# Mugged in Lambeth



## Bob (Sep 16, 2003)

This could be the real dark side of 'a Brixton moment' - a thread to share your mugged moments in Brixton.

So I'll start. Was mugged about 100 feet from my flats last night by a gang of 7 kids - all about 12-15 - didn't really feel seriously worried when they walked up to me on the street since they were all so short and scrawny (I'm 6ft). Big mistake. When I too late realised it was time to scarper they knocked me to the ground / jumped on me and hit me with a metal pole. Luckily since it was 9pm various people from the flats next to mine heard and came out on their balconies - so the kids scarpered - leaving me with only a few bruises to show.

However victory is mine - from having lived in London my whole life I've had two mugging attempts - neither of which got anything off me. The irony is that both times I was carrying nothing of any substantial value in the bag they tried to pull off me.

Some other time I'll write up my carjacking and being robbed at knife point experiences in Zimbabwe...


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## editor (Sep 16, 2003)

Sorry to hear about your mugging: those kids are fucking scumbags.

I hope you've notified the police - it's important that they hear about these assaults.

And - for the benefit of other Lambeth residents - could you tell us a little more about the group of kids - where they white/back/mixed, on bikes/foot? 

Any noticeable things about them to look out for?


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## Bob (Sep 16, 2003)

Well it's on Vauxhall Gardens estate - just north of Kennington lane opposite Vauxhall primary school for anyone who lives round there. Kids - all black on foot - but didn't really get much of a look at any of them apart from the first one who attacked me - I'm not really good at describing faces but would know the guy if I saw him. A couple of kids who wandered up 30 seconds or so later recognised them so I guess they're fairly local - unfortunately these kids wandered off - not wanting to be involved.

Kennington police station ran out of squad cars last night apparently - so the police popped round at 8am as I was having breakfast. So I'm off there this afternoon to make a statement.


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## fanta (Sep 16, 2003)

Sorry to hear about that Bob. They are indeed pathetic cowardly scumbags. That is why they do this in gangs of 7. Let us hope the police catch up with them.


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## Baub (Sep 16, 2003)

A friend from work had her bagged snatched as she stepped off the bus in Brixton this morning - this morning!  I'm fairly alert on the way home in the evening or later at night (even after a few) but am still warming up towards full consciousness on my way in to work, bumping into people, apologising to lamposts etc.  

Is morning the new evening for muggers?  Is there a yawning gap in the mugging market?

Very droll I know but leading on to the current radio ad:  "If you use your mobile phone outside a tube station, you're asking for it to be nicked"  I'm a bit disturbed about that ad - simply wanting to make a phone call,  naivety, forgetfulness, the desire not to be ruled by the threats of others is NOT "asking for it to be nicked".

Of course you need to be alert and aware wherever you go but isn't saying you're asking for it just one step away from saying it's your fault if it happens...?


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## IntoStella (Sep 16, 2003)

I'm very sorry to hear that, Bob. Being mugged is absolutely shitty.  Hasn't happened to me in Brixton (touch wood x 1000)  but three times in West Norwood --  twice within four weeks. Never been mugged by a gang of kids (touch wood x 2000)  --  there is something especially horrible about that.  One one hand they're little ratfuckers  but on the other they'll probably have absolutely shitty lives.


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## newbie (Sep 16, 2003)

Only once ever, some years back now.  Walking along a dark street eating a bag of chips, three guys, two knives.  I offered them a chip then gave them my cards and cash....seemed only polite, somehow 

That experience made me much, much more cautious about walking dark streets, and I'm probably still more nervous about being out and about at night than ever I used to be.


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## Calva dosser (Sep 16, 2003)

: "If you use your mobile phone outside a tube station, you're asking to be mugged" I'm a bit disturbed about that ad - 

Actually, this is the purpose of The Albert- When you've been on the tube from Civilisation (North of the River) a lot of unnecessarilly fearful northern wimps will text you to see if you are still alive in The Brick. You only get these messages as you turn the corner into Electric Avenue or CHL, thus necessitating a quick Stella to draft replies etc.


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## IntoStella (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Baub _
> *Of course you need to be alert and aware wherever you go but isn't saying you're asking for it just one step away from saying it's your fault if it happens...?     *


  You're right. It's a well-established game -- blame the victim: "You shouldn't have been out late; you shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt; you shouldn't have been carrying a handbag; you shouldn't have been wearing jewellery; you shouldn't have been drinking; you shouldn't have been using your mobile; blah blah blah."  Ideally we should have the freedom not to be victims of crime. No, not even ideally. It's a basic human right.


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## secretsquirrel (Sep 16, 2003)

some little sods tried to nick my mobile when i was on the top deck of the bus once - what they didn't reckon on was iainmc sitting next to me who calmly just grabbed the hand of the kid who grabbed my phone and squeezed it very hard all the while saying 'oh sorry mate you seem to have made a mistake and tried to take my girlfriends phone' 

after much swearing about 'my fucking fingers' (we reckon at least one could have been broken) several of 'em subsided to the back of the bus and tried to big themselves up with much teeth kissing and muttered threats

unfortunately they all had to get off long before us and looked a bit sheepish as they went down the stairs, the one still forlornly muttering about how much his finger hurt

awww diddums


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## CK1977 (Sep 16, 2003)

Sorry to hear about this Bob.  Unfortunately there seems to be a growing trend with groups of young teenagers mugging.  I was having a chat with a friend about this the other day and the growing trend as an example is, the kids from peckham mug people in brixton and the kids from brixton mug people in peckham etc etc.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 16, 2003)

*bad news Bob*

I've nearly been mugged 3 times, it's not pleasant, but at least you weren't stabbed 7 times on a bus!


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## IntoStella (Sep 16, 2003)

You were stabbed 7 times on a bus??? Oh my god! That's terrible.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 16, 2003)

*Nooooooooooo*

not me!  Did you not hear/read about it.

Happened yesterday I think or maybe the weekend.  Girl got stabbed on bus in front of passengers.

Apparently mugger had snatched her bag at bus stop top of Brixton Road (Kennington Park end). She ran after him, got her bag back, got on bus, he followed her and then stabbed her.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by IntoStella _
> *You're right. It's a well-established game -- blame the victim: "You shouldn't have been out late; you shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt; you shouldn't have been carrying a handbag; you shouldn't have been wearing jewellery; you shouldn't have been drinking; you shouldn't have been using your mobile; blah blah blah."  Ideally we should have the freedom not to be victims of crime. No, not even ideally. It's a basic human right. *



I know this is deliicate territory, IS, and I really do agree with you and Baub about it, but I wonder what kind of precautionary/take good care advice *would* be acceptable, without it being assumed that the advice is getting close to victim-blaming???
<genuinely   >

I wonder whether I'm living on borrowed luck/time here in Walworth -- twelve years here and no incidents yet


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 16, 2003)

*From SLP*

A 36-year-old man was arrested by police after a young mother was stabbed up to seven times by a mugger who attacked her in broad daylight on a crowded commuter bus.

The 22-year-old woman was knifed by a man after she chased him through the streets in a bid to recover the handbag he had snatched from her moments earlier.

After she and a friend had grappled with the man, retrieving the bag, the young woman was followed on to the bus in Kennington, south London by her attacker. Then, in front of her five-month-old baby, the man stabbed the woman repeatedly before running off.

Police detained the suspect at about 10.10pm. He is currently being held at a central London police station.

The woman, who was taken to an unnamed hospital, is said to be in a stable condition. Her baby, who was uninjured, is being cared for by other members of their family.

Scotland Yard said: "The victim was getting on the number 3 bus with a friend and her five-month-old baby, who was in a pram, when a black man approached her.

"The man stole the victim's bag from her shoulder and got off the bus. The man was pursued by the victim and her friend, who managed to get the victim's bag back.

"Once in possession of her bag, the victim got back on to the bus. The suspect followed her on to the bus and proceeded to stab her about six or seven times."

The incident happened at about 10.45am on Monday.
before using this site.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx _
> *not me!  Did you not hear/read about it*


.

<edited -- just read the SLP story that minnie posted>


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 16, 2003)

*a few*

words in The Standard about it and I also clocked in on Ceefax.

This, after all that talk about better security on the worst bus routes

Fair enough, they did catch the bastard, whether that was through bus cameras or the public, who knows


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## IntoStella (Sep 16, 2003)

Jesus, there are some bad, mad fuckers around -- I was shocked also by  that news story about the little girl being executed in Harlesden because she witnessed her father's murder.    Is it crack that makes people do such terrible things?


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## davey (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by IntoStella _
> *Jesus, there are some bad, mad fuckers around -- I was shocked also by  that news story about the little girl being executed in Harlesden because she witnessed her father's murder.    Is it crack that makes people do such terrible things? *



I think, sadly, that money plays a part too - IF the Harlseden murders were for territory then the stakes are pretty high.

I also get the feeling that there is a weird notion of "respect" going on in a lot of the violence on our streets with largely young men not being able to back down (even if a young mother takes her bag back!!!).


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## Anna Key (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by davey _
> *I also get the feeling that there is a weird notion of "respect" going on in a lot of the violence on our streets with largely young men not being able to back down (even if a young mother takes her bag back!!!). *


I don't like comparing people to animals but doesn't this also happen in packs of dogs, prides of lions and troups of chimps? So young men doing it on the streets of London are not alone in the natural world.

There's a strict hierarchy in a dog pack which effects all sorts of things but particularly food and reproduction. If you lose 'respect' you drop down the hierarchy and suffer as a consequence. You have less food and are less likely to be permitted to pass on your genes.

The sort of person who behaves as this man is not exactly brimming with civilized values so perhaps it's not unreasonable to compare him and his friends to a dog pack.

And dogs sometimes need to be muzzled. Or locked in a kennel.

But having said that maybe he's care in the community and failed to take his pills.


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## isvicthere? (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Calva dosser _
> *: "If you use your mobile phone outside a tube station, you're asking to be mugged" I'm a bit disturbed about that ad -
> 
> Actually, this is the purpose of The Albert- When you've been on the tube from Civilisation (North of the River) a lot of unnecessarilly fearful northern wimps will text you to see if you are still alive in The Brick. You only get these messages as you turn the corner into Electric Avenue or CHL, thus necessitating a quick Stella to draft replies etc. *



Stratford, "civilisation"?! You are seriously having a bubble bath! Although many overseas tourists often probably do mistake the cavernous concrete shopping centre for Stratford-on-Avon and go trundling down Carpenters Road in search of mementoes of the Bard.


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## Anna Key (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by isvicthere? _
> *You are seriously having a bubble bath! *


I've a neighbour, who falls into the 'nice but dim' category, who came to Brixton years ago because he thought it was Brixham and wanted to live by the sea.

But he liked it and stayed.

Brixham


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## Donna Ferentes (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anna Key _
> *I've a neighbour, who falls into the 'nice but dim' category, who came to Brixton years ago because he thought it was Brixham and wanted to live by the sea.*


_Renault: What in heaven's name brought you to Casablanca? 
Rick: My health. I came to Casablanca for the waters. 
Renault: The waters? What waters? We're in the desert. 
Rick: I was misinformed._


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## hatboy (Sep 17, 2003)

"I don't like comparing people to animals but doesn't this also happen in packs of dogs, prides of lions and troups of chimps? So young men doing it on the streets of London are not alone in the natural world."

Well we're all animals, but this sort of thinking isn't seeing people as individuals. It's on the way to "them and us" which I personally can't stand.

As for this mugging comparison thread.  I've had afew nasty experiences from time to time round here. But only when I've been so out of it I didn't know wtf was going on and far out-weighed by the good people I talk to, and who help me if I'm in trouble on the streets of Brixton.

I'm not really interested in re-living long-past near-death experiences here, er, again...

But would love to hear more of yours!


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## editor (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *Well we're all animals, but this sort of thinking isn't seeing people as individuals.
> *


 And rightly so: gangs of kids can and will act quite differently to how they would as individuals.

When I see a gang of yout' out on the streets of Brixton past midnight pushing past people and making a nuisance of myself I don't ponder over the multifaceted personalities contained therein.

And when I see a gang of football hoolies heading my way I don't start contemplating the nuances of their individual personalities - I just see an ugly mob coming my way and get out of the way. Fast.

People in gangs act differently, and it's quite right not to judge them as individuals when they're in 'gang mode'.

Do you think any of these scumbag kids would have had the bottle or the encouragement to mug someone on their own?

I doubt it.


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## hatboy (Sep 17, 2003)

Fair point Mike. Yeah I know gang mentality is different. But I'm going to leave others to decide whether they want to call muggers chimps or lions.

An animal that was aggressive and at the same time cowardly would fit the mugging bill better if you're going to compare people to animals.


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## hatboy (Sep 17, 2003)

"When I see a gang of yout' out on the streets of Brixton past midnight pushing past people and making a nuisance of themselves I don't ponder over the multifaceted personalities contained therein."

Really? Not atall. I do sometimes.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *
> Really? Not at all. I do sometimes. *


 Not when I'm walking down a deserted Coldharbour Lane and the aforementioned bike-totin' yout are headed in my general direction.

Of course, if I'm gazing down from the comfort and safety of my flat, I may spend an idle moment pondering about why pavements are so popular with these chood-tastic midnight cyclists and how they manage to see or hear each other when their hoods are pulled down so far. 

But mostly my short, curtain twitching activities are distracted by the hollow-faced junkies who have now taken up residence directly below me, at the back of the Texaco petrol station.

There's something of a ghoulish attraction in watching their horrible, filthy antics.

Unless the footbal is on, of course.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *
> An animal that was aggressive and at the same time cowardly would fit the mugging bill better if you're going to compare people to animals. *


 A pack of hyenas perhaps?


