# “Red London” - Joke Stalinism?



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 13, 2018)

I have never been a Trotskyist, or particularly an apologist for them or their methods, but the one area in which they do have a Smidgeon of  my sympathy is being witch hunted ( historically murderously so) by Stalinists and “anti-imperialist” fellow travellers. The AWL are a tiny Trot group with not many friends on the left ( largely for having the temerity to question campist politics and the kind of  unquestioning package deal leftism that apologises for “anti -imperialist” dictators). But there appear to be outright lies about them circulating also. It seems that the jokey Stalinist apologists of “Red London” have targeted the AWL as a useful scapegoat for anything that opposes their campist “white working class” blue labourism. I have a certain amount of suspicion that some of “Red London” might be in these parts also. Is this AWL story accurate, or are they just sore at being bested by an anti-Trot alliance of convenience in Momentum?
Fake news hurts the left | Workers' Liberty


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## Pickman's model (May 13, 2018)

Any group that produces shrill vapid farting piffle like that in your link deserves what they get


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## cantsin (May 13, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> I have never been a Trotskyist, or particularly an apologist for them or their methods, but the one area in which they do have a Smidgeon of  my sympathy is being witch hunted ( historically murderously so) by Stalinists and “anti-imperialist” fellow travellers. The AWL are a tiny Trot group with not many friends on the left ( largely for having the temerity to question campist politics and the kind of  unquestioning package deal leftism that apologises for “anti -imperialist” dictators). But there appear to be outright lies about them circulating also. It seems that the jokey Stalinist apologists of “Red London” have targeted the AWL as a useful scapegoat for anything that opposes their campist “white working class” blue labourism. I have a certain amount of suspicion that some of “Red London” might be in these parts also. Is this AWL story accurate, or are they just sore at being bested by an anti-Trot alliance of convenience in Momentum?
> Fake news hurts the left | Workers' Liberty




enjoying seeing the reactionary  Trotcranks getting an attack of the vapours over these new young lefties....

_"Red London is not the vehicle for a more radical politics but it is certainly a vehicle for a certain kind of nihilism for people who have no moral boundaries. ."_

And pleased they got so comprehensively turned over in Lewisham - the dutstbin of history awaits .


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## butchersapron (May 13, 2018)

Beeley. But for fun.

Young? It's a load of 40 something pretend cho choo train drivers isn't it?


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## Shechemite (May 13, 2018)

There was some beef between Red London and Plan C a month or so ago IIRC


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## Pickman's model (May 13, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There was some beef between Red London and Plan C a month or so ago IIRC


And I should care why?


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## Shechemite (May 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> And I should care why?



God knows


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## Brainaddict (May 13, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> are they just sore at being bested by an anti-Trot alliance of convenience in Momentum?


Yes, very much so. And as someone who knows some of the people, it was more of an alliance of those who want a functioning local group rather than one controlled by a political cult. The reaction of the AWL has been to smear those young people involved in the democratic ousting of their leadership with the term Stalinist, even though you could count the number of Stalinists under the age of 30 in London on the fingers of one hand. The AWL in Lewisham are pathological liars and, it turns out, very bad losers


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## cantsin (May 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Beeley. But for fun.
> 
> Young? It's a load of 40 something pretend cho choo train drivers isn't it?



am confused by the Beeley link ?


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## cantsin (May 13, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There was some beef between Red London and Plan C a month or so ago IIRC



what was the gist of it ?


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## Riklet (May 13, 2018)

AWL can't even build a proper website, let alone a "party to replace capitalism" (lol)

I just had a look at the latest PDF of their paper and while I wouldn't pay for it, some bits are interesting and readable.

Problem with these Trots is theyre not really interested in doing anything other than shit flinging and building the party and bickering at meetings.  What is their relevance is 2018? This is not the 1930s.... so what stalinism exactly are they opposing?


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## Shechemite (May 13, 2018)

cantsin said:


> what was the gist of it ?



Apparently Red Londoners being sexist/satirical (depending who you ask) about some female Plan Cers. 

Third positionists vs liberal idpolers


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## butchersapron (May 13, 2018)

cantsin said:


> am confused by the Beeley link ?


They are the christian militia of the beeleyites.


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## Shechemite (May 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> They are the christian militia of the beeleyites.



And for the less well read amongst us?


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## butchersapron (May 13, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And for the less well read amongst us?


On that thread i mentioned them doing security for the beeley meeting at the Marx memorial library. Among them a well know dodgy person that i can't believe is still allowed to walk london unhindered.


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## Shechemite (May 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> On that thread i mentioned them doing security for the beeley meeting at the Marx memorial library. Among them a well know dodgy person that i can't believe is still allowed to walk london unhindered.



So I guess this answers Pickman's model ’s question upthread.


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## cantsin (May 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> On that thread i mentioned them doing security for the beeley meeting at the Marx memorial library. Among them a well know dodgy person that i can't believe is still allowed to walk london unhindered.



ffs, seriously ? 

Red London is all pretty recent asfaics, were they organising under a different name previously ?


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## Red Sky (May 13, 2018)

cantsin said:


> ffs, seriously ?
> 
> Red London is all pretty recent asfaics, were they organising under a different name previously ?



They're not an organisation are they? Just a meme page.


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## Dom Traynor (May 14, 2018)

cantsin said:


> ffs, seriously ?
> 
> Red London is all pretty recent asfaics, were they organising under a different name previously ?



The individuals involved have been around for a while


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## cantsin (May 14, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> They're not an organisation are they? Just a meme page.



"just a meme page " tend not to do things like  " security for the beeley meeting at the Marx memorial library" ime, maybe you know different


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## chilango (May 14, 2018)

Anybody from the Red London milieu post in here?


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## killer b (May 14, 2018)

chilango said:


> Anybody from the Red London milieu post in here?


probably, there's certainly... connections.


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## chilango (May 14, 2018)

killer b said:


> probably, there's certainly... connections.



Will we hear their take on this?


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## killer b (May 14, 2018)

Unlikely I'd guess. No-one has said owt so far.


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## chilango (May 14, 2018)

killer b said:


> Unlikely I'd guess. No-one has said owt so far.



I'm not surprised tbh.


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## killer b (May 14, 2018)

I do enjoy some of their stalin memes, I have to say. But there's some nutters in their orbit, as well a surprising amount of people on the left of the Labour party. I'm slightly surprised they haven't featured in the pages of the gutter press as part of an expose tbh. Reckon it's only a matter of time.


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## LDC (May 14, 2018)

One of the Red London lot spent some time in Rojava, did the slightly bonkers interview about it with Novara. Think he's the character butchersapron refers to.

Funnily enough he seems to have 'become' a Stalinist shortly after being kicked out of the anarchist scene.


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## Fozzie Bear (May 14, 2018)

Proletarian Democracy wannabes.


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## cantsin (May 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One of the Red London lot spent some time in Rojava, did the slightly bonkers interview about it with Novara. Think he's the character butchersapron refers to.
> 
> Funnily enough he seems to have 'become' a Stalinist shortly after being kicked out of the anarchist scene.



their meme game is strong at times, for sure


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## Red Sky (May 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One of the Red London lot spent some time in Rojava, did the slightly bonkers interview about it with Novara. Think he's the character butchersapron refers to.
> 
> Funnily enough he seems to have 'become' a Stalinist shortly after being kicked out of the anarchist scene.



Exactly. Hence the obsession with slagging off anarchists.


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## Brainaddict (May 15, 2018)

They are nobody really - their 'influence' online extends as far as their ability to make a good joke, and I very much doubt extends to actually influencing people towards Stalinist politics. I do feel the purpose of the AWL piece attacking these nobodies was to largely to get Stalinists and Lewisham Momentum people (who largely aren't) into the same article for smearing purposes.


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## The39thStep (May 15, 2018)

In what way are they Stalinist?


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## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> In what way are they Stalinist?



They’re not. Theyre strasserites.


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## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

Red-brown London


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## killer b (May 15, 2018)

I think it's a mistake to consider Red London nobodies - you might not like them or what they do, but they have a significant political reach right now in leftwing circles.


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## Brainaddict (May 15, 2018)

killer b said:


> I think it's a mistake to consider Red London nobodies - you might not like them or what they do, but they have a significant political reach right now in leftwing circles.


But is their reach about anything more than people wanting to share funny memes? Where is the real world influence happening?


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## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> But is their reach about anything more than people wanting to share funny memes? Where is the real world influence happening?



Apart from the Beeley event discussed upthread?


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## killer b (May 15, 2018)

I don't have any examples of real-world events which lead back to someone sharing a funny meme from Red London, but I thought it was pretty uncontroversial that sharing funny memes does influence people's politics and actions. It's culture war stuff.


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## Brainaddict (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Apart from the Beeley event discussed upthread?


Don't know if that is about influence though. People with shit politics are friends with other people with shit politics seemed to be the gist of that story, but I'm not convinced many of them are sucking many people into their worldview.


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## The39thStep (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> They’re not. Theyre strasserites.


With or without the jewish conspiracy?


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## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> With or without the jewish conspiracy?



1) everything about them reveals their third positionism

2) and that includes their happy association with antisemitic conspiracists


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## The39thStep (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> 1) everything about them reveals their third positionism
> 
> 2) and that includes their happy association with antisemitic conspiracists



I've never come across them tbh


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## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I've never come across them tbh



Fair enough


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## cantsin (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> They’re not. Theyre strasserites.



I know we're disagreeing elsewhere, so this isn't meant to be a continuum.of that..but when I read yr claim that RL were 'Third Positionists' , I was about to try and work out what this new use of the term meant... now ' Strasserite', and it's clear there is no new useage going on.

Is this even serious ? What's the point in equating Tankies with fascism, it's just liberal horsehoe bollocks, surely ? ( am wiling to listen here )


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## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

cantsin said:


> I know we're disagreeing elsewhere, so this isn't meant to be a continuum.of that..but when I read yr claim that RL were 'Third Positionists' , I was about to try and work out what this new use of the term meant... now ' Strasserite', and it's clear there is no new useage going on.
> 
> Is this even serious ? What's the point in equating Tankies with fascism, it's just liberal horsehoe bollocks, surely ? ( am wiling to listen here )



I’ll post on this later, currently out and about


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## Dom Traynor (May 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I've never come across them tbh


You’ve probably met their North West counterparts Red Cheadle


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## Magnus McGinty (May 15, 2018)

killer b said:


> I do enjoy some of their stalin memes, I have to say. But there's some nutters in their orbit, as well a surprising amount of people on the left of the Labour Party.



They’re all in the Labour Party predictably enough.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 15, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One of the Red London lot spent some time in Rojava, did the slightly bonkers interview about it with Novara. Think he's the character butchersapron refers to.
> 
> Funnily enough he seems to have 'become' a Stalinist shortly after being kicked out of the anarchist scene.



Used to post here years ago. I won’t comment on any rumours given they’re just that.


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## Sasaferrato (May 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> And I should care why?



When you are talking about groups that could hold their annual conference in a phone box, irrelevant is too grand a word to describe them.


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## cantsin (May 15, 2018)

Facebook meme pages tend not to have 'annual conferences' asfaik, but your contribution on these matters is much valued by all, as ever, am sure


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## The39thStep (May 16, 2018)

Dom Traynor said:


> You’ve probably met their North West counterparts Red Cheadle


Think they split after Rob lost his job as a librarian and met some alcoholic hippy ( I think Irish Garry used to be seeing her) who is into astrology .


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## The39thStep (May 16, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> When you are talking about groups that could hold their annual conference in a phone box, irrelevant is too grand a word to describe them.


Years ago Cockney Rebel came up with what was quite a complicated formula for measuring irrelevancy / impact .


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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 15, 2018)

This did make me laugh to be fair.


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## Fedayn (Jun 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> On that thread i mentioned them doing security for the beeley meeting at the Marx memorial library. Among them a well know dodgy person that i can't believe is still allowed to walk london unhindered.



Who is that person?


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## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2018)

Fedayn said:


> Who is that person?


That person is 'sandy hale'.


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## Fedayn (Jun 18, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> That person is 'sandy hale'.



New name on me.


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## Sasaferrato (Jun 18, 2018)

Why don't all those 'ist' groups unite? They could then hold their conferences in a Portakabin instead of a phone box.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2018)

Fetid Scot.


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## chilango (Jun 18, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why don't all those 'ist' groups unite? They could then hold their conferences in a Portakabin instead of a phone box.



Have you read the thread you're posting in?


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## killer b (Jun 18, 2018)

chilango said:


> Have you read the thread you're posting in?


He never does. Usually he just replies to whatever he thinks the thread title is about, doesn't even bother reading the OP. 

It might be funny if it wasn't so boring.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 18, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why don't all those 'ist' groups unite? They could then hold their conferences in a Portakabin instead of a phone box.



There was a communist, a royalist and a pianist in a porticabin...


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## Sasaferrato (Jun 18, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There was a communist, a royalist and a pianist in a porticabin...



That would work.  I was thinking more in term of Marxists, Leninists, Maoists, Trotskyites etc. Why Marxists but Trotskyites?


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## cantsin (Jun 19, 2018)

killer b said:


> He never does. Usually he just replies to whatever he thinks the thread title is about, doesn't even bother reading the OP.
> 
> It might be funny if it wasn't so boring.



been a on here over a decade, either too stupid or can't be bothered to pick up on / engage with even the most basic details...slightly tragic, deathly boring, narcissistic clown


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## JimW (Jun 19, 2018)

And to think they say we arbitrarily ban dull right-wingers!


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## killer b (Jun 19, 2018)

I'm led to believe there may have been a time where he argued his position with some amount of nuance and insight, but I'm fucked if I can remember it and I've been here 15 years.


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## Red Sky (Jun 25, 2018)

Oddly they've just come out in support of the UAF.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 25, 2018)

The Ulster Action Force?


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## Red Sky (Jun 25, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The Ulster Action Force?



Unite against Fascism you dunce.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 25, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Unite against Fascism you dunce.



Yes, which isn’t prefixed by ‘the’.



Red Sky said:


> Oddly they've just come out in support of the UAF.


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## Red Sky (Jun 25, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes, which isn’t prefixed by ‘the’.



That's just what every one calls them, as in "Have you seen what the Yoo Eh Eff have fucking done now?"


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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Oddly they've just come out in support of the UAF.


Not sure what numbers they bring to the fray but I'm sure there will be some justification about a united front . I'm old enough to remember when the CP referred to the SWP as the 'throw a brick party' when it came to anti fascism .


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## Red Sky (Jun 25, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Not sure what numbers they bring to the fray but I'm sure there will be some justification about a united front . I'm old enough to remember when the CP referred to the SWP as the 'throw a brick party' when it came to anti fascism .



"How many divisions have Red London ?" you might ask.


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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2018)

sleeping giant?


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## The Flying Pig (Jun 26, 2018)

you might find they have a lot more influence than most on here think.


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> you might find they have a lot more influence than most on here think.



Go on....


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## The Flying Pig (Jun 26, 2018)

I


chilango said:


> Go on....


It is best you do the leg work and find out for yourself.


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> I
> 
> It is best you do the leg work and find out for yourself.



Why's that?


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## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> you might find they have a lot more influence than most on here think.


The Cats Protection League probably have more influence than most on here tbh


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## LDC (Jun 26, 2018)

chilango said:


> Go on....



In the same ballpark are the CPGB-ML who have a (albeit small) presence in the city where I live and who turn up on demos/events with huge hammer and sickle and Syrian flags, and who push the whole bonkers anti-imperialism support of Assad/conspiracy theory stuff. Not a massive bunch, but I'd say they do have some impact.


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In the same ballpark are the CPGB-ML who have a (albeit small) presence in the city where I live and who turn up on demos/events with huge hammer and sickle and Syrian flags, and who push the whole bonkers anti-imperialism support of Assad/conspiracy theory stuff. Not a massive bunch, but I'd say they do have some impact.



So _exactly_ the sort of level of influence most on here might think?


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## LDC (Jun 26, 2018)

The main goal seems to be to make anything public that the left do look completely mad. They get 10/10 for effort for that.

It's always good to have a few 20 somethings turn up at your public antifascist meeting dressed as East German squaddies circa 1985 - just in case you're in danger of looking worryingly normal at any point.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 26, 2018)

this lot a bit red browny?


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## cantsin (Jun 26, 2018)

The chaps enjoying a right old love in with fellow meme-tankies Labor Wave ( who manage to mix bro love for DPRK and Assad, with Vaporwave aethetics ) ,

"
Red London you're such a good page.

saw your logo painted in Hackney Wick the other day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Laborwave Politburo of Agitation and Propaganda

all lulz aside, I 'd like to see the ( no doubt dweeby little student)  w*nker who says this to an Iraqi poster put on his arse :



Almoama Stf I allways want to fight side by side with socialist people but when i see u communists stand with dictators like bashar or Saddam i have second thoughts that i should allways remain only socialist iam an Arabic and i tell u people where living in hellbecause of his policies and iam iraqi and i can tell what hell my people saw because of Saddam those people are not socialist and know shit about it they use it as cover its ok to love lenin or che or ho chi minh because they fight for good causes
1
Manage

LikeShow More Reactions
 · Reply · 2h



Laborwave Politburo of Agitation and PropagandaYoure living in hell because of the United States, not Saddam. Youve been lied to your whole life man. Im sorry. If you dont want to learn more about Assad, then this isnt the page for you, and maybe you should go find some liberal shitposting group instead


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## killer b (Jun 27, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In the same ballpark are the CPGB-ML who have a (albeit small) presence in the city where I live and who turn up on demos/events with huge hammer and sickle and Syrian flags, and who push the whole bonkers anti-imperialism support of Assad/conspiracy theory stuff. Not a massive bunch, but I'd say they do have some impact.


