# Who to vote for?



## nogojones (Apr 21, 2007)

Well, what a motley bunch. 

Theres no chance of me doing the tories, labour or lib dem. shower of cunts the lot.

BNP or UKIP, no thank you.

Plaid ..... naaa. I never liked s4c and I 'm not too hot on any form of nationalism.

The Greens... umm..... David Ike, bunch of hippies...maybe. Have they got anything abut juggeling in their manifesto?

A choice of TWO christian parties. How lucky we are. With gods grace....

....and finally....

A united far left:

Communist Party of Britian - but I can't drive a tank.

Socialist Labour Party - I got a big soft spot for Scargill, but I'm not that soft.

Socialist Equality Party - Who the fuck are they? The election leaflet I got tells me they are the International Committe of the Fourth International. Sounds impressive, and they're offering wireless broadband to all households. so I might have to think about that. 

Socialist Alternative - That's the old Militant if I recall rightly and Andy Price is a nice sort of chap, but I can't find my donkey jacket.

Finally there's Respect, who I'd normally consider, but they're standing Karen Tyre. Nice girl, who I once had a snog with, but she is a bit of a robotrot - and nuts to boot.

Who's it gonna be? This is my only chance to excersise my democratic rights for a couple of years. Out of 14 different parties I'm at a bit of a loss who to choose. Why oh why have the Natural Law Party split?

Please help me Urban, before I shit in the envelope and join the anarchists.


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 21, 2007)

You're just trying to start an argument


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## Karac (Apr 21, 2007)

Id vote Plaid-though id think about the Socialist Equality Party with that free wireless broadband thing.(who are they?-the old wrp?)
Id probably also consider the Socialist Alternative-Andy Price is a nice guy and i think i snogged his daughter at a party at his house


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## Pete the Greek (Apr 21, 2007)

Well if you are not going for one of the main three (and I would advise Tory but that aint gonna happen) then I think Green would be the best way forward.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 21, 2007)

Im facing similar dilemas myself at the mo... I have no idea who to vote for because frankly they all see a pile of poop.
Im willing to be informed if anyone here has anything they would like to share minus slagging plaids treatment of dogs


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## geminisnake (Apr 21, 2007)

No independents standing? I have voted for who looks the least sleazy before


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## Dic Penderyn (Apr 22, 2007)

Everybody seems to think that there isn't anybody worth supporting, Somebody should do somthing about it, perhaps nobody is the answer...


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## fractionMan (Apr 22, 2007)

Just shit in the envelope and be done with it


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## Dic Penderyn (Apr 22, 2007)

Does anybody who isn't already a supporter of one of the leftist sects ever vote for them?

Otherwise which sect do people who are pro-leftist vote for? They're all so simular.

I think it must have somthing to do with the name, to the uninformed 'The Socialist Party'  would appear the obvious choice whilst Socialist Alternative seems 'people's front of judea'tastic. "Socialist Labour" must appeal to some I guess.


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## nogojones (Apr 22, 2007)

> Does anybody who isn't already a supporter of one of the leftist sects ever vote for them?



I have done in the past, but I'm quite new to this voting lark. Only voted once before the poll tax then vanished until about 4 years ago. I've come to conclusion that those 13 years of disenfranchisemant (is that a real word?) didn't realy matter as there was fuck all to vote for anyway.



> Id vote Plaid-though id think about the Socialist Equality Party with that free wireless broadband thing.(who are they?-the old wrp?)
> Id probably also consider the Socialist Alternative-Andy Price is a nice guy and i think i snogged his daughter at a party at his house



I can see a theme developing here. First person to claim they fucked the Christian Peoples Alliance party candidate wins a pack of hob nobs.


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## neprimerimye (Apr 22, 2007)

Karac said:
			
		

> Id vote Plaid-though id think about the Socialist Equality Party with that free wireless broadband thing.(who are they?-the old wrp?)
> Id probably also consider the Socialist Alternative-Andy Price is a nice guy and i think i snogged his daughter at a party at his house



The Socialist Equality Party is a descendent of the old WRP. They are based in the USA. Essentially an utterly irrelevant sect by the standards of irrelevant sects. Dropped their hard copy publications some years ago and began the WSWS web site which as a professional looking site won them a bit of backing from kids roaming the net. Basically looneytunes.


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 25, 2007)

Interestingly the leader of this group is CEO of a big printing company:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=205121

http://community.livejournal.com/trotskyism/



> I know of two men. One of them is the leader of a small Trotskyist political party in the United States. He is known as David North. The other is the CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, a company that earns 25 million dollars a year according to its website. They call him David W. Green.
> 
> For nearly 30 years, Mr. North ran his political party and Mr. Green ran his business. Mr. North gave speeches about the exploitation of the working class. Mr. Green exploited his workers, deriving surplus value from their unpaid labor. Mr. North thundered against the corporations that dominate American political life. Mr. Green sought those corporations out as clients, and probably did lunch with some of their executives. Mr. North would talk about the disgusting climate of corporate greed that pervaded the American cultural atmosphere. Mr. Green helped actualize that corporate greed by printing advertisements to help them push their products on consumers.
> 
> ...


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 25, 2007)

I might research this info., he's speaking in Cardiff on Friday it might be funny to ask him about it


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## lewislewis (Apr 26, 2007)

If he was loaded, why would he bother running a Trot sect?


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 26, 2007)

Shit in an envelope and send it to George Galloway  

That really is a piss poor choice of candidates.  

Might as well  write 'none of the above' or start your own localist party.


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## neprimerimye (Apr 26, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> If he was loaded, why would he bother running a Trot sect?



