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> And how have they shown their support, by burning cars.


Is that the only thing that they are doing or just the only thing reported in the mainstream press?


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Stop going ''''


Why?


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> nah - any judge would laugh it out of court, there is no incitement anywhere - support can be shown in many ways



I would not be too sure if anything kicks off at the demo outside the French Embassy. The wording looks exacly like incitement to me, due to there being no condemnation of the criminal damage.


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> I would not be too sure if anything kicks off at the demo outside the French Embassy.


Is that very likely though?


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> It isn't a clear message :-we do not condone their action but we support their cause.



I think you'll find that some posters at least DO condone some of the actions taken. That isn't incitement.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 8, 2005)

newbie said:
			
		

> If, *as appears to be the case in France, economic interest is not 'shared' between those on good wages, with a high social wage and strong unions,* and those with neither work nor hope then describing them all as 'working class' doesn't really illuminate.


You haven't demonstrated this first point at all. It's a simple fact that high unemployment means low wages for the employed. 


> If that feeling was shared across the whole of the w/c this would have spread far beyond the fairly narrow demographic that appears to be involved.


I never said they shared the same feelings. While the w/c shares a long-term economic interest, not all of us share the same politics or short-term aspirations, I never claimed we did. If we did then we'd be living under communism now!

Can we ignore tobyjug? He's a nob.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> I didn't think you were that into banners...?
> And the Wombles make excellent banners?
> 
> ok
> ...



the sturdy 'class war' banner at the bonfire was pretty impressive. I'll give it a 9.



Again & again those who turn to their abstract political models to explain the world are terrified when those models don't mirror the real life actions & activities of a class they are supposed to be supporting. 

We have working class people fighting non-stop for the past 2 weeks, often amongst themselves, more usually against the police, certainly with a disdain for property (regardless of who owns it), & despite the upsurge in support both in other french cities & across europe, we are having an argument about the various merits of what constitutes acceptable 'class anger'.

By isolating moments that damn the whole (echoing the right wing media with almost shameless ease) the despairing quality of their self-righteousness becomes all the more apparent.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Is that very likely though?



Near guaranteed from the tone of the wording in the advertisment at the start of this thread.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 8, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> Again & again those who turn to their abstract political models to explain the world are terrified when those models don't mirror the real life actions & activities of a class they are supposed to be supporting.


Don't know about you monty, but I don't "support" the working class. When our class does things which advance our collective interests, that's good. When we fight amongst ourselves, that's bad. Examples of the latter would be things like sectarian violence in NI, race riot in Birmingham, football hooliganism. Obviously in France now there are elements of both. "Supporting" them all is fucking ridiculous, as is supporting the actions of all "working class" people just cos they happen to be working class (Fred West?). Is that what you do, monte? Support all working class people, all the time, no matter what they do?


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.
> 
> ...






			
				tobyjug said:
			
		

> Near guaranteed from the tone of the wording in the advertisment at the start of this thread.


I wouldn't say so, to me, the tone of the announcement implies passive demonstration - "Make your voice heard"

Things will only kick off if the police get lairy, I reckon.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say so, to me, the tone of the announcement implies passive demonstration - "Make your voice heard"
> .




It is the first few sentences that have an iffy rabble rousing tone.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> It is the first few sentences that have an iffy rabble rousing tone.



it is simply reporting what is happening in france, belgium, and berlin

are you saying they should say something like, "vague events are happening in france show your support" without saying what those events are...  ?


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> It is the first few sentences that have an iffy rabble rousing tone.





> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.


A statement of fact.



> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.


Not necessarily referring to just burning cars



> As the French state prepares for curfews and an even bigger crack down against working class support, we say loud and clear "Support the rioters".


Call for vocal support.

The wording is strong, of course, its a call for support for rioting ffs.  It still doesn't constitute incitement to any kind of violence.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> A statement of fact.
> 
> 
> Not necessarily referring to just burning cars
> ...



The only reporting about the Brussels and Berlin has been about the burning of cars. Ergo support the rioters means, without a condemnation of the car burning, lets go and burn some cars.


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> The only reporting about the Brussels and Berlin has been about the burning of cars. Ergo support the rioters means, without a condemnation of the car burning, lets go and burn some cars.


Yeah, because that's exactly how everybody else has interpretted isn't it, toby? 

And just because the only mainstream reporting about Brussels and Berlin has been about burnt out cars, doesn't mean nothing else is going on.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Yeah, because that's exactly how everybody else has interpretted isn't it, toby?
> 
> And just because the only mainstream reporting about Brussels and Berlin has been about burnt out cars, doesn't mean nothing else is going on.



The whole point is that burning of cars is the only thing that had been reported from Brussels and Berlin.


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

If I remember later, I will talk to some anarchists I know in Berlin to ask what has been happening over there. We chat through a site that is not work safe, iykwim.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> Again & again those who turn to their abstract political models to explain the world are terrified when those models don't mirror the real life actions & activities of a class they are supposed to be supporting.
> 
> We have working class people fighting non-stop for the past 2 weeks, often amongst themselves, more usually against the police, certainly with a disdain for property (regardless of who owns it), & despite the upsurge in support both in other french cities & across europe, we are having an argument about the various merits of what constitutes acceptable 'class anger'.
> 
> By isolating moments that damn the whole (echoing the right wing media with almost shameless ease) the despairing quality of their self-righteousness becomes all the more apparent.



Montey, i am not joking, i will part pay for your ticket to france if you catch a coach or something fairly cheap.

Seriously. I think it would be interesting.

Edited to add: are wombles not already making their way to france? Seems the obvious thing to do.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Nov 8, 2005)

Ah shit you dragged me on to this alienated form of communication   

My two pennies worth:

If we arguing about whether the riots in france are "good" or "bad" then I think we should all become priests and judges and get the fuck out of anarchist activity!

The riots are interesting (not in a spectator role/armchair/libcom way) but to see the potentiality of non-idealogically based insurrections - with all the pro's and con's (as if we can pick and choose the "best bits"?). 

The French state has lost it's "monopoly on violence" and has lost control on certain aspects of the population, namely immigrant proletariats (and prec@riats!!   ). Instead of arguing about disabled women being set on fire (which I'm sure everyone who isn't a psycho path despises) why don't we look at why and how these riots have spread, and why riots spread in the first place. 

Secondly, if the struggles of the past 200 years are anything to learn about especially those involving insurrections/riots, they all have the capacity (when state control is undermined or made worthless) to construct new social realities. By that I mean, what couldn't be possible yesterday is possible today - what that possibility is becomes an interest to us as anarchists - precisely becuase we attempt to propogate and initiate attempts at challenging capitalism as the ONLY way of human/social relationship.

For all the damaged caused and for those that think the "anti-social scum" has destoyed materially what they had (nurseries, cars, schools, mcdonalds?) they have probably now become the biggest contributors to re-development of amenities in that areas history. Imagine the Billions of euros that are gonna pour into social regeneration, social housing, grants, youth clubs, nurseries, record studios...etc you name it. Indeed I'm not assumiung nothing but maybe they know that   

On a related point: Some interviews with participants of the riots are talking about armed struggle against the french state (acquiring grenades, AK..etc).
Wonder what peoples reaction to this will be? 

anyway just some random thoughts

A
p.s. revol68 is a cock and so is John.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

i can't believe it!! i agree with one of raw sslac's posts!! 

(except where he calls john a cock  )

(er and the bit where he has to mention the 'precariat'   )


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> Ah shit you dragged me on to this alienated form of communication
> 
> My two pennies worth:
> 
> ...




well yes it will be interesting to see what comes out of it, though i think everyone is getting abit ahead of themselves in seeing this as some sort of frontal assault on the state, we will see more redevelopment and perhaps the French will even embrace multiculturalism as the british state did after the riots of the 80's. 

I await the creation of a layer of community representatives, spokespersons etc. 

what it is interesting though is just how predictable this sort of thing was, the whole thing looks like La Haine 2 ffs.

But ultimately the real proof of the pudding is when the economic reforms start getting pushed hard, the organised working class alongside, angry unemployed kids could really see something emerge, without the wider working class i'm afraid I don't see these riots doing much more than being a wake up call to the state which arrogant dismissal of those in the suburbs is really quite unique within western europe.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Montey, i am not joking, *i will part pay for your ticket to france if you catch a coach or something fairly cheap.*
> Seriously. I think it would be interesting.
> 
> Edited to add: are wombles not already making their way to france? Seems the obvious thing to do.



Shades of the Workers Power International Brigades for Iraq here. I think there is a few of us who would be willing to put our hands in our pockets for a one way ticket for Monty.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> For all the damaged caused and for those that think the "anti-social scum" has destoyed materially what they had (nurseries, cars, schools, mcdonalds?) they have probably now become the biggest contributors to re-development of amenities in that areas history. Imagine the Billions of euros that are gonna pour into social regeneration, social housing, grants, youth clubs, nurseries, record studios...etc you name it. Indeed I'm not assumiung nothing but maybe they know that



this is an important point - does anyone think these riots even with a rightwing government won't lead to attempts at regeneration of the communities affected?

can anyone point to any examples where this sort of rioting hasnt led to direct increases in investment and other attempts at increasing social inclusion (however cack handed and ideologically unsound)

fuck it, i was wobbling a bit in a liberal way - but no, i was wrong

support the rioters!  

the thing to remember is, there is no such thing as a perfect anarchist riot - there will always be problems, there will always be nasty stuff going on  - are we going to wait for the perfect insurrection before we get our hands dirty?

seriously if stuff like this is going on down the road from you, would you not want to get involved in whatever way?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

effectively with todays transport system it is.

*my offer stands*

Go on do it. I know the wombles can (through lack of work commitments)


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> effectively with todays transport system it is.
> 
> *my offer stands*
> 
> Go on do it. I know the wombles can (though lack of work commitments)



if it was happening in my area i would, it's happening in another country though  i don't even speak french ffs


----------



## catch (Nov 8, 2005)

Anyone got more information about the riots in Germany, Belgium, Denmark (maybe Italy as well)? All I've seen is single line mentions of it - and most of those have been in very right wing sources.

Everyone remembers the reports about New Orleans about mass rapes, armed gangs etc. in the convention centre especially - that were later admitted to be false or massive exaggerations. Stuff about the nursery and the disabled woman on the bus, although it might well be true, could also be stuff that's being reported without any proper evidence.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> Everyone remembers the reports about New Orleans about mass rapes, armed gangs etc. in the convention centre especially - that were later admitted to be false or massive exaggerations. Stuff about the nursery and the disabled woman on the bus, although it might well be true, could also be stuff that's being reported without any proper evidence.



that's true as well of course...


----------



## Raw SslaC (Nov 8, 2005)

The other thing about the riots is that the class nature of religion (and obviously police - in protecting property) is revealed. The Islamic Organisations of France has issued a Fatwa on the riots ( I assume the rioters as well). This happened in Bradford and Oldham were the parents and mosque hierarchy grassed up "their own" ("their own" my arse!). What do you think this reaction will do? IMO It will probably undermine (if the french youths aren't isolated) the religious aspects of those communities, which can only be a good thing. 

The longer it goes on, the more chance that confidence grows of the youths and they have fundementally the french state held to ransom. Any demands might resonate amongst other sections of society. For example the demand for "Sarkozy to resign!", is a very strong articulation that develops the politics of the rioters, politicises them and communicates them. A friend of mine told me of an incident where "Sarkozy" in August was doing a radio interview (this was after he said that the ghettos were gonna be cleared out with a hose!) and all you could here in the background was youths chanting "Fuck Sarkozy up the arse!" (in french).

One bit of militant research that some of us r gonna attempt is interviews some of those involved (some people have gone to paris already to do this) as well as comparisans with 1981 but als 1984-86 period in the UK. There was a brillian thing written by George Katsificas about the comparisons with the paris commune and another place (slipped my mind!) and it had developed some analyitical tools to compare the two places/insurrections. In included things like level of self-organisation, curbing anti-social violence (violence which was deemed against the cause), political demands...etc. Would be good to add things like social indentification (how people see themselves in each other - useful interms of why the riots spread).

blah blah bollox....

Al

p.s. rednblack is a cock  

p.p.s. The disabled women I have read was in a wheel chair on a bus that was stopped, people were cleared off the bus and the bus was set on fire. From this report it doesn't assume if people didn't see her because she was in a wheelchair or people were badly organised. For any of you lot that went to thessaloniki and saw the stupidity of some people (throwing badly made molotovs resulting in burning their own backs! and throwing molotovs into shops that people were looting!) also in Genoa (shit cars getting burnt, flats being burnt!) Come on we all know why some stupid shit like that happens what to this wasn't the same??


----------



## revol68 (Nov 8, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> Anyone got more information about the riots in Germany, Belgium, Denmark (maybe Italy as well)? All I've seen is single line mentions of it - and most of those have been in very right wing sources.
> 
> Everyone remembers the reports about New Orleans about mass rapes, armed gangs etc. in the convention centre especially - that were later admitted to be false or massive exaggerations. Stuff about the nursery and the disabled woman on the bus, although it might well be true, could also be stuff that's being reported without any proper evidence.



nah man the nursery school thing is definately true, the disabled woman on the bus story i don't know about.

I don't think it's a matter of making shit up, just grasping on every story they can, which makes things seem disproportionate, the irony is that the general crime rate aside from that linked to the riots is probably lower than your average day.


----------



## Top Dog (Nov 8, 2005)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> The French state has lost it's "monopoly on violence" and has lost control on certain aspects of the population, namely immigrant proletariats (and prec@riats!!   ). Instead of arguing about disabled women being set on fire (which I'm sure everyone who isn't a psycho path despises) why don't we look at why and how these riots have spread, and why riots spread in the first place.


good post raw sslac


----------



## Isambard (Nov 8, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> Anyone got more information about the riots in Germany, Belgium, Denmark (maybe Italy as well)? All I've seen is single line mentions of it - and most of those have been in very right wing sources.



Will try and chat with some anarchists I know over in Berlin later.
But the site we communicate through isn't "work safe".


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 8, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Shades of the Workers Power International Brigades for Iraq here. I think there is a few of us who would be willing to put our hands in our pockets for a one way ticket for Monty.





With Herbie Read and Attica under each arm.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Nov 8, 2005)

I got this from an email sent to me:

Hello,

I live in St-Denis near Paris.
It's true that some young people here are angry so they burn cars. They are not organize at all. They are fed up with racisme, social problems and the attitude of Police. The beginning of this revolt comes from the death of 2 young men and another one who was seriously injured in Clichy sous Bois.
They wanted to escape from the police who wanted to control their identity.
So they hide themselves in an electrical power plant and were electrocuted.

The minister Nicolas Sarkozy said about the 3 young men that they were
delinquent that's why police was runing after them. Then he said that the young people were afraid but the police never run after them. So Nicolas Sarkozy lied about the facts to protect policemen.

In Clichy sous Bois the young people were angry against the police. They began to burn some cars to answer to the police provocations. Then the police force launched gases in a mosque. In other suburbs the young people heard the story by the media. Every nigths they burn some cars or symbols of the state like schools but they don't attack people. During one week of riots only two people were attacked by the young people So it is very little compared with the many burned cars. The riots are spreading in others regions of France like : Lille, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Nantes, Strasbourg.....

Yesterday, the prime Minister : Dominique de Villepin declared the State of Emergency It means that police can impose a curfew in some districts and prohibit meetings. French activists call to a demonstration for tomorrow :

resignation of sarkozy 
stop of police repression
social justice

Burning cars is not a solution but i understand the anger.
That's what i will demonstrate for.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> resignation of sarkozy
> stop of police repression
> social justice
> 
> ...




A sensible statement and one the poster of the first message in this thread should take note of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> A sensible statement and one the poster of the first message in this thread should take note of.


nothing wrong with burning the _right_ cars, mind...

even tho' it isn't a solution...


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> nothing wrong with burning the _right_ cars, mind...
> 
> even tho' it isn't a solution...



still rioting, or threatening to riot is a good way of getting the powers that be to listen, at the very least...


----------



## revolt (Nov 8, 2005)

> On a related point: Some interviews with participants of the riots are talking about armed struggle against the french state (acquiring grenades, AK..etc).



According to the independent there has already been armed attacks on police.


"Last night 10 policemen were injured, two of them seriously, when youths opened fire with a shotgun in the Essonne region south of Paris"

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article325217.ece


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

revolt said:
			
		

> According to the independent there has already been armed attacks on police.
> 
> 
> "Last night 10 policemen were injured, two of them seriously, when youths opened fire with a shotgun in the Essonne region south of Paris"
> ...




Whoever opened fire made a mistake by not picking up the cartridge cases. They are of a type and shotload not all that common and the shop who sold them should be easily traceable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Whoever opened fire made a mistake by not picking up the cartridge cases. They are of a type and shotload not all that common and the shop who sold them should be easily traceable.


how'd you know? doesn't say about the sort of gun &c in the article you linked to


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Whoever opened fire made a mistake by not picking up the cartridge cases. They are of a type and shotload not all that common and the shop who sold them should be easily traceable.



what type did they use?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

perhaps tobyjug's recent trip to france wasn't as innocent as we all assumed!


----------



## rednblack (Nov 8, 2005)

firearms are a lot easier to get over there, my dad's mate bought a pistol and accidently shot three toes off when he was in the toilet, he was a lorry driver like mr jug - toby how many toes do you have?


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> how'd you know? doesn't say about the sort of gun &c in the article you linked to



I have not linked to an article.
The cartridge cases have been shown on several TV news bulletins.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> toby how many toes do you have?



The usual 6 per foot.


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> what type did they use?



The vast majority of 12 bore cartridges have shot sizes 5,6,or 9 in them. (9 shot is used for clay pigeon shooting).
The case shown on TV was had a higher loading of explosive in it, (a third of the case was brass) and the pellets picked out of one of the police officers shot was of a much larger size than the majority.
To put this in perspective a clay shooter can use several thousand cartridges a year, a wildfowler who would use the heavy duty cartridges fired at the police might well use less than 25 cartridges.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Nov 8, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> the thing to remember is, there is no such thing as a perfect anarchist riot - there will always be problems, there will always be nasty stuff going on  - are we going to wait for the perfect insurrection before we get our hands dirty?


 
But it isn't an anarchist riot - at all. Not even a bit of a one. It's just anarchy - I take with a pinch of salt what the French police are saying about organised rioting through mobile phones and the internet.

Mainly agree with Icepick and *cough* Revol68, although reading this thread (and corresponding links) has made me think twice about it all.

Agree that the underlying social problems are to blame, and agree that there will be a political return in more investment from the state in those areas. But I don't see this spontaneous riot as positive political act just because there is violence - sounds to me like the politics of desperation from our Urbanite supporters.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 8, 2005)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> But it isn't an anarchist riot - at all. Not even a bit of a one. It's just anarchy - I take with a pinch of salt what the French police are saying about organised rioting through mobile phones and the internet.
> 
> Mainly agree with Icepick and *cough* Revol68, although reading this thread (and corresponding links) has made me think twice about it all.
> 
> Agree that the underlying social problems are to blame, and agree that there will be a political return in more investment from the state in those areas. But I don't see this spontaneous riot as positive political act just because there is violence - sounds to me like the politics of desperation from our Urbanite supporters.


Yeah, I'll post more tomorrow, but the main thing I'm worried about is that the far right in France are going to do really well out of this. I'd also worry measures the government might take (political correctness, positive discrimination, uk-style multiculturalism etc.) in response might also make things worse in the long-term. Race relations in France are pretty fucked as it is, and cheering this along without thinking about it seems a bit silly (akin to Attica's cheering for the The Battle of The Coronet, but much worse). Unfortunately I also think it'll take time for the positive (for us) lessons from the actual rioting and the spread of it to become apparent, cos we'll mostly hear the negatives.

In summary - I think the CW statement is terrible, and you really shouldn't put it out at all.

Oh and I'll definitely chip in to send Monty over there!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

no concerns about the *short-term* state repression, then? the interviews with people on the french estates who've said that nothing else they've tried has been listened to *entirely* passed you by?

just the long-term stuff implications worrying you before the fires have stopped burning?

if this were happening on this side of the channel, or on the other side of the world, i imagine that a lot of people would have an entirely different attitude towards the events in france. as it is, when some of the most oppressed people in france take matters into their own hands following years of repression suddenly *they're* the ones in the wrong - that's certainly the message i'm getting from some people here who i would have hoped would adopt a different attitude to the situation.

what is it with some people? it's "hurrah!" for the gate gourmet workers and for comparatively insignificant incidents here, and raspberries for people who've had enough taking on the state not 300 miles away. i dunno, to me it seems that some so-called anarchists and socialists have their heads on the wrong way these days.


----------



## 888 (Nov 8, 2005)

Icepick - link on demonstrators being mugged please.


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no concerns about the *short-term* state repression, then? the interviews with people on the french estates who've said that nothing else they've tried has been listened to *entirely* passed you by?
> 
> just the long-term stuff implications worrying you before the fires have stopped burning?
> 
> ...



Fucking right!