Red London aren't in the same ballpark as the CPGB-ML lot at all, although some of their memes play on the mad tankie trope for lolz.


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## chilango (Jun 27, 2018)

Three pages in and I still don't really have the foggiest about Red London.


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## killer b (Jun 27, 2018)

It's mostly just a _proletarian democracy_ type shitposting page for young ex-trots on the Labour left.


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## Red Sky (Jun 27, 2018)

killer b said:


> It's mostly just a _proletarian democracy_ type shitposting page for young ex-trots on the Labour left.



Ex anarchos too I think.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 27, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Ex anarchos too I think.



For not by; although I’m not sure how anyone can know the audience - maybe killer b meant the authors.


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## killer b (Jun 27, 2018)

I've no idea who the authors are other than the ex-urb (who was an anarchist in his time here I'm sure?). It's easy enough to get a feel who the audience is though, by reading what the people sharing and commenting on their posts say.


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## imposs1904 (Jun 27, 2018)

They seem to reserve their special bile for the AWL, so my guess is that there will be an ex-AWLer somewhere in the mix.


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## Red Sky (Jun 27, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> For not by; although I’m not sure how anyone can know the audience - maybe killer b meant the authors.



By


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 27, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> By



His subsequent post explains he meant for.


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## krink (Jun 28, 2018)




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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 28, 2018)




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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 28, 2018)

Pretty sure KillerB meant that you can judge Red London's audience by the people who comment under their posts and share their stuff.


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## treelover (Jun 28, 2018)

post deleted


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 28, 2018)

So now we’re linking real names to board ones. Is there a statute of limitations where that’s allowed to happen or something?


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## treelover (Jun 28, 2018)

That is not his real name, it is the one on here, but I can delete it if required.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 28, 2018)

Posh boy's real name is mentioned pages back.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 28, 2018)

Can’t stop anyone naming people but there are rules about naming board names which should be upheld imo.


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## treelover (Jun 28, 2018)

I will delete my post, he did seem like a decent guy, and still involved in union stuff, etc.

anyone, R/L seem bizarre, but being anti SWP is a positive.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 28, 2018)

treelover said:


> I will delete my post, he did seem like a decent guy, and still involved in union stuff, etc.



Just edit the board name out.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 28, 2018)

The names are already linked on here and another thread.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 28, 2018)

seventh bullet said:


> The names are already linked on here and another thread.



I don’t think it’s right. I know he hasn’t posted in some time but isn’t not outing each other something that should be maintained?


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## imposs1904 (Jun 28, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


>



Anybody got that as an e-book?


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## seventh bullet (Jun 28, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t think it’s right. I know he hasn’t posted in some time but isn’t not outing each other something that should be maintained?



Take it up with the people doing the outing, and their reason/s for it.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 28, 2018)

seventh bullet said:


> Take it up with the people doing the outing, and their reason/s for it.



I was talking about the concept, not accusing you of it!  
It’s been part of here since year dot. If it doesn’t matter anymore then posters should worry given they post on the basis that it does.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 28, 2018)

If they're a sex case, then...


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 28, 2018)

seventh bullet said:


> If they're a sex case, then...



I wouldn’t know that they are or aren’t.


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## The Flying Pig (Jul 5, 2018)

seventh bullet said:


> If they're a sex case, then...


Yep just mention "sex case" without any evidence or anything concrete and that should do it. 
Sounds a bit like "sisters unclipped" or "cluptun oltras" and nobody wants to be anything like them.
I am told they have both surpassed SWP.


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## LDC (Jul 10, 2018)

Full steam ahead on the branding... Red London


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## Sweet FA (Sep 26, 2018)

Didn't see that coming.


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Nov 12, 2018)

Latest scummy behaviour from one of the “joke” Stalinists.....


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## 19force8 (Nov 12, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Latest scummy behaviour from one of the “joke” Stalinists.....



Norton/Hale is now a Morning Star Journalist?

Seems you can't keep a good "platformist" down.


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## treelover (Nov 12, 2018)

I fought with the YPG and I'm upset by the patronising reaction to Anna Campbell's death

Is this the Alexander Norton who went to Syria?


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## killer b (Nov 12, 2018)

yeah


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Latest scummy behaviour from one of the “joke” Stalinists.....




This is playing out across public threads of several fb profiles. The suggestion that the house was ‘broken in to’ is patently bollocks given RL were there as guests of someone living there (who, it turns out, has been subsequently evicted by these supposed socialists). Makes you wonder how much of the rest of it has been skewed for political gain.


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## killer b (Nov 12, 2018)

I think socialists are allowed to kick cunts out of houseshares and still be socialists tbf.


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## The Flying Pig (Nov 12, 2018)

Just sounds like a load of "mountain out of a mole hill" to me. Maybe a bit of attention seeking squabbling even.


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## The Flying Pig (Nov 12, 2018)

seventh bullet said:


> If they're a sex case, then...


That old chestnut!


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

killer b said:


> I think socialists are allowed to kick cunts out of houseshares and still be socialists tbf.



With no notice whatsoever? Nice!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 12, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t think it’s right. I know he hasn’t posted in some time but isn’t not outing each other something that should be maintained?


Except for Diesel


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> Except for Diesel



Well he went to prison for some pretty disturbing stuff. And worked as hired muscle for some landlord.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> With no notice whatsoever? Nice!


TBH I can think of loads of situations where booting someone out with no notice would be justified. 'his mates ripped us off, grafitti'd the living room, pissed on the floor and threatened my girlfriend' is one such situation. You may have different levels of acceptable behaviour, I dunno.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

killer b said:


> TBH I can think of loads of situations where booting someone out with no notice would be justified. 'his mates ripped us off, grafitti'd the living room, pissed on the floor and threatened my girlfriend' is one such situation. You may have different levels of acceptable behaviour, I dunno.



Fair point. But I already pointed out one lie that is doing the rounds (that they’d broken into the place) so wondered how much else of it was true. You appear happy to accept it all at face value with the resulting punishment being proportionate.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2018)

I've no idea whether it's all true and don't really care tbh. Just thought the idea that socialists wouldn't kick someone out of a houseshare was a bit mad.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

Fair enough. My point was more making someone homeless though. Even if someone had acted a dick I’d want to know they actually had somewhere to go rather than simply changing the locks and dumping their stuff on the street.


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 12, 2018)

Did they get kicked out before or after they pissed on the floor and wrote on the walls?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> Did they get kicked out before or after they pissed on the floor and wrote on the walls?


Can't be arsed to muster a fuck which way it was


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> Did they get kicked out before or after they pissed on the floor and wrote on the walls?



The guy who was kicked out claims only his own walls (that he’d paid rent for) were wrote on and the floor pissing was made up. 
Difficult to know what to believe.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The guy who was kicked out claims only his own walls (that he’d paid rent for) were wrote on and the floor pissing was made up.
> Difficult to know what to believe.


Or care even. 

A few decades ago this kind of [not uncommon] spat involving a handful of people and maybe a couple of dozen of their friends  would have been talked about [by those who cared] down the pub at the start of a Saturday evening and then passed over. Now with social media arguments rumble on for weeks and even old farts like me get to hear of it. Pah!

And I know I'm responsible for bringing it up here, but if I hadn't someone else would have and besides, I just thought it was odd.


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2018)

Christ. I just read a full account of this (bored in a hospital waiting room, don't judge me) and literally everyone involved, on all sides, seem to be shrieking twats. Limepits for the lot of them.


----------



## treelover (Nov 13, 2018)

Do you have a link?


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2018)

No


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 13, 2018)

Part II of the pantomime has The Clarion starting a petition against what is basically an FB page. 

Fight Red London and the politics it represents


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Part II of the pantomime has The Clarion starting a petition against what is basically an FB page.
> 
> Fight Red London and the politics it represents


What Sandy/taxamo has been up to over the last ten years is not a face book page.  I strongly suggest you - as an active, tireless, never fucking shutting about it, working class anti-fascist steer clear of people prepared to do security for people with links to belgian and french fascist sympathisers and strong men dictators. Even clearer of any stewarding group they manage to get rmt members subs to pay for - that's not going on pints after 5 anyway.


----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2018)

Something that is _Basically a Facebook page_ can still be politically and culturally very significant anyway. It's not really any kind of dismissal.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What Sandy/taxamo has been up to over the last ten years is not a face book page.  I strongly suggest you - as an active, tireless, never fucking shutting about it, working class anti-fascist steer clear of people prepared to do security for people with links to belgian and french fascist sympathisers and strong men dictators. Even clearer of any stewarding group they manage to get rmt members subs to pay for - that's not going on pints after 5 anyway.



I have no links with any Tankie tradition, let alone those you mention. I have bumped into them twice in the last couple of months (once completely randomly in a takeaway  ) and they don’t appear to be fussed on me either.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2018)

The openly red faces in london should be those allowing this to happen - this child-man to walk around and parasite on lost young men (and not so old now eh?). To be employed by a nexus of labour people, to be accepted despite years of bullshit and repeated accusations of rape and sexual assault. Because, despite his goldsmiths background (another whole load of bullshit about that btw) he has an estuary accent. That seems to be all that matters in this shitty ID politics milieu.


----------



## treelover (Nov 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What Sandy/taxamo has been up to over the last ten years is not a face book page.  I strongly suggest you - as an active, tireless, never fucking shutting about it, working class anti-fascist steer clear of people prepared to do security for people with links to belgian and french fascist sympathisers and strong men dictators. Even clearer of any stewarding group they manage to get rmt members subs to pay for - that's not going on pints after 5 anyway.




is there evidence for all this?, these are powerful accusations, tx


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2018)

treelover said:


> is there evidence for all this?, these are powerful accusations, tx


You have been on the beeley thread. There is the evidence. Over and over.


----------



## treelover (Nov 13, 2018)

Right, Assadists


----------



## treelover (Nov 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Part II of the pantomime has The Clarion starting a petition against what is basically an FB page.
> 
> Fight Red London and the politics it represents



Lots of Workers Liberty amongst the signatories.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2018)

treelover said:


> is there evidence for all this?, these are powerful accusations, tx


You want evidence of them doing security for that meeting by the person with links to belgian/french facists/anti-semites/holocaust deniers though rather than being assadists?

https://www.urban75.net/forums/attachments/downing-red-london-rapists-png.149468/


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2018)




----------



## killer b (Nov 13, 2018)

treelover said:


> Lots of Workers Liberty amongst the signatories.


The clarion is some sort of AWL entryist thing, so yeah.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> The openly red faces in london should be those allowing this to happen - this child-man to walk around and parasite on lost young men (and not so old now eh?). To be employed by a nexus of labour people, to be accepted despite years of bullshit and repeated accusations of rape and sexual assault. Because, despite his goldsmiths background (another whole load of bullshit about that btw) he has an estuary accent. That seems to be all that matters in this shitty ID politics milieu.



The problem is mate, I only know ‘rumours’. In fact less than that. Anyway, he’s stand-offish with me regardless.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The problem is mate, I only know ‘rumours’. In fact less than that. Anyway, he’s stand-offish with me regardless.


You don't want him any more than that or you're INVOLVED. 

Fcuking london.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You don't want him any more than that or you're INVOLVED.
> 
> Fcuking london.



Well I’m presently not involved with anyone in London, let alone posh boys.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 14, 2018)

Against 4Chan Stalinism

Brief but good.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 14, 2018)

treelover said:


> Lots of Workers Liberty amongst the signatories.



and fair few RMT


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 15, 2018)

cantsin said:


> and fair few RMT


I wonder if that might be to do with opposition to Steve Hedley who seems to have links to Red London despite being [or having been] a trot himself.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 15, 2018)

I see Chanel jumping on the bandwagon now:


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 15, 2018)

Their meme game can be quite funny at times. But my fears is that Red London has made a generation of young leftists soft in the fucking head.

Glad to hear stories of them being posh twats tbf, and I found the obsessive anti-anarchist postings a bit weird at times but all makes sense now


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 18, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


>



I didn't think I still had this


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 18, 2018)

splonkydoo said:


> Their meme game can be quite funny at times. But my fears is that Red London has made a generation of young leftists soft in the fucking head.
> 
> Glad to hear stories of them being posh twats tbf, and I found the obsessive anti-anarchist postings a bit weird at times but all makes sense now



It has fuck all to do with them being pposh twats and everything to do with them being red brown nuts (which is in keeping with their trajectory originating from anti-imperialism.) maybe some of youse localistic anarchists could be less cheerleaders in this regard and go back to your internationalist roots, looking at the one with a hard on for rackets, the right honorable David Graeber. Making leftists soft in the head? more like making fascism aesthetically appealing.


----------



## rekil (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> View attachment 152434



From that letter he mentioned. Alex Gordon = Alex Norton I assume.



I dunno if this warranted posting previously but that Andrew Neil had him on telly in 2016 where he doubled down on the joos, why 9/11 should never be condemned and 'tactical support for ISIS'.

Downing questioned on 9/11 and Middle East


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

copliker said:


> I dunno if this warranted posting previously but that Andrew Neil had him on telly in 2016 where he doubled down on the joos, why 9/11 should never be condemned and 'tactical support for ISIS'.
> 
> Downing questioned on 9/11 and Middle East


Yes, it was one of those, _holy fuck this is the left now_ moments.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Nov 20, 2018)

copliker said:


> From that letter he mentioned. Alex Gordon = Alex Norton I assume.



Two different people. Both RMT though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> I didn't think I still had this
> 
> View attachment 152975


your books are in a mess


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> your books are in a mess


H,C,A,P...


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, it was one of those, _holy fuck this is the left now_ moments.


Is it though? Seems to me he's a washed-up figure from a fringe group rendered even more fringe by the biggest left wing resurgence in decades. I can't see he's worth paying attention to at all except to point out he's a dickhead in passing. The left is elsewhere. You might not like that left either, but that's a different matter.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Is it though? Seems to me he's a washed-up figure from a fringe group rendered even more fringe by the biggest left wing resurgence in decades. I can't see he's worth paying attention to at all except to point out he's a dickhead in passing. The left is elsewhere. You might not like that left either, but that's a different matter.


Is it? Where? You mean corbyn? The remain-left? Who and where? If all left means is labour then i suppose that you're right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> the biggest left wing resurgence in decades.




this would be the biggest left wing resurgence far to the right of jim 'lenin' callaghan i suppose


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Is it? Where? You mean corbyn? The remain-left? Who and where? If all left means is labour then i suppose that you're right.


I haven't joined the Labour Party and I don't intend to, but I take a brighter view of recent changes than you I guess. Many of the new LP members are to the left of Corbyn, and in my experience are committed neither to Corbyn nor the Labour Party per se. Some (not all) of those who are committed to the party path also understand that Labour has never been a socialist party and they would have to implement huge sweeping changes for it to become such a thing. Neither are they naïve about how difficult a confrontation with capital would be if they manage to create a socialist party. I didn't just mean the Labour party, but obviously the resurgence of the party has been quite key in creating networks of left wing activists that are involved in many things.

It strikes me as odd to see figures like Downing as important in the left and dismiss, say, things like The World Transformed as 'not left wing enough'. The latter attitude cedes territory to some 'genuine left' that is indeed full of arseholes, and ignores that what happens at something like TWT (which I visited this year) is more than just 'let's support Corbyn' but an exchange of ideas between people with varying degrees of radicalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I haven't joined the Labour Party and I don't intend to, but I take a brighter view of recent changes than you I guess. Many of the new LP members are to the left of Corbyn, and in my experience are committed neither to Corbyn nor the Labour Party per se. Some (not all) of those who are committed to the party path also understand that Labour has never been a socialist party and they would have to implement huge sweeping changes for it to become such a thing. Neither are they naïve about how difficult a confrontation with capital would be if they manage to create a socialist party. I didn't just mean the Labour party, but obviously the resurgence of the party has been quite key in creating networks of left wing activists that are involved in many things.
> 
> It strikes me as odd to see figures like Downing as important in the left and dismiss, say, things like The World Transformed as 'not left wing enough'. The latter attitude cedes territory to some 'genuine left' that is indeed full of arseholes, and ignores that what happens at something like TWT (which I visited this year) is more than just 'let's support Corbyn' but an exchange of ideas between people with varying degrees of radicalism.


every discussion involving ideas is between people with varying degrees of radicalism, be it theresa may and michael gove or butchersapron and teuchter


----------



## belboid (Nov 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I haven't joined the Labour Party and I don't intend to, but I take a brighter view of recent changes than you I guess. Many of the new LP members are to the left of Corbyn, and in my experience are committed neither to Corbyn nor the Labour Party per se. Some (not all) of those who are committed to the party path also understand that Labour has never been a socialist party and they would have to implement huge sweeping changes for it to become such a thing. Neither are they naïve about how difficult a confrontation with capital would be if they manage to create a socialist party. I didn't just mean the Labour party, but obviously the resurgence of the party has been quite key in creating networks of left wing activists that are involved in many things.
> 
> It strikes me as odd to see figures like Downing as important in the left and dismiss, say, things like The World Transformed as 'not left wing enough'. The latter attitude cedes territory to some 'genuine left' that is indeed full of arseholes, and ignores that what happens at something like TWT (which I visited this year) is more than just 'let's support Corbyn' but an exchange of ideas between people with varying degrees of radicalism.