North was a member of the old Workers League way back in the early 1970's if not before to my certain knowledge when it was still the USA franchise of Healys ICFI. One can ony assume that he obtained his capital by bilking the members of the group in a manner similar to that of the Barnes clique. I would imagine that he continues to run his dreadful little sect for reasons of egoism and, surprisingly for some perhaps, because he actually believes his schtik.


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## lewislewis (Apr 26, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> North was a member of the old Workers League way back in the early 1970's if not before to my certain knowledge when it was still the USA franchise of Healys ICFI. One can ony assume that he obtained his capital by bilking the members of the group in a manner similar to that of the Barnes clique. I would imagine that he continues to run his dreadful little sect for reasons of egoism and, surprisingly for some perhaps, because he actually believes his schtik.



Cheers for the info. Healy, that name rings a bell, something to do with informing some regime about trade unionists and socialist opponents abroad? Or am I getting it horribly wrong?


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## neprimerimye (Apr 27, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Cheers for the info. Healy, that name rings a bell, something to do with informing some regime about trade unionists and socialist opponents abroad? Or am I getting it horribly wrong?



No old Gerry Healy is the piece of shite you're thinking of alright. His printing operation, notice a pattern, was financed by contracts to print publications for Arab tyrants. The price he paid was to have his supporters inform on Stalinist party members and trades unionists who oppsed the regime of Saddam in Iraq.

David North was a part of that operation endorsing and taking part in all of Healys many atrocities other than his well attested serial sexual abuse of young female members of the WRP. Even today Norths SEP sells literature that claims that the very bodyguards of Leon Trotsky were KGB and CIA agents.

Healy died in Vanessa Redgraves back room btw.


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## Hocus Eye. (Apr 27, 2007)

You cannot shit in the envelope unless you have already applied for a postal vote.  I think the deadline has passed now.  It would be a bit impractical to shit in the voting box because it has a narrow slit and is usually on a table.

In desperation I voted Green this time last year.  David Icke has nothing to do with them and if I thought they were hippies that would please me.  However they aren't.  Some of their policies are interventionist in a way we would have expected of an Old Labour party back in the days when the world was black and white.  They do lack a Socialist analysis though.


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## chainsaw cat (Apr 27, 2007)

If the Tories ain't going to win anyway, indulge yourself and shit in the envelope. If they have the ghost of a chance, make fucking sure you vote for whoever will keep them out, even if it's Keith Harris and Orville.


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## chainsaw cat (Apr 27, 2007)

Hocus Eye. said:
			
		

> You cannot shit in the envelope unless you have already applied for a postal vote.  I think the deadline has passed now.  *It would be a bit impractical to shit in the voting box because it has a narrow slit and is usually on a table.*
> .




a) a powerful curry
b) stilts


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## ICB (Apr 27, 2007)

Kirsty, she's fit


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## lewislewis (Apr 27, 2007)

chainsaw cat said:
			
		

> If the Tories ain't going to win anyway, indulge yourself and shit in the envelope. If they have the ghost of a chance, make fucking sure you vote for whoever will keep them out, even if it's Keith Harris and Orville.



The Tories are in third place here, it is a Labour-Plaid contest.


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## chainsaw cat (Apr 29, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The Tories are in third place here, it is a Labour-Plaid contest.




Gwlad, Gwlad.....

vote plaid.


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## Gavin Bl (Apr 29, 2007)

Given the Iraq war, and hopelessnes of the various sects, I'd probably vote Plaid for a leftish, greenish, social democratic type that has a chance of winning, on better than nothing basis.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 29, 2007)

chainsaw cat said:
			
		

> Gwlad, Gwlad.....
> 
> vote plaid.



why???


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## rhys gethin (Apr 29, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> why???



Because nobody will take any notice whatever of any other vote, obviously.   They just think we are half-witted sheep - compare the attention and influence Scotland gets, and ask why.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 29, 2007)

But... again why??
 Give me a good reason to vote for them.
Like Ive said Im completely undecided.... Im open to info, arguments
"you have to vote for plaid cos nobody else listens to us" doesnt cut it


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## lewislewis (Apr 29, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> But... again why??
> Give me a good reason to vote for them.
> Like Ive said Im completely undecided.... Im open to info, arguments
> "you have to vote for plaid cos nobody else listens to us" doesnt cut it



Because the more votes and seats Plaid gets, the higher the likelihood of Wales having the power to govern itself. How can we change things here when we are governed from London?
Do you think the people in Westminster, when making decisions about the 'war on terror' and all that bollocks, give a second thought to the other nations they are supposed to be governing? They have far more important things on their hands than us, and if we governed ourselves we could be removed from all this terrorism, Iraq, ID cards and racism shite. 
Why should Wales ever be involved in Iraq ? It is bizarre, we have no connection whatsoever.

Of course, Iraq isn't the most important issue was just an example.

The UK is a trap designed to use Wales as a peripheral region, a source for cheap labour etc. We pay our taxes to the London war machine, we should pay them instead to the Cardiff machine which albeit unpleasant, won't be bombing the Third World any time soon  

Iraq aside, what about the health service. Misrule by bureacrats who are mostly not even in Wales has caused chaos. As has the London obsession with PFI schemes, which we have started to avoid in Wales. 

The 'Welsh' way of doing things is alot different to the things they discuss in Westminster, we are all about people-centred decisions and keeping things local, decentralise everything.

Also once we get full self-government for Wales, you can change your vote accordingly if you like  

So LMHF, I tried my best! Lindsay Whittle is your man in Caerphilly, top bloke and honest!


