# Workers Power have split



## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Not really arsed but I thought I'd put this up to give me something to do.




			
				Simon Hardy said:
			
		

> I along with a number of other members of Workers Power in Britain, Austria and the Czech Republic have resigned from the organisation. The global capitalist crisis has posed tremendous questions for the radical left about how to go forward. We have increasingly drawn the conclusion that the historical legacy of the post-war left, in particular the Leninist-Trotskyist left, needs to be subjected to far-reaching critique and re-evaluation in light of the contemporary challenges.
> 
> The organised left is dogged by sectarianism and opportunism. There there are quite literally hundreds of competing orthodoxies, with each sect promoting and defending its own, typically very narrow, conception of revolutionary theory and practice without subjecting their ideas to the critical re-evaluation which we believe is necessary if Marxism is to reach out to far wider layers.
> 
> ...


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

The working class is fucked!!


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The working class is fucked!!


 
It's a sad day for the international proletariat...


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

blue skies discussion lol, i see workers' power have been struck by the curse of management twatspeak


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

A reply from Richard Brenner




> I have been asked by Workers Power and the League for the Fifth International to draft a short response to the message from Simon Hardy explaining that he, and 15 others, have decided to leave our organisation.
> 
> We regret their decision, as they are all talented people, many of whom played an important role in the student movement in 2010-11.  While we recognise that there has been a significant divergence in our views over the last seven months, we had hoped that the debate we conducted at our national conference last month and our International Council meeting at Easter could have continued within our ranks. We were disappointed that the comrades chose to leave after such a short discussion.
> 
> ...


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## imposs1904 (Apr 15, 2012)

What does Paul Mason say? Will he doing a report on this for Newsnight?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

> our belief that to make that happen, a strong Leninist and Trotskyist grouping, organised around a clear revolutionary programme, principles and method, remains essential.


 
[/quote]

 Fucks sake.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

So basically they're saying that trot groups split because they're too narrowly focused and therefore end up disgreeing with eachother, and those splits are a disaster to the working class.

So in trying to remedy this situation they've ended up disagreeing with the rest of their microsect, which has led to a split.

Brilliant!


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> So basically they're saying that trot groups split because they're too narrowly focused and therefore end up disgreeing with eachother, and those splits are a disaster to the working class.
> 
> So in trying to remedy this situation they've ended up disagreeing with the rest of their microsect, which has led to a split.
> 
> Brilliant!


...and further to that WP are going to go to the meeting the micro-sect split have set up, in order to work towards setting up a new revolutionary organisation with the people who they (and the split) decided that they cannot work with in the same organisation ...


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

It's beyond a fucking joke I mean what the fuck are they playing at?

I was halfway through writing something, I know butchers is keen to see it, where I collectively list every single socialist organization in britain. From the IBT to the CPGB-ML and so on and so on. Just so I could see how many people were in them all. I didn't get through it because it's such a soul-crushing experience that I couldn't bring myself to finish it off. However, I can say with a degree of certaintly, there are well over 10,000 people in this country who are members of a left-wing sect or group, when you add them all together. And for those 10,000 people, there are literally dozens and dozens of parties. I keep coming accross new ones every time I look. It's beyond a joke.


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## Kidda (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> ...and further to that WP are going to go to the meeting the micro-sect split have set up, in order to work towards setting up a new revolutionary organisation with the people who they (and the split) decided that they cannot work with in the same organisation ...


 
Massive LOL's


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's beyond a fucking joke I mean what the fuck are they playing at?
> 
> I was halfway through writing something, I know butchers is keen to see it, where I collectively list every single socialist organization in britain. From the IBT to the CPGB-ML and so on and so on. Just so I could see how many people were in them all. I didn't get through it because it's such a soul-crushing experience that I couldn't bring myself to finish it off. However, I can say with a degree of certaintly, there are well over 10,000 people in this country who are members of a left-wing sect or group, when you add them all together. And for those 10,000 people, there are literally dozens and dozens of parties. I keep coming accross new ones every time I look. It's beyond a joke.


 
I think a kind of trot family tree would be useful, so we can trace back the origins of the various groups. Plus I'm fucking convinced incest was required to bring the AWL into this world!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's beyond a fucking joke I mean what the fuck are they playing at?
> 
> I was halfway through writing something, I know butchers is keen to see it, where I collectively list every single socialist organization in britain. From the IBT to the CPGB-ML and so on and so on.


 
You're a fucking lunatic, get a life!


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## CyberRose (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> And for those 10,000 people, there are literally dozens and dozens of parties.


Potentially 10,000 parties


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Potentially 10,000 parties


 
I sometimes think we'd get more cooperation if that was the case


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

there was a trot-tree that ernesto (i think) posted up ages ago but it's probably well out of date now.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think a kind of trot family tree would be useful, so we can trace back the origins of the various groups. Plus I'm fucking convinced incest was required to bring the AWL into this world!


 
Well I thought about doing it like that, except that it really would take me forever ( I didn't realise at the time just how seriously fucked up Trot politics has been historically) and I haven't got the heart for reading through the minutea of details as to why they split. Some of the reasons are beyond sectarian politics, just a pathological desire on behalf of certain individuals to be on a revolutionary committee of some sort, even if it means the party in question being totally impotent.

I settled on doing something based on _The Club_ which was Gerry Healy's entryist group into the Labour party, as pretty much all the trot parties that we know today have their roots in _The Club_, or more specifically which point Gerry Healy purged them from it. All that can be said is that at one brief point in late 1949 and early 1950 all the celebrities of the british hard left where in one organization, Tony Cliff, Brian Deane, Ted Grant, Gerry Healy etc, and today they are not. But I never got round to it.

It's like waiting for the alignment of the planets or something. Every hundred thousands years they all line up in the way, then inexorably drift apart.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

what about the rather mental american trots such as the sparts, or the posadists lol? I thought the origins of most of the groups we see today was with James Cannon etc ...


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

The more sensible option is just to ask on here, we can answer any question


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Oh god I've met some Posadists. Don't start me on them I was obsessed with them until recently.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

weknowanysect.com


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Oh god I've met some Posadists. Don't start me on them I was obsessed with them until recently.


 
The posadists are awesome. I hope they are still going.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I settled on doing something based on _The Club_ which was Gerry Healy's entryist group into the Labour party, a*s pretty much all the trot parties that we know today have their roots in The Club*, or more specifically which point Gerry Healy purged them from it. A


 
Their roots pre-date The Club. They date back to the original RCP - 44 to 49 - which is, to the best of my knowledge, the only time there has been a unified Trotskyist party in Britain.

*eta: *My 2000th post on Urban 75 and it's on a Workers Power thread.*  *


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> what about the rather mental american trots such as the sparts, or the posadists lol? I thought the origins of most of the groups we see today was with James Cannon etc ...


 
North West Labour Party Conference 2009 me and friend, who's still an LP member and was at the time running for some committee post, went along. There was some women outside with a newspaper, very much in a trot stylee, and they were the posadists. Had a little chat, seemed reasonable enough, certainly no weirder than Socialist Action or whatever. Then I do some research and find out about the Posadists and oh my god, what a mad group! The workers bomb is pretty much the best bit of ultra-leftism I've ever encountered.

And yes most trots today are Cannonites in the style of the American-SWP with the exception of the SWP who were revisionists. This is the origins of the State Capitalism vs Deformed Workers State business which seems to matter so much to these people.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

That's fucking awesome, I didn't know they had a paper. Oh my god I so want to read it.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> Their roots pre-date The Club. They date back to the original RCP - 44 to 49 - which is, to the best of my knowledge, the only time there has been a unified Trotskyist party in Britain.
> 
> *eta: *My 2000th post on Urban 75 and it's on a Workers Power thread.*  *


 
yeah the RCP but there was a split within that as well, so that when they were putting together the 4th International there had to be two distinct representatives from Britain to acknowledge this split.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm told that Dave Douglas, of miners' strike fame, was a Posadist in his youth and used to introduce himself as such whenever he spoke at Labour Party Young Socialists meetings.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Oh god I've met some Posadists. Don't start me on them I was obsessed with them until recently.


when you say you were obsessed with them, do you mean you were stalking them and that?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm told that Dave Douglas, of miners' strike fame, was a Posadist in his youth and used to introduce himself as such whenever he spoke at Labour Party Young Socialists meetings.


douglass. dave douglass.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> That's fucking awesome, I didn't know they had a paper. Oh my god I so want to read it.


 
I think it was called Red Flag, I'm so pissed off I never bought one. I try to get one paper from every trot group going, so I can have a collection of pitiful sectarian trot memorabelia to read when I'm in my dotage. According to Prof Jim Callaghan, an expert in Labour movement history, the Posadists in the UK had "around a dozen members" in the early 90's so I'm glad to see membership remaining resilient.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> North West Labour Party Conference 2009 me and friend, who's still an LP member and was at the time running for some committee post, went along. There was some women outside with a newspaper, very much in a trot stylee, and they were the posadists. Had a little chat, seemed reasonable enough, certainly no weirder than Socialist Action or whatever. Then I do some research and find out about the Posadists and oh my god, what a mad group! The workers bomb is pretty much the best bit of ultra-leftism I've ever encountered.
> 
> And yes most trots today are Cannonites in the style of the American-SWP with the exception of the SWP who were revisionists. This is the origins of the State Capitalism vs Deformed Workers State business which seems to matter so much to these people.


 
I personally think that the alien communists thing is even better than the workers bomb. And their theory of the workers bomb is not to be confused with the tanky version. My grandad was a tanky and for him the workers bomb was about the workers state defending itself from capitalist imperialism (the arguments he had with my mum when she joined the CND were hilarious!) whereas for the Posadists wasn't it about wiping out most of the population so that the resources remaining would be super-abundant and so communism would be inevitable?


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## imposs1904 (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> yeah the RCP but there was a split within that as well, so that when they were putting together the 4th International there had to be two distinct representatives from Britain to acknowledge this split.


 
The 4th International pre-dates the RCP. I understand it was the 4th International which instructed the Trotskyist groups to fuse, to form the RCP in '44. My memory of this is not what it was. It's been years since I read Bornstein and Richardson's two volumed history about those years.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> douglass. dave douglass.


 
ssorry.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> ssorry.


not me you should be apologising to


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## treelover (Apr 15, 2012)

we have the SWP, WP, France has Melchion...


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> The 4th International pre-dates the RCP. I understand it was the 4th International which instructed the Trotskyist groups to fuse, to form the RCP in '44. My memory of this is not what it was. It's been years since I read Bornstein and Richardson's two volumed history about those years.


 
And before this there was the Marxist league, and before that the Communist League and before that the Balham group and before that (sort of anyway) The Marxian League.


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## treelover (Apr 15, 2012)

The biggest disaster imo, was the intertia after the amazing 26 March mass demo...


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I personally think that the alien communists thing is even better than the workers bomb. And their theory of the workers bomb is not to be confused with the tanky version. My grandad was a tanky and for him the workers bomb was about the workers state defending itself from capitalist imperialism (the arguments he had with my mum when she joined the CND were hilarious!) whereas for the Posadists wasn't it about wiping out most of the population so that the resources remaining would be super-abundant and so communism would be inevitable?


 
Well there's some of them that claim the "alien communist" stuff was exaggerated by CIA agents operating in Columbia in order to discredit them, same goes for the stuff about communicating with dolphins.

I must admit that I do like the idea of the TUC getting hold of nuclear weapons then calling a general strike and threatening to use them. There's something about this apocalyptic communism that appeals to me, maybe I've just getting misanthropic and cynical with age.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

you have a paper from every trot group?  your house must be full of them


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## barney_pig (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> The posadists are awesome. I hope they are still going.


There was a posadist who used to come to socialist alliance meetings in Reading. Nice quiet chap. Foreign.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> The 4th International pre-dates the RCP. I understand it was the 4th International which instructed the Trotskyist groups to fuse, to form the RCP in '44. My memory of this is not what it was. It's been years since I read Bornstein and Richardson's two volumed history about those years.


 
I think you might be right there, but the "split" in the organization still existed post-1944, there was a Healy group and the group around Brian Deane and Ted Grant which would disagree over whether or not to join Labour. It's part of the reason why the The Club failed.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

That family tree isn't just outdated, it's also wrong in a few minor ways. It also seems to suggest that the Posadists were a split from Militant!

By the way there's an archive of Posadist material online, including loads of British stuff. It's mental in an extremely boring way, which is unfortunate. Most of their paper seems to consist of very long, very tedious reprints of speeches by Posadas himself. There's hardly anything about building socialism amidst the glowing radioactive rubble of Old New York:

http://quatrieme-internationale-pos...d=11:red-flag-great-britain&Itemid=21&lang=en


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

treelover said:


> The biggest disaster imo, was the intertia after the amazing 26 March mass demo...


so you don't think inertia after 15/02/03 or 20/10/90 might have had anything to do with it?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That family tree isn't just outdated, it's also wrong in a few minor ways. It also seems to suggest that the Posadists were a split from Militant!
> 
> By the way there's an archive of Posadist material online, including loads of British stuff. It's mental in an extremely boring way, which is unfortunate. Most of their paper seems to consist of very long, very tedious reprints of speeches by Posadas himself. There's hardly anything about building socialism amidst the glowing radioactive rubble of Old New York:
> 
> http://quatrieme-internationale-posadiste.org/QIP/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=category&id=11:red-flag-great-britain&Itemid=21&lang=en


 
I remember reading those and for a while I was so infatuated with them I used to sign my emails with "Long Live Posadas" at the end.

I know I need to get a life.


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## editor (Apr 15, 2012)




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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

The only thing sadder than the alphabet spaghetti of various left groups, from anarchist, to trotskyist, to stalinists etc (there could be over 100 in the UK alone), are those who pretend they aren't interested but take delight in all this kind of rubbish. I very much doubt there are even 10,000 people in all these groups put together. But they are virtually all the same and swimming around in an ever dwindling pool. The bigger groups such as the SWP and Socialist Party take pleasure that they are bigger than the Revolutionary Marxist Democratic Workers Communist Proletarian Internationalist Committee for Committee Group, but in reality they are all becoming ever more irrelevant and obscure. Personally I still very much believe in socialist and marxist ideas and it's a shame the shower we have now are what represent those ideas making it all a bit of a joke. You only have to look at the anti-cuts movement where we had three national anti-cuts organisations, with almost identical politics, all controlled by tiny left groups behind the scenes. At a local level various left groups did far more damage than good in trying to control and brand local groups and now we are in the situation where the anti-cuts movement is in a dire state. You had Right to Work, Coalition of the Resitance and the brilliantly named National Shop Stewards Committee All-Britain Anti Cuts Federation. If there had been one national federation and groups had worked together in a constructive way I am convinced we would have a far, far stronger anti-cuts movement than we have now. Instead we have three dwindling national anti-cuts groups, but heh ho, at least they have the correct position on some minor political position that no-one gives a shit about. The government must be laughing their heads off.

And in the trade unions the left groups go on and on with their mantra of rank and file, but never do anything practical to make it happen, instead just trying to flog their paper or promote their latest front organisation. In UNISON, my union, we have the useless UNISON United Left (probably not more than a couple of hundred members in the whole country), run by the SWP, and then other groups such as the Socialist Party not bothering to try and set up a grass roots network at all. All the time we are getting shafted by the bureaucracy in the union who go hand in hand with the TUC and government. It's a sad state of affairs. We even had two left candidates against Dave Prentis at the last general secretary election, you really couldn't make it up. I forget what the political difference was between them that made it so crucial that they both stand, I think it was  difference how many cans of beans were sold by a support group in the General Strike of 1926.


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That family tree isn't just outdated, it's also wrong in a few minor ways. It also seems to suggest that the Posadists were a split from Militant!


 
The British section _were_ a split from the then RSL.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

oh my god, what if they're right


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Editor that sketch doesn't even get close to it. It's way worse than that. Way worse.


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Workers Bomb is the best. 

Spartacist League are my all time favourites. First time I saw them they had a stall with placards on the front. One read: 'age of conception is a capitalist concept'; the other: 'the Dalai Lama is a capitalist stooge'.

Mad trot sects also seem to require a mad moustache as a prerequisite for getting membership.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Workers Bomb is the best.
> 
> Spartacist League are my all time favourites. First time I saw them they had a stall with placards on the front. One read: 'age of conception is a capitalist concept'; the other: 'the Dalai Lama is a capitalist stooge'.
> 
> Mad trot sects also seem to require a mad moustache as a prerequisite for getting membership.


 
Oh my god i have seen the sparts when they "intervened" at a session in socialism 2010. I don't like them because they acted like real cunts, basically accusing someone of being a fascist when he'd just been describing some truly horrific events that he'd seen in India.


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## chilango (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> there was a trot-tree that ernesto (i think) posted up ages ago but it's probably well out of date now.



Me and a couple of mates wrote a " book" listing every lefty group in Britain back in the 90s. Neprimerye deleted the master copy after a night in the pub though. It got turned into a top trumps game which was way better...


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

I've never heard of this Posadas fella until now!


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Workers Bomb is the best.
> 
> Spartacist League are my all time favourites. First time I saw them they had a stall with placards on the front. One read: 'age of conception is a capitalist concept'; the other: 'the Dalai Lama is a capitalist stooge'.
> 
> Mad trot sects also seem to require a mad moustache as a prerequisite for getting membership.


 
Remember the guy from the IBT who used to shave his head so he looked like Lenin? Not all his head, just the middle bit.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The British section _were_ a split from the then RSL.


 
Really? Holy shit! I wonder if there were internal documents produced? If so, I must get someone to dig them out.

Internationally they were a split from the ISFI.


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Oh my god i have seen the sparts when they "intervened" at a session in socialism 2010. I don't like them because they acted like real cunts, basically accusing someone of being a fascist when he'd just been describing some truly horrific events that he'd seen in India.


 
First time I saw them was Socialism 2008. Mad bastards


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've never heard of this Posadas fella until now!


 
Bullshit you never heard about it 'til know!!


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## Roadkill (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> And before this there was the Marxist league, and before that the Communist League and before that the Balham group and before that (sort of anyway) The Marxian League.


 
Blimey.  The last time I saw a chart similar to that was when I was a student swappie, poring over Stalinicos's primer on Trotskyism.  It really is remarkable, especially when you remember that the membership of every single one of those groups combined would probably fit into one decent-sized football stadium!


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Remember the guy from the IBT who used to shave his head so he looked like Lenin? Not all his head, just the middle bit.


 
He was ace. The IBT looked like a more respectable Sparts


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've never heard of this Posadas fella until now!


 
You've been missing out.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> douglass. dave douglass.


 
And Dave (who is a hero) is still proud of his former Posadism


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Bullshit you never heard about it 'til know!!


 
I swear! I don't know how I've missed out on that one!

Just spotted Workers Fight on that chart (the 1970s one). I've got some original copies of its earliest literature.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> First time I saw them was Socialism 2008. Mad bastards


 
They were proper cunts on this occasion though. That put me off them. Apparently they have also (allegedly) used brainwashing and sleep-deprivation techniques on new recruits as well.


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Blimey. The last time I saw a chart similar to that was when I was a student swappie, poring over Stalinicos's primer on Trotskyism. It really is remarkable, especially when you remember that the membership of every single one of those groups combined would probably fit into one decent-sized football stadium!


That's from a very poor Big Flame pamphlet called The Revolution Unfinished? A Critique of Trotskyism from 1977.


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

What's the best name of a British leftist organisation to date? 

A lot of people like Socialist Workers Party.


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> They were proper cunts on this occasion though. That put me off them. Apparently they have also (allegedly) used brainwashing and sleep-deprivation techniques on new recruits as well.


 
That's what put you off them! I thought they had some weird hand gesture where you make a 'W' with both hands for '*W*orkers Bomb'


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeah. Proper cunts mate, this guy had goe to India and Sri Lanka, and was describing some truly terrible stuff, villagers shot by militias working on behalf of a large company, being expelled from land, people dragged from hospital beds and shot, people having their hands cut off for being on strike etc. And then some sparts stand up and accuse him, basically, of being fash, and agreeing with what he was criticising.

To be honest prior to seeing them in action I had thought they were a joke made up by private eye.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> What's the best name of a British leftist organisation to date?


 
It's a two way fight between the "Liaison Committee of Militants for a Revolutionary Communist International" and the "British Section of the Workers International to Rebuild the Fourth International". Nobody else is even in the running.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I swear! I don't know how I've missed out on that one!


 
I'm telling ya it was a running joke between me and a mutual friend of ours for a good 12 months, you must've heard us all drunken shouting about The Workers Bomb whilst crying Long Live Posadas lol


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm telling ya it was a running joke between me and a mutual friend of ours for a good 12 months, you must've heard us all drunken shouting about The Workers Bomb whilst crying Long Live Posadas lol


 
Yes I remember Workers Bomb but not the other chap.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> And before this there was the Marxist league, and before that the Communist League and before that the Balham group and before that (sort of anyway) The Marxian League.


 
That's exactly what I was on about with the family tree - desperately needs bringing up to date.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 15, 2012)

Not even the famous Working People's Party of England - May '73?


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

treelover said:


> The biggest disaster imo, was the intertia after the amazing 26 March mass demo...


 
That pales into insignificance when compared to a split in the mighty workers' power though.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> That's what put you off them! I thought they had some weird hand gesture where you make a 'W' with both hands for '*W*orkers Bomb'


 
What the fuck?

I also heard that the rank and file sparts are not allowed on the internet. Is that true?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> I also heard that the rank and file sparts are not allowed on the internet. Is that true?


 
I hope it is! I burst out laughing when I read that


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

The irony of this thread is that I suspect that a lot of the posters are in far left sects themselves.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> I also heard that the rank and file sparts are not allowed on the internet. Is that true?


 
That was basically the case for working class SWP members as well.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> The irony of this thread is that I suspect that a lot of the posters are in far left sects themselves.


 
Name and shame then?


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> The irony of this thread is that I suspect that a lot of the posters are in far left sects themselves.


 
Not I! 

I think a lot of grounded people in left wing sects know they're in sects. Doesn't really matter does it.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> That was basically the case for working class SWP members as well.


 
wtf really?


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## Roadkill (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> wtf really?


 
Not when I was in it, in the late 90s.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Not when I was in it, in the late 90s.


I never you'd been in the swp roadkill.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Not I!
> 
> I think a lot of grounded people in left wing sects know they're in sects. Doesn't really matter does it.


 
This is it, everyone knows what these groups are like, only the very naive and the very needy go in there believing them to be the solution to the problems of capitalism. My attitude is there's a desprate need for a new left-wing mass party in this country, one that's not part of the Leninist canon, and if that's gonna happen the rank and file members of these organizations are the ones who'll need to take the initiative on that. The leadership won't.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> That was basically the case for working class SWP members as well.


 
Seriously? I wasn't in the SWP all that long but nobody ever said anything to me about not going on the net.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Not when I was in it, in the late 90s.


 
Solidarnosc who used to post on here got told off because of it, yeah technically it wasn't a class thing but generally those members bot allowed were working class in pratctice


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

In 1995 they banned participation by members in a particular list offering amongst other reasons the fact that they had not asked the CC if it was ok first.


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Solidarnosc who used to post on here got told off because of it, yeah technically it wasn't a class thing but generally those members bot allowed were working class in pratctice


He would've been about 10 at the time!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Seriously? I wasn't in the SWP all that long but nobody ever said anything to me about not going on the net.


 
In 2000 - 2002 I remember them telling people not to get involeved


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> That was basically the case for working class SWP members as well.


 
Not quite. SWP members were forbidden from participating in a particular internet discussion forum at some point in the mid 1990s. They weren't forbidden from being on the internet!

They do have something of a cultural opposition to internet forums though. It's not a rule, but their members rarely participate in online discussion outside of their house blog Lenin's Tomb.

(edited to add, beaten to it by butchersapron).


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> He would've been about 10 at the time!


 
nah not in 2001/2 he was in his late teens


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Not quite. SWP members were forbidden from participating in a particular internet discussion forum at some point in the mid 1990s. They weren't forbidden from being on the internet!
> 
> They do have something of a cultural opposition to internet forums though. It's not a rule, but their members rarely participate in online discussion outside of their house blog Lenin's Tomb.


it's like a sepulchre in there


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> In 1995 they banned participation by members in a particular list offering amongst other reasons the fact that they had not asked the CC if it was ok first.


 
Fucking hell they're total control freaks aren't they.

Even by the standards of left-wing sects they're fucking nuts.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Not quite. SWP members were forbidden from participating in a particular internet discussion forum at some point in the mid 1990s. They weren't forbidden from being on the internet!
> 
> They do have something of a cultural opposition to internet forums though. It's not a rule, but their members rarely participate in online discussion outside of their house blog Lenin's Tomb.


 
ok I will go with this, it just seemed like it


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm basically in my "sect" because I'm more effective in there than I would be if I wasn't and all the campaigning work we do is for causes I believe in. If any of that changed I'd leave.

I suspect this is the case for most sensible people in far left groups. Apart from the "wevolution's wound the corner" young students you get a lot of, especially in the SWP, and the more dogmatic party hacks, I don't think anyone really believes they're always 100% correct on everything or that they're objectively the only true leaders of the working class or anything like that.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

there are plenty of swp members on revleft, they tend to be the saner ones there!


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> Name and shame then?


 
Well I'm pretty sure there are a few Socialist Party members on this thread for a start. I suspected SWP as well, but maybe not given what's said above.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> there are plenty of swp members on revleft, they tend to be the saner ones there!


 
Revleft is a fucking madhouse. It seems to consist entirely of teenage internet Hoxhaists and the occasional random SWP member. It's a bit odd that they choose Revleft of all places to post.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Well I'm pretty sure there are a few Socialist Party members on this thread for a start. I suspected SWP as well, but maybe not given what's said above.


 
So what? The far left can be a pretty absurd place. Having a bit of a sense of humour about it isn't a bad thing, you know.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

oh god i caused a massive arguement on revleft on a thread called "Are meat workers counter revolutionary"?  There was also another arguement where someone in an irish republican group who had been tortured or something and some of the people on there were going on about how to oppose it was "supporting nationalism" or some shit


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

My "the working class are superior in every imaginable way" thread went down rather well on there I thought


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> The only thing sadder than the alphabet spaghetti of various left groups, from anarchist, to trotskyist, to stalinists etc (there could be over 100 in the UK alone), are those who pretend they aren't interested but take delight in all this kind of rubbish. I very much doubt there are even 10,000 people in all these groups put together.


 
Well of course all these groups have a very vague way of defining member, but consider this. The SWP claims just over 7,000 members, with about 3,000 paying subs. The SP claims around 2,000 members and I think probably has a higher percentage of people paying subs than the SWP, just under 1,000. So you've got, in theory anyway, 9,000 right there just with the two biggest groups. so yes in theory there are 10,000+ members of trot organizations in the country. It's quite a substantial number when you consider just how awful they are for the most part.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Revleft is a fucking madhouse. It seems to consist entirely of teenage internet Hoxhaists and the occasional random SWP member. It's a bit odd that they choose Revleft of all places to post.


 
There was also one mental Sparts vs CWI arguement i fucking took them apart


----------



## Belushi (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Well I'm pretty sure there are a few Socialist Party members on this thread for a start. I suspected SWP as well, but maybe not given what's said above.


 
Don't you worry I've got files on all of them.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> So what? The far left can be a pretty absurd place. Having a bit of a sense of humour about it isn't a bad thing, you know.


 
But the humour, I suspect, is always about other groups without the obvious realisation that they are in a split, from a split, from split and in a tiny sect themselves. Also given I actually believe in socialist politics it kinda loses its humour value when you see the sad ramshackle bunch of cranky groups who represent those ideas, and totally fuck up stuff like the anti-cuts movement.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> Don't you worry I've got files on all of them.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Well of course all these groups have a very vague way of defining member, but consider this. The SWP claims just over 7,000 members, with about 3,000 paying subs. The SP claims around 2,000 members and I think probably has a higher percentage of people paying subs than the SWP, just under 1,000. So you've got, in theory anyway, 9,000 right there just with the two biggest groups. so yes in theory there are 10,000+ members of trot organizations in the country. It's quite a substantial number when you consider just how awful they are for the most part.


 
In fairness, that "9,000" is going to contain quite a lot of people who are blissfully unaware of their SWP membership. I would be pretty confident that there aren't 10,000 members of left groups in Britain at the moment.


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## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I never you'd been in the swp roadkill.


the swp has such a high turnover that approximately one in three people you meet is ex swp.

you're probably ex swp yourself and don't even know it.


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## Belushi (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> you're probably ex swp yourself and don't even know it.


 
They're like the Mormons, you join and they add all your relatives, living and dead, to the membership list.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

I'd imagine there's a fair bit of crossover too. I'm in the SP but I'm pretty sure I'm still included in the SWP membership figures since I still get supposedly confidential internal emails (that's after about 3 or 4 years too).


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> But the humour, I suspect, is always about other groups without the obvious realisation that they are in a split, from a split, from split and in a tiny sect themselves.


 
I think you'll find that most people in left groups are keenly aware of the political marginality of their own organisation, with the possible exception of some of the more excitable SWP members and a few mad Spartoids. And, in my experience, most of them have some sense of their more absurd aspects of their own organisations too.


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## Deareg (Apr 15, 2012)

Instead of all this gloating, Shouldn't we be trying to get them all to kiss and make up?

Will nobody think of the dialectics?


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

I went to one of their (SWP) meetings once and they sent me stuff and kept ringing me up.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I think you'll find that most people in left groups are keenly aware of the political marginality of their own organisation, with the possible exception of some of the more excitable SWP members and a few mad Spartoids. And, in my experience, most of them have some sense of their more absurd aspects of their own organisations too.


 
Except people in the SP. We quite rightly think that there's nothing absurd about our group and that every decision that's ever been made about the party line has always been 100% correct. We are the true leaders of the working class.


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## Belushi (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I went to one of their (SWP) meetings once and they sent me stuff and kept ringing me up.


 
You are so a member


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## Fedayn (Apr 15, 2012)

As an aside, Arthur Deane, one of the founders of the RCP in 1945, died recently. Any sectologist would know about his family and their involvement with the Trotskyist movement in Britain.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Workers Power must be in a bad way at the moment. First the old duffers left, now the kids.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'd imagine there's a fair bit of crossover too. I'm in the SP but I'm pretty sure I'm still included in the SWP membership figures since I still get supposedly confidential internal emails (that's after about 3 or 4 years too).


 
Yeah I get emails from the SWP, SP and Labour so I'm probably in all three technically.

The most important thing to consider here is turnover. Most of these parties don't have difficulty in actracting new members, it's making sure those members don't leave after the first 2 meetings where they struggle. I could go into specifics but I think it's probably not wise just coz I don't want to get into a petty sectarian arguments ala RevLeft over it.


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## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

Belushi said:


> They're like the Mormons, you join and they add all your relatives, living and dead, to the membership list.


you're a member. i got you to join last saturday when you were drunk and dancing with your hands in the air to disco. stick that in your files, beria!


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## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 15, 2012)

Their last album was shit anyway.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> I think you'll find that most people in left groups are keenly aware of the political marginality of their own organisation, with the possible exception of some of the more excitable SWP members and a few mad Spartoids. And, in my experience, most of them have some sense of their more absurd aspects of their own organisations too.


 
To be honest my experience of people in far left groups is that they live in a bubble world in quite a few cases, and their humour about the left is largely about other groups, even though the sect they are in has exactly the same problems. The most excited I see them getting is when there is a chance to slag off another irrelevant group. And even if they are aware of the absurd nature of things it still doesn't stop them acting in a way to fuck up stuff like the anti-cuts movement. I went along, for my sins, to the RTW, COR and NSSN anti-cuts initiatives (and even took my work colleagues along to the NSSN event, they never went back after the experience) and they were all as bad as each other and had no real reason why they shouldn't be combined. They were all more than happy to drive people out in droves as long as they kept their brand and their control on things. And all of them seem to have done very little and now we have the anti-cuts movement in the dire state it's in now, with the far left having a large chunk of the responsibility for that.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Workers Power must be in a bad way at the moment. First the old duffers left, now the kids.


 
Would the "old duffers" be Permanent Revolution by any chance?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

never mind that if you have not looked at revleft you have not seen anything about people in left wing groups being completely unaware of anything to do with how unimportant they are and how everyone would think they were an idiot. There is page after page on there about people going on about the most irrleevant crap. There was some arguement from this "left communist" about how Trotsky should not have supported the Second World War and the USSR defending itself against Hitler, because fascism was essentially no different to capitalism. Utter shite, I am sure there are reasons to criticise Trotsky for but saying that the USSR should not have fought against Hitler because of some ultra left book full of bollocks is the worst reason I've ever heard.

And the meat vs vegetarain arguement is fucking hilarious some of the people actually think that people who eat meat are class traitors or something.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> As an aside, Arthur Deane, one of the founders of the RCP in 1945, died recently. Any sectologist would know about his family and their involvement with the Trotskyist movement in Britain.


Brother of Jimmy and Briane, son of Gertie. The kids turning her into a trotskysist rather than the other way round.


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## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> That was basically the case for working class SWP members as well.


 
Not allowed to read _Socialist Worker_ online?

Here's Duncan Hallas, from a working class background, on the internet. Working class members of the SWP not allowed to read, or listen to Hallas?

https://epress.anu.edu.au/archive/hallas/


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> never mind that if you have not looked at revleft you have not seen anything about people in left wing groups being completely unaware of anything to do with how unimportant they are and how everyone would think they were an idiot. There is page after page on there about people going on about the most irrleevant crap. There was some arguement from this "left communist" about how Trotsky should not have supported the Second World War and the USSR defending itself against Hitler, because fascism was essentially no different to capitalism. Utter shite, I am sure there are reasons to criticise Trotsky for but saying that the USSR should not have fought against Hitler because of some ultra left book full of bollocks is the worst reason I've ever heard.


 
You'd love a wanker like that to end up in the camps in place of some poor bastard that didn't deserve to.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> To be honest my experience of people in far left groups is that they live in a bubble world in quite a few cases, and their humour about the left is largely about other groups, even though the sect they are in has exactly the same problems.


 
You need to get out a bit more.


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## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Not allowed to read _Socialist Worker_ online?
> 
> Here's Duncan Hallas, from a working class background, on the internet. Working class members of the SWP not allowed to read, or listen to Hallas?
> 
> https://epress.anu.edu.au/archive/hallas/


it's been dealt with. read the whole thread.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Would the "old duffers" be Permanent Revolution by any chance?


 
Yep.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> never mind that if you have not looked at revleft you have not seen anything about people in left wing groups being completely unaware of anything to do with how unimportant they are and how everyone would think they were an idiot. There is page after page on there about people going on about the most irrleevant crap. There was some arguement from this "left communist" about how Trotsky should not have supported the Second World War and the USSR defending itself against Hitler, because fascism was essentially no different to capitalism. Utter shite, I am sure there are reasons to criticise Trotsky for but saying that the USSR should not have fought against Hitler because of some ultra left book full of bollocks is the worst reason I've ever heard.
> 
> And the meat vs vegetarain arguement is fucking hilarious some of the people actually think that people who eat meat are class traitors or something.


 
Best thread I ever saw on there was "are migrant workers all the same as scabs" or something like that. I don't think it was a troll thread but if it was it was genius.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeah I asked one of them whether if there was no choice, they would rather kill and eat a human or a chicken and they couldn't answer the question! they eventually said "the chicken because it would be easier to cook"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> oh god i caused a massive arguement on revleft on a thread called "Are meat workers counter revolutionary"?  There was also another arguement where someone in an irish republican group who had been tortured or something and some of the people on there were going on about how to oppose it was "supporting nationalism" or some shit


some time ago i was in derry and got talking to one of the american swp i knew to say hello to from london, and it turned out he'd been sent off to somewhere in scotland to work in the meatpacking industry


----------



## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Not quite. SWP members were forbidden from participating in a particular internet discussion forum at some point in the mid 1990s. They weren't forbidden from being on the internet!
> 
> They do have something of a cultural opposition to internet forums though. It's not a rule, but their members rarely participate in online discussion outside of their house blog Lenin's Tomb.


 
There are a quite a number of Individual SWP members and branches who have a presence on facebook.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

You lot are making RevLeft seem like more fun than it actually is.


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## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I asked one of them whether if there was no choice, they would rather kill and eat a human or a chicken and they couldn't answer the question! they eventually said "the chicken because it would be easier to cook"


i would kill them both. a chicken isn't going to last long, especially between two people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I asked one of them whether if there was no choice, they would rather kill and eat a human or a chicken and they couldn't answer the question! they eventually said "the chicken because it would be easier to cook"


human's pretty easy too in all honesty


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> You lot are making RevLeft seem like more fun than it actually is.


 

I could literlaly not believe the human vs chicken thing. I could not believe that somebody could not answer the question of whether they would kill and eat a human or a chicken!

Do you post on there then? I have a feeling I know who you are on there if you do!


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> There are a quite a number of Individual SWP members and branches who have a presence on facebook.


 
That's true, although it's quite a recent departure.

Facebook became a bit problematic here for a while because due to the ULA a bunch of SWP and SP members were becoming facebook friends and then squabbling about stupid stuff. It's one thing to do that here, where nobody who isn't already interested in far left stuff is reading. It's quite another thing to do it in front of everyone's friends and family.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> it's been dealt with. read the whole thread.


 
My eyes are glazing over.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I could literlaly not believe the human vs chicken thing. I could not believe that somebody could not answer the question of whether they would kill and eat a human or a chicken!
> 
> Do you post on there then? I have a feeling I know who you are on there if you do!


 
Nope. It makes me feel old.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's true, although it's quite a recent departure.
> 
> Facebook became a bit problematic here for a while because due to the ULA a bunch of SWP and SP members were becoming facebook friends and then squabbling about stupid stuff. It's one thing to do that here, where nobody who isn't already interested in far left stuff is reading. It's quite another thing to do it in front of everyone's friends and family.


 
I cant stand political arguements on my facebook wall I just delete them, the stalinist that i am


----------



## JimW (Apr 15, 2012)

Why hasn't P&P been closed for the day to mark this tragedy for the working class?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's true, although it's quite a recent departure.
> 
> Facebook became a bit problematic here for a while because due to the ULA a bunch of SWP and SP members were becoming facebook friends and then squabbling about stupid stuff. It's one thing to do that here, where nobody who isn't already interested in far left stuff is reading. It's quite another thing to do it in front of everyone's friends and family.


 
There's not much debate I've found.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Nope. It makes me feel old.


 
oh ok, i was convinced that you did and that i had worked out who you were on there.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> You need to get out a bit more.


 
Maybe, but members of far left sects need to get out even more I suspect. Look at the ridiculous knowledge that far left members on here have of every split ever gone on, I don't know whether it's funny or tragic.

They will carry on going round and round in dwindling circles, but in the process do real damage to things like the anti-cuts movement and trying to get a decent grass roots organisations in the unions. The fact that they represent socialist ideas, makes socialism a joke unfortunatley.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> There's not much debate I've found.


 
My impression is that English socialists are quite unlikely to be facebook friends with many people in other left groups. It's different over here, partly because of the ULA and partly because the left is generally a bit less focused on the unending sectarian war of all against all. A side-effect of that is that there's much more opportunity for people to act the maggot.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Maybe, but members of far left sects need to get out even more I suspect. Look at the ridiculous knowledge that far left members on here have of every split ever gone on, I don't know whether it's funny or tragic.


 
That's no more or less absurd than any other slightly unusual hobby. It could be stamp collecting or building model railroads.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Maybe, but members of far left sects need to get out even more I suspect. Look at the ridiculous knowledge that far left members on here have of every split ever gone on, I don't know whether it's funny or tragic.


 
In my defense, I'd be interested in this kind of sectarian party political stuff regardless of whether I was in any kind of organization. I'm just a politics geek, these things interest me, what more can I say?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> My impression is that English socialists are quite unlikely to be facebook friends with many people in other left groups. It's different over here, partly because of the ULA and partly because the left is generally a bit less focused on the unending sectarian war of all against all. A side-effect of that is that there's much more opportunity for people to act the maggot.


 
There are some (a fair few I've seen) who are with other left groups and Labour party members here.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

i've got a few swp etc members on my facebook mostly through anti cuts stuff and demos. i used to make jokes about the swp on there but i don't usually now because i feel bad about upsetting somebody who may be reading. i also don't really think there's much point, like you say nigel a lot of that stuff just tends to put people off. (and your friends and family may look at it and think you're a twat)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> My impression is that English socialists are quite unlikely to be facebook friends with many people in other left groups. It's different over here, partly because of the ULA and partly because the left is generally a bit less focused on the unending sectarian war of all against all. A side-effect of that is that there's much more opportunity for people to act the maggot.


 
I think it depends where you live - it's not too bad here, we're cooperating quite well on a few initiatives and I've got a few SWP on my facebook. I only tend to use it as a communication tool though, don't often get into discussions on there, so I've not had the kind of problems you describe.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> i also don't really think there's much point, like you say nigel a lot of that stuff just tends to put people off.


 
Indeed it does. And probably the very same jokes could be made about the Socialist Party or whoever else.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i've got a few swp etc members on my facebook mostly through anti cuts stuff and demos. i used to make jokes about the swp on there but i don't usually now because i feel bad about upsetting somebody who may be reading. i also don't really think there's much point, like you say nigel a lot of that stuff just tends to put people off. (and your friends and family may look at it and think you're a twat)


 
Yeah, plus chances are you're gonna have to work with them in the future and stuff like that makes it way harder.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Indeed it does. And probably the very same jokes could be made about the Socialist Party or whoever else.


 
I don't think it's quite that simple. The jokes about the SWP that I hear tend to be about them all being middle class and wearing Palestinian scarves and hunting for wacists, sexists and homophobes where there aren't any.

The jokes about us that I hear are that we're all sexists with fake scouse accents.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)




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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

Maybe the jokes change for each sect between the sects, but essentially they are all the same. The vast majority of people have never even heard of any of them, and those that have don't distinguish between one and another, they just think they are all a joke. I took people from work to both COR and NSSN events and in the case of COR  they never did anything (after what seemed like quite a good conference of over 1000) so no-one got involved and in the case of the NSSN there was a massive bun fight where people were splitting minor political differences in justifying why we all had to be in a seperate group. I had to buy them all a drink to apologise for taking them there.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's no more or less absurd than any other slightly unusual hobby. It could be stamp collecting or building model railroads.


 
I don't see what's absurd about it at all. I'm interested in Social History, that's what interests me in life, and so surely someone who's interested in that sort of thing would be interested in obscure left-wing political groups and stuff? I mean if you went into a history department of a university, and saw them studying crop rotation records from 16th century shropshire, would that be considered absurd too?

There's also another facet to this, which is socialsts of my generation are faced with a real problem with where they should devote their energies today. The Labour Party is a no-go. Been there, tried that, failed miserably. Left groups? Hopeless. Embittered and sectarian, wedded to a view of the world which belongs in the 1920's. UKUncut and Occupy? Far too liberal, far to peacable, and detached from any serious, long-term, political project. Anarchism? Every bit as sectarian as the standard left in my experiences, with exceptions. I also don't believe it's actually possible to destroy the mechanisms of neo-liberal capitalism without having a huge amount of power, the ruling class won't give up without a fight y'know. I have this horrible feeling that the horizontal loose networks and federations of sovereign individuals would be smashed to pieces by the forces of capital and the state if they ever got into a position where they do pose a threat. There's a reason the only "successful" revolutions in history have been highly disciplined, heirachical organizations, because something like that might be what's needed to destroy capitalism and overthrow the state. It's also the reason why pretty much all the attempts at revolutionary communism have, in practice, ended in failure and bloodbath. So I don't think there's an answer along anarchist lines either.

It puts people like me, and other young (under 25 if that still counts as young) socialists in an awful position. We're gonna have to begin the long, arduous process of re-established new ideas and new organizations to carry those idea's out into the public, as the generations prior to us have preferred to live in total denial. A working knowledge of where organizations have failed in the past would no doubt help in avoiding those mistakes in the future.

It's also pretty funny too, some of the crankish stuff i've heard these left wing groups get upto deserve their own sitcom.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Speaking of trivial splits, Workers Power actually had another couple of splits recently. They kicked out two people at their conference the other week who were involved in some kind of discussion process for random mentals organised by Socialist Fight. They also had a split in their Austrian section to found some new group called the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency, which apparently has a couple of British supporters. Amazing name by the way, but spoiled a bit by its relative brevity. It's the sort of name that should have at least seven words in it.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Who are socialist fight? There is some mental guy on my facebook who thinks that Russia and all other eastern block countries are still all somehow stalinist. He wrote a blog entry where he actually criticised me among other wordy polemics for "accommodating to liberal bourgeois nationalism" for being a fan of England on facebook!


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I don't see what's absurd about it at all. I'm interested in Social History, that's what interests me in life, and so surely someone who's interested in that sort of thing would be interested in obscure left-wing political groups and stuff? I mean if you went into a history department of a university, and saw them studying crop rotation records from 16th century shropshire, would that be considered absurd too?


 
You don't think it's absurd to be interested in what lies behind the split of the Revolutionary Communist Internationalist Tendency from the League for the Fifth International? Because I am and I do.




			
				Delroy Booth said:
			
		

> It's also pretty funny too, some of the crankish stuff i've heard these left wing groups get upto deserve their own sitcom.


 
Exactly.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Who are socialist fight?


 
A lad who used to be in the WRP and some of his imaginary friends.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

Some good points Delroy. I also share that problem of where to devote energies. I do a lot of trade union and anti-cuts work but I know far more than that is needed. I still totally believe in socialist/marxist ideas, and it saddens me that the current crop of joke groups who say they represent those ideas are what is out there. Not only do they fail to get anywhere, they also fuck up stuff like the anti-cuts movement. The problem is though, where to go as a socialist to get more involved, and at the moment I don't know.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> A lad who used to be in the WRP and some of his imaginary friends.


 
I might be thinking of the same guy actually. Ah just looked, it's not.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

I would love there to be a sitcom about the sparts or something, I would so watch it i reckon it could be as funny as father ted


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Some good points Delroy. I also share that problem of where to devote energies. I do a lot of trade union and anti-cuts work but I know far more than that is needed. I still totally believe in socialist/marxist ideas, and it saddens me that the current crop of joke groups who say they represent those ideas are what is out there. Not only do they fail to get anywhere, they also fuck up stuff like the anti-cuts movement. The problem is though, where to go as a socialist to get more involved, and at the moment I don't know.


 
This is a bit bizarre. The left groups haven't screwed up the anti-cuts movement at all - they don't really have the power to do so, and to be blunt about it, most people who might go on anti-cuts protest neither know nor care about the existence of three different national anti-cuts campaigns. The trade union leaders screwed up the anti-cuts movement. You are mistaking things you find irritating for things that really matter.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I would love there to be a sitcom about the sparts or something, I would so watch it i reckon it could be as funny as father ted


and those would only be the true bits


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Some good points Delroy. I also share that problem of where to devote energies. I do a lot of trade union and anti-cuts work but I know far more than that is needed. I still totally believe in socialist/marxist ideas, and it saddens me that the current crop of joke groups who say they represent those ideas are what is out there. Not only do they fail to get anywhere, they also fuck up stuff like the anti-cuts movement. The problem is though, where to go as a socialist to get more involved, and at the moment I don't know.


 
Yeah I reckon we're in the same boat tell you the truth. In the meantime I'll work with the unions and go so far as to support TUSC electorally, just because there's absolutely fuck all else out there, but blatantly we're at a point where we can't just go on as this indefinitely.


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## JimW (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I would love there to be a sitcom about the sparts or something, I would so watch it i reckon it could be as funny as father ted


Didn't Lenin of the Rovers work a bit like that? Memory a bit dim.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

with suspicious minds


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> This is a bit bizarre. The left groups haven't screwed up the anti-cuts movement at all - they don't really have the power to do so, and to be blunt about it, most people who might go on anti-cuts protest neither know nor care about the existence of three different national anti-cuts campaigns. The trade union leaders screwed up the anti-cuts movement. You are mistaking things you find irritating for things that really matter.


 
To be honest they've not exactly been helpful though, have they? Last years NCAFC conference ended up a total farce.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> with suspicious minds


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> To be honest they've not exactly been helpful though, have they? Last years NCAFC conference ended up a total farce.


 
But the NCAFC doesn't matter. So really, what difference does it make if its conference is a notch sillier or a notch less silly?


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> I would love there to be a sitcom about the sparts or something, I would so watch it i reckon it could be as funny as father ted


The same could be said for the SWP, Socialist Party or any other of the dozens of far left groups.



> This is a bit bizarre. The left groups haven't screwed up the anti-cuts movement at all - they don't really have the power to do so, and to be blunt about it, most people who might go on anti-cuts protest neither know nor care about the existence of three different national anti-cuts campaigns. The trade union leaders screwed up the anti-cuts movement. You are mistaking things you find irritating for things that really matter.


 
Don't agree at all. The left divided already very small numbers of activists in to three different national groups (Right to Work, Coalition of Resistance and NSSN). They did on the basis of minor political differences so they could have their own fronts. If they had had a united national federation and not being total and utter idiots in so many of the local groups then I think it could have had a big difference. Not saying it would have been a game changer necessarily but it would have made a real difference and at least given things much more of a chance. I saw left groups tear local anti-cuts groups apart with their bickering and sectarianism.

Obviously the trade union bureaucrats screwed things up on a larger scale, but that's what you would expect them to do, I'd hope from better from socialist groups.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

yeah, i'm sure that same thing could go for the SP and SWP, i'd love to see a sitcom like that it wouldn't offend me in the least. I'd love to see any kind of televisual representation of trots tbf that wasn't just someone in the news quoting what government ministers had said about it. like a romantic comedy or a chick flick lol


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

If Chris Morris is looking for idea's to do a follow-up to Four Lions then he'd do a lot worse than checking out this thread.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 15, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Don't agree at all. The left divided already very small numbers of activists in to three different national groups (Right to Work, Coalition of Resistance and NSSN). They did on the basis of minor political differences so they could have their own fronts. If they had had a united national federation and not being total and utter idiots in so many of the local groups then I think it could have had a big difference. Not saying it would have been a game changer necessarily but it would have made a real difference and at least given things much more of a chance.


 
This is just nonsense. The national groups had very little impact on anything, and, given that the trade union leaders drastically undermined the whole movement, a single national group would probably have had very little impact on anything too. As for the local groups, sure there was some stupid squabbling, and there were also arguments about things that weren't stupid at all - like what attitude to take towards Labour locally.

About all the "three rival national campaigns" did was organise a small number of protests and conferences. Which was broadly speaking a good thing, but not one that had much of an impact.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

There was that film where the guy thinks that he is a reincarnation of trotsky wasn't there? I've never seen it though.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm sorry, while I agree that all the groups have their own eccentricities and are funny in a way they don't intend to me, if you genuinely think that a sitcom about the SP or SWP would be as funny as one about the sparts or the posadists, or they're even nearly as mental, then you've probably gone just a few steps too far along the plague on both your houses path.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 15, 2012)

> If Chris Morris is looking for idea's to do a follow-up to Four Lions then he'd do a lot worse than checking out this thread.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> If Chris Morris is looking for idea's to do a follow-up to Four Lions then he'd do a lot worse than checking out this thread.


 
Now that would be a fucking good film.


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## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

JimW said:


> Didn't Lenin of the Rovers work a bit like that? Memory a bit dim.


 
*roots through old cassettes*


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> There was that film where the guy thinks that he is a reincarnation of trotsky wasn't there? I've never seen it though.


 
That Aussie film where the lad figures out that his dad is Stalin is pretty funny. It can be done.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> *roots through old cassettes*


 
I've got 'em on mp3 there are various places you can get them online if you know where to look. Very funny.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm sorry, while I agree that all the groups have their own eccentricities and are funny in a way they don't intend to me, if you genuinely think that a sitcom about the SP or SWP would be as funny as one about the sparts or the posadists, or they're even nearly as mental, then you've probably gone just a few steps too far along the plague on both your houses path.


 
yeah, i agree. It would just be nice to see some more fictional portrayals of stuff is all.


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## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I've got 'em on mp3 there are various places you can get them online if you know where to look. Very funny.


 
Have you a lnk?


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

A sitcom about the SWP or the SP could be very funny, whereas you wouldn't even need a good scriptwriter for one about the sparts or posadists - in fact a documentary about the sparts or posadists would be hilarious.Whereas a documentary about the SP or SWP might make you cringe but it wouldn't be all that funny.

Now that's a post I never thought I'd type out


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> There was that film where the guy thinks that he is a reincarnation of trotsky wasn't there? I've never seen it though.


 
It's a bit shit tbh. He sets up a student union.

Surprised nobody's mentioned citizen smith to be honest.

Edited cos I replied to the wrong post


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

You're bang on about the sparts vs the SP/Swappies thing. The sparts and the people on revleft are on another fucking level to the majority of people on here and also most people in left wing groups in real life. The way that these groups operate is completely different to anything likely to be seen on urban75 or even this planet. They never talk to real people and if you are wanting to talk about how left-wing groups' members live in a bubble then NOTHING not even the most diehard party hack of the SWP could compare to these people. Nothing. It is like they are not living on the same earth as anyone else.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> You're bang on about the sparts vs the SP/Swappies thing. The sparts and the people on revleft are on another fucking level to the majority of people on here and also most people in left wing groups in real life. The way that these groups operate is completely different to anything likely to be seen on urban75 or even this planet. They never talk to real people and if you are wanting to talk about how left-wing groups' members live in a bubble then NOTHING not even the most diehard party hack of the SWP could compare to these people. Nothing. It is like they are not living on the same earth as anyone else.


what about libcon?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> You're bang on about the sparts vs the SP/Swappies thing. The sparts and the people on revleft are on another fucking level to the majority of people on here and also most people in left wing groups in real life. The way that these groups operate is completely different to anything likely to be seen on urban75 or even this planet. They never talk to real people and if you are wanting to talk about how left-wing groups' members live in a bubble then NOTHING not even the most diehard party hack of the SWP could compare to these people. Nothing. It is like they are not living on the same earth as anyone else.


 
It always reminded me of monks who'd go and live on some hebridean island in total solitude, convinced that their interpretation of the bible was the "true faith" and that all the other monks on the other islands are just heretics on a par with devil-worshippers.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what about libcon?


 
no idea, i sometimes read libcom for the articles in it because they sometimes have some interesting stuff but i've never got involved in any of the discussions. It doesn't look that different to here tbh - the bits I've read anyway.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It always reminded me of monks who'd go and live on some hebridean island in total solitude, convinced that their interpretation of the bible was the "true faith" and that all the other monks on the other islands are just heretics on a par with devil-worshippers.


 
They do though! When they stood up and did that intervention it was like they were speaking about a religion, they were going on like "The International Communist League have upheld the TRUE FORM OF TROTSKYISM SINCE 1945"


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> no idea, i sometimes read libcom for the articles in it because they sometimes have some interesting stuff but i've never got involved in any of the discussions. It doesn't look that different to here tbh - the bits I've read anyway.


it's like here only shit


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> They do though! When they stood up and did that intervention it was like they were speaking about a religion, they were going on like "The International Communist League have upheld the TRUE FORM OF TROTSKYISM SINCE 1945"


and they think that's some sort of badge of honour?


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Apart from using the library on there, the only time I ever went on libcom was to look at a thread someone linked to that was started by a bloke who'd called "the revolution" on facebook. One of the funniest things I've ever seen on the internet.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

do you have a link?


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## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

Maybe it's me,   but to be honest frogwoman, I once went to a Socialist Labour Party election meeting and I thought at the time that the speaker from the sparts was the most interesting of that nights contributions from the floor *and* from the top table of the SLP.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and they think that's some sort of badge of honour?


 
well i suppose it is. but THE TRUE FORM OF TROTSKYISM? they are like the fred phelps's of the trot world.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> well i suppose it is. but THE TRUE FORM OF TROTSKYISM? they are like the fred phelps's of the trot world.


the fucking arthur fowlers of the trot world


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Maybe it's me,  but to be honest frogwoman, I once went to a Socialist Labour Party election meeting and I thought at the time that the speaker from the sparts was the most interesting of that nights contributions from the floor *and* from the top table of the SLP.


 
I never said they weren't interesting! And to be fair I do sometimes read their website and they sometimes have some interesting stuff to say, especially about Russia and more technical/in detail international stuff. I also think they were involved in some initiatives to get black workers in the states involved in trade unions back in the 70s and some stuff around prison rights which seemed to be quite good.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> do you have a link?


 
I've just tried to find it but I can't, it was a couple of years ago. The OP wasn't a regular poster I don't think and they were taking the piss something chronic so I don't think it really says anything about the forum to be fair.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

So has anyone got any more funny stories from the world of obscure left-wing politics they could add to this thread? There must be loads of them.

I remember during a meeting in Salford during the time of Hazel Blears expenses scandal, attended by a lot of working class people outside the orbit of the left, people pissed off with the way Labour treats them, a well known local anarchist stood up and demanded a point of order and a debate on whether or not there is a parliamentary road to socialism. He would not sit down until we had acknowledged the request. I could see people rolling their eyes and people who knew him going saying "ffs not now barry" as he was saying it.

Maybe you had to be there.


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## belboid (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> There was that film where the guy thinks that he is a reincarnation of trotsky wasn't there? I've never seen it though.


The Trotsky.  It is kind of shit.


audiotech said:


> *roots through old cassettes*


Ive got a download of them, I'll work summat out to get them over to you/whover if you like


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## Red Storm (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> So has anyone got any more funny stories from the world of obscure left-wing politics they could add to this thread? There must be loads of them.
> 
> I remember during a meeting in Salford during the time of Hazel Blears expenses scandal, attended by a lot of working class people outside the orbit of the left, people pissed off with the way Labour treats them, a well known local anarchist stood up and demanded a point of order and a debate on whether or not there is a parliamentary road to socialism. He would not sit down until we had acknowledged the request. I could see people rolling their eyes and people who knew him going saying "ffs not now barry" as he was saying it.
> 
> Maybe you had to be there.


 
Not as good as when Anarchist Barry pointed to a burly trade unionist and cried 'See comrades! Too many trade union dinners!'


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

To be honest they should just do a sitcom about him. That'd suit me fine.


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## audiotech (Apr 15, 2012)

belboid said:


> The Trotsky. It is kind of shit.
> 
> Ive got a download of them, I'll work summat out to get them over to you/whover if you like


 
Thanks belboid, it's sorted.


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## elbows (Apr 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It puts people like me, and other young (under 25 if that still counts as young) socialists in an awful position. We're gonna have to begin the long, arduous process of re-established new ideas and new organizations to carry those idea's out into the public, as the generations prior to us have preferred to live in total denial. A working knowledge of where organizations have failed in the past would no doubt help in avoiding those mistakes in the future.
> 
> It's also pretty funny too, some of the crankish stuff i've heard these left wing groups get upto deserve their own sitcom.


 
Sitcom doomed because there isn't a big enough potential audience that would understand the references. Just another indicator that they aren't relevant enough.

And now some potentially useless tips.

For a start you can throw away that age limit, theres plenty of people older than you who never got a chance to operate in an era where it was easy to suspend disbelief and imagine that the cause had momentum. Despite the various opportunities to struggle more overtly at times in for example the 1980's, marginalisation and internal bickering was hardly absent. Personally I was just a tad too young to join in with that stuff, and by the 1990s the ideological winds were blowing in an ugly direction much too constantly for me to think that was a time where I could be part of an epic struggle. I could have put some effort into struggling in a less epic manner, but the prior soiling of so many labels and ideas, and the human obsession with our differences rather than our similarities, took the wind out of my sails.