Reading this thread I'd expect the usual crap from Revol68 in his internet time nappy antics, but the attitude of others on here is bloody shocking, and pathetic.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> if this were happening on this side of the channel, or on the other side of the world, i imagine that a lot of people would have an entirely different attitude towards the events in france. as it is, when some of the most oppressed people in france take matters into their own hands following years of repression suddenly *they're* the ones in the wrong - that's certainly the message i'm getting from some people here who i would have hoped would adopt a different attitude to the situation.
> 
> what is it with some people? it's "hurrah!" for the gate gourmet workers and for comparatively insignificant incidents here, and raspberries for people who've had enough taking on the state not 300 miles away. i dunno, to me it seems that some so-called anarchists and socialists have their heads on the wrong way these days.



Away from some sort of blind black and white world, is it not possible to neither support nor condemn the rioters? Your accusation that failure to support the rioters makes you ideologicaly unsound is a crock of shit.

I don't really know enough abouts that facts about what has been happening on the ground (at least I admit it). Or maybe it's because I've been reading the wrong books... cause fuck knows where some people on this thread get their politics from.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

888 said:
			
		

> Icepick - link on demonstrators being mugged please.


couldn't find anything on google...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2005)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> Away from some sort of blind black and white world, is it not possible to neither support nor condemn the rioters? Your accusation that failure to support the rioters makes you ideologicaly unsound is a crock of shit.
> 
> I don't really know enough abouts that facts about what has been happening on the ground (at least I admit it). Or maybe it's because I've been reading the wrong books... cause fuck knows where some people on this thread get their politics from.


i wasn't thinking of *you* when i submitted my post - but if you think i should have...

why do you think the rioters are in the wrong?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

they aren't.

Should we 'support the rioters' then? Not necc.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Nov 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i wasn't thinking of *you* when i submitted my post - but if you think i should have...
> why do you think the rioters are in the wrong?



But that wasn't the question though was it... the demand being made is that we should support the rioters. While I recognise the injustices both on a mirco (police brutality) and macro (capitalism, blah, blah)... I ain't getting exciting about these riots, just as I never got excited about the riots in Bradford (did anybody here???) a few years ago. They are a symptom of a sick society - the 'cure' to which could easily be the FN. This shouldn't be celebrated as a way forward, all seems pretty nihlistic to me - maybe that's what people here want.

I dunno, maybe I'm being too responsible in my politics, But think of the children!


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 8, 2005)

when do we know if its the 13th night yet? did it finish last night? Obvious questions with surprisingly hard answers.


----------



## darren redparty (Nov 8, 2005)

There is a terrible lot of liberal wank in this thread- u can expect it from leninists- 'One can't support these riots -wheres their program?'
or 'they'll have to wait patiently for the rrrevolutionary leadership to arrive.'
 but some of those calling themselves anarchists should be ashamed.
 The young people in these riots are fighting back against the whole oppressive weight of the french state with whatever weapons that they can lay their hands on- they should be supported without question.
 The 2 kids whose deaths sparked the riots were running from the cops- If youn r a arab or african kid picked up by the pigs sans papiers, then if you are lucky you get away with a beating and hours at the station being interrogated.
 If you are unlucky, then the next thing you know you wake up in Algiers.


edited for abysmal spelling


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 8, 2005)

darren redparty said:
			
		

> they should be supported without question.



Much as I sympathise with their plight, pissing off ordinary citizens by burning their cars I cannot support. Target the people who can cure the problem, the government.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 8, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Don't know about you monty, but I don't "support" the working class. When our class does things which advance our collective interests, that's good. When we fight amongst ourselves, that's bad. Examples of the latter would be things like sectarian violence in NI, race riot in Birmingham, football hooliganism. Obviously in France now there are elements of both. "Supporting" them all is fucking ridiculous, as is supporting the actions of all "working class" people just cos they happen to be working class (Fred West?). Is that what you do, monte? Support all working class people, all the time, no matter what they do?



Just to say we are right to participate in the zeitgeist of the riots, the spread does have big overtures of '81 when the British Precatariat first raised its head    Do those who worry about compromising their political integrity intend to tell other rioters that on the front line, 'oh, if you do something ideologically unsound I/we will withdraw and stop fighting' (sounds suspiciously like treachery to me). The old saying that 'he who is without sin throws the first stone' is a good moral plane for an anarchist   (seriously). I did ideologically unsound stuff when I was younger in a working class subculture, its what people do, and yes it does mean taking sides but more importantly MAKING sides. We have to participate otherwise nothing will change.

Oh, and by the way, violence will exist after the revolution Icepick, you'd better get used to it. Karate and Kung fu are not going to go away, they predate capitalism you know.


----------



## General Ludd (Nov 9, 2005)

> The young people in these riots are fighting back against the whole oppressive weight of the french state with whatever weapons that they can lay their hands on- they should be supported without question.


How is burning the cars of working class people 'fighting back'? In what sense is it a weapon against the French state?

As it happens I don't really think 'are the riots good' is a useful question, what I think matters jack shit and we'll learn nothing useful about our lives from contemplating it. What the long-term affects of the riots will be is an interesting question though, the response of the state will (hopefully) be informative about the state's future attitutes to multiculturalism and integration.


----------



## JHE (Nov 9, 2005)

Attica said:
			
		

> The old saying that 'he who is without sin throws the first stone' is a good moral plane for an anarchist   (seriously).


And he who is without sense or decency is the first to throw petrol bombs at schools and hospitals.

L'hôpital brûlé - la spécialité de la maison!


----------



## tobyjug (Nov 9, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> the response of the state will (hopefully) be informative about the state's future attitutes to multiculturalism and integration.



Thus far judging by comments today stopping any further immigration appears to be the plan.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> nothing wrong with burning the _right_ cars, mind...
> 
> even tho' it isn't a solution...



Depends if the cars are of serious use to the owners.  Like someone who needs a car to get to work.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Nov 9, 2005)

Ryazan said:
			
		

> Depends if the cars are of serious use to the owners.  Like someone who needs a car to get to work.


or belong to someone who is disabled.
Or needs it in an emergency to attend to a sick relative.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

Aye.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Nov 9, 2005)

While car burning looks a bit edgy and glamorous to anarkid types, very often it's the working class owner who suffers. The very people they are supposed to be supporting. You won't see any flash Jags or Mercs being torched, oh no, they are all in gated communities or underground car parks.
The cars being done over have been worked for, cost money to run.......very often money that is in very short supply.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

I agree- although I sympathise with the frustration bursting out among the young in these places, the effects are damaging to working class people with the kind of scenarios you have illustrated.  It is easy to romanticise from afar isn't it.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

i don't see that this is going to lead to an automatic upswing in favour of the far-right - france has a long and proud history of political violence - far greater than ours, french people arent going to be as horrified or shocked as people here would...

targeting working class people's cars etc is stupid - but what do you expect? they are not class struggle anarchists they are people who have had enough and are showing their anger and fighting back against the police and the state. as for burning down community facilities, so what? they were in a shit state anyway - they will get re built better than before, that is a fact...


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

And what do these already isolated and shat upon people use in the meantime then, when the facilities they _need_ have been wrecked?

I didn't understand your comment about class struggle anarchism.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

apologies for the long c+p but it's a translation of a french language article that someone did for the libcom boards and i dont know how to link to individual posts...



> I did a trans of the article you asked for, its a bit rough and ready so no bitching from french speakers out there.
> Faced with the consequences of the death by electrocution of to adolescents in an EDF powers station when they were trying to "escape from the police" the youths of Clichy-cous bois (parisian banlieue) accuse the forces of order of having fanned the flames by deliberately provoking and even of firing above them with rubber bullets. Afrik has recovered a video illustrating the police violence and has collected mutiple witness statements during a meeting on sunday between the mayor and the youths.
> In the picture, a policeman in civilian clothes firing on a youth.
> Sunday, 3 o'clock at the town hall in Clichy-sous-bois. The mayor organised an informal meeting with young people all extremely angered
> ...


----------



## Zonk (Nov 9, 2005)

Here is the clip that goes with that piece http://www.afrik.com/IMG/mov/Keufs_1.mov


----------



## lostexpectation (Nov 9, 2005)

*pen is mightier then the sword*




			
				JHE said:
			
		

> And he who is without sense or decency is the first to throw petrol bombs at schools and hospitals.
> 
> And he who is without sense or decency is the first to underfund them?


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

I don't doubt what you arer saying lostexpectation, and agree with it to a certain extent, but the destruction of facilities is going to have a very harmful effect on people already living in shit circumstances now.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

Ryazan said:
			
		

> I don't doubt what you arer saying lostexpectation, and agree with it to a certain extent, but the destruction of facilities is going to have a very harmful effect on people already living in shit circumstances now.



it will probably cause some short term problems, but then there's always problems when services are being regenerated, and in the long term i'll be surprised if they dont end up with better facilities

anyway as isambard said (somewhere) no doubt the rioters themselves are having the same arguments amongst their ranks as we are here - "should they go and target posh areas", "why do should they feel solidarity with white unioised workers who are so much better off than them?" "are schools and clinics legitimate targets?" etc etc

people who believe in working class self organisation must always support working class people organising against the state - practical support and solidarity must be shown where possible. just as it was right for socialists to respect the picket lines when the dockers went on strike in support of enoch, just as we should support the right of working class people to oppose the placing of convicted pedophiles in their areas - support them where possible, but argue with them where necerssary to try and put "our" ideas across.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> it will probably cause some short term problems, but then there's always problems when services are being regenerated, and in the long term i'll be surprised if they dont end up with better facilities
> 
> anyway as isambard said (somewhere) no doubt the rioters themselves are having the same arguments amongst their ranks as we are here - "should they go and target posh areas", "why do should they feel solidarity with white unioised workers who are so much better off than them?" "are schools and clinics legitimate targets?" etc etc
> 
> people who believe in working class self organisation must always support working class people organising against the state - practical support and solidarity must be shown where possible. just as it was right for socialists to respect the picket lines when the dockers went on strike in support of enoch, just as we should support the right of working class people to oppose the placing of convicted pedophiles in their areas - support them where possible, but argue with them where necerssary to try and put "our" ideas across.




who the fuck supported the pickets in favour of Enoch Powell? Do you think workers should have respected the ulster workers strike in the 70's? Thats the only strike my da ever scabbed on, and fucking right he was too.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

Okay, but it has to lose momentum soon.  it won't, as some on here have claimed, turn into a full scale rebellion.  It will die down, or be crushed by heavy police or the military if it intensifies further.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Nov 9, 2005)

Ryazan said:
			
		

> It will die down, or be crushed by heavy police or the military if it intensifies further.



Which is precisely why we need to make it clear to the French government that the world is watching them, and that "crushing" protests will come at a price, both at home and abroad.


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> just as it was right for socialists to respect the picket lines when the dockers went on strike in support of enoch



Nice one, you've shown up the utter ridiculousness of the 'unconditional support' position better than we ever could have.


----------



## knopf (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> just as it was right for socialists to respect the picket lines when the dockers went on strike in support of enoch.





I suspect that post may come back & haunt you, young man.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

I did find that a little disturbing.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 9, 2005)

so far from rednblack we have had "one settler, one bullet" and now a classic about solidarity for strikes in solidarity with Enoch Powell, is he perchance a national socialist?


----------



## knopf (Nov 9, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so far from rednblack we have had "one settler, one bullet" and now a classic about solidarity for strikes in solidarity with Enoch Powell, is he perchance a national socialist?



When I first started using this site, his user tag was "mob rule now!", which I kind of assumed was ironic.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

I think any eneimes that r&b has have seen and taken down that post content for future reference.  Shouldn't have posted that....


----------



## knopf (Nov 9, 2005)

Just so I'm not sniping without expressing my own views on this: -

If it ain't defending the interests of the working class, it ain't a picket line.  

Don't consider rnb to be an "enemy," btw.


----------



## Ryazan (Nov 9, 2005)

I don't, but I do worry about that little revealing post.  Or maybe he was a little absent minded when making it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 9, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> who the fuck supported the pickets in favour of Enoch Powell? Do you think workers should have respected the ulster workers strike in the 70's? Thats the only strike my da ever scabbed on, and fucking right he was too.




And as he must have been in NI to scab on it, he was brave as well as right.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 9, 2005)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> And as he must have been in NI to scab on it, he was brave as well as right.



well he is married to a fenian so he's used to taking shit for being a rotten prod.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2005)

Ryazan said:
			
		

> Depends if the cars are of serious use to the owners.  Like someone who needs a car to get to work.


do you think those are the right cars to burn?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 9, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> While car burning looks a bit edgy and glamorous to anarkid types


Name fucking names.

Which of the younger element here have even slightly considered it cool?

Perhaps your talking about the 'kids' in Class War?   

And for the 100023rd time, read the thread, your points have already been made - by anarkid types. FFS.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 9, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so far from rednblack we have had "one settler, one bullet"


He said that?!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> He said that?!


it's economical.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 9, 2005)

surely gas would....

oh wait.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> it's economical.



exactly...


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so far from rednblack we have had "one settler, one bullet" and now a classic about solidarity for strikes in solidarity with Enoch Powell, is he perchance a national socialist?



don't be daft   are we not allowed to make one line trolling comments now and again?

or shall we assume that you mean everything you post on libcom's irish forum?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> I suspect that post may come back & haunt you, young man.



sorry no. if you cross a picket line it makes it harder to argue why people shouldnt cross a 'good' picket line in future, same with the fuel protests.
(i can't be arsed to discuss the ulster one, but i reckon staying home sick would have been the best option)

it was a shit example though i admit.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> sorry no. if you cross a picket line it makes it harder to argue why people shouldnt cross a 'good' picket line in future, same with the fuel protests.
> (i can't be arsed to discuss the ulster one, but i reckon staying home sick would have been the best option)
> 
> it was a shit example though i admit.



what a retarded fucking idea.

As if working class people are so fucking thick that you need to train them not to cross picket lines like Pavlovs fucking dog. As if the working class are too thick to understand the complexities of such things.

my da went into work to give two fingers to their shite loyalism, plus he was harbouring quite alot of resentment after getting sacked from his last job for organising industrial action that the workforce consequently backed out of and he was left high in dry. The fact they were prepared to follow Paisleys lot out the factory gates for Ulster yet didn't stand up for their own rights left him with a very bad taste in his mouth.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 9, 2005)

*as if working class people are so fucking thick as to...*

burn cars indiscriminately

burn disabled pensioners on buses

burn hospitals

burn nurseries

destroy their own environment

attack each other

or indeed understand the complexities of such things.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 9, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> burn cars indiscriminately
> 
> burn disabled pensioners on buses
> 
> ...



thats my fucking point we are well capable of understanding these things are fucked up. Thats why i don't wringe my hands and overlook such actions like fuckwits like rednblack. I'm sure plenty of the rioters would take issue with alot of these actions as well.

It's angry kids striking out, hardly the same kind of thing as a strike you daft fuck.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> thats my fucking point we are well capable of understanding these things are fucked up. Thats why i don't wringe my hands and overlook such actions like fuckwits like rednblack. I'm sure plenty of the rioters would take issue with alot of these actions as well.
> 
> It's angry kids striking out, hardly the same kind of thing as a strike you daft fuck.



you really are a thick half wit half breed arent you?  

ffs


----------



## montevideo (Nov 9, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> thats my fucking point we are well capable of understanding these things are fucked up. Thats why i don't wringe my hands and overlook such actions like fuckwits like rednblack. I'm sure plenty of the rioters would take issue with alot of these actions as well.
> 
> It's angry kids striking out, hardly the same kind of thing as a strike you daft fuck.



both though involve working class people. Which is it to be, good working class people or bad working class people? You decide


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 9, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> both though involve working class people. Which is it to be, good working class people or bad working class people? You decide



If you're going to make amazingly stupid and ill-informed points for us to laugh at, could you at least try and make sure they make sense, like.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> you really are a half breed


what does that mean? LOTR reference?


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 9, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> what does that mean? LOTR reference?



Naw, our dear revol is a dolly.


----------



## Thora_v1 (Nov 9, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> what does that mean? LOTR reference?


Oooh, I'm imagining revol as a hobbit now


----------



## revol68 (Nov 9, 2005)

one involves spontaneous striking out by pissed off kids with little in the way of organisation or goals (not a bad thing in itself) and the other is generally something undertook in an organised manner with set goals. If you can't see the fucking difference your a muppet.

both the Ulster workers strike and the battle of the bogside involved pissed off working class people, who do you choose?

I'd have supported the battle of the bogside, what about you?

Or how about this one, working class people carrying out pogroms on jewish communities, I mean you can't be picky when it comes to supporting this homogenous mass mass that is the working class.


----------



## knopf (Nov 9, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> Naw, our dear revol is a dolly.



Revol, yesterday


----------



## Groucho (Nov 9, 2005)

The media will of course pick up on certain incidents and ascribe them to the riot. If any muggings or rapes or murders occur they will be linked to the rioting. Often, if you look at the 'normal' occurances of such events these do not actually increase in such times.

Although some actions will be misdirected this is nothing short of an urban insurrection by the dispossessed. We might not think that some of the targets that are burning would be the correct choices for a clued up revolutionary movement working to a pre-arranged programme of insurrection. But that's tough really. Reports suggest thast there is quite a lot of support from older non-participants for the rebellion.

This is a cry of the unheard. Poverty, racism and police repression have been ignored by the mainstream for years. They are being heard now!


----------



## Paul Marsh (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> sorry no. if you cross a picket line it makes it harder to argue why people shouldnt cross a 'good' picket line in future, same with the fuel protests.
> 
> it was a shit example though i admit.



If I recall correctly when the Smithfield porters walked out in support of Enoch Powell, something like 400 men downed tools. 

However only about a quarter actually marched - the others were presumeably down the pub, or at home with their feet up. 

It is fair to assume that this included at least some who did not agree with/had mixed views about Enoch Powell, but were not going to do something that could be seen as scabbing by their fellow workers.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly when the Smithfield porters walked out in support of Enoch Powell, something like 400 men downed tools.
> 
> However only about a quarter actually marched - the others were presumeably down the pub, or at home with their feet up.
> 
> It is fair to assume that this included at least some who did not agree with/had mixed views about Enoch Powell, but were not going to do something that could be seen as scabbing by their fellow workers.



exactly - when the dockers went on strike in support of enoch - the one docker who was a member of the international socialists (swp) went along to the picket line and argued in support of immigrants and sold socialist worker - but didnt cross the line

fairplay to him


----------



## soulman (Nov 9, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> If you're going to make amazingly stupid and ill-informed points for us to laugh at, could you at least try and make sure they make sense, like.



You should explain what _you_ think is stupid or ill-informed about the points. Don't assume everyone else is laughing along with you.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> The media will of course pick up on certain incidents and ascribe them to the riot. If any muggings or rapes or murders occur they will be linked to the rioting. Often, if you look at the 'normal' occurances of such events these do not actually increase in such times.
> 
> Although some actions will be misdirected this is nothing short of an urban insurrection by the dispossessed. We might not think that some of the targets that are burning would be the correct choices for a clued up revolutionary movement working to a pre-arranged programme of insurrection. But that's tough really. Reports suggest thast there is quite a lot of support from older non-participants for the rebellion.
> 
> This is a cry of the unheard. Poverty, racism and police repression have been ignored by the mainstream for years. They are being heard now!



fuckin hell, i hate agreeing with wombles and trots


----------



## montevideo (Nov 9, 2005)

don't we all


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 9, 2005)

Jack and Revol68. The Little and Large of Libcom.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

BAKU9 said:
			
		

> Jack and Revol68. The Little and Large of Libcom.



you mean they're both little but give it large?


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> you mean they're both little but give it large?



One is little the other is large (and scrawny). Both gobby as hell in internet world but nothing of the sort in reality. Thank gawd for the internet hey boys. 

http://www.inlineonline.co.uk/images/agressive_skater_cartoon.gif


----------



## montevideo (Nov 9, 2005)




----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 9, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> The media will of course pick up on certain incidents and ascribe them to the riot. If any muggings or rapes or murders occur they will be linked to the rioting. Often, if you look at the 'normal' occurances of such events these do not actually increase in such times.
> 
> Although some actions will be misdirected this is nothing short of an urban insurrection by the dispossessed. We might not think that some of the targets that are burning would be the correct choices for a clued up revolutionary movement working to a pre-arranged programme of insurrection. But that's tough really. Reports suggest thast there is quite a lot of support from older non-participants for the rebellion.
> 
> This is a cry of the unheard. Poverty, racism and police repression have been ignored by the mainstream for years. They are being heard now!


You be along at the picket then?


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 9, 2005)

BAKU9 said:
			
		

> Jack and Revol68. The Little and Large of Libcom.



We are fast on the way to one of the worst line ups ever, they have been compared to Little and Large and I have just been compared to a combination of Des O'Connor and Jim Davison!!!


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 9, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> We are fast on the way to one of the worst line ups ever, they have been compared to Little and Large and I have just been compared to a combination of Des O'Connor and Jim Davison!!!



Do you sing/croon?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 9, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> We are fast on the way to one of the worst line ups ever, they have been compared to Little and Large and I have just been compared to a combination of Des O'Connor and Jim Davison!!!



cockers and monty are hale and pace


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 9, 2005)

BAKU9 said:
			
		

> Do you sing/croon?