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 29, 2007)

I know who the candidates are, the place is full of vote plaid signs.


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## lewislewis (Apr 29, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I know who the candidates are, the place is full of vote plaid signs.



I heard a rumour that Ron Davies standing will take some of Labour's vote away and let Plaid win.


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## militant atheist (Apr 30, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Like Ive said Im completely undecided.... Im open to info, arguments


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## Swan (Apr 30, 2007)

Y Byd ar Bedwar 7.25pm
Are you bored by the promises of politicians? Well Tuesday night voters get their chance to demand answers. Y Byd ar Bedwar has selected a panel of four to question candidates. Will they freeze under the spotlight? Or will they persuade you to give their party a vote on May 3rd?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 30, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I heard a rumour that Ron Davies standing will take some of Labour's vote away and let Plaid win.



smug bastard, cant stand the bloke


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## lewislewis (May 1, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> smug bastard, cant stand the bloke



I wouldn't vote for him either


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## chainsaw cat (May 1, 2007)

Wot, in Sussex???!!!?

eta quote...


_*Given the Iraq war, and hopelessnes of the various sects, I'd probably vote Plaid for a leftish, greenish, social democratic type that has a chance of winning, on better than nothing basis.*_


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## chainsaw cat (May 1, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> why???




'cos they are decent (by the standards of politics) and conviction politicians. They'll try and argue you round in the pub. They don't follow the party line necessarily. Welsh is dead sexy on a woman. Within limits, nationalism - or rather, love of your nation - is a Good Thing, and moreover, they may well keep the Tory fuckers out in the occasional seat.


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## lewislewis (May 1, 2007)

chainsaw cat said:
			
		

> 'cos they are decent (by the standards of politics) and conviction politicians. They'll try and argue you round in the pub. They don't follow the party line necessarily. Welsh is dead sexy on a woman. Within limits, nationalism - or rather, love of your nation - is a Good Thing, and moreover, they may well keep the Tory fuckers out in the occasional seat.



Nationalism is an interesting thing to discuss. Plaid have never compared our nationalism to that of any other state. Gwynfor Evans, Plaid's main thinker, stated "there are as many nationalisms as there are countries". I am proud of Welsh nationalism, it is a vibrant, progressive phenomeon and is the only kind of politics left in Wales that is honest and passionate. 

It is not a coincidence that Plaid's AM's are rated (in the recent Western Mail study) the most active and dynamic of the Welsh Assembly's questionable group of politicians. It's because we're the only party that really gives a crap about this country. The others just want to prop up the same old Thatcherite/Blairite consensus, although in fairness Rhodri Morgan has deviated from Blairism in some places, it has been modest and has not really met what we wanted or needed from devolution.

Imagine if Plaid were in power. I'm not a starry eyed hack and don't think the people leading this party are supermen, far from it, but honestly now, how could Wales not be transformed by a Plaid government?

I would also encourage anyone in Wales who supports social justice, supports self-government for Wales, tolerates the Welsh language and is an anti-racist, to join Plaid. It is the only hope left for Wales and the only party that has honestly taken the fall out when it comes to mistakes.


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## lewislewis (May 1, 2007)

Plaid's first ten pieces of legislation if they get into power-

1) A Patients Rights contract 

2) New Welsh language legislation 

3) Energy efficiency scheme with targets 

4) Grants for first time buyers 

5) The extension of child care provision 

6) New housing legislation to extend social housing powers 

7) The extension of compulsory education or training to the age of 18 

8) Mental Health legislation for Wales 

9) The introduction of the single transferable voting system for local government 

10) Legislation to protect the Welsh coastal environment


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## nogojones (May 1, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Plaid's first ten pieces of legislation if they get into power-
> 
> 1) A Patients Rights contract
> 
> ...




Is that trying to sell us Plaid?

All okish, but not particularly inspiring. Sort of a Welsh Lib dem. Come on now people didn't fight and die for "The introduction of the single transferable voting system for local government " and a "patients rights contract". Fuck me! who thought them slogans up? John Majors think tank?

I'm tempted to go for the free broadband, even if it means I get sexually harrassed my members of the central committe.


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## LilMissHissyFit (May 2, 2007)

welsh lib dem was what I thought- although not unappealing on face value
any ideas where the money is coming from?


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

nogojones said:
			
		

> Is that trying to sell us Plaid?
> 
> All okish, but not particularly inspiring. Sort of a Welsh Lib dem. Come on now people didn't fight and die for "The introduction of the single transferable voting system for local government " and a "patients rights contract". Fuck me! who thought them slogans up? John Majors think tank?
> 
> I'm tempted to go for the free broadband, even if it means I get sexually harrassed my members of the central committe.



Well not really, I find it really unlikely anyone on this forum is going to vote for Plaid based on things i've posted! I'm just doing my bit to get political debate going   And maybe people would then look into the party more if intertested...

These aren't emotive or inspiring policies I agree, they're simple policies which we could actually and easily put forward if elected. Not much spin or anything but they would all make a difference to people's quality of life. They are ideas that people have suggested to Plaid during the last eighteen months when Plaid members went around Wales talking to people. Also we have a far greater chance of winning the election than the Socialist Equality Party, so your vote wouldn't be wasted (your regional vote, anywhere in Wales, would almost certainly win us a seat wherever you live).

The money will be coming from the tax payer and our fraternal comrades in Brussells and London, come on, none of those policies listed will cost much.

The most important thing if Plaid wins is that then, in 2011 we can have a referendum on full law-making powers for the Assembly.


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> welsh lib dem was what I thought- although not unappealing on face value
> any ideas where the money is coming from?