Downing is a complete non-entity who has been fucked off by the vast majority of organisations and groupuscules. He's basically down to him and Ian Donovan (expelled from the _CPGB_ for anti-semitism). He got onto Andrew Neil only because Labour weren't qute sharp enough at realising who he was,  and because Neil is a shitbag tory, who knew Downing is an irrelevance, but still made a useful fool for kicking Labour.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I haven't joined the Labour Party and I don't intend to, but I take a brighter view of recent changes than you I guess. Many of the new LP members are to the left of Corbyn, and in my experience are committed neither to Corbyn nor the Labour Party per se. Some (not all) of those who are committed to the party path also understand that Labour has never been a socialist party and they would have to implement huge sweeping changes for it to become such a thing. Neither are they naïve about how difficult a confrontation with capital would be if they manage to create a socialist party. I didn't just mean the Labour party, but obviously the resurgence of the party has been quite key in creating networks of left wing activists that are involved in many things.
> 
> It strikes me as odd to see figures like Downing as important in the left and dismiss, say, things like The World Transformed as 'not left wing enough'. The latter attitude cedes territory to some 'genuine left' that is indeed full of arseholes, and ignores that what happens at something like TWT (which I visited this year) is more than just 'let's support Corbyn' but an exchange of ideas between people with varying degrees of radicalism.


So the left just equals labour then. I wasn't using left to mean that, but people outside of labour. I don't care about what these new labour people might do in the future but what they're doing now. And your map is miles off from my reading of them. But i don't want to have a discussion about that on this thread.

I didn't say Downing was important - he's utterly irrelevant in the wider sense. That was my point entire. He though, _has _thanked red london and the london RMT for defending his shitty event from communists and allowing fash-friendly voices to speak in front of an international brigade memorial. Whilst taking pics of syrian dissenters to send to the regime mukhabarat.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

belboid said:


> Downing is a complete non-entity who has been fucked off by the vast majority of organisations and groupuscules. He's basically down to him and Ian Donovan (expelled from the _CPGB_ for anti-semitism). He got onto Andrew Neil only because Labour weren't qute sharp enough at realising who he was,  and because Neil is a shitbag tory, who knew Downing is an irrelevance, but still made a useful fool for kicking Labour.


Neil licked his lips and thought, i'm going to kick the shit out of this prat. And he did.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> your books are in a mess


A lot of them are double-shelved too


----------



## Sue (Nov 20, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> A lot of them are double-shelved too


You'll end up on one of Pickman's model's S Georgia transports if you don't sort that out smartish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

Sue said:


> You'll end up on one of Pickman's model's S Georgia transports if you don't sort that out smartish.


Yeh he's down to organise the former people's library


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

SANDY HALE/taxamo welf - anyone had any dealings with him?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> SANDY HALE/taxamo welf - anyone had any dealings with him?



He was at a Hackney Solidarity Network meeting I went to about 10 years ago? (This was the broader network that came out of Hackney Independent that I couldn’t really be arsed with). 

Seemed confident. Had either been at or was off to another meeting. You know the type. 

I think he was in Liberty and Solidarity or whatever that group around then was called.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> He was at a Hackney Solidarity Network meeting I went to about 10 years ago? (This was the broader network that came out of Hackney Independent that I couldn’t really be arsed with).
> 
> Seemed confident. Had either been at or was off to another meeting. You know the type.
> 
> I think he was in Liberty and Solidarity or whatever that group around then was called.


He set up that shit show L&S. He set up a load of split type things. Every single thing he joined he started up a split. The AF, The IWW, his fucking mum.
Is that odd behaviour?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> He set up that shit show L&S. He set up a load of split type things. Every single thing he joined he started up a split. The AF, The IWW, his fucking mum.
> Is that odd behaviour?



Well it's not completely unheard of but is worth commenting on.


----------



## belboid (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> He set up that shit show L&S. He set up a load of split type things. Every single thing he joined he started up a split. The AF, The IWW, his fucking mum.
> Is that odd behaviour?


reminds me of a certain someone from Brighton


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 20, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> H,C,A,P...



H,C,R,A,P...I think Cinzano is trying to tell us something about his books!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> SANDY HALE/taxamo welf - anyone had any dealings with him?


He was told not to bother coming along to alarm, all manner of stories about him, none to his credit, and the worst ones likely true


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> He set up that shit show L&S. He set up a load of split type things. Every single thing he joined he started up a split. The AF, The IWW, his fucking mum.
> Is that odd behaviour?


Ayn?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

I don’t think he’s as important as you guys make him out to be. For sure he represents a regressive tradition and they have Facebook likes but it’s still mostly in the left bubble.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 20, 2018)

Being toxic and being important are different things.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Being toxic and being important are different things.



We need to break out of the ghetto which involves ignoring the idiocy within it. 
(Easier said than done, I know)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 20, 2018)

He was on Bone's podcast in '09, plugging L&S and Wobblies:

Anarchism In The UK #17: SANDY HALE (LIBERTY & SOLIDARITY/IWW) | Free Podcasts | Podomatic"


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 20, 2018)

belboid said:


> reminds me of a certain someone from Brighton



Intriguing.  Care to expand?


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 20, 2018)

dialectician said:


> It has fuck all to do with them being pposh twats and everything to do with them being red brown nuts (which is in keeping with their trajectory originating from anti-imperialism.) maybe some of youse localistic anarchists could be less cheerleaders in this regard and go back to your internationalist roots, looking at the one with a hard on for rackets, the right honorable David Graeber. Making leftists soft in the head? more like making fascism aesthetically appealing.



Of course it doesn't have to do with them being posh twats, but i'll get my digs in when I can get them.
Nothing more satisfying than seeing a bunch of regressive idproles trying to out-working class each other.

And heck, I have to live with some of the consequences of this nostalgic soviet revivalism - and it utterly baffles me.
Probably the most vital youth section in my area are a bunch of young stalinists, making up the youth section of a party full of octogenarians that two years ago I was fully sure would literally just die off.

There's a reason why RL has played a role in popularising all this that shouldn't be so easily dismissed, and which doesn't imply support.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

sure, everyone likes to cuss out posh twats.


But what happens when the posh opportunist degenerates in labour use the argument that open borders aren't possible to justify limiting imigration under the benevolent authority of the right honourable JC? Grime historians and all. filth. hang them by the balls.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We need to break out of the ghetto which involves ignoring the idiocy within it.
> (Easier said than done, I know)


Which part of the accusations are you arguing that we ignore then?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Which part of the accusations are you arguing that we ignore then?



Not sure I’ve suggested anything along those lines? I said that I know very little about them. You probably know more. Do as you please.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Why do you even post this stuff? You literally just said that ignoring leftist bubble stuff is the way to go, to be encouraged


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Why do you even post this stuff? You literally just said that ignoring leftist bubble stuff is the way to go, to be encouraged



I was talking about political currents, you’ve referred directly to the accusations.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

You directly referred to this worm and used him as an example of what needs to be ignored didn't you?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You directly referred to this worm and used him as an example of what needs to be ignored didn't you?



Red London are more than one person.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

It’s fab that you’re trying to pin me down as saying that the accusations should be ignored. Unfortunately I’ve never said that.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Red London are more than one person.


So when you said 'he' and argued that this is the sort of thing we need to learn to ignore so we're you referring to?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> So when you said 'he' and argued that this is the sort of thing we need to learn to ignore so we're you referring to?



Well obviously him. But not in the context that you’re presenting it as.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

Ok so scrap ignoring him. What should we do?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

OK, so scrap your argument which you just denied making. Come on.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> OK, so scrap your argument which you just denied making. Come on.



Come on. What should my position be? What are you doing about him?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Come on. What should my position be? What are you doing about him?


Simple question: men who hassle women for sex, are you for or against them?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Come on. What should my position be? What are you doing about him?


So, just to be clear, you're no longer arguing that he should be ignored. You're no longer denying making that argument. You accept that you did, in fact argue this, despite saying repeatedly that you didn't?

What should be done is exposure of activities and the politics claimed to be behind it with a resulting social and political dissasociation. And that is what i have done and have worked towards other people doing so for many year now. You, who were  just loudly braying that you know nothing of this person or the wider issue and that it should be ignored disagree?


----------



## andysays (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We need to break out of the ghetto which involves ignoring the idiocy within it.
> (Easier said than done, I know)


Of all the posters here, you are usually the first to point the finger at the whole of 'the left' for the alleged actions or beliefs of a handful of unrepresentative idiots, so excuse me if I don't take this comment terribly seriously.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 21, 2018)

splonkydoo said:


> And heck, I have to live with some of the consequences of this nostalgic soviet revivalism - and it utterly baffles me.
> Probably the most vital youth section in my area are a bunch of young stalinists, making up the youth section of a party full of octogenarians that two years ago I was fully sure would literally just die off.
> 
> There's a reason why RL  has played a role in popularising all this that shouldn't be so easily dismissed, and which doesn't imply support.



this is the interesting thing about RL ( and many other mainly soc media based new lefties )  : how the feck has this cartoon ( and mainly deeply regressive/reactionary) neo Stalinism made such an apparently strong impact on these pockets of new young left ? Can't just be the memes ? And why does daft Enver Hoxha lolz and the like make for such strong bloody meme game anyway ?

(All input re : socio-cultural theory of 21st C memetic semiotics welcome.)


----------



## cantsin (Nov 21, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I haven't joined the Labour Party and I don't intend to, but I take a brighter view of recent changes than you I guess.* Many of the new LP members are to the left of Corbyn, and in my experience are committed neither to Corbyn nor the Labour Party per se. Some (not all) of those who are committed to the party path also understand that Labour has never been a socialist party and they would have to implement huge sweeping changes for it to become such a thing. Neither are they naïve about how difficult a confrontation with capital would be if they manage to create a socialist party.* I didn't just mean the Labour party, but obviously the resurgence of the party has been quite key in creating networks of left wing activists that are involved in many things.



factz


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Simple question: men who hassle women for sex, are you for or against them?


Shhh. He's _breaking out of the ghetto._


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Simple question: men who hassle women for sex, are you for or against them?



Against them obviously. Is that what the accusation was?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

cantsin said:


> this is the interesting thing about RL - how the feck has this cartoon ( and mainly deeply regressive/reactionary) neo Stalinism made such an apparently strong impact on these pockets of new young left ? Can't just be the memes ? And why does daft Enver Hoxha lolz and the like make for such strong bloody meme game anyway ?
> 
> All input re : cultural theory on memetic semiotics welcome.


Couple of obvious things - Identity politics. Middle class types desperately looking for an identity to cover up their vacuity. Caricature w/c people as natural stalinist train drivers with mockney patter. Follow suit. And Bob Crow/daddy getting things done in latter half of 90s early 2000s.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> So, just to be clear, you're no longer arguing that he should be ignored. You're no longer denying making that argument. You accept that you did, in fact argue this, despite saying repeatedly that you didn't?
> 
> What should be done is exposure of activities and the politics claimed to be behind it with a resulting social and political dissasociation. And that is what i have done and have worked towards other people doing so for many year now. You, who were  just loudly braying that you know nothing of this person or the wider issue and that it should be ignored disagree?



What the rest of the left are up to isn’t a particular focus of my activism. I’m more interested in wc issues.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What the rest of the left are up to isn’t a particular focus of my activism. I’m more interested in wc issues.


You're a laughable shambles. Now accusations of rape aren't w/c class issues. Doing security for holocaust denying fash fellow travellers isn't a w/c issue. You really are a joke. Yiou literally are a a liberal identity politics freak's wet dream.

This new RMT centred anti-fascist stewards group proposed by RED LONDON is looking well solid ain't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Look, here they are last week in what i'm sure nice one would call _clobber _- look at that that proper ebayed SI goggle jacket



Is a couple of hundred quid jacket and watching vids of 80s kick offs a w/c issue i wonder?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You're a laughable shambles. Now accusations of rape aren't w/c class issues. Doing security for holocaust denying fash fellow travellers isn't a w/c issue. You really are a joke. Yiou literally are a a liberal identity politics freak's wet dream.
> 
> This new RMT centred anti-fascist stewards group proposed by RED LONDON is looking well solid ain't it?



You have an assumption that I know all the things you know on the starting block. I know nothing about them doing security for fash fellow travellers other than you mentioning it here. I know there’s rumours of accusations but not really any detail as I’ve never been a part of that milieu. 
You then use that as a stick to beat me with. I’ve heard of the RMT Stewards group but again I don’t know who’s involved.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Why are you even posting on this thread then? Just stop. Do that ignoring you suggest that others do. Or that you don't suggest others do. I forget which it is right now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Look, here they are last week in what i'm sure nice one would call _clobber _- look at that that proper ebayed SI goggle jacket
> 
> View attachment 153149
> 
> Is a couple of hundred quid jacket and watching vids of 80s kick offs a w/c issue i wonder?



We don’t all follow them on twitter, butchers.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Why are you even posting on this thread then? Just stop. Do that ignoring you suggest that others do. Or that you don't suggest others do. I forget which it is right now.



Seriously? We must have your insights or leave the thread alone? This is up there with ‘take it up with them personally’.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We don’t all follow them on twitter, butchers.


Oddly enough, nor do i. I however did see them being laughed at over the weekend. I also make it a point to actually look into stuff i post about so i don't end up saying over and over that i know nothing about the issue or people involved whilst posting about them over and over.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seriously? We must have your insights or leave the thread alone? This is up there with ‘take it up with them personally’.


No it's not. I am inviting you to do the most basic of research on the issue that you're posting about. Because thus far, you're posting uniformed drivel and wasting my time.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> No it's not. I am inviting you to do the most basic of research on the issue that you're posting about. Because thus far, you're posting uniformed drivel and wasting my time.



Terribly sorry to have wasted your time. 
Where do I start my research oh sage one?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

I’ve checked their website but there’s just a merchandise stall, no info about activities. Please advise.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

A google search leads me to a thread on here called Vanessa Beeley so I’ll have a read but it looks like my ‘source’ will be you.


----------



## belboid (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We need to break out of the ghetto which involves ignoring the idiocy within it.
> (Easier said than done, I know)


No, we need to oppose those supposedly within our movement - those that take an active and noticeable part in it - and hold them to account when they are being bigoted, reactionary, shitehawks.

It is the behaviour of those, not just Hale, but most of the Red London macho cockwombles, who actively stop working-class women, people of colour, lesbians and gay people, from taking part in the wider movement. It is their behaviour that push women etc into that ID politics that you so hate (but that Red London actually replicate, as their attitude to the class is purely identity based). If we don’t push them out, then the class – the _whole_ class – will not win.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Against them obviously. Is that what the accusation was?


An accusation. There are others.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> An accusation. There are others.



Of course. But do you at least take the point that the entire country aren’t aware of it, let alone the details? 
You’ll be aware as you’re part of that milieu. I’ve just got rumours to go on.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2018)

I have known the man since he popped up in WAG. He was loathed by some just for his being and his posh boy background. Some of his detractors loathe him so much they gleefully ramped up accusations against him and presented these as facts. I am not aware of anyone who accused him of raping them and I questioned people who said he was a rapist and they were unable to say they knew of anyone who had actually accused him of rape. 

There was a farcical accountability process organised by people who should have known better where Tax was invited to attend and was not told of who his accusers were or what the specific accusations were either. 

Tax denied everything but was cast out by WAG and the accusations have been chucked about ever since. 

I knew his ex gf of many years back then and she had not a bad word to say about him. 

I got lots of messages from people on Facebook demanding I defriend him. None of these people demanding knew much or anything of the accusations but were quite happy to demand this and that and spread accusations of him being a wrongun. 

The truth maybe out there but certainly there are lots of people who despite their absolute ignorance of the accusations never mind the facts present their judgement. 

I know little about his last five years and know less about red london. 

Personally he seemed ok but full of himself like a lot of public school types.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I have known the man since he popped up in WAG. He was loathed by some just for his being and his posh boy background. Some of his detractors loathe him so much they gleefully ramped up accusations against him and presented these as facts. I am not aware of anyone who accused him of raping them and I questioned people who said he was a rapist and they were unable to say they knew of anyone who had actually accused him of rape.
> 
> There was a farcical accountability process organised by people who should have known better where Tax was invited to attend and was not told of who his accusers were or what the specific accusations were either.
> 
> ...



Cheers for this. So those whipping me for being cautious can fucking do one.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Cheers for this. So those whipping me for being cautious can fucking do one.


I don't know about that. There may well be people with lots of knowledge. butchersapron would prob know more than I. 
I never organised or went on any demo with the man. More of a rave acquaintance.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I don't know about that. There may well be people with lots of knowledge. butchersapron would prob know more than I.
> I never organised or went on any demo with the man. More of a rave acquaintance.