Nearly croked when Mr Mowbray posted it. Still trying to work it out, it will keep me up all night.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 9, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> cockers and monty are hale and pace



I had a mental image of them as Captain Mainwearing and Sgt Wilson?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 9, 2005)

we've got dean martin & who ever wants to be my frank sinatra.... like.


Mebbe pickman's?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 9, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> I had a mental image of them as Captain Mainwearing and Sgt Wilson?



shane mcgowan to cockers george best?


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 9, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> shane mcgowan to cockers george best?



I always had an image that you would be somewhat more 'camera friendly' than Shane although i agree that cockers and george best are two of the best examples of wasting tax payers money that I have seen.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 9, 2005)

888 said:
			
		

> Icepick - link on demonstrators being mugged please.


I first read about it on the BNP site. Didn't believe it, but then saw it in the (excellent) prol position bulletin. Fucking terrible stuff:
http://www.prol-position.net/ppnews/ppnews2.pdf
(In the student struggles section)




			
				darren redparty said:
			
		

> There is a terrible lot of liberal wank in this thread- u can expect it from leninists- 'One can't support these riots -wheres their program?'
> or 'they'll have to wait patiently for the rrrevolutionary leadership to arrive.'
> but some of those calling themselves anarchists should be ashamed.
> The young people in these riots are fighting back against the whole oppressive weight of the french state with whatever weapons that they can lay their hands on- they should be supported without question.


darren - I take it you include me here?

On a related note, if you must "support without question" people fighting oppressive states, do you "support" the resistance in Iraq, without question?

I just find it surprising so many people are falling over themselves like a Trot sect to "support" this - as if any of the rioters care what any of us say on the internet. I care about this rebellion, cos I want to see what positive elements of working class solidarity there are in it, how it started - was it provoked, in order to then clamp down, or will the w/c use it to win gains? What effect will it have on race relations in France? What lessons can we learn and apply here from its successes and failures. I'll leave the online proclamations to the ICC and  cockers' Workers Defence Squads!


----------



## sihhi (Nov 10, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> I first read about it on the BNP site. Didn't believe it, but then saw it in the (excellent) prol position bulletin. Fucking terrible stuff:
> http://www.prol-position.net/ppnews/ppnews2.pdf
> (In the student struggles section)



I've just read that in the Prol Position you link to BUT those events occured in *March*!

What evidence is there to suggest that the current car-burners are the same as those muggers of "goths, punks and females" in the student rally?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> I've just read that in the Prol Position you link to BUT those events occured in *March*!
> 
> What evidence is there to suggest that the current car-burners are the same as those muggers of "goths, punks and females" in the student rally?



and so what if some of them are? can people's ideas not change? or is icepick suggesting all the rioters are muggers?


----------



## sihhi (Nov 10, 2005)

*TF1 broadcast of police checking identity papers.*

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1865533_1,00.html



> TF1, the television channel, showed a young Arab in the outskirts of Lyons objecting politely about the insulting manner of an officer who had demanded his identity papers.
> 
> “You want me to take you to a transformer?” the officer sneers back, referring to the electricity station where two teenagers were electrocuted while fleeing an identity check. The incident sparked the riots


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

i think icepick was merely trying to point out tesnions between sections of the working class and how it causes division and the effect this will have on the ability of the struggles in the suburbs breaking out into the wider working class.

The fact some of youse gobshites seem to think that such anti social currents are unimportant shows how fucking little you care for proper analysis or even a pratical consideration for the struggles of the working class, both inside and outside the ghettoes.

i.e. what are the chances of linking up with transport workers, hospital workers etc if attacks on hospitals, buses and fire fighters continue? will it lead to further polarisation within the proletariat?


----------



## sihhi (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> The fact some of youse gobshites seem to think that such *anti social currents are unimportant* shows how fucking little you care for proper analysis or even a pratical consideration for the struggles of the working class, both inside and outside the ghettoes.
> 
> i.e. what are the chances of linking up with transport workers, hospital workers etc if attacks on hospitals, buses and fire fighters continue? will it lead to further polarisation within the proletariat?



Ludicrous. Who here has suggested the anti-social currents are unimportant?


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 10, 2005)

https://www1.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/11/327642.html


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Ludicrous. Who here has suggested the anti-social currents are unimportant?



cwf and rednblack in his bullshit about not breaking racist pickets.

And plenty of people have been saying that examining the anti social currents is to play into the hands of the state.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

the two underlying currents here seem to be 
- this is an genuine expression of class anger (however unstructured or _anti-social_) & as such should be supported unconditionally
- this is simply angry young people being angry (regardless of their class background) & as such cannnot be supported as a class action.

What is apparent (& no less illuminating) is those who are arguiong for the second option are using the same excuses & examples used by the right, the media & the state to justify their position.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 10, 2005)

Haha Icepick I remember when I met you and you were fresh from private school. How things have changed with bold proclamations of "our class". Make sure you form a solid union when you join the industrial section of graphic designers   

Seriously though I don't really get this thing about "do the rioters give a shit what anyone thinks on U75". No in all probability they don't. But surely people/organisations can comment on stuff that is outside their immediate influence? OK I'll be the first to admit that the way the left goes about it can be a bit much sometimes, but why shouldn't an organisation say that it supports what people are doing in another part of the world?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> - this is an genuine expression of class anger (however unstructured or _anti-social_) & as such should be supported unconditionally
> .



yes, but not without criticism, where necerssary and once we have infomation from more reliable sources (don't give a fuck about 'analysis' what does that even mean?)


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> Seriously though I don't really get this thing about "do the rioters give a shit what anyone thinks here". No in all probability they don't. But surely people/organisations can comment on stuff that is outside their immediate influence? OK I'll be the first to admit that the way the left goes about it can be a bit much sometimes, but why shouldn't an organisation say that it supports what people are doing in another part of the world?



dear oh dear, i've joined the cockers and monty gang   

completely agree - one very good reason for saying we support stuff is to use it to illustrate to people here in a concrete way, what sort of actions we are interested in, for exampe what we mean by direct action and working class self organisation


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> - this is simply angry young people being angry (regardless of their class background) & as such cannnot be supported as a class action.



I'm having trouble locating the posts where we've said this, could you maybe help us out and show us where?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes, but not without criticism, where necerssary and once we have infomation from more reliable sources (don't give a fuck about 'analysis' what does that even mean?)



my point is those who are calling for the support of the rioters are doing so because they see these riots as a genuine expression of class anger (not because they think riots are good, or that attacking the police is in itself good).

Those who wish to exclude the posibility of these uprisings across france being anything other than _casseurs_ causing trouble are utilising the methods of the right, the media & the state to reinforce that position.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 10, 2005)

> dear oh dear, i've joined the cockers and monty gang



Well you asked me for a gang bang at Reading when you picked me up on your ride.....

Personally I don't support what is going on in France. All muggers, murderers and scum. Lock 'em up.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> my point is those who are calling for the support of the rioters are doing so because they see these riots as a genuine expression of class anger (not because they think riots are good, or that attacking the police is in itself good).



ok - yep you're right there i think


----------



## Isambard (Nov 10, 2005)

This mate me piss myself, just got it off a mate. I assume you've seen the Citroen slogan, well it's now:

cremateur d'automobile


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

amazing monty, you've managed to reduce it to support the rioters unconditionally or denyng it's an outpouring of class anger.

What arsehole even on the right denies the riots are about class anger fanned by blatant racism? 

Why do we have to support things unconditionally?

Isn't that the mindset of a patriot? My country good or bad, cept you've changed it to my class good or bad, even when some of the actions that you support unconditionally have a negative effect on other members of the working class, bus users, nurses, firefighters etc.

Your a right fucking brain surgeon.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> amazing monty, you've managed to reduce it to support the rioters unconditionally or denyng it's an outpouring of class anger.
> 
> What arsehole even on the right denies the riots are about class anger fanned by blatant racism?
> 
> ...



oddly for such a small boy you make one hell of a small noise.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> amazing monty, you've managed to reduce it to support the rioters unconditionally or denyng it's an outpouring of class anger.


Actually his last post was much more elopquent than that. I don't see 'unconditional' anywhere at all.

Its interesting how some peoples preconception about others politics have lead them to dismiss arguments they may well have put forward themselves if the roles were reversed. I think its quite telling that RnB has changed his mind or at least made up his mind on this thread because he is one person who doesn't randomly dismiss people and listens (i know this from real life not t'web). other people play out arguments they have been havng with each other for months. Its fucking tiring.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> oddly for such a small boy you make one hell of a small noise.



oh the great intellect of the wombles usurped by a short arsed paddy, the shame.

Attica will denounce you soon.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

he wanted to merge with them a couple of months ago in fact. Keep guessing mate


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

> the two underlying currents here seem to be
> - this is an genuine expression of class anger (however unstructured or anti-social) &* as such should be supported unconditionally*
> - this is simply angry young people being angry (regardless of their class background) & as such cannnot be supported as a class action.



learn to read taxamo before talking shit.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> learn to read taxamo before talking shit.



yes but then read his(monty's) clarification


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> learn to read taxamo before talking shit.



beneath that shrill & demented persona even you will recognise i have yet expressed any support, unconditional or otherwise, to the french rioters. So your outburst of tourettes is as meaningless as ever.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> rednblack in his bullshit about not breaking racist pickets.



Rednblack I think was referring to the London dockers' and Smithfield meat workers' and Wolverhampton and Dudley Brewery workers' strikes in favour of Enoch Powell calling for his re-instatement and the idea that people should have talked with the strikers rather than calling for strikers to be sacked and replacements to be hired by bosses etc etc. 

The dockers' walk out was partly as a result of frustration with Jack Dash Communist Party's sell-outs in 1966 and 1967- being tapped into by Harry Pearman a closet Pro-Rhodesia type. 

I do not see what is so objectionable in what he wrote .


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> learn to read taxamo before talking shit.


yes i SAW that but then i saw he developed it: that is not what his last post says at all.

Oh. Thanks RnB.

Revol.... Why are you here? We clearly so fucking clueless. I mean i haven't even had a proper argument over anything with you but i'm clearly a total cunt. Surely we just aren't worth the bother?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes but then read his(monty's) clarification



yes but if that's it clarified then his argument with  me and icepick makes no sense as no once have wee denied the riots are an outpouring of class anger, nor have we condemned the riots per se, infact all we said was that those who refuse to acknowledge the anti social currents and the limits they put on struggle are muppets, especially when they claim people should be given unconditional support.

So ahs monty changed his mind and is now in agreement with us or is he trying to backpeddle out of a retarded knee jerk stance that lead rednblack down the path of supporting racist pickets?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Rednblack I think was referring to the London dockers' and Smithfield meat workers' and Wolverhampton and Dudley Brewery workers' strikes in favour of Enoch Powell calling for his re-instatement and the idea that people should have talked with the strikers rather than calling for strikers to be sacked and replacements to be hired by bosses etc etc.
> 
> The dockers' walk out was partly as a result of frustration with Jack Dash Communist Party's sell-outs in 1966 and 1967- being tapped into by Harry Pearman a closet Pro-Rhodesia type.
> 
> I do not see what is so objectionable in what he wrote .



yes. nowhere did i say the reasons for the strikes should have been supported, but unfortunately to revol and jack there is only one very narrow way of looking at the world, anyone who veers from it is crypto-fascist


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> Rednblack I think was referring to the London dockers' and Smithfield meat workers' and Wolverhampton and Dudley Brewery workers' strikes in favour of Enoch Powell calling for his re-instatement and the idea that people should have talked with the strikers rather than calling for strikers to be sacked and replacements to be hired by bosses etc etc.
> 
> The dockers' walk out was partly as a result of frustration with Jack Dash Communist Party's sell-outs in 1966 and 1967- being tapped into by Harry Pearman a closet Pro-Rhodesia type.
> 
> I do not see what is so objectionable in what he wrote .



yes i would talk to them and then tell them to catch themselves on, i'd still break their picket in an instant.


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 10, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Revol.... Why are you here? We clearly so fucking clueless. I mean i haven't even had a proper argument over anything with you but i'm clearly a total cunt. Surely we just aren't worth the bother?



That's just years of squeeling at his nanny that's made him like that...

"I will have a pure working class that'll do what I want, I will, I will" as he slaps her over the head with his vanguardist rattle.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

Revol said:
			
		

> So ahs monty changed his mind and is now in agreement with us or is he trying to backpeddle out of a retarded knee jerk stance that lead rednblack down the path of supporting racist pickets?


no in fact you both basically agree you just go about saying it in different ways. Classwar's bombastic post kind of put me off, as did then idea of 'unconditional support' - but as you might expect, its just their way of propagandising*

*whatever you want to call it. Don't particularly like it, its like a drunk shouting at you.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> So ahs monty changed his mind and is now in agreement with us or is he trying to backpeddle out of a retarded knee jerk stance that lead rednblack down the path of supporting racist pickets?



no backpeddling, and sorry where have i actually supported racist pickets?  that is the sort of vile, mad, shrill accusation i've come to expect from you sadly


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yes. nowhere did i say the reasons for the strikes should have been supported, but unfortunately to revol and jack there is only one very narrow way of looking at the world, anyone who veers from it is crypto-fascist



no it was you who sees the world one way eg workig class actions are always to be supported, even when you vehemently disagree with them.

and don't try and sneak out of this one, your dodgy logic led you down a cul de sac and now your relying on the smarter boys to drag you out of the shit.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> and don't try and sneak out of this one, your dodgy logic led you down a cul de sac and now your relying on the smarter boys to drag you out of the shit.


  

This is really iluminating: revol, urban75 really isn't that sinister - their is no conspiracy going on. You should really take a deep breath and calm down - go burn a car or something.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> no it was you who sees the world one way eg workig class actions are always to be supported, even when you vehemently disagree with them.
> 
> and don't try and sneak out of this one, your dodgy logic led you down a cul de sac and now your relying on the smarter boys to drag you out of the shit.



dont be fucking stupid  i said you don't cross a picket line, you go and talk to them and argue about your position or if you feel that would be unsafe then phone in sick and argue with them later at work - that does not mean you support their goals  

it's this ridiculous, dogmatic, ill tempered, ranty, shrill atitude of yours, you're more trot than most trots on here...


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> This is really iluminating: revol, urban75 really isn't that sinister - their is no conspiracy going on. You should really take a deep breath and calm down - go burn a car or something.



i think he's making a dig because i havent been to university or summat


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> no backpeddling, and sorry where have i actually supported racist pickets?  that is the sort of vile, mad, shrill accusation i've come to expect from you sadly



well by refusing to cross it i would suggest your offering quietest support to it and for the wider world appearing to show support for a racist piece of shit.

my da scabbed on the general workers strike cos it was a farce that only further divided the working class and infact only empowered the parasites who milk them dry. Should he stood at the picket line and argued with them? Well he did have his arguments months before the strike and it was clear they weren' for changing. If they wanna lose their jobs over Powell or Paisley fuck'em, if they put race or nation above fellow workers then fuck'em. 

What sort of message would your stance have given to black and asian workers. It basically tells them that even white socialists don't give a fuck about 'em.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

if you want to start a seperate thread revol thats fine, i'm not derailing this any more...


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

apart from writing articles, what have french anarchists and socialist been doing on the ground? Surely something?


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 10, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> apart from writing articles, what have french anarchists and socialist been doing on the ground? Surely something?



Sweet Fuck All, same as in this country... talk a lot and hand out leaflets a bit, but otherwise spectacularly fail to politicise any of the young people involved, and will now resort to petty in-fighting instead.

It's all blown over now anyway from what I have seen, a week was enough to make a point.

Now, to rebuild all those evil French capitalist institutions - like the infant schools, gymnasiums, community centres, etc.


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 10, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> apart from writing articles, what have french anarchists and socialist been doing on the ground? Surely something?



I'd of thought they'd be out n about on the ground as opposed to Revol stylee of peering from behind the barricade of bedroom furniture going "Tut! Tut!".

I expect we'll learn more in the coming weeks.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> apart from writing articles, what have french anarchists and socialist been doing on the ground? Surely something?



any groups which have a base in the communities (if any) involved should be getting stuck in at *all* levels, the rest should (imho) on the one hand offer prisoner support and advice, hold meetings in those working class areas which are not rioting to debate and discuss what is going on - and it's not practical now (they would look completely opportunist) but once things calm down they should go into the areas involved and try and make contacts with people (and strengthen any contacts they make through prisoner/legal solidarity) not to recruit but to discuss whatever the riot participents who are interested want to discuss

for starters


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> well by refusing to cross it i would suggest your offering quietest support to it and for the wider world appearing to show support for a racist piece of shit.
> 
> my da scabbed on the general workers strike cos it was a farce that only further divided the working class and infact only empowered the parasites who milk them dry. Should he stood at the picket line and argued with them? Well he did have his arguments months before the strike and it was clear they weren' for changing. If they wanna lose their jobs over Powell or Paisley fuck'em, if they put race or nation above fellow workers then fuck'em.
> 
> What sort of message would your stance have given to black and asian workers. It basically tells them that even white socialists don't give a fuck about 'em.



isn't that the excuse they used to cross the picket line during the miners strike? Revol the scab - good picket lines & bad picket lines. You decide.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2005)

You sound like an organisationalist to me 
At RNB


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> any groups which have a base in the communities (if any) involved should be getting stuck in at *all* levels, the rest should (imho) on the one hand offer prisoner support and advice, hold meetings in those working class areas which are not rioting to debate and discuss what is going on - and it's not practical now (they would look completely opportunist) but once things calm down they should go into the areas involved and try and make contacts with people (and strengthen any contacts they make through prisoner/legal solidarity) not to recruit but to discuss whatever the riot participents who are interested want to discuss
> 
> for starters


with the french left maybe 3 times the size of the british left, they could really do something. Those are the kind of things that would happen in england and the left here is tiny.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> You sound like an organisationalist to me
> At RNB



er i am


----------



## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Sweet Fuck All, same as in this country... talk a lot and hand out leaflets a bit, but otherwise spectacularly fail to politicise any of the young people involved, and will now resort to petty in-fighting instead.
> 
> It's all blown over now anyway from what I have seen, a week was enough to make a point.
> 
> Now, to rebuild all those evil French capitalist institutions - like the infant schools, gymnasiums, community centres, etc.


And what, pray, do YOU know about the French anarchist movement?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

BAKU9 said:
			
		

> I'd of thought they'd be out n about on the ground as opposed to Revol stylee of peering from behind the barricade of bedroom furniture going "Tut! Tut!".
> 
> I expect we'll learn more in the coming weeks.



if i lived in the area i would think i would be out with them, and hopefully being able to encourage them not to be pelting buses with bricks whilst their neighbours where on them. 

If however I didn't live in the area or know some of the locals i don't think i'd trail my pale ass over there. 

This is why i think we need to examine the more ugly side of the riots cos they are a huge hinderance to the circulation of these struggles, and by themselves they will remain contained and ultimately of no great threat.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> with the french left maybe 3 times the size of the british left, they could really do something. Those are the kind of things that would happen in england and the left here is tiny.



as i said that's just for starters - the problem about getting stuck in tothe actual fighting from outside the area is that you would risk looking like opportunists at best, and possibly being mistaken for police spies or agent provocateurs at worst...if you had a high profile and had already won some respect (say in anti deportation or anti police violence or community campaigns) then you could...i don't know enough about french anarchists to say whether they would be in that position or not


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> isn't that the excuse they used to cross the picket line during the miners strike? Revol the scab - good picket lines & bad picket lines. You decide.



sorry did the miners strike in support of Enoch Powell? Did they fight to maintain orange hegemony?

Don't be a fucking dickhead.

I take it when pickets where set up to exclude jews from workplaces you'd have been there shoulder to shoulder, afterall who are you tom decide whats a good or bad picket?

Another question next time the cops go on strike I take it you'll be offering your support?

 "What do we want? The right to shoot innocent people without recourse? When do we want it? Now!"


----------



## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2005)

BAKU9 said:
			
		

> One is little the other is large (and scrawny). Both gobby as hell in internet world but nothing of the sort in reality. Thank gawd for the internet hey boys.
> 
> http://www.inlineonline.co.uk/images/agressive_skater_cartoon.gif


You mean Revol's like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz?You get this big loud voice, and then when you look behind the computer there's this pathetic, sawn-off little man?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> sorry did the miners strike in support of Enoch Powell? Did they fight to maintain orange hegemony?
> 
> Don't be a fucking dickhead.
> 
> ...



oddly this has been my question to you & the other runt litter over the french rioters. The 'because i say so...' answer only reaches as far as the persistent tourettes.


----------



## General Ludd (Nov 10, 2005)

> I take it when pickets where set up to exclude jews from workplaces you'd have been there shoulder to shoulder, afterall who are you tom decide whats a good or bad picket?


I'd prefer to be in a situation where the workers can determine who can and can't work there, and then argue with them about how that power should be used, than be in a situation where the bosses are in control of who can be employed.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> You mean Revol's like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz?You get this big loud voice, and then when you look behind the computer there's this pathetic, sawn-off little man?



