# Let Our Kids be Kids - 3 May 2016: Primary School Kids to strike against SATS



## eoin_k (Apr 28, 2016)

Let Our Kids Be Kids

A mass day of absence has been called for 3 May 2016 against Year 2 SATS and against government plans to make all schools academies.

Anyone else getting involved?


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Apr 28, 2016)

Tomorrow, I'll be trying (probably in vain) to shift some work commitments so I can take our little one out of school next week.  I might even work Monday to free up Tuesday.  He's hating school at the moment and his teacher is hating teaching the shit they've been handed down.  Gove and Morgan have taken all the joy out of learning.


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 29, 2016)

What a good idea - but I wonder if childcare issues will mean poor uptake.  


I wish more parents would just refuse to let their kids participate in primary age testing.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 29, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> What a good idea - but I wonder if childcare issues will mean poor uptake.
> 
> 
> I wish more parents would just refuse to let their kids participate in primary age testing.


A naive non-parent asks: if it's a mass-organised thing could parents organise childcare together? Like on a school trip, a few parents volunteer to care for multiple children?

I guess it might be possible for some but not most?

My brother is a primary school teacher but is not a fan of striking, doesn't like the idea of kids missing classes (we've gone round in circles on this a number of times...); will be interesting to hear his take on this.


----------



## redchris (Apr 29, 2016)

I'm all for trying to raise standards in education but the new curriculum and year 2 SATS tests are absolutely ridiculous. Kids are being asked to learn content 9-12 months ahead of the previous year and I can literally see the enthusiasm for learning draining out of my 6 year old lad. Add to that the manner in which the new curriculum has been introduced and I have the utmost sympathy for teachers.  However, I don't agree that taking children out of school for the day next Tuesday is the right course of action.


----------



## wiskey (Apr 29, 2016)

There's a big 'we're not at school' picnic being organised in Bristol. 

I read up on the kids strike but it seemed a bit arbitrary - he's mostly done his sats already, it's not like they are all sitting them on the same day like the KS2 ones.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

I remember by daughter's year 2 teacher telling me they were at their wits end with the stats and that it's overly stressful. Some of the words in the spelling tests didn't even exist! It's totally outrageous that children this young should be tested under pressure like this, tested st all for that matter. 

I will definately support a mass absence on 3rd.


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 29, 2016)

redchris said:


> I'm all for trying to raise standards in education but the new curriculum and year 2 SATS tests are absolutely ridiculous. Kids are being asked to learn content 9-12 months ahead of the previous year and I can literally see the enthusiasm for learning draining out of my 6 year old lad. Add to that the manner in which the new curriculum has been introduced and I have the utmost sympathy for teachers.  However, I don't agree that taking children out of school for the day next Tuesday is the right course of action.


Why not?


----------



## redchris (Apr 29, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> Why not?


I just don't see what taking kids out of school for one day achieves. I think a more coordinated effort led by the teaching staff would make a louder noise and carry more weight.  Our school head has spent the last 12 months rightly complaining about the curriculum change and ill thought out way in which the SATS have been introduced yet tells parents that the school will not support them in taking their kids out for the day next week which I find disappointing.


----------



## wiskey (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> I remember by daughter's year 2 teacher telling me they were at their wits end with the stats and that it's overly stressful. Some of the words in the spelling tests didn't even exist! It's totally outrageous that children this young should be tested under pressure like this, tested st all for that matter.
> 
> I will definately support a mass absence on 3rd.


Using words which don't exist is part of the Y1 tests werv did last year, he had to work out which ones were words and which were nonsense


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2016)

I fully support this idea, however I'd prefer it to be more properly labelled as a Parents' action - not a kids' strike. But for now that's just a quibble.


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 29, 2016)

Won't taking the kids out of school for the day and telling them that they are striking encourage them to do it again?

For this reason alone I'm massively against a name change or switching to an alternative action.

Teaching primary-school children how to go on strike constitutes a huge improvement in educational standards.


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 29, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Using words which don't exist is part of the Y1 tests werv did last year, he had to work out which ones were words and which were nonsense


I so wish this wasn't a spelling test.


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Won't taking the kids out of school for the day and telling them that they are striking encourage them to do it again?
> 
> For this reason alone I'm massively against a name change or switching to an alternative action.
> 
> Teaching primary-school children how to go on strike constitutes a huge improvement in educational standards.



My main point is that this is not the decision of the kids, its the parents choosing to pull their kids out. And, at this point in time, action by parents, as parents, will carry some weight as the gov't (indeed successive gov'ts) are trying desperately to pitch parents against teachers - especially regarding teachers' strikes.


----------



## redchris (Apr 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> My main point is that this is not the decision of the kids, its the parents choosing to pull their kids out. And, at this point in time, action by parents, as parents, will carry some weight as the gov't (indeed successive gov'ts) are trying desperately to pitch parents against teachers - especially regarding teachers' strikes.



Which is why I think some unified action by parents ans teachers together which leaves the kids out of it is the best way forward.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> My main point is that this is not the decision of the kids, its the parents choosing to pull their kids out. And, at this point in time, action by parents, as parents, will carry some weight as the gov't (indeed successive gov'ts) are trying desperately to pitch parents against teachers - especially regarding teachers' strikes.