When it comes to organisational failings and mistakes, I have experienced this stuff in a different context, not connected with left-wing groups, but with some of the same underlying forces at work. In my opinion the keys to overcoming such problems stem not just from the organisational structure, the people involved, or the ideals involved, but many other factors that are more a matter of timing and external realities than anything else. The right people and structures matter, but such things can still tend towards the petty squabbling if the following ingredients are absent:

A window of opportunity due to much broader societal or economic issues of the day enabling your part of the political spectrum to be relevant. 
The sense that the problem must be tackled with real sacrifice and a deep sense of immediacy.
Significant momentum as a result of the above.

At times where the above are in place, you stand a much more reasonable chance of overcoming the pettiness of people. The decade ahead is more promising in this respect than recent decades. Add the right ideas, structures and people to this situation and you might even get somewhere. 

New ideas are indeed a good place to start. Even those who think that we have enough older ideas that are still appropriate should acknowledge that something new may be necessary on this front. So much has been discredited, so many labels have become killers of momentum rather than things that can be used to unlock the potential that the tumultuous times ahead offer. It is possible that the scale of problems will reenable the old ideas without them needing a facelift, but I suspect a new twist on old themes is a better bet.


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## elbows (Apr 15, 2012)

Also you need to continually refocus dogma into a narrow, well-targeted beam, to stop it spreading out in a manner that crushes and splits your org.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 15, 2012)

Elbows the thing is those sorts of in-fighting and arguing are unavoidable in ANY group of people. Christ almight my uncle's a member of the budgerigar society and you wanna check out some of the power struggles and internal bickering that goes on there! There's never going to be a political party that's not riddled with factions and demagogues and chancers and opportunists, it's something that goes a lot deeper into human nature than we're admitting, it's not reducable down to "aren't trots stupid lol" coz i've met a lot of full-on trots and they're generally smart worthwhile people, who could've ended up doing very well if they'd have joined the Labour party when they were young and kissed enough arse.

The old quote, Socialism is an answer to man's material problems, but not a solution to his human ones, springs into my mind at this point.


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## elbows (Apr 16, 2012)

I know, thats why I talked about how important it is that the stakes be high enough that such bickering can be temporarily overcome.


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## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

Not on a par with some of the stuff on here but I've always found the RCG's position on the Labour party to be pretty bizarre. From what I can gather from speaking to them; the labour party is fascist and so are all it's members. You'd have though the fact that they where openly selling their paper on the streets while me had a Labour government may have given them pause for thought, but apparently not.

My first encounter with them goes all the way back to Blair's first war, the one in the Balkans, when I was a wee slip of a lad. We had a local anti-war meeting which was chaired by a Labour party member and one of the stood up and called all Labour party members, including the chair of the meeting, fascists.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

Aren't the RCG the ones almost entirely funded by Cuba? That is to say, a one-party authoritarian state with no legal opposition?


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## elbows (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> My first encounter with them goes all the way back to Blair's first war, the one in the Balkans, when I was a wee slip of a lad. We had a local anti-war meeting which was chaired by a Labour party member and one of the stood up and called all Labour party members, including the chair of the meeting, fascists.


 
Crypto-fascists!


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## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

On the sitcom thing, it has to be a spart an SP member and an SWP member end up sharing a house with a normal person not interested in politics with hilarious results. Hmm, I'm wondering if there should be a tory in there somewhere as well? No better a Lib dem! Yeah the normal one has a friend/relative/partner who is a lib dem and only turns up occasionally.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Not on a par with some of the stuff on here but I've always found the RCG's position on the Labour party to be pretty bizarre. From what I can gather from speaking to them; the labour party is fascist and so are all it's members. You'd have though the fact that they where openly selling their paper on the streets while me had a Labour government may have given them pause for thought, but apparently not.
> 
> My first encounter with them goes all the way back to Blair's first war, the one in the Balkans, when I was a wee slip of a lad. We had a local anti-war meeting which was chaired by a Labour party member and one of the stood up and called all Labour party members, including the chair of the meeting, fascists.


 
LOL.

Yeah, I would find that ridiculous. I find some of the rhetoric about "tories and fascists" pretty tiresome tbh (i know i have done it myself but as a joke). Learn what fascism is before you call something fascist ffs.


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## elbows (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> On the sitcom thing, it has to be a spart an SP member and an SWP member end up sharing a house with a normal person not interested in politics with hilarious results. Hmm, I'm wondering if there should be a tory in there somewhere as well? No better a Lib dem! Yeah the normal one has a friend/relative/partner who is a lib dem and only turns up occasionally.


 
I'd be more interested in a sitcom that took place in a fictitious country that was working under a different and more desirable system. The sitcom could demonstrate the ways in which peoples lives were better as a result.

This has plenty of potential, of either messing it up real bad and making a mockery of interesting ideas, or of dying in a freak accident should the series capture the popular imagination.


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## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Aren't the RCG the ones almost entirely funded by Cuba? That is to say, a one-party authoritarian state with no legal opposition?


I don't know if there funded by Cuba but they thinks it's really socialist, and the Love Castro and of course Che. Which always made me wonder why they don't just buy a lot of guns, piss of to the Pennines and start a guerilla war.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

At this point I'd just like to affirm my creation and therefore ownership of the idea of a sitcom about crankish trots as my own private property. Copyright infringement will not tolerated from this point onwards.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

One of those mental anarchists from america who think that eating meat is counterrevolutionary etc should also be involved too.


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## Red Storm (Apr 16, 2012)

Simon Hardy said:
			
		

> The problem is that the new left organisations have not always worked but neither have the disciplined revolutionary cadre 'parties' (sects). Those sects have survived, sometimes grown, sometimes shrunk, but never made the break through. I agree that any new organisation which is broader is not guaranteed to work, but I think it is a better type of organisation to build. I suppose what I am saying is I have been in far left politics for 11 years and I want to spend the remained of my life building a new type of politics, one that has the healthier tradition from the RSDLP/new left organisations, not the post war isolation and sect building that came to dominate the socialist left.



Taken from facebook.

Doesn't every claim to have a healthy tradition from the RSDLP?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

You've got so much to choose from we're spoilt for choice. I think a sketch show would be better format.

So are we gonna do this or what??


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## elbows (Apr 16, 2012)

To be more relevant to these silly times you might want to stick David Icke or Alex Jones in the loft too. They should only be given a catchphrase or two as dialogue.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

I'd like to suggest, "It's an inside job" and "the government/lizards did it."

We should write out some scripts and put something on youtube.

(Note: That's a joke. Please, please don't do that)


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## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

elbows said:


> I'd be more interested in a sitcom that took place in a fictitious country that was working under a different and more desirable system. The sitcom could demonstrate the ways in which peoples lives were better as a result.
> 
> This has plenty of potential, of either messing it up real bad and making a mockery of interesting ideas, or of dying in a freak accident should the series capture the popular imagination.


Well if you want to go down that route I think you need a 'fish out of water' character from a normal capitalist country. All the humor can come from his inability to understand how things work and showing how foolish all his ideas about how things should be are.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah this is something I saw on the blog of this guy I occasionally talk to on facebook the other day - as I said, heart's in the right place but completely fucked, i saw him write something on another messageboard about how he was "won to trotskyism at the age of 10" 


> Froggy has made her worse mistake in adapting to this middle class layer who have those illusions in Liberal Bourgeois layers. Froggy obviously does not support the Liberal Bourgeoisie or shares these middle class illusions. The mistake is she makes is conceding to English Liberal Nationalism by even signing up to “We like England”. Trotskyists should set up separate facebook groups calling for a workers/Socialist England. We would pose transitional demands to win workers; middle class; and all oppressed nationalities/ethnicities; women; and gays/lesbians of those classes over to this politics.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

Being "won to trotksyism" at the age of 10 sounds pretty chilling to me? how would you go about winning a 10 year old child to the transitional program? I dread to think.

Anyway an adolescence of trot theory and the involuntary celibacy that would no doubt entail will leave you writing things like that on the internet without even the slightest degree of self-awareness. And the use of the word "layers" haha fucking hell I mean that's ripe for the piss getting taken out of it!


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## Belushi (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> On the sitcom thing, it has to be a spart an SP member and an SWP member end up sharing a house with a normal person not interested in politics with hilarious results. Hmm, I'm wondering if there should be a tory in there somewhere as well? No better a Lib dem! Yeah the normal one has a friend/relative/partner who is a lib dem and only turns up occasionally.


 
Its beginning to sound like Only When I Laugh


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## Belushi (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Being "won to trotksyism" at the age of 10 sounds pretty chilling to me? how would you go about winning a 10 year old child to the transitional program? I dread to think.


 
I was a hardline Stalinist at the age of 10, but that's my Dads fault. One day I'll right a memoir about it, just can't decide whether it will be misery lit or a comedy.


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## elfman (Apr 16, 2012)

Love a bit of Trotspotting I do


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

I mean look at this:



> On November 15th it will be my 23rd year as a Trotskyist. I was won to
> Trotskyism at the age of 10 in the battle within the Socialist Action editorial
> board in Britain over Permanent Revolution between supporters of that theory and
> the Barneites which destroyed the most important Trotskyist organisation in the
> ...


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## Belushi (Apr 16, 2012)

If my 12 year old came out as a Trotskyist I'd drive them out into the night


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

well i would hope that any kids I had would make up their own minds about what they believed, i would never try to force a kid to be a trot or something or to believe in a certain type of permanent revolution. obviously i would tell them about political stuff but i would never force them to be anything, i even feel a bit weird sometimes when i see kids on demos! especially if they're obviously too young to understand what it's all about lol


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## Belushi (Apr 16, 2012)

My parents used to make me wear a sandwich board


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Lol. Yeah I'd never do that, I don't think that I would ever take them to sell newspapers either unless they actually wanted to do that, rather than go to the park or something.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

One of my old lecturers told me he sent his kids to catholic school because "A bit of dogma is good for kids" I had a feeling it was a precursor to being brainwashed into a life of deeply theoretical marxism.


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## Belushi (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Lol. Yeah I'd never do that, I don't think that I would ever take them to sell newspapers either unless they actually wanted to do that, rather than go to the park or something.


 
What kind of kid would actually want to go and sell newspapers?


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Belushi said:


> What kind of kid would actually want to go and sell newspapers?


 
rather fewer tthan the number of kids who would want to sit in a Tank, I'd imagine  The quest for rebuilding the 4th international hobbled by stalinist opportunitism and adaptations to bourgeoise social conditioning suggesting that tanks are "cooler" than newspapers at the age of 5


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## elfman (Apr 16, 2012)

A couple of years old but this thread made me remember it

http://libcom.org/blog/trotspotting...ted-know-about-sects-were-afraid-ask-18092009


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

elfman said:


> A couple of years old but this thread made me remember it
> 
> http://libcom.org/blog/trotspotting...ted-know-about-sects-were-afraid-ask-18092009


 
Yeah that's a good intro I wanted to write something along those lines but more comprehensive.

Like, imagine that the capitalist system went into self-destruct freefall all over the world, and the socialist movement sent out a call to rally all the remaining socialist groups to one banner and to take on capitalism, once and for all. Imagine it's like the final battle scene from Lord of the Rings or something. Well, if such a thing to occur, what would the forces of socialism be and how many would answer that call? If we had to have like a roll-call of the left, who would be on it. Like if you view it in liberal, Robert Dahl style terms, you could say "what if we aggregated all the political resources available to the socialist movement into something cohesive and organized, what resources would you have play with?" Resources in this case means members, money, influence etc. All the things you need to win a political struggle.

Because I think we're entering a very dark period of history where we don't know if we'll even survive as a movement, and that issues of left unity will not be an indulgent hobby for saddo's like me, but paramount to keeping the movement alive and providing some hope of an alternative to capitalism. Suggesting that capitalism is the best the human race could ever hope to achieve is a terrible slur on the human race.

Back in the day tactics like Leninism and Social Democracy were formulated under the assumption that we would ultimately win, that we would by the iron laws of history prevail, and that all we needed to do was refine the tactics and wait for history to take it's path. Tactics like reform and revolution were developped by people who believed that the world was theirs to inherit. Today, to speak of either tactic is perverse, reform vs revolution is a debate for people who stand a chance of winning power, we on the other hand have no chance of winning power by either reformist means or revolutionary means.

Right now we're in engaged in a defensive struggle and what the left is attempting to do is to "Rally to the flag" to defend what little gains we managed to make in the era of Social Democracy from the full-on attack of neo-liberalism. It doesn't mean we're all social democrats, but this is all that's left now of socialism and it's under attack. They know we're weak and divided and they want to act now because they think they'll be able to do it without causing too much fuss from the left. They will not stop until all services are privatized and all political movements that aren't co-opted or controlled by capital are destroyed. They will go after the trade unions and the right to fund a political party via collective working class action, regardless of anything Milibean does, and with it the era of working class representation in parliament will die with it. This is new and uncharted territory and old theories won't help us here.

apologies for shit spelling and grammar etc it's late I'm tired


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## DownwardDog (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> There was that film where the guy thinks that he is a reincarnation of trotsky wasn't there? I've never seen it though.


 
"The Trotsky"

It's pretty good. The guy is very good at potraying the very annoying sanctimonious bore that the real life LT almost certainly was.


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## DownwardDog (Apr 16, 2012)

elbows said:


> I'd be more interested in a sitcom that took place in a fictitious country that was working under a different and more desirable system. The sitcom could demonstrate the ways in which peoples lives were better as a result.
> 
> This has plenty of potential, of either messing it up real bad and making a mockery of interesting ideas, or of dying in a freak accident should the series capture the popular imagination.


 






Cancelled on the orders of Thatcher in 1986. Eight episodes that shook the world.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> A sitcom about the SWP or the SP could be very funny, whereas you wouldn't even need a good scriptwriter for one about the sparts or posadists - in fact a documentary about the sparts or posadists would be hilarious.Whereas a documentary about the SP or SWP might make you cringe but it wouldn't be all that funny.
> 
> Now that's a post I never thought I'd type out


 

Not a sitcom but check out Trevor Griffiths' The Party. A play from the early 70s but it was filmed by the BBC in the late 80s/early 90s. When it debuted in the theatre Laurence Olivier played Gerry Healey  Jock Tagg . . . I kid you not.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

By the way has anyone seen this?

http://en.internationalism.org/ir/94_parasitism  



*



			3)
		
Click to expand...

*


> Individualism can also derive from petty bourgeois influences, or from directly bourgeois ones. From the ruling class it takes up the official ideology which sees individuals as the subject of history, which glorifies the “self-made man” and justifies the “struggle of each against all”. However, it is above all through the vehicle of the petty bourgeoisie that it penetrates into the organisations of the proletariat, particularly through newly proletarianised elements coming from strata like the peasantry and the artisans (this was notably the case last century) or from the intellectual and student milieu (this has been especially true since the historic resurgence of the working class at the end of the 60s). Individualism expresses itself mainly through the tendency :
> 
> to see the organisation not as a collective whole but as a sum of individuals in which relations between persons take precedence over political and statutory relations;
> to advance one’s own “desires” and “interests” as opposed to the needs of the organisation;
> ...


 
*



			8)
		
Click to expand...

*


> The phenomenon of political parasitism, which to a large extent is also the result of the penetration of alien ideologies into the working class, has not been accorded, within the history of the workers’ movement, the same amount of attention as other phenomena such as opportunism. This has been the case because parasitism has only significantly affected proletarian organisations in very specific moments in history. Opportunism, for example, constitutes a constant menace for proletarian organisations and it expresses itself above all when the latter are going through their greatest phases of development. By contrast, parasitism does not basically manifest itself at the time of the most important movements of the class. On the contrary, it is in a period of immaturity of the movement when the organisations of the class still have a weak impact and not very strong traditions that parasitism finds its most fertile soil. This is linked to the very nature of parasitism, which, to be effective, has to relate to elements looking for class positions but who find it hard to distinguish real revolutionary organisations from currents whose only reason for existing is to live at the expense of the former, to sabotage their activities, indeed to destroy them. At the same time, the phenomenon of parasitism, again by its nature, does not appear at the very beginning of the development of the organisations of the class but when they have already been constituted and have proved that they really defend proletarian interests. These are indeed the elements which we find in the first historic manifestation of political parasitism, the Alliance of Socialist Democracy, which sought to sabotage the combat of the IWA and to destroy it.


 
*



			10)
		
Click to expand...

*


> To the extent that the workers’ movement, in the shape of the IWA, possesses a rich experience of struggle against parasitism, it is of the utmost importance, if we are to face up to the present-day parasitic offensives and arm ourselves against them, to recall the principal lessons of this past struggle. These lessons concern a whole series of aspects:
> 
> the moment of parasitism’s appearance;
> its specificities with regard to other dangers facing proletarian organisations;
> ...


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

*



			21)
		
Click to expand...

*


> This being said, even if parasitic currents are often led by declassed adventurers (when not by direct state agents), they do not only recruit in this category. We can also find there elements who at the outset are animated by a revolutionary will and who don’t set out to destroy the organisation but who:
> 
> impregnated by petty bourgeois ideology, impatient, individualist, elitist, preferring affinity relations to political relations;
> “disappointed” by the working class which doesn’t move ahead quickly enough for them;
> ...


 
oh my god do real people actually talk like this in real life?  "proletarian milieu" lol!





> [8]





> In response to the ICC’s analyses and concerns over parasitism, we are often told that the phenomenon only concerns our own organisation, whether as a target or as a “supplier”, through splits, of the parasitic milieu. It is true that today, the ICC is parasitism’s main target, which is explained easily enough by the fact that it is the largest and most widespread organisation of the proletarian movement. It consequently provokes the greatest hatred from the enemies of this movement, which never miss an occasion to stir up hostility towards it on the part of other proletarian organisations. Another reason for this “privilege” of the ICC is the fact precisely that our organisation has suffered the most splits leading to the creation of parasitic groups. We can suggest several explanations for this phenomenon.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

Oh god thats beyond satire. How exactly are you supposed to take the piss out of _that?_


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

> Firstly, of all the organisations of the proletarian political milieu which have survived the 30 years since 1968, the ICC is the only new one, since all the others already existed at the time. Consequently, our organisation suffered from a greater weight of the circle spirit, which is the breeding ground for clans and parasitism. Moreover, the other organisations had already undergone a “natural selection” before the class’ historic resurgence, which had eliminated all the adventurers, semi-adventurers, and intellectuals in search of an audience, who lacked the patience to undertake an obscure labour in little organisations with a negligible impact on the working class. At the moment of the proletarian resurgence, this kind of element judged it easier to “rise” in a new organisation in the process of formation, than in an older organisation where the “places were already taken”.


 
what does this mean lol?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> Not a sitcom but check out Trevor Griffiths' The Party. A play from the early 70s but it was filmed by the BBC in the late 80s/early 90s. When it debuted in the theatre Laurence Olivier played Gerry Healey  Jock Tagg . . . I kid you not.


 
Yeah Trevor Griffith's "The Party" is meant to be really good, it's meant to be about the various splits that took place in the trot movement in the 1950's and 60's, the era of the The Club which I was interested in writing about.

Didn't Chris Mullin write a book about something like that too? Can't find it, maybe I'm mistaken.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

> [10]





> “_At the outset, ideological decomposition obviously affects the capitalist class first and foremost, and then the petty-bourgeois strata which have no real autonomy. We can even say that the latter identify particularly well with decomposition, in that their own situation, their lack of any future, matches the major cause of ideological decomposition: the absence of any perspective in the immediate for society as a whole. Only the proletariat bears within itself a perspective for humanity, and in this sense it also has the greatest capacity for resistance to this decomposition. However, it is not completely spared, notably because it rubs shoulders with the petty-bourgeoisie which is decomposition’s principle vehicle. The different elements which constitute the strength of the proletariat directly confront the various facets of this ideological decomposition:_




wtf


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

there's loads of stuff from there attacking other groups,most of it utterly barking


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

What makes me laugh is that Libcom slags off all the trot groups but actually gives these nutjobs the time of day


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## barney_pig (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Who are socialist fight? There is some mental guy on my facebook who thinks that Russia and all other eastern block countries are still all somehow stalinist. He wrote a blog entry where he actually criticised me among other wordy polemics for "accommodating to liberal bourgeois nationalism" for being a fan of England on facebook!


When I was a member in southampton, we got an order in party notes saying that comrades who did not attend branch meetings which were taking place during England world cup games would be expelled. I think this was a SWP 'joke', hut it was read out at branch with all seriousness.


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## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.

If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.

Anarchist Federation
Alliance for Green Socialism
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Autonmous Class War
Class War
Communist Corresponding Society
Communist Party of Britain
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committe)
Communist Party of Britain-Marxist Leninist
Communist Party of Great Britain-Marxist Leninist
Communist Workers Organisation
Communist Action
Communist League (The Militant)
Communist League/Movement for a Socialist Future
Communist League of Great Britain
Counterfire
The Commune
Economic and Philosophic Science Review (International Leninist Workers Party )
Green Anarchist
International Bolshevik Tendency
International Communist Current
International Communist Party - Communist Left
International Communist Party - Internationalist Papers
International Communist Party / Socialist Equality Party
International Communist League (Fourth International) / Spartacist League
International Communist Tendency (ex IBRP)
International Socialist Group / Socialist Resistance
International Socialist Group – Bamberyite
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
Industrial Workers of the World
Liberty and Solidarity
Maoist Internationalist Movement
New Communist Party
Proletarian Democracy
Peace and Progress Party
Permanent Revolution
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Democratic Group
Revolutionary Internationalist League
Revolutionary Internationalist Movement
Revolutionary Workers Party
Respect
RCPGB-ML
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Socialist Fight
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Workers Party
Socialist Party
SPGB - Socialist Standard
SPGB - Socialist Studies
Solidarity - Sheridanites
Solidarity - Solidarity paper
Socialist League
SolFed
TUSC
United Socialist Party
Workers Action
Workers Power
WRP (Newsline)
WRP (Workers Press) / Movement for Socialism / Reclaim the Future
WRP (WIRFI)
Workers Internationalist League
Workers Fight
World in Common


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## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Some of us have fond memories of Workers Power though they were a pale shadow of themselves from their heyday with the Revo Boards
I think the rot set in before the PR split when when they expelled the external faction of WP from their Revo Boards following their polemic against Workers Power's campaign to send an International brigade to Iraq , the debacle at the G8 demo at Gleneagles when a Spar shop was looted , the issue of Australians in Acton and whether tattoo removal on the NHS  should be in the Revo election manifesto.

Neither WP or Permanent Revolution really never recovered from the flurry of letters in the Weekly Worker that followed or the Revolution Betrothed polemic that set out a new political landscape.

The external faction of Workers Power later set up the very successful Skateboarders Against the War .


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## killer b (Apr 16, 2012)

i love this thread. makes me a bit sad i wasted my youth on cider & drugs, when i could have been working towards a tiny revolution.


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## Jean-Luc (Apr 16, 2012)

A sitcom, why not? The obvious title would be "Carry On Recruiting" (I don't claim originality for this). But, seriously, what's also needed is a political/sociological study into the continuing appeal of "Trotskyism". Normally this should have died out with the demise of the USSR twenty years but for some reason it hasn't. Why?

As far as I can see the two basic principles shared by all Trotskyist groups are: (1) the idea of a vanguard party of super-activists to lead workers in their struggles, and (2) "transitional demands" as demands to attract a following but which the vanguard knows can't be achieved, the theory being that in struggling for these demands workers will learn that they can't be achieved and so turn to the vanguard for leadership against capitalism itself.

I don't think most members of Trotskyist organisations are really as cynical as (2) suggests. I get the impression from the members of SPEW and the SWP I've met (not those of the cults) that they really believe that the demands can be achieved under capitalism and are sincerely struggling to try to achieve them. This is understandable enough as there's plenty to protest about and struggle against under capitalism. But why does this common-or-garden reformism or basic trade-unionism have to be attached to Trotskyist ideology (particularly defence of the Bolshevik revolution)?  And where does the vanguard party come in? Obviously some organisation and centralisation is required for any struggle, but why to the degree proposed by Trotskyist theory, especially as (as has been pointed out here) the struggle between rival vanguards prevents the struggle for reforms (or, rather, these days against them being whittled away) being as effective as they might be through neglecting the old trade-union principle that "unity is strength"?


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 16, 2012)

killer b said:


> i love this thread. makes me a bit sad i wasted my youth on cider & drugs, when i could have been working towards a tiny revolution.


 
I think WP once expressed concern about drug-taking among their younger members/cadre.


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## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> I think WP once expressed concern about drug-taking among their younger members/cadre.


 
There was a poster in WP on here who went on some demonstration and got arrested for possession of E's. I think their general line was take drugs but remember you have a paper sale in the morning at the Hands off Iran meeting and that should come first.


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> There was a poster in WP on here who went on some demonstration and got arrested for possession of E's.


 
Was it that Cockney Rebel?


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I think their general line was take drugs


 
Makes it sound like it's compulsory. Possibly _necessary_, though.


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## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Was it that Cockney Rebel?


 
No , although coming to a party dressed as a pirate with mushroom soup or something  in his mouth must been influenced by something. Think it was Balbie  who had problems.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango - there's the "communist corresponding society" as well - they all LOOK like they're trying to look like marx


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## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> A sitcom, why not? The obvious title would be "Carry On Recruiting" (I don't claim originality for this). But, seriously, what's also needed is a political/sociological study into the continuing appeal of "Trotskyism". Normally this should have died out with the demise of the USSR twenty years but for some reason it hasn't. Why?
> 
> As far as I can see the two basic principles shared by all Trotskyist groups are: (1) the idea of a vanguard party of super-activists to lead workers in their struggles, and (2) "transitional demands" as demands to attract a following but which the vanguard knows can't be achieved, the theory being that in struggling for these demands workers will learn that they can't be achieved and so turn to the vanguard for leadership against capitalism itself.
> 
> I don't think most members of Trotskyist organisations are really as cynical as (2) suggests. I get the impression from the members of SPEW and the SWP I've met (not those of the cults) that they really believe that the demands can be achieved under capitalism and are sincerely struggling to try to achieve them. This is understandable enough as there's plenty to protest about and struggle against under capitalism. But why does this common-or-garden reformism or basic trade-unionism have to be attached to Trotskyist ideology (particularly defence of the Bolshevik revolution)? And where does the vanguard party come in? Obviously some organisation and centralisation is required for any struggle, but why to the degree proposed by Trotskyist theory, especially as (as has been pointed out here) the struggle between rival vanguards prevents the struggle for reforms (or, rather, these days against them being whittled away) being as effective as they might be through neglecting the old trade-union principle that "unity is strength"?


Most members of trotskyist organisations aren't trotskyists. Most members of trotskyists organisations don't even know what trotskyism is. There clearly is an _individual _psychology of trotskyism but not a collective one. There's a psychology of group defence that can develop out of the mixing of these two though, and that's what we see in the worst sorts.


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## love detective (Apr 16, 2012)

the left


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## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> chilango - there's the "communist corresponding society" as well - they all LOOK like they're trying to look like marx


 
Ta. Added.


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## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Pre revolutionary situation


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## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> As far as I can see the two basic principles shared by all Trotskyist groups are: (1) the idea of a vanguard party of super-activists to lead workers in their struggles, and (2) "transitional demands" as demands to attract a following but which the vanguard knows can't be achieved, the theory being that in struggling for these demands workers will learn that they can't be achieved and so turn to the vanguard for leadership against capitalism itself.


 
Well nothing about 1 is specifically Trotskyist - it's general Leninism.  And the SWP - at times at least - have rejected the idea of the transitional programme and argued for minimum (ie. for working in broad united fronts) and maximum (what the party really thinks) programmes instead. Though do they claim to be Trotskyist (as opposed to standing in the tradition of Trotsky or some such)?

More important - is the belief in revolutionary internationalism and permanent revolution - based on an understanding of combined and uneven development?


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## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

The first of those 'more important' tenets is rejected by every single trotskyist organisation globally.


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## elfman (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.
> 
> If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.
> 
> ...


 
Just a couple of things on this.

Class War don't actually exist as an organistion anymore iirc. They've tried restarting a few times but I wouldn't say they they deserve to be on this.

For IWW, although I understand why you put them on here, they are an officially registered union that has members of L&S, AFed, Solfed, Alliance for Workers Liberty, Green Party and Labour Party (The ones I encountered from the last 3 were paper members though and there maybe some from the Commune as I've seen stuff about IWW in there before).

Left List/Left Alternative aren't around anymore since TUSC has come along afaik. So maybe replace them with TUSC.

What are the difference between the numerous WRP and SPGB groups?

International Maoist Group? Really? I thought the Maoist groups died out in the 80s.


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## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The first of those 'more important' tenets is rejected by every single trotskyist organisation globally.


how so?


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## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> how so?


What do you mean how so? By siding with smaller states in their struggles with larger states  rather than with the (international) w/c against both/all states. I'm not going to bother arguing if this is the correct thing to do (it's not), but it sure as hell isn't  revolutionary internationalism. You're thinking of the belief in the necessity of international revolution - different thing.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> On the sitcom thing, it has to be a spart an SP member and an SWP member end up sharing a house with a normal person not interested in politics with hilarious results. Hmm, I'm wondering if there should be a tory in there somewhere as well? No better a Lib dem! Yeah the normal one has a friend/relative/partner who is a lib dem and only turns up occasionally.


 
The Tory would be their landlord - and played by Alexei Sayle.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

DownwardDog said:


> Cancelled on the orders of Thatcher in 1986. Eight episodes that shook the world.


 
Really? I remember the pilot - it was probably cancelled on the grounds that it wasn't very good.


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## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

elfman said:


> Just a couple of things on this.
> Class War don't actually exist as an organistion anymore iirc. They've tried restarting a few times but I wouldn't say they they deserve to be on this.


 
I know, but they're still, imo, a distinct tendency with quite a bit of brand identity.



> For IWW, although I understand why you put them on here, they are an officially registered union that has members of L&S, AFed, Solfed, Alliance for Workers Liberty, Green Party and Labour Party (The ones I encountered from the last 3 were paper members though and there maybe some from the Commune as I've seen stuff about IWW in there before).


 
Yeah. I was unsure about adding the IWW, but again, they are the organisational form of a distinct tendency, albeit one with a fair bit of cross over.



> Left List/Left Alternative aren't around anymore since TUSC has come along afaik. So maybe replace them with TUSC.


 
Good point.



> What are the difference between the numerous WRP and SPGB groups?


 
Dunno really to be honest.



> International Maoist Group? Really? I thought the Maoist groups died out in the 80s.


The MIM and the RIM are both US based groups really, but you (very) occasionally see their papers in the UK. Quite a collectors item for afficionados!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

elfman said:


> Just a couple of things on this.
> 
> Class War don't actually exist as an organistion anymore iirc. They've tried restarting a few times but I wouldn't say they they deserve to be on this.
> 
> ...


 
Good work Chilango - just a few points;

The Red Party mostly went into Classwar and the commune.

The Economic and Philosophical Review is actually the International Leninist workers Party and may be defunct since Royston Vasey died


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> What do you mean how so? By siding with smaller states in their struggles with larger states rather than with the (international) w/c against both/all states. I'm not going to bother arguing if this is the correct thing to do (it's not), but it sure as hell isn't revolutionary internationalism. You're thinking of the belief in the necessity of international revolution - different thing.


 
That's a tendentious account - Leninists wouldn't see any contradiction between revolutionary internationalism and the right to national self-determination.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> may be defunct since Royston Vasey died


Chubby Brown?  League of Gentlemen?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> That's a tendentious account - Leninists wouldn't see any contradiction between revolutionary internationalism and the right to national self-determination.


You've - for the second time - confused two entirely different arguments and debates. Revolutionary internationalism is not the debate about the right to self-determination. And these are both different from the necessity for international revolution.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Good work Chilango - just a few points;
> 
> The Red Party mostly went into Classwar and the commune.
> 
> The Economic and Philosophical Review is actually the International Leninist workers Party and may be defunct since Royston Vasey died


 
Somebody is still producing the EPSR  - the latest issue is from this February.

I'll delete the Red Party.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> There was a poster in WP on here who went on some demonstration and got arrested for possession of E's. I think their general line was take drugs but remember you have a paper sale in the morning at the Hands off Iran meeting and that should come first.


 
Memories are flooding back now




> It's not sarcastic its a fact . RedHippy, one of your ex members went on the world wide web asking for support beacuse he had got arrested on some political action and in his drug addled state forgot he a had a tab of E on him. A fact which somewhat undermined his claim to political martyrdom.
> 
> Never saw James Connoly be arrested for drunk and disorderly or for being in an opium den.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Exclusive correspondence that shows how the CPGB advised the external faction of Workers Power




> On 13/03/07, office@cpgb.org.uk <office@cpgb.org.uk> wrote:
> Johnny
> 
> Thanks for your letter. I have passed it on to the Weekly Worker editor and
> ...


 



> Dear Mark;
> 
> Thank you for your reply and advice which is most welcome. I too have had some doubts about where next as this has been a demoralising affair and has brought the worst out of some of the ex comrades in the '5th International'.You are right aboyut describing them as 'increasing;ly eccentric' .You can imagine our surpise and dismay that we recieved news of our expulsion and banning by text message. Over the next weeks we will be discusiing which way forward and I was encouraged to read in your paper about the Sheffield Communist students .
> 
> ...


 




> A conference can be a good idea for a new organisation providing sufficient
> work of clarification has been undertaken beforehand. Of course, you can
> never tell. Lenin and the Russian party expended huge energy in theoretical
> work prior to the 1903 congress - only to split when it rolled around.
> ...


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Revolutionary internationalism is not the debate about the right to self-determination.


 Is a revolutionary nationalism a) possible, and b) automatically contrary to revolutionary internationalism?


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Socialist Organiser



Changed their name to the already listed AWL



> Solidarity


Long since kaput. The CWO are the only Bordigaists now, I think


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

isn't green anarchist more like a fash entryist group to anarchism rather than anarchists themselves, with the involvement of troy southgate etc?

there was some guy on revleft who was both a trot and a fascist, he had convinced himself that trotskyism and socialism was the best way to secure the future for the white race or some bullshit


----------



## Jean-Luc (Apr 16, 2012)

elfman said:


> What are the difference between the numerous WRP and SPGB groups?


Don't know about WRP but here's about the SPGB.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

belboid said:


> Changed their name to the already listed AWL
> 
> Long since kaput. The CWO are the only Bordigaists now, I think


I think he means the union group/mag solidarity (not the BNP one) and not the long dead _non-bordiguist_ Solidarity. The CWO are similarly also non-bordiguists.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

> Over time, the group veered towards a fundamentalist position whereby the Party’s historic distinction between opposing all reformism (the political advocacy of reform measures designed to win support), rather than all proposed individual reforms per se, became completely blurred. Indeed, echoing the  1910-11 controversy, the group was later to explicitly state that socialist MPs in parliament should even vote against reform measures that are in the interests of the working class (Socialist Studies, 43).


 
what the fuck?????


----------



## love detective (Apr 16, 2012)

thing is that's what most of the public think about the left in general when they hear them drone on about stuff


----------



## JimW (Apr 16, 2012)

Were the Strassers Trots?


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think he means the union group/mag solidarity (not the BNP one) and not the long dead _non-bordiguist_ Solidarity. The CWO are similarly also non-bordiguists.


aah, okay, I'll accept that one.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

belboid said:


> Changed their name to the already listed AWL
> 
> Long since kaput. The CWO are the only Bordigaists now, I think


 
Oops. I missed the Soggies double entry. 

As for Solidarity I actually meant the Scottish lot...


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> So has anyone got any more funny stories from the world of obscure left-wing politics they could add to this thread? There must be loads of them.


About thirty years ago some SWP students in Hull were living near a new Iceland store (or something similar) which was due to have an opening ceremony. They heard a loudspeaker announcement that Shirley Williams was due to open it, so they jumped out of bed and ran down the road with their banner to protest about the rightist splitter. They were a bit disappointed when Charlie Williams turned up.


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Don't know about WRP but here's about the SPGB.


"Tony Turner was one of the Party’s most effective – indeed, many who heard him (both inside and outside the Party) claimed he was the finest outdoor orator of the twentieth century."

but an indoor irritator?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Exclusive correspondence that shows how the CPGB advised the external faction of Workers Power


 
I refuse to believe people actually put 'with communist greetings' at the end of their letters. 

Then you've got this bit:




> So, personally, I would not rush to try and commit to a full conference
> just yet.


 
...which is further proof that the whole thing is an elaborate work of satire.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> isn't green anarchist more like a fash entryist group to anarchism rather than anarchists themselves, with the involvement of troy southgate etc?
> 
> there was some guy on revleft who was both a trot and a fascist, he had convinced himself that trotskyism and socialism was the best way to secure the future for the white race or some bullshit


 
Nah. Green Anarchist, though more than a little distasteful at times were never fash. One of it's founding editors, Richard Hunt iirc, later left and set up a mag called Alternative Green, which did provide a platform for fash on the fringes of the green movement.

Green Anarchist later split, and for a time there were two rival publications of the same name.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

"A visit to Planet ICC" was a cracking insight into the barminess, documenting a spiralling spat between the ICC and Subversion. Can't find it online sadly.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Fifth International is so 90s.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Chubby Brown? League of Gentlemen?


 
Royston Bull actually.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Fifth International is so 90s.


that cant be real can it?


----------



## love detective (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> ...which is further proof that the whole thing is an elaborate work of satire.


 
just goes to show how fucked up the left is that what you attributed as satire was the actual genuine non-satirical reply to a satirical letter


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

love detective said:


> just goes to show how fucked up the left is that what you attributed as satire was the actual genuine non-satirical reply to a satirical letter


 
Hold on a minute, which one was supposed to be a piss take? I find it hard to believe any of these people are serious tbh.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

For clarity there are two International Communist Parties in the UK.

One is "more widely" known as the Socialist Equality Party, a Yorkshire based fragment of the WRP, the other is the inheritor of the Bordigist tradition and is linked to the Italian party of the same name an apparently publishes something called "Communist Left".

I've never encountered the latter group however.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

Thought Socialist Equality Party had rebranded as "A world to win":
http://www.aworldtowin.net/about.html

Or is that a split?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> For clarity there are two International Communist Parties in the UK.
> 
> One is "more widely" known as the Socialist Equality Party, a Yorkshire based fragment of the WRP, the other is the inheritor of the Bordigist tradition and is linked to the Italian party of the same name an apparently publishes something called "Communist Left".
> 
> I've never encountered the latter group however.


Three - another Bordiguist ICP which publishes Internationalist Papers, they used to have a member in liverpool (as did the Communist Left ICP) - not sure if they have any today.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Don't know about WRP but here's about the SPGB.


The SPGB split in about 1990/1. The people who left formed a kind of provisional SPGB, often described as the Ashbourne Court group, which upheld the basis positions of the organisation. I think the issue was that the party had welcomed the collapse of stalinism in the "soviet" bloc, which the minority saw as supporting the political groups leading the overthrow. Since the SPGB is supposed to be hostile to all parties except themselves (and their co-thinkers abroad, obviously) that amounted to a betrayal. I think there was a secondary issue (which actually makes some difference in the real world) - the party had started describing themselves as the Socialist Party (omitting the GB) in attempt to seem more attractive. The minority saw this as some betrayal of principle too. Hence why the formerly-Militant SP missed out on the electoral registration.

Since then the SPGB (Socialist Standard) has drifted further away from their declaration of principles. In particular, newer members don't seem to understand that they are supposed to be in favour of utilising the existing state machinery for the transition to socialism


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Thought Socialist Equality Party had rebranded as "A world to win":
> http://www.aworldtowin.net/about.html
> 
> Or is that a split?


 
They are the re=branded "Communist League" splinter of the WRP. the Movement for a Socialist Future. Not to be confused with the Movement for Socialism, another WRP splinter, this time from the Workers Press faction. Some posters may have encountered them on the Liverpool Dockers' picket line touting themselves as Reclaim the Future, dressed as hippies and banging bongoes.

Hmm. Must add these to the list...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> For clarity there are two International Communist Parties in the UK.
> 
> One is "more widely" known as the Socialist Equality Party, a Yorkshire based fragment of the WRP, the other is the inheritor of the Bordigist tradition and is linked to the Italian party of the same name an apparently publishes something called "Communist Left".
> 
> I've never encountered the latter group however.


 
Every time someone tries to clarify the situation I just get more confused.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Thought Socialist Equality Party had rebranded as "A world to win":
> http://www.aworldtowin.net/about.html
> 
> Or is that a split?


SEP are the World Socialist Website. A World to Win are the group formerly known iirc as the Communist League (but not the Pathfinder Press version) who split from Vanessa Redgrave's Marxist Party (of which Gerry Healy was a member at the time of his death). The CL was the group that published the fascinating biography of Healy with the forward by Ken Livingstone and the pullout guide to dialectics


----------



## Jean-Luc (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Fifth International is so 90s.


 
Looks more like the Seventh International to me. This sort of logo (used on occasion by all Trotskyist groups) neatly reflects the state of the productive forces in Russia at the time of the Bolshevik revolution: factory workers worked with hammers and peasants with sickles.

Mind you this one's not much better (they already had combined harvesters in America at that time):






There's an anectdote about an SLP member called Hammer who called his son Armand


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

I think I gave up many years ago when I found out that the Communist Party of Britain and the Communist Party of Great Britain were two different organisations.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Thought Socialist Equality Party had rebranded as "A world to win":
> http://www.aworldtowin.net/about.html
> 
> Or is that a split?


 
However, don't get confused with "A World to Win" the publication of the aforementioned Maoists of the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Looks more like the Seventh International to me.


 
Indeed. It is.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> SEP are the World Socialist Website. A World to Win are the group formerly known iirc as the Communist League (but not the Pathfinder Press version) who split from Vanessa Redgrave's Marxist Party (of which Gerry Healy was a member at the time of his death). The CL was the group that published the fascinating biography of Healy with the forward by Ken Livingstone and the pullout guide to dialectics


 
SEP are fucking dodgy. They are always going on about never to join unions, perhaps because they're owned by an extremely anti-union owner of a publishing firm.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

Sectology is a complicated science


----------



## elfman (Apr 16, 2012)

Please, please. This has to stop. I'm so confused now. I thought I was a Trotspotter but there even more irrelevant sects than I thought. Just when you thought the 'left' couldn't get any more depressingly shit...


----------



## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

> I think I gave up many years ago when I found out that the Communist Party of Britain and the Communist Party of Great Britain were two different organisations.


 
I still struggle to remember which one is Morning Star and which one is Weekly Worker.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.
> 
> If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.
> 
> ...


 
the updated list...


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> I still struggle to remember which one is Morning Star and which one is Weekly Worker.


 
Amateur.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

What is that New Internationalist magazine that they tend to sell at amnesty international events and the like all about? Are they trots?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> What is that New Internationalist magazine that they tend to sell at amnesty international events and the like all about? Are they trots?


 
Nah. Liberals.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

At a rough count there are about 65 organizations on that list. I wonder hoe many have more than 65 members?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Looks more like the Seventh International to me. This sort of logo (used on occasion by all Trotskyist groups) neatly reflects the state of the productive forces in Russia at the time of the Bolshevik revolution: factory workers worked with hammers and peasants with sickles.
> 
> Mind you this one's not much better (they already had combined harvesters in America at that time):
> 
> ...


 
That SLP one is an allusion to the logo of the First International


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> the updated list...


 
Jesus H. Marx


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> At a rough count there are about 65 organizations on that list. I wonder hoe many have more than 65 members?


This is the power of democratic centralism, vanguardism and one party being able to see further than the mass of workers in practice. _The theory works_.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Amateur.


Is that meant to be an insult?


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> the updated list...


what about International Communist Union/Workers' Struggle?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> At a rough count there are about 65 organizations on that list. I wonder hoe many have more than 65 members?


 
I wonder how many have more than 5.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Don't know about WRP but here's about the SPGB.


 
Surely the only WRP now is the group that still produces Newsline. I suppose the other side of the split still exists in some form - or forms - but it isn't easy to spot.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> For clarity there are two International Communist Parties in the UK.
> 
> One is "more widely" known as the Socialist Equality Party, a Yorkshire based fragment of the WRP, the other is the inheritor of the Bordigist tradition and is linked to the Italian party of the same name an apparently publishes something called "Communist Left".
> 
> I've never encountered the latter group however.


 
Is Barbara Slaughter still alive?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

If only these people had some sort of figurehead to keep everyone on message and do away with whingeing troublemakers. A sort of kindly uncle figure perhaps. With a moustache.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> This is the power of democratic centralism, vanguardism and one party being able to see further than the mass of workers in practice. _The theory works_.


A number of anarchist organisations on the list as well.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> what about International Communist Union/Workers' Struggle?


 
Workers Fight in the UK I think...they're on the list don't worry!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> If only these people had some sort of figurehead to keep everyone on message and do away with whingeing troublemakers. A sort of kindly uncle figure perhaps. With a moustache.


 






Take your pick.

eta: if anyone _does_ get round to making that far-left sitcom talked about, then it would be a travesty to not have the C Bros involved somehow.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> A number of anarchist organisations on the list as well.


None of whom argue for the power of democratic centralism, vanguardism and one party being able to see further than the mass of workers in practice.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Is that meant to be an insult?


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Workers Fight in the UK I think...they're on the list don't worry!


Oh right - Workers' Struggle is the publication of Workers Fight


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Take your pick.


 
One of them is actually a communist if memory serves me right!


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> what about International Communist Union/Workers' Struggle?


 
Aren't they the British supporters of Lutte Ouvriere? I thought they translated it as Workers' Fight though. If its the same group I'm thinking of, they used to insist on producing all their publications on duplicators and stencils in case of any power cut (hopefully caused by a power station strike etc). This meant that their stuff was much more difficult to read. Do they still do that?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> None of whom argue for the power of democratic centralism, vanguardism and one party being able to see further than the mass of workers in practice.


Fair enough.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> One of them is actually a communist if memory serves me right!


 
Seriously? Life is even better than I thought. Awesome.


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> One of them is actually a communist if memory serves me right!


mmm, no.  Barry is a right tory cunt


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Seriously? Life is even better than I thought. Awesome.


 
It sounds as likely as Benny Hill supporting the Australian Communist Party


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2012)

belboid said:


> mmm, no. Barry is a right tory cunt


 
depressing fact of the day


----------



## Idaho (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm sure some regional angling organisations are more coherantly structured and have more political clout than most of the leftist groups put together.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


>


 
The chuckle brothers. Or, as they're now known, the Marxist Neo-Trotskyist Workers Power Chuckle Alliance and his mortal enemy the Trotskyist Neo-Leninist Chuckle Power Workers Unity Coalition.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Seriously? Life is even better than I thought. Awesome.


 
It's what I heard.

Then again, I also heard a rumour that back in the 70s Thora Hird was a flag carrier at a British Movement demo, so I can't really trust my sources!


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> Aren't they the British supporters of Lutte Ouvriere? I thought they translated it as Workers' Fight though. If its the same group I'm thinking of, they used to insist on producing all their publications on duplicators and stencils in case of any power cut (hopefully caused by a power station strike etc). This meant that their stuff was much more difficult to read. Do they still do that?


 
I think they still prize their DIY ethic.  I think they do try to "implant" their comrades in particular industries.  So who knows, their 30 members might be able to cripple NPower or something?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Nobody spotted the fake group I put in the list yet?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Nobody spotted the fake group I put in the list yet?


 
I assumed 'Socialist Unity' was a pisstake tbh.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I assumed 'Socialist Unity' was a pisstake tbh.


 


(They're not on the list)


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

_International Socialist Group – Bamberyite_


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> (They're not on the list)


 
My bad, I meant 'United Socialist Party'. Sounds about as plausible as a Damascus branch of the EDL.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> _International Socialist Group – Bamberyite_


 
Nope. They're real. Bambery's coterie up in Scotland.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Who the fuck would follow that snaggle-toothed freak?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Nobody spotted the fake group I put in the list yet?


 
Respect?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> My bad, I meant 'United Socialist Party'. Sounds about as plausible as a Damascus branch of the EDL.


 
Nope. They're real. 

http://www.tusp.org.uk/


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Who the fuck would follow that snaggle-toothed freak?


 
About 50 people so it is claimed.

http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

I wonder, what are the significant theoretical innovations of _bamberyism_, it's defining characteristics? Tbh that just looks like the scottish franchise of counterfire.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> About 50 people so it is claimed.
> 
> http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/


But you get expelled if you stay a member for more than a certain period of time


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

_Proletarian Democracy_


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder, what are the significant theoretical innovations of _bamberyism_, it's defining characteristics? Tbh that just looks like the scottish franchise of counterfire.


Sounds like "Bunburyism" from the Importance of Being Ernest.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> _Proletarian Democracy_


 
Bingo!


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> _Proletarian Democracy_


 
They'd be cool though...



http://www.proletariandemocracy.org


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

No! Im so confused now !!


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Who the fuck would follow that *snaggle-toothed freak*?


 
Never stopped Furedi picking up the acolytes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

sold - to the man in the corner


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Bingo!


 
I thought they must be the UK sister group of the Italian group of the same name


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> the updated list...


 
What about Independent Labour Publications? I'm sure they're still knocking about.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I thought they must be the UK sister group of the Italian group of the same name


 
Nah. Made 'em up.

The current mayor of Milan is an ex-member of the Italian group though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> What about Independent Labour Publications? I'm sure they're still knocking about.


bloody great stack of them somewhere i'd expect, propping people's beds up and that


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

A mate of mine just posted this on facebook. Just in case any anarchists are feeling smug!

http://www.welshicons.org.uk/news/humour/anarcho-syndicalists-cameo-video-appearance-backfires/


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

*



			Riverside
		
Click to expand...





			resident Peter Davies, proto-punk and Anarcho-syndicalist thought he was making a political point when he dressed up as Baroness Thatcher to appear in a ‘pop’ video. Little did the pint-sized poppet know that we at Welsh Icons had a camera person on set.
		
Click to expand...

*


> Within minutes the photograph was uploaded to social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter. It has even been viewed by people as far away as *Newport* and *Caerphilly*.
> Comments have included:
> “_I don’t like looking at it, but strangely, cant seem to look away_“.
> “_You know that bullet I mentioned earlier, the one I felt I had been lucky to dodge… well now I realise just exactly how lucky I’ve been. Looking good Davies, loving the pearls !!!_”
> ...


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> bloody great stack of them somewhere i'd expect, propping people's beds up and that


 
The Proletarian Gong Show says 'You're out of here!' because of that joke,


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> What about Independent Labour Publications? I'm sure they're still knocking about.


 
They are the descendents of the once-mighty Independent Labour Party. Last time I checked, they seemed to be a bloke in Leeds


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> A mate of mine just posted this on facebook. Just in case any anarchists are feeling smug!
> 
> http://www.welshicons.org.uk/news/humour/anarcho-syndicalists-cameo-video-appearance-backfires/


 
Can people from South Wales really make jokes about other people being short arses?


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> They are the descendents of the once-mighty Independent Labour Party. Last time I checked, they seemed to be a bloke in Leeds


 
There's more than 1 and probably less than 35, which makes them at least mid-table. A Sunderland of the left, if you like.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

This is the bit about the typewriter thing 

http://www.af-north.org/other pamphlets/open_letter_to_the_international.htm



> That there was thievery, burglary and assault at that time is true but we were not involved in any of it. The main perpetrators were of course the ICC, something you are understandably reluctant to dwell on. While some of your ex members in London took a typewriter with them when they left, you engaged in acts of brutality hitherto unknown in the proletarian movement. You forcibly entered ex-members homes in England, stole personal property such as stereo equipment, destroyed their telephones and personal belongings and, where you found them at home. assaulted them in the process. You even had the audacity to return to one former member’s house for a second bite of the cherry only to find that he had changed the locks. Your internationally gathered collection of thugs. nonplussed at this. were unaware that the ex-member was indeed within, prepared to defend himself against a second looting of his home. On your first successful raid on his home you stole many personal belongings. He belonged to none of the factions that left the ICC in 1981 but was ‘punished’ for his personal association with ICC dissidents.
> 
> More. you declared your intention to enact these disgraceful scenes at the homes of every comrade who had left the ICC _"the internal bulletins belong to the collectivity". _In such circumstances. fearing a repetition of such thuggish behaviour in our living rooms  it is not surprising that we in Scotland threatened that we would call the police if the burglars tried to enter our homes by force. Whatever that might have meant in political terms it is difficult to see what other threat at that time would have halted the ICC gangsters. The threat worked. The burglaries ended. No one called the police.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

You found it!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> "A visit to Planet ICC" was a cracking insight into the barminess, documenting a spiralling spat between the ICC and Subversion. Can't find it online sadly.


 


chilango said:


> You found it!


The spat was between the ICC and the Communist Bulletin group - the internal stuff was just put up on the Subversion site years later.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> The Proletarian Gong Show says 'You're out of here!' because of that joke,


 
There was a Proletarian Gob at one point...

... i think it was just one bloke and a photocopier though.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The spat was between the ICC and the Communist Bulletin group - the internal stuff was just put up on the Subversion site years later.


 
I'm sure the spat spilled over.

I have vague memories of being at Subversion meetings when the ICC came along to "intervene". Certainly the two groups were still going at it in their publications in the '90s.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> There was a Proletarian Gob at one point...
> 
> ... i think it was just one bloke and a photocopier though.


Yes, it's pete post, pete the post etc


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't get these "interventions" lol i mean what the fuck do they think that people are gonna join their sect just through one of them standing up and reading a list of denunciations, it seems like the worst way to recruit someone anyone could imagine. Don't try and sell papers in the street, or for that matter talk to anyone normal (it seems like they have been living in a basement for the last 50 years) don't try to give leaflets to anyone, don't try to campaign on anything or let alone try to take part in strikes or anti cuts stuff or direct action or anything like that that remotely affects the real world in any way, no, go along to some slightly bigger left wing group's meeting and stand up and read some weird rant and in that way you're "forging a new party" 

i mean fuck do these people have friends and family etc that aren't in these sects (or any sect at all)? do they actually have a clue what everyone else thinks, do they have jobs etc? How the fuck could you go around all day in the normal world thinking about parasites and swamps and north korea's right to nuclear weapons etc? When they meet anyone normal do they talk like that to them?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> There was a Proletarian Gob at one point...
> 
> ... i think it was just one bloke and a photocopier though.


 
From your link:



> PROLETARIAN GOB is anti-capitalist, anti-state and ant-authoritarian.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> If only these people had some sort of figurehead to keep everyone on message and do away with whingeing troublemakers. A sort of kindly uncle figure perhaps. With a moustache.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

Say what you like about the tenets of Stalinism dude, at least it was an ethos.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

BTW, did you know that "Uncle Joe" was a nickname created by a US pr firm during the war, to sell the wartime alliance with the USSR to the American public - and when Joe himself heard about it, he had a fit?


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> BTW, did you know that "Uncle Joe" was a nickname created by a US pr firm during the war, to sell the wartime alliance with the USSR to the American public - and when Joe himself heard about it, he had a fit?


and Churchill proudly said he was part of the 'troika of tea drinking nations' that would stand up against tyranny


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

USSR, UK and China. He may yet be right.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Imagine if the Sparts or something really did seize power one day lol and became the government. Could you imagine what it would be like? It would be like a new stalin. In fact it would probably be worse! You wouldn't be allowed to have any fun or anything!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> You wouldn't be allowed to have any fun or anything!


 
I thought the Sparts were big into whisky drinking and pornography? Sometimes at the same time.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

I went on a Spart demo once. Some Mumia thing. Security with red armbands.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> If Chris Morris is looking for idea's to do a follow-up to Four Lions then he'd do a lot worse than checking out this thread.


 
Just reading through the thread from last night but haven't finished it yet so I don't know if this got mentioned but Chris Morris and Kevin Eldon were at the uk uncut block the bridge NHS demo, and although I'd like them to have been there for the politics, I'm really hoping that they were there to gather material for his next film/series 

oh, and the Communist Correspondance Society are funny - I follow the birmingham group on twitter (@bhamCCS I think) and really like it.  I swear I'm going to go to one of their meetings soon, just to see what they are like in real life.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> I thought the Sparts were big into whisky drinking and pornography? Sometimes at the same time.


That's child porn whilst listening to R kelly. _Really_.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> There was a Proletarian Gob at one point...
> 
> ... i think it was just one bloke and a photocopier though.


 
There was also Proleterian (very pro Soviet union and pro-Irish republicanism) some of who later went on to found Communist Open Polemic for Revolutionary Unity and their front group the Association of Communists for Revolutionary Unity (ACRU).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> I thought the Sparts were big into whisky drinking and pornography? Sometimes at the same time.


They're certainly against the capitalist state stopping you from enjoying yourself.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> There was also Proleterian (very pro Soviet union and pro-Irish republicanism) some of who later went on to found Communist Open Polemic for Revolutionary Unity and their front group the Association of Communists for Revolutionary Unity (ACRU).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Which reminds me BICO


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Workers Fight in the UK I think...they're on the list don't worry!


 

Socialist Fight: http://suacs.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/socialist-fight-no-82.pdf

Clearly on a different planet!


They seem to have recruited one of the Workers Power lot  pre/post his expulsion

http://suacs.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/workers-power-conference-2012/


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> There was also Proleterian (very pro Soviet union and pro-Irish republicanism) some of who later went on to found Communist Open Polemic for Revolutionary Unity and their front group the Association of Communists for Revolutionary Unity (ACRU).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
I remember Proletarian. I also used to_ actually_ read Open Polemic. That's pretty sad.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Socialist Fight: http://suacs.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/socialist-fight-no-82.pdf
> 
> Clearly on a different planet!
> 
> ...


Slowly the lion rises after slumber.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That's child porn whilst listening to R kelly. _Really_.


 

Ah yes, "there's nothing wrong with a little bump and grind".

I remember a post on Indymedia Ireland which claimed that one of their senior members had been done for paedophilia, hence their peculiar stance on that question. Any truth in that one?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> There was also Proleterian (very pro Soviet union and pro-Irish republicanism) some of who later went on to found Communist Open Polemic for Revolutionary Unity and their front group the Association of Communists for Revolutionary Unity (ACRU).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
http://comopolemic.wordpress.com/


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> I remember Proletarian. I also used to_ actually_ read Open Polemic. That's pretty sad.


 
It could have been sadder...you could have written it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> I remember Proletarian. I also used to_ actually_ read Open Polemic. That's pretty sad.


I think Red Action made their head explode like a robots.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Ah yes, "there's nothing wrong with a little bump and grind".
> 
> I remember a post on Indymedia Ireland which claimed that one of their senior members had been done for paedophilia, hence their peculiar stance on that question. Any truth in that one?


Never heard that myself.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Which reminds me BICO


They don't still exist do they?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think Red Action made their head explode like a robots.


 
It was a very odd assortment.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> They don't still exist do they?


Nah, half working for unionist politicians - most 'on the inside' in one way or another.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It could have been sadder...you could have written it.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
No. I couldn't.