 

we're not in larne any more toto!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> oddly this has been my question to you & the other runt litter over the french rioters. The 'because i say so...' answer only reaches as far as the persistent tourettes.



so you basically went so far in your relativism that you don't it as obvious that anti semitic pickets are not be supported?

the question was rhetorical you fucking muppet!


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so you basically went so far in your relativism that you don't it as obvious that anti semitic pickets are not be supported?
> 
> the question was rhetorical you fucking muppet!



yes but mine wasn't. Hiding behind a flush of tourettes will only keep you afloat for so long. A bit like mr burns wielding a baseball bat.


----------



## Isambard (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> we're not in larne any more toto!



Trust the puff to be able to quote that!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> yes but mine wasn't. Hiding behind a flush of tourettes will only keep you afloat for so long. A bit like mr burns wielding a baseball bat.



okay here's something for you to consider.

Based on my own assesment I have come to the conclusion that supporting (even critically) anti semitic pickets is hugely damaging to the working class, you seem to think i'm wrong, i'm asking you why?

So far you've just posted childish relativism, the kind that would leave even Lyotard shaking his head in disbelief.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> okay here's something for you to consider.
> 
> Based on my own assesment I have come to the conclusion that supporting (even critically) anti semitic pickets is hugely damaging to the working class, you seem to think i'm wrong, i'm asking you why?
> 
> So far you've just posted childish relativism, the kind that would leave even Lyotard shaking his head in disbelief.



is this a quiz question, do i get multiple choice?

Let's see, workers have voted to strike to prevent jews from working at their place of work? Is it a factory or an office? How many are employed there? How long have i been employed there? Have i been working with anti-semitic work colleagues for 25 years or have i just joined the company unaware it had an anti-semitic workforce? Who proposed the strike? Was it balloted? What was the percentage of those wanting to strike?


There's a world of playstation & message boards & bedrooms where you _ma_ & _da_ bring you beans on toast & there's another different world where real people live.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> is this a quiz question, do i get multiple choice?
> 
> Let's see, workers have voted to strike to prevent jews from working at their place of work? Is it a factory or an office? How many are employed there? How long have i been employed there? Have i been working with anti-semitic work colleagues for 25 years or have i just joined the company unaware it had an anti-semitic workforce? Who proposed the strike? Was it balloted? What was the percentage of those wanting to strike?
> 
> ...



oh so true montevideo, so true, I only wish i didn't have to live in the bastarding world where real people live.

The point was that as communists we should not be supporting the pickets, now how that plays out individualyly depends on circumstances, and i wouldn't have a pop at anyone who just took the day off and never went near the picket. But the point was about us as communists refusing to condemn the pickets, which i'm sure we should. Infact i'd be suprised if any socialist publications  refused to criticise the dockers for striking over Powell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> is this a quiz question, do i get multiple choice?
> 
> Let's see, workers have voted to strike to prevent jews from working at their place of work? Is it a factory or an office? How many are employed there? How long have i been employed there? Have i been working with anti-semitic work colleagues for 25 years or have i just joined the company unaware it had an anti-semitic workforce? Who proposed the strike? Was it balloted? What was the percentage of those wanting to strike?
> 
> ...


it's wicked to mock the afflicted.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Infact i'd be suprised if any socialist publications  refused to criticise the dockers for striking over Powell.



oh dear or dear   you've failed to grasp the issue yet again


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> oh dear or dear   you've failed to grasp the issue yet again


revol wasn't even reaching in the right direction.


----------



## Random (Nov 10, 2005)




----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> oh dear or dear   you've failed to grasp the issue yet again



really cos i thought I'd grasped it pretty well.

Basically you were saying that we can't pick and choose what working class struggles to support and I was saying yes we can, and infact must if we are to maintain any sort of coherency.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> really cos i thought I'd grasped it pretty well.
> 
> Basically you were saying that we can't pick and choose what working class struggles to support and I was saying yes we can, and infact must if we are to maintain any sort of coherency.


if that's the case, and that's what you do in practice, how d'you explain yr *in*coherency?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> if that's the case, and that's what you do in practice, how d'you explain yr *in*coherency?



well thats clever, whats your coup de grace going to be?

"Twinkle twinkle little star, what you say is what you are?"


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> well thats clever, whats your coup de grace going to be?
> 
> "Twinkle twinkle little star, what you say is what you are?"


there was no need to prove my point so quickly.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Basically you were saying that we can't pick and choose what working class struggles to support and I was saying yes we can, and infact must if we are to maintain any sort of coherency.



what i think is needed is someone to tell the workers what working class struggles to support, otherwise how on earth are they going to know? You up for the job revol?

This 'we' you talk of, you mean communists like us?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> what i think is needed is someone to tell the workers what working class struggles to support, otherwise how on earth are they going to know? You up for the job revol?
> 
> This 'we' you talk of, you mean communists like us?



yes well i would argue my case, as a working class person surely i have the right to comment on struggles that effect me?

From your argument you either think working class people have no right to criticise the tactics and actions of other working class people, or you see me and yourself as some how distinct from the rest of the class.

thats the problem with relativism it is based on the relativist abstracting themselves above everyone else, like some sort of wanky liberal deity above the petty squabbles of mere mortals.


----------



## Random (Nov 10, 2005)

This argument isn't really about any issue is it, just people letting revol know they dislike his posting style?

For what it's worth, on the general issue of my right to pick and choose struggles I'm with revol, although not sure I'd ever cross any picket line.


----------



## Thora_v1 (Nov 10, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Trust the puff to be able to quote that!


Poof not puff!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

in this age the style is the substance, and i think you'll find i can be nice, but not to arseholes like monty and rednblack who couldn't argue their collective way out of a wet paper bag yet see fit to lay out binary choices.

Of course once the logic of their argument is taken to it's conclusion your left with nothing more than an irrational allegiance to the working class, not as the negation of itself but rather as an end in itself. 



> Worship of the proletariat has become one of the most efficient and dangerous weapons of capital. Most proles are low paid, and a lot work in production, yet their emergence as the proletariat derives not from being low paid producers, but from being "cut off", alienated, with no control either over their lives or the meaning of what they have to do to earn a living.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

> Worship of the proletariat has become one of the most efficient and dangerous weapons of capital. Most proles are low paid, and a lot work in production, yet their emergence as the proletariat derives not from being low paid producers, but from being "cut off", alienated, with no control either over their lives or the meaning of what they have to do to earn a living.



is that a pulp song?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

no Gilles Duave.

who is the mac fucking daddy.


----------



## knopf (Nov 10, 2005)

You're joking right?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> You're joking right?



whose joking?

me or monty?

don't you like ole Duave?


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

my two cents.

Of course there strikes can be reactionary (as Revol mentioned, strikes in defence of a loyalist state, anti-semitic strikes, anti-immigration strikes, strikes aimed at excluding women workers from the workplace). The question is, what do you do. What end do you want and what means to you use to obtain it? fFor instance, in the case of the anti-woman strike, do you want the employer to break the strike (so he can hire women workers at lower wages) or do you want to win male workers over to the idea that they should protect their own working conditions by acting in solidarity with women workers? For me it is the latter, which is why you stay on the picket lines, making arguments, and trying to change the field of struggle. 

So as to the french rioters, as Raw Sllac pointed out, riots are chaotic events, made up of very different elements, good, bad, ugly, neither. But whose interests are served if the army go in and declare military law?Whose interests are served if there is massive repression. Not the interests of the community, but the interests of the state that has for so long abandoned the community. That is why you act in solidarity with the rioters (and not align your self with the state). 

I don't think the bad should be ignored - the means do not justify the end - but we have to be mindful that a) the powers that be always present the half of the story that protects their interests - we do not know what is happening in the suburbs and speculation in a vaccum is particularily useless and b) the commiting of anti-social acts by rioters does not remove responsiblity from the french state.

The death of Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec was a tragedy in my view, I don't think we should ever belittle the loss of human life. But his widow said two things, the first addresses the men who killed her husband, the second the man who created the conditions which caused the riot

a) I  want these people punished, I want people to react - that French people be conscious of all this. That a man died for nothing.
b) [Sarkozy] "lit the fuse with his provocative remarks, It is because of him that Jean-Jacques is dead."


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> my two cents.
> 
> Of course there strikes can be reactionary (as Revol mentioned, strikes in defence of a loyalist state, anti-semitic strikes, anti-immigration strikes, strikes aimed at excluding women workers from the workplace). The question is, what do you do. What end do you want and what means to you use to obtain it? fFor instance, in the case of the anti-woman strike, do you want the employer to break the strike (so he can hire women workers at lower wages) or do you want to win male workers over to the idea that they should protect their own working conditions by acting in solidarity with women workers? For me it is the latter, which is why you stay on the picket lines, making arguments, and trying to change the field of struggle.
> 
> ...



but this just rehashes a false opposition, no one has said they support the army going in, everyones support lies with youth, but some of us wish to understand some of the more unsavoury actions, what they mean, what it does for the recomposition of the class, and whose interests are served by them.

Montevideo has constantly claimed that people people who refuse unconditional support are somehow playing into the hands of the state.


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

Oh so this boils down to the old argument about what is meant by 'support', support vs unconditional support. Personally I found that 'defend' is a much more useful word to use - but isn't this a bit of semantic argument (much better left to late at night when the pub is about to close?)


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> but this just rehashes a false opposition, no one has said they support the army going in, everyones support lies with youth, but some of us wish to understand some of the more unsavoury actions, what they mean, what it does for the recomposition of the class, and whose interests are served by them.
> 
> Montevideo has constantly claimed that people people who refuse unconditional support are somehow playing into the hands of the state.



no he hasn't nor has he expressed any support for the rioters, unconditional or otherwise, nor has he laid out any binary choices.

Are you now saying this is a genuine expression of working class anger?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

so you keep claiming.

so for the last time where the fuck do you stand?

And i have never denied that this an outpouribg of working class anger, of course what you mean by genuine i can't be sure.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so you keep claiming.
> 
> so for the last time where the fuck do you stand?
> 
> And i have never denied that this an outpouribg of working class anger, of course what you mean by genuine i can't be sure.



so you freely admit that i have not expressed support for the rioters, unconditional or otherwise.

What then have you been arguing about in your shrill & demented way for the past 3 pages? 

I'm sure you treat political messageboards like you do grand theft auto. 
I know i do.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> so you freely admit that i have not expressed support for the rioters, unconditional or otherwise.
> 
> What then have you been arguing about in your shrill & demented way for the past 3 pages?
> 
> ...



the argument has been over you asserting that we can't pick and choose between good and bad struggles.


----------



## Random (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> the argument has been over you asserting that we can pick and choose between good and bad struggles.



No, the argument has been over male inability to deal with feelings of insecurity, competition and aggression.


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

It really must be nearly closing time if we're arguing over what we are arguing about. Is anyone going to the bar to get last pints in?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> No, the argument has been over male inability to deal with feelings of insecurity, competition and aggression.



not true at all i'm actually extremely girlish in real life, infact i think i bottle all my masculinity for being a cock on the net.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Nov 10, 2005)

I get the feeling dear sweet little Revol will be bottled as he walks down the street after the pub closes


----------



## Random (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> infact i think i bottle all my masculinity for being a cock on the net.



So we're paying the price for your inadequate coping strategy?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> So we're paying the price for your inadequate coping strategy?



nothing inadequate about it.

I think it's actually a great way of dealing with all the stupid things that piss me off.

anyway you know me online well enough to know that the hyperbolic rhetorical violence is just a post modern critique of the unified sovereign self.


----------



## knopf (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> the hyperbolic rhetorical violence is just a post modern critique of the unified sovereign self.



Cock.


----------



## Sorry. (Nov 10, 2005)

ok, then. We all done here?


----------



## Paul Marsh (Nov 10, 2005)

Time for a report from someone who was on the picket of the embassy?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 10, 2005)

news just in from the frontline: about 8 people turned up, no banner, loadsa tsg, 2 people got nicked (in harrods!!!) for assaulting police. Fuck knows how/what circumstances, would've thought the class war mob would've been out in force?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> news just in from the frontline: about 8 people turned up, no banner, loadsa tsg, 2 people got nicked (in harrods!!!) for assaulting police. Fuck knows how/what circumstances, would've thought the class war mob would've been out in force?



Another victory for the precariat!


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> news just in from the frontline: about 8 people turned up, no banner, loadsa tsg, 2 people got nicked (in harrods!!!) for assaulting police. Fuck knows how/what circumstances, would've thought the class war mob would've been out in force?





Is getting nicked compulsory in anarcho circles?

We await Attica's pronouncement on the significance of these arrests to working class history.

By the way, was one of those arrested in Harrods Thora by any chance?  Maybe she went beserk when an assistant suggested those rainbow DMs didn't suit?


----------



## audiotech (Nov 10, 2005)

Was it a shoplifting spree?


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 10, 2005)

*It was no more than a wankfest*




			
				montevideo said:
			
		

> , loadsa tsg,





tsg?  Abbreviation of tossing?


----------



## Zonk (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> news just in from the frontline: about 8 people turned up, no banner, loadsa tsg, 2 people got nicked (in harrods!!!) for assaulting police. Fuck knows how/what circumstances, would've thought the class war mob would've been out in force?



I heard a turn out of only about 13 and atleast 60 cops with large FIT team.

Apparently it was represented by various orgs. Most CW have jobs these days-this isn't the fucking 80's!   

*Revol2 and a 1/2.*

Let everyone know when you plan to come over next gobshite, people want to cue up and give you a proper welcome.

And get yaself out of the house fer once you pasty little shit.


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## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

Zonk said:
			
		

> I heard a turn out of only about 13 and atleast 60 cops with large FIT team.
> 
> Apparently it was represented by various orgs. Most CW have jobs these days-this isn't the fucking 80's!
> 
> ...



do i know you dipshit?

oh and i'll hardly be running from the might that is the fucking anarcho ghetto.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 10, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Is getting nicked compulsory in anarcho circles?
> 
> We await Attica's pronouncement on the significance of these arrests to working class history.
> 
> By the way, was one of those arrested in Harrods Thora by any chance?  Maybe she went beserk when an assistant suggested those rainbow DMs didn't suit?



You'll be waiting a longtime then Letawank... I wasn't there (I live in a chilly northern outback) so I won't be talking about it as I have no first hand knowledge of the events in question (that's never stopped you chipping in where you aren't welcome though)...

As far as I know though that's the first arrest of demonstrators either b4, during or after an event in Harrods...   (as I said info is thin on the ground)


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> news just in from the frontline: about 8 people turned up, no banner, loadsa tsg, 2 people got nicked (in harrods!!!) for assaulting police. Fuck knows how/what circumstances, would've thought the class war mob would've been out in force?


yr information is inaccurate, unusually. there was a low turnout, admittedly - but 13, rather than 8 - there was a banner, as seen at a recent bonfire night, but it was not unfurled due to the limited size of the area in which the demonstration occurred - there was not the space to stretch it out. there were leaflets (for a pdf see www.londonclasswar.org), and there were people there from several groups as well as some from none. two people were arrested in harrods, where they were - *allegedly* - smacking coppers: tho' the reports i've heard suggest, unsurprisingly, that the opposite occurred. that anyone from that demonstration got into harrods is surprising as that foul store has (certainly had) a dress code of which i've heard of people contravening being refused admission. 

as for the balance of class forces - against the gallant band of 13 demonstrators were pitted approximately 80 tsg & fit, a slight disparity in numbers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> do i know you dipshit?
> 
> oh and i'll hardly be running from the might that is the fucking anarcho ghetto.


i'd imagine that in larne yr little ghetto is extremely, er, snug.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> tsg?  Abbreviation of tossing?


might be...

but more usually territorial support group. i would have thought you'd have known that - it isn't a particularly _arcane_ abbreviation.


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## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i'd imagine that in larne yr little ghetto is extremely, er, snug.



well not so much snug as slightly unsettling.

And thankfully belfast doesn't have an anarcho ghetto as most of us are actually working class.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Was it a shoplifting spree?


sadly not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> well not so much snug as slightly unsettling.
> 
> And thankfully belfast doesn't have an anarcho ghetto as most of us are actually working class.


ghettos aren't always physical places - it seems that you've constructed quite a strong one in yr mind, the bounds of which are clear for all to see.


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## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> As for the balance of class forces - against the gallant band of 13 demonstrators were pitted approximately 80 tsg & fit, a slight disparity in numbers.



jesus, that's just unbelievable. The level of attention you guys get is just amazing. Why does it happen? Is it a divident of the peace process - lots of police with no republicans to watch any more? Are you part of a moral panic? Is it to do with living in a nation at war? I really don't understand it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> jesus, that's just unbelievable. The level of attention you guys get is just amazing. Why does it happen? Is it a divident of the peace process - lots of police with no republicans to watch any more? Are you part of a moral panic? Is it to do with living in a nation at war? I really don't understand it.


no, we had lots of cops to watch us before the peace process too.


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no, we had lots of cops to watch us before the peace process too.



Really, so it hasn't increased in the last couple of years? It's always been that bad?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> Really, so it hasn't increased in the last couple of years? It's always been that bad?


it varies. when there were pickets of the greek embassy a year or so ago, we used to get a few plod, but i think that they went slightly over the top today. but for some reason they can always find them when there's a demo going on - when anti-social behaviour (REAL anti-social behaviour, that is) occurs, they're generally not to be found... i wonder why...


----------



## Random (Nov 10, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> Really, so it hasn't increased in the last couple of years? It's always been that bad?



We used to shut down large chunks of London on a regular basis, so they've taken to crushing us with a heavy hand every time we step out, and so far it's worked


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> We used to shut down large chunks of London on a regular basis, so they've taken to crushing us with a heavy hand every time we step out, and so far it's worked


yeh - but their publick order tacticks are changing with the introduction of their new water cannon, to the old, more mobile tacticks we so knew and loved in the 80s and early 90s.


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## revol68 (Nov 10, 2005)

oh keep having those activist action force memories boys, just keep pluggin away as usual, same ole shit. 

Never know, if you kick it enough.....


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## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> We used to shut down large chunks of London on a regular basis, so they've taken to crushing us with a heavy hand every time we step out, and so far it's worked



it must be a real problem.  It can be difficult to get people to get involved in politically activity anyway - and if the first time you bring someone to a demo they are surrounded by police and face the possiblity of arrest - well it must be hard to bring them back a second time (well, I guess to some people its grist for the mill, but for others it must be intimidating).


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> oh keep having those activist action force memories boys, just keep pluggin away as usual, same ole shit.
> 
> Never know, if you kick it enough.....


the screen will break?


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 10, 2005)

jesus Revol, will you ever stop trolling, I'm trying to have a political discussion here.


----------



## Random (Nov 10, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> jesus Revol, will you ever stop trolling, I'm trying to have a political discussion here.



Yeah, we're not a therapy group for Revol to vent at.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> it must be a real problem.  It can be difficult to get people to get involved in politically activity anyway - and if the first time you bring someone to a demo they are surrounded by police and face the possiblity of arrest - well it must be hard to bring them back a second time (well, I guess to some people its grist for the mill, but for others it must be intimidating).


it is! when people used to go on a>b marches quite a bit in the 90s, i think a lot of people got involved through meeting people a few times; but tho' people do still get involved, i don't think it's at the same rate as before. people going on a>b marches now are unlikely to return to _that_ sort of demonstrating, and the sort of attention anarchist attract on marches means that fewer of them bother going on them.


----------



## ClassWar (Nov 10, 2005)

Well a bakers dozen turned up to picket the French embassy today, to be met by at least 70 TSG and FIT team cops. 

This made doing anything more than handing out a few more leaflets extremely difficult, so it was decided that rather than sit about waiting for the police numbers (and harrasment) to increase, to pay a visit to nearby Harrods, in case any members of the French ruling class were to be found inside. 

This caused panic amongst the police, who seemed to assume criminal intent (entering Harrods is not a criminal offence, although we are sure a few members of the royal family wish it was!) 

Cue more police over kill, two arrests for nothing, and a tactical retreat to a nearby hostelry.

A big thanks from Class War to everyone who turned up.


----------



## Thora_v1 (Nov 10, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> By the way, was one of those arrested in Harrods Thora by any chance?  Maybe she went beserk when an assistant suggested those rainbow DMs didn't suit?


My DMs are black baby, like my nihilist heart


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2005)

they are, i've seen her wearing them.


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> might be...
> 
> but more usually territorial support group. i would have thought you'd have known that - it isn't a particularly _arcane_ abbreviation.





Isn't that the TSG, rather than the tsg?


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 10, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> they are, i've seen her wearing them.





Oh.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 10, 2005)

I wrote a long reply to some of the people on this thread. Then I deleted the entire thing, as with some people it's just not worth engaging with in any way whatsoever.


----------



## BAKU9 (Nov 10, 2005)

I'm presuming CW will be doing follow up actions etc in the weeks to come, what with the threatened mass expulsions and the large amount of convictions?

Hopefully more people will be able to attend.

Well done to all.


----------



## soulman (Nov 11, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> I wrote a long reply to some of the people on this thread. Then I deleted the entire thing, as with some people it's just not worth engaging with in any way whatsoever.