Kids if a certain age will get an understanding of striking and the reasons about it and how empowering it is. I think that is what was meant by stuff_it. 

I've just raised the question on our PTA page and it's getting a discussion moving. Seems there are parents taking kids out that day but nothing has been made official. I'm hoping to gather support there for it.


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Kids if a certain age will get an understanding of striking and the reasons about it and how empowering it is. I think that is what was meant by stuff_it.



Yeah. 

All of which is valid. 

But I'm not sure a Year 2 child is at a point where they can take an informed decision to strike though. 

They might, some might, some might not.

However this isn't that. Its a parental decision. And as that, in this context, that is powerful enough.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

I think what would be more powerful is if year 2 parents refused to let their children sit for the SATS. I wish I could have done that. What on earth do the results prove anyway?!


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2016)

Unfortunately lots of parents have bought into the whole testing/league tables/parental choice paradigm. It's intensely damaging to education and helps enable the gov't to push thru' its privatisation agenda.

If there was a big kick back by parents against testing/league tables/parental choice blah blah blah it could be really positive.

I hope this "strike" is evidence of this.


----------



## wiskey (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> I think what would be more powerful is if year 2 parents refused to let their children sit for the SATS. I wish I could have done that. What on earth do the results prove anyway?!



This is where I fall down on the whole issue - he's already sat the tests ... taking him out on Tuesday doesn't seem as effective as him missing the actual SATS (but we/the kids don't get told when they will be)


----------



## trashpony (Apr 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> Unfortunately lots of parents have bought into the whole testing/league tables/parental choice paradigm. It's intensely damaging to education and helps enable the gov't to push thru' its privatisation agenda.
> 
> If there was a big kick back by parents against testing/league tables/parental choice blah blah blah it could be really positive.
> 
> I hope this "strike" is evidence of this.


Have they? I don't know a single parent who thinks KS1 testing is anything other than a steaming pile of shit


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Have they? I don't know a single parent who thinks KS1 testing is anything other than a steaming pile of shit



I know a fair few "aspirational" parents who whilst they may not be proclaiming support for testing are certainly full on into using the results of these tests to judge schools as a basis for exercising their right to choose...


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> Unfortunately lots of parents have bought into the whole testing/league tables/parental choice paradigm. It's intensely damaging to education and helps enable the gov't to push thru' its privatisation agenda.
> 
> If there was a big kick back by parents against testing/league tables/parental choice blah blah blah it could be really positive.
> 
> I hope this "strike" is evidence of this.


totally this.  hated it when i was a kid and hate it now...massively anti all of this forced bullshit.  I think it's as simple as following more of a Scandi idea of education...it really does work there.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

wiskey said:


> This is where I fall down on the whole issue - he's already sat the tests ... taking him out on Tuesday doesn't seem as effective as him missing the actual SATS (but we/the kids don't get told when they will be)


So has my daughter but it's not just about the SATS, it's about the restriction in teaching generally and about further pointless, testing that does nothing but stress children out.


----------



## trashpony (Apr 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> I know a fair few "aspirational" parents who whilst they may not be proclaiming support for testing are certainly full on into using the results of these tests to judge schools as a basis for exercising their right to choose...


TBH, I can sort of understand why people do that - how else do you judge how good a school is? Unless you know people who's kids attend (and I think that's far better than any Ofsted report or test), you go for a look around and the kids and teachers smile and they all say the right things. They all look the same. 

At my son's school, apparently the whole of year 6 has been invited in to free breakfast club because the head is worried that some kids aren't having breakfast (she'd be right). It's pretty cynical to care about the kids' nutritional needs just during SATs IMO but we didn't get the highest results in the district last year so she's keen to fix that


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 29, 2016)

trashpony said:


> At my son's school, apparently the whole of year 6 has been invited in to free breakfast club because the head is worried that some kids aren't having breakfast (she'd be right). It's pretty cynical to care about the kids' nutritional needs just during SATs IMO but we didn't get the highest results in the district last year so she's keen to fix that


A lot (most?) primaries do breakfast for Y6 during SATs week - apart from feeding them, it makes sure they're at school on time, ready to be tested...


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Some of the words in the spelling tests didn't even exist!.





wiskey said:


> Using words which don't exist is part of the Y1 tests werv did last year, he had to work out which ones were words and which were nonsense


Hence the bizarre situation of walking into a Y1/2 class to see children being 'taught' words that don't exist... Christ, saying to a Y4/5 yo ,'is 'glerg' a real word?' 'Erm in my limited experience of all the words there are, can I say possibly?'


----------



## trashpony (Apr 29, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> A lot (most?) primaries do breakfast for Y6 during SATs week - apart from feeding them, it makes sure they're at school on time, ready to be tested...


God, really? Urgh


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> Hence the bizarre situation of walking into a Y1/2 class to see children being 'taught' words that don't exist... Christ, saying to a Y4/5 yo ,'is 'glerg' a real word?' 'Erm in my limited experience of all the words there are, can I say possibly?'