Fair enough - although butchers seems to think I should have the inside track on everything. Plus you’re London based and I trust your perspective.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Tax denied everything but was cast out by WAG and the accusations have been chucked about ever since.


i can't recall yer man ever being in wag, although i have no doubt he turned up to some wag events.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 21, 2018)

I think we need some kind of central information exchange though so as not to lead to these kind of problems in future.
For instance, Butchers could man the phones and also produce the information ready for consumption, he could then edit the propaganda and then deliver the leaflets.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Look, here they are last week in what i'm sure nice one would call _clobber _- look at that that proper ebayed SI goggle jacket
> 
> View attachment 153149
> 
> Is a couple of hundred quid jacket and watching vids of 80s kick offs a w/c issue i wonder?


Lots of little ones just about peaking out over the banner.


----------



## treelover (Nov 22, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Look, here they are last week in what i'm sure nice one would call _clobber _- look at that that proper ebayed SI goggle jacket
> 
> View attachment 153149
> 
> Is a couple of hundred quid jacket and watching vids of 80s kick offs a w/c issue i wonder?




the groups may be problematic, but the sentiments aren't, anti-jihadi, and look at some of the stares cos they dare to have england flags.


----------



## treelover (Nov 22, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I have known the man since he popped up in WAG. He was loathed by some just for his being and his posh boy background. Some of his detractors loathe him so much they gleefully ramped up accusations against him and presented these as facts. I am not aware of anyone who accused him of raping them and I questioned people who said he was a rapist and they were unable to say they knew of anyone who had actually accused him of rape.
> 
> There was a farcical accountability process organised by people who should have known better where Tax was invited to attend and was not told of who his accusers were or what the specific accusations were either.
> 
> ...




interested to know which school he went to


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2018)

treelover said:


> interested to know which school he went to


even if i knew i wouldn't feed your prurient curiosity


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2018)

treelover said:


> the groups may be problematic, but the sentiments aren't, anti-jihadi, and look at some of the stares cos they dare to have england flags.


yeh. that stare likely from someone with them


----------



## treelover (Nov 22, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> even if i knew i wouldn't feed your prurient curiosity




same one as you then?


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 22, 2018)

treelover said:


> the groups may be problematic, but the sentiments aren't, anti-jihadi, and look at some of the stares cos they dare to have england flags.



They wish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2018)

treelover said:


> same one as you then?


by no means: but it might have been the same one as you for all i know.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 22, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> I am inviting you to do the most basic of research on the issue that you're posting about.



No worries. My ‘basic research’ has thus far revealed that you throw around accusations of sexual violence with liberal abandon.



butchersapron said:


> hopefully the one who sent geri sexually violent and abusive near rape threats.





Geri said:


> It wasn't a threat of rape, it was just abusive really.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Nov 22, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No worries. My ‘basic research’ has thus far revealed that you throw around accusations of sexual violence with liberal abandon.


And so the rumours go round and round, In my humble opinion he is at best just an irritating posho trying his best to replicate a working class low life oik like my good self.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 22, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> And so the rumours go round and round, In my humble opinion he is at best just an irritating posho trying his best to replicate a working class low life oik like my good self.



He’s definitely working class. I can say that much.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Nov 22, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He’s definitely working class. I can say that much.


I am obviously talking at cross purposes, cause the fella I speak of defo has  a posho accent to my ears.


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 22, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> ebayed *SI goggle jacket*



I honestly had to put this into google translate.

#FeelingOldCosIAmOld


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 22, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> And so the rumours go round and round, In my humble opinion he is at best just an irritating posho trying his best to replicate a working class low life oik like my good self.



Excellent , a prole-off.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 22, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

So butchersapron can you give more detail as to the security stint RL did?


----------



## rekil (Nov 23, 2018)

treelover said:


> the groups may be problematic, but the sentiments aren't, anti-jihadi, and look at some of the stares cos they dare to have england flags.


They did the door for a meeting partly organised by pro-ISIS pro-AQ (on anti-US/imperialist grounds) nutters featuring a posh nutter who on top of being a proponent of multifarious branches of conspiraloonery has declared that "the light at the end of the tunnel" is Alain Soral's Egalite Et Reconciliation group. Apart from his 24/7 antisemitism, Soral has spent the last 5 years mocking an antifascist who was murdered by disciples of his mate Batskin. So their claim to be "fighting fascism in every form" could do with a bit of workshopping. And I doubt whether these 'anti-jihadi' sentiments extend to opposing Assad's army of Iranian, Lebanese or Iraqi shia fundies, or anyone at all in the region who has a pop at the joos.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 23, 2018)

copliker said:


> They did the door for a meeting partly organised by *pro-ISIS pro-AQ *(on anti-US/imperialist grounds) nutters featuring a posh nutter who on top of being a proponent of multifarious branches of conspiraloonery has declared that "the light at the end of the tunnel" is Alain Soral's Egalite Et Reconciliation group. Apart from his 24/7 antisemitism, Soral has spent the last 5 years mocking an antifascist who was murdered by disciples of his mate Batskin. So their claim to be "fighting fascism in every form" could do with a bit of workshopping. And I doubt whether these *'anti-jihadi' sentiments* extend to opposing Assad's army of Iranian, Lebanese or Iraqi shia fundies, or anyone at all in the region who has a pop at the joos.



am getting  confused here ?


----------



## rekil (Nov 23, 2018)

cantsin said:


> am getting  confused here ?


One of the organisers of Beeley's talk in the Marx Memorial library was Gerry Downing's Socialist Fight which I believe consists essentially of himself and one other crank. Downing had been expelled from Labour for the pro-Isis/AQ comments by this "group". He then went on telly and doubled down on those comments, and banged on about the joos while he was at it.  As mentioned elsewhere, following the Paris Nov 2015 attacks, Patrick Henningsen, the loon-in-chief of Beeley's base site and orbiter of white nationalism, claimed simultaneously that ISIS doesn't exist and that Russia has bombed them.


> Henningsen]:- It's preposterous to say that you would know that ISIS carried out this terrorist attack because who is ISIS. ISIS is not an organisation. It is not a state. It doesn't really have an administrative hierarchy, it's a brand it's a label. It's a label that gets applied to anybody that the media or western governments feel like applying it to.





> Henningsen 13 mins later] :- They're trying to maintain that Russia's been bombing hospitals, hasn't been hitting ISIS and that's simply not true okay. I would put myself out on a limb to say that those are lies.



I dunno where the confusion is on the 2nd one. Assad is heavily reliant on sectarian shia militias who are recruited on the basis that they're fighting a holy war to protect shrines and so on. At best the likes of Red London are ambivalent about forms of islamic extremism, and at worst they support it unconditionally.


----------



## manji (Nov 23, 2018)

That’s not a Stone Island FFS it’s clearly CP Company .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 25, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Look, here they are last week in what i'm sure nice one would call _clobber _- look at that that proper ebayed SI goggle jacket
> 
> View attachment 153149
> 
> Is a couple of hundred quid jacket and watching vids of 80s kick offs a w/c issue i wonder?



Well, it obviously makes THEM feel like GEN-U-INE proletarians.

My only issue is that, from my memories of football aggro in the 80s and 90s (seeing, not engaging), most of them weren't clothes horses. These ponces seem to be taking their lead from plastic proles like Stephen Yaxley Lennon.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 25, 2018)

what the hell is a genuine prole? how do these people fool so many gullable wonks?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 25, 2018)

clearly haven't encountered that notorious north-east london specimin, the bourgeois with cockney accents.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2018)

dialectician said:


> what the hell is a genuine prole? how do these people fool so many gullable wonks?



Genuine prole = me.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 26, 2018)

bet they are fucking west ham supporters as well.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 26, 2018)

Milwall are prolier than thou.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 27, 2018)

Don't bring Millwall into this.


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 27, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Milwall are prolier than thou.



Hemel Hempstead FC, surely?


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 27, 2018)

Genuine prole test - navigate the magic roundabout


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> bet they are fucking west ham supporters as well.



Fuck you, you fucking fuck!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> bet they are fucking west ham supporters as well.


bet you're one of that breed of supporter who picked their club on their recent record rather than their proximity


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> bet you're one of that breed of supporter who picked their club on their recent record rather than their proximity



Yeh cos arsenal is really shining these days isn't it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Yeh cos arsenal is really shining these days isn't it.


I have always lived in North London and I have supported arsenal since I was at primary school. Back then arsenal were challenging for honours but it was some years before they won the first trophy I recall, the 79 fa cup. I certainly didn't start following them on the basis of their mid-70s form. Not to mention the doldrums between 79 and winning the league cup in 87


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 27, 2018)

ok dad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> ok dad.


Don't try to be clever, son, it doesn't suit you


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 27, 2018)

ok dad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> ok dad.


ah, the witty repartee of the marxist.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 27, 2018)

my uncle has lived in Laton since he was 11 and supports Liverpool F.C - what is that about?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ah, the witty repartee of the marxist.



'repartee!' You eating fondue, mate?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 27, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Yeh cos arsenal is really shining these days isn't it.



Did you pick it ‘these days’?


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seriously? We must have your insights or leave the thread alone? This is up there with ‘take it up with them personally’.


You have been revived.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

Errr, thanks.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Errr, thanks.


Why don't you tell us again about how you took French classes in Hackney Wick with Sandy.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Watch out, it’s Red London’s shit NKVD.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Watch out, it’s Red London’s shit NKVD.


Less NKVD and more VD.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

OldThreadRevive said:


> Why don't you tell us again about how you took French classes in Hackney Wick with Sandy.



Not sure who you think I am but I’ve never studied French or hung out with Sandy.


----------



## inva (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Watch out, it’s Red London’s shit NKVD.


Careful they'll do some memes at you.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure who you think I am but I’ve never studied French or hung out with Sandy.


I know who you are, you know who you are. You speak fluent French.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure who you think I am but I’ve never studied French or hung out with Sandy.


do you speak fluent french?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty it is vital for the future of the workers' movement that you are honest with us now:

Parlez vous francais?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you speak fluent french?



Nope.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you speak fluent french?


Of course he does, he spent 3 years in Cameroon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Nope.


perhaps now's the time to think about taking it up...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

OldThreadRevive said:


> I know who you are, you know who you are. You speak fluent French.



You haven’t a clue who I am actually.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

OldThreadRevive said:


> Of course he does, he spent 3 years in Cameroon.



You’re nuts. I’ve never been to Africa. The only place outside of Europe I’ve been is Mexico.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You haven’t a clue who I am actually.


One word: Eurostar


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

anyone who has a picture of laurie penny as their avatar is likely to play fast and loose with the facts


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

OldThreadRevive said:


> One word: Eurostar



Used it twice to get to Brussels.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Used it twice to get to Brussels.


Exactly


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty - demand a Subject Access Request, that will fuck them up.


----------



## OldThreadRevive (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Magnus McGinty - demand a Subject Access Request, that will fuck them up.


Didn't you used to be a dairy farmer in Somerset?


----------



## Sue (Aug 2, 2019)

Well this thread has taken a slightly random turn.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

OldThreadRevive said:


> Didn't you used to be a dairy farmer in Somerset?



I did not, but would like two trips on the Eurostar and an 'O' Level in French to be taken into consideration, constable.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 2, 2019)

why's this Tankie been immediately banned ? We don't have enough of them on here, and they're always good vfm imo.

We demand rehabilitation / reinstatement


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

cantsin said:


> why's this Tankie been immediately banned ? We don't have enough of them on here, and they're always good vfm imo.
> 
> We demand rehabilitation / reinstatement


yeh but they have to be in the gulag for a while first


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Weird and inept.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but they have to be in the gulag for a while first



fairs


----------



## Sue (Aug 2, 2019)

I was waiting for more revelations.  (I've a four and a half hour train journey to get through.)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Sue said:


> I was waiting for more revelations.  (I've a four and a half hour train journey to get through.)



Didn't you used to be a lathe operator in Huddersfield, Sue ? 

I know who you are and know all about your extensive knowledge of Belgian heraldry.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Didn't you used to be a lathe operator in Huddersfield, Sue ?
> 
> I know who you are and know all about your extensive knowledge of Belgian heraldry.



Just one word: EasyJet (or is that two?)


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 2, 2019)

Uncle Derek Acorah


----------



## Sue (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Didn't you used to be a lathe operator in Huddersfield, Sue ?
> 
> I know who you are and know all about your extensive knowledge of Belgian heraldry.


Busted. 

Next we'll find out you're not a actually a bear.

(I am interested to hear the story of Magnus McGinty: The Cameroon Years though.)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 2, 2019)

Sue said:


> Busted.
> 
> Next we'll find out you're not a actually a bear.
> 
> (I am interested to hear the story of Magnus McGinty: The Cameroon Years though.)



Me too! Sounds way more exciting than what I was actually doing at that time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me too! Sounds way more exciting than what I was actually doing at that time.


i thought you were out in cameroon trying to stamp on a branch of the blood diamond trade while working on public health campaigns and establishing a college for aspiring joiners and carpenters.


----------



## krink (Aug 2, 2019)

Jesus was a chippie, just sayin


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 2, 2019)

krink said:


> Jesus was a chippie, just sayin


Technically still is I think


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Technically still is I think



Is there PPE in heaven, etc etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Is there PPE in heaven, etc etc.


there are neither oxford nor cambridge colleges in the hereafter


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there are neither oxford nor cambridge colleges in the hereafter



Allows me to flag up this incredibly niche twitter account:

PPE in PPE (@PPEinPPE) | Twitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Allows me to flag up this incredibly niche twitter account:
> 
> PPE in PPE (@PPEinPPE) | Twitter


the article it links to in the top tweet (Hong Kong protests: Coordinating chaos) is very very interesting


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

Since jesus was carpenter do you reckon the Romans got him to make his own cross? It would be an efficient way of doing it imo


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Since jesus was carpenter do you reckon the Romans got him to make his own cross? It would be an efficient way of doing it imo


one of the privileges of the condemned was not having to make the instruments of their execution


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Since jesus was carpenter do you reckon the Romans got him to make his own cross? It would be an efficient way of doing it imo


Pre neo liberalism wasn't it. No to the financialisation of crucifying weird radical religious sect leaders. Crosses stamped with Guild Made


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

Jesus would definitely have been a Union man, or at least the weird non-biblical ahistorical jesus my mum taught me about would have been anyway. 

It's a shame none of Pickman's model 's former people don't have similar skills we could put to use really. Useless cunts probably aren't even capable of digging their own graves once they're no longer good for hard labour.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Jesus would definitely have been a Union man, or at least the weird non-biblical ahistorical jesus my mum taught me about would have been anyway.
> 
> It's a shame none of Pickman's model 's former people don't have similar skills we could put to use really. Useless cunts probably aren't even capable of digging their own graves once they're no longer good for hard labour.



Maybe if we get them to dig their own graves before they're no good for hard labour? #SocialistPlanning


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Maybe if we get them to dig their own graves before they're no good for hard labour? #SocialistPlanning


They could dig a little trench next to the new nationwide canal system (or national grid of boats as I like to call it) to fall into when they expire. We could tell them it's a children's canal to keep morale up.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Since jesus was carpenter do you reckon the Romans got him to make his own cross? It would be an efficient way of doing it imo



I doubt they were made to measure, you just re use the old ones surely, good for a few dozen crucifixions. I don't think there were bespoke crosses.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I know who you are and know all about your extensive knowledge of Belgian heraldry.



Rampant sectarianism


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> I doubt they were made to measure, you just re use the old ones surely, good for a few dozen crucifixions. I don't think there were bespoke crosses.


Must have got terrible infections on the hands and feet with all that old rancid blood 

Not a problem for most but JC had to rise again and they didn't have antibiotics


----------



## JimW (Aug 2, 2019)

Also moonlighted as a wedding caterer.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

I wonder if he offered a vegan alternative to fish butties?


----------



## agricola (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> I wonder if he offered a vegan alternative to fish butties?



Doubt it, even His wafers are made of meat apparently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> It's a shame none of Pickman's model 's former people don't have similar skills we could put to use really. Useless cunts probably aren't even capable of digging their own graves once they're no longer good for hard labour.


that's ok, because they'll be digging their own graves before they begin the hard labour.


----------



## andysays (Aug 2, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Is there PPE in heaven, etc etc.


Apparently everyone has a sort of unearthly glow, so it's not necessary to wear hi-viz.

Up yours, HSE, your rules don't apply here...


----------



## belboid (Aug 2, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Jesus would definitely have been a Union man, or at least the weird non-biblical ahistorical jesus my mum taught me about would have been anyway.


would He? The parable of the vineyard workers makes a mockery of the hourly rate, reeks of favouritism (and possibly anti-semitism)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

belboid said:


> would He? The parable of the vineyard workers makes a mockery of the hourly rate, reeks of favouritism (and possibly anti-semitism)


The mistake you're making is in thinking you can understand jesus by reading the Bible. Or finding out what he actually did. The true path to christ is to listen to my old dears incoherent musings. He was a sort of punky communist union carpenter really.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 2, 2019)

In all seriousness, if there's one thing jesus of nazareth definitely was not its antisemitic (9r Christian for that matter) 

Promise that's the last serious post I'll make today.