You could send it to Freedom


----------



## Top Dog (Nov 11, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> it must be a real problem.  It can be difficult to get people to get involved in politically activity anyway - and if the first time you bring someone to a demo they are surrounded by police and face the possiblity of arrest - well it must be hard to bring them back a second time (well, I guess to some people its grist for the mill, but for others it must be intimidating).


if only it was just 'action' that was pigged to fuck. POlicital meetings and social events in London still continue to be targetted on a regular basis. As Random says, we're partly a victim of our previous successes... this has been going on really since J18 (where the met police got a public lambasting over their 'failures'), and has intensified if anything post 9-11 with so many new 'threats' to throw money at. 

There was/is an initiative that started in London whereby we were looking at 'counter-FIT' strategies to challenge police harassment... It seems this fizzled out a bit in recent months, i guess as other activities have been taking up people's time over the spring and the summer


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 11, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> There was/is an initiative that started in London whereby we were looking at 'counter-FIT' strategies to challenge police harassment... It seems this fizzled out a bit in recent months, i guess as other activities have been taking up people's time over the spring and the summer



What sort of things were people thinking at doing? The way I see it now, arnarchos are being denied political space and being squeezed out. Perhaps one idea would be to build alliances with more mainstream political forces, build a coalition of opposition (on yer own your too small). I remember thinking after the Texco May Day last year that next time groups would be maybe better doing that sort of event in conjunction with some trade unions (if that was possible). Talking off the top of my head here.


----------



## Top Dog (Nov 11, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> What sort of things were people thinking at doing? The way I see it now, arnarchos are being denied political space and being squeezed out. Perhaps one idea would be to build alliances with more mainstream political forces, build a coalition of opposition (on yer own your too small).


immediately: leafleting the local community where the meeting/social is being held on the day of the meeting (or better still, immediately beforehand) explaining _why_ (in our words) there is such a police presence in the area (community relations angle), making fun of the cops - megaphones mocking them, taking their pictures (countering the intimidation tactic - esp. good when people come along to a meeting for the first time), arranging to arrive at the meeting in groups (and leaving together) so as not to be singled out for following/intimidation, letters of complaint to the met on each occasion they turn out (create collosal admin)

longer term: a database to monitor all events police are targeting, which groups are they hassling, which cops were there, what was said etc. with the aim of taking a legal action against the met. There are quite a number of other ideas also...

Aside from _that_ project there is also the Freedom to Protest initiative which is more along the lines of what you mention - much wider constituency - that took place recently. We await to see what if anything emerges from that.


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 11, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> Aside from _that_ project there is also the Freedom to Protest initiative which is more along the lines of what you mention - much wider constituency - that took place recently. We await to see what if anything emerges from that.



Was that the meeting that was held the Sunday after the bookfair? Did you go or hear any reports?


----------



## Top Dog (Nov 11, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> Was that the meeting that was held the Sunday after the bookfair? Did you go or hear any reports?


Yeah i went along to the early part of it. Probably around 200 odd people over the day. Here's a report from schNews on it http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news518.htm


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 11, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> Yeah i went along to the early part of it. Probably around 200 odd people over the day. Here's a report from schNews on it http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news518.htm




ta


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Yeah, we're not a therapy group for Revol to vent at.


i have a plan:

diagram here


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> And what, pray, do YOU know about the French anarchist movement?



I know enough about the "boer" conducting the rioting to know that they would listen to the immam, but never to those such as yourself who would support measures to eradicate all forms of organised religion, if of course you go along with the recognised anarchist principles.

Much like New Orleans - religion has far more influence than anarchist thought - there was no predicted class war there and there isn't one in Paris - just a bunch of marginalised kids.

Besides - I think the petty sniping in this thread proves my point more than adequately here.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> who would support measures to eradicate all forms of organised religion, if of course you go along with the recognised anarchist principles.


Yep. There would be a law against all religion and if you broke it we'd send out the Anarchist Police and put you in Anarchist Jail.

geniuschild


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Yep. There would be a law against all religion and if you broke it we'd send out the Anarchist Police and put you in Anarchist Jail.
> 
> geniuschild



You seem to have forgotten the plight of the Spanish priests and churches during the anarchist uprising.

Or maybe you're still trying to find your anarcho-feet.

Either way - ask any anarchist to explain his position on religion, or the position of his chosen faction, and you will see right there one of the major reasons why their involvement in anything is limited to a few militants and a load of navel gazing as to why they keep failing to motivate people.

For example:

Aims and Principles of the Anarchist federation 

*10. We oppose organised religion and beliefs. ******************* 

http://www.af-north.org/principles.htm

Yet still many anarchists presume to have a possibility of influencing French rioters who are mainly from Islamic backgrounds, or perhaps disenfranchised black people in New Orleans who are often devout Christians.

Yeah, good luck with that.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> You seem to have forgotten the plight of the Spanish priests and churches during the anarchist uprising.
> 
> Or maybe you're still trying to find your anarcho-feet.
> 
> ...



do you really think most of those kids in Paris give too flying fucks about Allah?


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> do you really think most of those kids in Paris give too flying fucks about Allah?



Of course they do its an islamic conspiracy, i always kiss my picture of the pope before i commit some property destruction.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> You seem to have forgotten the plight of the Spanish priests and churches during the anarchist uprising.
> 
> Or maybe you're still trying to find your anarcho-feet.


 yes i am actually 

1) Its spelt pigeon

2) no i had not forgotten the priests and i wondered if you might say something like that. I'm not disputing anarchism opposes *organised* religion, i was mocking your idea that anarchists would 'take measures' to eradicate all religion which is clearly bollocks.

The spanish church is the catholic church, an international body that supports hierarchy, class, elitism, sexism and homophobia - and although that is not explicit now it certainly was then. The church in spain was also an integral part of the fascist dictatorship, and keeps close ties with the far right today.

They were not attacked due to their beliefs but their actions. 

I worked with people in religious parties in Palestine and i can tell you that anarchists and religious nutjobs can work fine together with a common cause: i don't suppose they much cared that i had a girlfriend out of wedlock, drank alchohol, was gay, was a drug user, may sometimes walk topless in public - they might have thought all these things, but i was there to help not fuck their daughters. Similarly i didn't really care that they believed in an invisible force that ran the worldn and knew everything - they'd clearly worked out that getting rid of the occupation was up to them not Allah, so that was fine for me.

Its the same in paris: some issues are bigger than personal beliefs.

The current day Catholic Worker organisation is pretty much anarchist, or associates itself with anarchism more than any other political movement.






        You can find themhere


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> do you really think most of those kids in Paris give too flying f***s about Allah?



What - you really think they don't?

Maybe they just need to become card-carrying anarchists, forget all that mosque stuff... dye their sisters' hijab black and wear it as a facemask... of course.

A simple solution to everything, isn't there, when you're a believer in Utopia.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

Read my post you toy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> You seem to have forgotten the plight of the Spanish priests and churches during the anarchist uprising.


they got what they so richly deserved.


----------



## Random (Nov 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> they got what they so richly deserved.



Apart from the priests and nuns that opposed Franco and were later executed in their droves by God's chosen army.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> Apart from the priests and nuns that opposed Franco and were later executed in their droves by God's chosen army.


yeh, obviously.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Who are you calling a "toy" little boy?

What this "Catholic Worker muppet" stuff about?

And what is YOUR view on religion, seeing as you see yourself as becoming an anarchist when you grow up?

And Pickmans Model - how did 1,215 monks, nuns, and priests in the province of Barcelona alone deserve to be massacred??


----------



## revol68 (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> What - you really think they don't?
> 
> Maybe they just need to become card-carrying anarchists, forget all that mosque stuff... dye their sisters' hijab black and wear it as a facemask... of course.
> 
> A simple solution to everything, isn't there, when you're a believer in Utopia.



you daft cunt, every one fo the rioters ahs said it's caused they are treated like shit, cos they wanna hit back, that France hates them and they hate france, they don't feel algerian either, they are in the words of one of them nothing.

In the words of another "france  is stamping their face into the shit".

These kids feel no belief in anything they know the Imans are useless. Some of them might believe in god in a very vague way but their lifestyles are very secular, they share a culture more in tune with NWA than Nation of Islam.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 11, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Yep. There would be a law against all religion and if you broke it we'd send out the Anarchist Police and put you in Anarchist Jail.
> 
> geniuschild



that can only happen when the anarchist party gets elected though unfortunately...


----------



## revol68 (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Who are you calling a "toy" little boy?
> 
> What this "Catholic Worker muppet" stuff about?
> 
> ...



for being facist lil fuckers, for informing on union members, for teaching ignorance for thousands of years, let the fuckers die sure won't they go to heaven?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

i'm calling you a toy, cos you are son.

Glad to clear that up


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> you daft cunt, every one fo the rioters ahs said it's caused they are treated like shit, cos they wanna hit back, that France hates them and they hate france, they don't feel algerian either, they are in the words of one of them nothing.
> 
> In the words of another "france  is stamping their face into the shit".
> 
> These kids feel no belief in anything they know the Imans are useless. Some of them might believe in god in a very vague way but their lifestyles are very secular, they share a culture more in tune with NWA than Nation of Islam.



Then you clearly have no idea of who the "boer" really are.

Have you ever actually been to Paris? 

Or Marseilles, where the issue is perhaps even more serious, potentially?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> These kids feel no belief in anything








There are branches of Herbert Read ourside yorkshire


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i'm calling you a toy, cos you are son.
> 
> Glad to clear that up



Are you mad? You're just a little kid, though I'm intrigued by your "Catholic Worker muppet" thing... were you talking to someone else?

I have a feeling you're just another public schoolboy playing with political symbols... prove me wrong, give me your own opinions on religion.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Then you clearly have no idea of who the "boer" really are.
> 
> Have you ever actually been to Paris?
> 
> Or Marseilles, where the issue is perhaps even more serious, potentially?



well actually a friend of mine grew up in the shitty suburbs, and she says religion really has fuck all to do with it. 

Plus you only have to look at the hip hop culture that has permeated those areas to know they aren't rocking the fucking koran too much.

And if it was religious how come the kids haven't listen to the fatwa put out about the rioting?

Also alot of the youth aren't even fucking muslim, are they fighting for allah too?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> you daft cunt, every one fo the rioters ahs said it's caused they are treated like shit, cos they wanna hit back, that France hates them and they hate france, they don't feel algerian either, they are in the words of one of them nothing.
> 
> In the words of another "france  is stamping their face into the shit".
> 
> These kids feel no belief in anything they know the Imans are useless. Some of them might believe in god in a very vague way but their lifestyles are very secular, they share a culture more in tune with NWA than Nation of Islam.


i disagree - you can't presuppose their religious beliefs, but its unimportant anyway - religion is clearly not their motivation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> And Pickmans Model - how did 1,215 monks, nuns, and priests in the province of Barcelona alone deserve to be massacred??


how?

my preference is usually for the wheel. but with such a large number it would have taken too long. do we hang 'em or do we shoot 'em - that's usually the question. or the knife. iirc the locals came down on the side of shooting in many cases, which is by no means perfect but it does the job.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> for being facist lil f*****s, for informing on union members, for teaching ignorance for thousands of years, let the f*****s die sure won't they go to heaven?



And this comment proves quite adequately why anarchism is far from the freedom from totalitarianism we all are so desperate to believe can be overthrown - anarchism is sadly just another form of totalitarianism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> And this comment proves quite adequately why anarchism is far from the freedom from totalitarianism we all are so desperate to believe can be overthrown - anarchism is sadly just another form of totalitarianism.


where's this totalitarianism you claim to oppose?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Are you mad? You're just a little kid, though I'm intrigued by your "Catholic Worker muppet" thing... were you talking to someone else?
> 
> I have a feeling you're just another public schoolboy playing with political symbols... prove me wrong, give me your own opinions on religion.


Indeed squire. I shall waste no more of your time 

My opinion? if you want to believe in something you can. If you hurt people whilst doing it you cant. If your institution recruits and takes peoples money from them, then you will be dealt with by Anarchist Law no. 23 b, and i shall call the Anarchist Police to send you to Anarchist Jail.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> how?
> 
> my preference is usually for the wheel. but with such a large number it would have taken too long. do we hang 'em or do we shoot 'em - that's usually the question. or the knife. iirc the locals came down on the side of shooting in many cases, which is by no means perfect but it does the job.



So who gets to kill the religious members of *your* family?

Your parents, or your friends parents?

Not forgetting the infrastructure in the third world that aid organisations and development agencies linked to the church use to deliver much needed resources.

Haven't thought this through, this "wipe out all religion" lark, have you mate?


----------



## Random (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> And this comment proves quite adequately why anarchism is far from the freedom from totalitarianism we all are so desperate to believe can be overthrown - anarchism is sadly just another form of totalitarianism.



lol, you clearly know dick all about the history of Spain.  Most of the people who killed priests and rightists in the early days of the Spanish revolution were ordinary peasants fed up of being forced to pay for a bloated religious class.

Anarchists, in fact, were often found trying to argue against the killings.


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 11, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Indeed squire. I shall waste no more of your time
> 
> My opinion? if you want to believe in something you can. If you hurt people whilst doing it you cant. If your institution recruits and takes peoples money from them, then you will be dealt with by Anarchist Law no. 23 b, and i shall call the Anarchist Police to send you to Anarchist Jail.



failing that ill send in my deaths head chaos punks


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> So who gets to kill the religious members of *your* family?




there are no religious members of my family.


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> there are no religious members of my family.



you kill mine and ill do yours then we can piss on the graves


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Haven't thought this through, this "wipe out all religion" lark, have you mate?


no, only the broad outlines. i'll leave the details to nearer the time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> you kill mine and ill do yours then we can piss on the graves


fair exchange no robbery!


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

this never works but i'll try anyway:

A poster here is clearly misinformed. They are not listening. We are wasting our time. Its sad that we bother. Can we stop now?


----------



## Sorry. (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> So who gets to kill the religious members of *your* family?
> 
> Your parents, or your friends parents?
> 
> ...



He's clearly a lot more thoughtful than yourself, who is apparently incapable of noticing the difference between attacking the catholic church as an organisation overtly supporting fascism, and the mass eradication of religious people and beliefs.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Indeed squire. I shall waste no more of your time
> 
> My opinion? if you want to believe in something you can. If you hurt people whilst doing it you cant. If your institution recruits and takes peoples money from them, then you will be dealt with by Anarchist Law no. 23 b, and i shall call the Anarchist Police to send you to Anarchist Jail.



And your anarchist institution will be taking land and property from what it sees as the upper classes, and almost certainly wounding and murdering people in the process.

Just like they did in Spain.

Almost as bad as facism, or communism, on the face of it.

Still - it's your belief. I respect the fact that you have your beliefs, even if you oppose the beliefs of others.

Of course - anarchist ideology could be considered to be a form of organised religion to some...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Almost as bad as facism,


and not quite as bad as fascism?


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Sorry. said:
			
		

> He's clearly a lot more thoughtful than yourself, who is apparently incapable of noticing the difference between attacking the catholic church as an organisation overtly supporting fascism, and the mass eradication of religious people and beliefs.



Read your history books - they didn't just torch a few churches.

Revisionism is also a common anarchist trait, I almost forgot.

Anyway - I'll leave you all to it.

Clearly you don't like having your core beliefs challenged - and you've reacted just as I thought you would - like a Muslim who just got told Allah doesn't exist and that maybe he should join the anarchists instead of all that praying lark.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Of course - anarchist ideology could be considered to be a form of organised religion to some...


like? name names!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Revisionism is also a common anarchist trait, I almost forgot.


only among student anarchists, and then only at certain times of the year.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> only among student anarchists, and then only at certain times of the year.


----------



## Sorry. (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Read your history books - they didn't just torch a few churches.



Some anarchists murdered some priests. Some of them were justified, others not. I'm still an anarchist, and I still don't murder priests. Go figure. 



> Revisionism is also a common anarchist trait, I almost forgot.



Says him trying to pretend their was a mass anti-Catholic pogrom, rather than Civil War, in 1936. 



> Clearly you don't like having your core beliefs challenged - and you've reacted just as I thought you would - like a Muslim who just got told Allah doesn't exist and that maybe he should join the anarchists instead of all that praying lark.



Oh gosh, please don't question my core beliefs with your searing critique


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Nov 11, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> There are branches of Herbert Read ourside yorkshire



Surely not the beginning of a provisonal Herbert Read International.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 11, 2005)

well brussels and berlin - looks like it!

What are your opinions on prison chuck?


----------



## lostexpectation (Nov 11, 2005)

*jesus fucking christ*

Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered the expulsion of all foreigners convicted of taking part in the riots that have swept France for 13 nights. He told parliament 120 foreigners had been found guilty of involvement and would be deported without delay. ???? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4422422.stm

He's having a bloody field day.

apab


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

lostexpectation said:
			
		

> Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered the expulsion of all foreigners convicted of taking part in the riots that have swept France for 13 nights. He told parliament 120 foreigners had been found guilty of involvement and would be deported without delay. ???? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4422422.stm
> 
> He's having a bloody field day.
> 
> apab


old news.


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Nov 11, 2005)

ClassWar said:
			
		

> Over 300 French towns and cities have now seen riots against the police and the government. More will follow.
> 
> Youth in cities as far as Brussels and Berlin have shown their support - it is time we did the same.
> 
> ...



Why support these nutters that go round attacking working class  homes and cars?.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:
			
		

> Why support these nutters that go round attacking working class  homes and cars?.


which nutters?

the french government? why indeed?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> which nutters?
> 
> the french government? why indeed?



the crs?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

Cumbrian Dragon?


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

These nutters are known in France as the "boer".

None of them ever have or ever will have anything to do with anarchism, mainly because they are from religious communities.

Also I guess they're used to trading one oppressive regime with another, and don't want to repeat the mistake.




			
				Sorry said:
			
		

> Some anarchists murdered some priests. Some of them were justified, others not. I'm still an anarchist, and I still don't murder priests. Go figure.



In the laughably unlikely event of an anarchist revolution, when you are opposed by the priests and the immams and the nuns and the bhuddists and the monks, as well as 99 percent of the remaining population - well, you'll have to murder a few people in order to take power, surely?

Not contemplated offing a few toffs, should they stand between you and their castle?

Whatever happened to "eat the rich"?

As much as the systems that keep people poor must change, and resistance to globalisation is of fundamental importance, and oppressive Western governments must be opposed, unfair trade subsidies starving the developing world - I don't really think anarchism is doing anything worth noting to motivate people into joining them.

And it's a point of fact, ironically, that it's the Christian development agencies, and the Make Poverty History lot, with their huge public awareness and effective partnerships with many other agencies, who are making far more progress in terms of tipping the balance of global empowerment towards those who need it most.

I just think, in all honesty, it is the anarchists refusal to accept religion as anything other than a system of mind control which is its greatest failure.

That and all the infighting and arguing over petty points of principle.

Anarchism will always be limited to the athiest, in that respect, which thereby denies it the wealth of social networks and community relations it so desperately needs, if it is to be taken seriously.

But if you genuinely do help the more vulnerable in your respective communities, in a constructive way, then more power to you, seriously.

I just think it's a shame such an irrelevant issue - i.e. someone's belief in a God or whatever - should be automatically put down by the principles of anarchism in the way it is.

Is it really only the Godless people who think they can lead this world into a new age?

Maybe a new thread topic. Who knows? Who cares?

Most of you will have read this far and ignored the valid points in favour of trying to land some insults - but you'll be having the same secular arguments you have now in five years time, and nothing will have changed for you.

A prospect I would find somewhat depressing if I were involved in promoting anarchist thought.


----------



## catch (Nov 11, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> you daft cunt, every one fo the rioters ahs said it's caused they are treated like shit, cos they wanna hit back, that France hates them and they hate france, they don't feel algerian either, they are in the words of one of them nothing.
> 
> In the words of another "france  is stamping their face into the shit".
> 
> These kids feel no belief in anything they know the Imans are useless. Some of them might believe in god in a very vague way but their lifestyles are very secular, they share a culture more in tune with NWA than Nation of Islam.



I work with  a lot of Muslim students in Hackney - asked them what they thought all the rioting was about - "racism, no money, no services, don't want to be discriminated against, want job" - no mention of Islam at all.
Do you think everyone who goes to church for weddings and funerals is Christian as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Also I guess they're used to trading one oppressive regime with another, and don't want to repeat the mistake.


are you thick or something?

the vast majority of the people who have been rioting are FRENCH, born in FRANCE. but, no, for you, by the sounds of things, they're IMMIGRANTS, doubtless because of the colour of their skin. didn't have to scratch very hard to find some unpleasant undercurrents in yr thought.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 11, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> are you thick or something?
> 
> the vast majority of the people who have been rioting are FRENCH, born in FRANCE. but, no, for you, by the sounds of things, they're IMMIGRANTS, doubtless because of the colour of their skin. didn't have to scratch very hard to find some unpleasant undercurrents in yr thought.



I think you understood my point very well indeed, and trying to pin some kind of racist issue on me is a little sad, don't you think?

After all, I have clearly had more association with the boer than you have.

The "vast majority" were NOT born in France, a great many of them were born in North Africa. I would estimate around half were born outside France.