The policies listed aren't expensive and are affordable in the budget the Assembly put out last year. Of course, that budget only went ahead once Plaid had fought for extra funding for education. If Plaid hadn't won that victory then colleges and universities would've had to make cuts.


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## zog (May 2, 2007)

> so your vote wouldn't be wasted



I have that sinking feeling that whoever I vote for my vote will be wasted.


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> I have that sinking feeling that whoever I vote for my vote will be wasted.



We've only ever had Labour and Tory rule in our life times, why not try someone different? At least then you can say you've tried.

If Plaid win and it's still a load of shit and I had voted for them, then i'd be well within my rights to complain. Of course voting at the ballot box isn't the be all and end all of politics but it doesn't take much effort at the end of the day.


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## nogojones (May 2, 2007)

> The most important thing if Plaid wins is that then, in 2011 we can have a referendum on full law-making powers for the Assembly.



...but that in my eyes doesn't seem that important. I don't realy care where the laws are made, but more about the quality of the laws being made.

...and realy it's only a referendum about it and in 5 years time! Very dynamic.


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

nogojones said:
			
		

> ...but that in my eyes doesn't seem that important. I don't realy care where the laws are made, but more about the quality of the laws being made.
> 
> ...and realy it's only a referendum about it and in 5 years time! Very dynamic.



Yeah but the laws will be more in touch with us if they're actually made in our country! Rather than in London!

Message from Ieuan Wyn Jones regarding the tenth anniversary of Tony Blair's coming to power:

“Blair’s record has been of widening wealth inequalities; a million manufacturing jobs lost; creeping privatisation of public services; a disastrous war in Iraq which has undermined international law and increased the security threat for people living on these isles; the emergence of spin dominated politics; the reliance on means testing of benefits; the privatisation of public assets such as Royal Mint, The Tote and Air Traffic Control; a taxations system on expenditure not income; tax free status for non domiciled billionaires; a PFI debt burden of over £160bn and rising; a fundamental undermining of civil liberties; a callous attack on public sector jobs; real term pay cuts for public sector workers such as nurses; and a decision to renew Trident at an expected cost of over £70bn.” 

“For all these reasons, the people of Wales should give Blair the send off he deserves by voting Plaid twice on Thursday.”


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## Gavin Bl (May 2, 2007)

chainsaw cat said:
			
		

> Wot, in Sussex???!!!?



Assuming I still lived in Wales, you lemon!


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2007)

The main thing is to remember that fundamental change won't come through electing XYZ to the assembly or council chamber or parliament.  

Every progressive reform has been fought for and won by ordinary working people at the grassroots not handed to us from above.

The question is which party wants to organise in the workplace, union, on the streets and in our working class communities to involve the greatest number of people in the process of building grassroots democracy?

*TEN GOOD REASONS TO JOIN RESPECT IN WALES:

1. To End low pay and demand a living wage for all workers. 
We call for a minimum wage of £8 per hour.

2. To tax the rich not working people to fund public services. 

3. To fight for free education for all. We call for the restoration of a full living grant, abolition of all student fees and defend comprehensive education. 

4. To defend council housing and build more sustainable council housing. We stand for cheap, affordable housing for all workers, close to their place of work. 

5. To repeal the Tory anti-Trade Union laws and build a rank and file movement of trade unionists to fight New Labour, Plaid, LibDems and Tories corporate agenda.

6. To defend pensions and fight for a massive increase. 

7. To stop attacks on asylum seekers, immigrants & Muslims. 
We oppose prejudice of any kind, including racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia and discrimination on the basis of disability.  We say refugees are welcome here.

8. To build opposition to Bush/Blair oil wars and international solidarity with workers of all countries. 

9. To put people and the environment before profit and build a massive, grassroots movement to save the planet. 

10. To end privatisation and re-nationalise all the privatised industries and utilities.*

Not a particularly radical programme but unity to fight for these goals will be a start.  For more info. see: www.cardiffrespect.blogspot.com


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## chilango (May 2, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The question is which party wants to organise in the workplace, union, on the streets and in our working class communities to involve the greatest number of people in the process of building grassroots democracy?



Thats the Green Party innit?


You still in Respect then?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> Thats the Green Party innit?



The Green Party in Cardiff don't even seem to organise any grassroots activity on the issue of the environment that I've seen, so little chance of them doing anything on any of the other issues.  It might be different elsewhere but here they seem to just be an election machine.  There top candidate is an ex-Policeman and was quite offensive to a friend of mine.


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The main thing is to remember that fundamental change won't come through electing XYZ to the assembly or council chamber or parliament.
> 
> Every progressive reform has been fought for and won by ordinary working people at the grassroots not handed to us from above.
> 
> ...



Well there we have it.
I expect a landslide for the Respect islamist-trot coalition tomorrow, a veritable ringing endorsement from the people of Wales that these are the guys we need running our country.


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## Gavin Bl (May 2, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Well there we have it.
> I expect a landslide for the Respect islamist-trot coalition tomorrow, a veritable ringing endorsement from the people of Wales that these are the guys we need running our country.



come on now lewis, as unachievable shopping lists go, its a good one. I just don't like the way a load of leftwing demands are put up, with the full knowledge that there is no chance of getting them, in the hope that a small percentage of the disillusioned will then drift into the swp. Its a trick that worked well on me a few years ago... and it's kinda dishonest really.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2007)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> come on now lewis, as unachievable shopping lists go, its a good one. I just don't like the way a load of leftwing demands are put up, with the full knowledge that there is no chance of getting them, in the hope that a small percentage of the disillusioned will then drift into the swp. Its a trick that worked well on me a few years ago... and it's kinda dishonest really.