----------



## elbows (Apr 16, 2012)

The workers democratic network of asexual reproduction and daily fragmentation party will cure these ills by having the concept of splits built into its very fabric.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

anyone ever come across :

INTERVENTION COLLECTIVE 1977-1980
IC grew out of discussion meetings about early drafts of
'Marxism, Method and Revolution' by Ken Tarbuck
(published in 'Intervention: Contributions to Marxist
studies', no.1, Summer 1977). The group collaborated
with Socialist Charter on the journal 'Chartist' in 1980, and
in the same year ceased to exist as a separate group.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think Red Action made their head explode like a robots.


 
that didn't help but I think it was:

1. the utter inability of either the 3rd or 4th internationalists to recognise each other as part of the same project;
2. and the effort of trying to hold the ring for a number of would be vanguards;

which brought about the hardly noticed demise of OP.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.
> 
> If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.
> 
> ...


 
Scottish Socialist Party?

Plus all the Republican Socialist ones. Workers Party, Scottish Republican Socialist Movement, Irish Republican Socialist Party, Sinn Fein etc etc (?)

You did put 'UK' after all.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Scottish Socialist Party?
> 
> Plus all the Republican Socialist ones. Workers Party, Scottish Republican Socialist Movement, Irish Republican Socialist Party, Sinn Fein etc etc (?)
> 
> You did put 'UK' after all.


 
I deliberately missed them all out. But I'll do Wales for you...



Cymru Goch (defunct)
Forward Wales (defunct)
Welsh Socialist Republican Movement (defunct)


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

What about that "People's Charter" thing?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> What about that "People's Charter" thing?


 
Liberals.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Liberals.


 
weren't they some sort of front for the CPGB tho?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

Hang on, was this "People's Charter" different from "Charter 88"?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

The People's Charter has been endorsed by the following Trade Unions: RMT, CWU, FBU, PCS, NUT, NUJ, BFAWU POA (Scotland), UCU, and the TUC.[3]
The People's Charter has attracted support from various high profile politicians including Jeremy Corbyn, Tony Benn and John McDonnell, and a number of personalities from the cultural sphere including Billy Bragg, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Mark Thomas and Ken Loach.[4]
It has also been endorsed by the Labour Representation Committee[5], the Scottish Campaign for Socialism[6], the Socialist Party of England and Wales[7] and the Communist Party of Britain[8].


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

No idea but i did some anti cuts stuff with some of their members once.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Hang on, was this "People's Charter" different from "Charter 88"?


 
The remnants of Charter 88 have merged with the remnants of Democratic Left themselves a remnant of the old CPGB.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> The People's Charter has been endorsed by the following Trade Unions: RMT, CWU, FBU, PCS, NUT, NUJ, BFAWU POA (Scotland), UCU, and the TUC.[3]
> The People's Charter has attracted support from various high profile politicians including Jeremy Corbyn, Tony Benn and John McDonnell, and a number of personalities from the cultural sphere including Billy Bragg, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Mark Thomas and Ken Loach.[4]
> It has also been endorsed by the Labour Representation Committee[5], the Scottish Campaign for Socialism[6], the Socialist Party of England and Wales[7] and the Communist Party of Britain[8].


And articul8.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> The remnants of Charter 88 have merged with the remnants of Democratic Left themselves a remnant of the old CPGB.


 
Thus, the cosmic ballet continues.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Ah yes, "there's nothing wrong with a little bump and grind".
> 
> I remember a post on Indymedia Ireland which claimed that one of their senior members had been done for paedophilia, hence their peculiar stance on that question. Any truth in that one?


Given the bear garden that is the Spartacist "family" (sparts, Internationalist Group and International Bolshevik Tendency mainly) we'd have heard more of that, if true. The only thing I know of resembling this at all is the Bill Logan affair http://www.icl-fi.org/english/pamph/logan/preface.html

But they expelled Logan. I think he leads the IBT now


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

The scary thing about the sparts is that it seems to me through everything they do that they don't really care about _people_ if you know what I mean. If you read this type of literature it's worryingly devoid of emotions, humanity or any sign of giving a shit about _people_ (apart from shrill denunciations of other groups).


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> The scary thing about the sparts is that it seems to me through everything they do that they don't really care about _people_ if you know what I mean. If you read this type of literature it's worryingly devoid of emotions, humanity or any sign of giving a shit about _people_ (apart from shrill denunciations of other groups).


Your bourgeois liberal humanist concern with "people" betrays your utter servility to the running dogs of imperialism comrade


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.
> 
> If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.
> 
> ...


 
How many of these have member ship into 4 figures?

The SWP maybe.
The SP.
Perhaps the CPB.

Anyone else?

Any other groups make it into 3 figures?

The NCP? SLP? Respect? IWW?

I'm guessing all the others are double figures at best.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

The AF are in three figures.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Which reminds me BICO


 
Peter Gabriel's best moment.


----------



## dennisr (Apr 16, 2012)

100


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> Peter Gabriel's best moment.


I was tempted, but it's only monday.


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Any other groups make it into 3 figures?
> 
> The NCP? SLP? Respect? IWW?


Not the NCP.

AWL, Counterfire, ISG/SR, IWCA probably get there.  Sheridanites probly did a year or two back, probly not now


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

I think we should follow the lead of the black hand and claim glastonbury festival  as 100 000+ for the anarchists.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> How many of these have member ship into 4 figures?
> 
> The SWP maybe.
> The SP.
> ...


 
SPGB are in the three figures. (Before someone snipes, the SPGB that publishes the Socialist Standard.)


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

belboid said:


> Not the NCP.
> 
> AWL, Counterfire, ISG/SR, IWCA probably get there. Sheridanites probly did a year or two back, probly not now


 
You reckon?

I doubt any of those would make it into 3 figures (except the AWL maybe). But I could be wrong. Where's Fisher when you need him?


----------



## Idaho (Apr 16, 2012)

How many people are secretly members of more than one. Just for the meaningless thrill of it?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think we should follow the lead of the black hand and claim glastonbury festival as 100 000+ for the anarchists.


 
Don't forget the Miners' Gala.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

How many members do the IWCA have? Tbh, they're one of the only small parties I've come across that appear relatively normal. Not that I've that much experience in this area though.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

Idaho said:


> How many people are secretly members of more than one. Just for the meaningless thrill of it?


 
Think of all those unsold papers under your bed?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How many members do the IWCA have? Tbh, they're one of the only small parties I've come across that appear relatively normal. Not that I've that much experience in this area though.


 
Surely not many - nationally. they might have loads in Oxford though.


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> You reckon?
> 
> I doubt any of those would make it into 3 figures (except the AWL maybe). But I could be wrong. Where's Fisher when you need him?


Yeah.  Only just into them, I'm talking 100-150 here, nothing bigger.  But I reckon they all just about sneak through


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I was tempted, but it's only monday.


 
You preferred the Simple Minds version?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> You preferred the Simple Minds version?


Phil Silvers


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Workers Power candidate Jeremy Drinkall in the last general election:



His 109 votes  beat the Cats Protection League candidate by  13 votes but trailed the SPGB by 34.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Workers Power candidate Jeremy Drinkall in the last general election:
> 
> 
> 
> His 109 votes beat the Cats Protection League candidate by 13 votes but trailed the SPGB by 34.




Has someone done the Workers Power Downfall video yet?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think we should follow the lead of the black hand and claim glastonbury festival as 100 000+ for the anarchists.


 
It was part of the anarchist hinterland as I recall


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> It was part of the anarchist hinterland as I recall


Each tory advisor that dies in the bogs another victory in the war of the flea.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

Third pool


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Each tory advisor that dies in the bogs another victory in the war of the flea.


 
And so on ad infinitum. Was there ever an inquest on the Tory bog-man of Glasto?



Geoff Collier said:


> Given the bear garden that is the Spartacist "family" (sparts, Internationalist Group and International Bolshevik Tendency mainly) we'd have heard more of that, if true. The only thing I know of resembling this at all is the Bill Logan affair http://www.icl-fi.org/english/pamph/logan/preface.html
> 
> But they expelled Logan. I think he leads the IBT now


 

OK, roger that. So they're just talking that peculiar position out of sheer pig-headed, obstinate lunacy, then.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

> In April that year, the Internationalist Group, Liga Quarta-Internacionalista do Brasil and the Permanent Revolution Faction formed the League for the Fourth International, whose founding statement was Reforge the Fourth International (6 April 1998). In 2004, the LFI's Dutch section, consisting of only one member, left to join the International Bolshevik Tendency.[3]


 
Awesome.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

Why are the funniest things always drenched in such sadness and failure?


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Just added the Internationalist Communist Tendency to the list, they used to be the International Bureau for the Revolutionary Party.

Sweet.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Just added the Internationalist Communist Tendency to the list, they used to be the International Bureau for the Revolutionary Party.
> 
> Sweet.


Yes, the CWO's international. Good group. Potential.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Over 3000 views for a thread on Workers Power splitting...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

I think we should play a game. Put forward a made up far-left grouplet name, and see who first manages to come up with one that actually exists. My suggestion is The Left-Leninist Current.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Why are the funniest things always drenched in such sadness and failure?


Shut up.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, the CWO's international. Good group. Potential.


 
Hang on...the CWO and the ICT are the same?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Shut up.


 
Tetchy.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I think we should play a game. Put forward a made up far-left grouplet name, and see who first manages to come up with one that actually exists. My suggestion is The Left-Leninist Current.


 
You can't have Left Leninism. Doesn't work.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Over 3000 views for a thread on Workers Power splitting...


cockneyrebel would have been proud


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

The CWO are part of the ICT. The ICT is the international.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> You can't have Left Leninism. Doesn't work.


 
You are free to come up with your own.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Tetchy.


That was a laughing - not weeping - _shut up._


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The CWO are part of the ICT. The ICT is the international.


 Ah, ok.

CWO is a better name.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Ah, ok.
> 
> CWO is a better name.


Great name, great history.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You are free to come up with your own.


 
*coughs* I did.


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Over 3000 views for a thread on Workers Power splitting...


but only two about the actual split.  Gutting


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> You can't have Left Leninism. Doesn't work.


 
Why not?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

belboid said:


> but only two about the actual split. Gutting


Did yours leap?


----------



## nogojones (Apr 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Workers Power candidate Jeremy Drinkall in the last general election:
> 
> 
> 
> His 109 votes beat the Cats Protection League candidate by 13 votes but trailed the SPGB by 34.




That's a good result. Cats are very popular.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The CWO are part of the ICT. The ICT is the international.


 They publish "Aurora". that's a cool name.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> They publish "Aurora". that's a cool name.


It's a fantastic name - it only come out as one page sheet every so often though.

(*assumes everyone gets the allusion*)


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The CWO are part of the ICT. The ICT is the international.


 
However, whilst reading about them, I noticed this which made me laugh...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

The bit on the right


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It's a fantastic name - it only come out as one page sheet every so often though.
> 
> (*assumes everyone gets the allusion*)


 
nah fraid you'll have to explain sorry!


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

that's Des for ya


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That was a laughing - not weeping - _shut up._


 
That's a relief. For a second I thought you might be Dutch, and I'd hit upon a sore spot.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> nah fraid you'll have to explain sorry!


A shell from the battle ship Aurora told the people planning the storming of the winter palace to get cracking._ Do it now!_


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Isn't there a group called Workers' Dreadnought?


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

not since 1924


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Isn't there a group called Workers' Dreadnought?


Not for a long time, that was Sylvia pankhurt's org after her womans' dreadnought.

edit: as bellers has already noted.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Isn't there a group called Workers' Dreadnought?


 
Sylvia Pankhurst et al

http://libcom.org/tags/workers-dreadnought

as already noted...twice!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Oh my god I just found these guys, the Internatioal Communist Party 

http://www.international-communist-party.org/BasicTexts/WhatDist.htm


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

We've done them already. Nothing wrong with them as it goes.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

yeh actually having looked at their website they say some surprisingly sensible things, website needs a major redesign tho.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

Just get the right ICP....

The SEP version are a bit...er...well, you wouldn't want them round your house for a cup of tea. Put it that way.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

elbows said:


> The workers democratic network of asexual reproduction and daily fragmentation party will cure these ills by having the concept of splits built into its very fabric.



On Revleft you can set up user groups. There is, I shit you not, an anti-sex league group. It's not a joke and people have joined it on there and actually believe in it. It's like they've read 1984 and thought, "now there's an idea!"


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> On Revleft you can set up user groups. There is, I shit you not, an anti-sex league group. It's not a joke and people have joined it on there and actually believe in it. It's like they've read 1984 and thought, "now there's an idea!"


They'll die out or be exposed.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> They'll die out or be exposed.


 
The character Julia is basically Sonia Orwell herself, I've always thought.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't think people on here actually understand how crazy the people on revleft (and probably most of the american left) are. I did not imagine that it could be possible.

What's the proletarian milieu's justification for having the anti-sex league group then?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

http://fractioncommuniste.org/index_eng.php?SEC=bci02

These guys have to have the best name ever


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think people on here actually understand how crazy the people on revleft (and probably most of the american left) are. I did not imagine that it could be possible.
> 
> What's the proletarian milieu's justification for having the anti-sex league group then?


 
Making a virtue out of a necessity?






"Worst International ever".


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

_"to team up with anarchism, is to destroy the proletariat"_


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

> Disgust, nausea, here is what we felt at first when we read the last innovations of the opportunist ICC with regards to anarchism. Let's just judge from the titles of two of its articles published in _World Revolution _336 and in _Révolution internationale _414 : _*The communist left and internationalist anarchism: What we have in common *_; and _*Réunion CNT-AIT de Toulouse du 15 avril 2010 : vers un creuset de la réflexion internationaliste *_[Meeting of the CNT-AIT, April 15th,2010 : towards the setting up of reflection network in the internationalist Milieu]. Two titles which come - oh so much ! - verify the soundness of the warning we issued in the bulletin 48 of the Internal Fraction of the ICC : _Anarchism seeks to infiltrate the Proletarian Camp and the present ICC opens it the door_ (in French and Spanish only1).
> Disgust, nausea, but also now anger and rage ! There is no question to let without reaction, without fighting, the fatal outcome that this new step announces, fatal outcome which is on the way to be achieved "quietly". If sincere members and sympathizers of the ICC still remain and seeks to resist and save what still can be saved, it belongs to us to help them as much as we can as well as it belongs to us to save the communist honour and the political legacy of the ICC.
> We had already denounced what seemed to be dangerous skids of the present ICC towards anarchism2. It has distributed a common leaflet with two openly Anarchist groups in Mexico. But now, with its "fraternal" opening towards anarchism, the ICC initiates its break with the proletariat's camp, with marxism, with the workers movement's history, in particular with the Communist Left's one, thus with its own history ! It is an important step towards the foreseeable disappearance of this organization as a proletariat's organization which emerges through the break with its own political platform, through the loss, or worst the dissolution, of its last militant communist forces under the flood of leftist elements ; in other terms in its theoretical-political as well as militant disintegration ! Is there still time to save something from this organization ? Is there still time that members end up, finally, to react and organize consequently within it, in order to fight against the "forecast death", on the way to be realized, of the ICC as a proletariat's political organization ? Because that is where we are now ! Isn't it fraternizing openly with anarchism, current that the Communist Left has definitively categorized as counter-revolutionary and that the true ICC did not stop to denounce as a component of the extreme-Left of Capital ?


 
god imagine how the would feel if they met us lot on here!!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

it gets better 



> The betrayal comes with, some lines below, a class collaboration which is openly claimed : _"__Today, in France for example, the same name « CNT » covers two anarchist organisations, one which defends authentically revolutionary positions (CNT-AIT) and another which is purely « reformist » and reactionary (the CNT «Vignoles »)"_.
> Have these comrades of the ICC who still keep a little bit of communist reflexes, gone to have a look to the CNT-AIT web site and to its documents ? Do they know this organization carries on claiming openly to anarcho-unionism ? Self-management ["autogestion" in French and Spanish] ? The policy of the CNT during the Spanish war (thus of Federica Monseny and her owns who actively participated to the Popular Front, so fatal for our class) and the anti-fascist struggle ? Decades of political fight of the ICC against the anarchist danger are thrown through the window with no debate, with not any political confrontation... with no reluctance, nor opposition3 ?


 


> Can the comrades of the ICC who still keep some "class notions", accept that it be pronounced in their name this sentences so closed to touted leftism : _"__Communist militants are still very thin on the ground today and there is nothing more harmful than isolation. We therefore have to fight against the tendency to stand up for your own « chapel », your own « family » (whether marxist or anarchist), against the shop-keeper's spirit which has nothing to do with the politics of the working class"_. The historical struggle of marxism against the petit-bourgeois anarchist ideology is so reduced to a rivalry between shopkeepers ! We do choke with rage in front of such words !


wtf??? these guys make the ICC look sane and that's saying something!



> And to end up with this nauseating literature, "cherry on the cake" as it is said in French, if we can use this word for such leftist shit, the article _What we have in common_ concludes proclaiming loudly and brandishing its Declaration like a banner, that _"the ICC belongs to the same camp as these internationalist anarchists who really defend working class autonomy. Yes, we consider them as comrades with whom we want to debate and cooperate. Yes, we also think that these anarchist militants have more in common with the communist left than with those who, under the label of anarchism, actually defend nationalist and reformist positions and are thus really defenders of capitalism"_.


 
Wow so much fucking venom!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think people on here actually understand how crazy the people on revleft (and probably most of the american left) are. I did not imagine that it could be possible.
> 
> What's the proletarian milieu's justification for having the anti-sex league group then?



I seem to remember that the responses I got when I joined to take the piss were along these lines:

As Engels showed in the origin of the family, private property and the state, the modern nuclear family is an essentially capitalist formation, with the wife and children as the property of the father. The sexual impulse is therefore a bourgeois impulse aimed at increasing personal private property. This impulse controls our lives and is yet another tool of capitalist hegemony. 

The struggle against capitalism is therefore the struggle against the sexual impulse.  

I think they qualified that by saying that it was ok to have sex, but only if you'd risen above capitalist sexual relations. 

I'm not convinced their reading of Engels is quite what he intended. And whilst the above is their justification, I suspect Idris may be closer to the actual truth.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

"And that little boy that nobody liked grew up to be. . . Roy Cohn".


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> god imagine how the would feel if they met us lot on here!!



Never mind the politics, how do you open a door "in french and spanish only"? Is it to do with the accent the hinges squeak in?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

how do they manage? how do they get through every day in the normal world with these ideas about parasites and swamps etc in their heads?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Speaking of trivial splits, Workers Power actually had another couple of splits recently. They kicked out two people at their conference the other week who were involved in some kind of discussion process for random mentals organised by Socialist Fight. They also had a split in their Austrian section to found some new group called the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency, which apparently has a couple of British supporters. Amazing name by the way, but spoiled a bit by its relative brevity. It's the sort of name that should have at least seven words in it.


 
TBF, the fact that you can pronounce the acronym "arse it" makes up for the short name.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Never mind the politics, how do you open a door "in french and spanish only"? Is it to do with the accent the hinges squeak in?


 
_Mais oui_.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

No mention of Straight Left yet? Two of them live in Haringey, and they're still "doing" stuff.

Also Workers Socialism - council communist group mostly concentrated in North London with a few people scattered about elsewhere. Very close to Spurs Ladies (seriously).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Being "won to trotksyism" at the age of 10 sounds pretty chilling to me? how would you go about winning a 10 year old child to the transitional program? I dread to think.


 
Probably a programme of sleep deprivation, mixed in with dosing their food with mild hallucinogenics and hypnotics.

Plus the threat of feeding 'em to the paedos if they don't allow themselves to be "won to beardie".


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

actually abrir la puerta would be quite a cool name


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

Also Global Womens Strike - like a feminist RCG


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> Over 3000 views for a thread on Workers Power splitting...


 
And 17 pages of posts. Mostly by people who miss the irony that they are part of the very thing they are taking the piss out of, but will go on doing the same old, same old.

Or even worse cynical do nothings.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> And 17 pages of posts. Mostly by people who miss the irony that they are part of the very thing they are taking the piss out of, but will go on doing the same old, same old.
> 
> Or even worse cynical do nothings.


 
Lucky we have you here to cut through the crap and remind us there is a world out there!


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

I think this thread can remind you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> And 17 pages of posts. Mostly by people who miss the irony that they are part of the very thing they are taking the piss out of, but will go on doing the same old, same old.
> 
> Or even worse cynical do nothings.


 
Name names.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> I think this thread can remind you.


 
In what way??


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> I think this thread can remind you.


Of what?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

Take your pick, do a lucky dip on the thread, you'll probably come up trumps.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Take your pick, do a lucky dip on the thread, you'll probably come up trumps.


What?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

How is anyone "missing the irony" of anything, part of the whole point of this thread was to laugh at ourselves anyway!


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> In what way??


 
If this thread won't make someone come to their senses and realise they are part of some surreal alternative reality which currently makes up the left then there is probably no hope for them. Sadly, I think they will go on convincing themselves that their group, or their views, are ok, it's just all the others who are the nutters. Or convince themselves that there is some sollace in the fact that they are the least mad in one flew over the cuckoo's nest.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> How is anyone "missing the irony" of anything, part of the whole point of this thread was to laugh at ourselves anyway!


 
I guess but if people just carry on doing the same old thing, being in the same off the wall groups, then it takes the gloss off the humour. Or should do for them.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> How is anyone "missing the irony" of anything, part of the whole point of this thread was to laugh at ourselves anyway!


Ourselves?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> How is anyone "missing the irony" of anything, part of the whole point of this thread was to laugh at ourselves anyway!


 
I was laughing at you lot


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

How many people alive on the British mainland today have been through one or other of these groups (say, been a member for a minimum of 2 months)?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> How many people alive on the British mainland today have been through one or other of these groups (say, been a member for a minimum of 2 months)?


You for one.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> How many people alive on the British mainland today have been through one or other of these groups (say, been a member for a minimum of 2 months)?


 
Hardly anyone.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Ourselves?


 
Alone.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Hardly anyone.


 
You reckon?  I think SWP alone must be around 30k+?  Militant/SP say 10k?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Alone.


 
I like Soldiers of Destiny better


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Alone.


Fuck yeah!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I was laughing at you lot


 
I know lol.  I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with threads like this, in fact if you have no sense of humour on this subject and no sense of self reflection there's something dangerously wrong with you. I don't think anyone here falls into that category though.


----------



## love detective (Apr 16, 2012)

have workers power split Spanky?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> You reckon? I think SWP alone must be around 30k+? Militant/SP say 10k?


 
As I said, hardly anyone. We live in a country of about 60 million people.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> As I said, hardly anyone. We live in a country of about 60 million people.


That's right.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

I've heard estimates that say at least 150, 000+ out of all the trot, anarchist and stalinist etc groups combined, i think that might be slightly overoptimistic though.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> I know lol.  I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with threads like this, in fact if you have no sense of humour on this subject and no sense of self reflection there's something dangerously wrong with you. I don't think anyone here falls into that category though.


 
Can't see how there is much self reflection going on. I'm sure most people on here will carry on being in the same off the wall groups or standing by the side lines having a snipe. Not sure if it's worse or not if they are aware they are doing it but carry on regardless.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 16, 2012)

love detective said:


> have workers power split Spanky?


 
who?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2012)

When Victor Adler objected to Berchtold, foreign minister of Austria-Hungary, that war would provoke revolution in Russia, even if not in the Habsburg monarchy, he replied: "And who will lead this revolution? Perhaps Mr. Bronstein [Trotsky] sitting over there at the Cafe Central?"

A. J. P. Taylor, in _The Struggle for Mastery in Europe 1848-1918_ (1980)


----------



## love detective (Apr 16, 2012)

have workers power split, spanky?

(i think the moment has been lost now though)


----------



## belboid (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> If this thread won't make someone come to their senses and realise they are part of some surreal alternative reality which currently makes up the left then there is probably no hope for them. Sadly, I think they will go on convincing themselves that their group, or their views, are ok, it's just all the others who are the nutters. Or convince themselves that there is some sollace in the fact that they are the least mad in one flew over the cuckoo's nest.


uhh, have you actually seen the film?  If you had, you'd know that last sentence doesn't really make any sense.

And, not being in any miniscule grouplet actually gives some of us much more time to do some work that can actually make a difference.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> I've heard estimates that say at least 150, 000+ out of all the trot, anarchist and stalinist etc groups combined, i think that might be slightly overoptimistic though.


 
It would still be hardly anyone. Wouldn't that be 0.25% of the population? And that's anyone who has joined, ever.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> And, not being in any miniscule grouplet actually gives some of us much more time to do some work that can actually make a difference.


 
I agree, which is why I'm not in one of the 100 or so groups mentioned in this thread. Having said that it would be much better if there was a decent organisation out there that was worth joining, as I'm sure, ultimately, a collective organisation can achieve far more than an individual. As it is currently they seem to do more harm than good.

You might have got me on the cuckoo point, but you know what I was saying.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I seem to remember that the responses I got when I joined to take the piss were along these lines:
> 
> As Engels showed in the origin of the family, private property and the state, the modern nuclear family is an essentially capitalist formation, with the wife and children as the property of the father. The sexual impulse is therefore a bourgeois impulse aimed at increasing personal private property. This impulse controls our lives and is yet another tool of capitalist hegemony.
> 
> ...


Yeah cos Engels was well know for resisting his sexual impulses.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 16, 2012)

At least this gives 'Solidarnosc' the opportunity to join a new group.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

In all honesty I can only see one person on this thread who's taking themselves seriously and who thinks this shit actually matters in the grand scheme of things and, unlike that poster, I'm happy to name names, though I doubt whether I actually need to.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> In all honesty I can only see one person on this thread who's taking themselves seriously and who thinks this shit actually matters in the grand scheme of things and, unlike that poster, I'm happy to name names, though I doubt whether I actually need to.



Name names! Do it!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Name names! Do it!



Well, put it this way - it's a retail establishment that promises you won't have to stop twice.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> In all honesty I can only see one person on this thread who's taking themselves seriously and who thinks this shit actually matters in the grand scheme of things and, unlike that poster, I'm happy to name names, though I doubt whether I actually need to.


 
I think you are missing the point. If you aren't taking yourself seriously and can see the humerous side of being in a barmey sect, it's a little odd to then go on carry on doing it despite the fact that you know it's so off the wall that you could make a sit com about it.

Also if you don't think any of it matters why devote a substantial amount of time doing it? Personally I do think it matters in the sense that socialist ideas are very good ones, and it's a shame they are represented by fringe groups who your average person thinks are a bunch of nutters because of the way they go about things. It gets even worse when those groups do occassionally have some influence, such as in the anti-cuts movement, and use it to do far more harm than good. Such as what I mentioned earlier when I had to buy my work mates a drink to apologise for taking them to the NSSN anti-cuts event that turned in to some kind of circus. I'd spend ages trying to convince them to get involved, and then they were met with that experience.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

Only if you're in those groups for non-instrumental reasons - I doubt many people are these days. 

And I think you're flattering those "sects" by overestimating their influence in the anti-cuts movement. 

Also, judging by your humourless contributions on this thread, I reckon going for a pint with you probably did more to put them off than any trot conference.


----------



## KeeperofDragons (Apr 16, 2012)

Blimey I managed to read the entire thread   If the far right split as much as us on the far left Hitler would have been walkover


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

Have you looked at the BNP or the EDL lately? They do. And their microsects make the sparts look more down to earth than my grandad.


----------



## JHE (Apr 16, 2012)

KeeperofDragons said:


> Blimey I managed to read the entire thread  If the far right split as much as us on the far left Hitler would have been walkover


 
I think fringe political groups are fissiparous on the right as well as on the left.  There may be a slightly greater tendency for left-wing splits to be about - or to be expressed in term of - obscure doctrinal differences, but the most important factor is simply *size*.  If you are part of a tiny group, you have little to lose by splitting into two tiny groups.  If you are part of a large group with popular support, you have an interest in sticking together, in order to get 'a piece of the action'.  Faction fights in the Labour Party tend to remain faction fights (though sometimes entrists, like the poor old Millies, get kicked out).  Faction fights within little Trot sects tend to lead to splits.


----------



## KeeperofDragons (Apr 16, 2012)

Remember the debacle that was the RESPECT split - bloody farce that was - people who had been friends for 20 years were crossing the street so as not to acknowledge each other


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

At least in most trot splits nobody gets killed over it.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

Fissiparous! I've learnt a new word today, sounds like a dinasour!



> Only if you're in those groups for non-instrumental reasons - I doubt many people are these days.
> 
> And I think you're flattering those "sects" by overestimating their influence in the anti-cuts movement.
> 
> Also, judging by your humourless contributions on this thread, I reckon going for a pint with you probably did more to put them off than any trot conference.


 
Leaving my pub humour aside for a moment (although I have got a cracking joke about the Foreign Legion and a camel), again I think you are missing my point. If someone said I'm joining the Jesus Army, but I'm doing it for instrumental reasons, I think you'd think that was a bit strange. But on here people seem to think it's logical to say I'm in a crackpot sect on the one hand and it's a bit of a joke, but I'm doing for instrumental reasons on the other, which doesn't quite add up to me.

As for the anti-cuts movement obviously the trade unions, for instance, doing sweet FA obviously is a bigger factor, but who would expect anything else with the current shower running them. But where the left did have an influence, they chose to use it to divide up the national anti-cuts groups in to their own three circuses, which in turn did have a genuine negative effect and just further ridicules the ideas of socialism.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> At least in most trot splits nobody gets killed over it.


 
Admirable positiveness.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

As far as I know none of us on the thread are members of the crackpot sects.

There are a few members of the SP - the largest and most sensible ( or dull depending on your POV) of the far left groups, one that for better or worse does have real, if very small and peripheral role in British politics.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

We'll have to diagree there. I think they are all crackpot sects. Some may be larger than others, some may be even more nuts. I've not come across most of the groups on the list, but the ones I have, SWP, Socialist Party, Counterfire, AWL, are, all mad sects in my view. As said the NSSN event I went to, which was dominated by the Socialist Party, was like a circus.


----------



## JHE (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> We'll have to diagree there. I think they are all crackpot sects. Some may be larger than others, some may be even more nuts. I've not come across most of the groups on the list, but the ones I have, SWP, Socialist Party, Counterfire, AWL, are, all mad sects in my view. As said the NSSN event I went to, which was dominated by the Socialist Party, was like a circus.


 
There are sections of the left so weird and off-putting that they make most members of the sects you mention seem pretty normal.  Have you ever visited an anarcho-event or visited your local urban campers in the Occupy movement?


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Somebody is still producing the EPSR  - the latest issue is from this February.
> 
> I'll delete the Red Party.


It is an oddity that our most leninoid member, whose departure from the red party ( no capitalization) caused the group to finally decide to dissolve the party and become a group, would go on to form the most publicly visible libertarian socialist group going atm.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> Just get the right ICP....
> 
> The SEP version are a bit...er...well, you wouldn't want them round your house for a cup of tea. Put it that way.


Had them round once, it was scary.


----------



## chilango (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> We'll have to diagree there. I think they are all crackpot sects. Some may be larger than others, some may be even more nuts. I've not come across most of the groups on the list, but the ones I have, SWP, Socialist Party, Counterfire, AWL, are, all mad sects in my view. As said the NSSN event I went to, which was dominated by the Socialist Party, was like a circus.



That's the nature of "enthusiasts"  and "hobbyists" for you.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> We'll have to diagree there. I think they are all crackpot sects. Some may be larger than others, some may be even more nuts. I've not come across most of the groups on the list, but the ones I have, SWP, Socialist Party, Counterfire, AWL, are, all mad sects in my view. As said the NSSN event I went to, which was dominated by the Socialist Party, was like a circus.



Let's Ignore the obviously fucking barmy comparison with the Jesus army - who are a christian group - so it would obviously be a bit daft for a Marxist to join them. Because I am, and you claim to be, a Socialist, it makes more sense to join a socialist group for instrumental reasons than it would to join a Christian one. It's amusing and worrying that I have to point this out.  

Now, it would be easier to figure out what you're on about if you'd be a bit more specific about what, precisely, it is you're saying is mental/detatched from reality about these groups. And it's not really "groups" is it? It's one in particular - the one that I belong to and the one that pretty much all non-trot lefties I know acknowledge is the least barmy of them all. 

And the fact that you've never encountered sparts or ICCers goes some way towards explaining why you think you've spotted a lack of self-awareness or hypocrisy or whatever. 

It's like saying someone who's once worked for MacDonald's can't criticise a corporate CEO because they're also tainted by the corporate disease. Or that someone on the dole can't complain about inequality because they're not a starving Etheopian. Or like saying someone in the Labour Party can't criticise the Nazis because they're right wing too. It just doesn't make sense. 

So what precisely is it that you're trying to say? Because I really don't get it. Are some of the hacks in the SP a bit barmy? Yes. Are the people I work with in my branch like that? No, they're not. And the people we talk to when we're out campaigning don't appear to think we are either. And that's what really matters isn't it? Fact is if I wasn't in the SP I'd be impotently ranting on the internet, or maybe I might have gone to the totally fucking mental occupy camp. That's the reality. 

The people we talk to, the people who get involved with our local campaigns, who we help, don't know anything about trot dogma and they don't really care. They're more bothered about what we do and more specifically what we can do to help them and ourselves. Strikes me they're taking a far more sensible and pragmatic view than you are. 

This may not be how it works elsewhere in the country, it might not reflect what's happened at national events you've been to (difficult to tell really cos you're not actually saying anything beyond "you're as mad as they are", despite the fact that you admit to not having the first clue just how insane they really are). I don't really care. I'm bothered about how I can be as politically effective as possible in my local area. 

And it doesn't matter how big you'd like our influence in the national anti-cuts movement to be, the fact is on that level we're irrelevant - it's the unions that really count and if people are drawn in out of necessity, as they will have to be for us to get anywhere, our influence will become even more negligible. 

That's just how it is.

And if you think whatever mentalness you claim to have witnessed from the SP is even comparable to what the sparts and co come out with I'd suggest you're the barmy one.


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## discokermit (Apr 16, 2012)

Belushi said:


> What kind of kid would actually want to go and sell newspapers?


my stepson. convinced of the need for a vanguard party and also conversant in the internal workings of the swp, joined the sp. 

oh what fun we had, me leaving pictures of derek hatton on the computer and referring to a fork as a "deformed spoon*", him calling me a student.



*"what you gonna eat your dinner with? 'neither forks nor spoons'!",

"you forking idiot",

"fork off, fork face".


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

I wasn't comparing left groups to the Jesus Army, it was a comparison in logic. Sorry if that wasn't clear. My point was that there is no logic to me in saying a group is a sect and such a joke that it could be sit com on one hand, but on the other hand say you are joining and staying in it for instrumental reasons.

I've given my examples and experiences of the left, and no it's not just about one group at all, they all seem the same to me. The SWP, Socialist Party, Counterfire. In the anti-cuts movement they were all as sectarian and mental as each other, although for what it matters the NSSN event was the biggest circus of the lot. I've also met a lot of individuals in those groups who are dogmatic, rude and seem to want to spend far too much time droning on about their "rivals". The other example I gave was my union, UNISON, where we had the absurd situation where we had the SWP standing one candidate and the Socialist Party standing another candidate, with barely a political difference between them in terms of the manifestos. Prentis (the bastard) must be laughing his nut off. And within the union I've heard time and again someone from one of those groups bang on about rank and file this and that, but in reality we have the almost non-existant UNISON United Left run by the SWP and on the other hand the Socialist Party who aren't building anything of that sort at all.

I have no idea if the Socialist Party is the least barmy, but given the comparisons that really shouldn't be much consolation, but happy to say you are less mental than the sparts or whoever else if that means something. Most people I know don't know anything about these groups, but those that do don't distinguish they think they are all nuts. And I can't blame them given their and my experience.

Of course there are genuine people and good activists in the various sects, but the organisation they are building can never get anywhere because it is sect. I don't agree that if you're not in a group you have to be impotent, there are plenty of trade union and community campaigns to get involved with. And while I think it would be far better to have a decent socialist organisation, as collectively people can work far better politically than as individuals, there is no point in my mind joining one of the current crop who not only discredit the name of socialism they also wreck campaigns I've tried to build, such as the anti-cuts movement. While the NSSN might have been the biggest circus nationally, the SWP were the biggest circus locally and nearly wrecked our anti-cuts group. But they are all the same in my experience, in terms of the groups I've come across.  And people do care when left groups turn up to campaigns and turn them in to bun fights, it's incredibly off putting.

I'm sure it may help you do local work being in a group, but I don't think being in one of the current sects ultimately helps to progress socialist ideas. And I find the argument that they are all irrelevant slightly disingenuous from someone who is in those groups. Surely members must think they will be relevant at some level and at some time, otherwise they wouldn't bother being in them. And the damage the various groups did to the anti-cuts movement was a real one, just blaming the trade unions doesn't wash it. It wasn't the trade union bureaucrats who squandered 1000s of people turning up to national anti-cuts groups, it was the far left groups themselves.


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## Geoff Collier (Apr 16, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I think we should play a game. Put forward a made up far-left grouplet name, and see who first manages to come up with one that actually exists. My suggestion is The Left-Leninist Current.


I once saw a leaflet issued by the Revolutionary Labour League. It was around 1980 or so and I always suspected it may have been a spoof


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## Red Storm (Apr 16, 2012)

What about the Animal Liberation Front. 

And wasn't there some iffy stuff about Green Anarchist?


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

discokermit said:


> my stepson. convinced of the need for a vanguard party and also conversant in the internal workings of the swp, joined the sp.
> 
> oh what fun we had, me leaving pictures of derek hatton on the computer and referring to a fork as a "deformed spoon*", him calling me a student.
> 
> ...


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Who are these guys then? Another new addition 

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-or-not-london-27-april.291997/#post-11089458


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> I wasn't comparing left groups to the Jesus Army, it was a comparison in logic. Sorry if that wasn't clear. My point was that there is no logic to me in saying a group is a sect and such a joke that it could be sit com on one hand, but on the other hand say you are joining and staying in it for instrumental reasons.
> 
> I've given my examples and experiences of the left, and no it's not just about one group at all, they all seem the same to me. The SWP, Socialist Party, Counterfire. In the anti-cuts movement they were all as sectarian and mental as each other, although for what it matters the NSSN event was the biggest circus of the lot. I've also met a lot of individuals in those groups who are dogmatic, rude and seem to want to spend far too much time droning on about their "rivals". The other example I gave was my union, UNISON, where we had the absurd situation where we had the SWP standing one candidate and the Socialist Party standing another candidate, with barely a political difference between them in terms of the manifestos. Prentis (the bastard) must be laughing his nut off. And within the union I've heard time and again someone from one of those groups bang on about rank and file this and that, but in reality we have the almost non-existant UNISON United Left run by the SWP and on the other hand the Socialist Party who aren't building anything of that sort at all.
> 
> ...



Now I can't even work out what it is about my post that you took issue with. 

Let's step back a bit - I said I was in there for instrumental reasons - because it helps me be more effective locally. You compare that to joining the Jesus army for instrumental reasons I know it was a comparison in logic. But unfortunately the logic fails because you're not even coming close to comparing like with like. If I'd been a christian who believed in communal living but thought the wacky uniforms were a bit daft then it would be a logical comparison. Then you admit that it probably does help with my work locally. Do you see what might be wrong with this argument?

And it's very simple - in the national context we are irrelevant. But the work my membership facilitates locally isn't. There's really no contradiction. 

Now, my membership isn't contingent on how well the group "helps spread socialist ideas" partly because I'm of the belief that people arrive at socialism through experience, rather than reasoned debate. However, the local work builds trust in the community. People we've campaigned with who've found us to be effective trust us. We have discussions about politics and what I say makes sense to them, especially as my work alongside them has built the trust necessary to lend my arguments credibility. 

It's not a monolith. It's not a cult. It's quite possible to find all the dogma and 1917 re-enactment stuff amusing and rediculous and still have good reasons for remaining a member. 

I don't know much about that unison election but I do know that in a unison SGE election campaign I'm helping with at the moment we have SP and SWP candidates on the same platform. I'm working very closely with a very effective SWP activist who isn't mental or remotely dogmatic in setting up a unite community branch. 

And if those anti-cuts meeting had been well enough attended to have even a remote chance of achieving anything whatsoever it wouldn't have mattered what the loony left had done - they'd have been drowned out by the voices of the thousands of "normals" that would have had to be there to make it relevant. 

Again, I doubt this is the reply you wanted. But it's the truth.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

Weird double posting phone thing.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

Weird triple posting phone thing.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

> Leaving my pub humour aside for a moment (although I have got a cracking joke about the Foreign Legion and a camel), again I think you are missing my point. If someone said I'm joining the Jesus Army, but I'm doing it for instrumental reasons, I think you'd think that was a bit strange. But on here people seem to think it's logical to say I'm in a crackpot sect on the one hand and it's a bit of a joke, but I'm doing for instrumental reasons on the other, which doesn't quite add up to me.


 
because the SP is not on the same level as the ICC or any of that is it?I am not saying that we are on the verge of leading a revolutionary vanguard or other mad shit, but the SP and CWI are a serious organisation that is doing a lot of important work, work which i myself have seen the results of in this area and others around the country. round here we have took part in and actually started local anti cuts groups in areas where none existed before, on things which imo actually stand of real chance of having some sort of success. I can say the same for the SWP and Solfed and the IWW, IWCA etc, all organisations which, why they might have some loons and hacks in them, (and yes i know that the IWCA would't like being lumped in with the others on my list ) have got a serious record of that type of participation, not just of ranting on the internet about people being parasites, stealing typewriters of people in your sect that disagree with you, or standing up in the meetings of other groups with all kinds of malicious lying shit, devoid of any connection to what people think or how people behave in the world, or for that matter argueing for people to break strikes and not be in unions because you're owned by a right wing publishing mogul that hates unions.

I don't think that I'm in a crackpot sect, I agree with everything we're campaigning on and everything we're doing locally, if that ever changed I would leave. yes it could do with some changes in certain areas, but it's nothing like the groups we're disscussing and their crazy dogma's. Everything we do in this area is about the local area and people don't think that we are mad while we're doing it. i was out for half an hour today earlier and ended up getting 20 signatures on a petition about some local cuts. do people think we are irrelevant lunatics, no, because we're campaigning on things and organising on things that are actually relevant to people's lives instead of ranting about parasites and swamps and the like.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

The logic was that saying there are instrumental reasons joining a group which is a nutty sect makes no sense to me, that was it, I'm sorry if the comparison wasn't very good in making that point. Obviously I wasn't comparing like for like. I don't think joining one of the current sects will help get socialist ideas any closer to reality because I think those groups, generally, make a laughing stock of socialist ideas. So while it might help you do things better locally, the group itself is actually making it harder to spread socialist ideas because it discredits them.

Even at a local level all those groups have acted in a way that has damaged local anti-cuts groups. If this hasn't happened in your area then good, but there are plenty of places where I know the SWP, SP, Counterfire etc have done real damage to local groups because of the way they operate. Obviously there weren't 1000s of people turning up to local anti-cuts groups, but there were 50 or so in lots of places, and in many cases most of them never came back because of the way left groups carried on, which put a total break on going forward. At a national level maybe 3000 people turned up to the various conferences. No massive shakes, but a fair few people, and again this was wasted as the left turned them in to a circus.

It's simply not true to say that you needed 1000s of people to turn up to local groups to achieve _anything_. In our local anti-cuts group we have had around 20-60 people turn up to any given organising meeting (we have two a month) and we have initiated and assisted with campaigns that have stopped services being shut down and stopped job cuts and this wouldn't have happened without the local anti-cuts group. However at the beginning when the group was set up it nearly all fell apart because the left groups just turned up and tore in to each other. Luckily they stopped coming as they set up their front groups, which meant we could get on with things.

I think people arrive at socialism through experience as well, but when their experience of socialism is strange sects that call themselves socialist organisations then that doesn't help.

The UNISON election was very recent and was the general secretary election, it was at a crucial time for the union, and the far left, because of petty differences, stood two candidates. To be frank, it was pathetic and did have a real affect in demoralisng and disorientating members who have had a enough with the leadership.

Anyway we will probably just waste our time carrying this on, I'm not very likely to convince a member of a group I think is a sect that that is the case. Especially on U75. As you say, if that is going to happen, it will happen with experience.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

That's the SEP isn't it who try to break strikes? They operate round here and it's 2 people - a university professor and a teacher. One of them had a go at me for supporting labour once, when I asked him what the fuck he was on about he said that because I supported the public sector strikes I was supporting the reformist TUC's fake war and therefore supporting the labour party. 

Interesting to learn they're owned by a publisher. Makes sense. They stood in the ward next to mine in last year's council elections. Their leaflets were shit - no mention of anything local or relevant at all, it began by stating that they were revolutionary Marxists who stood in the tradition of Lenin and Trotsky, leaders of the Russian Revolution of 1917. That was probably the most sane bit that best tapped into the local mood though. The rest of it was attacks on unions and the rest of the left. The only vaguely reasonable bit was against the labour party, but they even managed to fuck that up, can't remember exactly what it said but I remember thinking that they'd basically called anyone who ever voted Labour a moron. But they were on really expensive glossy leaflets, I'd assumed both members had made big sacrifices to pay for them, but now I know what their scumbag leader does I suspect he did them.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

Frogwoman I have no idea who the ICC are. The same goes for you, as for the other poster, I am very unlike to convince someone they are in an organsiation that I think is a sect and harming socialist ideas. Good luck in what you do, but I suspect the far left groups will go around in an ever dwindling pool of numbers becoming ever more irrelevant to working class communities, which is shown by the last 30 years. That's not to say I think socialist or marxist ideas are any less relevant today, indeed they should be more relevant than ever in a time like this. As socialist groups still aren't getting anywhere in this kind of climate it should give them a reality check, but it won't. In my view something new will have to come along, an organisation that functions in a very different way to the current crop. I hope that will happen, but there is nothing there as of yet.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

This was an entertaining thread for a while


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## Red Storm (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's the SEP isn't it who try to break strikes? They operate round here and it's 2 people - a university professor and a teacher. One of them had a go at me for supporting labour once, when I asked him what the fuck he was on about he said that because I supported the public sector strikes I was supporting the reformist TUC's fake war and therefore supporting the labour party.
> 
> Interesting to learn they're owned by a publisher. Makes sense. They stood in the ward next to mine in last year's council elections. Their leaflets were shit - no mention of anything local or relevant at all, it began by stating that they were revolutionary Marxists who stood in the tradition of Lenin and Trotsky, leaders of the Russian Revolution of 1917. That was probably the most sane bit that best tapped into the local mood though. The rest of it was attacks on unions and the rest of the left. The only vaguely reasonable bit was against the labour party, but they even managed to fuck that up, can't remember exactly what it said but I remember thinking that they'd basically called anyone who ever voted Labour a moron. But they were on really expensive glossy leaflets, I'd assumed both members had made big sacrifices to pay for them, but now I know what their scumbag leader does I suspect he did them.


 
There are loads of SEP in Manchester, all pretty old. They stand outside Man Uni library with leaflets for their meetings under the banner of International Socialist Students Equality or something. Why they have a students group I don't know, not one is under the age of 40. They stand in elections in Manchester Central too. As do the WRP and SLP.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Frogwoman I have no idea who the ICC are. The same goes for you, as for the other poster, I am very unlike to convince someone they are in an organsiation that I think is a sect and harming socialist ideas. Good luck in what you do, but I suspect the far left groups will go around in an ever dwindling pool of numbers becoming ever more irrelevant to working class communities, which is shown by the last 30 years. That's not to say I think socialist or marxist ideas are any less relevant today, indeed they should be more relevant than ever in a time like this. As socialist groups still aren't getting anywhere in this kind of climate it should give them a reality check, but it won't. In my view something new will have to come along, an organisation that functions in a very different way to the current crop. I hope that will happen, but there is nothing there as of yet.


 
im not denying that it could do with some changes. in my opinion it could be a lot more self critical at times. but harming socialist ideas? I don't think so. its nice to know that my friend who helped organise a strike in the local hospital here of previously organised un-unionised workers, a strike which was partially successful, was harming socialist ideas when he did so. it's also nice to know that the meeting we organised the other week on an issue which affects loads of people who live here, which got 16 people to it most of whom had never been involved in any campaign, was harming socialist ideas. Perhaps we should not have bothered eh?

ETA: I'm sorry, that probably came across as quite harsh. seriously though, I get what you are saying, but I don't think it's like that everywhere. I do agree that the left needs to be less sectarian but I do think that is changing especially because people are waking up to the reality of what's going on a lot more. Some of the fallings out are however over serious issues such as the labour party and whether to support them or not, I don't think it's mindless sectarianism that people fall out over it necessarily especially because this is something that's caused such damage in the past.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Frogwoman I have no idea who the ICC are. The same goes for you, as for the other poster, I am very unlike to convince someone they are in an organsiation that I think is a sect and harming socialist ideas. Good luck in what you do, but I suspect the far left groups will go around in an ever dwindling pool of numbers becoming ever more irrelevant to working class communities, which is shown by the last 30 years. That's not to say I think socialist or marxist ideas are any less relevant today, indeed they should be more relevant than ever in a time like this. As socialist groups still aren't getting anywhere in this kind of climate it should give them a reality check, but it won't. In my view something new will have to come along, an organisation that functions in a very different way to the current crop. I hope that will happen, but there is nothing there as of yet.



Funny enough that's not too far from the official SP position.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> im not denying that it could do with some changes. in my opinion it could be a lot more self critical at times. but harming socialist ideas? I don't think so. its nice to know that my friend who helped organise a strike in the local hospital here of previously organised un-unionised workers, a strike which was partially successful, was harming socialist ideas when he did so. it's also nice to know that the meeting we organised the other week on an issue which affects loads of people who live here, which got 16 people to it most of whom had never been involved in any campaign, was harming socialist ideas. Perhaps we should not have bothered eh?


 
Not at all, that's not what I'm saying. Obviously people in those groups do some good stuff, such as the things you have mentioned. I'm talking about how the organisations operate as a whole, and how their dogmatism, sect like behaviour and inability to change in any fundamental way means that the far left groups have dwindled and dwindled over the past 30 years and have become ever more irrelevant to working class communities. Despite the fact that have been huge social movements and an economic crisis. Those are the facts. Maybe I'm wrong and those groups will suddenly carry on as they are and but suddenly have a turn around in fortunes. But I doubt it.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> im not denying that it could do with some changes. in my opinion it could be a lot more self critical at times. but harming socialist ideas? I don't think so. its nice to know that my friend who helped organise a strike in the local hospital here of previously organised un-unionised workers, a strike which was partially successful, was harming socialist ideas when he did so. it's also nice to know that the meeting we organised the other week on an issue which affects loads of people who live here, which got 16 people to it most of whom had never been involved in any campaign, was harming socialist ideas. Perhaps we should not have bothered eh?
> 
> ETA: I'm sorry, that probably came across as quite harsh. seriously though, I get what you are saying, but I don't think it's like that everywhere. I do agree that the left needs to be less sectarian but I do think that is changing especially because people are waking up to the reality of what's going on a lot more. Some of the fallings out are however over serious issues such as the labour party and whether to support them or not, I don't think it's mindless sectarianism that people fall out over it necessarily especially because this is something that's caused such damage in the past.



Wasn't harsh at all. When people spout ignorant sectarian shit they need to be called on it. It's not as if we don't already recognise and openly admit to the limitations and shortcomings of our groups, and it's not as if we're asking anyone to join us. But to claim that the work we're doing, sometimes at the cost of very real personal sacrifices, is somehow harming socialism or the working class, especially when we're not really large enough to do anything of the sort, is insulting and frankly out of order. 

In other words, well said froggy


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Not at all, that's not what I'm saying. Obviously people in those groups do some good stuff, such as the things you have mentioned. I'm talking about how the organisations operate as a whole, and how their dogmatism, sect like behaviour and inability to change in any fundamental way means that the far left groups have dwindled and dwindled over the past 30 years and have become ever more irrelevant to working class communities. Despite the fact that have been huge social movements and an economic crisis. Those are the facts. Maybe I'm wrong and those groups will suddenly carry on as they are and but suddenly have a turn around in fortunes. But I doubt it.



Until you're willing to actually say precisely what it is that we're doing to harm the spread of socialism, beyond vague allusions to circuses, we're not really going to get anywhere are we? 

Interesting that it's "the sects" and not 30 years of neoliberalism that's caused this though. Very "marxist".


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

You can't really say what I'm saying is sectarian. From what I understand being sectarian is putting the interests of your organisation before the interests of the working class. As I'm not in an organisation that's not really possible. It's a word I've noticed the far left groups love to throw around as a petty insult, everyone is sectarian but them.

But as it happens I don't think it was harsh what frogwoman was saying, it's fair enough to put her point of view. But sadly I can't agree at all that the left groups are changing, reality just doesn't bear that out. There was the general secretary election in UNSION, the three competing anti-cuts organisations with barely a political difference between them, the recent meetings organised about the pensions which were a week apart and competing with each other, one by the SWP and one by the Socialist Party. I even remember the Socialist Party member standing up and saying with a snear "congratulations for filling a very small room", and then they SWP having their petty responses. They haven't woken up to anything as organisations. Again that's not to say that there are local activists who aren't like that and raise above it, and I know some great activists who are members of sects, but that doesn't change the organisations as a whole, especially as the leaderships are the worst of the lot.



> But to claim that the work we're doing, sometimes at the cost of very real personal sacrifices, is somehow harming socialism or the working class, especially when we're not really large enough to do anything of the sort, is insulting and frankly out of order.


 
I don't think it's out of order to say that I think sects that represent socialism harm socialism because they are sects. That doesn't mean I don't recognise that people are making personal sacrifices. It's a political criticism, not a personal one.



> and it's not as if we're asking anyone to join us.


 
https://www.swp.org.uk/forms/join-swp

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/main/join

http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/join-us


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

> Until you're willing to actually say precisely what it is that we're doing to harm the spread of socialism, beyond vague allusions to circuses, we're not really going to get anywhere are we?
> 
> Interesting that it's "the sects" and not 30 years of neoliberalism that's caused this though. Very "marxist".


 
You're just going in to demagogy now. Of course 30 years of neoliberalism has taken its toll. But there have been mass social movements and there have been economic circumstances which socialist organisations should have grown in, in my view.

I have given examples of why the socialist sects harm the spread of socialism in terms of the anti-cuts movement and the behaviour in trade unions (I gave the example of UNISON).

You could look at the way the competing sects behaved in the anti-capitalist movement, the anti-war movement, the Socialist Alliance, there are a thousand and one examples.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

With respect One Stop Shop, even though I agree with the bulk of what you're saying, could you knock it off? It's killing the thread. None of this is news to any of us, we know what the trot left is like, even the better groups like the SWP and SP are capable of behaving in the most childish sectarian way at times, infact some of us probably have more first hand experience of that kind of stuff than even you do. We get it. We know.

First thing you've got to understand is that some of the people, maybe even a majority of the people, involved in those parties are aware of these problems too. Some of the people involved may be trying to change the way these groups operate, change the outlook they have and to try and get them to leave the far-left ghetto they've made for themselves. Some of the people who have got involved may only be doing so because it puts them in touch with local socialists and gives them an entry point into community based anti-cuts work. Very few of the people in these groups are doing it because they want to advance the revolutionary vanguard, that's something I worked out a long time ago. Making generalisations about the motives for people joining these groups is a mugs game because the reasons for doing so are usually pretty varied. 

At some point there's going to have to be a new democratic socialist movement to hoover up all the disaffected ex-SWP'ers and so on because these groups, as they stand, are circling the drain of history and will die a slow protacted death otherwise. When that happens I suspect all the members of these groups who have a clue will leave, if there was a viable alternative to the left of Labour which was not j just another Trotskyite sect then half the people in this thread would be in it.

Anyway I've had a good laugh reading through this thread, gonna try and rack my brains for more funny shit I've encountered on the left over the years.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

after 579 replies to the op perhaps it's time to stop and take stock and realise that actually not very much has happened.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

look, i don't deny there's been some problems in the unions and in anti-cuts groups. i don't think anyone is saying there hasn't. but a lot of the fallings out, as i've said, have been over important stuff like the labour party, not some life of brian bollocks. there have probably been some petty and stupid idiots on both sides, there have been points where SP have been wrong, or where others have been wrong or whatever (and when i have thought i disagreed, I have said so on here), but that doesn't mean that the sp and swp etc don't have real differences that could cause problems in an anti cuts campaign or any other sort of campaign (on the approach to labour/green councillors doing the cuts and the like).

And as others have pointed out on here it's not necessarily a trot thing, it's a human thing. My dad used to be a member of this volunteering organisation and you would not believe the tales he used to tell of the splits and huge arguements that went on and the sort of malicious gossip that went on in particularly between a few long standing members. It's always going to happen. It's a question of how you deal with it.

And why shouldn't these types of parties have a join page? nobody is forcing anyone to click on it. urban75 has a join page, so does the cats protection league etc. it doesn't mean they are trying to force people to join it.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

To be fair I haven't said anything about why people join the groups, and I totally agree with what you are saying in that respect.

I like the circling the drain of history bit, very poetic!

And fair enough about the thread, will leave you to it


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah let's go back to trotspotting


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

Frogwoman I would debate more but don't think it's a good idea on this thread, I think people want to carry on with the more light hearted stuff  But I genuinely wish you well in what you are doing and the join links were just a jokey response to SN.


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## emanymton (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> At some point there's going to have to be a new democratic socialist movement to hoover up all the disaffected ex-SWP'ers and so on


Do you really think so? I'm not hopeful, I can't see where it could come from.


Delroy Booth said:


> if there was a viable alternative to the left of Labour which was not just another Trotskyite sect then half the people in this thread would be in it.


I would, like a shot.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 16, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> There are loads of SEP in Manchester, all pretty old. They stand outside Man Uni library with leaflets for their meetings under the banner of International Socialist Students Equality or something. Why they have a students group I don't know, not one is under the age of 40. They stand in elections in Manchester Central too. As do the WRP and SLP.


 
Yeah I remember them turning up to a debate at Salford University about Greece a few years ago and making absolute fools of themselves. There was a discussion on Greek fascists and whether or not the crisis would lead to a growth in fascist politics over there, which turned into a debate on the BNP. At some point working class support for the BNP was mentioned, which made the SEP guys erupt with anger, shouting about how fascism was alien to the working class and an inherently bourgeosis phenomenon, that by even suggesting that the working class had an inclination towards far-right politics we were smearing the working class and behaving like bag carriers for the fascists. When someone pointed out that the majority of the BNP's vote came from working class, traditionally Labour areas, and that some of the people in the room (Prof Jocelyn Evans for example) were involved in serious academic research on that very topic, they denounced them as "bourgeosis fantasists projecting their middle-class anxieties onto the working class" before going on to make some spurious claim about how inter-racial relationships were more common amongst the working class than any other section of the population, therefore they could not be fascist.

Of course less than a few hundreds yards from the building this debate was taking place were a number of working class estates, with practically every house there flying an England flag out of the window, where I'd been leafletting and campaigning on a number of occasions and where I can assure any members of the SEP there was vocal support for the BNP and for a lot of racist policies and ideas. To be so ignorant of something that's literally on your own doorstep is something that's only possible if you live your life in a tiny echo-chamber where everyone you know or speak to re-inforces a crude trotskyite view of the world.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

http://junge-linke.org/en/about-us Another one


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> You can't really say what I'm saying is sectarian. From what I understand being sectarian is putting the interests of your organisation before the interests of the working class. As I'm not in an organisation that's not really possible. It's a word I've noticed the far left groups love to throw around as a petty insult, everyone is sectarian but them.
> 
> But as it happens I don't think it was harsh what frogwoman was saying, it's fair enough to put her point of view. But sadly I can't agree at all that the left groups are changing, reality just doesn't bear that out. There was the general secretary election in UNSION, the three competing anti-cuts organisations with barely a political difference between them, the recent meetings organised about the pensions which were a week apart and competing with each other, one by the SWP and one by the Socialist Party. I even remember the Socialist Party member standing up and saying with a snear "congratulations for filling a very small room", and then they SWP having their petty responses. They haven't woken up to anything as organisations. Again that's not to say that there are local activists who aren't like that and raise above it, and I know some great activists who are members of sects, but that doesn't change the organisations as a whole, especially as the leaderships are the worst of the lot.
> 
> ...