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## chazegee (Sep 17, 2003)

> After she and a friend had grappled with the man, retrieving the bag, the young woman was followed on to the bus in Kennington, south London by her attacker. Then, in front of her five-month-old baby, the man stabbed the woman repeatedly before running off.



And Ive just moved from Brixton to Kennington to escape the radgeness


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## Bob (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chazegee _
> *And Ive just moved from Brixton to Kennington to escape the radgeness *



Not sure if you noticed but my attack happened in Kennington too! There's rough and smooth bits of Kennington. Basically west of Kenningon road = tough, east = nice. On the whole.

BTW many thanks to everyone who sent me best wishes. Now I have a very hard looking black eye.

One more thing - as I was lying on the ground one of the kids pulled out a metal pole. As it came out I initially thought it was a knife and was thinking 'oh fuck I'm about to be stabbed' followed by 'thank fuck for that I'm about to be hit with a metal pole'.  Which is funny.


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## chazegee (Sep 17, 2003)

> As it came out I initially thought it was a knife and was thinking 'oh fuck I'm about to be stabbed' followed by 'thank fuck for that I'm about to be hit with a metal pole'. Which is funny.




London  

Is Walworth road c. Amelia street posh?


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## pooka (Sep 17, 2003)

Bob,

from your fairly relaxed intro to the thread, I hadn't picked up this was recent - more a "lets reminisce" type jobby. 

I'm sorry to hear it and hope you're getting over it.

Been mugged once myself - about ten years ago. Crossing an unlit area of grass and approached from behind by four or five late-teen lads, the biggest of whom pinned my arms to my side whilst one of his mates dipped my pockets. Other than kick at shins, there's not a lot you can do.

The irony was, I'd been to the bank that day and drawn out a wadge of money. I'd been out for a drink and had been last to the bar to get a round in so I had about £90 in one one pocket and the change from a tenner in the other. Seizing the change first they did a runner.

I must confess that what I was left with was anger more than anything - that some tossers thought such behaviour vaguely acceptable, and I speak as someone who grew up in a poor area where that sort of thing would be well out of order.

Main thing is to devise a strategy to better secure your valuables and to keep your wits about you, and then get on with it. Chances of it happening again are small.


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## hendo (Sep 18, 2003)

Disturbed and unhappy to hear about what has happened to you Bob.
I wondered what the muggings rate was in Lambeth, and these figures seem to offer an answer, but I wonder how accurate.

http://www.met.police.uk/crimestatistics/tables/August2003.htm


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 18, 2003)

Those figures are hard to interpret really...it would include really nasty stuff like Bobs mugging as well as 14 year olds taking dinner money off 10 years olds (which is still nasty)....


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## Mr Retro (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *"When I see a gang of yout' out on the streets of Brixton past midnight pushing past people and making a nuisance of themselves I don't ponder over the multifaceted personalities contained therein."
> 
> Really? Not atall. I do sometimes.
> ...



I kind of envy you for that HB. 

When a group of teenagers approach me I'm picking out who I reckon is the leader and mouth of the group, thinking if they start, I'll go for him and hopefully the rest will lose their courage and leave me alone.

Like Pooka I grew up in a relativly poor area too, where I developed this tactic.


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## Structaural (Sep 18, 2003)

sorry to hear about that Bob, glad you're okay.

My mate was mugged just up the road from Urban just at the top of Concannon, last week.
He's a Londoner so he's a bit streetwise but this one took him by surprise. He was walking along acrelane with a kebab in one hand and a beer in the other, bit pissed (in fact knowing him, very pished). Next minute he's walking about 100 yards further along without his kebab and a black guy walking along next to him.
He looks at this guy, wondering why he's right next to him, says 'you alright mate?', 'yes' says the man and gives him a really funny look. 'Well you seem okay now I'll be off then' and the guy walks off. My mate is a bit confused by this and intrigued by the look the guy gave him checks his face in a mirror on a nearby car and his mouth is covered in blood and there's a fucking huge lump on his jaw.
He checks his pockets finds them empty (they took a DVD, his weed, his cigarettes and about 15 quid). 
All he remembers is walking with his kebab and nothing else. He must have been knocked clean out, his pockets emptied and then this other guy must have come and helped him out and made sure he made it home (which was just up the way towards Brixton) okay. The bruise on his jaw was something else. I wondered if he had been coshed. 
He's quite a tough guy my mate, he's a laybourer by trade.
any ideas? I though it might be someone on pushbike with some kind of cosh. My mate reckons someone just hit him with a flying headbutt or fist.

Lot of kid gangs around at the moment.  A friend of my girlfriend's was attacked by about 8 or 9 kids on Monday night and had to make a run for it and he's a black belt in Karate.
Me and the missus were attacked outside the flats next to the greenleaf by about 7 or 8 teenagers last year who were started throwing breezeblocks and bricks at us when we successfully fought them off, I knocked 3 of them out after they attacked my girlfriend first. Unbelievable. Luckily they all ran away when I picked up one of the breezeblocks to lob at them.

Still that's London life. My first mugging was when I was 13 and got punched in the eye when I wouldn't hand over my (very cool at the time) red adidas cagoul to three muggers in Loughboro Junction. I was gutted.

Too many posers with their posh moby's wandering about, at least round here that's the problem. To say nothing of the crack problem.


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## chazegee (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hendo _
> *Disturbed and unhappy to hear about what has happened to you Bob.
> I wondered what the muggings rate was in Lambeth, and these figures seem to offer an answer, but I wonder how accurate.
> 
> http://www.met.police.uk/crimestatistics/tables/August2003.htm *



Yay, Brixton wins


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## Anna Key (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *"I don't like comparing people to animals but doesn't this also happen in packs of dogs, prides of lions and troups of chimps? So young men doing it on the streets of London are not alone in the natural world."
> 
> Well we're all animals, but this sort of thinking isn't seeing people as individuals. It's on the way to "them and us" which I personally can't stand.*


Well, that's why I said "I don't like comparing people to animals..." I also dislike ways of thinking which include and exclude.

But I do think parenting - of which I know little - consists in part of turning animals into human beings. Some children can be notoriously cruel, bullying, violent and solipsistic. They have to be humanised.

You'll have read Lord of the Flies...

Bob: I was also sorry to hear about your incident. But bet the black eye looks dead hard. All the girls in the Beehive will fancy you while the blokes give you elbow room at the bar.


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## rubbershoes (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chazegee _
> *
> 
> Is Walworth road c. Amelia street posh? *



Amelia street. Is that on the Pullens estate? Mrs shoes lived on the Pullens when I met her  (dreamy memories of nervous courting ). It’s not posh but it’s not rough either There were  quite a few middleclass homosexuals living there about five years ago.

There was a good roof party on Penton place a few years back.


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## hatboy (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mr Retro _
> *I kind of envy you for that HB.
> 
> When a group of teenagers approach me I'm picking out who I reckon is the leader and mouth of the group, thinking if they start, I'll go for him and hopefully the rest will lose their courage and leave me alone.
> ...



I have to be honest. Like most people, I am sometimes suspicious of groups of lads. You see a group of big teenage boys/young men and you do sometimes brace yourself.  Teenage lads have the strength of men, the raging hormones, the desire to prove their masculinity, but often none of the maturity, compassion or wisdom you hope adults will have.

But I do try and communicate on a friendly, respectful level should communication be necessary or desirable.


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## Mr Retro (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *
> But I do try and communicate on a friendly, respectful level should communication be necessary or desirable. *



I know what you mean. So do I. It's just a pity by instinct I brace for confrontation rather than for a nod and hello.

Having said that there is a huge group that hang out around the shops by Gubbins, The sports shop and hair dressers. They are a good bunch. They do things like stop playing football when somebody older passes.

Embarassingly they do it when I pass.


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## pk (Sep 18, 2003)

Well I don't go around mugging people, so it IS an "us and them" situation.

It's enough to tempt one into taking a horsewhip and waiting with a rucksack for the hyenas to appear and try to take it, so that you can whip seven shades of shit out of the thieving little fuckbags, three at a time, then take the little bastards screaming back to their mothers.

Back pocket full of razorblades discourages pickpockets on the tube, too, easy to spot them with blood pissing out of their fingers, apparently.

I draw the line at street robbery, and if ever I was attacked I wouldn't tell the police, but I would arm myself and find the cunt even if it took years.

Not a popular opinion I know, but there you go.


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## IntoStella (Sep 18, 2003)

'Kin 'ell pk, this thread has already been going for two whole days. You're losing your touch, mate.


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## Anna Key (Sep 18, 2003)

I'm just waiting for pbman to arrive and offer to machine gun the little bastards with his 
AK47fullmetaljacketupyerownarsepenissubstituateilovecharltonhestonwhateverhappenedtodieselenormouslytediousgunpornidiocyhowtogetupmikesnosereallyfast.


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## poster342002 (Sep 18, 2003)

pooka,



> I must confess that what I was left with was anger more than anything - that some tossers thought such behaviour vaguely acceptable



That's what really pisses me off as well. It's the attitude of muggers that they have a "right" to your belongings - and if you DARE have the impudence to think otherwise or fight back, well that's just too much isn't it. That's getting a bit big for your boots. That requires these brave fucking Hard Men to take a knife to a lone woman with a child, for instance. 

Fucking cowards. How beating/stabbing the crap out of someone obviously weaker than themselves (or descending on someone in a pack) proves what a big, strong, virile man they are is utterly beyond me.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *But I do try and communicate on a friendly, respectful level should communication be necessary or desirable. *



You mean like, "Good evening, you fine set of bracing lads! What was that? You'd like my wallet? Most certainly! My pleasure! 
Oh, and thank you for that bash in the eye. What a strong lad!
Ooof! That's a mighty fine pair of trainers, young sir. Thank you for the extreme close up!"


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## William of Walworth (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chazegee _
> *London
> 
> Is Walworth road c. Amelia street posh? *



Is that where you are? I've never found it particularly dangerous round the Pullens estate ...


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## William of Walworth (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rubbershoes _
> *Amelia street. Is that on the Pullens estate? Mrs shoes lived on the Pullens when I met her  (dreamy memories of nervous courting ). It’s not posh but it’s not rough either There were  quite a few middleclass homosexuals living there about five years ago.
> 
> There was a good roof party on Penton place a few years back. *



Used to be party central round the Pullens (still is  occasionally) .. .. but I fear I am going off topic ....


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## William of Walworth (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by William of Walworth _
> *I know this is deliicate territory, IS, and I really do agree with you and Baub about it, but I wonder what kind of precautionary/take good care advice would be acceptable, without it being assumed that the advice is getting close to victim-blaming???
> <genuinely   >
> 
> I wonder whether I'm living on borrowed luck/time here in Walworth -- twelve years here and no incidents yet*



To get back on topic at least partly, I totally accept that some "take precautions" campaigns are crass and insulting and were rightly condemned earlier in this thread, but I do think I asked a legitimate question (which people ignored  ) -- what kind of poster/campaign urging people to take care, would be non insulting, non victim blaming, and thus acceptable and possibly capable of being more effective, and doing a little good? For at least some people?

Not saying that such campaigns should exist in isolation from other measures ...


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## Roadkill (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anna Key _
> *I've a neighbour, who falls into the 'nice but dim' category, who came to Brixton years ago because he thought it was Brixham and wanted to live by the sea.
> 
> But he liked it and stayed.
> ...



How on earth can someone mix up south London with a little town in Devon?  

Actually, I was in Brixham earlier in July doing some research, and I discovered that there actually is a second Brixton.  Still doesn't seem very confuse-able with Brixton London, though, does it?  

Anyway, I'll get out of this thread again now...


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## Skim (Sep 18, 2003)

((( Bob )))

This is awful news - hope you're feeling a little better  I've always felt a little unsafe walking to your flat because of the poor street lighting but never really felt at risk from kids hanging around. (Unlike our estate, which you're all too familiar with.) Guess you were just unlucky.

Hope to see you soon - take care


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## IntoStella (Sep 18, 2003)

That is beautiful,  Roadkill. I suggest we organise a big u75 summer camping holiday Here next year. Great idea, no?


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## Skim (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Roadkill _
> *How on earth can someone mix up south London with a little town in Devon?
> *



Having visited Brixton (just outside of Plymouth) I can confirm there is *abolsolutely no similarity* with SW2


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## pooka (Sep 18, 2003)

Just got this in an email flyer from Brixton Forum:



> The Traffic & Transport group is organising an event to focus on the issue of Safe Travel at Night this Friday 19 September from 6pm to 8.30 at Tunstall Road Brixton (opposite Brixton tube) as part of TravelWise week.
> 
> There will be entertainment, games, prizes, free gifts, maps and lots of information about getting around Brixton safely at night. Leaflet attached with more details.



The leaflet says:





> Want to know more about:
> 
> -	night buses in Lambeth?
> -	where to get a safe taxi cab in Brixton?
> ...


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## Roadkill (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by IntoStella _
> *That is beautiful,  Roadkill. I suggest we organise a big u75 summer camping holiday Here next year. Great idea, no?  *



At first I had visions of a hefty great caravan park at the bottom of Brixton Hill, for some reason.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 18, 2003)

Oooh! I was about to transcribe that and post it up.......you saved me some work....thanks pooka!

(I get the hard copy version)


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## IntoStella (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pooka _
> *The leaflet says:
> ..........The event is part of TravelWise week, supported by Transport for London and Lambeth Council....
> Games, prizes, jugglers *


 So Lambeth Council and Transport for London get together to work out how to solve the severe and chronic problem of street crime in South London.

After much deliberation, _THEY DECIDE TO GET SOME FUCKING JUGGLERS IN!!   