If you don't stand for something - you will fall for anything - just ask Lewislewis.

In fact, I suspect that we will do miserably tomorrow, but objectively the possibility of building a left wing alternative to Plaid/New Labour is here in Wales.  While neither Tommy Sheridan or his SSP colleagues have achieved many concrete reforms in Scotland (and also flirt with electoralism and nationalism), having these left wing voices in the mainstream is surely a good thing?

All these demands are fairly reasonable and I don't think are unachievable they do challenge the existing set up and neoliberal consensus.  In fact, I'm a little embarrased about how un-radical they are.

Surely, it is better to set yourself goals to fight for than accept that the only future is Plaid or New Labour in the Assembly and the nine-to-five nightmare?

2000 years ago universal suffrage probably seemed utopian.  The fact that such a modest set of demands can attract victriol from a Plaid member shows how un-left wing they are.


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## Gavin Bl (May 2, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> 2000 years ago universal suffrage probably seemed utopian.



Yes, and if you had set up an organisation demanding it as a matter of urgency, you would only have had to see 95 or so generations of members die before they got it.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2007)

*I fought the law - and the law won*




			
				Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Yes, and if you had set up an organisation demanding it as a matter of urgency, you would only have had to see 95 or so generations of members die before they got it.



Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Better to have fought and lost miserably than never to have fought at all


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
> 
> Better to have fought and lost miserably than never to have fought at all



While you wank over Zapata quotes, i'll be thinking about more important things like jobs, welfare, my health and well-being, the environment, the state of my local area and whether anyone wants to blow my country up.

If you want left-wing voices in the mainstream, why are you standing against the party of Leanne Wood and Adam Price?
You're upset really because we have a vibrant Welsh left alternative to Labour and you aren't part of it.

Respect is not a serious political party it is a recruitment front for the SWP, a party which once rejected electoral politics altogether might I add! And then called for socialists to vote for New Labour! Lol! Udo will be unable to defend this.

Gavin the SWP nearly recruited me too when I was in Cardiff and several years younger, went to one meeting to see what it was all about. I don't mind working to help a cause, but if I wanted to be a newspaper salesman I wouldn't have bothered going to University.
I am torn between tolerating the SWP as a political irrelevance and a joke, or abhorring them for their electoral deceit and alliances with Islamist clerics.


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## neprimerimye (May 2, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Respect is not a serious political party it is a recruitment front for the SWP, a party which once rejected electoral politics altogether might I add! And then called for socialists to vote for New Labour! Lol! Udo will be unable to defend this.



On a matter of fact the SWP has never rejected electoral politics in toto. What the SWP has always said, quite correctly, is that there is no parliamentary or reformist road to socialism.

Tactically the SWP and its forerunners always understood that standing in elections was a third rate question and could only ever be used as a platform for socialist propaganda. Interestingly the only member of the group ever elected as an MP, while a member in good standing as a number of former members are currently in Westminster, was swiftly expelled from the organisation. Rightly so.

I note in passing that it absolutely correct to advocate a vote for the labour party even today given its organic connection to the workers movement and the consciousness amongst some sections of the class that continues to exist as a result. On the other hand it is always wrong to vote for petty nationalists.

The idea that the SWP, which is losing membership, uses Respect as a recruitment front is funny. Where that populist party has some marginal reality the SWP are, as a rule, treated with contempt by their erstwhile allies. Save the SWP by voting for anybody but Respect!


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2007)

There is no parliamentary or reformist road to socialism, yet there is a road to socialism throught selling newspapers?


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> There is no parliamentary or reformist road to socialism, yet there is a road to socialism throught selling newspapers?


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## lewislewis (May 3, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I note in passing that it absolutely correct to advocate a vote for the labour party even today given its organic connection to the workers movement and the consciousness amongst some sections of the class that continues to exist as a result. On the other hand it is always wrong to vote for petty nationalists.



Sorry but I disagree here. That workers stuff is bollocks because of what Labour stands for nowadays. Do you think Labour's leadership gives a toss about class? What's pretty certain is that there is no road to socialism through voting for the Labour party, and that your nice vote for the workers movement and class consciousness props up the imperialist war machine.

The connection or organic link is only there on paper, and that kind of Labour voting is the reason they get away with murdering Iraqi kids. It is the most retarded and petty behaviour ever to afflict our nation.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2007)

Lewislewis offers us a very bleak future.  Apparently to ask to enjoy some of the rather modest social provision that my parents and grandparents enjoyed - such as free education, a decent pension, a welfare state etc. - is idealistic and lunacy, instead realism says the best we can hope for is a Plaid/New Labour coalition.

I am not attacking individual Plaid candidates but the idea that Plaid as a whole offers any alternative to Labour:  A plague on both your houses I say.


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## lewislewis (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Lewislewis offers us a very bleak future.  Apparently to ask to enjoy some of the rather modest social provision that my parents and grandparents enjoyed - such as free education, a decent pension, a welfare state etc. - is idealistic and lunacy, instead realism says the best we can hope for is a Plaid/New Labour coalition.
> 
> I am not attacking individual Plaid candidates but the idea that Plaid as a whole offers any alternative to Labour:  A plague on both your houses I say.



We have more likelihood of enjoying social provision if we govern ourselves. None of the potential governments in London want to help us so we must take more decisions for ourselves. Also there is something deeply unjust about areas of our policy being wholly controlled by Westminster.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Tactically the SWP and its forerunners always understood that standing in elections was a third rate question and could only ever be used as a platform for socialist propaganda. Interestingly the only member of the group ever elected as an MP, while a member in good standing as a number of former members are currently in Westminster, was swiftly expelled from the organisation. Rightly so.