I was in an SEN lecture the other week looking at reading assessments and this stuff came up. There was a rationale behind it, but I can't remember (concisely) what it was, not really my area at all.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 29, 2016)

Heads must decide how to record ‘protest’ pupil absences on May 3


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Heads must decide how to record ‘protest’ pupil absences on May 3


I'm going to speak to my school about it this afternoon. Imagine if the council fined parents keeping their children off! I for one would not pay.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> I'm going to speak to my school about it this afternoon. Imagine if the council fined parents keeping their children off! I for one would not pay.


Psychic Greebo predicts an epidemic of 24 hour tummy bugs.


----------



## Thora (Apr 29, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Using words which don't exist is part of the Y1 tests werv did last year, he had to work out which ones were words and which were nonsense





Sweet FA said:


> Hence the bizarre situation of walking into a Y1/2 class to see children being 'taught' words that don't exist... Christ, saying to a Y4/5 yo ,'is 'glerg' a real word?' 'Erm in my limited experience of all the words there are, can I say possibly?'





chilango said:


> I was in an SEN lecture the other week looking at reading assessments and this stuff came up. There was a rationale behind it, but I can't remember (concisely) what it was, not really my area at all.


The children are told which words are real and which are nonsense, they don't have to guess/work it out.  They don't have to be taught or learn any words that don't exist either.

The idea of using fake words is that they are going to be words that the child won't recognise.  If you want to find out if a 6yo knows what sound igh represents, you can do that by asking them to read "kighl" because asking them to read "night" might just tell you they recognise the word night.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 29, 2016)

Thora said:


> The children are told which words are real and which are nonsense, they don't have to guess/work it out.  They don't have to be taught or learn any words that don't exist either.
> 
> The idea of using fake words is that they are going to be words that the child won't recognise.  If you want to find out if a 6yo knows what sound igh represents, you can do that by asking them to read "kighl" because asking them to read "night" might just tell you they recognise the word night.


I know what's supposed to happen & why  

I also know what happens in practice (in some schools, ime etc); displays with nonsense words on, children sounding out made up words. If you want to find out if a 6yo knows what sound igh represents, you could give them unfamiliar but real words containing that trigraph. Expansion of vocabulary & diagnostic all in one hit.


----------



## Thora (Apr 29, 2016)

Much easier to use a fake word than try to find enough real words that no child will have come across before.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 29, 2016)

Thora said:


> Much easier to use a fake word


That's good then. As long as children can decode the shit out of everything, score highly on decoding tests then they'll be ace decoders. If they can't decode 'kighl' but can only recognise the word 'night' then what the fuck are they thinking? 

I'm being facetious; I think you're in the business (?) so you know what works. Like anything though, it can be a very blunt instrument. I know children who've come out of KS1, know their sounds & appear to read fairly fluently but have very little understanding of what they're reading.


----------



## Thora (Apr 29, 2016)

Well yes, all it is checking is phonic knowledge/decoding skills.  It isn't a reading test.  I don't see any problem with nonsense words though.


----------



## Thora (Apr 29, 2016)

I think the issue people have with the phonics check is that results are reported and it is used to assess schools' performance.  Yet the detail that gets complained about is nonsense words, which seems completely irrelevant to me.  Teachers screen children's phonics knowledge regularly from the beginning of Reception.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 29, 2016)

It's not the only issue people have with the phonics check or phonics teaching generally.


----------



## clicker (Apr 29, 2016)

Teenager is doing GCSE sociology at the moment and has just told me that UK children are already the 'most tested in Europe'.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 29, 2016)

Yes, we score 10/10 for testing our children. This means we're the best or something.


----------



## Thora (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> I'm going to speak to my school about it this afternoon. Imagine if the council fined parents keeping their children off! I for one would not pay.


In my LA you only get fined if you have more than 8 half days off in a 12 week period.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Psychic Greebo predicts an epidemic of 24 hour tummy bugs.


Doesn't that go against the whole point of the protest? A strike is a strike.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

Together we are stronger


----------



## Maharani (Apr 29, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Together we are stronger


The typo is a bit  but I hear her.


----------



## eoin_k (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> Doesn't that go against the whole point of the protest? A strike is a strike.



If enough families took such action it would send a clear enough message, whether or not some of them pulled a mass sickie rather than making their actions more accountable/explicit. The people behind the campaign have had the sense to provide sample letters for people to express support for the campaign if they decide not to participate, as well as ones to explain their actions to the school if they decide to do so. Anything that builds momentum has to be a good thing since it is starting from close to zero.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2016)

wiskey said:


> This is where I fall down on the whole issue - he's already sat the tests ... taking him out on Tuesday doesn't seem as effective as him missing the actual SATS (but we/the kids don't get told when they will be)



If you think the year 2 SATS are bad you should see what's coming up in year 6.  Also, this protest is not just about year 2 SATS anyway.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 29, 2016)

The SATS boycott is definitely gathering pace in Brighton! More schools telling the Labour council to fuck off - you will not fine us 60 quid for our children's non attendance!


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2016)

Thora said:


> In my LA you only get fined if you have more than 8 half days off in a 12 week period.