In your world, does merely mentioning Africa really make me a racist?

Because, and please check my posts, I don't recall using the word immigrant, nor did I refer to the colour of anyone's skin.

Are you sure you want to continue this line of questioning?

Because I assure you, you will find no evidence of racism here.

Perhaps you're just mad because you know I'm right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> I think you understood my point very well indeed, and trying to pin some kind of racist issue on me is a little sad, don't you think?
> 
> After all, I have clearly had more association with the boer than you have.
> 
> ...


where do you get your figures from? because i think they're bollocks. and just what did you mean by 





> they're used to trading one oppressive regime with another,


?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Because, and please check my posts, I don't recall using the word immigrant, nor did I refer to the colour of anyone's skin.


i never said you did say immigrant. it was very fucking clear what you meant, that the vast majority of those rioting were immigrants: which is just what has been pushed by the bbc, among others. now you say that half of the people rioting were immigrants - are the other half, then, used to changing one oppressive regime for another?


----------



## sihhi (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> I would estimate around half were born outside France.


  
What d'you base this on?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> What d'you base this on?


guesswork from the ouija board.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead

i don't see how you can argue i've got the wrong end of the stick. to my mind there's no other complexion to y'r post than the one i put on it. it's perfectly clear what you meant - more's the pity - as many of y'r other posts have been thought-provoking in a banal sort of way.


----------



## Sorry. (Nov 11, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> None of them ever have or ever will have anything to do with anarchism, mainly because they are from religious communities. etc.



I'll only quote this bit, because the rest was mostly repetition.

As an anarchist, I am happy to organise with the religious, and in fact have done in the past. Most anarchists I know would also be happy to organise with the religious. 

I hope this clears up any confusion/ignorance on your part, and you can go on to a productive member of this electronic community, without making further asinine remarks. 

Thankyou.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 12, 2005)

pickmans pls pls don't bother, the fact that we do reflects badly on us 
If a tory comes on line and has genuine questions, if a nazi comes on line even - but twats that think they know it all already and keep repeating themselves are not worth the bother


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2005)

i won't, then.


----------



## undesirable (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:that the vast majority of those rioting were immigrants: which is just what has been pushed by the bbc, among others.Quote

Nah it appears that most news channels have gone as far as to say that the rioters are all muslims, and not just your average muslim but muslim extremists!! This is pretty audacious. I dont doubt that muslims were involved in the rioting but its not someones faith which dictates whether they rioted or not but rather the conditions of their existence. If theres a riot in Italy is it a Catholic riot, instigated by catholic fanatics?! Ive never gone for the whole 'its a war on islam' thing, and still dont as its foundationless tripe, but some of the stuff thats been reported on these riots, particularly newsnight has been absolutely, unbelievable bollocks.


----------



## Clintons Cat (Nov 12, 2005)

Random said:
			
		

> If the rioting continues, and the French army is sent in, I've no doubt that people will be shot, and that those arrested will be tortured and banged up for lengthy sentences.  I think that a picket of the French embassy is a very good way to show that the eyes of the world are on France.
> 
> Remember what happened to an earlier generation of Algerian protestors during the 1950/60s in France?  Beaten, tortured and disappeared.  A peaceful protest is one way we can try to stop the French state doing this again.



yeah,i was kind of puzzled that given the interior ministers comments seem to harken back to that period,that there has been little mention of that in the press,most of the commentators have been ignoring that murky part of frances past altogether,prefering instead to make superficial comparisons and contrasts between british style multi-cultralism and french style notations of egalitarianism.

How one can draw meaningful comparisons between the two political systems/ideologies w/r race relations without examining the practical implementation of those policies and an examination of how in 1961 the police,government,judiciary and media conspired to prevent those responsible for being held to account for their actions is beyond me.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 12, 2005)

*Still continuing*

Lyon Saturday early evening




> Police fired tear gas at rioters who were throwing rocks and bins. The *rioting began in the Place Bellecour where riot police had gathered to prevent exactly this kind of disturbance*.



http://www.dehavilland.co.uk/webhos...D=15089225&ServiceID=8&filterid=10&searchid=8


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2005)

Does everyone know that this PH is PK? I've been away for the week and may have missed this.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 12, 2005)

Place Bellecour is the historic tourist centre of Lyon.
http://www.virtourist.com/europe/lyon/25.htm



> French security forces fired tear gas to disperse youths in Lyon on Saturday in the first sign of unrest in a city centre after more than two weeks of civil disturbances in outlying suburbs of towns and cities.
> 
> *Ten people were arrested in France's second city * after 50 youths attacked stalls and damaged vehicles, police and witnesses said, adding that the situation later calmed down.
> 
> After violence rose slightly on Friday, the 16th night of clashes, regional authorities for the first time declared a curfew for minors in Lyon, a city of 1.2 million southeast of Paris.


http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/new...7Z_01_YUE042397_RTRUKOC_0_UK-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2005)

Keep 'em coming please sihhi (or any other posters who spot anything of interest).


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 12, 2005)

> Riots have broken out in Lyon as protestors clash with the police in the city centre after a curfew was introduced.


Hmm, the implication here seems a lot more overtly political.  Does anybody know if events in Lyon were called by any particular political group?


----------



## soulman (Nov 12, 2005)

Probably old news for some but the renacted 'state of emergency' law was used to ban all public meetings in the Paris area tonight.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 12, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Keep 'em coming please sihhi (or any other posters who spot anything of interest).



My mostly self-taught (ie not very good) French tells me that there's some kind of police work-to-rule in Seine-Saint-Denis (a region of Paris) called by police trade union "Allaince 93" in protest against the fact that 5 of their number were suspended for their actions on 7th November in the La Corneuve estate-suburb.

http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/societe/20051112.OBS4954.html


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 13, 2005)

Sorry. said:
			
		

> As an anarchist, I am happy to organise with the religious, and in fact have done in the past. Most anarchists I know would also be happy to organise with the religious.



Except the ones who oppose religion.

Or do they just hide the fact that they oppose the people they're trying to organise?

Not that these riots are motivated by religion, but the fact that anarchists seem desperate to stick their black and red flags over anything that appears to be public disorder should set alarm bells ringing among the people actually doing the rioting.

The last thing these kids want is a little bunch of supposedly working class cyber-anarchist dreamers trying to hijack their cause, I'd imagine!


----------



## General Ludd (Nov 13, 2005)

> Except the ones who oppose religion.


It's quite possible to work with people with whom you don't agree completely on everything.


----------



## lostexpectation (Nov 13, 2005)

*Sarkozy heckled*

Sarkozy was booed, heckled and near jostled as he inspected police barricades in central Paris

I coudln't find anynews reports apart from " a woman heckled him telling him to resign".

They've placed parents of pre-teens arrested on watch and sent them on parenting courses.

http://translate.google.com/transla...fe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools
Tf1 is a half decent place to view one source of many.


There must be more attampts to quell the disturbances by non-police anyone got stories on them.


----------



## 888 (Nov 13, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Does everyone know that this PH is PK? I've been away for the week and may have missed this.



Really? He seems slightly too intelligent for PK, though I note the same weird hysteria against anarchists.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 13, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


You have earned yourself a place back on ignore my dove!
Pickmans, and everyone else making decent arguments against this big silly - i suggest you do the same


----------



## rednblack (Nov 13, 2005)

888 said:
			
		

> Really? He seems slightly too intelligent for PK, though I note the same weird hysteria against anarchists.



typical cowardice on his part though


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 13, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Except the ones who oppose religion.
> 
> Or do they just hide the fact that they oppose the people they're trying to organise?


Opposing an idea and opposing the person holding that idea are two completely different things.  Though I suspect you already knew that.

Similarly, seeking to organise _with_ somebody and act in solidarity with them is completely different from trying to organise them as though they're some passive tool to be manipulated into fulfilling ones own ends.


----------



## soulman (Nov 13, 2005)

Press release from the Mouvement Immigrante de Banlieues (MIB) - http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3807904#post3807904


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 13, 2005)

On a side note, I can't see any reference to the actual event referred to in the OP after it actually happened, how did it go?


----------



## JHE (Nov 13, 2005)

There were a few reports earlier.  See, for example, posts 358 and 366.

It seems it was a bit of a non-event, with only about a dozen people turning up to show their solidarity with the rioters in France.  They were met by a  larger number of plod.

I'm glad they didn't burn any schools, clinics, workers' cars or people.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

those as herbert would say, it would have been 'more interesting' if they had.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

JHE said:
			
		

> I'm glad they didn't burn any schools, clinics, workers' cars or people.




just as a matter of interest several people have emphasised buring workers cars is _a bad thing._ I'm assuming from this burning rich peoples/bosses cars would be an valid form of riot expression?


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> just as a matter of interest several people have emphasised buring workers cars is _a bad thing._ I'm assuming from this burning rich peoples/bosses cars would be an valid form of riot expression?



Burning all cars is a good thing, anti civ  

Increased use of and wareness of public transport


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> those as herbert would say, it would have been 'more interesting' if they had.




met up for a chin wag & coffee wherewere the molotovs 

It could have been beautiful, in Greece anarchists have attacked various french institutions in solidarity. 

I myself threw a rock at the window of deli-france in Leeds, it bounced off no one was injured.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> I work with  a lot of Muslim students in Hackney - asked them what they thought all the rioting was about - "racism, no money, no services, don't want to be discriminated against, want job" - no mention of Islam at all.
> Do you think everyone who goes to church for weddings and funerals is Christian as well?



why are you asking me that?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

he isn't.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> Burning all cars is a good thing, anti civ
> 
> Increased use of and wareness of public transport



i take it back you daft primmo cunt, i don't like you!

and monty obviously there is a difference between burning rich peoples cars and working class peoples, unfortunately there aren't too many Merc's
 in those kids areas and they seem to have took to burning anything with wheels.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> met up for a chin wag & coffee wherewere the molotovs
> 
> It could have been beautiful, in Greece anarchists have attacked various french institutions in solidarity.
> 
> I myself threw a rock at the window of deli-france in Leeds, it bounced off no one was injured.


i brutally demolished a croissant the other day. I did it for the french working class. I also attacked the capitalists of denmark on the same action, before the petty-bourgoise lapdog security gaurd said if i hadn't paid for them, i had to leave the bakery section. He obviously knew which side class war he was on


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> i take it back you daft primmo cunt, i don't like you!
> 
> and monty obviously there is a difference between burning rich peoples cars and working class peoples, unfortunately there aren't too many Merc's
> in those kids areas and they seem to have took to burning anything with wheels.



What primmo, im taking the piss 

Thora will laugh i my knew primmo pariah status


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> and monty obviously there is a difference between burning rich peoples cars and working class peoples, unfortunately there aren't too many Merc's
> in those kids areas and they seem to have took to burning anything with wheels.



And what's your point? Of course some rioters might do some anti-social things, that generally happens in riots. But the root cause of this is anger against poverty and racism. It might not fit the criteria of what is acceptable in the cosy lives of people like Icepick, but I doubt they give a fuck.

It makes me laugh that people on here mock people who say they support struggles they can't influence yet simultaneously feel comfortable making armchair judgements about the people rioting in France.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> What primmo


This primmo!


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> It makes me laugh that people on here mock people who say they support struggles they can't influence yet simultaneously feel comfortable making armchair judgements about the people rioting in France.



keep it up!


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> This primmo!



  Ilike the way a tutle turns into a house and eggs an oil well factory thingy.

I fucking love heavy industry.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> This primmo!



that video is well smart  i genuinely like it


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

seriously the  logic of those who refuse to offer 100% solidarity with the rioters on the basis that the riots are bad for some working class people are extremely dangerous, the fact is pretty much every action working class people take to defend ourselves who fight for better conditions can harm members of our class - if a wildcat strike fails, and extremely common occurance it can lead to horrific consequences to working class people - does that mean we shouldnt support wildcat strikes?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> And what's your point? Of course some rioters might do some anti-social things, that generally happens in riots. But the root cause of this is anger against poverty and racism. It might not fit the criteria of what is acceptable in the cosy lives of people like Icepick, but I doubt they give a fuck.
> 
> It makes me laugh that people on here mock people who say they support struggles they can't influence yet simultaneously feel comfortable making armchair judgements about the people rioting in France.



no one has denied the anger behind the riots is justified and fuck i'm not even that too bothered about cars, thats going to happen in a riot, what i am concerned about is how the anti social actions ie attacking nurseries and hospitals will limit the ability of these struggles to break out of the ghettoes and involve the wider working class. 

It's not about moralising ala the daily mail it's about come to terms with divisions and conflicts within the working class.


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 14, 2005)

What about the w/c people self organising to defend schools, community centres, nurseries etc. against the rioters?  I think that's one of the most important things coming out of this - just blindly 'supporting the rioters' is gonna give one a slightly refracted perspective on this.

Altho to be honest I don't know too much on this, just snippets here and there - anyone seen much substantial on this?


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> no one has denied the anger behind the riots is justified and fuck i'm not even that too bothered about cars, thats going to happen in a riot, what i am concerned about is how the anti social actions ie attacking nurseries and hospitals will limit the ability of these struggles to break out of the ghettoes and involve the wider working class.
> 
> It's not about moralising ala the daily mail it's about come to terms with divisions and conflicts within the working class.



You mean how do we get from riot to insurrection, from mindless violence, to political targettted violence.  

If i knew id be doing it


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> What about the w/c people self organising to defend schools, community centres, nurseries etc. against the rioters?  I think that's one of the most important things coming out of this - just blindly 'supporting the rioters' is gonna give one a slightly refracted perspective on this.
> 
> Altho to be honest I don't know too much on this, just snippets here and there - anyone seen much substantial on this?



should the w/c defend institutions in the interest of the state againt people who are expressing disatisfication with govt


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> should the w/c defend institutions in the interest of the state againt people who are expressing disatisfication with govt




what a ridiculous statement, i take it you think that peoples council houses should also be targetted.

Man the state is not some sort of homogenous matter of capitalist eveil, the working class has foisted soical roles onto the state through it's own struggles.

I take it you think struggles against privitisation are statist too?


----------



## Herbert Read (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> what a ridiculous statement, i take it you think that peoples council houses should also be targetted.
> 
> Man the state is not some sort of homogenous matter of capitalist eveil, the working class has foisted soical roles onto the state through it's own struggles.
> 
> I take it you think struggles against privitisation are statist too?



I dont believe in reforming or creating in institutions within the current framework, im a nihilist  

We can only build once we have destryed everything under capatalism.

So you are advocating that the w/c defend state institutions against other sections of the w/c


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> no one has denied the anger behind the riots is justified and fuck i'm not even that too bothered about cars, thats going to happen in a riot, what i am concerned about is how the anti social actions ie attacking nurseries and hospitals will limit the ability of these struggles to break out of the ghettoes and involve the wider working class.



It might be that the actions of some of the rioters are fruitless and I agree that attempts to bring in the wider organised working class need to be made. Who would deny that?

But the thing that should stressed before all else is that this is the result of decades of unemployment, racism and poverty. The blame for these riots, and any anti-social actions, must lie at the feet of the French state.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

It’s the tone of some people’s posts. For instance Icepick, working class salt of the earth warrior that he is says:



> While the concerns are legitimate - lots of the rioters are burning their fellow workers' cars, destroying public resources and attacking their fellow workers.



And



> Around 1,000 kids from the banlieus attacked a demonstration of working class students for education reform, beating and mugging hundreds of them


 (someone subsequently pointed out that this actually happened in March!)

His first post attacks the rioters more than the French state.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> His first post attacks the rioters more than the French state.


quelle surprise!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> It might be that the actions of some of the rioters are fruitless and I agree that attempts to bring in the wider organised working class need to be made. Who would deny that?
> 
> But the thing that should stressed before all else is that this is the result of decades of unemployment, racism and poverty. The blame for these riots, and any anti-social actions, must lie at the feet of the French state.



this is Urban75 most people on it are pretty lefty, no one denies where the overall problem lies, fuck even the mainstream media have been very sympathetic in that sense. What i'm interested in though is how these riots could lead to something more, that they could move beyond just anger and violence, I want to try and graps what these riots mean for the working class as a whole, does it further stratify the class? Does it have the ability to mature into a struggle that can act as an actual catalyst for the rest of the class.

Why should people who claim tobe serious about communism merely ape liberal comment. 

I'm not interested in whose to blame for the riots, i'm interested in what the actual riots mean.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2005)

you've shown precious little evidence of that so far, with yr reactionary comments.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> you've shown precious little evidence of that so far, with yr reactionary comments.



what reactionary comments you knee jerk leftist wind bag?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> what reactionary comments you knee jerk leftist wind bag?


just the ones you've submitted to the test of publick opinion on this site.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> just the ones you've submitted to the test of publick opinion on this site.



come on them fuckface quote them.

And why would I want to test the public opinion on these boards?

I could put bets on nearly everyones reaction to the riots before they post.


----------



## Zonk (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> come on them fuckface quote them.
> 
> And why would I want to test the public opinion on these boards?
> 
> I could put bets on nearly everyones reaction to the riots before they post.



You'z such a clever little fucker aren't ya!  

And psychic to boot!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

Zonk said:
			
		

> You'z such a clever little fucker aren't ya!
> 
> And psychic to boot!



see i knew you'd say that


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

Zonk said:
			
		

> And psychic to boot!



prods are into all that spiritualism and that arent they?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> prods are into all that spiritualism and that arent they?



no i think you'll find thats catholics and that would make more sense as i was raised one.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

just to sum up the first 20 pages -

we have the radical liberal approach towards the riots which seems to be: we must be very careful who & what we are supporting because the behaviour of some individuals goes against our model of class action. We must wait & see till after the riots have finished & class anger been quelled before we decide what all that was about. We cannot fitfully show solidarity for the riots because real workers were not involved. 

the anarchist approach seems to be: this is a genuine expression of class anger & who are we to judge or condemn the actions & activities of those who after years & years of state repression & hostility, social exclusion & deprived economic circumstances are finally taking things into their own hands. Despite the lack of focus or organisation our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.

Fair?


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## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> just to sum up the first 20 pages -
> 
> we have the radical liberal approach towards the riots which seems to be: we must be very careful who & what we are supporting because the behaviour of some individuals goes against our model of class action. We must wait & see till after the riots have finished & class anger been quelled before we decide what all that was about. We cannot fitfully show solidarity for the riots because real workers were not involved.
> 
> ...



ahh nice to see the old either/or trick there.

twat.

So tell us do you think the working class people on the bus that stoned and then burnt have no right to judge the actions of some of the rioters?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

perhaps i should've said 'revolutionary approach' rather than 'anarchist approach' given a lot of leftists seem happy to support the rioters.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> the anarchist approach seems to be: this is a genuine expression of class anger & who are we to judge or condemn the actions & activities of those who after years & years of state repression & hostility, social exclusion & deprived economic circumstances are finally taking things into their own hands. Despite the lack of focus or organisation our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.
> 
> Fair?



you've certainly summed up the proper anarchist/revolutionary communist perspective there, yes. whether i'd call the others liberals or not is another issue


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

Against my better judgement, since every other point i've raised has been completely ignored  ...



			
				montevideo said:
			
		

> just to sum up the first 20 pages -
> 
> we have the radical liberal approach towards the riots which seems to be: we must be very careful who & what we are supporting because the behaviour of some individuals goes against our model of class action. We must wait & see till after the riots have finished & class anger been quelled before we decide what all that was about. We cannot fitfully show solidarity for the riots because real workers were not involved.


This first bit is bullshit, nobody has said this. But that's to be expected from you.



> the anarchist approach seems to be: this is a genuine expression of class anger & who are we to judge or condemn the actions & activities of those who after years & years of state repression & hostility, social exclusion & deprived economic circumstances are finally taking things into their own hands. Despite the lack of focus or organisation our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.


This latter bit I'd mostly agree with. Except this: "who are we to judge or condemn the actions". All of us are entitled to interpret and understand anything in the way we wish. You can't throw aside any critical thought just cos actions are being carried out by working class people. Some working class people do counter-productive activities all the time, from organised things like lynchings in the US, or sectarian industrial action in N. Ireland, to individual things like murder or rape. "Who are we to judge" other workers' actions? We're other workers with a shared class interest in creating a communist world, that's who.

You keep refusing to answer this monte - do you support "any and all" action taken by any working class person about anything, ever? If not you're a hypocrit.


Cockneyrebel:


> His first post attacks the rioters more than the French state.


And you and monte are attacking me more than you are the French state! Come on this is a discussion amongst revolutionary socialists, we know we're gonna agree on the ballpark stuff, this is just specifics. I was in particular addressing the trot like tone of the initial article, offering "unconditional support"

As for this last bit of monte's thing again:


> Despite the lack of focus or organisation our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.


I think I'd probably disagree with way you interpret that. I don't think it's worth chucking everything aside to go do things "in support" of the rioters, just to carry on the general everyday work of trying to build workers' power (NB lower case) wherever we can.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

good post iceman

You can ride my tail anytime.







and Monty don't you think that we are in a position to analysis whether certain actions will furthr marginalise those in the suburbs, or help create links with the wider class?