----------



## JimW (Aug 2, 2019)

Keen cyclist too, often hear people exclaim as they spot him out and about.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2019)

Is Genocide Denial Anti-Imperialist Now? How Tankies are Taking Over Leftbook and the London Student Scene



> I know the Soviet aesthetic is edgy and quirky and kids like to have a hammer and sickle as their Twitter names or some vapourwave Stalin cover photo. Soviet tower blocks look fucking cool, I know. The USSR was important and fascinating. Gulag jokes and genocide denial look less cool.  What looks like an innocent Weeaboo 2.0 aesthetic of Stalin’s face and glitch filters, with deeply misapplied Cyrillic letters, has become a cover-story for the denial and appropriation and revision of a history which has been set in the minds of the Eastern bloc for centuries.
> 
> The age of leftbook has brought explicit prohibitions on racist, transphobic, homophobic, colourist, biphobic, aphobic, anti-semitic behaviour,  yet only a handful of groups ban “tankism”. Plenty of users see no problem with the tankies’ characteristic support for (or denial of) Soviet violence, repression, and imperialism. The debate is wide open and it seems like everyone has an opinion. Yet, people who grew up in Soviet and post-Soviet nations are being silenced by Soviet apologist Marxists who insist that “Stalin Did Nothing Wrong”. You know, those lads who have "PLEASE DON'T BRING UP AFGHANISTAN" written in their eyes.  “Stalin can’t have murdered thousands of Muslims because there aren’t any Muslims in Russia”.
> 
> Checkmate, history.





> Those boys from the home-counties who fetishise the Eastern Bloc, deeming any critique of Soviet-Communism as "US Imperialist Propaganda" while refusing to listen to anyone who experienced Soviet colonialism. The same ones who shout “religion only causes wars!!” from beneath their fedoras while defending the secular ideology which calculatedly burned Muslims out of the Caucasus, because their Socialism doesn't leave space for the religious. The ones who are rightly calling out imageries of slavery and the holocaust in veganism campaigns, while in the same breath firing out gulag jokes from every platform. The ones who think Stalin fought off the Nazis because he hated racism SO MUCH. The ☭ Twitter ☭ accounts constantly fantasising about lining up their ideological opposites against the wall or sending them to gulags while insisting that the Soviet state did not use any excessive violence. It’s the Worker’s Lib leaflets denouncing antisemitism yet unequivocally denying Stalin’s. It’s the new waves of the same old people calling for Corbyn to resign over his promise to renew Trident while defending the right of Russia and North Korea to buy and sell nuclear arms (...without wanting to add to the imbalanced negative coverage of Corbz in the press, his stance on Syria would make me shout “STFU tankie” at him in any undergrad common room.)





> The impact of “Tankies” has become damaging in contemporary discourse. Real, wonderful, radical socialist movements are out there fighting against the real living legacies of Russian imperialism. Unfortunately, Western politics students with 3000+ Twitter followers are taking up their space.


----------



## chilango (Aug 14, 2019)

agricola said:


> Doubt it, even His wafers are made of meat apparently.



Enjoy...

Can one be a Catholic and a vegan at the same time?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2019)

chilango said:


> Enjoy...
> 
> Can one be a Catholic and a vegan at the same time?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Aug 16, 2019)

Willem Van Spronsen: intentional death of an anarchist
Latest article on MS from the pen of "Alexander Norton"


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 17, 2019)

Super security from the tankies there. Reminds me of a load of drunk separatists _not receiving any help._


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 8, 2020)

Thought about starting a tread on the resurgence of self-declared Leninism I increasingly see on social media, both from the UK and the US, but then I thought it fits well enough here. It was a pretty strong stream in Momentum too from what I could make out, though people didn't often declare it public. And I mean among young people in Momentum. Now that project is kind of fucked they feel the need to hide it less I think.

I suspect it's something to do with the left losing all their fights so people desperately trying to find something that works. And it's true that the largely ineffectual 'horizontalism' of the alter-globalisation movement ran into predictable sand - perhaps that's what they're rebelling against. But I find it pretty depressing that people's imaginations are so curtailed that the only way they can dream of success is by returning to the 'successes' of a hundred years ago. Bleugh.


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2020)

Urgh.

Also - perhaps - as people who weren't alive during really existing socialism (or the heyday of the CP and the Trots on the British Left) increase in proportion amongst what passes for the left, memory fades and retrospective vision becomes rosier.


----------



## JimW (Oct 8, 2020)

I do find it interesting. Living here I've become enormously sympathetic to the first generation of revolutionaries, their project and the situation they dealt with, but in any analysis whatever strengths Leninism brought were vastly outweighed by the harm it did to the whole cause of revolution and more importantly to lots of Chinese people. But that question of would they have even got there to fail so spectacularly without it does remain. Still pretty convinced liberal alternatives would have been the old normal of quiet starvation and children being sold instead of the horrors of the monster Mao.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 8, 2020)

JimW said:


> I do find it interesting. Living here I've become enormously sympathetic to the first generation of revolutionaries, their project and the situation they dealt with, but in any analysis whatever strengths Leninism brought were vastly outweighed by the harm it did to the whole cause of revolution and more importantly to lots of Chinese people. But that question of would they have even got there to fail so spectacularly without it does remain. Still pretty convinced liberal alternatives would have been the old normal of quiet starvation and children being sold instead of the horrors of the monster Mao.


I guess seeing only the choice between a kick in the teeth or a kick in the balls is what I mean by a failure of imagination.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 8, 2020)

I've also seen people changing over the last few years - like this guy who did not used to talk like this: https://twitter.com/FranckMagennis

He moved from a Novara media use of the word communism (attempting to open it up) to a basically Leninist use of the word communism within a few years.


----------



## Sue (Oct 8, 2020)

JimW, are you allowed to express such sentiments about Mao? (I mean there not here.)


----------



## JimW (Oct 8, 2020)

Sue said:


> JimW, are you allowed to express such sentiments about Mao? (I mean there not here.)


I was actually being a bit deliberately over the top there, parodying the liberal history. I don't like this idea he was a monster as opposed to a product of the times and circumstances and of course Leninism, though I do think he was responsible for some criminal failures. There was a period when it was definitely fine to say far worse, though with the Xi regime it's become more orthodox again. Now you can bemoan their economic policies but not their persons I reckon. And it's all been stripped of any politics. If you want to talk about what the Cultural Revolution was outside of some cod court politics analysis you need to look to byways or literature. I think a big part of the problem is there's so much to say but so little has yet been debated in public.


----------



## JimW (Oct 8, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I guess seeing only the choice between a kick in the teeth or a kick in the balls is what I mean by a failure of imagination.


Yes, and I should stress by first generation I mean all those who joined the revolution with a pretty clear understanding of the weaknesses/dangers of the Leninist party but in that bind of Japanese aggression and the failed example of the Nationalists rather than the Party tops who by and large bar a few soldiers really have no excuse.


----------



## Sue (Oct 8, 2020)

Thanks JimW, that's very interesting. I'm just really curious to understand how they try to square the circle of the mythology round Mao, increasing capitalism and hindsight for relatively recent events and what ordinary people think/feel they can say about it.


----------



## JimW (Oct 8, 2020)

I know I have this strong feeling now that I want to be fighting a class war not a culture war. Perhaps others are thinking Leninism means that; I know I feel culturally out of place in the liberal left and they don't look to really have a vision beyond an amelioration of where we are. Is it really impossible to imagine another world any more?


----------



## JimW (Oct 8, 2020)

Sue said:


> Thanks JimW, that's very interesting. I'm just really curious to understand how they try to square the circle of the mythology round Mao, increasing capitalism and hindsight for relatively recent events and what ordinary people think/feel they can say about it.


It's such a vital history. There was a point last year when i was doing subtitles for a documentary about the beating to death of a teacher by her students in Xi'an during the early period of the CR and also reading a novel by an author I really like set during the same time and based on his own experiences as a Red Guard, soldier sent to suppress the left and then bloke who went on to do OK in the reform years and what did it all mean and he gave it fantastic title Lessons in Democracy. It's all true and all part of what trying and failing to make a revolution means and when this generation dies I'm afraid we'll be left with the liberal curation of history on one side and the official line in all its worthlessness on the other.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

might be missing it, but has Red LDN gone off FB ?


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 13, 2021)

cantsin said:


> might be missing it, but has Red LDN gone off FB ?


We can but hope


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

tufty79 said:


> We can but hope



always had sneaky liking for some of their meme game, but the Tankiesm was obvs daft as f*ck


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 13, 2021)

Looking like it, searching turns up the old punk band and an Arsenal fan page but not much else. Did they somehow get caught up in the great Q purge or something?


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 13, 2021)

It's the boys behind it I have no truck with, not the content.


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 13, 2021)

cantsin said:


> might be missing it, but has Red LDN gone off FB ?



Months ago


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Months ago



ah, ta 


tufty79 said:


> It's the boys behind it I have no truck with, not the content.



was never sure who it was, outside of a slightly caustic ' RMT - strictly the office bods' comment on here


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

just came across this whilst having a pointless root about - whatever his ( perceived / actual ) political shortcomings , ED was ( is ? ) as sharp a prominent  working class socialist voice as I remember in this country for a fair old while - Sir Keir + Co's  bullsh*t 2nd REF strategy, along with McDonnel's crummy support, and Corbyn's weak capitulation, did well to snuff this kind of msg out so effectively, or GE2020 cld have been v different.


----------



## splonkydoo (Jan 18, 2021)

So in a painfully funny but welcome turn of events, the Connolly Youth Movement have just split off from their parent party - the Communist Party of Ireland. The CYM has grown in the last few years from a totally moribund organisation, to one which is active in a good few areas across Ireland. 

As I saw commented elsewhere the older leadership were so fixated on the trotskyist bogeyman in the workers movement, that they never saw the RL facebook fans coming straight for their youth section.









						CYM Statement on Disaffiliation - Connolly Youth Movement
					

PUBLIC STATEMENT CYM Ard Comhairle, 18/01/21 On the 9th of January, 2021 the Connolly Youth Movement convened an Extraordinary Ard Fheis (EOAF) to determine the nature of our relationship to the Communist Party of Ireland. This EOAF was called as a result of a series of political discussions...



					cym.ie


----------



## splonkydoo (Jan 18, 2021)

Also, it's probably the very first real taste of bureaucratic stalinism for many of those involved. And indeed, it seems they got a very thorough demonstration of it. Be interesting to wait and see what the CPI response will be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Looking like it, searching turns up the old punk band and an Arsenal fan page but not much else. Did they somehow get caught up in the great Q purge or something?


Not the book by Stewart home?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 18, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> So in a painfully funny but welcome turn of events, the Connolly Youth Movement have just split off from their parent party - the Communist Party of Ireland. The CYM has grown in the last few years from a totally moribund organisation, to one which is active in a good few areas across Ireland.
> 
> As I saw commented elsewhere the older leadership were so fixated on the trotskyist bogeyman in the workers movement, that they never saw the RL facebook fans coming straight for their youth section.
> 
> ...



How are Red London connected to this sorry?

E2A: Also do you happen to know what the split is about? Couldn't make it out from that link. So the CYM left the CPI because of a factional clique but what were the factional clique factionalising around? 

Its been a slow day...


----------



## splonkydoo (Jan 18, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> How are Red London connected to this sorry?
> 
> E2A: Also do you happen to know what the split is about? Couldn't make it out from that link. So the CYM left the CPI because of a factional clique but what were the factional clique factionalising around?
> 
> Its been a slow day...



The CYM have certainly been influenced by the RL crowd, but in some ways to their credit are not quite as daft. They are known nationally for being incredibly sectarian, edgy, young stalinists. They are also fraternally connected to the YCL. That's the connection, if you will, other than their not being a whole pile of other threads around here which cater to the goings on of CP youth sections.

The split is basically as it says. The CP leadership are a pretty ineffective, conservative, and stagnant bunch. And are a bit dismayed at the prospect of a youth section they can't easily have under their thumb any more, and who had I think been recently challenging for some leadership positions (their numbers i'm sure had begun to eclipse the parent organisation). Ultimately it's down to a bit of control freakery, and understandably not wanting to trust the kids with the keys to the car.

There are also some bits about the CYM supporting disso's ( for some soicalist-republican clout), which pretty much goes against the (now long-term) CPI project of tailing Sinn Fein.
As well, probably some rumblings about the youth section being ultra-leftist (they have squatted one or two buuldings in the recent past).

Other than that... the only piece of bare political substance in the statement is this:

"12. The clique has led the Party down a narrow, reformist cul-de-sac. It offers no vision, no strategy for realising the dictatorship of the proletariat."

To which you can only ask, did these folk not know what the CPI was before they joined??? This is no big secret!


----------



## petee (Jan 19, 2021)

it's not often i read stuff about the CPI. thanks!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 19, 2021)

The AWL's piece from March 2019 on Red London including 18 page dossier is quite something:





						Morning Star: sack Sandy Hale/Alexander Norton!
					

Workers’ Liberty has published a dossier which deals with the actions of a poisonous, secretive clique, “Red London”. This briefing is important reading for any labour movement activist concerned to uphold basic, decent norms and comradeship inside the labour movement.




					www.workersliberty.org


----------



## LDC (Jan 19, 2021)

"The clique fragmented in late 2018 after some sort of dispute at a south London house party."

Just fantastic. And just as they were so close to seizing State power and declaring a worker's paradise too.


----------



## killer b (Jan 19, 2021)

I have to say that one of the things I most enjoyed about Red London was it's 'long record of anonymous and unevidenced smears' against the AWL.


----------



## LDC (Jan 19, 2021)

I definitely appreciated some of their digs at 'lifestyle and identity politics' and the worst aspects of some anarchists tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> "The clique fragmented in late 2018 after some sort of dispute at a south London house party."
> 
> Just fantastic. And just as they were so close to the seizing State power and declaring a worker's paradise too.


what's not so well known is they split into factions known as the kitchen and the stairs


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The AWL's piece from March 2019 on Red London including 18 page dossier is quite something:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



led me to this longer AWL dossier


			https://www.workersliberty.org/files/RL_briefing_colour.pdf
		


Anyhow, are they no more for good then? Does not having a facebook page = not existing?


----------



## chilango (Jan 19, 2021)

Says a lot about how my day is going that I read that dossier.

Freaks. All of them.


----------



## nogojones (Jan 19, 2021)

I tuned into a stream on Twitch at the weekend, to catch a DJ I like. It was half filled with people from the HSMMG group (a bunch of people who like happy hardcore, makina, gabber and other hard mental music) and a load of YCL members. The crew organising it was Redtek, who seem to be a bunch of posh young tankies organising free parties. The music was all pretty good, apart from a lad on a kazoo and a ukulele knocking out pop dance classics.

A pretty strange event all told. Are the YCL popular enough to have real young people involved or is it just some LARPing thing?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> I have to say that one of the things I most enjoyed about Red London was it's 'long record of anonymous and unevidenced smears' against the AWL.


Whats AWL's crime of all crimes?


----------



## killer b (Jan 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Whats AWL's crime of all crimes?


I'm not sure they did anything too bad beyond being the kind of prissy trots who regularly produce 18-page dossiers, I just enjoyed watching the fight.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Whats AWL's crime of all crimes?


They're a weirdo cult with dodgy anti-imperialist positions and even dodgier infiltration tactics. Quite big in my area and apparently they make being in the local Labour party a living nightmare.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> ...who regularly produce 18-page dossiers


you should see some urban threads


----------



## nogojones (Jan 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> They're a weirdo cult with dodgy anti-imperialist positions and even dodgier infiltration tactics. Quite big in my area and apparently they make being in the local Labour party a living nightmare.


Is being in the Labour Party without the AWL's intervention any better?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 19, 2021)

Attacking the shitness of the various left sects is a good thing and we could all do with a laugh. 

I think with Red London that goes along with legitimising the other shit they are doing though, like security for Beeley. And their PFWC anti-identity politics (which is a reductive form of identity politics itself).

And if you don't buy into their ironic (or is it) tankie politics, then it's just cynicism that reinforces that everything is shit.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 19, 2021)

Also calling random people on the left nonces on facebook is the other side of the coin of people calling Michael Rosen an anti-semite on twitter.


----------



## chilango (Jan 19, 2021)

It's got absolutely fuck all to do with any sort of a "better world". It's nasty, culty, cunty behaviour that actively harms any attempt at building w/c organisation.

Try showing any of this shit to your neighbours, your workmates etc. What reaction would you get?

Utterly toxic stuff.

Anybody interested in social change should have nothing to do with them.


*Red London, but tbh I fear much the same should be said about the AWL too.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> I have to say that one of the things I most enjoyed about Red London was it's 'long record of anonymous and unevidenced smears' against the AWL.


At the risk of outing myself as a soggy trot liberal, I think there's an argument to be made that just calling everyone you don't like a paedo is... not a particularly great or healthy development


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I definitely appreciated some of their digs at 'lifestyle and identity politics' and the worst aspects of some anarchists tbf.


Like, surely that stuff works a bit better if it's not coming from weird flatcap identity politics freaks who decided to become Stalinists because other anarchists wouldn't talk to them any more? "Why is everyone else on the left so weird and offputting? Anyway, here's some more posts about how great Stalin was, top bants lads."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> They're a weirdo cult with dodgy anti-imperialist positions and even dodgier infiltration tactics. Quite big in my area and apparently they make being in the local Labour party a living nightmare.


doesn't sound any worse than being in the labour party would be in any case, as auld nogojones pointed out


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

soggy


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

chilango said:


> Try showing any of this shit to your neighbours, your workmates etc. What reaction would you get?


i think the red london stuff is probably the equivalent of some US alt-right stuff...which has found an audience and success with certain people. I doubt theres much a UK audience for it though
what is a good thing to show your average neighbour though? its a problem.