Maharani similarly for us it's 8 or more within the previous ten week period.  This is not just "days off" though - it's specifically unauthorised absences.  I think that the school may not record Tuesday absences in this way.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The SATS boycott is definitely gathering pace in Brighton! More schools telling the Labour council to fuck off - you will not fine us 60 quid for our children's non-attendance!



Schools aren't served penalty notices - parents/guardians are served them and not for a single day (2 session)'s absence.  Also penalties are handed out for "unauthorised absences" - not sickness or other authorised reasons.  So no one should be fined for Tuesday's strike unless is is the latest in a string of unauthorised absences in a specific period of time (10 or 12 weeks or so).

Good that it's gathering pace in Brighton.  It's the front page story in The Times tomorrow morning so there is definitely momentum.


----------



## Thora (Apr 29, 2016)

I hadn't really thought about whether to do this or not, I had assumed it was just for Year 2 children.  I am 99.9% sure no other parent at my kid's school will 'strike' though, or likely has even heard/thought about it.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2016)

I think there will not be lots of people striking - most people have to work on that day and so I think the impact will be small - probably the government don't give a shit.  However, there is a sense that momentum is growing around this issue and to quote Ghandi.. 'You may never know what results come of your actions, but if you do nothing, there will be no results.'  I just feel, personally, that I don't want to just let them get away with all these plans without putting up a bit of a fight.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2016)

I was also balloted today by NUT to strike.


----------



## wiskey (Apr 30, 2016)

gaijingirl said:


> If you think the year 2 SATS are bad you should see what's coming up in year 6.  Also, this protest is not just about year 2 SATS anyway.



I realise that, but the Y2 ones are the ones affecting us


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 30, 2016)

wiskey said:


> I realise that, but the Y2 ones are the ones affecting us



All these other issues will affect you too.  My children are in year 1 and nursery, but will both go on to year 2 and eventually year 6.

However, I know that you know this - so I think we must be talking at cross-purposes.  So I'm confused now ... and tired.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 30, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> What a good idea - but I wonder if childcare issues will mean poor uptake.


That was my first thought... I heard of it yesterday, but just thought 'A month's notice would have been better for that!' in terms of childcare. No way I can do it as (like all Jewish schools) we've just finished our holidays and the 3rd is our first day back, with us already having used lots of days off and childcare favours!


----------



## wiskey (Apr 30, 2016)

Did a straw poll on my FB group (all Y2 parents)- most people aren't going to get involved, no childcare mainly, followed by no belief it will do anything, followed by 'nobody else is doing it'. 

However having read all the LOKBK info I'm becoming more inclined to keep werv off.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 30, 2016)

redchris said:


> Which is why I think some unified action by parents ans teachers together which leaves the kids out of it is the best way forward.


The fact teachers unions  didn't flinch over uni fees , both in 2010 and when labour brought them in makes me feel the chances of them acting over anything other than pay is highly unlikely.


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 30, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The fact teachers unions  didn't flinch over uni fees , both in 2010 and when labour brought them in makes me feel the chances of them acting over anything other than pay is highly unlikely.


What should we have done?


----------



## trashpony (Apr 30, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Did a straw poll on my FB group (all Y2 parents)- most people aren't going to get involved, no childcare mainly, followed by no belief it will do anything, followed by 'nobody else is doing it'.
> 
> However having read all the LOKBK info I'm becoming more inclined to keep werv off.


I've announced on fb that I'm keeping E off and why. One of my friends (who's a trained teacher and works as a TA at his school) has 'liked' the post but dunno if she's keeping her kids off (her youngest is in yr 2).


----------



## ska invita (Apr 30, 2016)

Some teachers walked out in solidarity but it wasn't a union action


----------



## wiskey (May 1, 2016)

> The other thing, which is minor to me but huge to X, is his 100% attendance record. If he stays at 100% he gets an award and gift at the end of the year. He really hates to have any time off and so far he has had none at all.
> I would fully support the teachers striking.



^^^ my friends response when asked if they will strike... I hate attendance awards anyway and that made me mad.

So far of 30 people who've replied I'm the only one considering it.

Quite a few are teachers and 'it would be frowned upon if I took my children out'  is a theme.

But mostly they just think it's a waste of time.


----------



## kenny g (May 1, 2016)

Considering the number of shit has been teachers stalking the classrooms for so many years it is difficult to.know what should havebeen done other than tests to bring standards up. As with so many things it looks they have probably served their purpose and are nowbeing subverted in a shockingly unprofessional manner by some teachers. One of the children in our family has year 6 SATS and is pretty relaxed. Tried not to make an issue out of it at home. It is less than a week after all. If she was being taught shite though I would arrange a chat with the Head pronto.


----------



## Thora (May 1, 2016)

If the government wants testing and performance related pay then it's pretty inevitable that teachers are going to make a big deal about SATS.

Anyway there aren't any has been teachers any more, they're all about 23.  The Headteacher at my school has only taught for 6 years and she's the longest serving member of teaching staff at the school.