And what about the fact the rioting is predonimantly young and male, with little responsibilities, don't you think some of their actions will bring them into conflict with other working class people on their estates, even their own families?

Stop looking at revolutionary activity as macho stone throwing you fucking cock.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

As said, I have no problem with people pointing out what things they think are wrong, but it's the tone of some of this debate. It seems to almost fall into the language of the right-wing at some points i.e. emphasing that the people protesting/rioting are anti-social elements of society. I mean the main thrust of your initial post seemed to suggest we should be careful because a load of them are muggers and anti-social, rather than emphasise that this is an explosion of anger against poverty and racism. Whether most people posting on here are lefties or not this seems a wrong way of putting things to me.

It's also been subsequently pointed out that the example you gave about a bunch of students getting mugged actually happened in March.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> good post iceman
> 
> You can ride my tail anytime.



For fucks sake, can we leave out the embarassing bollox.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> As said, I have no problem with people pointing out what things they think are wrong, but it's the tone of some of this debate. It seems to almost fall into the language of the right-wing at some points i.e. emphasing that the people protesting/rioting are anti-social elements of society. I mean the main thrust of your initial post seemed to suggest we should be careful because a load of them are muggers and anti-social, rather than emphasise that this is an explosion of anger against poverty and racism. Whether most people posting on here are lefties or not this seems a wrong way of putting things to me.
> 
> It's also been subsequently pointed out that the example you gave about a bunch of students getting mugged actually happened in March.



just cos the example happened in March doens't negate the point of it, it was only to point out the problems in trying to unite wider struggles with those in the suburbs.

And if the tone me and others has taken has seemed abit negative, perhaps thats cause we were faced with anarcho mr blobbies who couldn't manage a critical thought between them.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

i'm surprised frantz fanon hasn't been brought up more often. Maybe it's not on their reading list.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> For fucks sake, can we leave out the embarassing bollox.



are you soo fucking thick you missed the joke in that, it was meant to be cheesey and slightly homoerotic you daft fuck.

God help the Iraqi proletariat if you ever make it to Iraq, your as bright as a catholics face cloth!


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> i'm surprised frantz fanon hasn't been brought up more often. Maybe it's not on their reading list.




franz fanon was a fucking embarrassment and nothing short of a no but yes legitimisation of brutal natioanl liberation regimes that came to power.

Wretched of the fucking Earth my arse.


----------



## knopf (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> young and male, with little responsibilities



.... why it's almost designed for the WOMBLES to support. All they need is ket & it'd be the ideal struggle.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

like a moth to a flame


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 14, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> This latter bit I'd mostly agree with. Except this: "who are we to judge or condemn the actions". All of us are entitled to interpret and understand anything in the way we wish. You can't throw aside any critical thought just cos actions are being carried out by working class people. Some working class people do counter-productive activities all the time, from organised things like lynchings in the US, or sectarian industrial action in N. Ireland, to individual things like murder or rape. "Who are we to judge" other workers' actions? We're other workers with a shared class interest in creating a communist world, that's who.


Well said that man


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> As said, I have no problem with people pointing out what things they think are wrong, but it's the tone of some of this debate. It seems to almost fall into the language of the right-wing at some points i.e. emphasing that the people protesting/rioting are anti-social elements of society. I mean the main thrust of your initial post seemed to suggest we should be careful because a load of them are muggers and anti-social, rather than emphasise that this is an explosion of anger against poverty and racism. Whether most people posting on here are lefties or not this seems a wrong way of putting things to me.


My main point was that a more sensible approach (for anarchists anyway) would be like the libertarian approach to national liberation struggles (not "unconditional support" but measured support/solidarity with particular pro-working class elements within it). Would you agree the two things are comparable?

Of course in addition a lot of people have a highly negative, media-skewed view of the riots. An anarchist groups telling people to "support" these things which have killed a pensioner, destroyed thousands of people's cars, etc. will add to people's view of anarchists as a bunch of dicks who just love rioting, chaos, violence and murder. Not to mention alienating the large proportion of the French working class who understand the rioters' problems, but don't think they're going the right way about solving them.



> It's also been subsequently pointed out that the example you gave about a bunch of students getting mugged actually happened in March.


Sorry I never meant to imply that was recent. But montevideo's argument is basically who are we to say what's good and what's not? I say we're the only people who can say! Not everything violent that people from the banlieus do is good, or beneficial to the w/c.


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> like a moth to a flame


Right so that's why I don't bother trying to write serious replies to your shite


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

the reason fanon is interesting in this context, given his background & relationship to france, is he noted that violence was a necessary (although ugly, unavoidable) part of the decolonisation process. (He was, if you pardon the facile nature of the remark, the anti-gandhi).

Sympathisers to fanon's view would say that france's chickens are coming home to roost (if you'll pardon the cliche). How this fits into what is currently happening in paris & other parts of france is interesting, if only to highlight to the office bound class warriors & their tourettes inspired game boys, that  burning a few cars is nothing in comparison to years of brutality, oppression, hatred & systematic violence on a daily basis to you, your family, your friends by state forces which you are powerless against.


Who then, beyond the self-appointed office boy & his tourettes vomiting pygmy friend, are we to judge what is & is not acceptable behaviour under those circumstances?


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> are you soo fucking thick you missed the joke in that, it was meant to be cheesey and slightly homoerotic you daft fuck.



You're the dumb fuck, because you missed my point. It just wasn't funny.



> just cos the example happened in March doens't negate the point of it, it was only to point out the problems in trying to unite wider struggles with those in the suburbs.



So a few people from the suburbs mugged some students in March, so that's something to judge the rioters by?! How do you know they are in any way connected? Or are you saying if someone in your area does something, you should be judged by it?



> My main point was that a more sensible approach (for anarchists anyway) would be like the libertarian approach to national liberation struggles (not "unconditional support" but measured support/solidarity with particular pro-working class elements within it). Would you agree the two things are comparable?



Trotskyists don't say you should give uncritical support to national liberation struggles by the way. In terms of comparing the two, I think for anarchists there would be big differences. The riots in France are spontaneous actions by working class youth, national liberation struggles that anarchists have problems with are usually organised and led by bourgeois nationalists, stalinists, religious leaders etc



> Of course in addition a lot of people have a highly negative, media-skewed view of the riots. An anarchist groups telling people to "support" these things which have killed a pensioner, destroyed thousands of people's cars, etc. will add to people's view of anarchists as a bunch of dicks who just love rioting, chaos, violence and murder. Not to mention alienating the large proportion of the French working class who understand the rioters' problems, but don't think they're going the right way about solving them.



The government is going on a massive offensive against the young people rioting against poverty and racism. Now while they may be carrying out some actions which backfire, I would have thought the main thrust of the left - socialist or anarchist - would be to defend the rioters from the oppression of the French state, while trying to engage with the people rioting. Now for the people on this thread that doesn't amount to anything much in reality, but as said before people comment on things they have no direct influence over all the time.

When people are saying they support the rioters, they are saying they support their fight against poverty and racism in a collective sense, not every individual act that this or that person might carry out. I mean for fucks sake have you got to make a list of every individual rioter and tick off whether they are acceptable or not.


----------



## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

Gosh, this thread is a riot!

Geddit?!


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> Who then, beyond the self-appointed office boy & his tourettes vomiting pygmy friend, are we to judge what is & is not acceptable behaviour by those who circumstances?


Do you think rape is acceptable in a colonised country? Or presumably within the banlieus? Is it because these people are a mostly different race you think different standards should apply to them?

For about the 10th time will you answer this: *do you support "any and all" action taken by any working class person about anything, ever? *. As this seems to be the crux of your politics at the minute, why won't you answer it?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> the reason fanon is interesting in this context, given his background & relationship to france, is he noted that violence was a necessary (although ugly, unavoidable) part of the decolonisation process. (He was, if you pardon the facile nature of the remark, the anti-gandhi).
> 
> Sympathisers to fanon's view would say that france's chickens are coming home to roost (if you'll pardon the cliche). How this fits into what is currently happening in paris & other parts of france is interesting, if only to highlight to the office bound class warriors & their tourettes inspired game boys, that a burning a few cars is nothing in comparison to years of brutality, oppression, hatred & systematic violence on a daily basis to you, your family, your friends by state forces which you are powerless against.
> 
> ...



and has anyone denied the violence of everyday life in the suburbs? Has anyone said they don't have an understanding of what would brutalise people. Fuck i've even acknowledged that the kids are attacking anything that seems remotely related to the state be that cops, buses or nurseries. 

My concern is how much such forms of struggle are limited to young males and their inability to link up with other workers struggles.

See unlike your good self i've actually got a desire to see working class self empowerment in a really meaningful sense and not just take a hard on at people figthing the police and setting shit on fire.

But hey your a womble....


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> My concern is how much such forms of struggle are limited to young males and their inability to link up with other workers struggles.



And what do you think would be the best way for the French left to engage with the rioters? On the basis of saying that some of the rioters should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done, or on the basis of saying we support your fight against poverty and racism and try and build some kind of dialogue/link from there?


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> Gosh, this thread is a riot!



Are the Kaiser Chiefs political geniuses?


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> And what do you think would be the best way for the French left to engage with the rioters? On the basis of saying that some of the rioters should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done, or on the basis of saying we support your fight against poverty and racism and try and build some kind of dialogue/link from there?


Well come on obviously we'd all agree on the latter, CR.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> Well come on obviously we'd all agree on the latter, CR.



Well reading some of the comments on here, I wasn't so sure.

It's like the riots in the US ghettos in the 1960s and 1980s, would the left stand by and decry the rioters for their lack of class perspective or try and engage with the spontaneous anger?

And in terms of earlier examples of low level crime in the suburbs, it's hardly a shock that some people are driven into crime considering the decades of unemployment and oppression. Now as said, the example you gave is totally irrelevant as it has no conection to the current riots. All those kind of comments do is play into the media who are trying to present the rioters as anti-social lumpen, mindless vandels.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> And what do you think would be the best way for the French left to engage with the rioters? On the basis of saying that some of the rioters should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done, or on the basis of saying we support your fight against poverty and racism and try and build some kind of dialogue/link from there?



well i'd imagine the latter, but my whole point has been that instead of just taking a hard on and delivering our unconditional and ineffective binary support we should instead be looking to analysis how the riots will relate to the wider working class (both in the estates and outside), the positive developments from the riots (a growing awareness of themselves as active subjects), how much such methods represent the weakness of the working class in such areas.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

revo I don't think it is the job of the French left to arrogantly tell off the rioters for their lack of strategy or for some self-defeating actions (burning down schools in their own district). Instead the French left should engage with the rioters on the basis of supporting their fight against oppression and racism.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> revo I don't think it is the job of the French left to arrogantly tell off the rioters for their lack of strategy or for some self-defeating actions (burning down schools in their own district). Instead the French left should engage with the rioters on the basis of supporting their fight against oppression and racism.



for the last fucking time i never argued that you fuckng stupid trot cunt!

Are we the fucking french left? All we can do is try and analysis these events as honestly and usefully as possible, to understand areas of commonality within the working class, but also to grasp the fracture points.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> for the last fucking time i never argued that you fuckng stupid trot cunt!



Now now, you're gonna explode if you're not careful.

What I'm talking about is the tone of some of the contributions on here. Talking about muggers and anti-social behaviour rather than the oppression of the French state.

Anyway I'll leave you to analyse away.....


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> Now now, you're gonna explode if you're not careful.
> 
> What I'm talking about is the tone of some of the contributions on here. Talking about muggers and anti-social behaviour rather than the oppression of the French state.
> 
> Anyway I'll leave you to analyse away.....



no one mentioned muggers you daft fuck!

the point was we we're arguing against some peoples "unconditional support" and then Monty and RednBlacks reidiculous relativism that led both of them to refuse to cross a racist picket line in solidarity with Enoch Powell.

I actually have a lot of time for the french rioters, especially cos a lot of them probably have the wit to retain the right to criticise their fellow travellers, unlike some middle class little activist pricks from Britain whose only concern is the spectacle of resistance.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

Also in terms of "what can be done" and how the rioters can link up with the organised working class, what about the other side of the coin?

Are the French left (who are sizeable compared to the UK) and left unions organising protests in support of the rioters struggles against poverty and racism?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> no one mentioned muggers you daft fuck!
> 
> the point was we we're arguing against some peoples "unconditional support" and then Monty and RednBlacks reidiculous relativism that led both of them to refuse to cross a racist picket line in solidarity with Enoch Powell.
> 
> I actually have a lot of time for the french rioters, especially cos a lot of them probably have the wit to retain the right to criticise their fellow travellers, unlike some middle class little activist pricks from Britain whose only concern is the spectacle of resistance.



coming from a scab that's high praise indeed.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> Also in terms of "what can be done" and how the rioters can link up with the organised working class, what about the other side of the coin?
> 
> Are the French left (who are sizeable compared to the UK) and left unions organising protests in support of the rioters struggles against poverty and racism?



yes that is important, my point was we should try and grasp to what extent some of the rioting makes arguing such a case easier or harder.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> coming from a scab that's high praise indeed.



well no chance of you and your K fuelled mates ever having to scab, well unless your great leader gets you all summer jobs scabbin in the Vineyard!


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> no one mentioned muggers you daft fuck!



Icepick did in his first post when he talked about the incident in March when a bunch of students got mugged by some people from the suburbs.



> unlike some middle class little activist pricks from Britain



From meeting RnB he doesn't meet this description, but there you go.

However I don't agree that you should never cross a picket line. For instance fascist unions had picket lines. Also if there was a picket against racism and black and Asian workers refused to go along with it, a left organiser would look a little odd going along with the strike to say the least.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> yes that is important, my point was we should try and grasp to what extent some of the rioting makes arguing such a case easier or harder.



Whether it makes it harder or not, it is ashame the French left hasn't managed to organise any protests by the looks of it, especially as they have 1000s of members in the case of the PO and LCR.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> Icepick did in his first post when he talked about the incident in March when a bunch of students got mugged by some people from the suburbs.
> 
> 
> 
> From meeting RnB he doesn't meet this description, but there you go.



that was mostly in relation to Montevideo.

and the mugging incident wasn't just some students getting mugged, which happens almost everyday.

It was a collective action upon a demostration, involving hundreds of youths, and why it is important is that it shows the fracture lines within the class, with those so marginalised that they see no hope through collective struggle against government reform and instead seegreater hope in collective oppurtunist muggings.

And the mugging was only brought up cos montevideo seems to think being working class makes every action radical and above comtempt.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> Whether it makes it harder or not, it is ashame the French left hasn't managed to organise any protests by the looks of it, especially as they have 1000s of members in the case of the PO and LCR.




yes it is a pity but what do you want us to do, sit and whinge or try and understand the fragmentation within the working class that allows such things to happen?

My point is that some of the actions of the rioters point out a high degree of marginalisation from the wider working class and at the same time they only serve to further cement this estrangement.

it's also important (as Gary Younge argued today in his rather good column) to examine the lack of women involved in the unrest.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

The mugging was nothing to do with the current riots. That kind of message ends up backing up the agenda of the media/French government.

Obviously decades of deprevation will lead to some criminality.

But as said rather than bemoan the lack of strategy of the rioters, what about the actions of the French left?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> So a few people from the suburbs mugged some students in March, so that's something to judge the rioters by?! How do you know they are in any way connected? Or are you saying if someone in your area does something, you should be judged by it?



it comes across as if he's saying that all the youths from the estates are muggers, i know he doesnt think that - but to some who doesnt know him it could come across that way


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> yes it is a pity but what do you want us to do, sit and whinge or try and understand the fragmentation within the working class that allows such things to happen?



But that's all you do seem to be doing, sitting there and whinging.



> My point is that some of the actions of the rioters point out a high degree of marginalisation from the wider working class and at the same time they only serve to further cement this estrangement.



Which is why it is even more of ashame the French left seems to be doing little to bridge this divide by organising demonstrations in support of the rioters and against the French government.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> as Gary Younge argued today in his rather good column



It was quite a good article



> Amid the charred chassis and broken glass there is a vital point of principle to salvage: in certain conditions rioting is not just justified but may also be necessary, and effective. From the poll tax demonstrations to Soweto, history is littered with such cases; what were the French and American revolutions but riots endowed by Enlightenment principles and then blessed by history?......
> 
> Rioting should be neither celebrated nor fetishised, because ultimately it is a sign not of strength but weakness. Like a strike, it is often the last and most desperate weapon available to those with the least power. Rioting is a class act. Wealthy people don't do it because either they have the levers of democracy at their disposal, or they can rely on the state or private security firms to do their violent work for them, if need be.



Also totally agree with:



> Many of these French youths may have had a ball last week, but what they really need is a party - a political organisation that will articulate their aspirations.


----------



## sihhi (Nov 14, 2005)

*French govt attmpts to make immediate curfew powers last for 3 months*

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14694104.htm



> Chirac, criticised for his low profile during the crisis, was to explain his decision to roll over the emergency powers in a television broadcast at 8 p.m. (1900 GMT), the first time he will have addressed the nation directly on the violence.
> 
> The government is expected to introduce the measure to parliament on Tuesday and should secure a comfortable majority.



Tally of arrests:


> Police have arrested 2,767 people since the unrest began


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> typical cowardice on his part though



Yeah. Clearly shows cowardice, posting here, doesn't it?

I guess it does on your planet, anyway.

Oh and Taxamuppet "2 weeks in Palestine on daddy's credit card and I'm Noam Chomsky" Whelp ... just you keep me on ignore - saves you having to answer questions on why you seem intent to try and stir up more trouble than you could ever, ever handle with certain friends of mine who don't recall ever meeting you, doesn't it, eh kid?

In the meantime - the riots are fizzling out and there is still no trace of anarchist involvement whatsoever, save for a few bloggers trying to claim the burning of a few knackered Peugeots as a wevolutionary act.

Better luck next time, anarkids!

Maybe you should try some "voiture flambe" for real one day, it's good fun!


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

post reported as multiple logins are against the FAQ


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> post reported as multiple logins are against the FAQ



Grass!


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Grass!



post reported for off topic abuse


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> post reported for off topic abuse



Lock&light clone!


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> coming from a scab that's high praise indeed.


Ha ha - someone doesn't support a racist picket - so he's a scab. Amazing.

Well really it was his dad, and a sectarian picket, but still. But monte - his dad grew up in the violent estates of Belfast. "Who are you to judge" his actions, eh? You're such a ridiculous hypocrite.  

Cockney - the mugging thing was in relation to people like monte saying you can't judge what's good and bad: if it's w/c people do it you have to support it. A ridiculous position, I'm sure you'll agree.


----------



## Random (Nov 14, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Cockney - the mugging thing was in relation to people like monte saying you can't judge what's good and bad: if it's w/c people do it you have to support it. A ridiculous position, I'm sure you'll agree.



Hey, just because Monte is talking nonsens, that's no reason to go running to trots for support


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Lock&light clone!



silly boy


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> silly boy


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

well my da grew up in the shitty estates of around Larne.

He is a right scabbing bastard though, I mean not only does he scab on sectarianism in the workplace he also does it outside. Infact when loyalists were bricking the army in a bid to invade a catholic area in Larne, he refused to join in.

Whether you think that is because he is a workerist who fails to see the potential in such riots or rather that his analysis was so good that he seen this as another chance to scab I'll leave you to call on.

Of course the fact he was going out with a catholic and had catholic mates was fuck all to do with it, he just saw it as a chance to scab on the working class.


----------



## In Bloom (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> well my da grew up in the shitty estates of around Larne.
> 
> He is a right scabbing bastard though, I mean not only does he scab on sectarianism in the workplace he also does it outside. Infact when loyalists were bricking the army in a bid to invade a catholic area in Larne, he refused to join in.
> 
> ...


Shut up! Filthy scabspawn 

Sadly necessary disclaimer: not being serious


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> post reported as multiple logins are against the FAQ



Except, as the Editor will confirm, I don't have another login.
The pk login was destroyed in Spain, at a bar overlooking the super-yachts in Puerto Banus.

For someone so anti-authoritarian, you seem keen on running to the authorities!

Maybe it's because your accusation of "coward!" is pitiful at best?

Whereas the accusations of "grass" seem to fit the bill, eh?

(oh, and lighten up mate)


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

well my _da_ grew up in the slum areas of central manchester (ardwick), never crossed a picket line but never voted for strike action either. Did his national service without question. Archetypal working class tory (in the cultural sense rather than the political). Neither side of the family had religious aspirations & for that i can only thank them. 

And so it goes on...


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

pidgeonhead said:
			
		

> Except, as the Editor will confirm, I don't have another login.
> The pk login was destroyed in Spain, at a bar overlooking the super-yachts in Puerto Banus.
> 
> For someone so anti-authoritarian, you seem keen on running to the authorities!
> ...



Errm, you twat.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> well my _da_ grew up in the slum areas of central manchester (ardwick), never crossed a picket line but never voted for strike action either. Did his national service without question. Archetypal working class tory (in the cultural sense rather than the political). Neither side of the family had religious aspirations & for that i can only thank them.
> 
> And so it goes on...



and......

you spit on his working class pride by alligning yourself with a bunch of middle class activist k fiends.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Errm, you twat.



Errm, explain the abuse, moose.