----------



## killer b (Jan 19, 2021)

Try showing your average neighbour / workmates many threads on here and you'd probably get a similarly horrified reaction tbf.


----------



## chilango (Jan 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> Try showing your average neighbour / workmates many threads on here and you'd probably get a similarly horrified reaction tbf.



Indeed. But Urban does not claim to be a political intervention.


----------



## chilango (Jan 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what is a good thing to show your average neighbour though? its a problem.





Spoiler











...and I'm only half-joking. The Lib Dems, the Greens (and even very briefly the BNP and the IWCA) were often quite effective at establishing community presences with regular dog shit politics interventions.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 19, 2021)

Well the boring answer is that you start neighbours off on local stuff like COVID-19 mutual aid networks, etc. And not niche subcultural stuff. 

Round my way there have been good struggles recently on getting a covid testing centre removed from a small estate's play area (success) and stopping a very old tree being chopped down by developers (fail). That seems more real than jokes on facebook about whether or not the people's front of judea should be icepicked or whatever.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 19, 2021)

Generally discussing how shit the council is, is a good way to go.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 19, 2021)

I appreciate that this does really feel like a story someone would make up on the internet to try and score points, but I swear it actually happened: I was once talking to an RMT rep on a picket line who came out, unprompted, with something along the lines of "have you heard of that Red London? What a bunch of fucking freaks." I think this was when they had a relatively high profile in the aftermath of The Great Houseparty Incident.


----------



## killer b (Jan 19, 2021)

Anyway, no actual defence of Red London, and I don't disagree with any of the recent posts. But I did laugh at the icepick jokes.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 19, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> The CYM have certainly been influenced by the RL crowd, but in some ways to their credit are not quite as daft. They are known nationally for being incredibly sectarian, edgy, young stalinists. They are also fraternally connected to the YCL. That's the connection, if you will, other than their not being a whole pile of other threads around here which cater to the goings on of CP youth sections.
> 
> The split is basically as it says. The CP leadership are a pretty ineffective, conservative, and stagnant bunch. And are a bit dismayed at the prospect of a youth section they can't easily have under their thumb any more, and who had I think been recently challenging for some leadership positions (their numbers i'm sure had begun to eclipse the parent organisation). Ultimately it's down to a bit of control freakery, and understandably not wanting to trust the kids with the keys to the car.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this. I see now it was foolish of me to look for substance!


----------



## Combustible (Jan 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> They're a weirdo cult with dodgy anti-imperialist positions.



I thought the AWL were the opposite, in that they refused to back dodgy regimes or groups in the name of anti-imperialism/were cheerleaders for imperialist wars/somewhere in between these two extremes (depending on who you ask)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Quite big in my area and apparently they make being in the local Labour party a living nightmare.



Are the AWL ‘quite big’ anywhere?? Do you mean that there are 3 or 4 of them from the local university?

Fair play to them on the latter point though...


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well the boring answer is that you start neighbours off on local stuff like COVID-19 mutual aid networks, etc. And not niche subcultural stuff.


oh sure, definitely agree on that and even chilangos  libdem newsletter etc, but i mean when you want to move up a gear from there into something more overt
i guess the next level for me was stuff left-critical of the state and media - chomksy in my case. all seemed very common sense, fact based, and untainted by leftist history.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Generally discussing how shit the council is, is a good way to go.


strangely i have never had a conversation about how well any council is doing


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> soggy


Hobnob?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The AWL's piece from March 2019 on Red London including 18 page dossier is quite something:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fascinating.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The AWL's piece from March 2019 on Red London including 18 page dossier is quite something:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blimey. I knew the ginger twat was a weapon, but...


----------



## Sue (Jan 19, 2021)

So, who's going to demonstrate this 'vigilance salute' for me..?  Never know when it might come in handy.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Jan 19, 2021)

I'm not really sure they thought that one through properly:


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 19, 2021)

On a side note, while I was doing the image search for the above post, came across this amazingly Chris Morris headline:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fascinating.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


>


My new auto response: mark noble


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

tufty79 said:


> My new auto response: mark noble
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 250056


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Nork mubble


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

In happier days Sandy,  when a member of Liberty and Solidarity, was on the Ian Bone show, as was also Paul Stott.









						Anarchism In The UK #17: SANDY HALE (LIBERTY & SOLIDARITY/IWW)
					

First broadcast Sunday 18th January 2009 on Resonance FM  IAN BONE interviews SANDY HALE  "Tonight's guest is Sandy Hale, a member of the newly formed Liberty & Solidarity organistation."  Links: Ian Bone's blog Resonance FM Liberty & Solidarity Industrial Workers of the World UK website




					www.podomatic.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> In happier days Sandy,  when a member of Liberty and Solidarity, was on the Ian Bone show, as was also Paul Stott.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was on that show. Thankfully the only episode that got "lost".


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I was on that show. Thankfully the only episode that got "lost".


Must be some where, put out a reward. Wasn't Pickman's model  on some radio programme ?


----------



## belboid (Jan 19, 2021)

Combustible said:


> I thought the AWL were the opposite, in that they refused to back dodgy regimes or groups in the name of anti-imperialism/were cheerleaders for imperialist wars/somewhere in between these two extremes (depending on who you ask)


They believe in lots of local sub-imperialisms, particularly re Iran which is the most evil state in the world. Thus they didn't really oppose gulf war 1.  They're most notable for being ultra pro-Israel, which needs to exist because Arabs and Jews can't live peaceably alongside one another. Because Arabs are virtually nazi's.  

In Labour party terms though, they're far from being the worst sect involved, not even the worst left sect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must be some where, put out a reward. Wasn't Pickman's model  on some radio programme ?


i have been on several radio programmes. and indeed on television. as well as the occasional appearance in the quality press.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i have been on several radio programmes. and indeed on television. as well as the occasional appearance in the quality press.





Actually, I just realised, I have too


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

tufty79 said:


> Actually, I just realised, I have too


yes, i have been seen in the pages of the _daily telegraph_ as well as in _an phoblacht / republican news._


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must be some where, put out a reward. Wasn't Pickman's model  on some radio programme ?


I was (weirdly enough) on a demo the same day with @Pickmansmodel in Hackney that got a bit lively.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I was (weirdly enough) on a demo the same day with @pickmansmodel in Hackney that got a bit lively.


ah yes, i recall


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i have been seen in the pages of the _daily telegraph_ as well as in _an phoblacht / republican news._


Post it! Post it! Post it!



Or do I need to ask mark Noble  to ask?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> In happier days Sandy,  when a member of Liberty and Solidarity, was on the Ian Bone show, as was also Paul Stott.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sandy Hale must have set a track record of being in lefty/anarchist groups by what he says in his interview. The Paul Stott one is actually very intereresting


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

tufty79 said:


> Post it! Post it! Post it!
> 
> 
> 
> Or do I need to ask mark Noble  to ask?


i regret i haven't copies of the pictures.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Nork marble


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i have been seen in the pages of the _daily telegraph_ as well as in _an phoblacht / republican news._


I was one the FRONT page of the Telegraph so there


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was one the FRONT page of the Telegraph so there


sadly i wasn't given the front page option or i'd have taken it.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sandy Hale must have set a track record of being in lefty/anarchist groups by what he says in his interview. The Paul Stott one is actually very intereresting


He knocked about with the Whitechapel Anarchist Group at LARC and also at Freedom bookshop. He fell out with a lot of people directly and loads more indirectly. 

I know nothing of Solidarity or Liberty


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was one the FRONT page of the Telegraph so there


had you just got your a level results?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was one the FRONT page of the Telegraph so there


I was on the front page of the Sunday Times during Wapping. Big close up picture of me throwing a full brick. Caused a few ructions that did as I dont really look like anyone else.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> had you just got your a level results?


He was jumping and smiling!


----------



## tim (Jan 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i think the red london stuff is probably the equivalent of some US alt-right stuff...which has found an audience and success with certain people. I doubt theres much a UK audience for it though
> what is a good thing to show your average neighbour though? its a problem.


Not a problem showing it to the neighbours as long as you keep it away from the servants


----------



## tim (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i have been on several radio programmes. and indeed on television. as well as the occasional appearance in the quality press.


In 1988 I was on the front page of the Morning Star with a Czechoslovak man who gave me a crystal dolphin ( not life sized).


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

tim said:


> In 1988 I was on the front page of the Morning Star with a Czechoslovak man who gave me a crystal dolphin ( not life sized).


was there some connection with animal hypnotism?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

tim said:


> In 1988 I was on the front page of the Morning Star with a Czechoslovak man who gave me a crystal dolphin ( not life sized).


Can we see the dolphin esteemed comrade?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

I think the dolphin is going to win it. Unless of course Texamo wants to pop up with a picture of Putin pinning a "Lenin as a baby" badge on his red breast.


----------



## tim (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Can we see the dolphin esteemed comrade?


I last saw it in my mother's Labrenza next to an ornament filled by my sister with multi-coloured Isle of Wight sands


----------



## belboid (Jan 19, 2021)

tim said:


> I last saw it in my mother's Labrenza next to an ornament filled by my sister with multi-coloured Isle of Wight sands


your mother lets you see her Labrenza?! What is the world coming to?


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was one the FRONT page of the Telegraph so there


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was one the FRONT page of the Telegraph so there



SNAP!


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 19, 2021)

Yeah, well.

I was on page 2 of the sun, and other pages of all the nationals plus the local press. I was on nationwide, calender, in My Weekly as a feature....


All I did was be born


----------



## Humberto (Jan 19, 2021)

I was on Who do you Think You Are for about 5 seconds


----------



## TopCat (Jan 20, 2021)

tufty79 said:


> Yeah, well.
> 
> I was on page 2 of the sun, and other pages of all the nationals plus the local press. I was on nationwide, calender, in My Weekly as a feature....
> 
> ...


Fantastic expression on your face there. Really deserves a zoom and snip.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 20, 2021)

I will delete it if you think this is intrusive tufty79


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 20, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Jan 20, 2021)

If we're doing great newspaper appearances of yesteryear, I was the Christmas Baby in the Skegness Standard, 1964.

Unfortunately I no longer have the picture...


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 20, 2021)

Meme me up, Toppy 


Thank you TopCat , that's amazing! 



 💖🧠👩‍🚀❤️👑♥️


----------



## ska invita (Jan 20, 2021)

its nice to see that with the poison of red london gone, peace and harmony returns to the world, where baby pictures and anecdotes about appearing in newspapers can once again flourish


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 20, 2021)

From the AWL Dossier. I don't know about anyone else, but I was shocked to find out that this image was doctored.


----------



## nogojones (Jan 20, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> SNAP!


I made it to the front page of the Telegraph as well. I don't think it's a high bar


----------



## Sue (Jan 20, 2021)

Am I the only person who hasn't appeared on the front page of the Telegraph? I am such a loser.


----------



## krink (Jan 20, 2021)

From a few years back, also made some appearances regarding court cases in the 90s. The illustration is from a much bigger piece a bunch of us did for Halloween one year. We invited the journalist down for a "chat" but he sensibly chose not to attend


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 23, 2021)




----------



## nogojones (Oct 23, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


>



Discussed a bit in your own thread here:









						Young Communist League
					

I knew about Shakey but had no idea about George Michael. :eek: (Now going to have to revisit the Wham back catalogue so I can tease out (semi) hidden political messages. :hmm: )  Pay special attention to the lyrics of careless whisper




					www.urban75.net


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 23, 2021)

D'oh!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2021)

What did happen to RL? I assume it got banned for FB violation or something.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 18, 2022)

Yikes. Can't imagine this'll be thrilling the CPB...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Yikes. Can't imagine this'll be thrilling the CPB...



What have they all got in common?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 18, 2022)

They were certainly better dressed.


----------



## LDC (Jun 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> What have they all got in common?



They're all cunts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> They're all cunts?


Dead cunts - two things in common


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 19, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> What have they all got in common?



I imagine if you asked them you would get some answer along the lines of them all being equally based or something.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I imagine if you asked them you would get some answer along the lines of them all being equally based or something.



“Based”?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

Urban Dictionary: based
					

A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang. The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased. The latter usage is the...




					www.urbandictionary.com
				




(if someone uses it seriously in a sentence you can pretty much guarantee they're a fucking idiot)


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Urban Dictionary: based
> 
> 
> A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang. The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased. The latter usage is the...
> ...



Carbon based?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 19, 2022)

Turkey baste


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> (if someone uses it seriously in a sentence you can pretty much guarantee they're a fucking idiot)



I remember a couple of years ago (ish) on here, someone said the same of the term
“woke”.

Outside of blues songs, obv.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

Whoever it was they weren't wrong. The only sensible use of "woke" was in its very early stages when it emerged as part of African-American slang to talk about people who had identified how structural racism works in the US. Everything after that was a mounting clusterfuck of bad takes leading to, at this stage, incredible levels of incoherent shrieking.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Whoever it was they weren't wrong. The only sensible use of "woke" was in its very early stages when it emerged as part of African-American slang to talk about people who had identified how structural racism works in the US. Everything after that was a mounting clusterfuck of bad takes leading to, at this stage, incredible levels of incoherent shrieking.



Suspicious of type of person that uses it as code. Usually they have serious issues with BLM, "anteefa", CRT, etc. Of course, to them, anyone who has something to say about inequalities and inherent discrimination is "leftist".


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

Pretty much. On the right it's a pantomime villain while on the left it's either denied as a word ("there's no such thing as woke it's just culture wars bullshit") or embraced as a totem by wannabe liberal worthies who think Starmer taking a knee is a powerful symbolic gesture.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Pretty much. On the right it's a pantomime villain while on the left it's either denied as a word ("there's no such thing as woke it's just culture wars bullshit") or embraced as a totem by wannabe liberal worthies who think Starmer taking a knee is a powerful symbolic gesture.



The culture wars are quite distinct among wars generally, in being comprised of two sides that think it is only the other side that is fighting.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

I think the left kids itself more than the right on that score tbh - the hard right's seen itself as being at war with the scourge of cultural Marxism for a long time and much of that has leaked into right's softer environs.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Pretty much. On the right it's a pantomime villain while on the left it's either denied as a word ("there's no such thing as woke it's just culture wars bullshit") or embraced as a totem by wannabe liberal worthies who think Starmer taking a knee is a powerful symbolic gesture.



Yeah, this is the kind of thing that the Americans get riled up about. And it's not just confined to using it against black concerns, it's increasingly being used against LGTB people or anyone who empathises with.

From a site once used to post on but stopped because of


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 19, 2022)

Is this linked to Red London then? Otherwise it's an ambiguous bump.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

It could have gone in either here or the YCL thread tbh, much of a muchness in terms of the crew involved. I thought this fit the "joke Stalinism?" bit better.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 19, 2022)

It does look the same patter so I'm not disputing that I just assumed it had died a while back.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 19, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is this linked to Red London then? Otherwise it's an ambiguous bump.



Conversation had moved on to the use of the word  "based" in regards to the march and onto the uses and misuese of  "woke", culture wars etc


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 19, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Conversation had moved on to the use of the word  "based" in regards to the march and onto the uses and misuese of  "woke", culture wars etc


Strange to bump this thread then which refers to specific people at a specific time.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 19, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Strange to bump this thread then which refers to specific people at a specific time.



ok


----------



## nogojones (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Yikes. Can't imagine this'll be thrilling the CPB...


I thought the CPB would quite like this sort of thing. They do enough of it.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I thought the CPB would quite like this sort of thing. They do enough of it.


Their broad strategy is incrementally building the British Road to Socialism, which requires then to be at least semi legible to the broader public. While a lot of their membership are like this in reality, the leadership is canny enough to realise how bad paramilitary Stalinist larping looks. Plus the party's official line on Stalin worship certainly is not pro - to the point that they specifically banned the YCL from doing it last year.


----------



## nogojones (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Their broad strategy is incrementally building the British Road to Socialism, which requires then to be at least semi legible to the broader public. While a lot of their membership are like this in reality, the leadership is canny enough to realise how bad paramilitary Stalinist larping looks. Plus the party's official line on Stalin worship certainly is not pro - to the point that they specifically banned the YCL from doing it last year.


Ah OK.

I just assumed. I know of CPBers locally and they're all really old (if not dead already) and assumed that the YCL was a larger part of the organisation and more "dynamic" than the old skool crew


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

There's a big generation gap within the party of a primarily much older cadre in their mid-40s+ and a bunch of younger people in the YCL who are doing most of the cringe stuff. Though when I say young, many of the YCL leading lights are mid to late 20s or older afaik. It's shaping up to be quite the internal barney from what I can see.


----------



## chilango (Jun 19, 2022)

Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh! 
Alan Partridge...and Lynn!


----------



## TopCat (Jun 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I thought the CPB would quite like this sort of thing. They do enough of it.


The Commies I admire would shudder at the lack of discipline, the obvious lack of a high protein diet, the lack of order and a really really rubbish chant.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 19, 2022)

Cheeky finger salute at the end makes it a contender for the "a little bit ISIS" thread as well.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Urban Dictionary: based
> 
> 
> A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang. The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased. The latter usage is the...
> ...


Or to be fair, just young. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

I know plenty of young people who don't talk about things being based, it's a particular subset made up mostly of fashy cunts and tankies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2022)

.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 19, 2022)

I've only ever heard of it on the context of Based Amy.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I know plenty of young people who don't talk about things being based, it's a particular subset made up mostly of fashy cunts and tankies.