WE WANT SAFE STREETS, NOT C*NTING JUGGLERS!!!! _


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## hatboy (Sep 18, 2003)

I don't think they're gonna to tell me anything I don't know about how to be safe on the street at night, but there might be afew cycling giveaways, so that's worth going for.


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## Skim (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> * but there might be a few cycling giveaways, so that's worth going for.
> 
> *



Unicycles, if the jugglers have anything to do with it.


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## ben (Sep 18, 2003)

*talking to muggers*

I've been nearly sort-of-mugged in brixton once and been conned once (and come to think of it, was mugged when I was a tennager on the district line too) neither incident was anywhere near as serious as the ones you've discussed - and were more dealable with because I was lucky, and the mugger was on his own - not a group, which are, as your all saying, a different kettle of fish. Anyway, what I want to say is that thru both situations, I've sort of developed a (foolhardy-ish) policy that in the event of being mugged (touch wood i don't) of talking to the mugger while the incident is taking place, and arguing with them about what they're doing. Without going into it all, in the sort-of-mugging (where I did well and tho the guy threatened me with a nasty long pair of scissors, we discussed and negotiated and finally agreed on him having a croissant) and in the other (where the guy did the stupid 'have you got a pound for 2 fifties' thing and I was in a good mood and took him o face value and was stupid enough to put the money in his hand before he put it in mine, I pursued him down the street shouting that there was enough distrust in the neighbourhood and him arguing that the country was based on pillage (fair point - I said we had to start again from somewhere)) but my point is that in these sort of one-to-one, moderatley less dangerous situations (which may be a hard one to judge - and I'm making no statement as to what Bob/other people ought to have done in past events) I feel that, I (we?) sort of have a duty to acknowledge that we aren't just stereotypes (me white scared middle-classy type and in these instances them scary black mugger types) but humans. This is my first (nervous) posting, and probably sounds like I'm mad, but there we are. I just figure that this sort of crime is made more possible by people seeing each other as images or symbols rather than as people, and if you can humanise the situation, then in a (admittedly tiny) way, you might be helping the problem.


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## Anna Key (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Roadkill _
> *How on earth can someone mix up south London with a little town in Devon?  *


It's true! I put his confusion down to having received an expensive private school education.


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## IntoStella (Sep 19, 2003)

*talking to muggers*



> _Originally posted by ben _
> * tho the guy threatened me with a nasty long pair of scissors, we discussed and negotiated and finally agreed on him having a croissant...
> 
> I pursued him down the street shouting that there was enough distrust in the neighbourhood and him arguing that the country was based on pillage.... *


 Brilliant post .  Welcome to the boards!


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## Structaural (Sep 19, 2003)

*talking to muggers*



> _Originally posted by ben _
> *I've been nearly sort-of-mugged in brixton once and been conned once (and come to think of it, was mugged when I was a tennager on the district line too) neither incident was anywhere near as serious as the ones you've discussed - and were more dealable with because I was lucky, and the mugger was on his own - not a group, which are, as your all saying, a different kettle of fish. Anyway, what I want to say is that thru both situations, I've sort of developed a (foolhardy-ish) policy that in the event of being mugged (touch wood i don't) of talking to the mugger while the incident is taking place, and arguing with them about what they're doing. Without going into it all, in the sort-of-mugging (where I did well and tho the guy threatened me with a nasty long pair of scissors, we discussed and negotiated and finally agreed on him having a croissant) and in the other (where the guy did the stupid 'have you got a pound for 2 fifties' thing and I was in a good mood and took him o face value and was stupid enough to put the money in his hand before he put it in mine, I pursued him down the street shouting that there was enough distrust in the neighbourhood and him arguing that the country was based on pillage (fair point - I said we had to start again from somewhere)) but my point is that in these sort of one-to-one, moderatley less dangerous situations (which may be a hard one to judge - and I'm making no statement as to what Bob/other people ought to have done in past events) I feel that, I (we?) sort of have a duty to acknowledge that we aren't just stereotypes (me white scared middle-classy type and in these instances them scary black mugger types) but humans. This is my first (nervous) posting, and probably sounds like I'm mad, but there we are. I just figure that this sort of crime is made more possible by people seeing each other as images or symbols rather than as people, and if you can humanise the situation, then in a (admittedly tiny) way, you might be helping the problem. *



Hi ben, welcome to the boards.
very much in agreement with you and love those stories. 
I've been in about 5 or 6 potential mugging scenarios, all of which were calmed with merely engaging with the fellow and looking him right in the eye. (and sometimes giving him 50p or so). Fronting we used to call it.  
Losing the hampshire accent can help as well...


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## hatboy (Sep 19, 2003)

"I just figure that this sort of crime is made more possible by people seeing each other as images or symbols rather than as people, and if you can humanise the situation, then in a (admittedly tiny) way, you might be helping the problem."

Welcome Ben, you are absolutely right.  What your talking about is empathy.  One of the most useful/beneficial human qualities IMHO.


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## ben (Sep 19, 2003)

*Re: talking to muggers*



> _Originally posted by BootyLove _
> *
> Losing the hampshire accent can help as well... *



Thanks for welcomes etc - I lost the (wimbledon) accent when I was at school,  but annoyingly it's been coming back since I turned around 25, and now tend to sound like dick van dyke or something if i try losing it.

Actually just to add to the conning thing - after pursuing the guy down the street and the two of us engaging in post-colonial discussion etc, one of the weirdest thing I've ever seen happened - a strange druggy guy from under the arches (we were on atlantic rd) came towards us - he was young and in a shellsuit but moving in a weird lollopy sort of way - and threw a plastic bottle - presumably at me, but it nearly hit the other guy - who went 'what you doing throwing bottles at me for?' and then ran away laughing leaving me to the weird gollem-y bloke - who for maximum freak out effect then came up to me and flipped his eyelids inside out - without using his hands! just spontaneously they flipped! and I swear they had strange yellow discs sticking out from within the skin. Anyway, all I could think was it was a bit like in jurrasic park when a small cute dinosaur kind of purrs around the fat guy then suddenly goes hhheeehhh and little fins come out of his neck and he spits venom at him. I said, 'wow' he said 'you a batty man?', i said 'no' and went home.


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## hatboy (Sep 19, 2003)

Why aren't you a batty man?  What's wrong with you?


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## IntoStella (Sep 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: talking to muggers*



> _Originally posted by ben _
> * leaving me to the weird gollem-y bloke - who for maximum freak out effect then came up to me and flipped his eyelids inside out - without using his hands! just spontaneously they flipped! and I swear they had strange yellow discs sticking out from within the skin.  *


 Fuck me! David Icke was right all along


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## Structaural (Sep 19, 2003)

LOL! all of you.


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## Bob (Sep 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: talking to muggers*



> _Originally posted by ben _
> *Actually just to add to the conning thing - after pursuing the guy down the street and the two of us engaging in post-colonial discussion etc, one of the weirdest thing I've ever seen happened - a strange druggy guy from under the arches (we were on atlantic rd) came towards us - he was young and in a shellsuit but moving in a weird lollopy sort of way - and threw a plastic bottle - presumably at me, but it nearly hit the other guy - who went 'what you doing throwing bottles at me for?' and then ran away laughing leaving me to the weird gollem-y bloke - who for maximum freak out effect then came up to me and flipped his eyelids inside out - without using his hands! just spontaneously they flipped! and I swear they had strange yellow discs sticking out from within the skin. Anyway, all I could think was it was a bit like in jurrasic park when a small cute dinosaur kind of purrs around the fat guy then suddenly goes hhheeehhh and little fins come out of his neck and he spits venom at him. I said, 'wow' he said 'you a batty man?', i said 'no' and went home. *



Are you sure somebody hadn't spiked your drink?


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## Anna Key (Sep 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: talking to muggers*



> _Originally posted by ben _
> *Actually just to add to the conning thing - after pursuing the guy down the street and the two of us engaging in post-colonial discussion etc, one of the weirdest thing I've ever seen happened - a strange druggy guy from under the arches (we were on atlantic rd) came towards us - he was young and in a shellsuit but moving in a weird lollopy sort of way - and threw a plastic bottle - presumably at me, but it nearly hit the other guy - who went 'what you doing throwing bottles at me for?' and then ran away laughing leaving me to the weird gollem-y bloke - who for maximum freak out effect then came up to me and flipped his eyelids inside out - without using his hands! just spontaneously they flipped! and I swear they had strange yellow discs sticking out from within the skin. Anyway, all I could think was it was a bit like in jurrasic park when a small cute dinosaur kind of purrs around the fat guy then suddenly goes hhheeehhh and little fins come out of his neck and he spits venom at him. I said, 'wow' he said 'you a batty man?', i said 'no' and went home. *


I think that's beautiful, very clever writing. Welcome Ben. 


> Are you sure somebody hadn't spiked your drink?


If so, can I have some please?


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## Wednesdayite (Sep 20, 2003)

*Mugged in Brixton*

I got mugged on August bank holiday Monday outside my own house - 5 kids, very very polished operation - me sat at bus stop, they nearly lifted me up. Wallet out of pocket, no violence, over before it started. The police were ok, there straight away, helpful. Nothing they can do though. For the benefit of everyone else, they were about 15-18, 5 black kids, expensive sportswear. Sadly, I don't think that helps very much. It was just north of the Brixton Express, Lorn Road and Brixton Rd junction. Nearly Opposite Esso. Any similar experiences round there? Anyone else with suppressed anxieties, creeping fears of Brixton. I like Brixton  a lot... they won't run me out of here... but the third mugging in a year for me now, and I'm getting horrible suppressed violent feelings.


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## YojimboUK (Sep 20, 2003)

I know this is a long shot, but at around 6 a.m. this morning (Saturday) my flatmate, a 22-year-old brunette, was mugged at the junction of Clapham Park Road and Acre Lane. She'd just got off a 137 bus. Jumped by two teenagers, she fought one of them off but the other got her bag.

She's pretty shaken up, but physically okay.

The trouble is that she's just gone back to college to do her A-Levels, and her bag contained all her new text-books. Now she has to scrape together the cash to buy more.

If anyone saw anything, or knows someone who might have been in the area, or happens to have seen a dumped bag in a bin or something containing chemistry, physics and biology text-books... 

Any help would really be appreciated.


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## hatboy (Sep 20, 2003)

Three in a year?!  Why you?

How long have you been here Wednesday? I reckon some of people who came a couple of years back when all the magazines were saying " move to hip SW9" might now be feeling it's a bit rough for them.  People who've been here a long time get used to the sort of waves of incident that occur from time to time. I personally feel very rooted here nowadays. And for anyone reading this who doesn't know Brixton, it's not the Bronx or something. It's a great area, but it is an inner city area with all that entails.

"Creeping fears of Brixton". No, not specifically. But I do fear for more division in society between rich and poor. I think the very smart bars, etc right in poor people's faces and the extreme materialism of our society cause resentment that sometimes spills over into crime. Round where you are there are massive posh houses right on top of a big estate. 

Even Donal McIntyre got mugged there....  although he did spend three days with a laptop on a stick like a carrot!


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## Wednesdayite (Sep 20, 2003)

Yes, three times! Once up Brixton Hill and once on my own doorstep (I was followed back after a night on the piss) I do understand about the contrast between rich and poor, I just never really took it into account before now. Never thought of it that way. I'm not from a middle-class background, I'm from a fairly rough part of Sheffield. So in that sense I never thought of being on one side of an "us and them" situation. I'm aware, however, of this great divide of rich and poor in Brixton, and in the sense that I have a decent, nice public sector job, I suppose I am on the "rich" side of the fence. I'm not a newcomer really either, I live up here now, but I used to live up by the prison and before that a year in Tulse Hill. Seems to have come in a wave recently. Lived in Willesden and Waterloo and Hackney (the rough Clapton end) and the only other time I was mugged was in Soho four years ago. Your head gets into a spin when this kind of thing happens, and perspective goes out the window. I'm sure, if we start giving young black kids round here more opportunities then then the problem will gradually lessen. And I hope so, as it says outside a church on the Hill, "God So Loves Brixton"!!


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## hatboy (Sep 20, 2003)

I wanted to add that I think it is a scandal that many playgrounds and other youth facilities in the inner cities are so under-funded now that they struggle to survive even on volunteer workers running them.

Why the hell can't the government see the massive link between street crime and poor kids having nothing constructive to do??  It's one more piece of the timebomb of social problems and inequity we are storing up.

One more thing. I wanted to say that I feel that when an incident goes off round here now, as opposed to ten years or more ago, it often seems to me that it is more violent and more extreme. I mean years ago for instance guns were hardly used in muggings atall, now they are. Maybe not much, but more.  That does worry me. As does the casual attitude to guns and the slaying of so many young men.

Underneath all of this, I feel that our isolating (how many single households are there?), materialist, celeb-obsessed, self-oriented society is failing.  It's not promoting empathy.   The less empathy we all have for eachother, the more doomed we all are.


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## hatboy (Sep 20, 2003)

"I'm sure, if we start giving young black kids round here more opportunities then then the problem will gradually lessen."

Who is "we"? And isn't it more about people having opportunity to do their own thing rather than white people handing something down if that's what you mean?  I think that's part of the talking-down-to thing that winds black kids up so much in the first place. And do you think that this is across a black/white divide or something. It's about have's and have-nots or the perception of such. There's plenty of white muggers out there.


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## hatboy (Sep 20, 2003)

This post was supposed to be before the above two but I messed up.  I wanted to come back on something Mike said.

I said:

But I do try and communicate on a friendly, respectful level should communication be necessary or desirable. 

Then Mike said: 

You mean like, "Good evening, you fine set of bracing lads! What was that? You'd like my wallet? Most certainly! My pleasure! 
Oh, and thank you for that bash in the eye. What a strong lad!
Ooof! That's a mighty fine pair of trainers, young sir. Thank you for the extreme close up!"