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

Don't tell me what to do.

If you really think he reported the post, you really are a complete prick. Now fuck off.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> and......
> 
> you spit on his working class pride by alligning yourself with a bunch of middle class activist k fiends.



or rather i defend his working class past by not having some runt litter posh kids working in government offices talk about _"our class" _


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 14, 2005)

In my very humble opinion, "support" "critical support" " unconditional support" whatever, are all formulations that fail to address the idea that most peope are expressing ie that if there are two sides, the rioters and the state, you stand against the state, alongside the rioters. The trouble with 'support' is that you end up into these (fairly futile) arguments about do you support everything that happens. 

This is why I prefer the formulation of 'defend', ie, I may not support everything that happens in a riot situation, but I'd defend the rioters against the state (of course, it could be argued that this is an equally useless phrase because it just opens up another argument about what is meant by defence, and how can I actually defend anyone seeing as I'm hundreds of miles away sitting at my computer - damn the english language).

Anyhow, there is more heat than light on this thread, but that's grand because its a chilly day and my office is cold.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> or rather i defend his working class past by not having some runt litter posh kids working in government offices talk about _"our class" _



what government office do i work in them dipshit?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> In my very humble opinion, "support" "critical support" " unconditional support" whatever, are all formulations that fail to address the idea that most peope are expressing ie that if there are two sides, the rioters and the state, you stand against the state, alongside the rioters. The trouble with 'support' is that you end up into these (fairly futile) arguments about do you support everything that happens.
> 
> This is why I prefer the formulation of 'defend', ie, I may not support everything that happens in a riot situation, but I'd defend the rioters against the state (of course, it could be argued that this is an equally useless phrase because it just opens up another argument about what is meant by defence, and how can I actually defend anyone seeing as I'm hundreds of miles away sitting at my computer - damn the english language).
> 
> Anyhow, there is more heat than light on this thread, but that's grand because its a chilly day and my office is cold.



aye like how youse defend national liberation struggles lol


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 14, 2005)

as a I said, more heat than light. brrrrr.


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> This is why I prefer the formulation of 'defend', ie, I may not support everything that happens in a riot situation, but I'd defend the rioters against the state (of course, it could be argued that this is an equally useless phrase because it just opens up another argument about what is meant by defence, and how can I actually defend anyone seeing as I'm hundreds of miles away sitting at my computer - damn the english language).



yep defend is just as useless a phrase imo  

howabout dlúthpháirtíocht?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> what government office do i work in them dipshit?



you're not part of the runt litter tourettes. For you it's online multiplayer gaming & level 97 of doom between packets of cheesy wotsits & wiping up the detritus of self affection with your stale at the drive-in t-shirts.

More heat, apologies.


----------



## sovietpop (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> yep defend is just as useless a phrase imo
> 
> howabout dlúthpháirtíocht?



ah a grand word, yes that works.


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you're not part of the runt litter tourettes. For you it's online multiplayer gaming & level 97 of doom between packets of cheesy wotsits & wiping up the detritus of self affection with your stale at the drive-in t-shirts.
> 
> More heat, apologies.



Yea, what a scumbag, he likes music, videogames and food.


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> Yea, what a scumbag, he likes music, videogames and food.



one of the runt litter bang on cue.


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> what government office do i work in them dipshit?



...and if you did, what would be the problem?


----------



## cats hammers (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> one of the runt litter bang on cue.



Anarchist Hairdresser >> 'Libertarian Marxist' >> English Anarchist >> Runt Litter

Did I miss anything?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

i actually work as a software tester but hey don't let that stand in the way.

So what do you do for a living then Monte?

And Jack there would be absolutely nothing wrong with working in th civil service, just thought I'd enquire as to where Monty got such ideas.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Don't tell me what to do.
> 
> If you really think he reported the post, you really are a complete prick. Now fuck off.



Don't be telling me what to do, flimsy. 

I'll go when it suits me. I'm enjoying myself for now.

My my, touchy today aren't we?

It must be the weather, I don't believe the male menopause would be affecting you just yet.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

Or maybe Lock&Light's been teasing you again... bless.


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

Who is this cunt?


----------



## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Who is this cunt?



he's supposed to be pk, but i heard pk had fled in tears after being verbally abused one too many times by ern


----------



## flimsier (Nov 14, 2005)

I heard that too. This one's not as bad as pk though.


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> he's supposed to be pk, but i heard pk had fled in tears after being verbally abused one too many times by ern



Actually me and ern haven't been arguing for months now - you can ask him, since you're still in touch.

Ever since I worked out where he works and what he looks like, he's been pretty quiet on that front, besides, he was understandably upset after one of his charges was murdered in cold blood, an awful thing, and I agreed not to wind him up any more and he agreed to do the same.

As for fleeing in tears - not really very likely is it mate? 

Certainly not from ern... I used to quite like the old scrote, though if the recent activities toward the editor here really are down to him, I'd suggest he watched his step very carefully... though I rather suspect he's become a convienient nickname certain anarkid cowards can now freely use to anonymously vandalise various little bits of web presence pertaining to Urban75.

Any little coward can sign themselves "ern" and I'm in no position to view and compare IP addresses. Not that I would be bothered to in the slightest.

Though having looked in the bin - it does seem rather pathetic that he keeps trying to crawl back in... still, that's why so many of you wevolutionaries look up to him I guess...

Play nicely now kids!


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

On this whole thing, I think montevideo repeatedly slagging me off for having a job (I bet your "precarity" meetings are fun) is pretty indicative of the whole reason I posted on this thread, in the way that I have.

What anarchist "movement" or subcultural scene as there is has retreated up its own arse so far it is just incapable of communicating with anyone outside of it. From producing ridiculous over-militant and self-referential propaganda, complete with rioters, fire, stones, balaclavas, made-up jargon, stupid in-jokes to general hysterical proclamations on the internet.

Would people on this thread talk to non-politicos in the way they have on here? I mean the CW articles would appear to be for the general public, but if you were just talking to someone would you start off saying "I support the riots totally, this is class war" without giving some kind of explanation about the background, etc.? It's just all ridiculously alienating - particularly for the majority of the non-banlieu French working class - who also have real concerns. My housemate who's a french leftie, of communist parents is mostly worried about this because of the massive right-wing backlash it's going to provoke. Seeing people burning cars might make some wannabe Baader-Meinhoffs cream their shorts but this isn't a stupid game - especially in a country where the far right gets nearly 20% of the vote.

Most of the anarchists are so divorced from reality if it wasn't so tragic would be fucking hilarious. Well, it is still pretty funny anyway...

And why the hell isn't everyone just ignoring pigeonhead?


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Most of the anarchists are so divorced from reality if it wasn't so tragic would be fucking hilarious. Well, it is still pretty funny anyway...



We agree wholeheartedly on something.



> And why the hell isn't everyone just ignoring pigeonhead?



You wouldn't want me to thcweam and thcweam and thcweam until I was sick now would you?


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

(actually, I do agree with Icepick's points, all of them, but don't let's ruin the fun by actually engaging in a debate!!)


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> coming from a scab that's high praise indeed.


cos theres no wink or nowt i'm going to assume that that was serious.

I like you montey, but you are now on ignore - offline as well.

How can you be so out of line?


----------



## montevideo (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> cos theres no wink or nowt i'm going to assume that that was serious.
> 
> I like you montey, but you are now on ignore - offline as well.
> 
> How can you be so out of line?



fair enough. He's a scab by his own admission.


----------



## lostexpectation (Nov 14, 2005)

*real workers?*

somebody said something about them not being real working class?? whatever working class means, but would it be wrong to describe "them" as underclass?


firsthand reports, firsthand reports theres gotta be some first hand reports somewhere?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> well my _da_ grew up in the slum areas of central manchester (ardwick), never crossed a picket line but never voted for strike action either. Did his national service without question. Archetypal working class tory (in the cultural sense rather than the political). Neither side of the family had religious aspirations & for that i can only thank them.
> 
> And so it goes on...


So what? Completely off topic. If anything you've shown revol's dad to be more principled than your own - why that should have any releance i don't know. I highly suspect that you treat these discussions as a load of bollocks, having decided already that you know best you just want to cause as much disruption as possible.

Bye.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> fair enough. He's a scab by his own admission.



at most i admitted my da was a scab you daft fuck.

And i'm sorry but i don't thinking crossing a fascist picket line is scabbing.

Out of interest what do you do for a living?


----------



## pidgeonhead (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> cos theres no wink or nowt i'm going to assume that that was serious.
> 
> I like you montey, but you are now on ignore - offline as well.



Not going to have much to read at this rate, eh muppetboy?


----------



## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

lostexpectation said:
			
		

> firsthand reports, firsthand reports theres gotta be some first hand reports somewhere?


Someone just posted a good one to libcom:
http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=81156#81156




			
				revol68 said:
			
		

> Out of interest what do you do for a living?


Hahahahahaaha good one! You silly boy real working class heroes don't have *jobs*. They're for the brainwashed automatons who believe in things like HIV.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

i can understand how people can be attacking revol so much, but i am a bit puzzled by icepick: all he did was try and temper the more OTT aspects of the OP. Which in fact Class War themselves have done if you look at the pdf leaflet that was printed - it is not the same as the OP. icepick has given a decent account of himself repeatedly, and has not been abusive or offhand.

How can calling for a little balance end up being interpreted as being reactionary*? Theres nothing to say that you couldn't agree with the points that Icepick has raised and still go on the demo in question. I would have (if i had known CW would temper their statement a little, amd more importantly if i lived in london). As it goes, the demo got 15 ppl which is less than the number of people supporting it on this thread i believe, which speaks for itself.

Interpreting the 'tempered' side of the argument as 'we hate riots and violence' as montey has is wrong: if you start making concrete steps to taking power back to the peiople you will come into conflict with the police soon enough, and then you will have to defend yourself. A communist of any strain knows this.

*whatever that stupid fucking word which most people would run 20 miles from means


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## Ryazan (Nov 14, 2005)

You're a communist?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

*pidgeonhead/PK*

just checked to see what your last post said - yeah i've blocked 3 people and your 2 of them. I won't have nowt to read


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## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i can understand how people can be attacking revol so much, but i am a bit puzzled by icepick: all he did was try and temper the more OTT aspects of the OP. Which in fact Class War themselves have done if you look at the pdf leaflet that was printed - it is not the same as the OP. icepick has given a decent account of himself repeatedly, and has not been abusive or offhand.






			
				icepick said:
			
		

> Hahahahahaaha good one! You silly boy real working class heroes don't have *jobs*. They're for the brainwashed automatons who believe in things like HIV.


  

Sorry

*climbs back on high horse*


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## Chuck Wilson (Nov 14, 2005)

montevideo said:
			
		

> you're not part of the runt litter tourettes. For you it's online multiplayer gaming & level 97 of doom between packets of cheesy wotsits & wiping up the detritus of self affection with your stale at the drive-in t-shirts.
> 
> More heat, apologies.



Poetry monty, effortless poetry .The Mark. E . Smith of independent anarchism. Fantastic life.


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## sihhi (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> if you start making concrete steps to taking power back to the peiople you will come into conflict with the police soon enough, and then you will have to defend yourself. A communist of any strain knows this.



But isn't this *in part* (no, quite evidently not all of it) what happened in Clichy-sur-Bois? [A group of innocent, young teenagers are playing football. Police drive in mentioning a break-in. Fearing arrest or hassle they run away and two are electrocuted dead and one injured in their escape.]
Young people in Clichy sur bois then attempt to "take power back to the people" when it is clear that no one else will do this for them- and they "come into conflict with the police" and then defend themselves by means of attack.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

Ryazan said:
			
		

> You're a communist?


where does it say that...?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

sihhi said:
			
		

> But isn't this *in part* (no, quite evidently not all of it) what happened in Clichy-sur-Bois? [A group of innocent, young teenagers are playing football. Police drive in mentioning a break-in. Fearing arrest or hassle they run away and two are electrocuted dead and one injured in their escape.]
> Young people in Clichy sur bois then attempt to "take power back to the people" when it is clear that no one else will do this for them- and they "come into conflict with the police" and then defend themselves by means of attack.


indeed


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## sihhi (Nov 14, 2005)

*Solidarity 'actions'*

Greece (more expected apparently on the Athens Polytechnic Massacre Commemorations)
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20051113104941489

and in Barcelona aswell
http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=46331#commentaires


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

> The measures were prompted by yesterday morning’s attack on the French Institute in central Athens in which about 50 hooded youths hurled paint at the building’s facade, smashed windows and spray-painted anarchist slogans. The attack followed a similar incident outside the French Institute in Thessaloniki on Thursday night, when around 40 anarchists, holding banners expressing their support for rioting youths in France, vandalized the entrance to the building. The youths eluded arrest.





> Arsonists threw gasoline bombs at two car dealerships in central Athens overnight, burning 13 vehicles and causing damage to ten others. Police said the attacks occurred shortly after midnight at two neighbouring car dealerships for Mercedes and Citroen on central Alexandras avenue.
> 
> No arrests or injuries were reported


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

*a few points of clarification...?*

Why did: 

the WOMBLES not put up the demo on either their site nor on their e-list

Cockneyrebel not attend the picket depite being in full support of it.


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## cockneyrebel (Nov 14, 2005)

> Cockneyrebel not attend the picket depite being in full support of it.



What are you talking about, what picket


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## catch (Nov 14, 2005)

cockneyrebel said:
			
		

> What are you talking about, what picket



the one this thread advertises


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> the one this thread advertises


You must be in mensa or something!


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## Thora_v1 (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Why did:
> 
> the WOMBLES not put up the demo on either their site nor on their e-list


Why should they have?


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## Thora_v1 (Nov 14, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> What primmo, im taking the piss
> 
> Thora will laugh i my knew primmo pariah status


You know you are really.  Actualise industrial collapse baby!


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## catch (Nov 14, 2005)

Thora said:
			
		

> Why should they have?



Because it would give monte's expressions of "total and unconditional support" on this thread some element of real life application?

To avoid accusations of censorship?


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## blamblam (Nov 14, 2005)

Thora said:
			
		

> Why should they have?


To be fair, they do do say that not putting something on a website is "censorship".


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

Thora said:
			
		

> Why should they have?


i truly bamboozles my noodle that you need to ask that. Surely and insurrection by the non-working disposessed (in their eyes) is exactly the kind of thing that the WOMBLES want to happen? Thora this is everything that the wombles is surely?


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## Thora_v1 (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i truly bamboozles my noodle that you need to ask that. Surely and insurrection by the non-working disposessed (in their eyes) is exactly the kind of thing that the WOMBLES want to happen? Thora this is everything that the wombles is surely?


Well, I don't know enough about les wombles politics and stuff to answer that, but wasn't the question why they didn't advertise that embassy picket, rather than about whether or not they support the riots, or have I missed the point


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## cats hammers (Nov 14, 2005)

It's kinda sad the wombles had to resort to censoring this protest. 

Perhaps someone should go to a meeting they're holding and totally ruin it by throwing it off topic by whining about it.

Oh, no, wait, that would make you a dick.


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## catch (Nov 14, 2005)

monte said:
			
		

> we have the radical liberal approach towards the riots which seems to be: we must be very careful who & what we are supporting because the behaviour of some individuals goes against our model of class action. We must wait & see till after the riots have finished & class anger been quelled before we decide what all that was about. We cannot fitfully show solidarity for the riots because real workers were not involved.
> 
> the anarchist approach seems to be: this is a genuine expression of class anger & who are we to judge or condemn the actions & activities of those who after years & years of state repression & hostility, social exclusion & deprived economic circumstances are finally taking things into their own hands. Despite the lack of focus or organisation *our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.*



Thora, Monte is quite clearly presenting his own view in that second paragraph, albeit in opposition to a straw man of other people's.

I don't see anything on his website even mentioning that these events are happening, let along expressing support (for that matter Cockney's organisation appears to have about 30 articles from November and none about this issue). Since he's using this as an opportunity to personally smear people I work with, I think I should point out that even though we nearly lost our entire site this week, we've been posting as much decent information as we can find on the riots on libcom since they started. At this stage, trying to get first-hand sources on what's going on, and beginning to understand the implications of these events is the best we can do.


As sovietpop says, it boils down to the semantics of the word 'support'. I think the discussion of those semantics has a degree of merit though - in the same way that the dialogue over the definitions of capital, class, communism etc. have some merit. Not all of them (including this thread), but some do.

None of us can offer practical solidarity, certainly not at this stage, so any statements of "support" are hollow. What we can do is try to get decent information out to as wide a variety of people as possible, and attempt to learn from these events through an honest assessment of their potentialities.

out of date now, but more on its way:
http://libcom.org/news/article.php?story=france-riots-2005-updates


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## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Poetry monty, effortless poetry .The Mark. E . Smith of independent anarchism. Fantastic life.



reminds me a little bit of john king of football factory fame actually


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> I think the discussion of those semantics has a degree of merit though - in the same way that the dialogue over the definitions of capital, class, communism etc. have some merit. Not all of them (including this thread)


I have actualy learnt a lot from this thread but not about france.

Good post catch.


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## Chuck Wilson (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> reminds me a little bit of john king of football factory fame actually



With perhaps, could I suggest,  the slightest but vital ingredient of swarthy-ism that made that post a contender for post of the year.Deffo a top five anyway.


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## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

if thats a top fucking post i really pity urban, libcom has posts better than that every other day.


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## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Hahahahahaaha good one! You silly boy real working class heroes don't have *jobs*. They're for the brainwashed automatons who believe in things like HIV.



actually monty does have a job


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## revol68 (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> actually monty does have a job



keeping the tide out with a pitchfork?

Standing in the fish mongers window acting the cod?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> reminds me a little bit of john king of football factory fame actually


have you got his latest 'The prison House'? Couldn't do it, got on my nerves. left it on the Megabus half finished and don't miss it at all. He uses the same character as the narrator in every book it would seem. 

Loved human punk and the FF trilogy tho, wanted to get white trash too.

didn't the film _stink_? Fucking terrible. That bit where 'her bit of rough' boyfriend chooses the _wrong wine_ - god it was like somethiung out of the 70's. What a joke. And to have some bullshit drug/drug dealing element that had fuck all to do with football as well - wtf? Time waste. I'd rather see the hobbit get down in that Green Street debacle.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 14, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> actually monty does have a job


whether he does or he doesn't he is an incredibly hard worker, so its irrelevant. If you are a full time activist, all power to you. Most aren't.

PS i assume its something... precarious? Like walking a tightrope over a shark tank - or carrying a pane of glass across a busy road whilst a bank robbery is in progress?


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## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> didn't the film _stink_? Fucking terrible. That bit where 'her bit of rough' boyfriend chooses the _wrong wine_ - god it was like somethiung out of the 70's. What a joke. And to have some bullshit drug/drug dealing element that had fuck all to do with football as well - wtf? Time waste. I'd rather see the hobbit get down in that Green Street debacle.



havent read the latest no...the film was shit ( got it for christmas  honest!) though mildly amusing in parts - but green street is much worse, awful...


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## rednblack (Nov 14, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> keeping the tide out with a pitchfork?
> 
> Standing in the fish mongers window acting the cod?




he's a lollipop man


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## Isambard (Nov 15, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> he's a lollipop man



Avoids smut to say:

"Wanna copy of this week's "Galloway Blagger" ?


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## Chuck Wilson (Nov 15, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> he's a lollipop man



Either it suits him to 'look left, look right and if its all clear cross' or he is a very brave man. Florescent yellow jacket-he'll stand out a mile.


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## sovietpop (Nov 15, 2005)

black block this way


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## Isambard (Nov 15, 2005)

If you stand in the middle of the road you'll get run down from both fucking sides. If there's any cars that haven't been burned.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 15, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> he's a lollipop man


honest injun?


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 15, 2005)

sovietpop said:
			
		

> black block this way


shit i thought that was someone dressed as the Grim Reaper at first glance. Thought it was hilarious   oops.


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## blamblam (Nov 15, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> shit i thought that was someone dressed as the Grim Reaper at first glance. Thought it was hilarious   oops.


_RASCIST!!!!_


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## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2005)

revol68 said:
			
		

> if thats a top fucking post i really pity urban, libcom has posts better than that every other day.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 15, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> _RASCIST!!!!_


be honest tho, if you saw a person dressed as the grim reaper crossing the road, you'd laugh.


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## pidgeonhead (Nov 15, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> be honest tho, if you saw a person dressed as the grim reaper crossing the road, you'd laugh.



If he was heading your way I might.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 15, 2005)

This message is hidden because pidgeonhead is on your ignore list. 




                                       Bliss!


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## pidgeonhead (Nov 16, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> This message is hidden because pidgeonhead is on your ignore list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I might be on your ignore list but it's funny how you still reply to the quotes you choose to.

And you ignore the ones you don't like, such as your dragging mates of mine who don't even post into arguments you know nothing about.

Best hope you don't meet them - some of them are really quite keen to have a little word with you, muppetboy.

And not only for the fact that you're obsessed with all this class war action, yet you attended a posh public school charging £8000+ per year in fees.

 






"I say, let's bash the rich! _Lashings_ of ginger beer, what what?"


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