 
You're just being a cock for the sake of it now aren't you? And your attitude suggests to me that effectively you are in a sect - yours only has one member though.

And you're completely ignoring the fact that we share many of those criticisms. But it is personal, you're just being dishonest now. Let's recap on where this started shall we? It was you arguing that there were people in this thread mocking the microsects despite being in sects ourselves. The implication was that we were hypocrites with no self-awareness. That's personal - stop squirming.

You also know full well that I wasn't claiming the parties weren't trying to recruit - I was saying that none of the people on this thread are asking you to join. Thank fuck.

And those examples you've given - that's a few twats acting like twats. You'd still get that in the kind of larger party we both want to see.

Demagogy lol - do you even know what that means? I'd suggest not.

There haven't been mass social movements, there's been occupy which we largely left alone. What a monumental success that was in our absence. The SA was a monumental cock up, I agree. And so was the anti-war movement, though think the roots of its failure went far deeper than the SWP's sectarianism.

You're basically determined to have a dig. It's a bit pathetic to be honest.

And that's me done with you now.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah I remember them turning up to a debate at Salford University about Greece a few years ago and making absolute fools of themselves. There was a discussion on Greek fascists and whether or not the crisis would lead to a growth in fascist politics over there, which turned into a debate on the BNP. At some point working class support for the BNP was mentioned, which made the SEP guys erupt with anger, shouting about how fascism was alien to the working class and an inherently bourgeosis phenomenon, that by even suggesting that the working class had an inclination towards far-right politics we were smearing the working class and behaving like bag carriers for the fascists. When someone pointed out that the majority of the BNP's vote came from working class, traditionally Labour areas, and that some of the people in the room (Prof Jocelyn Evans for example) were involved in serious academic research on that very topic, they denounced them as "bourgeosis fantasists projecting their middle-class anxieties onto the working class" before going on to make some spurious claim about how inter-racial relationships were more common amongst the working class than any other section of the population, therefore they could not be fascist.
> 
> Of course less than a few hundreds yards from the building this debate was taking place were a number of working class estates, with practically every house there flying an England flag out of the window, where I'd been leafletting and campaigning on a number of occasions and where I can assure any members of the SEP there was vocal support for the BNP and for a lot of racist policies and ideas. To be so ignorant of something that's literally on your own doorstep is something that's only possible if you live your life in a tiny echo-chamber where everyone you know or speak to re-inforces a crude trotskyite view of the world.


 
Stay well away from them.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 16, 2012)

SN you've just decended in to personal insults now. I'm sorry if I've offended your sensibilities about your group, as said, it's political, not personal. The self-awareness bit could be taken as personal I guess, but I'd get a bit more thick skinned if that offends you that much. As said the joining links were light hearted.

Anyway cheer up and leave it there, people want to go back to trot spotting.


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## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2012)

Joe Hargrave said:
			
		

> A Tale of Two Men
> By Joe Hargrave
> 
> Here is a story you might find interesting:
> ...


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> SN you've just decended in to personal insults now. I'm sorry if I've offended your sensibilities about your group, as said, it's political, not personal. The self-awareness bit could be taken as personal I guess, but I'd get a bit more thick skinned if that offends you that much. As said the joining links were light hearted.
> 
> Anyway cheer up and leave it there, people want to go back to trot spotting.


 
Nothing to do with the group - you're deliberately misrepresenting me now - I'm happy to criticise the group myself, as I have done on here in the past and no doubt will again. I have no emotional attachment to it and your attempts to paint me as a hack are, again, dishonest and pathetic. It's about the personal stuff that you're refusing to admit to. "It's just political" is a kop out and you know it - anyone who wants to look can check the thread and see that you're lying.

Now pack it in and grow up.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

I also remember being at an anti-fascist meeting in Nottingham, at a community centre near The Meadows estate, not long after the whole Bolton EDL demo fiasco that mortally wounded the UAF, discussing what to do next. It was the usual lefty stuff, I think called by the local trades council, with vegan food and various working groups before a meeting at the end to sum it all up. There was a few lefty groups there, Labour left people, SWP and SP, a few trades union types and a few unaffiliated. And Comrade Lenin from the IBT was there, with a female member who was wearing those weird fox-hunting horsey pants that rich people (and occasionally Chris Eubank) wear. I think she was trying to look like Rosa Luxembourg as a counter-point to his Lenin look.

A draft statement was decided upon and was about to be voted on, I can't remember the details, but just before this formality took place Mr Lenin raised a point of order, and demanded a debate on whether or not the EDL could be accurately described as fascist or not. This "Point of order" was a 15 minute rant about the technicalities of whether the EDL are traditionally fascist organisation, or crypto-fascist etc. After a very long-winded speech, with numerous quotes from Trotsky, he set out his idea that the EDL were "a deformed cryto-fascist off-shoot of the BNP" and proposed that any future propaganda should refer to them as such and not as simply fascists.

There were lots of groans about this, I got the feeling it wasn't the first time Comrade Lenin had been here and done this very same thing. I spoke next, and in my normal understated way said that the EDL at the time hadn't even made _any_ coherent political demands, or shown any degree of interest in politics beyond beating up asian people, and so going to any sort of lengths to categorize them political was a waste of time. And I also mentioned that even if they were "cryto-fascists" or whatever, what practical difference does that make towards our opposition to them? I got a rapterous round of applaus for that and a lot of dirty looks off Comrade Lenin afterwards. Infact he wouldn't even shake my hand after the meeting was over when I approached him, so somewhere in IBT HQ I have a feeling my name is on a list of "counter-revolutionary social democrats" or something.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Joe Hargrave said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Where did you find that? There's a couple of people I'd like to speak to about it  and I want to know it's legit before I do.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

One of the anti war demos I went on I got given a leaflet by some strange guy, in tiny print, going on and on about North Korea and its right to have (and use!) nuclear weapons. It could have been the sparts but I don't remember now.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I found it here

http://trotskyism.livejournal.com/3890.html

and here

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918

but it's something i've heard before and it's been confirmed iirc, i think spanky etc might no more.

Read that thread btw ... very revealing.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> One of the anti war demos I went on I got given a leaflet by some strange guy, in tiny print, going on and on about North Korea and its right to have (and use!) nuclear weapons. It could have been the sparts but I don't remember now.


 
That's definitely IBT. Thats the reason they split from the sparts, because they disagreed on A deformed workers state right to nuclear weapons. You shoudl read their paper 1917 it just goes on and on about North Korea and why the Sparts are imperialist running dogs every edition they print.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> That's definitely IBT. Thats the reason they split from the sparts, because they disagreed on A deformed workers state right to nuclear weapons. You shoudl read their paper 1917 it just goes on and on about North Korea and why the Sparts are imperialist running dogs every edition they print.


 
Seriously? I remember some of the IBT "interventions" and they were relatively pleasant and polite. There is also someone from the IBT who I've met on a few demos and she seems OK, pretty normal (well i know that's a relative term but anyway). They always seem quite reasonable even if their ideas are a bit mental. I don't know anything about them tbh.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Who are the ones who love Milosevic? There used to be one of them (in Chesterfield of all places) who came up to the SWP stall every week to shout at us about it.


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## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> but it's something i've heard before and it's been confirmed iirc, i think spanky etc might no more.


 
totally confirmed, even by SEP members.

http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/GRPI_puzzle.html


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

> “On the _myspace_ [website] discussion of the issue, one neophyte supporter of the SEP summed up the explanation he had been given as follows:
> “1) the GRPI does not fund the SEP;
> “2) the GRPI provides employment for a number of comrades;
> “3) no one is getting rich through their involvement with the GRPI;
> ...


 
the gpri is a successful company and has won awards for being a quality employer

cunts.


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## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Not long after the whole Bolton EDL demo fiasco that mortally wounded the UAF, discussing what to do next.


 
I believe that was a very well organised mini-riot


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I believe that was a very well organised mini-riot


 
You could make a sitcom just about that day if you ask me. Listening to the the SWP full-timers on the verge of tears trying rouse the crowd into chanting "let Martin go" as the police kicked the shit out of everyone is one of the most surreal moments of my life.

_We must protect the Vanguard, comrades!_


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## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> You could make a sitcom just about that day if you ask me. Listening to the the SWP full-timers on the verge of tears trying rouse the crowd into chanting "let Martin go" as the police kicked the shit out of everyone is one of the most surreal moments of my life.
> 
> _We must protect the Vanguard, comrades!_


funnily enough, that's not how I remember it at all


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> You could make a sitcom just about that day if you ask me. Listening to the the SWP full-timers on the verge of tears trying rouse the crowd into chanting "let Martin go" as the police kicked the shit out of everyone is one of the most surreal moments of my life.
> 
> _We must protect the Vanguard, comrades!_


 
I was at that one. What a shambles. I ended up crushed up between a wall and a line of coppers and they tried to arrest me for not moving back - the fact there was a wall behind me didn't seem to bother them.

What I could never work out was why the people with megaphones kept asking people to go to the edges of the cordon to push against the coppers - what was that supposed to achieve? Just seemed like they wanted people to do it so that it made the demo look more "militant".


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## barney_pig (Apr 17, 2012)

the IBT in Britain are the nicest people you are likely to meet, who promote some of the most unpleasant politics you are likely to come across.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> the IBT in Britain are the nicest people you are likely to meet, who promote some of the most unpleasant politics you are likely to come across.


 
How so? I don't know anything about them really.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I was at that one. What a shambles. I ended up crushed up between a wall and a line of coppers and they tried to arrest me for not moving back - the fact there was a wall behind me didn't seem to bother them.
> 
> What I could never work out was why the people with megaphones kept asking people to go to the edges of the cordon to push against the coppers - what was that supposed to achieve? Just seemed like they wanted people to do it so that it made the demo look more "militant".


 
Yeah I remember that it was fucking insane! I remember the SWP 'ers with the megaphones chanting "Hold the line" and encouraging their members to engage in some pathetic pushing and shoving ritual with the police, meanwhile those who weren't doing that were pretty much allowed to leave the "kettle" whenever they wanted with no police problems at all. I have absolutely no idea what they were thinking. It was the UAF who secretly agreed with the police beforehand to "kettle" themselves and have a little pen to hold their demo in, and now they were there they wanted to try and force their way out or something? It was ridiculous.

We were at the other side of the enclosure facing the EDL taking the piss out of them. It was very funny. Just spent ages ripping them, even the coppers were laughing. They looked like such a bunch of crackheads it's unreal.

I remember being involved in some pushing and shoving with the police, which covered about 3/4 of the UAF side of the divide, with the other 1/4 being un-covered and where people where just milling about normally. I remember there being a line of swappies pushing against the police, and in the rough and tumble they moved towards the war memorial, where there was some old trot having his cheese butty as if he was in the middle of a fucking picnic. As the mass of bodies moved further towards him I shouted "mate you'd better move" and he was very annoyed by this, he wanted to stay sat down and finish his cheese sandwich. He seemed totally oblivious to the fact there was a mini-riot going on yards from where he was sat. Then out the corner of my eye I saw a load of christians holding candles singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" as all hell was breaking loose around them.

The best bit was the Scottish guy who I saw have an argument with the police. It was when the tactical heavy-duy boys had just gone in to arrest Weyman Bennett and Martin Smith, and they were struggling to get out of the crowd that had surounded them. The exhange went something like this

Police: Get back! You don't understand, we're here to protect you from them, they'll murder you, their animals
Scottish guy: Nah mate, you dinnae understand, that will'nae do for me, i've gotta get at 'em!

Maybe you had to be there.


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## barney_pig (Apr 17, 2012)

met them quite a few times, but at the weekly worker summer school all the micro sects tend to congregate and relax a bit, everyone knows each other and have less to prove. you get the chance to make friends across the barricades.
 as to their politics, check out the leaflet above^ the reference to the sparts "dive on saving marines" was about the row over the spart headline overthe huge carbomb killing of us marines in lebanon in1983 saying "bring them home", and the IBT adding "in body bags"
 the two gangs indulge in a game of vicarious bloodlust in which neither ever get their own hands dirty (at one time the sparts announced an international brigade to fight in support of the soviet army in Afghanistan,) unlike cockers similar initiative that one never even made it to the Cheedle high street bus stop


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

fair play, don't know anything about the weekly worker summer school lol.i must be missing out 




			
				barney_pig said:
			
		

> met them quite a few times, but at the weekly worker summer school all the micro sects tend to congregate and relax a bit, everyone knows each other and have less to prove. you get the chance to make friends across the barricades.
> as to their politics, check out the leaflet above^ the reference to the sparts "dive on saving marines" was about the row over the spart headline overthe huge carbomb killing of us marines in lebanon in1983 saying "bring them home", and the IBT adding "in body bags"​


​bloody hell  they didn't actually write that did they?​


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2012)

The IBT, if I recall correctly, put forward the slogan "Colonialists: Live Like Pigs - Die Like Pigs" after the 1983 Beirut barracks bombs, which killed 299 US and French soldiers as well as some civilians.


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> fair play, don't know anything about the weekly worker summer school lol.i must be missing out


 
I went to that many years ago. They bought me a load of pints and advised me to join the Socialist Party as a spy.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah I remember that it was fucking insane! I remember the SWP 'ers with the megaphones chanting "Hold the line" and encouraging their members to engage in some pathetic pushing and shoving ritual with the police, meanwhile those who weren't doing that were pretty much allowed to leave the "kettle" whenever they wanted with no police problems at all. I have absolutely no idea what they were thinking. It was the UAF who secretly agreed with the police beforehand to "kettle" themselves and have a little pen to hold their demo in, and now they were there they wanted to try and force their way out or something? It was ridiculous.
> 
> We were at the other side of the enclosure facing the EDL taking the piss out of them. It was very funny. Just spent ages ripping them, even the coppers were laughing. They looked like such a bunch of crackheads it's unreal.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I was at the front too most of the time, it was weird, like it wasn't real - I remember starting a chant about some seriously weird looking fella having six fingers on his hands, and I remember big glass vodka bottles being chucked over and it felt like it was a game where we had to dodge them, I even shouted "heads up" and laughed when one came over. It's like it was that weird it made me behave strangely too.

When I nearly got arrested I'd just been to the portabogs that were just outside the other end of the cordon. I got out fine, but just as I was coming out a mad swarm of what can only be described as the most stereotypical middle class lefties (sandals, palestinian scarves, the lot, and I'm not exaggerating) came flying over, I assume on the orders of one of the megaphone people, and started pushing the coppers over there. I ended up getting trapped in it. And just to make it even more weird and make me want to go for a lie down, when they tried to arrest me the stereotypical lefty types actually managed to pull me away from the coppers. I couldn't decide whether to have a go for getting me in the shit or thank them for getting me out of it!

Worst thing I saw that day though, and it wasn't funny at all, was this really old bloke - must have been in his nineties - who was just standing there minding his own business. The coppers came running past him and I'm sure one of them deliberately pushed the poor old sod over. About a week after I saw an interview he did at the demo on youtube - he was a Canadian WW2 vet who'd volunteered to fight with the British against the Nazis and if I remember correctly he had to con his way onto some haulage vessel to get here to fight, a genuine first class hero, and he'd found out about the demo from the Morning Star, which had appealed for people to come and make a stand against the fascists. He died not long after and for some reason I often think about that bloke when people are talking about the UAF.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Stalin had trotsky murdered, but yet here they are, the "true form of trotskyism" happily defending the most disgusting regimes that are probably worse than Stalin's himself. says it all about the sparts really.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I went to that many years ago. They bought me a load of pints and advised me to join the Socialist Party as a spy.


 
as a spy, wtf? that's hilarious how come


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I went to that many years ago. They bought me a load of pints and advised me to join the Socialist Party as a spy.


 
That explains a lot


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Worst thing I saw that day though, and it wasn't funny at all, was this really old bloke - must have been in his nineties - who was just standing there minding his own business. The coppers came running past him and I'm sure one of them deliberately pushed the poor old sod over. About a week after I saw an interview he did at the demo on youtube - he was a Canadian WW2 vet who'd volunteered to fight with the British against the Nazis and if I remember correctly he had to con his way onto some haulage vessel to get here to fight, a genuine first class hero, and he'd found out about the demo from the Morning Star, which had appealed for people to come and make a stand against the fascists. He died not long after and for some reason I often think about that bloke when people are talking about the UAF.


 
Oh god I remember that, there's footage of it on youtube. Fucking horrible, that guy was a star. He used to go and do Stop the War stalls in Bolton, coz he was a WW2 who had been scarred by the experience. The police knocked him flying, he must've been 80+. Terrible


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> as a spy, wtf?


 
The CPGB/Weekly Worker used to try to recruit people in bigger left groups and keep them there as anonymous reporters for the Weekly Worker. They would also send new people, who wouldn't be recognised in.

At the time I was in London for a few months and was in a SWSS in Dublin. I hadn't decided whether to join the SWP or Socialist Party. I told the CPGB lot this in the pub and they then tried to convince me to (a) become a supporter of the CPGB , (b) still go and join the SP and (c) send gossip to the Weekly Worker. They advised me to join the SP rather than SWP because there'd be "more democratic space" to act the maggot. I didn't take them up on their offer.

It always makes me laugh when I see them do a straight faced disavowal of the very idea that they'd ever send supporters into other left groups to spy on them.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The CPGB/Weekly Worker used to try to recruit people in bigger left groups and keep them there as anonymous reporters for the Weekly Worker. They would also send new people, who wouldn't be recognised in.
> 
> At the time I was in London for a few months and was in a SWSS in Dublin. I hadn't decided whether to join the SWP or Socialist Party. I told the CPGB lot this in the pub and they then tried to convince me to (a) become a supporter of the CPGB , (b) still go and join the SP and (c) send gossip to the Weekly Worker. They advised me to join the SP rather than SWP because there'd be "more democratic space" to act the maggot. I didn't take them up on their offer.
> 
> It always makes me laugh when I see them do a straight faced disavowal of the very idea that they'd ever send supporters into other left groups to spy on them.


 
That is fantastic, and SO fucking strange. What sort of things were you meant to be finding out? Are they still doing it?


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## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, I was at the front too most of the time, it was weird, like it wasn't real - I remember starting a chant about some seriously weird looking fella having six fingers on his hands, and I remember big glass vodka bottles being chucked over and it felt like it was a game where we had to dodge them, I even shouted "heads up" and laughed when one came over. It's like it was that weird it made me behave strangely too.
> 
> When I nearly got arrested I'd just been to the portabogs that were just outside the other end of the cordon. I got out fine, but just as I was coming out a mad swarm of what can only be described as the most stereotypical middle class lefties (sandals, palestinian scarves, the lot, and I'm not exaggerating) came flying over, I assume on the orders of one of the megaphone people, and started pushing the coppers over there. I ended up getting trapped in it. And just to make it even more weird and make me want to go for a lie down, when they tried to arrest me the stereotypical lefty types actually managed to pull me away from the coppers. I couldn't decide whether to have a go for getting me in the shit or thank them for getting me out of it!
> 
> Worst thing I saw that day though, and it wasn't funny at all, was this really old bloke - must have been in his nineties - who was just standing there minding his own business. The coppers came running past him and I'm sure one of them deliberately pushed the poor old sod over. About a week after I saw an interview he did at the demo on youtube - he was a Canadian WW2 vet who'd volunteered to fight with the British against the Nazis and if I remember correctly he had to con his way onto some haulage vessel to get here to fight, a genuine first class hero, and he'd found out about the demo from the Morning Star, which had appealed for people to come and make a stand against the fascists. He died not long after and for some reason I often think about that bloke when people are talking about the UAF.


 
I lasted until 11am before some copper decided he didn't like the look of me. Spent the next 7 hours at Pendleton police station.

I think it got kicked off a little too early! Must have gone off at 9am!!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

Yeah it kicked off pretty much as soon as it became apparent the SWP wanted us all to be kettled into a fenced off area and forced to listen to their fucking speeches like a proper captive audience.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

I also remember one of the leading SWP bods, think it was one of the ones who ended up in Counterfire (might have been Nineham, not sure) say that he wasn't a Muslim but, in solidarity, Alahu Akhbar (or however you spell it) and people around me started shouting it - another WTF? moment - I mean fair enough Muslims saying it, but did they think that "gesture of solidarity" would be appreciated or something?

It was one of those days where I half expected to suddenly realise I had no trousers on and then wake up in a cold sweat. I've had less disconcerting flashbacks!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> That is fantastic, and SO fucking strange. What sort of things were you meant to be finding out? Are they still doing it?


 
They don't seem to have done it for a while. I think what they mostly wanted was a source for internal documents, plus some gossip about supposed internal ructions. They used to have two people in the English Socialist Party and would also publish mad stuff about how the Dave Nellist faction was trying to get one over on the Hannah Sell faction and the like.

Those two people were, if I remember correctly, the last people who managed to actually get themselves kicked out of the English SP.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> They don't seem to have done it for a while. I think what they mostly wanted was a source for internal documents, plus some gossip about supposed internal ructions. They used to have two people in the English Socialist Party and would also publish mad stuff about how the Dave Nellist faction was trying to get one over on the Hannah Sell faction and the like.
> 
> Those two people were, if I remember correctly, the last people who managed to actually get themselves kicked out of the English SP.


 
when was this? and seriously why do this in the first place? my god lol wtf were they thinking?  you literally cannot make this shit up, wtf possesses them to make them think this type of thing is a worthwhile use of their time? It is not even proper entryism ffs 

should have kept them in the party, and sent them back as like "double agents" lol 

is there anything online about it?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

One of the things that's unique about the Socialist Party is that it's a remarkably cohesive organization compared to all the other trot groups. You don't hear of them purging loads of their senior members every few years like pretty much all the other groups on the trot-left. Funnily enough even the "Official history of mi5" book that i've got says exactly the same thing about the Militant, that it's the only group on the far left with even a slight tradition of pluralism and the ability to accommodate people with differing views.

Then again that's probably the reason Taaffe has been able to stay in charge of the thing for so long, if he and his supporters behaved like Gerry Healy or any of the other trots no doubt the SP would've gone the same way as the WRP and the countless other sectoids in the country.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> One of the things that's unique about the Socialist Party is that it's a remarkably cohesive organization compared to all the other trot groups. You don't hear of them purging loads of their senior members every few years like pretty much all the other groups on the trot-left. Funnily enough even the "Official history of mi5" book that i've got says exactly the same thing about the Militant, that it's the only group on the far left with even a slight tradition of pluralism and the ability to accommodate people with differing views.
> 
> Then again that's probably the reason Taaffe has been able to stay in charge of the thing for so long, if he and his supporters behaved like Gerry Healy or any of the other trots no doubt the SP would've gone the same way as the WRP and the countless other sectoids in the country.


 
That, comrade, is because we submit events and conditions to a rigorous material analysis and always come up with the correct line so there is simply no need for splits


----------



## elfman (Apr 17, 2012)

Can't believe I'm reading through all of this. Think my trotspotting addiction has come back


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> What about the Animal Liberation Front.
> 
> And wasn't there some iffy stuff about Green Anarchist?



Some of the iffy stuff about GA is mentioned above. There was also the GANDALF trial, the sarin gas cheer leading and the classic article about DIY trepanning. 


GA was always near the top of my list of papers to pick up on demos.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> http://junge-linke.org/en/about-us Another one



Do they count? Are they just a journal/collective? If so we'd have to start counting Aufheben, Wildcat, Black Flag, Freedom and of course Mayday....


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I also remember one of the leading SWP bods, think it was one of the ones who ended up in Counterfire (might have been Nineham, not sure) say that he wasn't a Muslim but, in solidarity, Alahu Akhbar (or however you spell it) and people around me started shouting it - another WTF? moment - I mean fair enough Muslims saying it, but did they think that "gesture of solidarity" would be appreciated or something?
> 
> It was one of those days where I half expected to suddenly realise I had no trousers on and then wake up in a cold sweat. I've had less disconcerting flashbacks!



I remember once, years ago, as a po-faced anarchist, refusing to take part in a a pagan thing at an Eco protest cos it was "religion".

Within a couple of years however, I was reduced to chanting "we pledge our allegiance to Satan" as part of a very bored, and very small, anarchist bloc on some exceedingly dull demo.

Oh well.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.
> 
> If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.
> 
> ...




In case anyone misses this due to tedious "taking things seriously" posts...


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

We've briefly looked at which are the biggest...SWP or SP I would have thought. But the smallest? How many of these groups are literally one man bands?


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> We've briefly looked at which are the biggest...SWP or SP I would have thought. But the smallest? How many of these groups are literally one man bands?


I don't think there are any literal one man bands at the moment. I don't know know whether it counted as a group but Revolution and Truth, a magazine published about 12 years ago, I'd guess, was just one bloke. He later got quite high in Respect. Whatever happened to him?

There have certainly been a few groups whose members could be counted one one hand. There was a Trotskyist Unity Group which united 2 people for a while. Then there was a three-man split from the Workers International League (one of the WRP splinters) which produced Workers Fight (not to be confused with Lutte Ouviere)


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Okay groups whose membership is in single figures:

My guesses - 

CWO
The Commune
GA
ILWP
ICP - CL
ICP- IP
ICT
Marxist Party
RWP
Socialist Fight


----------



## articul8 (Apr 17, 2012)

I would've thought The Commune would have more than that - maybe 20 odd?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I would've thought The Commune would have more than that - maybe 20 odd?


 Fair enough. Was just guessing.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay groups whose membership is in single figures:
> 
> My guesses -
> 
> ...


According to wiki, the Marxist Party dissolved itself in 2004. The Redgraves then founded the Peace and Progress Party, which may still exist but doesn't consider itself marxist afaik. The ILWP became the Economic and Philosophic Science Review

Does anyone remember the story of James Paris, an identity of Detroit-based Martin Schraeder (sp?)? He ran a whole fake international tendency as a sort of hobby for a while. There was a British affiliate listed - the Marxist Workers' Group who allegedly operated in West Yorkshire. It wasn't clear if they were real or just one person/group trying to con another conman. Did anyone ever meet them in the real world?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

He probably posts here


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> I remember once, years ago, as a po-faced anarchist, refusing to take part in a a pagan thing at an Eco protest cos it was "religion".


would it have been okay if they'd refused to take part because it was a steaming crock of shit of an idea?  (which i'm guessing anything 'pagan' would be)


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 17, 2012)

Just talking about the goings on of mad sects. One of my best memories in that respect is a Socialist Party member head locking another member of my branch at a NSSN conference. The following NSSN conference didn't live up to those heights but was still a fairly amusing/depressing circus with the Socialist Party on one hand and the SWP and assorted others on the other arguing why some minor difference meant we couldn't have joint anti-cuts organisations.

It's always fairly amusing as well to see SWP, Socialist Party or whoever else try to rally their little unit on marches with strident and shrill shouts through the mega phone as if they are leading a massive workers movement.

An SWP organisier getting caught at our local anti-cuts group throwing the Coalition of Resistance leaflets in the bin was also quite amusing. He went in to a rage when someone saw him doing it and stormed out.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay..here we go here's my list of current lefty/anarchist groups in the UK. Some may be defunct, and I've not included localist groups or journals. let me know if I've missed any.
> 
> If anyone fancies helping putting up a blog with info on all these (a kinda lefty trainspotting encyclopedia) let me know.
> (...)
> ...


If you are going to turn this into a serious project you'll need to correct the entry "SPGB - World in Common". Although they obviously came out of the SPGB they are a group in their own right, so would need to be recorded simply as "World in Common".


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## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

belboid said:


> would it have been okay if they'd refused to take part because it was a steaming crock of shit of an idea? (which i'm guessing anything 'pagan' would be)


 
It looked more fun than standing around taking myself too seriously ended up being...


----------



## love detective (Apr 17, 2012)

perhaps Johnny Favorite could give us an update on the British Workers Party?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

i dont think theres anything wrong with megaphones on demos because you can sometimes steal them and shout something silly. what i don't like is megaphones on stalls in the high street where people (usually swp) start using them and all the shoppers start running away from you


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

> An SWP organisier getting caught at our local anti-cuts group throwing the Coalition of Resistance leaflets in the bin was also quite amusing. He went in to a rage when someone saw him doing it and stormed out.


 
wtf why?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

Is there a far left group name generator somewhere? Surely they're going to run out of choices soon?

[Ideological Label] + [angry adjective] = new Trot group name

Proletarian Anger
Workers Fist
Socialist Rage
Social-Democratic Annoyance


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

someone should make a trot name generator  my favourite has to be "fractional bulletin of the left communist organ"


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Is there a far left group name generator somewhere? Surely they're going to run out of choices soon?
> 
> [Ideological Label] + [angry adjective] = new Trot group name
> 
> ...


 
You think Trot names are bad?

Anarchists are worse...

Autonmous Class War
The Love and Rage Anarchist Federation
The Wildfire Collective
Anarchy: A journal of desire armed
Days of Rage Collective
Bring the Ruckus
Space Hijackers
The Wombles
Crimethinc
Conspiracy of Fire Nuclei
Thieves in Black
Lie Wild or Die!
etc. etc.

Most sound like shit punk bands


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## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> "fractional bulletin of the left communist organ"


 
i have that manga


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> If you are going to turn this into a serious project you'll need to correct the entry "SPGB - World in Common". Although they obviously came out of the SPGB they are a group in their own right, so would need to be recorded simply as "World in Common".


 
They've got a separate listing already!

I can remove the SPGB bit from the front though...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 17, 2012)

Actually, where's the Juche Study Group on that list, or whatever they were called?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Is the Stalin Society on there?


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Actually, where's the Juche Study Group on that list, or whatever they were called?


Socialist Labour Party??


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Is the Stalin Society on there?


 
Nah. Some are in the CPGB-ML, others in the RCPB-ML (who I missed from the list) a lot are or were in the SLP too.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 17, 2012)

Are then Deng Xiaoping-ist parties anywhere?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Updated...



chilango said:


> Anarchist Federation
> Alliance for Green Socialism
> Alliance for Workers Liberty
> Autonmous Class War
> ...


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

All London Anarchist Revolutionary Movement?

Does that deserve to go on the list?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2012)

Don't forget Retro which was Workers Power's over 55s group


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> All London Anarchist Revolutionary Movement?
> 
> Does that deserve to go on the list?


 
No not a left wing group


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 17, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> I don't think there are any literal one man bands at the moment. I don't know know whether it counted as a group but Revolution and Truth, a magazine published about 12 years ago, I'd guess, was just one bloke. He later got quite high in Respect. Whatever happened to him?
> 
> There have certainly been a few groups whose members could be counted one one hand. There was a *Trotskyist Unity Group* which united 2 people for a while. Then there was a three-man split from the Workers International League (one of the WRP splinters) which produced Workers Fight (not to be confused with Lutte Ouviere)


 
United by a love of Trotsky and a shared first name; TUG otherwise know as 'the Phils'.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Don't forget Retro which was Workers Power's over 55s group


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18250


That needs to be on comfortable status-quo-blue-demin.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

There's also the Jewish Socialist Group which has meetings and sells a kind of paper/magazine hybrid.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> United by a love of Trotsky and a shared first name; TUG otherwise know as 'the Phils'.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
One of the Phils is the son of Brian Walden.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> No not a left wing group


 
No?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay groups whose membership is in single figures:
> 
> My guesses -
> 
> ...


 
What about Ivor Kenna's Finsbury Communist Association?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> One of the Phils is the son of Brian Walden.


 
Which one?


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> All London Anarchist Revolutionary Movement?
> 
> Does that deserve to go on the list?


 
local groups not allowed I think.


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

ooh, whats the full name for the.... Fenland Workers party is it?

Deffo a one man band.  Or even a slightly less than one man...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

the richie cunningham amendment


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

this one

http://brainontrotskyisttheory.blogspot.co.uk/

as i said, heart in the right place, but fuck ... i mean he still thinks russia is communist!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> United by a love of Trotsky and a shared first name; TUG otherwise know as 'the Phils'.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
That's amazing lol!


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That needs to be on comfortable status-quo-blue-demin.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18251


Sweet, looking comfortable.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Sweet, looking comfortable.


 
Stonewashed.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

..be a good name for it's publication.

"Stonewashed" quarterly organ of Retro - the revolutionary organisation of the middle-aged.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> That's amazing lol!


 
trots


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

i envy people who can do this photoshoppy stuff with ease. it confuses the merry fuck out of me.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I also remember being at an anti-fascist meeting in Nottingham, at a community centre near The Meadows estate, not long after the whole Bolton EDL demo fiasco that mortally wounded the UAF, discussing what to do next. It was the usual lefty stuff, I think called by the local trades council, with vegan food and various working groups before a meeting at the end to sum it all up. There was a few lefty groups there, Labour left people, SWP and SP, a few trades union types and a few unaffiliated. And Comrade Lenin from the IBT was there, with a female member who was wearing those weird fox-hunting horsey pants that rich people (and occasionally Chris Eubank) wear. I think she was trying to look like Rosa Luxembourg as a counter-point to his Lenin look.
> 
> A draft statement was decided upon and was about to be voted on, I can't remember the details, but just before this formality took place Mr Lenin raised a point of order, and demanded a debate on whether or not the EDL could be accurately described as fascist or not. This "Point of order" was a 15 minute rant about the technicalities of whether the EDL are traditionally fascist organisation, or crypto-fascist etc. After a very long-winded speech, with numerous quotes from Trotsky, he set out his idea that the EDL were "a deformed cryto-fascist off-shoot of the BNP" and proposed that any future propaganda should refer to them as such and not as simply fascists.
> 
> There were lots of groans about this, I got the feeling it wasn't the first time Comrade Lenin had been here and done this very same thing. I spoke next, and in my normal understated way said that the EDL at the time hadn't even made _any_ coherent political demands, or shown any degree of interest in politics beyond beating up asian people, and so going to any sort of lengths to categorize them political was a waste of time. And I also mentioned that even if they were "cryto-fascists" or whatever, what practical difference does that make towards our opposition to them? I got a rapterous round of applaus for that and a lot of dirty looks off Comrade Lenin afterwards. Infact he wouldn't even shake my hand after the meeting was over when I approached him, so somewhere in IBT HQ I have a feeling my name is on a list of "counter-revolutionary social democrats" or something.


 
Come the revolution it will be people like him, ambitious middle-manager civil servants, and gangsters who will rise to the top.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> ..be a good name for it's publication.
> 
> "Stonewashed" quarterly organ of Retro - the revolutionary organisation of the middle-aged.


 
Can I get an attractive binder for that?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Okay groups whose membership is in single figures:
> 
> My guesses -
> 
> ...


 
I'd guess that the CWO was more than single figures.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

There's Jock and who?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Can I get an attractive binder for that?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
"Each week a new issue adds to your collection, building into a partworker's paradise of exquisite ideals"


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There's Jock and who?


 
I did say it was a guess. Unless Jock is a master of disguises, I've seen more than three or four CWO members. (Admittedly, this was when I still lived in the UK.)


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Can I get an attractive binder for that?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
You can indeed.

It might take me a few minutes though...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I did say it was a guess. Unless Jock is a master of disguises, I've seen more than three or four CWO members. (Admittedly, this was when I still lived in the UK.)


According to belboid they all live in yorkshire and mastermind raves.


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

mastermind might be putting it a bit strong.  I believe he is trying to transmit the entirety of Capital via morse code playing subtly in the background of pumping techno


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> According to belboid they all live in yorkshire and mastermind raves.


 
Well, according to their website they're organising an away rave in Manchester on the 21st. Mad for it.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

again?


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> One of the Phils is the son of Brian Walden.


Would that be Phil Sharpe ?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's beyond a fucking joke I mean what the fuck are they playing at?
> 
> I was halfway through writing something, I know butchers is keen to see it, where I collectively list every single socialist organization in britain. From the IBT to the CPGB-ML and so on and so on. Just so I could see how many people were in them all. I didn't get through it because it's such a soul-crushing experience that I couldn't bring myself to finish it off. However, I can say with a degree of certaintly, there are well over 10,000 people in this country who are members of a left-wing sect or group, when you add them all together. And for those 10,000 people, there are literally dozens and dozens of parties. I keep coming accross new ones every time I look. It's beyond a joke.


Like to see watya got though.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Potentially 10,000 parties


10,000 people, 10,000 parties, that is anarchism isn't it?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Can I get an attractive binder for that?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> 10,000 people, 10,000 parties, that is anarchism isn't it?


 
Oh god, here we go.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

A liitle rushed, sadly.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> A liitle rushed, sadly.


Got no work today?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Got no work today?


 
Oh yes. But it's class struggle in action innit?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

bloody hell, dont give them ideas 

I wish trots weren't so trotty


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

What about the people who did Aufheben? Could they be considered a group?

And those that left the CPGB after reading Maurice Brinton?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Almost 6000 views now. Workers Power seriously owe us.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> What about the people who did Aufheben? Could they be considered a group?


no


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

What did they split into?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> What did they split into?


 
I think they called themselves Red something.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> And those that left the CPGB after reading Maurice Brinton?


 
Who was that?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

Manny Neira (who posts here) joined them...

I may have got my wires crossed though.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

Found it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_(UK)

"Leninism became the rupture point within the group in the early summer of 2005. The discovery by group members of the writings of Maurice Brinton (pen name of Chris Pallis) and the Solidarity group led to a reassessment of the groups political orientation and the departure of one member to the AWL."


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

covred fifteen pages back!

he's now the commune


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

D'oh!


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Manny Neira (who posts here) joined them...
> 
> I may have got my wires crossed though.


 
Does he post here? One of the most entertaining writers - for sheer humour and style  - to appear in the pages of the left press.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

belboid said:


> covred fifteen pages back!
> 
> he's now the commune


 
I'm guessing the Leninoid Communer previously mentioned on the thread is someone else. Formerly of the AWL parish.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

broder


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> broder


 
that's the chap.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18252


 
"A revolutionary organ replacement", surely?

I said, "A REVOLUTIONARY ORGAN REPLACEMENT, SURELY?)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2012)

belboid said:


> ooh, whats the full name for the.... Fenland Workers party is it?
> 
> Deffo a one man band. Or even a slightly less than one man...


 
One man and his webbed feet.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

belboid said:


> covred fifteen pages back!
> 
> he's now the commune


 
Hang on, aren't The Commune a split from Workers Power, or am I just totally lost trying to follow all this?

Incidentally, Workers Power splits seems to produce groups that are better than your average trot. The Commune paper isn't at all bad, and Permanent Revolution may only have about 30 members but the journal they do is one of the best on the left, some of the people involved in it really do know their stuff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> 10,000 people, 10,000 parties, that is anarchism isn't it?


 
Same jokes, year after year.
Are you Jim Davidson, perchance?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 17, 2012)

I remember an old poster from elsewhere called neprimirimye (Russian for irreconcilable, but not sure if a reference to a Lenin quote or a group of Makhaevists) who appeared to know some of the minutiae of sectarian lefty politics in the UK.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

He was on old member of the IS/SWP wasn't he?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> I remember an old poster from elsewhere called neprimirimye (Russian for irreconcilable, but not sure if a reference to a Lenin quote or a group of Makhaevists) who appeared to know some of the minutiae of sectarian lefty politics in the UK.


 
Indeed. Neppy, me and a few others actually wrote a big guide to all the lefty groups many years back. He deleted it though after we had a row iirc.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> He was on old member of the IS/SWP wasn't he?


 
Haven't heard from him in a while, but I think he still posts in various places in the lefty blogosphere.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm sure there was a thread putting all posters in their respective parties. I think things may have changed somewhat since 2006!


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 17, 2012)

I wish nanny posted here.
I think that the red star fatwa on broder has fallen into abayance since he became all non trot.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> I wish nanny posted here.
> I think that the red star fatwa on broder has fallen into abayance since he became all non trot.


They never change - they just learn to hide it better.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> I'm sure there was a thread putting all posters in their respective parties. I think things may have changed somewhat since 2006!


 
Do it.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Hang on, aren't The Commune a split from Workers Power, or am I just totally lost trying to follow all this?
> 
> Incidentally, Workers Power splits seems to produce groups that are better than your average trot. The Commune paper isn't at all bad, and Permanent Revolution may only have about 30 members but the journal they do is one of the best on the left, some of the people involved in it really do know their stuff.


 
I think you're wrong about Commune being a split from Workers Power.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Hang on, aren't The Commune a split from Workers Power, or am I just totally lost trying to follow all this?
> 
> Incidentally, Workers Power splits seems to produce groups that are better than your average trot. The Commune paper isn't at all bad, and Permanent Revolution may only have about 30 members but the journal they do is one of the best on the left, some of the people involved in it really do know their stuff.


Yes,their 2007-8 prediction (and reason for the split with WP) about the continued good health of the capitalist system and their dismissal of the idea that there was a bubble that was about to burst looks positively visionary today.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I think you're wrong about Commune being a split from Workers Power.


He is.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Workers Power split circa 2006 Urban thread.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I think you're wrong about Commune being a split from Workers Power.


 
Oh aye? Where did they come from then, I thought they were a faction from Workers Power that left at some point. To be honest I'm really not sure of the political background of them at all, so would be grateful if you'd fill me in on the details.


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Haven't heard from him in a while, but I think he still posts in various places in the lefty blogosphere.


 
saw him just the other day, commenting on Simons piece on the split, unsurprisingly


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Oh aye? Where did they come from then, I thought they were a faction from Workers Power that left at some point. To be honest I'm really not sure of the political background of them at all, so would be grateful if you'd fill me in on the details.


 
Well, the main banana in Commune was part of the Red Party after previously being a member of both the AWL and and the CPGB/Weekly Worker mob.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yes,their 2007-8 prediction (and reason for the split with WP) about the continued good health of the capitalist system and their dismissal of the idea that there was a bubble that was about to burst looks positively visionary today.


 
Haha maybe so, but I really wouldn't want to comment on it because I haven't read the articles in question. Any chance of a link to 'em so I can have a look.

I had a stack of back issues of PR to read through and I reckon it was one of the best journals going on the left, some really good analysis in there I thought.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Haha maybe so, but I really wouldn't want to comment on it because I haven't read the articles in question. Any chance of a link to 'em so I can have a look.
> 
> I had a stack of back issues of PR to read through and I reckon it was one of the best journals going on the left, some really good analysis in there I thought.


Do you know how mental that sounds after laughing at them for getting the major thing, the central point of their existence, embarrassingly wrong? 

Remember "Capitalism's long upturn"? (pdf)


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Do you know how mental that sounds after laughing at them for getting the major thing, the central point of their existence, embarrassingly wrong?
> 
> Remember "Capitalism's long upturn"? (pdf)


 
Is it the central point of their existence? Coz from what I can see most splits on the left are down to squabbling personalities and egomania that hide beneath disagreements about policy.

And I'll give that article a read later on, coz I haven't read it before, on the face of it yeah they got it wildly wrong, but in my defense I hadn't read that article I was basing my opinions on lots and lots of other things I remember reading in PR that were bang on the money.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 17, 2012)

Do you mock the prophetic genius and amazing anticipatory predictive reach of Bill Jeffries?


----------



## love detective (Apr 17, 2012)

have you ever seen him cradle/rock a baby - it's like he's mixing a cocktail


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Do you mock the prophetic genius and amazing anticipatory predictive reach of Bill Jeffries?


 
LOL I'm not going to comment on that, but I will say this, he's one of the best people to have on your side if there's ever any militant anti-fascism that needs doing. You don't wanna bump into Bill "The Lewisham Strangler" Jeffries in a dark alley I tell ya that


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Is it the central point of their existence? Coz from what I can see most splits on the left are down to squabbling personalities and egomania that hide beneath disagreements about policy.
> 
> And I'll give that article a read later on, coz I haven't read it before, on the face of it yeah they got it wildly wrong, but in my defense I hadn't read that article I was basing my opinions on lots and lots of other things I remember reading in PR that were bang on the money.


Yes it is/was.They split from WP because WP had sort of had the idea that the world econony was headed in bad direction. (Yes, they predicted 7 of the last 3 recessions etc)


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yes it is/was.They split from WP because WP had sort of had the idea that the world econony was headed in bad direction. (Yes, they predicted 7 of the last 3 recessions etc)


 
I'm gonna have to give that article a proper read and see what it says before I get into a heated debate with you on that, coz I've gotta go out soon and I haven't got time to do it justice right now.

I will say this though, if there's any left groups that think this crisis/recession is the final ultimate end of capitalism as we know it they'd be very much mistaken.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

No one has said any such thing.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Whats the posadists line on the current crisis lol?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> No one has said any such thing.


 
C'mon there's gotta be at least one of the groups on the list who've said that in a fit of pique, wishful thinking is a dangerous thing.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Whats the posadists line on the current crisis lol?


 
Ask and ye shall receive...
...read this and this and I reckon you'll find out.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Do you mock the prophetic genius and amazing anticipatory predictive reach of Bill Jeffries?


 
I won't hear a bad word said about Bill "Lewisham Strangler" Jeffries.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Ask and ye shall receive...
> ...read this and this and I reckon you'll find out.


 
bloody hell.

im starting to realise why a lot of people who aren't trots think all trots are mad  Why are they going on about the imperialist structure of labour and then bringing people into the labour party at the same time?


----------



## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm gonna have to give that article a proper read and see what it says before I get into a heated debate with you on that, coz I've gotta go out soon and I haven't got time to do it justice right now.


almost as silly as continuing to believe that _the crisis_ was still at least five years off (thanks to the power of china) was the idea that, even tho the working-class was still in recovery from a period of massive defeats, and so massive workers militancy and large scale strike action were incredibly unlikely, it was still perfectly sane and rational to call for workers defence squads against the BNP, patrolling the streets and alleys to fight the fascists wherever they raised their heads


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> bloody hell.
> 
> im starting to realise why a lot of people who aren't trots think all trots are mad


 
I didn't read it.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I won't hear a bad word said about Bill "Lewisham Strangler" Jeffries.


 
Yeah he's fucking top guy he was the first person to come help us out when our house burnt down, spent all day with us sorting it out with us, we sent out texts to practically every lefty we knew in manchester asking for help and he was the one who actually came and did something.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> Ask and ye shall receive...
> ...read this and this and I reckon you'll find out.


I never realised the Posadists were entrists in the Labour Party. How long has that been going on? Have they achieved much?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

> The same Labour Party structure that hatched New Labour is still with us. Hence Blair and New Labour did not steal the Party: they gave a voice to the hatred of National Conference, Clause Four and the Trade Union link of the apparatus itself. Following the collapse of the USSR, inner layers that were never socialist decided that communism was dead. New Labour was quick to grasp that capitalist money and rewards would go to those bold enough to put socialism in the grave.
> 
> Blair and Hutton left their posts suddenly. Why? The wind was changing and they fled: back to the bosom of the bourgeoisie and its rewards. They felt found out by the Party membership. The British masses rejected the imperialist role of Britain, and the Labour members repudiated Blair’s imperialist war. Blair lied about Iraq because he knew people rejected his war.


 
what


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> I never realised the Posadists were entrists in the Labour Party. How long has that been going on? Have they achieved much?


 
I didn't either. Anyone know anything?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

what....? 


> The same Labour Party structure that hatched New Labour is still with us. Hence Blair and New Labour did not steal the Party: they gave a voice to the hatred of National Conference, Clause Four and the Trade Union link of the apparatus itself. Following the collapse of the USSR, inner layers that were never socialist decided that communism was dead. New Labour was quick to grasp that capitalist money and rewards would go to those bold enough to put socialism in the grave.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

Like I said earlier I bumped into them in Southport once at a Labour party conference, and a few of my friends also in Labour have had occasional meeting with them, but there can't be more than 10 of them so I don't think they're likely to wield any influence to be honest.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)




----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

belboid said:


> almost as silly as continuing to believe that _the crisis_ was still at least five years off (thanks to the power of china) was the idea that, even tho the working-class was still in recovery from a period of massive defeats, and so massive workers militancy and large scale strike action were incredibly unlikely, it was still perfectly sane and rational to call for workers defence squads against the BNP, patrolling the streets and alleys to fight the fascists wherever they raised their heads


Was that as silly as the claim that this long and continuing boom has brought us to a pre-revolutionary situation?

edit:take that back -  that was WP majority who held that we are in pre-revolutionary situation, and not because of the continued good health of the economy.


----------



## love detective (Apr 17, 2012)

weren't we actually in a dual power situation for a moment as well - or do i have them mixed up


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

love detective said:


> weren't we actually in a dual power situation for a moment as well - or do i have them mixed up


That was the claim of 'rebel warrior', leading SWP intellectual.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 17, 2012)

love detective said:


> weren't we actually in a dual power situation for a moment as well - or do i have them mixed up


 
Is that like having a gas hob and an electric oven or owning a Prius? I think there's a Retro article in there somewhere.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Remember that weekend when we went to london and had a dual power?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


>


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 17, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Is that like having a gas hob and an electric oven or owning a Prius? I think there's a Retro article in there somewhere.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
I think there might be....


----------



## love detective (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Is that like having a gas hob and an electric oven or owning a Prius? I think there's a Retro article in there somewhere.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
I think they had a meeting in room 216C of the university union and that constituted a dual/parallel power situation (the other element being the UK state)


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Is that like having a gas hob and an electric oven or owning a Prius? I think there's a Retro article in there somewhere.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm enjoying myself today...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Excellent


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

I hope they're reading this. I'm putting a lot of effort into it...


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> I hope they're reading this. I'm putting a lot of effort into it...


There can't be many left, can there?


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> There can't be many left, can there?


 


That's yer lot for today...


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Same jokes, year after year.
> Are you Jim Davidson, perchance?


Comrade Ken [Dodd] is my stage name.
ETA. Having said that, Fairplay, having a go at trot groups for splitting, from people incapable of cohesion, is,,, a bit rich.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)




----------



## Stay Beautiful (Apr 17, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> When I was a member in southampton, we got an order in party notes saying that comrades who did not attend branch meetings which were taking place during England world cup games would be expelled. I think this was a SWP 'joke', hut it was read out at branch with all seriousness.


 
Yeah, isn't anti-England sentiment pretty much standard and not limited to the really nutty groups? I remember going to Socialism one year after England had lost in Russia and it didn't look as if we'd qualify for the European Championships. Came out after the main rally in the evening to find Israel had beaten Croatia unexpectedly and so it was still up for grabs. Not that I give much of a toss about the national team ('cos they don't, after all). Well, the reaction I got to being happy with that result was something else. Maybe because it was a double whammy. Israel AND England. lol. I think I would have got a better reaction had I said 'you know that Alan Woods and Rob Sewell.... top fellas.... I think they were right, you know!'.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Yeah, isn't anti-England sentiment pretty much standard and not limited to the really nutty groups? I remember going to Socialism one year after England had lost in Russia and it didn't look as if we'd qualify for the European Championships. Came out after the main rally in the evening to find Israel had beaten Croatia unexpectedly and so it was still up for grabs. Not that I give much of a toss about the national team ('cos they don't, after all). Well, the reaction I got to being happy with that result was something else. Maybe because it was a double whammy. Israel AND England. lol. I think I would have got a better reaction had I said 'you know that Alan Woods and Rob Sewell.... top fellas.... I think they were right, you know!'.


 
what year was this? that's surprising, i don't reckon I know anyone who'd react like that, in fact one SP member has a modified england flag as his facebook profile. Could be wrong though, you never know


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18258
> 
> That's yer lot for today...


 
Please do more on this mate.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

walk past any lefty stall wearing anything England related and you will not be offered any leaflets or asked to sign petitions. works every time for me when I'm in newcastle. England football gear = Trot Repellant.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Who are socialist fight? There is some mental guy on my facebook who thinks that Russia and all other eastern block countries are still all somehow stalinist. He wrote a blog entry where he actually criticised me among other wordy polemics for "accommodating to liberal bourgeois nationalism" for being a fan of England on facebook!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


think it's pretty much standard not supporting England during the World Cup etc are. The argument against comes under the "revolutionary defeatism" erm  genre [is that the right word, don't think so].

though there are some serious arguments about how it strengthens the Right, and the Far Right [ie attacks on Irish pubs etc], I would be amazed if there was any talk of expulsion. There was plenty of seasoned Cadre I knew of in the 80s who supported England, whose only rebuke was mild derision for being part of the "backwards element" from fellow members. [tongue in cheek]


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

@krink, you do realise that's the knell of doom now and you're going to be proved wrong from now on.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> walk past any lefty stall wearing anything England related and you will not be offered any leaflets or asked to sign petitions. works every time for me when I'm in newcastle. England football gear = Trot Repellant.


 
Noted.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> walk past any lefty stall wearing anything England related and you will not be offered any leaflets or asked to sign petitions. works every time for me when I'm in newcastle. England football gear = Trot Repellant.


You wouldn't have got past me. 

Perhaps it was some of the areas we used to leaflet, paper sale etc, but you could stop the unlikeliest of people and find out they used to be a member of the Labour Party, Communist Party, anarchist organisation etc. Soon learned, never judge a book by its cover.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> @krink, you do realise that's the knell of doom now and you're going to be proved wrong from now on.


 
oh shit, it's probably to late to delete the post too. now what will I wear to avoid being harangued about fucking Cuba?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> oh shit, it's probably to late to delete the post too. now what will I wear to avoid being harangued about fucking Cuba?
> 
> View attachment 18265


 
you could order a t-shirt with a picture of Stalin, Enver Hoxha or Ramon Mercader on it with "AGAINST TROTSKYITE REVISIONISM AND FOR MARXISM-LENISM" as the caption. I am sure Ern would be glad to design one lol. 

Seriously, I'm surprised that trots are haranguing you about cuba though. Which trots are these? does anyone still do that? Priorities people ...


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> oh shit, it's probably to late to delete the post too. now what will I wear to avoid being harangued about fucking Cuba?
> 
> View attachment 18265


should be a pretty catchall T-shirt.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> walk past any lefty stall wearing anything England related and you will not be offered any leaflets or asked to sign petitions. works every time for me when I'm in newcastle. England football gear = Trot Repellant.



Certainly not the case round here, there's a bloke who sometimes does SP stalls in an England cap. I do know what you mean though, I've been on stalls in the past where people have made comments after people in England gear have signed a petition and gone, assuming they're "nationalist" or whatever. It's one of my biggest pet hates about the UK left.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Seriously, I'm surprised that trots are haranguing you about cuba though. Which trots are these? does anyone still do that? Priorities people ...


 
i am not sure but i think in newcastle it is swp bangs on about Palestine and the Fight Racism Fight Imperialism (that's the paper they sell, anyway) go on about Cuba. we don't have any of this carry on in my town - just the odd religious group and chuggers.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> you could order a t-shirt with a picture of Stalin, Enver Hoxha or Ramon Mercader on it with "AGAINST TROTSKYITE REVISIONISM AND FOR MARXISM-LENISM" as the caption. I am sure Ern would be glad to design one lol.
> 
> Seriously, I'm surprised that trots are haranguing you about cuba though. Which trots are these? does anyone still do that? Priorities people ...


Get cubaist's at marxism haranguing [I gather concentrates on Cuba, I forget his name ETA I think it was Mike Gonzalez] most years.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> i am not sure but i think in newcastle it is swp bangs on about Palestine and the Fight Racism Fight Imperialism (that's the paper they sell, anyway) go on about Cuba. we don't have any of this carry on in my town - just the odd religious group and chuggers.


no disrespect, but surely you are mistaken?  SWP don't see Cuba as any different to Russia, state CAPITALISM, to which they are opposed.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> no disrespect, but surely you are mistaken?


 
? that's just me saying what goes on in newcastle when i'm shopping there. dunno if they're always like that but they were when I was there.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> Get cubaist's at marxism haranguing  most years.



Why didn't you call them cubists?


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

maybe spanky might know better as he's more involved in newcastle than me. i can't (rather, I'm not interested in) keeping up with trotty/lefty groups.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2012)

The RCG whose paper is Fight Racism Fight Imperialism will be yer lot going on about Cuba.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

why?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

One of the first demos i went on with the SP there was a group of tankies there and a girl wearing a stalin t-shirt.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

chilango said:


> The RCG whose paper is Fight Racism Fight Imperialism will be yer lot going on about Cuba.


 
that's them. seem canny enough people but a bit barking.


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> what year was this? that's surprising, i don't reckon I know anyone who'd react like that, in fact one SP member has a modified england flag as his facebook profile. Could be wrong though, you never know


 
Must have been 2007. No idea if it was representative but one of my the folks in question was a full timer.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

just a quick question, are the ones like the stalinist tankies not really left-wing or is it more that terms like left-wing are pretty meaningless anyway?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> that's them. seem canny enough people but a bit barking.



Not so much fruitcakes as Yaffe cakes.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I'd still say they were left wing yeah, but as this thread has shown it's a pretty catch-all term.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> ? that's just me saying what goes on in newcastle when i'm shopping there. dunno if they're always like that but they were when I was there.


Not disputing SWP were there, but " _go on about Cuba_", sorry, no way.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not so much fruitcakes as Yaffe cakes.


 
as an amateur trot spotter, i'm quite pleased I got that one!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> just a quick question, are the ones like the stalinist tankies not really left-wing or is it more that terms like left-wing are pretty meaningless anyway?


 

They're the _only ones _who are left wing. Trots etc. are liberals. /ernestolynch


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Not disputing SWP were there, but "_go on about Cuba_", sorry, no way.


 



krink said:


> i am not sure but i think in newcastle it is *swp bangs on about Palestine*


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Did those war supporting Harry's Place type ex trots ever set up their own party?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Well they didn't set it up but Harry's Place links to the AWL, or at least used to. Other war supporting ex trots joined the GOP and acted as advisers to Bush.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Are Spiked and co on the list?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> i am not sure but *i think in newcastle it is swp bangs on about* Palestine and the Fight Racism Fight Imperialism  *go on about Cuba*.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

learn to read you fucking cock.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> as an amateur trot spotter, i'm quite pleased I got that one!


you must be less amateur than me, because I don't get it.  what's the joke?


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

> i am not sure but i think in newcastle it is swp bangs on about Palestine





> and





> the Fight Racism Fight Imperialism (that's the paper they sell, anyway) go on about Cuba.


 
if you still want to argue about it find another thread to be tiresome on.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> learn to read you fucking cock.


Ahhhhh, sorry. My sincerest apologies. You are right, I am wrong.


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Ahhhhh, sorry. My sincerest apologies. You are right, I am wrong.


 
fair enough, no worries.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 17, 2012)

Someone above mentioned the AWL and a fairly recent exchange between the Socialist Party and the AWL was hilarious, I couldn't decide who was more crazy between them. From Peter Taffe (the bloke who has led the Socialist Party for longer than Stalin was in power!):



> On the contrary, the AWL, before it was called this, through Sean Matgamna and a few other individuals, was, for a very short period, part of Militant – now the Socialist Party – in the 1960s. They constantly raised criticisms from the first moment that they joined our ranks – in the case of Sean Matgamna, as a refugee from the thuggish Socialist Labour League of Gerry Healy. This culminated in them submitting a document of thousands of words for discussion at our national conference just before it was due to take place. The leadership of Militant said that we were prepared to discuss their ideas but properly and fully with full rank-and-file participation. This would not be possible in the time before the conference or at the conference itself; we could not have produced such a lengthy document or reply in time for Militant supporters to read it and make criticisms and comments. But we gave them an undertaking that we would publish the document and circulate it to the supporters of Militant and a full discussion could then take place on their ideas.