I say now:  Shut up Mike! No I mean that I take the attitude that people are alright until they are not. People aren't foreign to me unless they make themselves foreign.

It's delicate with groups of lads because they're all searching for who they are and desperate to be cool and man-like so whatever you do it's often going to be sneered at as uncool. I'd be more likely to joke and connect with adult strangers. But with lads I'd probably just say "alright" or "no worries" or something neutral unless I was feeling bold. If someone did say "gimme your wallet", I might say "you got bad taste in mugging victims cos I'm too poor to bother with" (which is sadly true). Or I might say "I know your fucking mum, shithead". 

The point is to let them know you don't take any shit either and make it clear that you are not eyeing people suspiciously or looking down on people. I can see why that makes kids just hanging out doing nothing wrong angry. 

And, to be blunt, if it's black boys and they were hassling me I might even say something along the lines of " don't gimme that shit, I'm not just any old stupid white idiot you know.... I'm a special kind of stupid white idiot!" (Plenty of self piss-taking there). I dunno, it all depends on the tone of the exchange, but if you can get someone laughing you've made the connection. And yeah I realise there are some violent teens around who won't see reason like I describe, but (black or white or whatever) they are in a minority. Most kids are just trying to grow up too fast.


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## YojimboUK (Sep 21, 2003)

That's all well and good. But the time I was mugged by five black kids, if they'd asked me for my phone then I'd have given them my phone. But they had the poor etiquette to open negotiations by breaking my nose(*), and then hitting me over the back of the head with something solid.

They didn't get the phone, nor my wallet, passport, computer or anything else I was carrying. Modern youth is crap. 

(*) "Well," said the doctor I'd waited six hours in Casualty to see, "everything that can be broken in a nose is broken in yours. Here's a plaster. Go and see your GP on Monday." The modern NHS is crap as well.


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## Wednesdayite (Sep 21, 2003)

Hatboy - 

"Opporunities?" "we"?
Well that was just a comment made without proper thought. But A) I know there are white muggers, I was mugged in Soho by a white man. B)   Yes the black kids can do their own thing and will be more successful with each generation. But we do have something to hand over, rather than "hand down" and that's our commitment to rid this rotten society of its inherent racism and prejudices.


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## hatboy (Sep 21, 2003)

OK.

Can you say some more, what do "we" have to "hand-over"?

Who is "we" again by the way? 

YoJimbo - yeah, if people are set on attacking you/me/whoever, sometimes you have no chance to do anything.  That's a pretty shit thing to happen to you. Hope you're OK now.


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## CK1977 (Sep 21, 2003)

> Yes the black kids can do their own thing and will be more successful with each generation. But we do have something to hand over, rather than "hand down" and that's our commitment to rid this rotten society of its inherent racism and prejudices.



What a load of cobblers.  "We", "Hand Over" yarda yarda yarda.  What exactly is "We" and what is "We do have something to hand over"? 

Yours
The "Confused" 27 year old Black Guy


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## hatboy (Sep 21, 2003)

Yeah Wednesdayite, I agree with CK1977, you do need to explain what you mean or think it thru some more. 

What you've said so far sounds well meaning but out of touch and patronising, like these black kids are something distant from you, another thing.

So who is "we" then?


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## Wednesdayite (Sep 21, 2003)

Ok, good point hatboy and CK1977.  My points have not been well-reasoned. My apologies. It does sound patronising but really what I want is to see an education system that fits and benefits equally every colour and culture. Some, it fails. For example, the general gap in achievement between children of Indian parents and those with Pakistani parents. I don't for a minute think that the fault lies in the Pakistani community. I'm half Asian and White and had experience of racism.  I want to see every race have truly equal chances. I do not want to patronise and  I look down to no-one.

{note: mistake fixed. You can alter mistakes in your posts Wednesdayite by clicking on "edit" in the bottom right of your post.  }


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## chegrimandi (Sep 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *I wanted to add that I think it is a scandal that many playgrounds and other youth facilities in the inner cities are so under-funded now that they struggle to survive even on volunteer workers running them.
> 
> Why the hell can't the government see the massive link between street crime and poor kids having nothing constructive to do??  It's one more piece of the timebomb of social problems and inequity we are storing up.
> ...



I'd echo all of that with bells on.

I've been mugged twice. Once in Stoke Newington by kids on bikes. Once on the beach by kids with massive machetes in Honduras!


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## CK1977 (Sep 22, 2003)

> Ok, good point hatboy and CK1977. My points have not been well-reasoned. My apologies. It does sound patronising but really what I want is to see an education system that fits and benefits equally every colour and culture. Some, it fails. For example, the general gap in achievement between children of Indian parents and those with Pakistani parents. I don't for a minute think that the fault lies in the Pakistani community. I'm half Asian and White and had experience of racism. I want to see every race have truly equal chances. I do not want to patronise and I look down to no-one.
> 
> {note: mistake fixed. You can alter mistakes in your posts Wednesdayite by clicking on "edit" in the bottom right of your post. }



Ok.  I agree with you on the above point. Their is a serious lack of trust in the Education system when it comes to "Afro-Caribbean" families.  I was actually watching a programme about this a few months back...and RACISM seems to be dripping all over the Education System, the general attitude from the teachers and heads of schools seems to be "These Black Caribbean Kids" are all the same, they are all failiures.  The problems lies where their seems to be a huge lack Integrating "Afro-Caribbeans" into School teacher, local authority and Government sector positions.


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## hatboy (Sep 22, 2003)

If you haven't already CK1977, see this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/work_hard_and_smart.stm

Archbishop Tennison's at the Oval seems like a school that's finally getting it right. Other schools should look and learn from this IMO.


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## CK1977 (Sep 22, 2003)

> If you haven't already CK1977, see this:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st...d_and_smart.stm
> 
> Archbishop Tennison's at the Oval seems like a school that's finally getting it right. Other schools should look and learn from this IMO.



Thanks Hatboy, that was a great read (really informative).  I agree with your point about the other schools too.


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## isvicthere? (Sep 22, 2003)

*how dare you?!*



> _Originally posted by CK1977 _
> *Ok.  I agree with you on the above point. Their is a serious lack of trust in the Education system when it comes to "Afro-Caribbean" families.  I was actually watching a programme about this a few months back...and RACISM seems to be dripping all over the Education System, the general attitude from the teachers and heads of schools seems to be "These Black Caribbean Kids" are all the same, they are all failiures.  The problems lies where their seems to be a huge lack Integrating "Afro-Caribbeans" into School teacher, local authority and Government sector positions. *



I very strongly disagree with this. You capitalise the word "racism" (presumably to highlight its prevalence) then tamely follow up with "seems to be" a problem in the education system. Well, you may have watched a single TV programme, but for the last sixteen years I have taught in three different London boroughs. The casual suggestion, based on your IMO lazy viewing of a TV show, that I and my colleagues do not take this most significant issue seriously, and - even worse - display crude racial stereotypes is profoundly insulting. I think you should withdraw it. But I wouldn't be surprised if you don't.


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## ben (Sep 22, 2003)

Re racism within education system, I don't think CK1977 was aiming his views at you and your colleagues - I think the problem is there are deeply embedded configurations that people just can't see - people aren't always deliberately racist within themselves as such, it's just that the language, the world-views available to them in their culture at the time are racist/are excluding. This goes for society as a whole, not just the education system, but sticking to education, an example is that they're only now discussing introducing the british empire into the national curriculum. About bloody time! And yet it's a matter of controversy because some people may teach it as that glorious time of fairplay where the british brought railways to the world.

Also, apparently, English Literature was first taught in the 19th century in Indian schools, not British ones, as a way of educating Indian children about how marvellous Britain was, and presenting an idealised image of the British (heroic progressive industrial men etc)... the study then goes on to suggest that Britain then (re)imported this form of Eng Lit teaching into its own schools. I'm as uninformed as the next person, and I'm sure multi-culturalist approaches have done a lot to root out all of those deep attitudes of superiority (of european culture, of a particular sort of male archetype, aside from racial superiority) but it's an uphill task that many teachers will find difficult.

A hard question I wonder about is I think a lot of work is done that shows ethnic minority acheivement being in a way 'good too' or 'as good as white acheivement'. So for instance in hatboy's bbc article example the thing about Lewis latimer, Eddison's colleague, could work this way. Obvioulsy, while this no doubt does have benefits, I also think that this still fits in the configuration of us and them - the issue is not finally to say blacks are as good as whites, but to say colour, race, nationality don't matter - they're constructs. But this is possibly a hard message to get across/too idealistic. Maybe the world is irreperably locked into over-emphaising identity.


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## CK1977 (Sep 22, 2003)

> The casual suggestion, based on your IMO lazy viewing of a TV show, that I and my colleagues do not take this most significant issue seriously, and - even worse - display crude racial stereotypes is profoundly insulting. I think you should withdraw it. But I wouldn't be surprised if you don't.



It's NOT based on a lazy viewing of T.V. It's BASED ON FACT!!! It's something I have experienced and some of the current "Afro-Caribbean" school goers are experiencing.

I DON'T care if you've taught in every borough of London, i'm afraid it's happening.

And you're right I won't withdraw it because it's FACT.


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## hatboy (Sep 22, 2003)

The documentary about this issue afew weeks ago that I saw (I think it was the London programme) concluded that we've all heard most of the arguments before about why Caribbean British boys do poorly in school, but that since they very often enter the school system at a higher attainment level than other kids and them fall aside we must admit that there are problems with some teachers and some teaching methods and the schools themselves.

This isn't personal to you Vic. But it is true. It's time to stop making excuses and get on with fixing this. As Archbishop Tennison's school have done.

Oh and my views on this are not just based on the TV doc. They're based on what I can see and hear around me, including opinions of teachers and some school pupils of various "identities".  Interesting post Ben btw.


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## CK1977 (Sep 23, 2003)

> I don't think that helps very much. It was just north of the Brixton Express, Lorn Road and Brixton Rd junction. Nearly Opposite Esso. Any similar experiences round there?



Not personally....but there is some nasty pieces of work that Live/Operate round their.   I don't live too far away from their myself...bout 2-3 minute walk.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *Why the hell can't the government see the massive link between street crime and poor kids having nothing constructive to do??  It's one more piece of the timebomb of social problems and inequity we are storing up. *



Purely and simply, it isn't a case that the government *can#t* acknowledge the link between poverty and crime, it's that they *won't*, and the reason they won't is because it wouldn't play well with "middle england", and the fuckwits who actually belive crap about all poor people being crims, all black folk being dope dealers, and all benefits recipients being scroungers. There's no (or very little) political capital to be made from really helping the poor, but lots to be made from demonising the poor, the ethnic minorities etc etc.
They know exactly how deep the link between poverty and crime is, and you can gaurantee that knowledge puts the shits up them so bad that the *only* thing they'll do is aim to keep us down ever more fiercely, so that we don't get ideas.
Give it another few years like this and I reckon we're looking at civil unrest again. Fuck knows I don't want to see any more riots in my lifetime, but I have a feeling it's all going to boil over again, especially given the large-scale social housing problems.


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## WasGeri (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> * If someone did say "gimme your wallet", I might say "you got bad taste in mugging victims cos I'm too poor to bother with" (which is sadly true).*



I tried that tactic once - resulting in being hit over the head with a bottle for being 'mouthy'  

There are no right on wrong tactics when being mugged - it depends on the circumstances. I got it wrong that time - I should have shut up and let them get on with it (I didn't even have a bag or any money with me anyway).

The second time, I chased the bloke who stole my bag down an unlit alleyway and appealed to him just to take the purse out and give me the bag back - which he very obligingly did.

The third time, I knew it was coming and held on tightly to the bag - ending up in a tug of war and eventually they gave up and ran off.

The fourth time was in Barcelona and again I chased after them but I couldn't find them.

The fifth time, the bloke was so wired and looked as if he might be dangerous so I just let him take the money (I didn't have much anyway, and he gave me the purse back).


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## ernestolynch (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *The documentary about this issue afew weeks ago that I saw (I think it was the London programme) concluded that we've all heard most of the arguments before about why Caribbean British boys do poorly in school, but that since they very often enter the school system at a higher attainment level than other kids and them fall aside we must admit that there are problems with some teachers and some teaching methods and the schools themselves.
> 
> This isn't personal to you Vic. But it is true. It's time to stop making excuses and get on with fixing this. As Archbishop Tennison's school have done.
> ...



Who gives a shit about your views? You watch some TV programme made by yuppies and suddenly you have the answers to inner-city crime:

'Blame the Teachers'

Funny but that's what the Daily Mail say as well.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 28, 2003)

Our entire society is failing inner city children. The situation in Lambeth is particularly bad . Here are some figures I've lifted from a Secondary Schools Campaign In Lambeth leaflet.(www.ssil.org.uk)

"In Lambeth, 2,400 Year 6 kids compete for 1,000 Year 7 places.
60% of the places are in Faith Schools (versus 25% nationally).
60% of the places are for girls (versus 50% in primary schools).
Only a few of the places are at a co-educational, non-denominational community based school with a sixth form."

Lambeth Council has been selling off schools for private development for years. They are closing primaries too. I know children who travel about four hours a day getting to and from school. Youth and play provision outside school is practically non-existent compared to 20 years ago.

A lot of teachers in my son's school are great, a handful are outstanding, but they're leaving inner-city schools more and more, and I can't blame them. Some teachers are in the wrong job, have poor interpersonal skills, let alone teaching skills and don't seem to even like children. 