Which MP are you referring to?


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## llantwit (May 3, 2007)

But Plaid government would not mean we'd be 'governing ourselves' LewisLewis. The neo-liberal socio-economic structures that any more independent government in Cardiff Bay would be operating within preclude the possibility of any but the most marginal and cosmetic reforms. Udo's totally laudable shopping list will always be regarded with scorn by any government in Cardiff at the present economic and social conjuncture.


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Which MP are you referring to?



See the following for the full story.

http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backissu.htm

Revolutionary History Vol.7 No.1

Adrift in the Rapids of Racism (Syd Bidwell 1917-1997), John McIlroy


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> We have more likelihood of enjoying social provision if we govern ourselves. None of the potential governments in London want to help us so we must take more decisions for ourselves. Also there is something deeply unjust about areas of our policy being wholly controlled by Westminster.



Frankly you miss the point that it no longer matters very much where we are governed from. Not when many of the most important decisions in society are taken by MNC's and other unelected bodies.

I further note that welfare provision has in the past grown regardless of Wales being governed from London. In grew, for example, under the 1945-51 Labour government out of fear on the part of the boss clas that the working classes would stage a revolution. it grew again during the 1950's and 1960's as a result of the expansion of the economy.

One cannot but conclude that the growth of welfare provision is not related to where a legislature sits but to the strength of the working class and/or economic growth rates.


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Sorry but I disagree here. That workers stuff is bollocks because of what Labour stands for nowadays. Do you think Labour's leadership gives a toss about class? What's pretty certain is that there is no road to socialism through voting for the Labour party, and that your nice vote for the workers movement and class consciousness props up the imperialist war machine.
> 
> The connection or organic link is only there on paper, and that kind of Labour voting is the reason they get away with murdering Iraqi kids. It is the most retarded and petty behaviour ever to afflict our nation.



It's completely besides the point what Labour stands for now. It has always, with one exception, backed Britains imperialist wars. What matters is that core sections of the organised working class continue to consider it, on the basis of past experience, to be their party. Less so than ever before i agree but thats another point.

Btw workers have no nation.


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## lewislewis (May 3, 2007)

I feel that today some of them will break with Labour and vote for Plaid instead.


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## llantwit (May 3, 2007)

I feel that if this happens it will be done in half-hearted resignation, and with the near certain knowledge that this gesture will make very little difference to their lives or the issues they care about.


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I feel that today some of them will break with Labour and vote for Plaid instead.



Of course the real story is that only a small number of people will even bother to vote today. All of the parties fill them with inertia it would appear.

Can't say i blame them but for my part I'm off to vote after booking a seat to see Sunno)))). Yippeee!!!!


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## llantwit (May 3, 2007)

Yup. 62% didn't vote last time, which truly calls into question the legitimacy of the institution.


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## lewislewis (May 3, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Of course the real story is that only a small number of people will even bother to vote today. All of the parties fill them with inertia it would appear.
> 
> Can't say i blame them but for my part I'm off to vote after booking a seat to see Sunno)))). Yippeee!!!!



Good band! You're into Isis too aren't you, I seem to remember?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2007)

Bet'cha Neppy voted Labour on both papers!


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## Baron Samedi (May 3, 2007)

OI! Udo - answer the question on the Nazi scum thread


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2007)

Will answer when I can be bothered, too lazy today!

Also been meaning to refute pro-nuclear Tim on that thread real awhile back.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> See the following for the full story.
> 
> http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backissu.htm
> 
> ...



No link to the article can't you just sumarise?


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## chilango (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Will answer when I can be bothered, too lazy today!
> 
> Also been meaning to refute pro-nuclear Tim on that thread real awhile back.




...and _my_ question Udo!


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Bet'cha Neppy voted Labour on both papers!



Indeed I did Udo and advised the readership of neprimerimye blog to do likewise. You are welcome to argue to the contrary on that blog btw. I note that on the Cardiff Respect blog, of which you are webmaster, you censor opinions that do not accord with your own.

http://neprimerimye.blogspot.com/


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> No link to the article can't you just sumarise?



Bidwell was a founder member of the SRG having been a member of the WIL/RCP previously. The SRG was an entrist grouping and Bidwell became an MP while a member of IS. He refused to accept the discipline of the organisation and was expelled. His revolt was in part motivated by his repudiation of the organisations total opposition to all immigration controls and capitulation to racism. Now buy the bloody journal.


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## Gavin Bl (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Lewislewis offers us a very bleak future.



Oi, you just offered me




			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
> 
> Better to have fought and lost miserably than never to have fought at all



which is pretty bleak - I'll take some sort of social democratic hotch-potch over dying any day of the week.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2007)

Neppy states we should vote Labour because it has an organic relationship to the working class.

I would question that.  Increasingly that relationship is fracturing.

I can't see how a Labour AM getting in where I live will in anyway take forward the class struggle or give confidence to people to fight back against the system.


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## chilango (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Neppy states we should vote Labour because it has an organic relationship to the working class.



That is the classic Leninist position though.



> I would question that.



Is that why the SWP expelled you? 



> Increasingly that relationship is fracturing.



Fractured a long time ago.



> I can't see how a Labour AM getting in where I live will in anyway take forward the class struggle or give confidence to people to fight back against the system



For once I agree with you.