 
It's just totally bonkers, how can a leader of the Socialist Party would think anyone would be interested in a little spat they had with the AWL in the 1960s.

And the AWL responded with this, which if anything, is even funnier:



> Peter Taaffe, leader of the Socialist Party, has written two long polemics against AWL over Libya, the second of them digressing to many other things, back to Taaffe's grievances against criticisms in the 1960s.
> 
> AWL formally and publicly challenges Taaffe to debate the issues publicly, and we offer him a platform and an audience at our summer school, "Ideas for Freedom", on 8-10 July.
> 
> ...


----------



## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you must be less amateur than me, because I don't get it.  what's the joke?


 
david yaffe is from RCG/FRFI paper.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 17, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Someone above mentioned the AWL and a fairly recent exchange between the Socialist Party and the AWL was hilarious, I couldn't decide who was more crazy between them. From Peter Taffe (the bloke who has led the Socialist Party for longer than Stalin was in power!):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


in the Socialist Alliance where I was, this kind of
debate will take place on a weekly basis.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

This is a great thread by the way


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Are Spiked and co on the list?


 
Yes. We might be talking about different Lists though


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Lets have some Sean matgamanana poetry please.


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## Jean-Luc (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That SLP one is an allusion to the logo of the First International


Interesting. What about this one:

http://www.armandhammer.co.uk/products/enamel-care-sensitive

Is there a connection? If so, the logo of the First International lives on as that of a baking soda company.


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## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

Who is the bunch who are aligned to the American SWP? They're pro-Cuba. They came all the way up from London just to have a coffee with me and try to convert me to their cause.


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## JHE (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Who is the bunch who are aligned to the American SWP? They're pro-Cuba. They came all the way up from London just to have a coffee with me and try to convert me to their cause.


 
The Communist League - not sure if they still have a bookshop on The Cut


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2012)

krink said:


> oh shit, it's probably to late to delete the post too. now what will I wear to avoid being harangued about fucking Cuba?
> 
> View attachment 18265


 
A Nazi era postman's peaked cap?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Who is the bunch who are aligned to the American SWP? They're pro-Cuba. They came all the way up from London just to have a coffee with me and try to convert me to their cause.


 
Isn't that the Communist League? I remember being on a demo in London a while ago and an Icelandic guy sold me a yearly subscription to the Militant ( I just wanted a copy of the paper tbh coz it's quite historical) and he said he was a member of the Communist League Pathfinder tendency. But I think there's more than one "Communist League" around isn't there? Or isn't it one of those, like Socialist Labour Party, where the name's been recycled over and over through the generations by different groups? I paid him £5 for it, pretty good value.


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## mk12 (Apr 17, 2012)

JHE said:


> The Communist League - not sure if they still have a bookshop on The Cut


 
That's them. I remember them telling me they all join the meatpacking industry to try to unionise the...meat..packers. 

I think they are different to Pathfinder. I think there's two groups.


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## krink (Apr 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A Nazi era postman's peaked cap?


 
trev hagl been influencing me with his rants about postage charges.


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## Jean-Luc (Apr 17, 2012)

JHE said:


> The Communist League - not sure if they still have a bookshop on The Cut


Don't know, but they are standing a candidate in the City & East constituency in the Greater London elections on 3 May if anybody living there wants to vote for them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17541400


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## JHE (Apr 17, 2012)

mk12 said:


> That's them. I remember them telling me they all join the meatpacking industry to try to unionise the...meat..packers.
> 
> I think they are different to Pathfinder. I think there's two groups.


 
No, they are the Pathfinder Press lot. It seems there is at least one other Communist League in the UK, a fragment of a fragment of the old WRP, but I haven't had any experience of them.

The Pathfinder Press lot (or rather few, very few) are the ones who follow the SWP (US) and sell their rag called Militant.

I remember the precursors of the Communist League from about 30 years ago. At that time they were a faction within the Socialist League. (The IMG had changed its name to the Socialist League a few years earlier and there were a few factions within the group that were in permanent tension.) They were keen admirers of the SWP (US) and strongly supported 'revolutionary nationalism' as implemented in eg, Cuba, Nicaragua, Grenada. They wanted Castro and the Sandinistas and the New Jewel movement to join the SWP in forming some 5th International. (I don't think any of those movements reciprocated the enthusiasm.) They were also very keen on putting the small mainly ex-student membership 'into industry'. I think at least one of the other factions also favoured this 'industrial turn', but the pro-SWP lot were the keenest.

I'm not sure why, but I always found the people in the pro-SWP (US) faction more friendly and easy going than the other factions in the Socialist League. Of course, one of the other factions, Gawd help us, went on to become Socialist Action (Ken Livingstone's Trots).

As with the Sparts, there seems now to be a weirdly American flavour to the British group. The 'meat-packing industry' - who says that in Britain? It's pure AmerEng.

When I lived in London I used to attend Cuba Solidarity events sometimes, to see what I could learn about Cuba. The meetings, unfortunately, were almost always dominated by utterly utterly uncritical supporters of Castro. One such person was someone Silberman, an American who I think ran and runs the Communist League (UK).


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## Geoff Collier (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> what year was this? that's surprising, i don't reckon I know anyone who'd react like that, in fact one SP member has a modified england flag as his facebook profile. Could be wrong though, you never know


On the night that England lost the 1990 world cup semi final to Germany my SWP branch held a public meeting which finished just in time to see the penalties. Many of us held to a strange version of revolutionary defeatism which tended to alienate the other drinkers in the bar. I think this was witnessed by the Militant supporter who'd been sent along. Two nights later I attended one of their public meetings and was denounced as ultra left for not supporting England. They might have been different in other place or at other times.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 17, 2012)

^ Y'see that right there has the makings of a comedy sketch. Revolutionary defeatism via wishing England get knocked out of the world cup? I wish you were making it up.


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## belboid (Apr 17, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> On the night that England lost the 1990 world cup semi final to Germany my SWP branch held a public meeting which finished just in time to see the penalties. Many of us held to a strange version of revolutionary defeatism which tended to alienate the other drinkers in the bar. I think this was witnessed by the Militant supporter who'd been sent along. Two nights later I attended one of their public meetings and was denounced as ultra left for not supporting England. They might have been different in other place or at other times.


I was doing a branch meeting in Leed that night. Smallest meeting we'd had for ages, and two of them couldn't manage to contain themselves until it was over (which would probly have been in time for extra time).  Or that could just have been down to the fact that my talk was sodding tedious


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

how on earth can you justify wanting england to actually lose the world cup on the grounds of socialism? I can understand not giving a shit about the "nationalism" or wanting to watch it for the football, being so disgusted with the england team you choose another team, but wanting england to lose in the hope it will start a pre-revolutionary situation as workers get disgusted with the bourgoisie organisation of fifa? come on


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Hang on, aren't The Commune a split from Workers Power, or am I just totally lost trying to follow all this?
> 
> Incidentally, Workers Power splits seems to produce groups that are better than your average trot. The Commune paper isn't at all bad, and Permanent Revolution may only have about 30 members but the journal they do is one of the best on the left, some of the people involved in it really do know their stuff.


 
Nutter


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## discokermit (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> how on earth can you justify wanting england to actually lose the world cup on the grounds of socialism? I can understand not giving a shit about the "nationalism" or wanting to watch it for the football, being so disgusted with the england team you choose another team, but wanting england to lose in the hope it will start a pre-revolutionary situation as workers get disgusted with the bourgoisie organisation of fifa? come on


on the other hand, there was a time that if you saw someone on a demo wearing an england top, it would be a milly.


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## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> On the night that England lost the 1990 world cup semi final to Germany my SWP branch held a public meeting which finished just in time to see the penalties. Many of us held to a strange version of revolutionary defeatism which tended to alienate the other drinkers in the bar. I think this was witnessed by the Militant supporter who'd been sent along. Two nights later I attended one of their public meetings and was denounced as ultra left for not supporting England. They might have been different in other place or at other times.


 
Bambery spoke at at branch meeting in the 80s and denounced us all as the 'Trevor Butcher faction' for not going to branch meetings when the World Cup was on. He proudly told us that Scottish branches carried on as normal.'Why wouldn't they ?' we asked 'They are out of the World Cup?'

I soon forgot about my future career as paper sales organiser


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## discokermit (Apr 17, 2012)

marxism was great during world cups. i remember cc sending heavies to shut down the telly in the institute bar and meeting with open rebellion. the arguments between comrades during sweden v brazil were hilarious.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

wtf why? what was the problem with watching the telly  It's the world cup ffs!


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Populist jingoism comrade, one of the worst forms of false consciousness there is.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> wtf why? what was the problem with watching the telly  It's the world cup ffs!


yes but it was during MARXISM


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## discokermit (Apr 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes but it was during MARXISM


and during _meetings!_


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## discokermit (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> wtf why? what was the problem with watching the telly  It's the world cup ffs!


we had to physically defend the telly. no pasaran!


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

I got a bollocking for sexism at Marxism for telling a lass she was my ideal woman. It wasn't even pervy - can't remember exactly what it was about but she impressed me intellectually. And it was a fucking joke.

Also got told off for sexism for calling someone a twat so I said, "ok, he's a nob then," which was apparently much more acceptable.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

but if it was in a bar then presumably they wouldn't be discussing anything important then  It isn't like they'd be listening to speeches in a bar. I hope! 

The world cup is great some of my best memories as a kid were having the family round to watch it and my mum making pancakes for everyone during half time and that sort of stuff, i love the world cup, even though every fucking time i manage to convince myself we're gonna win


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

First world cup I got really into was 1990. I though we were dead unlucky in that so expected the next one to be much better. We didn't even qualify and haven't done anywhere near that well ever since


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## audiotech (Apr 17, 2012)

The 1978 World Cup held in Argentina was a polemical one and not just for the far-left.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

to be honest, fifa are a shower of cunts. that shouldn't detract from anyone's enjoyment of it though.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> First world cup I got really into was 1990. I though we were dead unlucky in that so expected the next one to be much better. We didn't even qualify and haven't done anywhere near that well ever since


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## audiotech (Apr 17, 2012)

I was at Glastonbury, you know a PEACE festival, during the England v Argentinian game - on portable TV's, hanging out of festival goers cars and when Maradonna did his "hand of god" move and it turned into a re-run of the Falklands war from some. That wasn't enjoyable to witness.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I was at Glastonbury, you know a PEACE festival, during the England v Argentinian game, on portable TV's, hanging out of festival goers cars and when Maradonna did his "hand of god" move and it turned into a re-run of the Falklands war. That wasn't enjoyable to witness.


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## barney_pig (Apr 17, 2012)

Every year the first weekend of marxism would coincide either with Wimbledonand or the ashes, I used to arrive early On the Friday, and the tvs were all blasting out sport in the bars, in later years the team organisers would come round and make sure that they were all turned off before the mass of attendees arrived.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

why did they just not change the date?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> why did they just not change the date?


they never thought of that


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## audiotech (Apr 17, 2012)

They think it's all over! It is now!


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> They think it's all over! It is now!


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## audiotech (Apr 17, 2012)

World Cup Willy - 1966


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>




Still the best world cup song ever. Also the second best England related song after this one:


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Still the best world cup song ever. Also the second best England related song after this one:


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> why did they just not change the date?


 
They were testing comrades' revolutionary discipline.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>




Rubbish. The only decent song on the Sandinista album was that one Tymon Dogg wrote and sang.


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## audiotech (Apr 18, 2012)

Pickman's model][quote="audiotech said:


> I was at Glastonbury, you know a PEACE festival, during the England v Argentinian game - on portable TV's, hanging out of festival goers cars and when Maradonna did his "hand of god" move and it turned into a re-run of the Falklands war from some. That wasn't enjoyable to witness.


 
Heavy dudes with dope and guns, someone wearing a _Skrewdriver_ t-shirt and _Class War_ paper sellers was a good one though.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Still the best world cup song ever. Also the second best England related song after this one:


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Rubbish. The only decent song on the Sandinista album was that one Tymon Dogg wrote and sang.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Still the best world cup song ever. Also the second best England related song after this one:




I always preferred this one:



And this comes a close second:


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## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I got a bollocking for sexism at Marxism for telling a lass she was my ideal woman.


oof! that's asking for trouble. ideal woman? you musta been like a lamb to the slaughter.


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## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> but if it was in a bar then presumably they wouldn't be discussing anything important then


shouldn't have been in the bar. if you were, you should have been talking to contacts.


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## elfman (Apr 18, 2012)

My memories of Marxism seem to be just hanging in the bar, drinking cider and talking shit with only one of the guys in our 'group' actually being in the SWP. Most of the meetings were pretty dull really apart from one where an old Italian anti-fascist guy spoke (quite emotional tbh) and my mate labelled UAF 'liberal anti-fascism' and provoked absolute outrage by the SWP members present


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

We were on a coach in Manchester coming back from a demo somewhere and New Order's World Cup song had just come out.A few of us were drinking some cans and were singing and at some point this tune was on the radio. So some of us joined in and some gobshite hack backed by a group of cringing studenty types launched into a furious tirade that we were supporting soft nationalism dressed up in post punk and that when at clubs we should be changing the DJ as to the insidious imperialism that New Order were inflicting up on the gullible clubbers of Manchester which was our duty to oppose as revolutionaries.

Despite what ever Lenin may have said the only words that i could come up with was' you're off your fucking head mate'


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

On South Manchester branch we had a bloke who rarely said anything but was an avid City supporter.I am not sure whether it was a deliberate ploy or because he was quiet that nobody ever really knew him that well. He used to have a little radio in his jacket and pop an ear piece in when the City away game clashed with branch or public meetings.

We were at some public meeting and the speaker was quite enthused when this lad Dave shouted out 'Yes, yes!' just after the speaker had made some telling political point. The speaker had clearly caught the mood of his audience and the level of rhetoric was ramped up. The speakers face and pitch then  changed rapidly  into a puzzled hesitancy and disappointment as Dave proceeded to shout 'I don't fucking believe it' and 'You twat' as unknown to the bloke speaking on How to Beat the Tories  City's goal was disallowed.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


>


 
Looks like the illustrated edition of The Revolution Betrothed could be a coffee table favourite.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## barney_pig (Apr 18, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Looks like the illustrated edition of The Revolution Betrothed could be a coffee table favourite.


This is truly a golden age


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

The Revolution Betrothed series:

http://www.meanwhileatthebar.org/betrothed/TheRevolutionBetrothed.html

A little bit dated in terms of its cast as most seemed to have changed their names!


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## barney_pig (Apr 18, 2012)

1917

Author: Sean Matgamna

Who fears to praise Red Seventeen? Who quails at Lenin’s name? When liars mock at Trotsky's fate Who adds his, “Theirs the blame”? Cain-Stalin’s knave, or bourgeois slave Will scorn the Old Cause thus, But honest men and women Will raise a voice with us.

We praise the memory of the dead, Of Lenin's friends long gone Who led the workers in revolt: An army, not a throng. All, all are gone, but still lives on The cause of those who died And honest men and women Remember them with pride.

They rose in war-torn blood drenched days To help set workers free Their own lives fed the living blaze That challenged tyranny: But bourgeois might half-vanquished right Some fell in disarray, Others spun ’neath Stalin s gun —And we strive still today!

We work to free all those who live In bourgeois slavery And glory in the names of those Who fought for Liberty. ’Trenched bourgeois might won’t vanquish right But fail and go astray. And honest and women Will speed them on their way!

Yes, we dare praise Red Seventeen, We honour Lenin’s name. Though cowards mock the old Red fight, We’re still in Trotsky’s game! Though Stalin’s knaves and bourgeois slaves Will scorn the Old Cause thus, Yet honest men and women Still voice this faith with us.

We hail the memory of the free, Of Trotsky’s ’durate few Who fought in France, Spain, Germany, In Stalin's Russia too. Though all are gone, they still live on, Their cause won’t go away And honest men and women Still sing their song today.

Then here’s their memory, may it be For us a guiding light That shows us workers’ liberty And teaches us to fight. Through good and ill continue still The Cause that thrives unseen, That brought the bourgeois tyrants down In Nineteen Seventeen!

SM


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

Loving the memes, chilango - keep 'em coming.


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Still the best world cup song ever. Also the second best England related song after this one:



This is England is not, for us purists, by the Clash at all.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

My work here is done...


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## JimW (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## articul8 (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## barney_pig (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


>


I knew that the brave new initiative of the comrades from wp to organise the inherent revolutionary potential of the middle aged proletarian masses, would attract the opportunistic middle class fake left. Tight trousers and ill fitting Fred perrys do not constitute a revolutionary programme capable of liberating the huddle masses of IKEA!
A scuffed brown leather jacket is the sign of a counter revolutionary cabal!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 18, 2012)

What about the Islip Unity Group? Are they still going ? Does anybody care?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 18, 2012)

JimW said:


>


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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


>


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> On Revleft you can set up user groups. There is, I shit you not, an anti-sex league group. It's not a joke and people have joined it on there and actually believe in it. It's like they've read 1984 and thought, "now there's an idea!"


 
I was a member of the Forkliftist user group over there.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2012)

Time for another poem from Sean i think:

LEFT WING ANTI-SEMITE

Why do you misconstrue my view?
Believe me, I don't hate no Jew;

And seeing what pure love will do,
What need have I for hatred too?


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## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

beautiful


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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Time for another poem from Sean i think:
> 
> LEFT WING ANTI-SEMITE
> 
> ...


 
Worthy of the great McGonagall himself.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

Bored of memes now. Time for another issue of "Retro"


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




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## mk12 (Apr 18, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Time for another poem from Sean i think:
> 
> LEFT WING ANTI-SEMITE
> 
> ...


 
Surely that's a joke.


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## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


>


 
This is brilliant.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18296


 
I've attended that meeting. Shit, I've chaired that meeting.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Surely that's a joke.


From his collected poetry: Treason of the Intellectuals


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I've attended that meeting. Shit, I've chaired that meeting.


I was the lead speaker at that meeting...


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

I was the audience...


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

. went wrong


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## mk12 (Apr 18, 2012)

Frogwoman needs some Photoshop lessons with Chilango 

BA gets a mention:



> WHY OUR FLAG STAYS RED
> The "Butcher's Apron", tri-colours galore,
> Flags of present might: paltry, passing things!
> Our flag, Flag of the proles and of the poor
> ...


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

yea for some reason it's come out horrible that picture


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## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

beaten by mk12


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

fucking hell yeh that's awful, i'm gonna delete it and start again


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## mk12 (Apr 18, 2012)

I think that would be best.


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

sorry about that  

is there anywhere i can download photoshop for free? the programme i generally use for this type of stuff can't really do this sort of thing properly it seems to me.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

http://www.gimp.org/

Does pretty much the same job.

For quick, simple online editing picmonkey looks quite good, though i've not used it myself as I have a computer full of image editing software at work!


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

cool, am downloading it now. i wanted to make a weekly worker james bond poster but it went badly wrong.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> cool, am downloading it now. i wanted to make a weekly worker james bond poster but it went badly wrong.


 
I know I saw...


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## mk12 (Apr 18, 2012)




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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

is there a way to get the right font?


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## articul8 (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i wanted to make a weekly worker james bond poster.


busy day, eh ?


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

Waiting to hear back from work, they should have some stuff to do that doesn't involve this type of thing.


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## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

This thread is excellent.


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## articul8 (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Waiting to hear back from work, they should have some stuff to do that doesn't involve this type of thing.


very few jobs these days in the "making mock covers of the Weekly Worker" industry


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> very few jobs these days in the "making mock covers of the Weekly Worker" industry


 
Shame really as that's where my skills are...


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## Jean-Luc (Apr 18, 2012)

I know this is a joke thread and that I'll be slapped down for wandering off topic, but if you go back to what the split was about and the reasons put forward by Simon Hardy they would seem to be those of (or implied by) most of those taking part in the fun here:



> The global capitalist crisis has posed tremendous questions for the radical left about how to go forward. We have increasingly drawn the conclusion that the historical legacy of the post-war left, in particular the Leninist-Trotskyist left, needs to be subjected to far-reaching critique and re-evaluation in light of the contemporary challenges.
> The organised left is dogged by sectarianism and opportunism. There are quite literally hundreds of competing orthodoxies, with each sect promoting and defending its own, typically very narrow, conception of revolutionary theory and practice without subjecting their ideas to the critical re-evaluation which we believe is necessary if Marxism is to reach out to far wider layers.
> We came to the conclusion that a method of organising exclusively focused on building specifically Leninist-Trotskyist groups prevents the socialist left from creating the kind of broad anti-capitalist organisations, which can present a credible alternative to the mainstream parties.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2012)

I think the reason that the above has not been discussed is because there's pretty much a conveyor belt of people who've been involved in trotskyist groups who come to these conclusions. There's not much to be discussed, not much that can be discussed.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

Not that I want to suggest for one second that old Jezza is a CPGB mole in the L5I. He's the just only one I could get a pic of to follow on from Nigel irritable's story.


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## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

was on me dinner break when this came on me mp3 player and i thought of this thread and the splitting splitters

XTC - generals and majors



**also, this clip really takes me back, it was totp on 18/09/1980 when the bbc was on strike! no crowd and simon bates scabbing...i have the full episode somewhere


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> is there a way to get the right font?


 
The fonts you can use are the ones you've got installed. If you want a particular type of font, go somewhere like dafont.com, peruse their fonts, download what you like, and install it, _et voila!_ you'll be able to use that font in your editing program.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Frogwoman needs some Photoshop lessons with Chilango
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That'd be why AWLers have been known to carry Israeli flags at Plestine demos then.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

This is quite possibly the worst "Poetry" i've ever seen in my entire life.


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## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

idumea said:


> This thread is excellent.


 
Nearly 8 and a half thousand views. This must be the most exposure Workers Power have had in years.


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## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Frogwoman needs some Photoshop lessons with Chilango


 
And i already asked Chilango yesterday

Chil, just start a thread on here before you get inundated mate


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

yeah, sorry, this isn't gonna work is it


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Moar memes please.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Moar memes please.


 
How's this?


----------



## Idaho (Apr 18, 2012)

So is this why lots of lefties don't like "trots"? Because they spend all their time hanging around in micro-groups bickering about theory and don't really help anyone?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## JimW (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

G-d, I wish I'd thought of that.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Thank you


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

here's my shit effort


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 18, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I've attended that meeting. Shit, I've chaired that meeting.


 
I once chaired a meeting on Palestine where the only audience members who turned out were a frothing maniac from the Revolutionary Communist Group and a mad Zionist Ultra-Orthodox dude from Central Europe. All things considered, I'd have preferred your meeting. It would have been less noisy. And there would probably have been less spittle sprayed on the floor.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 18, 2012)

Idaho said:


> So is this why lots of lefties don't like "trots"? Because they spend all their time hanging around in micro-groups bickering about theory and don't really help anyone?


 
No. Most other lefties don't like "trots" because Trotskyist groups, believe it or not, are the biggest and most successful thing left on the far left, and some of those people who are out organised by them, have no remaining political home of their own, or are in even smaller and less relevant groups (like the Anarchist ones) consequently resent that.

Also, quite a few people have more personal reasons to resent one or other Trotskyist group, usually the SWP.


----------



## JimW (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## barney_pig (Apr 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> No. Most other lefties don't like "trots" because Trotskyist groups, believe it or not, are the biggest and most successful thing left on the far left, and some of those people who are out organised by them, have no remaining political home of their own, or are in even smaller and less relevant groups (like the Anarchist ones) consequently resent that.
> 
> Also, quite a few people have more personal reasons to resent one or other Trotskyist group, usually the SWP.


Can you provide any evidence for this "success"?


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Can you provide any evidence for this "success"?


 
Less talk more memes.


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

32 pages, nearly 1000 posts. RED STORM you have created a monster


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

krink said:


> 32 pages, nearly 1000 posts. RED STORM you have created a monster


 
If we don't get a new workers party out of this thread I'll be very disappointed.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 18, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Can you provide any evidence for this "success"?


 
I think that perhaps you are confusing a description of the size and viability of Trotskyist groups relative to the remnants of the rest of the far left for a claim of massive success in absolute terms. Basically, Trotskyists are the tallest dwarfs in the left wing circus.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I once chaired a meeting on Palestine where the only audience members who turned out were a frothing maniac from the Revolutionary Communist Group and a mad Zionist Ultra-Orthodox dude from Central Europe. All things considered, I'd have preferred your meeting. It would have been less noisy.


 
This one is for you nigel.


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

Urban 75 Party? I'm sure we could fill a few more pages with graphics yet!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


>


 
I'm Josef Stalin and I approved this message.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

A like for every meme! Offer ends at midnight.

Disdain for anyone pretending that the Workers Power has any meaning in the real world and providing them with ammunition for their false image of grandeur.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> This one is for you nigel.


 
this is truly excellent


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

While looking for memes, I came across this:


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

lame, i'm tired


----------



## articul8 (Apr 18, 2012)

krink said:


> 32 pages, nearly 1000 posts. RED STORM you have created a monster


 
I posted it earlier on another thread and all I got was one lousy post by JHE (well it was OK but it's not 32 pages)!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I posted it earlier on another thread and all I got was one lousy post by JHE (well it was OK but it's not 32 pages)!


 
I'm afraid you lack the political gravitas of a heavyweight such as Red Storm


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> This one is for you nigel.



Good work!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm afraid you lack the political gravitas of a heavyweight such as Red Storm


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm afraid you lack the political gravitas of a heavyweight such as Red Storm


 
Fantastic


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I posted it earlier on another thread and all I got was one lousy post by JHE (well it was OK but it's not 32 pages)!


 
Don't worry its not a popularity competition. 

If it was...


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

*right must do some work


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

krink said:


> View attachment 18310


 
That's me


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

it actually looks a bit like me at that age too


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

krink said:


> it actually looks a bit like me at that age too


 
I meant that's me as in I'm so unoriginal that I can't think of Workers' Power memes


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

google 'workers power split'. This thread is 3rd and 4th hahaha.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> google 'workers power split'. This thread is 3rd and 4th hahaha.


 
But the only people ever likely to google 'Workers Power split' are already posting on this thread


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But the only people ever likely to google 'Workers Power split' are already posting on this thread


Apart, of course, from Workers Power themselves...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> Apart, of course, from Workers Power themselves...


 
I'd forgot about them


----------



## articul8 (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## love detective (Apr 18, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


>


 
where is LLETSA anyway?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

love detective said:


> where is LLETSA anyway?


 
I suppose he just got a life.


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

love detective said:


> where is LLETSA anyway?


 
ha! that's what i thought too!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

Ayatollah will see this as us being negative


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Ayatollah will see this as us being negative


 
All posters on this thread will be in BIG TROUBLE!!!!


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

Happy days


----------



## Idaho (Apr 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> No. Most other lefties don't like "trots" because Trotskyist groups, believe it or not, are the biggest and most successful thing left on the far left, and some of those people who are out organised by them, have no remaining political home of their own, or are in even smaller and less relevant groups (like the Anarchist ones) consequently resent that.
> 
> Also, quite a few people have more personal reasons to resent one or other Trotskyist group, usually the SWP.


 
I ask this question, or variations of it every year or so and always get a different answer. I am starting to believe there is no rational answer. I suspect it's a culture/subculture thing.


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

i was once told off for taking the piss out of this other dude over politics, my reprimander said it was a sign of alienation. never really got that.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 18, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> If we don't get a new workers party out of this thread I'll be very disappointed.


I might start one up, how hard can it be?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

We should invent our own uber-mental sect, with its own "unique" theoretical perspective and then spread it all over the internet. It could be like a game - 1000 points if it appears in the Daily Mail as a threat to civilisation/cause of cancer, 10000 points if it appears on the Glen Beck show as part of the leftist conspiracy and so on.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

1000000 points for a thread about it on urban75 not started by us.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We should invent our own uber-mental sect, with its own "unique" theoretical perspective and then spread it all over the internet. It could be like a game - 1000 points if it appears in the Daily Mail as a threat to civilisation/cause of cancer, 10000 points if it appears on the Glen Beck show as part of the leftist conspiracy and so on.


 
It would all end with us being jailed for conspiracy.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We should invent our own uber-mental sect, with its own "unique" theoretical perspective and then spread it all over the internet. It could be like a game - *1000 points if it appears in the Daily Mail as a threat to civilisation/*cause of cancer, 10000 points if it appears on the Glen Beck show as part of the leftist conspiracy and so on.


 
ICC beat you to it over a year ago.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> ICC beat you to it over a year ago.


 
Oh god that's amazing


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> ICC beat you to it over a year ago.


 
you parasite!


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> They'd be cool though...
> 
> View attachment 18226
> 
> http://www.proletariandemocracy.org



Fake lefty sect you say?

...here you go, from earlier in the thread.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

Did we ever work out the origin of the logo of that soap company?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> Fake lefty sect you say?
> 
> ...here you go, from earlier in the thread.


 
They're so dangerous and subversive that the government has taken down the website already.


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> ICC beat you to it over a year ago.


 
I'd forgotten what a slimey little toad porter is:



> Yesterday Aaron Porter, president of the National Union of Students, accused student groups of ‘aligning themselves with anarchists’.
> He said: ‘They attempt naively and opportunistically to align themselves with the anarchists – careful to distance themselves from human violence only when pushed, but revealing an appetite for other forms of violence when invited to.’
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331892/Tuition-fee-militants-picket-school-gates.html#ixzz1sPlhVCHr


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> 1000000 points for a thread about it on urban75 not started by us.


 
1,000,000,000 points for a thread about it on revleft where people express interest in joining


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

http://rncpgbml.wordpress.com/ There's already this out there.

Comrades, introducing the Revolutionary New Communist Party of Great Britian (Marxist-Leninist)


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

I'll have a a go at this - how about everyone contributes a sentence or two this group's "founding statement" it would be like the word association game  

*Denunciation of the petite-bourgeoise reformist defeatists of urban75 and its acolytes*

Recently Proletarian Democracy have been slandered by the most barbaric abuse put about by a rag-tag group of anarchists, Labourist reformist pseudo-revolutionaries, stalinists and middle class layers who behave in a lackadaisical way - therefore we have decided to formulate a response to this travesty. 

your turn


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

Whilst indulging the imperialist running dogs and cryto-fascist bourgeosis parasites of the so-called "left" with a gracious reply is an act of far greater generosity than they deserve, we nontheless have prepared a short written statement on behalf of our committee


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

In their ranks are capitalist lackys who are intent on corrupting the consciousness of the proletariat with the false hope of municipal socialism.

It is therefore essential that we counter this with a ruthless Marxist criticism, based upon a rigorous material analysis that enables us to present the objectively correct line.

This is the ideological weapon with which we will drown these parasites in the cesspit they call a home.


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

we'll need something in there about taking a bundle of our weekly newspaper [need a name for our weekly paper] to sell. can't think, food coming...


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> 1,000,000,000 points for a thread about it on revleft where people express interest in joining


 
Do it.

Take Proletarian Democracy to the advanced layers of the proletariat.

Bonus points for anyone who can get PD "trending on Twitter".


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

We also need a longer name. Provisional Committee for the creation of the 11th International for Proletarian Democracy?

Think that probably needs a bit of work.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

...but play it deadpan comrades.

Remember - Poker Face.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Has to signed off: "Long live Posadas!"


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

PD are part of the 7th International Spiney. Keep up or you're expelled.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> ...but play it deadpan comrades.
> 
> Remember - Poker Face.


 
Like this?


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

...We seek neither recognition nor recruits. To describe the structure of Proletarian Democracy at this time as 'Terrorist' is not intended as a smear or an accolade but as an _accurate_ political definition of how we operate...

Has to be included^

(the above is a passage is taken from the literature of a now defunct small leftist group in Britain. Points for anyone who can guess it right.)


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Has to signed off: "Long live Posadas!"


 
Seconded comrade, get it in the minutes.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

If you any of you want mocked up PD front covers, posters or graffiti you only have to ask...


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2012)

I've had enough already. I'm splitting to Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm well up for that. The Workers Bomb is a good idea. no irony whatsoever.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Didn't realise Proletarian Democracy had already existed before!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian_Democracy


----------



## JimW (Apr 18, 2012)

We thank comrade Tristram P-M for his position paper, 'Towards a Teleology of Post-Schumpeterian Analysis', a vibrant contribution to an essential real-world debate about the issues affecting workers today the most, and a timely shot across the bows of the leaking hulk of last-century leftism. Now available in pamphlet form, this coruscating polemic leaves in tatters the so-called arguments of the deviationist rump masquerading as Continuity Proletarian Democracy.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

> In 1978, Peppino Impastato stood as a candidate in the Cinisi council elections for Proletarian Democracy (Democrazia proletaria). He was killed during the election campaign on the night of May 8–9, by a charge of TNT placed under his body, which had been stretched over the local railway line[1] – a sinister twist of fate to the car-bomb that had killed his uncle and initiated Peppino's revolt against the Mafia. The same day, Christian-Democrat Prime Minister Aldo Moro's corpse was discovered on via Caetani in Rome. Two days later voters in Cinisi elected him as a councillor.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

They do things differently in Italy


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

For the organisation which harbours the most correct analysis in the spirit of Trotsky, Marx and Lenin to be described as "fictional" is insulting the mass of the working class who have placed its hopes in the Party. Our newspaper, Proletarian World, has long been regarded by the vast ranks of the working class (with the exception of municipal socialists, anarchists and defeatists) as the most correct analysis of Marxist thought.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

Whilst others on the so-called "left" have behaved like the worst type of revisionist backsliders, we on the other hand have remained a staunch anvil able to withstand the onslaughts of the hammer of capital!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

We alone have constistently defended the right of North Korea to initiate the Workers' Bomb which will destroy reformism and opportunism and bring socialism to the globe.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> We alone have constistently defended the right of North Korea to initiate the Workers' Bomb which will bring socialism to *what's left of* the globe.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

btw that "staunch anvil against the hammer of capital" thing was a genuine quote from an obituary from the Morning Star I once read.


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

I hope there's an entrance exam.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> ...We seek neither recognition nor recruits. To describe the structure of Proletarian Democracy at this time as 'Terrorist' is not intended as a smear or an accolade but as an _accurate_ political definition of how we operate...
> 
> Has to be included^
> 
> (the above is a passage is taken from the literature of a now defunct small leftist group in Britain. Points for anyone who can guess it right.)



WPPE ?


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2012)

idumea said:


> I hope there's an entrance exam.



Don't worry supporters can still pay solidarity rates for subscriptions.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> WPPE ?


 
Nope.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 18, 2012)

idumea said:


> I hope there's an entrance exam.


 
Naturally! We don't want to be letting the riff-raff in, after all.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Is it bad that I'm considering stopping my subs to the CWI so that I can join this group?

Actually yes, that is bad, I should remain in the CWI as a spy like that Nigel fella did!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> ...We seek neither recognition nor recruits. To describe the structure of Proletarian Democracy at this time as 'Terrorist' is not intended as a smear or an accolade but as an _accurate_ political definition of how we operate...
> 
> Has to be included^
> 
> (the above is a passage is taken from the literature of a now defunct small leftist group in Britain. Points for anyone who can guess it right.)


 
Not sure if they'd be classed as leftist or not but that sounds a bit like the ALF to me.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2012)

JimW said:


> We thank comrade Tristram P-M for his position paper, 'Towards a Teleology of Post-Schumpeterian Analysis', a vibrant contribution to an essential real-world debate about the issues affecting workers today the most, and a timely shot across the bows of the leaking hulk of last-century leftism. Now available in pamphlet form, this coruscating polemic leaves in tatters the so-called arguments of the deviationist rump masquerading as Continuity Proletarian Democracy.


 
Yes, but this has to be followed by "We denounce the pseudo-revolutionary gibberish and effluent of lumpen academia, the quintessential parasitic layer that epitomises the bankruptcy of the petit-bourgeois intelligentsia in the epoch of late capitalist imperialist decay."


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

> ...We seek neither recognition nor recruits. To describe the structure of Proletarian Democracy at this time as 'Terrorist' is not intended as a smear or an accolade but as an accurate political definition of how we operate...
> 
> Has to be included^
> 
> ...


 
Nope.

I'll give you the answer...

Red Action!

We sought neither recognition nor recruits. To describe the structure of Red Action at this time as 'Terrorist' is not intended as a smear or an accolade but as an _accurate_ political definition of how we operated (Making of Red Action, 1988).


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

That's reminded me, we need a really strange and unexpected position in imperialism. The AWL have the pro-Israel bit sewn up. We can't be pro-North Korea cos there's already loads of nutty groups doing that. What about being pro-Ulster Unionism? Maybe a United Front with the UVF or summat?

Or alternatively we could recongnise Cornwall's right to national self-determination?


----------



## Belushi (Apr 18, 2012)

Solidarity with Belarus


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's reminded me, we need a really strange and unexpected position in imperialism. The AWL have the pro-Israel bit sewn up. We can't be pro-North Korea cos there's already loads of nutty groups doing that. What about being pro-Ulster Unionism? Maybe a United Front with the UVF or summat?
> 
> Or alternatively we could recongnise Cornwall's right to national self-determination?


 
Fuck that.

Cornish stuff is covered already


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Reformation of Yugoslavia?


----------



## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

black country independence.


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

discokemit, I raise my fist in the air to that. Dudley Zoo and Castle to be the glorious seat of the new Workers' Soviet Committee. Let the spiritual home of the industrial revolution become the temporal launching pad of the revolution to come!

Alternatively, long live Canadian unity and down with Quebecois separatism.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

I've fucking got it! End the British Imperialist occupation of Sheffield! For a Democratic Peoples' Republic of South Yorkshire!

If this isn't part of either our manifesto or constitution me and my faction (that's me, our lass - though she doesn't know about it yet, and the dog) will split to form Real Proletarian Democracy, Committee for an independent workers' Sheffield.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 18, 2012)

Demand the repartition of Germany and the rebuilding of the peoples anti-fascist rampart.


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

Can the Black Country and South Yorkshire secede together or would you need to build socialism in one county first?


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Break up of England in general? Cornwall, Lancashire, Northumberland, Yorkshire.

Couldn't have an independent london though. It would be too powerful. Have to divide it like Berlin.


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

I would type 'yes! for the rebuilding of the Berlin Wall!' but I'm worryingly sure it's not fringe enough.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

idumea said:


> discokemit, I raise my fist in the air to that. Dudley Zoo and Castle to be the glorious seat of the new Workers' Soviet Committee. Let the spiritual home of the industrial revolution become the temporal launching pad of the revolution to come!


the first of the industrial working class will lead the way again. gie it sum ommer. bostin.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 18, 2012)

Dont' some left groups still have the off the wall idea that China isn't capitalist and some kind of "deformed workers state"?

I think Cornwall Independence is actually a genuine group. There is a Cornwall language I think.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

We could form a Federation. Obviously until the Civil war against pro-imperialist elements is won power would have to be concentrated in Sheffield Town Hall, just so we can more effectively direct our forces you understand. The Black Country will be granted full autonomy once the civil war is over though, honest!


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We could form a Federation. Obviously until the Civil war against pro-imperialist elements is won power would have to be concentrated in Sheffield Town Hall, just so we can more effectively direct our forces you understand. The Black Country will be granted full autonomy once the civil war is over though, honest!


----------



## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Break up of England in general? Cornwall, Lancashire, Northumberland, Yorkshire.
> 
> Couldn't have an independent london though. It would be too powerful. Have to divide it like Berlin.


london will have to pay reparations to the rest of the country.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Dont' some left groups still have the off the wall idea that China isn't capitalist and some kind of "deformed workers state"?
> 
> I think Cornwall Independence is actually a genuine group. There is a Cornwall language I think.


 
Nonsense. Cornish is made up, they just use it to confuse non-locals. Like Welsh.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We could form a Federation. Obviously until the Civil war against pro-imperialist elements is won power would have to be concentrated in Sheffield Town Hall, just so we can more effectively direct our forces you understand. The Black Country will be granted full autonomy once the civil war is over though, honest!


pfft. stagism?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Break up of England in general? Cornwall, Lancashire, Northumberland, Yorkshire.
> 
> Couldn't have an independent london though. It would be too powerful. Have to divide it like Berlin.


 
Plus I think the Home Counties probably need a dose of the workers' bomb. That's basically the seat of bourgeois/monarchist imperialism in Britain and beyond redemption.

We could also adopt Taffboy's daft idea that the domination of finance capital means we've moved back into feudalism. Obviously we'd have to use long words to explain why to give the impression of theoretical rigour and that.


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

discokermit said:


> the first of the industrial working class will lead the way again. gie it sum ommer. bostin.


 
The Midlands Will Rise Again, comrade.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 18, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_nationalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebyon_Kernow


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

discokermit said:


> pfft. stagism?


 
No, it's not stagism. It's a new formulation based on Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution - quite long lasting revolution/long life revolution/UHT revolution (not sure which sounds best yet).


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

I think we should have a minimum dead number post-revolution. Help us get in the papers too.

I've always advocated 5% would have to be killed.

All Lib Dem senior members
All tory party members
All aristocracy
Monarchy
All past and serving police
All officers in army
All members of fascist parties
All members of racist organisations
Scabs
Every member of the ruling class (10,000 I'd say)
General counter-revolutionaries.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Need to use gas chambers too so we don't demoralise the volunteers in the Proletarian Revolutionary Liberation Army.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think we should have a minimum dead number post-revolution. Help us get in the papers too.
> 
> I've always advocated 5% would have to be killed.
> 
> ...


 
Can we add hippies to that? If not I feel another split coming on!


----------



## discokermit (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Need to use gas chambers too so we don't demoralise the volunteers in the Proletarian Revolutionary Liberation Army.


are you saying that shooting tories would be demoralising? i think we should raffle off places in the firing squad.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Can we add hippies to that? If not I feel another split coming on!


 
They're counter revolutionaries.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

discokermit said:


> are you saying that shooting tories would be demoralising? i think we should raffle off places in the firing squad.


 
Personally I think shooting's ok so long as you don't try and do more than 2 with each bullet. Any more than that and the last ones might not die, then you have to stamp them to death with your boots and might walk brains into the house when you get home.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> They're counter revolutionaries.


 
So is everyone else on that List - Hippies need to be mentioned specifically - name and shame comrade, name and shame!


----------



## emanymton (Apr 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think we should have a minimum dead number post-revolution. Help us get in the papers too.
> 
> I've always advocated 5% would have to be killed.
> 
> ...


 
You missed of Bailiffs.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 18, 2012)

discokermit said:


> are you saying that shooting tories would be demoralising? i think we should raffle off places in the firing squad.


Maybe we could offer a reward scheme. The most productive worker in each factory gets to top a Tory.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> So is everyone else on that List - Hippies need to be mentioned specifically - name and shame comrade, name and shame!


 
That's Belboid expelled then


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2012)

There's an urgent need to define a position on the favoured labour caste question. If only so someone can find something irreconcilably objectionable about it and split to form Reasonably Competent Workers Vanguard.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Party decree on the decimalisation of time:

Unlike the parasitical, opportunist rabble that make up the so called UK left we , as the largest genuinely proletarian Party, appreciate that bourgeois control over the notation of time is yet another tool employed in the exploitation of the proletariat.

For too long now, radicals have ignored the significance of a clock and calendar with its roots in ancient superstition. Bourgeois time is based upon the movement of celestial bodies that have been worshiped by backward peoples.

Marxism is about Man's control over nature, not nature's, or God's, or Capitalist control over the real productive forces in society.

The Julian calendar is an imperialist construct, taking the names of months from the Gods of ancient superstition and Roman Emperors.

We decree that the passing of time shall now be measures according to rational, socialist principles.

The 1000 day Marx shall replace the year!

The 100 day Lenin shall replace the month!

The 10 day Trotsky shall replace the week - the fortnight shall be abolished!

100 seconds to the minute, 100 minutes to the hour, for a 10 hour day!

He who controls the past controls the present. He who controls the present controls the future. He who controls time controls nature!

Time is a weapon in the hands of the bourgeoisie, let us make it a weapon in the hands of the proletariat!


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Party decree on the decimalisation of time:
> 
> Unlike the parasitical, opportunist rabble that make up the so called UK left we , as the largest genuinely proletarian Party, appreciate that bourgeois control over the notation of time is yet another tool employed in the exploitation of the proletariat.
> 
> ...


 
Brilliant.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 18, 2012)

Proletarian Democracy; in the tradition of: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Posadas and Haile Selassie. 

(I really want one of those head banners - the ones with Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalins heads - but with Selassie replacing Stalin.)


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2012)

Thomas Sankara?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

Are there any sects (left ones, I know about the fash) that believe in conspiraloonery? Could be a niche?


----------



## idumea (Apr 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Party decree on the decimalisation of time:
> 
> Unlike the parasitical, opportunist rabble that make up the so called UK left we , as the largest genuinely proletarian Party, appreciate that bourgeois control over the notation of time is yet another tool employed in the exploitation of the proletariat.
> 
> ...


 
This is beautiful.


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

Plant Liberation. 

The bourgeois, reformist, ultra-left, stalinist, "trotskyist" opportunist, parasitic "left" with its craven capitualtion to bourgeois morality, has utterly ignored our greatest allies in the struggle for working class liberation in its endless oppotunism and capitulation to the interests of bourgeois social democratic trades unions. This exemplified in the posts in this cess-pit of bourgeoise "humour" about cats and dogs, not to mention people, who mercilessly exploit the plant world. 

Our party, the party which truly represents the proletarian milieu must rise up against the oppression of the plant kingdom and create a vanguard against Capital which will stop plants being exploited for their leaves, their fruits, and photosynthesis, and in so doing plant the seeds of a new society. No longer will the lumpen elements of the working class rely on carrots, potatoes and other plants for their nutrition as the current bourgeoisie force them to do. 

We say: 

No to plant exploitation and capitalist crop-growing! 
No to favouring animal companions against plant companions! 
Solidarity with the exploited and the oppressed. Against "weedkillers" and all other forms of plant genocide! 
For a workers' state which codifies into law the principles of the Atkins Diet, as a transitional stage to the abolition of all natural food! 
Join Proletarian Democracy today!


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Plant Liberation.
> 
> The bourgeois, reformist, ultra-left, stalinist, "trotskyist" opportunist, parasitic "left" with its craven capitualtion to bourgeois morality, has utterly ignored our greatest allies in the struggle for working class liberation in its endless oppotunism and capitulation to the interests of bourgeois social democratic trades unions. This exemplified in the posts in this cess-pit of bourgeoise "humour" about cats and dogs, not to mention people, who mercilessly exploit the plant world.
> 
> ...


 
tl:dr: - vegetable rights and peace man!


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

The layers of the working class are like layers of an onion. If you (or rather, if the capitalist bourgeois, the working class has no truck with plant-eating traitors) peel away the onion too quickly it will make you cry. In the same way, when the parasitic reformist sects who are part of the left-wing of Capital try to peel away and chop up the support from the marxist vanguard, the largest truly communist party in Britain, it will make them cry! And probably cut their fingers.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2012)

Entryism into the Lib Dems. Or actually maybe not.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 18, 2012)

And, as the outer (parasitical) layers of the Marxist vanguard are peeled away, we are left with only the most potent (in terms of making you cry) and solid core.

Opportunists claim that the number of splits endured by the true leaders of the proletariat are a sign of weakness. They are not; the vanguard, like the class itself, is forged in struggle. Those flinching cowards who desert the true vanguard are the outer skins; the couldn't hack the heat so they were removed from the kitchen. In the vegetable recycling bin. What remains is the pure, true, ideologically omnipotent force for the emancipation of the proletariat.

This process has now reached its end point. The Party is now ready to lead the working class to victory.

The party has shed its parasitical skin, now it is time for the workers to shed the parasitical chains of capitalist exploitation!


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## emanymton (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Plant Liberation.
> 
> The bourgeois, reformist, ultra-left, stalinist, "trotskyist" opportunist, parasitic "left" with its craven capitualtion to bourgeois morality, has utterly ignored our greatest allies in the struggle for working class liberation in its endless oppotunism and capitulation to the interests of bourgeois social democratic trades unions. This exemplified in the posts in this cess-pit of bourgeoise "humour" about cats and dogs, not to mention people, who mercilessly exploit the plant world.
> 
> ...


I was going going to suggest adopting speciesism, but i thought it might be a bit too silly.


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Party decree on the contents of the newspaper

At the recent meeting (prior to the parasitical intervention of the so-called "external faction" of Proletarian Democracy) it was unanimously agreed, other than the machinations of these parasitical groups, to eschew the bourgeois concept of "good design" for the party newspaper. It was agreed that all copies of the paper will henceforth be printed on two stapled together sheets of a2 paper, and it will not be allowed to be folded. In the dedication to carrying the newspaper around in this fashion we will display our dedication to the working class. The font will be 5pt yellow Comic Sans. As Marxists we reject the concept of "readability" a petty bourgeois shortcut to a revolutionary cause. If you cannot read the Party's most important document you are not fit to lead the working class, and in this way we weed out the vacillitating and opportunist layers who only want to be involved in proletarian struggle as it is "easy".


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are there any sects (left ones, I know about the fash) that believe in conspiraloonery? Could be a niche?


There is a gap for extra-terrestrial contact within the far-left, isn't there?. Something like Nibiru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_cataclysm


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> There is a gap for extra-terrestrial contact within the far-left, isn't there?. Something like Nibiru
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_cataclysm


 
The Posadists got there before you (not Nibiru but communist aliens).


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 19, 2012)




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## imposs1904 (Apr 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think we should have a minimum dead number post-revolution. Help us get in the papers too.
> 
> I've always advocated 5% would have to be killed.
> 
> ...


 

Someone's looking for a write up in tomorrow's Daily Mail.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Break up of England in general? Cornwall, Lancashire, Northumberland, Yorkshire.
> 
> Couldn't have an independent london though. It would be too powerful. Have to divide it like Berlin.


 
I'm ever so slightly concerned that we're using bourgeosis feudal political identifiers such as ancient counties as a basis for our revolutionary program comrade.

Much better to embrace the white heat of technocratic socialist progress and use something that reflects the material conditions of the struggle. Something like motorways.

So firstly we dig up the m25 and turn it into a moat. London must be destroyed to achieve full communism. We then reconstitute political identities around the motorways. I personally will be leading the faction that declares the independence and sovereignty of the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of the m62 corridor. Detailed plans have already been made to discuss which townships are allowed entry. Most of Derbyshire is not included, as are the leafier suburbs of Cheshire and the Wirall. Nottinghamshire is an official enemy of the state owing to their disgusting scabbing during the miners strike. And Harrogate, despite being geographically in the north, is a hold out of counter-revolutionary bourgeosis sentiment, and must thusly be razed to the ground.


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Party decree on the contents of the newspaper
> 
> At the recent meeting (prior to the parasitical intervention of the so-called "external faction" of Proletarian Democracy) it was unanimously agreed, other than the machinations of these parasitical groups, to eschew the bourgeois concept of "good design" for the party newspaper. It was agreed that all copies of the paper will henceforth be printed on two stapled together sheets of a2 paper, and it will not be allowed to be folded. In the dedication to carrying the newspaper around in this fashion we will display our dedication to the working class. The font will be 5pt yellow Comic Sans. As Marxists we reject the concept of "readability" a petty bourgeois shortcut to a revolutionary cause. If you cannot read the Party's most important document you are not fit to lead the working class, and in this way we weed out the vacillitating and opportunist layers who only want to be involved in proletarian struggle as it is "easy".


 
If I can't use Helvetica it's not my revolution!


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

I have this as an A4 print ready .pdf too if anyone wants it....


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## Geoff Collier (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> how on earth can you justify wanting england to actually lose the world cup on the grounds of socialism? I can understand not giving a shit about the "nationalism" or wanting to watch it for the football, being so disgusted with the england team you choose another team, but wanting england to lose in the hope it will start a pre-revolutionary situation as workers get disgusted with the bourgoisie organisation of fifa? come on


I was wrong. It stemmed from a faulty understanding of the concept of revolutionary defeatism in general.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18322
> 
> I have this as an A4 print ready .pdf too if anyone wants it....


 
Is that a rhetorical question! YES


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

Can't upload .pdfs on here.

any ideas of the quickets way of uploading them somewhere and linking?


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

http://www.sendspace.com/


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Proletarian Democracy; in the tradition of: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Posadas and Haile Selassie.
> 
> (I really want one of those head banners - the ones with Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalins heads - but with Selassie replacing Stalin.)


 
Here you go...


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18322
> 
> I have this as an A4 print ready .pdf too if anyone wants it....


 
Here's the link


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## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are there any sects (left ones, I know about the fash) that believe in conspiraloonery? Could be a niche?


 
I actually think the World Socialist Web Site were first out of the gate with 9/11 conspiracy stuff - I mean a day or so after the event.


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## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

wrt the change in time, I think we also need a new calender/year count system, whereby 1818 in the western/Julian calendar becomes year 0 in the Proletarian Democracy Calender - Before Marx (BM) and After Marx (AM).
This has the advantage of creating a ready-made disagreement for splits (I can see BL/AL [lenin] and BBR/ABR (Bolshevik Revolution) factions forming and splitting)

Is it wrong that I nearly registered www.proletariandemocracy.org?


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## Geoff Collier (Apr 19, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> I actually think the World Socialist Web Site were first out of the gate with 9/11 conspiracy stuff - I mean a day or so after the event.


I can't remember the name of the group represented by VN Gelis (don't say Aphrodite's Child) but they (he?) often sound like conspiraloons.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


>


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

...and it can be added to the website.

http://www.shtukoviny.ru/calendar/index.html


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> http://rncpgbml.wordpress.com/ There's already this out there.
> 
> Comrades, introducing the Revolutionary New Communist Party of Great Britian (Marxist-Leninist)


Who is this “Justin Bieber” with his “Baby”? What corrupting influence does he have on this nations children? To defame the Red Army in this manner is an outrage!
 tankies lol


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## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)




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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18322
> 
> I have this as an A4 print ready .pdf too if anyone wants it....


want.


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## mk12 (Apr 19, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Can you provide any evidence for this "success"?


 
Cue copy and paste of what Liverpool Council achieved in the 1980s.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Plant Liberation.
> 
> The bourgeois, reformist, ultra-left, stalinist, "trotskyist" opportunist, parasitic "left" with its craven capitualtion to bourgeois morality, has utterly ignored our greatest allies in the struggle for working class liberation in its endless oppotunism and capitulation to the interests of bourgeois social democratic trades unions. This exemplified in the posts in this cess-pit of bourgeoise "humour" about cats and dogs, not to mention people, who mercilessly exploit the plant world.
> 
> ...


 

In solidarity with our plant brothers and sisters who freely share with us their bounty, we denounce the reformist faint hearts huddled under the petite bourgeois banner of 'plant liberation'. 

In the name of the international proletariat we reject their opportunist pandering to one fraction of capitalist agri-business rather than another; it is not the place of genuine Proletarian Democracy to choose between would be executioners.

Accordingly we announce the formation Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) - Long Live the PDPFF


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## mk12 (Apr 19, 2012)

Surely you need to mention the plight of Lesbian Mongolian Spastics in the document of this new group?


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## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)

Fantastic stuff chilango. If anyone is fucked enough to bother, maybe put the pics up together somewhere. The last time something like this was done here (lolsheviks) it got nicked and a load of idiots put up lots of shit and unfunny pics on flickr and the like.


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 19, 2012)

mk12 said:


> Surely you need to mention the plight of Lesbian Mongolian Spastics in the document of this new group?


 
The Khrushchev-Brezhnevite revisionism of Tsedenbal has made a mockery of the Socialist achievements of Lesbian Spastics in the MPR.

In better, happier times:


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

I have to admit Comrades that I am disappointed by the lack of promotion PD is getting on Rev Left.

Build the Party! Sell the Paper! (when we make it)

Every member of PD should commit to making at least 3 social media interventions!

There's never been a better time to be a fake left sect!

Onwards and Leftwards!


----------



## JimW (Apr 19, 2012)

We reject chilango's comprador opportunism. Build the Paper! Sell the Party! Cushy parliamentary internships for all by 2014!


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## barney_pig (Apr 19, 2012)

Long Live the Brilliant Comrade!

The RNCPGBML has come under fire recently from unlikely sources, ranging from the ultra-revisionist CPB to the now fully Trotskyite embracing ‘CPGB-ML’ for its shoulder to shoulder solidarity with the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. It seems there are some, labelling themselves ‘communist’, who seem embarrassed by the appointment of the Brilliant Comrade Kim Jong-un to the National Defence Commission of the DPRK.

For us in the RNCPGBML there is no embarrassment. The Brilliant Comrade is an example to us all, together with Generalissimo Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong-un is leading the struggle against imperialism on the Korean peninsula.

Whatever the criticisms these microscopic Chernenkite-Wałęsaist maggots have of the government of the DPRK, forever on their ‘blogs’ and ‘websites’, we ask these so called ‘communists’ to respect democracy. The Korean people have spoken and we must respect that right. Unimaginably as it seems, should the Korean workers wish to voice their disillusionment, they have the right, indeed the duty, to express this democratically through the ballot box.

Some might wonder why they have not chosen to do so. For us in the RNCPGBML, we say…

LONG LIVE THE BRILLIANT COMRADE KING JONG-UN!


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

Personally I'm aiming for being a talking head at some thinktank.


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## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

What is the PD position on Kronstadt?


----------



## JimW (Apr 19, 2012)

The major errors of chilango-ism, a digest:

a) He takes a severely retrogressive stance on the question of Third World liberation movements;
b) He has a laughably nugatory understanding of the application of fluid dialectics in a pre-revolutionary upswing;
c) He monopolised chat time with the only lass ever to attend our meetings.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> I actually think the World Socialist Web Site were first out of the gate with 9/11 conspiracy stuff - I mean a day or so after the event.


 
Is that SEP or SPGB?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar
> 
> ...and it can be added to the website.
> 
> http://www.shtukoviny.ru/calendar/index.html


 
LOL no way! I genuinely didn't know about that


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> The major errors of chilango-ism, a digest:
> 
> a) He takes a severely retrogressive stance on the question of Third World liberation movements;
> b) He has a laughably nugatory understanding of the application of fluid dialectics in a pre-revolutionary upswing;
> c) He monopolised chat time with the only lass ever to attend our meetings.


 
Sadly, your use of racist terminology such as "third-world" shows that your support for the Peoples' War in Cornwall is half-hearted.

The other charges, I hang my head and fully admit. I am willing to make a full public self-denunciation.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Is that SEP or SPGB?


 
SEP. I think their conspiraloonery was the milder LIHOP version, though. Let It Happen on Purpose.


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

BigTom said:


> What is the PD position on Kronstadt?


 
errr. something about a worker's bomb?


----------



## JimW (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> Sadly, your use of racist terminology such as "third-world" shows that your support for the Peoples' War in Cornwall is half-hearted.
> 
> The other charges, I hang my head and fully admit. I am willing to make a full public self-denunciation.


And that this lass woman comrade was from Cornawall has in no way influenced you crass oportunism?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

I think we should set up one of them free blogs for Proletarian Democracy and upload everything on to it. I won't be able to do it on account of being a lazy bastard but it deffo needs doing.


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> And that this lass woman comrade was from Cornawall has in no way influenced you crass oportunism?