My son is taught more by supply teachers, probationary teachers and overseas temps than by permanent staff. In some areas my sons education is frankly appalling. His maths teacher particularly is useless. He speaks poor english and my son finds it really hard to understand what the teacher is saying, along with the other pupils (a letter sent to me from him is misspelt and some sentences make no sense whatsoever so I can well believe it). My son is falling further and further behind in Maths and is ignored when he asks for help. 

Some teachers have a really crap attitude. They demand respect from the pupils but treat the pupils in a rude, arrogant and disrespectful fashion. The school has a complaints procedure, but when a group of year 9 pupils attempted to make a formal complaint about Maths teaching they were completely ignored. I find it hard to believe that in the years that vic and ernesto (good teachers both, I'm sure of that) have been teaching, that they haven't come across a bad teacher, because in all the years I've been a parent I've come across some real stinkers. 

I don't believe any problem has a single cause, and the biggest problem we have is the way children are viewed in this society, like some sort of alien beings that must be controlled, kept apart, crushed before they crush us. Children are treated like third-class citizens, so is it any wonder that those who teach them are seemingly not particularly valued by society either?


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## hatboy (Sep 28, 2003)

"You watch some TV programme made by yuppies"

Listen to yourself. You really are an idiot.


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## ernestolynch (Sep 28, 2003)

> They're based on what I can see and hear around me



You sound like some oddjob who wanders around the High Street wearing a floppy hat and rose-coloured spectacles, giving high-fives to traffic wardens and rastas alike, and exchanging jive-talk with de yoot as you go into Spar for your tin of beans...

Oh if we all had the all-knowing all-seeing finger on the pulse that you possess.

Please - give us some more tips on how to strike up conversations with crack-crazed knife-wielding robbers, please!


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## hatboy (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ernestolynch _
> *You sound like some oddjob who wanders around the High Street wearing a floppy hat and rose-coloured spectacles, giving high-fives to traffic wardens and rastas alike, and exchanging jive-talk with de yoot as you go into Spar for your tin of beans...
> 
> Oh if we all had the all-knowing all-seeing finger on the pulse that you possess.
> ...



Flippant answer: Yep, that's me. You're just jealous, bitch!

Unflippant answer:  What's so wrong with basing my opinions on "what I see and hear around me"?


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## Bob (Sep 28, 2003)

*next ridiculous crime story*

Got the bus back early this morning after a late one at Tongue & Groove - and was walking back to my flat. Some geezer comes up to me and tries to sell me a knocked off phone - at 5am!


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## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2003)

Mrs Magpie



> Some teachers have a really crap attitude. They demand respect from the pupils but treat the pupils in a rude, arrogant and disrespectful fashion.




I have to agree with Mrs Magpie here. There's no excuse for it - though the "overworked, underpaid" one will probably be trotted out again. Whilst that excuse IS valid for other problems in the teaching profffesion, it does not and should not be used to justify petty bullying or abuse of power.



> The school has a complaints procedure, but when a group of year 9 pupils attempted to make a formal complaint about Maths teaching they were completely ignored.



This is how most heiarchical corporate bodies "handle" complaints and greivances. That is - with a pointless words-on-paper excercise that is just a formality and ALWAYS returns a verdict of "We find no evidence of harrasment/bullying/mistreatment etc etc". The chain of command will always close ranks to protect it's own in such situations.



> I find it hard to believe that in the years that vic and ernesto (good teachers both, I'm sure of that) have been teaching, that they haven't come across a bad teacher



And here's the problem: most of the good teachers are still reluctant to accept the existance of the bad - let alone condemn their actions. Hence the bad ones are able to hide behind this "close ranks to protect our own at all costs" attitude.


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## shave (Sep 29, 2003)

*Bastard tried to nick my bike, then called me a wanker!!*

Semi-relevant mugging tale - was on a train the other day and had my bike in one of the purpose built racks.  Naturally I had taken another seat and was catching up with a bit of archive reading from U75 (nice and thick printout, I can tell you!).  Just happened to chance a look over at my trusty steed to see some geezer whelling it about all proprietarilly as if it was his!  Picking my groovy cat stickers off it and testing the brakes an all sorts.

So I got a little uptight and thought it would be better not to accuse him in case he took it the wrong way (great British manners doing us all favours again!!) and at the next stop, he gets up and starts wheeling my pride and joy off.  So I get up and "excuse me, mate" (more nicey nicey manners!!) "where do you think you're going with my bike?" (nice tone mind, as if it's only natural to go wheeling other people's bikes around, as if they were in some kind of danger and wouldn't do to let it alone on the train).  So he tries to pull it off with sheer force.  Tosser.

"That's MY bike" I yell.  "So what are you doing leaving it lying around then?" He yells back.  "Mate," (more nicey nicey from me.... I lower my voice, raise my eyebrows slightly) "you just tried to steal my bike!".  He yells "wanker".  I shake my head, talk about dissappointment.  Jesus, why do I bother?!

The kid could have got a record for that, isn't it intent to steal or something.  I mean, it was really quite mercanary and theiving.  I think he looked quite shaken to have got rumbled though.  But I was surprised to see him try to make a run for it.  Other passengers just pretended they were asleep.  I was also surprised about how much it got me pumped up too - big adrenalin rush and felt angry about it too.  If it had come to it I would have got off the train and onto the platform with him and got my bike back by real force.  I expect he'd never done anything like that before, the old girl's only worth about fourty notes anyways!

Moral:  Make sure people know your stuff is yours, or chain it to something!!!  

Moral 2:  Front goes far.


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## ernestolynch (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by poster342002 _
> *And here's the problem: most of the good teachers are still reluctant to accept the existance of the bad - let alone condemn their actions. Hence the bad ones are able to hide behind this "close ranks to protect our own at all costs" attitude. *


Could you just let us know, chief, whether you are talking from experience, or out of your arse parroting the latest 'Bash the Teachers' Daily Mail article.

I know full well that there is a huge number of shit teachers in London in particular. If you'd been on these boards longer you would have read detailed posts by myself outlining why.

Solution: pay more taxes and sort out the housing problem in the south east, or shut up.


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## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2003)

ernestolynch,



> Could you just let us know, chief, whether you are talking from experience



Sadly, I have had direct and second hand experience of bad teachers which I will NOT go into on an open forum.



> pay more taxes and sort out the housing problem in the south east



Eh? That is another (genuine) problem entirely - but how on earth does it relate to the problem of teachers that bully pupils?

And let's give the "mail reader" type rubbish a break, yeah? Do a search on my postings and you'll see I'm on the left of the political spectrum - I am against tryrany, oppression and so on in all it's forms. That includes bad teachers. Why does anyone who says one word against teachers automatically labelled in such a way?

It is very tiresome how anyone who dares suggest that some (NOT all) tachers might - just might - abuse their authority gets an automatic tirade of insults hurled at them. But then, it does save facing up to the problem.  There was a thread on General Forum some time ago where people were recounting fairly horrific "bad teacher" stories  - how sad that so much of the left chooses not to champion the victims of this particular type of mistreatment (if it were by the cops they'd be up in arms). No -  because these people are supposedly "on our side" and in a union, so this scenario must be impossible and they can do no wrong. Or faling that, there must be some utterly unconnected but totally mitigating excuse for it - such as high housing prices in the South East.


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## ernestolynch (Sep 29, 2003)

Funny that, how you seem to think that its all the one way of 'teachers bullying pupils'.

Yet six months ago there was a thread rejoicing in students who bullied teachers. One gloated how he had caused a young woman teacher to have a miscarriage and a nervous breakdown(he feels very guilty about this now), and another spouted how he physically assaulted an ageing teacher on a train and broke his nose. This prick is unrepentant about that and very recently threatened me on the boards with violence.

But hey, 'teach' is fair game, eh?


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## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2003)

ernestolynch,

I am fully aware that teachers can be (and are) bullied by pupils. This is indeed wrong (although I often wonder if there's SOMETIMES - NOT ALWAYS - provocation involved that we don't get to hear about).

However, whilst teachers can get their cases heard, pupils usually cannot. It's a pupils' word against a teachers and - just as when a worker makes a complaint against their boss - the word of the person in authority is usually taken (the teacher).

It does make me laugh when power-wielding quasi-managerialists talk of "comrade" this and "workers' rights" that the one minute and then snarl "do as your told or else" to those under their authority the next.


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## ernestolynch (Sep 29, 2003)

Do you have any figures to back up your 'teachers can get their cases heard' and 'pupils usually cannot'?

Or is this more conjecture. Not picking an argument here, but unless you actually work day to day in education, or are currently attending school, you really are relying on hearsay.

If a student has a complaint about a teacher physically bullying them, then the teacher is normally suspended immediately, pending an independent inquiry.

You seem to be taking just a one-sided argument here without looking at the whole thing. Things have changed since you were at school, I'd wager. Did you go to a state school?


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## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2003)

ernestolynch,

As I said earlier I have experienced first and second hand accounts of teachers behaving in unjust ways and the total lack of redress the pupil has for it in reality - regardless of what "official" policies exist on paper. I will not go into these personal accounts on an open forum... feel free to think that completely demolishes my argument somehow if you like. Makes no difference to me.

And yes, I did go to a state school.


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## Mr Retro (Sep 30, 2003)

I've never seen a thread on teachers and pupils on here but I often seem to miss the best ones. Are there any links?

One thing I learned is that the education system here seems to be fucked. When MsR and I have kids I'll be offski back to Ireland to have them educated.


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## hatboy (Sep 30, 2003)

I notice with Ernesto that if he loses an argument instead conceding anything or publically stating he may have been wrong he just stops posting on that thread.


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## ernestolynch (Sep 30, 2003)

No hatman, just a bit busy planning new ways to bully schoolkids, on top of how to suck up to the Inspectors...


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## William of Walworth (Sep 30, 2003)

Do please read Mrs Magpie's post on the previous page ernesto, you seem to have ignored it.


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## Chrysanthemum (Oct 5, 2003)

I think Mrs Magpie had really good points about the message society sends kids.  I've seen lots of children suffer rejection within the school system, when they "fail" to get school places, and they know they're not going to get more chances.  They get the message loud and clear that they're not worthy, and it makes sense to me that they get mad about it.   It's really cruel to reject people at the age of 10, and do it so publicly too.   
There are lots of stories about adults being mugged by kids on this thread, and I think it's awful: I really feel for anyone who's been attacked or threatened.  But kids, especially boys, are also hugely vulnerable to crime.  I can't remember the exact numbers, but something like one in 5 school children has been mugged.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 5, 2003)

Yes, the kids being jacked by other kids is especially prevalent with year 7 boys.....it happened to my boy at least half-a-dozen times....never ever to my girls, they got adult kerb-crawlers .......my boy stopped reporting getting robbed to the police after jacking no. 4 because he felt it was a waste of time........


I'm not surprised ernestolynch has completely ignored my previous post....remember he is a Stalinist (I wish I could say Stalin apologist to be a little kinder, but that's not the case....he ignores what doesn't suit his view....if he was a mod he'd be masking embarrassing and awkward people out of threads........)


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## ernestolynch (Oct 5, 2003)

Actually I'm not a 'Stalinist' whatever that is.

Yes I have read your post, and it is almost identical to one in which I contributed to pastcaring's Multiculturalism thread two months ago, except I also outlined the reasons behind the problems you mentioned.

As for ignoring it - in what way? I don't think it destroyed my argument at all, if that is what you were intending to do. In my view it backed up my argument that all teachers aren't racist as hat-man kept hinting at.


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## hatboy (Oct 6, 2003)

"my argument that all teachers aren't racist as hat-man kept hinting at."

All teachers aren't racist?  That's your argument? LOL.  Of course I was never either saying or implying that all teachers _were_ racist, if anyone's still interested.  Merely that some are.

Of course some are. For some reason Ernesto will not recognise this.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *"my argument that all teachers aren't racist as hat-man kept hinting at."
> 
> All teachers aren't racist?  That's your argument? LOL.  Of course I was never either saying or implying that all teachers were racist, if anyone's still interested.  Merely that some are.
> ...



Just the same as some teachers are good and some are shit...
Like all people they are all different.

Although my school was a particularly bad one .  One teacher was sent down, two were sacked, one had an affair with a fifteen year old (a relative of mine) and we caught another two shagging in a car on the school playing fields 


 

I guess I was unlucky.


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## Bob (Oct 6, 2003)

*PE teachers*

I was sitting around with a bunch of people I work with the other day and the subject of PE teachers came up. Every single one of us had had some horrible experience with them - can we agree that loads of them are bastards?


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## Structaural (Oct 6, 2003)

*PE teachers*



> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *I was sitting around with a bunch of people I work with the other day and the subject of PE teachers came up. Every single one of us had had some horrible experience with them - can we agree that loads of them are bastards? *



and they smell funny.


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## Kebabman (Oct 11, 2003)

Finally got mugged in london about an hour and a quarter ago. I knew it was gonna happen at some point - been in london a month now but didn't think it would happen quite so soon!

Very nice about it though they asked my name and shook my hand...


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## Structaural (Oct 12, 2003)

...and it was very nice to meet you.


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## hatboy (Oct 12, 2003)

LOL @ Booty.

"shook my hand" indeed!


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## IntoStella (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kebabman _
> *Very nice about it though they asked my name and shook my hand... *


 Cheeky fuckers!

I'm sorry you got mugged, kebabman.  It's fucking rotten, whether they shake your hand or not.


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## hendo (Oct 12, 2003)

Very sorry indeed to hear what happened. Were they armed?

Did you bother the constabulary about the matter?


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## Kebabman (Oct 12, 2003)

I'm not sure if they were armed, they didn't bring anything out but they kept looking in all directions and hiding one arm behind their back which was slightly disconcerting!