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## neprimerimye (May 3, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Neppy states we should vote Labour because it has an organic relationship to the working class.
> 
> I would question that.  Increasingly that relationship is fracturing.
> 
> I can't see how a Labour AM getting in where I live will in anyway take forward the class struggle or give confidence to people to fight back against the system.



Learn to read Udo. I stated that Labour has an organic connection with the organised working class. That remains true in that most trade unions retain a link with the Labour Party and a majority of their members continue to pay the political levy.

It also remains true that layers of the working class retain the belief that the Labour Party in some sense is their party and qualitatively different from the other bourgeois parties. That belief is now held by far fewer numbers of workers than at any time since the foundation of the Labour Party in my view.

Nonetheless that historically determined class consciousness is not to be despised or ignored unless one is a sectarian deaf to the views and needs of the mass of te working class. Which pretty much sums up the understanding of a member of that populist sect Respect does it not?

The idea that electing MP's or AM's will take the class struggle forward was always wrong. Most abjectly and pathetically when advocated by members of Respect in relation to Kitty Galloway.


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## Karac (May 3, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But Plaid government would not mean we'd be 'governing ourselves' LewisLewis. The neo-liberal socio-economic structures that any more independent government in Cardiff Bay would be operating within preclude the possibility of any but the most marginal and cosmetic reforms.


Your probably right there-but for fucks sake in the uk-we have have a semi feudal system-the house of lords still exists


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## osterberg (May 4, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Neppy states we should vote Labour because it has an organic relationship to the working class.
> 
> I would question that.  Increasingly that relationship is fracturing.
> 
> I can't see how a Labour AM getting in where I live will in anyway take forward the class struggle or give confidence to people to fight back against the system.


 
   I wouldn't question it,Nep's right.

I voted Labour in Cardiff North to keep the Tory out.I suppose that's a class vote.(Didn't work  ) Couldn't bring myself to vote for the petit bourgeois Plaid no matter how left they pretend to be.

 Where you live the LP candidate is a Labour left-winger , a trade unionist and a leading anti-war activist in Cardiff. I'd feel happier  voting for her than the Blairite we had in Cardiff North.


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## KeyboardJockey (May 4, 2007)

I'm coming to the conclusion that there are very few POSITIVE reasons for voting as there is no meaningful choice. 

The only reason I'm going to turn out to vote is for entirely negative reason of keeping the bnp out. 

Voluntarily disenfranchising myself as there is nobody worth voting for.


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## neprimerimye (May 4, 2007)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I wouldn't question it, Nep's right.


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## llantwit (May 4, 2007)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I wouldn't question it,Nep's right.


I honestly don't understand this vote Labour whilst holding your nose point of view. Arguing for voting Labour after they turned out to be more Thatcherite than Thatcher in government is just not an acceptable for me.


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## Dic Penderyn (May 4, 2007)

At current figures 56.6% of the electorate Voted Nobody! 

NOBODY WON!

NOTHING'S CHANGED!

As for voting against the BNP. 25,000 people voted FOR them, how you voted doesn't change that. If you want to oppose the BNP the polling booth isn't the place to do it. 

If you combine the BNP, UKIP and other assorted right wingers vote and compare that with the various socialists and commies; I think we can all agree the authoritarian left in wales is completely fucked. Perhaps all the socialists were voting labour?


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## osterberg (May 4, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I honestly don't understand this vote Labour whilst holding your nose point of view. Arguing for voting Labour after they turned out to be more Thatcherite than Thatcher in government is just not an acceptable for me.


  A Tory being elected where I live is not acceptable to me.


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## osterberg (May 4, 2007)

Dic Penderyn said:
			
		

> At current figures 56.6% of the electorate Voted Nobody!
> 
> NOBODY WON!
> 
> ...



  The more people who vote for any other party than the BNP means the BNP's percentage vote goes _down_ which is why the Vote Nobody campaign is childish and counterproductive.


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## llantwit (May 4, 2007)

Fair enough - I understand the reasoning in marginal seats, I guess. But you speak to many on the so called revolutionary left and it's not uncommon to hear a version of the insipid "vote labour with no illusions" argument (another variety being "vote Labour, and prepare to fight").


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## Dic Penderyn (May 4, 2007)

The more people who vote for minor parties like Respect, Green, Socialist Alternative or Communist the more likely that the BNP will be able to overtake one of the major parties on the regional list and win a seat. 

Just one of the reasons that all them campagins are fucking pointless and counterproductive.

Unless they win a seat the percentage of the vote is neither here nor there, except that so many people support them, anti-fascism must take place in the real world not the fucking polling station!


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I honestly don't understand this vote Labour whilst holding your nose point of view. Arguing for voting Labour after they turned out to be more Thatcherite than Thatcher in government is just not an acceptable for me.



Exactly. Plus they are the most arrogant bunch of wankers i've ever come across in politics. Perma-tanned, suited up, organic link to the working class? Whatever.


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## llantwit (May 4, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Exactly. Plus they are the most arrogant bunch of wankers i've ever come across in politics. Perma-tanned, suited up, organic link to the working class? Whatever.



There's the tans and the arrogance, too, of course. Forgot to mention that.


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## osterberg (May 4, 2007)

Dic Penderyn said:
			
		

> The more people who vote for minor parties like Respect, Green, Socialist Alternative or Communist the more likely that the BNP will be able to overtake one of the major parties on the regional list and win a seat.
> 
> Just one of the reasons that all them campagins are fucking pointless and counterproductive.
> 
> Unless they win a seat the percentage of the vote is neither here nor there, except that so many people support them, anti-fascism must take place in the real world not the fucking polling station!



 The BNP were standing on the list vote which is proportional representation 
which depends on percentages.