I've heard it used by younger folks who are totally non-political, just using it to mean "awesome." Not sure how widespread it is though.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 19, 2022)

based in pretty prevalent but it's still a little bit nerdy i think.

anyway, can we get some more details about them lot chanting stalin's name openly in london in 2022?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

Flavour said:


> based in pretty prevalent but it's still a little bit nerdy i think.
> 
> anyway, can we get some more details about them lot chanting stalin's name openly in london in 2022?


Sure - here's pro-Remain leftie Michael Chessum being somewhat perturbed that YCL ringleaders started calling him a nonce when he tried to hand leaflets to their members.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 19, 2022)

awesome stuff. how many members do the YCL have?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Yikes. Can't imagine this'll be thrilling the CPB...



What a bunch of utter bellends.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

Their sister branch in the US was reckoning 500 as of 2021, I'd be surprised if there weren't some classic Leninist inflation going on there though. There's definitely been a fair amount of expansion – they had 100 members in 2016 with nine people in their Central Committee, which has now expanded to 20 – and it doesn't take a lot of research to link MO and even the odd name to the old Red London crowd.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 19, 2022)

Flavour said:


> awesome stuff. how many members do the YCL have?


I don't know but from what I hear Socialist Appeal had more than them out in attendance at the TUC demo on Saturday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I don't know but from what I hear Socialist Appeal had more than them out in attendance at the TUC demo on Saturday.


Didn't see rl but i did see a load of sa, more than I knew existed. Sa are likely the worst named organisation on the left


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 19, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Sa are likely the worst named organisation on the left


I agree. Socialist Appeal sounds like a charity doesn't it.


----------



## LDC (Jun 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I agree. Socialist Appeal sounds like a charity doesn't it.



Name has dating website vibes.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 19, 2022)

Just £2 a month to Socialist Appeal will keep a Socialist clothed and fed.

And they'll always have the option of being trained to be professional organisers.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 19, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Didn't see rl but i did see a load of sa, more than I knew existed. Sa are likely the worst named organisation on the left


I think the Corbyn years were relatively good for SApp (what with SAlt there's now at least two groups on the left with the same initials. Oh, and SAct makes three), since them and the AWL were virtually the only trots keeping the "socialist Labour" torch burning through the harsh Blair and Miliband years. On the other hand, I can't imagine Starmer's Labour would be a particularly welcoming recruiting ground for them.
Where I am, YCL manage to make themselves very _visible_, but they don't seem to do much of use, even by the relatively low standards of the left. Our local mayday event was pretty shit, and the YCL lot seemingly decided to dodge going on the actual march itself and just showed up at the finishing line, all masked up and chanting, iirc, "Lenin - Party - YCL". Which feels like cheating, although I can't decide whether the actual march itself would have been more or less depressing if we'd had them present and doing that the whole time.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 19, 2022)

i notice that the YCL crowd are exclusively white and almost exclusive male. nice


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 19, 2022)

What's the upper age of the YCP?


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> What's the upper age of the YCP?



59, I think.


----------



## WhyLikeThis (Jun 19, 2022)

Flavour said:


> i notice that the YCL crowd are exclusively white and almost exclusive male. nice



Counter Terrorism Command lacks diversity.


----------



## Combustible (Jun 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Their broad strategy is incrementally building the British Road to Socialism, which requires then to be at least semi legible to the broader public. While a lot of their membership are like this in reality, the leadership is canny enough to realise how bad paramilitary Stalinist larping looks. Plus the party's official line on Stalin worship certainly is not pro - to the point that they specifically banned the YCL from doing it last year.


I was asked by an Albanian last week why so many of the British left have an obsession with Enver Hoxha, I assume this would mostly be YCL types?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2022)

Combustible said:


> I was asked by an Albanian last week why so many of the British left have an obsession with Enver Hoxha, I assume this would mostly be YCL types?


i remember going to a green ink irish bookfair at the camden irish centre in the mid/late 90s where one stall had for sale an admirable collection of works by the great man.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jun 20, 2022)

Based? The Anarchist Federation use it:


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 20, 2022)

Anarchism is first and foremost about liberty?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 20, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Anarchism is first and foremost about liberty?


There's no first and foremost, it's a range of goals: liberty, solidarity, social and economic justice, anti-capitalism, stateless communism, abolition of class society...

ETA Also, the first time I ever heard the term "based" was yesterday reading this thread.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Anarchism is first and foremost about liberty?



Not so much these days, but black is very slimming and there are often opportunities for shouting.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 20, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Anarchism is first and foremost about liberty?



Some caveats required.


----------



## krink (Jun 20, 2022)

Based is really common in the online left and terminally online people generally. All the YouTube/Twitch lefties have used it for a couple of years. it's actually going out of fashion if anything. Keep up.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

krink said:


> Based is really common in the online left and terminally online people generally. All the YouTube/Twitch lefties have used it for a couple of years. it's actually going out of fashion if anything. Keep up.



I thought the left equivalent was “sound”, (though it really means the opposite).  I confess I may have been out of the loop for long enough for this to be no longer the case.

“Sound” is (or at least was), also used by fundamentalist religious groups as it happens, but I expect a lot of the left is far enough removed from such groups to be unaware of this.


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 21, 2022)

Combustible said:


> I was asked by an Albanian last week why so many of the British left have an obsession with Enver Hoxha, I assume this would mostly be YCL types?


CPB-ML publishers of the Worker magazine, founded by Reg Birch and had a bit of a strong hold in London UnIson for years.


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## LDC (Jun 21, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Anarchism is first and foremost about liberty?



_Individual _liberty no less. The following thread does get better tbf.


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## hitmouse (Jun 21, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> (if someone uses it seriously in a sentence you can pretty much guarantee they're a fucking idiot)





krink said:


> Based is really common in the online left and terminally online people generally. All the YouTube/Twitch lefties have used it for a couple of years.


I don't think there's anything in these two statements that contradict each other.


8ball said:


> I thought the left equivalent was “sound”, (though it really means the opposite).  I confess I may have been out of the loop for long enough for this to be no longer the case.


Is "sound" a particularly lefty thing? I thought it was just like a thing that people said?

Anyway, perhaps this is a petty point to make, but on visiting the RMT pickets today, saw people out from at least two trot sects, people down from PCS and UCU... did not see any identifiable members of the Ho Chi Minh-Che Guevara-Stalin brigade.


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## 8ball (Jun 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is "sound" a particularly lefty thing? I thought it was just like a thing that people said?



Also heard it used as “suitably trustworthy to involve in activities of questionable legality” to be fair.
But yeah, if righties people were to say it I might not be aware cos I don’t know many.

And if “based” turns up among the left too, then, dunno - maybe just my biased sample. <shrugs>


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 21, 2022)

Yeah sound means kosher in a political context afaik.


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> CPB-ML publishers of the Worker magazine, founded by Reg Birch and had a bit of a strong hold in London UnIson for years.


We had a Maoist as an appointed Asst Branch Secretary in Manchester Unison. Effing useless, made the  selling  of New York for some beads and trinkets  look like hard    bargainers


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## AmateurAgitator (Jun 21, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> We had a Maoist as an appointed Asst Branch Secretary in Manchester Unison. Effing useless, made the  selling  of New York for some beads and trinkets  look like hard    bargainers


Maoists tend to be nutters so I'm told. The CPB-ML did once include Alexei Sayle though, although he was by no means a good, loyal party bod bless him.


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Maoists tend to be nutters so I'm told. The CPB-ML did once include Alexei Sayle though, although he was by no means a good, loyal party bod bless him.


I read a book he had a chapter in written by children of Communists . The argument / split over China / Russia communist parties is just a footnote now but on that section of the left was a big thing . Reg Birch who was I think asst gen secretary of the Engineering Union was a Maoist .


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## AmateurAgitator (Jun 21, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I read a book he had a chapter in written by children of Communists . The argument / split over China / Russia communist parties is just a footnote now but on that section of the left was a big thing . Reg Birch who was I think asst gen secretary of the Engineering Union was a Maoist .


Blimey. I enjoyed Alexei Sayles' autobiographical books, don't think I've read anything else by him though. He seems like a pretty decent and genuine fella and I like his sense of humour..


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 21, 2022)

Stalin ate my homework does give a bit of background to Sayles upbringing and the family dabbling in eblok stuff


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## RD2003 (Jun 22, 2022)

Think the last time I met/ spoke to a YCL member was on the famous Mansfield demo during the miners' strike. Even then he was thinking of joining some Trot group.

Surely this neo-Stalinism, as far as it exists in real life, is a feature of the complete failure of the non-Leninist/ anarchist left?


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## 8ball (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Surely this neo-Stalinism, as far as it exists in real life, is a feature of the complete failure of the non-Leninist/ anarchist left?



It it still a feature of such if it does not exist in real life?


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Surely this neo-Stalinism, as far as it exists in real life, is a feature of the complete failure of the non-Leninist/ anarchist left?



I think there's a bit of truth to that on a number of levels. Some of it is a reaction to dominance of the sub-cultural/lifestyle element of much of anarchism in the UK from people that are too young to have any connection to that and feel alienated from it. I mean sometimes the arcane and inefficient meeting facilitation consensus stuff alone is enough to make you think fuck this sometimes. Some is a bit the actual failure of anarchism to have much going on that people can easily 'join' - most anarchists aren't in political groups, but are active in campaigns, direct action groups, etc. And there's more than one person who's prominent in the scene who's been chucked out of a number of anarchist projects due to his continual shit behaviour, who _completely coincidentally _became a Stalinist once he'd exhausted everyone's tolerance.


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## Serge Forward (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Surely this neo-Stalinism, as far as it exists in real life, is a feature of the complete failure of the non-Leninist/ anarchist left?


Eeeee.... you are a buffoon.


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## Serge Forward (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> I think there's a bit of truth to that on a number of levels. Some of it is a reaction to dominance of the sub-cultural/lifestyle element of much of anarchism in the UK from people that are too young to have any connection to that and feel alienated from it. I mean sometimes the arcane and inefficient meeting facilitation consensus stuff alone is enough to make you think fuck this sometimes. Some is a bit the actual failure of anarchism to have much going on that people can easily 'join' - most anarchists aren't in political groups, but are active in campaigns, direct action groups, etc. And there's more than one person who's prominent in the scene who's been chucked out of a number of anarchist projects due to his continual shit behaviour, who _completely coincidentally _became a Stalinist once he'd exhausted everyone's tolerance.


Again, I wouldn't disagree that what passes for an anarchist scene is a pile of cack. None of this is a failure of anarchism though.


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## RD2003 (Jun 22, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Again, I wouldn't disagree that what passes for an anarchist scene is a pile of cack. None of this is a failure of anarchism though.


Anarchism will probably continue to exist as a little sub-culture as long as society does, but the working class will remain oblivious.

This is a nailed-on guarantee.


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## hitmouse (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> And there's more than one person who's prominent in the scene who's been chucked out of a number of anarchist projects due to his continual shit behaviour, who _completely coincidentally _became a Stalinist once he'd exhausted everyone's tolerance.


Wait, just to check, is that actually plural? Anyway, I wonder how their knock-off-black-bloc visual style being heavily influenced by the most performative and spectacular aspects of contemporary anarchism fits in to all this.


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## RD2003 (Jun 22, 2022)

8ball said:


> It it still a feature of such if it does not exist in real life?


The internet and the far left bubble isn't real life.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> The internet and the far left bubble isn't real life.


Yes it is, just not all of real life


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## Serge Forward (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Anarchism will probably continue to exist as a little sub-culture as long as society does, but the working class will remain oblivious.
> 
> This is a nailed-on guarantee.


There are no nailed-on guarantees. I agree that the so-called anarchist scene will continue to be crap, but also the bolshevik left (whether Trotskyist, Stalinist or whatever neo-Leninist mishmash of your choosing) will also continue to limp on, substituting themselves for the working class. They are all irrelevant. 

It's what the working class is doing that matters most. To paraphrase Marx, the point is not what the working class is, or thinks it is, but what it must become. And in this sense, I suppose Marx has a lot in common with anarchism as an idea (rather than as a crappy alternative scene). It's the class that counts, not your weirdo "workers parties" or political scenes.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Surely this neo-Stalinism, as far as it exists in real life, is a feature of the complete failure of the non-Leninist/ anarchist left?


I second LDC , but also I think part of it is a consequence of the extreme and hysterical reaction to Corbyn from the media and political establishment. Stalinism is far enough in history that all information that those kids are getting is second hand, and if your earliest political experience is of a fairly moderate left wing leader getting smeared to an unprecedented extreme by every corner of the establishment, then I think it is natural to suppose maybe something similar is happening with what you're told about Stalin and 20th Century "Actual Exisiting Socialism."

Then you go online and find pro-Stalin counter narratives and latch onto that as "the truth" that they aren't telling you.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I second LDC , but also I think part of it is a consequence of the extreme and hysterical reaction to Corbyn from the media and political establishment. Stalinism is far enough in history that all information that those kids are getting is second hand, and if your earliest political experience is of a fairly moderate left wing leader getting smeared to an unprecedented extreme by every corner of the establishment, then I think it is natural to suppose maybe something similar is happening with what you're told about Stalin and 20th Century "Actual Exisiting Socialism."
> 
> Then you go online and find pro-Stalin counter narratives and latch onto that as "the truth" that they aren't telling you.


If you're looking for someone who was a) on the left and b) beat the fuck out of nazis you might well light on stalin as a relatively attractive figure. Bankrobber in his youth. Beat trotsky. There's things going for him. And if there was dalstroy and collectivisation, the Ukraine famine and the great terror and his undermining of the Spanish anti-fascist forces well he did beat the fuck out of Hitler and got things done


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## hitmouse (Jun 22, 2022)

Yeah, I was going to say, in so far as it's a result of other tendencies' failures, Corbynism seems a lot more relevant - the collapse of that project was going to hold out the prospect of rich pickings for whatever groups can execute the "we're the hardest and most dedicated Corbynites/oh wait, actually we're something completely different and loads better" two-step most effectively, and that seems to have been Socialist Appeal and this lot?


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Again, I wouldn't disagree that what passes for an anarchist scene is a pile of cack. None of this is a failure of anarchism though.



I kind of agree, but does it not raise questions about anarchism if so much of it is easily appropriated/mis-interpreted into the nonsense we see? (Or maybe that's just the same for everything...?)


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I second LDC , but also I think part of it is a consequence of the extreme and hysterical reaction to Corbyn from the media and political establishment. Stalinism is far enough in history that all information that those kids are getting is second hand, and if your earliest political experience is of a fairly moderate left wing leader getting smeared to an unprecedented extreme by every corner of the establishment, then I think it is natural to suppose maybe something similar is happening with what you're told about Stalin and 20th Century "Actual Exisiting Socialism."
> 
> Then you go online and find pro-Stalin counter narratives and latch onto that as "the truth" that they aren't telling you.



Yeah, and I think it shares some similarities with the conspiracy theory/cult types on that level; partly a consequence of a deep seated distrust of authority/government/'mainstream narratives'/etc., very few long term reliable cross-generational projects and groups, and all with a limitless supply of whatever 'facts' you want swirling about on the internet.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, I was going to say, in so far as it's a result of other tendencies' failures, Corbynism seems a lot more relevant - the collapse of that project was going to hold out the prospect of rich pickings for whatever groups can execute the "we're the hardest and most dedicated Corbynites/oh wait, actually we're something completely different and loads better" two-step most effectively, and that seems to have been Socialist Appeal and this lot?



100%. These aren't people who gravitated away from 'anarchism/the non Leninist left'. 

Red London emerged around the height of Corbynism and most of their 'early work' related to defending Jeremy from the reformists with the periphery target audience/enemy those in the labour left, AWL, Socialist Apology etc as well as RMT/TU CPB types.     

I'm assuming R2D2 was bored and thought a bit of trolling would liven the day up...


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## BristolEcho (Jun 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Wait, just to check, is that actually plural? *Anyway, I wonder how their knock-off-black-bloc visual style being heavily influenced by the most performative and spectacular aspects of contemporary anarchism fits in to all this.*


Just curious what this means exactly?


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## Serge Forward (Jun 22, 2022)

LDC said:


> I kind of agree, but does it not raise questions about anarchism if so much of it is easily appropriated/mis-interpreted into the nonsense we see? (Or maybe that's just the same for everything...?)


Yeah, you could say much the same about anything - 'actual existing anarchism' here in the UK: sterotype of alternative types in clown trousers, little in the way of political nous but dead clued up on identity. Unfortunately, anarchism does attract some dicks who seem to jump on board because they like the edgy rebellious word. Fabbri was banging on about this 100 years ago.

Then again, you've got a shit ton of cliches and loons dug in with the assorted Marxists, Leninists, Trotskyists, Maoists, Leftcoms, Impossiblists and many more...


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## ska invita (Jun 22, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> Just curious what this means exactly?


practical anarchism means doing stuff with people to build grassroots power which doesnt generate exciting photos and is often unglamorous time consuming work....... "performative and spectacular " anarchism is doing things that may look "spectacular" on a photo (smashing a window, throwing a smoke bomb) but doesnt achieve much beyond that.