 
Nice pair of pasties. That was all.


----------



## JimW (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> Nice pair of pasties. That was all.


Our watchword for these times: We don't just want a bigger slice of the pasty, we want the whole fucking Greggs chain!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> The major errors of chilango-ism, a digest:
> 
> a) He takes a severely retrogressive stance on the question of Third World liberation movements;
> b) He has a laughably nugatory understanding of the application of fluid dialectics in a pre-revolutionary upswing;
> c) He monopolised chat time with the only lass ever to attend our meetings.


 
Perhaps Chilango should be educated into the ways of the MARX-MAO-MISHIMA-KOJIMA PATH in order to rid him of these priviliged, first-world delusions?


----------



## JimW (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Perhaps Chilango should be educated into the ways of the MARX-MAO-MISHIMA-KOJIMA PATH in order to rid him of these priviliged, first-world delusions?


Unlike the poseur chilango, I have spent a weekendpicking cocoa in the People's Free Republic of Kleptomania, which has given me a deep insight into the struggles of our brethren and sistren in the global south. Plus, the duty free rum was very cheap.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 19, 2012)

You didn't join the preceding People's War though, and slaughter any Eichmerikkkan pigs.


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think we should set up one of them free blogs for Proletarian Democracy and upload everything on to it. I won't be able to do it on account of being a lazy bastard but it deffo needs doing.


I'm knee deep in seven shades of shit at the coalface of proletarian struggle (destroyed a laptop with coffee and botched a desktop ram upgrade) and have no time at present for such bureaucratic trifles.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 19, 2012)

BigTom said:


> wrt the change in time, I think we also need a new calender/year count system, whereby 1818 in the western/Julian calendar becomes year 0 in the Proletarian Democracy Calender - Before Marx (BM) and After Marx (AM).
> This has the advantage of creating a ready-made disagreement for splits (I can see BL/AL [lenin] and BBR/ABR (Bolshevik Revolution) factions forming and splitting)


Year Zero has been done. Pol Pot got there first.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

and he had the right idea comrades! We should not continue to date our years according to arcane religious superstition - religion is the opium of the proletariat, and we must rid ourselves of this influence.


btw, saying that phrase made me think - if religion is the opium of the proletariat, then presumably opium is the opium of the bourgeoisie.  Therefore we should demand that opium beomces the opium of the proletariat -  Why should we settle for religion, which is barely a subsitute for opium at all? Free opium for all.  Possibly compulsory. Certainly any PD member not consuming opium should be considered suspect.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> The major errors of chilango-ism, a digest:
> 
> a) He takes a severely retrogressive stance on the question of Third World liberation movements;
> b) He has a laughably nugatory understanding of the application of fluid dialectics in a pre-revolutionary upswing;
> c) He monopolised chat time with the only lass ever to attend our meetings.


 
Perhaps this is the only way to restore Chilango's honour?

http://tubedubber.com/#7-8WcSpa7MU:sK8X5o-tVP0:0:100:0:0:1


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)




----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 19, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In solidarity with our plant brothers and sisters who freely share with us their bounty, we denounce the reformist faint hearts huddled under the petite bourgeois banner of 'plant liberation'.
> 
> In the name of the international proletariat we reject their opportunist pandering to one fraction of capitalist agri-business rather than another; it is not the place of genuine Proletarian Democracy to choose between would be executioners.
> 
> Accordingly we announce the formation Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) - Long Live the PDPFF


 
Communique 1

59/08/70 (AM)

For too long the petit-bourgeois rapists of the PDPFF have gone unchallenged. Their abject revisionism, which seeks to excuse their apologist accommodation to greed and plunder, has no place in the world movement for Proletarian Democracy. 

Therefore we declare them not only to be traitors to and outcasts from our movement, but demand that all real partisans of the international proletariat make it their duty to smash the PDPFF fetter on the emancipation of workers the world over. Comrades throw off your frutarian chains.

The true path to communism is only to be found on the sun lit road of sustenance through light; join us on that sun lit road.

People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD)


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


>


 
Kojima?, what's Masterchef got to do with this?


----------



## idumea (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18322
> 
> I have this as an A4 print ready .pdf too if anyone wants it....


 
Could you PM me one?


----------



## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> The other charges, I hang my head and fully admit. I am willing to make a full public self-denunciation.


 

*shakes fist at chilango*


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)

The PD culture section is now accepting slogan submissions from comrades for this piece as part of its latest propaganda drive.

Shit, that's a bit big, one sec.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

Now I can't think how to turn this into a slogan, but what I'm seeing there is a PD comrade, driving the train of the bourgoise train, containing the lizard rulers (david icke is right!) into the sea.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 19, 2012)

copliker said:


> The PD culture section is now accepting slogan submissions from comrades for this piece as part of its latest propaganda drive.
> 
> Shit, that's a bit big, one sec.
> 
> View attachment 18325


 

Communiqué 2

59/08/70 (AM) 

Stop the runaway turtle head of capitalism in its tracks.

Sustenance through light for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy.

(PCBDPD)


----------



## mk12 (Apr 19, 2012)

I think PD needs it's own discussion board. It needs to be aa place for robust political debate, from a generally left-wing and/or anarchist perspective. It needs to be a home to dogma-free political discussion, concentrating on everyday life rather than centred in the activist milieu.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2012)

I read that all the ones with M-L after the name are maoist


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Communiqué 2
> 
> 59/08/70 (AM)
> 
> ...


Excellent. Except maybe replace boring old plain 'capitalism' with 'late neo-capitalist chauvinism'. I'm saying, I mean, we in the culture section are saying 'late neo-capitalist chauvinism' a lot.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

mk12 said:


> I think PD needs it's own discussion board. It needs to be aa place for robust political debate, from a generally left-wing and/or anarchist perspective. It needs to be a home to dogma-free political discussion, concentrating on everyday life rather than centred in the activist milieu.


 
Comrade how will the True Revolutionary Agents and Proletarian Multitudes of the global south be able to pariticpate in your "forum" when internet access in global south is practically non-existant? This shows the extent to which euro-centric revisionism has crept into the thinking of Proletarian Democracy and stands as a warning sign against the further collapse of The Revolutionary Aesthetic espoused by Proletarian Democracy, which now stands over the precipice of backsliding fully into bourgeosis liberal social reformism! Only the comradely embrace of the MMMK path can prevent this rot from setting in any deeper!

The MMMK path has declared itself allies with the Proletarian Democracy movement within the global south, and supports the Proletarian Democracy struggle against the revisionist degenerated psuedo-posadists and social fascists of both the Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb and People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy. We mobilise those who toil beyond the euro-centric myopic horizons of the priviliged internet accessing poppinjays currently leading Proletarian Democracy into the gutter of Social Democracy!

We call for the foundation of A Provisional Committee for the formation of a Proletarian Internernational where we can unite to fight the traitors in our midst!


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Comrade how will the True Revolutionary Agents and Proletarian Multitudes of the global south be able to pariticpate in your "forum" when internet access in global south is practically non-existant? This shows the extent to which euro-centric revisionism has crept into the thinking of Proletarian Democracy and stands as a warning sign against the further collapse the The Revolutionary Aesthetic espoused by Proletarian Democracy, which now stands over the precipice of backsliding fully into bourgeosis liberal social reformism! Only the comradely embrace of the MMMK path can prevent this rot from setting in any deeper!
> 
> The MMMK path has declared itself allies with the Proletarian Democracy movement within the global south, and supports the Proletarian Democracy struggle against the revisionist degenerated psuedo-posadists and social fascists of both the Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb and People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy. We mobilise those who toil beyond the euro-centric myopic horizons of the priviliged internet accessing poppinjays currently leading Proletarian Democracy into the gutter of Social Democracy!
> 
> We call for the foundation of A Provisional Committee for the formation of a Proletarian Internernational where we can unite to fight the traitors in our midst!


 
Can I just check, are we supporting the Labour Party?


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## RedNaylor (Apr 19, 2012)

The MMMK Path is the ultimate synthesis of revolutionary aesthetic.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Can someone tell me which group I'm in please? I'm getting a bit confused.

In fact sod it, I'm forming my own splinter group, Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> Can I just check, are we supporting the Labour Party?


 
Lib Dems.


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## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)

Over 11000 views. The masses are behind us. If this isn't the cusp of a pre-revolutionary situation, then comrades, I don't know what is.


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Lib Dems.


 
Hughists or Cleggites? Or Lib-Dem Popular Frontists?


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## mk12 (Apr 19, 2012)

@copliker

4,000 more and Cliff would have claimed that's all that's needed to topple the state.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> Hughists or Cleggites? Or Lib-Dem Popular Frontists?


 
Continuity Beveridge Group.


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Comrade how will the True Revolutionary Agents and Proletarian Multitudes of the global south be able to pariticpate in your "forum" when internet access in global south is practically non-existant? This shows the extent to which euro-centric revisionism has crept into the thinking of Proletarian Democracy and stands as a warning sign against the further collapse of The Revolutionary Aesthetic espoused by Proletarian Democracy, which now stands over the precipice of backsliding fully into bourgeosis liberal social reformism! Only the comradely embrace of the MMMK path can prevent this rot from setting in any deeper!
> 
> The MMMK path has declared itself allies with the Proletarian Democracy movement within the global south, and supports the Proletarian Democracy struggle against the revisionist degenerated psuedo-posadists and social fascists of both the Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb and People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy. We mobilise those who toil beyond the euro-centric myopic horizons of the priviliged internet accessing poppinjays currently leading Proletarian Democracy into the gutter of Social Democracy!
> 
> We call for the foundation of A Provisional Committee for the formation of a Proletarian Internernational where we can unite to fight the traitors in our midst!


 
Your third-worldist, un-marxist approach is making you succumb to liberal degeneration comrade. We need to unite the masses of Europe around our banner. You can't have socialism in one country, whether that country is in the global south or not. I can see that you have not yet fully shaken off the chains of reformist Amnestyite liberal thought and subjected your petty bourgeois delusions to a ruthless Marxist criticism.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> Can I just check, are we supporting the Labour Party?


 
Are you accusing the MMMK of being "entryists" comrade? We are merely an Aesthetic Paradigm encapsulating the class struggle of the glorious 3rd world revolutionary masses.








RedNaylor said:


> The MMMK Path is the ultimate synthesis of revolutionary aesthetic.


 
welcome to the proletarian mileu comrade


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

When they ask me at the job centre what I've been doing to look for work this week I shall show them this thread


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Continuity Beveridge Group.


 


That would be the Armed Wing of the 59 Constituencies Sovereignty Movement? (59CSM).


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Your third-worldist, un-marxist approach is making you succumb to liberal degeneration comrade. We need to unite the masses of Europe around our banner. You can't have socialism in one country, whether that country is in the global south or not. I can see that you have not yet fully shaken off the chains of reformist Amnestyite liberal thought and subjected your petty bourgeois delusions to a ruthless Marxist criticism.


 

*applauds*














































*still applauding one hour later*


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Your third-worldist, un-marxist approach is making you succumb to liberal degeneration comrade. We need to unite the masses of Europe around our banner. You can't have socialism in one country, whether that country is in the global south or not. I can see that you have not yet fully shaken off the chains of reformist Amnestyite liberal thought and subjected your petty bourgeois delusions to a ruthless Marxist criticism.


 
The "masses" of Europe are merely capitalist lackey's, whose bloated stomach's contain enough food to feed the billions of masses in the revolutionary global south for a generation! We shall take no lessons from the apologists and running dogs of the hopelessly priviliged and imperialist-by-proxy charlatans of the so-called european "proletariat!"


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

i feel another split coming on.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> The "masses" of Europe are merely capitalist lackey's, whose bloated stomach's contain enough food to feed the billions of masses in the revolutionary global south for a generation! We shall take no lessons from the apologists and running dogs of the hopelessly priviliged and imperialist-by-proxy charlatans of the so-called european "proletariat!"


 
5 penalty points for not using the term labour aristocrat. (I got called that and a workerist on revleft lol)


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> The "masses" of Europe are merely capitalist lackey's, whose bloated stomach's contain enough food to feed the billions of masses in the revolutionary global south for a generation! We shall take no lessons from the apologists and running dogs of the hopelessly priviliged and imperialist-by-proxy charlatans of the so-called european "proletariat!"


 
But how else, other by uniting the workers of Sellafield around our Marxist banner, are we to gain access to the workers' bomb? Your utopian third-worldist ultra-left fantasies do you no favours. You represent a backward layer of our party that should have been sorted out during the previous splits.


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

*starts circulating pamphlet outlining how bankers and estate agents are in fact wage-labourers who are denied access to the means of production and distribution, economically degraded to _entrepreneur_ status and therefore proletarian and hence the only groups with genuine revolutionary potential in conditions of late capitalism*


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

I have to say that I'm not very happy with the way that PD seems to have capitulated to Maoist degenerated workers statism. Have you heard of a man called Trotsky? It would seem not


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Sends documents acquired through FOI requests round the Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time email list that show co-op is a CIA operative with links to the MI5.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> But how else, other by uniting the workers of Sellafield around our Marxist banner, are we to gain access to the workers' bomb? Your utopian third-worldist ultra-left fantasies do you no favours. You represent a backward layer of our party that should have been sorted out during the previous splits.


 
Once again we see the true colours of the first world Proletarian movement reveal themselves when subject to the piercing and all-penetrating light of the MMMK path. Our only regret regarding Sellafield is that Comrade Benn* didn't march the troops over those incalcitrant strikers when he had the chance! The rotting corpses of the counter-revolutionary vulgar posadists who make nuclear weapons designed purely to institutionalise and entrench global capitalist hegemony will make excellent fertilizer for those who toil in the fields of the global south! No doubt the food grown from this glorious act will taste even sweeter in the mouths of the exploited multitude as a result of it being grown with the corpses of the counter-revolutionaries we have put to the sword!

We can see here how the splitters of the Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb have secretly infiltrated the upper echelons of Proletarian Democracy to such an extent our comradely calls for the institution of a Provisional Committee for the formation of a Proletarian Internernational have fallen upon deaf ears! We are not a layer, we are an _Aesthetic_ no doubt the brainwashing and ritual sleep deprivation techniques implied by your no doubt state sponsored infiltration group have made it impossible for you to reflect truthfully and critically upon the objective material conditions of 3rd world revolutionary potential!

* who as a minor aristocrat will of course be liquidated come the glorious revolution


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

You've well and truly entered the parasitic milieu now comrade.


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sends documents acquired through FOI requests round the Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time email list that show co-op is a CIA operative with links to the MI5.


 
*circulates pamphlet arguing that that Information is the new Capital, creating, as it does, the ideological Hegemony without which the transmission of Capital would be rendered impossible by workers resistance, that State Information-Workers are the only truly politicised faction of the proletariat, that the CIA and MI5 are proto-revolutionary governing bodies, and that anyway SpineyNorman is a fucking wanker*


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> SpineyNorman is a fucking wanker


 
Onanism is counter-revolutionary comrade. These are serious allegations...


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Look at how far ultra-leftist Maoism has fermented degeneration and decomposition in our ranks and look at how this bourgeois deviation has affected the splitters once they left our organisation. If you want a study in the poisonous nature of opportunism in the workers' movement then this is surely it. First you denounce the workers' revolutionary potential and then you abandon the founding principle of our Party, the workers' bomb. You spit on the legacy of J.A. Posadas, possibly the greatest revolutionary the class has ever known apart from Trotsky himself. What's next? Saying Kronstadt was a bad idea?


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Onanism is counter-revolutionary comrade. These are serious allegations...


 
* puts on "If I can't wank it's not my revolution" T shirt*


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> * puts on "If I can't wank it's not my revolution" T shirt*


 
Petty-bourgeois individualism.


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Petty-bourgeois individualism.


 
Actually I can't argue with that.


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## sleaterkinney (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Onanism is counter-revolutionary comrade. These are serious allegations...


It was a Workers Wank - a Proletarian Pull, make an exception.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

We reject utterly the malicious state-sponsored smear campaigned waged by the as yet secret faction operating within Proletarian Democracy that accuse us of rejecting the tactics of Posadas, the man Trotsky could've been, and return this accusation by saying it is YOU who have betrayed the legacy of the great Posadas, by supporting the Sellafield 3rd World Holocaust Planning Committee (to give it it's proper title) instead of supporting the regime in North Korea who, as we speak, are developing Workers Bomb's with such regularity that it exposes the workers of sellafield for being the unproductive, lazy, priviliged and bourgeosis parasites they truly are!

We claim it is impossible for a workers bomb to be built by the hands of priviliged first world imperialist-enablers, who become obese and reformist by hoovering up the fruits of the labour that come from the oppresssed multitude of the 3rd world!

We challenge the Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb entryist layers to reveal themselves and participate in an open debate at the the summer school of the MMMK path, taking place in Pyonyang 4 Lenin's and a Trotsky's time from now. At this event we will be launching a Proto-Provisional Committee for the formation of a Proletarian Internernational so that we, along with the remaining loyal members of the Proletarian Democracy party, can put to rest the degeneration taking place within our ranks!

Long Live Posadas!


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## mk12 (Apr 19, 2012)

*starts writing "Masturbation and Marxism: A Wanker's Critique"*


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> It was a Workers Wank - a Proletarian Pull, make an exception.


 
What you're saying is that if we al _pull together_ we'd be able to have a _collective_ wank, that would break the confines of onanistic individualism that currently prevent true revolutionaries from indulging in said activity?


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## sleaterkinney (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> What you're saying is that if we al _pull together_ we'd be able to have a _collective_ wank, that would break the confines of onanistic individualism that currently prevent true revolutionaries from indulging in said activity?


Yes Cumrade!


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

Ironically, this thread is an example of mutual indulgent left-wing masturbation at it's purest.

Now where did I put that sock?


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

As Marx himself said, “Philosophy and the study of the actual world have the same relation to one another as masturbation and sexual love." (_The German Ideology_).


*sucks pipe sagely*


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## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> As Marx himself said, “Philosophy and the study of the actual world have the same relation to one another as masturbation and sexual love." (_The German Ideology_).
> 
> 
> *sucks pipe sagely*


 
Ceci n'est pas un pipe.

You will be denounced by the Belgian Surrealist Workers' Party.


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

swapped...


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

Oops that's a bit big...


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)




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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

That's the best thing I've ever seen Chilango and I'll love you for the rest of your life if you somehow make that into a poster I can buy and put on my wall


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> That's the best thing I've ever seen Chilango and I'll love you for the rest of your life if you somehow make that into a poster I can buy and put on my wall


 
the source images are probably a bit small for decent printing, but help yourself to the slightly bigger of the two jpegs and see how it prints


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## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)




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## Jean-Luc (Apr 19, 2012)

It looks as if this is turning into a mass debate.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> It looks as if this is turning into a mass debate.


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## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> It looks as if this is turning into a mass debate.


 
*snigger*


Have we done the "lower organs of the Party must penetrate the backward parts of the proletariat" gag yet?


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## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)




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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)




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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

this is what happens, comrades, once the scourge of counter-revolutionary Onanism has penetrated our ranks. These wanking jokes distract us from our vital task of reforging the Seventh International as envisioned by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky and Posadas. How are we supposed to reach out to the backward layers of the proletariat once everyone is standing there wanking.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

We definitely need to put all this on a blog or website or summat, it's too good to lose. Shame I can't be arsed really otherwise I'd do it


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Am I the only member of Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time? If so I am willing to merge with whichever other splinter group has the most lasses in it.


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

There's (at least) three different running jokes on here now.

1/ Workers Power split memes
2/ Trot/lefty memes in general
3/ Retro - Workers Powers middle-aged section
4/ Proletarian Democracy


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We definitely need to put all this on a blog or website or summat, it's too good to lose. Shame I can't be arsed really otherwise I'd do it


 
If someone wants to register a wordpress blog  for PD and pm anyone interested the login it'd be easy enough. I'll happily do the layout and design for it.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

I don't know how unfortunately  Hopefully someone will be able to do it, this is too good to be confined to this thread. We need to a serious web presence to take this to the working class!


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I don't know how unfortunately  Hopefully someone will be able to do it, this is too good to be confined to this thread. We need to a serious web presence to take this to the working class!


 
You (not necessarily you, but anyone) need to create an email address (hotmail, gmail etc. for PD, e.g. proletariandemocracy@gmail.com) 

https://accounts.google.com/SignUp?service=mail&continue=https://mail.google.com/mail/&ltmpl=default and

then use that to register a blog at wordpress.com.

https://en.wordpress.com/signup/

it's dead easy, and reasonably quick and painless. But less fun for me than dicking about in photoshop and is a bit of a pain for me as I need to stay logged into my accounts.


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## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

i'll do it, give me five minutes to register stuff and I'll start a pm convo

e2a: noooooo someone already has proletariandemocracy@gmail.com now I need to apply thought!

e2a 2: turns out I can't send a gmail verification code to my mobile phone as I've setup too many accounts  off to yahoo... unless anyone can suggest anywhere better?


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## chilango (Apr 19, 2012)

BigTom said:


> i'll do it, give me five minutes to register stuff and I'll start a pm convo
> 
> e2a: noooooo someone already has proletariandemocracy@gmail.com now I need to apply thought!


 


I'll do layout tomorrow morning


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Ok, I've done it. Workers' Blog.

Anyone who wants the login, just send me a PM.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

I registered realproletariandemocracy@gmail.com. I've set up the blog and anyone who wants the login and that just send us a PM.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> this is what happens, comrades, once the scourge of counter-revolutionary Onanism has penetrated our ranks. These wanking jokes distract us from our vital task of reforging the Seventh International as envisioned by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky and Posadas. How are we supposed to reach out to the backward layers of the proletariat once everyone is standing there wanking.


 
No doubt the Pathological Onanists of the Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb, represented here by Chief Onanist Comrade Frogwoman, head of their secret entryist faction, would like to reforge a 7th International rather than accept the generous offer put forth by the MMMK path to form a new Provisional Committee for the formation of a Proletarian Internernational. Our modest proposals would see the MMMK become the international section of Proletarian Democracy in the global south. No doubt they, the traitorous Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb, would see to it that the priviliged layers of european proletarians keep their wealth and positions of power intact at the expense of the millions, nay _billions_ throughout the 3rd world who are turning to the MMMK path. No doubt they would use this position to continue their onanistic ways at the expense of the countless hungry children we defend with our lives! 

We remain loyal to the Proletarian Democracy, and indeed our tendency, our path, shows the way forward in avoiding such splits and ill-disciplined hedonistic masturbation frenzies in the future. Consider the fact the average Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb member expells more protein from the end of their disease-ridden phallus's than the average family in the global south gets to eat in a year, the only way to end this madness is to embrace the MMMK path!



SpineyNorman said:


> Am I the only member of Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time? If so I am willing to merge with whichever other splinter group has the most lasses in it.


 
Indeed that would appear to be the case comrade, no doubt you prefer your isolation so as to indulge in your petit-bourgeosis individualist onanism, whereas we in the MMMK believe that onanism is a collective struggle, where we must all pull together!

Myself and Comrade RedNaylor on the other hand sit atop a committee of third world revolutionaries so disciplined that they will kill on our command. Their numbers are so great they are beyond counting thus are referred to simply as The Multitude. As of this time only two of our many comrades have access to the bourgeosis western "internet" in order to co-ordinate with our comrades in Proletarian Democracy, however at a time of our choosing we will unleash this force which will break against the bureactratically degenerated institutionally conservative leadership of Proletarian Democracy like waves upon the shore!! Unlike your splitting group of heretical revisionists and conscience stricken liberals we still remain loyal to the Proletarian Democracy movement, and thusly we have submitted a discussion paper to the CC of Proletarian Democracy outlining how the scourge of individual onanism can be eradicated by following a strict diet of cornflakes and milk, extracted from the breasts of counter-revolutionary female prisoners.


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## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I registered realproletariandemocracy@gmail.com. I've set up the blog and anyone who wants the login and that just send us a PM.


 
I've got proletariandemocracy@yahoo.com ... just got annoyed when found out that wordpress site was taken and no-one had even used it!


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

What are you talking about? We're not an entryist faction, how could we be when we have upheld the spirit of true Trotskyism since 1945, and how hypocritical of you, comrade, to denounce entryism when it worked so well for you in the past? Did you not claim that you were merely an "aesthetic"? And splits are the only way in which we will peel away the parasitical layers of the Party. The more splits, in fact, the better - it is vital that the struggle against the bourgeoisie, the lumpen and the labour aristocracy, and all of their reformist and ultra-left lackeys, be replicated and practiced in the Party - a sort of "mock test" if you will, in preperation for the final exam where the working class will attain the ultimate grade of overthrowing Capital. Practice makes perfect and it is only by practicing struggle through splits that we will ever achieve the perfection of Socialism.

Do you agree, comrade? Or will you sacrifice the principle of class struggle through constant splits on the altar of opportunist workerism?


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Their numbers are so great they are beyond counting thus are referred to simply as The Multitude.


 
Have you tried using your toes as well as your fingers?

(The above demonstrates that, whilst the MMMK's sectarianism makes it impossible for them to work with others in the proletarian movement, we in Official Workers' Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time are willing to put the movement ahead of our sectional party interests. The offer of a merger still stands for any splinter with lasses in it)


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## rekil (Apr 19, 2012)

Text looks well off but it'll have to do. Larger image should be here.
.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> What are you talking about? We're not an entryist faction, how could we be when we have upheld the spirit of true Trotskyism since 1945, and how hypocritical of you, comrade, to denounce entryism when it worked so well for you in the past? Did you not claim that you were merely an "aesthetic"? And splits are the only way in which we will peel away the parasitical layers of the Party. The more splits, in fact, the better - it is vital that the struggle against the bourgeoisie, the lumpen and the labour aristocracy, and all of their reformist and ultra-left lackeys, be replicated and practiced in the Party - a sort of "mock test" if you will, in preperation for the final exam where the working class will attain the ultimate grade of overthrowing Capital. Practice makes perfect and it is only by practicing struggle through splits that we will ever achieve the perfection of Socialism.
> 
> Do you agree, comrade? Or will you sacrifice the principle of class struggle through constant splits on the altar of opportunist workerism?


 
Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb claim to be a permanent "external" faction of Proletarian Democracy founded by Ex-Comrade Krink however as your communique's have proven you remained within Proletarian Democracy, whilst also having joint membership of Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb, in order to co-ordinate the infiltration and occupation of key bureaucratic positions as a trojan horse, a virus at the heart of the party, a cell ready to turn malignant and destroy the advancement of Proletarian Democracy so that the corrupted layers under the control of Krink "the Crank" can depose the leadership and have a counter-revolutionary coup! This plot has been exposed for all to see and now the task of dispensing summary justice should be our primary priority!

This has been done to prevent the Multitude of MMMK supporters in the global south from being able to participate fully, as is their right, as loyal members of Proletarian Democracy, from exercising the full extent of their power. No doubt they pose a threat to the habits and priviliges enjoyed by Krink's Crankish Comrades!

People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD) on the other hand are merely a rival faction, not worthy of serious consideration, who's sole intent is to compete with the MMMK path for the position of being the true vanguard of the revolutionary 3rd world proletariat, founded by Ex-comrade Louis MacNeice. Their pitiful attempts to draw people away from the MMMK path are met with incredulity and dismay by the Multitude, who prefer to sustain themselves not on counter-revolutionary labourist "Sunlight" but by eating kulaks. 

Your claims to being true to the legacy of Trotsky and his successor Posadas are easy to dismiss! Of course we are not an entryist group, we are simply an _Aesthetic_ as Comrade RedNaylor, my spiritual leader in the MMMK path, will no doubt able to demonstrate should he decide, in His wisdom, to grace you with a reply. In the meantime know only that we fully uphold the virtues of Posadas and the Workers Bomb, unlike Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb, or should I say Wankers Bomb, who would argue that the splits and discontent they have cynically spread within in our ranks is merely a test-case for future proletarian struggle! Ha! Diversionary tactics once again I see!



SpineyNorman said:


> Have you tried using your toes as well as your fingers?
> 
> (The above demonstrates that, whilst the MMMK's sectarianism makes it impossible for them to work with others in the proletarian movement, we in Official Workers' Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time are willing to put the movement ahead of our sectional party interests. The offer of a merger still stands for any splinter with lasses in it)


 
We all know what your "sectional party interests" are comrade  We obtained a copy of your yearly "perspectives" document however we couldn't read past the introductory chapter as all the pages were stuck together. We reject your offer of a merger!


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

I wasn't offering it to you as you have no lasses in your sect


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

The Proletarian Democracy blog has had 9 views already, which I think is probably more exposure than Workers' Power have had in their lifetime, and there's not even anything on there yet


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

International exposure in fact, it's been viewed in the UK, Ireland, Singapore and Italy!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Your denunciation of our methods demonstrates you are not fit to lead the working class and are making a mockery of democratic centralism. If you cannot countenance the thought of even one split under favourable material conditions, what hope do you have of surviving the thousands and thousands of splits which will take place in the proletarian milieu under a counter-revolutionary, reactionary assault by the bourgeoisie, screws, cops, and other running dogs of Imperialism. During the coming period we will be severely tested and it is essential that we arm ourselves. What better way to do that than preparing the ground by fighting an internal factional struggle and provoking split after split which will drive away all but the most loyal cadres.

Your weakness and inability to stomach the thought of even a few splits betrays the fact that you have abandoned the working class in place of vanguardist substitutionism.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Hey frogwoman, you're a lass and I bet there's other lasses in your sect too. We could merge, and the inevitable tensions that would come out of that would lead to yet more splits, providing the grindstone against which we will sharpen our analysis and perfect the leadership of the proletariat!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)

I'd stay away from SpineyNorman girls, he's a bit of a crap shag.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 19, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> I'd stay away from SpineyNorman girls, he's a bit of a crap shag.


 
I was ill that day as you well know Idris and you promised you'd never tell anyone


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 19, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD) on the other hand are merely a rival faction, not worthy of serious consideration, who's sole intent is to compete with the MMMK path for the position of being the true vanguard of the revolutionary 3rd world proletariat, founded by Ex-comrade Louis MacNeice. Their pitiful attempts to draw people away from the MMMK path are met with incredulity and dismay by the Multitude, who prefer to sustain themselves not on counter-revolutionary labourist "Sunlight" but by eating kulaks.


 
Communiqué 3
59/08/70 (AM)

The slide of erstwhile comrade Booth into the cesspit of bourgeois idealist individualism is now complete. 

The international proletariat, if it is to fulfil its historic emancipatory mission for all humanity, does not need to look to some revisionist abstraction of 'Sunlight', the stuff of Booth's degenerate imaginings. Rather it is the life giving actuality of real sunshine that will sustain the workers of the world as we strive together to build our communist future. 

If Booths', and by association his plaything, the so called MMMK's idealism were not sufficient evidence and condemnation of his capitalistic back sliding, he and they are equally accused and found guilty of poisonous individualism, by dint of his infantile name calling attack on Louis MacNeice. It is obvious to the world proletariat, and would be obvious to Booth and his phantom MMMK if they weren't so totally and irrevocably lost to the cause of interactional communist revolution, that we have moved beyond the decrepit moribund forms of bourgeois naming.

No to names - forward to the collective will!

No to food and drink - on into the sustaining light!

(PCBDPD)


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2012)

"No to names - forward to the collective will!"

So saith Brother No. 1.


----------



## idumea (Apr 19, 2012)

Marvelous work, comrades. Marvelous.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 19, 2012)

I do hope someone makes a wikipedia page for Proletarian Democracy, including all the splits and sub-groups within it.


----------



## idumea (Apr 19, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> "No to names - forward to the collective will!"
> 
> So saith Brother No. 1.


 
While I recognise your right to self-nominative-designation, I must admit to disappointment of your automatic use of the gendered term 'Brother', Brother No. 1. Surely _Comrade_ No. 1, 2, 3, etc.


----------



## co-op (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm working on a Popular Front strategy which will reach out to the left wing of the conservative party and create a genuine mass movement of _all_ workers. Forward Comrades!


----------



## Jean-Luc (Apr 19, 2012)

co-op said:


> I'm working on a Popular Front strategy which will reach out to the left wing of the conservative party and create a genuine mass movement of _all_ workers. Forward Comrades!


It's already been done. All you need do is copy the programme of the Communist Party in the late 1930s.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Once again we see the horrific depths which the Co-opites have sunk in their workerist degeneration. In their rush to attract "all workers" to the proletarian programme they have opportunistically adapted themselves to the class traitors, petty bourgeois and capitalists which make up the ranks of the Conservative Party. If this is not grounds for another split I don't know what is!


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

Just to wind back ages in the thread, the Birmingham Communist Corresponance Society have announced their next public meeting:

CCS Birmingham ‏ @BhamCCS  

Public Meeting: "*From Jet Packs to Climate Catastrophe: Whatever Happened to the Future*?" - Thursday 3rd May, 19:30, Bennetts Pub. 

They have some wonderful titles to their meetings  Perhaps I should take some PD literature along with me


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 19, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Just to wind back ages in the thread, the Birmingham Communist Corresponance Society have announced their next public meeting:
> 
> CCS Birmingham ‏ @BhamCCS
> 
> ...


 
They sound very SPGBish are they a split from them?


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> They sound very SPGBish are they a split from them?


 
I have absolutely no idea, this is their website: http://communistcorrespondingsociety.org/index.html


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 19, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> They sound very SPGBish are they a split from them?


 
No. Left Communists who have some sort of relationship with the ICC.

*eta: *Actually, I may be mixing them up with a Midlands discussion from a years ago. Apologies.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 19, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> No. Left Communists who have some sort of relationship with the ICC.


 
Doesn't everyone


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Do an intervetion


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 19, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> *eta: *Actually, I may be mixing them up with a Midlands discussion from a years ago. Apologies.


 
Thats the Midlands Discussion Forum who I believe are connected with the CWO and may indeed be a front group.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

it's sad see such a worthy comrade as bigtom brazenly enter the parasitic milieu like that


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 19, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Thats the Midlands Discussion Forum who I believe are connected with the CWO and may indeed be a front group.


 
I think some ICC members or sympathisers were also involved. But I'm talking about 7 or 8 years ago. It may have changed a fair bit since then.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> it's sad see such a worthy comrade as bigtom brazenly enter the parasitic milieu like that


 
Burgle his house and steal his laptop?


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> Here you go...
> 
> View attachment 18324


 
Amazing!


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> it's sad see such a worthy comrade as bigtom brazenly enter the parasitic milieu like that


 
I'm only doing it so I can denounce them during their event. I believe that we've already rejected entryism as a tactic, but I cannot allow such a group to continue undenounced until they accept the need for the workers bomb.



Spanky Longhorn said:


> Burgle his house and steal his laptop?


 
An excellent plan, with just one flaw, I have no laptop


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Thats the Midlands Discussion Forum who I believe are connected with the CWO and may indeed be a front group.


That was based around the notts ICC/mushroom shop - i went  a few times whan i was uop in derby for a while, all ICC.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Burgle his house and steal his laptop?


 
desperate times call for desperate measures!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

this thread will probably trigger a 14-page denunciation of Proletarian democracy on the ICC's website now.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> it's sad see such a worthy comrade as bigtom brazenly enter the parasitic milieu like that


 
Actually, I was just going to bluff, but what is the "parasitic milieu"? I could look it up I suppose but I can't be arsed.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Read this lol and then you'll find out. 

Or maybe not 

http://en.internationalism.org/ir/94_parasitism


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2012)

maybe later  (I am actually going out now, but it doesn't look like something I particularly want to read  )


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Yeah, it's not really something that anyone wants to read. there are some real gems in there though


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2012)

Is this me or does this from the ICC sound like a threat? 

*



			Communist Revolution or the destruction of humanity!
		
Click to expand...

*


----------



## Retro Specs (Apr 19, 2012)

I'll see if I can dig out a copy of the Bi-Quarterly Stalin to upload. The issue had a headline about buddhist monks and Myanmar being counter-revolutionaries.

By a strange coincidence I'm one of the splitters and came across this thread after looking up the Brixton barrier block....


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

You should join Proletarian Democracy.


----------



## elfman (Apr 20, 2012)

I only want to see pictures. Cba reading shit. Post moar picz plz!!!


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2012)

http://proletariandemocracy.wordpress.com/


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2012)

idumea said:


> While I recognise your right to self-nominative-designation, I must admit to disappointment of your automatic use of the gendered term 'Brother', Brother No. 1. Surely _Comrade_ No. 1, 2, 3, etc.


 
Pah.

Delegate Zero beats all of that...


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2012)

Okay, I've pasted a few bits into the blog...feel free to add more...


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2012)

Need a name for the paper. Proletarian Bugle?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 20, 2012)

copliker said:


> Need a name for the paper. Proletarian Bugle?


 
The Cheadle Clarion ( Arise ye mighty workers) is copyrighted .

I


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 20, 2012)

the CPGB-ML already have The Proletarian don't they?

Sometimes satire is not enough


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 20, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> the CPGB-ML already have The Proletarian don't they?
> 
> Sometimes satire is not enough


 
Proletarian Satyr, then, and for the women's section "Nympho's Voice".


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

That blog looks ready to take to revleft!

 I'm banned though


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Ironically, this thread is an example of mutual indulgent left-wing masturbation at it's purest.
> 
> Now where did I put that sock?


12500 views tells its own story. The blog has been viewed in Germany and the US today. Hopefully the  Singaporean comrade will return over the weekend.


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2012)

copliker said:


> 12500 views tells its own story. The blog has been viewed in Germany and the US today. Hopefully the Singaporean comrade will return over the weekend.


 
I'm pretty sure if we get more than one view from a location we can count it as a branch. That's the usual method, right?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 20, 2012)

So who is going to produce a letter for the Weekly Worker announcing the formation of PD?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 20, 2012)

They already know all of 39thStep's email addresses and writing styles


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2012)

chilango said:


> I'm pretty sure if we get more than one view from a location we can count it as a branch. That's the usual method, right?


I think we can assume that the number of thread and blog views will continue to increase at this rate so I see no reason not to claim that this is most successful trotskyite sect ever.

@ProletarianDem on the twitter machine. PM for login.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2012)

copliker said:


> Need a name for the paper. Proletarian Bugle?


 

sounds like a euphamism for amphetamine


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 20, 2012)

When will a badge/t shirt be available? Also has anyone got one of those plastic things for keeping copied of P Bugle dry on a sale?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 20, 2012)

*Proletarian Democracy – Exchange Group*

*Founding statement*

It must be obvious to anyone observing the activity of Proletarian Democracy (PD) that we are currently riven with debilitating factionalism. One glance at the alphabet soup of would be vanguards provides evidence enough: 

Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time(OPD:CPT)​ 
Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb (APD – WB)​ 
People's Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD)​ 
Proletarian Democracy (Posadist) (PD(P))​ 
Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) (PDPFF)​ 
Marx Mao Mishima Kojima Path (MMMK)​ 


It is in opposition to this factionalism that we declare the formation of the Exchange Group (EG).

We only exist to facilitate dialogue, clarification and reconciliation in the currently divided ranks of PD. We will only exist for as long as such dialogue, clarification and reconciliation are needed. 

As such the Exchange Group must be understood not as another competing faction within PD, but rather as the means of moving beyond such factions and factionalism; in this, it is objectively at the leading edge of the advanced workers massing under the banner of Proletarian Democracy. 

The first act of the Exchange Group is to invite all genuine Proletarian Democrats to submit for discussion, their theses on the defining principles of Proletarian Democracy as the highest expression of the historic project of communism.

Proletarian Democracy – Exchange Group 
(70/02/51 AC)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

We in PD have no truck with bourgeois "plastic sheeting". Anyone not willing to remove a section of their own skin to use to cover their papers in the event of rain is frankly unworthy of calling themselves a comrade.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We in PD have no truck with bourgeois "plastic sheeting". Anyone not willing to remove a section of their own skin to use to cover their papers in the event of rain is frankly unworthy of calling themselves a comrade.


We used to think that anyone who covered their papers in anything was a right deviationist


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 20, 2012)

mk12 said:


> So who is going to produce a letter for the Weekly Worker announcing the formation of PD?


The WW letters editor, a post which does actually exist, is a FB friend of mine. Just thought i'd say that and bask in reflected glory


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

Are you hinting that your friendship with this all powerful, faceless bureaucrat makes you the best person to write the letter introducing PD to the millions of proletarians who hang on the every word of the Weekly Worker Geoff? If so I agree.


----------



## krink (Apr 20, 2012)

> Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers' Bomb (APD – WB)


 
Is that me?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

I have an excellent plan for taking PD to the working class: an internet intervention. Anyone who takes an interest in the real movement for proletarian democracy should PM me, since this needs to be done out of the range of prying eyes.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are you hinting that your friendship with this all powerful, faceless bureaucrat makes you the best person to write the letter introducing PD to the millions of proletarians who hang on the every word of the Weekly Worker Geoff? If so I agree.


No, I was just bragging


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

Well, in that case in order to atone for your bourgeois individualist "bragging" I think you should write the letter regardless.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 20, 2012)

Comrade, to the writing desk!


----------



## audiotech (Apr 20, 2012)

....and prepare for the next slogan!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

Proletarian Democracy have just been called liberals by on twitter by ernoestolynch. We've arrived comrades!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 20, 2012)

And effete beans


----------



## rekil (Apr 20, 2012)

Some pics thrown up willy nilly up on blog agitprop page. Attention current hegemonic tendency: 'weekend' or not, the 'About' section needs a few words.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 21, 2012)

copliker said:


> Need a name for the paper. Proletarian Bugle?


 
Should call i t the Trotksyite Crank because that'll also be a likely description of the person selling it too


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2012)

Why should any form of cover for the papers be necessary? The words of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and Posadas should stand on their own regardless of whether it rains or not. The tried and tested Marxist analysis should stand the test of any kind of weather Capital may throw at us. Did you not read our latest internal document where it was agreed by the Central Committee to reject the bourgeois use of raincoats and umbrellas in the event of bad weather, and use our papers as a literal Marxist shield. They are a2 size (or are if you're not in the parasitic swamp) so it should work!

No to umbrellas - for a workers' rain cover! As the paper defends our comrades against rain, snow and hail, so it will be the only umbrella worthy of keeping us dry in the final storms of capitalist decay!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Should call i t the Trotksyite Crank because that'll also be a likely description of the person selling it too


 
Yet again you undermine the unity of our organisation, "comrade", first by rejecting the onion theory of proletarian struggle, and now by casting aspersions on comrades' mental health


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 21, 2012)

copliker said:


> Some pics thrown up willy nilly up on blog agitprop page. Attention current hegemonic tendency: 'weekend' or not, the 'About' section needs a few words.



The lack of an online 'join PD' area is also a serious oversight. It is preventing the class from massing behind our banner. 

Build it. And they will come.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 21, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The lack of an online 'join PD' area is also a serious oversight. It is preventing the class from massing behind our banner.
> 
> Build it. And they will come.


 
You should do it in the form of a questionnaire though and if they fail they don't join.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 21, 2012)

Arrgh stop making me feel guilty!


----------



## BigTom (Apr 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Proletarian Democracy have just been called liberals by on twitter by ernoestolynch. We've arrived comrades!


 
What's the twitter feed? Can't find it with a search for proletarian democracy, twitter just throws up New Internationalist


----------



## raknor (Apr 21, 2012)

BigTom said:


> What's the twitter feed? Can't find it with a search for proletarian democracy, twitter just throws up New Internationalist


 
Same here, I really want to push the transitional demands for the workers clock across twitter to encourage the masses to joining with the Poletarian Democracy but I don't have all Trotsky to do it!!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 21, 2012)

On my phone so I can't post a link, but if your search for @ProletarianDem on twitter you should find it.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 21, 2012)

https://twitter.com/#!/ProletarianDem


----------



## raknor (Apr 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> On my phone so I can't post a link, but if your search for @ProletarianDem on twitter you should find it.


Despite the fact that I'm now following, it doesn't appear to come up when searching on twitter, had to link in with the PD website, the capitalist lackeys are obviously running scared of the might of the Proletarian Democracy


----------



## BigTom (Apr 21, 2012)

raknor said:


> Despite the fact that I'm now following, it doesn't appear to come up when searching on twitter, had to link in with the PD website, the capitalist lackeys are obviously running scared of the might of the Proletarian Democracy


 
Yeah, I'm the same, can't find it in a search, but the direct link works. Odd, presumably a database issue that'll work itself out in the next few days.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 21, 2012)

It often takes a while before you can search people, anything from a couple of hours to a couple of days.


----------



## rekil (Apr 21, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The lack of an online 'join PD' area is also a serious oversight. It is preventing the class from massing behind our banner.
> 
> Build it. And they will come.


It was no oversight. You have ripped the duvet off the proletarian democratic bed to reveal the soiled sheets of degenerate chilango-ist infantilism and its sordid self-orbiting anti-democratic centralist nucleus, so to speak.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 21, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The lack of an online 'join PD' area is also a serious oversight. It is preventing the class from massing behind our banner.
> 
> Build it. And they will come.


I was all ready to join and everything but as I couldn't I became a tory instead.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 21, 2012)

To skip back to a conversation that was going on about 20 pages ago about how someone should make a sitcom set on the left, I discovered today that RTE Radio's Green Tea comedy show does regular sketches featuring Joe Higgins and Clare Daly of the Socialist Party and Richard Boyd Barrett of the SWP and People Before Profit.

Apparently Joe is portrayed as the long-suffering elder statesman who is always having to explain things to Richard, who is portrayed as an excitable child.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 21, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> To skip back to a conversation that was going on about 20 pages ago about how someone should make a sitcom set on the left, I discovered today that RTE Radio's Green Tea comedy show does regular sketches featuring Joe Higgins and Clare Daly of the Socialist Party and Richard Boyd Barrett of the SWP and People Before Profit.
> 
> Apparently Joe is portrayed as the long-suffering elder statesman who is always having to explain things to Richard, who is portrayed as an excitable child.


 
I think Louis Proyect said it best;

"It is not just that they (comedy writers) must have endured suffering. Their comedy must incorporate socially uplifting messages like in Vitaly Zhdanovsky’s glorious 1936 comedy “The tractor goes missing”."


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 21, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> https://twitter.com/#!/ProletarianDem


 
Oh look.  Ern is there, doing his tired act.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 21, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> Year Zero has been done. Pol Pot got there first.


 
He didn't and there was no change.  His alleged 'Year Zero' was merely a historical analogy to the calendar used by the French from 1793.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That blog looks ready to take to revleft!
> 
> I'm banned though


 
What did you get banned for?  Mind you, it seems people can get banned pretty easily over there.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 21, 2012)

http://www.workerspower.co.uk/2012/04/sri-lanka-towards-a-new-party-after-jvp-splits/

Quite an interesting article on Sri Lanka from WP, but completely fucking bonkers at the same time, 30 British people making a serious proposal to 5000 members of a split from one of SL's leading parties.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 21, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> What did you get banned for? Mind you, it seems people can get banned pretty easily over there.


 
Trolling. To be fair they had me bang to rights lol


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 21, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> http://www.workerspower.co.uk/2012/04/sri-lanka-towards-a-new-party-after-jvp-splits/
> 
> Quite an interesting article on Sri Lanka from WP, but completely fucking bonkers at the same time, 30 British people making a serious proposal to 5000 members of a split from one of SL's leading parties.


 
I saw that and re-tweeted it on the PD twitter for the lols. Maybe the true leadership of the proletariat, Proletarian Democracy obviously, should make a proposal too?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 21, 2012)

The JVP had a failed uprising in the early 1970s with thousands killed, not including their later insurrectionary activity.

Proletarian Democracy needs a set-piece bloodbath.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 21, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> http://www.workerspower.co.uk/2012/04/sri-lanka-towards-a-new-party-after-jvp-splits/
> 
> Quite an interesting article on Sri Lanka from WP, but completely fucking bonkers at the same time, 30 British people making a serious proposal to 5000 members of a split from one of SL's leading parties.


 
The article is already out of date. The Sri Lankan split from the JVP has now formed the Frontline Socialist Party. Orienting towards them is a pretty sensible thing to do for any activist group in Sri Lanka.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 21, 2012)

It was written in April to be fair.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 21, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> He didn't and there was no change. His alleged 'Year Zero' was merely a historical analogy to the calendar used by the French from 1793.


Who used Year zero before him?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> It was written in April to be fair.


 
It's April now? or Luxembourg as you call it.


----------



## rekil (Apr 21, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Oh look. Ern is there, doing his tired act.


Tighter rein needed there, the feed should look fairly legit. Poker face. Sub committee formed to look into it.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 21, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> It's April now? or Luxembourg as you call it.


 
That's what I mean - it's clearly out of date since it uses the bourgeois Julian calendar.

Actually I'm trying to cram 2 months work into 2 days so my head's up my arse at the moment, shouldn't be posting really but it's that boring I have to distract myself occasionally or I'll go insane.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 21, 2012)

PD needs a banner for the London mayday march., it would be marvellous if. We had more behind it that WP have behind theirs.


----------



## rekil (Apr 22, 2012)

On the blog's halfarsed about section. 


> We can only guess at the opportunism that courses through the veins of the ‘comrades’ who authored the above statement.
> 
> What is clear is that the clichéd confusion it displays cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged. It is this task and this task alone that has brought together true comrades for Proletarian Democracy into the Ad -Hoc Committee for Revolutionary Unity (PD-AHCRU).
> 
> ...


Louis?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 22, 2012)

LOL

The ultimate aim of PD (apart from the emancipation of the international proletariat obviously) has to be Despatches doing a program about how we're secretly trying to overthrow the state or something.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 22, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> Who used Year zero before him?


 
I told you, the French did, it being backdated to 1789.  And he didn't 'use' it as such, except to make a not very good analogy, whereby instead of a victorious bourgeoisie, casting themselves as being representative of the whole population in destroying an arch-evil _ancien regime_, the Communist Party was in its place, as the country joined and caught up with the rest of the Communist-ruled world.  In this analogy, the 1917 Bolshevik revolutionary model was superimposed upon the old French one.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 22, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Trolling. To be fair they had me bang to rights lol


 
Did you ever come across a prick called ComradeMan? He's Italian. He was/is still restricted (you know what that means over there).


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 22, 2012)

http://ministryofdisinfo.wordpress....oups-new-self-kettling-tactics-baffle-police/


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 22, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> I told you, the French did, it being backdated to 1789. And he didn't 'use' it as such, except to make a not very good analogy.


I'm not arguing whether it was an analogy or not, was he the first to do a "Year Zero"?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 22, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> You should do it in the form of a questionnaire though and if they fail they don't join.


 
need some sort of candidate membership which gives prospective members access to class conscious on-line accreditation


----------



## elfman (Apr 22, 2012)

Add a Chinese branch to the list on the blog for me


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 22, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Did you ever come across a prick called ComradeMan? He's Italian. He was/is still restricted (you know what that means over there).



Yeah, bit of a contrarian from what I remember. You can get restricted on there dead easy though, saying cunt or suggesting that economic immigration isn't necessarily a positive thing is usually enough. Think they do that to get rid of opportunist layers and the parasitic milieu lol


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2012)

theres some fuckin bizarre shit on revleft. some of them seem to have a real mad vicious hate for the SP. i suppose because of the prison officers thing, which in some respects is understandalbe i spose, but it pales into insignificance compared to North Korea's right to use nuclear weapons. It says something when most of the saner people on the forum seem to be stalinists


----------



## JimW (Apr 22, 2012)

elfman said:


> Add a Chinese branch to the list on the blog for me


I will split with you immediately over your position on Hua Guofeng's legacy (whatever it is - I'll be agin it).


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 22, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> I'm not arguing whether it was an analogy or not, was he the first to do a "Year Zero"?


 
No.  What a stupid thing to say.  He never 'did' a Year Zero.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 22, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, bit of a contrarian from what I remember. You can get restricted on there dead easy though, saying cunt or suggesting that economic immigration isn't necessarily a positive thing is usually enough. Think they do that to get rid of opportunist layers and the parasitic milieu lol


 
Yeah.  He held a grudge against me because I pwned him a few times.  He's a weirdo.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 22, 2012)

What's your username on there?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 22, 2012)

Not saying here. 

I used to post in the history and theory forums, mainly, or go to the restricted posters area. I wasted a few afternoons destroying the idiot ComradeMan in epic thread battles, and as a result gathered a small cult following of teenage Maoists in the US (just going through a phase I think) and an Irish girl into the Shining Path. Palingenesis, remember her?

There's Ismail as well. 'Hoxha said...' One of the best was caramelpence, a knowledgeable bloke but didn't last long. He was a returning banned poster.

'Girl' would probably get me restricted over there. SEXIST.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 22, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Not saying here.
> 
> I used to post in the history and theory forums, mainly, or go to the restricted posters area. I wasted a few afternoons destroying the idiot ComradeMan in epic thread battles, and as a result gathered a small cult following of teenage Maoists in the US (just going through a phase I think) and an Irish girl into the Shining Path. Palingenesis, remember her?
> 
> ...


 
It was a troll thread in the restricted posters area that got me banned. I joined that forum with the best of intentions but got increasingly frustrated with the cringe inducing levels of student wadicalism. In the end I started a thread entitled, 'the working class are superior in every imaginable way', in which I abused every poster who commented (including someone from the CWI lol) until my account was banned - frogwoman will probably remember it. I somehow managed to gain a fan and defender in that thread called redsunrising who was a stark raving bonkers stalinist.

I remember that palingenesis, slightly unhinged but she seemed to know her stuff when it came to Irish history.


----------



## rekil (Apr 22, 2012)




----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2012)

There was a general anti-cap meeting in Manchester recently. Some refugees from WP were there. They said that what we really need is a new left wing party


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2012)

oh god i need to go back to that forum lol, too fucking funny. The latest was when they argued that marxists shouldn't support a woman in an irish republican group who'd been tortured or something because they're "against nationalism". Idiots!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2012)

bollocks, i seem to have forgotten my password and tried to get it emailed to me (twice) but i havent been emailed yet. Perhaps they've realised I'm a counterrevolutionary lol


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2012)

Comrades! I have discovered more proof, if proof be needed, that the onion of our Party must shed itself of yet another layer, and must rid itself completely of the petty-bourgeois delusions perpetrated by Comrade Booth and his third-worldist crypto-Maoism, and Comrade MacNeice and his utopianist "sunlightism". If this is not proof of the fact that half-digested within the body of Kentucky Fried Chicken, the best layers of our Marxist onion are yet to be discovered, then I don't know what is.

No to vegetarianism - for a workers' meal deal, costing £2.99 as a transitional stage to the abolition of the wage system!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Comrades! I have discovered more proof, if proof be needed, that the onion of our Party must shed itself of yet another layer, and must rid itself completely of the petty-bourgeois delusions perpetrated by Comrade Booth and his third-worldist crypto-Maoism, and Comrade MacNeice and his utopianist "sunlightism". If this is not proof of the fact that half-digested within the body of Kentucky Fried Chicken, the best layers of our Marxist onion are yet to be discovered, then I don't know what is.
> 
> No to vegetarianism - for a workers' meal deal, costing £2.99 as a transitional stage to the abolition of the wage system!


 
Kremlin Fried Chicken.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

That has to go on the blog if it's not there already.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

thanks, yeh, just put it up


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> PD needs a banner for the London mayday march., it would be marvellous if. We had more behind it that WP have behind theirs.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

something weird's going on with the transparency here - it keeps turning the transparent sections to black instead of white, and it needs resized


----------



## Col_Buendia (Apr 23, 2012)

If I can get my brother-in-law to look at the PD blog, that'll be two page views from Colombia, so you can put us down as the Bogota Branch comrades.

Onwards to global revolution!!


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I remember that palingenesis, slightly unhinged but she seemed to know her stuff when it came to Irish history.


 
She had the best avatar, but unfortunately it's associated with dogmatic, counter-productive authoritarians who gave poor people a choice between abuse and massacre, or abuse and massacre at the hands of their opponents.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 23, 2012)

EXTREME PREDGE


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 23, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> theres some fuckin bizarre shit on revleft. *some of them seem to have a real mad vicious hate for the SP.* i suppose because of the prison officers thing, which in some respects is understandalbe i spose, but it pales into insignificance compared to North Korea's right to use nuclear weapons. It says something when most of the saner people on the forum seem to be stalinists


 
Understandable ,didn't Nigel Irritable post on there?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 23, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> There was a general anti-cap meeting in Manchester recently. Some refugees from WP were there. They said that what we really need is a new left wing party


 

Couldn't you hold one at the next squat?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2012)

can has blog link?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 23, 2012)

Here.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2012)

gracy arse


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh yes.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 23, 2012)

Fantastic


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

Good placards for the PD contingent on the tankie Mayday march?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Understandable ,didn't Nigel Irritable post on there?


no.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

I think we should make it our aim to get PD placards in pictures in the press. I shall be taking one to the Chesterfield march for a laugh.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

chilango said:


> Good placards for the PD contingent on the tankie Mayday march?


 
Any chance of getting them on the blog in PDF format?


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Any chance of getting them on the blog in PDF format?


 
Yeah, at some point this afternoon I'll get onto it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think we should make it our aim to get PD placards in pictures in the press. I shall be taking one to the Chesterfield march for a laugh.


 
You're joking I know, but this is how the NBP in Russia started.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 23, 2012)

No it didn't. Their crap later prankster activity might have started out like that though.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> No it didn't. Their crap later prankster activity might have started out like that though.


 
I knew someone wouldn't get the joke.   I didn't think it would be Capt. H.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah.  It was a joke.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> You're joking I know, but this is how the NBP in Russia started.


 
The Nazbols started out in a thread on urban about workers power splitting?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> The Nazbols started out in a thread on urban about workers power splitting?


 
Thus, the cosmic ballet continues.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Any chance of getting them on the blog in PDF format?


 
Done

http://proletariandemocracy.wordpress.com/posters/

1073 views of the blog now....


----------



## krink (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think we should make it our aim to get PD placards in pictures in the press. I shall be taking one to the Chesterfield march for a laugh.


 
I would be up for this but the nearest mayday march to me is in newcastle on cup final day so i'll be at home watching the match...I MEAN WRITING A PAMPHLET ON THE JOY OF THE WORKERS' BOMB, HONEST.


----------



## petee (Apr 23, 2012)

> no nonsense heads up proper socialism


 
I HAVE FOUND MY TENDENCY


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

The NCAFC are meeting at sheffield uni tonight (national meeting I'm led to believe) and I've somehow been lumbered with sorting the room out. As a result I'm going to have to attend the meeting. Now, I'm told Workers Power will be well represented there. So I'm asking myself, since their split inspired the birth of PD, should I take workers bomb and workers clock leaflets and do a proper intervention, trying to get them to support it?

Probably not a good idea but Christ it's tempting!


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> The NCAFC are meeting at sheffield uni tonight (national meeting I'm led to believe) and I've somehow been lumbered with sorting the room out. As a result I'm going to have to attend the meeting. Now, I'm told Workers Power will be well represented there. So I'm asking myself, since their split inspired the birth of PD, should I take workers bomb and workers clock leaflets and do a proper intervention, trying to get them to support it?
> 
> Probably not a good idea but Christ it's tempting!



I think we need a proper, dead-pan, leaflet arguing for the Workers' Bomb, and we should start on some of the nuttier groups first. Workers Power are probably too sensible to fall for it....

...yet.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 23, 2012)

I wonder what the real posadists would make of all this? Pleased about the publicity? Angry about us taking the piss? Too busy building fallout shelters to care?