----------



## Thora (May 1, 2016)

I'm going to keep my son at home, I hope he's not too upset about attendance.  Luckily his school do attendance awards weekly for classes/termly for individuals rather than yearly so he still gets lots of certificates and non-uniform days


----------



## eoin_k (May 1, 2016)

gaijingirl said:


> I think there will not be *lots* of people striking - most people have to work on that day and so I think the impact will be small - probably the government don't give a shit.  However, there is a sense that momentum is growing around this issue and to quote Ghandi.. 'You may never know what results come of your actions, but if you do nothing, there will be no results.'  I just feel, personally, that I don't want to just let them get away with all these plans without putting up a bit of a fight.



Since the main social function of schools is to provide state-funded childcare so adults can work, it isn't realistic to expect *most* parents to get involved. That said this seems to have already gained *lots* of support given that a handful of people have organised it and provided ridiculously short notice. I can see plenty of people getting involved whose parents are unemployed, self-employed, carers, part-time workers or playground friends of any of the above (who could potentially provide some of them with childcare/playdates for the day). All of which could make for interesting conversations -like this one?- about work, education, non-paid work, taking political action... The organisers have included a sample letter on the website for parents to send in to school if they support the campaign, but aren't taking action on the day themselves, which suggests an awareness of the issues.


----------



## gaijingirl (May 1, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Since the main social function of schools is to provide state-funded childcare so adults can work, it isn't realistic to expect *most* parents to get involved. That said this seems to have already gained *lots* of support given that a handful of people have organised it and provided ridiculously short notice. I can see plenty of people getting involved whose parents are unemployed, self-employed, carers, part-time workers or playground friends of any of the above (who could potentially provide some of them with childcare/playdates for the day). All of which could make for interesting conversations -like this one?- about work, education, non-paid work, taking political action... The organisers have included a sample letter on the website for parents to send in to school if they support the campaign, but aren't taking action on the day themselves, which suggests an awareness of the issues.



yes - I agree with all of the above - especially the state-funded childcare statement.  I have a number of friends sending in the letter who can't make it themselves but wish it to be known that they support the action.


----------



## wiskey (May 1, 2016)

Thora said:


> I'm going to keep my son at home, I hope he's not too upset about attendance.  Luckily his school do attendance awards weekly for classes/termly for individuals rather than yearly so he still gets lots of certificates and non-uniform days



I'm going to talk to werv, if he wants to stay off shall we do something?


----------



## gaijingirl (May 1, 2016)

There is a small group of us locally and we have arranged some group-learning in the park and the velodrome have offered us a free cycling lesson in the afternoon.  The local home-ed maths leader also offered us to come and join in but sadly his session is out of our area on that day and too far to travel to. I'm quite excited now.


----------



## Thora (May 1, 2016)

wiskey said:


> I'm going to talk to werv, if he wants to stay off shall we do something?


I think we'll probably not be in Bristol unfortunately.


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2016)

I'm doing proper lesson plans for the day. I really don't want Elliot to see this as a skive


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 2, 2016)

gaijingirl said:


> Schools aren't served penalty notices - parents/guardians are served them and not for a single day (2 session)'s absence.  Also penalties are handed out for "unauthorised absences" - not sickness or other authorised reasons.  So no one should be fined for Tuesday's strike unless is is the latest in a string of unauthorised absences in a specific period of time (10 or 12 weeks or so).



This is not a national policy, though.
I'm in Brighton and we _do_ get penalty notices for single days of unauthorised absence.
Also, after direction from the council the schools here _will_ be marking any absences tomorrow as unauthorised but most of them have stated that they will not then be issuing penalty notices - so it's very clear that most of the schools are openly supporting the action


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

sheothebudworths said:


> This is not a national policy, though.
> I'm in Brighton and we _do_ get penalty notices for single days of unauthorised absence.
> Also, after direction from the council the schools here _will_ be marking any absences tomorrow as unauthorised but most of them have stated that they will not then be issuing penalty notices - so it's very clear that most of the schools are openly supporting the action



Yes I am aware of that, having worked across different boroughs as a teacher and having had my pay progression linked to my students' attendance. As you say - the policy changes from council to council (which is why I alerted Maharani to the policy in the area where we both live, as opposed to Thora's) - the main point I was making is that it's not the _schools_ who are fined but the parents/carers. 

I hadn't, however, realised that Brighton will give penalties for 2 sessions's unauthorised absence.  That seems incredible!  The Brighton and Hove council website, in fact, states that it will be given for 4 of more sessions in a term (which equates to 2 days) although it is (deliberately - I expect) vague.  So I would definitely contest a fine if one were given for a singles day's absence (I appreciate that you say this is unlikely to happen on this occasion due to supportive schools).  Fixed Penalty Notices (FPN) | Brighton & Hove City Council

It is, indeed, murky water and people should be checking their own council websites and talking to their schools if they are worried about FPNs.


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I'm doing proper lesson plans for the day. I really don't want Elliot to see this as a skive



Good luck.  I know you didn't mean it to sound this way, but I'd like to point out, in case anyone has that impression, that O will not be skiving.  I'm not going to bore everyone with detailed plans from us, but rest-assured she will definitely be learning!  