 Fascism should be fought on all fronts.That's both _outside_ and _inside_ the polling station.


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> There's the tans and the arrogance, too, of course. Forgot to mention that.



It is really unbelievable meeting some of their activists in person. Of course, can't judge the whole party by that, but i'm sure nobody will mind. 
Aaaaanyway

I'm very pleased this morning, especially with Llanelli where we whooped Labour, and Aberconwy where it wasn't certain we'd win. We outperformed our last results and increased our majorities in all our seats as far as I can tell.

Still waiting for the last regional list.

I'd like to congratulate Udo on Respect's 1,079 votes in South Wales Central. You lost to the SLP and the Christians, but at least you beat the Commies, Socialists and the other Christians.


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2007)

osterberg said:
			
		

> The BNP were standing on the list vote which is proportional representation
> which depends on percentages.
> 
> Fascism should be fought on all fronts.That's both _outside_ and _inside_ the polling station.



Good point. There results were stronger than most of the other minor parties, they didn't win a seat luckily but were only 2,000 votes off in North Wales.


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## llantwit (May 4, 2007)

How close did Dafydd Wigley get?


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## Brockway (May 4, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Indeed I did Udo and advised the readership of neprimerimye blog to do likewise. You are welcome to argue to the contrary on that blog btw. I note that on the Cardiff Respect blog, of which you are webmaster, you censor opinions that do not accord with your own.
> 
> http://neprimerimye.blogspot.com/



Good blog Nep. I'm with you on Altamont and the (wished for) bombing of Woodstock. One highlight of all the festival bilge though - Henry Rollins at the Ponty fringe.

Tories got in where I live. Gah!


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## ICB (May 4, 2007)

Pleased but unsuprised that Kirsty Williams romped back, she's a very good AM well-liked around here.  Just hope that if she becomes the next LD leader as predicted she won't take her eye off the local issues.

So -3 for Lab, +3 for PC, no change for the others with 8 left to come in.  Not much to ponder really although I suppose PC will be cheerful.

Labour took a kicking in England though, looks like Cameron could be in next GE.


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## Brockway (May 4, 2007)

I've never liked Kirsty Williams since that time she started blubbing on telly.  

Anyone know a good site with all the results with a proper breakdown of votes etc? How did the BNP do?


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## Dic Penderyn (May 4, 2007)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2007/welshasssembly_english/html/region_99999.stm

is what I looked at, dunno if there is another better one.


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## Brockway (May 4, 2007)

Dic Penderyn said:
			
		

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2007/welshasssembly_english/html/region_99999.stm
> 
> is what I looked at, dunno if there is another better one.



Cheers Dic.


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> How close did Dafydd Wigley get?



Not very close, unless we hadn't won Aberconwy, in which case he'd get straight in.


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## Dic Penderyn (May 4, 2007)

did he not really want the job then?


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## militant atheist (May 4, 2007)

Dic Penderyn said:
			
		

> As for voting against the BNP. 25,000 people voted FOR them



42,000


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## Karac (May 5, 2007)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Learn to read Udo. I stated that Labour has an organic connection with the organised working class. That remains true in that most trade unions retain a link with the Labour Party and a majority of their members continue to pay the political levy.


I dont know if agree with this-a handfull of Trade union leaders writing a fat cheque once a year payable to T.Blair is not an organic link.
How many union delegates attend their local Labor Party meetings?-
For me the Iraq war was the end of all that vote Labour as the least worst option nonsense.


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## lewislewis (May 6, 2007)

Karac said:
			
		

> I dont know if agree with this-a handfull of Trade union leaders writing a fat cheque once a year payable to T.Blair is not an organic link.
> How many union delegates attend their local Labor Party meetings?-
> For me the Iraq war was the end of all that vote Labour as the least worst option nonsense.



We cannot support parties that go to war against other countries, no matter what their link with the working class is.

From an international point of view, what would a fraternal worker in Iraq think if I told him I, as a worker, voted for the party that helped destroy his country?

Load of bollocks Nep.


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## lewislewis (May 6, 2007)

Dic Penderyn said:
			
		

> did he not really want the job then?



From what I understand, he felt us winning the constituencies was the main priority, his presence on the list DEFINITELY helped with that and with the vote nationally I can tell you! He was a kind of booster or special card we could play.

Personally if he can be persuaded to be a full-time politician i'd like him to try and return to Westminster, don't know if he wants to though.


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## neprimerimye (May 9, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> We cannot support parties that go to war against other countries, no matter what their link with the working class is.
> 
> From an international point of view, what would a fraternal worker in Iraq think if I told him I, as a worker, voted for the party that helped destroy his country?
> 
> Load of bollocks Nep.



It's a matter of critical support not letting the likes of Blair and Brown off the hook for their crimes. Now like it or not the majority of the organised workers movement does remain affiliated to the Labour Party. Which party, even now, is not homogenously behnd the New Labour project and the various wars. For example Labour Against the War was the only state wide body to take the struggle against New labour into the ranks of the organised working classes and I see no reason why socialists should turn their back on such comrades.

From an international point of view any Iraqi internationalist worker would judge socialists in this country by their program and positions on a series of questions not simply on the basis of placing a cross on a form once every few years.


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## neprimerimye (May 9, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Good blog Nep. I'm with you on Altamont and the (wished for) bombing of Woodstock. One highlight of all the festival bilge though - Henry Rollins at the Ponty fringe.
> 
> Tories got in where I live. Gah!



Ta very much like.

New Labour in Cardiff South.

The husband of my AM is a member of the CC of the NCP (LOL).


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