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2012)

chilango said:


> I think we need a proper, dead-pan, leaflet arguing for the Workers' Bomb, and we should start on some of the nuttier groups first. Workers Power are probably too sensible to fall for it....
> 
> ...yet.


they have been caught out before.  By those pesky Ukrainians.  Who argued that nuclear power was safe.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

I'll have a go at this.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 23, 2012)

wasn't there a wonderful ukranian group that got itself accepted by half the world's various internationals as their section.
 got about 271/2p and a lifetime supply of trotsky books. but worth it for the lols


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

tell me what you think:


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 23, 2012)

Very good.

Can you also do a stalin type poster of Peter Taffe, with congratulations for 50 years rule or whatever it is?

Maybe you could stick in the nuttier quotes from the AWL vs SP debate on Libya.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Very good.
> 
> Can you also do a stalin type poster of Peter Taffe, with congratulations for 50 years rule or whatever it is?
> 
> Maybe you could stick in the nuttier quotes from the AWL vs SP debate on Libya.



Ah. Work for the morning. Thanks.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 23, 2012)

How many visits has the blog had, aside from people following the link/s from Urban?


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> tell me what you think:


Gmail address is wrong. That one was gone. Ours is realproletariandemocracy. I think. And headlines should be on separate lines? But as I said last night, I like these little mistakes.

Time for PD youth sections to be formed, at least one for each tendency/faction.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

Workers bomb desperately needed here.


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> How many visits has the blog had, aside from people following the link/s from Urban?


1300ish. Referrer stats aren't too clear yet. Not to me anyway. 160 from u75, 33, 26 and 22 from twitter, facebook and libcom. 2 views each from South Korea and Belgium, so unless that's SK NIS and Nato, they're the latest branches.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

I didn't raise the issue of the workers' bomb, though if I had done it would have made the debate slightly more sane. A truly remarkable meeting!

I'm considering writing a report for the PD blog.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Very good.
> 
> Can you also do a stalin type poster of Peter Taffe, with congratulations for 50 years rule or whatever it is?
> 
> Maybe you could stick in the nuttier quotes from the AWL vs SP debate on Libya.


 
You have deeply offended my sensibilities etc.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

By the way, if we're going for the poker face strategy and trying to make the group look like it might be real, we should probably tidy up the agitprop page - some of those images are a bit of a giveaway.


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> By the way, if we're going for the poker face strategy and trying to make the group look like it might be real, we should probably tidy up the agitprop page - some of those images are a bit of a giveaway.


Some?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't think there's been a second page view from Colombia but you are already claiming us as a branch on the twitter profile. You guys have no scruples when it comes to building a workers movement, do you?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

Col_Buendia said:


> I don't think there's been a second page view from Colombia but you are already claiming us as a branch on the twitter profile. You guys have no scruples when it comes to building a workers movement, do you?


 
By whatever means necessary comrade!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

copliker said:


> 1300ish. Referrer stats aren't too clear yet. Not to me anyway. 160 from u75, 33, 26 and 22 from twitter, facebook and libcom. 2 views each from South Korea and Belgium, so unless that's SK NIS and Nato, they're the latest branches.


 
594 views just for today!


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2012)

Col_Buendia said:


> I don't think there's been a second page view from Colombia but you are already claiming us as a branch on the twitter profile. You guys have no scruples when it comes to building a workers movement, do you?


 


Consider yourself expelled.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 23, 2012)

Isn't Colombia a US puppet state totally run by the CIA or something? Coz apparently a lot of the more outlandish stuff about Posadas was anti-communist propaganda invented by the CIA who operate out of Colombia. I bet that's where your views have come from.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Apr 23, 2012)

copliker said:


> Consider yourself expelled.


Have I secured my place in history as the first expulsion from PD? Sweeeeet 

I was going to say, we're having a lot of trouble finding salaried work in Colombia, so I was thinking of setting up a Lumpenproletarian Democracy splitter group. For those of us overlooked by the quasi-bourgeois elitism of your workerist philosophy.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

A4 pdf of this about to go live on the blog...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

Col_Buendia said:


> Have I secured my place in history as the first expulsion from PD? Sweeeeet
> 
> I was going to say, we're having a lot of trouble finding salaried work in Colombia, so I was thinking of setting up a Lumpenproletarian Democracy splitter group. For those of us overlooked by the quasi-bourgeois elitism of your workerist philosophy.


 
Someone's got to deal with these renegades


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 23, 2012)

> A truly remarkable meeting!


 
I know that this probably isn't the thread for it but someone from the NCAFC came to our branch AGM and seemed fairly sane. What went on at the meeting?!


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> *I know that this probably isn't the thread for it* but someone from the NCAFC came to our branch AGM and seemed fairly sane. What went on at the meeting?!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 23, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> I know that this probably isn't the thread for it but someone from the NCAFC came to our branch AGM and seemed fairly sane. What went on at the meeting?!


 
Daft debate about the UAF, lasted about 40 minutes in a meeting scheduled to last an hour. It was in preparation for the NUS conference where there were far more important issues to discuss. It was implied that an AWLer was racist (or at least not really antiracist) for opposing a proposed motion for affiliation to UAF. Bang out of order.


And I'm fast coming to the conclusion that you wouldn't know sanity if it came and put you in a straightjacket.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Apr 23, 2012)

> Daft debate about the UAF, lasted about 40 minutes in a meeting scheduled to last an hour. It was in preparation for the NUS conference where there were far more important issues to discuss. It was implied that an AWLer was racist (or at least not really antiracist) for opposing a proposed motion for affiliation to UAF. Bang out of order.


 
What has the UAF got to do with the NCAFC, I thought it was a campaign against fees and cuts?! My experience of the UAF is they are an absolute joke.



> And I'm fast coming to the conclusion that you wouldn't know sanity if it came and put you in a straightjacket.


 
 what because I asked about a meeting you went to?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 24, 2012)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> What has the UAF got to do with the NCAFC, I thought it was a campaign against fees and cuts?! My experience of the UAF is they are an absolute joke.


 
See PM.




One_Stop_Shop said:


> what because I asked about a meeting you went to?


 
Apologies, long day + bad mood. Can't even remember why I posted that.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 24, 2012)

This thread is brilliant


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 24, 2012)

copliker said:


> Gmail address is wrong. That one was gone. Ours is realproletariandemocracy. I think. And headlines should be on separate lines? But as I said last night, I like these little mistakes.
> 
> Time for PD youth sections to be formed, at least one for each tendency/faction.


 
A black section and LT and G one would mean that we will probably get into the Guardian


----------



## BigTom (Apr 24, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> A black section and LT and G one would mean that we will probably get into the Guardian


 
I'm tempted to say that we should reject liberation committees for women, lgbt etc. on the basis that they are segregationist and therefore sexist/racist etc., and not good for the progression of true equality regardless of gender, sexual orientation etc.
Would certainly get some heckles up


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 24, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I'm tempted to say that we should reject liberation committees for women, lgbt etc. on the basis that they are segregationist and therefore sexist/racist etc., and not good for the progression of true equality regardless of gender, sexual orientation etc.
> Would certainly get some heckles up


 
heckles or hackles?


----------



## BigTom (Apr 24, 2012)

I think probably hackles, whoops. it'd be a lovely trolling position to take in amongst marxist/trotskyites.  A bit of stupid liberalism thrown in amongst the weird marxism


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 24, 2012)

Very US Maoist


----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> To skip back to a conversation that was going on about 20 pages ago about how someone should make a sitcom set on the left, I discovered today that RTE Radio's Green Tea comedy show does regular sketches featuring Joe Higgins and Clare Daly of the Socialist Party and Richard Boyd Barrett of the SWP and People Before Profit.
> 
> Apparently Joe is portrayed as the long-suffering elder statesman who is always having to explain things to Richard, who is portrayed as an excitable child.


I heard one episode and they were referred to as "serial whingers", oooh edgy. And then there was the "Ireland...twinned with Nigeria" line over and over. 

Does it get better?


----------



## BigTom (Apr 24, 2012)

Position paper coming soon comrades


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 24, 2012)

copliker said:


> I heard one episode and they were referred to as "serial whingers", oooh edgy. And then there was the *"Ireland...twinned with Nigeria"* line over and over.
> 
> Does it get better?


 

Was the bit in bold as dodgy as it sounds? RTE doesn't really do comedy.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 24, 2012)

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/trotsky-says-sorry-beyond-the-grave.292376/#post-11111184

It would appear our position on Kronstadt has been resolved with this - defintiely not fake - message from Trotsky.  Obviously people will claim it's fake, but (assuming my memory/understanding is correct), as Posadis has taught us, the aliens will bring full communism, and this is a message from the aliens, blates.  It woz lenin wot did it. I'm setting up an anti-leninist tendency. We reject the teachings & methodologies of Lenin, whilst still embracing the teachings & methodologies of trotsky - where these are the same we both reject and embrace them, in a dialectic fashion, seeing them as thesis and antithesis to the synthesis of Proletarian Democracy.


----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Was the bit in bold as dodgy as it sounds? RTE doesn't really do comedy.


It turned out they were trying to make a laboured point about Ireland's corruption, saying Nigeria is the most corrupt country in the world, which is wrong anyway, but there was a weird subtext especially considering how often all black people are assumed to be nigerian here.


----------



## treelover (Apr 24, 2012)

NUS national conference in Sheff today, (bit of a coup for the struggling city) hardly any stalls there, though this was late afternoon..

SWP there, natch...


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Apr 24, 2012)

copliker said:


> I heard one episode and they were referred to as "serial whingers", oooh edgy. And then there was the "Ireland...twinned with Nigeria" line over and over.
> 
> Does it get better?


 
Not really, no. RTE comedy is never funny.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2012)

copliker said:


> I heard one episode and they were referred to as "serial whingers", oooh edgy. And then there was the "Ireland...twinned with Nigeria" line over and over.
> 
> Does it get better?


 
they sound like cunts, i'd have heard that episode and wanted to throw my radio away.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 24, 2012)

treelover said:


> NUS national conference in Sheff today, (bit of a coup for the struggling city) hardly any stalls there, though this was late afternoon..
> 
> SWP there, natch...


 
So were the SP, AWL and Workers' Power. Most of the work goes on inside though, I was there leafleting this morning. We'll be there every day until it ends (Thursday I believe) and I expect the rest will too.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 24, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> So were the SP, AWL and Workers' Power. Most of the work goes on inside though, I was there leafleting this morning. We'll be there every day until it ends (Thursday I believe) and I expect the rest will too.


how did the workers bomb leaflet go amongst the proletarian milieu?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 24, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> how did the workers bomb leaflet go amongst the proletarian milieu?


 
Very well, we have enough people for a fully functioning branch in Sheffield. And a decent sized entrist faction in one of the Sheffield SP branches


----------



## audiotech (Apr 24, 2012)

Splitters ^ and on that note we end at the beginning.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 24, 2012)

I think we probably ought to intervene in this thread on libcom, they're talking about PD and one of them appears to believe we're a genuine Posadist group: http://libcom.org/forums/libcommunity/trot-split-lulz-15042012


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 25, 2012)

Before that we need to do a front page of our paper.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 25, 2012)

Headline: ICC show the depths of their opportunism by refusing to join The Alliance for Workers' Time (TWAT).


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 25, 2012)

Communiqué 3
65/08/70 (AM)

Bright Dawn salutes the Murdoch attack on Cameron's degenerate public school clique government. We raise our clenched fists in celebration of the bourgeois infighting. At this important time our enemy’s enemy is most decidedly our friend.

Yesterday James lit the fuse, today let Rupert set the prairie alight.

Victory to James Murdoch!
Victory to Rupert Murdoch!
Victory to Proletarian Democracy!

People’s Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD)


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 25, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> The Alliance for Workers' Time (TWAT).


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 25, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Communiqué 3
> 65/08/70 (AM)
> 
> Bright Dawn salutes the Murdoch attack on Cameron's degenerate public school clique government. We raise our clenched fists in celebration of the bourgeois infighting. At this important time our enemy’s enemy is most decidedly our friend.
> ...


awesome


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 25, 2012)

The blog desperately needs some anti-sex propaganda. If I could be arsed I'd do it but I'm a lazy bastard


----------



## Col_Buendia (Apr 25, 2012)

Note to the blogger comrades: when I hit the Tweet this button on this page http://proletariandemocracy.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/communique-3-650870-am-2/ the dialogue box comes up with text that carries no reference to PD. It's not worth tweeting in that format, can you sort the template out so that it tweets lots of PD refs and hashtags?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 25, 2012)

I would but unfortunately I'm a massive Luddite and don't have a clue what that means


----------



## Col_Buendia (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, I don't see how you're going to be any use developing the Worker's Bomb. It's not fertiliser and bleach we're planning on using, is it?


----------



## JimW (Apr 26, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> <snip>I'm a massive Luddite </snip>


And here, comrades, the odious Spiney _admits openly_ to his dangerous insurrectionist adventurism and and advocacy of the ill-disciplined workerist temperament of the machine-wreckers. What place for such naive ultra-leftism can there be in a project so solemn and serious as ours?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 26, 2012)

'Luddism', while futile, still has a bad name.  

I, for one, raise a glass to the croppers, weavers and the like.


----------



## JimW (Apr 26, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> 'Luddism', while futile, still has a bad name.
> 
> I, for one, raise a glass to the croppers, weavers and the like.


Too right, read a great book about it years ago: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Land-Lost-Content-Luddite-Rebellion/dp/0434629006


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 26, 2012)

It is a part of local history near my home town. A fair few Luddites (some only youngsters) were held in the gaol at Lancaster castle. There they were publicly hanged as well.


----------



## JimW (Apr 26, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> It is a part of local history near my home town. A fair few Luddites, (some only youngsters) were held in the gaol at Lancaster castle. There they were publicly hanged as well.


When I moved down south I got a pamphlet done by a local historian about similar uprisings among the shearers in Gloucestershire. What he makes clear in that book is that they weren't "against progress", they were against being de-skilled and the loss of the relative freedom and lack of social stratification of the old master-apprentice way of doing the job.
ETA: Here's that pamphlet: http://www.diandsaulbooks.co.uk/the...historical-records-by-john-loosley-2535-p.asp Bit later than the Luddites but same grievances IIRC - I'd not hard of the southern version at all til I moved there.


----------



## elfman (Apr 26, 2012)

200th anniversary of the Luddites. There's a few websites commemorating it all. I lived quite near to where a some major action happened apparently.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 26, 2012)

JimW said:


> What he makes clear in that book is that they weren't "against progress", they were against being de-skilled and the loss of the relative freedom and lack of social stratification of the old master-apprentice way of doing the job.


 
Oh, of course.  For the Luddites It was organisation in defence of livelihoods and working conditions.  It wasn't just changes in industry but a time of war in Europe, blockade, and high food prices, that not only presented the threat of destitution but possible starvation for their families.


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## chilango (Apr 26, 2012)

Battle flag of the PD militia



and in action


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 26, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> So were the SP, AWL and Workers' Power. Most of the work goes on inside though, I was there leafleting this morning. We'll be there every day until it ends (Thursday I believe) and I expect the rest will too.


Give us a good report back. I know that the left candidate for VP(welfare) was elected, that conference re-affiliated to UAF and called for a national demo in the autumn. But why did the AWL-ish presidential candidate pull out of that election? I noticed a tweet about another left candidate's appearance (Sean R-R?)/ What was that about? I'm sure there was so much else


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Apr 26, 2012)

but anything about the Worker's Bomb?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 26, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's beyond a fucking joke I mean what the fuck are they playing at?
> 
> I was halfway through writing something, I know butchers is keen to see it, where I collectively list every single socialist organization in britain. From the IBT to the CPGB-ML and so on and so on. Just so I could see how many people were in them all. I didn't get through it because it's such a soul-crushing experience that I couldn't bring myself to finish it off. However, I can say with a degree of certaintly, there are well over 10,000 people in this country who are members of a left-wing sect or group, when you add them all together. And for those 10,000 people, there are literally dozens and dozens of parties. I keep coming accross new ones every time I look. It's beyond a joke.


 Some of the anarchists are just as bad.


----------



## rekil (Apr 26, 2012)

chilango said:


> and in action
> 
> View attachment 18516


Couldn't be more appropriate. Guernica anniversary today.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 26, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> Give us a good report back. I know that the left candidate for VP(welfare) was elected, that conference re-affiliated to UAF and called for a national demo in the autumn. But why did the AWL-ish presidential candidate pull out of that election? I noticed a tweet about another left candidate's appearance (Sean R-R?)/ What was that about? I'm sure there was so much else



Was the AWLish candidate a woman? Clare something or other? If so it was for personal/family reasons (don't know the detail and didn't ask cos it's none of my business). I've not been around much today or yesterday, been busy with other things, but I'll be in a meerting tonight with some of the delegates so I'll post what I find out on here.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 26, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Was the AWLish candidate a woman? Clare something or other? If so it was for personal/family reasons (don't know the detail and didn't ask cos it's none of my business). I've not been around much today or yesterday, been busy with other things, but I'll be in a meerting tonight with some of the delegates so I'll post what I find out on here.


That's who I meant. I don't know if "AWL-ish" is a fair description though. It was just an outsider's impression.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't know where she's coming from politically either tbh but I know exactly what you mean.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 27, 2012)

at last the weekly worker speaks
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004812
unfortunately no mention of the exciting new developments in PD, nor Frogwoman's success in creating a peasant army in Buckinghamshire- For a daily bus service based on Workers Timetables and forward to the workers bomb!


----------



## Jean-Luc (Apr 27, 2012)

This report is easier to follow. Is it really true that they say North Korea is some some sort of "workers state"? If so, the truth would seem to be stranger than the some of the fiction here.


----------



## Geoff Collier (Apr 27, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> This report is easier to follow. Is it really true that they say North Korea is some some sort of "workers state"? If so, the truth would seem to be stranger than the some of the fiction here.


The traditional position of what might be called orthodox trotskyism is that the Soviet Union was a degenerated workers' state, degenerated because it was at one point a real worker's state. Other states of a similar type which were never healthy were seen as deformed workers' states. Is that a surprise to anyone?
I'm not sure that Workers Power still held to that. They has rethink about ten years ago but I can't recall what conclusion they reached


----------



## mk12 (Apr 27, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> The traditional position of what might be called orthodox trotskyism is that the Soviet Union was a degenerated workers' state, degenerated because it was at one point a real worker's state. Other states of a similar type which were never healthy were seen as deformed workers' states. Is that a surprise to anyone?
> I'm not sure that Workers Power still held to that. They has rethink about ten years ago but I can't recall what conclusion they reached


 
Based on this article (http://www.workerspower.net/us-imperialism-has-north-korea-in-its-cross-hairs) it looks like they take an ortho-Trot view of North Korea.



> The North Koreans must be afforded the right to develop nuclear weapons if they feel the need to do so to resist imperialist aggression. The consequences of the _*re-introduction of capitalism*_ on the workers and peasants of North Korea would be nothing short of catastrophic. As socialists we are for the defeat of US and Japanese imperialism and the _*defense of the planned-property relations*_.
> We reject any attempt at regime change by the imperialists. However, we are not blind to the horrors of the regime. The Stalinist dictators in North Korea preside over a monstrous _*bureaucratic*_ regime, one that oppresses it’s largely peasant population. The League for the Fifth International is committed to building a revolutionary party in North Korea to overthrow the regime and replace it with genuine workers and peasants power – _*a struggle for political revolution*_.


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## barney_pig (Apr 27, 2012)

a new breakthrough in the war against opportunism and philistinism! a proletarian democracy facebook page has been established!
forward to many likes and the workers bomb!
http://www.facebook.com/groups/392687287438746/#


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## Nigel Irritable (Apr 27, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> The traditional position of what might be called orthodox trotskyism is that the Soviet Union was a degenerated workers' state, degenerated because it was at one point a real worker's state. Other states of a similar type which were never healthy were seen as deformed workers' states. Is that a surprise to anyone?
> I'm not sure that Workers Power still held to that. They has rethink about ten years ago but I can't recall what conclusion they reached


 
The last time Workers Power did any thinking of their own was when they came up with the brand new category of "moribund workers states", to describe the former Stalinist states after their collapse. After they finally gave up on that, they not unwisely decided that thinking wasn't their strong point and gave it up permanently. Every once in a while a few of their members forget this important lesson, start reading books and trying to come up with new ideas. So they decide, for instance, that capitalism is in the midst of a world historic upswing, just as it's about to enter its gravest crisis in eighty years. This forgetfulness has led to most of their recent splits.


----------



## chilango (Apr 27, 2012)

PD now featuring on Ian Bone's blog...


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> PD now featuring on Ian Bone's blog...


i did think that it would be more in keeping with the persona of PD to reject all applications to join as obviously from dilliattentes and internet ne'erdowells who are on facebook when they should be out in the villages and hamlets of the thames valley raising peasant consciousness and bringing the good news of comrade Posada's thoughts to their benighted lives


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## barney_pig (Apr 28, 2012)

Only two more members on the facebook and we will outnumber the latest worker's power split.
BTW I am giving admin rights to everyone, on the basis that every faction needs to be able to have equal access.


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## Jean-Luc (Apr 28, 2012)

Geoff Collier said:


> The traditional position of what might be called orthodox trotskyism is that the Soviet Union was a degenerated workers' state, degenerated because it was at one point a real worker's state. Other states of a similar type which were never healthy were seen as deformed workers' states. Is that a surprise to anyone?


Agreed, we'd better not go too far down this road as this is presumably what SPEW thinks too and we won't know who is having the last laugh.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 28, 2012)

peoples Democracy is central in the struggle for political revolution in the deranged workers states.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 29, 2012)

Shameless bump.


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## barney_pig (Apr 29, 2012)

29 members on facebook; not long till we start reaching EDL numbers, time to get those hoodies printed!


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 29, 2012)

dear comrades, 32 members. more members than the cpgb?


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## rekil (Apr 30, 2012)

The blog has been viewed in Vietnam. Twice!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 30, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> dear comrades, 32 members. more members than the cpgb?


 
it won't be long before they start sending people in as spies.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 30, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> it won't be long before they start sending people in as spies.


 
FW - I think you're a little off the pace. As I type Fisher and Conrad are huddled together trying to make sense of the intel they have recieved from their 'red mole'. As the Weekly Worker will at some point tell us, 'you must understand this is all being done in the interest of the movement comrade'.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 30, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> 29 members on facebook; not long till we start reaching EDL numbers, time to get those hoodies printed!


 
Linkage?


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Linkage?


 
Facebook search Proletarian Democracy.


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## rekil (Apr 30, 2012)

The paper should have classifieds and personals and that. Eg.


> Gender neutral member of the steering committee of the Revolutionary Communist League, one of the two (public) factions of the Fourth International in Belgium and a member of the new Progressive Proletarian Struggle [Posadist] (PPS(P)) party in Wavre which is recognised (by some) as being “close to Friends Of Proletarian Democracy” in parts of Leuven while currently requesting official recognition from Proletarian Democracy, seeks similar (with GSOH) for walks, meetings, talks, meetings and.....maybe more?


And so on.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Facebook search Proletarian Democracy.


 
Tried that, will have another go.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Tried that, will have another go.


http://www.facebook.com/groups/392687287438746/


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## Riklet (Apr 30, 2012)

Proletarian Democracy came up on my FB feed lol.

It's speading.


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## krink (Apr 30, 2012)

just asked to join fb group. please let me in, I promise no splitting...for at least a day anyway.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

Was Ian Bone invited to the group or did he join it hahaha?


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## krink (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm in, thanks comrade rachel


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## BigTom (Apr 30, 2012)

copliker said:


> The paper should have classifieds and personals and that. Eg.
> 
> And so on.


 
We should have those I saw you things as well eg:



> March 26th demo, Trafalgar Square. You were holding a Proletarian Democracy "I want to Believe" placard, and I had an MMMK flag. We chanted "Come on, Come on, We Need The Workers Bomb" before being swept apart by a horse charge.  We've got a vanguard party to build, get in touch. box 123456789


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## frogwoman (Apr 30, 2012)

It could have job adverts as well.



> A small Trotskyist group is looking for experienced nuclear engineers to apply for jobs at Sellafield. Although the extra pay will be minimal (and possibly non existent), the reward will be the Workers' Bomb and transition to socialism, upon which your salary will increase exponentially when the Workers' Bomb is set off and the bourgeoisie are expropriated.
> 
> Applicants must have a sound working knowledge of explosive devices and be willing to work long hours for very little (actually, probably no) reward. They must have a charming and persuasive manner in order to patiently explain to fellow workers why the Workers' Bomb is needed, and must also be skilled at martial arts.


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## frogwoman (Apr 30, 2012)

> Proletarian Democracy is looking for people who would be willing to set up a branch of the vanguard party on Saturn. They must be enthusiastic, willing to try new things, and have a reckless disregard for their own safety. A higher-than-average lung capacity is also a distinct advantage.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 30, 2012)

I think we need a position on the Dog Delusion, comrades. For too long the bourgeois, imaginary concept of dogs has been used as a tool to oppress the proletariat. Little do these people realise that dogs don't actually exist.


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## co-op (May 1, 2012)

> Wanted. Class Vanguard. Must be qualified to 7th International or equivalent. Some unsocial hours and heavy lifting. Successful candidates can expect ££££ (according to their need) and will benefit from establishment and membership of new bureaucratic elite. Apply to Proletarian Democracy, reference "revolutionary cadre". Proletarian Democracy is an equal opportunities employer and welcomes applications from all planetary lifeforms.


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## co-op (May 1, 2012)

> Doctrinally strict vanguard party seeks unpoliticised urban proletariat for radicalisation and maybe more? Likes, world music,  long walks marches in the countryside and hegemonic transformation of national-cultural ideology. NSOH.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2012)

italian section forging ahead


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## frogwoman (May 1, 2012)

The only reason that people imagine stroking, feeding, walking or even eating a dog is to distract from the emptiness of life under capitalism. Comrades, we must have no truck with these petty-bourgeois fantasies of "dog ownership" (an anti-Marxist concept in itself!) After the revolution, dogs will be regarded in the same light as unicorns or dragons. If someone wants to continue to have faith in the existence of such creatures, we will not prevent them, but they will not be permitted to force their dangerous beliefs onto the population at large.


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2012)

*Party decree on the London mayoral election*

On Thursday London will go to the polls to vote for which bourgeois candidate the proletariat want to oppress them. Most of the so-called reformist "left" currently swimming in their parasitic swamp would prefer the workers to vote for what is mockingly known as "Keningrad" on the grounds of lesser-evilism. This mocking of the great founder of Bolshevism would be mildly amusing were it not coming from the reformist milieu which have spat on the name of true Marxism over and over and over again. The fake social democrat Ken Livingstone does not deserve to be compared to Lenin. 

If Boris were to be returned to office again, however, Proletarian Democracy could radicalise the proletariat who would have to face four more years of the class enemy showing its true face. Combined with Rupert Murdoch's heroic efforts in dividing the British bourgeoisie, so articulately explained by Comrade MacNeice, a Boris victory could herald the dawn of a new age in the proletarian movement and a step closer to the reforging of the 20th International.

We say:

Victory to Boris Johnson!
Victory to Rupert Murdoch!
Victory to Proletarian Democracy!


----------



## chilango (May 1, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> The only reason that people imagine stroking, feeding, walking or even eating a dog is to distract from the emptiness of life under capitalism. Comrades, we must have no truck with these petty-bourgeois fantasies of "dog ownership" (an anti-Marxist concept in itself!) After the revolution, dogs will be regarded in the same light as unicorns or dragons. If someone wants to continue to have faith in the existence of such creatures, we will not prevent them, but they will not be permitted to force their dangerous beliefs onto the population at large.



Ooh too close to the bone!


----------



## The39thStep (May 1, 2012)

Have we got a line on ending relationships by texting?


----------



## barney_pig (May 1, 2012)

Dr Pablo u r dmpd, c u, Mandel.


----------



## frogwoman (May 2, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (May 2, 2012)

I think I'm suffering from the dog delusion 

I was playing catch with the dog earlier and she accidentally bit me (we both tried to catch the ball, I caught the ball and she caught my hand lol). Not only did I genuinely believe I was playing with a dog, but even now, when I know she isn't real, my hand hurts like buggery and if I take the plaster off it bleeds.

I need revolutionary proletarian therapy to overcome this delusion


----------



## barney_pig (May 2, 2012)

dr jim, party 2nght? u get da booze, i get da babes. cul8r gerry


----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)

Maybe we have almost enough to put together the first issue of the paper?

I'll lay it out if someone can c&p  everything into text files...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 2, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> *Party decree on the London mayoral election*
> 
> On Thursday London will go to the polls to vote for which bourgeois candidate the proletariat want to oppress them. Most of the so-called reformist "left" currently swimming in their parasitic swamp would prefer the workers to vote for what is mockingly known as "Keningrad" on the grounds of lesser-evilism. This mocking of the great founder of Bolshevism would be mildly amusing were it not coming from the reformist milieu which have spat on the name of true Marxism over and over and over again. The fake social democrat Ken Livingstone does not deserve to be compared to Lenin.
> 
> ...


 


 
*Communiqué 4 - 72/08/70 (AM)*

*Purge the degenerate elements - forward with proletarian re-education.*

The ignorance displayed in the proposed slogan 'Victory to Boris Johnson' (pandering as it does to the illusion of choice being offered by the anti-democractic public school clique) and the petit bourgeois individualism all too apparent in the identification of the comrade who used to be known as Louis MacNeice, are not unsurprising given their degenerate source within the fetid swap of PD factionalism.

What they demand is a thorough going and systematic self appraisal by all Proletarian Democrats and a subsequent similarly through going and systematic re-education process. We need to beat ourselves upon the twin anvils of self criticism and enlightened knowledge if we are to be forged fit for the struggle to come.

To this end Bright Dawn is first to step forward and confess our past failure; that is our failure to consistently and effectively identify, denounce and purge from the ranks of PD, the actions, the thoughts and the individuals who have at every turn sought to dam the surging tide of the workers' anger. Degenerates be warned, we will not fail again!

*Death to anti-PD thoughts and actions! *
*Death to the agents of anti-PD thoughts and actions! *
*Victory to self criticism!*
*Victory to enlightened knowledge! *
*Victory to Proletarian Democracy!*

*People’s Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD)*


----------



## The39thStep (May 2, 2012)

Could we photoshop the Barry Mainwaring figure on the right as party leader or some thing?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

Will there be a sports section of the paper.


----------



## rekil (May 2, 2012)

I see that Proletarian Action only have 150 followers.  And look at all them Lenins.

https://twitter.com/#!/pcap_chile


----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)

copliker said:


> I see that Proletarian Action only have 150 followers. And look at all them Lenins.
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/pcap_chile


 
We hate Proletarian Action. Hate them.


----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Will there be a sports section of the paper.


 
Of course...


----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Could we photoshop the Barry Mainwaring figure on the right as party leader or some thing?


 
I'm on it...


----------



## rekil (May 2, 2012)




----------



## rekil (May 2, 2012)

chilango said:


> We hate Proletarian Action. Hate them.


Good title for the paper's inaugural editorial.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 2, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Could we photoshop the Barry Mainwaring figure on the right as party leader or some thing?


 
Just imagine if that became the accepted PD dress code; the massed ranks in loud check three piece suits, bowties and where possible moustaches.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 2, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Will there be a sports section of the paper.


 
And not just golf.



 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)




----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 2, 2012)

The dear leader and sports brought together.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 2, 2012)




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## Red Storm (May 2, 2012)

Clive Dunn is more appropriate figure head. Arthur Lowe was a tory after all.


----------



## bluestreak (May 2, 2012)

your arguments are convincing.  where do i sign up?


----------



## Red Storm (May 2, 2012)

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Hom...s-finally-removed-from-River-Cam-02052012.htm

Comrades! We need a position on this grave injustice.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 2, 2012)

Class war aggro-swan deserves a special place in the Hall of Heroes next to the Class War Polar Bear, that dog that hospitalised 5 police and Raoul Moat


----------



## petee (May 2, 2012)

"Mr Asbo" hahahaha


----------



## Red Storm (May 2, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Class war aggro-swan deserves a special place in the Hall of Heroes next to the Class War Polar Bear, *that dog* that hospitalised 5 police and Raoul Moat


 
You mean His Most Aggro Poison the Dog.


----------



## barney_pig (May 3, 2012)

there is a new anarchist group that deserves to be incorporated into PD.
 it has a 'join us' document that spends 6 PAGES explaining the duties of a member
1. Membership in Collective Action requires agreement to the principles and aims of the
association and a level of commitment to its development.
Members are expected to:
i. Study, understand and agree to the principles and position papers of the
association. Study and understand the reference texts of the association.
ii. Make a financial contribution to the association in the form of a monthly
subscription (or give reasonable excuse why this is not possible).
iii. Participate in the national decision‐making forums of the association as far as
reasonably possible.
iv. Form and co‐ordinate circles where three or more Members and Supporters
are based in a locality.
v. Contribute in some form to the propaganda output of the association,
whether this is administration of the blog, the production of articles, creation
of images or multimedia, maintenance of the website, etc.
vi. Distribute or research channels of distribution for the literature of the
asssociation.
vii. Participate in the strategic orientation of the association both through
activity on a local level and in the development of common approaches
across the association (expressed through the decision‐making forums).
viii. Participate in the collective education and theoretical development of
Members and Supporters.
2. Associate Membership
Supporters who wish to become Members of Collective Action will be required to agree
to a period of “associate membership”. Associate Members are expected to use this
time to gain an understanding of the theory and experiences of tasks within the
association. Associate membership lasts for at least three months from the date that
each application is generally approved. Associates may be accepted as Members at any
point after the initial three month period providing they are able to commit to the
responsibilities listed above. Full Membership is confirmed by forums (this process is
subject to review).
3. Supporters
Where an existing or prospective Member feels they cannot fulfil the membership or
associate membership criteria they are encouraged to become a Supporter. Supporter
status can include a range of activities depending on time and commitment.
At the very least, Supporters are expected to:
i. Study, understand and agree to the principles and position papers of the
association. Study and understand the reference texts of the association.
It is the first principle of Collective Action to encourage membership. We do, however,
accept that this may be a role not suited to some individuals.
4. Subscription Rates
Members (waged) ‐ £10 per month
Members (unwaged) ‐ £5 per month
Supporters ‐ £2 per month
5. Circles
Where three or more Members and Supporters are based in a locality they are expected
to form circles. Circles are the collective orientation of Members and Supporters activity
on a local level. Circles are expected to have a strong understanding of the initiatives
and organisations in their locale and tailor their activity accordingly, as well as carrying
out the policies and membership commitments of the association as a whole.
6. National Decision‐Making Forum
Forums will be convened for the purposes of orientating the practices of the association
on a national basis. Both Members and Supporters can submit motions to forums.
However, Supporters and Associate Members will only be able to express an indicative
vote should they choose to attend. Decisions at forums will be passed by a simple
majority. Forums must involve (either in person or in the form of delegated votes) at
least 1/2 of the association’s membership to be quorate. A forum can choose to
postpone the decision on any motion to the next forum on the basis of a simple majority
vote.
A forum is expected to be a place of theoretical development for the association;
therefore time will be devoted to the review of relevant analysis, position papers and
reference texts.
Motions should be circulated to the membership at least a fortnight before a forum with
any amendments at least a week before (co‐ordinated by the secretariat).
Circles may elect a delegate to the forum for the purpose of carrying multiple votes.
Votes are expected to be representative of discussion and deliberation within circles.
Forums may form or elect committees or working groups (accountable to the
membership) for the purposes of carrying out specific tasks in between forums, e.g.
editorial roles.
7. Secretariat
The secretariat is elected and recallable to the collective membership. Secretariat
members should be nominated (in writing) before a forum and then elected on a simple
majority. Any member of the secretariat can be recalled via the same process.
The secretariat is expected to:
i. Oversee the administrative functions of the association in between forums.
ii. Maintain the email address and email lists and deal with
membership/supporter applications accordingly.
iii. Keep a good record of minutes from forums over its term and bring
outstanding tasks to forums.
iv. Schedule and advertise forums, compile an internal bulletin and pre‐circulate
an agenda for forums.
The Secretariat is not expected to express policy or matters of political principle as a part
of its role.
8. Public Voice
Although we cannot expect unanimous agreement on the creative output of the
association, it is expected that articles for the blog and journal, images and other
multimedia, will be published in the spirit of agreement within the association.
Members, who take on the role of administrating the blog, editing the journal, or
managing the website, will aim to circulate items within the membership first. If any
Member voices strong objection in a reasonable time‐frame to any item, it will be put to
discussion at the next forum before publication.
This process may be subject to review as the association grows.
Collective Action can make collective statements on the basis of majority agreement
within the membership. However it is expected that in external communications,
individual Members (and Supporters) will express their views as individuals and not
represent them as being those of the association as a whole.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

an anarchist group has those rules?


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

> Members (waged) ‐ £10 per month
> Members (unwaged) ‐ £5 per month
> Supporters ‐ £2 per month


 
Bloody hell. They seem like sort of half stalinists half anarchists in terms of what theyre demanding from members!


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 3, 2012)

People with too much time on their hands.


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18768


 

urban does what its best at, nearly fell off my chair...


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Class war aggro-swan deserves a special place in the Hall of Heroes next to the Class War Polar Bear, that dog that hospitalised 5 police and Raoul Moat


 

Raul Moat, ffs, even if it is ironic, spoil the fucking thread...


----------



## killer b (May 3, 2012)

wtf?


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2012)

you think the shooting was a good thing?

don't answer that...


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> you think the shooting was a good thing?
> 
> don't answer that...


 
he doesn't, i took his post to be mocking all that juvenile crap - "class war polar bear" ffs!


----------



## killer b (May 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> you think the shooting was a good thing?
> 
> don't answer that...


piss off.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> Raul Moat, ffs, even if it is ironic, spoil the fucking thread...


 
Do one.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

i should hope that everyone takes the decrees of proletarian democracy in the spirit in which they are meant


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2012)

Of course Comrade, apologies if I misconstrued the post...


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i should hope that everyone takes the decrees of proletarian democracy in the spirit in which they are meant


 
Which is to say, I should hope that everyone takes the decrees of proletarian democracy _absolutely sincerely_ as they not meant to be ironic and/or humorous in any way.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Which is to say, I should hope that everyone takes the decrees of proletarian democracy _absolutely sincerely_ as they not meant to be ironic and/or humorous in any way.


 
Apart from the splitters of course.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

Humour is a frivolous distraction from the proletarian struggle. While the lollards and mockers of urban75 are sitting there laughing away Capital is devising new and more terrible ways to destroy us.


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Workers bomb desperately needed here.


 



SpineyNorman said:


> Daft debate about the UAF, lasted about 40 minutes in a meeting scheduled to last an hour. It was in preparation for the NUS conference where there were far more important issues to discuss. It was implied that an AWLer was racist (or at least not really antiracist) for opposing a proposed motion for affiliation to UAF. Bang out of order.


 

bit late, but those goings on sound worse than when I was an NUS hack in the early 90's, and we had the RCP to contend with!


----------



## editor (May 3, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Awesome, and just a little scary.


----------



## imposs1904 (May 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18776


 
should be a t shirt


----------



## rekil (May 3, 2012)

Col_Buendia said:


> Note to the blogger comrades: when I hit the Tweet this button on this page http://proletariandemocracy.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/communique-3-650870-am-2/ the dialogue box comes up with text that carries no reference to PD. It's not worth tweeting in that format, can you sort the template out so that it tweets lots of PD refs and hashtags?


Still have no idea what this means. If you want to sort it out, you can have the login. I think there's a twitter problem. Early on the account got suspended, maybe it got reported it as spam or something (by ern?), but it's not showing up in searches and whatnot. Or is it? Anyway.

Proletarian Democracy Backs Boris Johnson For London Mayor.


----------



## rekil (May 3, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Will there be a sports section of the paper.


Horoscopes & tellyguide as well.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 3, 2012)

We need a medium though for the horoscopes.  

Someone here needs to nominate/create one.


----------



## BigTom (May 3, 2012)

Can we have an Agony Uncle Joe column as well, where Stalin speaks from beyond the grave to solve your personal problems, usually via the medium of denunciations and show trials.
I think there is already an advice stalin meme out there though.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 3, 2012)

That's a good idea.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Definitely a "watch the skies" section for evidence of socialist ETs.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

...and - obviously - a fighting fund for the Workers bomb


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Clive Dunn is more appropriate figure head. Arthur Lowe was a tory after all.


 
Stupid boy.
Its not Arthur Lowe it's a character ;Capt Mainwarings drunken brother Barry who was some sort of genial failed entertainer. He told  Mainwaring that he was a pompous twit and in doing so became a a cult hero amongst sections of advanced workers . If the Albanians have Norman Wisdom we have Barry Mainwaring.


----------



## BigTom (May 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> Definitely a "watch the skies" section for evidence of socialist ETs.


 
We need xes for this


----------



## rekil (May 3, 2012)

The blog was viewed in Mali today. Deposed president Amadou Toumani Touré clearly throwing some feelers PDward.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> ...and - obviously - a fighting fund for the Workers bomb


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Can we have an Agony Uncle Joe column as well, where Stalin speaks from beyond the grave to solve your personal problems, usually via the medium of denunciations and show trials.
> I think there is already an advice stalin meme out there though.


 
Wilhelm Reich would probably be better , he wrote some cracking stuff on having thicker walls between the bedrooms of  lovemaking proletarian youth and adults to cut the noise down so their sexual development wouldn't be hindered.


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2012)

I can see this blog appearing in the Guardian Diary and Private Eye...


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> We need a medium though for the horoscopes.
> 
> Someone here needs to nominate/create one.


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> I can see this blog appearing in the Guardian Diary and Private Eye...


 
Nothing could really take the place of Dave Spart

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/eyeplayer.php?media=128


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Can we have an Agony Uncle Joe column as well, where Stalin speaks from beyond the grave to solve your personal problems, usually via the medium of denunciations and show trials.
> I think there is already an advice stalin meme out there though.


----------



## Red Storm (May 3, 2012)

Harry Roberts should be Honorary President.

Comrades should be expected to recite "Harry Roberts" in the manner of Hari Krishna a la Chumbawamba each morning.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

*A Proletarian Democracy exclusive:*

_As the only fighting communist party truly committed to the liberation of the working class in the developing and developed worlds, we are proud to present J.V. Stalin's address to the artillery factory in the Urals from June 1945 for the very first time in Haitian creole. _

in installments obviously...


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

M ap felisite ou, kolektif la nan gason ak fanm travayè yo, travayè Jeni teknik ak anplwaye nan faktori a atiri nan Urals yo, pou viktwa a te yon gwo nan pwodiksyon:ekspòte nan 30,000 Canon; ak pou sa a se faktori a bay lòd la patriotik a lagè - premye degre.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Gras a, Lespri Bondye a, tout vanyan gason inovasyon ak mete a an efè nan yonteknik avanse nan konstriksyon mekanik nan pwodiksyon an nan atiyri, faktori aatiri, "te fonde an jou yo nan Lagè a patriotique, te vin baz la chèf pou ekspòte nanatiyri zam lwen plis pouvwa anpil ak elabore, depase teknik lènmi a, ak ki 'tevanyan sòlda nou Wouj Lame asire viktwa konplè a kont fachis Almay.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Mwen swete w nan lavni an, pandan peryòd la nan konstriksyon lapè, plis siksè nankòz la nan ekspòte nan atiyri zam ak ekipman pou endistri yo chabon-min ak lwil oliv nan peyi nou an.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Important work PD is doing, i hope you'll agree.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 3, 2012)

amazing


----------



## rekil (May 3, 2012)

Paper name suggestions pls. I've gone off "The Proletarian Bugle" and I like "The Hammer" now.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 3, 2012)

*Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) – Collective Statement 2*

*Socialism or Barbieism*



















A choice is facing humanity. It is a straight forward one. On the one hand there is a potentially blissful future built on solidarity, equality and freedom, a future in which care, respect and innovation blossom. While one the other there is what we can already see all too clearly; the burgeoning apocalypse in which increasingly alienated and atomised individuals, turn their gaze inwards in increasingly desperate, destructive and futile attempts to find meaning and fulfilment through their lonely selves.

Faced with this reality the PFF of PD calls for the formation of workers militias to suppress:

All cosmetic surgery (including so called reconstructive surgery which simply reproduces bourgeois concepts of individualised beauty).​All psychotherapy (unless carried out in groups of at least 100 and in full view of the class).​All 'fashion' retailers; Dickies work wear to be made available through all large Co-op stores as a move towards expunging the desire for 'fashion' from the class.​All mirrors; this includes any reflective surface.​ 
Remember comrades the only mirror the working class needs is that of class conscious reflection.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)




----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

The banning of all clothes except duffel coats and workmen's overalls as a transitional step to the abolition of clothes.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

Also, "comrade" why did you not mention hairdressers and nail bars and beauty salons, or for that matter a position on the hat question? You speak fine words about the evils of the fashion industry but I notice this doesn't extend to hair or nails


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> *Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) – Collective Statement 2*
> 
> *Socialism or Barbieism*
> 
> ...


 

Jonny Favourite argued for cosmetic surgery and tattoo removal to be free on the NHS and in the Workers Power manifesto.Whilst a few Trot diehards argued against it others thought this would be good for some peoples self esteem.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Also, "comrade" why did you not mention hairdressers and nail bars and beauty salons, or for that matter a position on the hat question? You speak fine words about the evils of the fashion industry but I notice this doesn't extend to hair or nails


 
*One Solution! Depilation!*​​*




*​​*Smooth the path to proletarian victory!*​


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 3, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Jonny Favourite argued for cosmetic surgery and tattoo removal to be free on the NHS and in the Workers Power manifesto.Whilst a few Trot diehards argued against it others thought this would be good for some peoples self esteem.


 
It is hardly suprising the Jonny Favourite argued as he did; he was afterall engaged in a degenerate flirtation with the arch 'fashionists' of Conrad's dry cleaner funded CPGB (PCC)faction. Moreover comrade Step self esteem itself must be broken on the wheel of collective criticism and remade as class pride.

All the best - Louis MacNeice


----------



## BigTom (May 3, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> *Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) – Collective Statement 2*
> 
> *Socialism or Barbieism*
> 
> ...


 
 Whilst I agree with the sentiment comrade, I feel I must point out that without mirrors we would not have telescopes to spy the socialist aliens.
Nor would we have mirror balls in nightclubs to enhance our collective experience.

I feel some refinement to this demand is in order.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> Paper name suggestions pls. I've gone off "The Proletarian Bugle" and I like "The Hammer" now.


 
Workers' Anvil


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> Workers' Anvil


Workers' Piledriver "These are the piles on which socialism will sit, and we are driving them." R.S.Grape


----------



## DotCommunist (May 3, 2012)

Truth


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Whilst I agree with the sentiment comrade, I feel I must point out that without mirrors we would not have telescopes to spy the socialist aliens.
> Nor would we have mirror balls in nightclubs to enhance our collective experience.
> 
> I feel some refinement to this demand is in order.


 

Radio telescopes if we have to look for aliens; but seeing as they will necessarily be more advanced than us, and therefore socialist, we should be deferring to their preferred time, place and mode of contact.

As for night clubs...why do you give yourself such airs and graces? The rest of us will be happy with our collective singing of educational and uplifting songs; is this not enough for your rarefied sensibilities?
Take care comrade Tom - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Worker's Truth


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 3, 2012)

JimW said:


> Workers' Piledriver "These are the piles on which socialism will sit, and we are driving them." R.S.Grape


 
Let it be this please.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## BigTom (May 3, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Radio telescopes if we have to look for aliens; but seeing as they will necessarily be more advanced than us, and therefore socialist, we should be deferring to their preferred time, place and mode of contact.
> 
> As for night clubs...why do you give yourself such airs and graces? The rest of us will be happy with our collective singing of educational and uplifting songs; is this not enough for your rarefied sensibilities?
> Take care comrade Tom - Louis MacNeice


 
I feel all members of our society should take an active role in the search for aliens for cultural reasons, even if it is extremely unlikely that first contact would be made using mirror telescopes.
I consider it excessive to remove our right to search the skies.  I would suggest that all mirrors must be licenced and regularly checked to ensure that they are used for their correct and approved purpose.

I take your second point and am humbly shamed for holding on to bourgeois modes of entertainment, I shall seek to improve myself.


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

this thread is great


----------



## Random (May 3, 2012)

Doesn't PD have any front groups yet? I suggest "Atomic", the friendly social group for those interested in chatting about issues related to the promotion of nuclear power, and nuclear war.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Piledrivers aren't very image friendly


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)




----------



## Random (May 3, 2012)

Over 5 million people have bought Fallout 3. I'd like to claim all of these people as potential members of Atomic, just like all 100,000 people at Glastonbury are in the anarchist camp.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Workers Fallout?


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

Atomic need some sort of promotional stunt, and some demo chants.


----------



## Random (May 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Atomic need some sort of promotional stunt, and some demo chants.


A banner-drop at CND conference?


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

Atomic - Promoting the Power of the Workers

Atomic is a new group for young people which promotes nuclear power and nuclear war. It is not affiliated to any political party. We are also opposed to capitalism in all its forms.

This year we are organising a sponsored run across the roof of Fukushima's second reactor in order to illustrate the point that nuclear power is actually completely safe and to force the corrupt nuclear bosses to make it less so.


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> Workers Fallout?


Fission - we're for it and we're also always splitting


----------



## Random (May 3, 2012)

Celebrate Oppenheimer Day with Atomic!

Edit: Fission is better


----------



## DotCommunist (May 3, 2012)

irradiation not mediation


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)




----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)

Random said:


> Celebrate Oppenheimer Day with Atomic!
> 
> Edit: Fission is better


Plus all those 'fishing' puns to be made - "Fission chips away at the hegemony of bourgeois anti-science..."


----------



## BigTom (May 3, 2012)

Random said:


> Doesn't PD have any front groups yet? I suggest "Atomic", the friendly social group for those interested in chatting about issues related to the promotion of nuclear power, and nuclear war.


 
Years ago I had this idea for a joke that I couldn't be bothered to do, which could work here. In response to concerns about the environment, we setup a group called "Campaign for Climate Change Prevention".
I think it needs to use red as its main colour - to symbolise the danger of climate change, and the bloodshed that will occur if we don't act.
I also feel that it should display simpler tools to reflect the need to reduce our energy use by adopting less energy intensive forms of activity, and that this would mostly come from two areas, agriculture and industry. Thus we need an agricultural tool, say a sickle, and an industrial tool - perhaps a hammer - as our logo.

I don't really have the graphic design skills to create such an emblem, but perhaps we can find something suitable out there...





chilango said:


> Piledrivers aren't very image friendlyView attachment 18804


 
Lovely, but I think you need to move the piledriver graphic because it reads "Workers Piled River" to me.


----------



## Red Storm (May 3, 2012)

Last two pages have been fantastic!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 3, 2012)

Disappointing lack of PD candidates standing in the local elections today.

A valuable chance to make the case for the workers bomb to millions has been squandered comrades.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 3, 2012)

As for front groups can we have;

*The Shining Motorway - driving to the workers future.*​_because motorways bring the workers together as fast as possible!_​


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

We need a position on the roads, comrades and also to discourage the superstitious "road markings" so beloved of the bourgeoisie. What would really happen if you drove down a motorway the wrong way? Nothing, but that doesn't stop the bourgeoisie and their sickening hypocritical cries of "road safety" when capitalism is more dangerous than any car driving at 90 miles per hour with a flat tyre and black smoke coming out of it.


----------



## chilango (May 3, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> As for front groups can we have;
> 
> *The Shining Motorway - driving to the workers future.*​_because motorways bring the workers together as fast as possible!_​



Wasn't that pretty much the RCP position during road protests...


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)




----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)

ETA: Trying to shoehorn an 'Occupy' joke in there but not really working


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 3, 2012)

Truth is stranger than fiction.


----------



## barney_pig (May 3, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Truth is stranger than fiction.


two multi page articles attacking one former member who has wandered off to do something else.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> Paper name suggestions pls. I've gone off "The Proletarian Bugle" and I like "The Hammer" now.


 
Socialist Crank.


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Socialist Crank.


"Your handle on the frontline of the class war"


----------



## frogwoman (May 3, 2012)

i like workers piledriver although i think the piledriver should be in a different position


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i like workers piledriver although i think the piledriver should be in a different position


We need something that subtly suggest an arsehole (i.e nothing obvious like a picture of Clegg), maybe a shining hole in the clouds through which the proletarian dawn is breaking and a distant glint of a flying saucer can be glimpsed.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 3, 2012)

yes a circle sun with six wobbly rays extending from it


----------



## rekil (May 3, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> should be a t shirt


Not before everyone else (starting with Proletarian Action ) has been excoriated for being lifestylist enabling somnambulant "t-shirt parties" etc.


----------



## chilango (May 4, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i like workers piledriver although i think the piledriver should be in a different position


 
Y'see the problem with workers piledriver is that the piledriver does not lend itself to a simple graphic unlike a hammer or an anvil or indeed a crank.


----------



## emanymton (May 4, 2012)

Workers High pressure water spray - washing away the muck of ages.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 4, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Workers High pressure water spray - washing away the muck of ages.


 
Workers Karcher sounds well communist


----------



## The39thStep (May 4, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> two multi page articles attacking one former member who has wandered off to do something else.


 
I was talking to a couple of blokes in the local bowls club  who said that their womens B team couldn't get enough of the edition  a couple of weeks ago with the front page on the history of patriarchy


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 4, 2012)

Random said:


> Doesn't PD have any front groups yet? I suggest "Atomic", the friendly social group for those interested in chatting about issues related to the promotion of nuclear power, and nuclear war.


 
There's The Association for Workers Time (TWAT).


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 4, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Disappointing lack of PD candidates standing in the local elections today.
> 
> A valuable chance to make the case for the workers bomb to millions has been squandered comrades.


 
One of the TUSC candidates in Sheffield was a PD entrist in the Socialist Party.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 4, 2012)

Workers' Stilsons






Unscrewing the flange of late capitalist chauvinism to liberate the pipe of the working class, spraying proletarian democracy across the cosmos!


----------



## JimW (May 4, 2012)

Workers' Screed - levelling the land for concrete justice! (and writing screeds)


----------



## chilango (May 4, 2012)

*Workers Girder*

...fuck yeah.

I'm doing this one.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 4, 2012)

chilango said:


> *Workers Girder*
> 
> ...fuck yeah.
> 
> I'm doing this one.


 
Sponsored by Irn Bru


----------



## rekil (May 4, 2012)

Workers' Big Tools. With Mr.Cool Ice's camp skull tattoo and wrenches as logo.


----------



## chilango (May 4, 2012)

chilango said:


> *Workers Girder*
> 
> ...fuck yeah.
> 
> I'm doing this one.


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2012)

Fantastic 

Are you going to get sacked?


----------



## chilango (May 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Fantastic
> 
> Are you going to get sacked?


 
I've resigned.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 4, 2012)

One for the Posadists in our ranks http://foranewleftliberty.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/vote-for-professor-pongo.html

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## mk12 (May 4, 2012)

What's the PD view on the elections?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 4, 2012)

mk12 said:


> What's the PD view on the elections?



PD (candidate for the workers bomb) comrades have returned stunning results everywhere we stood.


----------



## Random (May 4, 2012)

mk12 said:


> What's the PD view on the elections?


Vote Conservative, in order to confuse the ruling class and lull them into a false sense of security.


----------



## BigTom (May 4, 2012)

mk12 said:


> What's the PD view on the elections?


 
We have found a definite comrade in Glasgow iirc, beat the Lib Dem's too:



Louis MacNeice said:


> One for the Posadists in our ranks http://foranewleftliberty.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/vote-for-professor-pongo.html
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## belboid (May 4, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> One of the TUSC candidates in Sheffield was a PD entrist in the Socialist Party.


I hope this is the one who just helped the Liberal hold the seat!  A massive success on a first attempt, if so (and the most influence Workers Power have had over an election ever)


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 4, 2012)

belboid said:


> I hope this is the one who just helped the Liberal hold the seat! A massive success on a first attempt, if so (and the most influence Workers Power have had over an election ever)


 
Which ward was that in? I ended up missing the count so I've not heard any of the results yet.


----------



## JimW (May 4, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 18848


Where are the women comrades? Or the aliens? Your commitment to revolutionary diversity remains suspect, Cmrd. Chilango.


----------



## chilango (May 4, 2012)

JimW said:


> Where are the women comrades? Or the aliens? Your commitment to revolutionary diversity remains suspect, Cmrd. Chilango.


 
Third from left is a chick.

The two on the far right are both martians.

Don't make judgements based on appearance cde.


----------



## Random (May 4, 2012)

JimW said:


> Where are the women comrades? Or the aliens? Your commitment to revolutionary diversity remains suspect, Cmrd. Chilango.


Everyone knows that skyscraper building was dominated by Native Americans. And who is it that draws huge alien landing strips in the desert? Clearly the native American builders are a more advanced layer of the solar system's proletariat.


----------



## belboid (May 4, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Which ward was that in? I ended up missing the count so I've not heard any of the results yet.


Graves Park


----------



## JimW (May 4, 2012)

Random said:


> Everyone knows that skyscraper building was dominated by Native Americans. And who is it that draws huge alien landing strips in the desert? Clearly the native American builders are a more advanced layer of the solar system's proletariat.


'What is the PD line? It is the Nazca line!"


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 4, 2012)

belboid said:


> Graves Park


 
No, it's not him. Hilariously the one who stood in Graves Park is a former Lib Dem so I'm going to use this to wind him up mercilessly (a few years ago when he was very young to be fair).


----------



## belboid (May 4, 2012)

aah, shame, I can guess which seat it is then I think


----------



## rekil (May 4, 2012)

mk12 said:


> What's the PD view on the elections?


PD backed Johnson, see the blog. Apart from that, elections are of little consequence as energies are focused on compiling a roadmap to working class emancipation, the first step being to acquire more twitter followers than Proletarian Action.


----------



## Random (May 4, 2012)

BTW, forgot to ask in an earlier stage of the thread. Is the chap who produced Revolution and Truth a certain C.C., who lived in Brighton? Always got on with him myself.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 4, 2012)

belboid said:


> aah, shame, I can guess which seat it is then I think


 
Sure he wouldn't mind me saying which seat it is - Walkley. He's very young but a good lad and sound politically.

disclaimer for anyone without a sense of humour who takes this seriously and considers grassing him up to TUSC/the SP - it's a joke ffs


----------



## bluestreak (May 4, 2012)

JimW said:


> 'What is the PD line? It is the Nazca line!"


 
We are all Inca!


----------



## audiotech (May 4, 2012)

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004821


----------



## imposs1904 (May 5, 2012)

JimW said:


> Where are the women comrades? Or the aliens? Your commitment to revolutionary diversity remains suspect, Cmrd. Chilango.


 
why should this new movement be different from any other left group before it?


----------



## JimW (May 5, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> why should this new movement be different from any other left group before it?


Because no previous movement has combined the raw proletarian power of several galaxies with such a large and varied selection of tools and implements on its masthead.

ETA: "PD - a varied selection of tools"


----------



## imposs1904 (May 5, 2012)

JimW said:


> Because no previous movement has combined the raw proletarian power of several galaxies with *such a large and varied selection of tools* and implements on its masthead.


 
That reminds me. When's Marxism this year?


----------



## JimW (May 5, 2012)

I see the same joke occured to us simultaneously


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 5, 2012)

JimW said:


> Where are the women comrades?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 5, 2012)

Got your memory stick out again?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 5, 2012)

No, I misplaced it at a school.