I spend hours and hours making lesson plans, writing schemes of work etc and don't feel they are necessarily a guarantee of learning taking place, nor the absence of them a barrier to learning.  So she won't be hearing the lesson objectives as the start, or starters, plenaries, pit-stops, extension work, literacy, numeracy and other myriad things that we are expected to cram into a lesson plan.  Things that change regularly depending on the current whim of oftentimes non-educationalist leaders with no evidence to support their ideas.  (this rant is not directed at you but a wider rant about current trends in education - I can absolutely bet that Elliot is going to have a fantastic day with you learning loads).


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 2, 2016)

The four sessions seems to relate to 'poor attendance' - but for eg taking a single day off for a holiday will incur a fine at at least some of the schools here.

ETA - Had only responded to your original post there cos it was a reply to Mr.Bishie who'd been talking specifically about Brighton schools, iyswim!


----------



## Maharani (May 2, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Did a straw poll on my FB group (all Y2 parents)- most people aren't going to get involved, no childcare mainly, followed by no belief it will do anything, followed by 'nobody else is doing it'.
> 
> However having read all the LOKBK info I'm becoming more inclined to keep werv off.


I got lots of this too.


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2016)

gaijingirl said:


> Good luck.  I know you didn't mean it to sound this way, but I'd like to point out, in case anyone has that impression, that O will not be skiving.  I'm not going to bore everyone with detailed plans from us, but rest-assured she will definitely be learning!
> 
> I spend hours and hours making lesson plans, writing schemes of work etc and don't feel they are necessarily a guarantee of learning taking place, nor the absence of them a barrier to learning.  So she won't be hearing the lesson objectives as the start, or starters, plenaries, pit-stops, extension work, literacy, numeracy and other myriad things that we are expected to cram into a lesson plan.  Things that change regularly depending on the current whim of oftentimes non-educationalist leaders with no evidence to support their ideas.  (this rant is not directed at you but a wider rant about current trends in education - I can absolutely bet that Elliot is going to have a fantastic day with you learning loads).


Oh gosh no, I didn't mean that at all! You're a proper teacher and know what you're doing. I don't so I've got some help from TES  

We're going to do some drama/imaginative stuff about the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (and a bit of reading comprehension because I have to do some work in the morning) and then we're going to talk about marine foodchains and make a mobile using stuff we find on the beach  

I'm quite looking forward to it


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Oh gosh no, I didn't mean that at all! You're a proper teacher and know what you're doing. I don't so I've got some help from TES
> 
> We're going to do some drama/imaginative stuff about the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (and a bit of reading comprehension because I have to do some work in the morning) and then we're going to talk about marine foodchains and make a mobile using stuff we find on the beach
> 
> I'm quite looking forward to it



To be honest - proper teachers sometimes get help from TES too... 

... and actually I kind of want to come to your school tomorrow - it sounds amazing!


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

sheothebudworths said:


> The four sessions seems to relate to 'poor attendance' - but for eg taking a single day off for a holiday will incur a fine at at least some of the schools here.
> 
> ETA - Had only responded to your original post there cos it was a reply to Mr.Bishie who'd been talking specifically about Brighton schools, iyswim!



It's all in how it's logged tbh.  There's a difference (as you will see on the council site) in authorised/unauthorised/holiday/medical etc.  If you call and say you're keeping your child off school to go on holiday and the school hasn't authorised that, then the council site could be read to mean you'll get a fine for a single day.  Again, I would, personally, contest that.  Actually I wouldn't say we were on holiday if it were a single day anyway!  There have been a few cases recently of parents fighting their ground in court over this and the courts have come down on the parents' side.  

Schools also have the option to log it as "educated offsite" - which many schools do now when they exclude students but don't want the exclusion to show up in their attendance record.  Some festivals will provide on-site schools so that parents can bring childen to the festival but also provide SOW and lesson plans to show that their children have been learning.

As I say - it's all murky water.

So, as you say, I think very few schools will be likely to log children as "unauthorised absence" in this case.  However, as is now becoming my mantra - Talk to the school first!


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

What is pleasing is the amount of publicity this protest is getting - quite disproportionate to the numbers striking.  It was on the front page of the Times yesterday, it's been in all the other major papers as far as I can tell.  LBC spoke about it at length yesterday.  "The Wright Stuff" has been running with it.  The BBC and other news sources are all reporting it.  There are letters of protest and support being published from some big names.  I guess it's a new level/kind of protest and it's all adding up to a lot of discontent nationally about educational policies at the moment.


----------



## Thora (May 2, 2016)

We're just going to skive.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 2, 2016)

gaijingirl said:


> It's all in how it's logged tbh.  There's a difference (as you will see on the council site) in authorised/unauthorised/holiday/medical etc.  If you call and say you're keeping your child off school to go on holiday and the school hasn't authorised that, then the council site could be read to mean you'll get a fine for a single day.  Again, I would, personally, contest that.  Actually I wouldn't say we were on holiday if it were a single day anyway!  There have been a few cases recently of parents fighting their ground in court over this and the courts have come down on the parents' side.
> 
> Schools also have the option to log it as "educated offsite" - which many schools do now when they exclude students but don't want the exclusion to show up in their attendance record.  Some festivals will provide on-site schools so that parents can bring childen to the festival but also provide SOW and lesson plans to show that their children have been learning.
> 
> ...