Actually they weren't violent at all  - they were overly friendly but in a really sinister way. They asked me what my name was and where I lived (I lied on both counts), offered me some beer and politely asked me for a fag then 2 quid for a train ticket. They got really jumpy when I stuck my hand in my pocket and guided me away from the main road "cos people might think we're doing something"(!). Anyway I pulled out £4 in coins and gave it them in the hope they'd fuck off, but they carried on walking with me. They only started getting aggressive when I wouldn't walk down a side street with them, and told me to give them everything I had in my pocket in cash (about 51p and a bit of gum!) at which point they promptly sped off. Pretty mundane i must imagine as muggings go!

It was a really surreal experience actually, there was no way I could go to the police because at the end of the day they basically asked me for money and I gave it to them. Although it was quite obvious I had little choice in the matter. Actually I had a friend who was relieved of 60 quid in a very similar way earlier this year.


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## hendo (Oct 13, 2003)

It sounds as if you were mugged - because the threat wasn't verbalised doesn't mean it wasn't there.

It all sounds really threatening and intimidatory. (Whereabouts did it all happen?) I hope you're feeling OK.

And Kebabman you should, IMHO, report it because it helps the police to deal with muggings when they know where they occur, and also because it prevents them covering up the real extent of the problem. 

Basically, handshake or no, they are muggers, they are complete bastards and they need locking up.


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## ben (Oct 15, 2003)

*Racism in schools*

Just to go back to a sort of detour discussion that went on a while back in this thread re racism in education system, yesterday's education guardian had this article:

gifted but black article 

Gives some facts and figures and some detailed reasons about prejudices etc that disadvantage afro-carribbean boys. Also has useful list of links at bottom.


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## poster342002 (Oct 15, 2003)

*"Polite" Muggers*

The probable reason behind the phenomenon of "polite muggings" of the type suffered by Kebabman is that it ensures that no obvious evidence appears on the CCTV systems. 

Some little shit politely-but-threateningly asked to "borrow" 50p in Electric Avenue a few years back - I simply stepped into the nearest shop and the fucker walked off. 

A totally bizarre attack upon myself happened in Stockwell tube many, many years ago when I was about 13 or 14.  A couple of teenagers, one male the other female, walked over to me and the male on pointed at a poster on the wall - whereapon the female one punched me in the stomache. The male one then pointed his finger at his own head in a "she's mad" kind of way and they went off. Not one word was spoken throughout the entire process - scary and utterly weird.


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## hatboy (Oct 15, 2003)

"Some little shit politely-but-threateningly asked to "borrow" 50p in Electric Avenue a few years back - I simply stepped into the nearest shop and the fucker walked off."

That's begging, not mugging.


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## Structaural (Oct 16, 2003)

for real.


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## poster342002 (Oct 16, 2003)

hatboy,

No it wasn't begging - the whole atmospheare was different. This person (probably about 16-18 yrs old) sidled up to me, speaking quietly but nastily "asking" for a loan of 50p. He was speaking quietly so as not to be heard by passers-by and gave every sign that this was not a "request" for cash. 

There have been a lot of these pseudo-mugging incidents told on this board, so this one shouldn't really come as any surprise to anyone.


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## chieftain (Oct 16, 2003)

I was apporached by a group of black hoodie youts in Hackney near my flat a few months back, I was a little nervous as I was standing next to mine and my wifes bikes, the obligatory "gimme a ciggarette man" demand sounded so I did give the first lad a smoke, next was "gimme a cigarette" "and me" etc, I gave away two and then said "no share the others" to the rest, after this the older lads walked off leaving me talking to a smaller group of younger lads who were kind of holding on to my wifes bike handle bars, I kind of thought  "hmmmn, a bikes going to get nicked here" but as Hatboy has described I talked to the group asking if they were interested in bikes, this ended up in quite a good conversation with one lad telling me what kind of bike his big brother had, asking how much my bike cost and where he could get one like mine? I replied that he could get a cheap bike in Brick Lane on a sunday, his reply was a classic..................... "nah man there all nicked, my mum would kill me"!!!!!


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## hatboy (Oct 16, 2003)

"nah man there all nicked, my mum would kill me"!!!!!

So what in fact was happening was some lads were a bit pushy and cheeky with asking for fags and were interested in looking at your bike. 

It's understandable that you might think "do these kids want to nick my bike" when surrouded by a group of teenagers grabbing onto it, but I bet it was really worthwhile talking to them and then finding out that they were just cheeky lads?  And now if you see them again you'll feel more at ease and can say hello. It's simple really but I think it's good (it should be usual behavior for everyone) that you treated them with respect, which probably raised you in their estimation.

The "can we all have one of your fags" thing is quite obviously testing whether you're a soft touch.


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## chieftain (Oct 16, 2003)

yep, they were just kids who were confident and a litle cheeky just like I was. I have seen them since and they have nodded and received a nod back.


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## TeeJay (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *This could be the real dark side of 'a Brixton moment' - a thread to share your mugged moments in Brixton.
> 
> So I'll start. Was mugged about 100 feet from my flats last night by a gang of 7 kids - all about 12-15 - didn't really feel seriously worried when they walked up to me on the street since they were all so short and scrawny (I'm 6ft). Big mistake. When I too late realised it was time to scarper they knocked me to the ground / jumped on me and hit me with a metal pole. Luckily since it was 9pm various people from the flats next to mine heard and came out on their balconies - so the kids scarpered - leaving me with only a few bruises to show.
> ...


Just out of interest - what happens to a 12 to 15 year old kid who gets done for mugging?


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## Choc (Oct 17, 2003)

i was mugged once in 5 years.


in a way it was a bit my own fault (or really  not really) because i think i was wearing kitten heels and might have looked a bit like a claphamite coming from the living bar.

it was 11 pm i was pissed and on my way down electric ave to go to a private party. and because i was pissed i wasn't attentive at all (and in this street you have to be careful and i should know better because i used to live there for more than a year). then suddenly i could sense someone approaching me from behind which made me snapp out of my trance/dream like state as and i pulled my handbag close to me (and i wasn't pissed anymore either).

but it was too late. this black young guy, good looking (levis, nikes... the lot), well dressed and kind of same age as me, told me to give him my money. there wasn't anyone else on the street. in a way i understood the situation was serious, but also didn't quite realise that i was really going to be mugged, specially not in front of the house where i used to live. 

so i started reasoning with him (sort of looked him in the eye) and told him that he shouldn't to a thing like that because it was really shite karma and it would all come back to hime one day. i told him we were the same age and he was good looking and that he should find a work...

after a while he pulled a knife and started cutting the handles off my bag (at no point was he threatening me personally with the knife though, which of course is no excuse that he wasn't one of the most evil persons i've met in my life..). it took me about another 30 seconds to realise what was really going on and that there was now  a knife involved too! i told him i wanted to hang on to my mobile phone please, and let go of the bag. he didn't anticipate the sudden move of compliance, and sort of tripped backwards so that the whole contents of my bag fell down on the street. someone else came walking down electric ave now (not that this person was helpful...). the mugger collected most things on the street, left me my mobile and house keys, and ran off....

the worst thing to loose that night was my handbag which was an inheritage from my mexican family and to loose my sort of "innocence". i'm still screaming now (plus getting an increase in heartbeat and cold sweat and the creeps) if anyone approaches me from behind!


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## EbonyLC (Oct 17, 2003)

I've read most of the posts on this thread and am slightly concerned that the focus seems to be on the race of the attacker/s.  Many of you state that your attacker was a black male.  But - unless I have overlooked them - I don't see any posts regarding muggings by white youths, and, albeit from Poster34, not many stating attacks by women, which also happens.

I'm not asking for more gorey details, and I'm not spoiling for an argument, but I think that you should all bear in mind the amount of times when you have been attacked by someone who was white or of the same race as yourselves.

At school, for example, I am sure that some of you would have been taunted/victimised by white youths.  

Also please bear in mind the times when you have been short-changed in a shop/pub/bar etc.  Whilst some of these incidences may be a genuine mistake by the person serving you (who, statistically, will probably be white), do you not consider this to be a form of mugging, but just in a different style and by a different race of crook?

And most of us may have experienced a discrepancy with our bank accounts, and, upon querying this with the manager, told that the fault has been with the bank and (in cases where things work out fairly) that we are to be credited with the amount which was lost.  Again, statistically, the majority of the people who have contact with your account are white, and perhaps this could also be classed as a mugging.  And there are many cases of stock-exchange fraudsters (statistically white male) who have mugged people.  Wasn't there that chap - Neeson (?) - who mugged many people (I understand that many of the victims were oriental - please correct me if I'm mistaken) by dealing fraudulently with their accounts?

The race of the attacker does not make the situation any scarrier - muggings are vile and are committed by all races.


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## detective-boy (Oct 17, 2003)

*Reporting muggings*



> _Originally posted by hendo _
> *It sounds as if you were mugged - because the threat wasn't verbalised doesn't mean it wasn't there.
> 
> And Kebabman you should, IMHO, report it because it helps the police to deal with muggings when they know where they occur, and also because it prevents them covering up the real extent of the problem.
> *



Hendo is right.  Just because there was no actual violence or specific verbal threat does not mean it wasn't an offence.

Robbery ("mugging" actually has no legal meaning, the offence is robbery) involves the use or threat of force (by words or actions or both) before or at the time of a theft, and in order to commit the theft.   It sounds to me like you were robbed!

The most important point is about reporting it.  I have said a few times on here that many crimes just cannot be effectively investigated as an individual occurence - if there is no physical trace evidence, if there is no CCTV, no witnesses or no hope of facial recognition.  

Where most crims fall down, however, being creatures of habit like the rest of us, is that they tend to repeat their MO (_modus operandi_).  This means the police can get ahead of the game and lay traps for them - very many successful operations are planned precisely that way.  Clearly every little bit of information is essential to make this work.

(And it's not too late to report it now either)


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## Donna Ferentes (Oct 17, 2003)

*Reporting muggings*



> _Originally posted by detective-boy _
> *Robbery ("mugging" actually has no legal meaning, the offence is robbery) *


Robbery with violence?


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## detective-boy (Oct 17, 2003)

*Definitions*



> _Originally posted by Justin _
> *Robbery with violence? *



Nope - again not a legal term.  Robbery is robbery.  By legal definition it already includes violence. 

* "A person is guilty of robbery if he steals, and immediately before, or at the time of doing so, and in order to do so, he uses force on any person or puts or seeks to put any person in fear of being then and there subjected to force"*

Section 8, Theft Act 1968

Dunno where "mugging" came from - think it was basically a media invention.  Certainly it has no legal use and is generally applied so as to include robberies and thefts (pickpocketing, snatches and the like where no specific force is used or threatened against anyone).


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## Bob (Oct 20, 2003)

Sad to say a mate of mine was mugged just off Landor road on Saturday night - unfortunately this is probably going to drive her and her flatmates out of the area when their contracts come up - she's the second person in her house to be violently attacked close to their front door in the last six months.


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## hendo (Oct 27, 2003)

Landor Road gives me a very odd feeling after dark. You know how your antennae start waving when you've lived here a bit.
Very sorry to hear of your friends experiences - but not wholly suprised.


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## hatboy (Oct 28, 2003)

I've always liked Landor Road and I miss the Greenleaf although I went there socially rather than to buy weed.

Closing it spread all the dealing all over the street and probably made more nuisance for residents.

Not that weed-dealing is a nuisance in itself, but (with) other stuff, yes.


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## davey (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *Closing it spread all the dealing all over the street and probably made more nuisance for residents.
> *



Absolutely! Dealing in Landor Rd has increased massively since the Greenleaf closed. Before that, I found the dealers on the street very polite a "no thank you" was met with a "have a good night, mate". Now, I think that a lot of the dealers have thought "lots of clueless people will be coming down here having heard that they can buy at the Greenleaf and we can sell to them" and as a result they are a lot more pushy. I still haven't had serious hassle on that road, but do have a mate who had to take in a lady who had been seriously battered on the street


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## hatboy (Oct 28, 2003)

Spot on Davey.  

I'm always suspicious that when people start crying out for this or that traditional Brixton shop or pub to close, they are people who've never been in and don't really know it properly.  A reaction against something without full knowledge - knee-jerk.

Greenleaf - knee-jerk

Green Man - knee-jerk

Harriers - knee-jerk

Know what I mean?


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## pk (Oct 28, 2003)

A friend of mine was hassled discreetly but in a threatening manner for money at the KFC bus stop at the top of Coldharbour Lane the other night - the discretion presumably to avoid CCTV attention.

My friend went to get on a bus, ignoring the furtive demands of the mugger twat.

Luckily, my friend is a kickboxer, so when the mugger cunt tried to grab his bag, he was kicked onto the road into the path of the double decker, which only just managed to stop in time.

Mugger gets up, cursing, blaming everyone else and even inciting racism (my friend is mixed race so this shit didn't wash with anyone) but he walked away.

I would have preferred it if he had been hospitalised by the bus, but then my friend would have been made late for dinner, and a good meal is more important than the destiny of some shitless mugger.


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## davey (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pk _
> *I would have preferred it if he had been hospitalised by the bus, but then my friend would have been made late for dinner, and a good meal is more important than the destiny of some shitless mugger. *



what a thoroughly unpleasant sentiment


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## pk (Oct 28, 2003)

What a thoroughly unpleasant way to treat a fellow human, by robbing him of his personal possessions.


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## hatboy (Oct 28, 2003)

"What a thoroughly unpleasant way to treat a fellow human, by robbing him of his personal possessions."

Indeed, but not as bad as wishing someone dead under a bus PK, as you did/do.

We've been here before PK. I'd really appreciate it if you kept your macho posturing out of this forum. Thanks.


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## pk (Oct 29, 2003)

Not as bad as wishing someone dead?

Er... excuse me Hatboy...