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## LDC (Jun 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> practical anarchism means doing stuff with people to build grassroots power which doesnt generate exciting photos and is often unglamorous time consuming work....... "performative and spectacular " anarchism is doing things that may look "spectacular" on a photo (smashing a window, throwing a smoke bomb) but doesnt achieve much beyond that.



Even less than that, smashing a window and throwing a smoke bomb would be a leap for many of them, it's solely just the imagery of black clothes, masks, and flags on a march that they're copying without any of the militancy that can/often does go alongside it.


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## Rob Ray (Jun 22, 2022)

Gentle reminder re: black blocs and smashy smashy:

a) We all did things as political nippers which in retrospect weren't terribly useful. Hell a lot of us _still_ do things which are of very limited value.
b) Spectacular direct action is often a considerably better recruiter of young people looking for inspiration than older hands bollocking on about "unglamorous and time consuming work" (not that the latter isn't important and worthy of respect). There's a wide world of strategies to get different types of people interested and not all of them involve grim-faced plodding. Speaking practically, I don't much mind where someone gets into the thing – if they're learning and thinking about it that's good.
c) Today's window-breakers are often tomorrow's union activists (or sometimes today's, just with a bit of excess energy and a target to punt it at). That tendency's been with us since the 19th bloody century and the press is going to be plenty negative about them and us regardless of any wishful thinking about what the perfect movement might look like, so give 'em a break eh? Why put off the next Berkman with judgmental negativity before they've learned to temper themselves?

TLDR: Being an old grump can sometimes be as bad as being young and naive.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 22, 2022)

Window smashing can close undesirable businesses for a bit, so not totally worthless.


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## hitmouse (Jun 22, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> Just curious what this means exactly?


What ska and LDC said, pretty much. It's just curious/noticeable to me that, until very recently, pretty much the only people who formed masked blocs on UK demos were anarchists. And I'm sure any well-educated YCLer called on to defend their orthodoxy would probably be able to point out times and places where whichever official CPs have had their own visually distinct presence on demos, but I bet you actual KKE or PCF or whatever blocs don't look much like that.
And just to echo LDC's point, we can argue back and forth about the merits of masking up when it's people preparing for some kind of actual confrontational action, but masking up solely for the visual effect/as a kind of identity marker, which is what seems to be going on here... well, I think it's fair to call that performative.


Rob Ray said:


> Gentle reminder re: black blocs and smashy smashy:
> ...
> 
> TLDR: Being an old grump can sometimes be as bad as being young and naive.


Is this in defence of the YCL red bloc'ers, or just in defence of the people they stole the look from?


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## chilango (Jun 22, 2022)

I just think they're very silly boys.


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## TopCat (Jun 22, 2022)

I thought it was just Tax and his pals. The Stalin thing coming from hanging around with tankies after getting a job on the railways and (has been mentioned) accumulating lots of enemies amongst anarchists and lots more.


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## Rob Ray (Jun 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is this in defence of the YCL red bloc'ers, or just in defence of the people they stole the look from?


Anarchist yoof, though I've no doubt a good chunk of the YCL's current "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh" shouters will grow out of it eventually. The only interest value of the YCL in general for me is gossip, plus a mild concern about their clearly toxic internal culture and the possibility of a dodgy Stalinist cult emerging from the larping, tbh.


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## Flavour (Jun 22, 2022)

Come on guys this is pretty amazing, an openly stalinist sect in London in 2022 made up of people who were born after the ussr collapsed, it is mental and great


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## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2022)

Flavour said:


> Come on guys this is pretty amazing, an openly stalinist sect in London in 2022 made up of people who were born after the ussr collapsed, it is mental and great


And sure all of them would have been sent to kolyma under the great man's rule: but not as camp guards


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## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Anarchist yoof, though I've no doubt a good chunk of the YCL's current "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh" shouters will grow out of it eventually. The only interest value of the YCL in general for me is gossip, plus a mild concern about their clearly toxic internal culture and the possibility of a dodgy Stalinist cult emerging from the larping, tbh.


Mind the giap


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## RD2003 (Jun 22, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 100%. These aren't people who gravitated away from 'anarchism/the non Leninist left'.
> 
> Red London emerged around the height of Corbynism and most of their 'early work' related to defending Jeremy from the reformists with the periphery target audience/enemy those in the labour left, AWL, Socialist Apology etc as well as RMT/TU CPB types.
> 
> I'm assuming R2D2 was bored and thought a bit of trolling would liven the day up...


Wasn't trolling. I meant that the failure to build an alternative to social democracy and Leninism makes the rise of some largely negative trends on the left inevitable. If there was a viable radical left with working class appeal, I doubt if a tiny, but apparently troublesome (for those in the left bubble), current of neo-Stalinism would/could have arisen.

I wasn't even singling out anarchism really, which is why I said non-Leninist/anarchist.

I don't think it's primarily the fault of existing groups or individuals, whether anarchist or anything else. Objective rather than subjective factors are what's important here.


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## RD2003 (Jun 22, 2022)

Flavour said:


> Come on guys this is pretty amazing, an openly stalinist sect in London in 2022 made up of people who were born after the ussr collapsed, it is mental and great


It's all part of this wonderfully diverse (or alternatively, atomised) society that neo-liberal capitalism has gifted us.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Wasn't trolling. I meant that the failure to build an alternative to social democracy and Leninism makes the rise of some largely negative trends on the left inevitable. If there was a viable radical left with working class appeal, I doubt if a tiny, but apparently troublesome (for those in the left bubble), current of neo-Stalinism would/could have arisen.



I agree with that, although you didn’t actually say it in your post that I replied to. A number of disorientations on our side can be understood as arising, to some extent, because of the absence of effective pro working class politics with working class leadership.


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## RD2003 (Jun 22, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I agree with that, although you didn’t actually say it in your post that I replied to. A number of disorientations on our side can be understood as arising, to some extent, because of the absence of effective pro working class politics with working class leadership.


Yes. I think we have seen over the past 30 years or more, however, that in the absence of the neccesary conditions, individual/ small group effort can only take us so far.

My reluctant conclusion (and I readily concede that it is not original and that I may be wrong, and obviously hope I am) is that the destruction of mass industry and the communities that grew up around it, has taken away the conditions for a mass militant radical left movement. Inequality continues to grow, and exploitation is rife, but working class solidarity, with notable and fleeting exceptions, flounders, and the politically aware take refuge in the dead-end of identity politics (thus alienating vast swathes of the most exploited) and useless obsessing over whether or not the EU provided some sort of compensation.

And that leaves aside the fact that when anarchism and socialism etc were first conceived, nobody could have foreseen either the internet, or the mass media penetration of people's heads


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## Rimbaud (Jun 22, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> My reluctant conclusion (and I readily concede that it is not original and that I may be wrong, and actually hope I am) is that the destruction of mass industry and the communities that grew up around it, has taken away the conditions for a mass militant radical left movement.



I've thought this too, and I think you have a point.

But actually some of the conditions are arguably coming back - Amazon distribution centres are well suited for unionisation for instance. There is a slow but steady progress towards unionisation in newer industries, e.g. some major companies in the gaming industry have unionised recently. I have some hope that the current situation with inflation might give impetus to more unionisation.


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## xenon (Jun 23, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Anarchism will probably continue to exist as a little sub-culture as long as society does, but the working class will remain oblivious.
> 
> This is a nailed-on guarantee.



What about where working class groups, communities self organise, ignore the law, / confront law enforcement, in order to resist actions like evictions, destruction of community assets, or just to help each other out? Are these not anarchist in nature? not many people would describe themselves as anarchist but you see what i mean.

As for Stalinism in 2022 UK. Surely it's just like sad cosplay for particularly irrelevant lefty misfits.


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 23, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Then again, you've got a shit ton of cliches and loons dug in with the assorted Marxists, Leninists, Trotskyists, Maoists, Leftcoms, Impossiblists and many more...


Whereas everyone involved in liberalism, social democracy, conservatism, religion, sports clubs, and neighbourhood watch is completely decent and sane.


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## Brainaddict (Jun 23, 2022)

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about a handful of edgelord young Stalinists. What bothers me more is that when people I knew started to rehabilitate the word 'communism' they were mostly advocating a libertarian version of it. Now shitloads of people on social media seem to self-identify as communists, but their use of the hammer and sickle and defence of certain communist regimes suggests they're just trying to rehabilitate good old soviet-style communism (just not the excesses of Stalinism). I never thought it worth trying to rehabilitate 'communism' tbh, given the trauma that so many people had suffered under that name. Given its associations (it was spread mostly by the influence of the USSR as far as I can tell) I _really_ can't see the worth in trying to rehabilitate the hammer and sickle but here we are in 2022....


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## hitmouse (Jun 23, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Anyway, perhaps this is a petty point to make, but on visiting the RMT pickets today, saw people out from at least two trot sects, people down from PCS and UCU... did not see any identifiable members of the Ho Chi Minh-Che Guevara-Stalin brigade.


I reluctantly have to withdraw my snarkiness on this point, I think there were a few Stalinists out down at the rail picket today who seemed to be very well-behaved.


Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I'm not too concerned about a handful of edgelord young Stalinists. What bothers me more is that when people I knew started to rehabilitate the word 'communism' they were mostly advocating a libertarian version of it. Now shitloads of people on social media seem to self-identify as communists, but their use of the hammer and sickle and defence of certain communist regimes suggests they're just trying to rehabilitate good old soviet-style communism (just not the excesses of Stalinism). I never thought it worth trying to rehabilitate 'communism' tbh, given the trauma that so many people had suffered under that name. Given its associations (it was spread mostly by the influence of the USSR as far as I can tell) I _really_ can't see the worth in trying to rehabilitate the hammer and sickle but here we are in 2022....


I do wonder whether any of these people have tried organising in... any of the many British working-class areas where there's a high concentration of Polish and other ex-Eastern Bloc migrants, and what reaction they get if so.


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## ska invita (Jun 23, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I do wonder whether any of these people have tried organising in... any of the many British working-class areas where there's a high concentration of Polish and other ex-Eastern Bloc migrants, and what reaction they get if so.


id pay to see that


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## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I reluctantly have to withdraw my snarkiness on this point, I think there were a few Stalinists out down at the rail picket today who seemed to be very well-behaved.
> 
> I do wonder whether any of these people have tried organising in... any of the many British working-class areas where there's a high concentration of Polish and other ex-Eastern Bloc migrants, and what reaction they get if so.


The CPGB , admittedly before the walls kept a tumbling down , did in in the coal and steel industries where there were Ukrainians, Lithuanians etc post war .


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## RD2003 (Jun 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The CPGB , admittedly before the walls kept a tumbling down , did in in the coal and steel industries where there were Ukrainians, Lithuanians etc post war .


I worked in some right shitty factory jobs when I was 16-26. In the worst of these, a number of my fellow semi-skilled machine operators were older Ukrainians and Poles from the WW2 generation. They were reactionary and racist, although not openly racist towards the black and Asian workers they worked alongside, funnily enough... A number of shop stewards in the factory were CP. There was no problem with the east Europeans as long as the stewards were seen to be defending all our interests.

Other stewards were 'Enoch was right' types (despite voting Labour.) Often, they were more militant on workplace issues than the CPers.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I worked in some right shitty factory jobs when I was 16-26. In the worst of these, a number of my fellow semi-skilled machine operators were older Ukrainians and Poles from the WW2 generation. They were reactionary and racist, although not openly racist towards the black and Asian workers they worked alongside, funnily enough... A number of shop stewards in the factory were CP. There was no problem with the east Europeans as long as they were seen to be defending all our interests.
> 
> Other stewards were 'Enoch was right' types (despite voting Labour.) Often, they were more militant on workplace issues than the CPers.


Yeh we all know that quote about the party being to the left of the cc and the people bring to the left of the party


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## RD2003 (Jun 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh we all know that quote about the party being to the left of the cc and the people bring to the left of the party


It was true though. And a useful lesson for a young, know-it-all-but-really-know-nothing cunt like me.

Although being militant on workplace issues doesn't necessarily mean you're on the left. The racist but militant shop stewards were definitely not on the left generally.

It was a reminder, as from school days, that there are plenty of affable racists around.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> It was true though. And a useful lesson for a young, know-it-all-but-really-know-nothing cunt like me.
> 
> Although being militant on workplace issues doesn't necessarily mean you're on the left. The racist but militant shop stewards were definitely not on the left generally.
> 
> It was a reminder, as from school days, that there are plenty of affable racists around.


Clearly and against a fuckton of evidence you don't think it's possible to be on the left and a racist. Let me present as exhibit 1 Joseph vissarionovich stalin


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## RD2003 (Jun 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Clearly and against a fuckton of evidence you don't think it's possible to be on the left and a racist


Stop looking for an argument for the sake of it.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Stop looking for an argument for the sake of it.


Arguments for the sake if it are our meat and drink, maybe you're on the wrong forum with an attitude like that


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## RD2003 (Jun 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Arguments for the sake if it are our meat and drink, maybe you're on the wrong forum with an attitude like that


You are right. And I, along with you, have sometimes been one of the worst offenders, even if I don't have your stamina.

But lets not derail a often interesting thread by, yet again, writing about each other.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 23, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I worked in some right shitty factory jobs when I was 16-26. In the worst of these, a number of my fellow semi-skilled machine operators were older Ukrainians and Poles from the WW2 generation. They were reactionary and racist, although not openly racist towards the black and Asian workers they worked alongside, funnily enough... A number of shop stewards in the factory were CP. There was no problem with the east Europeans as long as the stewards were seen to be defending all our interests.
> 
> Other stewards were 'Enoch was right' types (despite voting Labour.) Often, they were more militant on workplace issues than the CPers.



The first place I worked in after school was similar. Plus there was an informal racist segregation by grade

: skilled: white
: semi skilled: white and black
: unskilled: Asian

Skillled were AEU, semi skilled T&G and the unskilled GMBATU. The CP stewards there not only participated in the system but, in the main, _valued _it as as way of controlling the shopfloor
and imposing their control over it.

Bill Morris had been a steward 1/2 mile down the road and was just about to become T&G General Secretary. I remember - being a naive Militant supporter who was horrified at the participation of ‘comrades’ in the system and their causal racism  - Morris being praised by the CP senior steward in my section as he’d understood his role was to represent the black workers only at the factory, again with the tacit approval of the CP stewards there.


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## RD2003 (Jun 23, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The first place I worked in after school was similar. Plus there was an informal racist segregation by grade
> 
> : skilled: white
> : semi skilled: white and black
> ...


In that job I mentioned, I was in a Bakelite moulding shop working on ancient heavy machinery, the dirtiest and worst regarded job in the whole place. That's where the black, Asian and older east European workers were concentrated (there were virtually no young east Europeans in the UK at the time for obvious reasons.) 

The most skilled apprentices ended up joining older skilled engineers in making machine tools for the rest of the factory. They were, while I was there, all white with one exception. They ruled the shop stewards committee. All stewards, whether CP, Labour, apolitical, non-aligned, or anything else, pandered to their perceived interests. Nearly all the CP stewards were themselves skilled engineers. Everybody else was permanently fucked off to the extent that many regarded being in the union as pointless. 

The skilled and some of the semi-skilled were AEU/AUEW. In the moulding shop we had to join some obscure outfit called the National Society of Metal Mechanics (iirc), even though we didn't work with metal. Easily overruled on the stewards' committee, including by the CPers, who had little interest in the most exploited workers despite their lip-service (they could run rings round everybody, including those who wanted to push them into greater militancy.)

By the mid-late 1980s, the company had started killing the union off by employing hundreds of temporary workers on six-month renewable contracts. Obviously, most of these were never going to join a union.


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 24, 2022)

The best worksite convenor I worked with recently is an electrical engineer freemason who calls talk radio when he's on his nightshift with all sorts of mad socially conservative ideas. On the job he's an excellent leader in an entirely male but multi ethnic workplace.


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## tim (Jun 24, 2022)

8ball said:


> I thought the left equivalent was “sound”, (though it really means the opposite).  I confess I may have been out of the loop for long enough for this to be no longer the case.
> 
> “Sound” is (or at least was), also used by fundamentalist religious groups as it happens, but I expect a lot of the left is far enough removed from such groups to be unaware of this.


I don't think they're that far removed and I'm sure people who want to be led and given something easy to believe move from one to the other.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 29, 2022)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I'm not too concerned about a handful of edgelord young Stalinists. What bothers me more is that when people I knew started to rehabilitate the word 'communism' they were mostly advocating a libertarian version of it. Now shitloads of people on social media seem to self-identify as communists, but their use of the hammer and sickle and defence of certain communist regimes suggests they're just trying to rehabilitate good old soviet-style communism (just not the excesses of Stalinism). I never thought it worth trying to rehabilitate 'communism' tbh, given the trauma that so many people had suffered under that name. Given its associations (it was spread mostly by the influence of the USSR as far as I can tell) I _really_ can't see the worth in trying to rehabilitate the hammer and sickle but here we are in 2022....



Marxism-Leninism is enjoying something of a resurgence among American youth too.  I will admit it has been hilarious seeing some of them hound and take the piss out of your arrogant and whiny petty landlords on soc media ('You're gonna get fucking Mao'd' etc).

How much of it is middle class cosplaying, or genuinely seeking alternatives by reaching back to and for the experience of something that once existed and however flawed and downright horrific in some times and places at least presented the possibility of a world beyond capitalism. I don't believe the Stalinists achieved that transformation but I believe that they believed they had done such a thing.


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