My daughter's school has a rigid policy of recording ALL holidays during term time as unauthorised (whether you formally request it or not) and fining for them, too.
Personally, next time I do it I will just lie  - but that seems ridiculous in itself, eh - wtf do they expect is going to happen?!

And tbc, all of the kids in Brighton who miss school tomorrow due to the strike WILL be recorded as taking unauthorised absence, as instructed by the council - but beyond that the schools are then taking individual decisions as to whether they'll issue fines or not and most seem not to be  (but the very fact that they're indicating this only goes to show that as a general rule the schools here WILL fine for a single day).


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2016)

Thora said:


> We're just going to skive.




I feel obliged to follow the 'fun learning' thing. Plus every now and then I toy with the idea of home ed so this will be good practice to see if we want to kill one another by lunchtime


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

sheothebudworths said:


> My daughter's school has a rigid policy of recording ALL holidays during term time as unauthorised (whether you formally request it or not) and fining for them, too.
> Personally, next time I do it I will just lie  - but that seems ridiculous in itself, eh - wtf do they expect is going to happen?!



As far as I know most, if not all schools, will mark holidays during term time as unauthorised - because they won't/can't authorise them.  Certainly in my time teaching there has been a massive change towards that.  I teach many children whose parents request long periods off to take them back to their parents' home country - usually the Carribean or similarly long-haul.  They used to be allowed to go when I first started teaching but not anymore. When it comes to short periods off most people lie - or I have heard that some people work out that the amount they will pay in fines is offset by the savings they make by taking the holiday during term time.  

I was very honest with my daughter's school about a one day absence being due to going away on the Friday.  I spoke to a senior member of staff (I'm a bad liar) and he told me to call in sick.


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2016)

It's just been on Radio 4 news!

One of my friends went away for 2 weeks over October half term because it was so much cheaper. The head teacher said that she would have to fine them but hoped they'd have a lovely time. 

I lied when I took E out of school 2 days before Easter hols.


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The fact teachers unions  didn't flinch over uni fees , both in 2010 and when labour brought them in makes me feel the chances of them acting over anything other than pay is highly unlikely.



NUT will ballot for strike action over academy plans | Schools Week

There is a limit as to what teaching unions can strike over.  My understanding is that it has to be linked to pay, terms and conditions in order for it to be legal.  (disclaimer - I am not a legal eagle so this is my loose understanding).  I have just been balloted to strike this summer by the NUT which is worded as being over pay, terms and conditions but in fact, it is in protest to the forced academisation plans.  I don't think we can just legally strike over any issue related to education.

obviously this doesn't mean that we are all in favour of things like university fees - as evidenced by some teachers walking out in solidarity.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 2, 2016)

gaijingirl said:


> As far as I know most, if not all schools, will mark holidays during term time as unauthorised - because they won't/can't authorise them.  Certainly in my time teaching there has been a massive change towards that.  I teach many children whose parents request long periods off to take them back to their parents' home country - usually the Carribean or similarly long-haul.  They used to be allowed to go when I first started teaching but not anymore. When it comes to short periods off most people lie - or I have heard that some people work out that the amount they will pay in fines is offset by the savings they make by taking the holiday during term time.
> 
> I was very honest with my daughter's school about a one day absence being due to going away on the Friday.  I spoke to a senior member of staff (I'm a bad liar) and he told me to call in sick.



Yes, seems to be an absolute rule now - and then down to the headteacher as to whether they then fine or not. I get why they do with the pressure applied to schools to reach targets on attendance etc but it does seem a bit pointless not to have some discretion when parents _will_ just lie otherwise.


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2016)

This is terrifying:


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 2, 2016)

trashpony said:


> This is terrifying:


I know one of them!  Blue glasses who calls it "very bizarre" 

But yes, on a more serious note it's horrible to think what it will be doing children.


----------



## gaijingirl (May 2, 2016)

I looked at the tests a while ago and I will come clean and say that even though I teach grammar (albeit "foreign" grammar) there were terms there I didn't know.  I can work out what they mean but I've never really seen them used.  Despite this, my students and I have managed to get A* results in some of the hardest language GCSEs out there.

Plus when they come into secondary we re-test them anyway and use that data as our baseline.  There are so many things about these tests that are wrong wrong wrong.  I've already seen letters from local schools cancelling children's break times so they can study harder for these tests.  WTF!


----------



## Judelo (May 2, 2016)

redchris said:


> Which is why I think some unified action by parents ans teachers together which leaves the kids out of it is the best way forward.


Or unified with all three


----------



## Judelo (May 2, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Since the main social function of schools is to provide state-funded childcare so adults can work


Had never thought of it like that; only the brain/character killing/washing and the whole training to be a cog in the machine etc.