Originally posted by pk


> I would have preferred it if he had been hospitalised by the bus...



So "hospitalised" means "dead" now does it?

That's one way to slash NHS waiting times I suppose.

Macho posturing... heh heh... I live in the real world mate, that's all.

And I see the mugger as thieving scum, not the victim that needs support.

The fine line between admirably liberal attitudes, and virtually condoning violent mugging simply "because they're marginalised members of society"...


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## Donna Ferentes (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pk _
> *virtually condoning violent mugging simply "because they're marginalised members of society"... *


"Virtually" means "not", doesn't it?


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## hatboy (Oct 29, 2003)

"And I see the mugger as thieving scum, not the victim that needs support".

And I see "the mugger" as possibly one, possibly neither, possibly both. Shades of grey PK.


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## pk (Nov 1, 2003)

"Virtually" means "not", doesn't it?

I am virtually making a decision not to accept it in my life as a factor - that I should just accept as part of the "shades of grey" (whatever that means) as some kind of TAX for doing what I do, living where I do, then no; mug me, and I hope you get stabbed, or possibly worse, depending on the nature of the affliction.

Let's not fcuk about.

This isn't about people who can't afford to eat or feed families.

This is about cunts who would like to get an extra bit of gold or diamond on their hand, by being "hardcore".

You ask me to pity a mugger wearing sneakers that cost more than their monthly rent?

I guess it depends on your definition of the word mugger - to me that is some anti-social slide, geared towards defining the type of shithead that would risk pulling a blade on a man, or a woman, only to extract his or her purse.
Hell, if it's a dark alley, may as well commit the full carnal crime, eh?

I wonder how many fruitless muggings have resulted in rape, as some kind of twisted concession?

Still, the mugger/rapist... they're the victim, or "shades of grey" inbetween.... right?

Shades of grey.
You can always look the other way, eh? :tut, tut emoticon:

After all, mugging a person of their personal belongings, well... it's not that far up a step to take their personal dignity is it?

And that person would just as likely be white, as well as black, or somewhere inbetween, as well as the perpetrator, depending which estate you are talking about, so don't insult me by making this a race thing. 

This is about greed, a familiar emotion constant to most people here.

No pity, only hate, for the gutless mugger who hasn't the balls to tackle a real challenge, preferring instead to leech off people less fortunate and sadly less able to defend themselves.

My friend was shot dead at his doorstep the other day by the type of person only too willing to cross the line.

I say - you cross the line, expect some cunt to wind it around your throat one day.

It's about the Karma.

I am exorcised after that rant.

(Now please wash your hands.)

No apologies though.

Enough is enough, you treat the world correctly and those who live within it and all is good - or you can get the fuck into the back of the truck and deal with it until you can make yourself understood.

If you can't make yourself understood, well, sorry my friends, life's too short, maybe you should go the way of the Fred West.
Which is why I believe paedophiles should at least have the fucking decency to kill themselves.

Life is thoroughly unpleasant.

Do as you would be done by.

Do nothing less.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2003)

PK - are you Richard Littlejohn?

Edited cos I need to read the thread properly but yeah, PK - life IS grey, not black and white. Why do you have so much hate in you? You seem to be espousing a philosophy only worthy of small-minded petty Middle Englanders like Littlejohn and Winner. I bet you thought Death Wish was a reasonable level-headed film.


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## Lemony Ale (Nov 2, 2003)

Hatboy - have you ever been *properly* mugged?  It's all very well pontificating on the whys and wherefores when you're a 6" tall man who has the confidence to "communicate" with people.

When you're a small woman, the reality is scary.  I would love to be able to walk by myself to see friends nearby in Herne Hill or Stockwell or Clapham but I can't because it's too much of a risk.  Would you tell your sister to walk on her own, or get a cab?

Quote PK/HB: " "And I see the mugger as thieving scum, not the victim that needs support".  And I see "the mugger" as possibly one, possibly neither, possibly both."

Well, fucking good for you and your bleeding heart Hatboy.  Do you think these people are robbing and assaulting their neighbours to support their families?  Wake up, you hipper-than-thou idiot.  Just because you're taller/bigger/*whatever* than other people in Brixton doesn't negate the fact that a lot of us are scared to walk by ourselves.

PS NOT edited to add - I've lived in this neighbourhood for seven years so fucking bite me.  I'm sorry, but defending muggers really is abominable.


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## Stage Left (Nov 2, 2003)

Hatboy over the last few months i have realised that you and i have different outlooks on life and thats cool as i am sure you would be the first to say we are all different.... 

But how on earth can you justify even slightly rationalising the robbers out there on our streets, they are out there preying on those who they see as weaker than them, their tools  are always at least intimidation more often terror and sometimes weapons. 

The results of these attacks are obvious and long running far past the replacement of any stuff taken in the event itself, people are often emotionally scarred by what these idiots do to them. Of course we must not forget that frequently the threat of violence is often followed by actual physical attack sometimes with not so serious injuries but sometimes with very serious ones. 

On the 1 occasion i have been robbed it was by teenagers ( i have no idea what colour they were cause they told me that they would "cut me up " if it turned round ) and neither does it matter what colour they were , I think i would have sh*t myself equally were had i known if they were asian, white , black or orange. 
I was left thinking i was going to die if i did not do EXACTLY what they said, I endured this whole ordeal for about 5 mins before they finally took my bag and ran off laughing leaving me  crying on the pavement. 

Just to repeat that bit THEY RAN OFF LAUGHING ! it was like it was a game for them. However as a result of their "game" now 2 years on i still avoid frendale road and can't walk down a road with out looking over my shoulder every few seconds. I have stopped going out as much as before and i nearly lost my job because i ended up such a mess for about a week afterwards. 

I know this may be an extreme example but it did happen , i realise that not all happen like this but many do and the people who do them are criminals nothing more and nothing less ... 

Please do not insult the victims by treating them as anything but criminals ........ 

Thats the robbers i mean (obviously) not the victims ..... 


Sorry to go on ....


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## pooka (Nov 2, 2003)

Stage Left/Lemony Ale: Sorry to hear of your experiences. 

I'm afraid you've joined an exchange that has been recurrent since I've joined these boards. Contrary to appearances, pk isn't Travis Bickle and hatboy isn't St Francis  

(1) Someone posts about mugging

(2) pk struts his Travis Bickle Urban75 persona, spraying blood, guts and bone splinters around thread. Perhaps it's catharsis  

(3) hatboy responds with "liberal handwringing".

Thereafter the thread gets more and more polarised, and less and less constructive.

There is no question that mugging other people, especially with the threat or actuality of violence, is utterly odious and wicked criminal behaviour. It would be silly for anyone to attempt to defend it or the people who perpetrate it.

But just saying that doesn't get you very far when trying to figure out (1) how to discourage this sort of behaviour (2) how to deal with people caught for doing it.

A pk type response is understandable from someone who has just been mugged, but an approach which says:

(1)Mugging is an odious and contemptible crime;
(2)Does that mean everyone who mugs is odious and contemptible in every aspect of their life? (hatboy's point)
(3) Are they irredeemably so?

is more likely to work in the long run, than the blood and guts (however metaphorical) that pk offers. 

My suggestions would be:

(1) Increase the chance of getting caught - and if that means more CCTV, unmarked/plain clothes police patrols, estate wardens/PCSO whatever, then fine. Deal with those caught quickly and effectively, so they don't carry on mugging whilst on police bail, their cases don't fail because the CPS hasn't got the papers together, they don't show up in court and so on. (There's an interesting article by Johnathan Myerson, a Lambeth Councillor and youth magistrate  here) .
(2) Make the perpetrators face directly their victims and the communities they're degrading by their actions and do some real work to make amends.
(3) Put in some serious effort on the "tough on the causes" side of things. Lambeth has an atrocious record in providing things to engage young people's energy and enthusiasm. Being bored is no excuse for mugging, but its always going to be the case that some small proportion of kids with nothing better to do will be drawn into this stuff.


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## hatboy (Nov 2, 2003)

Will people stop saying I'm defending muggers.  I'm just saying that I try to see all people as three dimensional. You're putting words in my mouth. Show me the quotes.

Lemony - yes, I've been mugged (at knifepoint in a really nasty way too). And had my life threatened by people I think genuinely meant to do something about it several times. And I've been robbed in my own home.

Both the man who wanted to cut my throat and the ex-friend who became a crack addict and stole from me I have forgiven.

Pooka - I think your assessment of this is very fair. Thankyou.


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## editor (Nov 2, 2003)

I have *zero* sympathy for any one who uses violence or the threat of violence to intimidate innocent people.

Mugging victims can take months, if not years, to get over the fear and trauma brought on by their attackers, and can leave people feeling unsafe in their own street and neighbourhood.

For those not blessed with the necessary confidence, physical build or communication skills, muggers can make their lives an absolute misery.

While I can't go quite as far as the PK 'string 'em up' philosophy, I can't generate anything other than sheer contempt for muggers - all three dimensions of them.

They're thieves, cowards and scumbags who intimidate, frighten and attack weaker, vulnerable people, usually in gangs.


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## pooka (Nov 2, 2003)

But isn't the question "what would you do about it?".?

Is it possible to answer that without trying to figure out who these people are, how they got that way, and how they might be "redeemed"?


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## hatboy (Nov 2, 2003)

"They're thieves, cowards and scumbags who intimidate, frighten and attack weaker, vulnerable people, usually in gangs".

And they are all like that forever and always are they?

What if a 30 year old responsible, kind father was once a mugger, but now sees his wrong and is very sound morally? (not anyone you know btw).

Should I hate him? 

I'm NOT defending mugging. but people do change. Also, big subject, we should be addressing rampant materialism and the increasing inequity in society as well as merely blaming "them".


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## editor (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *And they are all like that forever and always are they? *


 Nope, but I'll reserve the right to have nothing but contempt for them while they're punching in some woman's face  to fund the latest Playstation or piece of jewelry.

I've known women who've been so terrified by muggers that they've had to move out of an area.


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## Stage Left (Nov 2, 2003)

My appologies in advance if this reply is a little fragmented as i have sat here for a while tying to phrase the answer and i can't quite get what i am trying to say down right so cut me little slack if this doesn't quite come out right 

If a person goes out and mugs someone ( terrifying then , threatening their life and generally screwing up their life for a long time to come etc ) just for the sake of a laugh/a couple of quid or whatever crappy reason that makes them a mugger .... we all make choices .... everyone one of us was a kid once ( some reading this board may still be ). When someone takes the choice to do that to some one then that is their decison and theirs alone. 
There are plenty of people in this world that had crappy unbringings but only a small number of them take that choice. To me that makes the responsibility theirs and theirs alone. 
I realise that Lambeth ( and many other councils ) do bugger all to help the kids round here and that the future may be pretty bleak for some of them. But i cannot accept that as an excuse for the behaviour of the minoroty.

Now it may be that in a few years time that the kids that had me thinking i was going to die for 5 mins just so they could have my £5.50 may have a zen like moment of elightenment ( possibly even discover a 3rd Dimension )  and go on to become productive upstanding members of the community but frankly that doesn't really help the problem. Unfortunately ON THAT DAY , AT THAT TIME , IN THAT PLACE THEY CHOSE TO PUT ME IN THAT POSITION..... They chose  to rob me.

No shades of grey there they were the robbers i was the victim end of story 

For that i cannot forgive them. Other people maybe able to rise above it and see the "bigger picture" but unfortunately i don't think i am alone in saying that i am not one of them 


_________


Pooka - I post rarely on here but i read the posts very regulary and i realise that my own tainted experience may be colouring what i am saying and i agree that i may have come over slightly agressive last night ( it was late ) and i have to say that that i agree with your 3 suggestions at the end of yr post wholeheartedly... ;-)


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## Blagsta (Nov 2, 2003)

^
its not about excusing, but understanding.  If we can understand what makes some people have so little regard for other people (and probably themselves) then maybe we can do something about stopping people turning out like that in the first place.


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## Anna Key (Nov 2, 2003)

I suspect the fear is that if you start to understand you may start to excuse or even forgive.


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## editor (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anna Key _
> *I suspect the fear is that if you start to understand you may start to excuse or even forgive. *


 Right.
Well excuse me if I have just a bit of trouble 'forgiving' the three cowardly scumbags who mugged a girl I knew at knife point while threatening to rape her and  racially abusing her all the time...

I haven't the time nor inclination to forgive pathetic shits like that. They knew exactly what they were doing and they'll probably keep doing it until they get caught or someone fights back.

Or worse.


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## Anna Key (Nov 2, 2003)

I excuse you. Your lack of forgiveness, in the circumstances, is understandable.

Who was the right wing politician who said, fairly recently, that we should all "Understand a little less, condemn a little more"?*

This remark has a similar dynamic behind it: that to _understand_ is somehow to _fail to condemn_.

I think it's possible to do both. But don't want to sound like Tony Blair.

* A certain "John Major" according to google.


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## hatboy (Nov 2, 2003)

Condemn the behavior without writing-off the individual completely I reckon.

Stage Left - perhaps you will forgive with more time. I mean there's no point hanging on to hating someone for years you probably won't even see again is there.

Just like I forgive Lemony Ale for all those insults above. (Not quite on the mark by the way, but whatever).

I think we all need to remember that these internet discussions often end up like a sort of ping pong of polarised opinions. If we met face to face and really knew eachother, subtleties of tone, nuance and humour in conversation would probably make it clear that most of us are more complicated than how we appear here.  Having said that, I do try to be the same as in reality but it's still only words on a screen isn't it and the other stuff is missing.


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## pk (Nov 2, 2003)

Either way, I would prefer to hear about a dead rapist than a rape victim.