----------



## newbie (May 5, 2012)

To: the letters editor.

Dear Sir,

As a horny handed son of toil I see no evidence that PDs degenerate organ Worker's Tool is properly thrusting to  expose itself to women workers. 

The international working class insists on reorientation.

Cast off those chains, women workers. Demand the Workers Tool.

I remain, sir, yr obdt svt.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> why should this new movement be different from any other left group before it?


 
Differentiation  between different the multitude of  sects across the world has obsessed the Trotskyist movement for nearly a century. PD is simply not on this planet


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 5, 2012)

Quite.


----------



## BigTom (May 5, 2012)

Comrades, I submit a preview column to give you an idea of what kind of advice Auntie Joe Stalin would give.  Obviously these problems are invented, but I feel are representative of the type of problems I would expect.


----------



## BigTom (May 5, 2012)

Whoever suggested Wilhelm Reich 
getting hold of "The Sexual Rights of Youth" would give endless material for a sex tips for the youth division type column, in the style of more magazine, using direct quotes from the book.
The one I have there is direct from the book, which I've not found an online copy of yet.  Apparently chapter four is:



> "Chapter 4 - Difficulties of Comradeship" is heavily imbued with political slogans and terminology, with lengthy comparisons of bourgeois and proletarian adolescence that makes for some difficult reading. Even in his revision, The Sexual Rights of Youth-- in which Reich omits all political terminology--some of the discussions here can appear rather dated today.


 
There's quite a lot of quotes here:
http://www.wilhelmreichtrust.org/sexual_struggle_of_youth-2009_03_21.html


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Whoever suggested Wilhelm Reich
> getting hold of "The Sexual Rights of Youth" would give endless material for a sex tips for the youth division type column, in the style of more magazine, using direct quotes from the book.
> The one I have there is direct from the book, which I've not found an online copy of yet. Apparently chapter four is:
> 
> ...


 
It was me and what you say is exactly what I was thinking about


----------



## chilango (May 5, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Comrades, I submit a preview column to give you an idea of what kind of advice Auntie Joe Stalin would give.  Obviously these problems are invented, but I feel are representative of the type of problems I would expect.
> View attachment 18894



Full page spread, fuckin brilliant.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 5, 2012)

newbie said:


> To: the letters editor.
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> ...


 
That's because a PD comrade once did expose himself to women workers and ended up getting a 4 stretch in Bedford nick.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 5, 2012)

Reich's stuff on orgones is pretty fucking funny.


----------



## frogwoman (May 5, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Comrades, I submit a preview column to give you an idea of what kind of advice Auntie Joe Stalin would give. Obviously these problems are invented, but I feel are representative of the type of problems I would expect.
> View attachment 18894


that is amazing.


----------



## JimW (May 6, 2012)

It's been literally hours since our last split and frankly that's not good enough, so I'm forming an external faction that confuses dialectics with dianetics and wins over the essential proletarian constituency of buck-toothed Hollywood celebs.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 6, 2012)

STFU and have another girder.







By the way, what does it say on the bottom?  It's from the GLF, yes?


----------



## JimW (May 6, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> STFU and have another girder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pic won't show up here, says imageshack is a blocked domain  The agents of the hegemony conspire against us. If you PM me the direct link might be able to see it using a proxy.
ETA: Found the link looking at the page source; it says "Forge more good steel and speed up socialist construction!" Wise words indeed.
ETA: Note how the lad has his 3D goggles still on after enjoying the advanced entertainment available to workers on their lunchbreak decades before the decadent West.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 7, 2012)

Maoist bees comrade, swarms of them, taking down the reactionary forces of the Indian state

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17980228


----------



## Idris2002 (May 7, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> STFU and have another girder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I didn't know they drank Irn-Bru in China.


----------



## stethoscope (May 7, 2012)

Give it a rest.


----------



## chilango (May 7, 2012)

Drop the snitch said:


> same old turgid spam


 
Y'know, this ain't helping anyone to take you seriously....


----------



## chilango (May 7, 2012)

Before I go back to ignoring you, one quick point.

I don't know whether you have a legitmiate point about Alex Gordon.

But after your spammy posts I can say that I will not be bothering to find out.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 7, 2012)

Riiiiight.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 7, 2012)

Drop the snitch, I don't think doing what you're doing is going to help very much y'know. Just sayin'


----------



## Belushi (May 7, 2012)

I have no idea who Alex Gordon is, but my sympathy for him grows with every post this obsessive makes.


----------



## Belushi (May 7, 2012)

That's just a link from a loon who goes around angrily spamming bulletin boards, you'll forgive me for thinking there may be another side to the story.


----------



## Belushi (May 7, 2012)

And now anyone who questions you is an 'apologist'  Great stuff.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 7, 2012)

Belushi said:


> And now anyone who questions you is an 'apologist'  Great stuff.


 
I was just thinking the exact same thing  comedy gold, this thread just gets better and better


----------



## Belushi (May 7, 2012)

Drop the snitch said:


> Unfounded "mental health" insinuations don't look good.
> 
> Or do you just think that the use of the term "loon" is "funny"?
> 
> Where is your explanation that Alex Gordon (RMT President) is NOT a snitch?


 
If you dont want people to think you may have mental health issues dont obsessively spam forums.

I have no idea whether Gordon is a snitch or not - but one things for sure, I'm not going to take the word of the kind of person that believes repeatedly spamming threads is going to win people to their side.

It's the internet equivalent of standing by the side of the road shouting at cars.


----------



## stethoscope (May 7, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (May 7, 2012)

This thread has just overtaken "why the lib dems are shit" in the race for the SpineyNorman best thread on urban trophy. 

Congratulations red storm, commiserations butchersapron - but it's not over yet. Some crap jokes on this thread, or a couple of gags about Mark Oaten and poo on why the lib dems are shit could easily swing it the other way.


----------



## rekil (May 7, 2012)

There's a Mexican lawyer following the twitter feed. PD extends a comradely welcome to this member of the favoured labour caste.


----------



## JimW (May 7, 2012)

These recent exchanges clearly point to the necessity for PD to approach Mr Gordon with a view to have him edit 'Workers' Firehose'. I can understand this may cause disquiet among those comrades used to our previous stance of fanning any and every conflagration, but now it is time to advance to a more mature position; one spark may start a prairie fire, but one carelessly discarded fag-end could reduce our proletarian gains to ashes. There would also be ample scope for cooperation with the cmdes in 'Workers' Chip-pan'. Indeed, the incendiary dialectic (contd. p.96)


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 7, 2012)

"Drop the snitch" appears to have been edited out of history.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 7, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 7, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> "Drop the snitch" appears to have been edited out of history.


 
You don't mess with Proletarian Democracy and stay in history for long.


----------



## Belushi (May 7, 2012)

Did Uncle Joe just push him overboard?


----------



## stethoscope (May 7, 2012)

Cover up!!!11!1!


----------



## JimW (May 7, 2012)

Now to add Billy Mainwaring into the gap.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 7, 2012)

It's NKVD chief Nikolai Yezhov, the drunken, 'bloody dwarf.'


----------



## petee (May 7, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


>


 
excellent book, _the commissar vanishes_


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 7, 2012)

King also did a book of NKVD mugshots taken of suspects during the Terror.


----------



## Col_Buendia (May 7, 2012)

copliker said:


> Still have no idea what this means. If you want to sort it out, you can have the login. I think there's a twitter problem. Early on the account got suspended, maybe it got reported it as spam or something (by ern?), but it's not showing up in searches and whatnot. Or is it? Anyway.
> 
> Proletarian Democracy Backs Boris Johnson For London Mayor.


 
OK, what I'm trying to get at is that when you hit the Twitter button at the bottom of an article (in the "Share This" bit, next to the Facebook button), a dialogue box pops up with the text of a tweet, ready to be tweeted (presumably if you're logged on on Twitter at the same time). When I did it for the above article, this is the box that popped up:





My point is that in this dialogue box, the text has no default mention of PD (only inserts the title of the article, which in this case happened to mention PD), nor does it use any hashtags to start or keep a Twitter conversation going. It's not really a big deal, but it seems to me to use the Twitter machine effectively you would want to insert a default #proldem (or some such) hashtag into the default text, as well as a clear mention of the blog title. If you want, PM me the login and I'll have a poke around, but I'm not an expert, so I can't promise you anthing (comrade)


----------



## barney_pig (May 7, 2012)

http://ansamed.ansa.it/ansamed/en/n...litary-radio-holds-party-Trotsky_6802490.html
Apparently they have heard about a man called trotsky and they have a bomb.


----------



## Random (May 9, 2012)

PD should be working to infilstrate both Israel and Pakistan, and try to get them to kick off. All hail the Israeli extreme right and their efforts to bring capitalism to its logical conclusion: nuclear war!


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 9, 2012)

Random said:


> PD should be working to infilstrate both Israel and Pakistan, and try to get them to kick off. All hail the Israeli extreme right and their efforts to bring capitalism to its logical conclusion: nuclear war!


 
There's definitely an article for the paper in that and probably a party decree too.


----------



## Random (May 9, 2012)

The Theory of Deflected Nuclear War (2004):
We condemn the cowardly actions ofOsama Bin Laden and GW Bush. In refusing to use nuclear weapons they have purposefully prevented the emergence of the true expression of class conflict. Both these Bonapartist paper tigers know that an Atomic conflict would result in the final victory of the workers.
BRUSH ASIDE THE BONAPARTISTS! ESCALATE TO NUCLEAR WAR NOW
THERE'S NOTHING DIRTY ABOUT THE BOMB WE WANT!


----------



## BigTom (May 9, 2012)

I've totally nicked the phoenix from the sidebar of someone's blog that hasn't been posted on since 2010 and isn't clear if they were the person who drew it, which I feel a bit guilty about.. Not sure about the slogan at the top.

Also, I think it'd look better if the graphic of the PD logo was solid on top, with just the text blended like I've done it, is the graphic available on it's own?


----------



## Red Storm (May 9, 2012)

BigTom said:


> View attachment 18989
> I've totally nicked the phoenix from the sidebar of someone's blog that hasn't been posted on since 2010 and isn't clear if they were the person who drew it, which I feel a bit guilty about.. Not sure about the slogan at the top.
> 
> Also, I think it'd look better if the graphic of the PD logo was solid on top, with just the text blended like I've done it, is the graphic available on it's own?


 
Thats fantastic


----------



## JimW (May 9, 2012)

BigTom said:


> View attachment 18989
> I've totally nicked the phoenix from the sidebar of someone's blog that hasn't been posted on since 2010 and isn't clear if they were the person who drew it, which I feel a bit guilty about..


Comrade, comrade, is this what years of political education result in? Pusillanimous bourgeois guilt at your entirely admirable expropriation of an image (itself the product of the collective art consciousness) to be pressed into service f the Great Conflagration?


----------



## frogwoman (May 9, 2012)

A modest suggestion, comrades! We should compile a List of every government which used violence against the far left in the 70s, and petition them all for £100, 000, personally.


----------



## barney_pig (May 10, 2012)

still no mention of the glorious rise of the proletarian phoenix in the counter revolutionary pages of weekly worker! just more pages devoted to the anti proletarian milieu 'anti capitalist' initiative, and its habit of making a CPGB member do something else for a bit.


----------



## rekil (May 12, 2012)

Venezuela crossword Chavez assassination plot denied.

That reminds me. Workers Girder needs a crossword. Are any of them crossword making sites any good?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 12, 2012)

Just had someone from the new anticapitalist initiative spamming a socialist party student facebook group I'm a member of.

I was naturally ecstatic when I saw this and, not wishing to pass over an opportunity for an intervention, posted the following in reply:



> This is the new initiative from the rump Workers' Power and the various splinter groups isn't it? If so we at Proletarian Democracy (http://proletariandemocracy.wordpress.com/) would like to extend fraternal greetings to the glorious fifth international and request affiliation to this important new formation. I can assure you that the working class in its entirety was devastated when we heard that workers power had split, only to rejoice when we found that you were regrouping in an identical organisation with a different name!
> 
> Onwards to world revolution!


 
They haven't got back to me yet


----------



## BigTom (May 15, 2012)

Our message to the Lib Dems, on hearing they are falling behind UKIP in polls, and a proposal for our placard for the LIb Dem conference demonstration:


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 15, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Our message to the Lib Dems, on hearing they are falling behind UKIP in polls, and a proposal for our placard for the LIb Dem conference demonstration:


 
I'm nicking that for facebook


----------



## BigTom (May 15, 2012)

Having noticed the awkward capitalisation of the poster, I went to change it. Oddly, it actually looks nicest with the missing capital letter.  Two capital T's so close together just looks awkward, in that font at least.
Also, I'm struck by the similarity of the pose of Nelson and the PD figure in the logo.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2012)

Nelson is bare lumpen


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (May 15, 2012)

Posted it on the other thread but this is the greatest thing I have ever created ever in my life since I was born so I wanted to show it off here too.


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Having noticed the awkward capitalisation of the poster, I went to change it. Oddly, it actually looks nicest with the missing capital letter. Two capital T's so close together just looks awkward, in that font at least.
> Also, I'm struck by the similarity of the pose of Nelson and the PD figure in the logo.


 
A bit rushed but...


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 15, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 19223


 
That looks like a Labour poster


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That looks like a Labour poster


 
I know...


----------



## frogwoman (May 15, 2012)

chilango said:


> A bit rushed but...
> 
> View attachment 19225


 
That is great


----------



## BigTom (May 15, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 19223


 
Quality


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2012)

*Party decree on drugs *

Comrades, the bourgeois reformism of many in the "pro-drugs" camp is evident for all to see! While bourgeois workerist elements such as phildwyer denounce the vigilantist chauvinism of many on the so-called "left", and this is to be welcomed, they stop short of calling for mandatory drug-taking for all. We in Proletarian Democracy have no such illusions. We denounce the petty bourgeois calls for "legalisation" because they do not go far enough! Drug-taking must be made compulsory! After the revolution everyone will be constantly on drugs, man, woman, and child. Only class-A drugs will enable the proletarian vanguard to carry through its revolutionary programme (because everyone will be too fucked to care or notice the Workers' Bomb being built)


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2012)

A fascist activist:


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 16, 2012)

Builders' Crack.


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2012)

For drugs of all strengths to be available at all times, in all places! For drug-taking to be compulsory over the age of 6, and for Workers' Defence Squads to be set up to enforce this! For the supplementation of wages with drugs as a step towards the abolition of the wage system altogether! No to fascism!


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2012)

chilango said:


> A fascist activist:


 
Another example of the flawed tactics of the so-called "left" and official "anti-fascism", which we in Proletarian Democracy know to be a cover for fascism of the worst kind! Look at this website - www.talktofrank.com. Do you see the "a-z" link? See how the fascists brainwash the youth!






What would happen if we placed three other z's in a clockwise pattern onto the first one? use your imagination! 

The "left" has wasted it's time, concentrating on the NF, the BNP, EDL, Golden Dawn, etc, none of which are really fascist at all, since many of them favour the legalisation of drugs, meanwhile completely ignoring the evil in it's midst  Was this intentional, or was it deliberate?

The crypto-fascists and outright neo-nazis of the "Talk to Frank" website and the National Drugs Helpline must never be allowed to succeed! No pasaran!

We must set up Workers' Defence Squads to march on the houses of those who made this fascist Trojan horse in the proletariat!


----------



## BigTom (May 16, 2012)

All in line with my "opium to be the opium of the masses" suggestion from earlier in the thread! An excellent programmatic development comrade. No To Fascism! Yes To Druggism!






I also made these with the inspiring words of comrade FW, but didn't want to flood the boards with the imagery.  One with the needle, one with the spliff, words on the right and [druggist] at the top.

http://imgur.com/ZcNcz
http://imgur.com/IpV56 

(please tell me my memory is right and the SWP people where called Squaddists)


----------



## chilango (May 16, 2012)

Awesome


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2012)

That is fantastic


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 16, 2012)

BigTom said:


> All in line with my "opium to be the opium of the masses" suggestion from earlier in the thread! An excellent programmatic development comrade. No To Fascism! Yes To Druggism!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
With the exception of my Clegg pull my finger placard (obviously) that's the best and most programmatically correct piece of propaganda I've ever seen. Bravo comrades BigTom and frogwoman!

Also, treelover asked me to upload a video for him on another thread so I thought it was the perfect excuse to set up a proletarian democracy youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/proletariandem?feature=mhee (PM for logon)


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2012)

Proof of the fascists' genocidal intentions: 

http://www.talktofrank.com/adventures-of-pablo

Now, what possible reason could there be for choosing a foreign-sounding name for a drug-smuggling dog, apart from to openly display their Nazi sympathies for all to see?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 16, 2012)

Perhaps they have been entered by Proletarian Democracy [pabloist]?


----------



## frogwoman (May 16, 2012)

Pablo, cursed be his name


----------



## barney_pig (May 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Proof of the fascists' genocidal intentions:
> 
> http://www.talktofrank.com/adventures-of-pablo
> 
> Now, what possible reason could there be for choosing a foreign-sounding name for a drug-smuggling dog, apart from to openly display their Nazi sympathies for all to see?


a commitment to centuries of degenerated workers smack?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 16, 2012)

The workers works!


----------



## Captain Hurrah (May 17, 2012)

Builders' Crack helps you to keep on Building Socialism.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 17, 2012)

We're opposed to coke though right? Partly cos it's named after a yankee imperialist drink and partly cos it's the favoured drug of the overlords of finance capital.


----------



## Superdupastupor (May 17, 2012)

Coke fucks with the praxis 

 avoid


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2012)

So now the Daily Mail have featured the Proletarian Democracy YouTube channel (in serious, tragic circumstances unfortunately) surely an expose of Britain's Nuke-loving far-left will follow?


----------



## frogwoman (May 17, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 17, 2012)




----------



## JimW (May 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> <place-holder>


Currently a big story here that persons in DPRK uniform arrested/kidnapped some Chinese fishermen in the sea between the two countries and want a ransom or they're dead. They seem to be trying to start it with the capitalist roaders in Beijing.


----------



## chilango (May 17, 2012)

I was going to edit the page from When the Wind Blows, turns out I didn't need to....


----------



## frogwoman (May 17, 2012)

Never again will we have the torture of knowing whether fascists have attended our demonstrations, comrades! With the amazing fascist-finding petition above all we have to do to know the true face of the enemy is to check what they ticked in the last box! Never again will the swamp of pseudo-left wing organisations have an excuse, and be able to say that they "didn't know" about the anti-drugs "charities" and their black-shirted cohorts! Will they adopt such a device on their petitions? If they were serious about fighting fascism, then they would - but we all know the answer to that, don't we


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 17, 2012)

Awesome - and I mean that in the true sense of the word. That has to go on the blog and I think we need a petitions section so that the workers who already know about pd can print them off and take our program to the class.


----------



## rekil (May 18, 2012)

Lots more material from here yet to go on the blog etc. 


Col_Buendia said:


> OK, what I'm trying to get at is that when you hit the Twitter button at the bottom of an article (in the "Share This" bit, next to the Facebook button), a dialogue box pops up with the text of a tweet, ready to be tweeted (presumably if you're logged on on Twitter at the same time). When I did it for the above article, this is the box that popped up:
> 
> 
> My point is that in this dialogue box, the text has no default mention of PD (only inserts the title of the article, which in this case happened to mention PD), nor does it use any hashtags to start or keep a Twitter conversation going. It's not really a big deal, but it seems to me to use the Twitter machine effectively you would want to insert a default #proldem (or some such) hashtag into the default text, as well as a clear mention of the blog title. If you want, PM me the login and I'll have a poke around, but I'm not an expert, so I can't promise you anthing (comrade)


Did you get a chance to have a look at this?


----------



## frogwoman (May 18, 2012)

Also lots more material from the FB group to go on the blog


----------



## frogwoman (May 18, 2012)

copliker said:


> Lots more material from here yet to go on the blog etc.
> 
> Did you get a chance to have a look at this?


 
I bet "comrade" Col_Buendia wouldn't want to partake in any drugs that were offered to him. 

And we all know what that means


----------



## Col_Buendia (May 19, 2012)

copliker said:


> you get a chance to have a look at this?


 
Aye, I did spend an hour or two poking around on Wordpress, but from what I could see, there was no option to customize the text that appears in the box that pops up when you hit the "Tweet This" button. So sorry, wasn't able to be any help there.


----------



## Col_Buendia (May 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I bet "comrade" Col_Buendia wouldn't want to partake in any drugs that were offered to him.
> 
> And we all know what that means


And no, I wasn't high at the time  Zealot.


----------



## BigTom (May 19, 2012)

Comrades, today the friendly face of our class enemy, the emblems of the reformist millieu, the Labour Party, through John McDonnell have released their vision against austerity, titled (not so originally) Another World Is Possible

Their appropriation of a slogan long used by the radical left is but the latest attempt to fool people into thinking their watered down reformist agenda can deliver a true workers state.
We must fight this propaganda with our own, reclaim the phrase and state the only true path to a true workers state - through the workers bomb!:


----------



## BigTom (May 20, 2012)

Better version of yesterdays propaganda


----------



## rekil (May 20, 2012)

Beautiful. Good idea to have one grammatical error in all PD stuff as well.


----------



## BigTom (May 20, 2012)

oh yeah, that grammatical error was totally intentional. totally.


----------



## frogwoman (May 20, 2012)

just had a great idea for workers girder - may be too controversial though


----------



## BigTom (May 20, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> just had a great idea for workers girder - may be too controversial though


 
We cannot be afraid to breach areas of conversation for being considered controversial comrade. Was not Marx's writings on the wood laws controversial? Let others cry their words of fear as we push the boundaries and incite further discussions, bringing the name of Proletarian Democracy into the homes and minds of more people!


----------



## barney_pig (May 20, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> just had a great idea for workers girder - may be too controversial though


its not NAMBLA is it?


----------



## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

*Communique from the External Faction *

Over the last few years a group of us in Proletarian Democracy decided that the left has been utterly unfit for purpose. We decided that its time to slay the old shibboleths of the organised Cobweb Left such as the idea that capitalism is bad. Why is it bad, especially if I could get rich? The leftist project has alienated vast sections of the working class including bankers, doctors and stockbrokers.

Furthermore the liberal cobweb left has failed to spot the rise of a disturbing phenomenon which threatens the future of both the working class but the Workers' Bomb itself. Fuelled by a decades-long compesnation culture, the Workers Bomb is now a distant dream because as soon as it was set off, liberal faint-hearts would immediately sue the people who set it off. In other words those who fear the whip and the lash but are all too happy to claim for whiplash. A new and distinct social formation has emerged, bent on mindless greedy parasitism. We call these people ... lawyers.

The liberal left has utterly failed to address the culture of compensation. The legal threats bandied around to Proletarian Democracy's members of late is simply the militant wing of the culture which permits people to sue for spilling coffee on themselves or for falling on the pavement. This was ignored and even welcomed by the sections of the New Leftist project, including many of our former comrades. Why not squeeze every penny from our capitalist overlords, the question was asked, never mind the catastrophic consequences that could result? But this naive and opportunist stance simply provoked the rise and rise of firms of solicitors bent on destroying the very fabric of working class communities which we will rely on to create the Workers' Bomb.

No win no fee! is their cry. How different that is to the trans continental railway workers' cry of No Pay No Lay and the glorious struggles of a once proud working class which has been deserted in favour of this new social formation so beloved of liberals, the New Left and Trotskyites everywhere! Is this what we have come to, comrades? The class's historical mission, to build the workers' bomb, has been abandoned to unearned remuneration. Working class action has been sacrificed on the altar of class actions of mere ambulance chasers. Meanwhile, blue collared workers, abandoned by the traditional left, have to toil carting around huge loads, and nobody gives a fuck!


We at Proletarian Democracy (external faction) say No to No Win No fee. We say, Win, Win, Win!

Any doubters of this cutting-edge class analysis need only look to the events of last august's riots for a vindication of the external faction of Proletarian Democracy's analysis. And if they don't like this article they should put up or shut up. Thousands of looters took to the stre et in an orgy of consumeristic violence, showing little regard for life, limb and property. Following these nouveau-lumpen were riding on their tailcoats, a new and even more disturbing phenomenon where people would deliberately run into lampposts and into windows, falling on banana skins and choking on stolen nuts, in an attempt to gain the money back from the civil court system which decades of neo-liberal leftism had made them think they deserved. Proof, if it could be needed, would be found in what several of these materialisticscum elements had to say on the matter.

"I can get injured as many times as I want, I can claim the money back on the insurance, its a laugh a minute!! "
"Don't quote me! Or I'll get Carter Fuck on you innit blud"
"Come near me and I'll sue you! Round ere we run tings da legalistic way!"

What have the other splits of Proletarian Democracy had to say about this, let alone the wider proletarian milieu?? Nothing, demonstrating the organisation's total lack of relevance. Such scenes could hardly be a better illustration of why we need the Workers' Bomb but due to the expensive lawsuits emanating from the middle-class left should the Bomb ever come to fruition, such a day looms ever further away, and the Workers' Bomb these failed leftists refer to could more accurately be called the middle-class people's bomb. It is difficult to see what could fill the vacuum of Proletarian Democracy's failure. 

In other words, we're doomed.


----------



## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

*Prolefuckingtarian Fucking Democracy supports those bastards at Class War's campaign for the fucking Hackney Mayor! *

To mark our fraternal relations with that fucking Class War, we have decided, like the cunts we are, to pepper this entire fucking communique with fucking swear words. You might think we're twats for doing this but it's actually a transitional fucking approach. By choosing to make many of the bleeding words in this sodding communique a fucking expletive, we are able to relate our views and programme better to the fucking class, unlike those pieces of shit who insist on politeness in political literature at all times. Not only did Class War's approach in reaching out to the working man fucking well impress us, goddamnit, but so did the actual contents of the fucking thing as well. More police officers going into your fucking schools! Well fuck me, we at Proletarian Democracy could definitely go along with that shit!


----------



## BigTom (May 21, 2012)

Inspired by this comment from Sass:


Sasaferrato said:


> I notice that the lovers of communism don't tend to live anywhere that practices it.


 
I was going to reply that my house is run on communist principles, and that I live there. This lead me to thinking about a new, updated doctrine for PD.
In response to 30 years of setbacks to the left in the UK, and taking into account the wisdom of Comrade Lletsa, we must update the Trotskyist notion of "Communism in one country".
No longer can we dream to attain such a state of affairs. Instead we must seek "Communism in one House". Perhaps once many of our comrades have established a communist economy within their own household, we can use the workers bomb to bring about global communism.

I really can't think the bullshit around this one up though. Fits with the idea of as many splits as possible / nuclear fission reaction in a way though.

(e2a, I wonder how this quote is going to appear in Sass' alerts.. will he find it here? will he be permanently confused by why I haven't replied in the original thread?)


----------



## rekil (May 22, 2012)




----------



## BigTom (May 22, 2012)

Part of me hopes she gets the joke. A bigger part of me hopes she doesn't and writes an expose of our "activities".


----------



## rekil (May 22, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Part of me hopes she gets the joke. A bigger part of me hopes she doesn't and writes an expose of our "activities".


 PD's twitter machine operator got a DM. Not clear whether she's read the thing or just seen the pic where she's holding the paper.


----------



## BigTom (May 22, 2012)

She might well have followed so that you can reply to her DM then.


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2012)

copliker said:


> PD's twitter machine operator got a DM. Not clear whether she's read the thing or just seen the pic where she's holding the paper.


 
What does this mean?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 22, 2012)

copliker said:


> View attachment 19455


----------



## BigTom (May 22, 2012)

chilango said:


> What does this mean?


 
DM = Direct Message, same as a private message.


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2012)

BigTom said:


> DM = Direct Message, same as a private message.


 
Yeah. I've seen it now...


----------



## co-op (May 23, 2012)

Comrades – I see from my twitter feed that wild accusations of the “death” of PD Comrade Gorbachev have been circulating in the mass media. It seems timely to remind all comrades that “death” is an artifact of bourgeois society (and indeed of the agrarian-based feudal economies that preceded it). Theoreticians will be interested to note that in the animist hunter-gatherer societies that preceded class society, death existed but merely as a form of transformation of consciousness, a process that is analogous to the transfomative power of proletarian communist society in creating a new humanity. But “death” - as in the cessation of awareness - is quite clearly a false consciousness, existing merely in a superstructural sphere produced by the pathologically conflict-ridden substructure of immature human economies, and has merely been a means for the ruling class to purvey its fantasy afterlife as a means of imposing class control. This is in direct contrast to the scientific Marxist analysis of this question that characterizes a proletarian comprehension of “death”. It is surely obvious to any critical thinker that in a classless society ‘immortality’ (I hesitate to use the term since its mere existence implies the existence of its antithesis, death, but comrades will forgive me if I lapse into the popular vernacular), I repeat “immortality” is the normal state of affairs in post-revolutionary society (except of course for enemies of the state, er _class_ - in post-revolutionary society the two will be inseparable, & comrades will pardon me for blurring the distinction), whose internalization of the belief of the existence of death means that they will remain subject to the reifying “power” of death, i.e. we can still put them up against the wall. Anyone who survives is clearly occupying a psychologically post-revolutionary consciousness and will be welcomed into the new era. As Marx clearly showed, capital is dead labour, and it follows that only living labour will exist in proletarian society.

Could comrades please reference the above understanding in all future communications with the proletariat or its organs, I am tired of having to make this point again and again, we have been over this many times. And please can this _not _be another pretext for starting the whole resurrection debate again, it has been quite clearly proven that even with a new proletarian clock, time is linear, in accordance with the scientific principles of Marxist-Leninist-Posadaist-Mainwaringist thought. I would remind comrades that former-cmde Jesus was expelled for persistently trying it on in this field.
Thank you.


----------



## rekil (May 23, 2012)

Taverymuch, that's up.

Re: Comrade Gorbachev And The Great ‘Death’ Lie.


----------



## co-op (May 23, 2012)

But you haven't used the small font size!! Surely every comrade is aware that all theoretical issues should be discussed in the smallest font size available?


----------



## rekil (May 23, 2012)

co-op said:


> But you haven't used the small font size!! Surely every comrade is aware that all theoretical issues should be discussed in the smallest font size available?


I don't think the template allows it but I'll suggest the inclusion of an instruction to stand at least 10 feet away from the screen.


----------



## co-op (May 23, 2012)

copliker said:


> I don't think the template allows it but I'll suggest the inclusion of an instruction to stand at least 10 feet away from the screen.


 
Or perhaps comrades could put their glasses on back to front?


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 23, 2012)

I am currently wearing my glasses back to front in proud solidarity with the readership.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 23, 2012)

co-op said:


> But you haven't used the small font size!! Surely every comrade is aware that all theoretical issues should be discussed in the smallest font size available?


 
Dear comrade I wouldn't pursue that line too hard or your lack of footnoting longer than the actual article might be questioned; standards are standards after all and they are there for a reason. (1)

Proletarian Democracy – Exchange Group
(02/02/51 AC)

(1) The need for comprehensive footnoting as a means of providing both:


a maximum of contextual information
and a demand of seriousness from the reader in the particular case of communist theory;
can be found at the Exchange Group Archive. The relevant subsection is Two steps forward with the Exchange Group in which the EG take to task comrades from the following PD factions:

Official Proletarian Democracy: Committee for the Proletarianisation of Time(OPD:CPT)
Advanced Proletarian Democracy for The Workers’ Bomb (APD – WB)
People’s Commission for the Bright Dawn of Proletarian Democracy (PCBDPD)
Proletarian Democracy (Posadist) (PD(P))
Proletarian Democracy (Provisional Fruitarian Faction) (PDPFF)
Marx Mao Mishima Kojima Path (MMMK)

for their unwillingness/inability to debate openly before the class through the means of extensive footnotes.


----------



## co-op (May 23, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Dear comrade I wouldn't pursue that line too hard or your lack of footnoting longer than the actual article might be questioned; standards are standards after all and they are there for a reason. (1)


 
Ooh, good point.1



1 When I say "good" I obviously refer to the ideological correctness and procedural appropriateness of the point, rather than implying any attribution of some sort of abstract moral "value" that can claim timeless "objectivity". In fact as we know only too well the bourgeois-religious suggestion that "good" could have any such status is merely the imposition of a grotesquely self-serving class interest upon a word otherwise innocent of any such implication. For further discussion of this point please email me.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2012)

Bear eating mutha fuckers.


----------



## barney_pig (May 23, 2012)

Fabulous news comrades! Our fostering network has announced that the Atomic Weapon establishment Aldermaston has chosen our fostering network as its charity1. opening an opportunity for revolutionary relations to be established between the heroic Atom bomb proletariat and Proletarian Democracy Youth!


1. this is true.


----------



## killer b (May 24, 2012)

elsewhere on the internet, i was reading about the overall movement in the USA in the 20s, and there was a pic at the bottom of a scanned article with some evidence of the past glories of the spartacists. thought some of you might be interested?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 24, 2012)

All Aldermen Are Bastards


ditto Yeomen, the Yeo polishing fucks


----------



## Random (May 25, 2012)

There's no link at all, is there, between the German Spartacists of 1918-19, who later became the German Communist Party and the Trotskyist group calling itself Spartacist?


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2012)

i've no idea. i'd never heard of either of them until this thread.


----------



## chilango (May 25, 2012)

Random said:


> There's no link at all, is there, between the German Spartacists of 1918-19, who later became the German Communist Party and the Trotskyist group calling itself Spartacist?


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 25, 2012)

Dave Spart would disagree.


----------



## Random (May 25, 2012)

Wikipedia says the choice of name was a trot "homage" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Communist_League_(Fourth_Internationalist)


----------



## barney_pig (Jun 4, 2012)

Betrayed!
 you just can't trust these arty types!



> Dear Cde Williams
> 
> Thank you for making me waste 2.2 hours of decimal time.
> 
> ...


----------



## rekil (Jun 4, 2012)

We can change!


----------



## chilango (Jun 4, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Betrayed!
> you just can't trust these arty types!


 
We're not worthy.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 4, 2012)

That's not actually a real response is it?

"Such cowards truly put the "alien" back in "alienation"


----------



## BigTom (Jun 4, 2012)

Proletarian Democracy - Putting the alien back in alienation


----------



## JimW (Jun 4, 2012)

I liked 'reckless spontaneism' as well. Well, everyone needs a hobby.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2012)

dotty:

Ken mcloed! fucking legend. not that his great body of work will spare him come the day


----------



## JHE (Jun 4, 2012)

Random said:


> There's no link at all, is there, between the German Spartacists of 1918-19, who later became the German Communist Party and the Trotskyist group calling itself Spartacist?


 
Once upon a time (almost 30 years ago), I was visited in my squalid little flat in Bristol by two members of the Spartacist League who had come to sell me a subscription to Workers' Hammer and (their American paper) Workers' Vanguard.  At one point in the conversation one of the Sparts became quite excited and declared, "We are the Bolshevik Party!"  "You are looking very good for your age," I replied, but neither Spart so much as smiled.

If they consider themselves the Bolsheviks, I see no reason for them not also to think themselves early German Communists.  And they did name themselves after the Germans, after all.

(To be fair to the Sparts, I must say that back in the 1980s they were the only people, as far as I am aware, who correctly foresaw the political direction of Afghanistan if the Communists were defeated.  For that reason at least, Workers' Hammer and Workers' Vanguard were worth reading.)


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2012)

have you heard the whole "workers hammer and workers anvil" story? the workers anvil was a split from the sparts and they for a while had a war of words with them. Their papers headline was "because the hammer will break before the anvil"


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 4, 2012)

copliker said:


> Beautiful. Good idea to have one grammatical error in all PD stuff as well.


 
there are no such thing as errors.

workers bomb = the bomb that is the workers collective
workers' bomb = the idealogical bomb that represents all workers
worker's bomb = the bomb each worker carries in their heart


----------



## Riklet (Jun 5, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> have you heard the whole "workers hammer and workers anvil" story?


 
Was that taken from this revolutionary communique, scribed in blood and signed with sweat?



> the workers and the bomb are one; the workers and the bomb are united!
> 
> a worker-bomber synthesis demonstrates a crux of clear revolutionary moment, one of brutal strength inseparably bound to the whirring sounds of industrial freedom. we must usher in this moment of reckoning -- the smashing of the class enemy through the final blow of the workers' hammer, ushered forward gloriously by the pure song of irradiation; the wrecking of the parasitic milieux upon the pure steel of the workers' anvil!


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Betrayed!
> you just can't trust these arty types!


Bad news. He just said on twitter that his cousin Sandra MacLeod is missing.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 6, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> dotty:
> 
> Ken mcloed! fucking legend. not that his great body of work will spare him come the day


 
I believe 39thstep used to live with him.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 6, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I believe 39thstep used to live with him.


 
I did indeed. Tariq Ali popped round a couple of times. Malcolm Owen from the Ruts lived about five doors away as well.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 6, 2012)

If _angel_'s bloke was around now he would say something like "Jimmy Saville farted in the same lift as me mam in 1983" now


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 6, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> If _angel_'s bloke was around now he would say something like "Jimmy Saville farted in the same lift as me mam in 1983" now


 
Its like the 3.am girls all over again


----------



## rekil (Jun 6, 2012)

Workers Girder will have its own 3am girls probably.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 6, 2012)

copliker said:


> Workers Girder will have its own 3am girls probably.


I think you will find that there will be 1.25DH Compañeras.


----------



## Random (Jun 7, 2012)

Fantastic reply there from Ken "Mushroom" McLeod. Has he put it on his blog?


----------



## JimW (Jun 7, 2012)

Random said:


> "Mushroom" McLeod


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 7, 2012)

Random said:


> Fantastic reply there from Ken "Mushroom" McLeod. Has he put it on his blog?


 
Not yet


----------



## rekil (Jun 11, 2012)

Random said:


> Fantastic reply there from Ken "Mushroom" McLeod. Has he put it on his blog?






			
				@ProletarianDem said:
			
		

> @amendlocke Very glad that Sandra is safe. We will overlook your slanderous response to our comradely approach.






			
				@amendlocke said:
			
		

> @ProletarianDem Well, you're welcome to publish it on your blog and refute it if you can!


 
Any takers?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 11, 2012)

Looks like a job for frogwoman that one!


----------



## rekil (Jun 13, 2012)

That Ken MacLeod stuff is now up on the blog.

Ken MacLeod, Rachel Khoo, Aprons & Betrayal.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 13, 2012)

Awesome


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 13, 2012)

copliker said:


> That Ken MacLeod stuff is now up on the blog.
> 
> Ken MacLeod, Rachel Khoo, Aprons & Betrayal.


 
that is truly fantastic


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jun 13, 2012)

copliker said:


> That Ken MacLeod stuff is now up on the blog.
> 
> Ken MacLeod, Rachel Khoo, Aprons & Betrayal.


 
Brilliant!


----------



## rekil (Jun 13, 2012)

It's not, but it'll have to do until someone less shit at this than me comes up with a proper semi-decent response to the scotchman.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jun 13, 2012)

Studied modesty.  Like Stalin's.


----------



## rekil (Jun 13, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Studied modesty. Like Stalin's.


I steal everything. Everything. I even nicked that line off Stalin and 'reloaded' it.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 4, 2013)

Does anyone know anything about this group?

http://anticapitalists.org/about-us

Their 'about us' doesn't reveal very much.
X has told Y to be careful of them, because they try to affiliate groups to them.

I think they did that Up the Anti thing a while back, so have they left behind a Trotskyist model?


----------



## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Does anyone know anything about this group?
> 
> http://anticapitalists.org/about-us
> 
> ...


 
They held a meeting in Birmingham on Saturday that I didn't go to but someone I know was planning to go so I can ask him what he thought of it. He's not always the most clued up guy and is looking for something new and not trotskyist/leninist after leaving socialist resistance though. I should see him later today. I looked at the website and was a bit  about it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Does anyone know anything about this group?
> 
> http://anticapitalists.org/about-us
> 
> ...


_Back to bolshevism - but this time, *no screw ups!*_


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

...and the follow up piece, but this time it'll look a bit like Syriza and be all open and pluralist bolshevism like what Lars said the bolsheviks were really like.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 4, 2013)

BigTom said:


> I looked at the website and was a bit  about it.


 
That's exactly my take on it  What's going on here, then?

There is this report of the Up the Anti Conference and the initiative itself from the CPGB which points out 1. it's studenty 2. the IBT don't like it 3. the CPGB don't like it. But that might be because they are stealing the CPGB's thunder in calling for open discussion and an end to Leninist practices:

http://cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/925/the-passing-of-a-liquidationist-scheme

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/941/anti-capitalist-initiativeup-the-swanny


butchersapron, the first post in this thread quotes from Simon Hardy part of this AntiCapitalist Initiative thing disclaims Leninism




> We came to the conclusion that a method of organising exclusively focused on building specifically Leninist-Trotskyist groups prevents the socialist left from creating the kind of broad anticapitalist organisations, which can present a credible alternative to the mainstream parties.
> 
> The post 1991 world presents new challenges to the left and the workers’ movement. Marxism is no longer the natural ‘go-to politics’ of radical activists coming into the movement today. The dramatic shift to the right by social democracy and the business unionism of the trade union movement all took their toll on the capacity of the workers to fight. Now the task of regenerating a movement that can overthrow capitalism is serious one, but in a sense the left has barely begun this task.
> 
> ...


----------



## mk12 (Feb 4, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Does anyone know anything about this group?
> 
> http://anticapitalists.org/about-us
> 
> ...


 
How did they come up with that name?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2013)

mk12 said:


> How did they come up with that name?


using their initiative


----------



## sihhi (Feb 4, 2013)

mk12 said:


> How did they come up with that name?


 
Up the Anti or AntiCapitalist Initiative? My guesses: ACI because they don't want to be a party but they support anticapitalism, Up the Anti because it's a clever pun.

The SYRIZA stuff is depressing though.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

sihhi said:


> butchersapron, the first post in this thread quotes from Simon Hardy part of this AntiCapitalist Initiative thing disclaims Leninism


He's only rejecting_ the wrong type_ of democratic centralism there mate, the good model of DC, the one he thinks the bolsheviks really stood for and outlines in those two articles is still the way to go for him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He's only rejecting_ the wrong type_ of democratic centralism there mate, the good model of DC, the one he thinks the bolsheviks really stood for and outlines in those two articles is still the way to go for him.


on this thread and on the swappie comrade delta thread the wrong types of dc seem to have been in full effect


----------



## sihhi (Feb 4, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The IBT, if I recall correctly, put forward the slogan "Colonialists: Live Like Pigs - Die Like Pigs" after the 1983 Beirut barracks bombs, which killed 299 US and French soldiers as well as some civilians.


 
Lefty trainspotterism makes me point out that this was the US Spartacists over Zaire '78.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

The Sparts are the Westboro Baptist Church of trotskyism.


----------



## mk12 (Feb 4, 2013)

Surprised they didn't picket Paul Foot's funeral.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)




----------



## mk12 (Feb 4, 2013)

That's a vote winner.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

The one on the left, anyone?:

_[red?]...against green_
_Class against class_


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

mk12 said:


> That's a vote winner.


 
Labour could stand on that manifesto in the next election against the tories and they would probably win.


----------



## mk12 (Feb 4, 2013)

Ireland? Troops Out Now


----------



## sihhi (Feb 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


>





butchersapron said:


> The one on the left, anyone?:
> 
> _[red?]...against green_
> _Class against class_


 
(Northern) Ireland: Imperialist Peace A Lie! British Troops Out Now! Not Orange Against Green! Class Against Class! - Spartacist


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

Cheers, btw earlier  today i noticed articul8 talking to the author of those two _we need proper bolshevism like syriza_ pieces above  trying to persuade him that the real problem facing the left is not years of alienation from the class they are supposed to represent, spring from, receive support from etc which are partially due to the top-down organisational forms they choose to adopt, but..wait for it..._electoral reform._


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Cheers, btw earlier today i noticed articul8 talking to the author of those two _we need proper bolshevism like syriza_ pieces above trying to persuade him that the real problem facing the left is not years of alienation from the class they are supposed to represent, spring from, receive support from etc which are partially due to the top-down organisational forms they choose to adopt, but..wait for it..._electoral reform._


I said no such thing, I said that the UK FPTP system was amongst the barriers to a new left formation breaking through.  It is.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

Is Syriza a leninist party though? I didn't think it was.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

articul8 said:


> I said no such thing, I said that the UK FPTP system was amongst the barriers to a new left formation breaking through. It is.


Yeah, that really doesn't sound anything at all like you suggesting electoral reform is a key issue. However could i have got that impression.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Is Syriza a leninist party though? I didn't think it was.


They're a coalition with leninist parties involved. People like Hardy are now arguing that this is what Leninism really was all along it wasn't the centralised non-plural party that everyone argued that it was for the last 94 years.


----------



## JimW (Feb 4, 2013)

So did Richard III lead a deformed monarchical state?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They're a coalition with leninist parties involved. People like Hardy are now arguing that this is what Leninism really was all along it wasn't the centralised non-plural party that everyone argued that it was for the last 94 years.


 
But the leninist parties are still leninist tho?


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, that really doesn't sound anything at all like you suggesting electoral reform is a key issue. However could i have got that impression.


it is a key issue - which isn't to say that a PR electoral system is all that it takes


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

articul8 said:


> it is a key issue - which isn't to say that a PR electoral system is all that it takes


Whoever suggested that it is? You're the one who comes closest to such idiocy.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> But the leninist parties are still leninist tho?


That would depend on what you mean by leninist!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 4, 2013)

Isn't the CWI in Greece a member of Syriza? Apparently they've got around 600 members.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Isn't the CWI in Greece a member of Syriza? Apparently they've got around 600 members.


 
not sure, they were i think, i thought they left a few years ago.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Whoever suggested that it is? You're the one who comes closest to such idiocy.


where I have ever said anything close?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

articul8 said:


> where I have ever said anything close?


What did i say? I said of the two of us you have come _closest_ to arguing that as you believe that PR is a step forwards whereas i have no such illusions.

And please don't reply by outlining your reasons for why you consider it a step forward.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2013)

it is a step forwards - it's just not a guarantee of anything further


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

I don't care.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2013)

articul8 said:


> I said no such thing, I said that the UK FPTP system was amongst the barriers to a new left formation breaking through. It is.


 
If you're criticising FPTP, then you're as of necessity supporting and proferring electoral reform as a solution, you gom.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2013)

sihhi said:


> (Northern) Ireland: Imperialist Peace A Lie! British Troops Out Now! Not Orange Against Green! Class Against Class! - Spartacist


 
Whenever I see mention of a deformed workers' state, I always think of the Morlocks.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2013)

I just heard about a french left-communist group that produced a leaflet at a strike that workers shouldn't oppose layoffs because they couldn't oppose them while also opposing capitalism and wage labour


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

I think you need to have seen the leaflet to be able to post that. I've seen a lot of trot and leninists groups/members mistake left-communist positions for all sorts of things. I've never heard of any of them take any such position. There is the famous LIP occupation of the early 70s where criticisms of the necessary self-exploitation involved were turned around and used to attack the left-communist via just such claims though.


----------



## articul8 (Feb 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you're criticising FPTP, then you're as of necessity supporting and proferring electoral reform as a solution, you gom.


FFS - is it simpleton's Monday or something?  Of course I'm supporting electoral reform.  I'm saying that is in all likelihood necessary but not *sufficient* for a new left formation to breakthrough at an electoral level in the UK.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2013)

Hey Simon, do you want to come and write something for us at the new Syriza HQ? *Licks lips*


----------



## framed (Feb 4, 2013)

copliker said:


> That Ken MacLeod stuff is now up on the blog.
> 
> Ken MacLeod, Rachel Khoo, Aprons & Betrayal.


 


Is Ken's reply a tongue-in-cheek one, or is he really that gullible?


----------



## belboid (Feb 4, 2013)

framed said:


> Is Ken's reply a tongue-in-cheek one, or is he really that gullible?


No one could be _that _gullible, surely?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 4, 2013)

belboid said:


> No one could be _that _gullible, surely?


 
This was from ages ago and he was obviously just joining in the fun.


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## Delroy Booth (Feb 4, 2013)

The thing about Proletarian Democracy is that it's a pisstake but done with a lot of sincerity and respect, not malice. I also think being able to take the piss out of yourself is one of the most important things in life, and if the left can learn to do it a bit better we'd be heading in the right direction.


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## rekil (Feb 4, 2013)

Twitter mailbag question.


> Are there any science fiction novels based on a Posadist future? Serious question. Would @ProletarianDem know the answer?


I don't know. Are there?


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## Delroy Booth (Feb 4, 2013)

copliker said:


> Twitter mailbag question.
> 
> I don't know. Are there?


 
Yeah I'm gonna write one. Seriously. Post-apocalyptic it's gonna be. Fallout New Workers Party (Posadist-Leninist). It's gonna have some Luddites in it too.


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## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2013)

copliker said:


> Twitter mailbag question.
> 
> I don't know. Are there?


 
The nearest one I can think of is Arthur Clarke's Childhood's End. In which the aliens aren't actually socialists or anything.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 4, 2013)

copliker said:


> Twitter mailbag question.
> 
> I don't know. Are there?


 
The closest actually is Ken MacLeod's Engines of Light trilogy, which is brilliant and has immortal anarchists fermenting worker's revolutions alongside greys, yetis, and cavemen (and conducting underhand deals with Fabians) against an order dominated by the Roman Empire (who travel between worlds by hitching rides with giant squid navigated ships) in a far flung star system


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## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


>


 


mk12 said:


> That's a vote winner.


 
Got my postal vote anyway.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 4, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> The thing about Proletarian Democracy is that it's a pisstake


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


>


 
This could be posted with a PD logo in place of spartacist and everyone would think it was made up. Spartacists are fucking weird. These are the same people that think there should be no age of consent and peadophilia is fine, it's just bourgeouis morality that stops it isn't it?


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 28, 2013)

Permanent Revolution call it a day. http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/3434


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## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Permanent Revolution call it a day. http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/3434


not so permanent then


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 28, 2013)

What are the Marxist Networks?


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 28, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> not so permanent then


 
Can we not have a moment's seriousness to mourn this loss to the working-class movement, comrade?

your glib attempt at "humour" whilst we reel from this body-blow to the international proletarian struggle is both ill-judged and too soon.

RIP Permanent Revolution.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2013)

someone do an obit for the girder


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## chilango (Mar 28, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Permanent Revolution call it a day. http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/3434


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## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Can we not have a moment's seriousness to mourn this loss to the working-class movement, comrade?
> 
> your glib attempt at "humour" whilst we reel from this body-blow to the international proletarian struggle is both ill-judged and too soon.
> 
> RIP Permanent Revolution.


perhaps after easter they will rise, like the nazarene.


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## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2013)

> we recognise the need for the left to organise itself in radically different ways. *As a result we have now decided to cease publication of our journal and website*.


 
Radical


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## mk12 (Mar 28, 2013)

Where will we now get correct forecasts for the world economy? I hope Bill J finds another outlet for his theories and predictions!


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## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2013)

mk12 said:


> Where will we now get correct forecasts for the world economy? I hope Bill J finds another outlet for his theories and predictions!


we'll ask jazzz as usual


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## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2013)

this is worse than when_ Revolutionary Perspectives _went from a4 down to A5


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## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this is worse than when_ Revolutionary Perspectives _went from a4 down to A5


and worse than when mayday went from a4 to a5 too


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## treelover (Mar 28, 2013)

"Instead we will direct our efforts and resources to building those initiatives, regionally, locally and nationally, that we believe offer a way forward that is more effective than the maintenance of ourselves as a distinct group – for example, the Anti-Capitalist Initiative"

I thought the ACI was WP?

anyway, the sects seem to be incurring the domino effect, 1989 in miniature...


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and worse than when mayday went from a4 to a5 too


 
not quite as bad as when mayday went from A5 to A4 though


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2013)

treelover said:


> "
> I thought the ACI was WP?


 
No it was PR (at least all the PR people in Lewisham have been going on about ACI for ages)


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## JimW (Mar 28, 2013)

We should rename the next edition of the Girder "Temporary Kerfuffle" as a mark of respect to the fallen.


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## belboid (Mar 28, 2013)

love detective said:


> No it was PR (at least all the PR people in Lewisham have been going on about ACI for ages)


it was (some of) pr and the other (nameless) split from WP, and a couple of others.


does anyone want 20 copies of pr 12-18 for their archives, btw?


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2013)

belboid said:


> does anyone want 20 copies of pr 12-18 for their archives, btw?


 
nah you're alright


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## J Ed (Mar 28, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah I'm gonna write one. Seriously. Post-apocalyptic it's gonna be. Fallout New Workers Party (Posadist-Leninist). It's gonna have some Luddites in it too.


 
That would make a brilliant Fallout 3 mod

The game already has PLA graphics in it!


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2013)

Stuart King Presente!
Bill Jefferies Presente!
Cockney Rebel Presente!


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 28, 2013)

What a way to go too. They aren't even dissolving in favour of something they think will be better. They are just going their own ways, to do whatever. I'm a little disappointed that they didn't include one last denial of the existence of a world economic crisis though.

Also, there's no attempt to assess their ideas, their record, their impact, or what the point of it all was.


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## chilango (Mar 28, 2013)

The WRP/Workers' Press's dissolution was one of my favourites. Their conversion into full on bongo banging hippies in Reclaim the Future was a hell of a sight on the Liverpool Dockers' picket line.


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## TremulousTetra (Mar 28, 2013)

I bet the urban comrades have never had bigger smiles on their faces  enjoy.

You should resurrect that thread chilango life after the SWP.  Perhaps a new one, life after Trotskyism.  Seriously.


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## sihhi (Apr 29, 2013)

This is hot off the press:

Workers Power (the original) want some kind of 26 March re-run:



> Unite the rival national anticuts campaigns at the People’s Assembly – drawing in
> the many local anticuts committees and campaigns. Together we must formulate a
> national plan of action. We support the call for a huge demonstration of February 15
> 2003 proportions to launch mass action.


 
http://leftunity.org/building-left-unity-where-to-begin/

oh ... and a party to form and lead the working-class - that too


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## treelover (Apr 30, 2013)

sihhi said:


> This is hot off the press:
> 
> Workers Power (the original) want some kind of 26 March re-run:
> 
> ...


 
they are being torn to shreds in the comments, 19th C Left indeed..


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## SpineyNorman (May 1, 2013)

I hope you finished on the laurie penny thread before you started on this one muscovyduck


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## muscovyduck (May 1, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I hope you finished on the laurie penny thread before you started on this one muscovyduck


CHECK YOUR THREAD PRIVILEGE


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## SpineyNorman (May 1, 2013)

muscovyduck said:


> CHECK YOUR THREAD PRIVILEGE


 
Sounds like the privilege those who wear trendy clobber might enjoy. I think it safe to say that I'm at the oppressed end of that particular spoke on the wheel of oppression. Laurie won't write about it cos her and her friends are all fashionistas and that.


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## Nigel Irritable (May 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> they are being torn to shreds in the comments, 19th C Left indeed..


 
Only thing worse than the dreadful Workers Power piece is the smug comments.


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## sihhi (May 15, 2013)

Bit of a let down this one on how to have the socialist future if we want it:

http://www.workerspower.co.uk/2013/05/the-futures-ours-if-we-want-it/

Likes Left Unity A LOT, but wants it to TALK ABOUT YOUNG people:




> The surge of support for Left Unity – the appeal for a new working class party to fight the cuts – has the potential to make a real difference for millions looking for a party that finally puts their interests first.
> 
> Everyone’s talking about uniting the left – uniting revolutionary groups, uniting independent activists, uniting disillusioned Labour party members. This is a welcome step forward.
> 
> But no one’s talking about young people.


 



Wants a revolutionary party cell in every school, leading the movement.



> ... not to make profit for the millionaires – this is the struggle for socialism. We can bring our own methods, which take the best of the old and new; we can develop our own organisations which defend our right to think through politics for ourselves, develop our own tactics and strategies but fighting every step of the way with our older brothers and sisters and our parents in the working class.
> 
> We can have solidarity without subordination. We can build a movement based in the schools and colleges, in the workplaces and amongst the unemployed young families across the world.
> 
> ...


 
So is the revolutionary party to remain within Left Unity or not?


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## The39thStep (May 16, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Only thing worse than the dreadful Workers Power piece is the smug comments.


 
This is a belter



> I spoke at a public meeting on a council estate with about 100 w class people present – I said I am from a small democratic w class socialist party and how can we help? The other speaker was from I think Workers Power and said exactly the same as the beginning of this post. At the end of the meeting he was chaired on the residents shoulders out of the room and I was shocked! It was only on leaving the buiding that I noticed him climbing out of the nearby skip! (This is a joke). There has never been a socialist society from Trotsky to Lenin to mass murderer Stalin we had top down ‘socialism’ what Rosa Luxemburg I think called a ‘bourgeois dictatorship of the proletariate’ – an elite central committee, secret police etc. perhaps what LU needs to be is grassroots-led, bottom up, democratic, peaceful,socialist and we should stand by working people locally, nationally and internationally. The pure m class SWP and parties like the SP (uncritical Trotskyist sects) and possibly WP seem to believe in the banking concept of political education – all they need to do is deposit their ideas and programme into the heads of the w class then their cadres and elite central committee will lead us all to the promised land! Yet progressive education follows the ideas of Paulo Freire and we engage with people, draw from them and their reality and experiences and work things out TOGETHER. My 3 influences are Paulo Freire, the music of John Lennon and Paul Frolich’s biography of Rosa Luxemburg. Perhaps people need to bring ideas to LU but as someone said perhaps we also need to learn. There is hope!


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## rekil (May 16, 2013)

Preview of tonight's Eurovision nonsense is up. Here.

Improvements and corrections are welcome.


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## rekil (Dec 12, 2013)

Back in biz. Spotted on Paul Mason's C4 report.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 13, 2013)

And according to Weekly Worker the ACI have now folded into the ISN mainly, just as their factional problems seem to be growing.


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## belboid (Oct 31, 2015)

According to a man on the internet, the mighty Workers Power, brave defenders of the Workers Bomb, and Ukrainian Stalinism, have dissolved.

Truly, the class is now all at sea, without even a raft.


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## J Ed (Oct 31, 2015)

The workers are powerless


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## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2015)

_Once more unto the labour party dear comrades._


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## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2015)

yeah I was wondering if they'd dissolved into lab. Corbyns victory now assured.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> _Once more unto the labour party dear comrades._



_Workers of the world who want to shop at John Lewis, go on holiday and get a new extension unite!_


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## imposs1904 (Oct 31, 2015)

belboid said:


> According to a man on the internet, the mighty Workers Power, brave defenders of the Workers Bomb, and Ukrainian Stalinism, have dissolved.
> 
> Truly, the class is now all at sea, without even a raft.



will they be auctioning off the british franchise of the fifth international on ebay? i hope at least they will be donating their gestetner to the labour party/


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## Flavour (Nov 1, 2015)

Well, given that the average age of the active members of a significant proportion of UK far-left groups is only going in one direction (steadily up), this is not all that surprising.


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## charlie mowbray (Nov 6, 2015)

This is what Workers Power now are:
http://www.redflagonline.org


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> The RCG whose paper is Fight Racism Fight Imperialism will be yer lot going on about Cuba.





krink said:


> that's them. seem canny enough people but a bit barking.





DaveCinzano said:


> Not so much fruitcakes as Yaffe cakes.



I'm resurrecting this as Compañera Helen has been all over the rolling news studios recently


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