----------



## Judelo (May 3, 2016)

I don't have kids but best wishes to everyone today


----------



## spirals (May 3, 2016)

Boy child is doing key stage 2 sats, he was in a terrible state about them over the weekend, he even cried  If he was with us full time he wouldn't be doing them! (I don't think people whose kids sit them are monsters or owt just to make it clear!) We did a couple of practise papers with him and they were impossibly hard. Mr s had to goggle the answers and he's verging on genius levels of smart


----------



## redchris (May 3, 2016)

spirals said:


> Boy child is doing key stage 2 sats, he was in a terrible state about them over the weekend, he even cried  If he was with us full time he wouldn't be doing them! (I don't think people whose kids sit them are monsters or owt just to make it clear!) We did a couple of practise papers with them and they were impossibly hard. Mr s had to goggle the answers and he's verging on genius levels of smart



The tests are incredibly difficult. The majority of adults would fail to score 100% in them.  I listened to some Tory chump on r4 this morning agreeing with this and making the point that the increased difficulty in curriculum is an effort to raise standards and catch up with other countries who are achieving higher educational grades than the UK. Listening to the CEO of our Shanghai office describe the regime that his children suffer in order to achieve, I'll happily let my 6yo achieve lower grades than his Chinese counterparts. I always considered myself a traditionalist when it came to education and do believe that learning grammar is important and a key reason why us Brits always struggle to learn foreign languages, but as with everything in life is all about finding the right balance. The government's obsession with exam testing is ludicrous but exactly the sort of pigheadedness I would expect from them.


----------



## trashpony (May 3, 2016)

spirals said:


> Boy child is doing key stage 2 sats, he was in a terrible state about them over the weekend, he even cried  If he was with us full time he wouldn't be doing them! (I don't think people whose kids sit them are monsters or owt just to make it clear!) We did a couple of practise papers with him and they were impossibly hard. Mr s had to goggle the answers and he's verging on genius levels of smart


How do you get out of your kids taking them if they're at state school? 

We've done some maths and now we're doing English. It's much faster 1-2-1!


----------



## eoin_k (May 3, 2016)

Thora said:


> ...
> The idea of using fake words is that they are going to be words that the child won't recognise.  If you want to find out if a 6yo knows what sound igh represents, you can do that by asking them to read "kighl" because asking them to read "night" might just tell you they recognise the word night.



This seems to point to the limitations of using phonics to teach a language that isn't particularly phonetic.

There is a reasonable chance that at least one of my kids will be dyslexic, like their mum and a few other people in her family. Now, if they can keep up with spelling real words that you would expect of a child of their age, why set them the frankly pointless challenge of spelling made up ones? Different people learn to spell differently: most people find the mechanics of spelling out new words relatively easy while others rely more on visual memory and developing a wide vocabulary.

Obviously, a positive reason for testing could be that it provides a chance to identify who might be struggling because of conditions such as dyslexia and so make a positive intervention, but nobody seems inclined to diagnose dyslexia at this age, as a lot of the symptoms are a normal part of child development.

Maybe a test with made up words could be a useful diagnostic tool and it might even make sense to offer it more widely, like the tests for colour blindness in a school medical. But including it in SATs is as arbitrary as trying to quantify how colour blind some kids are as part of such a general assessment - never mind the coping strategy they might have developed to deal with a poly-chromatic world.

I'm not trying to suggest that phonics doesn't help a lot of kids to learn to read and write, but that is all it does. If anything needs to be tested (i.e. for formative purposes), it should be how well the child can use actual words rather than this Kafkaesque nonsense.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

.


----------



## Thora (May 3, 2016)

The phonics check isn't part of SATS, it happens in year 1.


----------



## eoin_k (May 3, 2016)

Fair enough


----------



## trashpony (May 4, 2016)

Well, the school head came over to me at the gate this morning, thanked me for my letter and my support for teachers. She is furious at the government ignoring head teachers' recommendations and that they blame schools for not making the SATs fun and causing children to feel stressed. 

As predicted, Elliot was absolutely _crowing_ at having had the day off on the way to school


----------



## Sweet FA (May 4, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Fair enough


When they take the test doesn't negate the content of your post; many, many teachers would agree with you.


----------



## eoin_k (May 4, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> When they take the test doesn't negate the content of your post; many, many teachers would agree with you.



Thanks for the sentiment, but it does undermines the bit of my point about it being included in SATs. I was also trying to make placatory noises to Thora  because I realised that some of the bile in my previous post could have come across as directed at her, which wasn't my intention, rather than at the direction that the education system is headed, on which I imagine we might agree on the whole.


----------



## stuff_it (May 4, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> Hence the bizarre situation of walking into a Y1/2 class to see children being 'taught' words that don't exist... Christ, saying to a Y4/5 yo ,'is 'glerg' a real word?' 'Erm in my limited experience of all the words there are, can I say possibly?'


Youse is well glerg, dan.




Rutita1 said:


> Heads must decide how to record ‘protest’ pupil absences on May 3


Citizenship field trip, obvs.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 18, 2016)

Brighton parents - City’s school term proposals aim to help families | Brighton & Hove City Council

Probably deserves it's own thread Nationwide tbf, as it's on no way related to the OP @self


----------