You can draw your own conclusions about my "moral stance" but I know I would have know qualms about plunging a knife into someone if I seriously thought that he was putting the lives of nice people at risk.

I know this because of the situations I have been in.

It took three people to prevent me murdering a man who was carrying a Jif Lemon bottle filled with battery acid and threatening to maim and disfigure a group of girls I have known all my life.

I was prepared to kill that motherfucker with my bare hands, in front of police (who just watched and waited for me to do it) and were it not for my mate's dad literally sitting on my chest (he weighed in at 14 stone) I would probably be in prison right now.

And I'm sorry, you can give it all the pacifist logic you like, and I agree in principle, but EVERYONE is capable of murder, a fact that took three months at least to sink in when I was in that situation.


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## Giles (Nov 3, 2003)

Plenty of people have f*** all, or are discriminated against. Only some then decide its OK to go out robbing people.

I have no sympathy for these people. No excuses, everyone has a free choice: do I go and smash this persons face in and take their stuff, or do I not. That's it in the end.

I have often seen girls I know move, and/or write off big chunks of London as places to live because of the fear of these people. I have been intimidated and robbed, a couple of times. 

At the risk of sounding like a Daily Mail reader, this is one area where I am not a "liberal". Certain things are wrong and everyone knows they are.

God, I am glad I'm not allowed a gun....

Giles..


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## davey (Nov 3, 2003)

It is entirely up to people whether or not they forgive those who have perpetrated the horrific crimes detailed above. I have the utmost sympathy for Stage Left, pk and hatboy for their experiences.

I cannot see anyone condoning mugging on this thread, in the least. However, the state of some of our estates and streets as well as a prison population spiralling out of control are stark illustrations IMHO that if you use punishment as the *only* response to mugging you are not going to solve the problem or even, it could be argued, diminish the scale of the problem.

I do find it hard to maintain this "handwringing liberal" stance in the face of some of the stories here and my own personal experiences but I think that it is self-defeating to claim as the Tories and others have for years that levels of crime are not linked to poverty or marginalisation. 

If you come up with the knee jerk reactions such as "these people are scum" or "throw away the key" for muggers then I don't think your going to get very far - unless you have police stationed on every street all the time or all of us on cameras 24 hours a day.

People mug, I would have thought, for lots of reasons. Some for drug money, some for greed and the punishments should reflect this and perhaps be harsher but by *only* throwing people in jail without any consideration for rehabilitation or any enquiry into why people mug, you fail to even begin to solve the problem. Once you start with the attitude of muggers being "scum" this approach becomes the likeliest. Even with the worst of crimes when throwing away the key may be appropriate, it is still important to ask why it happens so much!


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## ben (Nov 3, 2003)

Some of you people on here are really scary.

I don't like the prospect of meeting any muggers in alleys, but part of me would be even more scared of meeting any of you 'f**k off scumbag knife wielding, thank-god-I-don't-have-a-gun' types. But i don't go to the Living bar, so thankfully that's not so likely.  

People need to have some sense of their own power. If mainstream life doesn't give it to us, we go to more radical extremes, the more we live in a culture of individualistic gain, the more individualistic gain by whatever means becomes an option. Your rants are just a part of your reclaiming/flexing power yourselves. Kind of like mugging the thread.

Obvioulsy mugging's a terrible thing (and yes it has happened to me at knife point when I was 16) but any of you who claim to be so in control of your own lives to make these fine rational choices are all blind. People fall through the net. You and all the other people you're talking about that don't mug, didn't. That's all.

The action is terrible, the person isn't. The point is to stop the action: no terrible action, no terrible person.

The real "scumbags", on your terms, are the white collar crooks with plenty of power (too much power) that fleece people at a distance. They're the ones who should know better. Why don't you talk about going and (not) shooting them?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 3, 2003)

Finally, some sense.
Hear hear to Davey and Ben.


PS
PK's nasty experience is proof of how violence begets violence and why we shouldn't be comfortable with any violence whether it happens to a victim or a perpetrator.


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## hatboy (Nov 3, 2003)

"Obviously mugging's a terrible thing (and yes it has happened to me at knife point when I was 16) but any of you who claim to be so in control of your own lives to make these fine rational choices are all blind. People fall through the net".

Thankyou Ben.


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## Stage Left (Nov 4, 2003)

er but surely ..... if "no terrible action , no terrible person " then surely " No terrible person no terrible action " must also be true 

Both, i am sure, highly unlikely in real life

( though i appreciate i am being bloody minded )


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## nosos (Nov 4, 2003)

> Either way, I would prefer to hear about a dead rapist than a rape victim.



Jesus fucking christ I actually agree with PK.


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## poster342002 (Nov 4, 2003)

ben said,



> The real "scumbags", on your terms, are the white collar crooks with plenty of power (too much power) that fleece people at a distance. They're the ones who should know better. Why don't you talk about going and (not) shooting them?



Why not go after BOTH the muggers AND the white collar crooks? They're just the same in mentality ("rob and plunder as much as you can get away with and sod the victim") but with a different "range of attack". Either way, what they both have in common is that they prey on those they percieve as more vulnerable and a "soft touch". Unforgiveable in both instances.

Muggers are also thieving capitalist shits - just without an army. And in some cases, armed gangs of muggers could be considered a quasi-paramilitary army who are occupying and terrorising the local population.


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## hatboy (Nov 4, 2003)

"And in some cases, armed gangs of muggers could be considered a quasi-paramilitary army who are occupying and terrorising the local population."

Where's that happening then? In America?  Sounds pretty sensationalist to me.


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## Kebabman (Nov 5, 2003)

"The real "scumbags", on your terms, are the white collar crooks with plenty of power (too much power) that fleece people at a distance"

Personally I'd rather be 'fucked up the arse' by a white collar crook who uses advertising to make me buy ugandan-made trainers, puts a 'clerical error' in my bank balance, or sells me a non ethically-correct burger at MacDonalds, than someone who sticks a knife in me for a couple of quid and a condom.

Let's put things in perspective here!


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## hatboy (Nov 5, 2003)

Today in this forum it's all arses and condoms and cocks. Can't think what's wrong with you all.


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## Structaural (Nov 5, 2003)

More scumbags.

My girlfriend cashed my salary cheque today because we needed the money quick (we were going to Amsterdam on Friday). She cashed it at Western Union in Camberwell (which is pretty discrete - no-one can see what you're doing, so we think it was a tip-off).

She got a 35 bus home, as she was getting off the bus just before Sands bar (the only time she let her guard down, she's bloody streetwise) she felt her bag being unzipped - she shouted 'no' and struggled with the guy who punched her to the ground (breaking one of her teeth in half) and ran off with the lot, the best part of 1500 quid.Our entire money for the rest of the year (she's not working and that was my severance pay after being sacked). The guy was eastern european she thinks.

So we're pretty numb and Mrs Bootylove needs lots of tender loving care, she's got scratches on her face and bruise on the side of her face, but that's fucking life in London. 

Hope he had fucking kids to feed, but I doubt it.

Going down to Camberwell tomorrow with the police to check out western union, bringing my numchucks but I doubt we'll see him again with all that. fucking fuckers.


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## ernestolynch (Nov 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kebabman _
> *"The real "scumbags", on your terms, are the white collar crooks with plenty of power (too much power) that fleece people at a distance"
> 
> Personally I'd rather be 'fucked up the arse' by a white collar crook who uses advertising to make me buy ugandan-made trainers, puts a 'clerical error' in my bank balance, or sells me a non ethically-correct burger at MacDonalds, than someone who sticks a knife in me for a couple of quid and a condom.
> ...



Fucking wanker. 

I know you're on a wind-up because no trainers are made in Uganda, no-one forces you to eat or not eat in McShite.

You'd rather be knifed for £2.

Hope it happens. You'll change, maybe get some perspective and a touch of sensitivity. Twat.

Edited to add: OOPS! Forget what I said, you are right! 

D'oh!


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## Kebabman (Nov 6, 2003)

crikey, was gonna say...!


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## hatboy (Nov 6, 2003)

BootyLove - just to say I'm really sorry to hear that. £1500! Shit! 

Anyone who jumped to the conclusion that I was condoning mugging, please re-read the thread btw.


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## Structaural (Nov 6, 2003)

Cheers, Hatboy. 

Yeah things never happen by halves with us at the moment. Gutted. My girlfriend is bruised and upset and we're fucking broke now. She'd never gone before and I'm kicking myself for not going with her (obviously). We're just a bit numb and incredulous today. Friends and family have helped us out so we're jsut chilling out today, though we visited the scene of the crime earlier so my girlfriend could go back to get her teaching application form (the original intent of the journey).

Still that's life, the money's a fucker but at least mrs booty is okay, it could have been worse. 

The reactions are interesting with friends and acquaintances, 'oh that's terrible, you've been mugged', 'HOW MUCH!', it's getting amusing leaving that bit till the end.

anyway back to administering arnica and spliffs.


edited for spelling


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## average joe (Nov 6, 2003)

Yeah - the 'how much' bit does make you smile after a while. I lost £5k in Camberwell about 6 months ago. Had just sold my house and was taking the cash out to buy something. Fuckers nicked the lot off me from outsode Lloyds about 5 minutes after i'd taken it out. Funny thing is, I reported it to the police, who bever turned up. When I collared a PC the next day he said (and I quote) "Oh yeah, we heard about that, but we thought it was a drugs deal gone wrong"

ffs - who would call the old bill to report a drugs bust gone wrong? I *hate* the police....


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## Peter Matisse (Nov 7, 2003)

Bob sorry to read about you being mugged. I'm glad you were not seriously hurt.

A lot of wise words on this thread, could I add this which might be helpful.

A few years ago I had some training in self defence. One of the things we were told is that if you are mugged you should make a lot of noise. Shout, swear, whatever you like buy try not to go quite. Get free and run as fast as you can, still making a lot of noise. As hard as it may be to have things taken material things can be replaced. Your life cannot. 

The other thing we were taught is to be aware. If you see someone who you are unsure of look at them and make sure they know you are looking. You need to pefect an "I've got your number mate!" kind of look.

Hope this is helpful.

The other thing that ran through my mind when reading about Bob's attack was the book Oliver Twist. You know Fagin and his gang of child pickpockets.

Oh and could I also add, as has been said before, please report these things to the police. Recently I have become a Member of the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth, Pooka is also a member. The police use crime statistics to measure and plan how they are going to police Lambeth. If you do not report things you do not get to understand patterns of crime in the Borough, and we in the group cannot put pressure on the police to make improvements. I know it can be a hassle, but it is important.


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## hatboy (Nov 7, 2003)

Average Joe said:

"I lost £5k in Camberwell about 6 months ago"

Bloody hell!  You're the right guy to mug aren't you. They'd be lucky to find a fiver on me! Unbelievable.


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## YojimboUK (Nov 7, 2003)

To second what M Matisse said -- when I was mugged three years ago the police were very helpful indeed. The little toerags wot dun it didn't actually get anything off me but they did smash my face up pretty badly, and apart from going through photo-books of suspects and all the rest of that, the police put me in touch with the Criminal Injury Compensation Authority (http://www.cica.gov.uk). 

Basically if you suffer a reasonably serious physical injury through crime, you can apply for financial compensation. And while the £2k I got didn't protect me from the several months of depression and flashbacks that followed, it did cushion the blow a bit.

(Bloody hell, the third anniversary of it happening passed last week and I didn't notice. I must be over it.)


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## average joe (Nov 10, 2003)

Hatboy - I *was* the right guy to mug! Not any more, the days of those kind of bucks are well over....


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## Structaural (Nov 12, 2003)

Average Joe: yeah, the cops thought exactly the same thing in this case. 'What does your boyfriend do for a living?' my dealing days are long gone.

they believed her in the end though.

YojimboUK: We're going to check out victim support, even if we only get a bit of cash to put towards mrs booty's broken tooth.


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## Bob (Nov 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Peter Matisse _
> *Bob sorry to read about you being mugged. I'm glad you were not seriously hurt.
> 
> A lot of wise words on this thread, could I add this which might be helpful.
> ...



Ta for that. My wise words on self defence are the following (incidentally I do kickboxing as a hobby which means being hit is a lot less traumatic!):
1. Run away
2. Run away
3. If you really have no option shout a lot, poke them in the eye then run away. Poking people in the eye works on everyone however big they are - and is enormously psychologically disorientating for anyone since it hurts regardless of your size.

Sorry to hear about your experiences Bootylove - they sound bloody awful.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bob _*
> 1. Run away
> 2. Run away
> 3. If you really have no option shout a lot, poke them in the eye then run away.
> *



Spot on!!!  

These last most recent posts are really frightening!!! 


I must have been so lucky over the years (and I drink in Camberwell a lot) ... is it because I look scruffy and skint???  

Major sympathies to those who've been robbed of a little or a lot. 

And particular sympathies to BootyLove ...


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## Structaural (Nov 17, 2003)

Thanks Wow.

What I've noticed about this thread is the amount of violence against women. That seems to be a growing trend more than the mugging (which is endemic in every major city since the dark ages). It used to be a relatively remote happening when I was growing up (I started in Camberwell). It was usually the teenage boys who were mugged.
In fact when mrs booty left that morning she said 'don't worry woman never get mugged' - famous last words. And she didn't look rich by a long shot (her choice of dress being old skool hip-hop cum crustie).
I guess it incenses me because I've done Chinese Boxing for about 8 years (just up the road at Addington Sq.) and haven't been (successfully) mugged in about the same amount of time...  To come home and see your woman bleeding from her mouth and a battered face is just too much sometimes.

Anyway we're over it now, shit happens.


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## hatboy (Nov 17, 2003)

Once again I'd also like to add big hugs and kisses to Mr and Mrs BootyLove.


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